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<BODY><XMP>From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 00:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jul 31 23:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <a6.29f91dee.2a7a2a7a@aol.com>

 >> Fighter crews, sent out in the manner that the original post
 >> specified, will know otherwise--that there's little chance they as
 >> individuals will make any difference at all, and that they're almost
 >> certainly going to die uselessly.
 >
 >You keep saying that, but the original post did not.  It stated that
 >100 fighters for 1 capital ship may be worth it.  What it _didn't_
 >state was how large the attacking force of fighters is.  Sure, it
 >could be 100--but it could also be 1,000.

Always appreciate having my memory challenged.  The original post from packet 
#832 was as follows:

>For HG style fights, I added a "visual range" range band.  
>You have to spend at least one turn at short range before 
>closing to visual (essentially, you have to win initiative 
>twice).  At visual range, weapons automatically hit without a 
>roll.  Sand becomes a weapon similar to a plasma gun at 
>visual.  Note that if there are more fighters attacking than 
>there are defensive batteries at visual range, something is 
>going to get through.  So I added a single autocritical 
>regardless of armor or ship size for any nuclear weapons that 
>get through.  And to make that interesting, I set a limit as 
>to how many warheads a damper can try and stop - one per 
>factor.
>
>Suddenly, the small, cheap fighter with a nuclear missile and 
>a laser, being flown by a human with a mediocre computer 
>becomes a possibility in navies that are willing to put up 
>with the losses - a few hundred fighter pilots in trade for a 
>major capital ship.

This tactic is presented not as a desperation move, but an ordinary one to be 
implemented if said navy can put up with it.  To which I responded that no 
fighter pilot community would tolerate it.  Even if the attacking squadron is 
originally 1000, after two capital ships they'll be combat ineffective using 
this tactic, and there will be NO volunteers to replace them until the tactic 
is discarded.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 00:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jul 31 23:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <e6.2be0ca41.2a7a3051@aol.com>

 >When I was stationed at Ft. Campbell, we had numerous 
 >nighttime helicopter accidents, usually involving more than 
 >one helicopter at once, and usually killing the passengers 
 >(we infantrymen) in decidedly horrific fashion.  I remember 
 >taking someone's entrails out of a tree.  But we didn't stop 
 >riding in helicopters, nor did we have mutinous discussions 
 >about how we would stop riding until they stopped flying 
 >between the trees at night.

You would have if 90 out of 100 crashed between breakfast and lunch.

Look, I appreciate what you're saying, and I understand the drive to climb 
that ladder, and I understand service to country.  But there is a big 
difference between what you are saying and what was implied in the original 
post.  People take up being paratroops or rangers even though they know the 
job is potentially hazardous because they know it is not always and forever 
hazardous.  These same people would NOT take up such a job if they were told, 
"Each and every time we send you out the vast majority of you are not coming 
back."  Who would lead such people?  Who would train them?  There would be no 
survivors left to do so.  I'll say again regarding the original post:  any 
pack of pilots that would volunteer to die by the hundreds to kill one 
capital ship as a regular ordinary tactic will all be at level 0.  There will 
be no experienced person to train or lead them.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 00:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jul 31 23:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <19e.638001c.2a7a328e@aol.com>

 >Just turning to the first page of world listings in GT:Rim of Fire, I
 >see that Darrukesh has 8.2 billion sophonts.  Note that a capital ship
 >can in theory do quite a handy job on a planet's surface, if desired.
 >Now, as Grand Admiral of the Darrukesh fleet, would you expend
 >1.22e-6% of your world's population to prevent that from occuring?

You are discussing survival situations.  The original post concerned an 
ordinary standard tactic to be employed every time "if the navy can tolerate 
the losses".
They won't.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 00:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jul 31 23:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <ac.2b2232c0.2a7a3323@aol.com>

 >>tcs neglects the most important fleet construction factor of all.
 >>go back to tcs and re-read the rules.
 >
 >Tell you what - you go _play_ some hg/tcs, then come back and
 >talk about people reading tcs.

Sure.  I'll play you -- if you can handle it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 00:48:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jul 31 23:48:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <27.2b4e7fcb.2a7a338a@aol.com>

 >Rock, Paper, Scissors.  Your calculations don't go far enough.

Could be.  Let's find out.  Show me.  Can you handle it?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 00:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jul 31 23:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <12e.1530f6bf.2a7a34a4@aol.com>

 >>by the way, just what is orbital bombardment and why does
 >>it require some special ship?
 >
 >It may require less (or different) capability than that
 >required to stand against a major capital ship.  If I can
 >make two or three ships minimally suited to orbital
 >fire-support missions for every one of your jack-of-all
 >trades dreadnaughts, then I can run two or three times as
 >many ground assault operations at the same time as you can.

Tonnages!  I want tonnages!  And I want to know every reason why you put in 
what you did and left out what you did.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 00:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jul 31 23:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <196.abe40d6.2a7a3514@aol.com>

 >>  between nukes and meson guns, what else could anyone want?
 >
 >They might want more choices besides Dreadnaughts.

Show me your choices.  I'd love to see 'em.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 01:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 00:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <12d.1506ac4f.2a7a379b@aol.com>

 >>there is one other defense you're forgetting. (against meson guns)
 >
 >Agility?  It reduces hits, doesn't block damage from them.
 >Or are you talking about something from the "house
 >rules" you've been talking from all along, instead of
 >the rules everyone else has been using?

Neither, actually.  Oh, and I would really like to hear your specific 
objections to each specific house rule.  I really do want to hear from your 
superior wisdom.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 01:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 00:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <f3.1ed9f0cb.2a7a396a@aol.com>

 >> >Your super-dreadnaught is one "Fuel Tanks Shattered"
 >> >hit away from being dead in space, no matter how buff
 >> >you make it - and there are Cruisers (or packs
 >> >of them) that can deal such damage to it.
 >>
 >>wow.
 >
 >Yes, wow.  High-tech societies should be very, very careful
 >about their reasons for getting mad enough to smack major
 >fleet elements into each other.  Even the winner is probably
 >going to bleed white.

Unreserved agreement here.  Oh wise teacher, I seek experience, unworthy as I 
am.  My poor virgin Spinward Marches Colonial Fleet awaits.  Battle me!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 01:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 00:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <9a.295bcf54.2a7a3abb@aol.com>

 >the best, and I mean the best, adventures are those that 
 >are "two party" adventures - one party of players against 
 >another.  The referee can never buy or write a one-party 
 >adventure that is as tense, hilarious, or as emotional as 
 >a "two party".
 >
 >Especially if the people in both parties know each other as 
 >gamers.  The referee doesn't have to do all of the thinking 
 >for one side anymore.

(mental eyes opening wide as possibilities come into view)  Now that _is_ a 
good idea.  Has this been around for a while and I've missed it, or is it 
something your group came up with?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 01:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 00:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Acceptable losses
Message-ID: <10d.15a5705f.2a7a3b9c@aol.com>

 >Some people I know do *not* believe the casualty figures from 
 >WW I.  They insist that it's simply not possible.

England had the custom of entire villages and towns volunteering to form one 
entire unit, which would fight together.  Frequently they were all gunned 
down together, and an entire village or town would lose most of its young men 
all at once.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 01:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 00:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <8d.1bfa1383.2a7a4253@aol.com>

 >The point of my video game comment was to illustrate that it's not
 >unrealistic that fighter pilot skills might conceivably be learned from
 >games.  I still believe that to be the case; you've certainly not
 >demonstrated otherwise.

I can't.  You lack the experience I might appeal to to do so.  For that 
matter, so do I -- I'm not a pilot.  But I've seen what works and what 
doesn't in a military.  But you haven't even seen that.

Try contacting a real fighter pilot sometime.  Ask him if fighter pilot 
skills might be learned from sophisitcated games.  Ask your local recruiter 
-- maybe he has a pilot come in once in a while to help him recruit.  Or 
heck, you could even call a nearby AFB or naval base, contact the liaison, 
and ask to speak to a pilot for ten minutes or so.  But it would be better if 
you can look him in the eye as he talks to you.

 >> He will shuck and jive, pretend equipment failures, or run.  He most
 >> certainly won't volunteer for that sort of duty again.
 >
 >That's a pretty low opinion of a fellow officer

A fellow officer, he says!  They wouldn't be officers, they'd be cannon 
fodder.  And they'd know it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 01:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith Mormon minion of Arioch)
Date: Thu Aug  1 00:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <f3.1ed9f0cb.2a7a396a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000501c2392c$7b7b0800$6f7ba8c0@kenneith93j41k>

That is the whole argument of detant, that the cost would be too high if
both sides went to war.
ken

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comics
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you
http://www.geocities.com/J_Elric_Smith/Index.html
----- Original Message -----
From: <Flykiller@aol.com>
> Unreserved agreement here.  Oh wise teacher, I seek experience, unworthy
as I
> am.  My poor virgin Spinward Marches Colonial Fleet awaits.  Battle me!
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 01:56:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 00:56:27 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <bf.241eecb7.2a7a4368@aol.com>

 >>asking hundreds of them at a time to give up their lives all 
 >>at once, just to make a tactic work, in one segment of a 
 >>single battle, is not an insignificant outlay for THEM.  
 >>(push button) "go do this, guys."  (lights 
 >>flash) "ok."  it doesn't work that way.
 > 
 >See the battle of Midway.  The low level torpedo attack 
 >planes that sacrificed themselves to Japanese anti-aircraft 
 >fire so that the dive bombers would have a chance.

Yes, with a huge Japanese fleet threatening their homeland and only them 
standing between the yellow peril and their families.  It was not, however, a 
standard tactic, employed "because they'll tolerate it".

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 02:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 01:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <43.f41b3de.2a7a45aa@aol.com>

 >HMS Glow-worm ramming the Admiral Hipper comes to mind. The destroyer's 
 >mass
 >was literally the only thing that might hurt the cruiser, and if she wasn't
 >hurt then the convoy would be massacred. Her skipper knew his ship would
 >sink; he knew many (but probably not all) of his crew would die. But the
 >decision was made in the face of the enemy, for a clear goal - to save
 >hundreds of helpless merchant seamen. Would the crew have accepted an
 >Admiralty policy of "we're not giving you torpedoes. You're to close and
 >ram, then sink"? In desperate times, some people actually would. But, say,
 >in 1934? Nope.

Thanks.  I was beginning to think I was the only one here who thought this 
way.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 02:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Aug  1 01:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Ring
References: <20020801000225.15828.154.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D48ED45.AD92306F@earthlink.net>

Glenn M. Goffin reminded us:
> 
> From: "Mosaic Tapestry" <n2sami@attbi.com>
> To: "Traveller Mailing List" <tml@travellercentral.com>
> Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 23:10:18 -0700
> Organization: often equals Disorgainization
> Subject: [TML] Traveller Ring
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> This is the semi-occasional irregular announcement of the existence
> of
> the Traveller Ring. Available at:
> 
> http://www.ringsurf.com/netring?ring=traveller;action=info


Yessss, we wantss our preciousss! Must have preciousss!

Oh.

Sorry, wrong ring.

David S.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 02:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 01:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] [OT] comic book universe battles
Message-ID: <129.1523d6e2.2a7a48bb@aol.com>

 >> Actually, when I watched the movie last year in one of my film classes
 >> ("Film Genres 160: Science-Fiction Cinema"), I realized that it can be 
read
 >> as an argument _against_ the politics of Heinlein's books. Since the book
 >> seems to say, in effect, "A military dictatorship isn't necessarily that
 >> bad!",
 >
 >It seems to say that to some people. The rest of us sit there wondering
 >if they read the same book we did.

I read the book and saw the movie, and I didn't hear anything for or against 
the portrayed government type in either one.  They just portrayed it, and 
left it at that.  I think that evaluations of what the book and movie were 
trying to say are simply reflections of the viewers' own judgements, like an 
inkblot test.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 02:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 01:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
Message-ID: <cf.1abcc5f7.2a7a49d6@aol.com>

 >In Washington, D.C., the homicide department is in complete 
 >shambles.  I sometimes wonder if the powers that be intend 
 >for it to be so.  Cases are lost, forgotten, misplaced...

The department reflects the community that it polices.

You are aware of what Cincinatti is going through now?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 02:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 01:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Acceptable losses
Message-ID: <d5.1b14d150.2a7a5048@aol.com>

 >Great reply. But I think you ignored one area.

Only one?  I did better than I thought!

>While a lot of credit is given to soldiers fighting for some greater, nobler
>idea, studies have repeatedly pointed to the formation of small, tightly
>knit groups as the key to successful armies.  Men rarely risk death and
>dismemberment for higher ideals.

Yeah, I keep hearing this.  I believe it, but I can't see it.  I'm one of 
those who looks to the noble idea.  I know the other tribal/herd thing is out 
there, and I know what it is and how it works, but it's a complete blank spot 
to me personally.

>Many scholars have pointed to the effectiveness of veteran troops over green
>one by observing that these small unit bonds are much stronger between men
>who have shared the rigors of war, and it is that which makes them more
>effective and willing to go the 'extra mile'

I read somewhere that during the War Between the States the Northern armies 
would place new recruits in entirely new brigades, which made them unreliable 
at first, while the Southern armies would install their new recruits in 
established armies, which steadied their new recruits greatly.

Thanks.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 03:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Thu Aug  1 02:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] John Strain where have you gone?
In-Reply-To: <m3bs8ngokq.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPCELCELAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Hi John,

are you still here? The emails I sent to you regarding the graphics you want
to use have been bouncing. Something about invalid return address.

Could you try sending me another email

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 03:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 02:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Website Update
Message-ID: <b0.2a4c8aff.2a7a55c1@aol.com>

 Which works better for you?

personally I prefer having all the data next to the map, rather than having 
the map expand away from it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 03:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 02:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <158.11c679eb.2a7a5fd1@aol.com>

 >> too, in a capital ship only the bridge crew has any
 >> view of the slaughter taking place, and the captain 
 >>(assumedly an experienced and dedicated older 
 >> man) only has to control himself and them (they also
 >> being assumedly experienced and dedicated older 
 >> men).  
 >
 >Wrong, wrong, wrong.

echo.

>If half your friends get sucked
>out into space you know there screwed. Sure you might
>think only your section is being hit, but you are
>probably smarter than that.

well, usually by that time the ship is fried anyway.  mutiny all you want -- 
no-one will notice anymore.

>And whats with the all
>male bridge crew?

What's the matter?  You don't like guys?

>Today many western navies are
>getting more female sailors

Yeah, I've seen 'em.  True story:  two female reservists on the gallery deck, 
looking lost and bored and a little nervous.  One of 'em suddenly brightens, 
turns to the other and says, "Let's go to the ship's mall!"  The other lights 
up with happiness and they head for the ladder down to the store.  It was 
almost more than I could take.

>and Trav is supposed to
>be a non-sexist universe!

Traveller is fantasy.

>All he has to do is launch his missiles and run! He is
>only one ship of many. The odds are probably in favor
>of him surviving. It wasn't in the original post that
>casualties among the fighters has high.

Yes it was.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 03:57:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug  1 02:57:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <196.abe40d6.2a7a3514@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002601c23943$4e0f1ac0$6e09bd50@martinjd>

>  >They might want more choices besides Dreadnaughts.
>
> Show me your choices.  I'd love to see 'em.

Low-end ships so you can do all your jobs within your budget maybe? Patrol
ships and tankers and whatever you plan to escort the talkers with. The USN,
for example, has other ships than carriers or attack subs (whichever you
consider to be the capital ship). Most navies have some high-end combat
ships and low-end workhorses.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 04:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug  1 03:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <8d.1bfa1383.2a7a4253@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003b01c23943$a8f1b4c0$6e09bd50@martinjd>



> >The point of my video game comment was to illustrate that it's not
>  >unrealistic that fighter pilot skills might conceivably be learned from
>  >games.  I still believe that to be the case; you've certainly not
>  >demonstrated otherwise.
>
> I can't.  You lack the experience I might appeal to to do so.  For that
> matter, so do I -- I'm not a pilot.  But I've seen what works and what
> doesn't in a military.  But you haven't even seen that.

I play Tekken against my training partner quite a lot. But you know? We get
out fighting skills from hitting one another for real. Pushing buttons just
doesn't give the feedback. Or the blood and snot.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 04:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 03:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] juries
Message-ID: <108.15a4adbc.2a7a6208@aol.com>

 >I've got to say that I have very little confidence in the present U.S. legal
 >system. I don't mean in a political way. I just don't think that an
 >adversarial system is all that good for determining guilt.

It's about as good as you'll get.

>Amateur juries
>seem to me to be ill equipped to handle many kinds of cases.

True.  And irrelevant to why they exist.  Juries aren't meant to be 
professional, quite the opposite.  Juries are meant to be a last and final 
check and balance against governmental power over individual citizens.  The 
government can't put anyone in jail unless they can get a bunch of amateur 
citizens to agree.  It's preferable to the alternative.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 04:08:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug  1 03:08:04 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <19e.638001c.2a7a328e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <005201c23944$b5f3ac40$6e09bd50@martinjd>



> >Just turning to the first page of world listings in GT:Rim of Fire, I
>  >see that Darrukesh has 8.2 billion sophonts.  Note that a capital ship
>  >can in theory do quite a handy job on a planet's surface, if desired.
>  >Now, as Grand Admiral of the Darrukesh fleet, would you expend
>  >1.22e-6% of your world's population to prevent that from occuring?
>
> You are discussing survival situations.  The original post concerned an
> ordinary standard tactic to be employed every time "if the navy can
tolerate
> the losses".
> They won't.

Damn right they won't. I chaired this year's Naval Force Protection
convention at the Hatton. One of the speakers was demonstrating BULLFIGHTER,
an advanced decoy system. One point he made was that this system makes more
missiles miss your ship, but often by a smaller margin than older offboard
countermeasures. This was considered entirely acceptable, despite the
(small)  risk that a decoyed missile might still hit another part of the
ship - by accident.

In the cold analysis of the conference room, the assembled personnel (from a
rear-admiral down) agreed that a greater proportion of missiles decoyed was
a very good thing because, as someone put it: surviving to carry out your
mission is necessary. Surviving to do it again is good. But surviving to go
home and collect the medals is what every sailor wants. And he wants to KNOW
that measures have been taken to ensure he will. In almost all situations,
force survivability is necessary to morale.

IE Units will NOT enter routine combat situations where they know they will
be massacred.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 04:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug  1 03:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <193.ac0a39b.2a7a20cf@aol.com>
Message-ID: <007201c23945$6b27eae0$6e09bd50@martinjd>

> >Try the loss rates for some of the RAF's 1000 bomber night attacks,
>  >then. Over 100 bombers in a night wasn't exceptional (IIRC some were
>  >near the 200 mark) and while that rate was unsustainable it wasn't for
>  >lack of volunteers, but because aircraft take time to make and crews
>  >take time to train.
>
> Imminent threats to national survival, of course, change casualty rate
> acceptance.  But the original subject was hundreds of fighter pilots for
the
> one or two lucky shots to kill a capital ship as a standard by-the-book
> tactic.  Never happen.

Besides, bomber crews did so many missions and then OUT. Your odds of
getting killed on any one of those missions were relatively small, but they
stacked up. However, you *knew* you'd probably get out before your number
came up. Whether it was true or not is another matter, but you knew.... if
the odds had been 50% chance of death per mission, and you'll keep on being
sent in again and again, well...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 04:21:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 03:21:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Acceptable losses
Message-ID: <18e.baee50e.2a7a654a@aol.com>

 >I think the idea is to look at new weapons and technology with the idea that
 >standard concepts from the last well may no longer apply.  Certainly, it is
 >impossible to anticipate change.

It is if you are the one driving it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 04:22:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 03:22:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
In-Reply-To: <20020731190152.7587.68152.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020731190152.7587.68152.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <mh2ikusl9irreg7c1m598n5h868l8saqmo@4ax.com>

On Wed, 31 Jul 2002 12:01:52 -0700, "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
wrote:

>WriteFool says

>>From the standpoint of pure economic and management 
>>efficiency I would have to agree, but on the other hand by 
>>creating the traditions and institutional memory of never 
>>giving up on a case and instilling that in to each 
>>generation of policefolk, it might help foster a certain 
>>determination as well as giving some comfort to victims' 
>>families that everything can and will be done and 
>>their losses and justice will not be forgotten.

>I would imagine that such perseverance, or lack thereof, 
>varies from planet to planet across the Imperium.  While they 
>might do things like this on, say, Regina, who can say how 
>they run things - even at the Imperial capital.

>In Washington, D.C., the homicide department is in complete 
>shambles.  I sometimes wonder if the powers that be intend 
>for it to be so.  Cases are lost, forgotten, misplaced...

>And the coroner's office is a complete joke.  It's a sore 
>point for the residents, but nothing, I repeat, nothing has 
>been done to remedy the situation.  

It would be unprofessional of me to comment on how the City of Washington
has mismanaged its police force - and in fact most municipal agencies - by
placing political correctness above professionalism and qualification, so I
will not make any such comments - including not commenting on how a
Washington police officer can be hired with felony convictions on his/her
record, provided that none were more recent than ten years ago at the time
of application.

Nor will I criticize the voters of that city for being stupid enough to
re-elect as mayor a convicted drug dealer, and then expect the tone of the
city to be anything other than what it is.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 05:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 04:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <20020801043903.8532.97422.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020801043903.8532.97422.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <av4ikugatpklat65etuddk08afchu3ve4e@4ax.com>

On Wed, 31 Jul 2002 21:39:03 -0700, "Paul Kerby" <ybrekp@mtco.com> wrote:

>Painted on the wall of the mess hall of the mess hall of the 2nd Armored
>Division(FWD) in Garlstedt Germany...

>"The purpose of the American soldier is not to die for his country, but
>to make the other bastards die for his."  George S. Patton 

And Patton got it wrong, at that - the purpose of the American soldier is
to _severely_maim_ the other bastards.  If you kill him, they can just
leave the body until it's safe to come get it and give it a burial.

If you just maim him, they have to devote manpower and resources to getting
him out of the line of fire, and trying to put him back together.  Which
means less that they can throw at you.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 05:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  1 04:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <200208011139.LVF00463@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>From: Flykiller@aol.com  
>Subject: Re: [TML] sword vs shotgun  
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
> >the best, and I mean the best, adventures are those that 
> >are "two party" adventures - one party of players against 
> >another.  The referee can never buy or write a one-party 
> >adventure that is as tense, hilarious, or as emotional as 
> >a "two party".
> >
> >Especially if the people in both parties know each other 
as 
> >gamers.  The referee doesn't have to do all of the 
thinking 
> >for one side anymore.
>
>(mental eyes opening wide as possibilities come into view)  
Now that _is_ a 
>good idea.  Has this been around for a while and I've missed 
it, or is it 
>something your group came up with?

It's an old idea.  And, it's a very good way to deal with 
those in the playing group who want to be sociopaths.  The 
referee doesn't have to kill them - the other party can try 
their best.  In my case, however, it came out even more often 
than not - being the "good" party doesn't make you 
bulletproof.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 05:45:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Thu Aug  1 04:45:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Website Update
Message-ID: <memo.512928@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <959hkuk7om6pvavlofnoevvto9cvuejv20@4ax.com>
Greetings dear hearts, especially Eris.

It's quite nice. The main sub-sector charts come out nicely, on a 17" 
monitor, might wrap awkwardly on a smaller one.

Devonia - overflows sideways - this seems to be due to the main table 
being set at width="123%" quite unnecessarily. The cells inside are set to 
a total of 100%, and the actual size of the image used would fit (at least 
on the 17" monitor).

You also might want to check the 'Body' tag, put in some elements to 
control colours, etc. Adding in that background from the sub-sector pages 
would be nice too.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 05:46:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  1 04:46:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <200208011145.LVF00804@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Flykiller says
>Yeah, I've seen 'em.  True story:  two female reservists on 
>the gallery deck, looking lost and bored and a little 
>nervous.  One of 'em suddenly brightens, turns to the other 
>and says, "Let's go to the ship's mall!"  The other lights 
>up with happiness and they head for the ladder down to the 
>store.  It was almost more than I could take.
>

I remember doing OPFOR against a Pershing missile platoon.  I 
distinctly remember a 6 foot female soldier and her shorter 
female AG running UP a 400 ft hill with an M-60 to try and 
get around on my left.  Fast, and with some sense of what she 
was doing.  I couldn't get a clear sight picture, and as I 
estimated she was reaching the top of the hill off to my 
left, I displaced, along with my friends.

Turns out she was from the motor pool.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 05:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Thu Aug  1 04:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Kit (as our British friends say)
In-Reply-To: <d4.1b055146.2a7a030a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020801115445.5089.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>

--- GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> 
> One of my favorite bits of reading is a papyrus
> detailing the pay record of a 
> Roman soldier in Egypt ca. 250 AD There are
> deductions for uniform and 
> equipment, mandatory deposit to the unit savings
> bank, contributions to the 
> burial fund (insurance) and the unit Saturnalia
> feast (held around the same 
> time as Christmas), and stoppages to pay for a wine
> bar demolished in the 
> course of a brawl. Every soldier I have ever shown
> it to marvels at the line 
> on the bottom:
> 
> "Copy 2 of 3, for unit archives"
> 
> LKW
> 
  >>
  OMG!!!!! The, the, the......[sigh]......

    MACessna
  >>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 05:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 04:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <1742d8175093.1750931742d8@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 11:41 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] warship optimization in traveller

> From: Flykiller@aol.com
> 
>     "All ships have a large internal cargo capacity enabling them 
> to 
> operate unsupported for up to 10 months.  In addition each fleet task
> force has accompanying supply vessels (with cargo sufficient to 
> completely 
> restock each vessel including themselves),..."
> 
> 
> Sir,
> 
>     What supply rules are you using and where did you find them?
> 
>     "...hospital ships,..."
> 
>     How do you design hospital ships?  How much does a surgical 
> suite 
> displace and how many do you need?  What about ICU berths?  How 
> much in 
> specialized stores will these ships need?

For JTAS subscribers, the recently-completed starship design contest 
(Contest #10) had some excellent hospital ships, albeit mostly using 
design sequences other than HG2.  Note, though, that the winning design 
(not mine, sad to say) was built using HG2.

<<snip>>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 06:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Houghton)
Date: Thu Aug  1 05:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
In-Reply-To: <mh2ikusl9irreg7c1m598n5h868l8saqmo@4ax.com>
References: <20020731190152.7587.68152.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <mh2ikusl9irreg7c1m598n5h868l8saqmo@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020801120705.GA5092@saltmine.radix.net>

Howdy!

On Thu, Aug 01, 2002 at 06:20:46AM -0400, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Jul 2002 12:01:52 -0700, "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
> wrote:
[snip]
> 
> >And the coroner's office is a complete joke.  It's a sore 
> >point for the residents, but nothing, I repeat, nothing has 
> >been done to remedy the situation.  
> 
> It would be unprofessional of me to comment on how the City of Washington
> has mismanaged its police force - and in fact most municipal agencies - by
> placing political correctness above professionalism and qualification, so I
> will not make any such comments - including not commenting on how a
> Washington police officer can be hired with felony convictions on his/her
> record, provided that none were more recent than ten years ago at the time
> of application.

Of course, since I do not work for a police department, there is no
professional courtesy to impede me from agreeing wholeheartedly.
> 
> Nor will I criticize the voters of that city for being stupid enough to
> re-elect as mayor a convicted drug dealer, and then expect the tone of the
> city to be anything other than what it is.
> 

Actually, Barry was not convicted of dealing, just possession ('Bitch
set me up!').

...and then have a mayor who can't manage to have competent and honest
people gather 2500 _valid_ signatures of _real residents_ to get his 
name on the primary ballot...

I may have the governmental entities wrong, but the entity that certified
the petitions to (I think) the board of elections (or whatever they call
it) said that hizonner had enough signatures even after they had tossed
a bunch of petitions for fraud (with about 10000 signatures presented).
The board refused to accept that certification because of the great
number of the remainder that were (ostensibly) gathered by the Bishops,
who each were noted to have provided a large number of the petitions 
that had been tossed for fraudulent signatures. Now hizonner is almost
certain to be stuck running a write-in campaign for the primary.

I'll note that that at the same time DC was reelecting a druggie, the
Virginia GOP was trying to get a liar and oathbreaker elected to the
senate (Ollie North, found guilty by a jury of his peers of a felony --
lying to Congress), and the voters in Maryland rejected a bid by a
convicted former state assemblyman for reelection.

obTrav: well...a political campaign anywhere would be livened up by
a little controversy...or a politician running for reelection from his
jail cell... 

yours,
Michael
-- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 06:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Brian Caball)
Date: Thu Aug  1 05:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Kit (as our British friends say)
In-Reply-To: <20020801115445.5089.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020801115445.5089.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <02080113001703.22132@avlendris>

> > "Copy 2 of 3, for unit archives"
>   OMG!!!!! The, the, the......[sigh]......

This seems to be flying right over my head... is that what the modern 
equivalents also say or something?

-Brian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 06:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Thu Aug  1 05:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <F63cEcLsXJB7oDaSeXn000225a2@hotmail.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote, in many posts:
>You are discussing survival situations.  The original post
>concerned an ordinary standard tactic to be employed every time
>"if the navy can tolerate the losses". They won't.

What's the difference, considering what a starfleet can
do, between "ordinary" situations and "survival" situations?
If two main fleets are banging heads for real, there *will*
be planetary populations (the ownership of, if not the lives
of) at stake.

>Sure.  I'll play you -- if you can handle it.

This is a paper-and-pencil *game* we are talking about.
"Handling it" is just a matter of whether I choose to play
or not.  This ain't full-contact team biathalon here.

>  >Rock, Paper, Scissors.  Your calculations don't go far enough.
>
>Could be.  Let's find out.  Show me.  Can you handle it?

It amuses me far more to watch you beg.

>Tonnages!  I want tonnages!  And I want to know every reason
>why you put in what you did and left out what you did.

Like this, for example.

>Show me your choices.  I'd love to see 'em.

My choice is to let someone else put up with you during
your education.

>I really do want to hear from your superior wisdom.

My "superior wisdom" tells me to sit back and chuckle at
you for a while.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 06:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 05:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
Message-ID: <20020801123223.5AA10451A@mo130uhou.palm.net>

Rob Davenport <rgd@infinet.com> wrote:
>	Ed Wood's "Starship Troopers" 

Kenji Schwartz gave a good rant compairing ST to an Ed Wood movie.
You can find it on my SciFi sig quote page. 


>-- 
>Rob Davenport -- rgd at infinet dot com 
>More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases: 
> Spero nos familiares mansuros. 
> I hope we'll still be friends. 

----------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 07:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Thu Aug  1 06:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Warships
In-Reply-To: <15b.11cdff0f.2a79e836@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D49DB0E.15430.8A1F01@localhost>

On 31 Jul 2002, at 21:26, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> Very good, and I mostly agree.  But please post a tonnage allocation for such
> an interface combat ship.  I'd love to see what you mean by "designed for it"

Well here's one I knocked up quickly. Doubtless its far from optimal, but 
you'll get the idea.

Ship: Terror
Class: Erebus
Type: Bomb Ketch
Architect: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
Tech Level: 15

USP
         BK-H9059J3-L59005-55545-0 MCr 5,624.770 8 KTons
Bat Bear             1   1 15118   Crew: 110
Bat                  1   1 15118   TL: 15

Cargo: 170 Fuel: 720.000 EP: 720 Agility: 5 Shipboard Security Detail: 8 
Marines: 25 Drop Capsules: 140
Craft: 2 x 50T Cutters
Fuel Treatment: On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/9fib Computer 1 x Bridge 1 x Factor 9 Meson Screen

Architects Fee: MCr 56.048   Cost in Quantity: MCr 4,503.816


Detailed Description

HULL
8,000.000 tons standard, 112,000.000 cubic meters, Buffered Planetoid 
Configuration

CREW
15 Officers, 70 Ratings, 25 Marines

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 5G Manuever, Power plant-9, 720.000 EP, Agility 5

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/9fib Computer
1 Backup Bridge, 1 Model/9fib Backup Computer

HARDPOINTS
3 50-ton bays, 50 Hardpoints

ARMAMENT
1 50-ton Meson Bay (Factor-4), 1 50-ton Particle Accelerator Bay (Factor-
5), 40 Triple Missile Turrets organised into 8 Batteries (Factor-5), 3 Triple 
Beam Laser Turrets organised into 1 Battery (Factor-5), 5 Dual Fusion Gun 
Turrets organised into 5 Batteries (Factor-5)

DEFENCES
1 50-ton Repulsor Bay (Factor-5), 2 Triple Sandcaster Turrets organised 
into 1 Battery (Factor-5), Meson Screen (Factor-9), Armoured Hull (Factor-
20)
1 Meson Screen Backup (Factor-9)

CRAFT
2 50.000 ton Cutters (Crew of 1, Cost of MCr 10.000)

FUEL
720.000 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
No Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
58 Staterooms, 140 Drop Capsule Launchers, 170 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
1 Missile Magazine (100.000 tons, Crew 0, Cost MCr 10.000)

COST
MCr 5,660.818 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 56.048), MCr 4,483.816 
in Quantity, plus MCr 20.000 of Carried Craft

CONSTRUCTION TIME
156 Weeks Singly, 125 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
Important factors
1) Planetary assaults are planned and this ship is not intended for line of 
battle work therefore a rider is optimal, and endurance functions (eg 
supplies, reloads etc) can be moved to the tender.
2) The buffered planetoid configuration allows sufficent armour to render the 
vessel immune to all but meson fire and gives good protection against 
meson fire
3) Since the ship is operating in orbit, minimal agility is acceptable
4) The jump capsules allow rapid evacuation and recovery by friendly 
vessels
5) Since the ships is immune to missile fire due to the heavy armour, 
nuclear dampers are unneccessary
6) The backup meson screen, computer and bridge extend the surviability
7) The primary armarment of missiles allows a wide range of deadfall 
weaponry
8) The single PA is for use against vacuum targets

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 07:07:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 06:07:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Published Trav Authors
Message-ID: <1b62a01b63e3.1b63e31b62a0@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 11:56 am
Subject: Re: [TML] Published Trav Authors

> At 12:21 PM 7/30/2002 +1000, you wrote:
> >Yahhhhhh! The Citizens of the Imperium website
> >accepted my patron encounter. So now I am being
> >published (online) by an official Trav lisencee. Where
> >do I send away for my offcial Trav Authors flying
> >scarf and tweed jacket set? ;P I can also get in all
> >the really classy bars! 
> 
> Go to the corner of Third and Main (doesn't matter in what city.)  
> Look for
> a man wearing a black "I Wished For GDSM And All I Got Was This 
> Lousy +3
> T-Shirt" Nethack shirt.  If he is eating pepperoni pizza, it is 
> safe to
> approach.  Say "I understand the penguins are wintering in St 
> Moritz."  He
> will say "No, it is to touristy.  They prefer Telluride."  Your 
> final sign
> will be to tug on your right earlobe and say "Penguins? I meant 
> the Royal
> Family. It is hard to tell them apart. Or maybe the Osbournes."

Hmmm.  They must have changed the recognition codes again.  At least, 
that's not the recognition sequence I was given after _101 
Corporations_ was published.  Sadly, I was mobilized for Sinai before I 
could be formally initiated.  Perhaps next year, ideally at BayCon 
(assuming I'm not mobilized yet again) :-(.

At least I won't have to take Greyhound from Baton Rouge for my next 
BayCon, since my Bosnia earnings allowed me to buy a used minivan and 
set it up as a one-man RV....
> 
> If this is carried out to the agent's satisfaction, you will be 
> drugged,blindfolded, and taken to the Traveller Writers' Secret 
> UndergroundHeadquarters.  There, you will be prepared for 
> initiation.  Please let the
> nice doctors know your blood type *before* the test of the Pit of 
> RabidWeasels and Equally Rabid Editors.

Ah, but that takes all the challenge out of it.

<<snip>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 07:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn Crawford)
Date: Thu Aug  1 06:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Starship Troopers
Message-ID: <F10888MMAv7Nf4086xB00003354@hotmail.com>

George Lucas' Starship Troopers

Wesa powah infantree gonna die?

Far be it from me to question your stupid civilisation or dumb customs...
S. Fry


_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 07:40:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Thu Aug  1 06:40:04 2002
Subject: N-dimensional law-levels (was Re: [TML] sword vs shotgun)
In-Reply-To: <200207311911.13195.red@archonet.com>
Message-ID: <000001c23961$00f0b0a0$6501a8c0@Darla>

DGP's World Builder's handbook detailed law levels into sub-levels for
Weapons, Trade, Criminal Law, Civil Law and Personal Freedom, which
seems like a reasonable breakdown.

Perhaps the TAS publications use weapons as the published law level so
travelers can have an idea about what they can strap up with before they
hit dirt...

TWB



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 09:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Aug  1 08:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <F137of0aYhHnKZ1nSIz0000ee76@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     The increasingly goofy warship optimization thread sent me off waddling 
the 'Net courtesy of Google.  A short search pulled up a few interesting 
facts regarding to times during WW2 in which aircraft, and their flight 
crews, were "traded" for warships.

Midway - We all know this story; torpedo squadrons pressing home futile 
attack after attack, drawing Japanese attention towards sea level and away 
from the arriving dive bombers in an unplanned, but wildly successful, 
tactic.
     The three squadrons involved flew Devastators, NOT Swordfish as earlier 
posted.  The incrediably elderly Swordfish biplane belonged the RAF's Fleet 
Air Arm (the RN couldn't design or "own" its embarked aircraft!  D'oh!).  
The USN's Devastators had been in service ~7 years and was an obselescent 
design too, although not as bad as the Swordfish(1).
     The three squadrons involved were; VT-3, flown from USS Yorktown, VT-6, 
flown from USS Enterprise, and VT-8 flown from USS Hornet.
     Losses are as follows:
VT-3, 10 of 12 aircraft, 20 of 24 men
VT-6, 10 of 14 aircraft, 20 of 28 men
VT-8, 15 of 15 aircraft, 29 of 30 men
     for a total of:
      35 aircraft and 69 men

     In "return", the USN sank three IJN carriers (before you squawk, please 
note the fourth IJN carrier lost was sunk later in the day and not during 
this specific airstrike).  Let's call it ~10 aircraft and ~20 men per 
warship destroyed.
     Midway was a special case; the IJN needed to be stopped, the USN was 
weak, Midway, Pearl, and ultimately the West Coast needed to be defended, so 
the Americans probably employed somewhat desperate tactics or weren't too 
squeamish about losses as long as the battle was won.
     Now let's look at a not so desperate situation.

The IJN Yamato - The USMC and USA are fighting on Okinawa and the USN is 
close offshore fighting too.  Kamikazes are making life rather difficult for 
the USN, but they're holding their own.  Then the largest kamikaze of them 
all is sent along, the Yamato.
     On 7 APR 1945, USN carriers send 400 aircraft at the Yamato to prevent 
her from arriving at Okinawa.  They lose 10 aircraft and 12 men sending her 
to the bottom, roughly comparable to the numbers it took to sink an IJN CV 
at Midway.  Was this "sacrifice" really necessary?  Would the Yamato have 
reached Okinawa and interfered with the fighting there?
     No.
     The USN had already pulled SIX BBs off the gunline, plus the usual 
assortment of escorting CAs and DDs, to tackle the Yamato if she made it 
through the airstrikes.  Yamato was going to be sunk one way or the other, 
either via massed airstrikes or an extremely one-sided surface engagement.
     So why did the USN "waste" 10 planes and 12 men to sink her, when the 
battleline could have done the job?  Because, the airstrikes were cheaper.  
The US casulties and damage incurred in a gun duel with the Yamato would 
have been far greater than 12 men and the costs of 10 planes.
     When the conditions are right and the options are limited, militaries 
will make these sort of trades all the time.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 09:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 08:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <e6.2be0ca41.2a7a3051@aol.com>
References: <e6.2be0ca41.2a7a3051@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3ptx2twnf.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
>
> But there is a big difference between what you are saying and what
> was implied in the original post.

There's a big difference between what you are inferring and what the
original post stated.  It simply stated, IIRC, that it might take 100
fighters to eliminate a capital ship.  It implied, again IIRC, nothing
about the size of the wave which would lose the 100.

> I'll say again regarding the original post: any pack of pilots that
> would volunteer to die by the hundreds to kill one capital ship as a
> regular ordinary tactic will all be at level 0.  There will be no
> experienced person to train or lead them.

I'll say again: it depends on the size of the wave.  How large were
the British waves in WWII when 100-200 a night were lost?  How large
might a Traveller wave be?  If it's 105, you may be right.  If it's
13,000 you're very probably wrong.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
With the Smart Ship's reputation so far, they will have to build a bloody
big trebuchet for the damn thing to be useful as a weapon.
                                         --Derry Hamilton

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:02:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:02:05 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <e6.2be0ca41.2a7a3051@aol.com>
References: <e6.2be0ca41.2a7a3051@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3ptx2twnf.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
>
> But there is a big difference between what you are saying and what
> was implied in the original post.

There's a big difference between what you are inferring and what the
original post stated.  It simply stated, IIRC, that it might take 100
fighters to eliminate a capital ship.  It implied, again IIRC, nothing
about the size of the wave which would lose the 100.

> I'll say again regarding the original post: any pack of pilots that
> would volunteer to die by the hundreds to kill one capital ship as a
> regular ordinary tactic will all be at level 0.  There will be no
> experienced person to train or lead them.

I'll say again: it depends on the size of the wave.  How large were
the British waves in WWII when 100-200 a night were lost?  How large
might a Traveller wave be?  If it's 105, you may be right.  If it's
13,000 you're very probably wrong.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
With the Smart Ship's reputation so far, they will have to build a bloody
big trebuchet for the damn thing to be useful as a weapon.
                                         --Derry Hamilton

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:02:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:02:39 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <bf.241eecb7.2a7a4368@aol.com>
References: <bf.241eecb7.2a7a4368@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3lm7qtwhm.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
> 
> Yes, with a huge Japanese fleet threatening their homeland and only
> them standing between the yellow peril and their families.  It was
> not, however, a standard tactic, employed "because they'll tolerate
> it".

You keep on making a distinction between `fighting for survival' and
`standard tactics.'  I get the impression that you view the Frontier
Wars as something like our involvement in Panama or Afghanistan (or
Nicaragua, Cuba, Vietnam, Korea &c.) and unlike our involvment in,
say, WWII.  I strenously disagree.  To an Imperial world, the thought
of being captured by the Zhodani is every bit as bad as being captured
by the Japanese was to a Hawaiian.  Sure, the fellows from the Vegan
polity might not care as much, but the soldiers, pilots &c. from the
worlds in question very much _would_.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I love the way Microsoft follows standards.  In much the same manner
that fish follow migrating caribou.                   --Paul Tomblin

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:03:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:03:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Starship Troopers
In-Reply-To: <F10888MMAv7Nf4086xB00003354@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020801154829.54251.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>

Then there's

Ernest Joins the Federation
  Starring Ernest P Whorrel as Johnny "Ernest" Rico

[shudder]


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:04:03 2002
Subject: Service Pay ( [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CC3@USCHM203>

>Robert Uhl wrote:

> "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> writes:
> Huh,  I thought that was only officers.  That just seems wrong to me
> (not that you're wrong; that they're wrong to do it that way).  Did
> y'all have to pay for your foods & cooks too?

Food was free, and I have to be honest, it was good food everywhere I was
stationed. Not restaurant quality, but better than the high school
cafeteria.


Tod L Glenn wrote:

>What service and when?  When I went through The Ft. Benning school for boys
>(Summer 1980), we were paid in cash monthly.  $600 dollars, as I recall.
>Accountable property was just that.  It was signed out to you, and you were
>expected to sign it back in.  Anything missing or damaged, you paid for.

Tod,
	USMC, 1986. Our pay was close to $800 a month. Never knew anyone who
lost a rifle, but people would lose web gear, canteens, and such. 
	Sometimes guys were tempted to "lose" some items just so they could
have them at home when they got out. NO WEAPONS!!! They don't just write
that off. There WILL be an investigation, and you'll get 20 years in
Leavenworth. Not only that, but any Marine, however good friends you are,
would dissuade you or turn you in. At least I hope they would.
	Mostly it was small stuff like web gear and magazine holders.
Perhaps a flak jacket or gas mask. As it is, you can pick all that stuff up
at surplus stores (though at a MUCH higher cost).
	I do know a guy from Spartanburg, SC who took home an empty Dragon
Tube, but it still had the end caps. Last I heard he mounted it above his
fireplace.
	For the record, they don't let you take used LAW tubes, spent brass,
or training grenades home. I tried to take some spent 40mm Grenade
cartridges home that we used as ashtrays, and they confiscated them at the
airport.

	ObTrav, imagine having your pay docked for an FGMP-15? Hope you
planned on staying in for 5 terms!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:04:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:04:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <8d.1bfa1383.2a7a4253@aol.com>
References: <8d.1bfa1383.2a7a4253@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3heietvzo.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
>
> > The point of my video game comment was to illustrate that it's not
> > unrealistic that fighter pilot skills might conceivably be learned
> > from games.  I still believe that to be the case; you've certainly
> > not demonstrated otherwise.
> 
> Try contacting a real fighter pilot sometime.  Ask him if fighter
> pilot skills might be learned from sophisticated games.

Sure, not now: a video game, even a military simulator, is simply not
possible of fully-simulating flight, combat &c.  But thousands of
years in the future that's not an issue.  If you can damp inertia and
fake gravity, you can fake the motions and sensations of combat.  If
you can broadcast in 3D, you can generate a photo-realistic world
outside the phony cockpit windows.  The only thing you _cannot_
simulate is the fear of death--and real military training cannot AFAIK
do that either; only actual flight time can do that.

> Ask your local recruiter--maybe he has a pilot come in once in a
> while to help him recruit.  Or heck, you could even call a nearby
> AFB or naval base, contact the liaison, and ask to speak to a pilot
> for ten minutes or so.  But it would be better if you can look him
> in the eye as he talks to you.

You seem to think that I am foolish enough to believe that a modern
video game can teach flight skills.  I'm not: I'm writing about
`games' thousands of years in the future.

How about you do the reverse: go to a computer scientist or computer
engineer.  Ask him if, assuming inertial damping, artifical gravity
and photo-realistic three-dimension and two thousand years of Moore's
Law, computers will be able to completely simulate a flight and
combat.  Look him in the eye when you do so.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
My word processor was written by Stanford Professor Donald Knuth.  Who
wrote yours?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:05:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:05:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <F228Wv2vyWb6cxHKx7000010140@hotmail.com>

     "...although not as bad as the Swordfish(1)."


Ladies and Gentlemen,

     Please excuse me, I forgot to add the footnote.


(1) - The Swordfishs' very obs0lescence may have actually helped it survive 
in battle.  A most likely apophrycal story from the Bismarck saga has the 
German AA fire missing the attacking Swordfish because the aircraft were 
moving too SLOW, the AA crews led their targets by too much.  Swordfish made 
their torpedo runs at ~90 mph and weather conditions could drop that speed 
even further.
     The Swordfish may been viwed as a joke by other navies, it still got 
the job done at Taranto and with the Bismarck however.


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:05:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:05:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <003b01c23943$a8f1b4c0$6e09bd50@martinjd>
References: <8d.1bfa1383.2a7a4253@aol.com>
 <003b01c23943$a8f1b4c0$6e09bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <m3d6t2tvro.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> writes:
> 
> I play Tekken against my training partner quite a lot.  But you
> know?  We get out fighting skills from hitting one another for real.
> Pushing buttons just doesn't give the feedback.  Or the blood and
> snot.

Piloting is not fighting--it's driving a vehicle.  Given a real
cockpit with the controls connected to a computer, given a
photorealistic 3D display, given inertia simulators and artificial
gravity (same thing?  I dunno.), given a computer roughly
6.14250342873998e234 as powerful as a modern August 2002 computer, you
_could_ accurately simulate a flight, and accurately simulate
anti-aircraft measures, and accurately simulate birds, and accurately
simulate explosions nearby (and far away, for that matter), and
accurately simulate weather, and accurately simulate the stresses of
flying &c. &c. &c.

The only reasonable objections are that inertial simulation and
artificial grav are impossible, that photorealistic 3D displays are
impossible or that Moore's Law will not hold up for two thousand
years.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Contrary to popular opinion there often is a right answer.
            --Carter & Sanger, Thinking about Programming

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:06:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:06:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <000501c2392c$7b7b0800$6f7ba8c0@kenneith93j41k>
References: <f3.1ed9f0cb.2a7a396a@aol.com>
 <000501c2392c$7b7b0800$6f7ba8c0@kenneith93j41k>
Message-ID: <m38z3qtvlw.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Joseph Elric Smith Mormon minion of Arioch" <kruch7@cox.net> writes:
>
> That is the whole argument of detant, that the cost would be too
> high if both sides went to war.

Which doesn't work, if one side has a significantly different cost
model than the other.  Acc. to my father, the Russians were never
nearly as worried about nuclear war as we were.  The reason?  They can
march to Europe.

Note I don't say they were unworried; simply that the leadership did
not view it as the completely and utterly unmitigated disaster that
ours did.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`How do you explain bikini underwear and chocolate 
 sprinkles pressed between pages 102 and 103 of the 
 Canterbury Tales?  It must have been quite an evening.'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:06:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:06:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CC5@USCHM203>

James Ramsay wrote:
 Re:"but a fighter pilot is the entire crew" 

>All he has to do is launch his missiles and run! He is
>only one ship of many. The odds are probably in favor
>of him surviving.

	I don't know if my logic was unsound, but this is one of the reasons
I signed up for infantry rather than armor or even the air wing. And why I
never wanted to be on a ship (let alone a sub).
As deadly as it is for infantry during a battle, being one of many still
makes me feel like less of a target than being in a tank. Years later I have
read many accounts of WWII infantry veterans who did not want to be anywhere
near a tank or heavy weapon because they knew it was going to draw attention
and fire.
	It's easier to pop off a few rounds and squeeze my 170 lbs (many
years ago) behind cover than it is to hide a tank or field gun after firing.
Hell, I can disappear in a small clump of bushes if I have to.
	Statistically, it might not be as safe. I'm sure someone can come up
with figures. Regardless, psychologically it seems to make sense. I imagine
fighter pilots in large squadrons feel less exposed as well. Safety in
numbers and all that. Perception over reality, perhaps, but I bet that,
given the choice of crossing a river under fire on a large 200 man barge or
20 ten man boats, most people would take the latter.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] juries
In-Reply-To: <108.15a4adbc.2a7a6208@aol.com>
References: <108.15a4adbc.2a7a6208@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m34reetvfp.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
> 
> > Amateur juries seem to me to be ill equipped to handle many kinds
> > of cases.
> 
> True.  And irrelevant to why they exist.  Juries aren't meant to be 
> professional, quite the opposite.  Juries are meant to be a last and final 
> check and balance against governmental power over individual citizens.  The 
> government can't put anyone in jail unless they can get a bunch of amateur 
> citizens to agree.  It's preferable to the alternative.

And here I'll agree with you whole-heartedly.  Juries are _supposed_
to give every benefit of the doubt to the accused.  Hence the jury of
one's peers (which I think could arguably be extended to mean race,
sex and class).  Hence the myriad of protections for the accused.
hence the rules on evidence-gathering.  All so that, once that guilty
verdict is read, we can _believe_ it and act accordingly, that is
deprive the convicted man of life, liberty or property as punishment.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
You see, in the post-televisual world we read.  --John Gipson

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:07:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Strain)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:07:39 2002
Subject: [TML] John Strain where have you gone? (Antony Farrell)
References: <20020801134003.15380.76944.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <01fd01c23976$2bdb1f20$a03a3140@dixienet.com>

ARGGGg, shoot! I am not suprised one bit - I have had the highest 'bounce'
rate this past month ever! ~~ John

email  missingjn@dixie-net.com      strain_john@hotmail.com
 strainjohn@yahoo.com     strain_john@ivillage.com     pick one...or try
them all.

> From: "Antony Farrell"  Subject: [TML] John Strain where have you gone?
> are you still here? The emails I sent to you regarding the graphics you
want
> to use have been bouncing. Something about invalid return address.
> Could you try sending me another email   Antony



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:09:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:09:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Acceptable losses
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CC8@USCHM203>

>Flykiller wrote:

>I read somewhere that during the War Between the States the Northern armies

>would place new recruits in entirely new brigades, which made them
>unreliable 
>at first, while the Southern armies would install their new recruits in 
>established armies, which steadied their new recruits greatly.

Not exactly relevant, but mention of the Civil War reminded me of what one
of my South Carolinian friends told me:

"You know what the difference was between a rich Yankee and a rich
Southerner? The rich Yankee paid someone to take his place in the army, and
the rich Southerner outfitted his own regiment."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:10:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:10:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <20020801122203.46aeed42cde04f34877f57ddbe49f2bf.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>     The three squadrons involved flew Devastators, NOT Swordfish as earlier 
>posted.  The incrediably elderly Swordfish biplane belonged the RAF's Fleet 
>Air Arm (the RN couldn't design or "own" its embarked aircraft!  D'oh!).  

Well, until just before World War 2.  Then it was the Royal NAVY's Fleet Air
Arm again, only after much struggle.  One of the less brilliant ideas of
Hugh Trenchard when he was creating the RAF, including both the Royal Flying
Corp and the RN's air arm.  

The design part is true, until World War Two.  Which also meant the Royal
Navy and the British aviation industry had lacked experience of designing
and building carrier-borne aircraft, which meant it took to near the end of
the war before the RN had a good indigenous (Plenty of American carrier
aircraft available.), dedicated carrier-borne aircraft (The Seafire did not
start life as a carrier aircraft.).

>The USN's Devastators had been in service ~7 years and was an obselescent 
>design too, although not as bad as the Swordfish(1).

The Swordfish was not bad....And for the role it was intended, it was
probably better then the TBD!  Which is a sad commentary on US naval
aviation more then anything else.

I would also nominate Operation PEDESTAL, the fighting around Crete, much of
the Mediterranean war, etc.

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

 My Sale List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
 My Want List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:11:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:11:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Acceptable losses
In-Reply-To: <m3bs8ngokq.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <20020731235711.7e8b877379fe414d85fbfc7414631d19.in@keywest.kennett.net>
 <20020731235711.7e8b877379fe414d85fbfc7414631d19.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801091513.4667c4d0@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:01 PM 7/31/2002 -0600, you wrote:

>No, you don't understand.  Every unit must have a Texan (known as
>Tex), a Brooklyner, a racist Southerner, an effete intellectual, a Jew
>and half-a-dozen Midwesterners.  At least, acc. to the war movies:-)

Been reading Ground Forces again?

(For those who don't have it (shame on you!) I included a pile of
sterotypical war-movie types, and how to build them.  The Opie, the
Get-Over Artist, Casanovas, Old Sergeants...)
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Embrace Fascism.    The uniforms look cool


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:12:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:12:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Con Jose the World SF Con any Travellers going?
In-Reply-To: <200208010315.g713FgD09733@sun.ebtech.net>
References: <005601c23562$877a46c0$810fbd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801092023.45176588@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:12 PM 7/31/2002 -500, you wrote:
>Hi I'll be at Con Jose working the Coffeeklatches
>
>Anyone else planning on attending?

I'll be there, working publications.

>Maybe we could get together over a meal to talk Traveller.

It would be fun.  May I suggest that anyone attending ConJose subscribe to
Travller in SF.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TravellerinSF/

So we can coordinate a meeting time and place.  If we want to do an actual
dinner, I need to know how many people are coming.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
- Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:12:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:12:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Kit (as our British friends say)
In-Reply-To: <d4.1b055146.2a7a030a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801092658.4c07ad3c@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:20 PM 7/31/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>One of my favorite bits of reading is a papyrus detailing the pay record
of a 
>Roman soldier in Egypt ca. 250 AD There are deductions for uniform and 
>equipment, mandatory deposit to the unit savings bank, contributions to the 
>burial fund (insurance) and the unit Saturnalia feast (held around the same 
>time as Christmas), and stoppages to pay for a wine bar demolished in the 
>course of a brawl. Every soldier I have ever shown it to marvels at the line 
>on the bottom:
>
>"Copy 2 of 3, for unit archives"

Good lord, a Roman LES?  (Leave and Earning Statement)  Just goes to show
why the Empire fell, they developed a military bureaucracy.

What is the Latin for Rear Echelon Mother-F**ker?
--

Duugirashir Irebamenagiin  gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
Inquisitor Maximus, Reformed Canon Church of Sylea


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:13:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:13:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Kit (as our British friends say)
In-Reply-To: <02080113001703.22132@avlendris>
References: <20020801115445.5089.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>
 <20020801115445.5089.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801092932.4517038c@pop.mindspring.com>

At 01:00 PM 8/1/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>
>> > "Copy 2 of 3, for unit archives"
>>   OMG!!!!! The, the, the......[sigh]......
>
>This seems to be flying right over my head... is that what the modern 
>equivalents also say or something?

The modern US Military has a form called the Leave and Earning Statement
(LES) that details your rank, pay received, and any deductions made such as
AUSA dues (Association of the US Army), insurance, and forfeiture of pay
due to Article 15 punishments.  There are several copies, one of which is
stored at the battalion-level in case there is a problem with your pay.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:13:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:13:51 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
In-Reply-To: <200207312007.LTZ05292@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801093246.4c070802@pop.mindspring.com>

At 04:07 PM 7/31/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>"Glenn M. Goffin" says
>>So, John, are you a sociopath in real life, or do you just 
>>play one in RPGs?
>
>In real life, the Army saw fit to conduct a psychological 
>evaluation, and on the commander's recommendation, I was sent 
>to sniper school.  Later, when I became a software 
>consultant...

Hey!  They gave me a pysch eval before I was assigned to sniper school!
Evidently, I was just sociopathic enough for their purposes...
-- 

Douglas E. Berry      gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"Well, thanks to the Internet, I'm now bored
 with sex." - Fry, Futurama

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:14:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:14:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Acceptable losses
In-Reply-To: <18e.baee50e.2a7a654a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801093629.477f1bde@pop.mindspring.com>

At 06:19 AM 8/1/2002 EDT, you wrote:
> >I think the idea is to look at new weapons and technology with the idea 
> >that standard concepts from the last well may no longer apply.  Certainly, 
> >it is impossible to anticipate change.
>
>It is if you are the one driving it.

Not really.  Sometimes, changes you intiate have consequences that you
can't predict.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:14:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:14:56 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <av4ikugatpklat65etuddk08afchu3ve4e@4ax.com>
References: <20020801043903.8532.97422.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <20020801043903.8532.97422.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801094055.44fff8cc@pop.mindspring.com>

At 06:58 AM 8/1/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>And Patton got it wrong, at that - the purpose of the American soldier is
>to _severely_maim_ the other bastards.  If you kill him, they can just
>leave the body until it's safe to come get it and give it a burial.
>
>If you just maim him, they have to devote manpower and resources to getting
>him out of the line of fire, and trying to put him back together.  Which
>means less that they can throw at you.

It is a violation of the laws of land warfare to intentionally shoot to
maim or injure an enemy combatant.  You are supposed to go for the kill.
This mainly applies to snipers, who have been known to wound enemy soldiers
as bait for rescue attempts.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:17:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:17:10 2002
Subject: Service Pay ( [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <2c231b2c59ae.2c59ae2c231b@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>
Date: Thursday, August 1, 2002 6:42 pm
Subject: Re: Service Pay ( [TML] warship optimization in traveller

<<snip>> 
> 
> Tod L Glenn wrote:
> 
> >What service and when?  When I went through The Ft. Benning 
> school for boys
> >(Summer 1980), we were paid in cash monthly.  $600 dollars, as I 
> recall.>Accountable property was just that.  It was signed out to 
> you, and you were
> >expected to sign it back in.  Anything missing or damaged, you 
> paid for.
> 

This practice goes a long way to explaining why captains go down with 
the ship.... ;-)

<<snip>>
> 
> 	ObTrav, imagine having your pay docked for an FGMP-15? Hope you
> planned on staying in for 5 terms!

I've always wanted to see the hand receipt for a _Tigress_....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <2d16412cfe49.2cfe492d1641@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Thursday, August 1, 2002 7:24 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships

<<snip>>
> 
> >The USN's Devastators had been in service ~7 years and was an 
> obselescent 
> >design too, although not as bad as the Swordfish(1).
> 
> The Swordfish was not bad....And for the role it was intended, it was
> probably better then the TBD!  Which is a sad commentary on US naval
> aviation more then anything else.

OTOH, the Stringbag was never sent into battle against carrier-based 
fighters.  The TBD pilots at Midway, meanwhile, had to try to survive 
without fighter cover against the A6M Zero.  Hardly a fair contest (of 
course, any military leader who tries to fight war _fairly_ isn't doing 
the job correctly).

<<snip>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:21:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:21:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Character Conversions
Message-ID: <20020801172052.47546.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>

Has anyone ever come up with a good character
conversion system?  I mean one that allows for
conversion to CT, MT, TNE, T4, GT, and T20.

I know that some of these are very similar (MT & T4),
but what about the others?

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Character Conversions
Message-ID: <2dbfaf2d6ae3.2d6ae32dbfaf@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com>
Date: Thursday, August 1, 2002 8:20 pm
Subject: [TML] Character Conversions

> Has anyone ever come up with a good character
> conversion system?  I mean one that allows for
> conversion to CT, MT, TNE, T4, GT, and T20.
> 
> I know that some of these are very similar (MT & T4),
> but what about the others?

CT, MT and T4 chargen rules are similar enough (at least if you use LBB 
4+ for your CT characters) that conversion is fairly straightforward.  
IIRC (I failed to pack my copy for shipment to Sinai), _Survival Margin_ 
includes notes on converting MT characters to TNE.  Similarly, the base 
GT rulebook includes conversion rules for most, if not all, previous 
Trav rulesets.  Someone else will have to answer about T20.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:31:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:31:05 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CC1@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801101615.43af8f6e@pop.mindspring.com>

At 05:48 PM 7/31/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>I assume the other veterans experienced this as well. I'm curious if you
>were as surprised as I was.

In the US Army of the early-mid 80s, all my basic issue was just that:
issued.  I was authorized four sets of BDUs, two pairs of boots, combat,
leather, etc..  I could always exchange a set that had become damaged or
worn for a new set.  Of course, I bought extra sets of BDUs so I had a
parade-ready issue set at all times. (The "field-gear" got stuffed in a car
trunk during command inspections.)

Things like our LBE, shelter halves, fart sacks and the like were issued at
the organizational level, and had to be turned in when we were transfered,
which was a bitch and a half for cleaning.

>Oh, and they also charged us for haircuts. As if we had a choice.

Barbar shop was a civilian contractor, he made his money shaving recruits
and cutting hair for soldiers.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Embrace Fascism.    The uniforms look cool


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:31:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:31:35 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <193.ac0a39b.2a7a20cf@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801102115.43afd25a@pop.mindspring.com>

At 01:27 AM 8/1/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>Imminent threats to national survival, of course, change casualty rate 
>acceptance.  But the original subject was hundreds of fighter pilots for the 
>one or two lucky shots to kill a capital ship as a standard by-the-book 
>tactic.  Never happen.

Look up the Battle of Midway.  The IJN Hiryu was caught reloading and
refueling by American dive bombers.  It took three hits and was on fire and
sank soon afterwards.  Another of the Japanese carriers absorbed a dozen
hits beofre sinking.

The Golden Shot does occur, that's why we try.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:32:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:32:07 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <bf.241eecb7.2a7a4368@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801102509.44ff225e@pop.mindspring.com>

At 03:55 AM 8/1/2002 EDT, you wrote:
> >>asking hundreds of them at a time to give up their lives all 
> >>at once, just to make a tactic work, in one segment of a 
> >>single battle, is not an insignificant outlay for THEM.  
> >>(push button) "go do this, guys."  (lights 
> >>flash) "ok."  it doesn't work that way.
> > 
> >See the battle of Midway.  The low level torpedo attack 
> >planes that sacrificed themselves to Japanese anti-aircraft 
> >fire so that the dive bombers would have a chance.
>
>Yes, with a huge Japanese fleet threatening their homeland and only them 
>standing between the yellow peril and their families.  It was not, however, 
>a standard tactic, employed "because they'll tolerate it".

Wrong.  Hawaii was a colony at the time, and the actual United states was
2000 miles away.  The Navy pilots did their jobs because that's what they
were trained to do.  Because that was the mission: sink those flat-tops.

Read up on the Battle of Camerone, or Gallipoli, or Verdun.  Soldiers can
and will sacrifice themselves for a greater purpose.
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <F137of0aYhHnKZ1nSIz0000ee76@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000001c23982$55e0e910$6501a8c0@Darla>

As an elaboration, the torpedo squadrons at Midway did not score any
hits -- but, quite by accident, they drew the Japanese fighter cover
down to sea level and cleared the way for the divebomber attacks that
sank three carriers.

This was not a deliberate "trade".  It just happened that way.  The
torpedo squadrons pressed their attack because they knew it was their
duty to do so.  They did not have ANY knowledge that they were setting
up a coordinated attack, or even of the presence of either of the two
other torpedo squadrons.  They attacked out of their determination to
close with and destroy the enemy:

"My greatest hope is that we encounter a favorable tactical situation,
but if we don't, and the worst comes to the worst, I want each of us to
do his utmost to destroy our enemies.  If there is only one plane left
to make a final run in, I want that man to go in and get a hit.  May God
go with us all."  --- John C. Waldron, CO TORPEDO EIGHT, 4 June 1942

The point being, that warriors fighting for what they believe it do not
weigh the cost in the moment of combat -- they do their duty, and there
is little that they cannot accomplish.


Thomas Barnes



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Acceptable losses
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020801091513.4667c4d0@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <20020731235711.7e8b877379fe414d85fbfc7414631d19.in@keywest.kennett.net>
 <20020731235711.7e8b877379fe414d85fbfc7414631d19.in@keywest.kennett.net>
 <3.0.5.16.20020801091513.4667c4d0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m3lm7qsbz0.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes:
> 
> Been reading Ground Forces again?

Not recently, but I do own it.  Hope you enjoyed the fraction of a cup
of coffee:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Man, I'm glad that I'm not using [Microsoft Product].  This new
[virus/worm/trojan] exploits a [flaw/bug/backdoor] in [Microsoft
Product], and it [does/doesn't] use Outlook and the stupidity of users.
Luckily, I'm running [Free alternative to Microsoft product], so I'm not
at risk.  In fact, [Free alternative to Microsoft product] has protected
me from [any integer over 200] [viruses/worms/trojans].  And just look
at the [hundreds/thousands/millions/billions] of dollars that I've saved
using [Free alternative to Microsoft product].  I hope that this [Free
alternative to Microsoft product] takes off, along with [free
alternative to Microsoft OS].  Unfortunately, my [company/home] has to
pay for the stupidity of Microsoft: this [virus/worm/trojan] sucked
[250KB/250MB/250GB/250TB] of bandwidth!                  --cwcairns

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CCC@USCHM203>

Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 09:40:55
To: tml@travellercentral.com
>"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:

>It is a violation of the laws of land warfare to intentionally shoot to
>maim or injure an enemy combatant.  You are supposed to go for the kill.
>This mainly applies to snipers, who have been known to wound enemy soldiers
>as bait for rescue attempts.

Don't know if this is true or not, but supposedly it is also a violation to
use an M2 (the .50 caliber Heavy MG of a recent thread) to shoot at
individual combatants. It is only to be used for attacking vehicles and
equipment.
A friend of mine who served in the US 101st told me that an instructor at
Fort Campbell then went on to give examples of what could be considered
"equipment":

"Web gear, canteens, helmets, eyeglasses, magazines, entrenching tools...."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:03:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:03:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Acceptable losses
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CC8@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <000001c23985$cff0e5e0$6501a8c0@Darla>

AFAIK the major reason that the Union Army in the ACW tended to raise
new regiments instead of adding replacement to veteran ones was that
raising a new regiment allowed the governor of the state to commission a
regiment's worth of officers, up to and including a Colonel.  

TWB

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com [mailto:tml-
> admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Hurrel, Brian
> Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 11:31 AM
> To: 'tml@travellercentral.com'
> Subject: Re: [TML] Acceptable losses
> 
> >Flykiller wrote:
> 
> >I read somewhere that during the War Between the States the Northern
> armies
> 
> >would place new recruits in entirely new brigades, which made them
> >unreliable
> >at first, while the Southern armies would install their new recruits
in
> >established armies, which steadied their new recruits greatly.
> 
> Not exactly relevant, but mention of the Civil War reminded me of what
one
> of my South Carolinian friends told me:
> 
> "You know what the difference was between a rich Yankee and a rich
> Southerner? The rich Yankee paid someone to take his place in the
army,
> and
> the rich Southerner outfitted his own regiment."
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <200208011810.LVR04270@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Douglas E. Berry" says
>Hey!  They gave me a pysch eval before I was assigned to 
>sniper school! Evidently, I was just sociopathic enough for 
>their purposes...

I think I see a pattern here...

long time Traveller player...
joins the military (some of us wished we did)...
maybe even the Marines, (but Ft. Benning School For Boys is 
OK)
probably infantry...
could be Navy, though...
fiendish affection for small arms...
ends up as a writer (gasp!) or a programmer (have to pay the 
bills) or a lawyer!

It almost looks like we saw our initial career paths in the 
LBBs, and when we mustered out, we went and got "ordinary" 
jobs.

I bet that fighting hole full of cold rainwater I stepped 
into near LZ Aardvark was put there by Doug.  Thanks, Doug.

________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] juries
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEFAEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <3D497ADB.7010302@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Terry Carlino wrote:

> I've got to say that I have very little confidence in the present U.S. legal
> system. I don't mean in a political way. I just don't think that an
> adversarial system is all that good for determining guilt. Amateur juries
> seem to me to be ill equipped to handle many kinds of cases. They let people
> go when there is very solid scientifically based evidence, such as DNA,
> because they don't understand it. They find thieves innocent who steal using
> a ledger rather than a gun because they can't understand the complex
> accounting ruses used to strip value form companies and defraud. They
> release obviously guilty individuals because the defense attorney is a
> better speaker or looks better in his $1000 suit than the prosecutor does in
> her $140 Kmart suit, (or vice versa for public defenders and big city
> political DA's.)

I'll start by mentioning two maxims:

The plural of anecdote is not data.

What you see on TeeVee is not all real.

And if you've never served on a jury, and had to make those decisions, 
you do not know what it's like. To imply that a jury lets someone off 
because they have a defense lawyer in a slick suit, is wrong, and 
moreover, pure demagoguery.

More often than not, the reality is that the lawyer who can afford the 
slick suit is a good lawyer, with lots of resources to devote to the case.

As a whole, the jury system in the US does work pretty damned well.

The entire justice system suffers a bit, because if you have money you 
can afford good lawyers. If you're poor, you get someone overworked who 
will counsel you to plead out rather than take a case to trial, often no 
matter what the actual state of your guilt or innocence.

Yeah, OJ got off.

The truth is, contrary to popular belief, the average American is not as 
dumb as a post, the average jury isn't stupid or incapable of dealing 
with sophisticated evidence.

In the OJ case, the jury obviously bought the defense argument (at least 
to a state of reasonable doubt) that the handling of the evidence, and 
the bias of the investigating officers had been sufficiently tainting 
that they couldn't convict.

Juries are told very carefully what they are and they aren't allowed to 
consider during deliberations, and sometimes that doesn't all make 
sense, particularly to someone, *unlike the jury*, that has been swamped 
with media coverage and rampant punditry on the case.

In the Anderson case, it was clear that something wrong had been done. 
Proving it was entirely another matter, because what had probably been 
done was the destruction of the evidence needed to prove the wrongdoing.

It was not clear, *from the evidence*, that the *people* had done what 
the prosecutors said they did.

Note, in the Anderson case, shady accounting practices did not come into 
the decision at all, merely whether they had conspired to obstruct justice.

No criminal case over *shady accounting* has yet come out of the recent 
scandals. In previous trials, people who committed shady deals *have* 
been convicted: Millken, Keating, our ex-guv J. Thief Slimington. 
(though the latter two got off because of appeals and a friggin' 
presidential pardon, respectively)

But the very nature of the evidence in trials over accounting is 
slipperier than, say, a trial over stolen property.

It's easy to say whether someone did or did not have Mrs. Smiths TV and 
stereo in the back of their car, or that the property was recovered with 
their fingerprints on it.

It's a LOT harder to say whether Mrs. Smith's finance adviser showed bad 
judgement, bad luck or criminal intent in commiting her to ruinous 
transactions.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:18:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:18:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <200208011817.LVR05093@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Hurrel, Brian" says
>"Web gear, canteens, helmets, eyeglasses, magazines, 
>entrenching tools...."

Yes, you can shoot at anything that the enemy soldier has 
signed for.  Make sure you check his forms, and after you 
fire your rounds, have him sign for the ones that hit him.

There have been references to Imperial rules concerning 
warfare - are there really any in canon?  No use of nukes by 
non-Imperial forces?  Meson guns?  No genocide?  Eh?

The line from Apocalypse Now always made sense to me: 
arresting someone for violating the rules of war is like 
handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
In-Reply-To: <200208011810.LVR04270@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B96ECAA0.67370%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 11:10 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> I bet that fighting hole full of cold rainwater I stepped
> into near LZ Aardvark was put there by Doug.  Thanks, Doug.

The wonderful bond of shared experience (misery).  We can all sit down
together, drink beer, and share tales of the fine accommodations of Harmony
Church, the facilities at AO Eagle, the pleasures of Columbus Georgia.
Differentiated only by the uniform we wore, or the color of our boots and
whether we took the SQT or the POIQT.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:24:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:24:35 2002
Subject: [TML] juries
Message-ID: <200208011823.LVR05798@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Bruce Johnson says
<snip good comments about the intractability of determining 
accounting wrongdoing>

Hence the general populations unease with the concept of "no 
controlling authority".

Maybe the concept of men, not so much laws, is not a bad 
one.  Sure, we could say that on Regina, there's no specific 
law against writing your ledgers that way.  On the other 
hand, if news gets out, and there's enough related heat (such 
as massive corporate collapse), the Duke of Regina will be 
sending you a personal invitation to the prison hulk.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:25:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:25:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <200208011817.LVR05093@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020801182452.5599.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:
> 
> The line from Apocalypse Now always made sense to
> me: 
> arresting someone for violating the rules of war is
> like 
> handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500.

Which is what I've always thought about so called
"rules of war".  It makes about as much sense to have
rules when it comes to war as it does to have speed
limits at the Indy 500 (or Daytona us southerners).

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:33:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff D. Greenly)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:33:18 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <sd494643.049@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>

Larsen raises several excellent points. I thought I would chime in,
briefly, because I am of the opinion that Mr. Fly simply doesn't get it
despite what the true warrior types on the TML have been (very
patiently) explaining. TML hasn't been this interesting in a while!

One need only to look at the Battle of the Atlantic to see how much of
an effect esprit de corps and loyalty go towards men willingly going
into grave danger. I may be slightly off on my numbers, but the U-Boat
service saw the highest losses of ANY service branch, across all
nationalities during WW II. Something like 80% of all U-boatmen were KIA
towards the end of the war, with the average life expectancy being a
week. 

Funny how there were more volunteers than the service needed right up
to the end of the war, and there was never a single incidence of mutiny
(although there was ONE incident where a u-boat captain was executed for
cowardice in the face of the enemy. This was based on the testimony of
his crew and his own logs!) The crews KNEW things were rough.There were
a lot more u-boats missing than ones that came back to port, and of the
ones that did come back in, very few had any kills to their credit as
the war dragged on. They knew that the time of the Paukenschlag and the
Gray Wolves were over. But they went for Onkel Karl and they went for
glory, and they went because they were the cream of the crop and they
knew it, and they died in STAGGERING numbers. 

I think that a massed assault by fighters, assault shuttles or other
small craft in conjunction with light and medium ships of the line is a
perfectly viable and certainly historically proven means of depriving
the enemy of his capital ships. All it takes is one hit and you're
halfway there. Stop and think. A big ship, crewed by thousands and
costing hundreds of millions of credits can be taken out of action by a
force of craft costing a tenth and crewed by 1-3 men each. Combine that
fighter attack with coups d'grace administered by a number of cruisers,
destroyers, frigates and so on, and you have a very flexible multi-role
force for a lot less than a fleet full of big ships. There's a reason
the US Navy (as well as most other modern fleets!) is comprised the way
it is. Learn from it.

Jeff
OT3, USN

BTW, I think some of the best Navy chow to be had is at RTC Great
Lakes. You can have as much as you can get down in 5 minutes. I can't
remember tasting anything while I was there, but I got plenty! I also
seem to remember getting charged 6 bucks for 2 haircuts while I was
there, 3 bucks for my web belts and spats (one green belt, one white
belt, one pair white spats) and 85 bucks for my peacoat. I still have
the peacoat. I think I also had to buy a pair of running shoes for 10
bucks, and I only ran in them a few times, in the old blimp hangers. I
remember having to buy a plastic cigarette case, even though we couldn't
smoke. It apparently was for small valuables, but I never used mine. We
also had to buy our Bluejacket Manuals. I still have mine, proudly
sitting on my bookshelf at home. Funny to go back and look at it after
all these years....Ah, well.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Scott Kullberg)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <200208011817.LVR05093@vmms1.verisignmail.com> ("John T.
 Kwon"'s message of "Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:17:04 -0400")
References: <200208011817.LVR05093@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <m2d6t2juj5.fsf@attbi.com>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:

> There have been references to Imperial rules concerning 
> warfare - are there really any in canon?  No use of nukes by 
> non-Imperial forces?  Meson guns?  No genocide?  Eh?
>
> The line from Apocalypse Now always made sense to me: 
> arresting someone for violating the rules of war is like 
> handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500.

As I read the canon, the Imperial Rules of War don't apply to the
Imperium and its peers; they're for Imperial members. Fight clean, and
your little planets can have their little wars. Play dirty, and you'll
have IN dreadnoughts in low orbit and Imperial Marine assault shuttles
on your capital. It works because of the peculiar Traveller convention
that a powerful over-government exists but still allows what we would
call call "civil wars".

There might be 'rules' when the Imps fight the Zhos, but those are
really just customs and just as (un-)enforceable as what we've got now.


-- 
Scott E Kullberg  --><--  sekullbe@attbi.com
 "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands,
 hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -- H. L. Mencken

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <20020801182452.5599.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B96ECE97.67378%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 11:24 AM, Paul Walker at traveller_tv@yahoo.com wrote:

> 
> Which is what I've always thought about so called
> "rules of war".  It makes about as much sense to have
> rules when it comes to war as it does to have speed
> limits at the Indy 500 (or Daytona us southerners).

I'm not sure that this is the same thing, and frankly, war without rules
frightens me.  We get back to barbaric times.  Shooting prisoners of war out
of hand, killing noncombatants, using poison gas, biological warfare, etc.,
etc.

Ultimately, all of these things have a very real toll, particularly on the
combatants themselves. Unless we want to become barbarians ourselves, again.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <m2d6t2juj5.fsf@attbi.com>
Message-ID: <B96ECF6B.6737C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 11:36 AM, Scott Kullberg at sekullbe@attbi.com wrote:

> 
> As I read the canon, the Imperial Rules of War don't apply to the
> Imperium and its peers; they're for Imperial members. Fight clean, and
> your little planets can have their little wars. Play dirty, and you'll
> have IN dreadnoughts in low orbit and Imperial Marine assault shuttles
> on your capital. It works because of the peculiar Traveller convention
> that a powerful over-government exists but still allows what we would
> call call "civil wars".
> 
> There might be 'rules' when the Imps fight the Zhos, but those are
> really just customs and just as (un-)enforceable as what we've got now.
> 

Yeah.  The Imperium like to preserve nukes and such for itself, if for no
other reason that to keep member states from getting too big for their
britches.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:03:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:03:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <B96ECE97.67378%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020801190214.8933.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> traveller_tv@yahoo.com wrote:
> > 
> > Which is what I've always thought about so called
> > "rules of war".  It makes about as much sense to
> have
> > rules when it comes to war as it does to have
> speed
> > limits at the Indy 500 (or Daytona us
> southerners).
> 
> I'm not sure that this is the same thing, and
> frankly, war without rules
> frightens me.  We get back to barbaric times. 
> Shooting prisoners of war out
> of hand, killing noncombatants, using poison gas,
> biological warfare, etc.,
> etc.
> 
> Ultimately, all of these things have a very real
> toll, particularly on the
> combatants themselves. Unless we want to become
> barbarians ourselves, again.
> 

Tod,

Actually, I agree with you, but I don't think it is
accurate to call it "rules" any more than the courtesy
between drivers at Indy or Daytona can be called
"speed limits" or "rules" of driving.

We extend POW's and noncombatants a certain amount of
"courtesy" and expect the same from our enemies.  Our
culture (at least for now) calls for this courtesy to
be extended even if it is not returned.  A perfect
example is the war against the terrorist
organizations.  They have no problem killing prisoners
and noncombatants, and yet we still extend the
courtesies mentioned above to them.

Maybe it is pedantic, but calling them rules implies
some sort of implicit wrong in breaking them.  Rather
than a courtesy, something that, in some cases, should
indeed be broken.

So, I guess I misspoke.  I should have said that it
makes about as much sense to have traffic laws at Indy
or Daytona as it does to have "rules" when it comes to
war.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <20020801190214.8933.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B96ED62A.67384%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 12:02 PM, Paul Walker at traveller_tv@yahoo.com wrote:
> 
> So, I guess I misspoke.  I should have said that it
> makes about as much sense to have traffic laws at Indy
> or Daytona as it does to have "rules" when it comes to
> war.
> 

Ah, but there are 'traffic laws' at Indy.  Take, for example, the yellow
flag.  Also, you cannot run down people.  You cannot install machineguns in
your car, dump oil or smoke, etc.

The rules of war are more than just courtesy in that when our own people
break them, we punish them.  Certainly, they are broken.  But we don't say
'That's OK'.  We may say that it is understandable.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:30:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moreton)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:30:22 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <43.f41b3de.2a7a45aa@aol.com>
Message-ID: <026001c23992$31805e60$18130050@amoreton>



> >HMS Glow-worm ramming the Admiral Hipper comes to mind. The destroyer's
>  >mass
>  >was literally the only thing that might hurt the cruiser, and if she
wasn't
>  >hurt then the convoy would be massacred. Her skipper knew his ship would
>  >sink; he knew many (but probably not all) of his crew would die. But the
>  >decision was made in the face of the enemy, for a clear goal - to save
>  >hundreds of helpless merchant seamen. Would the crew have accepted an
>  >Admiralty policy of "we're not giving you torpedoes. You're to close and
>  >ram, then sink"? In desperate times, some people actually would. But,
say,
>  >in 1934? Nope.

Not to disagree with    the point of the comment but some details on the
loss of HMS Glowworm  was not escorting a convoy at the time of the battle
with the Hipper, she had been part of a minelaying sortie off the Norwegian
coast she became seperated from her consorts and came across on of the
Hipper's escrting destroyers. In the prevailing bad weather the Glowworm was
forced into close action with the Hipper, the Hipper attempted to run down
the Glowworm and then the Captain of the Glowworm  Lt Cmdr Gerald G Rooper
deceided to Ram the Hipper he succeeded adn the impact carried away 120 feet
of the hippers side plate and let in 528 tons of water , the Hipper carried
on with a 4 degree list and accomplished her mission. Many of the Glowworms
crew where saved by German vessels not including her captain who drowned
while being rescued , he was postumously awarded the VC.
You may perhaps be confusing the Glowworm with 2 British Armed Merchant
crusiers the Jarvis Bay as the lone escort of a convoy the Jarvis Bay a
converted liner with about 6 obsolete 6 inch guns when the convoy
encountered the Pocket Battleship Admiral Scheer heavily armoured and armed
with 6 11 inch guns . The Jarvis Bay charged the Admiral Scheer drawing the
Fire of the Scheer upon herself allowing the Convoy to scatter to safety
.her Captain E S F Fegan was awarded the VC posthumously.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:32:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:32:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <20020801182452.5599.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020801182452.5599.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <m38z3qs7e0.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:
> 
> Which is what I've always thought about so called "rules of war".
> It makes about as much sense to have rules when it comes to war as
> it does to have speed limits at the Indy 500 (or Daytona us
> southerners).

Not really.  The whole point of a race is to see who can go the
fastest.  But the point of war is _not_ to see who can commit the most
atrocities.  The exact point is a matter of some contention, but I
tend to figure that it has to do with taking and holding territory.
Since someone else is holding and defending it, men are going to die.
But there's no point in being cruel about it.  `If you must kill a
man, there's no harm in being polite to him.'  In much the same way,
if you're going to kill a man, shoot him cleanly; don't leave him
lying in his guts screaming for hours.  Don't gas him, so he doesn't
die but instead leads a long life of pain and misery.  Don't hunt down
and kill his wife and children.  Don't torture him if you capture
him.  In fact, if you capture him he's no longer a threat, so don't
kill him at all.

The rules of war are what prevent a horrendous thing from becoming
even worse.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I owe the government $3400 in taxes.  So I sent them two hammers and a
toilet seat.                                         --Michael McShane

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:35:04 2002
Subject: [TML] juries
In-Reply-To: <3D497ADB.7010302@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEFAEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
 <3D497ADB.7010302@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <m34rees79e.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:
> 
> The truth is, contrary to popular belief, the average American is
> not as dumb as a post, the average jury isn't stupid or incapable of
> dealing with sophisticated evidence.

No, but his IQ is 100, which isn't that much more impressive...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Reading maketh a full man; conference a ready man; and writing an exact
man.                                                            --Bacon

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:43:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:43:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <20020801190214.8933.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020801190214.8933.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <m3y9bqqsbp.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:
> 
> We extend POW's and noncombatants a certain amount of "courtesy" and
> expect the same from our enemies.  Our culture (at least for now)
> calls for this courtesy to be extended even if it is not returned.

IMHO civilian opinion that's foolish.  The deal should be play by our
rules or we play by none.  That is, we'll refrain from using NBC
weapons, we'll take prisoners, we'll treat them right, we'll avoid
hitting civilians for exactly so long as the other side does.  If they
don't, then we don't; instead we run up the black flag and fight
dirty.  It's not as though they'd retaliate by fighting dirty; they
already do.

Note that I am _not_ referring to any current actions, simply to a
theoretical stance.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
His troops would follow him anywhere, but only out of curiosity.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:46:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:46:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <m38z3qs7e0.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <B96EDDFB.6739E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 12:31 PM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> and kill his wife and children.  Don't torture him if you capture
> him.  In fact, if you capture him he's no longer a threat, so don't
> kill him at all.

More than that, if you treat your prisoners well, and the enemy knows it,
they may be more inclined to surrender.  Would the Iraqis have surrendered
in droves if we were shooting them out of hand and putting their heads on
poles?  I don't think so.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Chris Tann)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <20020801190006.19736.20169.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020801194721.65071.qmail@web14504.mail.yahoo.com>

The actual Apocalypse Now quote is 

"Shit...charging a
man with murder in this place was like handing out speeding
tickets in the Indy 500."

I also like 

"They  train young men to drop fire on people. But their commanders 
won't allow them to  write fuck on their airplanes because it's obscene! "


> on 8/1/02 11:24 AM, Paul Walker at traveller_tv@yahoo.com wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Which is what I've always thought about so called
> > "rules of war".  It makes about as much sense to have
> > rules when it comes to war as it does to have speed
> > limits at the Indy 500 (or Daytona us southerners).
> 
> I'm not sure that this is the same thing, and frankly, war without rules
> frightens me.  
> ...

=====
***********************************************************
Chris Tann                           Independent Consultant
chris@christann.com                       Walkabout Designs
phone (408) 205 6793               http://www.christann.com
***********************************************************

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:51:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:51:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <m3y9bqqsbp.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <B96EDF1B.6739F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 12:42 PM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> 
> IMHO civilian opinion that's foolish.  The deal should be play by our
> rules or we play by none.  That is, we'll refrain from using NBC
> weapons, we'll take prisoners, we'll treat them right, we'll avoid
> hitting civilians for exactly so long as the other side does.  If they
> don't, then we don't; instead we run up the black flag and fight
> dirty.  It's not as though they'd retaliate by fighting dirty; they
> already do.
> 
> Note that I am _not_ referring to any current actions, simply to a
> theoretical stance.

There are reasons for 'playing by civilized rules' other than to encourage
the enemy to do so.  We are a civilized people.  Our soldiers come from that
civilized society.  If we 'play dirty', we can cause great harm to our own
soldiers.  You cannot take a civilized person, send him off to do
unspeakable acts, and then expect him to come home and fit well into
civilized society.  You cannot even expect to maintain discipline.  You
cannot let the enemy dictate your behavior in war.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <B96ED62A.67384%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020801195839.54151.qmail@web20905.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> Ah, but there are 'traffic laws' at Indy.  Take, for
> example, the yellow
> flag.  Also, you cannot run down people.  You cannot
> install machineguns in
> your car, dump oil or smoke, etc.

Good point.  The analogy des fall apart after a bit. 
Mainly because there is (and should be) a governing
authority over the teams/participants in the Indy 500.

The obvious ObTrav here is the Imperial Rules of War.
(IIRC, they were set down in some part first in MT)
 
> The rules of war are more than just courtesy in that
> when our own people
> break them, we punish them.  Certainly, they are
> broken.  But we don't say
> 'That's OK'.  We may say that it is understandable.

I wasn't aware that we police ourselves.  If we do,
then I have no objections to the use of the terms
rules.  Rules, to me, implies that somewhere, somehow
there is someone to answer to if you break them.

I see your point, and if we police ourselves, then
certainly I agree.  Unfortunately, my military
experience outside of the TML is sparse indeed.

ObTrav:  Are there any "Rules" of war between the 3I
and Zho's?  On either side, and who enforces them?

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 14:01:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  1 13:01:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <200208012000.LVV03238@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>There are reasons for 'playing by civilized rules' other 
>than to encourage the enemy to do so.  We are a civilized 
>people.  Our soldiers come from that civilized society.  If 
>we 'play dirty', we can cause great harm to our own
>soldiers.  You cannot take a civilized person, send him off 
>to do unspeakable acts, and then expect him to come home and 
>fit well into civilized society.  You cannot even expect to 
>maintain discipline.  You cannot let the enemy dictate your 
>behavior in war.

While I would shoot, say, a fellow soldier who engaged in an 
atrocity such as rape or torture, it is my belief that our 
soldiers should be allowed to write whatever strikes their 
fancy on the sides on bombs.  If someone comes home and his 
only aftereffect from the "war" is spontaneous graffiti, 
that's ok by me.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 14:04:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff D. Greenly)
Date: Thu Aug  1 13:04:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
Message-ID: <sd495bcc.012@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>

Would a world that has 80% of its surface covered by water, a dense
nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, and one moon that is large enough to exert a
tidal effect tend to be more or less climatically active? Assume
moderate (terran-normal) vulcanism and a fairly non-polluting early TL
aqua/agricultural society. Also assume standard polar ice caps and
rotation around 20 deg. off the plane of the ecliptic. I'll welcome any
and all comments...

Jeff

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 14:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug  1 13:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <B96EDF1B.6739F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020801200953.4391.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> ruhl@4dv.net wrote:
> > 
> > IMHO civilian opinion that's foolish.  The deal
> should be play by our
> > rules or we play by none.  That is, we'll refrain
> from using NBC
> > weapons, we'll take prisoners, we'll treat them
> right, we'll avoid
> > hitting civilians for exactly so long as the other
> side does.  If they
> > don't, then we don't; instead we run up the black
> flag and fight
> > dirty.  It's not as though they'd retaliate by
> fighting dirty; they
> > already do.
> > 
> > Note that I am _not_ referring to any current
> actions, simply to a
> > theoretical stance.
> 
> There are reasons for 'playing by civilized rules'
> other than to encourage
> the enemy to do so.  We are a civilized people.  Our
> soldiers come from that
> civilized society.  If we 'play dirty', we can cause
> great harm to our own
> soldiers.  You cannot take a civilized person, send
> him off to do
> unspeakable acts, and then expect him to come home
> and fit well into
> civilized society.  You cannot even expect to
> maintain discipline.  You
> cannot let the enemy dictate your behavior in war.
> 

I think this is a difficult issue.  I can see both
sides.  I agree with Tod to a certain extent, but I
think at issue is the extent of the attrocities. 
Certainly the pilots that dropped the nuke's in Japan
weren't unable to maintain their discipline.  I do
think they fit into civilized society afterwards.  Yet
they perpetrated attrocities against civillians as
well as the enemy military.

You see, on the one hand, I don't think any of us
would agree that blanket killing of women and children
is acceptable regardless of who they are.  Yet, in
some cases, we did condone the use of nukes that
killed women and children.

But again, the climate of our country (even our world)
has changed since then.  I doubt there would have come
a time when there was condoned use of nukes against
Afganistan.  Maybe we would use them against Iraq. 
The biggest difference is what is necessary.  In WWII,
it was thought necessary to end the war quickly, hence
the use of nukes was condoned.  Now, despite our
President's use of the "Axis" term, there aren't any
enemies that rival THE Axis threat (at least not yet
anyway).


Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 14:15:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 13:15:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
Message-ID: <ba.29ce83ea.2a7af085@aol.com>

In a message dated 01/08/02 03:47:59 GMT Daylight Time, jrholmes@wi.rr.com 
writes:


Don't be so certain to dismiss Oliver Stone.  After all, he was the
person who wrote Conan the Barbarian for John Milius to direct.  While
a daren't minimize what Milius brought to the story in his direction,
Stone still did a fair job of the near impossible task of telling the
origin story plus telling a classic style adventure.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Stone's script isn't the one that was filmed. His was a far more ambitious 
project involving Conan descending into hell. I believe Milius retained 
chunks of dialogue but I'm not sure how much of Stone's work survived.

There's a good documentary on the Conan DVD but it's a while since I've seen 
it and my memory can be a bit shaky.

Charles

All of us a creatures of a day; the rememberer and the remembered alike

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 14:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 13:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <20020801195839.54151.qmail@web20905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B96EE599.67422%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 12:58 PM, Paul Walker at traveller_tv@yahoo.com wrote:
> 
> ObTrav:  Are there any "Rules" of war between the 3I
> and Zho's?  On either side, and who enforces them?
> 

Rules only in the sense of mutually agreed upon ones (treaties) which govern
the conduct of war.  Typically, these are mutually beneficial, such as those
rules governing the treatment of prisoners, noncombatant, etc.  That is not
to say that each side may have it's rules as well, for no other reason than
"we don't do that sort of thing in the Imperial Army".

I suspect that there is a treaty or at least a tacit understanding that one
does not nuke the other's planet into glass, at least where large civilian
populations are involved.  Possibly merely when a planet is readily
habitable.  Unrestrained nuclear war is bound to have very unpleasant and
lasting consequences.  And canon does not indicate a large number of
destroyed words along either the Zhodani or Solomani borders of the
Imperium.

Are there prisoner exchanges?  Probably.  These were a feature of the 18th
and 19th century European wars and this time period certainly influenced the
designer of our Olde Game.  Perhaps captured officers (or at least
gentlebeings) are even given their parole.

The whole model of interstellar war seems to be more based on the model of
the late 16th early 17th century, where only small parts of the
nation-states actively participated in the war, the majority of the
population went about their business and provinces and such were traded back
and forth.  The one notable exception seems to be the Solomani Rim war,
where ideology and the stability of the Imperium itself played a major
factor, and by all accounts, this was a very nasty war.  One that ended
without a formal armistice, but only an uneasy cessation of hostilities.

I expect that in the rim war, there were probably more atrocities,
particularly given the Solomani attitude about non-Solomani.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 14:20:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 13:20:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <200208012000.LVV03238@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B96EE5E2.67423%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 1:00 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> While I would shoot, say, a fellow soldier who engaged in an
> atrocity such as rape or torture, it is my belief that our
> soldiers should be allowed to write whatever strikes their
> fancy on the sides on bombs.  If someone comes home and his
> only aftereffect from the "war" is spontaneous graffiti,
> that's ok by me.

Agreed.  I didn't mean to suggest that this be taken to ridiculous extremes.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 14:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 13:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <20020801200953.4391.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B96EE955.67436%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 1:09 PM, Paul Walker at traveller_tv@yahoo.com wrote:

> 
> I think this is a difficult issue.  I can see both
> sides.  I agree with Tod to a certain extent, but I
> think at issue is the extent of the attrocities.
> Certainly the pilots that dropped the nuke's in Japan
> weren't unable to maintain their discipline.  I do
> think they fit into civilized society afterwards.  Yet
> they perpetrated attrocities against civillians as
> well as the enemy military.

I think this is a bad example (the Nuke bombing in WWII) since they had be
presaged by the mass bombing of cities with conventional bombs.  I
retrospect, many see mass bombings of civilians as atrocities, but to the
pilots of the B-29s over Hiroshi and Nagasaki dropping their nukes was just
another bombing raid, only with better bombs.

Personally, I don't see the bombing of Hiroshima an Nagasaki a any different
than the fire bombing of Dresden, or the random bombing of English cities by
the Germans.

Our sensibilities have changed.  Would mass bombing of Baghdad have been
acceptable to modern westerners?  Doubtful. Notice how the military went to
great pains to show that it was military targets that were being bombed.
WWII planners showed no such concern.  People like 'Bomber' Harris actively
defended the mass bombing of non-combatant civilians.
> 
> You see, on the one hand, I don't think any of us
> would agree that blanket killing of women and children
> is acceptable regardless of who they are.  Yet, in
> some cases, we did condone the use of nukes that
> killed women and children.

See above.  We condoned the mass killing of women and children with large
scale conventional bombs as well.
> 
> But again, the climate of our country (even our world)
> has changed since then.  I doubt there would have come
> a time when there was condoned use of nukes against
> Afganistan.  Maybe we would use them against Iraq.
> The biggest difference is what is necessary.  In WWII,
> it was thought necessary to end the war quickly, hence
> the use of nukes was condoned.  Now, despite our
> President's use of the "Axis" term, there aren't any
> enemies that rival THE Axis threat (at least not yet
> anyway).

I think it is more than just necessity.  It is a shrinking of our world, and
a change in attitude that says that even out enemies lives have a certain
value.  Ever watched a WWII Bugs Bunny cartoon.  The Germans, and
particularly the Japanese were horribly dehumanized.  We made our enemies
into monsters so then it was OK to exterminate them.

It's certainly not a new attitude. Look at Europeans attitudes of Africans
during the 19th century (white man's burden), or white Americans' vision of
blacks in our own country during the same period.

Nowadays, our sensibilities have change so dramatically that we worry about
whether we are mistreating animals.  During the gulf war there was even
concern about what impact military operations would have on the delicate
desert environment!
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 14:43:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Aug  1 13:43:22 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CDE@USCHM203>

"No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy."

I'm paraphrasing, and can't remember who said this. Maybe Clausewitz(SP?).

The way tactics and counter-tactics evolve, often on the fly, it seems that
in the "fighter swarm" case, you might get away with it once or twice, and
then capital ships would either add a swarm of escorts or a phalanx of point
defense weapons.
Traveller is a bit more static than our world when it comes to technology,
but military technology has been rapidly changing only for the last few
centuries. Earlier on there weren't many advances, but even though change
was slow, warfare has always evolved to meet each new "surefire tactic",
whether that change took a century or a month.
The point being, few "standard tactics", beyond "fix and flank", are going
to last long.
If I'm not mistaken, just about every armed force in WWII was constantly
evolving new tactics for new situations. 
Simply put:

Captain: Okay, this is how we did it yesterday, but this is what we're going
to do today.

The best example I can think of is the Normandy hedgerows. The US had
absolutely no plans whatsoever to take these formidable defensive positions
into account. They had simply been ignored in all planning.
Within weeks they had not only developed tactics to clear the hedgerows, but
had improvised existing equipment, jerry-rigged tanks with makeshift
"dozer-mount" hedgecutters, and directly implemented the new tactics in the
field.
No think-tanks. No research at the Aberdeen proving grounds. No statistics
and exhaustive analysis. They just thought it up and did it and it happened
to work.

As many of the posts have shown, there are so many variables in combat that
it is impossible to apply any neat categorization or standardization of
tactics. Warfare abounds with happy accidents, and what works today might be
disastrous tomorrow (and vice/versa).
I think Patton said(paraphrasing and probably naming the wrong source again)
"A mediocre plan executed immediately is better than a briliant plan
executed later."
Hit hard, hit first, and where they least expect it, and you can make up for
a lot of doctrinal weaknesses.
On the other hand, if you're talking about a set piece slugathon between
comarable forces, then it comes down to sheer mass, attrition, and whoever's
left when the dust clears.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 14:49:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 13:49:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <B96EE599.67422%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B96EE599.67422%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m3sn1yqp9b.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
>
> Perhaps captured officers (or at least gentlebeings) are even given
> their parole.

How exactly does this work?  Does one promise not to fight against
one's captor ever again, or simply for a time period, or until the end
of the current engagement, or until one has journeyed back home,
or...?  I've considered it pretty rotten that US soldiers are not
allowed to give their parole and get back home, but perhaps that's
just me.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I don't want to achieve immortality through my work.  I want to achieve
it by not dying.                                          --Woody Allen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 15:03:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 14:03:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <m3sn1yqp9b.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <B96EEFF4.6744B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 1:48 PM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> How exactly does this work?  Does one promise not to fight against
> one's captor ever again, or simply for a time period, or until the end
> of the current engagement, or until one has journeyed back home,
> or...?  I've considered it pretty rotten that US soldiers are not
> allowed to give their parole and get back home, but perhaps that's
> just me.

I'm not sure.  Naturally, it will depend on ones opponent.  Do the Joes have
a class with the same sense of honor as the Imperial aristocracy?  Perhaps
Imperial nobility and Zhodani adepts share some common standards of honor
and paroles are granted for the duration of hostilites.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 15:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Aug  1 14:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Character Conversions
Message-ID: <Springmail.0994.1028235993.0.26126500@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>

Paul Walker asked:
> 
> Has anyone ever come up with a good character
> conversion system?  I mean one that allows for
> conversion to CT, MT, TNE, T4, GT, and T20.
> 
> I know that some of these are very similar (MT
> & T4),
> but what about the others?

Some of the systems and skill sets are so different, I'm not sure if they can
all be consolidated. I've just finished converting a Zho generated from the CT
Zho supplement into GT and he's practically god-like (rolled incredibly well
back in '87 for psionics).

The GT conversion process, IMO, is overly generous to highly experienced
CT/TNE characters with upper-end stats.

Then again, I've played this guy through 5 long-term campaigns. Great for solo
runs but a bit overpowering with other, more youthful characters.

David Smart

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 15:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Thu Aug  1 14:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <3D480612.20345.F70592@localhost>
References: <3D46C8CE.8734.1C2B394@localhost> <3D480612.20345.F70592@localhost>
Message-ID: <02073117152800.00606@linux>

> That could be a bit tricky, considering that HG has no conversions for
> volume to mass. Using those from MT or FF&S seems a little pointless as
> they use different assumptions. The real difference would be that heavy
> armour would be less attractive, especially at lower TLs.

	Exactly.. which means that specialized ships ala battlecruisers (hms hood)
and fighter carriers could be viable and even cost effective. Given that 
there is never enough power or thrust....one must strike a balance to use 
what you have to be efficient. 
	I have to admit that I don't use high guard anymore (I am returning to 
gaming after a 15 year absence). I found a rule set I like with Bruce 
Macintosh's military combat system. I think it is better than hg 2nd ed. 
	Sorry if I came across as argumentive. With so many differrent rule sets
(ct/mt/tne/t4/gurps/t5/t20...etc.), I guess that the game of traveller is 
more a matter of background assumptions than a set of rules.And everybody has 
different ideas of how the universe should look and act.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 15:11:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Thu Aug  1 14:11:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
In-Reply-To: <20020801123223.5AA10451A@mo130uhou.palm.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0208011409330.15910-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>

On Thu, 1 Aug 2002, Mark Urbin wrote:

> Rob Davenport <rgd@infinet.com> wrote:
> >	Ed Wood's "Starship Troopers"
>
> Kenji Schwartz gave a good rant compairing ST to an Ed Wood movie.
> You can find it on my SciFi sig quote page.

Found it:

"IMHO, if we resurrected Ed Wood, and gave him the same budget to do Plan
9 From Outer Space as Verhoeven had to do Starship Troopers, I think we'd
have a contender on our hands. The eye candy would likely be just as good,
and the story about on a par." -- Kenji Schwarz on the Traveller Mailing
List.

I don't think he's that far off the mark.  :)

Rob




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 15:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu Aug  1 14:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <B96EE599.67422%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020801211106.5B7CE279A0@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/01/02 at 01:18 PM,  Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
said:

>on 8/1/02 12:58 PM, Paul Walker at traveller_tv@yahoo.com wrote: > 
>> ObTrav:  Are there any "Rules" of war between the 3I
>> and Zho's?  On either side, and who enforces them?
>> 

>Rules only in the sense of mutually agreed upon ones (treaties) which
>govern the conduct of war.  Typically, these are mutually beneficial,
>such as those rules governing the treatment of prisoners,
>noncombatant, etc.  That is not to say that each side may have it's
>rules as well, for no other reason than "we don't do that sort of
>thing in the Imperial Army".

IMTU...

The Imperium as set up "Rules of War" that apply to members of the
Imperium, and they enforce them, as they see fit, with Imperial
forces. Because the Imperium is ruled by men, not by laws, the Rules
of War are also whatever the men in charge say they are, but there are
a number of customary rules that the Gentlemen of the Imperium
generally subscribe to: No weapons of mass destruction (nukes,
biologicals, near-c rocks, etc), no genocide, limits on valid targets,
etc. 

When the Imperium deals with outsiders, all bets
are...potentially...off. However, the nobles of the Imperium are loath
to abandon their own rules even then, and generally won't unless the
other side does first. If, for example, an opponent doesn't engage in
slagged planet war against the Imperium, then neither does the
Imperium. Over time these conventions evolve into "unwritten rules"
between opponents, and as long as the cultures remain the same those
unwritten rules ("Dropping a rock on them just isn't cricket, old
boy!") will remain in effect.

What these unwritten rules are is up to you, but personally, I use
17th and 18th European rules concerning ransoms, hostages, pledges,
prisoner exchanges, not attacking non-combatants, fighting away from
civilian areas. and so on. Civilizated states abide by them,
barbarians don't.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 15:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Thu Aug  1 14:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <158.11a2925f.2a77b127@aol.com>
References: <158.11a2925f.2a77b127@aol.com>
Message-ID: <02073100275101.01008@linux>

On Tuesday 30 July 2002 05:06 am, you wrote:
> >This sounds like comparing apples and oranges........
>
> well yes, that was my whole point.  optimization can be had in the real
> (our) world, but in the traveller universe there's not much optimization to
> be had.
>
> >base acceleration and agility on displacement, NOT mass. Massive objects
> >(heavy-armor) will be slower and more sluggish unless equipped with
> >big-thrust engines, which means more fuel < more mass again > .
> > Optimization in this case counts.
>
> I completely agree.  but since traveller doesn't operate this way, now we
> are _really_ talking apples and oranges, and have changed the subject as
> well from traveller ship optimization to house rules.  in traveller, there
> are no optimization opportunities here.

	Then I humbly suggest that the rules for realistic thrusters ala 'hard 
times' or FF&S1 be followed in order for the Traveller universe to more 
closely mimic what we observe in the Real World tm. However I fully concede 
to you as long as ct or high guard is used.

> >Remember, military
> >spending is a hole that does not advance a world's economic growth, so it
> >must be kept to a minimum. Optimization Counts.
>
> ah yes, military spending.  but have you noticed that money is not at all
> the limiting factor in naval construction?  and even if it were, it's not
> the factor you make it out to be.  in the united states today, 250 million
> citizens contribute $300 billion or so annually in defense spending --
> that's $1200 from each man, woman, child, and illegal alien.  trillion
> credit squadron states that each imperial citizen contributes an average of
> 500Cr towards their navy -- I don't think that that is at all unreasonable,
> especially given that their military is primarily naval.  if anything it's
> too low, but it's still enough to allow the spinward marches to pay for
> about 2500 200kton battleships.  that's a lot of hardware, enough to put,
> what, ten battleships in each and every imperial spinward marches system. 
> what significant optimization can be had here?  there's some, but not much.

 hmmm... I must examine this .... after applying exchange rates and figuring 
the costs of support facilities, supplies and auxiliaries ( not to mention 
graft and 400$ hammers)

> >Also by using 'realistic'
> >thrust agents, fuel use becomes a major factor in fleet actions,
>
> as an aside, yeah, I suppose so.  but I subscribe completely to gary
> gygax's idea:  "More 'realistic' combat systems could certainly have been
> included here, but they have no real part in a game for a group of players
> having an exciting adventure."


Here is the schwerpunkt. Do people play traveller as a wargame...or do they 
play traveller as a RPG.?  How wonderful that there exists a game that can do 
both well.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 15:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Aug  1 14:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CE0@USCHM203>

"John T. Kwon" wrote:

>I think I see a pattern here...

>long time Traveller player...
>joins the military (some of us wished we did)...
>maybe even the Marines, (but Ft. Benning School For Boys is 
>OK)
>probably infantry...
>could be Navy, though...
>fiendish affection for small arms...
>ends up as a writer (gasp!) or a programmer (have to pay the 
>bills) or a lawyer!

>It almost looks like we saw our initial career paths in the 
>LBBs, and when we mustered out, we went and got "ordinary" 
>jobs.

LOL. It certainly crossed my mind. Oddly enough, I almost never played a
Marine character when I was younger. Had my heart set on West Point, but
didn't have the grades.

After "mustering out", I spent alot of time doing the usual PC thing,
hanging around in pubs looking for something exciting to do.

SPOILER ALERT
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Unfortunately, though I met many fascinating (and in some cases possibly
alien) characters, I was never asked to rescue a senator from an Imperial
prison hulk, reunite a Chirper with his siblings, discover a secret Zhodani
base, lead a trade mission to uncharted territory, investigate a
megacorporation, or run into "Grandfather". (actually, I think I might have
seen him after a particularly long bout of controlled substance indulgence
in New York --- might have just been a stone gargoyle on 3rd Avenue though).

The closest thing I ever did that could actually be considered "adventuring"
was driving a cab while in college. I'd rather be nosing around pyramids on
Yorbund than do THAT for a living again. Statistically, you'd be safer as an
Army Ranger.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 15:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Aug  1 14:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <sd494643.049@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
References: <sd494643.049@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
Message-ID: <20020802075436.A11303@freeman.little-possums.net>

Jeff D. Greenly wrote:
> I thought I would chime in, briefly, because I am of the opinion
> that Mr. Fly simply doesn't get it despite what the true warrior
> types on the TML have been (very patiently) explaining. TML hasn't
> been this interesting in a while!

In my estimation, the signal-to-noise ratio took an extreme dive since
Mr. Fly started posting :/


> I think that a massed assault by fighters, assault shuttles or other
> small craft in conjunction with light and medium ships of the line is a
> perfectly viable and certainly historically proven means of depriving
> the enemy of his capital ships.

I think I can sum up the counterargument: N3V3R H@PP3N!!1!

Besides, who is more suicidal in entering such a battle: the fighter
crew, some of whom will die in achieving victory; or the capital ship
crew, *all* of whom will die *pointlessly*?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <B96EEFF4.6744B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B96EEFF4.6744B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m3d6t2qlgr.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> 
> > How exactly does this work?  Does one promise not to fight against
> > one's captor ever again, or simply for a time period, or until the
> > end of the current engagement, or until one has journeyed back
> > home, or...?  I've considered it pretty rotten that US soldiers
> > are not allowed to give their parole and get back home, but
> > perhaps that's just me.
> 
> I'm not sure.  Naturally, it will depend on ones opponent.  Do the
> Joes have a class with the same sense of honor as the Imperial
> aristocracy?  Perhaps Imperial nobility and Zhodani adepts share
> some common standards of honor and paroles are granted for the
> duration of hostilites.

How did it work historically?  What forms of parole were granted?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
So Microsoft's invented the ASCII equivalent to ugly ink spots that
appear on your letter when your pen is malfunctioning.
        --Greg Andrews, about Microsoft's way to encode apostrophes

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Who Should Have Directed Starship Troopers?
References: <200208010008.LUH03387@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D49B311.B90AA08@mindspring.com>

"John T. Kwon" wrote:
> 
> Yes, I'm sure now it should have been John Waters.
> 
> And Divine should have played Sergeant Zim...
> ________________
> "I am Weasel!"
>
You're scaring me John.


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Why keep on enacting laws when we already have more than we can break.          
                             -Unknown

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:26:02 2002
Subject: Common TL (was Re: [TML] sword vs shotgun)
References: <6f.2b5bca38.2a79e68c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D49B516.D6ED825@mindspring.com>

GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Rupert Boleyn writes:
> 
> >Bear in mind that when CT was written anything over about TL12 was
> >pretty uncommon.
> 
> And should still be, frankly. One of MTs mistakes (laid firmly at the feet of
> DGP) was that suddenly everyone was using TL15 equipment, flying TL15
> starships, and eating TL15 food. And shopping at 'G'.
> 
> Now I realize that a number of the TL15 worlds are true powerhouses of
> production, but asking Glisten to keep half the Marches in gadgets is asking
> a bit much of the (already much abused) economic model...
> 
> GC
> 

Glisten keeps Glisten subsector and portions of the Trojan Reach sector in TL 15 gadgets. Soon they
will be keeping Forine/District 268 in TL 15 missiles ;p

-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Why keep on enacting laws when we already have more than we can break.          
                             -Unknown

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:27:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:27:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <memo.528804@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <m3d6t2qlgr.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
> How did it work historically?  What forms of parole were granted?

The whole thing worked on the principle of 'an officer and a gentleman' 
and the fact that honour was paramount and no gentleman would break his 
word.

Various levels of parole could be granted. An officer might give his 
parole not to escape, and be permitted to wander freely, but within 
bounds, around the place he was being held. He usually had to be back by 
nightfall, or a set time, and sleep in the premises provided. He might be 
limited to a castle, or to the surrounding village, or whatever. He might 
even be permitted to go horseback riding, perhaps with an escort.

Sometimes officers were permitted to return home, having given their 
parole not to bear arms against their captors. This might be conditional, 
in that once an officer of equivalent rank had been sent back the other 
way, he would be free to enter the fray again. Basically a prisoner 
exchange, only one would be allowed to go home in advance on the 
understanding that he wouldn't fight until the exchange had been 
completed.

It was always a personal matter, not one of policy. If you came home 'on 
parole' it was up to you to inform your superiors that you were not 
available to fight until the terms of your parole had been met.

There's a fine fictional example in one of the Hornblower novels. 
Hornblower, who'd been captured by the Spanish, had given his parole and 
was permitted to wander the village in which he was being held. One day he 
was on a nearby headland and spotted some fishermen in difficulties in 
stormy seas. He was allowed to take a boat out and rescue them, but 
conditions were such that the whole party were swept out to sea - where 
they were picked up by an English warship. The captain was all for 
welcoming him back with open arms (and locking up the French seamen), but 
Hornblower not only insisted that, as civilian fishermen, they should be 
let loose, he also demanded to go back too, so as to keep his given word 
not to attempt to escape from the village.

Other ranks (enlisted personnel), not being 'gentlemen,' could not give 
parole, so just got locked up!

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20020731221815.00a378c0@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <3D49B623.C79BF0B5@mindspring.com>

Hal wrote:
> 
> Another thing to consider?
> 
> When you are in a war against an enemy you and your compatriots HATE with a
> consuming passion - you may find that the problem isn't in getting your
> fighter crews to go out against your enemy - but in keeping them from being
> TOO aggressive.
> 
> One other thing that is often overlooked here when it comes to psychology
> of war?  Being in a fighter platform instead of a ship's laser power plant
> generator room - permits the fighter pilot to feel that his actions *DO*
> count in the battle.
> 
> A final comment on this before I have to go to work:
> 
> If you have a large enough pool of pilots for use in the battles ahead, and
> it has become naval doctrine to use fighters in a swarm mode - naval
> trainers will be indoctrinating their fighter pilots to accept the fact
> that 100 fighters lives in exchange for 1,000 enemy lives is a fair
> trade.  It takes months to build a hull of note.  It takes weeks to build a
> fighter platform.  There are More Class B starports able to churn out
> fighters than there are class A starports churning out capital ships.  I
> really think someone should take the time and effort to build up a
> "fictional" sector for use in a massive campaign over the net...  Hmmmm -
> HIGH GUARD and TCS rules anyone? ;)
> 
>               Hal
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Why fictional? How about the FFW encompassing all of the marches. 
-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Why keep on enacting laws when we already have more than we can break.          
                             -Unknown

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <20020801182128.9068d26d087748de93de63949d36b6f5.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>One need only to look at the Battle of the Atlantic to see how much of
>an effect esprit de corps and loyalty go towards men willingly going
>into grave danger. I may be slightly off on my numbers, but the U-Boat
>service saw the highest losses of ANY service branch, across all
>nationalities during WW II. Something like 80% of all U-boatmen were KIA
>towards the end of the war, with the average life expectancy being a
>week. 

Toward the end, yes.  But remember, the life expectancy was changing
constantly through-out the war.  An aggressive U-Boat skipper would almost
assuredly die on his first patrol in 1945 while a similar man in 1940 would
have racked-up patrols and kills for close to a year without much risk.

>Funny how there were more volunteers than the service needed right up
>to the end of the war, and there was never a single incidence of mutiny
>(although there was ONE incident where a u-boat captain was executed for
>cowardice in the face of the enemy. This was based on the testimony of
>his crew and his own logs!) The crews KNEW things were rough.There were
>a lot more u-boats missing than ones that came back to port, and of the
>ones that did come back in, very few had any kills to their credit as
>the war dragged on. They knew that the time of the Paukenschlag and the
>Gray Wolves were over. But they went for Onkel Karl and they went for
>glory, and they went because they were the cream of the crop and they
>knew it, and they died in STAGGERING numbers. 

I think you are overestimating how much the crewmembers knew at the time.  A
lot of U-Boats would be missing from the subpens at Brest or Lorient when a
sub got back, but that could be explain by saying the ships were on patrol.
They probably did know a lot more about losses then Allied submariners,
because the U-Boats were too chatty on the radios for their own good (A
fatal weakness for Karl Donitz's force even without Ultra.  At least one
U-Boat was sunk within an hour of radioing in to U-Boat HQ, after being
detected by radio direction finders.  The ironic part of the saga was the
sub's message.).

Also, officers for the U-Boat fleet often were not volunteers, or were not
given the chance to - Officers of the Kriegsmarine were EXPECTED to go to
whatever duty station they were assigned without comment.  When Martin
Middlebrook interviewed some veterans for his book _Convoy_, the U-Boat
officers often were surprised at the question of volunteering.  Some of the
crewmembers of the U-Boats also seemed to have "volunteered" under less then
voluntary circumstances

>I think that a massed assault by fighters, assault shuttles or other
>small craft in conjunction with light and medium ships of the line is a
>perfectly viable and certainly historically proven means of depriving
>the enemy of his capital ships. All it takes is one hit and you're
>halfway there. Stop and think. A big ship, crewed by thousands and
>costing hundreds of millions of credits can be taken out of action by a
>force of craft costing a tenth and crewed by 1-3 men each. Combine that
>fighter attack with coups d'grace administered by a number of cruisers,
>destroyers, frigates and so on, and you have a very flexible multi-role
>force for a lot less than a fleet full of big ships. There's a reason
>the US Navy (as well as most other modern fleets!) is comprised the way
>it is. Learn from it.

"Most"?  I would be careful about that.

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

 My Sale List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
 My Want List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:31:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:31:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <20020801182132.8dc5803e76f94f1f98d7b72b3352174c.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>> >The USN's Devastators had been in service ~7 years and was an 
>> obselescent 
>> >design too, although not as bad as the Swordfish(1).
>> 
>> The Swordfish was not bad....And for the role it was intended, it was
>> probably better then the TBD!  Which is a sad commentary on US naval
>> aviation more then anything else.
>
>OTOH, the Stringbag was never sent into battle against carrier-based 
>fighters.  The TBD pilots at Midway, meanwhile, had to try to survive 
>without fighter cover against the A6M Zero.  Hardly a fair contest (of 
>course, any military leader who tries to fight war _fairly_ isn't doing 
>the job correctly).

True.  The Japanese pilots would have still mopped the floor with any
torpedo bombers.  Then again, the Stringbag did not have to serve in the
Pacific.  Good thing too, since the Japanese managed to massacre the torpedo
bombers the British DID have in the early days of the Pacific War
(Wildebeasts, IIRC.).

FYI, the Brewster Buffalo has such a bad reputation because of its poor
combat performance against the Japanese.  Yet we are talking about the same
fighter that managed to beat the Grummen Wildcat in the US Navy's
competition for a carrier fighter just before World War 2.  If Brewster had
not proven so inept in actually building and upgrading the fighter, then we
would be seeing Buffalos tangling with Zeros at Midway....

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

 My Sale List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
 My Want List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <76.201d4ff6.2a7b1285@aol.com>

 >>  >They might want more choices besides Dreadnaughts.
 >>
 >> Show me your choices.  I'd love to see 'em.
 >
 >Low-end ships so you can do all your jobs within your budget maybe?

I understand that, but there's the question of what your enemy is doing.  
Consider the extreams -- if your goal is to win engagements then you'll want 
a few expensive capital ships, but if you want to "do all the jobs" then 
you'll want a herd of warm bodies (as it were).  Between the extreams is the 
balance -- but where is it?  I think it's way over in the "win engagements" 
side.  If you "cover all the bases" with warm bodies but have to flee every 
time the heavyweight enemy shows up then what good is that?  There is no 
substitute for victory, and to get that victory you need the heavyweights and 
you need more of them than your enemy.

 >Patrol ships and tankers and whatever you plan to escort the talkers with.

If by patrol you mean scouts, then yes.  But if you mean general policing 
then I'd think that would be a local police matter and not a fleet matter.  
If I'm an admiral at Jewell looking at 1000 Zhodie capital ship in Cronor, 
and I hear about some pirates at Enope, I'd have to set priorities and ask 
Wochiers to deal with it.  Since imminent war is not a constant threat, if 
some patrols were desperately needed by local governments then I'd send some 
screening vessels to deal with the problem and then return.

As for tankers (?), if I had any I'd just keep them with the fleet.

>The USN,
>for example, has other ships than carriers or attack subs (whichever you
>consider to be the capital ship). Most navies have some high-end combat
>ships and low-end workhorses.

That's because of real-world issues regarding weapon load capacities, size vs 
speed, air / surface / sub environment requirements, hull-shape requirements, 
and dozens of other factors, make such specialization necessary and 
effective.  These issues don't transfer well to a Traveller universe.  In 
Traveller everyone can go just as fast as the next guy, they all can carry 
the same weapons, there's no limitation on size or hull configuration, and so 
on.  Would you put an Ageis system on a cargo ship?  You can do it in 
Traveller, and it works.  Would you put ten inch armor on a destroyer?  You 
can do it in Traveller, and it works.  Effective combat ships will all tend 
towards the same hull/weapons/defenses configuration, and specialization will 
become mere limitation.

My Spinward Marches Colonial Fleet has supply vessels, hospital ships, 
minesweepers, and other stuff in addition to its capital vessels.  But they 
are all sideshows, and minor elements of the fleet -- maybe 5% of the total 
tonnage.  I intend to win the major engagements first -- I'll clean up any 
leftover messes after I win.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <bf.241eecb7.2a7a4368@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D49BA6B.37759812@mindspring.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> 
>  >>asking hundreds of them at a time to give up their lives all
>  >>at once, just to make a tactic work, in one segment of a
>  >>single battle, is not an insignificant outlay for THEM.
>  >>(push button) "go do this, guys."  (lights
>  >>flash) "ok."  it doesn't work that way.
>  >
>  >See the battle of Midway.  The low level torpedo attack
>  >planes that sacrificed themselves to Japanese anti-aircraft
>  >fire so that the dive bombers would have a chance.
> 
> Yes, with a huge Japanese fleet threatening their homeland and only them
> standing between the yellow peril and their families.  It was not, however, a
> standard tactic, employed "because they'll tolerate it".

Read Miracle at Midway a few years back. IIRC the torpedo planes were the ones EXPECTED to take out
the jap ships. But communication, navigation and planning errors resulted in the attacks being
uncoordinated and the TBY's? wound up being slaughtered by the jap CAP and the ships. When the dive
bombers showed up there were no planes in a position to oppose their attack.


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Why keep on enacting laws when we already have more than we can break.          
                             -Unknown

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMEKKCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com>
>
>yes!  Yes!  YESSSS!!!!!
>
>I have arrived.  I have my first keyboard kill.  And
>from Glenn, too, an honored old timer and regular.
>
>I think I'll print it out on paper suitable for framing.

Don't get cocky, kid.  We'll teach ya the secret handshake and stuff at
BayCon or if ya come down ta San Jose on a game day.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:55:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:55:33 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Acceptable losses
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEKKCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
>
>No, you don't understand.  Every unit must have a Texan (known as
>Tex), a Brooklyner, a racist Southerner, an effete intellectual, a Jew
>and half-a-dozen Midwesterners.  At least, acc. to the war movies:-)

The war movies, of course, took that demography from Norman Mailer's The
Naked and the Dead.  (The man who recommended it to me was a decorated NCO
veteran of the Pacific campaign, and he said that it was very true to his
experience.  It is indeed a great book.)

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:56:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:56:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  juries
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Flykiller@aol.com

someone wrote:
>Amateur juries
>seem to me to be ill equipped to handle many kinds of cases.

Flykiller@aol.com replied:
>True.  And irrelevant to why they exist.  Juries aren't meant to be
>professional, quite the opposite.  Juries are meant to be a last and final
>check and balance against governmental power over individual citizens.  The
>government can't put anyone in jail unless they can get a bunch of amateur
>citizens to agree.  It's preferable to the alternative.

If you can't explain your case so that twelve ordinary people understand it,
then you don't understand your case adequately.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:56:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:56:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
>
>Sure, not now: a video game, even a military simulator, is simply not
>possible of fully-simulating flight, combat &c.  But thousands of
>years in the future that's not an issue.  If you can damp inertia and
>fake gravity, you can fake the motions and sensations of combat.  If
>you can broadcast in 3D, you can generate a photo-realistic world
>outside the phony cockpit windows.  The only thing you _cannot_
>simulate is the fear of death--and real military training cannot AFAIK
>do that either; only actual flight time can do that.

"I'm sorry, but it appears that Cadet Uhl was killed by the simulator.  In
the simulation, he accelerated his fighter to very high speed, then crashed
it into the drives of an enemy battleship.  The simulation ran its gravitics
to simulate the crash and increased the temperature to simulate the fire
when his L-Hyd tanks exploded.  The combination of being crushed and burned
caused injuries that we were unable treat effectively.  Next!"

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:57:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:57:06 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Acceptable losses
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>
>
>"You know what the difference was between a rich Yankee and a rich
>Southerner? The rich Yankee paid someone to take his place in the army, and
>the rich Southerner outfitted his own regiment."

"An Aramisian doesn't mind if the Vargr live close, as long as they don't
get uppity.  A Reginan doesn't mind if the Vargr get uppity, as long as they
don't live close."

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:58:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:58:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
>There have been references to Imperial rules concerning
>warfare - are there really any in canon?  No use of nukes by
>non-Imperial forces?  Meson guns?  No genocide?  Eh?

Striker and, I think, MegaTraveller Imperial Encyclopedia, state the
Imperial rules of war.  Here's my view of them.

1.  These "rules" are not a code for combatants.  They are guidelines to aid
local Imperial officials in exercising their discretion about whether to
intervene in a conflict or not.  They are not written down, and they don't
bind anybody.

2.  These rules only apply to situations in which all combatants are
Imperial citizens, or in the employ of Imperial citizens.

3.  The Imperium may choose to intervene if nuclear weapons are in the
possession or use of either side.  Query whether californium or uranium
rounds count as "nuclear" weapons.  Other weapons of mass destruction may
trigger Imperial intervention.

4.  The Imperium may choose to intervene if there is unreasonable off-world
influence in a matter involving a single member state.

5.  War involving space and star craft is permitted, as long as interstellar
commerce is not unduly affected.

"Unduly," "unreasonable," "choose" -- this are only guidelines for Imperial
officials to consider in exercising their discretion.  The rules of war will
not support any sort of legal action (war being, after all, the opposite of
law).

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 17:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug  1 16:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <bf.241eecb7.2a7a4368@aol.com> <3D49BA6B.37759812@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <001801c239b1$63165dc0$cb16bd50@martinjd>

>
> Read Miracle at Midway a few years back. IIRC the torpedo planes were the
ones EXPECTED to take out
> the jap ships. But communication, navigation and planning errors resulted
in the attacks being
> uncoordinated and the TBY's? wound up being slaughtered by the jap CAP and
the ships. When the dive
> bombers showed up there were no planes in a position to oppose their
attack.

That's pretty much what I thought/said...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 17:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Thu Aug  1 16:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
In-Reply-To: <sd495bcc.012@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020801180714.00a7fc80@minn.net>

"Jeff D. Greenly" <jgreenly@hsc.wvu.edu> wrote:
>Would a world that has 80% of its surface covered by water, a dense
>nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, and one moon that is large enough to exert a
>tidal effect tend to be more or less climatically active? Assume
>moderate (terran-normal) vulcanism and a fairly non-polluting early TL
>aqua/agricultural society. Also assume standard polar ice caps and
>rotation around 20 deg. off the plane of the ecliptic. I'll welcome any
>and all comments...

Jeff, I think you may be spending a little too much time at the keyboard.

Go outside, take a walk, relax. Enjoy the weather. ;-)


Les

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P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
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"From now on, everyone in Wisconsin will be named Wally."
				-- Colin Mockerie
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 17:09:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  1 16:09:22 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <200208012308.LWB03316@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>Besides, who is more suicidal in entering such a battle: the 
>fighter crew, some of whom will die in achieving victory; or 
>the capital ship crew, *all* of whom will die *pointlessly*?

Regardless of the ship types, small or large, space combat 
has to be fairly lethal to the crew - if we take the Crew-1 
at its basic form.

If Side A wins the battle, does this mean they attempt to 
salvage some Side B ships?  Is there a nuclear scuttle option 
for capital ships to prevent enemy use?  Or would Side A 
plant nuclear demolition charges on the wrecks of Side B to 
ensure that damaged ships are not recovered?
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 17:20:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug  1 16:20:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <76.201d4ff6.2a7b1285@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c239b3$7174bb80$cb16bd50@martinjd>

>  >Low-end ships so you can do all your jobs within your budget maybe?
>
> I understand that, but there's the question of what your enemy is doing.
> Consider the extreams -- if your goal is to win engagements then you'll
want
> a few expensive capital ships, but if you want to "do all the jobs" then
> you'll want a herd of warm bodies (as it were).  Between the extreams is
the
> balance -- but where is it?  I think it's way over in the "win
engagements"
> side.

Engagemnents of what sort? Enough commerce raiders can cripple your economy
(Battle of the Atlantic etc) despite your excellent battle fleet. If the
engagements you need to win are escort/raider ones, then you need many ships
to cover the area, but ones good enough to beat or deter the raiders.

> If you "cover all the bases" with warm bodies but have to flee every
> time the heavyweight enemy shows up then what good is that?  There is no
> substitute for victory, and to get that victory you need the heavyweights
and
> you need more of them than your enemy.

You need greater concentration of force at the critical point. That can be
done with less ships, better handled and supported.

That said, victory is not necessarily gained by defeating the enemy battle
fleet. If you do that, but he scrubs your industrial worlds with planetary
raider ships, or kills your economy with commerce raiders, then you may not
have won at all.


>
>  >Patrol ships and tankers and whatever you plan to escort the talkers
with.
>
> If by patrol you mean scouts, then yes.  But if you mean general policing
> then I'd think that would be a local police matter and not a fleet matter.

I mean patrol ships to defeat piracy, commerce raiding and smuggling, to
catch enemy intelligence ships and recon vessels, to prevent the stockpiling
of forward supply bases, to gain intelligence, to show the flag and keep
systems in line....

> If I'm an admiral at Jewell looking at 1000 Zhodie capital ship in Cronor,
> and I hear about some pirates at Enope, I'd have to set priorities and ask
> Wochiers to deal with it.  Since imminent war is not a constant threat, if
> some patrols were desperately needed by local governments then I'd send
some
> screening vessels to deal with the problem and then return.

My point is that a fleet needs more than capital ships. You have to HAVE the
anti-pirate ships to be able to do your job.

>
> As for tankers (?), if I had any I'd just keep them with the fleet.

Tankers and logistics ships. They need to move around to be useful; they
have to be replenished and returned to the fleet. Just keeping the fleet in
missiles is a huge undertaking. Logistics vessels, by definition, have to
move around to be any use. But my point, again, was that you have to have
some.

>
> >The USN,
> >for example, has other ships than carriers or attack subs (whichever you
> >consider to be the capital ship). Most navies have some high-end combat
> >ships and low-end workhorses.
>
> That's because of real-world issues regarding weapon load capacities, size
vs
> speed, air / surface / sub environment requirements, hull-shape
requirements,
> and dozens of other factors, make such specialization necessary and
> effective.  These issues don't transfer well to a Traveller universe.  In
> Traveller everyone can go just as fast as the next guy, they all can carry
> the same weapons, there's no limitation on size or hull configuration, and
so
> on.  Would you put an Ageis system on a cargo ship?  You can do it in
> Traveller, and it works.  Would you put ten inch armor on a destroyer?
You
> can do it in Traveller, and it works.  Effective combat ships will all
tend
> towards the same hull/weapons/defenses configuration, and specialization
will
> become mere limitation.

Specialization allows you to afford more ships optimized to a certain role.
You need X patrol ships, Y cruisers, etc. To fulful your low-level
requirements and your fleet screening duties. To be couriers and recon
vessels... by making some of them low-end ships for low-risk misisons, you
have more money available for enough capital ships to do their job.

>
> My Spinward Marches Colonial Fleet has supply vessels, hospital ships,
> minesweepers, and other stuff in addition to its capital vessels.  But
they
> are all sideshows, and minor elements of the fleet -- maybe 5% of the
total
> tonnage.  I intend to win the major engagements first -- I'll clean up any
> leftover messes after I win.

Where will you fight these engagements? How will you make sure you have the
choice of where and when to meet the enemy fleet? What happens if he feints
and threatens with the battle fleet in being and floods your systems with
commerce raiders to break up your logistics chain?





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 17:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Thu Aug  1 16:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <20020801232333.17172.qmail@web11308.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
This tactic is presented not as a desperation move,
but an ordinary one to be implemented if said navy can
put up with it.  To which I responded that 
no fighter pilot community would tolerate it.  Even if
the attacking squadron is originally 1000, after two
capital ships they'll be combat ineffective 
using this tactic, and there will be NO volunteers to
replace them until the tactic 
is discarded.
END QUOTE

But wouldn't more people die if it was cap ship vs.
cap ship?

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://digital.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Digital How To
- Get the best out of your PC!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 17:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  1 16:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <200208012327.LWC00112@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"MJ Dougherty" says
>Where will you fight these engagements? How will you make 
>sure you have the choice of where and when to meet the enemy 
>fleet? What happens if he feints and threatens with the 
>battle fleet in being and floods your systems with
>commerce raiders to break up your logistics chain?

As I believe was mentioned before, those little fighters make 
excellent raiders - You could probably build fairly small, 
fairly cheap ones that would, especially in numbers, lay 
waste to the typical merchant ships.  The ship that carried 
them might not be very large, and could remain far outsystem.

Let me think about this for a while...
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 17:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug  1 16:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <43.f41b3de.2a7a45aa@aol.com> <026001c23992$31805e60$18130050@amoreton>
Message-ID: <007001c239b5$5c29c3e0$cb16bd50@martinjd>

>
>
>
> > >HMS Glow-worm ramming the Admiral Hipper comes to mind. The destroyer's
> >  >mass
> >  >was literally the only thing that might hurt the cruiser, and if she
> wasn't
> >  >hurt then the convoy would be massacred. Her skipper knew his ship
would
> >  >sink; he knew many (but probably not all) of his crew would die. But
the
> >  >decision was made in the face of the enemy, for a clear goal - to save
> >  >hundreds of helpless merchant seamen. Would the crew have accepted an
> >  >Admiralty policy of "we're not giving you torpedoes. You're to close
and
> >  >ram, then sink"? In desperate times, some people actually would. But,
> say,
> >  >in 1934? Nope.
>
> Not to disagree with    the point of the comment but some details on the
> loss of HMS Glowworm  was not escorting a convoy at the time of the battle
> with the Hipper, she had been part of a minelaying sortie off the
Norwegian
> coast she became seperated from her consorts and came across on of the
> Hipper's escrting destroyers. In the prevailing bad weather the Glowworm
was
> forced into close action with the Hipper, the Hipper attempted to run down
> the Glowworm and then the Captain of the Glowworm  Lt Cmdr Gerald G Rooper
> deceided to Ram the Hipper he succeeded adn the impact carried away 120
feet
> of the hippers side plate and let in 528 tons of water , the Hipper
carried
> on with a 4 degree list and accomplished her mission. Many of the
Glowworms
> crew where saved by German vessels not including her captain who drowned
> while being rescued , he was postumously awarded the VC.

OOps. I stand corrected. I was confusing the incident with Sherbrooke's
action vs German cruisers.

> You may perhaps be confusing the Glowworm with 2 British Armed Merchant
> crusiers the Jarvis Bay as the lone escort of a convoy the Jarvis Bay a
> converted liner with about 6 obsolete 6 inch guns when the convoy
> encountered the Pocket Battleship Admiral Scheer heavily armoured and
armed
> with 6 11 inch guns . The Jarvis Bay charged the Admiral Scheer drawing
the
> Fire of the Scheer upon herself allowing the Convoy to scatter to safety
> .her Captain E S F Fegan was awarded the VC posthumously.

I wasn't confusing with the Jervis Bay incident, thanks for pointiong it
out - it stands as another example.

>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 17:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug  1 16:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <e6.2be0ca41.2a7a3051@aol.com> <m3ptx2twnf.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <00ca01c239b8$93015920$cb16bd50@martinjd>

> >
These fighters, BTW.

How are they getting to the battle area? By carrier?

I wonder if I can survive long enough to fly through your fighter screen and
kill the carrier with my meson guns/particle accelerators etc. If I kill
enough carriers, your fighters also die.

Or perhaps I can disrupt your chain of supply enough that you can't replace
the fighters you've lost, or the missiles they expend. Maybe I can avoid
contact until your fighters have to return to base, or until they've thinned
out enough by needing to rotate on station that I can slaughter them. (A
capital ship can remain at combat readiness for a LOT longer than a 2-man
fighter, and doesn't degrade as much over time).

Maybe my escorts and fighter screen can keep my capital ships unscrubbed
while I punch through to kill your carriers and support ships.

We seem to be assuming a straight fight between equal tonnages of fighters
and capital ships, both ready and willing to go. Like when does that sort of
thing happen?

We need also consider mobility, duration of readiness, concentration of
force...etc. If, instead of a "stand-up fight" we consider a longer-term,
wider-area situation - even just the "war-fighting" aspect - then I believe
that a fighter force cannot deliver what the war-fighters need.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:01:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:01:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Energy Blade and Meditation
Message-ID: <3D49CB95.D906C0CF@ameritech.net>

> Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 10:09:06 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Chris Tann <chris_tann@yahoo.com>
>
> Hi all,
>
> I rolled up a character for MT using TravGen Character generation,
> and picked two skills I can't find details on in MT or CT. Can
> someone please let me know what version of Trav they're in? If
> you could also send me a description, that would be great, and
> I'll see if I can convinve my referee to use them...
>
> Meditation
> Energy Blade
>
> I guess Energy Blade relates to a weapon, so details on that
> would be useful too.

These look like a homebrew attempt to use Traveller for a more Star
Warsey kind of game. Perhaps the author of the software in question
knows where they came from.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:02:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:02:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
References: <F137of0aYhHnKZ1nSIz0000ee76@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <00d301c239b9$457629a0$cb16bd50@martinjd>

Because, the airstrikes were cheaper

** And also, perhaps, because the airstikes were first. They could have a go
NOW. If they failed, there was a backup. But waitng for the battle line
might have let the Yamato slip through their fingers - bad weather, faulty
recon, whatever. Or some other crisis (hard to imagine what, but...) might
have drawn the battle line away.

To misquote from the Patton threat - better to do something NOW than
something better LATER


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Hamill)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #847 - 24 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20020731210410.11007.92126.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020802000733.27197.qmail@web21509.mail.yahoo.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

"Message: 8
From: Flykiller@aol.com
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 15:52:03 EDT
Subject: [TML] Acceptable losses
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

 >> 750 / what, 6 years? = 125 per year, about one
every three days.  
hardly
 >> the same as several hundred in one segment of one
line battle in 
one day.
 >
 >What about the whole "over the top" attitude of WWI?
Pouring 
thousands of 
 >lives into suicidal charges for far less gain than
trading a few 
hundred 
 >pilots for a capitol ship? And this was not a
desparation tactic, but 
was 
the 
 >"standard" tactic of the day. Sure I imagine that
the commanders on 
either 
 >side underestimated the potential loss of life, but
several hundred 
lives 
in 
 >one segment of one battle in one day is not as
perposterous as it 
sounds, 
 >when you compare it to infantry losses. How many
marines did the U.S. 
pour 
 >into islands like Iwo Jima and Okinawa in WWII? And
the U.S. was more 
or 
less 
 >winning the war at that stage.

Now that's a good answer and worthy of a good
response.  Let's see how 
well I 
do.

Leading up to WW1 and contributing to it was a vast
and actively 
advanced 
cultural attitude of "God, king and country".  War was
taught as being 
a 
noble and natural thing, and the ancient Greek
attitude of "It is good 
to die 
for one's country" was widely believed.  The concept
of evolution had 
been 
recently introduced, and the idea of competition
between nations and 
peoples 
was very popular.  England was defending its
established empire (on 
which the 
sun never set, a tremendous source of English pride),
Germany was 
determined 
to  expand and find its place in the sun and prove
themselves to the 
world, 
and the French as always felt they were just too
superior to lose.  
National 
pride everywhere was at its peak, and everyone was
ready.  The 
conditions for 
war were as perfect as they will ever be without
scientific 
brainwashing.  
When it came huge numbers said goodby to their mothers
and their 
numerous 
brothers and received the blessings of their priests
and rushed off to 
prove 
their manhood and their courage and their nationality
in this great 
opportunity of their time, thinking that this war
would be similar to 
the 
wars their fathers had fought and celebrated.

It wasn't.  It was a fixed slaughter.  No-one expected
what happened, 
no-one 
could conceive it, and all from the generals to the
privates were slow 
to 
recognize it and accept it.  "Just one more attack,
just one more push, 
and 
we can break through and be like the knights of old." 
Everyone was 
brave, 
but machine guns could mow down entire companies of
the bravest men who 
had 
ever been born.

Their enthusiasm was mowed down as well.  It took a
long time -- the 
enthusiasm had been engendered by generations of
education and cultural 
beliefs and previous survival of other wars --  but
when battles suck 
up 
100,000 men at a pop, for nothing, then even the most
patriotic 
competitors 
realize they're in a suckers game.  In the east the
Russians absorbed 
enormous casualties, then murdered their leaders and
withdrew from the 
war.  
The west, taking fewer casualties and being less
oppressed, still 
rebelled in 
its own way.  The French army actually revolted --
they didn't desert, 
but 
they refused to engage in any offensive action for a
while.  Most 
sections of 
the western front settled down to a routine of firing
off a few shells 
in the 
morning to satisfy their activity reports to their
superiors and then 
relaxing the rest of the day.  In the west battles
began to come only 
after 
enormous preparations and planning, showing the men
that "we can do 
this" 
with monstrously huge artillery bombardments, the
attitude always being 
"One 
more big push and we can finally have the war we
expected."  But it 
never 
happened.

After the war everyone, victors and losers alike, felt
betrayed and 
lied to.  
No-one was happy with the loss of half of an entire
generation.  The 
overriding attitude for decades afterwards was "Never
again."  Neville 
Chamberlain, that so-called appeaser, was a very
popular man in his 
time.

The WW1 over-the-top charge is not really comparable
to the tactic 
under 
discussion.  It was not a standard tactic for that
war, it was an 
inappropriate tactic engendered by ignorance and
generations of 
no-longer-relevant experience.  In the beginning men
did it seeking the 
kind 
of victory they had been led all their lives to
expect, and in the end 
they 
did it out of desperation, rote, and habit, still
seeking that victory.  
When 
(mind you) the _surviving victors_ finally realized
how misled and 
blind they 
had been for four years they turned violently against
what they had 
been 
taught and rejected it for decades.  Many still do to
this day.  NOW 
.... if 
you take hundreds of ambitious highly trained educated
and egotistical 
men 
(pilots are egotistical, they have to be) who are not
there to do grunt 
infantry work, and up-front tell them that their
standard ordinary 
everyday 
tactic will be to hurl themselves to their deaths by
the hundreds in 
the 
hope-against-hope that one or two of them might get
lucky and destroy a 
single capital ship ... well, they're going to race
through that whole 
four-year learning curve in one second and tell you no
way, and your 
pool of 
candidate pilots will dry up immediately.

there's leadership, and then there's armchair
generalship.  armchair 
generals 
that somehow wind up leading troops often get
fragged."

I'm sorry, but this has gotten rediculous. You go
around throwing the term "armchair general" around,
attempting to refute this point, when I don't think
you really know what the point is. The statement was
that at higher tech levels, fighters could damage or
"mission kill" capitol ships, but that the casualties
among the fighters would be high. In an intersteller
nation, with the resources of thousands of worlds,
some with populations many times larger than our own,
do you really think it would be so hard to recruit
vast numbers of qualified pilot types. Especially
since, in the real world, they almost always turn
viable candidates away from pilot training programs in
the USAF, and almost every other military in the
world? And then wash large numbers out, for almost
trivial reasons? It strains credibility to think the
Imperium would not be able to do this, not to mention
their opponents. 
The Zhodani would have no problem getting enough
people with the right manual dexterity and spatial
awareness to qualify. As for their attitude and
"obedience to orders", that is what the Tvarchedl is
for. Guaranteed to risk it all, for the "protection"
of the Consulate. The Vargr? A bit more problematic,
but they, as a race, seem to have even more of a
problem with "macho" a young humans do. I imagine if
you had a couple of charismatic senoir pilots, and
gave the fighters flashy paint jobs you could get a
fairly large number of Vargr to volunteer. And the
Sword Worlds? Almost tailored as a group where this
would be a viable tactic. I imaging you could get
thousands of the lower class youth on your average
Sword World planet to volunteer, to become one of the
"warrior elite", similar to the character played by
George Peppard in "The Blue Max". 
You have to think in terms of percentages, not actual
numbers, to determine your risk of becoming a casualty
in wartime. Many people who would gladly risk
themselves in air combat, even if the chances were
high that they would be injured or killed, would not
do the same in ground combat, even if the odds were
lower that they would be hurt. Something about being
able to influence your fate, if only slightly to the
better, and the sense of control that pilots have,
whether real or not, is a very large factor. 
As for the pilots being unreliable, well, that's what
the computer is for. If they try to sneak off in the
middle of the fight, their system locks itself down,
and returns the fighter to the carrier, or back to the
fight if it's capable of it.

Just my thoughts, 

John
jwdh71@yahoo.com



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] System Gen Help
Message-ID: <20020802001136.17476.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>

Help!

I am doing an extended system generation.  I rolled
for #6 to be the max orbit.  I also rolled for 2
captured planets.  One is in orbit 6.3 and the other
is in 6.0

Orbit 6 and 5 are both SGG's.  4 is the mainworld and
the habitable zone.

Is this legitimate?  Or do I need to move the captured
planet in orbit 6.0 to somewhere else.

Thanks.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
Message-ID: <131.11a94592.2a7b1a91@cs.com>

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In a message dated 8/1/02 3:04:45 PM Central Daylight Time, 
jgreenly@hsc.wvu.edu writes:


> Would a world that has 80% of its surface covered by water, a dense
> nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, and one moon that is large enough to exert a
> tidal effect tend to be more or less climatically active? Assume
> moderate (terran-normal) vulcanism and a fairly non-polluting early TL
> aqua/agricultural society. Also assume standard polar ice caps and
> rotation around 20 deg. off the plane of the ecliptic. I'll welcome any
> and all comments...
> 
> Jeff
> 

Since you've just pretty much described Earth (other than the dense 
atmosphere and the nonpolluting civilization) I'd say that, yes, it would be 
fairly climatically active. Indeed, the dense atmosphere would make for some 
hellacious storms (it might take a bit to get going, but it would take even 
longer to peter out.)

Doug Grimes

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 8/1/02 3:04:45 PM Central Daylight Time, jgreenly@hsc.wvu.edu writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Would a world that has 80% of its surface covered by water, a dense
<BR>nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, and one moon that is large enough to exert a
<BR>tidal effect tend to be more or less climatically active? Assume
<BR>moderate (terran-normal) vulcanism and a fairly non-polluting early TL
<BR>aqua/agricultural society. Also assume standard polar ice caps and
<BR>rotation around 20 deg. off the plane of the ecliptic. I'll welcome any
<BR>and all comments...
<BR>
<BR>Jeff
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>Since you've just pretty much described Earth (other than the dense atmosphere and the nonpolluting civilization) I'd say that, yes, it would be fairly climatically active. Indeed, the dense atmosphere would make for some hellacious storms (it might take a bit to get going, but it would take even longer to peter out.)
<BR>
<BR>Doug Grimes</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Law (Not at all Re: Patton)
Message-ID: <17f.bfe948b.2a7b2c91@aol.com>

John T. Kwon (aka "I am Weasel!") writes:

>There have been references to Imperial rules concerning 
>warfare - are there really any in canon?  No use of nukes by 
>non-Imperial forces?  Meson guns?  No genocide?  Eh?

The nuke prohibition is the main one stated, with the "massive ecological 
damage" and genocide statements sort of implied.

>The line from Apocalypse Now always made sense to me: 
>arresting someone for violating the rules of war is like 
>handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500.

Ah, but the arresting force in this case is a "High Prejudice" call from the 
Imperial Marines and Navy.  The poor sap who fired the nuke may or may not be 
arrested, but the entire chain of command that put that nuke in his hands, up 
to and including the local imperial noble if he is culpable, is either going 
to be dead due to "resisting arrest" (ie. firing at the landing Marines) or 
brought before the first applicable Imperial Noble in the feudal 
line-of-command...

The Imperium rules the "space between the planets", and the planets *like* it 
that way. Anyone who draws the Imperial Attention down to the surface of the 
planet has, by definition, done a Bad Thing.
("Surface" in this case does not normally include the starport, which is 
legally part of the "space" ruled by the Imperium.)

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEKMCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>
>
>When the Imperium deals with outsiders, all bets are...potentially...off.
However, the nobles of the
>Imperium are loath to abandon their own rules even then, and generally
won't unless the

[deletion]

>What these unwritten rules are is up to you, but personally, I use
>17th and 18th European rules concerning ransoms, hostages, pledges,
>prisoner exchanges, not attacking non-combatants, fighting away from
>civilian areas. and so on. Civilizated states abide by them,
>barbarians don't.

To paraphrase the narrator of Dr. Zhivago, "while the Europeans saw the
Great War as a struggle among the nations of Europe, we [Communists] saw it
as a struggle among Europe's upper classes."  To the extent that the ruling
classes of various interstellar entities recognize commonalities with one
another as rulers that may meet or exceed commonalities of culture with
their own servant classes, they will likely afford one another the
courtesies of conflict among the ruling class.

For example, Imperial nobles in the Spinward Marches are primarily of
Solomani ancestry (at least in my Traveller universe), as are the nobles of
the Sword Worlds.  I would expect them to follow certain conventions that
neither would follow in dealing with Vargr rabble.  The Zhodani, too, have a
set of noble traditions and a defined ruling class.  That might lead to some
amount of gentility in the Frontier Wars.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:55:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:55:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Acceptable losses
References: <20020731151827.2338.75109.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00a501c239bf$a4928e00$ac5d8690@computer>

I've been busy for a couple of days, so I'm replying to an old message:

> Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 11:00:17 -0400
> From: "John T. Kwon"
> There were even cavalrymen at High Wood who rode horses into
> a line of German machineguns who had not been shelled in
> advance.  Sheer butchery - and the only reason they were
> employed there was to demonstrate that there was still a need
> for cavalry.  The Germans in that instance lost zero men.
> The cavalry unit was reduced to a few men in a few minutes.

What's sad about this is that cavalry (mounted infantry) was still a
war-winning force at this time. Check out the Eastern Front and Palestine.
(And the Boer War and Russian Civil War, come to think of it.)

Cavalry was still useful, and widely used in WWII. It only died in droves
when it was misused by the kind of cretins that would run them into
machineguns.

(Of course, mounted charges sometimes worked spectacularly well, too. The
Australian Light Horse did some wonderful things in Palestine in WWI.)

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Parole Given...
Message-ID: <189.bb4aecb.2a7b32ae@aol.com>

Robert Uhl writes:

>
>How did it work historically?  What forms of parole were granted?
>

Depends on who was giving, and who was accepting. The one historical case I'm 
aware of involved an ancestor of mine during the Civil War.  A Southerner, he 
was part of a unit raised in his home state for the purpose of penetrating 
into Northern territory and breaking supply lines by sabotaging train tracks 
and the like. That unit was caught and defeated in detail, as the story goes, 
and a fairly large number of men were taken prisoner, including my ancestor.  
Apparently, the Northern unit was far from its own base, and could ill afford 
to deal with a large number of prisoners. So they sent them home. The family 
history relates that my ancestor was given back his gun and told to "go home, 
the war is over for you."  He did, because he knew they were correct.

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:57:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:57:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <20020801182132.8dc5803e76f94f1f98d7b72b3352174c.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <000001c239bf$a48101d0$6501a8c0@Darla>

Buffaloes did fight Zeroes at Midway.  VMF-221 on Midway was equipped
with 19 F2A-3's, of which 16 were lost on June 4.  

A big problem for the Buffalo was the weight gain due to, among other
things, the addition of armor and self-sealing tanks.  The F2A-1 weighed
3875lb empty, but the F2A-3 had grown to 4732lb empty.  Even with a more
powerful engine, initial climb was reduced to 2290 ft/min vice 3060
ft/min.

The Finnish Air Force did very will (477 kills!) with the 44 F2A-1's
that were delivered to them, but they were flying the lightweight
version of the Buffalo against poorly trained Russian pilots for the
most part.

Tom Barnes

Source: Wagner, American Combat Planes, pp.379-381


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 19:23:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Aug  1 18:23:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Baboon Class Missile Frigate
Message-ID: <00ba01c239c3$a1ad72a0$ac5d8690@computer>

Ship: Baboon
Class: Baboon
Type: Missile Frigate
Architect: Alan Bradley
Tech Level: 15

USP
         FM-A146892-000000-00009-0 MCr 809.580 1 KTons
Bat Bear                       1   Crew: 20
Bat                            1   TL: 15

Cargo: 81.000 Fuel: 480.000 EP: 80.000 Agility: 6 Shipboard Security Detail:
1
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 8.096   Cost in Quantity: MCr 647.664

Designed with Andrew Moffat-Vallance's wonderful High Guard Shipyard.
------------------------------------------

The Baboon Class Missile Frigate is a lightly equipped patrol/escort
vehicle.

In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships.

------------------------------------------

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 19:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Aug  1 18:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonabo Class Missile Frigate
Message-ID: <00d401c239c5$866e20a0$ac5d8690@computer>

Ship: Bonabo
Class: Bonabo
Type: Missile Frigate
Architect: Alan Bradley
Tech Level: 15

USP
         FM-A156892-000000-00009-0 MCr 1,196.140 1.5 KTons
Bat Bear                       1   Crew: 24
Bat                            1   TL: 15

Cargo: 2.000 Fuel: 870.000 EP: 120.000 Agility: 6 Shipboard Security Detail:
2
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 11.961   Cost in Quantity: MCr 956.912

Designed with Andrew Moffat-Vallance's wonderful High Guard Shipyard.
------------------------------------------

 A development of the Baboon Class Missile Frigate, the Bonabo is a lightly
equipped patrol/escort
vehicle, capable of Jump 5.

In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships.

 ------------------------------------------

 Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 19:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug  1 18:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
Message-ID: <20020802015140.32494.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>

Help again.

I'm working with World Tamer's Handbook from TNE and I
need to figure the Orbital Period and Rotation Period
for a couple satellites around a Gas Giant.  Problem
is, I don't know where to get the mass for these
beasts in Standard Masses?

Any clues?

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 20:08:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 19:08:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
In-Reply-To: <sd495bcc.012@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801185752.34d73740@pop.mindspring.com>

At 04:03 PM 8/1/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>Would a world that has 80% of its surface covered by water, a dense
>nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, and one moon that is large enough to exert a
>tidal effect tend to be more or less climatically active? Assume
>moderate (terran-normal) vulcanism and a fairly non-polluting early TL
>aqua/agricultural society. Also assume standard polar ice caps and
>rotation around 20 deg. off the plane of the ecliptic. I'll welcome any
>and all comments...

Need a few more data points:  What is the average temperture?  How long is
the day?
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 20:08:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 19:08:47 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
In-Reply-To: <B96ECAA0.67370%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200208011810.LVR04270@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801190225.470fd9fe@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:23 AM 8/1/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>on 8/1/02 11:10 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

>> I bet that fighting hole full of cold rainwater I stepped
>> into near LZ Aardvark was put there by Doug.  Thanks, Doug.

Only the best for my friends!  And he, I walked into my fair share of those.

>The wonderful bond of shared experience (misery).  We can all sit down
>together, drink beer, and share tales of the fine accommodations of Harmony
>Church, the facilities at AO Eagle, the pleasures of Columbus Georgia.
>Differentiated only by the uniform we wore, or the color of our boots and
>whether we took the SQT or the POIQT.

I went through Sand Hill, where the drills left mints on our pillows, but
much the same thing.. ah, the nights I spent on Victory Drive.. (we called
it VD Drive for obvious reasons.)
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Embrace Fascism.    The uniforms look cool


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 20:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Thu Aug  1 19:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Baboon Class Missile Frigate
Message-ID: <200208020215.g722FLw20931@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com>
>Subject: [TML] Baboon Class Missile Frigate
...
>         FM-A146892-000000-00009-0 MCr 809.580 1 KTons
>Bat Bear                       1   Crew: 20
>Bat                            1   TL: 15
>
>Cargo: 81.000 Fuel: 480.000 EP: 80.000 Agility: 6 Shipboard Security Detail: 1
>Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
...
>The Baboon Class Missile Frigate is a lightly equipped patrol/escort vehicle.
>
>In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships.

  <QUIBBLE> Not really? By TL E or F dampers make these ships just
too inefficient, IIRC?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 20:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 19:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
Message-ID: <d3.f702ca6.2a7b4ae9@aol.com>

 >including not commenting on how a
 >Washington police officer can be hired with felony convictions on his/her
 >record, provided that none were more recent than ten years ago at the time
 >of application.

Well, to be fair, if they didn't follow this hiring policy then could they 
find anyone to hire?

 >Nor will I criticize the voters of that city for being stupid enough to
 >re-elect as mayor a convicted drug dealer, and then expect the tone of the
 >city to be anything other than what it is.

Oh, but they're not stupid.  They knew what the tone of the city would be.  
That's why they voted for him.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 20:43:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Thu Aug  1 19:43:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <200208011145.LVF00804@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEGKEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

Flykiller says
>Yeah, I've seen 'em.  True story:  two female reservists on
>the gallery deck, looking lost and bored and a little
>nervous.  One of 'em suddenly brightens, turns to the other
>and says, "Let's go to the ship's mall!"  The other lights
>up with happiness and they head for the ladder down to the
>store.  It was almost more than I could take.
>

 Sounds like fairly typical 1980's era Navy reservists to me. Report aboard
for two weeks and spend most of your time at the exchange and commissary
soaking up those good Navy benefits. (Most of them could actually afford the
reduced price expensive junk in the exchange that most active duty sailors
couldn't. You know like imported German nick nacks and giant globes with
bars inside. And expensive stereos and electronics. Most lower level
enlisted members have long ago found Wal-Mart and Kmart vastly undersells
the Exchange.)

I never got a decent days work from a reservist, until the Gulf War when
they were called up for six months and found that the contract they sign
actually meant they had leave their cushy high paying job and really be a
sailor. Then most of them straitened out. A few still tried to duck their
duty. I found that this had nothing to do with their gender.

In the active service I've know many fine female sailors who were competent
technicians and fine seaman. And more than a few who were more competent
leaders than many of the critics who bemoaned the posting of woman to ships.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 20:46:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Thu Aug  1 19:46:07 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <3D49DF3B.FDFEAFD6@ameritech.net>

> From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
> Date: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 11:41 pm
>

<snip>

> For JTAS subscribers, the recently-completed starship design 
> contest (Contest #10) had some excellent hospital ships, albeit 
> mostly using design sequences other than HG2.  Note, though, that 
> the winning design (not mine, sad to say) was built using HG2.

That design would have been mine. And IMHO it wasn't the best design in
that contest. I won, I believe, because of my shameless misappropriation
of 20th century american pop culture icons. (I must have been channeling
Dave Nilsen)

All of which reminds me that I have to firm up the details for the next
design contest.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 21:16:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 20:16:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller HIDING
Message-ID: <124.1460d565.2a7b535d@aol.com>

 >>Could be.  Let's find out.  Show me.  Can you handle it?
 >
 >It amuses me far more to watch you beg.

Yes, basking in verbally-asserted superiority is indeed much more pleasant 
than risking actual defeat.  But of course indulging in this makes you a 
coward.

"Sun Tzu said, 'The King likes only empty words.  He is not capable of 
putting them into practice.' "


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 21:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Thu Aug  1 20:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <99.2a2d475a.2a779a93@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4A0109.D48E52E6@pobox.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> >Also, does a crippled fighter neccessarily mean dead crewman?
>
> using ct tables, a factor 9 salvo against a 90 ton fighter results in 9
> critical hits, of which a roll of 2 or 10 ( 1/36 + 3/36 ) represent immediate
> crew death (we'll ignore the presence or absence of rescue vessels, the
> consequences to a pilot of loss of power in his ship, etc).  this results in
> a ( 1 - ( 32 / 36 ) ^ 9 ) or a 65.4% chance of crew death upon being hit.  I
> don't know what typical fighter-pilot survival rates are, but I'll bet that's
> comparable to those of japanese zero's in ww2.

MJ Dougherty wrote: (in a separate message)

> ... surviving to carry out your
> mission is necessary. Surviving to do it again is good. But surviving to go
> home and collect the medals is what every sailor wants. And he wants to KNOW
> that measures have been taken to ensure he will. In almost all situations,
> force survivability is necessary to morale.

The pilot casualty rates you quote above are much too high, IMHO.  They are only
true if the attacker is using TL15 100-ton meson gun bays or if the fighter is
unarmored.
Fighters IMTU carry maximum armor.  This would reduce the non-meson crits listed
above from 9 to 2, with a corresponding increase in crew survival.  Meson hits
would still be Very Bad, but you can design an attack boat of less than 200 tons
that a TL15 capital ship has to roll a 10 on 2d6 to hit.  So, approximately, for
every 6 100-ton meson bays, you get one mission-kill per turn, but the crew
mostly survives.  Not bad odds.  BTW, you get another kill per turn for every two
spinal mounts.  These kills are probably not survivable.

I agree that a sub-100dT fighter cannot carry a weapon which can hurt a TL15
capital ship, mostly because of the difference in computer size.  This is why the
"fighters" in the smoke test were actually 1000dT boats with factor-9 missile
bays.

200-ton attack boats and 1kton missile boats are good if the target has armor
factor 13 or less.  You have to go to a 2kton boat to kill vessels (regardless of
size) which have armor greater than 13. All of these vessels are very survivable.

I'll post a couple of designs.

WKH









From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 22:08:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 21:08:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
In-Reply-To: <d3.f702ca6.2a7b4ae9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B96F53B0.67526%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 7:39 PM, Flykiller@aol.com at Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>> including not commenting on how a
>> Washington police officer can be hired with felony convictions on his/her
>> record, provided that none were more recent than ten years ago at the time
>> of application.
> 
> Well, to be fair, if they didn't follow this hiring policy then could they
> find anyone to hire?

But they couldn't carry a gun.  They'd be a prohibited person under Federal
law, unless they had filed for and received a 'relief from disability' from
the ATF.  And congress has stopped funding this program, so none are being
done.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 22:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Thu Aug  1 21:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <200208020409.g7249Rw09382@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Flykiller@aol.com
>Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 20:25:44 EDT
>Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller 
...
>>  I'm curious as to your evidence for capital ships being unviable,
>>at least at TL's C & D. Assuming that armour is substantial, then
>>larger warships can achieve real utility from mounting repulsors
>>(rules lawyering aside), and their PAWS allow them to handle said
>>frigates (unless Armour J Munchkin-mobiles) the way that some are
>>suggesting fighters would never be allowed to be used.

  As an aside, why are you not discussing the frigates that you 
had posited as the sole class of warship in the post to which I
was responding?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 22:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Thu Aug  1 21:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] max hull size
Message-ID: <200208020411.g724Baw09689@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller 
...
>Again, I'm assuming CT.  Let's see .... at tech 12, max hull size is 199,999 

  <1 MT (USP X) per HG2, pps. 26 & 28.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 22:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 21:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Warships
Message-ID: <36.2b621a09.2a7b633b@aol.com>

>USP
>         BK-H9059J3-L59005-55545-0 MCr 5,624.770 8 KTons
>Bat Bear             1   1 15118   Crew: 110
>Bat                  1   1 15118   TL: 15
>
>Cargo: 170 Fuel: 720.000 EP: 720 Agility: 5 Shipboard Security Detail: 8 

Thanks.  I really do appreciate it.  If I may, I'd like to ask some questions 
(assuming CT and tech 15 in the defender).

1)  If you have armor M, then why do you have a repulsor bay and sand casters?
2)  This vessel could be agility 0 and still be completely immune to all but 
spinal meson gun fire.  Meson screen 3 would be sufficient to completely stop 
any non-spinal-mount meson guns. Since you make it agility 5 and not just 1 
or 2, and give it meson screen 9 (spending all that money on power plant), 
you must expect it to encounter spinal-sized meson gun fire.  It cannot 
survive against such fire, nor can it retaliate.  CT makes no provision for 
the identification of the location of targets that are not out in the open, 
and I assume that big meson guns will be buried, so what rule do you use that 
allows it to shoot back?  the vessel here cannot penetrate meson screen 1 
anyway, so I assume that if there are any large defended meson guns on this 
planet you will be assigning other ships to try and kill them first.  If the 
other ships are that good, then why exactly do you need this one?  And if it 
only deals with mop-up, why give it agility 5 and meson screen 9?
3)  The vessel obviously relies on fuel shuttles (is the parent craft 
streamlined?), which will either be obtaining fuel from the planet oceans or 
from gas giants that are usually, what, a week away.  If the enemy has any 
hidden SDB's nearby you'll have to detail escorts for each shuttle, and 
you'll have to be almost 100% certain that such escorts will be able to drive 
off these SDB's or any raiders that show up.  The parent craft will also 
require guarding, which will require more escorts.  It seems to me that it 
would be more efficient to just pack all these escorts, carriers, and riders 
into a few tougher vessels.

It seems to me that this is a fairly large investment in material that is 
useful only after the enemy fleet is no longer a threat.  If your fleet is 
there guarding it then there's no reason to build it, and if your fleet is 
not there then you must have zero expectation of any significant enemy fleet 
elements showing up.

This individual vessel is tough and cheap, but I don't see the context that 
will make it appropriate.  Could you elaborate on the context?  Thanks.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 22:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Thu Aug  1 21:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat
References: <00ba01c239c3$a1ad72a0$ac5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <3D4A0BEB.49706A1F@pobox.com>

Ship: Pebble
Class: Pebble
Type: Attack Boat
Architect: WKH
Tech Level: 15

USP
         BA-1806E81-G00000-05000-0 MCr 250.607 185 Tons
Bat Bear                    1      Crew: 2
Bat                         1      TL: 15

Cargo: 0.350 Frozen Watch Emergency Low: 1 Fuel: 25.900 EP: 25.900 Agility: 6

Architects Fee: MCr 2.506   Cost in Quantity: MCr 200.485

Detailed Description

COMMENTS
The Pebble was designed to be hard to hit and hard to kill.  It combines a
planetoid hull (AF18) with a model 8 computer and yet retains an agility rating
of
6.  It packs a powerful short-range offensive punch by utilizing the most
advanced fusion gun technology available.

In case of crew casualty, a backup pilot/gunner can be carried as a frozen
watch.  An emergency low berth can accomodate the entire crew if the boat is
disabled.

Pebbles are often found operating in conjunction with Baboon class missile
frigates.

In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships which have an armor
factor of 13 or less.

HULL
185.000 tons standard, 2,590.000 cubic meters, Planetoid Configuration

CREW
Pilot, Gunner

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 6G Manuever, Power plant-14, 25.900 EP, Agility 6

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/8 Computer

HARDPOINTS
1 Hardpoint

ARMARMENT
1 Dual Fusion Gun Turret in 1 Battery (Factor-5)

DEFENCES
Armoured Hull (Factor-16)

CRAFT
None

FUEL
25.900 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
No Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
1.0 Stateroom, 1 Low Berth, 1 Emergency Low Berth, 0.350 Ton Cargo

COST
MCr 253.113 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 2.506), MCr 200.485 in Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
55 Weeks Singly, 44 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
The Pebble was designed to be hard to hit and hard to kill.  It combines a
planetoid hull (AF18) with a model 8 computer and yet retains an agility rating
of
6.  It packs a powerful short-range offensive punch by utilizing the most
advanced fusion gun technology available.

In case of crew casualty, a backup pilot/gunner can be carried as a frozen
watch.  An emergency low berth can accomodate the entire crew if the boat is
disabled.

Pebbles are often found operating in conjunction with Baboon class missile
frigates.

In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships which have an armor
factor of 13 or less.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 22:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Aug  1 21:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption (was: warship optimization)
Message-ID: <F176AUfKRfcjcMzfoV100024006@hotmail.com>

From: Bill Hopper <whopper@pobox.com>

     "I agree that a sub-100dT fighter cannot carry a weapon which can hurt 
a TL15 capital ship, mostly because of the difference in computer size.  
This is why the "fighters" in the smoke test were actually 1000dT boats with 
factor-9 missile bays."


Mr. Hopper,

     The fighter designs used in the smoke tests I was referring to were 
sub-100Ton types.  They were also run at TL12.  Here are the USPs:

FM-0306G51-000000-00002-1 MCr 138.525 50 tons
Batt bear 1 Crew; 1
Batt 1 TL: 12
Cargo: 1.000 Fuel: 8.000 EP: 1.000 Agility: 6

          and

FG-0306G51-000000-04000-0 MCr 138.275 50 tons
Batt Bear 1 Crew: 1
Batt 1 TL: 12
Cargo: 0.00 Fuel; 0.00 EP: 0.00 Agility: 2

     Please note, these designs were pretty much bare bones exercises, i.e. 
cram the weapons and computer aboard, hang the rest.  They could have easily 
been armored, up powered, and run to 99 dTons.  The FG especially could use 
a higher agility.

     "200-ton attack boats and 1kton missile boats are good if the target 
has armor factor 13 or less.  You have to go to a 2kton boat to kill vessels 
(regardless of size) which have armor greater than 13. All of these vessels 
are very survivable."

     Oh yes, I very much agree with you there, especially in the upper TL 
reaches.  Battleriders work, as long as you can protect the tender!

     "I'll post a couple of designs."

     Please do, then perhaps Mr. Flykiller could run them against his 
Spinward Marches Colonial (sic) Fleet.  Without those goofy crew skills 
level house rules too?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 22:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 21:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <m3ofclg93m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net> writes:
>
> > Sure, not now: a video game, even a military simulator, is simply
> > not possible of fully-simulating flight, combat &c.  But thousands
> > of years in the future that's not an issue.  If you can damp
> > inertia and fake gravity, you can fake the motions and sensations
> > of combat.  If you can broadcast in 3D, you can generate a
> > photo-realistic world outside the phony cockpit windows.  The only
> > thing you _cannot_ simulate is the fear of death--and real
> > military training cannot AFAIK do that either; only actual flight
> > time can do that.
> 
> "I'm sorry, but it appears that Cadet Uhl was killed by the
> simulator.  In the simulation, he accelerated his fighter to very
> high speed, then crashed it into the drives of an enemy battleship.
> The simulation ran its gravitics to simulate the crash and increased
> the temperature to simulate the fire when his L-Hyd tanks exploded.
> The combination of being crushed and burned caused injuries that we
> were unable treat effectively.  Next!"

You really think that a computer can be powerful enough to simulate
all that and yet not have safeguards to prevent death?  I would
imagine that it'd be just like a modern simulator: screw up and you
get the `shatter screen.'

Although it could also be used to give you a nasty shock or something
every time you screw up...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Mit den Frauen ist das wie mit den Firewalls: was [...] am meisten
Sicherheit garantiert und am wenigsten Probleme macht, ist immer das,
was zum speziellen Fall am besten passt.
                        --Urs Traenkner in de.comp.security.firewall

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 22:52:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 21:52:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat
In-Reply-To: <3D4A0BEB.49706A1F@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEKPIJAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Ship: Pebble
Class: Pebble
Type: Attack Boat
Architect: WKH
Tech Level: 15

USP
         BA-1806E81-G00000-05000-0 MCr 250.607 185 Tons
Bat Bear                    1      Crew: 2
Bat                         1      TL: 15

Cargo: 0.350 Frozen Watch Emergency Low: 1 Fuel: 25.900 EP: 25.900 Agility:
6

Architects Fee: MCr 2.506   Cost in Quantity: MCr 200.485

Detailed Description

COMMENTS
The Pebble was designed to be hard to hit and hard to kill.  It combines a
planetoid hull (AF18) with a model 8 computer and yet retains an agility
rating
of
6.  It packs a powerful short-range offensive punch by utilizing the most
advanced fusion gun technology available.

In case of crew casualty, a backup pilot/gunner can be carried as a frozen
watch.  An emergency low berth can accomodate the entire crew if the boat is
disabled.

Pebbles are often found operating in conjunction with Baboon class missile
frigates.

In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships which have an armor
factor of 13 or less.

HULL
185.000 tons standard, 2,590.000 cubic meters, Planetoid Configuration

CREW
Pilot, Gunner

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 6G Manuever, Power plant-14, 25.900 EP, Agility 6

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/8 Computer

HARDPOINTS
1 Hardpoint

ARMARMENT
1 Dual Fusion Gun Turret in 1 Battery (Factor-5)

DEFENCES
Armoured Hull (Factor-16)

CRAFT
None

FUEL
25.900 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
No Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
1.0 Stateroom, 1 Low Berth, 1 Emergency Low Berth, 0.350 Ton Cargo

COST
MCr 253.113 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 2.506), MCr 200.485 in
Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
55 Weeks Singly, 44 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
The Pebble was designed to be hard to hit and hard to kill.  It combines a
planetoid hull (AF18) with a model 8 computer and yet retains an agility
rating
of
6.  It packs a powerful short-range offensive punch by utilizing the most
advanced fusion gun technology available.

In case of crew casualty, a backup pilot/gunner can be carried as a frozen
watch.  An emergency low berth can accomodate the entire crew if the boat is
disabled.

Pebbles are often found operating in conjunction with Baboon class missile
frigates.

In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships which have an armor
factor of 13 or less.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Heh

Great minds and all that.  I sent this out for the Rodeo on
June 20.

jml


Permission granted to post as part of the TML Rodeo

Lest I forget, these ships were made using Mr.
Moffatt-Vallance's excellent High Guard Shipyard.

The Brilliant Pebble is one of the current Provincial
fleet elements protecting Glisten.  built out of slag
the tunneling that constantly is generated by the tunneling
that shapes the belt cities.

With 6 g acceleration, a 100 ton Particle Accelerator bay,
and very powerful computers the Pebble is a danger even to
capital ships, while it's armored rocky hull, back up computers,
marine contingent, and frozen watch render it a tenacious
scrapper

Ship: Glisten RX11-113
Class: Brilliant Pebble
Type: Monitor
Architect: jml
Tech Level: 15

USP
         PP-A8068J2-B00400-00906-0 MCr 1,134.444 1.6 KTons
Bat Bear                     1 1   Crew: 57
Bat                          1 1   TL: 15

Cargo: 44.000 Frozen Watch (x2) Fuel: 256.000 EP: 128.000 Agility: 1 Ships
Troops: 2 Marines: 25
Craft: 1 x 40T Pinnace
Backups: 1 x Model/8fib Computer 1 x Bridge

Architects Fee: MCr 11.344   Cost in Quantity: MCr 907.555


Detailed Description

TONNAGE
1,600.000 tons standard, 22,400.000 cubic meters, Planetoid Configeration

CREW
11 Officers, 21 Ratings, 25 Marines

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 6G Manuever, Power plant-8, 128.000 EP, Agility 1

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/9fib Computer
1 Backup Bridge, 1 Model/8fib Backup Computer

HARDPOINTS
1 100-ton bay, 6 Hardpoints

ARMARMENT
1 100-ton Particle Accelerator Bay (Factor-9), 6 Triple Missile Turrets in 1
Battery (Factor-6)

DEFENCES
Nuclear Damper (Factor-4), Armoured Hull (Factor-8)

CRAFT
1 40.000 ton Pinnace (Crew of 2)

FUEL
32.000 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 60 days endurance)
No Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
32.0 Staterooms, 60 Low Berths, 44.000 Tons Cargo

COST
MCr 1,145.788 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 11.344), MCr 907.555 in
Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
128 Weeks Singly, 103 Weeks in Quantity


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 22:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Aug  1 21:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Civility (was Re: warship HIDING)
Message-ID: <F60mzsZCnT9An4eVh2V00024324@hotmail.com>

From: Flykiller@aol.com

     "Yes, basking in verbally-asserted superiority is indeed much more 
pleasant than risking actual defeat.  But of course indulging in this makes 
you a (description deleted by LEW)"


Sir,

     This post was completely uncalled for, in very poor taste, and little 
more than flame bait.  Posting such a message was definitely beneath you.  I 
cannot believe you would normally behave in such a manner.  Passions may be 
running high on both sides of this discussion, but that doesn't mean we need 
to lower ourselves and make personal attacks.
     All of us on the List have been guilty of such behavior in the past, 
myself especially, but we all also try to conduct ourselves in as civil a 
manner as possible.  Because we're human, sometimes we fail.  However, we 
all still try.
     Your opinions and views have kicked off quite an interesting thread 
here on the List.  I have found your responses to other threads interesting 
also.  However, posting a message such as the one in question will do little 
more than earn you a place in many members' kill files.  Your posts, 
observations, and opinions deserve a better fate than that.
     I look forward to your future posts on a variety of threads and feel 
certain that you will conduct yourself in a truly civil manner.


     Sincerely,
     William R. Cameron, aka Larsen E. Whipsnade

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 23:36:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Thu Aug  1 22:36:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
In-Reply-To: <3D4A0109.D48E52E6@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEMJELAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Why would a warship allocate a factor 9 missile salvo, which as I understand
represents a lot of missiles against a single fighter? I know the HG rules
do the combat this way but it makes little sense. On the bridge, "commander
launch fifty missiles at that fighter..."


If people want fighters to be more effective in a high tech environment just
reduce the effectiveness of the point defence systems.

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 00:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 23:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] juries
Message-ID: <1a8.614142f.2a7b7b13@aol.com>

 >Maybe the concept of men, not so much laws, is not a bad 
 >one.  Sure, we could say that on Regina, there's no specific 
 >law against writing your ledgers that way.  On the other 
 >hand, if news gets out, and there's enough related heat (such 
 >as massive corporate collapse), the Duke of Regina will be 
 >sending you a personal invitation to the prison hulk.

What if he doesn't wait until there's enough "related heat"?  What if he 
doesn't wait for any heat at all?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 00:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 23:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <11c.14c7f23e.2a7b7e6b@aol.com>

 >Larsen raises several excellent points. I thought I would chime in,
 >briefly, because I am of the opinion that Mr. Fly simply doesn't get it
 >despite what the true warrior types on the TML have been (very
 >patiently) explaining. TML hasn't been this interesting in a while!
 >
 >One need only to look at the Battle of the Atlantic to see how much of
 >an effect esprit de corps and loyalty go towards men willingly going
 >into grave danger. I may be slightly off on my numbers, but the U-Boat
 >service saw the highest losses of ANY service branch, across all
 >nationalities during WW II. Something like 80% of all U-boatmen were KIA
 >towards the end of the war, with the average life expectancy being a
 >week.

A week?

I posted an adequate answer to that particular example.  No-one responded to 
it at all, patiently or otherwise.  Not that anyone has to, but ....

In reference to the original post that started all this, I don't know what 
else to say, 'cept I'm glad all these true warriors aren't in charge of 
making making major procurement and force deployment decisions.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 00:23:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 23:23:08 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <9f.2b1fbbad.2a7b7f21@aol.com>

 >BTW, I think some of the best Navy chow to be had is at RTC Great
 >Lakes.

What are you talking about?  They put chopped onions in the jello!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 01:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 00:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
Message-ID: <19e.6479ce5.2a7b8a94@aol.com>

 >Would a world that has 80% of its surface covered by water, a dense
 >nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, and one moon that is large enough to exert a
 >tidal effect tend to be more or less climatically active? Assume
 >moderate (terran-normal) vulcanism and a fairly non-polluting early TL
 >aqua/agricultural society. Also assume standard polar ice caps and
 >rotation around 20 deg. off the plane of the ecliptic. I'll welcome any
 >and all comments...

I've often wondered along those lines.  If you look at our system the size 2 
moon is at the very limit (book 6) of its possible orbit, yet when generating 
traveller systems it is quite possible to have much larger moons orbiting 
much closer to their world.  The tides would be huge.  I would imagine there 
would be very few costal cities throughout most systems, because they'd be 
flooded by 50 foot tides.

As I understand it weather is caused mostly by heat transfer across a 
planet's surface.  Since your world has a 20 degree axial tilt then I would 
think its weather would be about comparable to Terra's.  If denser atmosphere 
holds more heat then it should be more active.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 01:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 00:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <151.11ceca62.2a7b936d@aol.com>

 >The Germans, and
 >particularly the Japanese were horribly dehumanized.  We made our enemies
 >into monsters so then it was OK to exterminate them.

Seems to be part of the human condition.  Not only is the enemy an inhuman 
monster and responsible for any and all evil, _we_ are pure as the 
wind-driven snow in any and all circumstances.  "It's Al Qaida's fault we 
bombed a wedding party!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 01:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 00:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <41.21182628.2a7b9569@aol.com>

 >"A mediocre plan executed immediately is better than a briliant plan
 >executed later."

Good post.  I always thought the quote was "A good plan now is better than a 
perfect plan later."  I like it better that way anyway.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 02:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 01:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <de.2af56363.2a7b992a@aol.com>

 >> >HMS Glow-worm ramming the Admiral Hipper comes to mind. The destroyer's
 >>  >mass
 >>  >was literally the only thing that might hurt the cruiser, and if she
 >wasn't
 >>  >hurt then the convoy would be massacred. Her skipper knew his ship would
 >>  >sink; he knew many (but probably not all) of his crew would die. But the
 >>  >decision was made in the face of the enemy, for a clear goal - to save
 >>  >hundreds of helpless merchant seamen. Would the crew have accepted an
 >>  >Admiralty policy of "we're not giving you torpedoes. You're to close and
 >>  >ram, then sink"? In desperate times, some people actually would. But,
 >say,
 >>  >in 1934? Nope.
 > 
 >Not to disagree with    the point of the comment but some details on the
 >loss of HMS Glowworm  was not escorting a convoy at the time of the battle
 >with the Hipper, she had been part of a minelaying sortie off the Norwegian
 >coast she became seperated from her consorts and came across on of the
 >Hipper's escrting destroyers.

Here's the url for the true story.  Nice site.

http://www.hmsglowworm.org.uk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 02:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Pronto)
Date: Fri Aug  2 01:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Civility (was Re: warship HIDING)
In-Reply-To: <F60mzsZCnT9An4eVh2V00024324@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000201c239fc$f5e3bd00$1202a8c0@RodgerYoung>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com 
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Larsen 
> E. Whipsnade
> Sent: August 1, 2002 9:54 PM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] Civility (was Re: warship HIDING)
> 
> 
> 
>      This post was completely uncalled for, in very poor 
> taste, and little 
> more than flame bait.  Posting such a message was definitely 
> beneath you.

<Deleted, you wrote it, you know what was here.  :)   >

>      I look forward to your future posts on a variety of 
> threads and feel 
> certain that you will conduct yourself in a truly civil manner.
> 
> 
>      Sincerely,
>      William R. Cameron, aka Larsen E. Whipsnade
> 

Excellently done!   Bravo!   You are truly a civilized person.

Pronto
AKA Brian Taylor



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 02:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Edward Swatschek)
Date: Fri Aug  2 01:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <200208011817.LVR05093@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208011817.LVR05093@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020802083028.LLOT14925.priv-edtnes04.telusplanet.net@there>

On Thursday 01 August 2002 11:17, John T. Kwon wrote:
>>
> There have been references to Imperial rules concerning
> warfare - are there really any in canon?  No use of nukes by
> non-Imperial forces?  Meson guns?  No genocide?  Eh?

The Rules were established early in CT (Sup11: Library Data N-Z, Striker,  
et al).  

First, they apply to conflict within the Imperium, and aim to maintain it's 
economic & military well-being.

The conflict should be local to a single system, though extra-planetary 
'assistance' is allowed within limits.  

They are unwritten so as to prevent formal precedent from preventing 
Imperial intervention.

"...use or possesion of nuclear weapons, if discovered, will almost 
certainly trigger Imperial intervention.  The Imperium alone retains rights 
to such weapons ... certain other weapons (chemical and bacteriological 
agents, and meson accelerators, for example) are strictly controlled, 
although they are not subject to the sweeping restrictions placed on 
nuclear weapons."



-- 
Edward Swatschek - edjs@bitslayer.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 02:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 01:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <200208012327.LWC00112@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <000201c23a02$bf4aef60$0112bd50@martinjd>

> "MJ Dougherty" says
> >Where will you fight these engagements? How will you make
> >sure you have the choice of where and when to meet the enemy
> >fleet? What happens if he feints and threatens with the
> >battle fleet in being and floods your systems with
> >commerce raiders to break up your logistics chain?
>
> As I believe was mentioned before, those little fighters make
> excellent raiders - You could probably build fairly small,
> fairly cheap ones that would, especially in numbers, lay
> waste to the typical merchant ships.  The ship that carried
> them might not be very large, and could remain far outsystem.
>
> Let me think about this for a while...

Raider-carriers are an excellent idea. I wonder if escort carriers could
counter them. Or if they could carry enough fighters to scrub a decent light
cruiser before it closed and killed the carrier. Or....




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 02:49:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 01:49:04 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <45.1b1ae706.2a7ba15e@aol.com>

 >> ah yes, military spending.  but have you noticed that money is not at all
 >> the limiting factor in naval construction?  and even if it were, it's not
 >> the factor you make it out to be.  in the united states today, 250 million
 >> citizens contribute $300 billion or so annually in defense spending --
 >> that's $1200 from each man, woman, child, and illegal alien.  trillion
 >> credit squadron states that each imperial citizen contributes an average 
of
 >> 500Cr towards their navy -- I don't think that that is at all 
unreasonable,
 >> especially given that their military is primarily naval.  if anything it's
 >> too low, but it's still enough to allow the spinward marches to pay for
 >> about 2500 200kton battleships.  that's a lot of hardware, enough to put,
 >> what, ten battleships in each and every imperial spinward marches system. 
 >> what significant optimization can be had here?  there's some, but not 
much.
 >
 > hmmm... I must examine this .... after applying exchange rates and 
figuring 
 >the costs of support facilities, supplies and auxiliaries ( not to mention 
 >graft and 400$ hammers)

I'd like to hear what you find.  When I researched the Spinward Marches and 
realized what was really going on it was quite eye-opening.  So many ideas, 
even canon ideas, went out the window.

 >> as an aside, yeah, I suppose so.  but I subscribe completely to gary 
 >> gygax's idea:  "More 'realistic' combat systems could certainly have been
 >> included here, but they have no real part in a game for a group of players
 >> having an exciting adventure."
 >
 >Here is the schwerpunkt.

Isn't that a great word?

 >Do people play traveller as a wargame...or do they 
 >play traveller as a RPG.?

For me it's an RPG, but each one leads to the other.

 >How wonderful that there exists a game that can do 
 >both well.

Completely agree.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 03:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 02:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <m3ofclg93m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <004301c23a04$8cdeff60$0112bd50@martinjd>

> You really think that a computer can be powerful enough to simulate
> all that and yet not have safeguards to prevent death?  I would
> imagine that it'd be just like a modern simulator: screw up and you
> get the `shatter screen.'
>
> Although it could also be used to give you a nasty shock or something
> every time you screw up...

There are simulator drawbacks - "simulator sickness", which is kind of
psychosomatic motion sickness, can begin to manifest itself on real missions
(or cause them to not do certain things because they expect sim sickness).
Pilots sometimes begin to develop habits that optimise their performance in
the simulator rather than in the real environment. And they can develop a
habit of recklessness since they can't die, which is bad if carried over, or
sometimes evaporates in a mist of nerves because suddenly they CAN.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 03:03:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 02:03:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <99.2a2d475a.2a779a93@aol.com> <3D4A0109.D48E52E6@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <005801c23a04$ec770b20$0112bd50@martinjd>

> I agree that a sub-100dT fighter cannot carry a weapon which can hurt a
TL15
> capital ship, mostly because of the difference in computer size.  This is
why the
> "fighters" in the smoke test were actually 1000dT boats with factor-9
missile
> bays.
>

Huh? 1000 tons is an escort, or a frigate or something. But certainly not a
fighter.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 03:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri Aug  2 02:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
References: <20020802062003.11635.24330.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D4A4D4B.3C4D1955@ameritech.net>

> Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 18:51:40 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com>
>
> Help again.
> 
> I'm working with World Tamer's Handbook from TNE and I
> need to figure the Orbital Period and Rotation Period
> for a couple satellites around a Gas Giant.  Problem
> is, I don't know where to get the mass for these
> beasts in Standard Masses?
> 
> Any clues?

I couldn't find that info in any TNE source. There are charts for that
in "World Builder's Handbook" for MT. Assuming for the moment that you
don't have access to that very worthwhile publication I can give you
some typical figures from that source.

Smallest SGG radius = 20
Average SGG radius ~= 60
Highest SGG radius = 100

Smallest LGG radius = 110
Average LGG radius ~= 175
Highest LGG radius = 240

Lowest GG density = .1
Average GG density ~= .21
Highest GG density = .3

Send me a private email if you want the full charts. (I just don't have
the energy to type all of it up at the moment)

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 03:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 02:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <151.11ceca6f.2a7ba7cc@aol.com>

 >> Yes, with a huge Japanese fleet threatening their homeland and only them
 >> standing between the yellow peril and their families.  It was not, 
however, a
 >> standard tactic, employed "because they'll tolerate it".
 > 
 >Read Miracle at Midway a few years back. IIRC the torpedo planes were the 
ones EXPECTED to take out
 >the jap ships. But communication, navigation and planning errors resulted 
in the attacks being
 >uncoordinated and the TBY's? wound up being slaughtered by the jap CAP and 
the ships. When the dive
 >bombers showed up there were no planes in a position to oppose their attack.

This example doesn't make your point.  They wound up doing what they did 
because they were making the best of a bad situation,  not because it was a 
standard tactic.  Deciding that because they were willing to work it out that 
therefore you can order them to do it this way every time is abusive of their 
profession.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 03:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 02:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <151.11ceca6f.2a7ba7cc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <008b01c23a07$bf413920$0112bd50@martinjd>

>Read Miracle at Midway a few years back. IIRC the torpedo planes were the
> ones EXPECTED to take out
>  >the jap ships. But communication, navigation and planning errors
resulted
> in the attacks being
>  >uncoordinated and the TBY's? wound up being slaughtered by the jap CAP
and
> the ships. When the dive
>  >bombers showed up there were no planes in a position to oppose their
attack.
>
> This example doesn't make your point.  They wound up doing what they did
> because they were making the best of a bad situation,  not because it was
a
> standard tactic.  Deciding that because they were willing to work it out
that
> therefore you can order them to do it this way every time is abusive of
their
> profession.

Yes indeed. These guys did their job and made the attack despite everything
that was going wrong. The US aircrews got hammered - in fact, what killed
the IJN more than anything else was losses in good pilots, resulting
declining capability and more losses from elementary "inexperience" errors.

But anyway, point is that motivated, armed people will do their best nearly
all of the time. Creating policies that slaughter them for no good reason is
stupid, and will rob you of that motivation.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 03:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 02:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <177.c4ef5d8.2a7ba9ee@aol.com>

 >>Sure, not now: a video game, even a military simulator, is simply not
 >>possible of fully-simulating flight, combat &c.  But thousands of
 >>years in the future that's not an issue.  If you can damp inertia and
 >>fake gravity, you can fake the motions and sensations of combat.  If
 >>you can broadcast in 3D, you can generate a photo-realistic world
 >>outside the phony cockpit windows.  The only thing you _cannot_
 >>simulate is the fear of death--and real military training cannot AFAIK
 >>do that either; only actual flight time can do that.
 >
 >"I'm sorry, but it appears that Cadet Uhl was killed by the simulator.  In
 >the simulation, he accelerated his fighter to very high speed, then crashed
 >it into the drives of an enemy battleship.  The simulation ran its gravitics
 >to simulate the crash and increased the temperature to simulate the fire
 >when his L-Hyd tanks exploded.  The combination of being crushed and burned
 >caused injuries that we were unable treat effectively.  Next!"

No depressurization?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 04:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 03:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
In-Reply-To: <20020802062003.11635.24330.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020802062003.11635.24330.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <eimkkukp9lm8iv0tjm0iu5gvjaoi5j6oov@4ax.com>

On Thu, 01 Aug 2002 23:20:03 -0700, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

[quoting me]

> >including not commenting on how a
> >Washington police officer can be hired with felony convictions on his/her
> >record, provided that none were more recent than ten years ago at the time
> >of application.

>Well, to be fair, if they didn't follow this hiring policy then could they 
>find anyone to hire?

Yes.  In NYC, they call such positions 'hard to recruit', and that
automatically invokes paragraph 1127 of the Charter of the City of New York
- which paragraph allows them _not_ to impose or enforce the residency
requirement, and _does_ require that an employee hired under it be assessed
a non-tax payment, computed like the city's income tax, as a 'condition of
employment'.

> >Nor will I criticize the voters of that city for being stupid enough to
> >re-elect as mayor a convicted drug dealer, and then expect the tone of the
> >city to be anything other than what it is.

>Oh, but they're not stupid.  They knew what the tone of the city would be.  
>That's why they voted for him.

I refuse to believe that they _want_ a city that is so badly mismanaged
that Congress was ready to take away what autonomy they had.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 04:22:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 03:22:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Terminal Authors' Diarrhea
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020727101338.482f1ef0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20802.012022.5a5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 01:41 PM 7/27/2002 +0000, you wrote:
>
>>     Larsen, currently slogging through Turtledove's "Blood and Iron"
>
> "The Center Cannot Hold" is already out.  And it is wonderful!  I might Dr,
> Turtledove at BayCon, and suggested that I'd love to see the CSA timeline
> reach 1942.. and suddenly have the Race (from the Worldwar series) show up.
>  He told me he had been torturing his editor with that idea for sometime
> already.

Now you've given me an *evil* idea...

The Race shows up in 1942. And runs into the WWII of S.M. Stirling's
"Marching Through Georgia".

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 04:23:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Aug  2 03:23:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <000201c23a02$bf4aef60$0112bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3D4B05EA.9496.5198B9B@localhost>

On 2 Aug 2002, at 1:14, MJ Dougherty wrote:

> Raider-carriers are an excellent idea. I wonder if escort carriers could
> counter them. Or if they could carry enough fighters to scrub a decent light
> cruiser before it closed and killed the carrier. Or....

Ship: Nairana
Class: Vindex
Type: Escort Carrier
Architect: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
Tech Level: 13

USP
         RE-A731332-040000-44003-1 MCr 791.714 1 KTons
Bat Bear             6     11  2   Crew: 52
Bat                  6     11  2   TL: 13

Cargo: 11.400 Fuel: 330 EP: 30 Agility: 1 Marines: 7
Craft: 8 x 30T Patrol Fighters, 2 x 20T Lifeboats
Fuel Treatment: On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 4.893   Cost in Quantity: MCr 693.851


Detailed Description

HULL
1,000.000 tons standard, 14,000.000 cubic meters, Dispersed Structure 
Configuration

CREW
Pilot, Navigator, 4 Engineers, Medic, 10 Gunners, 18 Flight Crew, 7 
Marines, 10 Additional Crew (User Defined)

ENGINEERING
Jump-3, 1G Manuever, Power plant-3, 30.000 EP, Agility 1

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/3 Computer, Model/2 Flight Avionics, Model/3 Sensors, 
Model/3 Maser Communications

HARDPOINTS
10 Hardpoints

ARMAMENT
2 Triple Missile Turrets organised into 2 Batteries (Factor-3), 1 Triple Beam 
Laser Turret organised into 1 Battery (Factor-4), 1 Dual Fusion Gun Turret 
organised into 1 Battery (Factor-4)

DEFENCES
6 Triple Sandcaster Turrets organised into 6 Batteries (Factor-4)

CRAFT
8 30.000 ton Patrol Fighters (Crew of 2, Cost of MCr 36.920), 2 20.000 ton 
Lifeboats (Crew of 1, Cost of MCr 3.520)

FUEL
330 Tons Fuel (3 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
No Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
26 Staterooms, 1 Engineering Shop, 1 Vehicle Shop, 20 Tons of Missile 
Magazines (holding 400 missiles), 11.400 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
1 Maintainance Hanger (60.000 tons, Crew 10, Cost MCr 0.600), 4 Brig 
Cells (4.000 tons, Crew 0, Cost MCr 0.700)

COST
MCr 494.207 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 4.893), MCr 391.451 in 
Quantity, plus MCr 302.400 of Carried Craft (Hardpoints and Turrets 
charged)

CONSTRUCTION TIME
120 Weeks Singly, 96 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
The humble escort carrier is an often overlooked member of the Imperial 
Navy, but nonetheless it is probably one of the most useful vessels at the 
Emperor's disposal. Its modest costs coupled with the fexibility granted by 
its fighters give it range of options available to virtually no other type of 
vessel.

The escort carrier concept was developed by Cleon Zhunastu (later 
Emperor Cleon I) in the final years of the Sylean Federation. Initially 
intended as an answer to the endemic piracy that afflicted the fringes of the 
Federation, the type rapidly proved to be one of the most versatile in the 
fleet.

The Vindex class is a fairly typical example of the type. Designed during 
the later stages of the Civil War, it first found popularity amongst planetary 
navies and corporate interests seeking to find a cost effective suppliment 
for reduced Imperial Navy patrols. The class has also proved to be 
extremely flexible, often used to provide orbital and air support for minor 
troop deployments.

Ship: Puffin
Class: Puffin
Type: Patrol Fighter
Architect: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
Tech Level: 13

USP
         FP-0604B31-230000-20002-0 MCr 46.150 30 Tons
Bat Bear             1     1   1   Crew: 2
Bat                  1     1   1   TL: 13

Cargo: 0.500 Fuel: 3.300 EP: 3.300 Agility: 4 Pulse Lasers
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops

Architects Fee: MCr 0.462   Cost in Quantity: MCr 36.920


Detailed Description

HULL
30.000 tons standard, 420.000 cubic meters, Airframe Flattened Sphere 
Configuration

CREW
Pilot, Gunner

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 4G Manuever, Power plant-11, 3.300 EP, Agility 4

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/3 Computer, Model/3 Flight Avionics, Model/3 Sensors, 
Model/3 Maser Communications

HARDPOINTS
1 Hardpoint

ARMAMENT
1 Triple Mixed Turret with: 1 Pulse Laser (Factor-2), 1 Missile Rack (Factor-
2).

DEFENCES
1 Sandcaster in the Mixed Turret, organised into 1 Battery (Factor-3), 
Armoured Hull (Factor-2)

CRAFT
None

FUEL
3.300 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
1 Small Craft Stateroom, 2 Acceleration Couches, 1 Ton of Missile 
Magazines (holding 20 missiles), 0.500 Ton Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 46.612 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 0.462), MCr 36.920 in 
Quantity (Hardpoints and Turrets charged)

CONSTRUCTION TIME
16 Weeks Singly, 13 Weeks in Quantity

Ship: Lifeboat
Class: Lifeboat
Type: Lifeboat
Architect: Standard
Tech Level: 13

USP
         QX-0201101-000000-00000-0 MCr 4.400 20 Tons
Bat Bear                           Crew: 1
Bat                                TL: 13

Cargo: 4 Emergency Low: 6 Fuel: 4.200 EP: 0.200 Agility: 1
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops

Architects Fee: MCr 0.044   Cost in Quantity: MCr 3.520


Detailed Description

HULL
20.000 tons standard, 280.000 cubic meters, Cone Configuration

CREW
Pilot

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 1G Manuever, Power plant-1, 0.200 EP, Agility 1

AVIONICS
Bridge, No Computer Installed

HARDPOINTS
None

ARMAMENT
None

DEFENCES
None

CRAFT
None

FUEL
4.200 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance, plus 4.000 tons 
of additional fuel)
On Board Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
2 Acceleration Couches, 2 Low Berths, 6 Emergency Low Berths, 4 Tons 
Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 4.444 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 0.044), MCr 3.520 in 
Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
11 Weeks Singly, 9 Weeks in Quantity


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 04:23:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Aug  2 03:23:53 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <sd494643.049@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
Message-ID: <3D4B05EA.8754.5198B91@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002, at 14:28, Jeff D. Greenly wrote:

> One need only to look at the Battle of the Atlantic to see how much of
> an effect esprit de corps and loyalty go towards men willingly going
> into grave danger. I may be slightly off on my numbers, but the U-Boat
> service saw the highest losses of ANY service branch, across all
> nationalities during WW II. Something like 80% of all U-boatmen were KIA
> towards the end of the war, with the average life expectancy being a
> week. 

True to a point. But there's a very important proviso. The average crew of a 
U-boat was around 40-50 IIRC. This provides a mass of esprit de corps to 
"steady" the crew. The individual members draw strength from each other, 
the presense of your comrades acts as a break on panic and provides a 
strong disincentive to running away. However in a fighter you probably are 
all alone, the nearest friendly is tens of kilometers away and there's 
nobody to see if you stand as a "hero" or run as a "coward".

Personally I don't think the massed fighter approach works over the long 
term due to the cost in highly trained crew. However, I can well see it being 
not that uncommon, especially when one side feels desperate.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 04:24:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Aug  2 03:24:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <F228Wv2vyWb6cxHKx7000010140@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B05EA.18849.5198B91@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002, at 15:57, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      "...although not as bad as the Swordfish(1)."

>      Please excuse me, I forgot to add the footnote.

> (1) - The Swordfishs' very obs0lescence may have actually helped it survive in
> battle.  A most likely apophrycal story from the Bismarck saga has the German
> AA fire missing the attacking Swordfish because the aircraft were moving too
> SLOW, the AA crews led their targets by too much.  Swordfish made their
> torpedo runs at ~90 mph and weather conditions could drop that speed even
> further.
>      The Swordfish may been viwed as a joke by other navies, it still got the
> job done at Taranto and with the Bismarck however.

Don't dis the Swordfish, it was one of the 2nd WW most successful ASW 
aircraft. They served with no less than 26 squadrons, remained in 
production till late 1944 and only retired from active service on 21st May 
1945. :*>

ObTrav: Never, never underestimate the value of a well engineered lower 
tech design. You write off the well proven technology of the previous 
generation at your own peril. The Swordfish outlasted her replacement and 
was better in her role (carrier based ASW) than any other allied aircraft


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 04:28:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Aug  2 03:28:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <99.2a2d475a.2a779a93@aol.com> <3D4A0109.D48E52E6@pobox.com> <005801c23a04$ec770b20$0112bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <006401c23a0f$3ca9da00$7400a8c0@matt>

MJ Dougherty wrote:
>> I agree that a sub-100dT fighter cannot carry a weapon which can
>> hurt a TL15 capital ship, mostly because of the difference in
>> computer size.  This is why the "fighters" in the smoke test were
>> actually 1000dT boats with factor-9 missile bays.
>>
>
> Huh? 1000 tons is an escort, or a frigate or something. But certainly
> not a fighter.

The House rule I use to allow Fighters to be more effective is to let
Squadrons be treated as Batteries. ie, each fighter in the squadron is the
equivalent of a turret in a battery, with corresponding increase in weapon
USP, at the penalty of fewer salvos. This represents the squadron acting in
a co-ordinated way to attack a single target, concentrating their fire on
one spot so as to overwhelm it. The capital ship firing on the attacking
squadron still has to target individual fighters. As fighters are destroyed,
recalculate the effective USP of the squadrons 'battery'

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 04:52:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 03:52:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com>

 >>  >Low-end ships so you can do all your jobs within your budget maybe?
 >>
 >> I understand that, but there's the question of what your enemy is doing.
 >> Consider the extreams -- if your goal is to win engagements then you'll
 want
 >> a few expensive capital ships, but if you want to "do all the jobs" then
 >> you'll want a herd of warm bodies (as it were).  Between the extreams is
 the
 >> balance -- but where is it?  I think it's way over in the "win
 engagements"
 >> side.
 >
 >Engagemnents of what sort? Enough commerce raiders can cripple your economy
 >(Battle of the Atlantic etc) despite your excellent battle fleet. If the
 >engagements you need to win are escort/raider ones, then you need many ships
 >to cover the area, but ones good enough to beat or deter the raiders.

A good point worthy of discussion.  I have commerce raiders, but I envision 
them as travelling in a single mass, outrunning and dodging attempts by 
serious fleet elements to pursue them (unless, of course, the raiders blunder 
into them).  Small patrols and escorts are never going to be able to deal 
with such a herd, while major patrols and escorts deployed everywhere will 
seriously impact the size of the remaining core fleet.  How serious is the 
trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took place because the small island 
of England was not self-sufficient in either agricultural or industrial 
matters, but I don't think this situation will arise on many _planets_.  If 
trade is truly a major issue and lifeline then a massed herd of raiders will 
be crippling regardless of any other fleet elements employed.  But I think 
most planets with populations sufficient to have significant trade 
connections will have huge internal capacites to produce what they need 
anyway, and huge reserves of whatever they have to import (consider our 
Strategic Oil Reserve).  I see raiders as nothing more than annoyance attacks 
-- they can't lay seiges, they can't do major battles, and they can't stay in 
any area too long or some task force will find them and kick their ass -- 
that can't be instantly responded to in an adequate manner.  You can't be 
strong everywhere, and if you try you'll be rolled up.  Further, if your 
opponent takes that tonnage that you devoted to patrols and escorts and uses 
it to build a major fleet element instead, that element will be able to 
stroll through the isolated patrols and escorts like a bull in a china shop, 
wasting the tonnage you devoted to them.

 >> If you "cover all the bases" with warm bodies but have to flee every
 >> time the heavyweight enemy shows up then what good is that?  There is no
 >> substitute for victory, and to get that victory you need the heavyweights
and
 >> you need more of them than your enemy.
 >
 >You need greater concentration of force at the critical point. That can be
 >done with less ships, better handled and supported.

I don't think you can get "greater concentration of force" with "less ships". 
 All other things being equal, if 1/3 of your fleet runs into 2/3 of the 
enemy fleet then you're gonna get smooshed.  Then all your patrols and 
escorts won't matter.

 >That said, victory is not necessarily gained by defeating the enemy battle
 >fleet. If you do that, but he scrubs your industrial worlds with planetary
 >raider ships, or kills your economy with commerce raiders, then you may not
 >have won at all.

True.  But several points.  1)  If all he has left is raiders, then you'll 
march into _his_ territory with some surviving unopposed capital ships while 
sending the rest after the raiders, who will be forced to continuously flee 
with no refuge.  2)  Major industrial worlds will have their own local 
defense forces, and no raider fleet I can imagine will be able to take on an 
AX (population A, tech (game tech level)) world's local defense force, so the 
majority of your population should be safe.  3)  How would you stop this 
anyway?  A large raider force is not expensive to build, but if you try to 
put anti-raider forces sufficient to engage such raiders at every possible 
point they may attack then you won't have much left on your front lines, and 
the enemy will wind up attacking your industrial worlds not with raiders but 
with capital ships.  4)  As for commerce interdiction it will be unpopular 
with the folks, but in my opinion not militarily significant.

 >> If by patrol you mean scouts, then yes.  But if you mean general policing
 >> then I'd think that would be a local police matter and not a fleet matter.
 >
 >I mean patrol ships to defeat piracy, commerce raiding and smuggling,

That's all local.  If a system is really strapped, I'd send some fleet 
escorts to help out.  War is not always imminent, after all.  Too, while the 
Imperium cares about some weapons, why should it care about the smuggling of 
anything else?  "Admiral!  Smugglers are transporting illegal cargos of 
cigarettes to Zivije!"  "Ensign, go there immediately.  Buy me a few packs."

 >to
 >catch enemy intelligence ships and recon vessels

I'd use scouts to watch them, and try to catch them on the way out -- if I 
thought they had relevant information.  What are they going to say?  "There's 
a planet here!"?  "There's some sort of secret facility over here!"?  "There 
were no ships in this system two months ago!"?  But frankly, a traitor 
civilian in a free trader or a seeker would be impossible to detect, and 
would provide just as much information.

 >to prevent the stockpiling of forward supply bases

Scouts would see the incoming traffic, and the fleet would send some elements 
to check it out.

 >to gain intelligence

Scouts again.

 >to show the flag and keep systems in line....

I'd use the regular fleet to do that.  "Join the Navy and see the world!"

It's getting late.  I hope I've said something useful with a minimum of 
"noise".

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 04:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 03:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <99.2a2d475a.2a779a93@aol.com> <3D4A0109.D48E52E6@pobox.com> <005801c23a04$ec770b20$0112bd50@martinjd> <006401c23a0f$3ca9da00$7400a8c0@matt>
Message-ID: <003201c23a14$66243100$7d03bd50@martinjd>

> >>
> >
> > Huh? 1000 tons is an escort, or a frigate or something. But certainly
> > not a fighter.
>
> The House rule I use to allow Fighters to be more effective is to let
> Squadrons be treated as Batteries. ie, each fighter in the squadron is the
> equivalent of a turret in a battery, with corresponding increase in weapon
> USP, at the penalty of fewer salvos.

Why do you want fighters to be more effective?

>This represents the squadron acting in
> a co-ordinated way to attack a single target, concentrating their fire on
> one spot so as to overwhelm it. The capital ship firing on the attacking
> squadron still has to target individual fighters. As fighters are
destroyed,
> recalculate the effective USP of the squadrons 'battery'

I see the concept, though you'd have to simulate C3 breakdowns, loss of
cohesion etc

>
> Matt
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 05:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Fri Aug  2 04:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Blowing holes in Japan (was " Re Patton")
Message-ID: <F6qF77mNl6ahF9JckUL00023608@hotmail.com>

Gentles, I believe part of the rationale (if such is really possible) behind 
dropping the nuclear weapons on Japan was that the person[1] running the 
country refused to believe that the Americans would have the capacity (moral 
or technological) to defeat the "honorable" Japanese nation.
Unfortunately, the only way to get through his racism and bigotry  - and 
show him that he *would* not win by forcew of arms - was to kill thousands 
of "innocent" civilians.  Whilst such a move is horrific for us to 
contemplate today, remember that the circumstances then were a little 
different...

[1]IIRC, Emporer Hirohito - who continued to see *absolutely nothing wrong* 
in the abuses his soldiers inflicted on prisoners until the day he died...

Jeff (aka Captain Chicken, leg-end in his own lunchbox).

"The party waits until it hears the pre-arranged signal - a scream - then 
decides it must be headed in the wrong direction and leaves Jackie to her 
fate..."

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 05:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Aug  2 04:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <99.2a2d475a.2a779a93@aol.com> <3D4A0109.D48E52E6@pobox.com> <005801c23a04$ec770b20$0112bd50@martinjd> <006401c23a0f$3ca9da00$7400a8c0@matt> <003201c23a14$66243100$7d03bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <00a601c23a14$be1ddbe0$7400a8c0@matt>

MJ Dougherty wrote:
>>> Huh? 1000 tons is an escort, or a frigate or something. But
>>> certainly not a fighter.
>>
>> The House rule I use to allow Fighters to be more effective is to let
>> Squadrons be treated as Batteries. ie, each fighter in the squadron
>> is the equivalent of a turret in a battery, with corresponding
>> increase in weapon USP, at the penalty of fewer salvos.
>
> Why do you want fighters to be more effective?

So that they can have an outside possibility of damaging Capital ships at
high TL

>> This represents the squadron acting in
>> a co-ordinated way to attack a single target, concentrating their
>> fire on one spot so as to overwhelm it. The capital ship firing on
>> the attacking squadron still has to target individual fighters. As
>> fighters are destroyed, recalculate the effective USP of the
>> squadrons 'battery'
>
> I see the concept, though you'd have to simulate C3 breakdowns, loss
> of cohesion etc

Sure, just as soon as we do the same for the escorting PD ships of the
defending Fleet...

HG is pretty abstract anyway, so this level of detail is unnecessary IMHO.
All I am doing is letting Fighters act like Turrets. If several turrets can
concentrate their fire to increase their effectiveness, why can't several
fighters?

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 05:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Brian Caball)
Date: Fri Aug  2 04:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com>
References: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com>
Message-ID: <02080212144000.29943@avlendris>

> How
> serious is the trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took place because
> the small island of England was not self-sufficient in either agricultural
> or industrial matters, but I don't think this situation will arise on many
> _planets_.  If trade is truly a major issue and lifeline then a massed herd
> of raiders will be crippling regardless of any other fleet elements
> employed.  But I think most planets with populations sufficient to have
> significant trade connections will have huge internal capacites to produce
> what they need anyway, and huge reserves of whatever they have to import
> (consider our Strategic Oil Reserve).  

If planets are so self sufficient, then why does TNE describe planets failing 
because they were cut off from interstellar trade?

-Brian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 05:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 04:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com>
Message-ID: <004c01c23a1c$26d3b860$7d03bd50@martinjd>

>
> A good point worthy of discussion.  I have commerce raiders, but I
envision
> them as travelling in a single mass, outrunning and dodging attempts by
> serious fleet elements to pursue them (unless, of course, the raiders
blunder
> into them).  Small patrols and escorts are never going to be able to deal
> with such a herd, while major patrols and escorts deployed everywhere will
> seriously impact the size of the remaining core fleet.

If you spread out a mix of powerful and less powerful commerce raiders,
you'll pull more fleet assets away. That's half the point.


>How serious is the
> trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took place because the small
island
> of England was not self-sufficient in either agricultural or industrial
> matters, but I don't think this situation will arise on many _planets_.

It'll impact revenue, which hurts over time. More importantly, it hurts
civilian morale and causes demands for proteciton. And you can damage the
logistics train - if the enemy is missile-heavy, he has to get them to the
battle area...

>If
> trade is truly a major issue and lifeline then a massed herd of raiders
will
> be crippling regardless of any other fleet elements employed.

Until it inevitably gets squashed. Dispersed raiding works better, other
than for targeted strikes, say on a critical system to massacre the
concentration of merhcant shipping there.

>But I think
> most planets with populations sufficient to have significant trade
> connections will have huge internal capacites to produce what they need
> anyway, and huge reserves of whatever they have to import (consider our
> Strategic Oil Reserve).  I see raiders as nothing more than annoyance
attacks
> -- they can't lay seiges, they can't do major battles, and they can't stay
in
> any area too long or some task force will find them and kick their ass --
> that can't be instantly responded to in an adequate manner.  You can't be
> strong everywhere, and if you try you'll be rolled up.  Further, if your
> opponent takes that tonnage that you devoted to patrols and escorts and
uses
> it to build a major fleet element instead, that element will be able to
> stroll through the isolated patrols and escorts like a bull in a china
shop,
> wasting the tonnage you devoted to them.

Assuming he's rich enough to afford a fleet like that. Guerre de Course has
always been the weaker nation's option.

>
>  >> If you "cover all the bases" with warm bodies but have to flee every
>  >> time the heavyweight enemy shows up then what good is that?  There is
no
>  >> substitute for victory, and to get that victory you need the
heavyweights
> and
>  >> you need more of them than your enemy.
>  >
>  >You need greater concentration of force at the critical point. That can
be
>  >done with less ships, better handled and supported.
>
> I don't think you can get "greater concentration of force" with "less
ships".

I have 6 ships, you have 12. I draw 8 of your ships away with a feint, and
gain local superiority. You sent them all? Great. I smash your base. You
sent none? Well, if my recon is up to it I'll know. Next time I just smash
something elsewhere , maybe with pairs of my ships, while you sit tight and
wait for the big clash at JUtland.

>  All other things being equal, if 1/3 of your fleet runs into 2/3 of the
> enemy fleet then you're gonna get smooshed.  Then all your patrols and
> escorts won't matter.

Unless my ships are better/more survivable/able to break off after drawing
you into a predcitable position, so others of my ships can smash stuff
elsewhere.


>
>  >That said, victory is not necessarily gained by defeating the enemy
battle
>  >fleet. If you do that, but he scrubs your industrial worlds with
planetary
>  >raider ships, or kills your economy with commerce raiders, then you may
not
>  >have won at all.
>
> True.  But several points.  1)  If all he has left is raiders, then you'll
> march into _his_ territory with some surviving unopposed capital ships
while
> sending the rest after the raiders, who will be forced to continuously
flee
> with no refuge.

Yes, though you'll have to fight his system defense monitors and meson guns
sites while his raiders play hell with your logistics and maul damaged ships
headed home for repair.

2)  Major industrial worlds will have their own local
> defense forces, and no raider fleet I can imagine will be able to take on
an
> AX (population A, tech (game tech level)) world's local defense force, so
the
> majority of your population should be safe.

Yes. But your logistics and trade may not be. And there is still room for
deception and assymetric attack.

3)  How would you stop this
> anyway?  A large raider force is not expensive to build, but if you try to
> put anti-raider forces sufficient to engage such raiders at every possible
> point they may attack then you won't have much left on your front lines,
and
> the enemy will wind up attacking your industrial worlds not with raiders
but
> with capital ships.

That was my point. Chasing down raiders requires capable ships and many of
them. Your all-dreadnought fleet can't cover enough ground to do it. You
need cruisers and second-line battleships (the Type R battleships did a lot
of Atlantic escort work, and were a powerful deterrernt to surface raiders,
even though they were sometimes outclassed). Point is, you need adequate
low-end escorts and commerce proteciton ships, else your powerful fleet ends
up guarding nothing, with no logistics support top keep it in being.

4)  As for commerce interdiction it will be unpopular
> with the folks, but in my opinion not militarily significant.

Military operations have two axis of atack - they can attack the Means of
the enemy to make war, or the Will to do so. Commerce raiding is a direct
attack on the Will (unhappy people yelling for peace) and an indirect one on
the Means (logistics). It works.

>
>  >> If by patrol you mean scouts, then yes.  But if you mean general
policing
>  >> then I'd think that would be a local police matter and not a fleet
matter.
>  >
>  >I mean patrol ships to defeat piracy, commerce raiding and smuggling,
>
> That's all local.  If a system is really strapped, I'd send some fleet
> escorts to help out.

You have enough of those? RW experience has shown that there are NEVER
enough, and I seem to remember you quoting a very low percentage devoted to
escorts.

>War is not always imminent, after all.  Too, while the
> Imperium cares about some weapons, why should it care about the smuggling
of
> anything else?  "Admiral!  Smugglers are transporting illegal cargos of
> cigarettes to Zivije!"  "Ensign, go there immediately.  Buy me a few
packs."

These activities undermine the commerce of the Imperium, and its ovbserved
rule of law. Dangerous.

>
>  >to
>  >catch enemy intelligence ships and recon vessels
>
> I'd use scouts to watch them, and try to catch them on the way out -- if I
> thought they had relevant information.  What are they going to say?
"There's
> a planet here!"?  "There's some sort of secret facility over here!"?
"There
> were no ships in this system two months ago!"?  But frankly, a traitor
> civilian in a free trader or a seeker would be impossible to detect, and
> would provide just as much information.

Your scouts can be killed by armed recon frigates, or lost in Jump. You
cannot guarantee catching even some recon recon ships. A Jump-6 recon
frigate can bring timely information to a raider squadron on escort and
patrol deployments. Yes, there is a comm lag and thus plenty of fog. But
it's better than nothing. Free Trader traitors might also be useful, but
slower.

>
>  >to prevent the stockpiling of forward supply bases
>
> Scouts would see the incoming traffic, and the fleet would send some
elements
> to check it out.
>
>  >to gain intelligence
>
> Scouts again.

Can your scout ships movve fast enough? Are they survivable enough, and wll
armed to deal with immeduiate threats as they flee? If they are, then
they're naval units.


>
>  >to show the flag and keep systems in line....
>
> I'd use the regular fleet to do that.  "Join the Navy and see the world!"

So your dreadnoughts tour en masse, or independently? You're dispersing your
capital ships?

>
> It's getting late.  I hope I've said something useful with a minimum of
> "noise".

Let's turn this on its head. Can you explain how this model of yours
works...? How do you plan to fight a war with it?










> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 05:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 04:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <99.2a2d475a.2a779a93@aol.com> <3D4A0109.D48E52E6@pobox.com> <005801c23a04$ec770b20$0112bd50@martinjd> <006401c23a0f$3ca9da00$7400a8c0@matt> <003201c23a14$66243100$7d03bd50@martinjd> <00a601c23a14$be1ddbe0$7400a8c0@matt>
Message-ID: <005901c23a1d$16700d60$7d03bd50@martinjd>

> > Why do you want fighters to be more effective?
>
> So that they can have an outside possibility of damaging Capital ships at
> high TL

And again, why do you want this? Barring me swallowing some and suffering
some strange kind of poisoning, no amount of flies can beat me in a straight
fight. My feeling is that fightrers are good for screening and keeping
merchies in line. Big ships are for killing big ships.

> >
> > I see the concept, though you'd have to simulate C3 breakdowns, loss
> > of cohesion etc
>
> Sure, just as soon as we do the same for the escorting PD ships of the
> defending Fleet...

Indeed, though coordinaitng a useful fighter attack requires external comms.
Escorts can operate on internal comms (hard to jam) and even independently,
can be useful if the captains are smart. Uncoordinated fighters are just as
big mess.

>
> HG is pretty abstract anyway, so this level of detail is unnecessary IMHO.
> All I am doing is letting Fighters act like Turrets. If several turrets
can
> concentrate their fire to increase their effectiveness, why can't several
> fighters?

Becuase turrets are controlled with internal comms, hardwired through the
ship, while ifghters have to talk externally and are subject to jamming or
other problems. And becuase you don't get a battery of turrests scattering
due to evasion and having to reform.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <a6.29f91dee.2a7a2a7a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B1E74.16706.D41575@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 2:08, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> This tactic is presented not as a desperation move, but an ordinary
> one to be implemented if said navy can put up with it.  To which I
> responded that no fighter pilot community would tolerate it.  Even
> if the attacking squadron is originally 1000, after two capital
> ships they'll be combat ineffective using this tactic, and there
> will be NO volunteers to replace them until the tactic is discarded. 

That's contrary to history - in WWII many units in all combatants 
armies took those sorts of casualties, and New Zealand, the USA, 
Britain and the USSR (and probably others) all continued to have people 
volunteering throughout the war.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:07:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:07:50 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <91.20daf914.2a7a2267@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B1E74.16846.D4152F@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 1:34, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
 
> Will they come apart if they take 98% casualties between breakfast and lunch? 
>  That is on a level with the original post that started this discussion.

No it wasn't, because the original post didn't specify a proportion, 
merely an absolute quantity.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:08:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:08:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Kit (as our British friends say)
In-Reply-To: <d4.1b055146.2a7a030a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B1E74.26826.D414E9@localhost>

On 31 Jul 2002 at 23:20, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> >In boot camp, when I received my first pay statement (just a receipt, we
> >didn't get any actual checks until graduation) I was shocked to find out
> >that I was actually in the hole to Uncle Sam. I had no idea that every bit
> >of equipment (except loaners like web gear, canteens, and weapons) came out
> >of our own pockets.
> 
> One of my favorite bits of reading is a papyrus detailing the pay record of a 
> Roman soldier in Egypt ca. 250 AD There are deductions for uniform and 
> equipment, mandatory deposit to the unit savings bank, contributions to the 
> burial fund (insurance) and the unit Saturnalia feast (held around the same 
> time as Christmas), and stoppages to pay for a wine bar demolished in the 
> course of a brawl. Every soldier I have ever shown it to marvels at the line 
> on the bottom:
> 
> "Copy 2 of 3, for unit archives"

Doesn't surprise me in the slightest. Those old Sumerian clay tablets 
are all (or almost all) warehousing records and accounts, and the 
Mykenean writing recovered from their palaces is all the same.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:09:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:09:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com>
References: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020802220750.A12763@freeman.little-possums.net>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> How serious is the trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took
> place because the small island of England was not self-sufficient in
> either agricultural or industrial matters, but I don't think this
> situation will arise on many _planets_.

Not for the planets of any meaningful military capacity, anyway.  99%
of the production of the Imperium comes from 10% of the planets.  The
combined trade of those planets with every other planet (including
each other) is about 0.2% of their combined economies.  That means
that whatever they import can't be worth much.

Minor backwaters on "major" trade routes might be crippled.  That
might have political effect on the state as a whole, but no direct
economic or military effect.

The trade situation in the Imperium is *drastically* unlike that
between any group of nations on Earth.  Trade between nations on Earth
is a significant fraction of total economic activity, I would guess
roughly 30-40% based on data from the CIA factbook.  In the Imperium,
trade is less than 0.4%.  If you could disrupt *all* of it, it would
probably have less effect than capturing or destroying the productive
capability of a single hi-pop world.


In short, I agree.  England was hundreds of times more dependent upon
trade than are any of the important planets in Traveller.
Furthermore, raiding ships in Traveller have to contend with system
defences.  There are no mid-ocean battles in Traveller; you're always
fighting in someone's backyard.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:11:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:11:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <8d.1bfa1383.2a7a4253@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B1F74.9458.D7FBED@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 3:50, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>  >> He will shuck and jive, pretend equipment failures, or run.  He most
>  >> certainly won't volunteer for that sort of duty again.
>  >
>  >That's a pretty low opinion of a fellow officer
> 
> A fellow officer, he says!  They wouldn't be officers, they'd be cannon 
> fodder.  And they'd know it.

Interesting that you see figther pilots as having the state of non-
cannon fodder as their natural state, and that they'd be scarce 
resources. I can't see them as being any more or less expendable than 
any other ship crew, as all crew positions that are combat relevant are 
skilled. I also find your position interesting in that it assumes that 
highly skilled people are 'more cautious' (to be polite) than those 
that are supposedly less highly trained/skilled (like grunts).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] [OT] Starship Troopers (was: Comic Book Battles)
In-Reply-To: <B9681E36.3499%shadowjack@skyhighway.com>
Message-ID: <20802.043414.9M3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
>> Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 17:25:19
>
>> Virginia Heinlein agreed to a different script, and was shafted.  She told
>> the SF community that she came close to suing the studio until it was made
>> clear that she would lose.  She appeared on screen at a WorldCon and
>> apologized to the assembled fans for not handling the property better..
>> then set off a near riot by casully mentioning that the same mistakes will
>> not be made with the "Stranger in a Strange Land" movie...
>
> I'm trying to imagine that as a movie, and just can't quite get it through
> my head. Are we talking Hollywood here? "Stranger in a Strange Land"?
> Grokking and all that?

Think "sex and naked chicks". :-|
 
> Gee, who'll they get for "Stranger"?

The first report I recall regarding someone tryng to get backers was
back in 1970...

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:14:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:14:39 2002
Subject: [TML] [OT] Starship Troopers (was: Comic Book Battles)
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEDJEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20802.043609.9X7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Virginia Heinlein agreed to a different script, and was shafted.  She told
>> the SF community that she came close to suing the studio until it was made
>> clear that she would lose.  She appeared on screen at a WorldCon and
>> apologized to the assembled fans for not handling the property better..
>> then set off a near riot by casully mentioning that the same mistakes will
>> not be made with the "Stranger in a Strange Land" movie...
>
> I wonder if she sold all rights or not. In other words could a decent
> filmmaker take another crack at ST in a few years or not?

Not "she". The movie rights were likely sold *decades* ago.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:16:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:16:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <02080212144000.29943@avlendris>
References: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com> <02080212144000.29943@avlendris>
Message-ID: <20020802221422.B12763@freeman.little-possums.net>

Brian Caball wrote:
> If planets are so self sufficient, then why does TNE describe
> planets failing because they were cut off from interstellar trade?

If external trade is so essential to the continued survival of
planets, why is it worth less than 0.4% of the economy?  These two
facts need to be reconciled before any answer can be attempted.

Personally, my opinion is that TNE needed an apocalypse and lack of
trade was just an excuse.  Virus infecting the control systems of high
tech worlds down all the way down to the level of toasters clearly
wasn't enough.  Probably just my personal dislike for post-disaster
settings showing, though.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <005201c23944$b5f3ac40$6e09bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3D4B24F2.20758.ED70D3@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 11:17, MJ Dougherty wrote:

> IE Units will NOT enter routine combat situations where they know
> they will be massacred. 

I think it depends a lot on the chances of success and the value the 
soldier (or pilots, or whatevers) place on that success. If the plan 
calls for the certain death of a good proportion of a unit for a low 
chance of success for an unimportant objective there'll be problems. 
If, OTOH the plan is for several hundred fighters to attack a 
battleship and it's guaranteed that the BB will die for the cost of a 
hundred fighters I think you'd have plenty of volunteers as long as 
there was some benefit in killing that BB (ie it didn't have so many 
friends that your side just couldn't kill them all, etc.)


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:34:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:34:41 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <m3ptx2twnf.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <e6.2be0ca41.2a7a3051@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B24F2.27371.ED703D@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 9:40, Robert Uhl wrote:

> I'll say again: it depends on the size of the wave.  How large were
> the British waves in WWII when 100-200 a night were lost?

Those losses were from the big '1000 bomber' raids. Smaller raids lost 
less aircraft in absolute terms, but often more as a percentage.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:35:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:35:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Kit (as our British friends say)
In-Reply-To: <02080113001703.22132@avlendris>
References: <20020801115445.5089.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B24F2.24886.ED6FF7@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 13:00, Brian Caball wrote:

> 
> > > "Copy 2 of 3, for unit archives"
> >   OMG!!!!! The, the, the......[sigh]......
> 
> This seems to be flying right over my head... is that what the modern 
> equivalents also say or something?

Just about every piece of paper in the military has three or four 
copies of it made. One for the recipient, one for the issuing body's 
archives and one for the parent body's records, plus for many things 
one for military intelligence. The MI's copies of battalion paperwork 
used to be pink, and we got one of just about everything. Right handy 
for working out what was going to happen next - when battalion suddenly 
gets a whole lot of tropical gear you know you're not going to be going 
to Antarctica (in theory anyway).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:37:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:37:04 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <007201c23945$6b27eae0$6e09bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3D4B24F2.5802.ED708D@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 11:22, MJ Dougherty wrote:

> 
> > >Try the loss rates for some of the RAF's 1000 bomber night attacks,
> >  >then. Over 100 bombers in a night wasn't exceptional (IIRC some were
> >  >near the 200 mark) and while that rate was unsustainable it wasn't for
> >  >lack of volunteers, but because aircraft take time to make and crews
> >  >take time to train.
> >
> > Imminent threats to national survival, of course, change casualty rate
> > acceptance.  But the original subject was hundreds of fighter pilots for
> the
> > one or two lucky shots to kill a capital ship as a standard by-the-book
> > tactic.  Never happen.
> 
> Besides, bomber crews did so many missions and then OUT. Your odds of
> getting killed on any one of those missions were relatively small, but they
> stacked up. However, you *knew* you'd probably get out before your number
> came up. Whether it was true or not is another matter, but you knew.... if
> the odds had been 50% chance of death per mission, and you'll keep on being
> sent in again and again, well...

Well the rates for night flights over Germany were up around the 10%+ 
mark for some nights, and were almost never under 5%. I forget how many 
missions made a tour in the RAF, but it was enough that not finshing a 
tour was quite normal. Despite this many crewmen signed up for tour 
after tour until they were shot down or broke under the stress.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:37:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff D. Greenly)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:37:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #859 - 22 msgs
Message-ID: <sd4a444e.089@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>

>Message: 2
>From: Flykiller@aol.com 
>Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 03:11:16 EDT
>Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
>To: tml@travellercentral.com 
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com 
>
>>Would a world that has 80% of its surface covered by water, a dense
>>nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, and one moon that is large enough to
exert a
>>tidal effect tend to be more or less climatically active? Assume
>>moderate (terran-normal) vulcanism and a fairly non-polluting early
TL
>>aqua/agricultural society. Also assume standard polar ice caps and
>>rotation around 20 deg. off the plane of the ecliptic. I'll welcome
any
>>and all comments...
>
>I've often wondered along those lines.  If you look at our system the
size 2 
>moon is at the very limit (book 6) of its possible orbit, yet when
generating 
>traveller systems it is quite possible to have much larger moons
orbiting 
>much closer to their world.  The tides would be huge.  I would imagine
there 
>would be very few costal cities throughout most systems, because
they'd be 
>flooded by 50 foot tides.
>
>As I understand it weather is caused mostly by heat transfer across a

>planet's surface.  Since your world has a 20 degree axial tilt then I
would 
>think its weather would be about comparable to Terra's.  If denser
atmosphere 
>holds more heat then it should be more active.

Mr. Fly,

Thanks for replying... I haven't generated all of the other system
details, so I have a few variables still missing. The planet that I am
currently working on, Knorbes (Regina/SM), is a tough world to do
because it's geography is very Terran, it's rich, agricultural, and has
80 million-plus people governed by a civil serrvice bureaucracy, and is
at tech level 2, which isn't easy to reconcile. The big hangup for me is
(always) the physical science. You see, I spent most of my time in the
Liberal Arts when I was in school, and it did me an irrepairable brain
injury. Traveller is therapy for me now. Anyway, it sounds to me like
you are on the right track. The questions I have are, does a dense
atmosphere hold more energy? Wouldn't it take that much more energy to
"move" a dense atmosphere into weather changes? Would the world's oceans
act as thermal "batteries", and if so, how would they affect the
weather? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the matter...

Jeff

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:38:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:38:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <F228Wv2vyWb6cxHKx7000010140@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B2568.16012.EF3EB3@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 15:57, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

> 
>      "...although not as bad as the Swordfish(1)."
> 
> 
> Ladies and Gentlemen,
> 
>      Please excuse me, I forgot to add the footnote.
> 
> 
> (1) - The Swordfishs' very obs0lescence may have actually helped it survive 
> in battle.  A most likely apophrycal story from the Bismarck saga has the 
> German AA fire missing the attacking Swordfish because the aircraft were 
> moving too SLOW, the AA crews led their targets by too much.  Swordfish made 
> their torpedo runs at ~90 mph and weather conditions could drop that speed 
> even further.
>      The Swordfish may been viwed as a joke by other navies, it still got 
> the job done at Taranto and with the Bismarck however.

I'm pretty sure that their slow speed wasn't a factor in the Bismark 
action, but it was a factor in the 'Channel Dash' (as was piss poor 
communications on the British side).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <2d16412cfe49.2cfe492d1641@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <3D4B26E5.29810.F51057@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 20:20, john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:

> OTOH, the Stringbag was never sent into battle against carrier-based 
> fighters.  The TBD pilots at Midway, meanwhile, had to try to survive 
> without fighter cover against the A6M Zero.  Hardly a fair contest (of 
> course, any military leader who tries to fight war _fairly_ isn't doing 
> the job correctly).

However Swordfish did go up against serious air-cover during the 
'Channel Dash' by Scharnhost and Gneisenau and while their losses 
weren't insignificant they weren't as high as they might have been, 
largely because they were flying so slowly that the German fighters 
couldn't line up and get decent firing positions on them. The Beauforts 
which were somewhat faster and had a (slightly) better defensive 
armament took quite a hammering, IIRC.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Character Conversions
Message-ID: <20020802124732.56CF54505@mo130uhou.palm.net>



David Smart <jurrubin@earthlink.net> wrote:
[snip]
> I've just finished converting a Zho generated from the CT 
>Zho supplement into GT and he's practically god-like (rolled incredibly well 
>back in '87 for psionics). 
[snip] 
>Then again, I've played this guy through 5 long-term campaigns. Great for solo 
>runs but a bit overpowering with other, more youthful characters. 

Sounds like a great reoccuring villian.

----------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere. 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CDE@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <3D4B28F8.948.FD2916@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 16:42, Hurrel, Brian wrote:

> "No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy."
> 
> I'm paraphrasing, and can't remember who said this. Maybe Clausewitz(SP?).

Moltke, IIRC, but it's probably about as old as warfare itself.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 07:16:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Fri Aug  2 06:16:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020802092329.00a31a10@mail.buffnet.net>

Has anyone noted the set up with regards to the number of starports that 
can produce starships versus those that can only builld system ships?  And 
to make matters worse, there aren't that many high tech star ports around


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 07:17:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Marsh)
Date: Fri Aug  2 06:17:06 2002
Subject: [TML] re: juries
Message-ID: <F91hrbvkBs9XMgFNhPt000249a8@hotmail.com>

I have served on a number of juries here in the good 'ol USA (1 civil, 2 
criminal) and in general have always been impressed by how careful and 
deliberate people have been in trying to be fair as well as seek justice 
within the constraints of the case as it is given. I have always come out of 
the process feeling much better about the US jury system. I was on one drug 
case where we just KNEW the guy was guilty but the state failed to prove the 
case beyond a reasonable doubt so we could not find him guilty. The cops 
just didn't get the goods on him.


>From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>To: "Traveller-Digest" <tml@travellercentral.com>
>Subject: [TML] re:  juries
>Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 15:53:12 -0700
>
> >From: Flykiller@aol.com
>
>someone wrote:
> >Amateur juries
> >seem to me to be ill equipped to handle many kinds of cases.
>
>Flykiller@aol.com replied:
> >True.  And irrelevant to why they exist.  Juries aren't meant to be
> >professional, quite the opposite.  Juries are meant to be a last and 
>final
> >check and balance against governmental power over individual citizens.  
>The
> >government can't put anyone in jail unless they can get a bunch of 
>amateur
> >citizens to agree.  It's preferable to the alternative.
>
>If you can't explain your case so that twelve ordinary people understand 
>it,
>then you don't understand your case adequately.
>
>--Glenn
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml




_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 07:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  2 06:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <200208021317.LXD04141@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>
>In short, I agree.  England was hundreds of times more 
>dependent upon trade than are any of the important planets 
>in Traveller.
>Furthermore, raiding ships in Traveller have to contend with 
>system defences.  There are no mid-ocean battles in 
>Traveller; you're always fighting in someone's backyard.

IMHO, in major systems that are hi-pop, hi-tech, with large 
industrial bases, the critical resources are on more than 
just one planet - there are probably mining bases all over 
the system - the gas giants must be defended to keep enemy 
ships from refuelling - and for economical reasons, there may 
be more than one high port.

A large system like this would have to maintain a 
considerable number of ships in order to defend these assets, 
and protect shipping between these points.  Convoys may be 
forced to use jump ships to do intrasystem jumps to avoid 
raiders, and ships inbound/outbound from the system would 
have to jump at the 100D limit without fail after being 
escorted the entire distance to and from the port.

In essence, laying siege to such a system might first mean 
whittling down the system defense boats and local fighters 
with fighter raids and light commerce raiders.  You might, 
after a time, be left only with your larger monitors, port 
defenses, and planetary defense sites.  Ships as small as 
fighters may also lay mines on courses to sweep through 
traffic areas.  I would bet that for such an advanced system, 
while it might well be able to subsist on its own, it won't 
profit as much, especially if it engages in trade with a 
nearby world of similar stature.  It would even affect local 
trade, and local merchant shipping would be affected, even if 
losses were light.

A continuous series of light hit and run raids would force 
diversion of assets you would ordinarily use elsewhere, or 
force the construction and maintenance of substantial non-
jump forces.  If you chose to ignore the raiding on the idea 
that it doesn't affect your economy too much, the locals who 
live there might be of another opinion.  It would also invite 
a full scale assault after a time.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 08:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Fri Aug  2 07:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Warships
References: <b4.f32c32a.2a76d569@aol.com> <3D487967.3734.F911EB@localhost>
Message-ID: <043b01c23a2f$bc26f9a0$1f9e15ac@warrior>

> Firstly, Planets are big, have vast reserves of power, and can have have
an
> effective armarment far beyond that of even the largest fleet. Secondly,
> working around a planet is the space equivlent of naval "confined waters".
> Maneuver is severely restricted and ranges are short. These two things
> mean that interface combat around a well defended world will be brutal and
> any vessel not specifically designed for it will become a glowing hulk
very
> quickly. Of course the problem is that such vessels have limited
> usefulness outside their designed role and virtually none in peacetime.
>

This brings up one of my revelations about strategic combat in traveller.
After realizing this, it occurred to the that strategic warfare functions a
lot like strategic warfare in medieval of renaissance times.  I.E. where
defense is stronger than offense.  Medieval or Renaissance armies almost
never fought battles.  Battles are dicey affairs where things can go either
way.  Nobody wants that.  Mostly the armies would lay siege to castles and
fortresses, taking them slowly by starvation or rarely, quickly by storm.

I imagine that to large insteller states at war with one and other in
Traveller would operate the same way.  Nobody wants to get into a pitched
fleet battle unless he or she has a clear and obvious advantage.  Most of
the time the fleets jump in system, establish a blockade, and threaten drop
big ass rocks on a world to try to arrange a surrender.  If the world
doesn't surrender, you either bombard/assault (I.e. storm) or blockade and
wait them out (I.e. starve).


later
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 08:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Aug  2 07:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Blowing holes in Japan (was " Re Patton")
Message-ID: <F2374oW3zJzsGOJZ6Fz00024494@hotmail.com>

From: "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com>

     "[1]IIRC, Emporer Hirohito - who continued to see *absolutely nothing 
wrong* in the abuses his soldiers inflicted on prisoners until the day he 
died..."


Mr. Rowse,

     The behavior of the Japanese military in WW2 is one of the least 
studied aspects of that conflict.  During Japan's rise to first a regional, 
then a hemispheric power, her armed forces were consistently praised by 
observers for their model behavior.  Both the IJA and IJN recieved this 
praise during the Sino-Japanese and Russo-Japanese wars and during WW1.
     When they began to invade and occupy China proper in the early 30's, 
the wheels seemed to come off however.  Japanese troops were soon notorious 
for their behavior.  None of their actions needs repeating here, but they 
equalled, if not exceeded, those of the Nazis for ferocity, if not 
organization.
     Still, there were isolated examples of Japanese units behaving as their 
fathers and grandfathers may have.  During the Leyte Gulf brawl, various USN 
DDs and DEs sacrificed themselves so that the CVEs of Taffy 3 could flee 
from the BBs and CAs of the IJN's Central Force.  The crew of one CE, still 
clinging to the wreckage of their ship, reported that the crew of an IJN CA 
passing by MANNED THE RAILS and saluted them.  However, the crew of another 
sunken CE was sprayed with MG and pom-pom fire as an IJN warship passed.
     IMHO, Hirohito should have mounted the scaffold ahead of Tojo.  He was 
intimately involved in the planning and operation of both the China and 
Pacific wars.  If SCAP needed the stability an emperor brought to Japan, 
then an infant, with a regent, should have been installed on the throne.(1)
     One fact that people hashing out the 1945 A-bomb decision tend to 
forget is that the US was reading most of Japan's diplomatic and political 
dispatches in real time.  The US knew in August of '45 that the Imperial War 
Cabinet was still adament about continuing the war and was taking 
precautions to do just that.  They still had 5 million men in uniform in on 
the Asian mainland and were beginning to shift them to the home islands to 
meet Operations Cornet and Olympic.
     Even after the SECOND use of the bomb, at Nagasaki, the Imperial War 
Cabinet was deadlocked on the question to surrender.  Hirohito had to cast 
the tie-breaking vote, only the second time in modern Imperial Japanese that 
the emperor had had to vote at all.(2)
     Once Hirohito's surrender speech had been recorded for broadcast, a 
cabal of army officers still came within a whisker of seizing and destroying 
that record.
     An invasion of the Home Islands may not have resulted in the one 
million Allied casulties bandied about, but it still would have been costly. 
  Occupation would have been costly still.  The Japanese, unlike the Nazis, 
had made real plans and provisions for a post-surrender terrorist/resistance 
campaign.
     An Allied invasion would have also included the USSR.  There could have 
been a Tokyo wall to match the one in Berlin.  Today, Japan could be 
struggling to assimilate and rebuild Hokkaido and the northern half of 
Honshu, just as the Germans are still trying to deal with the eastern 
portions of their recently reunited nation.
     Also, an Allied/USSR invasion in 1945 would mean that the entire Korean 
penninsular would now be under the control of the freaks in Pyongyang.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

(1) The Allies had the "recent" (1919) example of Imperial Germany in their 
minds.  An infant grandson of Kaiser Bill installed with a regent may have 
helped the post-WW1 governments of Germany with their problems of internal 
credibility.

(2) The only other time the Emperor had voted, IIRC, was to break the tie 
for the adoption of the Imperial Constitution during the Meiji era.

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 08:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Maksim-Smelchak)
Date: Fri Aug  2 07:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"
In-Reply-To: <151.11ceca62.2a7b936d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPIEEGEDAA.max200@lanset.com>

>>> "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!" >>>

Under the rules of war, we've been discussing, if an enemy intentionally
builds fortifications or other military structures among a civilian
populance, then that enemy becomes rssponsible for the safety of those
aforementioned civilians. If those civilians are actively and willfully
supporting the enemy, then they are no longer considered noncombatants. So,
it IS Al Quaida's fault and responsibility if the US intentionally seeks to
bomb a legitimate military target that Al Qaida has hidden behind a human
shield.

Like someone mentioned earlier, barbarians (or terrorists in our case)
follow no rules, regulations, or niceties. However, we still follow those
rules in the hopes that the enemy might eventually see that war can become a
little less horrible (or barbaric) if we avoid the very worst that war can
bring (biological weapons, chemical weapons, rapine, etc.).

I don't blame the Israelis, the US, India, or any other nation if they incur
civilian casualties to destroy enemies who cravenly use the populations that
they claim their violence advocates as human shields.

On another point, I wouldn't support the dehumanization of another people,
but I also don't support covering up inhuman acts of an enemy for
"humanistic reasons" such as the media mostly forgetting to report on
Palestinian celebrations every time innocent babies and women are killed by
terrorist bombs in the US, Israel, India, or elsewhere. Granted that the
Palestinian Arab thugs threaten reporters with their lives and confiscate
media materials, but there is an element of will involved with reporters who
are willing to risk their lives to enter mostly lawless areas, but aren't
willing to sends their reports back to their publication headquarters.

There are a lot of ideas here to throw at characters in a Traveller
campaign!

Cheers,
Maksim-Smelchak.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Flykiller@aol.com
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 12:49 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Patton

 >The Germans, and
 >particularly the Japanese were horribly dehumanized.  We made our enemies
 >into monsters so then it was OK to exterminate them.

Seems to be part of the human condition.  Not only is the enemy an inhuman
monster and responsible for any and all evil, _we_ are pure as the
wind-driven snow in any and all circumstances. "It's Al Qaida's fault we
bombed a wedding party!"



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 08:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Fri Aug  2 07:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <20020802101235.98a3bb14da2249719a2c69a0b3078a17.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>> (1) - The Swordfishs' very obs0lescence may have actually helped it survive 
>> in battle.  A most likely apophrycal story from the Bismarck saga has the 
>> German AA fire missing the attacking Swordfish because the aircraft were 
>> moving too SLOW, the AA crews led their targets by too much.  Swordfish made 
>> their torpedo runs at ~90 mph and weather conditions could drop that speed 
>> even further.
>>      The Swordfish may been viwed as a joke by other navies, it still got 
>> the job done at Taranto and with the Bismarck however.
>
>I'm pretty sure that their slow speed wasn't a factor in the Bismark 
>action, but it was a factor in the 'Channel Dash' (as was piss poor 
>communications on the British side).

Were they?  I do not remember any FAA torpedo squadrons involved, and the
only torpedo squadron the RAF's Coastal Command had in England (The rest
were in the Med.) had Beauforts, if I remember correctly.

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

 My Sale List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
 My Want List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 09:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Aug  2 08:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Japan, Al Quaida et al
In-Reply-To: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPIEEGEDAA.max200@lanset.com>
References: <151.11ceca62.2a7b936d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B4813.21851.61BFC53@localhost>

Okay, may I please ask people to remember that the TML contains a wide 
variety of people with vastly differing views on a huge range of subjects and 
IMHO that this is not the place to rehash our world's nasty past (or 
present). I think discussing the Imperial Rules of War is great, I think 
discussing and laying blame for the tragedies of the real world is not. I 
believe we have a list (TML-chat) for that purpose.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 09:05:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Fri Aug  2 08:05:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <20020802102615.30aca70d97e74ef18326726c229541ca.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>On 1 Aug 2002 at 20:20, john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:
>
>> OTOH, the Stringbag was never sent into battle against carrier-based 
>> fighters.  The TBD pilots at Midway, meanwhile, had to try to survive 
>> without fighter cover against the A6M Zero.  Hardly a fair contest (of 
>> course, any military leader who tries to fight war _fairly_ isn't doing 
>> the job correctly).
>
>However Swordfish did go up against serious air-cover during the 
>'Channel Dash' by Scharnhost and Gneisenau and while their losses 
>weren't insignificant they weren't as high as they might have been, 
>largely because they were flying so slowly that the German fighters 
>couldn't line up and get decent firing positions on them. The Beauforts 
>which were somewhat faster and had a (slightly) better defensive 
>armament took quite a hammering, IIRC.

Well, it would have greatly improved the British chances of attacking the
German ships if it did not take until just before the Germans were passing
the Straits of Dover to even know they were at sea.  At least then, the
Brits could have had time to assemble an all-out attack instead of send the
aircrafts in dribbles and drabs which allowed the Luftwaffe to kill them.
One of Adolf Galland's finer moments, providing air cover for the cruisers.

There is also an interesting story of how one of the Britsh destroyers that
had sailed to engage the German ships had to turn back for port with engine
trouble.  While she was heading back, the RAF pulled a case of mistaken
identity and attacked her, only to be chased away by a flight of German
Bf-109s who then protected the destoyer and provided top cover until they
ran low on fuel...without ever realizing who they were defending...

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

 My Sale List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
 My Want List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 09:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Aug  2 08:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <20020802101235.98a3bb14da2249719a2c69a0b3078a17.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <3D4B49A4.30448.6221A7B@localhost>

On 2 Aug 2002, at 10:14, Cheng Tseng wrote:

> Were they?  I do not remember any FAA torpedo squadrons involved, and the only
> torpedo squadron the RAF's Coastal Command had in England (The rest were in
> the Med.) had Beauforts, if I remember correctly.

#825 Sqd, Lt Cmdr Esmonde led six Swordfish against the Scharnhorst, 
Gneisenau and Prinz Eugen with their escorts and heavy fighter cover. All 
six were shot down and only by a miracle did 5 of the 18 crew survive. Lt 
Cmdr Esmonde received the FAA's first VC for the attack.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 09:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 08:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <200208021543.g72Fhlw12656@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
...
>Raider-carriers are an excellent idea. I wonder if escort carriers could

  You can upgrade a target to carry a SOTA 50-Dt FH in a 100 ton
bay used for cargo in peacetime.

>counter them. Or if they could carry enough fighters to scrub a decent light
>cruiser before it closed and killed the carrier. Or....

  Sadly, HG2 doesn't allow those sorts of complications, but
any of the hex-based Trav games make riders/carriers _much_ 
less attractive for precisely that reason.

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 10:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 09:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <11ad10118abc.118abc11ad10@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Date: Thursday, August 1, 2002 10:45 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Patton

> on 8/1/02 12:31 PM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:
> 
> > and kill his wife and children.  Don't torture him if you capture
> > him.  In fact, if you capture him he's no longer a threat, so don't
> > kill him at all.
> 
> More than that, if you treat your prisoners well, and the enemy 
> knows it,
> they may be more inclined to surrender.  Would the Iraqis have 
> surrenderedin droves if we were shooting them out of hand and 
> putting their heads on
> poles?  I don't think so.

I forget which historian pointed out that the two pieces of information 
that travel most swiftly through an army in combat are the quality of 
care in one's own hospitals and the way in which the enemy treats 
captured personnel.  Poor prospects in the first case tends to reduce an 
army's effectiveness (who want to risk wounds if a trip to the hospital 
is nearly a guaranteed death sentence?), while poor prospects in the 
latter case tends to increase an army's willingness to fight ("if 
they're going to kill me anyway, I may as well take some of them with 
me!").

Besides, "dead men tell no tales."  In other words, if we kill prisoners 
of war (especially if we kill enemy soldiers trying to surrender), I 
can't interrogate them. ;-)




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 10:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 09:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <13b8e513938c.13938c13b8e5@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
Date: Friday, August 2, 2002 2:08 am
Subject: Re: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships

<<snip>>
> 
> If Side A wins the battle, does this mean they attempt to 
> salvage some Side B ships?  Is there a nuclear scuttle option 
> for capital ships to prevent enemy use?  Or would Side A 
> plant nuclear demolition charges on the wrecks of Side B to 
> ensure that damaged ships are not recovered?

This is from memory, so I may be off slightly....

Well, there is the case of _Bard Endeavour_, an AHL-class fleet 
intruder, during the Solomani Rim War.  The Solomani initiated a 
boarding action to capture the disabled vessel, which was in an unstable 
orbit with inoperable maneuver drives (but a working jump drive).  The 
few survivors of _Bar Endeavour's_ crew managed a textbook example of 
how to resist boarding; the Solomani boarding party was unable to take 
engineering or the auxiliary bridge and eventually evacuated.  47 (IIRC) 
crewbeings rode _Bard Endeavour_ in a catastrophic reentry.

No scuttling charges, but a documented attempt to seize a disabled enemy 
ship.

> ________________
> "I am Weasel!"

"Hear me roar! ;-)"



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 10:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 09:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <3D4B1E74.16706.D41575@localhost>
References: <a6.29f91dee.2a7a2a7a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020802094028.36370018@pop.mindspring.com>

At 12:06 AM 8/3/2002 +1200, you wrote:
>On 1 Aug 2002 at 2:08, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
>
>> This tactic is presented not as a desperation move, but an ordinary
>> one to be implemented if said navy can put up with it.  To which I
>> responded that no fighter pilot community would tolerate it.  Even
>> if the attacking squadron is originally 1000, after two capital
>> ships they'll be combat ineffective using this tactic, and there
>> will be NO volunteers to replace them until the tactic is discarded. 
>
>That's contrary to history - in WWII many units in all combatants 
>armies took those sorts of casualties, and New Zealand, the USA, 
>Britain and the USSR (and probably others) all continued to have people 
>volunteering throughout the war.

See the lines to volunteer for the British Army after Dunkirk or the US
Navy after Pearl Harbor.

People never believe it will happen to them.  It's the other guy that will
die.  Even after two years of trench warfare, troops were *still* going
over the top in futile charges.

The US Army did studies in which they discovered that the longest that a
solider can stay in a combat zone is about 100 days.  After that, he falls
apart.  So the Army began rotating units to rest areas so they could
recharge a little and get roaring drunk and contract VD before going back
into the line.  It will be harder for the Imperium to do this, but I think
it would be a priority to establish some sort of safe zone for the troops.
-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Animals who are not penguins can only wish they were.
-Chicago reader, 10/15/82

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 10:50:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 09:50:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <3D4B1F74.9458.D7FBED@localhost>
References: <8d.1bfa1383.2a7a4253@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020802094239.36dff48c@pop.mindspring.com>

At 12:10 AM 8/3/2002 +1200, you wrote:
>On 1 Aug 2002 at 3:50, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
>
>>  >> He will shuck and jive, pretend equipment failures, or run.  He most
>>  >> certainly won't volunteer for that sort of duty again.
>>  >
>>  >That's a pretty low opinion of a fellow officer
>> 
>> A fellow officer, he says!  They wouldn't be officers, they'd be cannon 
>> fodder.  And they'd know it.
>
>Interesting that you see figther pilots as having the state of non-
>cannon fodder as their natural state, and that they'd be scarce 
>resources. I can't see them as being any more or less expendable than 
>any other ship crew, as all crew positions that are combat relevant are 
>skilled. I also find your position interesting in that it assumes that 
>highly skilled people are 'more cautious' (to be polite) than those 
>that are supposedly less highly trained/skilled (like grunts).

Hell, as a sniper I was considered to be a highly-skilled soldier (not
cannon-fodder) and was expected to do insane things that were extremely
dangerous and most often fatal.  Snipers are rarely taken prisoner.  Enemy
troops tend to kill them when they are caught.  Doesn't stop the flow of
volunteers.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 10:51:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 09:51:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller HIDING
In-Reply-To: <124.1460d565.2a7b535d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020802094449.364f9a92@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:15 PM 8/1/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>Yes, basking in verbally-asserted superiority is indeed much more pleasant 
>than risking actual defeat.  But of course indulging in this makes you a 
>coward.

Uncalled for.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 10:52:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 09:52:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <140bd3139f9e.139f9e140bd3@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: James Ramsay <quakers_united@yahoo.com.au>
Date: Friday, August 2, 2002 2:23 am
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller

> QUOTE
> This tactic is presented not as a desperation move,
> but an ordinary one to be implemented if said navy can
> put up with it.  To which I responded that 
> no fighter pilot community would tolerate it.  Even if
> the attacking squadron is originally 1000, after two
> capital ships they'll be combat ineffective 
> using this tactic, and there will be NO volunteers to
> replace them until the tactic 
> is discarded.
> END QUOTE
> 
> But wouldn't more people die if it was cap ship vs.
> cap ship?

<tongue-in-cheek>

Yes, but (assuming that Imperial Navy practice is similar to US Navy 
practice since the end of WW II) the fighter pilots are all officers and 
gentlemen, while many of the capital ship crewbeings are mere ratings.

</tongue-in-cheek>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Meduim Navies
Message-ID: <3D4AB9A9.6B6DB02@mail.cswnet.com>

Three years ago Ian Ferguson posted a wonderful little thing called
"Small
Navies". I liked the idea very much, since I tried doing a straight TCS
and 
discovered that it created massive navies. However, Ian's "Small Navies"
was
just to small for my taste. I wanted something that would look like the
Fifth Frontier War Game, but not as big as a straight TCS Campaign. So,
after some thought, I've ginned this up. I call it "Meduim Navies".

Items used:
Ian Fergusons' "Small Navies" post (for budget modifiers)
Adventure 5 Trillion Credit Squadron
Striker (for apportionment).

Step one:
Generate peacetime naval budget

peacetime naval budget: Cr50 per person
	xTCS peacetime government type modifier (1.3 for type 7)
	x1.5 for Rich Worlds
	x.5 for Poor Worlds
	x2 for Independant Worlds

Step two:
Apportion Initial Naval Budget

70% goes to planetary and colonial navies
30% goes to Imperial forces

Step three:
Initial fleet budget

Per Adventure 5, ten times peacetime budget.
Apportioned 80% current tech, 20% lower tech.

For worlds TL6-, allow for mercenaries to be hired
at half the budget that would have gone to the navy.
Using meduim navies, this will allow for allot of 
mercenary ships, which ought to be more plentiful
than they seem to be. I would be interested in knowing
exactly how large a ship the Imperuim would permit Mercs
to use, and what armament the 3I would allow them to have.
Thoughts anyone?

Alternately, you could allow for the Imperial Scout Service
to recieve this money. Whatever floats your boat.

Initial Fleets, Lunion subsector

Imperial Navy MCr 2,835,544.748

Wardn. MCr 55
Smoug MCr 14700
Rabwhar MCr115,500 [divided by 2 and converted to Starport A TL12
Credits,
MCr 26497.0589. This would give Rabwhar something in the neighborhood of
57-58 Type C Merc Cruisers].
Adabicci MCr 322,000
Zaibon MCr 148.75
Ianic MCr 5433.75 [divided by 2 and converted to Starport A TL12
Credits,
MCr 894.9705. Gives Ianic a Type C Merc Cruiser and a couple of
escorts].
Spirelle MCr 312,375
Derchon MCr 36,225
Lunion MCr 3,080,000
Shirine MCr 252
Harvoset MCr 14175
Perisephone MCr 28350
Capon MCr 17,850
Strouden MCr 3,465,000

Note that I do not divide planetary and subsector navies. Basically,
my attitude is if it jumps its part of the subsector navy, if it 
doesn't jump its part of the planetary navy/coacc. Population is
from Spinward Marches campaign [eg Arba pop 2 multiplier 6, 600 people].
Pop differs from BTC but makes things easier/more uniform for the tax
preparer. I've also done this for the Lanth subsector. The Imperial
Navy gets MCr 68673.42 there for its initial fleet. Not having a High
Pop worlds makes a big difference.

This does take a little bit of work to do, but once you get the initial
fleet budgets up, you can get ahold of Andrew Moffat Vallences' High 
Guard Shipyard and Trillion Credit Squadron programs and build navies
to your hearts content.

I've already started on this for Adabicci. Its not complete yet, but
here is a partial list, using some ships built by AMV and some built 
by me.

TL11 Adabicci Squadron
1xArkansas [Washington Class] Battleship [!!!] 
Note: Thanks for building this Andrew, I've gotten a big kick out of
it.
5xCasiopia Destroyers
10xDaring Missile Boats
1xGriffon Missile  Boat Tender
5xT11  class Patrol Cruisers
10xType S class Scouts
5xBattle class Couriers
2xAmbush class Destroyers
5xFolgore class Assault Ships

TL10 Adabicci Squadron
10xDFC Frigates
30xAndrea Doria Auxilliary Transports

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Friends in High Places, Part Four.
In-Reply-To: <151.11ceca62.2a7b936d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020802120329.00793b30@minn.net>

                     Friends in High Places
                                
                           Part Four


     The walls of the Municipal Jail in Oshkosh on Regina were
painted in a standard institutional shade of light green. The
light reflected from the walls gave all persons and physical
objects in the jail a greenish tinge in appearance.
     "There is no spoon." Said Dana Wolfsburg. 
     Nothing happened.
     "There's no knives or forks either." Said the assistant
gunner, who very obviously failed to get the flat-film reference.
     The four members of the landing party were in the men's
holding tank at the Municipal Jail. Even though her gender on the
Imperial identification card was listed as female, Dana was stuck
in the men's tank because the local police gene-scanner persisted
in identifying her as a male human. This would merely be annoying
if the four crew members from the CHAUCHAT were alone in the
men's holding tank.
     Nursing a variety of non-lethal blunt-force injuries at the
other end of the holding tank were the surviving male members of
the local Orthodox Bargerite congregation. Three of them had been
dumb enough to actually shoot at the Imperial Marines who were
called in to deal with the armed altercation between the
Bargerites and the crew of the CHAUCHAT. The Marines promptly and
permanently removed the three trigger happy Bargerites from the
human gene pool.
     The door of the men's holding tank opened. Four Marines in
full battle dress and wielding stun-staffs walked in and formed a
line between the Bargerites and the landing party. Following the
Marines into the room was the Captain of the former Imperial Navy
Ship CHAUCHAT. 
     "Before you leave this joint," said Dennis Sterling to his
crew, "I want all of you to know that I, really and truly, DO NOT
enjoy asking for favors from Imperial officials."
     Dennis paused for dramatic effect.
     "Do all of you understand?"
     They did. The assistant gunner spoke up.
     "Are we taking your ex-wife with us?"
     Dennis glared at the subordinate, before he could give voice
to an answer to the damned question there came a noise from
across the cell. One of the Bargerites stood up and voiced with
obscene embellishment his claim to Helen, the former wife of the
Captain. With clenched fists the thug attempted to charge at the
Captain. Before the Marines could act, Dennis drew his pistol and
placed an 11.4 mm round through the thug's forehead.
     Captain Sterling glared at the remaining Bargerites.
     "Anyone else want to try me?"

     Doc continued to stare at the Tarot deck sitting on the
floor before her. 
     What was the point of having a Tarot deck if she wasn't
going to use it? The feeling of impending doom wasn't about to go
away by itself. At least do a three card spread.
     Doc picked up the deck and started to shuffle it.

     Ditzie was waiting at the front desk of the local jail, she
was sitting on a black ballistic cloth duffle bag. Standing next
to her was a Vargr in a black trench coat with black sunglasses.  
     Dennis introduced the Vargr to the rest of his crew.
     "This is Daevagh, he was a Lieutenant Commander in the
Imperial Navy, and he will be our navigator on the coming
voyage."
     The other crew members were worried, what voyage?
     Ditzie stood and spoke up.
     "We're going to the Vargr Extents!"
     
     Even though the Captain wasn't present, Doc decided to use
his as the Querent, the person for whom the divination was being
performed. A reasonable choice since the fate of all souls aboard
the CHAUCHAT was bound up to his.
     The first card Doc drew was the Page of Swords, not much of
a surprise there, the Captain was a former naval intelligence
officer.

     Dennis had other unfinished business to attend to, he
stepped into the women's holding cell. Loosely bunched at one end
of the cell were the female companions of the Orthodox
Bargerites, they were either unconscious or too badly injured to
move. Sitting on a bench at the other end of the cell was his
former wife, Helen. 
     Dennis raised an eyebrow in a Spock-like manner, there was
once a time when he would have wondered how Helen ended up with
the Angels of Hell. He spoke to her.
     "It appears Madame, that you were not subjected to a proper
strip search." 
     Helen stood up and slowly walked over to him.  In height she
only came up to his nose.
     "Do you want to do a proper strip search now?" She cooed.
     "Madame," he answered, "if it were entirely up to me I would
leave you here with your friends." He gestured to the pile of
beat-up Barger-babes on the other side of the cell.
     "But," he continued, "I've been directed by the Imperial
authorities to remove you from this planet." 
     Helen's facial expression changed from sweet and seductive
to a focused frown.
     "So," Dennis concluded, "let us not make this situation any
more unpleasant than it has to be."
 
     The second card that Doc drew from the deck was The Fool,
reversed. The card normally depicted a young man and his dog
embarking on a journey of discovery. Reversed, the card meant
that the journey would be fraught with hazards. 

     The police sergeant at the front desk was being difficult.
He was refusing to return the weapons seized from the landing
party. The pistols would have been easy enough to replace, but
replacing the customized Advanced Combat Rifles would have taken
time that Dennis and his crew could ill afford to waste. 
     "Sergeant," Dennis again pulled out and unfolded a sheet of
official Imperial Stationary from his pocket, "what part of this
warrant did you not understand?"
     The desk sergeant originally seemed happy to see Captain
Sterling walk in through the front door of the jail, until the
Captain pulled out a Ducal Warrant and a squad of Marines. 
     "Do I have to read it to you again?"

     Doc drew the third card from the deck.
     It was The Tower.
     "Oh, shit..."

     The Lone Sniper woke up with the taste of mud and plastic in
his mouth. He felt like he was immersed in warm water.
     The last thing that he remembered was his falling from a
radio and navigational light tower at a landing field on the
planet Regina. Fortunately, he fell flat forward into the pool of
muddy water adjacent to the concrete base of the tower.
Unfortunately, the water at the point of impact was only fifteen
centimeters deep.
     The Lone Sniper opened his eyes. He was secured by straps
and surgical tape in an Imperial standard regeneration tank in a
hospital somewhere on Regina.
     This wouldn't be so bad if he was unconscious. 
     Except of course for the fact that patients in the regen
tank aren't supposed to be wide awake.  
     The Lone Sniper couldn't even scream this time.

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:08:02 2002
Subject: JTAS Contest (was: Re: [TML] warship optimization in traveller)
Message-ID: <15003d14e409.14e40915003d@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: David Shayne <daveshayne@ameritech.net>
Date: Friday, August 2, 2002 4:24 am
Subject: Re: [TML] warship optimization in traveller

> > From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
> > Date: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 11:41 pm
> >
> 
> <snip>
> 
> > For JTAS subscribers, the recently-completed starship design 
> > contest (Contest #10) had some excellent hospital ships, albeit 
> > mostly using design sequences other than HG2.  Note, though, 
> that 
> > the winning design (not mine, sad to say) was built using HG2.
> 
> That design would have been mine. And IMHO it wasn't the best 
> design in
> that contest. I won, I believe, because of my shameless 
> misappropriationof 20th century american pop culture icons. (I 
> must have been channeling
> Dave Nilsen)

Just out of curiosity, which one did you vote for?  I was caught up in 
the actual deployment from Ft. Carson to Sinai, so I didn't submit a 
vote, but I probably would have voted for _Sanctuary_, the 300,000 dton 
converted Fleet Support Tanker [*].
> 
> All of which reminds me that I have to firm up the details for the 
> nextdesign contest.

Now that I have relatively reliable Internet access again, I eagerly 
await the next JTAS contest [**].

[*] Actually, I liked my own design best, but I've always viewed voting 
for your own ship in such a contest as gauche.

[**] For those who would like to participate, just go to the 
Starship/Vehicle Design discussion board on JTAS.  Not a subscriber?  
Why not?  It's only $15 US per two years for biweekly issues and access 
to archives, discussion boards and Brubek's chat room.  [And if you 
mention that aurictech referred you, I get a free month added to _my_ 
subscription! ;-)]

http://jtas.sjgames.com/subscribe/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:08:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:08:43 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <11c.14c7f23e.2a7b7e6b@aol.com>
References: <11c.14c7f23e.2a7b7e6b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3it2tkx3r.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
> 
> In reference to the original post that started all this, I don't
> know what else to say, 'cept I'm glad all these true warriors aren't
> in charge of making making major procurement and force deployment
> decisions.

I think a point which many have been trying to make is that those
decisions are made exactly according to such criteria.  Hence the
references to real-life battles and situations.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
If you're a politician, bureaucrat, or cop whose livelihood depends on
the drug war, you're fully as contemptible as any pusher, smuggler, or
cocaine baron--more so, because, unlike them, you profit directly by
destroying what was once the greatest freedom ever known to mankind.
                              --Mirelle Stein, The Productive Class

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] AC-130 losses [was something?]
Message-ID: <3D4ABE97.F32CD2F5@mail.cswnet.com>

I can't remember who wanted this or why, but here goes:

AC-130 losses, Vietnam
3 Aircraft, 52 aircrew
*also, IIRC from dad, 1 aircraft made it back to base but never
flew again.
Most losses from Triple A or SA-7.

AC-130 losses, Gulf War
1 Aircraft, 14 aircrew
Believed to be lost from a SA-16.

AC-130 Somalia operations [Kenya accident]
1 Aircraft, 8 aircrew
Accident; crashed off of Kenya coast.

For further details:
http://www.Spectre-association.org/

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <76.201d4ff6.2a7b1285@aol.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMENMIJAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>


 >>  >They might want more choices besides Dreadnaughts.
 >>
 >> Show me your choices.  I'd love to see 'em.
 >
 >Low-end ships so you can do all your jobs within your budget maybe?

I understand that, but there's the question of what your enemy is doing.
Consider the extreams -- if your goal is to win engagements then you'll want
a few expensive capital ships, but if you want to "do all the jobs" then
you'll want a herd of warm bodies (as it were).  Between the extreams is the
balance -- but where is it?  I think it's way over in the "win engagements"
side.  If you "cover all the bases" with warm bodies but have to flee every
time the heavyweight enemy shows up then what good is that?  There is no
substitute for victory, and to get that victory you need the heavyweights
and
you need more of them than your enemy.

 >Patrol ships and tankers and whatever you plan to escort the talkers with.

If by patrol you mean scouts, then yes.  But if you mean general policing
then I'd think that would be a local police matter and not a fleet matter.
If I'm an admiral at Jewell looking at 1000 Zhodie capital ship in Cronor,
and I hear about some pirates at Enope, I'd have to set priorities and ask
Wochiers to deal with it.  Since imminent war is not a constant threat, if
some patrols were desperately needed by local governments then I'd send some
screening vessels to deal with the problem and then return.

As for tankers (?), if I had any I'd just keep them with the fleet.

>The USN,
>for example, has other ships than carriers or attack subs (whichever you
>consider to be the capital ship). Most navies have some high-end combat
>ships and low-end workhorses.

That's because of real-world issues regarding weapon load capacities, size
vs
speed, air / surface / sub environment requirements, hull-shape
requirements,
and dozens of other factors, make such specialization necessary and
effective.  These issues don't transfer well to a Traveller universe.  In
Traveller everyone can go just as fast as the next guy, they all can carry
the same weapons, there's no limitation on size or hull configuration, and
so
on.  Would you put an Ageis system on a cargo ship?  You can do it in
Traveller, and it works.  Would you put ten inch armor on a destroyer?  You
can do it in Traveller, and it works.  Effective combat ships will all tend
towards the same hull/weapons/defenses configuration, and specialization
will
become mere limitation.

My Spinward Marches Colonial Fleet has supply vessels, hospital ships,
minesweepers, and other stuff in addition to its capital vessels.  But they
are all sideshows, and minor elements of the fleet -- maybe 5% of the total
tonnage.  I intend to win the major engagements first -- I'll clean up any
leftover messes after I win.

Mr. Flykiller

I've been following this debate over ships.

A config 7, dispersed structure, ship has the
highest to hit target of any configuration.
A high agility, high computer size A or less
meson escort is the hardest to hit of any ship.
Other weapons find it hard to hit with as well.
Additionally, is features the lowest hull cost.

A Wombat swarmers is an anti capital ship weapon.
They are realitively inexpensive, has low crew
sizes, and back up computers, bridges and low berths to
increase their staying power.

In game terms a Wombat has a size mod of -1, and agility
of 6 and a computer 9 giving it a to hit mod of
-14 + computer attacking ship (renderinging it unhittable
by anything other then a Meson M meson spinal mountor
better which a T hits on an  10, 11 or 12 , Q-s hit on
11 or 12 and the others only hit on a 12 assuming
a type 9 computer with an allotment of two extra PP levels
to soak up PP hits.  they have a back up level 9 computer
and 30 low berths -- allowing for 3 levels of crew hits.
In Trilion Credit Squadron senerios, they only soak
up one pilot and work on the factor 9 meson gun column.

1	10
2	9
3	7
4	4
5	3
6	6
7	12
8	2
9	11

before any modifactions. Most Capital ships are at least size B
so it is at worst a +1 in any exchange of fire

Interesingly, with the backups and lack of Armour, she has
weapon hits to fear the most -- she has no screens and jump
drives, so spinal weapons are at a disadvantage against it --
only 10 and 12 on pentrating hits are  mission kills on the
radiation table while 8 and 11 are MKs on the Surface explosion
table.  the +6 DM that sub 9 bay/batteries have acually hurt
her more.  PA that can hurt it, at best -- assuming a 9 computer --
need a 10 or better to hit while missiles need a seven
at best

The Wombat is a specialists and can be hurt, but the things that
can hurt it are at a disavantage trying to hit it and things
that can hit it do find it hard to Mission kill it.  Costing
DD price range, they threaten any capital ship scoring weapon
and computer hits through radiation hits and all but Critical and
shattered fuel hits on hits and penetrate and score interior hits.

Ship: Fred
Class: Wombat
Type: Meson Swarmer
Architect: jml
Tech Level: 15

USP
         Es-A706Z92-000000-00090-0 MCr 1,405.500 1 KTons
Bat Bear                      1    Crew: 19
Bat                           1    TL: 15

Cargo: 9.000 Fuel: 300.000 EP: 300.000 Agility: 6
Backups: 1 x Model/9 Computer 1 x Bridge
Substitutions: Z = 30

Architects Fee: MCr 14.055   Cost in Quantity: MCr 1,124.400


Detailed Description

HULL
1,000.000 tons standard, 14,000.000 cubic meters, Dispersed Structure
Configuration

CREW
Pilot, Navigator, 14 Engineers, Medic, 2 Gunners

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 6G Manuever, Power plant-30, 300.000 EP, Agility 6

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/9 Computer
1 Backup Bridge, 1 Model/9 Backup Computer

HARDPOINTS
1 100-ton bay

ARMAMENT
1 100-ton Meson Bay (Factor-9)

DEFENCES
None

CRAFT
None

FUEL
300.000 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
No Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
10.0 Staterooms, 30 Low Berths, 9.000 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 1,419.555 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 14.055), MCr 1,124.400 in
Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
120 Weeks Singly, 96 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <1666ad163c67.163c671666ad@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Date: Friday, August 2, 2002 3:51 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] warship optimization in traveller

> On 1 Aug 2002 at 16:42, Hurrel, Brian wrote:
> 
> > "No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy."
> > 
> > I'm paraphrasing, and can't remember who said this. Maybe 
> Clausewitz(SP?).
> Moltke, IIRC, but it's probably about as old as warfare itself.

FWIW, I recall reading a corollary to this quote:

"No unit ever survived contact with the enemy _without_ a battle plan."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:44:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:44:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CF7@USCHM203>

>The Germans, and
 >particularly the Japanese were horribly dehumanized.  We made our enemies
 >into monsters so then it was OK to exterminate them.

If there was any dehumanizing of the Germans and Japanese, they did it
themselves through their own brutality. 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith Mormon minion of Arioch)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CF7@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <007f01c23a4c$9e46f0d0$6f7ba8c0@kenneith93j41k>

Well actually we did it with our propaganda before we even found out they
were basterds, don't; get me wrong what they did was wrong, but at the time
we chose a path also to get our war machine in motion.
Ken

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comics
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you
http://www.geocities.com/J_Elric_Smith/Index.html
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 1:43 PM
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization


> >The Germans, and
>  >particularly the Japanese were horribly dehumanized.  We made our
enemies
>  >into monsters so then it was OK to exterminate them.
>
> If there was any dehumanizing of the Germans and Japanese, they did it
> themselves through their own brutality.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <004301c23a04$8cdeff60$0112bd50@martinjd>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
 <m3ofclg93m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
 <004301c23a04$8cdeff60$0112bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <m3eldhkv8o.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> writes:
> 
> There are simulator drawbacks--`simulator sickness--which is kind of
> psychosomatic motion sickness, can begin to manifest itself on real
> missions (or cause them to not do certain things because they expect
> sim sickness).

Again, a sufficiently advanced computer (I'm talking about Moore's law
for 2,000 years: capacity increasing by 1.5 every 1.5 years for 2,000
years is a 6.1425e234 increase; by 2 every 2 years is a 1.0715e301
increase) can model sufficiently well that one will experience bad
effects exactly as in real life...

> And they can develop a habit of recklessness since they can't die,
> which is bad if carried over, or sometimes evaporates in a mist of
> nerves because suddenly they CAN.

Granted--I'm not arguing that sims would replace training, but that
basic piloting skills might very well be widespread in the population
due to the prevalence of sims.  That is, much as manipulating a
first-person shooter is pretty much common to 95% of teenage males
today, the basics of piloting a fighter craft might be common to 95%
of teenage males in thefar future.  Thus fighter training might be
much quicker and risk-free than currently, and consequently fighter
pilots might be significantly cheaper.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
What did you do to the cat? It looks half-dead.
                         --Schroedinger's wife

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CF7@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208021045440.12501-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 2 Aug 2002, Hurrel, Brian wrote:

>  >The Germans, and
>  >particularly the Japanese were horribly dehumanized.  We made our enemies
>  >into monsters so then it was OK to exterminate them.
> 
> If there was any dehumanizing of the Germans and Japanese, they did it
> themselves through their own brutality. 

Um, all of them, even the children?

The problem with dehumanization is that it invites things like rape and
torture of noncombatants, and just because one side is doing that does not
mean it's a good idea, or OK, for the other side to do it.

Kiri

**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:53:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:53:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in traveller)
Message-ID: <F244ozCsVINDnKgXhLy00004901@hotmail.com>

Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:
>The US Army did studies in which they discovered that the
>longest that a solider can stay in a combat zone is about
>100 days.  After that, he falls apart.  So the Army began
>rotating units to rest areas so they could recharge a little
>and get roaring drunk and contract VD before going back
>into the line.  It will be harder for the Imperium to do this,
>but I think it would be a priority to establish some sort of
>safe zone for the troops.

It's an old saw that military service is extended periods of
boredom punctuated by short periods of stark terror.  Imagine
if an army used sleeper ships to move their troops around...
soldiers whose military service consisted of sleeping through
the extended periods of boredom, and only being awake for the
periods of stark terror.

That kind of setup might be cheap when it came to starship
life support costs, but I imagine the impact on the soldiers'
psyches would be extreme.

I remember a sci-fi tale of soldiers such as this, warriors
who would sleep for ages and only wake for war, while society
changed around them into unrecognizability...it wasn't
Gordon R. Dickson's _Soldier, Ask Not_, was it?

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (R. Michael Stephens)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in traveller)
References: <F244ozCsVINDnKgXhLy00004901@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D4AC860.5000504@vanderbilt.edu>

Similar effects in Jack Chalker's "Forever War", very fast STL, large 
time dialation effects, and IIRC hibernation.

Walt Smith wrote:
> Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:
> 
>> The US Army did studies in which they discovered that the
>> longest that a solider can stay in a combat zone is about
>> 100 days.  After that, he falls apart.  So the Army began
>> rotating units to rest areas so they could recharge a little
>> and get roaring drunk and contract VD before going back
>> into the line.  It will be harder for the Imperium to do this,
>> but I think it would be a priority to establish some sort of
>> safe zone for the troops.
> 
> 
> It's an old saw that military service is extended periods of
> boredom punctuated by short periods of stark terror.  Imagine
> if an army used sleeper ships to move their troops around...
> soldiers whose military service consisted of sleeping through
> the extended periods of boredom, and only being awake for the
> periods of stark terror.
> 
> That kind of setup might be cheap when it came to starship
> life support costs, but I imagine the impact on the soldiers'
> psyches would be extreme.
> 
> I remember a sci-fi tale of soldiers such as this, warriors
> who would sleep for ages and only wake for war, while society
> changed around them into unrecognizability...it wasn't
> Gordon R. Dickson's _Soldier, Ask Not_, was it?
> 
> Walt Smith
> Firelock on DALNet
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


-- 
--
R. Michael Stephens               Systems Software Specialist
Vanderbilt University         Information Technology Services
Systems Development & Implementation      VUwebmail Developer
Nashville TN.  USA  R.M.Stephens@Vanderbilt.Edu  615.343.8780


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 12:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 11:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208021045440.12501-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <B9701696.6773B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/2/02 10:49 AM, Azalais Malfoy at tiamat@tsoft.com wrote:

>> If there was any dehumanizing of the Germans and Japanese, they did it
>> themselves through their own brutality.
> 
> Um, all of them, even the children?
> 
> The problem with dehumanization is that it invites things like rape and
> torture of noncombatants, and just because one side is doing that does not
> mean it's a good idea, or OK, for the other side to do it.
> 

Just to bring this back to Traveller,  how do the Imperium portray it's
adversaries?  We can probably guess that the Solomani do a bit of
dehumanizing propaganda against their Imperial foe.  How does the Imperium
portray the Zhodani and Solomani to it's citizenry.  And is there an
Imperial Ministry for Propaganda?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 12:11:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fred Ramen)
Date: Fri Aug  2 11:11:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Blowing holes in Japan (was " Re Patton")
Message-ID: <009d01c23a4f$d11f1de0$f42bf7a5@pctframen>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> writes:

"An Allied invasion would have also included the USSR.  There could have
been a Tokyo wall to match the one in Berlin.  Today, Japan could be
struggling to assimilate and rebuild Hokkaido and the northern half of
Honshu, just as the Germans are still trying to deal with the eastern
portions of their recently reunited nation."

My dear Mr. Whipsnade,

Given that without a unified Japan many of the U.S.'s conflicts in Asia
(Korea, Vietnam, guaranteeing the independence of Taiwan) would likely have
been fantastically difficult or impossible, in your alternate scenario the
Tokyo (and perhaps Berlin!) walls might likely still be up! A divided Japan
would have made it almost impossible for the US to prosecute the war in
Korea without the conflict spreading into a general US/Soviet war, for
example.

Fred "Paging Dr. Turtledove" Ramen


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 12:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 11:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
 traveller)
In-Reply-To: <3D4AC860.5000504@vanderbilt.edu>
Message-ID: <B9701A4C.6777A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/2/02 10:58 AM, R. Michael Stephens at Robert.M.Stephens@vanderbilt.edu
wrote:

> Similar effects in Jack Chalker's "Forever War", very fast STL, large
> time dialation effects, and IIRC hibernation.

That's Joe Haldeman's "Forever War"

[snip]
>> 
>> I remember a sci-fi tale of soldiers such as this, warriors
>> who would sleep for ages and only wake for war, while society
>> changed around them into unrecognizability...it wasn't
>> Gordon R. Dickson's _Soldier, Ask Not_, was it?
>> 


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 12:25:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (R. Michael Stephens)
Date: Fri Aug  2 11:25:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in	traveller)
References: <B9701A4C.6777A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D4ACED6.3070507@vanderbilt.edu>

Right.  Thanks.  Aging memory is not a fun thing.

Mike

Tod Glenn wrote:
> on 8/2/02 10:58 AM, R. Michael Stephens at Robert.M.Stephens@vanderbilt.edu
> wrote:
> 
> 
>>Similar effects in Jack Chalker's "Forever War", very fast STL, large
>>time dialation effects, and IIRC hibernation.
> 
> 
> That's Joe Haldeman's "Forever War"
> 
> [snip]
> 
>>>I remember a sci-fi tale of soldiers such as this, warriors
>>>who would sleep for ages and only wake for war, while society
>>>changed around them into unrecognizability...it wasn't
>>>Gordon R. Dickson's _Soldier, Ask Not_, was it?
>>>
>>
> 
> 
> --
> When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.


-- 
--
R. Michael Stephens               Systems Software Specialist
Vanderbilt University         Information Technology Services
Systems Development & Implementation      VUwebmail Developer
Nashville TN.  USA  R.M.Stephens@Vanderbilt.Edu  615.343.8780


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 12:52:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 11:52:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Rowan's Beasts
Message-ID: <3D4AD3D0.CD2C003@mail.cswnet.com>

I've decided to play in the bestiary for a little bit, in part to work
on some pc stuff and to take a break from starships.

Rowan's Beasts, from Supplement 6, Page 13.

I've decided to model these after the Roan Antelope, especially since I
have absolutely no biological/zooalogical experience/training to help
me with a discriptive commentary.

Herbivore/Grazer (4d)
weight: 400kg
hits: 16/9
armor: none
weapons: hooves and horns
wounds: 12
A:4 F:1 S:3

Believed to originate from Terra, Rowans have been transported to a
number of other systems. Its horns are a highly prized hunting trophey,
and it is also used by a number of religous cults as a symbolic figure.
They usually have a brown-grey coat, with black and white head markings
and a black tail. The male horns typically are 40-50cm in length, and
are curved backwards. Females also sport horns, but these are not as
long. Rowan are typically encountered in clear grass land, prairie, and 
savanah type environments. Usually found in herds of 20 and 100
animals, with between 1 to 5 males per group. Typical gestation period
runs between 270-300 days, with one offspring usually resulting. They 
typically have a lifespan of 18 years.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CF9@USCHM203>

> Ken wrote:
[re Germans and Japanese]

>Well actually we did it with our propaganda before we even found out they
>were basterds, don't; get me wrong what they did was wrong, but at the time
>we chose a path also to get our war machine in motion.

You have a point. One of the reasons people were very slow to believe
reports of German atrocities during WWII was because they remembered all the
false propaganda reports of German atrocities during WWI.

Personally, I find it hard to shed many tears for Hiroshima, Nagasaki, or
Dresden. Cold? Maybe. Avoidable or unneccessary? Perhaps in hindsight, but
that's a luxury no one had at the time. 
Do I condone the mass bombing of civilians or celebrate the deaths of
children? No. But as far as I'm concerned the Germans and Japanese were
ultimately responsible for their own destruction.
The Allies also showed much greater restraint than would have been shown us
if the tables were turned. I have no doubt the Axis powers, had they won,
would have gone on a rampage of looting, rape, genocide, and destruction
that would boggle the mind, and luckily remains in the realm of
science-fiction.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CFA@USCHM203>

Kiri wrote:

>Um, all of them, even the children?

No. But children often cannot keep their parents from acting foolishly and
putting them in danger.

Anyway, for the most part, it was not an Allied policy to target
non-combatants. Civilians live near factories, and factories are going to be
bombed. Also, bombers had nowhere near the precision of today's smart
weapons. What took one cruise missile during the gulf war would have taken a
flight of B17s 45 years earlier.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:18:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:18:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller HIDING
Message-ID: <F96dOgl4rhYQYx3G5aY00000042@hotmail.com>

Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:
<snip Flykiller's comments>
>
>Uncalled for.

To be fair, I was in the process of descending down to his
level, and I had a few uncalled for comments myself.

I am *not* interested in undertaking a contest with Flykiller,
and he is welcome to think of it what he will.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Carolyn & Royce)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <3D4B28F8.948.FD2916@localhost>
Message-ID: <007101c23a5b$5a5d63e0$6f142c42@roycereiss>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 8:51 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] warship optimization in traveller


On 1 Aug 2002 at 16:42, Hurrel, Brian wrote:

> "No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy."
>
> I'm paraphrasing, and can't remember who said this. Maybe Clausewitz(SP?).

Moltke, IIRC, but it's probably about as old as warfare itself.

--
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

I prefer the follow from Moltke the Elder
"Plans are nothing,  planning is everything"

Roy


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net><m3ofclg93m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org><004301c23a04$8cdeff60$0112bd50@martinjd> <m3eldhkv8o.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <00aa01c23a5c$4f293ca0$5d0bbd50@martinjd>

> "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> writes:
> >
> > There are simulator drawbacks--`simulator sickness--which is kind of
> > psychosomatic motion sickness, can begin to manifest itself on real
> > missions (or cause them to not do certain things because they expect
> > sim sickness).
>
> Again, a sufficiently advanced computer (I'm talking about Moore's law
> for 2,000 years: capacity increasing by 1.5 every 1.5 years for 2,000
> years is a 6.1425e234 increase; by 2 every 2 years is a 1.0715e301
> increase) can model sufficiently well that one will experience bad
> effects exactly as in real life...

Okay, if you can manage to simulate g stress and all the other stuff too,
then my comment above doesn't apply. If not, it does. You need more than an
amazing computer for this. Which translates to "again, I don't believe in
perfect simulators".

>
> > And they can develop a habit of recklessness since they can't die,
> > which is bad if carried over, or sometimes evaporates in a mist of
> > nerves because suddenly they CAN.
>
> Granted--I'm not arguing that sims would replace training, but that
> basic piloting skills might very well be widespread in the population
> due to the prevalence of sims.  That is, much as manipulating a
> first-person shooter is pretty much common to 95% of teenage males
> today, the basics of piloting a fighter craft might be common to 95%
> of teenage males in thefar future.  Thus fighter training might be
> much quicker and risk-free than currently, and consequently fighter
> pilots might be significantly cheaper.

Or society will be full of people who think they can flyb fighters, who
think they understand fuighter tactics, and who think they don't have to
listen to the instructors. I get this all the time teaching self-defense to
young men who think they know how to punch. They don't listen and don't get
any better. This actually means that the "human wave" attack might be
plausible. It'sd all you can do with these people. The French Revolutionary
army had a similar problem when it tries to turn the victorious volunteers
into a real army with discipline and manuever capability.





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:29:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:29:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMENMIJAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <00ab01c23a5c$506fc660$5d0bbd50@martinjd>

> Ship: Fred
> Class: Wombat
> Type: Meson Swarmer
> Architect: jml
> Tech Level: 15

These are nice. I notice that they're not fighters.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:30:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:30:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <200208021543.g72Fhlw12656@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <00af01c23a5c$51d040c0$5d0bbd50@martinjd>

> >counter them. Or if they could carry enough fighters to scrub a decent
light
> >cruiser before it closed and killed the carrier. Or....
>
>   Sadly, HG2 doesn't allow those sorts of complications, but
> any of the hex-based Trav games make riders/carriers _much_
> less attractive for precisely that reason.
>

Agreed. This is why I believe that HG/TCS alone do not present a framework
for creating a believable starfaring navy.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:31:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:31:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
References: <3D4B49A4.30448.6221A7B@localhost>
Message-ID: <00b101c23a5c$5444ea40$5d0bbd50@martinjd>

> On 2 Aug 2002, at 10:14, Cheng Tseng wrote:
>
> > Were they?  I do not remember any FAA torpedo squadrons involved, and
the only
> > torpedo squadron the RAF's Coastal Command had in England (The rest were
in
> > the Med.) had Beauforts, if I remember correctly.
>
> #825 Sqd, Lt Cmdr Esmonde led six Swordfish against the Scharnhorst,
> Gneisenau and Prinz Eugen with their escorts and heavy fighter cover. All
> six were shot down and only by a miracle did 5 of the 18 crew survive. Lt
> Cmdr Esmonde received the FAA's first VC for the attack.

One of my obscurely related uncles was killed in the Channel Dash, attacking
the Scharnhorst in a torpedo boat. Never got anywhere near, but his widow
went to Buckingham Palace to collect the medal they awarded for making the
attempt.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:31:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:31:44 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <3D4B24F2.20758.ED70D3@localhost>
Message-ID: <00b201c23a5c$554ff1a0$5d0bbd50@martinjd>

>
> > IE Units will NOT enter routine combat situations where they know
> > they will be massacred.
>
> I think it depends a lot on the chances of success and the value the
> soldier (or pilots, or whatevers) place on that success.

Yes, hence my use of the word "routine". Critical situations (or good
manipulation by morale experts) will be different.

>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <200208021928.LXQ00226@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Douglas E. Berry" says
>Doesn't stop the flow of volunteers.

Me! Me! Pick me!
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:33:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:33:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Meduim Navies
Message-ID: <200208021932.LXR00217@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Roseberry says
<snip cool stuff on small navies>
I've wanted to do something on that scale for a PBEM, with 
the players doing their TCS thing with some politics and with 
the GM resolving battles and doing a CNN-like news.

________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in traveller)
Message-ID: <200208021936.LXR00684@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"R. Michael Stephens" says
>Similar effects in Jack Chalker's "Forever War", very fast 
>STL, large time dialation effects, and IIRC hibernation.

Ahem.. Joe Haldeman...
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <200208021939.LXR00993@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"MJ Dougherty" says
>These are nice. I notice that they're not fighters.
>

I'll repeat myself.  Using the small fleet concept that 
Roseberry posted earlier, I would be interested in running a 
TL 12 PBEM.

Then we could find out through politics what other players 
(representing their governments) think of things like 
planetary bombardment, prisoner exchange, trade embargos, 
blockades, etc.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
References: <20020802062003.11635.24330.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <eimkkukp9lm8iv0tjm0iu5gvjaoi5j6oov@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <3D4ADFBF.8030303@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Jeff Zeitlin wrote:

> 
> I refuse to believe that they _want_ a city that is so badly mismanaged
> that Congress was ready to take away what autonomy they had.

Well, a large part of the problems in DC has been the fact that they 
have generally had 565 masters to please...

565 rather stingy masters, at that, who didn't live or work in the city 
that the DC authorites had to police...only their nannies, garbage men 
and maids lived *there*.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:52:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:52:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <8d.1bfa1383.2a7a4253@aol.com> <3.0.5.16.20020802094239.36dff48c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3D4AE2D3.9080101@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> Hell, as a sniper I was considered to be a highly-skilled soldier (not
> cannon-fodder) and was expected to do insane things that were extremely
> dangerous and most often fatal.  Snipers are rarely taken prisoner.  Enemy
> troops tend to kill them when they are caught.  Doesn't stop the flow of
> volunteers.

Except, of course, you knew, deep down, *you* were good enough to 
survive, and get away without being caught. It was the other guy, the 
one who made mistakes, and had bad luck, who got captured and killed, 
not you. You were *good* dammit, you were a Ranger! Hooah!

I think this is the crucial element we're overlooking in this debate.

At one point during WWII the survival rates of US aviator pilits was not 
*much* better than kamakazi's. The crucial element is that they believed 
that their survival was ultimately influenced by their actions and 
abilities and their omnipresent good luck.

This goes for all of the 'suicide' missions like U-boat crews, our own 
submarine crews, and aviators. It's not a coincidence that submariners 
are usually considered the most fanatically superstious of all armed 
forces personnel.

When it becomes clear that no matter *what* you do, you're going to die, 
attitudes change.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in traveller)
References: <200208021936.LXR00684@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D4AE3B5.9050704@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

The original story about the soldiers being woken up for combat sounds 
quite a bit like the movie 'Universal Soldier', which, iirc, was based 
on a P.K. Dick short story or novella.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:57:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:57:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <00ab01c23a5c$506fc660$5d0bbd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHKEOJIJAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

> Ship: Fred
> Class: Wombat
> Type: Meson Swarmer
> Architect: jml
> Tech Level: 15

These are nice. I notice that they're not fighters.

_______________________________________________

Nope, High end SDB's or low end monitors IMO
They were a possible take on that survival thingy.

jml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in traveller)
Message-ID: <F91b7ENl92BgHK61Aca000250e0@hotmail.com>

R. Michael Stephens <Robert.M.Stephens@vanderbilt.edu> wrote:
>Similar effects in Jack Chalker's "Forever War", very fast STL, large
>time dialation effects, and IIRC hibernation.

Similar, but I think Haldeman's _Forever War_ was more about
isolation from society than concentrated warfare experience.
A soldier in Haldeman's book might spend a year (subjective)
sitting in boredom, then a week fighting for his or her life.
The society he or she is fighting for might have had two hundred
years pass while the troopship was flying for a subjective year,
but at least the soldier had some down time.

With "freezer pop" soldiers, you might have people who wake
up, fight to the death for a week, then go back to sleep
until the next fight to the death crops up. No down time,
no ability to process what happened before it all starts
again.  Imagine the post-war condition of the average US
WW2 soldier if his entire tour of duty had lasted only
(a subjective) three months, but each and every (subjective)
day had as much violence as the Normandy landings?

The extreme version (from the sf story that might be _Soldier,
Ask Not_) would give these troopers social isolation problems
as well (they get woken up for a week or so every couple of
centuries), but even the lesser version you'd see in a Traveller
setting could be hard on human minds.

Forever War was a helluva book, btw.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Blowing holes in Japan (was " Re Patton")
References: <009d01c23a4f$d11f1de0$f42bf7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <3D4AE539.2070603@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Fred Ramen wrote:

 > A divided Japan
> would have made it almost impossible for the US to prosecute the war in
> Korea without the conflict spreading into a general US/Soviet war, for
> example.

Well, I don't think this is all that likely. Uncle Joe did NOT want a 
generalized US/Soviet war at the time of the Korean conflict, whetehr or 
not they held part of Japan, or else it would have happened.

As it was, Stalin refused Mao's and Jong's requests for materiel and 
men, including nuclear weapons, and the few Russians involved in the 
conflict were extremely circumspect, and confined mainly to some higher 
level advisers to the Chinese advisers and command, and as pilots, 
initially for the Mig-15 and Yak-17 (iirc) jet fighters, and then only 
until China had sufficient trained personell to fly 'em.

(and, not coincidentally, the Russians had a good understanding of their 
performance against American jet aircraft, as well...)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:05:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:05:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonabo Class Missile Frigate
Message-ID: <19e.64fcc68.2a7c3fb5@aol.com>

 >Ship: Bonabo
 >Class: Bonabo
 >Type: Missile Frigate
 >Architect: Alan Bradley
 >Tech Level: 15
 >
 >USP
 >         FM-A156892-000000-00009-0 MCr 1,196.140 1.5 KTons
 >Bat Bear                       1   Crew: 24
 >Bat                            1   TL: 15
 >
 >Cargo: 2.000 Fuel: 870.000 EP: 120.000 Agility: 6 Shipboard Security Detail:
 >2
 >Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

No armor?  No low berths?  No medical facilities?  No lifeboat?  No cargo 
supplies?  Well, at least it seems to have extra crewmen -- if you can get 
anyone to sign up.  If I were the referee I'd give this boat an endurance of 
1 - 2 months max.

 >In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships.

Yes, in sufficient numbers, and if the capital ships are poorly designed and 
employed.  But credit for credit you'll never get the numbers sufficient to 
do so.  Meanwhile with no armor these ships will be dropping like flies.  I 
think what you have here is not a line-of-battle ship, but a raider that 
needs work.  Give it some more endurance and it would do fine in that roll.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:14:02 2002
Subject: JTAS Contest (was: Re: [TML] warship optimization in traveller)
References: <20020802182504.13132.61928.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D4AE7C4.85DCBD6E@ameritech.net>

> Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 20:07:38 +0300
> From: john.groth@us.army.mil

<snip>

> Just out of curiosity, which one did you vote for? 

The 300-ton Maraaki-class Medical Ship. I liked the mission description
for this ship. Plus it's a nice PC sized ship.

> I was caught up in
> the actual deployment from Ft. Carson to Sinai, so I didn't submit a
> vote, but I probably would have voted for _Sanctuary_, the 300,000 
> dton converted Fleet Support Tanker [*].

I considered this but decided it was too big a ship for most situations. 

<snip>

> [*] Actually, I liked my own design best, but I've always viewed 
> voting for your own ship in such a contest as gauche.

Well same here. Though in this instatnce I really didn't think my ship
was the best in the running. Maybe I need to send my ego in for
refurbishing. :)

> 
> [**] For those who would like to participate, just go to the
> Starship/Vehicle Design discussion board on JTAS.  Not a subscriber?
> Why not?  It's only $15 US per two years for biweekly issues and access
> to archives, discussion boards and Brubek's chat room.  [And if you
> mention that aurictech referred you, I get a free month added to _my_
> subscription! ;-)]

Ignore this blatant self promotion and tell them davidshayne sent you.

:)
 
> http://jtas.sjgames.com/subscribe/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
 traveller)
In-Reply-To: <3D4AC860.5000504@vanderbilt.edu>
References: <F244ozCsVINDnKgXhLy00004901@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020802151624.00a90e00@minn.net>

"R. Michael Stephens" <Robert.M.Stephens@vanderbilt.edu> wrote:
>Similar effects in Jack Chalker's "Forever War", very fast STL, large 
>time dialation effects, and IIRC hibernation.

>> I remember a sci-fi tale of soldiers such as this, warriors
>> who would sleep for ages and only wake for war, while society
>> changed around them into unrecognizability...it wasn't
>> Gordon R. Dickson's _Soldier, Ask Not_, was it?
>> 
>> Walt Smith
>> Firelock on DALNet

The Forever War by Joe Haldeman. He was a grunt in Vietnam.

Read it in high school.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <20020802101235.98a3bb14da2249719a2c69a0b3078a17.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <3D4B91FA.12531.2C8155@localhost>

On 2 Aug 2002 at 10:14, Cheng Tseng wrote:

> Were they?  I do not remember any FAA torpedo squadrons involved, and the
> only torpedo squadron the RAF's Coastal Command had in England (The rest
> were in the Med.) had Beauforts, if I remember correctly.

I'm fairly sure they were (ie my source is miles away and I can't 
check). They were mentioned in a history of the Beauforts' WWII 
experiences as being there.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:20:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:20:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <20020802102615.30aca70d97e74ef18326726c229541ca.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <3D4B91FA.13395.2C819C@localhost>

On 2 Aug 2002 at 10:28, Cheng Tseng wrote:

> Well, it would have greatly improved the British chances of attacking the
> German ships if it did not take until just before the Germans were passing
> the Straits of Dover to even know they were at sea.  At least then, the
> Brits could have had time to assemble an all-out attack instead of send the
> aircrafts in dribbles and drabs which allowed the Luftwaffe to kill them.
> One of Adolf Galland's finer moments, providing air cover for the cruisers.

Yep. It also helped that somewhere in the British communications chain 
they transformed from 30,000 ton battlecruisers at 30 knots to 20,000 
ton merchants at 20 knots, so the British pilots were all firing their 
torpedos with their sights set incorrectly.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:21:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:21:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMENMIJAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
References: <76.201d4ff6.2a7b1285@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B91FA.31831.2C81F6@localhost>

On 2 Aug 2002 at 9:23, John-Martin wrote:

> A config 7, dispersed structure, ship has the
> highest to hit target of any configuration.
> A high agility, high computer size A or less
> meson escort is the hardest to hit of any ship.
> Other weapons find it hard to hit with as well.
> Additionally, is features the lowest hull cost.
> 
> A Wombat swarmers is an anti capital ship weapon.
> They are realitively inexpensive, has low crew
> sizes, and back up computers, bridges and low berths to
> increase their staying power.
> 
> In game terms a Wombat has a size mod of -1, and agility
> of 6 and a computer 9 giving it a to hit mod of
> -14 + computer attacking ship (renderinging it unhittable
> by anything other then a Meson M meson spinal mountor
> better which a T hits on an  10, 11 or 12 , Q-s hit on
> 11 or 12 and the others only hit on a 12 assuming
> a type 9 computer with an allotment of two extra PP levels
> to soak up PP hits.  they have a back up level 9 computer
> and 30 low berths -- allowing for 3 levels of crew hits.
> In Trilion Credit Squadron senerios, they only soak
> up one pilot and work on the factor 9 meson gun column.
> 
> 1	10
> 2	9
> 3	7
> 4	4
> 5	3
> 6	6
> 7	12
> 8	2
> 9	11
> 
> before any modifactions. Most Capital ships are at least size B
> so it is at worst a +1 in any exchange of fire
> 
> Interesingly, with the backups and lack of Armour, she has
> weapon hits to fear the most -- she has no screens and jump
> drives, so spinal weapons are at a disadvantage against it --
> only 10 and 12 on pentrating hits are  mission kills on the
> radiation table while 8 and 11 are MKs on the Surface explosion
> table.  the +6 DM that sub 9 bay/batteries have acually hurt
> her more.  PA that can hurt it, at best -- assuming a 9 computer --
> need a 10 or better to hit while missiles need a seven
> at best

I'm not sure I follow this bit, and I think some of your numbers are a 
little off, too. How's it stack up to cruisers with (relatively) light 
spinal PAWS?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:23:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:23:12 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <177.c580aa7.2a7c4378@aol.com>

 >>> I bet that fighting hole full of cold rainwater I stepped
 >>> into near LZ Aardvark was put there by Doug.  Thanks, Doug.
 >
 >Only the best for my friends!  And he, I walked into my fair share of those.

My reserve unit was practicing out at an old guard facility.  I was running 
hard across a field with waist-high brush towards a large bush.  I made it to 
the bush and hurtled straight into an old fighting hole.  I slammed into the 
far side, bounced back against the near side, and wound up in a twisted 
tangle six feet down.  I never even saw the hole until I was at the bottom.

When I finally recovered and climbed out, everyone else had gone back to camp 
for dinner.  That was kind of disappointing.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Baboon Class Missile Frigate CREWS
Message-ID: <1ba.43235ef.2a7c49b7@aol.com>

 >>The Baboon Class Missile Frigate is a lightly equipped patrol/escort 
vehicle.
 >>
 >>In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships.
 >
 >  <QUIBBLE> Not really? By TL E or F dampers make these ships just
 >too inefficient, IIRC?

They are too inefficient to kill, yes.  But they can still be a royal pain in 
the ass.  In the end though capital ships can kill them but they can't kill 
capital ships.  Eventually they run out of missiles.

I think the big problem with this kind of boat is not their inefficiency, but 
their crews.  It would be hard enough to get competent and willing captains, 
pilots, and engineers with the necessary decades of experience for a few 
heavily armed and armored capital ships that have adequate living space and 
support cargo.  Finding thousands of deployable captains, pilots, and 
engineers who would be willing to live and fight in barely-adequate 
Volkswagens (as it were) would be a major problem.  I think this difficulty 
should be reflected in their skill levels.  I know TCS specifically and 
categorically states otherwise, but I think this issue is just too big and 
reasonable to so breezily ignore it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fred Ramen)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Blowing holes in Japan (was " Re Patton")
Message-ID: <00d901c23a66$05486160$4a2bf7a5@pctframen>

I wrote:

 > A divided Japan
> would have made it almost impossible for the US to prosecute the war in
> Korea without the conflict spreading into a general US/Soviet war, for
> example.

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

"Well, I don't think this is all that likely. Uncle Joe did NOT want a
generalized US/Soviet war at the time of the Korean conflict, whetehr or
not they held part of Japan, or else it would have happened. <snip>"

Oh, I agree that the Stalin didn't want to expand the conflict any more than
Truman did. My point was merely that it would have been extremely unlikely
for the Soviets to allow a divided Japan (as posited in Mr. Whipsnade's
original post) to be used as a staging area for American intervention in
Korea (or Vietnam, for that matter).

Of course, I may be overstating the importance of Japan to US Pacific
security, and am quite open to being corrected in this regard.

Fred Ramen


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 15:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 14:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <112.1523c9f7.2a7c50e1@aol.com>

 >In the active service I've know many fine female sailors who were competent
 >technicians and fine seaman. And more than a few who were more competent
 >leaders than many of the critics who bemoaned the posting of woman to ships.

I've seen a handful.  Offsetting this, I've seen companies where every single 
corporal  and several sergeants get busted down for sex with the female 
privates.  I've seen active duty females refuse orders to perform physical 
tasks (like dumping trash cans) and tell sergeants to their face to "get a 
male to do it".  I've seen females who cannot, and I mean cannot, pass their 
limited physical fitness tests, who can't do  even seven pushups, but who 
still remain in units.  I've seen females who cannot climb the ladder from 
the shaft alley to the second deck and who have to be helped.  I've seen 
females finish their expensive training and then promptly be discharged 
because they're pregnant.

Whatever benefits they bring I think are outweighed by the negatives.  I'd 
dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their 
traditional roles of nurse and clerk.  If the US military is so hard-up for 
warm bodies that it really needs females, then I say reinstitute the WACS and 
WAVES and whatever else, with their own standards and their own chain of 
command, and put them in charge of stateside facilities like hospitals and 
supply depots and personnel offices so men are freed up for more forward 
duties.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 15:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Fri Aug  2 14:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <112.1523c9f7.2a7c50e1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208021425040.5733-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 2 Aug 2002 Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> Whatever benefits they bring I think are outweighed by the negatives.  I'd 
> dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their 
> traditional roles of nurse and clerk.  If the US military is so hard-up for 
> warm bodies that it really needs females, then I say reinstitute the WACS and 
> WAVES and whatever else, with their own standards and their own chain of 
> command, and put them in charge of stateside facilities like hospitals and 
> supply depots and personnel offices so men are freed up for more forward 
> duties.

I've been trying to decide whether or not to killfile you for a while--
thanks for helping me out.
**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 15:26:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Fri Aug  2 14:26:43 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <3D4B05EA.8754.5198B91@localhost>
Message-ID: <000001c23a6b$4f795aa0$6501a8c0@Darla>

> However in a fighter you probably are
> all alone, the nearest friendly is tens of kilometers away and there's
> nobody to see if you stand as a "hero" or run as a "coward".
> 
> Personally I don't think the massed fighter approach works over the
long
> term due to the cost in highly trained crew. However, I can well see
it
> being
> not that uncommon, especially when one side feels desperate.
> 

I can't agree that the isolation of the cockpit would do that.  I've
worked with a lot of RL fighter pilots, both Air Force and Navy, and for
the most part they would rather die than look bad, ESPECIALLY in front
of the rest of the squadron.

TWB


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 15:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Fri Aug  2 14:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CF9@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <000001c23a6d$ab25c260$6501a8c0@Darla>

> if the tables were turned. I have no doubt the Axis powers, had they
won,
> would have gone on a rampage of looting, rape, genocide, and
destruction
> that would boggle the mind, and luckily remains in the realm of
> science-fiction.

In fact, the Axis powers DID go on a rampage of looting, rape, genocide
and destruction.  That is why they had to be stopped.

TWB


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 15:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug  2 14:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CF9@USCHM203>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CF9@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <m3fzxxj5gp.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> writes:
> 
> Personally, I find it hard to shed many tears for Hiroshima,
> Nagasaki, or Dresden.

I dunno--the firebombing of Dresden is IMHO one of the worst war
crimes committed by the US.  Esp. the bit about destroying emergency
vehicles...

That no-one was ever strung up for it is a travesty.  We're supposed
to be better than that.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The betterment of fools, Goethe tells us, is the appropriate business of
other fools.  The Underground Grammarian does not seek to educate
anyone.  We intend rather to ridicule, humiliate, and infuriate those
who abuse our language not so that they will do better but so that they
will stop using language entirely or at least go away.
                         --The Underground Grammarian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 15:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dave Strebe)
Date: Fri Aug  2 14:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208021425040.5733-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <02Aug2.151432pdt.119054@gw.city.vancouver.bc.ca>

> On Fri, 2 Aug 2002 Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

<SNIP>

> I've been trying to decide whether or not to killfile you for a while--
> thanks for helping me out.

 Moi aussi.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 15:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug  2 14:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <00aa01c23a5c$4f293ca0$5d0bbd50@martinjd>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
 <m3ofclg93m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
 <004301c23a04$8cdeff60$0112bd50@martinjd>
 <m3eldhkv8o.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
 <00aa01c23a5c$4f293ca0$5d0bbd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <m3bs8lj5c2.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> writes:
>
> > > There are simulator drawbacks--`simulator sickness--which is
> > > kind of psychosomatic motion sickness, can begin to manifest
> > > itself on real missions (or cause them to not do certain things
> > > because they expect sim sickness).
> >
> > Again, a sufficiently advanced computer (I'm talking about Moore's
> > law for 2,000 years: capacity increasing by 1.5 every 1.5 years
> > for 2,000 years is a 6.1425e234 increase; by 2 every 2 years is a
> > 1.0715e301 increase) can model sufficiently well that one will
> > experience bad effects exactly as in real life...
> 
> Okay, if you can manage to simulate g stress and all the other stuff
> too, then my comment above doesn't apply.  If not, it does. You need
> more than an amazing computer for this.  Which translates to again,
> I don't believe in perfect simulators.'

Well, if you can damp inertia and can create artificial gravity, I'm
pretty certain that you can fake high-g effects (or rather, create
them).  I don't think that the physics would necessarily be all that
difficult; trivial, probably, for a society which has those things.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
When the water of a place is bad it is safest to drink none that has not
been filtered through either the berry of a grape, or else a tub of malt.
These are the most reliable filters yet invented.        --Samuel Butler

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <m3ofclg93m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <000001c23a70$28580340$6501a8c0@Darla>

> 
> You really think that a computer can be powerful enough to simulate
> all that and yet not have safeguards to prevent death?  I would
> imagine that it'd be just like a modern simulator: screw up and you
> get the `shatter screen.'
> 
> Although it could also be used to give you a nasty shock or something
> every time you screw up...
> 

Not necessarily.  I was working on an F-15 trainer a few years ago and
stepped out of the seat to reach a terminal while leaving the aircraft
"in flight".  It took a bit longer that I thought it would, and the
uncontrolled simulated jet ended up impacting the "earth" at Mach
1.something.  

The control loader on the stick modeled stick forces due to the
accelerations of the aircraft, so in response to the massive g-loading
of the crash, drove the stick violently aft.  It is my good fortune that
I was not in the way of the stick when it drove aft, since it hit the
stops hard enough to snap a stainless steel cable in the control loader.


Needless to say, we added some safety limits in this area before the
trainer got delivered.

Tom Barnes


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <3D4B91FA.31831.2C81F6@localhost>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHGEPBIJAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

I'm not sure I follow this bit, and I think some of your numbers are a 
little off, too. How's it stack up to cruisers with (relatively) light 
spinal PAWS?

-- 
>>>>>>>>>>>>
One would need numbers but add 7 (agility 6 + 1 [size modifier for 
size A]) plus the difference in computer rating and the PAW to hit 
number to arrive at the number you have to roll higher then to hit.  

At best you hit one Wombat a bit worse then half the time, at worst you 
need a ten or better.  

Anyway, once you hit, you only get the first twelve hit types to play
with being a spinal mount. The Wombat carries 3 crew replacements, has
an extra computer and bridge.  It lacks a jump drive and screens 
and keeps its agility for 2 PP factor losses.  Fuel tank shattered and
weapons hits are your only mission kills.  Power Plant hit beyond 2
still leave the Wombat functional, it looses agility.  It takes 8 PP hits
to render the Meson gun un-operational

Fire the other way depends on the other ship,  Knock off nine for the 
computer.    Target numbers and damage table modifier depend on the target.

Please recall, this is not an uber weapon, it is a niche ship.  However it
is a surprisingly survivable one considering it costs about as much as the
main gun of a capital ship and displaces 1000 tons.  As SDB's these would
be extremely effective and carried as a rider, I see this as a very useful
mason artillery support platform or em mass to bulldog battlewagons.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
Message-ID: <151.11d787f6.2a7c5dcb@aol.com>

 > >Also, does a crippled fighter neccessarily mean dead crewman?
 >
 > using ct tables, a factor 9 salvo against a 90 ton fighter results in 9
 > critical hits, of which a roll of 2 or 10 ( 1/36 + 3/36 ) represent 
immediate
 > crew death (we'll ignore the presence or absence of rescue vessels, the
 > consequences to a pilot of loss of power in his ship, etc).  this results 
in
 > a ( 1 - ( 32 / 36 ) ^ 9 ) or a 65.4% chance of crew death upon being hit.  
I
 > don't know what typical fighter-pilot survival rates are, but I'll bet 
that's
 > comparable to those of japanese zero's in ww2.

 >The pilot casualty rates you quote above are much too high, IMHO.  They are 
only
 >true if the attacker is using TL15 100-ton meson gun bays or if the fighter 
is
 >unarmored.

In CT HG TL15 100-ton meson guns cannot hit fighters except at short range, 
and then only on 12+.  I wasn't considering meson guns, they're worthless 
against fighters.

A 90-ton CT HG TL15 fighter will have militarily-insignifcant armor.  90 
tons, -18 tons bridge, -15.3 tons maneuver 6, -1 PMS turret, -13 model 9 
computer, -18.4 power plant, -18.4 power plant fuel, -2 crew cabin, -1 
missile magazine, leaves 2.9.  Assuming no low berths, cargo, air lock, or 
other housekeeping / survival aids for the crew then 2.9 tons will support 
armor 2, which will remove the effects of one automatic critical hit.  Final 
crew death rate from automatic critical hits will be ( 1 - ( 32/36 ) ^ 8 ) 
for a total of 61.0%.  This does not count the normal damage from the hit, 
3/36 of which will be interior explosions or critical hits.  You can do the 
math for those.

IMTU computers are a normal part of bridge equipment, and do not consume 
space or energy, so my fighters _do_ have armor 15.  But no-one else seems to 
do this.

 >Fighters IMTU carry maximum armor.  This would reduce the non-meson crits 
 >listed above from 9 to 2, with a corresponding increase in crew survival.

Yes, it does -- but then you're not using CT HG, which is what I was talking 
about.  Or, if you are, then the fighters will either have ineffective 
computers or be severely slow, either of which will leave them vulnerable to 
rapid incapacitation.

 >I agree that a sub-100dT fighter cannot carry a weapon which can hurt a TL15
 >capital ship, mostly because of the difference in computer size.  This is 
why the
 >"fighters" in the smoke test were actually 1000dT boats with factor-9 
missile
 >bays.

Your fighters were 1000 tons?!!

I think we need standardization of terms.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
Message-ID: <a4.29dd5f76.2a7c5f34@aol.com>

 >>> including not commenting on how a
 >>> Washington police officer can be hired with felony convictions on his/her
 >>> record, provided that none were more recent than ten years ago at the 
time
 >>> of application.
 >> 
 >> Well, to be fair, if they didn't follow this hiring policy then could they
 >> find anyone to hire?
 >
 >But they couldn't carry a gun.  They'd be a prohibited person under Federal
 >law, unless they had filed for and received a 'relief from disability' from
 >the ATF.  And congress has stopped funding this program, so none are being
 >done.

That's a problem only if you intend to enforce the law.  Since it's not a 
problem for them then the conclusion to be drawn is obvious.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <d1.1c449e1a.2a7c6094@aol.com>

 >  As an aside, why are you not discussing the frigates that you 
 >had posited as the sole class of warship in the post to which I
 >was responding?

Because the question dealt specifically with capital ship viability.  It was 
late, I just latched onto fighters and did the math.  You can do the same 
math for the frigates if you like.  Capital ships will do better against the 
frigates, but they'll still lose fairly badly.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] max hull size
Message-ID: <ff.1ba47012.2a7c6111@aol.com>

 >Again, I'm assuming CT.  Let's see .... at tech 12, max hull size is 
199,999 
 
   <1 MT (USP X) per HG2, pps. 26 & 28.

Sorry -- CT HG.  I don't know what HG2 does.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <20020802224421.60004.qmail@web20414.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>

>"John T. Kwon" wrote:
>
>>I think I see a pattern here...
>>
>>long time Traveller player...
>>joins the military (some of us wished we did)...

[deletion]

>After "mustering out", I spent alot of time doing the usual PC
thing,
>hanging around in pubs looking for something exciting to do.
>
>SPOILER ALERT
[deletion]
>Unfortunately, though I met many fascinating (and in some cases 
>possibly alien) characters, I was never asked to rescue a senator
>from an Imperial prison hulk, reunite a Chirper with his siblings, 

Well, I never joined the military, but I did work for the Post Office
one summer, and I have on many occasions in my career as a lawyer
travelled with a team of variously normal, neurotic, and psychotic
professionals to exotic, distant cities (like Denver and Minneapolis)
to review documents in conference rooms, or to interrogate witnesses
in conference rooms.  It's been an exciting life.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net><m3ofclg93m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org><004301c23a04$8cdeff60$0112bd50@martinjd><m3eldhkv8o.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org><00aa01c23a5c$4f293ca0$5d0bbd50@martinjd> <m3bs8lj5c2.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <012601c23a78$2c1d4f00$5d0bbd50@martinjd>

>
> Well, if you can damp inertia and can create artificial gravity, I'm
> pretty certain that you can fake high-g effects (or rather, create
> them).  I don't think that the physics would necessarily be all that
> difficult; trivial, probably, for a society which has those things.
>

If you can do these things, then simulator problems I've outlined are
greatly diminished (most of them). I don't imagine this sort of thing is
available for $35 in a playstation game, though.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208021425040.5733-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <013101c23a78$5f05d720$5d0bbd50@martinjd>

>
> > Whatever benefits they bring I think are outweighed by the negatives.
I'd
> > dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their
> > traditional roles of nurse and clerk.  If the US military is so hard-up
for
> > warm bodies that it really needs females, then I say reinstitute the
WACS and
> > WAVES and whatever else, with their own standards and their own chain of
> > command, and put them in charge of stateside facilities like hospitals
and
> > supply depots and personnel offices so men are freed up for more forward
> > duties.


Such sweeping prejudice. I am impressed.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <112.1523c9f7.2a7c50e1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <014a01c23a78$a159d220$5d0bbd50@martinjd>

>
> I've seen a handful.  Offsetting this, I've seen companies where every
single
> corporal  and several sergeants get busted down for sex with the female
> privates.  I've seen active duty females refuse orders to perform physical
> tasks (like dumping trash cans) and tell sergeants to their face to "get a
> male to do it".  I've seen females who cannot, and I mean cannot, pass
their
> limited physical fitness tests, who can't do  even seven pushups, but who
> still remain in units.  I've seen females who cannot climb the ladder from
> the shaft alley to the second deck and who have to be helped.  I've seen
> females finish their expensive training and then promptly be discharged
> because they're pregnant.

Yeah, and I've seen human beings who were skilled and competent and
determined and motivated and just plain better than me being kept down
because they were born female. You can't damn half the human race on a
generality.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in travell
Message-ID: <memo.561258@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <F244ozCsVINDnKgXhLy00004901@hotmail.com>
> >The US Army did studies in which they discovered that the
> >longest that a solider can stay in a combat zone is about
> >100 days.  After that, he falls apart.  So the Army began
> >rotating units to rest areas so they could recharge a little
> >and get roaring drunk and contract VD before going back
> >into the line.  It will be harder for the Imperium to do this,
> >but I think it would be a priority to establish some sort of
> >safe zone for the troops.
> 
> It's an old saw that military service is extended periods of
> boredom punctuated by short periods of stark terror.  Imagine
> if an army used sleeper ships to move their troops around...
> soldiers whose military service consisted of sleeping through
> the extended periods of boredom, and only being awake for the
> periods of stark terror.
> 
> That kind of setup might be cheap when it came to starship
> life support costs, but I imagine the impact on the soldiers'
> psyches would be extreme.
 
Many, many years ago I played in a Traveller game where a vicious little 
war had broken out in the sector we happened to be in. While the rest of 
the party thought about mercenary tickets or intelligence gathering, I 
went off and found an unused planet somewhere about half way between the 
warring factions and set up a really big R&R centre, the only rule was no 
weapons and the war got left outside. Place was generally swarming with 
troops from both sides, and I made a pile :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:55:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:55:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <memo.561259@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <02Aug2.151432pdt.119054@gw.city.vancouver.bc.ca>
> > On Fri, 2 Aug 2002 Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> 
> <SNIP>
> 
> > I've been trying to decide whether or not to killfile you for a 
> > while--
> > thanks for helping me out.
> 
>  Moi aussi.

I am laughing too hard to issue the requisite command.

Mexal.
former infantry sergeant of the female persuasion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <20020802225803.30867.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Flykiller@aol.com

>>The Germans, and particularly the Japanese were horribly
>>dehumanized.  We made our enemies into monsters so then it was OK 
>>to exterminate them.
>
>Seems to be part of the human condition.  Not only is the enemy an 
>inhuman monster and responsible for any and all evil, _we_ are pure
>as the wind-driven snow in any and all circumstances.  "It's Al
>Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"

This is indeed an old tradition.  The German propagandists in WW2
created the Untermensch to describe various Slavic and Jewish
enemies, and used horrific cartoons to depict them ("Das ist der
Untermensch:  Gott hilf uns von solche wie diesen!" I recall one
saying).  

Indeed, the Battle of Maldon, an English poem from about 900AD,
concerns a fight between Angles (maybe Saxons; I forget) and Vikings.
 The Angles are named and give brave and gallant speeches as they
die.  The Vikings are always called "the wolvish Viking" ("tha
wulflic wicinga"), and they always insult the Angles whom they are
killing.  ("Feelthy English whose mother was a hamster ..." sorry,
wrong piece of English literature.)

--Glenn


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 17:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 16:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Civility APOLOGY
Message-ID: <36.2b6babed.2a7c6bba@aol.com>

 >>     "Yes, basking in verbally-asserted superiority is indeed much more 
 >pleasant than risking actual defeat.  But of course indulging in this makes 
 >you a (description deleted by LEW)"
 > 
 > 
 >Sir,
 >
 >     This post was completely uncalled for, in very poor taste, and little 
 >more than flame bait.  Posting such a message was definitely beneath you.  
I 
 >cannot believe you would normally behave in such a manner.  Passions may be 
 >running high on both sides of this discussion, but that doesn't mean we 
need 
 >to lower ourselves and make personal attacks.
 >     All of us on the List have been guilty of such behavior in the past, 
 >myself especially, but we all also try to conduct ourselves in as civil a 
 >manner as possible.  Because we're human, sometimes we fail.  However, we 
 >all still try.
 >    Your opinions and views have kicked off quite an interesting thread 
 >here on the List.  I have found your responses to other threads interesting 
 >also.  However, posting a message such as the one in question will do 
little 
 >more than earn you a place in many members' kill files.  Your posts, 
 >observations, and opinions deserve a better fate than that.
 >     I look forward to your future posts on a variety of threads and feel 
 >certain that you will conduct yourself in a truly civil manner.
 >
 > 
 >     Sincerely,
 >     William R. Cameron, aka Larsen E. Whipsnade

How can I answer such courteousness?

I fully apologize to Walt Smith, and withdraw my statement without further 
comment.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 17:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 16:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Blowing holes in Japan (was " Re Patton")
References: <00d901c23a66$05486160$4a2bf7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <3D4B1239.5090805@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Fred Ramen wrote:

> Oh, I agree that the Stalin didn't want to expand the conflict any more than
> Truman did. My point was merely that it would have been extremely unlikely
> for the Soviets to allow a divided Japan (as posited in Mr. Whipsnade's
> original post) to be used as a staging area for American intervention in
> Korea (or Vietnam, for that matter).
> 
> Of course, I may be overstating the importance of Japan to US Pacific
> security, and am quite open to being corrected in this regard.

Actually, the main reason we used Japan as the staging area was because 
we were there and it was close.

Had we been denied the use of Japan, we'd have used the Phillipines instead.

Same thing goes for Vietnam.

Then again, had it come to a divided Japan a 'la Germany, the whole Cold 
War thing would have gone quite differently. Vietnam would probably not 
have happened in any way like it did.

(Also, do not forget that during the Korean War, Germany was divided, 
but not like it was later...the Berlin Wall didn't go up until the 60's, 
and we'd just shown Stalin we were willing to go toe-to-toe over Germany 
during the Berlin Airlift. )

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 17:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 16:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <200208022348.g72Nmuw05627@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
>Subject: RE: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
...
>A Wombat swarmers is an anti capital ship weapon.
...
>ARMAMENT
>1 100-ton Meson Bay (Factor-9)

  The 12+ to penetrate a USP one Meson Screen isn't a concern?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 17:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Fri Aug  2 16:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <20020802194954.28a957e7c9c445afb801cb79a22bb3ad.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>On 2 Aug 2002 at 10:28, Cheng Tseng wrote:
>
>> Well, it would have greatly improved the British chances of attacking the
>> German ships if it did not take until just before the Germans were passing
>> the Straits of Dover to even know they were at sea.  At least then, the
>> Brits could have had time to assemble an all-out attack instead of send the
>> aircrafts in dribbles and drabs which allowed the Luftwaffe to kill them.
>> One of Adolf Galland's finer moments, providing air cover for the cruisers.
>
>Yep. It also helped that somewhere in the British communications chain 
>they transformed from 30,000 ton battlecruisers at 30 knots to 20,000 
>ton merchants at 20 knots, so the British pilots were all firing their 
>torpedos with their sights set incorrectly.

Even today, I am still amazed just how lucky the Germans were.  Even with
all their planning, they still could not have predicted the good fortune
they actually got.

Running out of Brest before just about everybody on the British side
believing they would (Bertram Ramsey was apparently the only British
commanding officer who thought the S, G and PRINZ EUGEN would make the dash
so soon.).  Managing to do so at the time the submarine assigned to monitor
Brest was standing out to charge her batteries.  Evading all THREE maritime
search aircraft patrol lines either because the aircrafts had busted
equipment or extremely bad flying weather.  Having so few British torpedo
aircrafts facing them, and having that number cut down even more because the
mobile torpedor service and rearmament unit providing the torpedors got
bogged down in a snow storm.  The list is just mind-boggling.

Okay, I must be suffering from premature Alzheimer's.  There was Swordfishes
during the Dash.  Ouch, one entire flight completely wiped out, with no
survivors.  At least something like half the other flight crews manage to
escape with their lives.

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

 My Sale List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
 My Want List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: max hull size
Message-ID: <200208030007.g7307Bw08657@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Flykiller@aol.com
>Subject: [TML] max hull size
...
> >Again, I'm assuming CT.  Let's see .... at tech 12, max hull size is 
>199,999 
> 
>   <1 MT (USP X) per HG2, pps. 26 & 28.
>
>Sorry -- CT HG.  I don't know what HG2 does.

  OMG - someone _uses_ HG1?! I only got a copy by accident...
neat read, though.

  BTW, do the Reprints include both editions of HG?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Meduim Navies
Message-ID: <3D4B1F7E.736A3F94@mail.cswnet.com>

This may have gotten lost in my last post and the minor flame spat 
going on, so I'll throw it out again and see if anyone bites.

What would the Imperuim see as the maximum allowable size, maximum
allowable quantitative/qualitative weaponry, for a mercenary ship?

Presumabley they would frown on paws and meson guns, but would they
allow big bay weapons?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption (was: warship optimization)
References: <F176AUfKRfcjcMzfoV100024006@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B20D8.AB8EE248@pobox.com>


"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:

> From: Bill Hopper <whopper@pobox.com>
>
>      "I agree that a sub-100dT fighter cannot carry a weapon which can hurt
> a TL15 capital ship, mostly because of the difference in computer size.
> This is why the "fighters" in the smoke test were actually 1000dT boats with
> factor-9 missile bays."
>
> Mr. Hopper,
>
>      The fighter designs used in the smoke tests I was referring to were
> sub-100Ton types.  They were also run at TL12.  Here are the USPs:

I apologize for my confusion.  I must have confused a couple of threads.  I
remembered the missile boat discussion and mistakenly thought it was what you
referred to.

WKH


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <000001c23a6b$4f795aa0$6501a8c0@Darla>
Message-ID: <B9706F61.67837%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/2/02 2:26 PM, Thomas Barnes at twb3@charter.net wrote:

>> However in a fighter you probably are
> 
> I can't agree that the isolation of the cockpit would do that.  I've
> worked with a lot of RL fighter pilots, both Air Force and Navy, and for
> the most part they would rather die than look bad, ESPECIALLY in front
> of the rest of the squadron.

This goes back to what I was saying earlier about the importance of small
groups in the military.  People often do dangerous and risky things for no
other reason than to not look bad in front of their squad mates, or just not
let them down.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] max hull size
References: <ff.1ba47012.2a7c6111@aol.com>
Message-ID: <009d01c23a84$ad976730$7400a8c0@matt>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
>> Again, I'm assuming CT.  Let's see .... at tech 12, max hull size is
>> 199,999
>
>    <1 MT (USP X) per HG2, pps. 26 & 28.
>
> Sorry -- CT HG.  I don't know what HG2 does.

HG2 is CT Book 5: High Guard, 2nd edition.

It was published in 1980, replacing the 1st edition published in 1979. There
was a series of articles in JTAS at the time on updating your version from
1st to 2nd to save you buying a new copy. Obviously this passed you by.

The version in the CT Reprints is HG2.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <200208030033.LYB00224@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Glenn M. Goffin" says
>I have on many occasions in my career as a lawyer

Often, I have marvelled at how some of the more intelligent 
people I have met (successful intelligent people, that is) 
have a carefully selected lawyer and a carefully selected 
accountant.

Most Traveller parties need a full time lawyer - but how many 
have you seen with one? 
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <99.2a2d475a.2a779a93@aol.com> <3D4A0109.D48E52E6@pobox.com> <005801c23a04$ec770b20$0112bd50@martinjd> <006401c23a0f$3ca9da00$7400a8c0@matt> <003201c23a14$66243100$7d03bd50@martinjd> <00a601c23a14$be1ddbe0$7400a8c0@matt> <005901c23a1d$16700d60$7d03bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3D4B277E.4E21AE33@pobox.com>

Matt, Martin,
I agree with both points presented below.  I think fighters should be more
effective in a coordinated, massed attack than they are individually.  I also
agree that 'coordinated' is the key term.

My solution is to group fighters into a 'squadron' so that their weapons can be
combined into one battery. But to do so, the squadrom must have a controlling or
'master' fighter.  The squadron's combined attack is treated as if it is one
battery, and uses the rating of the computer in the controlling fighter with an
additional -1 modifier.

All fighters in a squadron have to be of the same type, with the same agility.
Damaged fighters drop out of the squadron and become individuals.

So a squadron of 10 fighters, each with a triple laser turret, and controlled by
a master fighter with a model 8 computer, would attack as a single code-9
battery fired by a model 7 computer.

If the master fighter is destroyed, the squadron disintegrates into 10
individual fighters.  If a fighter is damaged or destroyed, the battery's rating
is reduced appropriately.  Undamaged fighters can be re-integrated into
squadrons by spending a turn in the reserve with a new master.

Role-playing never came up in relation to this, but for role-playing purposes I
would have the master fighter making recommendations to the pilots of the
squadron, perhaps through a Heads Up Display.  The individual pilots could
disregard the recommendations if they were willing to accept the consequences.

WKH

MJ Dougherty wrote:

> > > Why do you want fighters to be more effective?
> >
> > So that they can have an outside possibility of damaging Capital ships at
> > high TL
>
> And again, why do you want this? Barring me swallowing some and suffering
> some strange kind of poisoning, no amount of flies can beat me in a straight
> fight. My feeling is that fightrers are good for screening and keeping
> merchies in line. Big ships are for killing big ships.
>
> > >
> > > I see the concept, though you'd have to simulate C3 breakdowns, loss
> > > of cohesion etc
> >
> > Sure, just as soon as we do the same for the escorting PD ships of the
> > defending Fleet...
>
> Indeed, though coordinaitng a useful fighter attack requires external comms.
> Escorts can operate on internal comms (hard to jam) and even independently,
> can be useful if the captains are smart. Uncoordinated fighters are just as
> big mess.
>
> >
> > HG is pretty abstract anyway, so this level of detail is unnecessary IMHO.
> > All I am doing is letting Fighters act like Turrets. If several turrets
> can
> > concentrate their fire to increase their effectiveness, why can't several
> > fighters?
>
> Becuase turrets are controlled with internal comms, hardwired through the
> ship, while ifghters have to talk externally and are subject to jamming or
> other problems. And becuase you don't get a battery of turrests scattering
> due to evasion and having to reform.
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <99.2a2d475a.2a779a93@aol.com> <3D4A0109.D48E52E6@pobox.com> <005801c23a04$ec770b20$0112bd50@martinjd> <006401c23a0f$3ca9da00$7400a8c0@matt> <003201c23a14$66243100$7d03bd50@martinjd> <00a601c23a14$be1ddbe0$7400a8c0@matt> <005901c23a1d$16700d60$7d03bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3D4B2746.90DDF4D1@pobox.com>

Matt, Martin,
I agree with both points presented below.  I think fighters should be more
effective in a coordinated, massed attack than they are individually.  I also
agree that 'coordinated' is the key term.

My solution is to group fighters into a 'squadron' so that their weapons can be
combined into one battery. But to do so, the squadrom must have a controlling or
'master' fighter.  The squadron's combined attack is treated as if it is one
battery, and uses the rating of the computer in the controlling fighter with an
additional -1 modifier.

All fighters in a squadron have to be of the same type, with the same agility.
Damaged fighters drop out of the squadron and become individuals.

So a squadron of 10 fighters, each with a triple laser turret, and controlled by
a master fighter with a model 8 computer, would attack as a single code-9
battery fired by a model 7 computer.

If the master fighter is destroyed, the squadron disintegrates into 10
individual fighters.  If a fighter is damaged or destroyed, the battery's rating
is reduced appropriately.  Undamaged fighters can be re-integrated into
squadrons by spending a turn in the reserve with a new master.

Role-playing never came up in relation to this, but for role-playing purposes I
would have the master fighter making recommendations to the pilots of the
squadron, perhaps through a Heads Up Display.  The individual pilots could
disregard the recommendations if they were willing to accept the consequences.

WKH

MJ Dougherty wrote:

> > > Why do you want fighters to be more effective?
> >
> > So that they can have an outside possibility of damaging Capital ships at
> > high TL
>
> And again, why do you want this? Barring me swallowing some and suffering
> some strange kind of poisoning, no amount of flies can beat me in a straight
> fight. My feeling is that fightrers are good for screening and keeping
> merchies in line. Big ships are for killing big ships.
>
> > >
> > > I see the concept, though you'd have to simulate C3 breakdowns, loss
> > > of cohesion etc
> >
> > Sure, just as soon as we do the same for the escorting PD ships of the
> > defending Fleet...
>
> Indeed, though coordinaitng a useful fighter attack requires external comms.
> Escorts can operate on internal comms (hard to jam) and even independently,
> can be useful if the captains are smart. Uncoordinated fighters are just as
> big mess.
>
> >
> > HG is pretty abstract anyway, so this level of detail is unnecessary IMHO.
> > All I am doing is letting Fighters act like Turrets. If several turrets
> can
> > concentrate their fire to increase their effectiveness, why can't several
> > fighters?
>
> Becuase turrets are controlled with internal comms, hardwired through the
> ship, while ifghters have to talk externally and are subject to jamming or
> other problems. And becuase you don't get a battery of turrests scattering
> due to evasion and having to reform.
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: troll optimization on the TML
Message-ID: <200208030048.LYB01066@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mexal says
>I am laughing too hard to issue the requisite command.
>
>Mexal.
>former infantry sergeant of the female persuasion.

Mex, you need to have Fly run around the parade ground until 
you get tired...
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:50:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:50:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re: max hull size
Message-ID: <200208030049.LYB01145@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Steven Hudson asks
>  BTW, do the Reprints include both editions of HG?

Nope. The reprints have HG2 (which was, in its time, issued 
very briefly).
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:53:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:53:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <014a01c23a78$a159d220$5d0bbd50@martinjd>
References: <112.1523c9f7.2a7c50e1@aol.com>
 <014a01c23a78$a159d220$5d0bbd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <m3znw4epbc.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> writes:
> 
> Yeah, and I've seen human beings who were skilled and competent and
> determined and motivated and just plain better than me being kept
> down because they were born female.  You can't damn half the human
> race on a generality.

And I daresay that if we have women serving in full combat capacity
under the regimes of either seperate standards (i.e. where they must
not meet the same standards as men) or reduced standards (e.g. I
understand that two-man stretcher teams are now four or more), we will
see plenty of human beings who die miserably because their comrades
are not up to the task.

And I hardly think that shielding from death and destruction is
`damning.'  Rather a nice thing to do, as a matter of fact.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
There has grown in the minds of certain groups in this country the
idea that just because a man or corporation has made a profit out of
the public for a number of years, the government and the courts are
charged with guaranteeing such profit in the future, even in the face
of changing circumstances and contrary to public interest.  This
strange doctrine is supported by neither statue or common law.  Neither
corporations or individuals have the right to come into court and ask
that the clock of history be stopped, or turned back.
                  --Robert Heinlein, Life Line, 1939

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Meduim Navies
Message-ID: <200208030055.LYB01410@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Roseberry says
>What would the Imperuim see as the maximum allowable size, 
>maximum allowable quantitative/qualitative weaponry, for a 
>mercenary ship?
>

I believe that it should not be so much ship size, as a 
merchant could very well be a 100,000 ton ship.

As for the quantity of weaponry, that should be dealt with in 
combination with the quality.  I think that the limitation 
should be "is is a weapon of mass destruction?"

Along those lines, I think that most fusion weapons should be 
OK, since they are short range. You would have to be in range 
of planetary defenses to use them.  

PAWS of any size should be OK.  They do not penetrate 
atmospheres, and are not wide area effects weapons.

Meson guns - probably a no no in any size or quantity.

No nuclear warheads.

I would think that lasers would have to be of a wavelength 
that is guaranteed to be absorbed by atmosphere.  There are 
some tunable deuterium flouride lasers today that experience 
close to zero loss over their operational range in 
atmosphere.  These could be effective weapons of 
assassination - something I wouldn't want mercenaries to have.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 19:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Barnett-Lewis)
Date: Fri Aug  2 18:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <20020802231503.19852.60096.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B3637.35538EB8@mailbag.com>

Flykiller@aol.com said:
> Whatever benefits they bring I think are outweighed by the negatives.  I'd
> dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their
> traditional roles of nurse and clerk.  If the US military is so hard-up for
> warm bodies that it really needs females, then I say reinstitute the WACS and
> WAVES and whatever else, with their own standards and their own chain of
> command, and put them in charge of stateside facilities like hospitals and
> supply depots and personnel offices so men are freed up for more forward
> duties.
>

Pity. I had thought not to killfile you. Now I know better. 

Not quite Clint, yet even Clint had some intellegent moments.

For the record, as a male US Army NCO, I had far fewer problems with
female soldiers than with certain of my own physical gender.

William
Ex-E5 USA
19E, 19D, 11B, 96B
-- 
You better watch out   What you wish for;
It better be worth it  So much to die for.
		       Courtney Love

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 20:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 19:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <m3znw4epbc.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <B97089CA.67857%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/2/02 5:52 PM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> And I daresay that if we have women serving in full combat capacity
> under the regimes of either seperate standards (i.e. where they must
> not meet the same standards as men) or reduced standards (e.g. I
> understand that two-man stretcher teams are now four or more), we will
> see plenty of human beings who die miserably because their comrades
> are not up to the task.
> 
> And I hardly think that shielding from death and destruction is
> `damning.'  Rather a nice thing to do, as a matter of fact.

But this is the TML, and one supposes that in the 57th century, the measure
of a sophont's fitness for a particular duty is tied to their ability to
perform it.  One may assume that the Imperium establishes baseline
requirements for, say an MOS, and holds to those standards regardless of
race or gender.  This may result in a higher proportion of males in a
particular MOS, perhaps females in another.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 20:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  2 19:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <200208021317.LXD04141@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208021317.LXD04141@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020803121831.A14679@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> A large system like this would have to maintain a considerable
> number of ships in order to defend these assets,

Oh, I agree entirely.  The post upon which I was commenting used the
Battle of the Atlantic as an example of how commerce raiders might
cripple your economy.  I was just pointing out that systems in
Traveller are hundreds of times less dependent upon external trade
than England was.

In-system commerce raiding in Traveller is a different matter
entirely.  The ability of a small enemy force to jump in nearly
anywhere, do some damage and pop out again is extremely difficult to
defend against.  However, the defending ships do not need jump drives
or jump fuel, which makes them significantly cheaper and hence able to
pack a lot more punch for a given size/cost.  Important planets have
their supplies locally produced, which greatly simplifies logistics.



> and protect shipping between these points.  Convoys may be forced to
> use jump ships to do intrasystem jumps to avoid raiders,

Not likely, I would think.  That would cripple your economy worse than
losing 70% of your ships.  You'd be better off escorting them in
normal space, since non-jump ships are so much cheaper than jump
capable ones.

It should not be forgotten that any information the raiders have must
always be at least two weeks out of date by the time they strike.


> and ships inbound/outbound from the system would have to jump at the
> 100D limit without fail after being escorted the entire distance to
> and from the port.

No.  The raider ships aren't going to strike inside the 100D limit of
any meaningful system.

1) If they try, the planetary defences *will* make mincemeat of them
in short order.

2) It is much riskier for them to hit the 'jump' button if they meet
something nastier than them.  And they will, see (1).

3) Their information is two weeks out of date.  Their arrival time is
uncertain to at least a few hours.  They have to strike when a target
is at least half-way out, in the right direction, but hasn't reached
the limit yet.  That's a pretty narrow window, and even then requires
that no sizable armed vessels be nearby.


> In essence, laying siege to such a system might first mean whittling
> down the system defense boats and local fighters with fighter raids
> and light commerce raiders.  You might, after a time, be left only
> with your larger monitors, port defenses, and planetary defense
> sites.

I think you're ignoring the effect of your own losses of any non-jump
ships, and of local replenishment.  You've got a much longer supply
line.


> Ships as small as fighters may also lay mines on courses to sweep
> through traffic areas.

Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.
Another problem is that "high traffic areas" change with the relative
positions of the planets, and even then they will be *very* sparse.

A typical "trading lane" between planets would probably be a region a
few hundred million kilometres long with an average cross-section of a
few tens of trillions of square kilometres.  How many mines do you
propose to put in it?

I could imagine trying to mine a gas-giant; that might work since they
could be rendered undetectable by the atmosphere and yet be within
range of a intruding craft.  However, you would almost certainly be
hit by any pre-existing mines or other defences that were in place
while you were trying to lay them.


>  I would bet that for such an advanced system, while it might well
> be able to subsist on its own, it won't profit as much, especially
> if it engages in trade with a nearby world of similar stature.

Given that most major worlds have trade less than 0.2% of GWP, profits
will be virtually untouched.  Even the major neighbouring worlds of
Rhylanor and Porozlo have trade with each other that is only 1% of
their GWPs.  Look at the countries that have trade somewhere around
0.4% of your nation's GDP, and think about how strong an effect there
would be on your economy if you lost the ability to trade with one of
them in wartime.


> A continuous series of light hit and run raids would force 
> diversion of assets you would ordinarily use elsewhere,

You would also suffer pretty significant attrition yourself, and your
ships are both more expensive and harder to replace.


But overall, I agree that insystem raiding might be a viable tactic.
Keep the raids to areas outside a planet's 100D limit, though.  Target
commerce routes in interplanetary space.  Have excellent sensors to
spot commercial traffic at very long range.  Have high enough thrust
that you can reach targets before the system defences do.  Don't
bother with a stealthy ship -- your jump flash will be spotted anyway,
and you will be tracked automatically.  Use a large number of
alternate refuelling locations in the outer system or in deep space.

The biggest problem for the defender is the ability for the raider to
jump out whenever things are looking risky, without any possibility of
pursuit.  Q-ships are about the only reasonable counter I can think of
at the moment, and even then only to the extent that they can maul the
raiders in the two rounds it takes for them to discover their error
and jump out.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 20:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug  2 19:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <B97089CA.67857%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B97089CA.67857%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m3vg6sejwf.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> 
> But this is the TML, and one supposes that in the 57th century, the
> measure of a sophont's fitness for a particular duty is tied to
> their ability to perform it.  One may assume that the Imperium
> establishes baseline requirements for, say an MOS, and holds to
> those standards regardless of race or gender.  This may result in a
> higher proportion of males in a particular MOS, perhaps females in
> another.

Yep.  I've heard, for example, a theory that women might actually make
better fighter pilots, due to endurance or soemthing like that.
They're also supposed to be better in things like radar rooms.  But
I'm certainly no expert on gender differences.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
French General: `I knew it.  You Germans are only useful as garrison soldiers.'
German Colonel: `True.  In the last war, we garrisoned Paris, Nice, Lyon...'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 20:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Aug  2 19:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Baboon Class Missile Frigate CREWS
References: <20020802231503.19852.60096.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00f401c23a99$36e54e80$c15d8690@computer>

> From: Flykiller@aol.com
> They are too inefficient to kill, yes.  But they can still be a royal pain
> in the ass.  In the end though capital ships can kill them but they can't
> kill capital ships.  Eventually they run out of missiles.

Only in the real world, not in HG. : )

For what it's worth, these things are as cheap as chips. 1500 Missile Bays
fired at one or two capital ships will mission kill them pretty thoroughly.

They do actually die a little bit too fast, but they can make a nice mess of
the capital ships that destroy them.

> I think the big problem with this kind of boat is not their inefficiency,
> but their crews.

This is less of a problem if you consider that they are basically escorts.
Suicide runs against capital ships aren't _really_ what they spend most of
their time doing.

In any case the design is a bit of a first draft. I would tweak it a bit
before I used it in a real Traveller game. If you remember that these things
are frigates, not kamikazes, they are survivable enough.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 20:52:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Aug  2 19:52:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonabo Class Missile Frigate
References: <20020802202311.16203.94229.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00f501c23a99$377c5e60$c15d8690@computer>

> From: Flykiller@aol.com
> No armor?  No low berths?  No medical facilities?  No lifeboat?  No cargo
> supplies?  Well, at least it seems to have extra crewmen -- if you can get
> anyone to sign up.  If I were the referee I'd give this boat an endurance
> of 1 - 2 months max.

It's easy enough to pump up the endurance. Making the ship a bit bigger
should do the trick, although it gets more expensive.

>  >In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships.
> Yes, in sufficient numbers, and if the capital ships are poorly designed
> and employed.  But credit for credit you'll never get the numbers
> sufficient to do so.  Meanwhile with no armor these ships will be dropping
> like flies.

It's a Jump 5 design. That's a huge chunk of displacement gone, and it means
that credit for credit they can't fight capital ships. On the other hand,
they are reasonably hard to hit, and they are relatively cheap, so you can
buy lots and lots of them.

In a strategic game they could be quite useful - they are highly mobile, and
can be all over their opponent's space. And if a whole bunch of them run
into a small group of capital ships, then, yes, they can kill them!

Their survivability is less of a problem if you consider that they wouldn't
spend most of their time attacking capital ships.

Incidentally, it goes without saying that these things kill TL E- ships
quite nicely.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com







From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 20:53:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Aug  2 19:53:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <00f301c23a99$354ad860$c15d8690@computer>

> From: Flykiller@aol.com
> I've seen a handful.  Offsetting this, I've seen companies where every
<rant snipped>
> supply depots and personnel offices so men are freed up for more forward
> duties.

I'm impressed. Your talent for alienating people is quite remarkable.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 20:54:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Aug  2 19:54:22 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Baboon Class Missile Frigate
References: <20020802062003.11635.24330.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00f601c23a99$382d5ee0$c15d8690@computer>

> From: Steven Hudson
> >In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships.
>
>   <QUIBBLE> Not really? By TL E or F dampers make these ships just
> too inefficient, IIRC?

Dampers certainly don't help! They knock out about 5 out of every 6 shot
that hits (and penetrates active defences).

A trillion credits worth of these things will only mission kill one or two
capital ships per turn, and will suffer considerable losses in return.

They probably don't work out as a match for capital ships, but they are
close enough to be useful, I suspect.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <200208021928.LXQ00226@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020802195559.46a76b08@pop.mindspring.com>

At 03:28 PM 8/2/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>"Douglas E. Berry" says
>>Doesn't stop the flow of volunteers.
>
>Me! Me! Pick me!

1. Are you nuts?

2. Really nuts?

3. Can you lie perfectly still while an enemy soldier urinates on you?

4. As in #4, but it is a National Guardsman during a training mission.

5. Do you stand and remove your hat when you hear GnySgt Carlos Hathcock
mentioned?

6. Do you believe in your heart of hearts that there is no such thing as
friendly artillery?

7. When walking in open areas, do you automatically check sight lines and
exfil routes?

8. Do you refer to your wife as your spotter?

9. Do you/Did you make every target at 300 meters but miss the 50 meter ones?

10. We mean it, are you *really* nuts?

If you answered yes to all these questions, you might have what it takes.
Just send Cr 20 and 10 7.62mm shell casings to:

Sniping for Dummies
c/o ACQ Weapons
Box 26, Gridlore Complex
Lunion Up #3
Lunion/Lunion/Spinward Marches
-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Animals who are not penguins can only wish they were.
-Chicago reader, 10/15/82

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:03:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:03:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <112.1523c9f7.2a7c50e1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020802200157.46a789a6@pop.mindspring.com>

At 05:17 PM 8/2/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>Whatever benefits they bring I think are outweighed by the negatives.  I'd 
>dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their 
>traditional roles of nurse and clerk.

I knew many excellent female soldiers, who pulled their weight and then
some.  I also saw many male soldiers who whined and always seemed to be on
profile.

The 50s ended, my dear sir.  As long as they can do the job.  Oh, and an
NCO having sex with a solider in the same chain of command is a violation
of the UCMJ.  They deserved to get busted.
-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"I am the penguin bold! We sailed the sea, to tringalee,
in search of spanish gold" - The Magic Pudding - Norman Lindsay

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:04:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:04:34 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #819 - 24 msgs
References: <3.0.6.32.20020726120258.00a167e0@minn.net>
Message-ID: <3D4B47FA.2000108@gmx.net>

Leslie Bates wrote:

>At 09:30 AM 7/26/2002 -0400, "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Space Viking is definitely a "Traveller-like" book, and the Sword Worlds
>>feature prominently. My only complaint with it? It could actually have made
>>a much longer and more detailed novel.
>>    
>>
>
>Space Viking was originally written for serial publication in ANALOG. Even
>if Piper hadn't shot himself, the market conditions for Science Fiction
>novels would not have justified the rewrite. 
>
>And in my view, Space Viking could have been made into a bloody great movie.
>
>  
>
Still can ... anyone got contacts?

>Les
>
>==================================================================
>Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
>P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
>------------------------------------------------------------------
>The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
>				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
>==================================================================
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
>
>  
>


-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: UFO
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020731085909.45e7b234@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208031234400.22432-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Douglas:

On Wed, 31 Jul 2002, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> I was trying to grow up, then I got cancer, and decided that life was too
> short to be serious about it.
>
> Many cancer patients have a "New Life Birthday," dating from their
> diagnosis date (July 27th for me.)  So I just turned 7.  A good age, in my
> opinion. :)

 I completly understand what you are saying. FWIW I turned 20 in June the
same way. Got the word when I was 30. I responded to treatments and it
disappeared. I refuse to grow up. Besides it would blow my PTSD benefits
<LOL>

BCNU

-- 
 *****        Lord Ronin from Q-Link
******  ****  Sensei David O.E. Mohr
**      ***   Chancellor & Editor for
**            Amiga & Commodore Users Group #447
**      ***   SysOp: The Village BBS {Centipede}
******  ****  503-325-2905 300-28.8K C/G-Ascii-Ansi
 *****        Files, Games, E-Mail, PBEM, Msg Bases


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: max hull size
References: <200208030049.LYB01145@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c23a9b$8969cf30$7400a8c0@matt>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> Steven Hudson asks
>>  BTW, do the Reprints include both editions of HG?
>
> Nope. The reprints have HG2 (which was, in its time, issued
> very briefly).

Briefly?

When did MT come out? '86 wasn't it? Thats 6 years. HG1 was only out for a
year or so. HG1 was published in '79 and HG2 in '80.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: JTAS
Message-ID: <fb.2a270e0d.2a7ca408@aol.com>

>[**] For those who would like to participate, just go to the 
>Starship/Vehicle Design discussion board on JTAS.  Not a subscriber?  
>Why not?  It's only $15 US per two years for biweekly issues and access 
>to archives, discussion boards and Brubek's chat room.  [And if you 
>mention that aurictech referred you, I get a free month added to _my_ 
>subscription! ;-)]
>
>http://jtas.sjgames.com/subscribe/

You also get the thrill of reading my editorials, wherein I discuss items of 
vast import, like where to get the Emperor's favorite wine, and how tomatoes 
and Thomas Jefferson are relevant to Traveller.

Not to mention the assorted design competetions, scintilating discussions, 
and other kewl stuff. JTAS will restore hair (unless you don't want it 
restored), help you lose weight (or gain it), put steam in your stride (which 
isn't as painful as it sounds), and will (like Tree-Frog Beer) make you look 
great and have lots of girlfriends (and/or boyfriends, if you prefer). 

OK, maybe not ALL that stuff, but it IS worth $15 for 2 years. 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Superstition (and Movies)
Message-ID: <d.2aca729a.2a7ca6f7@aol.com>

>At one point during WWII the survival rates of US aviator pilits was not 
>*much* better than kamakazi's. The crucial element is that they believed 
>that their survival was ultimately influenced by their actions and 
>abilities and their omnipresent good luck.

The movie MEMPHIS BELLE (the 1990s remake, not the earlier documentary) 
illustrates this about as accurately as Hollywood ever gets history. It's a 
pretty good representation of the history involved, including the extreme 
youth of the aircrew.

"Danny! Jack threw my St Christopher overboard!"
"Here, take my lucky rubber band . . . it works, honest."

Several years ago, I was toying with the notion of writing a book of war 
movie reviews discussing the relative level of accuracy of each (although I 
think it has already been done). GETTYSBURG is one of my faves in this 
regard. 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Blowing holes in Japan (was " Re Patton")
Message-ID: <F215m4i0FN8Qnr2Hs3j00000007@hotmail.com>

From: "Fred Ramen" <von_rammen@msn.com>

     "Oh, I agree that the Stalin didn't want to expand the conflict any 
more than Truman did. My point was merely that it would have been extremely 
unlikely for the Soviets to allow a divided Japan (as posited in Mr. 
Whipsnade's original post) to be used as a staging area for American 
intervention in Korea (or Vietnam, for that matter)."


My dear Mr. Ramen,

     I completely agree with your analysis, an invaded, occupied, and 
divided Japan could have never been used to support or supply a war in 
Korea.  OTOH, if the Allies had found it necessary to invade Japan, there 
wouldn't have been a Korean war in the first place.
     Soviet Far Eastern forces, which were in the process of clearing 
Manchuria of Japanese troops during August of '45, would have simply 
continued the process down the Korean penninsular.  There would have been no 
division of control between US and USSR at the 38th parallel, as happened in 
history, the USSR would control the entire penninsular and Kim Il Sung would 
have been installed as the acting puppet premier of a communist and united 
Korean nation.
     After disposing of the Korean conflict, the rest of the Cold War in the 
Pacific gets murky.  The USSR would have warm water ports in Korea, 
Hokkaido, and northern Honshu, none of which have the "choke points" that 
assisted us in the Atlantic.  The Pacific would not have been the placid 
American lake it was in our history.
     Oddly enough, having Soviet troops in a Tokyo sector surrounded by an 
American occupation zone may have given the Kremlin pause.  Would there have 
been a Berlin blockade if a corresponding Tokyo blockade was threatened?
     Also, an invasion of Japan may have created a far more nervous post-war 
US.  Having 100s of thousands of troops tied down in our parts of the Home 
Islands fighting against a guerilla campaign would have had some effect on 
the home front.
     Nationalist Chinese troops were slated to occupy portions of the Home 
Islands if an invasion came off.  How would Mao's victory in '49 have 
effected those forces?  Would Mao's triumph even have occurred?  The 
Nationalists may have been forced by a more nervous West to reform, instead 
of being virtually ignored after the war ended.  China could be balkanized 
in the invasion timeline.
     Vietnam is another problem.  Would the US have let the French flounder 
around as they did if we were as worried about the Pacfic as we were about 
Europe?  The US dealt with Tito, he may have been a commie but he wasn't the 
Kremlin's boy.  One wonders if a similar relationship would have been made 
with Ho Chi Minh.  A more likely scenario would have been an early and 
forceful entry in to the Vietnam conflict by the US in the 50's.
     The result may have been an Indochina similar to our Central America, 
rat bastards in charge of corrupt, laughing-stock nations supported by the 
West solely because they aren't communists.
     The effects of all this on the Phillipines is unclear too.  Would the 
US take a more active interest, for good or ill, in Manila if the Pacific 
was more threatening?  What would have been the effect on all the European 
colonies in South East Asia?  Would an Indonesia or a Malaysia happened?
     Gee, ain't alternate history fun?

     "Of course, I may be overstating the importance of Japan to US Pacific 
security, and am quite open to being corrected in this regard."

     I don't think it could be overstated.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:35:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat HULL THICKNESS LIMITATION
Message-ID: <190.ad335f8.2a7ca953@aol.com>

 >HULL
 >185.000 tons standard, 2,590.000 cubic meters, Planetoid Configuration

In a Planetoid Configuration of this size the maximum thickness of the outer 
hull is 0.6 meters and likely much less.  If this ship were 185,000 tons, the 
maximum outer thickness of the outer hull would be 6.0 meters.  Yet in both 
cases they are considered to be naturally armor 3.  I think there should be a 
lower limit on allowable tonnages for Planetoid and Buffered Planetoid ships.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat
Message-ID: <c5.26be7ee0.2a7caa89@aol.com>

 >In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships which have an armor
 >factor of 13 or less.

With a fusion gun?  I'm sorry, you must be using rules I'm not familiar with. 
 I was thinking of High Guard.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020802200157.46a789a6@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <3.0.5.16.20020802200157.46a789a6@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m3k7n8eh5f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes:
>
> Oh, and an NCO having sex with a solider in the same chain of
> command is a violation of the UCMJ.  They deserved to get busted.

That's a nice enough theory, but if one throws a bunch of 18-20
yr. old boys and girls together they're going to get randy.  That's
the Way It Is, regardless of what the rules are.  At least if one
believes the modern prattle that one's sexual drive is irresistible,
then one cannot hold anyone to account for giving in to said drive.
And if one _doesn't_ hold to said prattle, then there's a whole load
of other things one must abandon.

I'd find the whole business amusing, were it not so deadly serious.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
According to the National Crime Survey administered by the Bureau of
the Census and the National Institute of Justice, it was found that
only 12 percent of those who use a gun to resist assault are injured,
as are 17 percent of those who use a gun to resist robbery.  These
percentages are 27 and 25 percent, respectively, if they passively
comply with the felon's demands.  Three times as many were injured if
they used other means of resistance.
          --G. Kleck, Policy Lessons from Recent Gun Control Research

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: JTAS
In-Reply-To: <fb.2a270e0d.2a7ca408@aol.com>
References: <fb.2a270e0d.2a7ca408@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3fzxweh3i.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

GDWGAMES@aol.com writes:
> 
> OK, maybe not ALL that stuff, but it IS worth $15 for 2 years. 

Seconded.  JTAS is _very_ cool.  I like it lots.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
With the Smart Ship's reputation so far, they will have to build a bloody
big trebuchet for the damn thing to be useful as a weapon.
                                         --Derry Hamilton

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <m3k7n8eh5f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <3.0.5.16.20020802200157.46a789a6@pop.mindspring.com> <m3k7n8eh5f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020803135320.A15209@freeman.little-possums.net>

Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> At least if one believes the modern prattle that one's sexual drive
> is irresistible,

I've never heard that one before.  Where is it prattled, and who
prattles it?


> And if one _doesn't_ hold to said prattle, then there's a whole load
> of other things one must abandon.

Like what?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
Message-ID: <18b.bc68e45.2a7cae08@aol.com>

 >> >Nor will I criticize the voters of that city for being stupid enough to
 >> >re-elect as mayor a convicted drug dealer, and then expect the tone of 
the
 >> >city to be anything other than what it is.
 >
 >>Oh, but they're not stupid.  They knew what the tone of the city would be. 
 
 >>That's why they voted for him.
 >
 >I refuse to believe that they _want_ a city that is so badly mismanaged
 >that Congress was ready to take away what autonomy they had.

What was it Ayn Rand said -- "To refuse to consider something is to fear that 
the worst is true"?  Something like that.  If the people of D.C. didn't want 
what they have, they'd do something about it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 22:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 21:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
Message-ID: <2d.211708b3.2a7cb2c1@aol.com>

 >All I am doing is letting Fighters act like Turrets. If several turrets can
 >concentrate their fire to increase their effectiveness, why can't several
 >fighters?

You could extend this same concept to spinal mount vessels.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 22:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 21:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <20020803135320.A15209@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <B970A810.6788B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/2/02 8:53 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:

> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
>> At least if one believes the modern prattle that one's sexual drive
>> is irresistible,
> 
> I've never heard that one before.  Where is it prattled, and who
> prattles it?
> 

Here on the TML, for one place.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 22:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 21:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>

 >> How
 >> serious is the trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took place because
 >> the small island of England was not self-sufficient in either agricultural
 >> or industrial matters, but I don't think this situation will arise on many
 >> _planets_.  If trade is truly a major issue and lifeline then a massed 
herd
 >> of raiders will be crippling regardless of any other fleet elements
 >> employed.  But I think most planets with populations sufficient to have
 >> significant trade connections will have huge internal capacites to produce
 >> what they need anyway, and huge reserves of whatever they have to import
 >> (consider our Strategic Oil Reserve).  
 >
 >If planets are so self sufficient, then why does TNE describe planets 
failing 
 >because they were cut off from interstellar trade?

Don't know.  Doesn't make much sense to me.  I can see it happening here and 
there of course, but not en masse.  TNE may state it, but that's not 
necessarily a reason to just swallow it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 22:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri Aug  2 21:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Meduim Navies
References: <20020803025421.23615.36452.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B5AFB.8934A0CD@ameritech.net>

> Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 19:10:38 -0500
> From: Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com

> This may have gotten lost in my last post and the minor flame spat
> going on, so I'll throw it out again and see if anyone bites.
> 
> What would the Imperuim see as the maximum allowable size, maximum
> allowable quantitative/qualitative weaponry, for a mercenary ship?
> 
> Presumabley they would frown on paws and meson guns, but would they
> allow big bay weapons?

At first blush I think the authorities will start to watch closely if
you have armed ships bigger than 5-10,000 tons. As for weaponry if I
were in charge I'd definitely try to put the kibosh on privately held
bay weapons since they can pose a threat to IN ships of the line as well
as having the potential to escalate wars from the relatively clean form
that the Imperium tollerates to the kind of battle that can cause long
term damage to facilities, populations, and trade.

YMMV

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 22:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 21:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes
Message-ID: <4957.64.8.3.28.1028349006.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

Hello Folks,
  Just a question of sorts...

In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head tax" or does it charge
an income tax on its citizens for its Imperial Budget requirements?  In
short, if the Imperial government taxes 10% of a Gross Planetary Product,
then it would in essence be an income tax.  If it charges a flat 500 CR
per person on a planet, then it is a head tax.  Which is it?

And I find it an interesting thought here.  If the Imperium charges say,
3% of a planet's gross planetary product for its military taxes - this tax
is on top of the local ruler's/government's tax.  How much in the way of
taxes can a population take before its economy begins to stagnate?




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 22:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 21:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEKPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Thomas Barnes" <twb3@charter.net>
>
>> if the tables were turned. I have no doubt the Axis powers, had they won,
>> would have gone on a rampage of looting, rape, genocide, and destruction
>> that would boggle the mind, and luckily remains in the realm of
science-fiction.
>
>In fact, the Axis powers DID go on a rampage of looting, rape, genocide
>and destruction.  That is why they had to be stopped.

But it was such a limited rampage -- only most of Europe, western Russia,
the northern edge of Africa, China, Burma, Thailand, Indochina, the
Philippines, New Guinea, Indonesia, Melanesia, and Micronesia really
suffered.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 22:50:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 21:50:46 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Military Psychology
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEKPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com>
>Subject: [TML] re: Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
traveller)
>
>With "freezer pop" soldiers, you might have people who wake
>up, fight to the death for a week, then go back to sleep
>until the next fight to the death crops up. No down time,
>no ability to process what happened before it all starts
>again.  Imagine the post-war condition of the average US

For this reason, I doubt that the Imperial and Solomani militaries rely
heavily on low berth for troop transportation.  The Zhodani may have an edge
with better capabilities in psychology.

>Forever War was a helluva book, btw.

Agreed!

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIELACEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng)
>
>Even today, I am still amazed just how lucky the Germans were.  Even with
>all their planning, they still could not have predicted the good fortune
>they actually got.

Possible explanations for this run of luck:

1) That was when the devil was still living up to his side of the deal for
Hitler's soul.

2) That was when the Germans had the Ark of the Covenant; the Indiana Jones
movie's action takes place too early.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:09:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:09:42 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKELACEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
>Most Traveller parties need a full time lawyer - but how many
>have you seen with one?

I ran a campaign some years ago where the PCs got arrested and their ship
impounded by the local authorities when they entered orbit around Moughas.
The Fifth Frontier War had started, and the Vargr Gireel Fleet had captured
Moughas, but was using the local government structure while it plundered
whatever it could.  The local legal system called for the accused to be
represented by counsel, and required a choice of counsel, so three Vargr
lawyers appeared on a split screen to pitch their services.

The PCs eventually picked the most aggressive one, who got out of his seat
and went over to each of the other two and punched them out.  They did ok
with his services, but his legal fees cost them much of the money they'd
acquired to date.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:10:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:10:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMELACEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>
>But this is the TML, and one supposes that in the 57th century, the measure
>of a sophont's fitness for a particular duty is tied to their ability to
>perform it.  One may assume that the Imperium establishes baseline
>requirements for, say an MOS, and holds to those standards regardless of
>race or gender.  This may result in a higher proportion of males in a
>particular MOS, perhaps females in another.

That's how it works in my Traveller universe.  Of course, we add "species"
to "regardless of race [i.e., subspecies] or gender."

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:11:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:11:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOELACEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)

>But I'm certainly no expert on gender differences.

To paraphrase my late father, no man is.

--Glenn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:11:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:11:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <a8.f784519.2a7cbf66@aol.com>

 >> A good point worthy of discussion.  I have commerce raiders, but I
 envision
 >> them as travelling in a single mass, outrunning and dodging attempts by
 >> serious fleet elements to pursue them (unless, of course, the raiders
 blunder
 >> into them).  Small patrols and escorts are never going to be able to deal
 >> with such a herd, while major patrols and escorts deployed everywhere will
 >> seriously impact the size of the remaining core fleet.
 >
 >If you spread out a mix of powerful and less powerful commerce raiders,
 >you'll pull more fleet assets away. That's half the point.

I'll be concentrating on the core fleet of the enemy.  If I defeat them, then 
I'll round up the commerce raiders at leisure.  That's my whole point.

 >>How serious is the
 >> trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took place because the small
island
 >> of England was not self-sufficient in either agricultural or industrial
 >> matters, but I don't think this situation will arise on many _planets_.
 >
 >It'll impact revenue, which hurts over time. More importantly, it hurts
 >civilian morale and causes demands for proteciton. And you can damage the
 >logistics train - if the enemy is missile-heavy, he has to get them to the
 >battle area...

Good points all.  Sure you'll have revenue losses -- can you imagine what the 
Soviet Union's revenue losses were like? -- but if in the meantime the main 
enemy fleet is engaged and defeated then that won't matter.  "The only thing 
more expensive than a war is losing."  As for morale and demands for 
protection, the civilians will know their best chance for protection is a 
fleet victory.  One can point to any number of instances where stubborn 
insistence on city protection contrary to military necessity has caused the 
defeat of an army.  Further, the loudest calls for protection will be from 
those worlds capable of building their own local defense forces.  As for the 
missiles, yes, that's a major problem if you are missile-heavy, and I think 
the best way to solve it is to have large stocks on hand in protected bases 
before the war and not try to manufacture what you need during a war.

 >>If
 >> trade is truly a major issue and lifeline then a massed herd of raiders
will
 >> be crippling regardless of any other fleet elements employed.
 >
 >Until it inevitably gets squashed. Dispersed raiding works better, other
 >than for targeted strikes, say on a critical system to massacre the
 >concentration of merhcant shipping there.

It will only get squashed if it gets caught by a superior force.  If your 
opponent disperses, then dispersing yourself simply plays his game at his 
level, but staying concentrated leaves all of his dispersed elements unable 
to oppose you.  If your opponent concentrates and tries to force a major 
engagement then this will either require a huge containment fleet all out of 
proportion to the raider task force (in which case the main fleet will be 
left weakened) or a wild stroke of luck as the raiders blunder into this 
pursuing fleet.

 >Assuming he's rich enough to afford a fleet like that. Guerre de Course has
 >always been the weaker nation's option.

If you are richer than your opponent then there's little he can do.  If you 
are equal, then if you're rich enough to build a significant escort/patrol 
fleet and scatter it everywhere then he's rich enough to build an equal-value 
capital fleet and slowly march it through your scattered escorts.

 >> I don't think you can get "greater concentration of force" with "less
ships".
 >
 >I have 6 ships, you have 12. I draw 8 of your ships away with a feint, and
 >gain local superiority. You sent them all? Great. I smash your base. You
 >sent none? Well, if my recon is up to it I'll know. Next time I just smash
 >something elsewhere , maybe with pairs of my ships, while you sit tight and
 >wait for the big clash at JUtland.

And if I outfeint you?  I think you're assuming a defensive and dumb enemy, 
with you holding all the offense and recon-intelligence cards.  If you have 
six and I have twelve I'll just guard the base with six and chase you with 
the other six.

I'm about done here.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <20020802231503.19852.60096.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17arId-0004ch-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>

"Thomas Barnes" <twb3@charter.net> wrote:
 
> > 
> > You really think that a computer can be powerful enough to simulate
> > all that and yet not have safeguards to prevent death?  I would
> > imagine that it'd be just like a modern simulator: screw up and you
> > get the `shatter screen.'
> > 
> > Although it could also be used to give you a nasty shock or something
> > every time you screw up...
> > 
> 
> Not necessarily.  I was working on an F-15 trainer a few years ago and
> stepped out of the seat to reach a terminal while leaving the aircraft
> "in flight".  It took a bit longer that I thought it would, and the
> uncontrolled simulated jet ended up impacting the "earth" at Mach
> 1.something.  
> 
> The control loader on the stick modeled stick forces due to the
> accelerations of the aircraft, so in response to the massive g-loading
> of the crash, drove the stick violently aft.  It is my good fortune that
> I was not in the way of the stick when it drove aft, since it hit the
> stops hard enough to snap a stainless steel cable in the control loader.

Ouch!

I'm guessing that by TL12+ all well-made simulators will be 
indistinguishable form the real thing, except that the simulators 
don't have the fast or lingering death if you screw up.  Combine 
holography and artificial gravity and really fancy computers and 
you've got a very powerful combination that might not even be that 
expensive. I'm guessing that driver ed for grav vehicles will involve 
getting thrown into a bunch of simulations of dangerous situations 
and then getting graded on how you do.  

Fighter sims would probably involve high-g loads (in fighters where 
the accelerations are greater than the degree of compensation), 
fast turns, zig-zag dodging at high-g and all manner of stuff that 
would leave the newbies sick as a dog immediately afterwards, and 
hurting the next day.

The fun part will come of someone figures out a moderately easy 
way to get someone into a simulator while making them think they 
are getting into the real thing.  You won't be able to pull that trick 
more than once on someone unless the sims are *really* good 
(and they might be), but it would be an *excellent* test of exactly 
how well a pilot has learned his or her lessons.  



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:19:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:19:49 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
In-Reply-To: <20020802231503.19852.60096.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17arIf-0004ch-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>

ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>) wrote:

> "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> writes:
> > 
> > Personally, I find it hard to shed many tears for Hiroshima,
> > Nagasaki, or Dresden.
> 
> I dunno--the firebombing of Dresden is IMHO one of the worst war
> crimes committed by the US.  Esp. the bit about destroying emergency
> vehicles...
> 
> That no-one was ever strung up for it is a travesty.  We're supposed
> to be better than that.

Agreed.  Hiroshima and Nagasaki can at least be argued as being 
better than the alternatives (although I've heard several different 
PoVs about how exactly necessary bombing Nagasaki was).  
However, Dresden is an amazingly clear cut case.  It was an act of 
terror and vengeance easily as bad as anything the other side did 
in it's bombing of civilian targets.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com  

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:20:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Volker)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:20:36 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Names
In-Reply-To: <14d.1114a660.2a6ad884@aol.com>
References: <14d.1114a660.2a6ad884@aol.com>
Message-ID: <31100237350.20020803141400@greimann.de>

> to Texas from Illinois, in company with my father and three notarized
> documents from her two older sisters and her father attesting to her birth at 
> the date and time in question. A few hours at the county courthouse and she 
> was issued a backdated document.


Scribble, scribble:

<campaign notes>
"Need  any  documents  you  "lost"?  Go  to Desdemona, they'll get you
one. ...For a price!"
</Campaign Notes>


-- 
*** Volker Greimann * volker@greimann.de ***
******  Long live Emperor Strephon!  *******


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:25:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:25:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Taxes
Message-ID: <3D4B6830.F9B207D4@mail.cswnet.com>

>In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head tax" or does it >charge an income tax on its citizens for its Imperial Budget >requirements?  In short, if the Imperial government taxes 10% of a >Gross Planetary Product, then it would in essence be an income tax.  >If it charges a flat 500 CR per person on a planet, then it is a head >tax.  Which is it?

Depends on the system your useing.
TCS says its a head count
Striker implies, by your definition, something like an income tax
Ian Ferguson's small navies and my meduim navies uses a hybrid tax

>If the Imperium charges say, 3% of a planet's gross planetary product
>for its military taxes - this tax is on top of the local
>ruler's/government's tax.

But the Imperium doesn't do that; Canon says it charges 30% of the
military budget, not the gpp[Strikerv1.0, book2, page38, section IV,
rule 73, part B, last paragraph]. How the local ruler comes up with the
money for the budget is his/her/its business, but no matter how much
money comes in the Imperuim is getting 30%. Otherwise, the local ruler
gets met by the Happy Baseball Bat [a companion of the Happy Fun Ball;
better not to ask]. Also, if the economy gets dragged down by said local
rulers taxation, I foresee problems between he/she/it and the Imperuim.
Isn't it part of the rules of war that the Imperuim doesn't like wars
that damage the economy of the Imperuim. The 3I MIGHT view overtaxation
as a problem if it led to economic instability and slow down in economic
growth. Then again it might not, considering the large number of planets
with high gov codes and presumably high taxes in one form or another. I
think it would depend on the situation and the ability of the local
ruler...see T4s Pocket Empires for that.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <20020803025421.23615.36452.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17arTK-0005yh-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>) wrote:

> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> > 
> > But this is the TML, and one supposes that in the 57th century, the
> > measure of a sophont's fitness for a particular duty is tied to
> > their ability to perform it.  One may assume that the Imperium
> > establishes baseline requirements for, say an MOS, and holds to
> > those standards regardless of race or gender.  This may result in a
> > higher proportion of males in a particular MOS, perhaps females in
> > another.
> 
> Yep.  I've heard, for example, a theory that women might actually make
> better fighter pilots, due to endurance or soemthing like that.

More than a theory actually.  The number of women being trained 
as fighter pilots continues to climb, and there are many predictions 
that the number of female fighter pilots will surpass the number of 
male fighter pilots in not all that many years.  Women in general 
are shorter, lighter, and have better resistance to g forces (ie they 
don't black out as quickly) all of which are very useful qualities in 
modern fighter aircraft. 

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <E17arId-0004ch-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMEAMIKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of
sneadj@mindspring.com
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 10:17 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller


"Thomas Barnes" <twb3@charter.net> wrote:
 
> > 
> > You really think that a computer can be powerful enough to simulate
> > all that and yet not have safeguards to prevent death?  I would
> > imagine that it'd be just like a modern simulator: screw up and you
> > get the `shatter screen.'
> > 
> > Although it could also be used to give you a nasty shock or something
> > every time you screw up...
> > 
> 
> Not necessarily.  I was working on an F-15 trainer a few years ago and
> stepped out of the seat to reach a terminal while leaving the aircraft
> "in flight".  It took a bit longer that I thought it would, and the
> uncontrolled simulated jet ended up impacting the "earth" at Mach
> 1.something.  
> 
> The control loader on the stick modeled stick forces due to the
> accelerations of the aircraft, so in response to the massive g-loading
> of the crash, drove the stick violently aft.  It is my good fortune that
> I was not in the way of the stick when it drove aft, since it hit the
> stops hard enough to snap a stainless steel cable in the control loader.

Ouch!

I'm guessing that by TL12+ all well-made simulators will be 
indistinguishable form the real thing, except that the simulators 
don't have the fast or lingering death if you screw up.  Combine 
holography and artificial gravity and really fancy computers and 
you've got a very powerful combination that might not even be that 
expensive. I'm guessing that driver ed for grav vehicles will involve 
getting thrown into a bunch of simulations of dangerous situations 
and then getting graded on how you do.  

Fighter sims would probably involve high-g loads (in fighters where 
the accelerations are greater than the degree of compensation), 
fast turns, zig-zag dodging at high-g and all manner of stuff that 
would leave the newbies sick as a dog immediately afterwards, and 
hurting the next day.

The fun part will come of someone figures out a moderately easy 
way to get someone into a simulator while making them think they 
are getting into the real thing.  You won't be able to pull that trick 
more than once on someone unless the sims are *really* good 
(and they might be), but it would be an *excellent* test of exactly 
how well a pilot has learned his or her lessons.  


_______________________________________________

Throw in a meson communicator and you've got telepresense

jml
so that's what a Ten gee Immelman is like

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <1a1.64c8bb6.2a7cc59a@aol.com>

 >Let's turn this on its head. Can you explain how this model of yours
 >works...? How do you plan to fight a war with it?

Recall, I'm working with CT HG (the original -- I understand there is an HG2 
out?).

I put a fleet together for the Spinward Marches.  Being what it is, it is 
primarily intended to be defensive.  Most of it is stationed at Jewell, 
Efate, and Regina, with task forces at Vilis, Lunion, and Glisten.  If the 
Zhodies send their main fleet body in a straight-on attack then we'll decide 
the issue then and there.  If they send the main body on an end run by Vilis 
heading for my high-population worlds then I'll just have to try to catch 
them while sending in two or three task forces to try and blockade Cronor, 
cutting off their supplies.  If that attack succeeds then they will be forced 
to retreat -- if they ever find out.  Meanwhile I'll be attempting to engage 
their main body with my main body.  If we meet then again we'll decide the 
issue.  If they scatter to spread havoc then I'll break up into units that 
hopefully will always outnumber their groups and just continue to pursue 
them, scooping them up as I find them while also leaving some task forces on 
the border hoping to catch their isolated elements as they try to leave.  
Anyway, that's what I envision.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
In-Reply-To: <E17arIf-0004ch-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>
References: <20020802231503.19852.60096.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <E17arIf-0004ch-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <2007.64.8.3.28.1028353249.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

Even Acts of Terror may be considered as life saving...

> However, Dresden is an amazingly clear cut case.  It was an act of
> terror and vengeance easily as bad as anything the other side did  in
> it's bombing of civilian targets.

I do *NOT* condone the targetting of civilian targets.  However - it is a
fact that the targetting of civilian targets is a viable military
strategy.  MAD - Mutually Assured Destruction, is the ultimate in
terrorism in the sense that it states plainly to your enemy "Kill my
non-combatants, and I will kill yours".
  Likewise, if Dresden told Germany in no uncertain terms, that continued
  terrorist activity on its part would be met in kind by such activity on
  the Allied side - then so be it.  I will *NOT* Judge the military
  commanders of that time for the decisions made.  Any more than I would
  condemn Isreal or India for use of military force against civilian
  targets - *IF* their own civilian populations are being targetted by
  enemies of their state.  If the enemy starts off bringing a rifle to
  battle, it would be a fool who refuses to sink to his enemy's level of
  barbarity, if he continues to bring a club to the fight.  Likewise -
  barbarism is sometimes the only thing that barbaric rulers and/or
  leaders will understand.  Enough said on that topic by myself ;)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
Message-ID: <186.bc7cec0.2a7cc747@aol.com>

 >> > Why do you want fighters to be more effective?
 >>
 >> So that they can have an outside possibility of damaging Capital ships at
 >> high TL
 >
 >And again, why do you want this? Barring me swallowing some and suffering
 >some strange kind of poisoning, no amount of flies can beat me in a straight
 >fight. My feeling is that fightrers are good for screening and keeping
 >merchies in line. Big ships are for killing big ships.

Yeah.  But Traveller is an RPG, not just a pseudo-scientific wargame.  It's 
nice to be able to have a Luke Skywalker in an X-wing.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 00:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 23:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <16.231f5efa.2a7ccd90@aol.com>

 >> Will they come apart if they take 98% casualties between breakfast and 
lunch? 
 >>  That is on a level with the original post that started this discussion.
 >
 >No it wasn't, because the original post didn't specify a proportion, 
 >merely an absolute quantity.

Let's look at what the proportion would be.  70,000 ton capital ship vs 
70,000 ton carrier.  Both J4, tech 15, as per CT HG1.  The carrier will be 
carrying fighters at about 35% of its mass.  The fighters to be at all 
effective will have to be 90 tons each.  (70,000 * .35) / 90 is 272 fighters 
(if anyone says the carrier and fighters will be cheaper and therefore more 
numerous just remember the 272 model 9 computers at 140MCr a pop).  The 
original quote from the original post was "a few hundred fighters".  I'd 
think that "a few hundred" would mean between 200 and 300.  Unless there is 
some extra-ordinary reason why such losses are necessary, I don't think 
anyone is going to want to be a fighter pilot on a carrier that sends out a 
few hundred fighters and only recovers a mere handful as a matter of course 
-- if it recovers any at all, since the margin of victory will be so narrow.  
In any case, if this involves, say, 100 ships per side, then in the end there 
will be about 28 lightly-damaged cruisers left (lightly-damaged as per the 
house rule originally discussed), while the fighters will just about all be 
eliminated.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 00:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 23:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <81.1f59b1a7.2a7cd257@aol.com>

 >> How serious is the trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took
 >> place because the small island of England was not self-sufficient in
 >> either agricultural or industrial matters, but I don't think this
 >> situation will arise on many _planets_.
 >
 >Not for the planets of any meaningful military capacity, anyway.  99%
 >of the production of the Imperium comes from 10% of the planets.  The
 >combined trade of those planets with every other planet (including
 >each other) is about 0.2% of their combined economies.  That means
 >that whatever they import can't be worth much.

You say it better than I do.  Thanks.  Wanting to protect or disrupt trade is 
great, but when you're looking at a map of what is actually there then you 
start thinking, "Now wait a minute ...."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 00:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 23:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <ac.2b37fb6e.2a7cd350@aol.com>

 >Personally, my opinion is that TNE needed an apocalypse and lack of
 >trade was just an excuse.

It certainly makes for an excellent RPG adventuring environment.  Depending 
on your tastes.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 00:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 23:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
Message-ID: <151.11d6b5dc.2a7cd85d@aol.com>

 >You see, I spent most of my time in the
 >Liberal Arts when I was in school, and it did me an irrepairable brain
 >injury. Traveller is therapy for me now.

I was going to say maybe ease up on the science and just create an 
adventurable world, but I see what you mean.  That's great, keep it up!

 >does a dense
 >atmosphere hold more energy? Wouldn't it take that much more energy to
 >"move" a dense atmosphere into weather changes?

Yes, and yes.  And too, denser atmospheres will have much more kinetic energy 
when moving.  I strong breeze in a dense atmosphere will probably knock down 
anyone trying to walk in the open.  Wish I knew the math to tell you.

 >Would the world's oceans act as thermal "batteries", and if so, how would 
they  
 >affect the weather?

Yes.  Oceans are tremendous reservoirs of heat and moderators of weather.  
Land climates near oceans are always warmer in winter and cooler in summer 
than land climates far away from oceans.  When I lived in Oceanside if you 
wanted air conditioning all you had to do was open an east window and a west 
window, because all that rising hot air in the inland desert drew a constant 
cool breeze off of the ocean 24 hours a day 365 days a year.  I didn't put on 
a coat or turn on a fan or air conditioner for four years.

On the other hand you don't get big storms inland.  Oceans store lots of 
heat, and it gets transfered in currents, storms, and hurricanes.

Wish I could tell you more.  If I see anything I'll direct you to it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 01:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 00:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <82.1f5501bd.2a7cdb36@aol.com>

 >Has anyone noted the set up with regards to the number of starports that 
 >can produce starships versus those that can only builld system ships?  And 
 >to make matters worse, there aren't that many high tech star ports around

I have.  It does make a big difference, doesn't it?  "If my ships are cheaper 
I'll be able to build more of them!"  No you can't.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 01:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 00:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
Message-ID: <2cce1d2ceb69.2ceb692cce1d@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Hopper <whopper@pobox.com>
Date: Saturday, August 3, 2002 3:44 am
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship 
optimization)

> Matt, Martin,
> I agree with both points presented below.  I think fighters should 
> be more
> effective in a coordinated, massed attack than they are 
> individually.  I also
> agree that 'coordinated' is the key term.
> 
> My solution is to group fighters into a 'squadron' so that their 
> weapons can be
> combined into one battery. But to do so, the squadrom must have a 
> controlling or
> 'master' fighter.  The squadron's combined attack is treated as if 
> it is one
> battery, and uses the rating of the computer in the controlling 
> fighter with an
> additional -1 modifier.
> 
<<snips details of fighter squadron house rule>>
> 
> Role-playing never came up in relation to this, but for role-
> playing purposes I
> would have the master fighter making recommendations to the pilots 
> of the
> squadron, perhaps through a Heads Up Display.  The individual 
> pilots could
> disregard the recommendations if they were willing to accept the 
> consequences.

You could also have the pilot of the "master" fighter make a Fleet 
Tactics roll each turn, with failure resulting in a -1 to the squadron 
fire Factor.

<<snip>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 01:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 00:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <1b9.4379064.2a7cdd3a@aol.com>

 >A large system like this would have to maintain a 
 >considerable number of ships in order to defend these assets

And not only can they, they'll all be powerful SDB's.  It will take vast 
resources to assault such a world.  And when the main jump fleet hears where 
you are, they'll come running.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 01:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 00:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <2d682c2d2cdb.2d2cdb2d682c@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: sneadj@mindspring.com
Date: Saturday, August 3, 2002 8:16 am
Subject: RE: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller

<<snip>>
> 
> The fun part will come of someone figures out a moderately easy 
> way to get someone into a simulator while making them think they 
> are getting into the real thing.  You won't be able to pull that 
> trick 
> more than once on someone unless the sims are *really* good 
> (and they might be), but it would be an *excellent* test of 
> exactly 
> how well a pilot has learned his or her lessons.

Or, a'la _Ender's Game_, get them in the real thing while they're 
convinced that they're just in a simulator (and thus can't be killed).
  



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 01:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 00:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"
Message-ID: <11c.14d66d9e.2a7ce27f@aol.com>

 >>>> "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!" >>>
 >
 >Under the rules of war, we've been discussing, if an enemy intentionally
 >builds fortifications or other military structures among a civilian
 >populance, then that enemy becomes rssponsible for the safety of those
 >aforementioned civilians. If those civilians are actively and willfully
 >supporting the enemy, then they are no longer considered noncombatants. So,
 >it IS Al Quaida's fault and responsibility if the US intentionally seeks to
 >bomb a legitimate military target that Al Qaida has hidden behind a human
 >shield.

I rest my case.

"It's Milosivic's fault we bombed a convoy of farmers!"
"It's Arafat's fault we bombed that apartment building!"
"It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a convoy of inauguration representatives on 
the open road!"

If I were to act with this level of disregard even in defense of my own 
children, I'd be in jail.  McVeigh was right -- "collateral damage" covers a 
multitude of sins.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 01:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 00:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <2d53e02d6366.2d63662d53e0@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
Date: Thursday, August 1, 2002 2:39 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] sword vs shotgun

> >From: Flykiller@aol.com  
> >Subject: Re: [TML] sword vs shotgun  
> >To: tml@travellercentral.com
> >
> > >the best, and I mean the best, adventures are those that 
> > >are "two party" adventures - one party of players against 
> > >another.  The referee can never buy or write a one-party 
> > >adventure that is as tense, hilarious, or as emotional as 
> > >a "two party".

<<snip>>
> 
> It's an old idea.  And, it's a very good way to deal with 
> those in the playing group who want to be sociopaths.  The 
> referee doesn't have to kill them - the other party can try 
> their best.  In my case, however, it came out even more often 
> than not - being the "good" party doesn't make you 
> bulletproof.

On that note, I shall repost something I said on this list several years 
ago:

"I would have to say that the nastiest "monster" a group of PCs can ever 
face is...another group of PCs. Savagely bloodthirsty, hideously 
well-armed, and possessed of a certain low cunning. (Just like the first 
group of PCs.)"

This and many more fine quotes may be found on Mark Urbin's Web site:

http://www.urbin.net/EWW/sigs/rpg-sigs.html




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 01:58:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 00:58:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <39.2b0d8f9c.2a7ce6d3@aol.com>

 >A config 7, dispersed structure, ship has the
 >highest to hit target of any configuration.
 >A high agility, high computer size A or less
 >meson escort is the hardest to hit of any ship.
 >Other weapons find it hard to hit with as well.
 >Additionally, is features the lowest hull cost.

I'm afraid we've been talking two different systems.  I've been talking CT 
HG1, but everyone seems to be talking about something else.  CT HG1 only 
distinguishes between hull sizes on to-hit adjustments, not hull types.  I'm 
afraid I don't know HG2, or for that matter any of the others, and it seems 
HG1 has been deprecated.

That's what I get for jumping in.

 >Costing
 >DD price range, they threaten any capital ship scoring weapon
 >and computer hits through radiation hits and all but Critical and
 >shattered fuel hits on hits and penetrate and score interior hits.

Yeah, see in HG1 a factor 9 meson cannot penetrate any meson screen of 3 or 
higher, and any capital ship is going to have meson screen 9.

Thanks.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 02:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 01:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <a9.2b679017.2a7ce930@aol.com>

 >>  >The Germans, and
 >>  >particularly the Japanese were horribly dehumanized.  We made our 
enemies
 >>  >into monsters so then it was OK to exterminate them.
 >> 
 >> If there was any dehumanizing of the Germans and Japanese, they did it
 >> themselves through their own brutality. 
 > 
 >Um, all of them, even the children?

Our side can do no wrong.  The other side is utterly evil, in all matters, in 
all ways, at all times, in all circumstances.

"The emergency food we're dropping to the Afghans might make them sick 'cause 
they're not used to it."
"The Taliban is poisoning the food we're dropping!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 02:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 01:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
Message-ID: <2d9a852d8ef1.2d8ef12d9a85@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net>
Date: Thursday, August 1, 2002 3:32 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)

> Rob Davenport <rgd@infinet.com> wrote:
> >	Ed Wood's "Starship Troopers" 
> 
> Kenji Schwartz gave a good rant compairing ST to an Ed Wood movie.
> You can find it on my SciFi sig quote page.

Another Kenji Klassic, also from Mr. Urbin's Web site:

In certain senses, I think the PMPP [*] is the ultimate distillation of 
the Traveller spirit. Technophallocentric belloeroticism. -- Kenji 
Schwarz on the Traveller Mailing List.

Upon reading that, I realized that the phrase can be modified to be 
singable to "Supercalifragilisticexpialidocius" (or however the heck 
that damnable song's title is spelled):

Everybody now!

<sings>

"Supertechnopallocentric belloeroticism...."

</sings>

[*] For those of you just tuning in, this refers to a pelvic-mounted 
plasma gun.
 
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/sigs/rpg-sigs.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 02:13:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 01:13:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in traveller)
Message-ID: <199.acd8aa3.2a7cea81@aol.com>

 >It's an old saw that military service is extended periods of
 >boredom punctuated by short periods of stark terror.  Imagine
 >if an army used sleeper ships to move their troops around...
 >soldiers whose military service consisted of sleeping through
 >the extended periods of boredom, and only being awake for the
 >periods of stark terror.
 >
 >That kind of setup might be cheap when it came to starship
 >life support costs, but I imagine the impact on the soldiers'
 >psyches would be extreme.

Not if they were only asleep during jumps.  "Good morning, we're passing 
through Regina and the captain decided you should all spend some money there 
for a few days."  And soldiers won't be spending years on ships anyway -- 
they'll only be there when in transport.  Kind of hard to practice armored 
maneuvers on the mess deck.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 02:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 01:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] damning (OT)
Message-ID: <18c.bcc9ac6.2a7cf019@aol.com>

 >> I've seen a handful.  Offsetting this, I've seen companies where every
 single
 >> corporal  and several sergeants get busted down for sex with the female
 >> privates.  I've seen active duty females refuse orders to perform physical
 >> tasks (like dumping trash cans) and tell sergeants to their face to "get a
 >> male to do it".  I've seen females who cannot, and I mean cannot, pass
 their
 >> limited physical fitness tests, who can't do  even seven pushups, but who
 >> still remain in units.  I've seen females who cannot climb the ladder from
 >> the shaft alley to the second deck and who have to be helped.  I've seen
 >> females finish their expensive training and then promptly be discharged
 >> because they're pregnant.
 >
 >Yeah, and I've seen human beings who were skilled and competent and
 >determined and motivated and just plain better than me being kept down
 >because they were born female. You can't damn half the human race on a
 >generality.

"Damn"?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 02:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 01:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prejudice (OT)
Message-ID: <c3.26abf399.2a7cf0f5@aol.com>

 >> > Whatever benefits they bring I think are outweighed by the negatives.
 I'd
 >> > dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their
 >> > traditional roles of nurse and clerk.  If the US military is so hard-up
 for
 >> > warm bodies that it really needs females, then I say reinstitute the
 WACS and
 >> > WAVES and whatever else, with their own standards and their own chain of
 >> > command, and put them in charge of stateside facilities like hospitals
 and
 >> > supply depots and personnel offices so men are freed up for more forward
 >> > duties.
 >
 >
 >Such sweeping prejudice. I am impressed.

I don't think recognition of a general trend of experience is prejudice.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 02:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 01:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: max hull size
Message-ID: <44.23c85f34.2a7cf2bd@aol.com>

 >> >Again, I'm assuming CT.  Let's see .... at tech 12, max hull size is 
 >>199,999 
 >> 
 >>   <1 MT (USP X) per HG2, pps. 26 & 28.
 >>
 >>Sorry -- CT HG.  I don't know what HG2 does.
 >
 >  OMG - someone _uses_ HG1?! I only got a copy by accident...
 >neat read, though.

Heck, I thought that _was_ Traveller.  Guess I'm a dinosaur.

 > BTW, do the Reprints include both editions of HG?

Don't know, but I don't think so.  They're just copies of the originals, 
typos and all.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 03:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 02:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Meduim Navies
Message-ID: <d0.2aca14d8.2a7cf556@aol.com>

 >What would the Imperuim see as the maximum allowable size, maximum
 >allowable quantitative/qualitative weaponry, for a mercenary ship?

Book 4 lists an example ticket calling for a reinforced brigade with full 
equipment, so that's probably the max.  I've drawn up a troop ship with J3 
that carried a battalion, and it was 19,000 tons.  So, I'd say either four 
20,000 ton ships or one 80,000 ton one.

As for ship's weapons, I've never seen a specified limit.  Presumably major 
governments are the only ones that can afford serious ship weapons.  I'd say 
no limit on defensive weapons and that a few factor 4 laser batteries would 
not draw attention, but anything more would be a fleet action weapon and I 
wouldn't think a mercenary unit would be interested in fleet actions.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 03:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 02:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] max hull size
Message-ID: <3c.222acf08.2a7cf724@aol.com>

 >> Sorry -- CT HG.  I don't know what HG2 does.
 >
 >HG2 is CT Book 5: High Guard, 2nd edition.
 >
 >It was published in 1980, replacing the 1st edition published in 1979. There
 >was a series of articles in JTAS at the time on updating your version from
 >1st to 2nd to save you buying a new copy. Obviously this passed you by.
 >
 >The version in the CT Reprints is HG2.

Man, I'm messing up left and right here.  Well then I have HG2, but I'm still 
lost.  The numbers and ship specifications I'm seeing posted I don't 
understand at all.  Nothing fits the HG2 book.  Meson gun factor 9 boats that 
are threats to capital ships?  I guess no-one uses HG anymore.

Thanks.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 03:12:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 02:12:04 2002
Subject: [TML] max hull size
In-Reply-To: <3c.222acf08.2a7cf724@aol.com>
References: <3c.222acf08.2a7cf724@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4382.64.8.3.28.1028365894.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

> Man, I'm messing up left and right here.  Well then I have HG2, but I'm
> still  lost.  The numbers and ship specifications I'm seeing posted I
> don't  understand at all.  Nothing fits the HG2 book.  Meson gun factor
> 9 boats that  are threats to capital ships?  I guess no-one uses HG
> anymore.

>From my memory: you can have meson and partical accellerator bays as 100
ton and 50 ton bays.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 03:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 02:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <18f.bcbf05f.2a7cf8de@aol.com>

 >I am laughing too hard to issue the requisite command.

I'm sure Karen Hultgreen laughed too.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 03:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 02:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <120.13e4a72a.2a7cf985@aol.com>

 >Most Traveller parties need a full time lawyer - but how many 
 >have you seen with one?

But since the Imperium does not concern itself with local laws, then how much 
good would a lawyer do in a party that travelled from world to world?  He 
would be just as ignorant of local laws as the party.  In fact, he might get 
them into even more trouble.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 03:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Sat Aug  3 02:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Pilots of the Future (was: warship optimization)
In-Reply-To: <20020803083703.29055.32859.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentr
 al.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020803020158.009f6810@mailhost.efn.org>

On Fri, 2 Aug 2002 22:27:48 -0700, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:

>More than a theory actually.  The number of women being trained
>as fighter pilots continues to climb, and there are many predictions
>that the number of female fighter pilots will surpass the number of
>male fighter pilots in not all that many years.

Just in time, some would say, for teleoperated drones to make the whole 
profession obsolete.  There's already quite a bit of "Captain Kirk vs. M-5" 
bluster going back and forth, with the pilots shouting the loudest; they 
already dread Predator duty, which is mostly sitting in a trailer watching 
camera feeds that might as well be simulator screens.  They claim that a 
few weeks of this can dull their edge.  Most of them are smart enough to 
see where the trend inevitably leads... never being able to climb into a 
real plane and put their gonads on the line again.

(And if you think the females are any less macho than the males, you 
haven't heard the old axiom about having to work twice as hard just to make 
the grade.  In fact, the new face of feminism seems to be about proving 
that women can be every bit as stupid and self-destructive as men -- check 
out the rise of female binge drinking on campuses nationwide.)


>   Women in general
>are shorter, lighter, and have better resistance to g forces (ie they
>don't black out as quickly) all of which are very useful qualities in
>modern fighter aircraft.

Of course, if we do go to an all-drone force, different qualities will be 
selected for.  Like being good at video games... which brings us back to 
the start of this sub-thread, doesn't it?



--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 03:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 02:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <40.21b2d6f0.2a7cfea7@aol.com>

 >And I daresay that if we have women serving in full combat capacity
 >under the regimes of either seperate standards (i.e. where they must
 >not meet the same standards as men) or reduced standards (e.g. I
 >understand that two-man stretcher teams are now four or more), we will
 >see plenty of human beings who die miserably because their comrades
 >are not up to the task.

Actually, I'll bet we won't.  The military is talking now about how much 
future warfare will be on the level of special ops, utilizing local troops 
and only sending in special forces to coordinate bomb strikes, like in 
Afghanistan.

Army?  What army?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 03:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 02:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Pilots of the Future (was: warship optimization)
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020803020158.009f6810@mailhost.efn.org>
Message-ID: <002e01c23ad4$cbcbbd00$1d17bd50@martinjd>

> Of course, if we do go to an all-drone force, different qualities will be 
> selected for.  Like being good at video games... which brings us back to 
> the start of this sub-thread, doesn't it?

Main problem with drones is the ECM/ECCM/Jamming seesaw. 

And control lags over combat distances in space, OC.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 03:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 02:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] prejudice (OT)
References: <c3.26abf399.2a7cf0f5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003b01c23ad5$b1af5ca0$1d17bd50@martinjd>

>  I'd
>  >> > dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their
>  >> > traditional roles of nurse and clerk.

>I don't think recognition of a general trend of experience is prejudice.

You've just stated that you'd deny every single woman who wanted to and
could be good enough, the chance to try to be what she wanted, on the basis
of your - by definition limited - experience. Maybe not prejudice, but I
don't have a word for it.

I believe in absolute standards - good enough for the combat area is the
same for everyone, and yes, more men than women are. That's reality. But if
someone is good enough and actually wants to be there, then they have the
right to be.

I have a 7stone, 5 foot woman in my self-defense class. She's not got any of
the right instincts, but she doggedly keeps on trying to learn because she
feels the need. She's small and weak, and quite honestly her capabilities
are poor for the foreseeable future. Potentially, though, she might be able
to develop real capability to protect herself., And she WANTS TO.

Should I refuse to teach her because the chances of success are slim? I
think not.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:01:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:01:06 2002
Subject: [TML] damning (OT)
References: <18c.bcc9ac6.2a7cf019@aol.com>
Message-ID: <004201c23ad6$14a70e20$1d17bd50@martinjd>

>  >
>  >Yeah, and I've seen human beings who were skilled and competent and
>  >determined and motivated and just plain better than me being kept down
>  >because they were born female. You can't damn half the human race on a
>  >generality.
>
> "Damn"?

Condemn to medicrity, to second-class citizenship, to be denied things that
they want for arbitrary reasons, despite their determination, talent and
potential.

What you seem to want to do is to set limits for people.

That's a form of damnation to me.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] System Gen Help
References: <20020802001136.17476.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000201c23ad5$0a9e8080$7400a8c0@imogen>

Paul Walker wrote:
> I am doing an extended system generation.  I rolled
> for #6 to be the max orbit.  I also rolled for 2
> captured planets.  One is in orbit 6.3 and the other
> is in 6.0
> 
> Orbit 6 and 5 are both SGG's.  4 is the mainworld and
> the habitable zone.
> 
> Is this legitimate?  Or do I need to move the captured
> planet in orbit 6.0 to somewhere else.

I don't know of any written rule to cover this (someone speak  up
if they know of one)  but  I  don't  see  a  problem  with  this.
Captured planets aren't just extra planets, they are plants  that
were added to the system after it formed.  The max orbits  number
just means max number of *normally forming* orbits (unless  we're
talking about companion stars).  And the orbit  number only tells
you the *average distance* from the star.  What I tend to do (and
would do in this case) is to give a combination of  some  or  all
of: make the orbit highly eccentric, or highly  inclined  to  the
system's orbital plane, or make it's motion retrograde,  or  give
the planet a high axial tilt.  Probably all.

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"
References: <11c.14d66d9e.2a7ce27f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <005301c23ad6$a4ab5760$1d17bd50@martinjd>

>
> I rest my case.
>
> "It's Milosivic's fault we bombed a convoy of farmers!"
> "It's Arafat's fault we bombed that apartment building!"
> "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a convoy of inauguration representatives
on
> the open road!"
>
> If I were to act with this level of disregard even in defense of my own
> children, I'd be in jail.  McVeigh was right -- "collateral damage" covers
a
> multitude of sins.

This sort of thing happens in war all the time. War is a tapestry of misery
and suffering, most of it needless.

People demand that we go to do what must be done ( or sometimes protest
about it and refuse to see why it must be done) then condemn the military
when innocents get hurt.

The answer? Learn to get along and abolish conflict.
Until then, we must accept the paradox and try to do the best we can not to
cause needless suffering. But we will, all the same.
That's why this world sucks.






From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:07:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:07:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <2cce1d2ceb69.2ceb692cce1d@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <006001c23ad7$072d8ac0$1d17bd50@martinjd>

>
>
> > Matt, Martin,
> > I agree with both points presented below.  I think fighters should
> > be more
> > effective in a coordinated, massed attack than they are
> > individually.  I also
> > agree that 'coordinated' is the key term.
> >

I'm thinking that an initial "battery" attack would be permissible, with
"friction" throws required to avoid losing cohesion and becoming just a mob
of armed gnats. Breaking off and reforming would be necessary.

You might also consider fighter control bays aboard carriers?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:08:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:08:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <82.1f5501bd.2a7cdb36@aol.com>
Message-ID: <006b01c23ad7$2b16f660$1d17bd50@martinjd>


> >Has anyone noted the set up with regards to the number of starports that
>  >can produce starships versus those that can only builld system ships?
And
>  >to make matters worse, there aren't that many high tech star ports
around
>
> I have.  It does make a big difference, doesn't it?  "If my ships are
cheaper
> I'll be able to build more of them!"  No you can't.
>

See above comment that HG/TCS does not adequately provide a realistic naval
warfare system. But it is a cool game.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:08:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:08:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <182.c122206.2a7d0578@aol.com>

 >But this is the TML, and one supposes that in the 57th century, the measure
 >of a sophont's fitness for a particular duty is tied to their ability to
 >perform it.  One may assume that the Imperium establishes baseline
 >requirements for, say an MOS, and holds to those standards regardless of
 >race or gender.  This may result in a higher proportion of males in a
 >particular MOS, perhaps females in another.

Does MOS really describe the job requirements?  Sure, anyone can sit at a 
desk and process paperwork -- but if paratroopers land nearby then I think it 
becomes clear that what your MOS is and what your actual job is are two 
different things.  Relying strictly on MOS leaves your army inflexible and 
brittle.  The marine's approach is good -- no matter what you go on to be, 
you start out as an infantryman.

And I think you'd see quite a bit of racial segregation.  For example, as I 
understand, in the old Imperial Japanese Army a man could be rejected for 
service because of too much body odor.  I'm sure a unit of mixed races would 
have many similar distracting conflicts of culture and biology.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <186.bc7cec0.2a7cc747@aol.com>
Message-ID: <007901c23ad7$ae247640$1d17bd50@martinjd>

>  >
>  >And again, why do you want this? Barring me swallowing some and
suffering
>  >some strange kind of poisoning, no amount of flies can beat me in a
straight
>  >fight. My feeling is that fightrers are good for screening and keeping
>  >merchies in line. Big ships are for killing big ships.
>
> Yeah.  But Traveller is an RPG, not just a pseudo-scientific wargame.
It's
> nice to be able to have a Luke Skywalker in an X-wing.

Well, yes. The Death Star attack was more like a one-off asymmetric attack
than a regular combat operation. I'm willing the believe (for gaming and fun
purposes) in such a one-off "we have an opportunity" operations. But not in
routine combat.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:14:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:14:09 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
Message-ID: <fc.1bc430d6.2a7d06b7@aol.com>

 >Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
 >big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.

What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other sensor systems 
you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Firearms in Vacumn
In-Reply-To: <3D43E470.DA5F22D1@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20803.011715.6z8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> 
>> In mail you write:
>> 
>> > "Robert Uhl " wrote:
>> >>
>> >> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
>> >> >
>> >> > No, but guns *have* been fired underwater (this is a somewhat
>> >> > different situation than firing one with a barrel full of water).
>> >>
>> >> Anyone here have any experience doing this?  I know that it's supposed
>> >> to work, but I've never worked up the courage or folly necessary to
>> >> play with it.  I've a lot of respect for Things What Go Boom, and I've
>> >> little desire to annoy them...
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
>> >> If your franchise is not secured by force of personal arms, you are a
>> >> subject, not a citizen.                               --H. Beam Piper
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> TML mailing list
>> >> TML@travellercentral.com
>> >> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>> >
>> > I launched a model rocket from underwater after seeing it in "The Model
>> > Roceteer" It was very
>> > impressive.
>> 
>> Do you still have any copies of The Model Rocketeer? Mine got lost a
>> long time ago :-(
>
> I think so, I'll have a look next time I'm cleaning that part of the garage. 
> Anything in particular
> or do you want that article on underwater launches?

Well, I'd like to have a set of the silly things, or at least a decent
scan of them.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:19:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:19:09 2002
Subject: [TML] missile capacities
Message-ID: <120.13e4a732.2a7d07e4@aol.com>

 >> They are too inefficient to kill, yes.  But they can still be a royal pain
 >> in the ass.  In the end though capital ships can kill them but they can't
 >> kill capital ships.  Eventually they run out of missiles.
 >
 >Only in the real world, not in HG. : )

HG says absolutely nothing about it.  Show me a hundred ton bay and a 
physical object, and I can tell you how many of those objects will fit into 
the bay.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <1a1.64c8bb6.2a7cc59a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <008601c23ad9$12eafee0$1d17bd50@martinjd>


> >Let's turn this on its head. Can you explain how this model of yours
>  >works...? How do you plan to fight a war with it?
>
> Recall, I'm working with CT HG (the original -- I understand there is an
HG2
> out?).
>
> I put a fleet together for the Spinward Marches.  Being what it is, it is
> primarily intended to be defensive.  Most of it is stationed at Jewell,
> Efate, and Regina, with task forces at Vilis, Lunion, and Glisten.  If the
> Zhodies send their main fleet body in a straight-on attack then we'll
decide
> the issue then and there.  If they send the main body on an end run by
Vilis
> heading for my high-population worlds then I'll just have to try to catch
> them while sending in two or three task forces to try and blockade Cronor,
> cutting off their supplies.  If that attack succeeds then they will be
forced
> to retreat -- if they ever find out.  Meanwhile I'll be attempting to
engage
> their main body with my main body.  If we meet then again we'll decide the
> issue.  If they scatter to spread havoc then I'll break up into units that
> hopefully will always outnumber their groups and just continue to pursue
> them, scooping them up as I find them while also leaving some task forces
on
> the border hoping to catch their isolated elements as they try to leave.
> Anyway, that's what I envision.

Okay. The Zhos have thrown large numbers of light cruisers and "merchant
raiders" (armed merchant ships posing as legitimate traffic) across the
border and are raiding lightly defended ports, shooting up your logistics
train and the Sector Duke is yelling at you that dozens of world governments
are yelling at HIM for protection. Many of these raids are by ships in the
light or even heavy cruiser class. Some sightings mention capital ships and
small task groups. They've probably got support ships out there somewhere
too.

Zho fleet elements have struck at weak targets on the border, but you don't
know it they retired afterward or are advancing.
Your intelligence is a mess of vessel reports, and while the attacks on
minor worlds are trivial from a military standpoint, those are imperial
citizens being shot up. Some border  worlds (again, soft targets) have been
assaulted by ground forces and may now be under occupation. The sector duke
wants those worlds retaken. He wants the raids stopped.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:24:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:24:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonabo Class Missile Frigate
Message-ID: <c1.24afabf6.2a7d092f@aol.com>

 Incidentally, it goes without saying that these things kill TL E- ships
 quite nicely.

TL E is very vulnerable.  The meson screens and nuke dampers are weak.

I think this is a better design:

1000 ton hull
J4
M6
Armor4
100 ton missile bay (holds 100 salvos)
etc

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Baboon Class Missile Frigate
Message-ID: <19c.6563ee4.2a7d0bfa@aol.com>

 >A trillion credits worth of these things will only mission kill one or two
 >capital ships per turn, and will suffer considerable losses in return.
 >
 >They probably don't work out as a match for capital ships, but they are
 >close enough to be useful, I suspect.

Assuming CT HG2, if you put armor 4 on them they are very difficult to deal 
with.  I've run simulations of this several times, and each time it's a draw. 
 The capital ships can kill them, but only a few at a time.  By the time 
hundreds of them are forced into the reserve you have dozens repairing their 
way out and back into the front line each turn, with a steady-state of about 
2 on-line to 1 in-reserve.  Meanwhile they sweep the capital ships of weapons 
at a steady rate.  It's close, but by the time the frigates are ready to win 
they run out of missiles.  It's curiously balanced.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:38:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:38:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <a8.f784519.2a7cbf66@aol.com>
Message-ID: <009b01c23adb$506d89c0$1d17bd50@martinjd>

>  >
>  >If you spread out a mix of powerful and less powerful commerce raiders,
>  >you'll pull more fleet assets away. That's half the point.
>
> I'll be concentrating on the core fleet of the enemy.  If I defeat them,
then
> I'll round up the commerce raiders at leisure.  That's my whole point.

Yes indeed. All we need is a decisive battle and we've won. Of course,
sometimes you can't have one. While the main fleets search for one another,
you get nibbled at, and your political will gets eroded.

> Good points all.  Sure you'll have revenue losses -- can you imagine what
the
> Soviet Union's revenue losses were like? -- but if in the meantime the
main
> enemy fleet is engaged and defeated then that won't matter.

IF. But what if the enemy uses his fleet in being as a threat, a pin, while
he crumbles at you? What if he WON'T fight that decisive battle?

>"The only thing
> more expensive than a war is losing."  As for morale and demands for
> protection, the civilians will know their best chance for protection is a
> fleet victory.

As they're bombed and shot up by a cruiser? As they hear more reports of
merchant ships and outposts killed by raiders? No they won't.

Modern war - 4th generation war - is fought in the living rooms of the
populace. Manipulating them is one of the keys to victory. Give them enough
uncountered threats, enough needless deaths, and they'll be demanding peace.


>One can point to any number of instances where stubborn
> insistence on city protection contrary to military necessity has caused
the
> defeat of an army.

And yet you have to do it sometimes. War is not purely a military matter. It
is the attempt by one state to impose its will upon the other, by military
and... other...means.

>Further, the loudest calls for protection will be from
> those worlds capable of building their own local defense forces.  As for
the
> missiles, yes, that's a major problem if you are missile-heavy, and I
think
> the best way to solve it is to have large stocks on hand in protected
bases
> before the war and not try to manufacture what you need during a war.

Procurement and budget issues. No force ever went to war with enough
ammunition. And once you move from base and fiore some missiles, you have to
get resupply. Either by goijng back to rearm, or by using vulnerable
logistics ships.

>
>  >>If
>  >> trade is truly a major issue and lifeline then a massed herd of
raiders
> will
>  >> be crippling regardless of any other fleet elements employed.
>  >
>  >Until it inevitably gets squashed. Dispersed raiding works better, other
>  >than for targeted strikes, say on a critical system to massacre the
>  >concentration of merhcant shipping there.
>
> It will only get squashed if it gets caught by a superior force.

Which will happen if there is just one target at large.

>If your
> opponent disperses, then dispersing yourself simply plays his game at his
> level, but staying concentrated leaves all of his dispersed elements
unable
> to oppose you.

You can of course partially disperse or disperse and form some big and some
small raider groups. But raiding en masse is more of a targeted strike - hit
and leave. It's not really viable as a tactic, because raider forces are by
definition inferior to fleet units, and that's what they'll face if they
hand an opportunity to the opposition.

>
>  >Assuming he's rich enough to afford a fleet like that. Guerre de Course
has
>  >always been the weaker nation's option.
>
> If you are richer than your opponent then there's little he can do.

Who won the Vietnam war again?

>If you
> are equal, then if you're rich enough to build a significant escort/patrol
> fleet and scatter it everywhere then he's rich enough to build an
equal-value
> capital fleet and slowly march it through your scattered escorts.

You're thniking of everything in terms of a mapboard and counters. I'm
discussing warfare. I already mentioned the politoical necessity to catch
raiders etc so I won't bring it up again. But I will say that finding and
catching raiders is a ship-intensive and impressively difficult task, though
if you keep at it you'll succeed. Just remember that you can't be sure where
his forces are or what they're doing to you while you're marching through
his escorts.

>
>  >> I don't think you can get "greater concentration of force" with "less
> ships".
>  >
>  >I have 6 ships, you have 12. I draw 8 of your ships away with a feint,
and
>  >gain local superiority. You sent them all? Great. I smash your base. You
>  >sent none? Well, if my recon is up to it I'll know. Next time I just
smash
>  >something elsewhere , maybe with pairs of my ships, while you sit tight
and
>  >wait for the big clash at JUtland.
>
> And if I outfeint you?  I think you're assuming a defensive and dumb
enemy,
> with you holding all the offense and recon-intelligence cards.  If you
have
> six and I have twelve I'll just guard the base with six and chase you with
> the other six.
>
> I'm about done here.

The feint/outfeint is one of the risks of war. I may be willing to fight
your six with mine, and trust to my ships and crews to win it for me - this
sort of writing-down of the enemy at the best odds you can get was German
High Seas Fleet policy in WWI.

As to a dumb enemy... fair comment. I've heard the "enemy" make a number of
sweeping pronounbcements of the "oh, I'd just" that make me confident that
once reality intruded, friction would render this enemy less capable than he
thinks.





From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:39:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:39:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIELACEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <00a601c23adb$79171580$1d17bd50@martinjd>

> >From: cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng)
> >
> >Even today, I am still amazed just how lucky the Germans were.  Even with
> >all their planning, they still could not have predicted the good fortune
> >they actually got.
>
> Possible explanations for this run of luck:
>
> 1)

There was a good deception plan, and some excellent planning regarding
timing and execution. They made an opportunity to get lucky...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <3.0.5.16.20020802200157.46a789a6@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <00c701c23adb$e7d770a0$1d17bd50@martinjd>

> The 50s ended, my dear sir.  As long as they can do the job.  Oh, and an
> NCO having sex with a solider in the same chain of command is a violation
> of the UCMJ.  They deserved to get busted.
> -- 

Yeah! All hail Doug. Doug is Wise. 
For a 7 year-old penguin-obsessive....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <20020802231503.19852.60096.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <3D4B3637.35538EB8@mailbag.com>
Message-ID: <00e801c23adc$47c368c0$1d17bd50@martinjd>

> 
> Not quite Clint, yet even Clint had some intellegent moments.
.


You mean Clif!

Hey, everyone, he invoked Clif!

Clif has been Invoked!


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <112.1523c9f7.2a7c50e1@aol.com><014a01c23a78$a159d220$5d0bbd50@martinjd> <m3znw4epbc.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <00f701c23adc$73358a60$1d17bd50@martinjd>

> And I daresay that if we have women serving in full combat capacity
> under the regimes of either seperate standards (i.e. where they must
> not meet the same standards as men) or reduced standards (e.g. I
> understand that two-man stretcher teams are now four or more), we will
> see plenty of human beings who die miserably because their comrades
> are not up to the task.
>
> And I hardly think that shielding from death and destruction is
> `damning.'  Rather a nice thing to do, as a matter of fact.

Quite. We must have absolute standards for everyone, but those who make the
grade should be allowed to serve.

The present system of differential requirements is just plain daft.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
References: <fc.1bc430d6.2a7d06b7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <011801c23adc$bdd0f780$1d17bd50@martinjd>

> >Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
>  >big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.
>
> What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other sensor
systems
> you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?


Mines, even of a CAPTOR type, don't have much area coverage. You'd need a
lot of them to cover an area, though orbits and other choke points are a
possibility.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 05:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 04:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
Message-ID: <3015092fe19a.2fe19a301509@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Flykiller@aol.com
Date: Saturday, August 3, 2002 1:13 pm
Subject: [TML] mines

> >Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
> >big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.
> 
> What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other 
> sensor systems 
> you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?

I recommend you read Bruce Alan Macintosh's Definitive Sensor Rules for 
T4/FF&S2 for a complete discussion of sensors.  Passive sensors IRL 
would have ranges in space significanly better than those of active 
sensors such as radar.

http://traveller.mu.org/house/sensor.rules.html



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 05:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 04:16:03 2002
Subject: C**f (was: Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller)
Message-ID: <30360530300f.30300f303605@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: MJ Dougherty <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Date: Saturday, August 3, 2002 1:54 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller

> > 
> > Not quite Clint, yet even Clint had some intellegent moments.
> .
> 
> 
> You mean Clif!
> 
> Hey, everyone, he invoked Clif!
> 
> Clif has been Invoked!

Is that the TML equivalent of Godwin's Law?  ;-)

http://www.godwinslaw.com/

And yes, I remember the Days of C**f.... :-P

I refer the newcomers to the list to the fourth Ditzie pic on Jesse 
DeGraff's page:

http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/ditzie.htm


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 05:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 04:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Acceptable losses
Message-ID: <3073a4307395.3073953073a4@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: MJ Dougherty <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Date: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 6:45 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Acceptable losses

> 
> > Brian Caball says
> > >What about the whole "over the top" attitude of WWI? Pouring
> > >thousands of lives into suicidal charges for far less gain
> >
> > Yes, for a gain of a few yards, or no gain at all.
> >
> > Some people I know do *not* believe the casualty figures from
> > WW I.  They insist that it's simply not possible.
> >
> > I keep pointing out references in history books to whole
> > regiments being gunned down by machine gun fire.  They insist
> > that no men would do such a thing, especially if they had
> > seen it done before
> 
> See previous comment about French refusal to continue this way, at 
> leastuntil confidence in the gain was restored....

Then there's the pair of quotes that begin one chapter of T.R. 
Fehrenbach's _This Kind of War: A Study In Unpreparedness_ (quoted from 
memory):

"The capture of this hill is worth ten thousand men!" - French general 
on the Western Front during WW I
"Generous bastard, isn't he?" - The commander of the lead assault 
battalion




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 05:21:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 04:21:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Transporters and Tractor Beams
In-Reply-To: <3D446DE8.9002.D95DFD@localhost>
Message-ID: <20803.035628.8c6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On 28 Jul 2002 at 2:22, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> In mail you write:
>> 
>> > Well, I was thinking, if the Imperium were to invent (or
>> > retro-engineer) them and make them available on their ships. I take
>> > your point on size, I was thinking about them being Trek-sized I
>> > guess.  I know a Trek transporter extends above and below the
>> > occupiable deck some way so they'd be several tons in displacement
>> > and would probably require a good old suck on the power plant so they
>> > would probably be a no-no for player sized ships anyway.
>> 
>> Remember, Voyager and DS-9 had them in *runabouts*. 
>> 
>> And frankly, I agree with Niven's comments in his essay "the Theory and
>> Practice of Teleportation".
>> 
>> A single-ended teleport device (ie you only need equipment at one end)
>> is the recipe for a *very* short war.
>
> There was an A. C. Clarke short story about this. The Martians put a 
> nuke-armed ship over each major city on Earth to 'encourage' our co-
> operation. This merely encouraged the development of a teleportation 
> system. After the bombs were sent through they sent people to Mars to 
> have a look. IIRC the main demand was for archaeologists to sifts 
> through the ruins.

Actually, that was Clarke's *first* published story.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 05:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 04:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <39.2b0d8fbb.2a7d17c6@aol.com>

 >>Whatever benefits they bring I think are outweighed by the negatives.  I'd 
 >>dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their 
 >>traditional roles of nurse and clerk.
 >
 >I knew many excellent female soldiers, who pulled their weight and then
 >some.

I've known several too.  One particular medic and a particularly effective 
battalion XO and one hard little DI come to mind.  But the majority of the 
one's I've met were passive and weak or simply -- well, like most of you feel 
about me.  Some were flatly disobedient, and no-one would touch them because 
they were female.  Many were flatly unqualified physically, but they were 
female and so were kept.  I was, and am, bottom of the barrel physically, and 
I always had great difficulty passing any of the PT tests, but I could run 
circles around the vast majority of the females I've seen, no exaggeration.  
Oh I helped them, I encouraged them.  As a sergeant it was my job.  "Come on, 
you can do it!  Get yourself up!" on her sixth and last needed push-up.   She 
couldn't do it.  The (male) DI's gathered round her, and marked her record as 
passing, and she moved happily along.  Running alongside another who's about 
to fail her 24 minute PT:  "I'm dying!"  "You are _not_ going to die, no 
matter how much it hurts.  Now there's an injured man up there, you are his 
only hope, keep going!  C'mon c'mon c'mon!"  She passed, crawling over the 
line at the last second.  But I think Karen Hultgreen is at the end of this 
road.  I don't think an army or a navy needs this, I don't think a nation's 
defense needs this.  And that's not damning women, and that's not prejudice.

 >I also saw many male soldiers who whined and always seemed to be on
profile.

Many?  I saw a small handful -- in boot camp.  None of them passed.  Outside 
of that, it was just normal morale problems.  My first reserve unit was top 
notch, the navy men complained but were reliable and tough, and my next 
reserve unit seemed to have nothing but capable people (except for a few 
opportunistic bureaucrats).  I can't speak to where you were, but I've been 
to some places and seen some environments, and I can't say I've seen "many" 
male whiners or sick-bay commandos.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 05:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Aug  3 04:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lawyers
Message-ID: <20020803114546.E36724505@mo130uhou.palm.net>

n Space  
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain ; boundary="----=_Part_14584_6132357.1028375146935"
X-Mailer: smtp

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:
[snip]
>Most Traveller parties need a full time lawyer - but how many  
>have you seen with one?  

Even Doc Savage kept a lawyer in his group. :-)
Useful for the high Admin skills too...

----------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 05:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 04:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes
Message-ID: <68.23ff06b1.2a7d1d9d@aol.com>

 In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head tax" or does it charge
 an income tax on its citizens for its Imperial Budget requirements?  In
 short, if the Imperial government taxes 10% of a Gross Planetary Product,
 then it would in essence be an income tax.  If it charges a flat 500 CR
 per person on a planet, then it is a head tax.  Which is it?

Either way, you can't build a fleet that expends all of your budget.

Sales tax.  Not everyone will be able to pay a head tax, and chasing down 
everyone would be tedious.  A sales tax on large fixed would be more 
efficient -- they can't hide, and everyone winds up paying through higher 
prices anyway.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 05:59:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 04:59:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Taxes
Message-ID: <85.1f38e034.2a7d1f78@aol.com>

 >TCS says its a head count

Actually, it doesn't.  It says "... ; Cr500 is the amount of naval tax paid 
by the average citizen ; ..."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith Mormon minion of Arioch)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes
References: <68.23ff06b1.2a7d1d9d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <01ee01c23ae6$45115c90$6f7ba8c0@kenneith93j41k>

I would say the imperium levees a tax on a system and it is up to the system
to figure out how to pay it. We need you to give us 1.5 b more credits, the
imperium doesn't care how you raise the funds as long as they get their
money, just as I am sure their are many local government who blame the
imperium for the high taxes the people pay but in reality it goes to their
own pockets.
ken

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comics
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you
http://www.geocities.com/J_Elric_Smith/Index.html
----- Original Message -----
From: <Flykiller@aol.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 7:50 AM
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes


> In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head tax" or does it charge
>  an income tax on its citizens for its Imperial Budget requirements?  In
>  short, if the Imperial government taxes 10% of a Gross Planetary Product,
>  then it would in essence be an income tax.  If it charges a flat 500 CR
>  per person on a planet, then it is a head tax.  Which is it?
>
> Either way, you can't build a fleet that expends all of your budget.
>
> Sales tax.  Not everyone will be able to pay a head tax, and chasing down
> everyone would be tedious.  A sales tax on large fixed would be more
> efficient -- they can't hide, and everyone winds up paying through higher
> prices anyway.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208021045440.12501-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <3D4BC838.3C66EE32@mindspring.com>

Azalais Malfoy wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 2 Aug 2002, Hurrel, Brian wrote:
> 
> >  >The Germans, and
> >  >particularly the Japanese were horribly dehumanized.  We made our enemies
> >  >into monsters so then it was OK to exterminate them.
> >
> > If there was any dehumanizing of the Germans and Japanese, they did it
> > themselves through their own brutality.
> 
> Um, all of them, even the children?
<Snip> 
> Kiri

Children can be particularly cruel. Seeing a crowd of 'redneck' children (~8 yo) calling a black
child Nigger and attacking that child with rocks cured me of the 'children are innocent' belief.
While I believe its true they learned this from their parents, it doesn't change anything from the
black childs perspective. And without some life changing experience, they are likely to grow up like
my wifes cousin and carry a 'nigger skinning knife'. 


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:14:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:14:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: troll optimization on the TML
Message-ID: <memo.572868@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <200208030048.LYB01066@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
> Mex, you need to have Fly run around the parade ground until 
> you get tired...

Now THERE's a Good Idea :-)

"Flykiller, front and centre!"

Mexal.
formerly Sergeant, 22nd (Cheshire) Regiment, British Army.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:14:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:14:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <memo.572869@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <B97089CA.67857%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
> But this is the TML, and one supposes that in the 57th century, the 
> measure
> of a sophont's fitness for a particular duty is tied to their ability to
> perform it.  One may assume that the Imperium establishes baseline
> requirements for, say an MOS, and holds to those standards regardless of
> race or gender.  This may result in a higher proportion of males in a
> particular MOS, perhaps females in another.

Indeed, that is how it should be. If a task demands physical strength or 
endurance, then you pick people with those qualitities. If the task 
requires mental agility or specific academic training, you chose someone 
who has it (or, in the case of training, who has the base ability to 
benefit from being given that training, if you have the time!).

Some things you can work around. For example, I am intolerant of cold. By 
now, I am very good at keeping myself warm! Surprised my students last 
winter, I never appeared chilly, while they were all huddled in their 
overcoats first thing on Mondays in an outlying hut that isn't heated. But 
female teachers who wear long flowing skirts can hide a multitude of 
things (like long underwear!!!) :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:15:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:15:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <memo.572870@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020802195559.46a76b08@pop.mindspring.com>
To answer your questions.

> >Me! Me! Pick me!
> 
> 1. Are you nuts?

Yes.

> 2. Really nuts?

Yes. Do I have to repeat myself?

> 3. Can you lie perfectly still while an enemy soldier urinates on you?

You think I want to move around?
 
> 4. As in #4, but it is a National Guardsman during a training mission.

And?

> 5. Do you stand and remove your hat when you hear GnySgt Carlos Hathcock
> mentioned?

Of course, don't you?

> 6. Do you believe in your heart of hearts that there is no such thing as
> friendly artillery?

Yes.
 
> 7. When walking in open areas, do you automatically check sight lines 
> and
> exfil routes?

Naturally. Doesn't everyone?
 
> 8. Do you refer to your wife as your spotter?

Nope. I don't refer to him as my wife :-)

> 9. Do you/Did you make every target at 300 meters but miss the 50 meter 
> ones?

Well, I usually hit both sets...

> 10. We mean it, are you *really* nuts?

You haven't noticed yet?

> If you answered yes to all these questions, you might have what it 
> takes.
> Just send Cr 20 and 10 7.62mm shell casings to:
> 
> Sniping for Dummies
> c/o ACQ Weapons
> Box 26, Gridlore Complex
> Lunion Up #3
> Lunion/Lunion/Spinward Marches

Mexal (not sniper-trained - in the British Army they only accept right 
handers... Grrr.)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:16:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:16:40 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes
Message-ID: <memo.572871@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <4957.64.8.3.28.1028349006.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
IMTU, the Imperium taxes its member planets. How that planet chooses to 
raise the money to meet the Imperial tax bill is up to them.

Most just hike their own income tax a fraction of a percent. 

Some, especially those who are lukewarm about their membership, charge a 
separate 'Imperial Tax' to make the point that people are being charged 
for the privilege.

Some levy the tax on what they perceive as being the benefits of belonging 
to the Imperium, such as interstellar trade.

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <39.2b0d8fbb.2a7d17c6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001401c23ae8$dcdeae40$0905bd50@martinjd>

> circles around the vast majority of the females I've seen, no
exaggeration.

On the flip side, two of my friends (female friends) are more determined and
in absolute terms more capable than half the men in our martial arts class.
They're better than many who hold higher grades. They'd be barred under your
rules.

>that's not damning women, and that's not prejudice.

Deciding the fate of half the human race - pre-judging their capabilities -
becuase of gender. Nah, that's notuing like prejudice.

Of course, the poor dears can't be expected to understand politics, manage
an estate or run a business either. Any you know? they couldn't do it. Not
until someone let them try.





From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:19:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:19:08 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208021045440.12501-100000@shell.tsoft.com> <3D4BC838.3C66EE32@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <002901c23ae9$3da4d9c0$0905bd50@martinjd>

>
> Children can be particularly cruel. Seeing a crowd of 'redneck' children
(~8 yo) calling a black
> child Nigger and attacking that child with rocks cured me of the 'children
are innocent' belief.
> While I believe its true they learned this from their parents, it doesn't
change anything from the
> black childs perspective. And without some life changing experience, they
are likely to grow up like
> my wifes cousin and carry a 'nigger skinning knife'.

They can. OC, it's easy to be cruel to someone you've dehumanized, or
watched your parents dehumanize.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:26:02 2002
Subject: JTAS Contest (was: Re: [TML] warship optimization in traveller)
References: <20020802182504.13132.61928.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <3D4AE7C4.85DCBD6E@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <3D4BCB8A.4E223775@mindspring.com>

David Shayne wrote:
> 
> > Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 20:07:38 +0300
> > From: john.groth@us.army.mil
<snip>
> >
> > [**] For those who would like to participate, just go to the
> > Starship/Vehicle Design discussion board on JTAS.  Not a subscriber?
> > Why not?  It's only $15 US per two years for biweekly issues and access
> > to archives, discussion boards and Brubek's chat room.  [And if you
> > mention that aurictech referred you, I get a free month added to _my_
> > subscription! ;-)]
> 
> Ignore this blatant self promotion and tell them davidshayne sent you.
> 
> :)
> 
> > http://jtas.sjgames.com/subscribe/

No, no. Tell them Alan Spik sent you. I'll name a ship in Glistens 100th Fleet after you. Remember
you heard that offer here first. ;p


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:27:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:27:04 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
Message-ID: <004301c23aea$9c802fc0$0905bd50@martinjd>

Just a reminder that there's stuff on the Citizens website.


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-to-the-Masses
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <004901c23aea$d61edba0$0905bd50@martinjd>

Go take a look at CotI, under "my fellow Citizens", for something
interesting.


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-to-the-Masses
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:29:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:29:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <001401c23ae8$dcdeae40$0905bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3D4C752C.26063.37AF39@localhost>

On 3 Aug 2002, at 13:25, MJ Dougherty wrote:

> Of course, the poor dears can't be expected to understand politics, manage an
> estate or run a business either. Any you know? they couldn't do it. Not until
> someone let them try.

"Women have a sort "decorative" function, rather like teapots; and you 
wouldn't expect a teapot to go around making decisions now would you?"

[Can anyone place the quote?]

ObTrav: Not a sausage that I can see.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:31:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:31:05 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <004f01c23aea$fc955ac0$0905bd50@martinjd>

also see http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/writing.html


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-to-the-Masses
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <112.1523c9f7.2a7c50e1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4BCDB5.17057FCA@mindspring.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> 
>  >In the active service I've know many fine female sailors who were competent
>  >technicians and fine seaman. And more than a few who were more competent
>  >leaders than many of the critics who bemoaned the posting of woman to ships.
> 
> I've seen a handful.  Offsetting this, I've seen companies where every single
> corporal  and several sergeants get busted down for sex with the female
> privates.  I've seen active duty females refuse orders to perform physical
> tasks (like dumping trash cans) and tell sergeants to their face to "get a
> male to do it".  I've seen females who cannot, and I mean cannot, pass their
> limited physical fitness tests, who can't do  even seven pushups, but who
> still remain in units.  I've seen females who cannot climb the ladder from
> the shaft alley to the second deck and who have to be helped.  I've seen
> females finish their expensive training and then promptly be discharged
> because they're pregnant.
> 
> Whatever benefits they bring I think are outweighed by the negatives.  I'd
> dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their
> traditional roles of nurse and clerk.  If the US military is so hard-up for
> warm bodies that it really needs females, then I say reinstitute the WACS and
> WAVES and whatever else, with their own standards and their own chain of
> command, and put them in charge of stateside facilities like hospitals and
> supply depots and personnel offices so men are freed up for more forward
> duties.

While seeing some of the same things in the early 80's, I saw very dedicated and professional women
also.
I think the real fix would be for the Sgt/PO. to issue a report chit on any female who refused an
order. The 'one' women in my shop who tried this on me wound up with 15 days extra duty and an
extreme hatred of me. But she didn't try it again in my presence. Of course she didn't offer sex to
get out of work. ;p Maybe being in the RP had something to do with it.

-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prejudice (OT)
Message-ID: <116.14e786df.2a7d2ad1@aol.com>

 >>  I'd
 >>  >> > dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their
 >>  >> > traditional roles of nurse and clerk.
 >
 >>I don't think recognition of a general trend of experience is prejudice.
 >
 >You've just stated that you'd deny every single woman who wanted to and
 >could be good enough, the chance to try to be what she wanted, on the basis
 >of your - by definition limited - experience. Maybe not prejudice, but I
 >don't have a word for it.

I'm not the only one with this limited experience.  But I don't have a word 
for it either.  

One finds precisely this same discrimination against 40 year olds.  Some can 
handle it, sure, but 40 year olds can't join because enough of them have 
sufficient problems that it's just not worth it to the army to sort through 
it.  One finds similar discrimination against prior-service -- they do their 
best to keep you out, I know from personal experience, and if you do get back 
in you get _no_ breaks.  I don't have a problem with either form of 
discrimination because I know each deals with a certain problem set, and I'm 
saying that a similar sort of problem set exists in females in the military. 
Does this damn 40 year olds?  Does this damn women?

 >I believe in absolute standards - good enough for the combat area is the
 >same for everyone, and yes, more men than women are. That's reality. But if
 >someone is good enough and actually wants to be there, then they have the
 >right to be.

There is no right to be in the military.

 >I have a 7stone, 5 foot woman in my self-defense class. She's not got any of
 >the right instincts, but she doggedly keeps on trying to learn because she
 >feels the need. She's small and weak, and quite honestly her capabilities
 >are poor for the foreseeable future. Potentially, though, she might be able
 >to develop real capability to protect herself., And she WANTS TO.
 >
 >Should I refuse to teach her because the chances of success are slim? I
 >think not.

And good heavens, I agree.  But joining the army is not the same.  The army 
needs people it can definitely train now, that it can depend on to be able to 
do certain things now, and that are tough enough to get it done now.  Most 
women don't meet some of those criteria, and bringing in large numbers of 
them in the hope that a few will rise to what is required is the same as 
bringing in a large number of 40 year olds in the hope that some of them will 
rise to what is required.  Whatever the gain here and there, the effort 
overall is counter-productive.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:49:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:49:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Meduim Navies
References: <3D4B1F7E.736A3F94@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3D4BD0E3.F1507CBD@mindspring.com>

Roseberry wrote:
> 
> This may have gotten lost in my last post and the minor flame spat
> going on, so I'll throw it out again and see if anyone bites.
> 
> What would the Imperuim see as the maximum allowable size, maximum
> allowable quantitative/qualitative weaponry, for a mercenary ship?
> 
> Presumabley they would frown on paws and meson guns, but would they
> allow big bay weapons?
> 
IMTU spinal mounts of any type and meson bays are in the same class 'weapons of mass destruction'
That said, registered mercenary units are able to get other types of bay weapons, as are papered
privateers. 


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <fc.1bc430d6.2a7d06b7@aol.com>
References: <fc.1bc430d6.2a7d06b7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020803224859.A16270@freeman.little-possums.net>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
>  >Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
>  >big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.
> 
> What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other sensor systems 
> you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?

Well, the problem is that even if you have literally thousands of
them, the nearest one will likely pass tens of thousands of kilometres
from the target.  So they need pretty good sensors, which means
significant cost and size.

Worse still, we're talking about insystem relative speeds which are
often on the order of megametres per second.  In a typical Traveller
space combat sequence, the ship gets a million kilometres away during
the combat round in which it is detected.  No mine can mount a direct
fire weapon with that range, so it has to power up some extreme
thrusters and play tag, or launch a missile which has thrusters.  More
cost and size.

At thirty gees, it can catch the ship in about two hours.  That sort
of endurance needs a damn good power source and possibly fuel, adding
yet more cost and size.

Unfortunately, it is also radiating a bucketload of power via its
thrusters, making it pretty easy to spot and subsequently shoot with
any basic point-defense the target might have.  It better have some
defensive features like armour or sandcasters, as well as a pretty
good agility.  And a good computer.  More cost and size.


By this point, you're talking about something that bears more
resemblance to an autonomous fighter than a mine.  Almost certainly
not something that you can scatter by the thousands in the hope that a
few might be able to hit something one day.

It could be done very effectively in GURPS, but I all the easy ways I
can think of use technology forbidden in the standard GURPS Traveller
universe.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 07:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 06:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] prejudice (OT)
References: <116.14e786df.2a7d2ad1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <009801c23af1$c17b2e40$0905bd50@martinjd>

> Does this damn 40 year olds?  Does this damn women?

You said you'd do it. I felt strongly enough that you shouldn't that I used
that word.

>
>  >I believe in absolute standards - good enough for the combat area is the
>  >same for everyone, and yes, more men than women are. That's reality. But
if
>  >someone is good enough and actually wants to be there, then they have
the
>  >right to be.
>
> There is no right to be in the military.

Okay. "I believe that people have the basic right to self-determination. If
the military exists and some people want to be in it, they have the right to
try to meet its absolute standards and if they do, to be accepted. IE the
right not to be debarred from service on the grounds of a generalization."

Is that better?


>
> And good heavens, I agree.  But joining the army is not the same.  The
army
> needs people it can definitely train now, that it can depend on to be able
to
> do certain things now, and that are tough enough to get it done now.  Most
> women don't meet some of those criteria, and bringing in large numbers of
> them in the hope that a few will rise to what is required is the same as
> bringing in a large number of 40 year olds in the hope that some of them
will
> rise to what is required.  Whatever the gain here and there, the effort
> overall is counter-productive.

I don't really disagree. But you said you're remove all of them and their
right to try to be what they want. I can't agree with that. I want effective
people in the military and anyone who isn't should be washed out. But I do
not belive that you can simply generalize a segment of the populace out of
the military, becuase I know that at least a proportion of them will be good
enough.

I notice that you're "done here" about the fleet thing. From where I'm
sitting, that seems to mean you've dismissed all the arguments I raised and
decided that you don't need to think about them. You still haven't
adequately explained what you mean to do about an enemy that won't give you
that pre-arranged setpiece. Or in any other "real war" situation either.

In fact, all you've actually said is "there will be a set-piece and I will
win it. All else is trivial".
Nice theory. Doesn't work, but it's nice.







From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 07:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 06:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Firearms in Vacumn
References: <20803.011715.6z8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3D4BD8C7.43D0D0AA@mindspring.com>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
>
> >>
> >> Do you still have any copies of The Model Rocketeer? Mine got lost a
> >> long time ago :-(
> >
> > I think so, I'll have a look next time I'm cleaning that part of the garage.
> > Anything in particular
> > or do you want that article on underwater launches?
> 
> Well, I'd like to have a set of the silly things, or at least a decent
> scan of them.
> 

Leonard, I don't mind scanning a few articles, but we're talking YEARS of issues(14 IIRC). I don't
have the time to scan them all, nor the inclination to give them up. I will however look for that
article.

-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 07:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 06:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"
References: <11c.14d66d9e.2a7ce27f@aol.com> <005301c23ad6$a4ab5760$1d17bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3D4BD9A0.DAF7946B@mindspring.com>

MJ Dougherty wrote:> 
> This sort of thing happens in war all the time. War is a tapestry of misery
> and suffering, most of it needless.
> 
> People demand that we go to do what must be done ( or sometimes protest
> about it and refuse to see why it must be done) then condemn the military
> when innocents get hurt.
> 
> The answer? Learn to get along and abolish conflict.
> Until then, we must accept the paradox and try to do the best we can not to
> cause needless suffering. But we will, all the same.
> That's why this world sucks.

If only it did suck. Unfortunately it blows. :( 


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 07:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 06:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonabo Class Missile Frigate
References: <c1.24afabf6.2a7d092f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4BDD16.BDE2D5BF@mindspring.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> 
>  Incidentally, it goes without saying that these things kill TL E- ships
>  quite nicely.
> 
> TL E is very vulnerable.  The meson screens and nuke dampers are weak.
> 
> I think this is a better design:
> 
> 1000 ton hull
> J4
> M6
> Armor4
> 100 ton missile bay (holds 100 salvos)
> etc
>

FWIW, in MT it states in the referees manual p74 that the ROF fro a missile bay is 2, ROF for
turrets is 1. Each launcher in a turret holds one missile(3 missiles per b/r per turret in the
battery), 100 dton bays hold 100 missiles(50 missiles per b/r), 50 dton bays hold 50 missiles(25
missiles per b/r). 

Storage of additional missiles costs 0.1 Kl@, weight goes up if you want magazines capable of
storing nuclear or antimatter missiles. It states that a 100 ton bay used as a magazine can hold
13500 missiles, but not launch them, meaning the gunners have to hump 50 missiles out of storage
after two shots of a hundred ton bay.
I also only allow them to store HE missiles in bays. 

Which is why I use dedicated magazines for any military ship that needs more than one or two battery
rounds. And why the PC's in my campaign bought a 50 b/r magazine for each missile turret. Not that
they've ever fired all 50 b/r's. I think the most they ever used in one engagement is 6 b/r's.

-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 07:41:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 06:41:53 2002
Subject: [TML] damning (OT)
Message-ID: <191.ae4ea8c.2a7d3751@aol.com>

 >>  >Yeah, and I've seen human beings who were skilled and competent and
 >>  >determined and motivated and just plain better than me being kept down
 >>  >because they were born female. You can't damn half the human race on a
 >>  >generality.
 >>
 >> "Damn"?
 >
 >Condemn to medicrity, to second-class citizenship, to be denied things that
 >they want for arbitrary reasons, despite their determination, talent and
 >potential.
 >
 >What you seem to want to do is to set limits for people.

I'm not the one setting them.

The Army (and by Army I mean all the branches) generally refuses to enlist 
any 40 year old male (unless they're a chaplain or a doctor).  Are there some 
40 year old males who could do just fine in the Army?  Yes.  Does refusing 
them entry condemn them to mediocrity, to second-class citizenship?  No.  
Does it limit their potential despite their determination and talent?  Yes, 
but there are other avenues for determination and talent.  Why does the Army 
do this?  Because 40 year olds, as a whole, have sufficient problems that the 
Army knows it will lose more in attempting to incorporate them than it will 
gain.

The Army's job is not to help people gain their potential, realize all their 
talents, grant citizenship or status, or provide a career track.  It is to 
wage war.  The large numbers of women who cannot measure up physically to the 
task, who become pregnant at sea and are shipped home leaving others to do 
their work, who load up the ranks as single mothers who are undeployable, 
outweigh the contributions of those women who perform as needed.  The only 
reason this has gone on for as long as it has is because the word has come 
down the chain:  "You will make this work.  There will be no problems."  But 
there are problems, serious problems with performance, reliability, 
deployability, and discipline, and to deny it is a disservice to the defense 
of the U.S.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 07:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 06:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] System Gen Help
Message-ID: <c9.261a11c4.2a7d38e2@aol.com>

 >> I am doing an extended system generation.  I rolled
 >> for #6 to be the max orbit.  I also rolled for 2
 >> captured planets.  One is in orbit 6.3 and the other
 >> is in 6.0
 >> 
 >> Orbit 6 and 5 are both SGG's.  4 is the mainworld and
 >> the habitable zone.
 >> 
 >> Is this legitimate?  Or do I need to move the captured
 >> planet in orbit 6.0 to somewhere else.
 >
 >I don't know of any written rule to cover this (someone speak  up
 >if they know of one)

Book six says to place captured planets where you roll them, in disregard of 
any other pre-existing system feature.  Makes sense.

If a captured planet is in a gas giant's orbit though then it should become a 
moon or impact the gas giant eventually, or perhaps eventually be thrown out 
of orbit away from or towards the star.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 07:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 06:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <26.2ba24f20.2a7d3a88@aol.com>

 >> >Has anyone noted the set up with regards to the number of starports that
 >>  >can produce starships versus those that can only builld system ships?
 And
 >>  >to make matters worse, there aren't that many high tech star ports
 around
 >>
 >> I have.  It does make a big difference, doesn't it?  "If my ships are
 cheaper
 >> I'll be able to build more of them!"  No you can't.
 >
 >
 >See above comment that HG/TCS does not adequately provide a realistic naval
 >warfare system. But it is a cool game.

How does one create a "realistic warfare system" with technology that doesn't 
actually exist?  If a given system is simply consistent and workable then 
that should provide many opportunities.  Yes, it is a cool game.  Now if I 
could just get someone to play ....

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] damning (OT)
References: <191.ae4ea8c.2a7d3751@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001001c23af8$d8a53000$bf10bd50@martinjd>

>  >
>  >What you seem to want to do is to set limits for people.
>
> I'm not the one setting them.

You said you'd remove all females from the services. How's that different
from setting a limit?

> The Army's job is not to help people gain their potential, realize all
their
> talents, grant citizenship or status, or provide a career track.

Never said it was.

>It is to
> wage war.

Yes.

>The large numbers of women who cannot measure up physically to the
> task, who become pregnant at sea and are shipped home leaving others to do
> their work, who load up the ranks as single mothers who are undeployable,
> outweigh the contributions of those women who perform as needed.

Perhaps. So we need a better system, better screening. We also need to get
rid of the men who join up and then smuggle drugs across the Canadian border
in their trucks, and all the others who don't come up to scratch. But once
you start dismissing whole segements of the population on arbitary
distinctions then you deny people the opportunity to be the best. Heck, the
potential savior of our nation (s) could be even now be being turned away at
a recruiting station because she's a girl.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"
References: <11c.14d66d9e.2a7ce27f@aol.com> <005301c23ad6$a4ab5760$1d17bd50@martinjd> <3D4BD9A0.DAF7946B@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c23af9$02c7a020$bf10bd50@martinjd>

> >
> > The answer? Learn to get along and abolish conflict.
> > Until then, we must accept the paradox and try to do the best we can not
to
> > cause needless suffering. But we will, all the same.
> > That's why this world sucks.
>
> If only it did suck. Unfortunately it blows.


And sometimes makes strange inexplicable grinding sounds like a damaged
washing machine. But it's the one we got...



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <26.2ba24f20.2a7d3a88@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002e01c23afa$280d7200$bf10bd50@martinjd>

>  >
>  >See above comment that HG/TCS does not adequately provide a realistic
naval
>  >warfare system. But it is a cool game.
>
> How does one create a "realistic warfare system" with technology that
doesn't
> actually exist?  If a given system is simply consistent and workable then
> that should provide many opportunities.  Yes, it is a cool game.  Now if I
> could just get someone to play ....

Rephrasing... TCS/HG does not create an environment that I can reconcile
with a believable setting.

As a naval analyst of sorts I can look at your HG/TCS setup from the point
of view of a real war and say "that's going to come apart very quickly".
That's the thing about wargames... they're not about warfighting, they're
about winning within the constraints of the game and rules.

That's fine, but when you try to apply the conclusions from TCS/HG to the
Traveller universe, it does not create a believable setting.

To put that another way, if the Imperium simply said "we'll build a
battle-only fleet. Any conflict will be won in a decisive clash and all else
is trivial" then they'd not be there in Year 100, let alone 1100.





From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] damning (OT)
References: <191.ae4ea8c.2a7d3751@aol.com> <001001c23af8$d8a53000$bf10bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <003801c23afa$49145720$bf10bd50@martinjd>

This has gone on too long, and too far off-topic. 

I'm unilaterally dropping the discussion in the interests of bandwidth.



Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-to-the-Masses
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/





From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The IN in the OTU
Message-ID: <003901c23afa$8f883aa0$bf10bd50@martinjd>

Maybe worth mentioning at this point that all T20 products operate from the
standpoint that fighters are trivial things designed for traffic control,
screening and escort duty. Big ships fight and kill big ships, with the
occasional funky exception.



Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-to-the-Masses
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <200208031427.LZC00036@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Douglas E. Berry"
>1. Are you nuts?
 I'm not hardcore, I'm stupid.

>2. Really nuts?
 You bet!

>3. Can you lie perfectly still while an enemy soldier 
>urinates on you?

Gee, and I thought that this only happened to me!

>4. As in #4, but it is a National Guardsman during a 
>training mission.

No, it was two scouts from the 187th.

>5. Do you stand and remove your hat when you hear GnySgt 
>Carlos Hathcock mentioned?

Yes.
>6. Do you believe in your heart of hearts that there is no 
>such thing as friendly artillery?

I don't trust tac air, either.

>7. When walking in open areas, do you automatically check 
>sight lines and exfil routes?

When my daughter and I walk in the woods in a new place, I 
ask her to tell me where the natural lines of drift are - 
then we don't walk there.

>8. Do you refer to your wife as your spotter?
No, that's my daughter.

>9. Do you/Did you make every target at 300 meters but miss 
>the 50 meter ones?

Yes..  and there's an odd area for me at 700 to 800 meters 
where I get iffy - then I'm OK out to 1200.

>10. We mean it, are you *really* nuts?
You should ask the people I served with.

________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:29:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:29:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re: max hull size
Message-ID: <200208031428.LZC00116@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Matthew Bond says
>Briefly?
>
>When did MT come out? '86 wasn't it? Thats 6 years. HG1 was 
>only out for a year or so. HG1 was published in '79 and HG2 
>in '80.

I'm sorry - I meant HG1 was out briefly.  I think it may have 
been as short as six months.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Fighter Jockettes
Message-ID: <8b.1bef55bd.2a7d449c@aol.com>

>More than a theory actually.  The number of women being trained 
>as fighter pilots continues to climb, and there are many predictions 
>that the number of female fighter pilots will surpass the number of 
>male fighter pilots in not all that many years.  Women in general 
>are shorter, lighter, and have better resistance to g forces (ie they 
>don't black out as quickly) all of which are very useful qualities in 
>modern fighter aircraft. 


The Soviets used women as fighter pilots (and tank crew, and snipers, and 
other things) during WWII and had no complaints. 

One of my favorite anecdotes is the German pilot who was shot down after a 
long "knights of the air"-style duel near an airfield in late 42 or early 43. 
He parachuted safely ot the ground, was rounded up by security, and demanded 
to meet the pilot who had shot him down so he could shake "his" hand. 
According to witnesses he did not believe it when introduced to her, and only 
after she described the fight to him in detail ("You did X, so then I 
side-slipped right and did Y") did he come to attention and salute. Frank 
Chadwick told me he once saw a painting of the scene showing a 
crestfallen-looking German staring at the beaming Soviet woman using her 
hands to re-create the fight, in the style of pilots everywhere and 
every-time.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <200208031448.LZD00692@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Flykiller says
>if paratroopers land nearby then I think it becomes clear 
>that what your MOS is and what your actual job is are two 
>different things.  

This occurs far less often than you think -- and when it 
does, the strategic effects are far smaller and last far 
shorter than is commonly believed.  Combat elements that land 
in the enemy's rear will make mincemeat of non-combat units 
even if the defenders are men.  And the defender's combat 
units will be attracted to the incursion rather quickly.

If one side has a tech level advantage, and numeric 
superiority, I think that it will not happen to the superior 
side at all.

________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <200208031451.LZD00838@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

MJ Dougherty says
>Hey, everyone, he invoked Clif!
>
>Clif has been Invoked!

Hey!  Don't do that!  That's a second invocation!  You know 
what happens if you do it three times!
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
Message-ID: <200208031455.LZD00963@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

john.groth says
>Passive sensors IRL would have ranges in space significanly 
>better than those of active sensors such as radar.
>

I would point out, however, that all such reliance on 
technology may be subject to local conditions.  I managed to 
approach within 50 meters of consultants using their thermal 
pointer (something that detects people moving within 500 
meters of an armored vehicle - I think it's installed on the 
Challenger tank).

Mind you, I was using an umbrella to crawl behind.  They 
couldn't spot me visually, either.  I took a page from German 
tactics in camouflage.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 09:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 08:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <19b.65b1e1c.2a7d49d4@aol.com>

 >Okay. The Zhos have thrown large numbers of light cruisers and "merchant
 >raiders" (armed merchant ships posing as legitimate traffic) across the
 >border and are raiding lightly defended ports, shooting up your logistics
 >train and the Sector Duke is yelling at you that dozens of world governments
 >are yelling at HIM for protection. Many of these raids are by ships in the
 >light or even heavy cruiser class. Some sightings mention capital ships and
 >small task groups. They've probably got support ships out there somewhere
 >too.

Ah, a general overall fleet attack.  You describe a situation some weeks 
after it has begun.  I think my scouts would give me a more accurate picture, 
and sooner.  I will send a message to Deneb to send a fleet.

What is the status of his fleet at Cipango and Cronor?  If he has that much 
out in my areas, then his central fleet is weakened.  If I can put two task 
forces each on Cipango and maybe Ninjar then _his_ logistics train will be 
cut entirely, and they'll provide a welcoming committee to any Zhodie ships 
that straggle back home looking for support.  Further I'll send the fleet 
raider task force to shoot up whatever they can in other worlds in that area. 
 Two can play this game, only I'll do it with concentrated task forces.  Let 
the consule at Cronor yell at _his_ commander:  "There are a thousand 
frigates at Querion!  Do something!"

I'll leave Jewell exposed and do that.  Then I'll send out some of my task 
forces individually to locate and mop up these isolated forces, using an 
extensive scout network to relay information on their activities and ship 
counts.  I'll plot their courses and attempt to determine where they want to 
go.  Not that this would be hard to guess anyway -- I'm sure the Zhodies will 
bypass Pscias and go for Rethe if they can.

 >Zho fleet elements have struck at weak targets on the border, but you don't
 >know it they retired afterward or are advancing.

Assume they're advancing.

 >Your intelligence is a mess of vessel reports,

This can be sorted out.  It may take a few hours, but I'm sure my staff is 
efficient.

 >and while the attacks on
 >minor worlds are trivial from a military standpoint, those are imperial
 >citizens being shot up.

Yes.  They will have to wait.  Soon it will be the Zhodies turn to be shot up.

 >Some border  worlds (again, soft targets) have been
 >assaulted by ground forces and may now be under occupation. The sector duke
 >wants those worlds retaken. He wants the raids stopped.

Everything in due time.  The Duke will have to be a big boy.  And likely he 
is.  When the Zhodie fleet has been rolled back, I'll send in the troop 
transports.  Not until then.

You're trying to make me panic.  I won't.  If the Zhodies have scattered a 
lot of their fleet through my sector then I'll roll them up one at a time 
with my task forces at no risk to myself.  It'll take a while, but it will be 
done.  Zhodane is mostly at tech 14, and tech 14 wallows in the mud against 
tech 15.  I've tried every possible Zhodie fleet combination against the 
Spinward Marches fleet that I can think of, pitting 7 AE worlds against what 
Mora and Trin can build, and his only chance is to stick together.

Instead, I will make the Zhodies panic.  In 500 years the Imperium has never 
taken offensive action against the Zhodane.  The Imperium has always reacted, 
defended, retreated, lost worlds.  I'll make the Zhodies defend and react to 
me.  I will cut their lines, sit astride their repair facilities, and put 
capital ships where they have not been for 500 years, forcing the Zhodies to 
come to me.  Riverland and Cronor used to be Imperial.  I will have them 
back.  When the Imperial Fleet reinforcements arrive, I just might get them.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 09:07:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 08:07:04 2002
Subject: [TML] 40-year olds
Message-ID: <200208031505.LZD01427@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Flykiller says
>Why does the Army do this?  Because 40 year olds, as a 
>whole, have sufficient problems that the Army knows it will 
>lose more in attempting to incorporate them than it will 
>gain.

No, no, no.  The reason the Army won't enlist you is because 
the "useful lifetime" of the older soldier is shorter.  Not 
because you can't pass the PT test.  Training is an expense - 
and once they spend the money, they expect a useful time 
period after that, including reserve time.

Most Delta Force soldiers are between the ages of 35 and 40.  
The Army does not have a problem with age as it pertains to 
performance.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 09:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 08:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <63.f7e6699.2a7d4cf9@aol.com>

 >Modern war - 4th generation war - is fought in the living rooms of the
 >populace. Manipulating them is one of the keys to victory. Give them enough
 >uncountered threats, enough needless deaths, and they'll be demanding peace.

And that will work in my favor, as much of the Spinward Population lives in 
the highly protected worlds of Trin, Mora, Glisten, Rhylanor, and Palique, 
and the main fleet is very close by to Rethe, Louzy, Lunion, Jewell, and 
Vilis.  That's almost half of the Spinward Marches on those planets alone.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 09:16:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sat Aug  3 08:16:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Lawyers (was: re:  sword vs shotgun)
In-Reply-To: <20020803025421.23615.36452.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020803025421.23615.36452.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <dosnku0ivbte9spq255ucevkii8dj0vp8s@4ax.com>

On Fri, 02 Aug 2002 19:54:21 -0700, "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
wrote:

>"Glenn M. Goffin" says
>>I have on many occasions in my career as a lawyer

>Often, I have marvelled at how some of the more intelligent 
>people I have met (successful intelligent people, that is) 
>have a carefully selected lawyer and a carefully selected 
>accountant.

>Most Traveller parties need a full time lawyer - but how many 
>have you seen with one? 

How many lawyers can practice on every planet the party will find itself on
- and how many parties would be able to afford a lawyer that could?

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 09:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 08:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lawyers (was: re:  sword vs shotgun)
Message-ID: <200208031521.LZD02133@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Jeff Zeitlin says
>How many lawyers can practice on every planet the party will 
>find itself on - and how many parties would be able to 
>afford a lawyer that could?
>

It's the end of the shift, and the prisoners shuffle up the 
tunnel, returning to the elevator that brought them down to 
the working face eighteen hours ago.

Near the end of the column of hapless men, John says, "Oh, 
Jeff?  Remind me again about how you didn't think that we 
could afford a lawyer to handle that mercenary contract?"

A guard shouts, "Quiet in the ranks!"
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 09:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 08:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <98.29de0498.2a7d4f0e@aol.com>

 >You're thniking of everything in terms of a mapboard and counters. I'm
 >discussing warfare.

I'm thinking in terms of what the actually constructed vessels will do 
according to the rules, yes.  You are thinking in terms of imagining what you 
think various effects will be.  I'll take the hardware -- such as it is -- 
and I'll have the last word.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 09:23:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 08:23:55 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <19b.65b1e1c.2a7d49d4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <005601c23b03$2b455560$bf10bd50@martinjd>

>
> Ah, a general overall fleet attack.  You describe a situation some weeks
> after it has begun.  I think my scouts would give me a more accurate
picture,
> and sooner.  I will send a message to Deneb to send a fleet.

No, just raiders and "crumbling". No major fleet movements just yet. Though
attempts have been made to look like the fleet is advancing....

>
> What is the status of his fleet at Cipango and Cronor?

Still there.

>If he has that much
> out in my areas, then his central fleet is weakened.  If I can put two
task
> forces each on Cipango and maybe Ninjar then _his_ logistics train will be
> cut entirely, and they'll provide a welcoming committee to any Zhodie
ships
> that straggle back home looking for support.

He's got cruiers and light commerce raiders in your space for the most part.
No fleet. Now his fleet can mass against your cutoff task forces, and smash
them with local superiority.

F>urther I'll send the fleet
> raider task force to shoot up whatever they can in other worlds in that
area.
>  Two can play this game, only I'll do it with concentrated task forces.
Let
> the consule at Cronor yell at _his_ commander:  "There are a thousand
> frigates at Querion!  Do something!"

You have a fleet raider task force? I thought you just had battleships. And
of course he can commit his fleet (held back after the initial deception
raid) against your raiders, or the cutoff squadrons. No fear of not being
able to find them, since they're concentrated and hitting predicatble
targets.

>
> I'll leave Jewell exposed and do that.  Then I'll send out some of my task
> forces individually to locate and mop up these isolated forces, using an
> extensive scout network to relay information on their activities and ship
> counts.

Yopu'll disperse your fleet to chase moving ghosts. Yes please.

>I'll plot their courses and attempt to determine where they want to
> go.  Not that this would be hard to guess anyway -- I'm sure the Zhodies
will
> bypass Pscias and go for Rethe if they can.

Part of the trick in commerce raiding is to move semi-randomly.

>
>  >Zho fleet elements have struck at weak targets on the border, but you
don't
>  >know it they retired afterward or are advancing.
>
> Assume they're advancing.

Excellent.

>
>  >Your intelligence is a mess of vessel reports,
>
> This can be sorted out.  It may take a few hours, but I'm sure my staff is
> efficient.

No, I mean that there are similar vessels all over the place, dissimilar
ones too, your mass of scouts is losing ships and your intelligence is, as I
said, a mess. So is theirs, of course, but the point is that you don't know
where their fleet is.

>
>  >and while the attacks on
>  >minor worlds are trivial from a military standpoint, those are imperial
>  >citizens being shot up.
>
> Yes.  They will have to wait.  Soon it will be the Zhodies turn to be shot
up.

You'll ignore the nobles and the people shouting for something to be done?
Well, you can try. But what military has not been constrained by poitcal
pressure from within?
>
>  >Some border  worlds (again, soft targets) have been
>  >assaulted by ground forces and may now be under occupation. The sector
duke
>  >wants those worlds retaken. He wants the raids stopped.
>
> Everything in due time.  The Duke will have to be a big boy. And likely he
> is.  When the Zhodie fleet has been rolled back, I'll send in the troop
> transports.  Not until then.

I think thus pretty much shows me what I wanted to know. You're considering
the military dimension only here.

>
> You're trying to make me panic.  I won't.  If the Zhodies have scattered a
> lot of their fleet through my sector

No, they've sent their raider forces plus some old battleships trying to
look like a major force. Their fleet never actually advcanced, just raided
and fell back. It's rearmed and heading for your task forces I mentioned
above.

>then I'll roll them up one at a time
> with my task forces at no risk to myself.

See above. You'll chase them about with superior forces, weakening your main
fleet. You'll catch and kill some of them, but where's their main fleet?

>It'll take a while, but it will be
> done.  Zhodane is mostly at tech 14, and tech 14 wallows in the mud
against
> tech 15.  I've tried every possible Zhodie fleet combination against the
> Spinward Marches fleet that I can think of, pitting 7 AE worlds against
what
> Mora and Trin can build, and his only chance is to stick together.
>
> Instead, I will make the Zhodies panic.  In 500 years the Imperium has
never
> taken offensive action against the Zhodane.  The Imperium has always
reacted,
> defended, retreated, lost worlds.  I'll make the Zhodies defend and react
to
> me.  I will cut their lines, sit astride their repair facilities, and put
> capital ships where they have not been for 500 years, forcing the Zhodies
to
> come to me.  Riverland and Cronor used to be Imperial.  I will have them
> back.  When the Imperial Fleet reinforcements arrive, I just might get
them.

You'll plunge into their space and attack? That's the thing that'll get you
the decisive action you wanted. Of course, their fleet was concentrated
after the initial raids, because I knew you wanted a decisive action and
this was the best way to get it. So now you're at the end of your supply
line, fighting his fleet *and* his local forces, with political problems and
logistics raiding in your rear.

Actually, I'd probably do the same. Point is, it's not a great position to
be in, though it does get you the initiative.

My point, though, is that you have a wargamer's contempt for political
issues and "intangible compplicaitons". If the sector Duke can't afford to
ignore politicval pressure, he'll lean on you, and you'll end up being
forced to do things you don't want. This is the reality of strategy - it's
only partially military.

Your model works fine in isolation, but IMO it falls down in the face of the
sort of thing that happens in real wars - friction, political necessity etc.

In other words, we're talking about two entirely different situations. I'm
discussing defending a hypothetical sector from equally hypothetical (but
real for the purposes of the exercise) interstellar fleets, and you're
playing High Guard.

I don't think we can accept one another's assumptions, so the exercise is
pointless..







From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 09:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 08:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <73.238e7d1c.2a7d54c4@aol.com>

 >The feint/outfeint is one of the risks of war. I may be willing to fight
 >your six with mine, and trust to my ships and crews to win it for me

So we're down from achieving local superiority with feints to trusting your 
ships.

 >As to a dumb enemy... fair comment. I've heard the "enemy" make a number of
 >sweeping pronounbcements of the "oh, I'd just" that make me confident that
 >once reality intruded, friction would render this enemy less capable than he
 >thinks.

Well, I'd just have to see that I have twelve ships and a nearby repair base 
to your six exposed, and I'd just have to struggle along making the best of 
it.

In truth, I don't know what you mean by "feint".  HG doesn't seem to have 
much scope for maneuver -- the fleets are just there, at long or short range. 
 If you mean by jumping out and then jumping back then I can see that, but 
does the book say whether or not you can determine jump distance and 
direction from watching the (I'm sure) considerable EM signature of the jump? 
 I know it doesn't in 2 or 5 or 6, or what navigation times are, or anything.

The fact of the matter is that if a fleet tries to be strong everywhere it 
will be weak everywhere, and the enemy will be able to concentrate and just 
roll on in.  Gathering up the scattered fleet to face this concentration 
would take months, and in the meantime the invader would wander around 
unchecked.  It seems to me that whether the defender is scattered or 
concentrated the invader has the advantage in either circumstance, and 
there's nothing to be done about except to attempt to close or to invade 
_him_.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes
In-Reply-To: <4957.64.8.3.28.1028349006.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <4957.64.8.3.28.1028349006.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <m37kj7exgi.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

hal@buffnet.net writes:
> 
> In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head tax" or does it
> charge an income tax on its citizens for its Imperial Budget
> requirements?  In short, if the Imperial government taxes 10% of a
> Gross Planetary Product, then it would in essence be an income tax.
> If it charges a flat 500 CR per person on a planet, then it is a
> head tax.  Which is it?

I like a head tax, but that's ;ause I like em in real life as well.  

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Modern art is what happens when painters stop looking at girls and
persuade themselves that they have a better idea.    --John Ciardi

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOELACEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOELACEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <m33ctvexcp.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net> writes:
> 
> > But I'm certainly no expert on gender differences.
> 
> To paraphrase my late father, no man is.

Or can reasonably hope to be...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Every man, woman, and responsible child has a natural, fundamental,
and inalienable human, individual, civil, and Constitutional right
(within the limits of the Non-Aggression Principle) to obtain, own,
and carry, openly or concealed, any weapon--handgun, shotgun, rifle,
machinegun, anything--any time, anywhere, without asking anyone's
permission.                                       --L. Neil Smith

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
Message-ID: <F4088vi4IdT87AtHRip00025342@hotmail.com>

From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>

    "Just a reminder that there's stuff on the Citizens website."


Sir,

     Okay, I'll bite, you pseudo-spammed [  8^)  ] us with three messages 
about the CotI website so it must be important...
     What's the big announcement/product release/article/whatever that's 
been posted over there?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in traveller)
In-Reply-To: <199.acd8aa3.2a7cea81@aol.com>
References: <199.acd8aa3.2a7cea81@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3y9bndi8f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
>
> > That kind of setup might be cheap when it came to starship life
> > support costs, but I imagine the impact on the soldiers' psyches
> > would be extreme.
> 
> Not if they were only asleep during jumps.  "Good morning, we're
> passing through Regina and the captain decided you should all spend
> some money there for a few days."  And soldiers won't be spending
> years on ships anyway--they'll only be there when in transport.
> Kind of hard to practice armored maneuvers on the mess deck.

No, 'cause they'd still not get the full rest needed.  My
greatgrandfather and grandfather took well over a month to return to
the US after WWI & WWII; my father was back in college in 48 or so
hours after his time in Vietnam.  Granted, that's _some_ rest time,
but it's not nearly enough.  You don't find as much PTSD in fellows
who got to slowly make their way back home, adjust to the new reality
&c.; you find quite a lot in guys who are plucked up from one
situation and dropped in another.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Virtues foster one another; so too, vices.  Bad English kills trees,
consumes energy, and befouls the Earth.  Good English renews it.
                                  --The Underground Grammarian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <200208031455.LZD00963@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208031455.LZD00963@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <m3u1mbdi0l.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:
> 
> Mind you, I was using an umbrella to crawl behind.  They couldn't
> spot me visually, either.  I took a page from German tactics in
> camouflage.

Oh, so you _weren't_ wearing a bright blue coat and bright red pants?
However did you retain your lan?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Gun control: the theory that a woman found raped and strangled in an
alley is morally superior to a woman explaining why her attacker got a
fatal bullet wound.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <3D4C0537.C9A63C5E@ameritech.net>

> From: Flykiller@aol.com
> Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 03:57:07 EDT
>
> I'm afraid we've been talking two different systems.  I've been 
> talking CT HG1, but everyone seems to be talking about something 
> else.  CT HG1 only distinguishes between hull sizes on to-hit 
> adjustments, not hull types. 

The hull type is a roll to penetrate defence. It's not a to hit 
modifier.

> I'm afraid I don't know HG2, or for that matter any of the others, 
> and it seems HG1 has been deprecated.

HG2 is also for CT. It replaced HG1 in 1980 (one year after the 
introduction of HG1) and is considered the definitive version.

Hey list mom is this in the faq?

> Yeah, see in HG1 a factor 9 meson cannot penetrate any meson
> screen of 3 or higher, and any capital ship is going to have 
> meson screen 9.

It's the same in HG2.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
In-Reply-To: <sd495bcc.012@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
References: <sd495bcc.012@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
Message-ID: <02080118161500.01437@linux>

On Thursday 01 August 2002 04:03 pm, you wrote:
> Would a world that has 80% of its surface covered by water, a dense
> nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, and one moon that is large enough to exert a
> tidal effect tend to be more or less climatically active? Assume
> moderate (terran-normal) vulcanism and a fairly non-polluting early TL
> aqua/agricultural society. Also assume standard polar ice caps and
> rotation around 20 deg. off the plane of the ecliptic. I'll welcome any
> and all comments...

	It seems to me that axial tilt would be of greatest concern or possibly land 
distributions and the resulting distribution of albedoes not to mention 
affecting wind/ocean currents.
	Aren't there reasonable tools on the net for running a simulation of this?
Can the old program Simearth be used to test world setups? If not then maybe 
someone could be kind enough to fill this gap in ref tools ala starform. And 
could that someone make it compile/run under linux please?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:34:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:34:05 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <d7.1b1aa813.2a792099@aol.com>
References: <d7.1b1aa813.2a792099@aol.com>
Message-ID: <02080119251701.01437@linux>

>
> I have to say I'm in favor of the "simple kludge".  this is, after all, a
> fantasy role-playing game.  most of the technology being discussed doesn't
> exist and isn't even on the horizon.  I don't think "realism" carries much
> weight in such an environment.  you're supposed to adventure, not engineer.

	I agree with you that this is a RPG and realism doesn't carry much weight 
really...so why not play dnd instead?
	To be honest, I really don't 'play' the game but I like to tinker with it as 
a simulation and thus I like to try to make it more accurate. That is how I 
enjoy Traveller. I know that many aspects of it have no analog in the real 
world, but the aspects that do match, should match the RW as close as is 
possible if it can be done without sacrificng playability.
	To do otherwise would to make   many threads on the TML as a pile of 
steaming jgdkkf . To me, this is no different than arguing about guass gun 
muzzle velocities or the best way of disposing of bodies.
	Sorry...this is how I am.

btw.......Imperial nobles IMHO can be modelled after the Catholic Church of 
the middle ages. 
	Pope=Emperor
	Bishops, Arch-Bishops, Cardinals...etc= Various high nobles
	fathers,priests ...etc= lower nobles
The held massive amounts of power without holding the reigns of any single 
country. Yet no king would dare go against the Pope in those days.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:34:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:34:55 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <001601c238a9$261f2900$7919bd50@martinjd>
References: <200207311448.LTP02792@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <001601c238a9$261f2900$7919bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <02080120122002.01437@linux>

> If you're scrambling to put together some kind of resistance to an attack,
> then immense-risk-of-death is acceptable to patriotic volunteers because
> they see it as the only way to win. If you're building a fleet in case you
> have to fight, then survivability is a requisite.
>
	Why not just determine if youd get volunteers using morale rules from 
striker or mt ref's companion (same  as each other really)?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
In-Reply-To: <F4088vi4IdT87AtHRip00025342@hotmail.com>
References: <F4088vi4IdT87AtHRip00025342@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <200208031245370897.51623A1B@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

>From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
>
>    "Just a reminder that there's stuff on the Citizens website."
>
>
>Sir,
>
>     Okay, I'll bite, you pseudo-spammed [  8^)  ] us with three messages 
>about the CotI website so it must be important...
>     What's the big announcement/product release/article/whatever that's 
>been posted over there?

I think he is just trying to draw attention to the new Traveller webzine we=
 have opened, rather than anything specific. We are looking for writers and=
 of course readers! It's free, and we are paying for article submissions=
 that are accepted for publication.

BTW, if anyone is attending GenCon this year, be sure to stop by the QLI=
 booth (#841). Marc will be there as our guest and we'll have copies of T20=
 Lite fresh off the presses!

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:46:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:46:55 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <20020801182132.8dc5803e76f94f1f98d7b72b3352174c.in@keywest.kennett.net>
References: <20020801182132.8dc5803e76f94f1f98d7b72b3352174c.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <02080312521500.00601@linux>

>
> FYI, the Brewster Buffalo has such a bad reputation because of its poor
> combat performance against the Japanese.  Yet we are talking about the same
> fighter that managed to beat the Grummen Wildcat in the US Navy's
> competition for a carrier fighter just before World War 2.  If Brewster had
> not proven so inept in actually building and upgrading the fighter, then we
> would be seeing Buffalos tangling with Zeros at Midway....
>

The Finns LOVED the Buffalo. They thought it did a wonderful job against the 
enemy. Brewster just went overboard in trying to improve it by adding more 
weapons and armour than it had power to carry. Also at that time our fighter 
tactics were poor while Japan had been parctising in China since 1937
The Zero was not that great of a plane. WEak guns and no armour. Its ailerons 
locked solid at over 220 mph. Great in a turning fight but lousy in anything 
else.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] PLSS duration
Message-ID: <3816d337dc90.37dc903816d3@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Monday, July 29, 2002 11:06 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] PLSS duration

> In mail you write:
> 
> > shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
> >> 
> >> The need to defecate is likely to be the limit.  Short of nanotech,
> >> dealing with that in a suit is a real pain.  Stay in the suit too
> >> long and you have to deal with a *nasty* case of diaper rash.
> >
> > Well, you could have a water-spray which cleans one--the water runs
> > down the legs and is vented from the feet.  Spray enough and 
> you'd be
> > clean.  I'll grant it'd take some getting used to, but if the
> > alternative is being toasted, I think most will take it.
> 
> "enough" is apt to be a lot more water than you can afford to 
> vent. And
> trust me, you *will* have stuff left behind on the way down. 
> 
> And you are assuming gravity, as well.

I wonder if a sort of mini-airlock could be devised to deal with the 
issue.  Although sitting in regular chairs might be a problem.... ;-)




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Junk in space
Message-ID: <3865583847de.3847de386558@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
Date: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 3:49 am
Subject: Re: [TML] Junk in space

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
> > On the other hand, a 2 cm chunk of something is going to do more
> > than leave a dent.
> 
> Such a chunk probably has a kinetic energy of about 1 MJ at best, and
> very likely is travelling at substantially less than the speed of
> sound in starship hull material.
> 
> I think "make a dent" would be about right.  If one ever hit, 
> which it
> wouldn't unless the sensors were crippled.

Why am I reminded of the "ravioli railgun" post of several years ago?  
(I'd repost it again, except that it's on one of my computers back 
Stateside....)

IIRC, one of our Scandinavian list members also has it archived.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Check Your Landgrabs!
Message-ID: <3D4C1132.3C2572D6@mail.cswnet.com>

Just floated over to the CotI site and looked up
their version of the Spinward Marches. Arba's
population has gone from 550 to 100.

Everything else seems to be the same.

Those with landgrabs may want to check and see if 
there are any significant changes. I'd be interested
to know if anyone else's landgrab systems got altered
significantly.

Anyone now what T20's historical time frame is, if
it has one?

Now I'm thinking. Moving Nimmi Shis away from the
starport turns out to have been good planing. We
can waste the town, leave downport intact, and
have enough population left to cover the new
population figure. Quite a few BM's will bite the
dust, but the Taylors and the Tacans will still
be around. If the history works out right, we
can blame it all on the Sword Worlders.

Course, that supposes that I would want to have it
that way. Since I live in CT land, I just may decide
to ignore this little bit.

CT Arba pop 600
BTC Arba pop 550
T20 Arba pop 100

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <20020803173031.AB7754508@mo130uhou.palm.net>

john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:
[snip]
>This and many more fine quotes may be found on Mark Urbin's Web site: 
>http://www.urbin.net/EWW/sigs/rpg-sigs.html

 Thanks for the plug!
When that page gets big enough to split up, Penguin Boy gets his own wing...
----------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:33:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:33:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Check Your Landgrabs!
In-Reply-To: <3D4C1132.3C2572D6@mail.cswnet.com>
References: <3D4C1132.3C2572D6@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <200208031332570059.518D8C96@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 8/3/2002 at 12:21 PM Roseberry wrote:

>Just floated over to the CotI site and looked up
>their version of the Spinward Marches. Arba's
>population has gone from 550 to 100.
>
>Everything else seems to be the same.
>
>Those with landgrabs may want to check and see if 
>there are any significant changes. I'd be interested
>to know if anyone else's landgrab systems got altered
>significantly.
>
>Anyone now what T20's historical time frame is, if
>it has one?

The data other than for Ley Sector may be off. I am still looking for a=
 good set of definative SEC files for that section of the website. If=
 anyone can point to me to some or has good copies based on the AotI data,=
 I would appreciate it!

The Ley Sector data is based on our upcoming material and is set around=
 year 1000.

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"
In-Reply-To: <005301c23ad6$a4ab5760$1d17bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <B971637A.67A12%listmom@travellercentral.com>

Please relate this to Traveller

Listmom


on 8/3/02 3:14 AM, MJ Dougherty at martinjd@globalnet.co.uk wrote:

>> 
>> I rest my case.
>> 
>> "It's Milosivic's fault we bombed a convoy of farmers!"
>> "It's Arafat's fault we bombed that apartment building!"
>> "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a convoy of inauguration representatives
> on
>> the open road!"
>> 
>> If I were to act with this level of disregard even in defense of my own
>> children, I'd be in jail.  McVeigh was right -- "collateral damage" covers
> a
>> multitude of sins.
> 
> This sort of thing happens in war all the time. War is a tapestry of misery
> and suffering, most of it needless.
> 
> People demand that we go to do what must be done ( or sometimes protest
> about it and refuse to see why it must be done) then condemn the military
> when innocents get hurt.
> 
> The answer? Learn to get along and abolish conflict.
> Until then, we must accept the paradox and try to do the best we can not to
> cause needless suffering. But we will, all the same.
> That's why this world sucks.

-- 
listmom@travellercentral.com
for list information see
http://lists.travellercentral.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:42:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:42:06 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <fc.1bc430d6.2a7d06b7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B97163D2.67A14%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/3/02 3:13 AM, Flykiller@aol.com at Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>> Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
>> big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.
> 
> What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other sensor systems
> you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?


Nothing says that mines need to be static, waiting for something to hit
them.  A mine could be nothing more than a large missile with high
acceleration and short range waiting for some ship to come into range.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <001401c23ae8$dcdeae40$0905bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <B97164B2.67A15%listmom@travellercentral.com>

Please relate this to Traveller or move it to TML-Chat


on 8/3/02 5:25 AM, MJ Dougherty at martinjd@globalnet.co.uk wrote:

>> circles around the vast majority of the females I've seen, no
> exaggeration.
> 
> On the flip side, two of my friends (female friends) are more determined and
> in absolute terms more capable than half the men in our martial arts class.
> They're better than many who hold higher grades. They'd be barred under your
> rules.
> 
>> that's not damning women, and that's not prejudice.
> 
> Deciding the fate of half the human race - pre-judging their capabilities -
> becuase of gender. Nah, that's notuing like prejudice.
> 
> Of course, the poor dears can't be expected to understand politics, manage
> an estate or run a business either. Any you know? they couldn't do it. Not
> until someone let them try.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

-- 
listmom@travellercentral.com
for list information see
http://lists.travellercentral.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Con Jose the World SF Con any Travellers going?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020801092023.45176588@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <200208010315.g713FgD09733@sun.ebtech.net>
Message-ID: <200208031757.g73Hv6x10235@sun.ebtech.net>

Actually Anne Murphy in publications is a friend of mine.
I'll be staying in the party hotel and working in the Hilton.

Let's try and do something.


> At 11:12 PM 7/31/2002 -500, you wrote:
> >Hi I'll be at Con Jose working the Coffeeklatches
> >
> >Anyone else planning on attending?
> 
> I'll be there, working publications.
> 
> >Maybe we could get together over a meal to talk Traveller.
> 
> It would be fun.  May I suggest that anyone attending ConJose subscribe to
> Travller in SF.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TravellerinSF/
> 
> So we can coordinate a meeting time and place.  If we want to do an actual
> dinner, I need to know how many people are coming. -- 
> 
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
> 
> "Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
> - Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] damning (OT) PLEASE STOP
In-Reply-To: <191.ae4ea8c.2a7d3751@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B971661B.67A21%listmom@travellercentral.com>

This whole discussion is both unrelated to Traveller and inflammatory.  If
you wish to continue it, please take it off the TML.  Move it to TML-chat,
whatever.  

Thank You,

Listmom



on 8/3/02 6:40 AM, Flykiller@aol.com at Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> I'm not the one setting them.
> 
> The Army (and by Army I mean all the branches) generally refuses to enlist
> any 40 year old male (unless they're a chaplain or a doctor).  Are there some

[snip]

> there are problems, serious problems with performance, reliability,
> deployability, and discipline, and to deny it is a disservice to the defense
> of the U.S.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

-- 
listmom@travellercentral.com
for list information see
http://lists.travellercentral.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Check Your Landgrabs!
Message-ID: <3D4C1760.CA00C331@mail.cswnet.com>

Hunter Gordon writes:
>The data other than for Ley Sector may be off. I am still looking for >a good set of definative SEC files for that section of the website. >If anyone can point to me to some or has good copies based on the >AotI data, I would appreciate it!

>The Ley Sector data is based on our upcoming material and is set >around year 1000.

Well shoot, if its gonna by year 1000 than I don't have to do anything.
Cool. Just a bunch of prospectors and LSP hangers on.
The LSP starport eventually deteriates to type E, then a new one 
gets built elsewhere by independant colonists around 1083-1084.
Yeah, I can go with that. Mahvelous!

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
 traveller)
In-Reply-To: <m3y9bndi8f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <B97167AA.67A22%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/3/02 9:23 AM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> 
> No, 'cause they'd still not get the full rest needed.  My
> greatgrandfather and grandfather took well over a month to return to
> the US after WWI & WWII; my father was back in college in 48 or so
> hours after his time in Vietnam.  Granted, that's _some_ rest time,
> but it's not nearly enough.  You don't find as much PTSD in fellows
> who got to slowly make their way back home, adjust to the new reality
> &c.; you find quite a lot in guys who are plucked up from one
> situation and dropped in another.

While there is likely a connection between PTSD and rapid reintegration back
into 'normal' life, experts have also linked PSTD to the extensive use of
operant conditioning of soldiers that occurred after WWII.

What provisions does the Imperium make for combat veterans returning to
civilian life?  Are long voyages home sufficient?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: a believable starfaring navy?
Message-ID: <200208031922.g73JMGw03053@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
...
>> >cruiser before it closed and killed the carrier. Or....
>>
>>   Sadly, HG2 doesn't allow those sorts of complications, but
>> any of the hex-based Trav games make riders/carriers _much_
>> less attractive for precisely that reason.
>
>Agreed. This is why I believe that HG/TCS alone do not present a framework
>for creating a believable starfaring navy.

  You can abstract that - there was a thread on SCTA (a HG2 / 
TCS List:  ct-starships@yahoogroups.com ) about that this spring.

  Most carrier/rider solutions also entail reduced Jump efficiency 
due to refuelling, which TCS & 5FW only partly address.

  IIRC, Mr. Smith has a draft for in-system operational actions
up on the net (URL?), which should highlight the downsides of
low-G rider tenders (etc).

  Perhaps BL/BR can be mined for ideas on more purely tactical
limitations of tender dependent forces, such as the pure
excitement of cutting an entry too closely to an enemy force?

The rest of the rider debate is too well attested to merit re-flogging :>

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:28:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:28:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <200208031927.g73JRUw03653@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: sneadj@mindspring.com
>Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 22:16:45 -0700
>Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
...  
>However, Dresden is an amazingly clear cut case.  It was an act of 
>terror and vengeance easily as bad as anything the other side did 
>in it's bombing of civilian targets.

  Arguably it was also a strong message to Uncle Joe, although
I'm far from clear as to why we'd want to say "we're worse than
you" to _that_ regime.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lawyers
In-Reply-To: <20020803114546.E36724505@mo130uhou.palm.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803111851.4727ae50@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:45 AM 8/3/2002 +0000, you wrote:

>"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:
>[snip]
>>Most Traveller parties need a full time lawyer - but how many  
>>have you seen with one?  
>
>Even Doc Savage kept a lawyer in his group. :-)
>Useful for the high Admin skills too...

I played a lawyer in a Repo game.  Eneri Bitterman, Attorney-at-Large.  I
had poor combat skills, but excellent research and people skills.  When
we'd take a ship, I'd present the legal papers claiming the ship due to
loan default.

We had a blast.


Best line: "Hey!  This was a new suit!  Add it to our expenses!"
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:38:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:38:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
 traveller)
In-Reply-To: <m3y9bndi8f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <199.acd8aa3.2a7cea81@aol.com>
 <199.acd8aa3.2a7cea81@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803112050.478f7fe2@pop.mindspring.com>

At 10:23 AM 8/3/2002 -0600, you wrote:

>No, 'cause they'd still not get the full rest needed.  My
>greatgrandfather and grandfather took well over a month to return to
>the US after WWI & WWII; my father was back in college in 48 or so
>hours after his time in Vietnam.  Granted, that's _some_ rest time,
>but it's not nearly enough.  You don't find as much PTSD in fellows
>who got to slowly make their way back home, adjust to the new reality
>&c.; you find quite a lot in guys who are plucked up from one
>situation and dropped in another.

Which we accounted for in Desert Storm.  Most combat units spent a few
weeks getting back into routine before going stateside.

Returning home as a unit helped.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:39:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:39:51 2002
Subject: [TML] prejudice (OT)
In-Reply-To: <116.14e786df.2a7d2ad1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803112905.471757e8@pop.mindspring.com>

At 08:47 AM 8/3/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>And good heavens, I agree.  But joining the army is not the same.  The army 
>needs people it can definitely train now, that it can depend on to be able
>to do certain things now, and that are tough enough to get it done now.  

When I joined the US Army, I could barely do 5 push-ups, 20 situps, and
running 2 miles was out of the question.

Thirteen weeks later, in my final PT test, I did, in 2 minutes, 58 good
push-ups, 69 sit-ups, and ran 2 miles in just under 14 minutes.  I also had
never touched a firearm, but came out an expert marksman with several
weapons.  This is why we have training.

You comparison to a forty year old, is off.  Theoretically, that forty year
old had 22 years to decide to join, he chose not to.  A blanket ban on
women removes the choice.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:40:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:40:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Superstition (and Movies)
In-Reply-To: <d.2aca729a.2a7ca6f7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803113810.4727edae@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:24 PM 8/2/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>The movie MEMPHIS BELLE (the 1990s remake, not the earlier documentary) 
>illustrates this about as accurately as Hollywood ever gets history. It's a 
>pretty good representation of the history involved, including the extreme 
>youth of the aircrew.
>
>"Danny! Jack threw my St Christopher overboard!"
>"Here, take my lucky rubber band . . . it works, honest."

When I was still driving for SuperShuttle I had the honor of carrying one
of the Tuskeegee airmen in my van.  The stories he told me...  Evidently,
one of the pilots *had* to do a barrel-roll on take-off.  He's done it
once, and gotten his first kill.  So he did it everytime.  Another pilot
touched the muzzles of all the MGs before boarding.

>Several years ago, I was toying with the notion of writing a book of war 
>movie reviews discussing the relative level of accuracy of each (although I 
>think it has already been done). GETTYSBURG is one of my faves in this 
>regard. 

Great film.  "General, I have no division..."
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <m3k7n8eh5f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <3.0.5.16.20020802200157.46a789a6@pop.mindspring.com>
 <3.0.5.16.20020802200157.46a789a6@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803114257.497f3788@pop.mindspring.com>

At 09:49 PM 8/2/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes:
>>
>> Oh, and an NCO having sex with a solider in the same chain of
>> command is a violation of the UCMJ.  They deserved to get busted.
>
>That's a nice enough theory, but if one throws a bunch of 18-20
>yr. old boys and girls together they're going to get randy.  That's
>the Way It Is, regardless of what the rules are.  At least if one
>believes the modern prattle that one's sexual drive is irresistible,
>then one cannot hold anyone to account for giving in to said drive.
>And if one _doesn't_ hold to said prattle, then there's a whole load
>of other things one must abandon.

A NCO is supposed to be in better control of him/herself.  If that NCO is
out of control, then take away the stripes.

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:42:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:42:56 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <40.21b2d6f0.2a7cfea7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803114514.4717ac00@pop.mindspring.com>

At 05:38 AM 8/3/2002 EDT, you wrote:
> >And I daresay that if we have women serving in full combat capacity
> >under the regimes of either seperate standards (i.e. where they must
> >not meet the same standards as men) or reduced standards (e.g. I
> >understand that two-man stretcher teams are now four or more), we will
> >see plenty of human beings who die miserably because their comrades
> >are not up to the task.
>
>Actually, I'll bet we won't.  The military is talking now about how much 
>future warfare will be on the level of special ops, utilizing local troops 
>and only sending in special forces to coordinate bomb strikes, like in 
>Afghanistan.
>
>Army?  What army?

And in 1960 we knew that the next war was going to be on the North German
plains and involve massive tank formations.

Vietnam?  Where's that?
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Embrace Fascism.    The uniforms look cool


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:43:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:43:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <00e801c23adc$47c368c0$1d17bd50@martinjd>
References: <20020802231503.19852.60096.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <3D4B3637.35538EB8@mailbag.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803114655.4717ae96@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:54 AM 8/3/2002 +0100, you wrote:

>You mean Clif!
>
>Hey, everyone, he invoked Clif!
>
>Clif has been Invoked!

Aieee!!! you said it three times!  At least no one has mentioned Leroy yet... 
oh, damn.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"Some days, you just can't get rid  of a bomb!"
                    -Adam West, as Batman 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:44:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:44:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <39.2b0d8fbb.2a7d17c6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803114832.4717769c@pop.mindspring.com>

At 07:25 AM 8/3/2002 EDT, you wrote:

> >I also saw many male soldiers who whined and always seemed to be on
>profile.
>
>Many?  I saw a small handful -- in boot camp.  None of them passed.  Outside 
>of that, it was just normal morale problems.  My first reserve unit was top 
>notch, the navy men complained but were reliable and tough, and my next 
>reserve unit seemed to have nothing but capable people (except for a few 
>opportunistic bureaucrats).  I can't speak to where you were, but I've been 
>to some places and seen some environments, and I can't say I've seen "many" 
>male whiners or sick-bay commandos.

Many.  It might help that I was infantry.  I saw guys who were constantly
on profile, whined about their recruiters, and started their ETS countdown
with three years left in the service.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:45:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:45:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <19b.65b1e1c.2a7d49d4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803121034.44ff804c@pop.mindspring.com>

At 10:59 AM 8/3/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>Ah, a general overall fleet attack.  You describe a situation some weeks 
>after it has begun.  I think my scouts would give me a more accurate
picture, 
>and sooner.  I will send a message to Deneb to send a fleet.

Two months to get there at Jump-6.  Assuming an entire fleet is ready to
rush to your aid, 2-3 months to get it to the front.

>What is the status of his fleet at Cipango and Cronor?  If he has that much 
>out in my areas, then his central fleet is weakened.  If I can put two task 
>forces each on Cipango and maybe Ninjar then _his_ logistics train will be 
>cut entirely, and they'll provide a welcoming committee to any Zhodie ships 
>that straggle back home looking for support.  Further I'll send the fleet 
>raider task force to shoot up whatever they can in other worlds in that
area. 

What are his war goals?  If it is disrupting the Imperial confidence in the
sector, you will not be able to justify your move politically!  Remember,
in WWII the US went on the offensive only after Midway.

> Two can play this game, only I'll do it with concentrated task forces.  Let 
>the consule at Cronor yell at _his_ commander:  "There are a thousand 
>frigates at Querion!  Do something!"

Meanwhile there are a hundred ships at Jewell, Efate, Pixie.. destroying
naval bases and advanced starports.  He has a shorter line of support than
you.  Assuming that he started the attack, he also has more stockpiled
replacements.

>I'll leave Jewell exposed and do that.  Then I'll send out some of my task 
>forces individually to locate and mop up these isolated forces, using an 
>extensive scout network to relay information on their activities and ship 
>counts.  I'll plot their courses and attempt to determine where they want to 
>go.  Not that this would be hard to guess anyway -- I'm sure the Zhodies
will 
>bypass Pscias and go for Rethe if they can.

Any information you get will be at *least* a week out of date.  More likely
several weeks old.  How do you know that while you are chasing down raiders
the real main fleet isn't descending upon Regina?

> >Zho fleet elements have struck at weak targets on the border, but you don't
> >know it they retired afterward or are advancing.
>
>Assume they're advancing.

No.  You assume they are advancing.  You won't be sure until later.. much
later.
>
> >Your intelligence is a mess of vessel reports,
>
>This can be sorted out.  It may take a few hours, but I'm sure my staff is 
>efficient.

Try days.  And there is always a piece missing.  Read up on Market Garden

> >and while the attacks on
> >minor worlds are trivial from a military standpoint, those are imperial
> >citizens being shot up.
>
>Yes.  They will have to wait.  Soon it will be the Zhodies turn to be shot
up.

A bit harsh, yes?  Your job is to defend the Imperium!

>Everything in due time.  The Duke will have to be a big boy.  And likely he 
>is.  When the Zhodie fleet has been rolled back, I'll send in the troop 
>transports.  Not until then.

Tentative.  Hit them hard with everything.  If the Zho troops are engaged
in combat, suddenly they need help.  You've given the Zho commander a new
headache.  Depending on his ground investment, he may have a few hundred
thousand troops on the ground.  

>You're trying to make me panic.  I won't.  If the Zhodies have scattered a 
>lot of their fleet through my sector then I'll roll them up one at a time 
>with my task forces at no risk to myself.  It'll take a while, but it will
be 
>done.  Zhodane is mostly at tech 14, and tech 14 wallows in the mud against 
>tech 15.  I've tried every possible Zhodie fleet combination against the 
>Spinward Marches fleet that I can think of, pitting 7 AE worlds against what 
>Mora and Trin can build, and his only chance is to stick together.

You are still wedded to the idea that the Zho *wants* a fleet engagement.
You said it yourself: that's suicide.  So he keeps skirmishing.  Letting a
massive fleet be seen in one place, which then jumps to several different
worlds.  You come in and pick off a CruRon or two, but two jumps away,
there is glowing slag where the orbital shipyards used to be.  Look up
Quantril' Raiders, or the Rangers.  A diversified force can rip a superior
force to shreds if they are careful.

Which Roman was it that got ripped to shreds in Germany?

>Instead, I will make the Zhodies panic.  In 500 years the Imperium has never 
>taken offensive action against the Zhodane.  The Imperium has always
reacted, 
>defended, retreated, lost worlds.  I'll make the Zhodies defend and react to 
>me.  I will cut their lines, sit astride their repair facilities, and put 
>capital ships where they have not been for 500 years, forcing the Zhodies to 
>come to me.  Riverland and Cronor used to be Imperial.  I will have them 
>back.  When the Imperial Fleet reinforcements arrive, I just might get them.

Cool.  And in the same time, you have the Zhos coming from everywhere (the
Consulate is much smaller, y'know) and the Zho's destroying the ares you
were supposed to be defending!  If you are lucky, you'll be killed in
battle, and won't be hung for gross incompetence.

Mission is everything.  If you have been attacked, your first duty as an
Imperial officer is to defend the state.  Taking the war to the enemy's
home is a political decision.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"Genetically" we are nearly identical to fruit flies.  On the
other hand, as a species we write better string quartets. 
				- Rich Clancey


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:46:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:46:40 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <63.f7e6699.2a7d4cf9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803123126.44ff6796@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:12 AM 8/3/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>And that will work in my favor, as much of the Spinward Population lives in 
>the highly protected worlds of Trin, Mora, Glisten, Rhylanor, and Palique, 
>and the main fleet is very close by to Rethe, Louzy, Lunion, Jewell, and 
>Vilis.  That's almost half of the Spinward Marches on those planets alone.

My Sword World allies will tie down the Lunion and Glisten fleets.  Vargr
forces will raid the Coreward ends of Regina and Aramis to draw off fleet
elements from those subsectors.  Raiders and deep penetration fleets will
be sent into Regina and Villis for commerce and raiding and hit&run attacks
against starports capable of repairing navy ships.

My main thrust will come at Louzy/Jewell and Grant/Jewell.  Cutting off the
Jewell cluster.  Louzy has no gas giant, and Grant only two, making these
systems easy to hold.

With the door barred, and my penetrators wrecking havoc, I move on the
Jewell cluster itself.  Ruby (1005), Emerald (1006), and Mongo (1204) are
the first targets. All are relatively low tech, and only Mongo has a Naval
base.  From there, I send more forces to Lysen (1307).  Lysen doesn't have
enough people or technology to put up a stiff resitience.  These moves
would be on a timed basis, with fleets moving according to schedule.

Once everyhing was secure, I'd move the bulk of my fleets to Jewell (1106)
along with the invasion force.  Jewell would be a tough nut to crack

(Divergence, I just had the most amazing case of deja-vu.  I clearly
remembered typing that exact sentiece before, on this computer.  Weird)

With you reacting to my previous moves, I have you out of position.  I can
begin the bombardment of targets on the planet with minimal interference.
I would send troops down *as quickly as is possible* because in orbit, they
are targets.  On the ground, they are an asset.  My forces at the other
worlds have couriers stationed with them; ordered to jump out *the moment*
a large Imperial force engages my force.  This will give me at least a
little warning.

Obviously, there are holes in this attack, since I just came up with it.
The biggest hole I see is a fleet coming through the Federation of Arden on
my Rimward flank.  Placing pickets at Zircon (1110), Utoland (1209), Pequan
(1210), and 871-438 (1510) would give me warning, although I am probably
short on ships at this point.  Just have to hope that the raiders and
Swordies are doing their job.

There, a clear plan with goals.  That's what the Imperial player would also
need.  There is never a time when allowing massive friendly civilian
casualties is acceptable.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:47:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:47:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <98.29de0498.2a7d4f0e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803123222.44ff714e@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:21 AM 8/3/2002 EDT, you wrote:
> >You're thniking of everything in terms of a mapboard and counters. I'm
> >discussing warfare.
>
>I'm thinking in terms of what the actually constructed vessels will do 
>according to the rules, yes.  You are thinking in terms of imagining what
you 
>think various effects will be.  I'll take the hardware -- such as it is -- 
>and I'll have the last word.

You are really setting records for honking people off here, you know that?
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:48:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:48:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Ravioli in space (was: Junk in space)
Message-ID: <F114k2H3b98KtdhQYZk00009320@hotmail.com>

From: john.groth@us.army.mil
>From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
>>Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> > On the other hand, a 2 cm chunk of something is going to do more
>> > than leave a dent.
>>
>>Such a chunk probably has a kinetic energy of about 1 MJ at best, and
>>very likely is travelling at substantially less than the speed of
>>sound in starship hull material.
>>
>>I think "make a dent" would be about right.  If one ever hit,
>>which it
>>wouldn't unless the sensors were crippled.
>
>Why am I reminded of the "ravioli railgun" post of several years ago?
>(I'd repost it again, except that it's on one of my computers back
>Stateside....)
>
>IIRC, one of our Scandinavian list members also has it archived.

<puff of smoke>Oh, I have been summoned!


<Start Repost>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 08:31:46 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: HUMOR/Physics; Under enough pressure, ravioli behaves as a gas.

This is humor only people at MIT...or on the Traveller Mailing list...can 
appreciate.  Ravioli rail guns anyone?
While humorous in primary intent, this article also contains important
information about impact effects at vars. speeds...of a can of ravioli.

- ------- Forwarded Message>>To: 0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org
>Subject: Under enough pressure, ravioli behaves as a gas.
>Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 11:43:20 -0500>From: glen mccready <glen@qnx.com>>
[snip forwards]

>>There was still one aspect of the whole concept of a ravioli-loaded
>>railgun type wepon which we, lolling about late on a weeknight, with
>>only a few neurons randomly firing, could not resolve.  Would a chunk
>>of metal (can of ravioli) impacting another, larger, rest mass
>>structure (star destroyer) produce an "explosion" effect, or simply
>>punch an appropriately shaped hole as it passed through?  Bill?>

>What am I, the neighborhood blast physicist???  Well, maybe... :-)
>
>It all depends on speed of impact versus the speed of sound in the target
>(what is called the Mach number, where Mach 1 means the speed of sound,
>Mach 2 is twice the speed of sound, etc), and the speed of the ravioli
>versus the speed of light in the target (which I'll call the Cerenkov
>number, where Cerenkov 1 is the speed of light in anything; Cerenkov 1.3
>is the speed of high-energy protons in a water-cooled reactor (that's why
>you get that nifty blue glow), and you can get up to Cerenkov 2.4 using
>diamonds and nuclear accellerators.  In the late 40's people used to talk
>about Cerenkov numbers, but they don't anymore.  Pity.).  Lastly, there's
>the ravioli velocity expressed as a fraction of the speed of light in a
>vacuum (that is, as a fraction of "c").  "C" velocities are always between
>0 and 1.
>
>At low speeds (REAL low) the ravioli will simply flow over the surface,
>yielding a space-cruiser with a distinctly Italian paint job.>
>Faster (still well below speed-of-sound in the target) the metal of the
>space-cruiser's skin will distort downward, making what we Boston drivers
>call a "small dent".
>
>Faster still, you may have a "big dent" or maybe even a "big dent with a
>hole in the middle", caused by the ravioli having enough energy to push
>the dent through, stretching and thinning the hull metal till the metal
>finally tears in the middle of the dent.
>
>Getting up past Mach 1 (say, 5000 feet/sec for steel), you start to get
>punch-a-hole-shaped-like-the-object effects, because the metal is being
>asked to move faster than the binding forces in the object can propagate
>the "HEY!  MOVE!" information.  (After all, sound is just the binding
>forces between atoms in a material moving the adjacent atoms -- and the
>speed of sound is how fast the message to "move" can propagate.)  From
>this, we see that WileE Coyote often reached far-supersonic speeds because
>he often punched silhouette-type holes in rocks, cliffs, trucks, etc.
>
>Around Mach 4 or so, another phenomenon starts -- compressive heating.
>This is where the leading edge of the ravioli actually starts being heated
>by compression (remember PV=nRT, the ideal gas law?)  Well, ravioli isn't
>a gas, but under enough pressure, ravioli behaves as a gas.  It is
>compressed at the instant of impact and gets hot -- very hot.  Likewise,
>the impact point on the hull is compressed and gets hot.  Both turn to
>gasses -- real gasses, glowing-white-hot gasses.  The gasses expand
>spherically, causing crater-like effects, including a raised rim and a
>basically parabolic shape.  In the center of the crater, some material is
>vaporized, then there's a melt zone, then a larger "bent" zone, and the
>raised rim is caused because the gas expansion bubble center point (the
>bending force) is actually *inside* the hull plate.  If the hull plate
>isn't thick enough, then the gas-expansion bubble pushes through to the
>other side, and you get a structural breach event (technically speaking,
>a "big hole") in the side of the space-cruiser.
>
>Compressive heating really hits the stride up around 20,000 feet/sec (Mach
>4 in steel, Mach 15 in air) and continues as a major factor all the way
>up to the high fractional Cerenkov speeds, where nuclear forces begin to
>take effect.
>
>Aside: the "re-entry friction heating" that spacecraft endure when the
>reenter the atmosphere is NOT friction.  It's really compressive heating
>of the air in the path.  As long as the spacecraft is faster than Mach 1,
>the air can't know to get out of the way, so it bunches up in front of
>the spacecraft.  When you squeeze any gas, it gets hot.  So, the glowing
>"reentry gas" is really just squeezed air, which heats the spacecraft heat
>shield by conduction and infrared.  The hypersonic ravioli can be expected
>to behave similarly.
>
>As we increase speed from the high Mach numbers (about 10 miles/sec) all
>the way up to about 150,000 miles/sec, not much different happens except
>that the amount of kinetic energy (which turns into compressive heat)
>increases.  This is a huge range of velocity, but it's uninteresting
>velocity.
>
>At high fractional Cerenkov speeds, the ravioli is now beginning to travel
>at relativistic velocities.  Among other things, this means that the
>ravioli is aging more slowly than usual, and the ravioli can looks
>compressed in the direction of travel.  But that's really not important
>right now.
>
>As we pass Cerenkov 1.0 in the target, we get a new phenomenon -- Cerenkov
>radiation.  This is that distinctive blue glow seen around water-cooled
>reactors.  It's just (relatively) harmless light (harmless compared to
>the other blast effects, that is).  I mention it only because it's so
>nifty...
>
>At around .9 c (Cerenkov 1.1) , the ravioli starts to perceptibly weigh
>more.  It's just a relativistic mass increase -- all the additional weight
>is actually energy, available to do compressive heating upon impact.  The
>extra weight is converted to heat energy according to the equation E=mc^2;
>it looks like compressive heating but it's not.
>
>[Here's where I'm a little hazy on the numbers; I'm at work and
>don't have time to rederive the Lorentz transformations.]
>
>At around .985 c (Cerenkov 1.2 or so), the ravioli now weighs twice what
>it used to weigh. For a one pound can, that's two pounds... or about sixty
>megatons of excess energy.  All of it turns to heat on impact.  Probably
>very little is left of the space-cruiser.
>
>At around .998 c, the impacting ravioli begins to behave less like ravioli
>and more like an extremely intense radiation beam.  Protons in the water
>of the ravioli begin to successfully penetrate the nuclei of the hull
>metal.  Thermonuclear interactions, such as hydrogen fusion, may take
>place in the tomato sauce.
>
>At around .9998 c, the ravioli radiation beam is still wimpy as far as
>nuclear accellerator energy is concerned, but because there is so much of
>it, we can expect a truly powerful blast of mixed radiation coming out of
>the impact site.  Radiation, not mechanical blast, may become the largest
>hazard to any surviving crew members.
>
>At around .9999999 c, the ravioli radiation may begin to produce
>"interesting" nuclear particles and events (heavy, short-lived particles).
>
>At around .999999999999 c, the ravioli impact site may begin to resemble
>conditions in the original "big bang"; equilibrium between matter and
>energy; free pair production; antimatter and matter coexisting in
>equilibrium with a very intense gamma-ray flux, etc.[1]
>
>Past that, who knows?  It may be possible to generate quantum black holes
>given a sufficiently high velocity can of ravioli.
>
>     --Bill
>
>[1]According to physicist W. Murray, we may also expect raining frogs,
>   plagues of locusts, cats and dogs living together, real Old Testament
>   destruction.  You get the idea...
<end repost>


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:50:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:50:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
In-Reply-To: <20020803190005.10755.54707.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17b4qf-0002Ab-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
 
> While there is likely a connection between PTSD and rapid
> reintegration back into 'normal' life, experts have also linked PSTD
> to the extensive use of operant conditioning of soldiers that occurred
> after WWII.

???  I've never heard of this, who performed this conditioning and 
what were they attempting to do?  I'd be very interested in hearing 
more about this.

-John sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: intrasystem jumps?
Message-ID: <200208031956.g73Jurw06881@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
...
>> and protect shipping between these points.  Convoys may be forced to
>> use jump ships to do intrasystem jumps to avoid raiders,
>
>Not likely, I would think.  That would cripple your economy worse than
>losing 70% of your ships.  You'd be better off escorting them in
>normal space, since non-jump ships are so much cheaper than jump
>capable ones.

  Under G:T? In CT the cost difference isn't all that marked - an
in-system transport designed under HG2 could have J-1 installed
with the tankage demountable. Most dedicated in-system freight
would be normal space (& possibly _very_ slow!), but the wartime
requirement for tonnage might be readied in such auxiliary ships?

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 14:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 13:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <E17arId-0004ch-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <C25B0D56-A71B-11D6-8894-000502884755@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

On Friday, August 2, 2002, at 10:16 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
>
> The fun part will come of someone figures out a moderately easy
> way to get someone into a simulator while making them think they
> are getting into the real thing.  You won't be able to pull that trick
> more than once on someone unless the sims are *really* good
> (and they might be), but it would be an *excellent* test of exactly
> how well a pilot has learned his or her lessons.

The *really* fun part is where some Bad Guy(TM) figures out how to take 
out the safeties, and make a sim that really *can* kill...

> --
Bruce Johnson

Wherever you go, there you are.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 14:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 13:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Blowing holes in Japan (was " Re Patton")
In-Reply-To: <F215m4i0FN8Qnr2Hs3j00000007@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <828EDE16-A71E-11D6-8894-000502884755@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

On Friday, August 2, 2002, at 08:27 PM, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>     The result may have been an Indochina similar to our Central 
> America, rat bastards in charge of corrupt, laughing-stock nations 
> supported by the West solely because they aren't communists.

>     Gee, ain't alternate history fun?

Me thinks back to Suharto, Marcos, Dieu, Kai-shek, whoever it was that 
ruled Korea for so long...I must ask, sir, what's so *alternate* about 
this history you're describing? ;-)

--
Bruce Johnson

Wherever you go, there you are.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 14:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug  3 13:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
In-Reply-To: <E17b4qf-0002Ab-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <B9718B94.67A59%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/3/02 12:44 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:

> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> 
>> While there is likely a connection between PTSD and rapid
>> reintegration back into 'normal' life, experts have also linked PSTD
>> to the extensive use of operant conditioning of soldiers that occurred
>> after WWII.
> 
> ???  I've never heard of this, who performed this conditioning and
> what were they attempting to do?  I'd be very interested in hearing
> more about this.

Operant conditioning was one of the center pieces of the army's new training
methods that were adopted as a results of the work of SLA Marshall.
Marshall reported that only a small fraction of infantryman in combat fired
their weapons.  Even though Marshall's seminal work "Men against fire" has
been called into question, there is little doubt that Marshall's theories
had a great impact on military training.  A classic example of the operant
conditioning that was adopted post WWII is in the case of basic rifle
marksmanship.  Until the 1950, rifle marksmanship consisted of firing at
conventional targets at known distances.  This was changed to firing at
human silhouettes at random ranges in conditioned meant to simulate combat.
Soldiers were 'conditioned' to fire automatically at human silhouette.

The program was successful.  The number of troops firing in combat went from
10-30% to over 90%.  Many psychiatrists and others in the field have
suggested that this operant conditioning may have had deleterious effects in
that it short circuits the natural human reluctance to kill.  There is a
detailed explanation of this theory in Grossman's "On Killing", and it has
received coverage in other works such as "An intimate history of killing"
and "Achilles in Vietnam"

Hope that helps.

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 14:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Sat Aug  3 13:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] PTSD
In-Reply-To: <E17b4qf-0002Ab-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208031349080.22611-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Sat, 3 Aug 2002 sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:

> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
>  
> > While there is likely a connection between PTSD and rapid
> > reintegration back into 'normal' life, experts have also linked PSTD
> > to the extensive use of operant conditioning of soldiers that occurred
> > after WWII.
> 
> ???  I've never heard of this, who performed this conditioning and 
> what were they attempting to do?  I'd be very interested in hearing 
> more about this.

I know very little about this, but recent studies with sexual assault
victims (a lot of PTSD cases in civilian life occur among sexual assault
victims) *have* shown that a lot of the things we used to do to prevent
PTSD don't work and seem to make the problem worse.  For instance,
they found that certain forms of "debriefing" which involved discussing
the incident over and over actually increased the likelihood of
flashbacks.  Apparently this only seems to fix and anchor the memories. 

I don't unfortunately still have the citation, but I read it on
www.medscape.com -- I get the Transplantation update because of my job but
also signed up for the Women's Health and Psychiatry updates because of
my personal health issues.  I know it's out there.

The current trend on PTSD according to a lecture I attended recently is
that there seems to be a window in which symptoms will or won't develop,
and that judicious use of other forms of therapy including drugs to
decrease the nervous system reactivity are more effective than
"debriefing" or operant conditioning.  Apparently one's brain chemistry
becomes much more reactive following a sexual assault or battle experience
or other trauma... and whether or not it stays that way is the deciding
factor for the development of PTSD.

Please remember that these people who used these ineffective treatments
weren't evil or careless; they were doing the best they had with the
information currently available.

Kiri :)

**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shadowcat)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Quote from a Martial Arts Newsgroup[OT]
Message-ID: <3D4BC3F3.19297.767088@localhost>

> Let's have a good old Elisha vs. the prophets of Baal showdown.  
You 
> pray to Allah, I'll pray to General Dynamics. We'll see who bursts 
> into flame first.

This wasnt attributed to source other than the newsgroup it was 
seen in


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for the Atro-genius Types (was: System Gen Help)
In-Reply-To: <c9.261a11c4.2a7d38e2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020803210827.89257.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>

Would it be possible for a planet be captured into an
L4 or L5 point on a Gas Giant?


>  >> I am doing an extended system generation.  I
> rolled
>  >> for #6 to be the max orbit.  I also rolled for 2
>  >> captured planets.  One is in orbit 6.3 and the
> other
>  >> is in 6.0
>  >> 
>  >> Orbit 6 and 5 are both SGG's.  4 is the
> mainworld and
>  >> the habitable zone.
>  >> 
>  >> Is this legitimate?  Or do I need to move the
> captured
>  >> planet in orbit 6.0 to somewhere else.


__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
In-Reply-To: <20020801210703.29080.82373.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentr
 al.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020803221209.00ac8e90@mail.pi.se>

Mr Greenly wrote:

>Would a world that has 80% of its surface covered by water, a dense
>nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, and one moon that is large enough to exert a
>tidal effect tend to be more or less climatically active? Assume
>moderate (terran-normal) vulcanism and a fairly non-polluting early TL
>aqua/agricultural society. Also assume standard polar ice caps and
>rotation around 20 deg. off the plane of the ecliptic. I'll welcome any
>and all comments...

Mr Greenly, I wish to apologize for the late reply.

Let me first say the result would depend on physiography (how do the 
continents look?), and what you mean with climatically active. Often people 
- not that I in any way wish to imply you do so in your question - confuse 
climate with weather. A world can have violent weather but uniform climate.

The second thing is that climate unless you do have a uniform world (like 
Venus) will vary, so what is standard climate is a bit like saying "this is 
a mountain world". Rather Star-Wars generalization. A world humans would 
endure on likely would not be so generic.

Okay, the basic difference is that you have a denser atmosphere and more 
oceanic surface.

This will lead to 1) more water vapor in the atmosphere giving more cloud 
cover. This moderates climate, and it moderates the diurnal differences. 
You may get very impressive storm systems _if_ oceans becomes warm enough 
to set of hurricanes. This is something you wish to check for your tropical 
zones - if the oceans are warmer than 27C you can expect severe storm 
belts. So you would get less climate but more weather.

It will also lead to 2) better heat transfer by oceans and atmosphere, as 
we have more atmosphere and more ocean. This however would depend on 
physiography too - you still have these icecaps, right? When Earth was 
warmer and more humid, there were no ice caps. So I'd guess most of your 
continents are pole-ward. That would lead to great variations near the 
polar ice caps - cold polar air, winds from the glaciers, great seasonal 
effects.

If we assume an Earth-like placement of continents, I'd wager the 
moderation would in general be something like 50% better than on Earth, and 
that would likely prevent ice caps to form on a large scale. In order to 
keep the ice caps, you need to lower temperatures worldwide. If you lower 
temperatures, the atmosphere will hold less water vapor, which means you 
will have less weather but more variable climate. You'd still have oceanic 
moderation and the dense atmosphere, so you would get a world on average 
cooler than Earth with less distinct climate zones.

The denser atmosphere would also influence aeolian erosion. But this is not 
as much a macro-climate issue, though it could be locally important for 
microclimate depending on the geomorphology and vegetation cover you intend 
to have. If you are interested in such ramblings - closer to my field, so 
to say - or want some elaboration or math on the stuff above feel free to 
contact me off-list. I fear I won't read the digests with much attention as 
long as the current post flurry goes on. (To put it diplomatically...)

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <98.29de0498.2a7d4f0e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c23b34$47c49940$a211bd50@martinjd>

> >You're thniking of everything in terms of a mapboard and counters. I'm
>  >discussing warfare.
>
> I'm thinking in terms of what the actually constructed vessels will do
> according to the rules, yes.

My point was always that a realistic game setting - my main concern - is not
the result of your fleet model, which is designed to play a game of High
Guard with. I've tried to show why other ships than dreadnoughts and scouts
or whatnot are necessessary and useful.

.  I'll take the hardware -- such as it is --
> and I'll have the last word.

I don't see what you mean by that comment. If you're claiming to be the High
Guard mastergenius then fine, whatever. You'll win High Guard games and the
Traveller universe will continue to have diverse classes of ships that you
think are pointless. All we've really established is that we have radically
different viewpoints. And I can live with that....



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Pixie Revisited (was: Imperial Taxes)
In-Reply-To: <4957.64.8.3.28.1028349006.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020803211533.94550.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>

--- hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head
> tax" or does it charge

If the Imperium uses a per main-world "head tax" then
that may help explain the Pixie's of the region. 
Convince the Scouts that the main world really is the
low population world, then the per main-world "head
tax" is based on that main world rather than the total
population of the system.

Thoughts?

Paul

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: UFO
In-Reply-To: <memo.479640@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020803212000.97843.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Megan Robertson <mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk>
wrote:
> Mexal.
> 
> (43 on Friday... "Second childhood? Heck, I haven't
> done with the first 
> one yet!")


A bout of 24-hour flu prevented me from much posting
or reading yesterday.

So let me wish a somewhat belated HAPPY BIRTHDAY to
you.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:21:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:21:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <3.0.5.16.20020803121034.44ff804c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <002c01c23b35$18ddf4e0$a211bd50@martinjd>

>
> You are still wedded to the idea that the Zho *wants* a fleet engagement.

My point precisely.

> You said it yourself: that's suicide.  So he keeps skirmishing.  Letting a
> massive fleet be seen in one place, which then jumps to several different
> worlds.  You come in and pick off a CruRon or two, but two jumps away,
> there is glowing slag where the orbital shipyards used to be.  Look up
> Quantril' Raiders, or the Rangers.  A diversified force can rip a superior
> force to shreds if they are careful.

Again. This is what I have in mind...




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Firearms in Vacuum
In-Reply-To: <20803.011715.6z8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c23b33$ea8b8c20$0c0a0a0a@glidenet.com>

Actually firearms work BETTER in a vacuum situation provided
that you overcome a few technical details...

expansion, contraction and cracking of materials due to extremes
in temperatures found in stellar environments.

Lubricants boiling away in vacuum, or gumming in near zero
temperatures.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com [mailto:tml-
> admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Leonard Erickson
> Sent: Saturday, 03 August, 2002 05:17
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Firearms in Vacumn
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > Leonard Erickson wrote:
> >>
> >> In mail you write:
> >>
> >> > "Robert Uhl " wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > No, but guns *have* been fired underwater (this is a somewhat
> >> >> > different situation than firing one with a barrel full of
water).
> >> >>
> >> >> Anyone here have any experience doing this?  I know that it's
> supposed
> >> >> to work, but I've never worked up the courage or folly necessary
to
> >> >> play with it.  I've a lot of respect for Things What Go Boom,
and
> I've
> >> >> little desire to annoy them...
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
> >> >> If your franchise is not secured by force of personal arms, you
are
> a
> >> >> subject, not a citizen.                               --H. Beam
> Piper
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> TML mailing list
> >> >> TML@travellercentral.com
> >> >> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> >> >
> >> > I launched a model rocket from underwater after seeing it in "The
> Model
> >> > Roceteer" It was very
> >> > impressive.
> >>
> >> Do you still have any copies of The Model Rocketeer? Mine got lost
a
> >> long time ago :-(
> >
> > I think so, I'll have a look next time I'm cleaning that part of the
> garage.
> > Anything in particular
> > or do you want that article on underwater launches?
> 
> Well, I'd like to have a set of the silly things, or at least a decent
> scan of them.
> 
> --
> Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:23:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:23:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <20020802231503.19852.60096.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com><3D4B3637.35538EB8@mailbag.com> <3.0.5.16.20020803114655.4717ae96@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <003301c23b35$47204d80$a211bd50@martinjd>

> Aieee!!! you said it three times!  At least no one has mentioned Leroy
yet...
> oh, damn.

Oh gods, people.

These things come in threes, right? Clif, Leroy....

And now I've mentioned Leroy twice!

We are doomed. Assemble the Penguins of Apocalypse!


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"
References: <B971637A.67A12%listmom@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <006701c23b36$590b9800$a211bd50@martinjd>

> > The answer? Learn to get along and abolish conflict.
> > Until then, we must accept the paradox and try to do the best we can not
to
> > cause needless suffering. But we will, all the same.

Okay. OBTRAV: I wrote a similar quote in Starmercs.


Or.... imagine how utterly riddled with compromise the 3I must be, trying to
find local get-along solutions to conflicts and issues that just won't go
away. No wonder there are so many nobles and diplomats out there trying to
keep everything down to an acceptable level.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] COTI website
Message-ID: <00af01c23b37$299584e0$a211bd50@martinjd>

Okay. All other stuff stopped as of now.

The reason I mentioned the site was that we've just added more crunchy
Traveller goodness, and maybe some tml members haven't seen it yet. And
we're paying for contributions, albeit not much.


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-to-the-Masses
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Gauss Round Velocity
In-Reply-To: <B96D6322.66F09%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c23b36$2a596690$0c0a0a0a@glidenet.com>

IMTU a gauss weapon barrel is slightly larger than the round itself.
The round floats within the magnetic field inside the barrel,
Thus the barrel does not ware out, only the coils.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com [mailto:tml-
> admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Tod Glenn
> Sent: Wednesday, 31 July, 2002 12:49
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Gauss Round Velocity
> 
> on 7/31/02 2:40 AM, Flykiller@aol.com at Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> 
> >
> > conventional barrels are just a piece of hardened steel, and even
they
> wear
> > out.  if you merely scratch the crown(?) of the barrel it can ruin
> accuracy.
> > I would think a gauss rifle barrel would be a very high-precision
piece
> of
> > electro-mechanical equipment, and that subjecting it to a rapid
series
> of
> > small sonic booms could disturb it a little.
> 
> 
> Certainly, that's possible.  I would expect that gauss rifle barrels
would
> be at least as durable at contemporary firearms.  In a military weapon
> that's typically in excess of 50,000 rounds.  Accuracy is not much of
an
> issue.  The required accuracy of a military weapon is not the same as
a
> target rifle.  The AK series is considered one of the premier military
> small
> arms, yet barely manages 5 MOA accuracy.
> 
> If we accept the gauss weapon as pictured and described on page 101 of
> Fire,
> Fusion and Steel first edition as canon, the barrel of a gauss rifle
is
> really nothing more than an electrical coil.  Certainly a structure
that
> can
> be made robust enough to be imperious to hypersonic shock.  If the
gauss
> rifle is some sort of rail gun weapon, the barrel is even simpler, and
> must
> be sufficiently strong to resist the intense magnetic forces acting to
rip
> the rail apart.  Again, and effect from sonic shockwave are likely to
be
> negligible.
> 
> Bear in mind that the air in the barrel is a gas, and highly
compressable.
> It is also probably at least a thousand times less dense than the
material
> the barrel is composed of.  That is certainly not to say that it will
be
> uneffected, buy any such effect are likely to be so small as to not be
> noteworthy.
> 
> On the other hand, there is not telling what effects the sudden and
> repeated
> surges of high powered magnetic flux will have on the material, or the
> firer
> for that matter.
> 
> --
> When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
> --
> Tod L Glenn
> webmaster@travellercentral.com
> http://www.travellercentral.com
> http://www.spinwardmarches.com
> http://www.solsec.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
Message-ID: <136.11daab1b.2a7daa90@aol.com>

 >Mines, even of a CAPTOR type, don't have much area coverage. You'd need a
 >lot of them to cover an area, though orbits and other choke points are a
 >possibility.

Well, yes, that's the point.

Does Traveller have any rules for mines?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"
In-Reply-To: <11c.14d66d9e.2a7ce27f@aol.com>
References: <11c.14d66d9e.2a7ce27f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <p04330101b972034c1c26@[143.232.119.186]>

At 3:38 AM -0400 8/3/02, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
>  >>>> "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!" >>>
>  >
>  >Under the rules of war, we've been discussing, if an enemy intentionally
>  >builds fortifications or other military structures among a civilian
>  >populance, then that enemy becomes rssponsible for the safety of those
>  >aforementioned civilians. If those civilians are actively and willfully
>  >supporting the enemy, then they are no longer considered noncombatants. So,
>  >it IS Al Quaida's fault and responsibility if the US intentionally seeks to
>  >bomb a legitimate military target that Al Qaida has hidden behind a human
>  >shield.
>
>I rest my case.
>
>"It's Milosivic's fault we bombed a convoy of farmers!"
>"It's Arafat's fault we bombed that apartment building!"
>"It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a convoy of inauguration representatives on
>the open road!"
>
>If I were to act with this level of disregard even in defense of my own
>children, I'd be in jail.  McVeigh was right -- "collateral damage" covers a
>multitude of sins.

Ironically, it is this attitude that, in fact, means that you will 
have _more_ civilian casualties.  It means that one side can put 
targets in the middle of civilians and be rewarded by their being 
protected or by their gaining condemnation of the other side.  This 
will only mean they will do it even more.  (Which, in fact, is what 
we see, the less moral are in fact doing just that).

If you really care about civilian casualties, you would join in say 
that that the world sould put pressure on those that deliberately 
court such deaths, those that use civilians as human shields....
-- 
_______________________________________________________________
David P. Summers, SETI Institute
Mail Stop 239-4
NASA Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000

650-604-6206
dsummers@mail.arc.nasa.gov

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <003301c23b35$47204d80$a211bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHGEECIKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

:
:

We are doomed. Assemble the Penguins of Apocalypse!

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

And us with a snowball's chance
 
jml
why penguins
I mean, take Howard Stern, he looks
and acts a lot more alien

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:12:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:12:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes
In-Reply-To: <4957.64.8.3.28.1028349006.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <4957.64.8.3.28.1028349006.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <p04330102b972055d98f1@[143.232.119.186]>

At 12:30 AM -0400 8/3/02, hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>Hello Folks,
>   Just a question of sorts...
>
>In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head tax" or does it charge
>an income tax on its citizens for its Imperial Budget requirements?  In
>short, if the Imperial government taxes 10% of a Gross Planetary Product,
>then it would in essence be an income tax.  If it charges a flat 500 CR
>per person on a planet, then it is a head tax.  Which is it?
>
>And I find it an interesting thought here.  If the Imperium charges say,
>3% of a planet's gross planetary product for its military taxes - this tax
>is on top of the local ruler's/government's tax.  How much in the way of
>taxes can a population take before its economy begins to stagnate?

My impression is that imperial taxes are very indirect (they collect 
money from the member states.  The only direct taxes are the fees 
they collect at starports?
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
Message-ID: <133.124edb2b.2a7daff5@aol.com>

 >> What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other 
 >> sensor systems 
 >> you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?
 >
 >I recommend you read Bruce Alan Macintosh's Definitive Sensor Rules for 
 >T4/FF&S2 for a complete discussion of sensors.  Passive sensors IRL 
 >would have ranges in space significanly better than those of active 
 >sensors such as radar.
 >
 >http://traveller.mu.org/house/sensor.rules.html

Great site, thanks.  But using this it looks like mines are right out.  I 
wish it were so easy to detect incoming asteroids and meteors in RL.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:26:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:26:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: troll optimization on the TML
Message-ID: <1aa.6256260.2a7db26e@aol.com>

 >> Mex, you need to have Fly run around the parade ground until 
 >> you get tired...
 >
 >Now THERE's a Good Idea :-)
 >
 >"Flykiller, front and centre!"

Ma'am, yes ma'am!  (thud thud thud thud)  Ma'am, Sgt. Flykiller reporting as 
ordered, ma'am!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:27:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:27:24 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was  COTI website)
In-Reply-To: <00af01c23b37$299584e0$a211bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <20020803222559.7D7BC2793F@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/03/02 at 10:45 PM,  "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
said:

>Okay. All other stuff stopped as of now.

>The reason I mentioned the site was that we've just added more
>crunchy Traveller goodness, and maybe some tml members haven't seen
>it yet. And we're paying for contributions, albeit not much.

Martin, Loren, Hunter, and all others involved in producing Traveller
oriented stuff,

IMO, I don't mind occasional reminders of "what you've got" and where
it is, I don't mind announcements when you've got something new and
exciting, I don't mind you asking us for our input on things, and I
don't mind you giving us your input on things. In fact, I appreciate
it, and hope you kept it up!  Now, if you started posting
advertisements every day and twice on Sundays, then that would be too
much, but none of you are, or are likely to start, doing that. 

So, to those that think Martan, Loren, et al are "spamming" this group
I politely offer the suggestion..."Go suck eggs!"  

And to the subjects of this post, I say, "Thank you for the work and
keeping us informed, and keep doing both!"

Eris,
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:29:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:29:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Gauss Round Velocity
In-Reply-To: <000c01c23b36$2a596690$0c0a0a0a@glidenet.com>
Message-ID: <B971A6EB.67A9C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/3/02 2:38 PM, Shawn R Sears at ShawnSears@telocity.com wrote:

> IMTU a gauss weapon barrel is slightly larger than the round itself.
> The round floats within the magnetic field inside the barrel,
> Thus the barrel does not ware out, only the coils.
> 

Just out of curiosity, why do the coils wear out?  There's no contact with
the projectile, just current generating a magnetic field, right?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] PTSD
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208031349080.22611-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208031349080.22611-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <m3ado3d16n.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Azalais Malfoy <tiamat@tsoft.com> writes:
>
> For instance, they found that certain forms of "debriefing" which
> involved discussing the incident over and over actually increased
> the likelihood of flashbacks.  Apparently this only seems to fix and
> anchor the memories.

That's what I've been saying for years: going on about a problem only
worsens it, like picking at a scab.  Better not to dwell on it, I'd
think, otherwise as you point out it becomes fixed in one's mind.

> The current trend on PTSD according to a lecture I attended recently
> is that there seems to be a window in which symptoms will or won't
> develop, and that judicious use of other forms of therapy including
> drugs to decrease the nervous system reactivity are more effective
> than "debriefing" or operant conditioning.  Apparently one's brain
> chemistry becomes much more reactive following a sexual assault or
> battle experience or other trauma... and whether or not it stays
> that way is the deciding factor for the development of PTSD.

So having a few drinks might help?  How amusing:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I'm reminded of the day my daughter came in, looked over my shoulder at
some Perl 4 code and said, `What is that, swearing?'       --Larry Wall

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:35:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:35:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <73.238e61b4.2a7db467@aol.com>

 >On the flip side, two of my friends (female friends) are more determined and
 >in absolute terms more capable than half the men in our martial arts class.
 >They're better than many who hold higher grades. They'd be barred under your
 >rules.

Fully capable men 40 years of age are also barred from enlistment.  There's a 
reason.

 >>that's not damning women, and that's not prejudice.
 >
 >Deciding the fate of half the human race - pre-judging their capabilities -
 >becuase of gender. Nah, that's notuing like prejudice.

Their fate?  I really don't think so.

 >Of course, the poor dears can't be expected to understand politics, manage
 >an estate or run a business either. Any you know? they couldn't do it. Not
 >until someone let them try.

They are trying it.  And it's causing far more damage than good.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:36:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:36:30 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEKPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEKPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <p04330103b9720a71cb73@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:47 PM -0700 8/2/02, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>  >From: "Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com>
>>Subject: [TML] re: Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
>traveller)
>>
>>With "freezer pop" soldiers, you might have people who wake
>>up, fight to the death for a week, then go back to sleep
>>until the next fight to the death crops up. No down time,
>>no ability to process what happened before it all starts
>>again.  Imagine the post-war condition of the average US
>
>For this reason, I doubt that the Imperial and Solomani militaries rely
>heavily on low berth for troop transportation.  The Zhodani may have an edge
>with better capabilities in psychology.
>
>>Forever War was a helluva book, btw.
>
>Agreed!


It seemed a good deal.  You aren't first into battle (you aren't any 
more likely to get killed since the unfrozen guys get killed first) 
and you don't have to deal with boredom between battles.  Odds are 
you sign up, get frozen, and wake up with all your pay waiting for 
you.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
Message-ID: <memo.581428@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <m3u1mbdi0l.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
> > Mind you, I was using an umbrella to crawl behind.  They couldn't
> > spot me visually, either.  I took a page from German tactics in
> > camouflage.
> 
> Oh, so you _weren't_ wearing a bright blue coat and bright red pants?
> However did you retain your lan?

I did on one occasion manage to hide in the middle of a clearing wearing a 
set of bright blue coveralls.

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:48:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:48:57 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
Message-ID: <memo.581429@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <200208031245370897.51623A1B@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
> BTW, if anyone is attending GenCon this year, be sure to stop by the 
> QLI booth (#841). Marc will be there as our guest and we'll have copies 
> of T20 Lite fresh off the presses!

Any plans for a presence at Gen Con UK?

Apart from the T20 lite scenario I'm writing, that is (characters 
courtesy of Mark Urbin). And our friends at BITS...

Oh, and you may have the scenario after Gen Con UK for the website.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.

PS. Hunter, did you get the e-mail I sent you?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Junk in space
In-Reply-To: <3865583847de.3847de386558@us.army.mil>
References: <3865583847de.3847de386558@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <20020804085749.A21861@freeman.little-possums.net>

john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:
> Why am I reminded of the "ravioli railgun" post of several years ago?  
[...]
> IIRC, one of our Scandinavian list members also has it archived.

Yes, I've got that one archived too. :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Off I go
Message-ID: <F253RGE9fkM0PhDK4TI00026147@hotmail.com>

I've sent an unsub request to the listmom, I should
be gone for a week.  If someone has an email for me,
it should make it to this email account, at least
until it fills with spam.  Much as I hate to walk out
in the middle of such interesting discussions, it is
family vacation time!

My sister's marriage to one of Uncle Sam's Misguided
Children has made the beachfront cabins of Camp Lejeaune
available to me and mine, so I hope in a day or two to
have my little ones playing in the water at a beach in
the Carolinas while I watch amphibious assault exercises
through my binoculars.  My brother-in-law has been a long
time away on the Tarawa, so my sister and her kids are
looking forward to some family company.

With any luck, a day trip to the USS North Carolina
will round out the visit.  I've been really looking
forward to it.

Leroy, Cliff, and now Flykiller...this list never
ceases to entertain!  :-)

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:00:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:00:04 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
Message-ID: <168.1196d69b.2a7dba32@aol.com>

 >>  >Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
 >>  >big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.
 >> 
 >> What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other sensor 
systems 
 >> you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?
 >
 >Well, the problem is that even if you have literally thousands of
 >them, the nearest one will likely pass tens of thousands of kilometres
 >from the target.  So they need pretty good sensors, which means
 >significant cost and size.
 > ....
 >Worse still, we're talking about insystem relative speeds which are
 >often on the order of megametres per second.  In a typical Traveller
 >space combat sequence, the ship gets a million kilometres away during
 >the combat round in which it is detected.

I was envisioning them as being simply chemical missiles.  In orbit around a 
gas giant would be a good place.  The ships have to go there, they can't go 
all that fast while scooping, and there is a horizon beyond which they'll 
have trouble seeing (if they can see through a horizon at all).  They 
shouldn't need tremendous sensors for such a location.  Or maybe they could 
be floating just below the surface of the water in a system with only water 
fuel available.  They wouldn't have to sense much, just a big thing blocking 
out the sun or maybe a large magnetic disturbance, and their target would 
hardly be moving.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <B97163D2.67A14%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <fc.1bc430d6.2a7d06b7@aol.com> <B97163D2.67A14%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020804090304.B21861@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> Nothing says that mines need to be static, waiting for something to hit
> them.  A mine could be nothing more than a large missile with high
> acceleration and short range waiting for some ship to come into range.

In fact, it pretty much *has* to be a missile.  Quite a lot bigger,
because it needs its own sensor array, more endurance than a normal
missile, and better defences.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: intrasystem jumps?
In-Reply-To: <200208031956.g73Jurw06881@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
References: <200208031956.g73Jurw06881@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <20020804090450.C21861@freeman.little-possums.net>

Steven Hudson wrote:

> From: Timothy Little
> > You'd be better off escorting them in normal space, since non-jump
> >ships are so much cheaper than jump capable ones.
 
>   Under G:T?

Yes.  That's the only version of Traveller I have now.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: UFO
Message-ID: <memo.581874@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <20020803212000.97843.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
> > Mexal.
> > 
> > (43 on Friday... "Second childhood? Heck, I haven't
> > done with the first 
> > one yet!")
> 
> 
> A bout of 24-hour flu prevented me from much posting
> or reading yesterday.
> 
> So let me wish a somewhat belated HAPPY BIRTHDAY to
> you.

Why, thank you kind sir. Hope you are feeling better now.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:10:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:10:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: troll optimization on the TML
Message-ID: <memo.581875@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <1aa.6256260.2a7db26e@aol.com>
>  >"Flykiller, front and centre!"
> 
> Ma'am, yes ma'am!  (thud thud thud thud)  Ma'am, Sgt. Flykiller 
> reporting as ordered, ma'am!

"Don't call me Ma'am, I work for a living!"

[And there we'd better leave it, as drilling you is not really very 
Traveller-related!]

Hugs and kisses,

Sergeant Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Bryn=20Monnery?=)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Gauss Round Velocity
Message-ID: <20020803231411.23203.qmail@web13903.mail.yahoo.com>

>>The gauss rifle fires 4 mm, 4 gram needles
(silently) at 1500 m/s, with a Striker/MegaTraveller
penetration of 7 out 
to 600 m and 4 dice of damage (and 3 attacks if you
fire a 10-round 
burst):<<

1,500mps is believable, the highest MV for a real
service weapon I know of is the M-16 firing 5.56mm US
(not 5.56mm NATO) which was a 3.56g round going
1050mps.

However, throwing 4g that fast? That's an ME of
4,500j, sufficient to penetrate 22mm of armour steel
at close range, recoil is less than an SLR though
(only 6 ms-1kg-1).

4,500mps is ridiculous though, twice the muzzle energy
of a .50 Cal, penetrating 68mm of armour steel. 

Bryn


=====
"I knew it on the roof that night. We were brothers, Roy Batty and I! Combat models of the highest order. We had fought in wars not yet dreamed of... in vast nightmares still unnamed. We were the new people... Roy and me and Rachael! We were made for this world. It was ours!"

- Final Line of Blade Runner: Original Preview Cut

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you'll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <168.1196d69b.2a7dba32@aol.com>
References: <168.1196d69b.2a7dba32@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020804093340.D21861@freeman.little-possums.net>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> I was envisioning them as being simply chemical missiles.  In orbit
> around a gas giant would be a good place.

Except for one thing: it's wartime.  The defenders have been there
first with their own sensor platforms and semi-autonomous missiles,
less expensive per unit than yours for the same capability.  Probably
also a few large system monitors and at least a few dozen SDBs.
Furthermore, your launches are detected and tracked automatically and
your mines will be shot before emplacing themselves.

We are talking about a system with an annual economy of around 10 TCr,
remember.  They can afford to spend 10 GCr per year on gas-giant
defence even in peacetime, let alone war.


>  The ships have to go there,

No.  Local traffic refuels at their starports, which are in turn
refuelled from any of thousands of locations, almost certainly
including the very well-defended surface of the mainworld.  Hydrogen
is *not* a scarce resource by any stretch of the imagination.

*You* are far more likely to need to go to the gas giant than the
defenders are, since you don't have the luxury of hanging around to
exploit other sources.  Mining and patrolling the gas giant makes
perfect sense for the defenders.  It makes no sense for you.


>  Or maybe they could be floating just below the surface of the water
> in a system with only water fuel available.They wouldn't have to
> sense much, just a big thing blocking out the sun or maybe a large
> magnetic disturbance, and their target would hardly be moving.

"Big thing blocking out the sun"!?

Do you have any idea how *huge* a planet is?  Earth's oceans cover
more than three hundred million square kilometres.  Even if the ships
coming in to refuel were absolutely blind and picked their refuelling
locations completely at random, and were a hundred metres in diameter,
any given mine would have a one in a hundred billion chance of having
a ship "block out the sun".  Can you drop even one *million* mines?

I think you need to run the numbers a bit.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:37:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:37:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes
References: <memo.572871@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <000301c23b46$ef5882e0$2a74fea9@imogen>

Mexal wrote:
> IMTU, the Imperium taxes its member planets. How that planet
> chooses to raise the money to meet the Imperial tax bill is up
> to them.
> 
> Most just hike their own income tax a fraction of a percent. 
> 
> Some, especially those who are lukewarm about their membership,
> charge a separate 'Imperial Tax' to make the point that people
> are being charged for the privilege.
> 
> Some levy the tax on what they perceive as being the benefits
> of belonging to the Imperium, such as interstellar trade.

This is similar to how I treat taxes IMTU also.  (Actually,  'cos
most of my campaigns have the PCs still in active service its not
usually a feature,  however  ...)  I  also  tend  to  relate  tax
complexity to society's age (look at population, law  level,  and
government type for implied  indicators).  Young  societies  will
only have a few key taxes (whether poll tax, income tax, or sales
tax, maybe a couple of them).  But as societies age more and more
taxes are added.  Older societies have complex  tax  systems  ...
including needing permits (with fees) for just about  everything.
Poll tax, income tax, sales tax, business tax, air/raft  tax,  TV
ownership tax, visitor's tax, residency  tax,  fuel  tax,  excess
size on public transport tax, driving  in  congested  areas  tax,
driving on fast road tax, inheritance tax, internet  data  volume
tax, pet ownership tax, book tax, fast food litter  tax,  capital
gains tax, import tax, export tax, customs duty tax, labour union
membership tax, recreational drug tax (alcohol, tobacco,  other),
education tax, stock market tax, cargo broker  tax,  travel  tax,
hospital tax, legal tax, gun ownership tax, ammunition tax, sword
ownership tax, radio  broadcast  tax,  cellphone  tax,  unmuzzled
Vargr tax, consumption of meat tax, marriage tax, pregnancy  tax,
temple tax, etc, etc, etc ...

At some point tax ceases to be about raising funds and becomes an
instrument  for  social  engineering.  So   a   government   with
separatist leanings on a  world  with  an  "Imperial  Tax"  might
increase it higher than the world's actual Imperial contribution.

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prejudice (OT)
Message-ID: <55.2b3ad1ac.2a7dc32f@aol.com>

 >> There is no right to be in the military.
 >
 >Okay. "I believe that people have the basic right to self-determination. If
 >the military exists and some people want to be in it, they have the right to
 >try to meet its absolute standards and if they do, to be accepted. IE the
 >right not to be debarred from service on the grounds of a generalization."
 >
 >Is that better?

It's a restatement of the same thing.  No, I subscribe completely to the 
concept of "the needs of the service".  The service collects volunteers it 
finds acceptable, or drafts those it requires.  It just as easily dismisses 
anyone it thinks it doesn't need.  It sets its standards because it knows 
(hopefully) what needs to be done and how to do it.  It is not a business 
opportunity, or a club, or a government social agency.  It is a serious 
organization with a difficult job, and there is no right to its membership.

The military rejects enlistment of those 32 and older (if I recall 
correctly), because of the problems it would encounter if it did accept such 
enlistments.  This sweeping generalization rejects over half of our 
population out of hand, even though some could do the job, but the 
generalization is accepted because the generalization is valid.  Do you think 
it's valid?  I do.  I think that similar evidence exists for a similar 
sweeping generalization of female enlistment as well.  Some people find this 
offensive, but the facts remain, and only political pressures keep them from 
being responded to.  I am putting the needs of the service first.  Others 
have other priorities.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:41:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:41:06 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
References: <168.1196d69b.2a7dba32@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00d301c23b48$adaa52e0$a211bd50@martinjd>

>
> I was envisioning them as being simply chemical missiles.  In orbit around
a
> gas giant would be a good place.  The ships have to go there, they can't
go
> all that fast while scooping, and there is a horizon beyond which they'll
> have trouble seeing (if they can see through a horizon at all).  They
> shouldn't need tremendous sensors for such a location.  Or maybe they
could
> be floating just below the surface of the water in a system with only
water
> fuel available.  They wouldn't have to sense much, just a big thing
blocking
> out the sun or maybe a large magnetic disturbance, and their target would
> hardly be moving.

This type of cheap CAPTOR type mine isn't much good against a serisou
warship, but as a deterrent to small vessels or merchant-based corsairs it,
an option (IMO). No good in deep space but seeded at a choke point like
optimium skimming level they might be dense enough to be useful.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:43:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:43:11 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
References: <memo.581429@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <00e701c23b48$fd6a9560$a211bd50@martinjd>

> 
> Oh, and you may have the scenario after Gen Con UK for the website.
> 

You're a sweetie.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:45:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:45:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Declarations of War
References: <19b.65b1e1c.2a7d49d4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4C1847.3361F3DE@mindspring.com>

DN: What is the status of his fleet at Cipango and Cronor?  If he has that much out in my areas,
then his central fleet is weakened.  If I can put two task  forces each on Cipango and maybe Ninjar
then _his_ logistics train will be cut entirely, and they'll provide a welcoming committee to any
Zhodie ships that straggle back home looking for support.  Further I'll send the fleet raider task
force to shoot up whatever they can in other worlds in that area. Two can play this game, only I'll
do it with concentrated task forces. Let the consule at Cronor yell at _his_ commander:  "There are
a thousand frigates at Querion!  Do something!"
I'll leave Jewell exposed and do that.  Then I'll send out some of my task forces individually to
locate and mop up these isolated forces, using an extensive scout network to relay information on
their activities and ship counts.  I'll plot their courses and attempt to determine where they want
to go.  Not that this would be hard to guess anyway -- I'm sure the Zhodies will bypass Pscias and
go for Rethe if they can.
 
A: Zho fleet elements will strike at weak targets on the border, but you won't know if they retired
afterward or are advancing.
 
DN: Assume they're advancing.
 
A: Your intelligence will be a mess of vessel reports,
 
DN: This can be sorted out.  It may take a few hours, but I'm sure my staff is efficient.( A flurry
of coughing breaks out) and while the attacks on minor worlds are trivial from a military
standpoint, those are imperial citizens being shot up. Yes, they will have to wait. Soon it will be
the Zhodies turn to be shot up.
 
A: Some border  worlds will be assaulted by ground forces and placed under occupation. The subsector
dukes will want those worlds retaken. They'll want the raids stopped.
 
DN: Everything in due time.  The Dukes will have to be big boys.  And likely they are.  When the
Zhodie fleet has been rolled back, I'll send in the troop transports.  Not until then. You're trying
to make me panic.  I won't. If the Zhodies have scattered a lot of their fleet through my sector
then I'll roll them up one at a time with my task forces at no risk to myself. It'll take a while,
but it will be done.  Zhodane is mostly at tech 14, and tech 14 wallows in the mud against tech 15.
I've tried every possible Zhodie fleet combination against the Spinward Marches fleet that I can
think of, pitting 7 AE worlds against what Mora and Trin can build, and his only chance is to stick
together. Instead, I will make the Zhodies panic. In 500 years the Imperium has never taken
offensive action against the Zhodane. The Imperium has always reacted, defended, retreated, lost
worlds. I'll make the Zhodies defend and react to me.  I will cut their lines, sit astride their
repair facilities, and put capital ships where they have not been for 500 years, forcing the Zhodies
to
come to me. Riverland and Cronor used to be Imperial. I will have them back. When the Imperial Fleet
reinforcements arrive, I just might get them.


-From a briefing on a proposed Zhodani campaign to the admirals of the Imperial fleets of the Domain
of Deneb aboard the newly commissioned 'Duke of Deneb' 188-1118.
* A autotranscriber malfunction rendered the Archdukes colloquial 'Joies" into 'Zhodies'

IMMTU ;)
Thanks everyone!
-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:47:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:47:12 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was  COTI website)
References: <20020803222559.7D7BC2793F@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00fa01c23b49$63e1f7c0$a211bd50@martinjd>

> 
> So, to those that think Martan, Loren, et al are "spamming" this group
> I politely offer the suggestion..."Go suck eggs!"  

Heh. If you can't announce trav content on the trav website, what's it for?

That said, the "spam" reference was, I belive, tongue in cheek.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:49:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:49:23 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
References: <136.11daab1b.2a7daa90@aol.com>
Message-ID: <010901c23b49$c1301380$a211bd50@martinjd>

> >Mines, even of a CAPTOR type, don't have much area coverage. You'd need a
>  >lot of them to cover an area, though orbits and other choke points are a
>  >possibility.
>
> Well, yes, that's the point.
>
> Does Traveller have any rules for mines?
>

Now there's an idea for a Traveller's Aide... Mines, Missiles and Drones.
Anyone think they can get 15,000 words and a few T20 ship/item designs out
of the topic?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:51:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:51:08 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <200207300931.43410.red@archonet.com>
References: <a1.2b0beec6.2a7744c0@aol.com>
 <m3n0savvj9.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> <200207300931.43410.red@archonet.com>
Message-ID: <p04330105b9721bbfdb97@[143.232.119.186]>

One thing to remember is that there is a psychological difference 
between having to take direct action that will result in your death 
and doing something this is likely to get you killed.  That last bit 
of hope makes a big difference.  I was at the Texas Air Museum (is 
that what it was called?) and they had one of the buzz bombs the 
Germans were rigging to be piloted.  While it was recognized that the 
mission was likely to be suicidal (the pilots signed a form stating 
they knew that) they did give them parachutes so that they could at 
least _try_ and get out.  (though at dive speeds of 500 mph that 
wasn't considered likely....)
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:54:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:54:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Declarations of War
In-Reply-To: <3D4C1847.3361F3DE@mindspring.com>
References: <19b.65b1e1c.2a7d49d4@aol.com> <3D4C1847.3361F3DE@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m31y9fcxd9.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

I'm afraid that your post was well-nigh unreadable, as it was not
wrapped at 80 chars...

72 is even better: it allows folks who do not re-flow text to quote it
without running over.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The pistol is not a weapon; it is an impertinence.  If two men are to
kill one another, they should do so face-to-face, not from a distance,
like vile highwaymen.      --Arturo Perez-Reverte, The Fencing Master

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] prejudice (OT)
Message-ID: <15f.11b58134.2a7dc76b@aol.com>

 >I notice that you're "done here" about the fleet thing. From where I'm
 >sitting, that seems to mean you've dismissed all the arguments I raised and
 >decided that you don't need to think about them. You still haven't
 >adequately explained what you mean to do about an enemy that won't give you
 >that pre-arranged setpiece. Or in any other "real war" situation either.

I think your notion of "real war" and mine are different.  I've explained 
mine over and over again as adequately as I could, and I've tried to respond 
to yours, but I don't feel we're connecting, and I don't feel like my view of 
it is being addressed.  Your stuff was all good, and I didn't dismiss 
anything, but going on 0300 or so I just felt like I was beginning to repeat 
myself, and I'm losing sleep trying to keep up with this mailing list because 
it takes me so long to think and reply.  I think the only way to actually 
address the issues we both brought up is not by talking but by an actual 
campaign game, complete with full background, to see who has it right.  I 
think I'm right, but heck, I'm a virgin, I've never played, so I don't 
actually know.  I'd love to run a game, but I don't see how we could.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 18:09:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 17:09:37 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
References: <15f.11b58134.2a7dc76b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000601c23b4c$a7ca4700$bc0cbd50@martinjd>

I think the only way to actually
> address the issues we both brought up is not by talking but by an actual
> campaign game, complete with full background, to see who has it right.

I think this is the only way - a campaign game, with political rules and
such like. It'd be more simulation than game, but what an interesting
exercise!

Meantime, as we've already agreed, we're coming from such wildly different
points of view that there's no point in further argument... but for the
record, I think you *would* beat me in a HG game, because your viewpoint is
(IMO) more aimed at operating within the game parameters, and your designs
better optimised for that.

But anyway... let's put this interesting debate to bed...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 18:11:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 17:11:13 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Military Psychology
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEKPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <p04330103b9720a71cb73@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <3D4C70A1.852C61C@mindspring.com>

"David P. Summers" wrote:
> 
> At 9:47 PM -0700 8/2/02, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> >  >From: "Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com>
> >
> >>With "freezer pop" soldiers, you might have people who wake
> >>up, fight to the death for a week, then go back to sleep
> >>until the next fight to the death crops up. No down time,
> >>no ability to process what happened before it all starts
> >>again.  Imagine the post-war condition of the average US
> >
> >For this reason, I doubt that the Imperial and Solomani militaries rely
> >heavily on low berth for troop transportation.  The Zhodani may have an edge
> >with better capabilities in psychology.

> It seemed a good deal.  You aren't first into battle (you aren't any
> more likely to get killed since the unfrozen guys get killed first)
> and you don't have to deal with boredom between battles.  Odds are
> you sign up, get frozen, and wake up with all your pay waiting for
> you.
> --IMMTU the frozen watch are a volonteer career force . They are wakened as needed and also every four years for additional training and acclimatization(R&R) if not woken earlier. They receive full pay, and must serve 60 years with wakened time counting double for time in service.



-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 18:21:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 17:21:12 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
In-Reply-To: <memo.581429@cix.compulink.co.uk>
References: <memo.581429@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <200208032020140469.53026F37@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 8/3/2002 at 11:47 PM mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:

>In-Reply-To: <200208031245370897.51623A1B@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
>> BTW, if anyone is attending GenCon this year, be sure to stop by the 
>> QLI booth (#841). Marc will be there as our guest and we'll have copies 
>> of T20 Lite fresh off the presses!
>
>Any plans for a presence at Gen Con UK?
>
>Apart from the T20 lite scenario I'm writing, that is (characters 
>courtesy of Mark Urbin). And our friends at BITS...

Woohoo! No official plans for this year, but next year we will arrange a=
 booth. In the meantime, would copies of T20 Lite to hand out help? I think=
 we have enough time that I might be able to ship some to you after I get=
 back from GenCon here.

>Oh, and you may have the scenario after Gen Con UK for the website.

Thanks!

>PS. Hunter, did you get the e-mail I sent you?

I just went and looked at it after you mentioned it, I must have missed it=
 previously. I sometimes miss them if they come to the email address I use=
 for the TML because they get mixed in with all of the other posts. I do=
 apologize! A reply is on its way.

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 18:30:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Aug  3 17:30:13 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
Message-ID: <F22igG68YuXKL951y1M0002578e@hotmail.com>

From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com>

     "I think he is just trying to draw attention to the new Traveller 
webzine we have opened, rather than anything specific."


Mr. Gordon,

     Why, that is splendid news, sir!  I wish you every success with the new 
webzine.  "More" definitely IS "merrier"!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 18:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Aug  3 17:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] COTI website
Message-ID: <F206YSDMyZFlAWAaPJb00000025@hotmail.com>

From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>

     "The reason I mentioned the site was that we've just added more crunchy 
Traveller goodness, and maybe some tml members haven't seen it yet."


Mr. Dougherty,

     I hadn't and thanks for the heads up!  Mr. Gordon already posted the 
great news about the launch of your webzine.  "More" definitely IS 
"merrier"!
     Thanks again.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 18:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 17:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
Message-ID: <memo.582869@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <200208032020140469.53026F37@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
> Woohoo! No official plans for this year, but next year we will arrange 
> a booth. In the meantime, would copies of T20 Lite to hand out help? I 
> think we have enough time that I might be able to ship some to you 
> after I get back from GenCon here.

It would be good to have you if you can make it. I'll keep you posted on 
dates/locations for next year as soon as WE know :-)

> >Oh, and you may have the scenario after Gen Con UK for the website.
> 
> Thanks!

My pleasure.

> >PS. Hunter, did you get the e-mail I sent you?
> 
> I just went and looked at it after you mentioned it, I must have missed 
> it previously. I sometimes miss them if they come to the email address 
> I use for the TML because they get mixed in with all of the other 
> posts. I do apologize! A reply is on its way.

Reply received & responded to. Sorry, only e-mail I had for you. T'other 
one now safely tucked away for future correspondence.

Oh yes, copies of T20 Lite would be handy. I'll e-mail a postal address 
for you.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 18:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug  3 17:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Gauss Round Velocity
In-Reply-To: <20020803231411.23203.qmail@web13903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B971C9C6.67B02%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/3/02 4:14 PM, Bryn Monnery at littlegreenmen.geo@yahoo.com wrote:

> 
> 1,500mps is believable, the highest MV for a real
> service weapon I know of is the M-16 firing 5.56mm US
> (not 5.56mm NATO) which was a 3.56g round going
> 1050mps.

And the SPIW built by AAI was capable of firing flechettes at around 1500
m/s back in the 1960s.  Also, Hughes managed to get a modified M-16 to fire
at almost double the velocity of a standard round as part of their CAP
project in the mid 1980s.
> 
> However, throwing 4g that fast? That's an ME of
> 4,500j, sufficient to penetrate 22mm of armour steel
> at close range, recoil is less than an SLR though
> (only 6 ms-1kg-1).
> 
> 4,500mps is ridiculous though, twice the muzzle energy
> of a .50 Cal, penetrating 68mm of armour steel.
> 
> Bryn

Not so remarkable when one looks at the performance of current railguns.  We
are speaking of TL12 technology, after all.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 19:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 18:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
In-Reply-To: <memo.582869@cix.compulink.co.uk>
References: <memo.582869@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <200208032111180685.533130CF@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 8/4/2002 at 1:43 AM mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:

>In-Reply-To: <200208032020140469.53026F37@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
>> Woohoo! No official plans for this year, but next year we will arrange 
>> a booth. In the meantime, would copies of T20 Lite to hand out help? I 
>> think we have enough time that I might be able to ship some to you 
>> after I get back from GenCon here.
>
>It would be good to have you if you can make it. I'll keep you posted on 
>dates/locations for next year as soon as WE know :-)

I'm not sure if I can make it, but I would love to and will try like hell!=
 If I can't however, Martin can.

Hunter


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 19:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 18:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Gauss Round Velocity
Message-ID: <200208040113.LZX01145@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>Not so remarkable when one looks at the performance of 
>current railguns.  We are speaking of TL12 technology, after 
>all.

That, and today it's not the size of the rails that are the 
problem (or even the wear and tear).  It's the power 
conditioning equipment.  They're already making progress 
enough to replace the aircraft carrier catapult with a 
railgun.  The power conditioning equipment is already orders 
of magnitude smaller than 10 years ago.  By the time we reach 
TL12...
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 19:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Sat Aug  3 18:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Paging Martin Dougherty
In-Reply-To: <00fa01c23b49$63e1f7c0$a211bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <20020804013343.15643.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>

Martin,

I hadn't heard from you, and was wondering if you got
the info you had asked for.

Let me know, I can send it again if you haven't gotten
it yet.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 19:35:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug  3 18:35:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Gauss Round Velocity
In-Reply-To: <200208040113.LZX01145@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B971D2B3.67B15%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/3/02 6:13 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> That, and today it's not the size of the rails that are the
> problem (or even the wear and tear).  It's the power
> conditioning equipment.  They're already making progress
> enough to replace the aircraft carrier catapult with a
> railgun.  The power conditioning equipment is already orders
> of magnitude smaller than 10 years ago.  By the time we reach
> TL12...

Just in the last couple of years, compulsator power has gone  while size
continues to decline.

For those interested in railguns in general, try
http://home.insightbb.com/~jmengel4/rail/rail-intro.html
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 20:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sat Aug  3 19:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
References: <20020803223629.15105.10842.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <005301c23b5b$c2967c20$2a5d8690@computer>

From: Tyge
> The second thing is that climate unless you do have a uniform world (like
> Venus) will vary, so what is standard climate is a bit like saying "this
> is a mountain world". Rather Star-Wars generalization. A world humans
> would endure on likely would not be so generic.

Actually I've been playing with this silly idea a bit over the last few
months.

If a world is sparsely populated enough, the entire population might live in
a single small area. This area would then be "the world" as far as climate,
geography and so on go.

I was working on a bit of a heretical almost-not-Traveller system, where
systems, worlds and so on are abstracted down to a few important areas, like
the area around the starport, the patch of space around the mainworld, and
so on. (If the PCs go outside the "important areas", new "important areas"
can be created.)

Handling worlds "Star Wars style" would be perfectly acceptable in this
case, as long as you understand what you are doing.

Then again, my other heresy is a bit of a fondness for placing colonies on
non-habitable worlds. Basically I see it as simpler to establish an
artificial terrestrial ecosystem than to muck about with an existing
non-terrestrial one. Such colonies would pretty much be domed, and possess a
relatively uniform climate.

Terraforming could occur in the long-term, of course. These are the most
plausible "habitable worlds", IMHO, since they are made to be suitable for
human settlement. But of course, terraforming takes time, and the scale (and
violence!) of the chemical reactions involved suggest that it would take a
long time. You are not just changing the composition of the atmosphere - you
are changing the composition of the crust. Even if you can force the change
to occur very quickly, I doubt that the geology would settle down in much
less than a thousand years or so. That's the blink of an eye in geological
terms, of course.

A terraformed world would have a full set of climates. The situation where
settlement is limited to a specific area might still occur.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com







From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 20:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 19:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
In-Reply-To: <F22igG68YuXKL951y1M0002578e@hotmail.com>
References: <F22igG68YuXKL951y1M0002578e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <200208032212560742.53699E59@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 8/4/2002 at 12:29 AM Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com>
>
>     "I think he is just trying to draw attention to the new Traveller 
>webzine we have opened, rather than anything specific."
>
>Mr. Gordon,
>
>     Why, that is splendid news, sir!  I wish you every success with the
>new 
>webzine.  "More" definitely IS "merrier"!

Thank you sir! I would like to note that the CotI webzine is for ALL=
 versions of our favorite game, not just T20. We're happy to consider=
 articles and material for publication for any ruleset and milieu, along=
 with 'variant' articles as well.

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 20:40:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 19:40:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Superstition (and movies)
Message-ID: <102.1921e4ba.2a7dede0@aol.com>

>>Several years ago, I was toying with the notion of writing a book of war 
>>movie reviews discussing the relative level of accuracy of each (although I 

>>think it has already been done). GETTYSBURG is one of my faves in this 
>>regard. 
>
>Great film.  "General, I have no division..."

I'm torn as to which scene I like better . . . Sgt. Kilrain declaiming on why 
he's fighting the war ("I'll be treated as _I_ deserve, not as my father 
deserved."), Colonel Chamberlain declaiming on why HE'S fighting the war, or 
the whole Little Round Top sequence, or Lee meditating on soldiering's one 
great trap, or Lee reading the riot act to Stuart ("Your cavalry, General, 
are the eyes of this army . . . without them, we are made blind.") -- or any 
one of a dozen or so more. 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 21:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 20:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Superstition (and movies)
Message-ID: <200208040300.MAB00894@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

LKW says
>I'm torn as to which scene I like better . . .

Nope.  Although I hated the movie Blues Brothers 2000, 
there's a scene where Dan Aykroyd "rallies the troops" with a 
major slam against the current music scene.

I have given a similar speech to youth at a Wizards of the 
Coast store who thought that video games were more fun than 
roleplaying games.  Not sure if I got any converts...

But I did drop Loren's name.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 21:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 20:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
Message-ID: <200208040317.MAB01365@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

(We should come up with a longer list of names below)

You may go play video games if you wish.

Remember this: Walk away now and you walk away from your 
interest in history, your ability to tell a good story, your 
ability to translate dreams into reality; leaving the next 
generation with nothing but recycled, unimaginative first-
person shooters, online quasi-historical strategy games, yet 
another multiplayer NFL game, violence-laden driving 
simulations, and mindless revisions of innumerable cute 
Japanese animations. Depart now and you forever separate 
yourselves from the vital gaming legacies of James Dunnigan, 
Steve Jackson, Gary Gygax, Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank 
Chadwick, Andrew Keith, William Keith, John Harshman, 
Professor Barker, 
and Richard Tucholka.

(Doug says, 'Who is Richard Tucholka?' )

Turn your backs now and you snuff out the fragile candles of 
Board Gaming, Miniatures, Fantasy and Science Fiction 
Roleplaying, and when those flames flicker and expire, the 
light of the world is extinguished because the creative 
thought which has moved mankind through the decades leading 
to the millenium will wither and die on the vine of 
abandonment and neglect. 


________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 22:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 21:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22C8B@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <20803.205539.2T1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Time-Travel is a huge no-no. Do I have something against it? Yes and no.
> It's entertaining and fascinating to speculate on, but it would seriously
> unbalance a campaign.
> I also like the idea that consequences of one's actions are
> irreversable...Time Travel far too often gives one an out to correct
> mistakes.

Well, the theoretical work that physicists have done on the possibility
of time travel in the real world says that two things will be true if
it's possible:

1. You can't travel back before the instant the machione is first
   activated.

2. You can't alter the past. You'd have free will to the exact extent
   that you *don't* know what happened. 

This can frustrate the hell out of people. <eg>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 22:21:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sat Aug  3 21:21:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Superstition (and Movies)
In-Reply-To: <d.2aca729a.2a7ca6f7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4D53F6.19862.BBFCC9@localhost>

On 2 Aug 2002, at 23:24, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> Several years ago, I was toying with the notion of writing a book of war movie
> reviews discussing the relative level of accuracy of each (although I think it
> has already been done). GETTYSBURG is one of my faves in this regard. 

My one beef with the movie (other than those I have with the battle itself) is 
that if Pickett had as many men in real life as he had in the movie, he'd 
have been across that field and half way to Washington before the final 
credits.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 22:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sat Aug  3 21:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <3.0.5.16.20020803121034.44ff804c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <008701c23b70$f1af5210$7400a8c0@matt>

> Which Roman was it that got ripped to shreds in Germany?

Varus, IIRC

Matt



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 22:41:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sat Aug  3 21:41:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Landgrab
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMEFHIKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

I'm landgrabbing Macene, Rhylanor 2612


________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 23:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 22:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <3.0.5.16.20020803123126.44ff6796@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3D4CB61E.AF2B843D@mindspring.com>

"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:
> 
> At 11:12 AM 8/3/2002 EDT, you wrote:
> 
> >And that will work in my favor, as much of the Spinward Population lives in
> >the highly protected worlds of Trin, Mora, Glisten, Rhylanor, and Palique,
> >and the main fleet is very close by to Rethe, Louzy, Lunion, Jewell, and
> >Vilis.  That's almost half of the Spinward Marches on those planets alone.
> 
> My Sword World allies will tie down the Lunion and Glisten fleets. 

The Glisten Fleet is waiting to slag the Swordies and their Forinian
allies. 

> Vargr forces will raid the Coreward ends of Regina and Aramis to draw off fleet
> elements from those subsectors.  Raiders and deep penetration fleets will
> be sent into Regina and Villis for commerce and raiding and hit&run attacks
> against starports capable of repairing navy ships.
> 
> My main thrust will come at Louzy/Jewell and Grant/Jewell.  Cutting off the
> Jewell cluster.  Louzy has no gas giant, and Grant only two, making these
> systems easy to hold.
> 
> With the door barred, and my penetrators wrecking havoc, I move on the
> Jewell cluster itself.  Ruby (1005), Emerald (1006), and Mongo (1204) are
> the first targets. All are relatively low tech, and only Mongo has a Naval
> base.  From there, I send more forces to Lysen (1307).  Lysen doesn't have
> enough people or technology to put up a stiff resitience.  These moves
> would be on a timed basis, with fleets moving according to schedule.
> 
> Once everyhing was secure, I'd move the bulk of my fleets to Jewell (1106)
> along with the invasion force.  Jewell would be a tough nut to crack
> 
> (Divergence, I just had the most amazing case of deja-vu.  I clearly
> remembered typing that exact sentiece before, on this computer.  Weird)
> 
> With you reacting to my previous moves, I have you out of position.  I can
> begin the bombardment of targets on the planet with minimal interference.
> I would send troops down *as quickly as is possible* because in orbit, they
> are targets.  On the ground, they are an asset.  My forces at the other
> worlds have couriers stationed with them; ordered to jump out *the moment*
> a large Imperial force engages my force.  This will give me at least a
> little warning.
> 
> Obviously, there are holes in this attack, since I just came up with it.
> The biggest hole I see is a fleet coming through the Federation of Arden on
> my Rimward flank.  Placing pickets at Zircon (1110), Utoland (1209), Pequan
> (1210), and 871-438 (1510) would give me warning, although I am probably
> short on ships at this point.  Just have to hope that the raiders and
> Swordies are doing their job.
> 
> There, a clear plan with goals.  That's what the Imperial player would also
> need.  There is never a time when allowing massive friendly civilian
> casualties is acceptable.
> --
> 
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 23:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shadowcat)
Date: Sat Aug  3 22:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
In-Reply-To: <200208040317.MAB01365@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D4C6254.25855.23272CD@localhost>

(Doug says, 'Who is Richard Tucholka?' )

Stalking the Night Fantastic, Fringeworthy, FTL 2448


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 23:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 22:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] missiles
Message-ID: <74.20c8274f.2a7e1200@aol.com>

 >It [MT] states that a 100 ton bay used as a magazine can hold
 >13500 missiles, but not launch them,

If the bay was tightly packed with missiles that would indicate that each 
missile container is 10 inches square and less than 5 feet tall.  Such 
missiles will be transported over long distances and subject to much shock 
during transport, and may sit in their canisters for years, so the canister 
will be heavily padded and sealed to provide a long shelf-life and to reduce 
the chance of sympathetic explosions.  Is 10 inches by 5 feet of padded 
cannister really big enough to hold a spacegoing missile?

CT HG2 says zero about it, so I just decided that some of a 50 ton or 100 ton 
missile bay was filled with guidance equipment and gunner positions, with the 
rest of the bay occupied by preloaded sealed cannisters containing each 
salvo.  The gunners initiate launch, the cannister pops open and out go 30 
missiles.  I chose 30 because it seemed to me that a bay would gain better 
use of its missiles than a turret battery because it had better guidance 
equipment rather than simply because it used more missiles, and that made 
sense because missile batteries have to bear before they can shoot.  Having 
each salvo in its own cannister also would make it easy to transport, load, 
unload, and mix-and-match.

 >Not that they've ever fired all 50 b/r's. I think the most
 >they ever used in one engagement is 6 b/r's.

You never can have too many missiles.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 23:15:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug  3 22:15:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
In-Reply-To: <3D4C6254.25855.23272CD@localhost>
Message-ID: <B9720629.67BC4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/3/02 9:08 PM, Shadowcat at res053z0@gten.net wrote:

> (Doug says, 'Who is Richard Tucholka?' )
> 
> Stalking the Night Fantastic, Fringeworthy, FTL 2448
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

Hey, I still have my copy of FTL 2448 somewhere.  Fringeworthy too.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 23:16:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 22:16:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for the Atro-genius Types (was: System Gen
 Help)
In-Reply-To: <20020803210827.89257.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <c9.261a11c4.2a7d38e2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803175336.3b4f0dc8@pop.mindspring.com>

At 02:08 PM 8/3/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>Would it be possible for a planet be captured into an
>L4 or L5 point on a Gas Giant?

Anything is *possible*, but it would be a one in a billion shot.

1. The developing mass of the gas giant will disrupt planetary formation,
so it would need to be a captured world.

2. It would have to enter the system on the *exact* right course at a
precise time at the right speed.

3. The planet would need to enter on the plane of the rest of the system,
and not encounter anything else.

This is incredibly unlikely. Even if it has happened, it's most likely to
be around an outer gas giant and be a fairly small world.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 23:17:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 22:17:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <73.238e61b4.2a7db467@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803180658.3b4f38f8@pop.mindspring.com>

At 06:34 PM 8/3/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>Fully capable men 40 years of age are also barred from enlistment.
There's >a reason.

Yep.  It's called age.  There are definite changes in people between 18 and
40.  Soliders are best when trained as young men.  Or women.

> >Of course, the poor dears can't be expected to understand politics, manage
> >an estate or run a business either. Any you know? they couldn't do it. Not
> >until someone let them try.
>
>They are trying it.  And it's causing far more damage than good.

Wow, you are making a bid for greatness!  You will be in the halls with
such greats as Clif and Leroy.

ObTrav: Worlds with wildly different views on gender roles.  Hit the
players with a world where men are second-class citizens and kept in the
house.  Or one where men and woman are equal, but never seen togehter in
polite society.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 23:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 22:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] 40-year olds
Message-ID: <7e.2b89905d.2a7e16b8@aol.com>

 >>Why does the Army do this?  Because 40 year olds, as a 
 >>whole, have sufficient problems that the Army knows it will 
 >>lose more in attempting to incorporate them than it will 
 >>gain.
 >
 >No, no, no.  The reason the Army won't enlist you is because 
 >the "useful lifetime" of the older soldier is shorter.

Well, now you are citing "the needs of the service" rather than the right to 
serve.  I think the needs of the service should be consistently foremost.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 23:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug  3 22:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] 40-year olds
In-Reply-To: <7e.2b89905d.2a7e16b8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B9720DAD.67BE2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/3/02 10:33 PM, Flykiller@aol.com at Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>>> Why does the Army do this?  Because 40 year olds, as a
>>> whole, have sufficient problems that the Army knows it will
>>> lose more in attempting to incorporate them than it will
>>> gain.
>> 
>> No, no, no.  The reason the Army won't enlist you is because
>> the "useful lifetime" of the older soldier is shorter.
> 
> Well, now you are citing "the needs of the service" rather than the right to
> serve.  I think the needs of the service should be consistently foremost.

It should be noted that the same types of restrictions apply to other
Federal service.  For example, you cannot apply to any federal law
enforcement agency unless you will have enough years of service for
retirement by age 55.  Meaning that after age 35, your too old to be an FBI,
DEA or ATF agent.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 23:48:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 22:48:09 2002
Subject: [TML] missiles
References: <74.20c8274f.2a7e1200@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4CBFD6.E47799B2@mindspring.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> 
>  >It [MT] states that a 100 ton bay used as a magazine can hold
>  >13500 missiles, but not launch them,
> 
> If the bay was tightly packed with missiles that would indicate that each
> missile container is 10 inches square and less than 5 feet tall.  Such
> missiles will be transported over long distances and subject to much shock
> during transport, and may sit in their canisters for years, so the canister
> will be heavily padded and sealed to provide a long shelf-life and to reduce
> the chance of sympathetic explosions.  Is 10 inches by 5 feet of padded
> cannister really big enough to hold a spacegoing missile?

I have slightly different figures but it could be conversion errors. In
MT and IMMTU it is. They only accelerate for 40 or so minutes. Can't do
it in the here and now, but we're talking about an internally consistent
game set in the far future.
 
> CT HG2 says zero about it, so I just decided that some of a 50 ton or 100 ton
> missile bay was filled with guidance equipment and gunner positions, with the
> rest of the bay occupied by preloaded sealed cannisters containing each
> salvo.  The gunners initiate launch, the cannister pops open and out go 30
> missiles.  I chose 30 because it seemed to me that a bay would gain better
> use of its missiles than a turret battery because it had better guidance
> equipment rather than simply because it used more missiles, and that made
> sense because missile batteries have to bear before they can shoot.  Having
> each salvo in its own cannister also would make it easy to transport, load,
> unload, and mix-and-match.

IMMTU those 2 b/r's in the bay are in an internal magazine capable of
handling nuclear or antimatter missiles depending on TL of the ship. The
rest of the bay is filled with targeting and guidance equipment. The
increased factor come from a combination of additional missiles and
better guidance / tracking. Gunners positions are outside the bay except
during maintenance. Additional magazine may added.

The shipping containers are somewhat bigger than 0.1 Kl, that is the
magazine requirement, I'm thinking 0.15 kl or so. 
 
Turrets, unless they have an attached magazine, must be reloaded between
shots. Pity the lone gunner on the free trader humping missiles from the
cargo bay to the turret. All the while being screamed at by the pilot,
navigator, engineer, steward and all the passengers.

>  >Not that they've ever fired all 50 b/r's. I think the most
>  >they ever used in one engagement is 6 b/r's.
> 
> You never can have too many missiles.

I quite agree.

-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was  COTI website)
In-Reply-To: <00fa01c23b49$63e1f7c0$a211bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <20020804060231.5D9A02793A@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/04/02 at 12:55 AM,  "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
said:


>> 
>> So, to those that think Martan, Loren, et al are "spamming" this group
>> I politely offer the suggestion..."Go suck eggs!"  

>Heh. If you can't announce trav content on the trav website, what's
>it for?

>That said, the "spam" reference was, I belive, tongue in cheek.

Perhaps, but spam and eggs are a breakfast treat! <g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:04:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:04:00 2002
Subject: [TML] Alternative Gender Roles in the Third Imperium
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020803180658.3b4f38f8@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <73.238e61b4.2a7db467@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020804010359.00aaa590@minn.net>

The Lord of the Penguins wrote:

>ObTrav: Worlds with wildly different views on gender roles.  Hit the
>players with a world where men are second-class citizens and kept in the
>house.  Or one where men and woman are equal, but never seen togehter in
>polite society.
>-- 
>
>Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Name one. Please.

Preferably between Regina and the Coreward boundary of the 3I. (If not,
I'll write it in as a flashback.)

[Les just woke up after sleeping through the alarm clock's buzzing for one
hour and eleven minutes (a record) thus missing Rocky Horror night at the
Riverview Theatre. Les is not a happy boy right now.]


(Hoping the drive through at the Burger Thing is still open) Les


==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <10.22d0c4c9.2a7e1fae@aol.com>

 >In other words, we're talking about two entirely different situations. I'm
 >discussing defending a hypothetical sector from equally hypothetical (but
 >real for the purposes of the exercise) interstellar fleets, and you're
 >playing High Guard.
 >
 >I don't think we can accept one another's assumptions, so the exercise is
 >pointless..

Well, I'll have to agree there.  You have intelligence information, I don't.  
My fleet is chasing ghosts, while you are concentrating accurately at will.   
 My supply lines are vulnerable, while yours are irrelevant.  You have 
tonnage enough for both a large raiding force and yet also a main fleet 
apparently equal to mine.  Your raiders and decoys advance, do their thing, 
and then fall back, and I never see them coming or going.  You insist I'm in 
a political situation that requires me to defend every last backwater in the 
name of publicity, while you have no such concerns.  And you make it sound 
like I'm defending a bunch of virgin Americans instead of a population that 
has gone through five previous wars and has survived.  You're right, I don't 
accept it.

But I'd love to play it.  You're right, I think victories are achieved 
militarily.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:15:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:15:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
In-Reply-To: <3D4C6254.25855.23272CD@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208032313260.28625-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Sat, 3 Aug 2002, Shadowcat wrote:

> (Doug says, 'Who is Richard Tucholka?' )
> 
> Stalking the Night Fantastic, Fringeworthy, FTL 2448

What's Richard doing these days?  We were sort of friends in the 80's--
knew a lot of the same folks, turned up at parties together, etc.  I think
he may have been at my first wedding.

Anyone hanging out with him, tell him Kiri Morgan says hi-- although I
think you might have to tell him I used to be Kiri Westfall!

Kiri :)

**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] realism
Message-ID: <53.1a729e8e.2a7e21cd@aol.com>

 >  I agree with you that this is a RPG and realism doesn't carry much weight 
 >really...so why not play dnd instead?

Flavor.  Heck, play both.

 >btw.......Imperial nobles IMHO can be modelled after the Catholic Church of 
 >the middle ages. 
 >The held massive amounts of power without holding the reigns of any single 
 >country. Yet no king would dare go against the Pope in those days.

The kings and their subjects believed, and a Pope wields spiritual power.  
Why would an Imperial Emperor be viewed in the same way?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Check Your Landgrabs!
Message-ID: <1ad.629357b.2a7e2295@aol.com>

What is the landgrab?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Paging Martin Dougherty
References: <20020804013343.15643.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <005e01c23b82$c3ebe840$8a0fbd50@martinjd>

> Martin,
> 
> I hadn't heard from you, and was wondering if you got
> the info you had asked for.
> 
> Let me know, I can send it again if you haven't gotten
> it yet.

Uhh? It Morning. Me Brain-Slow. Remind What Information? 
Me Find Breakfast Cereal Now. Kill And Eat Cereal. Cereal Good. 




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:38:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:38:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Paging Martin Dougherty
References: <20020804013343.15643.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <008101c23b82$ff35d320$8a0fbd50@martinjd>

> Martin,
>
> I hadn't heard from you, and was wondering if you got
> the info you had asked for.
>
> Let me know, I can send it again if you haven't gotten
> it yet.

Uhh? It Morning. Me Brain-Slow. Remind What Information?
Me Find Breakfast Cereal Now. Kill And Eat Cereal. Cereal Good.

(I lost ALL my archived email recently, so there's a few loose ends I'm not
even aware of. Is this in reference to the bioweapon stuff, or something
else?)







From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <18c.bd4c936.2a7e26e9@aol.com>

 >>Ah, a general overall fleet attack.  You describe a situation some weeks 
 >>after it has begun.  I think my scouts would give me a more accurate
 picture, 
 >>and sooner.  I will send a message to Deneb to send a fleet.
 >
 >Two months to get there at Jump-6.  Assuming an entire fleet is ready to
 >rush to your aid, 2-3 months to get it to the front.

Oh, I'm sure it wouldn't rush to the front.  That fleet commander will want a 
clear picture of what is going on as he approaches with whatever he 
approaches with.

>>that straggle back home looking for support.  Further I'll send the fleet 
>>raider task force to shoot up whatever they can in other worlds in that
>>area. 

>What are his war goals?  If it is disrupting the Imperial confidence in the
>sector, you will not be able to justify your move politically!  Remember,
>in WWII the US went on the offensive only after Midway.

Well, his goals will be to disrupt general shipping, of course.

 >> Two can play this game, only I'll do it with concentrated task forces.  
Let 
 >>the consule at Cronor yell at _his_ commander:  "There are a thousand 
 >>frigates at Querion!  Do something!"
 >
 >Meanwhile there are a hundred ships at Jewell, Efate, Pixie.. destroying
 >naval bases and advanced starports.

If he gets them in without me seeing them coming.  Why does everyone assume 
I'm blind and he sees all?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <ca.f8487da.2a7e2802@aol.com>

 >Cool.  And in the same time, you have the Zhos coming from everywhere (the
 >Consulate is much smaller, y'know) and the Zho's destroying the ares you
 >were supposed to be defending!  If you are lucky, you'll be killed in
 >battle, and won't be hung for gross incompetence.
 >
 >Mission is everything.  If you have been attacked, your first duty as an
 >Imperial officer is to defend the state.  Taking the war to the enemy's
 >home is a political decision.

It seems I am to be the passive blind recipient of whatever comes my way, 
while my opponent is free to act with clear vision.  You're right.  I'd lose.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <a.22f0514d.2a7e28ce@aol.com>

 >> >You're thniking of everything in terms of a mapboard and counters. I'm
 >> >discussing warfare.
 >>
 >>I'm thinking in terms of what the actually constructed vessels will do 
 >>according to the rules, yes.  You are thinking in terms of imagining what
 you 
 >>think various effects will be.  I'll take the hardware -- such as it is -- 
 >>and I'll have the last word.
 >
 >You are really setting records for honking people off here, you know that?

That was offensive?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 01:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Sun Aug  4 00:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] 40-year olds
In-Reply-To: <200208031505.LZD01427@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <003e01c23c23$c7b6c0c0$1001a8c0@sauron>

John T. Kwon wrote :
> Flykiller says
> >Why does the Army do this?  Because 40 year olds, as a 
> >whole, have sufficient problems that the Army knows it will 
> >lose more in attempting to incorporate them than it will 
> >gain.
> 
> No, no, no.  The reason the Army won't enlist you is because 
> the "useful lifetime" of the older soldier is shorter.  Not 
> because you can't pass the PT test.  
> 
> Training is an expense - and once they spend the money, 
> they expect a useful time period after that, including 
> reserve time.

And in fact, the military is known to waive this rule if 
you are already trained. My father was offered enlistment 
and the automatic rank (in that if he accpted the job, he 
got the rank) of Flight Lieutenant when he was 38, because 
at the time the Air Force needed experienced and trained 
civil engineers _now_, rather than in six years when they 
had trained some. 

> Most Delta Force soldiers are between the ages of 35 and 40.  
> The Army does not have a problem with age as it pertains to 
> performance.

Anyone who harbours any misapprehensions about the combat 
effectiveness of people over forty, needs to go and look 
at the accomplishments of Choyun Miyagi. 

I believe this may have the been the person who 
"The Karate Kid"'s mentor, Mr. Miyagi, was modelled on. 

Or how about the European 747 pilot who qualfied as a "samurai" 
shortly after his 40th birthday? (The newspaper report said 
"samurai", what I think they meant was he was the first European 
to be granted the top rank in kenjutsu.)
  
And then there were the first US astronauts....

If you want both fitness _and_ lots of combat experience, you have 
to get people who over 35. Anyone younger, unless they were born 
to the PLO or something similar, just doesn't have the experience. 

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 01:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 00:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
Message-ID: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>

 >But anyway... let's put this interesting debate to bed...

Concur.  Please ignore any further posts I've made on this.

And thanks.  I've been dying for years to talk to someone about this.  It was 
great.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 01:20:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 00:20:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
 traveller)
Message-ID: <880f68582e.8582e880f6@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Date: Saturday, August 3, 2002 8:57 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in 
traveller)

<<snip>>
> 
> While there is likely a connection between PTSD and rapid 
> reintegration back
> into 'normal' life, experts have also linked PSTD to the extensive 
> use of
> operant conditioning of soldiers that occurred after WWII.
> 
> What provisions does the Imperium make for combat veterans 
> returning to
> civilian life?  Are long voyages home sufficient?

<tongue-in-cheek>

Well, considering how many Trav characters end up with Gun and/or Blade 
as mustering-out benefits, the 3I military doesn't seem to have a major 
problem with PTSD sufferers going postal.... ;-)

</tongue-in-cheek>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 01:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug  4 00:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>

What I'd like to read and participate in is an analysis of fleet
composition, weapons, defensive system and tactics in GURPS Traveller,
and how they differ from other incarnations of Traveller space combat
systems.  Unfortunately I lack the necessary experience with other
Traveller space combat systems :/

>From what I can see, the weapons and defensive equipment available in
GT starship design have just been translated from other Traveller
design systems without regard to how effective they actually are in
GURPS.

I presume that similar things happened between other versions of
Traveller rule sets.  Will it happen again with T20?  Will there be a
starship design and space combat supplement for that?


Do people find it desirable to explore the various consequences of
different combat models, or would they prefer to have the same model
across all incarnations of Traveller?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 01:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sun Aug  4 00:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
 traveller)
In-Reply-To: <880f68582e.8582e880f6@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020804024508.00aac9c0@minn.net>

At 10:19 AM 8/4/2002 +0300, john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:

>Well, considering how many Trav characters end up with Gun and/or Blade 
>as mustering-out benefits, the 3I military doesn't seem to have a major 
>problem with PTSD sufferers going postal.... ;-)
>
></tongue-in-cheek>

I don't recall postal workers being a problem back when the LBB's came out.

Though there was a bit of fuss being raised over Sun Set Loony and his
followers.  ;-)


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 01:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Sun Aug  4 00:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
 <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <200208040353580835.54A1D865@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 8/4/2002 at 5:34 PM Timothy Little wrote:

>I presume that similar things happened between other versions of
>Traveller rule sets.  Will it happen again with T20?  Will there be a
>starship design and space combat supplement for that?

T20 has the starship design rules (along with everything else!) in the main=
 book. They are based directly off of High Guard (v2). There are some minor=
 differences, but ships designed with either system should be readily=
 interchangable.

There are two sets of combat rules presents, a basic set that is abstract=
 and deals more with the roleplaying than mechanics, and the advance combat=
 system which is much more tactical and uses 2 'megahexes' to plot long=
 range and short range tactical movement.

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 02:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 01:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: HULL THICKNESS LIMITATION
Message-ID: <200208040804.g7484Pw19092@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Flykiller@aol.com
>Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat HULL THICKNESS LIMITATION
...
> >HULL
> >185.000 tons standard, 2,590.000 cubic meters, Planetoid Configuration
>
>In a Planetoid Configuration of this size the maximum thickness of the outer 
>hull is 0.6 meters and likely much less.  If this ship were 185,000 tons, the 
>maximum outer thickness of the outer hull would be 6.0 meters.  Yet in both 
>cases they are considered to be naturally armor 3.  I think there should be a 
>lower limit on allowable tonnages for Planetoid and Buffered Planetoid ships.

  Sure, but that function also applies to armour on ships.

  See also Mr. Thrash' essay on internal structure issues for large ships.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 02:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 01:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
 <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

Hello Tim,
  The missile damage rules in GURPS TRAVELLER make missile craft that much
  more deadly than they were in any other TRAVELLER incarnation.  I
  personally do not use the GURPS STARSHIP combat rules as presented, nor
  am I pleased with rendition of the Meson weapons in the GURPS TRAVELLER
  rule set.  Having said that however, I would be pleased to discuss the
  topic matter you proposed...

            Hal



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 02:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Aug  4 01:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020803180658.3b4f38f8@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <3.0.5.16.20020803180658.3b4f38f8@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m3lm7njaot.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes:

> At 06:34 PM 8/3/2002 EDT, you wrote:
> 
> > Fully capable men 40 years of age are also barred from enlistment.
> > There's a reason.
> 
> Yep.  It's called age.  There are definite changes in people between
> 18 and 40.  Soliders are best when trained as young men.  Or women.

When I visited the Naval Academy at the end of my brother's plebe
summer, I recall a certain amount of puzzlement when watching the
plebes parading by.  A portion of them were smaller than my 11 yr. old
brother, and skinnier too (a fair accomplishment, that).  I recall
thinking to myself that I though only 17+ yr. olds were allowed in.
Then I took a closer look.  Every one of those `boys' was a girl.

In fairness, at the parade at the end of his midshipman career the
differences were not quite so pronounced.

> ObTrav: Worlds with wildly different views on gender roles.  Hit the
> players with a world where men are second-class citizens and kept in
> the house.

I believe that at least one of those already exists...

> Or one where men and woman are equal, but never seen togehter in
> polite society.

That'd be odd.  What's the mechanism?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
But it's more than that, of course; bad spelling just isn't respectable.
You may, perhaps, want to lament this fact.  You are free to do so.  The
fact remains.                                            --John Mitchell

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 02:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Sun Aug  4 01:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was  COTI website)
In-Reply-To: <20020804060231.5D9A02793A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPGEAHEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Was that spam and eggs
or spam, spam egs and spam?

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Eris Reddoch
Sent: Sunday, 4 August 2002 2:03 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was COTI website)


On 08/04/02 at 12:55 AM,  "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
said:


>> 
>> So, to those that think Martan, Loren, et al are "spamming" this group
>> I politely offer the suggestion..."Go suck eggs!"  

>Heh. If you can't announce trav content on the trav website, what's
>it for?

>That said, the "spam" reference was, I belive, tongue in cheek.

Perhaps, but spam and eggs are a breakfast treat! <g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 02:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Sun Aug  4 01:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPGEAHEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPGEAHEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
Message-ID: <200208040445160020.54D0CCA6@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 8/4/2002 at 4:21 PM Antony Farrell wrote:

>Was that spam and eggs
>or spam, spam egs and spam?

Ok gotta keep it on topic!

Pardons if this has actually been covered previously.

So does SPAM survive the Rule of Man, the Long Night and into the Third=
 Imperium? If so, is it just a Solomani thing, or have the Vilani and=
 others come to enjoy this uniquely Terran... ummm .... stuff? I'm just=
 picturing a group of adventurers finding an old Rule of Man cache,=
 stockpiled with cans of good old SPAM!

Inquiring minds want to know!

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 02:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Sun Aug  4 01:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <20020803203103.12400.34750.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentr
 al.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804013527.009f91d0@mailhost.efn.org>

>The program was successful.  The number of troops firing in combat went from
>10-30% to over 90%.  Many psychiatrists and others in the field have
>suggested that this operant conditioning may have had deleterious effects in
>that it short circuits the natural human reluctance to kill.

Which was, of course, precisely the intended result.  The real trick is 
turning that reflex back ON again after you've deliberately broken 
it.  This is a little harder than beating a sword back into a plowshare; 
more like unscrambling an egg.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 03:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 02:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <25.2b8bf94f.2a7e4e43@aol.com>

In a message dated 04/08/02 09:24:19 GMT Daylight Time, ruhl@4dv.net writes:


> Or one where men and woman are equal, but never seen togehter in
> polite society.

That'd be odd.  What's the mechanism?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

One option is visible fertility - humans are unusual in that we don't know 
when women are in oestrus. In a society where that didn't exist there is 
likely to be tight social control over gender interaction.

You might see harem based families (K'Kree) or you might see a society where 
males and females have parrallel societies with extremely ritualised methods 
of interaction, particularly if women tend to become fertile at around the 
same time.

One interesting possibilty is Vagr society where it would be obvious to every 
male within quite a distance that the high ranking, young female en route to 
take part in a political wedding and placed in the care of the PCs by her 
doting (if somewhat inflexible, powerful and violent father) has just come 
"on heat" for the first time...

Do male Aslan mark their territory?

"Elmer that danged tomcat's peeing on the airlock again! Go own scat, shoo - 
you pee on it you pay for it!"

Charles

I addressed some cheerful chit-chat at the man opposite but was rewarded with 
grunt. I tried the man next to me but he just looked at the gentleman I had 
tried first and said "Do you know what he's talking about?" At this point I 
realised I was getting out my depth but the Dean stepped in and saved me, "Oh 
don't worry about it" he said, "They're mathematicians - we never talk to 
them."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 05:12:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 04:12:10 2002
Subject: [TML] 40-year olds
Message-ID: <memo.591614@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <003e01c23c23$c7b6c0c0$1001a8c0@sauron>
> And in fact, the military is known to waive this rule if 
> you are already trained. My father was offered enlistment 
> and the automatic rank (in that if he accpted the job, he 
> got the rank) of Flight Lieutenant when he was 38, because 
> at the time the Air Force needed experienced and trained 
> civil engineers _now_, rather than in six years when they 
> had trained some. 

I was invited back once, to a Reservist unit, at age 40, living the other 
end of the country to their base, and with responsibility for a small 
child. I had skills they were after...

... didn't work out in the end, but I had fun visiting them :-)

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 05:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 04:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <20020804054809.26103.98485.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17bJb8-0007Wi-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

> In mail you write:
> 
> > Time-Travel is a huge no-no. Do I have something against it? Yes and
> > no. It's entertaining and fascinating to speculate on, but it would
> > seriously unbalance a campaign. I also like the idea that
> > consequences of one's actions are irreversable...Time Travel far too
> > often gives one an out to correct mistakes.
> 
> Well, the theoretical work that physicists have done on the
> possibility of time travel in the real world says that two things will
> be true if it's possible:
> 
> 1. You can't travel back before the instant the machione is first
>    activated.
> 
> 2. You can't alter the past. You'd have free will to the exact extent
>    that you *don't* know what happened. 

Actually, from what I've read, those are only true *if* causality is 
always preserved.  If it is possible to utterly toss causality out the 
window, then time travel can involve whatever you want.  It's 
interesting to me that preservation of causality seems something 
almost all phyicists assume to be true w/o having any absolute 
necessity that the world actually operates this way.  We haven't 
seen any obvious causality violations, but until last century we also 
never saw any obvious relativistic effects.  Personally, I think the 
universe would be a considerably more interesting (in all possible 
meanings of this word) place is causality is not strictly preserved.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 05:34:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sun Aug  4 04:34:05 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
References: <ca.f8487da.2a7e2802@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4D10E8.FE3A4CDB@mindspring.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> 
>  >Cool.  And in the same time, you have the Zhos coming from everywhere (the
>  >Consulate is much smaller, y'know) and the Zho's destroying the ares you
>  >were supposed to be defending!  If you are lucky, you'll be killed in
>  >battle, and won't be hung for gross incompetence.
>  >
>  >Mission is everything.  If you have been attacked, your first duty as an
>  >Imperial officer is to defend the state.  Taking the war to the enemy's
>  >home is a political decision.
> 
> It seems I am to be the passive blind recipient of whatever comes my way,
> while my opponent is free to act with clear vision.  You're right.  I'd lose.
> 

Damn mind rapers! Lets kill some Joies!


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 06:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Aug  4 05:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <memo.561259@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3D4DC34C.24200.5FD4B2@localhost>

On 2 Aug 2002 at 23:54, Megan Robertson wrote:

> In-Reply-To: <02Aug2.151432pdt.119054@gw.city.vancouver.bc.ca>
> > > On Fri, 2 Aug 2002 Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> > 
> > <SNIP>
> > 
> > > I've been trying to decide whether or not to killfile you for a 
> > > while--
> > > thanks for helping me out.
> > 
> >  Moi aussi.
> 
> I am laughing too hard to issue the requisite command.
> 
> Mexal.
> former infantry sergeant of the female persuasion.

Somehow I don't think this idea will get very far over here. About 1-in-
6 (IIRC) of our military personnel are female, and there are now no 
positions that they are prohibited from entering (Ops Diver and SAS 
being opened to female personnel about a year ago). Moving females back 
into separate support organisations would utterly cripple what little 
military we still have.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 06:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Aug  4 05:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <40.21b2d6f0.2a7cfea7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4DC641.25712.6B6046@localhost>

On 3 Aug 2002 at 5:38, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>  >And I daresay that if we have women serving in full combat capacity
>  >under the regimes of either seperate standards (i.e. where they must
>  >not meet the same standards as men) or reduced standards (e.g. I
>  >understand that two-man stretcher teams are now four or more), we will
>  >see plenty of human beings who die miserably because their comrades
>  >are not up to the task.
> 
> Actually, I'll bet we won't.  The military is talking now about how much 
> future warfare will be on the level of special ops, utilizing local troops 
> and only sending in special forces to coordinate bomb strikes, like in 
> Afghanistan.
> 
> Army?  What army?

I'll believe that when I see it. This sort of talking has always turned 
out to be wishful thinking in the past, and I see no reason why it 
isn't now. It's all very well while you're thrashing low-tech thrid-
worlders, but sooner or later there'll be another first-world vs first-
world scrap, and spec ops teams relying on vast amounts of support just 
won't cut it.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 06:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Strain)
Date: Sun Aug  4 05:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020804113405.2614.19201.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001001c23bb4$101d4160$92aa5940@dixienet.com>

MISSION: Get EVERYBODY on the list.
METHOD  act in a resonably manner, be polite, but challenge EVERYTHING they
say in response to your comments.
Call them idiots - in a polite manner of course. Act as if YOUR word is
God's and thier's at best ravings.


My take:  POINTLESS -- Why pointless? Because you set out to waste bandwith
with false agruements!

This was the FIRST  'agreement" made in one complete week.
************
>I don't think we can accept one another's assumptions, so the exercise is
 >pointless..
From: Flykiller@aol.com
Well, I'll have to agree there.

*************
From: Flykiller@aol.com ate: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 02:11:58 EDT
>In other words, we're talking about two entirely different situations.
(SNIPPED OUT) ...ercise) interstellar fleets, and you're >laying High Guard.
I don't think we can accept one another's assumptions, so the exercise is
pointless..

Well, I'll have to agree there.  You have intelligence information, I don't.
(SNIPPED OUT)    like I'm defending a bunch of virgin Americans instead of a
population that
has gone through five previous wars and has survived.  You're right, I don't
accept it.

But I'd love to play it.  You're right, I think victories are achieved
militarily.

CONCLUSION:  guy wanted to argue, no play a game - but starting fights IS
his game.

SETup.... THIS IS SIMULATION ONLY NOT A LIVE EXERCISE

FFW map.. place all units as described on map according  to fleet doctrine
using ALL FFW RULES.

Opposite side SETSUP on DIFFERENT map. Opponents TRY to find out "what's
there" using ships moving one jump per week

ONLY the Master sees BOTH fleet positions - EVER. Opponents find out by
ships finding each other. Politial rules prevent FLEETS ( 5 ships per
group ) from crossing borders with declarations of war made.

Think you can handle that? If not SHUT UP!! John Strain


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 06:38:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Sun Aug  4 05:38:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for the Atro-genius Types (was: System Gen
 Help)
In-Reply-To: <20020804054809.26103.98485.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentr
 al.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020804141737.00ac52f0@mail.pi.se>

Mr.Berry wrote:

> >Would it be possible for a planet be captured into an
> >L4 or L5 point on a Gas Giant?
>
>Anything is *possible*, but it would be a one in a billion shot.
>
>1. The developing mass of the gas giant will disrupt planetary formation,
>so it would need to be a captured world.
>
>2. It would have to enter the system on the *exact* right course at a
>precise time at the right speed.
>
>3. The planet would need to enter on the plane of the rest of the system,
>and not encounter anything else.
>
>This is incredibly unlikely. Even if it has happened, it's most likely to
>be around an outer gas giant and be a fairly small world.

I'm not so sure - I'm not an astrophysicist - but this depends on 
definitions. If the world comes from some other system I'd agree it is very 
unlikely.

But if the world is captured from a different orbit in the same solar 
system, possibly because of orbital migration, this may be a not too 
uncommon occurrence. The possibility of having gas giants in such 
resonances is investigated in this interesting arXiv preprint by Gregory 
Laughlin and John Chambers titled "Extrasolar Trojans: The Viability and 
Detectability of planets in the 1:1 Resonance"

  http://arXiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0204091

Maybe it would be courteous to provide some sort of description of such 
links to the people on a mailing list not having time to check  all links 
up, I'll recycle a brief recap I myself did somewhere else. If you are not 
interested in planet generation, skip to the next message as this gets 
long-ish.

Laughlin/Chambers think there is a possibility for large planets to be in a 
1:1
resonance. That is, one planet makes one orbit while the other makes one.
We have examples of such resonance among moons around Saturn, and among
Jupiter's large bunch of Trojan asteroids. If we had a space station in
LG-4 or LG-5 it would be in 1:1 resonance with the Moon, and so on.
LG-points are only stable for certain masses. You do not have such around
Pluto/Charon or around most binary stars. However, that is only one type of
1:1 orbit resonance possible - Saturn's moons give more examples of moons
"switching" orbits and such.

What L/C does is identify three types of 1:1 resonances stable for a solar
system lifetime. The first one is a situation where the planets and the
star form an equidistant triangle, or if you so like, one planet is in the
other planet-sun system's LG-4 point. This situation would be stable for
planets where the combined mass is less than 0.03812 of the primary (so it
would work on Jupiter-size worlds), the planets would oscillate in
tadpole-like orbits but in principle they would stay. However, if the
planets were disturbed out of this stability, it is possible to have
another kind of resonance.

In this second type, the planets involved are of roughly equal size move
around in their orbit it about 180 degree separation (one planet on each
side of the star). This is also a stable situation, though there is a bit
of oscillation. In this case, the planets cannot be as massive. For a
sun-type star, the limit is about 0.4 Jupiter masses, so Saturn-size gas
giants could be stable. (This is an example of horseshoe orbits)

The third and more odd type is where two planets have different orbits and
by interaction at exchange orbits, so to speak. Imagine having one planet
with low eccentricity and one with high eccentricity. These worlds would on
the order of tens to hundreds of orbits (shorter for heavier planets) cause
the other world to get gradually more or less eccentricity by exchanging
angular momentum. This situation could be stable for planetary masses up to
about 0.035 of the primary.

The first two examples of 1:1 resonance may be rather common, or so the
authors think. It is possible for planets slightly smaller than Jupiter
that it is possible to form a secondary planet core in the Trojan point, as
lower-mass gas giants do not "clear out" the disc as efficiently. Another
possibility is that the proto-planets collide and create a double core, and
as this double planet migrate inward* in the early solar system the
stability radii decrease, and the planet-planet orbit is instable and the
worlds end up in the first type of resonance, which can be further
disturbed out to the second one. (Or vice versa)

The third type is bound to be more rare, but it could happen in a situation
where three larger planets interact. One is ejected and the remaining two
form a 1:1 angular momentum resonance. One could imagine the odd climate
shift a stable moon around such a gas giant would experience when over a
800-year span the eccentricity changes drastically.

*Another paper suggests the chances are very high jovian worlds migrate
from where they are formed. Either inward or outward. Possibly our Jupiter
represents a minority which formed at the right time to stay just outside
the snow line, and is among the 10-15% of planetary systems having such
jovians. Side note: planets in 1:1 resonance would likely keep the
resonance when in orbital migration.

Enough said.

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 06:39:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Aug  4 05:39:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <memo.572870@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3D4DC91F.22100.769295@localhost>

On 3 Aug 2002 at 13:13, Megan Robertson wrote:

> Mexal (not sniper-trained - in the British Army they only accept right 
> handers... Grrr.)

Ah. That was never a factor in my case - I pissed off the wrong officer 
shortly before the paper-work was to be passed along. :(

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 07:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug  4 06:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
Message-ID: <200208041300.MAV01414@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Azalais Malfoy asks
>What's Richard doing these days?  

He's got a website up - 
http://users.twave.net/b13/
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 07:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sun Aug  4 06:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020804113405.2614.19201.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <001001c23bb4$101d4160$92aa5940@dixienet.com>
Message-ID: <003601c23bb9$68924480$0616bd50@martinjd>

>
> ONLY the Master sees BOTH fleet positions - EVER. Opponents find out by
> ships finding each other. Politial rules prevent FLEETS ( 5 ships per
> group ) from crossing borders with declarations of war made.


We did this in a Napoleonic context. What frustration! Corps commanders were
players, as was army commander (me). Just getting them to send meaningful
information back to me was well-nigh impossible.

At one point, I sent the fifth repetition of an order to attack to my
cavalry corps commander (I could see him from my command position). The
order? "Enemy infantry and guns deploying to your front. Attack them.
Charge! Charge! Charge them NOW! Attack them immediately!. Confirm receipt."
(I was getting cranky)

The confirmation came back "Cannot attack. My cuirassiers are in front of my
lancers. Must redeploy for maximum effectivenesss." (He'd been fiddling with
his deployments for 3 hours game-time and was now under artillery fire)

My final order: "To: General XXXX (Cuirassier division commander, NPC).
Arrest or shoot your corps commander, and attack enemy to your front.
Immediate. Deliver via Corps HQ."

Well, it got him moving.

But seriously, the comm delay and limited intelligence turned a wargame into
a nightmare. A system of courier simulation and player-subordinates who
won't necesssarily obey orders helps too...








From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 07:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun Aug  4 06:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was COTI website)
Message-ID: <F202T3kMUVfNIJWNDIT00000440@hotmail.com>

From: "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>

     "IMO, I don't mind occasional reminders of "what you've got" and where 
it is, I don't mind announcements when you've got something new and 
exciting, I don't mind you asking us for our input on things, and I
don't mind you giving us your input on things. In fact, I appreciate it, and 
hope you keep it up!"


Mr. Reddoch,

     You are, of course, correct sir.
     My lame attempt at humor backfired and was in poor taste.  Yet another 
Whipsnadian faux pas inflicted on the List. (sigh)
     Mea culpa.

     "So, to those that think Martin, Loren, et. al. are "spamming" this 
group I politely offer the suggestion..."Go suck eggs!"

     I've already bought a dozen, will that be enough?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 07:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Scott Ayres)
Date: Sun Aug  4 06:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Movies
In-Reply-To: <102.1921e4ba.2a7dede0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020804135041.73249.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com>

re: GETTYSBURG movie...
  The same crew is putting together at least 2 more
movies in the same vein as GETTYSBURG - based on
original author's son's works.  Not sure if they're
for theater or TV release. Possible '03 release?

re: Movie historical (and book) accuracy
  I hang out with several military history types
(professors and non-profs).  There's a few complaints
with GETTYSBURG's (and others') historical accuracy or
getting the wrong people in the wrong roles.  Some 
can't stand Short's accent, Berringer's false beard,
or this aspect or that.  I enjoyed the movie
regardless.  _Something_ is better than nothing.
  Case in point: PEARL HARBOR.  I took my kids.  They
liked it, I shuddered.  But at a recent 13th b-day
party for my daughter, her friends _wanted_ to see it.
 Who'd of thought that five 13-yr girls would want to
see a "war" movie?  My kids (10 to 16'ish) attend some
of the finest public schools in my state or the
nation, yet have trouble remembering who was who (and
why) in what war.  I am amazed how much of what I grew
up with and thought "important" is now so much chaff
(WW2 was vs. the Axis _not_ the VC, etc.)

  So how does this relate to Traveller?  A recent
thread concerned the movie & book for STARSHIP
TROOPERS.  ST is surely food for the inaccuracy of
book to movie topic, yet it does generate interest in
the genre.  Flipping through the channels a couple
weeks and it was on cable...  I watched the portion
where the troop ship was falling apart after receiving
fire from the planet.  I'd never noticed the external
scenes to the degree I did before: individual people
were falling out (away) of the ship as it ripped
apart.  Don't remember ever seeing that in a movie
before.  I also noticed the proximity of ships to each
other.  I know it's "Hollywood" and _this_ movie,
but... 

OT: has anyone ever concerned the proximity of ships
to each other in close orbit and planetary
bombardment?  How close is too close?  Does a fleet
turn the night sky bright with the multitude of
invading ships?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 08:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 07:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <200208040353580835.54A1D865@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
References: <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
 <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804100230.026b7e58@192.168.0.1>

At 03:53 AM 8/4/2002 -0400, Hunter Gordon wrote:
>On 8/4/2002 at 5:34 PM Timothy Little wrote:
> >I presume that similar things happened between other versions of
> >Traveller rule sets.  Will it happen again with T20?  Will there be a
> >starship design and space combat supplement for that?
>T20 has the starship design rules (along with everything else!) in the 
>main book. They are based directly off of High Guard (v2). There are some 
>minor differences, but ships designed with either system should be readily 
>interchangable.
>There are two sets of combat rules presents, a basic set that is abstract 
>and deals more with the roleplaying than mechanics, and the advance combat 
>system which is much more tactical and uses 2 'megahexes' to plot long 
>range and short range tactical movement.

I'll knock off a couple of ship designs for review by the list when I get 
my copy.
Until then, I have two nice new canes from CaneMasters to keep me amused.
Ok, one's for my dad, but I gotta do some quality check on it first...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Blend 'B', meanwhile, is a PROUD blend, defiant yet petulant...a blend
that grabs you, shakes you by the collar and cries, 'ACCEPT me, damn you,
or turn me away-BUT FOR GOD'S SAKE DON'T POLLUTE ME WITH NON-DAIRY
CREAMER!'" - Tripp Biscuit while coffee tasting.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 09:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 08:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: 40-year-olds
Message-ID: <194.ae860e2.2a7e9fc4@aol.com>

After GDW went OOB, but before the SJ Games offer came up, I tried to get a 
job outside of gaming (technical writing, etc.). Nobody (NOBODY) was much 
interested in hiring me, and a couple of people (one at the employment 
office, one at a job fair I attended) said that "at your age" absent an MBA 
or a really advanced degree in something in demand at the moment, I had 
little hopes of a job where I wasn't asking "You want fries with that?" or 
mopping floors.

I tried getting work outsid of gaming -- nobody wants you if you're 40+. The 
military is not unusual in this regard.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 09:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Rutherford)
Date: Sun Aug  4 08:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: 40-year-olds
In-Reply-To: <194.ae860e2.2a7e9fc4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804112452.012467a8@mail.comcast.net>

At 11:18 AM 8/4/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>After GDW went OOB, but before the SJ Games offer came up, I tried to get a
>job outside of gaming (technical writing, etc.). Nobody (NOBODY) was much
>interested in hiring me, and a couple of people (one at the employment
>office, one at a job fair I attended) said that "at your age" absent an MBA
>or a really advanced degree in something in demand at the moment, I had
>little hopes of a job where I wasn't asking "You want fries with that?" or
>mopping floors.
>
>I tried getting work outsid of gaming -- nobody wants you if you're 40+. The
>military is not unusual in this regard.

It's just as well for the rest of us that you were "forced" retain a job 
*in*side gaming!


Bill Rutherford
worj@comcast.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 10:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 09:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was COTI website)
In-Reply-To: <F202T3kMUVfNIJWNDIT00000440@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804120536.025855a0@192.168.0.1>

At 01:16 PM 8/4/2002 +0000, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
[snip]
>     I've already bought a dozen, will that be enough?

I'd say that the humble apology was enough.
Mr. Whipsnade should watch his cholesterol.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ferret: Chaos with fur, claws and an odd smell.
          http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 10:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Sun Aug  4 09:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Taxes
In-Reply-To: <85.1f38e034.2a7d1f78@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000501c23bd4$ab74f6b0$6501a8c0@Darla>

IMTU the Imperium gets at 10% tariff on the value of all goods shipped
interstellar, plus 10% of the fares charged for interstellar passage.
The Imperium does not levy any direct taxes on individuals.

Payments from planetary governments to the Imperium vary widely, and are
always on a case-by-case basis for each world, codified in the treaty by
which the planet joined (i.e. recognized the authority of) the Imperium
and/or the feudal contract between the planet's ruling noble and the
Emperor.

TWB

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com [mailto:tml-
> admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Flykiller@aol.com
> Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 6:59 AM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Taxes
> 
>  >TCS says its a head count
> 
> Actually, it doesn't.  It says "... ; Cr500 is the amount of naval tax
> paid
> by the average citizen ; ..."
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 10:34:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Sun Aug  4 09:34:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Pilots of the Future (was: warship optimization)
In-Reply-To: <002e01c23ad4$cbcbbd00$1d17bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <000601c23bd4$abfd1270$6501a8c0@Darla>

> 
> Main problem with drones is the ECM/ECCM/Jamming seesaw.
> 
> And control lags over combat distances in space, OC.
> 

That may be true of drones, but unmanned combat aircraft will be
autonomous to a large degree.  I suspect that "video game reflexes" will
not be useful skills in operating them - mission planning will be more
important.

TWB


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
References: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPGEAHEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com> <200208040445160020.54D0CCA6@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3D4D5E9F.4000707@telocity.com>

Hunter Gordon wrote:

>On 8/4/2002 at 4:21 PM Antony Farrell wrote:
>
>>Was that spam and eggs
>>or spam, spam egs and spam?
>>
>
>Ok gotta keep it on topic!
>
>Pardons if this has actually been covered previously.
>
>So does SPAM survive the Rule of Man, the Long Night and into the Third Imperium? If so, is it just a Solomani thing, or have the Vilani and others come to enjoy this uniquely Terran... ummm .... stuff? I'm just picturing a group of adventurers finding an old Rule of Man cache, stockpiled with cans of good old SPAM!
>
>Inquiring minds want to know!
>
Wait! There's good spam, and there's old spam, but there just *ain't* no 
good old spam! <g>

And yes, canned spiced ham has survived  IMTU, at least....along with 
canned hash, canned tuna, canned groat, ad nausium...<g>

Eris


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was COTI website)
References: <F202T3kMUVfNIJWNDIT00000440@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D4D5FBB.9000503@telocity.com>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

> From: "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>
>
>     "IMO, I don't mind occasional reminders of "what you've got" and 
> where it is, I don't mind announcements when you've got something new 
> and exciting, I don't mind you asking us for our input on things, and I
> don't mind you giving us your input on things. In fact, I appreciate 
> it, and hope you keep it up!"
>
>
> Mr. Reddoch,
>
>     You are, of course, correct sir.
>     My lame attempt at humor backfired and was in poor taste.  Yet 
> another Whipsnadian faux pas inflicted on the List. (sigh)
>     Mea culpa.
>
>     "So, to those that think Martin, Loren, et. al. are "spamming" 
> this group I politely offer the suggestion..."Go suck eggs!"
>
>     I've already bought a dozen, will that be enough?
>
>
>     Sincerely,
>     Larsen
>
Why,  of course, Mr. Whipsnade!  But please don't forget the spam. As I 
said spam and eggs, a breakfast treat. <g>

Eris


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:11:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:11:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <m3y9bndi8f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEKFEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>> > That kind of setup might be cheap when it came to starship life
>> > support costs, but I imagine the impact on the soldiers' psyches
>> > would be extreme.
>>
>> Not if they were only asleep during jumps.  "Good morning, we're
>> passing through Regina and the captain decided you should all spend
>> some money there for a few days."  And soldiers won't be spending
>> years on ships anyway--they'll only be there when in transport.
>> Kind of hard to practice armored maneuvers on the mess deck.
>
>No, 'cause they'd still not get the full rest needed.  My
>greatgrandfather and grandfather took well over a month to return to
>the US after WWI & WWII; my father was back in college in 48 or so
>hours after his time in Vietnam.  Granted, that's _some_ rest time,
>but it's not nearly enough.  You don't find as much PTSD in fellows
>who got to slowly make their way back home, adjust to the new reality
>&c.; you find quite a lot in guys who are plucked up from one
>situation and dropped in another.
>

This brings up an interesting point. Does it go the other way too? Most U.S.
soldiers had a good month between the time they left CONUS and the time they
hit the lines in Europe, even during the most active time of the war. Today
soldiers in Georgia can be in a war zone in less than 48 hours. Does this
also contribute to PTSD? How does it effect their combat readiness.

ObTrav: This would not be a problem for interstellar troops, since minimum
travel time is a week. Maximum travel time could be much higher. (Which is
why I especially have a problem with GT designs which use bunkrooms.) Could
a really large troop transport incorporate a habitat module to use as a
training area? It strikes me that a holoventure module might work really
well for battledress units and vehicle drivers (tank, fighter, etc.) but
that regular troops will need more room to practice small unit tactics,
unless the holoventure studios work as good as ST holodecks.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
 <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]>

At 4:14 AM -0400 8/4/02, hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>Hello Tim,
>   The missile damage rules in GURPS TRAVELLER make missile craft that much
>   more deadly than they were in any other TRAVELLER incarnation.  I
>   personally do not use the GURPS STARSHIP combat rules as presented, nor
>   am I pleased with rendition of the Meson weapons in the GURPS TRAVELLER
>   rule set.  Having said that however, I would be pleased to discuss the
>   topic matter you proposed...

Missiles are very damaging.  However, they also can be intercepted. 
The utility of missiles depends on how many missiles you have vs how 
much point defense you foe has.  I think, in the setting, there is 
the usual game of trying to get you measures to overcome the foes 
countermeasures.  However, dropping missiles entirely, going heaving 
into point defense, and  using other weapons for a kill can be a 
viable route.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for the Atro-genius Types (was: System Gen
 Help)
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020804141737.00ac52f0@mail.pi.se>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020804141737.00ac52f0@mail.pi.se>
Message-ID: <p04330101b97312dbe956@[198.123.22.192]>

Note: you don't come in from out of the solar system and drop into an 
orbit.  To capture _any_ body from outside the solar system requires 
interactions with other bodies (otherwise the velocity you built up 
comeing in just pushes you right back out again).  If you sling shot 
around something and loose velocity, you will settle into some sort 
of orbit (barring collisions).  However, this orbit will be perturbed 
over time and generally settle into some smaller subset of stable 
orbits.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <02080313391901.00601@linux>

>  >> How serious is the trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took place
>  >> because the small island of England was not self-sufficient in either
>  >> agricultural or industrial matters, but I don't think this situation
>  >> will arise on many _planets_.  
>
>
>cough cough
	How many dinky airless rockballs with large populations do the world 
generation rules permit? 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:36:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:36:20 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
In-Reply-To: <B9701696.6773B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B9701696.6773B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <02080313573002.00601@linux>

>
> Just to bring this back to Traveller,  how do the Imperium portray it's
> adversaries?  We can probably guess that the Solomani do a bit of
> dehumanizing propaganda against their Imperial foe.  How does the Imperium
> portray the Zhodani and Solomani to it's citizenry.  And is there an
> Imperial Ministry for Propaganda?

	I seem to recall an article in the old JTAS about racial epithets for the 
5th Frontier War. It was printed at about the time of FFW release. So, yes, 
racial slurs for the buzzheads and doggies and pinkies...etc. can be 
considered canon. 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:37:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:37:34 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CF7@USCHM203>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CF7@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <02080314013103.00601@linux>

On Friday 02 August 2002 01:43 pm, you wrote:
> >The Germans, and
> >
>  >particularly the Japanese were horribly dehumanized.  We made our enemies
>  >into monsters so then it was OK to exterminate them.
>
> If there was any dehumanizing of the Germans and Japanese, they did it
> themselves through their own brutality.
> _______________________________________________
>	Project 741 tested biological warfare on helpless POW's (Americans)
The US Government tested/tests biological agents on its own citizens.

	My point is that in war,...all sides are capable of being monstrous bastards.
Part of propaganda's job is to make the 'good guys' look good.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:38:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:38:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com>
References: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com>
Message-ID: <02080314301904.00601@linux>

> That's all local.  If a system is really strapped, I'd send some fleet
> escorts to help out.  War is not always imminent, after all.  Too, while
> the Imperium cares about some weapons, why should it care about the
> smuggling of anything else?  "Admiral!  Smugglers are transporting illegal
> cargos of cigarettes to Zivije!"  "Ensign, go there immediately.  Buy me a
> few packs."
>
 I would think the Imperium would frown on many black market activities.
It avoids tribute to Emperor.
It undermines legitimate corporate profits and business practices.	
	As the Emperor is an active share-holder in many corporations and 
subsidiaries, it bites into his take directly. Not to mention the large 
amount of influence that mega-corps hold at all politiccal levels, they would 
insist even at a local level that the government put a stop to smuggling.
	Governments exist to ensure stable trade.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <fc.1bc430d6.2a7d06b7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEKGEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
 >big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.

I think that we had a long thread on this subject last year. One of the
things suggested was the use of X-ray Laser det mines. I posted a design
which allow either a ship or remote sensor platform to detonate the mines
when a ship came within range. The mines consisted of a nuclear warhead that
created a single pulse Xaser. This gave them the necessary range, a single
10,000 mile GURPS Traveller hex, to be effective weapons. Some one else
posted a TNE design for the same thing.

As I recall they were not that easy to find but would have been a much
bigger challenge to merchant and patrol craft than to capital ships. As with
all such weapons their greatest effect was to require opposing ships to be
looking for them and perhaps avoid them.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <ca.f8487da.2a7e2802@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020804105439.349f0cc8@pop.mindspring.com>

At 02:47 AM 8/4/2002 EDT, you wrote:
> >Cool.  And in the same time, you have the Zhos coming from everywhere (the
> >Consulate is much smaller, y'know) and the Zho's destroying the ares you
> >were supposed to be defending!  If you are lucky, you'll be killed in
> >battle, and won't be hung for gross incompetence.
> >
> >Mission is everything.  If you have been attacked, your first duty as an
> >Imperial officer is to defend the state.  Taking the war to the enemy's
> >home is a political decision.
>
>It seems I am to be the passive blind recipient of whatever comes my way, 
>while my opponent is free to act with clear vision.  You're right.  I'd
>lose.

Not if you keep your mission in mind.  Defense of the Imperium.  Put battle
fleets around critical systems like Jewell and Regina.  Have cruiser
squadrons covering approaches like those I detailed in my "Jewell Cluster"
plan.  You can take the offensive, but only after you have secured you own
territory from attack.  Hell, send raiders into Zho forward bases like
Cipango and Farreach. They won't do much real damage, but it will tie down
some of his reinforcements to rear defense. A squadron of 3,000 dton
destroyers can raise merry havoc against an orbital port.

An important part of defense is divining enemy intentions.  Take my Jewell
gambit.  You will have scouts as well, and looking at my moves, it will
soon become obvious that my main goal is Jewell itself.  Patience is the
Admiral's friend.  Look for your chance to exploit the enemy strategy to
your own ends.  Hassle him.  Take out outposts like Farreach, which secures
Efate and the Regina frontier along with giving you another axis of attack.
 Jewell is a high-pop world, and can hold out *for a time.*  In this case,
you aren't sacrificing worlds in order to seek out a decisive fleet
engagement; you are making strategic decisions that save the majority of
the important worlds of the sector.

Gather your reinforcements, then strike.  When you do attack, it must be an
overwhelming blow to the enemy.  Additional reinforcements are too far away
to make a difference. Go in with at least a 3:1 advantage in both tonnage
and firepower.  Try to make the engagement come at Jewell.  This way, you
will be able to stir up the anger and resolve of your forces with images of
a billion people under the yoke of the mind-raping scum.  This will be a
factor.  

After Jewell, assuming you win, do you go further?  Not unless Duke Norris
tells you to do so.  You, Admiral, are an instrument of policy.  Policy is
made by the bosses.  Let's say that Norris ate his Wheaties this morning.
You now face the opposite problem, planning an invasion.  The first thing
you do is define the exact goals of the mission: what are the exact
objectives.

Let's define it this way: remove the Zhodani from the Spinward Marches.
Your objective is obviously going to be Chronor.  Plan from there.  Main
attack, supporting attack, screening elements, ground troops.  With Chronor
neutralized, the other worlds in Jewell and Querion are isolated and can be
picked off one by one at your leisure, either through military action or
diplomatic efforts.

The point I, and the others are trying to make is that sub-battleship ships
serve a purpose.  A fleet needs ships it can spare for escort duty,
garrisoning small systems, feints, minor attacks.. every battleship not
built pays for a handful of cruisers or dozens of frigate/destroyer sized
ships.  Think versatility.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Embrace Fascism.    The uniforms look cool


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:29:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:29:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Check Your Landgrabs!
In-Reply-To: <1ad.629357b.2a7e2295@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020804105844.353f9bfc@pop.mindspring.com>

At 02:24 AM 8/4/2002 EDT, you wrote:
>What is the landgrab?

Claim a world in one of the published settings.  Detail the hell out of it.
Use any system you like. Publish the results here for everyone to admire.
Or put it up on the web, and post the link here for everyone to click.

Started during a hideously off-topic period of the TML's history by some
weirdo with a thing for penguins.  We've had a pretty good time with it.
--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                   - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:30:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:30:12 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was  COTI website)
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPGEAHEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <20020804060231.5D9A02793A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020804110019.353f3a82@pop.mindspring.com>

At 04:21 PM 8/4/2002 +0800, you wrote:
>Was that spam and eggs
>or spam, spam egs and spam?

Spam spam spam spam spam spam spam lovely spam, wonderful spam...
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:31:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:31:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Paging Martin Dougherty
In-Reply-To: <008101c23b82$ff35d320$8a0fbd50@martinjd>
References: <20020804013343.15643.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020804110258.353f8dd6@pop.mindspring.com>

At 07:48 AM 8/4/2002 +0100, you wrote:

>Uhh? It Morning. Me Brain-Slow. Remind What Information?
>Me Find Breakfast Cereal Now. Kill And Eat Cereal. Cereal Good.

Eek! A cereal killer loose in the TML!
-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of
limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:32:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:32:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <10.22d0c4c9.2a7e1fae@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020804111013.353f8596@pop.mindspring.com>

At 02:11 AM 8/4/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>But I'd love to play it.  You're right, I think victories are achieved 
>militarily.

Some of the time.  But you think tactically, while we are think strategically.

"Amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics."
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Death is an experience best avoided, as it makes
reliable internet access difficult to obtain.
                       - Xaonon, in alt.atheism

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:33:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:33:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
In-Reply-To: <200208040317.MAB01365@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020804111806.2cb706d8@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:17 PM 8/3/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>(Doug says, 'Who is Richard Tucholka?' )

Doug has everything Tri-Tac every published, he thinks, and an autographed
copy of "Stalking the Night Fantastic", thank you very much  :)
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:34:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:34:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <003601c23bb9$68924480$0616bd50@martinjd>
References: <20020804113405.2614.19201.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <001001c23bb4$101d4160$92aa5940@dixienet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020804112446.2cb71a74@pop.mindspring.com>

At 02:17 PM 8/4/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>
> ONLY the Master sees BOTH fleet positions - EVER. Opponents find out by
> ships finding each other. Politial rules prevent FLEETS ( 5 ships per
> group ) from crossing borders with declarations of war made.

I played in a double-blind 5FW game as the Zhodani commander.  We had a
bunch of house rules, and each fleet had a serperate Admiral.  It took
months, but I followed the basic attack plan I outlined in my other post.

War in the Third Imperium is a game of hide & seek.  Intelligence is
everything.  Planning is everything else.  I had a good plan, and the
"staff understood their roles, and how much discretion they had inside
their missions.  Third Assault Fleet's commander was decorated for his
audacious feints that drew four Imperial fleets away from relieving Jewell
and chasing him all over Lunion and Glisten.

When it was over, the Jewell cluster had been brought into the fold of
civilization.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry      gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"Well, thanks to the Internet, I'm now bored
 with sex." - Fry, Futurama

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:36:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:36:34 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Baboon Class Missile Frigate CREWS
Message-ID: <200208041828.g74ISow12329@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Flykiller@aol.com
>Subject: [TML] RE: Baboon Class Missile Frigate CREWS
...
>I think the big problem with this kind of boat is not their inefficiency, but 
>their crews.  It would be hard enough to get competent and willing captains, 
>pilots, and engineers with the necessary decades of experience for a few 
>heavily armed and armored capital ships that have adequate living space and 
>support cargo.  Finding thousands of deployable captains, pilots, and 
>engineers who would be willing to live and fight in barely-adequate 
>Volkswagens (as it were) would be a major problem.  I think this difficulty 
>should be reflected in their skill levels.  I know TCS specifically and 
>categorically states otherwise, but I think this issue is just too big and 
>reasonable to so breezily ignore it.

  I agree that it's a major issue, although the demographics and
economy of the 3I/OTU make it not critical for warship fleets.
The fighter swarm forces will have problems - the question might
be how good the commanders for any light warships will be?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Movies
Message-ID: <1a2.65f889d.2a7ed1b3@aol.com>

>  I hang out with several military history types
>(professors and non-profs).  There's a few complaints
>with GETTYSBURG's (and others') historical accuracy or
>getting the wrong people in the wrong roles.  Some 
>can't stand Short's accent, Berringer's false beard,
>or this aspect or that.  I enjoyed the movie

>regardless. 

It is as close as Hollywood ever gets (and frankly, it is as close as we can 
ever hope to get). Movies ALWAYS compress events, eliminate characters, and 
re-arrange things in the name of drama. But then again, so did the novel (THE 
KILLER ANGELS) hat the movie was based on. 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
Message-ID: <3D4D776E.B78FF865@mail.cswnet.com>

>Depart now and you forever separate 
>yourselves from the vital gaming legacies of James Dunnigan, 
>Steve Jackson, Gary Gygax, Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank 
>Chadwick, Andrew Keith, William Keith, John Harshman, 
>Professor Barker, and Richard Tucholka.

Professor Barker {?} info please.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for the Atro-genius Types (was: System Gen     Help)
In-Reply-To: <p04330101b97312dbe956@[198.123.22.192]>
Message-ID: <20020804190454.32509.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

So the answer is that, while unlikely, it is possible.

Makes for an interesting detail, and I kinda like it.

Thanks for the help everyone.

Paul


--- "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> Note: you don't come in from out of the solar system
> and drop into an 
> orbit.  To capture _any_ body from outside the solar
> system requires 
> interactions with other bodies (otherwise the
> velocity you built up 
> comeing in just pushes you right back out again). 
> If you sling shot 
> around something and loose velocity, you will settle
> into some sort 
> of orbit (barring collisions).  However, this orbit
> will be perturbed 
> over time and generally settle into some smaller
> subset of stable 
> orbits.
> -- 
> ______________________________
> summers@alum.mit.edu
> (This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in
> Boston, but I'm in California.)
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:06:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:06:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
Message-ID: <181.c196c70.2a7ed4f5@aol.com>

MJ Dougherty writes:

>> > Why do you want fighters to be more effective?
>>
>> So that they can have an outside possibility of damaging Capital ships
>at
>> high TL
>
>And again, why do you want this? Barring me swallowing some and suffering
>some strange kind of poisoning, no amount of flies can beat me in a straight
>fight. My feeling is that fighters are good for screening and keeping
>merchies in line. Big ships are for killing big ships.

"Screening?"  If, by rule and design, fighters can't affect anything much 
more than 100 times their size, AND can't get sufficient squadron or fleet 
level coordination to act as a coherent battery, then they have no chance of 
acting in a screening role *either*, since they won't have sufficient rating 
to affect passing missile barrages and can't be effectively put in a place to 
intercept those missile even if they *could* stop any.

Allowing for whole squadrons to have that outside chance *at range* means the 
opponent has to respond to them with escorts or fighters of their own, which, 
of course, leads to mounting of direct-fire weapons on the fighters as well. 
If you are only using "fighters" as extensions of your sensor-space, the way 
they are used and fielded changes completely. The first change will be that 
no one carries squadrons into war, only raids. Capital ships will carry only 
enough to use as "sensor drones", and no ship will likely be designed with 
massive rapid-launch capabilities (ie. launch tubes).
It's simple, really. If fighters aren't a threat in a line battle, then your 
opponent will have never built his own after seeing yours.

As a TNE fan, Martin, you should be very familiar with this argument, because 
this is *exactly* the line of thought that lead to the big det-laser missiles 
of TNE, and a combat system that would make such torps useful.

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Movies
In-Reply-To: <1a2.65f889d.2a7ed1b3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B972CA46.67D2A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/4/02 11:51 AM, GDWGAMES@aol.com at GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

>> I hang out with several military history types
>> (professors and non-profs).  There's a few complaints
>> with GETTYSBURG's (and others') historical accuracy or
>> getting the wrong people in the wrong roles.  Some
>> can't stand Short's accent, Berringer's false beard,
>> or this aspect or that.  I enjoyed the movie
> 
>> regardless. 
> 
> It is as close as Hollywood ever gets (and frankly, it is as close as we can
> ever hope to get). Movies ALWAYS compress events, eliminate characters, and
> re-arrange things in the name of drama. But then again, so did the novel (THE
> KILLER ANGELS) hat the movie was based on.


More info on the next Ron Maxwell film "Gods and Generals" can be found at
the web site http://www.godsandgenerals.com/

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Check Your Landgrabs!
Message-ID: <3D4D7CCE.FE3EF458@mail.cswnet.com>

Flykiller asks;
>What is the landgrab?

Oh, my good man, a landgrab is one of the most beautiful things in all
the universe. I highly recomend building one for yourself today!
For more info, go to this sight:

http://www.downport.com/landgrab/

Now, if I can put my Arba Real Estate hat on...

There are some good open frontier systems just waiting to be snatched up
in the Lunion and Vilis subsectors; Adabicci [has a class A port],
Rabwhar [has a scout base and a megacorps lab]. Over in Vilis, Vilis
itself hasn't been grabbed, plus Choleosti and Margesi. 

Get'em while there hot!

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:19:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:19:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
In-Reply-To: <3D4D776E.B78FF865@mail.cswnet.com>
References: <3D4D776E.B78FF865@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <kbvqkus21i0n0h2fmi9s0sq6fh7j9jnuj8@4ax.com>

On Sun, 04 Aug 2002 13:50:22 -0500, Roseberry
<rosebee@mail.cswnet.com> wrote:

>>Depart now and you forever separate=20
>>yourselves from the vital gaming legacies of James Dunnigan,=20
>>Steve Jackson, Gary Gygax, Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank=20
>>Chadwick, Andrew Keith, William Keith, John Harshman,=20
>>Professor Barker, and Richard Tucholka.
>
>Professor Barker {?} info please.

Empire of the Petal Throne, IIRC.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was  COTI website)
Message-ID: <3D4D7DDB.3B73E32A@mail.cswnet.com>

<snippaged>
>>Was that spam and eggs
>>or spam, spam egs and spam?

>Spam spam spam spam spam spam spam lovely spam, wonderful spam...

"Bloody Vikings!"

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Paging Martin Dougherty
Message-ID: <3D4D7EA9.6E1529D3@mail.cswnet.com>

>snippaged<
>>Uhh? It Morning. Me Brain-Slow. Remind What Information?
>>Me Find Breakfast Cereal Now. Kill And Eat Cereal. Cereal Good.

>Eek! A cereal killer loose in the TML!

Obviously an eater of NIETZCHE POPS, The Uber Breakfast!
I prefer Space Flakes (tm) myself.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
In-Reply-To: <3D4D776E.B78FF865@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEKJEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>Depart now and you forever separate
>>yourselves from the vital gaming legacies of James Dunnigan,
>>Steve Jackson, Gary Gygax, Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank
>>Chadwick, Andrew Keith, William Keith, John Harshman,
>>Professor Barker, and Richard Tucholka.
>
>Professor Barker {?} info please.
>
>Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>
Why the creator of "Empire of the Petal Throne" possibly the most complex
game world ever created, certainly one of the most complex not based on
Western mythology/ideology. (In this case I would count Traveller as based
on Western mythology since it is based on the classic science fiction of the
golden era, which is certainly a western literary mythology.)


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:30:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:30:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Paging Martin Dougherty
Message-ID: <memo.598862@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <3D4D7EA9.6E1529D3@mail.cswnet.com>
> Obviously an eater of NIETZCHE POPS, The Uber Breakfast!
> I prefer Space Flakes (tm) myself.

I go for Cthulhu-hoops every time :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:36:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:36:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Paging Martin Dougherty
In-Reply-To: <memo.598862@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020804193546.5A5D02793A@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/04/02 at 08:28 PM,  mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan
Robertson) said:

>In-Reply-To: <3D4D7EA9.6E1529D3@mail.cswnet.com>
>> Obviously an eater of NIETZCHE POPS, The Uber Breakfast!
>> I prefer Space Flakes (tm) myself.

>I go for Cthulhu-hoops every time :-)

I think that's marketed as Captain Cthulhu on this side of the pond.
;->

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:40:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:40:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
In-Reply-To: <3D4D776E.B78FF865@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <20020804193937.669AD2793A@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/04/02 at 01:50 PM,  Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com> said:

>>Depart now and you forever separate 
>>yourselves from the vital gaming legacies of James Dunnigan, 
>>Steve Jackson, Gary Gygax, Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank 
>>Chadwick, Andrew Keith, William Keith, John Harshman, 
>>Professor Barker, and Richard Tucholka.

>Professor Barker {?} info please.

Professor Barker created the "Empire of the Petal Throne" setting as a
youth, and has been adding to it for low these many years. The only
fantasy I ever played (as opposed to GMing) in, until recently, was an
EotPT game.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: meduim navies
Message-ID: <3D4D82E0.C26DA8F1@mail.cswnet.com>

Well, I just got done last night with Regina subsector, and came up with
a problem with the TL6- worlds. Basically, using the mercenary rule from
small navies just makes these worlds have massive merc navies [in Enopes
case, almost a Merc TCS]. So, until I can think up
a better way to tweak TL6- worlds, I'm just going to remove them
entirely. They'll still be counted for the 30% Imperial Navy tax, but
the rest of their budget won't be used. This I think gets it close to
the way it is in the FFW game. 

As for tweaking TL6- worlds, when I get done posting this I'm going to
go dig out the TNE Path of Tears supplement and see if that might be
usefull. I dunno.

I'll post up tax returns for Regina and Lanth, plus repost Lunion with
the removed TL6- worlds, latter tonight probably.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
Message-ID: <197.adccb8b.2a7edf13@aol.com>

Flykiller writes:

> >All I am doing is letting Fighters act like Turrets. If several turrets
>can
> >concentrate their fire to increase their effectiveness, why can't several
> >fighters?
>
>You could extend this same concept to spinal mount vessels.
>

You could, but you'd be inventing extensions to the charts to do so (as in, 
what is the rating of a pair of Meson-T's?), while the concept of grouping 
turrets is already part of the game and is incorporated into the charts.  
>From a RL standpoint, grouping spinal fire also requires that you get several 
*large* ships to all point at one target long enough to acquire, aim, and 
fire.  Missiles aim themselves, and laser turrets (to carry the fighters as 
battery concept to defense) are articulated and thus also aimable without 
involving the engines.

In case you are wondering, this is my long way of saying "no, you can't".

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 14:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 13:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Failing planets
Message-ID: <98.29e35cc8.2a7ee374@aol.com>

Flykiller writes:

> >If planets are so self sufficient, then why does TNE describe planets
> >failing because they were cut off from interstellar trade?
>
>Don't know.  Doesn't make much sense to me.  I can see it happening here
>and there of course, but not en masse.  TNE may state it, but that's not 
>necessarily a reason to just swallow it.

Which just tells me you haven't read TNE. Not to worry, it's a common sin on 
this list.

It is based on the supposition that listed TL is "locally producable and 
maintainable" and the observation (made here many times) that many worlds 
don't seem to make sense in terms of environment and TL match (type B 
atmosphere and TL2, for example). TNE explained these cases as being 
supported by trade. If the trade dries up, and the world can't maintain the 
equipment that keeps it alive, eventually the world dies.  Add Virus and the 
after-effects of a 24-year long war that went into scorched earth tactics for 
the last five, and planets that *had* sufficient TL before may no longer. All 
it takes is that Virus-infected system to kill all the on-hand spares and 
blow up the factory, starport, and internal delivery systems (not uncommon 
for a Virus strike), and your life-support systems are dead in a few days. If 
Mr. Virus also sealed all the doors out of your arcology and turns the 
security systems on anyone who looks organized, then even a green and 
pleasant world can turn into a tomb.

Note that, for all the Virus-haters out there, the Black War and plain old 
human panic/stupidity can accomplish much the same results, often just as 
quickly.

I'm not going to take this further right now, as it drags in many of the TMLs 
classic battles, including the nature of Tech Level, commerce models, Virus, 
and the randomness of UWPs.

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 14:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 13:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
Message-ID: <137.122edd2d.2a7ee774@aol.com>

Flykiller writes:

> >Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
> >big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.
>
>What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other sensor systems
>you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?
>

Not the point. In space, mines are *terrain*, not ambushers.  Got an enemy 
force vectoring your way? Drop mines behind you in an area you think it 
likely he *has* to fly through. If he sees the mines, he may break off early 
enough to miss them, giving you either an escape option or (if properly 
deployed) a positional advantage for returning the attack.

What really affects mines is the same factor that affects fighters: will they 
be big enough to have *any* effect, even if they score a hit?

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 14:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug  4 13:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
Message-ID: <200208042039.MBL00293@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Roseberry asks
>Professor Barker {?} info please.

Empire of the Petal Throne...
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 15:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Aug  4 14:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
In-Reply-To: <137.122edd2d.2a7ee774@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B972E6BF.67D85%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/4/02 1:24 PM, GypsyComet@aol.com at GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:

> Not the point. In space, mines are *terrain*, not ambushers.  Got an enemy
> force vectoring your way? Drop mines behind you in an area you think it
> likely he *has* to fly through. If he sees the mines, he may break off early
> enough to miss them, giving you either an escape option or (if properly
> deployed) a positional advantage for returning the attack.

And also possibly making his sensors go active.  If the mines are stealthy
enough, he won't be able to detect them with passive sensors.
> 
> What really affects mines is the same factor that affects fighters: will they
> be big enough to have *any* effect, even if they score a hit?

That is the question.  But mines will be far cheaper than fighters.  No life
support, rudimentary controls, simple drive systems.  Probably fear cheaper.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 15:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Asbury)
Date: Sun Aug  4 14:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Professor Barker??
References: <20020804190005.1656.32029.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000601c23c02$0d81b280$08984c51@oemcomputer>

>>Depart now and you forever separate
>>yourselves from the vital gaming legacies of James Dunnigan,
>>Steve Jackson, Gary Gygax, Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank
>>Chadwick, Andrew Keith, William Keith, John Harshman,
>>Professor Barker, and Richard Tucholka.
>
>Professor Barker {?} info please.
>
>Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

Empire of the Petal Throne!

It was a early D&D derivative by the above mentioned prof.

It had a very oriental feel with him having a background in linguistics (and
it counted as sci-fi due to the strange background history... Humans and
other aliens try to terraform a planet, much to the anoyance of it
inhabitants, entire solar system disappears into a void, leaving everybody
up the creak, a few thousand years regression (theres no iron on planet!)
and alternate cultural development  later and enter the PCs.

It spawn numerous expansions, and two  novels bu M.A.R. Barker himself.

Major prob with this world? pronouncing the words! He did a Tolkien and
created his own languages and scripts.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 16:00:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug  4 15:00:34 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com> <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net> <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020805075953.A24737@freeman.little-possums.net>

hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> Hello Tim,
>   The missile damage rules in GURPS TRAVELLER make missile craft that much
>   more deadly than they were in any other TRAVELLER incarnation.

Oh.  Here was I thinking that the missiles were suboptimal and could
have been designed better and cheaper.  For example, it is trivial to
design a missile turret that can launch and control 20 missiles per
combat turn, each costing less than half as much with better
acceleration and damage.

If they are already vastly better than in previous Travelelr versions,
there's not really much point I guess. :-/



>  I personally do not use the GURPS STARSHIP combat rules as
>  presented,

Do you use something close, or a drastic re-write?  (Or not at all?)


> nor am I pleased with rendition of the Meson weapons in the GURPS
> TRAVELLER rule set.

They do look a little icky to me too.  What bothers you most?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 16:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug  4 15:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com> <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net> <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]>
Message-ID: <20020805081803.B24737@freeman.little-possums.net>

David P. Summers wrote:
> Missiles are very damaging.  However, they also can be intercepted.
> The utility of missiles depends on how many missiles you have vs how
> much point defense you foe has.

Yes, I'd noticed that too.  In particular, the existing missiles and
launchers can be greatly upgraded to achieve much better results
against point defense for rather little cost.  However, given other
comments it looks like doing so would take it even further away from
previous versions of Traveller. :-/


> However, dropping missiles entirely, going heaving into point
> defense, and using other weapons for a kill can be a viable route.

It seems that would be a good idea if your ship needs to spend a long
time away from resupply, but not good for actual battle capability.
Using the full Vehicles rules, I was unable to design a craft that
could mount enough point defense weapons to last more than a round or
two.

The other problem I noted is the short range of direct-fire weapons.
None of the presented beams could touch anything beyond 30 hexes.
Missiles (even the wimpy predesigned ones) can hit from 50 or so
hexes.

Of course, missiles have to be replaced -- beam weapons fire forever.
Were these factors not present in previous Traveller incarnations?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 16:20:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ludwig)
Date: Sun Aug  4 15:20:04 2002
Subject: [TML] prejudice (OT)
In-Reply-To: <55.2b3ad1ac.2a7dc32f@aol.com>
References: <55.2b3ad1ac.2a7dc32f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020804181934.4890b45c.mariachi@mac.com>

On Sat, 3 Aug 2002 19:37:19 EDT
Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

[...]
> The military rejects enlistment of those 32 and older (if I recall 
> correctly)
[...]

35 and older in the Navy.  IRL, that is.  Dunno about Traveller.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 16:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug  4 15:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <02080313391901.00601@linux>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux>
Message-ID: <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net>

richard honeycutt wrote:
> 	How many dinky airless rockballs with large populations do the
> world generation rules permit?

What does that matter?  They obviously don't need trade for survival.
It's not like they'll starve if you isolate them.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 16:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug  4 15:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEKGEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <fc.1bc430d6.2a7d06b7@aol.com> <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEKGEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20020805082530.D24737@freeman.little-possums.net>

Terry Carlino wrote:
> This gave them the necessary range, a single 10,000 mile GURPS
> Traveller hex, to be effective weapons.

Ah, that explains it.  You're using a two-dimensional map.  Yes, if
you can restrict spacecraft to move in a plane, then I agree that
space mines can be effective.  (But even then, only if you don't use
the GURPS Traveller space combat system)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 16:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Sun Aug  4 15:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Professor Barker??
In-Reply-To: <000601c23c02$0d81b280$08984c51@oemcomputer>
References: <20020804190005.1656.32029.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020804172747.0469acb0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

For more detail, check out:

www.tekumel.com

Cheers!  (or Ngangmuru! if you wish)

At 10:58 PM 8/4/02 +0100, you wrote:

> >>Depart now and you forever separate
> >>yourselves from the vital gaming legacies of James Dunnigan,
> >>Steve Jackson, Gary Gygax, Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank
> >>Chadwick, Andrew Keith, William Keith, John Harshman,
> >>Professor Barker, and Richard Tucholka.
> >
> >Professor Barker {?} info please.
> >
> >Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
>
>Empire of the Petal Throne!
>
>It was a early D&D derivative by the above mentioned prof.
>
>It had a very oriental feel with him having a background in linguistics (and
>it counted as sci-fi due to the strange background history... Humans and
>other aliens try to terraform a planet, much to the anoyance of it
>inhabitants, entire solar system disappears into a void, leaving everybody
>up the creak, a few thousand years regression (theres no iron on planet!)
>and alternate cultural development  later and enter the PCs.
>
>It spawn numerous expansions, and two  novels bu M.A.R. Barker himself.
>
>Major prob with this world? pronouncing the words! He did a Tolkien and
>created his own languages and scripts.
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 17:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Aug  4 16:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
In-Reply-To: <B972E6BF.67D85%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <137.122edd2d.2a7ee774@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4E5E7E.26225.7DEF71@localhost>

On 4 Aug 2002 at 14:12, Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 8/4/02 1:24 PM, GypsyComet@aol.com at GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:
> 
> > Not the point. In space, mines are *terrain*, not ambushers.  Got an enemy
> > force vectoring your way? Drop mines behind you in an area you think it
> > likely he *has* to fly through. If he sees the mines, he may break off early
> > enough to miss them, giving you either an escape option or (if properly
> > deployed) a positional advantage for returning the attack.
> 
> And also possibly making his sensors go active.  If the mines are stealthy
> enough, he won't be able to detect them with passive sensors.
> > 
> > What really affects mines is the same factor that affects fighters: will they
> > be big enough to have *any* effect, even if they score a hit?
> 
> That is the question.  But mines will be far cheaper than fighters.  No life
> support, rudimentary controls, simple drive systems.  Probably fear cheaper.

Here's a cheap TL15 mine, made using FF&S1 + Vampire Fleets (for the 
robot brain). I assume that for a weapon to be fully independent it 
must have a robot brain with the requisite skills (in this case Sensers 
and Gunnery).

TL Guidance Vol Mass AV MCr   G-Turns Warhead Hits Damage  Range Comm 
15 Full-Ind 1   1.18 3  1.527 3/3     50kt    1D6  1/14-43 0     10L

Sensor Signatures     Asset
1P     	+4/+3/+4/+3/+1 4/8

Because it has the warhead's built-in laser receiver it can also be 
used as a low-acceleration controlled missile. It has 3 G-turns of 
acceleration because that was the smallest practical rocket available 
and it has to have some manoeuvrability to be able to get into 
detonation range of a target. It would probably be programmed to attack 
any enemy vessel that came within 3 hexes (90,000km) of it and that it 
could get a lock on.

The biggest weakness is that power for the passive sensor, EMM system 
and brain is only good for 12 hours. Also it's surprsingly expensive 
(it costs more than a standard TL15 space combat missile), with most of 
the extra cost coming from the sensor.

Because it is only 1 m^3 in volume it can be carried in very large 
amounts (this is 1/7th the volume of a standard TNE space combat 
missile), and deployed in large numbers.

And for those who have money to burn:

TL Guidance Vol Mass AV MCr   G-Turns Warhead Hits Damage  Range Comm
15 Full-Ind 7   7.32 3  5.232 4/4     500ktx2 2D6  1/25-79 0     10L

Sensor Signatures     Asset
2P     	+4/+3/+4/+3/+1 6/16

Probably way too expensive for most people, but it should ruin the day 
of any smaller vessel that runs into a field of them.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 17:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 16:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <02080313391901.00601@linux>
 <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
 <02080313391901.00601@linux>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804192145.024cac00@192.168.0.1>

At 08:19 AM 8/5/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>richard honeycutt wrote:
> >       How many dinky airless rockballs with large populations do the
> > world generation rules permit?
>What does that matter?  They obviously don't need trade for survival.
>It's not like they'll starve if you isolate them.

On what do you base that on?


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 17:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sun Aug  4 16:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
References: <181.c196c70.2a7ed4f5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <006001c23c11$6fd780e0$c20fbd50@martinjd>

>
> "Screening?"  If, by rule and design, fighters can't affect anything much
> more than 100 times their size, AND can't get sufficient squadron or fleet
> level coordination to act as a coherent battery, then they have no chance
of
> acting in a screening role *either*, since they won't have sufficient
rating
> to affect passing missile barrages and can't be effectively put in a place
to
> intercept those missile even if they *could* stop any.

Well, it's possible to build an over-weaponed "strike boat" around a
powerful weapon such as a plasma gun. Lots of hurting power for its size and
cost. Fighters can screen vs such attacks. They can act as standoff sensor
and patrol platforms. And they SHOULD be able to kill incoming missiles as
area defense weapons. If they can't then THAT is a rule change that i agree
should be made.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 17:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sun Aug  4 16:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Pilots of the Future (was: warship optimization)
References: <000601c23bd4$abfd1270$6501a8c0@Darla>
Message-ID: <00a201c23c12$53cb3760$c20fbd50@martinjd>

>
> >
> > Main problem with drones is the ECM/ECCM/Jamming seesaw.
> >
> > And control lags over combat distances in space, OC.
> >
>
> That may be true of drones, but unmanned combat aircraft will be
> autonomous to a large degree.  I suspect that "video game reflexes" will
> not be useful skills in operating them - mission planning will be more
> important.

That makes sense. In fact, I wrote something to that effect in my PGW
report.
And then forgot about it. Pure genius.

Me go throw spears at bison now...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 17:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 16:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
Message-ID: <OF622B6C9A.381C2DCD-ONCA256C0B.008138BC@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Martin (I think) wrote:
>>And again, why do you want this? Barring me swallowing some and 
suffering
>>some strange kind of poisoning, no amount of flies can beat me in a 
straight
>>fight.

But a swarm of those killer Mexican bees should have you worried. They can 
kill you.

>>My feeling is that fighters are good for screening and keeping
>>merchies in line. Big ships are for killing big ships.
>
>"Screening?"  If, by rule and design, fighters can't affect anything much 

>more than 100 times their size, AND can't get sufficient squadron or 
fleet 
>level coordination to act as a coherent battery, then they have no chance 
of 
>acting in a screening role *either*,

Huh? There _are_ examples of effective fighter batteries. Now let's see, 
where did I put that reference... <dig, dig> ah yes, the excellent 
Illustrated Traveller Bibliography at:
        http://www.pemaquidsolutions.com/bibliography/

...has a CT section. Fighter batteries are somewhere in one or more of 
these:
        JTAS #14 High Guard: Optional Rules, by Stefan Jones
        JTAS #14 TCS Squadron Design, by Kevin Connolly
        JTAS #15 TCS Squadron Design II, by Kevin Connolly
        JTAS #23 Naval Command, by Jeff Groteboer
        JTAS #24 Ref Notes: High Guard and TCS Campaigns, Leroy W.Guatney **
        (** It's by Leroy, but please don't let that put you off! ;-)

...and are definitely in:
        JTAS #27 Fighter Profile: The Rampart IV and V

They are treated just like an extra battery. The only time they could 
affect BIG ships is if they fired nukes, I guess. But they certainly act 
as an effective anti-missile screen.

Ah, look, I'm coming in 1/2-way thru this discussion. Feel free to ignore 
me.  ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 17:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Sun Aug  4 16:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020805081803.B24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <000b01c23c12$0a9e0040$0b01a8c0@duck>

> Of course, missiles have to be replaced -- beam weapons fire forever.
> Were these factors not present in previous Traveller incarnations?

They were in Book 2, but those factors were completely dropped in
High Guard.  Missles were free with an infinite supply.  HG just 
gave cost for the turret or bay weapons.  The ammo was assumed.

For small ships, missles were the only way to go.  You would mount
other stuff to fill out the USP, but missles were how you survived
because a nuclear missle could do near spinal damage without the 
spinal mount.

The other huge plus for HG missles is that they effectively increase
agility.  Since they take no power, they allow smaller power plants
to be used, or allow higher agility for the same sized power plant.

And there is an infinite supply of zero-mass, zero-volume free missles.

What a deal!

Honestly, except for some very specific cases, I have no idea why
anyone would use anything but spinal mesons and gobs and gobs of
missle bays.  The other weapons are just there to pad out the USP.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 17:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 16:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Paging Martin Dougherty
Message-ID: <OF6044E6DB.0B13FF37-ONCA256C0B.008342A9@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

>>> Obviously an eater of NIETZCHE POPS, The Uber Breakfast!
>>> I prefer Space Flakes (tm) myself.
>
>>I go for Cthulhu-hoops every time :-)
>
>I think that's marketed as Captain Cthulhu on this side of the pond.

Conme on! Any self-respecting Traveller should be eating that old 
"Goodies" breakfast staple, "Plastic Spacemen"!!

"Look mum, I found a corn flake!"

;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 17:57:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 16:57:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <c8.2ae3e017.2a7f1945@aol.com>

 >[snip good stuff]
 >ONLY the Master sees BOTH fleet positions - EVER. Opponents find out by
 >ships finding each other. Politial rules prevent FLEETS ( 5 ships per
 >group ) from crossing borders with declarations of war made.
 >
 >Think you can handle that?

Yes, I'd love to.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 18:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 17:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
Message-ID: <OF4B1DD5B4.382CD3B0-ONCA256C0C.000000B8@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

>But mines will be far cheaper than fighters.
>Probably fear cheaper.
          ^^^^
Ah yes, the old "your mine was made by the lowest bidder" concept. ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 18:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 17:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <9a.298a34a5.2a7f1cbe@aol.com>

 >But seriously, the comm delay and limited intelligence turned a wargame into
 >a nightmare.

Explains a lot about why the real military is the way it is.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 18:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 17:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Check Your Landgrabs!
Message-ID: <9b.2b7bf726.2a7f2041@aol.com>

 >>What is the landgrab?
 >
 >Claim a world in one of the published settings.  Detail the hell out of it.
 >Use any system you like. Publish the results here for everyone to admire.
 >Or put it up on the web, and post the link here for everyone to click.

I've done some work on Pagaton.  Is there an official listing of who has 
what, or it is a free-for-all?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 18:33:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 17:33:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: meduim navies
Message-ID: <3D4DC693.966243AF@mail.cswnet.com>

Initial Fleets for Lunion, Lanth, and Regina subsectors using
"meduim navies".

Initial Fleets, Lunion subsector

Imperial Navy MCr 2,835,544.748

Wardn. MCr 55
Smoug MCr 14700
Adabicci MCr 322,000
Zaibon MCr 148.75
Spirelle MCr 312,375
Derchon MCr 36,225
Lunion MCr 3,080,000
Shirine MCr 252
Harvoset MCr 14175
Perisephone MCr 28350
Capon MCr 17,850
Strouden MCr 3,465,000

This is peace time budget x10, using "meduim navies".
Note: I'm using supp3 to start, so Wardn is independent.

Initial Fleets, Lanth subsector

Imperial Navy MCr 68668.554

Extolay MCr 40250
Lanth MCr 220.5
Dinom MCr 63
Ghandi MCr 9.98
Wypoc MCr 267.75
Quopist MCr 1592.5
Treece MCr 105,000
Ivendo MCr 332.5
Tureded MCr 178.5
Equus MCr 66500
Rhise MCr 31.85
Icetina MCr 126
Cogri MCr 1785
Skull MCr 12600

This is peace time budget x10, using "meduim navies".

Initial Fleets, Regina subsector

Imperial Navy MCr 3,957,399.439

Efate MCr 3,220,000
Alell MCr 241,500
Yres MCr 13650
Menorb MCr 603,750
Uakye MCr 120.75
Boughne MCr 189
Hefry MCr 10.5
Ruie. MCr 9,100,000
Jenghe MCr 1365
Regina MCr 422,625
Feri MCr 409,500
Roup MCr 1,260,000
Yori MCr 23275
Dentus MCr 157.5
Wochiers MCr 294,000
Yorbund MCr 35
Moughas MCr 308
Rethe MCr 6,300,000
Inthe MCr 18200
Shionthy MCr 20825

This is peace time budget x10, using "meduim navies".

Notes: I'm using old supp3 for world tech levels, so Kinorb does'nt make
it [TL5]. Also, Yori is figured at TL13. Finally, Shionthys Imperial
Income is not included in the Imperial Fleet listing. I seperated it
because I deemed that income coming from Shionthy would be in the form
of collected CT-Shards, which would not go to local Imperial forces but
rather get sent off to an appropriate depot and/or research station.
This 'income' amounts to MCr892.5 annually. Also,
Shionthy is one of a very few in the Marches that would produce naval
income. The other 3 would be the two Droyne worlds in the Five Sisters
and Lewis in the Aramis subsector. I'm sure none of the three would be
contributing anything to the Imperial Treasury.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 18:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Aug  4 17:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
In-Reply-To: <200208040445160020.54D0CCA6@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
References: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPGEAHEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
 <200208040445160020.54D0CCA6@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <m37kj6jfye.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com> writes:
> 
> So does SPAM survive the Rule of Man, the Long Night and into the
> Third Imperium?

It no longer is manufactures, but reserves of SPAM still exist.  The
stuff lasts forever, you know...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
To murder a man is much odious, to kill a woman is in manner unnatural,
but to slay and destroy innocent babes and young infants, the whole
world abhorreth, and their blood from the earth crieth for vengeance to
almighty God.                                    --Edward Hall, c. 1480

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 18:42:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Aug  4 17:42:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Taxes
In-Reply-To: <000501c23bd4$ab74f6b0$6501a8c0@Darla>
References: <000501c23bd4$ab74f6b0$6501a8c0@Darla>
Message-ID: <m33ctujfxj.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Thomas Barnes" <twb3@charter.net> writes:
>
> IMTU the Imperium gets at 10% tariff on the value of all goods
> shipped interstellar, plus 10% of the fares charged for interstellar
> passage.  The Imperium does not levy any direct taxes on
> individuals.

Those rates would make it _very_ difficult to make a profit as a free
trader...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
If you're a politician, bureaucrat, or cop whose livelihood depends on
the drug war, you're fully as contemptible as any pusher, smuggler, or
cocaine baron--more so, because, unlike them, you profit directly by
destroying what was once the greatest freedom ever known to mankind.
                              --Mirelle Stein, The Productive Class

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 18:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 17:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Imperial Taxes
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGELECEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: hal@buffnet.net
>
>In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head tax" or does it charge
>an income tax on its citizens for its Imperial Budget requirements?  In

In my Traveller universe, the Imperium does not tax individuals directly.
It taxes its member states, and the tax is part of the membership treaty
that the world and the Imperium make when the star system joins the
Imperium.  The treaties vary substantially in defining the tax, but it is
usually based on the gross product of the member.  How the member raises
that tax is the member's business, but it is normally added to the members'
own internal taxation schemes.

The Imperium taxes corporations and other businesses involved in
interstellar trade directly.  For game purposes, I assume that all of the
prices provided by the books that relate to commercial starship operations
are just net of taxes.  Businesses doing only a small amount of interstellar
trade are exempt from direct Imperial taxation.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 18:52:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 17:52:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Check Your Landgrabs!
Message-ID: <3D4DCB21.7989C728@mail.cswnet.com>

>I've done some work on Pagaton.  Is there an official listing of who >has what, or it is a free-for-all?

For more info, go to this sight:

http://www.downport.com/landgrab/

Don't forget these worlds; they haven't been grabbed yet.
Adabicci, Rabwhar, Vilis, Choleosti and Margesi. 

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:02:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:02:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <25.2b8bf94f.2a7e4e43@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000301c23cba$1984c370$1001a8c0@sauron>

CHam628781@aol.com wrote :
> One option is visible fertility - humans are unusual in that
> we don't know when women are in oestrus. In a society where
> that didn't exist there is likely to be tight social control
> over gender interaction.
>
> You might see harem based families (K'Kree) or you might see
> a society where males and females have parrallel societies
> with extremely ritualised methods of interaction, particularly
> if women tend to become fertile at around the same time.
>
> One interesting possibilty is Vagr society where it would be
> obvious to every male within quite a distance that the high
> ranking, young female en route to take part in a political
> wedding and placed in the care of  the PCs by her
> doting (if somewhat inflexible, powerful and violent father)
> has just come "on heat" for the first time...

I have to bring up the Harry Turtledove World War series again here.

The use of ginger as a weapon against the invading "lizards" is just
priceless.

For those that aren't familiar, in the books ginger acts as an intoxicant on
lizard males, and does the same on females, except that it also induces all
the outward signs of oestrus including the release of the associated
pheremones, which in turn generates a matching reation in the male,
resulting in mating being the only thing that any male lizard with in scent
of the ginger-using female can think about.

The effect of sex happening "at any time" on what had been until then a
rigidly controlled society is, um, interesting.

It is really tempting to use this is as a plot on a B'wapp controlled world,
seeing as B'waap are pretty close to Turtledove's lizards otherise.

> Do male Aslan mark their territory?

I don't see why not. Human males do. <grin>

> "Elmer that danged tomcat's peeing on the airlock again! Go
> own scat, shoo - you pee on it you pay for it!"

Do we extend this to Aslan too then?

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:03:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:03:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller webring
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804205811.021c4950@mail.charter.net>

All the current (that I know of) Traveller webrings can be found at
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/RPG/SV/TRAV/TravRings.html

These include the gearhead ring, the deckplans ring, and the Reavers' Deep 
webring.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
A well-educated electorate being necessary to the
prosperity of a free state, the right of the people to
keep and read books, shall not be infringed.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:05:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:05:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Note on the rockhead ring
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804210228.01931b98@mail.charter.net>

The page listed as the ring homepage isn't there.

Try here <http://prattfall.tripod.com/gurps/traveller.html> for more 
information.

----------------------------------------------
"Function in disaster. Finish in style."
-- Lucy Madeira http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
----------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Junk in space
In-Reply-To: <20020730104900.B2820@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20804.181110.0M6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> On the other hand, a 2 cm chunk of something is going to do more
>> than leave a dent.
>
> Such a chunk probably has a kinetic energy of about 1 MJ at best, and
> very likely is travelling at substantially less than the speed of
> sound in starship hull material.

Okay, call it 5 grams. E=.5*m*v^2

1000000 = .5 *.005 * v^2

1e6 = 2.5e-3 * v^2
400e6 = v^2
20e3 = v

Somehow, I doubt that the speed of sound in starship hull material is
20 km/sec!

> I think "make a dent" would be about right.  If one ever hit, which it
> wouldn't unless the sensors were crippled.

Are you going to dodge? Or try to blow it up?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Check Your Landgrabs!
Message-ID: <200208050120.MBT01955@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Roseberry says
>Don't forget these worlds; they haven't been grabbed yet.
>Adabicci, Rabwhar, Vilis, Choleosti and Margesi. 

You're kidding, right?  If so, then I'll grab Vilis.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:25:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:25:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020804232303.7408.33320.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <006701c23c1f$2baff600$195d8690@computer>

> From: Mark Urbin
> At 08:19 AM 8/5/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
> >richard honeycutt wrote:
> > >       How many dinky airless rockballs with large populations do the
> > > world generation rules permit?
> >What does that matter?  They obviously don't need trade for survival.
> >It's not like they'll starve if you isolate them.
>
> On what do you base that on?

I believe he was being sarcastic.

Mind you, I suspect many rockballs would have extensive greenhouses. They
wouldn't necessarily live on imports and Soylent Green.

At least, if _I_ was planning a rockball colony, they would have extensive
greenhouses.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology
Message-ID: <006801c23c1f$2c8101a0$195d8690@computer>

>No, 'cause they'd still not get the full rest needed.  My
>greatgrandfather and grandfather took well over a month to return to
>the US after WWI & WWII; my father was back in college in 48 or so
>hours after his time in Vietnam.  Granted, that's _some_ rest time,
>but it's not nearly enough.  You don't find as much PTSD in fellows
>who got to slowly make their way back home, adjust to the new reality
>&c.; you find quite a lot in guys who are plucked up from one
>situation and dropped in another.

I wouldn't underestimate the frequency of PTSD among WWI and WWII vets. I've
spent quite a bit of time talking to widows of WWII vets, and quite a lot of
them have horror stories of how their husbands would sometimes lose the
plot.

The POWs seem to have had the most problems, of course. This seems to be
true even when they were held by the Germans and Italians, rather than by
the Japanese.

As for WWI, well, let's just say that Australia started having a bit of a
drug problem after 1918.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:28:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:28:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020804173620.8351.57196.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <006901c23c1f$2dd85440$195d8690@computer>

> From: "MJ Dougherty"
> The confirmation came back "Cannot attack. My cuirassiers are in front of
> my lancers. Must redeploy for maximum effectivenesss." (He'd been fiddling
> with his deployments for 3 hours game-time and was now under artillery
fire)

: )

Once in a multi-player Seven Year's War game I moved my general figure over
to where one of my team-mates' general was, and then shouted at the fool.
He'd been moving his artillery backwards and forwards for the whole game,
while my force was fighting superior numbers of Prussians. If his guns had
been firing, we might have won.

I think at some point we probably should get some multi-player strategic
PBEMs going. Something along the lines of FFW, although I don't own a copy
of it.

Hmm. I've always wanted to run an Arbellatra vs Gustus game. Maybe I should
actually do it.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:33:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:33:05 2002
Subject: [TML] prejudice (OT)
In-Reply-To: <20020804181934.4890b45c.mariachi@mac.com>
Message-ID: <000401c23cbe$835713d0$1001a8c0@sauron>

Ludwig wrote :
> Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> [...]
> > The military rejects enlistment of those 32 and older (if I recall
> > correctly)
> [...]
>
> 35 and older in the Navy.  IRL, that is.  Dunno about Traveller.

That's actually a very good point.

In Traveller, with good meditech and anagathics, there's no reason a
forty-year-old couldn't still have a good twenty years of service left in
her.

If you want to extrapolate on current medical capabilities and imagine
several thousand years of good diet and breeding, one could expect it be
common that hard-bitten sixty-year-old warriors would wipe the floor with
mere brats of 35, who have not had enough years of training to even begin to
approach them.

Another point about "combat effectiveness", having just recently watched the
film "Snatch" again. Fitness and training are not neccessarily any match for
brutality and nastiness.
Age, of course, has nothing to do with this.

Many people (especially ex-military types) seem to assume that the measure
of "combat effectivenes" is how fit you are, how well you can stand up on
the battlefield or in a pre-announced fight.

But if you're the sort of nasty little f*ck that stabs people in the balls
when they are not expecting it, just because they made the mistake of
talking to you when you're annoyed , then you can probably kill a lot of
your opponents before they even realize they are in a fight.

IIRC, the infamous "Carlos" otherwise known as "The Jackal" was, during his
most famous escapades, a balding, overweight, middle-aged man who was
completely out of breath after running up a couple of flights of stairs.

I have, on occassion, become involved in violence. In almost all cases,
intimidation was my most effective weapon, and that was all
verbal/psychological intimidation as I am not a large person. In the case's
where intimidation failed, being able to cause extreme pain, and take a few
blows while doing so, was far more important than fitness or fancy
technique.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Landgrab of Vilis
Message-ID: <200208050146.MBV00737@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

If I'm doing Vilis, I think I had better do Garda-Vilis, 
unless someone has already done that one.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Spam Spam Spam Spam...
Message-ID: <19d.66884a1.2a7f37e7@aol.com>

Hunter writes:

>So does SPAM survive the Rule of Man, the Long Night and into the Third=
> Imperium? If so, is it just a Solomani thing, or have the Vilani and=
> others come to enjoy this uniquely Terran... ummm .... stuff? I'm just=
> picturing a group of adventurers finding an old Rule of Man cache,=
> stockpiled with cans of good old SPAM!

I would expect that any planet in Solomani space settled by Hawaiians would 
either create or import vast amounts.  How widespread it would get really 
depends on shelf-life and the viability of swine off Terra. It may just be 
that pigs just don't taste the same when raised elsewhere, and so all Spam 
comes from Terra...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:09:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:09:21 2002
Subject: [TML] adventure
Message-ID: <1ac.6380721.2a7f37b7@aol.com>

Traveller Adventure: Comet Busters

For referees only.  If you intend to play this adventure, quit reading now 
and direct your game referee to this page. 

(continue paging down) 










Requirements 
The adventurers must have their own ship with a cargo space of at least 3 
tons, and vacc suits for all adventurers plus three.  If the vacc suits prove 
to be a major problem then let the players find extra vacc suits in the local 
starport repair shop.  The adventure team must have at least one person with 
engineering skill, preferably two, and at least one with mechanical skill. 

Set-up 
The adventurers have the only ship presently in-system at xxxx.   While 
technically backward the world is sufficiently advanced to have astronomical 
interests.  Recently a large new comet has been detected, and calculations 
have just shown that it will collide with xxxx in less than two days.  xxxx's 
government will send a pair of generals and a squad of troops by helicopter 
to request the ship's captain to come with them to a nearby military base 
where he will meet xxxx's supreme leader.  This leader will inform the 
captain of the situation his planet faces, and will (firmly) ask him to take 
on board several nuclear weapons and a nuclear weapons team and to deliver 
them to the comet, where they hope to to break it up.  Should the captain or 
the other adventurers prove less than altruistic the government will offer 
the following as incentives:  land holdings planetside, 1 million credits, 
large business-oriented interest-free loans, and lifetime tax- and duty-free 
status, for each adventurer.  This is the "Hero of xxxx" monetary award, and 
has been awarded by this planet only a few dozen times in its history. 

Should the adventurers demand further payments the government will agree to 
anything while the crisis is pending, but will then defer payment 
authorization to the proper bureaucracy, which will deny any payment greater 
than that listed above.  "This is not constitutionally authorized etc." 

The nukes are primitive and bulky, and will require manual detonation.  Any 
member of the weapons team will volunteer as necessary to make the devices 
work. 

All payment agreements will be with the government chief executive, and will 
be verbal.  Any payments made will be on mission accomplishment, not before. 

The general population will not be notified of the impending catastrophe. 

Begin Mission 
If the adventurers' captain agrees to this mission he will be immediately 
helicoptered back to his vessel, along with several generals, a squad of 
soldiers, and three wooden-crated nuclear devices.  The cases have simple 
manual control panels on the outside, with connector jacks and hand-held 
pushbutton actuators.  They are escorted by a weapons team, two young 
lieutenants and a tough-looking sergeant who are volunteering to deliver 
these devices and detonate them.  On arrival at the ship the nukes will be 
loaded into the cargo space immediately and the adventurers will be asked to 
begin their mission without delay since time is short.  If the adventurers 
insist on inspecting the cargo before it is loaded aboard they will be 
permitted to do so.  If there are not enough vacc suits then someone should 
bring up this issue now, and a frantic general search should ensue. 

Maneuvering to the Comet 
The weapons team will have sidearms and combat knives, both visible and 
concealed, as a matter of policy.  "We can't allow transportation of nuclear 
weapons without an armed escort.  Would you?"  Their mission is to blow up 
the comet, and they'll do anything to accomplish that.  If their sidearms are 
demanded of them while aboard ship they will comply immediately but 
reluctantly, handing over their visible pistols.  If pressed they will then 
give up their visible knives.  If the concealed weapons are located and 
confiscated then the team will begin quietly noting common gear that can be 
used as weapons in an emergency, such as fire extinguishers, pliers, 
wrenches, and the like.  Each lieutenant has brawling skill 2 while the 
sergeant has brawling skill 3, meaning they will be formidable hand-to-hand 
opponents.  The team will make no attempt to stand guard directly over the 
nuclear devices but rather will stick together at all times, believing they 
have a better chance against any treachery if they work as a unit. 

The approach will take about 20 hours and will be uneventful.  Most free time 
will be spent helping the weapons team learn how to use the ship's vacc suits 
and how to function in a zero gravity environment, which skills they will 
need in order to move the weapons on the comet's surface.  Also all three 
weapons team members will express great interest in learning how the ship 
flies through space, making comments such as "I always wanted to be a pilot, 
but I never thought I'd fly in outer space" and "I hope my world learns to do 
this some day".  All will ask to sit in the pilot's seat and maneuver the 
vessel at least once.  Both officers, if engaged in coversations, will show 
pictures of their families.  If asked about his family the much older 
sergeant will only comment that he is not sentimental.  If pressed he will 
simply insist on concentrating on the mission:  "I want to go over the vacc 
suit again.  Please show me how to deal with an air leak." 

If there is any serious confrontation between the adventurers and the weapons 
team then the weapons team will make absolutely every effort to get the 
mission back on track. 

Arrival 
On arrival at the comet the weapons team will gather on the bridge with the 
adventurers to see what they're up against.  The arrival will be very rough.  
The comet will be surrounded by debris, some of it capable of damaging the 
ship, bubbling up in the turbulent atmosphere boiling off of the comet's 
surface and escaping into space.  Visibility to the surface will be poor.  
Intelligent adventurers, in the face of this obvious hull-breach hazard, will 
go to general quarters, all hands donning vacc suits and depressurizing major 
spaces.  If the adventurers have not yet thought to ask then the weapons team 
will now inform them that they need to find a crack or depression in the 
comet large enough to allow manual insertion of the weapons and deep enough 
that a weapon detonation there will cause the comet to pop apart, thus 
diverting the majority of the comet mass around the inhabited planet in a 
large ring and minimizing the size of the pieces that do hit the planet. 

At some point during the approach the sergeant (or a lieutenant) will either 
locate and retrieve the team's firearms without the adventurers' knowledge or 
he will find some suitable substitute such as a rivet gun or emergency flare 
launcher.  Whatever he finds he will put it in his vacc suit outer pocket. 

Landing 
In a few hours the comet will be too close to xxxx for the nuclear detonation 
to have any effect on its chances of hitting the planet.  A short search will 
immediately discover two likely-looking canyons.  One will be easily and 
safely approached, but may not be deep enough.  The other is definitely deep 
enough, but will be dangerous to approach.  If the ship lands near the first 
canyon it will immediately be obvious that the canyon is not deep enough and 
that the second canyon must be attempted.  There is no time to look for a 
third canyon, but if the adventurers insist on trying then they will have to 
maneuver through debris that might damage their ship.  For each turn spent 
looking roll two six-sized dice and add the pilot's skill; if 8 or higher 
(8+) then the ship's pilot successfully avoids the debris, otherwise the ship 
will be hit by a rock that causes a hull breach.  On approaching the second 
canyon roll 10+, plus pilot skill, to avoid a minor crash landing that will 
require continuous work by all engineers to fix before a takeoff can be 
attempted, and roll 10+, plus pilot skill, to avoid a collision with debris 
that will cause a minor hull breach in a primary living space.  If all ship's 
engineers work to repair the damage, roll 6+, +1 for every engineer working 
on the problem, +1 for every 15 minutes of work that has passed, every 15 
minutes, to repair the hull breach, and roll 15+, plus mechanical skill of 
the senior engineer working on the problem, +1 for every other engineer 
working on the problem, +1 for every 15 minutes of work that has passed, 
every 15 minutes, to repair the crash landing damage.  The engineers can work 
on only one job at a time, and the ship can easily maneuver even with the 
hull breach, so presumably the adventurers will seek to repair the crash 
landing damage first. 

On A Refusal 
If for some reason the adventurers refuse to procede and try to abandon the 
mission then the weapons team will draw any weapons they can, imprison the 
adventurers in a stateroom, and attempt to land the ship near the comet's 
deepest canyon.  They will crash-land, automatically doing double the damage 
specified above.  The adventurers may, of course, attempt to resist this 
hijacking. 

On The Surface 
When the ship lands, whether gracefully or not, the weapons team will 
immediately begin manhandling the nuclear devices out of the ship's cargo 
bay.  Two of them will only be able to move one weapon at a time, while one 
remains in the cargo bay door with weapons left there while others are being 
moved.  All of them, having little zero gravity experience, will have to work 
slowly to make any progress.  They will request assistance from the 
adventurers (one lieutenant will release the adventurers, if they were 
hijacked, and then immediately go back outside), with assurances that the 
adventurers will not have to remain behind to detonate the bombs and that 
they will have time to get away. 

Before (if) any adventurers move out to assist the weapons team a patch of 
high-speed debris will strike the soldiers, puncturing their suits.  The two 
lieutenants will die, while the sergeant will succeed in emergency patching 
his suit but be seriously wounded.  The weapons and the ship will will be 
undamaged.  If no adventurers are moving out to assist the weapons team, or 
if they retreat, the sergeant will again request assistance, stating that he 
himself is unable to continue. 

If the adventurers refuse to help then the sergeant will arm the weapons and 
threaten to detonate them immediately if the adventurers do not complete the 
job.  If the adventurers still refuse to assist, he will do so.  The 
detonation will be successful and save the planet entirely on 10+, else save 
it but with great damage on 8+.  The ship and adventurers will be destroyed.  
The adventurers will be unable, because of terrain and angle, to bring any 
ship's weapons to bear against the sergeant without first lifting off and 
gaining altitude from the comet, which action will be immediately visible to 
him. 

If the adventurers assist involuntarily then the sergeant will supervise them 
with the recovered gun in one hand and the pushbutton actuator in the other.  
The referee will have to adjudicate further action.  If the adventurers 
succeed in placing the weapons to the sergeant's satisfaction he will dismiss 
them, giving them a time limit to get away before he manually detonates the 
nukes.  If the adventurers assist voluntarily the sergeant will be unable to 
help move the nukes but he will be able to supervise weapon placement.   

Time pressure will be very high.  The mission is fast approaching a point 
where it will be too late for the planned detonation to affect the comet's 
impact on the planet.  The sergeant will be fully aware of that time, having 
marked it on his watch, and he will goad the adventurers as necessary to 
hurry.  If that point is reached before the weapons are fully placed then he 
will detonate the weapons immediately regardless of any other consideration.  
If the detonation time is getting very close and it looks as if the weapons 
will not be fully placed he will stop goading the adventurers so as to keep 
them calm and working until the last possible minute.  While moving the 
weapons under this time pressure each adventurer must at some point roll 12+ 
once, plus dexterity stat, to avoid injury due to haste in handling large 
objects in close quarters in zero gravity.  Injuries will be pinched limbs.  
For each injury roll again with 12+ indicating a serious injury leaving the 
adventurer unable to contribute any further effort towards moving the 
weapons. 

If the engineers finish repairs then they may quickly join the effort to move 
the nukes down the canyon. 

The Find 
As the adventurers are moving the weapons to the bottom of the canyon, their 
vacc suit headlamps shining in the darkness, all will notice right away that 
there are strange shapes frozen into the glass- clear ice in both canyon 
walls.  It soon becomes apparent that the shapes are several non-humanoid 
aliens, some artifacts, and what appears to be a ship.  The aliens strongly 
resemble praying manti and are a little smaller than human-size.  They wear 
straps carrying various items of gear, but no clothing.  The ends of their 
"arms" have manipulatory organs with multiple opposing digits.  The ship 
appears to be about two hundred tons or so.  The tail section is not in view, 
and no guess as to the propulsion system can be made.  The artifacts are 
scattered about in the ice near the aliens and near the surface. 

Recovery 
After the sergeant recovers from his own amazement he will continue to insist 
on weapon placement.  When this is finished he will dismiss the adventurers 
while he remains behind to initiate the detonation.  If the adventurers have 
fully cooperated with the supreme leader and the weapons team from the very 
beginning and have otherwise been efficient then they will have enough time 
to attempt to recover artifacts from out of the ice, should they choose to 
try.  They will be able to reach up to two items per adventurer present, for 
up to a total of nine items, before time pressure forces them to abandon 
further excavation and to head for the surface to escape the planned 
detonation.  If they must choose between objects then the adventurers can 
from select the following:  three iridium- colored hollow tubes 1" diameter 
6" long, two palm-sized saucer-shaped metal disks ringed with buttons, two 
plain silver balls 2" in diameter, about half of an alien's head, and one 
entire alien arm.  If the players ask if they can take pictures then remind 
them that their vacc suits incorporate videocams and that they can fully 
record, in high definition digital format, all that they see as they work. 

Escape 
As the adventurers return to their ship any repair crew should have had six 
chances to repair the ship should they have needed to do so.  If the ship is 
not yet repaired and the adventurers have been efficient in their use of time 
then they should have two more chances to repair the damage and resume flight 
without having to worry about blast from the nukes.  If a final roll is 
necessary (and successful) before flight is possible then the adventurers 
will escape but their vessel will likely take serious damage from fragments 
of the blasted comet (repeat the damage and repair possibilities listed 
earlier in Landing).  If damaged, the ship must be repaired in two hours or 
it will burn up in the planet's atmosphere.  If the vessel is still on the 
surface of the comet when detonation takes place then the ship will 
automatically take all damage listed in Landing (no roll) and again must be 
repaired in two hours or burn up in the planet's atmosphere.  In addition to 
this, each crew member must roll less than or equal to both his strength stat 
and dexterity stat or be injured sufficiently to be unable to participate in 
any repair effort. 

The Artifacts 

Iridium Tubes 
Saucers 
Silver Balls 
Manti Body Parts 

Aftermath 
If the adventure team acted in a timely manner and did not engage in 
excessive delays then the planet will suffer only minor damage from pieces of 
the destroyed comet, and the adventure team will be paid to the limit 
previously specified.  If, however, the adventure team failed to perform 
expeditiously then upon their return they will find that large pieces of the 
comet have impacted the planet.  Overall damage to the planet's biosphere and 
human population will be moderate and temporary.  Damage to the government, 
however, will be fatal -- the capitol city, governing center, and starport 
will have been destroyed by a nearby strike.  All who knew of the adventure 
team's involvement in trying to stop the comet, including the supreme leader 
and senior military officers, as well as all who knew of any payment 
arrangements made with the adventurers, will have been killed in the impact.  
If they press their case and an investigation is launched they will have 
little evidence of their roll in this matter.  Astronomers will report that 
they did in fact notify the government of the impending collision, but they 
will have no knowledge of what action the supreme leader took regarding this 
information.  Surviving witnesses may report that an off-world ship did 
arrive recently at the starport near the capitol, and then leave shortly 
before the comet fragments impacted, but none of them will have any idea who 
it was or where this ship went after departing.  The nuclear scientists will 
say they received valid orders to hastily assemble the devices and turn them 
over to the military weapons team, but they have no idea where the weapons 
went after that.  If the adventurers made video records of their activities 
then the remaining governmental organs may be persuaded that the adventurers 
did in fact contribute to the partial saving of xxxx -- provided, of course, 
that these records show the adventurers cooperating with the weapons team and 
not needing to be coerced into taking action. 

If the adventurers failed to deliver the weapons at all then the planet xxxx 
will be severely traumatized by the comet's full impact, with tremendous 
damage to the population and the biosphere.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:11:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:11:56 2002
Subject: [TML] marking
Message-ID: <a1.2b5a23c4.2a7f3862@aol.com>

Charles (CHam628781@aol.com) writes:

>Do male Aslan mark their territory?
>

Yes, but with a fence, axe, or plasma gun...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:19:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:19:04 2002
Subject: [TML] adventure
Message-ID: <memo.604253@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <1ac.6380721.2a7f37b7@aol.com>
Nice :-)

Keep it up.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <006801c23c1f$2c8101a0$195d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <B9732F75.68182%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/4/02 6:10 PM, Alan Bradley at abradley1@bigpond.com wrote:

>=20
> I wouldn't underestimate the frequency of PTSD among WWI and WWII vets. I=
've
> spent quite a bit of time talking to widows of WWII vets, and quite a lot=
 of
> them have horror stories of how their husbands would sometimes lose the
> plot.
>=20
> The POWs seem to have had the most problems, of course. This seems to be
> true even when they were held by the Germans and Italians, rather than by
> the Japanese.
>=20
> As for WWI, well, let's just say that Australia started having a bit of a
> drug problem after 1918.

True.  There was battle fatigue and shell shock.  Many of these cases laste=
d
well beyond the war.  Actor Charles Durning, who served as an Army Ranger
and participated in both the D-Day landings and the battle of the bulged ha=
s
said that he continues to have nightmares about his military service to thi=
s
day.  There are, of course, numerous examples from both world wars and Kore=
a
of what we would now call PTSD.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:24:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:24:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Yes PM
In-Reply-To: <B96B1B3E.66A00%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20804.182449.3P9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 7/29/02 4:11 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>
>> 
>> Or let it burn up in a planetary atmosphere (though getting away with
>> that requires a low tech planet without much in the way of orbital
>> survielance.
>
> How big a signature would a body have?  Just another meterorite?

One that parted company with a ship entering or leaving orbit.

At the very least, you'd get a fine for trash dumping if it was
noticed. 

In low orbit *we* track stuff down to marble size. 

Since "ballistic entry" of "stealthed" packages would be a great way to
smuggle relatively rugged items, ships would get a lot of monitoring on
approach to any planet that cares about smuggling.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:25:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:25:33 2002
Subject: UFO TV Series [was: Re: [TML] Sub-FTL Travel in MT]
In-Reply-To: <B96B2C17.66A13%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20804.182951.3v1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 7/29/02 4:16 PM, George A. Boyett at gboyett@msn.com wrote:
>
>> I'm 36 and I remember that series.
>
> I'm 39. 
>> 
>> One thing I can't remember is the name of the organization that fought
>> the aliens.
>
> SHADO

Supreme
Headquarters
Alien
Defence
Organization

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:26:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:26:47 2002
Subject: [TML] getting rid of a body (was Re: Yes PM)
In-Reply-To: <3D45F676.C97C7157@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20804.190552.6d6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>
>> At 05:04 PM 7/29/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>>
>> >A good high-fire kiln, for firing porcelain, e.g., gets up to about
>> >3,000F if I recall correctly.  That shouldn't leave anything of a
>> >body but ash.  I think the DNA will be completely unrecoverable --
>> >but I hope that those of you who know will speak up (both sides in my
>> >current campaign might want to know).  My art school friends and I
>> >used to think that that was probably the best way to get rid of a
>> >body at TL 7.
>>
>
> If your planet is so equiped, i would think a volcano would be a great
> low-tech body disposal resource.

As long as it's a Kileaua(sp) type that has lots of nice *fluid* lava.
The sort we have on the West Coast are pretty much useless for that
sort of thing.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:27:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:27:59 2002
Subject: [TML] getting rid of a body (was Re: Yes PM)
In-Reply-To: <20020730000444.42371.qmail@web20415.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20804.185754.8D0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Yes PM
>>Both the wood chipper and pig methods have been used in cases where 
>>the forensics people *were* able to recover enough evidence to ID
> the
>>remains as human and get a DNA ID.
>
> [deletion]
>
>>For Traveller, it's going to be hard to beat this:
>
> [deletion]
>
>>Using pure oxygen, the body would likely burn weel. And hot. But
> this
>>is apt to be impractical. If you've got HEPlaR, then you can just
>>vaporize the body. 
>>
>>Or you could just dump it out the lock in jump. 
>>
>>Or let it burn up in a planetary atmosphere (though getting away
> with
>>that requires a low tech planet without much in the way of orbital
>>survielance.
>
> A good high-fire kiln, for firing porcelain, e.g., gets up to about
> 3,000F if I recall correctly.  That shouldn't leave anything of a
> body but ash.  I think the DNA will be completely unrecoverable --
> but I hope that those of you who know will speak up (both sides in my
> current campaign might want to know).  My art school friends and I
> used to think that that was probably the best way to get rid of a
> body at TL 7.  

Next time you have access to one, toss in a pound of meat. Including
fresh bone. 

It'll take a long time and produce a *lot* of smoke. And what I'm told
is a *very* distinct odor. 

As well as depositing soot and other things all over the place.

And teeth, being damn near porcelian already, will take a long time to
calcine. The ends of the thigh bones are pretty durable as well.

> Now at Traveller tech levels, you can make a body disappear
> completely by dumping it into a star or into jump space.  Even
> putting it into a cometary orbit should make it impossible to find
> without specific information.  I should think that a body dropped
> into a gas giant's atmosphere would be impossible to find, too.

Putting it into a cometary orbit requires being unobserved. 

> All of the foregoing options assume access to a starship or at least
> a small craft.  What about the lower-echelon wise guy, who only has a
> grav speeder?  How about someplace where they melt metal?

They'll be more than a little upset at all the impurities in the melt. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] getting rid of a body (was Re: Yes PM)
In-Reply-To: <p05111710b96c7691308f@[192.168.0.2]>
Message-ID: <20804.190929.3R3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 5:04 PM -0700 7/29/02, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>
>>Now at Traveller tech levels, you can make a body disappear
>>completely by dumping it into a star or into jump space.  Even
>>putting it into a cometary orbit should make it impossible to find
>>without specific information.  I should think that a body dropped
>>into a gas giant's atmosphere would be impossible to find, too.
>
>         I think the trick with dumping a body into a star or large 
> planet is making sure you have the oribital mechanics right so it 
> actually goes into the target body and not into orbit.  OTOH, if 
> you're dealing with dumping a body in space, maybe it's enough to 
> just give the body enough velocity out your airlock in an empty 
> direction.  Chances are, it'll never be found anyway.

There are a *lot* of folks in jail after putting bodies in places where
the chances were that said bodies would never be found.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:34:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:34:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Warghame ----> Nightmare?
Message-ID: <194.af51b03.2a7f3c97@aol.com>

>But seriously, the comm delay and limited intelligence turned a wargame into
>a nightmare.

Commo delays and limited intelligence are half the fun of a decent wargame. I 
love large, multiplayer exercises -- the umpires don't have to insert the 
"fog of war" because the players provide it themselves!

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:38:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:38:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020804232303.7408.33320.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <006701c23c1f$2baff600$195d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <033401c23c28$9dc0c590$7400a8c0@matt>

Alan Bradley wrote:
>> From: Mark Urbin
>> At 08:19 AM 8/5/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>>> richard honeycutt wrote:
>>>>       How many dinky airless rockballs with large populations do
>>>> the world generation rules permit?
>>> What does that matter?  They obviously don't need trade for
>>> survival. It's not like they'll starve if you isolate them.
>>
>> On what do you base that on?
>
> I believe he was being sarcastic.
>
> Mind you, I suspect many rockballs would have extensive greenhouses.
> They wouldn't necessarily live on imports and Soylent Green.
>
> At least, if _I_ was planning a rockball colony, they would have
> extensive greenhouses.

And I dare say they did...

Unfortunately in the TNE setting Virus comes along and takes over, opening
airlocks etc or otherwise playing with the lifesupport. Greenhouses exposed
to vacuum, or that have pure oxygen passed into them and a spark ignited
don't tend to be overly productive... Or it plays grav pong along the access
corridors to the greenhouses... lovely food that you can't get to...

etc

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:43:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:43:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <006701c23c1f$2baff600$195d8690@computer>
References: <20020804232303.7408.33320.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804223247.0237e008@192.168.0.1>

At 11:01 AM 8/5/2002 +1000, Alan Bradley wrote:
> > From: Mark Urbin
> > At 08:19 AM 8/5/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
> > >richard honeycutt wrote:
> > > >       How many dinky airless rockballs with large populations do the
> > > > world generation rules permit?
> > >What does that matter?  They obviously don't need trade for survival.
> > >It's not like they'll starve if you isolate them.
> > On what do you base that on?
>I believe he was being sarcastic.

I don't think he was.

>Mind you, I suspect many rockballs would have extensive greenhouses. They
>wouldn't necessarily live on imports and Soylent Green.
>At least, if _I_ was planning a rockball colony, they would have extensive
>greenhouses.

So would I.  Now, your rockball is on a trade route.  A jump away is a nice 
size 7 planet with a standard atmosphere, and plenty of water.
They have amber fields of grain, huge herds of groats, and a wide variety 
of various fresh foods.
They don't like strip mining, you like reasonably fresh beef...
Keep this trade cycle up for a few hundred years.

It will be the wackos waiting for the world to end who demand that 100% of 
all needed foodstuffs be grown locally.
Everybody sane knows that tons of fresh food arrive every week...
Ya, that algae is good for you, but it tastes funny and turns everything green!

The supply ships stop coming...and you're only producing enough food 
locally to feed 50-60% of the population.
Even if the local leaders have the will to implement rationing, are they 
able to enforce it?


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"This has the characteristic look and feel of a complete fiasco."
                 http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:45:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:45:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Landgrab Vilis
Message-ID: <3D4DE550.CE9DD052@mail.cswnet.com>

Alright! Welcome to the neighborhood. I've been pushing the border
worlds hard hoping people would snag'em. About Garda-Vilis: I seem to
think someone grabed it somewhere along the way, but the landgrab
website does'nt show it. I'd snag'em both immediatly and see if anyone
objects. It wouldnt hurt to try anyway [shrug].

Some of your Imperial neighbors [within 6 parsecs]:
Ficant/Vilis        A. M-Vallance
Saurus/Vilis        Iain Williams
Tavonni/Vilis       David Jaques-Watson
Zeta 2/Vilis        Jason Barnabas
and of course, me:
Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:47:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:47:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: meduim navies
Message-ID: <OFAB92C96B.2F360646-ONCA256C0C.000E60F9@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Dan wrote:
>I seperated it
>because I deemed that income coming from Shionthy would be in the form
>of collected CT-Shards, which would not go to local Imperial forces but
>rather get sent off to an appropriate depot and/or research station.

No, no, no, _Marc_ is receiving income from sending out _his_ collected CT 
shards - Oh! I see what you meant.

;-)  ;-)

(There's that razor-sharp wit again - must be Monday!)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] getting rid of a body (was Re: Yes PM)
Message-ID: <200208050251.MBX00823@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson says
<snip the drawbacks of the various ways>
I still think my method of lime, sulfur, and water works 
rather well - I remember the demonstration we received with a 
pig carcass - the bones and teeth were gone after a week 
underground with the mixture.

If you're lucky, and you work near a steel mill, there are 
tanks where they recycle the sulfuric acid - they keep it at 
about 18 M.  Drop someone in that (watch the splash) and 
there won't be anything left.  The recycling process will 
take care of the impurities.

In the various Traveller campaigns I played in, the 
characters invariably ended up with some sort of Italian 
firign squad situation aboard ship.  Provided that the pilot, 
navigator, and engineer weren't greased in this display of un-
intelligence, the resulting bodies (and often, the protesting 
wounded) were blown out of the airlock in jump space.  
Sometimes, people killed aboard ship while in port were 
stuffed into the freezer or low berth until they could be 
disposed of.

One crew had this happen with such regularity that a low 
berth was permanently rigged to show low level life signs, in 
case a customs official was suspicious about the person 
inside.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 21:02:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 20:02:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Landgrab Vilis
In-Reply-To: <3D4DE550.CE9DD052@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804225914.02142128@192.168.0.1>

If John doesn't mind, I could do Garda-Vilis.
Filling in details around his outlines or vice-versa.

At 09:39 PM 8/4/2002 -0500, Roseberry wrote:
>Alright! Welcome to the neighborhood. I've been pushing the border
>worlds hard hoping people would snag'em. About Garda-Vilis: I seem to
>think someone grabed it somewhere along the way, but the landgrab
>website does'nt show it. I'd snag'em both immediatly and see if anyone
>objects. It wouldnt hurt to try anyway [shrug].
>
>Some of your Imperial neighbors [within 6 parsecs]:
>Ficant/Vilis        A. M-Vallance
>Saurus/Vilis        Iain Williams
>Tavonni/Vilis       David Jaques-Watson
>Zeta 2/Vilis        Jason Barnabas
>and of course, me:
>Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 21:04:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 20:04:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
Message-ID: <138.1260f901.2a7f16a9@cs.com>

--part1_138.1260f901.2a7f16a9_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 8/4/02 12:11:08 AM Central Daylight Time, 
res053z0@gten.net writes:


> (Doug says, 'Who is Richard Tucholka?' )
> 
> Stalking the Night Fantastic, Fringeworthy, FTL 2448
> 
> 

Speaking of which, does anyone know where I might find a good-condition copy 
of FTL:2448? I've looked all over the place, both online and in RL and I've 
never been able to find anything. I've got everything else TriTac's put out 
and I'm wanting to complete my collection.

Simon Jester
Damage169@cs.com

--part1_138.1260f901.2a7f16a9_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 8/4/02 12:11:08 AM Central Daylight Time, res053z0@gten.net writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">(Doug says, 'Who is Richard Tucholka?' )
<BR>
<BR>Stalking the Night Fantastic, Fringeworthy, FTL 2448
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>Speaking of which, does anyone know where I might find a good-condition copy of FTL:2448? I've looked all over the place, both online and in RL and I've never been able to find anything. I've got everything else TriTac's put out and I'm wanting to complete my collection.
<BR>
<BR>Simon Jester
<BR>Damage169@cs.com</FONT></HTML>

--part1_138.1260f901.2a7f16a9_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 21:05:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 20:05:50 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
Message-ID: <OF835496FC.46D80DAC-ONCA256C0C.000EC80C@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Robert spammed us with:
>"Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com> writes:
> 
>> So does SPAM survive the Rule of Man, the Long Night and into the
>> Third Imperium?
>
>It no longer is manufactures, but reserves of SPAM still exist.  The
>stuff lasts forever, you know...

I have it on good authority that the various shelters constructed by the 
Octagon Society were made out of old Spam tins - y'know, emergency 
supplies for stranded travellers, get it?

Why do you think those guys were so pleased to find that Ancients base on 
Fulacin - for the food! To say nothing of explaining that execrable 
10-volume poem - the writer had gone mad from eating too much of the same 
thing all the time!! And don't even get me started on the fact that, the 
instant someone invented Spam, Grandfather decided that humans were even 
dumber than worms and gave up on them as useful servants!!! Not to mention 
cutting himself off from the rest of the Universe!!!!

"IT'S ALL TRUE, I TELL YOU! HE TOLD ME SO LAST TIME I VISITED HIS POCKET 
DIMENSIO-" <whack! jab! bind!> "mmph, mmph!" <struggle>

"...and now, back to your regular scheduled programming (nothing to see 
here, move along)..."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 21:40:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sun Aug  4 20:40:25 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020805081803.B24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
 <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]>
 <20020805081803.B24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <p04330100b973a30616e9@[198.123.22.175]>

At 8:18 AM +1000 8/5/02, Timothy Little wrote:
>David P. Summers wrote:
>>  Missiles are very damaging.  However, they also can be intercepted.
>>  The utility of missiles depends on how many missiles you have vs how
>>  much point defense you foe has.
>
>Yes, I'd noticed that too.  In particular, the existing missiles and
>launchers can be greatly upgraded to achieve much better results
>against point defense for rather little cost.  However, given other
>comments it looks like doing so would take it even further away from
>previous versions of Traveller. :-/

I'm not sure about missles, but in fact playtest versions of 
starships had "point defense lasers" (less damage, higher rof).
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 21:55:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Sun Aug  4 20:55:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat
References: <c5.26be7ee0.2a7caa89@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4DF711.5C3C76CD@pobox.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>  >In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships which have an armor
>  >factor of 13 or less.
>
> With a fusion gun?  I'm sorry, you must be using rules I'm not familiar with.
>  I was thinking of High Guard.
> _______________________________________________

In sufficient numbers they can _mission-kill_ (i.e. render combat-ineffective)
ships which have armor 13 or less, according to HG2.

A code-5 fusion gun will hit a agility-6 ship of greater than 20kdton with a roll
of 10 on 2d6.  It penetrates code-9 sand on a 8.

Against a ship with Armor-13, one in 36 fusion gun hits will do a Weapon -1 on
the Surface Explosion table.  Enough of these, and the target vessel will have no
weapons, which will render it unable to perform its mission, hence the term
mission-kill.  The ship can still maneuver and escape.

Against Armor-11, fuel hits are possible, and the target can be disabled by loss
of fuel.

In both cases, many hits are required, but that's why it says "in sufficient
numbers".

WKH


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 21:56:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Sun Aug  4 20:56:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat
References: <c5.26be7ee0.2a7caa89@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4DF72F.D22EE3FC@pobox.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>  >In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships which have an armor
>  >factor of 13 or less.
>
> With a fusion gun?  I'm sorry, you must be using rules I'm not familiar with.
>  I was thinking of High Guard.
> _______________________________________________

In sufficient numbers they can _mission-kill_ (i.e. render combat-ineffective)
ships which have armor 13 or less, according to HG2.

A code-5 fusion gun will hit a agility-6 ship of greater than 20kdton with a roll
of 10 on 2d6.  It penetrates code-9 sand on a 8.

Against a ship with Armor-13, one in 36 fusion gun hits will do a Weapon -1 on
the Surface Explosion table.  Enough of these, and the target vessel will have no
weapons, which will render it unable to perform its mission, hence the term
mission-kill.  The ship can still maneuver and escape.

Against Armor-11, fuel hits are possible, and the target can be disabled by loss
of fuel.

In both cases, many hits are required, but that's why it says "in sufficient
numbers".

WKH


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 22:00:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Sun Aug  4 21:00:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat HULL THICKNESS LIMITATION
References: <190.ad335f8.2a7ca953@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4DF7E3.D8D36B56@pobox.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>  >HULL
>  >185.000 tons standard, 2,590.000 cubic meters, Planetoid Configuration
>
> In a Planetoid Configuration of this size the maximum thickness of the outer
> hull is 0.6 meters and likely much less.  If this ship were 185,000 tons, the
> maximum outer thickness of the outer hull would be 6.0 meters.  Yet in both
> cases they are considered to be naturally armor 3.  I think there should be a
> lower limit on allowable tonnages for Planetoid and Buffered Planetoid ships.

Perhaps this could be a house rule.  I am not aware of such a rule in HG2.

WKH


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 22:10:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 21:10:47 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020805075953.A24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
 <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <20020805075953.A24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3436.64.8.3.28.1028520584.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

> Oh.  Here was I thinking that the missiles were suboptimal and could
> have been designed better and cheaper.  For example, it is trivial to
> design a missile turret that can launch and control 20 missiles per
> combat turn, each costing less than half as much with better
> acceleration and damage.

There is always the ability to design bigger and faster missiles using
GURPS VEHICLES and the guidelines presented with TRAVELLER itself.  A
friend of mine created an inertial guided missile that removes the
explosive warhead from the missile and turned it into a kinetic kill
device.  It all depends on the choices made by the game designer as well
as the GM.  Each change you make to *your* traveller universe takes it a
little further away from the "official" traveller universe as presented in
GURPS TRAVELLER (which doesn't bother me one bit!!!)


>>  I personally do not use the GURPS STARSHIP combat rules as
>>  presented,
>
> Do you use something close, or a drastic re-write?  (Or not at all?)

What I use is based essentially on GURPS TRAVELLER and MAYDAY vector
rules.  Missiles in my games end up being really NASTY!  In my games,
fighters can move to within passive sensor range of their enemy, send
information back to a missile frigate that is outside of sensor range of
an enemy target.  The missile frigate then starts a high speed run against
the intended target and launches its missiles outside of sensor range of
an enemy ship.  Since the missiles are now separated from the ship which
has not been seen on enemy sensor screens as yet, they coast in undetected
until it is FAR too late.  In my games?  It is theoretically possible for
a missile to slam into a ship hull at speeds in excess of 90 hexes per
turn...  Do the math and see how much damage a single missile moving at 90
hexes per turn does ;)


>> nor am I pleased with rendition of the Meson weapons in the GURPS
>> TRAVELLER rule set.
>
> They do look a little icky to me too.  What bothers you most?


What bothers me most is that Meson Screens in High Guard usually had a
GOOD chance of stopping the damage *entirely*.  In GURPS TRAVELLER, Meson
screens *always* let damage through.  In HIGH GUARD, the odds of securing
a meson hit to begin with against an unscreened target is rather High
(statistically speaking).  In GURPS, the way to have a highter potential
for hitting, you increase the odds of hitting by putting out more
firepower.  In my opinion, the best way to have handled Meson weaponry
would have been to lower their effective damage, but increase its rate of
fire.  Why?

Rememember in High Guard, the higher your "letter" value of weapon versus
the letter value of the hull size - you got 1 crit hit?  Same "effect"
could be secured in a GURPS TRAVELLER game by using the higher rate of
fire aspect.  The better you roll to hit, the more hits you secure against
your target.  Thus, for me, the best way to build GURPS TRAVELLER meson
weapons is to have them do less damage, but have a higher rate of fire -
increasing their accuracy value.  A roll made by say, +6, means the ship
took what, 3 hits?  And if the ship doesn't have meson screens, three hits
are NASTY.


Oh well.  The best thing about GURPS TRAVELLER and GURPS VEHICLES - is you
can create *any* technological innovations you want for your campaign. 
You can build internally consistant weapon systems you can think of that
are presented within both TRAVELLER and GURPS VEHICLES.  You want fire and
forget Missiles for your Traveller Universe?  You can build them.  YOu
want robotic ships?  GURPS VEHICLES has rules for it.  You want to know
what the results are of a 50 lb rock tossed via a Trebuchet against a Far
Trader's hull?  GURPS VEHICLES has rules for it.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 22:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 21:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020805081803.B24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
 <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]>
 <20020805081803.B24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3688.64.8.3.28.1028521212.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

> It seems that would be a good idea if your ship needs to spend a long
> time away from resupply, but not good for actual battle capability.
> Using the full Vehicles rules, I was unable to design a craft that
> could mount enough point defense weapons to last more than a round or
> two.
>
> The other problem I noted is the short range of direct-fire weapons.
> None of the presented beams could touch anything beyond 30 hexes.
> Missiles (even the wimpy predesigned ones) can hit from 50 or so
> hexes.

What you do is build lasers whose only purpose of existance is to damage
missiles.  Build those lasers so that you have a high rate of fire.  Keep
in mind that missiles are fired upon during the point defense phase...




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 22:24:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 21:24:04 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805002239.02142128@mail.charter.net>

What is the TL of  the Imperium & the Terran Confederation in the Year 1000 
setting of T20?



-----------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Whether you're Bill Clinton or the head of a large
corporation like Enron, it seems the best defense
in any legal matter is to act like you just arrived
on the planet." -- Spencer F. Katt
-----------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 22:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Sun Aug  4 21:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net><m3ofclg93m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org><004301c23a04$8cdeff60$0112bd50@martinjd><m3eldhkv8o.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org><00aa01c23a5c$4f293ca0$5d0bbd50@martinjd> <m3bs8lj5c2.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> <012601c23a78$2c1d4f00$5d0bbd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3D4E00D2.3BF3156C@pobox.com>

MJ Dougherty wrote:

> >
> > Well, if you can damp inertia and can create artificial gravity, I'm
> > pretty certain that you can fake high-g effects (or rather, create
> > them).  I don't think that the physics would necessarily be all that
> > difficult; trivial, probably, for a society which has those things.
> >
>
> If you can do these things, then simulator problems I've outlined are
> greatly diminished (most of them). I don't imagine this sort of thing is
> available for $35 in a playstation game, though.

Remember the movie "The Last Starfighter", where the video game was actually
a simulation?

I could see the IN covertly running a string of "reality arcades", where
kids can come and play the latest simulator games against each other.  The
best 'players' win a visit from an IN recruiter.

WKH


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 22:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Sun Aug  4 21:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net><m3ofclg93m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org><004301c23a04$8cdeff60$0112bd50@martinjd><m3eldhkv8o.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org><00aa01c23a5c$4f293ca0$5d0bbd50@martinjd> <m3bs8lj5c2.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> <012601c23a78$2c1d4f00$5d0bbd50@martinjd> <3D4E00D2.3BF3156C@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <00ed01c23c3b$7d2af720$9307b286@Shane>

Bill Hopper wrote:
> Remember the movie "The Last Starfighter", where the video game was
actually
> a simulation?
>
> I could see the IN covertly running a string of "reality arcades", where
> kids can come and play the latest simulator games against each other.  The
> best 'players' win a visit from an IN recruiter.

Though for optimum testing conditions, parts of the video game arcade should
periodically explode, catch fire and/or depressurize during the games.
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- IN Recyc System Maintenance Sim v3.0 - So real you can
smell it.
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 23:40:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 22:40:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Astronomy Boffin Question
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEKAIKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

How big can a rocky asteroid be and still be irregular?

_______________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 02:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 01:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Warghame ----> Nightmare?
Message-ID: <memo.609810@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <194.af51b03.2a7f3c97@aol.com>
> >But seriously, the comm delay and limited intelligence turned a 
> wargame into
> >a nightmare.
> 
> Commo delays and limited intelligence are half the fun of a decent 
> wargame. I love large, multiplayer exercises -- the umpires don't have 
> to insert the "fog of war" because the players provide it themselves!

It's the only kind of wargame I enjoy...

I remember a very good one with 4 teams, each in separate rooms with maps 
& radios, plus an umpire team. 2 teams on each side... but the radios were 
on a common frequency! We were allowed to use runners as well, but only to 
the umpires, not to the other team on our side (we could send them written 
messages, but via the umpires which meant they were often garbled or not 
delivered). 

Then one of us realised that the other team on our side was in the room 
next door... so we hung out the window and passed messages that way :-)

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 03:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 02:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat
Message-ID: <d1.1c5d7500.2a7f99af@aol.com>

 >>  >In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships which have an armor
 >>  >factor of 13 or less.
 >>
 >> With a fusion gun?  I'm sorry, you must be using rules I'm not familiar 
with.
 >>  I was thinking of High Guard.
 >> _______________________________________________
 >
 >In sufficient numbers they can _mission-kill_ (i.e. render 
combat-ineffective)
 >ships which have armor 13 or less, according to HG2.
 >
 >A code-5 fusion gun will hit a agility-6 ship of greater than 20kdton with 
a roll
 >of 10 on 2d6.  It penetrates code-9 sand on a 8.
 >
 >Against a ship with Armor-13, one in 36 fusion gun hits will do a Weapon -1 
on
 >the Surface Explosion table.  Enough of these, and the target vessel will 
have no
 >weapons, which will render it unable to perform its mission, hence the term
 >mission-kill.  The ship can still maneuver and escape.

My tables say a factor 5 fusion gun will hit a 20kton AG6 ship on a roll of 
(6 base + 6 agility - 1 size = ) 11+.  Yeah, I see your point, though I would 
take repairs into account.  But I think a capital ship has armor 15.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 03:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 02:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804192145.024cac00@192.168.0.1>
References: <02080313391901.00601@linux> <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020804192145.024cac00@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020805191412.A25687@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> At 08:19 AM 8/5/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
> >What does that matter?  They obviously don't need trade for survival.
> >It's not like they'll starve if you isolate them.
> 
> On what do you base that on?

The fact that high-pop worlds (including airless rockballs) have very
little trade compared to their population.  If they relied on external
trade for food they would all have starved to death long ago.

Look at Kwai Ching, for example (as one you should be familiar with :)
Its per-capita imports from all the other systems in the subsector
combined are about 0.8 Cr/week.  Whatever the population is eating
every day, it isn't imported food.  Kwai Ching actually has
significantly more than the median per-capita trade for high-pop
vacuum worlds.

Obviously most of them (probably all) have local means of production.
They may import some luxury foods (who doesn't?), but certainly not
staples.  This is not surprising -- the level of technology required
to grow food plants and animals is not exactly excessive or costly,
and the side-benefits include the ability to recycle your organic
wastes, air and water.  That's much better than importing food at a
large markup.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 03:30:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 02:30:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Junk in space
In-Reply-To: <20804.181110.0M6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020730104900.B2820@freeman.little-possums.net> <20804.181110.0M6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020805192941.B25687@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Somehow, I doubt that the speed of sound in starship hull material is
> 20 km/sec!

I used 1 MJ as a *maximum* energy, for a 30-gram object travelling at
10 km/s.  If you want to drop the mass to 5 grams, drop the energy to
250 kJ.

And yes, I expect the speed of sound in starship hull material to be
no less than 20 km/s.

Hull armour is known to be both extremely rigid *and* requires a lot
of energy to penetrate.  Note that some existing materials already
exceed 15 km/s, and materials in the Far Future are likely to be even
more so.  I would not rule out 40+ km/s for lightweight TL12 armour.


> Are you going to dodge? Or try to blow it up?

Either would be easy.  Let the ship's captain decide.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 03:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 02:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <006701c23c1f$2baff600$195d8690@computer>
References: <20020804232303.7408.33320.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <006701c23c1f$2baff600$195d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <20020805193038.C25687@freeman.little-possums.net>

Alan Bradley wrote:
> I believe he was being sarcastic.

No, quite serious.


> At least, if _I_ was planning a rockball colony, they would have
> extensive greenhouses.

Given trade figures in Traveller, they do.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 03:42:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Mon Aug  5 02:42:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <181.c196c70.2a7ed4f5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPAEBKEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

It is canon, Traveller has whopping big fleet carriers (not to mention the
Tigress class BBs) which carry huge number of fighters.

The imperium obviously believes they have a need for large numbers of
fighters. AFAIK carrier squadrons are equated with cruiser squadrons (see
Fighting Ships) and presumably carry out some of the same missions. Commerce
raiding is possible but would you need a fleet carrier for that?

So given that carrier squadrons exist if they are totally useless against
other cruiser squadrons what would they be used for. I submit it could also
mean that point defence systems are not as good as the navy would have us
believe.

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 04:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Freelance Traveller)
Date: Mon Aug  5 03:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] [www] 5 Aug 2002 - Freelance Traveller NOT Updated :(
Message-ID: <o7jsku0jgg9j6krr0eajhh6hu0q40eqjoc@4ax.com>

Due to an unexpected confluence of factors, mostly involving the effect of
weather on human activities (we lost power Friday evening when a tree took
down some wires down the block during the storm, and I spent most of
Saturday recovering from a fifteen-hour outage), I haven't been able to get
an update together for this week.  However, if I can survive this week at
work, and if we don't get another frog-drowner of a storm that kills power,
I'll post an update this coming weekend, and, if I'm lucky, a *really*
*massive* update a week later - I have the intervening week as vacation!

Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture 
Enterprises, 1977-2000.  Use of the trademark in 
this notice and in the referenced materials is not 
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.freelancetraveller.com
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
editor@freelancetraveller.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 04:21:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 03:21:08 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller - more
In-Reply-To: <186.b850971.2a77a260@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20805.002325.7j9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>  >The W-71 
>  >thermonuclear device had a yield of 5 megatons.  I feel it's 
>  >fair to put the typical Traveller missile in this yield range.
>
> no, it's not.  that's huge.  as I understand it the united states doesn't 
> even have weapons that large in its inventory anymore -- they're all in the 
> 10 to 100 kton range.
>
> consider a ship with 10 missile bays.  at 30 missiles per salvo, 100 salvos 
> per bay, 10 bays, that's 30,000 weapons.  I think that that's more than the 
> entire present world inventory, on one dinky ship.  that's a lot of 
> fissionable material, and it all has a shelf-life, and each warhead has to 
> fit onto a relatively small missile.  five megs is too much.

Actually, given some of the other tech, the weapons could be fusion
warheads that don't *need* a fission trigger.

>>As for nuclear weapons effects in space, the Project Orion 
>>ship was using fairly "small" yields at a distance of several 
>>hundred meters from the pusher plate, that was high strength 
>>steel with another material for a coating.  Too close, and 
>>even the small bomb would vaporize the pusher plate.
>
> well then it sounds like nuclear weapons are all anyone would need or want, 
> because no ship could withstand them.  unless, of course, as someone said 
> elsewhere in this packet, "by tech 12 or 13 they darn well ought to have 
> solved that problem".

The problem is that given anti-missile lasers, you aren't going to get
a nuke that *close*.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 04:23:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 03:23:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804223247.0237e008@192.168.0.1>
References: <20020804232303.7408.33320.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <006701c23c1f$2baff600$195d8690@computer> <5.1.0.14.0.20020804223247.0237e008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020805202103.D25687@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> The supply ships stop coming...and you're only producing enough food
> locally to feed 50-60% of the population.

If you can find a high-pop world that has enough trade to feed just a
tenth of its population, even if it was importing nothing but food, I
will be surprised.

Most of them don't import enough to account for even 2% of their food
requirements, still assuming that they import nothing but food.

A 40-50% local shortfall is unsupportable by a factor of 30 or so.  It
is much more likely that most of them are producing amply enough to
feed their population.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 04:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Aug  5 03:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805002239.02142128@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <005401c23c6c$91137060$be09bd50@martinjd>

> What is the TL of  the Imperium & the Terran Confederation in the Year
1000
> setting of T20?

The Impeirum is TL 14 mostly, with Tl 15 just creeping in over the last few
years.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 04:32:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Aug  5 03:32:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Warghame ----> Nightmare?
References: <194.af51b03.2a7f3c97@aol.com>
Message-ID: <007601c23c6c$bec65a40$be09bd50@martinjd>

> >But seriously, the comm delay and limited intelligence turned a wargame
into
> >a nightmare.
>
> Commo delays and limited intelligence are half the fun of a decent
wargame. I
> love large, multiplayer exercises -- the umpires don't have to insert the
> "fog of war" because the players provide it themselves!
>

OUrs certainly did. This Nightmare was the best fun wargame I've ever
played, BTW.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 04:33:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Aug  5 03:33:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020804173620.8351.57196.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <006901c23c1f$2dd85440$195d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <008901c23c6c$e2004c00$be09bd50@martinjd>

>
> Hmm. I've always wanted to run an Arbellatra vs Gustus game. Maybe I
should
> actually do it.

You should. Then I can play


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 05:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Aug  5 04:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat
In-Reply-To: <d1.1c5d7500.2a7f99af@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4F04E9.7899.17C7EF@localhost>

On 5 Aug 2002 at 5:04, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> My tables say a factor 5 fusion gun will hit a 20kton AG6 ship on a
> roll of (6 base + 6 agility - 1 size = ) 11+.  Yeah, I see your
> point, though I would take repairs into account.  But I think a
> capital ship has armor 15. 

Armour 15 is only legal for planetoids and buffered planetoids until 
TL15, remember.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 05:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 04:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <3436.64.8.3.28.1028520584.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com> <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net> <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <20020805075953.A24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <3436.64.8.3.28.1028520584.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020805215043.E25687@freeman.little-possums.net>

hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> There is always the ability to design bigger and faster missiles using
> GURPS VEHICLES and the guidelines presented with TRAVELLER itself.

Yes, that's what I'm wondering about.  Do I want to design better
weapons and tactics for my Traveller game, at the expense of making it
less like Traveller?  Or do I try to rationalise the existing ones to
maintain compatibility with what other people have done?


>  A friend of mine created an inertial guided missile that removes
> the explosive warhead from the missile and turned it into a kinetic
> kill device.

Yes; either remove the chemical warhead or replace it with a fusion
warhead.  A chemical explosive makes little sense.  Even the standard
missiles accelerate to 72 km/s in the first round -- putting a
chemical explosive in them is a bit like putting a spring-loaded
boxing glove on an anti-tank penetrator.


> The missile frigate then starts a high speed run against the
> intended target and launches its missiles outside of sensor range of
> an enemy ship.

That works under the standard rules, too.  I've had vague thoughts in
the same direction, but didn't actually get round to testing them.


> Do the math and see how much damage a single missile moving at 90
> hexes per turn does ;)

Yes, I know.  Kinetic energy *kills*.  Give the missiles better
thrusters and an extra-heavy frame for even more (unnecessary) damage
with less run-up required.  You could even put a bunch of them on a
bus chassis so they can all share a power plant for the initial boost,
and make the individual energy banks much smaller.


> What bothers me most is that Meson Screens in High Guard usually had a
> GOOD chance of stopping the damage *entirely*.  In GURPS TRAVELLER, Meson
> screens *always* let damage through.

??  Not as I read it.

A 100k-dton ship with 7000 meson screen modules has a maximum DR vs
meson guns of about 180000.  Usually the operator will manage to
succeed on their roll by 4 and get half that, 90000.

A spinal meson gun typically does between 60000-87000 damage, so it
will usually only penetrate if the operator doesn't perform well.

It is not true that damage *always* gets through.  Granted, that is a
*lot* of shielding; 7% screens by volume.  It is protecting against
the biggest weapon in the basic book, though!


> Thus, for me, the best way to build GURPS TRAVELLER meson weapons is
> to have them do less damage, but have a higher rate of fire -
> increasing their accuracy value.

Yes, this might have been better.


> Oh well.  The best thing about GURPS TRAVELLER and GURPS VEHICLES - is you
> can create *any* technological innovations you want for your campaign. 

Yes, I quite enjoy this part.  I just have to keep reminding myself to
tone things down from the standard GURPS tech level assumptions, or I
will very rapidly find myself unable to steal other people's ideas for
my now ex-Traveller game :)


> You want to know what the results are of a 50 lb rock tossed via a
> Trebuchet against a Far Trader's hull?  GURPS VEHICLES has rules for
> it.

Yes, this sort of very wide scope is what I like best about GURPS in
general.  Given Traveller's range of planetary tech levels, this might
easily come up in a game!


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 05:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 04:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Landgrab Vilis
Message-ID: <200208051155.MCP01180@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mark Urbin says
>If John doesn't mind, I could do Garda-Vilis.
>Filling in details around his outlines or vice-versa.

Sounds OK. I seem to remember some adventure that took place 
on Garda-Vilis, and it mentions Vilis as well, so I'm going 
to have to take a look at that.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 06:03:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shadowcat)
Date: Mon Aug  5 05:03:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Large Scale Games, One Traveller, one WW3[Long]
In-Reply-To: <194.af51b03.2a7f3c97@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4E1A82.455.14DD3F@localhost>

couple of examples come to mind from the distant past, one of 
which was actually part of the playtesting for the Combined Arms 
Command Decision Rules.

many years ago, GDW along with the Central Illinois Tabletop 
Warrriors ran a couple of megagames which were part of the 
Wilderness Project, the first was the wilderness campaign from the 
American Civil War, and the second, a year later roughly, was the 
first day of WW3 based along the lines of Red Storm Rising. these 
games took place in a classroom building at the University of 
Illinois and involved dozens of players and judges. communications 
lag, fog of war and just general confusion, along with assorted rules 
problems best left for another forum, made for an interesting day.

The second game was a traveller game at a previous Winter Wars 
a couple of years after the historic Shadows tournament, which 
was called Diplomatic Mission. This was a 6 hour game with 24 
players that dealt with the reopening of trade to a redzoned world.
One Team was the on planet contact team, the other team was the 
bureaucrats and nobles who had to make the final decisions based 
on the information they were getting from the planet. the off planet 
team was a jump away, and this was represented by a 15 minute 
time lag. each team had different objectives, and each player had 
personal objectives and goals, so not everyone was working 
together or even on the same side actually.

This game lasted 6 very hectic hours, and had a grand total of 2 die 
rolls, the contact teams psi expert was revealed as a spy, and the 
teams security officer executed him on the spot pretty much.

I have seriously considered reconstructing the aspects of this 
game for another convention, or even as an IRC game, but there 
are too many problems for it to work as an IRC game.






From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 06:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 05:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <3688.64.8.3.28.1028521212.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com> <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net> <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]> <20020805081803.B24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <3688.64.8.3.28.1028521212.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020805221551.F25687@freeman.little-possums.net>

hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> What you do is build lasers whose only purpose of existance is to
> damage missiles.  Build those lasers so that you have a high rate of
> fire.

High RoF doesn't do a lot.  It just counts as a bonus to hit in the
combat system.  e.g. Multiplying the RoF by 16 gives you +4 bonus.
This would mean 2 extra hits per shot, except:

For the same volume requirement, your weapon has to use about 10 times
less energy per shot.  That cuts the damage by a factor of about 3,
which doesn't matter a lot against the standard missiles.  It will
however reduce your range by a factor of 3 -- not a problem, you say,
because you only need less than a hex?  Range directly determines
accuracy, which will thus drop by 3.

The net effect is a +1 to hit.  You're almost back where you started,
except that now your weapon is greatly restricted in its utility for
any other role.

I've been along that route :-/


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 06:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 05:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
Message-ID: <2da64f2ddca2.2ddca22da64f@us.army.mil>

----- Original Message -----
From: Hunter Gordon <trav@RPGRealms.com>
Date: Sunday, August 4, 2002 11:45 am
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)

> 
> On 8/4/2002 at 4:21 PM Antony Farrell wrote:
> 
> >Was that spam and eggs
> >or spam, spam egs and spam?
> 
> Ok gotta keep it on topic!
> 
> Pardons if this has actually been covered previously.
> 
> So does SPAM survive the Rule of Man, the Long Night and into the 
> Third Imperium? If so, is it just a Solomani thing, or have the 
> Vilani and others come to enjoy this uniquely Terran... ummm .... 
> stuff? I'm just picturing a group of adventurers finding an old 
> Rule of Man cache, stockpiled with cans of good old SPAM!

Ah, you should have saved that question for a Newbie Essay [tm]! ;-)

Actually, it's quite plausible that SPAM was a significant factor in the 
Solomanification of former Vilani worlds.  To wit:

1.  SPAM would likely be included in relief aid to former Vilani worlds 
ravaged by Terran-introduced pandemics.
2.  Given that SPAM does not require processing by shugiili, and that 
SPAM has a relatively long shelf life ("long" in a geological sense, 
that is), it would go far in breaking the power of the shugiili in 
Vilani society.
3.  Add to these factors the relative conservatism of Vilani culture and 
you find that, once SPAM was introduced on former Vilani-ruled worlds, 
it tended to remain a staple of the diet on those worlds, thus ensuring 
that SPAM would continue to be consumed (if not necessarily enjoyed) up 
into M:1100.
4.  Until such time as the fine folks at Hormel licensed the production 
of SPAM on worlds other than Earth, the Terrans would be the only source 
of this staple, thus economically binding the former Vilani worlds 
closer to Terra.  Even after SPAM production began on worlds other than 
Earth, genuine Terran SPAM was held to be superior, commanding premium 
prices.  This coopted Sharushiid into the ruling SPAM consortium.
5.  We can thus also see that the Solomani Rim War, with its focus on 
the capture of Terra, was driven by the desire to control the original 
point source of SPAM.

QED. ;-)

Hmmm.  Perhaps I should write up Hormel Foods as a megacorp using the 
Universal Corporate Profile from _101 Corporations_....



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 06:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 05:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <2e4d282e3963.2e39632e4d28@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Date: Sunday, August 4, 2002 3:26 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller


<<snip>>
> > 
> > Army?  What army?
> 
> I'll believe that when I see it. This sort of talking has always 
> turned 
> out to be wishful thinking in the past, and I see no reason why it 
> isn't now. It's all very well while you're thrashing low-tech 
> thrid-
> worlders, but sooner or later there'll be another first-world vs 
> first-
> world scrap, and spec ops teams relying on vast amounts of support 
> just 
> won't cut it.
> 
I refer readers to the Fehrenbach quote the opens Chapter 1 of GT:GF.  
Words to the effect of (quoted from memory):

You may fly over a land forever; you may bomb it, atomize it, sterilize 
it and wipe it clean of life; but if you wish to defend it for 
civilization, you must do this the way the Romans did, by putting your 
young men into the mud.

ObTrav:  1: The quote was used in a Trav book.  2: The eternal Trav 
debate of "why an Army"?  


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 06:56:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 05:56:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020805191412.A25687@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804192145.024cac00@192.168.0.1>
 <02080313391901.00601@linux>
 <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
 <02080313391901.00601@linux>
 <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020804192145.024cac00@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805084630.018ca4e0@192.168.0.1>

At 07:14 PM 8/5/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
> > At 08:19 AM 8/5/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
> > >What does that matter?  They obviously don't need trade for survival.
> > >It's not like they'll starve if you isolate them.
> > On what do you base that on?
>The fact that high-pop worlds (including airless rockballs) have very
>little trade compared to their population.  If they relied on external
>trade for food they would all have starved to death long ago.

That would depend on what they have to trade and what planets are 
convenient trading partners.
It's not a bad rule of thumb though.

>Look at Kwai Ching, for example (as one you should be familiar with :)
>Its per-capita imports from all the other systems in the subsector
>combined are about 0.8 Cr/week.  Whatever the population is eating
>every day, it isn't imported food.  Kwai Ching actually has
>significantly more than the median per-capita trade for high-pop
>vacuum worlds.

Kwai Ching is an interesting example.  They really have no choice but to 
produce the majority, if not all of their food.
They are not part of an established trading federation, and their imports 
are spotty at best due to ethically challenged merchant activity.
(that's according to GT: Behind the Claw, and the example Tim is using.)

>Obviously most of them (probably all) have local means of production.
>They may import some luxury foods (who doesn't?), but certainly not
>staples.  This is not surprising -- the level of technology required
>to grow food plants and animals is not exactly excessive or costly,
>and the side-benefits include the ability to recycle your organic
>wastes, air and water.  That's much better than importing food at a
>large markup.

To produce a variety of food that would keep a large population happy 
requires a large amount of space, water and energy.
If you have a very strict government, you can enforce a limited diet (Grand 
Chairman Mao XXXIX says you should eat green
Cereal for breakfast with soy milk, green bread (with a slice of hamster 
meat if you make your quota) for lunch, and green soup for dinner).
If you have bulk traders making a regular run through the system, and there 
is an Agricultural planet on their loop, the rockball can get a wide 
variety of foodstuffs without the large markup.

If it's not economically viable to produce 100% of the food locally, why 
should they do it?



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 07:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 06:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPAEBKEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <181.c196c70.2a7ed4f5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805085604.018d7340@192.168.0.1>

At 05:30 PM 8/5/2002 +0800, Antony Farrell wrote:
>It is canon, Traveller has whopping big fleet carriers (not to mention the
>Tigress class BBs) which carry huge number of fighters.
>
>The imperium obviously believes they have a need for large numbers of
>fighters. AFAIK carrier squadrons are equated with cruiser squadrons (see
>Fighting Ships) and presumably carry out some of the same missions. Commerce
>raiding is possible but would you need a fleet carrier for that?

Aren't fighters viable against lower tech ships?
The Imperium does maintain a tech advantage over most of it's neighbors.
Especially in those smaller governments in Reavers' Deep or Spinward of the 
Marches.
Jump in system, and swarms of fighters are bloody everywhere, at least in 
the view of the locals....

Nice saber rattle, if the Imperium can put 10+ TL E-F fighters against 
every TL A-C SDB or customs cutter the locals have.

This frees up the destroyers and Cruisers to knock out any Capital ships 
and look menacing in Orbit.

>So given that carrier squadrons exist if they are totally useless against
>other cruiser squadrons what would they be used for. I submit it could also
>mean that point defence systems are not as good as the navy would have us
>believe.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 07:02:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 06:02:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Landgrab Vilis
In-Reply-To: <200208051155.MCP01180@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805090123.018d3468@192.168.0.1>

At 07:55 AM 8/5/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>Mark Urbin says
> >If John doesn't mind, I could do Garda-Vilis.
> >Filling in details around his outlines or vice-versa.
>Sounds OK. I seem to remember some adventure that took place
>on Garda-Vilis, and it mentions Vilis as well, so I'm going
>to have to take a look at that.

Broadsword.  I have a copy.




---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 07:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon Aug  5 06:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020805041046.16273.821.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <003101c23c82$2a486dc0$b35d8690@computer>

> From: Mark
> It will be the wackos waiting for the world to end who demand that 100% of
> all needed foodstuffs be grown locally.
> Everybody sane knows that tons of fresh food arrive every week...
> Ya, that algae is good for you, but it tastes funny and turns everything
> green!

First: why are you talking about algae? Algae is for fish.

Secondly, you can probably produce _more_ food than you need, and at least
some of your "agricultural land" is likely to be used as recreational areas,
as a reserve of biomass, and as supplementary life support.

Otherwise your life support systems lack redundancy.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 07:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 06:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020805202103.D25687@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804223247.0237e008@192.168.0.1>
 <20020804232303.7408.33320.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <006701c23c1f$2baff600$195d8690@computer>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020804223247.0237e008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805090845.01831e50@192.168.0.1>

At 08:21 PM 8/5/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
> > The supply ships stop coming...and you're only producing enough food
> > locally to feed 50-60% of the population.
>
>If you can find a high-pop world that has enough trade to feed just a
>tenth of its population, even if it was importing nothing but food, I
>will be surprised.

I'll have to dig through the back lists, but I remember detailed analysis 
of the CT trading rules being done years ago.
It was determined that published trade rules didn't fit the big picture.
Large bulk traders were needed in core sectors to make it work.
Some of these traders were designed and published.

>Most of them don't import enough to account for even 2% of their food
>requirements, still assuming that they import nothing but food.
>
>A 40-50% local shortfall is unsupportable by a factor of 30 or so.  It
>is much more likely that most of them are producing amply enough to
>feed their population.

I agree with you in places like the Marches, or even more frontier settings.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 07:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Aug  5 06:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: JTAS
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D00@USCHM203>

Just wanted to add my vote. JTAS is well worth the money. The archives alone
are worth many times the subscription price.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 07:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Mon Aug  5 06:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
In-Reply-To: <2da64f2ddca2.2ddca22da64f@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020805084634.00a56560@minn.net>

At 03:46 PM 8/5/2002 +0300, john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:

>4.  Until such time as the fine folks at Hormel licensed the production 
>of SPAM on worlds other than Earth, the Terrans would be the only source 
>of this staple, thus economically binding the former Vilani worlds 
>closer to Terra.  Even after SPAM production began on worlds other than 
>Earth, genuine Terran SPAM was held to be superior, commanding premium 
>prices.  This coopted Sharushiid into the ruling SPAM consortium.
>5.  We can thus also see that the Solomani Rim War, with its focus on 
>the capture of Terra, was driven by the desire to control the original 
>point source of SPAM.
>
>QED. ;-)
>
>Hmmm.  Perhaps I should write up Hormel Foods as a megacorp using the 
>Universal Corporate Profile from _101 Corporations_....

The canned chili is okay too, I usually lay a couple of slices of processed
cheese food product on top when I microsave it. 

(Across cyberspace, someone asks himself: What about processed cheese food
products in the Third Imperium?)


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 07:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 06:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
Message-ID: <200208051354.MCT02502@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leslie Bates says
>What about processed cheese food
>products in the Third Imperium?)

This is along the lines of "great cultural contributions by 
the Solomani".

Baseball
Beer
SPAM
Processed cheese product(in all its various forms)
Artificial butter flavored topping
French fries
Sliced bread
Microwave oven
Burrito
"Sports" drink (including canned sweat)
Pop music
"Shtick" (I'm sorry, I can't see a Vilani stand-up comic)

________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 08:11:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Aug  5 07:11:41 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D03@USCHM203>

Message: 2
From: sneadj@mindspring.com
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 22:16:45 -0700
>John Snead wrote:

>ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>) wrote:

>> "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> writes:
>> > 
>> > Personally, I find it hard to shed many tears for Hiroshima,
>> > Nagasaki, or Dresden.
>> 
>> I dunno--the firebombing of Dresden is IMHO one of the worst war
>> crimes committed by the US.  Esp. the bit about destroying emergency
>> vehicles...
>> 
>> That no-one was ever strung up for it is a travesty.  We're supposed
>> to be better than that.

>Agreed.  Hiroshima and Nagasaki can at least be argued as being 
>better than the alternatives (although I've heard several different 
>PoVs about how exactly necessary bombing Nagasaki was).  
>However, Dresden is an amazingly clear cut case.  It was an act of 
>terror and vengeance easily as bad as anything the other side did 
>in it's bombing of civilian targets.

You're both right, and I'm not proud of how I feel about it. It's nothing
personal against Germans as a people. My best friend's parents are from
Germany, and both his grandfathers served in the Wehrmacht. I've played
soccer for several German-American teams, and took 6 years of German
language in HS.
It's just that, knowing the barbarism committed by that regime, and having
seen more than a few older folks around town with faded tattoes on their
forearms, I sometimes think the bomb should have been dropped on Berlin or
Hamburg(yes, I know the war in Europe ended before that was possible).
As atrociously as the Japanese behaved, they never committed organized and
institutionalized genocide.
Regardless, as was said, in hindsight, and in the long run, it was probably
the wrong thing to do, and yes, we are supposed to be better than that. 
I honestly think that most of the time we are.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 08:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 07:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <200208051427.MCU00107@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Hurrel, Brian" says
<snip about how humans should be better to humans>

Yes, that's a nice sentiment.  But at what point do humans 
apply this to other sophonts?

I've read a pretty persuasive argument by Charles Pellegrino 
that outlines every reason why we should, even in the absence 
of direct contact, assume that a starfaring species, a 
species capable of manipulating the energies necessary to 
span stellar distances, is a direct apocalyptic threat to our 
existence, and that other species must make this same 
assumption about us.  The penalty for not making this 
assumption and being wrong is annihilation of your own 
species.  Even if there's a 1 in 10,000 chance you're wrong 
about the alien species' peaceful intentions, and they turn 
out to be hostile, being wrong means your species ceases to 
exist.

A ship making an interstellar crossing to our system near the 
speed of light is more of a weapon than all of our 
thermonuclear arsenal put together. (sorry - this isn't 
intended to bring up near-c rocks!).  So, are those ships we 
see coming (their antimatter rocket drive emissions will be 
quite distinctive) at near-c, are they peaceful emissaries, 
or weapons on the way.

And if we develop such rockets ourselves, and we know that it 
took us only 200 years from the advent of radio to the 
invention of the antimatter beamed-core rocket, what would we 
make of radio signals we detect from systems 20 or so light 
years away?  May we assume that the countdown has begun?

Humans have a built-in cultural inhibition against 
intraspecies murder - or else murder would be more common.  
But make it an alien species, and we won't have that 
inhibition by nature.  Any inhibition we have will come from 
intellect and not instinct.  And any restraint we have will 
be easy, perilously easy, to lose.  It will be difficult not 
to fear them by instinct.

We kill plenty of dolphins, if only by accident, and few 
humans see that as a tragic killing of a sophont.  We 
certainly don't generally see the killing of non-human 
possible sophonts as the same type of killing as a "homicide".
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 09:06:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Aug  5 08:06:42 2002
Subject: [TML] 40-year olds
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D06@USCHM203>

>From: Tod Glenn wrote:

>>> Why does the Army do this?  Because 40 year olds, as a
>>> whole, have sufficient problems that the Army knows it will
>>> lose more in attempting to incorporate them than it will
>>> gain.
>> 
>> No, no, no.  The reason the Army won't enlist you is because
>> the "useful lifetime" of the older soldier is shorter.
> 
> Well, now you are citing "the needs of the service" rather than the right
to
> serve.  I think the needs of the service should be consistently foremost.

>It should be noted that the same types of restrictions apply to other
>Federal service.  For example, you cannot apply to any federal law
>enforcement agency unless you will have enough years of service for
>retirement by age 55.  Meaning that after age 35, your too old to be an
FBI,
>DEA or ATF agent.

Unless you already have time in. If you served 4 years in the Navy(or any
service) when you were younger, you could actually join up to age 39 to have
your 20 years before 55.
I was casually looking into joining the NJ Air National Guard (because the
Corps sure as s*** isn't going to take my sorry out of shape butt back at
this age, and because I'm married, a father, and don't feel like running
around swamps anymore). I thought I would be automatically disqualified
after age 35, but my previous time in counts, so I actually have some leeway
should I decide to join.
The nice thing is I woudn't have to go to boot camp. The not-so-nice thing
is the ANG doesn't have dress blues.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 09:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Mon Aug  5 08:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: meduim navies
Message-ID: <3D4E984B.99EF2E24@mail.cswnet.com>

David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson writes:
>No, no, no, _Marc_ is receiving income from sending out _his_ >collected CT shards - Oh! I see what you meant.

Right. Shionthy [imtu] is one of those rare exceptions where the 3I gets
income from a red zone. Instead of getting its 30% in credits, it gets
the equivalent amount in CT-Shards. Note that this does not mean that
the Imperuim does not buy CT-Shards; they'll snatch everyone they can
get there hands on. But the planetary payment that Shionthy makes as a
member of the Imperuim [imtu] should be in CT-Shards.

Course thats all imtu and not landgrab...

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 09:28:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Aug  5 08:28:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Movies
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D08@USCHM203>

Regarding "accuracy" or "worthiness" of SF book to movie translations,
unless a group of die-hard fans can come up with the millions of dollars
neccessary to produce even the simplest sci-fi film, our choices are, for
the most part, going to be between "Paul Verhoeven's Starship Troopers" and
"No Starship Troopers".

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 10:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 09:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] places to get plots for adventures
Message-ID: <200208051614.MCX05321@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

just watching "Wait Until Dark".  incredibly good hook to get 
a traveller party into deep trouble
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 10:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 09:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
Message-ID: <200208051642.JAA31293@molly.iii.com>

David Shayne <daveshayne@ameritech.net> writes:
> 
>> Any clues?
>
>I couldn't find that info in any TNE source. There are charts for that
>in "World Builder's Handbook" for MT. Assuming for the moment that you
>don't have access to that very worthwhile publication I can give you
>some typical figures from that source.
>
>Smallest SGG radius = 20
>Average SGG radius ~= 60
>Highest SGG radius = 100
>
>Smallest LGG radius = 110
>Average LGG radius ~= 175
>Highest LGG radius = 240

Applying a realism check here, Jupiter, at size 88, is about the limit
for any sort of gas giant (assuming TNE size is in thousands of miles,
like CT size).
>
>Lowest GG density = .1
>Average GG density ~= .21
>Highest GG density = .3

Assuming that's g/cc, that's horribly wrong. Saturn has a density of 0.69
and is probably near the low end of possible densities; all of the other
gas giants have densities between 1 and 2.  A large gas giant, at 4x
jupiter mass and about the same diameter, would be as dense as the earth.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 10:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 09:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <20020805165054.0EF364501@mo120usjc.palm.net>

Alan Bradley <abradley1@bigpond.com> wrote:
>> From: Mark 
>> It will be the wackos waiting for the world to end who demand that 100% of 
>> all needed foodstuffs be grown locally. 
>> Everybody sane knows that tons of fresh food arrive every week... 
>> Ya, that algae is good for you, but it tastes funny and turns everything 
>> green! 
>First: why are you talking about algae? Algae is for fish. 

Spirulina. A type of blue-green algae which is very cheap to grow, is 70% protein, has required amino acids, and a wide range of required vitamins & minerals.  You can easily process it to a flour subsitute.  And o can feed it to the fish in your fish farms.
Very hard to beat in bang for buck catagory.

>Secondly, you can probably produce _more_ food than you need, and at least 
>some of your "agricultural land" is likely to be used as recreational areas, 
>as a reserve of biomass, and as supplementary life support. 

Yes, on  well run, well designed system.  How many, out on the fringes, are optimzed for profit, instead of safety or even comfort?
> 
>Otherwise your life support systems lack redundancy. 

----------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere. 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 11:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 10:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes
Message-ID: <200208051705.KAA00273@molly.iii.com>

hal@buffnet.net writes:

>Hello Folks,
>  Just a question of sorts...
>
>In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head tax" or does it charge
>an income tax on its citizens for its Imperial Budget requirements?  In
>short, if the Imperial government taxes 10% of a Gross Planetary Product,
>then it would in essence be an income tax.  If it charges a flat 500 CR
>per person on a planet, then it is a head tax.  Which is it?

It's not clear if either one is the case.  We really have only two bits of
canon to go from:

In Striker, the implication is that the imperial military tax is simply 1/3
of the planet's total military expenditure (with another 1/3 going to the
subsector fleet, so the world only keeps 1/3 for personal forces).  This
would be some sort of production tax (and, conveniently for those who want
to keep fleet sizes down, gives most planets a reason to restrict their 
military expenditures).

Our other canonical information is the 2% imperial stake in megacorps.  If
we extend this to other interstellar corporations, it's basically a 2% 
corporate income tax.

The depiction of the strength of the Imperial government is a bit 
inconsistent in Traveller materials, but all canon requires we maintain 
is the imperial military (covered by the military tax above), the scouts,
and the starports; starports would mostly pay for themselves with fees,
and might be central points for collecting the Imperium's 2% share.  In
any case, the 2% tax on interstellar corporations is probably sufficient
to pay for most of the known remaining Imperial expenditures.

Beyond this, the Imperium probably has some right to require worlds to
provide certain classes of service, which is indirectly a tax but would be
pretty much at the discretion of the local duke.

>And I find it an interesting thought here.  If the Imperium charges say,
>3% of a planet's gross planetary product for its military taxes - this tax
>is on top of the local ruler's/government's tax.  How much in the way of
>taxes can a population take before its economy begins to stagnate?

Well, that depends on how the taxes are spent; as long as the taxes are
spent locally in an efficient manner it isn't necessarily crippling to
have very high tax rates; under some circumstances (typically infrastructure)
a government can spend money more efficiently than private industry.  The
main thing that's crippling is spending tax money on things that don't grow
the economy, such as the military, though you want to keep tax rates modest
to give people a reason to work.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 11:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 10:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Sensors - too sensitive?
Message-ID: <200208051724.KAA01911@molly.iii.com>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:

>Was just reading a news blurb about a new radio telescope at 
>Green Bank.  They had some problems with local interference, 
>namely a dog's heating pad.  The pad would intermittently 
>give off bursts of radio noise.
>
>Given the tendency to want to put sensor suites on our ships 
>that can pick out the static on a party balloon at 10 million 
>kilometers, I'm wondering if there's a real limit that won't 
>be overcome by fancy algorithms or software.  If you're on 
>the surface of the Imperial Capital, and using your short 
>range communicator, and I'm trying to find you amidst the 
>cacophony of billions of similar users in an ultramodern EM 
>noisy environment, do I really stand a chance even if I'm 
>using the sensor array on a Tigress class fun machine?

Depends on your assumptions about the capability of Traveller computers;
I suspect that a lot of the Traveller sensor arrays would have problems
with being swamped with data.  Short answer is, you can probably find the
communicator if you know where to look, but if you're doing a general scan
the Tigress' noise reduction software will probably delete said 
communication as probable noise long before any human sees it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 11:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 10:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
Message-ID: <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:

>David P. Summers wrote:
>> Missiles are very damaging.  However, they also can be intercepted.
>> The utility of missiles depends on how many missiles you have vs how
>> much point defense you foe has.
>
>Yes, I'd noticed that too.  In particular, the existing missiles and
>launchers can be greatly upgraded to achieve much better results
>against point defense for rather little cost.

Of course, point defense can be greatly upgraded with fairly little 
effort to achieve much better results against missiles, so the point
may be moot.  If nothing else, a short range countermissile capable 
of taking out an incoming missile is probably less than 10% of the 
weight and cost of the incoming missile.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 12:05:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Mon Aug  5 11:05:12 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
In-Reply-To: <200208051354.MCT02502@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020805130540.00a575f0@minn.net>

At 09:54 AM 8/5/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>Leslie Bates says
>>What about processed cheese food
>>products in the Third Imperium?)

One of my landladies (the one I based the character of Dana Wolfsburg on)
flippantly said that she thought "cheese food" was something that should be
consumed by cheese beings, and that somewhere there should be a planet of
the sentient cheeses.

>This is along the lines of "great cultural contributions by 
>the Solomani".
>
>Baseball
>Beer

Pizza!

>SPAM
>Processed cheese product(in all its various forms)
>Artificial butter flavored topping
>French fries
>Sliced bread

Chocolate Chip ice cream!

>Microwave oven
>Burrito
>"Sports" drink (including canned sweat)
>Pop music
>"Shtick" (I'm sorry, I can't see a Vilani stand-up comic)

I tried to envision a Vilani Stand up comic, he was a member of the
comedian caste who would stand on the stage and recite the numbers of each
of the jokes. This of course leads to the Terrans having a practically
unassailable advantage in the field of joke warfare. (Although some Vilani
confessed to being baffled by Monty Python's Undertaker Sketch.)


Les
==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 12:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Aug  5 11:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] dangerous children
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020730204623.00a5e300@minn.net>
References: <5hbeku4e63psd36ctqa7c96oubp4h39kg7@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <3D4EDD10.12761.2F9903@localhost>

On 30 Jul 2002, at 20:46, Leslie Bates wrote:
> In 101 Corporations, page 28:
> 
> 	"Little is known about the inner workings of the Famille', although the
> dark rumours of inbreeding with eugenic intent, rampant substance abuse,
> and child labour are so prevalent they may be at least partly true (and the
> High Energy and Starship Weapons Divisions are both led by children of
> dubious stability).

"This is getting out of hand. Now there are two of them."

"We should never have made this bargain."

(I still haven't got 101 Corps, but will in a few weeks...)

/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 12:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Scott Ayres)
Date: Mon Aug  5 11:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] 40-year olds
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D06@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <20020805182204.21845.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> wrote:
> >From: Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> >>> Why does the Army do this?  Because 40 year
> olds, as a...  [snip]

> "Unless you already have time in. If you served 4
years in the Navy(or any service) when you were
younger, you could actually join up to age 39 to have
your 20 years before 55. I was casually looking into
joining the NJ Air National Guard (because the Corps
sure as s*** isn't going to take my sorry out of shape
butt back at this age, and because I'm married, a
father, and don't feel like running around swamps
anymore). I thought I would be automatically
disqualified  after age 35, but my previous time in
counts, so I actually have some leeway should I decide
to join.  The nice thing is I woudn't have to go to
boot camp.  The not-so-nice thing is the ANG doesn't
have dress blues."


Supply & Demand.  That's all it is.  In my class for
Army helicopter school, we had a 39-yr 2LT w/ 2-yrs of
prior service (18 yrs before as an E-3): the Army
needed pilots.  Later, I saw an USAF pilot trainee w/o
a spleen: the USAF needed pilots.  FWIW, the USAF (&
ANG) do have "dress blues" as well as the Army, but
they're nowhere near as pretty as the USMC's.  IMO,
the AF blues look more like a cocktail party ensemble.

In my experience, many things are waiverable.  Not
all, but many.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 12:31:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Mon Aug  5 11:31:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Aircraft carrier displacement
In-Reply-To: <200208051705.KAA00273@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <20020805183051.18082.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>

 Would anyone here know how many displacement tons a
U.S. aircraft carrier like the "Enterprise" would be?
Needing to get a visualization in my head for an
interplanetary structure in my game. 
Any help is appreciated.
thanks.


=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 13:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Aug  5 12:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Aircraft carrier displacement
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D0D@USCHM203>

 Daniel Tackett wrote:

> Would anyone here know how many displacement tons a
>U.S. aircraft carrier like the "Enterprise" would be?
>Needing to get a visualization in my head for an
>interplanetary structure in my game. 
>Any help is appreciated.
>thanks.

About 18,000 tons

Check out Ken Pick's excellent essay on Traveller starship tonnage. It's on
the Freelance Traveller website, I believe.

Basically:

	5 tons gross ship displacement(in today's nautical terms)=1
displacement ton in Traveller.

These are approximate, and there are some fairly complicated variables, but
this is a good rule of thumb.

The essay also lists some typical ships and their Traveller tonnage:

Destroyer USS Cole (TL9): 8400 tons full-load = approx 1700 Tons Traveller 
Carrier USS Enterprise (TL7): 75000 tons std, 90000 full-load = approx.
18000 Tons Traveller 
Light Carrier HMS Invincible (TL8): 16000 tons std, 20000 full-load =
approx. 4000 Tons Traveller 
Carrier USS Nimitz (TL8-9): 80000 tons std, 92000 full-load = approx. 18000
Tons Traveller 
(Moderately-armored) 
Battlecruiser HMS Hood (TL5): 42000 tons std, 45000 full-load = approx. 7500
Tons Traveller 
Typical "Treaty Cruiser" (TL5-6): 10000 tons std, 13000 full-load = approx.
2000 Tons Traveller 
Armored Cruiser KMS Graf Spee (TL6): 12000 tons std, 16000full-load =
approx. 2600 Tons Traveller 
Battlecruiser KMS Scharnhorst (TL6): 32000 tons std, 38000 full-load =
approx. 6300 Tons Traveller 
Carrier HMS Ark Royal (TL6): 22000 tons std, 28000 full-load = approx. 4500
Tons Traveller 
Carrier USS Enterprise (TL6): 20000 tons std, 26000 full-load = approx. 4300
Tons Traveller 
(Heavily-armored) 
Battleship USS Oregon (TL4): 10000 tons std, 12000 full-load = approx. 1700
Tons Traveller 
Battleship HMS Majestic (TL4): 15000 tons std, 16000 full-load = approx.
2300 Tons Traveller 
Battleship HMS Dreadnaught (TL5): 18000 tons std, 22000 full-load = approx.
3000 Tons Traveller 
Battleship USS Arizona (TL5): 25000 tons std, 33000 full-load = approx. 5000
Tons Traveller 
Battleship KMS Bismarck (TL6): 42000 tons std, 50000 full-load = approx.
7000 Tons Traveller 
Battleship USS New Jersey (TL6): 45000 tons std, 58000 full-load = approx.
8000 Tons Traveller 
Battleship HIJMS Yamato (TL6): 60000 tons std, 72000 full-load = approx.
10000 Tons Traveller 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 13:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 12:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The cloak
Message-ID: <20020805193223.638E04510@mo120usjc.palm.net>

The favorite obsuring garment of the ages.  From knights hiding their armor & swords to Kent Allard striking terror in the hearts of evil doers...it has been part of popular fiction.

How common are they in your Traveller universe?


----------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
IHTFP - FNORD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 13:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Mon Aug  5 12:35:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Aircraft carrier displacement
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D0D@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <20020805193342.51708.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com>

Thank you very much. This is a big help. Thank you
also for all the additional information as well.
Some surprizing numbers.






> Check out Ken Pick's excellent essay on Traveller
> starship tonnage. It's on
> the Freelance Traveller website, I believe.
> 
> Basically:
> 
> 	5 tons gross ship displacement(in today's nautical
> terms)=1
> displacement ton in Traveller.
> 
> These are approximate, and there are some fairly
> complicated variables, but
> this is a good rule of thumb.
> 
> The essay also lists some typical ships and their
> Traveller tonnage:
> 
> Destroyer USS Cole (TL9): 8400 tons full-load =
> approx 1700 Tons Traveller 
> Carrier USS Enterprise (TL7): 75000 tons std, 90000
> full-load = approx.
> 18000 Tons Traveller 
> Light Carrier HMS Invincible (TL8): 16000 tons std,
> 20000 full-load =
> approx. 4000 Tons Traveller 
> Carrier USS Nimitz (TL8-9): 80000 tons std, 92000
> full-load = approx. 18000
> Tons Traveller 
> (Moderately-armored) 
> Battlecruiser HMS Hood (TL5): 42000 tons std, 45000
> full-load = approx. 7500
> Tons Traveller 
> Typical "Treaty Cruiser" (TL5-6): 10000 tons std,
> 13000 full-load = approx.
> 2000 Tons Traveller 
> Armored Cruiser KMS Graf Spee (TL6): 12000 tons std,
> 16000full-load =
> approx. 2600 Tons Traveller 
> Battlecruiser KMS Scharnhorst (TL6): 32000 tons std,
> 38000 full-load =
> approx. 6300 Tons Traveller 
> Carrier HMS Ark Royal (TL6): 22000 tons std, 28000
> full-load = approx. 4500
> Tons Traveller 
> Carrier USS Enterprise (TL6): 20000 tons std, 26000
> full-load = approx. 4300
> Tons Traveller 
> (Heavily-armored) 
> Battleship USS Oregon (TL4): 10000 tons std, 12000
> full-load = approx. 1700
> Tons Traveller 
> Battleship HMS Majestic (TL4): 15000 tons std, 16000
> full-load = approx.
> 2300 Tons Traveller 
> Battleship HMS Dreadnaught (TL5): 18000 tons std,
> 22000 full-load = approx.
> 3000 Tons Traveller 
> Battleship USS Arizona (TL5): 25000 tons std, 33000
> full-load = approx. 5000
> Tons Traveller 
> Battleship KMS Bismarck (TL6): 42000 tons std, 50000
> full-load = approx.
> 7000 Tons Traveller 
> Battleship USS New Jersey (TL6): 45000 tons std,
> 58000 full-load = approx.
> 8000 Tons Traveller 
> Battleship HIJMS Yamato (TL6): 60000 tons std, 72000
> full-load = approx.
> 10000 Tons Traveller 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 13:46:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 12:46:14 2002
Subject: [TML] The cloak
Message-ID: <200208051944.MDF01639@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Mark Urbin" asks
>How common are they in your Traveller universe?

Fairly common.  I happen to own one in RL (dark brown) that 
is fairly short (just past the waist).

Hate to say it, though, it doesn't blend in in RL.  For that, 
in cooler weather, I have a black London Fog trenchcoat. 
Short military haircut, black suit, black trenchcoat, black 
gloves.  Non-descript four-door dark blue car (Crown Vic, 
Taurus, or Intrepid - the Muldermobile or similar).

Want to have fun?  Just go to the park where Vince Foster 
killed himself, get out of the car, and walk around.  
Especially if there are two of you - the local spring/fall 
picnic crowd will scatter like quail when they see you (the 
first time I did this, it was an accident - now it's just 
entertainment).

You won't have to say a thing, or impersonate anyone.  People 
will run.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 13:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Strain)
Date: Mon Aug  5 12:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020805020920.12005.8746.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <009601c23cba$8a780420$64a85940@dixienet.com>

I do believe a challenge has been accepted.

We have an opponent, and a GM. Do we have others?

missingjn@dixie-net.com 


-------------------------------------> From: Flykiller@aol.com
> Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 19:56:53 EDT
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>>Think you can handle that?
> Yes, I'd love to.
> 

DATA from Mr Roseberry's post:    [TML] Re: meduim navies

> 
> Initial Fleets for Lunion, Lanth, and Regina subsectors using
> "meduim navies".
> 
> Initial Fleets, Lunion subsector
> 
> Imperial Navy MCr 2,835,544.748
> 
> Wardn. MCr 55
> Smoug MCr 14700
> Adabicci MCr 322,000
> Zaibon MCr 148.75
> Spirelle MCr 312,375
> Derchon MCr 36,225
> Lunion MCr 3,080,000
> Shirine MCr 252
> Harvoset MCr 14175
> Perisephone MCr 28350
> Capon MCr 17,850
> Strouden MCr 3,465,000
> 
> This is peace time budget x10, using "meduim navies".
> Note: I'm using supp3 to start, so Wardn is independent.
> 
> Initial Fleets, Lanth subsector
> 
> Imperial Navy MCr 68668.554
> 
> Extolay MCr 40250
> Lanth MCr 220.5
> Dinom MCr 63
> Ghandi MCr 9.98
> Wypoc MCr 267.75
> Quopist MCr 1592.5
> Treece MCr 105,000
> Ivendo MCr 332.5
> Tureded MCr 178.5
> Equus MCr 66500
> Rhise MCr 31.85
> Icetina MCr 126
> Cogri MCr 1785
> Skull MCr 12600
> 
> This is peace time budget x10, using "meduim navies".
> 
> Initial Fleets, Regina subsector
> 
> Imperial Navy MCr 3,957,399.439
> 
> Efate MCr 3,220,000
> Alell MCr 241,500
> Yres MCr 13650
> Menorb MCr 603,750
> Uakye MCr 120.75
> Boughne MCr 189
> Hefry MCr 10.5
> Ruie. MCr 9,100,000
> Jenghe MCr 1365
> Regina MCr 422,625
> Feri MCr 409,500
> Roup MCr 1,260,000
> Yori MCr 23275
> Dentus MCr 157.5
> Wochiers MCr 294,000
> Yorbund MCr 35
> Moughas MCr 308
> Rethe MCr 6,300,000
> Inthe MCr 18200
> Shionthy MCr 20825
> 
> This is peace time budget x10, using "meduim navies".
> 
> Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches
> 








From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 14:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 13:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] vilis landgrab
Message-ID: <200208052005.MDF03952@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mark Urbin is handling Garda-Vilis.  However, I'm looking at 
systems that will probably be trading/communicating with 
Vilis, and I see 

Vilis       Kwon grabs this
Garda-Vilis Urbin grabs this

Choleosti
Arkadia
Stellatio
Frenzie

There seem to be plenty of TNS entries about some of these 
systems, especially during the FFW.  Let me finish Vilis, and 
I'm probably going to branch out over the other four in the 
list.  Unless someone else has done them...
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 14:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Mon Aug  5 13:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] dangerous children
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15DA@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Are you referring to Winnie?  Or is there <shudder> another Spofulam child out there that I'm unaware of?
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: Leslie Bates [mailto:lesbates@minn.net]
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 6:46 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] dangerous children


JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 30 Jul 2002 12:50:01 -0500, Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net>

>>Oh, by the way, was anyone aware that Ditzie has a twin sister? <big evil
>>grin>
>
>A twin sister?  Who survived?

In 101 Corporations, page 28:

	"Little is known about the inner workings of the Famille', although the
dark rumours of inbreeding with eugenic intent, rampant substance abuse,
and child labour are so prevalent they may be at least partly true (and the
High Energy and Starship Weapons Divisions are both led by children of
dubious stability).



==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 14:20:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Mon Aug  5 13:20:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Landgrab claim: Asmodeus/Querion
References: <3D4C1132.3C2572D6@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <001e01c23cbd$c1f77220$1700a8c0@imogen>

I'd like to claim Asmodeus/Querion.

Okay, I know I haven't finished Efate/Regina yet but I do have  a
lot written for  Efate  already  ...  so  I'll  be  posting  that
soon-ish.  Its just that I've  been  looking  for  a  good  Skaro
look-alike and I think Asmodeus would fit nicely (nuke war  ended
in 1005)!

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 14:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Mon Aug  5 13:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Aircraft carrier displacement
In-Reply-To: <20020805183051.18082.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <200208051705.KAA00273@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020805152430.00a5b340@minn.net>

Daniel Tackett <haegen2001@yahoo.com>
 wrote:
> Would anyone here know how many displacement tons a
>U.S. aircraft carrier like the "Enterprise" would be?
>Needing to get a visualization in my head for an
>interplanetary structure in my game. 
>Any help is appreciated.
>thanks.

>From Jane's Pocket Book of Major Warships (1973):

U.S.S. Enterprise

75,700 Standard

89,600 Full Load

Hope this helps.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 14:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Mon Aug  5 13:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] dangerous children
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15DA@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020805152802.00a5e9f0@minn.net>

"DeGraff, Jesse" <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> wrote:

>Are you referring to Winnie?  Or is there <shudder> another Spofulam child
out there that I'm unaware of?
>Jesse

>>On Tue, 30 Jul 2002 12:50:01 -0500, Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net>
>
>>>Oh, by the way, was anyone aware that Ditzie has a twin sister? <big evil
>>>grin>

I haven't heard of Winnie.

I only made a Piperesque mention of the twin in Part Three of FiHP.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 14:30:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Aug  5 13:30:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Landgrab
In-Reply-To: <001e01c23cbd$c1f77220$1700a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <B9742E4B.68481%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

For al of you who have posted your landgrabs to the web, please check
http://spinwardmarches.com to see if you are linked.  If not, please drop m=
e
an email with the URL.

Thanks, Tod

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 14:32:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Mon Aug  5 13:32:09 2002
Subject: [TML] dangerous children
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15DB@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Winnie's in the "Famille Spofulam Winter 97" catalog .pdf available at the BITS site.  She's also been mentioned at least one other time that know of in the Type J Racing Yacht design posted to the TML by Ian.

Jesse
Haven't read Piper ;)


-----Original Message-----
From: Leslie Bates [mailto:lesbates@minn.net]
Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 1:28 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] dangerous children


"DeGraff, Jesse" <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> wrote:

>Are you referring to Winnie?  Or is there <shudder> another Spofulam child
out there that I'm unaware of?
>Jesse

>>On Tue, 30 Jul 2002 12:50:01 -0500, Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net>
>
>>>Oh, by the way, was anyone aware that Ditzie has a twin sister? <big evil
>>>grin>

I haven't heard of Winnie.

I only made a Piperesque mention of the twin in Part Three of FiHP.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
Message-ID: <200208052113.g75LD2w04199@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
>Subject: RE: [TML] Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"

  FWIW, a rider BatRon is 93+% riders to ~7% fighter
tonnage. Their role? (SMC, pps. 35-6)

  "Fighter Division: ... Fighters are used for long range
patrols and recon within a system, allows (sic) the carrier
advanced warning of enemy ... In addition, the fighters are
expected to hold the screen against enemy vessels until the
Riders are ready to begin* a battle".

  *they may not bother practicing much for the role "screen 
against enemy vessels until the surviving Riders are aboard
the tender/carrier and ready to Jump", as _those_ fighters 
will have executed their last mission :|

  Steven Hudson

...
>It is canon, Traveller has whopping big fleet carriers (not to mention the
>Tigress class BBs) which carry huge number of fighters.
>
>The imperium obviously believes they have a need for large numbers of
>fighters. AFAIK carrier squadrons are equated with cruiser squadrons (see
>Fighting Ships) and presumably carry out some of the same missions. Commerce
>raiding is possible but would you need a fleet carrier for that?
>
>So given that carrier squadrons exist if they are totally useless against
>other cruiser squadrons what would they be used for. I submit it could also
>mean that point defence systems are not as good as the navy would have us
>believe.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:23:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:23:22 2002
Subject: [TML] nuclear detonations in vaccuum
In-Reply-To: <152.119d95a9.2a7787fd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20805.135712.9K3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>  >>I'd like to see a discussion of nuclear weapons effects in a 
>  >>vaccuum.  since there's no blast then it seems to me that 
>  >>ablative or reflec for heat, and simple armor for radiation, 
>  >>should adequately deal with all but very close detonations.  
>  >>I wonder how much neutron irradiation it would take to 
>  >>embrittle a hull ....
>  >>
>  > 
>  >It's mostly "soft" x-rays.  Not thermal radiation.  You get 
>  >conversion to infrared only in an atmosphere (the nitrogen in 
>  >the air absorbs the x-rays, becoming the "fireball" and re-
>  >radiating at lower wavelengths.  During the Spartan ABM 
>  >design work, they found that x-rays couple much more 
>  >effectively with a metal bodied craft than the infrared does -
>  >the damage penetrates much deeper into the warhead.
>
> and what exactly is the nature of that damage?  did they do testing on any 
> kind of armor?  does enough radiation penetrate "regardless of armor" to 
> cause significant interior damage or personnel casualties?  when x-rays 
> couple with metal, does that mean the metal absorbs them?

The damage depends on *how much* energy is absorbed. Small amounts just
damage crystal structure a bit. Larger amounts cause heating. the
amounts from a *close* detonation deposit so much energy that the
material (metal, rock, water, air, whatever) flashes into plasma
*explosively*). 

The air absorbing x-rays and converting to a high energy plasma is what
cause the shock wave and thermal flash from a nuke inside an
atmosphere. 

Metal just absorbs more of the x-rays in a shorter distance. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:24:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:24:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
In-Reply-To: <20020730203333.87379.qmail@web20419.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20805.140900.3G8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>
>>1 5-gallon bucket, a bag of cement, some water and mixing time and a
>
>>rowboat have served wiseguys well for many decades now.
>>
>>All it requires is one East River.
>
> Weighted bodies dropped into water turn up with alarming frequency --
> alarming especially to the wiseguys who are trying to keep the body
> from being found.  We just had several turn up in a reservoir in
> California not long ago -- I guess it was last year.  This does
> remain a fair solution at all tech levels ("Og, you tie stone to foot
> of dead guy with vine.  I make raft."), but is not quite as sure as
> I'd like.  

There are a number of moderately simple ways that are "good enough"
*if* you don't expect anyone to come looking for the person. 

In that case, you can just use a bathtub, sharp knife and a meat
grinder. Flush away the evidence. Grinding up the bones is a *pain*,
but doable.

Use lots of bleach in the tub, and the toilet and try not to splash,
just in case.

If you've got an isolated area, and access to liquid nitrogen you can
produce liquid oxygen, and use that to cremate the body. 

In a pure oxygen atmosphere, even fresh meat and bone will burn quite
well. with LOX, you'll have to be careful not to cause an explosion.

Industrial strength hydrogen peroxide tends to dissolve flesh, but also
tends to explode on contact with things like blood.

Oh yeah. Time is an important factor. If there's no rush, you can do a
much better job, with far less mess.

Doh!

I wonder how well a body exposed to LN2 or LH2 would shatter when
struck? That'd be one way to reduce the body to a nice powder (or
"slush" after it thaws) for easy disposal. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:26:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:26:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
In-Reply-To: <200207311718.LTT06680@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20805.142332.0S0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> WriteFool says
>>From the standpoint of pure economic and management 
>>efficiency I would have to agree, but on the other hand by 
>>creating the traditions and institutional memory of never 
>>giving up on a case and instilling that in to each 
>>generation of policefolk, it might help foster a certain 
>>determination as well as giving some comfort to victims' 
>>families that everything can and will be done and 
>>their losses and justice will not be forgotten.
>
> I would imagine that such perseverance, or lack thereof, 
> varies from planet to planet across the Imperium.  While they 
> might do things like this on, say, Regina, who can say how 
> they run things - even at the Imperial capital.
>
> In Washington, D.C., the homicide department is in complete 
> shambles.  I sometimes wonder if the powers that be intend 
> for it to be so.  Cases are lost, forgotten, misplaced...
>
> And the coroner's office is a complete joke.  It's a sore 
> point for the residents, but nothing, I repeat, nothing has 
> been done to remedy the situation.  

Of course not. The residents can't vote. 

Or did they at least get *local* elections a while back?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:28:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:28:21 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <200208052113.g75LD2w04199@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028582658.5758.ajackson@ping>

Steven Hudson writes:
> 
>   "Fighter Division: ... Fighters are used for long range
> patrols and recon within a system, allows (sic) the carrier
> advanced warning of enemy ... In addition, the fighters are
> expected to hold the screen against enemy vessels until the
> Riders are ready to begin* a battle".

Two problems:

1)  In space, it tends to be easier to simply tack a great big sensor on the
main ship.
2)  The fighters can't hold a screen if the capital ships can just ignore the
screen and charge the carriers.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPAEBKEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPAEBKEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
Message-ID: <p04330104b974a06d3f80@[198.123.22.180]>

At 5:30 PM +0800 8/5/02, Antony Farrell wrote:
>It is canon, Traveller has whopping big fleet carriers (not to mention the
>Tigress class BBs) which carry huge number of fighters.
>
>The imperium obviously believes they have a need for large numbers of
>fighters. AFAIK carrier squadrons are equated with cruiser squadrons (see
>Fighting Ships) and presumably carry out some of the same missions. Commerce
>raiding is possible but would you need a fleet carrier for that?


Fighters are useful for point defense, but they have other uses.  One 
is tracking down smaller targets and ground support.  (Sure a meson 
gun makes a big "boom", but if you want to stop dozen or hundreds of 
little scattered ships or if you want to support troops on the 
ground, then fighters become a lot more useful).  Another is sensor 
pickets (esp if allow them to set up a sensor net to form one big 
array).  There was at least one more use I've forgotten....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805084630.018ca4e0@192.168.0.1>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804192145.024cac00@192.168.0.1> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020804192145.024cac00@192.168.0.1> <20020805191412.A25687@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020805084630.018ca4e0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020806074241.A27684@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> Kwai Ching is an interesting example.  They really have no choice
> but to produce the majority, if not all of their food.

That's true for basically *all* vacuum worlds with more than a few
million people.  As I said, Kwai Ching is *above* the median trade
level per capita.


> They are not part of an established trading federation, and their imports 
> are spotty at best due to ethically challenged merchant activity.
> (that's according to GT: Behind the Claw, and the example Tim is using.)

I'm not using BTC at all -- I'm using the trade rules in Far Trader.

Most plaets have *less* ability to trade for food.


> To produce a variety of food that would keep a large population
> happy requires a large amount of space, water and energy.

That's true regardless of whether the world has air or not.


> If you have bulk traders making a regular run through the system,
> and there is an Agricultural planet on their loop, the rockball can
> get a wide variety of foodstuffs without the large markup.

Try running the numbers to see if it works.  You might be surprised.
Don't underestimate how much it costs to ship food for a few billion
people.


> If it's not economically viable to produce 100% of the food locally,
> why should they do it?

That's the whole point -- it *is* economically viable to produce 100%
of the food locally.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1028582658.5758.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1028582658.5758.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <p04330105b974a1517539@[198.123.22.180]>

At 2:24 PM -0700 8/5/02, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Steven Hudson writes:
>>
>>    "Fighter Division: ... Fighters are used for long range
>>  patrols and recon within a system, allows (sic) the carrier
>>  advanced warning of enemy ... In addition, the fighters are
>>  expected to hold the screen against enemy vessels until the
>>  Riders are ready to begin* a battle".
>
>Two problems:
>
>1)  In space, it tends to be easier to simply tack a great big sensor on the
>main ship.

Well, that isn't in the base GT rules or in CT (or in MT, I'm not 
sure).  The proposed rules I've seen limit sensor size to ship size 
(so if you make your ship effectively bigger, then your own 
dectection is easier) but if you are going to modify the rules, then 
you should be able to allow scattered fighters to relay their data 
and set up a virtual array much bigger than any a ship can carry....

>2)  The fighters can't hold a screen if the capital ships can just ignore the
>screen and charge the carriers.


Yeah, they can serve as point defense (ie a screen against missiles)
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:56:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:56:13 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <p04330105b974a1517539@[198.123.22.180]>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028584537.113.ajackson@ping>

David P. Summers writes:

> Well, that isn't in the base GT rules or in CT (or in MT, I'm not 
> sure).

Well, neither have much in the way of larger sensors.  Still, even in GT you'll
need 25 cockpit bridges to get the sensor capabilities of one command bridge.

> Yeah, they can serve as point defense (ie a screen against missiles)

Well, true but not the normal meaning of 'screen', since that does nothing to
prevent the larger ship from getting within energy weapons range.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:57:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:57:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805090845.01831e50@192.168.0.1>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804223247.0237e008@192.168.0.1> <20020804232303.7408.33320.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <006701c23c1f$2baff600$195d8690@computer> <5.1.0.14.0.20020804223247.0237e008@192.168.0.1> <20020805202103.D25687@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020805090845.01831e50@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020806075541.B27684@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> It was determined that published trade rules didn't fit the big picture.

That may be so, but they are the official rules for the official
universe.  I agree that variant rules may give variant results.


> Large bulk traders were needed in core sectors to make it work.

They are needed under the existing rules, too.

Either way, it takes on the order of a billion dtons per year to feed
an average pop-9 world to a modern level.  That's a few million-dton
superfreighters arriving every day.  I haven't seen any canonical
sources that suggest such a level of shipping.


> I agree with you in places like the Marches, or even more frontier
> settings.

I'm basing my figures mostly on the core sectors.  If you don't like
the results, then publish your own trade rules.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
References: <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Of course, point defense can be greatly upgraded with fairly little 
> effort to achieve much better results against missiles,

It can?  When I tried, I got virtually negligible improvements.


> If nothing else, a short range countermissile capable of taking out
> an incoming missile is probably less than 10% of the weight and cost
> of the incoming missile.

You can make a countermissile a lot cheaper than the published
standard missile (yes, about 10%), but the problem is that you can
make the ship-killing missiles much cheaper and smaller as well (for
the same effectiveness).  Multiple-warhead missiles are extremely
difficult to stop in their terminal phase.

You would also have to modify the space combat rules to allow
point-defense missile fire.  Then there's the headache of missiles
with their own point defense against countermissiles :-/


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028585608.7515.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> Anthony Jackson wrote:
> > Of course, point defense can be greatly upgraded with fairly little 
> > effort to achieve much better results against missiles,
> 
> It can?  When I tried, I got virtually negligible improvements.

Sorry.  You first have to throw out the ROF modifiers in GT and use standard
GURPS rules ;)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
In-Reply-To: <3D4E5E7E.26225.7DEF71@localhost>
References: <137.122edd2d.2a7ee774@aol.com> <B972E6BF.67D85%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <3D4E5E7E.26225.7DEF71@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020806081755.D27684@freeman.little-possums.net>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> And for those who have money to burn:
> 
> TL Guidance Vol Mass AV MCr   G-Turns Warhead Hits Damage  Range Comm
> 15 Full-Ind 7   7.32 3  5.232 4/4     500ktx2 2D6  1/25-79 0     10L
[...]
> Probably way too expensive for most people, but it should ruin the day 
> of any smaller vessel that runs into a field of them.

Does this one last longer than 12 hours?  At 5 MCr a pop, it seems
like they would have to ruin a *lot* of people's days to be
worthwhile.

Not something you can just emplace by the thousands in traffic lanes
in the hope that one or two hit, and too slow to get in range if you
did.  It looks like it would only be useful in or near planetary
orbit.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:22:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:22:06 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020801093246.4c070802@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20805.143023.3i7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 04:07 PM 7/31/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>>"Glenn M. Goffin" says
>>>So, John, are you a sociopath in real life, or do you just 
>>>play one in RPGs?
>>
>>In real life, the Army saw fit to conduct a psychological 
>>evaluation, and on the commander's recommendation, I was sent 
>>to sniper school.  Later, when I became a software 
>>consultant...
>
> Hey!  They gave me a pysch eval before I was assigned to sniper school!
> Evidently, I was just sociopathic enough for their purposes...

And we love you for it. <g>

Which reminds me:

http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp08042002.html

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1028585608.7515.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1028585608.7515.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020806083856.E27684@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Sorry.  You first have to throw out the ROF modifiers in GT and use
> standard GURPS rules ;)

Ah, that makes more sense :)

Even so, have you considered the problem of loss of accuracy with
higher-RoF weapons of the same overall size?

If you allow Vehicles-designed missiles, a typical target might be a
Size -1 object closing at 300 mi/s with 12 gee maneuverability and
effective DR 600.  A missile rack would launch up to 20 of these in a
salvo.  Depending upon whether your opponent respects the Imperial
Rules of War, they may or may not have nuclear warheads.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
In-Reply-To: <20020806081755.D27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3D4E5E7E.26225.7DEF71@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D4FA627.26089.39E708@localhost>

On 6 Aug 2002 at 8:17, Timothy Little wrote:

> Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > And for those who have money to burn:
> > 
> > TL Guidance Vol Mass AV MCr   G-Turns Warhead Hits Damage  Range Comm
> > 15 Full-Ind 7   7.32 3  5.232 4/4     500ktx2 2D6  1/25-79 0     10L
> [...]
> > Probably way too expensive for most people, but it should ruin the day 
> > of any smaller vessel that runs into a field of them.
> 
> Does this one last longer than 12 hours?  At 5 MCr a pop, it seems
> like they would have to ruin a *lot* of people's days to be
> worthwhile.

No, I forgot to mention that this model can run the sensor and brain 
for 7 days.
 
> Not something you can just emplace by the thousands in traffic lanes
> in the hope that one or two hit, and too slow to get in range if you
> did.  It looks like it would only be useful in or near planetary
> orbit.

That's the real problem with mines, I guess. For more range you'd 
probably be best off just dumping lots of fully-independant missiles, 
but they won't have much endurance. The only way round this is to put a 
fusion plant in, and they're fairly big by missile standards - FF&S 
PEMS arrays use an annoying amount of power.

Perhaps a CAPTOR style sensor platform with a number of small missiles 
on board would be a workable comprimise, though it'd start getting 
expensive real quick, and it wouldn't be long before most design 
committees turned it into a small battle-station by adding point 
defence, etc. I'm sure.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:45:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:45:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Astronomy Boffin Question
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEKAIKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020805110124.358f5e36@pop.mindspring.com>

At 10:27 PM 8/4/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>How big can a rocky asteroid be and still be irregular?

At a guess, about 100 miles diameter.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:46:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:46:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEKFEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <m3y9bndi8f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020805112347.358f6ef0@pop.mindspring.com>

At 01:07 PM 8/4/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>This brings up an interesting point. Does it go the other way too? Most U.S.
>soldiers had a good month between the time they left CONUS and the time they
>hit the lines in Europe, even during the most active time of the war. Today
>soldiers in Georgia can be in a war zone in less than 48 hours. Does this
>also contribute to PTSD? How does it effect their combat readiness.

It leads to more stateside training and readiness drills.  I took part in
REFORGER 85 (REdeployment of FORces to GERmany, and exercise where troops
were airlifted to depots in Europe where vehicles and heavy gear were
waiting for us.. all we brought along was personal kit.)  In preparation
for this, we spent a great deal of time going over things like loading
drills, NBC warfare, squad tactics and the like.  There was no assumption
that we'd have time to train before entering combat.

>ObTrav: This would not be a problem for interstellar troops, since minimum
>travel time is a week. Maximum travel time could be much higher. (Which is
>why I especially have a problem with GT designs which use bunkrooms.) Could
>a really large troop transport incorporate a habitat module to use as a
>training area? It strikes me that a holoventure module might work really
>well for battledress units and vehicle drivers (tank, fighter, etc.) but
>that regular troops will need more room to practice small unit tactics,
>unless the holoventure studios work as good as ST holodecks.

The designs in Ground Forces include firing ranges and other small training
areas, but as you say, the troops could be in cramped quarters for a good
time.  Which could be an invitation for more adventures.  This was partly
inspired by a Bill Maudlin cartoon showing troops in bunks stacked four
high with no room to breath, and the First Sergeant standing there saying
"Look, th' schedule calls for calisthenics, so we're gonna start with the
left eyebrow..."

Here's a fun game to play if you have Ground Forces.  You are a Force
Lieutenant assigned to a Caen-class ship.  You are lying in your bunk, and
feeling a bit peckish.  How do you get to the officer's mess?  :)
-- 

Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.
gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html

Author of GT: Ground Forces                               

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:47:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:47:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <008901c23c6c$e2004c00$be09bd50@martinjd>
References: <20020804173620.8351.57196.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <006901c23c1f$2dd85440$195d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020805114848.35e72ae8@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:42 AM 8/5/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>>
>> Hmm. I've always wanted to run an Arbellatra vs Gustus game. Maybe I
>should
>> actually do it.
>
>You should. Then I can play

Dibs Arbellatra.  One of my favorite people in Traveller history.  Someday
I'd love to write a sourcebook for the Arbellatra Regency.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:49:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:49:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
In-Reply-To: <138.1260f901.2a7f16a9@cs.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020805115125.30d74ca4@pop.mindspring.com>

At 07:45 PM 8/4/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>Speaking of which, does anyone know where I might find a good-condition copy 
>of FTL:2448? I've looked all over the place, both online and in RL and I've 
>never been able to find anything. I've got everything else TriTac's put out 
>and I'm wanting to complete my collection.

Try putting a "wanted" message up on rec.games.frp.marketplace
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:50:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:50:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Warghame ----> Nightmare?
In-Reply-To: <194.af51b03.2a7f3c97@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020805114147.35df3ff4@pop.mindspring.com>

At 10:27 PM 8/4/2002 EDT, you wrote:
>>But seriously, the comm delay and limited intelligence turned a wargame into
>>a nightmare.
>
>Commo delays and limited intelligence are half the fun of a decent wargame. 
>I love large, multiplayer exercises -- the umpires don't have to insert the 
>"fog of war" because the players provide it themselves!

This is why part of the SALUTE intelligence report is "unit." Keeping track
of who is where is vital.  During our massive 5FW game, I was only sure of
the psotion and status of 1st Assault Fleet, which I was personnaly
commanding.  I had no idea if my other fleets were reaching their
objectives, dead, or exceeding their mission orders.  It turns out that one
of my fleets had encountered the Imperial 212th and 100th fleets and been
mauled, but the enocunter led to the Imperial side believing that the
Jewell attack was a feint, and that my main goal was Rhylanor.  Gave me a
few extra months.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
Message-ID: <200208052309.g75N9Gw20035@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
...
>>   "Fighter Division: ... Fighters are used for long range
>> patrols and recon within a system, allows (sic) the carrier
>> advanced warning of enemy ... In addition, the fighters are
>> expected to hold the screen against enemy vessels until the
>> Riders are ready to begin* a battle".
>
>Two problems:
>1)  In space, it tends to be easier to simply tack a great big sensor on the
>main ship.
>2)  The fighters can't hold a screen if the capital ships can just ignore the
>screen and charge the carriers.
  
  Understood; in both cases it's the limitation of the rules system
at work. OTOH, point one could be addressed by making the fighters
into serious endurance / high speed platforms for sustained in-
system ops, but that's getting them into gunship tonnages, and you
might as well make them Jump capable for survivability.

  As MJD indicated recently, point two can only be addressed fully
in a hex-based Trav navals game.

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:11:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:11:32 2002
Subject: [TML] The cloak
Message-ID: <memo.630916@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <200208051944.MDF01639@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
John T. Kwonjtkwon@jtkgroup.comJohn T. KwonIn article 
<200208051944.MDF01639@vmms1.verisignmail.com>, jtkwon@jtkgroup.com (John 
T. Kwon) wrote:

> "Mark Urbin" asks
> >How common are they in your Traveller universe?
> 
> Fairly common.  I happen to own one in RL (dark brown) that 
> is fairly short (just past the waist).
> 
> Hate to say it, though, it doesn't blend in in RL.  

I too wear a cloak - nice big warm brown floor-length one. It's an Arab 
desert cloak I picked up in Tunisia, actually. It is so warm I have been 
outside at 0500 in March, frost & snow on the ground, and the only cold 
bit was my nose...

But I've always been fond of cloaks, and that's only the latest in a 
succession... the first one was purchased when I was about 12.

Once walked across the local town square and heard someone laughing. 
Looked round, a fellow was pointing... but as he had a full Mohican, dyed 
pale blue, I'm not quite sure why he wanted to laugh at someone else's 
choice of attire :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.

(Oh yes, and it used to spook the army - I took one of my big cloaks out 
in the field, rather than bedroll & basha.)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020805114848.35e72ae8@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <008901c23c6c$e2004c00$be09bd50@martinjd>
 <20020804173620.8351.57196.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <006901c23c1f$2dd85440$195d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020805181643.00a65470@minn.net>

At 11:48 AM 8/5/2002, Mr. Penguin Fancier wrote:
>At 11:42 AM 8/5/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>>>
>>> Hmm. I've always wanted to run an Arbellatra vs Gustus game. Maybe I
>>should
>>> actually do it.
>>
>>You should. Then I can play
>
>Dibs Arbellatra.  One of my favorite people in Traveller history.  Someday
>I'd love to write a sourcebook for the Arbellatra Regency.

I'll buy one.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1028584537.113.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1028584537.113.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <p04330106b974b83fd6de@[198.123.22.180]>

At 2:55 PM -0700 8/5/02, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>David P. Summers writes:
>
>>  Well, that isn't in the base GT rules or in CT (or in MT, I'm not
>>  sure).
>
>Well, neither have much in the way of larger sensors.  Still, even 
>in GT you'll
>need 25 cockpit bridges to get the sensor capabilities of one command bridge.

I'm not sure how you are adding these....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:26:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:26:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
References: <20805.140900.3G8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3D4F094F.3020905@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> I wonder how well a body exposed to LN2 or LH2 would shatter when
> struck? That'd be one way to reduce the body to a nice powder (or
> "slush" after it thaws) for easy disposal. 

Probably pretty well.

We used to do that with, erm, various rodentia parts; if you're looking 
for DNA adducts you have to keep 'em cold or they degrade.

I hated doing it though, grinding stuff in LN2 in a ceramic mortar and 
pestle makes this *awful* fingernails-on-chalkboard noises.

Take a LOT of LN2, though.

An industrial meat grinder would do far better and quicker.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
Message-ID: <OFF3DF5114.9F0FA072-ONCA256C0C.0080B0D9@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Mark asked:
>What is the TL of  the Imperium & the Terran Confederation in the Year 
1000 
>setting of T20?

15. The answer is always 15.

;-)  ;-)

(It's Twoday, and the jokes aren't getting any better. It's gonna be a 
l-o-n-g week...)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:31:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:31:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Low-tech naval forces
Message-ID: <200208052330.MDN00014@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Working on the Vilis landgrab, and it occurred to me that 
Vilis would be the source of a lot of the subsector navy - 
the Imperial Navy keeps its ships at Frenzie, the subsector 
capital, but Vilis has a lot more resources - it probably 
supplies a lot of the subsector navy.  The only drawback is 
its low tech level.

It is possible to build something that would satisfy what I 
see as the probable needs of a backwater subsector - if you 
assume that the Imperial Navy is more concerned with the 
Federation of Arden and the Zhodani threat (not to mention 
the occasional Sword World problem).

The major reason that Vilis and Frenzie, and the worlds 
nearby, would welcome Imperial forces is that it allows the 
consolidation of their own local area.  The Imperials get a 
forward base of operations and a ready supply of bodies to 
volunteer for service (billions and billions).

That leaves the local forces to conduct local show the flag 
ops, space control over a small set of systems along a Jump-1 
route from Vilis to Frenzie, and anti-piracy patrol.  Even a 
TL 9 ship should be able to conduct basic anti-piracy patrol 
against the typical "ethically challenged" merchant.

These forces would not last in a stand-up battle against 
major forces such as the Zhodani, but they could exist in 
large enough numbers to make piracy a difficult proposition.

Just working on a small carrier (9000 ton) with 200 fighters, 
and a few small escorts for work around the systems near 
Vilis and Frenzie.  Quite a change from massive TL15 ships 
sporting T meson guns.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
Message-ID: <OF2F3C29E3.8D5E3297-ONCA256C0C.0081279C@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Martin replied:
>>What is the TL of  the Imperium & the Terran Confederation in the
>>Year 1000 setting of T20?
>
>The Impeirum is TL 14 mostly, with Tl 15 just creeping in over the last 
few
>years.

OK, this one's got me puzzled, I'll give a serious reply now.

By the time 1105 rocks around, the Imperium averages out at TL 13 (MT's 
"Average Stellar"), with many TL 14 and quite a few TL 15's ("High 
Stellar").

Given that, I would have thought that in 1100 the Imperium would be at TL 
_13_, with "TL 14 just creeping in"?

What TL is the original AHL (built c.1005)? I thought it was built using 
the best tech at the time, and thus fitted out at TL 14 (with j-5 
drives)??
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
In-Reply-To: <OF2F3C29E3.8D5E3297-ONCA256C0C.0081279C@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <3D4FB7E8.30830.7F429A@localhost>

On 6 Aug 2002 at 9:38, david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:

> Dear Folks -
> 
> Martin replied:
> >>What is the TL of  the Imperium & the Terran Confederation in the
> >>Year 1000 setting of T20?
> >
> >The Impeirum is TL 14 mostly, with Tl 15 just creeping in over the last 
> few
> >years.
> 
> OK, this one's got me puzzled, I'll give a serious reply now.
> 
> By the time 1105 rocks around, the Imperium averages out at TL 13 (MT's 
> "Average Stellar"), with many TL 14 and quite a few TL 15's ("High 
> Stellar").
> 
> Given that, I would have thought that in 1100 the Imperium would be at TL 
> _13_, with "TL 14 just creeping in"?
> 
> What TL is the original AHL (built c.1005)? I thought it was built using 
> the best tech at the time, and thus fitted out at TL 14 (with j-5 
> drives)??

IIRC the Imperial peak TL just nudged over into TL15 during the Rim 
War, which ended in 1009 (I think).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:57:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:57:04 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>

Hi Tim,
   For what it is worth, I started to respond to this thread earlier before 
I had to go to bed and get some sleep...

If you could, so I can check your reasoning:

List all of the modifiers to gunner's skill you are using in a 
missile/antimissile engagement.

Example:

Skill 12 laser gunner
Accuracy 32 Laser platform
Gunnery +6 to hit program

Range penalty -39
ROF bonus +10
Point Defense phase bonus +10
Active Sensor lock +2

Total modifiers:
12+ 32 + 6 + 10 + 10 + 2 - 39 = 72-39 = 32

Rolling an average of 10 on 3d6 means that you will have succeeded by 
22.  Number of missiles successfully engaged in that round will be equal to 
round((22-3)/2,0) or 19/2 rounded up or 10.

Please note that second edition rules for TRAVELLER have bumped up the ROF 
bonus from their current levels to current levels +3.  Also note that 
instead of rolling for each missile being engaged by point defense, you 
roll only once for the entire "turn".  Thus, in the example given above, 
the gunner with skill 12 is engaging a group of incoming missiles *will* 
engage the incoming group and nail 10 missiles.  If less than 10 are 
inbound, that single gunner stops it cold.  If more than 10 are inbound, he 
stops 10 and the rest hit.

                               Hal


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:58:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:58:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
In-Reply-To: <20020805125303.24699.70318.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020805125303.24699.70318.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <j14uku0gpb04hc31qnlhbjes50l610n0t8@4ax.com>

On Mon, 05 Aug 2002 05:53:03 -0700, john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:

>----- Original Message -----
>From: Hunter Gordon <trav@RPGRealms.com>
>Date: Sunday, August 4, 2002 11:45 am
>Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)

 
>> On 8/4/2002 at 4:21 PM Antony Farrell wrote:
 
>> >Was that spam and eggs
>> >or spam, spam egs and spam?
 
>> Ok gotta keep it on topic!
 
>> Pardons if this has actually been covered previously.
 
>> So does SPAM survive the Rule of Man, the Long Night and into the 
>> Third Imperium? If so, is it just a Solomani thing, or have the 
>> Vilani and others come to enjoy this uniquely Terran... ummm .... 
>> stuff? I'm just picturing a group of adventurers finding an old 
>> Rule of Man cache, stockpiled with cans of good old SPAM!

>Ah, you should have saved that question for a Newbie Essay [tm]! ;-)

>Actually, it's quite plausible that SPAM was a significant factor in the 
>Solomanification of former Vilani worlds.  To wit:

>1.  SPAM would likely be included in relief aid to former Vilani worlds 
>ravaged by Terran-introduced pandemics.
>2.  Given that SPAM does not require processing by shugiili, and that 
>SPAM has a relatively long shelf life ("long" in a geological sense, 
>that is), it would go far in breaking the power of the shugiili in 
>Vilani society.
>3.  Add to these factors the relative conservatism of Vilani culture and 
>you find that, once SPAM was introduced on former Vilani-ruled worlds, 
>it tended to remain a staple of the diet on those worlds, thus ensuring 
>that SPAM would continue to be consumed (if not necessarily enjoyed) up 
>into M:1100.
>4.  Until such time as the fine folks at Hormel licensed the production 
>of SPAM on worlds other than Earth, the Terrans would be the only source 
>of this staple, thus economically binding the former Vilani worlds 
>closer to Terra.  Even after SPAM production began on worlds other than 
>Earth, genuine Terran SPAM was held to be superior, commanding premium 
>prices.  This coopted Sharushiid into the ruling SPAM consortium.
>5.  We can thus also see that the Solomani Rim War, with its focus on 
>the capture of Terra, was driven by the desire to control the original 
>point source of SPAM.

>QED. ;-)

>Hmmm.  Perhaps I should write up Hormel Foods as a megacorp using the 
>Universal Corporate Profile from _101 Corporations_....

Do it!

You might want to consider redacting this thread and sending it to Hormel
for giggles - who knows; if they research it, we might gain a couple of new
fans! :)

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:06:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:06:05 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020806083856.E27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028592330.6838.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> Anthony Jackson wrote:
> > Sorry.  You first have to throw out the ROF modifiers in GT and use
> > standard GURPS rules ;)
> 
> Ah, that makes more sense :)
> 
> Even so, have you considered the problem of loss of accuracy with
> higher-RoF weapons of the same overall size?
> 
> If you allow Vehicles-designed missiles, a typical target might be a
> Size -1 object closing at 300 mi/s with 12 gee maneuverability and
> effective DR 600.  A missile rack would launch up to 20 of these in a
> salvo.  Depending upon whether your opponent respects the Imperial
> Rules of War, they may or may not have nuclear warheads.

Ok, that's reasonable.  Now, let's look at a point defense system:

36 megajoule x-ray laser, ROF 8*, compact.  2.0 T, 80 cf, $280k.  Range 7,700
miles, Acc 29
Full stabilization: 0.2T, 8 cf, $40k
9 x rE cell, good for 50 shots: 0.09T, $90k
Dedicated Macroframe: 0.25T, $50k, complexity 11
Targeting +12: $512k (but probably gets a bulk discoute)
Assume gunner skill is 14.  Total effective skill, if aiming for 4 seconds
before firing a burst, is 43 (and a miss by 1 hits, so call it 44).  Note that
there are several different calculations of Acc in space combat (Vehicles and
Space 3e both have different systems), all of which disagree; with the Vehicles
system beam weapons in space have no Acc cap, effective skill would be 55, and
hitting is no challenge.  That's probably the most realistic one, too).

The missile is being fired at one second before impact (300 mile range, +300
miles for velocity, we'll ignore this making no sense) and the range penalty is
34, -1 for size, so chance of hitting once is 9.  We can fire two bursts easily
enough; in fact, if we start firing a bit sooner we'll also get two rolls at 8-
and 4 rolls at 7-, which means the chance of leaking through is around 10%. 
Obviously, using the Vehicles acc rule, the hit roll is 20 or less, and we
might as well drop to single shot with 1 turn of aiming, which means 20 seconds
before impact (effective range 6600) there's still a 50% chance of hitting, and
your single launcher kills an average 8 missiles before impact.

Hm...that's actually worse than I realized.  Oh well, if they send a really big
swarm of missiles at you simply dump a canister round in front of them.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:07:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:07:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805085604.018d7340@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAELOEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>It is canon, Traveller has whopping big fleet carriers (not to mention the
>Tigress class BBs) which carry huge number of fighters.
>
>The imperium obviously believes they have a need for large numbers of
>fighters. AFAIK carrier squadrons are equated with cruiser squadrons (see
>Fighting Ships) and presumably carry out some of the same missions.
Commerce
>raiding is possible but would you need a fleet carrier for that?

How about fighters are best for use against other fighters? If you are using
fighter for a multitude of missions, planetary support, SDB hunting, as
widely dispersed sensor pickets, etc. then maybe fighters are the best
weapon system to take out these other fighters.

Also while point defense may be very good against missiles I would expect a
fighter to have defenses of its own. For example mini-sand casters which
fire a small enough amount of sand to protect a fighter. Short range
missiles that can be used against missiles or rail guns (VRFGGs), which
might be effective against missiles. All of these weapons would be mere
fractions of a dton in size (If you use GURPS install them as modular grav
system components. They should be small enough to fit in wasted space in the
ship.) Use standard GURPS vehicle combat rules rather than space combat
rules for active defense by the fighter. This gives fighters an edge over
missiles against point defense, which would be a good reason why they are
still used.

If this is true then the best weapon against a fighter might very well be
another fighter. Use the space combat rules for long distance combat, but if
the fighters enter the same hex switch to short range weapons:

"He's too close for the main laser, Switching to guns!"

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:09:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:09:15 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
Message-ID: <OFF9549605.CA2D48D8-ONCA256C0C.008210E4@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Tim said:
>> You want to know what the results are of a 50 lb rock tossed via a
>> Trebuchet against a Far Trader's hull?  GURPS VEHICLES has rules for
>> it.
>
>Yes, this sort of very wide scope is what I like best about GURPS in
>general.  Given Traveller's range of planetary tech levels, this might
>easily come up in a game!

Have I got a deal for you! Follow the links at Beowulf Down to find 
low-tech weaponry! Go to Repair Bays ==> House Rules ==> Weapons Tables 
==> Archaic Missile Weapons ==> Torsion Projectile Weapons. All stats 
written for MT.

Oh, rats. No trebuchet. You'll have to make do with a catapult for now. 
Pen 7 out to 1 km, doing 5D damage. A Free Trader has AC 40 (HG "0" 
armour), so it will only scratch the paint, unless you hit a window (cloth 
AC 5, unless you prefer AC = TL = 8 for the trader). Important safety tip: 
Don't Forget To Close The Window Shutters. In return, my single "pathetic" 
TL 8 pulse laser (Weapons Tables ==> Starship Weapons) has Pen 79 out to 
50 km, doing 75D damage(**). Ouch! Hey, catapults burn really well, don't 
they? What fool made them out of WOOD??

Now where did I stash my old set of siege weapons - under the bed? Dig out 
that trebuchet and set it up, we'll want to fire some rocks at that old 
Beowulf I use as a towed target... ooh, nice hit! OK, I'll have to try 
translate the results into some more stats for you. ;-)

**Bill Hostman and the MT Players' Handbook will disagree with me here, 
saying the damage really should be _750_ dice. Yes, DICE, not hit points. 
However, I think that's really just a bit of overkill. Really. ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:10:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:10:46 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Landgrab of Vilis
Message-ID: <20020806000823.69621.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>

>If I'm doing Vilis, I think I had better do Garda-Vilis, 
>unless someone has already done that one.

That's Tanoose to you, apologist scum!

This message has been brought to you by the Tanoose Freedom League.

*********************************************
The sender of this message takes no responsibility for its content. 
The views expressed in this message are not necessarily the views of
the sender.  The sender has sent this message only as an
accomodation.

--Glenn

P.S.  You have Adventure 5 (I think): Broadsword, don't you?  

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:12:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:12:16 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <p04330106b974b83fd6de@[198.123.22.180]>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028592626.5758.ajackson@ping>

David P. Summers writes:
> 
> I'm not sure how you are adding these....

Cockpit bridge: nominal sensor range (PESA) 20,000
Command bridge: nominal sensor range (PESA) 100,000
Area covered by a given sensor: proportional to square of range.
Note that since, in space, stealth in GT is twice as effective as emissions
cloaking, there's really no point to useing the AESA, the PESA is almost always
more effective.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] vilis landgrab
References: <20020805215729.6122.21835.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <004401c23cde$cd707220$eeb18b90@computer>

> From: "John T. Kwon"
> Mark Urbin is handling Garda-Vilis.  However, I'm looking at
> systems that will probably be trading/communicating with
> Vilis, and I see
>
> Vilis       Kwon grabs this
> Garda-Vilis Urbin grabs this

I was considering doing a landgrab of Vilis a couple of months back. I got
as far as doing the "literature review" before getting bored.

The main thing that struck me was that Vilis, and Garda-Vilis, were settled
_before_ the establishment of the Imperium. In the case of Garda-Vilis, we
know that it was settled by Sword Worlders, and it seems likely that Vilis
was too.

There are also inconsistencies in the sources! One source gives much later
dates for settlement of the worlds. I was thinking that this might indicate
a secondary wave of immigration.

My suggestion would be to talk up the Sword Worldishness of these worlds.
There is absolutely no reason why culturally Sword Worlder worlds couldn't
exist within the Imperium, and it would give a rather clear flavour to the
societies.

I also had some thoughts about the factions of the Ine Givar that were
present, and their relationships with each other, the Tanoose Freedom
League, and Solomani supremicist groups, but I will spare you those.

Oh. One interesting thing is that Vilis isn't the capital of Vilis
subsector, while being the "capital" of a multi-world polity. Is there a
"Count of Vilis", as well as a "Duke of Vilis"?

You are welcome to either use or ignore any of these silly ideas.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <B9732F75.68182%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000001c23cde$c8128b60$6501a8c0@Darla>

While there is probably no way to completely mitigate the horrific
effects of war on the human psyche, I do presume that the Imperium will
use more advanced psychological techniques then now available for the
selection and retention of people in combat units.  I also assume that
the current degree of superstition and stigma associated with getting
mental health treatment will be a thing of the past in the 57th century
--  to the point where a combat veteran receiving treatment for PTSD (or
whatever we are calling it) before discharge will be no more remarkable
than getting medical treatment for physical wounds.

This would also mean that retirements or reassignments due to mental
health reasons would be as common as those due to injuries.  Presumably
combat vets would be offered the opportunity to re-muster into a support
unit, but some might refuse that..."Yeah, got a downcheck from the
Medical Officer when we debriefed from that job on Kinorb.  They offered
me a transfer to Logistics Command, but f**k that - I'm a soldier, not a
civilian wearing a uniform.  So, I took my walking papers and opened up
this place...what can I get for ya?"

In game terms, all this gets rolled up in the survival throw during
character generation.  IMTU, failing a survival throw by 4 or more kills
the character.  Failing by 3 or less represents anything that prevents
the character from continuing in that career.

TWB


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:19:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:19:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Taxes
In-Reply-To: <m33ctujfxj.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <000801c23cde$c9cdcff0$6501a8c0@Darla>

> >
> > IMTU the Imperium gets at 10% tariff on the value of all goods
> > shipped interstellar, plus 10% of the fares charged for interstellar
> > passage.  The Imperium does not levy any direct taxes on
> > individuals.
> 
> Those rates would make it _very_ difficult to make a profit as a free
> trader...
> 

That is true...but for MTU I wanted a Free Trader to be economically
marginal, and probably not practical unless you get an old (i.e. cheap)
ship and/or do some speculative trade on the side.  

TWB


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: 5 Aug 2002 - Freelance Traveller NOT Updated :(
Message-ID: <20020806002701.39745.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Freelance Traveller <editor@freelancetraveller.com>

>Due to an unexpected confluence of factors, mostly involving the 
>effect of weather on human activities (we lost power Friday evening
>when a tree took down some wires down the block during the storm,
>and I spent most of Saturday recovering from a fifteen-hour outage),


Yes, the weather here in Northern California has been quite
atrocious, too.  It was partly cloudy for nearly a week, and the
temperatures stayed below 70F almost all day.  I don't know how we
survived it.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:29:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:29:31 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
Message-ID: <OF83374F94.00E76973-ONCA256C0D.00020AC8@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

John wrote:
>> So does SPAM survive the Rule of Man, the Long Night and into the 
>> Third Imperium?
>
>Ah, you should have saved that question for a Newbie Essay [tm]! ;-)
>
>Actually, it's quite plausible that SPAM was a significant factor in the 
>Solomanification of former Vilani worlds.  To wit:

Brilliant exposition of the balance-of-power conferred to the Terrans by 
their all-conquering secret weapon, Spam! Keyboard kill! <applauds>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:31:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:31:12 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Large Scale Games, One Traveller, one WW3[Long]
Message-ID: <20020806003053.77072.qmail@web20414.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Shadowcat" <res053z0@gten.net>

>The second game was a traveller game at a previous Winter Wars 
>a couple of years after the historic Shadows tournament, which 
>was called Diplomatic Mission. This was a 6 hour game with 24 
>players that dealt with the reopening of trade to a redzoned world.
[deletion]
>This game lasted 6 very hectic hours, and had a grand total of 2 die

[deletion]
>I have seriously considered reconstructing the aspects of this 
>game for another convention, or even as an IRC game, but there 
>are too many problems for it to work as an IRC game.

It would make a great convention game, however.

--Glenn



__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller
Message-ID: <20020806003342.77711.qmail@web20414.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net>
>
>(Across cyberspace, someone asks himself: What about processed
>cheese food products in the Third Imperium?)

They are a staple of starship life, for which the Vilani are
eternally grateful to the Solomani.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:41:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:41:15 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <20020806004033.73952.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>

>I've read a pretty persuasive argument by Charles Pellegrino 
>that outlines every reason why we should, even in the absence 
>of direct contact, assume that a starfaring species, a 
>species capable of manipulating the energies necessary to 
>span stellar distances, is a direct apocalyptic threat to our 
>existence, and that other species must make this same 

[deletion]

>Humans have a built-in cultural inhibition against 
>intraspecies murder - or else murder would be more common.  
>But make it an alien species, and we won't have that 
>inhibition by nature.  Any inhibition we have will come from 
>intellect and not instinct.  And any restraint we have will 
>be easy, perilously easy, to lose.  It will be difficult not 
>to fear them by instinct.

It's clearly part of Grandfather's purpose for humans that he
scattered us among the stars and encouraged the development of the
jump drive among the three major races at about the same time.  That
way, our first discoveries of other starfaring races would be of
other humans, and we would be somewhat less likely to try to
annihilate one another at once.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] vilis landgrab
Message-ID: <200208060043.MDP00769@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Alan Bradley" asks
>The main thing that struck me was that Vilis, and Garda-
>Vilis, were settled _before_ the establishment of the 
>Imperium. In the case of Garda-Vilis, we know that it was 
>settled by Sword Worlders, and it seems likely that Vilis
>was too.

Indeed.

>There are also inconsistencies in the sources! One source 
>gives much later dates for settlement of the worlds. I was 
>thinking that this might indicate a secondary wave of 
>immigration.

There's nothing wrong with multiple waves of settlement.

>My suggestion would be to talk up the Sword Worldishness of 
>these worlds.

I had the idea that they were Sword Worlders, but that the 
families that settled Vilis and Garda-Vilis left the 
homeworld completely - for reasons that remain speculative.  
But I would intimate that there is either a sense of being 
cast out or a sense of abandonment, depending on who tells 
the story.  The reasons that the settlers left may give some 
distinct difference between their culture and the one that 
was left behind.

>There is absolutely no reason why culturally Sword Worlder 
>worlds couldn't exist within the Imperium, and it would give 
>a rather clear flavour to the societies.
>

>I also had some thoughts about the factions of the Ine Givar 
>that were present, and their relationships with each other, 
>the Tanoose Freedom League, and Solomani supremicist groups, 
>but I will spare you those.
>

No, tell me more.

>Oh. One interesting thing is that Vilis isn't the capital of 
>Vilis subsector, while being the "capital" of a multi-world 
>polity. Is there a "Count of Vilis", as well as a "Duke of 
>Vilis"?
>

I have one obscure reference to a Duke of Vilis.  I think 
that Frenzie is the subsector capital because the Imperial 
Naval Base is there - the population there serves mainly as 
the service population for the naval base and yards.  And the 
Naval Base is there because it's a better strategic position 
than Vilis.  I would, however, believe that a lot of the 
local politics (less than the subsector, but entailing the 
little cluster within Jump-1) are dominated by Vilis.

________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020806000604.2646.31858.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <006201c23ce3$2b1f27a0$eeb18b90@computer>

> From: "Douglas E. Berry"
> Dibs Arbellatra.  One of my favorite people in Traveller history.

Unfortunately, if it were to happen, I would have to randomly assign people
to particular positions, and keep them anonymous, in order to ensure that
all communications passed through my hands.

I was thinking about how many players would be needed last night. 7 would be
minimum, 11 would be optimal, more would be too hard to manage.

It would also be a huge amount of work for me to do.

> Someday I'd love to write a sourcebook for the Arbellatra Regency.

And I'd love to read it!

I've done quite a bit of work on the Civil War period, but the problem I
kept running into was: why play in this period rather than in the 1100s? The
problem is that essentially, it's still the Imperium, with all the familiar
structures in place, with only rather modest changes.

It will be interesting to see how the T20 writers deal with this.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com






From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:48:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:48:28 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
Message-ID: <006301c23ce3$2bcea180$eeb18b90@computer>

> From: "Rupert Boleyn"
> IIRC the Imperial peak TL just nudged over into TL15 during the Rim
> War, which ended in 1009 (I think).

I would take TL 15 as being the equivalent of TL 16 in Milieu 1100:
something rather rare and wonderful.

TL 14 would be the equivalent of TL 15 - the TL of most modern military
gear. Depending on how long TL 14 had been around, a fair bit of older stuff
might be TL 14 too.

The counter mix from Invasion Earth might be worth studying. Images of it
may be available on the Far Futures website.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:51:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Barnett-Lewis)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:51:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra (was Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
References: <20020806000604.2646.31858.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D4F1C5A.95CD40DE@mailbag.com>

> At 11:48 AM 8/5/2002, Mr. Penguin Fancier wrote:
> >At 11:42 AM 8/5/2002 +0100, you wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hmm. I've always wanted to run an Arbellatra vs Gustus game. Maybe I
> >>should
> >>> actually do it.
> >>
> >>You should. Then I can play
> >
> >Dibs Arbellatra.  One of my favorite people in Traveller history.  Someday
> >I'd love to write a sourcebook for the Arbellatra Regency.
> 
> I'll buy one.

Doug's writing? I'll buy a dozen and give them all away. I can't think
of a better way to hook newbies into Traveller than the 3ICW as done by
him. That era gives everything anyone could want in a milleau. 

 
> Les


So when does it show on BITS/SJG/T20 new releases schedule? :'p I need
to pay for yet another partial cup of coffee!

William
-- 
You better watch out   What you wish for;
It better be worth it  So much to die for.
		       Courtney Love

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:52:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:52:19 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  The cloak
Message-ID: <20020806004801.59831.qmail@web20422.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Mark Urbin" <urbin@bigfoot.com>

>The favorite obsuring garment of the ages.  From knights hiding
>their armor & swords to Kent Allard striking terror in the hearts of
>evil doers...it has been part of popular fiction.
>
>How common are they in your Traveller universe?

ca. 1100s, they are in fashion at the Imperial court, and therefore
commonly worn by nobles everywhere.  Commoners only wear them when
the weather demands it.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:54:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:54:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Astronomy Boffin Question
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020805110124.358f5e36@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0208060246490.363897-100000@svati>

On Mon, 5 Aug 2002, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

>At 10:27 PM 8/4/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>>How big can a rocky asteroid be and still be irregular?
>
>At a guess, about 100 miles diameter.

Actually, it is almost a factor of ten bigger. Both 1 Ceres
and 2 Pallas are slightly irregular at 960 x 932km and
570 x 525 x 482km respectively. 1000km is a fairly accurat upper
limit.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020805112347.358f6ef0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNGEMBEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>ObTrav: This would not be a problem for interstellar troops, since minimum
>>travel time is a week. Maximum travel time could be much higher. (Which is
>>why I especially have a problem with GT designs which use bunkrooms.)
Could
>>a really large troop transport incorporate a habitat module to use as a
>>training area? It strikes me that a holoventure module might work really
>>well for battledress units and vehicle drivers (tank, fighter, etc.) but
>>that regular troops will need more room to practice small unit tactics,
>>unless the holoventure studios work as good as ST holodecks.
>
>The designs in Ground Forces include firing ranges and other small training
>areas, but as you say, the troops could be in cramped quarters for a good
>time.  Which could be an invitation for more adventures.  This was partly
>inspired by a Bill Maudlin cartoon showing troops in bunks stacked four
>high with no room to breath, and the First Sergeant standing there saying
>"Look, th' schedule calls for calisthenics, so we're gonna start with the
>left eyebrow..."
>
>Here's a fun game to play if you have Ground Forces.  You are a Force
>Lieutenant assigned to a Caen-class ship.  You are lying in your bunk, and
>feeling a bit peckish.  How do you get to the officer's mess?  :)
>--
>
>Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.

Let me start by saying I absolutely love 95% of Ground Forces. I think the
colors great. I like everything from the unit structure information, to the
battledress designs, to the modular grav design system.

The one thing I can't stand is the ship designs. I loath the Caen. Among
other problems: Where are the navy ratings bunked? They certainly wouldn't
be with the Marines, not since the rest of canon says that they should be
living in staterooms, which I would suppose are separate from the officer's
staterooms. I could go on and on about the failings of the design, but I
don't want to rant.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
Message-ID: <OFEF72E03B.8084570D-ONCA256C0D.0005E3D1@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Rupert said:
>> Given that, I would have thought that in 1100 the Imperium would be at 
TL 
>> _13_, with "TL 14 just creeping in"?
>> 
>> What TL is the original AHL (built c.1005)? I thought it was built 
using 
>> the best tech at the time, and thus fitted out at TL 14 (with j-5 
>> drives)??
>
>IIRC the Imperial peak TL just nudged over into TL15 during the Rim 
>War, which ended in 1009 (I think).

Doh! Just looked at my Library Data, which has the Sol Rim War from 990 to 
1002.

Well, even if they've just reached TL 15, I think my original assertion 
still stands.

Oh, and yeah, I meant 1000, not 1100 (you knew that, right?).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <20020805082530.D24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEMCEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>> This gave them the necessary range, a single 10,000 mile GURPS
>> Traveller hex, to be effective weapons.
>
>Ah, that explains it.  You're using a two-dimensional map.  Yes, if
>you can restrict spacecraft to move in a plane, then I agree that
>space mines can be effective.  (But even then, only if you don't use
>the GURPS Traveller space combat system)
>
>
?????

What has that to do with anything. A det-laser mine that can fire across a
10,000 mile hex, can fire across a 10,000 sphere. After doing some searching
on my hard drive I find that actual range is more like 9 hexes, so in a
three dimensional game that would be a sphere 180,000 miles across. Of
course I remember you poo pooing the idea then too. (Note: some of your
comments, especially on robot controlled mines, computer programs and mines
with active sensors were right on.)
I think the best system we came up with was one where the mines were
controlled by either a controlling sensor platform or a ship. This makes the
mines smaller and cheaper. The sensors "paint" the target for the passive
sensors on the mines to pick up.
And as in real life these mines would be more of an area denial weapon than
an actual threat to a capital ship. And you would have to seed many many
mines which would probably not be station keeping, but would be moving
enmass into an area. Part of the point would be to force ships attempting to
traverse the area to slow down, use sensors and weapons to clear the mine
field. This alone would make them detectable to opposing craft.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Aircraft carrier displacement
Message-ID: <20020806013316.28336.qmail@web20418.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>

> Daniel Tackett wrote:

>> Would anyone here know how many displacement tons a
>>U.S. aircraft carrier like the "Enterprise" would be?

>Check out Ken Pick's excellent essay on Traveller starship tonnage. 
>It's on the Freelance Traveller website, I believe.
>
>Basically:
>
>	5 tons gross ship displacement(in today's nautical terms)=1
>displacement ton in Traveller.
>
>These are approximate, and there are some fairly complicated 
>variables, but this is a good rule of thumb.
>
>The essay also lists some typical ships and their Traveller tonnage:
>Carrier USS Enterprise (TL7): 75000 tons std, 90000 full-load = 
>approx. 18000 Tons Traveller 

That might be a good rule of thumb.  The Traveller dton is a measure
of volume, 1.5m x 1.5m x 3.0m, or 13.5m3.

The dimensions of the USS Enterprise (CVN-65) are given at these web
sites:

http://www02.clf.navy.mil/enterprise/
http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/factfile/ships/ship-cv.html

length = 335.64m
beam = 39.9m
height = 76.2m (keel to mast)

I was not able to find out the height of the mast and the conning
tower.  I'll assume that it's half of the keel to mast height.  That
gives a volume of 335.64 x 39.9 x 38.1 = 510,236m3.  510,236/13.5 =
37,795 dtons.  

The Enterprise is not a rectangular box, of course, so it is possible
that sloped sides make up for about half of the difference in volume
between its real shape and that of a rectangular box.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:36:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:36:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <20020806013559.48555.qmail@web20417.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>

>Dibs Arbellatra.  One of my favorite people in Traveller history.  
>Someday I'd love to write a sourcebook for the Arbellatra Regency.

You beat me to it!  She is also one of my favorites.  I see her
regency as a turning point in Imperial history at several levels.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump governor
Message-ID: <200208060139.MDR00542@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I don't see these in High Guard - IMTU, they don't exist.  If 
a Jump-4 ship jumps 2 parsecs, they only use 2 parsecs worth 
of fuel.

What was the last canon word on this subject, if any? 
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
 <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]>
Message-ID: <p0433010bb974d90d92ee@[198.123.22.180]>

One thought that came up in this thead.  One you get to high enough 
scale, things become binary, either you can fire enough missiles to 
overwhelm the point defenses, or you can't.  (Not getting into 
"saving up missles" and other stuff).

What is the view toward using nukes for point defense?  Is it OK 
since it is "defensive"?  I think the Imperium wouldn't allow it (why 
do you have a nuke in the first place?) and it would only matter for 
fleet battles anyway...  So it would come down to any agreements, 
unspoken or otherwise, between the major powers (Impies vs Zhos, 
Impies vs Solos, Hivers vs the K'Kree) and whether it is seen as 
provoking retaliation.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020805215043.E25687@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEMDEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>Yes; either remove the chemical warhead or replace it with a fusion
>warhead.  A chemical explosive makes little sense.  Even the standard
>missiles accelerate to 72 km/s in the first round -- putting a
>chemical explosive in them is a bit like putting a spring-loaded
>boxing glove on an anti-tank penetrator.
>
>
The only reason I can think of is to allow you to self destruct the missile
if necessary.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:55:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:55:24 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1028592626.5758.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1028592626.5758.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <p0433010cb974db4e1b41@[198.123.22.180]>

At 5:10 PM -0700 8/5/02, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>David P. Summers writes:
>>
>>  I'm not sure how you are adding these....
>
>Cockpit bridge: nominal sensor range (PESA) 20,000
>Command bridge: nominal sensor range (PESA) 100,000
>Area covered by a given sensor: proportional to square of range.
>Note that since, in space, stealth in GT is twice as effective as emissions
>cloaking, there's really no point to useing the AESA, the PESA is 
>almost always
>more effective.


You are assuming close packed spheres.  Since object are likely 
moving wrt to each other, you would leave gaps.  Ie, you would have 
successive "shells" of sensors that object would need to pass through 
to approach (and fighters have high G ratings and can cover more 
ground per sensor by moveing around).  Also, If you take sensor input 
from multiple sensors and combine them, it is possible to generate 
detection of things that couldn't be detected within the range of 
anyone sensor.  Lastly, the advantage that a fighter gives only its 
own position, and not that of the capital ship, if it is caught first 
is non-trivial
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:57:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:57:14 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <p0433010bb974d90d92ee@[198.123.22.180]>
References: <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]>
 <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
 <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020805220304.026d01a0@mail.buffnet.net>

At 06:41 PM 08/05/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>One thought that came up in this thead.  One you get to high enough scale, 
>things become binary, either you can fire enough missiles to overwhelm the 
>point defenses, or you can't.  (Not getting into "saving up missles" and 
>other stuff).
>
>What is the view toward using nukes for point defense?  Is it OK since it 
>is "defensive"?  I think the Imperium wouldn't allow it (why do you have a 
>nuke in the first place?) and it would only matter for fleet battles 
>anyway...  So it would come down to any agreements, unspoken or otherwise, 
>between the major powers (Impies vs Zhos, Impies vs Solos, Hivers vs the 
>K'Kree) and whether it is seen as provoking retaliation.

I agree with the assessment about the "binary" situation.  I rather liked 
the concept of firing at each missile per wave.  If you want to insure that 
you don't get "leakage" you assign two gunners to each missile.  Then 
again?  Missiles can be bad enough as they are without allowing them to 
hit         ;)

Oh well.  Part of me likes the first edition rules, part of me likes the 
second edition.  Arrrghhhhh.  I still remember how disgusted I felt when I 
saw the new edition rules granting a +3 bonus to all the ROF bonuses - 
meant I would have had to go in and change all of my point defense lasers 
I'd built for CGI (my fictional Weapon's company).  Such was life then that 
I took it down.  Oh well.

                   Hal


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:59:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:59:05 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020805221551.F25687@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEMDEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>> What you do is build lasers whose only purpose of existance is to
>> damage missiles.  Build those lasers so that you have a high rate of
>> fire.
>
>High RoF doesn't do a lot.  It just counts as a bonus to hit in the
>combat system.  e.g. Multiplying the RoF by 16 gives you +4 bonus.
>This would mean 2 extra hits per shot, except:
>
>For the same volume requirement, your weapon has to use about 10 times
>less energy per shot.  That cuts the damage by a factor of about 3,
>which doesn't matter a lot against the standard missiles.  It will
>however reduce your range by a factor of 3 -- not a problem, you say,
>because you only need less than a hex?  Range directly determines
>accuracy, which will thus drop by 3.
>
>The net effect is a +1 to hit.  You're almost back where you started,
>except that now your weapon is greatly restricted in its utility for
>any other role.
>
>I've been along that route :-/

In the playtest for Starships I believe it was stated that you simply use a
computer program to reconfigure your standard lasers for point defense. It
is assumed that point defense takes place at very short ranges (for space
combat.)


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 20:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fred Ramen)
Date: Mon Aug  5 19:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra (WAS: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
Message-ID: <00fa01c23ced$9eedde60$331df7a5@pctframen>

"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes:

"Dibs Arbellatra.  One of my favorite people in Traveller history.  Someday
I'd love to write a sourcebook for the Arbellatra Regency."

Aye, mine too. Such a book might finally answer the question of just what
kind of leader she was.

IMHO, the model for Arbellatra is Augustus--not Julius--Caesar. That is, she
was more a illiant politician than a brilliant general. I base this on a few
factors:

1) She essentially lost the 2FW but still managed to declare victory and
mobilize the Marches behind her. (Remember, the Imperium ceded territory to
the Zhodani after the war, and Library Data mentions that the final
engagement resulted in a "stalemate" between the two sides. She basically
one the war the same way the U.S. "won" the War of 1812--by not losing as
badly as expected.)

2) It seems doubtful to me that even after a decade of civil war her
provincial fleet could cow the Vland Sector Fleet--yet she must have had the
cooperation of Vland sector, as others have pointed out, in order to
triumph. Again, this demonstrates her political acumen.

3) Her masterly stroke of refusing the crown is remarkably similar to
Augustus' own "retirement" from government--while in truth retaining a firm
grip on the reins of power. (The people of Rome demanded at one point that
he publish a list of candidates he favored, so they would know who to vote
for--not from coercion, but from a devotion to Augustus.)

My interpretation may also explain her meteoric rise to high command at such
a young age--perhaps her title of Grand Admiral of the Marches was a
ceremonial one, or rank was determined by noble standing to a much greater
degree in the antebellum Imperium. (Indeed, perhaps Arbellatra reformed the
military to make it more egalitarian, not only to prevent a rival from
rising in a fashion like her own, but to insure loyalty to the Emperor and
the Imperium and not the individual commander, as seems to be the case with
Plankwell and the other Emperors of the Flag.)

Fred "Arbellatra Divina" Ramen


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 20:16:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Aug  5 19:16:31 2002
Subject: [TML] "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"
Message-ID: <20020806021519.42100.qmail@web11304.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Under the rules of war, we've been discussing, if an
enemy intentionally builds fortifications or other
military structures among a civilian populance, then
that enemy becomes rssponsible for the safety of those
aforementioned civilians. If those civilians are
actively and willfully supporting the enemy, then they
are no longer considered noncombatants. So, it IS Al
Quaida's fault and responsibility if the US
intentionally seeks to bomb a legitimate military
target that Al Qaida has hidden behind a human shield.
END QUOTE

Bomb civilians? To be polite what the f*&# are all the
special forces for? A bunch of civilians having a
wedding on an arms dump hardly need to be strafed by
C-130 gunships! Most would surrender as soon as ground
troops approached and those who attacked would be
shot. Sure maybe some troops would be shot, but they
knew that when they signed up. Killing hundreds of
civilians just to save a few of "our" soldiers is not
an ethical trade! During the early part of the Korean
war US forces where ordered by the Supreme Command to
fire on any refugees attempting to croos their lines,
in case the North Korean army was using them as
infiltrators! The Pentagon has repeatedly tried to
cover this up, my fear is much the same thing is going
on today. And I am not a dove to use the American
term, I advocated intervention in Afgahnistan three
years ago. I also support the invasion of Iraq
(Actually I believe Saddam should have been dead in
91). However killing civilians just because it is
easier than using ground forces is no excuse. Except
in exceptional circumstances such as using the A-bomb
on japan (though I would have preferred a live "test"
on a non populated region), where its purpose was more
to break the spirit of the japanese and prevent even
worse civilian casualties.

James

http://digital.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Digital How To
- Get the best out of your PC!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 20:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 19:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] UWP generator
In-Reply-To: <20020730040045.54068.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20805.174051.5d2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I am currently in the process of creating my own home
> brew campaign setting (Can you say "Goa'uld of the
> starboard bow!")

I've got some images of stargates (both photos and drawings) and some
fonts with the symbols. I got them courtesy of someone who runs an SG-1
website.

> I could write the software myself but my C++
> compiler won't do random numbers (machine specific
> problem) and I don't yet know enough Java.

What's wrong with BASIC? <g>

The old interpreted QBASIC was still on the disks as of Win 98SE. I
don't know about ME or XP. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 20:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Aug  5 19:35:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <20020806023441.86669.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
I'll repeat myself.  Using the small fleet concept
that Roseberry posted earlier, I would be interested
in running a TL 12 PBEM.

Then we could find out through politics what other
players (representing their governments) think of
things like planetary bombardment, prisoner exchange,
trade embargos, blockades, etc.
END QUOTE

I would be interested. Even though I haven't designed
any military ships before. Can I be the "Evil Empire",
to exercise my sick and twisted imagination (too many
years of playing Vampire:TM) ;)

James


http://digital.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Digital How To
- Get the best out of your PC!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 20:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 19:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <200208060250.MDT01032@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Ramsay says
>I would be interested. Even though I haven't designed
>any military ships before. Can I be the "Evil Empire",
>to exercise my sick and twisted imagination (too many
>years of playing Vampire:TM) ;)
>

I think we have to go with Doug's idea, and take this to 
several levels - some people would be fleet commanders, some 
people would be the politicians, and some people would be the 
First Space Lord (Lord of the Admiralty?).

Also, it would have to be coordinated so all commo went 
through me, so that we could get everyone good and confused.

I was just thinking of things like the Imperial Navy 
Permanent Fighting Instructions...
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 21:07:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 20:07:35 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEMDEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <20020805221551.F25687@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEMDEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <4035.64.8.3.28.1028603214.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

Hello Terry,

> In the playtest for Starships I believe it was stated that you simply
> use a computer program to reconfigure your standard lasers for point
> defense. It is assumed that point defense takes place at very short
> ranges (for space combat.)

When I built lasers for use in my traveller campaign back when first
edition Traveller came out - I built purpose built point defense lasers. 
They didn't have a lot of damaging ability - perfect for civilian use. 
They did however, have a higher rate of fire than normal lasers...



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 21:25:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 20:25:20 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller - more
Message-ID: <d1.1c6715c7.2a8098f4@aol.com>

 >Actually, given some of the other tech, the weapons could be fusion
 >warheads that don't *need* a fission trigger.

I see.  Then (ignoring the fact that this is fantasy technology) I suppose 
that anyone with access to a fusion plant of any size will have access to a 
fusion "nuke" (for lack of another word)?

Book 4 states that the PGMP-13 is powered by a fusion reactor.  I don't 
suppose this would be significantly larger than that on a missile, so how 
much modification would be needed to turn it into a bomb?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 21:26:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 20:26:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: T20 background question
Message-ID: <200208060324.g763OPw20614@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] T20 background question
...
>TL 14 would be the equivalent of TL 15 - the TL of most modern military
>gear. Depending on how long TL 14 had been around, a fair bit of older stuff
>might be TL 14 too.
>
>The counter mix from Invasion Earth might be worth studying. Images of it
>may be available on the Far Futures website.

  Courtesy of the TML RoM TL Flamewar/Debate of 1997 Historical 
Re-enactment Society:

  Feb 19 98
>To: Traveller
>From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>Subject: IM equipment/doctrine
>
>  I was recently flipping through a rather overpriced copy of the
>Regency Vehicle Sourcebook (?), and got the strong impression that
>Imperial Marines were (in TNE, at least) always equipped to the
>best standard, that being 14 or 15 by the Rebellion.
>
>  That all makes sense and is probably an extension of Striker II
>material, but while pawing through the Invasion: Earth counter mix
>I ran across a bunch of TL 12 and 13 Marines. I know that projects
>about Marine history and TO&E's are out there, and I was wondering
>if any ideas had been formed about how this fit IM or IN doctrine,
>or what had changed since 1002.
>
>  As all other units seem to be limited to TL 14, presumably all
>~max. TL Marines were serving with fleet elements continuing the
>offensive beyond Sol system. So it would appear that at least
>until then that the IM had independent Marine regiments (from the
>counters) of lower (12/13) TL for occupation or follow-up duties.
>
>  This assumes that the white Imperial counters with a star for ID
>type are Marines... my copy of FFW went AWOL long ago.
>

        ********   

 Apr 6 98
>To: Traveller
>From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>Subject: I:E commandoes
>
>>>For the record, Inv: Earth gives _both_ sides TL14 troops counters.  The
>>>Imperial forces are broken down as to Regulars, Colonials, etc., but no
>>>such distinction is made for the Solomani counters.  (Exactly why I
>>>stated that the claim that Earth was TL13 was, well, an exaggeration.)
>>
>>   This fits nicely with establish canon.  I'm not sure what the problem
>>is here.  While it is possible that the Imperium and Solomani had some
>>TL 15 commandos or other small elite formations, at the scale the game
>>is conducted, they would not have been a factor in the fighting (or
>>would have been lumped in with a lower tech formation).
>
>  This came up several months ago. However, both commando units (regiment
>-sized raiders) and rules (ignore ZOC's/occupied hexes) are covered, and
>none are TL 15. Also, while Terra can churn out replacement armies at TL
>14, not even a few thousand TL 15 lift infantry kits can be produced.
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 21:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 20:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020806075541.B27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805090845.01831e50@192.168.0.1>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020804223247.0237e008@192.168.0.1>
 <20020804232303.7408.33320.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <006701c23c1f$2baff600$195d8690@computer>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020804223247.0237e008@192.168.0.1>
 <20020805202103.D25687@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020805090845.01831e50@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805225506.02acc008@192.168.0.1>

At 07:55 AM 8/6/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
> > It was determined that published trade rules didn't fit the big picture.
>That may be so, but they are the official rules for the official
>universe.  I agree that variant rules may give variant results.

 From what I recall, the rules for small (100-200 ton) 'tramp' traders.
That is what players typically have (instead of freighters the size of Navy 
Cruisers)
It's been a long time since I looked at the CT rules, and haven't dug into 
the Far Trader rules to the extent you have.

The thread started with how did the die off happen in TNE on Rockballs if 
they grow all their own food.
Someone else has stated that the Virus would play havoc with the local 
greenhouses and such (and gave examples)

I'll take your word that the numbers in Far Trader state that high pop 
rockballs grow all their own food.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vegetarian: An old Indian word that means "lousy hunter."
                www.urbin.net/EWW/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 21:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mosaic Tapestry)
Date: Mon Aug  5 20:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra (WAS: warship optimization in Traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <00fa01c23ced$9eedde60$331df7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <002901c23cfa$9b96b130$2f7de40c@loki>

Fred Ramen shares with us a wonderful comparison of Arbellatra and
Augustus to wit I must say thank you. It is these kinds of analysis,
shared, that reignites my desires to look into parts of the Traveller
universe I had allowed to rest and become dusty.

For those wishing to further explore may I offer these semi-random
links?

http://home.earthlink.net/~nimrodd/LibraryData/A/Arbellatra.htm
http://home.earthlink.net/~nimrodd/LibraryData/C/CivilWar.htm
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw/libdata/ALPHABET/S/soegz.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Matrix/1302/HIWGNZ/I3.html
http://www.ogrecave.com/reviews/darkmoon.shtml
http://www.flash.net/~grazzit/history.html
http://members.cox.net/carlino/Survey.htm
http://www.jtas.org/Software/downloads/megat1.txt
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~iandl57/samson.html
http://www.io.com/~mike_f/RPG/Rumors_of_War/Third_Imperium.html
http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/money.html
http://www.rossmack.com/ab/rpg/traveller/ChartedSpace/BY/BY1104.asp
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~iandl57/tranoii.html
http://www.io.com/~thrash/imperium.html

I did say they were semi-random didn't I? Anyway I had fun collecting
'em hope some of you have fun following them.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 21:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 20:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <159.120df85e.2a809f36@aol.com>

 >> > Army?  What army?
 >> 
 >> I'll believe that when I see it. This sort of talking has always 
 >> turned 
 >> out to be wishful thinking in the past, and I see no reason why it 
 >> isn't now. It's all very well while you're thrashing low-tech 
 >> thrid-
 >> worlders, but sooner or later there'll be another first-world vs 
 >> first-
 >> world scrap, and spec ops teams relying on vast amounts of support 
 >> just 
 >> won't cut it.
 >> 
 >I refer readers to the Fehrenbach quote the opens Chapter 1 of GT:GF.  
 >Words to the effect of (quoted from memory):
 >
 >You may fly over a land forever; you may bomb it, atomize it, sterilize 
 >it and wipe it clean of life; but if you wish to defend it for 
 >civilization, you must do this the way the Romans did, by putting your 
 >young men into the mud.

I would agree.  But as you will observe in Afghanistan (and arguably Serbia) 
they did it by putting someone else's young men into the mud -- and not all 
that many of those.  I seem to remember something along those lines in 
Gibbons ....

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 21:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 20:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller - more
Message-ID: <200208060348.MDV00878@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Flykiller asks
>Book 4 states that the PGMP-13 is powered by a fusion 
>reactor.  I don't suppose this would be significantly larger 
>than that on a missile, so how much modification would be 
>needed to turn it into a bomb?


Take a look at the LANL Magnetized Target Fusion web page.  
Then think about how that could be used as an initiator for a 
fusion weapon - without the traditional fission primary.

The Z-pinch at Sandia is also a possibility, if the power 
conditioning piece can be made small enough.
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 22:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Aug  5 21:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEMDEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEMDEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <1028606767.3d4f4b2fa9269@www.paradise.net.nz>

Quoting Terry Carlino <carlino@cox.net>:

> In the playtest for Starships I believe it was stated that you simply
> use a
> computer program to reconfigure your standard lasers for point defense.
> It
> is assumed that point defense takes place at very short ranges (for
> space
> combat.)

For point-defence lasers using FF&S1 I assumed that you could crank up the RoF 
by lowering the energy per pulse by the requisite amount. As a 200MJ RoF100 
laser (for example) has the same focal array volume as a 50MJ RoF800 laser the 
only inefficiency is in needing a 200MJ HPG. AFAICT being able to install only 
one type of laser makes up for that quite easily.

-- 
Rupert Boleyn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 23:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 22:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Aircraft carrier displacement
Message-ID: <OF2DF9F69F.D7DF6D06-ONCA256C0D.001C4302@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Glenn wrote:
>I was not able to find out the height of the mast and the conning
>tower.  I'll assume that it's half of the keel to mast height.  That
>gives a volume of 335.64 x 39.9 x 38.1 = 510,236m3.  510,236/13.5 =
>37,795 dtons.
>
>The Enterprise is not a rectangular box, of course, so it is possible
>that sloped sides make up for about half of the difference in volume
>between its real shape and that of a rectangular box.

Triangular box, so it should be roughly 1/3 of your figure (~12,500 
dtons). If it's 5/12ths to allow for the larger stern, it comes to 15,750 
dtons. Then add the "island" section.

I'd go with Brian's 18,000-ton figure. Near enough for Daniel's 
"visualisation in my head" work.  ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 23:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Clint Rynners)
Date: Mon Aug  5 22:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <OFAB1B22C2.9545AAF0-ON42256C0D.001E9A8B@ko.com>

John T. Kwon wrote:
"May we assume that the countdown has begun?"

Mr Kwon

I am of the view that we are not going very far as a species until we
manage to get our act together on Earth and solve the seemingly
insurmountable problems - of our own doing - facing us. Even interplanetary
travel on any significant scale is just not going to happen unless we
instigate a paradigm shift in the way we behave towards each other and
towards life in general. Is it unreasonable to assume that any sentient
species that gains control of its environment has to learn to curb
exponential growth and a corresponding exponential increase in the demand
for resources? Only once this hurdle is overcome will the ability to
harness the resources of a single solar system and the ability to travel to
other solar systems be developed. Perhaps I am making sweeping assumptions,
but this seems to be the case with the only example I have to base my views
on.
 Another point to consider is that we are unlikely to encounter an alien
species in the same technological ballpark as us. Given the age of our
galaxy, and the number of times in the past the conditions for life as we
know them have probably occurred, our encounter with an alien species
travelling through interstellar space is probably going to be them
investigating us in the manner that we would investigate an ant-hill. We
would be more of a curiosity than a threat.

Having said all this, Greg Bear's "The Forge of God" and "The Anvil of the
Stars" left me cold. The notion that we have not been contacted by other
species is because they are all doing their best to hide, much like small
creatures in a jungle full of predators. And we are like a dumb little
bird, sitting on a branch chirping away as loudly as possible to all and
sundry. A memorable analogy from the second book, as a remnant of humanity
seeks to punish the species that destroyed the Earth: they were like a fly
(could have been an ant) entering someone's kitchen, intent on revenge.

Your thoughts?

Regards

Clint Rynners



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 23:56:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Clint Rynners)
Date: Mon Aug  5 22:56:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Aircraft carrier displacement
Message-ID: <OFA1CCF309.C0F79DCF-ON42256C0D.0020C815@ko.com>

"Would anyone here know how many displacement tons a
U.S. aircraft carrier like the "Enterprise" would be?"

There is an article in the Shipyard section of Freelance Traveller about
the dtons and the displacement of water-borne vessels.

Regards

Clint Rynners


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 00:06:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Mon Aug  5 23:06:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Woo Hoo Yepieee the IW are coming to town
Message-ID: <3D500FEB.23377.99926E7@localhost>

Copied from JTAS

From:       Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Date:       23:01:47, Aug 05, 2002
Message-ID: 15305
Group:      General Discussion

Interstellar Wars: A New Direction For Traveller Steve Jackson Games is 
pleased to announce that its license to produce a GURPS version of the 
classic science-fiction roleplaying game Traveller has been extended for 
another three years. By agreement with Far Future Enterprises, the 
GURPS Traveller line, as well as the online Journal of the Travellers' Aid 
Society, will continue at least through the end of 2005.

The new license also gives SJ Games the right to open up a new period in 
the distant past of the classic Third Imperium setting. Long before the 
foundation of the Imperium, the Humans of Terra reached the stars for the 
first time, only to find that they were already owned by someone else. 
Centuries of conflict followed, in which the outnumbered Terrans fought for 
their very survival against a vast but decadent alien empire. Now GURPS 
Traveller will examine this crucial time. The first release in the new line, 
GURPS Traveller: The Interstellar Wars, is tentatively scheduled for a 
Summer 2003 release.

"The Interstellar Wars have always been of great interest to Traveller fans," 
said GURPS Traveller Line Editor Jon F. Zeigler. "It's very exciting to have 
the opportunity to develop this period into a setting for epic adventure." 
Marc Miller, creator of Traveller, agreed. "I'm excited about opening a new 
milieu. There's room for a lot of new things here." Senior Line Editor Loren 
Wiseman, long-time Traveller author and editor, remains at the helm of the 
GURPS Traveller product line. He is assisted by Zeigler, and by Graeme 
Davis, editor of the Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society (JTAS).


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 00:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Mon Aug  5 23:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
Message-ID: <20020806021137.13bb35092d5d49ae9344179b452c1788.in@keywest.kennett.net>

Hi,

This probably displays the depths of my ignorance, but can anybody give me a
description of how a unit's change of command ceremony goes?  I am looking
specifically for the US Navy's protocol, but any nation or service is welcomed.

Thanks,

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

 My Sale List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
 My Want List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 01:28:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Tue Aug  6 00:28:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
References: <20020805183149.2742.79211.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D4F7A61.BA9F032E@ameritech.net>

> Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 09:42:43 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> David Shayne <daveshayne@ameritech.net> writes:
> >
> >> Any clues?
> >
> >I couldn't find that info in any TNE source. There are charts for that
> >in "World Builder's Handbook" for MT. Assuming for the moment that you
> >don't have access to that very worthwhile publication I can give you
> >some typical figures from that source.
> >
> >Smallest SGG radius = 20
> >Average SGG radius ~= 60
> >Highest SGG radius = 100
> >
> >Smallest LGG radius = 110
> >Average LGG radius ~= 175
> >Highest LGG radius = 240
> 
> Applying a realism check here, Jupiter, at size 88, is about the limit
> for any sort of gas giant (assuming TNE size is in thousands of miles,
> like CT size).

Yes it is. And yes from a perfect realism standpoint this is wrong.
However probably not hugely broken since the main thing we need to
determine here is the mass and this gives a reasonable number for mass
while still being usable with the same formula as for small rocky worlds
. (like earth) Besides I tend to the view that wherever reality and the
rules are in conflict it's almost always reality that has it wrong.
(With a special thanks to the late Doug Adams.)

> >
> >Lowest GG density = .1
> >Average GG density ~= .21
> >Highest GG density = .3
> 
> Assuming that's g/cc, that's horribly wrong. 

Standard densities. With Earth = 1. Doesn't look so horibly wrong now
does it? 

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 01:44:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug  6 00:44:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
In-Reply-To: <3D4FA627.26089.39E708@localhost>
References: <3D4E5E7E.26225.7DEF71@localhost> <20020806081755.D27684@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D4FA627.26089.39E708@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020806174314.A28821@freeman.little-possums.net>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> No, I forgot to mention that this model can run the sensor and brain 
> for 7 days.

Phew, that's quite a bit better.  You're right about the huge drain
for PEMS though.  Aren't they meant to be *passive* sensors?


> Perhaps a CAPTOR style sensor platform with a number of small missiles 
> on board would be a workable comprimise, though it'd start getting 
> expensive real quick, and it wouldn't be long before most design 
> committees turned it into a small battle-station by adding point 
> defence, etc. I'm sure.

I strongly suspect so, yes.  Trouble is, they'd probably be right :(
Maybe small mines aren't viable in FF&S?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 02:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mosaic Tapestry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 01:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <20020806021137.13bb35092d5d49ae9344179b452c1788.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <000e01c23d20$3c40c240$2f7de40c@loki>

I'm not sure which details are important to you but the essential bit of
a US Army change of command is the transfer of the colors. The outgoing
commander hands the colors to his commanding officer who immediately
hands them to the incoming commander.

A web page of events surrounding such with photo of the act:
http://www.militarymarksmanship.org/hoidahlcoc.htm

A web page of events surrounding such with parade and all:
http://www.afsouth.nato.int/images/change.htm



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 02:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug  6 01:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com> <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com> <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>

Hal wrote:
> List all of the modifiers to gunner's skill you are using in a 
> missile/antimissile engagement.

Pretty similar to yours.  In more detail:

> Skill 12 laser gunner

A reasonable median.  I've been assuming about 9 for civilians who
have weapons but test-fire them more than they use them, up to about
15 for well-trained and experienced military personnel.

> Gunnery +6 to hit program

I generally use a Complexity 8 targeting program for +9 to hit (not
cumulative with Gunnery program).  Civilian ships will have less,
possibly +4.

> ROF bonus +10

I get only +7 RoF bonus per laser, or +8 (maybe +9) for a standard
"triple laser" turret.  Are you grouping them into larger batteries?

> Total modifiers:
> 12+ 32 + 6 + 10 + 10 + 2 - 39 = 72-39 = 32

Pretty close; I get between 24-37 depending upon circumstances; 32 is
fine.


> Rolling an average of 10 on 3d6 means that you will have succeeded by 
> 22.  Number of missiles successfully engaged in that round will be equal to 
> round((22-3)/2,0) or 19/2 rounded up or 10.

It's rather odd to see a turret that fires only 1 shot per 20 seconds
take out 10 missiles in the 15-30 seconds it takes the missiles to
cross the last half-hex, but them's the rules :(

Yes, that's close to the figures I get.


>  Please note that second edition rules for TRAVELLER have bumped up
> the ROF bonus from their current levels to current levels +3.

That's OK, I've got the second edition rules.  Just bought them a
couple of months ago.


> If more than 10 are inbound, he stops 10 and the rest hit.

That's the problem.  Dton-for-dton, there will always be more than 10
incoming missiles per defending turret using any sane launcher and
guidance design.  A million points of impact damage per turret
*really* hurts.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 02:41:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 01:41:04 2002
Subject: [TML] GURPS MISSILE WARFARE (was The big fleet debate)
In-Reply-To: <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

>> Gunnery +6 to hit program
>
> I generally use a Complexity 8 targeting program for +9 to hit (not
> cumulative with Gunnery program).  Civilian ships will have less,
> possibly +4.

The CDI (C Defense Industries) had a showcase of a lot of different types
of low power lasers.  The trade off was that they increased the rate of
fire to get an increase in ROF bonus.  One interesting development was to
build a specialized targeting computer.  Using GURPS rules, it was a
specilized computer getting a +1 complexity bonus for use with a targeting
computer.


>> ROF bonus +10
>
> I get only +7 RoF bonus per laser, or +8 (maybe +9) for a standard
> "triple laser" turret.  Are you grouping them into larger batteries?

The point defense lasers I built could easily attain that ROF bonus. 
Since lasers in a single turret cannot target different targets, most
Point defense scenarios I had were such that you had a triple turret
firing three lasers at its target.  I will see if I can dig up my archived
copy of the point defense lasers.  But +10 is not hard to achieve :)


>> Total modifiers:
>> 12+ 32 + 6 + 10 + 10 + 2 - 39 = 72-39 = 32
>
> Pretty close; I get between 24-37 depending upon circumstances; 32 is
> fine.
>
>
>> Rolling an average of 10 on 3d6 means that you will have succeeded by
>> 22.  Number of missiles successfully engaged in that round will be
>> equal to  round((22-3)/2,0) or 19/2 rounded up or 10.
>
> It's rather odd to see a turret that fires only 1 shot per 20 seconds
> take out 10 missiles in the 15-30 seconds it takes the missiles to
> cross the last half-hex, but them's the rules :(

Minor thoughts: part of that +10 bonus for Point defense comes of the fact
that the missiles attempting to hit you have to come in from a specific
"region".  This region is a relatively small cone that gets smaller the
closer those missiles come to you.  But you are correct.  There should be
a MAX number of targets that can be engaged by a single laser group per
turn equal to the max number of shots a single laser in the grouping and
put out in a turn.


>> If more than 10 are inbound, he stops 10 and the rest hit.
>
> That's the problem.  Dton-for-dton, there will always be more than 10
> incoming missiles per defending turret using any sane launcher and
> guidance design.  A million points of impact damage per turret
> *really* hurts.

Using the concept that the current weapon systems are designed to operate
against the current enemy weapon technology - try using the GURPS
TRAVELLER missile designs first.  Then do an analysis of weapons in the
TRAVELLER universe.  If you can see where there is an improved methodology
for weapons, post it and we can argue the merits and/or improve any
oversights.  I am still flabberghasted that no one ever noticed that the
FAST drug makes a FAR better alternative for cheap travel than does a
freeze tube!

  But that is another story ;)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 03:22:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Aug  6 02:22:04 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
References: <OF2F3C29E3.8D5E3297-ONCA256C0C.0081279C@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <004501c23d2c$34a85e60$d601bd50@martinjd>

>
> Martin replied:
> >>What is the TL of  the Imperium & the Terran Confederation in the
> >>Year 1000 setting of T20?
> >
> >The Impeirum is TL 14 mostly, with Tl 15 just creeping in over the last
> few
> >years.
>
> OK, this one's got me puzzled, I'll give a serious reply now.


Ooops. Sorry "best tech in the Imperium is mostly TL 14, with 15 creeping
in". Average is lower..


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 03:23:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Aug  6 02:23:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump governor
References: <200208060139.MDR00542@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <004a01c23d2c$35f06ec0$d601bd50@martinjd>

> I don't see these in High Guard - IMTU, they don't exist.  If
> a Jump-4 ship jumps 2 parsecs, they only use 2 parsecs worth
> of fuel.
>
> What was the last canon word on this subject, if any?

Marc's last statement (and confirmed to me in a question I asked a while
ago) was that if you have J-3 fuel and you J-1, you only use J1 of fuel up.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 04:07:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Tue Aug  6 03:07:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Taxes
In-Reply-To: <20020805183149.2742.79211.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208061200220.25606-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Anthony Jackson writes:
>In Striker, the implication is that the imperial military tax is simply 1/3
>of the planet's total military expenditure (with another 1/3 going to the
>subsector fleet, so the world only keeps 1/3 for personal forces).

Incorrect. It's 30% of total military expenditure that goes to the
Imperium with 70% retained for local use. The 30% is divided between
regular and subsector forces. I used to be convinced that somewhere I had
seen a canonical statement to the effect that these Imperial military
taxes were split 50/50 between regular and subsector forces (so 15% to
each), but I've been trying to track down the reference for a while with
no luck, so I'm beginning to doubt. Maybe I made it up myself (anyone who
can come up with the reference will earn my undying gratitude ;-).



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 04:20:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug  6 03:20:05 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1028592330.6838.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020806083856.E27684@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1028592330.6838.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020806201901.C28821@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Ok, that's reasonable.  Now, let's look at a point defense system:

> 9 x rE cell, good for 50 shots: 0.09T, $90k

I get $180k, but that doesn't matter much.

> Dedicated Macroframe: 0.25T, $50k, complexity 11

I get $100k and Complexity 10 at TL12.  It's not hardened, but that's
not likely to be a problem except in really unusual situations.


> Targeting +12: $512k (but probably gets a bulk discoute)

I get $256k, and I agree about the bulk discount ;) However, I can
only seem to fit a $128k +11 program in the macroframe.


> with the Vehicles system beam weapons in space have no Acc cap,

However, in the Vehicles rules maximum accuracy bonus is limited to
Gunnery skill, in this case 25.  There's no point in aiming more than
one second.  That gives you a base of 50 (51 since you can miss by one
and still hit).


> The missile is being fired at one second before impact

You'd better make that at least two seconds else the now unguided
missile will still hit your ship.  You need to do a *lot* more damage
to annihilate it.  (In fact, if there are a lot of missiles, you might
find it very hard to dodge all the "dead" ones...)

That doesn't change the basic to-hit number by much, it's 15- instead
of 16-.  Continuing the progression out to the 1/2D limit, I also get
an average of about 8 missiles killed.

It's a good thing I didn't put thermal superconductors in their
armour ;)


> Hm...that's actually worse than I realized.  Oh well, if they send a
> really big swarm of missiles at you simply dump a canister round in
> front of them.

How *big* a canister round?

You need to disable the missiles about 600 miles out, and they will
probably be approaching from a region 200 miles across at that
distance.  Your canister must disperse about ten trillion objects of
sufficient size to reliably disable a missile, just to cut the numbers
in half.

A 20 MJ x-ray pulse is barely enough to penetrate the DR, so I'll use
that to derive an estimate of particle size required.  At 500 km/s,
that works out to a mass of about 0.16 grams, which I will round down
to 0.1 grams to give some benefit of the doubt to the defending side.

Each canister must thus have a mass of about a million tonnes.  You
would actually need a few times that to account for dispersion.


Your countermissile idea was better.  I've designed and played it
using Vehicles rules, and it is a highly reliable system for
intercepting missiles.

It would probably fail horribly when faced with a "silent launch" from
an untracked ship though.  In my Vehicles test of this scenario, most
of the missiles weren't detected until about 10 seconds before impact.
Even with an immediate launch at 30 gees, they couldn't intercept the
missiles at a safe distance.  In such a case, lasers are about the
only option -- and even then, not a good one.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 04:25:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Aug  6 03:25:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
In-Reply-To: <c8.2aaa2ec2.2a794cbe@cs.com>
Message-ID: <20806.014533.9X1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> >That's John Milius.
>> 
>> So it is . . . he still should have directed Starship Troopers.
>> 
>> LKW
>
> Anyone _OTHER_ than Verhoeven should have directed Starship Troopers.

Yeah, but if he directed Red Dawn, he *definitely* makes the short list.


-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 04:39:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug  6 03:39:04 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEMCEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <20020805082530.D24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEMCEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20020806203758.D28821@freeman.little-possums.net>

Terry Carlino wrote:
[2D maps vs 3D maps]
> What has that to do with anything. A det-laser mine that can fire
> across a 10,000 mile hex, can fire across a 10,000 sphere.

The difference is in how many you need.  A typical interplanetary
"traffic lane" would be a few million miles wide (say 5 million).  On
a 2-D map, you only need 500 mines which is expensive but probably
doable.  On a 3D map you need 250,000 -- that's almost certain to
break your budget given how much they cost each.

Note that I'm not saying mines are ineffective in general, I was
commenting in the thread that started with an attacker trying to use
them to destroy interplanetary commerce.  I don't think that will work
well enough to be worthwhile.


> After doing some searching on my hard drive I find that actual range
> is more like 9 hexes, so in a three dimensional game that would be a
> sphere 180,000 miles across.

9 hexes range is a lot better.  You only need about 800 to cover that
traffic lane.  


> I think the best system we came up with was one where the mines were
> controlled by either a controlling sensor platform or a ship. This
> makes the mines smaller and cheaper. The sensors "paint" the target
> for the passive sensors on the mines to pick up.

Yes, that rings a bell.  Again, more effective in 2D than 3D, but
useful for covering the space near a planet or other "small" area.


> Part of the point would be to force ships attempting to traverse the
> area to slow down, use sensors and weapons to clear the mine
> field. This alone would make them detectable to opposing craft.

I've not found detection of enemy craft to be much of a problem in my
test-bed runs.  Usually the side with mines controls the system, sees
the jump flash of any intruder, and can track everything they
subsequently do.

Maybe I'm just lacking battle experience against other people.  Is
avoiding detection by the defender a possibility in most people's
scenarios?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 04:44:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug  6 03:44:04 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <p0433010bb974d90d92ee@[198.123.22.180]>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com> <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net> <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]> <p0433010bb974d90d92ee@[198.123.22.180]>
Message-ID: <20020806204257.E28821@freeman.little-possums.net>

David P. Summers wrote:
> What is the view toward using nukes for point defense?

My first thought would be "Is it worthwhile?"

Politically, I suspect it lies in a murky area.  In practice, I
suspect that the advantages of using nuclear weapons for defense
aren't sufficient to be worth the chance that the other side might
take it as a sign that it's OK for them to use nukes in offense.

I can see very clear advantages to using nukes offensively...


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 04:46:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug  6 03:46:04 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEMDEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <20020805215043.E25687@freeman.little-possums.net> <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEMDEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20020806204412.F28821@freeman.little-possums.net>

Terry Carlino wrote:
> The only reason I can think of is to allow you to self destruct the
> missile if necessary.

Yes, I guess that makes sense.  Thanks :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 05:15:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Tue Aug  6 04:15:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Ad campaign......
Message-ID: <20020806111409.62570.qmail@web11001.mail.yahoo.com>

Just a thought for an InstellArms catalog:

http://www.missilesandfirecontrol.com/our_products/antiarmor.html

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 06:04:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Aug  6 05:04:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
In-Reply-To: <20020806174314.A28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3D4FA627.26089.39E708@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D5063E3.15285.4B7F3E@localhost>

On 6 Aug 2002 at 17:43, Timothy Little wrote:

> Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > No, I forgot to mention that this model can run the sensor and brain 
> > for 7 days.
> 
> Phew, that's quite a bit better.  You're right about the huge drain
> for PEMS though.  Aren't they meant to be *passive* sensors?

Yeah. I think they must use valves in their signal processor, or 
something. :)

> > Perhaps a CAPTOR style sensor platform with a number of small missiles 
> > on board would be a workable comprimise, though it'd start getting 
> > expensive real quick, and it wouldn't be long before most design 
> > committees turned it into a small battle-station by adding point 
> > defence, etc. I'm sure.
> 
> I strongly suspect so, yes.  Trouble is, they'd probably be right :(
> Maybe small mines aren't viable in FF&S?

It depends what for. That first design I posted was only 1 m^3 in 
volume, and would be quite hard to avoid, I think. the 3 G-turns of 
fuel it had is enough to guarantee that it can get into firing position 
of anything that comes within 60,000km or so (a turn in TNE is 30 
minutes, and a hex 30,000km).

By ditching the rocket the volume can be brought down to 0.6 m^3 and 
the cost to MCr1.423 at TL15, but then the mine can only attack craft 
that come into its hex - within 10-15,000km or so. I tried taking off 
the Electromagnetic Masking (EMM), but that didn't save any significant 
space, money or power.

Actually playing around I see that if a fusion reactor of minimum size 
is put in (assuming TL15 that's 0.1 m^3 and 0.6MW) you can still have 
the basic 1 m^3 mine, and about 4 months fuel, with no noticeable 
increase in cost. In fact the limit to performance suddenly bocomes 
surface area on which to mount the PEMS.

Thus:

TL Guidance Vol Mass AV MCr   G-Turns Warhead Hits Damage  Range
15 Full-Ind 1   1.26 3  1.547 3/3     50kt    1D6  1/14-43 0

Comm Sensor Signatures     Asset
10L  1P     +4/+3/+4/+3/+1 4/8

with a duration for the sensor and brain of 4 months.

Or, for a bigger job:

TL Guidance Vol Mass AV MCr   G-Turns Warhead Hits Damage  Range
15 Full-Ind 7   8.48 3  7.434 3/3     500kt   1D6  1/25-79 0

Comm Sensor Signatures     Asset
10L  5P     +4/+3/+4/+3/+1 6/16

This thing has a short range of 150,000km for its PEMS and a maximum of 
1,200,000km and a year's fuel for the fusion plant that powers its 
sensor and brain (the same plant as the little 'um uses, BTW). It has a 
fairly weak motor because it's still got a crappy little EAPlaC solid 
fuel rocket instead of a nice HEPlaR or thruster system. This way it's 
not sensitive to issues version or canon the same way (FWIW).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 06:09:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Aug  6 05:09:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <200208061208.MEL01964@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>I am of the view that we are not going very far as a species 
>until we manage to get our act together on Earth and solve 
>the seemingly insurmountable problems - of our own doing - 
>facing us. Even interplanetary travel on any significant 
>scale is just not going to happen unless we instigate a 
>paradigm shift in the way we behave towards each other and
>towards life in general. Is it unreasonable to assume that 
>any sentient species that gains control of its environment 
>has to learn to curb exponential growth and a corresponding 
>exponential increase in the demand for resources? Only once 
>this hurdle is overcome will the ability to harness the 
>resources of a single solar system and the ability to travel 
>to other solar systems be developed.

This is the Sagan hypothesis - that sufficiently advanced 
alien life forms will have learned to be "peaceful".  There 
is no reason that this has to be so.  If a warlike species 
came to be dominated by a single high tech faction, through 
limited nuclear war and genocidal action, and used this high 
technology to permanently dominate and subjugate its 
population, it would survive its birth into a nuclear age and 
birth into a starfaring age.

Sufficiently advanced technology makes life on an airless 
rockball possible - why would such a species need to preserve 
its wildlife?  

It is simply not logical to conclude that we must get our act 
together in some peaceful manner.  All that is required is 
that we get our act together - and this could be done today 
by the United States, largely through the use of force.  We 
could solve many problems at once - the population problem, 
the poverty of the third world, the source of most terrorists 
around the world, religions that are inimical to US goals, up 
and coming governments that will consume resources to no good 
end - imagine the tyranny of technological might that could 
annihilate several billion people in a few weeks, and spend 
the world's resources on going to the stars.

A peaceful Sagan-like world that ran across a violent world 
where both were capable of building antimatter rockets would 
be annihilated by the violent world in the time it took for 
the rockets to cross the distance.  The peaceful would die 
with startled looks on their faces as the radars showed the 
near-C projectiles coming in.

Scary, isn't it?  But I think that across the stars, this is 
the far more likely scenario.  Sagan was a dreamer, a wishful 
thinker whose idea of transgression was cheating on his wife.

When I see pictures of children overseas holding AK-47s, I 
see a future where alien races are holding antimatter rockets 
and near-C rocks.  Same picture.  It's not a good idea to 
shout, "Here I am!" in a jungle like that.
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 06:21:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 05:21:04 2002
Subject: [TML] GURPS Interstellar Wars
Message-ID: <20020806.081920.-291705.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

Many of you have probably already run across this, but for those who
haven't, check out Evil Stevie's Daily Illuminator
(http://www.sjgames.com/ill/) for the 8/6/02 entry.


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"




________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 07:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Tue Aug  6 06:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] GURPS Interstellar Wars
In-Reply-To: <20020806.081920.-291705.0.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <000601c23d4f$49ec0330$0b01a8c0@duck>

> Many of you have probably already run across this, but for those who
> haven't, check out Evil Stevie's Daily Illuminator
> (http://www.sjgames.com/ill/) for the 8/6/02 entry.

I hadn't see it yet, but it does sound interesting.  The only thing
I hope is that this doesn't mean they are abandoning their alternate
history.

They have just gotten to the cusp of 1120 and actually having history
move forward.  It will be quite disappointing if instead history just
stops at 1120 as they abandon it for the Interstellar Wars.

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 08:41:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Tue Aug  6 07:41:04 2002
Subject: [TML] The cloak
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D1C@USCHM203>

I once ran through the Maxcy dorm parking lot at USC wearing only sneakers
and a Spuds McKenzie beach towel around my neck (yelling "SCIENCE!" at the
top of my lungs for reasons that now escape me)...does that count as wearing
a cloak? 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 10:11:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Aug  6 09:11:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
In-Reply-To: <3D4F7A61.BA9F032E@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028650204.113.ajackson@ping>

David Shayne writes:

> Standard densities. With Earth = 1. Doesn't look so horibly wrong now
> does it? 

Ok, that's not as bad.  

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 10:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Aug  6 09:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <p0433010cb974db4e1b41@[198.123.22.180]>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028650656.7515.ajackson@ping>

David P. Summers writes:

> You are assuming close packed spheres.

Actually, I'm assuming a flat 'shell' of fighters.  Volume covered is actually
third order in range.
> ground per sensor by moveing around).  Also, If you take sensor input 
> from multiple sensors and combine them, it is possible to generate 
> detection of things that couldn't be detected within the range of 
> anyone sensor.

GURPS doesn't really cover array sensors (if you're going to apply that bit of
realism, there's a lot of other realism tweaks you can make as well), but
interferometry really isn't going to help much with deep space detection, as
(a) it mostly improves resolution, not sensitivity, and (b) it massively
reduces coverage, meaning you're likely to miss objects entirely due to looking
in the wrong direction.
 
>  Lastly, the advantage that a fighter gives only its 
> own position, and not that of the capital ship, if it is caught first 
> is non-trivial

If stealth were particularly meaningful or interesting in space, sure.  In
practice, having multiple small ships just guarantees you'll be spotted, due to
other quirks in the sensor rules.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 10:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Aug  6 09:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020806201901.C28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028651185.1051.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:

> > with the Vehicles system beam weapons in space have no Acc cap,
> 
> However, in the Vehicles rules maximum accuracy bonus is limited to
> Gunnery skill, in this case 25.

Nope, the Vehicles rule is that the Acc bonus is not limited by Gunnery skill.

> How *big* a canister round?
> 
> You need to disable the missiles about 600 miles out, and they will
> probably be approaching from a region 200 miles across at that
> distance.

Huh?  At 600 miles, they're 2 seconds out; assuming 12G missiles, they can
travel up to 240 meters in that time, which means all the missiles need to be
within an area that small.  Assuming a missile is 0.3 meters across, I need to
set up a cloud of about a million objects.  At 300 miles per second, a 1mm
warhead does 6dx110 (which will oneshot missiles), so a 250mm warhead
(equivalent to a single missile) should be able to scatter on the order of 15
million bead, which is plenty to cover the required area at a high level of
reliability.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 10:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 09:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <74.20e88a02.2a814935@aol.com>

--part1_74.20e88a02.2a814935_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Now that our good news is out in the public, it might be a good time to 
mention
that I've set up a Yahoo! discussion group for current and potential GURPS
Traveller freelancers. The home page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gtfreelance/

This isn't the *only* channel one can use to get information to and from me,
to be sure -- email to jon@sjgames.com works fine too! Still, I hope to use 
the
discussion group to help get news out and to work with authors to plan future
releases. If you're interested in writing for GURPS Traveller, you're more 
than
welcome to sign on.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

--part1_74.20e88a02.2a814935_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Now that our good news is out in the public, it might be a good time to mention
<BR>that I've set up a Yahoo! discussion group for current and potential GURPS
<BR>Traveller freelancers. The home page is at:
<BR>
<BR>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gtfreelance/
<BR>
<BR>This isn't the *only* channel one can use to get information to and from me,
<BR>to be sure -- email to jon@sjgames.com works fine too! Still, I hope to use the
<BR>discussion group to help get news out and to work with authors to plan future
<BR>releases. If you're interested in writing for GURPS Traveller, you're more than
<BR>welcome to sign on.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_74.20e88a02.2a814935_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 10:33:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 09:33:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <74.20e88a02.2a814935@aol.com>

--part1_74.20e88a02.2a814935_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Now that our good news is out in the public, it might be a good time to 
mention
that I've set up a Yahoo! discussion group for current and potential GURPS
Traveller freelancers. The home page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gtfreelance/

This isn't the *only* channel one can use to get information to and from me,
to be sure -- email to jon@sjgames.com works fine too! Still, I hope to use 
the
discussion group to help get news out and to work with authors to plan future
releases. If you're interested in writing for GURPS Traveller, you're more 
than
welcome to sign on.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

--part1_74.20e88a02.2a814935_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Now that our good news is out in the public, it might be a good time to mention
<BR>that I've set up a Yahoo! discussion group for current and potential GURPS
<BR>Traveller freelancers. The home page is at:
<BR>
<BR>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gtfreelance/
<BR>
<BR>This isn't the *only* channel one can use to get information to and from me,
<BR>to be sure -- email to jon@sjgames.com works fine too! Still, I hope to use the
<BR>discussion group to help get news out and to work with authors to plan future
<BR>releases. If you're interested in writing for GURPS Traveller, you're more than
<BR>welcome to sign on.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_74.20e88a02.2a814935_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 10:36:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 09:36:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <74.20e88a02.2a814935@aol.com>

--part1_74.20e88a02.2a814935_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Now that our good news is out in the public, it might be a good time to 
mention
that I've set up a Yahoo! discussion group for current and potential GURPS
Traveller freelancers. The home page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gtfreelance/

This isn't the *only* channel one can use to get information to and from me,
to be sure -- email to jon@sjgames.com works fine too! Still, I hope to use 
the
discussion group to help get news out and to work with authors to plan future
releases. If you're interested in writing for GURPS Traveller, you're more 
than
welcome to sign on.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

--part1_74.20e88a02.2a814935_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Now that our good news is out in the public, it might be a good time to mention
<BR>that I've set up a Yahoo! discussion group for current and potential GURPS
<BR>Traveller freelancers. The home page is at:
<BR>
<BR>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gtfreelance/
<BR>
<BR>This isn't the *only* channel one can use to get information to and from me,
<BR>to be sure -- email to jon@sjgames.com works fine too! Still, I hope to use the
<BR>discussion group to help get news out and to work with authors to plan future
<BR>releases. If you're interested in writing for GURPS Traveller, you're more than
<BR>welcome to sign on.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_74.20e88a02.2a814935_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 10:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Aug  6 09:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15E5@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

What about artists?  ;)
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: JFZeigler@aol.com [mailto:JFZeigler@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 8:46 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .


Now that our good news is out in the public, it might be a good time to mention 
that I've set up a Yahoo! discussion group for current and potential GURPS 
Traveller freelancers. The home page is at: 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gtfreelance/ 

This isn't the *only* channel one can use to get information to and from me, 
to be sure -- email to jon@sjgames.com works fine too! Still, I hope to use the 
discussion group to help get news out and to work with authors to plan future 
releases. If you're interested in writing for GURPS Traveller, you're more than 
welcome to sign on. 

---------- 
Jon F. Zeigler 
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller 
jon@sjgames.com 
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events." 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 11:33:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Aug  6 10:33:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The big fleet debate
Message-ID: <20020806173248.66761.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>

>What is the view toward using nukes for point defense?  Is it OK 
>since it is "defensive"?  I think the Imperium wouldn't allow it 
>(why do you have a nuke in the first place?) and it would only
>matter for fleet battles anyway...  So it would come down to any
>agreements, unspoken or otherwise, between the major powers (Impies
>vs Zhos, Impies vs Solos, Hivers vs the K'Kree) and whether it is
>seen as provoking retaliation.

I think you're mixing apples and oranges a little there.  Here are
the categories I see:

I. War between Imperial member states
A. On a world:  Possession or use of nuclear weapons for any purpose
will trigger Imperial intervention.  The underlying reason is that
any use of nuclear weapons, offensive or defensive, will irreparably
harm the world.
B. In space:  Nuclear weapons are allowed, but only limited commerce
raiding is allowed.  

II.  War between the Imperium and another state:  Anything goes, as
there is no general convention on warfare.  The objectives of the
warring parties determine how destructive they will be.  A state
seeking to take territory from another is unlikely to render the
target territory valueless.  A state seeking to create a buffer
between itself and a neighbor may think that a swath of dead and
barren systems is the best defense, but, on the other hand, may think
that thriving, independent systems are better.  

If one state starts destroying the surfaces of another's worlds, it
must accept that the other state will be able to jump past its
defenses and destroy the surface of its worlds as well.  There is
something of a balance of terror among the major states.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 11:40:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Aug  6 10:40:14 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Arbellatra
Message-ID: <20020806173952.59128.qmail@web20418.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Fred Ramen" <von_rammen@msn.com>

>My interpretation may also explain her meteoric rise to high command

>at such a young age--perhaps her title of Grand Admiral of the
>Marches was a ceremonial one, or rank was determined by noble
>standing to a much greater degree in the antebellum Imperium. 
>(Indeed, perhaps Arbellatra reformed the military to make it more
>egalitarian, not only to prevent a rival from rising in a fashion 
>like her own, but to insure loyalty to the Emperor and the Imperium 
>and not the individual commander, as seems to be the case with
>Plankwell and the other Emperors of the Flag.)

A few years ago (maybe more than a few -- I think it was 1996 or so),
I posted an idea to the TML that the antebellum Imperial Navy
followed a feudal model, in which warships, squadrons, and fleets
were in effect fiefs.  The Admiral was also a Duke, and was
responsible for raising the fleet, which meant paying for it.  His or
her Counts were commodores, his Marquises captains, and so on.  Thus
every crew member was a vassal owing loyalty to his or her commanding
officer.  One of Arbellatra's principal reforms was to develop a
professional navy, better suited to defending against ihatei and
Zhodani than fighting over the crown.

--Glenn


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 12:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Aug  6 11:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <20020806180404.28551.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng)

>This probably displays the depths of my ignorance, but can anybody 
>give me a description of how a unit's change of command ceremony
>goes?  I am looking specifically for the US Navy's protocol, but any
>nation or service is welcomed.

I had the good fortune to watch my high school friend Col. Steven R.
Corbett, U.S.A., assume command of the 91st support something or
other brigade at Fort Lewis, Washington, on 14 September 2001.  The
ceremony went something like this:

At the parade ground, seats had been set up under awnings on either
side of the reviewing stand.  The reviewing stand had a podium and
microphone, and there were big speakers somewhere.  

The guests, military and civilian, took seats at their own pace.  The
military personnel were wearing camouflage; the civilians dressed
casually.  I didn't see anyone in a dress uniform that day.  

The members of the brigade formed up in units on the parade ground. 
There were eight or ten units, each with its commanding officer in
front.  There were about 100 people in each unit, suggesting that the
units were companies.  

A mid-level officer (hereinafter the MC) opened the ceremonies by
welcoming everyone and announcing the national anthem.  We stood
while a recording of the national anthem played.  At some point
around then, the color guard marched onto the parade ground from the
audience's left, stopping and facing right at the reviewing stand. 
The colors included the national flag, the brigade's flag, and two
other unit flags (I think of subordinate units within the brigade).  

The base commander had a few remarks to welcome Col. Corbett and wish
the best for his retiring predecessor (whose name I have forgotten). 
The outgoing and incoming commanders then gave brief speeches; I
don't recall who went first.  Then the outgoing commander took the
incoming commander on an inspection of the formation.  They walked
around the entire unit clockwise while martial music played.  No,
they did not play the Liberty Bell March, although those of us in the
audience who had gone to high school together were expecting it.

During the inspection, the MC gave us a little background on the
medieval origins of the inspection.  

When the inspection was completed, the outgoing CO asked Col. Corbett
if he accepted the brigade, and Col. Corbett said that he did.  Then
the brigade's senior NCO and the base commander came out onto the
parade ground and passed the unit flag around as the four of them
stood in a circle.  If I recall correctly, the base commander passed
the flag to the senior NCO, who passed it to the outgoing CO, who
passed it to the new CO, who passed it back to the senior NCO.  The
flagpole crossed each CO's heart, signifying his willingness to give
his life for the unit and to do his utmost for its welfare.  

Then the color guard took back the flags, and the four guys returned
to the reviewing stand.  The base commander had a few closing
remarks, and then they played martial music as the color guard left
the field, followed by each of the other units.  

Then all of the military personnel went back to work.  Early in the
evening, the new CO threw a big barbecue at his house on post, and we
all ate and drank too much.

--Glenn



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 12:50:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Donald McKinney)
Date: Tue Aug  6 11:50:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Cleon V (was Arbellatra)
Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E03668975@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com>

--=_IS_MIME_Boundary
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

Actually, much more interesting than Arbellatra, is her direct predecessor, Cleon V.

Cleon V appointed Arbellatra to the troublesome position as Grand Admiral of the Marches, restored Imperial rule over the Sylean Core region, and basically, restored Imperial rule - except that a few Admirals and Nobles weren't ready for it yet, and they betrayed him.

Arbellatra's shoving Gustus off the throne is totally legitimate, as she's simply fulfilling her role as Cleon V's last supporter. 

Interestingly enough, a few years ago I wrote a brief document for my personal use, entertaining the notion that Arbellatra was Cleon V's naval attache, companion and close personal friend, that sending her to the Marches was because he truly felt that the Marches would need the best commander he could send against the Zhodani, and that when Arbellatra returned to the Core, it was all the anger of a lover that pushed her to do it.  I also explained the elevation of Archduke Soegz as the replacement of one of Emperor Joseph's (the man who defeated Cleon V, I hope I'm remembering right) backers...

The minute the Zhodani and Vargr were defeated and capable nobles in place to hold against them (like the Marquis of Regina), she turned her forces around and went back to Core...

I also used a Dreadnought named the "Cleon V" as the Corridor Fleet's flagship :)


DonM.

--__--__--

Message: 8
From: "Fred Ramen" <von_rammen@msn.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 22:03:33 -0400
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra (WAS: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes:

"Dibs Arbellatra.  One of my favorite people in Traveller history.  Someday
I'd love to write a sourcebook for the Arbellatra Regency."

Aye, mine too. Such a book might finally answer the question of just what
kind of leader she was.

IMHO, the model for Arbellatra is Augustus--not Julius--Caesar. That is, she
was more a illiant politician than a brilliant general. I base this on a few
factors:

1) She essentially lost the 2FW but still managed to declare victory and
mobilize the Marches behind her. (Remember, the Imperium ceded territory to
the Zhodani after the war, and Library Data mentions that the final
engagement resulted in a "stalemate" between the two sides. She basically
one the war the same way the U.S. "won" the War of 1812--by not losing as
badly as expected.)

2) It seems doubtful to me that even after a decade of civil war her
provincial fleet could cow the Vland Sector Fleet--yet she must have had the
cooperation of Vland sector, as others have pointed out, in order to
triumph. Again, this demonstrates her political acumen.

3) Her masterly stroke of refusing the crown is remarkably similar to
Augustus' own "retirement" from government--while in truth retaining a firm
grip on the reins of power. (The people of Rome demanded at one point that
he publish a list of candidates he favored, so they would know who to vote
for--not from coercion, but from a devotion to Augustus.)

My interpretation may also explain her meteoric rise to high command at such
a young age--perhaps her title of Grand Admiral of the Marches was a
ceremonial one, or rank was determined by noble standing to a much greater
degree in the antebellum Imperium. (Indeed, perhaps Arbellatra reformed the
military to make it more egalitarian, not only to prevent a rival from
rising in a fashion like her own, but to insure loyalty to the Emperor and
the Imperium and not the individual commander, as seems to be the case with
Plankwell and the other Emperors of the Flag.)

Fred "Arbellatra Divina" Ramen
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 12:51:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Tue Aug  6 11:51:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Landgrab
References: <B9742E4B.68481%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000201c23d7a$64a16b40$b300a8c0@imogen>

Does anyone have (or know of) some software  or  spreadsheet  for
creating ground vehicles using MT rules?  I need to create  about
a dozen different military vehicles for my Efate landgrab.

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 12:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Burns)
Date: Tue Aug  6 11:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
Message-ID: <20020806185605.50939.qmail@web10605.mail.yahoo.com>

I've been following this thread with some interest and
wondering if I should throw in my .02 crimps or not.
The reason for my interest is I'm in a PBEM TNE game
where we were given a few (24 ISTR) mines by our
handlers. So I went here:

http://www.downport.com/bard/bard/bardvera.html

and scrolling down to section 6500 - Satellites
checked out the mines and boosters listed there. I
never thought to check that the design was solid but
it looks good enough.

Anyway, given our mission and limited mines, I'm
thinking we'll use them one of two ways.

First as pursuit deterrents (drop one or two to drift
back along our vector and either the purser takes fire
and/or must manuever around buying us time to get
away. I'm trusting that even if he does spot one a
commander has to assume there may be more, and if one
blows up in his face same thing.

Second as 'debris' around any sensitive sights we find
to secure it till we get back, or to protect our
report drops till they are picked up by the courier,
who will have the disarming codes too.

I'm just getting back into TNE after a lot of years so
I still have to check the sensor rules but at least in
TNE I think spotting these things is going to be very
tough. Unlike GT where it seems you can spot those
nasty c-rocks at a few parsecs while they are ramped
up to speed, note the entry to j-space and be waiting
for the emergence a week later which will also show up
easily, right in the middle of your defence solution.
Oops, a rant? Well at least 'twas short ;)

Dan "far-trader" Burns

______________________________________________________________________ 
Post your ad for free now! http://personals.yahoo.ca

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:02:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:02:04 2002
Subject: [TML] J-4 X-boats, a justification
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEBGILAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Many people argue about many aspects of the X boat system,
saying that there are some less then optimal chooses in it's
makeup.

This is one possible argument in keeping the J-4 aspect to the
system.  The Xboat system is a part of a communication's system
designed with military and official communications in mind.  While
postal unions and private merchants carry cargo of one type or
another as mail, a great deal of information is carried in electronic
form.  Getting information to a patrolling cruisron, informing
a Marine TF that their services are needed, relaying the answer to
a question of Gribble Bugs in the Groats are things that need to
relayed to worlds off the Xboat network.  To do this regular off
the rack Type 's' scouts are employed,  By spacing Xboat stations no more
then jump four apart, a message can be broadcast to all worlds along a
Xboat trunk in one shot.  With communications delays as long as they
are already leaving holes in between xboat stations that require an
extra week or two to reach outlying badly compromised to utility of the
system.

I see an X boat station as a headquarters, a ground based station, the
assigned tenders and Xboats, and a flock of regular scouts assigned to the
station, in theory with enough scout to reach all systems within range in
one
shot, more likely with enough to hit all type C or better ports, important
installations and systems the navy says are likely to hold units on patrol.
At the same time a number of boats also float between systems, trying to
hit all systems or a frequent basis.  these are the boat that are routinely
performing donation studies, re surveys, update investigations and so forth.

these are the boats that are slated to end up in detached scout's hands,
having served as front line scouts then courier scout already.



________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:23:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:23:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Ok, now what
Message-ID: <200208061922.MEZ12591@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

First I keep reading that plasma weapons are not possible - 
the bolt would dissipate a short distance from the barrel.  
And now, at the tail end of the following article, 

http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/channel_awst.jsp?
view=story&id=news/aw080524.xml

I read that a plasma weapon is possible.
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:39:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:39:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <0964D40E.1498BB17.02280B06@aol.com>

Okay, that was strange.

I actually sent three *different* messages to the TML this
morning, and what appeared was three copies of the same
message. Fortunately, that was the only message that
absolutely had to get out, so no harm done. Go figure.

Thanks for your patience, everyone.

---------- 
Jon F. Zeigler 
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller 
jon@sjgames.com 
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:42:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:42:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Airsoft shooter
Message-ID: <B9757480.689C1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

I need to get educated about airsoft guns.  Any airsoft enthusiasts on the
tml, please contact me off list if you don't mind answering some stupid
questions.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:44:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:44:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra (WAS: warship optimization in traveller
 CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <00fa01c23ced$9eedde60$331df7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020806113510.45efd91c@pop.mindspring.com>

At 10:03 PM 8/5/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes:
>
>"Dibs Arbellatra.  One of my favorite people in Traveller history.  Someday
>I'd love to write a sourcebook for the Arbellatra Regency."
>
>Aye, mine too. Such a book might finally answer the question of just what
>kind of leader she was.

Focusing on Core during the Regency would be a big factor.  Starting at the
refusal of the crown, with pretenders and factions still fighting, to her
gracious assumption of the title of Empress.  A great deal happened in the
seven years between 622 and 629.

>IMHO, the model for Arbellatra is Augustus--not Julius--Caesar. That is, she
>was more a illiant politician than a brilliant general. I base this on a few
>factors:

Good model.  I was thinking a bit of Hitler, personally.  Same kind of
personal magnetism.

>1) She essentially lost the 2FW but still managed to declare victory and
>mobilize the Marches behind her. (Remember, the Imperium ceded territory to
>the Zhodani after the war, and Library Data mentions that the final
>engagement resulted in a "stalemate" between the two sides. She basically
>one the war the same way the U.S. "won" the War of 1812--by not losing as
>badly as expected.)

This might have come from misunderstanding Zhodani war goals.  Arbellatra
probably knew from the start that the Zhodani wanted to remove the Imperium
from Zhodani territory, not destroy the Imperium.  But playing up the image
of the Zho's as barbarians helped her cause.  A draw was as good as a
victory to her.

>2) It seems doubtful to me that even after a decade of civil war her
>provincial fleet could cow the Vland Sector Fleet--yet she must have had the
>cooperation of Vland sector, as others have pointed out, in order to
>triumph. Again, this demonstrates her political acumen.

She had a good line.  In this aspect, she's much like St. Jean d'Arc.  The
"Maid of Mora" driving to restore the Imperium!  She would find ready
converts in Deneb and Corridor. She probably played a different game with
the Vilani.  Promises of increased power in the court, culminating with her
son's marriage to a Vilani noblewoman in 679.  As she drew closer to
Capital, I'm sure that pretender fleets defected en masse rather than face
annihilation.

>3) Her masterly stroke of refusing the crown is remarkably similar to
>Augustus' own "retirement" from government--while in truth retaining a firm
>grip on the reins of power. (The people of Rome demanded at one point that
>he publish a list of candidates he favored, so they would know who to vote
>for--not from coercion, but from a devotion to Augustus.)

It is her that I am of two minds..  I sort of like the idea that she
honestly meant to find a surviving Zhunastu heir; only taking the throne
when that proved impossible.

>My interpretation may also explain her meteoric rise to high command at such
>a young age--perhaps her title of Grand Admiral of the Marches was a
>ceremonial one, or rank was determined by noble standing to a much greater
>degree in the antebellum Imperium. (Indeed, perhaps Arbellatra reformed the
>military to make it more egalitarian, not only to prevent a rival from
>rising in a fashion like her own, but to insure loyalty to the Emperor and
>the Imperium and not the individual commander, as seems to be the case with
>Plankwell and the other Emperors of the Flag.)

"Nothing succeeds like success" they say.  I've always sensed that along
with being politically brilliant, she was possibly the greatest strategic
and tactical mind the Imperium ever saw.  She was only 28 when the war
broke out, according to canon.  I'd prefer to push her date of birth back
to 567, making her 48 at the beginning of the war.  This at least gives her
the age to have had a fairly long career and been at least an experienced
Captain or junior Admiral.  This would, IMHO, make her seizure of the
fleets far more acceptable.  No one is going to listen to a pup of a Ltd.
Commander.

I think the title of Grand Admiral was given to her for no better reason
than she knew how to fight.  Look at all the generals that Lincoln broke
before finding Grant. She demonstrated the ability to win.  Before that,
the post maybe had been more political, but consider the event of the 1FW,
I somehow doubt it.  The Marches had just been cursed with a string of bad
leaders.

Wit my revised birth year, she is now 48 when the 2FW breaks out, 53 when
it ends.  She had to leave before the end of the war, since she defeats
Gustus in 622.  Have her, and a small fleet leave in late 618, leaving the
war to a trusted group of under commanders.  The history is murky here.
Perhaps the Zhodani were broken by mid-618, and the last ~18 months were
mopping up and retaking worlds?

She arrives in the Core no later than early 621, when a large armada. Along
the way, she defeats several pretenders, and forces a battle with Gustus at
the Second Battle of Zhimaway.  Proceeding to Capital, she declares herself
regent in late 622, at the age of 55.  Becomes Empress in 629 at 62, Dies
in 666 at 99.  Marries late, first son born in 624.

Does this time line work for people?
-- 

Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.
gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html

Author of GT: Ground Forces                               

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:45:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:45:49 2002
Subject: [TML] GURPS Interstellar Wars
In-Reply-To: <20020806.081920.-291705.0.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020806113717.35e7dade@pop.mindspring.com>

At 08:19 AM 8/6/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>Many of you have probably already run across this, but for those who
>haven't, check out Evil Stevie's Daily Illuminator
>(http://www.sjgames.com/ill/) for the 8/6/02 entry.

Note to self:  Check the author solicitation page when the good computer
gets home today...

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:47:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:47:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNGEMBEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <3.0.5.16.20020805112347.358f6ef0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020806114206.364f75c8@pop.mindspring.com>

At 08:57 PM 8/5/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>>Here's a fun game to play if you have Ground Forces.  You are a Force
>>Lieutenant assigned to a Caen-class ship.  You are lying in your bunk, and
>>feeling a bit peckish.  How do you get to the officer's mess?  :)

>Let me start by saying I absolutely love 95% of Ground Forces. I think the
>colors great. I like everything from the unit structure information, to the
>battledress designs, to the modular grav design system.

Thanks, and a tip'o the helmet to David Pulver for the MVD system.

>The one thing I can't stand is the ship designs. I loath the Caen. Among
>other problems: Where are the navy ratings bunked? They certainly wouldn't
>be with the Marines, not since the rest of canon says that they should be
>living in staterooms, which I would suppose are separate from the officer's
>staterooms. I could go on and on about the failings of the design, but I
>don't want to rant.

I have problems with the Caen deckplans myself.  It was designed as a very
"close" ship, and I did put in that the rest of the Navy thinks the crews
that work the Caens are oddballs.  If you have an improved design, I'd love
to see it.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:49:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:49:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15E5@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020806114452.35e793a8@pop.mindspring.com>

At 09:43 AM 8/6/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>What about artists?  ;)

Back in your hole, polygon boy!  When we want something from you, we'll do
the usual thing.  Toss a contract and art specs in your cage and pray you
don't ruin our finely crafted prose with your "art."

:)
-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of
limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:50:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:50:57 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  The cloak
In-Reply-To: <20020806004801.59831.qmail@web20422.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020806114720.4637dd7c@pop.mindspring.com>

At 05:48 PM 8/5/2002 -0700, you wrote:

>ca. 1100s, they are in fashion at the Imperial court, and therefore
>commonly worn by nobles everywhere.  Commoners only wear them when
>the weather demands it.

I'd think that fashion would trickle down, and you see knock-offs of famous
designers and K-Martish places with their own lines.

IMTU, they're common.  Useful things, cloaks.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:52:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:52:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <159.120df85e.2a809f36@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020806115248.35e748b0@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:40 PM 8/5/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>I would agree.  But as you will observe in Afghanistan (and arguably Serbia) 
>they did it by putting someone else's young men into the mud -- and not all 
>that many of those.  I seem to remember something along those lines in 
>Gibbons ....

That army was just laying there...

Seriously, from our point of view, Afghanistan was as close to a perfect
situation as you can get.  All we had to do was provide air & logisitcal
support, and the population in the are being attacked wasn't too thrilled
with the current government.  They all aren't going to be that way.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:53:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:53:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <20020806021137.13bb35092d5d49ae9344179b452c1788.in@keywest
 .kennett.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020806120321.46dfdc16@pop.mindspring.com>

At 02:13 AM 8/6/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>Hi,
>
>This probably displays the depths of my ignorance, but can anybody give me a
>description of how a unit's change of command ceremony goes?  I am looking
>specifically for the US Navy's protocol, but any nation or service is
welcomed.

Well, from my point of view, an Army change of command ceremony (c. 1985)
consists of the following:

1. Polish brass.

2. Drop off dress greens at dry cleaners.

3. Hear that the order has been changed, we'll be in battle gear.

4. Curse about blowing $15 on dry cleaning.

5. Drop off good BDUs at dry cleaners.  (Good meaning these puppies will
never see the field, and are worn only for inspections.)

6. Pay some kid at the PX ten bucks to spit shine my jump boots.

7. Run to Ranger Joe's for clean TA-50 pieces.

8. Get haircut.

9. Practise marching.

10. Get assigned to be a roadgaurd again, due to lack of marching ability.

11. Get inspected.

12. March to Brigade parade ground.

13. Stand in formation.

14. Old Bastard makes a speech.

15. Wonder what difference all this marching will make when the Soviets
come over the border.

16. Something involving the unit colors, but you can't see.

17. New Bastard makes a speech.  Officers love to make speeches.

18. Fall asleep at attention.

19. Wake up at Parade Rest.

20. March back to barracks, replace dart board picture of Old Bastard with
New Bastard, get drunk.

(I'm in a silly mood today.)
-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Animals who are not penguins can only wish they were.
-Chicago reader, 10/15/82

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:55:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:55:14 2002
Subject: [TML] The cloak
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D1C@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020806120600.46dfd798@pop.mindspring.com>

At 10:40 AM 8/6/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>I once ran through the Maxcy dorm parking lot at USC wearing only sneakers
>and a Spuds McKenzie beach towel around my neck (yelling "SCIENCE!" at the
>top of my lungs for reasons that now escape me)...does that count as wearing
>a cloak? 

No, but it will count against you at the commitment hearing...
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"Genetically" we are nearly identical to fruit flies.  On the
other hand, as a species we write better string quartets. 
				- Rich Clancey


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:57:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:57:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <2BD831D2.5F2F4C54.02280B06@aol.com>

> What about artists?  ;)

Hey, Jesse. Artists are more than welcome to join the
Yahoo! group too, although you should be aware that art
is Not My Department. Any queries about art for the GT
line will probably end up being passed along to other
people at SJG.

---------- 
Jon F. Zeigler 
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller 
jon@sjgames.com 
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:59:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:59:11 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
References: <200208061208.MEL01964@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D50270F.5080001@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:

> This is the Sagan hypothesis - that sufficiently advanced 
> alien life forms will have learned to be "peaceful".  There 
> is no reason that this has to be so.  If a warlike species 
> came to be dominated by a single high tech faction, through 
> limited nuclear war and genocidal action, and used this high 
> technology to permanently dominate and subjugate its 
> population, it would survive its birth into a nuclear age and 
> birth into a starfaring age.

Give the history of such factions here, I rather doubt that this is the 
case. If these sentients are anything like humans, they do not have the 
infinite capacity for evil you presuppose.

Humans have proven to be very good at routing around opression, and 
eroding it from it's weak points.

Even the total police states of Romania and East Germany fell, sometimes 
in a matter of *weeks*, once the Soviet threat was shown to be hollow. 
As brutal as the Sucuritat was, and the fact htat they had pretty much 
co-opted the entire Romanian population into their web of informants, 
they dissolved into a scattering of scared bullies, trying to outrun the 
lynch mobs.

Rome *was* a high-tech faction that ruled through genocidal action (when 
needed) It's hegemony lasted only a few hundred years, and then only 
over a rather small area of the world.

Your *perfect evil dictator* is unlikely to ever exist. Whilst they 
might make for pretty tale in SF novels, the history of our planet 
towards such hegemony does not support this.

High-tech communications almost guarantees this...look at the struggles 
opressive regimes here have with the now humble fax machine, let alone 
the internet.

A regime that had such total control over information would unlikely be 
able to manage the technologicical advances needed to get much beyond LEO.

You cannot simultaneously restrict the flow of information and maintain 
a growing 'research economy', any more than you can manage a monetaryu 
economy the same way. (The other reason the Soviets fell)

After all, who won the race to the moon?

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:01:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (markc@peak.org)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:01:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <18690-22002826195016420@M2W075.mail2web.com>

Jesse DeGraff <Jesse=2EDeGraff@netapp=2Ecom> writes:

> What about artists?  ;)

Sure, why not?  Do you know any? >^)

    - Mark C=2E

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:03:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:03:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15EC@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

No more grav tanks you Penguin Boy ;)

And that should read:
"When we want something from you, we'll do the usual thing.  *At the last minute,* toss a contract and, *if you're lucky*, art specs in your cage and pray you don't ruin our finely crafted prose with your "art."

Jesse


-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas E. Berry [mailto:gridlore@pop.mindspring.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 4:45 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .


At 09:43 AM 8/6/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>What about artists?  ;)

Back in your hole, polygon boy!  When we want something from you, we'll do
the usual thing.  Toss a contract and art specs in your cage and pray you
don't ruin our finely crafted prose with your "art."

:)
-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of
limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:06:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:06:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15EE@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Gee, ALL the clowns are coming out of the woodwork ;)  BTW, is the December shoot going to happen?
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: markc@peak.org [mailto:markc@peak.org]
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 12:50 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .


Jesse DeGraff <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> writes:

> What about artists?  ;)

Sure, why not?  Do you know any? >^)

    - Mark C.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:08:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:08:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020806120321.46dfdc16@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020806200438.2448.qmail@web11004.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
wrote:
> At 02:13 AM 8/6/2002 -0400, you wrote:
> >Hi,
> >
> >This probably displays the depths of my ignorance,
> but can anybody give me a
> >description of how a unit's change of command
> ceremony goes?  I am looking
> >specifically for the US Navy's protocol, but any
> nation or service is
> welcomed.
> 
> Well, from my point of view, an Army change of
> command ceremony (c. 1985)
> consists of the following:
> 
> 1. Polish brass.
> 
> 2. Drop off dress greens at dry cleaners.
> 
> 3. Hear that the order has been changed, we'll be in
> battle gear.
> 
> 4. Curse about blowing $15 on dry cleaning.
> 
> 5. Drop off good BDUs at dry cleaners.  (Good
> meaning these puppies will
> never see the field, and are worn only for
> inspections.)
> 
> 6. Pay some kid at the PX ten bucks to spit shine my
> jump boots.
> 
> 7. Run to Ranger Joe's for clean TA-50 pieces.
> 
> 8. Get haircut.
> 
> 9. Practise marching.
> 
> 10. Get assigned to be a roadgaurd again, due to
> lack of marching ability.
> 
> 11. Get inspected.
> 
> 12. March to Brigade parade ground.
> 
> 13. Stand in formation.
> 
> 14. Old Bastard makes a speech.
> 
> 15. Wonder what difference all this marching will
> make when the Soviets
> come over the border.
> 
> 16. Something involving the unit colors, but you
> can't see.
> 
> 17. New Bastard makes a speech.  Officers love to
> make speeches.
> 
> 18. Fall asleep at attention.
> 
> 19. Wake up at Parade Rest.
> 
> 20. March back to barracks, replace dart board
> picture of Old Bastard with
> New Bastard, get drunk.
> 
> (I'm in a silly mood today.)
> -- 
> 
> Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
>   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
> 
  >>
  Yeah....but your memory is about as good as mine. 

  OTOH, if it wasn't for my dazzling marching skills,
I'd have never gotten out of so much work.....that,
and the fact that I jumped to voluteer for it, knowing
in advance that selections were being made for mess
duty that day.......

  Michael "Hide & Slide" Cessna
  Box-kicker Supreme
  >>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:14:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:14:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020806113510.45efd91c@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <3.0.5.16.20020806113510.45efd91c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m3u1m7oie8.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes:

> She was only 28 when the war broke out, according to canon.  I'd
> prefer to push her date of birth back to 567, making her 48 at the
> beginning of the war.  This at least gives her the age to have had a
> fairly long career and been at least an experienced Captain or
> junior Admiral.  This would, IMHO, make her seizure of the fleets
> far more acceptable.  No one is going to listen to a pup of a Ltd.
> Commander.

They will if she's That Good.  Perhaps in the IN of the time,
midshipmen were inducted at 13.  Also, recall that we're talking about
the military of a feudal state; if one shows great promise, there's no
inherent reason one might not rise _very_ quickly.  Same if one's the
girlfriend of an Emperor...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Digital files cannot be made uncopyable, any more than water can be made
not wet.                   --Bruce Schneier on `copy protection' schemes

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:23:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:23:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020806173248.66761.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020806173248.66761.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p04330104b975de6771f8@[143.232.119.186]>

At 10:32 AM -0700 8/6/02, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>I. War between Imperial member states
>A. On a world:  Possession or use of nuclear weapons for any purpose
>will trigger Imperial intervention.  The underlying reason is that
>any use of nuclear weapons, offensive or defensive, will irreparably
>harm the world.
>B. In space:  Nuclear weapons are allowed, but only limited commerce
>raiding is allowed.

Isn't the _possession_ of nuke illegal (the Traveller Adventure has 
nuke anti-ship missils as being illegal).  That is what I would do, 
since I'm not sure you want anyone to be in a postion to nuke a 
planet....

>II.  War between the Imperium and another state:  Anything goes, as
>there is no general convention on warfare.  The objectives of the
>warring parties determine how destructive they will be.  A state
>seeking to take territory from another is unlikely to render the
>target territory valueless.  A state seeking to create a buffer
>between itself and a neighbor may think that a swath of dead and
>barren systems is the best defense, but, on the other hand, may think
>that thriving, independent systems are better.

Of course limited by unspoken agreements and threats of retaliation.

>
>If one state starts destroying the surfaces of another's worlds, it
>must accept that the other state will be able to jump past its
>defenses and destroy the surface of its worlds as well.  There is
>something of a balance of terror among the major states.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:24:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:24:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15E5@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15E5@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <p04330105b975df61ad02@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:43 AM -0700 8/6/02, DeGraff, Jesse wrote:
>What about artists?  ;)
>Jesse


Do you have any experience?  :-)
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:31:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff D. Greenly)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:31:18 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <sd4ff8f8.002@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>

Keeping in mind that it's been a while...

A Naval change of command reflects the fact that the Captain of the
vessel/unit/whatever IS the vessel/unit/whatever. So, the departing
officer is "piped aboard" to the podium and announced as "<Unit Name>,
arriving" He gives his speech to the hands, then the ship's bell is rung
(even in a land station) and he is "piped over the side" and announced
by his name and rank. The new officer goes through the same thing in
reverse. He/She is announced by name and rank, gives a speech, then is
announced as "<unit name>, departing" and the ships bell is rung. There
are a bunch of salutes and "permission to come aboard, sirs" and so on,
but the one essential fact to remember is that the new and old
commmanding officers are changing their identities. "USS Rochester,
Arriving" goes back to being Commander Schmuck, USN, and Commander
Foobar becomes "USS Rochester" Just as a interesting side note, they've
been doing an abbreviated form of this aboard the Space Station,
although it's not really a change of command. There's a ship's bell on
board and it's rung when the Shuttle docks up or breaks away with the
announcement "<ShuttleName>, Arriving (or Departing)" 

I think that because the Imperial Navy has such a long history, it
probably has a lot of cool traditions. Anything that you threw in for
color, like Marines in some traditional dress uniforms standing behind
the "quarterdeck", the transfer of a baton, staff or whistle, maybe a
reading of the ship's history...

Jeff

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:36:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:36:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra (WAS: warship optimization in traveller
 CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020806113510.45efd91c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208061330150.8694-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 6 Aug 2002, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> >IMHO, the model for Arbellatra is Augustus--not Julius--Caesar. That is, she
> >was more a illiant politician than a brilliant general. I base this on a few
> >factors:

Please don't make her so much of a hypocritical prig.

> Good model.  I was thinking a bit of Hitler, personally.  Same kind of
> personal magnetism.

EEK!!!  But I like Arbellatra!

> >1) She essentially lost the 2FW but still managed to declare victory and
> >mobilize the Marches behind her. (Remember, the Imperium ceded territory to
> >the Zhodani after the war, and Library Data mentions that the final
> >engagement resulted in a "stalemate" between the two sides. She basically
> >one the war the same way the U.S. "won" the War of 1812--by not losing as
> >badly as expected.)
> 
> This might have come from misunderstanding Zhodani war goals.  Arbellatra
> probably knew from the start that the Zhodani wanted to remove the Imperium
> from Zhodani territory, not destroy the Imperium.  But playing up the image
> of the Zho's as barbarians helped her cause.  A draw was as good as a
> victory to her.

Ah, yes.

> >2) It seems doubtful to me that even after a decade of civil war her
> >provincial fleet could cow the Vland Sector Fleet--yet she must have had the
> >cooperation of Vland sector, as others have pointed out, in order to
> >triumph. Again, this demonstrates her political acumen.
> 
> She had a good line.  In this aspect, she's much like St. Jean d'Arc.  The
> "Maid of Mora" driving to restore the Imperium!  She would find ready
> converts in Deneb and Corridor. She probably played a different game with
> the Vilani.  Promises of increased power in the court, culminating with her
> son's marriage to a Vilani noblewoman in 679.  As she drew closer to
> Capital, I'm sure that pretender fleets defected en masse rather than face
> annihilation.

I like Arbellatra la Pucelle much better than Arbellatra as Hitler.

> It is her that I am of two minds..  I sort of like the idea that she
> honestly meant to find a surviving Zhunastu heir; only taking the throne
> when that proved impossible.

I do, too.

> I think the title of Grand Admiral was given to her for no better reason
> than she knew how to fight.  

Amen!
 
> She arrives in the Core no later than early 621, when a large armada. Along
> the way, she defeats several pretenders, and forces a battle with Gustus at
> the Second Battle of Zhimaway.  Proceeding to Capital, she declares herself
> regent in late 622, at the age of 55.  Becomes Empress in 629 at 62, Dies
> in 666 at 99.  Marries late, first son born in 624.
> 
> Does this time line work for people?

It will for me.

Kiri :)
**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:55:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:55:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra (WAS: warship optimization in traveller
 CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020806113510.45efd91c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208061330150.8694-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 6 Aug 2002, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> >IMHO, the model for Arbellatra is Augustus--not Julius--Caesar. That is, she
> >was more a illiant politician than a brilliant general. I base this on a few
> >factors:

Please don't make her so much of a hypocritical prig.

> Good model.  I was thinking a bit of Hitler, personally.  Same kind of
> personal magnetism.

EEK!!!  But I like Arbellatra!

> >1) She essentially lost the 2FW but still managed to declare victory and
> >mobilize the Marches behind her. (Remember, the Imperium ceded territory to
> >the Zhodani after the war, and Library Data mentions that the final
> >engagement resulted in a "stalemate" between the two sides. She basically
> >one the war the same way the U.S. "won" the War of 1812--by not losing as
> >badly as expected.)
> 
> This might have come from misunderstanding Zhodani war goals.  Arbellatra
> probably knew from the start that the Zhodani wanted to remove the Imperium
> from Zhodani territory, not destroy the Imperium.  But playing up the image
> of the Zho's as barbarians helped her cause.  A draw was as good as a
> victory to her.

Ah, yes.

> >2) It seems doubtful to me that even after a decade of civil war her
> >provincial fleet could cow the Vland Sector Fleet--yet she must have had the
> >cooperation of Vland sector, as others have pointed out, in order to
> >triumph. Again, this demonstrates her political acumen.
> 
> She had a good line.  In this aspect, she's much like St. Jean d'Arc.  The
> "Maid of Mora" driving to restore the Imperium!  She would find ready
> converts in Deneb and Corridor. She probably played a different game with
> the Vilani.  Promises of increased power in the court, culminating with her
> son's marriage to a Vilani noblewoman in 679.  As she drew closer to
> Capital, I'm sure that pretender fleets defected en masse rather than face
> annihilation.

I like Arbellatra la Pucelle much better than Arbellatra as Hitler.

> It is her that I am of two minds..  I sort of like the idea that she
> honestly meant to find a surviving Zhunastu heir; only taking the throne
> when that proved impossible.

I do, too.

> I think the title of Grand Admiral was given to her for no better reason
> than she knew how to fight.  

Amen!
 
> She arrives in the Core no later than early 621, when a large armada. Along
> the way, she defeats several pretenders, and forces a battle with Gustus at
> the Second Battle of Zhimaway.  Proceeding to Capital, she declares herself
> regent in late 622, at the age of 55.  Becomes Empress in 629 at 62, Dies
> in 666 at 99.  Marries late, first son born in 624.
> 
> Does this time line work for people?

It will for me.

Kiri :)
**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 15:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Tue Aug  6 14:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com> <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net> <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <20020805075953.A24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <3436.64.8.3.28.1028520584.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <20020805215043.E25687@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3D4F3B54.62F77189@mindspring.com>

Timothy Little wrote:
> 
> hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> > There is always the ability to design bigger and faster missiles using
> > GURPS VEHICLES and the guidelines presented with TRAVELLER itself.
> 
> Yes, that's what I'm wondering about.  Do I want to design better
> weapons and tactics for my Traveller game, at the expense of making it
> less like Traveller?  Or do I try to rationalise the existing ones to
> maintain compatibility with what other people have done?
> 
> >  A friend of mine created an inertial guided missile that removes
> > the explosive warhead from the missile and turned it into a kinetic
> > kill device.
> 
> Yes; either remove the chemical warhead or replace it with a fusion
> warhead.  A chemical explosive makes little sense.  Even the standard
> missiles accelerate to 72 km/s in the first round -- putting a
> chemical explosive in them is a bit like putting a spring-loaded
> boxing glove on an anti-tank penetrator.

I always considered the HE as essentially a frag grenade for ships. A
small cloud of debris having a better chance to hit. 

> 
> > The missile frigate then starts a high speed run against the
> > intended target and launches its missiles outside of sensor range of
> > an enemy ship.
> 
> That works under the standard rules, too.  I've had vague thoughts in
> the same direction, but didn't actually get round to testing them.
> 
> > Do the math and see how much damage a single missile moving at 90
> > hexes per turn does ;)

Thanks for a nasty tactic. The Forinians IMMTU are going to be using
that. I was going to have to bring in more help. I think it will be
quite a suprise to my players.



-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline. It
helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear
weapons, but the very least you need a beer.
         - Frank Zappa


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 16:14:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Aug  6 15:14:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The big fleet debate
Message-ID: <20020806220841.64120.qmail@web20417.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>

>>B. In space:  Nuclear weapons are allowed, but only limited
commerce
>>raiding is allowed.
>
>Isn't the _possession_ of nuke illegal (the Traveller Adventure has 
>nuke anti-ship missils as being illegal).  That is what I would do, 
>since I'm not sure you want anyone to be in a postion to nuke a 
>planet....

That is certainly a workable approach.  The Imperium has to balance
removing the most effective anti-ship weapons from their law-abiding
merchants against the risk of misuse of those weapons (under many
very easy to effectuate scenarios) against worlds.  

--Glenn


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 16:21:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Aug  6 15:21:11 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <20020806221929.46060.qmail@web20418.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Jeff D. Greenly" <jgreenly@hsc.wvu.edu>
>
>I think that because the Imperial Navy has such a long history, it
>probably has a lot of cool traditions. Anything that you threw in
for
>color, like Marines in some traditional dress uniforms standing 
>behind the "quarterdeck", the transfer of a baton, staff or whistle,
>maybe a reading of the ship's history...

Definitely make up some cool stuff and tell us about it!  Don't
forget to include weird stuff that comes out of the Vilani
traditions, too.

--Glenn



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 16:25:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Tue Aug  6 15:25:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
References: <20020806021137.13bb35092d5d49ae9344179b452c1788.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <3D504BD3.B4316290@mindspring.com>

Cheng Tseng wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> This probably displays the depths of my ignorance, but can anybody give me a
> description of how a unit's change of command ceremony goes?  I am looking
> specifically for the US Navy's protocol, but any nation or service is welcomed.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> C.T.

>From my experience of five change of command ceremonies. Two at
pierside*
Enlisted are taken out of their workspaces and put into the most
uncomfortable uniform and put at ease in the sun, usually on asphalt or
concrete. *Or a steel deck if available. 
After an interminable wait some O's come out and congratulate each other
on what fine people they are and what a good job they've done and are
going to do. 
Then the enlisted are sent back to work and the O's have a party.

-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
If you can't convince them, confuse them.
                -Harry S. Truman

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 16:33:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fred Ramen)
Date: Tue Aug  6 15:33:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
Message-ID: <003401c23d98$a70d8680$da29f7a5@pctframen>

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>

>>"Nothing succeeds like success" they say.  I've always sensed that along
with being politically brilliant, she was possibly the greatest strategic
and tactical mind the Imperium ever saw.  She was only 28 when the war
broke out, according to canon.  I'd prefer to push her date of birth back
to 567, making her 48 at the beginning of the war.  This at least gives her
the age to have had a fairly long career and been at least an experienced
Captain or junior Admiral.  This would, IMHO, make her seizure of the
fleets far more acceptable.  No one is going to listen to a pup of a Ltd.
Commander.<<

I'm probably in a tiny minority here, but I remain unconvinced about
Arbellatra's strategic brilliance. Certainly her conduct of the 2FW does not
seem to have a personal stamp upon it the way Norris' saving strategy in the
5FW does. Canonical info on the war is spotty, of course, but it is
described as a "holding action" accompanied by commerce raids. When the
dreadnoughts are finally constructed, Arbellatra does not lead them on a
reconquest of the Marches, but merely forces a stalemate...and then promptly
concedes territory to the Zhodani, as well as separating several other
worlds from the Imperium. Compare Norris, who does in fact lead a reconquest
that restores the status quo antebellum, as well as changing the strategic
makeup of the states in the Marches in the Imperium's favor.

>>I think the title of Grand Admiral was given to her for no better reason
than she knew how to fight.  Look at all the generals that Lincoln broke
before finding Grant. She demonstrated the ability to win.  Before that,
the post maybe had been more political, but consider the event of the 1FW,
I somehow doubt it.  The Marches had just been cursed with a string of bad
leaders.<<

Yes, but in the canonical timeline she is simply too young, and Cleon V is
around for too short a time for this to work. (He rules for three years, the
first of which is the first year of the 2FW; this would imply that
Arbellatra could not have been appointed by him prior to 616 or so, unless
she was already known to him for some reason.)

I myself like the idea that the Alikhalikoi family were prominent supporters
of Cleon's faction, or perhaps loyalists who resisted Olav. They may have
been pretenders to a duchy in the Marches, or had had their title revoked.
What may have happened is that an older member of the Alikhalikoi family was
actually appointed by Cleon, but due to death or other happenstance was
unable to actually serve. Arbellatra was then chosen because she was the
least controversial candidate--her family had the commission, she was the
heir, and her youth would allow her to be manipulated by the other nobles.
Her brilliance was that she ended up dominating them. (To bring in Doug's
Hitler analogy, compare the way the right wing thought they would dominate
Hitler in 1933. Or how Lincoln routinely outmanuevered his cabinet members
political ambition.)

>>Wit my revised birth year, she is now 48 when the 2FW breaks out, 53 when
it ends.  She had to leave before the end of the war, since she defeats
Gustus in 622.  Have her, and a small fleet leave in late 618, leaving the
war to a trusted group of under commanders.  The history is murky here.
Perhaps the Zhodani were broken by mid-618, and the last ~18 months were
mopping up and retaking worlds?

She arrives in the Core no later than early 621, when a large armada. Along
the way, she defeats several pretenders, and forces a battle with Gustus at
the Second Battle of Zhimaway.  Proceeding to Capital, she declares herself
regent in late 622, at the age of 55.  Becomes Empress in 629 at 62, Dies
in 666 at 99.  Marries late, first son born in 624.<<

I have no problem with this as an alternate timeline. I guess my point is
merely that this kind of surgery is necessary to produce Arbellatra the
Conqueror. Canon allows for a different picture to be read between the
lines, IMHO. To bring back Augustus, Arbellatra may have succeeded in
keeping the throne because, like Octavian, she was just enough of a general
to have won the war but obviously not some one who could only rule by virtue
of the sword. That is, as an UNprofessional Admiral, she would have the
support of a populace thoroughly sick of what the professional soldiers had
been doing for twenty years.

All IMHO, YMMV, IANAGD, etc.

Fred Ramen


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 16:33:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug  6 15:33:28 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1028651185.1051.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020806201901.C28821@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1028651185.1051.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020807082917.A30389@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Nope, the Vehicles rule is that the Acc bonus is not limited by
> Gunnery skill.

Where does it say that?  I must have missed it :/


> Huh?  At 600 miles, they're 2 seconds out; assuming 12G missiles,
> they can travel up to 240 meters in that time, which means all the
> missiles need to be within an area that small.

You're assuming the missiles only use their thrusters transversely in
the last 2 seconds, which is what I (as attacker) would want you to
think ;)


Consider the trajectories of a salvo of missiles that initially
accelerate at just under 12G for two turns, aimed up to 11 degrees
away from the victim (it works out to 11.8G minimum axial component).
They all choose a different off-axis direction within that cone, and
maintain the same axial component of acceleration.

Then they all use up to 7G of transverse acceleration for two more
turns to curve back in toward the victim while still maintaining more
than 9G axial component (actually up to 9.7G).

All their trajectories pass through the victim with a forward
component of 42 hexes per turn, but their sideways component varies by
up to 14 hexes per turn in random directions.

Oops, that means I miscalculated earlier.  At 600 miles range the
region of incoming missiles has a *radius* of 200 miles, for a
diameter of 400 miles.  Better multiply the canister mass by 4.

As an aside, if we're using Vehicles to calculate impactor damage,
then the incoming missiles do more than four times as damage when they
hit (average 6dx19700(5) each) than they do in GURPS Traveller
(6dx4300(5) each).


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 16:43:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue Aug  6 15:43:04 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
In-Reply-To: <006301c23ce3$2bcea180$eeb18b90@computer>
References: <006301c23ce3$2bcea180$eeb18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <3d50427f.7657767@post.demon.co.uk>

"Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com> writes:

>The counter mix from Invasion Earth might be worth studying.

There aren't any TL15 units on either side. =20

The Imperial Marines are 78% TL14 (1 division, 3 regiments) plus 2 IM
regiments at TL12 and TL13.

The Imperial regular army is 70% TL14, 20% TL13, 10% TL12.

Imperial colonial forces (which account for about 30% of the total
Imperial strength) are TL11 - TL14, with TL12 being the norm.

Solomani regular troops are 43% TL14, 42% TL 13, 11% TL12 and 4% TL11.
The local Terran guerrillas are all TL 13.

Stephen
(Incidentally, I remember there being a single 1-point TL 16 unit in
=46FW, which I always assumed to be the player characters!)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 16:43:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Aug  6 15:43:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
References: <003401c23d98$a70d8680$da29f7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <3D5050EB.9050601@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Fred Ramen wrote:

> I'm probably in a tiny minority here, but I remain unconvinced about
> Arbellatra's strategic brilliance. Certainly her conduct of the 2FW does not
> seem to have a personal stamp upon it the way Norris' saving strategy in the
> 5FW does. Canonical info on the war is spotty, of course, but it is
> described as a "holding action" accompanied by commerce raids. When the
> dreadnoughts are finally constructed, Arbellatra does not lead them on a
> reconquest of the Marches, but merely forces a stalemate...and then promptly
> concedes territory to the Zhodani, as well as separating several other
> worlds from the Imperium. 

Probably this is because she knows she needs to a) bring an end ASAP to 
the 2FW, and b) She needs those Dreadnaughts to end the rebellion, 
rather than throwing them into a likely bloody fight to beat the Zhodani 
back.

The Zho's, being in an expansionist mood at the moment, are only too 
happy to help her achieve her goals.

Her goal was not to *win* the 2FW, but to *end* it with enough power and 
fleets strength to go fight the REAL battle, that of re-unifying the 
Imperium.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 16:43:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue Aug  6 15:43:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Aircraft carrier displacement
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D0D@USCHM203>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D0D@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <3d514ac0.9770968@post.demon.co.uk>

"Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> writes:

>	5 tons gross ship displacement(in today's nautical terms)=3D1
>displacement ton in Traveller.

On that basis, then:

Battleship HMS Victory (TL3) 2164 tons =3D just over 400 dtons (the size
of a patrol cruiser)
=46rigate USS Constitution (TL3) 1576 tons =3D 300 dtons
=46rigate HMS Warrior (TL4) 9137 tons =3D 1800 dtons
Monitor USS Monitor (TL4) 987 tons =3D 200 dtons (a free trader)
Typical Spanish or Portuguese ship from the age of exploration,
15th/16th century (TL2) 80 tons =3D 16 dtons.  (Magellan or Columbus
would have thought a Caen-class marine dropship's bunkroom
accommodation to be sheer luxury...)

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 17:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Aug  6 16:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <m3y9bqqsbp.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20806.152713.5c8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:
>> 
>> We extend POW's and noncombatants a certain amount of "courtesy" and
>> expect the same from our enemies.  Our culture (at least for now)
>> calls for this courtesy to be extended even if it is not returned.
>
> IMHO civilian opinion that's foolish.  The deal should be play by our
> rules or we play by none.  That is, we'll refrain from using NBC
> weapons, we'll take prisoners, we'll treat them right, we'll avoid
> hitting civilians for exactly so long as the other side does.  If they
> don't, then we don't; instead we run up the black flag and fight
> dirty.  It's not as though they'd retaliate by fighting dirty; they
> already do.

Thing is, we've already set the precedent that failing to abide by the
rules during a war will get those responsible tried as *criminals*
after the war. 

And yes, we were rather hypocritical in that we should have tried the
people on our own side who were responsible for things like Dresden.

We *do* have the stated policy of responding to use of weapons of mass
destruction with weapons of mass destruction. And we carefully avoid
stating that we will retaliate "in kind". Odds are that we'd respond to
bioagents with nukes, simply because have nukes, and frankly they are a
hell of a lot *safer* for all concerned. 

Chemical attacks I'm not sure. 

But shooting prisoners or mistreating them is against our *laws*. Which
is one reason why a number of folks are more that a bit upswet about
the fact that at the current time we are *violating* our own laws when
it comes to the people taken prisoner in Afghanistan and held at
Guantanamo Bay. They haven't been accorded prisoner of war status, nor
have they been classified as criminals awaiting trial.

We are damaging our own legal system *badly* by doing this. And that
and other similar things we are doing are actually more apt to destroy
the US than the actions of the terrorists!

If we can't follow our own laws except when it is convenient, we are
all at the mercy of anybody in a position of authorty.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 17:33:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 16:33:12 2002
Subject: [TML] army usage
Message-ID: <a6.2a3d2ddd.2a81b626@aol.com>

 >>I would agree.  But as you will observe in Afghanistan (and arguably 
Serbia) 
 >>they did it by putting someone else's young men into the mud -- and not 
all 
 >>that many of those.  I seem to remember something along those lines in 
 >>Gibbons ....
 >
 >That army was just laying there...

I was thinking of Rome's extensive use of auxiliaries and allies towards the 
end.
 
 >Seriously, from our point of view, Afghanistan was as close to a perfect
 >situation as you can get.  All we had to do was provide air & logisitcal
 >support, and the population in the are being attacked wasn't too thrilled
 >with the current government.  They all aren't going to be that way.

(Actually, it wasn't the population that opposed the Taliban.  it was the 
Northern Alliance.  The only reason the NA isn't pillaging the citizens like 
they were doing before the Taliban kicked them out is because they're 
preoccupied spending all that money that we bribed them with.  Sort of a 
Marshall Plan for bandit chiefs.  Seems to have worked so far.)

Well, one wouldn't think so, but as I understand it the plans for attacking 
Iraq involve a repeat of Afghanisan, using "rebels" in the north and south to 
do the actual fighting while we provide airstrikes.  Again:  "Army?  What 
Army?"  To my knowledge the army made not one twitch towards deployment 
during the Afghan battle -- either the authorities were supremely confident 
that they didn't need the army, or they had misgivings about deploying it in 
its present condition.  One wouldn't think Iraq would roll up so handily, but 
no-one thought the Taliban would roll up so fast either.  Apparently we're 
going to find out.

On the other hand, if the latest briefs are any indication and we launch any 
military action against the house of Saud, then I think we're going to have 
to occupy everything from Libya to Jakarta.  That _will_ require an army, and 
I'm not sure we have one.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 17:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (markc@peak.org)
Date: Tue Aug  6 16:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <244640-2200282623322384@M2W096.mail2web.com>

Jesse DeGraff <Jesse=2EDeGraff@netapp=2Ecom> writes:

> Gee, ALL the clowns are coming out of the woodwork ;
> BTW, is the December shoot going to happen?

Umm=2E=2E=2E December=2E  Why do you ask? :^)


(Seriously, it's on Saturday, Dec=2E 7th=2E)

    - Mark C=2E


--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 17:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Tue Aug  6 16:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <003401c23d98$a70d8680$da29f7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOECFILAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Fred Ramen
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 3:29 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Arbellatra


From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>

>>"Nothing succeeds like success" they say.  I've always sensed that along
with being politically brilliant, she was possibly the greatest strategic
and tactical mind the Imperium ever saw.  She was only 28 when the war
broke out, according to canon.  I'd prefer to push her date of birth back
to 567, making her 48 at the beginning of the war.  This at least gives her
the age to have had a fairly long career and been at least an experienced
Captain or junior Admiral.  This would, IMHO, make her seizure of the
fleets far more acceptable.  No one is going to listen to a pup of a Ltd.
Commander.<<

I'm probably in a tiny minority here, but I remain unconvinced about
Arbellatra's strategic brilliance. Certainly her conduct of the 2FW does not
seem to have a personal stamp upon it the way Norris' saving strategy in the
5FW does. Canonical info on the war is spotty, of course, but it is
described as a "holding action" accompanied by commerce raids. When the
dreadnoughts are finally constructed, Arbellatra does not lead them on a
reconquest of the Marches, but merely forces a stalemate...and then promptly
concedes territory to the Zhodani, as well as separating several other
worlds from the Imperium. Compare Norris, who does in fact lead a reconquest
that restores the status quo antebellum, as well as changing the strategic
makeup of the states in the Marches in the Imperium's favor.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Ahe doesn't need to be a genius she has thirdly things going for her when
she
marches on the Captal.  First, Her force have been defending the Imperium
against
outsiders and she is out to save the rest of the imperium.  Secondlym, she
has
the core of Plankwell's flee, ;png in the tooth perhaps but still a bunch
with a
tradition of winning.  The ones she beats have been mixing it up in the Core
cector for a long time, repair and maintainance facilities have been gought
over
conquered and reconquered, not entirely bloodlessly for decdes now.  Her
fleet
battleworn though it may be, it is still in better shape then its
competition.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>I think the title of Grand Admiral was given to her for no better reason
than she knew how to fight.  Look at all the generals that Lincoln broke
before finding Grant. She demonstrated the ability to win.  Before that,
the post maybe had been more political, but consider the event of the 1FW,
I somehow doubt it.  The Marches had just been cursed with a string of bad
leaders.<<

Yes, but in the canonical timeline she is simply too young, and Cleon V is
around for too short a time for this to work. (He rules for three years, the
first of which is the first year of the 2FW; this would imply that
Arbellatra could not have been appointed by him prior to 616 or so, unless
she was already known to him for some reason.)

I myself like the idea that the Alikhalikoi family were prominent supporters
of Cleon's faction, or perhaps loyalists who resisted Olav. They may have
been pretenders to a duchy in the Marches, or had had their title revoked.
What may have happened is that an older member of the Alikhalikoi family was
actually appointed by Cleon, but due to death or other happenstance was
unable to actually serve. Arbellatra was then chosen because she was the
least controversial candidate--her family had the commission, she was the
heir, and her youth would allow her to be manipulated by the other nobles.
Her brilliance was that she ended up dominating them. (To bring in Doug's
Hitler analogy, compare the way the right wing thought they would dominate
Hitler in 1933. Or how Lincoln routinely outmanuevered his cabinet members
political ambition.)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Or a combination, she lucked out early, and won some critical battles.
Like Hitler, she is a good tactician, not a strategist.  She was however a
good pokitical leader and even if Arabella the war leader varely won
Arabella the protector was superb in saving the Imperium.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>Wit my revised birth year, she is now 48 when the 2FW breaks out, 53 when
it ends.  She had to leave before the end of the war, since she defeats
Gustus in 622.  Have her, and a small fleet leave in late 618, leaving the
war to a trusted group of under commanders.  The history is murky here.
Perhaps the Zhodani were broken by mid-618, and the last ~18 months were
mopping up and retaking worlds?

She arrives in the Core no later than early 621, when a large armada. Along
the way, she defeats several pretenders, and forces a battle with Gustus at
the Second Battle of Zhimaway.  Proceeding to Capital, she declares herself
regent in late 622, at the age of 55.  Becomes Empress in 629 at 62, Dies
in 666 at 99.  Marries late, first son born in 624.<<

I have no problem with this as an alternate timeline. I guess my point is
merely that this kind of surgery is necessary to produce Arbellatra the
Conqueror. Canon allows for a different picture to be read between the
lines, IMHO. To bring back Augustus, Arbellatra may have succeeded in
keeping the throne because, like Octavian, she was just enough of a general
to have won the war but obviously not some one who could only rule by virtue
of the sword. That is, as an UNprofessional Admiral, she would have the
support of a populace thoroughly sick of what the professional soldiers had
been doing for twenty years.

All IMHO, YMMV, IANAGD, etc.

Fred Ramen

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Likewise

jml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 17:46:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Tue Aug  6 16:46:04 2002
Subject: [TML] army usage
In-Reply-To: <a6.2a3d2ddd.2a81b626@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0208070140370.363897-100000@svati>

On Tue, 6 Aug 2002 Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> >Seriously, from our point of view, Afghanistan was as close to a perfect
> >situation as you can get.  All we had to do was provide air & logisitcal
> >support, and the population in the are being attacked wasn't too thrilled
> >with the current government.  They all aren't going to be that way.
>
>(Actually, it wasn't the population that opposed the Taliban.  it was the
>Northern Alliance.  The only reason the NA isn't pillaging the citizens like
>they were doing before the Taliban kicked them out is because they're
>preoccupied spending all that money that we bribed them with.  Sort of a
>Marshall Plan for bandit chiefs.  Seems to have worked so far.)

I really think you should do some research on the situation in Afganisthan
and how everything went down before blurting things out. The main population
of Afganisthan was opposed to the Taliban, which is mainly from a tribe to
the south west (I think). The Taliban was however heavily enforcing their rule
and the Northern Alliance was the only once with enough manpower and equipment
to fight back.

Also don't think there was any bribing necessary. The Northern Alliance was
losing and losing bad, until the Americans interfeered and provided supported
the NA with heavy bombing.

Tommy Grav
-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 17:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Aug  6 16:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <200208062357.MFJ01994@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Jeff D. Greenly" says
<snip naval change of command>

Don't forget - the outgoing commander has to do an inventory 
with the new commander, and the new commander gets to sign 
for the ship and all of the equipment in it.
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 18:01:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Aug  6 17:01:05 2002
Subject: [TML] OT:  December ARPC shoot
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15F3@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Good to hear!  I'm desperately going to try to make it up again finally, as the financial situation has improved a little.  Providing of course that I can get a new roomate and don't have to keep paying twice the rent like I am now :(  Also, I'm going to invite Erin again, and maybe I can get my "girlfriend" to go too ;)

Jesse


-----Original Message-----
From: markc@peak.org [mailto:markc@peak.org]
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 4:32 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .


Jesse DeGraff <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> writes:

> Gee, ALL the clowns are coming out of the woodwork ;
> BTW, is the December shoot going to happen?

Umm... December.  Why do you ask? :^)


(Seriously, it's on Saturday, Dec. 7th.)

    - Mark C.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 18:01:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Aug  6 17:01:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
Message-ID: <200208070000.MFJ02183@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

alan spik says
<snip the enlisted view of the change of command>

the sergeant major kept me and a couple of other guys in the 
rear of the formation.  we were supposed to watch out for 
people about to fall out, and as discreetly as possible, move 
forward and get them out of formation.

hot sun, standing in one place for a long time, etc...
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 18:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 17:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The cloak
Message-ID: <OFE82EC4F7.A922AAEF-ONCA256C0E.0000643B@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

And Brian gave us a wonderfully-UNwanted mental image:
>I once ran through the Maxcy dorm parking lot at USC wearing only 
sneakers
>and a Spuds McKenzie beach towel around my neck (yelling "SCIENCE!" at 
the
>top of my lungs for reasons that now escape me)...does that count as 
wearing
>a cloak? 

Only if it was a Cloak of Invisibility.

The _cloak_ being invisible, I mean.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 18:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Tue Aug  6 17:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
References: <20020806203610.24254.48308.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D506687.7BD7A795@earthlink.net>

Mark C. posted:
> 
> Jesse DeGraff <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> writes:
> 
> > What about artists?  ;)
> 
> Sure, why not?  Do you know any? >^)
> 
>     - Mark C.

Oh, gawd, puh-LEEZE let him on it. Maybe SJG will one
day market his graphics on T-shirts (HINT, HINT!).

Do you know how difficult it is for me to NOT
print T-shirts of his stuff for personal use?

David Smart

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 18:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Aug  6 17:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: army usage
Message-ID: <20020807002817.99096.qmail@web20417.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>

>I really think you should do some research on the situation in 
>Afganisthan and how everything went down before blurting things out.
>The main population of Afganisthan was opposed to the Taliban, which
>is mainly from a tribe to the south west (I think). 

Tommy, you should do some research, too.  The Taliban was composed
primarily of Pakistani and Saudi volunteers who called themselves
"students" (of Islam).  Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, with the knowledge
if not the support of the United States government, formed and
trained the Taliban and sent them to end the civil war in
Afghanistan, which they did.  The peace they imposed was in many ways
worse than the war.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 18:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 17:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
Message-ID: <OF0802E7D8.0474AB00-ONCA256C0D.008279D4@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Martin posted a correction:
>>>The Impeirum is TL 14 mostly, with Tl 15 just creeping in over the last
>>>few years.
>>
>> OK, this one's got me puzzled, I'll give a serious reply now.
>
>Ooops. Sorry "best tech in the Imperium is mostly TL 14, with 15
>creeping in". Average is lower..

Thank goodness! (I was sort-of worried this would mean a future major 
correction to the T20 rule-book. ;-)  ;-)

It also makes my other, later posts on the topic moot.

("Moot" as in "in complete agreement with". So now I can remain mute. ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------





tml-request@travellercentral.com
Sent by: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
07/08/2002 02:18
Please respond to tml

 
        To:     tml@travellercentral.com
        cc: 
        Subject:        TML digest, Vol 2002 #890 - 23 msgs
Is this part of a business decision process?: 


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Today's Topics:

   1. Woo Hoo Yepieee the IW are coming to town (Andrew & Dii 
Moffatt-Vallance)
   2. Silly Question (Cheng Tseng)
   3. Re: Gas Giant Mass (David Shayne)
   4. Re: Re: Mines (Timothy Little)
   5. RE: Silly Question (Mosaic Tapestry)
   6. Re: The big fleet debate (Timothy Little)
   7. GURPS MISSILE WARFARE (was The big fleet debate) (hal@buffnet.net)
   8. Re: T20 background question (MJ Dougherty)
   9. Re: Jump governor (MJ Dougherty)
  10. Re: Imperial Taxes (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
  11. Re: The big fleet debate (Timothy Little)
  12. Re: Re: Quote (correction) (Leonard Erickson)
  13. Re: mines (Timothy Little)
  14. Re: The big fleet debate (Timothy Little)
  15. Re: The big fleet debate (Timothy Little)
  16. Ad campaign...... (Michael Cessna)
  17. Re: Re: Mines (Rupert Boleyn)
  18. Re: RE: Dehumanization (John T. Kwon)
  19. GURPS Interstellar Wars (knightsky@juno.com)
  20. RE: GURPS Interstellar Wars (Mike West)
  21. Re: The cloak (Hurrel, Brian)
  22. Re: Gas Giant Mass (Anthony Jackson)
  23. Re: RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries" (Anthony Jackson)

--__--__--

Message: 1
From: "Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 18:05:31 +1200
Subject: [TML] Woo Hoo Yepieee the IW are coming to town
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Copied from JTAS

From:       Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Date:       23:01:47, Aug 05, 2002
Message-ID: 15305
Group:      General Discussion

Interstellar Wars: A New Direction For Traveller Steve Jackson Games is 
pleased to announce that its license to produce a GURPS version of the 
classic science-fiction roleplaying game Traveller has been extended for 
another three years. By agreement with Far Future Enterprises, the 
GURPS Traveller line, as well as the online Journal of the Travellers' Aid 

Society, will continue at least through the end of 2005.

The new license also gives SJ Games the right to open up a new period in 
the distant past of the classic Third Imperium setting. Long before the 
foundation of the Imperium, the Humans of Terra reached the stars for the 
first time, only to find that they were already owned by someone else. 
Centuries of conflict followed, in which the outnumbered Terrans fought 
for 
their very survival against a vast but decadent alien empire. Now GURPS 
Traveller will examine this crucial time. The first release in the new 
line, 
GURPS Traveller: The Interstellar Wars, is tentatively scheduled for a 
Summer 2003 release.

"The Interstellar Wars have always been of great interest to Traveller 
fans," 
said GURPS Traveller Line Editor Jon F. Zeigler. "It's very exciting to 
have 
the opportunity to develop this period into a setting for epic adventure." 

Marc Miller, creator of Traveller, agreed. "I'm excited about opening a 
new 
milieu. There's room for a lot of new things here." Senior Line Editor 
Loren 
Wiseman, long-time Traveller author and editor, remains at the helm of the 

GURPS Traveller product line. He is assisted by Zeigler, and by Graeme 
Davis, editor of the Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society (JTAS).


--__--__--

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 02:13:40 -0400
To: tml@travellercentral.com
From: cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng)
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Hi,

This probably displays the depths of my ignorance, but can anybody give me 
a
description of how a unit's change of command ceremony goes?  I am looking
specifically for the US Navy's protocol, but any nation or service is 
welcomed.

Thanks,

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - 
they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

 My Sale List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
 My Want List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


--__--__--

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 02:27:29 -0500
From: David Shayne <daveshayne@ameritech.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

> Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 09:42:43 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> David Shayne <daveshayne@ameritech.net> writes:
> >
> >> Any clues?
> >
> >I couldn't find that info in any TNE source. There are charts for that
> >in "World Builder's Handbook" for MT. Assuming for the moment that you
> >don't have access to that very worthwhile publication I can give you
> >some typical figures from that source.
> >
> >Smallest SGG radius = 20
> >Average SGG radius ~= 60
> >Highest SGG radius = 100
> >
> >Smallest LGG radius = 110
> >Average LGG radius ~= 175
> >Highest LGG radius = 240
> 
> Applying a realism check here, Jupiter, at size 88, is about the limit
> for any sort of gas giant (assuming TNE size is in thousands of miles,
> like CT size).

Yes it is. And yes from a perfect realism standpoint this is wrong.
However probably not hugely broken since the main thing we need to
determine here is the mass and this gives a reasonable number for mass
while still being usable with the same formula as for small rocky worlds
. (like earth) Besides I tend to the view that wherever reality and the
rules are in conflict it's almost always reality that has it wrong.
(With a special thanks to the late Doug Adams.)

> >
> >Lowest GG density = .1
> >Average GG density ~= .21
> >Highest GG density = .3
> 
> Assuming that's g/cc, that's horribly wrong. 

Standard densities. With Earth = 1. Doesn't look so horibly wrong now
does it? 

David Shayne

--__--__--

Message: 4
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 17:43:14 +1000
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Mines
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> No, I forgot to mention that this model can run the sensor and brain 
> for 7 days.

Phew, that's quite a bit better.  You're right about the huge drain
for PEMS though.  Aren't they meant to be *passive* sensors?


> Perhaps a CAPTOR style sensor platform with a number of small missiles 
> on board would be a workable comprimise, though it'd start getting 
> expensive real quick, and it wouldn't be long before most design 
> committees turned it into a small battle-station by adding point 
> defence, etc. I'm sure.

I strongly suspect so, yes.  Trouble is, they'd probably be right :(
Maybe small mines aren't viable in FF&S?


- Tim

--__--__--

Message: 5
From: "Mosaic Tapestry" <n2sami@attbi.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] Silly Question
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 01:06:56 -0700
Organization: often equals Disorgainization
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

I'm not sure which details are important to you but the essential bit of
a US Army change of command is the transfer of the colors. The outgoing
commander hands the colors to his commanding officer who immediately
hands them to the incoming commander.

A web page of events surrounding such with photo of the act:
http://www.militarymarksmanship.org/hoidahlcoc.htm

A web page of events surrounding such with parade and all:
http://www.afsouth.nato.int/images/change.htm



--__--__--

Message: 6
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 18:22:06 +1000
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] The big fleet debate
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Hal wrote:
> List all of the modifiers to gunner's skill you are using in a 
> missile/antimissile engagement.

Pretty similar to yours.  In more detail:

> Skill 12 laser gunner

A reasonable median.  I've been assuming about 9 for civilians who
have weapons but test-fire them more than they use them, up to about
15 for well-trained and experienced military personnel.

> Gunnery +6 to hit program

I generally use a Complexity 8 targeting program for +9 to hit (not
cumulative with Gunnery program).  Civilian ships will have less,
possibly +4.

> ROF bonus +10

I get only +7 RoF bonus per laser, or +8 (maybe +9) for a standard
"triple laser" turret.  Are you grouping them into larger batteries?

> Total modifiers:
> 12+ 32 + 6 + 10 + 10 + 2 - 39 = 72-39 = 32

Pretty close; I get between 24-37 depending upon circumstances; 32 is
fine.


> Rolling an average of 10 on 3d6 means that you will have succeeded by 
> 22.  Number of missiles successfully engaged in that round will be equal 
to 
> round((22-3)/2,0) or 19/2 rounded up or 10.

It's rather odd to see a turret that fires only 1 shot per 20 seconds
take out 10 missiles in the 15-30 seconds it takes the missiles to
cross the last half-hex, but them's the rules :(

Yes, that's close to the figures I get.


>  Please note that second edition rules for TRAVELLER have bumped up
> the ROF bonus from their current levels to current levels +3.

That's OK, I've got the second edition rules.  Just bought them a
couple of months ago.


> If more than 10 are inbound, he stops 10 and the rest hit.

That's the problem.  Dton-for-dton, there will always be more than 10
incoming missiles per defending turret using any sane launcher and
guidance design.  A million points of impact damage per turret
*really* hurts.


- Tim

--__--__--

Message: 7
From: hal@buffnet.net
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 04:40:04 -0400 (EDT)
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: [TML] GURPS MISSILE WARFARE (was The big fleet debate)
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

>> Gunnery +6 to hit program
>
> I generally use a Complexity 8 targeting program for +9 to hit (not
> cumulative with Gunnery program).  Civilian ships will have less,
> possibly +4.

The CDI (C Defense Industries) had a showcase of a lot of different types
of low power lasers.  The trade off was that they increased the rate of
fire to get an increase in ROF bonus.  One interesting development was to
build a specialized targeting computer.  Using GURPS rules, it was a
specilized computer getting a +1 complexity bonus for use with a targeting
computer.


>> ROF bonus +10
>
> I get only +7 RoF bonus per laser, or +8 (maybe +9) for a standard
> "triple laser" turret.  Are you grouping them into larger batteries?

The point defense lasers I built could easily attain that ROF bonus. 
Since lasers in a single turret cannot target different targets, most
Point defense scenarios I had were such that you had a triple turret
firing three lasers at its target.  I will see if I can dig up my archived
copy of the point defense lasers.  But +10 is not hard to achieve :)


>> Total modifiers:
>> 12+ 32 + 6 + 10 + 10 + 2 - 39 = 72-39 = 32
>
> Pretty close; I get between 24-37 depending upon circumstances; 32 is
> fine.
>
>
>> Rolling an average of 10 on 3d6 means that you will have succeeded by
>> 22.  Number of missiles successfully engaged in that round will be
>> equal to  round((22-3)/2,0) or 19/2 rounded up or 10.
>
> It's rather odd to see a turret that fires only 1 shot per 20 seconds
> take out 10 missiles in the 15-30 seconds it takes the missiles to
> cross the last half-hex, but them's the rules :(

Minor thoughts: part of that +10 bonus for Point defense comes of the fact
that the missiles attempting to hit you have to come in from a specific
"region".  This region is a relatively small cone that gets smaller the
closer those missiles come to you.  But you are correct.  There should be
a MAX number of targets that can be engaged by a single laser group per
turn equal to the max number of shots a single laser in the grouping and
put out in a turn.


>> If more than 10 are inbound, he stops 10 and the rest hit.
>
> That's the problem.  Dton-for-dton, there will always be more than 10
> incoming missiles per defending turret using any sane launcher and
> guidance design.  A million points of impact damage per turret
> *really* hurts.

Using the concept that the current weapon systems are designed to operate
against the current enemy weapon technology - try using the GURPS
TRAVELLER missile designs first.  Then do an analysis of weapons in the
TRAVELLER universe.  If you can see where there is an improved methodology
for weapons, post it and we can argue the merits and/or improve any
oversights.  I am still flabberghasted that no one ever noticed that the
FAST drug makes a FAR better alternative for cheap travel than does a
freeze tube!

  But that is another story ;)



--__--__--

Message: 8
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] T20 background question
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 10:29:39 +0100
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

>
> Martin replied:
> >>What is the TL of  the Imperium & the Terran Confederation in the
> >>Year 1000 setting of T20?
> >
> >The Impeirum is TL 14 mostly, with Tl 15 just creeping in over the last
> few
> >years.
>
> OK, this one's got me puzzled, I'll give a serious reply now.


Ooops. Sorry "best tech in the Imperium is mostly TL 14, with 15 creeping
in". Average is lower..


--__--__--

Message: 9
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Jump governor
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 10:30:44 +0100
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com


> I don't see these in High Guard - IMTU, they don't exist.  If
> a Jump-4 ship jumps 2 parsecs, they only use 2 parsecs worth
> of fuel.
>
> What was the last canon word on this subject, if any?

Marc's last statement (and confirmed to me in a question I asked a while
ago) was that if you have J-3 fuel and you J-1, you only use J1 of fuel 
up.


--__--__--

Message: 10
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 12:06:33 +0200 (MEST)
From: Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Taxes
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Anthony Jackson writes:
>In Striker, the implication is that the imperial military tax is simply 
1/3
>of the planet's total military expenditure (with another 1/3 going to the
>subsector fleet, so the world only keeps 1/3 for personal forces).

Incorrect. It's 30% of total military expenditure that goes to the
Imperium with 70% retained for local use. The 30% is divided between
regular and subsector forces. I used to be convinced that somewhere I had
seen a canonical statement to the effect that these Imperial military
taxes were split 50/50 between regular and subsector forces (so 15% to
each), but I've been trying to track down the reference for a while with
no luck, so I'm beginning to doubt. Maybe I made it up myself (anyone who
can come up with the reference will earn my undying gratitude ;-).



Hans


--__--__--

Message: 11
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 20:19:01 +1000
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] The big fleet debate
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Ok, that's reasonable.  Now, let's look at a point defense system:

> 9 x rE cell, good for 50 shots: 0.09T, $90k

I get $180k, but that doesn't matter much.

> Dedicated Macroframe: 0.25T, $50k, complexity 11

I get $100k and Complexity 10 at TL12.  It's not hardened, but that's
not likely to be a problem except in really unusual situations.


> Targeting +12: $512k (but probably gets a bulk discoute)

I get $256k, and I agree about the bulk discount ;) However, I can
only seem to fit a $128k +11 program in the macroframe.


> with the Vehicles system beam weapons in space have no Acc cap,

However, in the Vehicles rules maximum accuracy bonus is limited to
Gunnery skill, in this case 25.  There's no point in aiming more than
one second.  That gives you a base of 50 (51 since you can miss by one
and still hit).


> The missile is being fired at one second before impact

You'd better make that at least two seconds else the now unguided
missile will still hit your ship.  You need to do a *lot* more damage
to annihilate it.  (In fact, if there are a lot of missiles, you might
find it very hard to dodge all the "dead" ones...)

That doesn't change the basic to-hit number by much, it's 15- instead
of 16-.  Continuing the progression out to the 1/2D limit, I also get
an average of about 8 missiles killed.

It's a good thing I didn't put thermal superconductors in their
armour ;)


> Hm...that's actually worse than I realized.  Oh well, if they send a
> really big swarm of missiles at you simply dump a canister round in
> front of them.

How *big* a canister round?

You need to disable the missiles about 600 miles out, and they will
probably be approaching from a region 200 miles across at that
distance.  Your canister must disperse about ten trillion objects of
sufficient size to reliably disable a missile, just to cut the numbers
in half.

A 20 MJ x-ray pulse is barely enough to penetrate the DR, so I'll use
that to derive an estimate of particle size required.  At 500 km/s,
that works out to a mass of about 0.16 grams, which I will round down
to 0.1 grams to give some benefit of the doubt to the defending side.

Each canister must thus have a mass of about a million tonnes.  You
would actually need a few times that to account for dispersion.


Your countermissile idea was better.  I've designed and played it
using Vehicles rules, and it is a highly reliable system for
intercepting missiles.

It would probably fail horribly when faced with a "silent launch" from
an untracked ship though.  In my Vehicles test of this scenario, most
of the missiles weren't detected until about 10 seconds before impact.
Even with an immediate launch at 30 gees, they couldn't intercept the
missiles at a safe distance.  In such a case, lasers are about the
only option -- and even then, not a good one.


- Tim

--__--__--

Message: 12
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 01:45:33 PST
Organization: Shadownet
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

In mail you write:

>> >That's John Milius.
>> 
>> So it is . . . he still should have directed Starship Troopers.
>> 
>> LKW
>
> Anyone _OTHER_ than Verhoeven should have directed Starship Troopers.

Yeah, but if he directed Red Dawn, he *definitely* makes the short list.


-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


--__--__--

Message: 13
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 20:37:58 +1000
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] mines
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Terry Carlino wrote:
[2D maps vs 3D maps]
> What has that to do with anything. A det-laser mine that can fire
> across a 10,000 mile hex, can fire across a 10,000 sphere.

The difference is in how many you need.  A typical interplanetary
"traffic lane" would be a few million miles wide (say 5 million).  On
a 2-D map, you only need 500 mines which is expensive but probably
doable.  On a 3D map you need 250,000 -- that's almost certain to
break your budget given how much they cost each.

Note that I'm not saying mines are ineffective in general, I was
commenting in the thread that started with an attacker trying to use
them to destroy interplanetary commerce.  I don't think that will work
well enough to be worthwhile.


> After doing some searching on my hard drive I find that actual range
> is more like 9 hexes, so in a three dimensional game that would be a
> sphere 180,000 miles across.

9 hexes range is a lot better.  You only need about 800 to cover that
traffic lane. 


> I think the best system we came up with was one where the mines were
> controlled by either a controlling sensor platform or a ship. This
> makes the mines smaller and cheaper. The sensors "paint" the target
> for the passive sensors on the mines to pick up.

Yes, that rings a bell.  Again, more effective in 2D than 3D, but
useful for covering the space near a planet or other "small" area.


> Part of the point would be to force ships attempting to traverse the
> area to slow down, use sensors and weapons to clear the mine
> field. This alone would make them detectable to opposing craft.

I've not found detection of enemy craft to be much of a problem in my
test-bed runs.  Usually the side with mines controls the system, sees
the jump flash of any intruder, and can track everything they
subsequently do.

Maybe I'm just lacking battle experience against other people.  Is
avoiding detection by the defender a possibility in most people's
scenarios?


- Tim

--__--__--

Message: 14
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 20:42:57 +1000
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] The big fleet debate
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

David P. Summers wrote:
> What is the view toward using nukes for point defense?

My first thought would be "Is it worthwhile?"

Politically, I suspect it lies in a murky area.  In practice, I
suspect that the advantages of using nuclear weapons for defense
aren't sufficient to be worth the chance that the other side might
take it as a sign that it's OK for them to use nukes in offense.

I can see very clear advantages to using nukes offensively...


- Tim

--__--__--

Message: 15
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 20:44:12 +1000
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] The big fleet debate
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Terry Carlino wrote:
> The only reason I can think of is to allow you to self destruct the
> missile if necessary.

Yes, I guess that makes sense.  Thanks :)


- Tim

--__--__--

Message: 16
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 04:14:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Cessna <graymask1120@yahoo.com>
To: TML <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: [TML] Ad campaign......
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Just a thought for an InstellArms catalog:

http://www.missilesandfirecontrol.com/our_products/antiarmor.html

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

--__--__--

Message: 17
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Organization: Babel and Chaos
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 00:03:47 +1200
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Mines
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

On 6 Aug 2002 at 17:43, Timothy Little wrote:

> Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > No, I forgot to mention that this model can run the sensor and brain 
> > for 7 days.
> 
> Phew, that's quite a bit better.  You're right about the huge drain
> for PEMS though.  Aren't they meant to be *passive* sensors?

Yeah. I think they must use valves in their signal processor, or 
something. :)

> > Perhaps a CAPTOR style sensor platform with a number of small missiles 

> > on board would be a workable comprimise, though it'd start getting 
> > expensive real quick, and it wouldn't be long before most design 
> > committees turned it into a small battle-station by adding point 
> > defence, etc. I'm sure.
> 
> I strongly suspect so, yes.  Trouble is, they'd probably be right :(
> Maybe small mines aren't viable in FF&S?

It depends what for. That first design I posted was only 1 m^3 in 
volume, and would be quite hard to avoid, I think. the 3 G-turns of 
fuel it had is enough to guarantee that it can get into firing position 
of anything that comes within 60,000km or so (a turn in TNE is 30 
minutes, and a hex 30,000km).

By ditching the rocket the volume can be brought down to 0.6 m^3 and 
the cost to MCr1.423 at TL15, but then the mine can only attack craft 
that come into its hex - within 10-15,000km or so. I tried taking off 
the Electromagnetic Masking (EMM), but that didn't save any significant 
space, money or power.

Actually playing around I see that if a fusion reactor of minimum size 
is put in (assuming TL15 that's 0.1 m^3 and 0.6MW) you can still have 
the basic 1 m^3 mine, and about 4 months fuel, with no noticeable 
increase in cost. In fact the limit to performance suddenly bocomes 
surface area on which to mount the PEMS.

Thus:

TL Guidance Vol Mass AV MCr   G-Turns Warhead Hits Damage  Range
15 Full-Ind 1   1.26 3  1.547 3/3     50kt    1D6  1/14-43 0

Comm Sensor Signatures     Asset
10L  1P     +4/+3/+4/+3/+1 4/8

with a duration for the sensor and brain of 4 months.

Or, for a bigger job:

TL Guidance Vol Mass AV MCr   G-Turns Warhead Hits Damage  Range
15 Full-Ind 7   8.48 3  7.434 3/3     500kt   1D6  1/25-79 0

Comm Sensor Signatures     Asset
10L  5P     +4/+3/+4/+3/+1 6/16

This thing has a short range of 150,000km for its PEMS and a maximum of 
1,200,000km and a year's fuel for the fusion plant that powers its 
sensor and brain (the same plant as the little 'um uses, BTW). It has a 
fairly weak motor because it's still got a crappy little EAPlaC solid 
fuel rocket instead of a nice HEPlaR or thruster system. This way it's 
not sensitive to issues version or canon the same way (FWIW).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


--__--__--

Message: 18
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 08:08:27 -0400
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

>I am of the view that we are not going very far as a species 
>until we manage to get our act together on Earth and solve 
>the seemingly insurmountable problems - of our own doing - 
>facing us. Even interplanetary travel on any significant 
>scale is just not going to happen unless we instigate a 
>paradigm shift in the way we behave towards each other and
>towards life in general. Is it unreasonable to assume that 
>any sentient species that gains control of its environment 
>has to learn to curb exponential growth and a corresponding 
>exponential increase in the demand for resources? Only once 
>this hurdle is overcome will the ability to harness the 
>resources of a single solar system and the ability to travel 
>to other solar systems be developed.

This is the Sagan hypothesis - that sufficiently advanced 
alien life forms will have learned to be "peaceful".  There 
is no reason that this has to be so.  If a warlike species 
came to be dominated by a single high tech faction, through 
limited nuclear war and genocidal action, and used this high 
technology to permanently dominate and subjugate its 
population, it would survive its birth into a nuclear age and 
birth into a starfaring age.

Sufficiently advanced technology makes life on an airless 
rockball possible - why would such a species need to preserve 
its wildlife? 

It is simply not logical to conclude that we must get our act 
together in some peaceful manner.  All that is required is 
that we get our act together - and this could be done today 
by the United States, largely through the use of force.  We 
could solve many problems at once - the population problem, 
the poverty of the third world, the source of most terrorists 
around the world, religions that are inimical to US goals, up 
and coming governments that will consume resources to no good 
end - imagine the tyranny of technological might that could 
annihilate several billion people in a few weeks, and spend 
the world's resources on going to the stars.

A peaceful Sagan-like world that ran across a violent world 
where both were capable of building antimatter rockets would 
be annihilated by the violent world in the time it took for 
the rockets to cross the distance.  The peaceful would die 
with startled looks on their faces as the radars showed the 
near-C projectiles coming in.

Scary, isn't it?  But I think that across the stars, this is 
the far more likely scenario.  Sagan was a dreamer, a wishful 
thinker whose idea of transgression was cheating on his wife.

When I see pictures of children overseas holding AK-47s, I 
see a future where alien races are holding antimatter rockets 
and near-C rocks.  Same picture.  It's not a good idea to 
shout, "Here I am!" in a jungle like that.
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

--__--__--

Message: 19
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 08:19:15 -0400
From: knightsky@juno.com
Subject: [TML] GURPS Interstellar Wars
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Many of you have probably already run across this, but for those who
haven't, check out Evil Stevie's Daily Illuminator
(http://www.sjgames.com/ill/) for the 8/6/02 entry.


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"




________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

--__--__--

Message: 20
From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] GURPS Interstellar Wars
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 08:43:47 -0500
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

> Many of you have probably already run across this, but for those who
> haven't, check out Evil Stevie's Daily Illuminator
> (http://www.sjgames.com/ill/) for the 8/6/02 entry.

I hadn't see it yet, but it does sound interesting.  The only thing
I hope is that this doesn't mean they are abandoning their alternate
history.

They have just gotten to the cusp of 1120 and actually having history
move forward.  It will be quite disappointing if instead history just
stops at 1120 as they abandon it for the Interstellar Wars.

Mike West

--__--__--

Message: 21
From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>
To: "'tml@travellercentral.com'" <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] The cloak
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 10:40:25 -0400 
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

I once ran through the Maxcy dorm parking lot at USC wearing only sneakers
and a Spuds McKenzie beach towel around my neck (yelling "SCIENCE!" at the
top of my lungs for reasons that now escape me)...does that count as 
wearing
a cloak? 

--__--__--

Message: 22
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 09:10:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

David Shayne writes:

> Standard densities. With Earth = 1. Doesn't look so horibly wrong now
> does it? 

Ok, that's not as bad. 

--__--__--

Message: 23
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 09:17:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

David P. Summers writes:

> You are assuming close packed spheres.

Actually, I'm assuming a flat 'shell' of fighters.  Volume covered is 
actually
third order in range.
> ground per sensor by moveing around).  Also, If you take sensor input 
> from multiple sensors and combine them, it is possible to generate 
> detection of things that couldn't be detected within the range of 
> anyone sensor.

GURPS doesn't really cover array sensors (if you're going to apply that 
bit of
realism, there's a lot of other realism tweaks you can make as well), but
interferometry really isn't going to help much with deep space detection, 
as
(a) it mostly improves resolution, not sensitivity, and (b) it massively
reduces coverage, meaning you're likely to miss objects entirely due to 
looking
in the wrong direction.
 
>  Lastly, the advantage that a fighter gives only its 
> own position, and not that of the capital ship, if it is caught first 
> is non-trivial

If stealth were particularly meaningful or interesting in space, sure.  In
practice, having multiple small ships just guarantees you'll be spotted, 
due to
other quirks in the sensor rules.


--__--__--

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


End of TML Digest





Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 18:46:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Tue Aug  6 17:46:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
References: <200208070000.MFJ02183@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D506907.B582A8E7@mindspring.com>

"John T. Kwon" wrote:
> 
> alan spik says
> <snip the enlisted view of the change of command>
> 
> the sergeant major kept me and a couple of other guys in the
> rear of the formation.  we were supposed to watch out for
> people about to fall out, and as discreetly as possible, move
> forward and get them out of formation.
> 
> hot sun, standing in one place for a long time, etc...
> ________________
> FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

I don't think the Navy was that organized. Read with amusement Doug's
post about marching. At every CoC I attended, we were given a time to be
there. We were expected to, and did meander our way over and meet the
Chief who would tell us where to stand. Usually a big gaggle(Pod?), then
the Master Chief would come out and make everyone straiten up in ranks,
and the show would get started about thirty minutes later. I remember
several people falling out.

-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
If you can't convince them, confuse them.
                -Harry S. Truman

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 19:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 18:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
Message-ID: <OFEF204F0E.98F09E48-ONCA256C0E.00054E5A@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Steven wrote:
>(Incidentally, I remember there being a single 1-point TL 16 unit in
>=46FW, which I always assumed to be the player characters!)

ROFL! Better chalk up a keyboard kill for that one!

I can just picture the group in my mind - a bunch of unruly, slavering 
warmongers, weighed down with all those nasty weapons and ammo that they 
couldn't possibly carry in Real Life, propbably tooling down the street in 
a Lancer, and who are they?

PCs!!

"Fear Them!!"

(...and players reckon they can't change the course of major events! ;-))
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 19:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 18:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <6c.205466db.2a81ce42@aol.com>

>Keeping in mind that it's been a while...
>
>A Naval change of command reflects the fact that the Captain of the
>vessel/unit/whatever IS the vessel/unit/whatever. 

A Hollywood version of the change of command (and a damned good performance 
by Humphrey Bogart) can be seen in THE CAINE MUTINY. A great movie, and an 
interesting approach to the US Navy in WWII, albeit not as historically 
accurate as it could be.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 19:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 18:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
Message-ID: <cb.263b55e1.2a81d002@aol.com>

>Jeff D. Greenly" says
><snip naval change of command>
>
>Don't forget - the outgoing commander has to do an inventory 
>with the new commander, and the new commander gets to sign 
>for the ship and all of the equipment in it.

Naval JAG: So what happened to the three 15" guns that used to in the aft 
turret?
Captain: What 15" guns? This is a destroyer!
Naval JAG: The ones in the property book you signed for when you took 
command. I'm afraid we can't allow you to retire until those are paid for . . 
. 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 19:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 18:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
Message-ID: <40.21dfb589.2a81d093@aol.com>

--part1_40.21dfb589.2a81d093_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

>Naval JAG: So what happened to the three 15" guns that used to in the aft 
>turret?
>Captain: What 15" guns? This is a destroyer!
>Naval JAG: The ones in the property book you signed for when you took 
>command. I'm afraid we can't allow you to retire until those are paid for . 
. 

Heh. Anyone remember the classic SF story "Allamagoosa?"

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

--part1_40.21dfb589.2a81d093_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt;Naval JAG: So what happened to the three 15" guns that used to in the aft 
<BR>&gt;turret?
<BR>&gt;Captain: What 15" guns? This is a destroyer!
<BR>&gt;Naval JAG: The ones in the property book you signed for when you took 
<BR>&gt;command. I'm afraid we can't allow you to retire until those are paid for . . 
<BR>
<BR>Heh. Anyone remember the classic SF story "Allamagoosa?"
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_40.21dfb589.2a81d093_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 19:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 18:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <OFD36DEE2F.D870CE31-ONCA256C0E.00093695@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

>From Jesse & Doug:
>>>What about artists?  ;)
>>
>>Back in your hole, polygon boy!  When we want something from you, we'll 
do
>>the usual thing.  Toss a contract and art specs in your cage and pray 
you
>>don't ruin our finely crafted prose with your "art."
>
>No more grav tanks you Penguin Boy ;)
>
>And that should read:
>"When we want something from you, we'll do the usual thing.  *At the last 
minute,* toss >a contract and, *if you're lucky*, art specs in your cage 
and pray you don't ruin our >finely crafted prose with your "art."

Love it! Some friendly banter between Penguin Boy and The Polygon Kid.

I'm settling down with some popcorn.

;-)  ;-)

(BTW Jesse, when your next page update going to happen? %^)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 19:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 18:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <OFBDFF848E.6EC3E744-ONCA256C0E.0009E3EB@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Leonard wrote:
>If we can't follow our own laws except when it is convenient, we are
>all at the mercy of anybody in a position of authorty.

Welcome to the "rule of men, not laws".

BTW, did you receive the Straker Theme I sent over?

BTW #2, the mailer seems to be adding multiple copies of selected mail 
items to the digest. Is anyone in non-digest mode experiencing the same 
thing?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 20:19:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Tue Aug  6 19:19:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <40.21dfb589.2a81d093@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020806211959.00a6ea80@minn.net>

At 09:23 PM 8/6/2002 EDT, Jon F. Zeigler wrote:
>>Naval JAG: So what happened to the three 15" guns that used to in the aft  
>>turret? 
>>Captain: What 15" guns? This is a destroyer! 
>>Naval JAG: The ones in the property book you signed for when you took  
>>command. I'm afraid we can't allow you to retire until those are paid for
>. .  
> 
>Heh. Anyone remember the classic SF story "Allamagoosa?" 

Has anyone seen the offog?


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 20:25:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Aug  6 19:25:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <m3sn1yqp9b.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20806.173519.2Q3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
>>
>> Perhaps captured officers (or at least gentlebeings) are even given
>> their parole.
>
> How exactly does this work?  Does one promise not to fight against
> one's captor ever again, or simply for a time period, or until the end
> of the current engagement, or until one has journeyed back home,
> or...?  I've considered it pretty rotten that US soldiers are not
> allowed to give their parole and get back home, but perhaps that's
> just me.

Actually, in the Napoleonic era, "giving your parole" could be far more
limited. For example, it would let you wander about the base you were
being kept at without an escort. You'd have agreed to not try to escape
or to damage anything.

The sort that would get you released would likely involve not fighting
against them again during that war. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 20:34:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 19:34:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <OFBA2D763C.F2E139E2-ONCA256C0E.000A4049@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

David Smart wrote:
>Do you know how difficult it is for me to NOT
>print T-shirts of his stuff for personal use?

I'd been thinking about this for a while, too. A copyright question that I 
don't know the answer to is, "Is it 'fair use' if I put a Jesse picture on 
ONE T-Shirt for my own use?"

The alternative I thought of was asking Jesse for permission to make _two_ 
shirts, and sending him the second one as "payment". ;-)

Jesse, your thoughts?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 20:35:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dave Strebe)
Date: Tue Aug  6 19:35:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
References: <40.21dfb589.2a81d093@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002901c23db6$2a3bcea0$6401a8c0@vs.shawcable.net>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--Boundary_(ID_pKnSt/fCjzOf2fxs/cwTgA)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

That the one with the 'disappearing ships dog'.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JFZeigler@aol.com 
  To: tml@travellercentral.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 6:23 PM
  Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Silly Question


  >Naval JAG: So what happened to the three 15" guns that used to in the aft 
  >turret? 
  >Captain: What 15" guns? This is a destroyer! 
  >Naval JAG: The ones in the property book you signed for when you took 
  >command. I'm afraid we can't allow you to retire until those are paid for . . 

  Heh. Anyone remember the classic SF story "Allamagoosa?" 

  ---------- 
  Jon F. Zeigler 
  Line Editor, GURPS Traveller 
  jon@sjgames.com 
  "The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events." 

--Boundary_(ID_pKnSt/fCjzOf2fxs/cwTgA)
Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2716.2200" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>That the one with the 'disappearing ships 
dog'.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV 
  style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> 
  <A title=JFZeigler@aol.com 
  href="mailto:JFZeigler@aol.com">JFZeigler@aol.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=tml@travellercentral.com 
  href="mailto:tml@travellercentral.com">tml@travellercentral.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 06, 2002 6:23 
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [TML] Re: Silly 
  Question</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=2>&gt;Naval JAG: So what 
  happened to the three 15" guns that used to in the aft <BR>&gt;turret? 
  <BR>&gt;Captain: What 15" guns? This is a destroyer! <BR>&gt;Naval JAG: The 
  ones in the property book you signed for when you took <BR>&gt;command. I'm 
  afraid we can't allow you to retire until those are paid for . . <BR><BR>Heh. 
  Anyone remember the classic SF story "Allamagoosa?" <BR><BR>---------- <BR>Jon 
  F. Zeigler <BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller <BR>jon@sjgames.com <BR>"The 
  referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT> 
</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

--Boundary_(ID_pKnSt/fCjzOf2fxs/cwTgA)--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 20:41:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 19:41:11 2002
Subject: [TML] I reposted an entire Digest - Sorry!
Message-ID: <OF01BB50EA.68DB5AEA-ONCA256C0E.000E29B4@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

*Profound Apology*

I managed to forget to wipe out the rest of the message (ie. the entire 
contents of the digest) when I sent one of my "T20 background question" responses.

Sorry sorry sorry! (especially to those with bandwidth issues)

<shuffles off, embarrassed... mutter mutter, "swore I'd never do that!" 
mutter...>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 20:46:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Aug  6 19:46:13 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
In-Reply-To: <3d50427f.7657767@post.demon.co.uk>
References: <006301c23ce3$2bcea180$eeb18b90@computer>
 <006301c23ce3$2bcea180$eeb18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020806223905.027bbeb8@192.168.0.1>

At 10:48 PM 8/6/2002 +0000, Stephen Tempest wrote:
>"Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com> writes:
> >The counter mix from Invasion Earth might be worth studying.
>There aren't any TL15 units on either side.
>The Imperial Marines are 78% TL14 (1 division, 3 regiments) plus 2 IM
>regiments at TL12 and TL13.
>The Imperial regular army is 70% TL14, 20% TL13, 10% TL12.
>Imperial colonial forces (which account for about 30% of the total
>Imperial strength) are TL11 - TL14, with TL12 being the norm.
>Solomani regular troops are 43% TL14, 42% TL 13, 11% TL12 and 4% TL11.
>The local Terran guerrillas are all TL 13.

Ah...perfect, thanks

I wanted to come up with some light Solomani ship that would be active in 
the Rim War.
400 ton commerce raiders, transports for Commando units, that sort of thing.
Perhaps a light carrier at TL 12 carrying TL 13/14 fighters.
Just the sort of thing you want mucking around behind enemy lines....



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Firm footwork is the fount from which springs all
offense and defense." -- Giacomo diGrasse, 1570
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 21:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mosaic Tapestry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 20:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <40.21dfb589.2a81d093@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003c01c23dc2$11fe1850$2f7de40c@loki>

Allamagoosa

Eric Frank Russell (1905-1976) Born Sandhurst, Surrey. His father was in
the military and his family moved a number of times. He spent part of
his youth in Egypt and Sudan. At college, he studied a variety of
subjects including chemistry, physics and metallurgy. During WWII, he
took radio courses in London and at the Marconi College in Chelmsford,
eventually leading a small RAF mobile radio unit attached to General
Patton's army. He worked for a time in an engineering firm, published
his first novel in 1939, and later became a full-time writer. In his
later years, he gave up writing. 

Allamagoosa is, well, clever. It's fun to read, and amusing, and it's
one of those short stories with a punch line. The crew of a ship,
knowing that they're about to be audited, want to be sure there are no
discrepancies between the actual contents of their ship and the
inventory thereof. Except there *is* a discrepancy, and...I won't spoil
it for you. The Hugo winners are anthologized and pretty widely
available, and it's only a few pages long. Go ahead and read it, it'll
give you a chuckle.

Eric Frank Russell never became as famous as many of the other Hugo
Winners, but some of his novels have recently been re-issued and are
available at Amazon(1). Shadow Man: The life and works of Eric Frank
Russell(2) is a good fan site. For some reviews of some of Russell's
other works, visit this site(3).


(1)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/103-2568973-2316640
This link credits Loren with the assist at Amazon.
(2) http://www.stageleft.com.au/efr/
(3) http://ftp.logica.com/~stepneys/sf/books/r/russell.htm



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 21:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 20:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] GURPS Interstellar Wars
Message-ID: <157.120f94ca.2a81edae@aol.com>

> Many of you have probably already run across this, but for those who
> haven't, check out Evil Stevie's Daily Illuminator
> (http://www.sjgames.com/ill/) for the 8/6/02 entry.

I hadn't see it yet, but it does sound interesting.  The only thing
I hope is that this doesn't mean they are abandoning their alternate
history.

They have just gotten to the cusp of 1120 and actually having history
move forward.  It will be quite disappointing if instead history just
stops at 1120 as they abandon it for the Interstellar Wars.

The license is for BOTH the alternate universe and the Interstellar Wars 
period, and we are not going to abandon the alternate timeline. There is too 
much cool stuff that needs to see print.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 21:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 20:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: army usage
Message-ID: <159.121cd731.2a81f025@aol.com>

 >>I really think you should do some research on the situation in 
 >>Afganisthan and how everything went down before blurting things out.
 >>The main population of Afganisthan was opposed to the Taliban, which
 >>is mainly from a tribe to the south west (I think). 
 >
 >Tommy, you should do some research, too.  The Taliban was composed
 >primarily of Pakistani and Saudi volunteers who called themselves
 >"students" (of Islam).

No.  To my knowledge, on that particular point he's right.  The Taliban 
stronghold is in the large and populous tribes of southern Afghanistan.  As I 
understand it they are the largest single group of tribes and are in fact 
extensions of the tribes in Pakistan, which would be why Pakistan supported 
them.  It was Al Qaida that were "the Arabs", the foreigners.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 21:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Hamill)
Date: Tue Aug  6 20:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
In-Reply-To: <20020806190006.21475.58141.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020807034518.1959.qmail@web21510.mail.yahoo.com>

Excuse me, but does anyone happen to know the URL of
the GTS program by Thomas Bont? All the addresses I
have for it are broken, and I really need that program
yesterday. I have a chance to get a two-part GURPS:
Traveller game together, during a weekend mini-con at
the local game store, and I really need a couple of
ships fast. Well, faster than I can do them by hand,
anyway. Thanks for your help (in advance).

John
jwdh71@yahoo.com 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 21:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Aug  6 20:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <003c01c23dc2$11fe1850$2f7de40c@loki>
References: <003c01c23dc2$11fe1850$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <1028692602.3d509a7a7909e@www.paradise.net.nz>

Quoting Mosaic Tapestry <n2sami@attbi.com>:

> Eric Frank Russell never became as famous as many of the other Hugo
> Winners, but some of his novels have recently been re-issued and are
> available at Amazon(1). Shadow Man: The life and works of Eric Frank
> Russell(2) is a good fan site. For some reviews of some of Russell's
> other works, visit this site(3).

Eric Frank Russel is one of my favourite old-time SF writers. _Men, Martians 
and Machines_ and _The Great Explosion_ probably being my two favourites.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 22:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Tue Aug  6 21:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
In-Reply-To: <20020807034518.1959.qmail@web21510.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001501c23dc7$ff408580$0b01a8c0@duck>

http://webpages.charter.net/tombont/

I *love* this program.  He does take some minor liberties,
but it is more than close enough and it does the ugly stuff
for you to make your life easier.

Mike West
mjwest@caddocourt.com 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John Hamill
> Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 10:45 PM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
> 
> 
> Excuse me, but does anyone happen to know the URL of
> the GTS program by Thomas Bont? All the addresses I
> have for it are broken, and I really need that program
> yesterday. I have a chance to get a two-part GURPS:
> Traveller game together, during a weekend mini-con at
> the local game store, and I really need a couple of
> ships fast. Well, faster than I can do them by hand,
> anyway. Thanks for your help (in advance).
> 
> John
> jwdh71@yahoo.com 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
> http://health.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 22:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mosaic Tapestry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 21:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
In-Reply-To: <20020807034518.1959.qmail@web21510.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <004501c23dc8$887ca9a0$2f7de40c@loki>

You can find it midway down this page:

http://www.sjgames.com/general/gm-aids.html



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 22:14:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mosaic Tapestry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 21:14:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <1028692602.3d509a7a7909e@www.paradise.net.nz>
Message-ID: <004601c23dc8$c24f36c0$2f7de40c@loki>

Quoting Mosaic Tapestry <n2sami@attbi.com>:

> Eric Frank Russell never became as famous as many of the other Hugo

BTW, these words are not my own but were pinched from I can't remember
where on the web.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 22:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 21:26:03 2002
Subject: MT Vehicles (was: Re: [TML] Landgrab )
Message-ID: <OF72559D70.D8259EC8-ONCA256C0E.0010593F@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Peter asked:
>Does anyone have (or know of) some software  or  spreadsheet  for
>creating ground vehicles using MT rules?  I need to create  about
>a dozen different military vehicles for my Efate landgrab.

I created one, but it is a little basic and assumes you have the rules to 
plug the numbers in. (I did it years ago when I was worried about 
copyright and didn't know how to write a database spreadsheet. I still 
don't... ;-)

I downloaded one from the 'net... Ships III from Ace and The Dog's 
website. However, I can't remember if it covers vehicles. It's a bit flaky 
and can crash unexpectedly, so save often!
        http://www.ace-dog.com/downloads/downloads.htm

Would pulling a couple of designs from 101 Vehicles help? What are you 
after, specifically?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 22:50:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Hamill)
Date: Tue Aug  6 21:50:04 2002
Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
In-Reply-To: <001501c23dc7$ff408580$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <20020807044905.11399.qmail@web21510.mail.yahoo.com>

Thank you VERY much, this is a life saver. Now all I
have to do is build a couple of ships, half a dozen
PC's and about 10 NPC's by Friday. Peice of cake. :-)

--- Mike West <mjwest@caddocourt.com> wrote:
> http://webpages.charter.net/tombont/
> 
> I *love* this program.  He does take some minor
> liberties,
> but it is more than close enough and it does the
> ugly stuff
> for you to make your life easier.
> 
> Mike West
> mjwest@caddocourt.com 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> > [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf
> Of John Hamill
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 10:45 PM
> > To: tml@travellercentral.com
> > Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
> > 
> > 
> > Excuse me, but does anyone happen to know the URL
> of
> > the GTS program by Thomas Bont? All the addresses
> I
> > have for it are broken, and I really need that
> program
> > yesterday. I have a chance to get a two-part
> GURPS:
> > Traveller game together, during a weekend mini-con
> at
> > the local game store, and I really need a couple
> of
> > ships fast. Well, faster than I can do them by
> hand,
> > anyway. Thanks for your help (in advance).
> > 
> > John
> > jwdh71@yahoo.com 
> > 
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
> > http://health.yahoo.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > TML mailing list
> > TML@travellercentral.com
> >
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> > 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 22:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Tue Aug  6 21:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
In-Reply-To: <20020807044905.11399.qmail@web21510.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001601c23dce$de6fa050$0b01a8c0@duck>

When you click down, please also take note of the GURPS Character Maker.
That should help with the second part.  :-)

Oh, and I forgot to mention in the first message that it seems he
renamed the program to GURPS Modular Vehicles (GMV).  The link on the 
SJG site references a slightly older version that is still called GTS.

Mike West
mjwest@caddocourt.com 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John Hamill
> Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 11:49 PM
> To: Mike West
> Cc: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: RE: [TML] GTS-the program
> 
> 
> Thank you VERY much, this is a life saver. Now all I
> have to do is build a couple of ships, half a dozen
> PC's and about 10 NPC's by Friday. Peice of cake. :-)
> 
> --- Mike West <mjwest@caddocourt.com> wrote:
> > http://webpages.charter.net/tombont/
> > 
> > I *love* this program.  He does take some minor
> > liberties,
> > but it is more than close enough and it does the
> > ugly stuff
> > for you to make your life easier.
> > 
> > Mike West
> > mjwest@caddocourt.com 
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> > > [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf
> > Of John Hamill
> > > Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 10:45 PM
> > > To: tml@travellercentral.com
> > > Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Excuse me, but does anyone happen to know the URL
> > of
> > > the GTS program by Thomas Bont? All the addresses
> > I
> > > have for it are broken, and I really need that
> > program
> > > yesterday. I have a chance to get a two-part
> > GURPS:
> > > Traveller game together, during a weekend mini-con
> > at
> > > the local game store, and I really need a couple
> > of
> > > ships fast. Well, faster than I can do them by
> > hand,
> > > anyway. Thanks for your help (in advance).
> > > 
> > > John
> > > jwdh71@yahoo.com 
> > > 
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
> > > http://health.yahoo.com
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > TML mailing list
> > > TML@travellercentral.com
> > >
> >
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> > > 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
> http://health.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 23:00:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Tue Aug  6 22:00:05 2002
Subject: [TML] GURPS Interstellar Wars
In-Reply-To: <157.120f94ca.2a81edae@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001701c23dcf$39dd3c40$0b01a8c0@duck>

> > Many of you have probably already run across this, but for those who
> > haven't, check out Evil Stevie's Daily Illuminator
> > (http://www.sjgames.com/ill/) for the 8/6/02 entry.
>
> I hadn't see it yet, but it does sound interesting.  The only thing
> I hope is that this doesn't mean they are abandoning their alternate
> history.
> ----------------
>
> The license is for BOTH the alternate universe and the Interstellar Wars
> period, and we are not going to abandon the alternate timeline. There is
too
> much cool stuff that needs to see print.
>
> LKW

I figured this was the case, but just wanted to make sure.  Thank you
for the quick response.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 23:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Hamill)
Date: Tue Aug  6 22:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
In-Reply-To: <001601c23dce$de6fa050$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <20020807053026.71876.qmail@web21501.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Mike West <mjwest@caddocourt.com> wrote:
> When you click down, please also take note of the
> GURPS Character Maker.
> That should help with the second part.  :-)

Thanks, already seen and acquired, er, liberated, er
downloaded, yeah, that's it. :-)

> Oh, and I forgot to mention in the first message
> that it seems he
> renamed the program to GURPS Modular Vehicles (GMV).
>  The link on the 
> SJG site references a slightly older version that is
> still called GTS.
> 
> Mike West
> mjwest@caddocourt.com 

Thanks, I saw that too, I think he had done that after
he added the modular grav vehicle rules, much crunchy
goodness.

John
jwdh71@yahoo.com
 
> > 
> > 
> > Thank you VERY much, this is a life saver. Now all
> I
> > have to do is build a couple of ships, half a
> dozen
> > PC's and about 10 NPC's by Friday. Peice of cake.
> :-)
> > 
> > --- Mike West <mjwest@caddocourt.com> wrote:
> > > http://webpages.charter.net/tombont/
> > > 
> > > I *love* this program.  He does take some minor
> > > liberties,
> > > but it is more than close enough and it does the
> > > ugly stuff
> > > for you to make your life easier.
> > > 
> > > Mike West
> > > mjwest@caddocourt.com 
> > > 
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > 
> > > > Excuse me, but does anyone happen to know the
> URL
> > > of
> > > > the GTS program by Thomas Bont? All the
> addresses
> > > I
> > > > have for it are broken, and I really need that
> > > program
> > > > yesterday. I have a chance to get a two-part
> > > GURPS:
> > > > Traveller game together, during a weekend
> mini-con
> > > at
> > > > the local game store, and I really need a
> couple
> > > of
> > > > ships fast. Well, faster than I can do them by
> > > hand,
> > > > anyway. Thanks for your help (in advance).
> > > > 
> > > > John
> > > > jwdh71@yahoo.com 
> > > > 
> > > >
> __________________________________________________
> > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
> > > > http://health.yahoo.com
> > > >
> _______________________________________________
> > > > TML mailing list
> > > > TML@travellercentral.com
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> > > > 



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 23:45:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Clint Rynners)
Date: Tue Aug  6 22:45:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
Message-ID: <OFDEC7001F.B4AA8375-ON42256C0E.001D1133@ko.com>

"Sufficiently advanced technology makes life on an airless
rockball possible - why would such a species need to preserve
its wildlife?"

Mr Kwon

I wondered about that myself, but had no ready answers, not being a
biologist. I partially agree that we would not need to preserve our
wildlife, but I believe that we need biomass in some form to survive.
Perhaps not as complex a system as we currently have on Earth, but in some
form that provides life support for us. We could speculate that an advanced
species could move beyond biological dependency - living as complex pieces
of code in a virtual reality, or in more robust machine forms. However, I
do think that before we reach this stage, we are going to remain dependent
on a biological system that we poorly understand and which we have severely
damaged. I am not a rabid vegan greeny, but I do believe that we have to
change the way we do things before we can marshal the resources to expand
off our world.

"If a warlike species
came to be dominated by a single high tech faction, through
limited nuclear war and genocidal action, and used this high
technology to permanently dominate and subjugate its
population, it would survive its birth into a nuclear age and
birth into a starfaring age."

Your contention that the solution to problems caused by exponential growth
does not have to be peaceful has merit,  I just don't believe that it will
happen with humanity now. At this stage of our global society, where one
power possibly has the military lead necessary to take the path you
suggest, the will is no longer there. This has something to do with a
hangover from the horrors that were visited on the world over the past 50
years. I do believe that if the USA mobilised fully, it could impose a
single world government, but I think the cost would be terrible.

Could it turned out differently? Possibly, but I don't have the frame of
reference for seeing this. In the one example we have to go on, a single
power has never had such a clear lead that an attempt at global control
would not  have entailed a great risk to the extermination of humanity. I
also note that the great warmongering empires have not persisted for very
long when they attempted to impose their version of manifest destiny on the
world. If you belong to a warmongering species, your opponents are not
going to roll over and play dead.

Having said all this, if sentient life is fairly widespread in our
universe, then the probability of of your scenario occuring could be high,
and likely to have advanced very far already. To misquote Fermi: "Where are
they" then? Even if your warmongering species exists, I retain my
contention that we would be regarded as more of a curiosity than a threat.
We are far more likely to be harvested in some way than simply
exterminated.

Regards

Clint Rynners

ps. after a flurry of typing, I read my response and note that rather than
being focused, it is a meander between a number of different ideas. I hope
it is at least slightly understandable :)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 00:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Tue Aug  6 23:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <20020807020627.6743406c80f7471790ae6758c061e780.in@keywest.kennett.net>

<snip good info.>

Thanks.  Anybody can provide with how the Royal Navy does it?  Has the USN
changed anything from the afore-explained procedure? 

>I think that because the Imperial Navy has such a long history, it
>probably has a lot of cool traditions. Anything that you threw in for
>color, like Marines in some traditional dress uniforms standing behind
>the "quarterdeck", the transfer of a baton, staff or whistle, maybe a
>reading of the ship's history...

Oddly enough....I ask this question because I was busy plotting a story and
realized that I, despite knowing a bit about military, military history,
military life, and military tech, suffered from some gapping holes in my
knowledge base.  That was one of it.

Thanks,

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

 My Sale List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
 My Want List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 00:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue Aug  6 23:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <20020807054503.7786.43314.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentra
 l.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020807234111.009faa50@mailhost.efn.org>

> >Heh. Anyone remember the classic SF story "Allamagoosa?"
>
>Has anyone seen the offog?

"Please describe how official dog Peaslake came apart under gravitational 
stress..."


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 01:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Wed Aug  7 00:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <OFDEC7001F.B4AA8375-ON42256C0E.001D1133@ko.com>
Message-ID: <3D5174AB.19191.F0AB707@localhost>

On 7 Aug 2002, at 7:47, Clint Rynners wrote:

> I wondered about that myself, but had no ready answers, not being a
> biologist. I partially agree that we would not need to preserve our
> wildlife, but I believe that we need biomass in some form to survive.

At the current rates of extinction, somewhere between every six months 
and two years (depending on which biologist you listen to) we destroy one 
undiscovered medicine.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 02:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Wed Aug  7 01:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : OK, Now What?
Message-ID: <000801c23de9$3cfa8300$c69c67cb@robert>

John Kwon wrote:-
> First I keep reading that plasma weapons are not possible -
> the bolt would dissipate a short distance from the barrel.  
<snip>

One potential problem was with dissipation, the other with
the ridiculous energies required (there's a good line in 'Guns, Guns,
Guns'
comparing PGMP-like weapons to Bangalore torpedoes...)

There's been a lot of recent research into ball lightning. Maybe a
militarily useful amount of plasma can be packaged in this way.

Another alternative (as recently seen on rec.arts.sf.science) are
weapons
that fire very small projectiles (~1 gram mass) at high (10s of
kilometers/sec) velocities. These will leave plasma trails as they zip
through the air...


Robert O'Connor
Medico, gamer


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 02:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed Aug  7 01:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Spam Spam Spam Spam...
In-Reply-To: <19d.66884a1.2a7f37e7@aol.com>
References: <19d.66884a1.2a7f37e7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020807105440.0a18f64c.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Sun, 04 Aug 2002 22:07:35 -0400 (EDT)
GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:

> I would expect that any planet in Solomani space settled by Hawaiians would 
> either create or import vast amounts.  How widespread it would get really 
> depends on shelf-life and the viability of swine off Terra. It may just be 
> that pigs just don't taste the same when raised elsewhere, and so all Spam 
> comes from Terra...

Although very oddd, this would make SPAM a luxury product for offworlders...

Come to think of it, most products that come from special places are not considered luxuries there, but they probably are at other locations.

Groat Musk Perfume would be a nasty thing to hit the PCs with...  ;-)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 02:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed Aug  7 01:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] adventure
In-Reply-To: <1ac.6380721.2a7f37b7@aol.com>
References: <1ac.6380721.2a7f37b7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020807105753.493c4a62.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Sun, 04 Aug 2002 22:06:47 -0400 (EDT)
Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> Traveller Adventure: Comet Busters
> 
> For referees only.  If you intend to play this adventure, quit reading now 
> and direct your game referee to this page. 

*sound of harddrive saving file*

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 03:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Wed Aug  7 02:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: army usage
In-Reply-To: <159.121cd731.2a81f025@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D5193C8.30462.F843FC6@localhost>

On 6 Aug 2002, at 23:38, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:


>  >Tommy, you should do some research, too.  The Taliban was composed
>  >primarily of Pakistani and Saudi volunteers who called themselves
>  >"students" (of Islam).

> No.  To my knowledge, on that particular point he's right.  The Taliban 
> stronghold is in the large and populous tribes of southern Afghanistan.  As I
> understand it they are the largest single group of tribes and are in fact
> extensions of the tribes in Pakistan, which would be why Pakistan supported
> them.  It was Al Qaida that were "the Arabs", the foreigners.

Without wanting to get too bogged down into the ins and outs of 
Afghanistan, everybody is wrong and everybody is right. The Taliban 
themselves drew a hard core of support from the Pashtuns (the largest 
ethnic group in Afghanistan).

However, it is a mistake to think that the Taliban were supported by the 
majority of the Afghan population. While the Pashtuns are the largest 
group, they do not form a majority; nor did the Taliban draw their support 
from even a majority of Pashtuns. But the previous rulers (later known as 
the Northern Alliance) engaged in a vicious civil war (even by the standards 
of civil wars) and into this stepped the Taliban (with considerable Pakistani 
and Al Quida support). They started to get an upper hand in the civil war 
and the various tribal warlords saw what they thought was a winner and 
lined up behind them. This created a snowball and very quickly the Taliban 
were in charge.

Fast forward a few years, the former rulers (now known as the Northern 
Alliance) are being slowly ground down. Then enter the US and other 
Western nations with lavish air and logistic support. The various tribal 
warlords see what they think is a winner, line up behind them and the 
same snowball sweeps the Taliban out of power.

Now things have reverted back to the "classic" Afghani pattern. There is a 
"King" controlling Kabul in nominal charge of the country, but the real 
control is in the hands of the various tribal warlords. You have examples 
with US officers turning up at a tribal chieftain's camp and paying him in 
gold for the use of his warriors.

ObTrav: If you can't make a decent low tech govt 0 backwater out of that, 
you just aren't trying.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 04:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug  7 03:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] GURPS MISSILE WARFARE (was The big fleet debate)
In-Reply-To: <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com> <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com> <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net> <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net> <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>

hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> One interesting development was to build a specialized targeting
> computer.

Yes, I've since realised that it is well worth it.  I had thought that
surely a dedicated mainframe or macroframe would be too expensive, but
apparently not.


> The point defense lasers I built could easily attain that ROF bonus. 

Oh, sure.  I had thought you were talking about the standard lasers.
Higher RoF really isn't worth it under the GT rules though.


> Minor thoughts: part of that +10 bonus for Point defense comes of the fact
> that the missiles attempting to hit you have to come in from a specific
> "region".

If that is the reason, the designers overlooked a very important fact:
missiles can, and will, maneuver widely in flight.  The potential
approach region could be nearly 60 degrees wide without much effect on
impact energy.

I think the +10 point defense bonus was really an attempt to model a
"wait till you see the whites of their eyes" perfect firing solution.
Basically it should just say that the range penalty is -29, instead of
range -39 with a random +10 bonus.  Even then, it should really only
be about +5, appropriate for a range of 700 miles.  It doesn't do much
good to disable a kinetic-kill missile 0.3 seconds before it hits.


>  But you are correct.  There should be a MAX number of targets that
> can be engaged by a single laser group per turn equal to the max
> number of shots a single laser in the grouping and put out in a
> turn.

More precisely, equal to how many shots one laser can fire in the time
it takes a missile to get in from the laser's max range.  That time
will almost always be much less than a turn, typically a tenth.


> Using the concept that the current weapon systems are designed to
> operate against the current enemy weapon technology - try using the
> GURPS TRAVELLER missile designs first.  Then do an analysis of
> weapons in the TRAVELLER universe.

Yes, even the standard missiles defeat equal tonnage of standard point
defense, but not by a lot.  The problem is that there is *huge* room
for improvement in the missiles, but not much room for improvement in
the lasers.


> I am still flabberghasted that no one ever noticed that the FAST
> drug makes a FAR better alternative for cheap travel than does a
> freeze tube!

I'm not particularly surprised :)

Often it takes an outside opinion to spot such things.  That's why
game designers have playtests, after all!


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 04:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug  7 03:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <3D4F3B54.62F77189@mindspring.com>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com> <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net> <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <20020805075953.A24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <3436.64.8.3.28.1028520584.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <20020805215043.E25687@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D4F3B54.62F77189@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020807204852.B31397@freeman.little-possums.net>

alan spik wrote:
> I always considered the HE as essentially a frag grenade for
> ships. A small cloud of debris having a better chance to hit.

Yeah, that works too.  Maybe that accounts for the low impact damage
of missiles in G:Traveller compared to G:Vehicles.  80% of the
fragments miss...


> Thanks for a nasty tactic. The Forinians IMMTU are going to be using
> that. I was going to have to bring in more help. I think it will be
> quite a suprise to my players.

Work out what happens if the launching ship can get a run-up of, say,
0.1 AU at 6 gees.  That's a hundred hexes per turn to begin with.  If
the player's side is jumping in to a defended system, their jump flash
will mean that the defender has a very distinct sensor advantage.

I hope it's not the player's ship that gets hit.  200,000 points of
damage per missile is not conducive to a lengthy game session 8^O


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 04:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug  7 03:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
In-Reply-To: <20020806185605.50939.qmail@web10605.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020806185605.50939.qmail@web10605.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020807205547.C31397@freeman.little-possums.net>

Daniel Burns wrote:
> Unlike GT where it seems you can spot those nasty c-rocks at a few

"Argh! Don't say that word!"

> parsecs while they are ramped up to speed,

Sure, a decade or so later when the sensor information gets to you.
It's poking along at light-speed, remember?  :)


> and be waiting for the emergence a week later which will also show
> up easily, right in the middle of your defence solution.  Oops, a
> rant? Well at least 'twas short ;)

Yes, the emergence will be noted.  Not much good that does them
though.  You godda problem wiv dat? ;)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 07:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug  7 06:35:04 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Landgrab of Vilis
Message-ID: <b027a2b020e3.b020e3b027a2@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Date: Tuesday, August 6, 2002 3:08 am
Subject: [TML] re:  Landgrab of Vilis

> >From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
> 
> >If I'm doing Vilis, I think I had better do Garda-Vilis, 
> >unless someone has already done that one.
> 
> That's Tanoose to you, apologist scum!
> 
> This message has been brought to you by the Tanoose Freedom League.


IMTU, as long as the 1199th Infantry Regiment (Jump) (Commando) is 
stationed there, it's Garda-Vilis, thank you very much. ;-)

<<snip disclaimer>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 07:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed Aug  7 06:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D39@USCHM203>

>Leonard Erickson wrote:

>But shooting prisoners or mistreating them is against our *laws*. Which
>is one reason why a number of folks are more that a bit upswet about
>the fact that at the current time we are *violating* our own laws when
>it comes to the people taken prisoner in Afghanistan and held at
>Guantanamo Bay. They haven't been accorded prisoner of war status, nor
>have they been classified as criminals awaiting trial.

>We are damaging our own legal system *badly* by doing this. And that
>and other similar things we are doing are actually more apt to destroy
>the US than the actions of the terrorists!

Actually, these men are NOT POWs. Technically we could have them summarily
executed, and it would be perfectly legal, though would upset alot of
bleeding hearts. 
Partisans, saboteurs, spies, and other irregulars, which certainly includes
terrorists, are not protected by either formal or informal Rules of War or
the Geneva Convention.
During WWII those captured were shot out of hand most of the time, and it
was not considered illegal. I can't recall a single German officer being
tried for shooting such troops (as opposed to retaliating against civilians
for the actions of partisans, which IS illegal).
Allied soldiers and civilians who participated in such covert and irregular
actions were fully aware that they would not be treated as POWs if captured.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 07:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Aug  7 06:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Landgrab of Vilis
Message-ID: <200208071346.MGL01636@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

john groth, off on an adventure, says

>IMTU, as long as the 1199th Infantry Regiment (Jump) 
>(Commando) is stationed there, it's Garda-Vilis, thank you 
>very much. ;-)
>

Mark Urbin will be doing Garda-Vilis, and we'll look into 
putting something there.  The backdrop of the Broadsword 
adventure, however, seems to be that Vilis doesn't have a 
strong military presence at Garda-Vilis, and therefore they 
hire the Broadsword and its mercenaries.

Later in the adventure, merchant ships containing a Vilis 
infantry unit arrives, so this could be the 1199th.

It's odd.  Considering the sheer number of people on Vilis, 
one might imagine that it would have infantrymen coming out 
of their ears.

Also, another oddity - Vilis seems to have a TL 12 ship in 
its navy, although Vilis is not TL 12.  Is this an obsolete 
Imperial ship purchased by Vilis?  Is this sort of thing 
common?  
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 07:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Aug  7 06:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] John Beats The Dead Horse of Imperial Rules Of War...
Message-ID: <200208071354.MGL02479@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Hurrel, Brian says
>Technically we could have them summarily executed, and it 
>would be perfectly legal, though would upset alot of
>bleeding hearts. 

In RL there is the Hague and Geneva Convention.  Plenty of RL 
canon, and lawyers who can pontificate on the subject.

In Traveller, are there distinctions between soldiers, 
combatants (non-uniformed, ad hoc non-soldiers), and non-
combatants?  Obviously, the Hague Convention idea 
that "hollow points are bad" is right out, as the Gauss rifle 
round is described as a hollowpoint.  Not to mention that 
shooting people with a plasma gun is a bit more overkill than 
shooting them with a .50 BMG.

The player characters in any Traveller party would often fall 
into the category of illegal combatant.  They aren't wearing 
a uniform, they don't belong to an official army, and aren't 
part of an officially responsible chain of command.  In a war 
zone, if they were caught fighting an official military 
force, and they surrendered, would they be considered 
prisoners of war, or would they be shot out of hand after the 
local Imperial Marine lieutenant heard his platoon sergeant's 
report?

I'm assuming, of course, that someone in the party was stupid 
enough to fire at the Marines, and that by some miracle, the 
party was not annihilated by the return fire...
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 08:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Wed Aug  7 07:04:03 2002
Subject: MT Vehicles (was: Re: [TML] Landgrab )
References: <OF72559D70.D8259EC8-ONCA256C0E.0010593F@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <000401c23e1b$85fa2ec0$5600a8c0@imogen>

Hyphen wrote:
> Peter asked:
> >Does anyone have (or know of) some software  or  spreadsheet  for
> >creating ground vehicles using MT rules?  I need to create  about
> >a dozen different military vehicles for my Efate landgrab.
> 
> I created one, but it is a little basic and assumes you have the
> rules to plug the numbers in. (I did it years ago when I was
> worried about copyright and didn't know how to write a database
> spreadsheet. I still don't... ;-)
> 
> I downloaded one from the 'net... Ships III from Ace and The Dog's 
> website. However, I can't remember if it covers vehicles. It's a
> bit flaky and can crash unexpectedly, so save often!
>         http://www.ace-dog.com/downloads/downloads.htm
> 
> Would pulling a couple of designs from 101 Vehicles help? What are
> you after, specifically?

Ships III doesn't do vehicles (according to its manual there  are
no ground vehicle drives, etc).  I have been trying  to  use  the
DOS program for vehicles from the same site but it seems to  have
major flaws (either that or my own math  is  way  off).  And  101
Vehicles doesn't have the range I need.

I'm in the process of detailing out the armed forces  of  Efate's
Regular Army for a Landgrab.  As this is  a  place  with  a  high
chance of merc adventures (think  high-tech  'Nam  in  Traveller)
this detail seems more important than with  other  Landgrabs.  So
far I have a need for an MBT, an air  defence  AFV,  3  different
artillery AFVs, assorted AFVs for EW/ND/command/commo, a recovery
vehicle, a field repair vehicle, a G-Carrier with 3 variants,  an
APC with 5 variants, and a fast recon vehicle (possibly a  Trasea
grav bike for the last).  Before I'm done  I'll  probably  double
this list, and thats before I get to the COACC  aerospace  units,
the rear  echelon  support  vehicles,  or  the  typical  civilian
vehicles used by the militia on both sides!  If  anyone's  got  a
fetish for designing lots of MT vehicles I could pre-release  the
unit org charts for a better understanding of the requirements.

Hmmm ... or how about a TL 13 military vehicle rodeo (MT only)?

Regards PLST





From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 08:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed Aug  7 07:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Yankee Imperium (was Dehumanization)
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D3D@USCHM203>

>Clint Rynners wrote:
>[snip large essay]

>I do believe that if the USA mobilised fully, it could impose a
>single world government, but I think the cost would be terrible.

>[snip large essay]

I'm taking this snippet completely out of context, but it got me thinking
...sometimes...I wonder...then I realize he's right, the cost would be
terrible....
On the other hand, what would MY position be in this United States of the
World? Would it be like the Terrans taking over the Ziru Sirka?
Our friends up north, across the pond, and down under (you know who you are)
will rule alongside us----no, on second thought, we'll just allow you
limited home rule.
France will be ceded to Germany (to be ruled by appointed Governor David
Hasselhoff), just because. 
Everyone else shall fall under the shadow of the Golden Arches and Mickey
Mouse.
And Switzerland will not be allowed to remain neutral this time.
As for that troublesome part of the world in the news lately...well, with
one world government, there will be no need for nuclear weapons----date and
time of America Rules fireworks display shall be posted.
Oh, and Traveller Game Sessions will be mandatory through grades 9-12.

...I really need to get to bed earlier.....



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 08:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug  7 07:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump governor
Message-ID: <b35fd8b30977.b30977b35fd8@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: MJ Dougherty <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Date: Tuesday, August 6, 2002 12:30 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Jump governor

> 
> > I don't see these in High Guard - IMTU, they don't exist.  If
> > a Jump-4 ship jumps 2 parsecs, they only use 2 parsecs worth
> > of fuel.
> >
> > What was the last canon word on this subject, if any?
> 
> Marc's last statement (and confirmed to me in a question I asked a 
> whileago) was that if you have J-3 fuel and you J-1, you only use 
> J1 of fuel up.

IIRC, the concept of jump governors was based on the following:

1.  LBB2 states that all jump fuel is used in a single jump, regardless 
of the distance of the jump (I'll have to head back to my barracks room 
later to find the page reference; it may be from an earlier printing of 
LBB2).
2.  HG2 indicates that, as per MWM's statement referenced above, you use 
fuel only for the distance actually travelled.
3.  A "jump governor" was a device that could be retrofitted to LBB2 
ships' jump drives to give them HG2 levels of fuel efficiency.

As later versions of Traveller all assume jump fuel usage to be similar 
or superior to that of HG2, jump governors are no longer addressed.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 08:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Wed Aug  7 07:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D39@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <3D51D5BF.15510.1085EB73@localhost>

On 7 Aug 2002, at 9:38, Hurrel, Brian wrote:

> Actually, these men are NOT POWs. Technically we could have them summarily
> executed, and it would be perfectly legal, though would upset alot of bleeding
> hearts. Partisans, saboteurs, spies, and other irregulars, which certainly
> includes terrorists, are not protected by either formal or informal Rules of
> War or the Geneva Convention. During WWII those captured were shot out of hand
> most of the time, and it was not considered illegal. I can't recall a single
> German officer being tried for shooting such troops (as opposed to retaliating
> against civilians for the actions of partisans, which IS illegal). Allied
> soldiers and civilians who participated in such covert and irregular actions
> were fully aware that they would not be treated as POWs if captured.

The rules changed after the 2nd WW (in response to exactly the situation 
you describe). Irregular combantants are explicitly covered now. Check 
Article 4 of the 1949 Geneva Convention on POWs (the Al Quida prisioners 
can make a pretty darn strong case under 4:2 BTW):

Article 4
A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons 
belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power 
of the enemy:
1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as 
members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.
2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, 
including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party 
to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this 
territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, 
including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following 
conditions:
(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
(c) That of carrying arms openly;
(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and 
customs of war.
3. Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a 
government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.
4. Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being 
members thereof, such as civilian members of military aircraft crews, war 
correspondents, supply contractors, members of labour units or of services 
responsible for the welfare of the armed forces, provided that they have 
received authorization from the armed forces which they accompany, who 
shall provide them for that purpose with an identity card similar to the 
annexed model.
5. Members of crews, including masters, pilots and apprentices, of the 
merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, 
who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions 
of international law.
6. Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the 
enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without 
having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they 
carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.

BTW its incumbant on the *detaining* power to disprove a potential POWs 
status. When in doubt, they have to be accorded POW status until the 
detaining power proves that they don't.

You'll also find similar articles in the 1975 Hague Conventions and the 1987 
Geneva Declaration on Terrorism.

ObTrav: Not much, how many PC mercenary groups retain a lawyer to 
keep upto date on the latest intepretations of the Rules of War.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 08:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Wed Aug  7 07:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] John Beats The Dead Horse of Imperial Rules Of War...
In-Reply-To: <200208071354.MGL02479@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D51DB9E.19603.109CDB0F@localhost>

On 7 Aug 2002, at 9:54, John T. Kwon wrote:

> The player characters in any Traveller party would often fall 
> into the category of illegal combatant.  They aren't wearing 
> a uniform, they don't belong to an official army, and aren't 
> part of an officially responsible chain of command.  In a war 
> zone, if they were caught fighting an official military 
> force, and they surrendered, 

If the relevant Interstellar Conventions follow the relevant RL ones, they 
could well be "legal combatants". You don't need to be part of an official 
chain of command, just have a some one clearly in charge (ie a unit CO). 
You don't need to be wearing a uniform, just a "fixed distinctive sign 
recognizable at a distance" (a simple armband will do). And you don't need 
to be part of the official army, just recognised by one of the parties. Heck 
you've even got protection for "Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who 
on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the 
invading forces" (depending on the circumstances). I'd imagine that the 
various Ine Givar Cadre's in FFW could well come under these catagories.

However, I think most PC would fail due to the "Conduct their operations in 
accordance with the laws and customs of war" (how many PC groups have 
you seen that would meet that criteria :*>)
 
> would they be considered 
> prisoners of war, or would they be shot out of hand after the 
> local Imperial Marine lieutenant heard his platoon sergeant's 
> report?

Assuming they actually made it into custody (ie the platoon didn't just gun 
them down and worry about the legal niceties later), I doubt they'd be shot 
out of hand. Far better for the Marine Lt to play it safe and send them up 
the line, and leave the decisions as to their combatant status to someone 
less likely to face a disciplinary board for getting it wrong.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 09:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Aug  7 08:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Landgrab of Vilis
Message-ID: <20020807150956.2D7CE4509@mo120usjc.palm.net>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:
>Mark Urbin will be doing Garda-Vilis, and we'll look into  
>putting something there.  The backdrop of the Broadsword  
>adventure, however, seems to be that Vilis doesn't have a  
>strong military presence at Garda-Vilis, and therefore they  
>hire the Broadsword and its mercenaries. 
>Later in the adventure, merchant ships containing a Vilis  
>infantry unit arrives, so this could be the 1199th. 

Jump Commandos sounds more like a well funded Imperial unit to me.
Some number cruncher will probably point out that every TL 4+ planet with a population over 500,000 can afford it's own regiment of Jump Commandos though. :-)

>It's odd.  Considering the sheer number of people on Vilis,  
>one might imagine that it would have infantrymen coming out  
>of their ears. 

This could be political function. 
IMTU, Vilis has a large urban underclass that produces violent gangs.  These gangers, when rounded up, are often given the choice of the Imperial Marines or something that would make a stint in MyMines (tm) look good.

So, if Vilis were to set up a good 'ginder' boot camp process (like the Pournelle CoDo Marines), the could churn out decent Light Infantry.
Useful for merc work as well as local defense.  

>Also, another oddity - Vilis seems to have a TL 12 ship in  
>its navy, although Vilis is not TL 12.  Is this an obsolete  
>Imperial ship purchased by Vilis?  Is this sort of thing  
>common?   

My memory says yes, according to canon.  The Imperial Navy (or perhaps even the Sector Navy) probably gave them a good price for it.

>FRONT TOWARD ENEMY 
----------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere. 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 09:27:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Aug  7 08:27:08 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <3D5174AB.19191.F0AB707@localhost>
References: <3D5174AB.19191.F0AB707@localhost>
Message-ID: <m365ymsna4.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> writes:
> 
> At the current rates of extinction, somewhere between every six
> months and two years (depending on which biologist you listen to) we
> destroy one undiscovered medicine.

We destroy one natural source of an undiscovered medicine, perhaps.
But we can synthesise just about anything these days.  My best friend
is a biochemist (well, almost--getting his PhD in a year), and if I
remember our conversations correctly, most biochemistry these days is
_not_ `oh, some old wives' tale says this is good; let's try it,' but
rather `let's see which substances we can squeeze through _this_
barrier,' i.e. it's pretty much known what most substances are going
to do; the trick is to get them through cell walls, preserve them
until they hit the right parts of the body, keep them from hitting the
wrong parts.

The company he's interning with essentially takes a patented molecule,
developes a thousand variations on it, and sells those variations back
to the original patenter, IIRC.

But perhaps there are practicing biochemists on the list who have
better knowledge than dimly-remembered conversations between
students...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it
flips over, pinning you underneath.  At night, the ice weasels
come.                                          --Matt Groening

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 10:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Aug  7 09:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
Message-ID: <F147AHJb3f9oUwnX8hD000049be@hotmail.com>

From: John Hamill <jwdh71@yahoo.com>

     "I have a chance to get a two-part GURPS:Traveller game together, 
during a weekend mini-con at the local game store, and I really need a 
couple of ships fast. Well, faster than I can do them by hand, anyway."


Mr. Hamill,

     IIRC, the BITS website has a wonderful, massive, and free PDF download 
chocked full of G:T ships.  Al TLs, all races, all functions too.  Why build 
ships when someone else has done the work for you already?  :)
     A free PDF reader can be downloaded at the Adobe webiste too.
     Google should point you to both locations.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 10:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed Aug  7 09:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15FA@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

We aim to please :)  And it was three days ago ;)  Only one shot of some stuff I'm working on for BITS, and it'll be replaced with a better shot shortly, but you get the idea ;D
Jesse


Love it! Some friendly banter between Penguin Boy and The Polygon Kid.

I'm settling down with some popcorn.

;-)  ;-)

(BTW Jesse, when your next page update going to happen? %^)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 10:17:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed Aug  7 09:17:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15F9@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Well, if Marc'll ever get back to me on it, that could happen ;)  Stay tuned...
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: David Smart [mailto:jurrubin@earthlink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 5:15 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .


Mark C. posted:
> 
> Jesse DeGraff <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> writes:
> 
> > What about artists?  ;)
> 
> Sure, why not?  Do you know any? >^)
> 
>     - Mark C.

Oh, gawd, puh-LEEZE let him on it. Maybe SJG will one
day market his graphics on T-shirts (HINT, HINT!).

Do you know how difficult it is for me to NOT
print T-shirts of his stuff for personal use?

David Smart
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 10:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed Aug  7 09:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D4D@USCHM203>

>Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance wrote:

>The rules changed after the 2nd WW (in response to exactly the situation 
>you describe). Irregular combantants are explicitly covered now. Check 
>Article 4 of the 1949 Geneva Convention on POWs (the Al Quida prisioners 
>can make a pretty darn strong case under 4:2 BTW):

I didn't know about that, though it does sound reasonable in may cases which
can be considered "gray areas".

>"(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and 
>customs of war."

Obviously actively engaged terrorists violate this requirement, but I have
to admit that it might be a tough case to prove against Al Quaida members
captured in Afghanistan. Legally prove. In reality, I know it, you know it,
and they know it.
Unless you make the entire organization responsible for 9/11 and other acts
of terrorism in an attempt to destroy the US, which is their stated aim.
They even have manuals for various acts, and explicitly condone the use of
torture for the cause (for the record, those in the US advocating the same
are idiots of the worst order). 
So IMHO, any Al Quaida are fair game for the firing squad.

Apologies for off-topic, though it does bring up some interesting threads
regarding how player characters that are not part of an official army would
be treated.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 10:22:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed Aug  7 09:22:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15FB@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

I don't have a problem with personal use, provided 1.you buy my shirts if/when I can get a deal worked out with Marc ;D and 2.you only use non-SJG images that are on my site.  Oh, and a fine-print copyright notice should be added to the picture ;)  If you don't have the graphics software to do it, let me know and I'd be happy to.  I may even render a better/bigger/uncompressed picture for you to use if ask nicely ;)
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
[mailto:david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au]
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 7:33 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .


Dear Folks -

David Smart wrote:
>Do you know how difficult it is for me to NOT
>print T-shirts of his stuff for personal use?

I'd been thinking about this for a while, too. A copyright question that I 
don't know the answer to is, "Is it 'fair use' if I put a Jesse picture on 
ONE T-Shirt for my own use?"

The alternative I thought of was asking Jesse for permission to make _two_ 
shirts, and sending him the second one as "payment". ;-)

Jesse, your thoughts?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 10:31:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Aug  7 09:31:19 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <20020807162904.96842.qmail@web20418.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com

>A Hollywood version of the change of command (and a damned good 
>performance by Humphrey Bogart) can be seen in THE CAINE MUTINY. A 

Funny that you should mention that film as I'm about to start eating
the strawberries I brought from home.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 10:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Aug  7 09:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: army usage
In-Reply-To: <159.121cd731.2a81f025@aol.com>
References: <159.121cd731.2a81f025@aol.com>
Message-ID: <p04330102b976fd8e5a14@[198.123.22.179]>

At 11:38 PM -0400 8/6/02, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
>  >>I really think you should do some research on the situation in
>  >>Afganisthan and how everything went down before blurting things out.
>  >>The main population of Afganisthan was opposed to the Taliban, which
>  >>is mainly from a tribe to the south west (I think).
>  >
>  >Tommy, you should do some research, too.  The Taliban was composed
>  >primarily of Pakistani and Saudi volunteers who called themselves
>  >"students" (of Islam).
>
>No.  To my knowledge, on that particular point he's right.  The Taliban
>stronghold is in the large and populous tribes of southern Afghanistan.

Except the Taliban had lost a lot of support even amongst the Pashtun.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 10:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Aug  7 09:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <200208071651.MGR02547@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Wait a minute.  If it's a rule of men, and not laws, it's 
entirely possible that a conquering force can arbitrarily 
dictate who gets shot without a trial just by saying so.

And the neat thing about it is that they don't have to resort 
to legal arguments, twisted vocabulary, or "kid' logic.
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 10:57:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Aug  7 09:57:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <200208071651.MGR02547@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028739389.7419.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> Wait a minute.  If it's a rule of men, and not laws, it's 
> entirely possible that a conquering force can arbitrarily 
> dictate who gets shot without a trial just by saying so.

Yeah.  That statement, to the degree it's true, is certainly one of the less
pleasant aspects of the 3I.  If you assume a real 'noblisse oblige' it can be a
positive effect, but in general it's born to be abused.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:01:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:01:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : OK, Now What?
Message-ID: <20020807165913.28112.qmail@web20417.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>

>There's been a lot of recent research into ball lightning. Maybe a
>militarily useful amount of plasma can be packaged in this way.

Fans of the Command and Conquer computer game will be familiar with
the tesla coil.  The Germans were working on a device like this
during WW2, but must not have gotten it operational.

--Glenn


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <20020807170626.8059.qmail@web20418.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>

>Actually, these men are NOT POWs. Technically we could have them 
>summarily executed, and it would be perfectly legal, though would
>upset alot of bleeding hearts. 
>
>Partisans, saboteurs, spies, and other irregulars, which certainly 
>includes terrorists, are not protected by either formal or informal
>Rules of War or the Geneva Convention.
>
>During WWII those captured were shot out of hand most of the time, 
>and it was not considered illegal. I can't recall a single German
>officer being tried for shooting such troops (as opposed to 

Yes, if you have the time and resources, it makes sense to
interrogate them first and shoot them later -- or, interrogate them
first, make some of the information public and attribute it to the
detainees, and return them to their homes, where their former
colleagues will kill them for snitching.  

Hmm ... I wonder if my current set of players (playing police
officers) will think of that approach to interrogation.  

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <3D506907.B582A8E7@mindspring.com>
References: <200208070000.MFJ02183@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <3D506907.B582A8E7@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m3wur2r423.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

alan spik <babyduck@mindspring.com> writes:
> 
> I don't think the Navy was that organized.  Read with amusement
> Doug's post about marching.  At every CoC I attended, we were given
> a time to be there.  We were expected to, and did meander our way
> over and meet the Chief who would tell us where to stand.  Usually a
> big gaggle(Pod?), then the Master Chief would come out and make
> everyone straiten up in ranks, and the show would get started about
> thirty minutes later.  I remember several people falling out.

That sounds like the Navy I know.  At the All-Academy Balls the West
Pointers (great giants of men) would stand there, stiff and formal,
when introduced.  The marine services (Navy, Coast Guards, Merchant
Marines) were much more relaxed--they're sailors, after all.  The Air
Force was an odd thing: some tried to be disciplined and failed, while
others didn't try at all.  In fact, there wasn't a year that one of
'em didn't show up in the wrong uniform--or showed up in civilian
clothes!  Pretty girls, though.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The only kind of freedom that the mob can imagine is freedom to annoy
and oppress its betters, and that is precisely the kind that we mainly
have.                                                   --H.L. Mencken

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V.I. Parviainen)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <m365ymsna4.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <3D5174AB.19191.F0AB707@localhost> <m365ymsna4.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020807171434.GA26680@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 09:26:27AM -0600, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> > At the current rates of extinction, somewhere between every six
> > months and two years (depending on which biologist you listen to) we
> > destroy one undiscovered medicine.
> 
> We destroy one natural source of an undiscovered medicine, perhaps.
> But we can synthesise just about anything these days.  

Well, yes, but wouldn't it be a bit easier to synthesise a compound if
you had it beforehand, instead of trying to duplicate the effects from
an old tale?

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:20:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:20:15 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Yankee Imperium
Message-ID: <20020807171936.65485.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>

>Clint Rynners wrote:
>>I do believe that if the USA mobilised fully, it could impose a
>>single world government, but I think the cost would be terrible.

>I'm taking this snippet completely out of context, but it got me 
>thinking ...sometimes...I wonder...then I realize he's right, the
>cost would be terrible....
>On the other hand, what would MY position be in this United States 

No one likes us 
I don't know why. 
We may not be perfect 
But heaven knows we try. 
But all around even our old friends put us down. 
Let's drop the big one and see what happens. 

We give them money 
But are they grateful? 
No they're spiteful 
And they're hateful. 
They don't respect us so let's surprise them; 
We'll drop the big one and pulverize them. 

Now Asia's crowded 
And Europe's too old. 
Africa's far too hot, 
And Canada's too cold. 
And South America stole our name. 
Let's drop the big one; there'll be no one left to blame us. 

Bridge: 
We'll save Australia; 
Don't wanna hurt no kangaroo. 
We'll build an all-American amusement park there; 
They've got surfing, too. 

Well, boom goes London, 
And boom Paris. 
More room for you 
And more room for me. 
And every city the whole world round 
Will just be another American town. 
Oh, how peaceful it'll be; 
We'll set everybody free; 
You'll have Japanese kimonos, baby, 
There'll be Italian shoes for me. 
They all hate us anyhow, 
So let's drop the big one now. 
Let's drop the big one now. 

Randy Newman, Political Science, from the album Sail Away, copied
from
http://www.leoslyrics.com/listlyrics.php?sid=%EEe%3Cy%A1P8%06

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020807171434.GA26680@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028741494.6212.ajackson@ping>

Mikko V.I. Parviainen writes:
> 
> Well, yes, but wouldn't it be a bit easier to synthesise a compound if
> you had it beforehand, instead of trying to duplicate the effects from
> an old tale?

Not exactly the right question.  The question is whether it's more efficient to
chase down old wives' tales, or to ignore the old wives' tales and attempt to
synthesize drugs based on prior understanding of what they ought to do.

The herbal movement notwithstanding, most pharmaceutical companies don't seem
to find chasing down old wives' tales, particularly extremely obscure old
wives' tales, to be really worth doing.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020807171434.GA26680@mimosa.hut.fi>
References: <3D5174AB.19191.F0AB707@localhost>
 <m365ymsna4.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
 <20020807171434.GA26680@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <m37kj2r2wf.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Mikko V.I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi> writes:
>
> > We destroy one natural source of an undiscovered medicine,
> > perhaps.  But we can synthesise just about anything these days.
> 
> Well, yes, but wouldn't it be a bit easier to synthesise a compound
> if you had it beforehand, instead of trying to duplicate the effects
> from an old tale?

But that's the point: as I understand it we've pretty well exhausted
the use of old tales and have moved on.  Not that I discount the
possibility that a remarkable new medicine could be lurking in the
rainforest; simply that I discount the probability.

As I understand it, science understand the effects of most substances:
the trick is to get them where they're needed and not where they're
not.  Which means designing a molecule which will let a drug slip
through one barrier but not another.  Which is tricky.

But, as I wrote, I could be awfully, woefully, terribly wrong.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Of course, if you're writing the code to control a cruise missile, you
may not actually need an explicit loop exit.  The loop will be
terminated automatically at the appropriate moment.
                         -Programming Perl, 3rd Ed.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <3D5050EB.9050601@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <003401c23d98$a70d8680$da29f7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020807102826.009e6ec0@mindspring.com>

At 03:42 PM 8/6/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Fred Ramen wrote:
>
>>I'm probably in a tiny minority here, but I remain unconvinced about
>>Arbellatra's strategic brilliance. Certainly her conduct of the 2FW does not
>>seem to have a personal stamp upon it the way Norris' saving strategy in the
>>5FW does. Canonical info on the war is spotty, of course, but it is
>>described as a "holding action" accompanied by commerce raids. When the
>>dreadnoughts are finally constructed, Arbellatra does not lead them on a
>>reconquest of the Marches, but merely forces a stalemate...and then promptly
>>concedes territory to the Zhodani, as well as separating several other
>>worlds from the Imperium.
>
>Probably this is because she knows she needs to a) bring an end ASAP to 
>the 2FW, and b) She needs those Dreadnaughts to end the rebellion, rather 
>than throwing them into a likely bloody fight to beat the Zhodani back.
>
>The Zho's, being in an expansionist mood at the moment, are only too happy 
>to help her achieve her goals.

I've always seen the Zhodani motivation in the Frontier Wars as keeping the 
Imperium at bay.  The 1st and 2nd wars removed the Imperium  from 
previously settled Zhodani territories and established a buffer zone.  The 
3 - 5 felt more like disruptive actions, designed to keep the Marches 
scared and on the defensive.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:55:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:55:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra (WAS: warship optimization in traveller
 CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208061330150.8694-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
References: <3.0.5.16.20020806113510.45efd91c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020807103324.009f4440@mindspring.com>

At 01:32 PM 8/6/02 -0700, you wrote:
>On Tue, 6 Aug 2002, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>
> > Good model.  I was thinking a bit of Hitler, personally.  Same kind of
> > personal magnetism.
>
>EEK!!!  But I like Arbellatra!

Hey, so do I!  But if you scrub off what he did wh\ith it, the fact remains 
that Hitler was one of the greatest orators in the 20th Century.  His 
magnetism and leadership ability took a tiny fringe party to power in ten 
years.  Picture that kind of ability in an Imperial Admiral, already known 
for her war-fighting ability.  Troops would flock to her.

> > She had a good line.  In this aspect, she's much like St. Jean d'Arc.  The
> > "Maid of Mora" driving to restore the Imperium!  She would find ready
> > converts in Deneb and Corridor. She probably played a different game with
> > the Vilani.  Promises of increased power in the court, culminating with her
> > son's marriage to a Vilani noblewoman in 679.  As she drew closer to
> > Capital, I'm sure that pretender fleets defected en masse rather than face
> > annihilation.
>
>I like Arbellatra la Pucelle much better than Arbellatra as Hitler.

Joan was more message and fire, Adolf sheer energy.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:55:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:55:46 2002
Subject: [TML] army usage
In-Reply-To: <a6.2a3d2ddd.2a81b626@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020807103810.009f6ec0@mindspring.com>

At 07:30 PM 8/6/02 -0400, you wrote:
>
>  >Seriously, from our point of view, Afghanistan was as close to a perfect
>  >situation as you can get.  All we had to do was provide air & logisitcal
>  >support, and the population in the are being attacked wasn't too thrilled
>  >with the current government.  They all aren't going to be that way.
>
>(Actually, it wasn't the population that opposed the Taliban.  it was the
>Northern Alliance.  The only reason the NA isn't pillaging the citizens like
>they were doing before the Taliban kicked them out is because they're
>preoccupied spending all that money that we bribed them with.  Sort of a
>Marshall Plan for bandit chiefs.  Seems to have worked so far.)

Really?  So all those people dancing in the streets, lining up to be 
shaved, digging up radios and TVs, kissing the feet of NA soldiers were 
mirages?

Do a little research, please.

>Well, one wouldn't think so, but as I understand it the plans for attacking
>Iraq involve a repeat of Afghanisan, using "rebels" in the north and south to
>do the actual fighting while we provide airstrikes.  Again:  "Army?  What
>Army?"  To my knowledge the army made not one twitch towards deployment
>during the Afghan battle -- either the authorities were supremely confident
>that they didn't need the army, or they had misgivings about deploying it in
>its present condition.  One wouldn't think Iraq would roll up so handily, but
>no-one thought the Taliban would roll up so fast either.  Apparently we're
>going to find out.

The 75th Regiment (Ranger), the 101st Airborne (Air Assault) and various 
Special Forces groups were all mobilized and on the ground.  Rangers were 
in Afghanistan before the main force of Taliban ceased fighting.  Troops 
from the 82nd Airborne and the 10th Mountain Divisions are still over there 
in the thick of things.

Not one twitch?  The 3rd Infantry Division (Mechanized) was put on 24-hour 
alert and ordered to start preparing for a possible deployment.  Putting 
15,000 men and all their vehicles (Bradleys, Abrams, MLRS) on warning is a 
bit more than a twitch.  I personally know several Army personnel who 
served and were shot at with great enthusiasm.

>On the other hand, if the latest briefs are any indication and we launch any
>military action against the house of Saud, then I think we're going to have
>to occupy everything from Libya to Jakarta.  That _will_ require an army, and
>I'm not sure we have one.

Sure we do!  We'll draft you.  :)

-- 

Douglas E. Berry   gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Cry "CHEEBLE!" and let slip the hamsters of war!



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:56:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:56:01 2002
Subject: [TML] OT:  December ARPC shoot
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15F3@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020807104836.009f6c50@mindspring.com>

At 04:58 PM 8/6/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Good to hear!  I'm desperately going to try to make it up again finally, 
>as the financial situation has improved a little.  Providing of course 
>that I can get a new roomate and don't have to keep paying twice the rent 
>like I am now :(  Also, I'm going to invite Erin again, and maybe I can 
>get my "girlfriend" to go too ;)

I too, shall try to make it up.  I'll be at OryCon the week before that (as 
Gaming GOH, if you can believe that, so unless you can give me rifde, no 
way I can afford to fly twice in that length of time.

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"I'm just trying to evict them. Frogs never pay."
                             - Rose Platt



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 12:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug  7 11:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <sd4ff8f8.002@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020807105540.009efb90@mindspring.com>

At 04:27 PM 8/6/02 -0400, you wrote:
>I think that because the Imperial Navy has such a long history, it
>probably has a lot of cool traditions. Anything that you threw in for
>color, like Marines in some traditional dress uniforms standing behind
>the "quarterdeck", the transfer of a baton, staff or whistle, maybe a
>reading of the ship's history...

Marines in their Dress Maroon, cutlasses raised in present arms.  By 
tradition, the junior Marine in the compliment steps forward, presents his 
cutlass hilt first to the new commander, and says "Sir!  The Marine Force 
is present and ready for you orders."  The new officer salutes the Marine, 
and gives the order "resume your stations."


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 12:17:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Aug  7 11:17:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Friday
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEFDILAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

I've tried to reach you by phone no answer.  
Please email me the information regarding when
Jonie (Joani, Joany (?)) wants to meet
and where too.

I've got to go out so email is a better bet.

________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 12:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Aug  7 11:22:03 2002
Subject: ignore RE: [TML] Friday
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEFDILAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEFEILAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

sorry wrong address, please ignore

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John-Martin
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 11:13 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Friday
Importance: High


I've tried to reach you by phone no answer.  
Please email me the information regarding when
Jonie (Joani, Joany (?)) wants to meet
and where too.

I've got to go out so email is a better bet.

________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 12:34:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Aug  7 11:34:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Three More Silly Questions
In-Reply-To: <m3wur2r423.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <3D506907.B582A8E7@mindspring.com>
 <200208070000.MFJ02183@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <3D506907.B582A8E7@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020807133436.00a777f0@minn.net>

At 11:07 AM 8/7/2002 -0600, Robert Uhl wrote:

>That sounds like the Navy I know.  At the All-Academy Balls the West
>Pointers (great giants of men) would stand there, stiff and formal,
>when introduced.  The marine services (Navy, Coast Guards, Merchant
>Marines) were much more relaxed--they're sailors, after all.  The Air
>Force was an odd thing: some tried to be disciplined and failed, while
>others didn't try at all.  In fact, there wasn't a year that one of
>'em didn't show up in the wrong uniform--or showed up in civilian
>clothes!  Pretty girls, though.

Okay.

Need some information about secondary-level military boarding schools (or
boarding schools in general).

Is there a tradition of senior students supervising (or oppressing) younger
students? If so, can you descibe the process? Off list please.

Where can I find UWP stats for the Uthe subsector? Canon if possible.


Les


==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 12:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Burns)
Date: Wed Aug  7 11:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
Message-ID: <20020807183944.5641.qmail@web10602.mail.yahoo.com>

Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 20:55:47 +1000
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>

Daniel Burns wrote:

> Unlike GT where it seems you can spot those nasty
(inflamatory reference deleted) at a few


"Argh! Don't say that word!"

Well, yeah, I was kinda playing fire there using
'that' as an example, but the flames are soooo pretty
;)


> parsecs while they are ramped up to speed,


"Sure, a decade or so later when the sensor
information gets to you.
It's poking along at light-speed, remember?   [:)] 

D'oh, must stop sleep-typing, I knew that of course
but my brain was awol :) "Would you believe... Our top
psychics are manning our sensor grid right now, and
can get a precognitive firing solution weeks or even
years before the target shows up?" ;)


Seriously Tim, thanks for being so kind to this
insomnia inebriated poster :) your courteousness is
noted.

Dan "far-trader" Burns



______________________________________________________________________ 
Post your ad for free now! http://personals.yahoo.ca

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 12:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed Aug  7 11:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D5A@USCHM203>

>John T. Kwon wrote:

>Wait a minute.  If it's a rule of men, and not laws, it's 
>entirely possible that a conquering force can arbitrarily 
>dictate who gets shot without a trial just by saying so.

>And the neat thing about it is that they don't have to resort 
>to legal arguments, twisted vocabulary, or "kid' logic.

One of the most frightening things I have ever read was a description, by a
fascist, though I can't remember if he was Italian or German, on the
absolute power of the state. I wish I had the exact quote, but it went
something like this:

"If the state says that 2 + 2 = 5, then it is so, and any citizen will tell
you it is so."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D5A@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <B976BD70.68DB2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/7/02 11:56 AM, Hurrel, Brian at brian.hurrel@eds.com wrote:

>=20
> "If the state says that 2 + 2 =3D 5, then it is so, and any citizen will te=
ll
> you it is so."

2 + 2 does equal 5, for very large values of 2.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>

Hello Folks,
   This is in response to Tim's comments regarding point defense lasers.  I 
have a few of them in all, so this is just one of many incoming 
designs.  All of them are TL 12 designs for use with GURPS 
TRAVELLER.  Please note that I was not happy with the "Logic" of having 
turret weapons who required that their "energy power plant be part of the 
main shipboard power plant.  Thus, *ALL* lasers designed by CGI include 
their own power generators.

TL 12
The SL328 is a 328.1 Mega-Joule laser designed to replace the standard 
405-Mj laser. It features an independent power supply such that a power 
loss within the ship does not mean the laser cannot fire. The SL328 comes 
with a battery pack that holds 328,100 kilowatt seconds of power along with 
a fusion generator that produces 14,578 Kilowatts. Total volume taken up by 
the SL328 is 490 cubic feet. Due to the size of this laser, it cannot be 
used in Streamlined turrets.


ROF:                            1/60
Half Damage Range:              2
Max Damage Range:               7
Accuracy:                       32
Damage:                 5d6 x 90 (2)
Spaces:                 .97
Mass in Tons:                   7.33
Cost in MCr.:                   .35
Rate of Fire Bonus:             +7


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:12:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:12:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D5C@USCHM203>

>Glenn M. Goffin wrote:

>Yes, if you have the time and resources, it makes sense to
>interrogate them first and shoot them later -- or, interrogate them
>first, make some of the information public and attribute it to the
>detainees, and return them to their homes, where their former
>colleagues will kill them for snitching

Great story from Vietnam. As usual can't remember the source:

A local village mayor was known to be a VC supporter, but no one could prove
it or do anything about it.
One day some American intelligence types, after a firefight, threw some
recovered VC bodies onto a jeep and drove into the village. They drove up to
the mayor's house.
Now, you have to picture this. The VC bodies are in full view of everyone in
the village.
As far as I know, the mayor did not speak English, and the Americans did not
speak Vietnamese.
The Americans smiled, clapped the horrified mayor on the back, and unloaded
gifts of food, a radio, bundles of cash, etcetera, and drove off.
Three guesses on how long the mayor lived after that?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807151954.024d5a80@mail.buffnet.net>

The SL47 laser system was designed mainly as a trinary weapon system in 
that it works best when used in groups of three. CDI is firmly committed to 
the idea of Accuracy through Firepower, and as such, tends to design it's 
lasers with an eye towards getting the most performance with higher rates 
of fire. The SL47 is designed mainly as a compromise between point defense 
and offense. It will affect any ship who has a DR rating of 500 or less, 
better than 50% of the time. Couple this with the SL47's RoF accuracy, and 
targets out to 30,000 miles away can be affected with a decent chance of 
success. Using a well trained gunner, targets with a displacement size of 
10 tons have been hit 4.6% of the time using a 20 minute firing duration. 
Statistics use as a baseline, a Mark IV Target program. Using a top of the 
line TL11 target computer, running a MarkXII target program, the success 
rate changed from 4.6% success rate to a 62.5% success rate. When used in a 
triple turret, using the standard MarkIV target program, the SL47 changed 
from a 4.6% success rate to a 25.9% success rate.
The SL47 uses a self contained power generator rated at 2,088 Kilowatts, 
and uses a battery rated at 125,302 Kilowatt seconds. Empty volume left 
over after being used in a Standard turret is 1.5 cubic feet in a 
streamlined turret, or 101.5 cubic feet in a non-streamlined turret.

ROF:				10/60
Half Damage Range:		1
Max Damage Range:		3
Accuracy:			30
Damage:			5d6 x 34(2)
Spaces:			.8
Mass in Tons:			3.79
Cost in MCr.:			.19
Rate of Fire Bonus:		+10


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807152459.024ebdf0@mail.buffnet.net>

TL 12
The SL828 is a super laser designed to use all three spaces in an 
unstreamlined turret. Like all of the other SL series lasers, it contains 
its own self contained fusion power plant. It uses a 2,207,448 kilowatt 
second battery, and the power plant produces 36,790 kilowatts of energy. 
Total volume used is 1,495 cubic feet, leaving 5 cubic feet of volume in a 
standard Imperial turret. Due to its higher rate of fire, along with its 
superior penetration value - the SL828 makes for a heavy hitting weapon 
system. The SL828 cannot be used in unstreamlined turrets.



ROF:                            2/60
Half Damage Range:              4
Max Damage Range:               11
Accuracy:                       33
Damage:                 5d6 x 143(2)
Spaces:                 2.99
Mass in Tons:                   20.65
Cost in MCr.:                   .98
Rate of Fire Bonus:             +8


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:19:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:19:27 2002
Subject: [TML] army usage
Message-ID: <89.1bf4851a.2a82cc79@aol.com>

In a message dated 07/08/02 00:33:50 GMT Daylight Time, Flykiller@aol.com 
writes:


On the other hand, if the latest briefs are any indication and we launch any 
military action against the house of Saud, then I think we're going to have 
to occupy everything from Libya to Jakarta.  That _will_ require an army, and 

I'm not sure we have one.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I've been really busy at work recently but I wasn't aware that the US planned 
to invade Saudi Arabia, where, the last time I looked the House of Saud were 
in charge.

The last time Saddam Hussein, leader of Iraq and head of the Ba'ath party, 
was the target.

Have things changed and has the US decided to after the single biggest source 
of  al-Qaida funding?

Charles

I addressed some cheerful chit-chat at the man opposite but was rewarded with 
grunt. I tried the man next to me but he just looked at the gentleman I had 
tried first and said "Do you know what he's talking about?" At this point I 
realised I was getting out my depth but the Dean stepped in and saved me, "Oh 
don't worry about it" he said, "They're mathematicians - we never talk to 
them."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807152728.024eb0f0@mail.buffnet.net>

TL 12
The SL948 was designed to be the hardest hitting laser that CDI could 
manufacture and still retain the design philosophy of self-contained power 
plants for the laser. While it has similar statistics to the SL828, it 
achieves an additional 7% damage at the expense of a lessor accuracy via 
firepower. This system is actually cheaper to purchase than is the SL828. 
Total volume used is 1188.5 cubic feet. When used in a streamlined turret, 
11.5 cubic feet remain unused. When used in a non-streamlined turret, 
leftover volume is 311.5 cubic feet.
The SL948 uses a battery rated at 2,527,368 kilowatt seconds, and uses a 
fusion power plant rated at 42,123 Kilowatts.



ROF:                            1/60
Half Damage Range:              4
Max Damage Range:               12
Accuracy:                       34
Damage:                 5d6 x 153(2)
Spaces:                 2.38
Mass in Tons:                   19.29
Cost in MCr.:                   .91
Rate of Fire Bonus:             +7


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807153004.00a3a9d0@mail.buffnet.net>

The SL90 system, using a 239,940 kilowatt second battery, enjoys the power 
of a 15,996 kilowatt fusion power plant. Like some of the other SL series 
lasers, this laser is designed to fit into streamlined turrets. It has a 
rate of fire that is 4 times that of a Standard 405-Mj laser, and as such, 
enjoys popularity as both as a point defense system, along with that of a 
moderate offensive system. When used in a streamlined turret, excess space 
is 35 cubic feet, or 135 in a non-streamlined turret.


ROF:                            4/60
Half Damage Range:              1
Max Damage Range:               4
Accuracy:                       31
Damage:                 5d6 x 47(2)
Spaces:                 .73
Mass in Tons:                   3.94
Cost in MCr.:                   .20
Rate of Fire Bonus:             +9


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <50.f92cdfb.2a82cde6@aol.com>

In a message dated 07/08/02 00:58:22 GMT Daylight Time, jtkwon@jtkgroup.com 
writes:


Don't forget - the outgoing commander has to do an inventory 
with the new commander, and the new commander gets to sign 
for the ship and all of the equipment in it.


Ohhh...the Vilani would love that bit.

Charles

I addressed some cheerful chit-chat at the man opposite but was rewarded with 
grunt. I tried the man next to me but he just looked at the gentleman I had 
tried first and said "Do you know what he's talking about?" At this point I 
realised I was getting out my depth but the Dean stepped in and saved me, "Oh 
don't worry about it" he said, "They're mathematicians - we never talk to 
them."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807153248.00a37b70@mail.buffnet.net>

The SL136 series laser uses 363,376 kilowatt second power storage unit, and 
is attached to a fusion power plant generating 24,225 kilowatts of power. 
Unusable in a streamlined turret, this laser is the upgraded SL90 with 
respect towards use in non-streamlined turrets. It boasts a 23% increase in 
penetration power over the SL90. Total volume used in turret is 490 cubic 
feet, leaving 10 cubic feet as empty space.
RoF 1/2 Damage Max Damage Acc Damage
range range
4/60 2 5 31 5d6 x 58(2)
Spaces Mass Cost RoF
in tons in MCr. bonus
.98 5.45 .2682 +6

ROF:                            4/60
Half Damage Range:              2
Max Damage Range:               5
Accuracy:                       31
Damage:                 5d6 x 58(2)
Spaces:                 .98
Mass in Tons:                   5.45
Cost in MCr.:                   .27
Rate of Fire Bonus:             +9


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:29:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:29:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807153547.00a32530@mail.buffnet.net>

Resent as the previous version of this I sent included the first edition 
data as opposed to second edition data (sorry)

The SL136 series laser uses 363,376 kilowatt second power storage unit, and 
is attached to a fusion power plant generating 24,225 kilowatts of power. 
Unusable in a streamlined turret, this laser is the upgraded SL90 with 
respect towards use in non-streamlined turrets. It boasts a 23% increase in 
penetration power over the SL90. Total volume used in turret is 490 cubic 
feet, leaving 10 cubic feet as empty space.


ROF:				4/60
Half Damage Range:		2
Max Damage Range:		5
Accuracy:			31
Damage:			5d6 x 58(2)
Spaces:			.98
Mass in Tons:			5.45
Cost in MCr.:			.27
Rate of Fire Bonus:		+9


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:29:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:29:30 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <20020807020627.6743406c80f7471790ae6758c061e780.in@keywest.kennett.net>
References: <20020807020627.6743406c80f7471790ae6758c061e780.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <3d51707a.2567266@post.demon.co.uk>

cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng) writes:

>Thanks.  Anybody can provide with how the Royal Navy does it?  Has the =
USN
>changed anything from the afore-explained procedure?=20

I always liked David Weber's change of command ceremonies in the Honor
Harrington books, but I don't know whether they're based on genuine
Napoleonic-era Royal Navy practice or just something DW made up...

(in brief, the new Captain is welcomed on board the ship as a visiting
senior officer, is escorted to the bridge, makes an all-hands
announcement in which (s)he reads aloud the written orders from the
Admiralty directing him/her "To proceed aboard Her Majesty's Starship
<Foo>, there to take upon yourself the duties and responsibilities of
commanding officer in the service of the Crown"; after which the new
Captain formally tells the previous (acting) commander "I assume
command".)

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807153712.00a315d0@mail.buffnet.net>

The SL23 is primarily a point defense laser. Imperial authorities have 
given CDI their coveted Excellence of Design award for this point defense 
laser. Also, the IMD has predicted that any civilian ship owner who puts in 
for a permit to install SL23's in their ship - will have an easier time of 
it. Mark Shuugaash, Sector head for the IMD of the Spinward Marches has 
informed all IMD departments that ships requesting SL23 permits are to be 
given preferential treatment with respect towards application processing 
time. After all, quoted Mark Shuugaash, how many would be pirates are going 
to use the low damaging power of the SL23 to good effect?
The SL23 uses a battery rated at 23,400 kilowatt seconds, and recharges its 
rapid fire laser by means of a 20,795 kilowatt fusion power plant. Unlike 
its faster firing cousin, the SL23a, this SL23 will fit into streamlined 
turrets. Excess space after installation in a Streamlined turret is 15 
cubic feet.


ROF:				20/60
Half Damage Range:		1
Max Damage Range:		2
Accuracy:			29
Damage:			5d6 x 24(2)
Spaces:			.77
Mass in Tons:			3.43
Cost in MCr.:			.17
Rate of Fire Bonus:		+12


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:34:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:34:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
Message-ID: <3D5175D5.D8DEC9AF@ameritech.net>

Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 09:10:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>

> David Shayne writes:
>
>> Standard densities. With Earth = 1. Doesn't look so horibly wrong 
>> now does it? 
>
> Ok, that's not as bad.  

Let me take a moment here to appologize for the tone of theat last post.
I really should have performed a snarkectomy on it before I sent it out.

Sorry,

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807154015.00a37d60@mail.buffnet.net>

Like the SL23, the SL23a is designed as a point defense system. Because 
this system can only be used in unstreamlined turrets, CDI has been able to 
increase its firepower abilities from that of 1 shot per minute, to 1 shot 
per 40 seconds. Consequently, this laser is better suited for tackling the 
tough job of point defense against incoming missiles than its cousin, the 
SL23.
The SL23a still uses the 62,384 kilowatt second battery that the SL23 uses, 
but instead, uses a 31,192 kilowatt fusion power plant.


ROF:				1.33
Half Damage Range:		1
Max Damage Range:		2
Accuracy:			29
Damage:			5d6 x 24(2)
Spaces:			1
Mass in Tons:			4.47
Cost in MCr.:			.23
Rate of Fire Bonus:		+13


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 14:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Aug  7 13:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
References: <3D5174AB.19191.F0AB707@localhost> <m365ymsna4.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> <20020807171434.GA26680@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <3D517EAA.9080504@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Mikko V.I. Parviainen wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 09:26:27AM -0600, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> 
>>>At the current rates of extinction, somewhere between every six
>>>months and two years (depending on which biologist you listen to) we
>>>destroy one undiscovered medicine.
>>
>>We destroy one natural source of an undiscovered medicine, perhaps.
>>But we can synthesise just about anything these days.  
> 
> 
> Well, yes, but wouldn't it be a bit easier to synthesise a compound if
> you had it beforehand, instead of trying to duplicate the effects from
> an old tale?
> 

Also, anyone who thinks 'we can synthesize just about anything these 
days' is not a chemist or biochemist.

Trsut me, some of the natural compounds we're finding that have 
medicinal qualities are utter whirling b*tches to synthesize in any 
quantity, *let alone* synthesize on industrial scales economically.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 14:11:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Aug  7 13:11:28 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
References: <ML-2.3.1028741494.6212.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3D517A60.60801@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Mikko V.I. Parviainen writes:
> 
>>Well, yes, but wouldn't it be a bit easier to synthesise a compound if
>>you had it beforehand, instead of trying to duplicate the effects from
>>an old tale?
> 
> 
> Not exactly the right question.  The question is whether it's more efficient to
> chase down old wives' tales, or to ignore the old wives' tales and attempt to
> synthesize drugs based on prior understanding of what they ought to do.
> 
> The herbal movement notwithstanding, most pharmaceutical companies don't seem
> to find chasing down old wives' tales, particularly extremely obscure old
> wives' tales, to be really worth doing.


ROFL!!!! We have one researcher here at the College who has a 
multimillion dollar grant, with support from NIH and a bunch of 
Pharmaceutical companies looking into the medicinal properties of arid 
lands plants.

The pharmaceutical companies are funding this research to the tunes of 
*billions* of dollars a year.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs





From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 14:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Wed Aug  7 13:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <001a01c23e54$52a53950$0b01a8c0@duck>

On Behalf Of Hal
> Hello Folks,
>    This is in response to Tim's comments regarding point defense lasers.
I
> have a few of them in all, so this is just one of many incoming
> designs.  All of them are TL 12 designs for use with GURPS
> TRAVELLER.  Please note that I was not happy with the "Logic" of having
> turret weapons who required that their "energy power plant be part of the
> main shipboard power plant.  Thus, *ALL* lasers designed by CGI include
> their own power generators.

I hope you don't mind, but this brings up a couple of questions from a GT
neophyte.  Please understand that I only have GT, not VE2 or GS3.

- What are "streamlined" and "unstreamlines" turrets?  In the GT rules
  there are just "turrets".  What is the difference?

- Do you have any TL 10 designs.  I am curious as the the relative use
  of such weapons.

Finally, I also have an unrelated questions I hope you could answer:

- Are standard GT TL10 lasers 250MJ or 360MJ?  The rules are contradictory
  on the issue.

Thanks.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 14:55:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Wed Aug  7 13:55:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re: army usage
In-Reply-To: <20020807002817.99096.qmail@web20417.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0208072247420.363897-100000@svati>

On Tue, 6 Aug 2002, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:

>Tommy, you should do some research, too.  The Taliban was composed
>primarily of Pakistani and Saudi volunteers who called themselves
>"students" (of Islam).  Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, with the knowledge
>if not the support of the United States government, formed and
>trained the Taliban and sent them to end the civil war in
>Afghanistan, which they did.  The peace they imposed was in many ways
>worse than the war.

This is true and not contrary to what I said at all. I just pointed out
that the Taliban was almost universially hated and feared inside of
Afghanistan, and that they had control over almost all of the land, except
for the small area controled by the NA. And the NA was loosing quickly.

My point was like yours that the Americans did a good job by ousting the
Taliban and that the Northern Alliance didn't have to be bribed to let
the US help them. They were in enough trouble to cheer loudly when the
US did help.

No controversy here.

ObTrav: How does the citizens of a world view interference into their
local affairs by the Imperium? I guess that it is takes a wide range
of sentiments, but that most worlds really want to settle their issues
wiyhout the IMperium medeling. Even if it means a nuclear war.

Tommy Grav
-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 14:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dominic Mooney)
Date: Wed Aug  7 13:57:03 2002
Subject: BITS - Sneak Preview was  RE: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <AC8B99B8-AA47-11D6-8866-0003930B3ACE@cybergoths.u-net.com>

> "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

> At 9:43 AM -0700 8/6/02, DeGraff, Jesse wrote:
> What about artists?  ;)
> Jesse
> Do you have any experience?  :-)


<Delurk>

If you're interested, look at Jesse's work at

http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/ghalalk_and_pf_sloan.
htm

which shows some of the models he's been building for the forthcoming BITS 
starship miniatures combat game 'Power Projection'.

By forthcoming, we are hoping for the lite rules (escorts and destroyers - 
non capital ships) at GenCon UK and the full rules before Christmas.

Dom
BITS Webmaster...

"Power Projection - 'It's all about going to other people's planets and 
making *them* do what *we* want".

--------dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia,
there's still the notion that the future is
something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." Niven/Pournelle/Flynn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 15:20:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Aug  7 14:20:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Interference
Message-ID: <200208072119.MGZ05733@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

In the Broadsword adventure, there seems to be little enough 
Imperial interference on Garda-Vilis, but more than enough 
Sword World and Zhodani interefence.

Then again, this is a border area, and a backwater border 
area at that.

The local freedom fighters seem to be pro-Imperial - the 
Tanoose Freedom League has killed Ine Givar who tried to 
recruit them.  It's almost as if the people on Garda-Vilis 
think they would get a better shake with direct Imperial 
interference than by having Vilis rule them from afar.

Then again, the Imperium doesn't seem to be in the game of 
nation building, or freedom fighting, or dispensing democracy 
at the drop of a hat.  They seem to be more interested in 
maintaining a Naval Base at Frenzie.

Gee, are there any parallels between Frenzie and Diego Garcia?
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 15:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Aug  7 14:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020807102826.009e6ec0@mindspring.com>
References: <3D5050EB.9050601@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3D523A3D.13247.2FE3DA@localhost>

On 7 Aug 2002 at 10:30, Douglas Berry wrote:

> I've always seen the Zhodani motivation in the Frontier Wars as keeping the 
> Imperium at bay.  The 1st and 2nd wars removed the Imperium  from 
> previously settled Zhodani territories and established a buffer zone.  The 
> 3 - 5 felt more like disruptive actions, designed to keep the Marches 
> scared and on the defensive.

I'm certain that this is the case, as given the poor Imperial showing 
up until the FFW if the Zho's had really wanted to come in and take the 
SM they'd probably not have been stopped short of Corridor.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 15:48:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 14:48:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <001a01c23e54$52a53950$0b01a8c0@duck>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807172615.02726970@mail.buffnet.net>

Hello Mike,


>I hope you don't mind, but this brings up a couple of questions from a GT
>neophyte.  Please understand that I only have GT, not VE2 or GS3.
>
>- What are "streamlined" and "unstreamlines" turrets?  In the GT rules
>   there are just "turrets".  What is the difference?

At the time I wrote all this, GURPS TRAVELLER was just recently released 
and there was nothing else printed.  I had a few issues with what had been 
written overall.  Since then, I've resolved those issues with respect 
towards streamlined and un-streamlined vessels.  In short?  Ignore the 
concept of Streamlined versus Un-streamlined turrets ;)



>- Do you have any TL 10 designs.  I am curious as the the relative use
>   of such weapons.

I had not worked on any TL10 designs.  At the time, I had intended to, but 
I never got around to it.


>Finally, I also have an unrelated questions I hope you could answer:
>
>- Are standard GT TL10 lasers 250MJ or 360MJ?  The rules are contradictory
>   on the issue.

Interesting ;)

I will have to take the time out and try to figure out which it is supposed 
to be.  As it stands now, I have to take the time to figure out how I set 
up my BEAM WEAPONS TL12 spread sheet so I can reproduce all the date I 
created for my web site lo those many years back.  When did Traveller first 
come out in GURPS anyhow, 1998?  '99?  Hmmmm.

For what it is worth?  I've noted that the rates of fire for lasers are 
limited by the fact the energy that goes into charging the "batteries" or 
capacitors are less than what they could be.  Someone who rerouts ship's 
manuever drive energy towards lasers can increase the rate of fire to 
extremely high rates of fire.

                   Hal


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 16:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dooley, Ryan)
Date: Wed Aug  7 15:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Probably a FAQ, but...
Message-ID: <C0B11D0413A966428A8FAAED4B198CA46AC8BE@col-mailnode03.col.missouri.edu>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C23E4B.90149D70
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Howdy,

=20

I don't know if this has been discussed to death or not yet but since
I've not seen traffic on the topic as of late, anybody know the word on
T5?

=20

Cheers,

            Ryan


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	charset="us-ascii"
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<html>

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<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">


<meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 10 (filtered)">

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<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Howdy,</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I don&#8217;t know if this has been discussed to =
death or
not yet but since I&#8217;ve not seen traffic on the topic as of late, =
anybody
know the word on T5?</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Cheers,</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp; Ryan</span></font></p>

</div>

</body>

</html>
=00
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 16:08:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug  7 15:08:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Spam Spam Spam Spam...
Message-ID: <11b.147a05c3.2a82e8cc@cs.com>

--part1_11b.147a05c3.2a82e8cc_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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In a message dated 8/7/02 3:53:47 AM Central Daylight Time, 
jenry023@student.liu.se writes:


> Come to think of it, most products that come from special places are not 
> considered luxuries there, but they probably are at other locations.
> 
> Groat Musk Perfume would be a nasty thing to hit the PCs with...  ;-)
> 
> * Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
> 

More like, "Groat Musk Perfume would be a nasty thing to suffer a container 
breach while in the PC's cargo hold..." Especially in a S-class Scout/Courier.

Simon Jester
-------------------
Vikings? There ain't no vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was 
burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway. That's 
our story and we're sticking to it.



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Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 8/7/02 3:53:47 AM Central Daylight Time, jenry023@student.liu.se writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Come to think of it, most products that come from special places are not considered luxuries there, but they probably are at other locations.
<BR>
<BR>Groat Musk Perfume would be a nasty thing to hit the PCs with... &nbsp;;-)
<BR>
<BR>* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>More like, "Groat Musk Perfume would be a nasty thing to suffer a container breach while in the PC's cargo hold..." Especially in a S-class Scout/Courier.
<BR>
<BR>Simon Jester
<BR>-------------------
<BR>Vikings? There ain't no vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway. That's our story and we're sticking to it.
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>

--part1_11b.147a05c3.2a82e8cc_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 16:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Wed Aug  7 15:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807172615.02726970@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <001b01c23e5e$c9983a80$0b01a8c0@duck>

On Behalf Of Hal
> >- Do you have any TL 10 designs.  I am curious as the the relative use
> >   of such weapons.
>
> I had not worked on any TL10 designs.  At the time, I had intended to, but
> I never got around to it.

The reason I ask is that I have lately gotten into the kick of just ignoring
GTL12/TTL15 and seeing what I can get at "medium" TLs like GTL10/TTL12.  I
do wish there were GTL9 modules published somewhere.  I *really* want to be
able to make some GTL9 ships.

> >Finally, I also have an unrelated questions I hope you could answer:
> >
> >- Are standard GT TL10 lasers 250MJ or 360MJ?  The rules are
contradictory
> >   on the issue.
>
> Interesting ;)

>From what I can see (I own GT, BtC and AR1) GT 1e used 360MJ for TL10, but
it was changed to 250MJ in GT 2e.  Unfortunately all modules made pre-2e
(like AR1) still refer to 360MJ, and even some things in GT 2e still refer
to 360MJ.

I do admit I don't even know for sure that they made the change.  I am
just assuming it from the contradictory references.  That is why I was
asking about the TL10 lasers you played with.  Assuming I am correct, I
guess someone figured out that a 360MJ laser at TL10 ended up being too
big, so it was adjusted down.

Anyway, thanks for the answers.  I do appreciate it.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 16:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Aug  7 15:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <001b01c23e5e$c9983a80$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028758470.4086.ajackson@ping>

Mike West writes:
> I do admit I don't even know for sure that they made the change.  I am
> just assuming it from the contradictory references.

Mostly, the change is because it was determined that the 360MJ laser takes up
more than 500 cf.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 16:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Aug  7 15:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Probably a FAQ, but...
In-Reply-To: <C0B11D0413A966428A8FAAED4B198CA46AC8BE@col-mailnode03.col.missouri.edu>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028758541.2749.ajackson@ping>

Dooley, Ryan writes:
> 
> I don't know if this has been discussed to death or not yet but since
> I've not seen traffic on the topic as of late, anybody know the word on
> T5?

I don't think there's been official word, but I wouldn't hold your breath.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 16:17:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug  7 15:17:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
In-Reply-To: <20020807183944.5641.qmail@web10602.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020807183944.5641.qmail@web10602.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020808081638.A491@freeman.little-possums.net>

Daniel Burns wrote:
> "Would you believe... Our top psychics are manning our sensor grid
> right now, and can get a precognitive firing solution weeks or even
> years before the target shows up?" ;)

Of course I do.  That's just one of many ways in which the Consulate
protects its proles :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 16:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug  7 15:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807154015.00a37d60@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net> <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com> <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com> <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net> <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net> <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20020807154015.00a37d60@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020808082655.B491@freeman.little-possums.net>

Hal wrote:
> The SL23a still uses the 62,384 kilowatt second battery that the SL23 uses, 
> but instead, uses a 31,192 kilowatt fusion power plant.

Just a question; how do you get a RoF of 1.33 when the pwoer plant
takes 2 seconds to recharge the energy banks?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 16:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug  7 15:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807172615.02726970@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net> <001a01c23e54$52a53950$0b01a8c0@duck> <5.0.2.1.2.20020807172615.02726970@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020808085800.C491@freeman.little-possums.net>

Hal wrote:
> For what it is worth?  I've noted that the rates of fire for lasers are 
> limited by the fact the energy that goes into charging the "batteries" or 
> capacitors are less than what they could be.

This is a problem with all G:Traveller modular designs.  In normal
space, you can always use the power allocated in design to maintaining
the jump field.  This is at least 200 kW/dton.


>  Someone who rerouts ship's manuever drive energy towards lasers can
> increase the rate of fire to extremely high rates of fire.

If the average density of starships is about 4 tonnes per dton, then
each gee of thrust reduction diverts 400 kW/dton to other systems.
This will benefit a lightly-armed ship.  A heavily armed ship will
hardly notice, since such a ship already has a far higher power
requirement for weapons than for maneuver drives.

Now, diverting power from bay weapons or spinal mounts to turrets is
quite a different story.  That might be a good idea in a point-defense
situation.  It might raise the RoF by a factor of thirty in extreme
cases, for a +5 RoF bonus.  It's a pity that RoF doesn't actually do
much :/


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 17:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 16:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <20020808082655.B491@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807154015.00a37d60@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020807154015.00a37d60@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807191227.027257b0@mail.buffnet.net>

At 08:26 AM 08/08/2002 +1000, you wrote:
>Hal wrote:
> > The SL23a still uses the 62,384 kilowatt second battery that the SL23 
> uses,
> > but instead, uses a 31,192 kilowatt fusion power plant.
>
>Just a question; how do you get a RoF of 1.33 when the pwoer plant
>takes 2 seconds to recharge the energy banks?

I goofed - I read it wrong and was in a hurry to transscribe the 
information into email from my old HTML...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 17:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Aug  7 16:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <OFDEC7001F.B4AA8375-ON42256C0E.001D1133@ko.com>
References: <OFDEC7001F.B4AA8375-ON42256C0E.001D1133@ko.com>
Message-ID: <p04330109b977629d272b@[198.123.22.179]>

>Sufficiently advanced technology makes life on an airless
>rockball possible - why would such a species need to preserve
>its wildlife?

Well, if we assume that the airless rockball is totally self 
suficient (not just sufficient over a timescale of week or months) I 
see two reasons...

1) Economics, a natural ecosystem maintains itself (and hence is a 
lot cheaper).
2) Comfort, just because the rockball is livable, doesn't mean it 
produces everything people would want.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 19:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Aug  7 18:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] System Gen Help
In-Reply-To: <c9.261a11c4.2a7d38e2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20807.181758.5x2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> If a captured planet is in a gas giant's orbit though then it should
> become a moon or impact the gas giant eventually, or perhaps
> eventually be thrown out of orbit away from or towards the star.

It could wind up in a stable relationship with the GG. 

If it's sufficiently smaller than the GG (1/80th?) it could be stable
at one of the Trojan points.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 19:26:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Aug  7 18:26:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
In-Reply-To: <200208051642.JAA31293@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <20807.182739.9w7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>Lowest GG density = .1
>>Average GG density ~= .21
>>Highest GG density = .3
>
> Assuming that's g/cc, that's horribly wrong. Saturn has a density of 0.69
> and is probably near the low end of possible densities; all of the other
> gas giants have densities between 1 and 2.  A large gas giant, at 4x
> jupiter mass and about the same diameter, would be as dense as the earth.

Densities are likely in units such the Earth has a density of 1.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 19:44:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Aug  7 18:44:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Briefing Depicted Saudis as Enemies (washingtonpost.com)
In-Reply-To: <3D51CB90.53932375@minn.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020807204455.00a7f6f0@minn.net>


Found this article via the www.FrontPageMag.com website:

 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47913-2002Aug5.html

Obtrav: What if an allied state in the Vargr Extents acts against Imperial
interests?

(Hmmm...there's an idea for my serial space opera project...)


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 19:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Hamill)
Date: Wed Aug  7 18:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] GTS-the progrem
In-Reply-To: <20020807183403.21704.67892.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020808015159.46560.qmail@web21505.mail.yahoo.com>


> 
> Message: 1
> From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] GTS-the program
> Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 16:10:33 +0000
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> From: John Hamill <jwdh71@yahoo.com>
> 
>      "I have a chance to get a two-part
> GURPS:Traveller game together, 
> during a weekend mini-con at the local game store,
> and I really need a 
> couple of ships fast. Well, faster than I can do
> them by hand, anyway."
> 
> 
> Mr. Hamill,
> 
>      IIRC, the BITS website has a wonderful,
> massive, and free PDF download 
> chocked full of G:T ships.  Al TLs, all races, all
> functions too.  Why build 
> ships when someone else has done the work for you
> already?  :)
>      A free PDF reader can be downloaded at the
> Adobe webiste too.
>      Google should point you to both locations.
> 
> 
>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen

A great idea sir, but unfortunately just any old ships
won't do. See I'm running an old adventure from MT
days, in a non-canon universe, using GURPS: Traveller
(as that's what I have on hand, not wanting to get my
old LBB set out of storage and not having mt MT books
anymore. I need to redesign for G:T a 10,000 dton,
United States of America class frontier patrol
cruiser, the Republica Federal de Mexico, it's small
craft and fighters, as well as the Terran
Confederation Marines landers. As you can tell, it
will be an active duty adventure, and the specific
adventure will be mostly slated for ground combat,
however, there is some chance of space action, and I
want to be prepared for it. Thanks for the heads up
though, I will be looking for that at the nearest
opportunity.

Interestingly, this campaign came to mind when the
list was discussing rules changes. We used a few
(including the no-kill during char gen), but the
biggest one was to fiddle with the fuel for jumps.
When I started playing the original LBB's, many of my
fellow players were either ex-military, current
college students, or both. several of the motre
scientific ones complained about the extreme amounts
of fuel used for jump, and pointed out that the ship
would melt if it tried to fuse even a portion of that
amount before or during a jump. The GM at the time
agreed with him, and didn't like the fuel for jump
situation anyway (he was trying to simulate a universe
from a novel, and didn't use the OTU), so he simply
dispensed with fuel requirements for the jump drive.
All you had to do was have a power plant the same size
or larger than your jump drive, and thats all. It
definitely chaqnged the game from what it was designed
as, and made tactics for intersteller war completely
different than in the normal Traveller universe. OTOH,
you could actually see freighters, especially small
ones, begin to make a profit, even from regular cargo.
Others in the group made up new combat rules, both for
space and ground combat, and we used those instead. I
gamed with them for several years, but moved away
eventually. 
But I still messed around with the rules, and when I
had another group of victi...er, players, I started a
non-canon game with them. I set it in a future Terran
Confederation, sort of a ramped up UN in space, and
the best campaign we had was an active duty campaign,
aboard the above frontier patrol cruiser. I did use
jump fuel, but cut the requirement to a tenth of
canon. However I still designed ships the book way, so
your average ship, at least the military and scout
ships, had a 10 jump fuel reserve. So your type S
scout/courier could do 10 jump 2's before needing to
be refueled. Or for civilian vessels, they could carry
less fuel and add cargo space. It worked out well for
this campaign, since they were supposed to patrol the
frontier of the Confederation, and also protect and
aid any colonies in their area, it allowed for a much
greater range for their ship. It also allowed me to
effectively cut the PC's off from higher authority,
and made them responsible for whatever happened on
their watch. It was great watching them try to come up
with ways to explain their actions to command (in the
reports which I made them write up). A great campaign
it was.
So I'm going to try a simple one-shot (well, actually
a two part one-shot) to see if I can't get my local
group into our Great Game, we'll see how it goes.

John
jwdh71@yahoo.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 19:53:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mosaic Tapestry)
Date: Wed Aug  7 18:53:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Probably a FAQ, but...
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1028758541.2749.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <001001c23e7e$2acd8a70$2f7de40c@loki>

I'd enquire here:

http://www.travellerrpg.com/cgi-bin/Trav/CotI/Discuss/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb
=forum;f=11


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 22:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug  7 21:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] John Beats The Dead Horse of Imperial Rules Of War...
Message-ID: <OFB4C576D0.DD4913B9-ONCA256C0F.00177D95@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

John wrote:
>The player characters in any Traveller party would often fall 
>into the category of illegal combatant.  They aren't wearing 
>a uniform, they don't belong to an official army, and aren't 
>part of an officially responsible chain of command.  In a war 
>zone, if they were caught fighting an official military 
>force, and they surrendered, would they be considered 
>prisoners of war, or would they be shot out of hand after the 
>local Imperial Marine lieutenant heard his platoon sergeant's 
>report?

I believe that mercenaries, available and used in the standard way that 
Trav says they are used, would only be possible under the canonical "Rules 
of War" scheme. That is, with merc troops being recognised as legitimate 
forces, with repatriation bonds, etc. Exactly what David Drake writes 
about - I'm sure he must have cribbed a bit from Traveller.

In this situation, the PCs will be OK as long as they are recognised as 
being part of a legitimate merc unit. One of the fun things I forced my 
players to do was to apply for a company-sized merc licence...

Have a look under Tavonni Specialties ==> Soldiers of Fortune ==> Adifux Inc LIC Pty Ltd.  ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 22:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug  7 21:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: MT Vehicles
Message-ID: <OFC8A19485.1B58CE65-ONCA256C0F.001962BE@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Peter said:
>I'm in the process of detailing out the armed forces  of  Efate's
>Regular Army for a Landgrab.

Try browsing the Incredible Dean Files[TM]:
        http://www.solstation.com/core/dean_files_en.htm

Of the TL 13 entries, roughly 20 out of 50 are vehicles. Then you can grab 
some at lower TL's to fill in for the logistics & civvies.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 22:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Aug  7 21:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] John Beats The Dead Horse of Imperial Rules Of War...
In-Reply-To: <OFB4C576D0.DD4913B9-ONCA256C0F.00177D95@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020807235157.00a78ca0@minn.net>

At 02:27 PM 8/8/2002 +1000, david.d.jaques-watson wrote:

>I believe that mercenaries, available and used in the standard way that 
>Trav says they are used, would only be possible under the canonical "Rules 
>of War" scheme. That is, with merc troops being recognised as legitimate 
>forces, with repatriation bonds, etc. Exactly what David Drake writes 
>about - I'm sure he must have cribbed a bit from Traveller.

I wouldn't think so. If I recall correctly, Hammer's Slammers was
originally patched together from a series of shorter stories published in
ANALOG before the publication of the LBB's.

I should think that Drake's work was an influence on Book 4 and subsequent
works on mercenary ops in CT.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 23:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug  7 22:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Interference
Message-ID: <OF161D1D12.25FFD37E-ONCA256C0F.001C7739@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

John wrote:
>The local freedom fighters seem to be pro-Imperial - the 
>Tanoose Freedom League has killed Ine Givar who tried to 
>recruit them.  It's almost as if the people on Garda-Vilis 
>think they would get a better shake with direct Imperial 
>interference than by having Vilis rule them from afar.

FWIW, in my campaign I put the "Aces & Eights" scenario on G-V. Everything 
seems to fit:
        - if Vilis was originally populated by Sword Worlders, then hiring 
a S-W merc outfit is not out of the question;
        - Colonel Semyon (from A&E) leads a Sword Worlder merc unit - 
hmmm;
        - as John says, the rebels appear to be pro-Imperial;
        - the guy who hid the money is an ex-Imperial intel officer, 
currently supporting the "rebels", another hmmm.

2 + 2 = 5? Works for me!  ;-)  ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 00:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug  7 23:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] sound of rolling dice
Message-ID: <103.1984cd5e.2a8363c3@aol.com>

 >> Traveller Adventure: Comet Busters
 >> 
 >> For referees only.  If you intend to play this adventure, quit reading 
now 
 >> and direct your game referee to this page. 
 >
 >*sound of harddrive saving file*

Yes, but will there be the sound of rolling dice?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 01:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 00:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] army usage
Message-ID: <24.29a1836f.2a837238@aol.com>

 >>On the other hand, if the latest briefs are any indication and we launch 
any 
 >>military action against the house of Saud, then I think we're going to 
have 
 >>to occupy everything from Libya to Jakarta.  That _will_ require an army, 
and 
 >>I'm not sure we have one.
 >
 >I've been really busy at work recently but I wasn't aware that the US 
planned 
 >to invade Saudi Arabia, where, the last time I looked the House of Saud 
were 
 >in charge.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A50022-2002Aug6.html

 >Have things changed and has the US decided to after the single biggest 
source 
 >of  al-Qaida funding?

You mean americans filling up their SUV gas tanks?  A far tougher opponent 
than Saddam.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 01:19:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 00:19:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re: army usage
Message-ID: <cf.1b176136.2a8374ff@aol.com>

 >My point was like yours that the Americans did a good job by ousting the
 >Taliban and that the Northern Alliance didn't have to be bribed to let
 >the US help them.

I guess you misunderstood me.  I didn't say they had to be bribed to let the 
US help them.  I said that previously they were a bunch of looters and 
bandits, but that now they seemed to be too busy spending lots of aid money 
to bother with looting.  The bribe was to keep them from looting and to leave 
the common people alone, not to fight.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 01:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Thu Aug  8 00:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <3D517A60.60801@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3D52C5CC.22171.37657C@localhost>

On 7 Aug 2002, at 12:52, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Anthony Jackson wrote:

> > The herbal movement notwithstanding, most pharmaceutical companies don't
> > seem to find chasing down old wives' tales, particularly extremely obscure
> > old wives' tales, to be really worth doing.

> ROFL!!!! We have one researcher here at the College who has a 
> multimillion dollar grant, with support from NIH and a bunch of 
> Pharmaceutical companies looking into the medicinal properties of arid 
> lands plants.

Even ignoring the problems of synthesing a complex pharmaceutical, it 
really helps when you have a ready supply of complex chemicals on hand 
for testing.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 02:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 01:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <e4e645e4c45c.e4c45ce4e645@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
Date: Wednesday, August 7, 2002 2:57 am
Subject: Re: [TML] re:  Silly Question

> 
> Jeff D. Greenly" says
> <snip naval change of command>
> 
> Don't forget - the outgoing commander has to do an inventory 
> with the new commander, and the new commander gets to sign 
> for the ship and all of the equipment in it.

Anybody know if a _Nimitz_-class CVN has a National Stock Number? ;-)

As the incoming captain signs a one-page hand receipt for "Carrier, 
Aircraft, Nuclear-Powered, w/ancillary equipment"...then spends the next 
week signing all the annexes to the hand receipt....

ObTrav:  GT:GF mentions the 3I's equivalent to NSNs; do major warship 
classes have such numbers?

<<snip>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 02:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Aug  8 01:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Spam Spam Spam Spam...
In-Reply-To: <11b.147a05c3.2a82e8cc@cs.com>
References: <11b.147a05c3.2a82e8cc@cs.com>
Message-ID: <20020808101200.30a20555.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Wed, 07 Aug 2002 17:19:08 -0400 (EDT)
Damage169@cs.com wrote:

> More like, "Groat Musk Perfume would be a nasty thing to suffer a container 
> breach while in the PC's cargo hold..." Especially in a S-class Scout/Courier.

Yes, that would be a very nasty problem. Very subtle. How would the PCs notice that the cargo container had been damaged?

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 02:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Aug  8 01:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] sound of rolling dice
In-Reply-To: <103.1984cd5e.2a8363c3@aol.com>
References: <103.1984cd5e.2a8363c3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020808101438.23274eb3.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Thu, 08 Aug 2002 02:03:47 -0400 (EDT)
Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> Yes, but will there be the sound of rolling dice?

Tough question. Eventually yes, but at the moment I don't run any Traveller campaign (Rolemaster, Vampire, and Torg fill my RPG time). I am working on creating a Traveller campaign in which your adventure would fit nicely, though... will run it as soon as one of the other campaigns end...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 02:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 01:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
Message-ID: <e53186e50939.e50939e53186@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: JFZeigler@aol.com
Date: Wednesday, August 7, 2002 4:23 am
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Silly Question

> >Naval JAG: So what happened to the three 15" guns that used to in 
> the aft 
> >turret?
> >Captain: What 15" guns? This is a destroyer!
> >Naval JAG: The ones in the property book you signed for when you 
> took 
> >command. I'm afraid we can't allow you to retire until those are 
> paid for . 
> . 
> 
> Heh. Anyone remember the classic SF story "Allamagoosa?"

Was that the one with the ship's "offog"?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 03:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Thu Aug  8 02:27:03 2002
Subject: MT Vehicles (was: Re: [TML] Landgrab )
In-Reply-To: <000401c23e1b$85fa2ec0$5600a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPOEENEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

I have a number of MT vehicles and ships on my site, enough to fully equip a
TL13 marined regiment. Find them at www.users.bigpond.com/Skaran if you are
interested.

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Peter L.S. Trevor
Sent: Wednesday, 7 August 2002 7:16 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: MT Vehicles (was: Re: [TML] Landgrab )


Hyphen wrote:
> Peter asked:
> >Does anyone have (or know of) some software  or  spreadsheet  for
> >creating ground vehicles using MT rules?  I need to create  about
> >a dozen different military vehicles for my Efate landgrab.
>
> I created one, but it is a little basic and assumes you have the
> rules to plug the numbers in. (I did it years ago when I was
> worried about copyright and didn't know how to write a database
> spreadsheet. I still don't... ;-)
>
> I downloaded one from the 'net... Ships III from Ace and The Dog's
> website. However, I can't remember if it covers vehicles. It's a
> bit flaky and can crash unexpectedly, so save often!
>         http://www.ace-dog.com/downloads/downloads.htm
>
> Would pulling a couple of designs from 101 Vehicles help? What are
> you after, specifically?

Ships III doesn't do vehicles (according to its manual there  are
no ground vehicle drives, etc).  I have been trying  to  use  the
DOS program for vehicles from the same site but it seems to  have
major flaws (either that or my own math  is  way  off).  And  101
Vehicles doesn't have the range I need.

I'm in the process of detailing out the armed forces  of  Efate's
Regular Army for a Landgrab.  As this is  a  place  with  a  high
chance of merc adventures (think  high-tech  'Nam  in  Traveller)
this detail seems more important than with  other  Landgrabs.  So
far I have a need for an MBT, an air  defence  AFV,  3  different
artillery AFVs, assorted AFVs for EW/ND/command/commo, a recovery
vehicle, a field repair vehicle, a G-Carrier with 3 variants,  an
APC with 5 variants, and a fast recon vehicle (possibly a  Trasea
grav bike for the last).  Before I'm done  I'll  probably  double
this list, and thats before I get to the COACC  aerospace  units,
the rear  echelon  support  vehicles,  or  the  typical  civilian
vehicles used by the militia on both sides!  If  anyone's  got  a
fetish for designing lots of MT vehicles I could pre-release  the
unit org charts for a better understanding of the requirements.

Hmmm ... or how about a TL 13 military vehicle rodeo (MT only)?

Regards PLST




_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 03:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 02:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] animals
Message-ID: <17b.c949cc4.2a839732@aol.com>

Hummingbee

    Similar to a hummingbird though larger.  Small fast and agile.  
    Brilliant colors and plumage that varies from hummingbee 
    to hummingbee.  Omnivorous -- fairly strong beak with 
    serrated edges.  Eats fruit, insects, and small animals.  
    Large and strong stinger hidden in butt, coated with a 
    gel that causes excruciating pain (in humans).  Lone females are 
    highly curious, friendly, and sociable, and can even be 
    taught tricks.  Lone females begin laying and tending eggs in 
    extreamly well-hidden nests in early spring.  The 
    initial hummingbees that hatch, all female, behave 
    similarly to their mother.  The mother then begins 
      remaining in the nest and laying eggs at a prodigious 
    rate, becoming similar to a terran queen ant with the 
    hatchlings bringing her food as needed.  
    As the colony increases in size the hummingbees become 
    less friendly, gradually becoming aggressively 
    territorial towards anything which approaches their 
    nest.  Eventually they attack 
    anything which comes near.  Hummingbees attack initially by flying 
    butt first at their target with their stingers extended, with follow-up
      attacks using their beaks.
      In late summer the queen hummingbee produces a handful 
    of males, which leave the colony in search of other 
    colonies.  If a foreign male finds the colony he breeds 
    with all the hummingbees in the nest, who then leave to 
    form their own colonies next spring.  The queen and the 
    male then die.  If no males appear then the colony 
    remains until one arrives.

Flying Cougar

    Similar to a terran mountain lion.  Its bones and 
    claws are lighter and thinner, but its jaws are large 
    and strong.  It has flaps of skin between its legs very 
    similar to those of a terran flying squirrel.  Weighs 
    about 40 lbs.  The flying cougar hunts by lurking high 
    up in trees or cliffs, watching for small to medium-sized animals 
    on the ground.  If it sees one in range it will leap 
    off of its perch and silently glide down to land on the 
    animal, dispatching it with a quick bite to the back of 
    the head.  The flying cougar can also hunt conventionally on
      the ground if it has to, and it is reasonably 
    quiet quick and agile.  The flying cougar is not 
    particularly strong and does not like to attack 
    human-sized prey, but an upright human may appear small 
    to a carnivore observing him from above and may be 
    attacked.  If the flying cougar's initial bite does not 
    kill and the prey is too large for it then the flying 
    cougar will try to run away.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 05:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 04:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The power of the Nobility
Message-ID: <ea07c4ea0052.ea0052ea07c4@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Date: Friday, July 26, 2002 9:40 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: The power of the Nobility


<<snip discussion of weapons use inside airliners>> 
> 
> Just give everybody stun guns.  They are relatively safe, handy at 
> closequarters and fairly effective.

May I please use mine on the overly-chatty passenger in the seat next 
to me?

ObTrav:  Ever notice that the areas on a ship in which gunplay is most 
likely (e.g., the bridge, engineering) are also the most vulnerable to 
the effects of stray rounds? ;-)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 06:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Aug  8 05:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] vilis landgrab
References: <20020806013403.4631.56000.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <014c01c23edb$56263660$545d8690@computer>

> Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 20:43:34 -0400
> From: "John T. Kwon"
> >I also had some thoughts about the factions of the Ine Givar
> >that were present, and their relationships with each other,
> >the Tanoose Freedom League, and Solomani supremicist groups,
> >but I will spare you those.
> No, tell me more.

Well, briefly...

IMTU, the main Ine Givar faction on Vilis looks to the Sword Worlds for
inspiration and support. A smaller faction is vaguely aligned with the
"Regina faction" who are independent, but vaguely pro-Zhodani and pro-Vargr.

The Sword Worlds is a Solomani culture, as, ultimately, is that of Vilis, so
they tend to be a bit soft on Solomani supremacists. These leads to problems
between the Ine Givar factions, since the Regina faction is rigourously
pansophontist, while the Sword Worlder faction are very soft on the
question.

The differences rarely erupt into violence, but it is rather more likely
that the Regina faction are involved in periodic struggles to defend the
Tanoosian and Vilani minorities on Vilis from Solomani supremacist gangs.
They may therefore be on better terms with the TFL than the Sword Worlder
faction, but, on the other hand, the Sword Worlder group have more money,
and support from an interstellar government.

The Regina faction only rarely engages in terrorism, and prefers to organise
non-violently. The Sword Worlds faction ...umm... There may be other
factions, as well, at least some of which could best be described as "nutty
splinter groups", or even "agents provocateur".

I hope some of this is of use to you.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 06:55:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Aug  8 05:55:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Cleon V (was Arbellatra)
References: <20020806190006.21475.58141.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <014b01c23edb$5508df80$545d8690@computer>

I haven't had time to check my emails for a couple of days, so I am
responding to oldish stuff.

> From: Donald McKinney <dmckinne@amdocs.com>
> Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 13:12:03 -0500
> I also explained the elevation of Archduke Soegz as the replacement of
> one of Emperor Joseph's (the man who defeated Cleon V, I hope I'm
> remembering right) backers...

My take is that there was an "Antares faction" that installed Martin VI, a
member of the Lentuli family, as a puppet.

Inevitably, he started to get ideas of his own, and Gustus, one of the
leaders of the faction, knocked him off.

The role of the Antares fleet in the struggle between Arbellatra and Gustus
would be one of the factors that would be involved in my PBEM, if it
happens.

(Unfortunately, this doesn't look likely at the moment - I am hopefully
going to be moving next week, which will at least temporarily disrupt my
email access.)

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com








From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 06:55:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Aug  8 05:55:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
References: <20020806203610.24254.48308.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <014d01c23edb$56ded800$545d8690@computer>

> Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 11:35:10
> From: "Douglas E. Berry"
> She probably played a different game with the Vilani.  Promises of
> increased power in the court, culminating with her son's marriage to a
> Vilani noblewoman in 679.

She was long dead, and out of the picture in 679.

To assume the marriage to Antiama was a result of the policy of Arbellatra,
rather than of Zhakirov, is to reduce Zhakirov to a cypher, and take
Arbellatra cultism a bit too far for my tastes.

In fact, I tend to take the references on Solomani influence at court being
at its height during Arbellatra's reign at face value - Zhakirov's policy
was a break from that of his mother. (And nearly led to civil war, and
actually did lead to the Imperium effectively being split in two!)

> As she drew closer to Capital, I'm sure that pretender fleets defected en
> masse rather than face annihilation.

<mumble> I really wanna do my PBEM...

> She was only 28 when the war broke out, according to canon.  I'd prefer to
> push her date of birth back to 567, making her 48 at the beginning of the
> war.  This at least gives her the age to have had a fairly long career and
> been at least an experienced Captain or junior Admiral.  This would, IMHO,
> make her seizure of the fleets far more acceptable.  No one is going to
> listen to a pup of a Ltd. Commander.

Gratuitous nepotism goes a long way. I don't see any particular problem
about her taking over the family business, especially during the Civil War,
when warlordism was rife.

A good staff will cover a multitude of sins, especially if it includes
people like Soegz. In fact, Soegz may have been the real genius.

> Does this time line work for people?

No!  : )

I've got way too many prejudices of my own on this topic. I've spent too
much time on it to not have.

It's a shame I probably won't be able to run my PBEM (in the short term). I
think my interpretation would play really well, and be plausible enough for
most people. And Gustus would probably win, given that commanders of
Arbellatra's calibre are rare.  : )

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 07:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  8 06:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
Message-ID: <200208081259.MIF02312@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Alan Bradley" says
>To assume the marriage to Antiama was a result of the policy 
>of Arbellatra, rather than of Zhakirov, is to reduce 
>Zhakirov to a cypher, and take Arbellatra cultism a bit too 
>far for my tastes.


Well, we've got the director of Braveheart doing a movie 
about Arbellatra, and we're going to play fast and loose with 
who was born when, among other historical distortions...
________________
It is impossible to travel faster than 
the speed of light and certainly not 
desirable, as ones hat keeps falling 
off...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 07:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 06:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Cleon V (was Arbellatra)
Message-ID: <f277fff28158.f28158f277ff@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Alan Bradley <abradley1@bigpond.com>
Date: Thursday, August 8, 2002 2:58 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Cleon V (was Arbellatra)

> I haven't had time to check my emails for a couple of days, so I am
> responding to oldish stuff.
> 
> > From: Donald McKinney <dmckinne@amdocs.com>
> > Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 13:12:03 -0500
> > I also explained the elevation of Archduke Soegz as the 
> replacement of
> > one of Emperor Joseph's (the man who defeated Cleon V, I hope I'm
> > remembering right) backers...
> 
> My take is that there was an "Antares faction" that installed 
> Martin VI, a
> member of the Lentuli family, as a puppet.
> 
> Inevitably, he started to get ideas of his own, and Gustus, one of the
> leaders of the faction, knocked him off.
> 
> The role of the Antares fleet in the struggle between Arbellatra 
> and Gustus
> would be one of the factors that would be involved in my PBEM, if it
> happens.

As an aside, the AuricTech Shipyards writeup in _101 Corporations_ 
mentions that AuricTech backed an unsuccessful pretender to the Iridium 
Throne during the Civil Wars (this led to the "donation" [read: 
confiscation] of most AuricTech stock, putting that stock in Imperial 
hands until it was sold to LSP).  At the time, AuricTech was 
headquartered on Sylea (or was it Capital by then?).

Can anyone suggest who such a pretender might have been?

<<snip>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 08:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 07:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Merging WTH & PE
Message-ID: <f3dd78f3fc11.f3fc11f3dd78@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Long <AndrewGLong@yahoo.com>
Date: Monday, July 8, 2002 4:20 pm
Subject: [TML] Merging WTH & PE

> I've been reading World Tamer's Handbook and Pocket Empires the 
> last week or
> so, and think it might be possible to massage them sufficiently to 
> make WTH
> feed into PE. However, I thought I'd make sure I wasn't re-
> inventing the
> wheel, and wondered if anyone else had taken a stab at it, and was 
> preparedto share their thoughts?
> 
> regards, Andy
> 
> PS - any spreadsheets around for PE or WTH?

I'm currently working on a semi-automated PE spreadsheet for 
calculating GWPs and government revenues.  As of right now, it does the 
calculations, but the user has to manually input the values.  
Eventually, I'll have tables so that the spreadsheet can automatically 
look up values based on government type et cetera, but the spreadsheet 
is right now good enough for my needs.

Any suggestions for other functions to be added as time and energy 
permit?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 09:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff D. Greenly)
Date: Thu Aug  8 08:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] I won the lottery!
Message-ID: <sd5254a9.055@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>

And now, from the I can't believe this actually happened to me files...

My SO and I were out shopping and running errands last night after
work. On the way home, she noticed that there were signs for a yard sale
to begin this morning and extend through Saturday. Never ones to pass up
good deals or good junk, we decided that if there was anyone/anything
out there this morning as we were on our way to work, we'd stop and take
a quick look...

Well, the sponsors of this particular sale were setting out their stuff
as we came up this morning, and my eye was immediately drawn to several
boxes of books that they were beginning to unpack. There were a LOT of
old science fiction paperbacks, and I started rummaging through them,
picking out a few that I wanted to buy. Out of the corner of my eye, I
noticed a familiar cover design as a box was opened, one that was black
with a red stripe! I turned to look into the box, and lo! a fairly
complete Classic Traveller collection!!!! The whole box was full of
LBB's, box sets, box games, and a copy of 5FW! I asked why these were
being sold, and the lady explained that her son was grown and in the
service and had said that he didn't want any of this stuff any more. I
asked her what she would take for the whole box, and she looked at me
with surprise, then said, "Well, how about 20 bucks?" 

As soon as I've done an inventory, I'll post a list of what's available
to sell and trade...


Jeff


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 09:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Aug  8 08:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT but soooo like a PC....
Message-ID: <3D528D4E.6010208@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

http://www.comics.com/creators/speedbump/archive/images/speedbump2002228570801.gif


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 09:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Thu Aug  8 08:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT but soooo like a PC....
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F160D@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

LOL!  Cute one :)
Jesse

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bruce Johnson [mailto:johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu]
> Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 8:25 AM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] OT but soooo like a PC....
> 
> 
> http://www.comics.com/creators/speedbump/archive/images/speedb
> ump2002228570801.gif
> 
> 
> -- 
> Bruce Johnson
> University of Arizona
> College of Pharmacy
> Information Technology Group
> 
> Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 10:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Thu Aug  8 09:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How many Xboats...
Message-ID: <3D529971.86914BB@mail.cswnet.com>

...does it take to replace a light bulb?

But Seriously...

How many Xboats/Xboat tenders does one need to maintain a single
Xboat Route?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 10:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  8 09:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How many Xboats...
Message-ID: <200208081636.MIN00707@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Roseberry asks
>How many Xboats/Xboat tenders does one need to maintain a 
>single Xboat Route?

I want to know how often X-boats leave and arrive.  If the 
boats leave on the hour (assuming a 24 hour clock), and the 
planet has a route to two other systems, then there are at 
least 48 x-boats (there should be spares, to allow for 
maintenance rotation).  Then, how many tenders do you need to 
handle two arrivals and two departures per hour?  And do we 
assume that an x-boat has to be chased down in order to get 
its messages?  I've always assumed that 99 percent of 
messages are electronic, and laser communication between an x-
boat and its tender is the form of transmission.  So, a 
tender only has to be within 1 light hour of an arriving x-
boat in order to receive messages and 1 light hour of the 
departing x-boat (for messages relayed onwards).

I'm not sure if some systems would want to have an x-boat on 
the half-hour, or more often.
________________
It is impossible to travel faster than 
the speed of light and certainly not 
desirable, as ones hat keeps falling 
off...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 10:51:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christian K)
Date: Thu Aug  8 09:51:04 2002
Subject: [TML] How many Xboats...
References: <200208081636.MIN00707@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <000f01c23efb$af484e20$0664a8c0@bigdarkone>

<snip>
>I've always assumed that 99 percent of
> messages are electronic, and laser communication between an x-
> boat and its tender is the form of transmission.  So, a
> tender only has to be within 1 light hour of an arriving x-
> boat in order to receive messages and 1 light hour of the
> departing x-boat (for messages relayed onwards).
<snip>

An XBoat per hour is darn much if you ask me considering the time of roughly
one week between jumps an hour is nothing why hurry where there is no need ?
I would asume 2 or 3 boats a day is more realistic besides the fact that at
last under GT rules travel time is not fixed it ranges between 6 and 7days
48mins.

just my two cents

Chris



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 10:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  8 09:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT but soooo like a PC....
In-Reply-To: <3D528D4E.6010208@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020808092952.009feec0@mindspring.com>

At 08:25 AM 8/8/02 -0700, you wrote:
>http://www.comics.com/creators/speedbump/archive/images/speedbump2002228570801.gif

Cute.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.
gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Author of GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces
Geek Code: tc tm tn- t4-- tg++$ ru ge+ 3i+@ c+
            jt- au pi he+ as+ so-                           



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 10:52:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  8 09:52:26 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <e4e645e4c45c.e4c45ce4e645@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020808093155.009fdec0@mindspring.com>

At 11:08 AM 8/8/02 +0300, you wrote:

> > Don't forget - the outgoing commander has to do an inventory
> > with the new commander, and the new commander gets to sign
> > for the ship and all of the equipment in it.
>
>Anybody know if a _Nimitz_-class CVN has a National Stock Number? ;-)

Since each one is manufactured individually, I doubt it.  But the F-14D 
does.  As does the M1-A1 MBT.  I spent some time helping out in the supply 
room, where I learned how to steal someone blind while staying inside the 
rules.  I also found a NSN number for a nuclear reactor.

>ObTrav:  GT:GF mentions the 3I's equivalent to NSNs; do major warship
>classes have such numbers?

Imperial vessels seem to be much more standardized when compared to the US 
Navy, so perhaps they issued as a unit.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 10:52:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  8 09:52:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D5C@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020808093629.009ed970@mindspring.com>

At 03:11 PM 8/7/02 -0400, you wrote:

>Great story from Vietnam. As usual can't remember the source:
>
>A local village mayor was known to be a VC supporter, but no one could prove
>it or do anything about it.
>One day some American intelligence types, after a firefight, threw some
>recovered VC bodies onto a jeep and drove into the village. They drove up to
>the mayor's house.
>Now, you have to picture this. The VC bodies are in full view of everyone in
>the village.
>As far as I know, the mayor did not speak English, and the Americans did not
>speak Vietnamese.
>The Americans smiled, clapped the horrified mayor on the back, and unloaded
>gifts of food, a radio, bundles of cash, etcetera, and drove off.
>Three guesses on how long the mayor lived after that?

That's a trick sometimes used by the police to turn an informant.  Arrest a 
bunch of people at a crack house.  Tell your target that he's going to be 
let go without charges, right in front of all the other detainees.  The 
target usually panics, and will do anything not to be treated differently.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 11:13:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Aug  8 10:13:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Spam Spam Spam Spam...
References: <11b.147a05c3.2a82e8cc@cs.com> <20020808101200.30a20555.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <3D52A656.4040309@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Jens Rydholm wrote:
> On Wed, 07 Aug 2002 17:19:08 -0400 (EDT)
> Damage169@cs.com wrote:
> 
> 
>>More like, "Groat Musk Perfume would be a nasty thing to suffer a container 
>>breach while in the PC's cargo hold..." Especially in a S-class Scout/Courier.
> 
> 
> Yes, that would be a very nasty problem. Very subtle. How would the PCs notice that the cargo container had been damaged?

Scout 1:"Sven...you smell that??!!"
Scout 2:"Yah, Joe...it smells *nice* in here!"
S1, S2 (simultaneously) "Oh sh*t!!!" <dive for vaccsuits)



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 11:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  8 10:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <20020808172611.81955.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>

>Great story from Vietnam. As usual can't remember the source:
>
>A local village mayor was known to be a VC supporter, but no one 
>could prove it or do anything about it.

That's disinformation at its best.  I've read the story, but I can't
remember where.  Maybe it's in Dispatches by Michael (?) Herr.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 11:35:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  8 10:35:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re: army usage
Message-ID: <20020808173458.40698.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>

>This is true and not contrary to what I said at all. 

It only contradicts your statement that the Taliban was composed
primarily of members of a tribe in southwestern Afghanistan.  As
someone else pointed out, neither of us were precisely correct nor
completely wrong.

>ObTrav: How does the citizens of a world view interference into
their
>local affairs by the Imperium? I guess that it is takes a wide range
>of sentiments, but that most worlds really want to settle their 
>issues wiyhout the IMperium medeling. Even if it means a nuclear
war.

In my Traveller universe, most worlds prefer to do everything
themselves, or in cooperation with their neighbors, without any
Imperial interference or "assistance" -- except when they really need
it, like when a foreign power invades.  Sometimes worlds will seek
Imperial assistance in mediating a conflict to avoid war, but not
always.  This is one of the reasons the Imperium tries to keep
weapons of mass destruction out of the hands of its member states, or
at least to keep such weapons tied to defense of the system from
foreign powers.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 11:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  8 10:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  vilis landgrab
Message-ID: <20020808175404.91566.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com>

>These leads to problems between the Ine Givar factions, since the
>Regina faction is rigourously pansophontist, while the Sword Worlder
>faction are very soft on the question.

Only the Solidariti splinter group is "rigourously pansophontist." 
The Credo Front supports a pansophontist platform, but does not
become distracted by what are currently minor doctrinal issues. 
"When the agents of the oppressors start shooting, your first thought
must be to shoot back, not whether you hold the gun in your right
hand or your left."*

>The Regina faction only rarely engages in terrorism, and prefers to 
>organise non-violently. 

Riiiight.  This must have been written by a Solidariti member; they
are masters of keeping a straight face.

--Subcommander Cosram, Credo Front of the Ine Givar Movement

*Black Book of Quotations of Zid Rachele 2:66

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 12:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bernie McGeehan)
Date: Thu Aug  8 11:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] 100 ton scout ship?
In-Reply-To: <berka_3d4644bb22764@webmail.berka.com>
Message-ID: <20020808184852.12064.qmail@web13403.mail.yahoo.com>

I found this while flipping through the pages of
Space.com....Vilani contact teams in Illinois?
Hmmmmm...
<a href= "http://www.space.com/php/multimedia/imagedisplay/img_display.php?pic=h_black_trihigh_02,0.jpg&cap=Estimated%20to%20be%20600%20feet%20long%20and%20300%20feet%20wide,%20with%20a%20height%20of%2040%20feet,%20the%20Black%20Triangle%20could%20weigh%20as%20much%20as%20100%20tons.%20%20Courtesy%20of%20National%20Institute%20for%20Discovery%20Science%20(NIDS)">http://www.space.com/php/multimedia/imagedisplay/img_display.php?pic=h_black_trihigh_02,0.jpg&cap=Estimated%20to%20be%20600%20feet%20long%20and%20300%20feet%20wide,%20with%20a%20height%20of%2040%20feet,%20the%20Black%20Triangle%20could%20weigh%20as%20much%20as%20100%20tons.%20%20Courtesy%20of%20National%20Institute%20for%20Discovery%20Science%20(NIDS)</a>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 12:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  8 11:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <200208081849.MIR02148@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry says
>I also found a NSN number for a nuclear reactor.

Now all you need is your own jump drive.
________________
It is impossible to travel faster than 
the speed of light and certainly not 
desirable, as ones hat keeps falling 
off...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 13:27:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Thu Aug  8 12:27:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial taxes
In-Reply-To: <20020803223629.15105.10842.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208082116470.9347-100000@ask.diku.dk>

David P. Summers writes:
>At 12:30 AM -0400 8/3/02, hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>>In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head tax" or does it charge
>>an income tax on its citizens for its Imperial Budget requirements?  In
>>short, if the Imperial government taxes 10% of a Gross Planetary Product,
>>then it would in essence be an income tax.  If it charges a flat 500 CR
>>per person on a planet, then it is a head tax.  Which is it?

According to _Striker_, the Imperium charges each world (or in the case
of balkanized worlds, each nation) a percentage of its total military
budget (These budgets, in turn, are based on GWPs, but this may be a
simplification for gaming purposes). It does not say how this sum is
collected. I assume that the Imperium gets a check from each government.

>>And I find it an interesting thought here.  If the Imperium charges say,
>>3% of a planet's gross planetary product for its military taxes - this ta=
x
>>is on top of the local ruler's/government's tax.  How much in the way of
>>taxes can a population take before its economy begins to stagnate?

Again according to _Striker_ total military budgets ranges from 1-15% of
GWP, 1% being after a long period of peace and 15% being when actually at
war.=A0Average for the Imperium is 3%. Real world examples show that
countries can manage 8-9% more or less indefinitely and more than 15% for
a while (although this tends to put a severe strain on the economy).

>My impression is that imperial taxes are very indirect (they collect
>money from the member states.  The only direct taxes are the fees
>they collect at starports?

That seems to be the case. It is unclear how much, if anything, the
Imperium collects for expenses other than military ones (and whether or
not the Scouts come out of the military budget or not). I think it quite
possible that the Emperor's Share of all interstellar companies is enough
to pay for the Imperial bureaucracy.


Hans



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 14:19:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  8 13:19:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Lawyers should look into this...
Message-ID: <200208082017.MIT04892@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I was reading the LA Times, and I thought I was reading Book 
4.

"They envision super soldiers, arriving silently by stealth 
helicopter,"

ok, a grav vehicle full of commandos...

"wearing temperature-controlled suits that can repel chemical 
and biological agents and make an individual nearly invisible 
by suppressing infrared and other telltale signatures, 
including body odor."

ok, combat environment suit with chameleon mod...

"They envision silent guns"

ok, a gauss rifle

"and lightweight, blast-intensive explosives, futuristic 
arsenals of dazzling lasers and high-power microwave and 
acoustic weapons."

hmm...  And your parents may have told you that none of that 
science fiction roleplaying game you and your friends were 
playing in the basement would ever come to pass...
________________
It is impossible to travel faster than 
the speed of light and certainly not 
desirable, as ones hat keeps falling 
off...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 14:23:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Aug  8 13:23:05 2002
Subject: [TML] 100 ton scout ship?
In-Reply-To: <20020808184852.12064.qmail@web13403.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <berka_3d4644bb22764@webmail.berka.com>
 <20020808184852.12064.qmail@web13403.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020808222246.2f21bbe3.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Thu, 08 Aug 2002 11:48:52 -0700 (PDT)
Bernie McGeehan <einreb62@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I found this while flipping through the pages of
> Space.com....Vilani contact teams in Illinois?

Is there any way to find the article to which the picture belongs? The "Return to story" link is history based (and thus doesn't work).

Meanwhile, I played around a bit with the URL. Try this one instead.

http://www.space.com/php/multimedia/imagedisplay/img_display.php?pic=h_black_trihigh_02,0.jpg&cap=All%20your%20base%20are%20belong%20to%20us

Note to self: Don't make web pages that have this bug/feature.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 15:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Thu Aug  8 14:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <02080817101100.00601@linux>

> > 	How many dinky airless rockballs with large populations do the
> > world generation rules permit?
>
> What does that matter?  They obviously don't need trade for survival.
> It's not like they'll starve if you isolate them.
>
>
	I know that they won't starve. Out of curiosity, I decided to work out what 
might happen though. 
My assumptions were : A100999-F  3 gg's     1 belt       hi va na   f5VI
			all 2d6=7 to be average and show possible outcomes for 1d6
			population mod=5

	First I tried Hard Times without imposing any war damage and only cutting 
trade.  It predicted a 33% chance of the Class a starport dropping to b, 
followed by a 2 to 5 point drop in tech level. This is caused presumably by 
the abandonment of the economy by the megacorps and other trade. This would 
cause a big recession forcing the government to increase law level by 3 to 5 
points in order to control rioting, civil unrest, etc. By the fifth year, 
things level out again, but there is a chance that a coup, or revolution 
takes place ( gov changes to feudal technocracy, martial law, or oligarchy).
	Then I tried  Pocket Empires. Everything is fine except that net per capita 
income seems awfully low. If that represents the middle class, then the poor 
will be starving or in the military or on welfare.
	Finally, I tried world tamer's handbook, though not a full sim. 
Food production is not a problem at tech 15, however even at t15, the surface 
area required to grow food is much greater than exists on the surface of the 
rockball without even considering area for housing or industry or materials 
production. IT would take a tech 15 arcology 25000 km^2 just to house 
everyone. As all hydroponics would be underground, there would also be huge 
power requirements just to grow the food. Again, wealth distribution would be 
the deciding factor as to who starved and who ate well.
	So , no, the dinky rockballs don't need outside trade. Yes, it could really 
suck to live on one though. The system must really be bad to force the choice 
of settling the entire population of the earth on a planetoid half the 
diameter of the moon. 
	hmmm. as a rpg setting, it could be fun. endless corridors and caverns 
during a bloody revolution? anyone for a game of doom?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 15:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Kerby)
Date: Thu Aug  8 14:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] I won the lottery!
In-Reply-To: <sd5254a9.055@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
Message-ID: <000901c23f22$46a658e0$44cbb3cf@yourg4lzvxou0c>

Its people like you that cause unrest... or salivating at the mouth in
anticipation of lists...

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Jeff D. Greenly
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 10:23 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] I won the lottery!

And now, from the I can't believe this actually happened to me files...

My SO and I were out shopping and running errands last night after
work. On the way home, she noticed that there were signs for a yard sale
to begin this morning and extend through Saturday. Never ones to pass up
good deals or good junk, we decided that if there was anyone/anything
out there this morning as we were on our way to work, we'd stop and take
a quick look...

Well, the sponsors of this particular sale were setting out their stuff
as we came up this morning, and my eye was immediately drawn to several
boxes of books that they were beginning to unpack. There were a LOT of
old science fiction paperbacks, and I started rummaging through them,
picking out a few that I wanted to buy. Out of the corner of my eye, I
noticed a familiar cover design as a box was opened, one that was black
with a red stripe! I turned to look into the box, and lo! a fairly
complete Classic Traveller collection!!!! The whole box was full of
LBB's, box sets, box games, and a copy of 5FW! I asked why these were
being sold, and the lady explained that her son was grown and in the
service and had said that he didn't want any of this stuff any more. I
asked her what she would take for the whole box, and she looked at me
with surprise, then said, "Well, how about 20 bucks?" 

As soon as I've done an inventory, I'll post a list of what's available
to sell and trade...


Jeff

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 15:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thing)
Date: Thu Aug  8 14:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] 100 ton scout ship?
References: <berka_3d4644bb22764@webmail.berka.com><20020808184852.12064.qmail@web13403.mail.yahoo.com> <20020808222246.2f21bbe3.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <001d01c23f23$20c6cd20$0100a8c0@pentacle>

On Thursday, August 08, 2002 1:22 PM
Jens Rydholm said,

> Is there any way to find the article to which the picture belongs? The
"Return to story" link is history based (and thus doesn't work).
>
> Meanwhile, I played around a bit with the URL. Try this one instead.
>
>
http://www.space.com/php/multimedia/imagedisplay/img_display.php?pic=h_black
_trihigh_02,0.jpg&cap=All%20your%20base%20are%20belong%20to20us

I believe this is the article in question.

http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/black_triangle_020805.htm
l

G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
Grand Master of the Electron Flow
Minion to SheChemist and GothBunny
==========================
"I have taken all knowledge to be my province." -Francis Bacon


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 15:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Aug  8 14:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  vilis landgrab
References: <20020808190005.17449.17738.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c23f25$6fcf6d80$f1b18b90@computer>

> From: "Glenn M. Goffin" 
> --Subcommander Cosram, Credo Front of the Ine Givar Movement

Splitters!

On behalf of the Regina Regional Committee of the Ine Givar (Solidariti)

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 15:45:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Aug  8 14:45:27 2002
Subject: [TML] How many Xboats...
In-Reply-To: <200208081636.MIN00707@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208081636.MIN00707@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020809074313.A2995@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:

> If the boats leave on the hour (assuming a 24 hour clock), and the
> planet has a route to two other systems, then there are at least 48
> x-boats (there should be spares, to allow for maintenance rotation).

Given that the cycle time for any given x-boat is no less than two
weeks, if they depart on the hour to two other systems then you'll
need about 700 of them.


> I'm not sure if some systems would want to have an x-boat on the
> half-hour, or more often.

How many systems could *afford* an x-boat on the half-hour?  Would it
be worth the cost?  I doubt it.

X-boats that depart on the half-hour don't arrive on the half-hour.
Sending them more often than half a day or so starts to run into the
uncertainty of +-16 hours in the duration of each jump.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 15:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  8 14:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How many Xboats...
Message-ID: <200208082149.MIX01956@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>X-boats that depart on the half-hour don't arrive on the 
>half-hour.
>Sending them more often than half a day or so starts to run 
>into the uncertainty of +-16 hours in the duration of each 
>jump.

I believe that at a minimum, people would want at least a 
daily run.
________________
It is impossible to travel faster than 
the speed of light and certainly not 
desirable, as ones hat keeps falling 
off...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 15:54:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Aug  8 14:54:04 2002
Subject: [TML] animals
Message-ID: <Springmail.0994.1028843628.0.04003000@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>

Flykiller@aol.com posted:
> 
> Hummingbee
<snip> 
> Flying Cougar

Try the Singapore native snake. A story about it was posted today at:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/DailyNews/snake020807.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 16:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Aug  8 15:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] 100 ton scout ship?
References: <berka_3d4644bb22764@webmail.berka.com><20020808184852.12064.qmail@web13403.mail.yahoo.com> <20020808222246.2f21bbe3.jenry023@student.liu.se> <001d01c23f23$20c6cd20$0100a8c0@pentacle>
Message-ID: <3D52EBE3.1030401@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Thing wrote:

 > 
http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/black_triangle_020805.htm
 >  l

Just a quick email note. If you enclose your url's in <> brackets, most
capable email clients will recognize and assemble even multiline url's
properly.

http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/black_triangle_020805.htm
l

Will most likely give a 404 error, but

<http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/black_triangle_020805.html>

usually will work, even if it's broken over two lines

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 16:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 15:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT Help Needed
Message-ID: <7f.2a5ba891.2a844764@aol.com>

I need the help of the list with my MSc.

I am studying the Public Understanding of Science (PUS) and have decided to 
harness the Power Of The Internet(tm) to investigate peoples knowledge and 
attitudes about cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) and "do not resuscitate" 
DNAR orders.

Anyone who would like to help can do so by filling in an online survey and by 
letting others know the URL and what I'm after. More information and access 
to the questionnaire can be found at:

http://members.aol.com/researchfiend/index.html

Thanks in advance to all those who agree to help.  

Charles

I addressed some cheerful chit-chat at the man opposite but was rewarded with 
grunt. I tried the man next to me but he just looked at the gentleman I had 
tried first and said "Do you know what he's talking about?" At this point I 
realised I was getting out my depth but the Dean stepped in and saved me, "Oh 
don't worry about it" he said, "They're mathematicians - we never talk to 
them."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 16:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Aug  8 15:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <02080817101100.00601@linux>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux>
Message-ID: <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>

richard honeycutt wrote:
> My assumptions were : A100999-F  3 gg's     1 belt       hi va na   f5VI
[...]
> 	First I tried Hard Times without imposing any war damage and only cutting 
> trade.  It predicted a 33% chance of the Class a starport dropping to b, 
> followed by a 2 to 5 point drop in tech level. This is caused presumably by 
> the abandonment of the economy by the megacorps and other trade.

Good lord!  That seems way out of whack with the actual level of trade
the planet has according to the Far Trader rules.  I get a total
external trade level of about 300 GCr/year, and average GWP of 60 TCr
per year.

Would the loss of trade worth 0.5% of their economy really have that
drastic an effect within a year or two?  I think most people wouldn't
even notice.  I can understand that the starport might drop to B
through disuse, though probably only if it doesn't have any
intrasystem traffic (that might be why a 33% chance).

A massive drop in tech level seems *exceedingly* unlikely though.  In
trade volume terms, it would be like the Phillipines "abandoning" the
economy of the rest of the world, causing the rest of the world to
experience a massive economic slump, rioting, civil unrest, and
reversion to pre-WWI technology.  No offense to inhabitants of the
Phillipines, but I don't think they prop up the rest of the world.

Likewise, I don't think the minute volume of trade props up the
high-pop worlds in Traveller.


> Food production is not a problem at tech 15, however even at t15,
> the surface area required to grow food is much greater than exists
> on the surface of the rockball

That's broken.  An average hectare per person assigned to food
production is ample even with current technology and without trying
hard.  Tech level 15 should be able to do *much* better.


> without even considering area for housing or industry or materials
> production. IT would take a tech 15 arcology 25000 km^2 just to
> house everyone.

Given that the rockball has a surface area of more than 30000000 km^2,
that's not a concern.


> As all hydroponics would be underground, there would also be huge
> power requirements just to grow the food.

That's not a problem, even if you do decide to abandon the surface.
Traveller fusion power is *really* cheap.  A megawatt would cost no
more than Cr10/week.  It would certainly take much less power than a
megawatt per person to grow food.

In fact, it takes less than a hundred kilowatts per person at current
tech without any concern for energy efficiency.  Yes, that's including
light input.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 16:35:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Aug  8 15:35:05 2002
Subject: [TML] How many Xboats...
In-Reply-To: <200208082149.MIX01956@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208082149.MIX01956@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020809083445.C2995@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> I believe that at a minimum, people would want at least a daily run.

I agree -- half a day between X-boats would be about right, I think.
So what if many of them arrive in the wrong order? :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 16:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Aug  8 15:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How many Xboats...
In-Reply-To: <200208082149.MIX01956@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D539CBE.10878.42BDF9@localhost>

On 8 Aug 2002 at 17:49, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Timothy Little says
> >X-boats that depart on the half-hour don't arrive on the 
> >half-hour.
> >Sending them more often than half a day or so starts to run 
> >into the uncertainty of +-16 hours in the duration of each 
> >jump.
> 
> I believe that at a minimum, people would want at least a 
> daily run.

I've always assumed a daily run down each branch IMTU, plus assorted 
special runs as required.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 16:50:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  8 15:50:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux>
 <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <02080817101100.00601@linux>
 <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <m3sn1p7yq7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:
> 
> That's broken.  An average hectare per person assigned to food
> production is ample even with current technology and without trying
> hard.  Tech level 15 should be able to do *much* better.

You can feed a man on 2 1/2 acres?  What would you be planting?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I've resigned myself to seeing everything I consider meritorious slowly
destroyed by the forces of corruption, greed and stupidity, but it's
really adding insult to injury that they can't even maintain a facade of
competence.                                                --Tim Mefford

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 17:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Aug  8 16:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3D53003A.1070102@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Timothy Little wrote:
> richard honeycutt wrote:
> 
>>My assumptions were : A100999-F  3 gg's     1 belt       hi va na   f5VI
> 
> [...]
> 
>>	First I tried Hard Times without imposing any war damage and only cutting 
>>trade.  It predicted a 33% chance of the Class a starport dropping to b, 
>>followed by a 2 to 5 point drop in tech level. This is caused presumably by 
>>the abandonment of the economy by the megacorps and other trade.
> 
> 
> Good lord!  That seems way out of whack with the actual level of trade
> the planet has according to the Far Trader rules.  I get a total
> external trade level of about 300 GCr/year, and average GWP of 60 TCr
> per year.

This is because all of the above econmomic models (Hard Times, GT:FT, 
WBH, WTH) are all a) mutually incompatible, and b) subject to widely 
varying assumptions.

You can't compare these, and which model is correct depends on which 
rule set you use.

In general econometric analysis of the OTU is going to be pretty much 
hopeless, imo, because the gaps in data are so much larger than the data.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 18:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Thu Aug  8 17:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020806113510.45efd91c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEOGEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>IMHO, the model for Arbellatra is Augustus--not Julius--Caesar. That is,
she
>>was more a illiant politician than a brilliant general. I base this on a
few
>>factors:
>
>Good model.  I was thinking a bit of Hitler, personally.  Same kind of
>personal magnetism.
>
Charisma in a politician  to this extent is not entirely unknown across the
political spectrum. Julius Caesar certainly had it, as did Alexander the
Great, as well as possibly Franklin Roosevelt and Hitler.

>>1) She essentially lost the 2FW but still managed to declare victory and
>>mobilize the Marches behind her. (Remember, the Imperium ceded territory
to
>>the Zhodani after the war, and Library Data mentions that the final
>>engagement resulted in a "stalemate" between the two sides. She basically
>>one the war the same way the U.S. "won" the War of 1812--by not losing as
>>badly as expected.)
>
>This might have come from misunderstanding Zhodani war goals.  Arbellatra
>probably knew from the start that the Zhodani wanted to remove the Imperium
>from Zhodani territory, not destroy the Imperium.  But playing up the image
>of the Zho's as barbarians helped her cause.  A draw was as good as a
>victory to her.

I suspect that she did know more about the Zhodani than her contemporaries.
The Zhos have never been expansionist and have only attempted to restrain
the Imperium's expansionistic tendencies.

<snip>
>
>>3) Her masterly stroke of refusing the crown is remarkably similar to
>>Augustus' own "retirement" from government--while in truth retaining a
firm
>>grip on the reins of power. (The people of Rome demanded at one point that
>>he publish a list of candidates he favored, so they would know who to vote
>>for--not from coercion, but from a devotion to Augustus.)
>
>It is her that I am of two minds..  I sort of like the idea that she
>honestly meant to find a surviving Zhunastu heir; only taking the throne
>when that proved impossible.
>

I  also like the idea that she was most concerned with the Imperium and
honestly tried to find an heir.

>>My interpretation may also explain her meteoric rise to high command at
such
>>a young age--perhaps her title of Grand Admiral of the Marches was a
>>ceremonial one, or rank was determined by noble standing to a much greater
>>degree in the antebellum Imperium. (Indeed, perhaps Arbellatra reformed
the
>>military to make it more egalitarian, not only to prevent a rival from
>>rising in a fashion like her own, but to insure loyalty to the Emperor and
>>the Imperium and not the individual commander, as seems to be the case
with
>>Plankwell and the other Emperors of the Flag.)
>
>"Nothing succeeds like success" they say.  I've always sensed that along
>with being politically brilliant, she was possibly the greatest strategic
>and tactical mind the Imperium ever saw.  She was only 28 when the war
>broke out, according to canon.  I'd prefer to push her date of birth back
>to 567, making her 48 at the beginning of the war.  This at least gives her
>the age to have had a fairly long career and been at least an experienced
>Captain or junior Admiral.  This would, IMHO, make her seizure of the
>fleets far more acceptable.  No one is going to listen to a pup of a Ltd.
>Commander.
>
Alexander the great succeeded to the thrown at the age of twenty. By the
time he was 32 he controlled nearly the entire known world, at least as
known to him. In a society where a child's future position of command is
known at a very early age military training would start at a very young age.
I see her as reading Sun Tsu by age nine and Machiavelli by age twelve. If
she was a prodigy she could have been an ensign by age 18 or 20. If she was
successful in actual combat missions, against pirates or corsairs she could
have risen rapidly, or perhaps she outfitted her own ship and was actually a
"privateer noble" captain before the war. Francis Drake was a ships captain
at the age of twenty, and already a legendary privateer at that time.

The fact is we don't know how the Imperial fleet was made up at that time.
CT's character generation rules seem to indicate that the IN during the
1100's follows modern (20th century) wet Navy practices, with Naval
Academies, OCS, etc. This doesn't really say anything about how the Imperial
Navy operated four hundred years earlier.

The U.S. Naval Academy (the original one at Philadelphia not the one at
Annapolis) was founded because young officers (who were trained aboard ship
as midshipmen as described in the Hornblower novels) rebelled and Navy
leaders wanted them to have a more formal education, which included more
stringent discipline in a more controlled setting.

If officers of Arbellatra's time were trained in the fleet, instead of on
planet at an academy, then she could have been an officer while still in her
teens. If ships and fleets were personally raised by nobles, then if she
showed herself competent or her family had enough money she could very well
have been a captain while still in her twenties. Such a fleet would be more
loyal to the people who raised it that to the Imperium, or at least to the
Emperor.

I like her young age. It fits in well with a more age of sail feel for the
setting during this time. A closer tie between a fleet's admiral's and
officers and the men and women manning the ships would result if all the
fleets were colonial in nature. It explains why Plankwell's fleet followed
him to capital, without a serious dissenting voice. And why the other fleets
would follow their leaders without seriously protesting in the name of the
Emperor.

I could really get into this period. I find it much more interesting than
the Interstellar War period. (Sorry Loren.)



Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 18:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  8 17:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How many Xboats...
Message-ID: <200208090022.MJB03321@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>So what if many of them arrive in the wrong order? :)

Your email can arrive in the wrong order, theoretically.  But 
everything has a timestamp specifying the incept of the 
message.
________________
It is impossible to travel faster than 
the speed of light and certainly not 
desirable, as ones hat keeps falling 
off...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 18:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  8 17:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <200208090025.MJB03477@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Robert Uhl asks
>You can feed a man on 2 1/2 acres?  What would you be 
>planting?

Soylent green.
________________
It is impossible to travel faster than 
the speed of light and certainly not 
desirable, as ones hat keeps falling 
off...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 19:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 18:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] jenry023@student.liu.se
Message-ID: <a.2330244c.2a8474ff@aol.com>

 >I am working on creating a Traveller campaign in which your adventure would 
fit  >nicely, though... will run it as soon as one of the other campaigns 
end...

Please let me know how it turns out.  Thanks.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 19:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Aug  8 18:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <m3sn1p7yq7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
 <02080313391901.00601@linux>
 <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <02080817101100.00601@linux>
 <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020808214249.025e5ec8@192.168.0.1>

At 04:49 PM 8/8/2002 -0600, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
>Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:
> >
> > That's broken.  An average hectare per person assigned to food
> > production is ample even with current technology and without trying
> > hard.  Tech level 15 should be able to do *much* better.
>
>You can feed a man on 2 1/2 acres?  What would you be planting?

Well, first off, as Bruce Johnson said, all the various version are mostly 
incompatible with each other.

Second, I keep see folks say stuff like "well, at TL 15 this isn't a 
problem".  All of the Imperium is not running at TL 15.
You have TL 12 & TL 11 or lower rockballs out there.  Sure they can import 
cool high tech stuff, but how long can a TL 9 rockball support TL 15 
equipment on their own?

As to what they grow to get that yield, there are things that will do it, 
like the blue green algae I mentioned before.
That makes a boring diet though. It's a good staple, but for long term 
usage, you're gonna want to have variety.
If it's too expensive to import, then you have to grow it locally.  Ya, 
beef is great stuff, but it takes a lot of grain to feed a cow, and then 
space for the cow.

Space is big, even if you just limit it to Imperial Space, it's big.
You will probably find a wide range of solutions.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 19:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Thu Aug  8 18:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Do I have to Yahoo! ?
Message-ID: <000c01c23f32$9edea020$c9c4d63f@customer>

Could someone tell me if it is necessary to follow these instructions to
subscribe to The JTAS

John Scarlett

Hello jlscarlett@earthlink.net,

We have received your request to join the JTAS
group hosted by Yahoo! Groups, a free, easy-to-use community service.

This request will expire in 21 days.

TO BECOME A MEMBER OF THE GROUP:

1) Go to the Yahoo! Groups site by clicking on this link:


http://groups.yahoo.com/i?i=abztGutj6OteVF9ZVJaJNO_whCU&e=jlscarlett%40earth
link%2Enet

  (If clicking doesn't work, "Cut" and "Paste" the line above into your
   Web browser's address bar.)

-OR-

2) REPLY to this email by clicking "Reply" and then "Send"
   in your email program

If you did not request, or do not want, a membership in the
JTAS group, please accept our apologies
and ignore this message.

Regards,

Yahoo! Groups Customer Care

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 19:57:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Thu Aug  8 18:57:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Food requirements for people
In-Reply-To: <200208090025.MJB03477@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020808220125.0295d6b0@mail.buffnet.net>

For what it is worth - in medieval times, a family of 5, 2 adults and 3 
children, could survive on the produce of 15 acres per year.  This works 
out to 3 acres on average per person.  Keep in mind as well, that the 15 
acres of land no only supported the 5 people, but produced enough surplus 
that for every 10 peasant families working the land, 1 city family was 
supported.  Overall, I'm guessing that each 3 acres of land provided enough 
support for 1.1 people on average.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 20:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Thu Aug  8 19:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020806114206.364f75c8@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNIEOHEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>The one thing I can't stand is the ship designs. I loath the Caen. Among
>>other problems: Where are the navy ratings bunked? They certainly wouldn't
>>be with the Marines, not since the rest of canon says that they should be
>>living in staterooms, which I would suppose are separate from the
officer's
>>staterooms. I could go on and on about the failings of the design, but I
>>don't want to rant.
>
>I have problems with the Caen deckplans myself.  It was designed as a very
>"close" ship, and I did put in that the rest of the Navy thinks the crews
>that work the Caens are oddballs.  If you have an improved design, I'd love
>to see it.
>--
>
>Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com

Here's a slightly revised Caen design, with a nod to Heinlein:

1,200-ton Roger Young -class Dropship, Davy Crockett (TL12)
Crew: 30 Total. 20 Command and Control, 1 Maneuver Drive, 1 Jump Drive, 2
Medical, 4 Nuclear Damper Operators, 1 Weapon Bay Gunners, 2 Turret Gunners.
Hull: 1,200-ton USL, Medium Frame, Standard Materials, Bonded Superdense
(Expensive) Armored Hull (DR 2,000, Thermal Super-conducting Armor,
Psi-Shielded, Instant Chameleon, LCD Skin), Standard Compartmentalization.
Control Areas: Command Bridge (Hardened, Complexity 10), Military
Information Center (Hardened, Complexity 10).
Communicator Range (mi)	Radio	Maser	Laser	Meson
Command Bridge	50,000,000	0	100,000,000	200,000

Sensors Range/Rating (mi)	Passive	Active	Radscanner
Command Bridge	100,000/41	200,000/43	30,000/38
Engineering: Engineering, 60 Jump Drive, 170 Maneuver Drive (3.03 / 3.86 Gs,
17,000 stons thrust), 240 Fuel Tank, 2 Fuel Processor (15 hours to refine ),
3 Utility.
Accommodations: 76 4 Person Bunkroom, 10 Stateroom, 2 Sickbay (6 Patients),
Operating Theater (2 Patients), 2 Low Berth (8 Cryoberths), 20 Drop Capsule
Rack (320 Users), 2 Drop Capsule Launcher, 16 Battle Dress Morgue (320
Users), 3 Shooting Range (6 Users), 3 Gymnasium (12 Users), Military
Holoventure.
Armaments: Nuclear Damper (10 mi), 1 Lg Internal Bay Battery of 1 (Lg Lt
Missile Bay [8200], Lg Lt Missile Bay Load [x8200]), 2 Turret Batteries of 1
each (DR 1,000, 3x405 Mj Std Laser[RoF Bonus +1]).
Weapon Name	Qty	Type	Acc	SS	Dmg	RoF	1/2 Rng	Max
Lg Lt Missile Bay [8200]	1					(+0)		10,000,000/1000
405 Mj Std Laser	6	Imp	33	30	5dx100(2)	1/60 (+7)	26000/3	78100/8

Missiles/Probes	Qty	DR	G-Rds	Exp Dmg	KK-Dmg	Size	AMod	PMod
Lg Lt Missile Bay Load [x8200]	1	120	10G-30	6dx80(10)	6dx100(5)	0	-8	-8
Stores: 55 Vehicle Bay (55 dtons for small craft available).
Statistics: DMass 4,165.47 stons, EMass 4,405.47 stons, LMass 5,609.17
stons, Base Cost MCr404.64, Load Cost MCr172.28, Total Cost MCr576.92, HP
75,000, Damage Threshold 7,500, Size Mod +10, HT 12, 96.6 Man-Hours/day
Maintenance.
Space Performance: Jump-4, sAcc 3.03/3.03/3.86/4.08 Gs.
Air Performance: aSpeed 600 mph, Skimming aSpeed 11,692 mph, aLift 17,000
stons.
Sample Times : Orbit 0.11 Hrs, Escape Velocity 0.16 Hrs, 100D 3.67 Hrs,
Earth-Mars 62.97 Hrs.
Options
All times are Earth Std, Full Load.
100D and Earth-Mars assume mid-point turnover.
Printed with GMV Version 2.32.01 on 08/08/2002 9:33:24 PM
Copyright (c) 2002 by I.T. Carlino

I reduced the armor to 2000 and the speed to 3 G, fully loaded. This thing
isn't going to be fighting in the line of battle.  This speed should be
adequate. It's still almost as fast as a Keith Transport, and faster than a
Nakerkh lander. This let me reduce the M-drives enough to replace the bunk
rooms with 4 person staterooms. (I hope I got them right. I doubled the cost
and weight of a two man stateroom, so I probably over compensated.)

The write up says that the Imperium normally loads out bunkrooms with 4
person per stateroom. It strikes me that this kind of Dropship will
typically be on patrol with Marines ready to deploy. So the four person per
room makes sense to me. I hope Starships has an official 4 person stateroom
module. I certainly pushed it hard enough during the playtest. I included 10
Staterooms for officers. Four are for ships officers and the other six for
Marine Officers

Of the 20 Command and Control personnel half should be Marines in the
Military Information Center, which I would suppose is the same as the Caen's
Tactical Command Center.

Crew will consist of Captain, Pilot, Navigator, Chief Engineer, Doctor, as
well as more engineers than indicated above. Probably at least 4 more. I
would expect 6 ship officers sharing 3 staterooms with the captain have a
stateroom to herself. The troop commander will probably have a private
stateroom also. With the rest being shared by the rest of the Marine
Officers.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 20:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 19:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Do I have to Yahoo! ?
Message-ID: <177.cae8ad7.2a847ccf@aol.com>

--part1_177.cae8ad7.2a847ccf_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> Could someone tell me if it is necessary to follow these instructions to
> subscribe to The JTAS.

Hmmm.

The JTAS group on Yahoo! is mostly just for announcements of new
content in the real Journal of the Traveller's Aid Society. I've never seen
it used for anything else.

If you want to subscribe to JTAS itself - the actual webzine currently
run by Steve Jackson Games - you can go to http://jtas.sjgames.com/ .
There are samples of content that you can look at before deciding
whether you want to subscribe or not, and I believe you can actually
subscribe using a link from that page.

Enjoy.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

--part1_177.cae8ad7.2a847ccf_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt; Could someone tell me if it is necessary to follow these instructions to
<BR>&gt; subscribe to The JTAS.
<BR>
<BR>Hmmm.
<BR>
<BR>The JTAS group on Yahoo! is mostly just for announcements of new
<BR>content in the real Journal of the Traveller's Aid Society. I've never seen
<BR>it used for anything else.
<BR>
<BR>If you want to subscribe to JTAS itself - the actual webzine currently
<BR>run by Steve Jackson Games - you can go to http://jtas.sjgames.com/ .
<BR>There are samples of content that you can look at before deciding
<BR>whether you want to subscribe or not, and I believe you can actually
<BR>subscribe using a link from that page.
<BR>
<BR>Enjoy.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_177.cae8ad7.2a847ccf_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 20:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  8 19:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Stripmime
Message-ID: <B97873B1.69033%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Someone on the TML kindly modified Stripmime to allow messages without a
content type to get posted on the list (A fix for Leonard).  If that person
still has a copy, could they please contact me.  I've lost the original tha=
t
you sent me.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 20:20:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  8 19:20:10 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Lawyers should look into this...
Message-ID: <20020809021802.34319.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com>

>Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 16:17:51 -0400
>
>"They envision silent guns"
>
>ok, a gauss rifle

Where did you get your silent gauss rifle?  The bullets in mine
always make a boom as they break the sound barrier.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 20:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Thu Aug  8 19:24:03 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <001a01c23f4b$b6502d00$7400a8c0@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Timothy Little" <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 11:33 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE


> richard honeycutt wrote:

> > As all hydroponics would be underground, there would also be huge
> > power requirements just to grow the food.
>
> That's not a problem, even if you do decide to abandon the surface.
> Traveller fusion power is *really* cheap.  A megawatt would cost no
> more than Cr10/week.  It would certainly take much less power than a
> megawatt per person to grow food.
>
> In fact, it takes less than a hundred kilowatts per person at current
> tech without any concern for energy efficiency.  Yes, that's including
> light input.

All fine and dandy. Basically your position is that due to the ready
availability of cheap fusion power and the relatively small volume of
interstellar trade, an isolated system is still essentially self-sufficient
in most circumstances. Fair enough.

However, the original post on this 'Failed World' topic was regarding their
prevalence in TNE. Battle Damage to infrastructure during Hard Times would
certainly cause short term (i.e. a few years) stress on a systems self
sufficiency. Parts designed with hundred or thousand year lifetimes (i.e.
major structural elements of Domed Cities etc) might require specialist
technology not available locally. The lack of external trade would hinder
efforts to obtain this technology (or replacement parts), which would not be
apparent in regular trading figures. Then Virus hits and suddenly your cheap
ubiquitous fusion reactors are... well... 'not operating to nominal
specification' probably sums it up best... neither is your life support.

If your planet is not capable of sustaining life without TL9+ tech (maybe
even as low as TL5+. Most airless rockballs won't have handy reserves of
fossil fuels...) then you are in trouble. And the numerous deaths that arise
are likely to take out the people most capable of repairing or redirecting
technology early on, as they will likely be the first to respond to the
numerous extremely hazardous emergencies that arise, with often fatal
consequences.

So, already stressed LS and Power supplies become actively hostile and
malignant. Help will not be coming from outside (any ship arriving is likely
to make a very abnormal re-entry... 'death-diving' into cities etc) and no
chance to escape off-planet either, unless you want to risk plunging back to
the ground in a Terminal fashion of having a very close encounter with
either the local star or vacuum. Rioting, looting, and hysteria will do even
more damage...

High TL is a wonderful thing for supporting billions of people in comfort on
otherwise inhospitable environments... but when your high TL *is* the
inhospitable environment you need to get as far away from it as possible.
And a billion shopworkers and accountants don't make the best farmers...
especially when your harvesting machinery is trying to eat you... witness
the end of Dulinor...

Matt






From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 20:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Burns)
Date: Thu Aug  8 19:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] 100 ton scout ship?
Message-ID: <20020809023547.29492.qmail@web10605.mail.yahoo.com>

On Thu, 08 Aug 2002 11:48:52 -0700 (PDT)
Bernie McGeehan wrote:


> I found this while flipping through the pages of
> Space.com....Vilani contact teams in Illinois?

"Well judging from the dimensions and estimated weight
I believe it is in fact the padded shipping container
for one Imperial Type S Scout/Courier. This just goes
to prove my suspicion that all UFO sightings and
contacts are with extraterrestial waste management
units. The requisite occasional abduction and testing
is to determine if we can finally be classified as a
hazardous waste sight so they can start dumping the
really nasty stuff. Watch the skies! The junk is out
there!" :)

On Thu, 8 Aug 2002 22:22:46 +0200
Jens Rydholm wrote:

Meanwhile, I played around a bit with the URL. Try
this one instead.

http://www.space.com/php/multimedia/imagedisplay/img_display.php?pic=h_black_trihigh_02,0.jpg&cap=All%20your%20base%20are%20belong%20to%20us

Note to self: Don't make web pages that have this
bug/feature.

"LOL That is just too funny! I suppose the nice thing
to do would be to tell them ;) perhaps in a creative
and fun way ;) like an anonymous e-mail with a "link"
to their article." :)

Dan "far-trader" Burns

still looking for 'the' definitive .sig file




______________________________________________________________________ 
Post your ad for free now! http://personals.yahoo.ca

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 20:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  8 19:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Lawyers should look into this...
Message-ID: <200208090248.MJH00974@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Glenn M. Goffin" says
>Where did you get your silent gauss rifle?  The bullets in 
>mine always make a boom as they break the sound barrier.

Actually, I've fired quite a few rifle rounds with a 
suppressor - the crack is noticeable - but depending on where 
you are downrange, it may be impossible to localize the 
source of the firing.  The crack is heard as the round passes 
you by - if the round misses far to the right of you, you 
will hear the sound to your right, even if the shooter is 
nowhere to the right.  

More of a snapping sound in most cases - a light cracking.  
For people not familiar with the sound at all, it may or may 
not be identified as gunfire.

I would be that the gauss rifle would sound like this, except 
that the sound from the firing point would be non-existent.
________________
It is impossible to travel faster than 
the speed of light and certainly not 
desirable, as ones hat keeps falling 
off...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 21:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu Aug  8 20:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] 100 ton scout ship?
In-Reply-To: <3D52EBE3.1030401@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020809030206.EC91C2793F@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/08/02 at 03:08 PM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
said:

>Thing wrote:

> > 
>http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/black_triangle_020805.htm
> >  l

>Just a quick email note. If you enclose your url's in <> brackets,
>most capable email clients will recognize and assemble even multiline
>url's properly.

>http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/black_triangle_020805.htm
>l

>Will most likely give a 404 error, but

><http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/black_triangle_020805.html>

>usually will work, even if it's broken over two lines

Usually, perhaps, but not always. Mine doesn't.

Eris

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 21:05:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Thu Aug  8 20:05:30 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <20020806203758.D28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEOIEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

Terry Carlino wrote:
>
>> Part of the point would be to force ships attempting to traverse the
>> area to slow down, use sensors and weapons to clear the mine
>> field. This alone would make them detectable to opposing craft.
>
>I've not found detection of enemy craft to be much of a problem in my
>test-bed runs.  Usually the side with mines controls the system, sees
>the jump flash of any intruder, and can track everything they
>subsequently do.
>
>Maybe I'm just lacking battle experience against other people.  Is
>avoiding detection by the defender a possibility in most people's
>scenarios?
>
>
>- Tim

I guess a lot depends on the tactical conditions. If the system is only
moderately inhabited, with a small defense force an attacker may try a close
in jump and an immediate engagement with the enemy, especially if the
attacking fleet has battle riders and can synchronize their jumps (so that
all ship arrive at effectively the same time.) They may try to overwhelm the
defender.

If jumps cannot be synchronized then an attacking fleet is going to want to
come in far outside the 100 D limit where there is not likely to be a
defending fleet.

In the first case the defenders will see the jump flash, and probably be
able to follow the attackers from then on, especially if the have many
enhanced sensor stations spread throughout near space. In the second case
they will see the flash and know something's coming, but it still might take
days for the attacker's units to form up and weeks for them to actually
attack. How long can your forces stay on high alert before they start to
lose their edge?  Especially when there are dozens of flashes every day for
a week.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 21:12:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  8 20:12:10 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Lawyers should look into this...
In-Reply-To: <20020809021802.34319.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020808200720.009fabd0@mindspring.com>

At 07:18 PM 8/8/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 16:17:51 -0400
> >
> >"They envision silent guns"
> >
> >ok, a gauss rifle
>
>Where did you get your silent gauss rifle?  The bullets in mine
>always make a boom as they break the sound barrier.

Most of the sound associated with weapons fire is the sound of the powder 
going off.  The crack of the bullet is negligible.  For example, a silenced 
.22LR is nearly silent in operation.

A 4mm gauss round would make a high pitched *crack* audible only to those 
near the flight path.


-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Some people have told me they don't think a fat penguin
really embodies the grace of Linux, which just tells me
they have never seen an angry penguin charging at them
in excess of 100 mph. They'd be a lot more careful about
what they say if they had. - Linus Torvalds




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 21:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  8 20:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEOGEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEOGEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <m3k7n0d7ru.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Terry Carlino" <carlino@cox.net> writes:
>
> Alexander the great succeeded to the thrown at the age of twenty.  By
> the time he was 32 he controlled nearly the entire known world, at
> least as known to him. 

> I see her as reading Sun Tsu by age nine and Machiavelli by age
> twelve.  If she were a prodigy she could have been an ensign by age
> 18 or 20.  Francis Drake was a ships captain at the age of twenty,
> and already a legendary privateer at that time.

> The U.S. Naval Academy (the original one at Philadelphia not the one
> at Annapolis) was founded because young officers (who were trained
> aboard ship as midshipmen as described in the Hornblower novels)
> rebelled and Navy leaders wanted them to have a more formal
> education, which included more stringent discipline in a more
> controlled setting.

> If officers of Arbellatra's time were trained in the fleet, instead
> of on planet at an academy, then she could have been an officer
> while still in her teens.  If ships and fleets were personally
> raised by nobles, then if she showed herself competent or her family
> had enough money she could very well have been a captain while still
> in her twenties.  Such a fleet would be more loyal to the people who
> raised it than to the Imperium, or at least to the Emperor.

> I like her young age.  It fits in well with a more age of sail feel
> for the setting during this time.

_Exactly_.  Selections quoted for reiterative effect.  You've hit it
in a nutshell.

As a matter of fact, I am unconvinced that the modern
`generalist-to-18' model is long for this world.  I think that as
technology &c. progress further and further the great minds (as
opposed to the great masses) will more and more be schooled in their
subjects from the earliest age.  Particle physics at 4, advanced
quantum physics at 6, <whatever-replaces-it> at 10, and so on until
one has absorbed the entire history, progression and founding of one's
field.  It's rapidly becoming apparent that four years of college are
not enough; master's or doctoral work is necessary to truly _grok_ a
subject (and I write this as one without a master's or a doctorate).

The only workable solution, given that children of an early age are
not properly testable, is a system of like-father-like-son.  Which,
fortunately enough, ties into mankind's proclivities enough that it'll
probably work out nicely enough.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
America may be unique in being a country which has leapt from barbarism
to decadence without touching civilisation.               --John O'Hara

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 22:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Aug  8 21:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] getting rid of a body (was Re: Yes PM)
In-Reply-To: <200208050251.MBX00823@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20808.205731.7y1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson says
> <snip the drawbacks of the various ways>
> I still think my method of lime, sulfur, and water works 
> rather well - I remember the demonstration we received with a 
> pig carcass - the bones and teeth were gone after a week 
> underground with the mixture.
>
> If you're lucky, and you work near a steel mill, there are 
> tanks where they recycle the sulfuric acid - they keep it at 
> about 18 M.  Drop someone in that (watch the splash) and 
> there won't be anything left.  The recycling process will 
> take care of the impurities.

Actually, thee are body parts (fats and things like gallstones) that
can survive that. So can *fillings*.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 03:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 02:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <m3sn1p7yq7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <m3sn1p7yq7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020809190630.A3949@freeman.little-possums.net>

Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> You can feed a man on 2 1/2 acres?  What would you be planting?

That's not quite the statement I made, since I was talking more like
100 farms of 100 hectares feeding ten thousand.  Your question implies
a single farm feeding one person who has to look after it all
themselves with small-scale tools.

With that qualification in mind, just about anything.  Each person
needs to eat about 0.3 tonnes per year of a balanced diet.


A potato crop of 30-40 tonnes per hectare is normal.  Cereal crops
tend to yield 3-5 tonnes per hectare.  Legumes typically yield 2-3
tonnes of edible produce per hectare.  Apples often yield 30 tonnes
per hectare.

Grain-fed meat animals typically eat about 15-20 times their dressed
carcass mass during growth, so about 0.2 tonnes per hectare including
both crops and feedlot space.  Farmed fish seem to do better, at about
3-5 times their mass of fillets in feed, for about 1 edible tonne per
year inclusive of feed.


You could devote 30% of the crop capacity to feed meat animals, 15% to
dairy animals and egg-laying chickens, 5% to fish, 10% to cereals for
human consumption, 10% to potatoes or similar basic staples, 10% to
legumes of various varieties, 5% for fruits such as apples, and 15% to
various other items that I haven't thought of yet.

With that mix, on average per hectare per day you could expect:

220 g of red meat
130 g of fish
260 g of eggs
1.4 L of milk
50 g of butter
1.4 kg of cereal products
6.8 kg of potatoes (!)
550 g of peas, beans, or lentils
4.1 kg of apples (or other fruits)

If you don't think this is enough to support a person for a day, you
*really* need to go on a diet ;)

Naturally, I'm not a dietician and the percentages were just plucked
out of the air.  Feel free to change them.  In particular, you should
reallocate heaps of area from human-edible produce to other purposes;
people don't need to eat anywhere near that much.

The yields themselves were *not* plucked out of the air, they were
gathered and cross-checked from various agricultural reports while I
should have been building a document control system today.


I'm actually rather surprised: my original estimate was based on just
eyeballing Tasmania's map and guessing how much of it feeds Tasmania's
population.  It looks like my original estimate of 1 hectare per
person was grossly high.  Based on these firmer and more authoritative
figures, 0.2 hectares per person should suffice.

And remember, this is all based on *current* technology, and with
little economic incentive for high yields per unit area of land.
(Ongoing expenses are far more significant than land values)

By TL15 you can almost certainly synthesize everything you need,
including getting the texture just right.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 03:08:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 02:08:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <3D53003A.1070102@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D53003A.1070102@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020809190742.B3949@freeman.little-possums.net>

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> You can't compare these, and which model is correct depends on which
> rule set you use.

Isn't this a bit deplorable, considering that they're all meant to be
describing the same universe?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 03:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 02:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020808214249.025e5ec8@192.168.0.1>
References: <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <m3sn1p7yq7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20020808214249.025e5ec8@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020809190909.C3949@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> As to what they grow to get that yield, there are things that will
>do it,

Yes, just about anything will do it.  You don't need to resort to
algae.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 03:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  9 02:12:03 2002
Subject: Growing Food (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization)
In-Reply-To: <20020809014903.25005.59602.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17d5nW-0004bi-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>) wrote:

> Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:
> > 
> > That's broken.  An average hectare per person assigned to food
> > production is ample even with current technology and without trying
> > hard.  Tech level 15 should be able to do *much* better.
> 
> You can feed a man on 2 1/2 acres?  What would you be planting?

Lots of stuff.  Soybeans, rice, and various greens and root veggies 
should work at that size.  IIRC, that's also enough room to do for   
to do high density carp ponds where the fish are feed agricultural 
waste.  There are lots of high density farming options, and I believe 
the minimums are actually more like 1.5-2 acres person.  OTOH, 
you can't grow beef or pretty much any meat other than carp at 
that density.  

Also, if you are willing to do hydroponics you can do multiple levels 
hydroponic trays.  With 1.5 meters between vertically stacked 
trays, you could grow 2.5 acres of food in a 1.5 acre warehouse 
that was 3 meters tall and still have space to harvest everything.    

Finally, I'm guessing vat meat will be no more than TL 11 and that's 
likely not going to take much space at all.  

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 03:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 02:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Stripmime
In-Reply-To: <B97873B1.69033%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B97873B1.69033%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020809191300.D3949@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> Someone on the TML kindly modified Stripmime to allow messages without a
> content type to get posted on the list (A fix for Leonard).

That would be me.  Locating and sending it now.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 03:31:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 02:31:13 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <001a01c23f4b$b6502d00$7400a8c0@matt>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <001a01c23f4b$b6502d00$7400a8c0@matt>
Message-ID: <20020809193011.F3949@freeman.little-possums.net>

Matthew Bond wrote:
> Basically your position is that due to the ready availability of
> cheap fusion power and the relatively small volume of interstellar
> trade, an isolated system is still essentially self-sufficient in
> most circumstances. Fair enough.

I'm saying they don't even need cheap fusion power.  Solar insolation
is good enough.


> However, the original post on this 'Failed World' topic was regarding their
> prevalence in TNE.

Actually, the original post was:
  >> How serious is the trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took place
  >> because the small island of England was not self-sufficient in either
  >> agricultural or industrial matters, but I don't think this situation
  >> will arise on many _planets_.  
  >
  > cough cough
  >        How many dinky airless rockballs with large populations do the world 
  > generation rules permit? 

Unless you mean this one:
  >         I know that they won't starve. Out of curiosity, I decided to work out what 
  > might happen though. 

In both cases, it was purely the isolation effect that we were
considering, not any active bombardment or aggressive forces.

In particular, I am not remotely interested in any effects based on
particular aspects of the TNE setting history.  If you want to know
more about my opinion on that subject, search the archives.  I will
elaborate no further.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 03:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 02:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEOIEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <20020806203758.D28821@freeman.little-possums.net> <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEOIEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20020809193421.G3949@freeman.little-possums.net>

Terry Carlino wrote:
> In the second case they will see the flash and know something's
> coming, but it still might take days for the attacker's units to
> form up and weeks for them to actually attack.

Are you saying that the tracking systems will lose them in the
meantime?  That may be so, but surely the attacker must form their
plans based on the probability that they are still being tracked?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christian K)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Lawyers should look into this...
References: <200208090248.MJH00974@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <002801c23f8c$4e3199c0$0664a8c0@bigdarkone>

From: "John T. Kwon"
> "Glenn M. Goffin" says
> >Where did you get your silent gauss rifle?  The bullets in
> >mine always make a boom as they break the sound barrier.
> Actually, I've fired quite a few rifle rounds with a
> suppressor - the crack is noticeable - but depending on where
> you are downrange, it may be impossible to localize the
> source of the firing.  The crack is heard as the round passes
> you by - if the round misses far to the right of you, you
> will hear the sound to your right, even if the shooter is
> nowhere to the right.
> I would be that the gauss rifle would sound like this, except
> that the sound from the firing point would be non-existent.
Actually a Suppressor works by slowing bullets under soundspeed so they
don't break the soundbarrier. So considering the tremendous high speed on
wich a Gaussgun relies to get its punch it would be more or less sensless to
slow it down. And since laser are Loud as Hell if you want silent weaps use
em in HardVac or chemical supressed ones. (or MagAccel with low speeds)

my two cents ;)

Chris



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: COMET BUSTERS
Message-ID: <eg57lukcjjik00lqt50t7684vf8f6anab3@4ax.com>

I sent you email requesting a real name to attach to Comet Busters, as
Freelance Traveller policy is to have either a real name (preferred) or a
plausible pseudonym (allowed on a case-by-case basis, liberal decision
criteria) attached to an article, and Comet Busters is definitely worth
seeing in Freelance Traveller.  Do I assume from lack of reply that you are
_not_ interested in seeing it there?



Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture 
Enterprises, 1977-2000.  Use of the trademark in 
this notice and in the referenced materials is not 
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.freelancetraveller.com
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
editor@freelancetraveller.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <p04330103b9720a71cb73@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20809.011127.5m5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> It seemed a good deal.  You aren't first into battle (you aren't any 
> more likely to get killed since the unfrozen guys get killed first) 
> and you don't have to deal with boredom between battles.  Odds are 
> you sign up, get frozen, and wake up with all your pay waiting for 
> you.

Unless you missed the clause in the contract that calculates your
"term" by the time you spend *thawed*. Mind you, it's legal, because
you *do* get paid for the frozen time, though at a lower rate.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:26:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:26:31 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <011801c23adc$bdd0f780$1d17bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <20809.024856.2h6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>
>> >Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
>>  >big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.
>>
>> What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other sensor
> systems
>> you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?
>
>
> Mines, even of a CAPTOR type, don't have much area coverage. You'd need a
> lot of them to cover an area, though orbits and other choke points are a
> possibility.

There's always the "nuclear shotgun" approach. 

Basicly, a nuke that is being used to convery something (styrofoam
works!) into a plasma to push a bunch of projectiles. 

Someone posted a design on rec.arts.sf.science years back, and I copied
it here. 

The basic idea is that you get a conical (or spherical, though conical
is more efficient) of fractional c BBs. 

This can make life very hazardous throughout a *large* volume. 

Is that a commsat, a chunk of scrap from a battle, or a mine? And can
you afford the time to avoid coming within the mutiple *thousand* km
kill range of all such objects in approaching a planet?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:27:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:27:01 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <133.124edb2b.2a7daff5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20809.025428.5B0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>  >> What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other 
>  >> sensor systems 
>  >> you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?
>  >
>  >I recommend you read Bruce Alan Macintosh's Definitive Sensor Rules for 
>  >T4/FF&S2 for a complete discussion of sensors.  Passive sensors IRL 
>  >would have ranges in space significanly better than those of active 
>  >sensors such as radar.
>  >
>  >http://traveller.mu.org/house/sensor.rules.html
>
> Great site, thanks.  But using this it looks like mines are right out.  I 
> wish it were so easy to detect incoming asteroids and meteors in RL.

It *is*. Bruce based the figures on *real world* sensors.

The trick is that being above the atmosphere makes a *big* difference.

Currently we have three sorts of sensors available for that. 

1. large area sensors under an atmosphere.
2. Small area wide-field sensors in satellites. 
3. larger area narrow field sensors in a couple of satellites

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:27:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:27:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Firearms in Vacumn
In-Reply-To: <3D4BD8C7.43D0D0AA@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20809.030247.9k4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> 
>>
>> >>
>> >> Do you still have any copies of The Model Rocketeer? Mine got lost a
>> >> long time ago :-(
>> >
>> > I think so, I'll have a look next time I'm cleaning that part of the 
> garage.
>> > Anything in particular
>> > or do you want that article on underwater launches?
>> 
>> Well, I'd like to have a set of the silly things, or at least a decent
>> scan of them.
>> 
>
> Leonard, I don't mind scanning a few articles, but we're talking YEARS of 
> issues(14 IIRC). I don't
> have the time to scan them all, nor the inclination to give them up. I will 
> however look for that
> article.

Don't bother. That one I remember, and it doesn't have that much of
interest to me. 

It's all the stuff I *don't* recall that I miss. Some nice technical
articles, some songs, all sorts of other stuff that I probably don't
recall right now.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:27:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:27:54 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <E17bJb8-0007Wi-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20809.031047.1I2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>
>> In mail you write:
>> 
>>> Time-Travel is a huge no-no. Do I have something against it? Yes and
>>> no. It's entertaining and fascinating to speculate on, but it would
>>> seriously unbalance a campaign. I also like the idea that
>>> consequences of one's actions are irreversable...Time Travel far too
>>> often gives one an out to correct mistakes.
>> 
>> Well, the theoretical work that physicists have done on the
>> possibility of time travel in the real world says that two things will
>> be true if it's possible:
>> 
>> 1. You can't travel back before the instant the machione is first
>>    activated.
>> 
>> 2. You can't alter the past. You'd have free will to the exact extent
>>    that you *don't* know what happened. 
>
> Actually, from what I've read, those are only true *if* causality is 
> always preserved.  If it is possible to utterly toss causality out the 
> window, then time travel can involve whatever you want.  It's 
> interesting to me that preservation of causality seems something 
> almost all phyicists assume to be true w/o having any absolute 
> necessity that the world actually operates this way.  We haven't 
> seen any obvious causality violations, but until last century we also 
> never saw any obvious relativistic effects.  Personally, I think the 
> universe would be a considerably more interesting (in all possible 
> meanings of this word) place is causality is not strictly preserved.

Actuallity, there are two kinds of causality. If local causality is
preserved, then time travel isn't possible at all.

If *local* causality isn't preserved, but global causality is, then you
get the situation I described.

If global causality isn't preserved, then you can have effects without
causes and a number of other things. And they basicly make hash of the
very *idea* of there being natural laws. Which is why scientists are so
reluctant to accept causality violations. 

Causality is *very* basic. 

ps. What I described *also* requires that relativity hold. 

You can have any two out of the following three:

local causality
relativity
FTL

If relativity holds, FTL *is* time travel.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Lawyers should look into this...
Message-ID: <200208091057.MJX01100@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Christian K" says
>Actually a Suppressor works by slowing bullets under 
>soundspeed so they don't break the soundbarrier.

Only in certain weapons.  In rifles, they only reduce the 
apparent sound of the weapon itself (reducing or altering the 
gas expansion sound impulse).  The bullet itself is not 
intended to be reduced in velocity.

The quietest weapons are designed with a subsonic round 
(ideally, a bullet that is just below the speed of sound).  
But they have the shortest range.

>And since laser are Loud as Hell

I've heard an Avco industrial laser in operation - the only 
sound was the power conditioning - I didn't hear any sound 
from the beam.

________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:59:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:59:28 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <20809.031047.1I2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <E17bJb8-0007Wi-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3D54490D.22627.620186C@localhost>

On 9 Aug 2002, at 3:10, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> You can have any two out of the following three:

> local causality
> relativity
> FTL

> If relativity holds, FTL *is* time travel.

Try this for an interesting take on things

http://www.discover.com/june_02/featuniverse.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:59:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:59:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: COMET BUSTERS
Message-ID: <200208091058.MJX01143@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Jeff Zeitlin <editor@freelancetraveller.com>  
>I sent you email requesting a real name to attach to Comet 
>Busters...


I think this is for someone else...
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 05:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 04:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
Message-ID: <200208091101.MJX01284@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson
>Causality is *very* basic. 


Wheeler has shown that there is no proof that causality is a 
requirement of this universe as a basic law.  It makes a nice 
thought, but by no means is it a requirement.

The two-slit experiment, played out over interstellar 
distances, or even across a tabletop in a lab, was shown in 
1987 to indicate that causality is violated on a regular 
basis.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 05:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 04:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Stripmime
In-Reply-To: <B97873B1.69033%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20809.034100.0C2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Someone on the TML kindly modified Stripmime to allow messages without a
> content type to get posted on the list (A fix for Leonard).  If that person
> still has a copy, could they please contact me.  I've lost the original that
> you sent me.

If it runs on Intel family CPUs under DOS, Windoze, or OS/2, I'd be
interested in a copy..

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 05:34:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 04:34:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Professor Barker??
In-Reply-To: <000601c23c02$0d81b280$08984c51@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <20809.042448.8M6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>>Depart now and you forever separate
>>>yourselves from the vital gaming legacies of James Dunnigan,
>>>Steve Jackson, Gary Gygax, Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank
>>>Chadwick, Andrew Keith, William Keith, John Harshman,
>>>Professor Barker, and Richard Tucholka.
>>
>>Professor Barker {?} info please.
>>
>>Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
>
> Empire of the Petal Throne!
>
> It was a early D&D derivative by the above mentioned prof.
>
> It had a very oriental feel with him having a background in linguistics (and
> it counted as sci-fi due to the strange background history... Humans and
> other aliens try to terraform a planet, much to the anoyance of it
> inhabitants, entire solar system disappears into a void, leaving everybody
> up the creak, a few thousand years regression (theres no iron on planet!)
> and alternate cultural development  later and enter the PCs.
>
> It spawn numerous expansions, and two  novels bu M.A.R. Barker himself.
>
> Major prob with this world? pronouncing the words! He did a Tolkien and
> created his own languages and scripts.

There are fonts available for the main alphabet (Ev-something), and
there's even unicode space reserved for it.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 05:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Aug  9 04:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <200208091101.MJX01284@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D5452F6.32566.646D18B@localhost>

On 9 Aug 2002, at 7:01, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Leonard Erickson
> >Causality is *very* basic. 

> Wheeler has shown that there is no proof that causality is a 
> requirement of this universe as a basic law.  It makes a nice 
> thought, but by no means is it a requirement.

Not quite. If I understand Wheeler correctly, causality is not violated as 
such (cause still precedes effect). Its just cause is not determined until the 
effect is observed.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 05:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christian K)
Date: Fri Aug  9 04:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lawyers should look into this...
References: <200208091057.MJX01100@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <006601c23f9b$9abfb150$0664a8c0@bigdarkone>

From: "John T. Kwon"
> Only in certain weapons.  In rifles, they only reduce the
> apparent sound of the weapon itself (reducing or altering the
> gas expansion sound impulse).  The bullet itself is not
> intended to be reduced in velocity.
You're absolutely right there my mistake i didn't make clear that it only
applys to certain weapons.


<snip>
> >And since laser are Loud as Hell
>
> I've heard an Avco industrial laser in operation - the only
> sound was the power conditioning - I didn't hear any sound
> from the beam.
Well ok sofar as my Physiks prof told me and  i did some research in it. A
High powered laser.. (not the ones used for cutting they are actually fairly
low powered in comparison) well the lasers we have in GT that is fir a
milisecond impulse off realy high power. According to what i read so far a
short recently high and hot powered lasershot would heat the air it passes
threw and in its wake even could create a vacum. The air popping back would
make a sound more like a plopp and by far nothing a bullet sounds like but
it wouldn't been the SF Film screech and it wouldn't been silent. Just some
kind off sound recently high powered laser would make more/louder sounds due
to more superheated ionized or whatever that word in english is Air.

Thats what i read so far... i could be completele wrong here since i'm not a
Physiks prof or teacher or something like that but for me it sounded
sensefull.

Chris



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 06:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Aug  9 05:18:02 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <001a01c23f4b$b6502d00$7400a8c0@matt> <20020809193011.F3949@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt>

Timothy Little wrote:
> Matthew Bond wrote:
>> However, the original post on this 'Failed World' topic was
>> regarding their prevalence in TNE.
>
> Actually, the original post was:
>   >> How serious is the trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took
> place   >> because the small island of England was not self-
> sufficient in either   >> agricultural or industrial matters, but I
> don't think this situation   >> will arise on many _planets_.
>   >
>   > cough cough
>   >        How many dinky airless rockballs with large populations do
> the world   > generation rules permit?
>
> Unless you mean this one:
>   >         I know that they won't starve. Out of curiosity, I
> decided to work out what   > might happen though.
>
> In both cases, it was purely the isolation effect that we were
> considering, not any active bombardment or aggressive forces.
>
> In particular, I am not remotely interested in any effects based on
> particular aspects of the TNE setting history.  If you want to know
> more about my opinion on that subject, search the archives.  I will
> elaborate no further.

Actually I was referring to the immediately prior post in the tread, by
Flykiller@aol.com...

[Quote]
>> How
 >> serious is the trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took place
because
 >> the small island of England was not self-sufficient in either
agricultural
 >> or industrial matters, but I don't think this situation will arise on
many
 >> _planets_.  If trade is truly a major issue and lifeline then a massed
herd
 >> of raiders will be crippling regardless of any other fleet elements
 >> employed.  But I think most planets with populations sufficient to have
 >> significant trade connections will have huge internal capacites to
produce
 >> what they need anyway, and huge reserves of whatever they have to import
 >> (consider our Strategic Oil Reserve).
 >
 >If planets are so self sufficient, then why does TNE describe planets
failing
 >because they were cut off from interstellar trade?

Don't know.  Doesn't make much sense to me.  I can see it happening here and
there of course, but not en masse.  TNE may state it, but that's not
necessarily a reason to just swallow it.
_______________________________________________

[/Quote]

This post does mention TNE.

Your arguement was that irrespective of trade all planets can (perhaps even
'must') be self sufficient. That may well be the case under normal
circumstances. In the TNE setting things were not 'normal' at the time of
the failure of these worlds.

Thats all I'm saying... given sufficient stress to the system (irrespective
of which particular Traveller setting you use), you can Fail any planet that
isn't capable of supporting life without TL9+ intervention.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 06:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Aug  9 05:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020809190909.C3949@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020808214249.025e5ec8@192.168.0.1>
 <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
 <02080313391901.00601@linux>
 <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <02080817101100.00601@linux>
 <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <m3sn1p7yq7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020808214249.025e5ec8@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020809081548.00ce0780@192.168.0.1>

At 07:09 PM 8/9/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
> > As to what they grow to get that yield, there are things that will
> >do it,
>Yes, just about anything will do it.  You don't need to resort to
>algae.

The algae came to mind quickly because it's such a complete food source, 
and easy to grow in non-ag situations.

It wasn't worth my time to dig out more complete data on the subject.
Thanks for providing it.

To sum up, the higher the tech level, the easier it will be on rockballs to 
survive independently.
Higher tech level rockballs (one that sustain their own TL C+ industry) 
will have no problems supporting large populations food wise.
Lower tech level rockballs can do it, it will take more effort, space, etc.
Easier to do if you just worry about feeding them, less so, but doable, if 
you want a diverse diet.

If you start kicking the support functions of their civilization (for what 
ever reason), they will have problems of varying degrees.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 06:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 05:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT:  December ARPC shoot
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020807104836.009f6c50@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20809.052524.8r5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 04:58 PM 8/6/02 -0700, you wrote:
>>Good to hear!  I'm desperately going to try to make it up again finally, 
>>as the financial situation has improved a little.  Providing of course 
>>that I can get a new roomate and don't have to keep paying twice the rent 
>>like I am now :(  Also, I'm going to invite Erin again, and maybe I can 
>>get my "girlfriend" to go too ;)
>
> I too, shall try to make it up.  I'll be at OryCon the week before that (as 
> Gaming GOH, if you can believe that, so unless you can give me rifde, no 
> way I can afford to fly twice in that length of time.

No, Orycon is *two* weeks before the shoot 11/22-11/24. Says so on the
form I still have to mail in!

> -- 
>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
>
> "I'm just trying to evict them. Frogs never pay."
>                              - Rose Platt
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 06:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew W. Helton)
Date: Fri Aug  9 05:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Lawyers should look into this...
In-Reply-To: <002801c23f8c$4e3199c0$0664a8c0@bigdarkone>
Message-ID: <000001c23fa4$024d9320$fd00a8c0@sulaco>

Christian,

		Muzzle suppressors do nothing to slow the projectile:
they are merely a device to cool and slow the propellant the gasses to
reduce the report.

	There are types of integral suppressors (Sten MKIIs, Sterling
MKV/L34A1, MP5SD5) which do bleed some of the high pressure gasses from
the barrel itself into the suppressor while the projectile is still in
the bore. These suppressors do not require special subsonic ammunition
in order for truly silenced shooting.

				Best,

					Matthew W. Helton


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 07:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  9 06:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Do I have to Yahoo! ?
Message-ID: <155.122f2469.2a851759@aol.com>

>Could someone tell me if it is necessary to follow these instructions to
>subscribe to The JTAS
>
>John Scarlett

John,

All you have to do is go to <http://jtas.sjgames.com/> 

and click on "Subscribe" then follow the directions.

You can look at a sample issue without subscribing if you like. 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 07:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 06:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
Message-ID: <200208091312.MKB02981@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance" says
>Not quite. If I understand Wheeler correctly, causality is 
>not violated as such (cause still precedes effect). Its just 
>cause is not determined until the effect is observed.

the problem is that the nature of the observation will force 
a photon to the left or the right - an observation that is 
taken perhaps a billion years after the photon departed. 
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 08:22:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Aug  9 07:22:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
Message-ID: <F24qs1wP7vvqgqGTwgT0000593c@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     The current Frontier Wars thread has given me an excuse to post a 
little something.  Besides, it sure beats having Finster carom rocks off my 
old grey pate (You know, for a three-year-old, that little SOB sure has a 
great arm.  He nailed me with a rock at a good 25 feet yesterday.  If he 
ever gets his hands on any firearms, we'll have to change his name to 
Ditzie.)
     To my addled mind, Zho strategy over the last 6 centuries has been 
pretty simple; deflect Imperial expansion away from the Consulate and 
stabilize the border.  After looking at the maps, even before the Zhos got 
their "make-over" from mind-rapers to well adjusted psionicists in Late CT, 
this strategy was pretty self evident.
     Oddly enough, this happened to be the Imperial strategy against the 
Alsan!
     The Consulate has been active, albeit thin on the ground, in the 
Marches for quite a long time, certainly from only a few centuries after the 
Darrians had their little "accident". (Did Tanis' odd flares, when viewed 
from a great distance, lure Zho exploration towards the Marches?)
     The Consulate's goals are two-fold; first evict the Imperium from the 
Foreven and Ziafrfplians Sectors and a portion of the Marches, then create a 
Dark Nebula-style buffer zone of small polities to act as a shield.  The 
first goal has been accompished.  The second has been only partially 
completed.
     Inserting the five Frontier Wars into this overall strategic framework 
becomes an easy task:

     First Frontier War - Eviction of Imperial colonies and elimination of 
Imperial client state relationships within Consulate territory.  A Zho 
success.
     Second Frontier War - Continued evictions.  Buffer zone begins to form. 
  A Zho success.
     Third Frontier War - Majority of the buffer zone created.  A Zho 
success.
     Fourth Frontier War - Launched prematurely by local authorities after a 
period increased tensions.  A draw.
     Fifth Frontier War -  An attempt to complete the buffer zone by 
detaching the Jewell subsector and other small slices of Imperial territory. 
  This would continue the buffer zone coreward until it contacted Vargr 
space.

     The Zho's three main offensives fit this idea neatly.  First, they "pin 
down" the Jewels.  Second, a sickle stroke through the Efate region to cut 
the Jewels off.  Third, a deep strike at Rhylanor to gain the war's supreme 
bargaining chip.
     If all had gone well, the Jewels would be slowly ground down by a 
series of planetary seiges, cutoff from the rest of the Imperium by Zho 
forces in the Efate region, and eventually abandoned by the Imperium at the 
negotiation table in return for the Zhodani evacuation of Rhylanor.
     Of course, no plan survives contact with the enemy, but the Consulate's 
hubris can be forgiven.  After all, they had won every Frontier War prior to 
the Fifth.  To paraphrase Moltke, the Consulate planned well, but didn't 
quite plan enough.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 08:24:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Aug  9 07:24:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra, Zhakirov and Antiama
References: <20020730221303.16806.79173.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001701c23fb1$0020b520$5d5d8690@computer>

Ah! I think I've worked out the real reason why I don't think that
Arbellatra was responsible for the marriage of Zhakirov and Antiama.

My objection is not so much the logical problems, which, while they exist,
can be overcome, but actually the dramatic ones.

It's kind of like having Macbeth showing up in Hamlet, and making the plot
happen. Essentially, by giving such an active role to Arbellatra, the story
of Zhakirov and Antiama is weakened.

The backstories of the OTU are, in fact, stories, and dramatic
considerations can and should be taken into account in working out "what
really happened". Where two possible courses are logically possible, the one
that makes the better story should be preferred, IMHO.

YMMV, of course.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 08:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 07:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] cause and effect
Message-ID: <200208091428.MKE00298@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

RnJvbSB0aGUgYXJ0aWNsZToNCg0KQnkgdGhlIHRpbWUgdGhlIGFzdHJvbm9tZXJzIGRlY2lk
ZSB3aGljaCBtZWFzdXJlbWVudCB0byBtYWtl4oCUIA0Kd2hldGhlciB0byBwaW4gZG93biB0
aGUgcGhvdG9uIHRvIG9uZSBkZWZpbml0ZSByb3V0ZSBvciB0byANCmhhdmUgaXQgZm9sbG93
IGJvdGggcGF0aHMgc2ltdWx0YW5lb3VzbHnigJQgdGhlIHBob3RvbiBjb3VsZCANCmhhdmUg
YWxyZWFkeSBqb3VybmV5ZWQgZm9yIGJpbGxpb25zIG9mIHllYXJzLCBsb25nIGJlZm9yZSAN
CmxpZmUgYXBwZWFyZWQgb24gRWFydGguIFRoZSBtZWFzdXJlbWVudHMgbWFkZSBub3csIHNh
eXMgDQpXaGVlbGVyLCBkZXRlcm1pbmUgdGhlIHBob3RvbidzIHBhc3QuIEluIG9uZSBjYXNl
IHRoZSANCmFzdHJvbm9tZXJzIGNyZWF0ZSBhIHBhc3QgaW4gd2hpY2ggYSBwaG90b24gdG9v
ayBib3RoIA0KcG9zc2libGUgcm91dGVzIGZyb20gdGhlIHF1YXNhciB0byBFYXJ0aC4gQWx0
ZXJuYXRpdmVseSwgdGhleSANCnJldHJvYWN0aXZlbHkgZm9yY2UgdGhlIHBob3RvbiBvbnRv
IG9uZSBzdHJhaWdodCB0cmFpbCB0b3dhcmQgDQp0aGVpciBkZXRlY3RvciwgZXZlbiB0aG91
Z2ggdGhlIHBob3RvbiBiZWdhbiBpdHMgamF1bnQgbG9uZyANCmJlZm9yZSBhbnkgZGV0ZWN0
b3JzIGV4aXN0ZWQuIA0KDQpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQpHZWUsIEkgaG9wZSBUZWQgV2ls
bGlhbXMgc2F3DQpWYW5pbGxhIFNreSBiZWZvcmUgaGUgc2lnbmVkIHRoYXQgY29udHJhY3Qu
Li4NCg==

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 09:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  9 08:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Lawyers should look into this...
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEELPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
>"Glenn M. Goffin" says
>>Where did you get your silent gauss rifle?  The bullets in
>>mine always make a boom as they break the sound barrier.

[excellent discussion deleted]

>I would be that the gauss rifle would sound like this, except
>that the sound from the firing point would be non-existent.

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>Most of the sound associated with weapons fire is the sound of the powder
>going off.  The crack of the bullet is negligible.  For example, a silenced
>.22LR is nearly silent in operation.
>
>A 4mm gauss round would make a high pitched *crack* audible only to those
>near the flight path.

That works for me.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 09:38:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  9 08:38:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra, Zhakirov and Antiama
In-Reply-To: <001701c23fb1$0020b520$5d5d8690@computer>
References: <20020730221303.16806.79173.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020809080818.009f13d0@mindspring.com>

At 12:27 AM 8/10/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Ah! I think I've worked out the real reason why I don't think that
>Arbellatra was responsible for the marriage of Zhakirov and Antiama.
>
>My objection is not so much the logical problems, which, while they exist,
>can be overcome, but actually the dramatic ones.
>
>It's kind of like having Macbeth showing up in Hamlet, and making the plot
>happen. Essentially, by giving such an active role to Arbellatra, the story
>of Zhakirov and Antiama is weakened.
>
>The backstories of the OTU are, in fact, stories, and dramatic
>considerations can and should be taken into account in working out "what
>really happened". Where two possible courses are logically possible, the one
>that makes the better story should be preferred, IMHO.

I was a bit unclear.  I meant to show that Arbellatra set the stage by 
weakening the Solomani grip on power at the court that had led to the Civil 
War in the first place.  I imagine many nobles were stripped of their 
titles, and those titles passed to others.  She also, IMTU, shook up the 
bureaucracy and made it more effective by elevating Vilani business people 
to positions of authority, complete with the appropriate titles.

Plot hook.  Admiral Arbellatra, Regent of the Imperium, has elevated a 
Vilani sector accountant to Minister of Finance, replacing a corrupt noble 
who held the position previously.  The Duke understands that if his 
dealings are examined, he'll spend the rest of his life on a TL2 exile 
world.  His only hope is to prevent the new Minister from reaching 
Capitial.  The PCs are the Marines and starmen sent to escort the new 
Minister and his family to the Regent.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 09:38:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  9 08:38:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
In-Reply-To: <F24qs1wP7vvqgqGTwgT0000593c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020809081646.009f77c0@mindspring.com>

At 02:21 PM 8/9/02 +0000, you wrote:

My dear Whipsnade..

>     The current Frontier Wars thread has given me an excuse to post a 
> little something.  Besides, it sure beats having Finster carom rocks off 
> my old grey pate (You know, for a three-year-old, that little SOB sure 
> has a great arm.  He nailed me with a rock at a good 25 feet 
> yesterday.  If he ever gets his hands on any firearms, we'll have to 
> change his name to Ditzie.)

I suggest constant suggestions that the young hellion requires an immediate 
bath.  The word bath sets of such a primal flight response in small 
children that I'm covinced that at the dawn of mankind we were hunted by 
some horror whose call was "bath!  baatthh!"  Young Finster  shall spend 
the remainder of the occupation hiding behind the couch, surviving on dust 
bunnies and old hard candies.

>     To my addled mind, Zho strategy over the last 6 centuries has been 
> pretty simple; deflect Imperial expansion away from the Consulate and 
> stabilize the border.  After looking at the maps, even before the Zhos 
> got their "make-over" from mind-rapers to well adjusted psionicists in 
> Late CT, this strategy was pretty self evident.
>     Oddly enough, this happened to be the Imperial strategy against the 
> Alsan!

Good eye!  This is very true of the later ABWs.

>     The Consulate has been active, albeit thin on the ground, in the 
> Marches for quite a long time, certainly from only a few centuries after 
> the Darrians had their little "accident". (Did Tanis' odd flares, when 
> viewed from a great distance, lure Zho exploration towards the Marches?)
>     The Consulate's goals are two-fold; first evict the Imperium from the 
> Foreven and Ziafrfplians Sectors and a portion of the Marches, then 
> create a Dark Nebula-style buffer zone of small polities to act as a 
> shield.  The first goal has been accompished.  The second has been only 
> partially completed.

But can be considered a success.  There have been no Imperial attempts to 
establish colonies in Zhodani space for 700 years.

>     Fifth Frontier War -  An attempt to complete the buffer zone by 
> detaching the Jewell subsector and other small slices of Imperial 
> territory.  This would continue the buffer zone coreward until it 
> contacted Vargr space.
>
>     The Zho's three main offensives fit this idea neatly.  First, they 
> "pin down" the Jewels.  Second, a sickle stroke through the Efate region 
> to cut the Jewels off.  Third, a deep strike at Rhylanor to gain the 
> war's supreme bargaining chip.
>     If all had gone well, the Jewels would be slowly ground down by a 
> series of planetary seiges, cutoff from the rest of the Imperium by Zho 
> forces in the Efate region, and eventually abandoned by the Imperium at 
> the negotiation table in return for the Zhodani evacuation of Rhylanor.
>     Of course, no plan survives contact with the enemy, but the 
> Consulate's hubris can be forgiven.  After all, they had won every 
> Frontier War prior to the Fifth.  To paraphrase Moltke, the Consulate 
> planned well, but didn't quite plan enough.

The also ran into a wild card: Norris.  You can't predict an unexpected 
enemy commander that is a bloody genius and has figured out your plan.  I 
always wondered if Norris' branch of Naval Intelligence hadn't actually 
learned bits and pieces of the Zhodani plan.

The Zho's over-reached themselves, in my opinion.  They didn't properly 
understand the strength of the Imperium's "defense in depth" concept, nor 
the tenacity of local forces.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 09:39:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  9 08:39:04 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Lawyers should look into this...
In-Reply-To: <200208090248.MJH00974@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020809082853.009ea2a0@mindspring.com>

At 10:48 PM 8/8/02 -0400, you wrote:
>"Glenn M. Goffin" says
> >Where did you get your silent gauss rifle?  The bullets in
> >mine always make a boom as they break the sound barrier.
>
>Actually, I've fired quite a few rifle rounds with a
>suppressor - the crack is noticeable - but depending on where
>you are downrange, it may be impossible to localize the
>source of the firing.  The crack is heard as the round passes
>you by - if the round misses far to the right of you, you
>will hear the sound to your right, even if the shooter is
>nowhere to the right.

The sound made by a round passing close by is sort of a "thwip"  You only 
hear it when it is close to you, so when crawling through razor-wire at Ft. 
Benning, the 7.62mm rounds being fired above your head sound *damn* 
close.  The loudest sound by far is the weapon itself.

>I would be that the gauss rifle would sound like this, except
>that the sound from the firing point would be non-existent.

*thwip*thwip*thwip*thwip*thwip*thwip*thwip*


-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Animals who are not penguins can only wish they were.
                          -Chicago reader, 10/15/82



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 09:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  9 08:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Arbellatra
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMELPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
>
>As a matter of fact, I am unconvinced that the modern
>`generalist-to-18' model is long for this world.  I think that as
[deletion]
> It's rapidly becoming apparent that four years of college are
>not enough; master's or doctoral work is necessary to truly _grok_ a
>subject (and I write this as one without a master's or a doctorate).
>
>The only workable solution, given that children of an early age are
>not properly testable, is a system of like-father-like-son.  Which,
>fortunately enough, ties into mankind's proclivities enough that it'll
>probably work out nicely enough.

Like-father-like-son destroyed the Roman empire, but that doesn't mean we
won't see it again.  I think that the vast majority of people will always be
generalists, because most of human life requires a general knowledge of how
to do things.  There may very well be some elites that develop a
generational focus on extremely complex subjects, but not everyone by a long
shot.

That's probably what the seneschal class does, and we've never yet had a
character generation system for the seneschal -- probably because there are
no retired seneschals to go adventuring.  They are born into the class,
study all their lives to synthesize, abstract, and communicate vast
quantities of information, and do exactly that until they contract
Alzheimer's and are debriefed in nursing homes.

--Glenn

"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher
a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts,
build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders,
cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure,
program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently and die gallantly.
Specialization is for insects."

-- Robert A. Heinlein


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 09:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  9 08:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEMACEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>
>     The current Frontier Wars thread has given me an excuse to post a
>little something.  Besides, it sure beats having Finster carom rocks off my

[excellent analysis deleted]
>
  >  Fifth Frontier War -  An attempt to complete the buffer zone by
>detaching the Jewell subsector and other small slices of Imperial
territory.
>  This would continue the buffer zone coreward until it contacted Vargr
>space.
>
>     The Zho's three main offensives fit this idea neatly.  First, they
"pin
>down" the Jewels.  Second, a sickle stroke through the Efate region to cut
>the Jewels off.  Third, a deep strike at Rhylanor to gain the war's supreme
>bargaining chip.
>     If all had gone well, the Jewels would be slowly ground down by a
>series of planetary seiges, cutoff from the rest of the Imperium by Zho
>forces in the Efate region, and eventually abandoned by the Imperium at the
>negotiation table in return for the Zhodani evacuation of Rhylanor.

Dear Mr. Whipsnade:

I heartily endorse your basic analysis, which must be further evidence for
the common belief that great minds think alike -- er, I mean, that Traveller
players need to get a life -- no wait a bit...

Anyway, if the boardgame of Fifth Frontier War is a good simulation, it is
almost impossible for the Imperial player to avoid losing the Jewells in a
few turns.  The Zhodani player has enough resources to overwhelm the Jewells
and still take the 300 points needed to achieve an automatic victory (not
that it's easy, but it's doable).

So the Jewells would not have to be ground down by planetary sieges.  Jewell
itself is always a battle, but the Mongo National Guard will flee in terror
after some bombing, and Esalin, Emerald, and Ruby have no defense forces to
speak of (those TL 8 motorized infantry on Esalin are more terrified that
the MNG, but can't flee as fast).  Lysen and Grant likewise need only to be
occupied.

One Zhodani fleet should go directly to Jewell for a major space and ground
fight.  Two smaller fleets should take the rest of the cluster (one takes
Emerald and Ruby, the other Mongo and Esalin), then move on to Grant and
Lysen, then head for Regina (which is pretty easy to take).  Phase one is
complete.  Begin processing the captives!

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 10:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 09:28:03 2002
Subject: Growing Food (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization)
In-Reply-To: <E17d5nW-0004bi-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028910449.6838.ajackson@ping>

sneadj@mindspring.com writes:
 
> Lots of stuff.  Soybeans, rice, and various greens and root veggies 
> should work at that size.

Actually, 2.5 acres per person (250 people per square mile) is only a little
over the upper limit of medieval agriculture, assuming 100% arable land (which
is, obviously, a bit unrealistic).  As such, it's really not a challenge for
any TL 5+ world.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 11:09:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug  9 10:09:06 2002
Subject: [TML] test, ignore
Message-ID: <B9794537.690D6%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

This is a test of mime stripping
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 11:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug  9 10:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] test 2, ignore
Message-ID: <B9794A6F.690DF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Another test of MIME stripping
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 11:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug  9 10:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] test3, ignore
Message-ID: <B9794AF5.690E3%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Final MIME test
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 11:50:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Aug  9 10:50:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Macene Landgrab
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHIEMIILAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Little things cast big ripples; in BTC map, Macene is listed as
Depot, and in the description it is listed as the site of the
Spinward Branch of the Fleet Tactics College.  I read this and
the little guy with the pitchfork and the little guy with the
halo who sit on my shoulder started jumping up and down chortling
maniacally.

If someone wants to grab these and post 'em, go ahead


Macene

Macene is still under development and will be for decades but
stands to become Depot Spinward Marches. It is built and sited to
command the flank of any would be Zhodane, Sword Worlds, or Vagyr
incursion into Imperial space; provide, along with Rhylanor, a middle
tier main base between the frontline worlds of Regina and Lanth
and the rear hugging worlds of Aramis and Mara; and force attention
and dilution of effort on itself by any would be attackers.

Currently Macene is home to 9400 Navy personnel and their dependants, not
ship's crews to assigned ships, and the 10041 Engineering Wing who as
members of assigned military combat units are not counted in the population
totals.  By the end of the Holiday year as facilities go on line this
number will grow to 60,000 personnel and their dependants.  In addition, a
Marine Division and various assigned ships will swell this number.

Current plans will be to form Kokirrak Class dreadnaughts, One Demi
Batron from Rhylanor and one from Mora  will be joined to serve
as the core of the assigned fleet.

Planetoid monitors and Brilliant Pebble monitors will form the heart of
the fleet level defenses of the base, freeing mobile elements to counter
attack against enemy fleets
Current facilities

Amber Nine

Amber Nine is the current designation of the current center of operations
for the Navy at Macene.  It houses the SMFTC, the administrative command
for the entire system, housing and quarters for staff, port facilities for
the systems defense fleet.  It, like Frog Two is located within the 100 D
limit of Macene's star. It is scheduled to be officially named Arabella
Base Naval complex during the Holiday year celebrations.

Frog Two

Located opposite from Amber Nine, Frog Two is the headquarters for the
Op force and serves as a listening post and base against any attacks
from the opposite side.

Mnor Quad, Maor Delt

Maor quad is located above the North pole of the star and delt is above the
South pole, they serve as relayy stations

Fargo Station

Fargo Station is the original settlement of Macene,  Currently it is HQ
for the 10041 Fleet Engineering wing which is responsible for all
construction
in system.  Fargo station is also the current location for Civilian
refueling
and other amenities.

Facilities nearing completion

These are scheduled to go on line by the end of the holiday year

Amber Six: scheduled to be fitted as a Fleet command HQ.  A Marine division
will also be headquartered here and will serve as ground defense
for the entire complex

Amber One:  will being equipped for family residences and Visiting officer
quarters.

Amber Nine will have it's berthing capacity upgraded to 200,000 dton
ships and will be able to perform routine maintenance on ships

Maor Delt will be upgraded to a Squadron base.

Maor Delt will be upgrade to a fleet level communication nexus and will
support
a communications squadron.

Fargo Station will be upgraded to refit, repair, and replace Jump drive
components.

Fargo Station will assume command of deep meson emplacements guarding
Gas Giant "Pell below".

Timohee RedJack Station:  Named after Olav-Plankwell's Flag Captain, this
is planned to take over as the entry point for all non official traffic.
It will offer fuel at standard prices, and will have a commercial mall
for the families and residents of Macene command.

Diltin One: Dilitin commanded Arabella's Supply efforts, both during the war
and on her march on the Core.  The Diltin is designed to keep Depot supplied
and support it offensive actions.  It will originally be a warehousing
operation, but over time will grew to include greenhouses, carniculture, and
live food production, along with recycling and manufacturing plants.

Frog Seven:  Is scheduled to augment the facilities of Frog Two and serve as
the
site for the Spinward arm of the fleet gunnery school.  Meson gunnery is the
first school scheduled for completion

Mid term activation (three to ten years)

Dlitin Three:  A planned Headquarters and warehouse facility for Sector
fleet
maintainance.

Amber Seven:  first class to start Spinward Marches Depot Academy


________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 12:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri Aug  9 11:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : OK, Now What?
In-Reply-To: <000801c23de9$3cfa8300$c69c67cb@robert>
References: <000801c23de9$3cfa8300$c69c67cb@robert>
Message-ID: <p04330103b979b556d090@[143.232.119.186]>

At 6:05 PM +1000 8/7/02, Robert O'Connor wrote:
>John Kwon wrote:-
>>  First I keep reading that plasma weapons are not possible -
>>  the bolt would dissipate a short distance from the barrel. 
><snip>
>
>One potential problem was with dissipation, the other with
>the ridiculous energies required (there's a good line in 'Guns, Guns,
>Guns'
>comparing PGMP-like weapons to Bangalore torpedoes...)

My understanding of the argument is that plasma guns are what 
thermodynamics call heat engines.  Thermo requires (even at maximum 
possible efficiency) that energies comparble to the shot fired get 
released by the gun.  So how do you shoot w/out doing as much damage 
to the gun (or your hand).
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 12:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 11:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D53003A.1070102@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020809190742.B3949@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3D540E41.1040509@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Timothy Little wrote:
> Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
>>You can't compare these, and which model is correct depends on which
>>rule set you use.
> 
> 
> Isn't this a bit deplorable, considering that they're all meant to be
> describing the same universe?

Actually, they're not.

Each set of rules is indeed a different universe.

Hard Times describes the MT Late Rebellion universe. GT:FT describes the 
steady state 'Strephon walks out of the shower' universe. WBH describes 
an early rebellion/CT universe.

The fact that they all share remarkable similarities in background story 
is mere coincidence ;-)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 12:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Fri Aug  9 11:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020809081646.009f77c0@mindspring.com>
References: <F24qs1wP7vvqgqGTwgT0000593c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020809135406.00a8fe50@minn.net>

At 08:27 AM 8/9/2002 -0700, The Lord of the Penguins wrote:

>The also ran into a wild card: Norris.  You can't predict an unexpected 
>enemy commander that is a bloody genius and has figured out your plan.  I 
>always wondered if Norris' branch of Naval Intelligence hadn't actually 
>learned bits and pieces of the Zhodani plan.
>
>The Zho's over-reached themselves, in my opinion.  They didn't properly 
>understand the strength of the Imperium's "defense in depth" concept, nor 
>the tenacity of local forces.

The answer in my view is simple. 

Spy on the allies. I'm using the NAVINT operations in the Vargr Extents as
part of the background of my serial fiction project. (I'm up to the end of
page two in part five of FiHP.)


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 13:36:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Aug  9 12:36:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Lawyers should look into this...
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D96@USCHM203>

>Douglas Berry wrote:

>The sound made by a round passing close by is sort of a "thwip"  You only 
>hear it when it is close to you, so when crawling through razor-wire at Ft.

>Benning, the 7.62mm rounds being fired above your head sound *damn* 
>close.  The loudest sound by far is the weapon itself.

I remember working the targets at Parris Island. There was very little sound
to the .223 M16 rounds passing overhead---the snap of the rounds passing
through the target was louder. You could tell a complete miss, though.
I agree that the sound would probably only be audible to someone close to
the round's path, and be difficult to tell where it came from.

I read somewhere that snipers like to have a pole, large tree, or other
object very close to their line of site. The bullet passing by makes it
sound as if the shot has been fired from the direction of the object...
I'm sure someone else can explain the why and how of this better.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 13:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  9 12:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMELPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020809124501.009f0490@mindspring.com>

At 08:41 AM 8/9/02 -0700, you wrote:
>That's probably what the seneschal class does, and we've never yet had a
>character generation system for the seneschal -- probably because there are
>no retired seneschals to go adventuring.  They are born into the class,
>study all their lives to synthesize, abstract, and communicate vast
>quantities of information, and do exactly that until they contract
>Alzheimer's and are debriefed in nursing homes.

It would make for an interesting template.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 13:49:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  9 12:49:32 2002
Subject: [TML] test, ignore
In-Reply-To: <B9794537.690D6%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020809124700.009f1ec0@mindspring.com>

At 10:08 AM 8/9/02 -0700, you wrote:
>This is a test of mime stripping

Isn't that when you steal Marcel Marceau's hubcaps?

I mean, how is he going to call the cops and report it?


-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is
that I am now a perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague
here is rapidly running out of limbs!"
   - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 13:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (markc@peak.org)
Date: Fri Aug  9 12:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
Message-ID: <232810-22002859195212613@M2W075.mail2web.com>

Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring=2Ecom> writes:

>Most of the sound associated with weapons fire is the sound of the powder=

>going off=2E  The crack of the bullet is negligible=2E  For example, a si=
lenced
>=2E22LR is nearly silent in operation=2E

Oh, come on, Doug=2E  You and I both know they're louder than that=2E
While you certainly don't need hearing protection around one, they
sound about like a large balloon being popped=2E  Even in an open
outdoor area, I can hear one fire over 50 yds=2E away=2E  Now, if
subsonic ammo is being used, it's a whole different story=2E

>A 4mm gauss round would make a high pitched *crack* audible only to
> those near the flight path=2E

With "near" probably meaning within 200 meters=2E  (This assumes a
calm, clear day, across level terrain and with no significant
background noise to mask the shot=2E)

    - Mark C=2E



--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 13:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Fri Aug  9 12:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] 100 ton scout ship?
In-Reply-To: <20020809030206.EC91C2793F@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020809195517.52468.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com>

I think I may have seen one of these. I saw a triangle
of lights one night,flying slowly across the sky.
However, the ship I saw appeared to be at a high
altitude. Not flying low like in the article.I
couldn't hear any engine noise so I thought it must be
very high up. If it was that high up, it had to be
enormous. Football feild would be a "conservative"
estimate. Even if it was flying low it would still be
huge. 

--- Eris Reddoch <erisred@telocity.com> wrote:
> On 08/08/02 at 03:08 PM,  Bruce Johnson
> <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
> said:
> 
> >Thing wrote:
> 
> > > 
>
>http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/black_triangle_020805.htm


=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 14:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Fri Aug  9 13:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <20809.011127.5m5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020809200101.53142.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com>

I have one reservation, I know that if I were awakened
from low berth sleep, most likely, it will be because
a substantial portion of the crew got killed, in which
case, the ship probably isn't in such great fighting
shape either. My first thought upon awakening would be
"Oh $#!+"

--- Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> wrote:
> In mail you write:
> 
> > It seemed a good deal.  You aren't first into
> battle (you aren't any 
> > more likely to get killed since the unfrozen guys
> get killed first) 
> > and you don't have to deal with boredom between
> battles.  Odds are 
> > you sign up, get frozen, and wake up with all your
> pay waiting for 
> > you.
> 
> Unless you missed the clause in the contract that
> calculates your
> "term" by the time you spend *thawed*. Mind you,
> it's legal, because
> you *do* get paid for the frozen time, though at a
> lower rate.
> 
> -- 
> Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 14:03:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 13:03:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : OK, Now What?
In-Reply-To: <p04330103b979b556d090@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028923378.5627.ajackson@ping>

David P. Summers writes:

> My understanding of the argument is that plasma guns are what 
> thermodynamics call heat engines.  Thermo requires (even at maximum 
> possible efficiency) that energies comparble to the shot fired get 
> released by the gun.  So how do you shoot w/out doing as much damage 
> to the gun (or your hand).

Huh?  I'm not sure in what way a plasma gun is a heat engine, and in any case
energies comparable to the shot do get released by the gun (travelling, not
surprisingly, out the muzzle).  The problem with a plasma gun is that you're
firing a bullet made out of ionized gas, and the normal expected behavior of
such a 'bullet' on contacting any sort of atmosphere is to spread out.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 15:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 14:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] test, ignore
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020809124700.009f1ec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3D542FEB.20406@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Douglas Berry wrote:
> At 10:08 AM 8/9/02 -0700, you wrote:
> 
>> This is a test of mime stripping
> 
> 
> Isn't that when you steal Marcel Marceau's hubcaps?
> 
> I mean, how is he going to call the cops and report it?
> 
> 
No no Email first, then we'll stripmime the rest of the Internet!

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 15:12:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 14:12:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
Message-ID: <200208092111.MKR04077@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"markc" says
>Oh, come on, Doug.  You and I both know they're louder than 
>that.

I carried an MP5SD5 for a while.  At the range, when you 
fired it, the sound of the bolt cycling seemed to dominate 
the sound picture, at least from the point of view of the 
person firing the weapon.

>From any angle, however, it's unmistakable that someone is 
operating a weapon.

On a side note, I used to call the M-16 (without a 
suppressor) the Orville Redenbacher, because at a distance, 
it sounds like popcorn in the microwave.  Never really 
sounded like a real weapon to me.

I can't imagine lasers making any noise at all, unless you 
hit someone.  And if they aren't in the visible light range 
(ideal transmission is apparently in the near infrared for 
work in Earth's atmosphere), you won't see the near miss 
either.

________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 15:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 14:35:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
In-Reply-To: <200208092111.MKR04077@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028928845.7419.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> "markc" says
> >Oh, come on, Doug.  You and I both know they're louder than 
> >that.
> 
> I carried an MP5SD5 for a while.  At the range, when you 
> fired it, the sound of the bolt cycling seemed to dominate 
> the sound picture, at least from the point of view of the 
> person firing the weapon.

This could, of course, be related to the fact that a sonic boom can only be
heard to the sides of the moving object.

> I can't imagine lasers making any noise at all, unless you 
> hit someone.  And if they aren't in the visible light range 
> (ideal transmission is apparently in the near infrared for 
> work in Earth's atmosphere), you won't see the near miss 
> either.

I doubt that; I suspect most weapons lasers are IR because chemical lasers have
a tendency to be IR lasers.  For focusing reasons you probably want a
blue-green laser, since it will require a lens about half the diameter (1/4 the
area) of a near IR laser.

In any case, a weapons laser designed for shooting at people will be visible if
there's any dust in the atmosphere; the laser will vaporize the dust (which
will release some light) and many forms of dust will then burn (producing more
light).  Probably quite hard to see during the day, but visible enough at
night.

An X-ray laser, of course, would work differently.  X-rays don't go very far in
atmosphere, but using the standard 0.1A X-ray lasers in FF&S, you can simply
create a very small lens and fire a pulsed beam, tunneling through the
atmosphere.  This isn't terribly efficient (at an estimate, it takes somewhere
between 100 and 1000 meters atmosphere to provide as much armor as a centimeter
of steel), but it's rather unaffected by most forms of obscurement, and would
be extremely visible to observers.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 16:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  9 15:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020809093112.3480.46413.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17dHmw-0002cx-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>

> I'm actually rather surprised: my original estimate was based on just
> eyeballing Tasmania's map and guessing how much of it feeds Tasmania's
> population.  It looks like my original estimate of 1 hectare per
> person was grossly high.  Based on these firmer and more authoritative
> figures, 0.2 hectares per person should suffice.

That's fascinating having last looking into all this about a decade 
ago I wrote my post on this topic w/o rechecking my data.  I got 
the numbers correct, but my memory managed to move a decimal 
place (0.1 hectares/person will barely work if you don't grow dairy 
or meat other than carp).  Man, I hate forgetting data, the faster 
someone discovers a way to upgrade ourselves the better.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com  


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 16:00:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  9 15:00:31 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <20020809142203.8049.65097.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17dHmz-0002cx-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:

> If global causality isn't preserved, then you can have effects without
> causes and a number of other things. And they basicly make hash of the
> very *idea* of there being natural laws. Which is why scientists are
> so reluctant to accept causality violations. 
> 
> Causality is *very* basic. 

Very true, but I still find is fascinating that the primary arguement 
that global causality must hold is aesthetic.  I'm not saying is 
doesn't hold, merely that the reasoning is interesting.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 16:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Fri Aug  9 15:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Do I have to Yahoo! ?
References: <177.cae8ad7.2a847ccf@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001201c23ff0$e1e6dea0$45cad63f@customer>

Thanks Jon.  I had already subcribed when I recieved the e-mail.  I =
guess that's why it was sent to me.  My addled brain thought I had to =
join the group to confirm my subcription.  Your e-mail clears things up =
for me. Thanks again

PS aurichtech got the free month, he was the 'fastest with the mostest'. =
 Besides I have support our boy in uniform.

John Scarlett
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: JFZeigler@aol.com=20
  To: tml@travellercentral.com=20
  Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 10:02 PM
  Subject: Re: [TML] Do I have to Yahoo! ?


  > Could someone tell me if it is necessary to follow these =
instructions to=20
  > subscribe to The JTAS.=20

  Hmmm.=20

  The JTAS group on Yahoo! is mostly just for announcements of new=20
  content in the real Journal of the Traveller's Aid Society. I've never =
seen=20
  it used for anything else.=20

  If you want to subscribe to JTAS itself - the actual webzine currently =

  run by Steve Jackson Games - you can go to http://jtas.sjgames.com/ .=20
  There are samples of content that you can look at before deciding=20
  whether you want to subscribe or not, and I believe you can actually=20
  subscribe using a link from that page.=20

  Enjoy.=20

  ----------=20
  Jon F. Zeigler=20
  Line Editor, GURPS Traveller=20
  jon@sjgames.com=20
  "The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."=20


--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/html
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 16:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri Aug  9 15:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How many Xboats...
In-Reply-To: <200208081636.MIN00707@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208081636.MIN00707@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <p04330105b979f034adc9@[143.232.119.186]>

At 12:36 PM -0400 8/8/02, John T. Kwon wrote:
>Roseberry asks
>>How many Xboats/Xboat tenders does one need to maintain a
>>single Xboat Route?
>
>I want to know how often X-boats leave and arrive.  If the
>boats leave on the hour

Given the 7 week time it will take the message to get there, on the 
hour seems excessive.  I would guess once a day (or less).
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 16:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Fri Aug  9 15:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] test, ignore
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020809124700.009f1ec0@mindspring.com>
References: <B9794537.690D6%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020809124700.009f1ec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020810004328.34283a79.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Listmom wrote:
> This is a test of mime stripping

I get really odd and really naughty images in my head when you say that...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 16:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Aug  9 15:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra, Zhakirov and Antiama
References: <20020809190005.13683.7858.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001201c23ff7$843c1fc0$0f5d8690@computer>

> From: Douglas Berry
> I was a bit unclear.  I meant to show that Arbellatra set the stage by
> weakening the Solomani grip on power at the court that had led to the
Civil
> War in the first place.  I imagine many nobles were stripped of their
> titles, and those titles passed to others.  She also, IMTU, shook up the
> bureaucracy and made it more effective by elevating Vilani business people
> to positions of authority, complete with the appropriate titles.

Fair enough. I guess the main thing is that compatibility with existing
canon is maintained.

I just had a look in Rim of Fire. It handles the issue very well. I would go
with their account.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 17:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 16:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
In-Reply-To: <m37kj6jfye.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20809.152101.5u4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com> writes:
>> 
>> So does SPAM survive the Rule of Man, the Long Night and into the
>> Third Imperium?
>
> It no longer is manufactures, but reserves of SPAM still exist.  The
> stuff lasts forever, you know...

Along with Velveeta ("The Food That Will Not Die" or some such according
to "Doon")

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 17:04:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 16:04:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Movies
In-Reply-To: <20020804135041.73249.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20809.152543.5e8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> OT: has anyone ever concerned the proximity of ships
> to each other in close orbit and planetary
> bombardment?  How close is too close?  Does a fleet
> turn the night sky bright with the multitude of
> invading ships?

Between the velocities involved and the weapon energies, ships should
be spaced *miles* apart. A "tight formation" is one where you can see
the other ships. 

The sort of formations shown in most TV shows and movies is workable
only for "parking orbits" (and not *too* workable there, as during the
course of an orbit the relative distances will change *considerably*)
or for the equivalent of Blue Angels type close formation stunt flying.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 19:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 18:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hey, wait a minute...
Message-ID: <200208100107.MKZ01680@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

The Sword Worlds had their first interstellar government, the 
Sacnoth Dominate, in -186, and lasting to -102, when 
rebellion broke it up.

Garda-Vilis is supposedly settled in -121 as Tanoose.

I am presuming that Vilis itself is settled before -121.

Would it be presumptuous to assume that Vilis itself was a 
colonization project put up prior to the ascendancy of the 
Sacnoth Dominate, but too far away for the Dominate to 
effectively rule?
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 19:08:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug  9 18:08:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
In-Reply-To: <232810-22002859195212613@M2W075.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <B979B575.6914A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/9/02 12:52 PM, markc@peak.org at markc@peak.org wrote:
>=20
>> A 4mm gauss round would make a high pitched *crack* audible only to
>> those near the flight path.
>=20
> With "near" probably meaning within 200 meters.  (This assumes a
> calm, clear day, across level terrain and with no significant
> background noise to mask the shot.)

Having just been shooting a suppressed M-16 less than a week ago, I can say
that even though it is quite comfortable to shoot without hearing
protection, there is a definite crack that is audible for quite some
distance.  It is, in fact, quite loud, just not painfully.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 19:19:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 18:19:07 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <20809.024856.2h6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <011801c23adc$bdd0f780$1d17bd50@martinjd> <20809.024856.2h6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020810111729.A5883@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Basicly, a nuke that is being used to convery something (styrofoam
> works!) into a plasma to push a bunch of projectiles.

You can even get pretty close to modelling this in GURPS Vehicles :)

Under Orion drives, it gives a formula for total impulse per kiloton
of thrust bomb.  Because the 'Vehicle' doesn't need to remain intact,
you can divide mass of pusher structure by a lot, say 1000.

So, you might model it as a missile with one-shot Orion propulsion and
a beehive warhead.  Unfortunately, Vehicles assigns far more total
damage to each projectile of a multiple-projectile round than is
reasonable.  In particular, every one of thousands of projectiles does
1/4 of the damage that a single solid projectile of the same mass
would do.


So Let's abandon GURPS Vehicles, and work from basic principles,
borrowing capabilities from source material as necessary and
converting back into game system terms only at the end.


Let's say you choose 1 mm ball bearings as the projectiles.  Each
kilogram of warhead thus includes about two hundred thousand of them.

Let's have a 10-kiloton thrust bomb, with a mass of about 1 kg at
TL10.  A propulsion system mass of 10 kg/kiloton doesn't sound too far
out, you do need to protect the payload from being directly vaporised.
So let's add 100 kg of styrofoam or whatever, and 100 kg of ball
bearings.

Assume say 10% efficiency of converting detonation energy to kinetic
energy of payload in the desired direction, for a final payload speed
of 200 km/s.

Now, there are about 20 million probably partly-melted and definitely
misshapen ball bearings travelling at 200 km/s, in say a 1:10 cone.
At a range of 1000 km, there's one ball bearing per 1600 m^2, each
with 1000 MJ of kinetic energy.


Converting back into G:Traveller game terms, the "to-hit" roll is
pretty closely modelled by Size + RoF - Range, where RoF is in this
case the number of ball bearings.  For example, 1 million ball
bearings is +33, and 20 million is +37.  Each two points of success
indicates a doubling of the number of hits.  Damage from each hit is
about 6d x 45, using the Vehicles missile impact damage with a 1 mm
missile travelling at 220,000 yards per second.  Basic cost is about
12 kCr per mine.

There, that doesn't look too shabby.  A weapon for lightly-armoured
ships to fear out to a few thousand kilometres range, and devastating
to them within a few hundred kilometres.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 19:30:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  9 18:30:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Uthe
Message-ID: <12e.15a72e95.2a85c63e@aol.com>

Les writes:

>Where can I find UWP stats for the Uthe subsector? Canon if possible.

That would be in Foreven Sector? Canon for the entire sector comprises one 
set, out of many, of subsector names, world *positions* and about seven world 
UWPs. That's it. Foreven was set aside (other than the above) as "not to be 
officially developed" by GDW late in the MT days.  The handfull of official 
bits were published in Imperiallines #1. Some details beyond this can be 
found in the CT adventures in that sector.

That said, there are a couple fan write-ups out on the net...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 19:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 18:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
Message-ID: <200208100133.MLB00132@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>Let's have a 10-kiloton thrust bomb, with a mass of about 1 
>kg at TL10.  A propulsion system mass of 10 kg/kiloton 
>doesn't sound too far out, you do need to protect the 
>payload from being directly vaporised.
>So let's add 100 kg of styrofoam or whatever, and 100 kg of 
>ball bearings.

First thought: I don't believe 100kg would do it.

>Now, there are about 20 million probably partly-melted and 
>definitely misshapen ball bearings travelling at 200 km/s, 
>in say a 1:10 cone.
>At a range of 1000 km, there's one ball bearing per 1600 
>m^2, each with 1000 MJ of kinetic energy.

This is a bit misleading.  A modern APFSDS penetrator weighs 
around 15 kg, and has a kinetic energy of around 9 MJ.  It is 
designed to unleash its energy inside the target - i.e., it 
has to hold together long enough to penetrate the hull.  
Because the penetrator holds together long enough to spear 
through the hull, it can actually do damage.

These ball bearings sound like micrometeoroids.  Put up a 
Whipple bumper (a thin layer of aluminum, spaced several 
inches away from the main hull), and they'll be vaporized on 
contact with the outer layer, and the energy will be 
harmlessly dissipated, even if it is 1000 MJ.

________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 19:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 18:35:02 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <001a01c23f4b$b6502d00$7400a8c0@matt> <20020809193011.F3949@freeman.little-possums.net> <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt>
Message-ID: <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net>

Matthew Bond wrote:
> Actually I was referring to the immediately prior post in the tread,
> by Flykiller@aol.com...

But Flykiller's post refers specifically to a post saying that planets
fail due to loss of trade, not warfare, damage, or any TNE-specific
features.  To wit:

  >If planets are so self sufficient, then why does TNE describe planets
  >failing because they were cut off from interstellar trade?

The answer is that TNE does *not* describe planets failing because
they were cut off from interstellar trade.

TNE describes planets failing because they have been torn by sabotage,
subversion by hostile life-forms, warfare, looting, and numerous other
factors not particularly related to loss of trade.  It is hence
irrelevant to the preceding discussion.


> Your arguement was that irrespective of trade all planets can
> (perhaps even 'must') be self sufficient.

No, my argument was that trade levels for high-pop worlds are known to
be so low that there can not be any short-term external dependence on
trade.

Longer-term dependence on a scale of centuries may be a possibility,
but I personally think it far more likely that if trade was cut, it
would not take that long to develop local resources to cover or avoid
the very small shortfall.


> Thats all I'm saying... given sufficient stress to the system
> (irrespective of which particular Traveller setting you use), you
> can Fail any planet that isn't capable of supporting life without
> TL9+ intervention.

That's rather a guarded and qualified statement.  I'd go further and
say that given sufficient stress to the system, you can Fail any
planet at all!

But it won't be due to lack of trade, which was the contention of the
original post.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 19:38:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 18:38:09 2002
Subject: [TML] settlement date of Vilis
Message-ID: <200208100137.MLB00305@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I'm putting the settlement date of Vilis down as -240, some 
time before the Sacnoth Dominate, and the colonists leaving 
from Gungnir.

Any thoughts?
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 19:40:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 18:40:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <3D540E41.1040509@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D53003A.1070102@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020809190742.B3949@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D540E41.1040509@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020810113922.D5883@freeman.little-possums.net>

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> The fact that they all share remarkable similarities in background
> story is mere coincidence ;-)

Sort of makes a shambles of the acronym "OTU" though :(


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 20:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Fri Aug  9 19:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Was there really a Nung River in Indochina? Was: Uthe
In-Reply-To: <12e.15a72e95.2a85c63e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020809211618.00a919f0@minn.net>

At 09:28 PM 8/9/2002 EDT, GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:
>Les writes:
>
>>Where can I find UWP stats for the Uthe subsector? Canon if possible.
>
>That would be in Foreven Sector? Canon for the entire sector comprises one 
>set, out of many, of subsector names, world *positions* and about seven
world 
>UWPs. That's it. Foreven was set aside (other than the above) as "not to be 
>officially developed" by GDW late in the MT days.  The handfull of official 
>bits were published in Imperiallines #1. Some details beyond this can be 
>found in the CT adventures in that sector.

Sorry, I believe that you are incorrect.

If I recall correctly the Foreven sector is spinward of the Spinward
Marches. The Uthe subsector is shown in Supplement 3 as being immediately
coreward of the Regina subsector. 

I need the data for my demented OTU rewrite of Coppola's demented remake of
The Wizard of Oz.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 20:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  9 19:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
Message-ID: <20020810004141.99222.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

>The also ran into a wild card: Norris.  You can't predict an 
>unexpected enemy commander that is a bloody genius and has figured
>out your plan.  I always wondered if Norris' branch of Naval
>Intelligence hadn't actually learned bits and pieces of the Zhodani
>plan.

and then failed to disclose those bits and pieces to Sector Admiral
Santanocheev, to destroy his credibility before the Emperor, and to
allow the advance of other members of the INI cabal ... how paranoid
are we?

>The Zho's over-reached themselves, in my opinion.  They didn't 
>properly understand the strength of the Imperium's "defense in
>depth" concept, nor the tenacity of local forces.

Shtaliajtlas was an idiot, actually, who had not run enough
simulations to know how to get and hold 300 points before the
Imperium could react and start rolling the Zhodanis back.  

--Glenn


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 20:43:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Aug  9 19:43:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Gencon Details?
Message-ID: <3D547C9B.5C463567@mail.cswnet.com>

Anyone with details on whats going on at Gencon?

[sniffle] I wish I was there. [out right crying]

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 20:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 19:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <200208100133.MLB00132@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208100133.MLB00132@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020810124558.E5883@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> First thought: I don't believe 100kg would do it.

I'm assuming GTL 10-12 (TTL C-F), not current-day.  I thought I'd give
the concept the benefit of the doubt.


> These ball bearings sound like micrometeoroids.

Yes.  Only about ten times faster, roughly five times as dense, and at
least a few thousand times the volume.  They could be considered "like
micrometeroids" in the same sense that an APFSDS penetrator could be
considered "like a piece of bird shot".

I did totally miscalculate their energy though; it is really 100 kJ.
Yes, that's pathetic, and yet another strike against GURPS Vehicles
that it gives them a damage of 6d x 45.  You still want a fairly good
hull material though.

Suppose the aluminium layer is 3 mm thick (which seems generous enough
for a Whipple bumper).  The speed of the projectile is about 20 times
the speed of sound in aluminium, and hence the mass of aluminium that
absorbs energy works out to at most 7 milligrams.

It actually works out much less still, because at 200 km/s there is a
very good chance that the nuclei of the projectile atoms pass through
the spaces between the aluminium nuclei with greatly reduced
deflection.  The projectile should be more accurately modelled as a
coherent particle pulse than a solid object when considering the
terminal ballistics.  But assume that doesn't really happen.

Instead of a projectile travelling at 200 km/s, after the bumper
you're left with a jet of plasma at 10 million kelvin travelling at an
average speed of more than 80 km/s.  That hits your bare hull, still
carrying most of its original energy.  Not good.


Obviously, if the energy really was 1000 MJ then the bumper would be
utterly useless.  Such a bumper is designed to stop much smaller and
slower projectiles with kinetic energies of less than a 1 J that might
otherwise cause erosion.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 21:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 20:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1028582658.5758.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20809.200112.4y7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Steven Hudson writes:
>> 
>>   "Fighter Division: ... Fighters are used for long range
>> patrols and recon within a system, allows (sic) the carrier
>> advanced warning of enemy ... In addition, the fighters are
>> expected to hold the screen against enemy vessels until the
>> Riders are ready to begin* a battle".
>
> Two problems:
>
> 1)  In space, it tends to be easier to simply tack a great big sensor on the
> main ship.

Except that a synethic aperture sensor using fighters well away from
the ship will *always* have better resolution than any array the ship
can carry because resolution depends on *width* of the sensor.

The shipboard sensor may have higher *sensitivity* because sensitivity
depends on surface area of the sensor (or sensors in the case of
multi-element arrays). 

The higher resolution is useful in getting distance and location of
enemy ships. Which makes for better targetting solutions.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 21:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 20:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
Message-ID: <200208100314.MLD01626@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>I'm assuming GTL 10-12 (TTL C-F), not current-day.  I 
>thought I'd give the concept the benefit of the doubt.

I seem to recall that bumper material is just a straight heat 
of vaporization kind of thing.  Distance from blast, yield, 
etc.  Not that a nuclear shotgun hasn't been invented.  They 
were evidently considered for SDI, but that part of the OTA 
report is still classified.


>Yes.  Only about ten times faster, roughly five times as 
>dense, and at least a few thousand times the volume.  

NASA apparently tests using a steel 3mm projectile at 7km/sec.

>You still want a fairly good hull material though.

Apparently the reason that multilayered, thin, spaced bumpers 
do better than solid armor at protecting against impact that 
turns a projectile into plasma is that solid armor tends to 
confine the plasma - the penetration is actually enhanced.  
With a space between each layer, the plasma has (albeit 
nanoseconds) time to expand after passing through successive 
layers.  And even a few nanoseconds of expansion is better 
than none at all.

>It actually works out much less still, because at 200 km/s 
>there is a very good chance that the nuclei of the 
>projectile atoms pass through the spaces between the 
>aluminium nuclei with greatly reduced
>deflection.  

I don't see 200km/sec as a velocity range where we would get 
these kinds of effects.  Maybe at relativistic velocities.

>Instead of a projectile travelling at 200 km/s, after the 
>bumper you're left with a jet of plasma at 10 million kelvin 
>travelling at an average speed of more than 80 km/s.  

But it's not an inline jet, as it would largely remain if it 
hit solid armor plate with decent thickness.  So now there's 
some jet, and some of the energy is dissipating as a 
hemispherical shock front of plasma.

>That hits your bare hull, still carrying most of its 
>original energy.  Not good.

Yes, but spread over a slightly wider area.  And if I have 
multiple layers, the layers get chewed up, but the ship is 
unharmed.  Of course, a shotgun effect like this could 
effectively clean off one side of the ship - the bumpers 
could be swept away, along with any exposed antennae, 
turrets, etc.  Perhaps even maneuver thrusters if the hit 
came from behind.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 21:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Fri Aug  9 20:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
Message-ID: <000001c2401f$59029320$33c3d63f@customer>

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> >The fact that they all share remarkable similarities in background
> >story is mere coincidence ;-)

Tim Little wrote:
>Sort of makes a shambles of the acronym "OTU" though :(

The fact is that the OTU as it stands is contradictory, inconsistent and, at
times, unworkable.
It's a mish-mash put together by dozens of different people with no apparent
continuity control.

There doesn't appear to have been any effort to make the various rules sets
mesh together either.

John Scarlett




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 21:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Aug  9 20:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
Message-ID: <F127V8MoyGnyxrDyfbX00007185@hotmail.com>

From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

     "I suggest constant suggestions that the young hellion requires an
immediate bath."


Mr. Berry,

     Thank you for the additional ammunition sir!  My threats of "I'll sell 
you for medical experiments" and "I'll mail you to the undertaker" have lost 
their luster.

     "But can be considered a success.  There have been no Imperial
attempts to establish colonies in Zhodani space for 700 years."

     Oh yes, a rousing success.  The buffer zone intended circa 500 hasn't 
been completed yet, but there are no Imperial colonies, client states, or 
whatever in Zhodani space.  The buffer zone requirement may simply be a 
"leftover" goal from the original strategy sessions in the 500's.  The Zhos 
have already achieved the benefits a buffer zone would give them, but not 
the actual buffer zone itself.

     "The also ran into a wild card: Norris.  You can't predict an
unexpected enemy commander that is a bloody genius and has figured out your 
plan.  I always wondered if Norris' branch of Naval Intelligence hadn't 
actually learned bits and pieces of the Zhodani plan."

     True.  The Imperium had a few geniuses during that war.  Add to the 
total, the SDB flotilla commander who scattered his forces to continually 
contest the Zho's supply line for the Efate siege rather than fight to the 
death.  Or the sophont who led the 212th against the Swords during the war's 
latter stages, smashing the Sacnoth fleet and occupying the good chunk of 
the Confederation in 90 days is nothing to sneeze at.  Or the sophont who 
defended Rhylanor, he/she/it might have known about a prospective Zho 
offensive but they still beat it.

     "The Zho's over-reached themselves, in my opinion.  They didn't
properly understand the strength of the Imperium's "defense in depth" 
concept, nor the tenacity of local forces."

     The Zho plan may have worked against the old Imperial "crust defense" 
policy.  The "islands of resistance" policy threw the Zhos a nasty curve, 
they completely failed to pick up IN paradigm shift despite the TNS news 
briefs.  As victors of the last 3 of 4 wars, the Zhos planned and fought the 
LAST frontier war.  As losers of the last 3 of 4 wars, the Imperials 
(finally) planned and fought the NEXT frontier war.  That little morality 
play has occurred too many times in human history not to be recognized.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 21:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Aug  9 20:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
In-Reply-To: <000001c2401f$59029320$33c3d63f@customer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020809235319.02899e68@192.168.0.1>

At 11:36 PM 8/9/2002 -0400, John Scarlett wrote:
>Bruce Johnson wrote:
> > >The fact that they all share remarkable similarities in background
> > >story is mere coincidence ;-)
>Tim Little wrote:
> >Sort of makes a shambles of the acronym "OTU" though :(
>The fact is that the OTU as it stands is contradictory, inconsistent and, at
>times, unworkable.
>It's a mish-mash put together by dozens of different people with no apparent
>continuity control.

Well, some...but even works by single authors show inconsistencies.
I'm sure folks in the list can give multiple examples in popular fiction.

>There doesn't appear to have been any effort to make the various rules sets
>mesh together either.

Hmmmm....and the business model for making GT mech to CT rules?



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 22:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Aug  9 21:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
Message-ID: <F50zbAUfKRfcjcMzfoV000000cd@hotmail.com>

From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

     "I heartily endorse your basic analysis,..."

Mr. Goffin,

     Please see a mental health professional as soon as possible.  While 
Whipsnade's Syndrome is terminal, the final stages may be delayed long 
enough to allow the sufferers a nearly normal life.  The usual prescription 
involves a daily dose of alcohol.

     "... which must be further evidence for the common belief that great 
minds think alike -- er, I mean, that Traveller players need to get a life 
-- no wait a bit..."

     Yes, I do need to get a life.

     "Anyway, if the boardgame of Fifth Frontier War is a good 
simulation,..."

     It's the ONLY simulation we have! (shudder)

     "So the Jewells would not have to be ground down by planetary sieges.  
Jewell itself is always a battle, but the Mongo National Guard will flee in 
terror after some bombing, and Esalin, Emerald, and Ruby have no defense 
forces to speak of (those TL 8 motorized infantry on Esalin are more 
terrified that the MNG, but can't flee as fast).  Lysen and Grant likewise 
need only to be occupied."

     Your are, of course, correct sir.  Jewel may require a siege, but the 
Jewels do not.

     "Begin processing the captives!"

     Hi, I'm Larsen and I'm a deadhead.
     Hi, Larsen!  Give us back our wristwatches!



     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 22:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 21:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <200208091101.MJX01284@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20809.201104.3R7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson
>>Causality is *very* basic. 
>
> Wheeler has shown that there is no proof that causality is a 
> requirement of this universe as a basic law.  It makes a nice 
> thought, but by no means is it a requirement.
>
> The two-slit experiment, played out over interstellar 
> distances, or even across a tabletop in a lab, was shown in 
> 1987 to indicate that causality is violated on a regular 
> basis.

Excuse me? Care to detail exactly *how* it violates causality?

It may violate *local* causality. But *global* causality is a very
different kettle of fish.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 22:11:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 21:11:15 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <200208091312.MKB02981@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20809.201248.7O9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> "Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance" says
>>Not quite. If I understand Wheeler correctly, causality is 
>>not violated as such (cause still precedes effect). Its just 
>>cause is not determined until the effect is observed.
>
> the problem is that the nature of the observation will force 
> a photon to the left or the right - an observation that is 
> taken perhaps a billion years after the photon departed. 

So? The effect (left or right) still *has* a cause (the observation). 

So *global* causality is upheld. Local isn't.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 22:11:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 21:11:31 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <E17dHmz-0002cx-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20809.201407.9P9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
>
>> If global causality isn't preserved, then you can have effects without
>> causes and a number of other things. And they basicly make hash of the
>> very *idea* of there being natural laws. Which is why scientists are
>> so reluctant to accept causality violations. 
>> 
>> Causality is *very* basic. 
>
> Very true, but I still find is fascinating that the primary arguement 
> that global causality must hold is aesthetic.  I'm not saying is 
> doesn't hold, merely that the reasoning is interesting.

Well, in the end it boils down to "without global causality 'reasoning'
is merely wishful thinking". 

Because without global causality, it's not possible to draw
conclusions. "If A then B" doesn't hold. And without that, everything
else falls apart.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 22:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Fri Aug  9 21:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Obeyery of Stave
In-Reply-To: <20020809195517.52468.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPCEHHEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

I am currently in the process of re-doing my entire web site.  What I was
wondering is if anyone can take a look at what I have done with the Stave
system (part of the Traveller Landgrab) and the Obeyery who were mentioned
in BTC, and suggest anything more they would like to see. I will probably
expand the details of the other two systems which are only partly completed,
at the same time.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 23:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 22:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller - more
In-Reply-To: <d1.1c6715c7.2a8098f4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20809.212402.6L7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>  >Actually, given some of the other tech, the weapons could be fusion
>  >warheads that don't *need* a fission trigger.
>
> I see.  Then (ignoring the fact that this is fantasy technology) I suppose 
> that anyone with access to a fusion plant of any size will have access to a 
> fusion "nuke" (for lack of another word)?
>
> Book 4 states that the PGMP-13 is powered by a fusion reactor.  I don't 
> suppose this would be significantly larger than that on a missile, so how 
> much modification would be needed to turn it into a bomb?

That we can't say. But it'd be rather like turning a propane torch into
a bomb. Doable, but messy.

Fusion doesn't have "critical mass" (unless you are talking about star
sized masses). So you have to do *something* to the fusion fuel to make
it fuse *fast*, and in quantity. This requires not mere high temps and
pressures, but *something* (inertia, pressure, whatever) to keep the
fuel in the reaction area long enough to react.

Maybe gravitics? 

Fusion reactors are even harder to make go "boom" than fission
reactors. And even fission reactors don't explode easily. They don't do
*nuclear* explosions at all unless you pull all the fuel, repack it and
use a *lot* of explosives.

Even so, anything that can make an FGMP or air raft fusion plant work,
could probably make a "pure" fusion bomob that wasn't overly huge. Say
the size of an early atomic bomb. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 00:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 23:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <200208100314.MLD01626@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208100314.MLD01626@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020810155906.A6285@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> I seem to recall that bumper material is just a straight heat 
> of vaporization kind of thing.  Distance from blast, yield, 
> etc.

Yeah, I'm assuming much better materials at TL 12 than here at TL 7.


> NASA apparently tests using a steel 3mm projectile at 7km/sec.

That's a very big "micro"meteoroid!  It's travelling a lot slower
though, so that probably makes up for it.


> With a space between each layer, the plasma has (albeit 
> nanoseconds) time to expand after passing through successive 
> layers.

Sure -- at the expense of more cost and hugely more volume.


> I don't see 200km/sec as a velocity range where we would get these
> kinds of effects.  Maybe at relativistic velocities.

200 km/s *is* starting to get into relativisitic velocities; it is
approaching 0.1% of c.

Work it out yourself though.  An iron nucleus at 200 km/s has a
kinetic energy of 12 keV.  That's a couple of orders of magnitude more
than the binding energy of its electrons, so chemical effects are not
a significant factor.  The nuclei *are* essentially independent
particles.

It so happens that a few millimetres of aluminium is enough to
thermalise the nuclei, and the aluminium will become a significant
part of the resulting plasma.


> But it's not an inline jet, as it would largely remain if it 
> hit solid armor plate with decent thickness.  So now there's 
> some jet, and some of the energy is dissipating as a 
> hemispherical shock front of plasma.

Less than 1/4 of the energy dissipates sideways in this case.  Yes,
multiple layers will do a much better job.  Most of the energy will be
absorbed by the 3rd or 4th layer.


> Of course, a shotgun effect like this could effectively clean off
> one side of the ship

Worse than that: the bumper layers rely for their effectiveness on
extremely sparse impacts.  The plasma from one impact destroys a much
larger region of the layers than the size of the projectile.  For
example, the impact in question would probably render 4-5 layers
ineffective over a region 20-50 cm via blast effects originating at
about layer 3 warping the structure around it.

If another projectile hits nearby, there will be much less protection.
There is a good chance that it would directly hit the hull.


You should also remember how much space these layers take up.  For a
400 dton ship, each layer consumes at least 10 dtons or so.  Since
they're no better protection than solid armour against anything bigger
than a centimetre or so at starship combat speeds (or any starship
weapons), it seems like a pretty poor deal to me.

I don't think Traveller ships would bother with spaced armour, since
their costs are so heavily volume-dependent.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 00:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Aug  9 23:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <20020810155906.A6285@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHIEOIILAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> I seem to recall that bumper material is just a straight heat 
> of vaporization kind of thing.  Distance from blast, yield, 
> etc.

Yeah, I'm assuming much better materials at TL 12 than here at TL 7.


> NASA apparently tests using a steel 3mm projectile at 7km/sec.

That's a very big "micro"meteoroid!  It's travelling a lot slower
though, so that probably makes up for it.


> With a space between each layer, the plasma has (albeit 
> nanoseconds) time to expand after passing through successive 
> layers.

Sure -- at the expense of more cost and hugely more volume.


> I don't see 200km/sec as a velocity range where we would get these
> kinds of effects.  Maybe at relativistic velocities.

200 km/s *is* starting to get into relativisitic velocities; it is
approaching 0.1% of c.

Work it out yourself though.  An iron nucleus at 200 km/s has a
kinetic energy of 12 keV.  That's a couple of orders of magnitude more
than the binding energy of its electrons, so chemical effects are not
a significant factor.  The nuclei *are* essentially independent
particles.

It so happens that a few millimetres of aluminium is enough to
thermalise the nuclei, and the aluminium will become a significant
part of the resulting plasma.


> But it's not an inline jet, as it would largely remain if it 
> hit solid armor plate with decent thickness.  So now there's 
> some jet, and some of the energy is dissipating as a 
> hemispherical shock front of plasma.

Less than 1/4 of the energy dissipates sideways in this case.  Yes,
multiple layers will do a much better job.  Most of the energy will be
absorbed by the 3rd or 4th layer.


> Of course, a shotgun effect like this could effectively clean off
> one side of the ship

Worse than that: the bumper layers rely for their effectiveness on
extremely sparse impacts.  The plasma from one impact destroys a much
larger region of the layers than the size of the projectile.  For
example, the impact in question would probably render 4-5 layers
ineffective over a region 20-50 cm via blast effects originating at
about layer 3 warping the structure around it.

If another projectile hits nearby, there will be much less protection.
There is a good chance that it would directly hit the hull.


You should also remember how much space these layers take up.  For a
400 dton ship, each layer consumes at least 10 dtons or so.  Since
they're no better protection than solid armour against anything bigger
than a centimetre or so at starship combat speeds (or any starship
weapons), it seems like a pretty poor deal to me.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Can't they just use TL 15 strip mine?

jml
Of course he's a folk singer
he sounds like he's got terminal mumps


I don't think Traveller ships would bother with spaced armour, since
their costs are so heavily volume-dependent.


- Tim
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 00:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  9 23:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] test, ignore
Message-ID: <5ad2d65abf6f.5abf6f5ad2d6@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Date: Friday, August 9, 2002 8:08 pm
Subject: [TML] test, ignore

> This is a test of mime stripping

"Don't look, Ethel!" ;-)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 00:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  9 23:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] test3, ignore
Message-ID: <5acc125ad03b.5ad03b5acc12@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Date: Friday, August 9, 2002 8:33 pm
Subject: [TML] test3, ignore

> Final MIME test

Must be working.  I didn't hear a thing. ;-)

OTOH, I _did_ hear Tom Bodett's voice in my mind's ear....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 00:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri Aug  9 23:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Uthe
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020809211618.00a919f0@minn.net>
Message-ID: <20020810065021.7C9C72793A@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/09/02 at 09:16 PM,  Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net> said:

>At 09:28 PM 8/9/2002 EDT, GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:
>>Les writes:
>>
>>>Where can I find UWP stats for the Uthe subsector? Canon if possible.

>>That would be in Foreven Sector? Canon for the entire sector comprises one 
>>set, out of many, of subsector names, world *positions* and about seven
>world 
>>UWPs. That's it. Foreven was set aside (other than the above) as "not to be 
>>officially developed" by GDW late in the MT days.  The handfull of official 
>>bits were published in Imperiallines #1. Some details beyond this can be 
>>found in the CT adventures in that sector.

>Sorry, I believe that you are incorrect.

>If I recall correctly the Foreven sector is spinward of the Spinward
>Marches. The Uthe subsector is shown in Supplement 3 as being
>immediately coreward of the Regina subsector. 

Gvurrdon Sector/Subsector O -- Uthe

 I go to <http://zho.bekka.com/data/CLASSIC/> for my OTU data needs.
<g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 01:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat Aug 10 00:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020809081646.009f77c0@mindspring.com>
References: <F24qs1wP7vvqgqGTwgT0000593c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D556531.21647.F79DE@localhost>

On 9 Aug 2002 at 8:27, Douglas Berry wrote:

> >     The Zho's three main offensives fit this idea neatly.  First, they 
> > "pin down" the Jewels.  Second, a sickle stroke through the Efate region 
> > to cut the Jewels off.  Third, a deep strike at Rhylanor to gain the 
> > war's supreme bargaining chip.
> >     If all had gone well, the Jewels would be slowly ground down by a 
> > series of planetary seiges, cutoff from the rest of the Imperium by Zho 
> > forces in the Efate region, and eventually abandoned by the Imperium at 
> > the negotiation table in return for the Zhodani evacuation of Rhylanor.
> >     Of course, no plan survives contact with the enemy, but the 
> > Consulate's hubris can be forgiven.  After all, they had won every 
> > Frontier War prior to the Fifth.  To paraphrase Moltke, the Consulate 
> > planned well, but didn't quite plan enough.
> 
> The also ran into a wild card: Norris.  You can't predict an unexpected 
> enemy commander that is a bloody genius and has figured out your plan.  I 
> always wondered if Norris' branch of Naval Intelligence hadn't actually 
> learned bits and pieces of the Zhodani plan.
> 
> The Zho's over-reached themselves, in my opinion.  They didn't properly 
> understand the strength of the Imperium's "defense in depth" concept, nor 
> the tenacity of local forces.

The latter is perhaps understandable, as in previous wars they didn't 
seem to have much trouble 'persuading' systems to leave the Imperium. 
The time between the Third Frontier War and the 4th & 5th wars seems to 
have been sufficient for the Spinward Marches to become firmly 
integrated into the 3I at a fundmental, emotional level.

As for lack of understanding of the 'defence in depth' - IIRC the rider 
'Rons didn't make too good a showing in the 4th War, so they may have 
underestimeted their effectiveness, even though the rapid-reaction role 
is probably the strongest defensive role for the rider component of a 
fleet.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 01:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 10 00:37:03 2002
Subject: Armor Schemes (was: Re: [TML] mines)
Message-ID: <5b9b0f5ba833.5ba8335b9b0f@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
Date: Saturday, August 10, 2002 8:59 am
Subject: Re: [TML] mines

<<snip>> 
> 
> You should also remember how much space these layers take up.  For a
> 400 dton ship, each layer consumes at least 10 dtons or so.  Since
> they're no better protection than solid armour against anything bigger
> than a centimetre or so at starship combat speeds (or any starship
> weapons), it seems like a pretty poor deal to me.
> 
> I don't think Traveller ships would bother with spaced armour, since
> their costs are so heavily volume-dependent.

What I've done on some of my FF&S2 designs is place additional armor on 
certain components, such as the power plant and drive sections.  Thus, 
while a shot may penetrate the main hull armor, it often doesn't have 
the energy left to pepentrate the additional armor to damage the 
component within.  _Montana_ takes advantage of this, as does Rob Day's 
IW-era _Vanguard_ ship design.

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Rampart/2555/vanguard.htm



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 01:43:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Sat Aug 10 00:43:10 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
Message-ID: <000001c2403c$3dbce440$8bdad63f@customer>

John Scarlett wrote:
 Mark Urbin responds:
> >The fact is that the OTU as it stands is contradictory, inconsistent and,
at
> >times, unworkable.
> >It's a mish-mash put together by dozens of different people with no
apparent
> >continuity control.
>
> Well, some...but even works by single authors show inconsistencies.
> I'm sure folks in the list can give multiple examples in popular fiction.
>
> >There doesn't appear to have been any effort to make the various rules
sets
> >mesh together either.
>
> Hmmmm....and the business model for making GT mesh to CT rules?

Well, I guess the headmaster caught me making broad, unsupported statements
again. ;-)  But seriously, communication isn't my strong suit.  If I speak
more than 20 words a day to someone other than myself, or the cats and dogs,
I'm being effusive.  The fact that I can type more words than I'll ever
speak in my lifetime, doesn't change the fact that I'm not a good
communicator.

So, my above statements don't accurately reflect the point that I was trying
to make.  When I talk about the rules sets not meshing, I mean that how
things work is different from rules set to rules set so that your not able
to do some things in one rules set that you could with another rules set.
This doesn't allow for much meaningful discussion of how things work between
people who are using different rules sets.

As for the OTU, I was blissfully happy with it until I joined the TML.  It's
the various threads on 'How This doesn't work' and 'How does That really
work?' that have led me to the conclusion that there's something not quite
right with the OTU.

Frankly I don't know why I'm making such a fuss.  I've always believed that
I should do what I want IMTU and I should let everybody else do what they
want in their TU's.  The OTU is vague enough to allow for many different
interpretations.  Maybe it was designed to be that way on purpose.

John Scarlett




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 01:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 10 00:49:02 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
 CHALLENGE)
Message-ID: <5b2a125b101f.5b101f5b2a12@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
Date: Saturday, August 10, 2002 4:34 am
Subject: Re: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in 
traveller CHALLENGE)

<<snip>>
> 
>  >If planets are so self sufficient, then why does TNE describe 
> planets  >failing because they were cut off from interstellar trade?
> 
> The answer is that TNE does *not* describe planets failing because
> they were cut off from interstellar trade.
> 
> TNE describes planets failing because they have been torn by sabotage,
> subversion by hostile life-forms, warfare, looting, and numerous other
> factors not particularly related to loss of trade.  It is hence
> irrelevant to the preceding discussion.

My take would be that loss of trade became a factor in causing failure 
on worlds that depended on off-world life support tech to maintain 
habitability.  Under normal circumstances, they would be viable for 
quite some time (probably centuries) before a loss of trade would 
deplete spare parts to the point that life support fails.  With the 
destruction wrought by Black War (let alone Virus), a loss of trade 
means that spare parts used to repair war-damaged systems can't be 
replaced, leading to the acceleration of life support failure.

<<snip>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 02:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug 10 01:09:02 2002
Subject: Armor Schemes (was: Re: [TML] mines)
In-Reply-To: <5b9b0f5ba833.5ba8335b9b0f@us.army.mil>
References: <5b9b0f5ba833.5ba8335b9b0f@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <20020810180812.B6285@freeman.little-possums.net>

john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:
> What I've done on some of my FF&S2 designs is place additional armor on 
> certain components, such as the power plant and drive sections.

Yes, that works in GURPS Vehicles too.  However, it usually works out
cheaper and more reliable to just have multiple drives and power
plants, so that loss of one or two merely reduces capacity somewhat.

There is one major exception: the jump coils.  They are compact, vital
to mobility, and very expensive.  You should definitely armour them
separately if you expect to see combat.  The main bridge is another
reasonable candidate.  It is not too hard to put DR 30000 on each
without impacting on performance in other ways.

It is not clear to me whether you can have internal meson screens.  If
you can, then a DR 60000 screen should probably be put in as well.

Of course, neither is going to do much against a standard missile
doing 6d x 4000 (5).  Half a million points of armour is really just
getting silly (and infeasible).  :/


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 02:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug 10 01:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <20809.200112.4y7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <ML-2.3.1028582658.5758.ajackson@ping> <20809.200112.4y7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020810185016.C6285@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Except that a synethic aperture sensor using fighters well away from
> the ship will *always* have better resolution than any array the
> ship can carry because resolution depends on *width* of the sensor.

Yes, I've always thought that ships's sensors should consist at least
partly of externally deployed units.  Putting those units on fighters
seems a little odd, though.  Surely you want them to be unmanned for
an absolute minimum of uncontrolled vibration and other bad
influences.

If you're doing visible interferometry, then half a micrometre of
uncompensated motion means uselessness.  Far-IR work is almost as bad,
and requires low thermal noise as well.  Shorter wavelengths don't
need external interferometry, since a single ship can theoretically
obtain all the resolution it would want from its own hull-mounted
detectors.

I envisage most detection taking place via far IR (heat radiation),
optionally followed by ladar tracking.  A synthetic aperture of a
kilometre or so diameter should give resolution at million kilometre
range (60 G:Traveller hexes) of about 10 metres in passive IR, without
being too cumbersome in the number and positioning of external
elements.

Naturally, it makes no sense to have resolution finer than the size of
region from which you can pick up a single photon per unit of time in
which you are interested.  Nor does it make sense to have your
external stations so far out that you can't constantly monitor their
position to within half a wavelength.  These factors will limit the
size of any synthetic aperture array.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 04:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sat Aug 10 03:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <200208091312.MKB02981@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D558F56.25375.B1AA6F1@localhost>

On 9 Aug 2002, at 9:12, John T. Kwon wrote:

> the problem is that the nature of the observation will force 
> a photon to the left or the right - an observation that is 
> taken perhaps a billion years after the photon departed. 

Working from my laymans knowledge of quantum mechanics, I believe 
there is no violation of causality here. Several billion years ago the photon 
leaves the quasar, it then travels all potential paths to the observer in 
variant probabilities, the photon then arrives at earth where the act of 
observeration selects which of the variant probabilities becomes part of 
reality. See, no violation of causality (a splitting headache maybe, but no 
violation of causality)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 04:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 03:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
In-Reply-To: <OFBA2D763C.F2E139E2-ONCA256C0E.000A4049@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20810.001307.7E6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I'd been thinking about this for a while, too. A copyright question that I 
> don't know the answer to is, "Is it 'fair use' if I put a Jesse picture on 
> ONE T-Shirt for my own use?"

Actually, given *some* of us in this group, an "I <heart> HE" shirt
like Ditzie's might do well, and could be sold to the mainstream.

Which reminds me:

http://jokeworm.com/AToons/AT280.jpg

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 04:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 03:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <3d51707a.2567266@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20810.031716.6F9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng) writes:
>
>>Thanks.  Anybody can provide with how the Royal Navy does it?  Has the =
> USN
>>changed anything from the afore-explained procedure?=20
>
> I always liked David Weber's change of command ceremonies in the Honor
> Harrington books, but I don't know whether they're based on genuine
> Napoleonic-era Royal Navy practice or just something DW made up...
>
> (in brief, the new Captain is welcomed on board the ship as a visiting
> senior officer, is escorted to the bridge, makes an all-hands
> announcement in which (s)he reads aloud the written orders from the
> Admiralty directing him/her "To proceed aboard Her Majesty's Starship
> <Foo>, there to take upon yourself the duties and responsibilities of
> commanding officer in the service of the Crown"; after which the new
> Captain formally tells the previous (acting) commander "I assume
> command".)

C.S. Forester had Horatio Hornblower doing the same thing, so it's
*probably* authentic.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 05:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith Mormon minion of Arioch)
Date: Sat Aug 10 04:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
References: <000001c2401f$59029320$33c3d63f@customer>
Message-ID: <010001c2405d$3515c2f0$6f7ba8c0@kenneith93j41k>

Well just go by what the little black books say and you will be happy, oh no
wait that is my solution
:)
ken

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comics
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you
http://www.geocities.com/J_Elric_Smith/Index.html
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Scarlett" <jlscarlett@earthlink.net>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 11:36 PM
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.


> Bruce Johnson wrote:
> > >The fact that they all share remarkable similarities in background
> > >story is mere coincidence ;-)
>
> Tim Little wrote:
> >Sort of makes a shambles of the acronym "OTU" though :(
>
> The fact is that the OTU as it stands is contradictory, inconsistent and,
at
> times, unworkable.
> It's a mish-mash put together by dozens of different people with no
apparent
> continuity control.
>
> There doesn't appear to have been any effort to make the various rules
sets
> mesh together either.
>
> John Scarlett
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 05:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sat Aug 10 04:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
In-Reply-To: <3D556531.21647.F79DE@localhost>
References: <F24qs1wP7vvqgqGTwgT0000593c@hotmail.com> <3D556531.21647.F79DE@localhost>
Message-ID: <3d55f441.2663671@post.demon.co.uk>

"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:

>> The Zho's over-reached themselves, in my opinion.  They didn't =
properly=20
>> understand the strength of the Imperium's "defense in depth" concept, =
nor=20
>> the tenacity of local forces.
>
>The latter is perhaps understandable, as in previous wars they didn't=20
>seem to have much trouble 'persuading' systems to leave the Imperium.=20

Well, naturally they didn't have much trouble "persuading" the local
inhabitants... they *are* dirty mindraping brainwashing Joe scum,
after all...

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 05:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 04:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <003c01c23dc2$11fe1850$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <20810.032526.5d5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Eric Frank Russell never became as famous as many of the other Hugo
> Winners, but some of his novels have recently been re-issued and are
> available at Amazon(1). Shadow Man: The life and works of Eric Frank
> Russell(2) is a good fan site. For some reviews of some of Russell's
> other works, visit this site(3).

I hope the re-issue "The Great Explosion". Or a book containing all the
stories from it. 

It has some *very* odd societies that any Traveller referree can swipe
to put on Earthlike worlds. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 05:23:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 04:23:18 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <e4e645e4c45c.e4c45ce4e645@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <20810.031820.6v4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Jeff D. Greenly" says
>> <snip naval change of command>
>> 
>> Don't forget - the outgoing commander has to do an inventory 
>> with the new commander, and the new commander gets to sign 
>> for the ship and all of the equipment in it.
>
> Anybody know if a _Nimitz_-class CVN has a National Stock Number? ;-)
>
> As the incoming captain signs a one-page hand receipt for "Carrier, 
> Aircraft, Nuclear-Powered, w/ancillary equipment"...then spends the next 
> week signing all the annexes to the hand receipt....

Eric Frank Russell's short story "Allamagoosa" has an interesting
example of what can happen. 

"V1098. Offog, one."

(You can find the story in "the Hugo Winners, Volume I")

And there's a bit in "Starship Troopers" about what happens when you
fail to doublecheck the inventory before taking over from someone.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 05:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 10 04:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
Message-ID: <200208101154.MLV00593@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson says
>So? The effect (left or right) still *has* a cause (the 
observation). 
>
>So *global* causality is upheld. Local isn't.
>

The problem is that the photon changed course billions of 
years ago, before the Earth existed, before people existed, 
before the detector existed.  But the act of observing forces 
a change - a change that takes place before the observation.

It's as though an observation in the present writes the past, 
which is what Wheeler talks about.  Results preceding the 
initiating action.  Wheeler says in one of his books that the 
act of observing writes and decides the past - it's not 
really observing, since by changing the methods of 
observation, we can get a different result.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 06:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 10 05:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller - more
Message-ID: <200208101200.MLV00743@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson says
>Even so, anything that can make an FGMP or air raft fusion 
>plant work, could probably make a "pure" fusion bomob that 
>wasn't overly huge. Say the size of an early atomic bomb. 

Fusion weapons without fission triggers are under 
consideration now.  Work was done in Poland as early as 1976 
on a biconical shaped charge and tritium gas that achieved a 
nominal fusion result.  The development was intended to 
produce a torpedo warhead - the prototype device was small 
enough to fit on a tabletop.

Probably the closest thing today would be magnetized target 
fusion.  You'll need a plasma source, and a power source much 
smaller than you might think, because once the plasma is 
initially confined, the final compression can be done by 
explosives.

The work on non-fission devices has a primary design goal of 
very small packages, very small yields.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 06:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sat Aug 10 05:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Uthe
In-Reply-To: <20020810065021.7C9C72793A@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <3.0.6.32.20020809211618.00a919f0@minn.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020810071405.00a98100@minn.net>

At 01:50 AM 8/10/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>On 08/09/02 at 09:16 PM,  Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net> said:
>
>>At 09:28 PM 8/9/2002 EDT, GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:
>>>Les writes:
>>>
>>>>Where can I find UWP stats for the Uthe subsector? Canon if possible.
>
>>>That would be in Foreven Sector? Canon for the entire sector comprises one 
>>>set, out of many, of subsector names, world *positions* and about seven
>>world 
>>>UWPs. That's it. Foreven was set aside (other than the above) as "not to
be 
>>>officially developed" by GDW late in the MT days.  The handfull of
official 
>>>bits were published in Imperiallines #1. Some details beyond this can be 
>>>found in the CT adventures in that sector.
>
>>Sorry, I believe that you are incorrect.
>
>>If I recall correctly the Foreven sector is spinward of the Spinward
>>Marches. The Uthe subsector is shown in Supplement 3 as being
>>immediately coreward of the Regina subsector. 
>
>Gvurrdon Sector/Subsector O -- Uthe
>
> I go to <http://zho.berka.com/data/CLASSIC/> for my OTU data needs.
><g>
>
>Eris
>-- 
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
>http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     My new first rule of advanced weapon testing: Make a backup 
copy of yourself before opening fire.
     --Kevyn, Schlock Mercenary, August 10, 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 06:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 10 05:15:03 2002
Subject: Armor Schemes (was: Re: [TML] mines)
Message-ID: <200208101214.MLV01175@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>Half a million points of armour is really just
>getting silly (and infeasible).  :/

If I'm the commander, and the bridge is armored that much 
more heavily than the rest of the ship, that's great - the 
rest of the ship can be blown completely away, but I'm going 
to survive the battle, tumbling end over end in what's left 
of the bridge.

If we have some backup power inside the bridge itself, we can 
make tea while waiting for the boarding party - or the second 
salvo.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 06:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sat Aug 10 05:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <20809.201248.7O9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <200208091312.MKB02981@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D55B66B.29635.222212@localhost>

On 9 Aug 2002, at 20:12, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> > the problem is that the nature of the observation will force 
> > a photon to the left or the right - an observation that is 
> > taken perhaps a billion years after the photon departed. 

> So? The effect (left or right) still *has* a cause (the observation). 

No, the effect that caused the proton to turn left or right was gravity and did 
occur billions of years ago. The observation is the effect that turns one of 
the two possibilities into reality. Up until the observation, both of the 
possibilities "exist" as probabilities, but the act of observation forces the 
universe to pick one.

> So *global* causality is upheld. Local isn't.

Both local and global causality are upheld.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 07:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 10 06:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 Lite
Message-ID: <609ee3606edd.606edd609ee3@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: James Ramsay <quakers_united@yahoo.com.au>
Date: Thursday, July 25, 2002 5:08 am
Subject: RE: [TML] T20 Lite

<<snip>>

 Which brings me to another point, is there any
> version of Trav where denser atmospheres affect
> lasers. Would this be a noticeable affect in RL.

FF&S2 for T4 has a table to calculate the effect of various atmosphere 
types on laser fire (my copy is in my barracks room, else I'd quote the 
table).  I suspect that FF&S (for TNE) also has this feature.

Sorry if someone already answered this; I'm still trying to catch up on 
a couple thousand TML posts....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 07:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sat Aug 10 06:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Uthe
In-Reply-To: <20020810065021.7C9C72793A@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <3.0.6.32.20020809211618.00a919f0@minn.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020810084457.00a92520@minn.net>

At 01:50 AM 8/10/2002 -0500, Eris Reddoch wrote:

>Gvurrdon Sector/Subsector O -- Uthe
>
> I go to <http://zho.bekka.com/data/CLASSIC/> for my OTU data needs.
><g>
>
>Eris

Actually it's <http://zho.berka.com/data/CLASSIC/>

The maps aree in ASCII, which is really neat. 

Thank you.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     My new first rule of advanced weapon testing: Make a backup 
copy of yourself before opening fire.
     --Kevyn, Schlock Mercenary, August 10, 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 08:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat Aug 10 07:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <20810.032526.5d5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <003c01c23dc2$11fe1850$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <3D55CFD9.21732.1B01A6F@localhost>

On 10 Aug 2002 at 3:25, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
> 
> > Eric Frank Russell never became as famous as many of the other Hugo
> > Winners, but some of his novels have recently been re-issued and are
> > available at Amazon(1). Shadow Man: The life and works of Eric Frank
> > Russell(2) is a good fan site. For some reviews of some of Russell's
> > other works, visit this site(3).
> 
> I hope the re-issue "The Great Explosion". Or a book containing all the
> stories from it. 
> 
> It has some *very* odd societies that any Traveller referree can swipe
> to put on Earthlike worlds. 

I always liked "Stronger than a thousand Gands, and smoother than an 
Earthman's downfall" from that book.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 09:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 08:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <m365ymsna4.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20810.073205.2D4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> "Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> writes:
>> 
>> At the current rates of extinction, somewhere between every six
>> months and two years (depending on which biologist you listen to) we
>> destroy one undiscovered medicine.
>
> We destroy one natural source of an undiscovered medicine, perhaps.
> But we can synthesise just about anything these days.  My best friend
> is a biochemist (well, almost--getting his PhD in a year), and if I
> remember our conversations correctly, most biochemistry these days is
> _not_ `oh, some old wives' tale says this is good; let's try it,' but
> rather `let's see which substances we can squeeze through _this_
> barrier,' i.e. it's pretty much known what most substances are going
> to do; the trick is to get them through cell walls, preserve them
> until they hit the right parts of the body, keep them from hitting the
> wrong parts.

Either he was simplifying things for you or you missed an important
detail.

We know what certain types of molecules do. And we have a good idea of
what making changes to them *might* do.

The reason we need to keep searching is because we are a *long* way
from being able to tell *in advance* what a new molecular structure
might do. 

The number of possible organic molecule structures is sufficiently huge
that checking for biological effects of natural compounds is *much*
faster than trying to synthesize things at "random". 

> The company he's interning with essentially takes a patented molecule,
> developes a thousand variations on it, and sells those variations back
> to the original patenter, IIRC.

Right. They are trying *variations* on molecules that are known to have
desireable biological effects. Partly to improve effectiveness, partly
to lessen undesirable side effects.

But that's a long ways from coming up with "original" molecular
structures that have desirable properties from scratch.

The way cells work is not something we understand at the required level
of detail. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 09:06:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 08:06:19 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <p04330109b977629d272b@[198.123.22.179]>
Message-ID: <20810.074124.2A3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>Sufficiently advanced technology makes life on an airless
>>rockball possible - why would such a species need to preserve
>>its wildlife?
>
> Well, if we assume that the airless rockball is totally self 
> suficient (not just sufficient over a timescale of week or months) I 
> see two reasons...
>
> 1) Economics, a natural ecosystem maintains itself (and hence is a 
> lot cheaper).
> 2) Comfort, just because the rockball is livable, doesn't mean it 
> produces everything people would want.

Also, if a planet *isn't* an airless rockball, but is moderately
livable, killing off the wrong thing (or introducing the wrong thing)
may screw up the ecosystem faster than you can build life support for
the current population, much less evacuate them.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 09:06:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 08:06:38 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020807171434.GA26680@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <20810.074416.5U2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 09:26:27AM -0600, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
>> > At the current rates of extinction, somewhere between every six
>> > months and two years (depending on which biologist you listen to) we
>> > destroy one undiscovered medicine.
>> 
>> We destroy one natural source of an undiscovered medicine, perhaps.
>> But we can synthesise just about anything these days.  
>
> Well, yes, but wouldn't it be a bit easier to synthesise a compound if
> you had it beforehand, instead of trying to duplicate the effects from
> an old tale?

More to the point, unless we already *have* a compound that shows
effects similar to those we want, we mostly have no idea how to design
a molecule to produce a given effect.

>
> -- 
> Mikko Parviainen
> "I quote signatures."
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 09:06:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 08:06:53 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <m37kj2r2wf.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20810.074619.7G6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> "Mikko V.I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi> writes:
>>
>> > We destroy one natural source of an undiscovered medicine,
>> > perhaps.  But we can synthesise just about anything these days.
>> 
>> Well, yes, but wouldn't it be a bit easier to synthesise a compound
>> if you had it beforehand, instead of trying to duplicate the effects
>> from an old tale?
>
> But that's the point: as I understand it we've pretty well exhausted
> the use of old tales and have moved on.  Not that I discount the
> possibility that a remarkable new medicine could be lurking in the
> rainforest; simply that I discount the probability.
>
> As I understand it, science understand the effects of most substances:

We understand the effects of the substances we *know*. As in we know
*what* eefects they have. In many cases we aren't always sure *why*. 

> the trick is to get them where they're needed and not where they're
> not.  Which means designing a molecule which will let a drug slip
> through one barrier but not another.  Which is tricky.

That's true.

We just plain *can't* design a molecule from scratch to have a *new*
effect. We don't understand the inner working of the cell well enough.

We do have a fair amount of understandng of the cell membranes now.
Enough that we have some idea as to what changes might make a molecule
get thru more easily. But even then we have to try them, because we
don't know if the changes will compromise the therapeutic effects.

It does little good to get a variant that gets inside easily if in the
process we make it quit doing what we wanted it to do once it gets
there. Or if we add a nasty side effect.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 09:07:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 08:07:10 2002
Subject: [TML] John Beats The Dead Horse of Imperial Rules Of War...
In-Reply-To: <OFB4C576D0.DD4913B9-ONCA256C0F.00177D95@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20810.075328.3g6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I believe that mercenaries, available and used in the standard way that 
> Trav says they are used, would only be possible under the canonical "Rules 
> of War" scheme. That is, with merc troops being recognised as legitimate 
> forces, with repatriation bonds, etc. Exactly what David Drake writes 
> about - I'm sure he must have cribbed a bit from Traveller.

Actually, Traveller borrowed that from him if I recall correctly.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 09:07:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 08:07:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <OFBDFF848E.6EC3E744-ONCA256C0E.0009E3EB@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20810.075757.1b1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Dear Folks -
>
> Leonard wrote:
>>If we can't follow our own laws except when it is convenient, we are
>>all at the mercy of anybody in a position of authorty.
>
> Welcome to the "rule of men, not laws".

Which is why the Imperium is an interesting place to play in, but not
necessarily to live in.

> BTW, did you receive the Straker Theme I sent over?

Yes, I haven't gotten around to extracting the files yet.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 09:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 10 08:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Uthe
Message-ID: <43.fb9fa6e.2a868beb@aol.com>

In a message dated 8/10/02 5:14:55 AM, tml-request@travellercentral.com 
writes:

>>>>>Where can I find UWP stats for the Uthe subsector? Canon if possible.
>>
>>>>That would be in Foreven Sector? Canon for the entire sector comprises
>one 
>>>>set, out of many, of subsector names, world *positions* and about seven
>>>world 
>>>>UWPs. That's it. Foreven was set aside (other than the above) as "not
>to
>be 
>>>>officially developed" by GDW late in the MT days.  The handfull of
>official 
>>>>bits were published in Imperiallines #1. Some details beyond this can
>be 
>>>>found in the CT adventures in that sector.
>>
>>>Sorry, I believe that you are incorrect.
>>
>>>If I recall correctly the Foreven sector is spinward of the Spinward
>>>Marches. The Uthe subsector is shown in Supplement 3 as being
>>>immediately coreward of the Regina subsector. 
>>
>>Gvurrdon Sector/Subsector O -- Uthe

Ah, of course. Teach me (tho' probably not) to go from memory instead of 
looking it up.  Canon info for Gvurrdon comes from the original CT Vargr 
module, as well as the DGP version for MT. Not a lot to be had, but the CT 
module has the complete map and sector listing (sans names) in the back. 
Tidbits appear elsewhere, I'm sure. Since this IS Vargr space, you may want 
to generate two sets of world names: one for what the Imperium calls a world 
on its charts, and sporadic name changes for some worlds to reflect the Vargr 
tendency to impermanence. I'm sure there's a name set already out there on 
the net somewhere...

As for the Foreven info, while not entirely relevant, it IS something that 
needs to be restated periodically.

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 10:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 10 09:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
In-Reply-To: <232810-22002859195212613@M2W075.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810092517.009fa210@mindspring.com>

At 03:52 PM 8/9/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
>
> >Most of the sound associated with weapons fire is the sound of the powder
> >going off.  The crack of the bullet is negligible.  For example, a silenced
> >.22LR is nearly silent in operation.
>
>Oh, come on, Doug.  You and I both know they're louder than that.
>While you certainly don't need hearing protection around one, they
>sound about like a large balloon being popped.  Even in an open
>outdoor area, I can hear one fire over 50 yds. away.  Now, if
>subsonic ammo is being used, it's a whole different story.

I saw a demonstration of a .22LR bolt-action pistol.  From five feet away I 
could barely detect the crack of the round.  Had I been downrange trying to 
determine where that shooter was, I would have been up a famous creek 
having mislaid my paddle.

> >A 4mm gauss round would make a high pitched *crack* audible only to
> > those near the flight path.
>
>With "near" probably meaning within 200 meters.  (This assumes a
>calm, clear day, across level terrain and with no significant
>background noise to mask the shot.)

Hmm.. I think 200m is a bit far, but unless one of is volunteering to crawl 
across the mud at your rifle club while the other fires suppresed rounds 
overehead...


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 10:53:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 10 09:53:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
In-Reply-To: <200208092111.MKR04077@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810092937.009f60f0@mindspring.com>

At 05:11 PM 8/9/02 -0400, you wrote:

>On a side note, I used to call the M-16 (without a
>suppressor) the Orville Redenbacher, because at a distance,
>it sounds like popcorn in the microwave.  Never really
>sounded like a real weapon to me.

 From what I understand, that made life in Vietnam a bit easier for the 
grunts.  If it sounds like a real weapon, it's our good friend Charles.  If 
it sounds like a toy gun, it's friendlies.

>I can't imagine lasers making any noise at all, unless you
>hit someone.  And if they aren't in the visible light range
>(ideal transmission is apparently in the near infrared for
>work in Earth's atmosphere), you won't see the near miss
>either.

I always gave them a very quiet hiss as the beam incinerated dust/water 
vapor in the beam path.  Any noise at all drowns it out.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 11:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug 10 10:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810092517.009fa210@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B97A97EE.69295%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/10/02 9:29 AM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:

>> Oh, come on, Doug.  You and I both know they're louder than that.
>> While you certainly don't need hearing protection around one, they
>> sound about like a large balloon being popped.  Even in an open
>> outdoor area, I can hear one fire over 50 yds. away.  Now, if
>> subsonic ammo is being used, it's a whole different story.
>=20
> I saw a demonstration of a .22LR bolt-action pistol.  From five feet away=
 I
> could barely detect the crack of the round.  Had I been downrange trying =
to
> determine where that shooter was, I would have been up a famous creek
> having mislaid my paddle.

That is the great advantage of the suppressed, supersonic round.  Even
though it makes noise, it is difficult if not impossible to locate the
shooter.  Particularly since the ballistic crack reflects off objects as th=
e
bullet passes them, making the source of the sound that much more
complicated to identify.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 11:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 10 10:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
In-Reply-To: <000001c2403c$3dbce440$8bdad63f@customer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810093741.009f6d90@mindspring.com>

At 03:03 AM 8/10/02 -0400, you wrote:

>So, my above statements don't accurately reflect the point that I was trying
>to make.  When I talk about the rules sets not meshing, I mean that how
>things work is different from rules set to rules set so that your not able
>to do some things in one rules set that you could with another rules set.
>This doesn't allow for much meaningful discussion of how things work between
>people who are using different rules sets.

Different designers, different design philosophies.  The economic rules 
were always geared to support the small independent trader.  Trying to 
develop the actual level of trade using rules in Merchant Prince or 
MegaTraveller while give bad results.

I avoid mechanic discussions like the plague.  I write for GURPS.  I *try* 
to make my stuff accessible to other players as well, but the mechanics 
will be different.  (Hell, the last Traveller game I actually played in was 
run under CORPS.)

>As for the OTU, I was blissfully happy with it until I joined the TML.  It's
>the various threads on 'How This doesn't work' and 'How does That really
>work?' that have led me to the conclusion that there's something not quite
>right with the OTU.

Of course there is something wrong!  It was designed piece by piece over 
the course of the last 25 years by dozens of different people working for 
different companies and with very different agendas.  It's history by 
committee.  There will be holes all over the place.  That's one of the 
things we do here is fill those holes, hence the current discussion of 
topics like the Fifth Frontier War and Arbellatra.  I can only speak for 
myself, but some of what it said here finds its way both into my games and 
my pay copy.

>Frankly I don't know why I'm making such a fuss.  I've always believed that
>I should do what I want IMTU and I should let everybody else do what they
>want in their TU's.  The OTU is vague enough to allow for many different
>interpretations.  Maybe it was designed to be that way on purpose.

Which is a healthy attitude.  After Ground Forces came out, i received a 
*scathing* email from a customer who quite literally told me he was going 
to complain to Steve Jackson and Marc Miller, through my book in the 
furnace, and demand that I never be hired to write another word for 
Traveller because I was a complete moron who obviously was out to ruin the 
entire game.  Why?

Because I put the Marines into kilts as part of their full dress 
uniform.  One paragraph, in a sidebar.  I wrote the person back and asked 
if he like the rest of the book, and if so, why didn't he ignore it?  I put 
it in for a reason, but if it makes him that mad, simply take a black 
Sharpie and line through the offending phrase.  Simple.  He actually wrote 
back saying that since it was in the book it meant that he *had* to do 
it.  I gave him official aithor dispensation to not have Marines in 
kilts.  Put 'em in clown suits for all I care.

Everything published, or written here, is subject to the interpetation and 
judgement of each player and referee.  Use what you want, change what you 
like, ignore that which annoys you.  This was part of the reason I 
suggested the Landgrab.. get involvement from people so we could see their 
views of this universe.  Nobody *has* to use them, but they make for some 
interesting data points.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 11:23:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 10 10:23:23 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
In-Reply-To: <20020810004141.99222.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810095614.00a07cf0@mindspring.com>

At 05:41 PM 8/9/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
> >The also ran into a wild card: Norris.  You can't predict an
> >unexpected enemy commander that is a bloody genius and has figured
> >out your plan.  I always wondered if Norris' branch of Naval
> >Intelligence hadn't actually learned bits and pieces of the Zhodani
> >plan.
>
>and then failed to disclose those bits and pieces to Sector Admiral
>Santanocheev, to destroy his credibility before the Emperor, and to
>allow the advance of other members of the INI cabal ... how paranoid
>are we?

Oh, I always know Norris was a bit of a Napoleon.  Let's see.  His elder 
brother dies, and he becomes Duke of Regina.  Santocheev, a pompous 
incompetent twit, has information held back by Norris' faction of Naval 
Intelligence, piddles all over himself and is removed in disgrace, allowing 
Norris to become a war hero.  Norris becomes Archduke.  Just me, or do I 
hear Strephon telling Norris "rid me of this bothersome Admiral."


> >The Zho's over-reached themselves, in my opinion.  They didn't
> >properly understand the strength of the Imperium's "defense in
> >depth" concept, nor the tenacity of local forces.
>
>Shtaliajtlas was an idiot, actually, who had not run enough
>simulations to know how to get and hold 300 points before the
>Imperium could react and start rolling the Zhodanis back.

We always played with the optional rules that capitals and high-pop worlds 
were both worth double VP.  Jewell and Rhylanor, 54 and 60VP respectively, 
were juicy targets.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption
abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every
man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the
end of the world is fast approaching."
- Assyrian Tablet, c.2800 BC




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 11:23:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 10 10:23:43 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810100309.00a046b0@mindspring.com>

Way OT, but as a hardcore Giants fan, I just gotta brag.

Last night, Barry Bonds hit his 600th career home run.  Next target: 661.

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
- Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 11:58:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat Aug 10 10:58:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Uthe
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020810084457.00a92520@minn.net>
Message-ID: <20020810175718.96C472793A@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/10/02 at 08:44 AM,  Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net> said:

>At 01:50 AM 8/10/2002 -0500, Eris Reddoch wrote:

>>Gvurrdon Sector/Subsector O -- Uthe
>>
>> I go to <http://zho.bekka.com/data/CLASSIC/> for my OTU data needs.
>><g>
>>
>>Eris

>Actually it's <http://zho.berka.com/data/CLASSIC/>

Oops! That's what I get for sending a post at 0150. <g> 

>The maps aree in ASCII, which is really neat. 

What's neatest, to me, is the data is available in Galactic format, so
I can download them directly to the proper directories and I've (more
or less) added another sector to my copy of the program.  But, yes,
the perl scripts that produce the ascii maps are neat, as are the java
programs. I'd love to see the code!

>Thank you.

You are welcome, but most of your thanks should go to the list owner.

Eris

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 12:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Aug 10 11:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <F52sKj9cMXF1UVkCUVP00005065@hotmail.com>

From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

     Way OT, but as a hardcore Giants fan, I just gotta brag.

     Last night, Barry Bonds hit his 600th career home run.  Next target: 
661.


Mr. Berry,

     With the "Say Hey Kid" as your godfather, you BETTER hit 600 plus!
     Now that the Olde Town Team is well into their patented summer swoon, 
following Mr. Bonds has given me great pleasure of late.  He hit one a few 
weeks ago that went so far there should have been a stewardess on it!
     Oops, gotta go, Hillenbrand just hit a double and the Flops have jumped 
out ahead of the amazin' Twins (downsize THIS Selig!).  With Pedro on the 
mound, one run might be all the Flops need.  Since the All-Star break, it 
seems Martinez can throw a porkchop past a wolf.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen E. "Goddam Red Sox!" Whipsnade

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 12:07:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 10 11:07:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
Message-ID: <200208101806.MMH01558@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry says

>Hmm.. I think 200m is a bit far, but unless one of is 
>volunteering to crawl across the mud at your rifle club 
>while the other fires suppresed rounds overehead...

Had an interesting day a long time ago.  We were at Range 14, 
one of the few known distance ranges at Ft. Campbell, in 
1988.  We took turns shooting an M-21 with suppressor.  While 
the shooter fired rounds in slow fire, we walked along the 
side berm, eventually moving from 100 meters directly behind 
the firer, to 100 meters directly to the right, then moving 
along the right berm, up to the 300 yard berm, moving along 
behind the berm as the rounds went overhead, and back down 
along the left berm.  The change in delay between thump of 
weapon and crack of bullet was extremely instructive.  If 
there are any other echo generating surfaces around, off axis 
between shooter and target, it's very confusing as to where 
things are.

There is still a thump from the weapon (muzzle noise), and 
there's more of a crack from a supersonic 7.62 than we later 
heard from a M-16 round.  I might note that the more modern 
suppressor we saw on the M-16 was a lot better than the 
ancient thing on the M-21.

Tod may shed some light on it, but there didn't seem to be a 
way to take apart the newer models of these things.  They 
didn't have relief valves, either.  On the old suppressor, 
you could see how the front plate of the suppressor was 
screwed in - and how you could possibly remove it.  The 
suppressor (unidentified) that I saw on the M-16 was fatter, 
shorter, and had no obvious means of dismantling it.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 12:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Sat Aug 10 11:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F163A@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Good idea!  Hadn't really thought of that one (yet).  I'll add it to the list of Famille Spofulam stuff I'm working on.
Jesse

> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com [mailto:shadow@krypton.rain.com]
> Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 1:13 AM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
> 
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > I'd been thinking about this for a while, too. A copyright 
> question that I 
> > don't know the answer to is, "Is it 'fair use' if I put a 
> Jesse picture on 
> > ONE T-Shirt for my own use?"
> 
> Actually, given *some* of us in this group, an "I <heart> HE" shirt
> like Ditzie's might do well, and could be sold to the mainstream.
> 
> Which reminds me:
> 
> http://jokeworm.com/AToons/AT280.jpg
> 
> -- 
> Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 12:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug 10 11:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
In-Reply-To: <200208101806.MMH01558@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B97AAB5A.692AC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/10/02 11:06 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> Tod may shed some light on it, but there didn't seem to be a
> way to take apart the newer models of these things.  They
> didn't have relief valves, either.  On the old suppressor,
> you could see how the front plate of the suppressor was
> screwed in - and how you could possibly remove it.  The
> suppressor (unidentified) that I saw on the M-16 was fatter,
> shorter, and had no obvious means of dismantling it.

One of the 'features' of modern suppressors from the big name vendors (AWC,
Gemtech, etc) is that they are sealed.  This is mainly for two reasons.  Th=
e
first (the one the vendor gives) is to keep precision components in
alignment and free from damage.  But the main reason is to protect
proprietary designs.  They don't want you to see how they work, and most
people aren't going to cut apart a $500 dollar, registered suppressor just
to find out.

For the military, this is not an issue.  A suppressor is a disposable item.
For the civilian user, this is another matter.  Suppressors are registered,
and sending them back for service is a bureaucratic nightmare.  Suppressors
do get dirty, and do require cleaning.  IMHO, a suppressor that cannot be
stripped for cleaning is just asking for trouble.  My own designs are simpl=
e
to disassemble, and while not as efficient as some of the 'big name'
suppressors, are infinitely easier to maintain.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 12:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug 10 11:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Stripmime
In-Reply-To: <20809.034100.0C2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <B97AAB99.692AD%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/9/02 4:41 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:

> In mail you write:
>=20
>> Someone on the TML kindly modified Stripmime to allow messages without a
>> content type to get posted on the list (A fix for Leonard).  If that per=
son
>> still has a copy, could they please contact me.  I've lost the original =
that
>> you sent me.
>=20
> If it runs on Intel family CPUs under DOS, Windoze, or OS/2, I'd be
> interested in a copy..

It's written in perl.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 13:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Sat Aug 10 12:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <F52sKj9cMXF1UVkCUVP00005065@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020810190015.25320.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>

> From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
> 
>      Way OT, but as a hardcore Giants fan, I just
> gotta brag.
> 
>      Last night, Barry Bonds hit his 600th career
> home run.  Next target: 
> 661.

Only one of four players in the 600+ club.  It is
truly amazing, but my favorite comment was...

"As amazing as it is, he is still 155 away from Hank. 
Sorta puts Hank's achievement in perspective."

I was really glad for Barry.  Hopefully he can break
615 or 620 this year and stick around for a couple
more and get close to 755.

(BTW, my second favorite line was by Barry himself
giving Nenn his dues and asking the reporters if he
could go home the night he hit 599.)

Paul

__________________________________________________
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HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 13:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 10 12:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
Message-ID: <6b20b06ad2b2.6ad2b26b20b0@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Date: Saturday, August 10, 2002 7:29 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...

> At 03:52 PM 8/9/02 -0400, you wrote:

<<snip\..
> >
> >With "near" probably meaning within 200 meters.  (This assumes a
> >calm, clear day, across level terrain and with no significant
> >background noise to mask the shot.)
> 
> Hmm.. I think 200m is a bit far, but unless one of is volunteering 
> to crawl 
> across the mud at your rifle club while the other fires suppresed 
> rounds 
> overehead...

Well, if I can ever make it to an Oregon shoot (IOW, if I can avoid yet 
another mobilization long enough to make it up there), I'll volunteer.  
After all, as a paratrooper, I've been taught that I'm very 
bullet-resistant. ;-)

Of course, given my MOS and assigned (_not_ chosen!) target language, 
that could be a couple of decades from now.... :-(


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 14:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 10 13:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <6b60e36b77b9.6b77b96b60e3@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Date: Saturday, August 10, 2002 8:04 pm
Subject: [TML] OT: Barry Bonds

> Way OT, but as a hardcore Giants fan, I just gotta brag.
> 
> Last night, Barry Bonds hit his 600th career home run.  Next 
> target: 661.

Who cares [*].  Barry Bonds will _still_ never be fit to wash Big Mac's 
skivvies.... ;-)

ObTrav: Change the game from baseball to gravball, change the names from 
Mark McGwire and Barry Bonds to something a bit more Travelleresque (or 
not), and you can use the "who's greater?" discussion practically 
verbatim.

[*] Says someone who definitively bleeds Cardinals Red [**].... ;-)

[**] Although I do indeed bleed Cardinals Red when sliced and/or diced, 
I prefer to keep my blood going round and round, rather than spurting 
out in great gouts....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 14:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 10 13:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <200208102021.MML01580@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Paul Walker says
>"As amazing as it is, he is still 155 away from Hank. 
>Sorta puts Hank's achievement in perspective."

I'm waiting for the genetically modified players to come out.

Mind you, I might be 80 years old when that happens.

Then, baseball as we know it will be over, and the far future 
will have begun.

________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 14:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 10 13:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
Message-ID: <200208102027.MMM00032@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

john.groth@us.army.mil  says
>Of course, given my MOS and assigned (_not_ chosen!) target 
>language, that could be a couple of decades from now.... :-(

Just stay above ground.  Every day above ground is a good 
day.  Learning the language is not going to be the hard part 
in the future of RL.  There are just some really wicked NPCs 
out and about...

I didn't find modern hebrew that difficult to learn on my 
own.  I think it would be easier to learn to speak Arabic 
than to read it (I've a smattering of Chinese, but it's all 
conversational - I can't read at all).

Then there's the ancient stuff - the old hebrew and aramaic - 
but if you're a gearhead, this sort of stuff is interesting.

It could be worse.  Imagine trying to find some place alone 
in the barracks so you can practice your Vargr.  Or maybe 
while you're the SDNCO, it's 0200, and you figure you can 
just start barking...

So, was Donald Sutherland speaking Vargr when he played 
Oddball in Kelly's Heroes?
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 14:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 10 13:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day
Message-ID: <200208102032.MMN00082@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Groth has another long night as SDNCO.  Routine, and 
routinely boring.  After all, Imperial peacekeeping duty on 
Garda-Vilis has been going on for over 20 years....

Still, he's trying to keep sharp, and learn new skills.  He's 
hoping to improve his language skill in Vargr.

The corporal sitting next to him is engrossed in the latest 
military tri-D.  Groth goes into the battalion office - 
hopefully he can keep this private.

Unbeknownst to Groth, the S3 is keeping a late night, and 
comes around to the office area.  Groth, engrossed in his 
woofing, doesn't notice the major looking at him.

The major clears his throat.  He knows Groth is working hard, 
but he's never gotten used to the idea of men growling and 
barking like dogs. 

"Carry on, sergeant."

________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 14:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Sat Aug 10 13:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Fire, Fusion, & Steel (TNE version) Thruster question
Message-ID: <20020810204013.8336.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>

No, I'm not gonna ask about T-plates and HEPlaR. ;)

I'm trying to design my very first Missile.  The
EAPlaC is driving me nuts.  The text says (pg 70, top
column 2):

** The values shown for the EAPlaC and fusion rockets
are the _minimum_ thrust ratings per engine.

The number in the table for EAPlaC is 100.  So does
that mean that I have to design the Solid Rocket Fuel
Propulsion part of the missile to handle 100 Tonnes of
thrust?  That (if I'm reading right) would be an
additional mass of 30 tonnes to my tiny missile!?!?!?!

Arggg.  If someone who loves this stuff would be
willing to talk me through the entire design off list,
I'd really appreciate it.

Paul


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HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 16:03:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sat Aug 10 15:03:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Settlement date of Vilis
In-Reply-To: <20020810050803.5872.3294.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208102340010.8945-100000@ask.diku.dk>

John T. Kwon writes:
>The Sword Worlds had their first interstellar government, the
>Sacnoth Dominate, in -186, and lasting to -102, when
>rebellion broke it up.

Do you have a subscription to JTAS Online? If so, you may want to take a
look at two capaign settings I've written about the Sacnoth Dominate and
the Five States Era (the period between the rise of new interstellar
societies following the devastation of the War of the First Rebellion and
the formation of the Triple Dominion).

>Garda-Vilis is supposedly settled in -121 as Tanoose.

-121 according to _Broadsword_, -120 according to _Regency Sourcebook_. I
myself goes with the first date. The settlement fails after a few decades.

>I am presuming that Vilis itself is settled before -121.

No, Vilis isn't settled until 240[*]. It is settled from Gungnir.
Garda-Vilis, as it is renamed, is 'settled' from Vilis in 290. Just what
happens isn't clear, but this is the period of the 'Squabbling States' (my
term[**]) which lies between the fall of the Triple Dominion in 217 and
the formation of the military government that unites the Sword Worlds at
the beginning of the 1st Frontier War, so I don't think it will be
difficult to come up with some military or economic upset that makes
Tanoose vulnerable to Vilisian military adventurism. Though Vilis will
need to be an unusually well-organized and unusually successful colony
venture in order to grow to a point where it can impose its will on a
long-established world in just 50 years.

[*] In 300 the Sword Worlds are divided into five interstellar states, in
    400 nine, in 500 eight, and in 589 five.

John T. Kwon writes:

>I'm putting the settlement date of Vilis down as -240, some time before
>the Sacnoth Dominate, and the colonists leaving from Gungnir.
>
>Any thoughts?

See above.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 16:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 10 15:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Settlement date of Vilis
Message-ID: <200208102222.MMP01599@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen says
>No, Vilis isn't settled until 240[*]. It is settled from 
>Gungnir.
>Garda-Vilis, as it is renamed, is 'settled' from Vilis in 
>290. Just what happens isn't clear, but this is the period 
>of the 'Squabbling States' (my term[**]) which lies between 
>the fall of the Triple Dominion in 217 and the formation of 
>the military government that unites the Sword Worlds at
>the beginning of the 1st Frontier War, so I don't think it 
>will be difficult to come up with some military or economic 
>upset that makes Tanoose vulnerable to Vilisian military 
>adventurism. Though Vilis will need to be an unusually well-
>organized and unusually successful colony venture in order 
>to grow to a point where it can impose its will on a
>long-established world in just 50 years.


That's the problem I had with the positive 240 date.  It 
would have to be a societal miracle on the scale of the Meiji 
Period in real life.  Japan going from 16th to 20th century 
in 40 years - and being able to project credible military 
power at the end of that period.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 16:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug 10 15:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <3D558F56.25375.B1AA6F1@localhost>
References: <200208091312.MKB02981@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <3D558F56.25375.B1AA6F1@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020811082836.A12196@freeman.little-possums.net>

Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
> it then travels all potential paths to the observer in variant
> probabilities, the photon then arrives at earth where the act of
> observeration selects which of the variant probabilities becomes
> part of reality.

Or depending upon your interpretation, the observer's state is
correlated with the photon's state.  Some people hold that the act of
observation has no special privileges in determining reality. :)


> See, no violation of causality (a splitting headache maybe, but no
> violation of causality)

Yes; whichever interpretation you adopt, there is no causality
violation.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 16:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug 10 15:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <200208101154.MLV00593@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208101154.MLV00593@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020811083334.B12196@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> But the act of observing forces a change - a change that takes place
> before the observation.

As I understand it, that particular interpretation isn't widely held
among physicists these days.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 16:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug 10 15:53:02 2002
Subject: Armor Schemes (was: Re: [TML] mines)
In-Reply-To: <200208101214.MLV01175@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208101214.MLV01175@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020811085247.C12196@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> If we have some backup power inside the bridge itself, we can make
> tea while waiting for the boarding party - or the second salvo.

I did specify that the jump coils were protected too -- pity the fuel
wasn't.  It's mainly useful if your side survives the engagement,
because you can probably rebuild around the jump drive even if the
rest of the ship is fubar.

Just out of interest, half a million points of advanced TL12 ablative
armour around a command bridge, and small power plant costs 25 MCr and
has a mass of 1400 tonnes.  Not completely infeasible, but massive
enough to impact performance.  The same amount of armour around a
jump-2 drive in a 10k dton ship would mass 20k tonnes and cost 340 MCr.
It would be protecting a 900 MCr piece of equipment.

If the rest of the ship is destroyed, it doesn't do you a lot of good
in a military sense.  If it isn't, you may well be able to activate
your working jump drive and get out of there before it is.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 16:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat Aug 10 15:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810095614.00a07cf0@mindspring.com>
References: <20020810004141.99222.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3D564265.28016.138F15@localhost>

On 10 Aug 2002 at 10:01, Douglas Berry wrote:

> >Shtaliajtlas was an idiot, actually, who had not run enough
> >simulations to know how to get and hold 300 points before the
> >Imperium could react and start rolling the Zhodanis back.
> 
> We always played with the optional rules that capitals and high-pop worlds 
> were both worth double VP.  Jewell and Rhylanor, 54 and 60VP respectively, 
> were juicy targets.

That would make going all the way to Regina more attractive, too.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 17:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat Aug 10 16:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Fire, Fusion, & Steel (TNE version) Thruster question
In-Reply-To: <20020810204013.8336.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3D5643D4.830.1928BE@localhost>

On 10 Aug 2002 at 13:40, Paul Walker wrote:

> No, I'm not gonna ask about T-plates and HEPlaR. ;)
> 
> I'm trying to design my very first Missile.  The
> EAPlaC is driving me nuts.  The text says (pg 70, top
> column 2):
> 
> ** The values shown for the EAPlaC and fusion rockets
> are the _minimum_ thrust ratings per engine.
> 
> The number in the table for EAPlaC is 100.  So does
> that mean that I have to design the Solid Rocket Fuel
> Propulsion part of the missile to handle 100 Tonnes of
> thrust?  That (if I'm reading right) would be an
> additional mass of 30 tonnes to my tiny missile!?!?!?!

Yes it means that the EAPlaC has to produce 100 tons of thrust. However 
note that there's no requirement for it to do so for very long. One of 
those mines I recently posted had a 500kg EAPlaC rocket producing 100 
tons of thrust for about 30 seconds (0.0167 of BL's 30-minute turns).
 
> Arggg.  If someone who loves this stuff would be
> willing to talk me through the entire design off list,
> I'd really appreciate it.

Well send me what you've done and I'll take a look. Missile design is 
fairly stright forward, as you don't have to buy a hull, etc.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 17:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sat Aug 10 16:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <20020808171316.15286.91204.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208110115150.11066-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Alan Bradley writes:
>Gratuitous nepotism goes a long way. I don't see any particular problem
>about [Arbellatra] taking over the family business, especially during the
>Civil War, when warlordism was rife.

My take is that she is herself at least a duchess (or at least the heir
apparent to one). And I think you're right that the pre-Civil War navy was
more subject to favoritism than the USN -- sorry, I mean the Classic Era
IN ;-).

>A good staff will cover a multitude of sins, especially if it includes
>people like Soegz. In fact, Soegz may have been the real genius.

Another candidate for the title 'The real Genius' is Arbellatra's flag
captain Kevin Alderon. So far he is only mentioned in one place, namely
"The Alderon Diary", an Amber Zone I wrote for PYRAMID some years ago (I
know some people do not count that as canonical). He was Arbellatra's flag
captain at the end of the 2nd Frontier War and followed her to the
Imperial Core where he eventually became Grand Admiral of the Fleets and
1st Space Lord. Upon Arbellatra's death in 666 he retired to Kinorb where
he lived out his remaining years in obscurity. About 50 years ago he was
immortalized by an author named D.T. Woodsman who wrote a semi-biographical
bestseller about him and followed up with a dozen sequels (All of which
have since been turned into smash holo-dramas).

Here is a list of book titles and short summaries thereof that I worked
out for the books. Bear in mind that while they are supposedly semi-
biographical, the emphasis is in some cases on the semi. I would not, for
instance, put much faith in the supposed first meeting between him and
Arbellatra ;-)

"Young Lord Alderon"    Lishun 586      Young Kevin Alderon decides to
  					join the Navy.

"Ensign Alderon"        Core 588        Kevin Alderon attends Naval
					Academy on Capital.
|
|Never written                          Sublieutenant Alderon.
|

"Lieutenant Alderon"    Vland 594       Lieutenant Alderon foils Vargr
					spys and meets a young vargr named
					Soegz.

"Liutenant Alderon      Corridor 596    Lieutenant  Alderon  battles Vargr
 and the Raiders"                       raiders along the Corridor border.

"Lt. Cmdr. Alderon"     Deneb 600

"Commander Alderon"     Sp. Mar. 604

"Commander Alderon      Sp. Mar. 605    A   brilliant  young  ensign named
 and the ensign"                        Arbellatra  serves  under Commander
                                        Alderon who promotes  her over the
					head of older ensigns.

"Commander Alderon      Tr. Rch. 613    Commander Alderon protects a client
 and the _ihatei_"                      state in the Outrim Void from Aslan
                                        settlers, eventually finding alter-
                                        native land for the Aslans.

"Captain Alderon"       Sp. Mar. 615    The outbreak of the Second Frontier
                                        War  brings Kevin Alderon his long-
                                        deserved promotion to captain.

"Captain Alderon's      Sp. Mar. 619    Alderon becomes Flag Captain to Ar-
 Flag"                                  bellatra, the newly-appointed Grand
                                        Admiral of the Marches.

Was Kevin Alderon no more than Arbellatra's faithful hatchetman or was he
the guiding hand behind her? Whoever eventually writes the Civil War
sourcebook will have to decide ;-D.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
------------
In my opinion it ought to go without saying that if you work in another
person's universe, he and anyone else authorized to work in said universe
is implicitly permitted to use your work as background material. But I
know it doesn't, so I hereby give my permission for Marc Miller and anyone
else authorized to work in the Traveller Universe to use the above as
background material.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 17:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sat Aug 10 16:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day
In-Reply-To: <200208102032.MMN00082@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020810183827.00a6c100@minn.net>

At 04:32 PM 8/10/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:

>Groth has another long night as SDNCO.  Routine, and 
>routinely boring.  After all, Imperial peacekeeping duty on 
>Garda-Vilis has been going on for over 20 years....
>
>Still, he's trying to keep sharp, and learn new skills.  He's 
>hoping to improve his language skill in Vargr.
>
>The corporal sitting next to him is engrossed in the latest 
>military tri-D.  Groth goes into the battalion office - 
>hopefully he can keep this private.
>
>Unbeknownst to Groth, the S3 is keeping a late night, and 
>comes around to the office area.  Groth, engrossed in his 
>woofing, doesn't notice the major looking at him.
>
>The major clears his throat.  He knows Groth is working hard, 
>but he's never gotten used to the idea of men growling and 
>barking like dogs. 
>
>"Carry on, sergeant."

I have to use this somehow.

Darn it.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     My new first rule of advanced weapon testing: Make a backup 
copy of yourself before opening fire.
     --Kevyn, Schlock Mercenary, August 10, 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 18:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat Aug 10 17:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208110115150.11066-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <20020808171316.15286.91204.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D56548D.12818.5A7CDF@localhost>

On 11 Aug 2002 at 1:34, Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> Alan Bradley writes:
> >Gratuitous nepotism goes a long way. I don't see any particular problem
> >about [Arbellatra] taking over the family business, especially during the
> >Civil War, when warlordism was rife.
> 
> My take is that she is herself at least a duchess (or at least the heir
> apparent to one). And I think you're right that the pre-Civil War navy was
> more subject to favoritism than the USN -- sorry, I mean the Classic Era
> IN ;-).

IMO the IN of CT is actually quite open to various forms of cronyism, 
nepotism, etc. It and the Marines are the two services where a good Soc 
improves your chances and, unlike the Marines, in the Navy your Soc can 
improve during service (all according to Book 1).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 18:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 10 17:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] smallcraft deckplans
Message-ID: <115.158c1370.2a87061b@aol.com>

at http://members.aol.com/exog/myhomepage/small.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 18:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Aug 10 17:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] smallcraft deckplans
In-Reply-To: <115.158c1370.2a87061b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020810201842.019119f8@192.168.0.1>

At 08:13 PM 8/10/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>at http://members.aol.com/exog/myhomepage/small.html

Nice, thanks!



----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Government does not cause affluence. Citizens of totalitarian
countries have plenty of government and nothing of anything
else." -- P. J. O'Rourke, EAT THE RICH
----------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 18:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sat Aug 10 17:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <3D55B1E8.DD9CA93@mail.cswnet.com>

Larsen writes:
>downsize THIS Selig!
A couple more games like todays and he just might take you up on the
offer.
Twinkies    0
Red Sox     2  Final
Since were on the subject, lets here it for the BIG UNIT!
Randy Johnson now 5th place in all-time strike outs!

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 20:32:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Aug 10 19:32:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Land grab webring
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020810223128.0203be30@mail.charter.net>

Any interest in a webring of landgrab sites?



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 00:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 10 23:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Land grab webring
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020810223128.0203be30@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810233001.009e15b0@mindspring.com>

At 10:31 PM 8/10/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Any interest in a webring of landgrab sites?

Yes!  It would encourage me to get a few planets put together and on the web.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 01:04:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Aug 11 00:04:05 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <6b60e36b77b9.6b77b96b60e3@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810233138.009e28a0@mindspring.com>

At 11:12 PM 8/10/02 +0300, you wrote:

>Who cares [*].  Barry Bonds will _still_ never be fit to wash Big Mac's
>skivvies.... ;-)

Big Mac? Sounds familiar..  Ah, yes.  The guy who has *2nd* place on the 
single-season home run record, and on all time..  576?  24 short, Bash-boy!

>ObTrav: Change the game from baseball to gravball, change the names from
>Mark McGwire and Barry Bonds to something a bit more Travelleresque (or
>not), and you can use the "who's greater?" discussion practically
>verbatim.

I once needed a bar brawl to break out, and put two guys discussing 
Rollerball in the corner.  Suddenly, I had one of the NPCs leap up and yell 
"The stinking '85 Dreadnaughts?  Stanton could've taken them sissies down 
single-handed!"  Rebuttal made by way of beer mug.

>[*] Says someone who definitively bleeds Cardinals Red [**].... ;-)

Could be worse, you could bleed Dodger (spit) Blue.

>[**] Although I do indeed bleed Cardinals Red when sliced and/or diced,
>I prefer to keep my blood going round and round, rather than spurting
>out in great gouts....

Yet he insults a Giant in my presence.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry   gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Cry "CHEEBLE!" and let slip the hamsters of war!



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 01:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Sun Aug 11 00:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Land grab webring
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810233001.009e15b0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPIEIFEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Looks good to me, especially as the Rockhead ring seems to be dead.

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
Sent: Sunday, 11 August 2002 2:31 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Land grab webring


At 10:31 PM 8/10/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Any interest in a webring of landgrab sites?

Yes!  It would encourage me to get a few planets put together and on the
web.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 01:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Sun Aug 11 00:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <200208101154.MLV00593@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <006a01c241a6$9af3ca00$1001a8c0@sauron>

John T. Kwon wrote :
> The problem is that the photon changed course billions of 
> years ago, before the Earth existed, before people existed, 
> before the detector existed.  But the act of observing forces 
> a change - a change that takes place before the observation.
> It's as though an observation in the present writes the past, 
> which is what Wheeler talks about.  Results preceding the 
> initiating action.  Wheeler says in one of his books that the 
> act of observing writes and decides the past - it's not 
> really observing, since by changing the methods of 
> observation, we can get a different result.

Wheeler is presuming that the physicists who make the 
observation have any choice in how or whether the 
observation is made.

The concept of "probablity" as described by Wheeler and 
quantum physics, is merely the latitude in the _model_, 
and in our current predictive tools. There is no latitude 
in the real world, merely in the tools we use to describe 
it.

Stating that "the probablility function collapses" or that 
the observation "causes" one probablility to become "real",
is just confusing the map with the territory. 
 
To look at it another way, the "problems" with causality 
are only problems because people are looking at the situation 
arse about face. From the point of view of the observer a 
billion years ago, eveything is completely predictable. 

_Because_ of the photon doing one thing now (in the past), 
it _will_ be observed at a particular time and place and manner 
in the future. 

A violation of causality will only occur if the physicists 
do _not_ make the observation. But they cannot fail to make 
the observation because they are part of the universe, and 
their actions have already been predestined by the particle 
action in the past.

Wheeler's argument is similar to asking you to accept the 
hypothesis that because you are now reading this mail, you 
are somehow influencing me to write it in the past, and that 
if you didn't read it, I would not have written it, rather 
than accepting the simpler hypothesis that you are reading 
it now because I wrote it previously.

<big grin>

Frankie


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 00:26:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 1 May 101 14:38:57 US/Central
Subject: [TML] The Best of the TML
Message-ID: <200105012050.f41KoX802336@premier1.premier.net>

> Now that the TML has a website (http://tml.travellercentral.com), I suggest
> we pull out the best postings on the list for a 'best of the TML' section of
> the website.  We need to create some mechanism for selecting "best ofs".
> Any suggestions?
> 
> The recent article on "Smart Fabrics" strikes me as a good candidate for the
> "Best Ofs".
> 
> What is the list members' opinion.

I suggest that there should be several categories of "Best of the TML" posts.  
Categories might include Toys (gearhead designs/ideas), Societies, 
Worldbuilding, Links, and Chrome (miscellaneous nifty stuff, such as Smart 
Fabrics).

Unfortunately, I have no idea how to implement an equitable system for 
_choosing_ "BotT"
posts.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 00:26:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Myers)
Date: Sun Aug 11 00:46:50 2002
Subject: [TML] sup.12 request [munchkin rant]
In-Reply-To: <MNEIJOCDFNHAIPMCMHEKEENICAAA.mickscan@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <200107020959.CAA09049@smtpout.mac.com>

I have the original, it's a corker. :-) The included scenario is a real 
example of how to deal with Big Secrets without upsetting the balance of 
power. It's the anti-SOTA (which I love as well, strangely).

- Rob.

On Sunday, July 1, 2001, at 11:07  am, Michael Scanlon wrote:

>
> I'm looking forward to the Alien Supplements to be out, which is looking
> like to be some time yet though. In particular I'm after the Darrian
> Supplement

--
JIEX - http://www.robmyers.org/jiex
Quarterly 2300AD Journal.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 00:26:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 101 17:28:59 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Filk of Veracruz
Message-ID: <200107262340.f6QNeYj00180@premier1.premier.net>

> What and whose melody is this song sung to?

The original song is Warren Zevon's "Vera Cruz," which can be found on the 
album "Excitable Boy."  It deals with the punitive expedition against Pancho 
Villa in (IIRC) 1916.

Tres cool stuff (both the original and Doug's filk).



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 00:26:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 101 18:35:33 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Traveller IRC
Message-ID: <200109120047.f8C0lPw19555@premier1.premier.net>

Yes mr. Zeitlin works in NCP as a system op.  He also lives outside the city 
the last time I heared.  Though I have not been on IRC in a bit.  For the rest 
of you he is the one who runs Free Traveller website.  

Tim Reynolds
aka Grayman


>

 From: "Swordy" <swordworlder@earthlink.net>
> 
>      "anxiously awaiting word from Jeff Zeitlin (of Freelance Traveller) who 
> works for the NYC police dept. :("
> 
> 
>      Has anyone gotten a PING from Mr. Zeitlin?  Mr. Ramen has checked in, 
> fortunately.  There are reports of "massive" casulties among NYPD and FDNY 
> personnel.
>      Doesn't he work in some sort of computer capacity and not a uniformed 
> one?
> 
> 
>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
> 
> 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 00:26:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 101 13:35:58 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Re: Donating Blood
Message-ID: <200109121947.f8CJlmw00196@premier1.premier.net>

Hi all

I got this from an archiveing professor just now.
Its a list of "surivors" of the attack.  I have looked at
it and it has a few problems.  
These are the result of it being open to the 
so there are joke entries here and there.
But if it helps someone get more information on their love ones
it works for me.

http://www.ny.com/wtclist.html

Tim Reynolds




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 00:26:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 101 16:42:56 US/Central
Subject: [TML] PCs in the Big Picture
Message-ID: <200109172254.f8HMspw20018@premier1.premier.net>

> Ladies and Gentlemen,
> 
>      The horrific events of last Tuesday produced an odd tangent in my 
> thinking, even odd for a Whipsnade.
>      Just how involved are the PCs in your campaigns involved in the "Big 
> Picture"?
>      Using 911 as an example, would your PCs be simple passengers on one of 
> the hijacked flights or a group tracking the hijackers prior to the act or a 
> group after Bin Laden (IF he's behind this) himself?

I do not know if I would use the terms high powered games or lower power games 
when talking about this subject, Maybe High Politics/Low Politics would be 
better.  To me high power games are those where the PCs own 1000 ton patrol 
cruiser and have enough Power Armor to equip a company of mercs.

In either case, I run a mix game trying to do the classic Onion peel thing.  
Players love to know that they saved the Universe even if no else will ever 
know.  I mean this is role playing not your adverage day at work where you have 
to argue that the reason you did not pay your ship(car) payment on time was 
that the ship(car) fuel cost to much.  

Tim Reynolds




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 00:26:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 101 16:35:59 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Re: Red Storm Rising
Message-ID: <200109172247.f8HMltw19476@premier1.premier.net>


> > 
> > Also, IIRC, the critical shortage of oil in the USSR required that the oil
> > fields be captured quickly and _intact_, and the extreme measure of 
attacking
> > NATO was seen as enabling that goal.
> 
> Well that's one of the things that seemed daft. Going to war on two different 
> fronts on only one's existing oil stocks has to be twise a silly as going to 
> war on only one. Besides I never could buy that so much of the Soviet 
> porduction could be destroyed in one hit that this sort of thing would 
> necessary.
> 
> 

Ask the Germans about starting a war with one front just to deal with the 
orginal war in the first place.  Or even the Japan in WWII.  Based on these and 
probably alot of other cases I do not know Red Storm Rising is possible when 
looking at the Political Military side of things and not just either one by its 
self.  


Tim Reynolds



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 00:26:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 101 09:39:46 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Democracy?  Or not?
Message-ID: <200109191551.f8JFpfw02966@premier1.premier.net>


To be honest I am not sure if I am insulted by this or not.  It&#8217;s bad when 
after the 2000 elections everyone here said, thank god it was Florida and not 
us.

Go LSU Tigers.

OT:
I mean every time I build a third world nation/world or think of dirty politics 
I model it off of Louisiana.  Our leaders personalities make for great NPC 
personalities that you just love to hate.  We have bigots, crooks, con men, and 
a police force that was so corrupt at one time that FBI had to take over 
running New Orleans. The patron system is also alive and kicking down here. On 
other hand we actually work and party hard so there is a lot of fun.

So does anyone else use really leaders to models NPC?  Also I think the most 
corrupted systems would also be the most exciting systems?

Tim

> > Sorry, I couldn't let that go.  Taiwan is no more a republic than, say, 
> Louisiana under Huey Long.  Unless your definition of a republic includes 
> vote-buying, legislation by brute force, mafia control of large parts of 
> the government and very low accountability to the people.  Those things are 
> natural, I think, but far from a necessary part of a republic, and 
> certainly not unavoidable in the amounts that they are present here.  I 
> also don't think Taiwan is doomed to this kind of existence forever, but 
> certainly for a while at least.  Democratic values take a long time to 
> foster and mature, and Taiwan has only been a democracy for about 15 
> years.  Confucianism will take quite a while to dismantle.
> 
> -- Rachel
> 
> 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 00:26:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 101 13:07:26 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Spinward Marches Statistics
Message-ID: <200110021919.f92JJUX21034@premier1.premier.net>

This is cool bit of data.  my next question is what system are they in and who 
wants to draw up the stratgic plans to take them ?

> Hello Folks,
>   After taking a hard look at how many planets in the Spinward Marches have
> the ability to build TL15 (GURPS TRAVELLER TL12) ships, I got to wondering
> about how the Imperium would build its fleets.  The following information
> was gleaned from a GURPS TRAVELLER database.  The translation between the
> GURPS rules and the CT rules is that TL 9 ships include Traveller TL's
> 9,10, and 11 ships.  TL 10 ships include Traveller TL's 12 and 13.  TL 11
> ships include Traveller TL 14, and TL 12 equals Traveller TL 15.  The only
> star ports I included in checking via the database, were Class V (or
> Traveller Class A starports).  Class IV or Traveller class B starports of
> course, can build Battle riders and fighters.
> 
> These are the statistics of the Spinward Marches:
> 
> Starports able to build Jump 1 & 2 ships:		17	
	531,046,053 dTons/year
> Starports able to build Jump 3 & 4 Ships:		11	
	115,450,926 dTons/year
> Starports able to build Jump 5 Ships:		 1		 52,000,000 
dTons/year
> Starports able to build Jump 6 Ships:		 5		676,520,000 
dTons/year
> 
> These values are approximations of the TCS tonnages.  I took the population
> values (without including the population modifier, as this is not in my
> database right now) and subtracted 3 from them, and raising that to the
> 10th power.  Example: a population 9 world would result in a starport that
> could build 10^(9-3) or 1,000,000 dTons.  This is based on the formula that
> read something to the effect of P x pop/1000.  Ignoring P, it works out to
> Pop/1000, or 10^(pop-3).
> 
>        Hal
> 
> 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 00:26:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 101 13:10:29 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Question/Face to go by
Message-ID: <200110021922.f92JMXX21250@premier1.premier.net>

> At 05:10 PM 10/01/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >David Hackworth's mailing list reprinted a piece from the Sunday Times
> >concerning conditions in Afganistan.
> >
> >Anyone want to see it?
> 
> OK, somebody hold me back.  Please.
> 
> David Hackworth used to be a soldier.  In fact, at one time, he was held
> the distinction of being the most-decorated soldier in the Army.  Then he
> lost his nerve.  He's spent the last thirty years knocking down the force
> he left behind, usually without any real information.

Just so I am picturing this guy right is he the older guy with the gray crew 
cute.  I think he was Col in the Army.  I just can not put a name with a face.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 00:26:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 101 14:20:28 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Enough!
Message-ID: <200110152032.f9FKWfg23633@premier1.premier.net>

Hey Doug not to question the masters or anything but......


> >What makes this the first psionic wave?  The Universe is know to 
> >work in some cylces so maybe this is the second or the one 
> >thousand wve to come from the center.  Could it be that the wave 
> >had something to do with Grandfather's abilities.  Does this mean 
> >that there could actually be more then one grandfather around.  
> >Going on this how many waves, travelling at light speed,  could 
> >there have been if the galaxy is something like 4 billion years old?
> 
> Perhaps it is a regular event, every 300,000 years or so.  This would time
> the last wave with the Ancient's Final War.


I do not have a timeline handy, but wasnt this war only 10,000 years ago?
Now if the war was 300,000 years ago, and the current wave occures simo with 
the destruction of the 3rd Imperium we have some cause and effects going on.
Some how this brings a Star Treck plot thing to mind : )  




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 00:26:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 101 13:55:32 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Re: Magnetic tank armor
Message-ID: <200110162007.f9GK7kg02225@premier1.premier.net>

A question was asked

> >   BTW, does anyone have any estimates on how long the USACE would
> need to upgrade facilities to execute sealifts of armor brigades
> to Afghanistan in the current unpleasantness? :>

I do not know the exact timeing but I do know it will be shorter then the Gulf 
War's rough 6 month execuation time.  This is the results of several 
congressional and executive studies of the whole process and the shock at the 
amount of time it took to carry out the G.W.'s sealift.  I think we need to 
keep one thing in mind Afganistan is landlocked and I do not see US tanks 
rolling through Pakastain to get there.  

So this brings into airlift operations and the deploying of the Kittyhawk as a 
floating airlift base.  When you talk about medium armor I think it should be 
designd for airlift not sealift operations.  Nothing like having 2-3 medium 
tanks dropping out the back of a C-5 on top of the enemies position supported 
by a swarm of gunships and strike aircraft.  

Hmm OT  

I dont have any Space lift operations are covered pretty good




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 00:26:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 101 15:21:48 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Enough!
Message-ID: <200110162134.f9GLY2g07994@premier1.premier.net>

> > On 10/15/01 at 01:51 PM,  Mole <mole@solsec.org> said:
> > 
> >> Ummm... I keep getting these posts dated from 1940
> > 
> >> I think someone needs to check their date and time settings?
> > 
> > I suspect Tim is using a Y2K non-compliant email client...or we just have a
> > real timemachine going on. <g>
> > 
> > Eris
> 
> 
> If there were a time machine I'm sure it would be in the hands of those best
> capable of using it...Citizen...Have you spoken with your local monitor
> lately?
> 
At this time it would not be prudent for me to confirm or deny my possession of 
a time machine.  

Tim





From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 00:26:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 101 16:08:12 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Re: Magnetic tank armor
Message-ID: <200110182220.f9IMKQg03666@premier1.premier.net>

Hi everyone

> ....
> >So this brings into airlift operations and the deploying of the Kittyhawk as 
a floating airlift base.  

Ok though you might be able to deploy C130s from the Kittyhawk(remember it deck 
is bigger then a WWII carrier)  I was not referring to fix wing aircraft but to 
helicopter airlift.  However, FYI the DOD has looked into semi fixed naval 
vessels about the size of 3 aircraft carriers, that could launch a C17, and 
have like a pre-positioned Marine force.  When you realize that the current 
Assistant Secretary of State is one of the people arguing for such an idea then 
you see why the Kittyhawk is being deployed this way.  


>When you talk about medium armor I think it should be 


As far as this goes I am talking about near the positions with armor cable of 
fighting in non WWIII conditions for limited operations.  Also I was picturing 
in the future.  I was pointing out that airlifts if you can get the right combo 
of factors working is better then sealift, because it is faster.

OT

Maybe we can have a design contest to see who can develop the best assault 
units. This would use LBB 4 and GURPS Ground Forces



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 00:26:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 101 14:38:22 US/Central
Subject: [TML] You know you're an old Traveller when...
Message-ID: <200111052150.fA5Long20375@premier1.premier.net>


> >It then gets worse when they ask "When was this adventure written?", you
> check and 
> >reply 1981 to which they both respond "I wasn't even born then!"
> 
> My new secondary partner wasn't born when Traveller came out!  (Secondary
> partner: polyamory term for some you have a relationship with other than
> your primary.  Read your Heinlein.)
>

How about when you have characters "older" then some of the players in your 
group.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 00:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jul 31 23:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <a6.29f91dee.2a7a2a7a@aol.com>

 >> Fighter crews, sent out in the manner that the original post
 >> specified, will know otherwise--that there's little chance they as
 >> individuals will make any difference at all, and that they're almost
 >> certainly going to die uselessly.
 >
 >You keep saying that, but the original post did not.  It stated that
 >100 fighters for 1 capital ship may be worth it.  What it _didn't_
 >state was how large the attacking force of fighters is.  Sure, it
 >could be 100--but it could also be 1,000.

Always appreciate having my memory challenged.  The original post from packet 
#832 was as follows:

>For HG style fights, I added a "visual range" range band.  
>You have to spend at least one turn at short range before 
>closing to visual (essentially, you have to win initiative 
>twice).  At visual range, weapons automatically hit without a 
>roll.  Sand becomes a weapon similar to a plasma gun at 
>visual.  Note that if there are more fighters attacking than 
>there are defensive batteries at visual range, something is 
>going to get through.  So I added a single autocritical 
>regardless of armor or ship size for any nuclear weapons that 
>get through.  And to make that interesting, I set a limit as 
>to how many warheads a damper can try and stop - one per 
>factor.
>
>Suddenly, the small, cheap fighter with a nuclear missile and 
>a laser, being flown by a human with a mediocre computer 
>becomes a possibility in navies that are willing to put up 
>with the losses - a few hundred fighter pilots in trade for a 
>major capital ship.

This tactic is presented not as a desperation move, but an ordinary one to be 
implemented if said navy can put up with it.  To which I responded that no 
fighter pilot community would tolerate it.  Even if the attacking squadron is 
originally 1000, after two capital ships they'll be combat ineffective using 
this tactic, and there will be NO volunteers to replace them until the tactic 
is discarded.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 00:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jul 31 23:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <e6.2be0ca41.2a7a3051@aol.com>

 >When I was stationed at Ft. Campbell, we had numerous 
 >nighttime helicopter accidents, usually involving more than 
 >one helicopter at once, and usually killing the passengers 
 >(we infantrymen) in decidedly horrific fashion.  I remember 
 >taking someone's entrails out of a tree.  But we didn't stop 
 >riding in helicopters, nor did we have mutinous discussions 
 >about how we would stop riding until they stopped flying 
 >between the trees at night.

You would have if 90 out of 100 crashed between breakfast and lunch.

Look, I appreciate what you're saying, and I understand the drive to climb 
that ladder, and I understand service to country.  But there is a big 
difference between what you are saying and what was implied in the original 
post.  People take up being paratroops or rangers even though they know the 
job is potentially hazardous because they know it is not always and forever 
hazardous.  These same people would NOT take up such a job if they were told, 
"Each and every time we send you out the vast majority of you are not coming 
back."  Who would lead such people?  Who would train them?  There would be no 
survivors left to do so.  I'll say again regarding the original post:  any 
pack of pilots that would volunteer to die by the hundreds to kill one 
capital ship as a regular ordinary tactic will all be at level 0.  There will 
be no experienced person to train or lead them.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 00:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jul 31 23:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <19e.638001c.2a7a328e@aol.com>

 >Just turning to the first page of world listings in GT:Rim of Fire, I
 >see that Darrukesh has 8.2 billion sophonts.  Note that a capital ship
 >can in theory do quite a handy job on a planet's surface, if desired.
 >Now, as Grand Admiral of the Darrukesh fleet, would you expend
 >1.22e-6% of your world's population to prevent that from occuring?

You are discussing survival situations.  The original post concerned an 
ordinary standard tactic to be employed every time "if the navy can tolerate 
the losses".
They won't.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 00:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jul 31 23:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <ac.2b2232c0.2a7a3323@aol.com>

 >>tcs neglects the most important fleet construction factor of all.
 >>go back to tcs and re-read the rules.
 >
 >Tell you what - you go _play_ some hg/tcs, then come back and
 >talk about people reading tcs.

Sure.  I'll play you -- if you can handle it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 00:48:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jul 31 23:48:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <27.2b4e7fcb.2a7a338a@aol.com>

 >Rock, Paper, Scissors.  Your calculations don't go far enough.

Could be.  Let's find out.  Show me.  Can you handle it?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 00:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jul 31 23:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <12e.1530f6bf.2a7a34a4@aol.com>

 >>by the way, just what is orbital bombardment and why does
 >>it require some special ship?
 >
 >It may require less (or different) capability than that
 >required to stand against a major capital ship.  If I can
 >make two or three ships minimally suited to orbital
 >fire-support missions for every one of your jack-of-all
 >trades dreadnaughts, then I can run two or three times as
 >many ground assault operations at the same time as you can.

Tonnages!  I want tonnages!  And I want to know every reason why you put in 
what you did and left out what you did.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 00:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jul 31 23:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <196.abe40d6.2a7a3514@aol.com>

 >>  between nukes and meson guns, what else could anyone want?
 >
 >They might want more choices besides Dreadnaughts.

Show me your choices.  I'd love to see 'em.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 01:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 00:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <12d.1506ac4f.2a7a379b@aol.com>

 >>there is one other defense you're forgetting. (against meson guns)
 >
 >Agility?  It reduces hits, doesn't block damage from them.
 >Or are you talking about something from the "house
 >rules" you've been talking from all along, instead of
 >the rules everyone else has been using?

Neither, actually.  Oh, and I would really like to hear your specific 
objections to each specific house rule.  I really do want to hear from your 
superior wisdom.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 01:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 00:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <f3.1ed9f0cb.2a7a396a@aol.com>

 >> >Your super-dreadnaught is one "Fuel Tanks Shattered"
 >> >hit away from being dead in space, no matter how buff
 >> >you make it - and there are Cruisers (or packs
 >> >of them) that can deal such damage to it.
 >>
 >>wow.
 >
 >Yes, wow.  High-tech societies should be very, very careful
 >about their reasons for getting mad enough to smack major
 >fleet elements into each other.  Even the winner is probably
 >going to bleed white.

Unreserved agreement here.  Oh wise teacher, I seek experience, unworthy as I 
am.  My poor virgin Spinward Marches Colonial Fleet awaits.  Battle me!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 01:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 00:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <9a.295bcf54.2a7a3abb@aol.com>

 >the best, and I mean the best, adventures are those that 
 >are "two party" adventures - one party of players against 
 >another.  The referee can never buy or write a one-party 
 >adventure that is as tense, hilarious, or as emotional as 
 >a "two party".
 >
 >Especially if the people in both parties know each other as 
 >gamers.  The referee doesn't have to do all of the thinking 
 >for one side anymore.

(mental eyes opening wide as possibilities come into view)  Now that _is_ a 
good idea.  Has this been around for a while and I've missed it, or is it 
something your group came up with?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 01:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 00:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Acceptable losses
Message-ID: <10d.15a5705f.2a7a3b9c@aol.com>

 >Some people I know do *not* believe the casualty figures from 
 >WW I.  They insist that it's simply not possible.

England had the custom of entire villages and towns volunteering to form one 
entire unit, which would fight together.  Frequently they were all gunned 
down together, and an entire village or town would lose most of its young men 
all at once.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 01:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 00:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <8d.1bfa1383.2a7a4253@aol.com>

 >The point of my video game comment was to illustrate that it's not
 >unrealistic that fighter pilot skills might conceivably be learned from
 >games.  I still believe that to be the case; you've certainly not
 >demonstrated otherwise.

I can't.  You lack the experience I might appeal to to do so.  For that 
matter, so do I -- I'm not a pilot.  But I've seen what works and what 
doesn't in a military.  But you haven't even seen that.

Try contacting a real fighter pilot sometime.  Ask him if fighter pilot 
skills might be learned from sophisitcated games.  Ask your local recruiter 
-- maybe he has a pilot come in once in a while to help him recruit.  Or 
heck, you could even call a nearby AFB or naval base, contact the liaison, 
and ask to speak to a pilot for ten minutes or so.  But it would be better if 
you can look him in the eye as he talks to you.

 >> He will shuck and jive, pretend equipment failures, or run.  He most
 >> certainly won't volunteer for that sort of duty again.
 >
 >That's a pretty low opinion of a fellow officer

A fellow officer, he says!  They wouldn't be officers, they'd be cannon 
fodder.  And they'd know it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 01:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith Mormon minion of Arioch)
Date: Thu Aug  1 00:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <f3.1ed9f0cb.2a7a396a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000501c2392c$7b7b0800$6f7ba8c0@kenneith93j41k>

That is the whole argument of detant, that the cost would be too high if
both sides went to war.
ken

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comics
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you
http://www.geocities.com/J_Elric_Smith/Index.html
----- Original Message -----
From: <Flykiller@aol.com>
> Unreserved agreement here.  Oh wise teacher, I seek experience, unworthy
as I
> am.  My poor virgin Spinward Marches Colonial Fleet awaits.  Battle me!
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 01:56:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 00:56:27 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <bf.241eecb7.2a7a4368@aol.com>

 >>asking hundreds of them at a time to give up their lives all 
 >>at once, just to make a tactic work, in one segment of a 
 >>single battle, is not an insignificant outlay for THEM.  
 >>(push button) "go do this, guys."  (lights 
 >>flash) "ok."  it doesn't work that way.
 > 
 >See the battle of Midway.  The low level torpedo attack 
 >planes that sacrificed themselves to Japanese anti-aircraft 
 >fire so that the dive bombers would have a chance.

Yes, with a huge Japanese fleet threatening their homeland and only them 
standing between the yellow peril and their families.  It was not, however, a 
standard tactic, employed "because they'll tolerate it".

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 02:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 01:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <43.f41b3de.2a7a45aa@aol.com>

 >HMS Glow-worm ramming the Admiral Hipper comes to mind. The destroyer's 
 >mass
 >was literally the only thing that might hurt the cruiser, and if she wasn't
 >hurt then the convoy would be massacred. Her skipper knew his ship would
 >sink; he knew many (but probably not all) of his crew would die. But the
 >decision was made in the face of the enemy, for a clear goal - to save
 >hundreds of helpless merchant seamen. Would the crew have accepted an
 >Admiralty policy of "we're not giving you torpedoes. You're to close and
 >ram, then sink"? In desperate times, some people actually would. But, say,
 >in 1934? Nope.

Thanks.  I was beginning to think I was the only one here who thought this 
way.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 02:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Aug  1 01:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Ring
References: <20020801000225.15828.154.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D48ED45.AD92306F@earthlink.net>

Glenn M. Goffin reminded us:
> 
> From: "Mosaic Tapestry" <n2sami@attbi.com>
> To: "Traveller Mailing List" <tml@travellercentral.com>
> Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 23:10:18 -0700
> Organization: often equals Disorgainization
> Subject: [TML] Traveller Ring
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> This is the semi-occasional irregular announcement of the existence
> of
> the Traveller Ring. Available at:
> 
> http://www.ringsurf.com/netring?ring=traveller;action=info


Yessss, we wantss our preciousss! Must have preciousss!

Oh.

Sorry, wrong ring.

David S.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 02:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 01:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] [OT] comic book universe battles
Message-ID: <129.1523d6e2.2a7a48bb@aol.com>

 >> Actually, when I watched the movie last year in one of my film classes
 >> ("Film Genres 160: Science-Fiction Cinema"), I realized that it can be 
read
 >> as an argument _against_ the politics of Heinlein's books. Since the book
 >> seems to say, in effect, "A military dictatorship isn't necessarily that
 >> bad!",
 >
 >It seems to say that to some people. The rest of us sit there wondering
 >if they read the same book we did.

I read the book and saw the movie, and I didn't hear anything for or against 
the portrayed government type in either one.  They just portrayed it, and 
left it at that.  I think that evaluations of what the book and movie were 
trying to say are simply reflections of the viewers' own judgements, like an 
inkblot test.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 02:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 01:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
Message-ID: <cf.1abcc5f7.2a7a49d6@aol.com>

 >In Washington, D.C., the homicide department is in complete 
 >shambles.  I sometimes wonder if the powers that be intend 
 >for it to be so.  Cases are lost, forgotten, misplaced...

The department reflects the community that it polices.

You are aware of what Cincinatti is going through now?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 02:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 01:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Acceptable losses
Message-ID: <d5.1b14d150.2a7a5048@aol.com>

 >Great reply. But I think you ignored one area.

Only one?  I did better than I thought!

>While a lot of credit is given to soldiers fighting for some greater, nobler
>idea, studies have repeatedly pointed to the formation of small, tightly
>knit groups as the key to successful armies.  Men rarely risk death and
>dismemberment for higher ideals.

Yeah, I keep hearing this.  I believe it, but I can't see it.  I'm one of 
those who looks to the noble idea.  I know the other tribal/herd thing is out 
there, and I know what it is and how it works, but it's a complete blank spot 
to me personally.

>Many scholars have pointed to the effectiveness of veteran troops over green
>one by observing that these small unit bonds are much stronger between men
>who have shared the rigors of war, and it is that which makes them more
>effective and willing to go the 'extra mile'

I read somewhere that during the War Between the States the Northern armies 
would place new recruits in entirely new brigades, which made them unreliable 
at first, while the Southern armies would install their new recruits in 
established armies, which steadied their new recruits greatly.

Thanks.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 03:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Thu Aug  1 02:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] John Strain where have you gone?
In-Reply-To: <m3bs8ngokq.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPCELCELAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Hi John,

are you still here? The emails I sent to you regarding the graphics you want
to use have been bouncing. Something about invalid return address.

Could you try sending me another email

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 03:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 02:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Website Update
Message-ID: <b0.2a4c8aff.2a7a55c1@aol.com>

 Which works better for you?

personally I prefer having all the data next to the map, rather than having 
the map expand away from it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 03:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 02:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <158.11c679eb.2a7a5fd1@aol.com>

 >> too, in a capital ship only the bridge crew has any
 >> view of the slaughter taking place, and the captain 
 >>(assumedly an experienced and dedicated older 
 >> man) only has to control himself and them (they also
 >> being assumedly experienced and dedicated older 
 >> men).  
 >
 >Wrong, wrong, wrong.

echo.

>If half your friends get sucked
>out into space you know there screwed. Sure you might
>think only your section is being hit, but you are
>probably smarter than that.

well, usually by that time the ship is fried anyway.  mutiny all you want -- 
no-one will notice anymore.

>And whats with the all
>male bridge crew?

What's the matter?  You don't like guys?

>Today many western navies are
>getting more female sailors

Yeah, I've seen 'em.  True story:  two female reservists on the gallery deck, 
looking lost and bored and a little nervous.  One of 'em suddenly brightens, 
turns to the other and says, "Let's go to the ship's mall!"  The other lights 
up with happiness and they head for the ladder down to the store.  It was 
almost more than I could take.

>and Trav is supposed to
>be a non-sexist universe!

Traveller is fantasy.

>All he has to do is launch his missiles and run! He is
>only one ship of many. The odds are probably in favor
>of him surviving. It wasn't in the original post that
>casualties among the fighters has high.

Yes it was.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 03:57:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug  1 02:57:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <196.abe40d6.2a7a3514@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002601c23943$4e0f1ac0$6e09bd50@martinjd>

>  >They might want more choices besides Dreadnaughts.
>
> Show me your choices.  I'd love to see 'em.

Low-end ships so you can do all your jobs within your budget maybe? Patrol
ships and tankers and whatever you plan to escort the talkers with. The USN,
for example, has other ships than carriers or attack subs (whichever you
consider to be the capital ship). Most navies have some high-end combat
ships and low-end workhorses.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 04:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug  1 03:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <8d.1bfa1383.2a7a4253@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003b01c23943$a8f1b4c0$6e09bd50@martinjd>



> >The point of my video game comment was to illustrate that it's not
>  >unrealistic that fighter pilot skills might conceivably be learned from
>  >games.  I still believe that to be the case; you've certainly not
>  >demonstrated otherwise.
>
> I can't.  You lack the experience I might appeal to to do so.  For that
> matter, so do I -- I'm not a pilot.  But I've seen what works and what
> doesn't in a military.  But you haven't even seen that.

I play Tekken against my training partner quite a lot. But you know? We get
out fighting skills from hitting one another for real. Pushing buttons just
doesn't give the feedback. Or the blood and snot.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 04:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 03:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] juries
Message-ID: <108.15a4adbc.2a7a6208@aol.com>

 >I've got to say that I have very little confidence in the present U.S. legal
 >system. I don't mean in a political way. I just don't think that an
 >adversarial system is all that good for determining guilt.

It's about as good as you'll get.

>Amateur juries
>seem to me to be ill equipped to handle many kinds of cases.

True.  And irrelevant to why they exist.  Juries aren't meant to be 
professional, quite the opposite.  Juries are meant to be a last and final 
check and balance against governmental power over individual citizens.  The 
government can't put anyone in jail unless they can get a bunch of amateur 
citizens to agree.  It's preferable to the alternative.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 04:08:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug  1 03:08:04 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <19e.638001c.2a7a328e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <005201c23944$b5f3ac40$6e09bd50@martinjd>



> >Just turning to the first page of world listings in GT:Rim of Fire, I
>  >see that Darrukesh has 8.2 billion sophonts.  Note that a capital ship
>  >can in theory do quite a handy job on a planet's surface, if desired.
>  >Now, as Grand Admiral of the Darrukesh fleet, would you expend
>  >1.22e-6% of your world's population to prevent that from occuring?
>
> You are discussing survival situations.  The original post concerned an
> ordinary standard tactic to be employed every time "if the navy can
tolerate
> the losses".
> They won't.

Damn right they won't. I chaired this year's Naval Force Protection
convention at the Hatton. One of the speakers was demonstrating BULLFIGHTER,
an advanced decoy system. One point he made was that this system makes more
missiles miss your ship, but often by a smaller margin than older offboard
countermeasures. This was considered entirely acceptable, despite the
(small)  risk that a decoyed missile might still hit another part of the
ship - by accident.

In the cold analysis of the conference room, the assembled personnel (from a
rear-admiral down) agreed that a greater proportion of missiles decoyed was
a very good thing because, as someone put it: surviving to carry out your
mission is necessary. Surviving to do it again is good. But surviving to go
home and collect the medals is what every sailor wants. And he wants to KNOW
that measures have been taken to ensure he will. In almost all situations,
force survivability is necessary to morale.

IE Units will NOT enter routine combat situations where they know they will
be massacred.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 04:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug  1 03:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <193.ac0a39b.2a7a20cf@aol.com>
Message-ID: <007201c23945$6b27eae0$6e09bd50@martinjd>

> >Try the loss rates for some of the RAF's 1000 bomber night attacks,
>  >then. Over 100 bombers in a night wasn't exceptional (IIRC some were
>  >near the 200 mark) and while that rate was unsustainable it wasn't for
>  >lack of volunteers, but because aircraft take time to make and crews
>  >take time to train.
>
> Imminent threats to national survival, of course, change casualty rate
> acceptance.  But the original subject was hundreds of fighter pilots for
the
> one or two lucky shots to kill a capital ship as a standard by-the-book
> tactic.  Never happen.

Besides, bomber crews did so many missions and then OUT. Your odds of
getting killed on any one of those missions were relatively small, but they
stacked up. However, you *knew* you'd probably get out before your number
came up. Whether it was true or not is another matter, but you knew.... if
the odds had been 50% chance of death per mission, and you'll keep on being
sent in again and again, well...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 04:21:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 03:21:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Acceptable losses
Message-ID: <18e.baee50e.2a7a654a@aol.com>

 >I think the idea is to look at new weapons and technology with the idea that
 >standard concepts from the last well may no longer apply.  Certainly, it is
 >impossible to anticipate change.

It is if you are the one driving it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 04:22:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 03:22:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
In-Reply-To: <20020731190152.7587.68152.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020731190152.7587.68152.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <mh2ikusl9irreg7c1m598n5h868l8saqmo@4ax.com>

On Wed, 31 Jul 2002 12:01:52 -0700, "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
wrote:

>WriteFool says

>>From the standpoint of pure economic and management 
>>efficiency I would have to agree, but on the other hand by 
>>creating the traditions and institutional memory of never 
>>giving up on a case and instilling that in to each 
>>generation of policefolk, it might help foster a certain 
>>determination as well as giving some comfort to victims' 
>>families that everything can and will be done and 
>>their losses and justice will not be forgotten.

>I would imagine that such perseverance, or lack thereof, 
>varies from planet to planet across the Imperium.  While they 
>might do things like this on, say, Regina, who can say how 
>they run things - even at the Imperial capital.

>In Washington, D.C., the homicide department is in complete 
>shambles.  I sometimes wonder if the powers that be intend 
>for it to be so.  Cases are lost, forgotten, misplaced...

>And the coroner's office is a complete joke.  It's a sore 
>point for the residents, but nothing, I repeat, nothing has 
>been done to remedy the situation.  

It would be unprofessional of me to comment on how the City of Washington
has mismanaged its police force - and in fact most municipal agencies - by
placing political correctness above professionalism and qualification, so I
will not make any such comments - including not commenting on how a
Washington police officer can be hired with felony convictions on his/her
record, provided that none were more recent than ten years ago at the time
of application.

Nor will I criticize the voters of that city for being stupid enough to
re-elect as mayor a convicted drug dealer, and then expect the tone of the
city to be anything other than what it is.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 05:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 04:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <20020801043903.8532.97422.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020801043903.8532.97422.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <av4ikugatpklat65etuddk08afchu3ve4e@4ax.com>

On Wed, 31 Jul 2002 21:39:03 -0700, "Paul Kerby" <ybrekp@mtco.com> wrote:

>Painted on the wall of the mess hall of the mess hall of the 2nd Armored
>Division(FWD) in Garlstedt Germany...

>"The purpose of the American soldier is not to die for his country, but
>to make the other bastards die for his."  George S. Patton 

And Patton got it wrong, at that - the purpose of the American soldier is
to _severely_maim_ the other bastards.  If you kill him, they can just
leave the body until it's safe to come get it and give it a burial.

If you just maim him, they have to devote manpower and resources to getting
him out of the line of fire, and trying to put him back together.  Which
means less that they can throw at you.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 05:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  1 04:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <200208011139.LVF00463@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>From: Flykiller@aol.com  
>Subject: Re: [TML] sword vs shotgun  
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
> >the best, and I mean the best, adventures are those that 
> >are "two party" adventures - one party of players against 
> >another.  The referee can never buy or write a one-party 
> >adventure that is as tense, hilarious, or as emotional as 
> >a "two party".
> >
> >Especially if the people in both parties know each other 
as 
> >gamers.  The referee doesn't have to do all of the 
thinking 
> >for one side anymore.
>
>(mental eyes opening wide as possibilities come into view)  
Now that _is_ a 
>good idea.  Has this been around for a while and I've missed 
it, or is it 
>something your group came up with?

It's an old idea.  And, it's a very good way to deal with 
those in the playing group who want to be sociopaths.  The 
referee doesn't have to kill them - the other party can try 
their best.  In my case, however, it came out even more often 
than not - being the "good" party doesn't make you 
bulletproof.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 05:45:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Thu Aug  1 04:45:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Website Update
Message-ID: <memo.512928@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <959hkuk7om6pvavlofnoevvto9cvuejv20@4ax.com>
Greetings dear hearts, especially Eris.

It's quite nice. The main sub-sector charts come out nicely, on a 17" 
monitor, might wrap awkwardly on a smaller one.

Devonia - overflows sideways - this seems to be due to the main table 
being set at width="123%" quite unnecessarily. The cells inside are set to 
a total of 100%, and the actual size of the image used would fit (at least 
on the 17" monitor).

You also might want to check the 'Body' tag, put in some elements to 
control colours, etc. Adding in that background from the sub-sector pages 
would be nice too.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 05:46:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  1 04:46:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <200208011145.LVF00804@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Flykiller says
>Yeah, I've seen 'em.  True story:  two female reservists on 
>the gallery deck, looking lost and bored and a little 
>nervous.  One of 'em suddenly brightens, turns to the other 
>and says, "Let's go to the ship's mall!"  The other lights 
>up with happiness and they head for the ladder down to the 
>store.  It was almost more than I could take.
>

I remember doing OPFOR against a Pershing missile platoon.  I 
distinctly remember a 6 foot female soldier and her shorter 
female AG running UP a 400 ft hill with an M-60 to try and 
get around on my left.  Fast, and with some sense of what she 
was doing.  I couldn't get a clear sight picture, and as I 
estimated she was reaching the top of the hill off to my 
left, I displaced, along with my friends.

Turns out she was from the motor pool.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 05:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Thu Aug  1 04:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Kit (as our British friends say)
In-Reply-To: <d4.1b055146.2a7a030a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020801115445.5089.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>

--- GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> 
> One of my favorite bits of reading is a papyrus
> detailing the pay record of a 
> Roman soldier in Egypt ca. 250 AD There are
> deductions for uniform and 
> equipment, mandatory deposit to the unit savings
> bank, contributions to the 
> burial fund (insurance) and the unit Saturnalia
> feast (held around the same 
> time as Christmas), and stoppages to pay for a wine
> bar demolished in the 
> course of a brawl. Every soldier I have ever shown
> it to marvels at the line 
> on the bottom:
> 
> "Copy 2 of 3, for unit archives"
> 
> LKW
> 
  >>
  OMG!!!!! The, the, the......[sigh]......

    MACessna
  >>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 05:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 04:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <1742d8175093.1750931742d8@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 11:41 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] warship optimization in traveller

> From: Flykiller@aol.com
> 
>     "All ships have a large internal cargo capacity enabling them 
> to 
> operate unsupported for up to 10 months.  In addition each fleet task
> force has accompanying supply vessels (with cargo sufficient to 
> completely 
> restock each vessel including themselves),..."
> 
> 
> Sir,
> 
>     What supply rules are you using and where did you find them?
> 
>     "...hospital ships,..."
> 
>     How do you design hospital ships?  How much does a surgical 
> suite 
> displace and how many do you need?  What about ICU berths?  How 
> much in 
> specialized stores will these ships need?

For JTAS subscribers, the recently-completed starship design contest 
(Contest #10) had some excellent hospital ships, albeit mostly using 
design sequences other than HG2.  Note, though, that the winning design 
(not mine, sad to say) was built using HG2.

<<snip>>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 06:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Houghton)
Date: Thu Aug  1 05:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
In-Reply-To: <mh2ikusl9irreg7c1m598n5h868l8saqmo@4ax.com>
References: <20020731190152.7587.68152.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <mh2ikusl9irreg7c1m598n5h868l8saqmo@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020801120705.GA5092@saltmine.radix.net>

Howdy!

On Thu, Aug 01, 2002 at 06:20:46AM -0400, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Jul 2002 12:01:52 -0700, "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
> wrote:
[snip]
> 
> >And the coroner's office is a complete joke.  It's a sore 
> >point for the residents, but nothing, I repeat, nothing has 
> >been done to remedy the situation.  
> 
> It would be unprofessional of me to comment on how the City of Washington
> has mismanaged its police force - and in fact most municipal agencies - by
> placing political correctness above professionalism and qualification, so I
> will not make any such comments - including not commenting on how a
> Washington police officer can be hired with felony convictions on his/her
> record, provided that none were more recent than ten years ago at the time
> of application.

Of course, since I do not work for a police department, there is no
professional courtesy to impede me from agreeing wholeheartedly.
> 
> Nor will I criticize the voters of that city for being stupid enough to
> re-elect as mayor a convicted drug dealer, and then expect the tone of the
> city to be anything other than what it is.
> 

Actually, Barry was not convicted of dealing, just possession ('Bitch
set me up!').

...and then have a mayor who can't manage to have competent and honest
people gather 2500 _valid_ signatures of _real residents_ to get his 
name on the primary ballot...

I may have the governmental entities wrong, but the entity that certified
the petitions to (I think) the board of elections (or whatever they call
it) said that hizonner had enough signatures even after they had tossed
a bunch of petitions for fraud (with about 10000 signatures presented).
The board refused to accept that certification because of the great
number of the remainder that were (ostensibly) gathered by the Bishops,
who each were noted to have provided a large number of the petitions 
that had been tossed for fraudulent signatures. Now hizonner is almost
certain to be stuck running a write-in campaign for the primary.

I'll note that that at the same time DC was reelecting a druggie, the
Virginia GOP was trying to get a liar and oathbreaker elected to the
senate (Ollie North, found guilty by a jury of his peers of a felony --
lying to Congress), and the voters in Maryland rejected a bid by a
convicted former state assemblyman for reelection.

obTrav: well...a political campaign anywhere would be livened up by
a little controversy...or a politician running for reelection from his
jail cell... 

yours,
Michael
-- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 06:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Brian Caball)
Date: Thu Aug  1 05:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Kit (as our British friends say)
In-Reply-To: <20020801115445.5089.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020801115445.5089.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <02080113001703.22132@avlendris>

> > "Copy 2 of 3, for unit archives"
>   OMG!!!!! The, the, the......[sigh]......

This seems to be flying right over my head... is that what the modern 
equivalents also say or something?

-Brian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 06:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Thu Aug  1 05:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <F63cEcLsXJB7oDaSeXn000225a2@hotmail.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote, in many posts:
>You are discussing survival situations.  The original post
>concerned an ordinary standard tactic to be employed every time
>"if the navy can tolerate the losses". They won't.

What's the difference, considering what a starfleet can
do, between "ordinary" situations and "survival" situations?
If two main fleets are banging heads for real, there *will*
be planetary populations (the ownership of, if not the lives
of) at stake.

>Sure.  I'll play you -- if you can handle it.

This is a paper-and-pencil *game* we are talking about.
"Handling it" is just a matter of whether I choose to play
or not.  This ain't full-contact team biathalon here.

>  >Rock, Paper, Scissors.  Your calculations don't go far enough.
>
>Could be.  Let's find out.  Show me.  Can you handle it?

It amuses me far more to watch you beg.

>Tonnages!  I want tonnages!  And I want to know every reason
>why you put in what you did and left out what you did.

Like this, for example.

>Show me your choices.  I'd love to see 'em.

My choice is to let someone else put up with you during
your education.

>I really do want to hear from your superior wisdom.

My "superior wisdom" tells me to sit back and chuckle at
you for a while.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
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http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 06:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 05:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
Message-ID: <20020801123223.5AA10451A@mo130uhou.palm.net>

Rob Davenport <rgd@infinet.com> wrote:
>	Ed Wood's "Starship Troopers" 

Kenji Schwartz gave a good rant compairing ST to an Ed Wood movie.
You can find it on my SciFi sig quote page. 


>-- 
>Rob Davenport -- rgd at infinet dot com 
>More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases: 
> Spero nos familiares mansuros. 
> I hope we'll still be friends. 

----------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 07:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Thu Aug  1 06:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Warships
In-Reply-To: <15b.11cdff0f.2a79e836@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D49DB0E.15430.8A1F01@localhost>

On 31 Jul 2002, at 21:26, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> Very good, and I mostly agree.  But please post a tonnage allocation for such
> an interface combat ship.  I'd love to see what you mean by "designed for it"

Well here's one I knocked up quickly. Doubtless its far from optimal, but 
you'll get the idea.

Ship: Terror
Class: Erebus
Type: Bomb Ketch
Architect: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
Tech Level: 15

USP
         BK-H9059J3-L59005-55545-0 MCr 5,624.770 8 KTons
Bat Bear             1   1 15118   Crew: 110
Bat                  1   1 15118   TL: 15

Cargo: 170 Fuel: 720.000 EP: 720 Agility: 5 Shipboard Security Detail: 8 
Marines: 25 Drop Capsules: 140
Craft: 2 x 50T Cutters
Fuel Treatment: On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/9fib Computer 1 x Bridge 1 x Factor 9 Meson Screen

Architects Fee: MCr 56.048   Cost in Quantity: MCr 4,503.816


Detailed Description

HULL
8,000.000 tons standard, 112,000.000 cubic meters, Buffered Planetoid 
Configuration

CREW
15 Officers, 70 Ratings, 25 Marines

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 5G Manuever, Power plant-9, 720.000 EP, Agility 5

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/9fib Computer
1 Backup Bridge, 1 Model/9fib Backup Computer

HARDPOINTS
3 50-ton bays, 50 Hardpoints

ARMAMENT
1 50-ton Meson Bay (Factor-4), 1 50-ton Particle Accelerator Bay (Factor-
5), 40 Triple Missile Turrets organised into 8 Batteries (Factor-5), 3 Triple 
Beam Laser Turrets organised into 1 Battery (Factor-5), 5 Dual Fusion Gun 
Turrets organised into 5 Batteries (Factor-5)

DEFENCES
1 50-ton Repulsor Bay (Factor-5), 2 Triple Sandcaster Turrets organised 
into 1 Battery (Factor-5), Meson Screen (Factor-9), Armoured Hull (Factor-
20)
1 Meson Screen Backup (Factor-9)

CRAFT
2 50.000 ton Cutters (Crew of 1, Cost of MCr 10.000)

FUEL
720.000 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
No Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
58 Staterooms, 140 Drop Capsule Launchers, 170 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
1 Missile Magazine (100.000 tons, Crew 0, Cost MCr 10.000)

COST
MCr 5,660.818 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 56.048), MCr 4,483.816 
in Quantity, plus MCr 20.000 of Carried Craft

CONSTRUCTION TIME
156 Weeks Singly, 125 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
Important factors
1) Planetary assaults are planned and this ship is not intended for line of 
battle work therefore a rider is optimal, and endurance functions (eg 
supplies, reloads etc) can be moved to the tender.
2) The buffered planetoid configuration allows sufficent armour to render the 
vessel immune to all but meson fire and gives good protection against 
meson fire
3) Since the ship is operating in orbit, minimal agility is acceptable
4) The jump capsules allow rapid evacuation and recovery by friendly 
vessels
5) Since the ships is immune to missile fire due to the heavy armour, 
nuclear dampers are unneccessary
6) The backup meson screen, computer and bridge extend the surviability
7) The primary armarment of missiles allows a wide range of deadfall 
weaponry
8) The single PA is for use against vacuum targets

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 07:07:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 06:07:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Published Trav Authors
Message-ID: <1b62a01b63e3.1b63e31b62a0@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 11:56 am
Subject: Re: [TML] Published Trav Authors

> At 12:21 PM 7/30/2002 +1000, you wrote:
> >Yahhhhhh! The Citizens of the Imperium website
> >accepted my patron encounter. So now I am being
> >published (online) by an official Trav lisencee. Where
> >do I send away for my offcial Trav Authors flying
> >scarf and tweed jacket set? ;P I can also get in all
> >the really classy bars! 
> 
> Go to the corner of Third and Main (doesn't matter in what city.)  
> Look for
> a man wearing a black "I Wished For GDSM And All I Got Was This 
> Lousy +3
> T-Shirt" Nethack shirt.  If he is eating pepperoni pizza, it is 
> safe to
> approach.  Say "I understand the penguins are wintering in St 
> Moritz."  He
> will say "No, it is to touristy.  They prefer Telluride."  Your 
> final sign
> will be to tug on your right earlobe and say "Penguins? I meant 
> the Royal
> Family. It is hard to tell them apart. Or maybe the Osbournes."

Hmmm.  They must have changed the recognition codes again.  At least, 
that's not the recognition sequence I was given after _101 
Corporations_ was published.  Sadly, I was mobilized for Sinai before I 
could be formally initiated.  Perhaps next year, ideally at BayCon 
(assuming I'm not mobilized yet again) :-(.

At least I won't have to take Greyhound from Baton Rouge for my next 
BayCon, since my Bosnia earnings allowed me to buy a used minivan and 
set it up as a one-man RV....
> 
> If this is carried out to the agent's satisfaction, you will be 
> drugged,blindfolded, and taken to the Traveller Writers' Secret 
> UndergroundHeadquarters.  There, you will be prepared for 
> initiation.  Please let the
> nice doctors know your blood type *before* the test of the Pit of 
> RabidWeasels and Equally Rabid Editors.

Ah, but that takes all the challenge out of it.

<<snip>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 07:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn Crawford)
Date: Thu Aug  1 06:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Starship Troopers
Message-ID: <F10888MMAv7Nf4086xB00003354@hotmail.com>

George Lucas' Starship Troopers

Wesa powah infantree gonna die?

Far be it from me to question your stupid civilisation or dumb customs...
S. Fry


_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 07:40:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Thu Aug  1 06:40:04 2002
Subject: N-dimensional law-levels (was Re: [TML] sword vs shotgun)
In-Reply-To: <200207311911.13195.red@archonet.com>
Message-ID: <000001c23961$00f0b0a0$6501a8c0@Darla>

DGP's World Builder's handbook detailed law levels into sub-levels for
Weapons, Trade, Criminal Law, Civil Law and Personal Freedom, which
seems like a reasonable breakdown.

Perhaps the TAS publications use weapons as the published law level so
travelers can have an idea about what they can strap up with before they
hit dirt...

TWB



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 09:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Aug  1 08:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <F137of0aYhHnKZ1nSIz0000ee76@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     The increasingly goofy warship optimization thread sent me off waddling 
the 'Net courtesy of Google.  A short search pulled up a few interesting 
facts regarding to times during WW2 in which aircraft, and their flight 
crews, were "traded" for warships.

Midway - We all know this story; torpedo squadrons pressing home futile 
attack after attack, drawing Japanese attention towards sea level and away 
from the arriving dive bombers in an unplanned, but wildly successful, 
tactic.
     The three squadrons involved flew Devastators, NOT Swordfish as earlier 
posted.  The incrediably elderly Swordfish biplane belonged the RAF's Fleet 
Air Arm (the RN couldn't design or "own" its embarked aircraft!  D'oh!).  
The USN's Devastators had been in service ~7 years and was an obselescent 
design too, although not as bad as the Swordfish(1).
     The three squadrons involved were; VT-3, flown from USS Yorktown, VT-6, 
flown from USS Enterprise, and VT-8 flown from USS Hornet.
     Losses are as follows:
VT-3, 10 of 12 aircraft, 20 of 24 men
VT-6, 10 of 14 aircraft, 20 of 28 men
VT-8, 15 of 15 aircraft, 29 of 30 men
     for a total of:
      35 aircraft and 69 men

     In "return", the USN sank three IJN carriers (before you squawk, please 
note the fourth IJN carrier lost was sunk later in the day and not during 
this specific airstrike).  Let's call it ~10 aircraft and ~20 men per 
warship destroyed.
     Midway was a special case; the IJN needed to be stopped, the USN was 
weak, Midway, Pearl, and ultimately the West Coast needed to be defended, so 
the Americans probably employed somewhat desperate tactics or weren't too 
squeamish about losses as long as the battle was won.
     Now let's look at a not so desperate situation.

The IJN Yamato - The USMC and USA are fighting on Okinawa and the USN is 
close offshore fighting too.  Kamikazes are making life rather difficult for 
the USN, but they're holding their own.  Then the largest kamikaze of them 
all is sent along, the Yamato.
     On 7 APR 1945, USN carriers send 400 aircraft at the Yamato to prevent 
her from arriving at Okinawa.  They lose 10 aircraft and 12 men sending her 
to the bottom, roughly comparable to the numbers it took to sink an IJN CV 
at Midway.  Was this "sacrifice" really necessary?  Would the Yamato have 
reached Okinawa and interfered with the fighting there?
     No.
     The USN had already pulled SIX BBs off the gunline, plus the usual 
assortment of escorting CAs and DDs, to tackle the Yamato if she made it 
through the airstrikes.  Yamato was going to be sunk one way or the other, 
either via massed airstrikes or an extremely one-sided surface engagement.
     So why did the USN "waste" 10 planes and 12 men to sink her, when the 
battleline could have done the job?  Because, the airstrikes were cheaper.  
The US casulties and damage incurred in a gun duel with the Yamato would 
have been far greater than 12 men and the costs of 10 planes.
     When the conditions are right and the options are limited, militaries 
will make these sort of trades all the time.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 09:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 08:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <e6.2be0ca41.2a7a3051@aol.com>
References: <e6.2be0ca41.2a7a3051@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3ptx2twnf.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
>
> But there is a big difference between what you are saying and what
> was implied in the original post.

There's a big difference between what you are inferring and what the
original post stated.  It simply stated, IIRC, that it might take 100
fighters to eliminate a capital ship.  It implied, again IIRC, nothing
about the size of the wave which would lose the 100.

> I'll say again regarding the original post: any pack of pilots that
> would volunteer to die by the hundreds to kill one capital ship as a
> regular ordinary tactic will all be at level 0.  There will be no
> experienced person to train or lead them.

I'll say again: it depends on the size of the wave.  How large were
the British waves in WWII when 100-200 a night were lost?  How large
might a Traveller wave be?  If it's 105, you may be right.  If it's
13,000 you're very probably wrong.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
With the Smart Ship's reputation so far, they will have to build a bloody
big trebuchet for the damn thing to be useful as a weapon.
                                         --Derry Hamilton

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:02:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:02:05 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <e6.2be0ca41.2a7a3051@aol.com>
References: <e6.2be0ca41.2a7a3051@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3ptx2twnf.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
>
> But there is a big difference between what you are saying and what
> was implied in the original post.

There's a big difference between what you are inferring and what the
original post stated.  It simply stated, IIRC, that it might take 100
fighters to eliminate a capital ship.  It implied, again IIRC, nothing
about the size of the wave which would lose the 100.

> I'll say again regarding the original post: any pack of pilots that
> would volunteer to die by the hundreds to kill one capital ship as a
> regular ordinary tactic will all be at level 0.  There will be no
> experienced person to train or lead them.

I'll say again: it depends on the size of the wave.  How large were
the British waves in WWII when 100-200 a night were lost?  How large
might a Traveller wave be?  If it's 105, you may be right.  If it's
13,000 you're very probably wrong.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
With the Smart Ship's reputation so far, they will have to build a bloody
big trebuchet for the damn thing to be useful as a weapon.
                                         --Derry Hamilton

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:02:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:02:39 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <bf.241eecb7.2a7a4368@aol.com>
References: <bf.241eecb7.2a7a4368@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3lm7qtwhm.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
> 
> Yes, with a huge Japanese fleet threatening their homeland and only
> them standing between the yellow peril and their families.  It was
> not, however, a standard tactic, employed "because they'll tolerate
> it".

You keep on making a distinction between `fighting for survival' and
`standard tactics.'  I get the impression that you view the Frontier
Wars as something like our involvement in Panama or Afghanistan (or
Nicaragua, Cuba, Vietnam, Korea &c.) and unlike our involvment in,
say, WWII.  I strenously disagree.  To an Imperial world, the thought
of being captured by the Zhodani is every bit as bad as being captured
by the Japanese was to a Hawaiian.  Sure, the fellows from the Vegan
polity might not care as much, but the soldiers, pilots &c. from the
worlds in question very much _would_.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I love the way Microsoft follows standards.  In much the same manner
that fish follow migrating caribou.                   --Paul Tomblin

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:03:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:03:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Starship Troopers
In-Reply-To: <F10888MMAv7Nf4086xB00003354@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020801154829.54251.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>

Then there's

Ernest Joins the Federation
  Starring Ernest P Whorrel as Johnny "Ernest" Rico

[shudder]


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:04:03 2002
Subject: Service Pay ( [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CC3@USCHM203>

>Robert Uhl wrote:

> "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> writes:
> Huh,  I thought that was only officers.  That just seems wrong to me
> (not that you're wrong; that they're wrong to do it that way).  Did
> y'all have to pay for your foods & cooks too?

Food was free, and I have to be honest, it was good food everywhere I was
stationed. Not restaurant quality, but better than the high school
cafeteria.


Tod L Glenn wrote:

>What service and when?  When I went through The Ft. Benning school for boys
>(Summer 1980), we were paid in cash monthly.  $600 dollars, as I recall.
>Accountable property was just that.  It was signed out to you, and you were
>expected to sign it back in.  Anything missing or damaged, you paid for.

Tod,
	USMC, 1986. Our pay was close to $800 a month. Never knew anyone who
lost a rifle, but people would lose web gear, canteens, and such. 
	Sometimes guys were tempted to "lose" some items just so they could
have them at home when they got out. NO WEAPONS!!! They don't just write
that off. There WILL be an investigation, and you'll get 20 years in
Leavenworth. Not only that, but any Marine, however good friends you are,
would dissuade you or turn you in. At least I hope they would.
	Mostly it was small stuff like web gear and magazine holders.
Perhaps a flak jacket or gas mask. As it is, you can pick all that stuff up
at surplus stores (though at a MUCH higher cost).
	I do know a guy from Spartanburg, SC who took home an empty Dragon
Tube, but it still had the end caps. Last I heard he mounted it above his
fireplace.
	For the record, they don't let you take used LAW tubes, spent brass,
or training grenades home. I tried to take some spent 40mm Grenade
cartridges home that we used as ashtrays, and they confiscated them at the
airport.

	ObTrav, imagine having your pay docked for an FGMP-15? Hope you
planned on staying in for 5 terms!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:04:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:04:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <8d.1bfa1383.2a7a4253@aol.com>
References: <8d.1bfa1383.2a7a4253@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3heietvzo.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
>
> > The point of my video game comment was to illustrate that it's not
> > unrealistic that fighter pilot skills might conceivably be learned
> > from games.  I still believe that to be the case; you've certainly
> > not demonstrated otherwise.
> 
> Try contacting a real fighter pilot sometime.  Ask him if fighter
> pilot skills might be learned from sophisticated games.

Sure, not now: a video game, even a military simulator, is simply not
possible of fully-simulating flight, combat &c.  But thousands of
years in the future that's not an issue.  If you can damp inertia and
fake gravity, you can fake the motions and sensations of combat.  If
you can broadcast in 3D, you can generate a photo-realistic world
outside the phony cockpit windows.  The only thing you _cannot_
simulate is the fear of death--and real military training cannot AFAIK
do that either; only actual flight time can do that.

> Ask your local recruiter--maybe he has a pilot come in once in a
> while to help him recruit.  Or heck, you could even call a nearby
> AFB or naval base, contact the liaison, and ask to speak to a pilot
> for ten minutes or so.  But it would be better if you can look him
> in the eye as he talks to you.

You seem to think that I am foolish enough to believe that a modern
video game can teach flight skills.  I'm not: I'm writing about
`games' thousands of years in the future.

How about you do the reverse: go to a computer scientist or computer
engineer.  Ask him if, assuming inertial damping, artifical gravity
and photo-realistic three-dimension and two thousand years of Moore's
Law, computers will be able to completely simulate a flight and
combat.  Look him in the eye when you do so.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
My word processor was written by Stanford Professor Donald Knuth.  Who
wrote yours?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:05:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:05:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <F228Wv2vyWb6cxHKx7000010140@hotmail.com>

     "...although not as bad as the Swordfish(1)."


Ladies and Gentlemen,

     Please excuse me, I forgot to add the footnote.


(1) - The Swordfishs' very obs0lescence may have actually helped it survive 
in battle.  A most likely apophrycal story from the Bismarck saga has the 
German AA fire missing the attacking Swordfish because the aircraft were 
moving too SLOW, the AA crews led their targets by too much.  Swordfish made 
their torpedo runs at ~90 mph and weather conditions could drop that speed 
even further.
     The Swordfish may been viwed as a joke by other navies, it still got 
the job done at Taranto and with the Bismarck however.


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:05:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:05:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <003b01c23943$a8f1b4c0$6e09bd50@martinjd>
References: <8d.1bfa1383.2a7a4253@aol.com>
 <003b01c23943$a8f1b4c0$6e09bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <m3d6t2tvro.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> writes:
> 
> I play Tekken against my training partner quite a lot.  But you
> know?  We get out fighting skills from hitting one another for real.
> Pushing buttons just doesn't give the feedback.  Or the blood and
> snot.

Piloting is not fighting--it's driving a vehicle.  Given a real
cockpit with the controls connected to a computer, given a
photorealistic 3D display, given inertia simulators and artificial
gravity (same thing?  I dunno.), given a computer roughly
6.14250342873998e234 as powerful as a modern August 2002 computer, you
_could_ accurately simulate a flight, and accurately simulate
anti-aircraft measures, and accurately simulate birds, and accurately
simulate explosions nearby (and far away, for that matter), and
accurately simulate weather, and accurately simulate the stresses of
flying &c. &c. &c.

The only reasonable objections are that inertial simulation and
artificial grav are impossible, that photorealistic 3D displays are
impossible or that Moore's Law will not hold up for two thousand
years.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Contrary to popular opinion there often is a right answer.
            --Carter & Sanger, Thinking about Programming

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:06:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:06:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <000501c2392c$7b7b0800$6f7ba8c0@kenneith93j41k>
References: <f3.1ed9f0cb.2a7a396a@aol.com>
 <000501c2392c$7b7b0800$6f7ba8c0@kenneith93j41k>
Message-ID: <m38z3qtvlw.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Joseph Elric Smith Mormon minion of Arioch" <kruch7@cox.net> writes:
>
> That is the whole argument of detant, that the cost would be too
> high if both sides went to war.

Which doesn't work, if one side has a significantly different cost
model than the other.  Acc. to my father, the Russians were never
nearly as worried about nuclear war as we were.  The reason?  They can
march to Europe.

Note I don't say they were unworried; simply that the leadership did
not view it as the completely and utterly unmitigated disaster that
ours did.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`How do you explain bikini underwear and chocolate 
 sprinkles pressed between pages 102 and 103 of the 
 Canterbury Tales?  It must have been quite an evening.'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:06:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:06:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CC5@USCHM203>

James Ramsay wrote:
 Re:"but a fighter pilot is the entire crew" 

>All he has to do is launch his missiles and run! He is
>only one ship of many. The odds are probably in favor
>of him surviving.

	I don't know if my logic was unsound, but this is one of the reasons
I signed up for infantry rather than armor or even the air wing. And why I
never wanted to be on a ship (let alone a sub).
As deadly as it is for infantry during a battle, being one of many still
makes me feel like less of a target than being in a tank. Years later I have
read many accounts of WWII infantry veterans who did not want to be anywhere
near a tank or heavy weapon because they knew it was going to draw attention
and fire.
	It's easier to pop off a few rounds and squeeze my 170 lbs (many
years ago) behind cover than it is to hide a tank or field gun after firing.
Hell, I can disappear in a small clump of bushes if I have to.
	Statistically, it might not be as safe. I'm sure someone can come up
with figures. Regardless, psychologically it seems to make sense. I imagine
fighter pilots in large squadrons feel less exposed as well. Safety in
numbers and all that. Perception over reality, perhaps, but I bet that,
given the choice of crossing a river under fire on a large 200 man barge or
20 ten man boats, most people would take the latter.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] juries
In-Reply-To: <108.15a4adbc.2a7a6208@aol.com>
References: <108.15a4adbc.2a7a6208@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m34reetvfp.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
> 
> > Amateur juries seem to me to be ill equipped to handle many kinds
> > of cases.
> 
> True.  And irrelevant to why they exist.  Juries aren't meant to be 
> professional, quite the opposite.  Juries are meant to be a last and final 
> check and balance against governmental power over individual citizens.  The 
> government can't put anyone in jail unless they can get a bunch of amateur 
> citizens to agree.  It's preferable to the alternative.

And here I'll agree with you whole-heartedly.  Juries are _supposed_
to give every benefit of the doubt to the accused.  Hence the jury of
one's peers (which I think could arguably be extended to mean race,
sex and class).  Hence the myriad of protections for the accused.
hence the rules on evidence-gathering.  All so that, once that guilty
verdict is read, we can _believe_ it and act accordingly, that is
deprive the convicted man of life, liberty or property as punishment.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
You see, in the post-televisual world we read.  --John Gipson

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:07:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Strain)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:07:39 2002
Subject: [TML] John Strain where have you gone? (Antony Farrell)
References: <20020801134003.15380.76944.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <01fd01c23976$2bdb1f20$a03a3140@dixienet.com>

ARGGGg, shoot! I am not suprised one bit - I have had the highest 'bounce'
rate this past month ever! ~~ John

email  missingjn@dixie-net.com      strain_john@hotmail.com
 strainjohn@yahoo.com     strain_john@ivillage.com     pick one...or try
them all.

> From: "Antony Farrell"  Subject: [TML] John Strain where have you gone?
> are you still here? The emails I sent to you regarding the graphics you
want
> to use have been bouncing. Something about invalid return address.
> Could you try sending me another email   Antony



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:09:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:09:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Acceptable losses
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CC8@USCHM203>

>Flykiller wrote:

>I read somewhere that during the War Between the States the Northern armies

>would place new recruits in entirely new brigades, which made them
>unreliable 
>at first, while the Southern armies would install their new recruits in 
>established armies, which steadied their new recruits greatly.

Not exactly relevant, but mention of the Civil War reminded me of what one
of my South Carolinian friends told me:

"You know what the difference was between a rich Yankee and a rich
Southerner? The rich Yankee paid someone to take his place in the army, and
the rich Southerner outfitted his own regiment."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:10:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:10:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <20020801122203.46aeed42cde04f34877f57ddbe49f2bf.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>     The three squadrons involved flew Devastators, NOT Swordfish as earlier 
>posted.  The incrediably elderly Swordfish biplane belonged the RAF's Fleet 
>Air Arm (the RN couldn't design or "own" its embarked aircraft!  D'oh!).  

Well, until just before World War 2.  Then it was the Royal NAVY's Fleet Air
Arm again, only after much struggle.  One of the less brilliant ideas of
Hugh Trenchard when he was creating the RAF, including both the Royal Flying
Corp and the RN's air arm.  

The design part is true, until World War Two.  Which also meant the Royal
Navy and the British aviation industry had lacked experience of designing
and building carrier-borne aircraft, which meant it took to near the end of
the war before the RN had a good indigenous (Plenty of American carrier
aircraft available.), dedicated carrier-borne aircraft (The Seafire did not
start life as a carrier aircraft.).

>The USN's Devastators had been in service ~7 years and was an obselescent 
>design too, although not as bad as the Swordfish(1).

The Swordfish was not bad....And for the role it was intended, it was
probably better then the TBD!  Which is a sad commentary on US naval
aviation more then anything else.

I would also nominate Operation PEDESTAL, the fighting around Crete, much of
the Mediterranean war, etc.

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

 My Sale List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
 My Want List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:11:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:11:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Acceptable losses
In-Reply-To: <m3bs8ngokq.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <20020731235711.7e8b877379fe414d85fbfc7414631d19.in@keywest.kennett.net>
 <20020731235711.7e8b877379fe414d85fbfc7414631d19.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801091513.4667c4d0@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:01 PM 7/31/2002 -0600, you wrote:

>No, you don't understand.  Every unit must have a Texan (known as
>Tex), a Brooklyner, a racist Southerner, an effete intellectual, a Jew
>and half-a-dozen Midwesterners.  At least, acc. to the war movies:-)

Been reading Ground Forces again?

(For those who don't have it (shame on you!) I included a pile of
sterotypical war-movie types, and how to build them.  The Opie, the
Get-Over Artist, Casanovas, Old Sergeants...)
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Embrace Fascism.    The uniforms look cool


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:12:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:12:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Con Jose the World SF Con any Travellers going?
In-Reply-To: <200208010315.g713FgD09733@sun.ebtech.net>
References: <005601c23562$877a46c0$810fbd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801092023.45176588@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:12 PM 7/31/2002 -500, you wrote:
>Hi I'll be at Con Jose working the Coffeeklatches
>
>Anyone else planning on attending?

I'll be there, working publications.

>Maybe we could get together over a meal to talk Traveller.

It would be fun.  May I suggest that anyone attending ConJose subscribe to
Travller in SF.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TravellerinSF/

So we can coordinate a meeting time and place.  If we want to do an actual
dinner, I need to know how many people are coming.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
- Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:12:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:12:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Kit (as our British friends say)
In-Reply-To: <d4.1b055146.2a7a030a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801092658.4c07ad3c@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:20 PM 7/31/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>One of my favorite bits of reading is a papyrus detailing the pay record
of a 
>Roman soldier in Egypt ca. 250 AD There are deductions for uniform and 
>equipment, mandatory deposit to the unit savings bank, contributions to the 
>burial fund (insurance) and the unit Saturnalia feast (held around the same 
>time as Christmas), and stoppages to pay for a wine bar demolished in the 
>course of a brawl. Every soldier I have ever shown it to marvels at the line 
>on the bottom:
>
>"Copy 2 of 3, for unit archives"

Good lord, a Roman LES?  (Leave and Earning Statement)  Just goes to show
why the Empire fell, they developed a military bureaucracy.

What is the Latin for Rear Echelon Mother-F**ker?
--

Duugirashir Irebamenagiin  gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
Inquisitor Maximus, Reformed Canon Church of Sylea


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:13:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:13:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Kit (as our British friends say)
In-Reply-To: <02080113001703.22132@avlendris>
References: <20020801115445.5089.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>
 <20020801115445.5089.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801092932.4517038c@pop.mindspring.com>

At 01:00 PM 8/1/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>
>> > "Copy 2 of 3, for unit archives"
>>   OMG!!!!! The, the, the......[sigh]......
>
>This seems to be flying right over my head... is that what the modern 
>equivalents also say or something?

The modern US Military has a form called the Leave and Earning Statement
(LES) that details your rank, pay received, and any deductions made such as
AUSA dues (Association of the US Army), insurance, and forfeiture of pay
due to Article 15 punishments.  There are several copies, one of which is
stored at the battalion-level in case there is a problem with your pay.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:13:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:13:51 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
In-Reply-To: <200207312007.LTZ05292@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801093246.4c070802@pop.mindspring.com>

At 04:07 PM 7/31/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>"Glenn M. Goffin" says
>>So, John, are you a sociopath in real life, or do you just 
>>play one in RPGs?
>
>In real life, the Army saw fit to conduct a psychological 
>evaluation, and on the commander's recommendation, I was sent 
>to sniper school.  Later, when I became a software 
>consultant...

Hey!  They gave me a pysch eval before I was assigned to sniper school!
Evidently, I was just sociopathic enough for their purposes...
-- 

Douglas E. Berry      gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"Well, thanks to the Internet, I'm now bored
 with sex." - Fry, Futurama

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:14:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:14:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Acceptable losses
In-Reply-To: <18e.baee50e.2a7a654a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801093629.477f1bde@pop.mindspring.com>

At 06:19 AM 8/1/2002 EDT, you wrote:
> >I think the idea is to look at new weapons and technology with the idea 
> >that standard concepts from the last well may no longer apply.  Certainly, 
> >it is impossible to anticipate change.
>
>It is if you are the one driving it.

Not really.  Sometimes, changes you intiate have consequences that you
can't predict.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:14:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:14:56 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <av4ikugatpklat65etuddk08afchu3ve4e@4ax.com>
References: <20020801043903.8532.97422.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <20020801043903.8532.97422.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801094055.44fff8cc@pop.mindspring.com>

At 06:58 AM 8/1/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>And Patton got it wrong, at that - the purpose of the American soldier is
>to _severely_maim_ the other bastards.  If you kill him, they can just
>leave the body until it's safe to come get it and give it a burial.
>
>If you just maim him, they have to devote manpower and resources to getting
>him out of the line of fire, and trying to put him back together.  Which
>means less that they can throw at you.

It is a violation of the laws of land warfare to intentionally shoot to
maim or injure an enemy combatant.  You are supposed to go for the kill.
This mainly applies to snipers, who have been known to wound enemy soldiers
as bait for rescue attempts.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:17:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:17:10 2002
Subject: Service Pay ( [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <2c231b2c59ae.2c59ae2c231b@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>
Date: Thursday, August 1, 2002 6:42 pm
Subject: Re: Service Pay ( [TML] warship optimization in traveller

<<snip>> 
> 
> Tod L Glenn wrote:
> 
> >What service and when?  When I went through The Ft. Benning 
> school for boys
> >(Summer 1980), we were paid in cash monthly.  $600 dollars, as I 
> recall.>Accountable property was just that.  It was signed out to 
> you, and you were
> >expected to sign it back in.  Anything missing or damaged, you 
> paid for.
> 

This practice goes a long way to explaining why captains go down with 
the ship.... ;-)

<<snip>>
> 
> 	ObTrav, imagine having your pay docked for an FGMP-15? Hope you
> planned on staying in for 5 terms!

I've always wanted to see the hand receipt for a _Tigress_....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <2d16412cfe49.2cfe492d1641@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Thursday, August 1, 2002 7:24 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships

<<snip>>
> 
> >The USN's Devastators had been in service ~7 years and was an 
> obselescent 
> >design too, although not as bad as the Swordfish(1).
> 
> The Swordfish was not bad....And for the role it was intended, it was
> probably better then the TBD!  Which is a sad commentary on US naval
> aviation more then anything else.

OTOH, the Stringbag was never sent into battle against carrier-based 
fighters.  The TBD pilots at Midway, meanwhile, had to try to survive 
without fighter cover against the A6M Zero.  Hardly a fair contest (of 
course, any military leader who tries to fight war _fairly_ isn't doing 
the job correctly).

<<snip>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:21:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:21:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Character Conversions
Message-ID: <20020801172052.47546.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>

Has anyone ever come up with a good character
conversion system?  I mean one that allows for
conversion to CT, MT, TNE, T4, GT, and T20.

I know that some of these are very similar (MT & T4),
but what about the others?

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Character Conversions
Message-ID: <2dbfaf2d6ae3.2d6ae32dbfaf@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com>
Date: Thursday, August 1, 2002 8:20 pm
Subject: [TML] Character Conversions

> Has anyone ever come up with a good character
> conversion system?  I mean one that allows for
> conversion to CT, MT, TNE, T4, GT, and T20.
> 
> I know that some of these are very similar (MT & T4),
> but what about the others?

CT, MT and T4 chargen rules are similar enough (at least if you use LBB 
4+ for your CT characters) that conversion is fairly straightforward.  
IIRC (I failed to pack my copy for shipment to Sinai), _Survival Margin_ 
includes notes on converting MT characters to TNE.  Similarly, the base 
GT rulebook includes conversion rules for most, if not all, previous 
Trav rulesets.  Someone else will have to answer about T20.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:31:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:31:05 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CC1@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801101615.43af8f6e@pop.mindspring.com>

At 05:48 PM 7/31/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>I assume the other veterans experienced this as well. I'm curious if you
>were as surprised as I was.

In the US Army of the early-mid 80s, all my basic issue was just that:
issued.  I was authorized four sets of BDUs, two pairs of boots, combat,
leather, etc..  I could always exchange a set that had become damaged or
worn for a new set.  Of course, I bought extra sets of BDUs so I had a
parade-ready issue set at all times. (The "field-gear" got stuffed in a car
trunk during command inspections.)

Things like our LBE, shelter halves, fart sacks and the like were issued at
the organizational level, and had to be turned in when we were transfered,
which was a bitch and a half for cleaning.

>Oh, and they also charged us for haircuts. As if we had a choice.

Barbar shop was a civilian contractor, he made his money shaving recruits
and cutting hair for soldiers.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Embrace Fascism.    The uniforms look cool


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:31:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:31:35 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <193.ac0a39b.2a7a20cf@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801102115.43afd25a@pop.mindspring.com>

At 01:27 AM 8/1/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>Imminent threats to national survival, of course, change casualty rate 
>acceptance.  But the original subject was hundreds of fighter pilots for the 
>one or two lucky shots to kill a capital ship as a standard by-the-book 
>tactic.  Never happen.

Look up the Battle of Midway.  The IJN Hiryu was caught reloading and
refueling by American dive bombers.  It took three hits and was on fire and
sank soon afterwards.  Another of the Japanese carriers absorbed a dozen
hits beofre sinking.

The Golden Shot does occur, that's why we try.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:32:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:32:07 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <bf.241eecb7.2a7a4368@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801102509.44ff225e@pop.mindspring.com>

At 03:55 AM 8/1/2002 EDT, you wrote:
> >>asking hundreds of them at a time to give up their lives all 
> >>at once, just to make a tactic work, in one segment of a 
> >>single battle, is not an insignificant outlay for THEM.  
> >>(push button) "go do this, guys."  (lights 
> >>flash) "ok."  it doesn't work that way.
> > 
> >See the battle of Midway.  The low level torpedo attack 
> >planes that sacrificed themselves to Japanese anti-aircraft 
> >fire so that the dive bombers would have a chance.
>
>Yes, with a huge Japanese fleet threatening their homeland and only them 
>standing between the yellow peril and their families.  It was not, however, 
>a standard tactic, employed "because they'll tolerate it".

Wrong.  Hawaii was a colony at the time, and the actual United states was
2000 miles away.  The Navy pilots did their jobs because that's what they
were trained to do.  Because that was the mission: sink those flat-tops.

Read up on the Battle of Camerone, or Gallipoli, or Verdun.  Soldiers can
and will sacrifice themselves for a greater purpose.
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <F137of0aYhHnKZ1nSIz0000ee76@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000001c23982$55e0e910$6501a8c0@Darla>

As an elaboration, the torpedo squadrons at Midway did not score any
hits -- but, quite by accident, they drew the Japanese fighter cover
down to sea level and cleared the way for the divebomber attacks that
sank three carriers.

This was not a deliberate "trade".  It just happened that way.  The
torpedo squadrons pressed their attack because they knew it was their
duty to do so.  They did not have ANY knowledge that they were setting
up a coordinated attack, or even of the presence of either of the two
other torpedo squadrons.  They attacked out of their determination to
close with and destroy the enemy:

"My greatest hope is that we encounter a favorable tactical situation,
but if we don't, and the worst comes to the worst, I want each of us to
do his utmost to destroy our enemies.  If there is only one plane left
to make a final run in, I want that man to go in and get a hit.  May God
go with us all."  --- John C. Waldron, CO TORPEDO EIGHT, 4 June 1942

The point being, that warriors fighting for what they believe it do not
weigh the cost in the moment of combat -- they do their duty, and there
is little that they cannot accomplish.


Thomas Barnes



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Acceptable losses
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020801091513.4667c4d0@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <20020731235711.7e8b877379fe414d85fbfc7414631d19.in@keywest.kennett.net>
 <20020731235711.7e8b877379fe414d85fbfc7414631d19.in@keywest.kennett.net>
 <3.0.5.16.20020801091513.4667c4d0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m3lm7qsbz0.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes:
> 
> Been reading Ground Forces again?

Not recently, but I do own it.  Hope you enjoyed the fraction of a cup
of coffee:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Man, I'm glad that I'm not using [Microsoft Product].  This new
[virus/worm/trojan] exploits a [flaw/bug/backdoor] in [Microsoft
Product], and it [does/doesn't] use Outlook and the stupidity of users.
Luckily, I'm running [Free alternative to Microsoft product], so I'm not
at risk.  In fact, [Free alternative to Microsoft product] has protected
me from [any integer over 200] [viruses/worms/trojans].  And just look
at the [hundreds/thousands/millions/billions] of dollars that I've saved
using [Free alternative to Microsoft product].  I hope that this [Free
alternative to Microsoft product] takes off, along with [free
alternative to Microsoft OS].  Unfortunately, my [company/home] has to
pay for the stupidity of Microsoft: this [virus/worm/trojan] sucked
[250KB/250MB/250GB/250TB] of bandwidth!                  --cwcairns

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CCC@USCHM203>

Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 09:40:55
To: tml@travellercentral.com
>"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:

>It is a violation of the laws of land warfare to intentionally shoot to
>maim or injure an enemy combatant.  You are supposed to go for the kill.
>This mainly applies to snipers, who have been known to wound enemy soldiers
>as bait for rescue attempts.

Don't know if this is true or not, but supposedly it is also a violation to
use an M2 (the .50 caliber Heavy MG of a recent thread) to shoot at
individual combatants. It is only to be used for attacking vehicles and
equipment.
A friend of mine who served in the US 101st told me that an instructor at
Fort Campbell then went on to give examples of what could be considered
"equipment":

"Web gear, canteens, helmets, eyeglasses, magazines, entrenching tools...."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:03:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:03:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Acceptable losses
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CC8@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <000001c23985$cff0e5e0$6501a8c0@Darla>

AFAIK the major reason that the Union Army in the ACW tended to raise
new regiments instead of adding replacement to veteran ones was that
raising a new regiment allowed the governor of the state to commission a
regiment's worth of officers, up to and including a Colonel.  

TWB

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com [mailto:tml-
> admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Hurrel, Brian
> Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 11:31 AM
> To: 'tml@travellercentral.com'
> Subject: Re: [TML] Acceptable losses
> 
> >Flykiller wrote:
> 
> >I read somewhere that during the War Between the States the Northern
> armies
> 
> >would place new recruits in entirely new brigades, which made them
> >unreliable
> >at first, while the Southern armies would install their new recruits
in
> >established armies, which steadied their new recruits greatly.
> 
> Not exactly relevant, but mention of the Civil War reminded me of what
one
> of my South Carolinian friends told me:
> 
> "You know what the difference was between a rich Yankee and a rich
> Southerner? The rich Yankee paid someone to take his place in the
army,
> and
> the rich Southerner outfitted his own regiment."
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <200208011810.LVR04270@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Douglas E. Berry" says
>Hey!  They gave me a pysch eval before I was assigned to 
>sniper school! Evidently, I was just sociopathic enough for 
>their purposes...

I think I see a pattern here...

long time Traveller player...
joins the military (some of us wished we did)...
maybe even the Marines, (but Ft. Benning School For Boys is 
OK)
probably infantry...
could be Navy, though...
fiendish affection for small arms...
ends up as a writer (gasp!) or a programmer (have to pay the 
bills) or a lawyer!

It almost looks like we saw our initial career paths in the 
LBBs, and when we mustered out, we went and got "ordinary" 
jobs.

I bet that fighting hole full of cold rainwater I stepped 
into near LZ Aardvark was put there by Doug.  Thanks, Doug.

________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] juries
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEFAEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <3D497ADB.7010302@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Terry Carlino wrote:

> I've got to say that I have very little confidence in the present U.S. legal
> system. I don't mean in a political way. I just don't think that an
> adversarial system is all that good for determining guilt. Amateur juries
> seem to me to be ill equipped to handle many kinds of cases. They let people
> go when there is very solid scientifically based evidence, such as DNA,
> because they don't understand it. They find thieves innocent who steal using
> a ledger rather than a gun because they can't understand the complex
> accounting ruses used to strip value form companies and defraud. They
> release obviously guilty individuals because the defense attorney is a
> better speaker or looks better in his $1000 suit than the prosecutor does in
> her $140 Kmart suit, (or vice versa for public defenders and big city
> political DA's.)

I'll start by mentioning two maxims:

The plural of anecdote is not data.

What you see on TeeVee is not all real.

And if you've never served on a jury, and had to make those decisions, 
you do not know what it's like. To imply that a jury lets someone off 
because they have a defense lawyer in a slick suit, is wrong, and 
moreover, pure demagoguery.

More often than not, the reality is that the lawyer who can afford the 
slick suit is a good lawyer, with lots of resources to devote to the case.

As a whole, the jury system in the US does work pretty damned well.

The entire justice system suffers a bit, because if you have money you 
can afford good lawyers. If you're poor, you get someone overworked who 
will counsel you to plead out rather than take a case to trial, often no 
matter what the actual state of your guilt or innocence.

Yeah, OJ got off.

The truth is, contrary to popular belief, the average American is not as 
dumb as a post, the average jury isn't stupid or incapable of dealing 
with sophisticated evidence.

In the OJ case, the jury obviously bought the defense argument (at least 
to a state of reasonable doubt) that the handling of the evidence, and 
the bias of the investigating officers had been sufficiently tainting 
that they couldn't convict.

Juries are told very carefully what they are and they aren't allowed to 
consider during deliberations, and sometimes that doesn't all make 
sense, particularly to someone, *unlike the jury*, that has been swamped 
with media coverage and rampant punditry on the case.

In the Anderson case, it was clear that something wrong had been done. 
Proving it was entirely another matter, because what had probably been 
done was the destruction of the evidence needed to prove the wrongdoing.

It was not clear, *from the evidence*, that the *people* had done what 
the prosecutors said they did.

Note, in the Anderson case, shady accounting practices did not come into 
the decision at all, merely whether they had conspired to obstruct justice.

No criminal case over *shady accounting* has yet come out of the recent 
scandals. In previous trials, people who committed shady deals *have* 
been convicted: Millken, Keating, our ex-guv J. Thief Slimington. 
(though the latter two got off because of appeals and a friggin' 
presidential pardon, respectively)

But the very nature of the evidence in trials over accounting is 
slipperier than, say, a trial over stolen property.

It's easy to say whether someone did or did not have Mrs. Smiths TV and 
stereo in the back of their car, or that the property was recovered with 
their fingerprints on it.

It's a LOT harder to say whether Mrs. Smith's finance adviser showed bad 
judgement, bad luck or criminal intent in commiting her to ruinous 
transactions.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:18:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:18:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <200208011817.LVR05093@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Hurrel, Brian" says
>"Web gear, canteens, helmets, eyeglasses, magazines, 
>entrenching tools...."

Yes, you can shoot at anything that the enemy soldier has 
signed for.  Make sure you check his forms, and after you 
fire your rounds, have him sign for the ones that hit him.

There have been references to Imperial rules concerning 
warfare - are there really any in canon?  No use of nukes by 
non-Imperial forces?  Meson guns?  No genocide?  Eh?

The line from Apocalypse Now always made sense to me: 
arresting someone for violating the rules of war is like 
handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
In-Reply-To: <200208011810.LVR04270@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B96ECAA0.67370%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 11:10 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> I bet that fighting hole full of cold rainwater I stepped
> into near LZ Aardvark was put there by Doug.  Thanks, Doug.

The wonderful bond of shared experience (misery).  We can all sit down
together, drink beer, and share tales of the fine accommodations of Harmony
Church, the facilities at AO Eagle, the pleasures of Columbus Georgia.
Differentiated only by the uniform we wore, or the color of our boots and
whether we took the SQT or the POIQT.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:24:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:24:35 2002
Subject: [TML] juries
Message-ID: <200208011823.LVR05798@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Bruce Johnson says
<snip good comments about the intractability of determining 
accounting wrongdoing>

Hence the general populations unease with the concept of "no 
controlling authority".

Maybe the concept of men, not so much laws, is not a bad 
one.  Sure, we could say that on Regina, there's no specific 
law against writing your ledgers that way.  On the other 
hand, if news gets out, and there's enough related heat (such 
as massive corporate collapse), the Duke of Regina will be 
sending you a personal invitation to the prison hulk.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:25:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:25:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <200208011817.LVR05093@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020801182452.5599.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:
> 
> The line from Apocalypse Now always made sense to
> me: 
> arresting someone for violating the rules of war is
> like 
> handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500.

Which is what I've always thought about so called
"rules of war".  It makes about as much sense to have
rules when it comes to war as it does to have speed
limits at the Indy 500 (or Daytona us southerners).

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:33:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff D. Greenly)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:33:18 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <sd494643.049@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>

Larsen raises several excellent points. I thought I would chime in,
briefly, because I am of the opinion that Mr. Fly simply doesn't get it
despite what the true warrior types on the TML have been (very
patiently) explaining. TML hasn't been this interesting in a while!

One need only to look at the Battle of the Atlantic to see how much of
an effect esprit de corps and loyalty go towards men willingly going
into grave danger. I may be slightly off on my numbers, but the U-Boat
service saw the highest losses of ANY service branch, across all
nationalities during WW II. Something like 80% of all U-boatmen were KIA
towards the end of the war, with the average life expectancy being a
week. 

Funny how there were more volunteers than the service needed right up
to the end of the war, and there was never a single incidence of mutiny
(although there was ONE incident where a u-boat captain was executed for
cowardice in the face of the enemy. This was based on the testimony of
his crew and his own logs!) The crews KNEW things were rough.There were
a lot more u-boats missing than ones that came back to port, and of the
ones that did come back in, very few had any kills to their credit as
the war dragged on. They knew that the time of the Paukenschlag and the
Gray Wolves were over. But they went for Onkel Karl and they went for
glory, and they went because they were the cream of the crop and they
knew it, and they died in STAGGERING numbers. 

I think that a massed assault by fighters, assault shuttles or other
small craft in conjunction with light and medium ships of the line is a
perfectly viable and certainly historically proven means of depriving
the enemy of his capital ships. All it takes is one hit and you're
halfway there. Stop and think. A big ship, crewed by thousands and
costing hundreds of millions of credits can be taken out of action by a
force of craft costing a tenth and crewed by 1-3 men each. Combine that
fighter attack with coups d'grace administered by a number of cruisers,
destroyers, frigates and so on, and you have a very flexible multi-role
force for a lot less than a fleet full of big ships. There's a reason
the US Navy (as well as most other modern fleets!) is comprised the way
it is. Learn from it.

Jeff
OT3, USN

BTW, I think some of the best Navy chow to be had is at RTC Great
Lakes. You can have as much as you can get down in 5 minutes. I can't
remember tasting anything while I was there, but I got plenty! I also
seem to remember getting charged 6 bucks for 2 haircuts while I was
there, 3 bucks for my web belts and spats (one green belt, one white
belt, one pair white spats) and 85 bucks for my peacoat. I still have
the peacoat. I think I also had to buy a pair of running shoes for 10
bucks, and I only ran in them a few times, in the old blimp hangers. I
remember having to buy a plastic cigarette case, even though we couldn't
smoke. It apparently was for small valuables, but I never used mine. We
also had to buy our Bluejacket Manuals. I still have mine, proudly
sitting on my bookshelf at home. Funny to go back and look at it after
all these years....Ah, well.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Scott Kullberg)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <200208011817.LVR05093@vmms1.verisignmail.com> ("John T.
 Kwon"'s message of "Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:17:04 -0400")
References: <200208011817.LVR05093@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <m2d6t2juj5.fsf@attbi.com>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:

> There have been references to Imperial rules concerning 
> warfare - are there really any in canon?  No use of nukes by 
> non-Imperial forces?  Meson guns?  No genocide?  Eh?
>
> The line from Apocalypse Now always made sense to me: 
> arresting someone for violating the rules of war is like 
> handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500.

As I read the canon, the Imperial Rules of War don't apply to the
Imperium and its peers; they're for Imperial members. Fight clean, and
your little planets can have their little wars. Play dirty, and you'll
have IN dreadnoughts in low orbit and Imperial Marine assault shuttles
on your capital. It works because of the peculiar Traveller convention
that a powerful over-government exists but still allows what we would
call call "civil wars".

There might be 'rules' when the Imps fight the Zhos, but those are
really just customs and just as (un-)enforceable as what we've got now.


-- 
Scott E Kullberg  --><--  sekullbe@attbi.com
 "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands,
 hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -- H. L. Mencken

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <20020801182452.5599.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B96ECE97.67378%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 11:24 AM, Paul Walker at traveller_tv@yahoo.com wrote:

> 
> Which is what I've always thought about so called
> "rules of war".  It makes about as much sense to have
> rules when it comes to war as it does to have speed
> limits at the Indy 500 (or Daytona us southerners).

I'm not sure that this is the same thing, and frankly, war without rules
frightens me.  We get back to barbaric times.  Shooting prisoners of war out
of hand, killing noncombatants, using poison gas, biological warfare, etc.,
etc.

Ultimately, all of these things have a very real toll, particularly on the
combatants themselves. Unless we want to become barbarians ourselves, again.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <m2d6t2juj5.fsf@attbi.com>
Message-ID: <B96ECF6B.6737C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 11:36 AM, Scott Kullberg at sekullbe@attbi.com wrote:

> 
> As I read the canon, the Imperial Rules of War don't apply to the
> Imperium and its peers; they're for Imperial members. Fight clean, and
> your little planets can have their little wars. Play dirty, and you'll
> have IN dreadnoughts in low orbit and Imperial Marine assault shuttles
> on your capital. It works because of the peculiar Traveller convention
> that a powerful over-government exists but still allows what we would
> call call "civil wars".
> 
> There might be 'rules' when the Imps fight the Zhos, but those are
> really just customs and just as (un-)enforceable as what we've got now.
> 

Yeah.  The Imperium like to preserve nukes and such for itself, if for no
other reason that to keep member states from getting too big for their
britches.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:03:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:03:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <B96ECE97.67378%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020801190214.8933.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> traveller_tv@yahoo.com wrote:
> > 
> > Which is what I've always thought about so called
> > "rules of war".  It makes about as much sense to
> have
> > rules when it comes to war as it does to have
> speed
> > limits at the Indy 500 (or Daytona us
> southerners).
> 
> I'm not sure that this is the same thing, and
> frankly, war without rules
> frightens me.  We get back to barbaric times. 
> Shooting prisoners of war out
> of hand, killing noncombatants, using poison gas,
> biological warfare, etc.,
> etc.
> 
> Ultimately, all of these things have a very real
> toll, particularly on the
> combatants themselves. Unless we want to become
> barbarians ourselves, again.
> 

Tod,

Actually, I agree with you, but I don't think it is
accurate to call it "rules" any more than the courtesy
between drivers at Indy or Daytona can be called
"speed limits" or "rules" of driving.

We extend POW's and noncombatants a certain amount of
"courtesy" and expect the same from our enemies.  Our
culture (at least for now) calls for this courtesy to
be extended even if it is not returned.  A perfect
example is the war against the terrorist
organizations.  They have no problem killing prisoners
and noncombatants, and yet we still extend the
courtesies mentioned above to them.

Maybe it is pedantic, but calling them rules implies
some sort of implicit wrong in breaking them.  Rather
than a courtesy, something that, in some cases, should
indeed be broken.

So, I guess I misspoke.  I should have said that it
makes about as much sense to have traffic laws at Indy
or Daytona as it does to have "rules" when it comes to
war.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <20020801190214.8933.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B96ED62A.67384%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 12:02 PM, Paul Walker at traveller_tv@yahoo.com wrote:
> 
> So, I guess I misspoke.  I should have said that it
> makes about as much sense to have traffic laws at Indy
> or Daytona as it does to have "rules" when it comes to
> war.
> 

Ah, but there are 'traffic laws' at Indy.  Take, for example, the yellow
flag.  Also, you cannot run down people.  You cannot install machineguns in
your car, dump oil or smoke, etc.

The rules of war are more than just courtesy in that when our own people
break them, we punish them.  Certainly, they are broken.  But we don't say
'That's OK'.  We may say that it is understandable.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:30:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moreton)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:30:22 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <43.f41b3de.2a7a45aa@aol.com>
Message-ID: <026001c23992$31805e60$18130050@amoreton>



> >HMS Glow-worm ramming the Admiral Hipper comes to mind. The destroyer's
>  >mass
>  >was literally the only thing that might hurt the cruiser, and if she
wasn't
>  >hurt then the convoy would be massacred. Her skipper knew his ship would
>  >sink; he knew many (but probably not all) of his crew would die. But the
>  >decision was made in the face of the enemy, for a clear goal - to save
>  >hundreds of helpless merchant seamen. Would the crew have accepted an
>  >Admiralty policy of "we're not giving you torpedoes. You're to close and
>  >ram, then sink"? In desperate times, some people actually would. But,
say,
>  >in 1934? Nope.

Not to disagree with    the point of the comment but some details on the
loss of HMS Glowworm  was not escorting a convoy at the time of the battle
with the Hipper, she had been part of a minelaying sortie off the Norwegian
coast she became seperated from her consorts and came across on of the
Hipper's escrting destroyers. In the prevailing bad weather the Glowworm was
forced into close action with the Hipper, the Hipper attempted to run down
the Glowworm and then the Captain of the Glowworm  Lt Cmdr Gerald G Rooper
deceided to Ram the Hipper he succeeded adn the impact carried away 120 feet
of the hippers side plate and let in 528 tons of water , the Hipper carried
on with a 4 degree list and accomplished her mission. Many of the Glowworms
crew where saved by German vessels not including her captain who drowned
while being rescued , he was postumously awarded the VC.
You may perhaps be confusing the Glowworm with 2 British Armed Merchant
crusiers the Jarvis Bay as the lone escort of a convoy the Jarvis Bay a
converted liner with about 6 obsolete 6 inch guns when the convoy
encountered the Pocket Battleship Admiral Scheer heavily armoured and armed
with 6 11 inch guns . The Jarvis Bay charged the Admiral Scheer drawing the
Fire of the Scheer upon herself allowing the Convoy to scatter to safety
.her Captain E S F Fegan was awarded the VC posthumously.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:32:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:32:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <20020801182452.5599.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020801182452.5599.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <m38z3qs7e0.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:
> 
> Which is what I've always thought about so called "rules of war".
> It makes about as much sense to have rules when it comes to war as
> it does to have speed limits at the Indy 500 (or Daytona us
> southerners).

Not really.  The whole point of a race is to see who can go the
fastest.  But the point of war is _not_ to see who can commit the most
atrocities.  The exact point is a matter of some contention, but I
tend to figure that it has to do with taking and holding territory.
Since someone else is holding and defending it, men are going to die.
But there's no point in being cruel about it.  `If you must kill a
man, there's no harm in being polite to him.'  In much the same way,
if you're going to kill a man, shoot him cleanly; don't leave him
lying in his guts screaming for hours.  Don't gas him, so he doesn't
die but instead leads a long life of pain and misery.  Don't hunt down
and kill his wife and children.  Don't torture him if you capture
him.  In fact, if you capture him he's no longer a threat, so don't
kill him at all.

The rules of war are what prevent a horrendous thing from becoming
even worse.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I owe the government $3400 in taxes.  So I sent them two hammers and a
toilet seat.                                         --Michael McShane

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:35:04 2002
Subject: [TML] juries
In-Reply-To: <3D497ADB.7010302@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEFAEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
 <3D497ADB.7010302@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <m34rees79e.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:
> 
> The truth is, contrary to popular belief, the average American is
> not as dumb as a post, the average jury isn't stupid or incapable of
> dealing with sophisticated evidence.

No, but his IQ is 100, which isn't that much more impressive...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Reading maketh a full man; conference a ready man; and writing an exact
man.                                                            --Bacon

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:43:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:43:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <20020801190214.8933.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020801190214.8933.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <m3y9bqqsbp.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:
> 
> We extend POW's and noncombatants a certain amount of "courtesy" and
> expect the same from our enemies.  Our culture (at least for now)
> calls for this courtesy to be extended even if it is not returned.

IMHO civilian opinion that's foolish.  The deal should be play by our
rules or we play by none.  That is, we'll refrain from using NBC
weapons, we'll take prisoners, we'll treat them right, we'll avoid
hitting civilians for exactly so long as the other side does.  If they
don't, then we don't; instead we run up the black flag and fight
dirty.  It's not as though they'd retaliate by fighting dirty; they
already do.

Note that I am _not_ referring to any current actions, simply to a
theoretical stance.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
His troops would follow him anywhere, but only out of curiosity.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:46:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:46:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <m38z3qs7e0.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <B96EDDFB.6739E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 12:31 PM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> and kill his wife and children.  Don't torture him if you capture
> him.  In fact, if you capture him he's no longer a threat, so don't
> kill him at all.

More than that, if you treat your prisoners well, and the enemy knows it,
they may be more inclined to surrender.  Would the Iraqis have surrendered
in droves if we were shooting them out of hand and putting their heads on
poles?  I don't think so.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Chris Tann)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <20020801190006.19736.20169.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020801194721.65071.qmail@web14504.mail.yahoo.com>

The actual Apocalypse Now quote is 

"Shit...charging a
man with murder in this place was like handing out speeding
tickets in the Indy 500."

I also like 

"They  train young men to drop fire on people. But their commanders 
won't allow them to  write fuck on their airplanes because it's obscene! "


> on 8/1/02 11:24 AM, Paul Walker at traveller_tv@yahoo.com wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Which is what I've always thought about so called
> > "rules of war".  It makes about as much sense to have
> > rules when it comes to war as it does to have speed
> > limits at the Indy 500 (or Daytona us southerners).
> 
> I'm not sure that this is the same thing, and frankly, war without rules
> frightens me.  
> ...

=====
***********************************************************
Chris Tann                           Independent Consultant
chris@christann.com                       Walkabout Designs
phone (408) 205 6793               http://www.christann.com
***********************************************************

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:51:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:51:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <m3y9bqqsbp.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <B96EDF1B.6739F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 12:42 PM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> 
> IMHO civilian opinion that's foolish.  The deal should be play by our
> rules or we play by none.  That is, we'll refrain from using NBC
> weapons, we'll take prisoners, we'll treat them right, we'll avoid
> hitting civilians for exactly so long as the other side does.  If they
> don't, then we don't; instead we run up the black flag and fight
> dirty.  It's not as though they'd retaliate by fighting dirty; they
> already do.
> 
> Note that I am _not_ referring to any current actions, simply to a
> theoretical stance.

There are reasons for 'playing by civilized rules' other than to encourage
the enemy to do so.  We are a civilized people.  Our soldiers come from that
civilized society.  If we 'play dirty', we can cause great harm to our own
soldiers.  You cannot take a civilized person, send him off to do
unspeakable acts, and then expect him to come home and fit well into
civilized society.  You cannot even expect to maintain discipline.  You
cannot let the enemy dictate your behavior in war.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <B96ED62A.67384%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020801195839.54151.qmail@web20905.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> Ah, but there are 'traffic laws' at Indy.  Take, for
> example, the yellow
> flag.  Also, you cannot run down people.  You cannot
> install machineguns in
> your car, dump oil or smoke, etc.

Good point.  The analogy des fall apart after a bit. 
Mainly because there is (and should be) a governing
authority over the teams/participants in the Indy 500.

The obvious ObTrav here is the Imperial Rules of War.
(IIRC, they were set down in some part first in MT)
 
> The rules of war are more than just courtesy in that
> when our own people
> break them, we punish them.  Certainly, they are
> broken.  But we don't say
> 'That's OK'.  We may say that it is understandable.

I wasn't aware that we police ourselves.  If we do,
then I have no objections to the use of the terms
rules.  Rules, to me, implies that somewhere, somehow
there is someone to answer to if you break them.

I see your point, and if we police ourselves, then
certainly I agree.  Unfortunately, my military
experience outside of the TML is sparse indeed.

ObTrav:  Are there any "Rules" of war between the 3I
and Zho's?  On either side, and who enforces them?

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 14:01:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  1 13:01:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <200208012000.LVV03238@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>There are reasons for 'playing by civilized rules' other 
>than to encourage the enemy to do so.  We are a civilized 
>people.  Our soldiers come from that civilized society.  If 
>we 'play dirty', we can cause great harm to our own
>soldiers.  You cannot take a civilized person, send him off 
>to do unspeakable acts, and then expect him to come home and 
>fit well into civilized society.  You cannot even expect to 
>maintain discipline.  You cannot let the enemy dictate your 
>behavior in war.

While I would shoot, say, a fellow soldier who engaged in an 
atrocity such as rape or torture, it is my belief that our 
soldiers should be allowed to write whatever strikes their 
fancy on the sides on bombs.  If someone comes home and his 
only aftereffect from the "war" is spontaneous graffiti, 
that's ok by me.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 14:04:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff D. Greenly)
Date: Thu Aug  1 13:04:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
Message-ID: <sd495bcc.012@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>

Would a world that has 80% of its surface covered by water, a dense
nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, and one moon that is large enough to exert a
tidal effect tend to be more or less climatically active? Assume
moderate (terran-normal) vulcanism and a fairly non-polluting early TL
aqua/agricultural society. Also assume standard polar ice caps and
rotation around 20 deg. off the plane of the ecliptic. I'll welcome any
and all comments...

Jeff

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 14:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug  1 13:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <B96EDF1B.6739F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020801200953.4391.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> ruhl@4dv.net wrote:
> > 
> > IMHO civilian opinion that's foolish.  The deal
> should be play by our
> > rules or we play by none.  That is, we'll refrain
> from using NBC
> > weapons, we'll take prisoners, we'll treat them
> right, we'll avoid
> > hitting civilians for exactly so long as the other
> side does.  If they
> > don't, then we don't; instead we run up the black
> flag and fight
> > dirty.  It's not as though they'd retaliate by
> fighting dirty; they
> > already do.
> > 
> > Note that I am _not_ referring to any current
> actions, simply to a
> > theoretical stance.
> 
> There are reasons for 'playing by civilized rules'
> other than to encourage
> the enemy to do so.  We are a civilized people.  Our
> soldiers come from that
> civilized society.  If we 'play dirty', we can cause
> great harm to our own
> soldiers.  You cannot take a civilized person, send
> him off to do
> unspeakable acts, and then expect him to come home
> and fit well into
> civilized society.  You cannot even expect to
> maintain discipline.  You
> cannot let the enemy dictate your behavior in war.
> 

I think this is a difficult issue.  I can see both
sides.  I agree with Tod to a certain extent, but I
think at issue is the extent of the attrocities. 
Certainly the pilots that dropped the nuke's in Japan
weren't unable to maintain their discipline.  I do
think they fit into civilized society afterwards.  Yet
they perpetrated attrocities against civillians as
well as the enemy military.

You see, on the one hand, I don't think any of us
would agree that blanket killing of women and children
is acceptable regardless of who they are.  Yet, in
some cases, we did condone the use of nukes that
killed women and children.

But again, the climate of our country (even our world)
has changed since then.  I doubt there would have come
a time when there was condoned use of nukes against
Afganistan.  Maybe we would use them against Iraq. 
The biggest difference is what is necessary.  In WWII,
it was thought necessary to end the war quickly, hence
the use of nukes was condoned.  Now, despite our
President's use of the "Axis" term, there aren't any
enemies that rival THE Axis threat (at least not yet
anyway).


Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 14:15:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 13:15:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
Message-ID: <ba.29ce83ea.2a7af085@aol.com>

In a message dated 01/08/02 03:47:59 GMT Daylight Time, jrholmes@wi.rr.com 
writes:


Don't be so certain to dismiss Oliver Stone.  After all, he was the
person who wrote Conan the Barbarian for John Milius to direct.  While
a daren't minimize what Milius brought to the story in his direction,
Stone still did a fair job of the near impossible task of telling the
origin story plus telling a classic style adventure.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Stone's script isn't the one that was filmed. His was a far more ambitious 
project involving Conan descending into hell. I believe Milius retained 
chunks of dialogue but I'm not sure how much of Stone's work survived.

There's a good documentary on the Conan DVD but it's a while since I've seen 
it and my memory can be a bit shaky.

Charles

All of us a creatures of a day; the rememberer and the remembered alike

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 14:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 13:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <20020801195839.54151.qmail@web20905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B96EE599.67422%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 12:58 PM, Paul Walker at traveller_tv@yahoo.com wrote:
> 
> ObTrav:  Are there any "Rules" of war between the 3I
> and Zho's?  On either side, and who enforces them?
> 

Rules only in the sense of mutually agreed upon ones (treaties) which govern
the conduct of war.  Typically, these are mutually beneficial, such as those
rules governing the treatment of prisoners, noncombatant, etc.  That is not
to say that each side may have it's rules as well, for no other reason than
"we don't do that sort of thing in the Imperial Army".

I suspect that there is a treaty or at least a tacit understanding that one
does not nuke the other's planet into glass, at least where large civilian
populations are involved.  Possibly merely when a planet is readily
habitable.  Unrestrained nuclear war is bound to have very unpleasant and
lasting consequences.  And canon does not indicate a large number of
destroyed words along either the Zhodani or Solomani borders of the
Imperium.

Are there prisoner exchanges?  Probably.  These were a feature of the 18th
and 19th century European wars and this time period certainly influenced the
designer of our Olde Game.  Perhaps captured officers (or at least
gentlebeings) are even given their parole.

The whole model of interstellar war seems to be more based on the model of
the late 16th early 17th century, where only small parts of the
nation-states actively participated in the war, the majority of the
population went about their business and provinces and such were traded back
and forth.  The one notable exception seems to be the Solomani Rim war,
where ideology and the stability of the Imperium itself played a major
factor, and by all accounts, this was a very nasty war.  One that ended
without a formal armistice, but only an uneasy cessation of hostilities.

I expect that in the rim war, there were probably more atrocities,
particularly given the Solomani attitude about non-Solomani.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 14:20:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 13:20:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <200208012000.LVV03238@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B96EE5E2.67423%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 1:00 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> While I would shoot, say, a fellow soldier who engaged in an
> atrocity such as rape or torture, it is my belief that our
> soldiers should be allowed to write whatever strikes their
> fancy on the sides on bombs.  If someone comes home and his
> only aftereffect from the "war" is spontaneous graffiti,
> that's ok by me.

Agreed.  I didn't mean to suggest that this be taken to ridiculous extremes.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 14:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 13:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <20020801200953.4391.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B96EE955.67436%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 1:09 PM, Paul Walker at traveller_tv@yahoo.com wrote:

> 
> I think this is a difficult issue.  I can see both
> sides.  I agree with Tod to a certain extent, but I
> think at issue is the extent of the attrocities.
> Certainly the pilots that dropped the nuke's in Japan
> weren't unable to maintain their discipline.  I do
> think they fit into civilized society afterwards.  Yet
> they perpetrated attrocities against civillians as
> well as the enemy military.

I think this is a bad example (the Nuke bombing in WWII) since they had be
presaged by the mass bombing of cities with conventional bombs.  I
retrospect, many see mass bombings of civilians as atrocities, but to the
pilots of the B-29s over Hiroshi and Nagasaki dropping their nukes was just
another bombing raid, only with better bombs.

Personally, I don't see the bombing of Hiroshima an Nagasaki a any different
than the fire bombing of Dresden, or the random bombing of English cities by
the Germans.

Our sensibilities have changed.  Would mass bombing of Baghdad have been
acceptable to modern westerners?  Doubtful. Notice how the military went to
great pains to show that it was military targets that were being bombed.
WWII planners showed no such concern.  People like 'Bomber' Harris actively
defended the mass bombing of non-combatant civilians.
> 
> You see, on the one hand, I don't think any of us
> would agree that blanket killing of women and children
> is acceptable regardless of who they are.  Yet, in
> some cases, we did condone the use of nukes that
> killed women and children.

See above.  We condoned the mass killing of women and children with large
scale conventional bombs as well.
> 
> But again, the climate of our country (even our world)
> has changed since then.  I doubt there would have come
> a time when there was condoned use of nukes against
> Afganistan.  Maybe we would use them against Iraq.
> The biggest difference is what is necessary.  In WWII,
> it was thought necessary to end the war quickly, hence
> the use of nukes was condoned.  Now, despite our
> President's use of the "Axis" term, there aren't any
> enemies that rival THE Axis threat (at least not yet
> anyway).

I think it is more than just necessity.  It is a shrinking of our world, and
a change in attitude that says that even out enemies lives have a certain
value.  Ever watched a WWII Bugs Bunny cartoon.  The Germans, and
particularly the Japanese were horribly dehumanized.  We made our enemies
into monsters so then it was OK to exterminate them.

It's certainly not a new attitude. Look at Europeans attitudes of Africans
during the 19th century (white man's burden), or white Americans' vision of
blacks in our own country during the same period.

Nowadays, our sensibilities have change so dramatically that we worry about
whether we are mistreating animals.  During the gulf war there was even
concern about what impact military operations would have on the delicate
desert environment!
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 14:43:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Aug  1 13:43:22 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CDE@USCHM203>

"No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy."

I'm paraphrasing, and can't remember who said this. Maybe Clausewitz(SP?).

The way tactics and counter-tactics evolve, often on the fly, it seems that
in the "fighter swarm" case, you might get away with it once or twice, and
then capital ships would either add a swarm of escorts or a phalanx of point
defense weapons.
Traveller is a bit more static than our world when it comes to technology,
but military technology has been rapidly changing only for the last few
centuries. Earlier on there weren't many advances, but even though change
was slow, warfare has always evolved to meet each new "surefire tactic",
whether that change took a century or a month.
The point being, few "standard tactics", beyond "fix and flank", are going
to last long.
If I'm not mistaken, just about every armed force in WWII was constantly
evolving new tactics for new situations. 
Simply put:

Captain: Okay, this is how we did it yesterday, but this is what we're going
to do today.

The best example I can think of is the Normandy hedgerows. The US had
absolutely no plans whatsoever to take these formidable defensive positions
into account. They had simply been ignored in all planning.
Within weeks they had not only developed tactics to clear the hedgerows, but
had improvised existing equipment, jerry-rigged tanks with makeshift
"dozer-mount" hedgecutters, and directly implemented the new tactics in the
field.
No think-tanks. No research at the Aberdeen proving grounds. No statistics
and exhaustive analysis. They just thought it up and did it and it happened
to work.

As many of the posts have shown, there are so many variables in combat that
it is impossible to apply any neat categorization or standardization of
tactics. Warfare abounds with happy accidents, and what works today might be
disastrous tomorrow (and vice/versa).
I think Patton said(paraphrasing and probably naming the wrong source again)
"A mediocre plan executed immediately is better than a briliant plan
executed later."
Hit hard, hit first, and where they least expect it, and you can make up for
a lot of doctrinal weaknesses.
On the other hand, if you're talking about a set piece slugathon between
comarable forces, then it comes down to sheer mass, attrition, and whoever's
left when the dust clears.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 14:49:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 13:49:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <B96EE599.67422%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B96EE599.67422%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m3sn1yqp9b.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
>
> Perhaps captured officers (or at least gentlebeings) are even given
> their parole.

How exactly does this work?  Does one promise not to fight against
one's captor ever again, or simply for a time period, or until the end
of the current engagement, or until one has journeyed back home,
or...?  I've considered it pretty rotten that US soldiers are not
allowed to give their parole and get back home, but perhaps that's
just me.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I don't want to achieve immortality through my work.  I want to achieve
it by not dying.                                          --Woody Allen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 15:03:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 14:03:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <m3sn1yqp9b.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <B96EEFF4.6744B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 1:48 PM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> How exactly does this work?  Does one promise not to fight against
> one's captor ever again, or simply for a time period, or until the end
> of the current engagement, or until one has journeyed back home,
> or...?  I've considered it pretty rotten that US soldiers are not
> allowed to give their parole and get back home, but perhaps that's
> just me.

I'm not sure.  Naturally, it will depend on ones opponent.  Do the Joes have
a class with the same sense of honor as the Imperial aristocracy?  Perhaps
Imperial nobility and Zhodani adepts share some common standards of honor
and paroles are granted for the duration of hostilites.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 15:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Aug  1 14:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Character Conversions
Message-ID: <Springmail.0994.1028235993.0.26126500@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>

Paul Walker asked:
> 
> Has anyone ever come up with a good character
> conversion system?  I mean one that allows for
> conversion to CT, MT, TNE, T4, GT, and T20.
> 
> I know that some of these are very similar (MT
> & T4),
> but what about the others?

Some of the systems and skill sets are so different, I'm not sure if they can
all be consolidated. I've just finished converting a Zho generated from the CT
Zho supplement into GT and he's practically god-like (rolled incredibly well
back in '87 for psionics).

The GT conversion process, IMO, is overly generous to highly experienced
CT/TNE characters with upper-end stats.

Then again, I've played this guy through 5 long-term campaigns. Great for solo
runs but a bit overpowering with other, more youthful characters.

David Smart

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 15:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Thu Aug  1 14:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <3D480612.20345.F70592@localhost>
References: <3D46C8CE.8734.1C2B394@localhost> <3D480612.20345.F70592@localhost>
Message-ID: <02073117152800.00606@linux>

> That could be a bit tricky, considering that HG has no conversions for
> volume to mass. Using those from MT or FF&S seems a little pointless as
> they use different assumptions. The real difference would be that heavy
> armour would be less attractive, especially at lower TLs.

	Exactly.. which means that specialized ships ala battlecruisers (hms hood)
and fighter carriers could be viable and even cost effective. Given that 
there is never enough power or thrust....one must strike a balance to use 
what you have to be efficient. 
	I have to admit that I don't use high guard anymore (I am returning to 
gaming after a 15 year absence). I found a rule set I like with Bruce 
Macintosh's military combat system. I think it is better than hg 2nd ed. 
	Sorry if I came across as argumentive. With so many differrent rule sets
(ct/mt/tne/t4/gurps/t5/t20...etc.), I guess that the game of traveller is 
more a matter of background assumptions than a set of rules.And everybody has 
different ideas of how the universe should look and act.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 15:11:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Thu Aug  1 14:11:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
In-Reply-To: <20020801123223.5AA10451A@mo130uhou.palm.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0208011409330.15910-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>

On Thu, 1 Aug 2002, Mark Urbin wrote:

> Rob Davenport <rgd@infinet.com> wrote:
> >	Ed Wood's "Starship Troopers"
>
> Kenji Schwartz gave a good rant compairing ST to an Ed Wood movie.
> You can find it on my SciFi sig quote page.

Found it:

"IMHO, if we resurrected Ed Wood, and gave him the same budget to do Plan
9 From Outer Space as Verhoeven had to do Starship Troopers, I think we'd
have a contender on our hands. The eye candy would likely be just as good,
and the story about on a par." -- Kenji Schwarz on the Traveller Mailing
List.

I don't think he's that far off the mark.  :)

Rob




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 15:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu Aug  1 14:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <B96EE599.67422%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020801211106.5B7CE279A0@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/01/02 at 01:18 PM,  Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
said:

>on 8/1/02 12:58 PM, Paul Walker at traveller_tv@yahoo.com wrote: > 
>> ObTrav:  Are there any "Rules" of war between the 3I
>> and Zho's?  On either side, and who enforces them?
>> 

>Rules only in the sense of mutually agreed upon ones (treaties) which
>govern the conduct of war.  Typically, these are mutually beneficial,
>such as those rules governing the treatment of prisoners,
>noncombatant, etc.  That is not to say that each side may have it's
>rules as well, for no other reason than "we don't do that sort of
>thing in the Imperial Army".

IMTU...

The Imperium as set up "Rules of War" that apply to members of the
Imperium, and they enforce them, as they see fit, with Imperial
forces. Because the Imperium is ruled by men, not by laws, the Rules
of War are also whatever the men in charge say they are, but there are
a number of customary rules that the Gentlemen of the Imperium
generally subscribe to: No weapons of mass destruction (nukes,
biologicals, near-c rocks, etc), no genocide, limits on valid targets,
etc. 

When the Imperium deals with outsiders, all bets
are...potentially...off. However, the nobles of the Imperium are loath
to abandon their own rules even then, and generally won't unless the
other side does first. If, for example, an opponent doesn't engage in
slagged planet war against the Imperium, then neither does the
Imperium. Over time these conventions evolve into "unwritten rules"
between opponents, and as long as the cultures remain the same those
unwritten rules ("Dropping a rock on them just isn't cricket, old
boy!") will remain in effect.

What these unwritten rules are is up to you, but personally, I use
17th and 18th European rules concerning ransoms, hostages, pledges,
prisoner exchanges, not attacking non-combatants, fighting away from
civilian areas. and so on. Civilizated states abide by them,
barbarians don't.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 15:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Thu Aug  1 14:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <158.11a2925f.2a77b127@aol.com>
References: <158.11a2925f.2a77b127@aol.com>
Message-ID: <02073100275101.01008@linux>

On Tuesday 30 July 2002 05:06 am, you wrote:
> >This sounds like comparing apples and oranges........
>
> well yes, that was my whole point.  optimization can be had in the real
> (our) world, but in the traveller universe there's not much optimization to
> be had.
>
> >base acceleration and agility on displacement, NOT mass. Massive objects
> >(heavy-armor) will be slower and more sluggish unless equipped with
> >big-thrust engines, which means more fuel < more mass again > .
> > Optimization in this case counts.
>
> I completely agree.  but since traveller doesn't operate this way, now we
> are _really_ talking apples and oranges, and have changed the subject as
> well from traveller ship optimization to house rules.  in traveller, there
> are no optimization opportunities here.

	Then I humbly suggest that the rules for realistic thrusters ala 'hard 
times' or FF&S1 be followed in order for the Traveller universe to more 
closely mimic what we observe in the Real World tm. However I fully concede 
to you as long as ct or high guard is used.

> >Remember, military
> >spending is a hole that does not advance a world's economic growth, so it
> >must be kept to a minimum. Optimization Counts.
>
> ah yes, military spending.  but have you noticed that money is not at all
> the limiting factor in naval construction?  and even if it were, it's not
> the factor you make it out to be.  in the united states today, 250 million
> citizens contribute $300 billion or so annually in defense spending --
> that's $1200 from each man, woman, child, and illegal alien.  trillion
> credit squadron states that each imperial citizen contributes an average of
> 500Cr towards their navy -- I don't think that that is at all unreasonable,
> especially given that their military is primarily naval.  if anything it's
> too low, but it's still enough to allow the spinward marches to pay for
> about 2500 200kton battleships.  that's a lot of hardware, enough to put,
> what, ten battleships in each and every imperial spinward marches system. 
> what significant optimization can be had here?  there's some, but not much.

 hmmm... I must examine this .... after applying exchange rates and figuring 
the costs of support facilities, supplies and auxiliaries ( not to mention 
graft and 400$ hammers)

> >Also by using 'realistic'
> >thrust agents, fuel use becomes a major factor in fleet actions,
>
> as an aside, yeah, I suppose so.  but I subscribe completely to gary
> gygax's idea:  "More 'realistic' combat systems could certainly have been
> included here, but they have no real part in a game for a group of players
> having an exciting adventure."


Here is the schwerpunkt. Do people play traveller as a wargame...or do they 
play traveller as a RPG.?  How wonderful that there exists a game that can do 
both well.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 15:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Aug  1 14:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CE0@USCHM203>

"John T. Kwon" wrote:

>I think I see a pattern here...

>long time Traveller player...
>joins the military (some of us wished we did)...
>maybe even the Marines, (but Ft. Benning School For Boys is 
>OK)
>probably infantry...
>could be Navy, though...
>fiendish affection for small arms...
>ends up as a writer (gasp!) or a programmer (have to pay the 
>bills) or a lawyer!

>It almost looks like we saw our initial career paths in the 
>LBBs, and when we mustered out, we went and got "ordinary" 
>jobs.

LOL. It certainly crossed my mind. Oddly enough, I almost never played a
Marine character when I was younger. Had my heart set on West Point, but
didn't have the grades.

After "mustering out", I spent alot of time doing the usual PC thing,
hanging around in pubs looking for something exciting to do.

SPOILER ALERT
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Unfortunately, though I met many fascinating (and in some cases possibly
alien) characters, I was never asked to rescue a senator from an Imperial
prison hulk, reunite a Chirper with his siblings, discover a secret Zhodani
base, lead a trade mission to uncharted territory, investigate a
megacorporation, or run into "Grandfather". (actually, I think I might have
seen him after a particularly long bout of controlled substance indulgence
in New York --- might have just been a stone gargoyle on 3rd Avenue though).

The closest thing I ever did that could actually be considered "adventuring"
was driving a cab while in college. I'd rather be nosing around pyramids on
Yorbund than do THAT for a living again. Statistically, you'd be safer as an
Army Ranger.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 15:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Aug  1 14:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <sd494643.049@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
References: <sd494643.049@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
Message-ID: <20020802075436.A11303@freeman.little-possums.net>

Jeff D. Greenly wrote:
> I thought I would chime in, briefly, because I am of the opinion
> that Mr. Fly simply doesn't get it despite what the true warrior
> types on the TML have been (very patiently) explaining. TML hasn't
> been this interesting in a while!

In my estimation, the signal-to-noise ratio took an extreme dive since
Mr. Fly started posting :/


> I think that a massed assault by fighters, assault shuttles or other
> small craft in conjunction with light and medium ships of the line is a
> perfectly viable and certainly historically proven means of depriving
> the enemy of his capital ships.

I think I can sum up the counterargument: N3V3R H@PP3N!!1!

Besides, who is more suicidal in entering such a battle: the fighter
crew, some of whom will die in achieving victory; or the capital ship
crew, *all* of whom will die *pointlessly*?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <B96EEFF4.6744B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B96EEFF4.6744B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m3d6t2qlgr.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> 
> > How exactly does this work?  Does one promise not to fight against
> > one's captor ever again, or simply for a time period, or until the
> > end of the current engagement, or until one has journeyed back
> > home, or...?  I've considered it pretty rotten that US soldiers
> > are not allowed to give their parole and get back home, but
> > perhaps that's just me.
> 
> I'm not sure.  Naturally, it will depend on ones opponent.  Do the
> Joes have a class with the same sense of honor as the Imperial
> aristocracy?  Perhaps Imperial nobility and Zhodani adepts share
> some common standards of honor and paroles are granted for the
> duration of hostilites.

How did it work historically?  What forms of parole were granted?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
So Microsoft's invented the ASCII equivalent to ugly ink spots that
appear on your letter when your pen is malfunctioning.
        --Greg Andrews, about Microsoft's way to encode apostrophes

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Who Should Have Directed Starship Troopers?
References: <200208010008.LUH03387@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D49B311.B90AA08@mindspring.com>

"John T. Kwon" wrote:
> 
> Yes, I'm sure now it should have been John Waters.
> 
> And Divine should have played Sergeant Zim...
> ________________
> "I am Weasel!"
>
You're scaring me John.


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Why keep on enacting laws when we already have more than we can break.          
                             -Unknown

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:26:02 2002
Subject: Common TL (was Re: [TML] sword vs shotgun)
References: <6f.2b5bca38.2a79e68c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D49B516.D6ED825@mindspring.com>

GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Rupert Boleyn writes:
> 
> >Bear in mind that when CT was written anything over about TL12 was
> >pretty uncommon.
> 
> And should still be, frankly. One of MTs mistakes (laid firmly at the feet of
> DGP) was that suddenly everyone was using TL15 equipment, flying TL15
> starships, and eating TL15 food. And shopping at 'G'.
> 
> Now I realize that a number of the TL15 worlds are true powerhouses of
> production, but asking Glisten to keep half the Marches in gadgets is asking
> a bit much of the (already much abused) economic model...
> 
> GC
> 

Glisten keeps Glisten subsector and portions of the Trojan Reach sector in TL 15 gadgets. Soon they
will be keeping Forine/District 268 in TL 15 missiles ;p

-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Why keep on enacting laws when we already have more than we can break.          
                             -Unknown

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:27:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:27:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <memo.528804@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <m3d6t2qlgr.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
> How did it work historically?  What forms of parole were granted?

The whole thing worked on the principle of 'an officer and a gentleman' 
and the fact that honour was paramount and no gentleman would break his 
word.

Various levels of parole could be granted. An officer might give his 
parole not to escape, and be permitted to wander freely, but within 
bounds, around the place he was being held. He usually had to be back by 
nightfall, or a set time, and sleep in the premises provided. He might be 
limited to a castle, or to the surrounding village, or whatever. He might 
even be permitted to go horseback riding, perhaps with an escort.

Sometimes officers were permitted to return home, having given their 
parole not to bear arms against their captors. This might be conditional, 
in that once an officer of equivalent rank had been sent back the other 
way, he would be free to enter the fray again. Basically a prisoner 
exchange, only one would be allowed to go home in advance on the 
understanding that he wouldn't fight until the exchange had been 
completed.

It was always a personal matter, not one of policy. If you came home 'on 
parole' it was up to you to inform your superiors that you were not 
available to fight until the terms of your parole had been met.

There's a fine fictional example in one of the Hornblower novels. 
Hornblower, who'd been captured by the Spanish, had given his parole and 
was permitted to wander the village in which he was being held. One day he 
was on a nearby headland and spotted some fishermen in difficulties in 
stormy seas. He was allowed to take a boat out and rescue them, but 
conditions were such that the whole party were swept out to sea - where 
they were picked up by an English warship. The captain was all for 
welcoming him back with open arms (and locking up the French seamen), but 
Hornblower not only insisted that, as civilian fishermen, they should be 
let loose, he also demanded to go back too, so as to keep his given word 
not to attempt to escape from the village.

Other ranks (enlisted personnel), not being 'gentlemen,' could not give 
parole, so just got locked up!

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20020731221815.00a378c0@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <3D49B623.C79BF0B5@mindspring.com>

Hal wrote:
> 
> Another thing to consider?
> 
> When you are in a war against an enemy you and your compatriots HATE with a
> consuming passion - you may find that the problem isn't in getting your
> fighter crews to go out against your enemy - but in keeping them from being
> TOO aggressive.
> 
> One other thing that is often overlooked here when it comes to psychology
> of war?  Being in a fighter platform instead of a ship's laser power plant
> generator room - permits the fighter pilot to feel that his actions *DO*
> count in the battle.
> 
> A final comment on this before I have to go to work:
> 
> If you have a large enough pool of pilots for use in the battles ahead, and
> it has become naval doctrine to use fighters in a swarm mode - naval
> trainers will be indoctrinating their fighter pilots to accept the fact
> that 100 fighters lives in exchange for 1,000 enemy lives is a fair
> trade.  It takes months to build a hull of note.  It takes weeks to build a
> fighter platform.  There are More Class B starports able to churn out
> fighters than there are class A starports churning out capital ships.  I
> really think someone should take the time and effort to build up a
> "fictional" sector for use in a massive campaign over the net...  Hmmmm -
> HIGH GUARD and TCS rules anyone? ;)
> 
>               Hal
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Why fictional? How about the FFW encompassing all of the marches. 
-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Why keep on enacting laws when we already have more than we can break.          
                             -Unknown

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <20020801182128.9068d26d087748de93de63949d36b6f5.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>One need only to look at the Battle of the Atlantic to see how much of
>an effect esprit de corps and loyalty go towards men willingly going
>into grave danger. I may be slightly off on my numbers, but the U-Boat
>service saw the highest losses of ANY service branch, across all
>nationalities during WW II. Something like 80% of all U-boatmen were KIA
>towards the end of the war, with the average life expectancy being a
>week. 

Toward the end, yes.  But remember, the life expectancy was changing
constantly through-out the war.  An aggressive U-Boat skipper would almost
assuredly die on his first patrol in 1945 while a similar man in 1940 would
have racked-up patrols and kills for close to a year without much risk.

>Funny how there were more volunteers than the service needed right up
>to the end of the war, and there was never a single incidence of mutiny
>(although there was ONE incident where a u-boat captain was executed for
>cowardice in the face of the enemy. This was based on the testimony of
>his crew and his own logs!) The crews KNEW things were rough.There were
>a lot more u-boats missing than ones that came back to port, and of the
>ones that did come back in, very few had any kills to their credit as
>the war dragged on. They knew that the time of the Paukenschlag and the
>Gray Wolves were over. But they went for Onkel Karl and they went for
>glory, and they went because they were the cream of the crop and they
>knew it, and they died in STAGGERING numbers. 

I think you are overestimating how much the crewmembers knew at the time.  A
lot of U-Boats would be missing from the subpens at Brest or Lorient when a
sub got back, but that could be explain by saying the ships were on patrol.
They probably did know a lot more about losses then Allied submariners,
because the U-Boats were too chatty on the radios for their own good (A
fatal weakness for Karl Donitz's force even without Ultra.  At least one
U-Boat was sunk within an hour of radioing in to U-Boat HQ, after being
detected by radio direction finders.  The ironic part of the saga was the
sub's message.).

Also, officers for the U-Boat fleet often were not volunteers, or were not
given the chance to - Officers of the Kriegsmarine were EXPECTED to go to
whatever duty station they were assigned without comment.  When Martin
Middlebrook interviewed some veterans for his book _Convoy_, the U-Boat
officers often were surprised at the question of volunteering.  Some of the
crewmembers of the U-Boats also seemed to have "volunteered" under less then
voluntary circumstances

>I think that a massed assault by fighters, assault shuttles or other
>small craft in conjunction with light and medium ships of the line is a
>perfectly viable and certainly historically proven means of depriving
>the enemy of his capital ships. All it takes is one hit and you're
>halfway there. Stop and think. A big ship, crewed by thousands and
>costing hundreds of millions of credits can be taken out of action by a
>force of craft costing a tenth and crewed by 1-3 men each. Combine that
>fighter attack with coups d'grace administered by a number of cruisers,
>destroyers, frigates and so on, and you have a very flexible multi-role
>force for a lot less than a fleet full of big ships. There's a reason
>the US Navy (as well as most other modern fleets!) is comprised the way
>it is. Learn from it.

"Most"?  I would be careful about that.

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

 My Sale List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
 My Want List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:31:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:31:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <20020801182132.8dc5803e76f94f1f98d7b72b3352174c.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>> >The USN's Devastators had been in service ~7 years and was an 
>> obselescent 
>> >design too, although not as bad as the Swordfish(1).
>> 
>> The Swordfish was not bad....And for the role it was intended, it was
>> probably better then the TBD!  Which is a sad commentary on US naval
>> aviation more then anything else.
>
>OTOH, the Stringbag was never sent into battle against carrier-based 
>fighters.  The TBD pilots at Midway, meanwhile, had to try to survive 
>without fighter cover against the A6M Zero.  Hardly a fair contest (of 
>course, any military leader who tries to fight war _fairly_ isn't doing 
>the job correctly).

True.  The Japanese pilots would have still mopped the floor with any
torpedo bombers.  Then again, the Stringbag did not have to serve in the
Pacific.  Good thing too, since the Japanese managed to massacre the torpedo
bombers the British DID have in the early days of the Pacific War
(Wildebeasts, IIRC.).

FYI, the Brewster Buffalo has such a bad reputation because of its poor
combat performance against the Japanese.  Yet we are talking about the same
fighter that managed to beat the Grummen Wildcat in the US Navy's
competition for a carrier fighter just before World War 2.  If Brewster had
not proven so inept in actually building and upgrading the fighter, then we
would be seeing Buffalos tangling with Zeros at Midway....

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

 My Sale List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
 My Want List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <76.201d4ff6.2a7b1285@aol.com>

 >>  >They might want more choices besides Dreadnaughts.
 >>
 >> Show me your choices.  I'd love to see 'em.
 >
 >Low-end ships so you can do all your jobs within your budget maybe?

I understand that, but there's the question of what your enemy is doing.  
Consider the extreams -- if your goal is to win engagements then you'll want 
a few expensive capital ships, but if you want to "do all the jobs" then 
you'll want a herd of warm bodies (as it were).  Between the extreams is the 
balance -- but where is it?  I think it's way over in the "win engagements" 
side.  If you "cover all the bases" with warm bodies but have to flee every 
time the heavyweight enemy shows up then what good is that?  There is no 
substitute for victory, and to get that victory you need the heavyweights and 
you need more of them than your enemy.

 >Patrol ships and tankers and whatever you plan to escort the talkers with.

If by patrol you mean scouts, then yes.  But if you mean general policing 
then I'd think that would be a local police matter and not a fleet matter.  
If I'm an admiral at Jewell looking at 1000 Zhodie capital ship in Cronor, 
and I hear about some pirates at Enope, I'd have to set priorities and ask 
Wochiers to deal with it.  Since imminent war is not a constant threat, if 
some patrols were desperately needed by local governments then I'd send some 
screening vessels to deal with the problem and then return.

As for tankers (?), if I had any I'd just keep them with the fleet.

>The USN,
>for example, has other ships than carriers or attack subs (whichever you
>consider to be the capital ship). Most navies have some high-end combat
>ships and low-end workhorses.

That's because of real-world issues regarding weapon load capacities, size vs 
speed, air / surface / sub environment requirements, hull-shape requirements, 
and dozens of other factors, make such specialization necessary and 
effective.  These issues don't transfer well to a Traveller universe.  In 
Traveller everyone can go just as fast as the next guy, they all can carry 
the same weapons, there's no limitation on size or hull configuration, and so 
on.  Would you put an Ageis system on a cargo ship?  You can do it in 
Traveller, and it works.  Would you put ten inch armor on a destroyer?  You 
can do it in Traveller, and it works.  Effective combat ships will all tend 
towards the same hull/weapons/defenses configuration, and specialization will 
become mere limitation.

My Spinward Marches Colonial Fleet has supply vessels, hospital ships, 
minesweepers, and other stuff in addition to its capital vessels.  But they 
are all sideshows, and minor elements of the fleet -- maybe 5% of the total 
tonnage.  I intend to win the major engagements first -- I'll clean up any 
leftover messes after I win.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <bf.241eecb7.2a7a4368@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D49BA6B.37759812@mindspring.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> 
>  >>asking hundreds of them at a time to give up their lives all
>  >>at once, just to make a tactic work, in one segment of a
>  >>single battle, is not an insignificant outlay for THEM.
>  >>(push button) "go do this, guys."  (lights
>  >>flash) "ok."  it doesn't work that way.
>  >
>  >See the battle of Midway.  The low level torpedo attack
>  >planes that sacrificed themselves to Japanese anti-aircraft
>  >fire so that the dive bombers would have a chance.
> 
> Yes, with a huge Japanese fleet threatening their homeland and only them
> standing between the yellow peril and their families.  It was not, however, a
> standard tactic, employed "because they'll tolerate it".

Read Miracle at Midway a few years back. IIRC the torpedo planes were the ones EXPECTED to take out
the jap ships. But communication, navigation and planning errors resulted in the attacks being
uncoordinated and the TBY's? wound up being slaughtered by the jap CAP and the ships. When the dive
bombers showed up there were no planes in a position to oppose their attack.


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Why keep on enacting laws when we already have more than we can break.          
                             -Unknown

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMEKKCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com>
>
>yes!  Yes!  YESSSS!!!!!
>
>I have arrived.  I have my first keyboard kill.  And
>from Glenn, too, an honored old timer and regular.
>
>I think I'll print it out on paper suitable for framing.

Don't get cocky, kid.  We'll teach ya the secret handshake and stuff at
BayCon or if ya come down ta San Jose on a game day.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:55:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:55:33 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Acceptable losses
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEKKCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
>
>No, you don't understand.  Every unit must have a Texan (known as
>Tex), a Brooklyner, a racist Southerner, an effete intellectual, a Jew
>and half-a-dozen Midwesterners.  At least, acc. to the war movies:-)

The war movies, of course, took that demography from Norman Mailer's The
Naked and the Dead.  (The man who recommended it to me was a decorated NCO
veteran of the Pacific campaign, and he said that it was very true to his
experience.  It is indeed a great book.)

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:56:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:56:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  juries
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Flykiller@aol.com

someone wrote:
>Amateur juries
>seem to me to be ill equipped to handle many kinds of cases.

Flykiller@aol.com replied:
>True.  And irrelevant to why they exist.  Juries aren't meant to be
>professional, quite the opposite.  Juries are meant to be a last and final
>check and balance against governmental power over individual citizens.  The
>government can't put anyone in jail unless they can get a bunch of amateur
>citizens to agree.  It's preferable to the alternative.

If you can't explain your case so that twelve ordinary people understand it,
then you don't understand your case adequately.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:56:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:56:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
>
>Sure, not now: a video game, even a military simulator, is simply not
>possible of fully-simulating flight, combat &c.  But thousands of
>years in the future that's not an issue.  If you can damp inertia and
>fake gravity, you can fake the motions and sensations of combat.  If
>you can broadcast in 3D, you can generate a photo-realistic world
>outside the phony cockpit windows.  The only thing you _cannot_
>simulate is the fear of death--and real military training cannot AFAIK
>do that either; only actual flight time can do that.

"I'm sorry, but it appears that Cadet Uhl was killed by the simulator.  In
the simulation, he accelerated his fighter to very high speed, then crashed
it into the drives of an enemy battleship.  The simulation ran its gravitics
to simulate the crash and increased the temperature to simulate the fire
when his L-Hyd tanks exploded.  The combination of being crushed and burned
caused injuries that we were unable treat effectively.  Next!"

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:57:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:57:06 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Acceptable losses
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>
>
>"You know what the difference was between a rich Yankee and a rich
>Southerner? The rich Yankee paid someone to take his place in the army, and
>the rich Southerner outfitted his own regiment."

"An Aramisian doesn't mind if the Vargr live close, as long as they don't
get uppity.  A Reginan doesn't mind if the Vargr get uppity, as long as they
don't live close."

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:58:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:58:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
>There have been references to Imperial rules concerning
>warfare - are there really any in canon?  No use of nukes by
>non-Imperial forces?  Meson guns?  No genocide?  Eh?

Striker and, I think, MegaTraveller Imperial Encyclopedia, state the
Imperial rules of war.  Here's my view of them.

1.  These "rules" are not a code for combatants.  They are guidelines to aid
local Imperial officials in exercising their discretion about whether to
intervene in a conflict or not.  They are not written down, and they don't
bind anybody.

2.  These rules only apply to situations in which all combatants are
Imperial citizens, or in the employ of Imperial citizens.

3.  The Imperium may choose to intervene if nuclear weapons are in the
possession or use of either side.  Query whether californium or uranium
rounds count as "nuclear" weapons.  Other weapons of mass destruction may
trigger Imperial intervention.

4.  The Imperium may choose to intervene if there is unreasonable off-world
influence in a matter involving a single member state.

5.  War involving space and star craft is permitted, as long as interstellar
commerce is not unduly affected.

"Unduly," "unreasonable," "choose" -- this are only guidelines for Imperial
officials to consider in exercising their discretion.  The rules of war will
not support any sort of legal action (war being, after all, the opposite of
law).

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 17:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug  1 16:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <bf.241eecb7.2a7a4368@aol.com> <3D49BA6B.37759812@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <001801c239b1$63165dc0$cb16bd50@martinjd>

>
> Read Miracle at Midway a few years back. IIRC the torpedo planes were the
ones EXPECTED to take out
> the jap ships. But communication, navigation and planning errors resulted
in the attacks being
> uncoordinated and the TBY's? wound up being slaughtered by the jap CAP and
the ships. When the dive
> bombers showed up there were no planes in a position to oppose their
attack.

That's pretty much what I thought/said...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 17:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Thu Aug  1 16:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
In-Reply-To: <sd495bcc.012@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020801180714.00a7fc80@minn.net>

"Jeff D. Greenly" <jgreenly@hsc.wvu.edu> wrote:
>Would a world that has 80% of its surface covered by water, a dense
>nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, and one moon that is large enough to exert a
>tidal effect tend to be more or less climatically active? Assume
>moderate (terran-normal) vulcanism and a fairly non-polluting early TL
>aqua/agricultural society. Also assume standard polar ice caps and
>rotation around 20 deg. off the plane of the ecliptic. I'll welcome any
>and all comments...

Jeff, I think you may be spending a little too much time at the keyboard.

Go outside, take a walk, relax. Enjoy the weather. ;-)


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
"Do you know how fast you were going on that pogo stick?"
"From now on, everyone in Wisconsin will be named Wally."
				-- Colin Mockerie
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 17:09:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  1 16:09:22 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <200208012308.LWB03316@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>Besides, who is more suicidal in entering such a battle: the 
>fighter crew, some of whom will die in achieving victory; or 
>the capital ship crew, *all* of whom will die *pointlessly*?

Regardless of the ship types, small or large, space combat 
has to be fairly lethal to the crew - if we take the Crew-1 
at its basic form.

If Side A wins the battle, does this mean they attempt to 
salvage some Side B ships?  Is there a nuclear scuttle option 
for capital ships to prevent enemy use?  Or would Side A 
plant nuclear demolition charges on the wrecks of Side B to 
ensure that damaged ships are not recovered?
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 17:20:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug  1 16:20:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <76.201d4ff6.2a7b1285@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c239b3$7174bb80$cb16bd50@martinjd>

>  >Low-end ships so you can do all your jobs within your budget maybe?
>
> I understand that, but there's the question of what your enemy is doing.
> Consider the extreams -- if your goal is to win engagements then you'll
want
> a few expensive capital ships, but if you want to "do all the jobs" then
> you'll want a herd of warm bodies (as it were).  Between the extreams is
the
> balance -- but where is it?  I think it's way over in the "win
engagements"
> side.

Engagemnents of what sort? Enough commerce raiders can cripple your economy
(Battle of the Atlantic etc) despite your excellent battle fleet. If the
engagements you need to win are escort/raider ones, then you need many ships
to cover the area, but ones good enough to beat or deter the raiders.

> If you "cover all the bases" with warm bodies but have to flee every
> time the heavyweight enemy shows up then what good is that?  There is no
> substitute for victory, and to get that victory you need the heavyweights
and
> you need more of them than your enemy.

You need greater concentration of force at the critical point. That can be
done with less ships, better handled and supported.

That said, victory is not necessarily gained by defeating the enemy battle
fleet. If you do that, but he scrubs your industrial worlds with planetary
raider ships, or kills your economy with commerce raiders, then you may not
have won at all.


>
>  >Patrol ships and tankers and whatever you plan to escort the talkers
with.
>
> If by patrol you mean scouts, then yes.  But if you mean general policing
> then I'd think that would be a local police matter and not a fleet matter.

I mean patrol ships to defeat piracy, commerce raiding and smuggling, to
catch enemy intelligence ships and recon vessels, to prevent the stockpiling
of forward supply bases, to gain intelligence, to show the flag and keep
systems in line....

> If I'm an admiral at Jewell looking at 1000 Zhodie capital ship in Cronor,
> and I hear about some pirates at Enope, I'd have to set priorities and ask
> Wochiers to deal with it.  Since imminent war is not a constant threat, if
> some patrols were desperately needed by local governments then I'd send
some
> screening vessels to deal with the problem and then return.

My point is that a fleet needs more than capital ships. You have to HAVE the
anti-pirate ships to be able to do your job.

>
> As for tankers (?), if I had any I'd just keep them with the fleet.

Tankers and logistics ships. They need to move around to be useful; they
have to be replenished and returned to the fleet. Just keeping the fleet in
missiles is a huge undertaking. Logistics vessels, by definition, have to
move around to be any use. But my point, again, was that you have to have
some.

>
> >The USN,
> >for example, has other ships than carriers or attack subs (whichever you
> >consider to be the capital ship). Most navies have some high-end combat
> >ships and low-end workhorses.
>
> That's because of real-world issues regarding weapon load capacities, size
vs
> speed, air / surface / sub environment requirements, hull-shape
requirements,
> and dozens of other factors, make such specialization necessary and
> effective.  These issues don't transfer well to a Traveller universe.  In
> Traveller everyone can go just as fast as the next guy, they all can carry
> the same weapons, there's no limitation on size or hull configuration, and
so
> on.  Would you put an Ageis system on a cargo ship?  You can do it in
> Traveller, and it works.  Would you put ten inch armor on a destroyer?
You
> can do it in Traveller, and it works.  Effective combat ships will all
tend
> towards the same hull/weapons/defenses configuration, and specialization
will
> become mere limitation.

Specialization allows you to afford more ships optimized to a certain role.
You need X patrol ships, Y cruisers, etc. To fulful your low-level
requirements and your fleet screening duties. To be couriers and recon
vessels... by making some of them low-end ships for low-risk misisons, you
have more money available for enough capital ships to do their job.

>
> My Spinward Marches Colonial Fleet has supply vessels, hospital ships,
> minesweepers, and other stuff in addition to its capital vessels.  But
they
> are all sideshows, and minor elements of the fleet -- maybe 5% of the
total
> tonnage.  I intend to win the major engagements first -- I'll clean up any
> leftover messes after I win.

Where will you fight these engagements? How will you make sure you have the
choice of where and when to meet the enemy fleet? What happens if he feints
and threatens with the battle fleet in being and floods your systems with
commerce raiders to break up your logistics chain?





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 17:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Thu Aug  1 16:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <20020801232333.17172.qmail@web11308.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
This tactic is presented not as a desperation move,
but an ordinary one to be implemented if said navy can
put up with it.  To which I responded that 
no fighter pilot community would tolerate it.  Even if
the attacking squadron is originally 1000, after two
capital ships they'll be combat ineffective 
using this tactic, and there will be NO volunteers to
replace them until the tactic 
is discarded.
END QUOTE

But wouldn't more people die if it was cap ship vs.
cap ship?

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://digital.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Digital How To
- Get the best out of your PC!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 17:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  1 16:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <200208012327.LWC00112@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"MJ Dougherty" says
>Where will you fight these engagements? How will you make 
>sure you have the choice of where and when to meet the enemy 
>fleet? What happens if he feints and threatens with the 
>battle fleet in being and floods your systems with
>commerce raiders to break up your logistics chain?

As I believe was mentioned before, those little fighters make 
excellent raiders - You could probably build fairly small, 
fairly cheap ones that would, especially in numbers, lay 
waste to the typical merchant ships.  The ship that carried 
them might not be very large, and could remain far outsystem.

Let me think about this for a while...
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 17:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug  1 16:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <43.f41b3de.2a7a45aa@aol.com> <026001c23992$31805e60$18130050@amoreton>
Message-ID: <007001c239b5$5c29c3e0$cb16bd50@martinjd>

>
>
>
> > >HMS Glow-worm ramming the Admiral Hipper comes to mind. The destroyer's
> >  >mass
> >  >was literally the only thing that might hurt the cruiser, and if she
> wasn't
> >  >hurt then the convoy would be massacred. Her skipper knew his ship
would
> >  >sink; he knew many (but probably not all) of his crew would die. But
the
> >  >decision was made in the face of the enemy, for a clear goal - to save
> >  >hundreds of helpless merchant seamen. Would the crew have accepted an
> >  >Admiralty policy of "we're not giving you torpedoes. You're to close
and
> >  >ram, then sink"? In desperate times, some people actually would. But,
> say,
> >  >in 1934? Nope.
>
> Not to disagree with    the point of the comment but some details on the
> loss of HMS Glowworm  was not escorting a convoy at the time of the battle
> with the Hipper, she had been part of a minelaying sortie off the
Norwegian
> coast she became seperated from her consorts and came across on of the
> Hipper's escrting destroyers. In the prevailing bad weather the Glowworm
was
> forced into close action with the Hipper, the Hipper attempted to run down
> the Glowworm and then the Captain of the Glowworm  Lt Cmdr Gerald G Rooper
> deceided to Ram the Hipper he succeeded adn the impact carried away 120
feet
> of the hippers side plate and let in 528 tons of water , the Hipper
carried
> on with a 4 degree list and accomplished her mission. Many of the
Glowworms
> crew where saved by German vessels not including her captain who drowned
> while being rescued , he was postumously awarded the VC.

OOps. I stand corrected. I was confusing the incident with Sherbrooke's
action vs German cruisers.

> You may perhaps be confusing the Glowworm with 2 British Armed Merchant
> crusiers the Jarvis Bay as the lone escort of a convoy the Jarvis Bay a
> converted liner with about 6 obsolete 6 inch guns when the convoy
> encountered the Pocket Battleship Admiral Scheer heavily armoured and
armed
> with 6 11 inch guns . The Jarvis Bay charged the Admiral Scheer drawing
the
> Fire of the Scheer upon herself allowing the Convoy to scatter to safety
> .her Captain E S F Fegan was awarded the VC posthumously.

I wasn't confusing with the Jervis Bay incident, thanks for pointiong it
out - it stands as another example.

>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 17:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug  1 16:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <e6.2be0ca41.2a7a3051@aol.com> <m3ptx2twnf.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <00ca01c239b8$93015920$cb16bd50@martinjd>

> >
These fighters, BTW.

How are they getting to the battle area? By carrier?

I wonder if I can survive long enough to fly through your fighter screen and
kill the carrier with my meson guns/particle accelerators etc. If I kill
enough carriers, your fighters also die.

Or perhaps I can disrupt your chain of supply enough that you can't replace
the fighters you've lost, or the missiles they expend. Maybe I can avoid
contact until your fighters have to return to base, or until they've thinned
out enough by needing to rotate on station that I can slaughter them. (A
capital ship can remain at combat readiness for a LOT longer than a 2-man
fighter, and doesn't degrade as much over time).

Maybe my escorts and fighter screen can keep my capital ships unscrubbed
while I punch through to kill your carriers and support ships.

We seem to be assuming a straight fight between equal tonnages of fighters
and capital ships, both ready and willing to go. Like when does that sort of
thing happen?

We need also consider mobility, duration of readiness, concentration of
force...etc. If, instead of a "stand-up fight" we consider a longer-term,
wider-area situation - even just the "war-fighting" aspect - then I believe
that a fighter force cannot deliver what the war-fighters need.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:01:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:01:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Energy Blade and Meditation
Message-ID: <3D49CB95.D906C0CF@ameritech.net>

> Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 10:09:06 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Chris Tann <chris_tann@yahoo.com>
>
> Hi all,
>
> I rolled up a character for MT using TravGen Character generation,
> and picked two skills I can't find details on in MT or CT. Can
> someone please let me know what version of Trav they're in? If
> you could also send me a description, that would be great, and
> I'll see if I can convinve my referee to use them...
>
> Meditation
> Energy Blade
>
> I guess Energy Blade relates to a weapon, so details on that
> would be useful too.

These look like a homebrew attempt to use Traveller for a more Star
Warsey kind of game. Perhaps the author of the software in question
knows where they came from.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:02:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:02:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
References: <F137of0aYhHnKZ1nSIz0000ee76@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <00d301c239b9$457629a0$cb16bd50@martinjd>

Because, the airstrikes were cheaper

** And also, perhaps, because the airstikes were first. They could have a go
NOW. If they failed, there was a backup. But waitng for the battle line
might have let the Yamato slip through their fingers - bad weather, faulty
recon, whatever. Or some other crisis (hard to imagine what, but...) might
have drawn the battle line away.

To misquote from the Patton threat - better to do something NOW than
something better LATER


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Hamill)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #847 - 24 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20020731210410.11007.92126.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020802000733.27197.qmail@web21509.mail.yahoo.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

"Message: 8
From: Flykiller@aol.com
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 15:52:03 EDT
Subject: [TML] Acceptable losses
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

 >> 750 / what, 6 years? = 125 per year, about one
every three days.  
hardly
 >> the same as several hundred in one segment of one
line battle in 
one day.
 >
 >What about the whole "over the top" attitude of WWI?
Pouring 
thousands of 
 >lives into suicidal charges for far less gain than
trading a few 
hundred 
 >pilots for a capitol ship? And this was not a
desparation tactic, but 
was 
the 
 >"standard" tactic of the day. Sure I imagine that
the commanders on 
either 
 >side underestimated the potential loss of life, but
several hundred 
lives 
in 
 >one segment of one battle in one day is not as
perposterous as it 
sounds, 
 >when you compare it to infantry losses. How many
marines did the U.S. 
pour 
 >into islands like Iwo Jima and Okinawa in WWII? And
the U.S. was more 
or 
less 
 >winning the war at that stage.

Now that's a good answer and worthy of a good
response.  Let's see how 
well I 
do.

Leading up to WW1 and contributing to it was a vast
and actively 
advanced 
cultural attitude of "God, king and country".  War was
taught as being 
a 
noble and natural thing, and the ancient Greek
attitude of "It is good 
to die 
for one's country" was widely believed.  The concept
of evolution had 
been 
recently introduced, and the idea of competition
between nations and 
peoples 
was very popular.  England was defending its
established empire (on 
which the 
sun never set, a tremendous source of English pride),
Germany was 
determined 
to  expand and find its place in the sun and prove
themselves to the 
world, 
and the French as always felt they were just too
superior to lose.  
National 
pride everywhere was at its peak, and everyone was
ready.  The 
conditions for 
war were as perfect as they will ever be without
scientific 
brainwashing.  
When it came huge numbers said goodby to their mothers
and their 
numerous 
brothers and received the blessings of their priests
and rushed off to 
prove 
their manhood and their courage and their nationality
in this great 
opportunity of their time, thinking that this war
would be similar to 
the 
wars their fathers had fought and celebrated.

It wasn't.  It was a fixed slaughter.  No-one expected
what happened, 
no-one 
could conceive it, and all from the generals to the
privates were slow 
to 
recognize it and accept it.  "Just one more attack,
just one more push, 
and 
we can break through and be like the knights of old." 
Everyone was 
brave, 
but machine guns could mow down entire companies of
the bravest men who 
had 
ever been born.

Their enthusiasm was mowed down as well.  It took a
long time -- the 
enthusiasm had been engendered by generations of
education and cultural 
beliefs and previous survival of other wars --  but
when battles suck 
up 
100,000 men at a pop, for nothing, then even the most
patriotic 
competitors 
realize they're in a suckers game.  In the east the
Russians absorbed 
enormous casualties, then murdered their leaders and
withdrew from the 
war.  
The west, taking fewer casualties and being less
oppressed, still 
rebelled in 
its own way.  The French army actually revolted --
they didn't desert, 
but 
they refused to engage in any offensive action for a
while.  Most 
sections of 
the western front settled down to a routine of firing
off a few shells 
in the 
morning to satisfy their activity reports to their
superiors and then 
relaxing the rest of the day.  In the west battles
began to come only 
after 
enormous preparations and planning, showing the men
that "we can do 
this" 
with monstrously huge artillery bombardments, the
attitude always being 
"One 
more big push and we can finally have the war we
expected."  But it 
never 
happened.

After the war everyone, victors and losers alike, felt
betrayed and 
lied to.  
No-one was happy with the loss of half of an entire
generation.  The 
overriding attitude for decades afterwards was "Never
again."  Neville 
Chamberlain, that so-called appeaser, was a very
popular man in his 
time.

The WW1 over-the-top charge is not really comparable
to the tactic 
under 
discussion.  It was not a standard tactic for that
war, it was an 
inappropriate tactic engendered by ignorance and
generations of 
no-longer-relevant experience.  In the beginning men
did it seeking the 
kind 
of victory they had been led all their lives to
expect, and in the end 
they 
did it out of desperation, rote, and habit, still
seeking that victory.  
When 
(mind you) the _surviving victors_ finally realized
how misled and 
blind they 
had been for four years they turned violently against
what they had 
been 
taught and rejected it for decades.  Many still do to
this day.  NOW 
.... if 
you take hundreds of ambitious highly trained educated
and egotistical 
men 
(pilots are egotistical, they have to be) who are not
there to do grunt 
infantry work, and up-front tell them that their
standard ordinary 
everyday 
tactic will be to hurl themselves to their deaths by
the hundreds in 
the 
hope-against-hope that one or two of them might get
lucky and destroy a 
single capital ship ... well, they're going to race
through that whole 
four-year learning curve in one second and tell you no
way, and your 
pool of 
candidate pilots will dry up immediately.

there's leadership, and then there's armchair
generalship.  armchair 
generals 
that somehow wind up leading troops often get
fragged."

I'm sorry, but this has gotten rediculous. You go
around throwing the term "armchair general" around,
attempting to refute this point, when I don't think
you really know what the point is. The statement was
that at higher tech levels, fighters could damage or
"mission kill" capitol ships, but that the casualties
among the fighters would be high. In an intersteller
nation, with the resources of thousands of worlds,
some with populations many times larger than our own,
do you really think it would be so hard to recruit
vast numbers of qualified pilot types. Especially
since, in the real world, they almost always turn
viable candidates away from pilot training programs in
the USAF, and almost every other military in the
world? And then wash large numbers out, for almost
trivial reasons? It strains credibility to think the
Imperium would not be able to do this, not to mention
their opponents. 
The Zhodani would have no problem getting enough
people with the right manual dexterity and spatial
awareness to qualify. As for their attitude and
"obedience to orders", that is what the Tvarchedl is
for. Guaranteed to risk it all, for the "protection"
of the Consulate. The Vargr? A bit more problematic,
but they, as a race, seem to have even more of a
problem with "macho" a young humans do. I imagine if
you had a couple of charismatic senoir pilots, and
gave the fighters flashy paint jobs you could get a
fairly large number of Vargr to volunteer. And the
Sword Worlds? Almost tailored as a group where this
would be a viable tactic. I imaging you could get
thousands of the lower class youth on your average
Sword World planet to volunteer, to become one of the
"warrior elite", similar to the character played by
George Peppard in "The Blue Max". 
You have to think in terms of percentages, not actual
numbers, to determine your risk of becoming a casualty
in wartime. Many people who would gladly risk
themselves in air combat, even if the chances were
high that they would be injured or killed, would not
do the same in ground combat, even if the odds were
lower that they would be hurt. Something about being
able to influence your fate, if only slightly to the
better, and the sense of control that pilots have,
whether real or not, is a very large factor. 
As for the pilots being unreliable, well, that's what
the computer is for. If they try to sneak off in the
middle of the fight, their system locks itself down,
and returns the fighter to the carrier, or back to the
fight if it's capable of it.

Just my thoughts, 

John
jwdh71@yahoo.com



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] System Gen Help
Message-ID: <20020802001136.17476.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>

Help!

I am doing an extended system generation.  I rolled
for #6 to be the max orbit.  I also rolled for 2
captured planets.  One is in orbit 6.3 and the other
is in 6.0

Orbit 6 and 5 are both SGG's.  4 is the mainworld and
the habitable zone.

Is this legitimate?  Or do I need to move the captured
planet in orbit 6.0 to somewhere else.

Thanks.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
Message-ID: <131.11a94592.2a7b1a91@cs.com>

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In a message dated 8/1/02 3:04:45 PM Central Daylight Time, 
jgreenly@hsc.wvu.edu writes:


> Would a world that has 80% of its surface covered by water, a dense
> nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, and one moon that is large enough to exert a
> tidal effect tend to be more or less climatically active? Assume
> moderate (terran-normal) vulcanism and a fairly non-polluting early TL
> aqua/agricultural society. Also assume standard polar ice caps and
> rotation around 20 deg. off the plane of the ecliptic. I'll welcome any
> and all comments...
> 
> Jeff
> 

Since you've just pretty much described Earth (other than the dense 
atmosphere and the nonpolluting civilization) I'd say that, yes, it would be 
fairly climatically active. Indeed, the dense atmosphere would make for some 
hellacious storms (it might take a bit to get going, but it would take even 
longer to peter out.)

Doug Grimes

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 8/1/02 3:04:45 PM Central Daylight Time, jgreenly@hsc.wvu.edu writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Would a world that has 80% of its surface covered by water, a dense
<BR>nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, and one moon that is large enough to exert a
<BR>tidal effect tend to be more or less climatically active? Assume
<BR>moderate (terran-normal) vulcanism and a fairly non-polluting early TL
<BR>aqua/agricultural society. Also assume standard polar ice caps and
<BR>rotation around 20 deg. off the plane of the ecliptic. I'll welcome any
<BR>and all comments...
<BR>
<BR>Jeff
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>Since you've just pretty much described Earth (other than the dense atmosphere and the nonpolluting civilization) I'd say that, yes, it would be fairly climatically active. Indeed, the dense atmosphere would make for some hellacious storms (it might take a bit to get going, but it would take even longer to peter out.)
<BR>
<BR>Doug Grimes</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Law (Not at all Re: Patton)
Message-ID: <17f.bfe948b.2a7b2c91@aol.com>

John T. Kwon (aka "I am Weasel!") writes:

>There have been references to Imperial rules concerning 
>warfare - are there really any in canon?  No use of nukes by 
>non-Imperial forces?  Meson guns?  No genocide?  Eh?

The nuke prohibition is the main one stated, with the "massive ecological 
damage" and genocide statements sort of implied.

>The line from Apocalypse Now always made sense to me: 
>arresting someone for violating the rules of war is like 
>handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500.

Ah, but the arresting force in this case is a "High Prejudice" call from the 
Imperial Marines and Navy.  The poor sap who fired the nuke may or may not be 
arrested, but the entire chain of command that put that nuke in his hands, up 
to and including the local imperial noble if he is culpable, is either going 
to be dead due to "resisting arrest" (ie. firing at the landing Marines) or 
brought before the first applicable Imperial Noble in the feudal 
line-of-command...

The Imperium rules the "space between the planets", and the planets *like* it 
that way. Anyone who draws the Imperial Attention down to the surface of the 
planet has, by definition, done a Bad Thing.
("Surface" in this case does not normally include the starport, which is 
legally part of the "space" ruled by the Imperium.)

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEKMCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>
>
>When the Imperium deals with outsiders, all bets are...potentially...off.
However, the nobles of the
>Imperium are loath to abandon their own rules even then, and generally
won't unless the

[deletion]

>What these unwritten rules are is up to you, but personally, I use
>17th and 18th European rules concerning ransoms, hostages, pledges,
>prisoner exchanges, not attacking non-combatants, fighting away from
>civilian areas. and so on. Civilizated states abide by them,
>barbarians don't.

To paraphrase the narrator of Dr. Zhivago, "while the Europeans saw the
Great War as a struggle among the nations of Europe, we [Communists] saw it
as a struggle among Europe's upper classes."  To the extent that the ruling
classes of various interstellar entities recognize commonalities with one
another as rulers that may meet or exceed commonalities of culture with
their own servant classes, they will likely afford one another the
courtesies of conflict among the ruling class.

For example, Imperial nobles in the Spinward Marches are primarily of
Solomani ancestry (at least in my Traveller universe), as are the nobles of
the Sword Worlds.  I would expect them to follow certain conventions that
neither would follow in dealing with Vargr rabble.  The Zhodani, too, have a
set of noble traditions and a defined ruling class.  That might lead to some
amount of gentility in the Frontier Wars.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:55:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:55:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Acceptable losses
References: <20020731151827.2338.75109.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00a501c239bf$a4928e00$ac5d8690@computer>

I've been busy for a couple of days, so I'm replying to an old message:

> Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 11:00:17 -0400
> From: "John T. Kwon"
> There were even cavalrymen at High Wood who rode horses into
> a line of German machineguns who had not been shelled in
> advance.  Sheer butchery - and the only reason they were
> employed there was to demonstrate that there was still a need
> for cavalry.  The Germans in that instance lost zero men.
> The cavalry unit was reduced to a few men in a few minutes.

What's sad about this is that cavalry (mounted infantry) was still a
war-winning force at this time. Check out the Eastern Front and Palestine.
(And the Boer War and Russian Civil War, come to think of it.)

Cavalry was still useful, and widely used in WWII. It only died in droves
when it was misused by the kind of cretins that would run them into
machineguns.

(Of course, mounted charges sometimes worked spectacularly well, too. The
Australian Light Horse did some wonderful things in Palestine in WWI.)

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Parole Given...
Message-ID: <189.bb4aecb.2a7b32ae@aol.com>

Robert Uhl writes:

>
>How did it work historically?  What forms of parole were granted?
>

Depends on who was giving, and who was accepting. The one historical case I'm 
aware of involved an ancestor of mine during the Civil War.  A Southerner, he 
was part of a unit raised in his home state for the purpose of penetrating 
into Northern territory and breaking supply lines by sabotaging train tracks 
and the like. That unit was caught and defeated in detail, as the story goes, 
and a fairly large number of men were taken prisoner, including my ancestor.  
Apparently, the Northern unit was far from its own base, and could ill afford 
to deal with a large number of prisoners. So they sent them home. The family 
history relates that my ancestor was given back his gun and told to "go home, 
the war is over for you."  He did, because he knew they were correct.

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:57:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:57:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <20020801182132.8dc5803e76f94f1f98d7b72b3352174c.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <000001c239bf$a48101d0$6501a8c0@Darla>

Buffaloes did fight Zeroes at Midway.  VMF-221 on Midway was equipped
with 19 F2A-3's, of which 16 were lost on June 4.  

A big problem for the Buffalo was the weight gain due to, among other
things, the addition of armor and self-sealing tanks.  The F2A-1 weighed
3875lb empty, but the F2A-3 had grown to 4732lb empty.  Even with a more
powerful engine, initial climb was reduced to 2290 ft/min vice 3060
ft/min.

The Finnish Air Force did very will (477 kills!) with the 44 F2A-1's
that were delivered to them, but they were flying the lightweight
version of the Buffalo against poorly trained Russian pilots for the
most part.

Tom Barnes

Source: Wagner, American Combat Planes, pp.379-381


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 19:23:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Aug  1 18:23:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Baboon Class Missile Frigate
Message-ID: <00ba01c239c3$a1ad72a0$ac5d8690@computer>

Ship: Baboon
Class: Baboon
Type: Missile Frigate
Architect: Alan Bradley
Tech Level: 15

USP
         FM-A146892-000000-00009-0 MCr 809.580 1 KTons
Bat Bear                       1   Crew: 20
Bat                            1   TL: 15

Cargo: 81.000 Fuel: 480.000 EP: 80.000 Agility: 6 Shipboard Security Detail:
1
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 8.096   Cost in Quantity: MCr 647.664

Designed with Andrew Moffat-Vallance's wonderful High Guard Shipyard.
------------------------------------------

The Baboon Class Missile Frigate is a lightly equipped patrol/escort
vehicle.

In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships.

------------------------------------------

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 19:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Aug  1 18:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonabo Class Missile Frigate
Message-ID: <00d401c239c5$866e20a0$ac5d8690@computer>

Ship: Bonabo
Class: Bonabo
Type: Missile Frigate
Architect: Alan Bradley
Tech Level: 15

USP
         FM-A156892-000000-00009-0 MCr 1,196.140 1.5 KTons
Bat Bear                       1   Crew: 24
Bat                            1   TL: 15

Cargo: 2.000 Fuel: 870.000 EP: 120.000 Agility: 6 Shipboard Security Detail:
2
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 11.961   Cost in Quantity: MCr 956.912

Designed with Andrew Moffat-Vallance's wonderful High Guard Shipyard.
------------------------------------------

 A development of the Baboon Class Missile Frigate, the Bonabo is a lightly
equipped patrol/escort
vehicle, capable of Jump 5.

In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships.

 ------------------------------------------

 Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 19:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug  1 18:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
Message-ID: <20020802015140.32494.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>

Help again.

I'm working with World Tamer's Handbook from TNE and I
need to figure the Orbital Period and Rotation Period
for a couple satellites around a Gas Giant.  Problem
is, I don't know where to get the mass for these
beasts in Standard Masses?

Any clues?

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 20:08:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 19:08:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
In-Reply-To: <sd495bcc.012@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801185752.34d73740@pop.mindspring.com>

At 04:03 PM 8/1/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>Would a world that has 80% of its surface covered by water, a dense
>nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, and one moon that is large enough to exert a
>tidal effect tend to be more or less climatically active? Assume
>moderate (terran-normal) vulcanism and a fairly non-polluting early TL
>aqua/agricultural society. Also assume standard polar ice caps and
>rotation around 20 deg. off the plane of the ecliptic. I'll welcome any
>and all comments...

Need a few more data points:  What is the average temperture?  How long is
the day?
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 20:08:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 19:08:47 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
In-Reply-To: <B96ECAA0.67370%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200208011810.LVR04270@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801190225.470fd9fe@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:23 AM 8/1/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>on 8/1/02 11:10 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

>> I bet that fighting hole full of cold rainwater I stepped
>> into near LZ Aardvark was put there by Doug.  Thanks, Doug.

Only the best for my friends!  And he, I walked into my fair share of those.

>The wonderful bond of shared experience (misery).  We can all sit down
>together, drink beer, and share tales of the fine accommodations of Harmony
>Church, the facilities at AO Eagle, the pleasures of Columbus Georgia.
>Differentiated only by the uniform we wore, or the color of our boots and
>whether we took the SQT or the POIQT.

I went through Sand Hill, where the drills left mints on our pillows, but
much the same thing.. ah, the nights I spent on Victory Drive.. (we called
it VD Drive for obvious reasons.)
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Embrace Fascism.    The uniforms look cool


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 20:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Thu Aug  1 19:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Baboon Class Missile Frigate
Message-ID: <200208020215.g722FLw20931@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com>
>Subject: [TML] Baboon Class Missile Frigate
...
>         FM-A146892-000000-00009-0 MCr 809.580 1 KTons
>Bat Bear                       1   Crew: 20
>Bat                            1   TL: 15
>
>Cargo: 81.000 Fuel: 480.000 EP: 80.000 Agility: 6 Shipboard Security Detail: 1
>Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
...
>The Baboon Class Missile Frigate is a lightly equipped patrol/escort vehicle.
>
>In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships.

  <QUIBBLE> Not really? By TL E or F dampers make these ships just
too inefficient, IIRC?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 20:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 19:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
Message-ID: <d3.f702ca6.2a7b4ae9@aol.com>

 >including not commenting on how a
 >Washington police officer can be hired with felony convictions on his/her
 >record, provided that none were more recent than ten years ago at the time
 >of application.

Well, to be fair, if they didn't follow this hiring policy then could they 
find anyone to hire?

 >Nor will I criticize the voters of that city for being stupid enough to
 >re-elect as mayor a convicted drug dealer, and then expect the tone of the
 >city to be anything other than what it is.

Oh, but they're not stupid.  They knew what the tone of the city would be.  
That's why they voted for him.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 20:43:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Thu Aug  1 19:43:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <200208011145.LVF00804@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEGKEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

Flykiller says
>Yeah, I've seen 'em.  True story:  two female reservists on
>the gallery deck, looking lost and bored and a little
>nervous.  One of 'em suddenly brightens, turns to the other
>and says, "Let's go to the ship's mall!"  The other lights
>up with happiness and they head for the ladder down to the
>store.  It was almost more than I could take.
>

 Sounds like fairly typical 1980's era Navy reservists to me. Report aboard
for two weeks and spend most of your time at the exchange and commissary
soaking up those good Navy benefits. (Most of them could actually afford the
reduced price expensive junk in the exchange that most active duty sailors
couldn't. You know like imported German nick nacks and giant globes with
bars inside. And expensive stereos and electronics. Most lower level
enlisted members have long ago found Wal-Mart and Kmart vastly undersells
the Exchange.)

I never got a decent days work from a reservist, until the Gulf War when
they were called up for six months and found that the contract they sign
actually meant they had leave their cushy high paying job and really be a
sailor. Then most of them straitened out. A few still tried to duck their
duty. I found that this had nothing to do with their gender.

In the active service I've know many fine female sailors who were competent
technicians and fine seaman. And more than a few who were more competent
leaders than many of the critics who bemoaned the posting of woman to ships.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 20:46:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Thu Aug  1 19:46:07 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <3D49DF3B.FDFEAFD6@ameritech.net>

> From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
> Date: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 11:41 pm
>

<snip>

> For JTAS subscribers, the recently-completed starship design 
> contest (Contest #10) had some excellent hospital ships, albeit 
> mostly using design sequences other than HG2.  Note, though, that 
> the winning design (not mine, sad to say) was built using HG2.

That design would have been mine. And IMHO it wasn't the best design in
that contest. I won, I believe, because of my shameless misappropriation
of 20th century american pop culture icons. (I must have been channeling
Dave Nilsen)

All of which reminds me that I have to firm up the details for the next
design contest.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 21:16:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 20:16:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller HIDING
Message-ID: <124.1460d565.2a7b535d@aol.com>

 >>Could be.  Let's find out.  Show me.  Can you handle it?
 >
 >It amuses me far more to watch you beg.

Yes, basking in verbally-asserted superiority is indeed much more pleasant 
than risking actual defeat.  But of course indulging in this makes you a 
coward.

"Sun Tzu said, 'The King likes only empty words.  He is not capable of 
putting them into practice.' "


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 21:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Thu Aug  1 20:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <99.2a2d475a.2a779a93@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4A0109.D48E52E6@pobox.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> >Also, does a crippled fighter neccessarily mean dead crewman?
>
> using ct tables, a factor 9 salvo against a 90 ton fighter results in 9
> critical hits, of which a roll of 2 or 10 ( 1/36 + 3/36 ) represent immediate
> crew death (we'll ignore the presence or absence of rescue vessels, the
> consequences to a pilot of loss of power in his ship, etc).  this results in
> a ( 1 - ( 32 / 36 ) ^ 9 ) or a 65.4% chance of crew death upon being hit.  I
> don't know what typical fighter-pilot survival rates are, but I'll bet that's
> comparable to those of japanese zero's in ww2.

MJ Dougherty wrote: (in a separate message)

> ... surviving to carry out your
> mission is necessary. Surviving to do it again is good. But surviving to go
> home and collect the medals is what every sailor wants. And he wants to KNOW
> that measures have been taken to ensure he will. In almost all situations,
> force survivability is necessary to morale.

The pilot casualty rates you quote above are much too high, IMHO.  They are only
true if the attacker is using TL15 100-ton meson gun bays or if the fighter is
unarmored.
Fighters IMTU carry maximum armor.  This would reduce the non-meson crits listed
above from 9 to 2, with a corresponding increase in crew survival.  Meson hits
would still be Very Bad, but you can design an attack boat of less than 200 tons
that a TL15 capital ship has to roll a 10 on 2d6 to hit.  So, approximately, for
every 6 100-ton meson bays, you get one mission-kill per turn, but the crew
mostly survives.  Not bad odds.  BTW, you get another kill per turn for every two
spinal mounts.  These kills are probably not survivable.

I agree that a sub-100dT fighter cannot carry a weapon which can hurt a TL15
capital ship, mostly because of the difference in computer size.  This is why the
"fighters" in the smoke test were actually 1000dT boats with factor-9 missile
bays.

200-ton attack boats and 1kton missile boats are good if the target has armor
factor 13 or less.  You have to go to a 2kton boat to kill vessels (regardless of
size) which have armor greater than 13. All of these vessels are very survivable.

I'll post a couple of designs.

WKH









From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 22:08:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 21:08:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
In-Reply-To: <d3.f702ca6.2a7b4ae9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B96F53B0.67526%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 7:39 PM, Flykiller@aol.com at Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>> including not commenting on how a
>> Washington police officer can be hired with felony convictions on his/her
>> record, provided that none were more recent than ten years ago at the time
>> of application.
> 
> Well, to be fair, if they didn't follow this hiring policy then could they
> find anyone to hire?

But they couldn't carry a gun.  They'd be a prohibited person under Federal
law, unless they had filed for and received a 'relief from disability' from
the ATF.  And congress has stopped funding this program, so none are being
done.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 22:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Thu Aug  1 21:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <200208020409.g7249Rw09382@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Flykiller@aol.com
>Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 20:25:44 EDT
>Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller 
...
>>  I'm curious as to your evidence for capital ships being unviable,
>>at least at TL's C & D. Assuming that armour is substantial, then
>>larger warships can achieve real utility from mounting repulsors
>>(rules lawyering aside), and their PAWS allow them to handle said
>>frigates (unless Armour J Munchkin-mobiles) the way that some are
>>suggesting fighters would never be allowed to be used.

  As an aside, why are you not discussing the frigates that you 
had posited as the sole class of warship in the post to which I
was responding?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 22:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Thu Aug  1 21:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] max hull size
Message-ID: <200208020411.g724Baw09689@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller 
...
>Again, I'm assuming CT.  Let's see .... at tech 12, max hull size is 199,999 

  <1 MT (USP X) per HG2, pps. 26 & 28.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 22:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 21:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Warships
Message-ID: <36.2b621a09.2a7b633b@aol.com>

>USP
>         BK-H9059J3-L59005-55545-0 MCr 5,624.770 8 KTons
>Bat Bear             1   1 15118   Crew: 110
>Bat                  1   1 15118   TL: 15
>
>Cargo: 170 Fuel: 720.000 EP: 720 Agility: 5 Shipboard Security Detail: 8 

Thanks.  I really do appreciate it.  If I may, I'd like to ask some questions 
(assuming CT and tech 15 in the defender).

1)  If you have armor M, then why do you have a repulsor bay and sand casters?
2)  This vessel could be agility 0 and still be completely immune to all but 
spinal meson gun fire.  Meson screen 3 would be sufficient to completely stop 
any non-spinal-mount meson guns. Since you make it agility 5 and not just 1 
or 2, and give it meson screen 9 (spending all that money on power plant), 
you must expect it to encounter spinal-sized meson gun fire.  It cannot 
survive against such fire, nor can it retaliate.  CT makes no provision for 
the identification of the location of targets that are not out in the open, 
and I assume that big meson guns will be buried, so what rule do you use that 
allows it to shoot back?  the vessel here cannot penetrate meson screen 1 
anyway, so I assume that if there are any large defended meson guns on this 
planet you will be assigning other ships to try and kill them first.  If the 
other ships are that good, then why exactly do you need this one?  And if it 
only deals with mop-up, why give it agility 5 and meson screen 9?
3)  The vessel obviously relies on fuel shuttles (is the parent craft 
streamlined?), which will either be obtaining fuel from the planet oceans or 
from gas giants that are usually, what, a week away.  If the enemy has any 
hidden SDB's nearby you'll have to detail escorts for each shuttle, and 
you'll have to be almost 100% certain that such escorts will be able to drive 
off these SDB's or any raiders that show up.  The parent craft will also 
require guarding, which will require more escorts.  It seems to me that it 
would be more efficient to just pack all these escorts, carriers, and riders 
into a few tougher vessels.

It seems to me that this is a fairly large investment in material that is 
useful only after the enemy fleet is no longer a threat.  If your fleet is 
there guarding it then there's no reason to build it, and if your fleet is 
not there then you must have zero expectation of any significant enemy fleet 
elements showing up.

This individual vessel is tough and cheap, but I don't see the context that 
will make it appropriate.  Could you elaborate on the context?  Thanks.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 22:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Thu Aug  1 21:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat
References: <00ba01c239c3$a1ad72a0$ac5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <3D4A0BEB.49706A1F@pobox.com>

Ship: Pebble
Class: Pebble
Type: Attack Boat
Architect: WKH
Tech Level: 15

USP
         BA-1806E81-G00000-05000-0 MCr 250.607 185 Tons
Bat Bear                    1      Crew: 2
Bat                         1      TL: 15

Cargo: 0.350 Frozen Watch Emergency Low: 1 Fuel: 25.900 EP: 25.900 Agility: 6

Architects Fee: MCr 2.506   Cost in Quantity: MCr 200.485

Detailed Description

COMMENTS
The Pebble was designed to be hard to hit and hard to kill.  It combines a
planetoid hull (AF18) with a model 8 computer and yet retains an agility rating
of
6.  It packs a powerful short-range offensive punch by utilizing the most
advanced fusion gun technology available.

In case of crew casualty, a backup pilot/gunner can be carried as a frozen
watch.  An emergency low berth can accomodate the entire crew if the boat is
disabled.

Pebbles are often found operating in conjunction with Baboon class missile
frigates.

In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships which have an armor
factor of 13 or less.

HULL
185.000 tons standard, 2,590.000 cubic meters, Planetoid Configuration

CREW
Pilot, Gunner

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 6G Manuever, Power plant-14, 25.900 EP, Agility 6

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/8 Computer

HARDPOINTS
1 Hardpoint

ARMARMENT
1 Dual Fusion Gun Turret in 1 Battery (Factor-5)

DEFENCES
Armoured Hull (Factor-16)

CRAFT
None

FUEL
25.900 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
No Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
1.0 Stateroom, 1 Low Berth, 1 Emergency Low Berth, 0.350 Ton Cargo

COST
MCr 253.113 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 2.506), MCr 200.485 in Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
55 Weeks Singly, 44 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
The Pebble was designed to be hard to hit and hard to kill.  It combines a
planetoid hull (AF18) with a model 8 computer and yet retains an agility rating
of
6.  It packs a powerful short-range offensive punch by utilizing the most
advanced fusion gun technology available.

In case of crew casualty, a backup pilot/gunner can be carried as a frozen
watch.  An emergency low berth can accomodate the entire crew if the boat is
disabled.

Pebbles are often found operating in conjunction with Baboon class missile
frigates.

In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships which have an armor
factor of 13 or less.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 22:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Aug  1 21:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption (was: warship optimization)
Message-ID: <F176AUfKRfcjcMzfoV100024006@hotmail.com>

From: Bill Hopper <whopper@pobox.com>

     "I agree that a sub-100dT fighter cannot carry a weapon which can hurt 
a TL15 capital ship, mostly because of the difference in computer size.  
This is why the "fighters" in the smoke test were actually 1000dT boats with 
factor-9 missile bays."


Mr. Hopper,

     The fighter designs used in the smoke tests I was referring to were 
sub-100Ton types.  They were also run at TL12.  Here are the USPs:

FM-0306G51-000000-00002-1 MCr 138.525 50 tons
Batt bear 1 Crew; 1
Batt 1 TL: 12
Cargo: 1.000 Fuel: 8.000 EP: 1.000 Agility: 6

          and

FG-0306G51-000000-04000-0 MCr 138.275 50 tons
Batt Bear 1 Crew: 1
Batt 1 TL: 12
Cargo: 0.00 Fuel; 0.00 EP: 0.00 Agility: 2

     Please note, these designs were pretty much bare bones exercises, i.e. 
cram the weapons and computer aboard, hang the rest.  They could have easily 
been armored, up powered, and run to 99 dTons.  The FG especially could use 
a higher agility.

     "200-ton attack boats and 1kton missile boats are good if the target 
has armor factor 13 or less.  You have to go to a 2kton boat to kill vessels 
(regardless of size) which have armor greater than 13. All of these vessels 
are very survivable."

     Oh yes, I very much agree with you there, especially in the upper TL 
reaches.  Battleriders work, as long as you can protect the tender!

     "I'll post a couple of designs."

     Please do, then perhaps Mr. Flykiller could run them against his 
Spinward Marches Colonial (sic) Fleet.  Without those goofy crew skills 
level house rules too?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 22:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 21:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <m3ofclg93m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net> writes:
>
> > Sure, not now: a video game, even a military simulator, is simply
> > not possible of fully-simulating flight, combat &c.  But thousands
> > of years in the future that's not an issue.  If you can damp
> > inertia and fake gravity, you can fake the motions and sensations
> > of combat.  If you can broadcast in 3D, you can generate a
> > photo-realistic world outside the phony cockpit windows.  The only
> > thing you _cannot_ simulate is the fear of death--and real
> > military training cannot AFAIK do that either; only actual flight
> > time can do that.
> 
> "I'm sorry, but it appears that Cadet Uhl was killed by the
> simulator.  In the simulation, he accelerated his fighter to very
> high speed, then crashed it into the drives of an enemy battleship.
> The simulation ran its gravitics to simulate the crash and increased
> the temperature to simulate the fire when his L-Hyd tanks exploded.
> The combination of being crushed and burned caused injuries that we
> were unable treat effectively.  Next!"

You really think that a computer can be powerful enough to simulate
all that and yet not have safeguards to prevent death?  I would
imagine that it'd be just like a modern simulator: screw up and you
get the `shatter screen.'

Although it could also be used to give you a nasty shock or something
every time you screw up...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Mit den Frauen ist das wie mit den Firewalls: was [...] am meisten
Sicherheit garantiert und am wenigsten Probleme macht, ist immer das,
was zum speziellen Fall am besten passt.
                        --Urs Traenkner in de.comp.security.firewall

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 22:52:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 21:52:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat
In-Reply-To: <3D4A0BEB.49706A1F@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEKPIJAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Ship: Pebble
Class: Pebble
Type: Attack Boat
Architect: WKH
Tech Level: 15

USP
         BA-1806E81-G00000-05000-0 MCr 250.607 185 Tons
Bat Bear                    1      Crew: 2
Bat                         1      TL: 15

Cargo: 0.350 Frozen Watch Emergency Low: 1 Fuel: 25.900 EP: 25.900 Agility:
6

Architects Fee: MCr 2.506   Cost in Quantity: MCr 200.485

Detailed Description

COMMENTS
The Pebble was designed to be hard to hit and hard to kill.  It combines a
planetoid hull (AF18) with a model 8 computer and yet retains an agility
rating
of
6.  It packs a powerful short-range offensive punch by utilizing the most
advanced fusion gun technology available.

In case of crew casualty, a backup pilot/gunner can be carried as a frozen
watch.  An emergency low berth can accomodate the entire crew if the boat is
disabled.

Pebbles are often found operating in conjunction with Baboon class missile
frigates.

In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships which have an armor
factor of 13 or less.

HULL
185.000 tons standard, 2,590.000 cubic meters, Planetoid Configuration

CREW
Pilot, Gunner

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 6G Manuever, Power plant-14, 25.900 EP, Agility 6

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/8 Computer

HARDPOINTS
1 Hardpoint

ARMARMENT
1 Dual Fusion Gun Turret in 1 Battery (Factor-5)

DEFENCES
Armoured Hull (Factor-16)

CRAFT
None

FUEL
25.900 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
No Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
1.0 Stateroom, 1 Low Berth, 1 Emergency Low Berth, 0.350 Ton Cargo

COST
MCr 253.113 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 2.506), MCr 200.485 in
Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
55 Weeks Singly, 44 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
The Pebble was designed to be hard to hit and hard to kill.  It combines a
planetoid hull (AF18) with a model 8 computer and yet retains an agility
rating
of
6.  It packs a powerful short-range offensive punch by utilizing the most
advanced fusion gun technology available.

In case of crew casualty, a backup pilot/gunner can be carried as a frozen
watch.  An emergency low berth can accomodate the entire crew if the boat is
disabled.

Pebbles are often found operating in conjunction with Baboon class missile
frigates.

In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships which have an armor
factor of 13 or less.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Heh

Great minds and all that.  I sent this out for the Rodeo on
June 20.

jml


Permission granted to post as part of the TML Rodeo

Lest I forget, these ships were made using Mr.
Moffatt-Vallance's excellent High Guard Shipyard.

The Brilliant Pebble is one of the current Provincial
fleet elements protecting Glisten.  built out of slag
the tunneling that constantly is generated by the tunneling
that shapes the belt cities.

With 6 g acceleration, a 100 ton Particle Accelerator bay,
and very powerful computers the Pebble is a danger even to
capital ships, while it's armored rocky hull, back up computers,
marine contingent, and frozen watch render it a tenacious
scrapper

Ship: Glisten RX11-113
Class: Brilliant Pebble
Type: Monitor
Architect: jml
Tech Level: 15

USP
         PP-A8068J2-B00400-00906-0 MCr 1,134.444 1.6 KTons
Bat Bear                     1 1   Crew: 57
Bat                          1 1   TL: 15

Cargo: 44.000 Frozen Watch (x2) Fuel: 256.000 EP: 128.000 Agility: 1 Ships
Troops: 2 Marines: 25
Craft: 1 x 40T Pinnace
Backups: 1 x Model/8fib Computer 1 x Bridge

Architects Fee: MCr 11.344   Cost in Quantity: MCr 907.555


Detailed Description

TONNAGE
1,600.000 tons standard, 22,400.000 cubic meters, Planetoid Configeration

CREW
11 Officers, 21 Ratings, 25 Marines

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 6G Manuever, Power plant-8, 128.000 EP, Agility 1

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/9fib Computer
1 Backup Bridge, 1 Model/8fib Backup Computer

HARDPOINTS
1 100-ton bay, 6 Hardpoints

ARMARMENT
1 100-ton Particle Accelerator Bay (Factor-9), 6 Triple Missile Turrets in 1
Battery (Factor-6)

DEFENCES
Nuclear Damper (Factor-4), Armoured Hull (Factor-8)

CRAFT
1 40.000 ton Pinnace (Crew of 2)

FUEL
32.000 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 60 days endurance)
No Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
32.0 Staterooms, 60 Low Berths, 44.000 Tons Cargo

COST
MCr 1,145.788 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 11.344), MCr 907.555 in
Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
128 Weeks Singly, 103 Weeks in Quantity


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 22:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Aug  1 21:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Civility (was Re: warship HIDING)
Message-ID: <F60mzsZCnT9An4eVh2V00024324@hotmail.com>

From: Flykiller@aol.com

     "Yes, basking in verbally-asserted superiority is indeed much more 
pleasant than risking actual defeat.  But of course indulging in this makes 
you a (description deleted by LEW)"


Sir,

     This post was completely uncalled for, in very poor taste, and little 
more than flame bait.  Posting such a message was definitely beneath you.  I 
cannot believe you would normally behave in such a manner.  Passions may be 
running high on both sides of this discussion, but that doesn't mean we need 
to lower ourselves and make personal attacks.
     All of us on the List have been guilty of such behavior in the past, 
myself especially, but we all also try to conduct ourselves in as civil a 
manner as possible.  Because we're human, sometimes we fail.  However, we 
all still try.
     Your opinions and views have kicked off quite an interesting thread 
here on the List.  I have found your responses to other threads interesting 
also.  However, posting a message such as the one in question will do little 
more than earn you a place in many members' kill files.  Your posts, 
observations, and opinions deserve a better fate than that.
     I look forward to your future posts on a variety of threads and feel 
certain that you will conduct yourself in a truly civil manner.


     Sincerely,
     William R. Cameron, aka Larsen E. Whipsnade

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 23:36:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Thu Aug  1 22:36:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
In-Reply-To: <3D4A0109.D48E52E6@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEMJELAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Why would a warship allocate a factor 9 missile salvo, which as I understand
represents a lot of missiles against a single fighter? I know the HG rules
do the combat this way but it makes little sense. On the bridge, "commander
launch fifty missiles at that fighter..."


If people want fighters to be more effective in a high tech environment just
reduce the effectiveness of the point defence systems.

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 00:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 23:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] juries
Message-ID: <1a8.614142f.2a7b7b13@aol.com>

 >Maybe the concept of men, not so much laws, is not a bad 
 >one.  Sure, we could say that on Regina, there's no specific 
 >law against writing your ledgers that way.  On the other 
 >hand, if news gets out, and there's enough related heat (such 
 >as massive corporate collapse), the Duke of Regina will be 
 >sending you a personal invitation to the prison hulk.

What if he doesn't wait until there's enough "related heat"?  What if he 
doesn't wait for any heat at all?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 00:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 23:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <11c.14c7f23e.2a7b7e6b@aol.com>

 >Larsen raises several excellent points. I thought I would chime in,
 >briefly, because I am of the opinion that Mr. Fly simply doesn't get it
 >despite what the true warrior types on the TML have been (very
 >patiently) explaining. TML hasn't been this interesting in a while!
 >
 >One need only to look at the Battle of the Atlantic to see how much of
 >an effect esprit de corps and loyalty go towards men willingly going
 >into grave danger. I may be slightly off on my numbers, but the U-Boat
 >service saw the highest losses of ANY service branch, across all
 >nationalities during WW II. Something like 80% of all U-boatmen were KIA
 >towards the end of the war, with the average life expectancy being a
 >week.

A week?

I posted an adequate answer to that particular example.  No-one responded to 
it at all, patiently or otherwise.  Not that anyone has to, but ....

In reference to the original post that started all this, I don't know what 
else to say, 'cept I'm glad all these true warriors aren't in charge of 
making making major procurement and force deployment decisions.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 00:23:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 23:23:08 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <9f.2b1fbbad.2a7b7f21@aol.com>

 >BTW, I think some of the best Navy chow to be had is at RTC Great
 >Lakes.

What are you talking about?  They put chopped onions in the jello!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 01:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 00:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
Message-ID: <19e.6479ce5.2a7b8a94@aol.com>

 >Would a world that has 80% of its surface covered by water, a dense
 >nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, and one moon that is large enough to exert a
 >tidal effect tend to be more or less climatically active? Assume
 >moderate (terran-normal) vulcanism and a fairly non-polluting early TL
 >aqua/agricultural society. Also assume standard polar ice caps and
 >rotation around 20 deg. off the plane of the ecliptic. I'll welcome any
 >and all comments...

I've often wondered along those lines.  If you look at our system the size 2 
moon is at the very limit (book 6) of its possible orbit, yet when generating 
traveller systems it is quite possible to have much larger moons orbiting 
much closer to their world.  The tides would be huge.  I would imagine there 
would be very few costal cities throughout most systems, because they'd be 
flooded by 50 foot tides.

As I understand it weather is caused mostly by heat transfer across a 
planet's surface.  Since your world has a 20 degree axial tilt then I would 
think its weather would be about comparable to Terra's.  If denser atmosphere 
holds more heat then it should be more active.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 01:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 00:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <151.11ceca62.2a7b936d@aol.com>

 >The Germans, and
 >particularly the Japanese were horribly dehumanized.  We made our enemies
 >into monsters so then it was OK to exterminate them.

Seems to be part of the human condition.  Not only is the enemy an inhuman 
monster and responsible for any and all evil, _we_ are pure as the 
wind-driven snow in any and all circumstances.  "It's Al Qaida's fault we 
bombed a wedding party!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 01:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 00:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <41.21182628.2a7b9569@aol.com>

 >"A mediocre plan executed immediately is better than a briliant plan
 >executed later."

Good post.  I always thought the quote was "A good plan now is better than a 
perfect plan later."  I like it better that way anyway.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 02:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 01:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <de.2af56363.2a7b992a@aol.com>

 >> >HMS Glow-worm ramming the Admiral Hipper comes to mind. The destroyer's
 >>  >mass
 >>  >was literally the only thing that might hurt the cruiser, and if she
 >wasn't
 >>  >hurt then the convoy would be massacred. Her skipper knew his ship would
 >>  >sink; he knew many (but probably not all) of his crew would die. But the
 >>  >decision was made in the face of the enemy, for a clear goal - to save
 >>  >hundreds of helpless merchant seamen. Would the crew have accepted an
 >>  >Admiralty policy of "we're not giving you torpedoes. You're to close and
 >>  >ram, then sink"? In desperate times, some people actually would. But,
 >say,
 >>  >in 1934? Nope.
 > 
 >Not to disagree with    the point of the comment but some details on the
 >loss of HMS Glowworm  was not escorting a convoy at the time of the battle
 >with the Hipper, she had been part of a minelaying sortie off the Norwegian
 >coast she became seperated from her consorts and came across on of the
 >Hipper's escrting destroyers.

Here's the url for the true story.  Nice site.

http://www.hmsglowworm.org.uk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 02:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Pronto)
Date: Fri Aug  2 01:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Civility (was Re: warship HIDING)
In-Reply-To: <F60mzsZCnT9An4eVh2V00024324@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000201c239fc$f5e3bd00$1202a8c0@RodgerYoung>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com 
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Larsen 
> E. Whipsnade
> Sent: August 1, 2002 9:54 PM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] Civility (was Re: warship HIDING)
> 
> 
> 
>      This post was completely uncalled for, in very poor 
> taste, and little 
> more than flame bait.  Posting such a message was definitely 
> beneath you.

<Deleted, you wrote it, you know what was here.  :)   >

>      I look forward to your future posts on a variety of 
> threads and feel 
> certain that you will conduct yourself in a truly civil manner.
> 
> 
>      Sincerely,
>      William R. Cameron, aka Larsen E. Whipsnade
> 

Excellently done!   Bravo!   You are truly a civilized person.

Pronto
AKA Brian Taylor



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 02:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Edward Swatschek)
Date: Fri Aug  2 01:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <200208011817.LVR05093@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208011817.LVR05093@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020802083028.LLOT14925.priv-edtnes04.telusplanet.net@there>

On Thursday 01 August 2002 11:17, John T. Kwon wrote:
>>
> There have been references to Imperial rules concerning
> warfare - are there really any in canon?  No use of nukes by
> non-Imperial forces?  Meson guns?  No genocide?  Eh?

The Rules were established early in CT (Sup11: Library Data N-Z, Striker,  
et al).  

First, they apply to conflict within the Imperium, and aim to maintain it's 
economic & military well-being.

The conflict should be local to a single system, though extra-planetary 
'assistance' is allowed within limits.  

They are unwritten so as to prevent formal precedent from preventing 
Imperial intervention.

"...use or possesion of nuclear weapons, if discovered, will almost 
certainly trigger Imperial intervention.  The Imperium alone retains rights 
to such weapons ... certain other weapons (chemical and bacteriological 
agents, and meson accelerators, for example) are strictly controlled, 
although they are not subject to the sweeping restrictions placed on 
nuclear weapons."



-- 
Edward Swatschek - edjs@bitslayer.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 02:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 01:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <200208012327.LWC00112@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <000201c23a02$bf4aef60$0112bd50@martinjd>

> "MJ Dougherty" says
> >Where will you fight these engagements? How will you make
> >sure you have the choice of where and when to meet the enemy
> >fleet? What happens if he feints and threatens with the
> >battle fleet in being and floods your systems with
> >commerce raiders to break up your logistics chain?
>
> As I believe was mentioned before, those little fighters make
> excellent raiders - You could probably build fairly small,
> fairly cheap ones that would, especially in numbers, lay
> waste to the typical merchant ships.  The ship that carried
> them might not be very large, and could remain far outsystem.
>
> Let me think about this for a while...

Raider-carriers are an excellent idea. I wonder if escort carriers could
counter them. Or if they could carry enough fighters to scrub a decent light
cruiser before it closed and killed the carrier. Or....




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 02:49:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 01:49:04 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <45.1b1ae706.2a7ba15e@aol.com>

 >> ah yes, military spending.  but have you noticed that money is not at all
 >> the limiting factor in naval construction?  and even if it were, it's not
 >> the factor you make it out to be.  in the united states today, 250 million
 >> citizens contribute $300 billion or so annually in defense spending --
 >> that's $1200 from each man, woman, child, and illegal alien.  trillion
 >> credit squadron states that each imperial citizen contributes an average 
of
 >> 500Cr towards their navy -- I don't think that that is at all 
unreasonable,
 >> especially given that their military is primarily naval.  if anything it's
 >> too low, but it's still enough to allow the spinward marches to pay for
 >> about 2500 200kton battleships.  that's a lot of hardware, enough to put,
 >> what, ten battleships in each and every imperial spinward marches system. 
 >> what significant optimization can be had here?  there's some, but not 
much.
 >
 > hmmm... I must examine this .... after applying exchange rates and 
figuring 
 >the costs of support facilities, supplies and auxiliaries ( not to mention 
 >graft and 400$ hammers)

I'd like to hear what you find.  When I researched the Spinward Marches and 
realized what was really going on it was quite eye-opening.  So many ideas, 
even canon ideas, went out the window.

 >> as an aside, yeah, I suppose so.  but I subscribe completely to gary 
 >> gygax's idea:  "More 'realistic' combat systems could certainly have been
 >> included here, but they have no real part in a game for a group of players
 >> having an exciting adventure."
 >
 >Here is the schwerpunkt.

Isn't that a great word?

 >Do people play traveller as a wargame...or do they 
 >play traveller as a RPG.?

For me it's an RPG, but each one leads to the other.

 >How wonderful that there exists a game that can do 
 >both well.

Completely agree.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 03:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 02:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <m3ofclg93m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <004301c23a04$8cdeff60$0112bd50@martinjd>

> You really think that a computer can be powerful enough to simulate
> all that and yet not have safeguards to prevent death?  I would
> imagine that it'd be just like a modern simulator: screw up and you
> get the `shatter screen.'
>
> Although it could also be used to give you a nasty shock or something
> every time you screw up...

There are simulator drawbacks - "simulator sickness", which is kind of
psychosomatic motion sickness, can begin to manifest itself on real missions
(or cause them to not do certain things because they expect sim sickness).
Pilots sometimes begin to develop habits that optimise their performance in
the simulator rather than in the real environment. And they can develop a
habit of recklessness since they can't die, which is bad if carried over, or
sometimes evaporates in a mist of nerves because suddenly they CAN.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 03:03:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 02:03:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <99.2a2d475a.2a779a93@aol.com> <3D4A0109.D48E52E6@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <005801c23a04$ec770b20$0112bd50@martinjd>

> I agree that a sub-100dT fighter cannot carry a weapon which can hurt a
TL15
> capital ship, mostly because of the difference in computer size.  This is
why the
> "fighters" in the smoke test were actually 1000dT boats with factor-9
missile
> bays.
>

Huh? 1000 tons is an escort, or a frigate or something. But certainly not a
fighter.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 03:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri Aug  2 02:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
References: <20020802062003.11635.24330.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D4A4D4B.3C4D1955@ameritech.net>

> Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 18:51:40 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com>
>
> Help again.
> 
> I'm working with World Tamer's Handbook from TNE and I
> need to figure the Orbital Period and Rotation Period
> for a couple satellites around a Gas Giant.  Problem
> is, I don't know where to get the mass for these
> beasts in Standard Masses?
> 
> Any clues?

I couldn't find that info in any TNE source. There are charts for that
in "World Builder's Handbook" for MT. Assuming for the moment that you
don't have access to that very worthwhile publication I can give you
some typical figures from that source.

Smallest SGG radius = 20
Average SGG radius ~= 60
Highest SGG radius = 100

Smallest LGG radius = 110
Average LGG radius ~= 175
Highest LGG radius = 240

Lowest GG density = .1
Average GG density ~= .21
Highest GG density = .3

Send me a private email if you want the full charts. (I just don't have
the energy to type all of it up at the moment)

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 03:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 02:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <151.11ceca6f.2a7ba7cc@aol.com>

 >> Yes, with a huge Japanese fleet threatening their homeland and only them
 >> standing between the yellow peril and their families.  It was not, 
however, a
 >> standard tactic, employed "because they'll tolerate it".
 > 
 >Read Miracle at Midway a few years back. IIRC the torpedo planes were the 
ones EXPECTED to take out
 >the jap ships. But communication, navigation and planning errors resulted 
in the attacks being
 >uncoordinated and the TBY's? wound up being slaughtered by the jap CAP and 
the ships. When the dive
 >bombers showed up there were no planes in a position to oppose their attack.

This example doesn't make your point.  They wound up doing what they did 
because they were making the best of a bad situation,  not because it was a 
standard tactic.  Deciding that because they were willing to work it out that 
therefore you can order them to do it this way every time is abusive of their 
profession.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 03:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 02:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <151.11ceca6f.2a7ba7cc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <008b01c23a07$bf413920$0112bd50@martinjd>

>Read Miracle at Midway a few years back. IIRC the torpedo planes were the
> ones EXPECTED to take out
>  >the jap ships. But communication, navigation and planning errors
resulted
> in the attacks being
>  >uncoordinated and the TBY's? wound up being slaughtered by the jap CAP
and
> the ships. When the dive
>  >bombers showed up there were no planes in a position to oppose their
attack.
>
> This example doesn't make your point.  They wound up doing what they did
> because they were making the best of a bad situation,  not because it was
a
> standard tactic.  Deciding that because they were willing to work it out
that
> therefore you can order them to do it this way every time is abusive of
their
> profession.

Yes indeed. These guys did their job and made the attack despite everything
that was going wrong. The US aircrews got hammered - in fact, what killed
the IJN more than anything else was losses in good pilots, resulting
declining capability and more losses from elementary "inexperience" errors.

But anyway, point is that motivated, armed people will do their best nearly
all of the time. Creating policies that slaughter them for no good reason is
stupid, and will rob you of that motivation.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 03:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 02:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <177.c4ef5d8.2a7ba9ee@aol.com>

 >>Sure, not now: a video game, even a military simulator, is simply not
 >>possible of fully-simulating flight, combat &c.  But thousands of
 >>years in the future that's not an issue.  If you can damp inertia and
 >>fake gravity, you can fake the motions and sensations of combat.  If
 >>you can broadcast in 3D, you can generate a photo-realistic world
 >>outside the phony cockpit windows.  The only thing you _cannot_
 >>simulate is the fear of death--and real military training cannot AFAIK
 >>do that either; only actual flight time can do that.
 >
 >"I'm sorry, but it appears that Cadet Uhl was killed by the simulator.  In
 >the simulation, he accelerated his fighter to very high speed, then crashed
 >it into the drives of an enemy battleship.  The simulation ran its gravitics
 >to simulate the crash and increased the temperature to simulate the fire
 >when his L-Hyd tanks exploded.  The combination of being crushed and burned
 >caused injuries that we were unable treat effectively.  Next!"

No depressurization?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 04:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 03:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
In-Reply-To: <20020802062003.11635.24330.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020802062003.11635.24330.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <eimkkukp9lm8iv0tjm0iu5gvjaoi5j6oov@4ax.com>

On Thu, 01 Aug 2002 23:20:03 -0700, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

[quoting me]

> >including not commenting on how a
> >Washington police officer can be hired with felony convictions on his/her
> >record, provided that none were more recent than ten years ago at the time
> >of application.

>Well, to be fair, if they didn't follow this hiring policy then could they 
>find anyone to hire?

Yes.  In NYC, they call such positions 'hard to recruit', and that
automatically invokes paragraph 1127 of the Charter of the City of New York
- which paragraph allows them _not_ to impose or enforce the residency
requirement, and _does_ require that an employee hired under it be assessed
a non-tax payment, computed like the city's income tax, as a 'condition of
employment'.

> >Nor will I criticize the voters of that city for being stupid enough to
> >re-elect as mayor a convicted drug dealer, and then expect the tone of the
> >city to be anything other than what it is.

>Oh, but they're not stupid.  They knew what the tone of the city would be.  
>That's why they voted for him.

I refuse to believe that they _want_ a city that is so badly mismanaged
that Congress was ready to take away what autonomy they had.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 04:22:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 03:22:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Terminal Authors' Diarrhea
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020727101338.482f1ef0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20802.012022.5a5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 01:41 PM 7/27/2002 +0000, you wrote:
>
>>     Larsen, currently slogging through Turtledove's "Blood and Iron"
>
> "The Center Cannot Hold" is already out.  And it is wonderful!  I might Dr,
> Turtledove at BayCon, and suggested that I'd love to see the CSA timeline
> reach 1942.. and suddenly have the Race (from the Worldwar series) show up.
>  He told me he had been torturing his editor with that idea for sometime
> already.

Now you've given me an *evil* idea...

The Race shows up in 1942. And runs into the WWII of S.M. Stirling's
"Marching Through Georgia".

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 04:23:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Aug  2 03:23:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <000201c23a02$bf4aef60$0112bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3D4B05EA.9496.5198B9B@localhost>

On 2 Aug 2002, at 1:14, MJ Dougherty wrote:

> Raider-carriers are an excellent idea. I wonder if escort carriers could
> counter them. Or if they could carry enough fighters to scrub a decent light
> cruiser before it closed and killed the carrier. Or....

Ship: Nairana
Class: Vindex
Type: Escort Carrier
Architect: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
Tech Level: 13

USP
         RE-A731332-040000-44003-1 MCr 791.714 1 KTons
Bat Bear             6     11  2   Crew: 52
Bat                  6     11  2   TL: 13

Cargo: 11.400 Fuel: 330 EP: 30 Agility: 1 Marines: 7
Craft: 8 x 30T Patrol Fighters, 2 x 20T Lifeboats
Fuel Treatment: On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 4.893   Cost in Quantity: MCr 693.851


Detailed Description

HULL
1,000.000 tons standard, 14,000.000 cubic meters, Dispersed Structure 
Configuration

CREW
Pilot, Navigator, 4 Engineers, Medic, 10 Gunners, 18 Flight Crew, 7 
Marines, 10 Additional Crew (User Defined)

ENGINEERING
Jump-3, 1G Manuever, Power plant-3, 30.000 EP, Agility 1

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/3 Computer, Model/2 Flight Avionics, Model/3 Sensors, 
Model/3 Maser Communications

HARDPOINTS
10 Hardpoints

ARMAMENT
2 Triple Missile Turrets organised into 2 Batteries (Factor-3), 1 Triple Beam 
Laser Turret organised into 1 Battery (Factor-4), 1 Dual Fusion Gun Turret 
organised into 1 Battery (Factor-4)

DEFENCES
6 Triple Sandcaster Turrets organised into 6 Batteries (Factor-4)

CRAFT
8 30.000 ton Patrol Fighters (Crew of 2, Cost of MCr 36.920), 2 20.000 ton 
Lifeboats (Crew of 1, Cost of MCr 3.520)

FUEL
330 Tons Fuel (3 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
No Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
26 Staterooms, 1 Engineering Shop, 1 Vehicle Shop, 20 Tons of Missile 
Magazines (holding 400 missiles), 11.400 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
1 Maintainance Hanger (60.000 tons, Crew 10, Cost MCr 0.600), 4 Brig 
Cells (4.000 tons, Crew 0, Cost MCr 0.700)

COST
MCr 494.207 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 4.893), MCr 391.451 in 
Quantity, plus MCr 302.400 of Carried Craft (Hardpoints and Turrets 
charged)

CONSTRUCTION TIME
120 Weeks Singly, 96 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
The humble escort carrier is an often overlooked member of the Imperial 
Navy, but nonetheless it is probably one of the most useful vessels at the 
Emperor's disposal. Its modest costs coupled with the fexibility granted by 
its fighters give it range of options available to virtually no other type of 
vessel.

The escort carrier concept was developed by Cleon Zhunastu (later 
Emperor Cleon I) in the final years of the Sylean Federation. Initially 
intended as an answer to the endemic piracy that afflicted the fringes of the 
Federation, the type rapidly proved to be one of the most versatile in the 
fleet.

The Vindex class is a fairly typical example of the type. Designed during 
the later stages of the Civil War, it first found popularity amongst planetary 
navies and corporate interests seeking to find a cost effective suppliment 
for reduced Imperial Navy patrols. The class has also proved to be 
extremely flexible, often used to provide orbital and air support for minor 
troop deployments.

Ship: Puffin
Class: Puffin
Type: Patrol Fighter
Architect: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
Tech Level: 13

USP
         FP-0604B31-230000-20002-0 MCr 46.150 30 Tons
Bat Bear             1     1   1   Crew: 2
Bat                  1     1   1   TL: 13

Cargo: 0.500 Fuel: 3.300 EP: 3.300 Agility: 4 Pulse Lasers
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops

Architects Fee: MCr 0.462   Cost in Quantity: MCr 36.920


Detailed Description

HULL
30.000 tons standard, 420.000 cubic meters, Airframe Flattened Sphere 
Configuration

CREW
Pilot, Gunner

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 4G Manuever, Power plant-11, 3.300 EP, Agility 4

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/3 Computer, Model/3 Flight Avionics, Model/3 Sensors, 
Model/3 Maser Communications

HARDPOINTS
1 Hardpoint

ARMAMENT
1 Triple Mixed Turret with: 1 Pulse Laser (Factor-2), 1 Missile Rack (Factor-
2).

DEFENCES
1 Sandcaster in the Mixed Turret, organised into 1 Battery (Factor-3), 
Armoured Hull (Factor-2)

CRAFT
None

FUEL
3.300 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
1 Small Craft Stateroom, 2 Acceleration Couches, 1 Ton of Missile 
Magazines (holding 20 missiles), 0.500 Ton Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 46.612 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 0.462), MCr 36.920 in 
Quantity (Hardpoints and Turrets charged)

CONSTRUCTION TIME
16 Weeks Singly, 13 Weeks in Quantity

Ship: Lifeboat
Class: Lifeboat
Type: Lifeboat
Architect: Standard
Tech Level: 13

USP
         QX-0201101-000000-00000-0 MCr 4.400 20 Tons
Bat Bear                           Crew: 1
Bat                                TL: 13

Cargo: 4 Emergency Low: 6 Fuel: 4.200 EP: 0.200 Agility: 1
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops

Architects Fee: MCr 0.044   Cost in Quantity: MCr 3.520


Detailed Description

HULL
20.000 tons standard, 280.000 cubic meters, Cone Configuration

CREW
Pilot

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 1G Manuever, Power plant-1, 0.200 EP, Agility 1

AVIONICS
Bridge, No Computer Installed

HARDPOINTS
None

ARMAMENT
None

DEFENCES
None

CRAFT
None

FUEL
4.200 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance, plus 4.000 tons 
of additional fuel)
On Board Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
2 Acceleration Couches, 2 Low Berths, 6 Emergency Low Berths, 4 Tons 
Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 4.444 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 0.044), MCr 3.520 in 
Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
11 Weeks Singly, 9 Weeks in Quantity


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 04:23:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Aug  2 03:23:53 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <sd494643.049@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
Message-ID: <3D4B05EA.8754.5198B91@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002, at 14:28, Jeff D. Greenly wrote:

> One need only to look at the Battle of the Atlantic to see how much of
> an effect esprit de corps and loyalty go towards men willingly going
> into grave danger. I may be slightly off on my numbers, but the U-Boat
> service saw the highest losses of ANY service branch, across all
> nationalities during WW II. Something like 80% of all U-boatmen were KIA
> towards the end of the war, with the average life expectancy being a
> week. 

True to a point. But there's a very important proviso. The average crew of a 
U-boat was around 40-50 IIRC. This provides a mass of esprit de corps to 
"steady" the crew. The individual members draw strength from each other, 
the presense of your comrades acts as a break on panic and provides a 
strong disincentive to running away. However in a fighter you probably are 
all alone, the nearest friendly is tens of kilometers away and there's 
nobody to see if you stand as a "hero" or run as a "coward".

Personally I don't think the massed fighter approach works over the long 
term due to the cost in highly trained crew. However, I can well see it being 
not that uncommon, especially when one side feels desperate.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 04:24:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Aug  2 03:24:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <F228Wv2vyWb6cxHKx7000010140@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B05EA.18849.5198B91@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002, at 15:57, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      "...although not as bad as the Swordfish(1)."

>      Please excuse me, I forgot to add the footnote.

> (1) - The Swordfishs' very obs0lescence may have actually helped it survive in
> battle.  A most likely apophrycal story from the Bismarck saga has the German
> AA fire missing the attacking Swordfish because the aircraft were moving too
> SLOW, the AA crews led their targets by too much.  Swordfish made their
> torpedo runs at ~90 mph and weather conditions could drop that speed even
> further.
>      The Swordfish may been viwed as a joke by other navies, it still got the
> job done at Taranto and with the Bismarck however.

Don't dis the Swordfish, it was one of the 2nd WW most successful ASW 
aircraft. They served with no less than 26 squadrons, remained in 
production till late 1944 and only retired from active service on 21st May 
1945. :*>

ObTrav: Never, never underestimate the value of a well engineered lower 
tech design. You write off the well proven technology of the previous 
generation at your own peril. The Swordfish outlasted her replacement and 
was better in her role (carrier based ASW) than any other allied aircraft


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 04:28:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Aug  2 03:28:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <99.2a2d475a.2a779a93@aol.com> <3D4A0109.D48E52E6@pobox.com> <005801c23a04$ec770b20$0112bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <006401c23a0f$3ca9da00$7400a8c0@matt>

MJ Dougherty wrote:
>> I agree that a sub-100dT fighter cannot carry a weapon which can
>> hurt a TL15 capital ship, mostly because of the difference in
>> computer size.  This is why the "fighters" in the smoke test were
>> actually 1000dT boats with factor-9 missile bays.
>>
>
> Huh? 1000 tons is an escort, or a frigate or something. But certainly
> not a fighter.

The House rule I use to allow Fighters to be more effective is to let
Squadrons be treated as Batteries. ie, each fighter in the squadron is the
equivalent of a turret in a battery, with corresponding increase in weapon
USP, at the penalty of fewer salvos. This represents the squadron acting in
a co-ordinated way to attack a single target, concentrating their fire on
one spot so as to overwhelm it. The capital ship firing on the attacking
squadron still has to target individual fighters. As fighters are destroyed,
recalculate the effective USP of the squadrons 'battery'

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 04:52:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 03:52:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com>

 >>  >Low-end ships so you can do all your jobs within your budget maybe?
 >>
 >> I understand that, but there's the question of what your enemy is doing.
 >> Consider the extreams -- if your goal is to win engagements then you'll
 want
 >> a few expensive capital ships, but if you want to "do all the jobs" then
 >> you'll want a herd of warm bodies (as it were).  Between the extreams is
 the
 >> balance -- but where is it?  I think it's way over in the "win
 engagements"
 >> side.
 >
 >Engagemnents of what sort? Enough commerce raiders can cripple your economy
 >(Battle of the Atlantic etc) despite your excellent battle fleet. If the
 >engagements you need to win are escort/raider ones, then you need many ships
 >to cover the area, but ones good enough to beat or deter the raiders.

A good point worthy of discussion.  I have commerce raiders, but I envision 
them as travelling in a single mass, outrunning and dodging attempts by 
serious fleet elements to pursue them (unless, of course, the raiders blunder 
into them).  Small patrols and escorts are never going to be able to deal 
with such a herd, while major patrols and escorts deployed everywhere will 
seriously impact the size of the remaining core fleet.  How serious is the 
trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took place because the small island 
of England was not self-sufficient in either agricultural or industrial 
matters, but I don't think this situation will arise on many _planets_.  If 
trade is truly a major issue and lifeline then a massed herd of raiders will 
be crippling regardless of any other fleet elements employed.  But I think 
most planets with populations sufficient to have significant trade 
connections will have huge internal capacites to produce what they need 
anyway, and huge reserves of whatever they have to import (consider our 
Strategic Oil Reserve).  I see raiders as nothing more than annoyance attacks 
-- they can't lay seiges, they can't do major battles, and they can't stay in 
any area too long or some task force will find them and kick their ass -- 
that can't be instantly responded to in an adequate manner.  You can't be 
strong everywhere, and if you try you'll be rolled up.  Further, if your 
opponent takes that tonnage that you devoted to patrols and escorts and uses 
it to build a major fleet element instead, that element will be able to 
stroll through the isolated patrols and escorts like a bull in a china shop, 
wasting the tonnage you devoted to them.

 >> If you "cover all the bases" with warm bodies but have to flee every
 >> time the heavyweight enemy shows up then what good is that?  There is no
 >> substitute for victory, and to get that victory you need the heavyweights
and
 >> you need more of them than your enemy.
 >
 >You need greater concentration of force at the critical point. That can be
 >done with less ships, better handled and supported.

I don't think you can get "greater concentration of force" with "less ships". 
 All other things being equal, if 1/3 of your fleet runs into 2/3 of the 
enemy fleet then you're gonna get smooshed.  Then all your patrols and 
escorts won't matter.

 >That said, victory is not necessarily gained by defeating the enemy battle
 >fleet. If you do that, but he scrubs your industrial worlds with planetary
 >raider ships, or kills your economy with commerce raiders, then you may not
 >have won at all.

True.  But several points.  1)  If all he has left is raiders, then you'll 
march into _his_ territory with some surviving unopposed capital ships while 
sending the rest after the raiders, who will be forced to continuously flee 
with no refuge.  2)  Major industrial worlds will have their own local 
defense forces, and no raider fleet I can imagine will be able to take on an 
AX (population A, tech (game tech level)) world's local defense force, so the 
majority of your population should be safe.  3)  How would you stop this 
anyway?  A large raider force is not expensive to build, but if you try to 
put anti-raider forces sufficient to engage such raiders at every possible 
point they may attack then you won't have much left on your front lines, and 
the enemy will wind up attacking your industrial worlds not with raiders but 
with capital ships.  4)  As for commerce interdiction it will be unpopular 
with the folks, but in my opinion not militarily significant.

 >> If by patrol you mean scouts, then yes.  But if you mean general policing
 >> then I'd think that would be a local police matter and not a fleet matter.
 >
 >I mean patrol ships to defeat piracy, commerce raiding and smuggling,

That's all local.  If a system is really strapped, I'd send some fleet 
escorts to help out.  War is not always imminent, after all.  Too, while the 
Imperium cares about some weapons, why should it care about the smuggling of 
anything else?  "Admiral!  Smugglers are transporting illegal cargos of 
cigarettes to Zivije!"  "Ensign, go there immediately.  Buy me a few packs."

 >to
 >catch enemy intelligence ships and recon vessels

I'd use scouts to watch them, and try to catch them on the way out -- if I 
thought they had relevant information.  What are they going to say?  "There's 
a planet here!"?  "There's some sort of secret facility over here!"?  "There 
were no ships in this system two months ago!"?  But frankly, a traitor 
civilian in a free trader or a seeker would be impossible to detect, and 
would provide just as much information.

 >to prevent the stockpiling of forward supply bases

Scouts would see the incoming traffic, and the fleet would send some elements 
to check it out.

 >to gain intelligence

Scouts again.

 >to show the flag and keep systems in line....

I'd use the regular fleet to do that.  "Join the Navy and see the world!"

It's getting late.  I hope I've said something useful with a minimum of 
"noise".

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 04:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 03:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <99.2a2d475a.2a779a93@aol.com> <3D4A0109.D48E52E6@pobox.com> <005801c23a04$ec770b20$0112bd50@martinjd> <006401c23a0f$3ca9da00$7400a8c0@matt>
Message-ID: <003201c23a14$66243100$7d03bd50@martinjd>

> >>
> >
> > Huh? 1000 tons is an escort, or a frigate or something. But certainly
> > not a fighter.
>
> The House rule I use to allow Fighters to be more effective is to let
> Squadrons be treated as Batteries. ie, each fighter in the squadron is the
> equivalent of a turret in a battery, with corresponding increase in weapon
> USP, at the penalty of fewer salvos.

Why do you want fighters to be more effective?

>This represents the squadron acting in
> a co-ordinated way to attack a single target, concentrating their fire on
> one spot so as to overwhelm it. The capital ship firing on the attacking
> squadron still has to target individual fighters. As fighters are
destroyed,
> recalculate the effective USP of the squadrons 'battery'

I see the concept, though you'd have to simulate C3 breakdowns, loss of
cohesion etc

>
> Matt
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 05:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Fri Aug  2 04:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Blowing holes in Japan (was " Re Patton")
Message-ID: <F6qF77mNl6ahF9JckUL00023608@hotmail.com>

Gentles, I believe part of the rationale (if such is really possible) behind 
dropping the nuclear weapons on Japan was that the person[1] running the 
country refused to believe that the Americans would have the capacity (moral 
or technological) to defeat the "honorable" Japanese nation.
Unfortunately, the only way to get through his racism and bigotry  - and 
show him that he *would* not win by forcew of arms - was to kill thousands 
of "innocent" civilians.  Whilst such a move is horrific for us to 
contemplate today, remember that the circumstances then were a little 
different...

[1]IIRC, Emporer Hirohito - who continued to see *absolutely nothing wrong* 
in the abuses his soldiers inflicted on prisoners until the day he died...

Jeff (aka Captain Chicken, leg-end in his own lunchbox).

"The party waits until it hears the pre-arranged signal - a scream - then 
decides it must be headed in the wrong direction and leaves Jackie to her 
fate..."

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 05:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Aug  2 04:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <99.2a2d475a.2a779a93@aol.com> <3D4A0109.D48E52E6@pobox.com> <005801c23a04$ec770b20$0112bd50@martinjd> <006401c23a0f$3ca9da00$7400a8c0@matt> <003201c23a14$66243100$7d03bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <00a601c23a14$be1ddbe0$7400a8c0@matt>

MJ Dougherty wrote:
>>> Huh? 1000 tons is an escort, or a frigate or something. But
>>> certainly not a fighter.
>>
>> The House rule I use to allow Fighters to be more effective is to let
>> Squadrons be treated as Batteries. ie, each fighter in the squadron
>> is the equivalent of a turret in a battery, with corresponding
>> increase in weapon USP, at the penalty of fewer salvos.
>
> Why do you want fighters to be more effective?

So that they can have an outside possibility of damaging Capital ships at
high TL

>> This represents the squadron acting in
>> a co-ordinated way to attack a single target, concentrating their
>> fire on one spot so as to overwhelm it. The capital ship firing on
>> the attacking squadron still has to target individual fighters. As
>> fighters are destroyed, recalculate the effective USP of the
>> squadrons 'battery'
>
> I see the concept, though you'd have to simulate C3 breakdowns, loss
> of cohesion etc

Sure, just as soon as we do the same for the escorting PD ships of the
defending Fleet...

HG is pretty abstract anyway, so this level of detail is unnecessary IMHO.
All I am doing is letting Fighters act like Turrets. If several turrets can
concentrate their fire to increase their effectiveness, why can't several
fighters?

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 05:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Brian Caball)
Date: Fri Aug  2 04:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com>
References: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com>
Message-ID: <02080212144000.29943@avlendris>

> How
> serious is the trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took place because
> the small island of England was not self-sufficient in either agricultural
> or industrial matters, but I don't think this situation will arise on many
> _planets_.  If trade is truly a major issue and lifeline then a massed herd
> of raiders will be crippling regardless of any other fleet elements
> employed.  But I think most planets with populations sufficient to have
> significant trade connections will have huge internal capacites to produce
> what they need anyway, and huge reserves of whatever they have to import
> (consider our Strategic Oil Reserve).  

If planets are so self sufficient, then why does TNE describe planets failing 
because they were cut off from interstellar trade?

-Brian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 05:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 04:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com>
Message-ID: <004c01c23a1c$26d3b860$7d03bd50@martinjd>

>
> A good point worthy of discussion.  I have commerce raiders, but I
envision
> them as travelling in a single mass, outrunning and dodging attempts by
> serious fleet elements to pursue them (unless, of course, the raiders
blunder
> into them).  Small patrols and escorts are never going to be able to deal
> with such a herd, while major patrols and escorts deployed everywhere will
> seriously impact the size of the remaining core fleet.

If you spread out a mix of powerful and less powerful commerce raiders,
you'll pull more fleet assets away. That's half the point.


>How serious is the
> trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took place because the small
island
> of England was not self-sufficient in either agricultural or industrial
> matters, but I don't think this situation will arise on many _planets_.

It'll impact revenue, which hurts over time. More importantly, it hurts
civilian morale and causes demands for proteciton. And you can damage the
logistics train - if the enemy is missile-heavy, he has to get them to the
battle area...

>If
> trade is truly a major issue and lifeline then a massed herd of raiders
will
> be crippling regardless of any other fleet elements employed.

Until it inevitably gets squashed. Dispersed raiding works better, other
than for targeted strikes, say on a critical system to massacre the
concentration of merhcant shipping there.

>But I think
> most planets with populations sufficient to have significant trade
> connections will have huge internal capacites to produce what they need
> anyway, and huge reserves of whatever they have to import (consider our
> Strategic Oil Reserve).  I see raiders as nothing more than annoyance
attacks
> -- they can't lay seiges, they can't do major battles, and they can't stay
in
> any area too long or some task force will find them and kick their ass --
> that can't be instantly responded to in an adequate manner.  You can't be
> strong everywhere, and if you try you'll be rolled up.  Further, if your
> opponent takes that tonnage that you devoted to patrols and escorts and
uses
> it to build a major fleet element instead, that element will be able to
> stroll through the isolated patrols and escorts like a bull in a china
shop,
> wasting the tonnage you devoted to them.

Assuming he's rich enough to afford a fleet like that. Guerre de Course has
always been the weaker nation's option.

>
>  >> If you "cover all the bases" with warm bodies but have to flee every
>  >> time the heavyweight enemy shows up then what good is that?  There is
no
>  >> substitute for victory, and to get that victory you need the
heavyweights
> and
>  >> you need more of them than your enemy.
>  >
>  >You need greater concentration of force at the critical point. That can
be
>  >done with less ships, better handled and supported.
>
> I don't think you can get "greater concentration of force" with "less
ships".

I have 6 ships, you have 12. I draw 8 of your ships away with a feint, and
gain local superiority. You sent them all? Great. I smash your base. You
sent none? Well, if my recon is up to it I'll know. Next time I just smash
something elsewhere , maybe with pairs of my ships, while you sit tight and
wait for the big clash at JUtland.

>  All other things being equal, if 1/3 of your fleet runs into 2/3 of the
> enemy fleet then you're gonna get smooshed.  Then all your patrols and
> escorts won't matter.

Unless my ships are better/more survivable/able to break off after drawing
you into a predcitable position, so others of my ships can smash stuff
elsewhere.


>
>  >That said, victory is not necessarily gained by defeating the enemy
battle
>  >fleet. If you do that, but he scrubs your industrial worlds with
planetary
>  >raider ships, or kills your economy with commerce raiders, then you may
not
>  >have won at all.
>
> True.  But several points.  1)  If all he has left is raiders, then you'll
> march into _his_ territory with some surviving unopposed capital ships
while
> sending the rest after the raiders, who will be forced to continuously
flee
> with no refuge.

Yes, though you'll have to fight his system defense monitors and meson guns
sites while his raiders play hell with your logistics and maul damaged ships
headed home for repair.

2)  Major industrial worlds will have their own local
> defense forces, and no raider fleet I can imagine will be able to take on
an
> AX (population A, tech (game tech level)) world's local defense force, so
the
> majority of your population should be safe.

Yes. But your logistics and trade may not be. And there is still room for
deception and assymetric attack.

3)  How would you stop this
> anyway?  A large raider force is not expensive to build, but if you try to
> put anti-raider forces sufficient to engage such raiders at every possible
> point they may attack then you won't have much left on your front lines,
and
> the enemy will wind up attacking your industrial worlds not with raiders
but
> with capital ships.

That was my point. Chasing down raiders requires capable ships and many of
them. Your all-dreadnought fleet can't cover enough ground to do it. You
need cruisers and second-line battleships (the Type R battleships did a lot
of Atlantic escort work, and were a powerful deterrernt to surface raiders,
even though they were sometimes outclassed). Point is, you need adequate
low-end escorts and commerce proteciton ships, else your powerful fleet ends
up guarding nothing, with no logistics support top keep it in being.

4)  As for commerce interdiction it will be unpopular
> with the folks, but in my opinion not militarily significant.

Military operations have two axis of atack - they can attack the Means of
the enemy to make war, or the Will to do so. Commerce raiding is a direct
attack on the Will (unhappy people yelling for peace) and an indirect one on
the Means (logistics). It works.

>
>  >> If by patrol you mean scouts, then yes.  But if you mean general
policing
>  >> then I'd think that would be a local police matter and not a fleet
matter.
>  >
>  >I mean patrol ships to defeat piracy, commerce raiding and smuggling,
>
> That's all local.  If a system is really strapped, I'd send some fleet
> escorts to help out.

You have enough of those? RW experience has shown that there are NEVER
enough, and I seem to remember you quoting a very low percentage devoted to
escorts.

>War is not always imminent, after all.  Too, while the
> Imperium cares about some weapons, why should it care about the smuggling
of
> anything else?  "Admiral!  Smugglers are transporting illegal cargos of
> cigarettes to Zivije!"  "Ensign, go there immediately.  Buy me a few
packs."

These activities undermine the commerce of the Imperium, and its ovbserved
rule of law. Dangerous.

>
>  >to
>  >catch enemy intelligence ships and recon vessels
>
> I'd use scouts to watch them, and try to catch them on the way out -- if I
> thought they had relevant information.  What are they going to say?
"There's
> a planet here!"?  "There's some sort of secret facility over here!"?
"There
> were no ships in this system two months ago!"?  But frankly, a traitor
> civilian in a free trader or a seeker would be impossible to detect, and
> would provide just as much information.

Your scouts can be killed by armed recon frigates, or lost in Jump. You
cannot guarantee catching even some recon recon ships. A Jump-6 recon
frigate can bring timely information to a raider squadron on escort and
patrol deployments. Yes, there is a comm lag and thus plenty of fog. But
it's better than nothing. Free Trader traitors might also be useful, but
slower.

>
>  >to prevent the stockpiling of forward supply bases
>
> Scouts would see the incoming traffic, and the fleet would send some
elements
> to check it out.
>
>  >to gain intelligence
>
> Scouts again.

Can your scout ships movve fast enough? Are they survivable enough, and wll
armed to deal with immeduiate threats as they flee? If they are, then
they're naval units.


>
>  >to show the flag and keep systems in line....
>
> I'd use the regular fleet to do that.  "Join the Navy and see the world!"

So your dreadnoughts tour en masse, or independently? You're dispersing your
capital ships?

>
> It's getting late.  I hope I've said something useful with a minimum of
> "noise".

Let's turn this on its head. Can you explain how this model of yours
works...? How do you plan to fight a war with it?










> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 05:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 04:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <99.2a2d475a.2a779a93@aol.com> <3D4A0109.D48E52E6@pobox.com> <005801c23a04$ec770b20$0112bd50@martinjd> <006401c23a0f$3ca9da00$7400a8c0@matt> <003201c23a14$66243100$7d03bd50@martinjd> <00a601c23a14$be1ddbe0$7400a8c0@matt>
Message-ID: <005901c23a1d$16700d60$7d03bd50@martinjd>

> > Why do you want fighters to be more effective?
>
> So that they can have an outside possibility of damaging Capital ships at
> high TL

And again, why do you want this? Barring me swallowing some and suffering
some strange kind of poisoning, no amount of flies can beat me in a straight
fight. My feeling is that fightrers are good for screening and keeping
merchies in line. Big ships are for killing big ships.

> >
> > I see the concept, though you'd have to simulate C3 breakdowns, loss
> > of cohesion etc
>
> Sure, just as soon as we do the same for the escorting PD ships of the
> defending Fleet...

Indeed, though coordinaitng a useful fighter attack requires external comms.
Escorts can operate on internal comms (hard to jam) and even independently,
can be useful if the captains are smart. Uncoordinated fighters are just as
big mess.

>
> HG is pretty abstract anyway, so this level of detail is unnecessary IMHO.
> All I am doing is letting Fighters act like Turrets. If several turrets
can
> concentrate their fire to increase their effectiveness, why can't several
> fighters?

Becuase turrets are controlled with internal comms, hardwired through the
ship, while ifghters have to talk externally and are subject to jamming or
other problems. And becuase you don't get a battery of turrests scattering
due to evasion and having to reform.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <a6.29f91dee.2a7a2a7a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B1E74.16706.D41575@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 2:08, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> This tactic is presented not as a desperation move, but an ordinary
> one to be implemented if said navy can put up with it.  To which I
> responded that no fighter pilot community would tolerate it.  Even
> if the attacking squadron is originally 1000, after two capital
> ships they'll be combat ineffective using this tactic, and there
> will be NO volunteers to replace them until the tactic is discarded. 

That's contrary to history - in WWII many units in all combatants 
armies took those sorts of casualties, and New Zealand, the USA, 
Britain and the USSR (and probably others) all continued to have people 
volunteering throughout the war.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:07:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:07:50 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <91.20daf914.2a7a2267@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B1E74.16846.D4152F@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 1:34, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
 
> Will they come apart if they take 98% casualties between breakfast and lunch? 
>  That is on a level with the original post that started this discussion.

No it wasn't, because the original post didn't specify a proportion, 
merely an absolute quantity.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:08:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:08:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Kit (as our British friends say)
In-Reply-To: <d4.1b055146.2a7a030a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B1E74.26826.D414E9@localhost>

On 31 Jul 2002 at 23:20, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> >In boot camp, when I received my first pay statement (just a receipt, we
> >didn't get any actual checks until graduation) I was shocked to find out
> >that I was actually in the hole to Uncle Sam. I had no idea that every bit
> >of equipment (except loaners like web gear, canteens, and weapons) came out
> >of our own pockets.
> 
> One of my favorite bits of reading is a papyrus detailing the pay record of a 
> Roman soldier in Egypt ca. 250 AD There are deductions for uniform and 
> equipment, mandatory deposit to the unit savings bank, contributions to the 
> burial fund (insurance) and the unit Saturnalia feast (held around the same 
> time as Christmas), and stoppages to pay for a wine bar demolished in the 
> course of a brawl. Every soldier I have ever shown it to marvels at the line 
> on the bottom:
> 
> "Copy 2 of 3, for unit archives"

Doesn't surprise me in the slightest. Those old Sumerian clay tablets 
are all (or almost all) warehousing records and accounts, and the 
Mykenean writing recovered from their palaces is all the same.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:09:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:09:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com>
References: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020802220750.A12763@freeman.little-possums.net>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> How serious is the trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took
> place because the small island of England was not self-sufficient in
> either agricultural or industrial matters, but I don't think this
> situation will arise on many _planets_.

Not for the planets of any meaningful military capacity, anyway.  99%
of the production of the Imperium comes from 10% of the planets.  The
combined trade of those planets with every other planet (including
each other) is about 0.2% of their combined economies.  That means
that whatever they import can't be worth much.

Minor backwaters on "major" trade routes might be crippled.  That
might have political effect on the state as a whole, but no direct
economic or military effect.

The trade situation in the Imperium is *drastically* unlike that
between any group of nations on Earth.  Trade between nations on Earth
is a significant fraction of total economic activity, I would guess
roughly 30-40% based on data from the CIA factbook.  In the Imperium,
trade is less than 0.4%.  If you could disrupt *all* of it, it would
probably have less effect than capturing or destroying the productive
capability of a single hi-pop world.


In short, I agree.  England was hundreds of times more dependent upon
trade than are any of the important planets in Traveller.
Furthermore, raiding ships in Traveller have to contend with system
defences.  There are no mid-ocean battles in Traveller; you're always
fighting in someone's backyard.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:11:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:11:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <8d.1bfa1383.2a7a4253@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B1F74.9458.D7FBED@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 3:50, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>  >> He will shuck and jive, pretend equipment failures, or run.  He most
>  >> certainly won't volunteer for that sort of duty again.
>  >
>  >That's a pretty low opinion of a fellow officer
> 
> A fellow officer, he says!  They wouldn't be officers, they'd be cannon 
> fodder.  And they'd know it.

Interesting that you see figther pilots as having the state of non-
cannon fodder as their natural state, and that they'd be scarce 
resources. I can't see them as being any more or less expendable than 
any other ship crew, as all crew positions that are combat relevant are 
skilled. I also find your position interesting in that it assumes that 
highly skilled people are 'more cautious' (to be polite) than those 
that are supposedly less highly trained/skilled (like grunts).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] [OT] Starship Troopers (was: Comic Book Battles)
In-Reply-To: <B9681E36.3499%shadowjack@skyhighway.com>
Message-ID: <20802.043414.9M3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
>> Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 17:25:19
>
>> Virginia Heinlein agreed to a different script, and was shafted.  She told
>> the SF community that she came close to suing the studio until it was made
>> clear that she would lose.  She appeared on screen at a WorldCon and
>> apologized to the assembled fans for not handling the property better..
>> then set off a near riot by casully mentioning that the same mistakes will
>> not be made with the "Stranger in a Strange Land" movie...
>
> I'm trying to imagine that as a movie, and just can't quite get it through
> my head. Are we talking Hollywood here? "Stranger in a Strange Land"?
> Grokking and all that?

Think "sex and naked chicks". :-|
 
> Gee, who'll they get for "Stranger"?

The first report I recall regarding someone tryng to get backers was
back in 1970...

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:14:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:14:39 2002
Subject: [TML] [OT] Starship Troopers (was: Comic Book Battles)
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEDJEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20802.043609.9X7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Virginia Heinlein agreed to a different script, and was shafted.  She told
>> the SF community that she came close to suing the studio until it was made
>> clear that she would lose.  She appeared on screen at a WorldCon and
>> apologized to the assembled fans for not handling the property better..
>> then set off a near riot by casully mentioning that the same mistakes will
>> not be made with the "Stranger in a Strange Land" movie...
>
> I wonder if she sold all rights or not. In other words could a decent
> filmmaker take another crack at ST in a few years or not?

Not "she". The movie rights were likely sold *decades* ago.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:16:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:16:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <02080212144000.29943@avlendris>
References: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com> <02080212144000.29943@avlendris>
Message-ID: <20020802221422.B12763@freeman.little-possums.net>

Brian Caball wrote:
> If planets are so self sufficient, then why does TNE describe
> planets failing because they were cut off from interstellar trade?

If external trade is so essential to the continued survival of
planets, why is it worth less than 0.4% of the economy?  These two
facts need to be reconciled before any answer can be attempted.

Personally, my opinion is that TNE needed an apocalypse and lack of
trade was just an excuse.  Virus infecting the control systems of high
tech worlds down all the way down to the level of toasters clearly
wasn't enough.  Probably just my personal dislike for post-disaster
settings showing, though.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <005201c23944$b5f3ac40$6e09bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3D4B24F2.20758.ED70D3@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 11:17, MJ Dougherty wrote:

> IE Units will NOT enter routine combat situations where they know
> they will be massacred. 

I think it depends a lot on the chances of success and the value the 
soldier (or pilots, or whatevers) place on that success. If the plan 
calls for the certain death of a good proportion of a unit for a low 
chance of success for an unimportant objective there'll be problems. 
If, OTOH the plan is for several hundred fighters to attack a 
battleship and it's guaranteed that the BB will die for the cost of a 
hundred fighters I think you'd have plenty of volunteers as long as 
there was some benefit in killing that BB (ie it didn't have so many 
friends that your side just couldn't kill them all, etc.)


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:34:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:34:41 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <m3ptx2twnf.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <e6.2be0ca41.2a7a3051@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B24F2.27371.ED703D@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 9:40, Robert Uhl wrote:

> I'll say again: it depends on the size of the wave.  How large were
> the British waves in WWII when 100-200 a night were lost?

Those losses were from the big '1000 bomber' raids. Smaller raids lost 
less aircraft in absolute terms, but often more as a percentage.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:35:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:35:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Kit (as our British friends say)
In-Reply-To: <02080113001703.22132@avlendris>
References: <20020801115445.5089.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B24F2.24886.ED6FF7@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 13:00, Brian Caball wrote:

> 
> > > "Copy 2 of 3, for unit archives"
> >   OMG!!!!! The, the, the......[sigh]......
> 
> This seems to be flying right over my head... is that what the modern 
> equivalents also say or something?

Just about every piece of paper in the military has three or four 
copies of it made. One for the recipient, one for the issuing body's 
archives and one for the parent body's records, plus for many things 
one for military intelligence. The MI's copies of battalion paperwork 
used to be pink, and we got one of just about everything. Right handy 
for working out what was going to happen next - when battalion suddenly 
gets a whole lot of tropical gear you know you're not going to be going 
to Antarctica (in theory anyway).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:37:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:37:04 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <007201c23945$6b27eae0$6e09bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3D4B24F2.5802.ED708D@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 11:22, MJ Dougherty wrote:

> 
> > >Try the loss rates for some of the RAF's 1000 bomber night attacks,
> >  >then. Over 100 bombers in a night wasn't exceptional (IIRC some were
> >  >near the 200 mark) and while that rate was unsustainable it wasn't for
> >  >lack of volunteers, but because aircraft take time to make and crews
> >  >take time to train.
> >
> > Imminent threats to national survival, of course, change casualty rate
> > acceptance.  But the original subject was hundreds of fighter pilots for
> the
> > one or two lucky shots to kill a capital ship as a standard by-the-book
> > tactic.  Never happen.
> 
> Besides, bomber crews did so many missions and then OUT. Your odds of
> getting killed on any one of those missions were relatively small, but they
> stacked up. However, you *knew* you'd probably get out before your number
> came up. Whether it was true or not is another matter, but you knew.... if
> the odds had been 50% chance of death per mission, and you'll keep on being
> sent in again and again, well...

Well the rates for night flights over Germany were up around the 10%+ 
mark for some nights, and were almost never under 5%. I forget how many 
missions made a tour in the RAF, but it was enough that not finshing a 
tour was quite normal. Despite this many crewmen signed up for tour 
after tour until they were shot down or broke under the stress.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:37:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff D. Greenly)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:37:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #859 - 22 msgs
Message-ID: <sd4a444e.089@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>

>Message: 2
>From: Flykiller@aol.com 
>Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 03:11:16 EDT
>Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
>To: tml@travellercentral.com 
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com 
>
>>Would a world that has 80% of its surface covered by water, a dense
>>nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, and one moon that is large enough to
exert a
>>tidal effect tend to be more or less climatically active? Assume
>>moderate (terran-normal) vulcanism and a fairly non-polluting early
TL
>>aqua/agricultural society. Also assume standard polar ice caps and
>>rotation around 20 deg. off the plane of the ecliptic. I'll welcome
any
>>and all comments...
>
>I've often wondered along those lines.  If you look at our system the
size 2 
>moon is at the very limit (book 6) of its possible orbit, yet when
generating 
>traveller systems it is quite possible to have much larger moons
orbiting 
>much closer to their world.  The tides would be huge.  I would imagine
there 
>would be very few costal cities throughout most systems, because
they'd be 
>flooded by 50 foot tides.
>
>As I understand it weather is caused mostly by heat transfer across a

>planet's surface.  Since your world has a 20 degree axial tilt then I
would 
>think its weather would be about comparable to Terra's.  If denser
atmosphere 
>holds more heat then it should be more active.

Mr. Fly,

Thanks for replying... I haven't generated all of the other system
details, so I have a few variables still missing. The planet that I am
currently working on, Knorbes (Regina/SM), is a tough world to do
because it's geography is very Terran, it's rich, agricultural, and has
80 million-plus people governed by a civil serrvice bureaucracy, and is
at tech level 2, which isn't easy to reconcile. The big hangup for me is
(always) the physical science. You see, I spent most of my time in the
Liberal Arts when I was in school, and it did me an irrepairable brain
injury. Traveller is therapy for me now. Anyway, it sounds to me like
you are on the right track. The questions I have are, does a dense
atmosphere hold more energy? Wouldn't it take that much more energy to
"move" a dense atmosphere into weather changes? Would the world's oceans
act as thermal "batteries", and if so, how would they affect the
weather? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the matter...

Jeff

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:38:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:38:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <F228Wv2vyWb6cxHKx7000010140@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B2568.16012.EF3EB3@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 15:57, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

> 
>      "...although not as bad as the Swordfish(1)."
> 
> 
> Ladies and Gentlemen,
> 
>      Please excuse me, I forgot to add the footnote.
> 
> 
> (1) - The Swordfishs' very obs0lescence may have actually helped it survive 
> in battle.  A most likely apophrycal story from the Bismarck saga has the 
> German AA fire missing the attacking Swordfish because the aircraft were 
> moving too SLOW, the AA crews led their targets by too much.  Swordfish made 
> their torpedo runs at ~90 mph and weather conditions could drop that speed 
> even further.
>      The Swordfish may been viwed as a joke by other navies, it still got 
> the job done at Taranto and with the Bismarck however.

I'm pretty sure that their slow speed wasn't a factor in the Bismark 
action, but it was a factor in the 'Channel Dash' (as was piss poor 
communications on the British side).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <2d16412cfe49.2cfe492d1641@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <3D4B26E5.29810.F51057@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 20:20, john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:

> OTOH, the Stringbag was never sent into battle against carrier-based 
> fighters.  The TBD pilots at Midway, meanwhile, had to try to survive 
> without fighter cover against the A6M Zero.  Hardly a fair contest (of 
> course, any military leader who tries to fight war _fairly_ isn't doing 
> the job correctly).

However Swordfish did go up against serious air-cover during the 
'Channel Dash' by Scharnhost and Gneisenau and while their losses 
weren't insignificant they weren't as high as they might have been, 
largely because they were flying so slowly that the German fighters 
couldn't line up and get decent firing positions on them. The Beauforts 
which were somewhat faster and had a (slightly) better defensive 
armament took quite a hammering, IIRC.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Character Conversions
Message-ID: <20020802124732.56CF54505@mo130uhou.palm.net>



David Smart <jurrubin@earthlink.net> wrote:
[snip]
> I've just finished converting a Zho generated from the CT 
>Zho supplement into GT and he's practically god-like (rolled incredibly well 
>back in '87 for psionics). 
[snip] 
>Then again, I've played this guy through 5 long-term campaigns. Great for solo 
>runs but a bit overpowering with other, more youthful characters. 

Sounds like a great reoccuring villian.

----------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere. 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CDE@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <3D4B28F8.948.FD2916@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 16:42, Hurrel, Brian wrote:

> "No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy."
> 
> I'm paraphrasing, and can't remember who said this. Maybe Clausewitz(SP?).

Moltke, IIRC, but it's probably about as old as warfare itself.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 07:16:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Fri Aug  2 06:16:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020802092329.00a31a10@mail.buffnet.net>

Has anyone noted the set up with regards to the number of starports that 
can produce starships versus those that can only builld system ships?  And 
to make matters worse, there aren't that many high tech star ports around


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 07:17:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Marsh)
Date: Fri Aug  2 06:17:06 2002
Subject: [TML] re: juries
Message-ID: <F91hrbvkBs9XMgFNhPt000249a8@hotmail.com>

I have served on a number of juries here in the good 'ol USA (1 civil, 2 
criminal) and in general have always been impressed by how careful and 
deliberate people have been in trying to be fair as well as seek justice 
within the constraints of the case as it is given. I have always come out of 
the process feeling much better about the US jury system. I was on one drug 
case where we just KNEW the guy was guilty but the state failed to prove the 
case beyond a reasonable doubt so we could not find him guilty. The cops 
just didn't get the goods on him.


>From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>To: "Traveller-Digest" <tml@travellercentral.com>
>Subject: [TML] re:  juries
>Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 15:53:12 -0700
>
> >From: Flykiller@aol.com
>
>someone wrote:
> >Amateur juries
> >seem to me to be ill equipped to handle many kinds of cases.
>
>Flykiller@aol.com replied:
> >True.  And irrelevant to why they exist.  Juries aren't meant to be
> >professional, quite the opposite.  Juries are meant to be a last and 
>final
> >check and balance against governmental power over individual citizens.  
>The
> >government can't put anyone in jail unless they can get a bunch of 
>amateur
> >citizens to agree.  It's preferable to the alternative.
>
>If you can't explain your case so that twelve ordinary people understand 
>it,
>then you don't understand your case adequately.
>
>--Glenn
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml




_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 07:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  2 06:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <200208021317.LXD04141@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>
>In short, I agree.  England was hundreds of times more 
>dependent upon trade than are any of the important planets 
>in Traveller.
>Furthermore, raiding ships in Traveller have to contend with 
>system defences.  There are no mid-ocean battles in 
>Traveller; you're always fighting in someone's backyard.

IMHO, in major systems that are hi-pop, hi-tech, with large 
industrial bases, the critical resources are on more than 
just one planet - there are probably mining bases all over 
the system - the gas giants must be defended to keep enemy 
ships from refuelling - and for economical reasons, there may 
be more than one high port.

A large system like this would have to maintain a 
considerable number of ships in order to defend these assets, 
and protect shipping between these points.  Convoys may be 
forced to use jump ships to do intrasystem jumps to avoid 
raiders, and ships inbound/outbound from the system would 
have to jump at the 100D limit without fail after being 
escorted the entire distance to and from the port.

In essence, laying siege to such a system might first mean 
whittling down the system defense boats and local fighters 
with fighter raids and light commerce raiders.  You might, 
after a time, be left only with your larger monitors, port 
defenses, and planetary defense sites.  Ships as small as 
fighters may also lay mines on courses to sweep through 
traffic areas.  I would bet that for such an advanced system, 
while it might well be able to subsist on its own, it won't 
profit as much, especially if it engages in trade with a 
nearby world of similar stature.  It would even affect local 
trade, and local merchant shipping would be affected, even if 
losses were light.

A continuous series of light hit and run raids would force 
diversion of assets you would ordinarily use elsewhere, or 
force the construction and maintenance of substantial non-
jump forces.  If you chose to ignore the raiding on the idea 
that it doesn't affect your economy too much, the locals who 
live there might be of another opinion.  It would also invite 
a full scale assault after a time.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 08:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Fri Aug  2 07:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Warships
References: <b4.f32c32a.2a76d569@aol.com> <3D487967.3734.F911EB@localhost>
Message-ID: <043b01c23a2f$bc26f9a0$1f9e15ac@warrior>

> Firstly, Planets are big, have vast reserves of power, and can have have
an
> effective armarment far beyond that of even the largest fleet. Secondly,
> working around a planet is the space equivlent of naval "confined waters".
> Maneuver is severely restricted and ranges are short. These two things
> mean that interface combat around a well defended world will be brutal and
> any vessel not specifically designed for it will become a glowing hulk
very
> quickly. Of course the problem is that such vessels have limited
> usefulness outside their designed role and virtually none in peacetime.
>

This brings up one of my revelations about strategic combat in traveller.
After realizing this, it occurred to the that strategic warfare functions a
lot like strategic warfare in medieval of renaissance times.  I.E. where
defense is stronger than offense.  Medieval or Renaissance armies almost
never fought battles.  Battles are dicey affairs where things can go either
way.  Nobody wants that.  Mostly the armies would lay siege to castles and
fortresses, taking them slowly by starvation or rarely, quickly by storm.

I imagine that to large insteller states at war with one and other in
Traveller would operate the same way.  Nobody wants to get into a pitched
fleet battle unless he or she has a clear and obvious advantage.  Most of
the time the fleets jump in system, establish a blockade, and threaten drop
big ass rocks on a world to try to arrange a surrender.  If the world
doesn't surrender, you either bombard/assault (I.e. storm) or blockade and
wait them out (I.e. starve).


later
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 08:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Aug  2 07:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Blowing holes in Japan (was " Re Patton")
Message-ID: <F2374oW3zJzsGOJZ6Fz00024494@hotmail.com>

From: "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com>

     "[1]IIRC, Emporer Hirohito - who continued to see *absolutely nothing 
wrong* in the abuses his soldiers inflicted on prisoners until the day he 
died..."


Mr. Rowse,

     The behavior of the Japanese military in WW2 is one of the least 
studied aspects of that conflict.  During Japan's rise to first a regional, 
then a hemispheric power, her armed forces were consistently praised by 
observers for their model behavior.  Both the IJA and IJN recieved this 
praise during the Sino-Japanese and Russo-Japanese wars and during WW1.
     When they began to invade and occupy China proper in the early 30's, 
the wheels seemed to come off however.  Japanese troops were soon notorious 
for their behavior.  None of their actions needs repeating here, but they 
equalled, if not exceeded, those of the Nazis for ferocity, if not 
organization.
     Still, there were isolated examples of Japanese units behaving as their 
fathers and grandfathers may have.  During the Leyte Gulf brawl, various USN 
DDs and DEs sacrificed themselves so that the CVEs of Taffy 3 could flee 
from the BBs and CAs of the IJN's Central Force.  The crew of one CE, still 
clinging to the wreckage of their ship, reported that the crew of an IJN CA 
passing by MANNED THE RAILS and saluted them.  However, the crew of another 
sunken CE was sprayed with MG and pom-pom fire as an IJN warship passed.
     IMHO, Hirohito should have mounted the scaffold ahead of Tojo.  He was 
intimately involved in the planning and operation of both the China and 
Pacific wars.  If SCAP needed the stability an emperor brought to Japan, 
then an infant, with a regent, should have been installed on the throne.(1)
     One fact that people hashing out the 1945 A-bomb decision tend to 
forget is that the US was reading most of Japan's diplomatic and political 
dispatches in real time.  The US knew in August of '45 that the Imperial War 
Cabinet was still adament about continuing the war and was taking 
precautions to do just that.  They still had 5 million men in uniform in on 
the Asian mainland and were beginning to shift them to the home islands to 
meet Operations Cornet and Olympic.
     Even after the SECOND use of the bomb, at Nagasaki, the Imperial War 
Cabinet was deadlocked on the question to surrender.  Hirohito had to cast 
the tie-breaking vote, only the second time in modern Imperial Japanese that 
the emperor had had to vote at all.(2)
     Once Hirohito's surrender speech had been recorded for broadcast, a 
cabal of army officers still came within a whisker of seizing and destroying 
that record.
     An invasion of the Home Islands may not have resulted in the one 
million Allied casulties bandied about, but it still would have been costly. 
  Occupation would have been costly still.  The Japanese, unlike the Nazis, 
had made real plans and provisions for a post-surrender terrorist/resistance 
campaign.
     An Allied invasion would have also included the USSR.  There could have 
been a Tokyo wall to match the one in Berlin.  Today, Japan could be 
struggling to assimilate and rebuild Hokkaido and the northern half of 
Honshu, just as the Germans are still trying to deal with the eastern 
portions of their recently reunited nation.
     Also, an Allied/USSR invasion in 1945 would mean that the entire Korean 
penninsular would now be under the control of the freaks in Pyongyang.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

(1) The Allies had the "recent" (1919) example of Imperial Germany in their 
minds.  An infant grandson of Kaiser Bill installed with a regent may have 
helped the post-WW1 governments of Germany with their problems of internal 
credibility.

(2) The only other time the Emperor had voted, IIRC, was to break the tie 
for the adoption of the Imperial Constitution during the Meiji era.

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 08:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Maksim-Smelchak)
Date: Fri Aug  2 07:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"
In-Reply-To: <151.11ceca62.2a7b936d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPIEEGEDAA.max200@lanset.com>

>>> "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!" >>>

Under the rules of war, we've been discussing, if an enemy intentionally
builds fortifications or other military structures among a civilian
populance, then that enemy becomes rssponsible for the safety of those
aforementioned civilians. If those civilians are actively and willfully
supporting the enemy, then they are no longer considered noncombatants. So,
it IS Al Quaida's fault and responsibility if the US intentionally seeks to
bomb a legitimate military target that Al Qaida has hidden behind a human
shield.

Like someone mentioned earlier, barbarians (or terrorists in our case)
follow no rules, regulations, or niceties. However, we still follow those
rules in the hopes that the enemy might eventually see that war can become a
little less horrible (or barbaric) if we avoid the very worst that war can
bring (biological weapons, chemical weapons, rapine, etc.).

I don't blame the Israelis, the US, India, or any other nation if they incur
civilian casualties to destroy enemies who cravenly use the populations that
they claim their violence advocates as human shields.

On another point, I wouldn't support the dehumanization of another people,
but I also don't support covering up inhuman acts of an enemy for
"humanistic reasons" such as the media mostly forgetting to report on
Palestinian celebrations every time innocent babies and women are killed by
terrorist bombs in the US, Israel, India, or elsewhere. Granted that the
Palestinian Arab thugs threaten reporters with their lives and confiscate
media materials, but there is an element of will involved with reporters who
are willing to risk their lives to enter mostly lawless areas, but aren't
willing to sends their reports back to their publication headquarters.

There are a lot of ideas here to throw at characters in a Traveller
campaign!

Cheers,
Maksim-Smelchak.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Flykiller@aol.com
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 12:49 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Patton

 >The Germans, and
 >particularly the Japanese were horribly dehumanized.  We made our enemies
 >into monsters so then it was OK to exterminate them.

Seems to be part of the human condition.  Not only is the enemy an inhuman
monster and responsible for any and all evil, _we_ are pure as the
wind-driven snow in any and all circumstances. "It's Al Qaida's fault we
bombed a wedding party!"



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 08:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Fri Aug  2 07:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <20020802101235.98a3bb14da2249719a2c69a0b3078a17.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>> (1) - The Swordfishs' very obs0lescence may have actually helped it survive 
>> in battle.  A most likely apophrycal story from the Bismarck saga has the 
>> German AA fire missing the attacking Swordfish because the aircraft were 
>> moving too SLOW, the AA crews led their targets by too much.  Swordfish made 
>> their torpedo runs at ~90 mph and weather conditions could drop that speed 
>> even further.
>>      The Swordfish may been viwed as a joke by other navies, it still got 
>> the job done at Taranto and with the Bismarck however.
>
>I'm pretty sure that their slow speed wasn't a factor in the Bismark 
>action, but it was a factor in the 'Channel Dash' (as was piss poor 
>communications on the British side).

Were they?  I do not remember any FAA torpedo squadrons involved, and the
only torpedo squadron the RAF's Coastal Command had in England (The rest
were in the Med.) had Beauforts, if I remember correctly.

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

 My Sale List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
 My Want List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 09:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Aug  2 08:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Japan, Al Quaida et al
In-Reply-To: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPIEEGEDAA.max200@lanset.com>
References: <151.11ceca62.2a7b936d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B4813.21851.61BFC53@localhost>

Okay, may I please ask people to remember that the TML contains a wide 
variety of people with vastly differing views on a huge range of subjects and 
IMHO that this is not the place to rehash our world's nasty past (or 
present). I think discussing the Imperial Rules of War is great, I think 
discussing and laying blame for the tragedies of the real world is not. I 
believe we have a list (TML-chat) for that purpose.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 09:05:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Fri Aug  2 08:05:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <20020802102615.30aca70d97e74ef18326726c229541ca.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>On 1 Aug 2002 at 20:20, john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:
>
>> OTOH, the Stringbag was never sent into battle against carrier-based 
>> fighters.  The TBD pilots at Midway, meanwhile, had to try to survive 
>> without fighter cover against the A6M Zero.  Hardly a fair contest (of 
>> course, any military leader who tries to fight war _fairly_ isn't doing 
>> the job correctly).
>
>However Swordfish did go up against serious air-cover during the 
>'Channel Dash' by Scharnhost and Gneisenau and while their losses 
>weren't insignificant they weren't as high as they might have been, 
>largely because they were flying so slowly that the German fighters 
>couldn't line up and get decent firing positions on them. The Beauforts 
>which were somewhat faster and had a (slightly) better defensive 
>armament took quite a hammering, IIRC.

Well, it would have greatly improved the British chances of attacking the
German ships if it did not take until just before the Germans were passing
the Straits of Dover to even know they were at sea.  At least then, the
Brits could have had time to assemble an all-out attack instead of send the
aircrafts in dribbles and drabs which allowed the Luftwaffe to kill them.
One of Adolf Galland's finer moments, providing air cover for the cruisers.

There is also an interesting story of how one of the Britsh destroyers that
had sailed to engage the German ships had to turn back for port with engine
trouble.  While she was heading back, the RAF pulled a case of mistaken
identity and attacked her, only to be chased away by a flight of German
Bf-109s who then protected the destoyer and provided top cover until they
ran low on fuel...without ever realizing who they were defending...

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

 My Sale List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
 My Want List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 09:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Aug  2 08:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <20020802101235.98a3bb14da2249719a2c69a0b3078a17.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <3D4B49A4.30448.6221A7B@localhost>

On 2 Aug 2002, at 10:14, Cheng Tseng wrote:

> Were they?  I do not remember any FAA torpedo squadrons involved, and the only
> torpedo squadron the RAF's Coastal Command had in England (The rest were in
> the Med.) had Beauforts, if I remember correctly.

#825 Sqd, Lt Cmdr Esmonde led six Swordfish against the Scharnhorst, 
Gneisenau and Prinz Eugen with their escorts and heavy fighter cover. All 
six were shot down and only by a miracle did 5 of the 18 crew survive. Lt 
Cmdr Esmonde received the FAA's first VC for the attack.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 09:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 08:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <200208021543.g72Fhlw12656@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
...
>Raider-carriers are an excellent idea. I wonder if escort carriers could

  You can upgrade a target to carry a SOTA 50-Dt FH in a 100 ton
bay used for cargo in peacetime.

>counter them. Or if they could carry enough fighters to scrub a decent light
>cruiser before it closed and killed the carrier. Or....

  Sadly, HG2 doesn't allow those sorts of complications, but
any of the hex-based Trav games make riders/carriers _much_ 
less attractive for precisely that reason.

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 10:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 09:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <11ad10118abc.118abc11ad10@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Date: Thursday, August 1, 2002 10:45 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Patton

> on 8/1/02 12:31 PM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:
> 
> > and kill his wife and children.  Don't torture him if you capture
> > him.  In fact, if you capture him he's no longer a threat, so don't
> > kill him at all.
> 
> More than that, if you treat your prisoners well, and the enemy 
> knows it,
> they may be more inclined to surrender.  Would the Iraqis have 
> surrenderedin droves if we were shooting them out of hand and 
> putting their heads on
> poles?  I don't think so.

I forget which historian pointed out that the two pieces of information 
that travel most swiftly through an army in combat are the quality of 
care in one's own hospitals and the way in which the enemy treats 
captured personnel.  Poor prospects in the first case tends to reduce an 
army's effectiveness (who want to risk wounds if a trip to the hospital 
is nearly a guaranteed death sentence?), while poor prospects in the 
latter case tends to increase an army's willingness to fight ("if 
they're going to kill me anyway, I may as well take some of them with 
me!").

Besides, "dead men tell no tales."  In other words, if we kill prisoners 
of war (especially if we kill enemy soldiers trying to surrender), I 
can't interrogate them. ;-)




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 10:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 09:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <13b8e513938c.13938c13b8e5@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
Date: Friday, August 2, 2002 2:08 am
Subject: Re: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships

<<snip>>
> 
> If Side A wins the battle, does this mean they attempt to 
> salvage some Side B ships?  Is there a nuclear scuttle option 
> for capital ships to prevent enemy use?  Or would Side A 
> plant nuclear demolition charges on the wrecks of Side B to 
> ensure that damaged ships are not recovered?

This is from memory, so I may be off slightly....

Well, there is the case of _Bard Endeavour_, an AHL-class fleet 
intruder, during the Solomani Rim War.  The Solomani initiated a 
boarding action to capture the disabled vessel, which was in an unstable 
orbit with inoperable maneuver drives (but a working jump drive).  The 
few survivors of _Bar Endeavour's_ crew managed a textbook example of 
how to resist boarding; the Solomani boarding party was unable to take 
engineering or the auxiliary bridge and eventually evacuated.  47 (IIRC) 
crewbeings rode _Bard Endeavour_ in a catastrophic reentry.

No scuttling charges, but a documented attempt to seize a disabled enemy 
ship.

> ________________
> "I am Weasel!"

"Hear me roar! ;-)"



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 10:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 09:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <3D4B1E74.16706.D41575@localhost>
References: <a6.29f91dee.2a7a2a7a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020802094028.36370018@pop.mindspring.com>

At 12:06 AM 8/3/2002 +1200, you wrote:
>On 1 Aug 2002 at 2:08, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
>
>> This tactic is presented not as a desperation move, but an ordinary
>> one to be implemented if said navy can put up with it.  To which I
>> responded that no fighter pilot community would tolerate it.  Even
>> if the attacking squadron is originally 1000, after two capital
>> ships they'll be combat ineffective using this tactic, and there
>> will be NO volunteers to replace them until the tactic is discarded. 
>
>That's contrary to history - in WWII many units in all combatants 
>armies took those sorts of casualties, and New Zealand, the USA, 
>Britain and the USSR (and probably others) all continued to have people 
>volunteering throughout the war.

See the lines to volunteer for the British Army after Dunkirk or the US
Navy after Pearl Harbor.

People never believe it will happen to them.  It's the other guy that will
die.  Even after two years of trench warfare, troops were *still* going
over the top in futile charges.

The US Army did studies in which they discovered that the longest that a
solider can stay in a combat zone is about 100 days.  After that, he falls
apart.  So the Army began rotating units to rest areas so they could
recharge a little and get roaring drunk and contract VD before going back
into the line.  It will be harder for the Imperium to do this, but I think
it would be a priority to establish some sort of safe zone for the troops.
-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Animals who are not penguins can only wish they were.
-Chicago reader, 10/15/82

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 10:50:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 09:50:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <3D4B1F74.9458.D7FBED@localhost>
References: <8d.1bfa1383.2a7a4253@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020802094239.36dff48c@pop.mindspring.com>

At 12:10 AM 8/3/2002 +1200, you wrote:
>On 1 Aug 2002 at 3:50, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
>
>>  >> He will shuck and jive, pretend equipment failures, or run.  He most
>>  >> certainly won't volunteer for that sort of duty again.
>>  >
>>  >That's a pretty low opinion of a fellow officer
>> 
>> A fellow officer, he says!  They wouldn't be officers, they'd be cannon 
>> fodder.  And they'd know it.
>
>Interesting that you see figther pilots as having the state of non-
>cannon fodder as their natural state, and that they'd be scarce 
>resources. I can't see them as being any more or less expendable than 
>any other ship crew, as all crew positions that are combat relevant are 
>skilled. I also find your position interesting in that it assumes that 
>highly skilled people are 'more cautious' (to be polite) than those 
>that are supposedly less highly trained/skilled (like grunts).

Hell, as a sniper I was considered to be a highly-skilled soldier (not
cannon-fodder) and was expected to do insane things that were extremely
dangerous and most often fatal.  Snipers are rarely taken prisoner.  Enemy
troops tend to kill them when they are caught.  Doesn't stop the flow of
volunteers.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 10:51:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 09:51:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller HIDING
In-Reply-To: <124.1460d565.2a7b535d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020802094449.364f9a92@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:15 PM 8/1/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>Yes, basking in verbally-asserted superiority is indeed much more pleasant 
>than risking actual defeat.  But of course indulging in this makes you a 
>coward.

Uncalled for.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 10:52:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 09:52:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <140bd3139f9e.139f9e140bd3@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: James Ramsay <quakers_united@yahoo.com.au>
Date: Friday, August 2, 2002 2:23 am
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller

> QUOTE
> This tactic is presented not as a desperation move,
> but an ordinary one to be implemented if said navy can
> put up with it.  To which I responded that 
> no fighter pilot community would tolerate it.  Even if
> the attacking squadron is originally 1000, after two
> capital ships they'll be combat ineffective 
> using this tactic, and there will be NO volunteers to
> replace them until the tactic 
> is discarded.
> END QUOTE
> 
> But wouldn't more people die if it was cap ship vs.
> cap ship?

<tongue-in-cheek>

Yes, but (assuming that Imperial Navy practice is similar to US Navy 
practice since the end of WW II) the fighter pilots are all officers and 
gentlemen, while many of the capital ship crewbeings are mere ratings.

</tongue-in-cheek>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Meduim Navies
Message-ID: <3D4AB9A9.6B6DB02@mail.cswnet.com>

Three years ago Ian Ferguson posted a wonderful little thing called
"Small
Navies". I liked the idea very much, since I tried doing a straight TCS
and 
discovered that it created massive navies. However, Ian's "Small Navies"
was
just to small for my taste. I wanted something that would look like the
Fifth Frontier War Game, but not as big as a straight TCS Campaign. So,
after some thought, I've ginned this up. I call it "Meduim Navies".

Items used:
Ian Fergusons' "Small Navies" post (for budget modifiers)
Adventure 5 Trillion Credit Squadron
Striker (for apportionment).

Step one:
Generate peacetime naval budget

peacetime naval budget: Cr50 per person
	xTCS peacetime government type modifier (1.3 for type 7)
	x1.5 for Rich Worlds
	x.5 for Poor Worlds
	x2 for Independant Worlds

Step two:
Apportion Initial Naval Budget

70% goes to planetary and colonial navies
30% goes to Imperial forces

Step three:
Initial fleet budget

Per Adventure 5, ten times peacetime budget.
Apportioned 80% current tech, 20% lower tech.

For worlds TL6-, allow for mercenaries to be hired
at half the budget that would have gone to the navy.
Using meduim navies, this will allow for allot of 
mercenary ships, which ought to be more plentiful
than they seem to be. I would be interested in knowing
exactly how large a ship the Imperuim would permit Mercs
to use, and what armament the 3I would allow them to have.
Thoughts anyone?

Alternately, you could allow for the Imperial Scout Service
to recieve this money. Whatever floats your boat.

Initial Fleets, Lunion subsector

Imperial Navy MCr 2,835,544.748

Wardn. MCr 55
Smoug MCr 14700
Rabwhar MCr115,500 [divided by 2 and converted to Starport A TL12
Credits,
MCr 26497.0589. This would give Rabwhar something in the neighborhood of
57-58 Type C Merc Cruisers].
Adabicci MCr 322,000
Zaibon MCr 148.75
Ianic MCr 5433.75 [divided by 2 and converted to Starport A TL12
Credits,
MCr 894.9705. Gives Ianic a Type C Merc Cruiser and a couple of
escorts].
Spirelle MCr 312,375
Derchon MCr 36,225
Lunion MCr 3,080,000
Shirine MCr 252
Harvoset MCr 14175
Perisephone MCr 28350
Capon MCr 17,850
Strouden MCr 3,465,000

Note that I do not divide planetary and subsector navies. Basically,
my attitude is if it jumps its part of the subsector navy, if it 
doesn't jump its part of the planetary navy/coacc. Population is
from Spinward Marches campaign [eg Arba pop 2 multiplier 6, 600 people].
Pop differs from BTC but makes things easier/more uniform for the tax
preparer. I've also done this for the Lanth subsector. The Imperial
Navy gets MCr 68673.42 there for its initial fleet. Not having a High
Pop worlds makes a big difference.

This does take a little bit of work to do, but once you get the initial
fleet budgets up, you can get ahold of Andrew Moffat Vallences' High 
Guard Shipyard and Trillion Credit Squadron programs and build navies
to your hearts content.

I've already started on this for Adabicci. Its not complete yet, but
here is a partial list, using some ships built by AMV and some built 
by me.

TL11 Adabicci Squadron
1xArkansas [Washington Class] Battleship [!!!] 
Note: Thanks for building this Andrew, I've gotten a big kick out of
it.
5xCasiopia Destroyers
10xDaring Missile Boats
1xGriffon Missile  Boat Tender
5xT11  class Patrol Cruisers
10xType S class Scouts
5xBattle class Couriers
2xAmbush class Destroyers
5xFolgore class Assault Ships

TL10 Adabicci Squadron
10xDFC Frigates
30xAndrea Doria Auxilliary Transports

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Friends in High Places, Part Four.
In-Reply-To: <151.11ceca62.2a7b936d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020802120329.00793b30@minn.net>

                     Friends in High Places
                                
                           Part Four


     The walls of the Municipal Jail in Oshkosh on Regina were
painted in a standard institutional shade of light green. The
light reflected from the walls gave all persons and physical
objects in the jail a greenish tinge in appearance.
     "There is no spoon." Said Dana Wolfsburg. 
     Nothing happened.
     "There's no knives or forks either." Said the assistant
gunner, who very obviously failed to get the flat-film reference.
     The four members of the landing party were in the men's
holding tank at the Municipal Jail. Even though her gender on the
Imperial identification card was listed as female, Dana was stuck
in the men's tank because the local police gene-scanner persisted
in identifying her as a male human. This would merely be annoying
if the four crew members from the CHAUCHAT were alone in the
men's holding tank.
     Nursing a variety of non-lethal blunt-force injuries at the
other end of the holding tank were the surviving male members of
the local Orthodox Bargerite congregation. Three of them had been
dumb enough to actually shoot at the Imperial Marines who were
called in to deal with the armed altercation between the
Bargerites and the crew of the CHAUCHAT. The Marines promptly and
permanently removed the three trigger happy Bargerites from the
human gene pool.
     The door of the men's holding tank opened. Four Marines in
full battle dress and wielding stun-staffs walked in and formed a
line between the Bargerites and the landing party. Following the
Marines into the room was the Captain of the former Imperial Navy
Ship CHAUCHAT. 
     "Before you leave this joint," said Dennis Sterling to his
crew, "I want all of you to know that I, really and truly, DO NOT
enjoy asking for favors from Imperial officials."
     Dennis paused for dramatic effect.
     "Do all of you understand?"
     They did. The assistant gunner spoke up.
     "Are we taking your ex-wife with us?"
     Dennis glared at the subordinate, before he could give voice
to an answer to the damned question there came a noise from
across the cell. One of the Bargerites stood up and voiced with
obscene embellishment his claim to Helen, the former wife of the
Captain. With clenched fists the thug attempted to charge at the
Captain. Before the Marines could act, Dennis drew his pistol and
placed an 11.4 mm round through the thug's forehead.
     Captain Sterling glared at the remaining Bargerites.
     "Anyone else want to try me?"

     Doc continued to stare at the Tarot deck sitting on the
floor before her. 
     What was the point of having a Tarot deck if she wasn't
going to use it? The feeling of impending doom wasn't about to go
away by itself. At least do a three card spread.
     Doc picked up the deck and started to shuffle it.

     Ditzie was waiting at the front desk of the local jail, she
was sitting on a black ballistic cloth duffle bag. Standing next
to her was a Vargr in a black trench coat with black sunglasses.  
     Dennis introduced the Vargr to the rest of his crew.
     "This is Daevagh, he was a Lieutenant Commander in the
Imperial Navy, and he will be our navigator on the coming
voyage."
     The other crew members were worried, what voyage?
     Ditzie stood and spoke up.
     "We're going to the Vargr Extents!"
     
     Even though the Captain wasn't present, Doc decided to use
his as the Querent, the person for whom the divination was being
performed. A reasonable choice since the fate of all souls aboard
the CHAUCHAT was bound up to his.
     The first card Doc drew was the Page of Swords, not much of
a surprise there, the Captain was a former naval intelligence
officer.

     Dennis had other unfinished business to attend to, he
stepped into the women's holding cell. Loosely bunched at one end
of the cell were the female companions of the Orthodox
Bargerites, they were either unconscious or too badly injured to
move. Sitting on a bench at the other end of the cell was his
former wife, Helen. 
     Dennis raised an eyebrow in a Spock-like manner, there was
once a time when he would have wondered how Helen ended up with
the Angels of Hell. He spoke to her.
     "It appears Madame, that you were not subjected to a proper
strip search." 
     Helen stood up and slowly walked over to him.  In height she
only came up to his nose.
     "Do you want to do a proper strip search now?" She cooed.
     "Madame," he answered, "if it were entirely up to me I would
leave you here with your friends." He gestured to the pile of
beat-up Barger-babes on the other side of the cell.
     "But," he continued, "I've been directed by the Imperial
authorities to remove you from this planet." 
     Helen's facial expression changed from sweet and seductive
to a focused frown.
     "So," Dennis concluded, "let us not make this situation any
more unpleasant than it has to be."
 
     The second card that Doc drew from the deck was The Fool,
reversed. The card normally depicted a young man and his dog
embarking on a journey of discovery. Reversed, the card meant
that the journey would be fraught with hazards. 

     The police sergeant at the front desk was being difficult.
He was refusing to return the weapons seized from the landing
party. The pistols would have been easy enough to replace, but
replacing the customized Advanced Combat Rifles would have taken
time that Dennis and his crew could ill afford to waste. 
     "Sergeant," Dennis again pulled out and unfolded a sheet of
official Imperial Stationary from his pocket, "what part of this
warrant did you not understand?"
     The desk sergeant originally seemed happy to see Captain
Sterling walk in through the front door of the jail, until the
Captain pulled out a Ducal Warrant and a squad of Marines. 
     "Do I have to read it to you again?"

     Doc drew the third card from the deck.
     It was The Tower.
     "Oh, shit..."

     The Lone Sniper woke up with the taste of mud and plastic in
his mouth. He felt like he was immersed in warm water.
     The last thing that he remembered was his falling from a
radio and navigational light tower at a landing field on the
planet Regina. Fortunately, he fell flat forward into the pool of
muddy water adjacent to the concrete base of the tower.
Unfortunately, the water at the point of impact was only fifteen
centimeters deep.
     The Lone Sniper opened his eyes. He was secured by straps
and surgical tape in an Imperial standard regeneration tank in a
hospital somewhere on Regina.
     This wouldn't be so bad if he was unconscious. 
     Except of course for the fact that patients in the regen
tank aren't supposed to be wide awake.  
     The Lone Sniper couldn't even scream this time.

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:08:02 2002
Subject: JTAS Contest (was: Re: [TML] warship optimization in traveller)
Message-ID: <15003d14e409.14e40915003d@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: David Shayne <daveshayne@ameritech.net>
Date: Friday, August 2, 2002 4:24 am
Subject: Re: [TML] warship optimization in traveller

> > From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
> > Date: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 11:41 pm
> >
> 
> <snip>
> 
> > For JTAS subscribers, the recently-completed starship design 
> > contest (Contest #10) had some excellent hospital ships, albeit 
> > mostly using design sequences other than HG2.  Note, though, 
> that 
> > the winning design (not mine, sad to say) was built using HG2.
> 
> That design would have been mine. And IMHO it wasn't the best 
> design in
> that contest. I won, I believe, because of my shameless 
> misappropriationof 20th century american pop culture icons. (I 
> must have been channeling
> Dave Nilsen)

Just out of curiosity, which one did you vote for?  I was caught up in 
the actual deployment from Ft. Carson to Sinai, so I didn't submit a 
vote, but I probably would have voted for _Sanctuary_, the 300,000 dton 
converted Fleet Support Tanker [*].
> 
> All of which reminds me that I have to firm up the details for the 
> nextdesign contest.

Now that I have relatively reliable Internet access again, I eagerly 
await the next JTAS contest [**].

[*] Actually, I liked my own design best, but I've always viewed voting 
for your own ship in such a contest as gauche.

[**] For those who would like to participate, just go to the 
Starship/Vehicle Design discussion board on JTAS.  Not a subscriber?  
Why not?  It's only $15 US per two years for biweekly issues and access 
to archives, discussion boards and Brubek's chat room.  [And if you 
mention that aurictech referred you, I get a free month added to _my_ 
subscription! ;-)]

http://jtas.sjgames.com/subscribe/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:08:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:08:43 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <11c.14c7f23e.2a7b7e6b@aol.com>
References: <11c.14c7f23e.2a7b7e6b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3it2tkx3r.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
> 
> In reference to the original post that started all this, I don't
> know what else to say, 'cept I'm glad all these true warriors aren't
> in charge of making making major procurement and force deployment
> decisions.

I think a point which many have been trying to make is that those
decisions are made exactly according to such criteria.  Hence the
references to real-life battles and situations.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
If you're a politician, bureaucrat, or cop whose livelihood depends on
the drug war, you're fully as contemptible as any pusher, smuggler, or
cocaine baron--more so, because, unlike them, you profit directly by
destroying what was once the greatest freedom ever known to mankind.
                              --Mirelle Stein, The Productive Class

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] AC-130 losses [was something?]
Message-ID: <3D4ABE97.F32CD2F5@mail.cswnet.com>

I can't remember who wanted this or why, but here goes:

AC-130 losses, Vietnam
3 Aircraft, 52 aircrew
*also, IIRC from dad, 1 aircraft made it back to base but never
flew again.
Most losses from Triple A or SA-7.

AC-130 losses, Gulf War
1 Aircraft, 14 aircrew
Believed to be lost from a SA-16.

AC-130 Somalia operations [Kenya accident]
1 Aircraft, 8 aircrew
Accident; crashed off of Kenya coast.

For further details:
http://www.Spectre-association.org/

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <76.201d4ff6.2a7b1285@aol.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMENMIJAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>


 >>  >They might want more choices besides Dreadnaughts.
 >>
 >> Show me your choices.  I'd love to see 'em.
 >
 >Low-end ships so you can do all your jobs within your budget maybe?

I understand that, but there's the question of what your enemy is doing.
Consider the extreams -- if your goal is to win engagements then you'll want
a few expensive capital ships, but if you want to "do all the jobs" then
you'll want a herd of warm bodies (as it were).  Between the extreams is the
balance -- but where is it?  I think it's way over in the "win engagements"
side.  If you "cover all the bases" with warm bodies but have to flee every
time the heavyweight enemy shows up then what good is that?  There is no
substitute for victory, and to get that victory you need the heavyweights
and
you need more of them than your enemy.

 >Patrol ships and tankers and whatever you plan to escort the talkers with.

If by patrol you mean scouts, then yes.  But if you mean general policing
then I'd think that would be a local police matter and not a fleet matter.
If I'm an admiral at Jewell looking at 1000 Zhodie capital ship in Cronor,
and I hear about some pirates at Enope, I'd have to set priorities and ask
Wochiers to deal with it.  Since imminent war is not a constant threat, if
some patrols were desperately needed by local governments then I'd send some
screening vessels to deal with the problem and then return.

As for tankers (?), if I had any I'd just keep them with the fleet.

>The USN,
>for example, has other ships than carriers or attack subs (whichever you
>consider to be the capital ship). Most navies have some high-end combat
>ships and low-end workhorses.

That's because of real-world issues regarding weapon load capacities, size
vs
speed, air / surface / sub environment requirements, hull-shape
requirements,
and dozens of other factors, make such specialization necessary and
effective.  These issues don't transfer well to a Traveller universe.  In
Traveller everyone can go just as fast as the next guy, they all can carry
the same weapons, there's no limitation on size or hull configuration, and
so
on.  Would you put an Ageis system on a cargo ship?  You can do it in
Traveller, and it works.  Would you put ten inch armor on a destroyer?  You
can do it in Traveller, and it works.  Effective combat ships will all tend
towards the same hull/weapons/defenses configuration, and specialization
will
become mere limitation.

My Spinward Marches Colonial Fleet has supply vessels, hospital ships,
minesweepers, and other stuff in addition to its capital vessels.  But they
are all sideshows, and minor elements of the fleet -- maybe 5% of the total
tonnage.  I intend to win the major engagements first -- I'll clean up any
leftover messes after I win.

Mr. Flykiller

I've been following this debate over ships.

A config 7, dispersed structure, ship has the
highest to hit target of any configuration.
A high agility, high computer size A or less
meson escort is the hardest to hit of any ship.
Other weapons find it hard to hit with as well.
Additionally, is features the lowest hull cost.

A Wombat swarmers is an anti capital ship weapon.
They are realitively inexpensive, has low crew
sizes, and back up computers, bridges and low berths to
increase their staying power.

In game terms a Wombat has a size mod of -1, and agility
of 6 and a computer 9 giving it a to hit mod of
-14 + computer attacking ship (renderinging it unhittable
by anything other then a Meson M meson spinal mountor
better which a T hits on an  10, 11 or 12 , Q-s hit on
11 or 12 and the others only hit on a 12 assuming
a type 9 computer with an allotment of two extra PP levels
to soak up PP hits.  they have a back up level 9 computer
and 30 low berths -- allowing for 3 levels of crew hits.
In Trilion Credit Squadron senerios, they only soak
up one pilot and work on the factor 9 meson gun column.

1	10
2	9
3	7
4	4
5	3
6	6
7	12
8	2
9	11

before any modifactions. Most Capital ships are at least size B
so it is at worst a +1 in any exchange of fire

Interesingly, with the backups and lack of Armour, she has
weapon hits to fear the most -- she has no screens and jump
drives, so spinal weapons are at a disadvantage against it --
only 10 and 12 on pentrating hits are  mission kills on the
radiation table while 8 and 11 are MKs on the Surface explosion
table.  the +6 DM that sub 9 bay/batteries have acually hurt
her more.  PA that can hurt it, at best -- assuming a 9 computer --
need a 10 or better to hit while missiles need a seven
at best

The Wombat is a specialists and can be hurt, but the things that
can hurt it are at a disavantage trying to hit it and things
that can hit it do find it hard to Mission kill it.  Costing
DD price range, they threaten any capital ship scoring weapon
and computer hits through radiation hits and all but Critical and
shattered fuel hits on hits and penetrate and score interior hits.

Ship: Fred
Class: Wombat
Type: Meson Swarmer
Architect: jml
Tech Level: 15

USP
         Es-A706Z92-000000-00090-0 MCr 1,405.500 1 KTons
Bat Bear                      1    Crew: 19
Bat                           1    TL: 15

Cargo: 9.000 Fuel: 300.000 EP: 300.000 Agility: 6
Backups: 1 x Model/9 Computer 1 x Bridge
Substitutions: Z = 30

Architects Fee: MCr 14.055   Cost in Quantity: MCr 1,124.400


Detailed Description

HULL
1,000.000 tons standard, 14,000.000 cubic meters, Dispersed Structure
Configuration

CREW
Pilot, Navigator, 14 Engineers, Medic, 2 Gunners

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 6G Manuever, Power plant-30, 300.000 EP, Agility 6

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/9 Computer
1 Backup Bridge, 1 Model/9 Backup Computer

HARDPOINTS
1 100-ton bay

ARMAMENT
1 100-ton Meson Bay (Factor-9)

DEFENCES
None

CRAFT
None

FUEL
300.000 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
No Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
10.0 Staterooms, 30 Low Berths, 9.000 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 1,419.555 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 14.055), MCr 1,124.400 in
Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
120 Weeks Singly, 96 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <1666ad163c67.163c671666ad@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Date: Friday, August 2, 2002 3:51 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] warship optimization in traveller

> On 1 Aug 2002 at 16:42, Hurrel, Brian wrote:
> 
> > "No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy."
> > 
> > I'm paraphrasing, and can't remember who said this. Maybe 
> Clausewitz(SP?).
> Moltke, IIRC, but it's probably about as old as warfare itself.

FWIW, I recall reading a corollary to this quote:

"No unit ever survived contact with the enemy _without_ a battle plan."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:44:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:44:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CF7@USCHM203>

>The Germans, and
 >particularly the Japanese were horribly dehumanized.  We made our enemies
 >into monsters so then it was OK to exterminate them.

If there was any dehumanizing of the Germans and Japanese, they did it
themselves through their own brutality. 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith Mormon minion of Arioch)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CF7@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <007f01c23a4c$9e46f0d0$6f7ba8c0@kenneith93j41k>

Well actually we did it with our propaganda before we even found out they
were basterds, don't; get me wrong what they did was wrong, but at the time
we chose a path also to get our war machine in motion.
Ken

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comics
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you
http://www.geocities.com/J_Elric_Smith/Index.html
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 1:43 PM
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization


> >The Germans, and
>  >particularly the Japanese were horribly dehumanized.  We made our
enemies
>  >into monsters so then it was OK to exterminate them.
>
> If there was any dehumanizing of the Germans and Japanese, they did it
> themselves through their own brutality.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <004301c23a04$8cdeff60$0112bd50@martinjd>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
 <m3ofclg93m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
 <004301c23a04$8cdeff60$0112bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <m3eldhkv8o.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> writes:
> 
> There are simulator drawbacks--`simulator sickness--which is kind of
> psychosomatic motion sickness, can begin to manifest itself on real
> missions (or cause them to not do certain things because they expect
> sim sickness).

Again, a sufficiently advanced computer (I'm talking about Moore's law
for 2,000 years: capacity increasing by 1.5 every 1.5 years for 2,000
years is a 6.1425e234 increase; by 2 every 2 years is a 1.0715e301
increase) can model sufficiently well that one will experience bad
effects exactly as in real life...

> And they can develop a habit of recklessness since they can't die,
> which is bad if carried over, or sometimes evaporates in a mist of
> nerves because suddenly they CAN.

Granted--I'm not arguing that sims would replace training, but that
basic piloting skills might very well be widespread in the population
due to the prevalence of sims.  That is, much as manipulating a
first-person shooter is pretty much common to 95% of teenage males
today, the basics of piloting a fighter craft might be common to 95%
of teenage males in thefar future.  Thus fighter training might be
much quicker and risk-free than currently, and consequently fighter
pilots might be significantly cheaper.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
What did you do to the cat? It looks half-dead.
                         --Schroedinger's wife

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CF7@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208021045440.12501-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 2 Aug 2002, Hurrel, Brian wrote:

>  >The Germans, and
>  >particularly the Japanese were horribly dehumanized.  We made our enemies
>  >into monsters so then it was OK to exterminate them.
> 
> If there was any dehumanizing of the Germans and Japanese, they did it
> themselves through their own brutality. 

Um, all of them, even the children?

The problem with dehumanization is that it invites things like rape and
torture of noncombatants, and just because one side is doing that does not
mean it's a good idea, or OK, for the other side to do it.

Kiri

**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:53:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:53:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in traveller)
Message-ID: <F244ozCsVINDnKgXhLy00004901@hotmail.com>

Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:
>The US Army did studies in which they discovered that the
>longest that a solider can stay in a combat zone is about
>100 days.  After that, he falls apart.  So the Army began
>rotating units to rest areas so they could recharge a little
>and get roaring drunk and contract VD before going back
>into the line.  It will be harder for the Imperium to do this,
>but I think it would be a priority to establish some sort of
>safe zone for the troops.

It's an old saw that military service is extended periods of
boredom punctuated by short periods of stark terror.  Imagine
if an army used sleeper ships to move their troops around...
soldiers whose military service consisted of sleeping through
the extended periods of boredom, and only being awake for the
periods of stark terror.

That kind of setup might be cheap when it came to starship
life support costs, but I imagine the impact on the soldiers'
psyches would be extreme.

I remember a sci-fi tale of soldiers such as this, warriors
who would sleep for ages and only wake for war, while society
changed around them into unrecognizability...it wasn't
Gordon R. Dickson's _Soldier, Ask Not_, was it?

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (R. Michael Stephens)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in traveller)
References: <F244ozCsVINDnKgXhLy00004901@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D4AC860.5000504@vanderbilt.edu>

Similar effects in Jack Chalker's "Forever War", very fast STL, large 
time dialation effects, and IIRC hibernation.

Walt Smith wrote:
> Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:
> 
>> The US Army did studies in which they discovered that the
>> longest that a solider can stay in a combat zone is about
>> 100 days.  After that, he falls apart.  So the Army began
>> rotating units to rest areas so they could recharge a little
>> and get roaring drunk and contract VD before going back
>> into the line.  It will be harder for the Imperium to do this,
>> but I think it would be a priority to establish some sort of
>> safe zone for the troops.
> 
> 
> It's an old saw that military service is extended periods of
> boredom punctuated by short periods of stark terror.  Imagine
> if an army used sleeper ships to move their troops around...
> soldiers whose military service consisted of sleeping through
> the extended periods of boredom, and only being awake for the
> periods of stark terror.
> 
> That kind of setup might be cheap when it came to starship
> life support costs, but I imagine the impact on the soldiers'
> psyches would be extreme.
> 
> I remember a sci-fi tale of soldiers such as this, warriors
> who would sleep for ages and only wake for war, while society
> changed around them into unrecognizability...it wasn't
> Gordon R. Dickson's _Soldier, Ask Not_, was it?
> 
> Walt Smith
> Firelock on DALNet
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


-- 
--
R. Michael Stephens               Systems Software Specialist
Vanderbilt University         Information Technology Services
Systems Development & Implementation      VUwebmail Developer
Nashville TN.  USA  R.M.Stephens@Vanderbilt.Edu  615.343.8780


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 12:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 11:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208021045440.12501-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <B9701696.6773B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/2/02 10:49 AM, Azalais Malfoy at tiamat@tsoft.com wrote:

>> If there was any dehumanizing of the Germans and Japanese, they did it
>> themselves through their own brutality.
> 
> Um, all of them, even the children?
> 
> The problem with dehumanization is that it invites things like rape and
> torture of noncombatants, and just because one side is doing that does not
> mean it's a good idea, or OK, for the other side to do it.
> 

Just to bring this back to Traveller,  how do the Imperium portray it's
adversaries?  We can probably guess that the Solomani do a bit of
dehumanizing propaganda against their Imperial foe.  How does the Imperium
portray the Zhodani and Solomani to it's citizenry.  And is there an
Imperial Ministry for Propaganda?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 12:11:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fred Ramen)
Date: Fri Aug  2 11:11:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Blowing holes in Japan (was " Re Patton")
Message-ID: <009d01c23a4f$d11f1de0$f42bf7a5@pctframen>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> writes:

"An Allied invasion would have also included the USSR.  There could have
been a Tokyo wall to match the one in Berlin.  Today, Japan could be
struggling to assimilate and rebuild Hokkaido and the northern half of
Honshu, just as the Germans are still trying to deal with the eastern
portions of their recently reunited nation."

My dear Mr. Whipsnade,

Given that without a unified Japan many of the U.S.'s conflicts in Asia
(Korea, Vietnam, guaranteeing the independence of Taiwan) would likely have
been fantastically difficult or impossible, in your alternate scenario the
Tokyo (and perhaps Berlin!) walls might likely still be up! A divided Japan
would have made it almost impossible for the US to prosecute the war in
Korea without the conflict spreading into a general US/Soviet war, for
example.

Fred "Paging Dr. Turtledove" Ramen


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 12:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 11:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
 traveller)
In-Reply-To: <3D4AC860.5000504@vanderbilt.edu>
Message-ID: <B9701A4C.6777A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/2/02 10:58 AM, R. Michael Stephens at Robert.M.Stephens@vanderbilt.edu
wrote:

> Similar effects in Jack Chalker's "Forever War", very fast STL, large
> time dialation effects, and IIRC hibernation.

That's Joe Haldeman's "Forever War"

[snip]
>> 
>> I remember a sci-fi tale of soldiers such as this, warriors
>> who would sleep for ages and only wake for war, while society
>> changed around them into unrecognizability...it wasn't
>> Gordon R. Dickson's _Soldier, Ask Not_, was it?
>> 


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 12:25:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (R. Michael Stephens)
Date: Fri Aug  2 11:25:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in	traveller)
References: <B9701A4C.6777A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D4ACED6.3070507@vanderbilt.edu>

Right.  Thanks.  Aging memory is not a fun thing.

Mike

Tod Glenn wrote:
> on 8/2/02 10:58 AM, R. Michael Stephens at Robert.M.Stephens@vanderbilt.edu
> wrote:
> 
> 
>>Similar effects in Jack Chalker's "Forever War", very fast STL, large
>>time dialation effects, and IIRC hibernation.
> 
> 
> That's Joe Haldeman's "Forever War"
> 
> [snip]
> 
>>>I remember a sci-fi tale of soldiers such as this, warriors
>>>who would sleep for ages and only wake for war, while society
>>>changed around them into unrecognizability...it wasn't
>>>Gordon R. Dickson's _Soldier, Ask Not_, was it?
>>>
>>
> 
> 
> --
> When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.


-- 
--
R. Michael Stephens               Systems Software Specialist
Vanderbilt University         Information Technology Services
Systems Development & Implementation      VUwebmail Developer
Nashville TN.  USA  R.M.Stephens@Vanderbilt.Edu  615.343.8780


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 12:52:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 11:52:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Rowan's Beasts
Message-ID: <3D4AD3D0.CD2C003@mail.cswnet.com>

I've decided to play in the bestiary for a little bit, in part to work
on some pc stuff and to take a break from starships.

Rowan's Beasts, from Supplement 6, Page 13.

I've decided to model these after the Roan Antelope, especially since I
have absolutely no biological/zooalogical experience/training to help
me with a discriptive commentary.

Herbivore/Grazer (4d)
weight: 400kg
hits: 16/9
armor: none
weapons: hooves and horns
wounds: 12
A:4 F:1 S:3

Believed to originate from Terra, Rowans have been transported to a
number of other systems. Its horns are a highly prized hunting trophey,
and it is also used by a number of religous cults as a symbolic figure.
They usually have a brown-grey coat, with black and white head markings
and a black tail. The male horns typically are 40-50cm in length, and
are curved backwards. Females also sport horns, but these are not as
long. Rowan are typically encountered in clear grass land, prairie, and 
savanah type environments. Usually found in herds of 20 and 100
animals, with between 1 to 5 males per group. Typical gestation period
runs between 270-300 days, with one offspring usually resulting. They 
typically have a lifespan of 18 years.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CF9@USCHM203>

> Ken wrote:
[re Germans and Japanese]

>Well actually we did it with our propaganda before we even found out they
>were basterds, don't; get me wrong what they did was wrong, but at the time
>we chose a path also to get our war machine in motion.

You have a point. One of the reasons people were very slow to believe
reports of German atrocities during WWII was because they remembered all the
false propaganda reports of German atrocities during WWI.

Personally, I find it hard to shed many tears for Hiroshima, Nagasaki, or
Dresden. Cold? Maybe. Avoidable or unneccessary? Perhaps in hindsight, but
that's a luxury no one had at the time. 
Do I condone the mass bombing of civilians or celebrate the deaths of
children? No. But as far as I'm concerned the Germans and Japanese were
ultimately responsible for their own destruction.
The Allies also showed much greater restraint than would have been shown us
if the tables were turned. I have no doubt the Axis powers, had they won,
would have gone on a rampage of looting, rape, genocide, and destruction
that would boggle the mind, and luckily remains in the realm of
science-fiction.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CFA@USCHM203>

Kiri wrote:

>Um, all of them, even the children?

No. But children often cannot keep their parents from acting foolishly and
putting them in danger.

Anyway, for the most part, it was not an Allied policy to target
non-combatants. Civilians live near factories, and factories are going to be
bombed. Also, bombers had nowhere near the precision of today's smart
weapons. What took one cruise missile during the gulf war would have taken a
flight of B17s 45 years earlier.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:18:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:18:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller HIDING
Message-ID: <F96dOgl4rhYQYx3G5aY00000042@hotmail.com>

Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:
<snip Flykiller's comments>
>
>Uncalled for.

To be fair, I was in the process of descending down to his
level, and I had a few uncalled for comments myself.

I am *not* interested in undertaking a contest with Flykiller,
and he is welcome to think of it what he will.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Carolyn & Royce)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <3D4B28F8.948.FD2916@localhost>
Message-ID: <007101c23a5b$5a5d63e0$6f142c42@roycereiss>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 8:51 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] warship optimization in traveller


On 1 Aug 2002 at 16:42, Hurrel, Brian wrote:

> "No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy."
>
> I'm paraphrasing, and can't remember who said this. Maybe Clausewitz(SP?).

Moltke, IIRC, but it's probably about as old as warfare itself.

--
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

I prefer the follow from Moltke the Elder
"Plans are nothing,  planning is everything"

Roy


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net><m3ofclg93m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org><004301c23a04$8cdeff60$0112bd50@martinjd> <m3eldhkv8o.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <00aa01c23a5c$4f293ca0$5d0bbd50@martinjd>

> "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> writes:
> >
> > There are simulator drawbacks--`simulator sickness--which is kind of
> > psychosomatic motion sickness, can begin to manifest itself on real
> > missions (or cause them to not do certain things because they expect
> > sim sickness).
>
> Again, a sufficiently advanced computer (I'm talking about Moore's law
> for 2,000 years: capacity increasing by 1.5 every 1.5 years for 2,000
> years is a 6.1425e234 increase; by 2 every 2 years is a 1.0715e301
> increase) can model sufficiently well that one will experience bad
> effects exactly as in real life...

Okay, if you can manage to simulate g stress and all the other stuff too,
then my comment above doesn't apply. If not, it does. You need more than an
amazing computer for this. Which translates to "again, I don't believe in
perfect simulators".

>
> > And they can develop a habit of recklessness since they can't die,
> > which is bad if carried over, or sometimes evaporates in a mist of
> > nerves because suddenly they CAN.
>
> Granted--I'm not arguing that sims would replace training, but that
> basic piloting skills might very well be widespread in the population
> due to the prevalence of sims.  That is, much as manipulating a
> first-person shooter is pretty much common to 95% of teenage males
> today, the basics of piloting a fighter craft might be common to 95%
> of teenage males in thefar future.  Thus fighter training might be
> much quicker and risk-free than currently, and consequently fighter
> pilots might be significantly cheaper.

Or society will be full of people who think they can flyb fighters, who
think they understand fuighter tactics, and who think they don't have to
listen to the instructors. I get this all the time teaching self-defense to
young men who think they know how to punch. They don't listen and don't get
any better. This actually means that the "human wave" attack might be
plausible. It'sd all you can do with these people. The French Revolutionary
army had a similar problem when it tries to turn the victorious volunteers
into a real army with discipline and manuever capability.





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:29:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:29:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMENMIJAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <00ab01c23a5c$506fc660$5d0bbd50@martinjd>

> Ship: Fred
> Class: Wombat
> Type: Meson Swarmer
> Architect: jml
> Tech Level: 15

These are nice. I notice that they're not fighters.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:30:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:30:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <200208021543.g72Fhlw12656@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <00af01c23a5c$51d040c0$5d0bbd50@martinjd>

> >counter them. Or if they could carry enough fighters to scrub a decent
light
> >cruiser before it closed and killed the carrier. Or....
>
>   Sadly, HG2 doesn't allow those sorts of complications, but
> any of the hex-based Trav games make riders/carriers _much_
> less attractive for precisely that reason.
>

Agreed. This is why I believe that HG/TCS alone do not present a framework
for creating a believable starfaring navy.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:31:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:31:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
References: <3D4B49A4.30448.6221A7B@localhost>
Message-ID: <00b101c23a5c$5444ea40$5d0bbd50@martinjd>

> On 2 Aug 2002, at 10:14, Cheng Tseng wrote:
>
> > Were they?  I do not remember any FAA torpedo squadrons involved, and
the only
> > torpedo squadron the RAF's Coastal Command had in England (The rest were
in
> > the Med.) had Beauforts, if I remember correctly.
>
> #825 Sqd, Lt Cmdr Esmonde led six Swordfish against the Scharnhorst,
> Gneisenau and Prinz Eugen with their escorts and heavy fighter cover. All
> six were shot down and only by a miracle did 5 of the 18 crew survive. Lt
> Cmdr Esmonde received the FAA's first VC for the attack.

One of my obscurely related uncles was killed in the Channel Dash, attacking
the Scharnhorst in a torpedo boat. Never got anywhere near, but his widow
went to Buckingham Palace to collect the medal they awarded for making the
attempt.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:31:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:31:44 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <3D4B24F2.20758.ED70D3@localhost>
Message-ID: <00b201c23a5c$554ff1a0$5d0bbd50@martinjd>

>
> > IE Units will NOT enter routine combat situations where they know
> > they will be massacred.
>
> I think it depends a lot on the chances of success and the value the
> soldier (or pilots, or whatevers) place on that success.

Yes, hence my use of the word "routine". Critical situations (or good
manipulation by morale experts) will be different.

>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <200208021928.LXQ00226@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Douglas E. Berry" says
>Doesn't stop the flow of volunteers.

Me! Me! Pick me!
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:33:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:33:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Meduim Navies
Message-ID: <200208021932.LXR00217@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Roseberry says
<snip cool stuff on small navies>
I've wanted to do something on that scale for a PBEM, with 
the players doing their TCS thing with some politics and with 
the GM resolving battles and doing a CNN-like news.

________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in traveller)
Message-ID: <200208021936.LXR00684@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"R. Michael Stephens" says
>Similar effects in Jack Chalker's "Forever War", very fast 
>STL, large time dialation effects, and IIRC hibernation.

Ahem.. Joe Haldeman...
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <200208021939.LXR00993@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"MJ Dougherty" says
>These are nice. I notice that they're not fighters.
>

I'll repeat myself.  Using the small fleet concept that 
Roseberry posted earlier, I would be interested in running a 
TL 12 PBEM.

Then we could find out through politics what other players 
(representing their governments) think of things like 
planetary bombardment, prisoner exchange, trade embargos, 
blockades, etc.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
References: <20020802062003.11635.24330.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <eimkkukp9lm8iv0tjm0iu5gvjaoi5j6oov@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <3D4ADFBF.8030303@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Jeff Zeitlin wrote:

> 
> I refuse to believe that they _want_ a city that is so badly mismanaged
> that Congress was ready to take away what autonomy they had.

Well, a large part of the problems in DC has been the fact that they 
have generally had 565 masters to please...

565 rather stingy masters, at that, who didn't live or work in the city 
that the DC authorites had to police...only their nannies, garbage men 
and maids lived *there*.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:52:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:52:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <8d.1bfa1383.2a7a4253@aol.com> <3.0.5.16.20020802094239.36dff48c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3D4AE2D3.9080101@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> Hell, as a sniper I was considered to be a highly-skilled soldier (not
> cannon-fodder) and was expected to do insane things that were extremely
> dangerous and most often fatal.  Snipers are rarely taken prisoner.  Enemy
> troops tend to kill them when they are caught.  Doesn't stop the flow of
> volunteers.

Except, of course, you knew, deep down, *you* were good enough to 
survive, and get away without being caught. It was the other guy, the 
one who made mistakes, and had bad luck, who got captured and killed, 
not you. You were *good* dammit, you were a Ranger! Hooah!

I think this is the crucial element we're overlooking in this debate.

At one point during WWII the survival rates of US aviator pilits was not 
*much* better than kamakazi's. The crucial element is that they believed 
that their survival was ultimately influenced by their actions and 
abilities and their omnipresent good luck.

This goes for all of the 'suicide' missions like U-boat crews, our own 
submarine crews, and aviators. It's not a coincidence that submariners 
are usually considered the most fanatically superstious of all armed 
forces personnel.

When it becomes clear that no matter *what* you do, you're going to die, 
attitudes change.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in traveller)
References: <200208021936.LXR00684@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D4AE3B5.9050704@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

The original story about the soldiers being woken up for combat sounds 
quite a bit like the movie 'Universal Soldier', which, iirc, was based 
on a P.K. Dick short story or novella.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:57:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:57:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <00ab01c23a5c$506fc660$5d0bbd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHKEOJIJAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

> Ship: Fred
> Class: Wombat
> Type: Meson Swarmer
> Architect: jml
> Tech Level: 15

These are nice. I notice that they're not fighters.

_______________________________________________

Nope, High end SDB's or low end monitors IMO
They were a possible take on that survival thingy.

jml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in traveller)
Message-ID: <F91b7ENl92BgHK61Aca000250e0@hotmail.com>

R. Michael Stephens <Robert.M.Stephens@vanderbilt.edu> wrote:
>Similar effects in Jack Chalker's "Forever War", very fast STL, large
>time dialation effects, and IIRC hibernation.

Similar, but I think Haldeman's _Forever War_ was more about
isolation from society than concentrated warfare experience.
A soldier in Haldeman's book might spend a year (subjective)
sitting in boredom, then a week fighting for his or her life.
The society he or she is fighting for might have had two hundred
years pass while the troopship was flying for a subjective year,
but at least the soldier had some down time.

With "freezer pop" soldiers, you might have people who wake
up, fight to the death for a week, then go back to sleep
until the next fight to the death crops up. No down time,
no ability to process what happened before it all starts
again.  Imagine the post-war condition of the average US
WW2 soldier if his entire tour of duty had lasted only
(a subjective) three months, but each and every (subjective)
day had as much violence as the Normandy landings?

The extreme version (from the sf story that might be _Soldier,
Ask Not_) would give these troopers social isolation problems
as well (they get woken up for a week or so every couple of
centuries), but even the lesser version you'd see in a Traveller
setting could be hard on human minds.

Forever War was a helluva book, btw.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Blowing holes in Japan (was " Re Patton")
References: <009d01c23a4f$d11f1de0$f42bf7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <3D4AE539.2070603@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Fred Ramen wrote:

 > A divided Japan
> would have made it almost impossible for the US to prosecute the war in
> Korea without the conflict spreading into a general US/Soviet war, for
> example.

Well, I don't think this is all that likely. Uncle Joe did NOT want a 
generalized US/Soviet war at the time of the Korean conflict, whetehr or 
not they held part of Japan, or else it would have happened.

As it was, Stalin refused Mao's and Jong's requests for materiel and 
men, including nuclear weapons, and the few Russians involved in the 
conflict were extremely circumspect, and confined mainly to some higher 
level advisers to the Chinese advisers and command, and as pilots, 
initially for the Mig-15 and Yak-17 (iirc) jet fighters, and then only 
until China had sufficient trained personell to fly 'em.

(and, not coincidentally, the Russians had a good understanding of their 
performance against American jet aircraft, as well...)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:05:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:05:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonabo Class Missile Frigate
Message-ID: <19e.64fcc68.2a7c3fb5@aol.com>

 >Ship: Bonabo
 >Class: Bonabo
 >Type: Missile Frigate
 >Architect: Alan Bradley
 >Tech Level: 15
 >
 >USP
 >         FM-A156892-000000-00009-0 MCr 1,196.140 1.5 KTons
 >Bat Bear                       1   Crew: 24
 >Bat                            1   TL: 15
 >
 >Cargo: 2.000 Fuel: 870.000 EP: 120.000 Agility: 6 Shipboard Security Detail:
 >2
 >Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

No armor?  No low berths?  No medical facilities?  No lifeboat?  No cargo 
supplies?  Well, at least it seems to have extra crewmen -- if you can get 
anyone to sign up.  If I were the referee I'd give this boat an endurance of 
1 - 2 months max.

 >In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships.

Yes, in sufficient numbers, and if the capital ships are poorly designed and 
employed.  But credit for credit you'll never get the numbers sufficient to 
do so.  Meanwhile with no armor these ships will be dropping like flies.  I 
think what you have here is not a line-of-battle ship, but a raider that 
needs work.  Give it some more endurance and it would do fine in that roll.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:14:02 2002
Subject: JTAS Contest (was: Re: [TML] warship optimization in traveller)
References: <20020802182504.13132.61928.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D4AE7C4.85DCBD6E@ameritech.net>

> Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 20:07:38 +0300
> From: john.groth@us.army.mil

<snip>

> Just out of curiosity, which one did you vote for? 

The 300-ton Maraaki-class Medical Ship. I liked the mission description
for this ship. Plus it's a nice PC sized ship.

> I was caught up in
> the actual deployment from Ft. Carson to Sinai, so I didn't submit a
> vote, but I probably would have voted for _Sanctuary_, the 300,000 
> dton converted Fleet Support Tanker [*].

I considered this but decided it was too big a ship for most situations. 

<snip>

> [*] Actually, I liked my own design best, but I've always viewed 
> voting for your own ship in such a contest as gauche.

Well same here. Though in this instatnce I really didn't think my ship
was the best in the running. Maybe I need to send my ego in for
refurbishing. :)

> 
> [**] For those who would like to participate, just go to the
> Starship/Vehicle Design discussion board on JTAS.  Not a subscriber?
> Why not?  It's only $15 US per two years for biweekly issues and access
> to archives, discussion boards and Brubek's chat room.  [And if you
> mention that aurictech referred you, I get a free month added to _my_
> subscription! ;-)]

Ignore this blatant self promotion and tell them davidshayne sent you.

:)
 
> http://jtas.sjgames.com/subscribe/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
 traveller)
In-Reply-To: <3D4AC860.5000504@vanderbilt.edu>
References: <F244ozCsVINDnKgXhLy00004901@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020802151624.00a90e00@minn.net>

"R. Michael Stephens" <Robert.M.Stephens@vanderbilt.edu> wrote:
>Similar effects in Jack Chalker's "Forever War", very fast STL, large 
>time dialation effects, and IIRC hibernation.

>> I remember a sci-fi tale of soldiers such as this, warriors
>> who would sleep for ages and only wake for war, while society
>> changed around them into unrecognizability...it wasn't
>> Gordon R. Dickson's _Soldier, Ask Not_, was it?
>> 
>> Walt Smith
>> Firelock on DALNet

The Forever War by Joe Haldeman. He was a grunt in Vietnam.

Read it in high school.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <20020802101235.98a3bb14da2249719a2c69a0b3078a17.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <3D4B91FA.12531.2C8155@localhost>

On 2 Aug 2002 at 10:14, Cheng Tseng wrote:

> Were they?  I do not remember any FAA torpedo squadrons involved, and the
> only torpedo squadron the RAF's Coastal Command had in England (The rest
> were in the Med.) had Beauforts, if I remember correctly.

I'm fairly sure they were (ie my source is miles away and I can't 
check). They were mentioned in a history of the Beauforts' WWII 
experiences as being there.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:20:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:20:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <20020802102615.30aca70d97e74ef18326726c229541ca.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <3D4B91FA.13395.2C819C@localhost>

On 2 Aug 2002 at 10:28, Cheng Tseng wrote:

> Well, it would have greatly improved the British chances of attacking the
> German ships if it did not take until just before the Germans were passing
> the Straits of Dover to even know they were at sea.  At least then, the
> Brits could have had time to assemble an all-out attack instead of send the
> aircrafts in dribbles and drabs which allowed the Luftwaffe to kill them.
> One of Adolf Galland's finer moments, providing air cover for the cruisers.

Yep. It also helped that somewhere in the British communications chain 
they transformed from 30,000 ton battlecruisers at 30 knots to 20,000 
ton merchants at 20 knots, so the British pilots were all firing their 
torpedos with their sights set incorrectly.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:21:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:21:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMENMIJAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
References: <76.201d4ff6.2a7b1285@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B91FA.31831.2C81F6@localhost>

On 2 Aug 2002 at 9:23, John-Martin wrote:

> A config 7, dispersed structure, ship has the
> highest to hit target of any configuration.
> A high agility, high computer size A or less
> meson escort is the hardest to hit of any ship.
> Other weapons find it hard to hit with as well.
> Additionally, is features the lowest hull cost.
> 
> A Wombat swarmers is an anti capital ship weapon.
> They are realitively inexpensive, has low crew
> sizes, and back up computers, bridges and low berths to
> increase their staying power.
> 
> In game terms a Wombat has a size mod of -1, and agility
> of 6 and a computer 9 giving it a to hit mod of
> -14 + computer attacking ship (renderinging it unhittable
> by anything other then a Meson M meson spinal mountor
> better which a T hits on an  10, 11 or 12 , Q-s hit on
> 11 or 12 and the others only hit on a 12 assuming
> a type 9 computer with an allotment of two extra PP levels
> to soak up PP hits.  they have a back up level 9 computer
> and 30 low berths -- allowing for 3 levels of crew hits.
> In Trilion Credit Squadron senerios, they only soak
> up one pilot and work on the factor 9 meson gun column.
> 
> 1	10
> 2	9
> 3	7
> 4	4
> 5	3
> 6	6
> 7	12
> 8	2
> 9	11
> 
> before any modifactions. Most Capital ships are at least size B
> so it is at worst a +1 in any exchange of fire
> 
> Interesingly, with the backups and lack of Armour, she has
> weapon hits to fear the most -- she has no screens and jump
> drives, so spinal weapons are at a disadvantage against it --
> only 10 and 12 on pentrating hits are  mission kills on the
> radiation table while 8 and 11 are MKs on the Surface explosion
> table.  the +6 DM that sub 9 bay/batteries have acually hurt
> her more.  PA that can hurt it, at best -- assuming a 9 computer --
> need a 10 or better to hit while missiles need a seven
> at best

I'm not sure I follow this bit, and I think some of your numbers are a 
little off, too. How's it stack up to cruisers with (relatively) light 
spinal PAWS?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:23:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:23:12 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <177.c580aa7.2a7c4378@aol.com>

 >>> I bet that fighting hole full of cold rainwater I stepped
 >>> into near LZ Aardvark was put there by Doug.  Thanks, Doug.
 >
 >Only the best for my friends!  And he, I walked into my fair share of those.

My reserve unit was practicing out at an old guard facility.  I was running 
hard across a field with waist-high brush towards a large bush.  I made it to 
the bush and hurtled straight into an old fighting hole.  I slammed into the 
far side, bounced back against the near side, and wound up in a twisted 
tangle six feet down.  I never even saw the hole until I was at the bottom.

When I finally recovered and climbed out, everyone else had gone back to camp 
for dinner.  That was kind of disappointing.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Baboon Class Missile Frigate CREWS
Message-ID: <1ba.43235ef.2a7c49b7@aol.com>

 >>The Baboon Class Missile Frigate is a lightly equipped patrol/escort 
vehicle.
 >>
 >>In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships.
 >
 >  <QUIBBLE> Not really? By TL E or F dampers make these ships just
 >too inefficient, IIRC?

They are too inefficient to kill, yes.  But they can still be a royal pain in 
the ass.  In the end though capital ships can kill them but they can't kill 
capital ships.  Eventually they run out of missiles.

I think the big problem with this kind of boat is not their inefficiency, but 
their crews.  It would be hard enough to get competent and willing captains, 
pilots, and engineers with the necessary decades of experience for a few 
heavily armed and armored capital ships that have adequate living space and 
support cargo.  Finding thousands of deployable captains, pilots, and 
engineers who would be willing to live and fight in barely-adequate 
Volkswagens (as it were) would be a major problem.  I think this difficulty 
should be reflected in their skill levels.  I know TCS specifically and 
categorically states otherwise, but I think this issue is just too big and 
reasonable to so breezily ignore it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fred Ramen)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Blowing holes in Japan (was " Re Patton")
Message-ID: <00d901c23a66$05486160$4a2bf7a5@pctframen>

I wrote:

 > A divided Japan
> would have made it almost impossible for the US to prosecute the war in
> Korea without the conflict spreading into a general US/Soviet war, for
> example.

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

"Well, I don't think this is all that likely. Uncle Joe did NOT want a
generalized US/Soviet war at the time of the Korean conflict, whetehr or
not they held part of Japan, or else it would have happened. <snip>"

Oh, I agree that the Stalin didn't want to expand the conflict any more than
Truman did. My point was merely that it would have been extremely unlikely
for the Soviets to allow a divided Japan (as posited in Mr. Whipsnade's
original post) to be used as a staging area for American intervention in
Korea (or Vietnam, for that matter).

Of course, I may be overstating the importance of Japan to US Pacific
security, and am quite open to being corrected in this regard.

Fred Ramen


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 15:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 14:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <112.1523c9f7.2a7c50e1@aol.com>

 >In the active service I've know many fine female sailors who were competent
 >technicians and fine seaman. And more than a few who were more competent
 >leaders than many of the critics who bemoaned the posting of woman to ships.

I've seen a handful.  Offsetting this, I've seen companies where every single 
corporal  and several sergeants get busted down for sex with the female 
privates.  I've seen active duty females refuse orders to perform physical 
tasks (like dumping trash cans) and tell sergeants to their face to "get a 
male to do it".  I've seen females who cannot, and I mean cannot, pass their 
limited physical fitness tests, who can't do  even seven pushups, but who 
still remain in units.  I've seen females who cannot climb the ladder from 
the shaft alley to the second deck and who have to be helped.  I've seen 
females finish their expensive training and then promptly be discharged 
because they're pregnant.

Whatever benefits they bring I think are outweighed by the negatives.  I'd 
dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their 
traditional roles of nurse and clerk.  If the US military is so hard-up for 
warm bodies that it really needs females, then I say reinstitute the WACS and 
WAVES and whatever else, with their own standards and their own chain of 
command, and put them in charge of stateside facilities like hospitals and 
supply depots and personnel offices so men are freed up for more forward 
duties.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 15:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Fri Aug  2 14:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <112.1523c9f7.2a7c50e1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208021425040.5733-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 2 Aug 2002 Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> Whatever benefits they bring I think are outweighed by the negatives.  I'd 
> dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their 
> traditional roles of nurse and clerk.  If the US military is so hard-up for 
> warm bodies that it really needs females, then I say reinstitute the WACS and 
> WAVES and whatever else, with their own standards and their own chain of 
> command, and put them in charge of stateside facilities like hospitals and 
> supply depots and personnel offices so men are freed up for more forward 
> duties.

I've been trying to decide whether or not to killfile you for a while--
thanks for helping me out.
**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 15:26:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Fri Aug  2 14:26:43 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <3D4B05EA.8754.5198B91@localhost>
Message-ID: <000001c23a6b$4f795aa0$6501a8c0@Darla>

> However in a fighter you probably are
> all alone, the nearest friendly is tens of kilometers away and there's
> nobody to see if you stand as a "hero" or run as a "coward".
> 
> Personally I don't think the massed fighter approach works over the
long
> term due to the cost in highly trained crew. However, I can well see
it
> being
> not that uncommon, especially when one side feels desperate.
> 

I can't agree that the isolation of the cockpit would do that.  I've
worked with a lot of RL fighter pilots, both Air Force and Navy, and for
the most part they would rather die than look bad, ESPECIALLY in front
of the rest of the squadron.

TWB


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 15:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Fri Aug  2 14:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CF9@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <000001c23a6d$ab25c260$6501a8c0@Darla>

> if the tables were turned. I have no doubt the Axis powers, had they
won,
> would have gone on a rampage of looting, rape, genocide, and
destruction
> that would boggle the mind, and luckily remains in the realm of
> science-fiction.

In fact, the Axis powers DID go on a rampage of looting, rape, genocide
and destruction.  That is why they had to be stopped.

TWB


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 15:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug  2 14:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CF9@USCHM203>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CF9@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <m3fzxxj5gp.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> writes:
> 
> Personally, I find it hard to shed many tears for Hiroshima,
> Nagasaki, or Dresden.

I dunno--the firebombing of Dresden is IMHO one of the worst war
crimes committed by the US.  Esp. the bit about destroying emergency
vehicles...

That no-one was ever strung up for it is a travesty.  We're supposed
to be better than that.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The betterment of fools, Goethe tells us, is the appropriate business of
other fools.  The Underground Grammarian does not seek to educate
anyone.  We intend rather to ridicule, humiliate, and infuriate those
who abuse our language not so that they will do better but so that they
will stop using language entirely or at least go away.
                         --The Underground Grammarian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 15:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dave Strebe)
Date: Fri Aug  2 14:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208021425040.5733-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <02Aug2.151432pdt.119054@gw.city.vancouver.bc.ca>

> On Fri, 2 Aug 2002 Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

<SNIP>

> I've been trying to decide whether or not to killfile you for a while--
> thanks for helping me out.

 Moi aussi.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 15:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug  2 14:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <00aa01c23a5c$4f293ca0$5d0bbd50@martinjd>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
 <m3ofclg93m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
 <004301c23a04$8cdeff60$0112bd50@martinjd>
 <m3eldhkv8o.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
 <00aa01c23a5c$4f293ca0$5d0bbd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <m3bs8lj5c2.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> writes:
>
> > > There are simulator drawbacks--`simulator sickness--which is
> > > kind of psychosomatic motion sickness, can begin to manifest
> > > itself on real missions (or cause them to not do certain things
> > > because they expect sim sickness).
> >
> > Again, a sufficiently advanced computer (I'm talking about Moore's
> > law for 2,000 years: capacity increasing by 1.5 every 1.5 years
> > for 2,000 years is a 6.1425e234 increase; by 2 every 2 years is a
> > 1.0715e301 increase) can model sufficiently well that one will
> > experience bad effects exactly as in real life...
> 
> Okay, if you can manage to simulate g stress and all the other stuff
> too, then my comment above doesn't apply.  If not, it does. You need
> more than an amazing computer for this.  Which translates to again,
> I don't believe in perfect simulators.'

Well, if you can damp inertia and can create artificial gravity, I'm
pretty certain that you can fake high-g effects (or rather, create
them).  I don't think that the physics would necessarily be all that
difficult; trivial, probably, for a society which has those things.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
When the water of a place is bad it is safest to drink none that has not
been filtered through either the berry of a grape, or else a tub of malt.
These are the most reliable filters yet invented.        --Samuel Butler

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <m3ofclg93m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <000001c23a70$28580340$6501a8c0@Darla>

> 
> You really think that a computer can be powerful enough to simulate
> all that and yet not have safeguards to prevent death?  I would
> imagine that it'd be just like a modern simulator: screw up and you
> get the `shatter screen.'
> 
> Although it could also be used to give you a nasty shock or something
> every time you screw up...
> 

Not necessarily.  I was working on an F-15 trainer a few years ago and
stepped out of the seat to reach a terminal while leaving the aircraft
"in flight".  It took a bit longer that I thought it would, and the
uncontrolled simulated jet ended up impacting the "earth" at Mach
1.something.  

The control loader on the stick modeled stick forces due to the
accelerations of the aircraft, so in response to the massive g-loading
of the crash, drove the stick violently aft.  It is my good fortune that
I was not in the way of the stick when it drove aft, since it hit the
stops hard enough to snap a stainless steel cable in the control loader.


Needless to say, we added some safety limits in this area before the
trainer got delivered.

Tom Barnes


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <3D4B91FA.31831.2C81F6@localhost>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHGEPBIJAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

I'm not sure I follow this bit, and I think some of your numbers are a 
little off, too. How's it stack up to cruisers with (relatively) light 
spinal PAWS?

-- 
>>>>>>>>>>>>
One would need numbers but add 7 (agility 6 + 1 [size modifier for 
size A]) plus the difference in computer rating and the PAW to hit 
number to arrive at the number you have to roll higher then to hit.  

At best you hit one Wombat a bit worse then half the time, at worst you 
need a ten or better.  

Anyway, once you hit, you only get the first twelve hit types to play
with being a spinal mount. The Wombat carries 3 crew replacements, has
an extra computer and bridge.  It lacks a jump drive and screens 
and keeps its agility for 2 PP factor losses.  Fuel tank shattered and
weapons hits are your only mission kills.  Power Plant hit beyond 2
still leave the Wombat functional, it looses agility.  It takes 8 PP hits
to render the Meson gun un-operational

Fire the other way depends on the other ship,  Knock off nine for the 
computer.    Target numbers and damage table modifier depend on the target.

Please recall, this is not an uber weapon, it is a niche ship.  However it
is a surprisingly survivable one considering it costs about as much as the
main gun of a capital ship and displaces 1000 tons.  As SDB's these would
be extremely effective and carried as a rider, I see this as a very useful
mason artillery support platform or em mass to bulldog battlewagons.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
Message-ID: <151.11d787f6.2a7c5dcb@aol.com>

 > >Also, does a crippled fighter neccessarily mean dead crewman?
 >
 > using ct tables, a factor 9 salvo against a 90 ton fighter results in 9
 > critical hits, of which a roll of 2 or 10 ( 1/36 + 3/36 ) represent 
immediate
 > crew death (we'll ignore the presence or absence of rescue vessels, the
 > consequences to a pilot of loss of power in his ship, etc).  this results 
in
 > a ( 1 - ( 32 / 36 ) ^ 9 ) or a 65.4% chance of crew death upon being hit.  
I
 > don't know what typical fighter-pilot survival rates are, but I'll bet 
that's
 > comparable to those of japanese zero's in ww2.

 >The pilot casualty rates you quote above are much too high, IMHO.  They are 
only
 >true if the attacker is using TL15 100-ton meson gun bays or if the fighter 
is
 >unarmored.

In CT HG TL15 100-ton meson guns cannot hit fighters except at short range, 
and then only on 12+.  I wasn't considering meson guns, they're worthless 
against fighters.

A 90-ton CT HG TL15 fighter will have militarily-insignifcant armor.  90 
tons, -18 tons bridge, -15.3 tons maneuver 6, -1 PMS turret, -13 model 9 
computer, -18.4 power plant, -18.4 power plant fuel, -2 crew cabin, -1 
missile magazine, leaves 2.9.  Assuming no low berths, cargo, air lock, or 
other housekeeping / survival aids for the crew then 2.9 tons will support 
armor 2, which will remove the effects of one automatic critical hit.  Final 
crew death rate from automatic critical hits will be ( 1 - ( 32/36 ) ^ 8 ) 
for a total of 61.0%.  This does not count the normal damage from the hit, 
3/36 of which will be interior explosions or critical hits.  You can do the 
math for those.

IMTU computers are a normal part of bridge equipment, and do not consume 
space or energy, so my fighters _do_ have armor 15.  But no-one else seems to 
do this.

 >Fighters IMTU carry maximum armor.  This would reduce the non-meson crits 
 >listed above from 9 to 2, with a corresponding increase in crew survival.

Yes, it does -- but then you're not using CT HG, which is what I was talking 
about.  Or, if you are, then the fighters will either have ineffective 
computers or be severely slow, either of which will leave them vulnerable to 
rapid incapacitation.

 >I agree that a sub-100dT fighter cannot carry a weapon which can hurt a TL15
 >capital ship, mostly because of the difference in computer size.  This is 
why the
 >"fighters" in the smoke test were actually 1000dT boats with factor-9 
missile
 >bays.

Your fighters were 1000 tons?!!

I think we need standardization of terms.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
Message-ID: <a4.29dd5f76.2a7c5f34@aol.com>

 >>> including not commenting on how a
 >>> Washington police officer can be hired with felony convictions on his/her
 >>> record, provided that none were more recent than ten years ago at the 
time
 >>> of application.
 >> 
 >> Well, to be fair, if they didn't follow this hiring policy then could they
 >> find anyone to hire?
 >
 >But they couldn't carry a gun.  They'd be a prohibited person under Federal
 >law, unless they had filed for and received a 'relief from disability' from
 >the ATF.  And congress has stopped funding this program, so none are being
 >done.

That's a problem only if you intend to enforce the law.  Since it's not a 
problem for them then the conclusion to be drawn is obvious.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <d1.1c449e1a.2a7c6094@aol.com>

 >  As an aside, why are you not discussing the frigates that you 
 >had posited as the sole class of warship in the post to which I
 >was responding?

Because the question dealt specifically with capital ship viability.  It was 
late, I just latched onto fighters and did the math.  You can do the same 
math for the frigates if you like.  Capital ships will do better against the 
frigates, but they'll still lose fairly badly.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] max hull size
Message-ID: <ff.1ba47012.2a7c6111@aol.com>

 >Again, I'm assuming CT.  Let's see .... at tech 12, max hull size is 
199,999 
 
   <1 MT (USP X) per HG2, pps. 26 & 28.

Sorry -- CT HG.  I don't know what HG2 does.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <20020802224421.60004.qmail@web20414.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>

>"John T. Kwon" wrote:
>
>>I think I see a pattern here...
>>
>>long time Traveller player...
>>joins the military (some of us wished we did)...

[deletion]

>After "mustering out", I spent alot of time doing the usual PC
thing,
>hanging around in pubs looking for something exciting to do.
>
>SPOILER ALERT
[deletion]
>Unfortunately, though I met many fascinating (and in some cases 
>possibly alien) characters, I was never asked to rescue a senator
>from an Imperial prison hulk, reunite a Chirper with his siblings, 

Well, I never joined the military, but I did work for the Post Office
one summer, and I have on many occasions in my career as a lawyer
travelled with a team of variously normal, neurotic, and psychotic
professionals to exotic, distant cities (like Denver and Minneapolis)
to review documents in conference rooms, or to interrogate witnesses
in conference rooms.  It's been an exciting life.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net><m3ofclg93m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org><004301c23a04$8cdeff60$0112bd50@martinjd><m3eldhkv8o.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org><00aa01c23a5c$4f293ca0$5d0bbd50@martinjd> <m3bs8lj5c2.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <012601c23a78$2c1d4f00$5d0bbd50@martinjd>

>
> Well, if you can damp inertia and can create artificial gravity, I'm
> pretty certain that you can fake high-g effects (or rather, create
> them).  I don't think that the physics would necessarily be all that
> difficult; trivial, probably, for a society which has those things.
>

If you can do these things, then simulator problems I've outlined are
greatly diminished (most of them). I don't imagine this sort of thing is
available for $35 in a playstation game, though.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208021425040.5733-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <013101c23a78$5f05d720$5d0bbd50@martinjd>

>
> > Whatever benefits they bring I think are outweighed by the negatives.
I'd
> > dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their
> > traditional roles of nurse and clerk.  If the US military is so hard-up
for
> > warm bodies that it really needs females, then I say reinstitute the
WACS and
> > WAVES and whatever else, with their own standards and their own chain of
> > command, and put them in charge of stateside facilities like hospitals
and
> > supply depots and personnel offices so men are freed up for more forward
> > duties.


Such sweeping prejudice. I am impressed.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <112.1523c9f7.2a7c50e1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <014a01c23a78$a159d220$5d0bbd50@martinjd>

>
> I've seen a handful.  Offsetting this, I've seen companies where every
single
> corporal  and several sergeants get busted down for sex with the female
> privates.  I've seen active duty females refuse orders to perform physical
> tasks (like dumping trash cans) and tell sergeants to their face to "get a
> male to do it".  I've seen females who cannot, and I mean cannot, pass
their
> limited physical fitness tests, who can't do  even seven pushups, but who
> still remain in units.  I've seen females who cannot climb the ladder from
> the shaft alley to the second deck and who have to be helped.  I've seen
> females finish their expensive training and then promptly be discharged
> because they're pregnant.

Yeah, and I've seen human beings who were skilled and competent and
determined and motivated and just plain better than me being kept down
because they were born female. You can't damn half the human race on a
generality.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in travell
Message-ID: <memo.561258@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <F244ozCsVINDnKgXhLy00004901@hotmail.com>
> >The US Army did studies in which they discovered that the
> >longest that a solider can stay in a combat zone is about
> >100 days.  After that, he falls apart.  So the Army began
> >rotating units to rest areas so they could recharge a little
> >and get roaring drunk and contract VD before going back
> >into the line.  It will be harder for the Imperium to do this,
> >but I think it would be a priority to establish some sort of
> >safe zone for the troops.
> 
> It's an old saw that military service is extended periods of
> boredom punctuated by short periods of stark terror.  Imagine
> if an army used sleeper ships to move their troops around...
> soldiers whose military service consisted of sleeping through
> the extended periods of boredom, and only being awake for the
> periods of stark terror.
> 
> That kind of setup might be cheap when it came to starship
> life support costs, but I imagine the impact on the soldiers'
> psyches would be extreme.
 
Many, many years ago I played in a Traveller game where a vicious little 
war had broken out in the sector we happened to be in. While the rest of 
the party thought about mercenary tickets or intelligence gathering, I 
went off and found an unused planet somewhere about half way between the 
warring factions and set up a really big R&R centre, the only rule was no 
weapons and the war got left outside. Place was generally swarming with 
troops from both sides, and I made a pile :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:55:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:55:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <memo.561259@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <02Aug2.151432pdt.119054@gw.city.vancouver.bc.ca>
> > On Fri, 2 Aug 2002 Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> 
> <SNIP>
> 
> > I've been trying to decide whether or not to killfile you for a 
> > while--
> > thanks for helping me out.
> 
>  Moi aussi.

I am laughing too hard to issue the requisite command.

Mexal.
former infantry sergeant of the female persuasion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <20020802225803.30867.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Flykiller@aol.com

>>The Germans, and particularly the Japanese were horribly
>>dehumanized.  We made our enemies into monsters so then it was OK 
>>to exterminate them.
>
>Seems to be part of the human condition.  Not only is the enemy an 
>inhuman monster and responsible for any and all evil, _we_ are pure
>as the wind-driven snow in any and all circumstances.  "It's Al
>Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"

This is indeed an old tradition.  The German propagandists in WW2
created the Untermensch to describe various Slavic and Jewish
enemies, and used horrific cartoons to depict them ("Das ist der
Untermensch:  Gott hilf uns von solche wie diesen!" I recall one
saying).  

Indeed, the Battle of Maldon, an English poem from about 900AD,
concerns a fight between Angles (maybe Saxons; I forget) and Vikings.
 The Angles are named and give brave and gallant speeches as they
die.  The Vikings are always called "the wolvish Viking" ("tha
wulflic wicinga"), and they always insult the Angles whom they are
killing.  ("Feelthy English whose mother was a hamster ..." sorry,
wrong piece of English literature.)

--Glenn


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 17:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 16:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Civility APOLOGY
Message-ID: <36.2b6babed.2a7c6bba@aol.com>

 >>     "Yes, basking in verbally-asserted superiority is indeed much more 
 >pleasant than risking actual defeat.  But of course indulging in this makes 
 >you a (description deleted by LEW)"
 > 
 > 
 >Sir,
 >
 >     This post was completely uncalled for, in very poor taste, and little 
 >more than flame bait.  Posting such a message was definitely beneath you.  
I 
 >cannot believe you would normally behave in such a manner.  Passions may be 
 >running high on both sides of this discussion, but that doesn't mean we 
need 
 >to lower ourselves and make personal attacks.
 >     All of us on the List have been guilty of such behavior in the past, 
 >myself especially, but we all also try to conduct ourselves in as civil a 
 >manner as possible.  Because we're human, sometimes we fail.  However, we 
 >all still try.
 >    Your opinions and views have kicked off quite an interesting thread 
 >here on the List.  I have found your responses to other threads interesting 
 >also.  However, posting a message such as the one in question will do 
little 
 >more than earn you a place in many members' kill files.  Your posts, 
 >observations, and opinions deserve a better fate than that.
 >     I look forward to your future posts on a variety of threads and feel 
 >certain that you will conduct yourself in a truly civil manner.
 >
 > 
 >     Sincerely,
 >     William R. Cameron, aka Larsen E. Whipsnade

How can I answer such courteousness?

I fully apologize to Walt Smith, and withdraw my statement without further 
comment.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 17:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 16:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Blowing holes in Japan (was " Re Patton")
References: <00d901c23a66$05486160$4a2bf7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <3D4B1239.5090805@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Fred Ramen wrote:

> Oh, I agree that the Stalin didn't want to expand the conflict any more than
> Truman did. My point was merely that it would have been extremely unlikely
> for the Soviets to allow a divided Japan (as posited in Mr. Whipsnade's
> original post) to be used as a staging area for American intervention in
> Korea (or Vietnam, for that matter).
> 
> Of course, I may be overstating the importance of Japan to US Pacific
> security, and am quite open to being corrected in this regard.

Actually, the main reason we used Japan as the staging area was because 
we were there and it was close.

Had we been denied the use of Japan, we'd have used the Phillipines instead.

Same thing goes for Vietnam.

Then again, had it come to a divided Japan a 'la Germany, the whole Cold 
War thing would have gone quite differently. Vietnam would probably not 
have happened in any way like it did.

(Also, do not forget that during the Korean War, Germany was divided, 
but not like it was later...the Berlin Wall didn't go up until the 60's, 
and we'd just shown Stalin we were willing to go toe-to-toe over Germany 
during the Berlin Airlift. )

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 17:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 16:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <200208022348.g72Nmuw05627@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
>Subject: RE: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
...
>A Wombat swarmers is an anti capital ship weapon.
...
>ARMAMENT
>1 100-ton Meson Bay (Factor-9)

  The 12+ to penetrate a USP one Meson Screen isn't a concern?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 17:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Fri Aug  2 16:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <20020802194954.28a957e7c9c445afb801cb79a22bb3ad.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>On 2 Aug 2002 at 10:28, Cheng Tseng wrote:
>
>> Well, it would have greatly improved the British chances of attacking the
>> German ships if it did not take until just before the Germans were passing
>> the Straits of Dover to even know they were at sea.  At least then, the
>> Brits could have had time to assemble an all-out attack instead of send the
>> aircrafts in dribbles and drabs which allowed the Luftwaffe to kill them.
>> One of Adolf Galland's finer moments, providing air cover for the cruisers.
>
>Yep. It also helped that somewhere in the British communications chain 
>they transformed from 30,000 ton battlecruisers at 30 knots to 20,000 
>ton merchants at 20 knots, so the British pilots were all firing their 
>torpedos with their sights set incorrectly.

Even today, I am still amazed just how lucky the Germans were.  Even with
all their planning, they still could not have predicted the good fortune
they actually got.

Running out of Brest before just about everybody on the British side
believing they would (Bertram Ramsey was apparently the only British
commanding officer who thought the S, G and PRINZ EUGEN would make the dash
so soon.).  Managing to do so at the time the submarine assigned to monitor
Brest was standing out to charge her batteries.  Evading all THREE maritime
search aircraft patrol lines either because the aircrafts had busted
equipment or extremely bad flying weather.  Having so few British torpedo
aircrafts facing them, and having that number cut down even more because the
mobile torpedor service and rearmament unit providing the torpedors got
bogged down in a snow storm.  The list is just mind-boggling.

Okay, I must be suffering from premature Alzheimer's.  There was Swordfishes
during the Dash.  Ouch, one entire flight completely wiped out, with no
survivors.  At least something like half the other flight crews manage to
escape with their lives.

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

 My Sale List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
 My Want List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: max hull size
Message-ID: <200208030007.g7307Bw08657@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Flykiller@aol.com
>Subject: [TML] max hull size
...
> >Again, I'm assuming CT.  Let's see .... at tech 12, max hull size is 
>199,999 
> 
>   <1 MT (USP X) per HG2, pps. 26 & 28.
>
>Sorry -- CT HG.  I don't know what HG2 does.

  OMG - someone _uses_ HG1?! I only got a copy by accident...
neat read, though.

  BTW, do the Reprints include both editions of HG?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Meduim Navies
Message-ID: <3D4B1F7E.736A3F94@mail.cswnet.com>

This may have gotten lost in my last post and the minor flame spat 
going on, so I'll throw it out again and see if anyone bites.

What would the Imperuim see as the maximum allowable size, maximum
allowable quantitative/qualitative weaponry, for a mercenary ship?

Presumabley they would frown on paws and meson guns, but would they
allow big bay weapons?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption (was: warship optimization)
References: <F176AUfKRfcjcMzfoV100024006@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B20D8.AB8EE248@pobox.com>


"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:

> From: Bill Hopper <whopper@pobox.com>
>
>      "I agree that a sub-100dT fighter cannot carry a weapon which can hurt
> a TL15 capital ship, mostly because of the difference in computer size.
> This is why the "fighters" in the smoke test were actually 1000dT boats with
> factor-9 missile bays."
>
> Mr. Hopper,
>
>      The fighter designs used in the smoke tests I was referring to were
> sub-100Ton types.  They were also run at TL12.  Here are the USPs:

I apologize for my confusion.  I must have confused a couple of threads.  I
remembered the missile boat discussion and mistakenly thought it was what you
referred to.

WKH


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <000001c23a6b$4f795aa0$6501a8c0@Darla>
Message-ID: <B9706F61.67837%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/2/02 2:26 PM, Thomas Barnes at twb3@charter.net wrote:

>> However in a fighter you probably are
> 
> I can't agree that the isolation of the cockpit would do that.  I've
> worked with a lot of RL fighter pilots, both Air Force and Navy, and for
> the most part they would rather die than look bad, ESPECIALLY in front
> of the rest of the squadron.

This goes back to what I was saying earlier about the importance of small
groups in the military.  People often do dangerous and risky things for no
other reason than to not look bad in front of their squad mates, or just not
let them down.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] max hull size
References: <ff.1ba47012.2a7c6111@aol.com>
Message-ID: <009d01c23a84$ad976730$7400a8c0@matt>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
>> Again, I'm assuming CT.  Let's see .... at tech 12, max hull size is
>> 199,999
>
>    <1 MT (USP X) per HG2, pps. 26 & 28.
>
> Sorry -- CT HG.  I don't know what HG2 does.

HG2 is CT Book 5: High Guard, 2nd edition.

It was published in 1980, replacing the 1st edition published in 1979. There
was a series of articles in JTAS at the time on updating your version from
1st to 2nd to save you buying a new copy. Obviously this passed you by.

The version in the CT Reprints is HG2.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <200208030033.LYB00224@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Glenn M. Goffin" says
>I have on many occasions in my career as a lawyer

Often, I have marvelled at how some of the more intelligent 
people I have met (successful intelligent people, that is) 
have a carefully selected lawyer and a carefully selected 
accountant.

Most Traveller parties need a full time lawyer - but how many 
have you seen with one? 
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <99.2a2d475a.2a779a93@aol.com> <3D4A0109.D48E52E6@pobox.com> <005801c23a04$ec770b20$0112bd50@martinjd> <006401c23a0f$3ca9da00$7400a8c0@matt> <003201c23a14$66243100$7d03bd50@martinjd> <00a601c23a14$be1ddbe0$7400a8c0@matt> <005901c23a1d$16700d60$7d03bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3D4B277E.4E21AE33@pobox.com>

Matt, Martin,
I agree with both points presented below.  I think fighters should be more
effective in a coordinated, massed attack than they are individually.  I also
agree that 'coordinated' is the key term.

My solution is to group fighters into a 'squadron' so that their weapons can be
combined into one battery. But to do so, the squadrom must have a controlling or
'master' fighter.  The squadron's combined attack is treated as if it is one
battery, and uses the rating of the computer in the controlling fighter with an
additional -1 modifier.

All fighters in a squadron have to be of the same type, with the same agility.
Damaged fighters drop out of the squadron and become individuals.

So a squadron of 10 fighters, each with a triple laser turret, and controlled by
a master fighter with a model 8 computer, would attack as a single code-9
battery fired by a model 7 computer.

If the master fighter is destroyed, the squadron disintegrates into 10
individual fighters.  If a fighter is damaged or destroyed, the battery's rating
is reduced appropriately.  Undamaged fighters can be re-integrated into
squadrons by spending a turn in the reserve with a new master.

Role-playing never came up in relation to this, but for role-playing purposes I
would have the master fighter making recommendations to the pilots of the
squadron, perhaps through a Heads Up Display.  The individual pilots could
disregard the recommendations if they were willing to accept the consequences.

WKH

MJ Dougherty wrote:

> > > Why do you want fighters to be more effective?
> >
> > So that they can have an outside possibility of damaging Capital ships at
> > high TL
>
> And again, why do you want this? Barring me swallowing some and suffering
> some strange kind of poisoning, no amount of flies can beat me in a straight
> fight. My feeling is that fightrers are good for screening and keeping
> merchies in line. Big ships are for killing big ships.
>
> > >
> > > I see the concept, though you'd have to simulate C3 breakdowns, loss
> > > of cohesion etc
> >
> > Sure, just as soon as we do the same for the escorting PD ships of the
> > defending Fleet...
>
> Indeed, though coordinaitng a useful fighter attack requires external comms.
> Escorts can operate on internal comms (hard to jam) and even independently,
> can be useful if the captains are smart. Uncoordinated fighters are just as
> big mess.
>
> >
> > HG is pretty abstract anyway, so this level of detail is unnecessary IMHO.
> > All I am doing is letting Fighters act like Turrets. If several turrets
> can
> > concentrate their fire to increase their effectiveness, why can't several
> > fighters?
>
> Becuase turrets are controlled with internal comms, hardwired through the
> ship, while ifghters have to talk externally and are subject to jamming or
> other problems. And becuase you don't get a battery of turrests scattering
> due to evasion and having to reform.
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <99.2a2d475a.2a779a93@aol.com> <3D4A0109.D48E52E6@pobox.com> <005801c23a04$ec770b20$0112bd50@martinjd> <006401c23a0f$3ca9da00$7400a8c0@matt> <003201c23a14$66243100$7d03bd50@martinjd> <00a601c23a14$be1ddbe0$7400a8c0@matt> <005901c23a1d$16700d60$7d03bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3D4B2746.90DDF4D1@pobox.com>

Matt, Martin,
I agree with both points presented below.  I think fighters should be more
effective in a coordinated, massed attack than they are individually.  I also
agree that 'coordinated' is the key term.

My solution is to group fighters into a 'squadron' so that their weapons can be
combined into one battery. But to do so, the squadrom must have a controlling or
'master' fighter.  The squadron's combined attack is treated as if it is one
battery, and uses the rating of the computer in the controlling fighter with an
additional -1 modifier.

All fighters in a squadron have to be of the same type, with the same agility.
Damaged fighters drop out of the squadron and become individuals.

So a squadron of 10 fighters, each with a triple laser turret, and controlled by
a master fighter with a model 8 computer, would attack as a single code-9
battery fired by a model 7 computer.

If the master fighter is destroyed, the squadron disintegrates into 10
individual fighters.  If a fighter is damaged or destroyed, the battery's rating
is reduced appropriately.  Undamaged fighters can be re-integrated into
squadrons by spending a turn in the reserve with a new master.

Role-playing never came up in relation to this, but for role-playing purposes I
would have the master fighter making recommendations to the pilots of the
squadron, perhaps through a Heads Up Display.  The individual pilots could
disregard the recommendations if they were willing to accept the consequences.

WKH

MJ Dougherty wrote:

> > > Why do you want fighters to be more effective?
> >
> > So that they can have an outside possibility of damaging Capital ships at
> > high TL
>
> And again, why do you want this? Barring me swallowing some and suffering
> some strange kind of poisoning, no amount of flies can beat me in a straight
> fight. My feeling is that fightrers are good for screening and keeping
> merchies in line. Big ships are for killing big ships.
>
> > >
> > > I see the concept, though you'd have to simulate C3 breakdowns, loss
> > > of cohesion etc
> >
> > Sure, just as soon as we do the same for the escorting PD ships of the
> > defending Fleet...
>
> Indeed, though coordinaitng a useful fighter attack requires external comms.
> Escorts can operate on internal comms (hard to jam) and even independently,
> can be useful if the captains are smart. Uncoordinated fighters are just as
> big mess.
>
> >
> > HG is pretty abstract anyway, so this level of detail is unnecessary IMHO.
> > All I am doing is letting Fighters act like Turrets. If several turrets
> can
> > concentrate their fire to increase their effectiveness, why can't several
> > fighters?
>
> Becuase turrets are controlled with internal comms, hardwired through the
> ship, while ifghters have to talk externally and are subject to jamming or
> other problems. And becuase you don't get a battery of turrests scattering
> due to evasion and having to reform.
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: troll optimization on the TML
Message-ID: <200208030048.LYB01066@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mexal says
>I am laughing too hard to issue the requisite command.
>
>Mexal.
>former infantry sergeant of the female persuasion.

Mex, you need to have Fly run around the parade ground until 
you get tired...
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:50:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:50:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re: max hull size
Message-ID: <200208030049.LYB01145@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Steven Hudson asks
>  BTW, do the Reprints include both editions of HG?

Nope. The reprints have HG2 (which was, in its time, issued 
very briefly).
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:53:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:53:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <014a01c23a78$a159d220$5d0bbd50@martinjd>
References: <112.1523c9f7.2a7c50e1@aol.com>
 <014a01c23a78$a159d220$5d0bbd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <m3znw4epbc.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> writes:
> 
> Yeah, and I've seen human beings who were skilled and competent and
> determined and motivated and just plain better than me being kept
> down because they were born female.  You can't damn half the human
> race on a generality.

And I daresay that if we have women serving in full combat capacity
under the regimes of either seperate standards (i.e. where they must
not meet the same standards as men) or reduced standards (e.g. I
understand that two-man stretcher teams are now four or more), we will
see plenty of human beings who die miserably because their comrades
are not up to the task.

And I hardly think that shielding from death and destruction is
`damning.'  Rather a nice thing to do, as a matter of fact.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
There has grown in the minds of certain groups in this country the
idea that just because a man or corporation has made a profit out of
the public for a number of years, the government and the courts are
charged with guaranteeing such profit in the future, even in the face
of changing circumstances and contrary to public interest.  This
strange doctrine is supported by neither statue or common law.  Neither
corporations or individuals have the right to come into court and ask
that the clock of history be stopped, or turned back.
                  --Robert Heinlein, Life Line, 1939

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Meduim Navies
Message-ID: <200208030055.LYB01410@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Roseberry says
>What would the Imperuim see as the maximum allowable size, 
>maximum allowable quantitative/qualitative weaponry, for a 
>mercenary ship?
>

I believe that it should not be so much ship size, as a 
merchant could very well be a 100,000 ton ship.

As for the quantity of weaponry, that should be dealt with in 
combination with the quality.  I think that the limitation 
should be "is is a weapon of mass destruction?"

Along those lines, I think that most fusion weapons should be 
OK, since they are short range. You would have to be in range 
of planetary defenses to use them.  

PAWS of any size should be OK.  They do not penetrate 
atmospheres, and are not wide area effects weapons.

Meson guns - probably a no no in any size or quantity.

No nuclear warheads.

I would think that lasers would have to be of a wavelength 
that is guaranteed to be absorbed by atmosphere.  There are 
some tunable deuterium flouride lasers today that experience 
close to zero loss over their operational range in 
atmosphere.  These could be effective weapons of 
assassination - something I wouldn't want mercenaries to have.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 19:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Barnett-Lewis)
Date: Fri Aug  2 18:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <20020802231503.19852.60096.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B3637.35538EB8@mailbag.com>

Flykiller@aol.com said:
> Whatever benefits they bring I think are outweighed by the negatives.  I'd
> dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their
> traditional roles of nurse and clerk.  If the US military is so hard-up for
> warm bodies that it really needs females, then I say reinstitute the WACS and
> WAVES and whatever else, with their own standards and their own chain of
> command, and put them in charge of stateside facilities like hospitals and
> supply depots and personnel offices so men are freed up for more forward
> duties.
>

Pity. I had thought not to killfile you. Now I know better. 

Not quite Clint, yet even Clint had some intellegent moments.

For the record, as a male US Army NCO, I had far fewer problems with
female soldiers than with certain of my own physical gender.

William
Ex-E5 USA
19E, 19D, 11B, 96B
-- 
You better watch out   What you wish for;
It better be worth it  So much to die for.
		       Courtney Love

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 20:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 19:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <m3znw4epbc.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <B97089CA.67857%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/2/02 5:52 PM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> And I daresay that if we have women serving in full combat capacity
> under the regimes of either seperate standards (i.e. where they must
> not meet the same standards as men) or reduced standards (e.g. I
> understand that two-man stretcher teams are now four or more), we will
> see plenty of human beings who die miserably because their comrades
> are not up to the task.
> 
> And I hardly think that shielding from death and destruction is
> `damning.'  Rather a nice thing to do, as a matter of fact.

But this is the TML, and one supposes that in the 57th century, the measure
of a sophont's fitness for a particular duty is tied to their ability to
perform it.  One may assume that the Imperium establishes baseline
requirements for, say an MOS, and holds to those standards regardless of
race or gender.  This may result in a higher proportion of males in a
particular MOS, perhaps females in another.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 20:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  2 19:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <200208021317.LXD04141@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208021317.LXD04141@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020803121831.A14679@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> A large system like this would have to maintain a considerable
> number of ships in order to defend these assets,

Oh, I agree entirely.  The post upon which I was commenting used the
Battle of the Atlantic as an example of how commerce raiders might
cripple your economy.  I was just pointing out that systems in
Traveller are hundreds of times less dependent upon external trade
than England was.

In-system commerce raiding in Traveller is a different matter
entirely.  The ability of a small enemy force to jump in nearly
anywhere, do some damage and pop out again is extremely difficult to
defend against.  However, the defending ships do not need jump drives
or jump fuel, which makes them significantly cheaper and hence able to
pack a lot more punch for a given size/cost.  Important planets have
their supplies locally produced, which greatly simplifies logistics.



> and protect shipping between these points.  Convoys may be forced to
> use jump ships to do intrasystem jumps to avoid raiders,

Not likely, I would think.  That would cripple your economy worse than
losing 70% of your ships.  You'd be better off escorting them in
normal space, since non-jump ships are so much cheaper than jump
capable ones.

It should not be forgotten that any information the raiders have must
always be at least two weeks out of date by the time they strike.


> and ships inbound/outbound from the system would have to jump at the
> 100D limit without fail after being escorted the entire distance to
> and from the port.

No.  The raider ships aren't going to strike inside the 100D limit of
any meaningful system.

1) If they try, the planetary defences *will* make mincemeat of them
in short order.

2) It is much riskier for them to hit the 'jump' button if they meet
something nastier than them.  And they will, see (1).

3) Their information is two weeks out of date.  Their arrival time is
uncertain to at least a few hours.  They have to strike when a target
is at least half-way out, in the right direction, but hasn't reached
the limit yet.  That's a pretty narrow window, and even then requires
that no sizable armed vessels be nearby.


> In essence, laying siege to such a system might first mean whittling
> down the system defense boats and local fighters with fighter raids
> and light commerce raiders.  You might, after a time, be left only
> with your larger monitors, port defenses, and planetary defense
> sites.

I think you're ignoring the effect of your own losses of any non-jump
ships, and of local replenishment.  You've got a much longer supply
line.


> Ships as small as fighters may also lay mines on courses to sweep
> through traffic areas.

Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.
Another problem is that "high traffic areas" change with the relative
positions of the planets, and even then they will be *very* sparse.

A typical "trading lane" between planets would probably be a region a
few hundred million kilometres long with an average cross-section of a
few tens of trillions of square kilometres.  How many mines do you
propose to put in it?

I could imagine trying to mine a gas-giant; that might work since they
could be rendered undetectable by the atmosphere and yet be within
range of a intruding craft.  However, you would almost certainly be
hit by any pre-existing mines or other defences that were in place
while you were trying to lay them.


>  I would bet that for such an advanced system, while it might well
> be able to subsist on its own, it won't profit as much, especially
> if it engages in trade with a nearby world of similar stature.

Given that most major worlds have trade less than 0.2% of GWP, profits
will be virtually untouched.  Even the major neighbouring worlds of
Rhylanor and Porozlo have trade with each other that is only 1% of
their GWPs.  Look at the countries that have trade somewhere around
0.4% of your nation's GDP, and think about how strong an effect there
would be on your economy if you lost the ability to trade with one of
them in wartime.


> A continuous series of light hit and run raids would force 
> diversion of assets you would ordinarily use elsewhere,

You would also suffer pretty significant attrition yourself, and your
ships are both more expensive and harder to replace.


But overall, I agree that insystem raiding might be a viable tactic.
Keep the raids to areas outside a planet's 100D limit, though.  Target
commerce routes in interplanetary space.  Have excellent sensors to
spot commercial traffic at very long range.  Have high enough thrust
that you can reach targets before the system defences do.  Don't
bother with a stealthy ship -- your jump flash will be spotted anyway,
and you will be tracked automatically.  Use a large number of
alternate refuelling locations in the outer system or in deep space.

The biggest problem for the defender is the ability for the raider to
jump out whenever things are looking risky, without any possibility of
pursuit.  Q-ships are about the only reasonable counter I can think of
at the moment, and even then only to the extent that they can maul the
raiders in the two rounds it takes for them to discover their error
and jump out.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 20:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug  2 19:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <B97089CA.67857%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B97089CA.67857%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m3vg6sejwf.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> 
> But this is the TML, and one supposes that in the 57th century, the
> measure of a sophont's fitness for a particular duty is tied to
> their ability to perform it.  One may assume that the Imperium
> establishes baseline requirements for, say an MOS, and holds to
> those standards regardless of race or gender.  This may result in a
> higher proportion of males in a particular MOS, perhaps females in
> another.

Yep.  I've heard, for example, a theory that women might actually make
better fighter pilots, due to endurance or soemthing like that.
They're also supposed to be better in things like radar rooms.  But
I'm certainly no expert on gender differences.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
French General: `I knew it.  You Germans are only useful as garrison soldiers.'
German Colonel: `True.  In the last war, we garrisoned Paris, Nice, Lyon...'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 20:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Aug  2 19:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Baboon Class Missile Frigate CREWS
References: <20020802231503.19852.60096.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00f401c23a99$36e54e80$c15d8690@computer>

> From: Flykiller@aol.com
> They are too inefficient to kill, yes.  But they can still be a royal pain
> in the ass.  In the end though capital ships can kill them but they can't
> kill capital ships.  Eventually they run out of missiles.

Only in the real world, not in HG. : )

For what it's worth, these things are as cheap as chips. 1500 Missile Bays
fired at one or two capital ships will mission kill them pretty thoroughly.

They do actually die a little bit too fast, but they can make a nice mess of
the capital ships that destroy them.

> I think the big problem with this kind of boat is not their inefficiency,
> but their crews.

This is less of a problem if you consider that they are basically escorts.
Suicide runs against capital ships aren't _really_ what they spend most of
their time doing.

In any case the design is a bit of a first draft. I would tweak it a bit
before I used it in a real Traveller game. If you remember that these things
are frigates, not kamikazes, they are survivable enough.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 20:52:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Aug  2 19:52:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonabo Class Missile Frigate
References: <20020802202311.16203.94229.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00f501c23a99$377c5e60$c15d8690@computer>

> From: Flykiller@aol.com
> No armor?  No low berths?  No medical facilities?  No lifeboat?  No cargo
> supplies?  Well, at least it seems to have extra crewmen -- if you can get
> anyone to sign up.  If I were the referee I'd give this boat an endurance
> of 1 - 2 months max.

It's easy enough to pump up the endurance. Making the ship a bit bigger
should do the trick, although it gets more expensive.

>  >In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships.
> Yes, in sufficient numbers, and if the capital ships are poorly designed
> and employed.  But credit for credit you'll never get the numbers
> sufficient to do so.  Meanwhile with no armor these ships will be dropping
> like flies.

It's a Jump 5 design. That's a huge chunk of displacement gone, and it means
that credit for credit they can't fight capital ships. On the other hand,
they are reasonably hard to hit, and they are relatively cheap, so you can
buy lots and lots of them.

In a strategic game they could be quite useful - they are highly mobile, and
can be all over their opponent's space. And if a whole bunch of them run
into a small group of capital ships, then, yes, they can kill them!

Their survivability is less of a problem if you consider that they wouldn't
spend most of their time attacking capital ships.

Incidentally, it goes without saying that these things kill TL E- ships
quite nicely.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com







From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 20:53:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Aug  2 19:53:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <00f301c23a99$354ad860$c15d8690@computer>

> From: Flykiller@aol.com
> I've seen a handful.  Offsetting this, I've seen companies where every
<rant snipped>
> supply depots and personnel offices so men are freed up for more forward
> duties.

I'm impressed. Your talent for alienating people is quite remarkable.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 20:54:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Aug  2 19:54:22 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Baboon Class Missile Frigate
References: <20020802062003.11635.24330.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00f601c23a99$382d5ee0$c15d8690@computer>

> From: Steven Hudson
> >In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships.
>
>   <QUIBBLE> Not really? By TL E or F dampers make these ships just
> too inefficient, IIRC?

Dampers certainly don't help! They knock out about 5 out of every 6 shot
that hits (and penetrates active defences).

A trillion credits worth of these things will only mission kill one or two
capital ships per turn, and will suffer considerable losses in return.

They probably don't work out as a match for capital ships, but they are
close enough to be useful, I suspect.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <200208021928.LXQ00226@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020802195559.46a76b08@pop.mindspring.com>

At 03:28 PM 8/2/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>"Douglas E. Berry" says
>>Doesn't stop the flow of volunteers.
>
>Me! Me! Pick me!

1. Are you nuts?

2. Really nuts?

3. Can you lie perfectly still while an enemy soldier urinates on you?

4. As in #4, but it is a National Guardsman during a training mission.

5. Do you stand and remove your hat when you hear GnySgt Carlos Hathcock
mentioned?

6. Do you believe in your heart of hearts that there is no such thing as
friendly artillery?

7. When walking in open areas, do you automatically check sight lines and
exfil routes?

8. Do you refer to your wife as your spotter?

9. Do you/Did you make every target at 300 meters but miss the 50 meter ones?

10. We mean it, are you *really* nuts?

If you answered yes to all these questions, you might have what it takes.
Just send Cr 20 and 10 7.62mm shell casings to:

Sniping for Dummies
c/o ACQ Weapons
Box 26, Gridlore Complex
Lunion Up #3
Lunion/Lunion/Spinward Marches
-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Animals who are not penguins can only wish they were.
-Chicago reader, 10/15/82

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:03:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:03:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <112.1523c9f7.2a7c50e1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020802200157.46a789a6@pop.mindspring.com>

At 05:17 PM 8/2/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>Whatever benefits they bring I think are outweighed by the negatives.  I'd 
>dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their 
>traditional roles of nurse and clerk.

I knew many excellent female soldiers, who pulled their weight and then
some.  I also saw many male soldiers who whined and always seemed to be on
profile.

The 50s ended, my dear sir.  As long as they can do the job.  Oh, and an
NCO having sex with a solider in the same chain of command is a violation
of the UCMJ.  They deserved to get busted.
-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"I am the penguin bold! We sailed the sea, to tringalee,
in search of spanish gold" - The Magic Pudding - Norman Lindsay

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:04:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:04:34 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #819 - 24 msgs
References: <3.0.6.32.20020726120258.00a167e0@minn.net>
Message-ID: <3D4B47FA.2000108@gmx.net>

Leslie Bates wrote:

>At 09:30 AM 7/26/2002 -0400, "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Space Viking is definitely a "Traveller-like" book, and the Sword Worlds
>>feature prominently. My only complaint with it? It could actually have made
>>a much longer and more detailed novel.
>>    
>>
>
>Space Viking was originally written for serial publication in ANALOG. Even
>if Piper hadn't shot himself, the market conditions for Science Fiction
>novels would not have justified the rewrite. 
>
>And in my view, Space Viking could have been made into a bloody great movie.
>
>  
>
Still can ... anyone got contacts?

>Les
>
>==================================================================
>Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
>P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
>------------------------------------------------------------------
>The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
>				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
>==================================================================
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
>
>  
>


-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: UFO
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020731085909.45e7b234@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208031234400.22432-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Douglas:

On Wed, 31 Jul 2002, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> I was trying to grow up, then I got cancer, and decided that life was too
> short to be serious about it.
>
> Many cancer patients have a "New Life Birthday," dating from their
> diagnosis date (July 27th for me.)  So I just turned 7.  A good age, in my
> opinion. :)

 I completly understand what you are saying. FWIW I turned 20 in June the
same way. Got the word when I was 30. I responded to treatments and it
disappeared. I refuse to grow up. Besides it would blow my PTSD benefits
<LOL>

BCNU

-- 
 *****        Lord Ronin from Q-Link
******  ****  Sensei David O.E. Mohr
**      ***   Chancellor & Editor for
**            Amiga & Commodore Users Group #447
**      ***   SysOp: The Village BBS {Centipede}
******  ****  503-325-2905 300-28.8K C/G-Ascii-Ansi
 *****        Files, Games, E-Mail, PBEM, Msg Bases


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: max hull size
References: <200208030049.LYB01145@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c23a9b$8969cf30$7400a8c0@matt>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> Steven Hudson asks
>>  BTW, do the Reprints include both editions of HG?
>
> Nope. The reprints have HG2 (which was, in its time, issued
> very briefly).

Briefly?

When did MT come out? '86 wasn't it? Thats 6 years. HG1 was only out for a
year or so. HG1 was published in '79 and HG2 in '80.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: JTAS
Message-ID: <fb.2a270e0d.2a7ca408@aol.com>

>[**] For those who would like to participate, just go to the 
>Starship/Vehicle Design discussion board on JTAS.  Not a subscriber?  
>Why not?  It's only $15 US per two years for biweekly issues and access 
>to archives, discussion boards and Brubek's chat room.  [And if you 
>mention that aurictech referred you, I get a free month added to _my_ 
>subscription! ;-)]
>
>http://jtas.sjgames.com/subscribe/

You also get the thrill of reading my editorials, wherein I discuss items of 
vast import, like where to get the Emperor's favorite wine, and how tomatoes 
and Thomas Jefferson are relevant to Traveller.

Not to mention the assorted design competetions, scintilating discussions, 
and other kewl stuff. JTAS will restore hair (unless you don't want it 
restored), help you lose weight (or gain it), put steam in your stride (which 
isn't as painful as it sounds), and will (like Tree-Frog Beer) make you look 
great and have lots of girlfriends (and/or boyfriends, if you prefer). 

OK, maybe not ALL that stuff, but it IS worth $15 for 2 years. 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Superstition (and Movies)
Message-ID: <d.2aca729a.2a7ca6f7@aol.com>

>At one point during WWII the survival rates of US aviator pilits was not 
>*much* better than kamakazi's. The crucial element is that they believed 
>that their survival was ultimately influenced by their actions and 
>abilities and their omnipresent good luck.

The movie MEMPHIS BELLE (the 1990s remake, not the earlier documentary) 
illustrates this about as accurately as Hollywood ever gets history. It's a 
pretty good representation of the history involved, including the extreme 
youth of the aircrew.

"Danny! Jack threw my St Christopher overboard!"
"Here, take my lucky rubber band . . . it works, honest."

Several years ago, I was toying with the notion of writing a book of war 
movie reviews discussing the relative level of accuracy of each (although I 
think it has already been done). GETTYSBURG is one of my faves in this 
regard. 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Blowing holes in Japan (was " Re Patton")
Message-ID: <F215m4i0FN8Qnr2Hs3j00000007@hotmail.com>

From: "Fred Ramen" <von_rammen@msn.com>

     "Oh, I agree that the Stalin didn't want to expand the conflict any 
more than Truman did. My point was merely that it would have been extremely 
unlikely for the Soviets to allow a divided Japan (as posited in Mr. 
Whipsnade's original post) to be used as a staging area for American 
intervention in Korea (or Vietnam, for that matter)."


My dear Mr. Ramen,

     I completely agree with your analysis, an invaded, occupied, and 
divided Japan could have never been used to support or supply a war in 
Korea.  OTOH, if the Allies had found it necessary to invade Japan, there 
wouldn't have been a Korean war in the first place.
     Soviet Far Eastern forces, which were in the process of clearing 
Manchuria of Japanese troops during August of '45, would have simply 
continued the process down the Korean penninsular.  There would have been no 
division of control between US and USSR at the 38th parallel, as happened in 
history, the USSR would control the entire penninsular and Kim Il Sung would 
have been installed as the acting puppet premier of a communist and united 
Korean nation.
     After disposing of the Korean conflict, the rest of the Cold War in the 
Pacific gets murky.  The USSR would have warm water ports in Korea, 
Hokkaido, and northern Honshu, none of which have the "choke points" that 
assisted us in the Atlantic.  The Pacific would not have been the placid 
American lake it was in our history.
     Oddly enough, having Soviet troops in a Tokyo sector surrounded by an 
American occupation zone may have given the Kremlin pause.  Would there have 
been a Berlin blockade if a corresponding Tokyo blockade was threatened?
     Also, an invasion of Japan may have created a far more nervous post-war 
US.  Having 100s of thousands of troops tied down in our parts of the Home 
Islands fighting against a guerilla campaign would have had some effect on 
the home front.
     Nationalist Chinese troops were slated to occupy portions of the Home 
Islands if an invasion came off.  How would Mao's victory in '49 have 
effected those forces?  Would Mao's triumph even have occurred?  The 
Nationalists may have been forced by a more nervous West to reform, instead 
of being virtually ignored after the war ended.  China could be balkanized 
in the invasion timeline.
     Vietnam is another problem.  Would the US have let the French flounder 
around as they did if we were as worried about the Pacfic as we were about 
Europe?  The US dealt with Tito, he may have been a commie but he wasn't the 
Kremlin's boy.  One wonders if a similar relationship would have been made 
with Ho Chi Minh.  A more likely scenario would have been an early and 
forceful entry in to the Vietnam conflict by the US in the 50's.
     The result may have been an Indochina similar to our Central America, 
rat bastards in charge of corrupt, laughing-stock nations supported by the 
West solely because they aren't communists.
     The effects of all this on the Phillipines is unclear too.  Would the 
US take a more active interest, for good or ill, in Manila if the Pacific 
was more threatening?  What would have been the effect on all the European 
colonies in South East Asia?  Would an Indonesia or a Malaysia happened?
     Gee, ain't alternate history fun?

     "Of course, I may be overstating the importance of Japan to US Pacific 
security, and am quite open to being corrected in this regard."

     I don't think it could be overstated.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:35:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat HULL THICKNESS LIMITATION
Message-ID: <190.ad335f8.2a7ca953@aol.com>

 >HULL
 >185.000 tons standard, 2,590.000 cubic meters, Planetoid Configuration

In a Planetoid Configuration of this size the maximum thickness of the outer 
hull is 0.6 meters and likely much less.  If this ship were 185,000 tons, the 
maximum outer thickness of the outer hull would be 6.0 meters.  Yet in both 
cases they are considered to be naturally armor 3.  I think there should be a 
lower limit on allowable tonnages for Planetoid and Buffered Planetoid ships.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat
Message-ID: <c5.26be7ee0.2a7caa89@aol.com>

 >In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships which have an armor
 >factor of 13 or less.

With a fusion gun?  I'm sorry, you must be using rules I'm not familiar with. 
 I was thinking of High Guard.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020802200157.46a789a6@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <3.0.5.16.20020802200157.46a789a6@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m3k7n8eh5f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes:
>
> Oh, and an NCO having sex with a solider in the same chain of
> command is a violation of the UCMJ.  They deserved to get busted.

That's a nice enough theory, but if one throws a bunch of 18-20
yr. old boys and girls together they're going to get randy.  That's
the Way It Is, regardless of what the rules are.  At least if one
believes the modern prattle that one's sexual drive is irresistible,
then one cannot hold anyone to account for giving in to said drive.
And if one _doesn't_ hold to said prattle, then there's a whole load
of other things one must abandon.

I'd find the whole business amusing, were it not so deadly serious.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
According to the National Crime Survey administered by the Bureau of
the Census and the National Institute of Justice, it was found that
only 12 percent of those who use a gun to resist assault are injured,
as are 17 percent of those who use a gun to resist robbery.  These
percentages are 27 and 25 percent, respectively, if they passively
comply with the felon's demands.  Three times as many were injured if
they used other means of resistance.
          --G. Kleck, Policy Lessons from Recent Gun Control Research

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: JTAS
In-Reply-To: <fb.2a270e0d.2a7ca408@aol.com>
References: <fb.2a270e0d.2a7ca408@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3fzxweh3i.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

GDWGAMES@aol.com writes:
> 
> OK, maybe not ALL that stuff, but it IS worth $15 for 2 years. 

Seconded.  JTAS is _very_ cool.  I like it lots.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
With the Smart Ship's reputation so far, they will have to build a bloody
big trebuchet for the damn thing to be useful as a weapon.
                                         --Derry Hamilton

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <m3k7n8eh5f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <3.0.5.16.20020802200157.46a789a6@pop.mindspring.com> <m3k7n8eh5f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020803135320.A15209@freeman.little-possums.net>

Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> At least if one believes the modern prattle that one's sexual drive
> is irresistible,

I've never heard that one before.  Where is it prattled, and who
prattles it?


> And if one _doesn't_ hold to said prattle, then there's a whole load
> of other things one must abandon.

Like what?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
Message-ID: <18b.bc68e45.2a7cae08@aol.com>

 >> >Nor will I criticize the voters of that city for being stupid enough to
 >> >re-elect as mayor a convicted drug dealer, and then expect the tone of 
the
 >> >city to be anything other than what it is.
 >
 >>Oh, but they're not stupid.  They knew what the tone of the city would be. 
 
 >>That's why they voted for him.
 >
 >I refuse to believe that they _want_ a city that is so badly mismanaged
 >that Congress was ready to take away what autonomy they had.

What was it Ayn Rand said -- "To refuse to consider something is to fear that 
the worst is true"?  Something like that.  If the people of D.C. didn't want 
what they have, they'd do something about it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 22:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 21:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
Message-ID: <2d.211708b3.2a7cb2c1@aol.com>

 >All I am doing is letting Fighters act like Turrets. If several turrets can
 >concentrate their fire to increase their effectiveness, why can't several
 >fighters?

You could extend this same concept to spinal mount vessels.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 22:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 21:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <20020803135320.A15209@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <B970A810.6788B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/2/02 8:53 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:

> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
>> At least if one believes the modern prattle that one's sexual drive
>> is irresistible,
> 
> I've never heard that one before.  Where is it prattled, and who
> prattles it?
> 

Here on the TML, for one place.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 22:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 21:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>

 >> How
 >> serious is the trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took place because
 >> the small island of England was not self-sufficient in either agricultural
 >> or industrial matters, but I don't think this situation will arise on many
 >> _planets_.  If trade is truly a major issue and lifeline then a massed 
herd
 >> of raiders will be crippling regardless of any other fleet elements
 >> employed.  But I think most planets with populations sufficient to have
 >> significant trade connections will have huge internal capacites to produce
 >> what they need anyway, and huge reserves of whatever they have to import
 >> (consider our Strategic Oil Reserve).  
 >
 >If planets are so self sufficient, then why does TNE describe planets 
failing 
 >because they were cut off from interstellar trade?

Don't know.  Doesn't make much sense to me.  I can see it happening here and 
there of course, but not en masse.  TNE may state it, but that's not 
necessarily a reason to just swallow it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 22:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri Aug  2 21:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Meduim Navies
References: <20020803025421.23615.36452.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B5AFB.8934A0CD@ameritech.net>

> Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 19:10:38 -0500
> From: Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com

> This may have gotten lost in my last post and the minor flame spat
> going on, so I'll throw it out again and see if anyone bites.
> 
> What would the Imperuim see as the maximum allowable size, maximum
> allowable quantitative/qualitative weaponry, for a mercenary ship?
> 
> Presumabley they would frown on paws and meson guns, but would they
> allow big bay weapons?

At first blush I think the authorities will start to watch closely if
you have armed ships bigger than 5-10,000 tons. As for weaponry if I
were in charge I'd definitely try to put the kibosh on privately held
bay weapons since they can pose a threat to IN ships of the line as well
as having the potential to escalate wars from the relatively clean form
that the Imperium tollerates to the kind of battle that can cause long
term damage to facilities, populations, and trade.

YMMV

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 22:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 21:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes
Message-ID: <4957.64.8.3.28.1028349006.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

Hello Folks,
  Just a question of sorts...

In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head tax" or does it charge
an income tax on its citizens for its Imperial Budget requirements?  In
short, if the Imperial government taxes 10% of a Gross Planetary Product,
then it would in essence be an income tax.  If it charges a flat 500 CR
per person on a planet, then it is a head tax.  Which is it?

And I find it an interesting thought here.  If the Imperium charges say,
3% of a planet's gross planetary product for its military taxes - this tax
is on top of the local ruler's/government's tax.  How much in the way of
taxes can a population take before its economy begins to stagnate?




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 22:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 21:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEKPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Thomas Barnes" <twb3@charter.net>
>
>> if the tables were turned. I have no doubt the Axis powers, had they won,
>> would have gone on a rampage of looting, rape, genocide, and destruction
>> that would boggle the mind, and luckily remains in the realm of
science-fiction.
>
>In fact, the Axis powers DID go on a rampage of looting, rape, genocide
>and destruction.  That is why they had to be stopped.

But it was such a limited rampage -- only most of Europe, western Russia,
the northern edge of Africa, China, Burma, Thailand, Indochina, the
Philippines, New Guinea, Indonesia, Melanesia, and Micronesia really
suffered.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 22:50:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 21:50:46 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Military Psychology
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEKPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com>
>Subject: [TML] re: Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
traveller)
>
>With "freezer pop" soldiers, you might have people who wake
>up, fight to the death for a week, then go back to sleep
>until the next fight to the death crops up. No down time,
>no ability to process what happened before it all starts
>again.  Imagine the post-war condition of the average US

For this reason, I doubt that the Imperial and Solomani militaries rely
heavily on low berth for troop transportation.  The Zhodani may have an edge
with better capabilities in psychology.

>Forever War was a helluva book, btw.

Agreed!

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIELACEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng)
>
>Even today, I am still amazed just how lucky the Germans were.  Even with
>all their planning, they still could not have predicted the good fortune
>they actually got.

Possible explanations for this run of luck:

1) That was when the devil was still living up to his side of the deal for
Hitler's soul.

2) That was when the Germans had the Ark of the Covenant; the Indiana Jones
movie's action takes place too early.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:09:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:09:42 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKELACEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
>Most Traveller parties need a full time lawyer - but how many
>have you seen with one?

I ran a campaign some years ago where the PCs got arrested and their ship
impounded by the local authorities when they entered orbit around Moughas.
The Fifth Frontier War had started, and the Vargr Gireel Fleet had captured
Moughas, but was using the local government structure while it plundered
whatever it could.  The local legal system called for the accused to be
represented by counsel, and required a choice of counsel, so three Vargr
lawyers appeared on a split screen to pitch their services.

The PCs eventually picked the most aggressive one, who got out of his seat
and went over to each of the other two and punched them out.  They did ok
with his services, but his legal fees cost them much of the money they'd
acquired to date.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:10:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:10:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMELACEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>
>But this is the TML, and one supposes that in the 57th century, the measure
>of a sophont's fitness for a particular duty is tied to their ability to
>perform it.  One may assume that the Imperium establishes baseline
>requirements for, say an MOS, and holds to those standards regardless of
>race or gender.  This may result in a higher proportion of males in a
>particular MOS, perhaps females in another.

That's how it works in my Traveller universe.  Of course, we add "species"
to "regardless of race [i.e., subspecies] or gender."

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:11:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:11:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOELACEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)

>But I'm certainly no expert on gender differences.

To paraphrase my late father, no man is.

--Glenn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:11:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:11:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <a8.f784519.2a7cbf66@aol.com>

 >> A good point worthy of discussion.  I have commerce raiders, but I
 envision
 >> them as travelling in a single mass, outrunning and dodging attempts by
 >> serious fleet elements to pursue them (unless, of course, the raiders
 blunder
 >> into them).  Small patrols and escorts are never going to be able to deal
 >> with such a herd, while major patrols and escorts deployed everywhere will
 >> seriously impact the size of the remaining core fleet.
 >
 >If you spread out a mix of powerful and less powerful commerce raiders,
 >you'll pull more fleet assets away. That's half the point.

I'll be concentrating on the core fleet of the enemy.  If I defeat them, then 
I'll round up the commerce raiders at leisure.  That's my whole point.

 >>How serious is the
 >> trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took place because the small
island
 >> of England was not self-sufficient in either agricultural or industrial
 >> matters, but I don't think this situation will arise on many _planets_.
 >
 >It'll impact revenue, which hurts over time. More importantly, it hurts
 >civilian morale and causes demands for proteciton. And you can damage the
 >logistics train - if the enemy is missile-heavy, he has to get them to the
 >battle area...

Good points all.  Sure you'll have revenue losses -- can you imagine what the 
Soviet Union's revenue losses were like? -- but if in the meantime the main 
enemy fleet is engaged and defeated then that won't matter.  "The only thing 
more expensive than a war is losing."  As for morale and demands for 
protection, the civilians will know their best chance for protection is a 
fleet victory.  One can point to any number of instances where stubborn 
insistence on city protection contrary to military necessity has caused the 
defeat of an army.  Further, the loudest calls for protection will be from 
those worlds capable of building their own local defense forces.  As for the 
missiles, yes, that's a major problem if you are missile-heavy, and I think 
the best way to solve it is to have large stocks on hand in protected bases 
before the war and not try to manufacture what you need during a war.

 >>If
 >> trade is truly a major issue and lifeline then a massed herd of raiders
will
 >> be crippling regardless of any other fleet elements employed.
 >
 >Until it inevitably gets squashed. Dispersed raiding works better, other
 >than for targeted strikes, say on a critical system to massacre the
 >concentration of merhcant shipping there.

It will only get squashed if it gets caught by a superior force.  If your 
opponent disperses, then dispersing yourself simply plays his game at his 
level, but staying concentrated leaves all of his dispersed elements unable 
to oppose you.  If your opponent concentrates and tries to force a major 
engagement then this will either require a huge containment fleet all out of 
proportion to the raider task force (in which case the main fleet will be 
left weakened) or a wild stroke of luck as the raiders blunder into this 
pursuing fleet.

 >Assuming he's rich enough to afford a fleet like that. Guerre de Course has
 >always been the weaker nation's option.

If you are richer than your opponent then there's little he can do.  If you 
are equal, then if you're rich enough to build a significant escort/patrol 
fleet and scatter it everywhere then he's rich enough to build an equal-value 
capital fleet and slowly march it through your scattered escorts.

 >> I don't think you can get "greater concentration of force" with "less
ships".
 >
 >I have 6 ships, you have 12. I draw 8 of your ships away with a feint, and
 >gain local superiority. You sent them all? Great. I smash your base. You
 >sent none? Well, if my recon is up to it I'll know. Next time I just smash
 >something elsewhere , maybe with pairs of my ships, while you sit tight and
 >wait for the big clash at JUtland.

And if I outfeint you?  I think you're assuming a defensive and dumb enemy, 
with you holding all the offense and recon-intelligence cards.  If you have 
six and I have twelve I'll just guard the base with six and chase you with 
the other six.

I'm about done here.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <20020802231503.19852.60096.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17arId-0004ch-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>

"Thomas Barnes" <twb3@charter.net> wrote:
 
> > 
> > You really think that a computer can be powerful enough to simulate
> > all that and yet not have safeguards to prevent death?  I would
> > imagine that it'd be just like a modern simulator: screw up and you
> > get the `shatter screen.'
> > 
> > Although it could also be used to give you a nasty shock or something
> > every time you screw up...
> > 
> 
> Not necessarily.  I was working on an F-15 trainer a few years ago and
> stepped out of the seat to reach a terminal while leaving the aircraft
> "in flight".  It took a bit longer that I thought it would, and the
> uncontrolled simulated jet ended up impacting the "earth" at Mach
> 1.something.  
> 
> The control loader on the stick modeled stick forces due to the
> accelerations of the aircraft, so in response to the massive g-loading
> of the crash, drove the stick violently aft.  It is my good fortune that
> I was not in the way of the stick when it drove aft, since it hit the
> stops hard enough to snap a stainless steel cable in the control loader.

Ouch!

I'm guessing that by TL12+ all well-made simulators will be 
indistinguishable form the real thing, except that the simulators 
don't have the fast or lingering death if you screw up.  Combine 
holography and artificial gravity and really fancy computers and 
you've got a very powerful combination that might not even be that 
expensive. I'm guessing that driver ed for grav vehicles will involve 
getting thrown into a bunch of simulations of dangerous situations 
and then getting graded on how you do.  

Fighter sims would probably involve high-g loads (in fighters where 
the accelerations are greater than the degree of compensation), 
fast turns, zig-zag dodging at high-g and all manner of stuff that 
would leave the newbies sick as a dog immediately afterwards, and 
hurting the next day.

The fun part will come of someone figures out a moderately easy 
way to get someone into a simulator while making them think they 
are getting into the real thing.  You won't be able to pull that trick 
more than once on someone unless the sims are *really* good 
(and they might be), but it would be an *excellent* test of exactly 
how well a pilot has learned his or her lessons.  



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:19:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:19:49 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
In-Reply-To: <20020802231503.19852.60096.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17arIf-0004ch-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>

ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>) wrote:

> "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> writes:
> > 
> > Personally, I find it hard to shed many tears for Hiroshima,
> > Nagasaki, or Dresden.
> 
> I dunno--the firebombing of Dresden is IMHO one of the worst war
> crimes committed by the US.  Esp. the bit about destroying emergency
> vehicles...
> 
> That no-one was ever strung up for it is a travesty.  We're supposed
> to be better than that.

Agreed.  Hiroshima and Nagasaki can at least be argued as being 
better than the alternatives (although I've heard several different 
PoVs about how exactly necessary bombing Nagasaki was).  
However, Dresden is an amazingly clear cut case.  It was an act of 
terror and vengeance easily as bad as anything the other side did 
in it's bombing of civilian targets.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com  

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:20:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Volker)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:20:36 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Names
In-Reply-To: <14d.1114a660.2a6ad884@aol.com>
References: <14d.1114a660.2a6ad884@aol.com>
Message-ID: <31100237350.20020803141400@greimann.de>

> to Texas from Illinois, in company with my father and three notarized
> documents from her two older sisters and her father attesting to her birth at 
> the date and time in question. A few hours at the county courthouse and she 
> was issued a backdated document.


Scribble, scribble:

<campaign notes>
"Need  any  documents  you  "lost"?  Go  to Desdemona, they'll get you
one. ...For a price!"
</Campaign Notes>


-- 
*** Volker Greimann * volker@greimann.de ***
******  Long live Emperor Strephon!  *******


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:25:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:25:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Taxes
Message-ID: <3D4B6830.F9B207D4@mail.cswnet.com>

>In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head tax" or does it >charge an income tax on its citizens for its Imperial Budget >requirements?  In short, if the Imperial government taxes 10% of a >Gross Planetary Product, then it would in essence be an income tax.  >If it charges a flat 500 CR per person on a planet, then it is a head >tax.  Which is it?

Depends on the system your useing.
TCS says its a head count
Striker implies, by your definition, something like an income tax
Ian Ferguson's small navies and my meduim navies uses a hybrid tax

>If the Imperium charges say, 3% of a planet's gross planetary product
>for its military taxes - this tax is on top of the local
>ruler's/government's tax.

But the Imperium doesn't do that; Canon says it charges 30% of the
military budget, not the gpp[Strikerv1.0, book2, page38, section IV,
rule 73, part B, last paragraph]. How the local ruler comes up with the
money for the budget is his/her/its business, but no matter how much
money comes in the Imperuim is getting 30%. Otherwise, the local ruler
gets met by the Happy Baseball Bat [a companion of the Happy Fun Ball;
better not to ask]. Also, if the economy gets dragged down by said local
rulers taxation, I foresee problems between he/she/it and the Imperuim.
Isn't it part of the rules of war that the Imperuim doesn't like wars
that damage the economy of the Imperuim. The 3I MIGHT view overtaxation
as a problem if it led to economic instability and slow down in economic
growth. Then again it might not, considering the large number of planets
with high gov codes and presumably high taxes in one form or another. I
think it would depend on the situation and the ability of the local
ruler...see T4s Pocket Empires for that.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <20020803025421.23615.36452.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17arTK-0005yh-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>) wrote:

> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> > 
> > But this is the TML, and one supposes that in the 57th century, the
> > measure of a sophont's fitness for a particular duty is tied to
> > their ability to perform it.  One may assume that the Imperium
> > establishes baseline requirements for, say an MOS, and holds to
> > those standards regardless of race or gender.  This may result in a
> > higher proportion of males in a particular MOS, perhaps females in
> > another.
> 
> Yep.  I've heard, for example, a theory that women might actually make
> better fighter pilots, due to endurance or soemthing like that.

More than a theory actually.  The number of women being trained 
as fighter pilots continues to climb, and there are many predictions 
that the number of female fighter pilots will surpass the number of 
male fighter pilots in not all that many years.  Women in general 
are shorter, lighter, and have better resistance to g forces (ie they 
don't black out as quickly) all of which are very useful qualities in 
modern fighter aircraft. 

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <E17arId-0004ch-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMEAMIKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of
sneadj@mindspring.com
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 10:17 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller


"Thomas Barnes" <twb3@charter.net> wrote:
 
> > 
> > You really think that a computer can be powerful enough to simulate
> > all that and yet not have safeguards to prevent death?  I would
> > imagine that it'd be just like a modern simulator: screw up and you
> > get the `shatter screen.'
> > 
> > Although it could also be used to give you a nasty shock or something
> > every time you screw up...
> > 
> 
> Not necessarily.  I was working on an F-15 trainer a few years ago and
> stepped out of the seat to reach a terminal while leaving the aircraft
> "in flight".  It took a bit longer that I thought it would, and the
> uncontrolled simulated jet ended up impacting the "earth" at Mach
> 1.something.  
> 
> The control loader on the stick modeled stick forces due to the
> accelerations of the aircraft, so in response to the massive g-loading
> of the crash, drove the stick violently aft.  It is my good fortune that
> I was not in the way of the stick when it drove aft, since it hit the
> stops hard enough to snap a stainless steel cable in the control loader.

Ouch!

I'm guessing that by TL12+ all well-made simulators will be 
indistinguishable form the real thing, except that the simulators 
don't have the fast or lingering death if you screw up.  Combine 
holography and artificial gravity and really fancy computers and 
you've got a very powerful combination that might not even be that 
expensive. I'm guessing that driver ed for grav vehicles will involve 
getting thrown into a bunch of simulations of dangerous situations 
and then getting graded on how you do.  

Fighter sims would probably involve high-g loads (in fighters where 
the accelerations are greater than the degree of compensation), 
fast turns, zig-zag dodging at high-g and all manner of stuff that 
would leave the newbies sick as a dog immediately afterwards, and 
hurting the next day.

The fun part will come of someone figures out a moderately easy 
way to get someone into a simulator while making them think they 
are getting into the real thing.  You won't be able to pull that trick 
more than once on someone unless the sims are *really* good 
(and they might be), but it would be an *excellent* test of exactly 
how well a pilot has learned his or her lessons.  


_______________________________________________

Throw in a meson communicator and you've got telepresense

jml
so that's what a Ten gee Immelman is like

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <1a1.64c8bb6.2a7cc59a@aol.com>

 >Let's turn this on its head. Can you explain how this model of yours
 >works...? How do you plan to fight a war with it?

Recall, I'm working with CT HG (the original -- I understand there is an HG2 
out?).

I put a fleet together for the Spinward Marches.  Being what it is, it is 
primarily intended to be defensive.  Most of it is stationed at Jewell, 
Efate, and Regina, with task forces at Vilis, Lunion, and Glisten.  If the 
Zhodies send their main fleet body in a straight-on attack then we'll decide 
the issue then and there.  If they send the main body on an end run by Vilis 
heading for my high-population worlds then I'll just have to try to catch 
them while sending in two or three task forces to try and blockade Cronor, 
cutting off their supplies.  If that attack succeeds then they will be forced 
to retreat -- if they ever find out.  Meanwhile I'll be attempting to engage 
their main body with my main body.  If we meet then again we'll decide the 
issue.  If they scatter to spread havoc then I'll break up into units that 
hopefully will always outnumber their groups and just continue to pursue 
them, scooping them up as I find them while also leaving some task forces on 
the border hoping to catch their isolated elements as they try to leave.  
Anyway, that's what I envision.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
In-Reply-To: <E17arIf-0004ch-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>
References: <20020802231503.19852.60096.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <E17arIf-0004ch-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <2007.64.8.3.28.1028353249.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

Even Acts of Terror may be considered as life saving...

> However, Dresden is an amazingly clear cut case.  It was an act of
> terror and vengeance easily as bad as anything the other side did  in
> it's bombing of civilian targets.

I do *NOT* condone the targetting of civilian targets.  However - it is a
fact that the targetting of civilian targets is a viable military
strategy.  MAD - Mutually Assured Destruction, is the ultimate in
terrorism in the sense that it states plainly to your enemy "Kill my
non-combatants, and I will kill yours".
  Likewise, if Dresden told Germany in no uncertain terms, that continued
  terrorist activity on its part would be met in kind by such activity on
  the Allied side - then so be it.  I will *NOT* Judge the military
  commanders of that time for the decisions made.  Any more than I would
  condemn Isreal or India for use of military force against civilian
  targets - *IF* their own civilian populations are being targetted by
  enemies of their state.  If the enemy starts off bringing a rifle to
  battle, it would be a fool who refuses to sink to his enemy's level of
  barbarity, if he continues to bring a club to the fight.  Likewise -
  barbarism is sometimes the only thing that barbaric rulers and/or
  leaders will understand.  Enough said on that topic by myself ;)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
Message-ID: <186.bc7cec0.2a7cc747@aol.com>

 >> > Why do you want fighters to be more effective?
 >>
 >> So that they can have an outside possibility of damaging Capital ships at
 >> high TL
 >
 >And again, why do you want this? Barring me swallowing some and suffering
 >some strange kind of poisoning, no amount of flies can beat me in a straight
 >fight. My feeling is that fightrers are good for screening and keeping
 >merchies in line. Big ships are for killing big ships.

Yeah.  But Traveller is an RPG, not just a pseudo-scientific wargame.  It's 
nice to be able to have a Luke Skywalker in an X-wing.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 00:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 23:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <16.231f5efa.2a7ccd90@aol.com>

 >> Will they come apart if they take 98% casualties between breakfast and 
lunch? 
 >>  That is on a level with the original post that started this discussion.
 >
 >No it wasn't, because the original post didn't specify a proportion, 
 >merely an absolute quantity.

Let's look at what the proportion would be.  70,000 ton capital ship vs 
70,000 ton carrier.  Both J4, tech 15, as per CT HG1.  The carrier will be 
carrying fighters at about 35% of its mass.  The fighters to be at all 
effective will have to be 90 tons each.  (70,000 * .35) / 90 is 272 fighters 
(if anyone says the carrier and fighters will be cheaper and therefore more 
numerous just remember the 272 model 9 computers at 140MCr a pop).  The 
original quote from the original post was "a few hundred fighters".  I'd 
think that "a few hundred" would mean between 200 and 300.  Unless there is 
some extra-ordinary reason why such losses are necessary, I don't think 
anyone is going to want to be a fighter pilot on a carrier that sends out a 
few hundred fighters and only recovers a mere handful as a matter of course 
-- if it recovers any at all, since the margin of victory will be so narrow.  
In any case, if this involves, say, 100 ships per side, then in the end there 
will be about 28 lightly-damaged cruisers left (lightly-damaged as per the 
house rule originally discussed), while the fighters will just about all be 
eliminated.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 00:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 23:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <81.1f59b1a7.2a7cd257@aol.com>

 >> How serious is the trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took
 >> place because the small island of England was not self-sufficient in
 >> either agricultural or industrial matters, but I don't think this
 >> situation will arise on many _planets_.
 >
 >Not for the planets of any meaningful military capacity, anyway.  99%
 >of the production of the Imperium comes from 10% of the planets.  The
 >combined trade of those planets with every other planet (including
 >each other) is about 0.2% of their combined economies.  That means
 >that whatever they import can't be worth much.

You say it better than I do.  Thanks.  Wanting to protect or disrupt trade is 
great, but when you're looking at a map of what is actually there then you 
start thinking, "Now wait a minute ...."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 00:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 23:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <ac.2b37fb6e.2a7cd350@aol.com>

 >Personally, my opinion is that TNE needed an apocalypse and lack of
 >trade was just an excuse.

It certainly makes for an excellent RPG adventuring environment.  Depending 
on your tastes.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 00:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 23:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
Message-ID: <151.11d6b5dc.2a7cd85d@aol.com>

 >You see, I spent most of my time in the
 >Liberal Arts when I was in school, and it did me an irrepairable brain
 >injury. Traveller is therapy for me now.

I was going to say maybe ease up on the science and just create an 
adventurable world, but I see what you mean.  That's great, keep it up!

 >does a dense
 >atmosphere hold more energy? Wouldn't it take that much more energy to
 >"move" a dense atmosphere into weather changes?

Yes, and yes.  And too, denser atmospheres will have much more kinetic energy 
when moving.  I strong breeze in a dense atmosphere will probably knock down 
anyone trying to walk in the open.  Wish I knew the math to tell you.

 >Would the world's oceans act as thermal "batteries", and if so, how would 
they  
 >affect the weather?

Yes.  Oceans are tremendous reservoirs of heat and moderators of weather.  
Land climates near oceans are always warmer in winter and cooler in summer 
than land climates far away from oceans.  When I lived in Oceanside if you 
wanted air conditioning all you had to do was open an east window and a west 
window, because all that rising hot air in the inland desert drew a constant 
cool breeze off of the ocean 24 hours a day 365 days a year.  I didn't put on 
a coat or turn on a fan or air conditioner for four years.

On the other hand you don't get big storms inland.  Oceans store lots of 
heat, and it gets transfered in currents, storms, and hurricanes.

Wish I could tell you more.  If I see anything I'll direct you to it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 01:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 00:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <82.1f5501bd.2a7cdb36@aol.com>

 >Has anyone noted the set up with regards to the number of starports that 
 >can produce starships versus those that can only builld system ships?  And 
 >to make matters worse, there aren't that many high tech star ports around

I have.  It does make a big difference, doesn't it?  "If my ships are cheaper 
I'll be able to build more of them!"  No you can't.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 01:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 00:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
Message-ID: <2cce1d2ceb69.2ceb692cce1d@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Hopper <whopper@pobox.com>
Date: Saturday, August 3, 2002 3:44 am
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship 
optimization)

> Matt, Martin,
> I agree with both points presented below.  I think fighters should 
> be more
> effective in a coordinated, massed attack than they are 
> individually.  I also
> agree that 'coordinated' is the key term.
> 
> My solution is to group fighters into a 'squadron' so that their 
> weapons can be
> combined into one battery. But to do so, the squadrom must have a 
> controlling or
> 'master' fighter.  The squadron's combined attack is treated as if 
> it is one
> battery, and uses the rating of the computer in the controlling 
> fighter with an
> additional -1 modifier.
> 
<<snips details of fighter squadron house rule>>
> 
> Role-playing never came up in relation to this, but for role-
> playing purposes I
> would have the master fighter making recommendations to the pilots 
> of the
> squadron, perhaps through a Heads Up Display.  The individual 
> pilots could
> disregard the recommendations if they were willing to accept the 
> consequences.

You could also have the pilot of the "master" fighter make a Fleet 
Tactics roll each turn, with failure resulting in a -1 to the squadron 
fire Factor.

<<snip>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 01:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 00:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <1b9.4379064.2a7cdd3a@aol.com>

 >A large system like this would have to maintain a 
 >considerable number of ships in order to defend these assets

And not only can they, they'll all be powerful SDB's.  It will take vast 
resources to assault such a world.  And when the main jump fleet hears where 
you are, they'll come running.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 01:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 00:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <2d682c2d2cdb.2d2cdb2d682c@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: sneadj@mindspring.com
Date: Saturday, August 3, 2002 8:16 am
Subject: RE: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller

<<snip>>
> 
> The fun part will come of someone figures out a moderately easy 
> way to get someone into a simulator while making them think they 
> are getting into the real thing.  You won't be able to pull that 
> trick 
> more than once on someone unless the sims are *really* good 
> (and they might be), but it would be an *excellent* test of 
> exactly 
> how well a pilot has learned his or her lessons.

Or, a'la _Ender's Game_, get them in the real thing while they're 
convinced that they're just in a simulator (and thus can't be killed).
  



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 01:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 00:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"
Message-ID: <11c.14d66d9e.2a7ce27f@aol.com>

 >>>> "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!" >>>
 >
 >Under the rules of war, we've been discussing, if an enemy intentionally
 >builds fortifications or other military structures among a civilian
 >populance, then that enemy becomes rssponsible for the safety of those
 >aforementioned civilians. If those civilians are actively and willfully
 >supporting the enemy, then they are no longer considered noncombatants. So,
 >it IS Al Quaida's fault and responsibility if the US intentionally seeks to
 >bomb a legitimate military target that Al Qaida has hidden behind a human
 >shield.

I rest my case.

"It's Milosivic's fault we bombed a convoy of farmers!"
"It's Arafat's fault we bombed that apartment building!"
"It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a convoy of inauguration representatives on 
the open road!"

If I were to act with this level of disregard even in defense of my own 
children, I'd be in jail.  McVeigh was right -- "collateral damage" covers a 
multitude of sins.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 01:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 00:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <2d53e02d6366.2d63662d53e0@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
Date: Thursday, August 1, 2002 2:39 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] sword vs shotgun

> >From: Flykiller@aol.com  
> >Subject: Re: [TML] sword vs shotgun  
> >To: tml@travellercentral.com
> >
> > >the best, and I mean the best, adventures are those that 
> > >are "two party" adventures - one party of players against 
> > >another.  The referee can never buy or write a one-party 
> > >adventure that is as tense, hilarious, or as emotional as 
> > >a "two party".

<<snip>>
> 
> It's an old idea.  And, it's a very good way to deal with 
> those in the playing group who want to be sociopaths.  The 
> referee doesn't have to kill them - the other party can try 
> their best.  In my case, however, it came out even more often 
> than not - being the "good" party doesn't make you 
> bulletproof.

On that note, I shall repost something I said on this list several years 
ago:

"I would have to say that the nastiest "monster" a group of PCs can ever 
face is...another group of PCs. Savagely bloodthirsty, hideously 
well-armed, and possessed of a certain low cunning. (Just like the first 
group of PCs.)"

This and many more fine quotes may be found on Mark Urbin's Web site:

http://www.urbin.net/EWW/sigs/rpg-sigs.html




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 01:58:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 00:58:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <39.2b0d8f9c.2a7ce6d3@aol.com>

 >A config 7, dispersed structure, ship has the
 >highest to hit target of any configuration.
 >A high agility, high computer size A or less
 >meson escort is the hardest to hit of any ship.
 >Other weapons find it hard to hit with as well.
 >Additionally, is features the lowest hull cost.

I'm afraid we've been talking two different systems.  I've been talking CT 
HG1, but everyone seems to be talking about something else.  CT HG1 only 
distinguishes between hull sizes on to-hit adjustments, not hull types.  I'm 
afraid I don't know HG2, or for that matter any of the others, and it seems 
HG1 has been deprecated.

That's what I get for jumping in.

 >Costing
 >DD price range, they threaten any capital ship scoring weapon
 >and computer hits through radiation hits and all but Critical and
 >shattered fuel hits on hits and penetrate and score interior hits.

Yeah, see in HG1 a factor 9 meson cannot penetrate any meson screen of 3 or 
higher, and any capital ship is going to have meson screen 9.

Thanks.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 02:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 01:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <a9.2b679017.2a7ce930@aol.com>

 >>  >The Germans, and
 >>  >particularly the Japanese were horribly dehumanized.  We made our 
enemies
 >>  >into monsters so then it was OK to exterminate them.
 >> 
 >> If there was any dehumanizing of the Germans and Japanese, they did it
 >> themselves through their own brutality. 
 > 
 >Um, all of them, even the children?

Our side can do no wrong.  The other side is utterly evil, in all matters, in 
all ways, at all times, in all circumstances.

"The emergency food we're dropping to the Afghans might make them sick 'cause 
they're not used to it."
"The Taliban is poisoning the food we're dropping!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 02:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 01:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
Message-ID: <2d9a852d8ef1.2d8ef12d9a85@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net>
Date: Thursday, August 1, 2002 3:32 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)

> Rob Davenport <rgd@infinet.com> wrote:
> >	Ed Wood's "Starship Troopers" 
> 
> Kenji Schwartz gave a good rant compairing ST to an Ed Wood movie.
> You can find it on my SciFi sig quote page.

Another Kenji Klassic, also from Mr. Urbin's Web site:

In certain senses, I think the PMPP [*] is the ultimate distillation of 
the Traveller spirit. Technophallocentric belloeroticism. -- Kenji 
Schwarz on the Traveller Mailing List.

Upon reading that, I realized that the phrase can be modified to be 
singable to "Supercalifragilisticexpialidocius" (or however the heck 
that damnable song's title is spelled):

Everybody now!

<sings>

"Supertechnopallocentric belloeroticism...."

</sings>

[*] For those of you just tuning in, this refers to a pelvic-mounted 
plasma gun.
 
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/sigs/rpg-sigs.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 02:13:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 01:13:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in traveller)
Message-ID: <199.acd8aa3.2a7cea81@aol.com>

 >It's an old saw that military service is extended periods of
 >boredom punctuated by short periods of stark terror.  Imagine
 >if an army used sleeper ships to move their troops around...
 >soldiers whose military service consisted of sleeping through
 >the extended periods of boredom, and only being awake for the
 >periods of stark terror.
 >
 >That kind of setup might be cheap when it came to starship
 >life support costs, but I imagine the impact on the soldiers'
 >psyches would be extreme.

Not if they were only asleep during jumps.  "Good morning, we're passing 
through Regina and the captain decided you should all spend some money there 
for a few days."  And soldiers won't be spending years on ships anyway -- 
they'll only be there when in transport.  Kind of hard to practice armored 
maneuvers on the mess deck.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 02:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 01:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] damning (OT)
Message-ID: <18c.bcc9ac6.2a7cf019@aol.com>

 >> I've seen a handful.  Offsetting this, I've seen companies where every
 single
 >> corporal  and several sergeants get busted down for sex with the female
 >> privates.  I've seen active duty females refuse orders to perform physical
 >> tasks (like dumping trash cans) and tell sergeants to their face to "get a
 >> male to do it".  I've seen females who cannot, and I mean cannot, pass
 their
 >> limited physical fitness tests, who can't do  even seven pushups, but who
 >> still remain in units.  I've seen females who cannot climb the ladder from
 >> the shaft alley to the second deck and who have to be helped.  I've seen
 >> females finish their expensive training and then promptly be discharged
 >> because they're pregnant.
 >
 >Yeah, and I've seen human beings who were skilled and competent and
 >determined and motivated and just plain better than me being kept down
 >because they were born female. You can't damn half the human race on a
 >generality.

"Damn"?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 02:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 01:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prejudice (OT)
Message-ID: <c3.26abf399.2a7cf0f5@aol.com>

 >> > Whatever benefits they bring I think are outweighed by the negatives.
 I'd
 >> > dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their
 >> > traditional roles of nurse and clerk.  If the US military is so hard-up
 for
 >> > warm bodies that it really needs females, then I say reinstitute the
 WACS and
 >> > WAVES and whatever else, with their own standards and their own chain of
 >> > command, and put them in charge of stateside facilities like hospitals
 and
 >> > supply depots and personnel offices so men are freed up for more forward
 >> > duties.
 >
 >
 >Such sweeping prejudice. I am impressed.

I don't think recognition of a general trend of experience is prejudice.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 02:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 01:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: max hull size
Message-ID: <44.23c85f34.2a7cf2bd@aol.com>

 >> >Again, I'm assuming CT.  Let's see .... at tech 12, max hull size is 
 >>199,999 
 >> 
 >>   <1 MT (USP X) per HG2, pps. 26 & 28.
 >>
 >>Sorry -- CT HG.  I don't know what HG2 does.
 >
 >  OMG - someone _uses_ HG1?! I only got a copy by accident...
 >neat read, though.

Heck, I thought that _was_ Traveller.  Guess I'm a dinosaur.

 > BTW, do the Reprints include both editions of HG?

Don't know, but I don't think so.  They're just copies of the originals, 
typos and all.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 03:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 02:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Meduim Navies
Message-ID: <d0.2aca14d8.2a7cf556@aol.com>

 >What would the Imperuim see as the maximum allowable size, maximum
 >allowable quantitative/qualitative weaponry, for a mercenary ship?

Book 4 lists an example ticket calling for a reinforced brigade with full 
equipment, so that's probably the max.  I've drawn up a troop ship with J3 
that carried a battalion, and it was 19,000 tons.  So, I'd say either four 
20,000 ton ships or one 80,000 ton one.

As for ship's weapons, I've never seen a specified limit.  Presumably major 
governments are the only ones that can afford serious ship weapons.  I'd say 
no limit on defensive weapons and that a few factor 4 laser batteries would 
not draw attention, but anything more would be a fleet action weapon and I 
wouldn't think a mercenary unit would be interested in fleet actions.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 03:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 02:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] max hull size
Message-ID: <3c.222acf08.2a7cf724@aol.com>

 >> Sorry -- CT HG.  I don't know what HG2 does.
 >
 >HG2 is CT Book 5: High Guard, 2nd edition.
 >
 >It was published in 1980, replacing the 1st edition published in 1979. There
 >was a series of articles in JTAS at the time on updating your version from
 >1st to 2nd to save you buying a new copy. Obviously this passed you by.
 >
 >The version in the CT Reprints is HG2.

Man, I'm messing up left and right here.  Well then I have HG2, but I'm still 
lost.  The numbers and ship specifications I'm seeing posted I don't 
understand at all.  Nothing fits the HG2 book.  Meson gun factor 9 boats that 
are threats to capital ships?  I guess no-one uses HG anymore.

Thanks.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 03:12:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 02:12:04 2002
Subject: [TML] max hull size
In-Reply-To: <3c.222acf08.2a7cf724@aol.com>
References: <3c.222acf08.2a7cf724@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4382.64.8.3.28.1028365894.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

> Man, I'm messing up left and right here.  Well then I have HG2, but I'm
> still  lost.  The numbers and ship specifications I'm seeing posted I
> don't  understand at all.  Nothing fits the HG2 book.  Meson gun factor
> 9 boats that  are threats to capital ships?  I guess no-one uses HG
> anymore.

From my memory: you can have meson and partical accellerator bays as 100
ton and 50 ton bays.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 03:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 02:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <18f.bcbf05f.2a7cf8de@aol.com>

 >I am laughing too hard to issue the requisite command.

I'm sure Karen Hultgreen laughed too.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 03:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 02:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <120.13e4a72a.2a7cf985@aol.com>

 >Most Traveller parties need a full time lawyer - but how many 
 >have you seen with one?

But since the Imperium does not concern itself with local laws, then how much 
good would a lawyer do in a party that travelled from world to world?  He 
would be just as ignorant of local laws as the party.  In fact, he might get 
them into even more trouble.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 03:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Sat Aug  3 02:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Pilots of the Future (was: warship optimization)
In-Reply-To: <20020803083703.29055.32859.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentr
 al.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020803020158.009f6810@mailhost.efn.org>

On Fri, 2 Aug 2002 22:27:48 -0700, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:

>More than a theory actually.  The number of women being trained
>as fighter pilots continues to climb, and there are many predictions
>that the number of female fighter pilots will surpass the number of
>male fighter pilots in not all that many years.

Just in time, some would say, for teleoperated drones to make the whole 
profession obsolete.  There's already quite a bit of "Captain Kirk vs. M-5" 
bluster going back and forth, with the pilots shouting the loudest; they 
already dread Predator duty, which is mostly sitting in a trailer watching 
camera feeds that might as well be simulator screens.  They claim that a 
few weeks of this can dull their edge.  Most of them are smart enough to 
see where the trend inevitably leads... never being able to climb into a 
real plane and put their gonads on the line again.

(And if you think the females are any less macho than the males, you 
haven't heard the old axiom about having to work twice as hard just to make 
the grade.  In fact, the new face of feminism seems to be about proving 
that women can be every bit as stupid and self-destructive as men -- check 
out the rise of female binge drinking on campuses nationwide.)


>   Women in general
>are shorter, lighter, and have better resistance to g forces (ie they
>don't black out as quickly) all of which are very useful qualities in
>modern fighter aircraft.

Of course, if we do go to an all-drone force, different qualities will be 
selected for.  Like being good at video games... which brings us back to 
the start of this sub-thread, doesn't it?



--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 03:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 02:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <40.21b2d6f0.2a7cfea7@aol.com>

 >And I daresay that if we have women serving in full combat capacity
 >under the regimes of either seperate standards (i.e. where they must
 >not meet the same standards as men) or reduced standards (e.g. I
 >understand that two-man stretcher teams are now four or more), we will
 >see plenty of human beings who die miserably because their comrades
 >are not up to the task.

Actually, I'll bet we won't.  The military is talking now about how much 
future warfare will be on the level of special ops, utilizing local troops 
and only sending in special forces to coordinate bomb strikes, like in 
Afghanistan.

Army?  What army?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 03:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 02:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Pilots of the Future (was: warship optimization)
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020803020158.009f6810@mailhost.efn.org>
Message-ID: <002e01c23ad4$cbcbbd00$1d17bd50@martinjd>

> Of course, if we do go to an all-drone force, different qualities will be 
> selected for.  Like being good at video games... which brings us back to 
> the start of this sub-thread, doesn't it?

Main problem with drones is the ECM/ECCM/Jamming seesaw. 

And control lags over combat distances in space, OC.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 03:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 02:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] prejudice (OT)
References: <c3.26abf399.2a7cf0f5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003b01c23ad5$b1af5ca0$1d17bd50@martinjd>

>  I'd
>  >> > dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their
>  >> > traditional roles of nurse and clerk.

>I don't think recognition of a general trend of experience is prejudice.

You've just stated that you'd deny every single woman who wanted to and
could be good enough, the chance to try to be what she wanted, on the basis
of your - by definition limited - experience. Maybe not prejudice, but I
don't have a word for it.

I believe in absolute standards - good enough for the combat area is the
same for everyone, and yes, more men than women are. That's reality. But if
someone is good enough and actually wants to be there, then they have the
right to be.

I have a 7stone, 5 foot woman in my self-defense class. She's not got any of
the right instincts, but she doggedly keeps on trying to learn because she
feels the need. She's small and weak, and quite honestly her capabilities
are poor for the foreseeable future. Potentially, though, she might be able
to develop real capability to protect herself., And she WANTS TO.

Should I refuse to teach her because the chances of success are slim? I
think not.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:01:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:01:06 2002
Subject: [TML] damning (OT)
References: <18c.bcc9ac6.2a7cf019@aol.com>
Message-ID: <004201c23ad6$14a70e20$1d17bd50@martinjd>

>  >
>  >Yeah, and I've seen human beings who were skilled and competent and
>  >determined and motivated and just plain better than me being kept down
>  >because they were born female. You can't damn half the human race on a
>  >generality.
>
> "Damn"?

Condemn to medicrity, to second-class citizenship, to be denied things that
they want for arbitrary reasons, despite their determination, talent and
potential.

What you seem to want to do is to set limits for people.

That's a form of damnation to me.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] System Gen Help
References: <20020802001136.17476.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000201c23ad5$0a9e8080$7400a8c0@imogen>

Paul Walker wrote:
> I am doing an extended system generation.  I rolled
> for #6 to be the max orbit.  I also rolled for 2
> captured planets.  One is in orbit 6.3 and the other
> is in 6.0
> 
> Orbit 6 and 5 are both SGG's.  4 is the mainworld and
> the habitable zone.
> 
> Is this legitimate?  Or do I need to move the captured
> planet in orbit 6.0 to somewhere else.

I don't know of any written rule to cover this (someone speak  up
if they know of one)  but  I  don't  see  a  problem  with  this.
Captured planets aren't just extra planets, they are plants  that
were added to the system after it formed.  The max orbits  number
just means max number of *normally forming* orbits (unless  we're
talking about companion stars).  And the orbit  number only tells
you the *average distance* from the star.  What I tend to do (and
would do in this case) is to give a combination of  some  or  all
of: make the orbit highly eccentric, or highly  inclined  to  the
system's orbital plane, or make it's motion retrograde,  or  give
the planet a high axial tilt.  Probably all.

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"
References: <11c.14d66d9e.2a7ce27f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <005301c23ad6$a4ab5760$1d17bd50@martinjd>

>
> I rest my case.
>
> "It's Milosivic's fault we bombed a convoy of farmers!"
> "It's Arafat's fault we bombed that apartment building!"
> "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a convoy of inauguration representatives
on
> the open road!"
>
> If I were to act with this level of disregard even in defense of my own
> children, I'd be in jail.  McVeigh was right -- "collateral damage" covers
a
> multitude of sins.

This sort of thing happens in war all the time. War is a tapestry of misery
and suffering, most of it needless.

People demand that we go to do what must be done ( or sometimes protest
about it and refuse to see why it must be done) then condemn the military
when innocents get hurt.

The answer? Learn to get along and abolish conflict.
Until then, we must accept the paradox and try to do the best we can not to
cause needless suffering. But we will, all the same.
That's why this world sucks.






From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:07:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:07:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <2cce1d2ceb69.2ceb692cce1d@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <006001c23ad7$072d8ac0$1d17bd50@martinjd>

>
>
> > Matt, Martin,
> > I agree with both points presented below.  I think fighters should
> > be more
> > effective in a coordinated, massed attack than they are
> > individually.  I also
> > agree that 'coordinated' is the key term.
> >

I'm thinking that an initial "battery" attack would be permissible, with
"friction" throws required to avoid losing cohesion and becoming just a mob
of armed gnats. Breaking off and reforming would be necessary.

You might also consider fighter control bays aboard carriers?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:08:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:08:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <82.1f5501bd.2a7cdb36@aol.com>
Message-ID: <006b01c23ad7$2b16f660$1d17bd50@martinjd>


> >Has anyone noted the set up with regards to the number of starports that
>  >can produce starships versus those that can only builld system ships?
And
>  >to make matters worse, there aren't that many high tech star ports
around
>
> I have.  It does make a big difference, doesn't it?  "If my ships are
cheaper
> I'll be able to build more of them!"  No you can't.
>

See above comment that HG/TCS does not adequately provide a realistic naval
warfare system. But it is a cool game.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:08:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:08:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <182.c122206.2a7d0578@aol.com>

 >But this is the TML, and one supposes that in the 57th century, the measure
 >of a sophont's fitness for a particular duty is tied to their ability to
 >perform it.  One may assume that the Imperium establishes baseline
 >requirements for, say an MOS, and holds to those standards regardless of
 >race or gender.  This may result in a higher proportion of males in a
 >particular MOS, perhaps females in another.

Does MOS really describe the job requirements?  Sure, anyone can sit at a 
desk and process paperwork -- but if paratroopers land nearby then I think it 
becomes clear that what your MOS is and what your actual job is are two 
different things.  Relying strictly on MOS leaves your army inflexible and 
brittle.  The marine's approach is good -- no matter what you go on to be, 
you start out as an infantryman.

And I think you'd see quite a bit of racial segregation.  For example, as I 
understand, in the old Imperial Japanese Army a man could be rejected for 
service because of too much body odor.  I'm sure a unit of mixed races would 
have many similar distracting conflicts of culture and biology.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <186.bc7cec0.2a7cc747@aol.com>
Message-ID: <007901c23ad7$ae247640$1d17bd50@martinjd>

>  >
>  >And again, why do you want this? Barring me swallowing some and
suffering
>  >some strange kind of poisoning, no amount of flies can beat me in a
straight
>  >fight. My feeling is that fightrers are good for screening and keeping
>  >merchies in line. Big ships are for killing big ships.
>
> Yeah.  But Traveller is an RPG, not just a pseudo-scientific wargame.
It's
> nice to be able to have a Luke Skywalker in an X-wing.

Well, yes. The Death Star attack was more like a one-off asymmetric attack
than a regular combat operation. I'm willing the believe (for gaming and fun
purposes) in such a one-off "we have an opportunity" operations. But not in
routine combat.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:14:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:14:09 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
Message-ID: <fc.1bc430d6.2a7d06b7@aol.com>

 >Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
 >big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.

What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other sensor systems 
you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Firearms in Vacumn
In-Reply-To: <3D43E470.DA5F22D1@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20803.011715.6z8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> 
>> In mail you write:
>> 
>> > "Robert Uhl " wrote:
>> >>
>> >> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
>> >> >
>> >> > No, but guns *have* been fired underwater (this is a somewhat
>> >> > different situation than firing one with a barrel full of water).
>> >>
>> >> Anyone here have any experience doing this?  I know that it's supposed
>> >> to work, but I've never worked up the courage or folly necessary to
>> >> play with it.  I've a lot of respect for Things What Go Boom, and I've
>> >> little desire to annoy them...
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
>> >> If your franchise is not secured by force of personal arms, you are a
>> >> subject, not a citizen.                               --H. Beam Piper
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> TML mailing list
>> >> TML@travellercentral.com
>> >> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>> >
>> > I launched a model rocket from underwater after seeing it in "The Model
>> > Roceteer" It was very
>> > impressive.
>> 
>> Do you still have any copies of The Model Rocketeer? Mine got lost a
>> long time ago :-(
>
> I think so, I'll have a look next time I'm cleaning that part of the garage. 
> Anything in particular
> or do you want that article on underwater launches?

Well, I'd like to have a set of the silly things, or at least a decent
scan of them.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:19:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:19:09 2002
Subject: [TML] missile capacities
Message-ID: <120.13e4a732.2a7d07e4@aol.com>

 >> They are too inefficient to kill, yes.  But they can still be a royal pain
 >> in the ass.  In the end though capital ships can kill them but they can't
 >> kill capital ships.  Eventually they run out of missiles.
 >
 >Only in the real world, not in HG. : )

HG says absolutely nothing about it.  Show me a hundred ton bay and a 
physical object, and I can tell you how many of those objects will fit into 
the bay.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <1a1.64c8bb6.2a7cc59a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <008601c23ad9$12eafee0$1d17bd50@martinjd>


> >Let's turn this on its head. Can you explain how this model of yours
>  >works...? How do you plan to fight a war with it?
>
> Recall, I'm working with CT HG (the original -- I understand there is an
HG2
> out?).
>
> I put a fleet together for the Spinward Marches.  Being what it is, it is
> primarily intended to be defensive.  Most of it is stationed at Jewell,
> Efate, and Regina, with task forces at Vilis, Lunion, and Glisten.  If the
> Zhodies send their main fleet body in a straight-on attack then we'll
decide
> the issue then and there.  If they send the main body on an end run by
Vilis
> heading for my high-population worlds then I'll just have to try to catch
> them while sending in two or three task forces to try and blockade Cronor,
> cutting off their supplies.  If that attack succeeds then they will be
forced
> to retreat -- if they ever find out.  Meanwhile I'll be attempting to
engage
> their main body with my main body.  If we meet then again we'll decide the
> issue.  If they scatter to spread havoc then I'll break up into units that
> hopefully will always outnumber their groups and just continue to pursue
> them, scooping them up as I find them while also leaving some task forces
on
> the border hoping to catch their isolated elements as they try to leave.
> Anyway, that's what I envision.

Okay. The Zhos have thrown large numbers of light cruisers and "merchant
raiders" (armed merchant ships posing as legitimate traffic) across the
border and are raiding lightly defended ports, shooting up your logistics
train and the Sector Duke is yelling at you that dozens of world governments
are yelling at HIM for protection. Many of these raids are by ships in the
light or even heavy cruiser class. Some sightings mention capital ships and
small task groups. They've probably got support ships out there somewhere
too.

Zho fleet elements have struck at weak targets on the border, but you don't
know it they retired afterward or are advancing.
Your intelligence is a mess of vessel reports, and while the attacks on
minor worlds are trivial from a military standpoint, those are imperial
citizens being shot up. Some border  worlds (again, soft targets) have been
assaulted by ground forces and may now be under occupation. The sector duke
wants those worlds retaken. He wants the raids stopped.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:24:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:24:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonabo Class Missile Frigate
Message-ID: <c1.24afabf6.2a7d092f@aol.com>

 Incidentally, it goes without saying that these things kill TL E- ships
 quite nicely.

TL E is very vulnerable.  The meson screens and nuke dampers are weak.

I think this is a better design:

1000 ton hull
J4
M6
Armor4
100 ton missile bay (holds 100 salvos)
etc

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Baboon Class Missile Frigate
Message-ID: <19c.6563ee4.2a7d0bfa@aol.com>

 >A trillion credits worth of these things will only mission kill one or two
 >capital ships per turn, and will suffer considerable losses in return.
 >
 >They probably don't work out as a match for capital ships, but they are
 >close enough to be useful, I suspect.

Assuming CT HG2, if you put armor 4 on them they are very difficult to deal 
with.  I've run simulations of this several times, and each time it's a draw. 
 The capital ships can kill them, but only a few at a time.  By the time 
hundreds of them are forced into the reserve you have dozens repairing their 
way out and back into the front line each turn, with a steady-state of about 
2 on-line to 1 in-reserve.  Meanwhile they sweep the capital ships of weapons 
at a steady rate.  It's close, but by the time the frigates are ready to win 
they run out of missiles.  It's curiously balanced.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:38:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:38:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <a8.f784519.2a7cbf66@aol.com>
Message-ID: <009b01c23adb$506d89c0$1d17bd50@martinjd>

>  >
>  >If you spread out a mix of powerful and less powerful commerce raiders,
>  >you'll pull more fleet assets away. That's half the point.
>
> I'll be concentrating on the core fleet of the enemy.  If I defeat them,
then
> I'll round up the commerce raiders at leisure.  That's my whole point.

Yes indeed. All we need is a decisive battle and we've won. Of course,
sometimes you can't have one. While the main fleets search for one another,
you get nibbled at, and your political will gets eroded.

> Good points all.  Sure you'll have revenue losses -- can you imagine what
the
> Soviet Union's revenue losses were like? -- but if in the meantime the
main
> enemy fleet is engaged and defeated then that won't matter.

IF. But what if the enemy uses his fleet in being as a threat, a pin, while
he crumbles at you? What if he WON'T fight that decisive battle?

>"The only thing
> more expensive than a war is losing."  As for morale and demands for
> protection, the civilians will know their best chance for protection is a
> fleet victory.

As they're bombed and shot up by a cruiser? As they hear more reports of
merchant ships and outposts killed by raiders? No they won't.

Modern war - 4th generation war - is fought in the living rooms of the
populace. Manipulating them is one of the keys to victory. Give them enough
uncountered threats, enough needless deaths, and they'll be demanding peace.


>One can point to any number of instances where stubborn
> insistence on city protection contrary to military necessity has caused
the
> defeat of an army.

And yet you have to do it sometimes. War is not purely a military matter. It
is the attempt by one state to impose its will upon the other, by military
and... other...means.

>Further, the loudest calls for protection will be from
> those worlds capable of building their own local defense forces.  As for
the
> missiles, yes, that's a major problem if you are missile-heavy, and I
think
> the best way to solve it is to have large stocks on hand in protected
bases
> before the war and not try to manufacture what you need during a war.

Procurement and budget issues. No force ever went to war with enough
ammunition. And once you move from base and fiore some missiles, you have to
get resupply. Either by goijng back to rearm, or by using vulnerable
logistics ships.

>
>  >>If
>  >> trade is truly a major issue and lifeline then a massed herd of
raiders
> will
>  >> be crippling regardless of any other fleet elements employed.
>  >
>  >Until it inevitably gets squashed. Dispersed raiding works better, other
>  >than for targeted strikes, say on a critical system to massacre the
>  >concentration of merhcant shipping there.
>
> It will only get squashed if it gets caught by a superior force.

Which will happen if there is just one target at large.

>If your
> opponent disperses, then dispersing yourself simply plays his game at his
> level, but staying concentrated leaves all of his dispersed elements
unable
> to oppose you.

You can of course partially disperse or disperse and form some big and some
small raider groups. But raiding en masse is more of a targeted strike - hit
and leave. It's not really viable as a tactic, because raider forces are by
definition inferior to fleet units, and that's what they'll face if they
hand an opportunity to the opposition.

>
>  >Assuming he's rich enough to afford a fleet like that. Guerre de Course
has
>  >always been the weaker nation's option.
>
> If you are richer than your opponent then there's little he can do.

Who won the Vietnam war again?

>If you
> are equal, then if you're rich enough to build a significant escort/patrol
> fleet and scatter it everywhere then he's rich enough to build an
equal-value
> capital fleet and slowly march it through your scattered escorts.

You're thniking of everything in terms of a mapboard and counters. I'm
discussing warfare. I already mentioned the politoical necessity to catch
raiders etc so I won't bring it up again. But I will say that finding and
catching raiders is a ship-intensive and impressively difficult task, though
if you keep at it you'll succeed. Just remember that you can't be sure where
his forces are or what they're doing to you while you're marching through
his escorts.

>
>  >> I don't think you can get "greater concentration of force" with "less
> ships".
>  >
>  >I have 6 ships, you have 12. I draw 8 of your ships away with a feint,
and
>  >gain local superiority. You sent them all? Great. I smash your base. You
>  >sent none? Well, if my recon is up to it I'll know. Next time I just
smash
>  >something elsewhere , maybe with pairs of my ships, while you sit tight
and
>  >wait for the big clash at JUtland.
>
> And if I outfeint you?  I think you're assuming a defensive and dumb
enemy,
> with you holding all the offense and recon-intelligence cards.  If you
have
> six and I have twelve I'll just guard the base with six and chase you with
> the other six.
>
> I'm about done here.

The feint/outfeint is one of the risks of war. I may be willing to fight
your six with mine, and trust to my ships and crews to win it for me - this
sort of writing-down of the enemy at the best odds you can get was German
High Seas Fleet policy in WWI.

As to a dumb enemy... fair comment. I've heard the "enemy" make a number of
sweeping pronounbcements of the "oh, I'd just" that make me confident that
once reality intruded, friction would render this enemy less capable than he
thinks.





From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:39:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:39:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIELACEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <00a601c23adb$79171580$1d17bd50@martinjd>

> >From: cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng)
> >
> >Even today, I am still amazed just how lucky the Germans were.  Even with
> >all their planning, they still could not have predicted the good fortune
> >they actually got.
>
> Possible explanations for this run of luck:
>
> 1)

There was a good deception plan, and some excellent planning regarding
timing and execution. They made an opportunity to get lucky...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <3.0.5.16.20020802200157.46a789a6@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <00c701c23adb$e7d770a0$1d17bd50@martinjd>

> The 50s ended, my dear sir.  As long as they can do the job.  Oh, and an
> NCO having sex with a solider in the same chain of command is a violation
> of the UCMJ.  They deserved to get busted.
> -- 

Yeah! All hail Doug. Doug is Wise. 
For a 7 year-old penguin-obsessive....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <20020802231503.19852.60096.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <3D4B3637.35538EB8@mailbag.com>
Message-ID: <00e801c23adc$47c368c0$1d17bd50@martinjd>

> 
> Not quite Clint, yet even Clint had some intellegent moments.
.


You mean Clif!

Hey, everyone, he invoked Clif!

Clif has been Invoked!


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <112.1523c9f7.2a7c50e1@aol.com><014a01c23a78$a159d220$5d0bbd50@martinjd> <m3znw4epbc.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <00f701c23adc$73358a60$1d17bd50@martinjd>

> And I daresay that if we have women serving in full combat capacity
> under the regimes of either seperate standards (i.e. where they must
> not meet the same standards as men) or reduced standards (e.g. I
> understand that two-man stretcher teams are now four or more), we will
> see plenty of human beings who die miserably because their comrades
> are not up to the task.
>
> And I hardly think that shielding from death and destruction is
> `damning.'  Rather a nice thing to do, as a matter of fact.

Quite. We must have absolute standards for everyone, but those who make the
grade should be allowed to serve.

The present system of differential requirements is just plain daft.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
References: <fc.1bc430d6.2a7d06b7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <011801c23adc$bdd0f780$1d17bd50@martinjd>

> >Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
>  >big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.
>
> What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other sensor
systems
> you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?


Mines, even of a CAPTOR type, don't have much area coverage. You'd need a
lot of them to cover an area, though orbits and other choke points are a
possibility.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 05:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 04:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
Message-ID: <3015092fe19a.2fe19a301509@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Flykiller@aol.com
Date: Saturday, August 3, 2002 1:13 pm
Subject: [TML] mines

> >Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
> >big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.
> 
> What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other 
> sensor systems 
> you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?

I recommend you read Bruce Alan Macintosh's Definitive Sensor Rules for 
T4/FF&S2 for a complete discussion of sensors.  Passive sensors IRL 
would have ranges in space significanly better than those of active 
sensors such as radar.

http://traveller.mu.org/house/sensor.rules.html



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 05:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 04:16:03 2002
Subject: C**f (was: Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller)
Message-ID: <30360530300f.30300f303605@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: MJ Dougherty <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Date: Saturday, August 3, 2002 1:54 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller

> > 
> > Not quite Clint, yet even Clint had some intellegent moments.
> .
> 
> 
> You mean Clif!
> 
> Hey, everyone, he invoked Clif!
> 
> Clif has been Invoked!

Is that the TML equivalent of Godwin's Law?  ;-)

http://www.godwinslaw.com/

And yes, I remember the Days of C**f.... :-P

I refer the newcomers to the list to the fourth Ditzie pic on Jesse 
DeGraff's page:

http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/ditzie.htm


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 05:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 04:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Acceptable losses
Message-ID: <3073a4307395.3073953073a4@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: MJ Dougherty <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Date: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 6:45 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Acceptable losses

> 
> > Brian Caball says
> > >What about the whole "over the top" attitude of WWI? Pouring
> > >thousands of lives into suicidal charges for far less gain
> >
> > Yes, for a gain of a few yards, or no gain at all.
> >
> > Some people I know do *not* believe the casualty figures from
> > WW I.  They insist that it's simply not possible.
> >
> > I keep pointing out references in history books to whole
> > regiments being gunned down by machine gun fire.  They insist
> > that no men would do such a thing, especially if they had
> > seen it done before
> 
> See previous comment about French refusal to continue this way, at 
> leastuntil confidence in the gain was restored....

Then there's the pair of quotes that begin one chapter of T.R. 
Fehrenbach's _This Kind of War: A Study In Unpreparedness_ (quoted from 
memory):

"The capture of this hill is worth ten thousand men!" - French general 
on the Western Front during WW I
"Generous bastard, isn't he?" - The commander of the lead assault 
battalion




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 05:21:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 04:21:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Transporters and Tractor Beams
In-Reply-To: <3D446DE8.9002.D95DFD@localhost>
Message-ID: <20803.035628.8c6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On 28 Jul 2002 at 2:22, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> In mail you write:
>> 
>> > Well, I was thinking, if the Imperium were to invent (or
>> > retro-engineer) them and make them available on their ships. I take
>> > your point on size, I was thinking about them being Trek-sized I
>> > guess.  I know a Trek transporter extends above and below the
>> > occupiable deck some way so they'd be several tons in displacement
>> > and would probably require a good old suck on the power plant so they
>> > would probably be a no-no for player sized ships anyway.
>> 
>> Remember, Voyager and DS-9 had them in *runabouts*. 
>> 
>> And frankly, I agree with Niven's comments in his essay "the Theory and
>> Practice of Teleportation".
>> 
>> A single-ended teleport device (ie you only need equipment at one end)
>> is the recipe for a *very* short war.
>
> There was an A. C. Clarke short story about this. The Martians put a 
> nuke-armed ship over each major city on Earth to 'encourage' our co-
> operation. This merely encouraged the development of a teleportation 
> system. After the bombs were sent through they sent people to Mars to 
> have a look. IIRC the main demand was for archaeologists to sifts 
> through the ruins.

Actually, that was Clarke's *first* published story.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 05:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 04:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <39.2b0d8fbb.2a7d17c6@aol.com>

 >>Whatever benefits they bring I think are outweighed by the negatives.  I'd 
 >>dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their 
 >>traditional roles of nurse and clerk.
 >
 >I knew many excellent female soldiers, who pulled their weight and then
 >some.

I've known several too.  One particular medic and a particularly effective 
battalion XO and one hard little DI come to mind.  But the majority of the 
one's I've met were passive and weak or simply -- well, like most of you feel 
about me.  Some were flatly disobedient, and no-one would touch them because 
they were female.  Many were flatly unqualified physically, but they were 
female and so were kept.  I was, and am, bottom of the barrel physically, and 
I always had great difficulty passing any of the PT tests, but I could run 
circles around the vast majority of the females I've seen, no exaggeration.  
Oh I helped them, I encouraged them.  As a sergeant it was my job.  "Come on, 
you can do it!  Get yourself up!" on her sixth and last needed push-up.   She 
couldn't do it.  The (male) DI's gathered round her, and marked her record as 
passing, and she moved happily along.  Running alongside another who's about 
to fail her 24 minute PT:  "I'm dying!"  "You are _not_ going to die, no 
matter how much it hurts.  Now there's an injured man up there, you are his 
only hope, keep going!  C'mon c'mon c'mon!"  She passed, crawling over the 
line at the last second.  But I think Karen Hultgreen is at the end of this 
road.  I don't think an army or a navy needs this, I don't think a nation's 
defense needs this.  And that's not damning women, and that's not prejudice.

 >I also saw many male soldiers who whined and always seemed to be on
profile.

Many?  I saw a small handful -- in boot camp.  None of them passed.  Outside 
of that, it was just normal morale problems.  My first reserve unit was top 
notch, the navy men complained but were reliable and tough, and my next 
reserve unit seemed to have nothing but capable people (except for a few 
opportunistic bureaucrats).  I can't speak to where you were, but I've been 
to some places and seen some environments, and I can't say I've seen "many" 
male whiners or sick-bay commandos.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 05:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Aug  3 04:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lawyers
Message-ID: <20020803114546.E36724505@mo130uhou.palm.net>

n Space  
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain ; boundary="----=_Part_14584_6132357.1028375146935"
X-Mailer: smtp

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:
[snip]
>Most Traveller parties need a full time lawyer - but how many  
>have you seen with one?  

Even Doc Savage kept a lawyer in his group. :-)
Useful for the high Admin skills too...

----------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 05:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 04:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes
Message-ID: <68.23ff06b1.2a7d1d9d@aol.com>

 In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head tax" or does it charge
 an income tax on its citizens for its Imperial Budget requirements?  In
 short, if the Imperial government taxes 10% of a Gross Planetary Product,
 then it would in essence be an income tax.  If it charges a flat 500 CR
 per person on a planet, then it is a head tax.  Which is it?

Either way, you can't build a fleet that expends all of your budget.

Sales tax.  Not everyone will be able to pay a head tax, and chasing down 
everyone would be tedious.  A sales tax on large fixed would be more 
efficient -- they can't hide, and everyone winds up paying through higher 
prices anyway.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 05:59:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 04:59:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Taxes
Message-ID: <85.1f38e034.2a7d1f78@aol.com>

 >TCS says its a head count

Actually, it doesn't.  It says "... ; Cr500 is the amount of naval tax paid 
by the average citizen ; ..."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith Mormon minion of Arioch)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes
References: <68.23ff06b1.2a7d1d9d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <01ee01c23ae6$45115c90$6f7ba8c0@kenneith93j41k>

I would say the imperium levees a tax on a system and it is up to the system
to figure out how to pay it. We need you to give us 1.5 b more credits, the
imperium doesn't care how you raise the funds as long as they get their
money, just as I am sure their are many local government who blame the
imperium for the high taxes the people pay but in reality it goes to their
own pockets.
ken

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comics
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you
http://www.geocities.com/J_Elric_Smith/Index.html
----- Original Message -----
From: <Flykiller@aol.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 7:50 AM
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes


> In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head tax" or does it charge
>  an income tax on its citizens for its Imperial Budget requirements?  In
>  short, if the Imperial government taxes 10% of a Gross Planetary Product,
>  then it would in essence be an income tax.  If it charges a flat 500 CR
>  per person on a planet, then it is a head tax.  Which is it?
>
> Either way, you can't build a fleet that expends all of your budget.
>
> Sales tax.  Not everyone will be able to pay a head tax, and chasing down
> everyone would be tedious.  A sales tax on large fixed would be more
> efficient -- they can't hide, and everyone winds up paying through higher
> prices anyway.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208021045440.12501-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <3D4BC838.3C66EE32@mindspring.com>

Azalais Malfoy wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 2 Aug 2002, Hurrel, Brian wrote:
> 
> >  >The Germans, and
> >  >particularly the Japanese were horribly dehumanized.  We made our enemies
> >  >into monsters so then it was OK to exterminate them.
> >
> > If there was any dehumanizing of the Germans and Japanese, they did it
> > themselves through their own brutality.
> 
> Um, all of them, even the children?
<Snip> 
> Kiri

Children can be particularly cruel. Seeing a crowd of 'redneck' children (~8 yo) calling a black
child Nigger and attacking that child with rocks cured me of the 'children are innocent' belief.
While I believe its true they learned this from their parents, it doesn't change anything from the
black childs perspective. And without some life changing experience, they are likely to grow up like
my wifes cousin and carry a 'nigger skinning knife'. 


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:14:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:14:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: troll optimization on the TML
Message-ID: <memo.572868@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <200208030048.LYB01066@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
> Mex, you need to have Fly run around the parade ground until 
> you get tired...

Now THERE's a Good Idea :-)

"Flykiller, front and centre!"

Mexal.
formerly Sergeant, 22nd (Cheshire) Regiment, British Army.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:14:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:14:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <memo.572869@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <B97089CA.67857%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
> But this is the TML, and one supposes that in the 57th century, the 
> measure
> of a sophont's fitness for a particular duty is tied to their ability to
> perform it.  One may assume that the Imperium establishes baseline
> requirements for, say an MOS, and holds to those standards regardless of
> race or gender.  This may result in a higher proportion of males in a
> particular MOS, perhaps females in another.

Indeed, that is how it should be. If a task demands physical strength or 
endurance, then you pick people with those qualitities. If the task 
requires mental agility or specific academic training, you chose someone 
who has it (or, in the case of training, who has the base ability to 
benefit from being given that training, if you have the time!).

Some things you can work around. For example, I am intolerant of cold. By 
now, I am very good at keeping myself warm! Surprised my students last 
winter, I never appeared chilly, while they were all huddled in their 
overcoats first thing on Mondays in an outlying hut that isn't heated. But 
female teachers who wear long flowing skirts can hide a multitude of 
things (like long underwear!!!) :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:15:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:15:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <memo.572870@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020802195559.46a76b08@pop.mindspring.com>
To answer your questions.

> >Me! Me! Pick me!
> 
> 1. Are you nuts?

Yes.

> 2. Really nuts?

Yes. Do I have to repeat myself?

> 3. Can you lie perfectly still while an enemy soldier urinates on you?

You think I want to move around?
 
> 4. As in #4, but it is a National Guardsman during a training mission.

And?

> 5. Do you stand and remove your hat when you hear GnySgt Carlos Hathcock
> mentioned?

Of course, don't you?

> 6. Do you believe in your heart of hearts that there is no such thing as
> friendly artillery?

Yes.
 
> 7. When walking in open areas, do you automatically check sight lines 
> and
> exfil routes?

Naturally. Doesn't everyone?
 
> 8. Do you refer to your wife as your spotter?

Nope. I don't refer to him as my wife :-)

> 9. Do you/Did you make every target at 300 meters but miss the 50 meter 
> ones?

Well, I usually hit both sets...

> 10. We mean it, are you *really* nuts?

You haven't noticed yet?

> If you answered yes to all these questions, you might have what it 
> takes.
> Just send Cr 20 and 10 7.62mm shell casings to:
> 
> Sniping for Dummies
> c/o ACQ Weapons
> Box 26, Gridlore Complex
> Lunion Up #3
> Lunion/Lunion/Spinward Marches

Mexal (not sniper-trained - in the British Army they only accept right 
handers... Grrr.)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:16:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:16:40 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes
Message-ID: <memo.572871@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <4957.64.8.3.28.1028349006.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
IMTU, the Imperium taxes its member planets. How that planet chooses to 
raise the money to meet the Imperial tax bill is up to them.

Most just hike their own income tax a fraction of a percent. 

Some, especially those who are lukewarm about their membership, charge a 
separate 'Imperial Tax' to make the point that people are being charged 
for the privilege.

Some levy the tax on what they perceive as being the benefits of belonging 
to the Imperium, such as interstellar trade.

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <39.2b0d8fbb.2a7d17c6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001401c23ae8$dcdeae40$0905bd50@martinjd>

> circles around the vast majority of the females I've seen, no
exaggeration.

On the flip side, two of my friends (female friends) are more determined and
in absolute terms more capable than half the men in our martial arts class.
They're better than many who hold higher grades. They'd be barred under your
rules.

>that's not damning women, and that's not prejudice.

Deciding the fate of half the human race - pre-judging their capabilities -
becuase of gender. Nah, that's notuing like prejudice.

Of course, the poor dears can't be expected to understand politics, manage
an estate or run a business either. Any you know? they couldn't do it. Not
until someone let them try.





From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:19:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:19:08 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208021045440.12501-100000@shell.tsoft.com> <3D4BC838.3C66EE32@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <002901c23ae9$3da4d9c0$0905bd50@martinjd>

>
> Children can be particularly cruel. Seeing a crowd of 'redneck' children
(~8 yo) calling a black
> child Nigger and attacking that child with rocks cured me of the 'children
are innocent' belief.
> While I believe its true they learned this from their parents, it doesn't
change anything from the
> black childs perspective. And without some life changing experience, they
are likely to grow up like
> my wifes cousin and carry a 'nigger skinning knife'.

They can. OC, it's easy to be cruel to someone you've dehumanized, or
watched your parents dehumanize.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:26:02 2002
Subject: JTAS Contest (was: Re: [TML] warship optimization in traveller)
References: <20020802182504.13132.61928.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <3D4AE7C4.85DCBD6E@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <3D4BCB8A.4E223775@mindspring.com>

David Shayne wrote:
> 
> > Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 20:07:38 +0300
> > From: john.groth@us.army.mil
<snip>
> >
> > [**] For those who would like to participate, just go to the
> > Starship/Vehicle Design discussion board on JTAS.  Not a subscriber?
> > Why not?  It's only $15 US per two years for biweekly issues and access
> > to archives, discussion boards and Brubek's chat room.  [And if you
> > mention that aurictech referred you, I get a free month added to _my_
> > subscription! ;-)]
> 
> Ignore this blatant self promotion and tell them davidshayne sent you.
> 
> :)
> 
> > http://jtas.sjgames.com/subscribe/

No, no. Tell them Alan Spik sent you. I'll name a ship in Glistens 100th Fleet after you. Remember
you heard that offer here first. ;p


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:27:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:27:04 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
Message-ID: <004301c23aea$9c802fc0$0905bd50@martinjd>

Just a reminder that there's stuff on the Citizens website.


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-to-the-Masses
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <004901c23aea$d61edba0$0905bd50@martinjd>

Go take a look at CotI, under "my fellow Citizens", for something
interesting.


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-to-the-Masses
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:29:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:29:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <001401c23ae8$dcdeae40$0905bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3D4C752C.26063.37AF39@localhost>

On 3 Aug 2002, at 13:25, MJ Dougherty wrote:

> Of course, the poor dears can't be expected to understand politics, manage an
> estate or run a business either. Any you know? they couldn't do it. Not until
> someone let them try.

"Women have a sort "decorative" function, rather like teapots; and you 
wouldn't expect a teapot to go around making decisions now would you?"

[Can anyone place the quote?]

ObTrav: Not a sausage that I can see.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:31:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:31:05 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <004f01c23aea$fc955ac0$0905bd50@martinjd>

also see http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/writing.html


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-to-the-Masses
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <112.1523c9f7.2a7c50e1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4BCDB5.17057FCA@mindspring.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> 
>  >In the active service I've know many fine female sailors who were competent
>  >technicians and fine seaman. And more than a few who were more competent
>  >leaders than many of the critics who bemoaned the posting of woman to ships.
> 
> I've seen a handful.  Offsetting this, I've seen companies where every single
> corporal  and several sergeants get busted down for sex with the female
> privates.  I've seen active duty females refuse orders to perform physical
> tasks (like dumping trash cans) and tell sergeants to their face to "get a
> male to do it".  I've seen females who cannot, and I mean cannot, pass their
> limited physical fitness tests, who can't do  even seven pushups, but who
> still remain in units.  I've seen females who cannot climb the ladder from
> the shaft alley to the second deck and who have to be helped.  I've seen
> females finish their expensive training and then promptly be discharged
> because they're pregnant.
> 
> Whatever benefits they bring I think are outweighed by the negatives.  I'd
> dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their
> traditional roles of nurse and clerk.  If the US military is so hard-up for
> warm bodies that it really needs females, then I say reinstitute the WACS and
> WAVES and whatever else, with their own standards and their own chain of
> command, and put them in charge of stateside facilities like hospitals and
> supply depots and personnel offices so men are freed up for more forward
> duties.

While seeing some of the same things in the early 80's, I saw very dedicated and professional women
also.
I think the real fix would be for the Sgt/PO. to issue a report chit on any female who refused an
order. The 'one' women in my shop who tried this on me wound up with 15 days extra duty and an
extreme hatred of me. But she didn't try it again in my presence. Of course she didn't offer sex to
get out of work. ;p Maybe being in the RP had something to do with it.

-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prejudice (OT)
Message-ID: <116.14e786df.2a7d2ad1@aol.com>

 >>  I'd
 >>  >> > dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their
 >>  >> > traditional roles of nurse and clerk.
 >
 >>I don't think recognition of a general trend of experience is prejudice.
 >
 >You've just stated that you'd deny every single woman who wanted to and
 >could be good enough, the chance to try to be what she wanted, on the basis
 >of your - by definition limited - experience. Maybe not prejudice, but I
 >don't have a word for it.

I'm not the only one with this limited experience.  But I don't have a word 
for it either.  

One finds precisely this same discrimination against 40 year olds.  Some can 
handle it, sure, but 40 year olds can't join because enough of them have 
sufficient problems that it's just not worth it to the army to sort through 
it.  One finds similar discrimination against prior-service -- they do their 
best to keep you out, I know from personal experience, and if you do get back 
in you get _no_ breaks.  I don't have a problem with either form of 
discrimination because I know each deals with a certain problem set, and I'm 
saying that a similar sort of problem set exists in females in the military. 
Does this damn 40 year olds?  Does this damn women?

 >I believe in absolute standards - good enough for the combat area is the
 >same for everyone, and yes, more men than women are. That's reality. But if
 >someone is good enough and actually wants to be there, then they have the
 >right to be.

There is no right to be in the military.

 >I have a 7stone, 5 foot woman in my self-defense class. She's not got any of
 >the right instincts, but she doggedly keeps on trying to learn because she
 >feels the need. She's small and weak, and quite honestly her capabilities
 >are poor for the foreseeable future. Potentially, though, she might be able
 >to develop real capability to protect herself., And she WANTS TO.
 >
 >Should I refuse to teach her because the chances of success are slim? I
 >think not.

And good heavens, I agree.  But joining the army is not the same.  The army 
needs people it can definitely train now, that it can depend on to be able to 
do certain things now, and that are tough enough to get it done now.  Most 
women don't meet some of those criteria, and bringing in large numbers of 
them in the hope that a few will rise to what is required is the same as 
bringing in a large number of 40 year olds in the hope that some of them will 
rise to what is required.  Whatever the gain here and there, the effort 
overall is counter-productive.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:49:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:49:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Meduim Navies
References: <3D4B1F7E.736A3F94@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3D4BD0E3.F1507CBD@mindspring.com>

Roseberry wrote:
> 
> This may have gotten lost in my last post and the minor flame spat
> going on, so I'll throw it out again and see if anyone bites.
> 
> What would the Imperuim see as the maximum allowable size, maximum
> allowable quantitative/qualitative weaponry, for a mercenary ship?
> 
> Presumabley they would frown on paws and meson guns, but would they
> allow big bay weapons?
> 
IMTU spinal mounts of any type and meson bays are in the same class 'weapons of mass destruction'
That said, registered mercenary units are able to get other types of bay weapons, as are papered
privateers. 


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <fc.1bc430d6.2a7d06b7@aol.com>
References: <fc.1bc430d6.2a7d06b7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020803224859.A16270@freeman.little-possums.net>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
>  >Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
>  >big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.
> 
> What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other sensor systems 
> you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?

Well, the problem is that even if you have literally thousands of
them, the nearest one will likely pass tens of thousands of kilometres
from the target.  So they need pretty good sensors, which means
significant cost and size.

Worse still, we're talking about insystem relative speeds which are
often on the order of megametres per second.  In a typical Traveller
space combat sequence, the ship gets a million kilometres away during
the combat round in which it is detected.  No mine can mount a direct
fire weapon with that range, so it has to power up some extreme
thrusters and play tag, or launch a missile which has thrusters.  More
cost and size.

At thirty gees, it can catch the ship in about two hours.  That sort
of endurance needs a damn good power source and possibly fuel, adding
yet more cost and size.

Unfortunately, it is also radiating a bucketload of power via its
thrusters, making it pretty easy to spot and subsequently shoot with
any basic point-defense the target might have.  It better have some
defensive features like armour or sandcasters, as well as a pretty
good agility.  And a good computer.  More cost and size.


By this point, you're talking about something that bears more
resemblance to an autonomous fighter than a mine.  Almost certainly
not something that you can scatter by the thousands in the hope that a
few might be able to hit something one day.

It could be done very effectively in GURPS, but I all the easy ways I
can think of use technology forbidden in the standard GURPS Traveller
universe.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 07:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 06:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] prejudice (OT)
References: <116.14e786df.2a7d2ad1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <009801c23af1$c17b2e40$0905bd50@martinjd>

> Does this damn 40 year olds?  Does this damn women?

You said you'd do it. I felt strongly enough that you shouldn't that I used
that word.

>
>  >I believe in absolute standards - good enough for the combat area is the
>  >same for everyone, and yes, more men than women are. That's reality. But
if
>  >someone is good enough and actually wants to be there, then they have
the
>  >right to be.
>
> There is no right to be in the military.

Okay. "I believe that people have the basic right to self-determination. If
the military exists and some people want to be in it, they have the right to
try to meet its absolute standards and if they do, to be accepted. IE the
right not to be debarred from service on the grounds of a generalization."

Is that better?


>
> And good heavens, I agree.  But joining the army is not the same.  The
army
> needs people it can definitely train now, that it can depend on to be able
to
> do certain things now, and that are tough enough to get it done now.  Most
> women don't meet some of those criteria, and bringing in large numbers of
> them in the hope that a few will rise to what is required is the same as
> bringing in a large number of 40 year olds in the hope that some of them
will
> rise to what is required.  Whatever the gain here and there, the effort
> overall is counter-productive.

I don't really disagree. But you said you're remove all of them and their
right to try to be what they want. I can't agree with that. I want effective
people in the military and anyone who isn't should be washed out. But I do
not belive that you can simply generalize a segment of the populace out of
the military, becuase I know that at least a proportion of them will be good
enough.

I notice that you're "done here" about the fleet thing. From where I'm
sitting, that seems to mean you've dismissed all the arguments I raised and
decided that you don't need to think about them. You still haven't
adequately explained what you mean to do about an enemy that won't give you
that pre-arranged setpiece. Or in any other "real war" situation either.

In fact, all you've actually said is "there will be a set-piece and I will
win it. All else is trivial".
Nice theory. Doesn't work, but it's nice.







From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 07:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 06:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Firearms in Vacumn
References: <20803.011715.6z8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3D4BD8C7.43D0D0AA@mindspring.com>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
>
> >>
> >> Do you still have any copies of The Model Rocketeer? Mine got lost a
> >> long time ago :-(
> >
> > I think so, I'll have a look next time I'm cleaning that part of the garage.
> > Anything in particular
> > or do you want that article on underwater launches?
> 
> Well, I'd like to have a set of the silly things, or at least a decent
> scan of them.
> 

Leonard, I don't mind scanning a few articles, but we're talking YEARS of issues(14 IIRC). I don't
have the time to scan them all, nor the inclination to give them up. I will however look for that
article.

-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 07:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 06:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"
References: <11c.14d66d9e.2a7ce27f@aol.com> <005301c23ad6$a4ab5760$1d17bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3D4BD9A0.DAF7946B@mindspring.com>

MJ Dougherty wrote:> 
> This sort of thing happens in war all the time. War is a tapestry of misery
> and suffering, most of it needless.
> 
> People demand that we go to do what must be done ( or sometimes protest
> about it and refuse to see why it must be done) then condemn the military
> when innocents get hurt.
> 
> The answer? Learn to get along and abolish conflict.
> Until then, we must accept the paradox and try to do the best we can not to
> cause needless suffering. But we will, all the same.
> That's why this world sucks.

If only it did suck. Unfortunately it blows. :( 


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 07:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 06:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonabo Class Missile Frigate
References: <c1.24afabf6.2a7d092f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4BDD16.BDE2D5BF@mindspring.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> 
>  Incidentally, it goes without saying that these things kill TL E- ships
>  quite nicely.
> 
> TL E is very vulnerable.  The meson screens and nuke dampers are weak.
> 
> I think this is a better design:
> 
> 1000 ton hull
> J4
> M6
> Armor4
> 100 ton missile bay (holds 100 salvos)
> etc
>

FWIW, in MT it states in the referees manual p74 that the ROF fro a missile bay is 2, ROF for
turrets is 1. Each launcher in a turret holds one missile(3 missiles per b/r per turret in the
battery), 100 dton bays hold 100 missiles(50 missiles per b/r), 50 dton bays hold 50 missiles(25
missiles per b/r). 

Storage of additional missiles costs 0.1 Kl@, weight goes up if you want magazines capable of
storing nuclear or antimatter missiles. It states that a 100 ton bay used as a magazine can hold
13500 missiles, but not launch them, meaning the gunners have to hump 50 missiles out of storage
after two shots of a hundred ton bay.
I also only allow them to store HE missiles in bays. 

Which is why I use dedicated magazines for any military ship that needs more than one or two battery
rounds. And why the PC's in my campaign bought a 50 b/r magazine for each missile turret. Not that
they've ever fired all 50 b/r's. I think the most they ever used in one engagement is 6 b/r's.

-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 07:41:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 06:41:53 2002
Subject: [TML] damning (OT)
Message-ID: <191.ae4ea8c.2a7d3751@aol.com>

 >>  >Yeah, and I've seen human beings who were skilled and competent and
 >>  >determined and motivated and just plain better than me being kept down
 >>  >because they were born female. You can't damn half the human race on a
 >>  >generality.
 >>
 >> "Damn"?
 >
 >Condemn to medicrity, to second-class citizenship, to be denied things that
 >they want for arbitrary reasons, despite their determination, talent and
 >potential.
 >
 >What you seem to want to do is to set limits for people.

I'm not the one setting them.

The Army (and by Army I mean all the branches) generally refuses to enlist 
any 40 year old male (unless they're a chaplain or a doctor).  Are there some 
40 year old males who could do just fine in the Army?  Yes.  Does refusing 
them entry condemn them to mediocrity, to second-class citizenship?  No.  
Does it limit their potential despite their determination and talent?  Yes, 
but there are other avenues for determination and talent.  Why does the Army 
do this?  Because 40 year olds, as a whole, have sufficient problems that the 
Army knows it will lose more in attempting to incorporate them than it will 
gain.

The Army's job is not to help people gain their potential, realize all their 
talents, grant citizenship or status, or provide a career track.  It is to 
wage war.  The large numbers of women who cannot measure up physically to the 
task, who become pregnant at sea and are shipped home leaving others to do 
their work, who load up the ranks as single mothers who are undeployable, 
outweigh the contributions of those women who perform as needed.  The only 
reason this has gone on for as long as it has is because the word has come 
down the chain:  "You will make this work.  There will be no problems."  But 
there are problems, serious problems with performance, reliability, 
deployability, and discipline, and to deny it is a disservice to the defense 
of the U.S.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 07:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 06:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] System Gen Help
Message-ID: <c9.261a11c4.2a7d38e2@aol.com>

 >> I am doing an extended system generation.  I rolled
 >> for #6 to be the max orbit.  I also rolled for 2
 >> captured planets.  One is in orbit 6.3 and the other
 >> is in 6.0
 >> 
 >> Orbit 6 and 5 are both SGG's.  4 is the mainworld and
 >> the habitable zone.
 >> 
 >> Is this legitimate?  Or do I need to move the captured
 >> planet in orbit 6.0 to somewhere else.
 >
 >I don't know of any written rule to cover this (someone speak  up
 >if they know of one)

Book six says to place captured planets where you roll them, in disregard of 
any other pre-existing system feature.  Makes sense.

If a captured planet is in a gas giant's orbit though then it should become a 
moon or impact the gas giant eventually, or perhaps eventually be thrown out 
of orbit away from or towards the star.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 07:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 06:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <26.2ba24f20.2a7d3a88@aol.com>

 >> >Has anyone noted the set up with regards to the number of starports that
 >>  >can produce starships versus those that can only builld system ships?
 And
 >>  >to make matters worse, there aren't that many high tech star ports
 around
 >>
 >> I have.  It does make a big difference, doesn't it?  "If my ships are
 cheaper
 >> I'll be able to build more of them!"  No you can't.
 >
 >
 >See above comment that HG/TCS does not adequately provide a realistic naval
 >warfare system. But it is a cool game.

How does one create a "realistic warfare system" with technology that doesn't 
actually exist?  If a given system is simply consistent and workable then 
that should provide many opportunities.  Yes, it is a cool game.  Now if I 
could just get someone to play ....

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] damning (OT)
References: <191.ae4ea8c.2a7d3751@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001001c23af8$d8a53000$bf10bd50@martinjd>

>  >
>  >What you seem to want to do is to set limits for people.
>
> I'm not the one setting them.

You said you'd remove all females from the services. How's that different
from setting a limit?

> The Army's job is not to help people gain their potential, realize all
their
> talents, grant citizenship or status, or provide a career track.

Never said it was.

>It is to
> wage war.

Yes.

>The large numbers of women who cannot measure up physically to the
> task, who become pregnant at sea and are shipped home leaving others to do
> their work, who load up the ranks as single mothers who are undeployable,
> outweigh the contributions of those women who perform as needed.

Perhaps. So we need a better system, better screening. We also need to get
rid of the men who join up and then smuggle drugs across the Canadian border
in their trucks, and all the others who don't come up to scratch. But once
you start dismissing whole segements of the population on arbitary
distinctions then you deny people the opportunity to be the best. Heck, the
potential savior of our nation (s) could be even now be being turned away at
a recruiting station because she's a girl.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"
References: <11c.14d66d9e.2a7ce27f@aol.com> <005301c23ad6$a4ab5760$1d17bd50@martinjd> <3D4BD9A0.DAF7946B@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c23af9$02c7a020$bf10bd50@martinjd>

> >
> > The answer? Learn to get along and abolish conflict.
> > Until then, we must accept the paradox and try to do the best we can not
to
> > cause needless suffering. But we will, all the same.
> > That's why this world sucks.
>
> If only it did suck. Unfortunately it blows.


And sometimes makes strange inexplicable grinding sounds like a damaged
washing machine. But it's the one we got...



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <26.2ba24f20.2a7d3a88@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002e01c23afa$280d7200$bf10bd50@martinjd>

>  >
>  >See above comment that HG/TCS does not adequately provide a realistic
naval
>  >warfare system. But it is a cool game.
>
> How does one create a "realistic warfare system" with technology that
doesn't
> actually exist?  If a given system is simply consistent and workable then
> that should provide many opportunities.  Yes, it is a cool game.  Now if I
> could just get someone to play ....

Rephrasing... TCS/HG does not create an environment that I can reconcile
with a believable setting.

As a naval analyst of sorts I can look at your HG/TCS setup from the point
of view of a real war and say "that's going to come apart very quickly".
That's the thing about wargames... they're not about warfighting, they're
about winning within the constraints of the game and rules.

That's fine, but when you try to apply the conclusions from TCS/HG to the
Traveller universe, it does not create a believable setting.

To put that another way, if the Imperium simply said "we'll build a
battle-only fleet. Any conflict will be won in a decisive clash and all else
is trivial" then they'd not be there in Year 100, let alone 1100.





From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] damning (OT)
References: <191.ae4ea8c.2a7d3751@aol.com> <001001c23af8$d8a53000$bf10bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <003801c23afa$49145720$bf10bd50@martinjd>

This has gone on too long, and too far off-topic. 

I'm unilaterally dropping the discussion in the interests of bandwidth.



Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-to-the-Masses
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/





From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The IN in the OTU
Message-ID: <003901c23afa$8f883aa0$bf10bd50@martinjd>

Maybe worth mentioning at this point that all T20 products operate from the
standpoint that fighters are trivial things designed for traffic control,
screening and escort duty. Big ships fight and kill big ships, with the
occasional funky exception.



Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-to-the-Masses
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <200208031427.LZC00036@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Douglas E. Berry"
>1. Are you nuts?
 I'm not hardcore, I'm stupid.

>2. Really nuts?
 You bet!

>3. Can you lie perfectly still while an enemy soldier 
>urinates on you?

Gee, and I thought that this only happened to me!

>4. As in #4, but it is a National Guardsman during a 
>training mission.

No, it was two scouts from the 187th.

>5. Do you stand and remove your hat when you hear GnySgt 
>Carlos Hathcock mentioned?

Yes.
>6. Do you believe in your heart of hearts that there is no 
>such thing as friendly artillery?

I don't trust tac air, either.

>7. When walking in open areas, do you automatically check 
>sight lines and exfil routes?

When my daughter and I walk in the woods in a new place, I 
ask her to tell me where the natural lines of drift are - 
then we don't walk there.

>8. Do you refer to your wife as your spotter?
No, that's my daughter.

>9. Do you/Did you make every target at 300 meters but miss 
>the 50 meter ones?

Yes..  and there's an odd area for me at 700 to 800 meters 
where I get iffy - then I'm OK out to 1200.

>10. We mean it, are you *really* nuts?
You should ask the people I served with.

________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:29:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:29:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re: max hull size
Message-ID: <200208031428.LZC00116@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Matthew Bond says
>Briefly?
>
>When did MT come out? '86 wasn't it? Thats 6 years. HG1 was 
>only out for a year or so. HG1 was published in '79 and HG2 
>in '80.

I'm sorry - I meant HG1 was out briefly.  I think it may have 
been as short as six months.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Fighter Jockettes
Message-ID: <8b.1bef55bd.2a7d449c@aol.com>

>More than a theory actually.  The number of women being trained 
>as fighter pilots continues to climb, and there are many predictions 
>that the number of female fighter pilots will surpass the number of 
>male fighter pilots in not all that many years.  Women in general 
>are shorter, lighter, and have better resistance to g forces (ie they 
>don't black out as quickly) all of which are very useful qualities in 
>modern fighter aircraft. 


The Soviets used women as fighter pilots (and tank crew, and snipers, and 
other things) during WWII and had no complaints. 

One of my favorite anecdotes is the German pilot who was shot down after a 
long "knights of the air"-style duel near an airfield in late 42 or early 43. 
He parachuted safely ot the ground, was rounded up by security, and demanded 
to meet the pilot who had shot him down so he could shake "his" hand. 
According to witnesses he did not believe it when introduced to her, and only 
after she described the fight to him in detail ("You did X, so then I 
side-slipped right and did Y") did he come to attention and salute. Frank 
Chadwick told me he once saw a painting of the scene showing a 
crestfallen-looking German staring at the beaming Soviet woman using her 
hands to re-create the fight, in the style of pilots everywhere and 
every-time.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <200208031448.LZD00692@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Flykiller says
>if paratroopers land nearby then I think it becomes clear 
>that what your MOS is and what your actual job is are two 
>different things.  

This occurs far less often than you think -- and when it 
does, the strategic effects are far smaller and last far 
shorter than is commonly believed.  Combat elements that land 
in the enemy's rear will make mincemeat of non-combat units 
even if the defenders are men.  And the defender's combat 
units will be attracted to the incursion rather quickly.

If one side has a tech level advantage, and numeric 
superiority, I think that it will not happen to the superior 
side at all.

________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <200208031451.LZD00838@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

MJ Dougherty says
>Hey, everyone, he invoked Clif!
>
>Clif has been Invoked!

Hey!  Don't do that!  That's a second invocation!  You know 
what happens if you do it three times!
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
Message-ID: <200208031455.LZD00963@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

john.groth says
>Passive sensors IRL would have ranges in space significanly 
>better than those of active sensors such as radar.
>

I would point out, however, that all such reliance on 
technology may be subject to local conditions.  I managed to 
approach within 50 meters of consultants using their thermal 
pointer (something that detects people moving within 500 
meters of an armored vehicle - I think it's installed on the 
Challenger tank).

Mind you, I was using an umbrella to crawl behind.  They 
couldn't spot me visually, either.  I took a page from German 
tactics in camouflage.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 09:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 08:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <19b.65b1e1c.2a7d49d4@aol.com>

 >Okay. The Zhos have thrown large numbers of light cruisers and "merchant
 >raiders" (armed merchant ships posing as legitimate traffic) across the
 >border and are raiding lightly defended ports, shooting up your logistics
 >train and the Sector Duke is yelling at you that dozens of world governments
 >are yelling at HIM for protection. Many of these raids are by ships in the
 >light or even heavy cruiser class. Some sightings mention capital ships and
 >small task groups. They've probably got support ships out there somewhere
 >too.

Ah, a general overall fleet attack.  You describe a situation some weeks 
after it has begun.  I think my scouts would give me a more accurate picture, 
and sooner.  I will send a message to Deneb to send a fleet.

What is the status of his fleet at Cipango and Cronor?  If he has that much 
out in my areas, then his central fleet is weakened.  If I can put two task 
forces each on Cipango and maybe Ninjar then _his_ logistics train will be 
cut entirely, and they'll provide a welcoming committee to any Zhodie ships 
that straggle back home looking for support.  Further I'll send the fleet 
raider task force to shoot up whatever they can in other worlds in that area. 
 Two can play this game, only I'll do it with concentrated task forces.  Let 
the consule at Cronor yell at _his_ commander:  "There are a thousand 
frigates at Querion!  Do something!"

I'll leave Jewell exposed and do that.  Then I'll send out some of my task 
forces individually to locate and mop up these isolated forces, using an 
extensive scout network to relay information on their activities and ship 
counts.  I'll plot their courses and attempt to determine where they want to 
go.  Not that this would be hard to guess anyway -- I'm sure the Zhodies will 
bypass Pscias and go for Rethe if they can.

 >Zho fleet elements have struck at weak targets on the border, but you don't
 >know it they retired afterward or are advancing.

Assume they're advancing.

 >Your intelligence is a mess of vessel reports,

This can be sorted out.  It may take a few hours, but I'm sure my staff is 
efficient.

 >and while the attacks on
 >minor worlds are trivial from a military standpoint, those are imperial
 >citizens being shot up.

Yes.  They will have to wait.  Soon it will be the Zhodies turn to be shot up.

 >Some border  worlds (again, soft targets) have been
 >assaulted by ground forces and may now be under occupation. The sector duke
 >wants those worlds retaken. He wants the raids stopped.

Everything in due time.  The Duke will have to be a big boy.  And likely he 
is.  When the Zhodie fleet has been rolled back, I'll send in the troop 
transports.  Not until then.

You're trying to make me panic.  I won't.  If the Zhodies have scattered a 
lot of their fleet through my sector then I'll roll them up one at a time 
with my task forces at no risk to myself.  It'll take a while, but it will be 
done.  Zhodane is mostly at tech 14, and tech 14 wallows in the mud against 
tech 15.  I've tried every possible Zhodie fleet combination against the 
Spinward Marches fleet that I can think of, pitting 7 AE worlds against what 
Mora and Trin can build, and his only chance is to stick together.

Instead, I will make the Zhodies panic.  In 500 years the Imperium has never 
taken offensive action against the Zhodane.  The Imperium has always reacted, 
defended, retreated, lost worlds.  I'll make the Zhodies defend and react to 
me.  I will cut their lines, sit astride their repair facilities, and put 
capital ships where they have not been for 500 years, forcing the Zhodies to 
come to me.  Riverland and Cronor used to be Imperial.  I will have them 
back.  When the Imperial Fleet reinforcements arrive, I just might get them.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 09:07:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 08:07:04 2002
Subject: [TML] 40-year olds
Message-ID: <200208031505.LZD01427@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Flykiller says
>Why does the Army do this?  Because 40 year olds, as a 
>whole, have sufficient problems that the Army knows it will 
>lose more in attempting to incorporate them than it will 
>gain.

No, no, no.  The reason the Army won't enlist you is because 
the "useful lifetime" of the older soldier is shorter.  Not 
because you can't pass the PT test.  Training is an expense - 
and once they spend the money, they expect a useful time 
period after that, including reserve time.

Most Delta Force soldiers are between the ages of 35 and 40.  
The Army does not have a problem with age as it pertains to 
performance.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 09:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 08:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <63.f7e6699.2a7d4cf9@aol.com>

 >Modern war - 4th generation war - is fought in the living rooms of the
 >populace. Manipulating them is one of the keys to victory. Give them enough
 >uncountered threats, enough needless deaths, and they'll be demanding peace.

And that will work in my favor, as much of the Spinward Population lives in 
the highly protected worlds of Trin, Mora, Glisten, Rhylanor, and Palique, 
and the main fleet is very close by to Rethe, Louzy, Lunion, Jewell, and 
Vilis.  That's almost half of the Spinward Marches on those planets alone.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 09:16:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sat Aug  3 08:16:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Lawyers (was: re:  sword vs shotgun)
In-Reply-To: <20020803025421.23615.36452.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020803025421.23615.36452.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <dosnku0ivbte9spq255ucevkii8dj0vp8s@4ax.com>

On Fri, 02 Aug 2002 19:54:21 -0700, "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
wrote:

>"Glenn M. Goffin" says
>>I have on many occasions in my career as a lawyer

>Often, I have marvelled at how some of the more intelligent 
>people I have met (successful intelligent people, that is) 
>have a carefully selected lawyer and a carefully selected 
>accountant.

>Most Traveller parties need a full time lawyer - but how many 
>have you seen with one? 

How many lawyers can practice on every planet the party will find itself on
- and how many parties would be able to afford a lawyer that could?

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 09:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 08:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lawyers (was: re:  sword vs shotgun)
Message-ID: <200208031521.LZD02133@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Jeff Zeitlin says
>How many lawyers can practice on every planet the party will 
>find itself on - and how many parties would be able to 
>afford a lawyer that could?
>

It's the end of the shift, and the prisoners shuffle up the 
tunnel, returning to the elevator that brought them down to 
the working face eighteen hours ago.

Near the end of the column of hapless men, John says, "Oh, 
Jeff?  Remind me again about how you didn't think that we 
could afford a lawyer to handle that mercenary contract?"

A guard shouts, "Quiet in the ranks!"
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 09:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 08:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <98.29de0498.2a7d4f0e@aol.com>

 >You're thniking of everything in terms of a mapboard and counters. I'm
 >discussing warfare.

I'm thinking in terms of what the actually constructed vessels will do 
according to the rules, yes.  You are thinking in terms of imagining what you 
think various effects will be.  I'll take the hardware -- such as it is -- 
and I'll have the last word.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 09:23:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 08:23:55 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <19b.65b1e1c.2a7d49d4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <005601c23b03$2b455560$bf10bd50@martinjd>

>
> Ah, a general overall fleet attack.  You describe a situation some weeks
> after it has begun.  I think my scouts would give me a more accurate
picture,
> and sooner.  I will send a message to Deneb to send a fleet.

No, just raiders and "crumbling". No major fleet movements just yet. Though
attempts have been made to look like the fleet is advancing....

>
> What is the status of his fleet at Cipango and Cronor?

Still there.

>If he has that much
> out in my areas, then his central fleet is weakened.  If I can put two
task
> forces each on Cipango and maybe Ninjar then _his_ logistics train will be
> cut entirely, and they'll provide a welcoming committee to any Zhodie
ships
> that straggle back home looking for support.

He's got cruiers and light commerce raiders in your space for the most part.
No fleet. Now his fleet can mass against your cutoff task forces, and smash
them with local superiority.

F>urther I'll send the fleet
> raider task force to shoot up whatever they can in other worlds in that
area.
>  Two can play this game, only I'll do it with concentrated task forces.
Let
> the consule at Cronor yell at _his_ commander:  "There are a thousand
> frigates at Querion!  Do something!"

You have a fleet raider task force? I thought you just had battleships. And
of course he can commit his fleet (held back after the initial deception
raid) against your raiders, or the cutoff squadrons. No fear of not being
able to find them, since they're concentrated and hitting predicatble
targets.

>
> I'll leave Jewell exposed and do that.  Then I'll send out some of my task
> forces individually to locate and mop up these isolated forces, using an
> extensive scout network to relay information on their activities and ship
> counts.

Yopu'll disperse your fleet to chase moving ghosts. Yes please.

>I'll plot their courses and attempt to determine where they want to
> go.  Not that this would be hard to guess anyway -- I'm sure the Zhodies
will
> bypass Pscias and go for Rethe if they can.

Part of the trick in commerce raiding is to move semi-randomly.

>
>  >Zho fleet elements have struck at weak targets on the border, but you
don't
>  >know it they retired afterward or are advancing.
>
> Assume they're advancing.

Excellent.

>
>  >Your intelligence is a mess of vessel reports,
>
> This can be sorted out.  It may take a few hours, but I'm sure my staff is
> efficient.

No, I mean that there are similar vessels all over the place, dissimilar
ones too, your mass of scouts is losing ships and your intelligence is, as I
said, a mess. So is theirs, of course, but the point is that you don't know
where their fleet is.

>
>  >and while the attacks on
>  >minor worlds are trivial from a military standpoint, those are imperial
>  >citizens being shot up.
>
> Yes.  They will have to wait.  Soon it will be the Zhodies turn to be shot
up.

You'll ignore the nobles and the people shouting for something to be done?
Well, you can try. But what military has not been constrained by poitcal
pressure from within?
>
>  >Some border  worlds (again, soft targets) have been
>  >assaulted by ground forces and may now be under occupation. The sector
duke
>  >wants those worlds retaken. He wants the raids stopped.
>
> Everything in due time.  The Duke will have to be a big boy. And likely he
> is.  When the Zhodie fleet has been rolled back, I'll send in the troop
> transports.  Not until then.

I think thus pretty much shows me what I wanted to know. You're considering
the military dimension only here.

>
> You're trying to make me panic.  I won't.  If the Zhodies have scattered a
> lot of their fleet through my sector

No, they've sent their raider forces plus some old battleships trying to
look like a major force. Their fleet never actually advcanced, just raided
and fell back. It's rearmed and heading for your task forces I mentioned
above.

>then I'll roll them up one at a time
> with my task forces at no risk to myself.

See above. You'll chase them about with superior forces, weakening your main
fleet. You'll catch and kill some of them, but where's their main fleet?

>It'll take a while, but it will be
> done.  Zhodane is mostly at tech 14, and tech 14 wallows in the mud
against
> tech 15.  I've tried every possible Zhodie fleet combination against the
> Spinward Marches fleet that I can think of, pitting 7 AE worlds against
what
> Mora and Trin can build, and his only chance is to stick together.
>
> Instead, I will make the Zhodies panic.  In 500 years the Imperium has
never
> taken offensive action against the Zhodane.  The Imperium has always
reacted,
> defended, retreated, lost worlds.  I'll make the Zhodies defend and react
to
> me.  I will cut their lines, sit astride their repair facilities, and put
> capital ships where they have not been for 500 years, forcing the Zhodies
to
> come to me.  Riverland and Cronor used to be Imperial.  I will have them
> back.  When the Imperial Fleet reinforcements arrive, I just might get
them.

You'll plunge into their space and attack? That's the thing that'll get you
the decisive action you wanted. Of course, their fleet was concentrated
after the initial raids, because I knew you wanted a decisive action and
this was the best way to get it. So now you're at the end of your supply
line, fighting his fleet *and* his local forces, with political problems and
logistics raiding in your rear.

Actually, I'd probably do the same. Point is, it's not a great position to
be in, though it does get you the initiative.

My point, though, is that you have a wargamer's contempt for political
issues and "intangible compplicaitons". If the sector Duke can't afford to
ignore politicval pressure, he'll lean on you, and you'll end up being
forced to do things you don't want. This is the reality of strategy - it's
only partially military.

Your model works fine in isolation, but IMO it falls down in the face of the
sort of thing that happens in real wars - friction, political necessity etc.

In other words, we're talking about two entirely different situations. I'm
discussing defending a hypothetical sector from equally hypothetical (but
real for the purposes of the exercise) interstellar fleets, and you're
playing High Guard.

I don't think we can accept one another's assumptions, so the exercise is
pointless..







From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 09:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 08:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <73.238e7d1c.2a7d54c4@aol.com>

 >The feint/outfeint is one of the risks of war. I may be willing to fight
 >your six with mine, and trust to my ships and crews to win it for me

So we're down from achieving local superiority with feints to trusting your 
ships.

 >As to a dumb enemy... fair comment. I've heard the "enemy" make a number of
 >sweeping pronounbcements of the "oh, I'd just" that make me confident that
 >once reality intruded, friction would render this enemy less capable than he
 >thinks.

Well, I'd just have to see that I have twelve ships and a nearby repair base 
to your six exposed, and I'd just have to struggle along making the best of 
it.

In truth, I don't know what you mean by "feint".  HG doesn't seem to have 
much scope for maneuver -- the fleets are just there, at long or short range. 
 If you mean by jumping out and then jumping back then I can see that, but 
does the book say whether or not you can determine jump distance and 
direction from watching the (I'm sure) considerable EM signature of the jump? 
 I know it doesn't in 2 or 5 or 6, or what navigation times are, or anything.

The fact of the matter is that if a fleet tries to be strong everywhere it 
will be weak everywhere, and the enemy will be able to concentrate and just 
roll on in.  Gathering up the scattered fleet to face this concentration 
would take months, and in the meantime the invader would wander around 
unchecked.  It seems to me that whether the defender is scattered or 
concentrated the invader has the advantage in either circumstance, and 
there's nothing to be done about except to attempt to close or to invade 
_him_.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes
In-Reply-To: <4957.64.8.3.28.1028349006.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <4957.64.8.3.28.1028349006.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <m37kj7exgi.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

hal@buffnet.net writes:
> 
> In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head tax" or does it
> charge an income tax on its citizens for its Imperial Budget
> requirements?  In short, if the Imperial government taxes 10% of a
> Gross Planetary Product, then it would in essence be an income tax.
> If it charges a flat 500 CR per person on a planet, then it is a
> head tax.  Which is it?

I like a head tax, but that's ;ause I like em in real life as well.  

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Modern art is what happens when painters stop looking at girls and
persuade themselves that they have a better idea.    --John Ciardi

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOELACEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOELACEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <m33ctvexcp.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net> writes:
> 
> > But I'm certainly no expert on gender differences.
> 
> To paraphrase my late father, no man is.

Or can reasonably hope to be...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Every man, woman, and responsible child has a natural, fundamental,
and inalienable human, individual, civil, and Constitutional right
(within the limits of the Non-Aggression Principle) to obtain, own,
and carry, openly or concealed, any weapon--handgun, shotgun, rifle,
machinegun, anything--any time, anywhere, without asking anyone's
permission.                                       --L. Neil Smith

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
Message-ID: <F4088vi4IdT87AtHRip00025342@hotmail.com>

From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>

    "Just a reminder that there's stuff on the Citizens website."


Sir,

     Okay, I'll bite, you pseudo-spammed [  8^)  ] us with three messages 
about the CotI website so it must be important...
     What's the big announcement/product release/article/whatever that's 
been posted over there?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in traveller)
In-Reply-To: <199.acd8aa3.2a7cea81@aol.com>
References: <199.acd8aa3.2a7cea81@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3y9bndi8f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
>
> > That kind of setup might be cheap when it came to starship life
> > support costs, but I imagine the impact on the soldiers' psyches
> > would be extreme.
> 
> Not if they were only asleep during jumps.  "Good morning, we're
> passing through Regina and the captain decided you should all spend
> some money there for a few days."  And soldiers won't be spending
> years on ships anyway--they'll only be there when in transport.
> Kind of hard to practice armored maneuvers on the mess deck.

No, 'cause they'd still not get the full rest needed.  My
greatgrandfather and grandfather took well over a month to return to
the US after WWI & WWII; my father was back in college in 48 or so
hours after his time in Vietnam.  Granted, that's _some_ rest time,
but it's not nearly enough.  You don't find as much PTSD in fellows
who got to slowly make their way back home, adjust to the new reality
&c.; you find quite a lot in guys who are plucked up from one
situation and dropped in another.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Virtues foster one another; so too, vices.  Bad English kills trees,
consumes energy, and befouls the Earth.  Good English renews it.
                                  --The Underground Grammarian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <200208031455.LZD00963@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208031455.LZD00963@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <m3u1mbdi0l.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:
> 
> Mind you, I was using an umbrella to crawl behind.  They couldn't
> spot me visually, either.  I took a page from German tactics in
> camouflage.

Oh, so you _weren't_ wearing a bright blue coat and bright red pants?
However did you retain your lan?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Gun control: the theory that a woman found raped and strangled in an
alley is morally superior to a woman explaining why her attacker got a
fatal bullet wound.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <3D4C0537.C9A63C5E@ameritech.net>

> From: Flykiller@aol.com
> Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 03:57:07 EDT
>
> I'm afraid we've been talking two different systems.  I've been 
> talking CT HG1, but everyone seems to be talking about something 
> else.  CT HG1 only distinguishes between hull sizes on to-hit 
> adjustments, not hull types. 

The hull type is a roll to penetrate defence. It's not a to hit 
modifier.

> I'm afraid I don't know HG2, or for that matter any of the others, 
> and it seems HG1 has been deprecated.

HG2 is also for CT. It replaced HG1 in 1980 (one year after the 
introduction of HG1) and is considered the definitive version.

Hey list mom is this in the faq?

> Yeah, see in HG1 a factor 9 meson cannot penetrate any meson
> screen of 3 or higher, and any capital ship is going to have 
> meson screen 9.

It's the same in HG2.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
In-Reply-To: <sd495bcc.012@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
References: <sd495bcc.012@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
Message-ID: <02080118161500.01437@linux>

On Thursday 01 August 2002 04:03 pm, you wrote:
> Would a world that has 80% of its surface covered by water, a dense
> nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, and one moon that is large enough to exert a
> tidal effect tend to be more or less climatically active? Assume
> moderate (terran-normal) vulcanism and a fairly non-polluting early TL
> aqua/agricultural society. Also assume standard polar ice caps and
> rotation around 20 deg. off the plane of the ecliptic. I'll welcome any
> and all comments...

	It seems to me that axial tilt would be of greatest concern or possibly land 
distributions and the resulting distribution of albedoes not to mention 
affecting wind/ocean currents.
	Aren't there reasonable tools on the net for running a simulation of this?
Can the old program Simearth be used to test world setups? If not then maybe 
someone could be kind enough to fill this gap in ref tools ala starform. And 
could that someone make it compile/run under linux please?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:34:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:34:05 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <d7.1b1aa813.2a792099@aol.com>
References: <d7.1b1aa813.2a792099@aol.com>
Message-ID: <02080119251701.01437@linux>

>
> I have to say I'm in favor of the "simple kludge".  this is, after all, a
> fantasy role-playing game.  most of the technology being discussed doesn't
> exist and isn't even on the horizon.  I don't think "realism" carries much
> weight in such an environment.  you're supposed to adventure, not engineer.

	I agree with you that this is a RPG and realism doesn't carry much weight 
really...so why not play dnd instead?
	To be honest, I really don't 'play' the game but I like to tinker with it as 
a simulation and thus I like to try to make it more accurate. That is how I 
enjoy Traveller. I know that many aspects of it have no analog in the real 
world, but the aspects that do match, should match the RW as close as is 
possible if it can be done without sacrificng playability.
	To do otherwise would to make   many threads on the TML as a pile of 
steaming jgdkkf . To me, this is no different than arguing about guass gun 
muzzle velocities or the best way of disposing of bodies.
	Sorry...this is how I am.

btw.......Imperial nobles IMHO can be modelled after the Catholic Church of 
the middle ages. 
	Pope=Emperor
	Bishops, Arch-Bishops, Cardinals...etc= Various high nobles
	fathers,priests ...etc= lower nobles
The held massive amounts of power without holding the reigns of any single 
country. Yet no king would dare go against the Pope in those days.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:34:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:34:55 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <001601c238a9$261f2900$7919bd50@martinjd>
References: <200207311448.LTP02792@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <001601c238a9$261f2900$7919bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <02080120122002.01437@linux>

> If you're scrambling to put together some kind of resistance to an attack,
> then immense-risk-of-death is acceptable to patriotic volunteers because
> they see it as the only way to win. If you're building a fleet in case you
> have to fight, then survivability is a requisite.
>
	Why not just determine if youd get volunteers using morale rules from 
striker or mt ref's companion (same  as each other really)?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
In-Reply-To: <F4088vi4IdT87AtHRip00025342@hotmail.com>
References: <F4088vi4IdT87AtHRip00025342@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <200208031245370897.51623A1B@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

>From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
>
>    "Just a reminder that there's stuff on the Citizens website."
>
>
>Sir,
>
>     Okay, I'll bite, you pseudo-spammed [  8^)  ] us with three messages 
>about the CotI website so it must be important...
>     What's the big announcement/product release/article/whatever that's 
>been posted over there?

I think he is just trying to draw attention to the new Traveller webzine we=
 have opened, rather than anything specific. We are looking for writers and=
 of course readers! It's free, and we are paying for article submissions=
 that are accepted for publication.

BTW, if anyone is attending GenCon this year, be sure to stop by the QLI=
 booth (#841). Marc will be there as our guest and we'll have copies of T20=
 Lite fresh off the presses!

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:46:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:46:55 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <20020801182132.8dc5803e76f94f1f98d7b72b3352174c.in@keywest.kennett.net>
References: <20020801182132.8dc5803e76f94f1f98d7b72b3352174c.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <02080312521500.00601@linux>

>
> FYI, the Brewster Buffalo has such a bad reputation because of its poor
> combat performance against the Japanese.  Yet we are talking about the same
> fighter that managed to beat the Grummen Wildcat in the US Navy's
> competition for a carrier fighter just before World War 2.  If Brewster had
> not proven so inept in actually building and upgrading the fighter, then we
> would be seeing Buffalos tangling with Zeros at Midway....
>

The Finns LOVED the Buffalo. They thought it did a wonderful job against the 
enemy. Brewster just went overboard in trying to improve it by adding more 
weapons and armour than it had power to carry. Also at that time our fighter 
tactics were poor while Japan had been parctising in China since 1937
The Zero was not that great of a plane. WEak guns and no armour. Its ailerons 
locked solid at over 220 mph. Great in a turning fight but lousy in anything 
else.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] PLSS duration
Message-ID: <3816d337dc90.37dc903816d3@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Monday, July 29, 2002 11:06 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] PLSS duration

> In mail you write:
> 
> > shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
> >> 
> >> The need to defecate is likely to be the limit.  Short of nanotech,
> >> dealing with that in a suit is a real pain.  Stay in the suit too
> >> long and you have to deal with a *nasty* case of diaper rash.
> >
> > Well, you could have a water-spray which cleans one--the water runs
> > down the legs and is vented from the feet.  Spray enough and 
> you'd be
> > clean.  I'll grant it'd take some getting used to, but if the
> > alternative is being toasted, I think most will take it.
> 
> "enough" is apt to be a lot more water than you can afford to 
> vent. And
> trust me, you *will* have stuff left behind on the way down. 
> 
> And you are assuming gravity, as well.

I wonder if a sort of mini-airlock could be devised to deal with the 
issue.  Although sitting in regular chairs might be a problem.... ;-)




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Junk in space
Message-ID: <3865583847de.3847de386558@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
Date: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 3:49 am
Subject: Re: [TML] Junk in space

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
> > On the other hand, a 2 cm chunk of something is going to do more
> > than leave a dent.
> 
> Such a chunk probably has a kinetic energy of about 1 MJ at best, and
> very likely is travelling at substantially less than the speed of
> sound in starship hull material.
> 
> I think "make a dent" would be about right.  If one ever hit, 
> which it
> wouldn't unless the sensors were crippled.

Why am I reminded of the "ravioli railgun" post of several years ago?  
(I'd repost it again, except that it's on one of my computers back 
Stateside....)

IIRC, one of our Scandinavian list members also has it archived.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Check Your Landgrabs!
Message-ID: <3D4C1132.3C2572D6@mail.cswnet.com>

Just floated over to the CotI site and looked up
their version of the Spinward Marches. Arba's
population has gone from 550 to 100.

Everything else seems to be the same.

Those with landgrabs may want to check and see if 
there are any significant changes. I'd be interested
to know if anyone else's landgrab systems got altered
significantly.

Anyone now what T20's historical time frame is, if
it has one?

Now I'm thinking. Moving Nimmi Shis away from the
starport turns out to have been good planing. We
can waste the town, leave downport intact, and
have enough population left to cover the new
population figure. Quite a few BM's will bite the
dust, but the Taylors and the Tacans will still
be around. If the history works out right, we
can blame it all on the Sword Worlders.

Course, that supposes that I would want to have it
that way. Since I live in CT land, I just may decide
to ignore this little bit.

CT Arba pop 600
BTC Arba pop 550
T20 Arba pop 100

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <20020803173031.AB7754508@mo130uhou.palm.net>

john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:
[snip]
>This and many more fine quotes may be found on Mark Urbin's Web site: 
>http://www.urbin.net/EWW/sigs/rpg-sigs.html

 Thanks for the plug!
When that page gets big enough to split up, Penguin Boy gets his own wing...
----------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:33:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:33:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Check Your Landgrabs!
In-Reply-To: <3D4C1132.3C2572D6@mail.cswnet.com>
References: <3D4C1132.3C2572D6@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <200208031332570059.518D8C96@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 8/3/2002 at 12:21 PM Roseberry wrote:

>Just floated over to the CotI site and looked up
>their version of the Spinward Marches. Arba's
>population has gone from 550 to 100.
>
>Everything else seems to be the same.
>
>Those with landgrabs may want to check and see if 
>there are any significant changes. I'd be interested
>to know if anyone else's landgrab systems got altered
>significantly.
>
>Anyone now what T20's historical time frame is, if
>it has one?

The data other than for Ley Sector may be off. I am still looking for a=
 good set of definative SEC files for that section of the website. If=
 anyone can point to me to some or has good copies based on the AotI data,=
 I would appreciate it!

The Ley Sector data is based on our upcoming material and is set around=
 year 1000.

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"
In-Reply-To: <005301c23ad6$a4ab5760$1d17bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <B971637A.67A12%listmom@travellercentral.com>

Please relate this to Traveller

Listmom


on 8/3/02 3:14 AM, MJ Dougherty at martinjd@globalnet.co.uk wrote:

>> 
>> I rest my case.
>> 
>> "It's Milosivic's fault we bombed a convoy of farmers!"
>> "It's Arafat's fault we bombed that apartment building!"
>> "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a convoy of inauguration representatives
> on
>> the open road!"
>> 
>> If I were to act with this level of disregard even in defense of my own
>> children, I'd be in jail.  McVeigh was right -- "collateral damage" covers
> a
>> multitude of sins.
> 
> This sort of thing happens in war all the time. War is a tapestry of misery
> and suffering, most of it needless.
> 
> People demand that we go to do what must be done ( or sometimes protest
> about it and refuse to see why it must be done) then condemn the military
> when innocents get hurt.
> 
> The answer? Learn to get along and abolish conflict.
> Until then, we must accept the paradox and try to do the best we can not to
> cause needless suffering. But we will, all the same.
> That's why this world sucks.

-- 
listmom@travellercentral.com
for list information see
http://lists.travellercentral.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:42:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:42:06 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <fc.1bc430d6.2a7d06b7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B97163D2.67A14%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/3/02 3:13 AM, Flykiller@aol.com at Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>> Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
>> big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.
> 
> What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other sensor systems
> you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?


Nothing says that mines need to be static, waiting for something to hit
them.  A mine could be nothing more than a large missile with high
acceleration and short range waiting for some ship to come into range.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <001401c23ae8$dcdeae40$0905bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <B97164B2.67A15%listmom@travellercentral.com>

Please relate this to Traveller or move it to TML-Chat


on 8/3/02 5:25 AM, MJ Dougherty at martinjd@globalnet.co.uk wrote:

>> circles around the vast majority of the females I've seen, no
> exaggeration.
> 
> On the flip side, two of my friends (female friends) are more determined and
> in absolute terms more capable than half the men in our martial arts class.
> They're better than many who hold higher grades. They'd be barred under your
> rules.
> 
>> that's not damning women, and that's not prejudice.
> 
> Deciding the fate of half the human race - pre-judging their capabilities -
> becuase of gender. Nah, that's notuing like prejudice.
> 
> Of course, the poor dears can't be expected to understand politics, manage
> an estate or run a business either. Any you know? they couldn't do it. Not
> until someone let them try.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

-- 
listmom@travellercentral.com
for list information see
http://lists.travellercentral.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Con Jose the World SF Con any Travellers going?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020801092023.45176588@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <200208010315.g713FgD09733@sun.ebtech.net>
Message-ID: <200208031757.g73Hv6x10235@sun.ebtech.net>

Actually Anne Murphy in publications is a friend of mine.
I'll be staying in the party hotel and working in the Hilton.

Let's try and do something.


> At 11:12 PM 7/31/2002 -500, you wrote:
> >Hi I'll be at Con Jose working the Coffeeklatches
> >
> >Anyone else planning on attending?
> 
> I'll be there, working publications.
> 
> >Maybe we could get together over a meal to talk Traveller.
> 
> It would be fun.  May I suggest that anyone attending ConJose subscribe to
> Travller in SF.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TravellerinSF/
> 
> So we can coordinate a meeting time and place.  If we want to do an actual
> dinner, I need to know how many people are coming. -- 
> 
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
> 
> "Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
> - Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] damning (OT) PLEASE STOP
In-Reply-To: <191.ae4ea8c.2a7d3751@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B971661B.67A21%listmom@travellercentral.com>

This whole discussion is both unrelated to Traveller and inflammatory.  If
you wish to continue it, please take it off the TML.  Move it to TML-chat,
whatever.  

Thank You,

Listmom



on 8/3/02 6:40 AM, Flykiller@aol.com at Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> I'm not the one setting them.
> 
> The Army (and by Army I mean all the branches) generally refuses to enlist
> any 40 year old male (unless they're a chaplain or a doctor).  Are there some

[snip]

> there are problems, serious problems with performance, reliability,
> deployability, and discipline, and to deny it is a disservice to the defense
> of the U.S.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

-- 
listmom@travellercentral.com
for list information see
http://lists.travellercentral.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Check Your Landgrabs!
Message-ID: <3D4C1760.CA00C331@mail.cswnet.com>

Hunter Gordon writes:
>The data other than for Ley Sector may be off. I am still looking for >a good set of definative SEC files for that section of the website. >If anyone can point to me to some or has good copies based on the >AotI data, I would appreciate it!

>The Ley Sector data is based on our upcoming material and is set >around year 1000.

Well shoot, if its gonna by year 1000 than I don't have to do anything.
Cool. Just a bunch of prospectors and LSP hangers on.
The LSP starport eventually deteriates to type E, then a new one 
gets built elsewhere by independant colonists around 1083-1084.
Yeah, I can go with that. Mahvelous!

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
 traveller)
In-Reply-To: <m3y9bndi8f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <B97167AA.67A22%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/3/02 9:23 AM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> 
> No, 'cause they'd still not get the full rest needed.  My
> greatgrandfather and grandfather took well over a month to return to
> the US after WWI & WWII; my father was back in college in 48 or so
> hours after his time in Vietnam.  Granted, that's _some_ rest time,
> but it's not nearly enough.  You don't find as much PTSD in fellows
> who got to slowly make their way back home, adjust to the new reality
> &c.; you find quite a lot in guys who are plucked up from one
> situation and dropped in another.

While there is likely a connection between PTSD and rapid reintegration back
into 'normal' life, experts have also linked PSTD to the extensive use of
operant conditioning of soldiers that occurred after WWII.

What provisions does the Imperium make for combat veterans returning to
civilian life?  Are long voyages home sufficient?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: a believable starfaring navy?
Message-ID: <200208031922.g73JMGw03053@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
...
>> >cruiser before it closed and killed the carrier. Or....
>>
>>   Sadly, HG2 doesn't allow those sorts of complications, but
>> any of the hex-based Trav games make riders/carriers _much_
>> less attractive for precisely that reason.
>
>Agreed. This is why I believe that HG/TCS alone do not present a framework
>for creating a believable starfaring navy.

  You can abstract that - there was a thread on SCTA (a HG2 / 
TCS List:  ct-starships@yahoogroups.com ) about that this spring.

  Most carrier/rider solutions also entail reduced Jump efficiency 
due to refuelling, which TCS & 5FW only partly address.

  IIRC, Mr. Smith has a draft for in-system operational actions
up on the net (URL?), which should highlight the downsides of
low-G rider tenders (etc).

  Perhaps BL/BR can be mined for ideas on more purely tactical
limitations of tender dependent forces, such as the pure
excitement of cutting an entry too closely to an enemy force?

The rest of the rider debate is too well attested to merit re-flogging :>

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:28:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:28:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <200208031927.g73JRUw03653@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: sneadj@mindspring.com
>Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 22:16:45 -0700
>Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
...  
>However, Dresden is an amazingly clear cut case.  It was an act of 
>terror and vengeance easily as bad as anything the other side did 
>in it's bombing of civilian targets.

  Arguably it was also a strong message to Uncle Joe, although
I'm far from clear as to why we'd want to say "we're worse than
you" to _that_ regime.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lawyers
In-Reply-To: <20020803114546.E36724505@mo130uhou.palm.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803111851.4727ae50@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:45 AM 8/3/2002 +0000, you wrote:

>"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:
>[snip]
>>Most Traveller parties need a full time lawyer - but how many  
>>have you seen with one?  
>
>Even Doc Savage kept a lawyer in his group. :-)
>Useful for the high Admin skills too...

I played a lawyer in a Repo game.  Eneri Bitterman, Attorney-at-Large.  I
had poor combat skills, but excellent research and people skills.  When
we'd take a ship, I'd present the legal papers claiming the ship due to
loan default.

We had a blast.


Best line: "Hey!  This was a new suit!  Add it to our expenses!"
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:38:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:38:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
 traveller)
In-Reply-To: <m3y9bndi8f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <199.acd8aa3.2a7cea81@aol.com>
 <199.acd8aa3.2a7cea81@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803112050.478f7fe2@pop.mindspring.com>

At 10:23 AM 8/3/2002 -0600, you wrote:

>No, 'cause they'd still not get the full rest needed.  My
>greatgrandfather and grandfather took well over a month to return to
>the US after WWI & WWII; my father was back in college in 48 or so
>hours after his time in Vietnam.  Granted, that's _some_ rest time,
>but it's not nearly enough.  You don't find as much PTSD in fellows
>who got to slowly make their way back home, adjust to the new reality
>&c.; you find quite a lot in guys who are plucked up from one
>situation and dropped in another.

Which we accounted for in Desert Storm.  Most combat units spent a few
weeks getting back into routine before going stateside.

Returning home as a unit helped.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:39:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:39:51 2002
Subject: [TML] prejudice (OT)
In-Reply-To: <116.14e786df.2a7d2ad1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803112905.471757e8@pop.mindspring.com>

At 08:47 AM 8/3/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>And good heavens, I agree.  But joining the army is not the same.  The army 
>needs people it can definitely train now, that it can depend on to be able
>to do certain things now, and that are tough enough to get it done now.  

When I joined the US Army, I could barely do 5 push-ups, 20 situps, and
running 2 miles was out of the question.

Thirteen weeks later, in my final PT test, I did, in 2 minutes, 58 good
push-ups, 69 sit-ups, and ran 2 miles in just under 14 minutes.  I also had
never touched a firearm, but came out an expert marksman with several
weapons.  This is why we have training.

You comparison to a forty year old, is off.  Theoretically, that forty year
old had 22 years to decide to join, he chose not to.  A blanket ban on
women removes the choice.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:40:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:40:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Superstition (and Movies)
In-Reply-To: <d.2aca729a.2a7ca6f7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803113810.4727edae@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:24 PM 8/2/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>The movie MEMPHIS BELLE (the 1990s remake, not the earlier documentary) 
>illustrates this about as accurately as Hollywood ever gets history. It's a 
>pretty good representation of the history involved, including the extreme 
>youth of the aircrew.
>
>"Danny! Jack threw my St Christopher overboard!"
>"Here, take my lucky rubber band . . . it works, honest."

When I was still driving for SuperShuttle I had the honor of carrying one
of the Tuskeegee airmen in my van.  The stories he told me...  Evidently,
one of the pilots *had* to do a barrel-roll on take-off.  He's done it
once, and gotten his first kill.  So he did it everytime.  Another pilot
touched the muzzles of all the MGs before boarding.

>Several years ago, I was toying with the notion of writing a book of war 
>movie reviews discussing the relative level of accuracy of each (although I 
>think it has already been done). GETTYSBURG is one of my faves in this 
>regard. 

Great film.  "General, I have no division..."
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <m3k7n8eh5f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <3.0.5.16.20020802200157.46a789a6@pop.mindspring.com>
 <3.0.5.16.20020802200157.46a789a6@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803114257.497f3788@pop.mindspring.com>

At 09:49 PM 8/2/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes:
>>
>> Oh, and an NCO having sex with a solider in the same chain of
>> command is a violation of the UCMJ.  They deserved to get busted.
>
>That's a nice enough theory, but if one throws a bunch of 18-20
>yr. old boys and girls together they're going to get randy.  That's
>the Way It Is, regardless of what the rules are.  At least if one
>believes the modern prattle that one's sexual drive is irresistible,
>then one cannot hold anyone to account for giving in to said drive.
>And if one _doesn't_ hold to said prattle, then there's a whole load
>of other things one must abandon.

A NCO is supposed to be in better control of him/herself.  If that NCO is
out of control, then take away the stripes.

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:42:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:42:56 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <40.21b2d6f0.2a7cfea7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803114514.4717ac00@pop.mindspring.com>

At 05:38 AM 8/3/2002 EDT, you wrote:
> >And I daresay that if we have women serving in full combat capacity
> >under the regimes of either seperate standards (i.e. where they must
> >not meet the same standards as men) or reduced standards (e.g. I
> >understand that two-man stretcher teams are now four or more), we will
> >see plenty of human beings who die miserably because their comrades
> >are not up to the task.
>
>Actually, I'll bet we won't.  The military is talking now about how much 
>future warfare will be on the level of special ops, utilizing local troops 
>and only sending in special forces to coordinate bomb strikes, like in 
>Afghanistan.
>
>Army?  What army?

And in 1960 we knew that the next war was going to be on the North German
plains and involve massive tank formations.

Vietnam?  Where's that?
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Embrace Fascism.    The uniforms look cool


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:43:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:43:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <00e801c23adc$47c368c0$1d17bd50@martinjd>
References: <20020802231503.19852.60096.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <3D4B3637.35538EB8@mailbag.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803114655.4717ae96@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:54 AM 8/3/2002 +0100, you wrote:

>You mean Clif!
>
>Hey, everyone, he invoked Clif!
>
>Clif has been Invoked!

Aieee!!! you said it three times!  At least no one has mentioned Leroy yet... 
oh, damn.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"Some days, you just can't get rid  of a bomb!"
                    -Adam West, as Batman 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:44:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:44:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <39.2b0d8fbb.2a7d17c6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803114832.4717769c@pop.mindspring.com>

At 07:25 AM 8/3/2002 EDT, you wrote:

> >I also saw many male soldiers who whined and always seemed to be on
>profile.
>
>Many?  I saw a small handful -- in boot camp.  None of them passed.  Outside 
>of that, it was just normal morale problems.  My first reserve unit was top 
>notch, the navy men complained but were reliable and tough, and my next 
>reserve unit seemed to have nothing but capable people (except for a few 
>opportunistic bureaucrats).  I can't speak to where you were, but I've been 
>to some places and seen some environments, and I can't say I've seen "many" 
>male whiners or sick-bay commandos.

Many.  It might help that I was infantry.  I saw guys who were constantly
on profile, whined about their recruiters, and started their ETS countdown
with three years left in the service.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:45:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:45:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <19b.65b1e1c.2a7d49d4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803121034.44ff804c@pop.mindspring.com>

At 10:59 AM 8/3/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>Ah, a general overall fleet attack.  You describe a situation some weeks 
>after it has begun.  I think my scouts would give me a more accurate
picture, 
>and sooner.  I will send a message to Deneb to send a fleet.

Two months to get there at Jump-6.  Assuming an entire fleet is ready to
rush to your aid, 2-3 months to get it to the front.

>What is the status of his fleet at Cipango and Cronor?  If he has that much 
>out in my areas, then his central fleet is weakened.  If I can put two task 
>forces each on Cipango and maybe Ninjar then _his_ logistics train will be 
>cut entirely, and they'll provide a welcoming committee to any Zhodie ships 
>that straggle back home looking for support.  Further I'll send the fleet 
>raider task force to shoot up whatever they can in other worlds in that
area. 

What are his war goals?  If it is disrupting the Imperial confidence in the
sector, you will not be able to justify your move politically!  Remember,
in WWII the US went on the offensive only after Midway.

> Two can play this game, only I'll do it with concentrated task forces.  Let 
>the consule at Cronor yell at _his_ commander:  "There are a thousand 
>frigates at Querion!  Do something!"

Meanwhile there are a hundred ships at Jewell, Efate, Pixie.. destroying
naval bases and advanced starports.  He has a shorter line of support than
you.  Assuming that he started the attack, he also has more stockpiled
replacements.

>I'll leave Jewell exposed and do that.  Then I'll send out some of my task 
>forces individually to locate and mop up these isolated forces, using an 
>extensive scout network to relay information on their activities and ship 
>counts.  I'll plot their courses and attempt to determine where they want to 
>go.  Not that this would be hard to guess anyway -- I'm sure the Zhodies
will 
>bypass Pscias and go for Rethe if they can.

Any information you get will be at *least* a week out of date.  More likely
several weeks old.  How do you know that while you are chasing down raiders
the real main fleet isn't descending upon Regina?

> >Zho fleet elements have struck at weak targets on the border, but you don't
> >know it they retired afterward or are advancing.
>
>Assume they're advancing.

No.  You assume they are advancing.  You won't be sure until later.. much
later.
>
> >Your intelligence is a mess of vessel reports,
>
>This can be sorted out.  It may take a few hours, but I'm sure my staff is 
>efficient.

Try days.  And there is always a piece missing.  Read up on Market Garden

> >and while the attacks on
> >minor worlds are trivial from a military standpoint, those are imperial
> >citizens being shot up.
>
>Yes.  They will have to wait.  Soon it will be the Zhodies turn to be shot
up.

A bit harsh, yes?  Your job is to defend the Imperium!

>Everything in due time.  The Duke will have to be a big boy.  And likely he 
>is.  When the Zhodie fleet has been rolled back, I'll send in the troop 
>transports.  Not until then.

Tentative.  Hit them hard with everything.  If the Zho troops are engaged
in combat, suddenly they need help.  You've given the Zho commander a new
headache.  Depending on his ground investment, he may have a few hundred
thousand troops on the ground.  

>You're trying to make me panic.  I won't.  If the Zhodies have scattered a 
>lot of their fleet through my sector then I'll roll them up one at a time 
>with my task forces at no risk to myself.  It'll take a while, but it will
be 
>done.  Zhodane is mostly at tech 14, and tech 14 wallows in the mud against 
>tech 15.  I've tried every possible Zhodie fleet combination against the 
>Spinward Marches fleet that I can think of, pitting 7 AE worlds against what 
>Mora and Trin can build, and his only chance is to stick together.

You are still wedded to the idea that the Zho *wants* a fleet engagement.
You said it yourself: that's suicide.  So he keeps skirmishing.  Letting a
massive fleet be seen in one place, which then jumps to several different
worlds.  You come in and pick off a CruRon or two, but two jumps away,
there is glowing slag where the orbital shipyards used to be.  Look up
Quantril' Raiders, or the Rangers.  A diversified force can rip a superior
force to shreds if they are careful.

Which Roman was it that got ripped to shreds in Germany?

>Instead, I will make the Zhodies panic.  In 500 years the Imperium has never 
>taken offensive action against the Zhodane.  The Imperium has always
reacted, 
>defended, retreated, lost worlds.  I'll make the Zhodies defend and react to 
>me.  I will cut their lines, sit astride their repair facilities, and put 
>capital ships where they have not been for 500 years, forcing the Zhodies to 
>come to me.  Riverland and Cronor used to be Imperial.  I will have them 
>back.  When the Imperial Fleet reinforcements arrive, I just might get them.

Cool.  And in the same time, you have the Zhos coming from everywhere (the
Consulate is much smaller, y'know) and the Zho's destroying the ares you
were supposed to be defending!  If you are lucky, you'll be killed in
battle, and won't be hung for gross incompetence.

Mission is everything.  If you have been attacked, your first duty as an
Imperial officer is to defend the state.  Taking the war to the enemy's
home is a political decision.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"Genetically" we are nearly identical to fruit flies.  On the
other hand, as a species we write better string quartets. 
				- Rich Clancey


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:46:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:46:40 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <63.f7e6699.2a7d4cf9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803123126.44ff6796@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:12 AM 8/3/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>And that will work in my favor, as much of the Spinward Population lives in 
>the highly protected worlds of Trin, Mora, Glisten, Rhylanor, and Palique, 
>and the main fleet is very close by to Rethe, Louzy, Lunion, Jewell, and 
>Vilis.  That's almost half of the Spinward Marches on those planets alone.

My Sword World allies will tie down the Lunion and Glisten fleets.  Vargr
forces will raid the Coreward ends of Regina and Aramis to draw off fleet
elements from those subsectors.  Raiders and deep penetration fleets will
be sent into Regina and Villis for commerce and raiding and hit&run attacks
against starports capable of repairing navy ships.

My main thrust will come at Louzy/Jewell and Grant/Jewell.  Cutting off the
Jewell cluster.  Louzy has no gas giant, and Grant only two, making these
systems easy to hold.

With the door barred, and my penetrators wrecking havoc, I move on the
Jewell cluster itself.  Ruby (1005), Emerald (1006), and Mongo (1204) are
the first targets. All are relatively low tech, and only Mongo has a Naval
base.  From there, I send more forces to Lysen (1307).  Lysen doesn't have
enough people or technology to put up a stiff resitience.  These moves
would be on a timed basis, with fleets moving according to schedule.

Once everyhing was secure, I'd move the bulk of my fleets to Jewell (1106)
along with the invasion force.  Jewell would be a tough nut to crack

(Divergence, I just had the most amazing case of deja-vu.  I clearly
remembered typing that exact sentiece before, on this computer.  Weird)

With you reacting to my previous moves, I have you out of position.  I can
begin the bombardment of targets on the planet with minimal interference.
I would send troops down *as quickly as is possible* because in orbit, they
are targets.  On the ground, they are an asset.  My forces at the other
worlds have couriers stationed with them; ordered to jump out *the moment*
a large Imperial force engages my force.  This will give me at least a
little warning.

Obviously, there are holes in this attack, since I just came up with it.
The biggest hole I see is a fleet coming through the Federation of Arden on
my Rimward flank.  Placing pickets at Zircon (1110), Utoland (1209), Pequan
(1210), and 871-438 (1510) would give me warning, although I am probably
short on ships at this point.  Just have to hope that the raiders and
Swordies are doing their job.

There, a clear plan with goals.  That's what the Imperial player would also
need.  There is never a time when allowing massive friendly civilian
casualties is acceptable.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:47:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:47:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <98.29de0498.2a7d4f0e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803123222.44ff714e@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:21 AM 8/3/2002 EDT, you wrote:
> >You're thniking of everything in terms of a mapboard and counters. I'm
> >discussing warfare.
>
>I'm thinking in terms of what the actually constructed vessels will do 
>according to the rules, yes.  You are thinking in terms of imagining what
you 
>think various effects will be.  I'll take the hardware -- such as it is -- 
>and I'll have the last word.

You are really setting records for honking people off here, you know that?
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:48:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:48:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Ravioli in space (was: Junk in space)
Message-ID: <F114k2H3b98KtdhQYZk00009320@hotmail.com>

From: john.groth@us.army.mil
>From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
>>Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> > On the other hand, a 2 cm chunk of something is going to do more
>> > than leave a dent.
>>
>>Such a chunk probably has a kinetic energy of about 1 MJ at best, and
>>very likely is travelling at substantially less than the speed of
>>sound in starship hull material.
>>
>>I think "make a dent" would be about right.  If one ever hit,
>>which it
>>wouldn't unless the sensors were crippled.
>
>Why am I reminded of the "ravioli railgun" post of several years ago?
>(I'd repost it again, except that it's on one of my computers back
>Stateside....)
>
>IIRC, one of our Scandinavian list members also has it archived.

<puff of smoke>Oh, I have been summoned!


<Start Repost>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 08:31:46 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: HUMOR/Physics; Under enough pressure, ravioli behaves as a gas.

This is humor only people at MIT...or on the Traveller Mailing list...can 
appreciate.  Ravioli rail guns anyone?
While humorous in primary intent, this article also contains important
information about impact effects at vars. speeds...of a can of ravioli.

- ------- Forwarded Message>>To: 0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org
>Subject: Under enough pressure, ravioli behaves as a gas.
>Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 11:43:20 -0500>From: glen mccready <glen@qnx.com>>
[snip forwards]

>>There was still one aspect of the whole concept of a ravioli-loaded
>>railgun type wepon which we, lolling about late on a weeknight, with
>>only a few neurons randomly firing, could not resolve.  Would a chunk
>>of metal (can of ravioli) impacting another, larger, rest mass
>>structure (star destroyer) produce an "explosion" effect, or simply
>>punch an appropriately shaped hole as it passed through?  Bill?>

>What am I, the neighborhood blast physicist???  Well, maybe... :-)
>
>It all depends on speed of impact versus the speed of sound in the target
>(what is called the Mach number, where Mach 1 means the speed of sound,
>Mach 2 is twice the speed of sound, etc), and the speed of the ravioli
>versus the speed of light in the target (which I'll call the Cerenkov
>number, where Cerenkov 1 is the speed of light in anything; Cerenkov 1.3
>is the speed of high-energy protons in a water-cooled reactor (that's why
>you get that nifty blue glow), and you can get up to Cerenkov 2.4 using
>diamonds and nuclear accellerators.  In the late 40's people used to talk
>about Cerenkov numbers, but they don't anymore.  Pity.).  Lastly, there's
>the ravioli velocity expressed as a fraction of the speed of light in a
>vacuum (that is, as a fraction of "c").  "C" velocities are always between
>0 and 1.
>
>At low speeds (REAL low) the ravioli will simply flow over the surface,
>yielding a space-cruiser with a distinctly Italian paint job.>
>Faster (still well below speed-of-sound in the target) the metal of the
>space-cruiser's skin will distort downward, making what we Boston drivers
>call a "small dent".
>
>Faster still, you may have a "big dent" or maybe even a "big dent with a
>hole in the middle", caused by the ravioli having enough energy to push
>the dent through, stretching and thinning the hull metal till the metal
>finally tears in the middle of the dent.
>
>Getting up past Mach 1 (say, 5000 feet/sec for steel), you start to get
>punch-a-hole-shaped-like-the-object effects, because the metal is being
>asked to move faster than the binding forces in the object can propagate
>the "HEY!  MOVE!" information.  (After all, sound is just the binding
>forces between atoms in a material moving the adjacent atoms -- and the
>speed of sound is how fast the message to "move" can propagate.)  From
>this, we see that WileE Coyote often reached far-supersonic speeds because
>he often punched silhouette-type holes in rocks, cliffs, trucks, etc.
>
>Around Mach 4 or so, another phenomenon starts -- compressive heating.
>This is where the leading edge of the ravioli actually starts being heated
>by compression (remember PV=nRT, the ideal gas law?)  Well, ravioli isn't
>a gas, but under enough pressure, ravioli behaves as a gas.  It is
>compressed at the instant of impact and gets hot -- very hot.  Likewise,
>the impact point on the hull is compressed and gets hot.  Both turn to
>gasses -- real gasses, glowing-white-hot gasses.  The gasses expand
>spherically, causing crater-like effects, including a raised rim and a
>basically parabolic shape.  In the center of the crater, some material is
>vaporized, then there's a melt zone, then a larger "bent" zone, and the
>raised rim is caused because the gas expansion bubble center point (the
>bending force) is actually *inside* the hull plate.  If the hull plate
>isn't thick enough, then the gas-expansion bubble pushes through to the
>other side, and you get a structural breach event (technically speaking,
>a "big hole") in the side of the space-cruiser.
>
>Compressive heating really hits the stride up around 20,000 feet/sec (Mach
>4 in steel, Mach 15 in air) and continues as a major factor all the way
>up to the high fractional Cerenkov speeds, where nuclear forces begin to
>take effect.
>
>Aside: the "re-entry friction heating" that spacecraft endure when the
>reenter the atmosphere is NOT friction.  It's really compressive heating
>of the air in the path.  As long as the spacecraft is faster than Mach 1,
>the air can't know to get out of the way, so it bunches up in front of
>the spacecraft.  When you squeeze any gas, it gets hot.  So, the glowing
>"reentry gas" is really just squeezed air, which heats the spacecraft heat
>shield by conduction and infrared.  The hypersonic ravioli can be expected
>to behave similarly.
>
>As we increase speed from the high Mach numbers (about 10 miles/sec) all
>the way up to about 150,000 miles/sec, not much different happens except
>that the amount of kinetic energy (which turns into compressive heat)
>increases.  This is a huge range of velocity, but it's uninteresting
>velocity.
>
>At high fractional Cerenkov speeds, the ravioli is now beginning to travel
>at relativistic velocities.  Among other things, this means that the
>ravioli is aging more slowly than usual, and the ravioli can looks
>compressed in the direction of travel.  But that's really not important
>right now.
>
>As we pass Cerenkov 1.0 in the target, we get a new phenomenon -- Cerenkov
>radiation.  This is that distinctive blue glow seen around water-cooled
>reactors.  It's just (relatively) harmless light (harmless compared to
>the other blast effects, that is).  I mention it only because it's so
>nifty...
>
>At around .9 c (Cerenkov 1.1) , the ravioli starts to perceptibly weigh
>more.  It's just a relativistic mass increase -- all the additional weight
>is actually energy, available to do compressive heating upon impact.  The
>extra weight is converted to heat energy according to the equation E=mc^2;
>it looks like compressive heating but it's not.
>
>[Here's where I'm a little hazy on the numbers; I'm at work and
>don't have time to rederive the Lorentz transformations.]
>
>At around .985 c (Cerenkov 1.2 or so), the ravioli now weighs twice what
>it used to weigh. For a one pound can, that's two pounds... or about sixty
>megatons of excess energy.  All of it turns to heat on impact.  Probably
>very little is left of the space-cruiser.
>
>At around .998 c, the impacting ravioli begins to behave less like ravioli
>and more like an extremely intense radiation beam.  Protons in the water
>of the ravioli begin to successfully penetrate the nuclei of the hull
>metal.  Thermonuclear interactions, such as hydrogen fusion, may take
>place in the tomato sauce.
>
>At around .9998 c, the ravioli radiation beam is still wimpy as far as
>nuclear accellerator energy is concerned, but because there is so much of
>it, we can expect a truly powerful blast of mixed radiation coming out of
>the impact site.  Radiation, not mechanical blast, may become the largest
>hazard to any surviving crew members.
>
>At around .9999999 c, the ravioli radiation may begin to produce
>"interesting" nuclear particles and events (heavy, short-lived particles).
>
>At around .999999999999 c, the ravioli impact site may begin to resemble
>conditions in the original "big bang"; equilibrium between matter and
>energy; free pair production; antimatter and matter coexisting in
>equilibrium with a very intense gamma-ray flux, etc.[1]
>
>Past that, who knows?  It may be possible to generate quantum black holes
>given a sufficiently high velocity can of ravioli.
>
>     --Bill
>
>[1]According to physicist W. Murray, we may also expect raining frogs,
>   plagues of locusts, cats and dogs living together, real Old Testament
>   destruction.  You get the idea...
<end repost>


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:50:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:50:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
In-Reply-To: <20020803190005.10755.54707.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17b4qf-0002Ab-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
 
> While there is likely a connection between PTSD and rapid
> reintegration back into 'normal' life, experts have also linked PSTD
> to the extensive use of operant conditioning of soldiers that occurred
> after WWII.

???  I've never heard of this, who performed this conditioning and 
what were they attempting to do?  I'd be very interested in hearing 
more about this.

-John sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: intrasystem jumps?
Message-ID: <200208031956.g73Jurw06881@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
...
>> and protect shipping between these points.  Convoys may be forced to
>> use jump ships to do intrasystem jumps to avoid raiders,
>
>Not likely, I would think.  That would cripple your economy worse than
>losing 70% of your ships.  You'd be better off escorting them in
>normal space, since non-jump ships are so much cheaper than jump
>capable ones.

  Under G:T? In CT the cost difference isn't all that marked - an
in-system transport designed under HG2 could have J-1 installed
with the tankage demountable. Most dedicated in-system freight
would be normal space (& possibly _very_ slow!), but the wartime
requirement for tonnage might be readied in such auxiliary ships?

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 14:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 13:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <E17arId-0004ch-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <C25B0D56-A71B-11D6-8894-000502884755@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

On Friday, August 2, 2002, at 10:16 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
>
> The fun part will come of someone figures out a moderately easy
> way to get someone into a simulator while making them think they
> are getting into the real thing.  You won't be able to pull that trick
> more than once on someone unless the sims are *really* good
> (and they might be), but it would be an *excellent* test of exactly
> how well a pilot has learned his or her lessons.

The *really* fun part is where some Bad Guy(TM) figures out how to take 
out the safeties, and make a sim that really *can* kill...

> --
Bruce Johnson

Wherever you go, there you are.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 14:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 13:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Blowing holes in Japan (was " Re Patton")
In-Reply-To: <F215m4i0FN8Qnr2Hs3j00000007@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <828EDE16-A71E-11D6-8894-000502884755@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

On Friday, August 2, 2002, at 08:27 PM, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>     The result may have been an Indochina similar to our Central 
> America, rat bastards in charge of corrupt, laughing-stock nations 
> supported by the West solely because they aren't communists.

>     Gee, ain't alternate history fun?

Me thinks back to Suharto, Marcos, Dieu, Kai-shek, whoever it was that 
ruled Korea for so long...I must ask, sir, what's so *alternate* about 
this history you're describing? ;-)

--
Bruce Johnson

Wherever you go, there you are.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 14:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug  3 13:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
In-Reply-To: <E17b4qf-0002Ab-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <B9718B94.67A59%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/3/02 12:44 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:

> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> 
>> While there is likely a connection between PTSD and rapid
>> reintegration back into 'normal' life, experts have also linked PSTD
>> to the extensive use of operant conditioning of soldiers that occurred
>> after WWII.
> 
> ???  I've never heard of this, who performed this conditioning and
> what were they attempting to do?  I'd be very interested in hearing
> more about this.

Operant conditioning was one of the center pieces of the army's new training
methods that were adopted as a results of the work of SLA Marshall.
Marshall reported that only a small fraction of infantryman in combat fired
their weapons.  Even though Marshall's seminal work "Men against fire" has
been called into question, there is little doubt that Marshall's theories
had a great impact on military training.  A classic example of the operant
conditioning that was adopted post WWII is in the case of basic rifle
marksmanship.  Until the 1950, rifle marksmanship consisted of firing at
conventional targets at known distances.  This was changed to firing at
human silhouettes at random ranges in conditioned meant to simulate combat.
Soldiers were 'conditioned' to fire automatically at human silhouette.

The program was successful.  The number of troops firing in combat went from
10-30% to over 90%.  Many psychiatrists and others in the field have
suggested that this operant conditioning may have had deleterious effects in
that it short circuits the natural human reluctance to kill.  There is a
detailed explanation of this theory in Grossman's "On Killing", and it has
received coverage in other works such as "An intimate history of killing"
and "Achilles in Vietnam"

Hope that helps.

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 14:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Sat Aug  3 13:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] PTSD
In-Reply-To: <E17b4qf-0002Ab-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208031349080.22611-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Sat, 3 Aug 2002 sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:

> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
>  
> > While there is likely a connection between PTSD and rapid
> > reintegration back into 'normal' life, experts have also linked PSTD
> > to the extensive use of operant conditioning of soldiers that occurred
> > after WWII.
> 
> ???  I've never heard of this, who performed this conditioning and 
> what were they attempting to do?  I'd be very interested in hearing 
> more about this.

I know very little about this, but recent studies with sexual assault
victims (a lot of PTSD cases in civilian life occur among sexual assault
victims) *have* shown that a lot of the things we used to do to prevent
PTSD don't work and seem to make the problem worse.  For instance,
they found that certain forms of "debriefing" which involved discussing
the incident over and over actually increased the likelihood of
flashbacks.  Apparently this only seems to fix and anchor the memories. 

I don't unfortunately still have the citation, but I read it on
www.medscape.com -- I get the Transplantation update because of my job but
also signed up for the Women's Health and Psychiatry updates because of
my personal health issues.  I know it's out there.

The current trend on PTSD according to a lecture I attended recently is
that there seems to be a window in which symptoms will or won't develop,
and that judicious use of other forms of therapy including drugs to
decrease the nervous system reactivity are more effective than
"debriefing" or operant conditioning.  Apparently one's brain chemistry
becomes much more reactive following a sexual assault or battle experience
or other trauma... and whether or not it stays that way is the deciding
factor for the development of PTSD.

Please remember that these people who used these ineffective treatments
weren't evil or careless; they were doing the best they had with the
information currently available.

Kiri :)

**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shadowcat)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Quote from a Martial Arts Newsgroup[OT]
Message-ID: <3D4BC3F3.19297.767088@localhost>

> Let's have a good old Elisha vs. the prophets of Baal showdown.  
You 
> pray to Allah, I'll pray to General Dynamics. We'll see who bursts 
> into flame first.

This wasnt attributed to source other than the newsgroup it was 
seen in


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for the Atro-genius Types (was: System Gen Help)
In-Reply-To: <c9.261a11c4.2a7d38e2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020803210827.89257.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>

Would it be possible for a planet be captured into an
L4 or L5 point on a Gas Giant?


>  >> I am doing an extended system generation.  I
> rolled
>  >> for #6 to be the max orbit.  I also rolled for 2
>  >> captured planets.  One is in orbit 6.3 and the
> other
>  >> is in 6.0
>  >> 
>  >> Orbit 6 and 5 are both SGG's.  4 is the
> mainworld and
>  >> the habitable zone.
>  >> 
>  >> Is this legitimate?  Or do I need to move the
> captured
>  >> planet in orbit 6.0 to somewhere else.


__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
In-Reply-To: <20020801210703.29080.82373.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentr
 al.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020803221209.00ac8e90@mail.pi.se>

Mr Greenly wrote:

>Would a world that has 80% of its surface covered by water, a dense
>nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, and one moon that is large enough to exert a
>tidal effect tend to be more or less climatically active? Assume
>moderate (terran-normal) vulcanism and a fairly non-polluting early TL
>aqua/agricultural society. Also assume standard polar ice caps and
>rotation around 20 deg. off the plane of the ecliptic. I'll welcome any
>and all comments...

Mr Greenly, I wish to apologize for the late reply.

Let me first say the result would depend on physiography (how do the 
continents look?), and what you mean with climatically active. Often people 
- not that I in any way wish to imply you do so in your question - confuse 
climate with weather. A world can have violent weather but uniform climate.

The second thing is that climate unless you do have a uniform world (like 
Venus) will vary, so what is standard climate is a bit like saying "this is 
a mountain world". Rather Star-Wars generalization. A world humans would 
endure on likely would not be so generic.

Okay, the basic difference is that you have a denser atmosphere and more 
oceanic surface.

This will lead to 1) more water vapor in the atmosphere giving more cloud 
cover. This moderates climate, and it moderates the diurnal differences. 
You may get very impressive storm systems _if_ oceans becomes warm enough 
to set of hurricanes. This is something you wish to check for your tropical 
zones - if the oceans are warmer than 27C you can expect severe storm 
belts. So you would get less climate but more weather.

It will also lead to 2) better heat transfer by oceans and atmosphere, as 
we have more atmosphere and more ocean. This however would depend on 
physiography too - you still have these icecaps, right? When Earth was 
warmer and more humid, there were no ice caps. So I'd guess most of your 
continents are pole-ward. That would lead to great variations near the 
polar ice caps - cold polar air, winds from the glaciers, great seasonal 
effects.

If we assume an Earth-like placement of continents, I'd wager the 
moderation would in general be something like 50% better than on Earth, and 
that would likely prevent ice caps to form on a large scale. In order to 
keep the ice caps, you need to lower temperatures worldwide. If you lower 
temperatures, the atmosphere will hold less water vapor, which means you 
will have less weather but more variable climate. You'd still have oceanic 
moderation and the dense atmosphere, so you would get a world on average 
cooler than Earth with less distinct climate zones.

The denser atmosphere would also influence aeolian erosion. But this is not 
as much a macro-climate issue, though it could be locally important for 
microclimate depending on the geomorphology and vegetation cover you intend 
to have. If you are interested in such ramblings - closer to my field, so 
to say - or want some elaboration or math on the stuff above feel free to 
contact me off-list. I fear I won't read the digests with much attention as 
long as the current post flurry goes on. (To put it diplomatically...)

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <98.29de0498.2a7d4f0e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c23b34$47c49940$a211bd50@martinjd>

> >You're thniking of everything in terms of a mapboard and counters. I'm
>  >discussing warfare.
>
> I'm thinking in terms of what the actually constructed vessels will do
> according to the rules, yes.

My point was always that a realistic game setting - my main concern - is not
the result of your fleet model, which is designed to play a game of High
Guard with. I've tried to show why other ships than dreadnoughts and scouts
or whatnot are necessessary and useful.

.  I'll take the hardware -- such as it is --
> and I'll have the last word.

I don't see what you mean by that comment. If you're claiming to be the High
Guard mastergenius then fine, whatever. You'll win High Guard games and the
Traveller universe will continue to have diverse classes of ships that you
think are pointless. All we've really established is that we have radically
different viewpoints. And I can live with that....



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Pixie Revisited (was: Imperial Taxes)
In-Reply-To: <4957.64.8.3.28.1028349006.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020803211533.94550.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>

--- hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head
> tax" or does it charge

If the Imperium uses a per main-world "head tax" then
that may help explain the Pixie's of the region. 
Convince the Scouts that the main world really is the
low population world, then the per main-world "head
tax" is based on that main world rather than the total
population of the system.

Thoughts?

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: UFO
In-Reply-To: <memo.479640@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020803212000.97843.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Megan Robertson <mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk>
wrote:
> Mexal.
> 
> (43 on Friday... "Second childhood? Heck, I haven't
> done with the first 
> one yet!")


A bout of 24-hour flu prevented me from much posting
or reading yesterday.

So let me wish a somewhat belated HAPPY BIRTHDAY to
you.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:21:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:21:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <3.0.5.16.20020803121034.44ff804c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <002c01c23b35$18ddf4e0$a211bd50@martinjd>

>
> You are still wedded to the idea that the Zho *wants* a fleet engagement.

My point precisely.

> You said it yourself: that's suicide.  So he keeps skirmishing.  Letting a
> massive fleet be seen in one place, which then jumps to several different
> worlds.  You come in and pick off a CruRon or two, but two jumps away,
> there is glowing slag where the orbital shipyards used to be.  Look up
> Quantril' Raiders, or the Rangers.  A diversified force can rip a superior
> force to shreds if they are careful.

Again. This is what I have in mind...




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Firearms in Vacuum
In-Reply-To: <20803.011715.6z8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c23b33$ea8b8c20$0c0a0a0a@glidenet.com>

Actually firearms work BETTER in a vacuum situation provided
that you overcome a few technical details...

expansion, contraction and cracking of materials due to extremes
in temperatures found in stellar environments.

Lubricants boiling away in vacuum, or gumming in near zero
temperatures.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com [mailto:tml-
> admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Leonard Erickson
> Sent: Saturday, 03 August, 2002 05:17
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Firearms in Vacumn
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > Leonard Erickson wrote:
> >>
> >> In mail you write:
> >>
> >> > "Robert Uhl " wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > No, but guns *have* been fired underwater (this is a somewhat
> >> >> > different situation than firing one with a barrel full of
water).
> >> >>
> >> >> Anyone here have any experience doing this?  I know that it's
> supposed
> >> >> to work, but I've never worked up the courage or folly necessary
to
> >> >> play with it.  I've a lot of respect for Things What Go Boom,
and
> I've
> >> >> little desire to annoy them...
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
> >> >> If your franchise is not secured by force of personal arms, you
are
> a
> >> >> subject, not a citizen.                               --H. Beam
> Piper
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> TML mailing list
> >> >> TML@travellercentral.com
> >> >> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> >> >
> >> > I launched a model rocket from underwater after seeing it in "The
> Model
> >> > Roceteer" It was very
> >> > impressive.
> >>
> >> Do you still have any copies of The Model Rocketeer? Mine got lost
a
> >> long time ago :-(
> >
> > I think so, I'll have a look next time I'm cleaning that part of the
> garage.
> > Anything in particular
> > or do you want that article on underwater launches?
> 
> Well, I'd like to have a set of the silly things, or at least a decent
> scan of them.
> 
> --
> Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:23:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:23:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <20020802231503.19852.60096.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com><3D4B3637.35538EB8@mailbag.com> <3.0.5.16.20020803114655.4717ae96@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <003301c23b35$47204d80$a211bd50@martinjd>

> Aieee!!! you said it three times!  At least no one has mentioned Leroy
yet...
> oh, damn.

Oh gods, people.

These things come in threes, right? Clif, Leroy....

And now I've mentioned Leroy twice!

We are doomed. Assemble the Penguins of Apocalypse!


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"
References: <B971637A.67A12%listmom@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <006701c23b36$590b9800$a211bd50@martinjd>

> > The answer? Learn to get along and abolish conflict.
> > Until then, we must accept the paradox and try to do the best we can not
to
> > cause needless suffering. But we will, all the same.

Okay. OBTRAV: I wrote a similar quote in Starmercs.


Or.... imagine how utterly riddled with compromise the 3I must be, trying to
find local get-along solutions to conflicts and issues that just won't go
away. No wonder there are so many nobles and diplomats out there trying to
keep everything down to an acceptable level.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] COTI website
Message-ID: <00af01c23b37$299584e0$a211bd50@martinjd>

Okay. All other stuff stopped as of now.

The reason I mentioned the site was that we've just added more crunchy
Traveller goodness, and maybe some tml members haven't seen it yet. And
we're paying for contributions, albeit not much.


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-to-the-Masses
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Gauss Round Velocity
In-Reply-To: <B96D6322.66F09%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c23b36$2a596690$0c0a0a0a@glidenet.com>

IMTU a gauss weapon barrel is slightly larger than the round itself.
The round floats within the magnetic field inside the barrel,
Thus the barrel does not ware out, only the coils.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com [mailto:tml-
> admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Tod Glenn
> Sent: Wednesday, 31 July, 2002 12:49
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Gauss Round Velocity
> 
> on 7/31/02 2:40 AM, Flykiller@aol.com at Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> 
> >
> > conventional barrels are just a piece of hardened steel, and even
they
> wear
> > out.  if you merely scratch the crown(?) of the barrel it can ruin
> accuracy.
> > I would think a gauss rifle barrel would be a very high-precision
piece
> of
> > electro-mechanical equipment, and that subjecting it to a rapid
series
> of
> > small sonic booms could disturb it a little.
> 
> 
> Certainly, that's possible.  I would expect that gauss rifle barrels
would
> be at least as durable at contemporary firearms.  In a military weapon
> that's typically in excess of 50,000 rounds.  Accuracy is not much of
an
> issue.  The required accuracy of a military weapon is not the same as
a
> target rifle.  The AK series is considered one of the premier military
> small
> arms, yet barely manages 5 MOA accuracy.
> 
> If we accept the gauss weapon as pictured and described on page 101 of
> Fire,
> Fusion and Steel first edition as canon, the barrel of a gauss rifle
is
> really nothing more than an electrical coil.  Certainly a structure
that
> can
> be made robust enough to be imperious to hypersonic shock.  If the
gauss
> rifle is some sort of rail gun weapon, the barrel is even simpler, and
> must
> be sufficiently strong to resist the intense magnetic forces acting to
rip
> the rail apart.  Again, and effect from sonic shockwave are likely to
be
> negligible.
> 
> Bear in mind that the air in the barrel is a gas, and highly
compressable.
> It is also probably at least a thousand times less dense than the
material
> the barrel is composed of.  That is certainly not to say that it will
be
> uneffected, buy any such effect are likely to be so small as to not be
> noteworthy.
> 
> On the other hand, there is not telling what effects the sudden and
> repeated
> surges of high powered magnetic flux will have on the material, or the
> firer
> for that matter.
> 
> --
> When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
> --
> Tod L Glenn
> webmaster@travellercentral.com
> http://www.travellercentral.com
> http://www.spinwardmarches.com
> http://www.solsec.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
Message-ID: <136.11daab1b.2a7daa90@aol.com>

 >Mines, even of a CAPTOR type, don't have much area coverage. You'd need a
 >lot of them to cover an area, though orbits and other choke points are a
 >possibility.

Well, yes, that's the point.

Does Traveller have any rules for mines?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"
In-Reply-To: <11c.14d66d9e.2a7ce27f@aol.com>
References: <11c.14d66d9e.2a7ce27f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <p04330101b972034c1c26@[143.232.119.186]>

At 3:38 AM -0400 8/3/02, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
>  >>>> "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!" >>>
>  >
>  >Under the rules of war, we've been discussing, if an enemy intentionally
>  >builds fortifications or other military structures among a civilian
>  >populance, then that enemy becomes rssponsible for the safety of those
>  >aforementioned civilians. If those civilians are actively and willfully
>  >supporting the enemy, then they are no longer considered noncombatants. So,
>  >it IS Al Quaida's fault and responsibility if the US intentionally seeks to
>  >bomb a legitimate military target that Al Qaida has hidden behind a human
>  >shield.
>
>I rest my case.
>
>"It's Milosivic's fault we bombed a convoy of farmers!"
>"It's Arafat's fault we bombed that apartment building!"
>"It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a convoy of inauguration representatives on
>the open road!"
>
>If I were to act with this level of disregard even in defense of my own
>children, I'd be in jail.  McVeigh was right -- "collateral damage" covers a
>multitude of sins.

Ironically, it is this attitude that, in fact, means that you will 
have _more_ civilian casualties.  It means that one side can put 
targets in the middle of civilians and be rewarded by their being 
protected or by their gaining condemnation of the other side.  This 
will only mean they will do it even more.  (Which, in fact, is what 
we see, the less moral are in fact doing just that).

If you really care about civilian casualties, you would join in say 
that that the world sould put pressure on those that deliberately 
court such deaths, those that use civilians as human shields....
-- 
_______________________________________________________________
David P. Summers, SETI Institute
Mail Stop 239-4
NASA Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000

650-604-6206
dsummers@mail.arc.nasa.gov

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <003301c23b35$47204d80$a211bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHGEECIKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

:
:

We are doomed. Assemble the Penguins of Apocalypse!

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

And us with a snowball's chance
 
jml
why penguins
I mean, take Howard Stern, he looks
and acts a lot more alien

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:12:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:12:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes
In-Reply-To: <4957.64.8.3.28.1028349006.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <4957.64.8.3.28.1028349006.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <p04330102b972055d98f1@[143.232.119.186]>

At 12:30 AM -0400 8/3/02, hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>Hello Folks,
>   Just a question of sorts...
>
>In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head tax" or does it charge
>an income tax on its citizens for its Imperial Budget requirements?  In
>short, if the Imperial government taxes 10% of a Gross Planetary Product,
>then it would in essence be an income tax.  If it charges a flat 500 CR
>per person on a planet, then it is a head tax.  Which is it?
>
>And I find it an interesting thought here.  If the Imperium charges say,
>3% of a planet's gross planetary product for its military taxes - this tax
>is on top of the local ruler's/government's tax.  How much in the way of
>taxes can a population take before its economy begins to stagnate?

My impression is that imperial taxes are very indirect (they collect 
money from the member states.  The only direct taxes are the fees 
they collect at starports?
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
Message-ID: <133.124edb2b.2a7daff5@aol.com>

 >> What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other 
 >> sensor systems 
 >> you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?
 >
 >I recommend you read Bruce Alan Macintosh's Definitive Sensor Rules for 
 >T4/FF&S2 for a complete discussion of sensors.  Passive sensors IRL 
 >would have ranges in space significanly better than those of active 
 >sensors such as radar.
 >
 >http://traveller.mu.org/house/sensor.rules.html

Great site, thanks.  But using this it looks like mines are right out.  I 
wish it were so easy to detect incoming asteroids and meteors in RL.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:26:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:26:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: troll optimization on the TML
Message-ID: <1aa.6256260.2a7db26e@aol.com>

 >> Mex, you need to have Fly run around the parade ground until 
 >> you get tired...
 >
 >Now THERE's a Good Idea :-)
 >
 >"Flykiller, front and centre!"

Ma'am, yes ma'am!  (thud thud thud thud)  Ma'am, Sgt. Flykiller reporting as 
ordered, ma'am!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:27:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:27:24 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was  COTI website)
In-Reply-To: <00af01c23b37$299584e0$a211bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <20020803222559.7D7BC2793F@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/03/02 at 10:45 PM,  "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
said:

>Okay. All other stuff stopped as of now.

>The reason I mentioned the site was that we've just added more
>crunchy Traveller goodness, and maybe some tml members haven't seen
>it yet. And we're paying for contributions, albeit not much.

Martin, Loren, Hunter, and all others involved in producing Traveller
oriented stuff,

IMO, I don't mind occasional reminders of "what you've got" and where
it is, I don't mind announcements when you've got something new and
exciting, I don't mind you asking us for our input on things, and I
don't mind you giving us your input on things. In fact, I appreciate
it, and hope you kept it up!  Now, if you started posting
advertisements every day and twice on Sundays, then that would be too
much, but none of you are, or are likely to start, doing that. 

So, to those that think Martan, Loren, et al are "spamming" this group
I politely offer the suggestion..."Go suck eggs!"  

And to the subjects of this post, I say, "Thank you for the work and
keeping us informed, and keep doing both!"

Eris,
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:29:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:29:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Gauss Round Velocity
In-Reply-To: <000c01c23b36$2a596690$0c0a0a0a@glidenet.com>
Message-ID: <B971A6EB.67A9C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/3/02 2:38 PM, Shawn R Sears at ShawnSears@telocity.com wrote:

> IMTU a gauss weapon barrel is slightly larger than the round itself.
> The round floats within the magnetic field inside the barrel,
> Thus the barrel does not ware out, only the coils.
> 

Just out of curiosity, why do the coils wear out?  There's no contact with
the projectile, just current generating a magnetic field, right?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] PTSD
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208031349080.22611-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208031349080.22611-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <m3ado3d16n.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Azalais Malfoy <tiamat@tsoft.com> writes:
>
> For instance, they found that certain forms of "debriefing" which
> involved discussing the incident over and over actually increased
> the likelihood of flashbacks.  Apparently this only seems to fix and
> anchor the memories.

That's what I've been saying for years: going on about a problem only
worsens it, like picking at a scab.  Better not to dwell on it, I'd
think, otherwise as you point out it becomes fixed in one's mind.

> The current trend on PTSD according to a lecture I attended recently
> is that there seems to be a window in which symptoms will or won't
> develop, and that judicious use of other forms of therapy including
> drugs to decrease the nervous system reactivity are more effective
> than "debriefing" or operant conditioning.  Apparently one's brain
> chemistry becomes much more reactive following a sexual assault or
> battle experience or other trauma... and whether or not it stays
> that way is the deciding factor for the development of PTSD.

So having a few drinks might help?  How amusing:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I'm reminded of the day my daughter came in, looked over my shoulder at
some Perl 4 code and said, `What is that, swearing?'       --Larry Wall

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:35:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:35:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <73.238e61b4.2a7db467@aol.com>

 >On the flip side, two of my friends (female friends) are more determined and
 >in absolute terms more capable than half the men in our martial arts class.
 >They're better than many who hold higher grades. They'd be barred under your
 >rules.

Fully capable men 40 years of age are also barred from enlistment.  There's a 
reason.

 >>that's not damning women, and that's not prejudice.
 >
 >Deciding the fate of half the human race - pre-judging their capabilities -
 >becuase of gender. Nah, that's notuing like prejudice.

Their fate?  I really don't think so.

 >Of course, the poor dears can't be expected to understand politics, manage
 >an estate or run a business either. Any you know? they couldn't do it. Not
 >until someone let them try.

They are trying it.  And it's causing far more damage than good.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:36:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:36:30 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEKPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEKPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <p04330103b9720a71cb73@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:47 PM -0700 8/2/02, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>  >From: "Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com>
>>Subject: [TML] re: Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
>traveller)
>>
>>With "freezer pop" soldiers, you might have people who wake
>>up, fight to the death for a week, then go back to sleep
>>until the next fight to the death crops up. No down time,
>>no ability to process what happened before it all starts
>>again.  Imagine the post-war condition of the average US
>
>For this reason, I doubt that the Imperial and Solomani militaries rely
>heavily on low berth for troop transportation.  The Zhodani may have an edge
>with better capabilities in psychology.
>
>>Forever War was a helluva book, btw.
>
>Agreed!


It seemed a good deal.  You aren't first into battle (you aren't any 
more likely to get killed since the unfrozen guys get killed first) 
and you don't have to deal with boredom between battles.  Odds are 
you sign up, get frozen, and wake up with all your pay waiting for 
you.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
Message-ID: <memo.581428@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <m3u1mbdi0l.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
> > Mind you, I was using an umbrella to crawl behind.  They couldn't
> > spot me visually, either.  I took a page from German tactics in
> > camouflage.
> 
> Oh, so you _weren't_ wearing a bright blue coat and bright red pants?
> However did you retain your lan?

I did on one occasion manage to hide in the middle of a clearing wearing a 
set of bright blue coveralls.

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:48:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:48:57 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
Message-ID: <memo.581429@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <200208031245370897.51623A1B@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
> BTW, if anyone is attending GenCon this year, be sure to stop by the 
> QLI booth (#841). Marc will be there as our guest and we'll have copies 
> of T20 Lite fresh off the presses!

Any plans for a presence at Gen Con UK?

Apart from the T20 lite scenario I'm writing, that is (characters 
courtesy of Mark Urbin). And our friends at BITS...

Oh, and you may have the scenario after Gen Con UK for the website.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.

PS. Hunter, did you get the e-mail I sent you?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Junk in space
In-Reply-To: <3865583847de.3847de386558@us.army.mil>
References: <3865583847de.3847de386558@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <20020804085749.A21861@freeman.little-possums.net>

john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:
> Why am I reminded of the "ravioli railgun" post of several years ago?  
[...]
> IIRC, one of our Scandinavian list members also has it archived.

Yes, I've got that one archived too. :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Off I go
Message-ID: <F253RGE9fkM0PhDK4TI00026147@hotmail.com>

I've sent an unsub request to the listmom, I should
be gone for a week.  If someone has an email for me,
it should make it to this email account, at least
until it fills with spam.  Much as I hate to walk out
in the middle of such interesting discussions, it is
family vacation time!

My sister's marriage to one of Uncle Sam's Misguided
Children has made the beachfront cabins of Camp Lejeaune
available to me and mine, so I hope in a day or two to
have my little ones playing in the water at a beach in
the Carolinas while I watch amphibious assault exercises
through my binoculars.  My brother-in-law has been a long
time away on the Tarawa, so my sister and her kids are
looking forward to some family company.

With any luck, a day trip to the USS North Carolina
will round out the visit.  I've been really looking
forward to it.

Leroy, Cliff, and now Flykiller...this list never
ceases to entertain!  :-)

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:00:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:00:04 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
Message-ID: <168.1196d69b.2a7dba32@aol.com>

 >>  >Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
 >>  >big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.
 >> 
 >> What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other sensor 
systems 
 >> you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?
 >
 >Well, the problem is that even if you have literally thousands of
 >them, the nearest one will likely pass tens of thousands of kilometres
 >from the target.  So they need pretty good sensors, which means
 >significant cost and size.
 > ....
 >Worse still, we're talking about insystem relative speeds which are
 >often on the order of megametres per second.  In a typical Traveller
 >space combat sequence, the ship gets a million kilometres away during
 >the combat round in which it is detected.

I was envisioning them as being simply chemical missiles.  In orbit around a 
gas giant would be a good place.  The ships have to go there, they can't go 
all that fast while scooping, and there is a horizon beyond which they'll 
have trouble seeing (if they can see through a horizon at all).  They 
shouldn't need tremendous sensors for such a location.  Or maybe they could 
be floating just below the surface of the water in a system with only water 
fuel available.  They wouldn't have to sense much, just a big thing blocking 
out the sun or maybe a large magnetic disturbance, and their target would 
hardly be moving.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <B97163D2.67A14%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <fc.1bc430d6.2a7d06b7@aol.com> <B97163D2.67A14%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020804090304.B21861@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> Nothing says that mines need to be static, waiting for something to hit
> them.  A mine could be nothing more than a large missile with high
> acceleration and short range waiting for some ship to come into range.

In fact, it pretty much *has* to be a missile.  Quite a lot bigger,
because it needs its own sensor array, more endurance than a normal
missile, and better defences.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: intrasystem jumps?
In-Reply-To: <200208031956.g73Jurw06881@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
References: <200208031956.g73Jurw06881@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <20020804090450.C21861@freeman.little-possums.net>

Steven Hudson wrote:

> From: Timothy Little
> > You'd be better off escorting them in normal space, since non-jump
> >ships are so much cheaper than jump capable ones.
 
>   Under G:T?

Yes.  That's the only version of Traveller I have now.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: UFO
Message-ID: <memo.581874@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <20020803212000.97843.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
> > Mexal.
> > 
> > (43 on Friday... "Second childhood? Heck, I haven't
> > done with the first 
> > one yet!")
> 
> 
> A bout of 24-hour flu prevented me from much posting
> or reading yesterday.
> 
> So let me wish a somewhat belated HAPPY BIRTHDAY to
> you.

Why, thank you kind sir. Hope you are feeling better now.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:10:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:10:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: troll optimization on the TML
Message-ID: <memo.581875@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <1aa.6256260.2a7db26e@aol.com>
>  >"Flykiller, front and centre!"
> 
> Ma'am, yes ma'am!  (thud thud thud thud)  Ma'am, Sgt. Flykiller 
> reporting as ordered, ma'am!

"Don't call me Ma'am, I work for a living!"

[And there we'd better leave it, as drilling you is not really very 
Traveller-related!]

Hugs and kisses,

Sergeant Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Bryn=20Monnery?=)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Gauss Round Velocity
Message-ID: <20020803231411.23203.qmail@web13903.mail.yahoo.com>

>>The gauss rifle fires 4 mm, 4 gram needles
(silently) at 1500 m/s, with a Striker/MegaTraveller
penetration of 7 out 
to 600 m and 4 dice of damage (and 3 attacks if you
fire a 10-round 
burst):<<

1,500mps is believable, the highest MV for a real
service weapon I know of is the M-16 firing 5.56mm US
(not 5.56mm NATO) which was a 3.56g round going
1050mps.

However, throwing 4g that fast? That's an ME of
4,500j, sufficient to penetrate 22mm of armour steel
at close range, recoil is less than an SLR though
(only 6 ms-1kg-1).

4,500mps is ridiculous though, twice the muzzle energy
of a .50 Cal, penetrating 68mm of armour steel. 

Bryn


=====
"I knew it on the roof that night. We were brothers, Roy Batty and I! Combat models of the highest order. We had fought in wars not yet dreamed of... in vast nightmares still unnamed. We were the new people... Roy and me and Rachael! We were made for this world. It was ours!"

- Final Line of Blade Runner: Original Preview Cut

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you'll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <168.1196d69b.2a7dba32@aol.com>
References: <168.1196d69b.2a7dba32@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020804093340.D21861@freeman.little-possums.net>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> I was envisioning them as being simply chemical missiles.  In orbit
> around a gas giant would be a good place.

Except for one thing: it's wartime.  The defenders have been there
first with their own sensor platforms and semi-autonomous missiles,
less expensive per unit than yours for the same capability.  Probably
also a few large system monitors and at least a few dozen SDBs.
Furthermore, your launches are detected and tracked automatically and
your mines will be shot before emplacing themselves.

We are talking about a system with an annual economy of around 10 TCr,
remember.  They can afford to spend 10 GCr per year on gas-giant
defence even in peacetime, let alone war.


>  The ships have to go there,

No.  Local traffic refuels at their starports, which are in turn
refuelled from any of thousands of locations, almost certainly
including the very well-defended surface of the mainworld.  Hydrogen
is *not* a scarce resource by any stretch of the imagination.

*You* are far more likely to need to go to the gas giant than the
defenders are, since you don't have the luxury of hanging around to
exploit other sources.  Mining and patrolling the gas giant makes
perfect sense for the defenders.  It makes no sense for you.


>  Or maybe they could be floating just below the surface of the water
> in a system with only water fuel available.They wouldn't have to
> sense much, just a big thing blocking out the sun or maybe a large
> magnetic disturbance, and their target would hardly be moving.

"Big thing blocking out the sun"!?

Do you have any idea how *huge* a planet is?  Earth's oceans cover
more than three hundred million square kilometres.  Even if the ships
coming in to refuel were absolutely blind and picked their refuelling
locations completely at random, and were a hundred metres in diameter,
any given mine would have a one in a hundred billion chance of having
a ship "block out the sun".  Can you drop even one *million* mines?

I think you need to run the numbers a bit.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:37:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:37:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes
References: <memo.572871@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <000301c23b46$ef5882e0$2a74fea9@imogen>

Mexal wrote:
> IMTU, the Imperium taxes its member planets. How that planet
> chooses to raise the money to meet the Imperial tax bill is up
> to them.
> 
> Most just hike their own income tax a fraction of a percent. 
> 
> Some, especially those who are lukewarm about their membership,
> charge a separate 'Imperial Tax' to make the point that people
> are being charged for the privilege.
> 
> Some levy the tax on what they perceive as being the benefits
> of belonging to the Imperium, such as interstellar trade.

This is similar to how I treat taxes IMTU also.  (Actually,  'cos
most of my campaigns have the PCs still in active service its not
usually a feature,  however  ...)  I  also  tend  to  relate  tax
complexity to society's age (look at population, law  level,  and
government type for implied  indicators).  Young  societies  will
only have a few key taxes (whether poll tax, income tax, or sales
tax, maybe a couple of them).  But as societies age more and more
taxes are added.  Older societies have complex  tax  systems  ...
including needing permits (with fees) for just about  everything.
Poll tax, income tax, sales tax, business tax, air/raft  tax,  TV
ownership tax, visitor's tax, residency  tax,  fuel  tax,  excess
size on public transport tax, driving  in  congested  areas  tax,
driving on fast road tax, inheritance tax, internet  data  volume
tax, pet ownership tax, book tax, fast food litter  tax,  capital
gains tax, import tax, export tax, customs duty tax, labour union
membership tax, recreational drug tax (alcohol, tobacco,  other),
education tax, stock market tax, cargo broker  tax,  travel  tax,
hospital tax, legal tax, gun ownership tax, ammunition tax, sword
ownership tax, radio  broadcast  tax,  cellphone  tax,  unmuzzled
Vargr tax, consumption of meat tax, marriage tax, pregnancy  tax,
temple tax, etc, etc, etc ...

At some point tax ceases to be about raising funds and becomes an
instrument  for  social  engineering.  So   a   government   with
separatist leanings on a  world  with  an  "Imperial  Tax"  might
increase it higher than the world's actual Imperial contribution.

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prejudice (OT)
Message-ID: <55.2b3ad1ac.2a7dc32f@aol.com>

 >> There is no right to be in the military.
 >
 >Okay. "I believe that people have the basic right to self-determination. If
 >the military exists and some people want to be in it, they have the right to
 >try to meet its absolute standards and if they do, to be accepted. IE the
 >right not to be debarred from service on the grounds of a generalization."
 >
 >Is that better?

It's a restatement of the same thing.  No, I subscribe completely to the 
concept of "the needs of the service".  The service collects volunteers it 
finds acceptable, or drafts those it requires.  It just as easily dismisses 
anyone it thinks it doesn't need.  It sets its standards because it knows 
(hopefully) what needs to be done and how to do it.  It is not a business 
opportunity, or a club, or a government social agency.  It is a serious 
organization with a difficult job, and there is no right to its membership.

The military rejects enlistment of those 32 and older (if I recall 
correctly), because of the problems it would encounter if it did accept such 
enlistments.  This sweeping generalization rejects over half of our 
population out of hand, even though some could do the job, but the 
generalization is accepted because the generalization is valid.  Do you think 
it's valid?  I do.  I think that similar evidence exists for a similar 
sweeping generalization of female enlistment as well.  Some people find this 
offensive, but the facts remain, and only political pressures keep them from 
being responded to.  I am putting the needs of the service first.  Others 
have other priorities.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:41:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:41:06 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
References: <168.1196d69b.2a7dba32@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00d301c23b48$adaa52e0$a211bd50@martinjd>

>
> I was envisioning them as being simply chemical missiles.  In orbit around
a
> gas giant would be a good place.  The ships have to go there, they can't
go
> all that fast while scooping, and there is a horizon beyond which they'll
> have trouble seeing (if they can see through a horizon at all).  They
> shouldn't need tremendous sensors for such a location.  Or maybe they
could
> be floating just below the surface of the water in a system with only
water
> fuel available.  They wouldn't have to sense much, just a big thing
blocking
> out the sun or maybe a large magnetic disturbance, and their target would
> hardly be moving.

This type of cheap CAPTOR type mine isn't much good against a serisou
warship, but as a deterrent to small vessels or merchant-based corsairs it,
an option (IMO). No good in deep space but seeded at a choke point like
optimium skimming level they might be dense enough to be useful.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:43:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:43:11 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
References: <memo.581429@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <00e701c23b48$fd6a9560$a211bd50@martinjd>

> 
> Oh, and you may have the scenario after Gen Con UK for the website.
> 

You're a sweetie.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:45:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:45:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Declarations of War
References: <19b.65b1e1c.2a7d49d4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4C1847.3361F3DE@mindspring.com>

DN: What is the status of his fleet at Cipango and Cronor?  If he has that much out in my areas,
then his central fleet is weakened.  If I can put two task  forces each on Cipango and maybe Ninjar
then _his_ logistics train will be cut entirely, and they'll provide a welcoming committee to any
Zhodie ships that straggle back home looking for support.  Further I'll send the fleet raider task
force to shoot up whatever they can in other worlds in that area. Two can play this game, only I'll
do it with concentrated task forces. Let the consule at Cronor yell at _his_ commander:  "There are
a thousand frigates at Querion!  Do something!"
I'll leave Jewell exposed and do that.  Then I'll send out some of my task forces individually to
locate and mop up these isolated forces, using an extensive scout network to relay information on
their activities and ship counts.  I'll plot their courses and attempt to determine where they want
to go.  Not that this would be hard to guess anyway -- I'm sure the Zhodies will bypass Pscias and
go for Rethe if they can.
 
A: Zho fleet elements will strike at weak targets on the border, but you won't know if they retired
afterward or are advancing.
 
DN: Assume they're advancing.
 
A: Your intelligence will be a mess of vessel reports,
 
DN: This can be sorted out.  It may take a few hours, but I'm sure my staff is efficient.( A flurry
of coughing breaks out) and while the attacks on minor worlds are trivial from a military
standpoint, those are imperial citizens being shot up. Yes, they will have to wait. Soon it will be
the Zhodies turn to be shot up.
 
A: Some border  worlds will be assaulted by ground forces and placed under occupation. The subsector
dukes will want those worlds retaken. They'll want the raids stopped.
 
DN: Everything in due time.  The Dukes will have to be big boys.  And likely they are.  When the
Zhodie fleet has been rolled back, I'll send in the troop transports.  Not until then. You're trying
to make me panic.  I won't. If the Zhodies have scattered a lot of their fleet through my sector
then I'll roll them up one at a time with my task forces at no risk to myself. It'll take a while,
but it will be done.  Zhodane is mostly at tech 14, and tech 14 wallows in the mud against tech 15.
I've tried every possible Zhodie fleet combination against the Spinward Marches fleet that I can
think of, pitting 7 AE worlds against what Mora and Trin can build, and his only chance is to stick
together. Instead, I will make the Zhodies panic. In 500 years the Imperium has never taken
offensive action against the Zhodane. The Imperium has always reacted, defended, retreated, lost
worlds. I'll make the Zhodies defend and react to me.  I will cut their lines, sit astride their
repair facilities, and put capital ships where they have not been for 500 years, forcing the Zhodies
to
come to me. Riverland and Cronor used to be Imperial. I will have them back. When the Imperial Fleet
reinforcements arrive, I just might get them.


-From a briefing on a proposed Zhodani campaign to the admirals of the Imperial fleets of the Domain
of Deneb aboard the newly commissioned 'Duke of Deneb' 188-1118.
* A autotranscriber malfunction rendered the Archdukes colloquial 'Joies" into 'Zhodies'

IMMTU ;)
Thanks everyone!
-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:47:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:47:12 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was  COTI website)
References: <20020803222559.7D7BC2793F@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00fa01c23b49$63e1f7c0$a211bd50@martinjd>

> 
> So, to those that think Martan, Loren, et al are "spamming" this group
> I politely offer the suggestion..."Go suck eggs!"  

Heh. If you can't announce trav content on the trav website, what's it for?

That said, the "spam" reference was, I belive, tongue in cheek.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:49:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:49:23 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
References: <136.11daab1b.2a7daa90@aol.com>
Message-ID: <010901c23b49$c1301380$a211bd50@martinjd>

> >Mines, even of a CAPTOR type, don't have much area coverage. You'd need a
>  >lot of them to cover an area, though orbits and other choke points are a
>  >possibility.
>
> Well, yes, that's the point.
>
> Does Traveller have any rules for mines?
>

Now there's an idea for a Traveller's Aide... Mines, Missiles and Drones.
Anyone think they can get 15,000 words and a few T20 ship/item designs out
of the topic?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:51:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:51:08 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <200207300931.43410.red@archonet.com>
References: <a1.2b0beec6.2a7744c0@aol.com>
 <m3n0savvj9.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> <200207300931.43410.red@archonet.com>
Message-ID: <p04330105b9721bbfdb97@[143.232.119.186]>

One thing to remember is that there is a psychological difference 
between having to take direct action that will result in your death 
and doing something this is likely to get you killed.  That last bit 
of hope makes a big difference.  I was at the Texas Air Museum (is 
that what it was called?) and they had one of the buzz bombs the 
Germans were rigging to be piloted.  While it was recognized that the 
mission was likely to be suicidal (the pilots signed a form stating 
they knew that) they did give them parachutes so that they could at 
least _try_ and get out.  (though at dive speeds of 500 mph that 
wasn't considered likely....)
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:54:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:54:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Declarations of War
In-Reply-To: <3D4C1847.3361F3DE@mindspring.com>
References: <19b.65b1e1c.2a7d49d4@aol.com> <3D4C1847.3361F3DE@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m31y9fcxd9.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

I'm afraid that your post was well-nigh unreadable, as it was not
wrapped at 80 chars...

72 is even better: it allows folks who do not re-flow text to quote it
without running over.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The pistol is not a weapon; it is an impertinence.  If two men are to
kill one another, they should do so face-to-face, not from a distance,
like vile highwaymen.      --Arturo Perez-Reverte, The Fencing Master

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] prejudice (OT)
Message-ID: <15f.11b58134.2a7dc76b@aol.com>

 >I notice that you're "done here" about the fleet thing. From where I'm
 >sitting, that seems to mean you've dismissed all the arguments I raised and
 >decided that you don't need to think about them. You still haven't
 >adequately explained what you mean to do about an enemy that won't give you
 >that pre-arranged setpiece. Or in any other "real war" situation either.

I think your notion of "real war" and mine are different.  I've explained 
mine over and over again as adequately as I could, and I've tried to respond 
to yours, but I don't feel we're connecting, and I don't feel like my view of 
it is being addressed.  Your stuff was all good, and I didn't dismiss 
anything, but going on 0300 or so I just felt like I was beginning to repeat 
myself, and I'm losing sleep trying to keep up with this mailing list because 
it takes me so long to think and reply.  I think the only way to actually 
address the issues we both brought up is not by talking but by an actual 
campaign game, complete with full background, to see who has it right.  I 
think I'm right, but heck, I'm a virgin, I've never played, so I don't 
actually know.  I'd love to run a game, but I don't see how we could.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 18:09:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 17:09:37 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
References: <15f.11b58134.2a7dc76b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000601c23b4c$a7ca4700$bc0cbd50@martinjd>

I think the only way to actually
> address the issues we both brought up is not by talking but by an actual
> campaign game, complete with full background, to see who has it right.

I think this is the only way - a campaign game, with political rules and
such like. It'd be more simulation than game, but what an interesting
exercise!

Meantime, as we've already agreed, we're coming from such wildly different
points of view that there's no point in further argument... but for the
record, I think you *would* beat me in a HG game, because your viewpoint is
(IMO) more aimed at operating within the game parameters, and your designs
better optimised for that.

But anyway... let's put this interesting debate to bed...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 18:11:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 17:11:13 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Military Psychology
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEKPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <p04330103b9720a71cb73@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <3D4C70A1.852C61C@mindspring.com>

"David P. Summers" wrote:
> 
> At 9:47 PM -0700 8/2/02, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> >  >From: "Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com>
> >
> >>With "freezer pop" soldiers, you might have people who wake
> >>up, fight to the death for a week, then go back to sleep
> >>until the next fight to the death crops up. No down time,
> >>no ability to process what happened before it all starts
> >>again.  Imagine the post-war condition of the average US
> >
> >For this reason, I doubt that the Imperial and Solomani militaries rely
> >heavily on low berth for troop transportation.  The Zhodani may have an edge
> >with better capabilities in psychology.

> It seemed a good deal.  You aren't first into battle (you aren't any
> more likely to get killed since the unfrozen guys get killed first)
> and you don't have to deal with boredom between battles.  Odds are
> you sign up, get frozen, and wake up with all your pay waiting for
> you.
> --IMMTU the frozen watch are a volonteer career force . They are wakened as needed and also every four years for additional training and acclimatization(R&R) if not woken earlier. They receive full pay, and must serve 60 years with wakened time counting double for time in service.



-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 18:21:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 17:21:12 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
In-Reply-To: <memo.581429@cix.compulink.co.uk>
References: <memo.581429@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <200208032020140469.53026F37@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 8/3/2002 at 11:47 PM mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:

>In-Reply-To: <200208031245370897.51623A1B@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
>> BTW, if anyone is attending GenCon this year, be sure to stop by the 
>> QLI booth (#841). Marc will be there as our guest and we'll have copies 
>> of T20 Lite fresh off the presses!
>
>Any plans for a presence at Gen Con UK?
>
>Apart from the T20 lite scenario I'm writing, that is (characters 
>courtesy of Mark Urbin). And our friends at BITS...

Woohoo! No official plans for this year, but next year we will arrange a=
 booth. In the meantime, would copies of T20 Lite to hand out help? I think=
 we have enough time that I might be able to ship some to you after I get=
 back from GenCon here.

>Oh, and you may have the scenario after Gen Con UK for the website.

Thanks!

>PS. Hunter, did you get the e-mail I sent you?

I just went and looked at it after you mentioned it, I must have missed it=
 previously. I sometimes miss them if they come to the email address I use=
 for the TML because they get mixed in with all of the other posts. I do=
 apologize! A reply is on its way.

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 18:30:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Aug  3 17:30:13 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
Message-ID: <F22igG68YuXKL951y1M0002578e@hotmail.com>

From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com>

     "I think he is just trying to draw attention to the new Traveller 
webzine we have opened, rather than anything specific."


Mr. Gordon,

     Why, that is splendid news, sir!  I wish you every success with the new 
webzine.  "More" definitely IS "merrier"!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 18:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Aug  3 17:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] COTI website
Message-ID: <F206YSDMyZFlAWAaPJb00000025@hotmail.com>

From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>

     "The reason I mentioned the site was that we've just added more crunchy 
Traveller goodness, and maybe some tml members haven't seen it yet."


Mr. Dougherty,

     I hadn't and thanks for the heads up!  Mr. Gordon already posted the 
great news about the launch of your webzine.  "More" definitely IS 
"merrier"!
     Thanks again.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 18:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 17:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
Message-ID: <memo.582869@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <200208032020140469.53026F37@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
> Woohoo! No official plans for this year, but next year we will arrange 
> a booth. In the meantime, would copies of T20 Lite to hand out help? I 
> think we have enough time that I might be able to ship some to you 
> after I get back from GenCon here.

It would be good to have you if you can make it. I'll keep you posted on 
dates/locations for next year as soon as WE know :-)

> >Oh, and you may have the scenario after Gen Con UK for the website.
> 
> Thanks!

My pleasure.

> >PS. Hunter, did you get the e-mail I sent you?
> 
> I just went and looked at it after you mentioned it, I must have missed 
> it previously. I sometimes miss them if they come to the email address 
> I use for the TML because they get mixed in with all of the other 
> posts. I do apologize! A reply is on its way.

Reply received & responded to. Sorry, only e-mail I had for you. T'other 
one now safely tucked away for future correspondence.

Oh yes, copies of T20 Lite would be handy. I'll e-mail a postal address 
for you.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 18:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug  3 17:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Gauss Round Velocity
In-Reply-To: <20020803231411.23203.qmail@web13903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B971C9C6.67B02%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/3/02 4:14 PM, Bryn Monnery at littlegreenmen.geo@yahoo.com wrote:

> 
> 1,500mps is believable, the highest MV for a real
> service weapon I know of is the M-16 firing 5.56mm US
> (not 5.56mm NATO) which was a 3.56g round going
> 1050mps.

And the SPIW built by AAI was capable of firing flechettes at around 1500
m/s back in the 1960s.  Also, Hughes managed to get a modified M-16 to fire
at almost double the velocity of a standard round as part of their CAP
project in the mid 1980s.
> 
> However, throwing 4g that fast? That's an ME of
> 4,500j, sufficient to penetrate 22mm of armour steel
> at close range, recoil is less than an SLR though
> (only 6 ms-1kg-1).
> 
> 4,500mps is ridiculous though, twice the muzzle energy
> of a .50 Cal, penetrating 68mm of armour steel.
> 
> Bryn

Not so remarkable when one looks at the performance of current railguns.  We
are speaking of TL12 technology, after all.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 19:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 18:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
In-Reply-To: <memo.582869@cix.compulink.co.uk>
References: <memo.582869@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <200208032111180685.533130CF@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 8/4/2002 at 1:43 AM mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:

>In-Reply-To: <200208032020140469.53026F37@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
>> Woohoo! No official plans for this year, but next year we will arrange 
>> a booth. In the meantime, would copies of T20 Lite to hand out help? I 
>> think we have enough time that I might be able to ship some to you 
>> after I get back from GenCon here.
>
>It would be good to have you if you can make it. I'll keep you posted on 
>dates/locations for next year as soon as WE know :-)

I'm not sure if I can make it, but I would love to and will try like hell!=
 If I can't however, Martin can.

Hunter


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 19:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 18:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Gauss Round Velocity
Message-ID: <200208040113.LZX01145@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>Not so remarkable when one looks at the performance of 
>current railguns.  We are speaking of TL12 technology, after 
>all.

That, and today it's not the size of the rails that are the 
problem (or even the wear and tear).  It's the power 
conditioning equipment.  They're already making progress 
enough to replace the aircraft carrier catapult with a 
railgun.  The power conditioning equipment is already orders 
of magnitude smaller than 10 years ago.  By the time we reach 
TL12...
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 19:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Sat Aug  3 18:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Paging Martin Dougherty
In-Reply-To: <00fa01c23b49$63e1f7c0$a211bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <20020804013343.15643.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>

Martin,

I hadn't heard from you, and was wondering if you got
the info you had asked for.

Let me know, I can send it again if you haven't gotten
it yet.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 19:35:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug  3 18:35:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Gauss Round Velocity
In-Reply-To: <200208040113.LZX01145@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B971D2B3.67B15%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/3/02 6:13 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> That, and today it's not the size of the rails that are the
> problem (or even the wear and tear).  It's the power
> conditioning equipment.  They're already making progress
> enough to replace the aircraft carrier catapult with a
> railgun.  The power conditioning equipment is already orders
> of magnitude smaller than 10 years ago.  By the time we reach
> TL12...

Just in the last couple of years, compulsator power has gone  while size
continues to decline.

For those interested in railguns in general, try
http://home.insightbb.com/~jmengel4/rail/rail-intro.html
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 20:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sat Aug  3 19:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
References: <20020803223629.15105.10842.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <005301c23b5b$c2967c20$2a5d8690@computer>

From: Tyge
> The second thing is that climate unless you do have a uniform world (like
> Venus) will vary, so what is standard climate is a bit like saying "this
> is a mountain world". Rather Star-Wars generalization. A world humans
> would endure on likely would not be so generic.

Actually I've been playing with this silly idea a bit over the last few
months.

If a world is sparsely populated enough, the entire population might live in
a single small area. This area would then be "the world" as far as climate,
geography and so on go.

I was working on a bit of a heretical almost-not-Traveller system, where
systems, worlds and so on are abstracted down to a few important areas, like
the area around the starport, the patch of space around the mainworld, and
so on. (If the PCs go outside the "important areas", new "important areas"
can be created.)

Handling worlds "Star Wars style" would be perfectly acceptable in this
case, as long as you understand what you are doing.

Then again, my other heresy is a bit of a fondness for placing colonies on
non-habitable worlds. Basically I see it as simpler to establish an
artificial terrestrial ecosystem than to muck about with an existing
non-terrestrial one. Such colonies would pretty much be domed, and possess a
relatively uniform climate.

Terraforming could occur in the long-term, of course. These are the most
plausible "habitable worlds", IMHO, since they are made to be suitable for
human settlement. But of course, terraforming takes time, and the scale (and
violence!) of the chemical reactions involved suggest that it would take a
long time. You are not just changing the composition of the atmosphere - you
are changing the composition of the crust. Even if you can force the change
to occur very quickly, I doubt that the geology would settle down in much
less than a thousand years or so. That's the blink of an eye in geological
terms, of course.

A terraformed world would have a full set of climates. The situation where
settlement is limited to a specific area might still occur.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com







From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 20:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 19:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
In-Reply-To: <F22igG68YuXKL951y1M0002578e@hotmail.com>
References: <F22igG68YuXKL951y1M0002578e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <200208032212560742.53699E59@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 8/4/2002 at 12:29 AM Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com>
>
>     "I think he is just trying to draw attention to the new Traveller 
>webzine we have opened, rather than anything specific."
>
>Mr. Gordon,
>
>     Why, that is splendid news, sir!  I wish you every success with the
>new 
>webzine.  "More" definitely IS "merrier"!

Thank you sir! I would like to note that the CotI webzine is for ALL=
 versions of our favorite game, not just T20. We're happy to consider=
 articles and material for publication for any ruleset and milieu, along=
 with 'variant' articles as well.

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 20:40:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 19:40:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Superstition (and movies)
Message-ID: <102.1921e4ba.2a7dede0@aol.com>

>>Several years ago, I was toying with the notion of writing a book of war 
>>movie reviews discussing the relative level of accuracy of each (although I 

>>think it has already been done). GETTYSBURG is one of my faves in this 
>>regard. 
>
>Great film.  "General, I have no division..."

I'm torn as to which scene I like better . . . Sgt. Kilrain declaiming on why 
he's fighting the war ("I'll be treated as _I_ deserve, not as my father 
deserved."), Colonel Chamberlain declaiming on why HE'S fighting the war, or 
the whole Little Round Top sequence, or Lee meditating on soldiering's one 
great trap, or Lee reading the riot act to Stuart ("Your cavalry, General, 
are the eyes of this army . . . without them, we are made blind.") -- or any 
one of a dozen or so more. 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 21:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 20:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Superstition (and movies)
Message-ID: <200208040300.MAB00894@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

LKW says
>I'm torn as to which scene I like better . . .

Nope.  Although I hated the movie Blues Brothers 2000, 
there's a scene where Dan Aykroyd "rallies the troops" with a 
major slam against the current music scene.

I have given a similar speech to youth at a Wizards of the 
Coast store who thought that video games were more fun than 
roleplaying games.  Not sure if I got any converts...

But I did drop Loren's name.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 21:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 20:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
Message-ID: <200208040317.MAB01365@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

(We should come up with a longer list of names below)

You may go play video games if you wish.

Remember this: Walk away now and you walk away from your 
interest in history, your ability to tell a good story, your 
ability to translate dreams into reality; leaving the next 
generation with nothing but recycled, unimaginative first-
person shooters, online quasi-historical strategy games, yet 
another multiplayer NFL game, violence-laden driving 
simulations, and mindless revisions of innumerable cute 
Japanese animations. Depart now and you forever separate 
yourselves from the vital gaming legacies of James Dunnigan, 
Steve Jackson, Gary Gygax, Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank 
Chadwick, Andrew Keith, William Keith, John Harshman, 
Professor Barker, 
and Richard Tucholka.

(Doug says, 'Who is Richard Tucholka?' )

Turn your backs now and you snuff out the fragile candles of 
Board Gaming, Miniatures, Fantasy and Science Fiction 
Roleplaying, and when those flames flicker and expire, the 
light of the world is extinguished because the creative 
thought which has moved mankind through the decades leading 
to the millenium will wither and die on the vine of 
abandonment and neglect. 


________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 22:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 21:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22C8B@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <20803.205539.2T1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Time-Travel is a huge no-no. Do I have something against it? Yes and no.
> It's entertaining and fascinating to speculate on, but it would seriously
> unbalance a campaign.
> I also like the idea that consequences of one's actions are
> irreversable...Time Travel far too often gives one an out to correct
> mistakes.

Well, the theoretical work that physicists have done on the possibility
of time travel in the real world says that two things will be true if
it's possible:

1. You can't travel back before the instant the machione is first
   activated.

2. You can't alter the past. You'd have free will to the exact extent
   that you *don't* know what happened. 

This can frustrate the hell out of people. <eg>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 22:21:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sat Aug  3 21:21:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Superstition (and Movies)
In-Reply-To: <d.2aca729a.2a7ca6f7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4D53F6.19862.BBFCC9@localhost>

On 2 Aug 2002, at 23:24, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> Several years ago, I was toying with the notion of writing a book of war movie
> reviews discussing the relative level of accuracy of each (although I think it
> has already been done). GETTYSBURG is one of my faves in this regard. 

My one beef with the movie (other than those I have with the battle itself) is 
that if Pickett had as many men in real life as he had in the movie, he'd 
have been across that field and half way to Washington before the final 
credits.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 22:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sat Aug  3 21:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <3.0.5.16.20020803121034.44ff804c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <008701c23b70$f1af5210$7400a8c0@matt>

> Which Roman was it that got ripped to shreds in Germany?

Varus, IIRC

Matt



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 22:41:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sat Aug  3 21:41:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Landgrab
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMEFHIKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

I'm landgrabbing Macene, Rhylanor 2612


________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 23:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 22:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <3.0.5.16.20020803123126.44ff6796@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3D4CB61E.AF2B843D@mindspring.com>

"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:
> 
> At 11:12 AM 8/3/2002 EDT, you wrote:
> 
> >And that will work in my favor, as much of the Spinward Population lives in
> >the highly protected worlds of Trin, Mora, Glisten, Rhylanor, and Palique,
> >and the main fleet is very close by to Rethe, Louzy, Lunion, Jewell, and
> >Vilis.  That's almost half of the Spinward Marches on those planets alone.
> 
> My Sword World allies will tie down the Lunion and Glisten fleets. 

The Glisten Fleet is waiting to slag the Swordies and their Forinian
allies. 

> Vargr forces will raid the Coreward ends of Regina and Aramis to draw off fleet
> elements from those subsectors.  Raiders and deep penetration fleets will
> be sent into Regina and Villis for commerce and raiding and hit&run attacks
> against starports capable of repairing navy ships.
> 
> My main thrust will come at Louzy/Jewell and Grant/Jewell.  Cutting off the
> Jewell cluster.  Louzy has no gas giant, and Grant only two, making these
> systems easy to hold.
> 
> With the door barred, and my penetrators wrecking havoc, I move on the
> Jewell cluster itself.  Ruby (1005), Emerald (1006), and Mongo (1204) are
> the first targets. All are relatively low tech, and only Mongo has a Naval
> base.  From there, I send more forces to Lysen (1307).  Lysen doesn't have
> enough people or technology to put up a stiff resitience.  These moves
> would be on a timed basis, with fleets moving according to schedule.
> 
> Once everyhing was secure, I'd move the bulk of my fleets to Jewell (1106)
> along with the invasion force.  Jewell would be a tough nut to crack
> 
> (Divergence, I just had the most amazing case of deja-vu.  I clearly
> remembered typing that exact sentiece before, on this computer.  Weird)
> 
> With you reacting to my previous moves, I have you out of position.  I can
> begin the bombardment of targets on the planet with minimal interference.
> I would send troops down *as quickly as is possible* because in orbit, they
> are targets.  On the ground, they are an asset.  My forces at the other
> worlds have couriers stationed with them; ordered to jump out *the moment*
> a large Imperial force engages my force.  This will give me at least a
> little warning.
> 
> Obviously, there are holes in this attack, since I just came up with it.
> The biggest hole I see is a fleet coming through the Federation of Arden on
> my Rimward flank.  Placing pickets at Zircon (1110), Utoland (1209), Pequan
> (1210), and 871-438 (1510) would give me warning, although I am probably
> short on ships at this point.  Just have to hope that the raiders and
> Swordies are doing their job.
> 
> There, a clear plan with goals.  That's what the Imperial player would also
> need.  There is never a time when allowing massive friendly civilian
> casualties is acceptable.
> --
> 
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 23:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shadowcat)
Date: Sat Aug  3 22:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
In-Reply-To: <200208040317.MAB01365@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D4C6254.25855.23272CD@localhost>

(Doug says, 'Who is Richard Tucholka?' )

Stalking the Night Fantastic, Fringeworthy, FTL 2448


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 23:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 22:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] missiles
Message-ID: <74.20c8274f.2a7e1200@aol.com>

 >It [MT] states that a 100 ton bay used as a magazine can hold
 >13500 missiles, but not launch them,

If the bay was tightly packed with missiles that would indicate that each 
missile container is 10 inches square and less than 5 feet tall.  Such 
missiles will be transported over long distances and subject to much shock 
during transport, and may sit in their canisters for years, so the canister 
will be heavily padded and sealed to provide a long shelf-life and to reduce 
the chance of sympathetic explosions.  Is 10 inches by 5 feet of padded 
cannister really big enough to hold a spacegoing missile?

CT HG2 says zero about it, so I just decided that some of a 50 ton or 100 ton 
missile bay was filled with guidance equipment and gunner positions, with the 
rest of the bay occupied by preloaded sealed cannisters containing each 
salvo.  The gunners initiate launch, the cannister pops open and out go 30 
missiles.  I chose 30 because it seemed to me that a bay would gain better 
use of its missiles than a turret battery because it had better guidance 
equipment rather than simply because it used more missiles, and that made 
sense because missile batteries have to bear before they can shoot.  Having 
each salvo in its own cannister also would make it easy to transport, load, 
unload, and mix-and-match.

 >Not that they've ever fired all 50 b/r's. I think the most
 >they ever used in one engagement is 6 b/r's.

You never can have too many missiles.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 23:15:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug  3 22:15:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
In-Reply-To: <3D4C6254.25855.23272CD@localhost>
Message-ID: <B9720629.67BC4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/3/02 9:08 PM, Shadowcat at res053z0@gten.net wrote:

> (Doug says, 'Who is Richard Tucholka?' )
> 
> Stalking the Night Fantastic, Fringeworthy, FTL 2448
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

Hey, I still have my copy of FTL 2448 somewhere.  Fringeworthy too.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 23:16:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 22:16:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for the Atro-genius Types (was: System Gen
 Help)
In-Reply-To: <20020803210827.89257.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <c9.261a11c4.2a7d38e2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803175336.3b4f0dc8@pop.mindspring.com>

At 02:08 PM 8/3/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>Would it be possible for a planet be captured into an
>L4 or L5 point on a Gas Giant?

Anything is *possible*, but it would be a one in a billion shot.

1. The developing mass of the gas giant will disrupt planetary formation,
so it would need to be a captured world.

2. It would have to enter the system on the *exact* right course at a
precise time at the right speed.

3. The planet would need to enter on the plane of the rest of the system,
and not encounter anything else.

This is incredibly unlikely. Even if it has happened, it's most likely to
be around an outer gas giant and be a fairly small world.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 23:17:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 22:17:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <73.238e61b4.2a7db467@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803180658.3b4f38f8@pop.mindspring.com>

At 06:34 PM 8/3/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>Fully capable men 40 years of age are also barred from enlistment.
There's >a reason.

Yep.  It's called age.  There are definite changes in people between 18 and
40.  Soliders are best when trained as young men.  Or women.

> >Of course, the poor dears can't be expected to understand politics, manage
> >an estate or run a business either. Any you know? they couldn't do it. Not
> >until someone let them try.
>
>They are trying it.  And it's causing far more damage than good.

Wow, you are making a bid for greatness!  You will be in the halls with
such greats as Clif and Leroy.

ObTrav: Worlds with wildly different views on gender roles.  Hit the
players with a world where men are second-class citizens and kept in the
house.  Or one where men and woman are equal, but never seen togehter in
polite society.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 23:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 22:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] 40-year olds
Message-ID: <7e.2b89905d.2a7e16b8@aol.com>

 >>Why does the Army do this?  Because 40 year olds, as a 
 >>whole, have sufficient problems that the Army knows it will 
 >>lose more in attempting to incorporate them than it will 
 >>gain.
 >
 >No, no, no.  The reason the Army won't enlist you is because 
 >the "useful lifetime" of the older soldier is shorter.

Well, now you are citing "the needs of the service" rather than the right to 
serve.  I think the needs of the service should be consistently foremost.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 23:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug  3 22:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] 40-year olds
In-Reply-To: <7e.2b89905d.2a7e16b8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B9720DAD.67BE2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/3/02 10:33 PM, Flykiller@aol.com at Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>>> Why does the Army do this?  Because 40 year olds, as a
>>> whole, have sufficient problems that the Army knows it will
>>> lose more in attempting to incorporate them than it will
>>> gain.
>> 
>> No, no, no.  The reason the Army won't enlist you is because
>> the "useful lifetime" of the older soldier is shorter.
> 
> Well, now you are citing "the needs of the service" rather than the right to
> serve.  I think the needs of the service should be consistently foremost.

It should be noted that the same types of restrictions apply to other
Federal service.  For example, you cannot apply to any federal law
enforcement agency unless you will have enough years of service for
retirement by age 55.  Meaning that after age 35, your too old to be an FBI,
DEA or ATF agent.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 23:48:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 22:48:09 2002
Subject: [TML] missiles
References: <74.20c8274f.2a7e1200@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4CBFD6.E47799B2@mindspring.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> 
>  >It [MT] states that a 100 ton bay used as a magazine can hold
>  >13500 missiles, but not launch them,
> 
> If the bay was tightly packed with missiles that would indicate that each
> missile container is 10 inches square and less than 5 feet tall.  Such
> missiles will be transported over long distances and subject to much shock
> during transport, and may sit in their canisters for years, so the canister
> will be heavily padded and sealed to provide a long shelf-life and to reduce
> the chance of sympathetic explosions.  Is 10 inches by 5 feet of padded
> cannister really big enough to hold a spacegoing missile?

I have slightly different figures but it could be conversion errors. In
MT and IMMTU it is. They only accelerate for 40 or so minutes. Can't do
it in the here and now, but we're talking about an internally consistent
game set in the far future.
 
> CT HG2 says zero about it, so I just decided that some of a 50 ton or 100 ton
> missile bay was filled with guidance equipment and gunner positions, with the
> rest of the bay occupied by preloaded sealed cannisters containing each
> salvo.  The gunners initiate launch, the cannister pops open and out go 30
> missiles.  I chose 30 because it seemed to me that a bay would gain better
> use of its missiles than a turret battery because it had better guidance
> equipment rather than simply because it used more missiles, and that made
> sense because missile batteries have to bear before they can shoot.  Having
> each salvo in its own cannister also would make it easy to transport, load,
> unload, and mix-and-match.

IMMTU those 2 b/r's in the bay are in an internal magazine capable of
handling nuclear or antimatter missiles depending on TL of the ship. The
rest of the bay is filled with targeting and guidance equipment. The
increased factor come from a combination of additional missiles and
better guidance / tracking. Gunners positions are outside the bay except
during maintenance. Additional magazine may added.

The shipping containers are somewhat bigger than 0.1 Kl, that is the
magazine requirement, I'm thinking 0.15 kl or so. 
 
Turrets, unless they have an attached magazine, must be reloaded between
shots. Pity the lone gunner on the free trader humping missiles from the
cargo bay to the turret. All the while being screamed at by the pilot,
navigator, engineer, steward and all the passengers.

>  >Not that they've ever fired all 50 b/r's. I think the most
>  >they ever used in one engagement is 6 b/r's.
> 
> You never can have too many missiles.

I quite agree.

-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was  COTI website)
In-Reply-To: <00fa01c23b49$63e1f7c0$a211bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <20020804060231.5D9A02793A@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/04/02 at 12:55 AM,  "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
said:


>> 
>> So, to those that think Martan, Loren, et al are "spamming" this group
>> I politely offer the suggestion..."Go suck eggs!"  

>Heh. If you can't announce trav content on the trav website, what's
>it for?

>That said, the "spam" reference was, I belive, tongue in cheek.

Perhaps, but spam and eggs are a breakfast treat! <g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:04:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:04:00 2002
Subject: [TML] Alternative Gender Roles in the Third Imperium
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020803180658.3b4f38f8@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <73.238e61b4.2a7db467@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020804010359.00aaa590@minn.net>

The Lord of the Penguins wrote:

>ObTrav: Worlds with wildly different views on gender roles.  Hit the
>players with a world where men are second-class citizens and kept in the
>house.  Or one where men and woman are equal, but never seen togehter in
>polite society.
>-- 
>
>Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Name one. Please.

Preferably between Regina and the Coreward boundary of the 3I. (If not,
I'll write it in as a flashback.)

[Les just woke up after sleeping through the alarm clock's buzzing for one
hour and eleven minutes (a record) thus missing Rocky Horror night at the
Riverview Theatre. Les is not a happy boy right now.]


(Hoping the drive through at the Burger Thing is still open) Les


==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <10.22d0c4c9.2a7e1fae@aol.com>

 >In other words, we're talking about two entirely different situations. I'm
 >discussing defending a hypothetical sector from equally hypothetical (but
 >real for the purposes of the exercise) interstellar fleets, and you're
 >playing High Guard.
 >
 >I don't think we can accept one another's assumptions, so the exercise is
 >pointless..

Well, I'll have to agree there.  You have intelligence information, I don't.  
My fleet is chasing ghosts, while you are concentrating accurately at will.   
 My supply lines are vulnerable, while yours are irrelevant.  You have 
tonnage enough for both a large raiding force and yet also a main fleet 
apparently equal to mine.  Your raiders and decoys advance, do their thing, 
and then fall back, and I never see them coming or going.  You insist I'm in 
a political situation that requires me to defend every last backwater in the 
name of publicity, while you have no such concerns.  And you make it sound 
like I'm defending a bunch of virgin Americans instead of a population that 
has gone through five previous wars and has survived.  You're right, I don't 
accept it.

But I'd love to play it.  You're right, I think victories are achieved 
militarily.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:15:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:15:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
In-Reply-To: <3D4C6254.25855.23272CD@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208032313260.28625-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Sat, 3 Aug 2002, Shadowcat wrote:

> (Doug says, 'Who is Richard Tucholka?' )
> 
> Stalking the Night Fantastic, Fringeworthy, FTL 2448

What's Richard doing these days?  We were sort of friends in the 80's--
knew a lot of the same folks, turned up at parties together, etc.  I think
he may have been at my first wedding.

Anyone hanging out with him, tell him Kiri Morgan says hi-- although I
think you might have to tell him I used to be Kiri Westfall!

Kiri :)

**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] realism
Message-ID: <53.1a729e8e.2a7e21cd@aol.com>

 >  I agree with you that this is a RPG and realism doesn't carry much weight 
 >really...so why not play dnd instead?

Flavor.  Heck, play both.

 >btw.......Imperial nobles IMHO can be modelled after the Catholic Church of 
 >the middle ages. 
 >The held massive amounts of power without holding the reigns of any single 
 >country. Yet no king would dare go against the Pope in those days.

The kings and their subjects believed, and a Pope wields spiritual power.  
Why would an Imperial Emperor be viewed in the same way?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Check Your Landgrabs!
Message-ID: <1ad.629357b.2a7e2295@aol.com>

What is the landgrab?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Paging Martin Dougherty
References: <20020804013343.15643.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <005e01c23b82$c3ebe840$8a0fbd50@martinjd>

> Martin,
> 
> I hadn't heard from you, and was wondering if you got
> the info you had asked for.
> 
> Let me know, I can send it again if you haven't gotten
> it yet.

Uhh? It Morning. Me Brain-Slow. Remind What Information? 
Me Find Breakfast Cereal Now. Kill And Eat Cereal. Cereal Good. 




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:38:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:38:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Paging Martin Dougherty
References: <20020804013343.15643.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <008101c23b82$ff35d320$8a0fbd50@martinjd>

> Martin,
>
> I hadn't heard from you, and was wondering if you got
> the info you had asked for.
>
> Let me know, I can send it again if you haven't gotten
> it yet.

Uhh? It Morning. Me Brain-Slow. Remind What Information?
Me Find Breakfast Cereal Now. Kill And Eat Cereal. Cereal Good.

(I lost ALL my archived email recently, so there's a few loose ends I'm not
even aware of. Is this in reference to the bioweapon stuff, or something
else?)







From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <18c.bd4c936.2a7e26e9@aol.com>

 >>Ah, a general overall fleet attack.  You describe a situation some weeks 
 >>after it has begun.  I think my scouts would give me a more accurate
 picture, 
 >>and sooner.  I will send a message to Deneb to send a fleet.
 >
 >Two months to get there at Jump-6.  Assuming an entire fleet is ready to
 >rush to your aid, 2-3 months to get it to the front.

Oh, I'm sure it wouldn't rush to the front.  That fleet commander will want a 
clear picture of what is going on as he approaches with whatever he 
approaches with.

>>that straggle back home looking for support.  Further I'll send the fleet 
>>raider task force to shoot up whatever they can in other worlds in that
>>area. 

>What are his war goals?  If it is disrupting the Imperial confidence in the
>sector, you will not be able to justify your move politically!  Remember,
>in WWII the US went on the offensive only after Midway.

Well, his goals will be to disrupt general shipping, of course.

 >> Two can play this game, only I'll do it with concentrated task forces.  
Let 
 >>the consule at Cronor yell at _his_ commander:  "There are a thousand 
 >>frigates at Querion!  Do something!"
 >
 >Meanwhile there are a hundred ships at Jewell, Efate, Pixie.. destroying
 >naval bases and advanced starports.

If he gets them in without me seeing them coming.  Why does everyone assume 
I'm blind and he sees all?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <ca.f8487da.2a7e2802@aol.com>

 >Cool.  And in the same time, you have the Zhos coming from everywhere (the
 >Consulate is much smaller, y'know) and the Zho's destroying the ares you
 >were supposed to be defending!  If you are lucky, you'll be killed in
 >battle, and won't be hung for gross incompetence.
 >
 >Mission is everything.  If you have been attacked, your first duty as an
 >Imperial officer is to defend the state.  Taking the war to the enemy's
 >home is a political decision.

It seems I am to be the passive blind recipient of whatever comes my way, 
while my opponent is free to act with clear vision.  You're right.  I'd lose.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <a.22f0514d.2a7e28ce@aol.com>

 >> >You're thniking of everything in terms of a mapboard and counters. I'm
 >> >discussing warfare.
 >>
 >>I'm thinking in terms of what the actually constructed vessels will do 
 >>according to the rules, yes.  You are thinking in terms of imagining what
 you 
 >>think various effects will be.  I'll take the hardware -- such as it is -- 
 >>and I'll have the last word.
 >
 >You are really setting records for honking people off here, you know that?

That was offensive?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 01:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Sun Aug  4 00:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] 40-year olds
In-Reply-To: <200208031505.LZD01427@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <003e01c23c23$c7b6c0c0$1001a8c0@sauron>

John T. Kwon wrote :
> Flykiller says
> >Why does the Army do this?  Because 40 year olds, as a 
> >whole, have sufficient problems that the Army knows it will 
> >lose more in attempting to incorporate them than it will 
> >gain.
> 
> No, no, no.  The reason the Army won't enlist you is because 
> the "useful lifetime" of the older soldier is shorter.  Not 
> because you can't pass the PT test.  
> 
> Training is an expense - and once they spend the money, 
> they expect a useful time period after that, including 
> reserve time.

And in fact, the military is known to waive this rule if 
you are already trained. My father was offered enlistment 
and the automatic rank (in that if he accpted the job, he 
got the rank) of Flight Lieutenant when he was 38, because 
at the time the Air Force needed experienced and trained 
civil engineers _now_, rather than in six years when they 
had trained some. 

> Most Delta Force soldiers are between the ages of 35 and 40.  
> The Army does not have a problem with age as it pertains to 
> performance.

Anyone who harbours any misapprehensions about the combat 
effectiveness of people over forty, needs to go and look 
at the accomplishments of Choyun Miyagi. 

I believe this may have the been the person who 
"The Karate Kid"'s mentor, Mr. Miyagi, was modelled on. 

Or how about the European 747 pilot who qualfied as a "samurai" 
shortly after his 40th birthday? (The newspaper report said 
"samurai", what I think they meant was he was the first European 
to be granted the top rank in kenjutsu.)
  
And then there were the first US astronauts....

If you want both fitness _and_ lots of combat experience, you have 
to get people who over 35. Anyone younger, unless they were born 
to the PLO or something similar, just doesn't have the experience. 

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 01:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 00:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
Message-ID: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>

 >But anyway... let's put this interesting debate to bed...

Concur.  Please ignore any further posts I've made on this.

And thanks.  I've been dying for years to talk to someone about this.  It was 
great.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 01:20:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 00:20:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
 traveller)
Message-ID: <880f68582e.8582e880f6@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Date: Saturday, August 3, 2002 8:57 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in 
traveller)

<<snip>>
> 
> While there is likely a connection between PTSD and rapid 
> reintegration back
> into 'normal' life, experts have also linked PSTD to the extensive 
> use of
> operant conditioning of soldiers that occurred after WWII.
> 
> What provisions does the Imperium make for combat veterans 
> returning to
> civilian life?  Are long voyages home sufficient?

<tongue-in-cheek>

Well, considering how many Trav characters end up with Gun and/or Blade 
as mustering-out benefits, the 3I military doesn't seem to have a major 
problem with PTSD sufferers going postal.... ;-)

</tongue-in-cheek>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 01:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug  4 00:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>

What I'd like to read and participate in is an analysis of fleet
composition, weapons, defensive system and tactics in GURPS Traveller,
and how they differ from other incarnations of Traveller space combat
systems.  Unfortunately I lack the necessary experience with other
Traveller space combat systems :/

From what I can see, the weapons and defensive equipment available in
GT starship design have just been translated from other Traveller
design systems without regard to how effective they actually are in
GURPS.

I presume that similar things happened between other versions of
Traveller rule sets.  Will it happen again with T20?  Will there be a
starship design and space combat supplement for that?


Do people find it desirable to explore the various consequences of
different combat models, or would they prefer to have the same model
across all incarnations of Traveller?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 01:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sun Aug  4 00:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
 traveller)
In-Reply-To: <880f68582e.8582e880f6@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020804024508.00aac9c0@minn.net>

At 10:19 AM 8/4/2002 +0300, john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:

>Well, considering how many Trav characters end up with Gun and/or Blade 
>as mustering-out benefits, the 3I military doesn't seem to have a major 
>problem with PTSD sufferers going postal.... ;-)
>
></tongue-in-cheek>

I don't recall postal workers being a problem back when the LBB's came out.

Though there was a bit of fuss being raised over Sun Set Loony and his
followers.  ;-)


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 01:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Sun Aug  4 00:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
 <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <200208040353580835.54A1D865@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 8/4/2002 at 5:34 PM Timothy Little wrote:

>I presume that similar things happened between other versions of
>Traveller rule sets.  Will it happen again with T20?  Will there be a
>starship design and space combat supplement for that?

T20 has the starship design rules (along with everything else!) in the main=
 book. They are based directly off of High Guard (v2). There are some minor=
 differences, but ships designed with either system should be readily=
 interchangable.

There are two sets of combat rules presents, a basic set that is abstract=
 and deals more with the roleplaying than mechanics, and the advance combat=
 system which is much more tactical and uses 2 'megahexes' to plot long=
 range and short range tactical movement.

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 02:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 01:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: HULL THICKNESS LIMITATION
Message-ID: <200208040804.g7484Pw19092@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Flykiller@aol.com
>Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat HULL THICKNESS LIMITATION
...
> >HULL
> >185.000 tons standard, 2,590.000 cubic meters, Planetoid Configuration
>
>In a Planetoid Configuration of this size the maximum thickness of the outer 
>hull is 0.6 meters and likely much less.  If this ship were 185,000 tons, the 
>maximum outer thickness of the outer hull would be 6.0 meters.  Yet in both 
>cases they are considered to be naturally armor 3.  I think there should be a 
>lower limit on allowable tonnages for Planetoid and Buffered Planetoid ships.

  Sure, but that function also applies to armour on ships.

  See also Mr. Thrash' essay on internal structure issues for large ships.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 02:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 01:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
 <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

Hello Tim,
  The missile damage rules in GURPS TRAVELLER make missile craft that much
  more deadly than they were in any other TRAVELLER incarnation.  I
  personally do not use the GURPS STARSHIP combat rules as presented, nor
  am I pleased with rendition of the Meson weapons in the GURPS TRAVELLER
  rule set.  Having said that however, I would be pleased to discuss the
  topic matter you proposed...

            Hal



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 02:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Aug  4 01:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020803180658.3b4f38f8@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <3.0.5.16.20020803180658.3b4f38f8@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m3lm7njaot.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes:

> At 06:34 PM 8/3/2002 EDT, you wrote:
> 
> > Fully capable men 40 years of age are also barred from enlistment.
> > There's a reason.
> 
> Yep.  It's called age.  There are definite changes in people between
> 18 and 40.  Soliders are best when trained as young men.  Or women.

When I visited the Naval Academy at the end of my brother's plebe
summer, I recall a certain amount of puzzlement when watching the
plebes parading by.  A portion of them were smaller than my 11 yr. old
brother, and skinnier too (a fair accomplishment, that).  I recall
thinking to myself that I though only 17+ yr. olds were allowed in.
Then I took a closer look.  Every one of those `boys' was a girl.

In fairness, at the parade at the end of his midshipman career the
differences were not quite so pronounced.

> ObTrav: Worlds with wildly different views on gender roles.  Hit the
> players with a world where men are second-class citizens and kept in
> the house.

I believe that at least one of those already exists...

> Or one where men and woman are equal, but never seen togehter in
> polite society.

That'd be odd.  What's the mechanism?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
But it's more than that, of course; bad spelling just isn't respectable.
You may, perhaps, want to lament this fact.  You are free to do so.  The
fact remains.                                            --John Mitchell

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 02:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Sun Aug  4 01:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was  COTI website)
In-Reply-To: <20020804060231.5D9A02793A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPGEAHEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Was that spam and eggs
or spam, spam egs and spam?

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Eris Reddoch
Sent: Sunday, 4 August 2002 2:03 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was COTI website)


On 08/04/02 at 12:55 AM,  "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
said:


>> 
>> So, to those that think Martan, Loren, et al are "spamming" this group
>> I politely offer the suggestion..."Go suck eggs!"  

>Heh. If you can't announce trav content on the trav website, what's
>it for?

>That said, the "spam" reference was, I belive, tongue in cheek.

Perhaps, but spam and eggs are a breakfast treat! <g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 02:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Sun Aug  4 01:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPGEAHEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPGEAHEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
Message-ID: <200208040445160020.54D0CCA6@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 8/4/2002 at 4:21 PM Antony Farrell wrote:

>Was that spam and eggs
>or spam, spam egs and spam?

Ok gotta keep it on topic!

Pardons if this has actually been covered previously.

So does SPAM survive the Rule of Man, the Long Night and into the Third=
 Imperium? If so, is it just a Solomani thing, or have the Vilani and=
 others come to enjoy this uniquely Terran... ummm .... stuff? I'm just=
 picturing a group of adventurers finding an old Rule of Man cache,=
 stockpiled with cans of good old SPAM!

Inquiring minds want to know!

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 02:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Sun Aug  4 01:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <20020803203103.12400.34750.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentr
 al.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804013527.009f91d0@mailhost.efn.org>

>The program was successful.  The number of troops firing in combat went from
>10-30% to over 90%.  Many psychiatrists and others in the field have
>suggested that this operant conditioning may have had deleterious effects in
>that it short circuits the natural human reluctance to kill.

Which was, of course, precisely the intended result.  The real trick is 
turning that reflex back ON again after you've deliberately broken 
it.  This is a little harder than beating a sword back into a plowshare; 
more like unscrambling an egg.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 03:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 02:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <25.2b8bf94f.2a7e4e43@aol.com>

In a message dated 04/08/02 09:24:19 GMT Daylight Time, ruhl@4dv.net writes:


> Or one where men and woman are equal, but never seen togehter in
> polite society.

That'd be odd.  What's the mechanism?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

One option is visible fertility - humans are unusual in that we don't know 
when women are in oestrus. In a society where that didn't exist there is 
likely to be tight social control over gender interaction.

You might see harem based families (K'Kree) or you might see a society where 
males and females have parrallel societies with extremely ritualised methods 
of interaction, particularly if women tend to become fertile at around the 
same time.

One interesting possibilty is Vagr society where it would be obvious to every 
male within quite a distance that the high ranking, young female en route to 
take part in a political wedding and placed in the care of the PCs by her 
doting (if somewhat inflexible, powerful and violent father) has just come 
"on heat" for the first time...

Do male Aslan mark their territory?

"Elmer that danged tomcat's peeing on the airlock again! Go own scat, shoo - 
you pee on it you pay for it!"

Charles

I addressed some cheerful chit-chat at the man opposite but was rewarded with 
grunt. I tried the man next to me but he just looked at the gentleman I had 
tried first and said "Do you know what he's talking about?" At this point I 
realised I was getting out my depth but the Dean stepped in and saved me, "Oh 
don't worry about it" he said, "They're mathematicians - we never talk to 
them."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 05:12:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 04:12:10 2002
Subject: [TML] 40-year olds
Message-ID: <memo.591614@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <003e01c23c23$c7b6c0c0$1001a8c0@sauron>
> And in fact, the military is known to waive this rule if 
> you are already trained. My father was offered enlistment 
> and the automatic rank (in that if he accpted the job, he 
> got the rank) of Flight Lieutenant when he was 38, because 
> at the time the Air Force needed experienced and trained 
> civil engineers _now_, rather than in six years when they 
> had trained some. 

I was invited back once, to a Reservist unit, at age 40, living the other 
end of the country to their base, and with responsibility for a small 
child. I had skills they were after...

... didn't work out in the end, but I had fun visiting them :-)

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 05:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 04:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <20020804054809.26103.98485.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17bJb8-0007Wi-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

> In mail you write:
> 
> > Time-Travel is a huge no-no. Do I have something against it? Yes and
> > no. It's entertaining and fascinating to speculate on, but it would
> > seriously unbalance a campaign. I also like the idea that
> > consequences of one's actions are irreversable...Time Travel far too
> > often gives one an out to correct mistakes.
> 
> Well, the theoretical work that physicists have done on the
> possibility of time travel in the real world says that two things will
> be true if it's possible:
> 
> 1. You can't travel back before the instant the machione is first
>    activated.
> 
> 2. You can't alter the past. You'd have free will to the exact extent
>    that you *don't* know what happened. 

Actually, from what I've read, those are only true *if* causality is 
always preserved.  If it is possible to utterly toss causality out the 
window, then time travel can involve whatever you want.  It's 
interesting to me that preservation of causality seems something 
almost all phyicists assume to be true w/o having any absolute 
necessity that the world actually operates this way.  We haven't 
seen any obvious causality violations, but until last century we also 
never saw any obvious relativistic effects.  Personally, I think the 
universe would be a considerably more interesting (in all possible 
meanings of this word) place is causality is not strictly preserved.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 05:34:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sun Aug  4 04:34:05 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
References: <ca.f8487da.2a7e2802@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4D10E8.FE3A4CDB@mindspring.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> 
>  >Cool.  And in the same time, you have the Zhos coming from everywhere (the
>  >Consulate is much smaller, y'know) and the Zho's destroying the ares you
>  >were supposed to be defending!  If you are lucky, you'll be killed in
>  >battle, and won't be hung for gross incompetence.
>  >
>  >Mission is everything.  If you have been attacked, your first duty as an
>  >Imperial officer is to defend the state.  Taking the war to the enemy's
>  >home is a political decision.
> 
> It seems I am to be the passive blind recipient of whatever comes my way,
> while my opponent is free to act with clear vision.  You're right.  I'd lose.
> 

Damn mind rapers! Lets kill some Joies!


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 06:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Aug  4 05:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <memo.561259@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3D4DC34C.24200.5FD4B2@localhost>

On 2 Aug 2002 at 23:54, Megan Robertson wrote:

> In-Reply-To: <02Aug2.151432pdt.119054@gw.city.vancouver.bc.ca>
> > > On Fri, 2 Aug 2002 Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> > 
> > <SNIP>
> > 
> > > I've been trying to decide whether or not to killfile you for a 
> > > while--
> > > thanks for helping me out.
> > 
> >  Moi aussi.
> 
> I am laughing too hard to issue the requisite command.
> 
> Mexal.
> former infantry sergeant of the female persuasion.

Somehow I don't think this idea will get very far over here. About 1-in-
6 (IIRC) of our military personnel are female, and there are now no 
positions that they are prohibited from entering (Ops Diver and SAS 
being opened to female personnel about a year ago). Moving females back 
into separate support organisations would utterly cripple what little 
military we still have.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 06:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Aug  4 05:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <40.21b2d6f0.2a7cfea7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4DC641.25712.6B6046@localhost>

On 3 Aug 2002 at 5:38, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>  >And I daresay that if we have women serving in full combat capacity
>  >under the regimes of either seperate standards (i.e. where they must
>  >not meet the same standards as men) or reduced standards (e.g. I
>  >understand that two-man stretcher teams are now four or more), we will
>  >see plenty of human beings who die miserably because their comrades
>  >are not up to the task.
> 
> Actually, I'll bet we won't.  The military is talking now about how much 
> future warfare will be on the level of special ops, utilizing local troops 
> and only sending in special forces to coordinate bomb strikes, like in 
> Afghanistan.
> 
> Army?  What army?

I'll believe that when I see it. This sort of talking has always turned 
out to be wishful thinking in the past, and I see no reason why it 
isn't now. It's all very well while you're thrashing low-tech thrid-
worlders, but sooner or later there'll be another first-world vs first-
world scrap, and spec ops teams relying on vast amounts of support just 
won't cut it.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 06:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Strain)
Date: Sun Aug  4 05:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020804113405.2614.19201.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001001c23bb4$101d4160$92aa5940@dixienet.com>

MISSION: Get EVERYBODY on the list.
METHOD  act in a resonably manner, be polite, but challenge EVERYTHING they
say in response to your comments.
Call them idiots - in a polite manner of course. Act as if YOUR word is
God's and thier's at best ravings.


My take:  POINTLESS -- Why pointless? Because you set out to waste bandwith
with false agruements!

This was the FIRST  'agreement" made in one complete week.
************
>I don't think we can accept one another's assumptions, so the exercise is
 >pointless..
From: Flykiller@aol.com
Well, I'll have to agree there.

*************
From: Flykiller@aol.com ate: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 02:11:58 EDT
>In other words, we're talking about two entirely different situations.
(SNIPPED OUT) ...ercise) interstellar fleets, and you're >laying High Guard.
I don't think we can accept one another's assumptions, so the exercise is
pointless..

Well, I'll have to agree there.  You have intelligence information, I don't.
(SNIPPED OUT)    like I'm defending a bunch of virgin Americans instead of a
population that
has gone through five previous wars and has survived.  You're right, I don't
accept it.

But I'd love to play it.  You're right, I think victories are achieved
militarily.

CONCLUSION:  guy wanted to argue, no play a game - but starting fights IS
his game.

SETup.... THIS IS SIMULATION ONLY NOT A LIVE EXERCISE

FFW map.. place all units as described on map according  to fleet doctrine
using ALL FFW RULES.

Opposite side SETSUP on DIFFERENT map. Opponents TRY to find out "what's
there" using ships moving one jump per week

ONLY the Master sees BOTH fleet positions - EVER. Opponents find out by
ships finding each other. Politial rules prevent FLEETS ( 5 ships per
group ) from crossing borders with declarations of war made.

Think you can handle that? If not SHUT UP!! John Strain


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 06:38:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Sun Aug  4 05:38:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for the Atro-genius Types (was: System Gen
 Help)
In-Reply-To: <20020804054809.26103.98485.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentr
 al.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020804141737.00ac52f0@mail.pi.se>

Mr.Berry wrote:

> >Would it be possible for a planet be captured into an
> >L4 or L5 point on a Gas Giant?
>
>Anything is *possible*, but it would be a one in a billion shot.
>
>1. The developing mass of the gas giant will disrupt planetary formation,
>so it would need to be a captured world.
>
>2. It would have to enter the system on the *exact* right course at a
>precise time at the right speed.
>
>3. The planet would need to enter on the plane of the rest of the system,
>and not encounter anything else.
>
>This is incredibly unlikely. Even if it has happened, it's most likely to
>be around an outer gas giant and be a fairly small world.

I'm not so sure - I'm not an astrophysicist - but this depends on 
definitions. If the world comes from some other system I'd agree it is very 
unlikely.

But if the world is captured from a different orbit in the same solar 
system, possibly because of orbital migration, this may be a not too 
uncommon occurrence. The possibility of having gas giants in such 
resonances is investigated in this interesting arXiv preprint by Gregory 
Laughlin and John Chambers titled "Extrasolar Trojans: The Viability and 
Detectability of planets in the 1:1 Resonance"

  http://arXiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0204091

Maybe it would be courteous to provide some sort of description of such 
links to the people on a mailing list not having time to check  all links 
up, I'll recycle a brief recap I myself did somewhere else. If you are not 
interested in planet generation, skip to the next message as this gets 
long-ish.

Laughlin/Chambers think there is a possibility for large planets to be in a 
1:1
resonance. That is, one planet makes one orbit while the other makes one.
We have examples of such resonance among moons around Saturn, and among
Jupiter's large bunch of Trojan asteroids. If we had a space station in
LG-4 or LG-5 it would be in 1:1 resonance with the Moon, and so on.
LG-points are only stable for certain masses. You do not have such around
Pluto/Charon or around most binary stars. However, that is only one type of
1:1 orbit resonance possible - Saturn's moons give more examples of moons
"switching" orbits and such.

What L/C does is identify three types of 1:1 resonances stable for a solar
system lifetime. The first one is a situation where the planets and the
star form an equidistant triangle, or if you so like, one planet is in the
other planet-sun system's LG-4 point. This situation would be stable for
planets where the combined mass is less than 0.03812 of the primary (so it
would work on Jupiter-size worlds), the planets would oscillate in
tadpole-like orbits but in principle they would stay. However, if the
planets were disturbed out of this stability, it is possible to have
another kind of resonance.

In this second type, the planets involved are of roughly equal size move
around in their orbit it about 180 degree separation (one planet on each
side of the star). This is also a stable situation, though there is a bit
of oscillation. In this case, the planets cannot be as massive. For a
sun-type star, the limit is about 0.4 Jupiter masses, so Saturn-size gas
giants could be stable. (This is an example of horseshoe orbits)

The third and more odd type is where two planets have different orbits and
by interaction at exchange orbits, so to speak. Imagine having one planet
with low eccentricity and one with high eccentricity. These worlds would on
the order of tens to hundreds of orbits (shorter for heavier planets) cause
the other world to get gradually more or less eccentricity by exchanging
angular momentum. This situation could be stable for planetary masses up to
about 0.035 of the primary.

The first two examples of 1:1 resonance may be rather common, or so the
authors think. It is possible for planets slightly smaller than Jupiter
that it is possible to form a secondary planet core in the Trojan point, as
lower-mass gas giants do not "clear out" the disc as efficiently. Another
possibility is that the proto-planets collide and create a double core, and
as this double planet migrate inward* in the early solar system the
stability radii decrease, and the planet-planet orbit is instable and the
worlds end up in the first type of resonance, which can be further
disturbed out to the second one. (Or vice versa)

The third type is bound to be more rare, but it could happen in a situation
where three larger planets interact. One is ejected and the remaining two
form a 1:1 angular momentum resonance. One could imagine the odd climate
shift a stable moon around such a gas giant would experience when over a
800-year span the eccentricity changes drastically.

*Another paper suggests the chances are very high jovian worlds migrate
from where they are formed. Either inward or outward. Possibly our Jupiter
represents a minority which formed at the right time to stay just outside
the snow line, and is among the 10-15% of planetary systems having such
jovians. Side note: planets in 1:1 resonance would likely keep the
resonance when in orbital migration.

Enough said.

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 06:39:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Aug  4 05:39:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <memo.572870@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3D4DC91F.22100.769295@localhost>

On 3 Aug 2002 at 13:13, Megan Robertson wrote:

> Mexal (not sniper-trained - in the British Army they only accept right 
> handers... Grrr.)

Ah. That was never a factor in my case - I pissed off the wrong officer 
shortly before the paper-work was to be passed along. :(

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 07:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug  4 06:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
Message-ID: <200208041300.MAV01414@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Azalais Malfoy asks
>What's Richard doing these days?  

He's got a website up - 
http://users.twave.net/b13/
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 07:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sun Aug  4 06:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020804113405.2614.19201.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <001001c23bb4$101d4160$92aa5940@dixienet.com>
Message-ID: <003601c23bb9$68924480$0616bd50@martinjd>

>
> ONLY the Master sees BOTH fleet positions - EVER. Opponents find out by
> ships finding each other. Politial rules prevent FLEETS ( 5 ships per
> group ) from crossing borders with declarations of war made.


We did this in a Napoleonic context. What frustration! Corps commanders were
players, as was army commander (me). Just getting them to send meaningful
information back to me was well-nigh impossible.

At one point, I sent the fifth repetition of an order to attack to my
cavalry corps commander (I could see him from my command position). The
order? "Enemy infantry and guns deploying to your front. Attack them.
Charge! Charge! Charge them NOW! Attack them immediately!. Confirm receipt."
(I was getting cranky)

The confirmation came back "Cannot attack. My cuirassiers are in front of my
lancers. Must redeploy for maximum effectivenesss." (He'd been fiddling with
his deployments for 3 hours game-time and was now under artillery fire)

My final order: "To: General XXXX (Cuirassier division commander, NPC).
Arrest or shoot your corps commander, and attack enemy to your front.
Immediate. Deliver via Corps HQ."

Well, it got him moving.

But seriously, the comm delay and limited intelligence turned a wargame into
a nightmare. A system of courier simulation and player-subordinates who
won't necesssarily obey orders helps too...








From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 07:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun Aug  4 06:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was COTI website)
Message-ID: <F202T3kMUVfNIJWNDIT00000440@hotmail.com>

From: "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>

     "IMO, I don't mind occasional reminders of "what you've got" and where 
it is, I don't mind announcements when you've got something new and 
exciting, I don't mind you asking us for our input on things, and I
don't mind you giving us your input on things. In fact, I appreciate it, and 
hope you keep it up!"


Mr. Reddoch,

     You are, of course, correct sir.
     My lame attempt at humor backfired and was in poor taste.  Yet another 
Whipsnadian faux pas inflicted on the List. (sigh)
     Mea culpa.

     "So, to those that think Martin, Loren, et. al. are "spamming" this 
group I politely offer the suggestion..."Go suck eggs!"

     I've already bought a dozen, will that be enough?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 07:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Scott Ayres)
Date: Sun Aug  4 06:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Movies
In-Reply-To: <102.1921e4ba.2a7dede0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020804135041.73249.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com>

re: GETTYSBURG movie...
  The same crew is putting together at least 2 more
movies in the same vein as GETTYSBURG - based on
original author's son's works.  Not sure if they're
for theater or TV release. Possible '03 release?

re: Movie historical (and book) accuracy
  I hang out with several military history types
(professors and non-profs).  There's a few complaints
with GETTYSBURG's (and others') historical accuracy or
getting the wrong people in the wrong roles.  Some 
can't stand Short's accent, Berringer's false beard,
or this aspect or that.  I enjoyed the movie
regardless.  _Something_ is better than nothing.
  Case in point: PEARL HARBOR.  I took my kids.  They
liked it, I shuddered.  But at a recent 13th b-day
party for my daughter, her friends _wanted_ to see it.
 Who'd of thought that five 13-yr girls would want to
see a "war" movie?  My kids (10 to 16'ish) attend some
of the finest public schools in my state or the
nation, yet have trouble remembering who was who (and
why) in what war.  I am amazed how much of what I grew
up with and thought "important" is now so much chaff
(WW2 was vs. the Axis _not_ the VC, etc.)

  So how does this relate to Traveller?  A recent
thread concerned the movie & book for STARSHIP
TROOPERS.  ST is surely food for the inaccuracy of
book to movie topic, yet it does generate interest in
the genre.  Flipping through the channels a couple
weeks and it was on cable...  I watched the portion
where the troop ship was falling apart after receiving
fire from the planet.  I'd never noticed the external
scenes to the degree I did before: individual people
were falling out (away) of the ship as it ripped
apart.  Don't remember ever seeing that in a movie
before.  I also noticed the proximity of ships to each
other.  I know it's "Hollywood" and _this_ movie,
but... 

OT: has anyone ever concerned the proximity of ships
to each other in close orbit and planetary
bombardment?  How close is too close?  Does a fleet
turn the night sky bright with the multitude of
invading ships?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 08:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 07:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <200208040353580835.54A1D865@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
References: <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
 <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804100230.026b7e58@192.168.0.1>

At 03:53 AM 8/4/2002 -0400, Hunter Gordon wrote:
>On 8/4/2002 at 5:34 PM Timothy Little wrote:
> >I presume that similar things happened between other versions of
> >Traveller rule sets.  Will it happen again with T20?  Will there be a
> >starship design and space combat supplement for that?
>T20 has the starship design rules (along with everything else!) in the 
>main book. They are based directly off of High Guard (v2). There are some 
>minor differences, but ships designed with either system should be readily 
>interchangable.
>There are two sets of combat rules presents, a basic set that is abstract 
>and deals more with the roleplaying than mechanics, and the advance combat 
>system which is much more tactical and uses 2 'megahexes' to plot long 
>range and short range tactical movement.

I'll knock off a couple of ship designs for review by the list when I get 
my copy.
Until then, I have two nice new canes from CaneMasters to keep me amused.
Ok, one's for my dad, but I gotta do some quality check on it first...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Blend 'B', meanwhile, is a PROUD blend, defiant yet petulant...a blend
that grabs you, shakes you by the collar and cries, 'ACCEPT me, damn you,
or turn me away-BUT FOR GOD'S SAKE DON'T POLLUTE ME WITH NON-DAIRY
CREAMER!'" - Tripp Biscuit while coffee tasting.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 09:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 08:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: 40-year-olds
Message-ID: <194.ae860e2.2a7e9fc4@aol.com>

After GDW went OOB, but before the SJ Games offer came up, I tried to get a 
job outside of gaming (technical writing, etc.). Nobody (NOBODY) was much 
interested in hiring me, and a couple of people (one at the employment 
office, one at a job fair I attended) said that "at your age" absent an MBA 
or a really advanced degree in something in demand at the moment, I had 
little hopes of a job where I wasn't asking "You want fries with that?" or 
mopping floors.

I tried getting work outsid of gaming -- nobody wants you if you're 40+. The 
military is not unusual in this regard.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 09:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Rutherford)
Date: Sun Aug  4 08:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: 40-year-olds
In-Reply-To: <194.ae860e2.2a7e9fc4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804112452.012467a8@mail.comcast.net>

At 11:18 AM 8/4/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>After GDW went OOB, but before the SJ Games offer came up, I tried to get a
>job outside of gaming (technical writing, etc.). Nobody (NOBODY) was much
>interested in hiring me, and a couple of people (one at the employment
>office, one at a job fair I attended) said that "at your age" absent an MBA
>or a really advanced degree in something in demand at the moment, I had
>little hopes of a job where I wasn't asking "You want fries with that?" or
>mopping floors.
>
>I tried getting work outsid of gaming -- nobody wants you if you're 40+. The
>military is not unusual in this regard.

It's just as well for the rest of us that you were "forced" retain a job 
*in*side gaming!


Bill Rutherford
worj@comcast.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 10:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 09:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was COTI website)
In-Reply-To: <F202T3kMUVfNIJWNDIT00000440@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804120536.025855a0@192.168.0.1>

At 01:16 PM 8/4/2002 +0000, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
[snip]
>     I've already bought a dozen, will that be enough?

I'd say that the humble apology was enough.
Mr. Whipsnade should watch his cholesterol.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ferret: Chaos with fur, claws and an odd smell.
          http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 10:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Sun Aug  4 09:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Taxes
In-Reply-To: <85.1f38e034.2a7d1f78@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000501c23bd4$ab74f6b0$6501a8c0@Darla>

IMTU the Imperium gets at 10% tariff on the value of all goods shipped
interstellar, plus 10% of the fares charged for interstellar passage.
The Imperium does not levy any direct taxes on individuals.

Payments from planetary governments to the Imperium vary widely, and are
always on a case-by-case basis for each world, codified in the treaty by
which the planet joined (i.e. recognized the authority of) the Imperium
and/or the feudal contract between the planet's ruling noble and the
Emperor.

TWB

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com [mailto:tml-
> admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Flykiller@aol.com
> Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 6:59 AM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Taxes
> 
>  >TCS says its a head count
> 
> Actually, it doesn't.  It says "... ; Cr500 is the amount of naval tax
> paid
> by the average citizen ; ..."
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 10:34:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Sun Aug  4 09:34:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Pilots of the Future (was: warship optimization)
In-Reply-To: <002e01c23ad4$cbcbbd00$1d17bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <000601c23bd4$abfd1270$6501a8c0@Darla>

> 
> Main problem with drones is the ECM/ECCM/Jamming seesaw.
> 
> And control lags over combat distances in space, OC.
> 

That may be true of drones, but unmanned combat aircraft will be
autonomous to a large degree.  I suspect that "video game reflexes" will
not be useful skills in operating them - mission planning will be more
important.

TWB


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
References: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPGEAHEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com> <200208040445160020.54D0CCA6@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3D4D5E9F.4000707@telocity.com>

Hunter Gordon wrote:

>On 8/4/2002 at 4:21 PM Antony Farrell wrote:
>
>>Was that spam and eggs
>>or spam, spam egs and spam?
>>
>
>Ok gotta keep it on topic!
>
>Pardons if this has actually been covered previously.
>
>So does SPAM survive the Rule of Man, the Long Night and into the Third Imperium? If so, is it just a Solomani thing, or have the Vilani and others come to enjoy this uniquely Terran... ummm .... stuff? I'm just picturing a group of adventurers finding an old Rule of Man cache, stockpiled with cans of good old SPAM!
>
>Inquiring minds want to know!
>
Wait! There's good spam, and there's old spam, but there just *ain't* no 
good old spam! <g>

And yes, canned spiced ham has survived  IMTU, at least....along with 
canned hash, canned tuna, canned groat, ad nausium...<g>

Eris


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was COTI website)
References: <F202T3kMUVfNIJWNDIT00000440@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D4D5FBB.9000503@telocity.com>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

> From: "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>
>
>     "IMO, I don't mind occasional reminders of "what you've got" and 
> where it is, I don't mind announcements when you've got something new 
> and exciting, I don't mind you asking us for our input on things, and I
> don't mind you giving us your input on things. In fact, I appreciate 
> it, and hope you keep it up!"
>
>
> Mr. Reddoch,
>
>     You are, of course, correct sir.
>     My lame attempt at humor backfired and was in poor taste.  Yet 
> another Whipsnadian faux pas inflicted on the List. (sigh)
>     Mea culpa.
>
>     "So, to those that think Martin, Loren, et. al. are "spamming" 
> this group I politely offer the suggestion..."Go suck eggs!"
>
>     I've already bought a dozen, will that be enough?
>
>
>     Sincerely,
>     Larsen
>
Why,  of course, Mr. Whipsnade!  But please don't forget the spam. As I 
said spam and eggs, a breakfast treat. <g>

Eris


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:11:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:11:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <m3y9bndi8f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEKFEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>> > That kind of setup might be cheap when it came to starship life
>> > support costs, but I imagine the impact on the soldiers' psyches
>> > would be extreme.
>>
>> Not if they were only asleep during jumps.  "Good morning, we're
>> passing through Regina and the captain decided you should all spend
>> some money there for a few days."  And soldiers won't be spending
>> years on ships anyway--they'll only be there when in transport.
>> Kind of hard to practice armored maneuvers on the mess deck.
>
>No, 'cause they'd still not get the full rest needed.  My
>greatgrandfather and grandfather took well over a month to return to
>the US after WWI & WWII; my father was back in college in 48 or so
>hours after his time in Vietnam.  Granted, that's _some_ rest time,
>but it's not nearly enough.  You don't find as much PTSD in fellows
>who got to slowly make their way back home, adjust to the new reality
>&c.; you find quite a lot in guys who are plucked up from one
>situation and dropped in another.
>

This brings up an interesting point. Does it go the other way too? Most U.S.
soldiers had a good month between the time they left CONUS and the time they
hit the lines in Europe, even during the most active time of the war. Today
soldiers in Georgia can be in a war zone in less than 48 hours. Does this
also contribute to PTSD? How does it effect their combat readiness.

ObTrav: This would not be a problem for interstellar troops, since minimum
travel time is a week. Maximum travel time could be much higher. (Which is
why I especially have a problem with GT designs which use bunkrooms.) Could
a really large troop transport incorporate a habitat module to use as a
training area? It strikes me that a holoventure module might work really
well for battledress units and vehicle drivers (tank, fighter, etc.) but
that regular troops will need more room to practice small unit tactics,
unless the holoventure studios work as good as ST holodecks.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
 <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]>

At 4:14 AM -0400 8/4/02, hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>Hello Tim,
>   The missile damage rules in GURPS TRAVELLER make missile craft that much
>   more deadly than they were in any other TRAVELLER incarnation.  I
>   personally do not use the GURPS STARSHIP combat rules as presented, nor
>   am I pleased with rendition of the Meson weapons in the GURPS TRAVELLER
>   rule set.  Having said that however, I would be pleased to discuss the
>   topic matter you proposed...

Missiles are very damaging.  However, they also can be intercepted. 
The utility of missiles depends on how many missiles you have vs how 
much point defense you foe has.  I think, in the setting, there is 
the usual game of trying to get you measures to overcome the foes 
countermeasures.  However, dropping missiles entirely, going heaving 
into point defense, and  using other weapons for a kill can be a 
viable route.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for the Atro-genius Types (was: System Gen
 Help)
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020804141737.00ac52f0@mail.pi.se>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020804141737.00ac52f0@mail.pi.se>
Message-ID: <p04330101b97312dbe956@[198.123.22.192]>

Note: you don't come in from out of the solar system and drop into an 
orbit.  To capture _any_ body from outside the solar system requires 
interactions with other bodies (otherwise the velocity you built up 
comeing in just pushes you right back out again).  If you sling shot 
around something and loose velocity, you will settle into some sort 
of orbit (barring collisions).  However, this orbit will be perturbed 
over time and generally settle into some smaller subset of stable 
orbits.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <02080313391901.00601@linux>

>  >> How serious is the trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took place
>  >> because the small island of England was not self-sufficient in either
>  >> agricultural or industrial matters, but I don't think this situation
>  >> will arise on many _planets_.  
>
>
>cough cough
	How many dinky airless rockballs with large populations do the world 
generation rules permit? 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:36:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:36:20 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
In-Reply-To: <B9701696.6773B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B9701696.6773B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <02080313573002.00601@linux>

>
> Just to bring this back to Traveller,  how do the Imperium portray it's
> adversaries?  We can probably guess that the Solomani do a bit of
> dehumanizing propaganda against their Imperial foe.  How does the Imperium
> portray the Zhodani and Solomani to it's citizenry.  And is there an
> Imperial Ministry for Propaganda?

	I seem to recall an article in the old JTAS about racial epithets for the 
5th Frontier War. It was printed at about the time of FFW release. So, yes, 
racial slurs for the buzzheads and doggies and pinkies...etc. can be 
considered canon. 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:37:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:37:34 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CF7@USCHM203>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CF7@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <02080314013103.00601@linux>

On Friday 02 August 2002 01:43 pm, you wrote:
> >The Germans, and
> >
>  >particularly the Japanese were horribly dehumanized.  We made our enemies
>  >into monsters so then it was OK to exterminate them.
>
> If there was any dehumanizing of the Germans and Japanese, they did it
> themselves through their own brutality.
> _______________________________________________
>	Project 741 tested biological warfare on helpless POW's (Americans)
The US Government tested/tests biological agents on its own citizens.

	My point is that in war,...all sides are capable of being monstrous bastards.
Part of propaganda's job is to make the 'good guys' look good.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:38:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:38:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com>
References: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com>
Message-ID: <02080314301904.00601@linux>

> That's all local.  If a system is really strapped, I'd send some fleet
> escorts to help out.  War is not always imminent, after all.  Too, while
> the Imperium cares about some weapons, why should it care about the
> smuggling of anything else?  "Admiral!  Smugglers are transporting illegal
> cargos of cigarettes to Zivije!"  "Ensign, go there immediately.  Buy me a
> few packs."
>
 I would think the Imperium would frown on many black market activities.
It avoids tribute to Emperor.
It undermines legitimate corporate profits and business practices.	
	As the Emperor is an active share-holder in many corporations and 
subsidiaries, it bites into his take directly. Not to mention the large 
amount of influence that mega-corps hold at all politiccal levels, they would 
insist even at a local level that the government put a stop to smuggling.
	Governments exist to ensure stable trade.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <fc.1bc430d6.2a7d06b7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEKGEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
 >big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.

I think that we had a long thread on this subject last year. One of the
things suggested was the use of X-ray Laser det mines. I posted a design
which allow either a ship or remote sensor platform to detonate the mines
when a ship came within range. The mines consisted of a nuclear warhead that
created a single pulse Xaser. This gave them the necessary range, a single
10,000 mile GURPS Traveller hex, to be effective weapons. Some one else
posted a TNE design for the same thing.

As I recall they were not that easy to find but would have been a much
bigger challenge to merchant and patrol craft than to capital ships. As with
all such weapons their greatest effect was to require opposing ships to be
looking for them and perhaps avoid them.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <ca.f8487da.2a7e2802@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020804105439.349f0cc8@pop.mindspring.com>

At 02:47 AM 8/4/2002 EDT, you wrote:
> >Cool.  And in the same time, you have the Zhos coming from everywhere (the
> >Consulate is much smaller, y'know) and the Zho's destroying the ares you
> >were supposed to be defending!  If you are lucky, you'll be killed in
> >battle, and won't be hung for gross incompetence.
> >
> >Mission is everything.  If you have been attacked, your first duty as an
> >Imperial officer is to defend the state.  Taking the war to the enemy's
> >home is a political decision.
>
>It seems I am to be the passive blind recipient of whatever comes my way, 
>while my opponent is free to act with clear vision.  You're right.  I'd
>lose.

Not if you keep your mission in mind.  Defense of the Imperium.  Put battle
fleets around critical systems like Jewell and Regina.  Have cruiser
squadrons covering approaches like those I detailed in my "Jewell Cluster"
plan.  You can take the offensive, but only after you have secured you own
territory from attack.  Hell, send raiders into Zho forward bases like
Cipango and Farreach. They won't do much real damage, but it will tie down
some of his reinforcements to rear defense. A squadron of 3,000 dton
destroyers can raise merry havoc against an orbital port.

An important part of defense is divining enemy intentions.  Take my Jewell
gambit.  You will have scouts as well, and looking at my moves, it will
soon become obvious that my main goal is Jewell itself.  Patience is the
Admiral's friend.  Look for your chance to exploit the enemy strategy to
your own ends.  Hassle him.  Take out outposts like Farreach, which secures
Efate and the Regina frontier along with giving you another axis of attack.
 Jewell is a high-pop world, and can hold out *for a time.*  In this case,
you aren't sacrificing worlds in order to seek out a decisive fleet
engagement; you are making strategic decisions that save the majority of
the important worlds of the sector.

Gather your reinforcements, then strike.  When you do attack, it must be an
overwhelming blow to the enemy.  Additional reinforcements are too far away
to make a difference. Go in with at least a 3:1 advantage in both tonnage
and firepower.  Try to make the engagement come at Jewell.  This way, you
will be able to stir up the anger and resolve of your forces with images of
a billion people under the yoke of the mind-raping scum.  This will be a
factor.  

After Jewell, assuming you win, do you go further?  Not unless Duke Norris
tells you to do so.  You, Admiral, are an instrument of policy.  Policy is
made by the bosses.  Let's say that Norris ate his Wheaties this morning.
You now face the opposite problem, planning an invasion.  The first thing
you do is define the exact goals of the mission: what are the exact
objectives.

Let's define it this way: remove the Zhodani from the Spinward Marches.
Your objective is obviously going to be Chronor.  Plan from there.  Main
attack, supporting attack, screening elements, ground troops.  With Chronor
neutralized, the other worlds in Jewell and Querion are isolated and can be
picked off one by one at your leisure, either through military action or
diplomatic efforts.

The point I, and the others are trying to make is that sub-battleship ships
serve a purpose.  A fleet needs ships it can spare for escort duty,
garrisoning small systems, feints, minor attacks.. every battleship not
built pays for a handful of cruisers or dozens of frigate/destroyer sized
ships.  Think versatility.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Embrace Fascism.    The uniforms look cool


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:29:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:29:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Check Your Landgrabs!
In-Reply-To: <1ad.629357b.2a7e2295@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020804105844.353f9bfc@pop.mindspring.com>

At 02:24 AM 8/4/2002 EDT, you wrote:
>What is the landgrab?

Claim a world in one of the published settings.  Detail the hell out of it.
Use any system you like. Publish the results here for everyone to admire.
Or put it up on the web, and post the link here for everyone to click.

Started during a hideously off-topic period of the TML's history by some
weirdo with a thing for penguins.  We've had a pretty good time with it.
--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                   - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:30:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:30:12 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was  COTI website)
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPGEAHEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <20020804060231.5D9A02793A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020804110019.353f3a82@pop.mindspring.com>

At 04:21 PM 8/4/2002 +0800, you wrote:
>Was that spam and eggs
>or spam, spam egs and spam?

Spam spam spam spam spam spam spam lovely spam, wonderful spam...
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:31:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:31:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Paging Martin Dougherty
In-Reply-To: <008101c23b82$ff35d320$8a0fbd50@martinjd>
References: <20020804013343.15643.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020804110258.353f8dd6@pop.mindspring.com>

At 07:48 AM 8/4/2002 +0100, you wrote:

>Uhh? It Morning. Me Brain-Slow. Remind What Information?
>Me Find Breakfast Cereal Now. Kill And Eat Cereal. Cereal Good.

Eek! A cereal killer loose in the TML!
-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of
limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:32:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:32:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <10.22d0c4c9.2a7e1fae@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020804111013.353f8596@pop.mindspring.com>

At 02:11 AM 8/4/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>But I'd love to play it.  You're right, I think victories are achieved 
>militarily.

Some of the time.  But you think tactically, while we are think strategically.

"Amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics."
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Death is an experience best avoided, as it makes
reliable internet access difficult to obtain.
                       - Xaonon, in alt.atheism

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:33:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:33:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
In-Reply-To: <200208040317.MAB01365@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020804111806.2cb706d8@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:17 PM 8/3/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>(Doug says, 'Who is Richard Tucholka?' )

Doug has everything Tri-Tac every published, he thinks, and an autographed
copy of "Stalking the Night Fantastic", thank you very much  :)
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:34:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:34:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <003601c23bb9$68924480$0616bd50@martinjd>
References: <20020804113405.2614.19201.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <001001c23bb4$101d4160$92aa5940@dixienet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020804112446.2cb71a74@pop.mindspring.com>

At 02:17 PM 8/4/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>
> ONLY the Master sees BOTH fleet positions - EVER. Opponents find out by
> ships finding each other. Politial rules prevent FLEETS ( 5 ships per
> group ) from crossing borders with declarations of war made.

I played in a double-blind 5FW game as the Zhodani commander.  We had a
bunch of house rules, and each fleet had a serperate Admiral.  It took
months, but I followed the basic attack plan I outlined in my other post.

War in the Third Imperium is a game of hide & seek.  Intelligence is
everything.  Planning is everything else.  I had a good plan, and the
"staff understood their roles, and how much discretion they had inside
their missions.  Third Assault Fleet's commander was decorated for his
audacious feints that drew four Imperial fleets away from relieving Jewell
and chasing him all over Lunion and Glisten.

When it was over, the Jewell cluster had been brought into the fold of
civilization.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry      gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"Well, thanks to the Internet, I'm now bored
 with sex." - Fry, Futurama

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:36:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:36:34 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Baboon Class Missile Frigate CREWS
Message-ID: <200208041828.g74ISow12329@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Flykiller@aol.com
>Subject: [TML] RE: Baboon Class Missile Frigate CREWS
...
>I think the big problem with this kind of boat is not their inefficiency, but 
>their crews.  It would be hard enough to get competent and willing captains, 
>pilots, and engineers with the necessary decades of experience for a few 
>heavily armed and armored capital ships that have adequate living space and 
>support cargo.  Finding thousands of deployable captains, pilots, and 
>engineers who would be willing to live and fight in barely-adequate 
>Volkswagens (as it were) would be a major problem.  I think this difficulty 
>should be reflected in their skill levels.  I know TCS specifically and 
>categorically states otherwise, but I think this issue is just too big and 
>reasonable to so breezily ignore it.

  I agree that it's a major issue, although the demographics and
economy of the 3I/OTU make it not critical for warship fleets.
The fighter swarm forces will have problems - the question might
be how good the commanders for any light warships will be?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Movies
Message-ID: <1a2.65f889d.2a7ed1b3@aol.com>

>  I hang out with several military history types
>(professors and non-profs).  There's a few complaints
>with GETTYSBURG's (and others') historical accuracy or
>getting the wrong people in the wrong roles.  Some 
>can't stand Short's accent, Berringer's false beard,
>or this aspect or that.  I enjoyed the movie

>regardless. 

It is as close as Hollywood ever gets (and frankly, it is as close as we can 
ever hope to get). Movies ALWAYS compress events, eliminate characters, and 
re-arrange things in the name of drama. But then again, so did the novel (THE 
KILLER ANGELS) hat the movie was based on. 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
Message-ID: <3D4D776E.B78FF865@mail.cswnet.com>

>Depart now and you forever separate 
>yourselves from the vital gaming legacies of James Dunnigan, 
>Steve Jackson, Gary Gygax, Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank 
>Chadwick, Andrew Keith, William Keith, John Harshman, 
>Professor Barker, and Richard Tucholka.

Professor Barker {?} info please.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for the Atro-genius Types (was: System Gen     Help)
In-Reply-To: <p04330101b97312dbe956@[198.123.22.192]>
Message-ID: <20020804190454.32509.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

So the answer is that, while unlikely, it is possible.

Makes for an interesting detail, and I kinda like it.

Thanks for the help everyone.

Paul


--- "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> Note: you don't come in from out of the solar system
> and drop into an 
> orbit.  To capture _any_ body from outside the solar
> system requires 
> interactions with other bodies (otherwise the
> velocity you built up 
> comeing in just pushes you right back out again). 
> If you sling shot 
> around something and loose velocity, you will settle
> into some sort 
> of orbit (barring collisions).  However, this orbit
> will be perturbed 
> over time and generally settle into some smaller
> subset of stable 
> orbits.
> -- 
> ______________________________
> summers@alum.mit.edu
> (This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in
> Boston, but I'm in California.)
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:06:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:06:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
Message-ID: <181.c196c70.2a7ed4f5@aol.com>

MJ Dougherty writes:

>> > Why do you want fighters to be more effective?
>>
>> So that they can have an outside possibility of damaging Capital ships
>at
>> high TL
>
>And again, why do you want this? Barring me swallowing some and suffering
>some strange kind of poisoning, no amount of flies can beat me in a straight
>fight. My feeling is that fighters are good for screening and keeping
>merchies in line. Big ships are for killing big ships.

"Screening?"  If, by rule and design, fighters can't affect anything much 
more than 100 times their size, AND can't get sufficient squadron or fleet 
level coordination to act as a coherent battery, then they have no chance of 
acting in a screening role *either*, since they won't have sufficient rating 
to affect passing missile barrages and can't be effectively put in a place to 
intercept those missile even if they *could* stop any.

Allowing for whole squadrons to have that outside chance *at range* means the 
opponent has to respond to them with escorts or fighters of their own, which, 
of course, leads to mounting of direct-fire weapons on the fighters as well. 
If you are only using "fighters" as extensions of your sensor-space, the way 
they are used and fielded changes completely. The first change will be that 
no one carries squadrons into war, only raids. Capital ships will carry only 
enough to use as "sensor drones", and no ship will likely be designed with 
massive rapid-launch capabilities (ie. launch tubes).
It's simple, really. If fighters aren't a threat in a line battle, then your 
opponent will have never built his own after seeing yours.

As a TNE fan, Martin, you should be very familiar with this argument, because 
this is *exactly* the line of thought that lead to the big det-laser missiles 
of TNE, and a combat system that would make such torps useful.

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Movies
In-Reply-To: <1a2.65f889d.2a7ed1b3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B972CA46.67D2A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/4/02 11:51 AM, GDWGAMES@aol.com at GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

>> I hang out with several military history types
>> (professors and non-profs).  There's a few complaints
>> with GETTYSBURG's (and others') historical accuracy or
>> getting the wrong people in the wrong roles.  Some
>> can't stand Short's accent, Berringer's false beard,
>> or this aspect or that.  I enjoyed the movie
> 
>> regardless. 
> 
> It is as close as Hollywood ever gets (and frankly, it is as close as we can
> ever hope to get). Movies ALWAYS compress events, eliminate characters, and
> re-arrange things in the name of drama. But then again, so did the novel (THE
> KILLER ANGELS) hat the movie was based on.


More info on the next Ron Maxwell film "Gods and Generals" can be found at
the web site http://www.godsandgenerals.com/

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Check Your Landgrabs!
Message-ID: <3D4D7CCE.FE3EF458@mail.cswnet.com>

Flykiller asks;
>What is the landgrab?

Oh, my good man, a landgrab is one of the most beautiful things in all
the universe. I highly recomend building one for yourself today!
For more info, go to this sight:

http://www.downport.com/landgrab/

Now, if I can put my Arba Real Estate hat on...

There are some good open frontier systems just waiting to be snatched up
in the Lunion and Vilis subsectors; Adabicci [has a class A port],
Rabwhar [has a scout base and a megacorps lab]. Over in Vilis, Vilis
itself hasn't been grabbed, plus Choleosti and Margesi. 

Get'em while there hot!

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:19:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:19:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
In-Reply-To: <3D4D776E.B78FF865@mail.cswnet.com>
References: <3D4D776E.B78FF865@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <kbvqkus21i0n0h2fmi9s0sq6fh7j9jnuj8@4ax.com>

On Sun, 04 Aug 2002 13:50:22 -0500, Roseberry
<rosebee@mail.cswnet.com> wrote:

>>Depart now and you forever separate=20
>>yourselves from the vital gaming legacies of James Dunnigan,=20
>>Steve Jackson, Gary Gygax, Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank=20
>>Chadwick, Andrew Keith, William Keith, John Harshman,=20
>>Professor Barker, and Richard Tucholka.
>
>Professor Barker {?} info please.

Empire of the Petal Throne, IIRC.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was  COTI website)
Message-ID: <3D4D7DDB.3B73E32A@mail.cswnet.com>

<snippaged>
>>Was that spam and eggs
>>or spam, spam egs and spam?

>Spam spam spam spam spam spam spam lovely spam, wonderful spam...

"Bloody Vikings!"

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Paging Martin Dougherty
Message-ID: <3D4D7EA9.6E1529D3@mail.cswnet.com>

>snippaged<
>>Uhh? It Morning. Me Brain-Slow. Remind What Information?
>>Me Find Breakfast Cereal Now. Kill And Eat Cereal. Cereal Good.

>Eek! A cereal killer loose in the TML!

Obviously an eater of NIETZCHE POPS, The Uber Breakfast!
I prefer Space Flakes (tm) myself.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
In-Reply-To: <3D4D776E.B78FF865@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEKJEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>Depart now and you forever separate
>>yourselves from the vital gaming legacies of James Dunnigan,
>>Steve Jackson, Gary Gygax, Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank
>>Chadwick, Andrew Keith, William Keith, John Harshman,
>>Professor Barker, and Richard Tucholka.
>
>Professor Barker {?} info please.
>
>Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>
Why the creator of "Empire of the Petal Throne" possibly the most complex
game world ever created, certainly one of the most complex not based on
Western mythology/ideology. (In this case I would count Traveller as based
on Western mythology since it is based on the classic science fiction of the
golden era, which is certainly a western literary mythology.)


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:30:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:30:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Paging Martin Dougherty
Message-ID: <memo.598862@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <3D4D7EA9.6E1529D3@mail.cswnet.com>
> Obviously an eater of NIETZCHE POPS, The Uber Breakfast!
> I prefer Space Flakes (tm) myself.

I go for Cthulhu-hoops every time :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:36:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:36:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Paging Martin Dougherty
In-Reply-To: <memo.598862@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020804193546.5A5D02793A@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/04/02 at 08:28 PM,  mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan
Robertson) said:

>In-Reply-To: <3D4D7EA9.6E1529D3@mail.cswnet.com>
>> Obviously an eater of NIETZCHE POPS, The Uber Breakfast!
>> I prefer Space Flakes (tm) myself.

>I go for Cthulhu-hoops every time :-)

I think that's marketed as Captain Cthulhu on this side of the pond.
;->

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:40:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:40:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
In-Reply-To: <3D4D776E.B78FF865@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <20020804193937.669AD2793A@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/04/02 at 01:50 PM,  Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com> said:

>>Depart now and you forever separate 
>>yourselves from the vital gaming legacies of James Dunnigan, 
>>Steve Jackson, Gary Gygax, Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank 
>>Chadwick, Andrew Keith, William Keith, John Harshman, 
>>Professor Barker, and Richard Tucholka.

>Professor Barker {?} info please.

Professor Barker created the "Empire of the Petal Throne" setting as a
youth, and has been adding to it for low these many years. The only
fantasy I ever played (as opposed to GMing) in, until recently, was an
EotPT game.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: meduim navies
Message-ID: <3D4D82E0.C26DA8F1@mail.cswnet.com>

Well, I just got done last night with Regina subsector, and came up with
a problem with the TL6- worlds. Basically, using the mercenary rule from
small navies just makes these worlds have massive merc navies [in Enopes
case, almost a Merc TCS]. So, until I can think up
a better way to tweak TL6- worlds, I'm just going to remove them
entirely. They'll still be counted for the 30% Imperial Navy tax, but
the rest of their budget won't be used. This I think gets it close to
the way it is in the FFW game. 

As for tweaking TL6- worlds, when I get done posting this I'm going to
go dig out the TNE Path of Tears supplement and see if that might be
usefull. I dunno.

I'll post up tax returns for Regina and Lanth, plus repost Lunion with
the removed TL6- worlds, latter tonight probably.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
Message-ID: <197.adccb8b.2a7edf13@aol.com>

Flykiller writes:

> >All I am doing is letting Fighters act like Turrets. If several turrets
>can
> >concentrate their fire to increase their effectiveness, why can't several
> >fighters?
>
>You could extend this same concept to spinal mount vessels.
>

You could, but you'd be inventing extensions to the charts to do so (as in, 
what is the rating of a pair of Meson-T's?), while the concept of grouping 
turrets is already part of the game and is incorporated into the charts.  
From a RL standpoint, grouping spinal fire also requires that you get several 
*large* ships to all point at one target long enough to acquire, aim, and 
fire.  Missiles aim themselves, and laser turrets (to carry the fighters as 
battery concept to defense) are articulated and thus also aimable without 
involving the engines.

In case you are wondering, this is my long way of saying "no, you can't".

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 14:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 13:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Failing planets
Message-ID: <98.29e35cc8.2a7ee374@aol.com>

Flykiller writes:

> >If planets are so self sufficient, then why does TNE describe planets
> >failing because they were cut off from interstellar trade?
>
>Don't know.  Doesn't make much sense to me.  I can see it happening here
>and there of course, but not en masse.  TNE may state it, but that's not 
>necessarily a reason to just swallow it.

Which just tells me you haven't read TNE. Not to worry, it's a common sin on 
this list.

It is based on the supposition that listed TL is "locally producable and 
maintainable" and the observation (made here many times) that many worlds 
don't seem to make sense in terms of environment and TL match (type B 
atmosphere and TL2, for example). TNE explained these cases as being 
supported by trade. If the trade dries up, and the world can't maintain the 
equipment that keeps it alive, eventually the world dies.  Add Virus and the 
after-effects of a 24-year long war that went into scorched earth tactics for 
the last five, and planets that *had* sufficient TL before may no longer. All 
it takes is that Virus-infected system to kill all the on-hand spares and 
blow up the factory, starport, and internal delivery systems (not uncommon 
for a Virus strike), and your life-support systems are dead in a few days. If 
Mr. Virus also sealed all the doors out of your arcology and turns the 
security systems on anyone who looks organized, then even a green and 
pleasant world can turn into a tomb.

Note that, for all the Virus-haters out there, the Black War and plain old 
human panic/stupidity can accomplish much the same results, often just as 
quickly.

I'm not going to take this further right now, as it drags in many of the TMLs 
classic battles, including the nature of Tech Level, commerce models, Virus, 
and the randomness of UWPs.

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 14:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 13:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
Message-ID: <137.122edd2d.2a7ee774@aol.com>

Flykiller writes:

> >Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
> >big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.
>
>What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other sensor systems
>you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?
>

Not the point. In space, mines are *terrain*, not ambushers.  Got an enemy 
force vectoring your way? Drop mines behind you in an area you think it 
likely he *has* to fly through. If he sees the mines, he may break off early 
enough to miss them, giving you either an escape option or (if properly 
deployed) a positional advantage for returning the attack.

What really affects mines is the same factor that affects fighters: will they 
be big enough to have *any* effect, even if they score a hit?

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 14:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug  4 13:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
Message-ID: <200208042039.MBL00293@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Roseberry asks
>Professor Barker {?} info please.

Empire of the Petal Throne...
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 15:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Aug  4 14:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
In-Reply-To: <137.122edd2d.2a7ee774@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B972E6BF.67D85%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/4/02 1:24 PM, GypsyComet@aol.com at GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:

> Not the point. In space, mines are *terrain*, not ambushers.  Got an enemy
> force vectoring your way? Drop mines behind you in an area you think it
> likely he *has* to fly through. If he sees the mines, he may break off early
> enough to miss them, giving you either an escape option or (if properly
> deployed) a positional advantage for returning the attack.

And also possibly making his sensors go active.  If the mines are stealthy
enough, he won't be able to detect them with passive sensors.
> 
> What really affects mines is the same factor that affects fighters: will they
> be big enough to have *any* effect, even if they score a hit?

That is the question.  But mines will be far cheaper than fighters.  No life
support, rudimentary controls, simple drive systems.  Probably fear cheaper.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 15:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Asbury)
Date: Sun Aug  4 14:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Professor Barker??
References: <20020804190005.1656.32029.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000601c23c02$0d81b280$08984c51@oemcomputer>

>>Depart now and you forever separate
>>yourselves from the vital gaming legacies of James Dunnigan,
>>Steve Jackson, Gary Gygax, Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank
>>Chadwick, Andrew Keith, William Keith, John Harshman,
>>Professor Barker, and Richard Tucholka.
>
>Professor Barker {?} info please.
>
>Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

Empire of the Petal Throne!

It was a early D&D derivative by the above mentioned prof.

It had a very oriental feel with him having a background in linguistics (and
it counted as sci-fi due to the strange background history... Humans and
other aliens try to terraform a planet, much to the anoyance of it
inhabitants, entire solar system disappears into a void, leaving everybody
up the creak, a few thousand years regression (theres no iron on planet!)
and alternate cultural development  later and enter the PCs.

It spawn numerous expansions, and two  novels bu M.A.R. Barker himself.

Major prob with this world? pronouncing the words! He did a Tolkien and
created his own languages and scripts.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 16:00:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug  4 15:00:34 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com> <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net> <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020805075953.A24737@freeman.little-possums.net>

hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> Hello Tim,
>   The missile damage rules in GURPS TRAVELLER make missile craft that much
>   more deadly than they were in any other TRAVELLER incarnation.

Oh.  Here was I thinking that the missiles were suboptimal and could
have been designed better and cheaper.  For example, it is trivial to
design a missile turret that can launch and control 20 missiles per
combat turn, each costing less than half as much with better
acceleration and damage.

If they are already vastly better than in previous Travelelr versions,
there's not really much point I guess. :-/



>  I personally do not use the GURPS STARSHIP combat rules as
>  presented,

Do you use something close, or a drastic re-write?  (Or not at all?)


> nor am I pleased with rendition of the Meson weapons in the GURPS
> TRAVELLER rule set.

They do look a little icky to me too.  What bothers you most?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 16:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug  4 15:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com> <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net> <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]>
Message-ID: <20020805081803.B24737@freeman.little-possums.net>

David P. Summers wrote:
> Missiles are very damaging.  However, they also can be intercepted.
> The utility of missiles depends on how many missiles you have vs how
> much point defense you foe has.

Yes, I'd noticed that too.  In particular, the existing missiles and
launchers can be greatly upgraded to achieve much better results
against point defense for rather little cost.  However, given other
comments it looks like doing so would take it even further away from
previous versions of Traveller. :-/


> However, dropping missiles entirely, going heaving into point
> defense, and using other weapons for a kill can be a viable route.

It seems that would be a good idea if your ship needs to spend a long
time away from resupply, but not good for actual battle capability.
Using the full Vehicles rules, I was unable to design a craft that
could mount enough point defense weapons to last more than a round or
two.

The other problem I noted is the short range of direct-fire weapons.
None of the presented beams could touch anything beyond 30 hexes.
Missiles (even the wimpy predesigned ones) can hit from 50 or so
hexes.

Of course, missiles have to be replaced -- beam weapons fire forever.
Were these factors not present in previous Traveller incarnations?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 16:20:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ludwig)
Date: Sun Aug  4 15:20:04 2002
Subject: [TML] prejudice (OT)
In-Reply-To: <55.2b3ad1ac.2a7dc32f@aol.com>
References: <55.2b3ad1ac.2a7dc32f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020804181934.4890b45c.mariachi@mac.com>

On Sat, 3 Aug 2002 19:37:19 EDT
Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

[...]
> The military rejects enlistment of those 32 and older (if I recall 
> correctly)
[...]

35 and older in the Navy.  IRL, that is.  Dunno about Traveller.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 16:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug  4 15:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <02080313391901.00601@linux>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux>
Message-ID: <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net>

richard honeycutt wrote:
> 	How many dinky airless rockballs with large populations do the
> world generation rules permit?

What does that matter?  They obviously don't need trade for survival.
It's not like they'll starve if you isolate them.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 16:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug  4 15:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEKGEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <fc.1bc430d6.2a7d06b7@aol.com> <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEKGEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20020805082530.D24737@freeman.little-possums.net>

Terry Carlino wrote:
> This gave them the necessary range, a single 10,000 mile GURPS
> Traveller hex, to be effective weapons.

Ah, that explains it.  You're using a two-dimensional map.  Yes, if
you can restrict spacecraft to move in a plane, then I agree that
space mines can be effective.  (But even then, only if you don't use
the GURPS Traveller space combat system)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 16:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Sun Aug  4 15:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Professor Barker??
In-Reply-To: <000601c23c02$0d81b280$08984c51@oemcomputer>
References: <20020804190005.1656.32029.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020804172747.0469acb0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

For more detail, check out:

www.tekumel.com

Cheers!  (or Ngangmuru! if you wish)

At 10:58 PM 8/4/02 +0100, you wrote:

> >>Depart now and you forever separate
> >>yourselves from the vital gaming legacies of James Dunnigan,
> >>Steve Jackson, Gary Gygax, Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank
> >>Chadwick, Andrew Keith, William Keith, John Harshman,
> >>Professor Barker, and Richard Tucholka.
> >
> >Professor Barker {?} info please.
> >
> >Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
>
>Empire of the Petal Throne!
>
>It was a early D&D derivative by the above mentioned prof.
>
>It had a very oriental feel with him having a background in linguistics (and
>it counted as sci-fi due to the strange background history... Humans and
>other aliens try to terraform a planet, much to the anoyance of it
>inhabitants, entire solar system disappears into a void, leaving everybody
>up the creak, a few thousand years regression (theres no iron on planet!)
>and alternate cultural development  later and enter the PCs.
>
>It spawn numerous expansions, and two  novels bu M.A.R. Barker himself.
>
>Major prob with this world? pronouncing the words! He did a Tolkien and
>created his own languages and scripts.
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 17:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Aug  4 16:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
In-Reply-To: <B972E6BF.67D85%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <137.122edd2d.2a7ee774@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4E5E7E.26225.7DEF71@localhost>

On 4 Aug 2002 at 14:12, Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 8/4/02 1:24 PM, GypsyComet@aol.com at GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:
> 
> > Not the point. In space, mines are *terrain*, not ambushers.  Got an enemy
> > force vectoring your way? Drop mines behind you in an area you think it
> > likely he *has* to fly through. If he sees the mines, he may break off early
> > enough to miss them, giving you either an escape option or (if properly
> > deployed) a positional advantage for returning the attack.
> 
> And also possibly making his sensors go active.  If the mines are stealthy
> enough, he won't be able to detect them with passive sensors.
> > 
> > What really affects mines is the same factor that affects fighters: will they
> > be big enough to have *any* effect, even if they score a hit?
> 
> That is the question.  But mines will be far cheaper than fighters.  No life
> support, rudimentary controls, simple drive systems.  Probably fear cheaper.

Here's a cheap TL15 mine, made using FF&S1 + Vampire Fleets (for the 
robot brain). I assume that for a weapon to be fully independent it 
must have a robot brain with the requisite skills (in this case Sensers 
and Gunnery).

TL Guidance Vol Mass AV MCr   G-Turns Warhead Hits Damage  Range Comm 
15 Full-Ind 1   1.18 3  1.527 3/3     50kt    1D6  1/14-43 0     10L

Sensor Signatures     Asset
1P     	+4/+3/+4/+3/+1 4/8

Because it has the warhead's built-in laser receiver it can also be 
used as a low-acceleration controlled missile. It has 3 G-turns of 
acceleration because that was the smallest practical rocket available 
and it has to have some manoeuvrability to be able to get into 
detonation range of a target. It would probably be programmed to attack 
any enemy vessel that came within 3 hexes (90,000km) of it and that it 
could get a lock on.

The biggest weakness is that power for the passive sensor, EMM system 
and brain is only good for 12 hours. Also it's surprsingly expensive 
(it costs more than a standard TL15 space combat missile), with most of 
the extra cost coming from the sensor.

Because it is only 1 m^3 in volume it can be carried in very large 
amounts (this is 1/7th the volume of a standard TNE space combat 
missile), and deployed in large numbers.

And for those who have money to burn:

TL Guidance Vol Mass AV MCr   G-Turns Warhead Hits Damage  Range Comm
15 Full-Ind 7   7.32 3  5.232 4/4     500ktx2 2D6  1/25-79 0     10L

Sensor Signatures     Asset
2P     	+4/+3/+4/+3/+1 6/16

Probably way too expensive for most people, but it should ruin the day 
of any smaller vessel that runs into a field of them.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 17:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 16:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <02080313391901.00601@linux>
 <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
 <02080313391901.00601@linux>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804192145.024cac00@192.168.0.1>

At 08:19 AM 8/5/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>richard honeycutt wrote:
> >       How many dinky airless rockballs with large populations do the
> > world generation rules permit?
>What does that matter?  They obviously don't need trade for survival.
>It's not like they'll starve if you isolate them.

On what do you base that on?


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 17:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sun Aug  4 16:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
References: <181.c196c70.2a7ed4f5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <006001c23c11$6fd780e0$c20fbd50@martinjd>

>
> "Screening?"  If, by rule and design, fighters can't affect anything much
> more than 100 times their size, AND can't get sufficient squadron or fleet
> level coordination to act as a coherent battery, then they have no chance
of
> acting in a screening role *either*, since they won't have sufficient
rating
> to affect passing missile barrages and can't be effectively put in a place
to
> intercept those missile even if they *could* stop any.

Well, it's possible to build an over-weaponed "strike boat" around a
powerful weapon such as a plasma gun. Lots of hurting power for its size and
cost. Fighters can screen vs such attacks. They can act as standoff sensor
and patrol platforms. And they SHOULD be able to kill incoming missiles as
area defense weapons. If they can't then THAT is a rule change that i agree
should be made.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 17:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sun Aug  4 16:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Pilots of the Future (was: warship optimization)
References: <000601c23bd4$abfd1270$6501a8c0@Darla>
Message-ID: <00a201c23c12$53cb3760$c20fbd50@martinjd>

>
> >
> > Main problem with drones is the ECM/ECCM/Jamming seesaw.
> >
> > And control lags over combat distances in space, OC.
> >
>
> That may be true of drones, but unmanned combat aircraft will be
> autonomous to a large degree.  I suspect that "video game reflexes" will
> not be useful skills in operating them - mission planning will be more
> important.

That makes sense. In fact, I wrote something to that effect in my PGW
report.
And then forgot about it. Pure genius.

Me go throw spears at bison now...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 17:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 16:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
Message-ID: <OF622B6C9A.381C2DCD-ONCA256C0B.008138BC@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Martin (I think) wrote:
>>And again, why do you want this? Barring me swallowing some and 
suffering
>>some strange kind of poisoning, no amount of flies can beat me in a 
straight
>>fight.

But a swarm of those killer Mexican bees should have you worried. They can 
kill you.

>>My feeling is that fighters are good for screening and keeping
>>merchies in line. Big ships are for killing big ships.
>
>"Screening?"  If, by rule and design, fighters can't affect anything much 

>more than 100 times their size, AND can't get sufficient squadron or 
fleet 
>level coordination to act as a coherent battery, then they have no chance 
of 
>acting in a screening role *either*,

Huh? There _are_ examples of effective fighter batteries. Now let's see, 
where did I put that reference... <dig, dig> ah yes, the excellent 
Illustrated Traveller Bibliography at:
        http://www.pemaquidsolutions.com/bibliography/

...has a CT section. Fighter batteries are somewhere in one or more of 
these:
        JTAS #14 High Guard: Optional Rules, by Stefan Jones
        JTAS #14 TCS Squadron Design, by Kevin Connolly
        JTAS #15 TCS Squadron Design II, by Kevin Connolly
        JTAS #23 Naval Command, by Jeff Groteboer
        JTAS #24 Ref Notes: High Guard and TCS Campaigns, Leroy W.Guatney **
        (** It's by Leroy, but please don't let that put you off! ;-)

...and are definitely in:
        JTAS #27 Fighter Profile: The Rampart IV and V

They are treated just like an extra battery. The only time they could 
affect BIG ships is if they fired nukes, I guess. But they certainly act 
as an effective anti-missile screen.

Ah, look, I'm coming in 1/2-way thru this discussion. Feel free to ignore 
me.  ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 17:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Sun Aug  4 16:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020805081803.B24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <000b01c23c12$0a9e0040$0b01a8c0@duck>

> Of course, missiles have to be replaced -- beam weapons fire forever.
> Were these factors not present in previous Traveller incarnations?

They were in Book 2, but those factors were completely dropped in
High Guard.  Missles were free with an infinite supply.  HG just 
gave cost for the turret or bay weapons.  The ammo was assumed.

For small ships, missles were the only way to go.  You would mount
other stuff to fill out the USP, but missles were how you survived
because a nuclear missle could do near spinal damage without the 
spinal mount.

The other huge plus for HG missles is that they effectively increase
agility.  Since they take no power, they allow smaller power plants
to be used, or allow higher agility for the same sized power plant.

And there is an infinite supply of zero-mass, zero-volume free missles.

What a deal!

Honestly, except for some very specific cases, I have no idea why
anyone would use anything but spinal mesons and gobs and gobs of
missle bays.  The other weapons are just there to pad out the USP.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 17:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 16:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Paging Martin Dougherty
Message-ID: <OF6044E6DB.0B13FF37-ONCA256C0B.008342A9@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

>>> Obviously an eater of NIETZCHE POPS, The Uber Breakfast!
>>> I prefer Space Flakes (tm) myself.
>
>>I go for Cthulhu-hoops every time :-)
>
>I think that's marketed as Captain Cthulhu on this side of the pond.

Conme on! Any self-respecting Traveller should be eating that old 
"Goodies" breakfast staple, "Plastic Spacemen"!!

"Look mum, I found a corn flake!"

;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 17:57:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 16:57:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <c8.2ae3e017.2a7f1945@aol.com>

 >[snip good stuff]
 >ONLY the Master sees BOTH fleet positions - EVER. Opponents find out by
 >ships finding each other. Politial rules prevent FLEETS ( 5 ships per
 >group ) from crossing borders with declarations of war made.
 >
 >Think you can handle that?

Yes, I'd love to.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 18:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 17:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
Message-ID: <OF4B1DD5B4.382CD3B0-ONCA256C0C.000000B8@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

>But mines will be far cheaper than fighters.
>Probably fear cheaper.
          ^^^^
Ah yes, the old "your mine was made by the lowest bidder" concept. ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 18:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 17:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <9a.298a34a5.2a7f1cbe@aol.com>

 >But seriously, the comm delay and limited intelligence turned a wargame into
 >a nightmare.

Explains a lot about why the real military is the way it is.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 18:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 17:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Check Your Landgrabs!
Message-ID: <9b.2b7bf726.2a7f2041@aol.com>

 >>What is the landgrab?
 >
 >Claim a world in one of the published settings.  Detail the hell out of it.
 >Use any system you like. Publish the results here for everyone to admire.
 >Or put it up on the web, and post the link here for everyone to click.

I've done some work on Pagaton.  Is there an official listing of who has 
what, or it is a free-for-all?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 18:33:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 17:33:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: meduim navies
Message-ID: <3D4DC693.966243AF@mail.cswnet.com>

Initial Fleets for Lunion, Lanth, and Regina subsectors using
"meduim navies".

Initial Fleets, Lunion subsector

Imperial Navy MCr 2,835,544.748

Wardn. MCr 55
Smoug MCr 14700
Adabicci MCr 322,000
Zaibon MCr 148.75
Spirelle MCr 312,375
Derchon MCr 36,225
Lunion MCr 3,080,000
Shirine MCr 252
Harvoset MCr 14175
Perisephone MCr 28350
Capon MCr 17,850
Strouden MCr 3,465,000

This is peace time budget x10, using "meduim navies".
Note: I'm using supp3 to start, so Wardn is independent.

Initial Fleets, Lanth subsector

Imperial Navy MCr 68668.554

Extolay MCr 40250
Lanth MCr 220.5
Dinom MCr 63
Ghandi MCr 9.98
Wypoc MCr 267.75
Quopist MCr 1592.5
Treece MCr 105,000
Ivendo MCr 332.5
Tureded MCr 178.5
Equus MCr 66500
Rhise MCr 31.85
Icetina MCr 126
Cogri MCr 1785
Skull MCr 12600

This is peace time budget x10, using "meduim navies".

Initial Fleets, Regina subsector

Imperial Navy MCr 3,957,399.439

Efate MCr 3,220,000
Alell MCr 241,500
Yres MCr 13650
Menorb MCr 603,750
Uakye MCr 120.75
Boughne MCr 189
Hefry MCr 10.5
Ruie. MCr 9,100,000
Jenghe MCr 1365
Regina MCr 422,625
Feri MCr 409,500
Roup MCr 1,260,000
Yori MCr 23275
Dentus MCr 157.5
Wochiers MCr 294,000
Yorbund MCr 35
Moughas MCr 308
Rethe MCr 6,300,000
Inthe MCr 18200
Shionthy MCr 20825

This is peace time budget x10, using "meduim navies".

Notes: I'm using old supp3 for world tech levels, so Kinorb does'nt make
it [TL5]. Also, Yori is figured at TL13. Finally, Shionthys Imperial
Income is not included in the Imperial Fleet listing. I seperated it
because I deemed that income coming from Shionthy would be in the form
of collected CT-Shards, which would not go to local Imperial forces but
rather get sent off to an appropriate depot and/or research station.
This 'income' amounts to MCr892.5 annually. Also,
Shionthy is one of a very few in the Marches that would produce naval
income. The other 3 would be the two Droyne worlds in the Five Sisters
and Lewis in the Aramis subsector. I'm sure none of the three would be
contributing anything to the Imperial Treasury.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 18:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Aug  4 17:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
In-Reply-To: <200208040445160020.54D0CCA6@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
References: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPGEAHEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
 <200208040445160020.54D0CCA6@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <m37kj6jfye.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com> writes:
> 
> So does SPAM survive the Rule of Man, the Long Night and into the
> Third Imperium?

It no longer is manufactures, but reserves of SPAM still exist.  The
stuff lasts forever, you know...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
To murder a man is much odious, to kill a woman is in manner unnatural,
but to slay and destroy innocent babes and young infants, the whole
world abhorreth, and their blood from the earth crieth for vengeance to
almighty God.                                    --Edward Hall, c. 1480

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 18:42:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Aug  4 17:42:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Taxes
In-Reply-To: <000501c23bd4$ab74f6b0$6501a8c0@Darla>
References: <000501c23bd4$ab74f6b0$6501a8c0@Darla>
Message-ID: <m33ctujfxj.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Thomas Barnes" <twb3@charter.net> writes:
>
> IMTU the Imperium gets at 10% tariff on the value of all goods
> shipped interstellar, plus 10% of the fares charged for interstellar
> passage.  The Imperium does not levy any direct taxes on
> individuals.

Those rates would make it _very_ difficult to make a profit as a free
trader...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
If you're a politician, bureaucrat, or cop whose livelihood depends on
the drug war, you're fully as contemptible as any pusher, smuggler, or
cocaine baron--more so, because, unlike them, you profit directly by
destroying what was once the greatest freedom ever known to mankind.
                              --Mirelle Stein, The Productive Class

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 18:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 17:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Imperial Taxes
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGELECEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: hal@buffnet.net
>
>In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head tax" or does it charge
>an income tax on its citizens for its Imperial Budget requirements?  In

In my Traveller universe, the Imperium does not tax individuals directly.
It taxes its member states, and the tax is part of the membership treaty
that the world and the Imperium make when the star system joins the
Imperium.  The treaties vary substantially in defining the tax, but it is
usually based on the gross product of the member.  How the member raises
that tax is the member's business, but it is normally added to the members'
own internal taxation schemes.

The Imperium taxes corporations and other businesses involved in
interstellar trade directly.  For game purposes, I assume that all of the
prices provided by the books that relate to commercial starship operations
are just net of taxes.  Businesses doing only a small amount of interstellar
trade are exempt from direct Imperial taxation.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 18:52:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 17:52:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Check Your Landgrabs!
Message-ID: <3D4DCB21.7989C728@mail.cswnet.com>

>I've done some work on Pagaton.  Is there an official listing of who >has what, or it is a free-for-all?

For more info, go to this sight:

http://www.downport.com/landgrab/

Don't forget these worlds; they haven't been grabbed yet.
Adabicci, Rabwhar, Vilis, Choleosti and Margesi. 

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:02:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:02:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <25.2b8bf94f.2a7e4e43@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000301c23cba$1984c370$1001a8c0@sauron>

CHam628781@aol.com wrote :
> One option is visible fertility - humans are unusual in that
> we don't know when women are in oestrus. In a society where
> that didn't exist there is likely to be tight social control
> over gender interaction.
>
> You might see harem based families (K'Kree) or you might see
> a society where males and females have parrallel societies
> with extremely ritualised methods of interaction, particularly
> if women tend to become fertile at around the same time.
>
> One interesting possibilty is Vagr society where it would be
> obvious to every male within quite a distance that the high
> ranking, young female en route to take part in a political
> wedding and placed in the care of  the PCs by her
> doting (if somewhat inflexible, powerful and violent father)
> has just come "on heat" for the first time...

I have to bring up the Harry Turtledove World War series again here.

The use of ginger as a weapon against the invading "lizards" is just
priceless.

For those that aren't familiar, in the books ginger acts as an intoxicant on
lizard males, and does the same on females, except that it also induces all
the outward signs of oestrus including the release of the associated
pheremones, which in turn generates a matching reation in the male,
resulting in mating being the only thing that any male lizard with in scent
of the ginger-using female can think about.

The effect of sex happening "at any time" on what had been until then a
rigidly controlled society is, um, interesting.

It is really tempting to use this is as a plot on a B'wapp controlled world,
seeing as B'waap are pretty close to Turtledove's lizards otherise.

> Do male Aslan mark their territory?

I don't see why not. Human males do. <grin>

> "Elmer that danged tomcat's peeing on the airlock again! Go
> own scat, shoo - you pee on it you pay for it!"

Do we extend this to Aslan too then?

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:03:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:03:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller webring
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804205811.021c4950@mail.charter.net>

All the current (that I know of) Traveller webrings can be found at
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/RPG/SV/TRAV/TravRings.html

These include the gearhead ring, the deckplans ring, and the Reavers' Deep 
webring.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
A well-educated electorate being necessary to the
prosperity of a free state, the right of the people to
keep and read books, shall not be infringed.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:05:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:05:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Note on the rockhead ring
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804210228.01931b98@mail.charter.net>

The page listed as the ring homepage isn't there.

Try here <http://prattfall.tripod.com/gurps/traveller.html> for more 
information.

----------------------------------------------
"Function in disaster. Finish in style."
-- Lucy Madeira http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
----------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Junk in space
In-Reply-To: <20020730104900.B2820@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20804.181110.0M6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> On the other hand, a 2 cm chunk of something is going to do more
>> than leave a dent.
>
> Such a chunk probably has a kinetic energy of about 1 MJ at best, and
> very likely is travelling at substantially less than the speed of
> sound in starship hull material.

Okay, call it 5 grams. E=.5*m*v^2

1000000 = .5 *.005 * v^2

1e6 = 2.5e-3 * v^2
400e6 = v^2
20e3 = v

Somehow, I doubt that the speed of sound in starship hull material is
20 km/sec!

> I think "make a dent" would be about right.  If one ever hit, which it
> wouldn't unless the sensors were crippled.

Are you going to dodge? Or try to blow it up?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Check Your Landgrabs!
Message-ID: <200208050120.MBT01955@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Roseberry says
>Don't forget these worlds; they haven't been grabbed yet.
>Adabicci, Rabwhar, Vilis, Choleosti and Margesi. 

You're kidding, right?  If so, then I'll grab Vilis.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:25:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:25:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020804232303.7408.33320.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <006701c23c1f$2baff600$195d8690@computer>

> From: Mark Urbin
> At 08:19 AM 8/5/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
> >richard honeycutt wrote:
> > >       How many dinky airless rockballs with large populations do the
> > > world generation rules permit?
> >What does that matter?  They obviously don't need trade for survival.
> >It's not like they'll starve if you isolate them.
>
> On what do you base that on?

I believe he was being sarcastic.

Mind you, I suspect many rockballs would have extensive greenhouses. They
wouldn't necessarily live on imports and Soylent Green.

At least, if _I_ was planning a rockball colony, they would have extensive
greenhouses.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology
Message-ID: <006801c23c1f$2c8101a0$195d8690@computer>

>No, 'cause they'd still not get the full rest needed.  My
>greatgrandfather and grandfather took well over a month to return to
>the US after WWI & WWII; my father was back in college in 48 or so
>hours after his time in Vietnam.  Granted, that's _some_ rest time,
>but it's not nearly enough.  You don't find as much PTSD in fellows
>who got to slowly make their way back home, adjust to the new reality
>&c.; you find quite a lot in guys who are plucked up from one
>situation and dropped in another.

I wouldn't underestimate the frequency of PTSD among WWI and WWII vets. I've
spent quite a bit of time talking to widows of WWII vets, and quite a lot of
them have horror stories of how their husbands would sometimes lose the
plot.

The POWs seem to have had the most problems, of course. This seems to be
true even when they were held by the Germans and Italians, rather than by
the Japanese.

As for WWI, well, let's just say that Australia started having a bit of a
drug problem after 1918.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:28:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:28:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020804173620.8351.57196.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <006901c23c1f$2dd85440$195d8690@computer>

> From: "MJ Dougherty"
> The confirmation came back "Cannot attack. My cuirassiers are in front of
> my lancers. Must redeploy for maximum effectivenesss." (He'd been fiddling
> with his deployments for 3 hours game-time and was now under artillery
fire)

: )

Once in a multi-player Seven Year's War game I moved my general figure over
to where one of my team-mates' general was, and then shouted at the fool.
He'd been moving his artillery backwards and forwards for the whole game,
while my force was fighting superior numbers of Prussians. If his guns had
been firing, we might have won.

I think at some point we probably should get some multi-player strategic
PBEMs going. Something along the lines of FFW, although I don't own a copy
of it.

Hmm. I've always wanted to run an Arbellatra vs Gustus game. Maybe I should
actually do it.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:33:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:33:05 2002
Subject: [TML] prejudice (OT)
In-Reply-To: <20020804181934.4890b45c.mariachi@mac.com>
Message-ID: <000401c23cbe$835713d0$1001a8c0@sauron>

Ludwig wrote :
> Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> [...]
> > The military rejects enlistment of those 32 and older (if I recall
> > correctly)
> [...]
>
> 35 and older in the Navy.  IRL, that is.  Dunno about Traveller.

That's actually a very good point.

In Traveller, with good meditech and anagathics, there's no reason a
forty-year-old couldn't still have a good twenty years of service left in
her.

If you want to extrapolate on current medical capabilities and imagine
several thousand years of good diet and breeding, one could expect it be
common that hard-bitten sixty-year-old warriors would wipe the floor with
mere brats of 35, who have not had enough years of training to even begin to
approach them.

Another point about "combat effectiveness", having just recently watched the
film "Snatch" again. Fitness and training are not neccessarily any match for
brutality and nastiness.
Age, of course, has nothing to do with this.

Many people (especially ex-military types) seem to assume that the measure
of "combat effectivenes" is how fit you are, how well you can stand up on
the battlefield or in a pre-announced fight.

But if you're the sort of nasty little f*ck that stabs people in the balls
when they are not expecting it, just because they made the mistake of
talking to you when you're annoyed , then you can probably kill a lot of
your opponents before they even realize they are in a fight.

IIRC, the infamous "Carlos" otherwise known as "The Jackal" was, during his
most famous escapades, a balding, overweight, middle-aged man who was
completely out of breath after running up a couple of flights of stairs.

I have, on occassion, become involved in violence. In almost all cases,
intimidation was my most effective weapon, and that was all
verbal/psychological intimidation as I am not a large person. In the case's
where intimidation failed, being able to cause extreme pain, and take a few
blows while doing so, was far more important than fitness or fancy
technique.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Landgrab of Vilis
Message-ID: <200208050146.MBV00737@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

If I'm doing Vilis, I think I had better do Garda-Vilis, 
unless someone has already done that one.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Spam Spam Spam Spam...
Message-ID: <19d.66884a1.2a7f37e7@aol.com>

Hunter writes:

>So does SPAM survive the Rule of Man, the Long Night and into the Third=
> Imperium? If so, is it just a Solomani thing, or have the Vilani and=
> others come to enjoy this uniquely Terran... ummm .... stuff? I'm just=
> picturing a group of adventurers finding an old Rule of Man cache,=
> stockpiled with cans of good old SPAM!

I would expect that any planet in Solomani space settled by Hawaiians would 
either create or import vast amounts.  How widespread it would get really 
depends on shelf-life and the viability of swine off Terra. It may just be 
that pigs just don't taste the same when raised elsewhere, and so all Spam 
comes from Terra...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:09:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:09:21 2002
Subject: [TML] adventure
Message-ID: <1ac.6380721.2a7f37b7@aol.com>

Traveller Adventure: Comet Busters

For referees only.  If you intend to play this adventure, quit reading now 
and direct your game referee to this page. 

(continue paging down) 










Requirements 
The adventurers must have their own ship with a cargo space of at least 3 
tons, and vacc suits for all adventurers plus three.  If the vacc suits prove 
to be a major problem then let the players find extra vacc suits in the local 
starport repair shop.  The adventure team must have at least one person with 
engineering skill, preferably two, and at least one with mechanical skill. 

Set-up 
The adventurers have the only ship presently in-system at xxxx.   While 
technically backward the world is sufficiently advanced to have astronomical 
interests.  Recently a large new comet has been detected, and calculations 
have just shown that it will collide with xxxx in less than two days.  xxxx's 
government will send a pair of generals and a squad of troops by helicopter 
to request the ship's captain to come with them to a nearby military base 
where he will meet xxxx's supreme leader.  This leader will inform the 
captain of the situation his planet faces, and will (firmly) ask him to take 
on board several nuclear weapons and a nuclear weapons team and to deliver 
them to the comet, where they hope to to break it up.  Should the captain or 
the other adventurers prove less than altruistic the government will offer 
the following as incentives:  land holdings planetside, 1 million credits, 
large business-oriented interest-free loans, and lifetime tax- and duty-free 
status, for each adventurer.  This is the "Hero of xxxx" monetary award, and 
has been awarded by this planet only a few dozen times in its history. 

Should the adventurers demand further payments the government will agree to 
anything while the crisis is pending, but will then defer payment 
authorization to the proper bureaucracy, which will deny any payment greater 
than that listed above.  "This is not constitutionally authorized etc." 

The nukes are primitive and bulky, and will require manual detonation.  Any 
member of the weapons team will volunteer as necessary to make the devices 
work. 

All payment agreements will be with the government chief executive, and will 
be verbal.  Any payments made will be on mission accomplishment, not before. 

The general population will not be notified of the impending catastrophe. 

Begin Mission 
If the adventurers' captain agrees to this mission he will be immediately 
helicoptered back to his vessel, along with several generals, a squad of 
soldiers, and three wooden-crated nuclear devices.  The cases have simple 
manual control panels on the outside, with connector jacks and hand-held 
pushbutton actuators.  They are escorted by a weapons team, two young 
lieutenants and a tough-looking sergeant who are volunteering to deliver 
these devices and detonate them.  On arrival at the ship the nukes will be 
loaded into the cargo space immediately and the adventurers will be asked to 
begin their mission without delay since time is short.  If the adventurers 
insist on inspecting the cargo before it is loaded aboard they will be 
permitted to do so.  If there are not enough vacc suits then someone should 
bring up this issue now, and a frantic general search should ensue. 

Maneuvering to the Comet 
The weapons team will have sidearms and combat knives, both visible and 
concealed, as a matter of policy.  "We can't allow transportation of nuclear 
weapons without an armed escort.  Would you?"  Their mission is to blow up 
the comet, and they'll do anything to accomplish that.  If their sidearms are 
demanded of them while aboard ship they will comply immediately but 
reluctantly, handing over their visible pistols.  If pressed they will then 
give up their visible knives.  If the concealed weapons are located and 
confiscated then the team will begin quietly noting common gear that can be 
used as weapons in an emergency, such as fire extinguishers, pliers, 
wrenches, and the like.  Each lieutenant has brawling skill 2 while the 
sergeant has brawling skill 3, meaning they will be formidable hand-to-hand 
opponents.  The team will make no attempt to stand guard directly over the 
nuclear devices but rather will stick together at all times, believing they 
have a better chance against any treachery if they work as a unit. 

The approach will take about 20 hours and will be uneventful.  Most free time 
will be spent helping the weapons team learn how to use the ship's vacc suits 
and how to function in a zero gravity environment, which skills they will 
need in order to move the weapons on the comet's surface.  Also all three 
weapons team members will express great interest in learning how the ship 
flies through space, making comments such as "I always wanted to be a pilot, 
but I never thought I'd fly in outer space" and "I hope my world learns to do 
this some day".  All will ask to sit in the pilot's seat and maneuver the 
vessel at least once.  Both officers, if engaged in coversations, will show 
pictures of their families.  If asked about his family the much older 
sergeant will only comment that he is not sentimental.  If pressed he will 
simply insist on concentrating on the mission:  "I want to go over the vacc 
suit again.  Please show me how to deal with an air leak." 

If there is any serious confrontation between the adventurers and the weapons 
team then the weapons team will make absolutely every effort to get the 
mission back on track. 

Arrival 
On arrival at the comet the weapons team will gather on the bridge with the 
adventurers to see what they're up against.  The arrival will be very rough.  
The comet will be surrounded by debris, some of it capable of damaging the 
ship, bubbling up in the turbulent atmosphere boiling off of the comet's 
surface and escaping into space.  Visibility to the surface will be poor.  
Intelligent adventurers, in the face of this obvious hull-breach hazard, will 
go to general quarters, all hands donning vacc suits and depressurizing major 
spaces.  If the adventurers have not yet thought to ask then the weapons team 
will now inform them that they need to find a crack or depression in the 
comet large enough to allow manual insertion of the weapons and deep enough 
that a weapon detonation there will cause the comet to pop apart, thus 
diverting the majority of the comet mass around the inhabited planet in a 
large ring and minimizing the size of the pieces that do hit the planet. 

At some point during the approach the sergeant (or a lieutenant) will either 
locate and retrieve the team's firearms without the adventurers' knowledge or 
he will find some suitable substitute such as a rivet gun or emergency flare 
launcher.  Whatever he finds he will put it in his vacc suit outer pocket. 

Landing 
In a few hours the comet will be too close to xxxx for the nuclear detonation 
to have any effect on its chances of hitting the planet.  A short search will 
immediately discover two likely-looking canyons.  One will be easily and 
safely approached, but may not be deep enough.  The other is definitely deep 
enough, but will be dangerous to approach.  If the ship lands near the first 
canyon it will immediately be obvious that the canyon is not deep enough and 
that the second canyon must be attempted.  There is no time to look for a 
third canyon, but if the adventurers insist on trying then they will have to 
maneuver through debris that might damage their ship.  For each turn spent 
looking roll two six-sized dice and add the pilot's skill; if 8 or higher 
(8+) then the ship's pilot successfully avoids the debris, otherwise the ship 
will be hit by a rock that causes a hull breach.  On approaching the second 
canyon roll 10+, plus pilot skill, to avoid a minor crash landing that will 
require continuous work by all engineers to fix before a takeoff can be 
attempted, and roll 10+, plus pilot skill, to avoid a collision with debris 
that will cause a minor hull breach in a primary living space.  If all ship's 
engineers work to repair the damage, roll 6+, +1 for every engineer working 
on the problem, +1 for every 15 minutes of work that has passed, every 15 
minutes, to repair the hull breach, and roll 15+, plus mechanical skill of 
the senior engineer working on the problem, +1 for every other engineer 
working on the problem, +1 for every 15 minutes of work that has passed, 
every 15 minutes, to repair the crash landing damage.  The engineers can work 
on only one job at a time, and the ship can easily maneuver even with the 
hull breach, so presumably the adventurers will seek to repair the crash 
landing damage first. 

On A Refusal 
If for some reason the adventurers refuse to procede and try to abandon the 
mission then the weapons team will draw any weapons they can, imprison the 
adventurers in a stateroom, and attempt to land the ship near the comet's 
deepest canyon.  They will crash-land, automatically doing double the damage 
specified above.  The adventurers may, of course, attempt to resist this 
hijacking. 

On The Surface 
When the ship lands, whether gracefully or not, the weapons team will 
immediately begin manhandling the nuclear devices out of the ship's cargo 
bay.  Two of them will only be able to move one weapon at a time, while one 
remains in the cargo bay door with weapons left there while others are being 
moved.  All of them, having little zero gravity experience, will have to work 
slowly to make any progress.  They will request assistance from the 
adventurers (one lieutenant will release the adventurers, if they were 
hijacked, and then immediately go back outside), with assurances that the 
adventurers will not have to remain behind to detonate the bombs and that 
they will have time to get away. 

Before (if) any adventurers move out to assist the weapons team a patch of 
high-speed debris will strike the soldiers, puncturing their suits.  The two 
lieutenants will die, while the sergeant will succeed in emergency patching 
his suit but be seriously wounded.  The weapons and the ship will will be 
undamaged.  If no adventurers are moving out to assist the weapons team, or 
if they retreat, the sergeant will again request assistance, stating that he 
himself is unable to continue. 

If the adventurers refuse to help then the sergeant will arm the weapons and 
threaten to detonate them immediately if the adventurers do not complete the 
job.  If the adventurers still refuse to assist, he will do so.  The 
detonation will be successful and save the planet entirely on 10+, else save 
it but with great damage on 8+.  The ship and adventurers will be destroyed.  
The adventurers will be unable, because of terrain and angle, to bring any 
ship's weapons to bear against the sergeant without first lifting off and 
gaining altitude from the comet, which action will be immediately visible to 
him. 

If the adventurers assist involuntarily then the sergeant will supervise them 
with the recovered gun in one hand and the pushbutton actuator in the other.  
The referee will have to adjudicate further action.  If the adventurers 
succeed in placing the weapons to the sergeant's satisfaction he will dismiss 
them, giving them a time limit to get away before he manually detonates the 
nukes.  If the adventurers assist voluntarily the sergeant will be unable to 
help move the nukes but he will be able to supervise weapon placement.   

Time pressure will be very high.  The mission is fast approaching a point 
where it will be too late for the planned detonation to affect the comet's 
impact on the planet.  The sergeant will be fully aware of that time, having 
marked it on his watch, and he will goad the adventurers as necessary to 
hurry.  If that point is reached before the weapons are fully placed then he 
will detonate the weapons immediately regardless of any other consideration.  
If the detonation time is getting very close and it looks as if the weapons 
will not be fully placed he will stop goading the adventurers so as to keep 
them calm and working until the last possible minute.  While moving the 
weapons under this time pressure each adventurer must at some point roll 12+ 
once, plus dexterity stat, to avoid injury due to haste in handling large 
objects in close quarters in zero gravity.  Injuries will be pinched limbs.  
For each injury roll again with 12+ indicating a serious injury leaving the 
adventurer unable to contribute any further effort towards moving the 
weapons. 

If the engineers finish repairs then they may quickly join the effort to move 
the nukes down the canyon. 

The Find 
As the adventurers are moving the weapons to the bottom of the canyon, their 
vacc suit headlamps shining in the darkness, all will notice right away that 
there are strange shapes frozen into the glass- clear ice in both canyon 
walls.  It soon becomes apparent that the shapes are several non-humanoid 
aliens, some artifacts, and what appears to be a ship.  The aliens strongly 
resemble praying manti and are a little smaller than human-size.  They wear 
straps carrying various items of gear, but no clothing.  The ends of their 
"arms" have manipulatory organs with multiple opposing digits.  The ship 
appears to be about two hundred tons or so.  The tail section is not in view, 
and no guess as to the propulsion system can be made.  The artifacts are 
scattered about in the ice near the aliens and near the surface. 

Recovery 
After the sergeant recovers from his own amazement he will continue to insist 
on weapon placement.  When this is finished he will dismiss the adventurers 
while he remains behind to initiate the detonation.  If the adventurers have 
fully cooperated with the supreme leader and the weapons team from the very 
beginning and have otherwise been efficient then they will have enough time 
to attempt to recover artifacts from out of the ice, should they choose to 
try.  They will be able to reach up to two items per adventurer present, for 
up to a total of nine items, before time pressure forces them to abandon 
further excavation and to head for the surface to escape the planned 
detonation.  If they must choose between objects then the adventurers can 
from select the following:  three iridium- colored hollow tubes 1" diameter 
6" long, two palm-sized saucer-shaped metal disks ringed with buttons, two 
plain silver balls 2" in diameter, about half of an alien's head, and one 
entire alien arm.  If the players ask if they can take pictures then remind 
them that their vacc suits incorporate videocams and that they can fully 
record, in high definition digital format, all that they see as they work. 

Escape 
As the adventurers return to their ship any repair crew should have had six 
chances to repair the ship should they have needed to do so.  If the ship is 
not yet repaired and the adventurers have been efficient in their use of time 
then they should have two more chances to repair the damage and resume flight 
without having to worry about blast from the nukes.  If a final roll is 
necessary (and successful) before flight is possible then the adventurers 
will escape but their vessel will likely take serious damage from fragments 
of the blasted comet (repeat the damage and repair possibilities listed 
earlier in Landing).  If damaged, the ship must be repaired in two hours or 
it will burn up in the planet's atmosphere.  If the vessel is still on the 
surface of the comet when detonation takes place then the ship will 
automatically take all damage listed in Landing (no roll) and again must be 
repaired in two hours or burn up in the planet's atmosphere.  In addition to 
this, each crew member must roll less than or equal to both his strength stat 
and dexterity stat or be injured sufficiently to be unable to participate in 
any repair effort. 

The Artifacts 

Iridium Tubes 
Saucers 
Silver Balls 
Manti Body Parts 

Aftermath 
If the adventure team acted in a timely manner and did not engage in 
excessive delays then the planet will suffer only minor damage from pieces of 
the destroyed comet, and the adventure team will be paid to the limit 
previously specified.  If, however, the adventure team failed to perform 
expeditiously then upon their return they will find that large pieces of the 
comet have impacted the planet.  Overall damage to the planet's biosphere and 
human population will be moderate and temporary.  Damage to the government, 
however, will be fatal -- the capitol city, governing center, and starport 
will have been destroyed by a nearby strike.  All who knew of the adventure 
team's involvement in trying to stop the comet, including the supreme leader 
and senior military officers, as well as all who knew of any payment 
arrangements made with the adventurers, will have been killed in the impact.  
If they press their case and an investigation is launched they will have 
little evidence of their roll in this matter.  Astronomers will report that 
they did in fact notify the government of the impending collision, but they 
will have no knowledge of what action the supreme leader took regarding this 
information.  Surviving witnesses may report that an off-world ship did 
arrive recently at the starport near the capitol, and then leave shortly 
before the comet fragments impacted, but none of them will have any idea who 
it was or where this ship went after departing.  The nuclear scientists will 
say they received valid orders to hastily assemble the devices and turn them 
over to the military weapons team, but they have no idea where the weapons 
went after that.  If the adventurers made video records of their activities 
then the remaining governmental organs may be persuaded that the adventurers 
did in fact contribute to the partial saving of xxxx -- provided, of course, 
that these records show the adventurers cooperating with the weapons team and 
not needing to be coerced into taking action. 

If the adventurers failed to deliver the weapons at all then the planet xxxx 
will be severely traumatized by the comet's full impact, with tremendous 
damage to the population and the biosphere.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:11:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:11:56 2002
Subject: [TML] marking
Message-ID: <a1.2b5a23c4.2a7f3862@aol.com>

Charles (CHam628781@aol.com) writes:

>Do male Aslan mark their territory?
>

Yes, but with a fence, axe, or plasma gun...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:19:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:19:04 2002
Subject: [TML] adventure
Message-ID: <memo.604253@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <1ac.6380721.2a7f37b7@aol.com>
Nice :-)

Keep it up.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <006801c23c1f$2c8101a0$195d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <B9732F75.68182%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/4/02 6:10 PM, Alan Bradley at abradley1@bigpond.com wrote:

>=20
> I wouldn't underestimate the frequency of PTSD among WWI and WWII vets. I=
've
> spent quite a bit of time talking to widows of WWII vets, and quite a lot=
 of
> them have horror stories of how their husbands would sometimes lose the
> plot.
>=20
> The POWs seem to have had the most problems, of course. This seems to be
> true even when they were held by the Germans and Italians, rather than by
> the Japanese.
>=20
> As for WWI, well, let's just say that Australia started having a bit of a
> drug problem after 1918.

True.  There was battle fatigue and shell shock.  Many of these cases laste=
d
well beyond the war.  Actor Charles Durning, who served as an Army Ranger
and participated in both the D-Day landings and the battle of the bulged ha=
s
said that he continues to have nightmares about his military service to thi=
s
day.  There are, of course, numerous examples from both world wars and Kore=
a
of what we would now call PTSD.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:24:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:24:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Yes PM
In-Reply-To: <B96B1B3E.66A00%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20804.182449.3P9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 7/29/02 4:11 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>
>> 
>> Or let it burn up in a planetary atmosphere (though getting away with
>> that requires a low tech planet without much in the way of orbital
>> survielance.
>
> How big a signature would a body have?  Just another meterorite?

One that parted company with a ship entering or leaving orbit.

At the very least, you'd get a fine for trash dumping if it was
noticed. 

In low orbit *we* track stuff down to marble size. 

Since "ballistic entry" of "stealthed" packages would be a great way to
smuggle relatively rugged items, ships would get a lot of monitoring on
approach to any planet that cares about smuggling.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:25:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:25:33 2002
Subject: UFO TV Series [was: Re: [TML] Sub-FTL Travel in MT]
In-Reply-To: <B96B2C17.66A13%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20804.182951.3v1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 7/29/02 4:16 PM, George A. Boyett at gboyett@msn.com wrote:
>
>> I'm 36 and I remember that series.
>
> I'm 39. 
>> 
>> One thing I can't remember is the name of the organization that fought
>> the aliens.
>
> SHADO

Supreme
Headquarters
Alien
Defence
Organization

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:26:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:26:47 2002
Subject: [TML] getting rid of a body (was Re: Yes PM)
In-Reply-To: <3D45F676.C97C7157@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20804.190552.6d6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>
>> At 05:04 PM 7/29/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>>
>> >A good high-fire kiln, for firing porcelain, e.g., gets up to about
>> >3,000F if I recall correctly.  That shouldn't leave anything of a
>> >body but ash.  I think the DNA will be completely unrecoverable --
>> >but I hope that those of you who know will speak up (both sides in my
>> >current campaign might want to know).  My art school friends and I
>> >used to think that that was probably the best way to get rid of a
>> >body at TL 7.
>>
>
> If your planet is so equiped, i would think a volcano would be a great
> low-tech body disposal resource.

As long as it's a Kileaua(sp) type that has lots of nice *fluid* lava.
The sort we have on the West Coast are pretty much useless for that
sort of thing.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:27:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:27:59 2002
Subject: [TML] getting rid of a body (was Re: Yes PM)
In-Reply-To: <20020730000444.42371.qmail@web20415.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20804.185754.8D0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Yes PM
>>Both the wood chipper and pig methods have been used in cases where 
>>the forensics people *were* able to recover enough evidence to ID
> the
>>remains as human and get a DNA ID.
>
> [deletion]
>
>>For Traveller, it's going to be hard to beat this:
>
> [deletion]
>
>>Using pure oxygen, the body would likely burn weel. And hot. But
> this
>>is apt to be impractical. If you've got HEPlaR, then you can just
>>vaporize the body. 
>>
>>Or you could just dump it out the lock in jump. 
>>
>>Or let it burn up in a planetary atmosphere (though getting away
> with
>>that requires a low tech planet without much in the way of orbital
>>survielance.
>
> A good high-fire kiln, for firing porcelain, e.g., gets up to about
> 3,000F if I recall correctly.  That shouldn't leave anything of a
> body but ash.  I think the DNA will be completely unrecoverable --
> but I hope that those of you who know will speak up (both sides in my
> current campaign might want to know).  My art school friends and I
> used to think that that was probably the best way to get rid of a
> body at TL 7.  

Next time you have access to one, toss in a pound of meat. Including
fresh bone. 

It'll take a long time and produce a *lot* of smoke. And what I'm told
is a *very* distinct odor. 

As well as depositing soot and other things all over the place.

And teeth, being damn near porcelian already, will take a long time to
calcine. The ends of the thigh bones are pretty durable as well.

> Now at Traveller tech levels, you can make a body disappear
> completely by dumping it into a star or into jump space.  Even
> putting it into a cometary orbit should make it impossible to find
> without specific information.  I should think that a body dropped
> into a gas giant's atmosphere would be impossible to find, too.

Putting it into a cometary orbit requires being unobserved. 

> All of the foregoing options assume access to a starship or at least
> a small craft.  What about the lower-echelon wise guy, who only has a
> grav speeder?  How about someplace where they melt metal?

They'll be more than a little upset at all the impurities in the melt. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] getting rid of a body (was Re: Yes PM)
In-Reply-To: <p05111710b96c7691308f@[192.168.0.2]>
Message-ID: <20804.190929.3R3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 5:04 PM -0700 7/29/02, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>
>>Now at Traveller tech levels, you can make a body disappear
>>completely by dumping it into a star or into jump space.  Even
>>putting it into a cometary orbit should make it impossible to find
>>without specific information.  I should think that a body dropped
>>into a gas giant's atmosphere would be impossible to find, too.
>
>         I think the trick with dumping a body into a star or large 
> planet is making sure you have the oribital mechanics right so it 
> actually goes into the target body and not into orbit.  OTOH, if 
> you're dealing with dumping a body in space, maybe it's enough to 
> just give the body enough velocity out your airlock in an empty 
> direction.  Chances are, it'll never be found anyway.

There are a *lot* of folks in jail after putting bodies in places where
the chances were that said bodies would never be found.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:34:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:34:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Warghame ----> Nightmare?
Message-ID: <194.af51b03.2a7f3c97@aol.com>

>But seriously, the comm delay and limited intelligence turned a wargame into
>a nightmare.

Commo delays and limited intelligence are half the fun of a decent wargame. I 
love large, multiplayer exercises -- the umpires don't have to insert the 
"fog of war" because the players provide it themselves!

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:38:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:38:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020804232303.7408.33320.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <006701c23c1f$2baff600$195d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <033401c23c28$9dc0c590$7400a8c0@matt>

Alan Bradley wrote:
>> From: Mark Urbin
>> At 08:19 AM 8/5/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>>> richard honeycutt wrote:
>>>>       How many dinky airless rockballs with large populations do
>>>> the world generation rules permit?
>>> What does that matter?  They obviously don't need trade for
>>> survival. It's not like they'll starve if you isolate them.
>>
>> On what do you base that on?
>
> I believe he was being sarcastic.
>
> Mind you, I suspect many rockballs would have extensive greenhouses.
> They wouldn't necessarily live on imports and Soylent Green.
>
> At least, if _I_ was planning a rockball colony, they would have
> extensive greenhouses.

And I dare say they did...

Unfortunately in the TNE setting Virus comes along and takes over, opening
airlocks etc or otherwise playing with the lifesupport. Greenhouses exposed
to vacuum, or that have pure oxygen passed into them and a spark ignited
don't tend to be overly productive... Or it plays grav pong along the access
corridors to the greenhouses... lovely food that you can't get to...

etc

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:43:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:43:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <006701c23c1f$2baff600$195d8690@computer>
References: <20020804232303.7408.33320.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804223247.0237e008@192.168.0.1>

At 11:01 AM 8/5/2002 +1000, Alan Bradley wrote:
> > From: Mark Urbin
> > At 08:19 AM 8/5/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
> > >richard honeycutt wrote:
> > > >       How many dinky airless rockballs with large populations do the
> > > > world generation rules permit?
> > >What does that matter?  They obviously don't need trade for survival.
> > >It's not like they'll starve if you isolate them.
> > On what do you base that on?
>I believe he was being sarcastic.

I don't think he was.

>Mind you, I suspect many rockballs would have extensive greenhouses. They
>wouldn't necessarily live on imports and Soylent Green.
>At least, if _I_ was planning a rockball colony, they would have extensive
>greenhouses.

So would I.  Now, your rockball is on a trade route.  A jump away is a nice 
size 7 planet with a standard atmosphere, and plenty of water.
They have amber fields of grain, huge herds of groats, and a wide variety 
of various fresh foods.
They don't like strip mining, you like reasonably fresh beef...
Keep this trade cycle up for a few hundred years.

It will be the wackos waiting for the world to end who demand that 100% of 
all needed foodstuffs be grown locally.
Everybody sane knows that tons of fresh food arrive every week...
Ya, that algae is good for you, but it tastes funny and turns everything green!

The supply ships stop coming...and you're only producing enough food 
locally to feed 50-60% of the population.
Even if the local leaders have the will to implement rationing, are they 
able to enforce it?


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"This has the characteristic look and feel of a complete fiasco."
                 http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:45:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:45:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Landgrab Vilis
Message-ID: <3D4DE550.CE9DD052@mail.cswnet.com>

Alright! Welcome to the neighborhood. I've been pushing the border
worlds hard hoping people would snag'em. About Garda-Vilis: I seem to
think someone grabed it somewhere along the way, but the landgrab
website does'nt show it. I'd snag'em both immediatly and see if anyone
objects. It wouldnt hurt to try anyway [shrug].

Some of your Imperial neighbors [within 6 parsecs]:
Ficant/Vilis        A. M-Vallance
Saurus/Vilis        Iain Williams
Tavonni/Vilis       David Jaques-Watson
Zeta 2/Vilis        Jason Barnabas
and of course, me:
Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:47:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:47:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: meduim navies
Message-ID: <OFAB92C96B.2F360646-ONCA256C0C.000E60F9@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Dan wrote:
>I seperated it
>because I deemed that income coming from Shionthy would be in the form
>of collected CT-Shards, which would not go to local Imperial forces but
>rather get sent off to an appropriate depot and/or research station.

No, no, no, _Marc_ is receiving income from sending out _his_ collected CT 
shards - Oh! I see what you meant.

;-)  ;-)

(There's that razor-sharp wit again - must be Monday!)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] getting rid of a body (was Re: Yes PM)
Message-ID: <200208050251.MBX00823@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson says
<snip the drawbacks of the various ways>
I still think my method of lime, sulfur, and water works 
rather well - I remember the demonstration we received with a 
pig carcass - the bones and teeth were gone after a week 
underground with the mixture.

If you're lucky, and you work near a steel mill, there are 
tanks where they recycle the sulfuric acid - they keep it at 
about 18 M.  Drop someone in that (watch the splash) and 
there won't be anything left.  The recycling process will 
take care of the impurities.

In the various Traveller campaigns I played in, the 
characters invariably ended up with some sort of Italian 
firign squad situation aboard ship.  Provided that the pilot, 
navigator, and engineer weren't greased in this display of un-
intelligence, the resulting bodies (and often, the protesting 
wounded) were blown out of the airlock in jump space.  
Sometimes, people killed aboard ship while in port were 
stuffed into the freezer or low berth until they could be 
disposed of.

One crew had this happen with such regularity that a low 
berth was permanently rigged to show low level life signs, in 
case a customs official was suspicious about the person 
inside.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 21:02:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 20:02:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Landgrab Vilis
In-Reply-To: <3D4DE550.CE9DD052@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804225914.02142128@192.168.0.1>

If John doesn't mind, I could do Garda-Vilis.
Filling in details around his outlines or vice-versa.

At 09:39 PM 8/4/2002 -0500, Roseberry wrote:
>Alright! Welcome to the neighborhood. I've been pushing the border
>worlds hard hoping people would snag'em. About Garda-Vilis: I seem to
>think someone grabed it somewhere along the way, but the landgrab
>website does'nt show it. I'd snag'em both immediatly and see if anyone
>objects. It wouldnt hurt to try anyway [shrug].
>
>Some of your Imperial neighbors [within 6 parsecs]:
>Ficant/Vilis        A. M-Vallance
>Saurus/Vilis        Iain Williams
>Tavonni/Vilis       David Jaques-Watson
>Zeta 2/Vilis        Jason Barnabas
>and of course, me:
>Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 21:04:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 20:04:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
Message-ID: <138.1260f901.2a7f16a9@cs.com>

--part1_138.1260f901.2a7f16a9_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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In a message dated 8/4/02 12:11:08 AM Central Daylight Time, 
res053z0@gten.net writes:


> (Doug says, 'Who is Richard Tucholka?' )
> 
> Stalking the Night Fantastic, Fringeworthy, FTL 2448
> 
> 

Speaking of which, does anyone know where I might find a good-condition copy 
of FTL:2448? I've looked all over the place, both online and in RL and I've 
never been able to find anything. I've got everything else TriTac's put out 
and I'm wanting to complete my collection.

Simon Jester
Damage169@cs.com

--part1_138.1260f901.2a7f16a9_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 8/4/02 12:11:08 AM Central Daylight Time, res053z0@gten.net writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">(Doug says, 'Who is Richard Tucholka?' )
<BR>
<BR>Stalking the Night Fantastic, Fringeworthy, FTL 2448
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>Speaking of which, does anyone know where I might find a good-condition copy of FTL:2448? I've looked all over the place, both online and in RL and I've never been able to find anything. I've got everything else TriTac's put out and I'm wanting to complete my collection.
<BR>
<BR>Simon Jester
<BR>Damage169@cs.com</FONT></HTML>

--part1_138.1260f901.2a7f16a9_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 21:05:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 20:05:50 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
Message-ID: <OF835496FC.46D80DAC-ONCA256C0C.000EC80C@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Robert spammed us with:
>"Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com> writes:
> 
>> So does SPAM survive the Rule of Man, the Long Night and into the
>> Third Imperium?
>
>It no longer is manufactures, but reserves of SPAM still exist.  The
>stuff lasts forever, you know...

I have it on good authority that the various shelters constructed by the 
Octagon Society were made out of old Spam tins - y'know, emergency 
supplies for stranded travellers, get it?

Why do you think those guys were so pleased to find that Ancients base on 
Fulacin - for the food! To say nothing of explaining that execrable 
10-volume poem - the writer had gone mad from eating too much of the same 
thing all the time!! And don't even get me started on the fact that, the 
instant someone invented Spam, Grandfather decided that humans were even 
dumber than worms and gave up on them as useful servants!!! Not to mention 
cutting himself off from the rest of the Universe!!!!

"IT'S ALL TRUE, I TELL YOU! HE TOLD ME SO LAST TIME I VISITED HIS POCKET 
DIMENSIO-" <whack! jab! bind!> "mmph, mmph!" <struggle>

"...and now, back to your regular scheduled programming (nothing to see 
here, move along)..."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 21:40:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sun Aug  4 20:40:25 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020805081803.B24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
 <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]>
 <20020805081803.B24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <p04330100b973a30616e9@[198.123.22.175]>

At 8:18 AM +1000 8/5/02, Timothy Little wrote:
>David P. Summers wrote:
>>  Missiles are very damaging.  However, they also can be intercepted.
>>  The utility of missiles depends on how many missiles you have vs how
>>  much point defense you foe has.
>
>Yes, I'd noticed that too.  In particular, the existing missiles and
>launchers can be greatly upgraded to achieve much better results
>against point defense for rather little cost.  However, given other
>comments it looks like doing so would take it even further away from
>previous versions of Traveller. :-/

I'm not sure about missles, but in fact playtest versions of 
starships had "point defense lasers" (less damage, higher rof).
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 21:55:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Sun Aug  4 20:55:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat
References: <c5.26be7ee0.2a7caa89@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4DF711.5C3C76CD@pobox.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>  >In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships which have an armor
>  >factor of 13 or less.
>
> With a fusion gun?  I'm sorry, you must be using rules I'm not familiar with.
>  I was thinking of High Guard.
> _______________________________________________

In sufficient numbers they can _mission-kill_ (i.e. render combat-ineffective)
ships which have armor 13 or less, according to HG2.

A code-5 fusion gun will hit a agility-6 ship of greater than 20kdton with a roll
of 10 on 2d6.  It penetrates code-9 sand on a 8.

Against a ship with Armor-13, one in 36 fusion gun hits will do a Weapon -1 on
the Surface Explosion table.  Enough of these, and the target vessel will have no
weapons, which will render it unable to perform its mission, hence the term
mission-kill.  The ship can still maneuver and escape.

Against Armor-11, fuel hits are possible, and the target can be disabled by loss
of fuel.

In both cases, many hits are required, but that's why it says "in sufficient
numbers".

WKH


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 21:56:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Sun Aug  4 20:56:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat
References: <c5.26be7ee0.2a7caa89@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4DF72F.D22EE3FC@pobox.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>  >In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships which have an armor
>  >factor of 13 or less.
>
> With a fusion gun?  I'm sorry, you must be using rules I'm not familiar with.
>  I was thinking of High Guard.
> _______________________________________________

In sufficient numbers they can _mission-kill_ (i.e. render combat-ineffective)
ships which have armor 13 or less, according to HG2.

A code-5 fusion gun will hit a agility-6 ship of greater than 20kdton with a roll
of 10 on 2d6.  It penetrates code-9 sand on a 8.

Against a ship with Armor-13, one in 36 fusion gun hits will do a Weapon -1 on
the Surface Explosion table.  Enough of these, and the target vessel will have no
weapons, which will render it unable to perform its mission, hence the term
mission-kill.  The ship can still maneuver and escape.

Against Armor-11, fuel hits are possible, and the target can be disabled by loss
of fuel.

In both cases, many hits are required, but that's why it says "in sufficient
numbers".

WKH


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 22:00:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Sun Aug  4 21:00:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat HULL THICKNESS LIMITATION
References: <190.ad335f8.2a7ca953@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4DF7E3.D8D36B56@pobox.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>  >HULL
>  >185.000 tons standard, 2,590.000 cubic meters, Planetoid Configuration
>
> In a Planetoid Configuration of this size the maximum thickness of the outer
> hull is 0.6 meters and likely much less.  If this ship were 185,000 tons, the
> maximum outer thickness of the outer hull would be 6.0 meters.  Yet in both
> cases they are considered to be naturally armor 3.  I think there should be a
> lower limit on allowable tonnages for Planetoid and Buffered Planetoid ships.

Perhaps this could be a house rule.  I am not aware of such a rule in HG2.

WKH


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 22:10:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 21:10:47 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020805075953.A24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
 <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <20020805075953.A24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3436.64.8.3.28.1028520584.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

> Oh.  Here was I thinking that the missiles were suboptimal and could
> have been designed better and cheaper.  For example, it is trivial to
> design a missile turret that can launch and control 20 missiles per
> combat turn, each costing less than half as much with better
> acceleration and damage.

There is always the ability to design bigger and faster missiles using
GURPS VEHICLES and the guidelines presented with TRAVELLER itself.  A
friend of mine created an inertial guided missile that removes the
explosive warhead from the missile and turned it into a kinetic kill
device.  It all depends on the choices made by the game designer as well
as the GM.  Each change you make to *your* traveller universe takes it a
little further away from the "official" traveller universe as presented in
GURPS TRAVELLER (which doesn't bother me one bit!!!)


>>  I personally do not use the GURPS STARSHIP combat rules as
>>  presented,
>
> Do you use something close, or a drastic re-write?  (Or not at all?)

What I use is based essentially on GURPS TRAVELLER and MAYDAY vector
rules.  Missiles in my games end up being really NASTY!  In my games,
fighters can move to within passive sensor range of their enemy, send
information back to a missile frigate that is outside of sensor range of
an enemy target.  The missile frigate then starts a high speed run against
the intended target and launches its missiles outside of sensor range of
an enemy ship.  Since the missiles are now separated from the ship which
has not been seen on enemy sensor screens as yet, they coast in undetected
until it is FAR too late.  In my games?  It is theoretically possible for
a missile to slam into a ship hull at speeds in excess of 90 hexes per
turn...  Do the math and see how much damage a single missile moving at 90
hexes per turn does ;)


>> nor am I pleased with rendition of the Meson weapons in the GURPS
>> TRAVELLER rule set.
>
> They do look a little icky to me too.  What bothers you most?


What bothers me most is that Meson Screens in High Guard usually had a
GOOD chance of stopping the damage *entirely*.  In GURPS TRAVELLER, Meson
screens *always* let damage through.  In HIGH GUARD, the odds of securing
a meson hit to begin with against an unscreened target is rather High
(statistically speaking).  In GURPS, the way to have a highter potential
for hitting, you increase the odds of hitting by putting out more
firepower.  In my opinion, the best way to have handled Meson weaponry
would have been to lower their effective damage, but increase its rate of
fire.  Why?

Rememember in High Guard, the higher your "letter" value of weapon versus
the letter value of the hull size - you got 1 crit hit?  Same "effect"
could be secured in a GURPS TRAVELLER game by using the higher rate of
fire aspect.  The better you roll to hit, the more hits you secure against
your target.  Thus, for me, the best way to build GURPS TRAVELLER meson
weapons is to have them do less damage, but have a higher rate of fire -
increasing their accuracy value.  A roll made by say, +6, means the ship
took what, 3 hits?  And if the ship doesn't have meson screens, three hits
are NASTY.


Oh well.  The best thing about GURPS TRAVELLER and GURPS VEHICLES - is you
can create *any* technological innovations you want for your campaign. 
You can build internally consistant weapon systems you can think of that
are presented within both TRAVELLER and GURPS VEHICLES.  You want fire and
forget Missiles for your Traveller Universe?  You can build them.  YOu
want robotic ships?  GURPS VEHICLES has rules for it.  You want to know
what the results are of a 50 lb rock tossed via a Trebuchet against a Far
Trader's hull?  GURPS VEHICLES has rules for it.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 22:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 21:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020805081803.B24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
 <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]>
 <20020805081803.B24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3688.64.8.3.28.1028521212.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

> It seems that would be a good idea if your ship needs to spend a long
> time away from resupply, but not good for actual battle capability.
> Using the full Vehicles rules, I was unable to design a craft that
> could mount enough point defense weapons to last more than a round or
> two.
>
> The other problem I noted is the short range of direct-fire weapons.
> None of the presented beams could touch anything beyond 30 hexes.
> Missiles (even the wimpy predesigned ones) can hit from 50 or so
> hexes.

What you do is build lasers whose only purpose of existance is to damage
missiles.  Build those lasers so that you have a high rate of fire.  Keep
in mind that missiles are fired upon during the point defense phase...




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 22:24:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 21:24:04 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805002239.02142128@mail.charter.net>

What is the TL of  the Imperium & the Terran Confederation in the Year 1000 
setting of T20?



-----------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Whether you're Bill Clinton or the head of a large
corporation like Enron, it seems the best defense
in any legal matter is to act like you just arrived
on the planet." -- Spencer F. Katt
-----------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 22:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Sun Aug  4 21:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net><m3ofclg93m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org><004301c23a04$8cdeff60$0112bd50@martinjd><m3eldhkv8o.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org><00aa01c23a5c$4f293ca0$5d0bbd50@martinjd> <m3bs8lj5c2.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> <012601c23a78$2c1d4f00$5d0bbd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3D4E00D2.3BF3156C@pobox.com>

MJ Dougherty wrote:

> >
> > Well, if you can damp inertia and can create artificial gravity, I'm
> > pretty certain that you can fake high-g effects (or rather, create
> > them).  I don't think that the physics would necessarily be all that
> > difficult; trivial, probably, for a society which has those things.
> >
>
> If you can do these things, then simulator problems I've outlined are
> greatly diminished (most of them). I don't imagine this sort of thing is
> available for $35 in a playstation game, though.

Remember the movie "The Last Starfighter", where the video game was actually
a simulation?

I could see the IN covertly running a string of "reality arcades", where
kids can come and play the latest simulator games against each other.  The
best 'players' win a visit from an IN recruiter.

WKH


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 22:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Sun Aug  4 21:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net><m3ofclg93m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org><004301c23a04$8cdeff60$0112bd50@martinjd><m3eldhkv8o.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org><00aa01c23a5c$4f293ca0$5d0bbd50@martinjd> <m3bs8lj5c2.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> <012601c23a78$2c1d4f00$5d0bbd50@martinjd> <3D4E00D2.3BF3156C@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <00ed01c23c3b$7d2af720$9307b286@Shane>

Bill Hopper wrote:
> Remember the movie "The Last Starfighter", where the video game was
actually
> a simulation?
>
> I could see the IN covertly running a string of "reality arcades", where
> kids can come and play the latest simulator games against each other.  The
> best 'players' win a visit from an IN recruiter.

Though for optimum testing conditions, parts of the video game arcade should
periodically explode, catch fire and/or depressurize during the games.
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- IN Recyc System Maintenance Sim v3.0 - So real you can
smell it.
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 23:40:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 22:40:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Astronomy Boffin Question
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEKAIKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

How big can a rocky asteroid be and still be irregular?

_______________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 02:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 01:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Warghame ----> Nightmare?
Message-ID: <memo.609810@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <194.af51b03.2a7f3c97@aol.com>
> >But seriously, the comm delay and limited intelligence turned a 
> wargame into
> >a nightmare.
> 
> Commo delays and limited intelligence are half the fun of a decent 
> wargame. I love large, multiplayer exercises -- the umpires don't have 
> to insert the "fog of war" because the players provide it themselves!

It's the only kind of wargame I enjoy...

I remember a very good one with 4 teams, each in separate rooms with maps 
& radios, plus an umpire team. 2 teams on each side... but the radios were 
on a common frequency! We were allowed to use runners as well, but only to 
the umpires, not to the other team on our side (we could send them written 
messages, but via the umpires which meant they were often garbled or not 
delivered). 

Then one of us realised that the other team on our side was in the room 
next door... so we hung out the window and passed messages that way :-)

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 03:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 02:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat
Message-ID: <d1.1c5d7500.2a7f99af@aol.com>

 >>  >In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships which have an armor
 >>  >factor of 13 or less.
 >>
 >> With a fusion gun?  I'm sorry, you must be using rules I'm not familiar 
with.
 >>  I was thinking of High Guard.
 >> _______________________________________________
 >
 >In sufficient numbers they can _mission-kill_ (i.e. render 
combat-ineffective)
 >ships which have armor 13 or less, according to HG2.
 >
 >A code-5 fusion gun will hit a agility-6 ship of greater than 20kdton with 
a roll
 >of 10 on 2d6.  It penetrates code-9 sand on a 8.
 >
 >Against a ship with Armor-13, one in 36 fusion gun hits will do a Weapon -1 
on
 >the Surface Explosion table.  Enough of these, and the target vessel will 
have no
 >weapons, which will render it unable to perform its mission, hence the term
 >mission-kill.  The ship can still maneuver and escape.

My tables say a factor 5 fusion gun will hit a 20kton AG6 ship on a roll of 
(6 base + 6 agility - 1 size = ) 11+.  Yeah, I see your point, though I would 
take repairs into account.  But I think a capital ship has armor 15.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 03:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 02:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804192145.024cac00@192.168.0.1>
References: <02080313391901.00601@linux> <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020804192145.024cac00@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020805191412.A25687@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> At 08:19 AM 8/5/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
> >What does that matter?  They obviously don't need trade for survival.
> >It's not like they'll starve if you isolate them.
> 
> On what do you base that on?

The fact that high-pop worlds (including airless rockballs) have very
little trade compared to their population.  If they relied on external
trade for food they would all have starved to death long ago.

Look at Kwai Ching, for example (as one you should be familiar with :)
Its per-capita imports from all the other systems in the subsector
combined are about 0.8 Cr/week.  Whatever the population is eating
every day, it isn't imported food.  Kwai Ching actually has
significantly more than the median per-capita trade for high-pop
vacuum worlds.

Obviously most of them (probably all) have local means of production.
They may import some luxury foods (who doesn't?), but certainly not
staples.  This is not surprising -- the level of technology required
to grow food plants and animals is not exactly excessive or costly,
and the side-benefits include the ability to recycle your organic
wastes, air and water.  That's much better than importing food at a
large markup.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 03:30:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 02:30:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Junk in space
In-Reply-To: <20804.181110.0M6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020730104900.B2820@freeman.little-possums.net> <20804.181110.0M6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020805192941.B25687@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Somehow, I doubt that the speed of sound in starship hull material is
> 20 km/sec!

I used 1 MJ as a *maximum* energy, for a 30-gram object travelling at
10 km/s.  If you want to drop the mass to 5 grams, drop the energy to
250 kJ.

And yes, I expect the speed of sound in starship hull material to be
no less than 20 km/s.

Hull armour is known to be both extremely rigid *and* requires a lot
of energy to penetrate.  Note that some existing materials already
exceed 15 km/s, and materials in the Far Future are likely to be even
more so.  I would not rule out 40+ km/s for lightweight TL12 armour.


> Are you going to dodge? Or try to blow it up?

Either would be easy.  Let the ship's captain decide.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 03:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 02:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <006701c23c1f$2baff600$195d8690@computer>
References: <20020804232303.7408.33320.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <006701c23c1f$2baff600$195d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <20020805193038.C25687@freeman.little-possums.net>

Alan Bradley wrote:
> I believe he was being sarcastic.

No, quite serious.


> At least, if _I_ was planning a rockball colony, they would have
> extensive greenhouses.

Given trade figures in Traveller, they do.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 03:42:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Mon Aug  5 02:42:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <181.c196c70.2a7ed4f5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPAEBKEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

It is canon, Traveller has whopping big fleet carriers (not to mention the
Tigress class BBs) which carry huge number of fighters.

The imperium obviously believes they have a need for large numbers of
fighters. AFAIK carrier squadrons are equated with cruiser squadrons (see
Fighting Ships) and presumably carry out some of the same missions. Commerce
raiding is possible but would you need a fleet carrier for that?

So given that carrier squadrons exist if they are totally useless against
other cruiser squadrons what would they be used for. I submit it could also
mean that point defence systems are not as good as the navy would have us
believe.

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 04:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Freelance Traveller)
Date: Mon Aug  5 03:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] [www] 5 Aug 2002 - Freelance Traveller NOT Updated :(
Message-ID: <o7jsku0jgg9j6krr0eajhh6hu0q40eqjoc@4ax.com>

Due to an unexpected confluence of factors, mostly involving the effect of
weather on human activities (we lost power Friday evening when a tree took
down some wires down the block during the storm, and I spent most of
Saturday recovering from a fifteen-hour outage), I haven't been able to get
an update together for this week.  However, if I can survive this week at
work, and if we don't get another frog-drowner of a storm that kills power,
I'll post an update this coming weekend, and, if I'm lucky, a *really*
*massive* update a week later - I have the intervening week as vacation!

Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture 
Enterprises, 1977-2000.  Use of the trademark in 
this notice and in the referenced materials is not 
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.freelancetraveller.com
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
editor@freelancetraveller.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 04:21:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 03:21:08 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller - more
In-Reply-To: <186.b850971.2a77a260@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20805.002325.7j9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>  >The W-71 
>  >thermonuclear device had a yield of 5 megatons.  I feel it's 
>  >fair to put the typical Traveller missile in this yield range.
>
> no, it's not.  that's huge.  as I understand it the united states doesn't 
> even have weapons that large in its inventory anymore -- they're all in the 
> 10 to 100 kton range.
>
> consider a ship with 10 missile bays.  at 30 missiles per salvo, 100 salvos 
> per bay, 10 bays, that's 30,000 weapons.  I think that that's more than the 
> entire present world inventory, on one dinky ship.  that's a lot of 
> fissionable material, and it all has a shelf-life, and each warhead has to 
> fit onto a relatively small missile.  five megs is too much.

Actually, given some of the other tech, the weapons could be fusion
warheads that don't *need* a fission trigger.

>>As for nuclear weapons effects in space, the Project Orion 
>>ship was using fairly "small" yields at a distance of several 
>>hundred meters from the pusher plate, that was high strength 
>>steel with another material for a coating.  Too close, and 
>>even the small bomb would vaporize the pusher plate.
>
> well then it sounds like nuclear weapons are all anyone would need or want, 
> because no ship could withstand them.  unless, of course, as someone said 
> elsewhere in this packet, "by tech 12 or 13 they darn well ought to have 
> solved that problem".

The problem is that given anti-missile lasers, you aren't going to get
a nuke that *close*.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 04:23:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 03:23:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804223247.0237e008@192.168.0.1>
References: <20020804232303.7408.33320.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <006701c23c1f$2baff600$195d8690@computer> <5.1.0.14.0.20020804223247.0237e008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020805202103.D25687@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> The supply ships stop coming...and you're only producing enough food
> locally to feed 50-60% of the population.

If you can find a high-pop world that has enough trade to feed just a
tenth of its population, even if it was importing nothing but food, I
will be surprised.

Most of them don't import enough to account for even 2% of their food
requirements, still assuming that they import nothing but food.

A 40-50% local shortfall is unsupportable by a factor of 30 or so.  It
is much more likely that most of them are producing amply enough to
feed their population.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 04:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Aug  5 03:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805002239.02142128@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <005401c23c6c$91137060$be09bd50@martinjd>

> What is the TL of  the Imperium & the Terran Confederation in the Year
1000
> setting of T20?

The Impeirum is TL 14 mostly, with Tl 15 just creeping in over the last few
years.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 04:32:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Aug  5 03:32:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Warghame ----> Nightmare?
References: <194.af51b03.2a7f3c97@aol.com>
Message-ID: <007601c23c6c$bec65a40$be09bd50@martinjd>

> >But seriously, the comm delay and limited intelligence turned a wargame
into
> >a nightmare.
>
> Commo delays and limited intelligence are half the fun of a decent
wargame. I
> love large, multiplayer exercises -- the umpires don't have to insert the
> "fog of war" because the players provide it themselves!
>

OUrs certainly did. This Nightmare was the best fun wargame I've ever
played, BTW.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 04:33:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Aug  5 03:33:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020804173620.8351.57196.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <006901c23c1f$2dd85440$195d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <008901c23c6c$e2004c00$be09bd50@martinjd>

>
> Hmm. I've always wanted to run an Arbellatra vs Gustus game. Maybe I
should
> actually do it.

You should. Then I can play


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 05:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Aug  5 04:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat
In-Reply-To: <d1.1c5d7500.2a7f99af@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4F04E9.7899.17C7EF@localhost>

On 5 Aug 2002 at 5:04, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> My tables say a factor 5 fusion gun will hit a 20kton AG6 ship on a
> roll of (6 base + 6 agility - 1 size = ) 11+.  Yeah, I see your
> point, though I would take repairs into account.  But I think a
> capital ship has armor 15. 

Armour 15 is only legal for planetoids and buffered planetoids until 
TL15, remember.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 05:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 04:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <3436.64.8.3.28.1028520584.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com> <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net> <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <20020805075953.A24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <3436.64.8.3.28.1028520584.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020805215043.E25687@freeman.little-possums.net>

hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> There is always the ability to design bigger and faster missiles using
> GURPS VEHICLES and the guidelines presented with TRAVELLER itself.

Yes, that's what I'm wondering about.  Do I want to design better
weapons and tactics for my Traveller game, at the expense of making it
less like Traveller?  Or do I try to rationalise the existing ones to
maintain compatibility with what other people have done?


>  A friend of mine created an inertial guided missile that removes
> the explosive warhead from the missile and turned it into a kinetic
> kill device.

Yes; either remove the chemical warhead or replace it with a fusion
warhead.  A chemical explosive makes little sense.  Even the standard
missiles accelerate to 72 km/s in the first round -- putting a
chemical explosive in them is a bit like putting a spring-loaded
boxing glove on an anti-tank penetrator.


> The missile frigate then starts a high speed run against the
> intended target and launches its missiles outside of sensor range of
> an enemy ship.

That works under the standard rules, too.  I've had vague thoughts in
the same direction, but didn't actually get round to testing them.


> Do the math and see how much damage a single missile moving at 90
> hexes per turn does ;)

Yes, I know.  Kinetic energy *kills*.  Give the missiles better
thrusters and an extra-heavy frame for even more (unnecessary) damage
with less run-up required.  You could even put a bunch of them on a
bus chassis so they can all share a power plant for the initial boost,
and make the individual energy banks much smaller.


> What bothers me most is that Meson Screens in High Guard usually had a
> GOOD chance of stopping the damage *entirely*.  In GURPS TRAVELLER, Meson
> screens *always* let damage through.

??  Not as I read it.

A 100k-dton ship with 7000 meson screen modules has a maximum DR vs
meson guns of about 180000.  Usually the operator will manage to
succeed on their roll by 4 and get half that, 90000.

A spinal meson gun typically does between 60000-87000 damage, so it
will usually only penetrate if the operator doesn't perform well.

It is not true that damage *always* gets through.  Granted, that is a
*lot* of shielding; 7% screens by volume.  It is protecting against
the biggest weapon in the basic book, though!


> Thus, for me, the best way to build GURPS TRAVELLER meson weapons is
> to have them do less damage, but have a higher rate of fire -
> increasing their accuracy value.

Yes, this might have been better.


> Oh well.  The best thing about GURPS TRAVELLER and GURPS VEHICLES - is you
> can create *any* technological innovations you want for your campaign. 

Yes, I quite enjoy this part.  I just have to keep reminding myself to
tone things down from the standard GURPS tech level assumptions, or I
will very rapidly find myself unable to steal other people's ideas for
my now ex-Traveller game :)


> You want to know what the results are of a 50 lb rock tossed via a
> Trebuchet against a Far Trader's hull?  GURPS VEHICLES has rules for
> it.

Yes, this sort of very wide scope is what I like best about GURPS in
general.  Given Traveller's range of planetary tech levels, this might
easily come up in a game!


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 05:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 04:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Landgrab Vilis
Message-ID: <200208051155.MCP01180@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mark Urbin says
>If John doesn't mind, I could do Garda-Vilis.
>Filling in details around his outlines or vice-versa.

Sounds OK. I seem to remember some adventure that took place 
on Garda-Vilis, and it mentions Vilis as well, so I'm going 
to have to take a look at that.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 06:03:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shadowcat)
Date: Mon Aug  5 05:03:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Large Scale Games, One Traveller, one WW3[Long]
In-Reply-To: <194.af51b03.2a7f3c97@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4E1A82.455.14DD3F@localhost>

couple of examples come to mind from the distant past, one of 
which was actually part of the playtesting for the Combined Arms 
Command Decision Rules.

many years ago, GDW along with the Central Illinois Tabletop 
Warrriors ran a couple of megagames which were part of the 
Wilderness Project, the first was the wilderness campaign from the 
American Civil War, and the second, a year later roughly, was the 
first day of WW3 based along the lines of Red Storm Rising. these 
games took place in a classroom building at the University of 
Illinois and involved dozens of players and judges. communications 
lag, fog of war and just general confusion, along with assorted rules 
problems best left for another forum, made for an interesting day.

The second game was a traveller game at a previous Winter Wars 
a couple of years after the historic Shadows tournament, which 
was called Diplomatic Mission. This was a 6 hour game with 24 
players that dealt with the reopening of trade to a redzoned world.
One Team was the on planet contact team, the other team was the 
bureaucrats and nobles who had to make the final decisions based 
on the information they were getting from the planet. the off planet 
team was a jump away, and this was represented by a 15 minute 
time lag. each team had different objectives, and each player had 
personal objectives and goals, so not everyone was working 
together or even on the same side actually.

This game lasted 6 very hectic hours, and had a grand total of 2 die 
rolls, the contact teams psi expert was revealed as a spy, and the 
teams security officer executed him on the spot pretty much.

I have seriously considered reconstructing the aspects of this 
game for another convention, or even as an IRC game, but there 
are too many problems for it to work as an IRC game.






From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 06:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 05:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <3688.64.8.3.28.1028521212.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com> <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net> <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]> <20020805081803.B24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <3688.64.8.3.28.1028521212.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020805221551.F25687@freeman.little-possums.net>

hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> What you do is build lasers whose only purpose of existance is to
> damage missiles.  Build those lasers so that you have a high rate of
> fire.

High RoF doesn't do a lot.  It just counts as a bonus to hit in the
combat system.  e.g. Multiplying the RoF by 16 gives you +4 bonus.
This would mean 2 extra hits per shot, except:

For the same volume requirement, your weapon has to use about 10 times
less energy per shot.  That cuts the damage by a factor of about 3,
which doesn't matter a lot against the standard missiles.  It will
however reduce your range by a factor of 3 -- not a problem, you say,
because you only need less than a hex?  Range directly determines
accuracy, which will thus drop by 3.

The net effect is a +1 to hit.  You're almost back where you started,
except that now your weapon is greatly restricted in its utility for
any other role.

I've been along that route :-/


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 06:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 05:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
Message-ID: <2da64f2ddca2.2ddca22da64f@us.army.mil>

----- Original Message -----
From: Hunter Gordon <trav@RPGRealms.com>
Date: Sunday, August 4, 2002 11:45 am
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)

> 
> On 8/4/2002 at 4:21 PM Antony Farrell wrote:
> 
> >Was that spam and eggs
> >or spam, spam egs and spam?
> 
> Ok gotta keep it on topic!
> 
> Pardons if this has actually been covered previously.
> 
> So does SPAM survive the Rule of Man, the Long Night and into the 
> Third Imperium? If so, is it just a Solomani thing, or have the 
> Vilani and others come to enjoy this uniquely Terran... ummm .... 
> stuff? I'm just picturing a group of adventurers finding an old 
> Rule of Man cache, stockpiled with cans of good old SPAM!

Ah, you should have saved that question for a Newbie Essay [tm]! ;-)

Actually, it's quite plausible that SPAM was a significant factor in the 
Solomanification of former Vilani worlds.  To wit:

1.  SPAM would likely be included in relief aid to former Vilani worlds 
ravaged by Terran-introduced pandemics.
2.  Given that SPAM does not require processing by shugiili, and that 
SPAM has a relatively long shelf life ("long" in a geological sense, 
that is), it would go far in breaking the power of the shugiili in 
Vilani society.
3.  Add to these factors the relative conservatism of Vilani culture and 
you find that, once SPAM was introduced on former Vilani-ruled worlds, 
it tended to remain a staple of the diet on those worlds, thus ensuring 
that SPAM would continue to be consumed (if not necessarily enjoyed) up 
into M:1100.
4.  Until such time as the fine folks at Hormel licensed the production 
of SPAM on worlds other than Earth, the Terrans would be the only source 
of this staple, thus economically binding the former Vilani worlds 
closer to Terra.  Even after SPAM production began on worlds other than 
Earth, genuine Terran SPAM was held to be superior, commanding premium 
prices.  This coopted Sharushiid into the ruling SPAM consortium.
5.  We can thus also see that the Solomani Rim War, with its focus on 
the capture of Terra, was driven by the desire to control the original 
point source of SPAM.

QED. ;-)

Hmmm.  Perhaps I should write up Hormel Foods as a megacorp using the 
Universal Corporate Profile from _101 Corporations_....



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 06:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 05:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <2e4d282e3963.2e39632e4d28@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Date: Sunday, August 4, 2002 3:26 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller


<<snip>>
> > 
> > Army?  What army?
> 
> I'll believe that when I see it. This sort of talking has always 
> turned 
> out to be wishful thinking in the past, and I see no reason why it 
> isn't now. It's all very well while you're thrashing low-tech 
> thrid-
> worlders, but sooner or later there'll be another first-world vs 
> first-
> world scrap, and spec ops teams relying on vast amounts of support 
> just 
> won't cut it.
> 
I refer readers to the Fehrenbach quote the opens Chapter 1 of GT:GF.  
Words to the effect of (quoted from memory):

You may fly over a land forever; you may bomb it, atomize it, sterilize 
it and wipe it clean of life; but if you wish to defend it for 
civilization, you must do this the way the Romans did, by putting your 
young men into the mud.

ObTrav:  1: The quote was used in a Trav book.  2: The eternal Trav 
debate of "why an Army"?  


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 06:56:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 05:56:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020805191412.A25687@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804192145.024cac00@192.168.0.1>
 <02080313391901.00601@linux>
 <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
 <02080313391901.00601@linux>
 <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020804192145.024cac00@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805084630.018ca4e0@192.168.0.1>

At 07:14 PM 8/5/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
> > At 08:19 AM 8/5/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
> > >What does that matter?  They obviously don't need trade for survival.
> > >It's not like they'll starve if you isolate them.
> > On what do you base that on?
>The fact that high-pop worlds (including airless rockballs) have very
>little trade compared to their population.  If they relied on external
>trade for food they would all have starved to death long ago.

That would depend on what they have to trade and what planets are 
convenient trading partners.
It's not a bad rule of thumb though.

>Look at Kwai Ching, for example (as one you should be familiar with :)
>Its per-capita imports from all the other systems in the subsector
>combined are about 0.8 Cr/week.  Whatever the population is eating
>every day, it isn't imported food.  Kwai Ching actually has
>significantly more than the median per-capita trade for high-pop
>vacuum worlds.

Kwai Ching is an interesting example.  They really have no choice but to 
produce the majority, if not all of their food.
They are not part of an established trading federation, and their imports 
are spotty at best due to ethically challenged merchant activity.
(that's according to GT: Behind the Claw, and the example Tim is using.)

>Obviously most of them (probably all) have local means of production.
>They may import some luxury foods (who doesn't?), but certainly not
>staples.  This is not surprising -- the level of technology required
>to grow food plants and animals is not exactly excessive or costly,
>and the side-benefits include the ability to recycle your organic
>wastes, air and water.  That's much better than importing food at a
>large markup.

To produce a variety of food that would keep a large population happy 
requires a large amount of space, water and energy.
If you have a very strict government, you can enforce a limited diet (Grand 
Chairman Mao XXXIX says you should eat green
Cereal for breakfast with soy milk, green bread (with a slice of hamster 
meat if you make your quota) for lunch, and green soup for dinner).
If you have bulk traders making a regular run through the system, and there 
is an Agricultural planet on their loop, the rockball can get a wide 
variety of foodstuffs without the large markup.

If it's not economically viable to produce 100% of the food locally, why 
should they do it?



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 07:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 06:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPAEBKEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <181.c196c70.2a7ed4f5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805085604.018d7340@192.168.0.1>

At 05:30 PM 8/5/2002 +0800, Antony Farrell wrote:
>It is canon, Traveller has whopping big fleet carriers (not to mention the
>Tigress class BBs) which carry huge number of fighters.
>
>The imperium obviously believes they have a need for large numbers of
>fighters. AFAIK carrier squadrons are equated with cruiser squadrons (see
>Fighting Ships) and presumably carry out some of the same missions. Commerce
>raiding is possible but would you need a fleet carrier for that?

Aren't fighters viable against lower tech ships?
The Imperium does maintain a tech advantage over most of it's neighbors.
Especially in those smaller governments in Reavers' Deep or Spinward of the 
Marches.
Jump in system, and swarms of fighters are bloody everywhere, at least in 
the view of the locals....

Nice saber rattle, if the Imperium can put 10+ TL E-F fighters against 
every TL A-C SDB or customs cutter the locals have.

This frees up the destroyers and Cruisers to knock out any Capital ships 
and look menacing in Orbit.

>So given that carrier squadrons exist if they are totally useless against
>other cruiser squadrons what would they be used for. I submit it could also
>mean that point defence systems are not as good as the navy would have us
>believe.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 07:02:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 06:02:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Landgrab Vilis
In-Reply-To: <200208051155.MCP01180@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805090123.018d3468@192.168.0.1>

At 07:55 AM 8/5/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>Mark Urbin says
> >If John doesn't mind, I could do Garda-Vilis.
> >Filling in details around his outlines or vice-versa.
>Sounds OK. I seem to remember some adventure that took place
>on Garda-Vilis, and it mentions Vilis as well, so I'm going
>to have to take a look at that.

Broadsword.  I have a copy.




---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 07:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon Aug  5 06:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020805041046.16273.821.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <003101c23c82$2a486dc0$b35d8690@computer>

> From: Mark
> It will be the wackos waiting for the world to end who demand that 100% of
> all needed foodstuffs be grown locally.
> Everybody sane knows that tons of fresh food arrive every week...
> Ya, that algae is good for you, but it tastes funny and turns everything
> green!

First: why are you talking about algae? Algae is for fish.

Secondly, you can probably produce _more_ food than you need, and at least
some of your "agricultural land" is likely to be used as recreational areas,
as a reserve of biomass, and as supplementary life support.

Otherwise your life support systems lack redundancy.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 07:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 06:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020805202103.D25687@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804223247.0237e008@192.168.0.1>
 <20020804232303.7408.33320.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <006701c23c1f$2baff600$195d8690@computer>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020804223247.0237e008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805090845.01831e50@192.168.0.1>

At 08:21 PM 8/5/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
> > The supply ships stop coming...and you're only producing enough food
> > locally to feed 50-60% of the population.
>
>If you can find a high-pop world that has enough trade to feed just a
>tenth of its population, even if it was importing nothing but food, I
>will be surprised.

I'll have to dig through the back lists, but I remember detailed analysis 
of the CT trading rules being done years ago.
It was determined that published trade rules didn't fit the big picture.
Large bulk traders were needed in core sectors to make it work.
Some of these traders were designed and published.

>Most of them don't import enough to account for even 2% of their food
>requirements, still assuming that they import nothing but food.
>
>A 40-50% local shortfall is unsupportable by a factor of 30 or so.  It
>is much more likely that most of them are producing amply enough to
>feed their population.

I agree with you in places like the Marches, or even more frontier settings.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 07:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Aug  5 06:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: JTAS
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D00@USCHM203>

Just wanted to add my vote. JTAS is well worth the money. The archives alone
are worth many times the subscription price.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 07:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Mon Aug  5 06:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
In-Reply-To: <2da64f2ddca2.2ddca22da64f@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020805084634.00a56560@minn.net>

At 03:46 PM 8/5/2002 +0300, john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:

>4.  Until such time as the fine folks at Hormel licensed the production 
>of SPAM on worlds other than Earth, the Terrans would be the only source 
>of this staple, thus economically binding the former Vilani worlds 
>closer to Terra.  Even after SPAM production began on worlds other than 
>Earth, genuine Terran SPAM was held to be superior, commanding premium 
>prices.  This coopted Sharushiid into the ruling SPAM consortium.
>5.  We can thus also see that the Solomani Rim War, with its focus on 
>the capture of Terra, was driven by the desire to control the original 
>point source of SPAM.
>
>QED. ;-)
>
>Hmmm.  Perhaps I should write up Hormel Foods as a megacorp using the 
>Universal Corporate Profile from _101 Corporations_....

The canned chili is okay too, I usually lay a couple of slices of processed
cheese food product on top when I microsave it. 

(Across cyberspace, someone asks himself: What about processed cheese food
products in the Third Imperium?)


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 07:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 06:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
Message-ID: <200208051354.MCT02502@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leslie Bates says
>What about processed cheese food
>products in the Third Imperium?)

This is along the lines of "great cultural contributions by 
the Solomani".

Baseball
Beer
SPAM
Processed cheese product(in all its various forms)
Artificial butter flavored topping
French fries
Sliced bread
Microwave oven
Burrito
"Sports" drink (including canned sweat)
Pop music
"Shtick" (I'm sorry, I can't see a Vilani stand-up comic)

________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 08:11:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Aug  5 07:11:41 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D03@USCHM203>

Message: 2
From: sneadj@mindspring.com
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 22:16:45 -0700
>John Snead wrote:

>ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>) wrote:

>> "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> writes:
>> > 
>> > Personally, I find it hard to shed many tears for Hiroshima,
>> > Nagasaki, or Dresden.
>> 
>> I dunno--the firebombing of Dresden is IMHO one of the worst war
>> crimes committed by the US.  Esp. the bit about destroying emergency
>> vehicles...
>> 
>> That no-one was ever strung up for it is a travesty.  We're supposed
>> to be better than that.

>Agreed.  Hiroshima and Nagasaki can at least be argued as being 
>better than the alternatives (although I've heard several different 
>PoVs about how exactly necessary bombing Nagasaki was).  
>However, Dresden is an amazingly clear cut case.  It was an act of 
>terror and vengeance easily as bad as anything the other side did 
>in it's bombing of civilian targets.

You're both right, and I'm not proud of how I feel about it. It's nothing
personal against Germans as a people. My best friend's parents are from
Germany, and both his grandfathers served in the Wehrmacht. I've played
soccer for several German-American teams, and took 6 years of German
language in HS.
It's just that, knowing the barbarism committed by that regime, and having
seen more than a few older folks around town with faded tattoes on their
forearms, I sometimes think the bomb should have been dropped on Berlin or
Hamburg(yes, I know the war in Europe ended before that was possible).
As atrociously as the Japanese behaved, they never committed organized and
institutionalized genocide.
Regardless, as was said, in hindsight, and in the long run, it was probably
the wrong thing to do, and yes, we are supposed to be better than that. 
I honestly think that most of the time we are.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 08:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 07:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <200208051427.MCU00107@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Hurrel, Brian" says
<snip about how humans should be better to humans>

Yes, that's a nice sentiment.  But at what point do humans 
apply this to other sophonts?

I've read a pretty persuasive argument by Charles Pellegrino 
that outlines every reason why we should, even in the absence 
of direct contact, assume that a starfaring species, a 
species capable of manipulating the energies necessary to 
span stellar distances, is a direct apocalyptic threat to our 
existence, and that other species must make this same 
assumption about us.  The penalty for not making this 
assumption and being wrong is annihilation of your own 
species.  Even if there's a 1 in 10,000 chance you're wrong 
about the alien species' peaceful intentions, and they turn 
out to be hostile, being wrong means your species ceases to 
exist.

A ship making an interstellar crossing to our system near the 
speed of light is more of a weapon than all of our 
thermonuclear arsenal put together. (sorry - this isn't 
intended to bring up near-c rocks!).  So, are those ships we 
see coming (their antimatter rocket drive emissions will be 
quite distinctive) at near-c, are they peaceful emissaries, 
or weapons on the way.

And if we develop such rockets ourselves, and we know that it 
took us only 200 years from the advent of radio to the 
invention of the antimatter beamed-core rocket, what would we 
make of radio signals we detect from systems 20 or so light 
years away?  May we assume that the countdown has begun?

Humans have a built-in cultural inhibition against 
intraspecies murder - or else murder would be more common.  
But make it an alien species, and we won't have that 
inhibition by nature.  Any inhibition we have will come from 
intellect and not instinct.  And any restraint we have will 
be easy, perilously easy, to lose.  It will be difficult not 
to fear them by instinct.

We kill plenty of dolphins, if only by accident, and few 
humans see that as a tragic killing of a sophont.  We 
certainly don't generally see the killing of non-human 
possible sophonts as the same type of killing as a "homicide".
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 09:06:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Aug  5 08:06:42 2002
Subject: [TML] 40-year olds
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D06@USCHM203>

>From: Tod Glenn wrote:

>>> Why does the Army do this?  Because 40 year olds, as a
>>> whole, have sufficient problems that the Army knows it will
>>> lose more in attempting to incorporate them than it will
>>> gain.
>> 
>> No, no, no.  The reason the Army won't enlist you is because
>> the "useful lifetime" of the older soldier is shorter.
> 
> Well, now you are citing "the needs of the service" rather than the right
to
> serve.  I think the needs of the service should be consistently foremost.

>It should be noted that the same types of restrictions apply to other
>Federal service.  For example, you cannot apply to any federal law
>enforcement agency unless you will have enough years of service for
>retirement by age 55.  Meaning that after age 35, your too old to be an
FBI,
>DEA or ATF agent.

Unless you already have time in. If you served 4 years in the Navy(or any
service) when you were younger, you could actually join up to age 39 to have
your 20 years before 55.
I was casually looking into joining the NJ Air National Guard (because the
Corps sure as s*** isn't going to take my sorry out of shape butt back at
this age, and because I'm married, a father, and don't feel like running
around swamps anymore). I thought I would be automatically disqualified
after age 35, but my previous time in counts, so I actually have some leeway
should I decide to join.
The nice thing is I woudn't have to go to boot camp. The not-so-nice thing
is the ANG doesn't have dress blues.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 09:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Mon Aug  5 08:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: meduim navies
Message-ID: <3D4E984B.99EF2E24@mail.cswnet.com>

David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson writes:
>No, no, no, _Marc_ is receiving income from sending out _his_ >collected CT shards - Oh! I see what you meant.

Right. Shionthy [imtu] is one of those rare exceptions where the 3I gets
income from a red zone. Instead of getting its 30% in credits, it gets
the equivalent amount in CT-Shards. Note that this does not mean that
the Imperuim does not buy CT-Shards; they'll snatch everyone they can
get there hands on. But the planetary payment that Shionthy makes as a
member of the Imperuim [imtu] should be in CT-Shards.

Course thats all imtu and not landgrab...

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 09:28:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Aug  5 08:28:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Movies
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D08@USCHM203>

Regarding "accuracy" or "worthiness" of SF book to movie translations,
unless a group of die-hard fans can come up with the millions of dollars
neccessary to produce even the simplest sci-fi film, our choices are, for
the most part, going to be between "Paul Verhoeven's Starship Troopers" and
"No Starship Troopers".

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 10:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 09:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] places to get plots for adventures
Message-ID: <200208051614.MCX05321@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

just watching "Wait Until Dark".  incredibly good hook to get 
a traveller party into deep trouble
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 10:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 09:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
Message-ID: <200208051642.JAA31293@molly.iii.com>

David Shayne <daveshayne@ameritech.net> writes:
> 
>> Any clues?
>
>I couldn't find that info in any TNE source. There are charts for that
>in "World Builder's Handbook" for MT. Assuming for the moment that you
>don't have access to that very worthwhile publication I can give you
>some typical figures from that source.
>
>Smallest SGG radius = 20
>Average SGG radius ~= 60
>Highest SGG radius = 100
>
>Smallest LGG radius = 110
>Average LGG radius ~= 175
>Highest LGG radius = 240

Applying a realism check here, Jupiter, at size 88, is about the limit
for any sort of gas giant (assuming TNE size is in thousands of miles,
like CT size).
>
>Lowest GG density = .1
>Average GG density ~= .21
>Highest GG density = .3

Assuming that's g/cc, that's horribly wrong. Saturn has a density of 0.69
and is probably near the low end of possible densities; all of the other
gas giants have densities between 1 and 2.  A large gas giant, at 4x
jupiter mass and about the same diameter, would be as dense as the earth.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 10:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 09:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <20020805165054.0EF364501@mo120usjc.palm.net>

Alan Bradley <abradley1@bigpond.com> wrote:
>> From: Mark 
>> It will be the wackos waiting for the world to end who demand that 100% of 
>> all needed foodstuffs be grown locally. 
>> Everybody sane knows that tons of fresh food arrive every week... 
>> Ya, that algae is good for you, but it tastes funny and turns everything 
>> green! 
>First: why are you talking about algae? Algae is for fish. 

Spirulina. A type of blue-green algae which is very cheap to grow, is 70% protein, has required amino acids, and a wide range of required vitamins & minerals.  You can easily process it to a flour subsitute.  And o can feed it to the fish in your fish farms.
Very hard to beat in bang for buck catagory.

>Secondly, you can probably produce _more_ food than you need, and at least 
>some of your "agricultural land" is likely to be used as recreational areas, 
>as a reserve of biomass, and as supplementary life support. 

Yes, on  well run, well designed system.  How many, out on the fringes, are optimzed for profit, instead of safety or even comfort?
> 
>Otherwise your life support systems lack redundancy. 

----------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere. 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 11:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 10:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes
Message-ID: <200208051705.KAA00273@molly.iii.com>

hal@buffnet.net writes:

>Hello Folks,
>  Just a question of sorts...
>
>In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head tax" or does it charge
>an income tax on its citizens for its Imperial Budget requirements?  In
>short, if the Imperial government taxes 10% of a Gross Planetary Product,
>then it would in essence be an income tax.  If it charges a flat 500 CR
>per person on a planet, then it is a head tax.  Which is it?

It's not clear if either one is the case.  We really have only two bits of
canon to go from:

In Striker, the implication is that the imperial military tax is simply 1/3
of the planet's total military expenditure (with another 1/3 going to the
subsector fleet, so the world only keeps 1/3 for personal forces).  This
would be some sort of production tax (and, conveniently for those who want
to keep fleet sizes down, gives most planets a reason to restrict their 
military expenditures).

Our other canonical information is the 2% imperial stake in megacorps.  If
we extend this to other interstellar corporations, it's basically a 2% 
corporate income tax.

The depiction of the strength of the Imperial government is a bit 
inconsistent in Traveller materials, but all canon requires we maintain 
is the imperial military (covered by the military tax above), the scouts,
and the starports; starports would mostly pay for themselves with fees,
and might be central points for collecting the Imperium's 2% share.  In
any case, the 2% tax on interstellar corporations is probably sufficient
to pay for most of the known remaining Imperial expenditures.

Beyond this, the Imperium probably has some right to require worlds to
provide certain classes of service, which is indirectly a tax but would be
pretty much at the discretion of the local duke.

>And I find it an interesting thought here.  If the Imperium charges say,
>3% of a planet's gross planetary product for its military taxes - this tax
>is on top of the local ruler's/government's tax.  How much in the way of
>taxes can a population take before its economy begins to stagnate?

Well, that depends on how the taxes are spent; as long as the taxes are
spent locally in an efficient manner it isn't necessarily crippling to
have very high tax rates; under some circumstances (typically infrastructure)
a government can spend money more efficiently than private industry.  The
main thing that's crippling is spending tax money on things that don't grow
the economy, such as the military, though you want to keep tax rates modest
to give people a reason to work.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 11:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 10:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Sensors - too sensitive?
Message-ID: <200208051724.KAA01911@molly.iii.com>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:

>Was just reading a news blurb about a new radio telescope at 
>Green Bank.  They had some problems with local interference, 
>namely a dog's heating pad.  The pad would intermittently 
>give off bursts of radio noise.
>
>Given the tendency to want to put sensor suites on our ships 
>that can pick out the static on a party balloon at 10 million 
>kilometers, I'm wondering if there's a real limit that won't 
>be overcome by fancy algorithms or software.  If you're on 
>the surface of the Imperial Capital, and using your short 
>range communicator, and I'm trying to find you amidst the 
>cacophony of billions of similar users in an ultramodern EM 
>noisy environment, do I really stand a chance even if I'm 
>using the sensor array on a Tigress class fun machine?

Depends on your assumptions about the capability of Traveller computers;
I suspect that a lot of the Traveller sensor arrays would have problems
with being swamped with data.  Short answer is, you can probably find the
communicator if you know where to look, but if you're doing a general scan
the Tigress' noise reduction software will probably delete said 
communication as probable noise long before any human sees it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 11:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 10:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
Message-ID: <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:

>David P. Summers wrote:
>> Missiles are very damaging.  However, they also can be intercepted.
>> The utility of missiles depends on how many missiles you have vs how
>> much point defense you foe has.
>
>Yes, I'd noticed that too.  In particular, the existing missiles and
>launchers can be greatly upgraded to achieve much better results
>against point defense for rather little cost.

Of course, point defense can be greatly upgraded with fairly little 
effort to achieve much better results against missiles, so the point
may be moot.  If nothing else, a short range countermissile capable 
of taking out an incoming missile is probably less than 10% of the 
weight and cost of the incoming missile.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 12:05:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Mon Aug  5 11:05:12 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
In-Reply-To: <200208051354.MCT02502@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020805130540.00a575f0@minn.net>

At 09:54 AM 8/5/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>Leslie Bates says
>>What about processed cheese food
>>products in the Third Imperium?)

One of my landladies (the one I based the character of Dana Wolfsburg on)
flippantly said that she thought "cheese food" was something that should be
consumed by cheese beings, and that somewhere there should be a planet of
the sentient cheeses.

>This is along the lines of "great cultural contributions by 
>the Solomani".
>
>Baseball
>Beer

Pizza!

>SPAM
>Processed cheese product(in all its various forms)
>Artificial butter flavored topping
>French fries
>Sliced bread

Chocolate Chip ice cream!

>Microwave oven
>Burrito
>"Sports" drink (including canned sweat)
>Pop music
>"Shtick" (I'm sorry, I can't see a Vilani stand-up comic)

I tried to envision a Vilani Stand up comic, he was a member of the
comedian caste who would stand on the stage and recite the numbers of each
of the jokes. This of course leads to the Terrans having a practically
unassailable advantage in the field of joke warfare. (Although some Vilani
confessed to being baffled by Monty Python's Undertaker Sketch.)


Les
==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 12:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Aug  5 11:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] dangerous children
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020730204623.00a5e300@minn.net>
References: <5hbeku4e63psd36ctqa7c96oubp4h39kg7@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <3D4EDD10.12761.2F9903@localhost>

On 30 Jul 2002, at 20:46, Leslie Bates wrote:
> In 101 Corporations, page 28:
> 
> 	"Little is known about the inner workings of the Famille', although the
> dark rumours of inbreeding with eugenic intent, rampant substance abuse,
> and child labour are so prevalent they may be at least partly true (and the
> High Energy and Starship Weapons Divisions are both led by children of
> dubious stability).

"This is getting out of hand. Now there are two of them."

"We should never have made this bargain."

(I still haven't got 101 Corps, but will in a few weeks...)

/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 12:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Scott Ayres)
Date: Mon Aug  5 11:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] 40-year olds
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D06@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <20020805182204.21845.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> wrote:
> >From: Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> >>> Why does the Army do this?  Because 40 year
> olds, as a...  [snip]

> "Unless you already have time in. If you served 4
years in the Navy(or any service) when you were
younger, you could actually join up to age 39 to have
your 20 years before 55. I was casually looking into
joining the NJ Air National Guard (because the Corps
sure as s*** isn't going to take my sorry out of shape
butt back at this age, and because I'm married, a
father, and don't feel like running around swamps
anymore). I thought I would be automatically
disqualified  after age 35, but my previous time in
counts, so I actually have some leeway should I decide
to join.  The nice thing is I woudn't have to go to
boot camp.  The not-so-nice thing is the ANG doesn't
have dress blues."


Supply & Demand.  That's all it is.  In my class for
Army helicopter school, we had a 39-yr 2LT w/ 2-yrs of
prior service (18 yrs before as an E-3): the Army
needed pilots.  Later, I saw an USAF pilot trainee w/o
a spleen: the USAF needed pilots.  FWIW, the USAF (&
ANG) do have "dress blues" as well as the Army, but
they're nowhere near as pretty as the USMC's.  IMO,
the AF blues look more like a cocktail party ensemble.

In my experience, many things are waiverable.  Not
all, but many.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 12:31:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Mon Aug  5 11:31:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Aircraft carrier displacement
In-Reply-To: <200208051705.KAA00273@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <20020805183051.18082.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>

 Would anyone here know how many displacement tons a
U.S. aircraft carrier like the "Enterprise" would be?
Needing to get a visualization in my head for an
interplanetary structure in my game. 
Any help is appreciated.
thanks.


=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 13:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Aug  5 12:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Aircraft carrier displacement
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D0D@USCHM203>

 Daniel Tackett wrote:

> Would anyone here know how many displacement tons a
>U.S. aircraft carrier like the "Enterprise" would be?
>Needing to get a visualization in my head for an
>interplanetary structure in my game. 
>Any help is appreciated.
>thanks.

About 18,000 tons

Check out Ken Pick's excellent essay on Traveller starship tonnage. It's on
the Freelance Traveller website, I believe.

Basically:

	5 tons gross ship displacement(in today's nautical terms)=1
displacement ton in Traveller.

These are approximate, and there are some fairly complicated variables, but
this is a good rule of thumb.

The essay also lists some typical ships and their Traveller tonnage:

Destroyer USS Cole (TL9): 8400 tons full-load = approx 1700 Tons Traveller 
Carrier USS Enterprise (TL7): 75000 tons std, 90000 full-load = approx.
18000 Tons Traveller 
Light Carrier HMS Invincible (TL8): 16000 tons std, 20000 full-load =
approx. 4000 Tons Traveller 
Carrier USS Nimitz (TL8-9): 80000 tons std, 92000 full-load = approx. 18000
Tons Traveller 
(Moderately-armored) 
Battlecruiser HMS Hood (TL5): 42000 tons std, 45000 full-load = approx. 7500
Tons Traveller 
Typical "Treaty Cruiser" (TL5-6): 10000 tons std, 13000 full-load = approx.
2000 Tons Traveller 
Armored Cruiser KMS Graf Spee (TL6): 12000 tons std, 16000full-load =
approx. 2600 Tons Traveller 
Battlecruiser KMS Scharnhorst (TL6): 32000 tons std, 38000 full-load =
approx. 6300 Tons Traveller 
Carrier HMS Ark Royal (TL6): 22000 tons std, 28000 full-load = approx. 4500
Tons Traveller 
Carrier USS Enterprise (TL6): 20000 tons std, 26000 full-load = approx. 4300
Tons Traveller 
(Heavily-armored) 
Battleship USS Oregon (TL4): 10000 tons std, 12000 full-load = approx. 1700
Tons Traveller 
Battleship HMS Majestic (TL4): 15000 tons std, 16000 full-load = approx.
2300 Tons Traveller 
Battleship HMS Dreadnaught (TL5): 18000 tons std, 22000 full-load = approx.
3000 Tons Traveller 
Battleship USS Arizona (TL5): 25000 tons std, 33000 full-load = approx. 5000
Tons Traveller 
Battleship KMS Bismarck (TL6): 42000 tons std, 50000 full-load = approx.
7000 Tons Traveller 
Battleship USS New Jersey (TL6): 45000 tons std, 58000 full-load = approx.
8000 Tons Traveller 
Battleship HIJMS Yamato (TL6): 60000 tons std, 72000 full-load = approx.
10000 Tons Traveller 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 13:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 12:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The cloak
Message-ID: <20020805193223.638E04510@mo120usjc.palm.net>

The favorite obsuring garment of the ages.  From knights hiding their armor & swords to Kent Allard striking terror in the hearts of evil doers...it has been part of popular fiction.

How common are they in your Traveller universe?


----------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
IHTFP - FNORD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 13:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Mon Aug  5 12:35:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Aircraft carrier displacement
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D0D@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <20020805193342.51708.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com>

Thank you very much. This is a big help. Thank you
also for all the additional information as well.
Some surprizing numbers.






> Check out Ken Pick's excellent essay on Traveller
> starship tonnage. It's on
> the Freelance Traveller website, I believe.
> 
> Basically:
> 
> 	5 tons gross ship displacement(in today's nautical
> terms)=1
> displacement ton in Traveller.
> 
> These are approximate, and there are some fairly
> complicated variables, but
> this is a good rule of thumb.
> 
> The essay also lists some typical ships and their
> Traveller tonnage:
> 
> Destroyer USS Cole (TL9): 8400 tons full-load =
> approx 1700 Tons Traveller 
> Carrier USS Enterprise (TL7): 75000 tons std, 90000
> full-load = approx.
> 18000 Tons Traveller 
> Light Carrier HMS Invincible (TL8): 16000 tons std,
> 20000 full-load =
> approx. 4000 Tons Traveller 
> Carrier USS Nimitz (TL8-9): 80000 tons std, 92000
> full-load = approx. 18000
> Tons Traveller 
> (Moderately-armored) 
> Battlecruiser HMS Hood (TL5): 42000 tons std, 45000
> full-load = approx. 7500
> Tons Traveller 
> Typical "Treaty Cruiser" (TL5-6): 10000 tons std,
> 13000 full-load = approx.
> 2000 Tons Traveller 
> Armored Cruiser KMS Graf Spee (TL6): 12000 tons std,
> 16000full-load =
> approx. 2600 Tons Traveller 
> Battlecruiser KMS Scharnhorst (TL6): 32000 tons std,
> 38000 full-load =
> approx. 6300 Tons Traveller 
> Carrier HMS Ark Royal (TL6): 22000 tons std, 28000
> full-load = approx. 4500
> Tons Traveller 
> Carrier USS Enterprise (TL6): 20000 tons std, 26000
> full-load = approx. 4300
> Tons Traveller 
> (Heavily-armored) 
> Battleship USS Oregon (TL4): 10000 tons std, 12000
> full-load = approx. 1700
> Tons Traveller 
> Battleship HMS Majestic (TL4): 15000 tons std, 16000
> full-load = approx.
> 2300 Tons Traveller 
> Battleship HMS Dreadnaught (TL5): 18000 tons std,
> 22000 full-load = approx.
> 3000 Tons Traveller 
> Battleship USS Arizona (TL5): 25000 tons std, 33000
> full-load = approx. 5000
> Tons Traveller 
> Battleship KMS Bismarck (TL6): 42000 tons std, 50000
> full-load = approx.
> 7000 Tons Traveller 
> Battleship USS New Jersey (TL6): 45000 tons std,
> 58000 full-load = approx.
> 8000 Tons Traveller 
> Battleship HIJMS Yamato (TL6): 60000 tons std, 72000
> full-load = approx.
> 10000 Tons Traveller 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 13:46:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 12:46:14 2002
Subject: [TML] The cloak
Message-ID: <200208051944.MDF01639@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Mark Urbin" asks
>How common are they in your Traveller universe?

Fairly common.  I happen to own one in RL (dark brown) that 
is fairly short (just past the waist).

Hate to say it, though, it doesn't blend in in RL.  For that, 
in cooler weather, I have a black London Fog trenchcoat. 
Short military haircut, black suit, black trenchcoat, black 
gloves.  Non-descript four-door dark blue car (Crown Vic, 
Taurus, or Intrepid - the Muldermobile or similar).

Want to have fun?  Just go to the park where Vince Foster 
killed himself, get out of the car, and walk around.  
Especially if there are two of you - the local spring/fall 
picnic crowd will scatter like quail when they see you (the 
first time I did this, it was an accident - now it's just 
entertainment).

You won't have to say a thing, or impersonate anyone.  People 
will run.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 13:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Strain)
Date: Mon Aug  5 12:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020805020920.12005.8746.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <009601c23cba$8a780420$64a85940@dixienet.com>

I do believe a challenge has been accepted.

We have an opponent, and a GM. Do we have others?

missingjn@dixie-net.com 


-------------------------------------> From: Flykiller@aol.com
> Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 19:56:53 EDT
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>>Think you can handle that?
> Yes, I'd love to.
> 

DATA from Mr Roseberry's post:    [TML] Re: meduim navies

> 
> Initial Fleets for Lunion, Lanth, and Regina subsectors using
> "meduim navies".
> 
> Initial Fleets, Lunion subsector
> 
> Imperial Navy MCr 2,835,544.748
> 
> Wardn. MCr 55
> Smoug MCr 14700
> Adabicci MCr 322,000
> Zaibon MCr 148.75
> Spirelle MCr 312,375
> Derchon MCr 36,225
> Lunion MCr 3,080,000
> Shirine MCr 252
> Harvoset MCr 14175
> Perisephone MCr 28350
> Capon MCr 17,850
> Strouden MCr 3,465,000
> 
> This is peace time budget x10, using "meduim navies".
> Note: I'm using supp3 to start, so Wardn is independent.
> 
> Initial Fleets, Lanth subsector
> 
> Imperial Navy MCr 68668.554
> 
> Extolay MCr 40250
> Lanth MCr 220.5
> Dinom MCr 63
> Ghandi MCr 9.98
> Wypoc MCr 267.75
> Quopist MCr 1592.5
> Treece MCr 105,000
> Ivendo MCr 332.5
> Tureded MCr 178.5
> Equus MCr 66500
> Rhise MCr 31.85
> Icetina MCr 126
> Cogri MCr 1785
> Skull MCr 12600
> 
> This is peace time budget x10, using "meduim navies".
> 
> Initial Fleets, Regina subsector
> 
> Imperial Navy MCr 3,957,399.439
> 
> Efate MCr 3,220,000
> Alell MCr 241,500
> Yres MCr 13650
> Menorb MCr 603,750
> Uakye MCr 120.75
> Boughne MCr 189
> Hefry MCr 10.5
> Ruie. MCr 9,100,000
> Jenghe MCr 1365
> Regina MCr 422,625
> Feri MCr 409,500
> Roup MCr 1,260,000
> Yori MCr 23275
> Dentus MCr 157.5
> Wochiers MCr 294,000
> Yorbund MCr 35
> Moughas MCr 308
> Rethe MCr 6,300,000
> Inthe MCr 18200
> Shionthy MCr 20825
> 
> This is peace time budget x10, using "meduim navies".
> 
> Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches
> 








From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 14:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 13:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] vilis landgrab
Message-ID: <200208052005.MDF03952@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mark Urbin is handling Garda-Vilis.  However, I'm looking at 
systems that will probably be trading/communicating with 
Vilis, and I see 

Vilis       Kwon grabs this
Garda-Vilis Urbin grabs this

Choleosti
Arkadia
Stellatio
Frenzie

There seem to be plenty of TNS entries about some of these 
systems, especially during the FFW.  Let me finish Vilis, and 
I'm probably going to branch out over the other four in the 
list.  Unless someone else has done them...
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 14:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Mon Aug  5 13:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] dangerous children
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15DA@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Are you referring to Winnie?  Or is there <shudder> another Spofulam child out there that I'm unaware of?
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: Leslie Bates [mailto:lesbates@minn.net]
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 6:46 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] dangerous children


JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 30 Jul 2002 12:50:01 -0500, Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net>

>>Oh, by the way, was anyone aware that Ditzie has a twin sister? <big evil
>>grin>
>
>A twin sister?  Who survived?

In 101 Corporations, page 28:

	"Little is known about the inner workings of the Famille', although the
dark rumours of inbreeding with eugenic intent, rampant substance abuse,
and child labour are so prevalent they may be at least partly true (and the
High Energy and Starship Weapons Divisions are both led by children of
dubious stability).



==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 14:20:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Mon Aug  5 13:20:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Landgrab claim: Asmodeus/Querion
References: <3D4C1132.3C2572D6@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <001e01c23cbd$c1f77220$1700a8c0@imogen>

I'd like to claim Asmodeus/Querion.

Okay, I know I haven't finished Efate/Regina yet but I do have  a
lot written for  Efate  already  ...  so  I'll  be  posting  that
soon-ish.  Its just that I've  been  looking  for  a  good  Skaro
look-alike and I think Asmodeus would fit nicely (nuke war  ended
in 1005)!

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 14:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Mon Aug  5 13:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Aircraft carrier displacement
In-Reply-To: <20020805183051.18082.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <200208051705.KAA00273@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020805152430.00a5b340@minn.net>

Daniel Tackett <haegen2001@yahoo.com>
 wrote:
> Would anyone here know how many displacement tons a
>U.S. aircraft carrier like the "Enterprise" would be?
>Needing to get a visualization in my head for an
>interplanetary structure in my game. 
>Any help is appreciated.
>thanks.

From Jane's Pocket Book of Major Warships (1973):

U.S.S. Enterprise

75,700 Standard

89,600 Full Load

Hope this helps.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 14:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Mon Aug  5 13:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] dangerous children
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15DA@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020805152802.00a5e9f0@minn.net>

"DeGraff, Jesse" <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> wrote:

>Are you referring to Winnie?  Or is there <shudder> another Spofulam child
out there that I'm unaware of?
>Jesse

>>On Tue, 30 Jul 2002 12:50:01 -0500, Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net>
>
>>>Oh, by the way, was anyone aware that Ditzie has a twin sister? <big evil
>>>grin>

I haven't heard of Winnie.

I only made a Piperesque mention of the twin in Part Three of FiHP.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 14:30:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Aug  5 13:30:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Landgrab
In-Reply-To: <001e01c23cbd$c1f77220$1700a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <B9742E4B.68481%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

For al of you who have posted your landgrabs to the web, please check
http://spinwardmarches.com to see if you are linked.  If not, please drop m=
e
an email with the URL.

Thanks, Tod

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 14:32:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Mon Aug  5 13:32:09 2002
Subject: [TML] dangerous children
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15DB@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Winnie's in the "Famille Spofulam Winter 97" catalog .pdf available at the BITS site.  She's also been mentioned at least one other time that know of in the Type J Racing Yacht design posted to the TML by Ian.

Jesse
Haven't read Piper ;)


-----Original Message-----
From: Leslie Bates [mailto:lesbates@minn.net]
Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 1:28 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] dangerous children


"DeGraff, Jesse" <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> wrote:

>Are you referring to Winnie?  Or is there <shudder> another Spofulam child
out there that I'm unaware of?
>Jesse

>>On Tue, 30 Jul 2002 12:50:01 -0500, Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net>
>
>>>Oh, by the way, was anyone aware that Ditzie has a twin sister? <big evil
>>>grin>

I haven't heard of Winnie.

I only made a Piperesque mention of the twin in Part Three of FiHP.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
Message-ID: <200208052113.g75LD2w04199@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
>Subject: RE: [TML] Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"

  FWIW, a rider BatRon is 93+% riders to ~7% fighter
tonnage. Their role? (SMC, pps. 35-6)

  "Fighter Division: ... Fighters are used for long range
patrols and recon within a system, allows (sic) the carrier
advanced warning of enemy ... In addition, the fighters are
expected to hold the screen against enemy vessels until the
Riders are ready to begin* a battle".

  *they may not bother practicing much for the role "screen 
against enemy vessels until the surviving Riders are aboard
the tender/carrier and ready to Jump", as _those_ fighters 
will have executed their last mission :|

  Steven Hudson

...
>It is canon, Traveller has whopping big fleet carriers (not to mention the
>Tigress class BBs) which carry huge number of fighters.
>
>The imperium obviously believes they have a need for large numbers of
>fighters. AFAIK carrier squadrons are equated with cruiser squadrons (see
>Fighting Ships) and presumably carry out some of the same missions. Commerce
>raiding is possible but would you need a fleet carrier for that?
>
>So given that carrier squadrons exist if they are totally useless against
>other cruiser squadrons what would they be used for. I submit it could also
>mean that point defence systems are not as good as the navy would have us
>believe.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:23:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:23:22 2002
Subject: [TML] nuclear detonations in vaccuum
In-Reply-To: <152.119d95a9.2a7787fd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20805.135712.9K3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>  >>I'd like to see a discussion of nuclear weapons effects in a 
>  >>vaccuum.  since there's no blast then it seems to me that 
>  >>ablative or reflec for heat, and simple armor for radiation, 
>  >>should adequately deal with all but very close detonations.  
>  >>I wonder how much neutron irradiation it would take to 
>  >>embrittle a hull ....
>  >>
>  > 
>  >It's mostly "soft" x-rays.  Not thermal radiation.  You get 
>  >conversion to infrared only in an atmosphere (the nitrogen in 
>  >the air absorbs the x-rays, becoming the "fireball" and re-
>  >radiating at lower wavelengths.  During the Spartan ABM 
>  >design work, they found that x-rays couple much more 
>  >effectively with a metal bodied craft than the infrared does -
>  >the damage penetrates much deeper into the warhead.
>
> and what exactly is the nature of that damage?  did they do testing on any 
> kind of armor?  does enough radiation penetrate "regardless of armor" to 
> cause significant interior damage or personnel casualties?  when x-rays 
> couple with metal, does that mean the metal absorbs them?

The damage depends on *how much* energy is absorbed. Small amounts just
damage crystal structure a bit. Larger amounts cause heating. the
amounts from a *close* detonation deposit so much energy that the
material (metal, rock, water, air, whatever) flashes into plasma
*explosively*). 

The air absorbing x-rays and converting to a high energy plasma is what
cause the shock wave and thermal flash from a nuke inside an
atmosphere. 

Metal just absorbs more of the x-rays in a shorter distance. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:24:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:24:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
In-Reply-To: <20020730203333.87379.qmail@web20419.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20805.140900.3G8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>
>>1 5-gallon bucket, a bag of cement, some water and mixing time and a
>
>>rowboat have served wiseguys well for many decades now.
>>
>>All it requires is one East River.
>
> Weighted bodies dropped into water turn up with alarming frequency --
> alarming especially to the wiseguys who are trying to keep the body
> from being found.  We just had several turn up in a reservoir in
> California not long ago -- I guess it was last year.  This does
> remain a fair solution at all tech levels ("Og, you tie stone to foot
> of dead guy with vine.  I make raft."), but is not quite as sure as
> I'd like.  

There are a number of moderately simple ways that are "good enough"
*if* you don't expect anyone to come looking for the person. 

In that case, you can just use a bathtub, sharp knife and a meat
grinder. Flush away the evidence. Grinding up the bones is a *pain*,
but doable.

Use lots of bleach in the tub, and the toilet and try not to splash,
just in case.

If you've got an isolated area, and access to liquid nitrogen you can
produce liquid oxygen, and use that to cremate the body. 

In a pure oxygen atmosphere, even fresh meat and bone will burn quite
well. with LOX, you'll have to be careful not to cause an explosion.

Industrial strength hydrogen peroxide tends to dissolve flesh, but also
tends to explode on contact with things like blood.

Oh yeah. Time is an important factor. If there's no rush, you can do a
much better job, with far less mess.

Doh!

I wonder how well a body exposed to LN2 or LH2 would shatter when
struck? That'd be one way to reduce the body to a nice powder (or
"slush" after it thaws) for easy disposal. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:26:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:26:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
In-Reply-To: <200207311718.LTT06680@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20805.142332.0S0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> WriteFool says
>>From the standpoint of pure economic and management 
>>efficiency I would have to agree, but on the other hand by 
>>creating the traditions and institutional memory of never 
>>giving up on a case and instilling that in to each 
>>generation of policefolk, it might help foster a certain 
>>determination as well as giving some comfort to victims' 
>>families that everything can and will be done and 
>>their losses and justice will not be forgotten.
>
> I would imagine that such perseverance, or lack thereof, 
> varies from planet to planet across the Imperium.  While they 
> might do things like this on, say, Regina, who can say how 
> they run things - even at the Imperial capital.
>
> In Washington, D.C., the homicide department is in complete 
> shambles.  I sometimes wonder if the powers that be intend 
> for it to be so.  Cases are lost, forgotten, misplaced...
>
> And the coroner's office is a complete joke.  It's a sore 
> point for the residents, but nothing, I repeat, nothing has 
> been done to remedy the situation.  

Of course not. The residents can't vote. 

Or did they at least get *local* elections a while back?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:28:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:28:21 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <200208052113.g75LD2w04199@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028582658.5758.ajackson@ping>

Steven Hudson writes:
> 
>   "Fighter Division: ... Fighters are used for long range
> patrols and recon within a system, allows (sic) the carrier
> advanced warning of enemy ... In addition, the fighters are
> expected to hold the screen against enemy vessels until the
> Riders are ready to begin* a battle".

Two problems:

1)  In space, it tends to be easier to simply tack a great big sensor on the
main ship.
2)  The fighters can't hold a screen if the capital ships can just ignore the
screen and charge the carriers.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPAEBKEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPAEBKEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
Message-ID: <p04330104b974a06d3f80@[198.123.22.180]>

At 5:30 PM +0800 8/5/02, Antony Farrell wrote:
>It is canon, Traveller has whopping big fleet carriers (not to mention the
>Tigress class BBs) which carry huge number of fighters.
>
>The imperium obviously believes they have a need for large numbers of
>fighters. AFAIK carrier squadrons are equated with cruiser squadrons (see
>Fighting Ships) and presumably carry out some of the same missions. Commerce
>raiding is possible but would you need a fleet carrier for that?


Fighters are useful for point defense, but they have other uses.  One 
is tracking down smaller targets and ground support.  (Sure a meson 
gun makes a big "boom", but if you want to stop dozen or hundreds of 
little scattered ships or if you want to support troops on the 
ground, then fighters become a lot more useful).  Another is sensor 
pickets (esp if allow them to set up a sensor net to form one big 
array).  There was at least one more use I've forgotten....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805084630.018ca4e0@192.168.0.1>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804192145.024cac00@192.168.0.1> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020804192145.024cac00@192.168.0.1> <20020805191412.A25687@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020805084630.018ca4e0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020806074241.A27684@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> Kwai Ching is an interesting example.  They really have no choice
> but to produce the majority, if not all of their food.

That's true for basically *all* vacuum worlds with more than a few
million people.  As I said, Kwai Ching is *above* the median trade
level per capita.


> They are not part of an established trading federation, and their imports 
> are spotty at best due to ethically challenged merchant activity.
> (that's according to GT: Behind the Claw, and the example Tim is using.)

I'm not using BTC at all -- I'm using the trade rules in Far Trader.

Most plaets have *less* ability to trade for food.


> To produce a variety of food that would keep a large population
> happy requires a large amount of space, water and energy.

That's true regardless of whether the world has air or not.


> If you have bulk traders making a regular run through the system,
> and there is an Agricultural planet on their loop, the rockball can
> get a wide variety of foodstuffs without the large markup.

Try running the numbers to see if it works.  You might be surprised.
Don't underestimate how much it costs to ship food for a few billion
people.


> If it's not economically viable to produce 100% of the food locally,
> why should they do it?

That's the whole point -- it *is* economically viable to produce 100%
of the food locally.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1028582658.5758.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1028582658.5758.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <p04330105b974a1517539@[198.123.22.180]>

At 2:24 PM -0700 8/5/02, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Steven Hudson writes:
>>
>>    "Fighter Division: ... Fighters are used for long range
>>  patrols and recon within a system, allows (sic) the carrier
>>  advanced warning of enemy ... In addition, the fighters are
>>  expected to hold the screen against enemy vessels until the
>>  Riders are ready to begin* a battle".
>
>Two problems:
>
>1)  In space, it tends to be easier to simply tack a great big sensor on the
>main ship.

Well, that isn't in the base GT rules or in CT (or in MT, I'm not 
sure).  The proposed rules I've seen limit sensor size to ship size 
(so if you make your ship effectively bigger, then your own 
dectection is easier) but if you are going to modify the rules, then 
you should be able to allow scattered fighters to relay their data 
and set up a virtual array much bigger than any a ship can carry....

>2)  The fighters can't hold a screen if the capital ships can just ignore the
>screen and charge the carriers.


Yeah, they can serve as point defense (ie a screen against missiles)
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:56:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:56:13 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <p04330105b974a1517539@[198.123.22.180]>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028584537.113.ajackson@ping>

David P. Summers writes:

> Well, that isn't in the base GT rules or in CT (or in MT, I'm not 
> sure).

Well, neither have much in the way of larger sensors.  Still, even in GT you'll
need 25 cockpit bridges to get the sensor capabilities of one command bridge.

> Yeah, they can serve as point defense (ie a screen against missiles)

Well, true but not the normal meaning of 'screen', since that does nothing to
prevent the larger ship from getting within energy weapons range.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:57:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:57:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805090845.01831e50@192.168.0.1>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804223247.0237e008@192.168.0.1> <20020804232303.7408.33320.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <006701c23c1f$2baff600$195d8690@computer> <5.1.0.14.0.20020804223247.0237e008@192.168.0.1> <20020805202103.D25687@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020805090845.01831e50@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020806075541.B27684@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> It was determined that published trade rules didn't fit the big picture.

That may be so, but they are the official rules for the official
universe.  I agree that variant rules may give variant results.


> Large bulk traders were needed in core sectors to make it work.

They are needed under the existing rules, too.

Either way, it takes on the order of a billion dtons per year to feed
an average pop-9 world to a modern level.  That's a few million-dton
superfreighters arriving every day.  I haven't seen any canonical
sources that suggest such a level of shipping.


> I agree with you in places like the Marches, or even more frontier
> settings.

I'm basing my figures mostly on the core sectors.  If you don't like
the results, then publish your own trade rules.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
References: <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Of course, point defense can be greatly upgraded with fairly little 
> effort to achieve much better results against missiles,

It can?  When I tried, I got virtually negligible improvements.


> If nothing else, a short range countermissile capable of taking out
> an incoming missile is probably less than 10% of the weight and cost
> of the incoming missile.

You can make a countermissile a lot cheaper than the published
standard missile (yes, about 10%), but the problem is that you can
make the ship-killing missiles much cheaper and smaller as well (for
the same effectiveness).  Multiple-warhead missiles are extremely
difficult to stop in their terminal phase.

You would also have to modify the space combat rules to allow
point-defense missile fire.  Then there's the headache of missiles
with their own point defense against countermissiles :-/


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028585608.7515.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> Anthony Jackson wrote:
> > Of course, point defense can be greatly upgraded with fairly little 
> > effort to achieve much better results against missiles,
> 
> It can?  When I tried, I got virtually negligible improvements.

Sorry.  You first have to throw out the ROF modifiers in GT and use standard
GURPS rules ;)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
In-Reply-To: <3D4E5E7E.26225.7DEF71@localhost>
References: <137.122edd2d.2a7ee774@aol.com> <B972E6BF.67D85%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <3D4E5E7E.26225.7DEF71@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020806081755.D27684@freeman.little-possums.net>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> And for those who have money to burn:
> 
> TL Guidance Vol Mass AV MCr   G-Turns Warhead Hits Damage  Range Comm
> 15 Full-Ind 7   7.32 3  5.232 4/4     500ktx2 2D6  1/25-79 0     10L
[...]
> Probably way too expensive for most people, but it should ruin the day 
> of any smaller vessel that runs into a field of them.

Does this one last longer than 12 hours?  At 5 MCr a pop, it seems
like they would have to ruin a *lot* of people's days to be
worthwhile.

Not something you can just emplace by the thousands in traffic lanes
in the hope that one or two hit, and too slow to get in range if you
did.  It looks like it would only be useful in or near planetary
orbit.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:22:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:22:06 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020801093246.4c070802@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20805.143023.3i7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 04:07 PM 7/31/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>>"Glenn M. Goffin" says
>>>So, John, are you a sociopath in real life, or do you just 
>>>play one in RPGs?
>>
>>In real life, the Army saw fit to conduct a psychological 
>>evaluation, and on the commander's recommendation, I was sent 
>>to sniper school.  Later, when I became a software 
>>consultant...
>
> Hey!  They gave me a pysch eval before I was assigned to sniper school!
> Evidently, I was just sociopathic enough for their purposes...

And we love you for it. <g>

Which reminds me:

http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp08042002.html

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1028585608.7515.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1028585608.7515.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020806083856.E27684@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Sorry.  You first have to throw out the ROF modifiers in GT and use
> standard GURPS rules ;)

Ah, that makes more sense :)

Even so, have you considered the problem of loss of accuracy with
higher-RoF weapons of the same overall size?

If you allow Vehicles-designed missiles, a typical target might be a
Size -1 object closing at 300 mi/s with 12 gee maneuverability and
effective DR 600.  A missile rack would launch up to 20 of these in a
salvo.  Depending upon whether your opponent respects the Imperial
Rules of War, they may or may not have nuclear warheads.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
In-Reply-To: <20020806081755.D27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3D4E5E7E.26225.7DEF71@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D4FA627.26089.39E708@localhost>

On 6 Aug 2002 at 8:17, Timothy Little wrote:

> Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > And for those who have money to burn:
> > 
> > TL Guidance Vol Mass AV MCr   G-Turns Warhead Hits Damage  Range Comm
> > 15 Full-Ind 7   7.32 3  5.232 4/4     500ktx2 2D6  1/25-79 0     10L
> [...]
> > Probably way too expensive for most people, but it should ruin the day 
> > of any smaller vessel that runs into a field of them.
> 
> Does this one last longer than 12 hours?  At 5 MCr a pop, it seems
> like they would have to ruin a *lot* of people's days to be
> worthwhile.

No, I forgot to mention that this model can run the sensor and brain 
for 7 days.
 
> Not something you can just emplace by the thousands in traffic lanes
> in the hope that one or two hit, and too slow to get in range if you
> did.  It looks like it would only be useful in or near planetary
> orbit.

That's the real problem with mines, I guess. For more range you'd 
probably be best off just dumping lots of fully-independant missiles, 
but they won't have much endurance. The only way round this is to put a 
fusion plant in, and they're fairly big by missile standards - FF&S 
PEMS arrays use an annoying amount of power.

Perhaps a CAPTOR style sensor platform with a number of small missiles 
on board would be a workable comprimise, though it'd start getting 
expensive real quick, and it wouldn't be long before most design 
committees turned it into a small battle-station by adding point 
defence, etc. I'm sure.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:45:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:45:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Astronomy Boffin Question
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEKAIKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020805110124.358f5e36@pop.mindspring.com>

At 10:27 PM 8/4/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>How big can a rocky asteroid be and still be irregular?

At a guess, about 100 miles diameter.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:46:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:46:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEKFEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <m3y9bndi8f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020805112347.358f6ef0@pop.mindspring.com>

At 01:07 PM 8/4/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>This brings up an interesting point. Does it go the other way too? Most U.S.
>soldiers had a good month between the time they left CONUS and the time they
>hit the lines in Europe, even during the most active time of the war. Today
>soldiers in Georgia can be in a war zone in less than 48 hours. Does this
>also contribute to PTSD? How does it effect their combat readiness.

It leads to more stateside training and readiness drills.  I took part in
REFORGER 85 (REdeployment of FORces to GERmany, and exercise where troops
were airlifted to depots in Europe where vehicles and heavy gear were
waiting for us.. all we brought along was personal kit.)  In preparation
for this, we spent a great deal of time going over things like loading
drills, NBC warfare, squad tactics and the like.  There was no assumption
that we'd have time to train before entering combat.

>ObTrav: This would not be a problem for interstellar troops, since minimum
>travel time is a week. Maximum travel time could be much higher. (Which is
>why I especially have a problem with GT designs which use bunkrooms.) Could
>a really large troop transport incorporate a habitat module to use as a
>training area? It strikes me that a holoventure module might work really
>well for battledress units and vehicle drivers (tank, fighter, etc.) but
>that regular troops will need more room to practice small unit tactics,
>unless the holoventure studios work as good as ST holodecks.

The designs in Ground Forces include firing ranges and other small training
areas, but as you say, the troops could be in cramped quarters for a good
time.  Which could be an invitation for more adventures.  This was partly
inspired by a Bill Maudlin cartoon showing troops in bunks stacked four
high with no room to breath, and the First Sergeant standing there saying
"Look, th' schedule calls for calisthenics, so we're gonna start with the
left eyebrow..."

Here's a fun game to play if you have Ground Forces.  You are a Force
Lieutenant assigned to a Caen-class ship.  You are lying in your bunk, and
feeling a bit peckish.  How do you get to the officer's mess?  :)
-- 

Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.
gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html

Author of GT: Ground Forces                               

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:47:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:47:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <008901c23c6c$e2004c00$be09bd50@martinjd>
References: <20020804173620.8351.57196.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <006901c23c1f$2dd85440$195d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020805114848.35e72ae8@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:42 AM 8/5/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>>
>> Hmm. I've always wanted to run an Arbellatra vs Gustus game. Maybe I
>should
>> actually do it.
>
>You should. Then I can play

Dibs Arbellatra.  One of my favorite people in Traveller history.  Someday
I'd love to write a sourcebook for the Arbellatra Regency.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:49:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:49:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
In-Reply-To: <138.1260f901.2a7f16a9@cs.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020805115125.30d74ca4@pop.mindspring.com>

At 07:45 PM 8/4/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>Speaking of which, does anyone know where I might find a good-condition copy 
>of FTL:2448? I've looked all over the place, both online and in RL and I've 
>never been able to find anything. I've got everything else TriTac's put out 
>and I'm wanting to complete my collection.

Try putting a "wanted" message up on rec.games.frp.marketplace
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:50:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:50:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Warghame ----> Nightmare?
In-Reply-To: <194.af51b03.2a7f3c97@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020805114147.35df3ff4@pop.mindspring.com>

At 10:27 PM 8/4/2002 EDT, you wrote:
>>But seriously, the comm delay and limited intelligence turned a wargame into
>>a nightmare.
>
>Commo delays and limited intelligence are half the fun of a decent wargame. 
>I love large, multiplayer exercises -- the umpires don't have to insert the 
>"fog of war" because the players provide it themselves!

This is why part of the SALUTE intelligence report is "unit." Keeping track
of who is where is vital.  During our massive 5FW game, I was only sure of
the psotion and status of 1st Assault Fleet, which I was personnaly
commanding.  I had no idea if my other fleets were reaching their
objectives, dead, or exceeding their mission orders.  It turns out that one
of my fleets had encountered the Imperial 212th and 100th fleets and been
mauled, but the enocunter led to the Imperial side believing that the
Jewell attack was a feint, and that my main goal was Rhylanor.  Gave me a
few extra months.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
Message-ID: <200208052309.g75N9Gw20035@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
...
>>   "Fighter Division: ... Fighters are used for long range
>> patrols and recon within a system, allows (sic) the carrier
>> advanced warning of enemy ... In addition, the fighters are
>> expected to hold the screen against enemy vessels until the
>> Riders are ready to begin* a battle".
>
>Two problems:
>1)  In space, it tends to be easier to simply tack a great big sensor on the
>main ship.
>2)  The fighters can't hold a screen if the capital ships can just ignore the
>screen and charge the carriers.
  
  Understood; in both cases it's the limitation of the rules system
at work. OTOH, point one could be addressed by making the fighters
into serious endurance / high speed platforms for sustained in-
system ops, but that's getting them into gunship tonnages, and you
might as well make them Jump capable for survivability.

  As MJD indicated recently, point two can only be addressed fully
in a hex-based Trav navals game.

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:11:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:11:32 2002
Subject: [TML] The cloak
Message-ID: <memo.630916@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <200208051944.MDF01639@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
John T. Kwonjtkwon@jtkgroup.comJohn T. KwonIn article 
<200208051944.MDF01639@vmms1.verisignmail.com>, jtkwon@jtkgroup.com (John 
T. Kwon) wrote:

> "Mark Urbin" asks
> >How common are they in your Traveller universe?
> 
> Fairly common.  I happen to own one in RL (dark brown) that 
> is fairly short (just past the waist).
> 
> Hate to say it, though, it doesn't blend in in RL.  

I too wear a cloak - nice big warm brown floor-length one. It's an Arab 
desert cloak I picked up in Tunisia, actually. It is so warm I have been 
outside at 0500 in March, frost & snow on the ground, and the only cold 
bit was my nose...

But I've always been fond of cloaks, and that's only the latest in a 
succession... the first one was purchased when I was about 12.

Once walked across the local town square and heard someone laughing. 
Looked round, a fellow was pointing... but as he had a full Mohican, dyed 
pale blue, I'm not quite sure why he wanted to laugh at someone else's 
choice of attire :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.

(Oh yes, and it used to spook the army - I took one of my big cloaks out 
in the field, rather than bedroll & basha.)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020805114848.35e72ae8@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <008901c23c6c$e2004c00$be09bd50@martinjd>
 <20020804173620.8351.57196.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <006901c23c1f$2dd85440$195d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020805181643.00a65470@minn.net>

At 11:48 AM 8/5/2002, Mr. Penguin Fancier wrote:
>At 11:42 AM 8/5/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>>>
>>> Hmm. I've always wanted to run an Arbellatra vs Gustus game. Maybe I
>>should
>>> actually do it.
>>
>>You should. Then I can play
>
>Dibs Arbellatra.  One of my favorite people in Traveller history.  Someday
>I'd love to write a sourcebook for the Arbellatra Regency.

I'll buy one.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1028584537.113.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1028584537.113.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <p04330106b974b83fd6de@[198.123.22.180]>

At 2:55 PM -0700 8/5/02, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>David P. Summers writes:
>
>>  Well, that isn't in the base GT rules or in CT (or in MT, I'm not
>>  sure).
>
>Well, neither have much in the way of larger sensors.  Still, even 
>in GT you'll
>need 25 cockpit bridges to get the sensor capabilities of one command bridge.

I'm not sure how you are adding these....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:26:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:26:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
References: <20805.140900.3G8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3D4F094F.3020905@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> I wonder how well a body exposed to LN2 or LH2 would shatter when
> struck? That'd be one way to reduce the body to a nice powder (or
> "slush" after it thaws) for easy disposal. 

Probably pretty well.

We used to do that with, erm, various rodentia parts; if you're looking 
for DNA adducts you have to keep 'em cold or they degrade.

I hated doing it though, grinding stuff in LN2 in a ceramic mortar and 
pestle makes this *awful* fingernails-on-chalkboard noises.

Take a LOT of LN2, though.

An industrial meat grinder would do far better and quicker.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
Message-ID: <OFF3DF5114.9F0FA072-ONCA256C0C.0080B0D9@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Mark asked:
>What is the TL of  the Imperium & the Terran Confederation in the Year 
1000 
>setting of T20?

15. The answer is always 15.

;-)  ;-)

(It's Twoday, and the jokes aren't getting any better. It's gonna be a 
l-o-n-g week...)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:31:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:31:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Low-tech naval forces
Message-ID: <200208052330.MDN00014@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Working on the Vilis landgrab, and it occurred to me that 
Vilis would be the source of a lot of the subsector navy - 
the Imperial Navy keeps its ships at Frenzie, the subsector 
capital, but Vilis has a lot more resources - it probably 
supplies a lot of the subsector navy.  The only drawback is 
its low tech level.

It is possible to build something that would satisfy what I 
see as the probable needs of a backwater subsector - if you 
assume that the Imperial Navy is more concerned with the 
Federation of Arden and the Zhodani threat (not to mention 
the occasional Sword World problem).

The major reason that Vilis and Frenzie, and the worlds 
nearby, would welcome Imperial forces is that it allows the 
consolidation of their own local area.  The Imperials get a 
forward base of operations and a ready supply of bodies to 
volunteer for service (billions and billions).

That leaves the local forces to conduct local show the flag 
ops, space control over a small set of systems along a Jump-1 
route from Vilis to Frenzie, and anti-piracy patrol.  Even a 
TL 9 ship should be able to conduct basic anti-piracy patrol 
against the typical "ethically challenged" merchant.

These forces would not last in a stand-up battle against 
major forces such as the Zhodani, but they could exist in 
large enough numbers to make piracy a difficult proposition.

Just working on a small carrier (9000 ton) with 200 fighters, 
and a few small escorts for work around the systems near 
Vilis and Frenzie.  Quite a change from massive TL15 ships 
sporting T meson guns.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
Message-ID: <OF2F3C29E3.8D5E3297-ONCA256C0C.0081279C@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Martin replied:
>>What is the TL of  the Imperium & the Terran Confederation in the
>>Year 1000 setting of T20?
>
>The Impeirum is TL 14 mostly, with Tl 15 just creeping in over the last 
few
>years.

OK, this one's got me puzzled, I'll give a serious reply now.

By the time 1105 rocks around, the Imperium averages out at TL 13 (MT's 
"Average Stellar"), with many TL 14 and quite a few TL 15's ("High 
Stellar").

Given that, I would have thought that in 1100 the Imperium would be at TL 
_13_, with "TL 14 just creeping in"?

What TL is the original AHL (built c.1005)? I thought it was built using 
the best tech at the time, and thus fitted out at TL 14 (with j-5 
drives)??
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
In-Reply-To: <OF2F3C29E3.8D5E3297-ONCA256C0C.0081279C@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <3D4FB7E8.30830.7F429A@localhost>

On 6 Aug 2002 at 9:38, david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:

> Dear Folks -
> 
> Martin replied:
> >>What is the TL of  the Imperium & the Terran Confederation in the
> >>Year 1000 setting of T20?
> >
> >The Impeirum is TL 14 mostly, with Tl 15 just creeping in over the last 
> few
> >years.
> 
> OK, this one's got me puzzled, I'll give a serious reply now.
> 
> By the time 1105 rocks around, the Imperium averages out at TL 13 (MT's 
> "Average Stellar"), with many TL 14 and quite a few TL 15's ("High 
> Stellar").
> 
> Given that, I would have thought that in 1100 the Imperium would be at TL 
> _13_, with "TL 14 just creeping in"?
> 
> What TL is the original AHL (built c.1005)? I thought it was built using 
> the best tech at the time, and thus fitted out at TL 14 (with j-5 
> drives)??

IIRC the Imperial peak TL just nudged over into TL15 during the Rim 
War, which ended in 1009 (I think).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:57:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:57:04 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>

Hi Tim,
   For what it is worth, I started to respond to this thread earlier before 
I had to go to bed and get some sleep...

If you could, so I can check your reasoning:

List all of the modifiers to gunner's skill you are using in a 
missile/antimissile engagement.

Example:

Skill 12 laser gunner
Accuracy 32 Laser platform
Gunnery +6 to hit program

Range penalty -39
ROF bonus +10
Point Defense phase bonus +10
Active Sensor lock +2

Total modifiers:
12+ 32 + 6 + 10 + 10 + 2 - 39 = 72-39 = 32

Rolling an average of 10 on 3d6 means that you will have succeeded by 
22.  Number of missiles successfully engaged in that round will be equal to 
round((22-3)/2,0) or 19/2 rounded up or 10.

Please note that second edition rules for TRAVELLER have bumped up the ROF 
bonus from their current levels to current levels +3.  Also note that 
instead of rolling for each missile being engaged by point defense, you 
roll only once for the entire "turn".  Thus, in the example given above, 
the gunner with skill 12 is engaging a group of incoming missiles *will* 
engage the incoming group and nail 10 missiles.  If less than 10 are 
inbound, that single gunner stops it cold.  If more than 10 are inbound, he 
stops 10 and the rest hit.

                               Hal


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:58:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:58:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
In-Reply-To: <20020805125303.24699.70318.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020805125303.24699.70318.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <j14uku0gpb04hc31qnlhbjes50l610n0t8@4ax.com>

On Mon, 05 Aug 2002 05:53:03 -0700, john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:

>----- Original Message -----
>From: Hunter Gordon <trav@RPGRealms.com>
>Date: Sunday, August 4, 2002 11:45 am
>Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)

 
>> On 8/4/2002 at 4:21 PM Antony Farrell wrote:
 
>> >Was that spam and eggs
>> >or spam, spam egs and spam?
 
>> Ok gotta keep it on topic!
 
>> Pardons if this has actually been covered previously.
 
>> So does SPAM survive the Rule of Man, the Long Night and into the 
>> Third Imperium? If so, is it just a Solomani thing, or have the 
>> Vilani and others come to enjoy this uniquely Terran... ummm .... 
>> stuff? I'm just picturing a group of adventurers finding an old 
>> Rule of Man cache, stockpiled with cans of good old SPAM!

>Ah, you should have saved that question for a Newbie Essay [tm]! ;-)

>Actually, it's quite plausible that SPAM was a significant factor in the 
>Solomanification of former Vilani worlds.  To wit:

>1.  SPAM would likely be included in relief aid to former Vilani worlds 
>ravaged by Terran-introduced pandemics.
>2.  Given that SPAM does not require processing by shugiili, and that 
>SPAM has a relatively long shelf life ("long" in a geological sense, 
>that is), it would go far in breaking the power of the shugiili in 
>Vilani society.
>3.  Add to these factors the relative conservatism of Vilani culture and 
>you find that, once SPAM was introduced on former Vilani-ruled worlds, 
>it tended to remain a staple of the diet on those worlds, thus ensuring 
>that SPAM would continue to be consumed (if not necessarily enjoyed) up 
>into M:1100.
>4.  Until such time as the fine folks at Hormel licensed the production 
>of SPAM on worlds other than Earth, the Terrans would be the only source 
>of this staple, thus economically binding the former Vilani worlds 
>closer to Terra.  Even after SPAM production began on worlds other than 
>Earth, genuine Terran SPAM was held to be superior, commanding premium 
>prices.  This coopted Sharushiid into the ruling SPAM consortium.
>5.  We can thus also see that the Solomani Rim War, with its focus on 
>the capture of Terra, was driven by the desire to control the original 
>point source of SPAM.

>QED. ;-)

>Hmmm.  Perhaps I should write up Hormel Foods as a megacorp using the 
>Universal Corporate Profile from _101 Corporations_....

Do it!

You might want to consider redacting this thread and sending it to Hormel
for giggles - who knows; if they research it, we might gain a couple of new
fans! :)

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:06:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:06:05 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020806083856.E27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028592330.6838.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> Anthony Jackson wrote:
> > Sorry.  You first have to throw out the ROF modifiers in GT and use
> > standard GURPS rules ;)
> 
> Ah, that makes more sense :)
> 
> Even so, have you considered the problem of loss of accuracy with
> higher-RoF weapons of the same overall size?
> 
> If you allow Vehicles-designed missiles, a typical target might be a
> Size -1 object closing at 300 mi/s with 12 gee maneuverability and
> effective DR 600.  A missile rack would launch up to 20 of these in a
> salvo.  Depending upon whether your opponent respects the Imperial
> Rules of War, they may or may not have nuclear warheads.

Ok, that's reasonable.  Now, let's look at a point defense system:

36 megajoule x-ray laser, ROF 8*, compact.  2.0 T, 80 cf, $280k.  Range 7,700
miles, Acc 29
Full stabilization: 0.2T, 8 cf, $40k
9 x rE cell, good for 50 shots: 0.09T, $90k
Dedicated Macroframe: 0.25T, $50k, complexity 11
Targeting +12: $512k (but probably gets a bulk discoute)
Assume gunner skill is 14.  Total effective skill, if aiming for 4 seconds
before firing a burst, is 43 (and a miss by 1 hits, so call it 44).  Note that
there are several different calculations of Acc in space combat (Vehicles and
Space 3e both have different systems), all of which disagree; with the Vehicles
system beam weapons in space have no Acc cap, effective skill would be 55, and
hitting is no challenge.  That's probably the most realistic one, too).

The missile is being fired at one second before impact (300 mile range, +300
miles for velocity, we'll ignore this making no sense) and the range penalty is
34, -1 for size, so chance of hitting once is 9.  We can fire two bursts easily
enough; in fact, if we start firing a bit sooner we'll also get two rolls at 8-
and 4 rolls at 7-, which means the chance of leaking through is around 10%. 
Obviously, using the Vehicles acc rule, the hit roll is 20 or less, and we
might as well drop to single shot with 1 turn of aiming, which means 20 seconds
before impact (effective range 6600) there's still a 50% chance of hitting, and
your single launcher kills an average 8 missiles before impact.

Hm...that's actually worse than I realized.  Oh well, if they send a really big
swarm of missiles at you simply dump a canister round in front of them.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:07:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:07:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805085604.018d7340@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAELOEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>It is canon, Traveller has whopping big fleet carriers (not to mention the
>Tigress class BBs) which carry huge number of fighters.
>
>The imperium obviously believes they have a need for large numbers of
>fighters. AFAIK carrier squadrons are equated with cruiser squadrons (see
>Fighting Ships) and presumably carry out some of the same missions.
Commerce
>raiding is possible but would you need a fleet carrier for that?

How about fighters are best for use against other fighters? If you are using
fighter for a multitude of missions, planetary support, SDB hunting, as
widely dispersed sensor pickets, etc. then maybe fighters are the best
weapon system to take out these other fighters.

Also while point defense may be very good against missiles I would expect a
fighter to have defenses of its own. For example mini-sand casters which
fire a small enough amount of sand to protect a fighter. Short range
missiles that can be used against missiles or rail guns (VRFGGs), which
might be effective against missiles. All of these weapons would be mere
fractions of a dton in size (If you use GURPS install them as modular grav
system components. They should be small enough to fit in wasted space in the
ship.) Use standard GURPS vehicle combat rules rather than space combat
rules for active defense by the fighter. This gives fighters an edge over
missiles against point defense, which would be a good reason why they are
still used.

If this is true then the best weapon against a fighter might very well be
another fighter. Use the space combat rules for long distance combat, but if
the fighters enter the same hex switch to short range weapons:

"He's too close for the main laser, Switching to guns!"

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:09:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:09:15 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
Message-ID: <OFF9549605.CA2D48D8-ONCA256C0C.008210E4@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Tim said:
>> You want to know what the results are of a 50 lb rock tossed via a
>> Trebuchet against a Far Trader's hull?  GURPS VEHICLES has rules for
>> it.
>
>Yes, this sort of very wide scope is what I like best about GURPS in
>general.  Given Traveller's range of planetary tech levels, this might
>easily come up in a game!

Have I got a deal for you! Follow the links at Beowulf Down to find 
low-tech weaponry! Go to Repair Bays ==> House Rules ==> Weapons Tables 
==> Archaic Missile Weapons ==> Torsion Projectile Weapons. All stats 
written for MT.

Oh, rats. No trebuchet. You'll have to make do with a catapult for now. 
Pen 7 out to 1 km, doing 5D damage. A Free Trader has AC 40 (HG "0" 
armour), so it will only scratch the paint, unless you hit a window (cloth 
AC 5, unless you prefer AC = TL = 8 for the trader). Important safety tip: 
Don't Forget To Close The Window Shutters. In return, my single "pathetic" 
TL 8 pulse laser (Weapons Tables ==> Starship Weapons) has Pen 79 out to 
50 km, doing 75D damage(**). Ouch! Hey, catapults burn really well, don't 
they? What fool made them out of WOOD??

Now where did I stash my old set of siege weapons - under the bed? Dig out 
that trebuchet and set it up, we'll want to fire some rocks at that old 
Beowulf I use as a towed target... ooh, nice hit! OK, I'll have to try 
translate the results into some more stats for you. ;-)

**Bill Hostman and the MT Players' Handbook will disagree with me here, 
saying the damage really should be _750_ dice. Yes, DICE, not hit points. 
However, I think that's really just a bit of overkill. Really. ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:10:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:10:46 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Landgrab of Vilis
Message-ID: <20020806000823.69621.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>

>If I'm doing Vilis, I think I had better do Garda-Vilis, 
>unless someone has already done that one.

That's Tanoose to you, apologist scum!

This message has been brought to you by the Tanoose Freedom League.

*********************************************
The sender of this message takes no responsibility for its content. 
The views expressed in this message are not necessarily the views of
the sender.  The sender has sent this message only as an
accomodation.

--Glenn

P.S.  You have Adventure 5 (I think): Broadsword, don't you?  

__________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:12:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:12:16 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <p04330106b974b83fd6de@[198.123.22.180]>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028592626.5758.ajackson@ping>

David P. Summers writes:
> 
> I'm not sure how you are adding these....

Cockpit bridge: nominal sensor range (PESA) 20,000
Command bridge: nominal sensor range (PESA) 100,000
Area covered by a given sensor: proportional to square of range.
Note that since, in space, stealth in GT is twice as effective as emissions
cloaking, there's really no point to useing the AESA, the PESA is almost always
more effective.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] vilis landgrab
References: <20020805215729.6122.21835.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <004401c23cde$cd707220$eeb18b90@computer>

> From: "John T. Kwon"
> Mark Urbin is handling Garda-Vilis.  However, I'm looking at
> systems that will probably be trading/communicating with
> Vilis, and I see
>
> Vilis       Kwon grabs this
> Garda-Vilis Urbin grabs this

I was considering doing a landgrab of Vilis a couple of months back. I got
as far as doing the "literature review" before getting bored.

The main thing that struck me was that Vilis, and Garda-Vilis, were settled
_before_ the establishment of the Imperium. In the case of Garda-Vilis, we
know that it was settled by Sword Worlders, and it seems likely that Vilis
was too.

There are also inconsistencies in the sources! One source gives much later
dates for settlement of the worlds. I was thinking that this might indicate
a secondary wave of immigration.

My suggestion would be to talk up the Sword Worldishness of these worlds.
There is absolutely no reason why culturally Sword Worlder worlds couldn't
exist within the Imperium, and it would give a rather clear flavour to the
societies.

I also had some thoughts about the factions of the Ine Givar that were
present, and their relationships with each other, the Tanoose Freedom
League, and Solomani supremicist groups, but I will spare you those.

Oh. One interesting thing is that Vilis isn't the capital of Vilis
subsector, while being the "capital" of a multi-world polity. Is there a
"Count of Vilis", as well as a "Duke of Vilis"?

You are welcome to either use or ignore any of these silly ideas.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <B9732F75.68182%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000001c23cde$c8128b60$6501a8c0@Darla>

While there is probably no way to completely mitigate the horrific
effects of war on the human psyche, I do presume that the Imperium will
use more advanced psychological techniques then now available for the
selection and retention of people in combat units.  I also assume that
the current degree of superstition and stigma associated with getting
mental health treatment will be a thing of the past in the 57th century
--  to the point where a combat veteran receiving treatment for PTSD (or
whatever we are calling it) before discharge will be no more remarkable
than getting medical treatment for physical wounds.

This would also mean that retirements or reassignments due to mental
health reasons would be as common as those due to injuries.  Presumably
combat vets would be offered the opportunity to re-muster into a support
unit, but some might refuse that..."Yeah, got a downcheck from the
Medical Officer when we debriefed from that job on Kinorb.  They offered
me a transfer to Logistics Command, but f**k that - I'm a soldier, not a
civilian wearing a uniform.  So, I took my walking papers and opened up
this place...what can I get for ya?"

In game terms, all this gets rolled up in the survival throw during
character generation.  IMTU, failing a survival throw by 4 or more kills
the character.  Failing by 3 or less represents anything that prevents
the character from continuing in that career.

TWB


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:19:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:19:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Taxes
In-Reply-To: <m33ctujfxj.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <000801c23cde$c9cdcff0$6501a8c0@Darla>

> >
> > IMTU the Imperium gets at 10% tariff on the value of all goods
> > shipped interstellar, plus 10% of the fares charged for interstellar
> > passage.  The Imperium does not levy any direct taxes on
> > individuals.
> 
> Those rates would make it _very_ difficult to make a profit as a free
> trader...
> 

That is true...but for MTU I wanted a Free Trader to be economically
marginal, and probably not practical unless you get an old (i.e. cheap)
ship and/or do some speculative trade on the side.  

TWB


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: 5 Aug 2002 - Freelance Traveller NOT Updated :(
Message-ID: <20020806002701.39745.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Freelance Traveller <editor@freelancetraveller.com>

>Due to an unexpected confluence of factors, mostly involving the 
>effect of weather on human activities (we lost power Friday evening
>when a tree took down some wires down the block during the storm,
>and I spent most of Saturday recovering from a fifteen-hour outage),


Yes, the weather here in Northern California has been quite
atrocious, too.  It was partly cloudy for nearly a week, and the
temperatures stayed below 70F almost all day.  I don't know how we
survived it.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:29:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:29:31 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
Message-ID: <OF83374F94.00E76973-ONCA256C0D.00020AC8@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

John wrote:
>> So does SPAM survive the Rule of Man, the Long Night and into the 
>> Third Imperium?
>
>Ah, you should have saved that question for a Newbie Essay [tm]! ;-)
>
>Actually, it's quite plausible that SPAM was a significant factor in the 
>Solomanification of former Vilani worlds.  To wit:

Brilliant exposition of the balance-of-power conferred to the Terrans by 
their all-conquering secret weapon, Spam! Keyboard kill! <applauds>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:31:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:31:12 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Large Scale Games, One Traveller, one WW3[Long]
Message-ID: <20020806003053.77072.qmail@web20414.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Shadowcat" <res053z0@gten.net>

>The second game was a traveller game at a previous Winter Wars 
>a couple of years after the historic Shadows tournament, which 
>was called Diplomatic Mission. This was a 6 hour game with 24 
>players that dealt with the reopening of trade to a redzoned world.
[deletion]
>This game lasted 6 very hectic hours, and had a grand total of 2 die

[deletion]
>I have seriously considered reconstructing the aspects of this 
>game for another convention, or even as an IRC game, but there 
>are too many problems for it to work as an IRC game.

It would make a great convention game, however.

--Glenn



__________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller
Message-ID: <20020806003342.77711.qmail@web20414.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net>
>
>(Across cyberspace, someone asks himself: What about processed
>cheese food products in the Third Imperium?)

They are a staple of starship life, for which the Vilani are
eternally grateful to the Solomani.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:41:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:41:15 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <20020806004033.73952.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>

>I've read a pretty persuasive argument by Charles Pellegrino 
>that outlines every reason why we should, even in the absence 
>of direct contact, assume that a starfaring species, a 
>species capable of manipulating the energies necessary to 
>span stellar distances, is a direct apocalyptic threat to our 
>existence, and that other species must make this same 

[deletion]

>Humans have a built-in cultural inhibition against 
>intraspecies murder - or else murder would be more common.  
>But make it an alien species, and we won't have that 
>inhibition by nature.  Any inhibition we have will come from 
>intellect and not instinct.  And any restraint we have will 
>be easy, perilously easy, to lose.  It will be difficult not 
>to fear them by instinct.

It's clearly part of Grandfather's purpose for humans that he
scattered us among the stars and encouraged the development of the
jump drive among the three major races at about the same time.  That
way, our first discoveries of other starfaring races would be of
other humans, and we would be somewhat less likely to try to
annihilate one another at once.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] vilis landgrab
Message-ID: <200208060043.MDP00769@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Alan Bradley" asks
>The main thing that struck me was that Vilis, and Garda-
>Vilis, were settled _before_ the establishment of the 
>Imperium. In the case of Garda-Vilis, we know that it was 
>settled by Sword Worlders, and it seems likely that Vilis
>was too.

Indeed.

>There are also inconsistencies in the sources! One source 
>gives much later dates for settlement of the worlds. I was 
>thinking that this might indicate a secondary wave of 
>immigration.

There's nothing wrong with multiple waves of settlement.

>My suggestion would be to talk up the Sword Worldishness of 
>these worlds.

I had the idea that they were Sword Worlders, but that the 
families that settled Vilis and Garda-Vilis left the 
homeworld completely - for reasons that remain speculative.  
But I would intimate that there is either a sense of being 
cast out or a sense of abandonment, depending on who tells 
the story.  The reasons that the settlers left may give some 
distinct difference between their culture and the one that 
was left behind.

>There is absolutely no reason why culturally Sword Worlder 
>worlds couldn't exist within the Imperium, and it would give 
>a rather clear flavour to the societies.
>

>I also had some thoughts about the factions of the Ine Givar 
>that were present, and their relationships with each other, 
>the Tanoose Freedom League, and Solomani supremicist groups, 
>but I will spare you those.
>

No, tell me more.

>Oh. One interesting thing is that Vilis isn't the capital of 
>Vilis subsector, while being the "capital" of a multi-world 
>polity. Is there a "Count of Vilis", as well as a "Duke of 
>Vilis"?
>

I have one obscure reference to a Duke of Vilis.  I think 
that Frenzie is the subsector capital because the Imperial 
Naval Base is there - the population there serves mainly as 
the service population for the naval base and yards.  And the 
Naval Base is there because it's a better strategic position 
than Vilis.  I would, however, believe that a lot of the 
local politics (less than the subsector, but entailing the 
little cluster within Jump-1) are dominated by Vilis.

________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020806000604.2646.31858.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <006201c23ce3$2b1f27a0$eeb18b90@computer>

> From: "Douglas E. Berry"
> Dibs Arbellatra.  One of my favorite people in Traveller history.

Unfortunately, if it were to happen, I would have to randomly assign people
to particular positions, and keep them anonymous, in order to ensure that
all communications passed through my hands.

I was thinking about how many players would be needed last night. 7 would be
minimum, 11 would be optimal, more would be too hard to manage.

It would also be a huge amount of work for me to do.

> Someday I'd love to write a sourcebook for the Arbellatra Regency.

And I'd love to read it!

I've done quite a bit of work on the Civil War period, but the problem I
kept running into was: why play in this period rather than in the 1100s? The
problem is that essentially, it's still the Imperium, with all the familiar
structures in place, with only rather modest changes.

It will be interesting to see how the T20 writers deal with this.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com






From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:48:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:48:28 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
Message-ID: <006301c23ce3$2bcea180$eeb18b90@computer>

> From: "Rupert Boleyn"
> IIRC the Imperial peak TL just nudged over into TL15 during the Rim
> War, which ended in 1009 (I think).

I would take TL 15 as being the equivalent of TL 16 in Milieu 1100:
something rather rare and wonderful.

TL 14 would be the equivalent of TL 15 - the TL of most modern military
gear. Depending on how long TL 14 had been around, a fair bit of older stuff
might be TL 14 too.

The counter mix from Invasion Earth might be worth studying. Images of it
may be available on the Far Futures website.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:51:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Barnett-Lewis)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:51:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra (was Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
References: <20020806000604.2646.31858.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D4F1C5A.95CD40DE@mailbag.com>

> At 11:48 AM 8/5/2002, Mr. Penguin Fancier wrote:
> >At 11:42 AM 8/5/2002 +0100, you wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hmm. I've always wanted to run an Arbellatra vs Gustus game. Maybe I
> >>should
> >>> actually do it.
> >>
> >>You should. Then I can play
> >
> >Dibs Arbellatra.  One of my favorite people in Traveller history.  Someday
> >I'd love to write a sourcebook for the Arbellatra Regency.
> 
> I'll buy one.

Doug's writing? I'll buy a dozen and give them all away. I can't think
of a better way to hook newbies into Traveller than the 3ICW as done by
him. That era gives everything anyone could want in a milleau. 

 
> Les


So when does it show on BITS/SJG/T20 new releases schedule? :'p I need
to pay for yet another partial cup of coffee!

William
-- 
You better watch out   What you wish for;
It better be worth it  So much to die for.
		       Courtney Love

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:52:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:52:19 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  The cloak
Message-ID: <20020806004801.59831.qmail@web20422.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Mark Urbin" <urbin@bigfoot.com>

>The favorite obsuring garment of the ages.  From knights hiding
>their armor & swords to Kent Allard striking terror in the hearts of
>evil doers...it has been part of popular fiction.
>
>How common are they in your Traveller universe?

ca. 1100s, they are in fashion at the Imperial court, and therefore
commonly worn by nobles everywhere.  Commoners only wear them when
the weather demands it.

--Glenn

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:54:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:54:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Astronomy Boffin Question
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020805110124.358f5e36@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0208060246490.363897-100000@svati>

On Mon, 5 Aug 2002, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

>At 10:27 PM 8/4/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>>How big can a rocky asteroid be and still be irregular?
>
>At a guess, about 100 miles diameter.

Actually, it is almost a factor of ten bigger. Both 1 Ceres
and 2 Pallas are slightly irregular at 960 x 932km and
570 x 525 x 482km respectively. 1000km is a fairly accurat upper
limit.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020805112347.358f6ef0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNGEMBEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>ObTrav: This would not be a problem for interstellar troops, since minimum
>>travel time is a week. Maximum travel time could be much higher. (Which is
>>why I especially have a problem with GT designs which use bunkrooms.)
Could
>>a really large troop transport incorporate a habitat module to use as a
>>training area? It strikes me that a holoventure module might work really
>>well for battledress units and vehicle drivers (tank, fighter, etc.) but
>>that regular troops will need more room to practice small unit tactics,
>>unless the holoventure studios work as good as ST holodecks.
>
>The designs in Ground Forces include firing ranges and other small training
>areas, but as you say, the troops could be in cramped quarters for a good
>time.  Which could be an invitation for more adventures.  This was partly
>inspired by a Bill Maudlin cartoon showing troops in bunks stacked four
>high with no room to breath, and the First Sergeant standing there saying
>"Look, th' schedule calls for calisthenics, so we're gonna start with the
>left eyebrow..."
>
>Here's a fun game to play if you have Ground Forces.  You are a Force
>Lieutenant assigned to a Caen-class ship.  You are lying in your bunk, and
>feeling a bit peckish.  How do you get to the officer's mess?  :)
>--
>
>Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.

Let me start by saying I absolutely love 95% of Ground Forces. I think the
colors great. I like everything from the unit structure information, to the
battledress designs, to the modular grav design system.

The one thing I can't stand is the ship designs. I loath the Caen. Among
other problems: Where are the navy ratings bunked? They certainly wouldn't
be with the Marines, not since the rest of canon says that they should be
living in staterooms, which I would suppose are separate from the officer's
staterooms. I could go on and on about the failings of the design, but I
don't want to rant.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
Message-ID: <OFEF72E03B.8084570D-ONCA256C0D.0005E3D1@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Rupert said:
>> Given that, I would have thought that in 1100 the Imperium would be at 
TL 
>> _13_, with "TL 14 just creeping in"?
>> 
>> What TL is the original AHL (built c.1005)? I thought it was built 
using 
>> the best tech at the time, and thus fitted out at TL 14 (with j-5 
>> drives)??
>
>IIRC the Imperial peak TL just nudged over into TL15 during the Rim 
>War, which ended in 1009 (I think).

Doh! Just looked at my Library Data, which has the Sol Rim War from 990 to 
1002.

Well, even if they've just reached TL 15, I think my original assertion 
still stands.

Oh, and yeah, I meant 1000, not 1100 (you knew that, right?).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <20020805082530.D24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEMCEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>> This gave them the necessary range, a single 10,000 mile GURPS
>> Traveller hex, to be effective weapons.
>
>Ah, that explains it.  You're using a two-dimensional map.  Yes, if
>you can restrict spacecraft to move in a plane, then I agree that
>space mines can be effective.  (But even then, only if you don't use
>the GURPS Traveller space combat system)
>
>
?????

What has that to do with anything. A det-laser mine that can fire across a
10,000 mile hex, can fire across a 10,000 sphere. After doing some searching
on my hard drive I find that actual range is more like 9 hexes, so in a
three dimensional game that would be a sphere 180,000 miles across. Of
course I remember you poo pooing the idea then too. (Note: some of your
comments, especially on robot controlled mines, computer programs and mines
with active sensors were right on.)
I think the best system we came up with was one where the mines were
controlled by either a controlling sensor platform or a ship. This makes the
mines smaller and cheaper. The sensors "paint" the target for the passive
sensors on the mines to pick up.
And as in real life these mines would be more of an area denial weapon than
an actual threat to a capital ship. And you would have to seed many many
mines which would probably not be station keeping, but would be moving
enmass into an area. Part of the point would be to force ships attempting to
traverse the area to slow down, use sensors and weapons to clear the mine
field. This alone would make them detectable to opposing craft.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Aircraft carrier displacement
Message-ID: <20020806013316.28336.qmail@web20418.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>

> Daniel Tackett wrote:

>> Would anyone here know how many displacement tons a
>>U.S. aircraft carrier like the "Enterprise" would be?

>Check out Ken Pick's excellent essay on Traveller starship tonnage. 
>It's on the Freelance Traveller website, I believe.
>
>Basically:
>
>	5 tons gross ship displacement(in today's nautical terms)=1
>displacement ton in Traveller.
>
>These are approximate, and there are some fairly complicated 
>variables, but this is a good rule of thumb.
>
>The essay also lists some typical ships and their Traveller tonnage:
>Carrier USS Enterprise (TL7): 75000 tons std, 90000 full-load = 
>approx. 18000 Tons Traveller 

That might be a good rule of thumb.  The Traveller dton is a measure
of volume, 1.5m x 1.5m x 3.0m, or 13.5m3.

The dimensions of the USS Enterprise (CVN-65) are given at these web
sites:

http://www02.clf.navy.mil/enterprise/
http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/factfile/ships/ship-cv.html

length = 335.64m
beam = 39.9m
height = 76.2m (keel to mast)

I was not able to find out the height of the mast and the conning
tower.  I'll assume that it's half of the keel to mast height.  That
gives a volume of 335.64 x 39.9 x 38.1 = 510,236m3.  510,236/13.5 =
37,795 dtons.  

The Enterprise is not a rectangular box, of course, so it is possible
that sloped sides make up for about half of the difference in volume
between its real shape and that of a rectangular box.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:36:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:36:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <20020806013559.48555.qmail@web20417.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>

>Dibs Arbellatra.  One of my favorite people in Traveller history.  
>Someday I'd love to write a sourcebook for the Arbellatra Regency.

You beat me to it!  She is also one of my favorites.  I see her
regency as a turning point in Imperial history at several levels.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump governor
Message-ID: <200208060139.MDR00542@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I don't see these in High Guard - IMTU, they don't exist.  If 
a Jump-4 ship jumps 2 parsecs, they only use 2 parsecs worth 
of fuel.

What was the last canon word on this subject, if any? 
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
 <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]>
Message-ID: <p0433010bb974d90d92ee@[198.123.22.180]>

One thought that came up in this thead.  One you get to high enough 
scale, things become binary, either you can fire enough missiles to 
overwhelm the point defenses, or you can't.  (Not getting into 
"saving up missles" and other stuff).

What is the view toward using nukes for point defense?  Is it OK 
since it is "defensive"?  I think the Imperium wouldn't allow it (why 
do you have a nuke in the first place?) and it would only matter for 
fleet battles anyway...  So it would come down to any agreements, 
unspoken or otherwise, between the major powers (Impies vs Zhos, 
Impies vs Solos, Hivers vs the K'Kree) and whether it is seen as 
provoking retaliation.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020805215043.E25687@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEMDEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>Yes; either remove the chemical warhead or replace it with a fusion
>warhead.  A chemical explosive makes little sense.  Even the standard
>missiles accelerate to 72 km/s in the first round -- putting a
>chemical explosive in them is a bit like putting a spring-loaded
>boxing glove on an anti-tank penetrator.
>
>
The only reason I can think of is to allow you to self destruct the missile
if necessary.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:55:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:55:24 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1028592626.5758.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1028592626.5758.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <p0433010cb974db4e1b41@[198.123.22.180]>

At 5:10 PM -0700 8/5/02, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>David P. Summers writes:
>>
>>  I'm not sure how you are adding these....
>
>Cockpit bridge: nominal sensor range (PESA) 20,000
>Command bridge: nominal sensor range (PESA) 100,000
>Area covered by a given sensor: proportional to square of range.
>Note that since, in space, stealth in GT is twice as effective as emissions
>cloaking, there's really no point to useing the AESA, the PESA is 
>almost always
>more effective.


You are assuming close packed spheres.  Since object are likely 
moving wrt to each other, you would leave gaps.  Ie, you would have 
successive "shells" of sensors that object would need to pass through 
to approach (and fighters have high G ratings and can cover more 
ground per sensor by moveing around).  Also, If you take sensor input 
from multiple sensors and combine them, it is possible to generate 
detection of things that couldn't be detected within the range of 
anyone sensor.  Lastly, the advantage that a fighter gives only its 
own position, and not that of the capital ship, if it is caught first 
is non-trivial
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:57:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:57:14 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <p0433010bb974d90d92ee@[198.123.22.180]>
References: <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]>
 <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
 <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020805220304.026d01a0@mail.buffnet.net>

At 06:41 PM 08/05/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>One thought that came up in this thead.  One you get to high enough scale, 
>things become binary, either you can fire enough missiles to overwhelm the 
>point defenses, or you can't.  (Not getting into "saving up missles" and 
>other stuff).
>
>What is the view toward using nukes for point defense?  Is it OK since it 
>is "defensive"?  I think the Imperium wouldn't allow it (why do you have a 
>nuke in the first place?) and it would only matter for fleet battles 
>anyway...  So it would come down to any agreements, unspoken or otherwise, 
>between the major powers (Impies vs Zhos, Impies vs Solos, Hivers vs the 
>K'Kree) and whether it is seen as provoking retaliation.

I agree with the assessment about the "binary" situation.  I rather liked 
the concept of firing at each missile per wave.  If you want to insure that 
you don't get "leakage" you assign two gunners to each missile.  Then 
again?  Missiles can be bad enough as they are without allowing them to 
hit         ;)

Oh well.  Part of me likes the first edition rules, part of me likes the 
second edition.  Arrrghhhhh.  I still remember how disgusted I felt when I 
saw the new edition rules granting a +3 bonus to all the ROF bonuses - 
meant I would have had to go in and change all of my point defense lasers 
I'd built for CGI (my fictional Weapon's company).  Such was life then that 
I took it down.  Oh well.

                   Hal


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:59:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:59:05 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020805221551.F25687@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEMDEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>> What you do is build lasers whose only purpose of existance is to
>> damage missiles.  Build those lasers so that you have a high rate of
>> fire.
>
>High RoF doesn't do a lot.  It just counts as a bonus to hit in the
>combat system.  e.g. Multiplying the RoF by 16 gives you +4 bonus.
>This would mean 2 extra hits per shot, except:
>
>For the same volume requirement, your weapon has to use about 10 times
>less energy per shot.  That cuts the damage by a factor of about 3,
>which doesn't matter a lot against the standard missiles.  It will
>however reduce your range by a factor of 3 -- not a problem, you say,
>because you only need less than a hex?  Range directly determines
>accuracy, which will thus drop by 3.
>
>The net effect is a +1 to hit.  You're almost back where you started,
>except that now your weapon is greatly restricted in its utility for
>any other role.
>
>I've been along that route :-/

In the playtest for Starships I believe it was stated that you simply use a
computer program to reconfigure your standard lasers for point defense. It
is assumed that point defense takes place at very short ranges (for space
combat.)


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 20:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fred Ramen)
Date: Mon Aug  5 19:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra (WAS: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
Message-ID: <00fa01c23ced$9eedde60$331df7a5@pctframen>

"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes:

"Dibs Arbellatra.  One of my favorite people in Traveller history.  Someday
I'd love to write a sourcebook for the Arbellatra Regency."

Aye, mine too. Such a book might finally answer the question of just what
kind of leader she was.

IMHO, the model for Arbellatra is Augustus--not Julius--Caesar. That is, she
was more a illiant politician than a brilliant general. I base this on a few
factors:

1) She essentially lost the 2FW but still managed to declare victory and
mobilize the Marches behind her. (Remember, the Imperium ceded territory to
the Zhodani after the war, and Library Data mentions that the final
engagement resulted in a "stalemate" between the two sides. She basically
one the war the same way the U.S. "won" the War of 1812--by not losing as
badly as expected.)

2) It seems doubtful to me that even after a decade of civil war her
provincial fleet could cow the Vland Sector Fleet--yet she must have had the
cooperation of Vland sector, as others have pointed out, in order to
triumph. Again, this demonstrates her political acumen.

3) Her masterly stroke of refusing the crown is remarkably similar to
Augustus' own "retirement" from government--while in truth retaining a firm
grip on the reins of power. (The people of Rome demanded at one point that
he publish a list of candidates he favored, so they would know who to vote
for--not from coercion, but from a devotion to Augustus.)

My interpretation may also explain her meteoric rise to high command at such
a young age--perhaps her title of Grand Admiral of the Marches was a
ceremonial one, or rank was determined by noble standing to a much greater
degree in the antebellum Imperium. (Indeed, perhaps Arbellatra reformed the
military to make it more egalitarian, not only to prevent a rival from
rising in a fashion like her own, but to insure loyalty to the Emperor and
the Imperium and not the individual commander, as seems to be the case with
Plankwell and the other Emperors of the Flag.)

Fred "Arbellatra Divina" Ramen


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 20:16:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Aug  5 19:16:31 2002
Subject: [TML] "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"
Message-ID: <20020806021519.42100.qmail@web11304.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Under the rules of war, we've been discussing, if an
enemy intentionally builds fortifications or other
military structures among a civilian populance, then
that enemy becomes rssponsible for the safety of those
aforementioned civilians. If those civilians are
actively and willfully supporting the enemy, then they
are no longer considered noncombatants. So, it IS Al
Quaida's fault and responsibility if the US
intentionally seeks to bomb a legitimate military
target that Al Qaida has hidden behind a human shield.
END QUOTE

Bomb civilians? To be polite what the f*&# are all the
special forces for? A bunch of civilians having a
wedding on an arms dump hardly need to be strafed by
C-130 gunships! Most would surrender as soon as ground
troops approached and those who attacked would be
shot. Sure maybe some troops would be shot, but they
knew that when they signed up. Killing hundreds of
civilians just to save a few of "our" soldiers is not
an ethical trade! During the early part of the Korean
war US forces where ordered by the Supreme Command to
fire on any refugees attempting to croos their lines,
in case the North Korean army was using them as
infiltrators! The Pentagon has repeatedly tried to
cover this up, my fear is much the same thing is going
on today. And I am not a dove to use the American
term, I advocated intervention in Afgahnistan three
years ago. I also support the invasion of Iraq
(Actually I believe Saddam should have been dead in
91). However killing civilians just because it is
easier than using ground forces is no excuse. Except
in exceptional circumstances such as using the A-bomb
on japan (though I would have preferred a live "test"
on a non populated region), where its purpose was more
to break the spirit of the japanese and prevent even
worse civilian casualties.

James

http://digital.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Digital How To
- Get the best out of your PC!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 20:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 19:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] UWP generator
In-Reply-To: <20020730040045.54068.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20805.174051.5d2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I am currently in the process of creating my own home
> brew campaign setting (Can you say "Goa'uld of the
> starboard bow!")

I've got some images of stargates (both photos and drawings) and some
fonts with the symbols. I got them courtesy of someone who runs an SG-1
website.

> I could write the software myself but my C++
> compiler won't do random numbers (machine specific
> problem) and I don't yet know enough Java.

What's wrong with BASIC? <g>

The old interpreted QBASIC was still on the disks as of Win 98SE. I
don't know about ME or XP. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 20:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Aug  5 19:35:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <20020806023441.86669.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
I'll repeat myself.  Using the small fleet concept
that Roseberry posted earlier, I would be interested
in running a TL 12 PBEM.

Then we could find out through politics what other
players (representing their governments) think of
things like planetary bombardment, prisoner exchange,
trade embargos, blockades, etc.
END QUOTE

I would be interested. Even though I haven't designed
any military ships before. Can I be the "Evil Empire",
to exercise my sick and twisted imagination (too many
years of playing Vampire:TM) ;)

James


http://digital.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Digital How To
- Get the best out of your PC!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 20:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 19:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <200208060250.MDT01032@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Ramsay says
>I would be interested. Even though I haven't designed
>any military ships before. Can I be the "Evil Empire",
>to exercise my sick and twisted imagination (too many
>years of playing Vampire:TM) ;)
>

I think we have to go with Doug's idea, and take this to 
several levels - some people would be fleet commanders, some 
people would be the politicians, and some people would be the 
First Space Lord (Lord of the Admiralty?).

Also, it would have to be coordinated so all commo went 
through me, so that we could get everyone good and confused.

I was just thinking of things like the Imperial Navy 
Permanent Fighting Instructions...
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 21:07:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 20:07:35 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEMDEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <20020805221551.F25687@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEMDEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <4035.64.8.3.28.1028603214.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

Hello Terry,

> In the playtest for Starships I believe it was stated that you simply
> use a computer program to reconfigure your standard lasers for point
> defense. It is assumed that point defense takes place at very short
> ranges (for space combat.)

When I built lasers for use in my traveller campaign back when first
edition Traveller came out - I built purpose built point defense lasers. 
They didn't have a lot of damaging ability - perfect for civilian use. 
They did however, have a higher rate of fire than normal lasers...



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 21:25:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 20:25:20 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller - more
Message-ID: <d1.1c6715c7.2a8098f4@aol.com>

 >Actually, given some of the other tech, the weapons could be fusion
 >warheads that don't *need* a fission trigger.

I see.  Then (ignoring the fact that this is fantasy technology) I suppose 
that anyone with access to a fusion plant of any size will have access to a 
fusion "nuke" (for lack of another word)?

Book 4 states that the PGMP-13 is powered by a fusion reactor.  I don't 
suppose this would be significantly larger than that on a missile, so how 
much modification would be needed to turn it into a bomb?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 21:26:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 20:26:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: T20 background question
Message-ID: <200208060324.g763OPw20614@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] T20 background question
...
>TL 14 would be the equivalent of TL 15 - the TL of most modern military
>gear. Depending on how long TL 14 had been around, a fair bit of older stuff
>might be TL 14 too.
>
>The counter mix from Invasion Earth might be worth studying. Images of it
>may be available on the Far Futures website.

  Courtesy of the TML RoM TL Flamewar/Debate of 1997 Historical 
Re-enactment Society:

  Feb 19 98
>To: Traveller
>From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>Subject: IM equipment/doctrine
>
>  I was recently flipping through a rather overpriced copy of the
>Regency Vehicle Sourcebook (?), and got the strong impression that
>Imperial Marines were (in TNE, at least) always equipped to the
>best standard, that being 14 or 15 by the Rebellion.
>
>  That all makes sense and is probably an extension of Striker II
>material, but while pawing through the Invasion: Earth counter mix
>I ran across a bunch of TL 12 and 13 Marines. I know that projects
>about Marine history and TO&E's are out there, and I was wondering
>if any ideas had been formed about how this fit IM or IN doctrine,
>or what had changed since 1002.
>
>  As all other units seem to be limited to TL 14, presumably all
>~max. TL Marines were serving with fleet elements continuing the
>offensive beyond Sol system. So it would appear that at least
>until then that the IM had independent Marine regiments (from the
>counters) of lower (12/13) TL for occupation or follow-up duties.
>
>  This assumes that the white Imperial counters with a star for ID
>type are Marines... my copy of FFW went AWOL long ago.
>

        ********   

 Apr 6 98
>To: Traveller
>From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>Subject: I:E commandoes
>
>>>For the record, Inv: Earth gives _both_ sides TL14 troops counters.  The
>>>Imperial forces are broken down as to Regulars, Colonials, etc., but no
>>>such distinction is made for the Solomani counters.  (Exactly why I
>>>stated that the claim that Earth was TL13 was, well, an exaggeration.)
>>
>>   This fits nicely with establish canon.  I'm not sure what the problem
>>is here.  While it is possible that the Imperium and Solomani had some
>>TL 15 commandos or other small elite formations, at the scale the game
>>is conducted, they would not have been a factor in the fighting (or
>>would have been lumped in with a lower tech formation).
>
>  This came up several months ago. However, both commando units (regiment
>-sized raiders) and rules (ignore ZOC's/occupied hexes) are covered, and
>none are TL 15. Also, while Terra can churn out replacement armies at TL
>14, not even a few thousand TL 15 lift infantry kits can be produced.
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 21:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 20:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020806075541.B27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805090845.01831e50@192.168.0.1>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020804223247.0237e008@192.168.0.1>
 <20020804232303.7408.33320.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <006701c23c1f$2baff600$195d8690@computer>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020804223247.0237e008@192.168.0.1>
 <20020805202103.D25687@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020805090845.01831e50@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805225506.02acc008@192.168.0.1>

At 07:55 AM 8/6/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
> > It was determined that published trade rules didn't fit the big picture.
>That may be so, but they are the official rules for the official
>universe.  I agree that variant rules may give variant results.

 From what I recall, the rules for small (100-200 ton) 'tramp' traders.
That is what players typically have (instead of freighters the size of Navy 
Cruisers)
It's been a long time since I looked at the CT rules, and haven't dug into 
the Far Trader rules to the extent you have.

The thread started with how did the die off happen in TNE on Rockballs if 
they grow all their own food.
Someone else has stated that the Virus would play havoc with the local 
greenhouses and such (and gave examples)

I'll take your word that the numbers in Far Trader state that high pop 
rockballs grow all their own food.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vegetarian: An old Indian word that means "lousy hunter."
                www.urbin.net/EWW/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 21:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mosaic Tapestry)
Date: Mon Aug  5 20:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra (WAS: warship optimization in Traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <00fa01c23ced$9eedde60$331df7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <002901c23cfa$9b96b130$2f7de40c@loki>

Fred Ramen shares with us a wonderful comparison of Arbellatra and
Augustus to wit I must say thank you. It is these kinds of analysis,
shared, that reignites my desires to look into parts of the Traveller
universe I had allowed to rest and become dusty.

For those wishing to further explore may I offer these semi-random
links?

http://home.earthlink.net/~nimrodd/LibraryData/A/Arbellatra.htm
http://home.earthlink.net/~nimrodd/LibraryData/C/CivilWar.htm
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw/libdata/ALPHABET/S/soegz.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Matrix/1302/HIWGNZ/I3.html
http://www.ogrecave.com/reviews/darkmoon.shtml
http://www.flash.net/~grazzit/history.html
http://members.cox.net/carlino/Survey.htm
http://www.jtas.org/Software/downloads/megat1.txt
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~iandl57/samson.html
http://www.io.com/~mike_f/RPG/Rumors_of_War/Third_Imperium.html
http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/money.html
http://www.rossmack.com/ab/rpg/traveller/ChartedSpace/BY/BY1104.asp
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~iandl57/tranoii.html
http://www.io.com/~thrash/imperium.html

I did say they were semi-random didn't I? Anyway I had fun collecting
'em hope some of you have fun following them.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 21:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 20:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <159.120df85e.2a809f36@aol.com>

 >> > Army?  What army?
 >> 
 >> I'll believe that when I see it. This sort of talking has always 
 >> turned 
 >> out to be wishful thinking in the past, and I see no reason why it 
 >> isn't now. It's all very well while you're thrashing low-tech 
 >> thrid-
 >> worlders, but sooner or later there'll be another first-world vs 
 >> first-
 >> world scrap, and spec ops teams relying on vast amounts of support 
 >> just 
 >> won't cut it.
 >> 
 >I refer readers to the Fehrenbach quote the opens Chapter 1 of GT:GF.  
 >Words to the effect of (quoted from memory):
 >
 >You may fly over a land forever; you may bomb it, atomize it, sterilize 
 >it and wipe it clean of life; but if you wish to defend it for 
 >civilization, you must do this the way the Romans did, by putting your 
 >young men into the mud.

I would agree.  But as you will observe in Afghanistan (and arguably Serbia) 
they did it by putting someone else's young men into the mud -- and not all 
that many of those.  I seem to remember something along those lines in 
Gibbons ....

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 21:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 20:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller - more
Message-ID: <200208060348.MDV00878@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Flykiller asks
>Book 4 states that the PGMP-13 is powered by a fusion 
>reactor.  I don't suppose this would be significantly larger 
>than that on a missile, so how much modification would be 
>needed to turn it into a bomb?


Take a look at the LANL Magnetized Target Fusion web page.  
Then think about how that could be used as an initiator for a 
fusion weapon - without the traditional fission primary.

The Z-pinch at Sandia is also a possibility, if the power 
conditioning piece can be made small enough.
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 22:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Aug  5 21:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEMDEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEMDEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <1028606767.3d4f4b2fa9269@www.paradise.net.nz>

Quoting Terry Carlino <carlino@cox.net>:

> In the playtest for Starships I believe it was stated that you simply
> use a
> computer program to reconfigure your standard lasers for point defense.
> It
> is assumed that point defense takes place at very short ranges (for
> space
> combat.)

For point-defence lasers using FF&S1 I assumed that you could crank up the RoF 
by lowering the energy per pulse by the requisite amount. As a 200MJ RoF100 
laser (for example) has the same focal array volume as a 50MJ RoF800 laser the 
only inefficiency is in needing a 200MJ HPG. AFAICT being able to install only 
one type of laser makes up for that quite easily.

-- 
Rupert Boleyn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 23:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 22:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Aircraft carrier displacement
Message-ID: <OF2DF9F69F.D7DF6D06-ONCA256C0D.001C4302@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Glenn wrote:
>I was not able to find out the height of the mast and the conning
>tower.  I'll assume that it's half of the keel to mast height.  That
>gives a volume of 335.64 x 39.9 x 38.1 = 510,236m3.  510,236/13.5 =
>37,795 dtons.
>
>The Enterprise is not a rectangular box, of course, so it is possible
>that sloped sides make up for about half of the difference in volume
>between its real shape and that of a rectangular box.

Triangular box, so it should be roughly 1/3 of your figure (~12,500 
dtons). If it's 5/12ths to allow for the larger stern, it comes to 15,750 
dtons. Then add the "island" section.

I'd go with Brian's 18,000-ton figure. Near enough for Daniel's 
"visualisation in my head" work.  ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 23:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Clint Rynners)
Date: Mon Aug  5 22:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <OFAB1B22C2.9545AAF0-ON42256C0D.001E9A8B@ko.com>

John T. Kwon wrote:
"May we assume that the countdown has begun?"

Mr Kwon

I am of the view that we are not going very far as a species until we
manage to get our act together on Earth and solve the seemingly
insurmountable problems - of our own doing - facing us. Even interplanetary
travel on any significant scale is just not going to happen unless we
instigate a paradigm shift in the way we behave towards each other and
towards life in general. Is it unreasonable to assume that any sentient
species that gains control of its environment has to learn to curb
exponential growth and a corresponding exponential increase in the demand
for resources? Only once this hurdle is overcome will the ability to
harness the resources of a single solar system and the ability to travel to
other solar systems be developed. Perhaps I am making sweeping assumptions,
but this seems to be the case with the only example I have to base my views
on.
 Another point to consider is that we are unlikely to encounter an alien
species in the same technological ballpark as us. Given the age of our
galaxy, and the number of times in the past the conditions for life as we
know them have probably occurred, our encounter with an alien species
travelling through interstellar space is probably going to be them
investigating us in the manner that we would investigate an ant-hill. We
would be more of a curiosity than a threat.

Having said all this, Greg Bear's "The Forge of God" and "The Anvil of the
Stars" left me cold. The notion that we have not been contacted by other
species is because they are all doing their best to hide, much like small
creatures in a jungle full of predators. And we are like a dumb little
bird, sitting on a branch chirping away as loudly as possible to all and
sundry. A memorable analogy from the second book, as a remnant of humanity
seeks to punish the species that destroyed the Earth: they were like a fly
(could have been an ant) entering someone's kitchen, intent on revenge.

Your thoughts?

Regards

Clint Rynners



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 23:56:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Clint Rynners)
Date: Mon Aug  5 22:56:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Aircraft carrier displacement
Message-ID: <OFA1CCF309.C0F79DCF-ON42256C0D.0020C815@ko.com>

"Would anyone here know how many displacement tons a
U.S. aircraft carrier like the "Enterprise" would be?"

There is an article in the Shipyard section of Freelance Traveller about
the dtons and the displacement of water-borne vessels.

Regards

Clint Rynners


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 00:06:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Mon Aug  5 23:06:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Woo Hoo Yepieee the IW are coming to town
Message-ID: <3D500FEB.23377.99926E7@localhost>

Copied from JTAS

From:       Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Date:       23:01:47, Aug 05, 2002
Message-ID: 15305
Group:      General Discussion

Interstellar Wars: A New Direction For Traveller Steve Jackson Games is 
pleased to announce that its license to produce a GURPS version of the 
classic science-fiction roleplaying game Traveller has been extended for 
another three years. By agreement with Far Future Enterprises, the 
GURPS Traveller line, as well as the online Journal of the Travellers' Aid 
Society, will continue at least through the end of 2005.

The new license also gives SJ Games the right to open up a new period in 
the distant past of the classic Third Imperium setting. Long before the 
foundation of the Imperium, the Humans of Terra reached the stars for the 
first time, only to find that they were already owned by someone else. 
Centuries of conflict followed, in which the outnumbered Terrans fought for 
their very survival against a vast but decadent alien empire. Now GURPS 
Traveller will examine this crucial time. The first release in the new line, 
GURPS Traveller: The Interstellar Wars, is tentatively scheduled for a 
Summer 2003 release.

"The Interstellar Wars have always been of great interest to Traveller fans," 
said GURPS Traveller Line Editor Jon F. Zeigler. "It's very exciting to have 
the opportunity to develop this period into a setting for epic adventure." 
Marc Miller, creator of Traveller, agreed. "I'm excited about opening a new 
milieu. There's room for a lot of new things here." Senior Line Editor Loren 
Wiseman, long-time Traveller author and editor, remains at the helm of the 
GURPS Traveller product line. He is assisted by Zeigler, and by Graeme 
Davis, editor of the Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society (JTAS).


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 00:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Mon Aug  5 23:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
Message-ID: <20020806021137.13bb35092d5d49ae9344179b452c1788.in@keywest.kennett.net>

Hi,

This probably displays the depths of my ignorance, but can anybody give me a
description of how a unit's change of command ceremony goes?  I am looking
specifically for the US Navy's protocol, but any nation or service is welcomed.

Thanks,

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

 My Sale List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
 My Want List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 01:28:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Tue Aug  6 00:28:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
References: <20020805183149.2742.79211.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D4F7A61.BA9F032E@ameritech.net>

> Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 09:42:43 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> David Shayne <daveshayne@ameritech.net> writes:
> >
> >> Any clues?
> >
> >I couldn't find that info in any TNE source. There are charts for that
> >in "World Builder's Handbook" for MT. Assuming for the moment that you
> >don't have access to that very worthwhile publication I can give you
> >some typical figures from that source.
> >
> >Smallest SGG radius = 20
> >Average SGG radius ~= 60
> >Highest SGG radius = 100
> >
> >Smallest LGG radius = 110
> >Average LGG radius ~= 175
> >Highest LGG radius = 240
> 
> Applying a realism check here, Jupiter, at size 88, is about the limit
> for any sort of gas giant (assuming TNE size is in thousands of miles,
> like CT size).

Yes it is. And yes from a perfect realism standpoint this is wrong.
However probably not hugely broken since the main thing we need to
determine here is the mass and this gives a reasonable number for mass
while still being usable with the same formula as for small rocky worlds
. (like earth) Besides I tend to the view that wherever reality and the
rules are in conflict it's almost always reality that has it wrong.
(With a special thanks to the late Doug Adams.)

> >
> >Lowest GG density = .1
> >Average GG density ~= .21
> >Highest GG density = .3
> 
> Assuming that's g/cc, that's horribly wrong. 

Standard densities. With Earth = 1. Doesn't look so horibly wrong now
does it? 

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 01:44:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug  6 00:44:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
In-Reply-To: <3D4FA627.26089.39E708@localhost>
References: <3D4E5E7E.26225.7DEF71@localhost> <20020806081755.D27684@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D4FA627.26089.39E708@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020806174314.A28821@freeman.little-possums.net>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> No, I forgot to mention that this model can run the sensor and brain 
> for 7 days.

Phew, that's quite a bit better.  You're right about the huge drain
for PEMS though.  Aren't they meant to be *passive* sensors?


> Perhaps a CAPTOR style sensor platform with a number of small missiles 
> on board would be a workable comprimise, though it'd start getting 
> expensive real quick, and it wouldn't be long before most design 
> committees turned it into a small battle-station by adding point 
> defence, etc. I'm sure.

I strongly suspect so, yes.  Trouble is, they'd probably be right :(
Maybe small mines aren't viable in FF&S?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 02:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mosaic Tapestry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 01:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <20020806021137.13bb35092d5d49ae9344179b452c1788.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <000e01c23d20$3c40c240$2f7de40c@loki>

I'm not sure which details are important to you but the essential bit of
a US Army change of command is the transfer of the colors. The outgoing
commander hands the colors to his commanding officer who immediately
hands them to the incoming commander.

A web page of events surrounding such with photo of the act:
http://www.militarymarksmanship.org/hoidahlcoc.htm

A web page of events surrounding such with parade and all:
http://www.afsouth.nato.int/images/change.htm



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 02:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug  6 01:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com> <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com> <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>

Hal wrote:
> List all of the modifiers to gunner's skill you are using in a 
> missile/antimissile engagement.

Pretty similar to yours.  In more detail:

> Skill 12 laser gunner

A reasonable median.  I've been assuming about 9 for civilians who
have weapons but test-fire them more than they use them, up to about
15 for well-trained and experienced military personnel.

> Gunnery +6 to hit program

I generally use a Complexity 8 targeting program for +9 to hit (not
cumulative with Gunnery program).  Civilian ships will have less,
possibly +4.

> ROF bonus +10

I get only +7 RoF bonus per laser, or +8 (maybe +9) for a standard
"triple laser" turret.  Are you grouping them into larger batteries?

> Total modifiers:
> 12+ 32 + 6 + 10 + 10 + 2 - 39 = 72-39 = 32

Pretty close; I get between 24-37 depending upon circumstances; 32 is
fine.


> Rolling an average of 10 on 3d6 means that you will have succeeded by 
> 22.  Number of missiles successfully engaged in that round will be equal to 
> round((22-3)/2,0) or 19/2 rounded up or 10.

It's rather odd to see a turret that fires only 1 shot per 20 seconds
take out 10 missiles in the 15-30 seconds it takes the missiles to
cross the last half-hex, but them's the rules :(

Yes, that's close to the figures I get.


>  Please note that second edition rules for TRAVELLER have bumped up
> the ROF bonus from their current levels to current levels +3.

That's OK, I've got the second edition rules.  Just bought them a
couple of months ago.


> If more than 10 are inbound, he stops 10 and the rest hit.

That's the problem.  Dton-for-dton, there will always be more than 10
incoming missiles per defending turret using any sane launcher and
guidance design.  A million points of impact damage per turret
*really* hurts.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 02:41:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 01:41:04 2002
Subject: [TML] GURPS MISSILE WARFARE (was The big fleet debate)
In-Reply-To: <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

>> Gunnery +6 to hit program
>
> I generally use a Complexity 8 targeting program for +9 to hit (not
> cumulative with Gunnery program).  Civilian ships will have less,
> possibly +4.

The CDI (C Defense Industries) had a showcase of a lot of different types
of low power lasers.  The trade off was that they increased the rate of
fire to get an increase in ROF bonus.  One interesting development was to
build a specialized targeting computer.  Using GURPS rules, it was a
specilized computer getting a +1 complexity bonus for use with a targeting
computer.


>> ROF bonus +10
>
> I get only +7 RoF bonus per laser, or +8 (maybe +9) for a standard
> "triple laser" turret.  Are you grouping them into larger batteries?

The point defense lasers I built could easily attain that ROF bonus. 
Since lasers in a single turret cannot target different targets, most
Point defense scenarios I had were such that you had a triple turret
firing three lasers at its target.  I will see if I can dig up my archived
copy of the point defense lasers.  But +10 is not hard to achieve :)


>> Total modifiers:
>> 12+ 32 + 6 + 10 + 10 + 2 - 39 = 72-39 = 32
>
> Pretty close; I get between 24-37 depending upon circumstances; 32 is
> fine.
>
>
>> Rolling an average of 10 on 3d6 means that you will have succeeded by
>> 22.  Number of missiles successfully engaged in that round will be
>> equal to  round((22-3)/2,0) or 19/2 rounded up or 10.
>
> It's rather odd to see a turret that fires only 1 shot per 20 seconds
> take out 10 missiles in the 15-30 seconds it takes the missiles to
> cross the last half-hex, but them's the rules :(

Minor thoughts: part of that +10 bonus for Point defense comes of the fact
that the missiles attempting to hit you have to come in from a specific
"region".  This region is a relatively small cone that gets smaller the
closer those missiles come to you.  But you are correct.  There should be
a MAX number of targets that can be engaged by a single laser group per
turn equal to the max number of shots a single laser in the grouping and
put out in a turn.


>> If more than 10 are inbound, he stops 10 and the rest hit.
>
> That's the problem.  Dton-for-dton, there will always be more than 10
> incoming missiles per defending turret using any sane launcher and
> guidance design.  A million points of impact damage per turret
> *really* hurts.

Using the concept that the current weapon systems are designed to operate
against the current enemy weapon technology - try using the GURPS
TRAVELLER missile designs first.  Then do an analysis of weapons in the
TRAVELLER universe.  If you can see where there is an improved methodology
for weapons, post it and we can argue the merits and/or improve any
oversights.  I am still flabberghasted that no one ever noticed that the
FAST drug makes a FAR better alternative for cheap travel than does a
freeze tube!

  But that is another story ;)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 03:22:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Aug  6 02:22:04 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
References: <OF2F3C29E3.8D5E3297-ONCA256C0C.0081279C@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <004501c23d2c$34a85e60$d601bd50@martinjd>

>
> Martin replied:
> >>What is the TL of  the Imperium & the Terran Confederation in the
> >>Year 1000 setting of T20?
> >
> >The Impeirum is TL 14 mostly, with Tl 15 just creeping in over the last
> few
> >years.
>
> OK, this one's got me puzzled, I'll give a serious reply now.


Ooops. Sorry "best tech in the Imperium is mostly TL 14, with 15 creeping
in". Average is lower..


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 03:23:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Aug  6 02:23:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump governor
References: <200208060139.MDR00542@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <004a01c23d2c$35f06ec0$d601bd50@martinjd>

> I don't see these in High Guard - IMTU, they don't exist.  If
> a Jump-4 ship jumps 2 parsecs, they only use 2 parsecs worth
> of fuel.
>
> What was the last canon word on this subject, if any?

Marc's last statement (and confirmed to me in a question I asked a while
ago) was that if you have J-3 fuel and you J-1, you only use J1 of fuel up.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 04:07:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Tue Aug  6 03:07:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Taxes
In-Reply-To: <20020805183149.2742.79211.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208061200220.25606-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Anthony Jackson writes:
>In Striker, the implication is that the imperial military tax is simply 1/3
>of the planet's total military expenditure (with another 1/3 going to the
>subsector fleet, so the world only keeps 1/3 for personal forces).

Incorrect. It's 30% of total military expenditure that goes to the
Imperium with 70% retained for local use. The 30% is divided between
regular and subsector forces. I used to be convinced that somewhere I had
seen a canonical statement to the effect that these Imperial military
taxes were split 50/50 between regular and subsector forces (so 15% to
each), but I've been trying to track down the reference for a while with
no luck, so I'm beginning to doubt. Maybe I made it up myself (anyone who
can come up with the reference will earn my undying gratitude ;-).



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 04:20:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug  6 03:20:05 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1028592330.6838.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020806083856.E27684@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1028592330.6838.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020806201901.C28821@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Ok, that's reasonable.  Now, let's look at a point defense system:

> 9 x rE cell, good for 50 shots: 0.09T, $90k

I get $180k, but that doesn't matter much.

> Dedicated Macroframe: 0.25T, $50k, complexity 11

I get $100k and Complexity 10 at TL12.  It's not hardened, but that's
not likely to be a problem except in really unusual situations.


> Targeting +12: $512k (but probably gets a bulk discoute)

I get $256k, and I agree about the bulk discount ;) However, I can
only seem to fit a $128k +11 program in the macroframe.


> with the Vehicles system beam weapons in space have no Acc cap,

However, in the Vehicles rules maximum accuracy bonus is limited to
Gunnery skill, in this case 25.  There's no point in aiming more than
one second.  That gives you a base of 50 (51 since you can miss by one
and still hit).


> The missile is being fired at one second before impact

You'd better make that at least two seconds else the now unguided
missile will still hit your ship.  You need to do a *lot* more damage
to annihilate it.  (In fact, if there are a lot of missiles, you might
find it very hard to dodge all the "dead" ones...)

That doesn't change the basic to-hit number by much, it's 15- instead
of 16-.  Continuing the progression out to the 1/2D limit, I also get
an average of about 8 missiles killed.

It's a good thing I didn't put thermal superconductors in their
armour ;)


> Hm...that's actually worse than I realized.  Oh well, if they send a
> really big swarm of missiles at you simply dump a canister round in
> front of them.

How *big* a canister round?

You need to disable the missiles about 600 miles out, and they will
probably be approaching from a region 200 miles across at that
distance.  Your canister must disperse about ten trillion objects of
sufficient size to reliably disable a missile, just to cut the numbers
in half.

A 20 MJ x-ray pulse is barely enough to penetrate the DR, so I'll use
that to derive an estimate of particle size required.  At 500 km/s,
that works out to a mass of about 0.16 grams, which I will round down
to 0.1 grams to give some benefit of the doubt to the defending side.

Each canister must thus have a mass of about a million tonnes.  You
would actually need a few times that to account for dispersion.


Your countermissile idea was better.  I've designed and played it
using Vehicles rules, and it is a highly reliable system for
intercepting missiles.

It would probably fail horribly when faced with a "silent launch" from
an untracked ship though.  In my Vehicles test of this scenario, most
of the missiles weren't detected until about 10 seconds before impact.
Even with an immediate launch at 30 gees, they couldn't intercept the
missiles at a safe distance.  In such a case, lasers are about the
only option -- and even then, not a good one.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 04:25:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Aug  6 03:25:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
In-Reply-To: <c8.2aaa2ec2.2a794cbe@cs.com>
Message-ID: <20806.014533.9X1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> >That's John Milius.
>> 
>> So it is . . . he still should have directed Starship Troopers.
>> 
>> LKW
>
> Anyone _OTHER_ than Verhoeven should have directed Starship Troopers.

Yeah, but if he directed Red Dawn, he *definitely* makes the short list.


-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 04:39:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug  6 03:39:04 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEMCEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <20020805082530.D24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEMCEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20020806203758.D28821@freeman.little-possums.net>

Terry Carlino wrote:
[2D maps vs 3D maps]
> What has that to do with anything. A det-laser mine that can fire
> across a 10,000 mile hex, can fire across a 10,000 sphere.

The difference is in how many you need.  A typical interplanetary
"traffic lane" would be a few million miles wide (say 5 million).  On
a 2-D map, you only need 500 mines which is expensive but probably
doable.  On a 3D map you need 250,000 -- that's almost certain to
break your budget given how much they cost each.

Note that I'm not saying mines are ineffective in general, I was
commenting in the thread that started with an attacker trying to use
them to destroy interplanetary commerce.  I don't think that will work
well enough to be worthwhile.


> After doing some searching on my hard drive I find that actual range
> is more like 9 hexes, so in a three dimensional game that would be a
> sphere 180,000 miles across.

9 hexes range is a lot better.  You only need about 800 to cover that
traffic lane.  


> I think the best system we came up with was one where the mines were
> controlled by either a controlling sensor platform or a ship. This
> makes the mines smaller and cheaper. The sensors "paint" the target
> for the passive sensors on the mines to pick up.

Yes, that rings a bell.  Again, more effective in 2D than 3D, but
useful for covering the space near a planet or other "small" area.


> Part of the point would be to force ships attempting to traverse the
> area to slow down, use sensors and weapons to clear the mine
> field. This alone would make them detectable to opposing craft.

I've not found detection of enemy craft to be much of a problem in my
test-bed runs.  Usually the side with mines controls the system, sees
the jump flash of any intruder, and can track everything they
subsequently do.

Maybe I'm just lacking battle experience against other people.  Is
avoiding detection by the defender a possibility in most people's
scenarios?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 04:44:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug  6 03:44:04 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <p0433010bb974d90d92ee@[198.123.22.180]>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com> <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net> <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]> <p0433010bb974d90d92ee@[198.123.22.180]>
Message-ID: <20020806204257.E28821@freeman.little-possums.net>

David P. Summers wrote:
> What is the view toward using nukes for point defense?

My first thought would be "Is it worthwhile?"

Politically, I suspect it lies in a murky area.  In practice, I
suspect that the advantages of using nuclear weapons for defense
aren't sufficient to be worth the chance that the other side might
take it as a sign that it's OK for them to use nukes in offense.

I can see very clear advantages to using nukes offensively...


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 04:46:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug  6 03:46:04 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEMDEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <20020805215043.E25687@freeman.little-possums.net> <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEMDEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20020806204412.F28821@freeman.little-possums.net>

Terry Carlino wrote:
> The only reason I can think of is to allow you to self destruct the
> missile if necessary.

Yes, I guess that makes sense.  Thanks :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 05:15:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Tue Aug  6 04:15:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Ad campaign......
Message-ID: <20020806111409.62570.qmail@web11001.mail.yahoo.com>

Just a thought for an InstellArms catalog:

http://www.missilesandfirecontrol.com/our_products/antiarmor.html

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 06:04:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Aug  6 05:04:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
In-Reply-To: <20020806174314.A28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3D4FA627.26089.39E708@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D5063E3.15285.4B7F3E@localhost>

On 6 Aug 2002 at 17:43, Timothy Little wrote:

> Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > No, I forgot to mention that this model can run the sensor and brain 
> > for 7 days.
> 
> Phew, that's quite a bit better.  You're right about the huge drain
> for PEMS though.  Aren't they meant to be *passive* sensors?

Yeah. I think they must use valves in their signal processor, or 
something. :)

> > Perhaps a CAPTOR style sensor platform with a number of small missiles 
> > on board would be a workable comprimise, though it'd start getting 
> > expensive real quick, and it wouldn't be long before most design 
> > committees turned it into a small battle-station by adding point 
> > defence, etc. I'm sure.
> 
> I strongly suspect so, yes.  Trouble is, they'd probably be right :(
> Maybe small mines aren't viable in FF&S?

It depends what for. That first design I posted was only 1 m^3 in 
volume, and would be quite hard to avoid, I think. the 3 G-turns of 
fuel it had is enough to guarantee that it can get into firing position 
of anything that comes within 60,000km or so (a turn in TNE is 30 
minutes, and a hex 30,000km).

By ditching the rocket the volume can be brought down to 0.6 m^3 and 
the cost to MCr1.423 at TL15, but then the mine can only attack craft 
that come into its hex - within 10-15,000km or so. I tried taking off 
the Electromagnetic Masking (EMM), but that didn't save any significant 
space, money or power.

Actually playing around I see that if a fusion reactor of minimum size 
is put in (assuming TL15 that's 0.1 m^3 and 0.6MW) you can still have 
the basic 1 m^3 mine, and about 4 months fuel, with no noticeable 
increase in cost. In fact the limit to performance suddenly bocomes 
surface area on which to mount the PEMS.

Thus:

TL Guidance Vol Mass AV MCr   G-Turns Warhead Hits Damage  Range
15 Full-Ind 1   1.26 3  1.547 3/3     50kt    1D6  1/14-43 0

Comm Sensor Signatures     Asset
10L  1P     +4/+3/+4/+3/+1 4/8

with a duration for the sensor and brain of 4 months.

Or, for a bigger job:

TL Guidance Vol Mass AV MCr   G-Turns Warhead Hits Damage  Range
15 Full-Ind 7   8.48 3  7.434 3/3     500kt   1D6  1/25-79 0

Comm Sensor Signatures     Asset
10L  5P     +4/+3/+4/+3/+1 6/16

This thing has a short range of 150,000km for its PEMS and a maximum of 
1,200,000km and a year's fuel for the fusion plant that powers its 
sensor and brain (the same plant as the little 'um uses, BTW). It has a 
fairly weak motor because it's still got a crappy little EAPlaC solid 
fuel rocket instead of a nice HEPlaR or thruster system. This way it's 
not sensitive to issues version or canon the same way (FWIW).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 06:09:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Aug  6 05:09:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <200208061208.MEL01964@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>I am of the view that we are not going very far as a species 
>until we manage to get our act together on Earth and solve 
>the seemingly insurmountable problems - of our own doing - 
>facing us. Even interplanetary travel on any significant 
>scale is just not going to happen unless we instigate a 
>paradigm shift in the way we behave towards each other and
>towards life in general. Is it unreasonable to assume that 
>any sentient species that gains control of its environment 
>has to learn to curb exponential growth and a corresponding 
>exponential increase in the demand for resources? Only once 
>this hurdle is overcome will the ability to harness the 
>resources of a single solar system and the ability to travel 
>to other solar systems be developed.

This is the Sagan hypothesis - that sufficiently advanced 
alien life forms will have learned to be "peaceful".  There 
is no reason that this has to be so.  If a warlike species 
came to be dominated by a single high tech faction, through 
limited nuclear war and genocidal action, and used this high 
technology to permanently dominate and subjugate its 
population, it would survive its birth into a nuclear age and 
birth into a starfaring age.

Sufficiently advanced technology makes life on an airless 
rockball possible - why would such a species need to preserve 
its wildlife?  

It is simply not logical to conclude that we must get our act 
together in some peaceful manner.  All that is required is 
that we get our act together - and this could be done today 
by the United States, largely through the use of force.  We 
could solve many problems at once - the population problem, 
the poverty of the third world, the source of most terrorists 
around the world, religions that are inimical to US goals, up 
and coming governments that will consume resources to no good 
end - imagine the tyranny of technological might that could 
annihilate several billion people in a few weeks, and spend 
the world's resources on going to the stars.

A peaceful Sagan-like world that ran across a violent world 
where both were capable of building antimatter rockets would 
be annihilated by the violent world in the time it took for 
the rockets to cross the distance.  The peaceful would die 
with startled looks on their faces as the radars showed the 
near-C projectiles coming in.

Scary, isn't it?  But I think that across the stars, this is 
the far more likely scenario.  Sagan was a dreamer, a wishful 
thinker whose idea of transgression was cheating on his wife.

When I see pictures of children overseas holding AK-47s, I 
see a future where alien races are holding antimatter rockets 
and near-C rocks.  Same picture.  It's not a good idea to 
shout, "Here I am!" in a jungle like that.
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 06:21:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 05:21:04 2002
Subject: [TML] GURPS Interstellar Wars
Message-ID: <20020806.081920.-291705.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

Many of you have probably already run across this, but for those who
haven't, check out Evil Stevie's Daily Illuminator
(http://www.sjgames.com/ill/) for the 8/6/02 entry.


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"




________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 07:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Tue Aug  6 06:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] GURPS Interstellar Wars
In-Reply-To: <20020806.081920.-291705.0.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <000601c23d4f$49ec0330$0b01a8c0@duck>

> Many of you have probably already run across this, but for those who
> haven't, check out Evil Stevie's Daily Illuminator
> (http://www.sjgames.com/ill/) for the 8/6/02 entry.

I hadn't see it yet, but it does sound interesting.  The only thing
I hope is that this doesn't mean they are abandoning their alternate
history.

They have just gotten to the cusp of 1120 and actually having history
move forward.  It will be quite disappointing if instead history just
stops at 1120 as they abandon it for the Interstellar Wars.

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 08:41:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Tue Aug  6 07:41:04 2002
Subject: [TML] The cloak
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D1C@USCHM203>

I once ran through the Maxcy dorm parking lot at USC wearing only sneakers
and a Spuds McKenzie beach towel around my neck (yelling "SCIENCE!" at the
top of my lungs for reasons that now escape me)...does that count as wearing
a cloak? 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 10:11:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Aug  6 09:11:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
In-Reply-To: <3D4F7A61.BA9F032E@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028650204.113.ajackson@ping>

David Shayne writes:

> Standard densities. With Earth = 1. Doesn't look so horibly wrong now
> does it? 

Ok, that's not as bad.  

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 10:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Aug  6 09:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <p0433010cb974db4e1b41@[198.123.22.180]>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028650656.7515.ajackson@ping>

David P. Summers writes:

> You are assuming close packed spheres.

Actually, I'm assuming a flat 'shell' of fighters.  Volume covered is actually
third order in range.
> ground per sensor by moveing around).  Also, If you take sensor input 
> from multiple sensors and combine them, it is possible to generate 
> detection of things that couldn't be detected within the range of 
> anyone sensor.

GURPS doesn't really cover array sensors (if you're going to apply that bit of
realism, there's a lot of other realism tweaks you can make as well), but
interferometry really isn't going to help much with deep space detection, as
(a) it mostly improves resolution, not sensitivity, and (b) it massively
reduces coverage, meaning you're likely to miss objects entirely due to looking
in the wrong direction.
 
>  Lastly, the advantage that a fighter gives only its 
> own position, and not that of the capital ship, if it is caught first 
> is non-trivial

If stealth were particularly meaningful or interesting in space, sure.  In
practice, having multiple small ships just guarantees you'll be spotted, due to
other quirks in the sensor rules.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 10:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Aug  6 09:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020806201901.C28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028651185.1051.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:

> > with the Vehicles system beam weapons in space have no Acc cap,
> 
> However, in the Vehicles rules maximum accuracy bonus is limited to
> Gunnery skill, in this case 25.

Nope, the Vehicles rule is that the Acc bonus is not limited by Gunnery skill.

> How *big* a canister round?
> 
> You need to disable the missiles about 600 miles out, and they will
> probably be approaching from a region 200 miles across at that
> distance.

Huh?  At 600 miles, they're 2 seconds out; assuming 12G missiles, they can
travel up to 240 meters in that time, which means all the missiles need to be
within an area that small.  Assuming a missile is 0.3 meters across, I need to
set up a cloud of about a million objects.  At 300 miles per second, a 1mm
warhead does 6dx110 (which will oneshot missiles), so a 250mm warhead
(equivalent to a single missile) should be able to scatter on the order of 15
million bead, which is plenty to cover the required area at a high level of
reliability.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 10:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 09:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <74.20e88a02.2a814935@aol.com>

--part1_74.20e88a02.2a814935_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Now that our good news is out in the public, it might be a good time to 
mention
that I've set up a Yahoo! discussion group for current and potential GURPS
Traveller freelancers. The home page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gtfreelance/

This isn't the *only* channel one can use to get information to and from me,
to be sure -- email to jon@sjgames.com works fine too! Still, I hope to use 
the
discussion group to help get news out and to work with authors to plan future
releases. If you're interested in writing for GURPS Traveller, you're more 
than
welcome to sign on.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

--part1_74.20e88a02.2a814935_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Now that our good news is out in the public, it might be a good time to mention
<BR>that I've set up a Yahoo! discussion group for current and potential GURPS
<BR>Traveller freelancers. The home page is at:
<BR>
<BR>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gtfreelance/
<BR>
<BR>This isn't the *only* channel one can use to get information to and from me,
<BR>to be sure -- email to jon@sjgames.com works fine too! Still, I hope to use the
<BR>discussion group to help get news out and to work with authors to plan future
<BR>releases. If you're interested in writing for GURPS Traveller, you're more than
<BR>welcome to sign on.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_74.20e88a02.2a814935_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 10:33:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 09:33:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <74.20e88a02.2a814935@aol.com>

--part1_74.20e88a02.2a814935_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Now that our good news is out in the public, it might be a good time to 
mention
that I've set up a Yahoo! discussion group for current and potential GURPS
Traveller freelancers. The home page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gtfreelance/

This isn't the *only* channel one can use to get information to and from me,
to be sure -- email to jon@sjgames.com works fine too! Still, I hope to use 
the
discussion group to help get news out and to work with authors to plan future
releases. If you're interested in writing for GURPS Traveller, you're more 
than
welcome to sign on.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

--part1_74.20e88a02.2a814935_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Now that our good news is out in the public, it might be a good time to mention
<BR>that I've set up a Yahoo! discussion group for current and potential GURPS
<BR>Traveller freelancers. The home page is at:
<BR>
<BR>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gtfreelance/
<BR>
<BR>This isn't the *only* channel one can use to get information to and from me,
<BR>to be sure -- email to jon@sjgames.com works fine too! Still, I hope to use the
<BR>discussion group to help get news out and to work with authors to plan future
<BR>releases. If you're interested in writing for GURPS Traveller, you're more than
<BR>welcome to sign on.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_74.20e88a02.2a814935_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 10:36:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 09:36:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <74.20e88a02.2a814935@aol.com>

--part1_74.20e88a02.2a814935_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Now that our good news is out in the public, it might be a good time to 
mention
that I've set up a Yahoo! discussion group for current and potential GURPS
Traveller freelancers. The home page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gtfreelance/

This isn't the *only* channel one can use to get information to and from me,
to be sure -- email to jon@sjgames.com works fine too! Still, I hope to use 
the
discussion group to help get news out and to work with authors to plan future
releases. If you're interested in writing for GURPS Traveller, you're more 
than
welcome to sign on.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

--part1_74.20e88a02.2a814935_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Now that our good news is out in the public, it might be a good time to mention
<BR>that I've set up a Yahoo! discussion group for current and potential GURPS
<BR>Traveller freelancers. The home page is at:
<BR>
<BR>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gtfreelance/
<BR>
<BR>This isn't the *only* channel one can use to get information to and from me,
<BR>to be sure -- email to jon@sjgames.com works fine too! Still, I hope to use the
<BR>discussion group to help get news out and to work with authors to plan future
<BR>releases. If you're interested in writing for GURPS Traveller, you're more than
<BR>welcome to sign on.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_74.20e88a02.2a814935_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 10:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Aug  6 09:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15E5@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

What about artists?  ;)
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: JFZeigler@aol.com [mailto:JFZeigler@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 8:46 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .


Now that our good news is out in the public, it might be a good time to mention 
that I've set up a Yahoo! discussion group for current and potential GURPS 
Traveller freelancers. The home page is at: 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gtfreelance/ 

This isn't the *only* channel one can use to get information to and from me, 
to be sure -- email to jon@sjgames.com works fine too! Still, I hope to use the 
discussion group to help get news out and to work with authors to plan future 
releases. If you're interested in writing for GURPS Traveller, you're more than 
welcome to sign on. 

---------- 
Jon F. Zeigler 
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller 
jon@sjgames.com 
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events." 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 11:33:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Aug  6 10:33:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The big fleet debate
Message-ID: <20020806173248.66761.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>

>What is the view toward using nukes for point defense?  Is it OK 
>since it is "defensive"?  I think the Imperium wouldn't allow it 
>(why do you have a nuke in the first place?) and it would only
>matter for fleet battles anyway...  So it would come down to any
>agreements, unspoken or otherwise, between the major powers (Impies
>vs Zhos, Impies vs Solos, Hivers vs the K'Kree) and whether it is
>seen as provoking retaliation.

I think you're mixing apples and oranges a little there.  Here are
the categories I see:

I. War between Imperial member states
A. On a world:  Possession or use of nuclear weapons for any purpose
will trigger Imperial intervention.  The underlying reason is that
any use of nuclear weapons, offensive or defensive, will irreparably
harm the world.
B. In space:  Nuclear weapons are allowed, but only limited commerce
raiding is allowed.  

II.  War between the Imperium and another state:  Anything goes, as
there is no general convention on warfare.  The objectives of the
warring parties determine how destructive they will be.  A state
seeking to take territory from another is unlikely to render the
target territory valueless.  A state seeking to create a buffer
between itself and a neighbor may think that a swath of dead and
barren systems is the best defense, but, on the other hand, may think
that thriving, independent systems are better.  

If one state starts destroying the surfaces of another's worlds, it
must accept that the other state will be able to jump past its
defenses and destroy the surface of its worlds as well.  There is
something of a balance of terror among the major states.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 11:40:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Aug  6 10:40:14 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Arbellatra
Message-ID: <20020806173952.59128.qmail@web20418.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Fred Ramen" <von_rammen@msn.com>

>My interpretation may also explain her meteoric rise to high command

>at such a young age--perhaps her title of Grand Admiral of the
>Marches was a ceremonial one, or rank was determined by noble
>standing to a much greater degree in the antebellum Imperium. 
>(Indeed, perhaps Arbellatra reformed the military to make it more
>egalitarian, not only to prevent a rival from rising in a fashion 
>like her own, but to insure loyalty to the Emperor and the Imperium 
>and not the individual commander, as seems to be the case with
>Plankwell and the other Emperors of the Flag.)

A few years ago (maybe more than a few -- I think it was 1996 or so),
I posted an idea to the TML that the antebellum Imperial Navy
followed a feudal model, in which warships, squadrons, and fleets
were in effect fiefs.  The Admiral was also a Duke, and was
responsible for raising the fleet, which meant paying for it.  His or
her Counts were commodores, his Marquises captains, and so on.  Thus
every crew member was a vassal owing loyalty to his or her commanding
officer.  One of Arbellatra's principal reforms was to develop a
professional navy, better suited to defending against ihatei and
Zhodani than fighting over the crown.

--Glenn


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 12:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Aug  6 11:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <20020806180404.28551.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng)

>This probably displays the depths of my ignorance, but can anybody 
>give me a description of how a unit's change of command ceremony
>goes?  I am looking specifically for the US Navy's protocol, but any
>nation or service is welcomed.

I had the good fortune to watch my high school friend Col. Steven R.
Corbett, U.S.A., assume command of the 91st support something or
other brigade at Fort Lewis, Washington, on 14 September 2001.  The
ceremony went something like this:

At the parade ground, seats had been set up under awnings on either
side of the reviewing stand.  The reviewing stand had a podium and
microphone, and there were big speakers somewhere.  

The guests, military and civilian, took seats at their own pace.  The
military personnel were wearing camouflage; the civilians dressed
casually.  I didn't see anyone in a dress uniform that day.  

The members of the brigade formed up in units on the parade ground. 
There were eight or ten units, each with its commanding officer in
front.  There were about 100 people in each unit, suggesting that the
units were companies.  

A mid-level officer (hereinafter the MC) opened the ceremonies by
welcoming everyone and announcing the national anthem.  We stood
while a recording of the national anthem played.  At some point
around then, the color guard marched onto the parade ground from the
audience's left, stopping and facing right at the reviewing stand. 
The colors included the national flag, the brigade's flag, and two
other unit flags (I think of subordinate units within the brigade).  

The base commander had a few remarks to welcome Col. Corbett and wish
the best for his retiring predecessor (whose name I have forgotten). 
The outgoing and incoming commanders then gave brief speeches; I
don't recall who went first.  Then the outgoing commander took the
incoming commander on an inspection of the formation.  They walked
around the entire unit clockwise while martial music played.  No,
they did not play the Liberty Bell March, although those of us in the
audience who had gone to high school together were expecting it.

During the inspection, the MC gave us a little background on the
medieval origins of the inspection.  

When the inspection was completed, the outgoing CO asked Col. Corbett
if he accepted the brigade, and Col. Corbett said that he did.  Then
the brigade's senior NCO and the base commander came out onto the
parade ground and passed the unit flag around as the four of them
stood in a circle.  If I recall correctly, the base commander passed
the flag to the senior NCO, who passed it to the outgoing CO, who
passed it to the new CO, who passed it back to the senior NCO.  The
flagpole crossed each CO's heart, signifying his willingness to give
his life for the unit and to do his utmost for its welfare.  

Then the color guard took back the flags, and the four guys returned
to the reviewing stand.  The base commander had a few closing
remarks, and then they played martial music as the color guard left
the field, followed by each of the other units.  

Then all of the military personnel went back to work.  Early in the
evening, the new CO threw a big barbecue at his house on post, and we
all ate and drank too much.

--Glenn



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 12:50:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Donald McKinney)
Date: Tue Aug  6 11:50:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Cleon V (was Arbellatra)
Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E03668975@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com>

--=_IS_MIME_Boundary
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

Actually, much more interesting than Arbellatra, is her direct predecessor, Cleon V.

Cleon V appointed Arbellatra to the troublesome position as Grand Admiral of the Marches, restored Imperial rule over the Sylean Core region, and basically, restored Imperial rule - except that a few Admirals and Nobles weren't ready for it yet, and they betrayed him.

Arbellatra's shoving Gustus off the throne is totally legitimate, as she's simply fulfilling her role as Cleon V's last supporter. 

Interestingly enough, a few years ago I wrote a brief document for my personal use, entertaining the notion that Arbellatra was Cleon V's naval attache, companion and close personal friend, that sending her to the Marches was because he truly felt that the Marches would need the best commander he could send against the Zhodani, and that when Arbellatra returned to the Core, it was all the anger of a lover that pushed her to do it.  I also explained the elevation of Archduke Soegz as the replacement of one of Emperor Joseph's (the man who defeated Cleon V, I hope I'm remembering right) backers...

The minute the Zhodani and Vargr were defeated and capable nobles in place to hold against them (like the Marquis of Regina), she turned her forces around and went back to Core...

I also used a Dreadnought named the "Cleon V" as the Corridor Fleet's flagship :)


DonM.

--__--__--

Message: 8
From: "Fred Ramen" <von_rammen@msn.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 22:03:33 -0400
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra (WAS: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes:

"Dibs Arbellatra.  One of my favorite people in Traveller history.  Someday
I'd love to write a sourcebook for the Arbellatra Regency."

Aye, mine too. Such a book might finally answer the question of just what
kind of leader she was.

IMHO, the model for Arbellatra is Augustus--not Julius--Caesar. That is, she
was more a illiant politician than a brilliant general. I base this on a few
factors:

1) She essentially lost the 2FW but still managed to declare victory and
mobilize the Marches behind her. (Remember, the Imperium ceded territory to
the Zhodani after the war, and Library Data mentions that the final
engagement resulted in a "stalemate" between the two sides. She basically
one the war the same way the U.S. "won" the War of 1812--by not losing as
badly as expected.)

2) It seems doubtful to me that even after a decade of civil war her
provincial fleet could cow the Vland Sector Fleet--yet she must have had the
cooperation of Vland sector, as others have pointed out, in order to
triumph. Again, this demonstrates her political acumen.

3) Her masterly stroke of refusing the crown is remarkably similar to
Augustus' own "retirement" from government--while in truth retaining a firm
grip on the reins of power. (The people of Rome demanded at one point that
he publish a list of candidates he favored, so they would know who to vote
for--not from coercion, but from a devotion to Augustus.)

My interpretation may also explain her meteoric rise to high command at such
a young age--perhaps her title of Grand Admiral of the Marches was a
ceremonial one, or rank was determined by noble standing to a much greater
degree in the antebellum Imperium. (Indeed, perhaps Arbellatra reformed the
military to make it more egalitarian, not only to prevent a rival from
rising in a fashion like her own, but to insure loyalty to the Emperor and
the Imperium and not the individual commander, as seems to be the case with
Plankwell and the other Emperors of the Flag.)

Fred "Arbellatra Divina" Ramen
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 12:51:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Tue Aug  6 11:51:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Landgrab
References: <B9742E4B.68481%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000201c23d7a$64a16b40$b300a8c0@imogen>

Does anyone have (or know of) some software  or  spreadsheet  for
creating ground vehicles using MT rules?  I need to create  about
a dozen different military vehicles for my Efate landgrab.

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 12:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Burns)
Date: Tue Aug  6 11:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
Message-ID: <20020806185605.50939.qmail@web10605.mail.yahoo.com>

I've been following this thread with some interest and
wondering if I should throw in my .02 crimps or not.
The reason for my interest is I'm in a PBEM TNE game
where we were given a few (24 ISTR) mines by our
handlers. So I went here:

http://www.downport.com/bard/bard/bardvera.html

and scrolling down to section 6500 - Satellites
checked out the mines and boosters listed there. I
never thought to check that the design was solid but
it looks good enough.

Anyway, given our mission and limited mines, I'm
thinking we'll use them one of two ways.

First as pursuit deterrents (drop one or two to drift
back along our vector and either the purser takes fire
and/or must manuever around buying us time to get
away. I'm trusting that even if he does spot one a
commander has to assume there may be more, and if one
blows up in his face same thing.

Second as 'debris' around any sensitive sights we find
to secure it till we get back, or to protect our
report drops till they are picked up by the courier,
who will have the disarming codes too.

I'm just getting back into TNE after a lot of years so
I still have to check the sensor rules but at least in
TNE I think spotting these things is going to be very
tough. Unlike GT where it seems you can spot those
nasty c-rocks at a few parsecs while they are ramped
up to speed, note the entry to j-space and be waiting
for the emergence a week later which will also show up
easily, right in the middle of your defence solution.
Oops, a rant? Well at least 'twas short ;)

Dan "far-trader" Burns

______________________________________________________________________ 
Post your ad for free now! http://personals.yahoo.ca

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:02:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:02:04 2002
Subject: [TML] J-4 X-boats, a justification
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEBGILAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Many people argue about many aspects of the X boat system,
saying that there are some less then optimal chooses in it's
makeup.

This is one possible argument in keeping the J-4 aspect to the
system.  The Xboat system is a part of a communication's system
designed with military and official communications in mind.  While
postal unions and private merchants carry cargo of one type or
another as mail, a great deal of information is carried in electronic
form.  Getting information to a patrolling cruisron, informing
a Marine TF that their services are needed, relaying the answer to
a question of Gribble Bugs in the Groats are things that need to
relayed to worlds off the Xboat network.  To do this regular off
the rack Type 's' scouts are employed,  By spacing Xboat stations no more
then jump four apart, a message can be broadcast to all worlds along a
Xboat trunk in one shot.  With communications delays as long as they
are already leaving holes in between xboat stations that require an
extra week or two to reach outlying badly compromised to utility of the
system.

I see an X boat station as a headquarters, a ground based station, the
assigned tenders and Xboats, and a flock of regular scouts assigned to the
station, in theory with enough scout to reach all systems within range in
one
shot, more likely with enough to hit all type C or better ports, important
installations and systems the navy says are likely to hold units on patrol.
At the same time a number of boats also float between systems, trying to
hit all systems or a frequent basis.  these are the boat that are routinely
performing donation studies, re surveys, update investigations and so forth.

these are the boats that are slated to end up in detached scout's hands,
having served as front line scouts then courier scout already.



________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:23:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:23:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Ok, now what
Message-ID: <200208061922.MEZ12591@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

First I keep reading that plasma weapons are not possible - 
the bolt would dissipate a short distance from the barrel.  
And now, at the tail end of the following article, 

http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/channel_awst.jsp?
view=story&id=news/aw080524.xml

I read that a plasma weapon is possible.
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:39:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:39:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <0964D40E.1498BB17.02280B06@aol.com>

Okay, that was strange.

I actually sent three *different* messages to the TML this
morning, and what appeared was three copies of the same
message. Fortunately, that was the only message that
absolutely had to get out, so no harm done. Go figure.

Thanks for your patience, everyone.

---------- 
Jon F. Zeigler 
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller 
jon@sjgames.com 
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:42:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:42:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Airsoft shooter
Message-ID: <B9757480.689C1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

I need to get educated about airsoft guns.  Any airsoft enthusiasts on the
tml, please contact me off list if you don't mind answering some stupid
questions.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:44:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:44:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra (WAS: warship optimization in traveller
 CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <00fa01c23ced$9eedde60$331df7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020806113510.45efd91c@pop.mindspring.com>

At 10:03 PM 8/5/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes:
>
>"Dibs Arbellatra.  One of my favorite people in Traveller history.  Someday
>I'd love to write a sourcebook for the Arbellatra Regency."
>
>Aye, mine too. Such a book might finally answer the question of just what
>kind of leader she was.

Focusing on Core during the Regency would be a big factor.  Starting at the
refusal of the crown, with pretenders and factions still fighting, to her
gracious assumption of the title of Empress.  A great deal happened in the
seven years between 622 and 629.

>IMHO, the model for Arbellatra is Augustus--not Julius--Caesar. That is, she
>was more a illiant politician than a brilliant general. I base this on a few
>factors:

Good model.  I was thinking a bit of Hitler, personally.  Same kind of
personal magnetism.

>1) She essentially lost the 2FW but still managed to declare victory and
>mobilize the Marches behind her. (Remember, the Imperium ceded territory to
>the Zhodani after the war, and Library Data mentions that the final
>engagement resulted in a "stalemate" between the two sides. She basically
>one the war the same way the U.S. "won" the War of 1812--by not losing as
>badly as expected.)

This might have come from misunderstanding Zhodani war goals.  Arbellatra
probably knew from the start that the Zhodani wanted to remove the Imperium
from Zhodani territory, not destroy the Imperium.  But playing up the image
of the Zho's as barbarians helped her cause.  A draw was as good as a
victory to her.

>2) It seems doubtful to me that even after a decade of civil war her
>provincial fleet could cow the Vland Sector Fleet--yet she must have had the
>cooperation of Vland sector, as others have pointed out, in order to
>triumph. Again, this demonstrates her political acumen.

She had a good line.  In this aspect, she's much like St. Jean d'Arc.  The
"Maid of Mora" driving to restore the Imperium!  She would find ready
converts in Deneb and Corridor. She probably played a different game with
the Vilani.  Promises of increased power in the court, culminating with her
son's marriage to a Vilani noblewoman in 679.  As she drew closer to
Capital, I'm sure that pretender fleets defected en masse rather than face
annihilation.

>3) Her masterly stroke of refusing the crown is remarkably similar to
>Augustus' own "retirement" from government--while in truth retaining a firm
>grip on the reins of power. (The people of Rome demanded at one point that
>he publish a list of candidates he favored, so they would know who to vote
>for--not from coercion, but from a devotion to Augustus.)

It is her that I am of two minds..  I sort of like the idea that she
honestly meant to find a surviving Zhunastu heir; only taking the throne
when that proved impossible.

>My interpretation may also explain her meteoric rise to high command at such
>a young age--perhaps her title of Grand Admiral of the Marches was a
>ceremonial one, or rank was determined by noble standing to a much greater
>degree in the antebellum Imperium. (Indeed, perhaps Arbellatra reformed the
>military to make it more egalitarian, not only to prevent a rival from
>rising in a fashion like her own, but to insure loyalty to the Emperor and
>the Imperium and not the individual commander, as seems to be the case with
>Plankwell and the other Emperors of the Flag.)

"Nothing succeeds like success" they say.  I've always sensed that along
with being politically brilliant, she was possibly the greatest strategic
and tactical mind the Imperium ever saw.  She was only 28 when the war
broke out, according to canon.  I'd prefer to push her date of birth back
to 567, making her 48 at the beginning of the war.  This at least gives her
the age to have had a fairly long career and been at least an experienced
Captain or junior Admiral.  This would, IMHO, make her seizure of the
fleets far more acceptable.  No one is going to listen to a pup of a Ltd.
Commander.

I think the title of Grand Admiral was given to her for no better reason
than she knew how to fight.  Look at all the generals that Lincoln broke
before finding Grant. She demonstrated the ability to win.  Before that,
the post maybe had been more political, but consider the event of the 1FW,
I somehow doubt it.  The Marches had just been cursed with a string of bad
leaders.

Wit my revised birth year, she is now 48 when the 2FW breaks out, 53 when
it ends.  She had to leave before the end of the war, since she defeats
Gustus in 622.  Have her, and a small fleet leave in late 618, leaving the
war to a trusted group of under commanders.  The history is murky here.
Perhaps the Zhodani were broken by mid-618, and the last ~18 months were
mopping up and retaking worlds?

She arrives in the Core no later than early 621, when a large armada. Along
the way, she defeats several pretenders, and forces a battle with Gustus at
the Second Battle of Zhimaway.  Proceeding to Capital, she declares herself
regent in late 622, at the age of 55.  Becomes Empress in 629 at 62, Dies
in 666 at 99.  Marries late, first son born in 624.

Does this time line work for people?
-- 

Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.
gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html

Author of GT: Ground Forces                               

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:45:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:45:49 2002
Subject: [TML] GURPS Interstellar Wars
In-Reply-To: <20020806.081920.-291705.0.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020806113717.35e7dade@pop.mindspring.com>

At 08:19 AM 8/6/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>Many of you have probably already run across this, but for those who
>haven't, check out Evil Stevie's Daily Illuminator
>(http://www.sjgames.com/ill/) for the 8/6/02 entry.

Note to self:  Check the author solicitation page when the good computer
gets home today...

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:47:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:47:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNGEMBEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <3.0.5.16.20020805112347.358f6ef0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020806114206.364f75c8@pop.mindspring.com>

At 08:57 PM 8/5/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>>Here's a fun game to play if you have Ground Forces.  You are a Force
>>Lieutenant assigned to a Caen-class ship.  You are lying in your bunk, and
>>feeling a bit peckish.  How do you get to the officer's mess?  :)

>Let me start by saying I absolutely love 95% of Ground Forces. I think the
>colors great. I like everything from the unit structure information, to the
>battledress designs, to the modular grav design system.

Thanks, and a tip'o the helmet to David Pulver for the MVD system.

>The one thing I can't stand is the ship designs. I loath the Caen. Among
>other problems: Where are the navy ratings bunked? They certainly wouldn't
>be with the Marines, not since the rest of canon says that they should be
>living in staterooms, which I would suppose are separate from the officer's
>staterooms. I could go on and on about the failings of the design, but I
>don't want to rant.

I have problems with the Caen deckplans myself.  It was designed as a very
"close" ship, and I did put in that the rest of the Navy thinks the crews
that work the Caens are oddballs.  If you have an improved design, I'd love
to see it.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:49:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:49:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15E5@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020806114452.35e793a8@pop.mindspring.com>

At 09:43 AM 8/6/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>What about artists?  ;)

Back in your hole, polygon boy!  When we want something from you, we'll do
the usual thing.  Toss a contract and art specs in your cage and pray you
don't ruin our finely crafted prose with your "art."

:)
-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of
limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:50:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:50:57 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  The cloak
In-Reply-To: <20020806004801.59831.qmail@web20422.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020806114720.4637dd7c@pop.mindspring.com>

At 05:48 PM 8/5/2002 -0700, you wrote:

>ca. 1100s, they are in fashion at the Imperial court, and therefore
>commonly worn by nobles everywhere.  Commoners only wear them when
>the weather demands it.

I'd think that fashion would trickle down, and you see knock-offs of famous
designers and K-Martish places with their own lines.

IMTU, they're common.  Useful things, cloaks.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:52:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:52:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <159.120df85e.2a809f36@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020806115248.35e748b0@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:40 PM 8/5/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>I would agree.  But as you will observe in Afghanistan (and arguably Serbia) 
>they did it by putting someone else's young men into the mud -- and not all 
>that many of those.  I seem to remember something along those lines in 
>Gibbons ....

That army was just laying there...

Seriously, from our point of view, Afghanistan was as close to a perfect
situation as you can get.  All we had to do was provide air & logisitcal
support, and the population in the are being attacked wasn't too thrilled
with the current government.  They all aren't going to be that way.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:53:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:53:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <20020806021137.13bb35092d5d49ae9344179b452c1788.in@keywest
 .kennett.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020806120321.46dfdc16@pop.mindspring.com>

At 02:13 AM 8/6/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>Hi,
>
>This probably displays the depths of my ignorance, but can anybody give me a
>description of how a unit's change of command ceremony goes?  I am looking
>specifically for the US Navy's protocol, but any nation or service is
welcomed.

Well, from my point of view, an Army change of command ceremony (c. 1985)
consists of the following:

1. Polish brass.

2. Drop off dress greens at dry cleaners.

3. Hear that the order has been changed, we'll be in battle gear.

4. Curse about blowing $15 on dry cleaning.

5. Drop off good BDUs at dry cleaners.  (Good meaning these puppies will
never see the field, and are worn only for inspections.)

6. Pay some kid at the PX ten bucks to spit shine my jump boots.

7. Run to Ranger Joe's for clean TA-50 pieces.

8. Get haircut.

9. Practise marching.

10. Get assigned to be a roadgaurd again, due to lack of marching ability.

11. Get inspected.

12. March to Brigade parade ground.

13. Stand in formation.

14. Old Bastard makes a speech.

15. Wonder what difference all this marching will make when the Soviets
come over the border.

16. Something involving the unit colors, but you can't see.

17. New Bastard makes a speech.  Officers love to make speeches.

18. Fall asleep at attention.

19. Wake up at Parade Rest.

20. March back to barracks, replace dart board picture of Old Bastard with
New Bastard, get drunk.

(I'm in a silly mood today.)
-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Animals who are not penguins can only wish they were.
-Chicago reader, 10/15/82

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:55:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:55:14 2002
Subject: [TML] The cloak
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D1C@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020806120600.46dfd798@pop.mindspring.com>

At 10:40 AM 8/6/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>I once ran through the Maxcy dorm parking lot at USC wearing only sneakers
>and a Spuds McKenzie beach towel around my neck (yelling "SCIENCE!" at the
>top of my lungs for reasons that now escape me)...does that count as wearing
>a cloak? 

No, but it will count against you at the commitment hearing...
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"Genetically" we are nearly identical to fruit flies.  On the
other hand, as a species we write better string quartets. 
				- Rich Clancey


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:57:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:57:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <2BD831D2.5F2F4C54.02280B06@aol.com>

> What about artists?  ;)

Hey, Jesse. Artists are more than welcome to join the
Yahoo! group too, although you should be aware that art
is Not My Department. Any queries about art for the GT
line will probably end up being passed along to other
people at SJG.

---------- 
Jon F. Zeigler 
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller 
jon@sjgames.com 
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:59:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:59:11 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
References: <200208061208.MEL01964@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D50270F.5080001@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:

> This is the Sagan hypothesis - that sufficiently advanced 
> alien life forms will have learned to be "peaceful".  There 
> is no reason that this has to be so.  If a warlike species 
> came to be dominated by a single high tech faction, through 
> limited nuclear war and genocidal action, and used this high 
> technology to permanently dominate and subjugate its 
> population, it would survive its birth into a nuclear age and 
> birth into a starfaring age.

Give the history of such factions here, I rather doubt that this is the 
case. If these sentients are anything like humans, they do not have the 
infinite capacity for evil you presuppose.

Humans have proven to be very good at routing around opression, and 
eroding it from it's weak points.

Even the total police states of Romania and East Germany fell, sometimes 
in a matter of *weeks*, once the Soviet threat was shown to be hollow. 
As brutal as the Sucuritat was, and the fact htat they had pretty much 
co-opted the entire Romanian population into their web of informants, 
they dissolved into a scattering of scared bullies, trying to outrun the 
lynch mobs.

Rome *was* a high-tech faction that ruled through genocidal action (when 
needed) It's hegemony lasted only a few hundred years, and then only 
over a rather small area of the world.

Your *perfect evil dictator* is unlikely to ever exist. Whilst they 
might make for pretty tale in SF novels, the history of our planet 
towards such hegemony does not support this.

High-tech communications almost guarantees this...look at the struggles 
opressive regimes here have with the now humble fax machine, let alone 
the internet.

A regime that had such total control over information would unlikely be 
able to manage the technologicical advances needed to get much beyond LEO.

You cannot simultaneously restrict the flow of information and maintain 
a growing 'research economy', any more than you can manage a monetaryu 
economy the same way. (The other reason the Soviets fell)

After all, who won the race to the moon?

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:01:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (markc@peak.org)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:01:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <18690-22002826195016420@M2W075.mail2web.com>

Jesse DeGraff <Jesse=2EDeGraff@netapp=2Ecom> writes:

> What about artists?  ;)

Sure, why not?  Do you know any? >^)

    - Mark C=2E

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:03:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:03:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15EC@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

No more grav tanks you Penguin Boy ;)

And that should read:
"When we want something from you, we'll do the usual thing.  *At the last minute,* toss a contract and, *if you're lucky*, art specs in your cage and pray you don't ruin our finely crafted prose with your "art."

Jesse


-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas E. Berry [mailto:gridlore@pop.mindspring.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 4:45 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .


At 09:43 AM 8/6/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>What about artists?  ;)

Back in your hole, polygon boy!  When we want something from you, we'll do
the usual thing.  Toss a contract and art specs in your cage and pray you
don't ruin our finely crafted prose with your "art."

:)
-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of
limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:06:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:06:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15EE@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Gee, ALL the clowns are coming out of the woodwork ;)  BTW, is the December shoot going to happen?
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: markc@peak.org [mailto:markc@peak.org]
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 12:50 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .


Jesse DeGraff <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> writes:

> What about artists?  ;)

Sure, why not?  Do you know any? >^)

    - Mark C.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:08:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:08:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020806120321.46dfdc16@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020806200438.2448.qmail@web11004.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
wrote:
> At 02:13 AM 8/6/2002 -0400, you wrote:
> >Hi,
> >
> >This probably displays the depths of my ignorance,
> but can anybody give me a
> >description of how a unit's change of command
> ceremony goes?  I am looking
> >specifically for the US Navy's protocol, but any
> nation or service is
> welcomed.
> 
> Well, from my point of view, an Army change of
> command ceremony (c. 1985)
> consists of the following:
> 
> 1. Polish brass.
> 
> 2. Drop off dress greens at dry cleaners.
> 
> 3. Hear that the order has been changed, we'll be in
> battle gear.
> 
> 4. Curse about blowing $15 on dry cleaning.
> 
> 5. Drop off good BDUs at dry cleaners.  (Good
> meaning these puppies will
> never see the field, and are worn only for
> inspections.)
> 
> 6. Pay some kid at the PX ten bucks to spit shine my
> jump boots.
> 
> 7. Run to Ranger Joe's for clean TA-50 pieces.
> 
> 8. Get haircut.
> 
> 9. Practise marching.
> 
> 10. Get assigned to be a roadgaurd again, due to
> lack of marching ability.
> 
> 11. Get inspected.
> 
> 12. March to Brigade parade ground.
> 
> 13. Stand in formation.
> 
> 14. Old Bastard makes a speech.
> 
> 15. Wonder what difference all this marching will
> make when the Soviets
> come over the border.
> 
> 16. Something involving the unit colors, but you
> can't see.
> 
> 17. New Bastard makes a speech.  Officers love to
> make speeches.
> 
> 18. Fall asleep at attention.
> 
> 19. Wake up at Parade Rest.
> 
> 20. March back to barracks, replace dart board
> picture of Old Bastard with
> New Bastard, get drunk.
> 
> (I'm in a silly mood today.)
> -- 
> 
> Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
>   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
> 
  >>
  Yeah....but your memory is about as good as mine. 

  OTOH, if it wasn't for my dazzling marching skills,
I'd have never gotten out of so much work.....that,
and the fact that I jumped to voluteer for it, knowing
in advance that selections were being made for mess
duty that day.......

  Michael "Hide & Slide" Cessna
  Box-kicker Supreme
  >>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:14:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:14:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020806113510.45efd91c@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <3.0.5.16.20020806113510.45efd91c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m3u1m7oie8.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes:

> She was only 28 when the war broke out, according to canon.  I'd
> prefer to push her date of birth back to 567, making her 48 at the
> beginning of the war.  This at least gives her the age to have had a
> fairly long career and been at least an experienced Captain or
> junior Admiral.  This would, IMHO, make her seizure of the fleets
> far more acceptable.  No one is going to listen to a pup of a Ltd.
> Commander.

They will if she's That Good.  Perhaps in the IN of the time,
midshipmen were inducted at 13.  Also, recall that we're talking about
the military of a feudal state; if one shows great promise, there's no
inherent reason one might not rise _very_ quickly.  Same if one's the
girlfriend of an Emperor...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Digital files cannot be made uncopyable, any more than water can be made
not wet.                   --Bruce Schneier on `copy protection' schemes

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:23:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:23:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020806173248.66761.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020806173248.66761.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p04330104b975de6771f8@[143.232.119.186]>

At 10:32 AM -0700 8/6/02, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>I. War between Imperial member states
>A. On a world:  Possession or use of nuclear weapons for any purpose
>will trigger Imperial intervention.  The underlying reason is that
>any use of nuclear weapons, offensive or defensive, will irreparably
>harm the world.
>B. In space:  Nuclear weapons are allowed, but only limited commerce
>raiding is allowed.

Isn't the _possession_ of nuke illegal (the Traveller Adventure has 
nuke anti-ship missils as being illegal).  That is what I would do, 
since I'm not sure you want anyone to be in a postion to nuke a 
planet....

>II.  War between the Imperium and another state:  Anything goes, as
>there is no general convention on warfare.  The objectives of the
>warring parties determine how destructive they will be.  A state
>seeking to take territory from another is unlikely to render the
>target territory valueless.  A state seeking to create a buffer
>between itself and a neighbor may think that a swath of dead and
>barren systems is the best defense, but, on the other hand, may think
>that thriving, independent systems are better.

Of course limited by unspoken agreements and threats of retaliation.

>
>If one state starts destroying the surfaces of another's worlds, it
>must accept that the other state will be able to jump past its
>defenses and destroy the surface of its worlds as well.  There is
>something of a balance of terror among the major states.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:24:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:24:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15E5@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15E5@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <p04330105b975df61ad02@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:43 AM -0700 8/6/02, DeGraff, Jesse wrote:
>What about artists?  ;)
>Jesse


Do you have any experience?  :-)
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:31:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff D. Greenly)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:31:18 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <sd4ff8f8.002@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>

Keeping in mind that it's been a while...

A Naval change of command reflects the fact that the Captain of the
vessel/unit/whatever IS the vessel/unit/whatever. So, the departing
officer is "piped aboard" to the podium and announced as "<Unit Name>,
arriving" He gives his speech to the hands, then the ship's bell is rung
(even in a land station) and he is "piped over the side" and announced
by his name and rank. The new officer goes through the same thing in
reverse. He/She is announced by name and rank, gives a speech, then is
announced as "<unit name>, departing" and the ships bell is rung. There
are a bunch of salutes and "permission to come aboard, sirs" and so on,
but the one essential fact to remember is that the new and old
commmanding officers are changing their identities. "USS Rochester,
Arriving" goes back to being Commander Schmuck, USN, and Commander
Foobar becomes "USS Rochester" Just as a interesting side note, they've
been doing an abbreviated form of this aboard the Space Station,
although it's not really a change of command. There's a ship's bell on
board and it's rung when the Shuttle docks up or breaks away with the
announcement "<ShuttleName>, Arriving (or Departing)" 

I think that because the Imperial Navy has such a long history, it
probably has a lot of cool traditions. Anything that you threw in for
color, like Marines in some traditional dress uniforms standing behind
the "quarterdeck", the transfer of a baton, staff or whistle, maybe a
reading of the ship's history...

Jeff

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:36:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:36:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra (WAS: warship optimization in traveller
 CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020806113510.45efd91c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208061330150.8694-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 6 Aug 2002, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> >IMHO, the model for Arbellatra is Augustus--not Julius--Caesar. That is, she
> >was more a illiant politician than a brilliant general. I base this on a few
> >factors:

Please don't make her so much of a hypocritical prig.

> Good model.  I was thinking a bit of Hitler, personally.  Same kind of
> personal magnetism.

EEK!!!  But I like Arbellatra!

> >1) She essentially lost the 2FW but still managed to declare victory and
> >mobilize the Marches behind her. (Remember, the Imperium ceded territory to
> >the Zhodani after the war, and Library Data mentions that the final
> >engagement resulted in a "stalemate" between the two sides. She basically
> >one the war the same way the U.S. "won" the War of 1812--by not losing as
> >badly as expected.)
> 
> This might have come from misunderstanding Zhodani war goals.  Arbellatra
> probably knew from the start that the Zhodani wanted to remove the Imperium
> from Zhodani territory, not destroy the Imperium.  But playing up the image
> of the Zho's as barbarians helped her cause.  A draw was as good as a
> victory to her.

Ah, yes.

> >2) It seems doubtful to me that even after a decade of civil war her
> >provincial fleet could cow the Vland Sector Fleet--yet she must have had the
> >cooperation of Vland sector, as others have pointed out, in order to
> >triumph. Again, this demonstrates her political acumen.
> 
> She had a good line.  In this aspect, she's much like St. Jean d'Arc.  The
> "Maid of Mora" driving to restore the Imperium!  She would find ready
> converts in Deneb and Corridor. She probably played a different game with
> the Vilani.  Promises of increased power in the court, culminating with her
> son's marriage to a Vilani noblewoman in 679.  As she drew closer to
> Capital, I'm sure that pretender fleets defected en masse rather than face
> annihilation.

I like Arbellatra la Pucelle much better than Arbellatra as Hitler.

> It is her that I am of two minds..  I sort of like the idea that she
> honestly meant to find a surviving Zhunastu heir; only taking the throne
> when that proved impossible.

I do, too.

> I think the title of Grand Admiral was given to her for no better reason
> than she knew how to fight.  

Amen!
 
> She arrives in the Core no later than early 621, when a large armada. Along
> the way, she defeats several pretenders, and forces a battle with Gustus at
> the Second Battle of Zhimaway.  Proceeding to Capital, she declares herself
> regent in late 622, at the age of 55.  Becomes Empress in 629 at 62, Dies
> in 666 at 99.  Marries late, first son born in 624.
> 
> Does this time line work for people?

It will for me.

Kiri :)
**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:55:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:55:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra (WAS: warship optimization in traveller
 CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020806113510.45efd91c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208061330150.8694-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 6 Aug 2002, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> >IMHO, the model for Arbellatra is Augustus--not Julius--Caesar. That is, she
> >was more a illiant politician than a brilliant general. I base this on a few
> >factors:

Please don't make her so much of a hypocritical prig.

> Good model.  I was thinking a bit of Hitler, personally.  Same kind of
> personal magnetism.

EEK!!!  But I like Arbellatra!

> >1) She essentially lost the 2FW but still managed to declare victory and
> >mobilize the Marches behind her. (Remember, the Imperium ceded territory to
> >the Zhodani after the war, and Library Data mentions that the final
> >engagement resulted in a "stalemate" between the two sides. She basically
> >one the war the same way the U.S. "won" the War of 1812--by not losing as
> >badly as expected.)
> 
> This might have come from misunderstanding Zhodani war goals.  Arbellatra
> probably knew from the start that the Zhodani wanted to remove the Imperium
> from Zhodani territory, not destroy the Imperium.  But playing up the image
> of the Zho's as barbarians helped her cause.  A draw was as good as a
> victory to her.

Ah, yes.

> >2) It seems doubtful to me that even after a decade of civil war her
> >provincial fleet could cow the Vland Sector Fleet--yet she must have had the
> >cooperation of Vland sector, as others have pointed out, in order to
> >triumph. Again, this demonstrates her political acumen.
> 
> She had a good line.  In this aspect, she's much like St. Jean d'Arc.  The
> "Maid of Mora" driving to restore the Imperium!  She would find ready
> converts in Deneb and Corridor. She probably played a different game with
> the Vilani.  Promises of increased power in the court, culminating with her
> son's marriage to a Vilani noblewoman in 679.  As she drew closer to
> Capital, I'm sure that pretender fleets defected en masse rather than face
> annihilation.

I like Arbellatra la Pucelle much better than Arbellatra as Hitler.

> It is her that I am of two minds..  I sort of like the idea that she
> honestly meant to find a surviving Zhunastu heir; only taking the throne
> when that proved impossible.

I do, too.

> I think the title of Grand Admiral was given to her for no better reason
> than she knew how to fight.  

Amen!
 
> She arrives in the Core no later than early 621, when a large armada. Along
> the way, she defeats several pretenders, and forces a battle with Gustus at
> the Second Battle of Zhimaway.  Proceeding to Capital, she declares herself
> regent in late 622, at the age of 55.  Becomes Empress in 629 at 62, Dies
> in 666 at 99.  Marries late, first son born in 624.
> 
> Does this time line work for people?

It will for me.

Kiri :)
**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 15:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Tue Aug  6 14:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com> <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net> <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <20020805075953.A24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <3436.64.8.3.28.1028520584.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <20020805215043.E25687@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3D4F3B54.62F77189@mindspring.com>

Timothy Little wrote:
> 
> hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> > There is always the ability to design bigger and faster missiles using
> > GURPS VEHICLES and the guidelines presented with TRAVELLER itself.
> 
> Yes, that's what I'm wondering about.  Do I want to design better
> weapons and tactics for my Traveller game, at the expense of making it
> less like Traveller?  Or do I try to rationalise the existing ones to
> maintain compatibility with what other people have done?
> 
> >  A friend of mine created an inertial guided missile that removes
> > the explosive warhead from the missile and turned it into a kinetic
> > kill device.
> 
> Yes; either remove the chemical warhead or replace it with a fusion
> warhead.  A chemical explosive makes little sense.  Even the standard
> missiles accelerate to 72 km/s in the first round -- putting a
> chemical explosive in them is a bit like putting a spring-loaded
> boxing glove on an anti-tank penetrator.

I always considered the HE as essentially a frag grenade for ships. A
small cloud of debris having a better chance to hit. 

> 
> > The missile frigate then starts a high speed run against the
> > intended target and launches its missiles outside of sensor range of
> > an enemy ship.
> 
> That works under the standard rules, too.  I've had vague thoughts in
> the same direction, but didn't actually get round to testing them.
> 
> > Do the math and see how much damage a single missile moving at 90
> > hexes per turn does ;)

Thanks for a nasty tactic. The Forinians IMMTU are going to be using
that. I was going to have to bring in more help. I think it will be
quite a suprise to my players.



-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline. It
helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear
weapons, but the very least you need a beer.
         - Frank Zappa


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 16:14:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Aug  6 15:14:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The big fleet debate
Message-ID: <20020806220841.64120.qmail@web20417.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>

>>B. In space:  Nuclear weapons are allowed, but only limited
commerce
>>raiding is allowed.
>
>Isn't the _possession_ of nuke illegal (the Traveller Adventure has 
>nuke anti-ship missils as being illegal).  That is what I would do, 
>since I'm not sure you want anyone to be in a postion to nuke a 
>planet....

That is certainly a workable approach.  The Imperium has to balance
removing the most effective anti-ship weapons from their law-abiding
merchants against the risk of misuse of those weapons (under many
very easy to effectuate scenarios) against worlds.  

--Glenn


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 16:21:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Aug  6 15:21:11 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <20020806221929.46060.qmail@web20418.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Jeff D. Greenly" <jgreenly@hsc.wvu.edu>
>
>I think that because the Imperial Navy has such a long history, it
>probably has a lot of cool traditions. Anything that you threw in
for
>color, like Marines in some traditional dress uniforms standing 
>behind the "quarterdeck", the transfer of a baton, staff or whistle,
>maybe a reading of the ship's history...

Definitely make up some cool stuff and tell us about it!  Don't
forget to include weird stuff that comes out of the Vilani
traditions, too.

--Glenn



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 16:25:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Tue Aug  6 15:25:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
References: <20020806021137.13bb35092d5d49ae9344179b452c1788.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <3D504BD3.B4316290@mindspring.com>

Cheng Tseng wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> This probably displays the depths of my ignorance, but can anybody give me a
> description of how a unit's change of command ceremony goes?  I am looking
> specifically for the US Navy's protocol, but any nation or service is welcomed.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> C.T.

From my experience of five change of command ceremonies. Two at
pierside*
Enlisted are taken out of their workspaces and put into the most
uncomfortable uniform and put at ease in the sun, usually on asphalt or
concrete. *Or a steel deck if available. 
After an interminable wait some O's come out and congratulate each other
on what fine people they are and what a good job they've done and are
going to do. 
Then the enlisted are sent back to work and the O's have a party.

-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
If you can't convince them, confuse them.
                -Harry S. Truman

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 16:33:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fred Ramen)
Date: Tue Aug  6 15:33:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
Message-ID: <003401c23d98$a70d8680$da29f7a5@pctframen>

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>

>>"Nothing succeeds like success" they say.  I've always sensed that along
with being politically brilliant, she was possibly the greatest strategic
and tactical mind the Imperium ever saw.  She was only 28 when the war
broke out, according to canon.  I'd prefer to push her date of birth back
to 567, making her 48 at the beginning of the war.  This at least gives her
the age to have had a fairly long career and been at least an experienced
Captain or junior Admiral.  This would, IMHO, make her seizure of the
fleets far more acceptable.  No one is going to listen to a pup of a Ltd.
Commander.<<

I'm probably in a tiny minority here, but I remain unconvinced about
Arbellatra's strategic brilliance. Certainly her conduct of the 2FW does not
seem to have a personal stamp upon it the way Norris' saving strategy in the
5FW does. Canonical info on the war is spotty, of course, but it is
described as a "holding action" accompanied by commerce raids. When the
dreadnoughts are finally constructed, Arbellatra does not lead them on a
reconquest of the Marches, but merely forces a stalemate...and then promptly
concedes territory to the Zhodani, as well as separating several other
worlds from the Imperium. Compare Norris, who does in fact lead a reconquest
that restores the status quo antebellum, as well as changing the strategic
makeup of the states in the Marches in the Imperium's favor.

>>I think the title of Grand Admiral was given to her for no better reason
than she knew how to fight.  Look at all the generals that Lincoln broke
before finding Grant. She demonstrated the ability to win.  Before that,
the post maybe had been more political, but consider the event of the 1FW,
I somehow doubt it.  The Marches had just been cursed with a string of bad
leaders.<<

Yes, but in the canonical timeline she is simply too young, and Cleon V is
around for too short a time for this to work. (He rules for three years, the
first of which is the first year of the 2FW; this would imply that
Arbellatra could not have been appointed by him prior to 616 or so, unless
she was already known to him for some reason.)

I myself like the idea that the Alikhalikoi family were prominent supporters
of Cleon's faction, or perhaps loyalists who resisted Olav. They may have
been pretenders to a duchy in the Marches, or had had their title revoked.
What may have happened is that an older member of the Alikhalikoi family was
actually appointed by Cleon, but due to death or other happenstance was
unable to actually serve. Arbellatra was then chosen because she was the
least controversial candidate--her family had the commission, she was the
heir, and her youth would allow her to be manipulated by the other nobles.
Her brilliance was that she ended up dominating them. (To bring in Doug's
Hitler analogy, compare the way the right wing thought they would dominate
Hitler in 1933. Or how Lincoln routinely outmanuevered his cabinet members
political ambition.)

>>Wit my revised birth year, she is now 48 when the 2FW breaks out, 53 when
it ends.  She had to leave before the end of the war, since she defeats
Gustus in 622.  Have her, and a small fleet leave in late 618, leaving the
war to a trusted group of under commanders.  The history is murky here.
Perhaps the Zhodani were broken by mid-618, and the last ~18 months were
mopping up and retaking worlds?

She arrives in the Core no later than early 621, when a large armada. Along
the way, she defeats several pretenders, and forces a battle with Gustus at
the Second Battle of Zhimaway.  Proceeding to Capital, she declares herself
regent in late 622, at the age of 55.  Becomes Empress in 629 at 62, Dies
in 666 at 99.  Marries late, first son born in 624.<<

I have no problem with this as an alternate timeline. I guess my point is
merely that this kind of surgery is necessary to produce Arbellatra the
Conqueror. Canon allows for a different picture to be read between the
lines, IMHO. To bring back Augustus, Arbellatra may have succeeded in
keeping the throne because, like Octavian, she was just enough of a general
to have won the war but obviously not some one who could only rule by virtue
of the sword. That is, as an UNprofessional Admiral, she would have the
support of a populace thoroughly sick of what the professional soldiers had
been doing for twenty years.

All IMHO, YMMV, IANAGD, etc.

Fred Ramen


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 16:33:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug  6 15:33:28 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1028651185.1051.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020806201901.C28821@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1028651185.1051.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020807082917.A30389@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Nope, the Vehicles rule is that the Acc bonus is not limited by
> Gunnery skill.

Where does it say that?  I must have missed it :/


> Huh?  At 600 miles, they're 2 seconds out; assuming 12G missiles,
> they can travel up to 240 meters in that time, which means all the
> missiles need to be within an area that small.

You're assuming the missiles only use their thrusters transversely in
the last 2 seconds, which is what I (as attacker) would want you to
think ;)


Consider the trajectories of a salvo of missiles that initially
accelerate at just under 12G for two turns, aimed up to 11 degrees
away from the victim (it works out to 11.8G minimum axial component).
They all choose a different off-axis direction within that cone, and
maintain the same axial component of acceleration.

Then they all use up to 7G of transverse acceleration for two more
turns to curve back in toward the victim while still maintaining more
than 9G axial component (actually up to 9.7G).

All their trajectories pass through the victim with a forward
component of 42 hexes per turn, but their sideways component varies by
up to 14 hexes per turn in random directions.

Oops, that means I miscalculated earlier.  At 600 miles range the
region of incoming missiles has a *radius* of 200 miles, for a
diameter of 400 miles.  Better multiply the canister mass by 4.

As an aside, if we're using Vehicles to calculate impactor damage,
then the incoming missiles do more than four times as damage when they
hit (average 6dx19700(5) each) than they do in GURPS Traveller
(6dx4300(5) each).


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 16:43:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue Aug  6 15:43:04 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
In-Reply-To: <006301c23ce3$2bcea180$eeb18b90@computer>
References: <006301c23ce3$2bcea180$eeb18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <3d50427f.7657767@post.demon.co.uk>

"Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com> writes:

>The counter mix from Invasion Earth might be worth studying.

There aren't any TL15 units on either side. =20

The Imperial Marines are 78% TL14 (1 division, 3 regiments) plus 2 IM
regiments at TL12 and TL13.

The Imperial regular army is 70% TL14, 20% TL13, 10% TL12.

Imperial colonial forces (which account for about 30% of the total
Imperial strength) are TL11 - TL14, with TL12 being the norm.

Solomani regular troops are 43% TL14, 42% TL 13, 11% TL12 and 4% TL11.
The local Terran guerrillas are all TL 13.

Stephen
(Incidentally, I remember there being a single 1-point TL 16 unit in
=46FW, which I always assumed to be the player characters!)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 16:43:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Aug  6 15:43:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
References: <003401c23d98$a70d8680$da29f7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <3D5050EB.9050601@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Fred Ramen wrote:

> I'm probably in a tiny minority here, but I remain unconvinced about
> Arbellatra's strategic brilliance. Certainly her conduct of the 2FW does not
> seem to have a personal stamp upon it the way Norris' saving strategy in the
> 5FW does. Canonical info on the war is spotty, of course, but it is
> described as a "holding action" accompanied by commerce raids. When the
> dreadnoughts are finally constructed, Arbellatra does not lead them on a
> reconquest of the Marches, but merely forces a stalemate...and then promptly
> concedes territory to the Zhodani, as well as separating several other
> worlds from the Imperium. 

Probably this is because she knows she needs to a) bring an end ASAP to 
the 2FW, and b) She needs those Dreadnaughts to end the rebellion, 
rather than throwing them into a likely bloody fight to beat the Zhodani 
back.

The Zho's, being in an expansionist mood at the moment, are only too 
happy to help her achieve her goals.

Her goal was not to *win* the 2FW, but to *end* it with enough power and 
fleets strength to go fight the REAL battle, that of re-unifying the 
Imperium.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 16:43:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue Aug  6 15:43:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Aircraft carrier displacement
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D0D@USCHM203>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D0D@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <3d514ac0.9770968@post.demon.co.uk>

"Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> writes:

>	5 tons gross ship displacement(in today's nautical terms)=3D1
>displacement ton in Traveller.

On that basis, then:

Battleship HMS Victory (TL3) 2164 tons =3D just over 400 dtons (the size
of a patrol cruiser)
=46rigate USS Constitution (TL3) 1576 tons =3D 300 dtons
=46rigate HMS Warrior (TL4) 9137 tons =3D 1800 dtons
Monitor USS Monitor (TL4) 987 tons =3D 200 dtons (a free trader)
Typical Spanish or Portuguese ship from the age of exploration,
15th/16th century (TL2) 80 tons =3D 16 dtons.  (Magellan or Columbus
would have thought a Caen-class marine dropship's bunkroom
accommodation to be sheer luxury...)

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 17:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Aug  6 16:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <m3y9bqqsbp.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20806.152713.5c8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:
>> 
>> We extend POW's and noncombatants a certain amount of "courtesy" and
>> expect the same from our enemies.  Our culture (at least for now)
>> calls for this courtesy to be extended even if it is not returned.
>
> IMHO civilian opinion that's foolish.  The deal should be play by our
> rules or we play by none.  That is, we'll refrain from using NBC
> weapons, we'll take prisoners, we'll treat them right, we'll avoid
> hitting civilians for exactly so long as the other side does.  If they
> don't, then we don't; instead we run up the black flag and fight
> dirty.  It's not as though they'd retaliate by fighting dirty; they
> already do.

Thing is, we've already set the precedent that failing to abide by the
rules during a war will get those responsible tried as *criminals*
after the war. 

And yes, we were rather hypocritical in that we should have tried the
people on our own side who were responsible for things like Dresden.

We *do* have the stated policy of responding to use of weapons of mass
destruction with weapons of mass destruction. And we carefully avoid
stating that we will retaliate "in kind". Odds are that we'd respond to
bioagents with nukes, simply because have nukes, and frankly they are a
hell of a lot *safer* for all concerned. 

Chemical attacks I'm not sure. 

But shooting prisoners or mistreating them is against our *laws*. Which
is one reason why a number of folks are more that a bit upswet about
the fact that at the current time we are *violating* our own laws when
it comes to the people taken prisoner in Afghanistan and held at
Guantanamo Bay. They haven't been accorded prisoner of war status, nor
have they been classified as criminals awaiting trial.

We are damaging our own legal system *badly* by doing this. And that
and other similar things we are doing are actually more apt to destroy
the US than the actions of the terrorists!

If we can't follow our own laws except when it is convenient, we are
all at the mercy of anybody in a position of authorty.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 17:33:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 16:33:12 2002
Subject: [TML] army usage
Message-ID: <a6.2a3d2ddd.2a81b626@aol.com>

 >>I would agree.  But as you will observe in Afghanistan (and arguably 
Serbia) 
 >>they did it by putting someone else's young men into the mud -- and not 
all 
 >>that many of those.  I seem to remember something along those lines in 
 >>Gibbons ....
 >
 >That army was just laying there...

I was thinking of Rome's extensive use of auxiliaries and allies towards the 
end.
 
 >Seriously, from our point of view, Afghanistan was as close to a perfect
 >situation as you can get.  All we had to do was provide air & logisitcal
 >support, and the population in the are being attacked wasn't too thrilled
 >with the current government.  They all aren't going to be that way.

(Actually, it wasn't the population that opposed the Taliban.  it was the 
Northern Alliance.  The only reason the NA isn't pillaging the citizens like 
they were doing before the Taliban kicked them out is because they're 
preoccupied spending all that money that we bribed them with.  Sort of a 
Marshall Plan for bandit chiefs.  Seems to have worked so far.)

Well, one wouldn't think so, but as I understand it the plans for attacking 
Iraq involve a repeat of Afghanisan, using "rebels" in the north and south to 
do the actual fighting while we provide airstrikes.  Again:  "Army?  What 
Army?"  To my knowledge the army made not one twitch towards deployment 
during the Afghan battle -- either the authorities were supremely confident 
that they didn't need the army, or they had misgivings about deploying it in 
its present condition.  One wouldn't think Iraq would roll up so handily, but 
no-one thought the Taliban would roll up so fast either.  Apparently we're 
going to find out.

On the other hand, if the latest briefs are any indication and we launch any 
military action against the house of Saud, then I think we're going to have 
to occupy everything from Libya to Jakarta.  That _will_ require an army, and 
I'm not sure we have one.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 17:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (markc@peak.org)
Date: Tue Aug  6 16:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <244640-2200282623322384@M2W096.mail2web.com>

Jesse DeGraff <Jesse=2EDeGraff@netapp=2Ecom> writes:

> Gee, ALL the clowns are coming out of the woodwork ;
> BTW, is the December shoot going to happen?

Umm=2E=2E=2E December=2E  Why do you ask? :^)


(Seriously, it's on Saturday, Dec=2E 7th=2E)

    - Mark C=2E


--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 17:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Tue Aug  6 16:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <003401c23d98$a70d8680$da29f7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOECFILAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Fred Ramen
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 3:29 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Arbellatra


From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>

>>"Nothing succeeds like success" they say.  I've always sensed that along
with being politically brilliant, she was possibly the greatest strategic
and tactical mind the Imperium ever saw.  She was only 28 when the war
broke out, according to canon.  I'd prefer to push her date of birth back
to 567, making her 48 at the beginning of the war.  This at least gives her
the age to have had a fairly long career and been at least an experienced
Captain or junior Admiral.  This would, IMHO, make her seizure of the
fleets far more acceptable.  No one is going to listen to a pup of a Ltd.
Commander.<<

I'm probably in a tiny minority here, but I remain unconvinced about
Arbellatra's strategic brilliance. Certainly her conduct of the 2FW does not
seem to have a personal stamp upon it the way Norris' saving strategy in the
5FW does. Canonical info on the war is spotty, of course, but it is
described as a "holding action" accompanied by commerce raids. When the
dreadnoughts are finally constructed, Arbellatra does not lead them on a
reconquest of the Marches, but merely forces a stalemate...and then promptly
concedes territory to the Zhodani, as well as separating several other
worlds from the Imperium. Compare Norris, who does in fact lead a reconquest
that restores the status quo antebellum, as well as changing the strategic
makeup of the states in the Marches in the Imperium's favor.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Ahe doesn't need to be a genius she has thirdly things going for her when
she
marches on the Captal.  First, Her force have been defending the Imperium
against
outsiders and she is out to save the rest of the imperium.  Secondlym, she
has
the core of Plankwell's flee, ;png in the tooth perhaps but still a bunch
with a
tradition of winning.  The ones she beats have been mixing it up in the Core
cector for a long time, repair and maintainance facilities have been gought
over
conquered and reconquered, not entirely bloodlessly for decdes now.  Her
fleet
battleworn though it may be, it is still in better shape then its
competition.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>I think the title of Grand Admiral was given to her for no better reason
than she knew how to fight.  Look at all the generals that Lincoln broke
before finding Grant. She demonstrated the ability to win.  Before that,
the post maybe had been more political, but consider the event of the 1FW,
I somehow doubt it.  The Marches had just been cursed with a string of bad
leaders.<<

Yes, but in the canonical timeline she is simply too young, and Cleon V is
around for too short a time for this to work. (He rules for three years, the
first of which is the first year of the 2FW; this would imply that
Arbellatra could not have been appointed by him prior to 616 or so, unless
she was already known to him for some reason.)

I myself like the idea that the Alikhalikoi family were prominent supporters
of Cleon's faction, or perhaps loyalists who resisted Olav. They may have
been pretenders to a duchy in the Marches, or had had their title revoked.
What may have happened is that an older member of the Alikhalikoi family was
actually appointed by Cleon, but due to death or other happenstance was
unable to actually serve. Arbellatra was then chosen because she was the
least controversial candidate--her family had the commission, she was the
heir, and her youth would allow her to be manipulated by the other nobles.
Her brilliance was that she ended up dominating them. (To bring in Doug's
Hitler analogy, compare the way the right wing thought they would dominate
Hitler in 1933. Or how Lincoln routinely outmanuevered his cabinet members
political ambition.)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Or a combination, she lucked out early, and won some critical battles.
Like Hitler, she is a good tactician, not a strategist.  She was however a
good pokitical leader and even if Arabella the war leader varely won
Arabella the protector was superb in saving the Imperium.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>Wit my revised birth year, she is now 48 when the 2FW breaks out, 53 when
it ends.  She had to leave before the end of the war, since she defeats
Gustus in 622.  Have her, and a small fleet leave in late 618, leaving the
war to a trusted group of under commanders.  The history is murky here.
Perhaps the Zhodani were broken by mid-618, and the last ~18 months were
mopping up and retaking worlds?

She arrives in the Core no later than early 621, when a large armada. Along
the way, she defeats several pretenders, and forces a battle with Gustus at
the Second Battle of Zhimaway.  Proceeding to Capital, she declares herself
regent in late 622, at the age of 55.  Becomes Empress in 629 at 62, Dies
in 666 at 99.  Marries late, first son born in 624.<<

I have no problem with this as an alternate timeline. I guess my point is
merely that this kind of surgery is necessary to produce Arbellatra the
Conqueror. Canon allows for a different picture to be read between the
lines, IMHO. To bring back Augustus, Arbellatra may have succeeded in
keeping the throne because, like Octavian, she was just enough of a general
to have won the war but obviously not some one who could only rule by virtue
of the sword. That is, as an UNprofessional Admiral, she would have the
support of a populace thoroughly sick of what the professional soldiers had
been doing for twenty years.

All IMHO, YMMV, IANAGD, etc.

Fred Ramen

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Likewise

jml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 17:46:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Tue Aug  6 16:46:04 2002
Subject: [TML] army usage
In-Reply-To: <a6.2a3d2ddd.2a81b626@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0208070140370.363897-100000@svati>

On Tue, 6 Aug 2002 Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> >Seriously, from our point of view, Afghanistan was as close to a perfect
> >situation as you can get.  All we had to do was provide air & logisitcal
> >support, and the population in the are being attacked wasn't too thrilled
> >with the current government.  They all aren't going to be that way.
>
>(Actually, it wasn't the population that opposed the Taliban.  it was the
>Northern Alliance.  The only reason the NA isn't pillaging the citizens like
>they were doing before the Taliban kicked them out is because they're
>preoccupied spending all that money that we bribed them with.  Sort of a
>Marshall Plan for bandit chiefs.  Seems to have worked so far.)

I really think you should do some research on the situation in Afganisthan
and how everything went down before blurting things out. The main population
of Afganisthan was opposed to the Taliban, which is mainly from a tribe to
the south west (I think). The Taliban was however heavily enforcing their rule
and the Northern Alliance was the only once with enough manpower and equipment
to fight back.

Also don't think there was any bribing necessary. The Northern Alliance was
losing and losing bad, until the Americans interfeered and provided supported
the NA with heavy bombing.

Tommy Grav
-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 17:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Aug  6 16:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <200208062357.MFJ01994@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Jeff D. Greenly" says
<snip naval change of command>

Don't forget - the outgoing commander has to do an inventory 
with the new commander, and the new commander gets to sign 
for the ship and all of the equipment in it.
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 18:01:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Aug  6 17:01:05 2002
Subject: [TML] OT:  December ARPC shoot
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15F3@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Good to hear!  I'm desperately going to try to make it up again finally, as the financial situation has improved a little.  Providing of course that I can get a new roomate and don't have to keep paying twice the rent like I am now :(  Also, I'm going to invite Erin again, and maybe I can get my "girlfriend" to go too ;)

Jesse


-----Original Message-----
From: markc@peak.org [mailto:markc@peak.org]
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 4:32 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .


Jesse DeGraff <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> writes:

> Gee, ALL the clowns are coming out of the woodwork ;
> BTW, is the December shoot going to happen?

Umm... December.  Why do you ask? :^)


(Seriously, it's on Saturday, Dec. 7th.)

    - Mark C.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 18:01:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Aug  6 17:01:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
Message-ID: <200208070000.MFJ02183@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

alan spik says
<snip the enlisted view of the change of command>

the sergeant major kept me and a couple of other guys in the 
rear of the formation.  we were supposed to watch out for 
people about to fall out, and as discreetly as possible, move 
forward and get them out of formation.

hot sun, standing in one place for a long time, etc...
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 18:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 17:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The cloak
Message-ID: <OFE82EC4F7.A922AAEF-ONCA256C0E.0000643B@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

And Brian gave us a wonderfully-UNwanted mental image:
>I once ran through the Maxcy dorm parking lot at USC wearing only 
sneakers
>and a Spuds McKenzie beach towel around my neck (yelling "SCIENCE!" at 
the
>top of my lungs for reasons that now escape me)...does that count as 
wearing
>a cloak? 

Only if it was a Cloak of Invisibility.

The _cloak_ being invisible, I mean.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 18:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Tue Aug  6 17:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
References: <20020806203610.24254.48308.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D506687.7BD7A795@earthlink.net>

Mark C. posted:
> 
> Jesse DeGraff <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> writes:
> 
> > What about artists?  ;)
> 
> Sure, why not?  Do you know any? >^)
> 
>     - Mark C.

Oh, gawd, puh-LEEZE let him on it. Maybe SJG will one
day market his graphics on T-shirts (HINT, HINT!).

Do you know how difficult it is for me to NOT
print T-shirts of his stuff for personal use?

David Smart

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 18:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Aug  6 17:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: army usage
Message-ID: <20020807002817.99096.qmail@web20417.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>

>I really think you should do some research on the situation in 
>Afganisthan and how everything went down before blurting things out.
>The main population of Afganisthan was opposed to the Taliban, which
>is mainly from a tribe to the south west (I think). 

Tommy, you should do some research, too.  The Taliban was composed
primarily of Pakistani and Saudi volunteers who called themselves
"students" (of Islam).  Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, with the knowledge
if not the support of the United States government, formed and
trained the Taliban and sent them to end the civil war in
Afghanistan, which they did.  The peace they imposed was in many ways
worse than the war.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 18:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 17:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
Message-ID: <OF0802E7D8.0474AB00-ONCA256C0D.008279D4@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Martin posted a correction:
>>>The Impeirum is TL 14 mostly, with Tl 15 just creeping in over the last
>>>few years.
>>
>> OK, this one's got me puzzled, I'll give a serious reply now.
>
>Ooops. Sorry "best tech in the Imperium is mostly TL 14, with 15
>creeping in". Average is lower..

Thank goodness! (I was sort-of worried this would mean a future major 
correction to the T20 rule-book. ;-)  ;-)

It also makes my other, later posts on the topic moot.

("Moot" as in "in complete agreement with". So now I can remain mute. ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------





tml-request@travellercentral.com
Sent by: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
07/08/2002 02:18
Please respond to tml

 
        To:     tml@travellercentral.com
        cc: 
        Subject:        TML digest, Vol 2002 #890 - 23 msgs
Is this part of a business decision process?: 


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Today's Topics:

   1. Woo Hoo Yepieee the IW are coming to town (Andrew & Dii 
Moffatt-Vallance)
   2. Silly Question (Cheng Tseng)
   3. Re: Gas Giant Mass (David Shayne)
   4. Re: Re: Mines (Timothy Little)
   5. RE: Silly Question (Mosaic Tapestry)
   6. Re: The big fleet debate (Timothy Little)
   7. GURPS MISSILE WARFARE (was The big fleet debate) (hal@buffnet.net)
   8. Re: T20 background question (MJ Dougherty)
   9. Re: Jump governor (MJ Dougherty)
  10. Re: Imperial Taxes (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
  11. Re: The big fleet debate (Timothy Little)
  12. Re: Re: Quote (correction) (Leonard Erickson)
  13. Re: mines (Timothy Little)
  14. Re: The big fleet debate (Timothy Little)
  15. Re: The big fleet debate (Timothy Little)
  16. Ad campaign...... (Michael Cessna)
  17. Re: Re: Mines (Rupert Boleyn)
  18. Re: RE: Dehumanization (John T. Kwon)
  19. GURPS Interstellar Wars (knightsky@juno.com)
  20. RE: GURPS Interstellar Wars (Mike West)
  21. Re: The cloak (Hurrel, Brian)
  22. Re: Gas Giant Mass (Anthony Jackson)
  23. Re: RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries" (Anthony Jackson)

--__--__--

Message: 1
From: "Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 18:05:31 +1200
Subject: [TML] Woo Hoo Yepieee the IW are coming to town
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Copied from JTAS

From:       Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Date:       23:01:47, Aug 05, 2002
Message-ID: 15305
Group:      General Discussion

Interstellar Wars: A New Direction For Traveller Steve Jackson Games is 
pleased to announce that its license to produce a GURPS version of the 
classic science-fiction roleplaying game Traveller has been extended for 
another three years. By agreement with Far Future Enterprises, the 
GURPS Traveller line, as well as the online Journal of the Travellers' Aid 

Society, will continue at least through the end of 2005.

The new license also gives SJ Games the right to open up a new period in 
the distant past of the classic Third Imperium setting. Long before the 
foundation of the Imperium, the Humans of Terra reached the stars for the 
first time, only to find that they were already owned by someone else. 
Centuries of conflict followed, in which the outnumbered Terrans fought 
for 
their very survival against a vast but decadent alien empire. Now GURPS 
Traveller will examine this crucial time. The first release in the new 
line, 
GURPS Traveller: The Interstellar Wars, is tentatively scheduled for a 
Summer 2003 release.

"The Interstellar Wars have always been of great interest to Traveller 
fans," 
said GURPS Traveller Line Editor Jon F. Zeigler. "It's very exciting to 
have 
the opportunity to develop this period into a setting for epic adventure." 

Marc Miller, creator of Traveller, agreed. "I'm excited about opening a 
new 
milieu. There's room for a lot of new things here." Senior Line Editor 
Loren 
Wiseman, long-time Traveller author and editor, remains at the helm of the 

GURPS Traveller product line. He is assisted by Zeigler, and by Graeme 
Davis, editor of the Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society (JTAS).


--__--__--

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 02:13:40 -0400
To: tml@travellercentral.com
From: cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng)
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Hi,

This probably displays the depths of my ignorance, but can anybody give me 
a
description of how a unit's change of command ceremony goes?  I am looking
specifically for the US Navy's protocol, but any nation or service is 
welcomed.

Thanks,

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - 
they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

 My Sale List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
 My Want List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


--__--__--

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 02:27:29 -0500
From: David Shayne <daveshayne@ameritech.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

> Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 09:42:43 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> David Shayne <daveshayne@ameritech.net> writes:
> >
> >> Any clues?
> >
> >I couldn't find that info in any TNE source. There are charts for that
> >in "World Builder's Handbook" for MT. Assuming for the moment that you
> >don't have access to that very worthwhile publication I can give you
> >some typical figures from that source.
> >
> >Smallest SGG radius = 20
> >Average SGG radius ~= 60
> >Highest SGG radius = 100
> >
> >Smallest LGG radius = 110
> >Average LGG radius ~= 175
> >Highest LGG radius = 240
> 
> Applying a realism check here, Jupiter, at size 88, is about the limit
> for any sort of gas giant (assuming TNE size is in thousands of miles,
> like CT size).

Yes it is. And yes from a perfect realism standpoint this is wrong.
However probably not hugely broken since the main thing we need to
determine here is the mass and this gives a reasonable number for mass
while still being usable with the same formula as for small rocky worlds
. (like earth) Besides I tend to the view that wherever reality and the
rules are in conflict it's almost always reality that has it wrong.
(With a special thanks to the late Doug Adams.)

> >
> >Lowest GG density = .1
> >Average GG density ~= .21
> >Highest GG density = .3
> 
> Assuming that's g/cc, that's horribly wrong. 

Standard densities. With Earth = 1. Doesn't look so horibly wrong now
does it? 

David Shayne

--__--__--

Message: 4
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 17:43:14 +1000
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Mines
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> No, I forgot to mention that this model can run the sensor and brain 
> for 7 days.

Phew, that's quite a bit better.  You're right about the huge drain
for PEMS though.  Aren't they meant to be *passive* sensors?


> Perhaps a CAPTOR style sensor platform with a number of small missiles 
> on board would be a workable comprimise, though it'd start getting 
> expensive real quick, and it wouldn't be long before most design 
> committees turned it into a small battle-station by adding point 
> defence, etc. I'm sure.

I strongly suspect so, yes.  Trouble is, they'd probably be right :(
Maybe small mines aren't viable in FF&S?


- Tim

--__--__--

Message: 5
From: "Mosaic Tapestry" <n2sami@attbi.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] Silly Question
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 01:06:56 -0700
Organization: often equals Disorgainization
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

I'm not sure which details are important to you but the essential bit of
a US Army change of command is the transfer of the colors. The outgoing
commander hands the colors to his commanding officer who immediately
hands them to the incoming commander.

A web page of events surrounding such with photo of the act:
http://www.militarymarksmanship.org/hoidahlcoc.htm

A web page of events surrounding such with parade and all:
http://www.afsouth.nato.int/images/change.htm



--__--__--

Message: 6
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 18:22:06 +1000
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] The big fleet debate
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Hal wrote:
> List all of the modifiers to gunner's skill you are using in a 
> missile/antimissile engagement.

Pretty similar to yours.  In more detail:

> Skill 12 laser gunner

A reasonable median.  I've been assuming about 9 for civilians who
have weapons but test-fire them more than they use them, up to about
15 for well-trained and experienced military personnel.

> Gunnery +6 to hit program

I generally use a Complexity 8 targeting program for +9 to hit (not
cumulative with Gunnery program).  Civilian ships will have less,
possibly +4.

> ROF bonus +10

I get only +7 RoF bonus per laser, or +8 (maybe +9) for a standard
"triple laser" turret.  Are you grouping them into larger batteries?

> Total modifiers:
> 12+ 32 + 6 + 10 + 10 + 2 - 39 = 72-39 = 32

Pretty close; I get between 24-37 depending upon circumstances; 32 is
fine.


> Rolling an average of 10 on 3d6 means that you will have succeeded by 
> 22.  Number of missiles successfully engaged in that round will be equal 
to 
> round((22-3)/2,0) or 19/2 rounded up or 10.

It's rather odd to see a turret that fires only 1 shot per 20 seconds
take out 10 missiles in the 15-30 seconds it takes the missiles to
cross the last half-hex, but them's the rules :(

Yes, that's close to the figures I get.


>  Please note that second edition rules for TRAVELLER have bumped up
> the ROF bonus from their current levels to current levels +3.

That's OK, I've got the second edition rules.  Just bought them a
couple of months ago.


> If more than 10 are inbound, he stops 10 and the rest hit.

That's the problem.  Dton-for-dton, there will always be more than 10
incoming missiles per defending turret using any sane launcher and
guidance design.  A million points of impact damage per turret
*really* hurts.


- Tim

--__--__--

Message: 7
From: hal@buffnet.net
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 04:40:04 -0400 (EDT)
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: [TML] GURPS MISSILE WARFARE (was The big fleet debate)
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

>> Gunnery +6 to hit program
>
> I generally use a Complexity 8 targeting program for +9 to hit (not
> cumulative with Gunnery program).  Civilian ships will have less,
> possibly +4.

The CDI (C Defense Industries) had a showcase of a lot of different types
of low power lasers.  The trade off was that they increased the rate of
fire to get an increase in ROF bonus.  One interesting development was to
build a specialized targeting computer.  Using GURPS rules, it was a
specilized computer getting a +1 complexity bonus for use with a targeting
computer.


>> ROF bonus +10
>
> I get only +7 RoF bonus per laser, or +8 (maybe +9) for a standard
> "triple laser" turret.  Are you grouping them into larger batteries?

The point defense lasers I built could easily attain that ROF bonus. 
Since lasers in a single turret cannot target different targets, most
Point defense scenarios I had were such that you had a triple turret
firing three lasers at its target.  I will see if I can dig up my archived
copy of the point defense lasers.  But +10 is not hard to achieve :)


>> Total modifiers:
>> 12+ 32 + 6 + 10 + 10 + 2 - 39 = 72-39 = 32
>
> Pretty close; I get between 24-37 depending upon circumstances; 32 is
> fine.
>
>
>> Rolling an average of 10 on 3d6 means that you will have succeeded by
>> 22.  Number of missiles successfully engaged in that round will be
>> equal to  round((22-3)/2,0) or 19/2 rounded up or 10.
>
> It's rather odd to see a turret that fires only 1 shot per 20 seconds
> take out 10 missiles in the 15-30 seconds it takes the missiles to
> cross the last half-hex, but them's the rules :(

Minor thoughts: part of that +10 bonus for Point defense comes of the fact
that the missiles attempting to hit you have to come in from a specific
"region".  This region is a relatively small cone that gets smaller the
closer those missiles come to you.  But you are correct.  There should be
a MAX number of targets that can be engaged by a single laser group per
turn equal to the max number of shots a single laser in the grouping and
put out in a turn.


>> If more than 10 are inbound, he stops 10 and the rest hit.
>
> That's the problem.  Dton-for-dton, there will always be more than 10
> incoming missiles per defending turret using any sane launcher and
> guidance design.  A million points of impact damage per turret
> *really* hurts.

Using the concept that the current weapon systems are designed to operate
against the current enemy weapon technology - try using the GURPS
TRAVELLER missile designs first.  Then do an analysis of weapons in the
TRAVELLER universe.  If you can see where there is an improved methodology
for weapons, post it and we can argue the merits and/or improve any
oversights.  I am still flabberghasted that no one ever noticed that the
FAST drug makes a FAR better alternative for cheap travel than does a
freeze tube!

  But that is another story ;)



--__--__--

Message: 8
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] T20 background question
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 10:29:39 +0100
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

>
> Martin replied:
> >>What is the TL of  the Imperium & the Terran Confederation in the
> >>Year 1000 setting of T20?
> >
> >The Impeirum is TL 14 mostly, with Tl 15 just creeping in over the last
> few
> >years.
>
> OK, this one's got me puzzled, I'll give a serious reply now.


Ooops. Sorry "best tech in the Imperium is mostly TL 14, with 15 creeping
in". Average is lower..


--__--__--

Message: 9
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Jump governor
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 10:30:44 +0100
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com


> I don't see these in High Guard - IMTU, they don't exist.  If
> a Jump-4 ship jumps 2 parsecs, they only use 2 parsecs worth
> of fuel.
>
> What was the last canon word on this subject, if any?

Marc's last statement (and confirmed to me in a question I asked a while
ago) was that if you have J-3 fuel and you J-1, you only use J1 of fuel 
up.


--__--__--

Message: 10
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 12:06:33 +0200 (MEST)
From: Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Taxes
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Anthony Jackson writes:
>In Striker, the implication is that the imperial military tax is simply 
1/3
>of the planet's total military expenditure (with another 1/3 going to the
>subsector fleet, so the world only keeps 1/3 for personal forces).

Incorrect. It's 30% of total military expenditure that goes to the
Imperium with 70% retained for local use. The 30% is divided between
regular and subsector forces. I used to be convinced that somewhere I had
seen a canonical statement to the effect that these Imperial military
taxes were split 50/50 between regular and subsector forces (so 15% to
each), but I've been trying to track down the reference for a while with
no luck, so I'm beginning to doubt. Maybe I made it up myself (anyone who
can come up with the reference will earn my undying gratitude ;-).



Hans


--__--__--

Message: 11
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 20:19:01 +1000
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] The big fleet debate
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Ok, that's reasonable.  Now, let's look at a point defense system:

> 9 x rE cell, good for 50 shots: 0.09T, $90k

I get $180k, but that doesn't matter much.

> Dedicated Macroframe: 0.25T, $50k, complexity 11

I get $100k and Complexity 10 at TL12.  It's not hardened, but that's
not likely to be a problem except in really unusual situations.


> Targeting +12: $512k (but probably gets a bulk discoute)

I get $256k, and I agree about the bulk discount ;) However, I can
only seem to fit a $128k +11 program in the macroframe.


> with the Vehicles system beam weapons in space have no Acc cap,

However, in the Vehicles rules maximum accuracy bonus is limited to
Gunnery skill, in this case 25.  There's no point in aiming more than
one second.  That gives you a base of 50 (51 since you can miss by one
and still hit).


> The missile is being fired at one second before impact

You'd better make that at least two seconds else the now unguided
missile will still hit your ship.  You need to do a *lot* more damage
to annihilate it.  (In fact, if there are a lot of missiles, you might
find it very hard to dodge all the "dead" ones...)

That doesn't change the basic to-hit number by much, it's 15- instead
of 16-.  Continuing the progression out to the 1/2D limit, I also get
an average of about 8 missiles killed.

It's a good thing I didn't put thermal superconductors in their
armour ;)


> Hm...that's actually worse than I realized.  Oh well, if they send a
> really big swarm of missiles at you simply dump a canister round in
> front of them.

How *big* a canister round?

You need to disable the missiles about 600 miles out, and they will
probably be approaching from a region 200 miles across at that
distance.  Your canister must disperse about ten trillion objects of
sufficient size to reliably disable a missile, just to cut the numbers
in half.

A 20 MJ x-ray pulse is barely enough to penetrate the DR, so I'll use
that to derive an estimate of particle size required.  At 500 km/s,
that works out to a mass of about 0.16 grams, which I will round down
to 0.1 grams to give some benefit of the doubt to the defending side.

Each canister must thus have a mass of about a million tonnes.  You
would actually need a few times that to account for dispersion.


Your countermissile idea was better.  I've designed and played it
using Vehicles rules, and it is a highly reliable system for
intercepting missiles.

It would probably fail horribly when faced with a "silent launch" from
an untracked ship though.  In my Vehicles test of this scenario, most
of the missiles weren't detected until about 10 seconds before impact.
Even with an immediate launch at 30 gees, they couldn't intercept the
missiles at a safe distance.  In such a case, lasers are about the
only option -- and even then, not a good one.


- Tim

--__--__--

Message: 12
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 01:45:33 PST
Organization: Shadownet
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

In mail you write:

>> >That's John Milius.
>> 
>> So it is . . . he still should have directed Starship Troopers.
>> 
>> LKW
>
> Anyone _OTHER_ than Verhoeven should have directed Starship Troopers.

Yeah, but if he directed Red Dawn, he *definitely* makes the short list.


-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


--__--__--

Message: 13
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 20:37:58 +1000
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] mines
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Terry Carlino wrote:
[2D maps vs 3D maps]
> What has that to do with anything. A det-laser mine that can fire
> across a 10,000 mile hex, can fire across a 10,000 sphere.

The difference is in how many you need.  A typical interplanetary
"traffic lane" would be a few million miles wide (say 5 million).  On
a 2-D map, you only need 500 mines which is expensive but probably
doable.  On a 3D map you need 250,000 -- that's almost certain to
break your budget given how much they cost each.

Note that I'm not saying mines are ineffective in general, I was
commenting in the thread that started with an attacker trying to use
them to destroy interplanetary commerce.  I don't think that will work
well enough to be worthwhile.


> After doing some searching on my hard drive I find that actual range
> is more like 9 hexes, so in a three dimensional game that would be a
> sphere 180,000 miles across.

9 hexes range is a lot better.  You only need about 800 to cover that
traffic lane. 


> I think the best system we came up with was one where the mines were
> controlled by either a controlling sensor platform or a ship. This
> makes the mines smaller and cheaper. The sensors "paint" the target
> for the passive sensors on the mines to pick up.

Yes, that rings a bell.  Again, more effective in 2D than 3D, but
useful for covering the space near a planet or other "small" area.


> Part of the point would be to force ships attempting to traverse the
> area to slow down, use sensors and weapons to clear the mine
> field. This alone would make them detectable to opposing craft.

I've not found detection of enemy craft to be much of a problem in my
test-bed runs.  Usually the side with mines controls the system, sees
the jump flash of any intruder, and can track everything they
subsequently do.

Maybe I'm just lacking battle experience against other people.  Is
avoiding detection by the defender a possibility in most people's
scenarios?


- Tim

--__--__--

Message: 14
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 20:42:57 +1000
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] The big fleet debate
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

David P. Summers wrote:
> What is the view toward using nukes for point defense?

My first thought would be "Is it worthwhile?"

Politically, I suspect it lies in a murky area.  In practice, I
suspect that the advantages of using nuclear weapons for defense
aren't sufficient to be worth the chance that the other side might
take it as a sign that it's OK for them to use nukes in offense.

I can see very clear advantages to using nukes offensively...


- Tim

--__--__--

Message: 15
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 20:44:12 +1000
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] The big fleet debate
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Terry Carlino wrote:
> The only reason I can think of is to allow you to self destruct the
> missile if necessary.

Yes, I guess that makes sense.  Thanks :)


- Tim

--__--__--

Message: 16
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 04:14:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Cessna <graymask1120@yahoo.com>
To: TML <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: [TML] Ad campaign......
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Just a thought for an InstellArms catalog:

http://www.missilesandfirecontrol.com/our_products/antiarmor.html

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

--__--__--

Message: 17
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Organization: Babel and Chaos
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 00:03:47 +1200
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Mines
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

On 6 Aug 2002 at 17:43, Timothy Little wrote:

> Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > No, I forgot to mention that this model can run the sensor and brain 
> > for 7 days.
> 
> Phew, that's quite a bit better.  You're right about the huge drain
> for PEMS though.  Aren't they meant to be *passive* sensors?

Yeah. I think they must use valves in their signal processor, or 
something. :)

> > Perhaps a CAPTOR style sensor platform with a number of small missiles 

> > on board would be a workable comprimise, though it'd start getting 
> > expensive real quick, and it wouldn't be long before most design 
> > committees turned it into a small battle-station by adding point 
> > defence, etc. I'm sure.
> 
> I strongly suspect so, yes.  Trouble is, they'd probably be right :(
> Maybe small mines aren't viable in FF&S?

It depends what for. That first design I posted was only 1 m^3 in 
volume, and would be quite hard to avoid, I think. the 3 G-turns of 
fuel it had is enough to guarantee that it can get into firing position 
of anything that comes within 60,000km or so (a turn in TNE is 30 
minutes, and a hex 30,000km).

By ditching the rocket the volume can be brought down to 0.6 m^3 and 
the cost to MCr1.423 at TL15, but then the mine can only attack craft 
that come into its hex - within 10-15,000km or so. I tried taking off 
the Electromagnetic Masking (EMM), but that didn't save any significant 
space, money or power.

Actually playing around I see that if a fusion reactor of minimum size 
is put in (assuming TL15 that's 0.1 m^3 and 0.6MW) you can still have 
the basic 1 m^3 mine, and about 4 months fuel, with no noticeable 
increase in cost. In fact the limit to performance suddenly bocomes 
surface area on which to mount the PEMS.

Thus:

TL Guidance Vol Mass AV MCr   G-Turns Warhead Hits Damage  Range
15 Full-Ind 1   1.26 3  1.547 3/3     50kt    1D6  1/14-43 0

Comm Sensor Signatures     Asset
10L  1P     +4/+3/+4/+3/+1 4/8

with a duration for the sensor and brain of 4 months.

Or, for a bigger job:

TL Guidance Vol Mass AV MCr   G-Turns Warhead Hits Damage  Range
15 Full-Ind 7   8.48 3  7.434 3/3     500kt   1D6  1/25-79 0

Comm Sensor Signatures     Asset
10L  5P     +4/+3/+4/+3/+1 6/16

This thing has a short range of 150,000km for its PEMS and a maximum of 
1,200,000km and a year's fuel for the fusion plant that powers its 
sensor and brain (the same plant as the little 'um uses, BTW). It has a 
fairly weak motor because it's still got a crappy little EAPlaC solid 
fuel rocket instead of a nice HEPlaR or thruster system. This way it's 
not sensitive to issues version or canon the same way (FWIW).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


--__--__--

Message: 18
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 08:08:27 -0400
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

>I am of the view that we are not going very far as a species 
>until we manage to get our act together on Earth and solve 
>the seemingly insurmountable problems - of our own doing - 
>facing us. Even interplanetary travel on any significant 
>scale is just not going to happen unless we instigate a 
>paradigm shift in the way we behave towards each other and
>towards life in general. Is it unreasonable to assume that 
>any sentient species that gains control of its environment 
>has to learn to curb exponential growth and a corresponding 
>exponential increase in the demand for resources? Only once 
>this hurdle is overcome will the ability to harness the 
>resources of a single solar system and the ability to travel 
>to other solar systems be developed.

This is the Sagan hypothesis - that sufficiently advanced 
alien life forms will have learned to be "peaceful".  There 
is no reason that this has to be so.  If a warlike species 
came to be dominated by a single high tech faction, through 
limited nuclear war and genocidal action, and used this high 
technology to permanently dominate and subjugate its 
population, it would survive its birth into a nuclear age and 
birth into a starfaring age.

Sufficiently advanced technology makes life on an airless 
rockball possible - why would such a species need to preserve 
its wildlife? 

It is simply not logical to conclude that we must get our act 
together in some peaceful manner.  All that is required is 
that we get our act together - and this could be done today 
by the United States, largely through the use of force.  We 
could solve many problems at once - the population problem, 
the poverty of the third world, the source of most terrorists 
around the world, religions that are inimical to US goals, up 
and coming governments that will consume resources to no good 
end - imagine the tyranny of technological might that could 
annihilate several billion people in a few weeks, and spend 
the world's resources on going to the stars.

A peaceful Sagan-like world that ran across a violent world 
where both were capable of building antimatter rockets would 
be annihilated by the violent world in the time it took for 
the rockets to cross the distance.  The peaceful would die 
with startled looks on their faces as the radars showed the 
near-C projectiles coming in.

Scary, isn't it?  But I think that across the stars, this is 
the far more likely scenario.  Sagan was a dreamer, a wishful 
thinker whose idea of transgression was cheating on his wife.

When I see pictures of children overseas holding AK-47s, I 
see a future where alien races are holding antimatter rockets 
and near-C rocks.  Same picture.  It's not a good idea to 
shout, "Here I am!" in a jungle like that.
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

--__--__--

Message: 19
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 08:19:15 -0400
From: knightsky@juno.com
Subject: [TML] GURPS Interstellar Wars
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Many of you have probably already run across this, but for those who
haven't, check out Evil Stevie's Daily Illuminator
(http://www.sjgames.com/ill/) for the 8/6/02 entry.


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"




________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

--__--__--

Message: 20
From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] GURPS Interstellar Wars
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 08:43:47 -0500
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

> Many of you have probably already run across this, but for those who
> haven't, check out Evil Stevie's Daily Illuminator
> (http://www.sjgames.com/ill/) for the 8/6/02 entry.

I hadn't see it yet, but it does sound interesting.  The only thing
I hope is that this doesn't mean they are abandoning their alternate
history.

They have just gotten to the cusp of 1120 and actually having history
move forward.  It will be quite disappointing if instead history just
stops at 1120 as they abandon it for the Interstellar Wars.

Mike West

--__--__--

Message: 21
From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>
To: "'tml@travellercentral.com'" <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] The cloak
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 10:40:25 -0400 
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

I once ran through the Maxcy dorm parking lot at USC wearing only sneakers
and a Spuds McKenzie beach towel around my neck (yelling "SCIENCE!" at the
top of my lungs for reasons that now escape me)...does that count as 
wearing
a cloak? 

--__--__--

Message: 22
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 09:10:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

David Shayne writes:

> Standard densities. With Earth = 1. Doesn't look so horibly wrong now
> does it? 

Ok, that's not as bad. 

--__--__--

Message: 23
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 09:17:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

David P. Summers writes:

> You are assuming close packed spheres.

Actually, I'm assuming a flat 'shell' of fighters.  Volume covered is 
actually
third order in range.
> ground per sensor by moveing around).  Also, If you take sensor input 
> from multiple sensors and combine them, it is possible to generate 
> detection of things that couldn't be detected within the range of 
> anyone sensor.

GURPS doesn't really cover array sensors (if you're going to apply that 
bit of
realism, there's a lot of other realism tweaks you can make as well), but
interferometry really isn't going to help much with deep space detection, 
as
(a) it mostly improves resolution, not sensitivity, and (b) it massively
reduces coverage, meaning you're likely to miss objects entirely due to 
looking
in the wrong direction.
 
>  Lastly, the advantage that a fighter gives only its 
> own position, and not that of the capital ship, if it is caught first 
> is non-trivial

If stealth were particularly meaningful or interesting in space, sure.  In
practice, having multiple small ships just guarantees you'll be spotted, 
due to
other quirks in the sensor rules.


--__--__--

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


End of TML Digest





Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 18:46:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Tue Aug  6 17:46:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
References: <200208070000.MFJ02183@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D506907.B582A8E7@mindspring.com>

"John T. Kwon" wrote:
> 
> alan spik says
> <snip the enlisted view of the change of command>
> 
> the sergeant major kept me and a couple of other guys in the
> rear of the formation.  we were supposed to watch out for
> people about to fall out, and as discreetly as possible, move
> forward and get them out of formation.
> 
> hot sun, standing in one place for a long time, etc...
> ________________
> FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

I don't think the Navy was that organized. Read with amusement Doug's
post about marching. At every CoC I attended, we were given a time to be
there. We were expected to, and did meander our way over and meet the
Chief who would tell us where to stand. Usually a big gaggle(Pod?), then
the Master Chief would come out and make everyone straiten up in ranks,
and the show would get started about thirty minutes later. I remember
several people falling out.

-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
If you can't convince them, confuse them.
                -Harry S. Truman

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 19:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 18:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
Message-ID: <OFEF204F0E.98F09E48-ONCA256C0E.00054E5A@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Steven wrote:
>(Incidentally, I remember there being a single 1-point TL 16 unit in
>=46FW, which I always assumed to be the player characters!)

ROFL! Better chalk up a keyboard kill for that one!

I can just picture the group in my mind - a bunch of unruly, slavering 
warmongers, weighed down with all those nasty weapons and ammo that they 
couldn't possibly carry in Real Life, propbably tooling down the street in 
a Lancer, and who are they?

PCs!!

"Fear Them!!"

(...and players reckon they can't change the course of major events! ;-))
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 19:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 18:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <6c.205466db.2a81ce42@aol.com>

>Keeping in mind that it's been a while...
>
>A Naval change of command reflects the fact that the Captain of the
>vessel/unit/whatever IS the vessel/unit/whatever. 

A Hollywood version of the change of command (and a damned good performance 
by Humphrey Bogart) can be seen in THE CAINE MUTINY. A great movie, and an 
interesting approach to the US Navy in WWII, albeit not as historically 
accurate as it could be.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 19:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 18:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
Message-ID: <cb.263b55e1.2a81d002@aol.com>

>Jeff D. Greenly" says
><snip naval change of command>
>
>Don't forget - the outgoing commander has to do an inventory 
>with the new commander, and the new commander gets to sign 
>for the ship and all of the equipment in it.

Naval JAG: So what happened to the three 15" guns that used to in the aft 
turret?
Captain: What 15" guns? This is a destroyer!
Naval JAG: The ones in the property book you signed for when you took 
command. I'm afraid we can't allow you to retire until those are paid for . . 
. 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 19:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 18:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
Message-ID: <40.21dfb589.2a81d093@aol.com>

--part1_40.21dfb589.2a81d093_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

>Naval JAG: So what happened to the three 15" guns that used to in the aft 
>turret?
>Captain: What 15" guns? This is a destroyer!
>Naval JAG: The ones in the property book you signed for when you took 
>command. I'm afraid we can't allow you to retire until those are paid for . 
. 

Heh. Anyone remember the classic SF story "Allamagoosa?"

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

--part1_40.21dfb589.2a81d093_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt;Naval JAG: So what happened to the three 15" guns that used to in the aft 
<BR>&gt;turret?
<BR>&gt;Captain: What 15" guns? This is a destroyer!
<BR>&gt;Naval JAG: The ones in the property book you signed for when you took 
<BR>&gt;command. I'm afraid we can't allow you to retire until those are paid for . . 
<BR>
<BR>Heh. Anyone remember the classic SF story "Allamagoosa?"
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_40.21dfb589.2a81d093_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 19:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 18:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <OFD36DEE2F.D870CE31-ONCA256C0E.00093695@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

From Jesse & Doug:
>>>What about artists?  ;)
>>
>>Back in your hole, polygon boy!  When we want something from you, we'll 
do
>>the usual thing.  Toss a contract and art specs in your cage and pray 
you
>>don't ruin our finely crafted prose with your "art."
>
>No more grav tanks you Penguin Boy ;)
>
>And that should read:
>"When we want something from you, we'll do the usual thing.  *At the last 
minute,* toss >a contract and, *if you're lucky*, art specs in your cage 
and pray you don't ruin our >finely crafted prose with your "art."

Love it! Some friendly banter between Penguin Boy and The Polygon Kid.

I'm settling down with some popcorn.

;-)  ;-)

(BTW Jesse, when your next page update going to happen? %^)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 19:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 18:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <OFBDFF848E.6EC3E744-ONCA256C0E.0009E3EB@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Leonard wrote:
>If we can't follow our own laws except when it is convenient, we are
>all at the mercy of anybody in a position of authorty.

Welcome to the "rule of men, not laws".

BTW, did you receive the Straker Theme I sent over?

BTW #2, the mailer seems to be adding multiple copies of selected mail 
items to the digest. Is anyone in non-digest mode experiencing the same 
thing?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 20:19:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Tue Aug  6 19:19:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <40.21dfb589.2a81d093@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020806211959.00a6ea80@minn.net>

At 09:23 PM 8/6/2002 EDT, Jon F. Zeigler wrote:
>>Naval JAG: So what happened to the three 15" guns that used to in the aft  
>>turret? 
>>Captain: What 15" guns? This is a destroyer! 
>>Naval JAG: The ones in the property book you signed for when you took  
>>command. I'm afraid we can't allow you to retire until those are paid for
>. .  
> 
>Heh. Anyone remember the classic SF story "Allamagoosa?" 

Has anyone seen the offog?


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 20:25:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Aug  6 19:25:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <m3sn1yqp9b.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20806.173519.2Q3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
>>
>> Perhaps captured officers (or at least gentlebeings) are even given
>> their parole.
>
> How exactly does this work?  Does one promise not to fight against
> one's captor ever again, or simply for a time period, or until the end
> of the current engagement, or until one has journeyed back home,
> or...?  I've considered it pretty rotten that US soldiers are not
> allowed to give their parole and get back home, but perhaps that's
> just me.

Actually, in the Napoleonic era, "giving your parole" could be far more
limited. For example, it would let you wander about the base you were
being kept at without an escort. You'd have agreed to not try to escape
or to damage anything.

The sort that would get you released would likely involve not fighting
against them again during that war. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 20:34:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 19:34:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <OFBA2D763C.F2E139E2-ONCA256C0E.000A4049@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

David Smart wrote:
>Do you know how difficult it is for me to NOT
>print T-shirts of his stuff for personal use?

I'd been thinking about this for a while, too. A copyright question that I 
don't know the answer to is, "Is it 'fair use' if I put a Jesse picture on 
ONE T-Shirt for my own use?"

The alternative I thought of was asking Jesse for permission to make _two_ 
shirts, and sending him the second one as "payment". ;-)

Jesse, your thoughts?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 20:35:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dave Strebe)
Date: Tue Aug  6 19:35:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
References: <40.21dfb589.2a81d093@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002901c23db6$2a3bcea0$6401a8c0@vs.shawcable.net>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--Boundary_(ID_pKnSt/fCjzOf2fxs/cwTgA)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

That the one with the 'disappearing ships dog'.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JFZeigler@aol.com 
  To: tml@travellercentral.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 6:23 PM
  Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Silly Question


  >Naval JAG: So what happened to the three 15" guns that used to in the aft 
  >turret? 
  >Captain: What 15" guns? This is a destroyer! 
  >Naval JAG: The ones in the property book you signed for when you took 
  >command. I'm afraid we can't allow you to retire until those are paid for . . 

  Heh. Anyone remember the classic SF story "Allamagoosa?" 

  ---------- 
  Jon F. Zeigler 
  Line Editor, GURPS Traveller 
  jon@sjgames.com 
  "The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events." 

--Boundary_(ID_pKnSt/fCjzOf2fxs/cwTgA)
Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2716.2200" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>That the one with the 'disappearing ships 
dog'.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV 
  style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> 
  <A title=JFZeigler@aol.com 
  href="mailto:JFZeigler@aol.com">JFZeigler@aol.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=tml@travellercentral.com 
  href="mailto:tml@travellercentral.com">tml@travellercentral.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 06, 2002 6:23 
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [TML] Re: Silly 
  Question</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=2>&gt;Naval JAG: So what 
  happened to the three 15" guns that used to in the aft <BR>&gt;turret? 
  <BR>&gt;Captain: What 15" guns? This is a destroyer! <BR>&gt;Naval JAG: The 
  ones in the property book you signed for when you took <BR>&gt;command. I'm 
  afraid we can't allow you to retire until those are paid for . . <BR><BR>Heh. 
  Anyone remember the classic SF story "Allamagoosa?" <BR><BR>---------- <BR>Jon 
  F. Zeigler <BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller <BR>jon@sjgames.com <BR>"The 
  referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT> 
</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

--Boundary_(ID_pKnSt/fCjzOf2fxs/cwTgA)--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 20:41:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 19:41:11 2002
Subject: [TML] I reposted an entire Digest - Sorry!
Message-ID: <OF01BB50EA.68DB5AEA-ONCA256C0E.000E29B4@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

*Profound Apology*

I managed to forget to wipe out the rest of the message (ie. the entire 
contents of the digest) when I sent one of my "T20 background question" responses.

Sorry sorry sorry! (especially to those with bandwidth issues)

<shuffles off, embarrassed... mutter mutter, "swore I'd never do that!" 
mutter...>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 20:46:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Aug  6 19:46:13 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
In-Reply-To: <3d50427f.7657767@post.demon.co.uk>
References: <006301c23ce3$2bcea180$eeb18b90@computer>
 <006301c23ce3$2bcea180$eeb18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020806223905.027bbeb8@192.168.0.1>

At 10:48 PM 8/6/2002 +0000, Stephen Tempest wrote:
>"Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com> writes:
> >The counter mix from Invasion Earth might be worth studying.
>There aren't any TL15 units on either side.
>The Imperial Marines are 78% TL14 (1 division, 3 regiments) plus 2 IM
>regiments at TL12 and TL13.
>The Imperial regular army is 70% TL14, 20% TL13, 10% TL12.
>Imperial colonial forces (which account for about 30% of the total
>Imperial strength) are TL11 - TL14, with TL12 being the norm.
>Solomani regular troops are 43% TL14, 42% TL 13, 11% TL12 and 4% TL11.
>The local Terran guerrillas are all TL 13.

Ah...perfect, thanks

I wanted to come up with some light Solomani ship that would be active in 
the Rim War.
400 ton commerce raiders, transports for Commando units, that sort of thing.
Perhaps a light carrier at TL 12 carrying TL 13/14 fighters.
Just the sort of thing you want mucking around behind enemy lines....



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Firm footwork is the fount from which springs all
offense and defense." -- Giacomo diGrasse, 1570
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 21:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mosaic Tapestry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 20:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <40.21dfb589.2a81d093@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003c01c23dc2$11fe1850$2f7de40c@loki>

Allamagoosa

Eric Frank Russell (1905-1976) Born Sandhurst, Surrey. His father was in
the military and his family moved a number of times. He spent part of
his youth in Egypt and Sudan. At college, he studied a variety of
subjects including chemistry, physics and metallurgy. During WWII, he
took radio courses in London and at the Marconi College in Chelmsford,
eventually leading a small RAF mobile radio unit attached to General
Patton's army. He worked for a time in an engineering firm, published
his first novel in 1939, and later became a full-time writer. In his
later years, he gave up writing. 

Allamagoosa is, well, clever. It's fun to read, and amusing, and it's
one of those short stories with a punch line. The crew of a ship,
knowing that they're about to be audited, want to be sure there are no
discrepancies between the actual contents of their ship and the
inventory thereof. Except there *is* a discrepancy, and...I won't spoil
it for you. The Hugo winners are anthologized and pretty widely
available, and it's only a few pages long. Go ahead and read it, it'll
give you a chuckle.

Eric Frank Russell never became as famous as many of the other Hugo
Winners, but some of his novels have recently been re-issued and are
available at Amazon(1). Shadow Man: The life and works of Eric Frank
Russell(2) is a good fan site. For some reviews of some of Russell's
other works, visit this site(3).


(1)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/103-2568973-2316640
This link credits Loren with the assist at Amazon.
(2) http://www.stageleft.com.au/efr/
(3) http://ftp.logica.com/~stepneys/sf/books/r/russell.htm



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 21:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 20:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] GURPS Interstellar Wars
Message-ID: <157.120f94ca.2a81edae@aol.com>

> Many of you have probably already run across this, but for those who
> haven't, check out Evil Stevie's Daily Illuminator
> (http://www.sjgames.com/ill/) for the 8/6/02 entry.

I hadn't see it yet, but it does sound interesting.  The only thing
I hope is that this doesn't mean they are abandoning their alternate
history.

They have just gotten to the cusp of 1120 and actually having history
move forward.  It will be quite disappointing if instead history just
stops at 1120 as they abandon it for the Interstellar Wars.

The license is for BOTH the alternate universe and the Interstellar Wars 
period, and we are not going to abandon the alternate timeline. There is too 
much cool stuff that needs to see print.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 21:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 20:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: army usage
Message-ID: <159.121cd731.2a81f025@aol.com>

 >>I really think you should do some research on the situation in 
 >>Afganisthan and how everything went down before blurting things out.
 >>The main population of Afganisthan was opposed to the Taliban, which
 >>is mainly from a tribe to the south west (I think). 
 >
 >Tommy, you should do some research, too.  The Taliban was composed
 >primarily of Pakistani and Saudi volunteers who called themselves
 >"students" (of Islam).

No.  To my knowledge, on that particular point he's right.  The Taliban 
stronghold is in the large and populous tribes of southern Afghanistan.  As I 
understand it they are the largest single group of tribes and are in fact 
extensions of the tribes in Pakistan, which would be why Pakistan supported 
them.  It was Al Qaida that were "the Arabs", the foreigners.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 21:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Hamill)
Date: Tue Aug  6 20:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
In-Reply-To: <20020806190006.21475.58141.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020807034518.1959.qmail@web21510.mail.yahoo.com>

Excuse me, but does anyone happen to know the URL of
the GTS program by Thomas Bont? All the addresses I
have for it are broken, and I really need that program
yesterday. I have a chance to get a two-part GURPS:
Traveller game together, during a weekend mini-con at
the local game store, and I really need a couple of
ships fast. Well, faster than I can do them by hand,
anyway. Thanks for your help (in advance).

John
jwdh71@yahoo.com 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 21:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Aug  6 20:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <003c01c23dc2$11fe1850$2f7de40c@loki>
References: <003c01c23dc2$11fe1850$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <1028692602.3d509a7a7909e@www.paradise.net.nz>

Quoting Mosaic Tapestry <n2sami@attbi.com>:

> Eric Frank Russell never became as famous as many of the other Hugo
> Winners, but some of his novels have recently been re-issued and are
> available at Amazon(1). Shadow Man: The life and works of Eric Frank
> Russell(2) is a good fan site. For some reviews of some of Russell's
> other works, visit this site(3).

Eric Frank Russel is one of my favourite old-time SF writers. _Men, Martians 
and Machines_ and _The Great Explosion_ probably being my two favourites.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 22:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Tue Aug  6 21:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
In-Reply-To: <20020807034518.1959.qmail@web21510.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001501c23dc7$ff408580$0b01a8c0@duck>

http://webpages.charter.net/tombont/

I *love* this program.  He does take some minor liberties,
but it is more than close enough and it does the ugly stuff
for you to make your life easier.

Mike West
mjwest@caddocourt.com 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John Hamill
> Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 10:45 PM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
> 
> 
> Excuse me, but does anyone happen to know the URL of
> the GTS program by Thomas Bont? All the addresses I
> have for it are broken, and I really need that program
> yesterday. I have a chance to get a two-part GURPS:
> Traveller game together, during a weekend mini-con at
> the local game store, and I really need a couple of
> ships fast. Well, faster than I can do them by hand,
> anyway. Thanks for your help (in advance).
> 
> John
> jwdh71@yahoo.com 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
> http://health.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 22:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mosaic Tapestry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 21:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
In-Reply-To: <20020807034518.1959.qmail@web21510.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <004501c23dc8$887ca9a0$2f7de40c@loki>

You can find it midway down this page:

http://www.sjgames.com/general/gm-aids.html



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 22:14:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mosaic Tapestry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 21:14:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <1028692602.3d509a7a7909e@www.paradise.net.nz>
Message-ID: <004601c23dc8$c24f36c0$2f7de40c@loki>

Quoting Mosaic Tapestry <n2sami@attbi.com>:

> Eric Frank Russell never became as famous as many of the other Hugo

BTW, these words are not my own but were pinched from I can't remember
where on the web.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 22:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 21:26:03 2002
Subject: MT Vehicles (was: Re: [TML] Landgrab )
Message-ID: <OF72559D70.D8259EC8-ONCA256C0E.0010593F@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Peter asked:
>Does anyone have (or know of) some software  or  spreadsheet  for
>creating ground vehicles using MT rules?  I need to create  about
>a dozen different military vehicles for my Efate landgrab.

I created one, but it is a little basic and assumes you have the rules to 
plug the numbers in. (I did it years ago when I was worried about 
copyright and didn't know how to write a database spreadsheet. I still 
don't... ;-)

I downloaded one from the 'net... Ships III from Ace and The Dog's 
website. However, I can't remember if it covers vehicles. It's a bit flaky 
and can crash unexpectedly, so save often!
        http://www.ace-dog.com/downloads/downloads.htm

Would pulling a couple of designs from 101 Vehicles help? What are you 
after, specifically?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 22:50:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Hamill)
Date: Tue Aug  6 21:50:04 2002
Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
In-Reply-To: <001501c23dc7$ff408580$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <20020807044905.11399.qmail@web21510.mail.yahoo.com>

Thank you VERY much, this is a life saver. Now all I
have to do is build a couple of ships, half a dozen
PC's and about 10 NPC's by Friday. Peice of cake. :-)

--- Mike West <mjwest@caddocourt.com> wrote:
> http://webpages.charter.net/tombont/
> 
> I *love* this program.  He does take some minor
> liberties,
> but it is more than close enough and it does the
> ugly stuff
> for you to make your life easier.
> 
> Mike West
> mjwest@caddocourt.com 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> > [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf
> Of John Hamill
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 10:45 PM
> > To: tml@travellercentral.com
> > Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
> > 
> > 
> > Excuse me, but does anyone happen to know the URL
> of
> > the GTS program by Thomas Bont? All the addresses
> I
> > have for it are broken, and I really need that
> program
> > yesterday. I have a chance to get a two-part
> GURPS:
> > Traveller game together, during a weekend mini-con
> at
> > the local game store, and I really need a couple
> of
> > ships fast. Well, faster than I can do them by
> hand,
> > anyway. Thanks for your help (in advance).
> > 
> > John
> > jwdh71@yahoo.com 
> > 
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
> > http://health.yahoo.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > TML mailing list
> > TML@travellercentral.com
> >
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> > 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 22:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Tue Aug  6 21:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
In-Reply-To: <20020807044905.11399.qmail@web21510.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001601c23dce$de6fa050$0b01a8c0@duck>

When you click down, please also take note of the GURPS Character Maker.
That should help with the second part.  :-)

Oh, and I forgot to mention in the first message that it seems he
renamed the program to GURPS Modular Vehicles (GMV).  The link on the 
SJG site references a slightly older version that is still called GTS.

Mike West
mjwest@caddocourt.com 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John Hamill
> Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 11:49 PM
> To: Mike West
> Cc: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: RE: [TML] GTS-the program
> 
> 
> Thank you VERY much, this is a life saver. Now all I
> have to do is build a couple of ships, half a dozen
> PC's and about 10 NPC's by Friday. Peice of cake. :-)
> 
> --- Mike West <mjwest@caddocourt.com> wrote:
> > http://webpages.charter.net/tombont/
> > 
> > I *love* this program.  He does take some minor
> > liberties,
> > but it is more than close enough and it does the
> > ugly stuff
> > for you to make your life easier.
> > 
> > Mike West
> > mjwest@caddocourt.com 
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> > > [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf
> > Of John Hamill
> > > Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 10:45 PM
> > > To: tml@travellercentral.com
> > > Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Excuse me, but does anyone happen to know the URL
> > of
> > > the GTS program by Thomas Bont? All the addresses
> > I
> > > have for it are broken, and I really need that
> > program
> > > yesterday. I have a chance to get a two-part
> > GURPS:
> > > Traveller game together, during a weekend mini-con
> > at
> > > the local game store, and I really need a couple
> > of
> > > ships fast. Well, faster than I can do them by
> > hand,
> > > anyway. Thanks for your help (in advance).
> > > 
> > > John
> > > jwdh71@yahoo.com 
> > > 
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
> > > http://health.yahoo.com
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > TML mailing list
> > > TML@travellercentral.com
> > >
> >
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> > > 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
> http://health.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 23:00:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Tue Aug  6 22:00:05 2002
Subject: [TML] GURPS Interstellar Wars
In-Reply-To: <157.120f94ca.2a81edae@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001701c23dcf$39dd3c40$0b01a8c0@duck>

> > Many of you have probably already run across this, but for those who
> > haven't, check out Evil Stevie's Daily Illuminator
> > (http://www.sjgames.com/ill/) for the 8/6/02 entry.
>
> I hadn't see it yet, but it does sound interesting.  The only thing
> I hope is that this doesn't mean they are abandoning their alternate
> history.
> ----------------
>
> The license is for BOTH the alternate universe and the Interstellar Wars
> period, and we are not going to abandon the alternate timeline. There is
too
> much cool stuff that needs to see print.
>
> LKW

I figured this was the case, but just wanted to make sure.  Thank you
for the quick response.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 23:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Hamill)
Date: Tue Aug  6 22:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
In-Reply-To: <001601c23dce$de6fa050$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <20020807053026.71876.qmail@web21501.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Mike West <mjwest@caddocourt.com> wrote:
> When you click down, please also take note of the
> GURPS Character Maker.
> That should help with the second part.  :-)

Thanks, already seen and acquired, er, liberated, er
downloaded, yeah, that's it. :-)

> Oh, and I forgot to mention in the first message
> that it seems he
> renamed the program to GURPS Modular Vehicles (GMV).
>  The link on the 
> SJG site references a slightly older version that is
> still called GTS.
> 
> Mike West
> mjwest@caddocourt.com 

Thanks, I saw that too, I think he had done that after
he added the modular grav vehicle rules, much crunchy
goodness.

John
jwdh71@yahoo.com
 
> > 
> > 
> > Thank you VERY much, this is a life saver. Now all
> I
> > have to do is build a couple of ships, half a
> dozen
> > PC's and about 10 NPC's by Friday. Peice of cake.
> :-)
> > 
> > --- Mike West <mjwest@caddocourt.com> wrote:
> > > http://webpages.charter.net/tombont/
> > > 
> > > I *love* this program.  He does take some minor
> > > liberties,
> > > but it is more than close enough and it does the
> > > ugly stuff
> > > for you to make your life easier.
> > > 
> > > Mike West
> > > mjwest@caddocourt.com 
> > > 
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > 
> > > > Excuse me, but does anyone happen to know the
> URL
> > > of
> > > > the GTS program by Thomas Bont? All the
> addresses
> > > I
> > > > have for it are broken, and I really need that
> > > program
> > > > yesterday. I have a chance to get a two-part
> > > GURPS:
> > > > Traveller game together, during a weekend
> mini-con
> > > at
> > > > the local game store, and I really need a
> couple
> > > of
> > > > ships fast. Well, faster than I can do them by
> > > hand,
> > > > anyway. Thanks for your help (in advance).
> > > > 
> > > > John
> > > > jwdh71@yahoo.com 
> > > > 
> > > >
> __________________________________________________
> > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
> > > > http://health.yahoo.com
> > > >
> _______________________________________________
> > > > TML mailing list
> > > > TML@travellercentral.com
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> > > > 



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 23:45:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Clint Rynners)
Date: Tue Aug  6 22:45:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
Message-ID: <OFDEC7001F.B4AA8375-ON42256C0E.001D1133@ko.com>

"Sufficiently advanced technology makes life on an airless
rockball possible - why would such a species need to preserve
its wildlife?"

Mr Kwon

I wondered about that myself, but had no ready answers, not being a
biologist. I partially agree that we would not need to preserve our
wildlife, but I believe that we need biomass in some form to survive.
Perhaps not as complex a system as we currently have on Earth, but in some
form that provides life support for us. We could speculate that an advanced
species could move beyond biological dependency - living as complex pieces
of code in a virtual reality, or in more robust machine forms. However, I
do think that before we reach this stage, we are going to remain dependent
on a biological system that we poorly understand and which we have severely
damaged. I am not a rabid vegan greeny, but I do believe that we have to
change the way we do things before we can marshal the resources to expand
off our world.

"If a warlike species
came to be dominated by a single high tech faction, through
limited nuclear war and genocidal action, and used this high
technology to permanently dominate and subjugate its
population, it would survive its birth into a nuclear age and
birth into a starfaring age."

Your contention that the solution to problems caused by exponential growth
does not have to be peaceful has merit,  I just don't believe that it will
happen with humanity now. At this stage of our global society, where one
power possibly has the military lead necessary to take the path you
suggest, the will is no longer there. This has something to do with a
hangover from the horrors that were visited on the world over the past 50
years. I do believe that if the USA mobilised fully, it could impose a
single world government, but I think the cost would be terrible.

Could it turned out differently? Possibly, but I don't have the frame of
reference for seeing this. In the one example we have to go on, a single
power has never had such a clear lead that an attempt at global control
would not  have entailed a great risk to the extermination of humanity. I
also note that the great warmongering empires have not persisted for very
long when they attempted to impose their version of manifest destiny on the
world. If you belong to a warmongering species, your opponents are not
going to roll over and play dead.

Having said all this, if sentient life is fairly widespread in our
universe, then the probability of of your scenario occuring could be high,
and likely to have advanced very far already. To misquote Fermi: "Where are
they" then? Even if your warmongering species exists, I retain my
contention that we would be regarded as more of a curiosity than a threat.
We are far more likely to be harvested in some way than simply
exterminated.

Regards

Clint Rynners

ps. after a flurry of typing, I read my response and note that rather than
being focused, it is a meander between a number of different ideas. I hope
it is at least slightly understandable :)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 00:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Tue Aug  6 23:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <20020807020627.6743406c80f7471790ae6758c061e780.in@keywest.kennett.net>

<snip good info.>

Thanks.  Anybody can provide with how the Royal Navy does it?  Has the USN
changed anything from the afore-explained procedure? 

>I think that because the Imperial Navy has such a long history, it
>probably has a lot of cool traditions. Anything that you threw in for
>color, like Marines in some traditional dress uniforms standing behind
>the "quarterdeck", the transfer of a baton, staff or whistle, maybe a
>reading of the ship's history...

Oddly enough....I ask this question because I was busy plotting a story and
realized that I, despite knowing a bit about military, military history,
military life, and military tech, suffered from some gapping holes in my
knowledge base.  That was one of it.

Thanks,

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

 My Sale List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
 My Want List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 00:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue Aug  6 23:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <20020807054503.7786.43314.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentra
 l.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020807234111.009faa50@mailhost.efn.org>

> >Heh. Anyone remember the classic SF story "Allamagoosa?"
>
>Has anyone seen the offog?

"Please describe how official dog Peaslake came apart under gravitational 
stress..."


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 01:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Wed Aug  7 00:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <OFDEC7001F.B4AA8375-ON42256C0E.001D1133@ko.com>
Message-ID: <3D5174AB.19191.F0AB707@localhost>

On 7 Aug 2002, at 7:47, Clint Rynners wrote:

> I wondered about that myself, but had no ready answers, not being a
> biologist. I partially agree that we would not need to preserve our
> wildlife, but I believe that we need biomass in some form to survive.

At the current rates of extinction, somewhere between every six months 
and two years (depending on which biologist you listen to) we destroy one 
undiscovered medicine.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 02:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Wed Aug  7 01:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : OK, Now What?
Message-ID: <000801c23de9$3cfa8300$c69c67cb@robert>

John Kwon wrote:-
> First I keep reading that plasma weapons are not possible -
> the bolt would dissipate a short distance from the barrel.  
<snip>

One potential problem was with dissipation, the other with
the ridiculous energies required (there's a good line in 'Guns, Guns,
Guns'
comparing PGMP-like weapons to Bangalore torpedoes...)

There's been a lot of recent research into ball lightning. Maybe a
militarily useful amount of plasma can be packaged in this way.

Another alternative (as recently seen on rec.arts.sf.science) are
weapons
that fire very small projectiles (~1 gram mass) at high (10s of
kilometers/sec) velocities. These will leave plasma trails as they zip
through the air...


Robert O'Connor
Medico, gamer


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 02:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed Aug  7 01:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Spam Spam Spam Spam...
In-Reply-To: <19d.66884a1.2a7f37e7@aol.com>
References: <19d.66884a1.2a7f37e7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020807105440.0a18f64c.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Sun, 04 Aug 2002 22:07:35 -0400 (EDT)
GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:

> I would expect that any planet in Solomani space settled by Hawaiians would 
> either create or import vast amounts.  How widespread it would get really 
> depends on shelf-life and the viability of swine off Terra. It may just be 
> that pigs just don't taste the same when raised elsewhere, and so all Spam 
> comes from Terra...

Although very oddd, this would make SPAM a luxury product for offworlders...

Come to think of it, most products that come from special places are not considered luxuries there, but they probably are at other locations.

Groat Musk Perfume would be a nasty thing to hit the PCs with...  ;-)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 02:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed Aug  7 01:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] adventure
In-Reply-To: <1ac.6380721.2a7f37b7@aol.com>
References: <1ac.6380721.2a7f37b7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020807105753.493c4a62.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Sun, 04 Aug 2002 22:06:47 -0400 (EDT)
Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> Traveller Adventure: Comet Busters
> 
> For referees only.  If you intend to play this adventure, quit reading now 
> and direct your game referee to this page. 

*sound of harddrive saving file*

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 03:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Wed Aug  7 02:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: army usage
In-Reply-To: <159.121cd731.2a81f025@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D5193C8.30462.F843FC6@localhost>

On 6 Aug 2002, at 23:38, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:


>  >Tommy, you should do some research, too.  The Taliban was composed
>  >primarily of Pakistani and Saudi volunteers who called themselves
>  >"students" (of Islam).

> No.  To my knowledge, on that particular point he's right.  The Taliban 
> stronghold is in the large and populous tribes of southern Afghanistan.  As I
> understand it they are the largest single group of tribes and are in fact
> extensions of the tribes in Pakistan, which would be why Pakistan supported
> them.  It was Al Qaida that were "the Arabs", the foreigners.

Without wanting to get too bogged down into the ins and outs of 
Afghanistan, everybody is wrong and everybody is right. The Taliban 
themselves drew a hard core of support from the Pashtuns (the largest 
ethnic group in Afghanistan).

However, it is a mistake to think that the Taliban were supported by the 
majority of the Afghan population. While the Pashtuns are the largest 
group, they do not form a majority; nor did the Taliban draw their support 
from even a majority of Pashtuns. But the previous rulers (later known as 
the Northern Alliance) engaged in a vicious civil war (even by the standards 
of civil wars) and into this stepped the Taliban (with considerable Pakistani 
and Al Quida support). They started to get an upper hand in the civil war 
and the various tribal warlords saw what they thought was a winner and 
lined up behind them. This created a snowball and very quickly the Taliban 
were in charge.

Fast forward a few years, the former rulers (now known as the Northern 
Alliance) are being slowly ground down. Then enter the US and other 
Western nations with lavish air and logistic support. The various tribal 
warlords see what they think is a winner, line up behind them and the 
same snowball sweeps the Taliban out of power.

Now things have reverted back to the "classic" Afghani pattern. There is a 
"King" controlling Kabul in nominal charge of the country, but the real 
control is in the hands of the various tribal warlords. You have examples 
with US officers turning up at a tribal chieftain's camp and paying him in 
gold for the use of his warriors.

ObTrav: If you can't make a decent low tech govt 0 backwater out of that, 
you just aren't trying.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 04:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug  7 03:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] GURPS MISSILE WARFARE (was The big fleet debate)
In-Reply-To: <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com> <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com> <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net> <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net> <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>

hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> One interesting development was to build a specialized targeting
> computer.

Yes, I've since realised that it is well worth it.  I had thought that
surely a dedicated mainframe or macroframe would be too expensive, but
apparently not.


> The point defense lasers I built could easily attain that ROF bonus. 

Oh, sure.  I had thought you were talking about the standard lasers.
Higher RoF really isn't worth it under the GT rules though.


> Minor thoughts: part of that +10 bonus for Point defense comes of the fact
> that the missiles attempting to hit you have to come in from a specific
> "region".

If that is the reason, the designers overlooked a very important fact:
missiles can, and will, maneuver widely in flight.  The potential
approach region could be nearly 60 degrees wide without much effect on
impact energy.

I think the +10 point defense bonus was really an attempt to model a
"wait till you see the whites of their eyes" perfect firing solution.
Basically it should just say that the range penalty is -29, instead of
range -39 with a random +10 bonus.  Even then, it should really only
be about +5, appropriate for a range of 700 miles.  It doesn't do much
good to disable a kinetic-kill missile 0.3 seconds before it hits.


>  But you are correct.  There should be a MAX number of targets that
> can be engaged by a single laser group per turn equal to the max
> number of shots a single laser in the grouping and put out in a
> turn.

More precisely, equal to how many shots one laser can fire in the time
it takes a missile to get in from the laser's max range.  That time
will almost always be much less than a turn, typically a tenth.


> Using the concept that the current weapon systems are designed to
> operate against the current enemy weapon technology - try using the
> GURPS TRAVELLER missile designs first.  Then do an analysis of
> weapons in the TRAVELLER universe.

Yes, even the standard missiles defeat equal tonnage of standard point
defense, but not by a lot.  The problem is that there is *huge* room
for improvement in the missiles, but not much room for improvement in
the lasers.


> I am still flabberghasted that no one ever noticed that the FAST
> drug makes a FAR better alternative for cheap travel than does a
> freeze tube!

I'm not particularly surprised :)

Often it takes an outside opinion to spot such things.  That's why
game designers have playtests, after all!


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 04:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug  7 03:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <3D4F3B54.62F77189@mindspring.com>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com> <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net> <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <20020805075953.A24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <3436.64.8.3.28.1028520584.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <20020805215043.E25687@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D4F3B54.62F77189@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020807204852.B31397@freeman.little-possums.net>

alan spik wrote:
> I always considered the HE as essentially a frag grenade for
> ships. A small cloud of debris having a better chance to hit.

Yeah, that works too.  Maybe that accounts for the low impact damage
of missiles in G:Traveller compared to G:Vehicles.  80% of the
fragments miss...


> Thanks for a nasty tactic. The Forinians IMMTU are going to be using
> that. I was going to have to bring in more help. I think it will be
> quite a suprise to my players.

Work out what happens if the launching ship can get a run-up of, say,
0.1 AU at 6 gees.  That's a hundred hexes per turn to begin with.  If
the player's side is jumping in to a defended system, their jump flash
will mean that the defender has a very distinct sensor advantage.

I hope it's not the player's ship that gets hit.  200,000 points of
damage per missile is not conducive to a lengthy game session 8^O


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 04:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug  7 03:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
In-Reply-To: <20020806185605.50939.qmail@web10605.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020806185605.50939.qmail@web10605.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020807205547.C31397@freeman.little-possums.net>

Daniel Burns wrote:
> Unlike GT where it seems you can spot those nasty c-rocks at a few

"Argh! Don't say that word!"

> parsecs while they are ramped up to speed,

Sure, a decade or so later when the sensor information gets to you.
It's poking along at light-speed, remember?  :)


> and be waiting for the emergence a week later which will also show
> up easily, right in the middle of your defence solution.  Oops, a
> rant? Well at least 'twas short ;)

Yes, the emergence will be noted.  Not much good that does them
though.  You godda problem wiv dat? ;)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 07:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug  7 06:35:04 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Landgrab of Vilis
Message-ID: <b027a2b020e3.b020e3b027a2@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Date: Tuesday, August 6, 2002 3:08 am
Subject: [TML] re:  Landgrab of Vilis

> >From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
> 
> >If I'm doing Vilis, I think I had better do Garda-Vilis, 
> >unless someone has already done that one.
> 
> That's Tanoose to you, apologist scum!
> 
> This message has been brought to you by the Tanoose Freedom League.


IMTU, as long as the 1199th Infantry Regiment (Jump) (Commando) is 
stationed there, it's Garda-Vilis, thank you very much. ;-)

<<snip disclaimer>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 07:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed Aug  7 06:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D39@USCHM203>

>Leonard Erickson wrote:

>But shooting prisoners or mistreating them is against our *laws*. Which
>is one reason why a number of folks are more that a bit upswet about
>the fact that at the current time we are *violating* our own laws when
>it comes to the people taken prisoner in Afghanistan and held at
>Guantanamo Bay. They haven't been accorded prisoner of war status, nor
>have they been classified as criminals awaiting trial.

>We are damaging our own legal system *badly* by doing this. And that
>and other similar things we are doing are actually more apt to destroy
>the US than the actions of the terrorists!

Actually, these men are NOT POWs. Technically we could have them summarily
executed, and it would be perfectly legal, though would upset alot of
bleeding hearts. 
Partisans, saboteurs, spies, and other irregulars, which certainly includes
terrorists, are not protected by either formal or informal Rules of War or
the Geneva Convention.
During WWII those captured were shot out of hand most of the time, and it
was not considered illegal. I can't recall a single German officer being
tried for shooting such troops (as opposed to retaliating against civilians
for the actions of partisans, which IS illegal).
Allied soldiers and civilians who participated in such covert and irregular
actions were fully aware that they would not be treated as POWs if captured.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 07:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Aug  7 06:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Landgrab of Vilis
Message-ID: <200208071346.MGL01636@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

john groth, off on an adventure, says

>IMTU, as long as the 1199th Infantry Regiment (Jump) 
>(Commando) is stationed there, it's Garda-Vilis, thank you 
>very much. ;-)
>

Mark Urbin will be doing Garda-Vilis, and we'll look into 
putting something there.  The backdrop of the Broadsword 
adventure, however, seems to be that Vilis doesn't have a 
strong military presence at Garda-Vilis, and therefore they 
hire the Broadsword and its mercenaries.

Later in the adventure, merchant ships containing a Vilis 
infantry unit arrives, so this could be the 1199th.

It's odd.  Considering the sheer number of people on Vilis, 
one might imagine that it would have infantrymen coming out 
of their ears.

Also, another oddity - Vilis seems to have a TL 12 ship in 
its navy, although Vilis is not TL 12.  Is this an obsolete 
Imperial ship purchased by Vilis?  Is this sort of thing 
common?  
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 07:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Aug  7 06:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] John Beats The Dead Horse of Imperial Rules Of War...
Message-ID: <200208071354.MGL02479@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Hurrel, Brian says
>Technically we could have them summarily executed, and it 
>would be perfectly legal, though would upset alot of
>bleeding hearts. 

In RL there is the Hague and Geneva Convention.  Plenty of RL 
canon, and lawyers who can pontificate on the subject.

In Traveller, are there distinctions between soldiers, 
combatants (non-uniformed, ad hoc non-soldiers), and non-
combatants?  Obviously, the Hague Convention idea 
that "hollow points are bad" is right out, as the Gauss rifle 
round is described as a hollowpoint.  Not to mention that 
shooting people with a plasma gun is a bit more overkill than 
shooting them with a .50 BMG.

The player characters in any Traveller party would often fall 
into the category of illegal combatant.  They aren't wearing 
a uniform, they don't belong to an official army, and aren't 
part of an officially responsible chain of command.  In a war 
zone, if they were caught fighting an official military 
force, and they surrendered, would they be considered 
prisoners of war, or would they be shot out of hand after the 
local Imperial Marine lieutenant heard his platoon sergeant's 
report?

I'm assuming, of course, that someone in the party was stupid 
enough to fire at the Marines, and that by some miracle, the 
party was not annihilated by the return fire...
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 08:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Wed Aug  7 07:04:03 2002
Subject: MT Vehicles (was: Re: [TML] Landgrab )
References: <OF72559D70.D8259EC8-ONCA256C0E.0010593F@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <000401c23e1b$85fa2ec0$5600a8c0@imogen>

Hyphen wrote:
> Peter asked:
> >Does anyone have (or know of) some software  or  spreadsheet  for
> >creating ground vehicles using MT rules?  I need to create  about
> >a dozen different military vehicles for my Efate landgrab.
> 
> I created one, but it is a little basic and assumes you have the
> rules to plug the numbers in. (I did it years ago when I was
> worried about copyright and didn't know how to write a database
> spreadsheet. I still don't... ;-)
> 
> I downloaded one from the 'net... Ships III from Ace and The Dog's 
> website. However, I can't remember if it covers vehicles. It's a
> bit flaky and can crash unexpectedly, so save often!
>         http://www.ace-dog.com/downloads/downloads.htm
> 
> Would pulling a couple of designs from 101 Vehicles help? What are
> you after, specifically?

Ships III doesn't do vehicles (according to its manual there  are
no ground vehicle drives, etc).  I have been trying  to  use  the
DOS program for vehicles from the same site but it seems to  have
major flaws (either that or my own math  is  way  off).  And  101
Vehicles doesn't have the range I need.

I'm in the process of detailing out the armed forces  of  Efate's
Regular Army for a Landgrab.  As this is  a  place  with  a  high
chance of merc adventures (think  high-tech  'Nam  in  Traveller)
this detail seems more important than with  other  Landgrabs.  So
far I have a need for an MBT, an air  defence  AFV,  3  different
artillery AFVs, assorted AFVs for EW/ND/command/commo, a recovery
vehicle, a field repair vehicle, a G-Carrier with 3 variants,  an
APC with 5 variants, and a fast recon vehicle (possibly a  Trasea
grav bike for the last).  Before I'm done  I'll  probably  double
this list, and thats before I get to the COACC  aerospace  units,
the rear  echelon  support  vehicles,  or  the  typical  civilian
vehicles used by the militia on both sides!  If  anyone's  got  a
fetish for designing lots of MT vehicles I could pre-release  the
unit org charts for a better understanding of the requirements.

Hmmm ... or how about a TL 13 military vehicle rodeo (MT only)?

Regards PLST





From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 08:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed Aug  7 07:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Yankee Imperium (was Dehumanization)
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D3D@USCHM203>

>Clint Rynners wrote:
>[snip large essay]

>I do believe that if the USA mobilised fully, it could impose a
>single world government, but I think the cost would be terrible.

>[snip large essay]

I'm taking this snippet completely out of context, but it got me thinking
...sometimes...I wonder...then I realize he's right, the cost would be
terrible....
On the other hand, what would MY position be in this United States of the
World? Would it be like the Terrans taking over the Ziru Sirka?
Our friends up north, across the pond, and down under (you know who you are)
will rule alongside us----no, on second thought, we'll just allow you
limited home rule.
France will be ceded to Germany (to be ruled by appointed Governor David
Hasselhoff), just because. 
Everyone else shall fall under the shadow of the Golden Arches and Mickey
Mouse.
And Switzerland will not be allowed to remain neutral this time.
As for that troublesome part of the world in the news lately...well, with
one world government, there will be no need for nuclear weapons----date and
time of America Rules fireworks display shall be posted.
Oh, and Traveller Game Sessions will be mandatory through grades 9-12.

...I really need to get to bed earlier.....



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 08:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug  7 07:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump governor
Message-ID: <b35fd8b30977.b30977b35fd8@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: MJ Dougherty <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Date: Tuesday, August 6, 2002 12:30 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Jump governor

> 
> > I don't see these in High Guard - IMTU, they don't exist.  If
> > a Jump-4 ship jumps 2 parsecs, they only use 2 parsecs worth
> > of fuel.
> >
> > What was the last canon word on this subject, if any?
> 
> Marc's last statement (and confirmed to me in a question I asked a 
> whileago) was that if you have J-3 fuel and you J-1, you only use 
> J1 of fuel up.

IIRC, the concept of jump governors was based on the following:

1.  LBB2 states that all jump fuel is used in a single jump, regardless 
of the distance of the jump (I'll have to head back to my barracks room 
later to find the page reference; it may be from an earlier printing of 
LBB2).
2.  HG2 indicates that, as per MWM's statement referenced above, you use 
fuel only for the distance actually travelled.
3.  A "jump governor" was a device that could be retrofitted to LBB2 
ships' jump drives to give them HG2 levels of fuel efficiency.

As later versions of Traveller all assume jump fuel usage to be similar 
or superior to that of HG2, jump governors are no longer addressed.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 08:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Wed Aug  7 07:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D39@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <3D51D5BF.15510.1085EB73@localhost>

On 7 Aug 2002, at 9:38, Hurrel, Brian wrote:

> Actually, these men are NOT POWs. Technically we could have them summarily
> executed, and it would be perfectly legal, though would upset alot of bleeding
> hearts. Partisans, saboteurs, spies, and other irregulars, which certainly
> includes terrorists, are not protected by either formal or informal Rules of
> War or the Geneva Convention. During WWII those captured were shot out of hand
> most of the time, and it was not considered illegal. I can't recall a single
> German officer being tried for shooting such troops (as opposed to retaliating
> against civilians for the actions of partisans, which IS illegal). Allied
> soldiers and civilians who participated in such covert and irregular actions
> were fully aware that they would not be treated as POWs if captured.

The rules changed after the 2nd WW (in response to exactly the situation 
you describe). Irregular combantants are explicitly covered now. Check 
Article 4 of the 1949 Geneva Convention on POWs (the Al Quida prisioners 
can make a pretty darn strong case under 4:2 BTW):

Article 4
A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons 
belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power 
of the enemy:
1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as 
members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.
2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, 
including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party 
to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this 
territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, 
including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following 
conditions:
(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
(c) That of carrying arms openly;
(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and 
customs of war.
3. Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a 
government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.
4. Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being 
members thereof, such as civilian members of military aircraft crews, war 
correspondents, supply contractors, members of labour units or of services 
responsible for the welfare of the armed forces, provided that they have 
received authorization from the armed forces which they accompany, who 
shall provide them for that purpose with an identity card similar to the 
annexed model.
5. Members of crews, including masters, pilots and apprentices, of the 
merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, 
who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions 
of international law.
6. Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the 
enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without 
having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they 
carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.

BTW its incumbant on the *detaining* power to disprove a potential POWs 
status. When in doubt, they have to be accorded POW status until the 
detaining power proves that they don't.

You'll also find similar articles in the 1975 Hague Conventions and the 1987 
Geneva Declaration on Terrorism.

ObTrav: Not much, how many PC mercenary groups retain a lawyer to 
keep upto date on the latest intepretations of the Rules of War.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 08:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Wed Aug  7 07:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] John Beats The Dead Horse of Imperial Rules Of War...
In-Reply-To: <200208071354.MGL02479@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D51DB9E.19603.109CDB0F@localhost>

On 7 Aug 2002, at 9:54, John T. Kwon wrote:

> The player characters in any Traveller party would often fall 
> into the category of illegal combatant.  They aren't wearing 
> a uniform, they don't belong to an official army, and aren't 
> part of an officially responsible chain of command.  In a war 
> zone, if they were caught fighting an official military 
> force, and they surrendered, 

If the relevant Interstellar Conventions follow the relevant RL ones, they 
could well be "legal combatants". You don't need to be part of an official 
chain of command, just have a some one clearly in charge (ie a unit CO). 
You don't need to be wearing a uniform, just a "fixed distinctive sign 
recognizable at a distance" (a simple armband will do). And you don't need 
to be part of the official army, just recognised by one of the parties. Heck 
you've even got protection for "Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who 
on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the 
invading forces" (depending on the circumstances). I'd imagine that the 
various Ine Givar Cadre's in FFW could well come under these catagories.

However, I think most PC would fail due to the "Conduct their operations in 
accordance with the laws and customs of war" (how many PC groups have 
you seen that would meet that criteria :*>)
 
> would they be considered 
> prisoners of war, or would they be shot out of hand after the 
> local Imperial Marine lieutenant heard his platoon sergeant's 
> report?

Assuming they actually made it into custody (ie the platoon didn't just gun 
them down and worry about the legal niceties later), I doubt they'd be shot 
out of hand. Far better for the Marine Lt to play it safe and send them up 
the line, and leave the decisions as to their combatant status to someone 
less likely to face a disciplinary board for getting it wrong.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 09:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Aug  7 08:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Landgrab of Vilis
Message-ID: <20020807150956.2D7CE4509@mo120usjc.palm.net>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:
>Mark Urbin will be doing Garda-Vilis, and we'll look into  
>putting something there.  The backdrop of the Broadsword  
>adventure, however, seems to be that Vilis doesn't have a  
>strong military presence at Garda-Vilis, and therefore they  
>hire the Broadsword and its mercenaries. 
>Later in the adventure, merchant ships containing a Vilis  
>infantry unit arrives, so this could be the 1199th. 

Jump Commandos sounds more like a well funded Imperial unit to me.
Some number cruncher will probably point out that every TL 4+ planet with a population over 500,000 can afford it's own regiment of Jump Commandos though. :-)

>It's odd.  Considering the sheer number of people on Vilis,  
>one might imagine that it would have infantrymen coming out  
>of their ears. 

This could be political function. 
IMTU, Vilis has a large urban underclass that produces violent gangs.  These gangers, when rounded up, are often given the choice of the Imperial Marines or something that would make a stint in MyMines (tm) look good.

So, if Vilis were to set up a good 'ginder' boot camp process (like the Pournelle CoDo Marines), the could churn out decent Light Infantry.
Useful for merc work as well as local defense.  

>Also, another oddity - Vilis seems to have a TL 12 ship in  
>its navy, although Vilis is not TL 12.  Is this an obsolete  
>Imperial ship purchased by Vilis?  Is this sort of thing  
>common?   

My memory says yes, according to canon.  The Imperial Navy (or perhaps even the Sector Navy) probably gave them a good price for it.

>FRONT TOWARD ENEMY 
----------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere. 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 09:27:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Aug  7 08:27:08 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <3D5174AB.19191.F0AB707@localhost>
References: <3D5174AB.19191.F0AB707@localhost>
Message-ID: <m365ymsna4.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> writes:
> 
> At the current rates of extinction, somewhere between every six
> months and two years (depending on which biologist you listen to) we
> destroy one undiscovered medicine.

We destroy one natural source of an undiscovered medicine, perhaps.
But we can synthesise just about anything these days.  My best friend
is a biochemist (well, almost--getting his PhD in a year), and if I
remember our conversations correctly, most biochemistry these days is
_not_ `oh, some old wives' tale says this is good; let's try it,' but
rather `let's see which substances we can squeeze through _this_
barrier,' i.e. it's pretty much known what most substances are going
to do; the trick is to get them through cell walls, preserve them
until they hit the right parts of the body, keep them from hitting the
wrong parts.

The company he's interning with essentially takes a patented molecule,
developes a thousand variations on it, and sells those variations back
to the original patenter, IIRC.

But perhaps there are practicing biochemists on the list who have
better knowledge than dimly-remembered conversations between
students...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it
flips over, pinning you underneath.  At night, the ice weasels
come.                                          --Matt Groening

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 10:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Aug  7 09:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
Message-ID: <F147AHJb3f9oUwnX8hD000049be@hotmail.com>

From: John Hamill <jwdh71@yahoo.com>

     "I have a chance to get a two-part GURPS:Traveller game together, 
during a weekend mini-con at the local game store, and I really need a 
couple of ships fast. Well, faster than I can do them by hand, anyway."


Mr. Hamill,

     IIRC, the BITS website has a wonderful, massive, and free PDF download 
chocked full of G:T ships.  Al TLs, all races, all functions too.  Why build 
ships when someone else has done the work for you already?  :)
     A free PDF reader can be downloaded at the Adobe webiste too.
     Google should point you to both locations.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 10:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed Aug  7 09:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15FA@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

We aim to please :)  And it was three days ago ;)  Only one shot of some stuff I'm working on for BITS, and it'll be replaced with a better shot shortly, but you get the idea ;D
Jesse


Love it! Some friendly banter between Penguin Boy and The Polygon Kid.

I'm settling down with some popcorn.

;-)  ;-)

(BTW Jesse, when your next page update going to happen? %^)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 10:17:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed Aug  7 09:17:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15F9@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Well, if Marc'll ever get back to me on it, that could happen ;)  Stay tuned...
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: David Smart [mailto:jurrubin@earthlink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 5:15 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .


Mark C. posted:
> 
> Jesse DeGraff <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> writes:
> 
> > What about artists?  ;)
> 
> Sure, why not?  Do you know any? >^)
> 
>     - Mark C.

Oh, gawd, puh-LEEZE let him on it. Maybe SJG will one
day market his graphics on T-shirts (HINT, HINT!).

Do you know how difficult it is for me to NOT
print T-shirts of his stuff for personal use?

David Smart
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 10:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed Aug  7 09:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D4D@USCHM203>

>Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance wrote:

>The rules changed after the 2nd WW (in response to exactly the situation 
>you describe). Irregular combantants are explicitly covered now. Check 
>Article 4 of the 1949 Geneva Convention on POWs (the Al Quida prisioners 
>can make a pretty darn strong case under 4:2 BTW):

I didn't know about that, though it does sound reasonable in may cases which
can be considered "gray areas".

>"(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and 
>customs of war."

Obviously actively engaged terrorists violate this requirement, but I have
to admit that it might be a tough case to prove against Al Quaida members
captured in Afghanistan. Legally prove. In reality, I know it, you know it,
and they know it.
Unless you make the entire organization responsible for 9/11 and other acts
of terrorism in an attempt to destroy the US, which is their stated aim.
They even have manuals for various acts, and explicitly condone the use of
torture for the cause (for the record, those in the US advocating the same
are idiots of the worst order). 
So IMHO, any Al Quaida are fair game for the firing squad.

Apologies for off-topic, though it does bring up some interesting threads
regarding how player characters that are not part of an official army would
be treated.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 10:22:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed Aug  7 09:22:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15FB@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

I don't have a problem with personal use, provided 1.you buy my shirts if/when I can get a deal worked out with Marc ;D and 2.you only use non-SJG images that are on my site.  Oh, and a fine-print copyright notice should be added to the picture ;)  If you don't have the graphics software to do it, let me know and I'd be happy to.  I may even render a better/bigger/uncompressed picture for you to use if ask nicely ;)
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
[mailto:david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au]
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 7:33 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .


Dear Folks -

David Smart wrote:
>Do you know how difficult it is for me to NOT
>print T-shirts of his stuff for personal use?

I'd been thinking about this for a while, too. A copyright question that I 
don't know the answer to is, "Is it 'fair use' if I put a Jesse picture on 
ONE T-Shirt for my own use?"

The alternative I thought of was asking Jesse for permission to make _two_ 
shirts, and sending him the second one as "payment". ;-)

Jesse, your thoughts?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 10:31:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Aug  7 09:31:19 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <20020807162904.96842.qmail@web20418.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com

>A Hollywood version of the change of command (and a damned good 
>performance by Humphrey Bogart) can be seen in THE CAINE MUTINY. A 

Funny that you should mention that film as I'm about to start eating
the strawberries I brought from home.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 10:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Aug  7 09:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: army usage
In-Reply-To: <159.121cd731.2a81f025@aol.com>
References: <159.121cd731.2a81f025@aol.com>
Message-ID: <p04330102b976fd8e5a14@[198.123.22.179]>

At 11:38 PM -0400 8/6/02, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
>  >>I really think you should do some research on the situation in
>  >>Afganisthan and how everything went down before blurting things out.
>  >>The main population of Afganisthan was opposed to the Taliban, which
>  >>is mainly from a tribe to the south west (I think).
>  >
>  >Tommy, you should do some research, too.  The Taliban was composed
>  >primarily of Pakistani and Saudi volunteers who called themselves
>  >"students" (of Islam).
>
>No.  To my knowledge, on that particular point he's right.  The Taliban
>stronghold is in the large and populous tribes of southern Afghanistan.

Except the Taliban had lost a lot of support even amongst the Pashtun.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 10:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Aug  7 09:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <200208071651.MGR02547@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Wait a minute.  If it's a rule of men, and not laws, it's 
entirely possible that a conquering force can arbitrarily 
dictate who gets shot without a trial just by saying so.

And the neat thing about it is that they don't have to resort 
to legal arguments, twisted vocabulary, or "kid' logic.
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 10:57:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Aug  7 09:57:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <200208071651.MGR02547@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028739389.7419.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> Wait a minute.  If it's a rule of men, and not laws, it's 
> entirely possible that a conquering force can arbitrarily 
> dictate who gets shot without a trial just by saying so.

Yeah.  That statement, to the degree it's true, is certainly one of the less
pleasant aspects of the 3I.  If you assume a real 'noblisse oblige' it can be a
positive effect, but in general it's born to be abused.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:01:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:01:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : OK, Now What?
Message-ID: <20020807165913.28112.qmail@web20417.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>

>There's been a lot of recent research into ball lightning. Maybe a
>militarily useful amount of plasma can be packaged in this way.

Fans of the Command and Conquer computer game will be familiar with
the tesla coil.  The Germans were working on a device like this
during WW2, but must not have gotten it operational.

--Glenn


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <20020807170626.8059.qmail@web20418.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>

>Actually, these men are NOT POWs. Technically we could have them 
>summarily executed, and it would be perfectly legal, though would
>upset alot of bleeding hearts. 
>
>Partisans, saboteurs, spies, and other irregulars, which certainly 
>includes terrorists, are not protected by either formal or informal
>Rules of War or the Geneva Convention.
>
>During WWII those captured were shot out of hand most of the time, 
>and it was not considered illegal. I can't recall a single German
>officer being tried for shooting such troops (as opposed to 

Yes, if you have the time and resources, it makes sense to
interrogate them first and shoot them later -- or, interrogate them
first, make some of the information public and attribute it to the
detainees, and return them to their homes, where their former
colleagues will kill them for snitching.  

Hmm ... I wonder if my current set of players (playing police
officers) will think of that approach to interrogation.  

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <3D506907.B582A8E7@mindspring.com>
References: <200208070000.MFJ02183@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <3D506907.B582A8E7@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m3wur2r423.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

alan spik <babyduck@mindspring.com> writes:
> 
> I don't think the Navy was that organized.  Read with amusement
> Doug's post about marching.  At every CoC I attended, we were given
> a time to be there.  We were expected to, and did meander our way
> over and meet the Chief who would tell us where to stand.  Usually a
> big gaggle(Pod?), then the Master Chief would come out and make
> everyone straiten up in ranks, and the show would get started about
> thirty minutes later.  I remember several people falling out.

That sounds like the Navy I know.  At the All-Academy Balls the West
Pointers (great giants of men) would stand there, stiff and formal,
when introduced.  The marine services (Navy, Coast Guards, Merchant
Marines) were much more relaxed--they're sailors, after all.  The Air
Force was an odd thing: some tried to be disciplined and failed, while
others didn't try at all.  In fact, there wasn't a year that one of
'em didn't show up in the wrong uniform--or showed up in civilian
clothes!  Pretty girls, though.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The only kind of freedom that the mob can imagine is freedom to annoy
and oppress its betters, and that is precisely the kind that we mainly
have.                                                   --H.L. Mencken

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V.I. Parviainen)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <m365ymsna4.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <3D5174AB.19191.F0AB707@localhost> <m365ymsna4.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020807171434.GA26680@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 09:26:27AM -0600, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> > At the current rates of extinction, somewhere between every six
> > months and two years (depending on which biologist you listen to) we
> > destroy one undiscovered medicine.
> 
> We destroy one natural source of an undiscovered medicine, perhaps.
> But we can synthesise just about anything these days.  

Well, yes, but wouldn't it be a bit easier to synthesise a compound if
you had it beforehand, instead of trying to duplicate the effects from
an old tale?

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:20:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:20:15 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Yankee Imperium
Message-ID: <20020807171936.65485.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>

>Clint Rynners wrote:
>>I do believe that if the USA mobilised fully, it could impose a
>>single world government, but I think the cost would be terrible.

>I'm taking this snippet completely out of context, but it got me 
>thinking ...sometimes...I wonder...then I realize he's right, the
>cost would be terrible....
>On the other hand, what would MY position be in this United States 

No one likes us 
I don't know why. 
We may not be perfect 
But heaven knows we try. 
But all around even our old friends put us down. 
Let's drop the big one and see what happens. 

We give them money 
But are they grateful? 
No they're spiteful 
And they're hateful. 
They don't respect us so let's surprise them; 
We'll drop the big one and pulverize them. 

Now Asia's crowded 
And Europe's too old. 
Africa's far too hot, 
And Canada's too cold. 
And South America stole our name. 
Let's drop the big one; there'll be no one left to blame us. 

Bridge: 
We'll save Australia; 
Don't wanna hurt no kangaroo. 
We'll build an all-American amusement park there; 
They've got surfing, too. 

Well, boom goes London, 
And boom Paris. 
More room for you 
And more room for me. 
And every city the whole world round 
Will just be another American town. 
Oh, how peaceful it'll be; 
We'll set everybody free; 
You'll have Japanese kimonos, baby, 
There'll be Italian shoes for me. 
They all hate us anyhow, 
So let's drop the big one now. 
Let's drop the big one now. 

Randy Newman, Political Science, from the album Sail Away, copied
from
http://www.leoslyrics.com/listlyrics.php?sid=%EEe%3Cy%A1P8%06

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020807171434.GA26680@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028741494.6212.ajackson@ping>

Mikko V.I. Parviainen writes:
> 
> Well, yes, but wouldn't it be a bit easier to synthesise a compound if
> you had it beforehand, instead of trying to duplicate the effects from
> an old tale?

Not exactly the right question.  The question is whether it's more efficient to
chase down old wives' tales, or to ignore the old wives' tales and attempt to
synthesize drugs based on prior understanding of what they ought to do.

The herbal movement notwithstanding, most pharmaceutical companies don't seem
to find chasing down old wives' tales, particularly extremely obscure old
wives' tales, to be really worth doing.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020807171434.GA26680@mimosa.hut.fi>
References: <3D5174AB.19191.F0AB707@localhost>
 <m365ymsna4.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
 <20020807171434.GA26680@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <m37kj2r2wf.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Mikko V.I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi> writes:
>
> > We destroy one natural source of an undiscovered medicine,
> > perhaps.  But we can synthesise just about anything these days.
> 
> Well, yes, but wouldn't it be a bit easier to synthesise a compound
> if you had it beforehand, instead of trying to duplicate the effects
> from an old tale?

But that's the point: as I understand it we've pretty well exhausted
the use of old tales and have moved on.  Not that I discount the
possibility that a remarkable new medicine could be lurking in the
rainforest; simply that I discount the probability.

As I understand it, science understand the effects of most substances:
the trick is to get them where they're needed and not where they're
not.  Which means designing a molecule which will let a drug slip
through one barrier but not another.  Which is tricky.

But, as I wrote, I could be awfully, woefully, terribly wrong.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Of course, if you're writing the code to control a cruise missile, you
may not actually need an explicit loop exit.  The loop will be
terminated automatically at the appropriate moment.
                         -Programming Perl, 3rd Ed.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <3D5050EB.9050601@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <003401c23d98$a70d8680$da29f7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020807102826.009e6ec0@mindspring.com>

At 03:42 PM 8/6/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Fred Ramen wrote:
>
>>I'm probably in a tiny minority here, but I remain unconvinced about
>>Arbellatra's strategic brilliance. Certainly her conduct of the 2FW does not
>>seem to have a personal stamp upon it the way Norris' saving strategy in the
>>5FW does. Canonical info on the war is spotty, of course, but it is
>>described as a "holding action" accompanied by commerce raids. When the
>>dreadnoughts are finally constructed, Arbellatra does not lead them on a
>>reconquest of the Marches, but merely forces a stalemate...and then promptly
>>concedes territory to the Zhodani, as well as separating several other
>>worlds from the Imperium.
>
>Probably this is because she knows she needs to a) bring an end ASAP to 
>the 2FW, and b) She needs those Dreadnaughts to end the rebellion, rather 
>than throwing them into a likely bloody fight to beat the Zhodani back.
>
>The Zho's, being in an expansionist mood at the moment, are only too happy 
>to help her achieve her goals.

I've always seen the Zhodani motivation in the Frontier Wars as keeping the 
Imperium at bay.  The 1st and 2nd wars removed the Imperium  from 
previously settled Zhodani territories and established a buffer zone.  The 
3 - 5 felt more like disruptive actions, designed to keep the Marches 
scared and on the defensive.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:55:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:55:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra (WAS: warship optimization in traveller
 CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208061330150.8694-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
References: <3.0.5.16.20020806113510.45efd91c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020807103324.009f4440@mindspring.com>

At 01:32 PM 8/6/02 -0700, you wrote:
>On Tue, 6 Aug 2002, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>
> > Good model.  I was thinking a bit of Hitler, personally.  Same kind of
> > personal magnetism.
>
>EEK!!!  But I like Arbellatra!

Hey, so do I!  But if you scrub off what he did wh\ith it, the fact remains 
that Hitler was one of the greatest orators in the 20th Century.  His 
magnetism and leadership ability took a tiny fringe party to power in ten 
years.  Picture that kind of ability in an Imperial Admiral, already known 
for her war-fighting ability.  Troops would flock to her.

> > She had a good line.  In this aspect, she's much like St. Jean d'Arc.  The
> > "Maid of Mora" driving to restore the Imperium!  She would find ready
> > converts in Deneb and Corridor. She probably played a different game with
> > the Vilani.  Promises of increased power in the court, culminating with her
> > son's marriage to a Vilani noblewoman in 679.  As she drew closer to
> > Capital, I'm sure that pretender fleets defected en masse rather than face
> > annihilation.
>
>I like Arbellatra la Pucelle much better than Arbellatra as Hitler.

Joan was more message and fire, Adolf sheer energy.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:55:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:55:46 2002
Subject: [TML] army usage
In-Reply-To: <a6.2a3d2ddd.2a81b626@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020807103810.009f6ec0@mindspring.com>

At 07:30 PM 8/6/02 -0400, you wrote:
>
>  >Seriously, from our point of view, Afghanistan was as close to a perfect
>  >situation as you can get.  All we had to do was provide air & logisitcal
>  >support, and the population in the are being attacked wasn't too thrilled
>  >with the current government.  They all aren't going to be that way.
>
>(Actually, it wasn't the population that opposed the Taliban.  it was the
>Northern Alliance.  The only reason the NA isn't pillaging the citizens like
>they were doing before the Taliban kicked them out is because they're
>preoccupied spending all that money that we bribed them with.  Sort of a
>Marshall Plan for bandit chiefs.  Seems to have worked so far.)

Really?  So all those people dancing in the streets, lining up to be 
shaved, digging up radios and TVs, kissing the feet of NA soldiers were 
mirages?

Do a little research, please.

>Well, one wouldn't think so, but as I understand it the plans for attacking
>Iraq involve a repeat of Afghanisan, using "rebels" in the north and south to
>do the actual fighting while we provide airstrikes.  Again:  "Army?  What
>Army?"  To my knowledge the army made not one twitch towards deployment
>during the Afghan battle -- either the authorities were supremely confident
>that they didn't need the army, or they had misgivings about deploying it in
>its present condition.  One wouldn't think Iraq would roll up so handily, but
>no-one thought the Taliban would roll up so fast either.  Apparently we're
>going to find out.

The 75th Regiment (Ranger), the 101st Airborne (Air Assault) and various 
Special Forces groups were all mobilized and on the ground.  Rangers were 
in Afghanistan before the main force of Taliban ceased fighting.  Troops 
from the 82nd Airborne and the 10th Mountain Divisions are still over there 
in the thick of things.

Not one twitch?  The 3rd Infantry Division (Mechanized) was put on 24-hour 
alert and ordered to start preparing for a possible deployment.  Putting 
15,000 men and all their vehicles (Bradleys, Abrams, MLRS) on warning is a 
bit more than a twitch.  I personally know several Army personnel who 
served and were shot at with great enthusiasm.

>On the other hand, if the latest briefs are any indication and we launch any
>military action against the house of Saud, then I think we're going to have
>to occupy everything from Libya to Jakarta.  That _will_ require an army, and
>I'm not sure we have one.

Sure we do!  We'll draft you.  :)

-- 

Douglas E. Berry   gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Cry "CHEEBLE!" and let slip the hamsters of war!



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:56:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:56:01 2002
Subject: [TML] OT:  December ARPC shoot
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15F3@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020807104836.009f6c50@mindspring.com>

At 04:58 PM 8/6/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Good to hear!  I'm desperately going to try to make it up again finally, 
>as the financial situation has improved a little.  Providing of course 
>that I can get a new roomate and don't have to keep paying twice the rent 
>like I am now :(  Also, I'm going to invite Erin again, and maybe I can 
>get my "girlfriend" to go too ;)

I too, shall try to make it up.  I'll be at OryCon the week before that (as 
Gaming GOH, if you can believe that, so unless you can give me rifde, no 
way I can afford to fly twice in that length of time.

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"I'm just trying to evict them. Frogs never pay."
                             - Rose Platt



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 12:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug  7 11:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <sd4ff8f8.002@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020807105540.009efb90@mindspring.com>

At 04:27 PM 8/6/02 -0400, you wrote:
>I think that because the Imperial Navy has such a long history, it
>probably has a lot of cool traditions. Anything that you threw in for
>color, like Marines in some traditional dress uniforms standing behind
>the "quarterdeck", the transfer of a baton, staff or whistle, maybe a
>reading of the ship's history...

Marines in their Dress Maroon, cutlasses raised in present arms.  By 
tradition, the junior Marine in the compliment steps forward, presents his 
cutlass hilt first to the new commander, and says "Sir!  The Marine Force 
is present and ready for you orders."  The new officer salutes the Marine, 
and gives the order "resume your stations."


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 12:17:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Aug  7 11:17:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Friday
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEFDILAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

I've tried to reach you by phone no answer.  
Please email me the information regarding when
Jonie (Joani, Joany (?)) wants to meet
and where too.

I've got to go out so email is a better bet.

________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 12:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Aug  7 11:22:03 2002
Subject: ignore RE: [TML] Friday
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEFDILAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEFEILAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

sorry wrong address, please ignore

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John-Martin
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 11:13 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Friday
Importance: High


I've tried to reach you by phone no answer.  
Please email me the information regarding when
Jonie (Joani, Joany (?)) wants to meet
and where too.

I've got to go out so email is a better bet.

________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 12:34:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Aug  7 11:34:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Three More Silly Questions
In-Reply-To: <m3wur2r423.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <3D506907.B582A8E7@mindspring.com>
 <200208070000.MFJ02183@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <3D506907.B582A8E7@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020807133436.00a777f0@minn.net>

At 11:07 AM 8/7/2002 -0600, Robert Uhl wrote:

>That sounds like the Navy I know.  At the All-Academy Balls the West
>Pointers (great giants of men) would stand there, stiff and formal,
>when introduced.  The marine services (Navy, Coast Guards, Merchant
>Marines) were much more relaxed--they're sailors, after all.  The Air
>Force was an odd thing: some tried to be disciplined and failed, while
>others didn't try at all.  In fact, there wasn't a year that one of
>'em didn't show up in the wrong uniform--or showed up in civilian
>clothes!  Pretty girls, though.

Okay.

Need some information about secondary-level military boarding schools (or
boarding schools in general).

Is there a tradition of senior students supervising (or oppressing) younger
students? If so, can you descibe the process? Off list please.

Where can I find UWP stats for the Uthe subsector? Canon if possible.


Les


==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 12:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Burns)
Date: Wed Aug  7 11:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
Message-ID: <20020807183944.5641.qmail@web10602.mail.yahoo.com>

Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 20:55:47 +1000
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>

Daniel Burns wrote:

> Unlike GT where it seems you can spot those nasty
(inflamatory reference deleted) at a few


"Argh! Don't say that word!"

Well, yeah, I was kinda playing fire there using
'that' as an example, but the flames are soooo pretty
;)


> parsecs while they are ramped up to speed,


"Sure, a decade or so later when the sensor
information gets to you.
It's poking along at light-speed, remember?   [:)] 

D'oh, must stop sleep-typing, I knew that of course
but my brain was awol :) "Would you believe... Our top
psychics are manning our sensor grid right now, and
can get a precognitive firing solution weeks or even
years before the target shows up?" ;)


Seriously Tim, thanks for being so kind to this
insomnia inebriated poster :) your courteousness is
noted.

Dan "far-trader" Burns



______________________________________________________________________ 
Post your ad for free now! http://personals.yahoo.ca

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 12:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed Aug  7 11:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D5A@USCHM203>

>John T. Kwon wrote:

>Wait a minute.  If it's a rule of men, and not laws, it's 
>entirely possible that a conquering force can arbitrarily 
>dictate who gets shot without a trial just by saying so.

>And the neat thing about it is that they don't have to resort 
>to legal arguments, twisted vocabulary, or "kid' logic.

One of the most frightening things I have ever read was a description, by a
fascist, though I can't remember if he was Italian or German, on the
absolute power of the state. I wish I had the exact quote, but it went
something like this:

"If the state says that 2 + 2 = 5, then it is so, and any citizen will tell
you it is so."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D5A@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <B976BD70.68DB2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/7/02 11:56 AM, Hurrel, Brian at brian.hurrel@eds.com wrote:

>=20
> "If the state says that 2 + 2 =3D 5, then it is so, and any citizen will te=
ll
> you it is so."

2 + 2 does equal 5, for very large values of 2.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>

Hello Folks,
   This is in response to Tim's comments regarding point defense lasers.  I 
have a few of them in all, so this is just one of many incoming 
designs.  All of them are TL 12 designs for use with GURPS 
TRAVELLER.  Please note that I was not happy with the "Logic" of having 
turret weapons who required that their "energy power plant be part of the 
main shipboard power plant.  Thus, *ALL* lasers designed by CGI include 
their own power generators.

TL 12
The SL328 is a 328.1 Mega-Joule laser designed to replace the standard 
405-Mj laser. It features an independent power supply such that a power 
loss within the ship does not mean the laser cannot fire. The SL328 comes 
with a battery pack that holds 328,100 kilowatt seconds of power along with 
a fusion generator that produces 14,578 Kilowatts. Total volume taken up by 
the SL328 is 490 cubic feet. Due to the size of this laser, it cannot be 
used in Streamlined turrets.


ROF:                            1/60
Half Damage Range:              2
Max Damage Range:               7
Accuracy:                       32
Damage:                 5d6 x 90 (2)
Spaces:                 .97
Mass in Tons:                   7.33
Cost in MCr.:                   .35
Rate of Fire Bonus:             +7


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:12:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:12:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D5C@USCHM203>

>Glenn M. Goffin wrote:

>Yes, if you have the time and resources, it makes sense to
>interrogate them first and shoot them later -- or, interrogate them
>first, make some of the information public and attribute it to the
>detainees, and return them to their homes, where their former
>colleagues will kill them for snitching

Great story from Vietnam. As usual can't remember the source:

A local village mayor was known to be a VC supporter, but no one could prove
it or do anything about it.
One day some American intelligence types, after a firefight, threw some
recovered VC bodies onto a jeep and drove into the village. They drove up to
the mayor's house.
Now, you have to picture this. The VC bodies are in full view of everyone in
the village.
As far as I know, the mayor did not speak English, and the Americans did not
speak Vietnamese.
The Americans smiled, clapped the horrified mayor on the back, and unloaded
gifts of food, a radio, bundles of cash, etcetera, and drove off.
Three guesses on how long the mayor lived after that?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807151954.024d5a80@mail.buffnet.net>

The SL47 laser system was designed mainly as a trinary weapon system in 
that it works best when used in groups of three. CDI is firmly committed to 
the idea of Accuracy through Firepower, and as such, tends to design it's 
lasers with an eye towards getting the most performance with higher rates 
of fire. The SL47 is designed mainly as a compromise between point defense 
and offense. It will affect any ship who has a DR rating of 500 or less, 
better than 50% of the time. Couple this with the SL47's RoF accuracy, and 
targets out to 30,000 miles away can be affected with a decent chance of 
success. Using a well trained gunner, targets with a displacement size of 
10 tons have been hit 4.6% of the time using a 20 minute firing duration. 
Statistics use as a baseline, a Mark IV Target program. Using a top of the 
line TL11 target computer, running a MarkXII target program, the success 
rate changed from 4.6% success rate to a 62.5% success rate. When used in a 
triple turret, using the standard MarkIV target program, the SL47 changed 
from a 4.6% success rate to a 25.9% success rate.
The SL47 uses a self contained power generator rated at 2,088 Kilowatts, 
and uses a battery rated at 125,302 Kilowatt seconds. Empty volume left 
over after being used in a Standard turret is 1.5 cubic feet in a 
streamlined turret, or 101.5 cubic feet in a non-streamlined turret.

ROF:				10/60
Half Damage Range:		1
Max Damage Range:		3
Accuracy:			30
Damage:			5d6 x 34(2)
Spaces:			.8
Mass in Tons:			3.79
Cost in MCr.:			.19
Rate of Fire Bonus:		+10


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807152459.024ebdf0@mail.buffnet.net>

TL 12
The SL828 is a super laser designed to use all three spaces in an 
unstreamlined turret. Like all of the other SL series lasers, it contains 
its own self contained fusion power plant. It uses a 2,207,448 kilowatt 
second battery, and the power plant produces 36,790 kilowatts of energy. 
Total volume used is 1,495 cubic feet, leaving 5 cubic feet of volume in a 
standard Imperial turret. Due to its higher rate of fire, along with its 
superior penetration value - the SL828 makes for a heavy hitting weapon 
system. The SL828 cannot be used in unstreamlined turrets.



ROF:                            2/60
Half Damage Range:              4
Max Damage Range:               11
Accuracy:                       33
Damage:                 5d6 x 143(2)
Spaces:                 2.99
Mass in Tons:                   20.65
Cost in MCr.:                   .98
Rate of Fire Bonus:             +8


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:19:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:19:27 2002
Subject: [TML] army usage
Message-ID: <89.1bf4851a.2a82cc79@aol.com>

In a message dated 07/08/02 00:33:50 GMT Daylight Time, Flykiller@aol.com 
writes:


On the other hand, if the latest briefs are any indication and we launch any 
military action against the house of Saud, then I think we're going to have 
to occupy everything from Libya to Jakarta.  That _will_ require an army, and 

I'm not sure we have one.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I've been really busy at work recently but I wasn't aware that the US planned 
to invade Saudi Arabia, where, the last time I looked the House of Saud were 
in charge.

The last time Saddam Hussein, leader of Iraq and head of the Ba'ath party, 
was the target.

Have things changed and has the US decided to after the single biggest source 
of  al-Qaida funding?

Charles

I addressed some cheerful chit-chat at the man opposite but was rewarded with 
grunt. I tried the man next to me but he just looked at the gentleman I had 
tried first and said "Do you know what he's talking about?" At this point I 
realised I was getting out my depth but the Dean stepped in and saved me, "Oh 
don't worry about it" he said, "They're mathematicians - we never talk to 
them."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807152728.024eb0f0@mail.buffnet.net>

TL 12
The SL948 was designed to be the hardest hitting laser that CDI could 
manufacture and still retain the design philosophy of self-contained power 
plants for the laser. While it has similar statistics to the SL828, it 
achieves an additional 7% damage at the expense of a lessor accuracy via 
firepower. This system is actually cheaper to purchase than is the SL828. 
Total volume used is 1188.5 cubic feet. When used in a streamlined turret, 
11.5 cubic feet remain unused. When used in a non-streamlined turret, 
leftover volume is 311.5 cubic feet.
The SL948 uses a battery rated at 2,527,368 kilowatt seconds, and uses a 
fusion power plant rated at 42,123 Kilowatts.



ROF:                            1/60
Half Damage Range:              4
Max Damage Range:               12
Accuracy:                       34
Damage:                 5d6 x 153(2)
Spaces:                 2.38
Mass in Tons:                   19.29
Cost in MCr.:                   .91
Rate of Fire Bonus:             +7


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807153004.00a3a9d0@mail.buffnet.net>

The SL90 system, using a 239,940 kilowatt second battery, enjoys the power 
of a 15,996 kilowatt fusion power plant. Like some of the other SL series 
lasers, this laser is designed to fit into streamlined turrets. It has a 
rate of fire that is 4 times that of a Standard 405-Mj laser, and as such, 
enjoys popularity as both as a point defense system, along with that of a 
moderate offensive system. When used in a streamlined turret, excess space 
is 35 cubic feet, or 135 in a non-streamlined turret.


ROF:                            4/60
Half Damage Range:              1
Max Damage Range:               4
Accuracy:                       31
Damage:                 5d6 x 47(2)
Spaces:                 .73
Mass in Tons:                   3.94
Cost in MCr.:                   .20
Rate of Fire Bonus:             +9


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <50.f92cdfb.2a82cde6@aol.com>

In a message dated 07/08/02 00:58:22 GMT Daylight Time, jtkwon@jtkgroup.com 
writes:


Don't forget - the outgoing commander has to do an inventory 
with the new commander, and the new commander gets to sign 
for the ship and all of the equipment in it.


Ohhh...the Vilani would love that bit.

Charles

I addressed some cheerful chit-chat at the man opposite but was rewarded with 
grunt. I tried the man next to me but he just looked at the gentleman I had 
tried first and said "Do you know what he's talking about?" At this point I 
realised I was getting out my depth but the Dean stepped in and saved me, "Oh 
don't worry about it" he said, "They're mathematicians - we never talk to 
them."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807153248.00a37b70@mail.buffnet.net>

The SL136 series laser uses 363,376 kilowatt second power storage unit, and 
is attached to a fusion power plant generating 24,225 kilowatts of power. 
Unusable in a streamlined turret, this laser is the upgraded SL90 with 
respect towards use in non-streamlined turrets. It boasts a 23% increase in 
penetration power over the SL90. Total volume used in turret is 490 cubic 
feet, leaving 10 cubic feet as empty space.
RoF 1/2 Damage Max Damage Acc Damage
range range
4/60 2 5 31 5d6 x 58(2)
Spaces Mass Cost RoF
in tons in MCr. bonus
.98 5.45 .2682 +6

ROF:                            4/60
Half Damage Range:              2
Max Damage Range:               5
Accuracy:                       31
Damage:                 5d6 x 58(2)
Spaces:                 .98
Mass in Tons:                   5.45
Cost in MCr.:                   .27
Rate of Fire Bonus:             +9


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:29:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:29:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807153547.00a32530@mail.buffnet.net>

Resent as the previous version of this I sent included the first edition 
data as opposed to second edition data (sorry)

The SL136 series laser uses 363,376 kilowatt second power storage unit, and 
is attached to a fusion power plant generating 24,225 kilowatts of power. 
Unusable in a streamlined turret, this laser is the upgraded SL90 with 
respect towards use in non-streamlined turrets. It boasts a 23% increase in 
penetration power over the SL90. Total volume used in turret is 490 cubic 
feet, leaving 10 cubic feet as empty space.


ROF:				4/60
Half Damage Range:		2
Max Damage Range:		5
Accuracy:			31
Damage:			5d6 x 58(2)
Spaces:			.98
Mass in Tons:			5.45
Cost in MCr.:			.27
Rate of Fire Bonus:		+9


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:29:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:29:30 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <20020807020627.6743406c80f7471790ae6758c061e780.in@keywest.kennett.net>
References: <20020807020627.6743406c80f7471790ae6758c061e780.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <3d51707a.2567266@post.demon.co.uk>

cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng) writes:

>Thanks.  Anybody can provide with how the Royal Navy does it?  Has the =
USN
>changed anything from the afore-explained procedure?=20

I always liked David Weber's change of command ceremonies in the Honor
Harrington books, but I don't know whether they're based on genuine
Napoleonic-era Royal Navy practice or just something DW made up...

(in brief, the new Captain is welcomed on board the ship as a visiting
senior officer, is escorted to the bridge, makes an all-hands
announcement in which (s)he reads aloud the written orders from the
Admiralty directing him/her "To proceed aboard Her Majesty's Starship
<Foo>, there to take upon yourself the duties and responsibilities of
commanding officer in the service of the Crown"; after which the new
Captain formally tells the previous (acting) commander "I assume
command".)

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807153712.00a315d0@mail.buffnet.net>

The SL23 is primarily a point defense laser. Imperial authorities have 
given CDI their coveted Excellence of Design award for this point defense 
laser. Also, the IMD has predicted that any civilian ship owner who puts in 
for a permit to install SL23's in their ship - will have an easier time of 
it. Mark Shuugaash, Sector head for the IMD of the Spinward Marches has 
informed all IMD departments that ships requesting SL23 permits are to be 
given preferential treatment with respect towards application processing 
time. After all, quoted Mark Shuugaash, how many would be pirates are going 
to use the low damaging power of the SL23 to good effect?
The SL23 uses a battery rated at 23,400 kilowatt seconds, and recharges its 
rapid fire laser by means of a 20,795 kilowatt fusion power plant. Unlike 
its faster firing cousin, the SL23a, this SL23 will fit into streamlined 
turrets. Excess space after installation in a Streamlined turret is 15 
cubic feet.


ROF:				20/60
Half Damage Range:		1
Max Damage Range:		2
Accuracy:			29
Damage:			5d6 x 24(2)
Spaces:			.77
Mass in Tons:			3.43
Cost in MCr.:			.17
Rate of Fire Bonus:		+12


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:34:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:34:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
Message-ID: <3D5175D5.D8DEC9AF@ameritech.net>

Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 09:10:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>

> David Shayne writes:
>
>> Standard densities. With Earth = 1. Doesn't look so horibly wrong 
>> now does it? 
>
> Ok, that's not as bad.  

Let me take a moment here to appologize for the tone of theat last post.
I really should have performed a snarkectomy on it before I sent it out.

Sorry,

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807154015.00a37d60@mail.buffnet.net>

Like the SL23, the SL23a is designed as a point defense system. Because 
this system can only be used in unstreamlined turrets, CDI has been able to 
increase its firepower abilities from that of 1 shot per minute, to 1 shot 
per 40 seconds. Consequently, this laser is better suited for tackling the 
tough job of point defense against incoming missiles than its cousin, the 
SL23.
The SL23a still uses the 62,384 kilowatt second battery that the SL23 uses, 
but instead, uses a 31,192 kilowatt fusion power plant.


ROF:				1.33
Half Damage Range:		1
Max Damage Range:		2
Accuracy:			29
Damage:			5d6 x 24(2)
Spaces:			1
Mass in Tons:			4.47
Cost in MCr.:			.23
Rate of Fire Bonus:		+13


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 14:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Aug  7 13:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
References: <3D5174AB.19191.F0AB707@localhost> <m365ymsna4.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> <20020807171434.GA26680@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <3D517EAA.9080504@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Mikko V.I. Parviainen wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 09:26:27AM -0600, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> 
>>>At the current rates of extinction, somewhere between every six
>>>months and two years (depending on which biologist you listen to) we
>>>destroy one undiscovered medicine.
>>
>>We destroy one natural source of an undiscovered medicine, perhaps.
>>But we can synthesise just about anything these days.  
> 
> 
> Well, yes, but wouldn't it be a bit easier to synthesise a compound if
> you had it beforehand, instead of trying to duplicate the effects from
> an old tale?
> 

Also, anyone who thinks 'we can synthesize just about anything these 
days' is not a chemist or biochemist.

Trsut me, some of the natural compounds we're finding that have 
medicinal qualities are utter whirling b*tches to synthesize in any 
quantity, *let alone* synthesize on industrial scales economically.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 14:11:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Aug  7 13:11:28 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
References: <ML-2.3.1028741494.6212.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3D517A60.60801@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Mikko V.I. Parviainen writes:
> 
>>Well, yes, but wouldn't it be a bit easier to synthesise a compound if
>>you had it beforehand, instead of trying to duplicate the effects from
>>an old tale?
> 
> 
> Not exactly the right question.  The question is whether it's more efficient to
> chase down old wives' tales, or to ignore the old wives' tales and attempt to
> synthesize drugs based on prior understanding of what they ought to do.
> 
> The herbal movement notwithstanding, most pharmaceutical companies don't seem
> to find chasing down old wives' tales, particularly extremely obscure old
> wives' tales, to be really worth doing.


ROFL!!!! We have one researcher here at the College who has a 
multimillion dollar grant, with support from NIH and a bunch of 
Pharmaceutical companies looking into the medicinal properties of arid 
lands plants.

The pharmaceutical companies are funding this research to the tunes of 
*billions* of dollars a year.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs





From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 14:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Wed Aug  7 13:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <001a01c23e54$52a53950$0b01a8c0@duck>

On Behalf Of Hal
> Hello Folks,
>    This is in response to Tim's comments regarding point defense lasers.
I
> have a few of them in all, so this is just one of many incoming
> designs.  All of them are TL 12 designs for use with GURPS
> TRAVELLER.  Please note that I was not happy with the "Logic" of having
> turret weapons who required that their "energy power plant be part of the
> main shipboard power plant.  Thus, *ALL* lasers designed by CGI include
> their own power generators.

I hope you don't mind, but this brings up a couple of questions from a GT
neophyte.  Please understand that I only have GT, not VE2 or GS3.

- What are "streamlined" and "unstreamlines" turrets?  In the GT rules
  there are just "turrets".  What is the difference?

- Do you have any TL 10 designs.  I am curious as the the relative use
  of such weapons.

Finally, I also have an unrelated questions I hope you could answer:

- Are standard GT TL10 lasers 250MJ or 360MJ?  The rules are contradictory
  on the issue.

Thanks.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 14:55:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Wed Aug  7 13:55:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re: army usage
In-Reply-To: <20020807002817.99096.qmail@web20417.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0208072247420.363897-100000@svati>

On Tue, 6 Aug 2002, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:

>Tommy, you should do some research, too.  The Taliban was composed
>primarily of Pakistani and Saudi volunteers who called themselves
>"students" (of Islam).  Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, with the knowledge
>if not the support of the United States government, formed and
>trained the Taliban and sent them to end the civil war in
>Afghanistan, which they did.  The peace they imposed was in many ways
>worse than the war.

This is true and not contrary to what I said at all. I just pointed out
that the Taliban was almost universially hated and feared inside of
Afghanistan, and that they had control over almost all of the land, except
for the small area controled by the NA. And the NA was loosing quickly.

My point was like yours that the Americans did a good job by ousting the
Taliban and that the Northern Alliance didn't have to be bribed to let
the US help them. They were in enough trouble to cheer loudly when the
US did help.

No controversy here.

ObTrav: How does the citizens of a world view interference into their
local affairs by the Imperium? I guess that it is takes a wide range
of sentiments, but that most worlds really want to settle their issues
wiyhout the IMperium medeling. Even if it means a nuclear war.

Tommy Grav
-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 14:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dominic Mooney)
Date: Wed Aug  7 13:57:03 2002
Subject: BITS - Sneak Preview was  RE: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <AC8B99B8-AA47-11D6-8866-0003930B3ACE@cybergoths.u-net.com>

> "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

> At 9:43 AM -0700 8/6/02, DeGraff, Jesse wrote:
> What about artists?  ;)
> Jesse
> Do you have any experience?  :-)


<Delurk>

If you're interested, look at Jesse's work at

http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/ghalalk_and_pf_sloan.
htm

which shows some of the models he's been building for the forthcoming BITS 
starship miniatures combat game 'Power Projection'.

By forthcoming, we are hoping for the lite rules (escorts and destroyers - 
non capital ships) at GenCon UK and the full rules before Christmas.

Dom
BITS Webmaster...

"Power Projection - 'It's all about going to other people's planets and 
making *them* do what *we* want".

--------dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia,
there's still the notion that the future is
something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." Niven/Pournelle/Flynn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 15:20:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Aug  7 14:20:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Interference
Message-ID: <200208072119.MGZ05733@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

In the Broadsword adventure, there seems to be little enough 
Imperial interference on Garda-Vilis, but more than enough 
Sword World and Zhodani interefence.

Then again, this is a border area, and a backwater border 
area at that.

The local freedom fighters seem to be pro-Imperial - the 
Tanoose Freedom League has killed Ine Givar who tried to 
recruit them.  It's almost as if the people on Garda-Vilis 
think they would get a better shake with direct Imperial 
interference than by having Vilis rule them from afar.

Then again, the Imperium doesn't seem to be in the game of 
nation building, or freedom fighting, or dispensing democracy 
at the drop of a hat.  They seem to be more interested in 
maintaining a Naval Base at Frenzie.

Gee, are there any parallels between Frenzie and Diego Garcia?
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 15:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Aug  7 14:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020807102826.009e6ec0@mindspring.com>
References: <3D5050EB.9050601@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3D523A3D.13247.2FE3DA@localhost>

On 7 Aug 2002 at 10:30, Douglas Berry wrote:

> I've always seen the Zhodani motivation in the Frontier Wars as keeping the 
> Imperium at bay.  The 1st and 2nd wars removed the Imperium  from 
> previously settled Zhodani territories and established a buffer zone.  The 
> 3 - 5 felt more like disruptive actions, designed to keep the Marches 
> scared and on the defensive.

I'm certain that this is the case, as given the poor Imperial showing 
up until the FFW if the Zho's had really wanted to come in and take the 
SM they'd probably not have been stopped short of Corridor.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 15:48:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 14:48:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <001a01c23e54$52a53950$0b01a8c0@duck>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807172615.02726970@mail.buffnet.net>

Hello Mike,


>I hope you don't mind, but this brings up a couple of questions from a GT
>neophyte.  Please understand that I only have GT, not VE2 or GS3.
>
>- What are "streamlined" and "unstreamlines" turrets?  In the GT rules
>   there are just "turrets".  What is the difference?

At the time I wrote all this, GURPS TRAVELLER was just recently released 
and there was nothing else printed.  I had a few issues with what had been 
written overall.  Since then, I've resolved those issues with respect 
towards streamlined and un-streamlined vessels.  In short?  Ignore the 
concept of Streamlined versus Un-streamlined turrets ;)



>- Do you have any TL 10 designs.  I am curious as the the relative use
>   of such weapons.

I had not worked on any TL10 designs.  At the time, I had intended to, but 
I never got around to it.


>Finally, I also have an unrelated questions I hope you could answer:
>
>- Are standard GT TL10 lasers 250MJ or 360MJ?  The rules are contradictory
>   on the issue.

Interesting ;)

I will have to take the time out and try to figure out which it is supposed 
to be.  As it stands now, I have to take the time to figure out how I set 
up my BEAM WEAPONS TL12 spread sheet so I can reproduce all the date I 
created for my web site lo those many years back.  When did Traveller first 
come out in GURPS anyhow, 1998?  '99?  Hmmmm.

For what it is worth?  I've noted that the rates of fire for lasers are 
limited by the fact the energy that goes into charging the "batteries" or 
capacitors are less than what they could be.  Someone who rerouts ship's 
manuever drive energy towards lasers can increase the rate of fire to 
extremely high rates of fire.

                   Hal


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 16:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dooley, Ryan)
Date: Wed Aug  7 15:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Probably a FAQ, but...
Message-ID: <C0B11D0413A966428A8FAAED4B198CA46AC8BE@col-mailnode03.col.missouri.edu>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C23E4B.90149D70
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Howdy,

=20

I don't know if this has been discussed to death or not yet but since
I've not seen traffic on the topic as of late, anybody know the word on
T5?

=20

Cheers,

            Ryan


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	charset="us-ascii"
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<html>

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charset=3Dus-ascii">


<meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 10 (filtered)">

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<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Howdy,</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I don&#8217;t know if this has been discussed to =
death or
not yet but since I&#8217;ve not seen traffic on the topic as of late, =
anybody
know the word on T5?</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Cheers,</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp; Ryan</span></font></p>

</div>

</body>

</html>
=00
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 16:08:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug  7 15:08:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Spam Spam Spam Spam...
Message-ID: <11b.147a05c3.2a82e8cc@cs.com>

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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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In a message dated 8/7/02 3:53:47 AM Central Daylight Time, 
jenry023@student.liu.se writes:


> Come to think of it, most products that come from special places are not 
> considered luxuries there, but they probably are at other locations.
> 
> Groat Musk Perfume would be a nasty thing to hit the PCs with...  ;-)
> 
> * Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
> 

More like, "Groat Musk Perfume would be a nasty thing to suffer a container 
breach while in the PC's cargo hold..." Especially in a S-class Scout/Courier.

Simon Jester
-------------------
Vikings? There ain't no vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was 
burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway. That's 
our story and we're sticking to it.



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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 8/7/02 3:53:47 AM Central Daylight Time, jenry023@student.liu.se writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Come to think of it, most products that come from special places are not considered luxuries there, but they probably are at other locations.
<BR>
<BR>Groat Musk Perfume would be a nasty thing to hit the PCs with... &nbsp;;-)
<BR>
<BR>* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>More like, "Groat Musk Perfume would be a nasty thing to suffer a container breach while in the PC's cargo hold..." Especially in a S-class Scout/Courier.
<BR>
<BR>Simon Jester
<BR>-------------------
<BR>Vikings? There ain't no vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway. That's our story and we're sticking to it.
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 16:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Wed Aug  7 15:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807172615.02726970@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <001b01c23e5e$c9983a80$0b01a8c0@duck>

On Behalf Of Hal
> >- Do you have any TL 10 designs.  I am curious as the the relative use
> >   of such weapons.
>
> I had not worked on any TL10 designs.  At the time, I had intended to, but
> I never got around to it.

The reason I ask is that I have lately gotten into the kick of just ignoring
GTL12/TTL15 and seeing what I can get at "medium" TLs like GTL10/TTL12.  I
do wish there were GTL9 modules published somewhere.  I *really* want to be
able to make some GTL9 ships.

> >Finally, I also have an unrelated questions I hope you could answer:
> >
> >- Are standard GT TL10 lasers 250MJ or 360MJ?  The rules are
contradictory
> >   on the issue.
>
> Interesting ;)

>From what I can see (I own GT, BtC and AR1) GT 1e used 360MJ for TL10, but
it was changed to 250MJ in GT 2e.  Unfortunately all modules made pre-2e
(like AR1) still refer to 360MJ, and even some things in GT 2e still refer
to 360MJ.

I do admit I don't even know for sure that they made the change.  I am
just assuming it from the contradictory references.  That is why I was
asking about the TL10 lasers you played with.  Assuming I am correct, I
guess someone figured out that a 360MJ laser at TL10 ended up being too
big, so it was adjusted down.

Anyway, thanks for the answers.  I do appreciate it.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 16:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Aug  7 15:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <001b01c23e5e$c9983a80$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028758470.4086.ajackson@ping>

Mike West writes:
> I do admit I don't even know for sure that they made the change.  I am
> just assuming it from the contradictory references.

Mostly, the change is because it was determined that the 360MJ laser takes up
more than 500 cf.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 16:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Aug  7 15:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Probably a FAQ, but...
In-Reply-To: <C0B11D0413A966428A8FAAED4B198CA46AC8BE@col-mailnode03.col.missouri.edu>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028758541.2749.ajackson@ping>

Dooley, Ryan writes:
> 
> I don't know if this has been discussed to death or not yet but since
> I've not seen traffic on the topic as of late, anybody know the word on
> T5?

I don't think there's been official word, but I wouldn't hold your breath.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 16:17:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug  7 15:17:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
In-Reply-To: <20020807183944.5641.qmail@web10602.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020807183944.5641.qmail@web10602.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020808081638.A491@freeman.little-possums.net>

Daniel Burns wrote:
> "Would you believe... Our top psychics are manning our sensor grid
> right now, and can get a precognitive firing solution weeks or even
> years before the target shows up?" ;)

Of course I do.  That's just one of many ways in which the Consulate
protects its proles :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 16:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug  7 15:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807154015.00a37d60@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net> <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com> <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com> <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net> <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net> <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20020807154015.00a37d60@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020808082655.B491@freeman.little-possums.net>

Hal wrote:
> The SL23a still uses the 62,384 kilowatt second battery that the SL23 uses, 
> but instead, uses a 31,192 kilowatt fusion power plant.

Just a question; how do you get a RoF of 1.33 when the pwoer plant
takes 2 seconds to recharge the energy banks?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 16:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug  7 15:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807172615.02726970@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net> <001a01c23e54$52a53950$0b01a8c0@duck> <5.0.2.1.2.20020807172615.02726970@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020808085800.C491@freeman.little-possums.net>

Hal wrote:
> For what it is worth?  I've noted that the rates of fire for lasers are 
> limited by the fact the energy that goes into charging the "batteries" or 
> capacitors are less than what they could be.

This is a problem with all G:Traveller modular designs.  In normal
space, you can always use the power allocated in design to maintaining
the jump field.  This is at least 200 kW/dton.


>  Someone who rerouts ship's manuever drive energy towards lasers can
> increase the rate of fire to extremely high rates of fire.

If the average density of starships is about 4 tonnes per dton, then
each gee of thrust reduction diverts 400 kW/dton to other systems.
This will benefit a lightly-armed ship.  A heavily armed ship will
hardly notice, since such a ship already has a far higher power
requirement for weapons than for maneuver drives.

Now, diverting power from bay weapons or spinal mounts to turrets is
quite a different story.  That might be a good idea in a point-defense
situation.  It might raise the RoF by a factor of thirty in extreme
cases, for a +5 RoF bonus.  It's a pity that RoF doesn't actually do
much :/


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 17:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 16:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <20020808082655.B491@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807154015.00a37d60@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020807154015.00a37d60@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807191227.027257b0@mail.buffnet.net>

At 08:26 AM 08/08/2002 +1000, you wrote:
>Hal wrote:
> > The SL23a still uses the 62,384 kilowatt second battery that the SL23 
> uses,
> > but instead, uses a 31,192 kilowatt fusion power plant.
>
>Just a question; how do you get a RoF of 1.33 when the pwoer plant
>takes 2 seconds to recharge the energy banks?

I goofed - I read it wrong and was in a hurry to transscribe the 
information into email from my old HTML...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 17:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Aug  7 16:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <OFDEC7001F.B4AA8375-ON42256C0E.001D1133@ko.com>
References: <OFDEC7001F.B4AA8375-ON42256C0E.001D1133@ko.com>
Message-ID: <p04330109b977629d272b@[198.123.22.179]>

>Sufficiently advanced technology makes life on an airless
>rockball possible - why would such a species need to preserve
>its wildlife?

Well, if we assume that the airless rockball is totally self 
suficient (not just sufficient over a timescale of week or months) I 
see two reasons...

1) Economics, a natural ecosystem maintains itself (and hence is a 
lot cheaper).
2) Comfort, just because the rockball is livable, doesn't mean it 
produces everything people would want.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 19:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Aug  7 18:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] System Gen Help
In-Reply-To: <c9.261a11c4.2a7d38e2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20807.181758.5x2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> If a captured planet is in a gas giant's orbit though then it should
> become a moon or impact the gas giant eventually, or perhaps
> eventually be thrown out of orbit away from or towards the star.

It could wind up in a stable relationship with the GG. 

If it's sufficiently smaller than the GG (1/80th?) it could be stable
at one of the Trojan points.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 19:26:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Aug  7 18:26:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
In-Reply-To: <200208051642.JAA31293@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <20807.182739.9w7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>Lowest GG density = .1
>>Average GG density ~= .21
>>Highest GG density = .3
>
> Assuming that's g/cc, that's horribly wrong. Saturn has a density of 0.69
> and is probably near the low end of possible densities; all of the other
> gas giants have densities between 1 and 2.  A large gas giant, at 4x
> jupiter mass and about the same diameter, would be as dense as the earth.

Densities are likely in units such the Earth has a density of 1.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 19:44:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Aug  7 18:44:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Briefing Depicted Saudis as Enemies (washingtonpost.com)
In-Reply-To: <3D51CB90.53932375@minn.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020807204455.00a7f6f0@minn.net>


Found this article via the www.FrontPageMag.com website:

 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47913-2002Aug5.html

Obtrav: What if an allied state in the Vargr Extents acts against Imperial
interests?

(Hmmm...there's an idea for my serial space opera project...)


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 19:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Hamill)
Date: Wed Aug  7 18:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] GTS-the progrem
In-Reply-To: <20020807183403.21704.67892.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020808015159.46560.qmail@web21505.mail.yahoo.com>


> 
> Message: 1
> From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] GTS-the program
> Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 16:10:33 +0000
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> From: John Hamill <jwdh71@yahoo.com>
> 
>      "I have a chance to get a two-part
> GURPS:Traveller game together, 
> during a weekend mini-con at the local game store,
> and I really need a 
> couple of ships fast. Well, faster than I can do
> them by hand, anyway."
> 
> 
> Mr. Hamill,
> 
>      IIRC, the BITS website has a wonderful,
> massive, and free PDF download 
> chocked full of G:T ships.  Al TLs, all races, all
> functions too.  Why build 
> ships when someone else has done the work for you
> already?  :)
>      A free PDF reader can be downloaded at the
> Adobe webiste too.
>      Google should point you to both locations.
> 
> 
>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen

A great idea sir, but unfortunately just any old ships
won't do. See I'm running an old adventure from MT
days, in a non-canon universe, using GURPS: Traveller
(as that's what I have on hand, not wanting to get my
old LBB set out of storage and not having mt MT books
anymore. I need to redesign for G:T a 10,000 dton,
United States of America class frontier patrol
cruiser, the Republica Federal de Mexico, it's small
craft and fighters, as well as the Terran
Confederation Marines landers. As you can tell, it
will be an active duty adventure, and the specific
adventure will be mostly slated for ground combat,
however, there is some chance of space action, and I
want to be prepared for it. Thanks for the heads up
though, I will be looking for that at the nearest
opportunity.

Interestingly, this campaign came to mind when the
list was discussing rules changes. We used a few
(including the no-kill during char gen), but the
biggest one was to fiddle with the fuel for jumps.
When I started playing the original LBB's, many of my
fellow players were either ex-military, current
college students, or both. several of the motre
scientific ones complained about the extreme amounts
of fuel used for jump, and pointed out that the ship
would melt if it tried to fuse even a portion of that
amount before or during a jump. The GM at the time
agreed with him, and didn't like the fuel for jump
situation anyway (he was trying to simulate a universe
from a novel, and didn't use the OTU), so he simply
dispensed with fuel requirements for the jump drive.
All you had to do was have a power plant the same size
or larger than your jump drive, and thats all. It
definitely chaqnged the game from what it was designed
as, and made tactics for intersteller war completely
different than in the normal Traveller universe. OTOH,
you could actually see freighters, especially small
ones, begin to make a profit, even from regular cargo.
Others in the group made up new combat rules, both for
space and ground combat, and we used those instead. I
gamed with them for several years, but moved away
eventually. 
But I still messed around with the rules, and when I
had another group of victi...er, players, I started a
non-canon game with them. I set it in a future Terran
Confederation, sort of a ramped up UN in space, and
the best campaign we had was an active duty campaign,
aboard the above frontier patrol cruiser. I did use
jump fuel, but cut the requirement to a tenth of
canon. However I still designed ships the book way, so
your average ship, at least the military and scout
ships, had a 10 jump fuel reserve. So your type S
scout/courier could do 10 jump 2's before needing to
be refueled. Or for civilian vessels, they could carry
less fuel and add cargo space. It worked out well for
this campaign, since they were supposed to patrol the
frontier of the Confederation, and also protect and
aid any colonies in their area, it allowed for a much
greater range for their ship. It also allowed me to
effectively cut the PC's off from higher authority,
and made them responsible for whatever happened on
their watch. It was great watching them try to come up
with ways to explain their actions to command (in the
reports which I made them write up). A great campaign
it was.
So I'm going to try a simple one-shot (well, actually
a two part one-shot) to see if I can't get my local
group into our Great Game, we'll see how it goes.

John
jwdh71@yahoo.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 19:53:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mosaic Tapestry)
Date: Wed Aug  7 18:53:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Probably a FAQ, but...
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1028758541.2749.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <001001c23e7e$2acd8a70$2f7de40c@loki>

I'd enquire here:

http://www.travellerrpg.com/cgi-bin/Trav/CotI/Discuss/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb
=forum;f=11


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 22:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug  7 21:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] John Beats The Dead Horse of Imperial Rules Of War...
Message-ID: <OFB4C576D0.DD4913B9-ONCA256C0F.00177D95@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

John wrote:
>The player characters in any Traveller party would often fall 
>into the category of illegal combatant.  They aren't wearing 
>a uniform, they don't belong to an official army, and aren't 
>part of an officially responsible chain of command.  In a war 
>zone, if they were caught fighting an official military 
>force, and they surrendered, would they be considered 
>prisoners of war, or would they be shot out of hand after the 
>local Imperial Marine lieutenant heard his platoon sergeant's 
>report?

I believe that mercenaries, available and used in the standard way that 
Trav says they are used, would only be possible under the canonical "Rules 
of War" scheme. That is, with merc troops being recognised as legitimate 
forces, with repatriation bonds, etc. Exactly what David Drake writes 
about - I'm sure he must have cribbed a bit from Traveller.

In this situation, the PCs will be OK as long as they are recognised as 
being part of a legitimate merc unit. One of the fun things I forced my 
players to do was to apply for a company-sized merc licence...

Have a look under Tavonni Specialties ==> Soldiers of Fortune ==> Adifux Inc LIC Pty Ltd.  ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 22:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug  7 21:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: MT Vehicles
Message-ID: <OFC8A19485.1B58CE65-ONCA256C0F.001962BE@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Peter said:
>I'm in the process of detailing out the armed forces  of  Efate's
>Regular Army for a Landgrab.

Try browsing the Incredible Dean Files[TM]:
        http://www.solstation.com/core/dean_files_en.htm

Of the TL 13 entries, roughly 20 out of 50 are vehicles. Then you can grab 
some at lower TL's to fill in for the logistics & civvies.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 22:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Aug  7 21:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] John Beats The Dead Horse of Imperial Rules Of War...
In-Reply-To: <OFB4C576D0.DD4913B9-ONCA256C0F.00177D95@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020807235157.00a78ca0@minn.net>

At 02:27 PM 8/8/2002 +1000, david.d.jaques-watson wrote:

>I believe that mercenaries, available and used in the standard way that 
>Trav says they are used, would only be possible under the canonical "Rules 
>of War" scheme. That is, with merc troops being recognised as legitimate 
>forces, with repatriation bonds, etc. Exactly what David Drake writes 
>about - I'm sure he must have cribbed a bit from Traveller.

I wouldn't think so. If I recall correctly, Hammer's Slammers was
originally patched together from a series of shorter stories published in
ANALOG before the publication of the LBB's.

I should think that Drake's work was an influence on Book 4 and subsequent
works on mercenary ops in CT.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 23:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug  7 22:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Interference
Message-ID: <OF161D1D12.25FFD37E-ONCA256C0F.001C7739@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

John wrote:
>The local freedom fighters seem to be pro-Imperial - the 
>Tanoose Freedom League has killed Ine Givar who tried to 
>recruit them.  It's almost as if the people on Garda-Vilis 
>think they would get a better shake with direct Imperial 
>interference than by having Vilis rule them from afar.

FWIW, in my campaign I put the "Aces & Eights" scenario on G-V. Everything 
seems to fit:
        - if Vilis was originally populated by Sword Worlders, then hiring 
a S-W merc outfit is not out of the question;
        - Colonel Semyon (from A&E) leads a Sword Worlder merc unit - 
hmmm;
        - as John says, the rebels appear to be pro-Imperial;
        - the guy who hid the money is an ex-Imperial intel officer, 
currently supporting the "rebels", another hmmm.

2 + 2 = 5? Works for me!  ;-)  ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 00:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug  7 23:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] sound of rolling dice
Message-ID: <103.1984cd5e.2a8363c3@aol.com>

 >> Traveller Adventure: Comet Busters
 >> 
 >> For referees only.  If you intend to play this adventure, quit reading 
now 
 >> and direct your game referee to this page. 
 >
 >*sound of harddrive saving file*

Yes, but will there be the sound of rolling dice?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 01:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 00:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] army usage
Message-ID: <24.29a1836f.2a837238@aol.com>

 >>On the other hand, if the latest briefs are any indication and we launch 
any 
 >>military action against the house of Saud, then I think we're going to 
have 
 >>to occupy everything from Libya to Jakarta.  That _will_ require an army, 
and 
 >>I'm not sure we have one.
 >
 >I've been really busy at work recently but I wasn't aware that the US 
planned 
 >to invade Saudi Arabia, where, the last time I looked the House of Saud 
were 
 >in charge.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A50022-2002Aug6.html

 >Have things changed and has the US decided to after the single biggest 
source 
 >of  al-Qaida funding?

You mean americans filling up their SUV gas tanks?  A far tougher opponent 
than Saddam.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 01:19:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 00:19:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re: army usage
Message-ID: <cf.1b176136.2a8374ff@aol.com>

 >My point was like yours that the Americans did a good job by ousting the
 >Taliban and that the Northern Alliance didn't have to be bribed to let
 >the US help them.

I guess you misunderstood me.  I didn't say they had to be bribed to let the 
US help them.  I said that previously they were a bunch of looters and 
bandits, but that now they seemed to be too busy spending lots of aid money 
to bother with looting.  The bribe was to keep them from looting and to leave 
the common people alone, not to fight.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 01:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Thu Aug  8 00:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <3D517A60.60801@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3D52C5CC.22171.37657C@localhost>

On 7 Aug 2002, at 12:52, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Anthony Jackson wrote:

> > The herbal movement notwithstanding, most pharmaceutical companies don't
> > seem to find chasing down old wives' tales, particularly extremely obscure
> > old wives' tales, to be really worth doing.

> ROFL!!!! We have one researcher here at the College who has a 
> multimillion dollar grant, with support from NIH and a bunch of 
> Pharmaceutical companies looking into the medicinal properties of arid 
> lands plants.

Even ignoring the problems of synthesing a complex pharmaceutical, it 
really helps when you have a ready supply of complex chemicals on hand 
for testing.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 02:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 01:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <e4e645e4c45c.e4c45ce4e645@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
Date: Wednesday, August 7, 2002 2:57 am
Subject: Re: [TML] re:  Silly Question

> 
> Jeff D. Greenly" says
> <snip naval change of command>
> 
> Don't forget - the outgoing commander has to do an inventory 
> with the new commander, and the new commander gets to sign 
> for the ship and all of the equipment in it.

Anybody know if a _Nimitz_-class CVN has a National Stock Number? ;-)

As the incoming captain signs a one-page hand receipt for "Carrier, 
Aircraft, Nuclear-Powered, w/ancillary equipment"...then spends the next 
week signing all the annexes to the hand receipt....

ObTrav:  GT:GF mentions the 3I's equivalent to NSNs; do major warship 
classes have such numbers?

<<snip>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 02:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Aug  8 01:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Spam Spam Spam Spam...
In-Reply-To: <11b.147a05c3.2a82e8cc@cs.com>
References: <11b.147a05c3.2a82e8cc@cs.com>
Message-ID: <20020808101200.30a20555.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Wed, 07 Aug 2002 17:19:08 -0400 (EDT)
Damage169@cs.com wrote:

> More like, "Groat Musk Perfume would be a nasty thing to suffer a container 
> breach while in the PC's cargo hold..." Especially in a S-class Scout/Courier.

Yes, that would be a very nasty problem. Very subtle. How would the PCs notice that the cargo container had been damaged?

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 02:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Aug  8 01:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] sound of rolling dice
In-Reply-To: <103.1984cd5e.2a8363c3@aol.com>
References: <103.1984cd5e.2a8363c3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020808101438.23274eb3.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Thu, 08 Aug 2002 02:03:47 -0400 (EDT)
Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> Yes, but will there be the sound of rolling dice?

Tough question. Eventually yes, but at the moment I don't run any Traveller campaign (Rolemaster, Vampire, and Torg fill my RPG time). I am working on creating a Traveller campaign in which your adventure would fit nicely, though... will run it as soon as one of the other campaigns end...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 02:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 01:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
Message-ID: <e53186e50939.e50939e53186@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: JFZeigler@aol.com
Date: Wednesday, August 7, 2002 4:23 am
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Silly Question

> >Naval JAG: So what happened to the three 15" guns that used to in 
> the aft 
> >turret?
> >Captain: What 15" guns? This is a destroyer!
> >Naval JAG: The ones in the property book you signed for when you 
> took 
> >command. I'm afraid we can't allow you to retire until those are 
> paid for . 
> . 
> 
> Heh. Anyone remember the classic SF story "Allamagoosa?"

Was that the one with the ship's "offog"?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 03:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Thu Aug  8 02:27:03 2002
Subject: MT Vehicles (was: Re: [TML] Landgrab )
In-Reply-To: <000401c23e1b$85fa2ec0$5600a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPOEENEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

I have a number of MT vehicles and ships on my site, enough to fully equip a
TL13 marined regiment. Find them at www.users.bigpond.com/Skaran if you are
interested.

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Peter L.S. Trevor
Sent: Wednesday, 7 August 2002 7:16 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: MT Vehicles (was: Re: [TML] Landgrab )


Hyphen wrote:
> Peter asked:
> >Does anyone have (or know of) some software  or  spreadsheet  for
> >creating ground vehicles using MT rules?  I need to create  about
> >a dozen different military vehicles for my Efate landgrab.
>
> I created one, but it is a little basic and assumes you have the
> rules to plug the numbers in. (I did it years ago when I was
> worried about copyright and didn't know how to write a database
> spreadsheet. I still don't... ;-)
>
> I downloaded one from the 'net... Ships III from Ace and The Dog's
> website. However, I can't remember if it covers vehicles. It's a
> bit flaky and can crash unexpectedly, so save often!
>         http://www.ace-dog.com/downloads/downloads.htm
>
> Would pulling a couple of designs from 101 Vehicles help? What are
> you after, specifically?

Ships III doesn't do vehicles (according to its manual there  are
no ground vehicle drives, etc).  I have been trying  to  use  the
DOS program for vehicles from the same site but it seems to  have
major flaws (either that or my own math  is  way  off).  And  101
Vehicles doesn't have the range I need.

I'm in the process of detailing out the armed forces  of  Efate's
Regular Army for a Landgrab.  As this is  a  place  with  a  high
chance of merc adventures (think  high-tech  'Nam  in  Traveller)
this detail seems more important than with  other  Landgrabs.  So
far I have a need for an MBT, an air  defence  AFV,  3  different
artillery AFVs, assorted AFVs for EW/ND/command/commo, a recovery
vehicle, a field repair vehicle, a G-Carrier with 3 variants,  an
APC with 5 variants, and a fast recon vehicle (possibly a  Trasea
grav bike for the last).  Before I'm done  I'll  probably  double
this list, and thats before I get to the COACC  aerospace  units,
the rear  echelon  support  vehicles,  or  the  typical  civilian
vehicles used by the militia on both sides!  If  anyone's  got  a
fetish for designing lots of MT vehicles I could pre-release  the
unit org charts for a better understanding of the requirements.

Hmmm ... or how about a TL 13 military vehicle rodeo (MT only)?

Regards PLST




_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 03:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 02:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] animals
Message-ID: <17b.c949cc4.2a839732@aol.com>

Hummingbee

    Similar to a hummingbird though larger.  Small fast and agile.  
    Brilliant colors and plumage that varies from hummingbee 
    to hummingbee.  Omnivorous -- fairly strong beak with 
    serrated edges.  Eats fruit, insects, and small animals.  
    Large and strong stinger hidden in butt, coated with a 
    gel that causes excruciating pain (in humans).  Lone females are 
    highly curious, friendly, and sociable, and can even be 
    taught tricks.  Lone females begin laying and tending eggs in 
    extreamly well-hidden nests in early spring.  The 
    initial hummingbees that hatch, all female, behave 
    similarly to their mother.  The mother then begins 
      remaining in the nest and laying eggs at a prodigious 
    rate, becoming similar to a terran queen ant with the 
    hatchlings bringing her food as needed.  
    As the colony increases in size the hummingbees become 
    less friendly, gradually becoming aggressively 
    territorial towards anything which approaches their 
    nest.  Eventually they attack 
    anything which comes near.  Hummingbees attack initially by flying 
    butt first at their target with their stingers extended, with follow-up
      attacks using their beaks.
      In late summer the queen hummingbee produces a handful 
    of males, which leave the colony in search of other 
    colonies.  If a foreign male finds the colony he breeds 
    with all the hummingbees in the nest, who then leave to 
    form their own colonies next spring.  The queen and the 
    male then die.  If no males appear then the colony 
    remains until one arrives.

Flying Cougar

    Similar to a terran mountain lion.  Its bones and 
    claws are lighter and thinner, but its jaws are large 
    and strong.  It has flaps of skin between its legs very 
    similar to those of a terran flying squirrel.  Weighs 
    about 40 lbs.  The flying cougar hunts by lurking high 
    up in trees or cliffs, watching for small to medium-sized animals 
    on the ground.  If it sees one in range it will leap 
    off of its perch and silently glide down to land on the 
    animal, dispatching it with a quick bite to the back of 
    the head.  The flying cougar can also hunt conventionally on
      the ground if it has to, and it is reasonably 
    quiet quick and agile.  The flying cougar is not 
    particularly strong and does not like to attack 
    human-sized prey, but an upright human may appear small 
    to a carnivore observing him from above and may be 
    attacked.  If the flying cougar's initial bite does not 
    kill and the prey is too large for it then the flying 
    cougar will try to run away.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 05:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 04:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The power of the Nobility
Message-ID: <ea07c4ea0052.ea0052ea07c4@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Date: Friday, July 26, 2002 9:40 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: The power of the Nobility


<<snip discussion of weapons use inside airliners>> 
> 
> Just give everybody stun guns.  They are relatively safe, handy at 
> closequarters and fairly effective.

May I please use mine on the overly-chatty passenger in the seat next 
to me?

ObTrav:  Ever notice that the areas on a ship in which gunplay is most 
likely (e.g., the bridge, engineering) are also the most vulnerable to 
the effects of stray rounds? ;-)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 06:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Aug  8 05:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] vilis landgrab
References: <20020806013403.4631.56000.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <014c01c23edb$56263660$545d8690@computer>

> Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 20:43:34 -0400
> From: "John T. Kwon"
> >I also had some thoughts about the factions of the Ine Givar
> >that were present, and their relationships with each other,
> >the Tanoose Freedom League, and Solomani supremicist groups,
> >but I will spare you those.
> No, tell me more.

Well, briefly...

IMTU, the main Ine Givar faction on Vilis looks to the Sword Worlds for
inspiration and support. A smaller faction is vaguely aligned with the
"Regina faction" who are independent, but vaguely pro-Zhodani and pro-Vargr.

The Sword Worlds is a Solomani culture, as, ultimately, is that of Vilis, so
they tend to be a bit soft on Solomani supremacists. These leads to problems
between the Ine Givar factions, since the Regina faction is rigourously
pansophontist, while the Sword Worlder faction are very soft on the
question.

The differences rarely erupt into violence, but it is rather more likely
that the Regina faction are involved in periodic struggles to defend the
Tanoosian and Vilani minorities on Vilis from Solomani supremacist gangs.
They may therefore be on better terms with the TFL than the Sword Worlder
faction, but, on the other hand, the Sword Worlder group have more money,
and support from an interstellar government.

The Regina faction only rarely engages in terrorism, and prefers to organise
non-violently. The Sword Worlds faction ...umm... There may be other
factions, as well, at least some of which could best be described as "nutty
splinter groups", or even "agents provocateur".

I hope some of this is of use to you.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 06:55:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Aug  8 05:55:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Cleon V (was Arbellatra)
References: <20020806190006.21475.58141.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <014b01c23edb$5508df80$545d8690@computer>

I haven't had time to check my emails for a couple of days, so I am
responding to oldish stuff.

> From: Donald McKinney <dmckinne@amdocs.com>
> Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 13:12:03 -0500
> I also explained the elevation of Archduke Soegz as the replacement of
> one of Emperor Joseph's (the man who defeated Cleon V, I hope I'm
> remembering right) backers...

My take is that there was an "Antares faction" that installed Martin VI, a
member of the Lentuli family, as a puppet.

Inevitably, he started to get ideas of his own, and Gustus, one of the
leaders of the faction, knocked him off.

The role of the Antares fleet in the struggle between Arbellatra and Gustus
would be one of the factors that would be involved in my PBEM, if it
happens.

(Unfortunately, this doesn't look likely at the moment - I am hopefully
going to be moving next week, which will at least temporarily disrupt my
email access.)

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com








From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 06:55:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Aug  8 05:55:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
References: <20020806203610.24254.48308.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <014d01c23edb$56ded800$545d8690@computer>

> Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 11:35:10
> From: "Douglas E. Berry"
> She probably played a different game with the Vilani.  Promises of
> increased power in the court, culminating with her son's marriage to a
> Vilani noblewoman in 679.

She was long dead, and out of the picture in 679.

To assume the marriage to Antiama was a result of the policy of Arbellatra,
rather than of Zhakirov, is to reduce Zhakirov to a cypher, and take
Arbellatra cultism a bit too far for my tastes.

In fact, I tend to take the references on Solomani influence at court being
at its height during Arbellatra's reign at face value - Zhakirov's policy
was a break from that of his mother. (And nearly led to civil war, and
actually did lead to the Imperium effectively being split in two!)

> As she drew closer to Capital, I'm sure that pretender fleets defected en
> masse rather than face annihilation.

<mumble> I really wanna do my PBEM...

> She was only 28 when the war broke out, according to canon.  I'd prefer to
> push her date of birth back to 567, making her 48 at the beginning of the
> war.  This at least gives her the age to have had a fairly long career and
> been at least an experienced Captain or junior Admiral.  This would, IMHO,
> make her seizure of the fleets far more acceptable.  No one is going to
> listen to a pup of a Ltd. Commander.

Gratuitous nepotism goes a long way. I don't see any particular problem
about her taking over the family business, especially during the Civil War,
when warlordism was rife.

A good staff will cover a multitude of sins, especially if it includes
people like Soegz. In fact, Soegz may have been the real genius.

> Does this time line work for people?

No!  : )

I've got way too many prejudices of my own on this topic. I've spent too
much time on it to not have.

It's a shame I probably won't be able to run my PBEM (in the short term). I
think my interpretation would play really well, and be plausible enough for
most people. And Gustus would probably win, given that commanders of
Arbellatra's calibre are rare.  : )

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 07:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  8 06:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
Message-ID: <200208081259.MIF02312@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Alan Bradley" says
>To assume the marriage to Antiama was a result of the policy 
>of Arbellatra, rather than of Zhakirov, is to reduce 
>Zhakirov to a cypher, and take Arbellatra cultism a bit too 
>far for my tastes.


Well, we've got the director of Braveheart doing a movie 
about Arbellatra, and we're going to play fast and loose with 
who was born when, among other historical distortions...
________________
It is impossible to travel faster than 
the speed of light and certainly not 
desirable, as ones hat keeps falling 
off...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 07:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 06:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Cleon V (was Arbellatra)
Message-ID: <f277fff28158.f28158f277ff@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Alan Bradley <abradley1@bigpond.com>
Date: Thursday, August 8, 2002 2:58 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Cleon V (was Arbellatra)

> I haven't had time to check my emails for a couple of days, so I am
> responding to oldish stuff.
> 
> > From: Donald McKinney <dmckinne@amdocs.com>
> > Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 13:12:03 -0500
> > I also explained the elevation of Archduke Soegz as the 
> replacement of
> > one of Emperor Joseph's (the man who defeated Cleon V, I hope I'm
> > remembering right) backers...
> 
> My take is that there was an "Antares faction" that installed 
> Martin VI, a
> member of the Lentuli family, as a puppet.
> 
> Inevitably, he started to get ideas of his own, and Gustus, one of the
> leaders of the faction, knocked him off.
> 
> The role of the Antares fleet in the struggle between Arbellatra 
> and Gustus
> would be one of the factors that would be involved in my PBEM, if it
> happens.

As an aside, the AuricTech Shipyards writeup in _101 Corporations_ 
mentions that AuricTech backed an unsuccessful pretender to the Iridium 
Throne during the Civil Wars (this led to the "donation" [read: 
confiscation] of most AuricTech stock, putting that stock in Imperial 
hands until it was sold to LSP).  At the time, AuricTech was 
headquartered on Sylea (or was it Capital by then?).

Can anyone suggest who such a pretender might have been?

<<snip>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 08:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 07:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Merging WTH & PE
Message-ID: <f3dd78f3fc11.f3fc11f3dd78@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Long <AndrewGLong@yahoo.com>
Date: Monday, July 8, 2002 4:20 pm
Subject: [TML] Merging WTH & PE

> I've been reading World Tamer's Handbook and Pocket Empires the 
> last week or
> so, and think it might be possible to massage them sufficiently to 
> make WTH
> feed into PE. However, I thought I'd make sure I wasn't re-
> inventing the
> wheel, and wondered if anyone else had taken a stab at it, and was 
> preparedto share their thoughts?
> 
> regards, Andy
> 
> PS - any spreadsheets around for PE or WTH?

I'm currently working on a semi-automated PE spreadsheet for 
calculating GWPs and government revenues.  As of right now, it does the 
calculations, but the user has to manually input the values.  
Eventually, I'll have tables so that the spreadsheet can automatically 
look up values based on government type et cetera, but the spreadsheet 
is right now good enough for my needs.

Any suggestions for other functions to be added as time and energy 
permit?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 09:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff D. Greenly)
Date: Thu Aug  8 08:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] I won the lottery!
Message-ID: <sd5254a9.055@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>

And now, from the I can't believe this actually happened to me files...

My SO and I were out shopping and running errands last night after
work. On the way home, she noticed that there were signs for a yard sale
to begin this morning and extend through Saturday. Never ones to pass up
good deals or good junk, we decided that if there was anyone/anything
out there this morning as we were on our way to work, we'd stop and take
a quick look...

Well, the sponsors of this particular sale were setting out their stuff
as we came up this morning, and my eye was immediately drawn to several
boxes of books that they were beginning to unpack. There were a LOT of
old science fiction paperbacks, and I started rummaging through them,
picking out a few that I wanted to buy. Out of the corner of my eye, I
noticed a familiar cover design as a box was opened, one that was black
with a red stripe! I turned to look into the box, and lo! a fairly
complete Classic Traveller collection!!!! The whole box was full of
LBB's, box sets, box games, and a copy of 5FW! I asked why these were
being sold, and the lady explained that her son was grown and in the
service and had said that he didn't want any of this stuff any more. I
asked her what she would take for the whole box, and she looked at me
with surprise, then said, "Well, how about 20 bucks?" 

As soon as I've done an inventory, I'll post a list of what's available
to sell and trade...


Jeff


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 09:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Aug  8 08:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT but soooo like a PC....
Message-ID: <3D528D4E.6010208@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

http://www.comics.com/creators/speedbump/archive/images/speedbump2002228570801.gif


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 09:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Thu Aug  8 08:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT but soooo like a PC....
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F160D@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

LOL!  Cute one :)
Jesse

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bruce Johnson [mailto:johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu]
> Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 8:25 AM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] OT but soooo like a PC....
> 
> 
> http://www.comics.com/creators/speedbump/archive/images/speedb
> ump2002228570801.gif
> 
> 
> -- 
> Bruce Johnson
> University of Arizona
> College of Pharmacy
> Information Technology Group
> 
> Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 10:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Thu Aug  8 09:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How many Xboats...
Message-ID: <3D529971.86914BB@mail.cswnet.com>

...does it take to replace a light bulb?

But Seriously...

How many Xboats/Xboat tenders does one need to maintain a single
Xboat Route?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 10:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  8 09:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How many Xboats...
Message-ID: <200208081636.MIN00707@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Roseberry asks
>How many Xboats/Xboat tenders does one need to maintain a 
>single Xboat Route?

I want to know how often X-boats leave and arrive.  If the 
boats leave on the hour (assuming a 24 hour clock), and the 
planet has a route to two other systems, then there are at 
least 48 x-boats (there should be spares, to allow for 
maintenance rotation).  Then, how many tenders do you need to 
handle two arrivals and two departures per hour?  And do we 
assume that an x-boat has to be chased down in order to get 
its messages?  I've always assumed that 99 percent of 
messages are electronic, and laser communication between an x-
boat and its tender is the form of transmission.  So, a 
tender only has to be within 1 light hour of an arriving x-
boat in order to receive messages and 1 light hour of the 
departing x-boat (for messages relayed onwards).

I'm not sure if some systems would want to have an x-boat on 
the half-hour, or more often.
________________
It is impossible to travel faster than 
the speed of light and certainly not 
desirable, as ones hat keeps falling 
off...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 10:51:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christian K)
Date: Thu Aug  8 09:51:04 2002
Subject: [TML] How many Xboats...
References: <200208081636.MIN00707@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <000f01c23efb$af484e20$0664a8c0@bigdarkone>

<snip>
>I've always assumed that 99 percent of
> messages are electronic, and laser communication between an x-
> boat and its tender is the form of transmission.  So, a
> tender only has to be within 1 light hour of an arriving x-
> boat in order to receive messages and 1 light hour of the
> departing x-boat (for messages relayed onwards).
<snip>

An XBoat per hour is darn much if you ask me considering the time of roughly
one week between jumps an hour is nothing why hurry where there is no need ?
I would asume 2 or 3 boats a day is more realistic besides the fact that at
last under GT rules travel time is not fixed it ranges between 6 and 7days
48mins.

just my two cents

Chris



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 10:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  8 09:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT but soooo like a PC....
In-Reply-To: <3D528D4E.6010208@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020808092952.009feec0@mindspring.com>

At 08:25 AM 8/8/02 -0700, you wrote:
>http://www.comics.com/creators/speedbump/archive/images/speedbump2002228570801.gif

Cute.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.
gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Author of GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces
Geek Code: tc tm tn- t4-- tg++$ ru ge+ 3i+@ c+
            jt- au pi he+ as+ so-                           



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 10:52:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  8 09:52:26 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <e4e645e4c45c.e4c45ce4e645@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020808093155.009fdec0@mindspring.com>

At 11:08 AM 8/8/02 +0300, you wrote:

> > Don't forget - the outgoing commander has to do an inventory
> > with the new commander, and the new commander gets to sign
> > for the ship and all of the equipment in it.
>
>Anybody know if a _Nimitz_-class CVN has a National Stock Number? ;-)

Since each one is manufactured individually, I doubt it.  But the F-14D 
does.  As does the M1-A1 MBT.  I spent some time helping out in the supply 
room, where I learned how to steal someone blind while staying inside the 
rules.  I also found a NSN number for a nuclear reactor.

>ObTrav:  GT:GF mentions the 3I's equivalent to NSNs; do major warship
>classes have such numbers?

Imperial vessels seem to be much more standardized when compared to the US 
Navy, so perhaps they issued as a unit.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 10:52:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  8 09:52:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D5C@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020808093629.009ed970@mindspring.com>

At 03:11 PM 8/7/02 -0400, you wrote:

>Great story from Vietnam. As usual can't remember the source:
>
>A local village mayor was known to be a VC supporter, but no one could prove
>it or do anything about it.
>One day some American intelligence types, after a firefight, threw some
>recovered VC bodies onto a jeep and drove into the village. They drove up to
>the mayor's house.
>Now, you have to picture this. The VC bodies are in full view of everyone in
>the village.
>As far as I know, the mayor did not speak English, and the Americans did not
>speak Vietnamese.
>The Americans smiled, clapped the horrified mayor on the back, and unloaded
>gifts of food, a radio, bundles of cash, etcetera, and drove off.
>Three guesses on how long the mayor lived after that?

That's a trick sometimes used by the police to turn an informant.  Arrest a 
bunch of people at a crack house.  Tell your target that he's going to be 
let go without charges, right in front of all the other detainees.  The 
target usually panics, and will do anything not to be treated differently.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 11:13:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Aug  8 10:13:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Spam Spam Spam Spam...
References: <11b.147a05c3.2a82e8cc@cs.com> <20020808101200.30a20555.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <3D52A656.4040309@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Jens Rydholm wrote:
> On Wed, 07 Aug 2002 17:19:08 -0400 (EDT)
> Damage169@cs.com wrote:
> 
> 
>>More like, "Groat Musk Perfume would be a nasty thing to suffer a container 
>>breach while in the PC's cargo hold..." Especially in a S-class Scout/Courier.
> 
> 
> Yes, that would be a very nasty problem. Very subtle. How would the PCs notice that the cargo container had been damaged?

Scout 1:"Sven...you smell that??!!"
Scout 2:"Yah, Joe...it smells *nice* in here!"
S1, S2 (simultaneously) "Oh sh*t!!!" <dive for vaccsuits)



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 11:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  8 10:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <20020808172611.81955.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>

>Great story from Vietnam. As usual can't remember the source:
>
>A local village mayor was known to be a VC supporter, but no one 
>could prove it or do anything about it.

That's disinformation at its best.  I've read the story, but I can't
remember where.  Maybe it's in Dispatches by Michael (?) Herr.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 11:35:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  8 10:35:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re: army usage
Message-ID: <20020808173458.40698.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>

>This is true and not contrary to what I said at all. 

It only contradicts your statement that the Taliban was composed
primarily of members of a tribe in southwestern Afghanistan.  As
someone else pointed out, neither of us were precisely correct nor
completely wrong.

>ObTrav: How does the citizens of a world view interference into
their
>local affairs by the Imperium? I guess that it is takes a wide range
>of sentiments, but that most worlds really want to settle their 
>issues wiyhout the IMperium medeling. Even if it means a nuclear
war.

In my Traveller universe, most worlds prefer to do everything
themselves, or in cooperation with their neighbors, without any
Imperial interference or "assistance" -- except when they really need
it, like when a foreign power invades.  Sometimes worlds will seek
Imperial assistance in mediating a conflict to avoid war, but not
always.  This is one of the reasons the Imperium tries to keep
weapons of mass destruction out of the hands of its member states, or
at least to keep such weapons tied to defense of the system from
foreign powers.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 11:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  8 10:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  vilis landgrab
Message-ID: <20020808175404.91566.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com>

>These leads to problems between the Ine Givar factions, since the
>Regina faction is rigourously pansophontist, while the Sword Worlder
>faction are very soft on the question.

Only the Solidariti splinter group is "rigourously pansophontist." 
The Credo Front supports a pansophontist platform, but does not
become distracted by what are currently minor doctrinal issues. 
"When the agents of the oppressors start shooting, your first thought
must be to shoot back, not whether you hold the gun in your right
hand or your left."*

>The Regina faction only rarely engages in terrorism, and prefers to 
>organise non-violently. 

Riiiight.  This must have been written by a Solidariti member; they
are masters of keeping a straight face.

--Subcommander Cosram, Credo Front of the Ine Givar Movement

*Black Book of Quotations of Zid Rachele 2:66

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 12:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bernie McGeehan)
Date: Thu Aug  8 11:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] 100 ton scout ship?
In-Reply-To: <berka_3d4644bb22764@webmail.berka.com>
Message-ID: <20020808184852.12064.qmail@web13403.mail.yahoo.com>

I found this while flipping through the pages of
Space.com....Vilani contact teams in Illinois?
Hmmmmm...
<a href= "http://www.space.com/php/multimedia/imagedisplay/img_display.php?pic=h_black_trihigh_02,0.jpg&cap=Estimated%20to%20be%20600%20feet%20long%20and%20300%20feet%20wide,%20with%20a%20height%20of%2040%20feet,%20the%20Black%20Triangle%20could%20weigh%20as%20much%20as%20100%20tons.%20%20Courtesy%20of%20National%20Institute%20for%20Discovery%20Science%20(NIDS)">http://www.space.com/php/multimedia/imagedisplay/img_display.php?pic=h_black_trihigh_02,0.jpg&cap=Estimated%20to%20be%20600%20feet%20long%20and%20300%20feet%20wide,%20with%20a%20height%20of%2040%20feet,%20the%20Black%20Triangle%20could%20weigh%20as%20much%20as%20100%20tons.%20%20Courtesy%20of%20National%20Institute%20for%20Discovery%20Science%20(NIDS)</a>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 12:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  8 11:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <200208081849.MIR02148@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry says
>I also found a NSN number for a nuclear reactor.

Now all you need is your own jump drive.
________________
It is impossible to travel faster than 
the speed of light and certainly not 
desirable, as ones hat keeps falling 
off...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 13:27:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Thu Aug  8 12:27:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial taxes
In-Reply-To: <20020803223629.15105.10842.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208082116470.9347-100000@ask.diku.dk>

David P. Summers writes:
>At 12:30 AM -0400 8/3/02, hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>>In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head tax" or does it charge
>>an income tax on its citizens for its Imperial Budget requirements?  In
>>short, if the Imperial government taxes 10% of a Gross Planetary Product,
>>then it would in essence be an income tax.  If it charges a flat 500 CR
>>per person on a planet, then it is a head tax.  Which is it?

According to _Striker_, the Imperium charges each world (or in the case
of balkanized worlds, each nation) a percentage of its total military
budget (These budgets, in turn, are based on GWPs, but this may be a
simplification for gaming purposes). It does not say how this sum is
collected. I assume that the Imperium gets a check from each government.

>>And I find it an interesting thought here.  If the Imperium charges say,
>>3% of a planet's gross planetary product for its military taxes - this ta=
x
>>is on top of the local ruler's/government's tax.  How much in the way of
>>taxes can a population take before its economy begins to stagnate?

Again according to _Striker_ total military budgets ranges from 1-15% of
GWP, 1% being after a long period of peace and 15% being when actually at
war.=A0Average for the Imperium is 3%. Real world examples show that
countries can manage 8-9% more or less indefinitely and more than 15% for
a while (although this tends to put a severe strain on the economy).

>My impression is that imperial taxes are very indirect (they collect
>money from the member states.  The only direct taxes are the fees
>they collect at starports?

That seems to be the case. It is unclear how much, if anything, the
Imperium collects for expenses other than military ones (and whether or
not the Scouts come out of the military budget or not). I think it quite
possible that the Emperor's Share of all interstellar companies is enough
to pay for the Imperial bureaucracy.


Hans



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 14:19:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  8 13:19:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Lawyers should look into this...
Message-ID: <200208082017.MIT04892@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I was reading the LA Times, and I thought I was reading Book 
4.

"They envision super soldiers, arriving silently by stealth 
helicopter,"

ok, a grav vehicle full of commandos...

"wearing temperature-controlled suits that can repel chemical 
and biological agents and make an individual nearly invisible 
by suppressing infrared and other telltale signatures, 
including body odor."

ok, combat environment suit with chameleon mod...

"They envision silent guns"

ok, a gauss rifle

"and lightweight, blast-intensive explosives, futuristic 
arsenals of dazzling lasers and high-power microwave and 
acoustic weapons."

hmm...  And your parents may have told you that none of that 
science fiction roleplaying game you and your friends were 
playing in the basement would ever come to pass...
________________
It is impossible to travel faster than 
the speed of light and certainly not 
desirable, as ones hat keeps falling 
off...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 14:23:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Aug  8 13:23:05 2002
Subject: [TML] 100 ton scout ship?
In-Reply-To: <20020808184852.12064.qmail@web13403.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <berka_3d4644bb22764@webmail.berka.com>
 <20020808184852.12064.qmail@web13403.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020808222246.2f21bbe3.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Thu, 08 Aug 2002 11:48:52 -0700 (PDT)
Bernie McGeehan <einreb62@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I found this while flipping through the pages of
> Space.com....Vilani contact teams in Illinois?

Is there any way to find the article to which the picture belongs? The "Return to story" link is history based (and thus doesn't work).

Meanwhile, I played around a bit with the URL. Try this one instead.

http://www.space.com/php/multimedia/imagedisplay/img_display.php?pic=h_black_trihigh_02,0.jpg&cap=All%20your%20base%20are%20belong%20to%20us

Note to self: Don't make web pages that have this bug/feature.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 15:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Thu Aug  8 14:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <02080817101100.00601@linux>

> > 	How many dinky airless rockballs with large populations do the
> > world generation rules permit?
>
> What does that matter?  They obviously don't need trade for survival.
> It's not like they'll starve if you isolate them.
>
>
	I know that they won't starve. Out of curiosity, I decided to work out what 
might happen though. 
My assumptions were : A100999-F  3 gg's     1 belt       hi va na   f5VI
			all 2d6=7 to be average and show possible outcomes for 1d6
			population mod=5

	First I tried Hard Times without imposing any war damage and only cutting 
trade.  It predicted a 33% chance of the Class a starport dropping to b, 
followed by a 2 to 5 point drop in tech level. This is caused presumably by 
the abandonment of the economy by the megacorps and other trade. This would 
cause a big recession forcing the government to increase law level by 3 to 5 
points in order to control rioting, civil unrest, etc. By the fifth year, 
things level out again, but there is a chance that a coup, or revolution 
takes place ( gov changes to feudal technocracy, martial law, or oligarchy).
	Then I tried  Pocket Empires. Everything is fine except that net per capita 
income seems awfully low. If that represents the middle class, then the poor 
will be starving or in the military or on welfare.
	Finally, I tried world tamer's handbook, though not a full sim. 
Food production is not a problem at tech 15, however even at t15, the surface 
area required to grow food is much greater than exists on the surface of the 
rockball without even considering area for housing or industry or materials 
production. IT would take a tech 15 arcology 25000 km^2 just to house 
everyone. As all hydroponics would be underground, there would also be huge 
power requirements just to grow the food. Again, wealth distribution would be 
the deciding factor as to who starved and who ate well.
	So , no, the dinky rockballs don't need outside trade. Yes, it could really 
suck to live on one though. The system must really be bad to force the choice 
of settling the entire population of the earth on a planetoid half the 
diameter of the moon. 
	hmmm. as a rpg setting, it could be fun. endless corridors and caverns 
during a bloody revolution? anyone for a game of doom?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 15:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Kerby)
Date: Thu Aug  8 14:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] I won the lottery!
In-Reply-To: <sd5254a9.055@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
Message-ID: <000901c23f22$46a658e0$44cbb3cf@yourg4lzvxou0c>

Its people like you that cause unrest... or salivating at the mouth in
anticipation of lists...

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Jeff D. Greenly
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 10:23 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] I won the lottery!

And now, from the I can't believe this actually happened to me files...

My SO and I were out shopping and running errands last night after
work. On the way home, she noticed that there were signs for a yard sale
to begin this morning and extend through Saturday. Never ones to pass up
good deals or good junk, we decided that if there was anyone/anything
out there this morning as we were on our way to work, we'd stop and take
a quick look...

Well, the sponsors of this particular sale were setting out their stuff
as we came up this morning, and my eye was immediately drawn to several
boxes of books that they were beginning to unpack. There were a LOT of
old science fiction paperbacks, and I started rummaging through them,
picking out a few that I wanted to buy. Out of the corner of my eye, I
noticed a familiar cover design as a box was opened, one that was black
with a red stripe! I turned to look into the box, and lo! a fairly
complete Classic Traveller collection!!!! The whole box was full of
LBB's, box sets, box games, and a copy of 5FW! I asked why these were
being sold, and the lady explained that her son was grown and in the
service and had said that he didn't want any of this stuff any more. I
asked her what she would take for the whole box, and she looked at me
with surprise, then said, "Well, how about 20 bucks?" 

As soon as I've done an inventory, I'll post a list of what's available
to sell and trade...


Jeff

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 15:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thing)
Date: Thu Aug  8 14:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] 100 ton scout ship?
References: <berka_3d4644bb22764@webmail.berka.com><20020808184852.12064.qmail@web13403.mail.yahoo.com> <20020808222246.2f21bbe3.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <001d01c23f23$20c6cd20$0100a8c0@pentacle>

On Thursday, August 08, 2002 1:22 PM
Jens Rydholm said,

> Is there any way to find the article to which the picture belongs? The
"Return to story" link is history based (and thus doesn't work).
>
> Meanwhile, I played around a bit with the URL. Try this one instead.
>
>
http://www.space.com/php/multimedia/imagedisplay/img_display.php?pic=h_black
_trihigh_02,0.jpg&cap=All%20your%20base%20are%20belong%20to20us

I believe this is the article in question.

http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/black_triangle_020805.htm
l

G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
Grand Master of the Electron Flow
Minion to SheChemist and GothBunny
==========================
"I have taken all knowledge to be my province." -Francis Bacon


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 15:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Aug  8 14:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  vilis landgrab
References: <20020808190005.17449.17738.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c23f25$6fcf6d80$f1b18b90@computer>

> From: "Glenn M. Goffin" 
> --Subcommander Cosram, Credo Front of the Ine Givar Movement

Splitters!

On behalf of the Regina Regional Committee of the Ine Givar (Solidariti)

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 15:45:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Aug  8 14:45:27 2002
Subject: [TML] How many Xboats...
In-Reply-To: <200208081636.MIN00707@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208081636.MIN00707@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020809074313.A2995@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:

> If the boats leave on the hour (assuming a 24 hour clock), and the
> planet has a route to two other systems, then there are at least 48
> x-boats (there should be spares, to allow for maintenance rotation).

Given that the cycle time for any given x-boat is no less than two
weeks, if they depart on the hour to two other systems then you'll
need about 700 of them.


> I'm not sure if some systems would want to have an x-boat on the
> half-hour, or more often.

How many systems could *afford* an x-boat on the half-hour?  Would it
be worth the cost?  I doubt it.

X-boats that depart on the half-hour don't arrive on the half-hour.
Sending them more often than half a day or so starts to run into the
uncertainty of +-16 hours in the duration of each jump.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 15:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  8 14:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How many Xboats...
Message-ID: <200208082149.MIX01956@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>X-boats that depart on the half-hour don't arrive on the 
>half-hour.
>Sending them more often than half a day or so starts to run 
>into the uncertainty of +-16 hours in the duration of each 
>jump.

I believe that at a minimum, people would want at least a 
daily run.
________________
It is impossible to travel faster than 
the speed of light and certainly not 
desirable, as ones hat keeps falling 
off...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 15:54:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Aug  8 14:54:04 2002
Subject: [TML] animals
Message-ID: <Springmail.0994.1028843628.0.04003000@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>

Flykiller@aol.com posted:
> 
> Hummingbee
<snip> 
> Flying Cougar

Try the Singapore native snake. A story about it was posted today at:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/DailyNews/snake020807.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 16:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Aug  8 15:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] 100 ton scout ship?
References: <berka_3d4644bb22764@webmail.berka.com><20020808184852.12064.qmail@web13403.mail.yahoo.com> <20020808222246.2f21bbe3.jenry023@student.liu.se> <001d01c23f23$20c6cd20$0100a8c0@pentacle>
Message-ID: <3D52EBE3.1030401@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Thing wrote:

 > 
http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/black_triangle_020805.htm
 >  l

Just a quick email note. If you enclose your url's in <> brackets, most
capable email clients will recognize and assemble even multiline url's
properly.

http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/black_triangle_020805.htm
l

Will most likely give a 404 error, but

<http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/black_triangle_020805.html>

usually will work, even if it's broken over two lines

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 16:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 15:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT Help Needed
Message-ID: <7f.2a5ba891.2a844764@aol.com>

I need the help of the list with my MSc.

I am studying the Public Understanding of Science (PUS) and have decided to 
harness the Power Of The Internet(tm) to investigate peoples knowledge and 
attitudes about cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) and "do not resuscitate" 
DNAR orders.

Anyone who would like to help can do so by filling in an online survey and by 
letting others know the URL and what I'm after. More information and access 
to the questionnaire can be found at:

http://members.aol.com/researchfiend/index.html

Thanks in advance to all those who agree to help.  

Charles

I addressed some cheerful chit-chat at the man opposite but was rewarded with 
grunt. I tried the man next to me but he just looked at the gentleman I had 
tried first and said "Do you know what he's talking about?" At this point I 
realised I was getting out my depth but the Dean stepped in and saved me, "Oh 
don't worry about it" he said, "They're mathematicians - we never talk to 
them."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 16:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Aug  8 15:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <02080817101100.00601@linux>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux>
Message-ID: <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>

richard honeycutt wrote:
> My assumptions were : A100999-F  3 gg's     1 belt       hi va na   f5VI
[...]
> 	First I tried Hard Times without imposing any war damage and only cutting 
> trade.  It predicted a 33% chance of the Class a starport dropping to b, 
> followed by a 2 to 5 point drop in tech level. This is caused presumably by 
> the abandonment of the economy by the megacorps and other trade.

Good lord!  That seems way out of whack with the actual level of trade
the planet has according to the Far Trader rules.  I get a total
external trade level of about 300 GCr/year, and average GWP of 60 TCr
per year.

Would the loss of trade worth 0.5% of their economy really have that
drastic an effect within a year or two?  I think most people wouldn't
even notice.  I can understand that the starport might drop to B
through disuse, though probably only if it doesn't have any
intrasystem traffic (that might be why a 33% chance).

A massive drop in tech level seems *exceedingly* unlikely though.  In
trade volume terms, it would be like the Phillipines "abandoning" the
economy of the rest of the world, causing the rest of the world to
experience a massive economic slump, rioting, civil unrest, and
reversion to pre-WWI technology.  No offense to inhabitants of the
Phillipines, but I don't think they prop up the rest of the world.

Likewise, I don't think the minute volume of trade props up the
high-pop worlds in Traveller.


> Food production is not a problem at tech 15, however even at t15,
> the surface area required to grow food is much greater than exists
> on the surface of the rockball

That's broken.  An average hectare per person assigned to food
production is ample even with current technology and without trying
hard.  Tech level 15 should be able to do *much* better.


> without even considering area for housing or industry or materials
> production. IT would take a tech 15 arcology 25000 km^2 just to
> house everyone.

Given that the rockball has a surface area of more than 30000000 km^2,
that's not a concern.


> As all hydroponics would be underground, there would also be huge
> power requirements just to grow the food.

That's not a problem, even if you do decide to abandon the surface.
Traveller fusion power is *really* cheap.  A megawatt would cost no
more than Cr10/week.  It would certainly take much less power than a
megawatt per person to grow food.

In fact, it takes less than a hundred kilowatts per person at current
tech without any concern for energy efficiency.  Yes, that's including
light input.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 16:35:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Aug  8 15:35:05 2002
Subject: [TML] How many Xboats...
In-Reply-To: <200208082149.MIX01956@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208082149.MIX01956@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020809083445.C2995@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> I believe that at a minimum, people would want at least a daily run.

I agree -- half a day between X-boats would be about right, I think.
So what if many of them arrive in the wrong order? :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 16:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Aug  8 15:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How many Xboats...
In-Reply-To: <200208082149.MIX01956@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D539CBE.10878.42BDF9@localhost>

On 8 Aug 2002 at 17:49, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Timothy Little says
> >X-boats that depart on the half-hour don't arrive on the 
> >half-hour.
> >Sending them more often than half a day or so starts to run 
> >into the uncertainty of +-16 hours in the duration of each 
> >jump.
> 
> I believe that at a minimum, people would want at least a 
> daily run.

I've always assumed a daily run down each branch IMTU, plus assorted 
special runs as required.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 16:50:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  8 15:50:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux>
 <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <02080817101100.00601@linux>
 <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <m3sn1p7yq7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:
> 
> That's broken.  An average hectare per person assigned to food
> production is ample even with current technology and without trying
> hard.  Tech level 15 should be able to do *much* better.

You can feed a man on 2 1/2 acres?  What would you be planting?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I've resigned myself to seeing everything I consider meritorious slowly
destroyed by the forces of corruption, greed and stupidity, but it's
really adding insult to injury that they can't even maintain a facade of
competence.                                                --Tim Mefford

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 17:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Aug  8 16:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3D53003A.1070102@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Timothy Little wrote:
> richard honeycutt wrote:
> 
>>My assumptions were : A100999-F  3 gg's     1 belt       hi va na   f5VI
> 
> [...]
> 
>>	First I tried Hard Times without imposing any war damage and only cutting 
>>trade.  It predicted a 33% chance of the Class a starport dropping to b, 
>>followed by a 2 to 5 point drop in tech level. This is caused presumably by 
>>the abandonment of the economy by the megacorps and other trade.
> 
> 
> Good lord!  That seems way out of whack with the actual level of trade
> the planet has according to the Far Trader rules.  I get a total
> external trade level of about 300 GCr/year, and average GWP of 60 TCr
> per year.

This is because all of the above econmomic models (Hard Times, GT:FT, 
WBH, WTH) are all a) mutually incompatible, and b) subject to widely 
varying assumptions.

You can't compare these, and which model is correct depends on which 
rule set you use.

In general econometric analysis of the OTU is going to be pretty much 
hopeless, imo, because the gaps in data are so much larger than the data.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 18:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Thu Aug  8 17:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020806113510.45efd91c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEOGEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>IMHO, the model for Arbellatra is Augustus--not Julius--Caesar. That is,
she
>>was more a illiant politician than a brilliant general. I base this on a
few
>>factors:
>
>Good model.  I was thinking a bit of Hitler, personally.  Same kind of
>personal magnetism.
>
Charisma in a politician  to this extent is not entirely unknown across the
political spectrum. Julius Caesar certainly had it, as did Alexander the
Great, as well as possibly Franklin Roosevelt and Hitler.

>>1) She essentially lost the 2FW but still managed to declare victory and
>>mobilize the Marches behind her. (Remember, the Imperium ceded territory
to
>>the Zhodani after the war, and Library Data mentions that the final
>>engagement resulted in a "stalemate" between the two sides. She basically
>>one the war the same way the U.S. "won" the War of 1812--by not losing as
>>badly as expected.)
>
>This might have come from misunderstanding Zhodani war goals.  Arbellatra
>probably knew from the start that the Zhodani wanted to remove the Imperium
>from Zhodani territory, not destroy the Imperium.  But playing up the image
>of the Zho's as barbarians helped her cause.  A draw was as good as a
>victory to her.

I suspect that she did know more about the Zhodani than her contemporaries.
The Zhos have never been expansionist and have only attempted to restrain
the Imperium's expansionistic tendencies.

<snip>
>
>>3) Her masterly stroke of refusing the crown is remarkably similar to
>>Augustus' own "retirement" from government--while in truth retaining a
firm
>>grip on the reins of power. (The people of Rome demanded at one point that
>>he publish a list of candidates he favored, so they would know who to vote
>>for--not from coercion, but from a devotion to Augustus.)
>
>It is her that I am of two minds..  I sort of like the idea that she
>honestly meant to find a surviving Zhunastu heir; only taking the throne
>when that proved impossible.
>

I  also like the idea that she was most concerned with the Imperium and
honestly tried to find an heir.

>>My interpretation may also explain her meteoric rise to high command at
such
>>a young age--perhaps her title of Grand Admiral of the Marches was a
>>ceremonial one, or rank was determined by noble standing to a much greater
>>degree in the antebellum Imperium. (Indeed, perhaps Arbellatra reformed
the
>>military to make it more egalitarian, not only to prevent a rival from
>>rising in a fashion like her own, but to insure loyalty to the Emperor and
>>the Imperium and not the individual commander, as seems to be the case
with
>>Plankwell and the other Emperors of the Flag.)
>
>"Nothing succeeds like success" they say.  I've always sensed that along
>with being politically brilliant, she was possibly the greatest strategic
>and tactical mind the Imperium ever saw.  She was only 28 when the war
>broke out, according to canon.  I'd prefer to push her date of birth back
>to 567, making her 48 at the beginning of the war.  This at least gives her
>the age to have had a fairly long career and been at least an experienced
>Captain or junior Admiral.  This would, IMHO, make her seizure of the
>fleets far more acceptable.  No one is going to listen to a pup of a Ltd.
>Commander.
>
Alexander the great succeeded to the thrown at the age of twenty. By the
time he was 32 he controlled nearly the entire known world, at least as
known to him. In a society where a child's future position of command is
known at a very early age military training would start at a very young age.
I see her as reading Sun Tsu by age nine and Machiavelli by age twelve. If
she was a prodigy she could have been an ensign by age 18 or 20. If she was
successful in actual combat missions, against pirates or corsairs she could
have risen rapidly, or perhaps she outfitted her own ship and was actually a
"privateer noble" captain before the war. Francis Drake was a ships captain
at the age of twenty, and already a legendary privateer at that time.

The fact is we don't know how the Imperial fleet was made up at that time.
CT's character generation rules seem to indicate that the IN during the
1100's follows modern (20th century) wet Navy practices, with Naval
Academies, OCS, etc. This doesn't really say anything about how the Imperial
Navy operated four hundred years earlier.

The U.S. Naval Academy (the original one at Philadelphia not the one at
Annapolis) was founded because young officers (who were trained aboard ship
as midshipmen as described in the Hornblower novels) rebelled and Navy
leaders wanted them to have a more formal education, which included more
stringent discipline in a more controlled setting.

If officers of Arbellatra's time were trained in the fleet, instead of on
planet at an academy, then she could have been an officer while still in her
teens. If ships and fleets were personally raised by nobles, then if she
showed herself competent or her family had enough money she could very well
have been a captain while still in her twenties. Such a fleet would be more
loyal to the people who raised it that to the Imperium, or at least to the
Emperor.

I like her young age. It fits in well with a more age of sail feel for the
setting during this time. A closer tie between a fleet's admiral's and
officers and the men and women manning the ships would result if all the
fleets were colonial in nature. It explains why Plankwell's fleet followed
him to capital, without a serious dissenting voice. And why the other fleets
would follow their leaders without seriously protesting in the name of the
Emperor.

I could really get into this period. I find it much more interesting than
the Interstellar War period. (Sorry Loren.)



Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 18:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  8 17:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How many Xboats...
Message-ID: <200208090022.MJB03321@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>So what if many of them arrive in the wrong order? :)

Your email can arrive in the wrong order, theoretically.  But 
everything has a timestamp specifying the incept of the 
message.
________________
It is impossible to travel faster than 
the speed of light and certainly not 
desirable, as ones hat keeps falling 
off...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 18:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  8 17:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <200208090025.MJB03477@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Robert Uhl asks
>You can feed a man on 2 1/2 acres?  What would you be 
>planting?

Soylent green.
________________
It is impossible to travel faster than 
the speed of light and certainly not 
desirable, as ones hat keeps falling 
off...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 19:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 18:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] jenry023@student.liu.se
Message-ID: <a.2330244c.2a8474ff@aol.com>

 >I am working on creating a Traveller campaign in which your adventure would 
fit  >nicely, though... will run it as soon as one of the other campaigns 
end...

Please let me know how it turns out.  Thanks.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 19:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Aug  8 18:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <m3sn1p7yq7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
 <02080313391901.00601@linux>
 <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <02080817101100.00601@linux>
 <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020808214249.025e5ec8@192.168.0.1>

At 04:49 PM 8/8/2002 -0600, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
>Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:
> >
> > That's broken.  An average hectare per person assigned to food
> > production is ample even with current technology and without trying
> > hard.  Tech level 15 should be able to do *much* better.
>
>You can feed a man on 2 1/2 acres?  What would you be planting?

Well, first off, as Bruce Johnson said, all the various version are mostly 
incompatible with each other.

Second, I keep see folks say stuff like "well, at TL 15 this isn't a 
problem".  All of the Imperium is not running at TL 15.
You have TL 12 & TL 11 or lower rockballs out there.  Sure they can import 
cool high tech stuff, but how long can a TL 9 rockball support TL 15 
equipment on their own?

As to what they grow to get that yield, there are things that will do it, 
like the blue green algae I mentioned before.
That makes a boring diet though. It's a good staple, but for long term 
usage, you're gonna want to have variety.
If it's too expensive to import, then you have to grow it locally.  Ya, 
beef is great stuff, but it takes a lot of grain to feed a cow, and then 
space for the cow.

Space is big, even if you just limit it to Imperial Space, it's big.
You will probably find a wide range of solutions.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 19:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Thu Aug  8 18:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Do I have to Yahoo! ?
Message-ID: <000c01c23f32$9edea020$c9c4d63f@customer>

Could someone tell me if it is necessary to follow these instructions to
subscribe to The JTAS

John Scarlett

Hello jlscarlett@earthlink.net,

We have received your request to join the JTAS
group hosted by Yahoo! Groups, a free, easy-to-use community service.

This request will expire in 21 days.

TO BECOME A MEMBER OF THE GROUP:

1) Go to the Yahoo! Groups site by clicking on this link:


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link%2Enet

  (If clicking doesn't work, "Cut" and "Paste" the line above into your
   Web browser's address bar.)

-OR-

2) REPLY to this email by clicking "Reply" and then "Send"
   in your email program

If you did not request, or do not want, a membership in the
JTAS group, please accept our apologies
and ignore this message.

Regards,

Yahoo! Groups Customer Care

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 19:57:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Thu Aug  8 18:57:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Food requirements for people
In-Reply-To: <200208090025.MJB03477@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020808220125.0295d6b0@mail.buffnet.net>

For what it is worth - in medieval times, a family of 5, 2 adults and 3 
children, could survive on the produce of 15 acres per year.  This works 
out to 3 acres on average per person.  Keep in mind as well, that the 15 
acres of land no only supported the 5 people, but produced enough surplus 
that for every 10 peasant families working the land, 1 city family was 
supported.  Overall, I'm guessing that each 3 acres of land provided enough 
support for 1.1 people on average.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 20:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Thu Aug  8 19:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020806114206.364f75c8@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNIEOHEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>The one thing I can't stand is the ship designs. I loath the Caen. Among
>>other problems: Where are the navy ratings bunked? They certainly wouldn't
>>be with the Marines, not since the rest of canon says that they should be
>>living in staterooms, which I would suppose are separate from the
officer's
>>staterooms. I could go on and on about the failings of the design, but I
>>don't want to rant.
>
>I have problems with the Caen deckplans myself.  It was designed as a very
>"close" ship, and I did put in that the rest of the Navy thinks the crews
>that work the Caens are oddballs.  If you have an improved design, I'd love
>to see it.
>--
>
>Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com

Here's a slightly revised Caen design, with a nod to Heinlein:

1,200-ton Roger Young -class Dropship, Davy Crockett (TL12)
Crew: 30 Total. 20 Command and Control, 1 Maneuver Drive, 1 Jump Drive, 2
Medical, 4 Nuclear Damper Operators, 1 Weapon Bay Gunners, 2 Turret Gunners.
Hull: 1,200-ton USL, Medium Frame, Standard Materials, Bonded Superdense
(Expensive) Armored Hull (DR 2,000, Thermal Super-conducting Armor,
Psi-Shielded, Instant Chameleon, LCD Skin), Standard Compartmentalization.
Control Areas: Command Bridge (Hardened, Complexity 10), Military
Information Center (Hardened, Complexity 10).
Communicator Range (mi)	Radio	Maser	Laser	Meson
Command Bridge	50,000,000	0	100,000,000	200,000

Sensors Range/Rating (mi)	Passive	Active	Radscanner
Command Bridge	100,000/41	200,000/43	30,000/38
Engineering: Engineering, 60 Jump Drive, 170 Maneuver Drive (3.03 / 3.86 Gs,
17,000 stons thrust), 240 Fuel Tank, 2 Fuel Processor (15 hours to refine ),
3 Utility.
Accommodations: 76 4 Person Bunkroom, 10 Stateroom, 2 Sickbay (6 Patients),
Operating Theater (2 Patients), 2 Low Berth (8 Cryoberths), 20 Drop Capsule
Rack (320 Users), 2 Drop Capsule Launcher, 16 Battle Dress Morgue (320
Users), 3 Shooting Range (6 Users), 3 Gymnasium (12 Users), Military
Holoventure.
Armaments: Nuclear Damper (10 mi), 1 Lg Internal Bay Battery of 1 (Lg Lt
Missile Bay [8200], Lg Lt Missile Bay Load [x8200]), 2 Turret Batteries of 1
each (DR 1,000, 3x405 Mj Std Laser[RoF Bonus +1]).
Weapon Name	Qty	Type	Acc	SS	Dmg	RoF	1/2 Rng	Max
Lg Lt Missile Bay [8200]	1					(+0)		10,000,000/1000
405 Mj Std Laser	6	Imp	33	30	5dx100(2)	1/60 (+7)	26000/3	78100/8

Missiles/Probes	Qty	DR	G-Rds	Exp Dmg	KK-Dmg	Size	AMod	PMod
Lg Lt Missile Bay Load [x8200]	1	120	10G-30	6dx80(10)	6dx100(5)	0	-8	-8
Stores: 55 Vehicle Bay (55 dtons for small craft available).
Statistics: DMass 4,165.47 stons, EMass 4,405.47 stons, LMass 5,609.17
stons, Base Cost MCr404.64, Load Cost MCr172.28, Total Cost MCr576.92, HP
75,000, Damage Threshold 7,500, Size Mod +10, HT 12, 96.6 Man-Hours/day
Maintenance.
Space Performance: Jump-4, sAcc 3.03/3.03/3.86/4.08 Gs.
Air Performance: aSpeed 600 mph, Skimming aSpeed 11,692 mph, aLift 17,000
stons.
Sample Times : Orbit 0.11 Hrs, Escape Velocity 0.16 Hrs, 100D 3.67 Hrs,
Earth-Mars 62.97 Hrs.
Options
All times are Earth Std, Full Load.
100D and Earth-Mars assume mid-point turnover.
Printed with GMV Version 2.32.01 on 08/08/2002 9:33:24 PM
Copyright (c) 2002 by I.T. Carlino

I reduced the armor to 2000 and the speed to 3 G, fully loaded. This thing
isn't going to be fighting in the line of battle.  This speed should be
adequate. It's still almost as fast as a Keith Transport, and faster than a
Nakerkh lander. This let me reduce the M-drives enough to replace the bunk
rooms with 4 person staterooms. (I hope I got them right. I doubled the cost
and weight of a two man stateroom, so I probably over compensated.)

The write up says that the Imperium normally loads out bunkrooms with 4
person per stateroom. It strikes me that this kind of Dropship will
typically be on patrol with Marines ready to deploy. So the four person per
room makes sense to me. I hope Starships has an official 4 person stateroom
module. I certainly pushed it hard enough during the playtest. I included 10
Staterooms for officers. Four are for ships officers and the other six for
Marine Officers

Of the 20 Command and Control personnel half should be Marines in the
Military Information Center, which I would suppose is the same as the Caen's
Tactical Command Center.

Crew will consist of Captain, Pilot, Navigator, Chief Engineer, Doctor, as
well as more engineers than indicated above. Probably at least 4 more. I
would expect 6 ship officers sharing 3 staterooms with the captain have a
stateroom to herself. The troop commander will probably have a private
stateroom also. With the rest being shared by the rest of the Marine
Officers.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 20:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 19:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Do I have to Yahoo! ?
Message-ID: <177.cae8ad7.2a847ccf@aol.com>

--part1_177.cae8ad7.2a847ccf_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> Could someone tell me if it is necessary to follow these instructions to
> subscribe to The JTAS.

Hmmm.

The JTAS group on Yahoo! is mostly just for announcements of new
content in the real Journal of the Traveller's Aid Society. I've never seen
it used for anything else.

If you want to subscribe to JTAS itself - the actual webzine currently
run by Steve Jackson Games - you can go to http://jtas.sjgames.com/ .
There are samples of content that you can look at before deciding
whether you want to subscribe or not, and I believe you can actually
subscribe using a link from that page.

Enjoy.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

--part1_177.cae8ad7.2a847ccf_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt; Could someone tell me if it is necessary to follow these instructions to
<BR>&gt; subscribe to The JTAS.
<BR>
<BR>Hmmm.
<BR>
<BR>The JTAS group on Yahoo! is mostly just for announcements of new
<BR>content in the real Journal of the Traveller's Aid Society. I've never seen
<BR>it used for anything else.
<BR>
<BR>If you want to subscribe to JTAS itself - the actual webzine currently
<BR>run by Steve Jackson Games - you can go to http://jtas.sjgames.com/ .
<BR>There are samples of content that you can look at before deciding
<BR>whether you want to subscribe or not, and I believe you can actually
<BR>subscribe using a link from that page.
<BR>
<BR>Enjoy.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_177.cae8ad7.2a847ccf_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 20:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  8 19:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Stripmime
Message-ID: <B97873B1.69033%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Someone on the TML kindly modified Stripmime to allow messages without a
content type to get posted on the list (A fix for Leonard).  If that person
still has a copy, could they please contact me.  I've lost the original tha=
t
you sent me.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 20:20:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  8 19:20:10 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Lawyers should look into this...
Message-ID: <20020809021802.34319.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com>

>Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 16:17:51 -0400
>
>"They envision silent guns"
>
>ok, a gauss rifle

Where did you get your silent gauss rifle?  The bullets in mine
always make a boom as they break the sound barrier.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 20:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Thu Aug  8 19:24:03 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <001a01c23f4b$b6502d00$7400a8c0@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Timothy Little" <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 11:33 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE


> richard honeycutt wrote:

> > As all hydroponics would be underground, there would also be huge
> > power requirements just to grow the food.
>
> That's not a problem, even if you do decide to abandon the surface.
> Traveller fusion power is *really* cheap.  A megawatt would cost no
> more than Cr10/week.  It would certainly take much less power than a
> megawatt per person to grow food.
>
> In fact, it takes less than a hundred kilowatts per person at current
> tech without any concern for energy efficiency.  Yes, that's including
> light input.

All fine and dandy. Basically your position is that due to the ready
availability of cheap fusion power and the relatively small volume of
interstellar trade, an isolated system is still essentially self-sufficient
in most circumstances. Fair enough.

However, the original post on this 'Failed World' topic was regarding their
prevalence in TNE. Battle Damage to infrastructure during Hard Times would
certainly cause short term (i.e. a few years) stress on a systems self
sufficiency. Parts designed with hundred or thousand year lifetimes (i.e.
major structural elements of Domed Cities etc) might require specialist
technology not available locally. The lack of external trade would hinder
efforts to obtain this technology (or replacement parts), which would not be
apparent in regular trading figures. Then Virus hits and suddenly your cheap
ubiquitous fusion reactors are... well... 'not operating to nominal
specification' probably sums it up best... neither is your life support.

If your planet is not capable of sustaining life without TL9+ tech (maybe
even as low as TL5+. Most airless rockballs won't have handy reserves of
fossil fuels...) then you are in trouble. And the numerous deaths that arise
are likely to take out the people most capable of repairing or redirecting
technology early on, as they will likely be the first to respond to the
numerous extremely hazardous emergencies that arise, with often fatal
consequences.

So, already stressed LS and Power supplies become actively hostile and
malignant. Help will not be coming from outside (any ship arriving is likely
to make a very abnormal re-entry... 'death-diving' into cities etc) and no
chance to escape off-planet either, unless you want to risk plunging back to
the ground in a Terminal fashion of having a very close encounter with
either the local star or vacuum. Rioting, looting, and hysteria will do even
more damage...

High TL is a wonderful thing for supporting billions of people in comfort on
otherwise inhospitable environments... but when your high TL *is* the
inhospitable environment you need to get as far away from it as possible.
And a billion shopworkers and accountants don't make the best farmers...
especially when your harvesting machinery is trying to eat you... witness
the end of Dulinor...

Matt






From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 20:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Burns)
Date: Thu Aug  8 19:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] 100 ton scout ship?
Message-ID: <20020809023547.29492.qmail@web10605.mail.yahoo.com>

On Thu, 08 Aug 2002 11:48:52 -0700 (PDT)
Bernie McGeehan wrote:


> I found this while flipping through the pages of
> Space.com....Vilani contact teams in Illinois?

"Well judging from the dimensions and estimated weight
I believe it is in fact the padded shipping container
for one Imperial Type S Scout/Courier. This just goes
to prove my suspicion that all UFO sightings and
contacts are with extraterrestial waste management
units. The requisite occasional abduction and testing
is to determine if we can finally be classified as a
hazardous waste sight so they can start dumping the
really nasty stuff. Watch the skies! The junk is out
there!" :)

On Thu, 8 Aug 2002 22:22:46 +0200
Jens Rydholm wrote:

Meanwhile, I played around a bit with the URL. Try
this one instead.

http://www.space.com/php/multimedia/imagedisplay/img_display.php?pic=h_black_trihigh_02,0.jpg&cap=All%20your%20base%20are%20belong%20to%20us

Note to self: Don't make web pages that have this
bug/feature.

"LOL That is just too funny! I suppose the nice thing
to do would be to tell them ;) perhaps in a creative
and fun way ;) like an anonymous e-mail with a "link"
to their article." :)

Dan "far-trader" Burns

still looking for 'the' definitive .sig file




______________________________________________________________________ 
Post your ad for free now! http://personals.yahoo.ca

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 20:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  8 19:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Lawyers should look into this...
Message-ID: <200208090248.MJH00974@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Glenn M. Goffin" says
>Where did you get your silent gauss rifle?  The bullets in 
>mine always make a boom as they break the sound barrier.

Actually, I've fired quite a few rifle rounds with a 
suppressor - the crack is noticeable - but depending on where 
you are downrange, it may be impossible to localize the 
source of the firing.  The crack is heard as the round passes 
you by - if the round misses far to the right of you, you 
will hear the sound to your right, even if the shooter is 
nowhere to the right.  

More of a snapping sound in most cases - a light cracking.  
For people not familiar with the sound at all, it may or may 
not be identified as gunfire.

I would be that the gauss rifle would sound like this, except 
that the sound from the firing point would be non-existent.
________________
It is impossible to travel faster than 
the speed of light and certainly not 
desirable, as ones hat keeps falling 
off...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 21:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu Aug  8 20:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] 100 ton scout ship?
In-Reply-To: <3D52EBE3.1030401@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020809030206.EC91C2793F@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/08/02 at 03:08 PM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
said:

>Thing wrote:

> > 
>http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/black_triangle_020805.htm
> >  l

>Just a quick email note. If you enclose your url's in <> brackets,
>most capable email clients will recognize and assemble even multiline
>url's properly.

>http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/black_triangle_020805.htm
>l

>Will most likely give a 404 error, but

><http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/black_triangle_020805.html>

>usually will work, even if it's broken over two lines

Usually, perhaps, but not always. Mine doesn't.

Eris

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 21:05:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Thu Aug  8 20:05:30 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <20020806203758.D28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEOIEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

Terry Carlino wrote:
>
>> Part of the point would be to force ships attempting to traverse the
>> area to slow down, use sensors and weapons to clear the mine
>> field. This alone would make them detectable to opposing craft.
>
>I've not found detection of enemy craft to be much of a problem in my
>test-bed runs.  Usually the side with mines controls the system, sees
>the jump flash of any intruder, and can track everything they
>subsequently do.
>
>Maybe I'm just lacking battle experience against other people.  Is
>avoiding detection by the defender a possibility in most people's
>scenarios?
>
>
>- Tim

I guess a lot depends on the tactical conditions. If the system is only
moderately inhabited, with a small defense force an attacker may try a close
in jump and an immediate engagement with the enemy, especially if the
attacking fleet has battle riders and can synchronize their jumps (so that
all ship arrive at effectively the same time.) They may try to overwhelm the
defender.

If jumps cannot be synchronized then an attacking fleet is going to want to
come in far outside the 100 D limit where there is not likely to be a
defending fleet.

In the first case the defenders will see the jump flash, and probably be
able to follow the attackers from then on, especially if the have many
enhanced sensor stations spread throughout near space. In the second case
they will see the flash and know something's coming, but it still might take
days for the attacker's units to form up and weeks for them to actually
attack. How long can your forces stay on high alert before they start to
lose their edge?  Especially when there are dozens of flashes every day for
a week.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 21:12:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  8 20:12:10 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Lawyers should look into this...
In-Reply-To: <20020809021802.34319.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020808200720.009fabd0@mindspring.com>

At 07:18 PM 8/8/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 16:17:51 -0400
> >
> >"They envision silent guns"
> >
> >ok, a gauss rifle
>
>Where did you get your silent gauss rifle?  The bullets in mine
>always make a boom as they break the sound barrier.

Most of the sound associated with weapons fire is the sound of the powder 
going off.  The crack of the bullet is negligible.  For example, a silenced 
.22LR is nearly silent in operation.

A 4mm gauss round would make a high pitched *crack* audible only to those 
near the flight path.


-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Some people have told me they don't think a fat penguin
really embodies the grace of Linux, which just tells me
they have never seen an angry penguin charging at them
in excess of 100 mph. They'd be a lot more careful about
what they say if they had. - Linus Torvalds




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 21:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  8 20:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEOGEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEOGEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <m3k7n0d7ru.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Terry Carlino" <carlino@cox.net> writes:
>
> Alexander the great succeeded to the thrown at the age of twenty.  By
> the time he was 32 he controlled nearly the entire known world, at
> least as known to him. 

> I see her as reading Sun Tsu by age nine and Machiavelli by age
> twelve.  If she were a prodigy she could have been an ensign by age
> 18 or 20.  Francis Drake was a ships captain at the age of twenty,
> and already a legendary privateer at that time.

> The U.S. Naval Academy (the original one at Philadelphia not the one
> at Annapolis) was founded because young officers (who were trained
> aboard ship as midshipmen as described in the Hornblower novels)
> rebelled and Navy leaders wanted them to have a more formal
> education, which included more stringent discipline in a more
> controlled setting.

> If officers of Arbellatra's time were trained in the fleet, instead
> of on planet at an academy, then she could have been an officer
> while still in her teens.  If ships and fleets were personally
> raised by nobles, then if she showed herself competent or her family
> had enough money she could very well have been a captain while still
> in her twenties.  Such a fleet would be more loyal to the people who
> raised it than to the Imperium, or at least to the Emperor.

> I like her young age.  It fits in well with a more age of sail feel
> for the setting during this time.

_Exactly_.  Selections quoted for reiterative effect.  You've hit it
in a nutshell.

As a matter of fact, I am unconvinced that the modern
`generalist-to-18' model is long for this world.  I think that as
technology &c. progress further and further the great minds (as
opposed to the great masses) will more and more be schooled in their
subjects from the earliest age.  Particle physics at 4, advanced
quantum physics at 6, <whatever-replaces-it> at 10, and so on until
one has absorbed the entire history, progression and founding of one's
field.  It's rapidly becoming apparent that four years of college are
not enough; master's or doctoral work is necessary to truly _grok_ a
subject (and I write this as one without a master's or a doctorate).

The only workable solution, given that children of an early age are
not properly testable, is a system of like-father-like-son.  Which,
fortunately enough, ties into mankind's proclivities enough that it'll
probably work out nicely enough.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
America may be unique in being a country which has leapt from barbarism
to decadence without touching civilisation.               --John O'Hara

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 22:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Aug  8 21:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] getting rid of a body (was Re: Yes PM)
In-Reply-To: <200208050251.MBX00823@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20808.205731.7y1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson says
> <snip the drawbacks of the various ways>
> I still think my method of lime, sulfur, and water works 
> rather well - I remember the demonstration we received with a 
> pig carcass - the bones and teeth were gone after a week 
> underground with the mixture.
>
> If you're lucky, and you work near a steel mill, there are 
> tanks where they recycle the sulfuric acid - they keep it at 
> about 18 M.  Drop someone in that (watch the splash) and 
> there won't be anything left.  The recycling process will 
> take care of the impurities.

Actually, thee are body parts (fats and things like gallstones) that
can survive that. So can *fillings*.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 03:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 02:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <m3sn1p7yq7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <m3sn1p7yq7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020809190630.A3949@freeman.little-possums.net>

Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> You can feed a man on 2 1/2 acres?  What would you be planting?

That's not quite the statement I made, since I was talking more like
100 farms of 100 hectares feeding ten thousand.  Your question implies
a single farm feeding one person who has to look after it all
themselves with small-scale tools.

With that qualification in mind, just about anything.  Each person
needs to eat about 0.3 tonnes per year of a balanced diet.


A potato crop of 30-40 tonnes per hectare is normal.  Cereal crops
tend to yield 3-5 tonnes per hectare.  Legumes typically yield 2-3
tonnes of edible produce per hectare.  Apples often yield 30 tonnes
per hectare.

Grain-fed meat animals typically eat about 15-20 times their dressed
carcass mass during growth, so about 0.2 tonnes per hectare including
both crops and feedlot space.  Farmed fish seem to do better, at about
3-5 times their mass of fillets in feed, for about 1 edible tonne per
year inclusive of feed.


You could devote 30% of the crop capacity to feed meat animals, 15% to
dairy animals and egg-laying chickens, 5% to fish, 10% to cereals for
human consumption, 10% to potatoes or similar basic staples, 10% to
legumes of various varieties, 5% for fruits such as apples, and 15% to
various other items that I haven't thought of yet.

With that mix, on average per hectare per day you could expect:

220 g of red meat
130 g of fish
260 g of eggs
1.4 L of milk
50 g of butter
1.4 kg of cereal products
6.8 kg of potatoes (!)
550 g of peas, beans, or lentils
4.1 kg of apples (or other fruits)

If you don't think this is enough to support a person for a day, you
*really* need to go on a diet ;)

Naturally, I'm not a dietician and the percentages were just plucked
out of the air.  Feel free to change them.  In particular, you should
reallocate heaps of area from human-edible produce to other purposes;
people don't need to eat anywhere near that much.

The yields themselves were *not* plucked out of the air, they were
gathered and cross-checked from various agricultural reports while I
should have been building a document control system today.


I'm actually rather surprised: my original estimate was based on just
eyeballing Tasmania's map and guessing how much of it feeds Tasmania's
population.  It looks like my original estimate of 1 hectare per
person was grossly high.  Based on these firmer and more authoritative
figures, 0.2 hectares per person should suffice.

And remember, this is all based on *current* technology, and with
little economic incentive for high yields per unit area of land.
(Ongoing expenses are far more significant than land values)

By TL15 you can almost certainly synthesize everything you need,
including getting the texture just right.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 03:08:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 02:08:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <3D53003A.1070102@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D53003A.1070102@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020809190742.B3949@freeman.little-possums.net>

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> You can't compare these, and which model is correct depends on which
> rule set you use.

Isn't this a bit deplorable, considering that they're all meant to be
describing the same universe?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 03:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 02:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020808214249.025e5ec8@192.168.0.1>
References: <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <m3sn1p7yq7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20020808214249.025e5ec8@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020809190909.C3949@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> As to what they grow to get that yield, there are things that will
>do it,

Yes, just about anything will do it.  You don't need to resort to
algae.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 03:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  9 02:12:03 2002
Subject: Growing Food (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization)
In-Reply-To: <20020809014903.25005.59602.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17d5nW-0004bi-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>) wrote:

> Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:
> > 
> > That's broken.  An average hectare per person assigned to food
> > production is ample even with current technology and without trying
> > hard.  Tech level 15 should be able to do *much* better.
> 
> You can feed a man on 2 1/2 acres?  What would you be planting?

Lots of stuff.  Soybeans, rice, and various greens and root veggies 
should work at that size.  IIRC, that's also enough room to do for   
to do high density carp ponds where the fish are feed agricultural 
waste.  There are lots of high density farming options, and I believe 
the minimums are actually more like 1.5-2 acres person.  OTOH, 
you can't grow beef or pretty much any meat other than carp at 
that density.  

Also, if you are willing to do hydroponics you can do multiple levels 
hydroponic trays.  With 1.5 meters between vertically stacked 
trays, you could grow 2.5 acres of food in a 1.5 acre warehouse 
that was 3 meters tall and still have space to harvest everything.    

Finally, I'm guessing vat meat will be no more than TL 11 and that's 
likely not going to take much space at all.  

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 03:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 02:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Stripmime
In-Reply-To: <B97873B1.69033%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B97873B1.69033%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020809191300.D3949@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> Someone on the TML kindly modified Stripmime to allow messages without a
> content type to get posted on the list (A fix for Leonard).

That would be me.  Locating and sending it now.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 03:31:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 02:31:13 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <001a01c23f4b$b6502d00$7400a8c0@matt>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <001a01c23f4b$b6502d00$7400a8c0@matt>
Message-ID: <20020809193011.F3949@freeman.little-possums.net>

Matthew Bond wrote:
> Basically your position is that due to the ready availability of
> cheap fusion power and the relatively small volume of interstellar
> trade, an isolated system is still essentially self-sufficient in
> most circumstances. Fair enough.

I'm saying they don't even need cheap fusion power.  Solar insolation
is good enough.


> However, the original post on this 'Failed World' topic was regarding their
> prevalence in TNE.

Actually, the original post was:
  >> How serious is the trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took place
  >> because the small island of England was not self-sufficient in either
  >> agricultural or industrial matters, but I don't think this situation
  >> will arise on many _planets_.  
  >
  > cough cough
  >        How many dinky airless rockballs with large populations do the world 
  > generation rules permit? 

Unless you mean this one:
  >         I know that they won't starve. Out of curiosity, I decided to work out what 
  > might happen though. 

In both cases, it was purely the isolation effect that we were
considering, not any active bombardment or aggressive forces.

In particular, I am not remotely interested in any effects based on
particular aspects of the TNE setting history.  If you want to know
more about my opinion on that subject, search the archives.  I will
elaborate no further.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 03:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 02:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEOIEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <20020806203758.D28821@freeman.little-possums.net> <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEOIEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20020809193421.G3949@freeman.little-possums.net>

Terry Carlino wrote:
> In the second case they will see the flash and know something's
> coming, but it still might take days for the attacker's units to
> form up and weeks for them to actually attack.

Are you saying that the tracking systems will lose them in the
meantime?  That may be so, but surely the attacker must form their
plans based on the probability that they are still being tracked?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christian K)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Lawyers should look into this...
References: <200208090248.MJH00974@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <002801c23f8c$4e3199c0$0664a8c0@bigdarkone>

From: "John T. Kwon"
> "Glenn M. Goffin" says
> >Where did you get your silent gauss rifle?  The bullets in
> >mine always make a boom as they break the sound barrier.
> Actually, I've fired quite a few rifle rounds with a
> suppressor - the crack is noticeable - but depending on where
> you are downrange, it may be impossible to localize the
> source of the firing.  The crack is heard as the round passes
> you by - if the round misses far to the right of you, you
> will hear the sound to your right, even if the shooter is
> nowhere to the right.
> I would be that the gauss rifle would sound like this, except
> that the sound from the firing point would be non-existent.
Actually a Suppressor works by slowing bullets under soundspeed so they
don't break the soundbarrier. So considering the tremendous high speed on
wich a Gaussgun relies to get its punch it would be more or less sensless to
slow it down. And since laser are Loud as Hell if you want silent weaps use
em in HardVac or chemical supressed ones. (or MagAccel with low speeds)

my two cents ;)

Chris



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: COMET BUSTERS
Message-ID: <eg57lukcjjik00lqt50t7684vf8f6anab3@4ax.com>

I sent you email requesting a real name to attach to Comet Busters, as
Freelance Traveller policy is to have either a real name (preferred) or a
plausible pseudonym (allowed on a case-by-case basis, liberal decision
criteria) attached to an article, and Comet Busters is definitely worth
seeing in Freelance Traveller.  Do I assume from lack of reply that you are
_not_ interested in seeing it there?



Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture 
Enterprises, 1977-2000.  Use of the trademark in 
this notice and in the referenced materials is not 
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.freelancetraveller.com
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
editor@freelancetraveller.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <p04330103b9720a71cb73@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20809.011127.5m5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> It seemed a good deal.  You aren't first into battle (you aren't any 
> more likely to get killed since the unfrozen guys get killed first) 
> and you don't have to deal with boredom between battles.  Odds are 
> you sign up, get frozen, and wake up with all your pay waiting for 
> you.

Unless you missed the clause in the contract that calculates your
"term" by the time you spend *thawed*. Mind you, it's legal, because
you *do* get paid for the frozen time, though at a lower rate.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:26:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:26:31 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <011801c23adc$bdd0f780$1d17bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <20809.024856.2h6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>
>> >Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
>>  >big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.
>>
>> What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other sensor
> systems
>> you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?
>
>
> Mines, even of a CAPTOR type, don't have much area coverage. You'd need a
> lot of them to cover an area, though orbits and other choke points are a
> possibility.

There's always the "nuclear shotgun" approach. 

Basicly, a nuke that is being used to convery something (styrofoam
works!) into a plasma to push a bunch of projectiles. 

Someone posted a design on rec.arts.sf.science years back, and I copied
it here. 

The basic idea is that you get a conical (or spherical, though conical
is more efficient) of fractional c BBs. 

This can make life very hazardous throughout a *large* volume. 

Is that a commsat, a chunk of scrap from a battle, or a mine? And can
you afford the time to avoid coming within the mutiple *thousand* km
kill range of all such objects in approaching a planet?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:27:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:27:01 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <133.124edb2b.2a7daff5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20809.025428.5B0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>  >> What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other 
>  >> sensor systems 
>  >> you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?
>  >
>  >I recommend you read Bruce Alan Macintosh's Definitive Sensor Rules for 
>  >T4/FF&S2 for a complete discussion of sensors.  Passive sensors IRL 
>  >would have ranges in space significanly better than those of active 
>  >sensors such as radar.
>  >
>  >http://traveller.mu.org/house/sensor.rules.html
>
> Great site, thanks.  But using this it looks like mines are right out.  I 
> wish it were so easy to detect incoming asteroids and meteors in RL.

It *is*. Bruce based the figures on *real world* sensors.

The trick is that being above the atmosphere makes a *big* difference.

Currently we have three sorts of sensors available for that. 

1. large area sensors under an atmosphere.
2. Small area wide-field sensors in satellites. 
3. larger area narrow field sensors in a couple of satellites

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:27:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:27:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Firearms in Vacumn
In-Reply-To: <3D4BD8C7.43D0D0AA@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20809.030247.9k4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> 
>>
>> >>
>> >> Do you still have any copies of The Model Rocketeer? Mine got lost a
>> >> long time ago :-(
>> >
>> > I think so, I'll have a look next time I'm cleaning that part of the 
> garage.
>> > Anything in particular
>> > or do you want that article on underwater launches?
>> 
>> Well, I'd like to have a set of the silly things, or at least a decent
>> scan of them.
>> 
>
> Leonard, I don't mind scanning a few articles, but we're talking YEARS of 
> issues(14 IIRC). I don't
> have the time to scan them all, nor the inclination to give them up. I will 
> however look for that
> article.

Don't bother. That one I remember, and it doesn't have that much of
interest to me. 

It's all the stuff I *don't* recall that I miss. Some nice technical
articles, some songs, all sorts of other stuff that I probably don't
recall right now.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:27:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:27:54 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <E17bJb8-0007Wi-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20809.031047.1I2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>
>> In mail you write:
>> 
>>> Time-Travel is a huge no-no. Do I have something against it? Yes and
>>> no. It's entertaining and fascinating to speculate on, but it would
>>> seriously unbalance a campaign. I also like the idea that
>>> consequences of one's actions are irreversable...Time Travel far too
>>> often gives one an out to correct mistakes.
>> 
>> Well, the theoretical work that physicists have done on the
>> possibility of time travel in the real world says that two things will
>> be true if it's possible:
>> 
>> 1. You can't travel back before the instant the machione is first
>>    activated.
>> 
>> 2. You can't alter the past. You'd have free will to the exact extent
>>    that you *don't* know what happened. 
>
> Actually, from what I've read, those are only true *if* causality is 
> always preserved.  If it is possible to utterly toss causality out the 
> window, then time travel can involve whatever you want.  It's 
> interesting to me that preservation of causality seems something 
> almost all phyicists assume to be true w/o having any absolute 
> necessity that the world actually operates this way.  We haven't 
> seen any obvious causality violations, but until last century we also 
> never saw any obvious relativistic effects.  Personally, I think the 
> universe would be a considerably more interesting (in all possible 
> meanings of this word) place is causality is not strictly preserved.

Actuallity, there are two kinds of causality. If local causality is
preserved, then time travel isn't possible at all.

If *local* causality isn't preserved, but global causality is, then you
get the situation I described.

If global causality isn't preserved, then you can have effects without
causes and a number of other things. And they basicly make hash of the
very *idea* of there being natural laws. Which is why scientists are so
reluctant to accept causality violations. 

Causality is *very* basic. 

ps. What I described *also* requires that relativity hold. 

You can have any two out of the following three:

local causality
relativity
FTL

If relativity holds, FTL *is* time travel.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Lawyers should look into this...
Message-ID: <200208091057.MJX01100@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Christian K" says
>Actually a Suppressor works by slowing bullets under 
>soundspeed so they don't break the soundbarrier.

Only in certain weapons.  In rifles, they only reduce the 
apparent sound of the weapon itself (reducing or altering the 
gas expansion sound impulse).  The bullet itself is not 
intended to be reduced in velocity.

The quietest weapons are designed with a subsonic round 
(ideally, a bullet that is just below the speed of sound).  
But they have the shortest range.

>And since laser are Loud as Hell

I've heard an Avco industrial laser in operation - the only 
sound was the power conditioning - I didn't hear any sound 
from the beam.

________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:59:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:59:28 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <20809.031047.1I2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <E17bJb8-0007Wi-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3D54490D.22627.620186C@localhost>

On 9 Aug 2002, at 3:10, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> You can have any two out of the following three:

> local causality
> relativity
> FTL

> If relativity holds, FTL *is* time travel.

Try this for an interesting take on things

http://www.discover.com/june_02/featuniverse.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:59:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:59:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: COMET BUSTERS
Message-ID: <200208091058.MJX01143@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Jeff Zeitlin <editor@freelancetraveller.com>  
>I sent you email requesting a real name to attach to Comet 
>Busters...


I think this is for someone else...
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 05:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 04:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
Message-ID: <200208091101.MJX01284@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson
>Causality is *very* basic. 


Wheeler has shown that there is no proof that causality is a 
requirement of this universe as a basic law.  It makes a nice 
thought, but by no means is it a requirement.

The two-slit experiment, played out over interstellar 
distances, or even across a tabletop in a lab, was shown in 
1987 to indicate that causality is violated on a regular 
basis.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 05:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 04:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Stripmime
In-Reply-To: <B97873B1.69033%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20809.034100.0C2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Someone on the TML kindly modified Stripmime to allow messages without a
> content type to get posted on the list (A fix for Leonard).  If that person
> still has a copy, could they please contact me.  I've lost the original that
> you sent me.

If it runs on Intel family CPUs under DOS, Windoze, or OS/2, I'd be
interested in a copy..

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 05:34:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 04:34:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Professor Barker??
In-Reply-To: <000601c23c02$0d81b280$08984c51@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <20809.042448.8M6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>>Depart now and you forever separate
>>>yourselves from the vital gaming legacies of James Dunnigan,
>>>Steve Jackson, Gary Gygax, Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank
>>>Chadwick, Andrew Keith, William Keith, John Harshman,
>>>Professor Barker, and Richard Tucholka.
>>
>>Professor Barker {?} info please.
>>
>>Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
>
> Empire of the Petal Throne!
>
> It was a early D&D derivative by the above mentioned prof.
>
> It had a very oriental feel with him having a background in linguistics (and
> it counted as sci-fi due to the strange background history... Humans and
> other aliens try to terraform a planet, much to the anoyance of it
> inhabitants, entire solar system disappears into a void, leaving everybody
> up the creak, a few thousand years regression (theres no iron on planet!)
> and alternate cultural development  later and enter the PCs.
>
> It spawn numerous expansions, and two  novels bu M.A.R. Barker himself.
>
> Major prob with this world? pronouncing the words! He did a Tolkien and
> created his own languages and scripts.

There are fonts available for the main alphabet (Ev-something), and
there's even unicode space reserved for it.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 05:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Aug  9 04:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <200208091101.MJX01284@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D5452F6.32566.646D18B@localhost>

On 9 Aug 2002, at 7:01, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Leonard Erickson
> >Causality is *very* basic. 

> Wheeler has shown that there is no proof that causality is a 
> requirement of this universe as a basic law.  It makes a nice 
> thought, but by no means is it a requirement.

Not quite. If I understand Wheeler correctly, causality is not violated as 
such (cause still precedes effect). Its just cause is not determined until the 
effect is observed.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 05:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christian K)
Date: Fri Aug  9 04:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lawyers should look into this...
References: <200208091057.MJX01100@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <006601c23f9b$9abfb150$0664a8c0@bigdarkone>

From: "John T. Kwon"
> Only in certain weapons.  In rifles, they only reduce the
> apparent sound of the weapon itself (reducing or altering the
> gas expansion sound impulse).  The bullet itself is not
> intended to be reduced in velocity.
You're absolutely right there my mistake i didn't make clear that it only
applys to certain weapons.


<snip>
> >And since laser are Loud as Hell
>
> I've heard an Avco industrial laser in operation - the only
> sound was the power conditioning - I didn't hear any sound
> from the beam.
Well ok sofar as my Physiks prof told me and  i did some research in it. A
High powered laser.. (not the ones used for cutting they are actually fairly
low powered in comparison) well the lasers we have in GT that is fir a
milisecond impulse off realy high power. According to what i read so far a
short recently high and hot powered lasershot would heat the air it passes
threw and in its wake even could create a vacum. The air popping back would
make a sound more like a plopp and by far nothing a bullet sounds like but
it wouldn't been the SF Film screech and it wouldn't been silent. Just some
kind off sound recently high powered laser would make more/louder sounds due
to more superheated ionized or whatever that word in english is Air.

Thats what i read so far... i could be completele wrong here since i'm not a
Physiks prof or teacher or something like that but for me it sounded
sensefull.

Chris



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 06:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Aug  9 05:18:02 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <001a01c23f4b$b6502d00$7400a8c0@matt> <20020809193011.F3949@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt>

Timothy Little wrote:
> Matthew Bond wrote:
>> However, the original post on this 'Failed World' topic was
>> regarding their prevalence in TNE.
>
> Actually, the original post was:
>   >> How serious is the trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took
> place   >> because the small island of England was not self-
> sufficient in either   >> agricultural or industrial matters, but I
> don't think this situation   >> will arise on many _planets_.
>   >
>   > cough cough
>   >        How many dinky airless rockballs with large populations do
> the world   > generation rules permit?
>
> Unless you mean this one:
>   >         I know that they won't starve. Out of curiosity, I
> decided to work out what   > might happen though.
>
> In both cases, it was purely the isolation effect that we were
> considering, not any active bombardment or aggressive forces.
>
> In particular, I am not remotely interested in any effects based on
> particular aspects of the TNE setting history.  If you want to know
> more about my opinion on that subject, search the archives.  I will
> elaborate no further.

Actually I was referring to the immediately prior post in the tread, by
Flykiller@aol.com...

[Quote]
>> How
 >> serious is the trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took place
because
 >> the small island of England was not self-sufficient in either
agricultural
 >> or industrial matters, but I don't think this situation will arise on
many
 >> _planets_.  If trade is truly a major issue and lifeline then a massed
herd
 >> of raiders will be crippling regardless of any other fleet elements
 >> employed.  But I think most planets with populations sufficient to have
 >> significant trade connections will have huge internal capacites to
produce
 >> what they need anyway, and huge reserves of whatever they have to import
 >> (consider our Strategic Oil Reserve).
 >
 >If planets are so self sufficient, then why does TNE describe planets
failing
 >because they were cut off from interstellar trade?

Don't know.  Doesn't make much sense to me.  I can see it happening here and
there of course, but not en masse.  TNE may state it, but that's not
necessarily a reason to just swallow it.
_______________________________________________

[/Quote]

This post does mention TNE.

Your arguement was that irrespective of trade all planets can (perhaps even
'must') be self sufficient. That may well be the case under normal
circumstances. In the TNE setting things were not 'normal' at the time of
the failure of these worlds.

Thats all I'm saying... given sufficient stress to the system (irrespective
of which particular Traveller setting you use), you can Fail any planet that
isn't capable of supporting life without TL9+ intervention.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 06:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Aug  9 05:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020809190909.C3949@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020808214249.025e5ec8@192.168.0.1>
 <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
 <02080313391901.00601@linux>
 <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <02080817101100.00601@linux>
 <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <m3sn1p7yq7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020808214249.025e5ec8@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020809081548.00ce0780@192.168.0.1>

At 07:09 PM 8/9/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
> > As to what they grow to get that yield, there are things that will
> >do it,
>Yes, just about anything will do it.  You don't need to resort to
>algae.

The algae came to mind quickly because it's such a complete food source, 
and easy to grow in non-ag situations.

It wasn't worth my time to dig out more complete data on the subject.
Thanks for providing it.

To sum up, the higher the tech level, the easier it will be on rockballs to 
survive independently.
Higher tech level rockballs (one that sustain their own TL C+ industry) 
will have no problems supporting large populations food wise.
Lower tech level rockballs can do it, it will take more effort, space, etc.
Easier to do if you just worry about feeding them, less so, but doable, if 
you want a diverse diet.

If you start kicking the support functions of their civilization (for what 
ever reason), they will have problems of varying degrees.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 06:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 05:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT:  December ARPC shoot
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020807104836.009f6c50@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20809.052524.8r5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 04:58 PM 8/6/02 -0700, you wrote:
>>Good to hear!  I'm desperately going to try to make it up again finally, 
>>as the financial situation has improved a little.  Providing of course 
>>that I can get a new roomate and don't have to keep paying twice the rent 
>>like I am now :(  Also, I'm going to invite Erin again, and maybe I can 
>>get my "girlfriend" to go too ;)
>
> I too, shall try to make it up.  I'll be at OryCon the week before that (as 
> Gaming GOH, if you can believe that, so unless you can give me rifde, no 
> way I can afford to fly twice in that length of time.

No, Orycon is *two* weeks before the shoot 11/22-11/24. Says so on the
form I still have to mail in!

> -- 
>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
>
> "I'm just trying to evict them. Frogs never pay."
>                              - Rose Platt
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 06:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew W. Helton)
Date: Fri Aug  9 05:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Lawyers should look into this...
In-Reply-To: <002801c23f8c$4e3199c0$0664a8c0@bigdarkone>
Message-ID: <000001c23fa4$024d9320$fd00a8c0@sulaco>

Christian,

		Muzzle suppressors do nothing to slow the projectile:
they are merely a device to cool and slow the propellant the gasses to
reduce the report.

	There are types of integral suppressors (Sten MKIIs, Sterling
MKV/L34A1, MP5SD5) which do bleed some of the high pressure gasses from
the barrel itself into the suppressor while the projectile is still in
the bore. These suppressors do not require special subsonic ammunition
in order for truly silenced shooting.

				Best,

					Matthew W. Helton


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 07:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  9 06:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Do I have to Yahoo! ?
Message-ID: <155.122f2469.2a851759@aol.com>

>Could someone tell me if it is necessary to follow these instructions to
>subscribe to The JTAS
>
>John Scarlett

John,

All you have to do is go to <http://jtas.sjgames.com/> 

and click on "Subscribe" then follow the directions.

You can look at a sample issue without subscribing if you like. 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 07:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 06:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
Message-ID: <200208091312.MKB02981@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance" says
>Not quite. If I understand Wheeler correctly, causality is 
>not violated as such (cause still precedes effect). Its just 
>cause is not determined until the effect is observed.

the problem is that the nature of the observation will force 
a photon to the left or the right - an observation that is 
taken perhaps a billion years after the photon departed. 
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 08:22:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Aug  9 07:22:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
Message-ID: <F24qs1wP7vvqgqGTwgT0000593c@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     The current Frontier Wars thread has given me an excuse to post a 
little something.  Besides, it sure beats having Finster carom rocks off my 
old grey pate (You know, for a three-year-old, that little SOB sure has a 
great arm.  He nailed me with a rock at a good 25 feet yesterday.  If he 
ever gets his hands on any firearms, we'll have to change his name to 
Ditzie.)
     To my addled mind, Zho strategy over the last 6 centuries has been 
pretty simple; deflect Imperial expansion away from the Consulate and 
stabilize the border.  After looking at the maps, even before the Zhos got 
their "make-over" from mind-rapers to well adjusted psionicists in Late CT, 
this strategy was pretty self evident.
     Oddly enough, this happened to be the Imperial strategy against the 
Alsan!
     The Consulate has been active, albeit thin on the ground, in the 
Marches for quite a long time, certainly from only a few centuries after the 
Darrians had their little "accident". (Did Tanis' odd flares, when viewed 
from a great distance, lure Zho exploration towards the Marches?)
     The Consulate's goals are two-fold; first evict the Imperium from the 
Foreven and Ziafrfplians Sectors and a portion of the Marches, then create a 
Dark Nebula-style buffer zone of small polities to act as a shield.  The 
first goal has been accompished.  The second has been only partially 
completed.
     Inserting the five Frontier Wars into this overall strategic framework 
becomes an easy task:

     First Frontier War - Eviction of Imperial colonies and elimination of 
Imperial client state relationships within Consulate territory.  A Zho 
success.
     Second Frontier War - Continued evictions.  Buffer zone begins to form. 
  A Zho success.
     Third Frontier War - Majority of the buffer zone created.  A Zho 
success.
     Fourth Frontier War - Launched prematurely by local authorities after a 
period increased tensions.  A draw.
     Fifth Frontier War -  An attempt to complete the buffer zone by 
detaching the Jewell subsector and other small slices of Imperial territory. 
  This would continue the buffer zone coreward until it contacted Vargr 
space.

     The Zho's three main offensives fit this idea neatly.  First, they "pin 
down" the Jewels.  Second, a sickle stroke through the Efate region to cut 
the Jewels off.  Third, a deep strike at Rhylanor to gain the war's supreme 
bargaining chip.
     If all had gone well, the Jewels would be slowly ground down by a 
series of planetary seiges, cutoff from the rest of the Imperium by Zho 
forces in the Efate region, and eventually abandoned by the Imperium at the 
negotiation table in return for the Zhodani evacuation of Rhylanor.
     Of course, no plan survives contact with the enemy, but the Consulate's 
hubris can be forgiven.  After all, they had won every Frontier War prior to 
the Fifth.  To paraphrase Moltke, the Consulate planned well, but didn't 
quite plan enough.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 08:24:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Aug  9 07:24:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra, Zhakirov and Antiama
References: <20020730221303.16806.79173.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001701c23fb1$0020b520$5d5d8690@computer>

Ah! I think I've worked out the real reason why I don't think that
Arbellatra was responsible for the marriage of Zhakirov and Antiama.

My objection is not so much the logical problems, which, while they exist,
can be overcome, but actually the dramatic ones.

It's kind of like having Macbeth showing up in Hamlet, and making the plot
happen. Essentially, by giving such an active role to Arbellatra, the story
of Zhakirov and Antiama is weakened.

The backstories of the OTU are, in fact, stories, and dramatic
considerations can and should be taken into account in working out "what
really happened". Where two possible courses are logically possible, the one
that makes the better story should be preferred, IMHO.

YMMV, of course.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 08:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 07:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] cause and effect
Message-ID: <200208091428.MKE00298@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

RnJvbSB0aGUgYXJ0aWNsZToNCg0KQnkgdGhlIHRpbWUgdGhlIGFzdHJvbm9tZXJzIGRlY2lk
ZSB3aGljaCBtZWFzdXJlbWVudCB0byBtYWtl4oCUIA0Kd2hldGhlciB0byBwaW4gZG93biB0
aGUgcGhvdG9uIHRvIG9uZSBkZWZpbml0ZSByb3V0ZSBvciB0byANCmhhdmUgaXQgZm9sbG93
IGJvdGggcGF0aHMgc2ltdWx0YW5lb3VzbHnigJQgdGhlIHBob3RvbiBjb3VsZCANCmhhdmUg
YWxyZWFkeSBqb3VybmV5ZWQgZm9yIGJpbGxpb25zIG9mIHllYXJzLCBsb25nIGJlZm9yZSAN
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IHRoZSANCmFzdHJvbm9tZXJzIGNyZWF0ZSBhIHBhc3QgaW4gd2hpY2ggYSBwaG90b24gdG9v
ayBib3RoIA0KcG9zc2libGUgcm91dGVzIGZyb20gdGhlIHF1YXNhciB0byBFYXJ0aC4gQWx0
ZXJuYXRpdmVseSwgdGhleSANCnJldHJvYWN0aXZlbHkgZm9yY2UgdGhlIHBob3RvbiBvbnRv
IG9uZSBzdHJhaWdodCB0cmFpbCB0b3dhcmQgDQp0aGVpciBkZXRlY3RvciwgZXZlbiB0aG91
Z2ggdGhlIHBob3RvbiBiZWdhbiBpdHMgamF1bnQgbG9uZyANCmJlZm9yZSBhbnkgZGV0ZWN0
b3JzIGV4aXN0ZWQuIA0KDQpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQpHZWUsIEkgaG9wZSBUZWQgV2ls
bGlhbXMgc2F3DQpWYW5pbGxhIFNreSBiZWZvcmUgaGUgc2lnbmVkIHRoYXQgY29udHJhY3Qu
Li4NCg==

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 09:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  9 08:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Lawyers should look into this...
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEELPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
>"Glenn M. Goffin" says
>>Where did you get your silent gauss rifle?  The bullets in
>>mine always make a boom as they break the sound barrier.

[excellent discussion deleted]

>I would be that the gauss rifle would sound like this, except
>that the sound from the firing point would be non-existent.

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>Most of the sound associated with weapons fire is the sound of the powder
>going off.  The crack of the bullet is negligible.  For example, a silenced
>.22LR is nearly silent in operation.
>
>A 4mm gauss round would make a high pitched *crack* audible only to those
>near the flight path.

That works for me.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 09:38:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  9 08:38:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra, Zhakirov and Antiama
In-Reply-To: <001701c23fb1$0020b520$5d5d8690@computer>
References: <20020730221303.16806.79173.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020809080818.009f13d0@mindspring.com>

At 12:27 AM 8/10/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Ah! I think I've worked out the real reason why I don't think that
>Arbellatra was responsible for the marriage of Zhakirov and Antiama.
>
>My objection is not so much the logical problems, which, while they exist,
>can be overcome, but actually the dramatic ones.
>
>It's kind of like having Macbeth showing up in Hamlet, and making the plot
>happen. Essentially, by giving such an active role to Arbellatra, the story
>of Zhakirov and Antiama is weakened.
>
>The backstories of the OTU are, in fact, stories, and dramatic
>considerations can and should be taken into account in working out "what
>really happened". Where two possible courses are logically possible, the one
>that makes the better story should be preferred, IMHO.

I was a bit unclear.  I meant to show that Arbellatra set the stage by 
weakening the Solomani grip on power at the court that had led to the Civil 
War in the first place.  I imagine many nobles were stripped of their 
titles, and those titles passed to others.  She also, IMTU, shook up the 
bureaucracy and made it more effective by elevating Vilani business people 
to positions of authority, complete with the appropriate titles.

Plot hook.  Admiral Arbellatra, Regent of the Imperium, has elevated a 
Vilani sector accountant to Minister of Finance, replacing a corrupt noble 
who held the position previously.  The Duke understands that if his 
dealings are examined, he'll spend the rest of his life on a TL2 exile 
world.  His only hope is to prevent the new Minister from reaching 
Capitial.  The PCs are the Marines and starmen sent to escort the new 
Minister and his family to the Regent.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 09:38:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  9 08:38:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
In-Reply-To: <F24qs1wP7vvqgqGTwgT0000593c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020809081646.009f77c0@mindspring.com>

At 02:21 PM 8/9/02 +0000, you wrote:

My dear Whipsnade..

>     The current Frontier Wars thread has given me an excuse to post a 
> little something.  Besides, it sure beats having Finster carom rocks off 
> my old grey pate (You know, for a three-year-old, that little SOB sure 
> has a great arm.  He nailed me with a rock at a good 25 feet 
> yesterday.  If he ever gets his hands on any firearms, we'll have to 
> change his name to Ditzie.)

I suggest constant suggestions that the young hellion requires an immediate 
bath.  The word bath sets of such a primal flight response in small 
children that I'm covinced that at the dawn of mankind we were hunted by 
some horror whose call was "bath!  baatthh!"  Young Finster  shall spend 
the remainder of the occupation hiding behind the couch, surviving on dust 
bunnies and old hard candies.

>     To my addled mind, Zho strategy over the last 6 centuries has been 
> pretty simple; deflect Imperial expansion away from the Consulate and 
> stabilize the border.  After looking at the maps, even before the Zhos 
> got their "make-over" from mind-rapers to well adjusted psionicists in 
> Late CT, this strategy was pretty self evident.
>     Oddly enough, this happened to be the Imperial strategy against the 
> Alsan!

Good eye!  This is very true of the later ABWs.

>     The Consulate has been active, albeit thin on the ground, in the 
> Marches for quite a long time, certainly from only a few centuries after 
> the Darrians had their little "accident". (Did Tanis' odd flares, when 
> viewed from a great distance, lure Zho exploration towards the Marches?)
>     The Consulate's goals are two-fold; first evict the Imperium from the 
> Foreven and Ziafrfplians Sectors and a portion of the Marches, then 
> create a Dark Nebula-style buffer zone of small polities to act as a 
> shield.  The first goal has been accompished.  The second has been only 
> partially completed.

But can be considered a success.  There have been no Imperial attempts to 
establish colonies in Zhodani space for 700 years.

>     Fifth Frontier War -  An attempt to complete the buffer zone by 
> detaching the Jewell subsector and other small slices of Imperial 
> territory.  This would continue the buffer zone coreward until it 
> contacted Vargr space.
>
>     The Zho's three main offensives fit this idea neatly.  First, they 
> "pin down" the Jewels.  Second, a sickle stroke through the Efate region 
> to cut the Jewels off.  Third, a deep strike at Rhylanor to gain the 
> war's supreme bargaining chip.
>     If all had gone well, the Jewels would be slowly ground down by a 
> series of planetary seiges, cutoff from the rest of the Imperium by Zho 
> forces in the Efate region, and eventually abandoned by the Imperium at 
> the negotiation table in return for the Zhodani evacuation of Rhylanor.
>     Of course, no plan survives contact with the enemy, but the 
> Consulate's hubris can be forgiven.  After all, they had won every 
> Frontier War prior to the Fifth.  To paraphrase Moltke, the Consulate 
> planned well, but didn't quite plan enough.

The also ran into a wild card: Norris.  You can't predict an unexpected 
enemy commander that is a bloody genius and has figured out your plan.  I 
always wondered if Norris' branch of Naval Intelligence hadn't actually 
learned bits and pieces of the Zhodani plan.

The Zho's over-reached themselves, in my opinion.  They didn't properly 
understand the strength of the Imperium's "defense in depth" concept, nor 
the tenacity of local forces.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 09:39:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  9 08:39:04 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Lawyers should look into this...
In-Reply-To: <200208090248.MJH00974@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020809082853.009ea2a0@mindspring.com>

At 10:48 PM 8/8/02 -0400, you wrote:
>"Glenn M. Goffin" says
> >Where did you get your silent gauss rifle?  The bullets in
> >mine always make a boom as they break the sound barrier.
>
>Actually, I've fired quite a few rifle rounds with a
>suppressor - the crack is noticeable - but depending on where
>you are downrange, it may be impossible to localize the
>source of the firing.  The crack is heard as the round passes
>you by - if the round misses far to the right of you, you
>will hear the sound to your right, even if the shooter is
>nowhere to the right.

The sound made by a round passing close by is sort of a "thwip"  You only 
hear it when it is close to you, so when crawling through razor-wire at Ft. 
Benning, the 7.62mm rounds being fired above your head sound *damn* 
close.  The loudest sound by far is the weapon itself.

>I would be that the gauss rifle would sound like this, except
>that the sound from the firing point would be non-existent.

*thwip*thwip*thwip*thwip*thwip*thwip*thwip*


-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Animals who are not penguins can only wish they were.
                          -Chicago reader, 10/15/82



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 09:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  9 08:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Arbellatra
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMELPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
>
>As a matter of fact, I am unconvinced that the modern
>`generalist-to-18' model is long for this world.  I think that as
[deletion]
> It's rapidly becoming apparent that four years of college are
>not enough; master's or doctoral work is necessary to truly _grok_ a
>subject (and I write this as one without a master's or a doctorate).
>
>The only workable solution, given that children of an early age are
>not properly testable, is a system of like-father-like-son.  Which,
>fortunately enough, ties into mankind's proclivities enough that it'll
>probably work out nicely enough.

Like-father-like-son destroyed the Roman empire, but that doesn't mean we
won't see it again.  I think that the vast majority of people will always be
generalists, because most of human life requires a general knowledge of how
to do things.  There may very well be some elites that develop a
generational focus on extremely complex subjects, but not everyone by a long
shot.

That's probably what the seneschal class does, and we've never yet had a
character generation system for the seneschal -- probably because there are
no retired seneschals to go adventuring.  They are born into the class,
study all their lives to synthesize, abstract, and communicate vast
quantities of information, and do exactly that until they contract
Alzheimer's and are debriefed in nursing homes.

--Glenn

"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher
a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts,
build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders,
cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure,
program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently and die gallantly.
Specialization is for insects."

-- Robert A. Heinlein


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 09:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  9 08:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEMACEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>
>     The current Frontier Wars thread has given me an excuse to post a
>little something.  Besides, it sure beats having Finster carom rocks off my

[excellent analysis deleted]
>
  >  Fifth Frontier War -  An attempt to complete the buffer zone by
>detaching the Jewell subsector and other small slices of Imperial
territory.
>  This would continue the buffer zone coreward until it contacted Vargr
>space.
>
>     The Zho's three main offensives fit this idea neatly.  First, they
"pin
>down" the Jewels.  Second, a sickle stroke through the Efate region to cut
>the Jewels off.  Third, a deep strike at Rhylanor to gain the war's supreme
>bargaining chip.
>     If all had gone well, the Jewels would be slowly ground down by a
>series of planetary seiges, cutoff from the rest of the Imperium by Zho
>forces in the Efate region, and eventually abandoned by the Imperium at the
>negotiation table in return for the Zhodani evacuation of Rhylanor.

Dear Mr. Whipsnade:

I heartily endorse your basic analysis, which must be further evidence for
the common belief that great minds think alike -- er, I mean, that Traveller
players need to get a life -- no wait a bit...

Anyway, if the boardgame of Fifth Frontier War is a good simulation, it is
almost impossible for the Imperial player to avoid losing the Jewells in a
few turns.  The Zhodani player has enough resources to overwhelm the Jewells
and still take the 300 points needed to achieve an automatic victory (not
that it's easy, but it's doable).

So the Jewells would not have to be ground down by planetary sieges.  Jewell
itself is always a battle, but the Mongo National Guard will flee in terror
after some bombing, and Esalin, Emerald, and Ruby have no defense forces to
speak of (those TL 8 motorized infantry on Esalin are more terrified that
the MNG, but can't flee as fast).  Lysen and Grant likewise need only to be
occupied.

One Zhodani fleet should go directly to Jewell for a major space and ground
fight.  Two smaller fleets should take the rest of the cluster (one takes
Emerald and Ruby, the other Mongo and Esalin), then move on to Grant and
Lysen, then head for Regina (which is pretty easy to take).  Phase one is
complete.  Begin processing the captives!

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 10:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 09:28:03 2002
Subject: Growing Food (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization)
In-Reply-To: <E17d5nW-0004bi-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028910449.6838.ajackson@ping>

sneadj@mindspring.com writes:
 
> Lots of stuff.  Soybeans, rice, and various greens and root veggies 
> should work at that size.

Actually, 2.5 acres per person (250 people per square mile) is only a little
over the upper limit of medieval agriculture, assuming 100% arable land (which
is, obviously, a bit unrealistic).  As such, it's really not a challenge for
any TL 5+ world.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 11:09:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug  9 10:09:06 2002
Subject: [TML] test, ignore
Message-ID: <B9794537.690D6%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

This is a test of mime stripping
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 11:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug  9 10:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] test 2, ignore
Message-ID: <B9794A6F.690DF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Another test of MIME stripping
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 11:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug  9 10:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] test3, ignore
Message-ID: <B9794AF5.690E3%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Final MIME test
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 11:50:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Aug  9 10:50:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Macene Landgrab
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHIEMIILAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Little things cast big ripples; in BTC map, Macene is listed as
Depot, and in the description it is listed as the site of the
Spinward Branch of the Fleet Tactics College.  I read this and
the little guy with the pitchfork and the little guy with the
halo who sit on my shoulder started jumping up and down chortling
maniacally.

If someone wants to grab these and post 'em, go ahead


Macene

Macene is still under development and will be for decades but
stands to become Depot Spinward Marches. It is built and sited to
command the flank of any would be Zhodane, Sword Worlds, or Vagyr
incursion into Imperial space; provide, along with Rhylanor, a middle
tier main base between the frontline worlds of Regina and Lanth
and the rear hugging worlds of Aramis and Mara; and force attention
and dilution of effort on itself by any would be attackers.

Currently Macene is home to 9400 Navy personnel and their dependants, not
ship's crews to assigned ships, and the 10041 Engineering Wing who as
members of assigned military combat units are not counted in the population
totals.  By the end of the Holiday year as facilities go on line this
number will grow to 60,000 personnel and their dependants.  In addition, a
Marine Division and various assigned ships will swell this number.

Current plans will be to form Kokirrak Class dreadnaughts, One Demi
Batron from Rhylanor and one from Mora  will be joined to serve
as the core of the assigned fleet.

Planetoid monitors and Brilliant Pebble monitors will form the heart of
the fleet level defenses of the base, freeing mobile elements to counter
attack against enemy fleets
Current facilities

Amber Nine

Amber Nine is the current designation of the current center of operations
for the Navy at Macene.  It houses the SMFTC, the administrative command
for the entire system, housing and quarters for staff, port facilities for
the systems defense fleet.  It, like Frog Two is located within the 100 D
limit of Macene's star. It is scheduled to be officially named Arabella
Base Naval complex during the Holiday year celebrations.

Frog Two

Located opposite from Amber Nine, Frog Two is the headquarters for the
Op force and serves as a listening post and base against any attacks
from the opposite side.

Mnor Quad, Maor Delt

Maor quad is located above the North pole of the star and delt is above the
South pole, they serve as relayy stations

Fargo Station

Fargo Station is the original settlement of Macene,  Currently it is HQ
for the 10041 Fleet Engineering wing which is responsible for all
construction
in system.  Fargo station is also the current location for Civilian
refueling
and other amenities.

Facilities nearing completion

These are scheduled to go on line by the end of the holiday year

Amber Six: scheduled to be fitted as a Fleet command HQ.  A Marine division
will also be headquartered here and will serve as ground defense
for the entire complex

Amber One:  will being equipped for family residences and Visiting officer
quarters.

Amber Nine will have it's berthing capacity upgraded to 200,000 dton
ships and will be able to perform routine maintenance on ships

Maor Delt will be upgraded to a Squadron base.

Maor Delt will be upgrade to a fleet level communication nexus and will
support
a communications squadron.

Fargo Station will be upgraded to refit, repair, and replace Jump drive
components.

Fargo Station will assume command of deep meson emplacements guarding
Gas Giant "Pell below".

Timohee RedJack Station:  Named after Olav-Plankwell's Flag Captain, this
is planned to take over as the entry point for all non official traffic.
It will offer fuel at standard prices, and will have a commercial mall
for the families and residents of Macene command.

Diltin One: Dilitin commanded Arabella's Supply efforts, both during the war
and on her march on the Core.  The Diltin is designed to keep Depot supplied
and support it offensive actions.  It will originally be a warehousing
operation, but over time will grew to include greenhouses, carniculture, and
live food production, along with recycling and manufacturing plants.

Frog Seven:  Is scheduled to augment the facilities of Frog Two and serve as
the
site for the Spinward arm of the fleet gunnery school.  Meson gunnery is the
first school scheduled for completion

Mid term activation (three to ten years)

Dlitin Three:  A planned Headquarters and warehouse facility for Sector
fleet
maintainance.

Amber Seven:  first class to start Spinward Marches Depot Academy


________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 12:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri Aug  9 11:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : OK, Now What?
In-Reply-To: <000801c23de9$3cfa8300$c69c67cb@robert>
References: <000801c23de9$3cfa8300$c69c67cb@robert>
Message-ID: <p04330103b979b556d090@[143.232.119.186]>

At 6:05 PM +1000 8/7/02, Robert O'Connor wrote:
>John Kwon wrote:-
>>  First I keep reading that plasma weapons are not possible -
>>  the bolt would dissipate a short distance from the barrel. 
><snip>
>
>One potential problem was with dissipation, the other with
>the ridiculous energies required (there's a good line in 'Guns, Guns,
>Guns'
>comparing PGMP-like weapons to Bangalore torpedoes...)

My understanding of the argument is that plasma guns are what 
thermodynamics call heat engines.  Thermo requires (even at maximum 
possible efficiency) that energies comparble to the shot fired get 
released by the gun.  So how do you shoot w/out doing as much damage 
to the gun (or your hand).
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 12:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 11:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D53003A.1070102@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020809190742.B3949@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3D540E41.1040509@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Timothy Little wrote:
> Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
>>You can't compare these, and which model is correct depends on which
>>rule set you use.
> 
> 
> Isn't this a bit deplorable, considering that they're all meant to be
> describing the same universe?

Actually, they're not.

Each set of rules is indeed a different universe.

Hard Times describes the MT Late Rebellion universe. GT:FT describes the 
steady state 'Strephon walks out of the shower' universe. WBH describes 
an early rebellion/CT universe.

The fact that they all share remarkable similarities in background story 
is mere coincidence ;-)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 12:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Fri Aug  9 11:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020809081646.009f77c0@mindspring.com>
References: <F24qs1wP7vvqgqGTwgT0000593c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020809135406.00a8fe50@minn.net>

At 08:27 AM 8/9/2002 -0700, The Lord of the Penguins wrote:

>The also ran into a wild card: Norris.  You can't predict an unexpected 
>enemy commander that is a bloody genius and has figured out your plan.  I 
>always wondered if Norris' branch of Naval Intelligence hadn't actually 
>learned bits and pieces of the Zhodani plan.
>
>The Zho's over-reached themselves, in my opinion.  They didn't properly 
>understand the strength of the Imperium's "defense in depth" concept, nor 
>the tenacity of local forces.

The answer in my view is simple. 

Spy on the allies. I'm using the NAVINT operations in the Vargr Extents as
part of the background of my serial fiction project. (I'm up to the end of
page two in part five of FiHP.)


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 13:36:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Aug  9 12:36:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Lawyers should look into this...
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D96@USCHM203>

>Douglas Berry wrote:

>The sound made by a round passing close by is sort of a "thwip"  You only 
>hear it when it is close to you, so when crawling through razor-wire at Ft.

>Benning, the 7.62mm rounds being fired above your head sound *damn* 
>close.  The loudest sound by far is the weapon itself.

I remember working the targets at Parris Island. There was very little sound
to the .223 M16 rounds passing overhead---the snap of the rounds passing
through the target was louder. You could tell a complete miss, though.
I agree that the sound would probably only be audible to someone close to
the round's path, and be difficult to tell where it came from.

I read somewhere that snipers like to have a pole, large tree, or other
object very close to their line of site. The bullet passing by makes it
sound as if the shot has been fired from the direction of the object...
I'm sure someone else can explain the why and how of this better.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 13:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  9 12:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMELPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020809124501.009f0490@mindspring.com>

At 08:41 AM 8/9/02 -0700, you wrote:
>That's probably what the seneschal class does, and we've never yet had a
>character generation system for the seneschal -- probably because there are
>no retired seneschals to go adventuring.  They are born into the class,
>study all their lives to synthesize, abstract, and communicate vast
>quantities of information, and do exactly that until they contract
>Alzheimer's and are debriefed in nursing homes.

It would make for an interesting template.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 13:49:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  9 12:49:32 2002
Subject: [TML] test, ignore
In-Reply-To: <B9794537.690D6%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020809124700.009f1ec0@mindspring.com>

At 10:08 AM 8/9/02 -0700, you wrote:
>This is a test of mime stripping

Isn't that when you steal Marcel Marceau's hubcaps?

I mean, how is he going to call the cops and report it?


-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is
that I am now a perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague
here is rapidly running out of limbs!"
   - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 13:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (markc@peak.org)
Date: Fri Aug  9 12:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
Message-ID: <232810-22002859195212613@M2W075.mail2web.com>

Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring=2Ecom> writes:

>Most of the sound associated with weapons fire is the sound of the powder=

>going off=2E  The crack of the bullet is negligible=2E  For example, a si=
lenced
>=2E22LR is nearly silent in operation=2E

Oh, come on, Doug=2E  You and I both know they're louder than that=2E
While you certainly don't need hearing protection around one, they
sound about like a large balloon being popped=2E  Even in an open
outdoor area, I can hear one fire over 50 yds=2E away=2E  Now, if
subsonic ammo is being used, it's a whole different story=2E

>A 4mm gauss round would make a high pitched *crack* audible only to
> those near the flight path=2E

With "near" probably meaning within 200 meters=2E  (This assumes a
calm, clear day, across level terrain and with no significant
background noise to mask the shot=2E)

    - Mark C=2E



--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 13:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Fri Aug  9 12:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] 100 ton scout ship?
In-Reply-To: <20020809030206.EC91C2793F@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020809195517.52468.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com>

I think I may have seen one of these. I saw a triangle
of lights one night,flying slowly across the sky.
However, the ship I saw appeared to be at a high
altitude. Not flying low like in the article.I
couldn't hear any engine noise so I thought it must be
very high up. If it was that high up, it had to be
enormous. Football feild would be a "conservative"
estimate. Even if it was flying low it would still be
huge. 

--- Eris Reddoch <erisred@telocity.com> wrote:
> On 08/08/02 at 03:08 PM,  Bruce Johnson
> <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
> said:
> 
> >Thing wrote:
> 
> > > 
>
>http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/black_triangle_020805.htm


=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 14:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Fri Aug  9 13:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <20809.011127.5m5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020809200101.53142.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com>

I have one reservation, I know that if I were awakened
from low berth sleep, most likely, it will be because
a substantial portion of the crew got killed, in which
case, the ship probably isn't in such great fighting
shape either. My first thought upon awakening would be
"Oh $#!+"

--- Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> wrote:
> In mail you write:
> 
> > It seemed a good deal.  You aren't first into
> battle (you aren't any 
> > more likely to get killed since the unfrozen guys
> get killed first) 
> > and you don't have to deal with boredom between
> battles.  Odds are 
> > you sign up, get frozen, and wake up with all your
> pay waiting for 
> > you.
> 
> Unless you missed the clause in the contract that
> calculates your
> "term" by the time you spend *thawed*. Mind you,
> it's legal, because
> you *do* get paid for the frozen time, though at a
> lower rate.
> 
> -- 
> Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 14:03:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 13:03:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : OK, Now What?
In-Reply-To: <p04330103b979b556d090@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028923378.5627.ajackson@ping>

David P. Summers writes:

> My understanding of the argument is that plasma guns are what 
> thermodynamics call heat engines.  Thermo requires (even at maximum 
> possible efficiency) that energies comparble to the shot fired get 
> released by the gun.  So how do you shoot w/out doing as much damage 
> to the gun (or your hand).

Huh?  I'm not sure in what way a plasma gun is a heat engine, and in any case
energies comparable to the shot do get released by the gun (travelling, not
surprisingly, out the muzzle).  The problem with a plasma gun is that you're
firing a bullet made out of ionized gas, and the normal expected behavior of
such a 'bullet' on contacting any sort of atmosphere is to spread out.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 15:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 14:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] test, ignore
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020809124700.009f1ec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3D542FEB.20406@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Douglas Berry wrote:
> At 10:08 AM 8/9/02 -0700, you wrote:
> 
>> This is a test of mime stripping
> 
> 
> Isn't that when you steal Marcel Marceau's hubcaps?
> 
> I mean, how is he going to call the cops and report it?
> 
> 
No no Email first, then we'll stripmime the rest of the Internet!

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 15:12:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 14:12:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
Message-ID: <200208092111.MKR04077@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"markc" says
>Oh, come on, Doug.  You and I both know they're louder than 
>that.

I carried an MP5SD5 for a while.  At the range, when you 
fired it, the sound of the bolt cycling seemed to dominate 
the sound picture, at least from the point of view of the 
person firing the weapon.

From any angle, however, it's unmistakable that someone is 
operating a weapon.

On a side note, I used to call the M-16 (without a 
suppressor) the Orville Redenbacher, because at a distance, 
it sounds like popcorn in the microwave.  Never really 
sounded like a real weapon to me.

I can't imagine lasers making any noise at all, unless you 
hit someone.  And if they aren't in the visible light range 
(ideal transmission is apparently in the near infrared for 
work in Earth's atmosphere), you won't see the near miss 
either.

________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 15:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 14:35:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
In-Reply-To: <200208092111.MKR04077@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028928845.7419.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> "markc" says
> >Oh, come on, Doug.  You and I both know they're louder than 
> >that.
> 
> I carried an MP5SD5 for a while.  At the range, when you 
> fired it, the sound of the bolt cycling seemed to dominate 
> the sound picture, at least from the point of view of the 
> person firing the weapon.

This could, of course, be related to the fact that a sonic boom can only be
heard to the sides of the moving object.

> I can't imagine lasers making any noise at all, unless you 
> hit someone.  And if they aren't in the visible light range 
> (ideal transmission is apparently in the near infrared for 
> work in Earth's atmosphere), you won't see the near miss 
> either.

I doubt that; I suspect most weapons lasers are IR because chemical lasers have
a tendency to be IR lasers.  For focusing reasons you probably want a
blue-green laser, since it will require a lens about half the diameter (1/4 the
area) of a near IR laser.

In any case, a weapons laser designed for shooting at people will be visible if
there's any dust in the atmosphere; the laser will vaporize the dust (which
will release some light) and many forms of dust will then burn (producing more
light).  Probably quite hard to see during the day, but visible enough at
night.

An X-ray laser, of course, would work differently.  X-rays don't go very far in
atmosphere, but using the standard 0.1A X-ray lasers in FF&S, you can simply
create a very small lens and fire a pulsed beam, tunneling through the
atmosphere.  This isn't terribly efficient (at an estimate, it takes somewhere
between 100 and 1000 meters atmosphere to provide as much armor as a centimeter
of steel), but it's rather unaffected by most forms of obscurement, and would
be extremely visible to observers.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 16:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  9 15:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020809093112.3480.46413.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17dHmw-0002cx-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>

> I'm actually rather surprised: my original estimate was based on just
> eyeballing Tasmania's map and guessing how much of it feeds Tasmania's
> population.  It looks like my original estimate of 1 hectare per
> person was grossly high.  Based on these firmer and more authoritative
> figures, 0.2 hectares per person should suffice.

That's fascinating having last looking into all this about a decade 
ago I wrote my post on this topic w/o rechecking my data.  I got 
the numbers correct, but my memory managed to move a decimal 
place (0.1 hectares/person will barely work if you don't grow dairy 
or meat other than carp).  Man, I hate forgetting data, the faster 
someone discovers a way to upgrade ourselves the better.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com  


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 16:00:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  9 15:00:31 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <20020809142203.8049.65097.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17dHmz-0002cx-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:

> If global causality isn't preserved, then you can have effects without
> causes and a number of other things. And they basicly make hash of the
> very *idea* of there being natural laws. Which is why scientists are
> so reluctant to accept causality violations. 
> 
> Causality is *very* basic. 

Very true, but I still find is fascinating that the primary arguement 
that global causality must hold is aesthetic.  I'm not saying is 
doesn't hold, merely that the reasoning is interesting.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 16:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Fri Aug  9 15:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Do I have to Yahoo! ?
References: <177.cae8ad7.2a847ccf@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001201c23ff0$e1e6dea0$45cad63f@customer>

Thanks Jon.  I had already subcribed when I recieved the e-mail.  I =
guess that's why it was sent to me.  My addled brain thought I had to =
join the group to confirm my subcription.  Your e-mail clears things up =
for me. Thanks again

PS aurichtech got the free month, he was the 'fastest with the mostest'. =
 Besides I have support our boy in uniform.

John Scarlett
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: JFZeigler@aol.com=20
  To: tml@travellercentral.com=20
  Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 10:02 PM
  Subject: Re: [TML] Do I have to Yahoo! ?


  > Could someone tell me if it is necessary to follow these =
instructions to=20
  > subscribe to The JTAS.=20

  Hmmm.=20

  The JTAS group on Yahoo! is mostly just for announcements of new=20
  content in the real Journal of the Traveller's Aid Society. I've never =
seen=20
  it used for anything else.=20

  If you want to subscribe to JTAS itself - the actual webzine currently =

  run by Steve Jackson Games - you can go to http://jtas.sjgames.com/ .=20
  There are samples of content that you can look at before deciding=20
  whether you want to subscribe or not, and I believe you can actually=20
  subscribe using a link from that page.=20

  Enjoy.=20

  ----------=20
  Jon F. Zeigler=20
  Line Editor, GURPS Traveller=20
  jon@sjgames.com=20
  "The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."=20


--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/html
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 16:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri Aug  9 15:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How many Xboats...
In-Reply-To: <200208081636.MIN00707@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208081636.MIN00707@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <p04330105b979f034adc9@[143.232.119.186]>

At 12:36 PM -0400 8/8/02, John T. Kwon wrote:
>Roseberry asks
>>How many Xboats/Xboat tenders does one need to maintain a
>>single Xboat Route?
>
>I want to know how often X-boats leave and arrive.  If the
>boats leave on the hour

Given the 7 week time it will take the message to get there, on the 
hour seems excessive.  I would guess once a day (or less).
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 16:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Fri Aug  9 15:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] test, ignore
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020809124700.009f1ec0@mindspring.com>
References: <B9794537.690D6%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020809124700.009f1ec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020810004328.34283a79.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Listmom wrote:
> This is a test of mime stripping

I get really odd and really naughty images in my head when you say that...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 16:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Aug  9 15:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra, Zhakirov and Antiama
References: <20020809190005.13683.7858.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001201c23ff7$843c1fc0$0f5d8690@computer>

> From: Douglas Berry
> I was a bit unclear.  I meant to show that Arbellatra set the stage by
> weakening the Solomani grip on power at the court that had led to the
Civil
> War in the first place.  I imagine many nobles were stripped of their
> titles, and those titles passed to others.  She also, IMTU, shook up the
> bureaucracy and made it more effective by elevating Vilani business people
> to positions of authority, complete with the appropriate titles.

Fair enough. I guess the main thing is that compatibility with existing
canon is maintained.

I just had a look in Rim of Fire. It handles the issue very well. I would go
with their account.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 17:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 16:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
In-Reply-To: <m37kj6jfye.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20809.152101.5u4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com> writes:
>> 
>> So does SPAM survive the Rule of Man, the Long Night and into the
>> Third Imperium?
>
> It no longer is manufactures, but reserves of SPAM still exist.  The
> stuff lasts forever, you know...

Along with Velveeta ("The Food That Will Not Die" or some such according
to "Doon")

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 17:04:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 16:04:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Movies
In-Reply-To: <20020804135041.73249.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20809.152543.5e8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> OT: has anyone ever concerned the proximity of ships
> to each other in close orbit and planetary
> bombardment?  How close is too close?  Does a fleet
> turn the night sky bright with the multitude of
> invading ships?

Between the velocities involved and the weapon energies, ships should
be spaced *miles* apart. A "tight formation" is one where you can see
the other ships. 

The sort of formations shown in most TV shows and movies is workable
only for "parking orbits" (and not *too* workable there, as during the
course of an orbit the relative distances will change *considerably*)
or for the equivalent of Blue Angels type close formation stunt flying.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 19:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 18:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hey, wait a minute...
Message-ID: <200208100107.MKZ01680@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

The Sword Worlds had their first interstellar government, the 
Sacnoth Dominate, in -186, and lasting to -102, when 
rebellion broke it up.

Garda-Vilis is supposedly settled in -121 as Tanoose.

I am presuming that Vilis itself is settled before -121.

Would it be presumptuous to assume that Vilis itself was a 
colonization project put up prior to the ascendancy of the 
Sacnoth Dominate, but too far away for the Dominate to 
effectively rule?
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 19:08:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug  9 18:08:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
In-Reply-To: <232810-22002859195212613@M2W075.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <B979B575.6914A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/9/02 12:52 PM, markc@peak.org at markc@peak.org wrote:
>=20
>> A 4mm gauss round would make a high pitched *crack* audible only to
>> those near the flight path.
>=20
> With "near" probably meaning within 200 meters.  (This assumes a
> calm, clear day, across level terrain and with no significant
> background noise to mask the shot.)

Having just been shooting a suppressed M-16 less than a week ago, I can say
that even though it is quite comfortable to shoot without hearing
protection, there is a definite crack that is audible for quite some
distance.  It is, in fact, quite loud, just not painfully.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 19:19:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 18:19:07 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <20809.024856.2h6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <011801c23adc$bdd0f780$1d17bd50@martinjd> <20809.024856.2h6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020810111729.A5883@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Basicly, a nuke that is being used to convery something (styrofoam
> works!) into a plasma to push a bunch of projectiles.

You can even get pretty close to modelling this in GURPS Vehicles :)

Under Orion drives, it gives a formula for total impulse per kiloton
of thrust bomb.  Because the 'Vehicle' doesn't need to remain intact,
you can divide mass of pusher structure by a lot, say 1000.

So, you might model it as a missile with one-shot Orion propulsion and
a beehive warhead.  Unfortunately, Vehicles assigns far more total
damage to each projectile of a multiple-projectile round than is
reasonable.  In particular, every one of thousands of projectiles does
1/4 of the damage that a single solid projectile of the same mass
would do.


So Let's abandon GURPS Vehicles, and work from basic principles,
borrowing capabilities from source material as necessary and
converting back into game system terms only at the end.


Let's say you choose 1 mm ball bearings as the projectiles.  Each
kilogram of warhead thus includes about two hundred thousand of them.

Let's have a 10-kiloton thrust bomb, with a mass of about 1 kg at
TL10.  A propulsion system mass of 10 kg/kiloton doesn't sound too far
out, you do need to protect the payload from being directly vaporised.
So let's add 100 kg of styrofoam or whatever, and 100 kg of ball
bearings.

Assume say 10% efficiency of converting detonation energy to kinetic
energy of payload in the desired direction, for a final payload speed
of 200 km/s.

Now, there are about 20 million probably partly-melted and definitely
misshapen ball bearings travelling at 200 km/s, in say a 1:10 cone.
At a range of 1000 km, there's one ball bearing per 1600 m^2, each
with 1000 MJ of kinetic energy.


Converting back into G:Traveller game terms, the "to-hit" roll is
pretty closely modelled by Size + RoF - Range, where RoF is in this
case the number of ball bearings.  For example, 1 million ball
bearings is +33, and 20 million is +37.  Each two points of success
indicates a doubling of the number of hits.  Damage from each hit is
about 6d x 45, using the Vehicles missile impact damage with a 1 mm
missile travelling at 220,000 yards per second.  Basic cost is about
12 kCr per mine.

There, that doesn't look too shabby.  A weapon for lightly-armoured
ships to fear out to a few thousand kilometres range, and devastating
to them within a few hundred kilometres.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 19:30:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  9 18:30:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Uthe
Message-ID: <12e.15a72e95.2a85c63e@aol.com>

Les writes:

>Where can I find UWP stats for the Uthe subsector? Canon if possible.

That would be in Foreven Sector? Canon for the entire sector comprises one 
set, out of many, of subsector names, world *positions* and about seven world 
UWPs. That's it. Foreven was set aside (other than the above) as "not to be 
officially developed" by GDW late in the MT days.  The handfull of official 
bits were published in Imperiallines #1. Some details beyond this can be 
found in the CT adventures in that sector.

That said, there are a couple fan write-ups out on the net...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 19:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 18:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
Message-ID: <200208100133.MLB00132@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>Let's have a 10-kiloton thrust bomb, with a mass of about 1 
>kg at TL10.  A propulsion system mass of 10 kg/kiloton 
>doesn't sound too far out, you do need to protect the 
>payload from being directly vaporised.
>So let's add 100 kg of styrofoam or whatever, and 100 kg of 
>ball bearings.

First thought: I don't believe 100kg would do it.

>Now, there are about 20 million probably partly-melted and 
>definitely misshapen ball bearings travelling at 200 km/s, 
>in say a 1:10 cone.
>At a range of 1000 km, there's one ball bearing per 1600 
>m^2, each with 1000 MJ of kinetic energy.

This is a bit misleading.  A modern APFSDS penetrator weighs 
around 15 kg, and has a kinetic energy of around 9 MJ.  It is 
designed to unleash its energy inside the target - i.e., it 
has to hold together long enough to penetrate the hull.  
Because the penetrator holds together long enough to spear 
through the hull, it can actually do damage.

These ball bearings sound like micrometeoroids.  Put up a 
Whipple bumper (a thin layer of aluminum, spaced several 
inches away from the main hull), and they'll be vaporized on 
contact with the outer layer, and the energy will be 
harmlessly dissipated, even if it is 1000 MJ.

________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 19:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 18:35:02 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <001a01c23f4b$b6502d00$7400a8c0@matt> <20020809193011.F3949@freeman.little-possums.net> <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt>
Message-ID: <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net>

Matthew Bond wrote:
> Actually I was referring to the immediately prior post in the tread,
> by Flykiller@aol.com...

But Flykiller's post refers specifically to a post saying that planets
fail due to loss of trade, not warfare, damage, or any TNE-specific
features.  To wit:

  >If planets are so self sufficient, then why does TNE describe planets
  >failing because they were cut off from interstellar trade?

The answer is that TNE does *not* describe planets failing because
they were cut off from interstellar trade.

TNE describes planets failing because they have been torn by sabotage,
subversion by hostile life-forms, warfare, looting, and numerous other
factors not particularly related to loss of trade.  It is hence
irrelevant to the preceding discussion.


> Your arguement was that irrespective of trade all planets can
> (perhaps even 'must') be self sufficient.

No, my argument was that trade levels for high-pop worlds are known to
be so low that there can not be any short-term external dependence on
trade.

Longer-term dependence on a scale of centuries may be a possibility,
but I personally think it far more likely that if trade was cut, it
would not take that long to develop local resources to cover or avoid
the very small shortfall.


> Thats all I'm saying... given sufficient stress to the system
> (irrespective of which particular Traveller setting you use), you
> can Fail any planet that isn't capable of supporting life without
> TL9+ intervention.

That's rather a guarded and qualified statement.  I'd go further and
say that given sufficient stress to the system, you can Fail any
planet at all!

But it won't be due to lack of trade, which was the contention of the
original post.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 19:38:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 18:38:09 2002
Subject: [TML] settlement date of Vilis
Message-ID: <200208100137.MLB00305@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I'm putting the settlement date of Vilis down as -240, some 
time before the Sacnoth Dominate, and the colonists leaving 
from Gungnir.

Any thoughts?
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 19:40:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 18:40:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <3D540E41.1040509@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D53003A.1070102@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020809190742.B3949@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D540E41.1040509@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020810113922.D5883@freeman.little-possums.net>

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> The fact that they all share remarkable similarities in background
> story is mere coincidence ;-)

Sort of makes a shambles of the acronym "OTU" though :(


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 20:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Fri Aug  9 19:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Was there really a Nung River in Indochina? Was: Uthe
In-Reply-To: <12e.15a72e95.2a85c63e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020809211618.00a919f0@minn.net>

At 09:28 PM 8/9/2002 EDT, GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:
>Les writes:
>
>>Where can I find UWP stats for the Uthe subsector? Canon if possible.
>
>That would be in Foreven Sector? Canon for the entire sector comprises one 
>set, out of many, of subsector names, world *positions* and about seven
world 
>UWPs. That's it. Foreven was set aside (other than the above) as "not to be 
>officially developed" by GDW late in the MT days.  The handfull of official 
>bits were published in Imperiallines #1. Some details beyond this can be 
>found in the CT adventures in that sector.

Sorry, I believe that you are incorrect.

If I recall correctly the Foreven sector is spinward of the Spinward
Marches. The Uthe subsector is shown in Supplement 3 as being immediately
coreward of the Regina subsector. 

I need the data for my demented OTU rewrite of Coppola's demented remake of
The Wizard of Oz.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 20:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  9 19:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
Message-ID: <20020810004141.99222.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

>The also ran into a wild card: Norris.  You can't predict an 
>unexpected enemy commander that is a bloody genius and has figured
>out your plan.  I always wondered if Norris' branch of Naval
>Intelligence hadn't actually learned bits and pieces of the Zhodani
>plan.

and then failed to disclose those bits and pieces to Sector Admiral
Santanocheev, to destroy his credibility before the Emperor, and to
allow the advance of other members of the INI cabal ... how paranoid
are we?

>The Zho's over-reached themselves, in my opinion.  They didn't 
>properly understand the strength of the Imperium's "defense in
>depth" concept, nor the tenacity of local forces.

Shtaliajtlas was an idiot, actually, who had not run enough
simulations to know how to get and hold 300 points before the
Imperium could react and start rolling the Zhodanis back.  

--Glenn


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 20:43:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Aug  9 19:43:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Gencon Details?
Message-ID: <3D547C9B.5C463567@mail.cswnet.com>

Anyone with details on whats going on at Gencon?

[sniffle] I wish I was there. [out right crying]

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 20:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 19:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <200208100133.MLB00132@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208100133.MLB00132@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020810124558.E5883@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> First thought: I don't believe 100kg would do it.

I'm assuming GTL 10-12 (TTL C-F), not current-day.  I thought I'd give
the concept the benefit of the doubt.


> These ball bearings sound like micrometeoroids.

Yes.  Only about ten times faster, roughly five times as dense, and at
least a few thousand times the volume.  They could be considered "like
micrometeroids" in the same sense that an APFSDS penetrator could be
considered "like a piece of bird shot".

I did totally miscalculate their energy though; it is really 100 kJ.
Yes, that's pathetic, and yet another strike against GURPS Vehicles
that it gives them a damage of 6d x 45.  You still want a fairly good
hull material though.

Suppose the aluminium layer is 3 mm thick (which seems generous enough
for a Whipple bumper).  The speed of the projectile is about 20 times
the speed of sound in aluminium, and hence the mass of aluminium that
absorbs energy works out to at most 7 milligrams.

It actually works out much less still, because at 200 km/s there is a
very good chance that the nuclei of the projectile atoms pass through
the spaces between the aluminium nuclei with greatly reduced
deflection.  The projectile should be more accurately modelled as a
coherent particle pulse than a solid object when considering the
terminal ballistics.  But assume that doesn't really happen.

Instead of a projectile travelling at 200 km/s, after the bumper
you're left with a jet of plasma at 10 million kelvin travelling at an
average speed of more than 80 km/s.  That hits your bare hull, still
carrying most of its original energy.  Not good.


Obviously, if the energy really was 1000 MJ then the bumper would be
utterly useless.  Such a bumper is designed to stop much smaller and
slower projectiles with kinetic energies of less than a 1 J that might
otherwise cause erosion.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 21:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 20:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1028582658.5758.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20809.200112.4y7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Steven Hudson writes:
>> 
>>   "Fighter Division: ... Fighters are used for long range
>> patrols and recon within a system, allows (sic) the carrier
>> advanced warning of enemy ... In addition, the fighters are
>> expected to hold the screen against enemy vessels until the
>> Riders are ready to begin* a battle".
>
> Two problems:
>
> 1)  In space, it tends to be easier to simply tack a great big sensor on the
> main ship.

Except that a synethic aperture sensor using fighters well away from
the ship will *always* have better resolution than any array the ship
can carry because resolution depends on *width* of the sensor.

The shipboard sensor may have higher *sensitivity* because sensitivity
depends on surface area of the sensor (or sensors in the case of
multi-element arrays). 

The higher resolution is useful in getting distance and location of
enemy ships. Which makes for better targetting solutions.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 21:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 20:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
Message-ID: <200208100314.MLD01626@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>I'm assuming GTL 10-12 (TTL C-F), not current-day.  I 
>thought I'd give the concept the benefit of the doubt.

I seem to recall that bumper material is just a straight heat 
of vaporization kind of thing.  Distance from blast, yield, 
etc.  Not that a nuclear shotgun hasn't been invented.  They 
were evidently considered for SDI, but that part of the OTA 
report is still classified.


>Yes.  Only about ten times faster, roughly five times as 
>dense, and at least a few thousand times the volume.  

NASA apparently tests using a steel 3mm projectile at 7km/sec.

>You still want a fairly good hull material though.

Apparently the reason that multilayered, thin, spaced bumpers 
do better than solid armor at protecting against impact that 
turns a projectile into plasma is that solid armor tends to 
confine the plasma - the penetration is actually enhanced.  
With a space between each layer, the plasma has (albeit 
nanoseconds) time to expand after passing through successive 
layers.  And even a few nanoseconds of expansion is better 
than none at all.

>It actually works out much less still, because at 200 km/s 
>there is a very good chance that the nuclei of the 
>projectile atoms pass through the spaces between the 
>aluminium nuclei with greatly reduced
>deflection.  

I don't see 200km/sec as a velocity range where we would get 
these kinds of effects.  Maybe at relativistic velocities.

>Instead of a projectile travelling at 200 km/s, after the 
>bumper you're left with a jet of plasma at 10 million kelvin 
>travelling at an average speed of more than 80 km/s.  

But it's not an inline jet, as it would largely remain if it 
hit solid armor plate with decent thickness.  So now there's 
some jet, and some of the energy is dissipating as a 
hemispherical shock front of plasma.

>That hits your bare hull, still carrying most of its 
>original energy.  Not good.

Yes, but spread over a slightly wider area.  And if I have 
multiple layers, the layers get chewed up, but the ship is 
unharmed.  Of course, a shotgun effect like this could 
effectively clean off one side of the ship - the bumpers 
could be swept away, along with any exposed antennae, 
turrets, etc.  Perhaps even maneuver thrusters if the hit 
came from behind.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 21:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Fri Aug  9 20:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
Message-ID: <000001c2401f$59029320$33c3d63f@customer>

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> >The fact that they all share remarkable similarities in background
> >story is mere coincidence ;-)

Tim Little wrote:
>Sort of makes a shambles of the acronym "OTU" though :(

The fact is that the OTU as it stands is contradictory, inconsistent and, at
times, unworkable.
It's a mish-mash put together by dozens of different people with no apparent
continuity control.

There doesn't appear to have been any effort to make the various rules sets
mesh together either.

John Scarlett




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 21:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Aug  9 20:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
Message-ID: <F127V8MoyGnyxrDyfbX00007185@hotmail.com>

From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

     "I suggest constant suggestions that the young hellion requires an
immediate bath."


Mr. Berry,

     Thank you for the additional ammunition sir!  My threats of "I'll sell 
you for medical experiments" and "I'll mail you to the undertaker" have lost 
their luster.

     "But can be considered a success.  There have been no Imperial
attempts to establish colonies in Zhodani space for 700 years."

     Oh yes, a rousing success.  The buffer zone intended circa 500 hasn't 
been completed yet, but there are no Imperial colonies, client states, or 
whatever in Zhodani space.  The buffer zone requirement may simply be a 
"leftover" goal from the original strategy sessions in the 500's.  The Zhos 
have already achieved the benefits a buffer zone would give them, but not 
the actual buffer zone itself.

     "The also ran into a wild card: Norris.  You can't predict an
unexpected enemy commander that is a bloody genius and has figured out your 
plan.  I always wondered if Norris' branch of Naval Intelligence hadn't 
actually learned bits and pieces of the Zhodani plan."

     True.  The Imperium had a few geniuses during that war.  Add to the 
total, the SDB flotilla commander who scattered his forces to continually 
contest the Zho's supply line for the Efate siege rather than fight to the 
death.  Or the sophont who led the 212th against the Swords during the war's 
latter stages, smashing the Sacnoth fleet and occupying the good chunk of 
the Confederation in 90 days is nothing to sneeze at.  Or the sophont who 
defended Rhylanor, he/she/it might have known about a prospective Zho 
offensive but they still beat it.

     "The Zho's over-reached themselves, in my opinion.  They didn't
properly understand the strength of the Imperium's "defense in depth" 
concept, nor the tenacity of local forces."

     The Zho plan may have worked against the old Imperial "crust defense" 
policy.  The "islands of resistance" policy threw the Zhos a nasty curve, 
they completely failed to pick up IN paradigm shift despite the TNS news 
briefs.  As victors of the last 3 of 4 wars, the Zhos planned and fought the 
LAST frontier war.  As losers of the last 3 of 4 wars, the Imperials 
(finally) planned and fought the NEXT frontier war.  That little morality 
play has occurred too many times in human history not to be recognized.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 21:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Aug  9 20:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
In-Reply-To: <000001c2401f$59029320$33c3d63f@customer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020809235319.02899e68@192.168.0.1>

At 11:36 PM 8/9/2002 -0400, John Scarlett wrote:
>Bruce Johnson wrote:
> > >The fact that they all share remarkable similarities in background
> > >story is mere coincidence ;-)
>Tim Little wrote:
> >Sort of makes a shambles of the acronym "OTU" though :(
>The fact is that the OTU as it stands is contradictory, inconsistent and, at
>times, unworkable.
>It's a mish-mash put together by dozens of different people with no apparent
>continuity control.

Well, some...but even works by single authors show inconsistencies.
I'm sure folks in the list can give multiple examples in popular fiction.

>There doesn't appear to have been any effort to make the various rules sets
>mesh together either.

Hmmmm....and the business model for making GT mech to CT rules?



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 22:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Aug  9 21:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
Message-ID: <F50zbAUfKRfcjcMzfoV000000cd@hotmail.com>

From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

     "I heartily endorse your basic analysis,..."

Mr. Goffin,

     Please see a mental health professional as soon as possible.  While 
Whipsnade's Syndrome is terminal, the final stages may be delayed long 
enough to allow the sufferers a nearly normal life.  The usual prescription 
involves a daily dose of alcohol.

     "... which must be further evidence for the common belief that great 
minds think alike -- er, I mean, that Traveller players need to get a life 
-- no wait a bit..."

     Yes, I do need to get a life.

     "Anyway, if the boardgame of Fifth Frontier War is a good 
simulation,..."

     It's the ONLY simulation we have! (shudder)

     "So the Jewells would not have to be ground down by planetary sieges.  
Jewell itself is always a battle, but the Mongo National Guard will flee in 
terror after some bombing, and Esalin, Emerald, and Ruby have no defense 
forces to speak of (those TL 8 motorized infantry on Esalin are more 
terrified that the MNG, but can't flee as fast).  Lysen and Grant likewise 
need only to be occupied."

     Your are, of course, correct sir.  Jewel may require a siege, but the 
Jewels do not.

     "Begin processing the captives!"

     Hi, I'm Larsen and I'm a deadhead.
     Hi, Larsen!  Give us back our wristwatches!



     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 22:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 21:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <200208091101.MJX01284@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20809.201104.3R7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson
>>Causality is *very* basic. 
>
> Wheeler has shown that there is no proof that causality is a 
> requirement of this universe as a basic law.  It makes a nice 
> thought, but by no means is it a requirement.
>
> The two-slit experiment, played out over interstellar 
> distances, or even across a tabletop in a lab, was shown in 
> 1987 to indicate that causality is violated on a regular 
> basis.

Excuse me? Care to detail exactly *how* it violates causality?

It may violate *local* causality. But *global* causality is a very
different kettle of fish.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 22:11:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 21:11:15 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <200208091312.MKB02981@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20809.201248.7O9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> "Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance" says
>>Not quite. If I understand Wheeler correctly, causality is 
>>not violated as such (cause still precedes effect). Its just 
>>cause is not determined until the effect is observed.
>
> the problem is that the nature of the observation will force 
> a photon to the left or the right - an observation that is 
> taken perhaps a billion years after the photon departed. 

So? The effect (left or right) still *has* a cause (the observation). 

So *global* causality is upheld. Local isn't.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 22:11:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 21:11:31 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <E17dHmz-0002cx-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20809.201407.9P9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
>
>> If global causality isn't preserved, then you can have effects without
>> causes and a number of other things. And they basicly make hash of the
>> very *idea* of there being natural laws. Which is why scientists are
>> so reluctant to accept causality violations. 
>> 
>> Causality is *very* basic. 
>
> Very true, but I still find is fascinating that the primary arguement 
> that global causality must hold is aesthetic.  I'm not saying is 
> doesn't hold, merely that the reasoning is interesting.

Well, in the end it boils down to "without global causality 'reasoning'
is merely wishful thinking". 

Because without global causality, it's not possible to draw
conclusions. "If A then B" doesn't hold. And without that, everything
else falls apart.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 22:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Fri Aug  9 21:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Obeyery of Stave
In-Reply-To: <20020809195517.52468.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPCEHHEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

I am currently in the process of re-doing my entire web site.  What I was
wondering is if anyone can take a look at what I have done with the Stave
system (part of the Traveller Landgrab) and the Obeyery who were mentioned
in BTC, and suggest anything more they would like to see. I will probably
expand the details of the other two systems which are only partly completed,
at the same time.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 23:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 22:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller - more
In-Reply-To: <d1.1c6715c7.2a8098f4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20809.212402.6L7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>  >Actually, given some of the other tech, the weapons could be fusion
>  >warheads that don't *need* a fission trigger.
>
> I see.  Then (ignoring the fact that this is fantasy technology) I suppose 
> that anyone with access to a fusion plant of any size will have access to a 
> fusion "nuke" (for lack of another word)?
>
> Book 4 states that the PGMP-13 is powered by a fusion reactor.  I don't 
> suppose this would be significantly larger than that on a missile, so how 
> much modification would be needed to turn it into a bomb?

That we can't say. But it'd be rather like turning a propane torch into
a bomb. Doable, but messy.

Fusion doesn't have "critical mass" (unless you are talking about star
sized masses). So you have to do *something* to the fusion fuel to make
it fuse *fast*, and in quantity. This requires not mere high temps and
pressures, but *something* (inertia, pressure, whatever) to keep the
fuel in the reaction area long enough to react.

Maybe gravitics? 

Fusion reactors are even harder to make go "boom" than fission
reactors. And even fission reactors don't explode easily. They don't do
*nuclear* explosions at all unless you pull all the fuel, repack it and
use a *lot* of explosives.

Even so, anything that can make an FGMP or air raft fusion plant work,
could probably make a "pure" fusion bomob that wasn't overly huge. Say
the size of an early atomic bomb. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 00:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 23:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <200208100314.MLD01626@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208100314.MLD01626@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020810155906.A6285@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> I seem to recall that bumper material is just a straight heat 
> of vaporization kind of thing.  Distance from blast, yield, 
> etc.

Yeah, I'm assuming much better materials at TL 12 than here at TL 7.


> NASA apparently tests using a steel 3mm projectile at 7km/sec.

That's a very big "micro"meteoroid!  It's travelling a lot slower
though, so that probably makes up for it.


> With a space between each layer, the plasma has (albeit 
> nanoseconds) time to expand after passing through successive 
> layers.

Sure -- at the expense of more cost and hugely more volume.


> I don't see 200km/sec as a velocity range where we would get these
> kinds of effects.  Maybe at relativistic velocities.

200 km/s *is* starting to get into relativisitic velocities; it is
approaching 0.1% of c.

Work it out yourself though.  An iron nucleus at 200 km/s has a
kinetic energy of 12 keV.  That's a couple of orders of magnitude more
than the binding energy of its electrons, so chemical effects are not
a significant factor.  The nuclei *are* essentially independent
particles.

It so happens that a few millimetres of aluminium is enough to
thermalise the nuclei, and the aluminium will become a significant
part of the resulting plasma.


> But it's not an inline jet, as it would largely remain if it 
> hit solid armor plate with decent thickness.  So now there's 
> some jet, and some of the energy is dissipating as a 
> hemispherical shock front of plasma.

Less than 1/4 of the energy dissipates sideways in this case.  Yes,
multiple layers will do a much better job.  Most of the energy will be
absorbed by the 3rd or 4th layer.


> Of course, a shotgun effect like this could effectively clean off
> one side of the ship

Worse than that: the bumper layers rely for their effectiveness on
extremely sparse impacts.  The plasma from one impact destroys a much
larger region of the layers than the size of the projectile.  For
example, the impact in question would probably render 4-5 layers
ineffective over a region 20-50 cm via blast effects originating at
about layer 3 warping the structure around it.

If another projectile hits nearby, there will be much less protection.
There is a good chance that it would directly hit the hull.


You should also remember how much space these layers take up.  For a
400 dton ship, each layer consumes at least 10 dtons or so.  Since
they're no better protection than solid armour against anything bigger
than a centimetre or so at starship combat speeds (or any starship
weapons), it seems like a pretty poor deal to me.

I don't think Traveller ships would bother with spaced armour, since
their costs are so heavily volume-dependent.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 00:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Aug  9 23:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <20020810155906.A6285@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHIEOIILAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> I seem to recall that bumper material is just a straight heat 
> of vaporization kind of thing.  Distance from blast, yield, 
> etc.

Yeah, I'm assuming much better materials at TL 12 than here at TL 7.


> NASA apparently tests using a steel 3mm projectile at 7km/sec.

That's a very big "micro"meteoroid!  It's travelling a lot slower
though, so that probably makes up for it.


> With a space between each layer, the plasma has (albeit 
> nanoseconds) time to expand after passing through successive 
> layers.

Sure -- at the expense of more cost and hugely more volume.


> I don't see 200km/sec as a velocity range where we would get these
> kinds of effects.  Maybe at relativistic velocities.

200 km/s *is* starting to get into relativisitic velocities; it is
approaching 0.1% of c.

Work it out yourself though.  An iron nucleus at 200 km/s has a
kinetic energy of 12 keV.  That's a couple of orders of magnitude more
than the binding energy of its electrons, so chemical effects are not
a significant factor.  The nuclei *are* essentially independent
particles.

It so happens that a few millimetres of aluminium is enough to
thermalise the nuclei, and the aluminium will become a significant
part of the resulting plasma.


> But it's not an inline jet, as it would largely remain if it 
> hit solid armor plate with decent thickness.  So now there's 
> some jet, and some of the energy is dissipating as a 
> hemispherical shock front of plasma.

Less than 1/4 of the energy dissipates sideways in this case.  Yes,
multiple layers will do a much better job.  Most of the energy will be
absorbed by the 3rd or 4th layer.


> Of course, a shotgun effect like this could effectively clean off
> one side of the ship

Worse than that: the bumper layers rely for their effectiveness on
extremely sparse impacts.  The plasma from one impact destroys a much
larger region of the layers than the size of the projectile.  For
example, the impact in question would probably render 4-5 layers
ineffective over a region 20-50 cm via blast effects originating at
about layer 3 warping the structure around it.

If another projectile hits nearby, there will be much less protection.
There is a good chance that it would directly hit the hull.


You should also remember how much space these layers take up.  For a
400 dton ship, each layer consumes at least 10 dtons or so.  Since
they're no better protection than solid armour against anything bigger
than a centimetre or so at starship combat speeds (or any starship
weapons), it seems like a pretty poor deal to me.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Can't they just use TL 15 strip mine?

jml
Of course he's a folk singer
he sounds like he's got terminal mumps


I don't think Traveller ships would bother with spaced armour, since
their costs are so heavily volume-dependent.


- Tim
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 00:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  9 23:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] test, ignore
Message-ID: <5ad2d65abf6f.5abf6f5ad2d6@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Date: Friday, August 9, 2002 8:08 pm
Subject: [TML] test, ignore

> This is a test of mime stripping

"Don't look, Ethel!" ;-)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 00:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  9 23:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] test3, ignore
Message-ID: <5acc125ad03b.5ad03b5acc12@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Date: Friday, August 9, 2002 8:33 pm
Subject: [TML] test3, ignore

> Final MIME test

Must be working.  I didn't hear a thing. ;-)

OTOH, I _did_ hear Tom Bodett's voice in my mind's ear....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 00:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri Aug  9 23:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Uthe
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020809211618.00a919f0@minn.net>
Message-ID: <20020810065021.7C9C72793A@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/09/02 at 09:16 PM,  Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net> said:

>At 09:28 PM 8/9/2002 EDT, GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:
>>Les writes:
>>
>>>Where can I find UWP stats for the Uthe subsector? Canon if possible.

>>That would be in Foreven Sector? Canon for the entire sector comprises one 
>>set, out of many, of subsector names, world *positions* and about seven
>world 
>>UWPs. That's it. Foreven was set aside (other than the above) as "not to be 
>>officially developed" by GDW late in the MT days.  The handfull of official 
>>bits were published in Imperiallines #1. Some details beyond this can be 
>>found in the CT adventures in that sector.

>Sorry, I believe that you are incorrect.

>If I recall correctly the Foreven sector is spinward of the Spinward
>Marches. The Uthe subsector is shown in Supplement 3 as being
>immediately coreward of the Regina subsector. 

Gvurrdon Sector/Subsector O -- Uthe

 I go to <http://zho.bekka.com/data/CLASSIC/> for my OTU data needs.
<g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 01:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat Aug 10 00:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020809081646.009f77c0@mindspring.com>
References: <F24qs1wP7vvqgqGTwgT0000593c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D556531.21647.F79DE@localhost>

On 9 Aug 2002 at 8:27, Douglas Berry wrote:

> >     The Zho's three main offensives fit this idea neatly.  First, they 
> > "pin down" the Jewels.  Second, a sickle stroke through the Efate region 
> > to cut the Jewels off.  Third, a deep strike at Rhylanor to gain the 
> > war's supreme bargaining chip.
> >     If all had gone well, the Jewels would be slowly ground down by a 
> > series of planetary seiges, cutoff from the rest of the Imperium by Zho 
> > forces in the Efate region, and eventually abandoned by the Imperium at 
> > the negotiation table in return for the Zhodani evacuation of Rhylanor.
> >     Of course, no plan survives contact with the enemy, but the 
> > Consulate's hubris can be forgiven.  After all, they had won every 
> > Frontier War prior to the Fifth.  To paraphrase Moltke, the Consulate 
> > planned well, but didn't quite plan enough.
> 
> The also ran into a wild card: Norris.  You can't predict an unexpected 
> enemy commander that is a bloody genius and has figured out your plan.  I 
> always wondered if Norris' branch of Naval Intelligence hadn't actually 
> learned bits and pieces of the Zhodani plan.
> 
> The Zho's over-reached themselves, in my opinion.  They didn't properly 
> understand the strength of the Imperium's "defense in depth" concept, nor 
> the tenacity of local forces.

The latter is perhaps understandable, as in previous wars they didn't 
seem to have much trouble 'persuading' systems to leave the Imperium. 
The time between the Third Frontier War and the 4th & 5th wars seems to 
have been sufficient for the Spinward Marches to become firmly 
integrated into the 3I at a fundmental, emotional level.

As for lack of understanding of the 'defence in depth' - IIRC the rider 
'Rons didn't make too good a showing in the 4th War, so they may have 
underestimeted their effectiveness, even though the rapid-reaction role 
is probably the strongest defensive role for the rider component of a 
fleet.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 01:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 10 00:37:03 2002
Subject: Armor Schemes (was: Re: [TML] mines)
Message-ID: <5b9b0f5ba833.5ba8335b9b0f@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
Date: Saturday, August 10, 2002 8:59 am
Subject: Re: [TML] mines

<<snip>> 
> 
> You should also remember how much space these layers take up.  For a
> 400 dton ship, each layer consumes at least 10 dtons or so.  Since
> they're no better protection than solid armour against anything bigger
> than a centimetre or so at starship combat speeds (or any starship
> weapons), it seems like a pretty poor deal to me.
> 
> I don't think Traveller ships would bother with spaced armour, since
> their costs are so heavily volume-dependent.

What I've done on some of my FF&S2 designs is place additional armor on 
certain components, such as the power plant and drive sections.  Thus, 
while a shot may penetrate the main hull armor, it often doesn't have 
the energy left to pepentrate the additional armor to damage the 
component within.  _Montana_ takes advantage of this, as does Rob Day's 
IW-era _Vanguard_ ship design.

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Rampart/2555/vanguard.htm



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 01:43:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Sat Aug 10 00:43:10 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
Message-ID: <000001c2403c$3dbce440$8bdad63f@customer>

John Scarlett wrote:
 Mark Urbin responds:
> >The fact is that the OTU as it stands is contradictory, inconsistent and,
at
> >times, unworkable.
> >It's a mish-mash put together by dozens of different people with no
apparent
> >continuity control.
>
> Well, some...but even works by single authors show inconsistencies.
> I'm sure folks in the list can give multiple examples in popular fiction.
>
> >There doesn't appear to have been any effort to make the various rules
sets
> >mesh together either.
>
> Hmmmm....and the business model for making GT mesh to CT rules?

Well, I guess the headmaster caught me making broad, unsupported statements
again. ;-)  But seriously, communication isn't my strong suit.  If I speak
more than 20 words a day to someone other than myself, or the cats and dogs,
I'm being effusive.  The fact that I can type more words than I'll ever
speak in my lifetime, doesn't change the fact that I'm not a good
communicator.

So, my above statements don't accurately reflect the point that I was trying
to make.  When I talk about the rules sets not meshing, I mean that how
things work is different from rules set to rules set so that your not able
to do some things in one rules set that you could with another rules set.
This doesn't allow for much meaningful discussion of how things work between
people who are using different rules sets.

As for the OTU, I was blissfully happy with it until I joined the TML.  It's
the various threads on 'How This doesn't work' and 'How does That really
work?' that have led me to the conclusion that there's something not quite
right with the OTU.

Frankly I don't know why I'm making such a fuss.  I've always believed that
I should do what I want IMTU and I should let everybody else do what they
want in their TU's.  The OTU is vague enough to allow for many different
interpretations.  Maybe it was designed to be that way on purpose.

John Scarlett




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 01:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 10 00:49:02 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
 CHALLENGE)
Message-ID: <5b2a125b101f.5b101f5b2a12@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
Date: Saturday, August 10, 2002 4:34 am
Subject: Re: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in 
traveller CHALLENGE)

<<snip>>
> 
>  >If planets are so self sufficient, then why does TNE describe 
> planets  >failing because they were cut off from interstellar trade?
> 
> The answer is that TNE does *not* describe planets failing because
> they were cut off from interstellar trade.
> 
> TNE describes planets failing because they have been torn by sabotage,
> subversion by hostile life-forms, warfare, looting, and numerous other
> factors not particularly related to loss of trade.  It is hence
> irrelevant to the preceding discussion.

My take would be that loss of trade became a factor in causing failure 
on worlds that depended on off-world life support tech to maintain 
habitability.  Under normal circumstances, they would be viable for 
quite some time (probably centuries) before a loss of trade would 
deplete spare parts to the point that life support fails.  With the 
destruction wrought by Black War (let alone Virus), a loss of trade 
means that spare parts used to repair war-damaged systems can't be 
replaced, leading to the acceleration of life support failure.

<<snip>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 02:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug 10 01:09:02 2002
Subject: Armor Schemes (was: Re: [TML] mines)
In-Reply-To: <5b9b0f5ba833.5ba8335b9b0f@us.army.mil>
References: <5b9b0f5ba833.5ba8335b9b0f@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <20020810180812.B6285@freeman.little-possums.net>

john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:
> What I've done on some of my FF&S2 designs is place additional armor on 
> certain components, such as the power plant and drive sections.

Yes, that works in GURPS Vehicles too.  However, it usually works out
cheaper and more reliable to just have multiple drives and power
plants, so that loss of one or two merely reduces capacity somewhat.

There is one major exception: the jump coils.  They are compact, vital
to mobility, and very expensive.  You should definitely armour them
separately if you expect to see combat.  The main bridge is another
reasonable candidate.  It is not too hard to put DR 30000 on each
without impacting on performance in other ways.

It is not clear to me whether you can have internal meson screens.  If
you can, then a DR 60000 screen should probably be put in as well.

Of course, neither is going to do much against a standard missile
doing 6d x 4000 (5).  Half a million points of armour is really just
getting silly (and infeasible).  :/


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 02:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug 10 01:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <20809.200112.4y7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <ML-2.3.1028582658.5758.ajackson@ping> <20809.200112.4y7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020810185016.C6285@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Except that a synethic aperture sensor using fighters well away from
> the ship will *always* have better resolution than any array the
> ship can carry because resolution depends on *width* of the sensor.

Yes, I've always thought that ships's sensors should consist at least
partly of externally deployed units.  Putting those units on fighters
seems a little odd, though.  Surely you want them to be unmanned for
an absolute minimum of uncontrolled vibration and other bad
influences.

If you're doing visible interferometry, then half a micrometre of
uncompensated motion means uselessness.  Far-IR work is almost as bad,
and requires low thermal noise as well.  Shorter wavelengths don't
need external interferometry, since a single ship can theoretically
obtain all the resolution it would want from its own hull-mounted
detectors.

I envisage most detection taking place via far IR (heat radiation),
optionally followed by ladar tracking.  A synthetic aperture of a
kilometre or so diameter should give resolution at million kilometre
range (60 G:Traveller hexes) of about 10 metres in passive IR, without
being too cumbersome in the number and positioning of external
elements.

Naturally, it makes no sense to have resolution finer than the size of
region from which you can pick up a single photon per unit of time in
which you are interested.  Nor does it make sense to have your
external stations so far out that you can't constantly monitor their
position to within half a wavelength.  These factors will limit the
size of any synthetic aperture array.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 04:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sat Aug 10 03:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <200208091312.MKB02981@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D558F56.25375.B1AA6F1@localhost>

On 9 Aug 2002, at 9:12, John T. Kwon wrote:

> the problem is that the nature of the observation will force 
> a photon to the left or the right - an observation that is 
> taken perhaps a billion years after the photon departed. 

Working from my laymans knowledge of quantum mechanics, I believe 
there is no violation of causality here. Several billion years ago the photon 
leaves the quasar, it then travels all potential paths to the observer in 
variant probabilities, the photon then arrives at earth where the act of 
observeration selects which of the variant probabilities becomes part of 
reality. See, no violation of causality (a splitting headache maybe, but no 
violation of causality)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 04:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 03:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
In-Reply-To: <OFBA2D763C.F2E139E2-ONCA256C0E.000A4049@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20810.001307.7E6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I'd been thinking about this for a while, too. A copyright question that I 
> don't know the answer to is, "Is it 'fair use' if I put a Jesse picture on 
> ONE T-Shirt for my own use?"

Actually, given *some* of us in this group, an "I <heart> HE" shirt
like Ditzie's might do well, and could be sold to the mainstream.

Which reminds me:

http://jokeworm.com/AToons/AT280.jpg

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 04:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 03:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <3d51707a.2567266@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20810.031716.6F9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng) writes:
>
>>Thanks.  Anybody can provide with how the Royal Navy does it?  Has the =
> USN
>>changed anything from the afore-explained procedure?=20
>
> I always liked David Weber's change of command ceremonies in the Honor
> Harrington books, but I don't know whether they're based on genuine
> Napoleonic-era Royal Navy practice or just something DW made up...
>
> (in brief, the new Captain is welcomed on board the ship as a visiting
> senior officer, is escorted to the bridge, makes an all-hands
> announcement in which (s)he reads aloud the written orders from the
> Admiralty directing him/her "To proceed aboard Her Majesty's Starship
> <Foo>, there to take upon yourself the duties and responsibilities of
> commanding officer in the service of the Crown"; after which the new
> Captain formally tells the previous (acting) commander "I assume
> command".)

C.S. Forester had Horatio Hornblower doing the same thing, so it's
*probably* authentic.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 05:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith Mormon minion of Arioch)
Date: Sat Aug 10 04:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
References: <000001c2401f$59029320$33c3d63f@customer>
Message-ID: <010001c2405d$3515c2f0$6f7ba8c0@kenneith93j41k>

Well just go by what the little black books say and you will be happy, oh no
wait that is my solution
:)
ken

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comics
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you
http://www.geocities.com/J_Elric_Smith/Index.html
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Scarlett" <jlscarlett@earthlink.net>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 11:36 PM
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.


> Bruce Johnson wrote:
> > >The fact that they all share remarkable similarities in background
> > >story is mere coincidence ;-)
>
> Tim Little wrote:
> >Sort of makes a shambles of the acronym "OTU" though :(
>
> The fact is that the OTU as it stands is contradictory, inconsistent and,
at
> times, unworkable.
> It's a mish-mash put together by dozens of different people with no
apparent
> continuity control.
>
> There doesn't appear to have been any effort to make the various rules
sets
> mesh together either.
>
> John Scarlett
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 05:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sat Aug 10 04:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
In-Reply-To: <3D556531.21647.F79DE@localhost>
References: <F24qs1wP7vvqgqGTwgT0000593c@hotmail.com> <3D556531.21647.F79DE@localhost>
Message-ID: <3d55f441.2663671@post.demon.co.uk>

"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:

>> The Zho's over-reached themselves, in my opinion.  They didn't =
properly=20
>> understand the strength of the Imperium's "defense in depth" concept, =
nor=20
>> the tenacity of local forces.
>
>The latter is perhaps understandable, as in previous wars they didn't=20
>seem to have much trouble 'persuading' systems to leave the Imperium.=20

Well, naturally they didn't have much trouble "persuading" the local
inhabitants... they *are* dirty mindraping brainwashing Joe scum,
after all...

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 05:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 04:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <003c01c23dc2$11fe1850$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <20810.032526.5d5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Eric Frank Russell never became as famous as many of the other Hugo
> Winners, but some of his novels have recently been re-issued and are
> available at Amazon(1). Shadow Man: The life and works of Eric Frank
> Russell(2) is a good fan site. For some reviews of some of Russell's
> other works, visit this site(3).

I hope the re-issue "The Great Explosion". Or a book containing all the
stories from it. 

It has some *very* odd societies that any Traveller referree can swipe
to put on Earthlike worlds. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 05:23:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 04:23:18 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <e4e645e4c45c.e4c45ce4e645@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <20810.031820.6v4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Jeff D. Greenly" says
>> <snip naval change of command>
>> 
>> Don't forget - the outgoing commander has to do an inventory 
>> with the new commander, and the new commander gets to sign 
>> for the ship and all of the equipment in it.
>
> Anybody know if a _Nimitz_-class CVN has a National Stock Number? ;-)
>
> As the incoming captain signs a one-page hand receipt for "Carrier, 
> Aircraft, Nuclear-Powered, w/ancillary equipment"...then spends the next 
> week signing all the annexes to the hand receipt....

Eric Frank Russell's short story "Allamagoosa" has an interesting
example of what can happen. 

"V1098. Offog, one."

(You can find the story in "the Hugo Winners, Volume I")

And there's a bit in "Starship Troopers" about what happens when you
fail to doublecheck the inventory before taking over from someone.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 05:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 10 04:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
Message-ID: <200208101154.MLV00593@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson says
>So? The effect (left or right) still *has* a cause (the 
observation). 
>
>So *global* causality is upheld. Local isn't.
>

The problem is that the photon changed course billions of 
years ago, before the Earth existed, before people existed, 
before the detector existed.  But the act of observing forces 
a change - a change that takes place before the observation.

It's as though an observation in the present writes the past, 
which is what Wheeler talks about.  Results preceding the 
initiating action.  Wheeler says in one of his books that the 
act of observing writes and decides the past - it's not 
really observing, since by changing the methods of 
observation, we can get a different result.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 06:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 10 05:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller - more
Message-ID: <200208101200.MLV00743@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson says
>Even so, anything that can make an FGMP or air raft fusion 
>plant work, could probably make a "pure" fusion bomob that 
>wasn't overly huge. Say the size of an early atomic bomb. 

Fusion weapons without fission triggers are under 
consideration now.  Work was done in Poland as early as 1976 
on a biconical shaped charge and tritium gas that achieved a 
nominal fusion result.  The development was intended to 
produce a torpedo warhead - the prototype device was small 
enough to fit on a tabletop.

Probably the closest thing today would be magnetized target 
fusion.  You'll need a plasma source, and a power source much 
smaller than you might think, because once the plasma is 
initially confined, the final compression can be done by 
explosives.

The work on non-fission devices has a primary design goal of 
very small packages, very small yields.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 06:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sat Aug 10 05:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Uthe
In-Reply-To: <20020810065021.7C9C72793A@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <3.0.6.32.20020809211618.00a919f0@minn.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020810071405.00a98100@minn.net>

At 01:50 AM 8/10/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>On 08/09/02 at 09:16 PM,  Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net> said:
>
>>At 09:28 PM 8/9/2002 EDT, GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:
>>>Les writes:
>>>
>>>>Where can I find UWP stats for the Uthe subsector? Canon if possible.
>
>>>That would be in Foreven Sector? Canon for the entire sector comprises one 
>>>set, out of many, of subsector names, world *positions* and about seven
>>world 
>>>UWPs. That's it. Foreven was set aside (other than the above) as "not to
be 
>>>officially developed" by GDW late in the MT days.  The handfull of
official 
>>>bits were published in Imperiallines #1. Some details beyond this can be 
>>>found in the CT adventures in that sector.
>
>>Sorry, I believe that you are incorrect.
>
>>If I recall correctly the Foreven sector is spinward of the Spinward
>>Marches. The Uthe subsector is shown in Supplement 3 as being
>>immediately coreward of the Regina subsector. 
>
>Gvurrdon Sector/Subsector O -- Uthe
>
> I go to <http://zho.berka.com/data/CLASSIC/> for my OTU data needs.
><g>
>
>Eris
>-- 
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
>http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     My new first rule of advanced weapon testing: Make a backup 
copy of yourself before opening fire.
     --Kevyn, Schlock Mercenary, August 10, 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 06:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 10 05:15:03 2002
Subject: Armor Schemes (was: Re: [TML] mines)
Message-ID: <200208101214.MLV01175@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>Half a million points of armour is really just
>getting silly (and infeasible).  :/

If I'm the commander, and the bridge is armored that much 
more heavily than the rest of the ship, that's great - the 
rest of the ship can be blown completely away, but I'm going 
to survive the battle, tumbling end over end in what's left 
of the bridge.

If we have some backup power inside the bridge itself, we can 
make tea while waiting for the boarding party - or the second 
salvo.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 06:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sat Aug 10 05:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <20809.201248.7O9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <200208091312.MKB02981@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D55B66B.29635.222212@localhost>

On 9 Aug 2002, at 20:12, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> > the problem is that the nature of the observation will force 
> > a photon to the left or the right - an observation that is 
> > taken perhaps a billion years after the photon departed. 

> So? The effect (left or right) still *has* a cause (the observation). 

No, the effect that caused the proton to turn left or right was gravity and did 
occur billions of years ago. The observation is the effect that turns one of 
the two possibilities into reality. Up until the observation, both of the 
possibilities "exist" as probabilities, but the act of observation forces the 
universe to pick one.

> So *global* causality is upheld. Local isn't.

Both local and global causality are upheld.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 07:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 10 06:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 Lite
Message-ID: <609ee3606edd.606edd609ee3@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: James Ramsay <quakers_united@yahoo.com.au>
Date: Thursday, July 25, 2002 5:08 am
Subject: RE: [TML] T20 Lite

<<snip>>

 Which brings me to another point, is there any
> version of Trav where denser atmospheres affect
> lasers. Would this be a noticeable affect in RL.

FF&S2 for T4 has a table to calculate the effect of various atmosphere 
types on laser fire (my copy is in my barracks room, else I'd quote the 
table).  I suspect that FF&S (for TNE) also has this feature.

Sorry if someone already answered this; I'm still trying to catch up on 
a couple thousand TML posts....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 07:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sat Aug 10 06:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Uthe
In-Reply-To: <20020810065021.7C9C72793A@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <3.0.6.32.20020809211618.00a919f0@minn.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020810084457.00a92520@minn.net>

At 01:50 AM 8/10/2002 -0500, Eris Reddoch wrote:

>Gvurrdon Sector/Subsector O -- Uthe
>
> I go to <http://zho.bekka.com/data/CLASSIC/> for my OTU data needs.
><g>
>
>Eris

Actually it's <http://zho.berka.com/data/CLASSIC/>

The maps aree in ASCII, which is really neat. 

Thank you.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     My new first rule of advanced weapon testing: Make a backup 
copy of yourself before opening fire.
     --Kevyn, Schlock Mercenary, August 10, 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 08:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat Aug 10 07:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <20810.032526.5d5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <003c01c23dc2$11fe1850$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <3D55CFD9.21732.1B01A6F@localhost>

On 10 Aug 2002 at 3:25, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
> 
> > Eric Frank Russell never became as famous as many of the other Hugo
> > Winners, but some of his novels have recently been re-issued and are
> > available at Amazon(1). Shadow Man: The life and works of Eric Frank
> > Russell(2) is a good fan site. For some reviews of some of Russell's
> > other works, visit this site(3).
> 
> I hope the re-issue "The Great Explosion". Or a book containing all the
> stories from it. 
> 
> It has some *very* odd societies that any Traveller referree can swipe
> to put on Earthlike worlds. 

I always liked "Stronger than a thousand Gands, and smoother than an 
Earthman's downfall" from that book.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 09:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 08:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <m365ymsna4.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20810.073205.2D4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> "Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> writes:
>> 
>> At the current rates of extinction, somewhere between every six
>> months and two years (depending on which biologist you listen to) we
>> destroy one undiscovered medicine.
>
> We destroy one natural source of an undiscovered medicine, perhaps.
> But we can synthesise just about anything these days.  My best friend
> is a biochemist (well, almost--getting his PhD in a year), and if I
> remember our conversations correctly, most biochemistry these days is
> _not_ `oh, some old wives' tale says this is good; let's try it,' but
> rather `let's see which substances we can squeeze through _this_
> barrier,' i.e. it's pretty much known what most substances are going
> to do; the trick is to get them through cell walls, preserve them
> until they hit the right parts of the body, keep them from hitting the
> wrong parts.

Either he was simplifying things for you or you missed an important
detail.

We know what certain types of molecules do. And we have a good idea of
what making changes to them *might* do.

The reason we need to keep searching is because we are a *long* way
from being able to tell *in advance* what a new molecular structure
might do. 

The number of possible organic molecule structures is sufficiently huge
that checking for biological effects of natural compounds is *much*
faster than trying to synthesize things at "random". 

> The company he's interning with essentially takes a patented molecule,
> developes a thousand variations on it, and sells those variations back
> to the original patenter, IIRC.

Right. They are trying *variations* on molecules that are known to have
desireable biological effects. Partly to improve effectiveness, partly
to lessen undesirable side effects.

But that's a long ways from coming up with "original" molecular
structures that have desirable properties from scratch.

The way cells work is not something we understand at the required level
of detail. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 09:06:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 08:06:19 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <p04330109b977629d272b@[198.123.22.179]>
Message-ID: <20810.074124.2A3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>Sufficiently advanced technology makes life on an airless
>>rockball possible - why would such a species need to preserve
>>its wildlife?
>
> Well, if we assume that the airless rockball is totally self 
> suficient (not just sufficient over a timescale of week or months) I 
> see two reasons...
>
> 1) Economics, a natural ecosystem maintains itself (and hence is a 
> lot cheaper).
> 2) Comfort, just because the rockball is livable, doesn't mean it 
> produces everything people would want.

Also, if a planet *isn't* an airless rockball, but is moderately
livable, killing off the wrong thing (or introducing the wrong thing)
may screw up the ecosystem faster than you can build life support for
the current population, much less evacuate them.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 09:06:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 08:06:38 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020807171434.GA26680@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <20810.074416.5U2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 09:26:27AM -0600, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
>> > At the current rates of extinction, somewhere between every six
>> > months and two years (depending on which biologist you listen to) we
>> > destroy one undiscovered medicine.
>> 
>> We destroy one natural source of an undiscovered medicine, perhaps.
>> But we can synthesise just about anything these days.  
>
> Well, yes, but wouldn't it be a bit easier to synthesise a compound if
> you had it beforehand, instead of trying to duplicate the effects from
> an old tale?

More to the point, unless we already *have* a compound that shows
effects similar to those we want, we mostly have no idea how to design
a molecule to produce a given effect.

>
> -- 
> Mikko Parviainen
> "I quote signatures."
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 09:06:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 08:06:53 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <m37kj2r2wf.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20810.074619.7G6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> "Mikko V.I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi> writes:
>>
>> > We destroy one natural source of an undiscovered medicine,
>> > perhaps.  But we can synthesise just about anything these days.
>> 
>> Well, yes, but wouldn't it be a bit easier to synthesise a compound
>> if you had it beforehand, instead of trying to duplicate the effects
>> from an old tale?
>
> But that's the point: as I understand it we've pretty well exhausted
> the use of old tales and have moved on.  Not that I discount the
> possibility that a remarkable new medicine could be lurking in the
> rainforest; simply that I discount the probability.
>
> As I understand it, science understand the effects of most substances:

We understand the effects of the substances we *know*. As in we know
*what* eefects they have. In many cases we aren't always sure *why*. 

> the trick is to get them where they're needed and not where they're
> not.  Which means designing a molecule which will let a drug slip
> through one barrier but not another.  Which is tricky.

That's true.

We just plain *can't* design a molecule from scratch to have a *new*
effect. We don't understand the inner working of the cell well enough.

We do have a fair amount of understandng of the cell membranes now.
Enough that we have some idea as to what changes might make a molecule
get thru more easily. But even then we have to try them, because we
don't know if the changes will compromise the therapeutic effects.

It does little good to get a variant that gets inside easily if in the
process we make it quit doing what we wanted it to do once it gets
there. Or if we add a nasty side effect.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 09:07:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 08:07:10 2002
Subject: [TML] John Beats The Dead Horse of Imperial Rules Of War...
In-Reply-To: <OFB4C576D0.DD4913B9-ONCA256C0F.00177D95@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20810.075328.3g6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I believe that mercenaries, available and used in the standard way that 
> Trav says they are used, would only be possible under the canonical "Rules 
> of War" scheme. That is, with merc troops being recognised as legitimate 
> forces, with repatriation bonds, etc. Exactly what David Drake writes 
> about - I'm sure he must have cribbed a bit from Traveller.

Actually, Traveller borrowed that from him if I recall correctly.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 09:07:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 08:07:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <OFBDFF848E.6EC3E744-ONCA256C0E.0009E3EB@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20810.075757.1b1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Dear Folks -
>
> Leonard wrote:
>>If we can't follow our own laws except when it is convenient, we are
>>all at the mercy of anybody in a position of authorty.
>
> Welcome to the "rule of men, not laws".

Which is why the Imperium is an interesting place to play in, but not
necessarily to live in.

> BTW, did you receive the Straker Theme I sent over?

Yes, I haven't gotten around to extracting the files yet.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 09:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 10 08:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Uthe
Message-ID: <43.fb9fa6e.2a868beb@aol.com>

In a message dated 8/10/02 5:14:55 AM, tml-request@travellercentral.com 
writes:

>>>>>Where can I find UWP stats for the Uthe subsector? Canon if possible.
>>
>>>>That would be in Foreven Sector? Canon for the entire sector comprises
>one 
>>>>set, out of many, of subsector names, world *positions* and about seven
>>>world 
>>>>UWPs. That's it. Foreven was set aside (other than the above) as "not
>to
>be 
>>>>officially developed" by GDW late in the MT days.  The handfull of
>official 
>>>>bits were published in Imperiallines #1. Some details beyond this can
>be 
>>>>found in the CT adventures in that sector.
>>
>>>Sorry, I believe that you are incorrect.
>>
>>>If I recall correctly the Foreven sector is spinward of the Spinward
>>>Marches. The Uthe subsector is shown in Supplement 3 as being
>>>immediately coreward of the Regina subsector. 
>>
>>Gvurrdon Sector/Subsector O -- Uthe

Ah, of course. Teach me (tho' probably not) to go from memory instead of 
looking it up.  Canon info for Gvurrdon comes from the original CT Vargr 
module, as well as the DGP version for MT. Not a lot to be had, but the CT 
module has the complete map and sector listing (sans names) in the back. 
Tidbits appear elsewhere, I'm sure. Since this IS Vargr space, you may want 
to generate two sets of world names: one for what the Imperium calls a world 
on its charts, and sporadic name changes for some worlds to reflect the Vargr 
tendency to impermanence. I'm sure there's a name set already out there on 
the net somewhere...

As for the Foreven info, while not entirely relevant, it IS something that 
needs to be restated periodically.

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 10:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 10 09:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
In-Reply-To: <232810-22002859195212613@M2W075.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810092517.009fa210@mindspring.com>

At 03:52 PM 8/9/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
>
> >Most of the sound associated with weapons fire is the sound of the powder
> >going off.  The crack of the bullet is negligible.  For example, a silenced
> >.22LR is nearly silent in operation.
>
>Oh, come on, Doug.  You and I both know they're louder than that.
>While you certainly don't need hearing protection around one, they
>sound about like a large balloon being popped.  Even in an open
>outdoor area, I can hear one fire over 50 yds. away.  Now, if
>subsonic ammo is being used, it's a whole different story.

I saw a demonstration of a .22LR bolt-action pistol.  From five feet away I 
could barely detect the crack of the round.  Had I been downrange trying to 
determine where that shooter was, I would have been up a famous creek 
having mislaid my paddle.

> >A 4mm gauss round would make a high pitched *crack* audible only to
> > those near the flight path.
>
>With "near" probably meaning within 200 meters.  (This assumes a
>calm, clear day, across level terrain and with no significant
>background noise to mask the shot.)

Hmm.. I think 200m is a bit far, but unless one of is volunteering to crawl 
across the mud at your rifle club while the other fires suppresed rounds 
overehead...


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 10:53:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 10 09:53:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
In-Reply-To: <200208092111.MKR04077@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810092937.009f60f0@mindspring.com>

At 05:11 PM 8/9/02 -0400, you wrote:

>On a side note, I used to call the M-16 (without a
>suppressor) the Orville Redenbacher, because at a distance,
>it sounds like popcorn in the microwave.  Never really
>sounded like a real weapon to me.

 From what I understand, that made life in Vietnam a bit easier for the 
grunts.  If it sounds like a real weapon, it's our good friend Charles.  If 
it sounds like a toy gun, it's friendlies.

>I can't imagine lasers making any noise at all, unless you
>hit someone.  And if they aren't in the visible light range
>(ideal transmission is apparently in the near infrared for
>work in Earth's atmosphere), you won't see the near miss
>either.

I always gave them a very quiet hiss as the beam incinerated dust/water 
vapor in the beam path.  Any noise at all drowns it out.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 11:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug 10 10:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810092517.009fa210@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B97A97EE.69295%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/10/02 9:29 AM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:

>> Oh, come on, Doug.  You and I both know they're louder than that.
>> While you certainly don't need hearing protection around one, they
>> sound about like a large balloon being popped.  Even in an open
>> outdoor area, I can hear one fire over 50 yds. away.  Now, if
>> subsonic ammo is being used, it's a whole different story.
>=20
> I saw a demonstration of a .22LR bolt-action pistol.  From five feet away=
 I
> could barely detect the crack of the round.  Had I been downrange trying =
to
> determine where that shooter was, I would have been up a famous creek
> having mislaid my paddle.

That is the great advantage of the suppressed, supersonic round.  Even
though it makes noise, it is difficult if not impossible to locate the
shooter.  Particularly since the ballistic crack reflects off objects as th=
e
bullet passes them, making the source of the sound that much more
complicated to identify.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 11:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 10 10:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
In-Reply-To: <000001c2403c$3dbce440$8bdad63f@customer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810093741.009f6d90@mindspring.com>

At 03:03 AM 8/10/02 -0400, you wrote:

>So, my above statements don't accurately reflect the point that I was trying
>to make.  When I talk about the rules sets not meshing, I mean that how
>things work is different from rules set to rules set so that your not able
>to do some things in one rules set that you could with another rules set.
>This doesn't allow for much meaningful discussion of how things work between
>people who are using different rules sets.

Different designers, different design philosophies.  The economic rules 
were always geared to support the small independent trader.  Trying to 
develop the actual level of trade using rules in Merchant Prince or 
MegaTraveller while give bad results.

I avoid mechanic discussions like the plague.  I write for GURPS.  I *try* 
to make my stuff accessible to other players as well, but the mechanics 
will be different.  (Hell, the last Traveller game I actually played in was 
run under CORPS.)

>As for the OTU, I was blissfully happy with it until I joined the TML.  It's
>the various threads on 'How This doesn't work' and 'How does That really
>work?' that have led me to the conclusion that there's something not quite
>right with the OTU.

Of course there is something wrong!  It was designed piece by piece over 
the course of the last 25 years by dozens of different people working for 
different companies and with very different agendas.  It's history by 
committee.  There will be holes all over the place.  That's one of the 
things we do here is fill those holes, hence the current discussion of 
topics like the Fifth Frontier War and Arbellatra.  I can only speak for 
myself, but some of what it said here finds its way both into my games and 
my pay copy.

>Frankly I don't know why I'm making such a fuss.  I've always believed that
>I should do what I want IMTU and I should let everybody else do what they
>want in their TU's.  The OTU is vague enough to allow for many different
>interpretations.  Maybe it was designed to be that way on purpose.

Which is a healthy attitude.  After Ground Forces came out, i received a 
*scathing* email from a customer who quite literally told me he was going 
to complain to Steve Jackson and Marc Miller, through my book in the 
furnace, and demand that I never be hired to write another word for 
Traveller because I was a complete moron who obviously was out to ruin the 
entire game.  Why?

Because I put the Marines into kilts as part of their full dress 
uniform.  One paragraph, in a sidebar.  I wrote the person back and asked 
if he like the rest of the book, and if so, why didn't he ignore it?  I put 
it in for a reason, but if it makes him that mad, simply take a black 
Sharpie and line through the offending phrase.  Simple.  He actually wrote 
back saying that since it was in the book it meant that he *had* to do 
it.  I gave him official aithor dispensation to not have Marines in 
kilts.  Put 'em in clown suits for all I care.

Everything published, or written here, is subject to the interpetation and 
judgement of each player and referee.  Use what you want, change what you 
like, ignore that which annoys you.  This was part of the reason I 
suggested the Landgrab.. get involvement from people so we could see their 
views of this universe.  Nobody *has* to use them, but they make for some 
interesting data points.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 11:23:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 10 10:23:23 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
In-Reply-To: <20020810004141.99222.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810095614.00a07cf0@mindspring.com>

At 05:41 PM 8/9/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
> >The also ran into a wild card: Norris.  You can't predict an
> >unexpected enemy commander that is a bloody genius and has figured
> >out your plan.  I always wondered if Norris' branch of Naval
> >Intelligence hadn't actually learned bits and pieces of the Zhodani
> >plan.
>
>and then failed to disclose those bits and pieces to Sector Admiral
>Santanocheev, to destroy his credibility before the Emperor, and to
>allow the advance of other members of the INI cabal ... how paranoid
>are we?

Oh, I always know Norris was a bit of a Napoleon.  Let's see.  His elder 
brother dies, and he becomes Duke of Regina.  Santocheev, a pompous 
incompetent twit, has information held back by Norris' faction of Naval 
Intelligence, piddles all over himself and is removed in disgrace, allowing 
Norris to become a war hero.  Norris becomes Archduke.  Just me, or do I 
hear Strephon telling Norris "rid me of this bothersome Admiral."


> >The Zho's over-reached themselves, in my opinion.  They didn't
> >properly understand the strength of the Imperium's "defense in
> >depth" concept, nor the tenacity of local forces.
>
>Shtaliajtlas was an idiot, actually, who had not run enough
>simulations to know how to get and hold 300 points before the
>Imperium could react and start rolling the Zhodanis back.

We always played with the optional rules that capitals and high-pop worlds 
were both worth double VP.  Jewell and Rhylanor, 54 and 60VP respectively, 
were juicy targets.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption
abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every
man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the
end of the world is fast approaching."
- Assyrian Tablet, c.2800 BC




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 11:23:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 10 10:23:43 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810100309.00a046b0@mindspring.com>

Way OT, but as a hardcore Giants fan, I just gotta brag.

Last night, Barry Bonds hit his 600th career home run.  Next target: 661.

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
- Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 11:58:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat Aug 10 10:58:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Uthe
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020810084457.00a92520@minn.net>
Message-ID: <20020810175718.96C472793A@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/10/02 at 08:44 AM,  Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net> said:

>At 01:50 AM 8/10/2002 -0500, Eris Reddoch wrote:

>>Gvurrdon Sector/Subsector O -- Uthe
>>
>> I go to <http://zho.bekka.com/data/CLASSIC/> for my OTU data needs.
>><g>
>>
>>Eris

>Actually it's <http://zho.berka.com/data/CLASSIC/>

Oops! That's what I get for sending a post at 0150. <g> 

>The maps aree in ASCII, which is really neat. 

What's neatest, to me, is the data is available in Galactic format, so
I can download them directly to the proper directories and I've (more
or less) added another sector to my copy of the program.  But, yes,
the perl scripts that produce the ascii maps are neat, as are the java
programs. I'd love to see the code!

>Thank you.

You are welcome, but most of your thanks should go to the list owner.

Eris

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 12:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Aug 10 11:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <F52sKj9cMXF1UVkCUVP00005065@hotmail.com>

From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

     Way OT, but as a hardcore Giants fan, I just gotta brag.

     Last night, Barry Bonds hit his 600th career home run.  Next target: 
661.


Mr. Berry,

     With the "Say Hey Kid" as your godfather, you BETTER hit 600 plus!
     Now that the Olde Town Team is well into their patented summer swoon, 
following Mr. Bonds has given me great pleasure of late.  He hit one a few 
weeks ago that went so far there should have been a stewardess on it!
     Oops, gotta go, Hillenbrand just hit a double and the Flops have jumped 
out ahead of the amazin' Twins (downsize THIS Selig!).  With Pedro on the 
mound, one run might be all the Flops need.  Since the All-Star break, it 
seems Martinez can throw a porkchop past a wolf.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen E. "Goddam Red Sox!" Whipsnade

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 12:07:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 10 11:07:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
Message-ID: <200208101806.MMH01558@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry says

>Hmm.. I think 200m is a bit far, but unless one of is 
>volunteering to crawl across the mud at your rifle club 
>while the other fires suppresed rounds overehead...

Had an interesting day a long time ago.  We were at Range 14, 
one of the few known distance ranges at Ft. Campbell, in 
1988.  We took turns shooting an M-21 with suppressor.  While 
the shooter fired rounds in slow fire, we walked along the 
side berm, eventually moving from 100 meters directly behind 
the firer, to 100 meters directly to the right, then moving 
along the right berm, up to the 300 yard berm, moving along 
behind the berm as the rounds went overhead, and back down 
along the left berm.  The change in delay between thump of 
weapon and crack of bullet was extremely instructive.  If 
there are any other echo generating surfaces around, off axis 
between shooter and target, it's very confusing as to where 
things are.

There is still a thump from the weapon (muzzle noise), and 
there's more of a crack from a supersonic 7.62 than we later 
heard from a M-16 round.  I might note that the more modern 
suppressor we saw on the M-16 was a lot better than the 
ancient thing on the M-21.

Tod may shed some light on it, but there didn't seem to be a 
way to take apart the newer models of these things.  They 
didn't have relief valves, either.  On the old suppressor, 
you could see how the front plate of the suppressor was 
screwed in - and how you could possibly remove it.  The 
suppressor (unidentified) that I saw on the M-16 was fatter, 
shorter, and had no obvious means of dismantling it.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 12:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Sat Aug 10 11:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F163A@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Good idea!  Hadn't really thought of that one (yet).  I'll add it to the list of Famille Spofulam stuff I'm working on.
Jesse

> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com [mailto:shadow@krypton.rain.com]
> Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 1:13 AM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
> 
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > I'd been thinking about this for a while, too. A copyright 
> question that I 
> > don't know the answer to is, "Is it 'fair use' if I put a 
> Jesse picture on 
> > ONE T-Shirt for my own use?"
> 
> Actually, given *some* of us in this group, an "I <heart> HE" shirt
> like Ditzie's might do well, and could be sold to the mainstream.
> 
> Which reminds me:
> 
> http://jokeworm.com/AToons/AT280.jpg
> 
> -- 
> Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 12:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug 10 11:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
In-Reply-To: <200208101806.MMH01558@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B97AAB5A.692AC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/10/02 11:06 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> Tod may shed some light on it, but there didn't seem to be a
> way to take apart the newer models of these things.  They
> didn't have relief valves, either.  On the old suppressor,
> you could see how the front plate of the suppressor was
> screwed in - and how you could possibly remove it.  The
> suppressor (unidentified) that I saw on the M-16 was fatter,
> shorter, and had no obvious means of dismantling it.

One of the 'features' of modern suppressors from the big name vendors (AWC,
Gemtech, etc) is that they are sealed.  This is mainly for two reasons.  Th=
e
first (the one the vendor gives) is to keep precision components in
alignment and free from damage.  But the main reason is to protect
proprietary designs.  They don't want you to see how they work, and most
people aren't going to cut apart a $500 dollar, registered suppressor just
to find out.

For the military, this is not an issue.  A suppressor is a disposable item.
For the civilian user, this is another matter.  Suppressors are registered,
and sending them back for service is a bureaucratic nightmare.  Suppressors
do get dirty, and do require cleaning.  IMHO, a suppressor that cannot be
stripped for cleaning is just asking for trouble.  My own designs are simpl=
e
to disassemble, and while not as efficient as some of the 'big name'
suppressors, are infinitely easier to maintain.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 12:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug 10 11:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Stripmime
In-Reply-To: <20809.034100.0C2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <B97AAB99.692AD%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/9/02 4:41 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:

> In mail you write:
>=20
>> Someone on the TML kindly modified Stripmime to allow messages without a
>> content type to get posted on the list (A fix for Leonard).  If that per=
son
>> still has a copy, could they please contact me.  I've lost the original =
that
>> you sent me.
>=20
> If it runs on Intel family CPUs under DOS, Windoze, or OS/2, I'd be
> interested in a copy..

It's written in perl.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 13:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Sat Aug 10 12:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <F52sKj9cMXF1UVkCUVP00005065@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020810190015.25320.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>

> From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
> 
>      Way OT, but as a hardcore Giants fan, I just
> gotta brag.
> 
>      Last night, Barry Bonds hit his 600th career
> home run.  Next target: 
> 661.

Only one of four players in the 600+ club.  It is
truly amazing, but my favorite comment was...

"As amazing as it is, he is still 155 away from Hank. 
Sorta puts Hank's achievement in perspective."

I was really glad for Barry.  Hopefully he can break
615 or 620 this year and stick around for a couple
more and get close to 755.

(BTW, my second favorite line was by Barry himself
giving Nenn his dues and asking the reporters if he
could go home the night he hit 599.)

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 13:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 10 12:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
Message-ID: <6b20b06ad2b2.6ad2b26b20b0@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Date: Saturday, August 10, 2002 7:29 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...

> At 03:52 PM 8/9/02 -0400, you wrote:

<<snip\..
> >
> >With "near" probably meaning within 200 meters.  (This assumes a
> >calm, clear day, across level terrain and with no significant
> >background noise to mask the shot.)
> 
> Hmm.. I think 200m is a bit far, but unless one of is volunteering 
> to crawl 
> across the mud at your rifle club while the other fires suppresed 
> rounds 
> overehead...

Well, if I can ever make it to an Oregon shoot (IOW, if I can avoid yet 
another mobilization long enough to make it up there), I'll volunteer.  
After all, as a paratrooper, I've been taught that I'm very 
bullet-resistant. ;-)

Of course, given my MOS and assigned (_not_ chosen!) target language, 
that could be a couple of decades from now.... :-(


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 14:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 10 13:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <6b60e36b77b9.6b77b96b60e3@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Date: Saturday, August 10, 2002 8:04 pm
Subject: [TML] OT: Barry Bonds

> Way OT, but as a hardcore Giants fan, I just gotta brag.
> 
> Last night, Barry Bonds hit his 600th career home run.  Next 
> target: 661.

Who cares [*].  Barry Bonds will _still_ never be fit to wash Big Mac's 
skivvies.... ;-)

ObTrav: Change the game from baseball to gravball, change the names from 
Mark McGwire and Barry Bonds to something a bit more Travelleresque (or 
not), and you can use the "who's greater?" discussion practically 
verbatim.

[*] Says someone who definitively bleeds Cardinals Red [**].... ;-)

[**] Although I do indeed bleed Cardinals Red when sliced and/or diced, 
I prefer to keep my blood going round and round, rather than spurting 
out in great gouts....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 14:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 10 13:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <200208102021.MML01580@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Paul Walker says
>"As amazing as it is, he is still 155 away from Hank. 
>Sorta puts Hank's achievement in perspective."

I'm waiting for the genetically modified players to come out.

Mind you, I might be 80 years old when that happens.

Then, baseball as we know it will be over, and the far future 
will have begun.

________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 14:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 10 13:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
Message-ID: <200208102027.MMM00032@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

john.groth@us.army.mil  says
>Of course, given my MOS and assigned (_not_ chosen!) target 
>language, that could be a couple of decades from now.... :-(

Just stay above ground.  Every day above ground is a good 
day.  Learning the language is not going to be the hard part 
in the future of RL.  There are just some really wicked NPCs 
out and about...

I didn't find modern hebrew that difficult to learn on my 
own.  I think it would be easier to learn to speak Arabic 
than to read it (I've a smattering of Chinese, but it's all 
conversational - I can't read at all).

Then there's the ancient stuff - the old hebrew and aramaic - 
but if you're a gearhead, this sort of stuff is interesting.

It could be worse.  Imagine trying to find some place alone 
in the barracks so you can practice your Vargr.  Or maybe 
while you're the SDNCO, it's 0200, and you figure you can 
just start barking...

So, was Donald Sutherland speaking Vargr when he played 
Oddball in Kelly's Heroes?
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 14:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 10 13:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day
Message-ID: <200208102032.MMN00082@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Groth has another long night as SDNCO.  Routine, and 
routinely boring.  After all, Imperial peacekeeping duty on 
Garda-Vilis has been going on for over 20 years....

Still, he's trying to keep sharp, and learn new skills.  He's 
hoping to improve his language skill in Vargr.

The corporal sitting next to him is engrossed in the latest 
military tri-D.  Groth goes into the battalion office - 
hopefully he can keep this private.

Unbeknownst to Groth, the S3 is keeping a late night, and 
comes around to the office area.  Groth, engrossed in his 
woofing, doesn't notice the major looking at him.

The major clears his throat.  He knows Groth is working hard, 
but he's never gotten used to the idea of men growling and 
barking like dogs. 

"Carry on, sergeant."

________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 14:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Sat Aug 10 13:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Fire, Fusion, & Steel (TNE version) Thruster question
Message-ID: <20020810204013.8336.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>

No, I'm not gonna ask about T-plates and HEPlaR. ;)

I'm trying to design my very first Missile.  The
EAPlaC is driving me nuts.  The text says (pg 70, top
column 2):

** The values shown for the EAPlaC and fusion rockets
are the _minimum_ thrust ratings per engine.

The number in the table for EAPlaC is 100.  So does
that mean that I have to design the Solid Rocket Fuel
Propulsion part of the missile to handle 100 Tonnes of
thrust?  That (if I'm reading right) would be an
additional mass of 30 tonnes to my tiny missile!?!?!?!

Arggg.  If someone who loves this stuff would be
willing to talk me through the entire design off list,
I'd really appreciate it.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 16:03:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sat Aug 10 15:03:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Settlement date of Vilis
In-Reply-To: <20020810050803.5872.3294.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208102340010.8945-100000@ask.diku.dk>

John T. Kwon writes:
>The Sword Worlds had their first interstellar government, the
>Sacnoth Dominate, in -186, and lasting to -102, when
>rebellion broke it up.

Do you have a subscription to JTAS Online? If so, you may want to take a
look at two capaign settings I've written about the Sacnoth Dominate and
the Five States Era (the period between the rise of new interstellar
societies following the devastation of the War of the First Rebellion and
the formation of the Triple Dominion).

>Garda-Vilis is supposedly settled in -121 as Tanoose.

-121 according to _Broadsword_, -120 according to _Regency Sourcebook_. I
myself goes with the first date. The settlement fails after a few decades.

>I am presuming that Vilis itself is settled before -121.

No, Vilis isn't settled until 240[*]. It is settled from Gungnir.
Garda-Vilis, as it is renamed, is 'settled' from Vilis in 290. Just what
happens isn't clear, but this is the period of the 'Squabbling States' (my
term[**]) which lies between the fall of the Triple Dominion in 217 and
the formation of the military government that unites the Sword Worlds at
the beginning of the 1st Frontier War, so I don't think it will be
difficult to come up with some military or economic upset that makes
Tanoose vulnerable to Vilisian military adventurism. Though Vilis will
need to be an unusually well-organized and unusually successful colony
venture in order to grow to a point where it can impose its will on a
long-established world in just 50 years.

[*] In 300 the Sword Worlds are divided into five interstellar states, in
    400 nine, in 500 eight, and in 589 five.

John T. Kwon writes:

>I'm putting the settlement date of Vilis down as -240, some time before
>the Sacnoth Dominate, and the colonists leaving from Gungnir.
>
>Any thoughts?

See above.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 16:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 10 15:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Settlement date of Vilis
Message-ID: <200208102222.MMP01599@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen says
>No, Vilis isn't settled until 240[*]. It is settled from 
>Gungnir.
>Garda-Vilis, as it is renamed, is 'settled' from Vilis in 
>290. Just what happens isn't clear, but this is the period 
>of the 'Squabbling States' (my term[**]) which lies between 
>the fall of the Triple Dominion in 217 and the formation of 
>the military government that unites the Sword Worlds at
>the beginning of the 1st Frontier War, so I don't think it 
>will be difficult to come up with some military or economic 
>upset that makes Tanoose vulnerable to Vilisian military 
>adventurism. Though Vilis will need to be an unusually well-
>organized and unusually successful colony venture in order 
>to grow to a point where it can impose its will on a
>long-established world in just 50 years.


That's the problem I had with the positive 240 date.  It 
would have to be a societal miracle on the scale of the Meiji 
Period in real life.  Japan going from 16th to 20th century 
in 40 years - and being able to project credible military 
power at the end of that period.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 16:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug 10 15:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <3D558F56.25375.B1AA6F1@localhost>
References: <200208091312.MKB02981@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <3D558F56.25375.B1AA6F1@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020811082836.A12196@freeman.little-possums.net>

Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
> it then travels all potential paths to the observer in variant
> probabilities, the photon then arrives at earth where the act of
> observeration selects which of the variant probabilities becomes
> part of reality.

Or depending upon your interpretation, the observer's state is
correlated with the photon's state.  Some people hold that the act of
observation has no special privileges in determining reality. :)


> See, no violation of causality (a splitting headache maybe, but no
> violation of causality)

Yes; whichever interpretation you adopt, there is no causality
violation.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 16:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug 10 15:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <200208101154.MLV00593@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208101154.MLV00593@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020811083334.B12196@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> But the act of observing forces a change - a change that takes place
> before the observation.

As I understand it, that particular interpretation isn't widely held
among physicists these days.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 16:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug 10 15:53:02 2002
Subject: Armor Schemes (was: Re: [TML] mines)
In-Reply-To: <200208101214.MLV01175@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208101214.MLV01175@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020811085247.C12196@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> If we have some backup power inside the bridge itself, we can make
> tea while waiting for the boarding party - or the second salvo.

I did specify that the jump coils were protected too -- pity the fuel
wasn't.  It's mainly useful if your side survives the engagement,
because you can probably rebuild around the jump drive even if the
rest of the ship is fubar.

Just out of interest, half a million points of advanced TL12 ablative
armour around a command bridge, and small power plant costs 25 MCr and
has a mass of 1400 tonnes.  Not completely infeasible, but massive
enough to impact performance.  The same amount of armour around a
jump-2 drive in a 10k dton ship would mass 20k tonnes and cost 340 MCr.
It would be protecting a 900 MCr piece of equipment.

If the rest of the ship is destroyed, it doesn't do you a lot of good
in a military sense.  If it isn't, you may well be able to activate
your working jump drive and get out of there before it is.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 16:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat Aug 10 15:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810095614.00a07cf0@mindspring.com>
References: <20020810004141.99222.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3D564265.28016.138F15@localhost>

On 10 Aug 2002 at 10:01, Douglas Berry wrote:

> >Shtaliajtlas was an idiot, actually, who had not run enough
> >simulations to know how to get and hold 300 points before the
> >Imperium could react and start rolling the Zhodanis back.
> 
> We always played with the optional rules that capitals and high-pop worlds 
> were both worth double VP.  Jewell and Rhylanor, 54 and 60VP respectively, 
> were juicy targets.

That would make going all the way to Regina more attractive, too.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 17:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat Aug 10 16:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Fire, Fusion, & Steel (TNE version) Thruster question
In-Reply-To: <20020810204013.8336.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3D5643D4.830.1928BE@localhost>

On 10 Aug 2002 at 13:40, Paul Walker wrote:

> No, I'm not gonna ask about T-plates and HEPlaR. ;)
> 
> I'm trying to design my very first Missile.  The
> EAPlaC is driving me nuts.  The text says (pg 70, top
> column 2):
> 
> ** The values shown for the EAPlaC and fusion rockets
> are the _minimum_ thrust ratings per engine.
> 
> The number in the table for EAPlaC is 100.  So does
> that mean that I have to design the Solid Rocket Fuel
> Propulsion part of the missile to handle 100 Tonnes of
> thrust?  That (if I'm reading right) would be an
> additional mass of 30 tonnes to my tiny missile!?!?!?!

Yes it means that the EAPlaC has to produce 100 tons of thrust. However 
note that there's no requirement for it to do so for very long. One of 
those mines I recently posted had a 500kg EAPlaC rocket producing 100 
tons of thrust for about 30 seconds (0.0167 of BL's 30-minute turns).
 
> Arggg.  If someone who loves this stuff would be
> willing to talk me through the entire design off list,
> I'd really appreciate it.

Well send me what you've done and I'll take a look. Missile design is 
fairly stright forward, as you don't have to buy a hull, etc.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 17:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sat Aug 10 16:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <20020808171316.15286.91204.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208110115150.11066-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Alan Bradley writes:
>Gratuitous nepotism goes a long way. I don't see any particular problem
>about [Arbellatra] taking over the family business, especially during the
>Civil War, when warlordism was rife.

My take is that she is herself at least a duchess (or at least the heir
apparent to one). And I think you're right that the pre-Civil War navy was
more subject to favoritism than the USN -- sorry, I mean the Classic Era
IN ;-).

>A good staff will cover a multitude of sins, especially if it includes
>people like Soegz. In fact, Soegz may have been the real genius.

Another candidate for the title 'The real Genius' is Arbellatra's flag
captain Kevin Alderon. So far he is only mentioned in one place, namely
"The Alderon Diary", an Amber Zone I wrote for PYRAMID some years ago (I
know some people do not count that as canonical). He was Arbellatra's flag
captain at the end of the 2nd Frontier War and followed her to the
Imperial Core where he eventually became Grand Admiral of the Fleets and
1st Space Lord. Upon Arbellatra's death in 666 he retired to Kinorb where
he lived out his remaining years in obscurity. About 50 years ago he was
immortalized by an author named D.T. Woodsman who wrote a semi-biographical
bestseller about him and followed up with a dozen sequels (All of which
have since been turned into smash holo-dramas).

Here is a list of book titles and short summaries thereof that I worked
out for the books. Bear in mind that while they are supposedly semi-
biographical, the emphasis is in some cases on the semi. I would not, for
instance, put much faith in the supposed first meeting between him and
Arbellatra ;-)

"Young Lord Alderon"    Lishun 586      Young Kevin Alderon decides to
  					join the Navy.

"Ensign Alderon"        Core 588        Kevin Alderon attends Naval
					Academy on Capital.
|
|Never written                          Sublieutenant Alderon.
|

"Lieutenant Alderon"    Vland 594       Lieutenant Alderon foils Vargr
					spys and meets a young vargr named
					Soegz.

"Liutenant Alderon      Corridor 596    Lieutenant  Alderon  battles Vargr
 and the Raiders"                       raiders along the Corridor border.

"Lt. Cmdr. Alderon"     Deneb 600

"Commander Alderon"     Sp. Mar. 604

"Commander Alderon      Sp. Mar. 605    A   brilliant  young  ensign named
 and the ensign"                        Arbellatra  serves  under Commander
                                        Alderon who promotes  her over the
					head of older ensigns.

"Commander Alderon      Tr. Rch. 613    Commander Alderon protects a client
 and the _ihatei_"                      state in the Outrim Void from Aslan
                                        settlers, eventually finding alter-
                                        native land for the Aslans.

"Captain Alderon"       Sp. Mar. 615    The outbreak of the Second Frontier
                                        War  brings Kevin Alderon his long-
                                        deserved promotion to captain.

"Captain Alderon's      Sp. Mar. 619    Alderon becomes Flag Captain to Ar-
 Flag"                                  bellatra, the newly-appointed Grand
                                        Admiral of the Marches.

Was Kevin Alderon no more than Arbellatra's faithful hatchetman or was he
the guiding hand behind her? Whoever eventually writes the Civil War
sourcebook will have to decide ;-D.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
------------
In my opinion it ought to go without saying that if you work in another
person's universe, he and anyone else authorized to work in said universe
is implicitly permitted to use your work as background material. But I
know it doesn't, so I hereby give my permission for Marc Miller and anyone
else authorized to work in the Traveller Universe to use the above as
background material.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 17:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sat Aug 10 16:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day
In-Reply-To: <200208102032.MMN00082@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020810183827.00a6c100@minn.net>

At 04:32 PM 8/10/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:

>Groth has another long night as SDNCO.  Routine, and 
>routinely boring.  After all, Imperial peacekeeping duty on 
>Garda-Vilis has been going on for over 20 years....
>
>Still, he's trying to keep sharp, and learn new skills.  He's 
>hoping to improve his language skill in Vargr.
>
>The corporal sitting next to him is engrossed in the latest 
>military tri-D.  Groth goes into the battalion office - 
>hopefully he can keep this private.
>
>Unbeknownst to Groth, the S3 is keeping a late night, and 
>comes around to the office area.  Groth, engrossed in his 
>woofing, doesn't notice the major looking at him.
>
>The major clears his throat.  He knows Groth is working hard, 
>but he's never gotten used to the idea of men growling and 
>barking like dogs. 
>
>"Carry on, sergeant."

I have to use this somehow.

Darn it.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     My new first rule of advanced weapon testing: Make a backup 
copy of yourself before opening fire.
     --Kevyn, Schlock Mercenary, August 10, 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 18:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat Aug 10 17:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208110115150.11066-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <20020808171316.15286.91204.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D56548D.12818.5A7CDF@localhost>

On 11 Aug 2002 at 1:34, Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> Alan Bradley writes:
> >Gratuitous nepotism goes a long way. I don't see any particular problem
> >about [Arbellatra] taking over the family business, especially during the
> >Civil War, when warlordism was rife.
> 
> My take is that she is herself at least a duchess (or at least the heir
> apparent to one). And I think you're right that the pre-Civil War navy was
> more subject to favoritism than the USN -- sorry, I mean the Classic Era
> IN ;-).

IMO the IN of CT is actually quite open to various forms of cronyism, 
nepotism, etc. It and the Marines are the two services where a good Soc 
improves your chances and, unlike the Marines, in the Navy your Soc can 
improve during service (all according to Book 1).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 18:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 10 17:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] smallcraft deckplans
Message-ID: <115.158c1370.2a87061b@aol.com>

at http://members.aol.com/exog/myhomepage/small.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 18:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Aug 10 17:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] smallcraft deckplans
In-Reply-To: <115.158c1370.2a87061b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020810201842.019119f8@192.168.0.1>

At 08:13 PM 8/10/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>at http://members.aol.com/exog/myhomepage/small.html

Nice, thanks!



----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Government does not cause affluence. Citizens of totalitarian
countries have plenty of government and nothing of anything
else." -- P. J. O'Rourke, EAT THE RICH
----------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 18:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sat Aug 10 17:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <3D55B1E8.DD9CA93@mail.cswnet.com>

Larsen writes:
>downsize THIS Selig!
A couple more games like todays and he just might take you up on the
offer.
Twinkies    0
Red Sox     2  Final
Since were on the subject, lets here it for the BIG UNIT!
Randy Johnson now 5th place in all-time strike outs!

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 20:32:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Aug 10 19:32:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Land grab webring
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020810223128.0203be30@mail.charter.net>

Any interest in a webring of landgrab sites?



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 00:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 10 23:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Land grab webring
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020810223128.0203be30@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810233001.009e15b0@mindspring.com>

At 10:31 PM 8/10/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Any interest in a webring of landgrab sites?

Yes!  It would encourage me to get a few planets put together and on the web.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 01:04:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Aug 11 00:04:05 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <6b60e36b77b9.6b77b96b60e3@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810233138.009e28a0@mindspring.com>

At 11:12 PM 8/10/02 +0300, you wrote:

>Who cares [*].  Barry Bonds will _still_ never be fit to wash Big Mac's
>skivvies.... ;-)

Big Mac? Sounds familiar..  Ah, yes.  The guy who has *2nd* place on the 
single-season home run record, and on all time..  576?  24 short, Bash-boy!

>ObTrav: Change the game from baseball to gravball, change the names from
>Mark McGwire and Barry Bonds to something a bit more Travelleresque (or
>not), and you can use the "who's greater?" discussion practically
>verbatim.

I once needed a bar brawl to break out, and put two guys discussing 
Rollerball in the corner.  Suddenly, I had one of the NPCs leap up and yell 
"The stinking '85 Dreadnaughts?  Stanton could've taken them sissies down 
single-handed!"  Rebuttal made by way of beer mug.

>[*] Says someone who definitively bleeds Cardinals Red [**].... ;-)

Could be worse, you could bleed Dodger (spit) Blue.

>[**] Although I do indeed bleed Cardinals Red when sliced and/or diced,
>I prefer to keep my blood going round and round, rather than spurting
>out in great gouts....

Yet he insults a Giant in my presence.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry   gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Cry "CHEEBLE!" and let slip the hamsters of war!



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 01:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Sun Aug 11 00:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Land grab webring
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810233001.009e15b0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPIEIFEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Looks good to me, especially as the Rockhead ring seems to be dead.

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
Sent: Sunday, 11 August 2002 2:31 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Land grab webring


At 10:31 PM 8/10/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Any interest in a webring of landgrab sites?

Yes!  It would encourage me to get a few planets put together and on the
web.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 01:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Sun Aug 11 00:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <200208101154.MLV00593@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <006a01c241a6$9af3ca00$1001a8c0@sauron>

John T. Kwon wrote :
> The problem is that the photon changed course billions of 
> years ago, before the Earth existed, before people existed, 
> before the detector existed.  But the act of observing forces 
> a change - a change that takes place before the observation.
> It's as though an observation in the present writes the past, 
> which is what Wheeler talks about.  Results preceding the 
> initiating action.  Wheeler says in one of his books that the 
> act of observing writes and decides the past - it's not 
> really observing, since by changing the methods of 
> observation, we can get a different result.

Wheeler is presuming that the physicists who make the 
observation have any choice in how or whether the 
observation is made.

The concept of "probablity" as described by Wheeler and 
quantum physics, is merely the latitude in the _model_, 
and in our current predictive tools. There is no latitude 
in the real world, merely in the tools we use to describe 
it.

Stating that "the probablility function collapses" or that 
the observation "causes" one probablility to become "real",
is just confusing the map with the territory. 
 
To look at it another way, the "problems" with causality 
are only problems because people are looking at the situation 
arse about face. From the point of view of the observer a 
billion years ago, eveything is completely predictable. 

_Because_ of the photon doing one thing now (in the past), 
it _will_ be observed at a particular time and place and manner 
in the future. 

A violation of causality will only occur if the physicists 
do _not_ make the observation. But they cannot fail to make 
the observation because they are part of the universe, and 
their actions have already been predestined by the particle 
action in the past.

Wheeler's argument is similar to asking you to accept the 
hypothesis that because you are now reading this mail, you 
are somehow influencing me to write it in the past, and that 
if you didn't read it, I would not have written it, rather 
than accepting the simpler hypothesis that you are reading 
it now because I wrote it previously.

<big grin>

Frankie


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 06:27:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Sun Aug 11 05:27:25 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was  COTI website)
References: <20020804060231.5D9A02793A@mail.travellercentral.com> <3.0.5.16.20020804110019.353f3a82@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3D5643B6.2010801@gmx.net>

Douglas E. Berry wrote:

>At 04:21 PM 8/4/2002 +0800, you wrote:
>  
>
>>Was that spam and eggs
>>or spam, spam egs and spam?
>>    
>>
>
>Spam spam spam spam spam spam spam lovely spam, wonderful spam...
>  
>
bloody space vikings...

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 06:34:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug 11 05:34:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
Message-ID: <200208111232.MNT00071@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Frankie says
>Wheeler's argument is similar to asking you to accept the 
>hypothesis that because you are now reading this mail, you 
>are somehow influencing me to write it in the past, and that 
>if you didn't read it, I would not have written it, rather 
>than accepting the simpler hypothesis that you are reading 
>it now because I wrote it previously.

There was a brilliant explanation in the book Timeline, where 
one character tells the other not to resort to explanation by 
statistics or math.  

So, we'll skip the probability functions, etc, and the 
causality questions, and say:

In this particular universe, I'm reading your email.

Wow.  A new acronym to go with RL, IMTU, etc.  ITPU.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 07:14:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sun Aug 11 06:14:07 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was  COTI website)
In-Reply-To: <3D5643B6.2010801@gmx.net>
References: <20020804060231.5D9A02793A@mail.travellercentral.com>
 <3.0.5.16.20020804110019.353f3a82@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020811081452.00a9c100@minn.net>

At 09:00 PM 8/11/2002 +1000, Robert Houghton wrote:
>Douglas E. Berry wrote:

>>>Was that spam and eggs
>>>or spam, spam egs and spam?
>>>    
>>>
>>
>>Spam spam spam spam spam spam spam lovely spam, wonderful spam...
>>  
>>
>bloody space vikings...

Ya sure, you betcha.

Okay fellow travellers, who would you cast in a film version of Space Viking?

I'll start with:

Ian Richardson as King (Goodman) Mikhyl VIII of Marduk.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     My new first rule of advanced weapon testing: Make a backup 
copy of yourself before opening fire.
     --Kevyn, Schlock Mercenary, August 10, 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 09:00:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Sun Aug 11 08:00:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810233138.009e28a0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020811145935.10145.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com>

Are there any gun enthusiasts on the list who would
care to answer this question for me? What's the
purpose of a folding stock besides to make a rifle
easier to conceal? I can see the purpose on a rifle
,but I've seen pistols that had folding stocks, like
some old Mausers.(incredible pistols)What advantage
would this be to a pistol that's already very
concealable? My guess is that it helps stabilize the
gun if it's a semiauto. Anyone care to verify this for
me? Also, how would this translate into Traveller
rules?
thanks.

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 09:13:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Sun Aug 11 08:13:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Strike Cruisers
In-Reply-To: <OF846C706A.217A0A07-ONCA256C02.002526C5@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20020811151201.45130.qmail@web11803.mail.yahoo.com>

I'd say a meson gun allows the strike cruiser to be
> useful both in 
> attacking other ships - especially merchant
> shipping, to cut the logistics 
> tail - AND in the planetary bombardment role.
> 
Speaking of planetary bombardment, does anyone besides
myself expect the pc's to posistion a forward observer
before attacking something dirtside from orbit? Also,
would a forward observer even be necessary for a
spinal mount weapon?

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 09:25:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 08:25:10 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was  COTI website)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020811081452.00a9c100@minn.net>
References: <3D5643B6.2010801@gmx.net>
 <20020804060231.5D9A02793A@mail.travellercentral.com>
 <3.0.5.16.20020804110019.353f3a82@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811111828.01a24b28@192.168.0.1>

At 08:14 AM 8/11/2002 -0500, Leslie Bates wrote:
[snip]
>Okay fellow travellers, who would you cast in a film version of Space Viking?
>I'll start with:
>Ian Richardson as King (Goodman) Mikhyl VIII of Marduk.

Ok, to start, Ben Affleck is not suited to play Lucas Trask....regardless 
of how well DareDevil may do.

Hmmm....I just reread the book based on some comments by Herr Whipsnade.
Let me chew on this one today...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 09:31:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 08:31:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <20020811145935.10145.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810233138.009e28a0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811112434.02696110@192.168.0.1>

At 07:59 AM 8/11/2002 -0700, Daniel Tackett wrote:
>Are there any gun enthusiasts on the list who would
>care to answer this question for me? What's the
>purpose of a folding stock besides to make a rifle
>easier to conceal?

A fringe benefit. The first first time I remember seeing folding stocks was 
in WWII.
Made it less bulk for paratroopers when they where jumping (with a very 
large load of equipment).
Once they where on the ground, the stock was to be extended and used.

>I can see the purpose on a rifle
>,but I've seen pistols that had folding stocks, like
>some old Mausers.(incredible pistols)What advantage
>would this be to a pistol that's already very
>concealable?

Just what is the concealability rating of a broomhandle Mauser? :-)
The stock was to improve accuracy when firing.  It was made it easier to 
control at rapid fire.
Think, pistol/carbine hybrid

>My guess is that it helps stabilize the
>gun if it's a semiauto. Anyone care to verify this for
>me? Also, how would this translate into Traveller
>rules?

FF&S increased the range (and thus accuracy) when a stock was added.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The purpose of the First Amendment's free-speech guarantee was pretty 
clearly to protect political discourse.
But liberals reject the notion that free speech is therefore limited to 
political topics, even broadly defined.
True, that purpose is not inscribed in the amendment itself. But why leap 
to the conclusion that a broadly
worded constitutional freedom ("the right of the people to keep and bear 
arms") is narrowly limited by its
stated purpose, unless you're trying to explain it away? My New Republic 
colleague Mickey Kaus says that if
liberals interpreted the Second Amendment the way they interpret the rest 
of the Bill of Rights, there would be
law professors arguing that gun ownership is mandatory." -- Michael Kinsley 
Washington Post, January 8, 1990
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 09:35:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 08:35:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Land grab webring
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810233001.009e15b0@mindspring.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020810223128.0203be30@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811112842.01a82eb0@192.168.0.1>

At 11:30 PM 8/10/2002 -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
>At 10:31 PM 8/10/02 -0400, you wrote:
>>Any interest in a webring of landgrab sites?
>
>Yes!  It would encourage me to get a few planets put together and on the web.

Ok, that's two yes votes (besides me).  I'm willing to set it up and 
administer it.
It might be nice to have the home page as the downport landgrab page.

I would host it at ringsurf.com, which is run by our friends at Quiklinks, 
who also make GRIP Traveller and T20.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 10:38:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug 11 09:38:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
Message-ID: <200208111636.MOB00195@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Daniel Tackett says
>What's the purpose of a folding stock besides to make a rifle
>easier to conceal? 
It is not primarily to make a rifle easier to conceal.  It is 
to make the rifle easier to take aboard a confined space, 
such as inside a vehicle (inside a helicopter, grav vehicle, 
etc).

If you get the chance, look at some assault rifles with 
folding stocks.  Unless you're riding in a confined space, 
you'll always have the stock unfolded.  It dramatically 
reduces the effective range of the rifle to use it with the 
stock folded.

>,but I've seen pistols that had folding stocks, like
>some old Mausers.(incredible pistols)

A Mauser is not exactly a concealable pistol, with or without 
the additional stock

>What advantage would this be to a pistol that's already very
>concealable? 

I personally don't believe it adds much to a semi auto 
pistol, since pistol cartridges are of a limited range 
already.  You'll see it on some full auto pistol-sized 
weapons, and there it helps a bit, but those weapons are 
already of a questionable accuracy - they are intended for 
very close use (Skorpion, VP70, etc., are very short range 
weapons).  The sight radius on a pistol weapon with stock is 
still really short even when compared to a carbine or assault 
rifle.

I believe that folding stocks are already covered in the 
LBBs, as well as other rule systems such as GURPS.

IMHO, the effect of folding stocks on the time required to 
aim at a target, as well as the maximum aim benefit per unit 
time is best modeled in Phoenix Command Combat System.  None 
of the other systems adequately model this.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 10:40:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug 11 09:40:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day
Message-ID: <4b3d946bd5.46bd54b3d9@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
Date: Saturday, August 10, 2002 11:32 pm
Subject: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day

> Groth has another long night as SDNCO.  Routine, and 
> routinely boring.  After all, Imperial peacekeeping duty on 
> Garda-Vilis has been going on for over 20 years....
> 
> Still, he's trying to keep sharp, and learn new skills.  He's 
> hoping to improve his language skill in Vargr.
> 
> The corporal sitting next to him is engrossed in the latest 
> military tri-D.  Groth goes into the battalion office - 
> hopefully he can keep this private.
> 
> Unbeknownst to Groth, the S3 is keeping a late night, and 
> comes around to the office area.  Groth, engrossed in his 
> woofing, doesn't notice the major looking at him.
> 
> The major clears his throat.  He knows Groth is working hard, 
> but he's never gotten used to the idea of men growling and 
> barking like dogs.

Clearly this officer has spent precious little time around 
infantrymen.... ;-)
  
> "Carry on, sergeant."

I must thank you for an exceptionally amusing mental picture.

Meanwhile, this one _really_ happened over here during my first Sinai 
tour in 1986:

I had purchased a bottle of bubble liquid at the Force Exchange.  One 
fine night, at about 2200 hours, I was standing outside my barracks, 
allowing the wind to blow bubbles (we had a good 20-knot breeze off the 
Gulf of Aqaba that night [and most nights, for that matter]).  The 
battalion command sergeant major, CSM Rath (which is an _excellent_ name 
for a sergeant major) drives by in his jeep.  He stops, looks at me for 
a moment, shakes his head and drives away, no doubt thinking that the 
S-5 section had been in theater a bit too long....




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 10:52:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Coy Krill)
Date: Sun Aug 11 09:52:09 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Dougs MOS and Language (was Audible Signature...)
Message-ID: <200208110950.37885.coy.krill@verizon.net>

Douglas Berry wrote:

>Of course, given my MOS and assigned (_not_ chosen!) target language, 
>that could be a couple of decades from now.... :-(

What's your MOS and target language?

Coy
Former 96C/97E targetting Persian Farsi 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 10:54:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug 11 09:54:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day
Message-ID: <514a852165.52165514a8@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net>
Date: Sunday, August 11, 2002 2:38 am
Subject: Re: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day

> At 04:32 PM 8/10/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> >
> >The major clears his throat.  He knows Groth is working hard, 
> >but he's never gotten used to the idea of men growling and 
> >barking like dogs. 
> >
> >"Carry on, sergeant."
> 
> I have to use this somehow.
> 
> Darn it.

As an aside, this would probably be a great-nephew of (and named for) 
SEH recipient SSG John E. Groth (see GT:GF for details).

SSG Groth (the SEH recipient) didn't live long enough to have children, 
hence no grandchildren.  The SFC Groth who's writing this right now has 
no children either, but that's not due to experiencing first-hand the 
difference between "bullet-proof" and "bullet-resistant"....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 11:56:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sun Aug 11 10:56:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Settlement date of Vilis
In-Reply-To: <20020811071903.23547.84149.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208111946470.3227-100000@ask.diku.dk>

John T. Kwon writes:
>Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen says
>>Vilis will need to be an unusually well-
>>organized and unusually successful colony venture in order
>>to grow to a point where it can impose its will on a
>>long-established world in just 50 years.
>
>
>That's the problem I had with the positive 240 date.  It
>would have to be a societal miracle on the scale of the Meiji
>Period in real life.  Japan going from 16th to 20th century
>in 40 years - and being able to project credible military
>power at the end of that period.

But it's not inconcievable that it could happen. Therefore it happened. It
only remains to figure out just how it happened.

I'm all in favor of correcting inconsistent canonical data, but only if it
is the only way to account for it. IMO this is not the case here. Unlikely,
yes, impossible, no.



Hans



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 12:10:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 11:10:07 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEMCCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>
>     Please see a mental health professional as soon as possible.  While
>Whipsnade's Syndrome is terminal, the final stages may be delayed long
>enough to allow the sufferers a nearly normal life.  The usual prescription
>involves a daily dose of alcohol.

No problem.  Why just last night I attended the Queen's Ball, a party to
celebrate the birthday of the Queen of Thailand.  My friend George, with
whom I had spent the day sailing a 22 foot sloop in San Francisco Bay
(however you remember the weather on the bay in August, you are probably
right, as we had a some of everything, plus our outboard malfunctioned while
we were becalmed), also attended.  We consumed enough alcohol -- primarily
gin and tonics -- to make up for the previous week's abstinence.  (Yes, I
believe my fiancee and her 16.75-year-old daughter were also there -- come
to think of it, I think George was making lewd comments about the daughter
during her dance performance -- but I don't recall too well.)  Umm ... what
was the rest of this discussion about?

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 12:12:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Sun Aug 11 11:12:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <200208111636.MOB00195@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020811181003.52567.qmail@web11804.mail.yahoo.com>

A Mauser is not exactly a concealable pistol, with
> or without 
> the additional stock

Hmm, just my assumtion on the matter. I figured that's
was why people saw off the stocks of shotguns; after
also sawing off the barrel ,of course. It does make it
somewhat concealable, but I of course, I think your
point was that if you want concealment, why a Mauser?
Mausers just came to mind because they're my favorite
gun. I'm no enthusiast, but I've always thought they
were cool. 

> IMHO, the effect of folding stocks on the time
> required to 
> aim at a target, as well as the maximum aim benefit
> per unit 
> time is best modeled in Phoenix Command Combat
> System.  None 
> of the other systems adequately model this.
THanks for the information. I, of course, looked at
the CT rules on stocks, but they gave no specific
benefits,except that it made the gun shorter,and
lighter, and a little more accurate at long ranges.
Unfortunately, I never got FF&S after GDW went under.
Hard to find.  I've never really looked for it online
though.
    I'm not familiar with the Phoenix Command Combat
system. I've heard of it,but that's it. I've seen a
link to it somewhere.

THanks for the information gentlemen.
Dan.
 > ________________
> Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
> Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 12:18:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug 11 11:18:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Settlement date of Vilis
Message-ID: <200208111816.MOD01276@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen says
>But it's not inconcievable that it could happen. Therefore 
>it happened. It only remains to figure out just how it 
>happened.
>

Well, the other thing I'm looking at is the radical 
population size currently noted. It's in the billions.  I'm 
thinking that whatever drove them to leave Gungnir is the 
same thing that drove them to achieve local power very 
quickly, and in a short period of time, grow from what had to 
be less than a million colonists (being generous) to billions.

They're living in a representative democracy. I'm thinking 
that they are not as obsessed with military spending on Vilis 
as they were in the Sword Worlds.  That might also explain 
why they did their Garda-Vilis intervention in the Broadsword 
adventure on such a small shoestring budget.

Over a long time period, with no major battles to fight, 
Vilis might not feel pressure to have high tech advances (on 
Earth at least, most tech innovation is the result of 
military research).  But they might be farmers, factory 
workers, and consumers along the same lines as the Japanese.

Gee, I keep getting that parallel, whether it's the Meiji 
period or current Japan.

It almost makes Frenzie look like Okinawa.  Perhaps the 
reasone that the original people left for Vilis is that they 
were pacifists - they didn't want a military culture.

A mild resurgence of military thought merges with "do good" 
government to intervene in Garda-Vilis.  But there's no real 
budget or large military to do it.

________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 12:29:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sun Aug 11 11:29:10 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt> <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <02081114275201.00604@linux>

>   >If planets are so self sufficient, then why does TNE describe planets
>   >failing because they were cut off from interstellar trade?

	Planets in the Imperium are not self sufficient unless they want to be seen 
as hopelessly isolationist and thus not entirely open to trade or political 
ties with the Imperium.


> Longer-term dependence on a scale of centuries may be a possibility,
> but I personally think it far more likely that if trade was cut, it
> would not take that long to develop local resources to cover or avoid
> the very small shortfall.

	 My position is that rockballs have NO local resources except rocks to 
develope. All other resources had to be imported at some point in time and 
that if they are no longer imported, then they must be renewable. Therefore , 
in my opinion, rockballs are not really viable for hi-pop hi-tech worlds.
I believe that the uwp procedure is broken and can give unreasonable results.

> > Thats all I'm saying... given sufficient stress to the system
> > (irrespective of which particular Traveller setting you use), you
> > can Fail any planet that isn't capable of supporting life without
> > TL9+ intervention.

	 Can humans  guarantee a self sufficient base on mars anytime soon?
On the moon?.  What is the lowest tech level where this could be possible?

> That's rather a guarded and qualified statement.  I'd go further and
> say that given sufficient stress to the system, you can Fail any
> planet at all!

	Yes. given sufficient stress.

> But it won't be due to lack of trade, which was the contention of the
> original post.

	No. It will be because of the upset in the world's economy as they adjust to 
lack of trade. <massive layoffs, crashing markets, etc. >
I find that the biggest concern is wealth distribution. Can the 'haves' 
readjust the economy fast enough that the 'have-nots' won't be driven to 
serious social unrest in order to eat. I am thinking of the French Revolution 
or the Russian Revolution in scope. Maybe those worlds that wouldn't be too 
unduly stressed are all hippie communes where everyone has equal access to 
all goods.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 12:32:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sun Aug 11 11:32:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <3D540E41.1040509@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <20020809190742.B3949@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D540E41.1040509@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <02081011564600.00603@linux>

>
> Each set of rules is indeed a different universe.
>
> Hard Times describes the MT Late Rebellion universe. GT:FT describes the
> steady state 'Strephon walks out of the shower' universe. WBH describes
> an early rebellion/CT universe.
>
> The fact that they all share remarkable similarities in background story
> is mere coincidence ;-)

	They are all in the same universe but just in different time periods.
Therefore... as laws  of physics and economics should be consistant, then the 
rules must all give similar outcomes. In my little 'test', I did not mix the 
rules, just showed what each set would give as possible outcomes. As each 
ruleset seems to concentrate on different aspects, no one set gives a full 
answer. I found that each in turn did give its own insight to the situation. 
One can then pick and choose from the outcomes.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 12:37:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sun Aug 11 11:37:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <02081114040900.00604@linux>


>
> A massive drop in tech level seems *exceedingly* unlikely though.  In
> trade volume terms, it would be like the Phillipines "abandoning" the
> economy of the rest of the world, causing the rest of the world to
> experience a massive economic slump, rioting, civil unrest, and
> reversion to pre-WWI technology.  No offense to inhabitants of the
> Phillipines, but I don't think they prop up the rest of the world.

	That sounds like the tail wagging the dog. Perhaps such effects would occur 
if the entire world abandoned, say, Japan to some degree. The loss of trade 
would affect the world more than it would affect the Imperium.

> Likewise, I don't think the minute volume of trade props up the
> high-pop worlds in Traveller.
>
	I believe that it props up the econmies of the worlds to a greater degree 
than you suggest. According to GDW, any world that was completely 
self-supporting was seen as being dangerously isolationist. The Imperium 
would no doubt put political pressure on the world to be better integrated 
into the imperial economy and the megacorps would put trade pressure on such 
a world in order to promote better manufacturing efficiences in the much 
larger Imperial market. Trade is an enormous carrot or damaging stick when 
dealing with another political entity.

> That's broken.  An average hectare per person assigned to food
> production is ample even with current technology and without trying
> hard.  Tech level 15 should be able to do *much* better.

	If it is broken then I feel all reasonable efforts should be made to fix it.

> > without even considering area for housing or industry or materials
> > production. IT would take a tech 15 arcology 25000 km^2 just to
> > house everyone.

	I forgot the equation for surface area of a sphere so I guesstimated it to 
be about 60% of the area of a cube of equal size, probably wrong. My point 
was to show lack of space for the population, agriculture, manufacturing, 
resources, energy production, etc.  I followed the rules without comparing 
them as yet to the RW.

> That's not a problem, even if you do decide to abandon the surface.
> Traveller fusion power is *really* cheap.  A megawatt would cost no
> more than Cr10/week.  It would certainly take much less power than a
> megawatt per person to grow food.

	My calculations were for a tech15 world as a best case. At lower tech levels 
in could become a problem. 
	I still want to know why anyone would advocate the population of the earth 
being shoehorned on a rock half the size of the moon. The old excuses wear 
thin after a few times.
	Why was trade halted anyway? The only two reasons I know would be in the 
case of war. Or if it was simply no longer profittable for a corp to keep 
sending ships there. Who and why would anyone fund such a thing on this scale?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 12:40:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug 11 11:40:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
Message-ID: <200208111835.MOF00148@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Daniel Tackett says
>    I'm not familiar with the Phoenix Command Combat
>system. I've heard of it,but that's it.

It has an interesting concept called Aim Time.  When you're 
expending actions during a combat round, you can decide how 
many actions you're going to spend aiming.  You can spend 
zero time aiming (not a good idea), or as long as 12 actions 
(for some characters, two or three combat rounds or longer) 
aiming at a target.

A typical pistol (the M1911A1) has an aim time listed as 
follows:

Action   DM
1        -18
2        -11
3        -10
4        -9
5        -8
6        -7

The DM is not against a die roll - it slides you up and down 
a chart.  So don't get excited by the big numbers.

It doesn't do any good to aim an iron sighted .45 longer than 
6 actions, and a person with high skill and speed will reach 
this point in less than a 2 second combat round.  Someone who 
is seeing the weapon for the first time may take more than 
three combat rounds to get to this point.  And you may have a 
high skill, but be fat, old, and slow.

Then the skill DM is applied.  Obviously, if your skill is 
high enough, you can fire on every other action count or so, 
and still hit people close to you, while someone with little 
or no skill is just going to make a lot of noise, or fire 
infrequently.  And if your skill AND speed are high, you'll 
not only fire rapidly, you'll be able to selectively do 
things like the Mozambique drill.

By comparison, an M1 Carbine has the following Aim Time mods.

Action   DM
1        -23
2        -12
3        -9
4        -7
5        -6
6        -4
7        -3
8        -2
9        -2
10       -1
11       0

You'll notice that even if you don't have much skill, if you 
aim long enough, you can get a decent shot with a stocked 
weapon.  Weapons with certain types of scopes will eventually 
achieve a positive DM, while those with red dot sights may 
achieve a positive DM in less time.

If someone has high skill, and a semi-auto sniper rifle, and 
has the targets within a small cone closer than 200 yards 
away, a lot of people are going to get hit in rapid 
succession in specific body parts.

There is also an accomodation for maximum ballistic accuracy 
for every weapon - no matter how good you are, the weapon 
can't be any more accurate than a specific value at a 
specific distance.  

________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 12:43:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sun Aug 11 11:43:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <20810.075757.1b1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20810.075757.1b1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <02081114403102.00604@linux>

> >>If we can't follow our own laws except when it is convenient, we are
> >>all at the mercy of anybody in a position of authorty.
> >
> > Welcome to the "rule of men, not laws".

 "Laws are written in sand, but customs are written in stone"

Mark Twain....supergenius


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 12:45:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug 11 11:45:55 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
Message-ID: <200208111839.MOF00316@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

richard honeycutt says
<snip stuff about trade>

In whatever ways the trade rules may be broken, or not make 
any sense, I still go back to Traders and Gunboats, and the 
comment that the primary reason for interstellar travel is 
trade.

They say clearly that there is a lot of trade.  A lot of 
trade makes sense. 

If space travel was as easy in RL as it is in Traveller, we 
would have colonized a lot of places by now.  And we would 
have trade with the colonies.  A lot of trade.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 12:51:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Aug 11 11:51:05 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Dougs MOS and Language (was Audible Signature...)
In-Reply-To: <200208110950.37885.coy.krill@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020811114253.009e6900@mindspring.com>

At 09:50 AM 8/11/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry wrote:
>
> >Of course, given my MOS and assigned (_not_ chosen!) target language,
> >that could be a couple of decades from now.... :-(
>
>What's your MOS and target language?

My MOS was 11-B.  John Groth  talks to 'em, I just put bullets in their bodies.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 13:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Aug 11 12:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810093741.009f6d90@mindspring.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810093741.009f6d90@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m365yhfc15.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
> 
> I gave him official author dispensation to not have Marines in
> kilts.  Put 'em in clown suits for all I care.

THe 31st REgina Cream-piedeers?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
God saved a few pieces of Eden when he gave us the boot, and one of
the best is the fact that any fruit containing sugar will turn to
booze if you leave it to ferment.
   --http://www.soyouwanna.com/site/syws/basicwine/basicwine.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 13:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sun Aug 11 12:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811111828.01a24b28@192.168.0.1>
References: <3D5643B6.2010801@gmx.net> <20020804060231.5D9A02793A@mail.travellercentral.com> <3.0.5.16.20020804110019.353f3a82@pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20020811081452.00a9c100@minn.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020811111828.01a24b28@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <cvadlu853frpfp0389497526i1dsmdu01f@4ax.com>

On Sun, 11 Aug 2002 11:22:18 -0400, Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net>
wrote:

>At 08:14 AM 8/11/2002 -0500, Leslie Bates wrote:
>[snip]
>>Okay fellow travellers, who would you cast in a film version of Space =
Viking?
>>I'll start with:
>>Ian Richardson as King (Goodman) Mikhyl VIII of Marduk.
>
>Ok, to start, Ben Affleck is not suited to play Lucas =
Trask....regardless=20
>of how well DareDevil may do.
>
><SNIP>

I don't know about that; he's tall, handsome (though I'll have to
trust members of the other gender for a final ruling there), of
aproximately the correct age, and would seem capable of conveying the
sort of grim rage and determination that would be necessary to pursue
his foe for years and at the expense of losing his fief.

Other contemporaries to rule out:  Freddie Prinz, Jr.; Matthew
Lillard; Casper Van Dien (probably killed all future SF efforts by
appearing in Starship Troopers); Vin Diesel (of the current XXX).

Matt Damon, Afleck's childhood friend and frequent co-star, might be
another who could pull off the role.  Other possibilities escape me at
the moment.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 13:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sun Aug 11 12:33:03 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <02081114275201.00604@linux>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt> <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net> <02081114275201.00604@linux>
Message-ID: <2gedluka0l386dc7fqq7dug98nmh03gm7p@4ax.com>

On Sun, 11 Aug 2002 14:27:52 -0400, richard honeycutt
<richard@usisp.com> wrote:

><SNIP>
>
>> But it won't be due to lack of trade, which was the contention of the
>> original post.
>
>	No. It will be because of the upset in the world's economy as they =
adjust to=20
>lack of trade. <massive layoffs, crashing markets, etc. >
>I find that the biggest concern is wealth distribution. Can the 'haves'=20
>readjust the economy fast enough that the 'have-nots' won't be driven to=
=20
>serious social unrest in order to eat. I am thinking of the French =
Revolution=20
>or the Russian Revolution in scope. Maybe those worlds that wouldn't be =
too=20
>unduly stressed are all hippie communes where everyone has equal access =
to=20
>all goods.

I've generally been staying out of this argument, but I have to repeat
the point being made by other.  You are contending that this economy
is so fragile that a 3% drop in the world's economy (which is what
interstellar trade represents), would be sufficient to collapse social
fabric and bring about a general revolution?

I tend to agree with those who feel that the drop in trade alone is
insufficient to explain this fall.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 13:35:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug 11 12:35:12 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Dougs MOS and Language (was Audible Signature...)
Message-ID: <a28d9168.9168a28d@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Date: Sunday, August 11, 2002 9:43 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] OT: Dougs MOS and Language (was Audible Signature...)

> At 09:50 AM 8/11/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >Douglas Berry wrote:
> >
> > >Of course, given my MOS and assigned (_not_ chosen!) target 
> language,> >that could be a couple of decades from now.... :-(
> >
> >What's your MOS and target language?
> 
> My MOS was 11-B.  John Groth  talks to 'em, I just put bullets in 
> their bodies.

Assuming that they hold off on surrendering long enough for you to shoot 
at them.... ;-)

To answer the question, my MOS is 97E4P00AE.  And yes, I too went 
through Fort We-Gotcha when the MOS code was 96C.... ;-)

Now you see why I don't expect to retire when I'm eligible.... :-(


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 13:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug 11 12:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Settlement date of Vilis
Message-ID: <699d3c20.3c20699d@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Date: Sunday, August 11, 2002 8:55 pm
Subject: [TML] Re: Settlement date of Vilis

> John T. Kwon writes:
> >Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen says
> >>Vilis will need to be an unusually well-
> >>organized and unusually successful colony venture in order
> >>to grow to a point where it can impose its will on a
> >>long-established world in just 50 years.
> >
> >
> >That's the problem I had with the positive 240 date.  It
> >would have to be a societal miracle on the scale of the Meiji
> >Period in real life.  Japan going from 16th to 20th century
> >in 40 years - and being able to project credible military
> >power at the end of that period.
> 
> But it's not inconcievable that it could happen. Therefore it 
> happened. It
> only remains to figure out just how it happened.
> 
> I'm all in favor of correcting inconsistent canonical data, but 
> only if it
> is the only way to account for it. IMO this is not the case here. 
> Unlikely,yes, impossible, no.

Well, one possibility is that the Vilis colonists went in "loaded for 
bear" (given a turbulent situation in the Sword Worlds, this seems a 
reasonable approach), with a number of heavily-armed starships as an 
escort squadron.  Fifty years later, the escort squadron is still 
powerful enough to overawe and/or overwhelm a technologically-backward 
Tanoose, thus converting Tanoose to Garda-Vilis.  Once the conquest is 
secure, G-V lacks the spaceborne assets to contest further occupation, 
hence the low-level guerrilla war between Tanoosian nationalists and the 
Vilis occupiers.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 13:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug 11 12:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
Message-ID: <200208111949.MOH00506@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

JR Holmes says
>Other contemporaries to rule out:  Freddie Prinz, Jr.; 
>Matthew Lillard; Casper Van Dien (probably killed all future 
>SF efforts by appearing in Starship Troopers); Vin Diesel 
>(of the current XXX).
>
>Matt Damon, Afleck's childhood friend and frequent co-star, 
>might be another who could pull off the role.  Other 
>possibilities escape me at
>the moment.

Josh Hartnett would be good.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 14:04:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug 11 13:04:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Failed Worlds
Message-ID: <12e.15b8a75b.2a881d23@aol.com>

 >In whatever ways the trade rules may be broken, or not make 
 >any sense, I still go back to Traders and Gunboats, and the 
 >comment that the primary reason for interstellar travel is 
 >trade.
 >
 >They say clearly that there is a lot of trade.  A lot of 
 >trade makes sense.

Depends on what you mean by "a lot".  Consider trade amounting to 0.4% (a 
number cited earlier) of a 10 billion population world's productivity.  Seen 
from the perspective of an individual trader with a 400 ton merchant ship 
then that's an awful lot of goods being flown around, but as a percentage of 
that world's economy it's not world-breaking.

The planet generation system is simply random.  It generates arbitrary 
results and leaves it to the referee to rationalize why things turned out the 
way they did.  This may lead to interesting game plots, but it cannot bear 
the level of scrutiny and examination that is being given it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 14:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 13:25:02 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in
 traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <02081114275201.00604@linux>
References: <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
 <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt>
 <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811161742.01d43ec8@192.168.0.1>

At 02:27 PM 8/11/2002 -0400, richard honeycutt wrote:
>          Can humans  guarantee a self sufficient base on mars anytime soon?
>On the moon?.  What is the lowest tech level where this could be possible?


For the moon, I'd have to say yes, we could if we put our mind to it.
My memory says that there were recent discoveries that makes water 
available on the moon.
<http://physicsweb.org/article/news/2/3/5>
Having a local water supply makes it much easier.
The major effort is convincing a government with the money & tech to do it.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 14:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Aug 11 13:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <20020811145935.10145.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B97C1824.694A5%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/11/02 7:59 AM, Daniel Tackett at haegen2001@yahoo.com wrote:

> Are there any gun enthusiasts on the list who would
> care to answer this question for me? What's the
> purpose of a folding stock besides to make a rifle
> easier to conceal?

Typically, the purpose of a folding stock is not to make a weapon easier to
conceal, but rather to reduce storage space.  This is particularly useful
for people like vehicle crews.

>I can see the purpose on a rifle
> ,but I've seen pistols that had folding stocks, like
> some old Mausers.(incredible pistols)What advantage
> would this be to a pistol that's already very
> concealable? My guess is that it helps stabilize the
> gun if it's a semiauto.

Detachable/folding stocks on pistols are of suspect value.  While it is tru=
e
that it is much easier to accurately aim a shoulder fired weapon, most
handguns benefit very little from the added stability because their range i=
s
effectively limited by their cartridges.

Still, in general a stocked weapon is easier to aim and keep on target than
one held freehand.  An in the case of some weapon, like the artillery and
Naval model P-08 (luger) and the C96 (broom handle) Mauser, there are reall=
y
more like stockless carbines than pistols.  Stocking these weapon can
realistically increase the 'usable' range from less than 50 to about 100
meters.

While this may seem insignificant, one must bear in mind that about 70% of
all infantry combat occurs at a range of less that 100 meters.  For
artillery crews and others who's primary mission is not infantry combat,
this at least gives them a weapon more effective than just a standard
handgun.


> Anyone care to verify this for
> me? Also, how would this translate into Traveller
> rules?
> thanks.
>=20

DMs for folding stocks are given in Book 1 of CT.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 14:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 13:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <200208111949.MOH00506@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811162447.01739e78@192.168.0.1>

At 03:49 PM 8/11/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>JR Holmes says
> >Other contemporaries to rule out:  Freddie Prinz, Jr.;
> >Matthew Lillard; Casper Van Dien (probably killed all future
> >SF efforts by appearing in Starship Troopers); Vin Diesel
> >(of the current XXX).
> >Matt Damon, Afleck's childhood friend and frequent co-star,
> >might be another who could pull off the role.  Other
> >possibilities escape me at
> >the moment.
>Josh Hartnett would be good.

Yes.  Afleck is just a bit too 'pretty' for Trask. Perhaps as Prince Bentrik.

Now...who to play Otto Harkaman?


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 14:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sun Aug 11 13:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811162447.01739e78@192.168.0.1>
References: <200208111949.MOH00506@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020811155443.00aa06c0@minn.net>

At 04:33 PM 8/11/2002 -0400, Mark Urbin wrote:


>Yes.  Afleck is just a bit too 'pretty' for Trask. Perhaps as Prince Bentrik.

Kenneth Branaugh (sp?) as Prince Bentrik.

>Now...who to play Otto Harkaman?

Twenty years ago I would have gone with Clint Eastwood as Harkaman. Need
someone really tall.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 14:56:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sun Aug 11 13:56:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Failed Worlds
References: <12e.15b8a75b.2a881d23@aol.com>
Message-ID: <004001c24179$4a42b850$7400a8c0@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: <Flykiller@aol.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 11, 2002 9:03 PM
Subject: [TML] Re: Failed Worlds


> >In whatever ways the trade rules may be broken, or not make
>  >any sense, I still go back to Traders and Gunboats, and the
>  >comment that the primary reason for interstellar travel is
>  >trade.
>  >
>  >They say clearly that there is a lot of trade.  A lot of
>  >trade makes sense.
>
> Depends on what you mean by "a lot".  Consider trade amounting to 0.4% (a
> number cited earlier) of a 10 billion population world's productivity.
Seen
> from the perspective of an individual trader with a 400 ton merchant ship
> then that's an awful lot of goods being flown around, but as a percentage
of
> that world's economy it's not world-breaking.
>
> The planet generation system is simply random.  It generates arbitrary
> results and leaves it to the referee to rationalize why things turned out
the
> way they did.  This may lead to interesting game plots, but it cannot bear
> the level of scrutiny and examination that is being given it.

The problem is that the trade rules are broken.

No-one seems to be taking into account intra-system trade stopping. If you
rely on resources from asteroid or comet mining, or you are scattered
throught a system in thousands of smaller outposts rather than all clumped
on one rockball,  and spacecraft trade in-system stops as well as out-system
then you are screwed.

Also, monetary value alone doesn't fully represent the reliance a place may
have for a low cost but essential resource not available locally. Say the
atmophere filters on a planet with a badly tainted, but otherwise
breathable, atmoshere require a relatively cheap catalyst that is not
available locally. These filters constantly need replacing, but the cost is
only a few 10's of millions of Cr a year. Suddenly all external trade
stops... as a percentage of your GWP it is a drop in the ocean, but in terms
of the planets viability it is tremendous.

Matt



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 14:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Spencer)
Date: Sun Aug 11 13:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
Message-ID: <B97C1CBE.3DF5%shadowjack@skyhighway.com>

Now, to really capture Starship Troopers in a movie, we should draw from the
time it was written, which was...[pulls out the book, checks the publishing
date]...1959.

I was about to be silly and say, "John Wayne as Raczak! And Elvis Presley as
'little' Johhny Rico!"

But then I stopped to think about it...


John Ford.


The year is 1960. John Ford directing.

And yes, John Wayne as Raczak.

Henry Fonda. (as DuBois?)

James Stewart. (as Captain Frankel?)

All of those guys.

James Dean as Rico. I know, he died in 1955. I don't care.

Ray Harryhausen does the special effects, backed up by the team from
"Forbidden Planet".

Electronic tonalities by Bebe and Louis Barron (also from "Forbidden
Planet"), and marches by the United States Marine Band.

Film it right out there in Monument Valley.

THERE'S a proper book-to-movie adaptation.

Yeah.


Damn. 


I wish I had it on DVD.
-- 
William Spencer         shadowjack@skyhighway.com

"Air conditioning had a fundamental impact on the country, contributing
along with the civil rights movement...If I had to make an estimate, it's
about 50-50 in terms of the importance of the two of them." - Richard
Nathan, Director of the Rockefeller Institute of Government at the State
University of New York


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 15:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bernie McGeehan)
Date: Sun Aug 11 14:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Land grab webring
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811112842.01a82eb0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020811211638.72037.qmail@web13401.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> wrote:
> At 11:30 PM 8/10/2002 -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
> >At 10:31 PM 8/10/02 -0400, you wrote:
> >>Any interest in a webring of landgrab sites?
> >
> >Yes!  It would encourage me to get a few planets
> put together and on the web.
> 
> Ok, that's two yes votes (besides me).  I'm willing
> to set it up and 
> administer it.
> It might be nice to have the home page as the
> downport landgrab page.
> 
> I would host it at ringsurf.com, which is run by our
> friends at Quiklinks, 
> who also make GRIP Traveller and T20.
Feel free to use the Rockhead graphics, etc, if you
like. I've run out of time to do it right.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 15:20:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sun Aug 11 14:20:00 2002
Subject: [TML] Dork Tower # 19, Page 25.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020811155443.00aa06c0@minn.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811162447.01739e78@192.168.0.1>
 <200208111949.MOH00506@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020811161823.00aa3660@minn.net>

Has anyone tried the Solomani Peanut Butter, Bread and Syrup yet?

Or (the Creative Ruling Consciousness help us) IGOR BARS?


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 15:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sun Aug 11 14:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <20020811071903.23547.84149.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208112318180.3568-100000@ask.diku.dk>

I wrote:
>Here is a list of book titles and short summaries thereof that I worked
>out for the books. Bear in mind that while they are supposedly semi-
>biographical, the emphasis is in some cases on the semi. I would not, for
>instance, put much faith in the supposed first meeting between him and
>Arbellatra ;-)

Oops. I left out the last part of the list, without which my post made
considerably less sense. I'm posting the rest here. I usually trim my
quotes as much as possible, but in this case I'll repost the first part of
the list so that it is all in one place.

> "Young Lord Alderon"    Lishun 586      Young Kevin Alderon decides to
>   					join the Navy.
>
> "Ensign Alderon"        Core 588        Kevin Alderon attends Naval
> 					Academy on Capital.
> |
> |Never written                          Sublieutenant Alderon.
> |
>
> "Lieutenant Alderon"    Vland 594       Lieutenant Alderon foils Vargr
> 					spys and meets a young vargr named
> 					Soegz.
>
> "Liutenant Alderon      Corridor 596    Lieutenant  Alderon  battles Vargr
>  and the Raiders"                       raiders along the Corridor border.
>
> "Lt. Cmdr. Alderon"     Deneb 600
>
> "Commander Alderon"     Sp. Mar. 604
>
> "Commander Alderon      Sp. Mar. 605    A   brilliant  young  ensign named
>  and the ensign"                        Arbellatra  serves  under Commander
>                                         Alderon who promotes  her over the
> 					head of older ensigns.
>
> "Commander Alderon      Tr. Rch. 613    Commander Alderon protects a client
>  and the _ihatei_"                      state in the Outrim Void from Aslan
>                                         settlers, eventually finding alter-
>                                         native land for the Aslans.
>
> "Captain Alderon"       Sp. Mar. 615    The outbreak of the Second Frontier
>                                         War  brings Kevin Alderon his long-
>                                         deserved promotion to captain.
>
> "Captain Alderon's      Sp. Mar. 619    Alderon becomes Flag Captain to Ar-
>  Flag"                                  bellatra, the newly-appointed Grand
>                                         Admiral of the Marches.


"Lord Alderon's         Deneb 620       After the defeat of The Outworld
 Choice"                                Arbellatra and her loyal men must
                                        decide whether to attempt to save
                                        the Imperium.

"Lord Alderon and       Core 622        While  Arbellatra  and  Soegz lays
 the Rebel Fleet"                       siege to Capital, Lord Alderon with
                                        a  rag-tag  fleet  must  prevent a
                                        superior  force from coming to the
                                        old emperor's aid.

"Lord Alderon and       Core 622        The final days of the Siege of Capi-
 the Regent"                            tal.

"Lord Alderon and       Antares 624     Lord Alderon  helps  Admiral Soegz
 the Archduke"                          claim his new Archduchy.

"Lord Alderon and       Core 629
 the Empress"

>Was Kevin Alderon no more than Arbellatra's faithful hatchetman or was he
>the guiding hand behind her? Whoever eventually writes the Civil War
>sourcebook will have to decide ;-D.


BTW, someone said that Arbellatra would have to leave the Marches before
the 2FW was over in order to trounce Gustus in 622. I don't think that's
necessary. If the 2FW is over in early 620 and the Civil War in later 622,
A. has some 32-33 months to do the job. From Mora to Vland is 84 parsecs.
That's 28 jump-3s (and only 21 jump-4s, but it's nulikely that A. would
leave behind her jump-3 ships; IMO many of her battleships would only be
jump-3). And a couple of jumps to account for having to jump short. That's
30 jumps. Assume an average of 10 days per jump and A. can get from Mora
to Vland in 10 months. From Vland to Capital is 18 jumps in a straight
line. Call it 21 and it amounts to 7 more months. That leaves 15 to 16
months for A. to negotiate with the Duke of vland, maneuver against
Gustus, and negotiate with the Moot and whoever is in command of Capital's
defenses. Plenty of time.




       Hans Rancke
 University of Copenhagen
      rancke@diku.dk
 ------------
 In my opinion it ought to go without saying that if you work in another
 person's universe, he and anyone else authorized to work in said universe
 is implicitly permitted to use your work as background material. But I
 know it doesn't, so I hereby give my permission for Marc Miller and anyone
 else authorized to work in the Traveller Universe to use the above as
 background material.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 15:58:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 14:58:22 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <02081114275201.00604@linux>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt> <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net> <02081114275201.00604@linux>
Message-ID: <20020812075652.A15923@freeman.little-possums.net>

richard honeycutt wrote:
> 	 My position is that rockballs have NO local resources except rocks to 
> develope.

It's a *system*, not just a planet.  There will almost always be the
usual assortment of asteroids, gas giants, icy moons, comets, and of
course tons of sunlight.  Land a few billion (or trillion) tons of
volatiles when you're building the colony.

What resources *can't* they develop?


You seem to be assuming a rogue world in the depths of interstellar
blackness.


> Therefore , in my opinion, rockballs are not really viable for
> hi-pop hi-tech worlds.

Oh, it's high-tech as well?  OK: add chemical synthesis, genetic
tailoring, automated mining and volatile retrieval operations, fusion
power, and plenty of other capabilities that make it easier still.


> No. It will be because of the upset in the world's economy as they
> adjust to lack of trade. <massive layoffs, crashing markets, etc. >

You're begging the question.  You're *assuming* massive layoffs, etc.
Given that trade accounts for 0.3% of the economy, why such drastic
effects?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 16:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Sun Aug 11 15:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Land grab webring
Message-ID: <200208111700.AA221053246@caddocourt.com>

From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
>Any interest in a webring of landgrab sites?

I would join.

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 16:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Aug 11 15:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
In-Reply-To: <B97C1CBE.3DF5%shadowjack@skyhighway.com>
Message-ID: <20020811220521.39A1327940@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/11/02 at 01:53 PM,  William Spencer <shadowjack@skyhighway.com>
said:

>Now, to really capture Starship Troopers in a movie, we should draw
>from the time it was written, which was...[pulls out the book, checks
>the publishing date]...1959.

>I was about to be silly and say, "John Wayne as Raczak! And Elvis
>Presley as 'little' Johhny Rico!"

>But then I stopped to think about it...

>John Ford.

>The year is 1960. John Ford directing.

>And yes, John Wayne as Raczak.

>Henry Fonda. (as DuBois?)

>James Stewart. (as Captain Frankel?)

>All of those guys.

>James Dean as Rico. I know, he died in 1955. I don't care.

So, go ahead with Presley as Johnny Rico. With proper direction
Presley could have pulled it off, and it might have launched him in a
direction where, in that universe, he'd have never made those awful
movies in the 60's. 

However, 1959/60 was so long ago that you may have fogotten some
people. Tony Curtis was young enough to play the role and hot in the
box office. Anthony Perkins wouldn't quite fit, I don't think, but he
was about to break out with "Pycho", so he would have been a
possibility. However, I think the perfect actor for the role, at that
time, would have been Jeffrey Hunter.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 16:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 15:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <02081114040900.00604@linux>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <02081114040900.00604@linux>
Message-ID: <20020812083508.B15923@freeman.little-possums.net>

richard honeycutt wrote:

[Tim wrote:]
> > No offense to inhabitants of the Phillipines, but I don't think
> > they prop up the rest of the world.

> 	That sounds like the tail wagging the dog.

Yes it does.  That's why I don't believe it would happen in Traveller,
either.  The Phillipines interact about as much with the economy of
the rest of the world as the Imperium interacts with the economy of
most high-pop rockballs.

If you don't think cutting trade with the Phillipines would crash the
economy of the rest of the world, why would you think that removing
the Imperium would crash the economy of a high-pop rockball?



> According to GDW, any world that was completely self-supporting was
> seen as being dangerously isolationist.

If that's in TNE, I'm not interested.


> The Imperium would no doubt put political pressure on the world to
> be better integrated into the imperial economy

If you actually look at the data, you would see that the Imperial
economy consists of a relatively small number of economic powerhouses
(the high-pop systems) with barely-visible threads of trade between
them.  The only "integrated" worlds are the low-pop ones.


> and the megacorps would put trade pressure on such a world

How do you put effective trade pressure on a world that is completely
self-supporting?


> Trade is an enormous carrot or damaging stick when dealing with
> another political entity.

How many times do I have to repeat this?  That is true only in
current-day Earth, where trade for most nations is between 25% and 80%
of their overall economy.

Trade value in Traveller is, literally, *hundreds* of times less.
That's not my opinion, it's in the published rules.

Trade to a high-pop Traveller world is a 3-gram carrot when you're not
really hungry, or a crumbling stick that is more likely to snap off in
your hand than hurt someone else.


> If it is broken then I feel all reasonable efforts should be made to fix it.

Gven my earlier research, 0.4 hectares per person would suffice at our
tech level (TL8).

Probably halve that at TL9 as tailored organisms produce most of the
raw foodstuffs for meat animal production (which takes most of the
space at the moment).  Halving again at TL10 with more efficiency
still.

Drop that by a factor of about 10 at any tech level where land is
substantially more expensive to develop than the benefit you get from
free light energy.


> I forgot the equation for surface area of a sphere so I guesstimated
> it to be about 60% of the area of a cube of equal size, probably
> wrong.

Actually about right.  Did you remember to square the radius?


> My point was to show lack of space for the population, agriculture,
> manufacturing, resources, energy production, etc.

My point was that there is no lack of space.  Planets are *big*.


>  I followed the rules without comparing them as yet to the RW.

How much area do the rules say it takes?


> I still want to know why anyone would advocate the population of the
> earth being shoehorned on a rock half the size of the moon. The old
> excuses wear thin after a few times.

"Shoehorned" is hardly the word.  The average population density would
be less than many *rural* areas on Earth.  Most likely, it started off
smaller and grew.


> Why was trade halted anyway?

I don't care.  I'm interested in the effects, not in the causes.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 16:38:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 15:38:25 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <2gedluka0l386dc7fqq7dug98nmh03gm7p@4ax.com>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt> <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net> <02081114275201.00604@linux> <2gedluka0l386dc7fqq7dug98nmh03gm7p@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020812083720.C15923@freeman.little-possums.net>

JR Holmes wrote:
> You are contending that this economy is so fragile that a 3% drop in
> the world's economy (which is what interstellar trade represents),
> would be sufficient to collapse social fabric and bring about a
> general revolution?

Worse actually, it's typically only 0.3% -- ten times smaller.  Often
less still.

That's why I keep shaking my head in disbelief whenever someone brings
up the drastic effects of loss of trade.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 16:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Aug 11 15:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <20020812083508.B15923@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <02081114040900.00604@linux>
Message-ID: <3D5791CF.9450.889980@localhost>

On 12 Aug 2002 at 8:35, Timothy Little wrote:

> > Trade is an enormous carrot or damaging stick when dealing with
> > another political entity.
> 
> How many times do I have to repeat this?  That is true only in
> current-day Earth, where trade for most nations is between 25% and 80%
> of their overall economy.
> 
> Trade value in Traveller is, literally, *hundreds* of times less.
> That's not my opinion, it's in the published rules.

However it is also in published canon that trade warfare (the Traveller 
Adventure) is practised and effective. Also that commerce warfare is 
practised and is therefore presumeably worthwhile. and that one of the 
megacorps (Tukera Lines) is almost entirely interstellar trade based. 
For it to be a megacorp from this it must be able to generate about the 
same revenue from it as the other megacorps (which effectively own 
entire worlds, remember) do from other forms of activity, much of which 
is probably not trade-based.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 16:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 15:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Failed Worlds
In-Reply-To: <004001c24179$4a42b850$7400a8c0@matt>
References: <12e.15b8a75b.2a881d23@aol.com> <004001c24179$4a42b850$7400a8c0@matt>
Message-ID: <20020812085830.D15923@freeman.little-possums.net>

Matthew Bond wrote:
> These filters constantly need replacing, but the cost is only a few
> 10's of millions of Cr a year. Suddenly all external trade stops...

So you use a different catalyst, and/or develop local means of
production of filters.  Obviously they don't need replacing often
(it's only 0.01 Cr/person/year!), so you can probably continue pretty
much as normal for a few years.

I doubt that it would actually take more than a few weeks to come up
with an alternative.  Even if it costs a *thousand* times as much to
make filters locally as to import, there's still not much impact.
Mild inconvenience, at worst.

Unless you want to posit that this catalyst is for some reason the
only possible thing that will *ever* work, and that it is *impossible*
(not just uneconomical) to develop locally, then I disagree with your
conclusion.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 17:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 16:12:02 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in
 traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <20020812075652.A15923@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <02081114275201.00604@linux>
 <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
 <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt>
 <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <02081114275201.00604@linux>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811190529.0161b050@192.168.0.1>

At 07:56 AM 8/12/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>richard honeycutt wrote:
> >       My position is that rockballs have NO local resources except 
> rocks to
> > develope.
>It's a *system*, not just a planet.  There will almost always be the
>usual assortment of asteroids, gas giants, icy moons, comets, and of
>course tons of sunlight.  Land a few billion (or trillion) tons of
>volatiles when you're building the colony.
>What resources *can't* they develop?

Given a high enough tech level (say B or better), and unrestricted access 
to the rest of the system, using non-starships, they should be pretty much set.

Now if they are TL 6 or 7, and they need access to material (say water for 
example) in the asteroid belt two orbits out...doable, but much more a pain 
the ass unless they have access to higher tech level equipment.

Hmmm....I'll have to start looking, just how many medium to high pop 
rockballs with a TL 9 or under are there?


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 17:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 16:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020811155443.00aa06c0@minn.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811162447.01739e78@192.168.0.1>
 <200208111949.MOH00506@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811192519.0162deb8@192.168.0.1>

At 03:54 PM 8/11/2002 -0500, Leslie Bates wrote:
>At 04:33 PM 8/11/2002 -0400, Mark Urbin wrote:
> >Yes.  Afleck is just a bit too 'pretty' for Trask. Perhaps as Prince 
> Bentrik.
>Kenneth Branaugh (sp?) as Prince Bentrik.

Perhaps...

> >Now...who to play Otto Harkaman?
>Twenty years ago I would have gone with Clint Eastwood as Harkaman. Need
>someone really tall.

Hmmm...Mel Gibson...nah too short and would have been better 5 or 10 years 
ago...
Russell Crow?  I don't think he's tall enough either...
Howie Long?  He's big enough or Dolph Lundgren would do two.  Have to 
darken the hair and add the beard.

Now for Lady Valerie Alvarath .
"She was beautiful-black hair, and almost startling blue eyes, a 
combination unusual in the Sword-Worlds."

Jennifer Connelly gets my vote.  Blue contacts and she's ready to go.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Sucessful Termanation of OPFOR Capabilities, re: Life Sustaining
Operations; Originating from a Departure Line Orientated to the Vertical
of the Main Battle Area."  --  http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 17:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 16:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] arrrrghhh....
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811192519.0162deb8@192.168.0.1>
References: <3.0.6.32.20020811155443.00aa06c0@minn.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020811162447.01739e78@192.168.0.1>
 <200208111949.MOH00506@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811194438.0163fce0@192.168.0.1>

At 07:32 PM 8/11/2002 -0400, Mark Urbin wrote:
>Howie Long?  He's big enough or Dolph Lundgren would do two.  Have to 
>darken the hair and add the beard.

Dolph Lundgren would do too, as in as well.  I'm sure he's done two 
before.  He's a movie star. :-)


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Discord, the Goddess of the Net, was developing a taste for blood sacrifice.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 18:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug 11 17:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] UN PKF Patrol Ship
Message-ID: <3D570097.F564D398@mail.cswnet.com>

Niles Anderson was having a bad day. The asteroid that he had been
surveying turned out to be nothing more than silicate rock. When he
lifted of from the rock, the number two fuel line ruptured and dumped
have of his ships gas out into space. Over the comm he recieved the news
that the bank would forclose on his ships loan if they didnt recieve
payment by next week.

Niles took it all in stride. Pulling out an emergency medical kit, he
shuffled around the contents until he found the vicoden bottle he had
picked up from a hack doctor on Juno. He popped two pills and looked at
the navigational display. A nickle iron asteriod was within range, but
the display showed a thin red line between the ship and the rock, with a
message that flashed:

NAVAL ORE MINING RESERVE #4 PROSPECTING FORBIDEN

Niles looked at the flashing light and contemplated his situation. That
asteroid probably had enough of a deposit on it to pay off the bank, and
what the military doesn't know won't hurt them, he thought.
Hitting the throttle, he accelerated his ship passed the perimeter on a
direct course to asteroid. 

Just as the ship reached the asteroid, another blip appeared on the
display. About the same time, a voice came over the radio comm.

"This is the United Nations Peace Keeping Force. Surrender your vessel
and prepare to be boarded."

Niles was having a bad day.


Ship: UN PKF Patrol Ship
Class: UN PKF Patrol Ship
Type: Patrol Ship
Architect: Dan Roseberry
Tech Level: 8

USP
         PB-0101112-000000-00002-0 MCr 31.675 95 Tons
Bat Bear                       1    Crew: 18
Bat                            1    TL: 8
Cargo: 22.400 Fuel: 1.900 EP: 0.950 Agility: 1 Marines: 15
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops

Architects Fee: MCr 0.317   Cost in Quantity: MCr 25.340


Detailed Description

HULL
95.000 tons standard, 1,330.000 cubic meters, Needle/Wedge Configuration

CREW
Pilot, 15 Marines, 2 Other Crew

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 1G Manuever, Power plant-1, 0.950 EP, Agility 1

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/1 Computer

HARDPOINTS
1 Hardpoint

ARMAMENT
1 Triple Missile Turret organised into 1 Battery (Factor-2)

DEFENCES
None

CRAFT
None

FUEL
1.900 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 56 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
18.0 Small Craft Staterooms, 18 Acceleration Couches, 22.400 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 31.992 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 0.317), MCr 25.340 in
Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
37 Weeks Singly, 29 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
An attempt using HGS to design the UN PKF Patrol Ship from GDW's
Belter. The original ship had a .5g drive; the HGS version can be viewed
as a new improved version. 

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 18:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug 11 17:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Great book
Message-ID: <200208120040.MOR00372@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Just reading the new Project Orion book.

Apparently, the idea was Ulam's.  And he didn't propose it 
for a manned vehicle - it was for a weapon system that could 
accelerate at 10,000g.

Are there any systems (FFS or GURPS) that end up with a 
10,000g missile?
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 18:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug 11 17:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: UN PKF Patrol Ship
Message-ID: <3D570384.D408C23@mail.cswnet.com>

Niles day was so bad that he couldn't even spell HALF right:

>When he lifted of from the rock, the number two fuel line ruptured >and dumped >>>have<<< of his ships gas out into space.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 18:56:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Angus McDonald)
Date: Sun Aug 11 17:56:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
Message-ID: <OF9A9D1E69.C3593D67-ONCA256C12.00808BF3@dnsalias.com>

Forgive a newbie, but wouldn't your point be that cutting trade off with 
the rest of the world would not crash the Phillippines economy?

If that is your point then it is debatable, I'd hate to see what the 
Phillippines would look like without international trade. You'd lose a lot 
of high-value adding services and products (no overseas engineers, 
architects, teachers, economists). Heck, in Traveller you'd probably also 
be restricting their information access (no XBoats), which limits their 
ability to develop and grow. Pretty soon you'd probably be looking at a 
society dropping in TL.

Imagine if their one import was something that everyone depended on, like 
a vitamin, or special plant fertiliser, or air ... not every system is 
going to have a nice wide range of elements, and maybe the cost to get it 
out of the ground/atmosphere will be greater than it costs to import it 
... 
---  from  ---
Angus McDonald
www.falkayn.com




Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
Sent by: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
12/08/2002 08:35 AM
Please respond to tml

 
        To:     tml@travellercentral.com
        cc:     (bcc: Angus McDonald/Dancrai)
        Subject:        Re: [TML] Rockballs and Economy


richard honeycutt wrote:

[Tim wrote:]
> > No offense to inhabitants of the Phillipines, but I don't think
> > they prop up the rest of the world.

>                That sounds like the tail wagging the dog.

Yes it does.  That's why I don't believe it would happen in Traveller,
either.  The Phillipines interact about as much with the economy of
the rest of the world as the Imperium interacts with the economy of
most high-pop rockballs.

If you don't think cutting trade with the Phillipines would crash the
economy of the rest of the world, why would you think that removing
the Imperium would crash the economy of a high-pop rockball?



> According to GDW, any world that was completely self-supporting was
> seen as being dangerously isolationist.

If that's in TNE, I'm not interested.


> The Imperium would no doubt put political pressure on the world to
> be better integrated into the imperial economy

If you actually look at the data, you would see that the Imperial
economy consists of a relatively small number of economic powerhouses
(the high-pop systems) with barely-visible threads of trade between
them.  The only "integrated" worlds are the low-pop ones.


> and the megacorps would put trade pressure on such a world

How do you put effective trade pressure on a world that is completely
self-supporting?


> Trade is an enormous carrot or damaging stick when dealing with
> another political entity.

How many times do I have to repeat this?  That is true only in
current-day Earth, where trade for most nations is between 25% and 80%
of their overall economy.

Trade value in Traveller is, literally, *hundreds* of times less.
That's not my opinion, it's in the published rules.

Trade to a high-pop Traveller world is a 3-gram carrot when you're not
really hungry, or a crumbling stick that is more likely to snap off in
your hand than hurt someone else.


> If it is broken then I feel all reasonable efforts should be made to fix 
it.

Gven my earlier research, 0.4 hectares per person would suffice at our
tech level (TL8).

Probably halve that at TL9 as tailored organisms produce most of the
raw foodstuffs for meat animal production (which takes most of the
space at the moment).  Halving again at TL10 with more efficiency
still.

Drop that by a factor of about 10 at any tech level where land is
substantially more expensive to develop than the benefit you get from
free light energy.


> I forgot the equation for surface area of a sphere so I guesstimated
> it to be about 60% of the area of a cube of equal size, probably
> wrong.

Actually about right.  Did you remember to square the radius?


> My point was to show lack of space for the population, agriculture,
> manufacturing, resources, energy production, etc.

My point was that there is no lack of space.  Planets are *big*.


>  I followed the rules without comparing them as yet to the RW.

How much area do the rules say it takes?


> I still want to know why anyone would advocate the population of the
> earth being shoehorned on a rock half the size of the moon. The old
> excuses wear thin after a few times.

"Shoehorned" is hardly the word.  The average population density would
be less than many *rural* areas on Earth.  Most likely, it started off
smaller and grew.


> Why was trade halted anyway?

I don't care.  I'm interested in the effects, not in the causes.


- Tim
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml





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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 18:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Aug 11 17:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
In-Reply-To: <20020811220521.39A1327940@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B97C5630.694FF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/11/02 3:05 PM, Eris Reddoch at erisred@telocity.com wrote:

>> James Dean as Rico. I know, he died in 1955. I don't care.
>=20
> So, go ahead with Presley as Johnny Rico. With proper direction
> Presley could have pulled it off, and it might have launched him in a
> direction where, in that universe, he'd have never made those awful
> movies in the 60's.

What about Sal Mineo for Johnny Rico?

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 19:04:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 18:04:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <3D5791CF.9450.889980@localhost>
References: <02081114040900.00604@linux> <20020812083508.B15923@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D5791CF.9450.889980@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020812110205.A16290@freeman.little-possums.net>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> However it is also in published canon that trade warfare (the
> Traveller Adventure) is practised and effective.

Oh, it would be highly effective against mid- to low- pop worlds that
aren't high tech.  It just wouldn't be effective against the high-pop
worlds with at least middling tech that we're talking about.

Trade warfare is something that high-pop moderate-to-high tech worlds
can apply against lesser worlds, but is not effective against worlds
of a similar stature.


[Tukera]
> For it to be a megacorp from this it must be able to generate about the 
> same revenue from it as the other megacorps (which effectively own 
> entire worlds, remember) do from other forms of activity, much of which 
> is probably not trade-based.

How many megacorps own entire *high-pop* worlds outright?

I would imagine that any company that outright owns fifty worlds of a
few tens of millions people each would qualify as a mega-corp, with
annual turnover of ten trillion credits or so.  Tukera could match
that if it had a significant percentage of the interstellar shipping
business (which it apparently does).

There can be a huge amount of trade without it being a significant
portion of the economy of each high-pop world.  And there is.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 19:08:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Aug 11 18:08:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
In-Reply-To: <B97C5630.694FF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020812010625.E62B32793F@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/11/02 at 05:58 PM,  Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
said:

>on 8/11/02 3:05 PM, Eris Reddoch at erisred@telocity.com wrote:

>>> James Dean as Rico. I know, he died in 1955. I don't care.
>> 
>> So, go ahead with Presley as Johnny Rico. With proper direction
>> Presley could have pulled it off, and it might have launched him in a
>> direction where, in that universe, he'd have never made those awful
>> movies in the 60's.

>What about Sal Mineo for Johnny Rico?

Not a bad choice. <g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 19:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 18:15:03 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811190529.0161b050@192.168.0.1>
References: <02081114275201.00604@linux> <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt> <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net> <02081114275201.00604@linux> <20020812075652.A15923@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020811190529.0161b050@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020812111400.B16290@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> Hmmm....I'll have to start looking, just how many medium to high pop
> rockballs with a TL 9 or under are there?

I get about 60-70 from a quick database search, counting "medium to
high pop" as population code 6 or higher.  Most of them actually have
pop 6.

Quite a bit less if you restrict the search to systems in the Imperium.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 19:17:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Mellman)
Date: Sun Aug 11 18:17:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Land grab webring
In-Reply-To: <20020811184038.2233.10156.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> from "tml-request@travellercentral.com" at Aug 11, 2002 11:40:38 AM
Message-ID: <200208120114.VAA04947@shell.cinternet.net>

Hey Mark,

I'll throw Belizo into a land grab webring if one forms.  Just tell me
when and how.

 ...........................................................................
  Bill Mellman
  mailto:tml@idbin.com
  http://www.mellman.net/bill/
  http://www.geocities.com/mellmanw/Traveller
 ...........................................................................



 .   Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 11:32:12 -0400
 .   To: tml@travellercentral.com
 .   From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net>
 .   Subject: Re: [TML] Land grab webring
 .   Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
 .   
 .   At 11:30 PM 8/10/2002 -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
 .   >At 10:31 PM 8/10/02 -0400, you wrote:
 .   >>Any interest in a webring of landgrab sites?
 .   >
 .   >Yes!  It would encourage me to get a few planets put together and on the web.
 .   
 .   Ok, that's two yes votes (besides me).  I'm willing to set it up and 
 .   administer it.
 .   It might be nice to have the home page as the downport landgrab page.
 .   
 .   I would host it at ringsurf.com, which is run by our friends at Quiklinks, 
 .   who also make GRIP Traveller and T20.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 19:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug 11 18:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
Message-ID: <59.1fb611e5.2a8868d3@aol.com>

 >> My point was to show lack of space for the population, agriculture,
 >> manufacturing, resources, energy production, etc.
 >
 My point was that there is no lack of space.  Planets are *big*.

A planet 1000 miles in diameter with a population of 1 billion will have 2 
surface acres per person.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 19:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 18:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <OF9A9D1E69.C3593D67-ONCA256C12.00808BF3@dnsalias.com>
References: <OF9A9D1E69.C3593D67-ONCA256C12.00808BF3@dnsalias.com>
Message-ID: <20020812114000.C16290@freeman.little-possums.net>

Angus McDonald wrote:
> Forgive a newbie, but wouldn't your point be that cutting trade off with 
> the rest of the world would not crash the Phillippines economy?

Welcome to the list :)

No, that's not my point at all.  Trade with the Phillipines is about
the same proportion of the world economy as Imperial trade is to a
high-pop world's economy.  If it makes it easier for you, you could
think of the Phillipines as being the starport.

The trade value for high-pop worlds in Traveller is so low that there
are no Earthly examples of a nation that is so isolated.


>  I'd hate to see what the Phillippines would look like without
> international trade.

Yes, the economy around the starport would probably crash.  That
wouldn't devastate the rest of the world though.


> maybe the cost to get it out of the ground/atmosphere will be
> greater than it costs to import it

Yes, that's an argument for a cut in the 0.3% trade leading to maybe a
3% drop in the system's economy.  Not a 90% drop though, nor a
sure-fire recipe for massive layoffs, rioting and revolution.

In fact, in your scenario it might lead to a brief surge in the local
economy.  What used to be unloaded by a few starport workers now needs
more labour to develop.  Less efficient compared to importing it, yes
-- but if you say it's vital, it will be done.  The research and
development required could actually have a net beneficial effect in
other areas as well.

I'm not saying it *will* be beneficial, but it's certainly far from
clear that it will be highly detrimental even if the resource they
import is vital.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 19:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 18:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <59.1fb611e5.2a8868d3@aol.com>
References: <59.1fb611e5.2a8868d3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020812114228.D16290@freeman.little-possums.net>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> A planet 1000 miles in diameter with a population of 1 billion will
> have 2 surface acres per person.

Yes, a population density lower than many rural areas of Earth.

It certainly won't be a big planet-spanning city as seemed to be
implied.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 19:49:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 18:49:04 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in
 traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <20020812111400.B16290@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811190529.0161b050@192.168.0.1>
 <02081114275201.00604@linux>
 <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
 <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt>
 <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <02081114275201.00604@linux>
 <20020812075652.A15923@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020811190529.0161b050@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811214634.026feff0@192.168.0.1>

At 11:14 AM 8/12/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
> > Hmmm....I'll have to start looking, just how many medium to high pop
> > rockballs with a TL 9 or under are there?
>I get about 60-70 from a quick database search, counting "medium to
>high pop" as population code 6 or higher.  Most of them actually have
>pop 6.
>Quite a bit less if you restrict the search to systems in the Imperium.

Interesting...Thanks.  I'll have to find one, preferably in the Imperium 
and Land Grab it.
Preferably TL 7 or lower.  That would make things interesting...


-------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
In the US, obesity is a more serious health problem
among the poor than starvation. That's something that
would have been science fiction to anybody who grew up
before, say, 1900, or even 1950
-------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 19:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 18:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Land grab webring
In-Reply-To: <20020811211638.72037.qmail@web13401.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811112842.01a82eb0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811215525.029cdbb8@192.168.0.1>

At 02:16 PM 8/11/2002 -0700, Bernie McGeehan wrote:
>Feel free to use the Rockhead graphics, etc, if you
>like. I've run out of time to do it right.

Are you the owner?
If so, would you mind transferring the ring to me?>



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.new/EWW/
"Treeware" - Manuals and documentation.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 20:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 19:04:02 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811214634.026feff0@192.168.0.1>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811190529.0161b050@192.168.0.1> <02081114275201.00604@linux> <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt> <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net> <02081114275201.00604@linux> <20020812075652.A15923@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020811190529.0161b050@192.168.0.1> <20020812111400.B16290@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020811214634.026feff0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020812120335.E16290@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> Interesting...Thanks.  I'll have to find one, preferably in the
> Imperium and Land Grab it.  Preferably TL 7 or lower.  That would
> make things interesting...

How about Cold Rock, TL 5?  Old Expanses/Vendtup 2829, UWP=E4006A7-5

The Old Expanses are quite a distance from most campaigns though.
I have no data on it beyond what's in the database, unfortunately.
7 million people, no belt, 5 gas giants.  Probably not too warm :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 20:14:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Aug 11 19:14:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Failed Worlds
In-Reply-To: <004001c24179$4a42b850$7400a8c0@matt>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNOEAHEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>  >They say clearly that there is a lot of trade.  A lot of
>>  >trade makes sense.
>>
>> Depends on what you mean by "a lot".  Consider trade amounting to 0.4% (a
>> number cited earlier) of a 10 billion population world's productivity.
>Seen
>> from the perspective of an individual trader with a 400 ton merchant ship
>> then that's an awful lot of goods being flown around, but as a percentage
>of
>> that world's economy it's not world-breaking.
>>
>> The planet generation system is simply random.  It generates arbitrary
>> results and leaves it to the referee to rationalize why things turned out
>the
>> way they did.  This may lead to interesting game plots, but it cannot
bear
>> the level of scrutiny and examination that is being given it.
>
>The problem is that the trade rules are broken.
>
>No-one seems to be taking into account intra-system trade stopping. If you
>rely on resources from asteroid or comet mining, or you are scattered
>throught a system in thousands of smaller outposts rather than all clumped
>on one rockball,  and spacecraft trade in-system stops as well as
out-system
>then you are screwed.
>
>Also, monetary value alone doesn't fully represent the reliance a place may
>have for a low cost but essential resource not available locally. Say the
>atmophere filters on a planet with a badly tainted, but otherwise
>breathable, atmoshere require a relatively cheap catalyst that is not
>available locally. These filters constantly need replacing, but the cost is
>only a few 10's of millions of Cr a year. Suddenly all external trade
>stops... as a percentage of your GWP it is a drop in the ocean, but in
terms
>of the planets viability it is tremendous.
>

Of course this brings up the fact that the system rules are also broken.
Under First In for example, worlds in a system other than the main world can
have a sizable population. As a matter of fact each world in the system can
have a population almost as great as the main world. As a matte fact FI
states that if two worlds in a system have the same population then the main
world is the one in the star's life zone.

What this does is dilute the GNP of each and every system, making the BTN as
calculated using the Trade rules in Far Trader an even smaller. Fewer dtons
of cargo and fewer passengers as a percent of a ***system's*** economy.

There is a fix that would allow the number as published to be used. That is
to count both the population and trade numbers as representative of the
system instead of the main world. Trade classification modifiers, which are
related directly to the main world, should not be a problem, because the
main world will generally be the best world in the system for habitation. No
other world in the system should be in a position to get better modifiers
than the main world.

This has other aspects as well, which could be useful. Balkanized
**systems**, as opposed to worlds, would be possible, opening up tickets for
those spacer merc units described in SM. If the whole system is occupied (as
is likely for a space faring civilization) then the Highport could be in the
out skirts of the system, to better reduce jump masking and minimize the
time ships spend enroute to the starport. Also it reduces the load on some
of those really high population worlds. The population could be spread out
over a number of planets in the system, reducing the load on the individual
world to something more reasonable.

Thoughts?

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 20:15:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Aug 11 19:15:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <20020812114228.D16290@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEAIEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

So perhaps the problem is that the GT trade rules, in particular, work
better for places like the Spinward Marches when you're talking about trade
done by Free Traders, than they do for High Pop worlds in the interior
joined together by megamerchants.

So what's the cutoff here? How much trade is necessary to make the back
story of collapsing economies, riots and loss of tech level when trade is
interrupted plausible?


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 20:19:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 19:19:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Great book
In-Reply-To: <200208120040.MOR00372@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208120040.MOR00372@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020812121739.F16290@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> Are there any systems (FFS or GURPS) that end up with a 10,000g
> missile?

Technically GURPS solid rockets have no upper limit on their peak
acceleration -- but their burn duration will be very short.

It really wimps out on Orion drive acceleration though, since the
system described is probably based on the assumption of a manned
vehicle.

10000 gee acceleration is a *lot*.  What sort of materials can take
that much stress in a macroscopic object?  Even a block of solid steel
is likely to rupture.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 20:21:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Aug 11 19:21:10 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in  traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811214634.026feff0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNIEAJEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

Of course part of this goes back to what does TL mean. Any world which is a
member of the Imperium, and does not have its educational system purposely
dumbed down (by, let us say, a religious theocracy, for example) should be
teaching (G)TL12 science and technology in their educational system. This
makes it much more unlikely that TL will drop as the result of isolation.

As an aside, I noticed that in the early JTAS almost every low TL world
described as part of an adventure is explained as being a newly rediscovered
remnant of the Long Night. It would seem that the coexistence of low tech
and high tech worlds with trade for half a dozen centuries was not an
original fixture of the OTU.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 20:26:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 19:26:25 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in
 traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <20020812120335.E16290@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811214634.026feff0@192.168.0.1>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020811190529.0161b050@192.168.0.1>
 <02081114275201.00604@linux>
 <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
 <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt>
 <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <02081114275201.00604@linux>
 <20020812075652.A15923@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020811190529.0161b050@192.168.0.1>
 <20020812111400.B16290@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020811214634.026feff0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811221941.0296bbc8@192.168.0.1>

At 12:03 PM 8/12/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
> > Interesting...Thanks.  I'll have to find one, preferably in the
> > Imperium and Land Grab it.  Preferably TL 7 or lower.  That would
> > make things interesting...
>
>How about Cold Rock, TL 5?  Old Expanses/Vendtup 2829, UWP=E4006A7-5
>
>The Old Expanses are quite a distance from most campaigns though.
>I have no data on it beyond what's in the database, unfortunately.
>7 million people, no belt, 5 gas giants.  Probably not too warm :)

Cool. :-)

I'll run it through Heaven & Earth and start figuring it out...
Hmmm...Gas Giant moons would take the place of the asteroid belt for a 
source of mining & water...

Let's dig out my copy of the Traveller Book...TL 5
c. 1900-1939   Early computers...visions of TL 9 and A percomps being used 
to run life support systems...
Keeping old surplus small craft running using local parts...Vac suits that 
look like diving suits...



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
And, isn't sanity really just a one trick pony anyway? I mean, all you get
is one trick: rational thinking. But when you're good and crazy, ooo hoo
hoo, the sky's the limit! - The Tick  http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 20:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Aug 11 19:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <20020812110205.A16290@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <02081114040900.00604@linux> <20020812083508.B15923@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D5791CF.9450.889980@localhost> <20020812110205.A16290@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <1029120923.3d57239b4a4dd@www.paradise.net.nz>

Quoting Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>:

> [Tukera]
> > For it to be a megacorp from this it must be able to generate about
> the 
> > same revenue from it as the other megacorps (which effectively own 
> > entire worlds, remember) do from other forms of activity, much of
> which 
> > is probably not trade-based.
> 
> How many megacorps own entire *high-pop* worlds outright?
> 
> I would imagine that any company that outright owns fifty worlds of a
> few tens of millions people each would qualify as a mega-corp, with
> annual turnover of ten trillion credits or so. Tukera could match
> that if it had a significant percentage of the interstellar shipping
> business (which it apparently does).
> 
> There can be a huge amount of trade without it being a significant
> portion of the economy of each high-pop world. And there is.

If that were the case the _real_ megacorps would be the companies that settled 
for being highly active in the internal economies of a few hi-pop worlds, and 
treated the trade between them as incidental. If interstellar trade is only 
0.3% of a world's total economy even a company like Tukera wouldn't compare to 
a large corporation on a hi-pop world that had subsidiaries and branches 
throughout a populous sub-sector.

I suggest that the easier answer is that Far Trader is simply wrong. Older 
canon in Hard Times, The Traveller Adventure, and other sources dealing with 
Trav history (including some you're not interested in - TNE, etc.) say that 
trade is very important to worlds. The whole premise for the 3I is that its 
guarantee of good interstellar trade conditions was very attractive to most 
worlds. If trade is so unimportant to the major worlds of the 3I why did so 
mnay join willingly?

-- 
Rupert Boleyn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 21:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Angus McDonald)
Date: Sun Aug 11 20:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
Message-ID: <OFED183D4C.6BA32B37-ONCA256C13.000A8F10@dnsalias.com>

>>>
No, that's not my point at all.  Trade with the Phillipines is about
the same proportion of the world economy as Imperial trade is to a
high-pop world's economy.  If it makes it easier for you, you could
think of the Phillipines as being the starport.
<<<
Aah ... I see (said the blind man). It would still be better to look at 
somewhere that is more vital to the world economy, a source of high 
technology, perhaps Japan? Interstellar trade, if it exists at all, will 
either be high-value good for high-value good, or low-value bulk goods for 
high-value goods. I can imagine a planet sending it's mineral resources 
offworld (especially if radioactives) in return for a small amount of 
high-value offworld goods. The effect of cutting that off? You'd probably 
bankrupt the mining companies, inconvenience people relying on the 
offworld products and perhaps cause a lot of civil unrest (why'd I lose my 
lucrative mining job?).

>>>
The trade value for high-pop worlds in Traveller is so low that there
are no Earthly examples of a nation that is so isolated.

>  I'd hate to see what the Phillippines would look like without
> international trade.

Yes, the economy around the starport would probably crash.  That
wouldn't devastate the rest of the world though.

> maybe the cost to get it out of the ground/atmosphere will be
> greater than it costs to import it

Yes, that's an argument for a cut in the 0.3% trade leading to maybe a
3% drop in the system's economy.  Not a 90% drop though, nor a
sure-fire recipe for massive layoffs, rioting and revolution.
<<<
A lot of this depends upon the Traveller trade rules, and whether your 
hi-pop world relies on imported Imperium high tech devices much. I'm sure 
the President won't mind having to give up his gravcar limo, but if the 
world's main agriculture source requires high-tech to do its work, then 
things could get nasty. It could be nastier if the people that own 
everything are offworlders, you might get a situation where eveyone loses 
confidence in the economy, because the major financial backers from 
offworld have pulled out, taking their plant & equipment with them.

>>>
In fact, in your scenario it might lead to a brief surge in the local
economy.  What used to be unloaded by a few starport workers now needs
more labour to develop.  Less efficient compared to importing it, yes
-- but if you say it's vital, it will be done.  The research and
development required could actually have a net beneficial effect in
other areas as well.

I'm not saying it *will* be beneficial, but it's certainly far from
clear that it will be highly detrimental even if the resource they
import is vital.
<<<

I guess the argument is that a hi-pop world must be pretty much 
self-sufficient in order to survive at all, given that interstellar trade 
is so small. To be hi-pop at all the world must be providing most of their 
own food/water, and _probably_ has a diverse industrial base. The most 
likely change is political (is this where this thread started?) as the 
government steps in to nationalise the offworlder capital base and 
guarantee jobs/survival. You almost certainly would have riots as people 
were fired and lost their jobs, slacking off once the government stepped 
in to put them back at work.

I think IMTU interstellar trade will be more important for most hi-pop, 
hi-tech worlds and very unimportant for hi-pop, lo-tech worlds (especially 
if they have hi-agri). Lo-pop worlds will vary wildly.

---  from  ---
Angus McDonald
www.falkayn.com

--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
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---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 21:11:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Aug 11 20:11:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Great book
In-Reply-To: <20020812121739.F16290@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <B97C7539.69535%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/11/02 7:17 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:

>=20
> 10000 gee acceleration is a *lot*.  What sort of materials can take
> that much stress in a macroscopic object?  Even a block of solid steel
> is likely to rupture.
>=20
Not likely, since Leupold and Stevens, a scope manufacturer proofs their
pistol scope designs at 10,000 G.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 21:13:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Aug 11 20:13:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Great book
In-Reply-To: <20020812121739.F16290@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <200208120040.MOR00372@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <20020812121739.F16290@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <1029121840.3d5727301b171@www.paradise.net.nz>

Quoting Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>:

> John T. Kwon wrote:
> > Are there any systems (FFS or GURPS) that end up with a 10,000g
> > missile?
> 
> Technically GURPS solid rockets have no upper limit on their peak
> acceleration -- but their burn duration will be very short.
> 
> It really wimps out on Orion drive acceleration though, since the
> system described is probably based on the assumption of a manned
> vehicle.
> 
> 10000 gee acceleration is a *lot*. What sort of materials can take
> that much stress in a macroscopic object? Even a block of solid steel
> is likely to rupture.

I get 70000 odd G as the acceleration of an M16 bullet, so it's doable. Whether 
it's doable outsode a gun barrel or with so,ething that's not a solid block is 
another matter.

-- 
Rupert Boleyn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 21:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 20:18:02 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in
 traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNIEAJEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811214634.026feff0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811231114.029cc008@192.168.0.1>

At 10:14 PM 8/11/2002 -0400, Terry Carlino wrote:
>Of course part of this goes back to what does TL mean. Any world which is a
>member of the Imperium, and does not have its educational system purposely
>dumbed down (by, let us say, a religious theocracy, for example) should be
>teaching (G)TL12 science and technology in their educational system. This
>makes it much more unlikely that TL will drop as the result of isolation.

TL is what the planet can sustain.  There are can, and probably are, Grav 
Based transports, but those are imports, as are the parts to maintain them.
It could be a planet with great religious freedom, but an oppressive 
government.
Transport on planet is under strict government control.  The government 
uses air/rafts and grav limos.
Workers take buses to their factories.  They have to get permit to access a 
train in order to travel to another city.
Maybe they don't need a permit, but the government finds it easier to keep 
track of citizens and their movements if they are limited to lower tech 
transport methods.

They could be using TL C farming equipment.  Expensive imports.  So they 
rely on locally produced TL 7 equipment for other aspects of life.

>As an aside, I noticed that in the early JTAS almost every low TL world
>described as part of an adventure is explained as being a newly rediscovered
>remnant of the Long Night. It would seem that the coexistence of low tech
>and high tech worlds with trade for half a dozen centuries was not an
>original fixture of the OTU.

Depends on where you are.  In the Core or out in one of the "Frontier" sectors.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 21:22:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ken Murphy)
Date: Sun Aug 11 20:22:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style
Message-ID: <F121PeKljq65Rn8P5o70000d29f@hotmail.com>

   Hi gang,
   Over the last little while I had been going over alternate ship combat 
rules for Traveller; cadging bits from here and there in an effort to cobble 
together something a little different from the usual HG or MT ship combat.
   Well, having recently made the jump to our new computer, I discovered a 
file I'd had previously somehow *didn't* make it; having gone the way of the 
Dodo during the transfer of files.
   In any case, it was information from an old Dragon magazine on different 
types of ship's weapons for Traveller.
   I believe the article featured roundshot projectors,infinite repeater 
rail/coillguns,and other bits, in addition to *Disintigrator* weapons. IIRC, 
these things as designed would *disolve* a different volume of displacement 
tons per unit; the amount varying with TL.
   I think there also might've been  Anti-Disintegrator technology of some 
sort; a spionge or filter or something which had X charges it could absorb.
   Does anyone know what I'm talking about and have access to this article, 
and if so, could I get a copy?
   Thanks in advance for any help :)
  -Ken Murphy-

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 21:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug 11 20:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
Message-ID: <3D572D20.9506FD49@mail.cswnet.com>

Nothing to add really, just keep this thread going;
I know its going to give me some detail for my landgrab ;)

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 22:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 21:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Broken Links: Anyone know where they really are now?
Message-ID: <pp6eluc7hj57m61c5ff320m97pc6ntf431@4ax.com>

I just did a maintenance run on Freelance Traveller, and came up with a
bunch of broken links.  Can anyone tell me where these links _should_ be
pointing to at this point in time?

Broken Links:

><http://enterprise.hb.se/~goeran/traveller/> - Gran Damberg's Traveller, the Web Pages.

><http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/Traveller/Rivals of the Third Imperium.htm> - Stuart Ferris's Rivals of the Third Imperium Webring homepage.

><http://home.earthlink.net/~jamstar/traveller/boats.html> - Deckplans mailing list

><http://home.sn.no/~starwolf/HIWG> - HIWG Homepage

><http://merc.travellercentral.com/> - Tod Glenn's La Mercenaire

><http://ouray.cudenver.edu/~lwlguatn/trv.html> - Leroy's (Guatney) Traveller Campaign

><http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/AndySlack/traveler.htm> - Andy Slack's Halfway Station Traveller Page

><http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller> - Michel Vaillancourt's Near Earth Campaign

><http://www.bifrost.demon.co.uk/Gaming/Utils/PlanetStats.html> - Samuel Penn's Planetary Statistics java app.

><http://www.bifrost.demon.co.uk/Gaming/Utils/PlanetStats.java> - Source for above

><http://www.bigbailey.com/vspace> - Mike Linsenmayer's Virtual Space

><http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/BITS_website/Software/QSDS_Demo.sit.hqx> - Rob Prior's QSDS demo HyperCard app

><http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/traveller/> - Peter Miller's Traveller

><http://www.ecafe.org/philadelphia/index.htm> - link to Philadelphia Experiment from Ken Pick's article on tweaking the jump drive

><http://www.et.byu.edu/~jongoff/RPG/Trav.html> - John Goff's TNE Section

><http://www.fas.org/dod-101/sys/ship/names.htm> - Link to detailed information on USN ship names from Ken Pick's article on naming ships.

><http://www.geocities.com/Area51/dimension/7081/4I.html> - Fourth Imperium Working Group webring page

><http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/5776/mtcgsrc.html> - Gregory Svenson's MegaTraveller Character Generator (source code)

><http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/trav2.htm> - Kevin Walsh's Free Trader Beowulf Traveller Web Page

><http://www.iinet.net.au/~mickb> - Michael Bailey's home page (link on his Author page at Freelance Traveller)

><http://www.leonidae.org/traveller/> - Andy Akins's Taneis Down Interstellar Starport

><http://www.metronet.com/~washi/Tas> - Rob and Suzanne Eaglestone's TAS

><http://www.novia.net/~odysseus/index.html> - The Crashland City Downport (owner's real name unknown)

><http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj/Traveller/index.html> Dave's (Golden) Traveller Site

><http://www.schirf.com/traveller> - Paul Schirf's Traveller Page

><http://www.teleport.com/~douglas> - Douglas Glatz home page (also links to pages below this location)

><http://www.travellerguns.com> - Tod Glenn's Mercenaries' Guide to Weapons

><http://www.warships1.com/UScvl22_Independence.htm> - link to page about the USS Independence from Ken Pick's article on the Essex.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 22:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Ayers)
Date: Sun Aug 11 21:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Broken Links: Anyone know where they really are now?
In-Reply-To: <pp6eluc7hj57m61c5ff320m97pc6ntf431@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <001101c241b8$1a172eb0$2f7de40c@loki>

<http://www.bigbailey.com/vspace> - Mike Linsenmayer's Virtual Space

is now the hypercube and a Traveller Ring member at:
<http://www.thehypercube.com/>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 22:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Aug 11 21:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Broken Links: Anyone know where they really are now?
In-Reply-To: <pp6eluc7hj57m61c5ff320m97pc6ntf431@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <B97C8BDB.6954C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/11/02 9:16 PM, Jeff Zeitlin at jzeitlin@cyburban.com wrote:

>=20
>> <http://merc.travellercentral.com/> - Tod Glenn's La Mercenaire

Folded into travellercentral
>=20
>> <http://www.travellerguns.com> - Tod Glenn's Mercenaries' Guide to Weapo=
ns

http://weapons.travellercentral.com

(Couldn't justify paying for another domain name)

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 22:49:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 21:49:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Great book
In-Reply-To: <B97C7539.69535%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020812121739.F16290@freeman.little-possums.net> <B97C7539.69535%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020812144751.H16290@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> Not likely, since Leupold and Stevens, a scope manufacturer proofs
> their pistol scope designs at 10,000 G.

That's impressive, but I was thinking about bigger things when I heard
"missile".  Smaller objects resist acceleration better (square-cube
law again).

A baseball pitcher could really throw it hard against a steel wall and
it would be undamaged, and it would survive a truck being driven over
it?


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 22:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 21:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [www] 11 Aug 2002 - Freelance Traveller Updated
Message-ID: <a9felukt8ja6gtusjbr5u2qqb0kvb1a6tl@4ax.com>

Freelance Traveller, the Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource has
posted its most recent update to http://www.freelancetraveller.com,
and http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller, and our mirror at
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller.

In this update:

 - Minor link fixups have been made throughout the site.  Because of an
   attack of real life, including much stress and a storm that knocked out
   our ability to update the site for a day, this is really a token update.
   The next update will be next week, and will be far more extensive -
   there will be lots of time available to do this next update.

Your questions, comments, and ideas are always welcome at Freelance
Traveller.  Please write to editor@freelancetraveller.com with any and all
of them, or use the feedback form at .../infocenter/feedbackform.html.
Freelance Traveller depends on the good will of Traveller fans both to
visit our site and justify our existence, and to write for us, making our
existence possible.



Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture 
Enterprises, 1977-2000.  Use of the trademark in 
this notice and in the referenced materials is not 
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.freelancetraveller.com
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
editor@freelancetraveller.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 23:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 22:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEAIEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <20020812114228.D16290@freeman.little-possums.net> <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEAIEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20020812150125.I16290@freeman.little-possums.net>

Terry Carlino wrote:
> So what's the cutoff here? How much trade is necessary to make the
> back story of collapsing economies, riots and loss of tech level
> when trade is interrupted plausible?

I would guess trade >= 20% of GWP would be badly affected in general.
Special cases with trade of less than 5% or so might be badly hurt.

Dropping a few tech levels is something I'd normally reserve for
worlds that have the majority of their economy devoted to trade.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 23:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 22:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <1029120923.3d57239b4a4dd@www.paradise.net.nz>
References: <02081114040900.00604@linux> <20020812083508.B15923@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D5791CF.9450.889980@localhost> <20020812110205.A16290@freeman.little-possums.net> <1029120923.3d57239b4a4dd@www.paradise.net.nz>
Message-ID: <20020812151548.J16290@freeman.little-possums.net>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> If that were the case the _real_ megacorps would be the companies
> that settled for being highly active in the internal economies of a
> few hi-pop worlds, and treated the trade between them as incidental.

If they can capture the majority of the economy of those worlds, yes.
Even so, 10% of the trade of ten thousand worlds is still bigger than
50% of any few of them.

Tukera is still a very major player either way.

Of course, I should point out that none of the biggest companies in
*our* world have gross revenues more than 1% of our GWP.


> I suggest that the easier answer is that Far Trader is simply wrong.

I've got no problem with that.  I've been saying so for ages.  I have
far more trade IMTU, I'm just discussing the OTU as depicted by the
published rules because to talk about MTU isn't very useful to others.

I'll also note that not many people agreed when I said that the G:FT
rules were wrong :P


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 23:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Hamill)
Date: Sun Aug 11 22:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure: Frontier Rescue
Message-ID: <20020812053010.6814.qmail@web21501.mail.yahoo.com>

 
 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 23:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 22:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <OFED183D4C.6BA32B37-ONCA256C13.000A8F10@dnsalias.com>
References: <OFED183D4C.6BA32B37-ONCA256C13.000A8F10@dnsalias.com>
Message-ID: <20020812154457.K16290@freeman.little-possums.net>

Angus McDonald wrote:
>  It would still be better to look at somewhere that is more vital to
> the world economy, a source of high technology, perhaps Japan?

For a high-trade Imperium or a low-tech/low-pop world, that would be a
better comparison.  Not for high-pop worlds in the GT Imperium,
though.


> A lot of this depends upon the Traveller trade rules, and whether
> your hi-pop world relies on imported Imperium high tech devices
> much.

The standard GT:Far Trader rules are pretty explicit.  They don't.
Whether the GT:FT rules are a good model is not a question I'm
addressing.


> I think IMTU interstellar trade will be more important for most
> hi-pop, hi-tech worlds and very unimportant for hi-pop, lo-tech
> worlds (especially if they have hi-agri). Lo-pop worlds will vary
> wildly.

IMTU it's the low-tech or low-pop worlds that depend on trade the
most.  High-tech worlds can adapt to produce just about anything.
Low-tech worlds are much less flexible, and low-pop worlds rely on
trade for infrastructure development and maintenance.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 01:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 00:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMEMFCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: William Spencer <shadowjack@skyhighway.com>
>
>Now, to really capture Starship Troopers in a movie, we should draw from
the
>time it was written, which was...[pulls out the book, checks the publishing
>date]...1959.

>THERE'S a proper book-to-movie adaptation.
>
>I wish I had it on DVD.

You know, given recent developments in video technology, in a few years, you
might be able to make that movie yourself.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 01:16:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 00:16:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arbellatra
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEMFCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
>
>IMO the IN of CT is actually quite open to various forms of cronyism,
>nepotism, etc. It and the Marines are the two services where a good Soc
>improves your chances and, unlike the Marines, in the Navy your Soc can
>improve during service (all according to Book 1).

Do real navies have the custom of "wetting down" a new stripe so that it
will stick?  I read a novel once in which a USN officer was promoted while
serving on a ship, and he had to throw a drinking party for all of the other
officers at a nice restaurant at their next port of call (which was in
Spain, as I recall).  He had to take an advance on his next few paychecks to
cover it.  In any event, this could be a fun piece to throw into a Traveller
game.  (And where do you think that Carousing skill comes from, anyway?)

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 01:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Mon Aug 12 00:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <200208111835.MOF00148@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020812074725.29858.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>

Very interesting. Is there a link to a site that
involves Phoenix Command Combat?
Maybe my games would include a bit more combat, if the
system was more interesting. Right now, my games don't
include a lot of combat. My current campaign has been
going on since December, we play about 3 hours every
Mon night and we've only had about 3 combat
situations, since we started. I'm actually a little
proud of that fact, but my players would like to see a
little more combat.
thanks for the info and charts. I may try it out.
Dan.

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 02:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Aug 12 01:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Dougs MOS and Language (was Audible Signature...)
In-Reply-To: <a28d9168.9168a28d@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020812013610.009f5ec0@mindspring.com>

At 10:34 PM 8/11/02 +0300, you wrote:

> > My MOS was 11-B.  John Groth  talks to 'em, I just put bullets in
> > their bodies.
>
>Assuming that they hold off on surrendering long enough for you to shoot
>at them.... ;-)
>
>To answer the question, my MOS is 97E4P00AE.  And yes, I too went
>through Fort We-Gotcha when the MOS code was 96C.... ;-)
>
>Now you see why I don't expect to retire when I'm eligible.... :-(

John, you have to read Tim Powers' _Declare_ first chance you get.  A large 
chunk is set in areas you frequent, and will have you hiding under your cot 
when the wind howls outside.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 03:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Mon Aug 12 02:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style
In-Reply-To: <F121PeKljq65Rn8P5o70000d29f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020812090622.62065.qmail@web11807.mail.yahoo.com>

>    Does anyone know what I'm talking about and have
> access to this article, 
> and if so, could I get a copy?
>    Thanks in advance for any help :)
>   -Ken Murphy-
> 
I have a few really old Dragons. I acquired them
recently, and haven't really read them yet. You
wouldn't have a clue as to which issue, or maybe the
year of the issue?

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 03:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 12 02:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
Message-ID: <150c9d1542de.1542de150c9d@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel Tackett <haegen2001@yahoo.com>
Date: Monday, August 12, 2002 10:47 am
Subject: Re: [TML] Folding stocks

> Very interesting. Is there a link to a site that
> involves Phoenix Command Combat?
> Maybe my games would include a bit more combat, if the
> system was more interesting.

<<snip>>

Have you considered _At Close Quarters_ from BITS?




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 03:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Mon Aug 12 02:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <150c9d1542de.1542de150c9d@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <20020812091323.19972.qmail@web11804.mail.yahoo.com>

> 
> Have you considered _At Close Quarters_ from BITS?
> 
> Sounds familiar, but no, I've never tried it. Who
makes it?
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 04:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Mon Aug 12 03:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Broken Links: Anyone know where they really are now?
Message-ID: <memo.792770@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <pp6eluc7hj57m61c5ff320m97pc6ntf431@4ax.com>
Greetings dear hearts.

Not always a fail-safe, but when a site has disappeared it has often been 
archived on the Wayback Machine.

Go to http://www.archive.org/ and type the URL of the 'lost' site into the 
search box.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.
Snoop of this parish.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 05:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug 12 04:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Great book
Message-ID: <200208121101.MPL01105@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>10000 gee acceleration is a *lot*.  What sort of materials 
>can take that much stress in a macroscopic object?  Even a 
>block of solid steel is likely to rupture.

The components for a 155mm artillery shell are certified to 
100,000g, and have been so since the 1970s.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 05:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Hamill)
Date: Mon Aug 12 04:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure: Frontier Rescue
Message-ID: <20020812111141.33337.qmail@web21505.mail.yahoo.com>

Prologue
20 June, 2346 A.D. 1325 GMT
Leiber IV system
New Wyoming 

The winter culling of the herds was almost over. In
only two weeks the cargo ships that would take the
meat, hides, and other usable parts of what the locals
rerferred to as duffs would arrive. Most families
hadn't yet met their quotas, and skinner to herd boss,
were working around the clock to get finished. Others
were done or nearly so, and would get to New Cheyenne
early, to start the party before the ships arrived.
One of those was the Nguyen family.

Dan Nguyen, herd boss of the family, was organizing
the last of the culling operations when he got a call.
"Hey Bossman, can you spare a second? There's
something I want to show you." Dan grinned, "Sure
Little Mickey, I'll be right over." He turned down the
volume control as his earpiece exploded with curses
and threats. "Little Mickey", his younger brother, was
over 2 meters tall, and massed over 130 kilos, and
really resented being called by his childhood
nickname. Dan walked over to his ATV, climbed inside,
flicked the power switch on, and smoothly accelerated
towards where his brother should be.

When he got there he saw his brother standing next to
one of their hired hands, named Sam. Sam looked to be
in some pain, and was holding his right arm at his
side. "Uh Oh," He thought, "Mike better not be getting
into scraps with the hands again." He got out of the
ATV, and walked between the placidly eating duffs over
to where the two men stood. "Ok, whats going on?" He
asked. Mike looked over to his brother, "Well, I think
I'd better let Sam tell you, I really didn't see the
whole thing, I got here afterwards." Sam shifted his
injured right arm and started talking, "Well it was
the damndest thing, I was starting to put the bolter
up to that duff's head over there," motioning with his
head at a duff nearby grazing, " and the thing lifted
up it's head, looked straight at me, and headbutted
the bolter right out of my hands! The bolter went
flying, and I think the big bastard knocked my arm out
of its socket, cause I can't work it right." Dan
narrowed his eyes and looked Sam over. He didn't look
drunk, and Sam had been with the family for a few
years now, and wasn't the type to lie or exaggerate to
get out of trouble. "I've never heard of a duff doing
anything like that before, ever." "I know Boss, but I
swear that's just what it did!" "Well, if you're sure
about it, maybe we need to look over that duff, and
see if anything's wrong with it." 
Mike had been looking around in the grass during this,
stopped, bent over and retrieved the bolter. "It looks
OK, I'm just going to try it out to see if it works."
Mike walked over to the duff that Sam had picked out.
Dan suddenly got a strange feeling, and called out to
his brother. "Wait a minute, let's check that du..."
He stopped as his brother, hefting the bolter to the
duff's forehead, came face to face with the animal. It
was looking straight at him. Mike and the duff stared
into each others eyes for a moment, and then the duff
started a low rumble in the back of its throat, which
picked up in pitch and intensity to a high scream.
Mike began to back away from the animal, but it was
too late. The seemingly enraged duff charged Mike,
hitting him and tossing him 4 or 5 meters away, where
he lay still, then rushing to the prone man and
beginning to stomp, kick, and bite at him. Sam and Dan
looked on in horror, until Sam noticed the other duffs
in the herd had noticed the attack, and were watching
it and them. "Uh, Boss, I think we'd better..." "
Yeah, you're right Sam, let's get back to my ATV." The
two men began to back away, with some of the duffs
beginning to follow, some of them beginning to make
the same rumbling sounds the first duff did. Dan
looked back to where his brother lay. "Sam, when I
yell run as fast as you can to my ATV, and try to get
some help." "We can both run at the same time,
Boss..." "No Sam! I have to go back for my little
brother. Now RUN!" With that Dan gave Sam a push and
turned back towards where his brother lay. Sam ran as
fast as he could towards the ATV, tears of pain and
fear streaming down his face. He could hear behind him
the screams of the duffs, and the angry cries of Dan
Nguyen. Dan's voice was suddenly cut off with a
painful scream. Then Sam could both feel and hear the
Duffs begin to charge towards him. The fear and
adreniline gave him the power to run the ladt few
steps in a heartbeat. He pulled himself up the two
rungs to the driver's door, opened it up, and pulled
himself inside. Pulling the door shut, he could see
the herd running towards him. He fumbled with his good
hand for the radio. "Emergency! Emergency! Kill Team 2
has an emergency! Oh god, Mike and Dan are dead, and
the d..." As he spoke the enraged duffs struck the
ATV, throwing him into the inside wall, knocking him
out. He didn't wake as they overturned the vehicle, or
when the climbed onto it, crushing it with their
weight. Of course, it was much too late by then.

End Prologue

Thank you to those of you who helped me find GURPS
Modular Vehicles, and GURPS Character Builder. The
above was the prologue to the adventure that I ran for
some new Traveller players this weekend. I will post
the rest of the adventure as short fiction, if anyone
is interested. It went well, and several players
wanted to know if it could continue as a campaign.
Success!
Once again thank you to all the listers who helped me,
and to all those others who by their comments and
ideas on this list helped me start running Traveller
after a long time.

John
jwdh71@yahoo.com  


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 05:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Mon Aug 12 04:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure: Frontier Rescue
Message-ID: <memo.794790@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <20020812111141.33337.qmail@web21505.mail.yahoo.com>
Greetings dear hearts.

I for one would be fascinated to hear the rest of the adventure...

(Preferably in scenario form but no matter.)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 05:46:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 12 04:46:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
Message-ID: <19a45e19f516.19f51619a45e@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel Tackett <haegen2001@yahoo.com>
Date: Monday, August 12, 2002 12:13 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Folding stocks

> > 
> > Have you considered _At Close Quarters_ from BITS?
> > 
> > Sounds familiar, but no, I've never tried it. Who
> makes it?

Written by Doug Berry and James Lindsay and published by BITS, ACQ is a 
combat rules supplement for Traveller.  While ACQ was designed for T4, 
it includes conversion rules for CT, MT, TNE and GT (T20 hadn't been 
published when ACQ came out).  For more info (and/or to order ACQ), 
check out the Warehouse 23 link below.

http://www.warehouse23.com/item.cgi?BITSRACQ

BTW, the BITS site seems to be down.  Or is it jut me...?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 06:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 12 05:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Wanted: FF&S2 Ships
Message-ID: <1aacc61a9e40.1a9e401aacc6@us.army.mil>

~also posted to JTAS~

I'm starting up a variant TNE campaign (set in the Solomani Rim, 
featuring conflicts between the Terran Republic and the Dingir League) 
using T4 rules, and I'm looking for a few ships of 5000 dtons or 
smaller.  I have already designed a number of ships for this campaign, 
but I'd appreciate a few ships designed by someone else.

Thanks in advance!

PS:  I haven't gone through any of the TML Ship Rodeo designs; do any of 
them meet the above criteria (FF&S2, <= 5000 dtons)?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 06:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 05:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Broken Links: Anyone know where they really are now?
In-Reply-To: <pp6eluc7hj57m61c5ff320m97pc6ntf431@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020812082311.0205ceb8@192.168.0.1>

At 12:16 AM 8/12/2002 -0400, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
>I just did a maintenance run on Freelance Traveller, and came up with a
>bunch of broken links.  Can anyone tell me where these links _should_ be
>pointing to at this point in time?
>
>Broken Links:
[snip]
> ><http://www.travellerguns.com> - Tod Glenn's Mercenaries' Guide to Weapons

It's there, but the domain got stolen somehow.  Look under 
www.travellercentral.com.


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"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 06:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 12 05:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The power of the Nobility
Message-ID: <1c089d1c0020.1c00201c089d@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Date: Thursday, July 25, 2002 10:52 pm
Subject: [TML] Re: The power of the Nobility

> >From: Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net>
> >Subject: Re: [TML] Re: The power of the Nobility
> >
> >From what I've read (from a libertarian site) 
> >Voir Dire appears to be a French term for jury
> >tempering.
> 
> A jury should indeed be well tempered:

<<snips definitions of "tempered">>

Sorry, but my first thought upon seeing the word "tempered" was the use 
of that term in Heinlein's _Farnham's Freehold_.  In that book 
"tempered" is synonymous with "castrated."

OTOH, I can think of some well-known jury verdicts that would lead me to 
belive that the jurors involved should be tempered, in order to remove 
them from the gene pool.... ;-)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 06:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 05:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMEMFCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020812082551.01a17e18@192.168.0.1>

At 12:10 AM 8/12/2002 -0700, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> >From: William Spencer <shadowjack@skyhighway.com>
> >Now, to really capture Starship Troopers in a movie, we should draw from
>the
> >time it was written, which was...[pulls out the book, checks the publishing
> >date]...1959.
> >THERE'S a proper book-to-movie adaptation.
> >I wish I had it on DVD.
>You know, given recent developments in video technology, in a few years, you
>might be able to make that movie yourself.

Hence the current drive by various Hollywood based industries for laws 
calling for *extremely* tight controls on things like CD & DVD burners.
 From what I understand, the Phantom Edit, and the Phantom Re-edit were not 
well received by the studio...

Hmmm....this is an interesting hobby for a crew during Jump, film making.
Shoot scenes against a blue screen, add the background in the editing process.
Re-edit to match the culture of the planet you're en-route to.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Vikings? There ain't no Vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was
burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway.
That's our story and we're sticking to it.
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 06:33:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Angus McDonald)
Date: Mon Aug 12 05:33:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
Message-ID: <OF6637FD53.2C67D73A-ONCA256C13.0023873E@dnsalias.com>

>>>
The standard GT:Far Trader rules are pretty explicit.  They don't.
Whether the GT:FT rules are a good model is not a question I'm
addressing.
<<<
I'm not familiar with the GT:FT rules, it sounds like we agree that more 
trade is desirable. In fact I'm pretty much going to focus on T20 for 
future roleplaying (although I'll be using old CT, MT and T4 material).

>>>
IMTU it's the low-tech or low-pop worlds that depend on trade the
most.  High-tech worlds can adapt to produce just about anything.
Low-tech worlds are much less flexible, and low-pop worlds rely on
trade for infrastructure development and maintenance.
<<<
If it mirrors 'modern' economics then hi-tech worlds will import stuff 
that can be produced more cheaply elsewhere, whilst lo-tech worlds will 
try to become the sweatshop of choice for hi-tech worlds in order to get 
enough credits to become hi-tech themselves. In terms of GWP, it might 
well be that imports/exports are a greater % for the lo-tech worlds 
(incidentally, Charles Handy a respected British business guru makes some 
interesting points about how GDP measures spending and thus indicates a 
society is richer if they spend more - even if they are in fact giving up 
quality of life for those goods ... e.g. GDP goes up every time a parent 
returns to the workforce, while they put their kids into daycare, but 
society is not necessarily better off - it all depends upon what you want 
to measure with GWP).

One of the hardest things to find in the universe is a world that easily 
supports life without technological intervention. If a hi-tech society 
finds such a world that has lo-tech, hi-pop, then you would almost 
certainly want to help them improve their TL so that they become a better 
market for your own exports (which are helping to pay for all those 
vacc-suit decals [t-shirts] you're importing, not to mention that really 
hi-tech stuff that you want to have [TL 15-16]). It's a bit like the 
current situation with China - a massive population waiting to consume all 
those nice 'necessary' western goods.

Must run,
---  from  ---
Angus McDonald
www.falkayn.com




Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
Sent by: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
12/08/2002 03:44 PM
Please respond to tml

 
        To:     tml@travellercentral.com
        cc:     (bcc: Angus McDonald/Dancrai)
        Subject:        Re: [TML] Rockballs and Economy


Angus McDonald wrote:
>  It would still be better to look at somewhere that is more vital to
> the world economy, a source of high technology, perhaps Japan?

For a high-trade Imperium or a low-tech/low-pop world, that would be a
better comparison.  Not for high-pop worlds in the GT Imperium,
though.


> A lot of this depends upon the Traveller trade rules, and whether
> your hi-pop world relies on imported Imperium high tech devices
> much.

The standard GT:Far Trader rules are pretty explicit.  They don't.
Whether the GT:FT rules are a good model is not a question I'm
addressing.


> I think IMTU interstellar trade will be more important for most
> hi-pop, hi-tech worlds and very unimportant for hi-pop, lo-tech
> worlds (especially if they have hi-agri). Lo-pop worlds will vary
> wildly.

IMTU it's the low-tech or low-pop worlds that depend on trade the
most.  High-tech worlds can adapt to produce just about anything.
Low-tech worlds are much less flexible, and low-pop worlds rely on
trade for infrastructure development and maintenance.


- Tim
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml





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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 06:35:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sebastian Rogers)
Date: Mon Aug 12 05:35:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Efate
Message-ID: <26B39E1664DDD311A1010008C7DB51FDEA9CE3@TIKITNT4>

Hello There
 
Just working on Efate from the point of view of a Striker campaign, and also
the jump off point for the next Traveller Adventure, and wondered how the
land grab is going?
 
Basically I was hoping to use anything you'd done so far.
 
Cheers

Sebastian Rogers <-- "I've got the medicine you need, I've got the power,
I've got the speed", Ian Kilminster

Technically Architected

 


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 06:38:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 05:38:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Wanted: FF&S2 Ships
In-Reply-To: <1aacc61a9e40.1a9e401aacc6@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020812083136.0197b1e8@192.168.0.1>

At 03:03 PM 8/12/2002 +0300, john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:
>~also posted to JTAS~
>I'm starting up a variant TNE campaign (set in the Solomani Rim,
>featuring conflicts between the Terran Republic and the Dingir League)
>using T4 rules, and I'm looking for a few ships of 5000 dtons or
>smaller.  I have already designed a number of ships for this campaign,
>but I'd appreciate a few ships designed by someone else.


Try the Gearhead webring

http://www.ringsurf.com/netring?ring=travgearhead;action=home


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 07:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug 12 06:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Great book
Message-ID: <200208121345.MPR01625@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>That's impressive, but I was thinking about bigger things 
>when I heard "missile".  Smaller objects resist acceleration 
>better (square-cube law again).

I think it has more to do with the duration of the impulse as 
well.  An artillery shell only has to put up with the 
100,000g shock for a split second.

An Orion ship spends much more time coasting between shots 
than it does handling the blast.  This is evidently how it 
handles the nuclear explosions temperatures as well.

According to the design, a disk of propellant is also 
suspended between the bomb and the pusher plate.  When the 
bomb goes off, according to the book no one will see a 
detonation until the x-rays reach the propellant - and even 
then, there isn't a flash until the ionized propellant 
strikes the pusher plate, where there would be a brilliant 
flash at approximately 120,000 degrees.  But the duration is 
so short, there isn't time to effectively heat the pusher 
plate.  They estimated that over the duration of a trip from 
ground launch (where the bombs would be around 1 kiloton), to 
orbit (where the bombs would be around 5 kiloton), and cruise 
to Saturn and back to low earth orbit, the total duration of 
high temperature against the pusher plate would be around one 
second.

Some of the brightest minds in physics were assembled for 
this project, and the only technological hurdle given for 
stopping the project was concern for fallout in Earth's 
atmosphere.  They were convinced that all other technological 
objections (shock, G-loads, vaporization of the pusher plate) 
were solved.  It has been proposed that a device that could 
initiate a thermonuclear explosion without a fission trigger 
would eliminate the last hurdle.  Still, such a machine would 
have to take off from a fairly unpopulated area, such as a 
remote island, and there might be EMP effects along the 
initial flight path - but these are 1 kiloton yield, and not 
bombs the size of strategic thermonuclear warheads.

The version that would carry people would accelerate at an 
average of 2 to 4 G.

The physicists did some calculations that indicate that any 
engine that operated at the same thrust and isp (in essence, 
at the same temperature, mass flow, and exhaust velocity) 
could never under any circumstances operate as a rocket with 
an internal combustion chamber - Orion is an external 
combustion chamber.  Fusion engines, if they are to achieve 
their optimum specs, will also operate as external 
combustion, in order to prevent the volatilization of the 
engine itself.  That last part is a matter of simple physics 
and heat transfer.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 07:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug 12 06:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
Message-ID: <200208121350.MPR02053@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Daniel Tackett asks
>Very interesting. Is there a link to a site that
>involves Phoenix Command Combat?

The game itself is out of print, but the books can be had.
The site is www.phoenixcommand.com.

Interestingly, Phoenix Command is only a combat system.  
Although roleplaying books were written for the system, they 
are not very interesting, other than to come up with 
scenarios where combat will take place.

And now I will cue Doug to shamelessly promote his work, 
because if you want a little more accuracy in combat, but you 
and your players aren't completely nuts and bolts about the 
details of combat, you should use Doug's book, which is 
available from BITS.  I like it much better than the CT, MT, 
or GURPS systems, but it doesn't take an hour to resolve 10 
seconds of combat actions.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 08:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 07:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #915 - 25 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20020812074802.18165.19115.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020812074802.18165.19115.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <fpfflu4v6q4smc523ttlhcop67sjcme1en@4ax.com>

On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 00:48:02 -0700, John Hamill <jwdh71@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Message: 19
>Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 22:30:10 -0700 (PDT)
>From: John Hamill <jwdh71@yahoo.com>
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>Subject: [TML] Adventure: Frontier Rescue
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
> 
> 
>

...and that was it.  John, care to try again?  And maybe try copying
submissions@freelancetraveller.com in the process?
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 09:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Mon Aug 12 08:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] ArchiveX/all good things...
Message-ID: <3D57D18F.708EC97E@mail.cswnet.com>

I see the archive is down again.

Im trying to find all of the "All good things..." posts from last month.

Did anybody save those?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 09:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Mon Aug 12 08:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Fwd: Penguin Airlines??
Message-ID: <20020812152722.57956.qmail@web11004.mail.yahoo.com>

  >>
  .....*Ahem*.....Forwarded from a friend from another
list without comment......

     MACessna
  >>
--- Michael Cessna wrote:
> Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 08:22:34 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Michael Cessna 
> Subject: Fwd: Penguin Airlines??
> To: Michael Cessna <graymask1120@yahoo.com>
> 
> 
> Note: forwarded message attached.
> 
> 
> =====
> Michael A. Cessna
> 
>
************************************************************
> "There is no such thing as low intensity violence."
> A. M. Gray, Commandant, USMC (ret)
>
************************************************************
>
> Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 19:43:00 -0700
> From: J. G.
> Subject: Penguin Airlines??
> To: 
> 
> Ok, so they use Linux.  Great.
> 
> I still don't think an airline naming themselves
> after a flightless bird 
> is a Good Idea.
> 
>
<http://www.desktoplinux.com/articles/AT3386270774.html>
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 10:53:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Aug 12 09:53:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Wanted: FF&S2 Ships
In-Reply-To: <1aacc61a9e40.1a9e401aacc6@us.army.mil>
References: <1aacc61a9e40.1a9e401aacc6@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <20020812175552.5470ae9b.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 15:03:10 +0300
john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:

> I'm starting up a variant TNE campaign (set in the Solomani Rim, 
> featuring conflicts between the Terran Republic and the Dingir League) 
> using T4 rules, and I'm looking for a few ships of 5000 dtons or 
> smaller.  I have already designed a number of ships for this campaign, 
> but I'd appreciate a few ships designed by someone else.

I have this 1000 ton TL-9 freighter, maybe that will help? Apologies for the lack of floorplans and the crappy layout of the text. My files are in disorder right now. There never were any deckplans anyway, but the rest of the problems would be fixed.

The ship has two maneuver engines, one antigravity drive used to float between ground and orbit, and one fusion rocket used for interplanetary travel (not to be used anywhere near settlements). It has a jump drive and fuel enough for two jumps, making it capable of going where other low-tech ships cannot.

I designed the ship to use in my (still after almost two years of preparations) upcoming First Contact campaign, therefore the low tech-level.

-----------------
Judith class freighter
Cost: MCr 477.374

Crew: 9
Captain, Pilot, Navigator/Co-pilot, Electronics operator, Chief engineer, Power plant engineer, Maneuver drive engineer, Jump drive engineer, Space hand/Steward

Armor: 0        (T4 value)
Structure: 12   (T4 value)
-----------------
Hull: 1000 ton streamlined long box
 Dimensions: 48.1 x 24.2 x 12 meters
 Hull material: Light ceramic composite
 Maximum safe acceleration: 1.8 G 

Standard antigravity drive
 Maximum gravity countered: 1.11 G (loaded), 2.64 G (fuel only), 3.09 G (empty)
 Thrust factor: 0.08

Fusion rocket drive
 Maximum acceleration: 0.56 G (loaded), 1.32 G (fuel only), 1.54 G (empty)
 Fuel consumption: 245 m^3 LHyd per hour at full thrust 

Jump drive
 Fuel consumption: 1400 m^3 LHyd per jump 

Fission plant (TL8)
 Fuel consumption: 25.9 m^3 radioactives per year
 Power output: 259.26 MW 

Electronics
 Two standard and one fiberoptic computer (TL9), Computer Power 2.0
 High automation, computer linked controls
 Navigation aids and fligth avionics (TL8)
 Radio communicator (TL8), 1000AU range, 200 m^2 antenna
 Passive scanner (TL9), sensivity 13.5, 20 m^2 antenna, resolution at 50000 km is 13 meters

Fuel tanks
 All fuel tanks are included in the life support volume
 LHyd internal tank: 4000 m^3
 Radioactives internal tank: 26 m^3 

Living quarters and crew areas
 5 small staterooms (2 beds each)
 2 sanitary facilities
 Crew lounge: 56 m^3
 Ordinary galley: 4 m^3
 Food storage: 0.5 m^3
 Sickbay: 112 m^3
 Ship's locker: 4.5 m^3
 8 computer linked workstations
 9 crew G-tanks (including crewstations) 

Life support
 Type III (standard) life support with a duration of 4 weeks
 Food for 9 persons, 4 weeks of normal meals, two weeks of emergency meals
 Main airlock: 4-person airlock with decontamination facilities
 Secondary airlock: 2-person airlock
 Maintenance airlocks: Four 1-person airlocks 

Cargo holds
 Cargo hold volume: 7283 m^3 (520.3 Td)
 Cargo hatches: 21 normal-sized (20 m^2) hatches
 Handling equipment: 21 cranes with a capacity of 36 tons per hour each.
 Loading/unloading time: 9h 40m 
---------------

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 11:00:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug 12 10:00:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEAIEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029171559.113.ajackson@ping>

Terry Carlino writes:
> So perhaps the problem is that the GT trade rules, in particular, work
> better for places like the Spinward Marches when you're talking about trade
> done by Free Traders, than they do for High Pop worlds in the interior
> joined together by megamerchants.
> 
> So what's the cutoff here? How much trade is necessary to make the back
> story of collapsing economies, riots and loss of tech level when trade is
> interrupted plausible?

Enough trade that there wouldn't be any worlds in the main parts of the
Imperium with a pop below 8 or a TL below C.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 11:07:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 10:07:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Broken Links: Anyone know where they really are now?
In-Reply-To: <20020812165303.25790.64770.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020812165303.25790.64770.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <laqflusa9f50m7ak1emuov58g9mc3o5r6c@4ax.com>

On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 09:53:03 -0700, mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan
Robertson) wrote:

>In-Reply-To: <pp6eluc7hj57m61c5ff320m97pc6ntf431@4ax.com>
>Greetings dear hearts.

>Not always a fail-safe, but when a site has disappeared it has often been 
>archived on the Wayback Machine.

>Go to http://www.archive.org/ and type the URL of the 'lost' site into the 
>search box.

Oh, I know about the Wayback Machine; I use it myself sometimes.  But this
is more an issue of keeping links in Freelance Traveller up-to-date; sites
that are 'irrevocably' lost, but available in the Wayback Machine, will
eventually be snarfed, and at first inserted /en toto/ into Freelance
Traveller, and then the individual articles assimilated over time - simply
to preserve good material.  However, I want to try to keep links updated in
preference to cyberarchaeology/cybercryptrobbing.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 11:12:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 10:12:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #916 - 22 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20020812165303.25790.64770.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020812165303.25790.64770.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <4jqflug1l5ggt3pjmujq78tf7djodkqeik@4ax.com>

On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 09:53:03 -0700, John Hamill <jwdh71@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Prologue
>20 June, 2346 A.D. 1325 GMT
>Leiber IV system
>New Wyoming 

>Thank you to those of you who helped me find GURPS
>Modular Vehicles, and GURPS Character Builder. The
>above was the prologue to the adventure that I ran for
>some new Traveller players this weekend. I will post
>the rest of the adventure as short fiction, if anyone
>is interested. It went well, and several players
>wanted to know if it could continue as a campaign.
>Success!
>Once again thank you to all the listers who helped me,
>and to all those others who by their comments and
>ideas on this list helped me start running Traveller
>after a long time.

You could have saved four words by putting a period after 'short fiction'
instead of a comma, and dropping the four words immediately following.

Please be sure to copy submissions@freelancetraveller.com separately when
you post further installments.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 11:15:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug 12 10:15:16 2002
Subject: Armor Schemes (was: Re: [TML] mines)
In-Reply-To: <20020810180812.B6285@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029171921.7515.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:

> Of course, neither is going to do much against a standard missile
> doing 6d x 4000 (5).  Half a million points of armour is really just
> getting silly (and infeasible).  :/

Well, spaced armor should actually be effective against missiles; basically, as
long as the mass density of the outer layer is moderately close to the mass
density of the missile (about 300 lb/sf, or a DR of 7,500 with GTL 12 armor),
the outer layer will disintegrate the missile, vastly reducing penetration
against the inner layers.  The problem with spaced armor is that realistically
it's _less_ effective than normal armor against lasers, or against any sort of
projectile that doesn't disintegrate on impact.

OTOH, there's no real reason to have empty spaces in the armor; just about any
non-critical components can plausibly be put between the hull layers.
> 
> 
> - Tim
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 
> 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 11:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Aug 12 10:26:02 2002
Subject: Armor Schemes (was: Re: [TML] mines)
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1029171921.7515.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B97D3D81.695C6%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/12/02 10:05 AM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@iii.com wrote:

>=20
> OTOH, there's no real reason to have empty spaces in the armor; just abou=
t any
> non-critical components can plausibly be put between the hull layers.

Not to mention low mass armor materials, like foam or aerogel.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 11:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 12 10:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Wanted: FF&S2 Ships
Message-ID: <2fc2c72f988d.2f988d2fc2c7@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Date: Monday, August 12, 2002 6:55 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Wanted: FF&S2 Ships

> On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 15:03:10 +0300
> john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:
> 
> > I'm starting up a variant TNE campaign (set in the Solomani Rim, 
> > featuring conflicts between the Terran Republic and the Dingir 
> League) 
> > using T4 rules, and I'm looking for a few ships of 5000 dtons or 
> > smaller.  I have already designed a number of ships for this 
> campaign, 
> > but I'd appreciate a few ships designed by someone else.
> 
> I have this 1000 ton TL-9 freighter, maybe that will help? 
> Apologies for the lack of floorplans and the crappy layout of the 
> text. My files are in disorder right now. There never were any 
> deckplans anyway, but the rest of the problems would be fixed.

Yes, this will serve quite nicely, since at least one of the worlds in 
my campaign has a Class A starport and a TL of around 9.

Much obliged! 

<<snip>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 11:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Mon Aug 12 10:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Broken Links: Anyone know where they really are now?
Message-ID: <memo.804609@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <laqflusa9f50m7ak1emuov58g9mc3o5r6c@4ax.com>
> Oh, I know about the Wayback Machine; I use it myself sometimes.  But 
> this
> is more an issue of keeping links in Freelance Traveller up-to-date; 
> sites
> that are 'irrevocably' lost, but available in the Wayback Machine, will
> eventually be snarfed, and at first inserted /en toto/ into Freelance
> Traveller, and then the individual articles assimilated over time - 
> simply
> to preserve good material.  However, I want to try to keep links 
> updated in
> preference to cyberarchaeology/cybercryptrobbing.

Very wise, I use it for the same purposes myself.

But it's a useful resource and whereas we aging webheads might know about 
it, I'm sure it's a new one to some listmembers :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 12:22:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (john fox)
Date: Mon Aug 12 11:22:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveler Minatures
Message-ID: <DAV508BiC6HbSzxdWGH000331fe@hotmail.com>

Hello Everyone:
  AT one time RAFM manufactured a bunch of Traveler mins.
Do they still make them?
I looked at their web site and could not find them.
If not, where do I look to find some?

John W. Fox

--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/html
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 12:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Mon Aug 12 11:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <B97C1824.694A5%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020812184500.25846.qmail@web11807.mail.yahoo.com>

> DMs for folding stocks are given in Book 1 of CT.
 
My apologies, the modifiers for stocks ARE in the CT
rules. I  wasn't looking hard enough. 
Thanks.

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 12:10:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 1 May 101 14:38:57 US/Central
Subject: [TML] The Best of the TML
Message-ID: <200105012050.f41KoX802336@premier1.premier.net>

> Now that the TML has a website (http://tml.travellercentral.com), I suggest
> we pull out the best postings on the list for a 'best of the TML' section of
> the website.  We need to create some mechanism for selecting "best ofs".
> Any suggestions?
> 
> The recent article on "Smart Fabrics" strikes me as a good candidate for the
> "Best Ofs".
> 
> What is the list members' opinion.

I suggest that there should be several categories of "Best of the TML" posts.  
Categories might include Toys (gearhead designs/ideas), Societies, 
Worldbuilding, Links, and Chrome (miscellaneous nifty stuff, such as Smart 
Fabrics).

Unfortunately, I have no idea how to implement an equitable system for 
_choosing_ "BotT"
posts.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 13:15:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Mon Aug 12 12:15:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <200208121350.MPR02053@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020812185753.1613.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>

THanks for the links. Phoenix command is just free
online rules now? BITs is only 8 bucks so why not?
Thanks.

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 13:20:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon Aug 12 12:20:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure: Frontier Rescue
In-Reply-To: <memo.794790@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020812191909.C82F92793F@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/12/02 at 12:43 PM,  mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan
Robertson) said:

>In-Reply-To: <20020812111141.33337.qmail@web21505.mail.yahoo.com>
>Greetings dear hearts.

>I for one would be fascinated to hear the rest of the adventure...

>(Preferably in scenario form but no matter.)

That would be my preferance too. I have a bunch of my players on the
TML, but with a bit of "modifying"...<g>...dropping them among the
"duffs" might be an interesting scenerio.

Eris 
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 13:27:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug 12 12:27:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
Message-ID: <200208121926.MQC00016@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Daniel Tackett asks
>THanks for the links. Phoenix command is just free
>online rules now? BITs is only 8 bucks so why not?

At Close Quarters is an add-on for Traveller - it's combat 
rules.

Phoenix Command is not free - you would need the books (4th 
Edition basic rules, plus extensions).  The web site you're 
looking at is put up by gearheads who love it.

Most people would probably prefer ACQ - unless you're an 
ultra gearhead.  Do you and your friends constantly discuss 
the minutiae of combat and weapons?  If not, then you'll be 
happier with ACQ.  If you do discuss minutiae like this, to 
the exclusion of roleplaying (i.e., you like doing this sort 
of thing with miniatures), then Phoenix Command will make you 
happy.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 13:32:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Mon Aug 12 12:32:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Lanth subsector navies IMTU
Message-ID: <3D580C0E.7F070297@mail.cswnet.com>

Lanth subsector naval forces, done with budgets from Meduim Navies.
All is IMTU; YMMV.

Notes:
Imperial Navy ships mostly drawn from Supplement 9.
Imperial Scout Service ships drawn from Supplements 7 and 9, along
with HGS for the Type S Scout ships.
Colonial and Planetary ships exclusively using HGS.

I have about 10-12 pages of just usp&#8217;s for the ships listed below, so if
your interested in any particular one drop me a note and I&#8217;ll send it
out to you. I tried to use the Imperial Data Package model for the
colonial ships. This is apparent in the use of the F-5 I Tiger units.
The F-5, in each of its formats, is 15dt and carries a tripple missile
turret. The Type S scouts are done in the same fashion, with the TL11
Scout being the one most familiar 2g, j2, etc, the TL10 and 9 Scouts are
2g, j1. Alot of fighters are used simply because there cheap. The Lanth
subsector doesn't have a HI POP world, so cheap firepower is the order
of the day.

Imperial Navy, Lanth subsector forces:
6 Naval Bases
2 Gionetti Light Cruisers
6 Chrysanthemum Destroyers
12 Fleet Couriers
36 Type T15 Patrol Cruisers
1 Fer De Lance Destroyer
3 Gazelle Close Escorts
2 TL13 Gigs (stationed at the Lanth Naval Base)

Imperial Interstellar Scout Service:
5 Scout Bases
8 Xboat Tenders
180 Xboats
39 TL 11 Type S Scouts
10 Survey Scouts

Note: Imperial forces are usually supplemented with units drawn from
Rhylanor and Lunion subsectors.

Colonial and Planetary Navies:

Extolay Colonial Navy:
2 CG10 Gunned Cruisers, 1 FF10 DFC class Frigate, 
10 SDB10 Exactor System Defense Boats,
6 Type T10 Patrol Cruisers, 9 CV9 Very Light Fighter Carriers,
each with 30 TL9 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters (270 total).

Lanth COACC:
9 TL11 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters, 
2 TL10 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters

Ghandi Customs Unit:
1 PF-9 patrol fighter w/5 marines

Wypoc Colonial Navy:
1 TL11 Scout, 2 TL12 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters

Quopist Unified Colonial Navy:
5 TL10 Patrol Cruisers, 3 TL9 Scouts,
11 TL9 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters

Treece Grand Colonial Navy:
10 BB8 Gornshima Battleships, 10 BB8 CAM-118 Gunned Battleships,
10 Type T8 Patrol Cruisers,
4 CV8 Very Light Fighter Carriers each with
40 TL8 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters (160 total),
13 CV7 Very Light Fighter Carriers each with
40 TL7 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters (520 total),
12 Type T7 Patrol Cruisers

Ivendo Colonial Navy:
6 TL10 Scouts, 2 TL9 Scouts.

Tureded Colonial Navy:
3 TL9 Scouts, 3 TL8 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters

Equus Colonial Navy:
4 CG11 Gunned Cruisers, 1 CG10 Gunned Cruiser, 
6 Type T11 Patrol Cruisers,
8 TL11 Type S Scouts, 12 SDB11 Exactor System Defense Boats,
6 TL9 Launches, 8 TypeT10 Patrol Cruisers

Rhise Unified COACC:
1 TL10 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighter

Icetina COACC:
5 TL7 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters

Cogri Colonial Navy:
5 Type T9 Patrol Cruisers, 8 TL9 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters,
14 TL8 Old Solomani Patrol Ships [UN PKF Patrol Ship] 

Skull Grand Navy:
1 BB9 Battleship &#8220;The Dead Head&#8221;, 6 TL9 Scout Ships, 
1 Type T8 Patrol Ship,
4 TL8 Old Solomani Patrol Ships [UN PKF Patrol Ship],
1 CV8 Very Light Fighter Carrier with 
40 TL8 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters

Dinom Corporate Navy:
3 TL9 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters
Note: This is as of 001-1105. Disposition of the fighters after the 
revolution is not known. [Referees, consult JTAS Article on Dinom].

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 12:10:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Myers)
Date: Mon Aug 12 12:32:52 2002
Subject: [TML] sup.12 request [munchkin rant]
In-Reply-To: <MNEIJOCDFNHAIPMCMHEKEENICAAA.mickscan@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <200107020959.CAA09049@smtpout.mac.com>

I have the original, it's a corker. :-) The included scenario is a real 
example of how to deal with Big Secrets without upsetting the balance of 
power. It's the anti-SOTA (which I love as well, strangely).

- Rob.

On Sunday, July 1, 2001, at 11:07  am, Michael Scanlon wrote:

>
> I'm looking forward to the Alien Supplements to be out, which is looking
> like to be some time yet though. In particular I'm after the Darrian
> Supplement

--
JIEX - http://www.robmyers.org/jiex
Quarterly 2300AD Journal.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 12:10:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 101 17:28:59 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Filk of Veracruz
Message-ID: <200107262340.f6QNeYj00180@premier1.premier.net>

> What and whose melody is this song sung to?

The original song is Warren Zevon's "Vera Cruz," which can be found on the 
album "Excitable Boy."  It deals with the punitive expedition against Pancho 
Villa in (IIRC) 1916.

Tres cool stuff (both the original and Doug's filk).



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 13:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Aug 12 12:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Wanted: FF&S2 Ships
In-Reply-To: <2fc2c72f988d.2f988d2fc2c7@us.army.mil>
References: <2fc2c72f988d.2f988d2fc2c7@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <20020812214026.7446b051.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 20:26:32 +0300
john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:

> Yes, this will serve quite nicely, since at least one of the worlds in 
> my campaign has a Class A starport and a TL of around 9.
> 
> Much obliged! 

No problem. Glad that the ship might finally see some action...  *sigh*

Oh well, the upcoming year will contain a lot more RPGs than the latest five years, since I move back to my home town and main group... finally...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 13:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Aug 12 12:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D53003A.1070102@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020809190742.B3949@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D540E41.1040509@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020810113922.D5883@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3D58064C.4020008@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Timothy Little wrote:
> Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
>>The fact that they all share remarkable similarities in background
>>story is mere coincidence ;-)
> 
> 
> Sort of makes a shambles of the acronym "OTU" though :(

Nope, not at all, there's a CT OTU, a MT OTU, a GT OTU...

The problem is that you're trying to view several discrete objects as 
points along a continuum, when in fact they're not.

Note, between TNE, MT, and GT there are no less than three considerably 
different *qualitiative* timelines in the "OTU".

We spend vast amounts of time trying to reconcile different historical 
theories between versions of the game using *qualitative measures* ('Who 
was Arbatrella?') that end up widely divergent, its not at all 
unexpected that *quantitative* measures ('How much trade goes through 
this world?') will never be workable; there's just *way* too much data 
missing, and worse, the data is heavily skewed toward one particular 
aspect, the PC, and small tramp starship traffic, mainly in a single, 
backwater sector, riven by frequent wars.

Quantitatively measuring trade in the 'OTU' is like trying to determine 
predictive measures of trade balances and deficits between, say China 
and the United States, by looking at cross Indian Ocean dhow cargo 
traffic alone.

I'm sure you can come up with all sorts of pretty equations, charts and 
trend lines, but their relationship to reality will be due only to sheer 
coincidence. GIGO.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 13:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas R Glatz)
Date: Mon Aug 12 12:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Broken Links: Anyone know where they really are now?
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 12 Aug 2002 00:16:40 EDT."
 <pp6eluc7hj57m61c5ff320m97pc6ntf431@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020812194740.2ED362793F@mail.travellercentral.com>

> ><http://www.teleport.com/~douglas> - Douglas Glatz home page (also lin=
ks to pages below this location)


Teleport got bought out by Earthlink, and since I started my own hosting =
company anyway, I declined their services.  My home page is at http://dou=
glas.coonpanion.com, my traveller pages are now located at http://travell=
er.geekoids.com

douglas


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 12:10:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 101 18:35:33 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Traveller IRC
Message-ID: <200109120047.f8C0lPw19555@premier1.premier.net>

Yes mr. Zeitlin works in NCP as a system op.  He also lives outside the city 
the last time I heared.  Though I have not been on IRC in a bit.  For the rest 
of you he is the one who runs Free Traveller website.  

Tim Reynolds
aka Grayman


>

 From: "Swordy" <swordworlder@earthlink.net>
> 
>      "anxiously awaiting word from Jeff Zeitlin (of Freelance Traveller) who 
> works for the NYC police dept. :("
> 
> 
>      Has anyone gotten a PING from Mr. Zeitlin?  Mr. Ramen has checked in, 
> fortunately.  There are reports of "massive" casulties among NYPD and FDNY 
> personnel.
>      Doesn't he work in some sort of computer capacity and not a uniformed 
> one?
> 
> 
>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
> 
> 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 12:10:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 101 13:35:58 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Re: Donating Blood
Message-ID: <200109121947.f8CJlmw00196@premier1.premier.net>

Hi all

I got this from an archiveing professor just now.
Its a list of "surivors" of the attack.  I have looked at
it and it has a few problems.  
These are the result of it being open to the 
so there are joke entries here and there.
But if it helps someone get more information on their love ones
it works for me.

http://www.ny.com/wtclist.html

Tim Reynolds




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 12:10:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 101 16:42:56 US/Central
Subject: [TML] PCs in the Big Picture
Message-ID: <200109172254.f8HMspw20018@premier1.premier.net>

> Ladies and Gentlemen,
> 
>      The horrific events of last Tuesday produced an odd tangent in my 
> thinking, even odd for a Whipsnade.
>      Just how involved are the PCs in your campaigns involved in the "Big 
> Picture"?
>      Using 911 as an example, would your PCs be simple passengers on one of 
> the hijacked flights or a group tracking the hijackers prior to the act or a 
> group after Bin Laden (IF he's behind this) himself?

I do not know if I would use the terms high powered games or lower power games 
when talking about this subject, Maybe High Politics/Low Politics would be 
better.  To me high power games are those where the PCs own 1000 ton patrol 
cruiser and have enough Power Armor to equip a company of mercs.

In either case, I run a mix game trying to do the classic Onion peel thing.  
Players love to know that they saved the Universe even if no else will ever 
know.  I mean this is role playing not your adverage day at work where you have 
to argue that the reason you did not pay your ship(car) payment on time was 
that the ship(car) fuel cost to much.  

Tim Reynolds




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 12:10:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 101 16:35:59 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Re: Red Storm Rising
Message-ID: <200109172247.f8HMltw19476@premier1.premier.net>


> > 
> > Also, IIRC, the critical shortage of oil in the USSR required that the oil
> > fields be captured quickly and _intact_, and the extreme measure of 
attacking
> > NATO was seen as enabling that goal.
> 
> Well that's one of the things that seemed daft. Going to war on two different 
> fronts on only one's existing oil stocks has to be twise a silly as going to 
> war on only one. Besides I never could buy that so much of the Soviet 
> porduction could be destroyed in one hit that this sort of thing would 
> necessary.
> 
> 

Ask the Germans about starting a war with one front just to deal with the 
orginal war in the first place.  Or even the Japan in WWII.  Based on these and 
probably alot of other cases I do not know Red Storm Rising is possible when 
looking at the Political Military side of things and not just either one by its 
self.  


Tim Reynolds



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 12:10:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 101 09:39:46 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Democracy?  Or not?
Message-ID: <200109191551.f8JFpfw02966@premier1.premier.net>


To be honest I am not sure if I am insulted by this or not.  It&#8217;s bad when 
after the 2000 elections everyone here said, thank god it was Florida and not 
us.

Go LSU Tigers.

OT:
I mean every time I build a third world nation/world or think of dirty politics 
I model it off of Louisiana.  Our leaders personalities make for great NPC 
personalities that you just love to hate.  We have bigots, crooks, con men, and 
a police force that was so corrupt at one time that FBI had to take over 
running New Orleans. The patron system is also alive and kicking down here. On 
other hand we actually work and party hard so there is a lot of fun.

So does anyone else use really leaders to models NPC?  Also I think the most 
corrupted systems would also be the most exciting systems?

Tim

> > Sorry, I couldn't let that go.  Taiwan is no more a republic than, say, 
> Louisiana under Huey Long.  Unless your definition of a republic includes 
> vote-buying, legislation by brute force, mafia control of large parts of 
> the government and very low accountability to the people.  Those things are 
> natural, I think, but far from a necessary part of a republic, and 
> certainly not unavoidable in the amounts that they are present here.  I 
> also don't think Taiwan is doomed to this kind of existence forever, but 
> certainly for a while at least.  Democratic values take a long time to 
> foster and mature, and Taiwan has only been a democracy for about 15 
> years.  Confucianism will take quite a while to dismantle.
> 
> -- Rachel
> 
> 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 12:10:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 101 13:07:26 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Spinward Marches Statistics
Message-ID: <200110021919.f92JJUX21034@premier1.premier.net>

This is cool bit of data.  my next question is what system are they in and who 
wants to draw up the stratgic plans to take them ?

> Hello Folks,
>   After taking a hard look at how many planets in the Spinward Marches have
> the ability to build TL15 (GURPS TRAVELLER TL12) ships, I got to wondering
> about how the Imperium would build its fleets.  The following information
> was gleaned from a GURPS TRAVELLER database.  The translation between the
> GURPS rules and the CT rules is that TL 9 ships include Traveller TL's
> 9,10, and 11 ships.  TL 10 ships include Traveller TL's 12 and 13.  TL 11
> ships include Traveller TL 14, and TL 12 equals Traveller TL 15.  The only
> star ports I included in checking via the database, were Class V (or
> Traveller Class A starports).  Class IV or Traveller class B starports of
> course, can build Battle riders and fighters.
> 
> These are the statistics of the Spinward Marches:
> 
> Starports able to build Jump 1 & 2 ships:		17	
	531,046,053 dTons/year
> Starports able to build Jump 3 & 4 Ships:		11	
	115,450,926 dTons/year
> Starports able to build Jump 5 Ships:		 1		 52,000,000 
dTons/year
> Starports able to build Jump 6 Ships:		 5		676,520,000 
dTons/year
> 
> These values are approximations of the TCS tonnages.  I took the population
> values (without including the population modifier, as this is not in my
> database right now) and subtracted 3 from them, and raising that to the
> 10th power.  Example: a population 9 world would result in a starport that
> could build 10^(9-3) or 1,000,000 dTons.  This is based on the formula that
> read something to the effect of P x pop/1000.  Ignoring P, it works out to
> Pop/1000, or 10^(pop-3).
> 
>        Hal
> 
> 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 12:10:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 101 13:10:29 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Question/Face to go by
Message-ID: <200110021922.f92JMXX21250@premier1.premier.net>

> At 05:10 PM 10/01/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >David Hackworth's mailing list reprinted a piece from the Sunday Times
> >concerning conditions in Afganistan.
> >
> >Anyone want to see it?
> 
> OK, somebody hold me back.  Please.
> 
> David Hackworth used to be a soldier.  In fact, at one time, he was held
> the distinction of being the most-decorated soldier in the Army.  Then he
> lost his nerve.  He's spent the last thirty years knocking down the force
> he left behind, usually without any real information.

Just so I am picturing this guy right is he the older guy with the gray crew 
cute.  I think he was Col in the Army.  I just can not put a name with a face.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 12:10:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 101 14:20:28 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Enough!
Message-ID: <200110152032.f9FKWfg23633@premier1.premier.net>

Hey Doug not to question the masters or anything but......


> >What makes this the first psionic wave?  The Universe is know to 
> >work in some cylces so maybe this is the second or the one 
> >thousand wve to come from the center.  Could it be that the wave 
> >had something to do with Grandfather's abilities.  Does this mean 
> >that there could actually be more then one grandfather around.  
> >Going on this how many waves, travelling at light speed,  could 
> >there have been if the galaxy is something like 4 billion years old?
> 
> Perhaps it is a regular event, every 300,000 years or so.  This would time
> the last wave with the Ancient's Final War.


I do not have a timeline handy, but wasnt this war only 10,000 years ago?
Now if the war was 300,000 years ago, and the current wave occures simo with 
the destruction of the 3rd Imperium we have some cause and effects going on.
Some how this brings a Star Treck plot thing to mind : )  




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 12:10:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 101 13:55:32 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Re: Magnetic tank armor
Message-ID: <200110162007.f9GK7kg02225@premier1.premier.net>

A question was asked

> >   BTW, does anyone have any estimates on how long the USACE would
> need to upgrade facilities to execute sealifts of armor brigades
> to Afghanistan in the current unpleasantness? :>

I do not know the exact timeing but I do know it will be shorter then the Gulf 
War's rough 6 month execuation time.  This is the results of several 
congressional and executive studies of the whole process and the shock at the 
amount of time it took to carry out the G.W.'s sealift.  I think we need to 
keep one thing in mind Afganistan is landlocked and I do not see US tanks 
rolling through Pakastain to get there.  

So this brings into airlift operations and the deploying of the Kittyhawk as a 
floating airlift base.  When you talk about medium armor I think it should be 
designd for airlift not sealift operations.  Nothing like having 2-3 medium 
tanks dropping out the back of a C-5 on top of the enemies position supported 
by a swarm of gunships and strike aircraft.  

Hmm OT  

I dont have any Space lift operations are covered pretty good




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 12:10:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 101 15:21:48 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Enough!
Message-ID: <200110162134.f9GLY2g07994@premier1.premier.net>

> > On 10/15/01 at 01:51 PM,  Mole <mole@solsec.org> said:
> > 
> >> Ummm... I keep getting these posts dated from 1940
> > 
> >> I think someone needs to check their date and time settings?
> > 
> > I suspect Tim is using a Y2K non-compliant email client...or we just have a
> > real timemachine going on. <g>
> > 
> > Eris
> 
> 
> If there were a time machine I'm sure it would be in the hands of those best
> capable of using it...Citizen...Have you spoken with your local monitor
> lately?
> 
At this time it would not be prudent for me to confirm or deny my possession of 
a time machine.  

Tim





From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 12:10:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 101 16:08:12 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Re: Magnetic tank armor
Message-ID: <200110182220.f9IMKQg03666@premier1.premier.net>

Hi everyone

> ....
> >So this brings into airlift operations and the deploying of the Kittyhawk as 
a floating airlift base.  

Ok though you might be able to deploy C130s from the Kittyhawk(remember it deck 
is bigger then a WWII carrier)  I was not referring to fix wing aircraft but to 
helicopter airlift.  However, FYI the DOD has looked into semi fixed naval 
vessels about the size of 3 aircraft carriers, that could launch a C17, and 
have like a pre-positioned Marine force.  When you realize that the current 
Assistant Secretary of State is one of the people arguing for such an idea then 
you see why the Kittyhawk is being deployed this way.  


>When you talk about medium armor I think it should be 


As far as this goes I am talking about near the positions with armor cable of 
fighting in non WWIII conditions for limited operations.  Also I was picturing 
in the future.  I was pointing out that airlifts if you can get the right combo 
of factors working is better then sealift, because it is faster.

OT

Maybe we can have a design contest to see who can develop the best assault 
units. This would use LBB 4 and GURPS Ground Forces



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 12:10:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 101 14:38:22 US/Central
Subject: [TML] You know you're an old Traveller when...
Message-ID: <200111052150.fA5Long20375@premier1.premier.net>


> >It then gets worse when they ask "When was this adventure written?", you
> check and 
> >reply 1981 to which they both respond "I wasn't even born then!"
> 
> My new secondary partner wasn't born when Traveller came out!  (Secondary
> partner: polyamory term for some you have a relationship with other than
> your primary.  Read your Heinlein.)
>

How about when you have characters "older" then some of the players in your 
group.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 15:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 12 14:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Landgrab Pagaton submission
Message-ID: <ae.2b69ddaa.2a897cce@aol.com>

at http://members.aol.com/exog/myhomepage/pagaton.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 15:10:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ken Murphy)
Date: Mon Aug 12 14:10:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Disintegrators, Dragon style
Message-ID: <F21UrxkQTffgaTuOHti00008e66@hotmail.com>

Daniel comments: I have a few really old Dragons. I acquired them
>recently, and haven't really read them yet. You
>wouldn't have a clue as to which issue, or maybe the
>year of the issue?

   Nope, I'm sorry Dan. I'd originally gotten the info off an acquaintence's 
Dragon CD set :(
  -Ken-

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 00:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jul 31 23:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <a6.29f91dee.2a7a2a7a@aol.com>

 >> Fighter crews, sent out in the manner that the original post
 >> specified, will know otherwise--that there's little chance they as
 >> individuals will make any difference at all, and that they're almost
 >> certainly going to die uselessly.
 >
 >You keep saying that, but the original post did not.  It stated that
 >100 fighters for 1 capital ship may be worth it.  What it _didn't_
 >state was how large the attacking force of fighters is.  Sure, it
 >could be 100--but it could also be 1,000.

Always appreciate having my memory challenged.  The original post from packet 
#832 was as follows:

>For HG style fights, I added a "visual range" range band.  
>You have to spend at least one turn at short range before 
>closing to visual (essentially, you have to win initiative 
>twice).  At visual range, weapons automatically hit without a 
>roll.  Sand becomes a weapon similar to a plasma gun at 
>visual.  Note that if there are more fighters attacking than 
>there are defensive batteries at visual range, something is 
>going to get through.  So I added a single autocritical 
>regardless of armor or ship size for any nuclear weapons that 
>get through.  And to make that interesting, I set a limit as 
>to how many warheads a damper can try and stop - one per 
>factor.
>
>Suddenly, the small, cheap fighter with a nuclear missile and 
>a laser, being flown by a human with a mediocre computer 
>becomes a possibility in navies that are willing to put up 
>with the losses - a few hundred fighter pilots in trade for a 
>major capital ship.

This tactic is presented not as a desperation move, but an ordinary one to be 
implemented if said navy can put up with it.  To which I responded that no 
fighter pilot community would tolerate it.  Even if the attacking squadron is 
originally 1000, after two capital ships they'll be combat ineffective using 
this tactic, and there will be NO volunteers to replace them until the tactic 
is discarded.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 00:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jul 31 23:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <e6.2be0ca41.2a7a3051@aol.com>

 >When I was stationed at Ft. Campbell, we had numerous 
 >nighttime helicopter accidents, usually involving more than 
 >one helicopter at once, and usually killing the passengers 
 >(we infantrymen) in decidedly horrific fashion.  I remember 
 >taking someone's entrails out of a tree.  But we didn't stop 
 >riding in helicopters, nor did we have mutinous discussions 
 >about how we would stop riding until they stopped flying 
 >between the trees at night.

You would have if 90 out of 100 crashed between breakfast and lunch.

Look, I appreciate what you're saying, and I understand the drive to climb 
that ladder, and I understand service to country.  But there is a big 
difference between what you are saying and what was implied in the original 
post.  People take up being paratroops or rangers even though they know the 
job is potentially hazardous because they know it is not always and forever 
hazardous.  These same people would NOT take up such a job if they were told, 
"Each and every time we send you out the vast majority of you are not coming 
back."  Who would lead such people?  Who would train them?  There would be no 
survivors left to do so.  I'll say again regarding the original post:  any 
pack of pilots that would volunteer to die by the hundreds to kill one 
capital ship as a regular ordinary tactic will all be at level 0.  There will 
be no experienced person to train or lead them.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 00:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jul 31 23:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <19e.638001c.2a7a328e@aol.com>

 >Just turning to the first page of world listings in GT:Rim of Fire, I
 >see that Darrukesh has 8.2 billion sophonts.  Note that a capital ship
 >can in theory do quite a handy job on a planet's surface, if desired.
 >Now, as Grand Admiral of the Darrukesh fleet, would you expend
 >1.22e-6% of your world's population to prevent that from occuring?

You are discussing survival situations.  The original post concerned an 
ordinary standard tactic to be employed every time "if the navy can tolerate 
the losses".
They won't.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 00:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jul 31 23:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <ac.2b2232c0.2a7a3323@aol.com>

 >>tcs neglects the most important fleet construction factor of all.
 >>go back to tcs and re-read the rules.
 >
 >Tell you what - you go _play_ some hg/tcs, then come back and
 >talk about people reading tcs.

Sure.  I'll play you -- if you can handle it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 00:48:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jul 31 23:48:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <27.2b4e7fcb.2a7a338a@aol.com>

 >Rock, Paper, Scissors.  Your calculations don't go far enough.

Could be.  Let's find out.  Show me.  Can you handle it?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 00:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jul 31 23:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <12e.1530f6bf.2a7a34a4@aol.com>

 >>by the way, just what is orbital bombardment and why does
 >>it require some special ship?
 >
 >It may require less (or different) capability than that
 >required to stand against a major capital ship.  If I can
 >make two or three ships minimally suited to orbital
 >fire-support missions for every one of your jack-of-all
 >trades dreadnaughts, then I can run two or three times as
 >many ground assault operations at the same time as you can.

Tonnages!  I want tonnages!  And I want to know every reason why you put in 
what you did and left out what you did.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 00:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jul 31 23:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <196.abe40d6.2a7a3514@aol.com>

 >>  between nukes and meson guns, what else could anyone want?
 >
 >They might want more choices besides Dreadnaughts.

Show me your choices.  I'd love to see 'em.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 01:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 00:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <12d.1506ac4f.2a7a379b@aol.com>

 >>there is one other defense you're forgetting. (against meson guns)
 >
 >Agility?  It reduces hits, doesn't block damage from them.
 >Or are you talking about something from the "house
 >rules" you've been talking from all along, instead of
 >the rules everyone else has been using?

Neither, actually.  Oh, and I would really like to hear your specific 
objections to each specific house rule.  I really do want to hear from your 
superior wisdom.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 01:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 00:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <f3.1ed9f0cb.2a7a396a@aol.com>

 >> >Your super-dreadnaught is one "Fuel Tanks Shattered"
 >> >hit away from being dead in space, no matter how buff
 >> >you make it - and there are Cruisers (or packs
 >> >of them) that can deal such damage to it.
 >>
 >>wow.
 >
 >Yes, wow.  High-tech societies should be very, very careful
 >about their reasons for getting mad enough to smack major
 >fleet elements into each other.  Even the winner is probably
 >going to bleed white.

Unreserved agreement here.  Oh wise teacher, I seek experience, unworthy as I 
am.  My poor virgin Spinward Marches Colonial Fleet awaits.  Battle me!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 01:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 00:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <9a.295bcf54.2a7a3abb@aol.com>

 >the best, and I mean the best, adventures are those that 
 >are "two party" adventures - one party of players against 
 >another.  The referee can never buy or write a one-party 
 >adventure that is as tense, hilarious, or as emotional as 
 >a "two party".
 >
 >Especially if the people in both parties know each other as 
 >gamers.  The referee doesn't have to do all of the thinking 
 >for one side anymore.

(mental eyes opening wide as possibilities come into view)  Now that _is_ a 
good idea.  Has this been around for a while and I've missed it, or is it 
something your group came up with?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 01:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 00:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Acceptable losses
Message-ID: <10d.15a5705f.2a7a3b9c@aol.com>

 >Some people I know do *not* believe the casualty figures from 
 >WW I.  They insist that it's simply not possible.

England had the custom of entire villages and towns volunteering to form one 
entire unit, which would fight together.  Frequently they were all gunned 
down together, and an entire village or town would lose most of its young men 
all at once.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 01:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 00:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <8d.1bfa1383.2a7a4253@aol.com>

 >The point of my video game comment was to illustrate that it's not
 >unrealistic that fighter pilot skills might conceivably be learned from
 >games.  I still believe that to be the case; you've certainly not
 >demonstrated otherwise.

I can't.  You lack the experience I might appeal to to do so.  For that 
matter, so do I -- I'm not a pilot.  But I've seen what works and what 
doesn't in a military.  But you haven't even seen that.

Try contacting a real fighter pilot sometime.  Ask him if fighter pilot 
skills might be learned from sophisitcated games.  Ask your local recruiter 
-- maybe he has a pilot come in once in a while to help him recruit.  Or 
heck, you could even call a nearby AFB or naval base, contact the liaison, 
and ask to speak to a pilot for ten minutes or so.  But it would be better if 
you can look him in the eye as he talks to you.

 >> He will shuck and jive, pretend equipment failures, or run.  He most
 >> certainly won't volunteer for that sort of duty again.
 >
 >That's a pretty low opinion of a fellow officer

A fellow officer, he says!  They wouldn't be officers, they'd be cannon 
fodder.  And they'd know it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 01:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith Mormon minion of Arioch)
Date: Thu Aug  1 00:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <f3.1ed9f0cb.2a7a396a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000501c2392c$7b7b0800$6f7ba8c0@kenneith93j41k>

That is the whole argument of detant, that the cost would be too high if
both sides went to war.
ken

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comics
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you
http://www.geocities.com/J_Elric_Smith/Index.html
----- Original Message -----
From: <Flykiller@aol.com>
> Unreserved agreement here.  Oh wise teacher, I seek experience, unworthy
as I
> am.  My poor virgin Spinward Marches Colonial Fleet awaits.  Battle me!
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 01:56:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 00:56:27 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <bf.241eecb7.2a7a4368@aol.com>

 >>asking hundreds of them at a time to give up their lives all 
 >>at once, just to make a tactic work, in one segment of a 
 >>single battle, is not an insignificant outlay for THEM.  
 >>(push button) "go do this, guys."  (lights 
 >>flash) "ok."  it doesn't work that way.
 > 
 >See the battle of Midway.  The low level torpedo attack 
 >planes that sacrificed themselves to Japanese anti-aircraft 
 >fire so that the dive bombers would have a chance.

Yes, with a huge Japanese fleet threatening their homeland and only them 
standing between the yellow peril and their families.  It was not, however, a 
standard tactic, employed "because they'll tolerate it".

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 02:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 01:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <43.f41b3de.2a7a45aa@aol.com>

 >HMS Glow-worm ramming the Admiral Hipper comes to mind. The destroyer's 
 >mass
 >was literally the only thing that might hurt the cruiser, and if she wasn't
 >hurt then the convoy would be massacred. Her skipper knew his ship would
 >sink; he knew many (but probably not all) of his crew would die. But the
 >decision was made in the face of the enemy, for a clear goal - to save
 >hundreds of helpless merchant seamen. Would the crew have accepted an
 >Admiralty policy of "we're not giving you torpedoes. You're to close and
 >ram, then sink"? In desperate times, some people actually would. But, say,
 >in 1934? Nope.

Thanks.  I was beginning to think I was the only one here who thought this 
way.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 02:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Aug  1 01:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Ring
References: <20020801000225.15828.154.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D48ED45.AD92306F@earthlink.net>

Glenn M. Goffin reminded us:
> 
> From: "Mosaic Tapestry" <n2sami@attbi.com>
> To: "Traveller Mailing List" <tml@travellercentral.com>
> Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 23:10:18 -0700
> Organization: often equals Disorgainization
> Subject: [TML] Traveller Ring
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> This is the semi-occasional irregular announcement of the existence
> of
> the Traveller Ring. Available at:
> 
> http://www.ringsurf.com/netring?ring=traveller;action=info


Yessss, we wantss our preciousss! Must have preciousss!

Oh.

Sorry, wrong ring.

David S.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 02:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 01:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] [OT] comic book universe battles
Message-ID: <129.1523d6e2.2a7a48bb@aol.com>

 >> Actually, when I watched the movie last year in one of my film classes
 >> ("Film Genres 160: Science-Fiction Cinema"), I realized that it can be 
read
 >> as an argument _against_ the politics of Heinlein's books. Since the book
 >> seems to say, in effect, "A military dictatorship isn't necessarily that
 >> bad!",
 >
 >It seems to say that to some people. The rest of us sit there wondering
 >if they read the same book we did.

I read the book and saw the movie, and I didn't hear anything for or against 
the portrayed government type in either one.  They just portrayed it, and 
left it at that.  I think that evaluations of what the book and movie were 
trying to say are simply reflections of the viewers' own judgements, like an 
inkblot test.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 02:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 01:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
Message-ID: <cf.1abcc5f7.2a7a49d6@aol.com>

 >In Washington, D.C., the homicide department is in complete 
 >shambles.  I sometimes wonder if the powers that be intend 
 >for it to be so.  Cases are lost, forgotten, misplaced...

The department reflects the community that it polices.

You are aware of what Cincinatti is going through now?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 02:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 01:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Acceptable losses
Message-ID: <d5.1b14d150.2a7a5048@aol.com>

 >Great reply. But I think you ignored one area.

Only one?  I did better than I thought!

>While a lot of credit is given to soldiers fighting for some greater, nobler
>idea, studies have repeatedly pointed to the formation of small, tightly
>knit groups as the key to successful armies.  Men rarely risk death and
>dismemberment for higher ideals.

Yeah, I keep hearing this.  I believe it, but I can't see it.  I'm one of 
those who looks to the noble idea.  I know the other tribal/herd thing is out 
there, and I know what it is and how it works, but it's a complete blank spot 
to me personally.

>Many scholars have pointed to the effectiveness of veteran troops over green
>one by observing that these small unit bonds are much stronger between men
>who have shared the rigors of war, and it is that which makes them more
>effective and willing to go the 'extra mile'

I read somewhere that during the War Between the States the Northern armies 
would place new recruits in entirely new brigades, which made them unreliable 
at first, while the Southern armies would install their new recruits in 
established armies, which steadied their new recruits greatly.

Thanks.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 03:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Thu Aug  1 02:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] John Strain where have you gone?
In-Reply-To: <m3bs8ngokq.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPCELCELAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Hi John,

are you still here? The emails I sent to you regarding the graphics you want
to use have been bouncing. Something about invalid return address.

Could you try sending me another email

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 03:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 02:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Website Update
Message-ID: <b0.2a4c8aff.2a7a55c1@aol.com>

 Which works better for you?

personally I prefer having all the data next to the map, rather than having 
the map expand away from it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 03:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 02:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <158.11c679eb.2a7a5fd1@aol.com>

 >> too, in a capital ship only the bridge crew has any
 >> view of the slaughter taking place, and the captain 
 >>(assumedly an experienced and dedicated older 
 >> man) only has to control himself and them (they also
 >> being assumedly experienced and dedicated older 
 >> men).  
 >
 >Wrong, wrong, wrong.

echo.

>If half your friends get sucked
>out into space you know there screwed. Sure you might
>think only your section is being hit, but you are
>probably smarter than that.

well, usually by that time the ship is fried anyway.  mutiny all you want -- 
no-one will notice anymore.

>And whats with the all
>male bridge crew?

What's the matter?  You don't like guys?

>Today many western navies are
>getting more female sailors

Yeah, I've seen 'em.  True story:  two female reservists on the gallery deck, 
looking lost and bored and a little nervous.  One of 'em suddenly brightens, 
turns to the other and says, "Let's go to the ship's mall!"  The other lights 
up with happiness and they head for the ladder down to the store.  It was 
almost more than I could take.

>and Trav is supposed to
>be a non-sexist universe!

Traveller is fantasy.

>All he has to do is launch his missiles and run! He is
>only one ship of many. The odds are probably in favor
>of him surviving. It wasn't in the original post that
>casualties among the fighters has high.

Yes it was.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 03:57:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug  1 02:57:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <196.abe40d6.2a7a3514@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002601c23943$4e0f1ac0$6e09bd50@martinjd>

>  >They might want more choices besides Dreadnaughts.
>
> Show me your choices.  I'd love to see 'em.

Low-end ships so you can do all your jobs within your budget maybe? Patrol
ships and tankers and whatever you plan to escort the talkers with. The USN,
for example, has other ships than carriers or attack subs (whichever you
consider to be the capital ship). Most navies have some high-end combat
ships and low-end workhorses.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 04:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug  1 03:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <8d.1bfa1383.2a7a4253@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003b01c23943$a8f1b4c0$6e09bd50@martinjd>



> >The point of my video game comment was to illustrate that it's not
>  >unrealistic that fighter pilot skills might conceivably be learned from
>  >games.  I still believe that to be the case; you've certainly not
>  >demonstrated otherwise.
>
> I can't.  You lack the experience I might appeal to to do so.  For that
> matter, so do I -- I'm not a pilot.  But I've seen what works and what
> doesn't in a military.  But you haven't even seen that.

I play Tekken against my training partner quite a lot. But you know? We get
out fighting skills from hitting one another for real. Pushing buttons just
doesn't give the feedback. Or the blood and snot.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 04:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 03:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] juries
Message-ID: <108.15a4adbc.2a7a6208@aol.com>

 >I've got to say that I have very little confidence in the present U.S. legal
 >system. I don't mean in a political way. I just don't think that an
 >adversarial system is all that good for determining guilt.

It's about as good as you'll get.

>Amateur juries
>seem to me to be ill equipped to handle many kinds of cases.

True.  And irrelevant to why they exist.  Juries aren't meant to be 
professional, quite the opposite.  Juries are meant to be a last and final 
check and balance against governmental power over individual citizens.  The 
government can't put anyone in jail unless they can get a bunch of amateur 
citizens to agree.  It's preferable to the alternative.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 04:08:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug  1 03:08:04 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <19e.638001c.2a7a328e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <005201c23944$b5f3ac40$6e09bd50@martinjd>



> >Just turning to the first page of world listings in GT:Rim of Fire, I
>  >see that Darrukesh has 8.2 billion sophonts.  Note that a capital ship
>  >can in theory do quite a handy job on a planet's surface, if desired.
>  >Now, as Grand Admiral of the Darrukesh fleet, would you expend
>  >1.22e-6% of your world's population to prevent that from occuring?
>
> You are discussing survival situations.  The original post concerned an
> ordinary standard tactic to be employed every time "if the navy can
tolerate
> the losses".
> They won't.

Damn right they won't. I chaired this year's Naval Force Protection
convention at the Hatton. One of the speakers was demonstrating BULLFIGHTER,
an advanced decoy system. One point he made was that this system makes more
missiles miss your ship, but often by a smaller margin than older offboard
countermeasures. This was considered entirely acceptable, despite the
(small)  risk that a decoyed missile might still hit another part of the
ship - by accident.

In the cold analysis of the conference room, the assembled personnel (from a
rear-admiral down) agreed that a greater proportion of missiles decoyed was
a very good thing because, as someone put it: surviving to carry out your
mission is necessary. Surviving to do it again is good. But surviving to go
home and collect the medals is what every sailor wants. And he wants to KNOW
that measures have been taken to ensure he will. In almost all situations,
force survivability is necessary to morale.

IE Units will NOT enter routine combat situations where they know they will
be massacred.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 04:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug  1 03:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <193.ac0a39b.2a7a20cf@aol.com>
Message-ID: <007201c23945$6b27eae0$6e09bd50@martinjd>

> >Try the loss rates for some of the RAF's 1000 bomber night attacks,
>  >then. Over 100 bombers in a night wasn't exceptional (IIRC some were
>  >near the 200 mark) and while that rate was unsustainable it wasn't for
>  >lack of volunteers, but because aircraft take time to make and crews
>  >take time to train.
>
> Imminent threats to national survival, of course, change casualty rate
> acceptance.  But the original subject was hundreds of fighter pilots for
the
> one or two lucky shots to kill a capital ship as a standard by-the-book
> tactic.  Never happen.

Besides, bomber crews did so many missions and then OUT. Your odds of
getting killed on any one of those missions were relatively small, but they
stacked up. However, you *knew* you'd probably get out before your number
came up. Whether it was true or not is another matter, but you knew.... if
the odds had been 50% chance of death per mission, and you'll keep on being
sent in again and again, well...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 04:21:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 03:21:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Acceptable losses
Message-ID: <18e.baee50e.2a7a654a@aol.com>

 >I think the idea is to look at new weapons and technology with the idea that
 >standard concepts from the last well may no longer apply.  Certainly, it is
 >impossible to anticipate change.

It is if you are the one driving it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 04:22:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 03:22:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
In-Reply-To: <20020731190152.7587.68152.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020731190152.7587.68152.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <mh2ikusl9irreg7c1m598n5h868l8saqmo@4ax.com>

On Wed, 31 Jul 2002 12:01:52 -0700, "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
wrote:

>WriteFool says

>>From the standpoint of pure economic and management 
>>efficiency I would have to agree, but on the other hand by 
>>creating the traditions and institutional memory of never 
>>giving up on a case and instilling that in to each 
>>generation of policefolk, it might help foster a certain 
>>determination as well as giving some comfort to victims' 
>>families that everything can and will be done and 
>>their losses and justice will not be forgotten.

>I would imagine that such perseverance, or lack thereof, 
>varies from planet to planet across the Imperium.  While they 
>might do things like this on, say, Regina, who can say how 
>they run things - even at the Imperial capital.

>In Washington, D.C., the homicide department is in complete 
>shambles.  I sometimes wonder if the powers that be intend 
>for it to be so.  Cases are lost, forgotten, misplaced...

>And the coroner's office is a complete joke.  It's a sore 
>point for the residents, but nothing, I repeat, nothing has 
>been done to remedy the situation.  

It would be unprofessional of me to comment on how the City of Washington
has mismanaged its police force - and in fact most municipal agencies - by
placing political correctness above professionalism and qualification, so I
will not make any such comments - including not commenting on how a
Washington police officer can be hired with felony convictions on his/her
record, provided that none were more recent than ten years ago at the time
of application.

Nor will I criticize the voters of that city for being stupid enough to
re-elect as mayor a convicted drug dealer, and then expect the tone of the
city to be anything other than what it is.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 05:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 04:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <20020801043903.8532.97422.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020801043903.8532.97422.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <av4ikugatpklat65etuddk08afchu3ve4e@4ax.com>

On Wed, 31 Jul 2002 21:39:03 -0700, "Paul Kerby" <ybrekp@mtco.com> wrote:

>Painted on the wall of the mess hall of the mess hall of the 2nd Armored
>Division(FWD) in Garlstedt Germany...

>"The purpose of the American soldier is not to die for his country, but
>to make the other bastards die for his."  George S. Patton 

And Patton got it wrong, at that - the purpose of the American soldier is
to _severely_maim_ the other bastards.  If you kill him, they can just
leave the body until it's safe to come get it and give it a burial.

If you just maim him, they have to devote manpower and resources to getting
him out of the line of fire, and trying to put him back together.  Which
means less that they can throw at you.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 05:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  1 04:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <200208011139.LVF00463@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>From: Flykiller@aol.com  
>Subject: Re: [TML] sword vs shotgun  
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
> >the best, and I mean the best, adventures are those that 
> >are "two party" adventures - one party of players against 
> >another.  The referee can never buy or write a one-party 
> >adventure that is as tense, hilarious, or as emotional as 
> >a "two party".
> >
> >Especially if the people in both parties know each other 
as 
> >gamers.  The referee doesn't have to do all of the 
thinking 
> >for one side anymore.
>
>(mental eyes opening wide as possibilities come into view)  
Now that _is_ a 
>good idea.  Has this been around for a while and I've missed 
it, or is it 
>something your group came up with?

It's an old idea.  And, it's a very good way to deal with 
those in the playing group who want to be sociopaths.  The 
referee doesn't have to kill them - the other party can try 
their best.  In my case, however, it came out even more often 
than not - being the "good" party doesn't make you 
bulletproof.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 05:45:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Thu Aug  1 04:45:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Website Update
Message-ID: <memo.512928@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <959hkuk7om6pvavlofnoevvto9cvuejv20@4ax.com>
Greetings dear hearts, especially Eris.

It's quite nice. The main sub-sector charts come out nicely, on a 17" 
monitor, might wrap awkwardly on a smaller one.

Devonia - overflows sideways - this seems to be due to the main table 
being set at width="123%" quite unnecessarily. The cells inside are set to 
a total of 100%, and the actual size of the image used would fit (at least 
on the 17" monitor).

You also might want to check the 'Body' tag, put in some elements to 
control colours, etc. Adding in that background from the sub-sector pages 
would be nice too.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 05:46:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  1 04:46:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <200208011145.LVF00804@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Flykiller says
>Yeah, I've seen 'em.  True story:  two female reservists on 
>the gallery deck, looking lost and bored and a little 
>nervous.  One of 'em suddenly brightens, turns to the other 
>and says, "Let's go to the ship's mall!"  The other lights 
>up with happiness and they head for the ladder down to the 
>store.  It was almost more than I could take.
>

I remember doing OPFOR against a Pershing missile platoon.  I 
distinctly remember a 6 foot female soldier and her shorter 
female AG running UP a 400 ft hill with an M-60 to try and 
get around on my left.  Fast, and with some sense of what she 
was doing.  I couldn't get a clear sight picture, and as I 
estimated she was reaching the top of the hill off to my 
left, I displaced, along with my friends.

Turns out she was from the motor pool.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 05:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Thu Aug  1 04:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Kit (as our British friends say)
In-Reply-To: <d4.1b055146.2a7a030a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020801115445.5089.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>

--- GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> 
> One of my favorite bits of reading is a papyrus
> detailing the pay record of a 
> Roman soldier in Egypt ca. 250 AD There are
> deductions for uniform and 
> equipment, mandatory deposit to the unit savings
> bank, contributions to the 
> burial fund (insurance) and the unit Saturnalia
> feast (held around the same 
> time as Christmas), and stoppages to pay for a wine
> bar demolished in the 
> course of a brawl. Every soldier I have ever shown
> it to marvels at the line 
> on the bottom:
> 
> "Copy 2 of 3, for unit archives"
> 
> LKW
> 
  >>
  OMG!!!!! The, the, the......[sigh]......

    MACessna
  >>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 05:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 04:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <1742d8175093.1750931742d8@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 11:41 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] warship optimization in traveller

> From: Flykiller@aol.com
> 
>     "All ships have a large internal cargo capacity enabling them 
> to 
> operate unsupported for up to 10 months.  In addition each fleet task
> force has accompanying supply vessels (with cargo sufficient to 
> completely 
> restock each vessel including themselves),..."
> 
> 
> Sir,
> 
>     What supply rules are you using and where did you find them?
> 
>     "...hospital ships,..."
> 
>     How do you design hospital ships?  How much does a surgical 
> suite 
> displace and how many do you need?  What about ICU berths?  How 
> much in 
> specialized stores will these ships need?

For JTAS subscribers, the recently-completed starship design contest 
(Contest #10) had some excellent hospital ships, albeit mostly using 
design sequences other than HG2.  Note, though, that the winning design 
(not mine, sad to say) was built using HG2.

<<snip>>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 06:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Houghton)
Date: Thu Aug  1 05:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
In-Reply-To: <mh2ikusl9irreg7c1m598n5h868l8saqmo@4ax.com>
References: <20020731190152.7587.68152.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <mh2ikusl9irreg7c1m598n5h868l8saqmo@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020801120705.GA5092@saltmine.radix.net>

Howdy!

On Thu, Aug 01, 2002 at 06:20:46AM -0400, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Jul 2002 12:01:52 -0700, "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
> wrote:
[snip]
> 
> >And the coroner's office is a complete joke.  It's a sore 
> >point for the residents, but nothing, I repeat, nothing has 
> >been done to remedy the situation.  
> 
> It would be unprofessional of me to comment on how the City of Washington
> has mismanaged its police force - and in fact most municipal agencies - by
> placing political correctness above professionalism and qualification, so I
> will not make any such comments - including not commenting on how a
> Washington police officer can be hired with felony convictions on his/her
> record, provided that none were more recent than ten years ago at the time
> of application.

Of course, since I do not work for a police department, there is no
professional courtesy to impede me from agreeing wholeheartedly.
> 
> Nor will I criticize the voters of that city for being stupid enough to
> re-elect as mayor a convicted drug dealer, and then expect the tone of the
> city to be anything other than what it is.
> 

Actually, Barry was not convicted of dealing, just possession ('Bitch
set me up!').

...and then have a mayor who can't manage to have competent and honest
people gather 2500 _valid_ signatures of _real residents_ to get his 
name on the primary ballot...

I may have the governmental entities wrong, but the entity that certified
the petitions to (I think) the board of elections (or whatever they call
it) said that hizonner had enough signatures even after they had tossed
a bunch of petitions for fraud (with about 10000 signatures presented).
The board refused to accept that certification because of the great
number of the remainder that were (ostensibly) gathered by the Bishops,
who each were noted to have provided a large number of the petitions 
that had been tossed for fraudulent signatures. Now hizonner is almost
certain to be stuck running a write-in campaign for the primary.

I'll note that that at the same time DC was reelecting a druggie, the
Virginia GOP was trying to get a liar and oathbreaker elected to the
senate (Ollie North, found guilty by a jury of his peers of a felony --
lying to Congress), and the voters in Maryland rejected a bid by a
convicted former state assemblyman for reelection.

obTrav: well...a political campaign anywhere would be livened up by
a little controversy...or a politician running for reelection from his
jail cell... 

yours,
Michael
-- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 06:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Brian Caball)
Date: Thu Aug  1 05:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Kit (as our British friends say)
In-Reply-To: <20020801115445.5089.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020801115445.5089.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <02080113001703.22132@avlendris>

> > "Copy 2 of 3, for unit archives"
>   OMG!!!!! The, the, the......[sigh]......

This seems to be flying right over my head... is that what the modern 
equivalents also say or something?

-Brian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 06:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Thu Aug  1 05:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <F63cEcLsXJB7oDaSeXn000225a2@hotmail.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote, in many posts:
>You are discussing survival situations.  The original post
>concerned an ordinary standard tactic to be employed every time
>"if the navy can tolerate the losses". They won't.

What's the difference, considering what a starfleet can
do, between "ordinary" situations and "survival" situations?
If two main fleets are banging heads for real, there *will*
be planetary populations (the ownership of, if not the lives
of) at stake.

>Sure.  I'll play you -- if you can handle it.

This is a paper-and-pencil *game* we are talking about.
"Handling it" is just a matter of whether I choose to play
or not.  This ain't full-contact team biathalon here.

>  >Rock, Paper, Scissors.  Your calculations don't go far enough.
>
>Could be.  Let's find out.  Show me.  Can you handle it?

It amuses me far more to watch you beg.

>Tonnages!  I want tonnages!  And I want to know every reason
>why you put in what you did and left out what you did.

Like this, for example.

>Show me your choices.  I'd love to see 'em.

My choice is to let someone else put up with you during
your education.

>I really do want to hear from your superior wisdom.

My "superior wisdom" tells me to sit back and chuckle at
you for a while.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 06:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 05:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
Message-ID: <20020801123223.5AA10451A@mo130uhou.palm.net>

Rob Davenport <rgd@infinet.com> wrote:
>	Ed Wood's "Starship Troopers" 

Kenji Schwartz gave a good rant compairing ST to an Ed Wood movie.
You can find it on my SciFi sig quote page. 


>-- 
>Rob Davenport -- rgd at infinet dot com 
>More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases: 
> Spero nos familiares mansuros. 
> I hope we'll still be friends. 

----------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 07:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Thu Aug  1 06:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Warships
In-Reply-To: <15b.11cdff0f.2a79e836@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D49DB0E.15430.8A1F01@localhost>

On 31 Jul 2002, at 21:26, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> Very good, and I mostly agree.  But please post a tonnage allocation for such
> an interface combat ship.  I'd love to see what you mean by "designed for it"

Well here's one I knocked up quickly. Doubtless its far from optimal, but 
you'll get the idea.

Ship: Terror
Class: Erebus
Type: Bomb Ketch
Architect: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
Tech Level: 15

USP
         BK-H9059J3-L59005-55545-0 MCr 5,624.770 8 KTons
Bat Bear             1   1 15118   Crew: 110
Bat                  1   1 15118   TL: 15

Cargo: 170 Fuel: 720.000 EP: 720 Agility: 5 Shipboard Security Detail: 8 
Marines: 25 Drop Capsules: 140
Craft: 2 x 50T Cutters
Fuel Treatment: On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/9fib Computer 1 x Bridge 1 x Factor 9 Meson Screen

Architects Fee: MCr 56.048   Cost in Quantity: MCr 4,503.816


Detailed Description

HULL
8,000.000 tons standard, 112,000.000 cubic meters, Buffered Planetoid 
Configuration

CREW
15 Officers, 70 Ratings, 25 Marines

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 5G Manuever, Power plant-9, 720.000 EP, Agility 5

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/9fib Computer
1 Backup Bridge, 1 Model/9fib Backup Computer

HARDPOINTS
3 50-ton bays, 50 Hardpoints

ARMAMENT
1 50-ton Meson Bay (Factor-4), 1 50-ton Particle Accelerator Bay (Factor-
5), 40 Triple Missile Turrets organised into 8 Batteries (Factor-5), 3 Triple 
Beam Laser Turrets organised into 1 Battery (Factor-5), 5 Dual Fusion Gun 
Turrets organised into 5 Batteries (Factor-5)

DEFENCES
1 50-ton Repulsor Bay (Factor-5), 2 Triple Sandcaster Turrets organised 
into 1 Battery (Factor-5), Meson Screen (Factor-9), Armoured Hull (Factor-
20)
1 Meson Screen Backup (Factor-9)

CRAFT
2 50.000 ton Cutters (Crew of 1, Cost of MCr 10.000)

FUEL
720.000 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
No Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
58 Staterooms, 140 Drop Capsule Launchers, 170 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
1 Missile Magazine (100.000 tons, Crew 0, Cost MCr 10.000)

COST
MCr 5,660.818 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 56.048), MCr 4,483.816 
in Quantity, plus MCr 20.000 of Carried Craft

CONSTRUCTION TIME
156 Weeks Singly, 125 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
Important factors
1) Planetary assaults are planned and this ship is not intended for line of 
battle work therefore a rider is optimal, and endurance functions (eg 
supplies, reloads etc) can be moved to the tender.
2) The buffered planetoid configuration allows sufficent armour to render the 
vessel immune to all but meson fire and gives good protection against 
meson fire
3) Since the ship is operating in orbit, minimal agility is acceptable
4) The jump capsules allow rapid evacuation and recovery by friendly 
vessels
5) Since the ships is immune to missile fire due to the heavy armour, 
nuclear dampers are unneccessary
6) The backup meson screen, computer and bridge extend the surviability
7) The primary armarment of missiles allows a wide range of deadfall 
weaponry
8) The single PA is for use against vacuum targets

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 07:07:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 06:07:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Published Trav Authors
Message-ID: <1b62a01b63e3.1b63e31b62a0@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 11:56 am
Subject: Re: [TML] Published Trav Authors

> At 12:21 PM 7/30/2002 +1000, you wrote:
> >Yahhhhhh! The Citizens of the Imperium website
> >accepted my patron encounter. So now I am being
> >published (online) by an official Trav lisencee. Where
> >do I send away for my offcial Trav Authors flying
> >scarf and tweed jacket set? ;P I can also get in all
> >the really classy bars! 
> 
> Go to the corner of Third and Main (doesn't matter in what city.)  
> Look for
> a man wearing a black "I Wished For GDSM And All I Got Was This 
> Lousy +3
> T-Shirt" Nethack shirt.  If he is eating pepperoni pizza, it is 
> safe to
> approach.  Say "I understand the penguins are wintering in St 
> Moritz."  He
> will say "No, it is to touristy.  They prefer Telluride."  Your 
> final sign
> will be to tug on your right earlobe and say "Penguins? I meant 
> the Royal
> Family. It is hard to tell them apart. Or maybe the Osbournes."

Hmmm.  They must have changed the recognition codes again.  At least, 
that's not the recognition sequence I was given after _101 
Corporations_ was published.  Sadly, I was mobilized for Sinai before I 
could be formally initiated.  Perhaps next year, ideally at BayCon 
(assuming I'm not mobilized yet again) :-(.

At least I won't have to take Greyhound from Baton Rouge for my next 
BayCon, since my Bosnia earnings allowed me to buy a used minivan and 
set it up as a one-man RV....
> 
> If this is carried out to the agent's satisfaction, you will be 
> drugged,blindfolded, and taken to the Traveller Writers' Secret 
> UndergroundHeadquarters.  There, you will be prepared for 
> initiation.  Please let the
> nice doctors know your blood type *before* the test of the Pit of 
> RabidWeasels and Equally Rabid Editors.

Ah, but that takes all the challenge out of it.

<<snip>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 07:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn Crawford)
Date: Thu Aug  1 06:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Starship Troopers
Message-ID: <F10888MMAv7Nf4086xB00003354@hotmail.com>

George Lucas' Starship Troopers

Wesa powah infantree gonna die?

Far be it from me to question your stupid civilisation or dumb customs...
S. Fry


_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 07:40:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Thu Aug  1 06:40:04 2002
Subject: N-dimensional law-levels (was Re: [TML] sword vs shotgun)
In-Reply-To: <200207311911.13195.red@archonet.com>
Message-ID: <000001c23961$00f0b0a0$6501a8c0@Darla>

DGP's World Builder's handbook detailed law levels into sub-levels for
Weapons, Trade, Criminal Law, Civil Law and Personal Freedom, which
seems like a reasonable breakdown.

Perhaps the TAS publications use weapons as the published law level so
travelers can have an idea about what they can strap up with before they
hit dirt...

TWB



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 09:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Aug  1 08:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <F137of0aYhHnKZ1nSIz0000ee76@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     The increasingly goofy warship optimization thread sent me off waddling 
the 'Net courtesy of Google.  A short search pulled up a few interesting 
facts regarding to times during WW2 in which aircraft, and their flight 
crews, were "traded" for warships.

Midway - We all know this story; torpedo squadrons pressing home futile 
attack after attack, drawing Japanese attention towards sea level and away 
from the arriving dive bombers in an unplanned, but wildly successful, 
tactic.
     The three squadrons involved flew Devastators, NOT Swordfish as earlier 
posted.  The incrediably elderly Swordfish biplane belonged the RAF's Fleet 
Air Arm (the RN couldn't design or "own" its embarked aircraft!  D'oh!).  
The USN's Devastators had been in service ~7 years and was an obselescent 
design too, although not as bad as the Swordfish(1).
     The three squadrons involved were; VT-3, flown from USS Yorktown, VT-6, 
flown from USS Enterprise, and VT-8 flown from USS Hornet.
     Losses are as follows:
VT-3, 10 of 12 aircraft, 20 of 24 men
VT-6, 10 of 14 aircraft, 20 of 28 men
VT-8, 15 of 15 aircraft, 29 of 30 men
     for a total of:
      35 aircraft and 69 men

     In "return", the USN sank three IJN carriers (before you squawk, please 
note the fourth IJN carrier lost was sunk later in the day and not during 
this specific airstrike).  Let's call it ~10 aircraft and ~20 men per 
warship destroyed.
     Midway was a special case; the IJN needed to be stopped, the USN was 
weak, Midway, Pearl, and ultimately the West Coast needed to be defended, so 
the Americans probably employed somewhat desperate tactics or weren't too 
squeamish about losses as long as the battle was won.
     Now let's look at a not so desperate situation.

The IJN Yamato - The USMC and USA are fighting on Okinawa and the USN is 
close offshore fighting too.  Kamikazes are making life rather difficult for 
the USN, but they're holding their own.  Then the largest kamikaze of them 
all is sent along, the Yamato.
     On 7 APR 1945, USN carriers send 400 aircraft at the Yamato to prevent 
her from arriving at Okinawa.  They lose 10 aircraft and 12 men sending her 
to the bottom, roughly comparable to the numbers it took to sink an IJN CV 
at Midway.  Was this "sacrifice" really necessary?  Would the Yamato have 
reached Okinawa and interfered with the fighting there?
     No.
     The USN had already pulled SIX BBs off the gunline, plus the usual 
assortment of escorting CAs and DDs, to tackle the Yamato if she made it 
through the airstrikes.  Yamato was going to be sunk one way or the other, 
either via massed airstrikes or an extremely one-sided surface engagement.
     So why did the USN "waste" 10 planes and 12 men to sink her, when the 
battleline could have done the job?  Because, the airstrikes were cheaper.  
The US casulties and damage incurred in a gun duel with the Yamato would 
have been far greater than 12 men and the costs of 10 planes.
     When the conditions are right and the options are limited, militaries 
will make these sort of trades all the time.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 09:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 08:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <e6.2be0ca41.2a7a3051@aol.com>
References: <e6.2be0ca41.2a7a3051@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3ptx2twnf.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
>
> But there is a big difference between what you are saying and what
> was implied in the original post.

There's a big difference between what you are inferring and what the
original post stated.  It simply stated, IIRC, that it might take 100
fighters to eliminate a capital ship.  It implied, again IIRC, nothing
about the size of the wave which would lose the 100.

> I'll say again regarding the original post: any pack of pilots that
> would volunteer to die by the hundreds to kill one capital ship as a
> regular ordinary tactic will all be at level 0.  There will be no
> experienced person to train or lead them.

I'll say again: it depends on the size of the wave.  How large were
the British waves in WWII when 100-200 a night were lost?  How large
might a Traveller wave be?  If it's 105, you may be right.  If it's
13,000 you're very probably wrong.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
With the Smart Ship's reputation so far, they will have to build a bloody
big trebuchet for the damn thing to be useful as a weapon.
                                         --Derry Hamilton

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:02:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:02:05 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <e6.2be0ca41.2a7a3051@aol.com>
References: <e6.2be0ca41.2a7a3051@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3ptx2twnf.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
>
> But there is a big difference between what you are saying and what
> was implied in the original post.

There's a big difference between what you are inferring and what the
original post stated.  It simply stated, IIRC, that it might take 100
fighters to eliminate a capital ship.  It implied, again IIRC, nothing
about the size of the wave which would lose the 100.

> I'll say again regarding the original post: any pack of pilots that
> would volunteer to die by the hundreds to kill one capital ship as a
> regular ordinary tactic will all be at level 0.  There will be no
> experienced person to train or lead them.

I'll say again: it depends on the size of the wave.  How large were
the British waves in WWII when 100-200 a night were lost?  How large
might a Traveller wave be?  If it's 105, you may be right.  If it's
13,000 you're very probably wrong.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
With the Smart Ship's reputation so far, they will have to build a bloody
big trebuchet for the damn thing to be useful as a weapon.
                                         --Derry Hamilton

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:02:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:02:39 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <bf.241eecb7.2a7a4368@aol.com>
References: <bf.241eecb7.2a7a4368@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3lm7qtwhm.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
> 
> Yes, with a huge Japanese fleet threatening their homeland and only
> them standing between the yellow peril and their families.  It was
> not, however, a standard tactic, employed "because they'll tolerate
> it".

You keep on making a distinction between `fighting for survival' and
`standard tactics.'  I get the impression that you view the Frontier
Wars as something like our involvement in Panama or Afghanistan (or
Nicaragua, Cuba, Vietnam, Korea &c.) and unlike our involvment in,
say, WWII.  I strenously disagree.  To an Imperial world, the thought
of being captured by the Zhodani is every bit as bad as being captured
by the Japanese was to a Hawaiian.  Sure, the fellows from the Vegan
polity might not care as much, but the soldiers, pilots &c. from the
worlds in question very much _would_.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I love the way Microsoft follows standards.  In much the same manner
that fish follow migrating caribou.                   --Paul Tomblin

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:03:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:03:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Starship Troopers
In-Reply-To: <F10888MMAv7Nf4086xB00003354@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020801154829.54251.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>

Then there's

Ernest Joins the Federation
  Starring Ernest P Whorrel as Johnny "Ernest" Rico

[shudder]


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:04:03 2002
Subject: Service Pay ( [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CC3@USCHM203>

>Robert Uhl wrote:

> "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> writes:
> Huh,  I thought that was only officers.  That just seems wrong to me
> (not that you're wrong; that they're wrong to do it that way).  Did
> y'all have to pay for your foods & cooks too?

Food was free, and I have to be honest, it was good food everywhere I was
stationed. Not restaurant quality, but better than the high school
cafeteria.


Tod L Glenn wrote:

>What service and when?  When I went through The Ft. Benning school for boys
>(Summer 1980), we were paid in cash monthly.  $600 dollars, as I recall.
>Accountable property was just that.  It was signed out to you, and you were
>expected to sign it back in.  Anything missing or damaged, you paid for.

Tod,
	USMC, 1986. Our pay was close to $800 a month. Never knew anyone who
lost a rifle, but people would lose web gear, canteens, and such. 
	Sometimes guys were tempted to "lose" some items just so they could
have them at home when they got out. NO WEAPONS!!! They don't just write
that off. There WILL be an investigation, and you'll get 20 years in
Leavenworth. Not only that, but any Marine, however good friends you are,
would dissuade you or turn you in. At least I hope they would.
	Mostly it was small stuff like web gear and magazine holders.
Perhaps a flak jacket or gas mask. As it is, you can pick all that stuff up
at surplus stores (though at a MUCH higher cost).
	I do know a guy from Spartanburg, SC who took home an empty Dragon
Tube, but it still had the end caps. Last I heard he mounted it above his
fireplace.
	For the record, they don't let you take used LAW tubes, spent brass,
or training grenades home. I tried to take some spent 40mm Grenade
cartridges home that we used as ashtrays, and they confiscated them at the
airport.

	ObTrav, imagine having your pay docked for an FGMP-15? Hope you
planned on staying in for 5 terms!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:04:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:04:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <8d.1bfa1383.2a7a4253@aol.com>
References: <8d.1bfa1383.2a7a4253@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3heietvzo.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
>
> > The point of my video game comment was to illustrate that it's not
> > unrealistic that fighter pilot skills might conceivably be learned
> > from games.  I still believe that to be the case; you've certainly
> > not demonstrated otherwise.
> 
> Try contacting a real fighter pilot sometime.  Ask him if fighter
> pilot skills might be learned from sophisticated games.

Sure, not now: a video game, even a military simulator, is simply not
possible of fully-simulating flight, combat &c.  But thousands of
years in the future that's not an issue.  If you can damp inertia and
fake gravity, you can fake the motions and sensations of combat.  If
you can broadcast in 3D, you can generate a photo-realistic world
outside the phony cockpit windows.  The only thing you _cannot_
simulate is the fear of death--and real military training cannot AFAIK
do that either; only actual flight time can do that.

> Ask your local recruiter--maybe he has a pilot come in once in a
> while to help him recruit.  Or heck, you could even call a nearby
> AFB or naval base, contact the liaison, and ask to speak to a pilot
> for ten minutes or so.  But it would be better if you can look him
> in the eye as he talks to you.

You seem to think that I am foolish enough to believe that a modern
video game can teach flight skills.  I'm not: I'm writing about
`games' thousands of years in the future.

How about you do the reverse: go to a computer scientist or computer
engineer.  Ask him if, assuming inertial damping, artifical gravity
and photo-realistic three-dimension and two thousand years of Moore's
Law, computers will be able to completely simulate a flight and
combat.  Look him in the eye when you do so.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
My word processor was written by Stanford Professor Donald Knuth.  Who
wrote yours?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:05:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:05:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <F228Wv2vyWb6cxHKx7000010140@hotmail.com>

     "...although not as bad as the Swordfish(1)."


Ladies and Gentlemen,

     Please excuse me, I forgot to add the footnote.


(1) - The Swordfishs' very obs0lescence may have actually helped it survive 
in battle.  A most likely apophrycal story from the Bismarck saga has the 
German AA fire missing the attacking Swordfish because the aircraft were 
moving too SLOW, the AA crews led their targets by too much.  Swordfish made 
their torpedo runs at ~90 mph and weather conditions could drop that speed 
even further.
     The Swordfish may been viwed as a joke by other navies, it still got 
the job done at Taranto and with the Bismarck however.


_________________________________________________________________
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http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:05:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:05:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <003b01c23943$a8f1b4c0$6e09bd50@martinjd>
References: <8d.1bfa1383.2a7a4253@aol.com>
 <003b01c23943$a8f1b4c0$6e09bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <m3d6t2tvro.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> writes:
> 
> I play Tekken against my training partner quite a lot.  But you
> know?  We get out fighting skills from hitting one another for real.
> Pushing buttons just doesn't give the feedback.  Or the blood and
> snot.

Piloting is not fighting--it's driving a vehicle.  Given a real
cockpit with the controls connected to a computer, given a
photorealistic 3D display, given inertia simulators and artificial
gravity (same thing?  I dunno.), given a computer roughly
6.14250342873998e234 as powerful as a modern August 2002 computer, you
_could_ accurately simulate a flight, and accurately simulate
anti-aircraft measures, and accurately simulate birds, and accurately
simulate explosions nearby (and far away, for that matter), and
accurately simulate weather, and accurately simulate the stresses of
flying &c. &c. &c.

The only reasonable objections are that inertial simulation and
artificial grav are impossible, that photorealistic 3D displays are
impossible or that Moore's Law will not hold up for two thousand
years.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Contrary to popular opinion there often is a right answer.
            --Carter & Sanger, Thinking about Programming

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:06:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:06:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <000501c2392c$7b7b0800$6f7ba8c0@kenneith93j41k>
References: <f3.1ed9f0cb.2a7a396a@aol.com>
 <000501c2392c$7b7b0800$6f7ba8c0@kenneith93j41k>
Message-ID: <m38z3qtvlw.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Joseph Elric Smith Mormon minion of Arioch" <kruch7@cox.net> writes:
>
> That is the whole argument of detant, that the cost would be too
> high if both sides went to war.

Which doesn't work, if one side has a significantly different cost
model than the other.  Acc. to my father, the Russians were never
nearly as worried about nuclear war as we were.  The reason?  They can
march to Europe.

Note I don't say they were unworried; simply that the leadership did
not view it as the completely and utterly unmitigated disaster that
ours did.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`How do you explain bikini underwear and chocolate 
 sprinkles pressed between pages 102 and 103 of the 
 Canterbury Tales?  It must have been quite an evening.'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:06:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:06:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CC5@USCHM203>

James Ramsay wrote:
 Re:"but a fighter pilot is the entire crew" 

>All he has to do is launch his missiles and run! He is
>only one ship of many. The odds are probably in favor
>of him surviving.

	I don't know if my logic was unsound, but this is one of the reasons
I signed up for infantry rather than armor or even the air wing. And why I
never wanted to be on a ship (let alone a sub).
As deadly as it is for infantry during a battle, being one of many still
makes me feel like less of a target than being in a tank. Years later I have
read many accounts of WWII infantry veterans who did not want to be anywhere
near a tank or heavy weapon because they knew it was going to draw attention
and fire.
	It's easier to pop off a few rounds and squeeze my 170 lbs (many
years ago) behind cover than it is to hide a tank or field gun after firing.
Hell, I can disappear in a small clump of bushes if I have to.
	Statistically, it might not be as safe. I'm sure someone can come up
with figures. Regardless, psychologically it seems to make sense. I imagine
fighter pilots in large squadrons feel less exposed as well. Safety in
numbers and all that. Perception over reality, perhaps, but I bet that,
given the choice of crossing a river under fire on a large 200 man barge or
20 ten man boats, most people would take the latter.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] juries
In-Reply-To: <108.15a4adbc.2a7a6208@aol.com>
References: <108.15a4adbc.2a7a6208@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m34reetvfp.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
> 
> > Amateur juries seem to me to be ill equipped to handle many kinds
> > of cases.
> 
> True.  And irrelevant to why they exist.  Juries aren't meant to be 
> professional, quite the opposite.  Juries are meant to be a last and final 
> check and balance against governmental power over individual citizens.  The 
> government can't put anyone in jail unless they can get a bunch of amateur 
> citizens to agree.  It's preferable to the alternative.

And here I'll agree with you whole-heartedly.  Juries are _supposed_
to give every benefit of the doubt to the accused.  Hence the jury of
one's peers (which I think could arguably be extended to mean race,
sex and class).  Hence the myriad of protections for the accused.
hence the rules on evidence-gathering.  All so that, once that guilty
verdict is read, we can _believe_ it and act accordingly, that is
deprive the convicted man of life, liberty or property as punishment.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
You see, in the post-televisual world we read.  --John Gipson

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:07:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Strain)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:07:39 2002
Subject: [TML] John Strain where have you gone? (Antony Farrell)
References: <20020801134003.15380.76944.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <01fd01c23976$2bdb1f20$a03a3140@dixienet.com>

ARGGGg, shoot! I am not suprised one bit - I have had the highest 'bounce'
rate this past month ever! ~~ John

email  missingjn@dixie-net.com      strain_john@hotmail.com
 strainjohn@yahoo.com     strain_john@ivillage.com     pick one...or try
them all.

> From: "Antony Farrell"  Subject: [TML] John Strain where have you gone?
> are you still here? The emails I sent to you regarding the graphics you
want
> to use have been bouncing. Something about invalid return address.
> Could you try sending me another email   Antony



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:09:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:09:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Acceptable losses
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CC8@USCHM203>

>Flykiller wrote:

>I read somewhere that during the War Between the States the Northern armies

>would place new recruits in entirely new brigades, which made them
>unreliable 
>at first, while the Southern armies would install their new recruits in 
>established armies, which steadied their new recruits greatly.

Not exactly relevant, but mention of the Civil War reminded me of what one
of my South Carolinian friends told me:

"You know what the difference was between a rich Yankee and a rich
Southerner? The rich Yankee paid someone to take his place in the army, and
the rich Southerner outfitted his own regiment."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:10:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:10:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <20020801122203.46aeed42cde04f34877f57ddbe49f2bf.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>     The three squadrons involved flew Devastators, NOT Swordfish as earlier 
>posted.  The incrediably elderly Swordfish biplane belonged the RAF's Fleet 
>Air Arm (the RN couldn't design or "own" its embarked aircraft!  D'oh!).  

Well, until just before World War 2.  Then it was the Royal NAVY's Fleet Air
Arm again, only after much struggle.  One of the less brilliant ideas of
Hugh Trenchard when he was creating the RAF, including both the Royal Flying
Corp and the RN's air arm.  

The design part is true, until World War Two.  Which also meant the Royal
Navy and the British aviation industry had lacked experience of designing
and building carrier-borne aircraft, which meant it took to near the end of
the war before the RN had a good indigenous (Plenty of American carrier
aircraft available.), dedicated carrier-borne aircraft (The Seafire did not
start life as a carrier aircraft.).

>The USN's Devastators had been in service ~7 years and was an obselescent 
>design too, although not as bad as the Swordfish(1).

The Swordfish was not bad....And for the role it was intended, it was
probably better then the TBD!  Which is a sad commentary on US naval
aviation more then anything else.

I would also nominate Operation PEDESTAL, the fighting around Crete, much of
the Mediterranean war, etc.

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

 My Sale List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
 My Want List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:11:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:11:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Acceptable losses
In-Reply-To: <m3bs8ngokq.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <20020731235711.7e8b877379fe414d85fbfc7414631d19.in@keywest.kennett.net>
 <20020731235711.7e8b877379fe414d85fbfc7414631d19.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801091513.4667c4d0@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:01 PM 7/31/2002 -0600, you wrote:

>No, you don't understand.  Every unit must have a Texan (known as
>Tex), a Brooklyner, a racist Southerner, an effete intellectual, a Jew
>and half-a-dozen Midwesterners.  At least, acc. to the war movies:-)

Been reading Ground Forces again?

(For those who don't have it (shame on you!) I included a pile of
sterotypical war-movie types, and how to build them.  The Opie, the
Get-Over Artist, Casanovas, Old Sergeants...)
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Embrace Fascism.    The uniforms look cool


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:12:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:12:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Con Jose the World SF Con any Travellers going?
In-Reply-To: <200208010315.g713FgD09733@sun.ebtech.net>
References: <005601c23562$877a46c0$810fbd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801092023.45176588@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:12 PM 7/31/2002 -500, you wrote:
>Hi I'll be at Con Jose working the Coffeeklatches
>
>Anyone else planning on attending?

I'll be there, working publications.

>Maybe we could get together over a meal to talk Traveller.

It would be fun.  May I suggest that anyone attending ConJose subscribe to
Travller in SF.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TravellerinSF/

So we can coordinate a meeting time and place.  If we want to do an actual
dinner, I need to know how many people are coming.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
- Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:12:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:12:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Kit (as our British friends say)
In-Reply-To: <d4.1b055146.2a7a030a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801092658.4c07ad3c@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:20 PM 7/31/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>One of my favorite bits of reading is a papyrus detailing the pay record
of a 
>Roman soldier in Egypt ca. 250 AD There are deductions for uniform and 
>equipment, mandatory deposit to the unit savings bank, contributions to the 
>burial fund (insurance) and the unit Saturnalia feast (held around the same 
>time as Christmas), and stoppages to pay for a wine bar demolished in the 
>course of a brawl. Every soldier I have ever shown it to marvels at the line 
>on the bottom:
>
>"Copy 2 of 3, for unit archives"

Good lord, a Roman LES?  (Leave and Earning Statement)  Just goes to show
why the Empire fell, they developed a military bureaucracy.

What is the Latin for Rear Echelon Mother-F**ker?
--

Duugirashir Irebamenagiin  gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
Inquisitor Maximus, Reformed Canon Church of Sylea


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:13:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:13:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Kit (as our British friends say)
In-Reply-To: <02080113001703.22132@avlendris>
References: <20020801115445.5089.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>
 <20020801115445.5089.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801092932.4517038c@pop.mindspring.com>

At 01:00 PM 8/1/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>
>> > "Copy 2 of 3, for unit archives"
>>   OMG!!!!! The, the, the......[sigh]......
>
>This seems to be flying right over my head... is that what the modern 
>equivalents also say or something?

The modern US Military has a form called the Leave and Earning Statement
(LES) that details your rank, pay received, and any deductions made such as
AUSA dues (Association of the US Army), insurance, and forfeiture of pay
due to Article 15 punishments.  There are several copies, one of which is
stored at the battalion-level in case there is a problem with your pay.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:13:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:13:51 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
In-Reply-To: <200207312007.LTZ05292@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801093246.4c070802@pop.mindspring.com>

At 04:07 PM 7/31/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>"Glenn M. Goffin" says
>>So, John, are you a sociopath in real life, or do you just 
>>play one in RPGs?
>
>In real life, the Army saw fit to conduct a psychological 
>evaluation, and on the commander's recommendation, I was sent 
>to sniper school.  Later, when I became a software 
>consultant...

Hey!  They gave me a pysch eval before I was assigned to sniper school!
Evidently, I was just sociopathic enough for their purposes...
-- 

Douglas E. Berry      gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"Well, thanks to the Internet, I'm now bored
 with sex." - Fry, Futurama

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:14:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:14:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Acceptable losses
In-Reply-To: <18e.baee50e.2a7a654a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801093629.477f1bde@pop.mindspring.com>

At 06:19 AM 8/1/2002 EDT, you wrote:
> >I think the idea is to look at new weapons and technology with the idea 
> >that standard concepts from the last well may no longer apply.  Certainly, 
> >it is impossible to anticipate change.
>
>It is if you are the one driving it.

Not really.  Sometimes, changes you intiate have consequences that you
can't predict.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:14:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:14:56 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <av4ikugatpklat65etuddk08afchu3ve4e@4ax.com>
References: <20020801043903.8532.97422.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <20020801043903.8532.97422.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801094055.44fff8cc@pop.mindspring.com>

At 06:58 AM 8/1/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>And Patton got it wrong, at that - the purpose of the American soldier is
>to _severely_maim_ the other bastards.  If you kill him, they can just
>leave the body until it's safe to come get it and give it a burial.
>
>If you just maim him, they have to devote manpower and resources to getting
>him out of the line of fire, and trying to put him back together.  Which
>means less that they can throw at you.

It is a violation of the laws of land warfare to intentionally shoot to
maim or injure an enemy combatant.  You are supposed to go for the kill.
This mainly applies to snipers, who have been known to wound enemy soldiers
as bait for rescue attempts.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:17:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:17:10 2002
Subject: Service Pay ( [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <2c231b2c59ae.2c59ae2c231b@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>
Date: Thursday, August 1, 2002 6:42 pm
Subject: Re: Service Pay ( [TML] warship optimization in traveller

<<snip>> 
> 
> Tod L Glenn wrote:
> 
> >What service and when?  When I went through The Ft. Benning 
> school for boys
> >(Summer 1980), we were paid in cash monthly.  $600 dollars, as I 
> recall.>Accountable property was just that.  It was signed out to 
> you, and you were
> >expected to sign it back in.  Anything missing or damaged, you 
> paid for.
> 

This practice goes a long way to explaining why captains go down with 
the ship.... ;-)

<<snip>>
> 
> 	ObTrav, imagine having your pay docked for an FGMP-15? Hope you
> planned on staying in for 5 terms!

I've always wanted to see the hand receipt for a _Tigress_....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <2d16412cfe49.2cfe492d1641@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Thursday, August 1, 2002 7:24 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships

<<snip>>
> 
> >The USN's Devastators had been in service ~7 years and was an 
> obselescent 
> >design too, although not as bad as the Swordfish(1).
> 
> The Swordfish was not bad....And for the role it was intended, it was
> probably better then the TBD!  Which is a sad commentary on US naval
> aviation more then anything else.

OTOH, the Stringbag was never sent into battle against carrier-based 
fighters.  The TBD pilots at Midway, meanwhile, had to try to survive 
without fighter cover against the A6M Zero.  Hardly a fair contest (of 
course, any military leader who tries to fight war _fairly_ isn't doing 
the job correctly).

<<snip>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:21:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:21:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Character Conversions
Message-ID: <20020801172052.47546.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>

Has anyone ever come up with a good character
conversion system?  I mean one that allows for
conversion to CT, MT, TNE, T4, GT, and T20.

I know that some of these are very similar (MT & T4),
but what about the others?

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Character Conversions
Message-ID: <2dbfaf2d6ae3.2d6ae32dbfaf@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com>
Date: Thursday, August 1, 2002 8:20 pm
Subject: [TML] Character Conversions

> Has anyone ever come up with a good character
> conversion system?  I mean one that allows for
> conversion to CT, MT, TNE, T4, GT, and T20.
> 
> I know that some of these are very similar (MT & T4),
> but what about the others?

CT, MT and T4 chargen rules are similar enough (at least if you use LBB 
4+ for your CT characters) that conversion is fairly straightforward.  
IIRC (I failed to pack my copy for shipment to Sinai), _Survival Margin_ 
includes notes on converting MT characters to TNE.  Similarly, the base 
GT rulebook includes conversion rules for most, if not all, previous 
Trav rulesets.  Someone else will have to answer about T20.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:31:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:31:05 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CC1@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801101615.43af8f6e@pop.mindspring.com>

At 05:48 PM 7/31/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>I assume the other veterans experienced this as well. I'm curious if you
>were as surprised as I was.

In the US Army of the early-mid 80s, all my basic issue was just that:
issued.  I was authorized four sets of BDUs, two pairs of boots, combat,
leather, etc..  I could always exchange a set that had become damaged or
worn for a new set.  Of course, I bought extra sets of BDUs so I had a
parade-ready issue set at all times. (The "field-gear" got stuffed in a car
trunk during command inspections.)

Things like our LBE, shelter halves, fart sacks and the like were issued at
the organizational level, and had to be turned in when we were transfered,
which was a bitch and a half for cleaning.

>Oh, and they also charged us for haircuts. As if we had a choice.

Barbar shop was a civilian contractor, he made his money shaving recruits
and cutting hair for soldiers.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Embrace Fascism.    The uniforms look cool


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:31:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:31:35 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <193.ac0a39b.2a7a20cf@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801102115.43afd25a@pop.mindspring.com>

At 01:27 AM 8/1/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>Imminent threats to national survival, of course, change casualty rate 
>acceptance.  But the original subject was hundreds of fighter pilots for the 
>one or two lucky shots to kill a capital ship as a standard by-the-book 
>tactic.  Never happen.

Look up the Battle of Midway.  The IJN Hiryu was caught reloading and
refueling by American dive bombers.  It took three hits and was on fire and
sank soon afterwards.  Another of the Japanese carriers absorbed a dozen
hits beofre sinking.

The Golden Shot does occur, that's why we try.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:32:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:32:07 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <bf.241eecb7.2a7a4368@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801102509.44ff225e@pop.mindspring.com>

At 03:55 AM 8/1/2002 EDT, you wrote:
> >>asking hundreds of them at a time to give up their lives all 
> >>at once, just to make a tactic work, in one segment of a 
> >>single battle, is not an insignificant outlay for THEM.  
> >>(push button) "go do this, guys."  (lights 
> >>flash) "ok."  it doesn't work that way.
> > 
> >See the battle of Midway.  The low level torpedo attack 
> >planes that sacrificed themselves to Japanese anti-aircraft 
> >fire so that the dive bombers would have a chance.
>
>Yes, with a huge Japanese fleet threatening their homeland and only them 
>standing between the yellow peril and their families.  It was not, however, 
>a standard tactic, employed "because they'll tolerate it".

Wrong.  Hawaii was a colony at the time, and the actual United states was
2000 miles away.  The Navy pilots did their jobs because that's what they
were trained to do.  Because that was the mission: sink those flat-tops.

Read up on the Battle of Camerone, or Gallipoli, or Verdun.  Soldiers can
and will sacrifice themselves for a greater purpose.
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <F137of0aYhHnKZ1nSIz0000ee76@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000001c23982$55e0e910$6501a8c0@Darla>

As an elaboration, the torpedo squadrons at Midway did not score any
hits -- but, quite by accident, they drew the Japanese fighter cover
down to sea level and cleared the way for the divebomber attacks that
sank three carriers.

This was not a deliberate "trade".  It just happened that way.  The
torpedo squadrons pressed their attack because they knew it was their
duty to do so.  They did not have ANY knowledge that they were setting
up a coordinated attack, or even of the presence of either of the two
other torpedo squadrons.  They attacked out of their determination to
close with and destroy the enemy:

"My greatest hope is that we encounter a favorable tactical situation,
but if we don't, and the worst comes to the worst, I want each of us to
do his utmost to destroy our enemies.  If there is only one plane left
to make a final run in, I want that man to go in and get a hit.  May God
go with us all."  --- John C. Waldron, CO TORPEDO EIGHT, 4 June 1942

The point being, that warriors fighting for what they believe it do not
weigh the cost in the moment of combat -- they do their duty, and there
is little that they cannot accomplish.


Thomas Barnes



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Acceptable losses
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020801091513.4667c4d0@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <20020731235711.7e8b877379fe414d85fbfc7414631d19.in@keywest.kennett.net>
 <20020731235711.7e8b877379fe414d85fbfc7414631d19.in@keywest.kennett.net>
 <3.0.5.16.20020801091513.4667c4d0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m3lm7qsbz0.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes:
> 
> Been reading Ground Forces again?

Not recently, but I do own it.  Hope you enjoyed the fraction of a cup
of coffee:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Man, I'm glad that I'm not using [Microsoft Product].  This new
[virus/worm/trojan] exploits a [flaw/bug/backdoor] in [Microsoft
Product], and it [does/doesn't] use Outlook and the stupidity of users.
Luckily, I'm running [Free alternative to Microsoft product], so I'm not
at risk.  In fact, [Free alternative to Microsoft product] has protected
me from [any integer over 200] [viruses/worms/trojans].  And just look
at the [hundreds/thousands/millions/billions] of dollars that I've saved
using [Free alternative to Microsoft product].  I hope that this [Free
alternative to Microsoft product] takes off, along with [free
alternative to Microsoft OS].  Unfortunately, my [company/home] has to
pay for the stupidity of Microsoft: this [virus/worm/trojan] sucked
[250KB/250MB/250GB/250TB] of bandwidth!                  --cwcairns

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CCC@USCHM203>

Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 09:40:55
To: tml@travellercentral.com
>"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:

>It is a violation of the laws of land warfare to intentionally shoot to
>maim or injure an enemy combatant.  You are supposed to go for the kill.
>This mainly applies to snipers, who have been known to wound enemy soldiers
>as bait for rescue attempts.

Don't know if this is true or not, but supposedly it is also a violation to
use an M2 (the .50 caliber Heavy MG of a recent thread) to shoot at
individual combatants. It is only to be used for attacking vehicles and
equipment.
A friend of mine who served in the US 101st told me that an instructor at
Fort Campbell then went on to give examples of what could be considered
"equipment":

"Web gear, canteens, helmets, eyeglasses, magazines, entrenching tools...."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:03:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:03:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Acceptable losses
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CC8@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <000001c23985$cff0e5e0$6501a8c0@Darla>

AFAIK the major reason that the Union Army in the ACW tended to raise
new regiments instead of adding replacement to veteran ones was that
raising a new regiment allowed the governor of the state to commission a
regiment's worth of officers, up to and including a Colonel.  

TWB

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com [mailto:tml-
> admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Hurrel, Brian
> Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 11:31 AM
> To: 'tml@travellercentral.com'
> Subject: Re: [TML] Acceptable losses
> 
> >Flykiller wrote:
> 
> >I read somewhere that during the War Between the States the Northern
> armies
> 
> >would place new recruits in entirely new brigades, which made them
> >unreliable
> >at first, while the Southern armies would install their new recruits
in
> >established armies, which steadied their new recruits greatly.
> 
> Not exactly relevant, but mention of the Civil War reminded me of what
one
> of my South Carolinian friends told me:
> 
> "You know what the difference was between a rich Yankee and a rich
> Southerner? The rich Yankee paid someone to take his place in the
army,
> and
> the rich Southerner outfitted his own regiment."
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <200208011810.LVR04270@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Douglas E. Berry" says
>Hey!  They gave me a pysch eval before I was assigned to 
>sniper school! Evidently, I was just sociopathic enough for 
>their purposes...

I think I see a pattern here...

long time Traveller player...
joins the military (some of us wished we did)...
maybe even the Marines, (but Ft. Benning School For Boys is 
OK)
probably infantry...
could be Navy, though...
fiendish affection for small arms...
ends up as a writer (gasp!) or a programmer (have to pay the 
bills) or a lawyer!

It almost looks like we saw our initial career paths in the 
LBBs, and when we mustered out, we went and got "ordinary" 
jobs.

I bet that fighting hole full of cold rainwater I stepped 
into near LZ Aardvark was put there by Doug.  Thanks, Doug.

________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] juries
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEFAEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <3D497ADB.7010302@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Terry Carlino wrote:

> I've got to say that I have very little confidence in the present U.S. legal
> system. I don't mean in a political way. I just don't think that an
> adversarial system is all that good for determining guilt. Amateur juries
> seem to me to be ill equipped to handle many kinds of cases. They let people
> go when there is very solid scientifically based evidence, such as DNA,
> because they don't understand it. They find thieves innocent who steal using
> a ledger rather than a gun because they can't understand the complex
> accounting ruses used to strip value form companies and defraud. They
> release obviously guilty individuals because the defense attorney is a
> better speaker or looks better in his $1000 suit than the prosecutor does in
> her $140 Kmart suit, (or vice versa for public defenders and big city
> political DA's.)

I'll start by mentioning two maxims:

The plural of anecdote is not data.

What you see on TeeVee is not all real.

And if you've never served on a jury, and had to make those decisions, 
you do not know what it's like. To imply that a jury lets someone off 
because they have a defense lawyer in a slick suit, is wrong, and 
moreover, pure demagoguery.

More often than not, the reality is that the lawyer who can afford the 
slick suit is a good lawyer, with lots of resources to devote to the case.

As a whole, the jury system in the US does work pretty damned well.

The entire justice system suffers a bit, because if you have money you 
can afford good lawyers. If you're poor, you get someone overworked who 
will counsel you to plead out rather than take a case to trial, often no 
matter what the actual state of your guilt or innocence.

Yeah, OJ got off.

The truth is, contrary to popular belief, the average American is not as 
dumb as a post, the average jury isn't stupid or incapable of dealing 
with sophisticated evidence.

In the OJ case, the jury obviously bought the defense argument (at least 
to a state of reasonable doubt) that the handling of the evidence, and 
the bias of the investigating officers had been sufficiently tainting 
that they couldn't convict.

Juries are told very carefully what they are and they aren't allowed to 
consider during deliberations, and sometimes that doesn't all make 
sense, particularly to someone, *unlike the jury*, that has been swamped 
with media coverage and rampant punditry on the case.

In the Anderson case, it was clear that something wrong had been done. 
Proving it was entirely another matter, because what had probably been 
done was the destruction of the evidence needed to prove the wrongdoing.

It was not clear, *from the evidence*, that the *people* had done what 
the prosecutors said they did.

Note, in the Anderson case, shady accounting practices did not come into 
the decision at all, merely whether they had conspired to obstruct justice.

No criminal case over *shady accounting* has yet come out of the recent 
scandals. In previous trials, people who committed shady deals *have* 
been convicted: Millken, Keating, our ex-guv J. Thief Slimington. 
(though the latter two got off because of appeals and a friggin' 
presidential pardon, respectively)

But the very nature of the evidence in trials over accounting is 
slipperier than, say, a trial over stolen property.

It's easy to say whether someone did or did not have Mrs. Smiths TV and 
stereo in the back of their car, or that the property was recovered with 
their fingerprints on it.

It's a LOT harder to say whether Mrs. Smith's finance adviser showed bad 
judgement, bad luck or criminal intent in commiting her to ruinous 
transactions.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:18:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:18:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <200208011817.LVR05093@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Hurrel, Brian" says
>"Web gear, canteens, helmets, eyeglasses, magazines, 
>entrenching tools...."

Yes, you can shoot at anything that the enemy soldier has 
signed for.  Make sure you check his forms, and after you 
fire your rounds, have him sign for the ones that hit him.

There have been references to Imperial rules concerning 
warfare - are there really any in canon?  No use of nukes by 
non-Imperial forces?  Meson guns?  No genocide?  Eh?

The line from Apocalypse Now always made sense to me: 
arresting someone for violating the rules of war is like 
handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
In-Reply-To: <200208011810.LVR04270@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B96ECAA0.67370%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 11:10 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> I bet that fighting hole full of cold rainwater I stepped
> into near LZ Aardvark was put there by Doug.  Thanks, Doug.

The wonderful bond of shared experience (misery).  We can all sit down
together, drink beer, and share tales of the fine accommodations of Harmony
Church, the facilities at AO Eagle, the pleasures of Columbus Georgia.
Differentiated only by the uniform we wore, or the color of our boots and
whether we took the SQT or the POIQT.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:24:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:24:35 2002
Subject: [TML] juries
Message-ID: <200208011823.LVR05798@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Bruce Johnson says
<snip good comments about the intractability of determining 
accounting wrongdoing>

Hence the general populations unease with the concept of "no 
controlling authority".

Maybe the concept of men, not so much laws, is not a bad 
one.  Sure, we could say that on Regina, there's no specific 
law against writing your ledgers that way.  On the other 
hand, if news gets out, and there's enough related heat (such 
as massive corporate collapse), the Duke of Regina will be 
sending you a personal invitation to the prison hulk.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:25:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:25:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <200208011817.LVR05093@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020801182452.5599.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:
> 
> The line from Apocalypse Now always made sense to
> me: 
> arresting someone for violating the rules of war is
> like 
> handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500.

Which is what I've always thought about so called
"rules of war".  It makes about as much sense to have
rules when it comes to war as it does to have speed
limits at the Indy 500 (or Daytona us southerners).

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:33:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff D. Greenly)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:33:18 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <sd494643.049@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>

Larsen raises several excellent points. I thought I would chime in,
briefly, because I am of the opinion that Mr. Fly simply doesn't get it
despite what the true warrior types on the TML have been (very
patiently) explaining. TML hasn't been this interesting in a while!

One need only to look at the Battle of the Atlantic to see how much of
an effect esprit de corps and loyalty go towards men willingly going
into grave danger. I may be slightly off on my numbers, but the U-Boat
service saw the highest losses of ANY service branch, across all
nationalities during WW II. Something like 80% of all U-boatmen were KIA
towards the end of the war, with the average life expectancy being a
week. 

Funny how there were more volunteers than the service needed right up
to the end of the war, and there was never a single incidence of mutiny
(although there was ONE incident where a u-boat captain was executed for
cowardice in the face of the enemy. This was based on the testimony of
his crew and his own logs!) The crews KNEW things were rough.There were
a lot more u-boats missing than ones that came back to port, and of the
ones that did come back in, very few had any kills to their credit as
the war dragged on. They knew that the time of the Paukenschlag and the
Gray Wolves were over. But they went for Onkel Karl and they went for
glory, and they went because they were the cream of the crop and they
knew it, and they died in STAGGERING numbers. 

I think that a massed assault by fighters, assault shuttles or other
small craft in conjunction with light and medium ships of the line is a
perfectly viable and certainly historically proven means of depriving
the enemy of his capital ships. All it takes is one hit and you're
halfway there. Stop and think. A big ship, crewed by thousands and
costing hundreds of millions of credits can be taken out of action by a
force of craft costing a tenth and crewed by 1-3 men each. Combine that
fighter attack with coups d'grace administered by a number of cruisers,
destroyers, frigates and so on, and you have a very flexible multi-role
force for a lot less than a fleet full of big ships. There's a reason
the US Navy (as well as most other modern fleets!) is comprised the way
it is. Learn from it.

Jeff
OT3, USN

BTW, I think some of the best Navy chow to be had is at RTC Great
Lakes. You can have as much as you can get down in 5 minutes. I can't
remember tasting anything while I was there, but I got plenty! I also
seem to remember getting charged 6 bucks for 2 haircuts while I was
there, 3 bucks for my web belts and spats (one green belt, one white
belt, one pair white spats) and 85 bucks for my peacoat. I still have
the peacoat. I think I also had to buy a pair of running shoes for 10
bucks, and I only ran in them a few times, in the old blimp hangers. I
remember having to buy a plastic cigarette case, even though we couldn't
smoke. It apparently was for small valuables, but I never used mine. We
also had to buy our Bluejacket Manuals. I still have mine, proudly
sitting on my bookshelf at home. Funny to go back and look at it after
all these years....Ah, well.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Scott Kullberg)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <200208011817.LVR05093@vmms1.verisignmail.com> ("John T.
 Kwon"'s message of "Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:17:04 -0400")
References: <200208011817.LVR05093@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <m2d6t2juj5.fsf@attbi.com>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:

> There have been references to Imperial rules concerning 
> warfare - are there really any in canon?  No use of nukes by 
> non-Imperial forces?  Meson guns?  No genocide?  Eh?
>
> The line from Apocalypse Now always made sense to me: 
> arresting someone for violating the rules of war is like 
> handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500.

As I read the canon, the Imperial Rules of War don't apply to the
Imperium and its peers; they're for Imperial members. Fight clean, and
your little planets can have their little wars. Play dirty, and you'll
have IN dreadnoughts in low orbit and Imperial Marine assault shuttles
on your capital. It works because of the peculiar Traveller convention
that a powerful over-government exists but still allows what we would
call call "civil wars".

There might be 'rules' when the Imps fight the Zhos, but those are
really just customs and just as (un-)enforceable as what we've got now.


-- 
Scott E Kullberg  --><--  sekullbe@attbi.com
 "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands,
 hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -- H. L. Mencken

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <20020801182452.5599.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B96ECE97.67378%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 11:24 AM, Paul Walker at traveller_tv@yahoo.com wrote:

> 
> Which is what I've always thought about so called
> "rules of war".  It makes about as much sense to have
> rules when it comes to war as it does to have speed
> limits at the Indy 500 (or Daytona us southerners).

I'm not sure that this is the same thing, and frankly, war without rules
frightens me.  We get back to barbaric times.  Shooting prisoners of war out
of hand, killing noncombatants, using poison gas, biological warfare, etc.,
etc.

Ultimately, all of these things have a very real toll, particularly on the
combatants themselves. Unless we want to become barbarians ourselves, again.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <m2d6t2juj5.fsf@attbi.com>
Message-ID: <B96ECF6B.6737C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 11:36 AM, Scott Kullberg at sekullbe@attbi.com wrote:

> 
> As I read the canon, the Imperial Rules of War don't apply to the
> Imperium and its peers; they're for Imperial members. Fight clean, and
> your little planets can have their little wars. Play dirty, and you'll
> have IN dreadnoughts in low orbit and Imperial Marine assault shuttles
> on your capital. It works because of the peculiar Traveller convention
> that a powerful over-government exists but still allows what we would
> call call "civil wars".
> 
> There might be 'rules' when the Imps fight the Zhos, but those are
> really just customs and just as (un-)enforceable as what we've got now.
> 

Yeah.  The Imperium like to preserve nukes and such for itself, if for no
other reason that to keep member states from getting too big for their
britches.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:03:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:03:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <B96ECE97.67378%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020801190214.8933.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> traveller_tv@yahoo.com wrote:
> > 
> > Which is what I've always thought about so called
> > "rules of war".  It makes about as much sense to
> have
> > rules when it comes to war as it does to have
> speed
> > limits at the Indy 500 (or Daytona us
> southerners).
> 
> I'm not sure that this is the same thing, and
> frankly, war without rules
> frightens me.  We get back to barbaric times. 
> Shooting prisoners of war out
> of hand, killing noncombatants, using poison gas,
> biological warfare, etc.,
> etc.
> 
> Ultimately, all of these things have a very real
> toll, particularly on the
> combatants themselves. Unless we want to become
> barbarians ourselves, again.
> 

Tod,

Actually, I agree with you, but I don't think it is
accurate to call it "rules" any more than the courtesy
between drivers at Indy or Daytona can be called
"speed limits" or "rules" of driving.

We extend POW's and noncombatants a certain amount of
"courtesy" and expect the same from our enemies.  Our
culture (at least for now) calls for this courtesy to
be extended even if it is not returned.  A perfect
example is the war against the terrorist
organizations.  They have no problem killing prisoners
and noncombatants, and yet we still extend the
courtesies mentioned above to them.

Maybe it is pedantic, but calling them rules implies
some sort of implicit wrong in breaking them.  Rather
than a courtesy, something that, in some cases, should
indeed be broken.

So, I guess I misspoke.  I should have said that it
makes about as much sense to have traffic laws at Indy
or Daytona as it does to have "rules" when it comes to
war.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <20020801190214.8933.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B96ED62A.67384%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 12:02 PM, Paul Walker at traveller_tv@yahoo.com wrote:
> 
> So, I guess I misspoke.  I should have said that it
> makes about as much sense to have traffic laws at Indy
> or Daytona as it does to have "rules" when it comes to
> war.
> 

Ah, but there are 'traffic laws' at Indy.  Take, for example, the yellow
flag.  Also, you cannot run down people.  You cannot install machineguns in
your car, dump oil or smoke, etc.

The rules of war are more than just courtesy in that when our own people
break them, we punish them.  Certainly, they are broken.  But we don't say
'That's OK'.  We may say that it is understandable.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:30:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moreton)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:30:22 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <43.f41b3de.2a7a45aa@aol.com>
Message-ID: <026001c23992$31805e60$18130050@amoreton>



> >HMS Glow-worm ramming the Admiral Hipper comes to mind. The destroyer's
>  >mass
>  >was literally the only thing that might hurt the cruiser, and if she
wasn't
>  >hurt then the convoy would be massacred. Her skipper knew his ship would
>  >sink; he knew many (but probably not all) of his crew would die. But the
>  >decision was made in the face of the enemy, for a clear goal - to save
>  >hundreds of helpless merchant seamen. Would the crew have accepted an
>  >Admiralty policy of "we're not giving you torpedoes. You're to close and
>  >ram, then sink"? In desperate times, some people actually would. But,
say,
>  >in 1934? Nope.

Not to disagree with    the point of the comment but some details on the
loss of HMS Glowworm  was not escorting a convoy at the time of the battle
with the Hipper, she had been part of a minelaying sortie off the Norwegian
coast she became seperated from her consorts and came across on of the
Hipper's escrting destroyers. In the prevailing bad weather the Glowworm was
forced into close action with the Hipper, the Hipper attempted to run down
the Glowworm and then the Captain of the Glowworm  Lt Cmdr Gerald G Rooper
deceided to Ram the Hipper he succeeded adn the impact carried away 120 feet
of the hippers side plate and let in 528 tons of water , the Hipper carried
on with a 4 degree list and accomplished her mission. Many of the Glowworms
crew where saved by German vessels not including her captain who drowned
while being rescued , he was postumously awarded the VC.
You may perhaps be confusing the Glowworm with 2 British Armed Merchant
crusiers the Jarvis Bay as the lone escort of a convoy the Jarvis Bay a
converted liner with about 6 obsolete 6 inch guns when the convoy
encountered the Pocket Battleship Admiral Scheer heavily armoured and armed
with 6 11 inch guns . The Jarvis Bay charged the Admiral Scheer drawing the
Fire of the Scheer upon herself allowing the Convoy to scatter to safety
.her Captain E S F Fegan was awarded the VC posthumously.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:32:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:32:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <20020801182452.5599.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020801182452.5599.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <m38z3qs7e0.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:
> 
> Which is what I've always thought about so called "rules of war".
> It makes about as much sense to have rules when it comes to war as
> it does to have speed limits at the Indy 500 (or Daytona us
> southerners).

Not really.  The whole point of a race is to see who can go the
fastest.  But the point of war is _not_ to see who can commit the most
atrocities.  The exact point is a matter of some contention, but I
tend to figure that it has to do with taking and holding territory.
Since someone else is holding and defending it, men are going to die.
But there's no point in being cruel about it.  `If you must kill a
man, there's no harm in being polite to him.'  In much the same way,
if you're going to kill a man, shoot him cleanly; don't leave him
lying in his guts screaming for hours.  Don't gas him, so he doesn't
die but instead leads a long life of pain and misery.  Don't hunt down
and kill his wife and children.  Don't torture him if you capture
him.  In fact, if you capture him he's no longer a threat, so don't
kill him at all.

The rules of war are what prevent a horrendous thing from becoming
even worse.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I owe the government $3400 in taxes.  So I sent them two hammers and a
toilet seat.                                         --Michael McShane

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:35:04 2002
Subject: [TML] juries
In-Reply-To: <3D497ADB.7010302@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEFAEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
 <3D497ADB.7010302@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <m34rees79e.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:
> 
> The truth is, contrary to popular belief, the average American is
> not as dumb as a post, the average jury isn't stupid or incapable of
> dealing with sophisticated evidence.

No, but his IQ is 100, which isn't that much more impressive...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Reading maketh a full man; conference a ready man; and writing an exact
man.                                                            --Bacon

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:43:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:43:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <20020801190214.8933.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020801190214.8933.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <m3y9bqqsbp.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:
> 
> We extend POW's and noncombatants a certain amount of "courtesy" and
> expect the same from our enemies.  Our culture (at least for now)
> calls for this courtesy to be extended even if it is not returned.

IMHO civilian opinion that's foolish.  The deal should be play by our
rules or we play by none.  That is, we'll refrain from using NBC
weapons, we'll take prisoners, we'll treat them right, we'll avoid
hitting civilians for exactly so long as the other side does.  If they
don't, then we don't; instead we run up the black flag and fight
dirty.  It's not as though they'd retaliate by fighting dirty; they
already do.

Note that I am _not_ referring to any current actions, simply to a
theoretical stance.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
His troops would follow him anywhere, but only out of curiosity.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:46:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:46:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <m38z3qs7e0.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <B96EDDFB.6739E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 12:31 PM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> and kill his wife and children.  Don't torture him if you capture
> him.  In fact, if you capture him he's no longer a threat, so don't
> kill him at all.

More than that, if you treat your prisoners well, and the enemy knows it,
they may be more inclined to surrender.  Would the Iraqis have surrendered
in droves if we were shooting them out of hand and putting their heads on
poles?  I don't think so.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Chris Tann)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <20020801190006.19736.20169.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020801194721.65071.qmail@web14504.mail.yahoo.com>

The actual Apocalypse Now quote is 

"Shit...charging a
man with murder in this place was like handing out speeding
tickets in the Indy 500."

I also like 

"They  train young men to drop fire on people. But their commanders 
won't allow them to  write fuck on their airplanes because it's obscene! "


> on 8/1/02 11:24 AM, Paul Walker at traveller_tv@yahoo.com wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Which is what I've always thought about so called
> > "rules of war".  It makes about as much sense to have
> > rules when it comes to war as it does to have speed
> > limits at the Indy 500 (or Daytona us southerners).
> 
> I'm not sure that this is the same thing, and frankly, war without rules
> frightens me.  
> ...

=====
***********************************************************
Chris Tann                           Independent Consultant
chris@christann.com                       Walkabout Designs
phone (408) 205 6793               http://www.christann.com
***********************************************************

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:51:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:51:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <m3y9bqqsbp.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <B96EDF1B.6739F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 12:42 PM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> 
> IMHO civilian opinion that's foolish.  The deal should be play by our
> rules or we play by none.  That is, we'll refrain from using NBC
> weapons, we'll take prisoners, we'll treat them right, we'll avoid
> hitting civilians for exactly so long as the other side does.  If they
> don't, then we don't; instead we run up the black flag and fight
> dirty.  It's not as though they'd retaliate by fighting dirty; they
> already do.
> 
> Note that I am _not_ referring to any current actions, simply to a
> theoretical stance.

There are reasons for 'playing by civilized rules' other than to encourage
the enemy to do so.  We are a civilized people.  Our soldiers come from that
civilized society.  If we 'play dirty', we can cause great harm to our own
soldiers.  You cannot take a civilized person, send him off to do
unspeakable acts, and then expect him to come home and fit well into
civilized society.  You cannot even expect to maintain discipline.  You
cannot let the enemy dictate your behavior in war.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <B96ED62A.67384%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020801195839.54151.qmail@web20905.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> Ah, but there are 'traffic laws' at Indy.  Take, for
> example, the yellow
> flag.  Also, you cannot run down people.  You cannot
> install machineguns in
> your car, dump oil or smoke, etc.

Good point.  The analogy des fall apart after a bit. 
Mainly because there is (and should be) a governing
authority over the teams/participants in the Indy 500.

The obvious ObTrav here is the Imperial Rules of War.
(IIRC, they were set down in some part first in MT)
 
> The rules of war are more than just courtesy in that
> when our own people
> break them, we punish them.  Certainly, they are
> broken.  But we don't say
> 'That's OK'.  We may say that it is understandable.

I wasn't aware that we police ourselves.  If we do,
then I have no objections to the use of the terms
rules.  Rules, to me, implies that somewhere, somehow
there is someone to answer to if you break them.

I see your point, and if we police ourselves, then
certainly I agree.  Unfortunately, my military
experience outside of the TML is sparse indeed.

ObTrav:  Are there any "Rules" of war between the 3I
and Zho's?  On either side, and who enforces them?

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 14:01:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  1 13:01:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <200208012000.LVV03238@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>There are reasons for 'playing by civilized rules' other 
>than to encourage the enemy to do so.  We are a civilized 
>people.  Our soldiers come from that civilized society.  If 
>we 'play dirty', we can cause great harm to our own
>soldiers.  You cannot take a civilized person, send him off 
>to do unspeakable acts, and then expect him to come home and 
>fit well into civilized society.  You cannot even expect to 
>maintain discipline.  You cannot let the enemy dictate your 
>behavior in war.

While I would shoot, say, a fellow soldier who engaged in an 
atrocity such as rape or torture, it is my belief that our 
soldiers should be allowed to write whatever strikes their 
fancy on the sides on bombs.  If someone comes home and his 
only aftereffect from the "war" is spontaneous graffiti, 
that's ok by me.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 14:04:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff D. Greenly)
Date: Thu Aug  1 13:04:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
Message-ID: <sd495bcc.012@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>

Would a world that has 80% of its surface covered by water, a dense
nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, and one moon that is large enough to exert a
tidal effect tend to be more or less climatically active? Assume
moderate (terran-normal) vulcanism and a fairly non-polluting early TL
aqua/agricultural society. Also assume standard polar ice caps and
rotation around 20 deg. off the plane of the ecliptic. I'll welcome any
and all comments...

Jeff

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 14:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug  1 13:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <B96EDF1B.6739F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020801200953.4391.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> ruhl@4dv.net wrote:
> > 
> > IMHO civilian opinion that's foolish.  The deal
> should be play by our
> > rules or we play by none.  That is, we'll refrain
> from using NBC
> > weapons, we'll take prisoners, we'll treat them
> right, we'll avoid
> > hitting civilians for exactly so long as the other
> side does.  If they
> > don't, then we don't; instead we run up the black
> flag and fight
> > dirty.  It's not as though they'd retaliate by
> fighting dirty; they
> > already do.
> > 
> > Note that I am _not_ referring to any current
> actions, simply to a
> > theoretical stance.
> 
> There are reasons for 'playing by civilized rules'
> other than to encourage
> the enemy to do so.  We are a civilized people.  Our
> soldiers come from that
> civilized society.  If we 'play dirty', we can cause
> great harm to our own
> soldiers.  You cannot take a civilized person, send
> him off to do
> unspeakable acts, and then expect him to come home
> and fit well into
> civilized society.  You cannot even expect to
> maintain discipline.  You
> cannot let the enemy dictate your behavior in war.
> 

I think this is a difficult issue.  I can see both
sides.  I agree with Tod to a certain extent, but I
think at issue is the extent of the attrocities. 
Certainly the pilots that dropped the nuke's in Japan
weren't unable to maintain their discipline.  I do
think they fit into civilized society afterwards.  Yet
they perpetrated attrocities against civillians as
well as the enemy military.

You see, on the one hand, I don't think any of us
would agree that blanket killing of women and children
is acceptable regardless of who they are.  Yet, in
some cases, we did condone the use of nukes that
killed women and children.

But again, the climate of our country (even our world)
has changed since then.  I doubt there would have come
a time when there was condoned use of nukes against
Afganistan.  Maybe we would use them against Iraq. 
The biggest difference is what is necessary.  In WWII,
it was thought necessary to end the war quickly, hence
the use of nukes was condoned.  Now, despite our
President's use of the "Axis" term, there aren't any
enemies that rival THE Axis threat (at least not yet
anyway).


Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 14:15:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 13:15:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
Message-ID: <ba.29ce83ea.2a7af085@aol.com>

In a message dated 01/08/02 03:47:59 GMT Daylight Time, jrholmes@wi.rr.com 
writes:


Don't be so certain to dismiss Oliver Stone.  After all, he was the
person who wrote Conan the Barbarian for John Milius to direct.  While
a daren't minimize what Milius brought to the story in his direction,
Stone still did a fair job of the near impossible task of telling the
origin story plus telling a classic style adventure.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Stone's script isn't the one that was filmed. His was a far more ambitious 
project involving Conan descending into hell. I believe Milius retained 
chunks of dialogue but I'm not sure how much of Stone's work survived.

There's a good documentary on the Conan DVD but it's a while since I've seen 
it and my memory can be a bit shaky.

Charles

All of us a creatures of a day; the rememberer and the remembered alike

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 14:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 13:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <20020801195839.54151.qmail@web20905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B96EE599.67422%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 12:58 PM, Paul Walker at traveller_tv@yahoo.com wrote:
> 
> ObTrav:  Are there any "Rules" of war between the 3I
> and Zho's?  On either side, and who enforces them?
> 

Rules only in the sense of mutually agreed upon ones (treaties) which govern
the conduct of war.  Typically, these are mutually beneficial, such as those
rules governing the treatment of prisoners, noncombatant, etc.  That is not
to say that each side may have it's rules as well, for no other reason than
"we don't do that sort of thing in the Imperial Army".

I suspect that there is a treaty or at least a tacit understanding that one
does not nuke the other's planet into glass, at least where large civilian
populations are involved.  Possibly merely when a planet is readily
habitable.  Unrestrained nuclear war is bound to have very unpleasant and
lasting consequences.  And canon does not indicate a large number of
destroyed words along either the Zhodani or Solomani borders of the
Imperium.

Are there prisoner exchanges?  Probably.  These were a feature of the 18th
and 19th century European wars and this time period certainly influenced the
designer of our Olde Game.  Perhaps captured officers (or at least
gentlebeings) are even given their parole.

The whole model of interstellar war seems to be more based on the model of
the late 16th early 17th century, where only small parts of the
nation-states actively participated in the war, the majority of the
population went about their business and provinces and such were traded back
and forth.  The one notable exception seems to be the Solomani Rim war,
where ideology and the stability of the Imperium itself played a major
factor, and by all accounts, this was a very nasty war.  One that ended
without a formal armistice, but only an uneasy cessation of hostilities.

I expect that in the rim war, there were probably more atrocities,
particularly given the Solomani attitude about non-Solomani.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 14:20:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 13:20:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <200208012000.LVV03238@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B96EE5E2.67423%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 1:00 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> While I would shoot, say, a fellow soldier who engaged in an
> atrocity such as rape or torture, it is my belief that our
> soldiers should be allowed to write whatever strikes their
> fancy on the sides on bombs.  If someone comes home and his
> only aftereffect from the "war" is spontaneous graffiti,
> that's ok by me.

Agreed.  I didn't mean to suggest that this be taken to ridiculous extremes.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 14:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 13:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <20020801200953.4391.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B96EE955.67436%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 1:09 PM, Paul Walker at traveller_tv@yahoo.com wrote:

> 
> I think this is a difficult issue.  I can see both
> sides.  I agree with Tod to a certain extent, but I
> think at issue is the extent of the attrocities.
> Certainly the pilots that dropped the nuke's in Japan
> weren't unable to maintain their discipline.  I do
> think they fit into civilized society afterwards.  Yet
> they perpetrated attrocities against civillians as
> well as the enemy military.

I think this is a bad example (the Nuke bombing in WWII) since they had be
presaged by the mass bombing of cities with conventional bombs.  I
retrospect, many see mass bombings of civilians as atrocities, but to the
pilots of the B-29s over Hiroshi and Nagasaki dropping their nukes was just
another bombing raid, only with better bombs.

Personally, I don't see the bombing of Hiroshima an Nagasaki a any different
than the fire bombing of Dresden, or the random bombing of English cities by
the Germans.

Our sensibilities have changed.  Would mass bombing of Baghdad have been
acceptable to modern westerners?  Doubtful. Notice how the military went to
great pains to show that it was military targets that were being bombed.
WWII planners showed no such concern.  People like 'Bomber' Harris actively
defended the mass bombing of non-combatant civilians.
> 
> You see, on the one hand, I don't think any of us
> would agree that blanket killing of women and children
> is acceptable regardless of who they are.  Yet, in
> some cases, we did condone the use of nukes that
> killed women and children.

See above.  We condoned the mass killing of women and children with large
scale conventional bombs as well.
> 
> But again, the climate of our country (even our world)
> has changed since then.  I doubt there would have come
> a time when there was condoned use of nukes against
> Afganistan.  Maybe we would use them against Iraq.
> The biggest difference is what is necessary.  In WWII,
> it was thought necessary to end the war quickly, hence
> the use of nukes was condoned.  Now, despite our
> President's use of the "Axis" term, there aren't any
> enemies that rival THE Axis threat (at least not yet
> anyway).

I think it is more than just necessity.  It is a shrinking of our world, and
a change in attitude that says that even out enemies lives have a certain
value.  Ever watched a WWII Bugs Bunny cartoon.  The Germans, and
particularly the Japanese were horribly dehumanized.  We made our enemies
into monsters so then it was OK to exterminate them.

It's certainly not a new attitude. Look at Europeans attitudes of Africans
during the 19th century (white man's burden), or white Americans' vision of
blacks in our own country during the same period.

Nowadays, our sensibilities have change so dramatically that we worry about
whether we are mistreating animals.  During the gulf war there was even
concern about what impact military operations would have on the delicate
desert environment!
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 14:43:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Aug  1 13:43:22 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CDE@USCHM203>

"No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy."

I'm paraphrasing, and can't remember who said this. Maybe Clausewitz(SP?).

The way tactics and counter-tactics evolve, often on the fly, it seems that
in the "fighter swarm" case, you might get away with it once or twice, and
then capital ships would either add a swarm of escorts or a phalanx of point
defense weapons.
Traveller is a bit more static than our world when it comes to technology,
but military technology has been rapidly changing only for the last few
centuries. Earlier on there weren't many advances, but even though change
was slow, warfare has always evolved to meet each new "surefire tactic",
whether that change took a century or a month.
The point being, few "standard tactics", beyond "fix and flank", are going
to last long.
If I'm not mistaken, just about every armed force in WWII was constantly
evolving new tactics for new situations. 
Simply put:

Captain: Okay, this is how we did it yesterday, but this is what we're going
to do today.

The best example I can think of is the Normandy hedgerows. The US had
absolutely no plans whatsoever to take these formidable defensive positions
into account. They had simply been ignored in all planning.
Within weeks they had not only developed tactics to clear the hedgerows, but
had improvised existing equipment, jerry-rigged tanks with makeshift
"dozer-mount" hedgecutters, and directly implemented the new tactics in the
field.
No think-tanks. No research at the Aberdeen proving grounds. No statistics
and exhaustive analysis. They just thought it up and did it and it happened
to work.

As many of the posts have shown, there are so many variables in combat that
it is impossible to apply any neat categorization or standardization of
tactics. Warfare abounds with happy accidents, and what works today might be
disastrous tomorrow (and vice/versa).
I think Patton said(paraphrasing and probably naming the wrong source again)
"A mediocre plan executed immediately is better than a briliant plan
executed later."
Hit hard, hit first, and where they least expect it, and you can make up for
a lot of doctrinal weaknesses.
On the other hand, if you're talking about a set piece slugathon between
comarable forces, then it comes down to sheer mass, attrition, and whoever's
left when the dust clears.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 14:49:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 13:49:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <B96EE599.67422%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B96EE599.67422%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m3sn1yqp9b.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
>
> Perhaps captured officers (or at least gentlebeings) are even given
> their parole.

How exactly does this work?  Does one promise not to fight against
one's captor ever again, or simply for a time period, or until the end
of the current engagement, or until one has journeyed back home,
or...?  I've considered it pretty rotten that US soldiers are not
allowed to give their parole and get back home, but perhaps that's
just me.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I don't want to achieve immortality through my work.  I want to achieve
it by not dying.                                          --Woody Allen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 15:03:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 14:03:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <m3sn1yqp9b.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <B96EEFF4.6744B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 1:48 PM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> How exactly does this work?  Does one promise not to fight against
> one's captor ever again, or simply for a time period, or until the end
> of the current engagement, or until one has journeyed back home,
> or...?  I've considered it pretty rotten that US soldiers are not
> allowed to give their parole and get back home, but perhaps that's
> just me.

I'm not sure.  Naturally, it will depend on ones opponent.  Do the Joes have
a class with the same sense of honor as the Imperial aristocracy?  Perhaps
Imperial nobility and Zhodani adepts share some common standards of honor
and paroles are granted for the duration of hostilites.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 15:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Aug  1 14:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Character Conversions
Message-ID: <Springmail.0994.1028235993.0.26126500@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>

Paul Walker asked:
> 
> Has anyone ever come up with a good character
> conversion system?  I mean one that allows for
> conversion to CT, MT, TNE, T4, GT, and T20.
> 
> I know that some of these are very similar (MT
> & T4),
> but what about the others?

Some of the systems and skill sets are so different, I'm not sure if they can
all be consolidated. I've just finished converting a Zho generated from the CT
Zho supplement into GT and he's practically god-like (rolled incredibly well
back in '87 for psionics).

The GT conversion process, IMO, is overly generous to highly experienced
CT/TNE characters with upper-end stats.

Then again, I've played this guy through 5 long-term campaigns. Great for solo
runs but a bit overpowering with other, more youthful characters.

David Smart

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 15:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Thu Aug  1 14:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <3D480612.20345.F70592@localhost>
References: <3D46C8CE.8734.1C2B394@localhost> <3D480612.20345.F70592@localhost>
Message-ID: <02073117152800.00606@linux>

> That could be a bit tricky, considering that HG has no conversions for
> volume to mass. Using those from MT or FF&S seems a little pointless as
> they use different assumptions. The real difference would be that heavy
> armour would be less attractive, especially at lower TLs.

	Exactly.. which means that specialized ships ala battlecruisers (hms hood)
and fighter carriers could be viable and even cost effective. Given that 
there is never enough power or thrust....one must strike a balance to use 
what you have to be efficient. 
	I have to admit that I don't use high guard anymore (I am returning to 
gaming after a 15 year absence). I found a rule set I like with Bruce 
Macintosh's military combat system. I think it is better than hg 2nd ed. 
	Sorry if I came across as argumentive. With so many differrent rule sets
(ct/mt/tne/t4/gurps/t5/t20...etc.), I guess that the game of traveller is 
more a matter of background assumptions than a set of rules.And everybody has 
different ideas of how the universe should look and act.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 15:11:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Thu Aug  1 14:11:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
In-Reply-To: <20020801123223.5AA10451A@mo130uhou.palm.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0208011409330.15910-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>

On Thu, 1 Aug 2002, Mark Urbin wrote:

> Rob Davenport <rgd@infinet.com> wrote:
> >	Ed Wood's "Starship Troopers"
>
> Kenji Schwartz gave a good rant compairing ST to an Ed Wood movie.
> You can find it on my SciFi sig quote page.

Found it:

"IMHO, if we resurrected Ed Wood, and gave him the same budget to do Plan
9 From Outer Space as Verhoeven had to do Starship Troopers, I think we'd
have a contender on our hands. The eye candy would likely be just as good,
and the story about on a par." -- Kenji Schwarz on the Traveller Mailing
List.

I don't think he's that far off the mark.  :)

Rob




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 15:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu Aug  1 14:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <B96EE599.67422%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020801211106.5B7CE279A0@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/01/02 at 01:18 PM,  Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
said:

>on 8/1/02 12:58 PM, Paul Walker at traveller_tv@yahoo.com wrote: > 
>> ObTrav:  Are there any "Rules" of war between the 3I
>> and Zho's?  On either side, and who enforces them?
>> 

>Rules only in the sense of mutually agreed upon ones (treaties) which
>govern the conduct of war.  Typically, these are mutually beneficial,
>such as those rules governing the treatment of prisoners,
>noncombatant, etc.  That is not to say that each side may have it's
>rules as well, for no other reason than "we don't do that sort of
>thing in the Imperial Army".

IMTU...

The Imperium as set up "Rules of War" that apply to members of the
Imperium, and they enforce them, as they see fit, with Imperial
forces. Because the Imperium is ruled by men, not by laws, the Rules
of War are also whatever the men in charge say they are, but there are
a number of customary rules that the Gentlemen of the Imperium
generally subscribe to: No weapons of mass destruction (nukes,
biologicals, near-c rocks, etc), no genocide, limits on valid targets,
etc. 

When the Imperium deals with outsiders, all bets
are...potentially...off. However, the nobles of the Imperium are loath
to abandon their own rules even then, and generally won't unless the
other side does first. If, for example, an opponent doesn't engage in
slagged planet war against the Imperium, then neither does the
Imperium. Over time these conventions evolve into "unwritten rules"
between opponents, and as long as the cultures remain the same those
unwritten rules ("Dropping a rock on them just isn't cricket, old
boy!") will remain in effect.

What these unwritten rules are is up to you, but personally, I use
17th and 18th European rules concerning ransoms, hostages, pledges,
prisoner exchanges, not attacking non-combatants, fighting away from
civilian areas. and so on. Civilizated states abide by them,
barbarians don't.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 15:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Thu Aug  1 14:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <158.11a2925f.2a77b127@aol.com>
References: <158.11a2925f.2a77b127@aol.com>
Message-ID: <02073100275101.01008@linux>

On Tuesday 30 July 2002 05:06 am, you wrote:
> >This sounds like comparing apples and oranges........
>
> well yes, that was my whole point.  optimization can be had in the real
> (our) world, but in the traveller universe there's not much optimization to
> be had.
>
> >base acceleration and agility on displacement, NOT mass. Massive objects
> >(heavy-armor) will be slower and more sluggish unless equipped with
> >big-thrust engines, which means more fuel < more mass again > .
> > Optimization in this case counts.
>
> I completely agree.  but since traveller doesn't operate this way, now we
> are _really_ talking apples and oranges, and have changed the subject as
> well from traveller ship optimization to house rules.  in traveller, there
> are no optimization opportunities here.

	Then I humbly suggest that the rules for realistic thrusters ala 'hard 
times' or FF&S1 be followed in order for the Traveller universe to more 
closely mimic what we observe in the Real World tm. However I fully concede 
to you as long as ct or high guard is used.

> >Remember, military
> >spending is a hole that does not advance a world's economic growth, so it
> >must be kept to a minimum. Optimization Counts.
>
> ah yes, military spending.  but have you noticed that money is not at all
> the limiting factor in naval construction?  and even if it were, it's not
> the factor you make it out to be.  in the united states today, 250 million
> citizens contribute $300 billion or so annually in defense spending --
> that's $1200 from each man, woman, child, and illegal alien.  trillion
> credit squadron states that each imperial citizen contributes an average of
> 500Cr towards their navy -- I don't think that that is at all unreasonable,
> especially given that their military is primarily naval.  if anything it's
> too low, but it's still enough to allow the spinward marches to pay for
> about 2500 200kton battleships.  that's a lot of hardware, enough to put,
> what, ten battleships in each and every imperial spinward marches system. 
> what significant optimization can be had here?  there's some, but not much.

 hmmm... I must examine this .... after applying exchange rates and figuring 
the costs of support facilities, supplies and auxiliaries ( not to mention 
graft and 400$ hammers)

> >Also by using 'realistic'
> >thrust agents, fuel use becomes a major factor in fleet actions,
>
> as an aside, yeah, I suppose so.  but I subscribe completely to gary
> gygax's idea:  "More 'realistic' combat systems could certainly have been
> included here, but they have no real part in a game for a group of players
> having an exciting adventure."


Here is the schwerpunkt. Do people play traveller as a wargame...or do they 
play traveller as a RPG.?  How wonderful that there exists a game that can do 
both well.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 15:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Aug  1 14:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CE0@USCHM203>

"John T. Kwon" wrote:

>I think I see a pattern here...

>long time Traveller player...
>joins the military (some of us wished we did)...
>maybe even the Marines, (but Ft. Benning School For Boys is 
>OK)
>probably infantry...
>could be Navy, though...
>fiendish affection for small arms...
>ends up as a writer (gasp!) or a programmer (have to pay the 
>bills) or a lawyer!

>It almost looks like we saw our initial career paths in the 
>LBBs, and when we mustered out, we went and got "ordinary" 
>jobs.

LOL. It certainly crossed my mind. Oddly enough, I almost never played a
Marine character when I was younger. Had my heart set on West Point, but
didn't have the grades.

After "mustering out", I spent alot of time doing the usual PC thing,
hanging around in pubs looking for something exciting to do.

SPOILER ALERT
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Unfortunately, though I met many fascinating (and in some cases possibly
alien) characters, I was never asked to rescue a senator from an Imperial
prison hulk, reunite a Chirper with his siblings, discover a secret Zhodani
base, lead a trade mission to uncharted territory, investigate a
megacorporation, or run into "Grandfather". (actually, I think I might have
seen him after a particularly long bout of controlled substance indulgence
in New York --- might have just been a stone gargoyle on 3rd Avenue though).

The closest thing I ever did that could actually be considered "adventuring"
was driving a cab while in college. I'd rather be nosing around pyramids on
Yorbund than do THAT for a living again. Statistically, you'd be safer as an
Army Ranger.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 15:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Aug  1 14:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <sd494643.049@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
References: <sd494643.049@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
Message-ID: <20020802075436.A11303@freeman.little-possums.net>

Jeff D. Greenly wrote:
> I thought I would chime in, briefly, because I am of the opinion
> that Mr. Fly simply doesn't get it despite what the true warrior
> types on the TML have been (very patiently) explaining. TML hasn't
> been this interesting in a while!

In my estimation, the signal-to-noise ratio took an extreme dive since
Mr. Fly started posting :/


> I think that a massed assault by fighters, assault shuttles or other
> small craft in conjunction with light and medium ships of the line is a
> perfectly viable and certainly historically proven means of depriving
> the enemy of his capital ships.

I think I can sum up the counterargument: N3V3R H@PP3N!!1!

Besides, who is more suicidal in entering such a battle: the fighter
crew, some of whom will die in achieving victory; or the capital ship
crew, *all* of whom will die *pointlessly*?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <B96EEFF4.6744B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B96EEFF4.6744B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m3d6t2qlgr.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> 
> > How exactly does this work?  Does one promise not to fight against
> > one's captor ever again, or simply for a time period, or until the
> > end of the current engagement, or until one has journeyed back
> > home, or...?  I've considered it pretty rotten that US soldiers
> > are not allowed to give their parole and get back home, but
> > perhaps that's just me.
> 
> I'm not sure.  Naturally, it will depend on ones opponent.  Do the
> Joes have a class with the same sense of honor as the Imperial
> aristocracy?  Perhaps Imperial nobility and Zhodani adepts share
> some common standards of honor and paroles are granted for the
> duration of hostilites.

How did it work historically?  What forms of parole were granted?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
So Microsoft's invented the ASCII equivalent to ugly ink spots that
appear on your letter when your pen is malfunctioning.
        --Greg Andrews, about Microsoft's way to encode apostrophes

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Who Should Have Directed Starship Troopers?
References: <200208010008.LUH03387@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D49B311.B90AA08@mindspring.com>

"John T. Kwon" wrote:
> 
> Yes, I'm sure now it should have been John Waters.
> 
> And Divine should have played Sergeant Zim...
> ________________
> "I am Weasel!"
>
You're scaring me John.


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Why keep on enacting laws when we already have more than we can break.          
                             -Unknown

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:26:02 2002
Subject: Common TL (was Re: [TML] sword vs shotgun)
References: <6f.2b5bca38.2a79e68c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D49B516.D6ED825@mindspring.com>

GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Rupert Boleyn writes:
> 
> >Bear in mind that when CT was written anything over about TL12 was
> >pretty uncommon.
> 
> And should still be, frankly. One of MTs mistakes (laid firmly at the feet of
> DGP) was that suddenly everyone was using TL15 equipment, flying TL15
> starships, and eating TL15 food. And shopping at 'G'.
> 
> Now I realize that a number of the TL15 worlds are true powerhouses of
> production, but asking Glisten to keep half the Marches in gadgets is asking
> a bit much of the (already much abused) economic model...
> 
> GC
> 

Glisten keeps Glisten subsector and portions of the Trojan Reach sector in TL 15 gadgets. Soon they
will be keeping Forine/District 268 in TL 15 missiles ;p

-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Why keep on enacting laws when we already have more than we can break.          
                             -Unknown

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:27:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:27:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <memo.528804@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <m3d6t2qlgr.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
> How did it work historically?  What forms of parole were granted?

The whole thing worked on the principle of 'an officer and a gentleman' 
and the fact that honour was paramount and no gentleman would break his 
word.

Various levels of parole could be granted. An officer might give his 
parole not to escape, and be permitted to wander freely, but within 
bounds, around the place he was being held. He usually had to be back by 
nightfall, or a set time, and sleep in the premises provided. He might be 
limited to a castle, or to the surrounding village, or whatever. He might 
even be permitted to go horseback riding, perhaps with an escort.

Sometimes officers were permitted to return home, having given their 
parole not to bear arms against their captors. This might be conditional, 
in that once an officer of equivalent rank had been sent back the other 
way, he would be free to enter the fray again. Basically a prisoner 
exchange, only one would be allowed to go home in advance on the 
understanding that he wouldn't fight until the exchange had been 
completed.

It was always a personal matter, not one of policy. If you came home 'on 
parole' it was up to you to inform your superiors that you were not 
available to fight until the terms of your parole had been met.

There's a fine fictional example in one of the Hornblower novels. 
Hornblower, who'd been captured by the Spanish, had given his parole and 
was permitted to wander the village in which he was being held. One day he 
was on a nearby headland and spotted some fishermen in difficulties in 
stormy seas. He was allowed to take a boat out and rescue them, but 
conditions were such that the whole party were swept out to sea - where 
they were picked up by an English warship. The captain was all for 
welcoming him back with open arms (and locking up the French seamen), but 
Hornblower not only insisted that, as civilian fishermen, they should be 
let loose, he also demanded to go back too, so as to keep his given word 
not to attempt to escape from the village.

Other ranks (enlisted personnel), not being 'gentlemen,' could not give 
parole, so just got locked up!

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20020731221815.00a378c0@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <3D49B623.C79BF0B5@mindspring.com>

Hal wrote:
> 
> Another thing to consider?
> 
> When you are in a war against an enemy you and your compatriots HATE with a
> consuming passion - you may find that the problem isn't in getting your
> fighter crews to go out against your enemy - but in keeping them from being
> TOO aggressive.
> 
> One other thing that is often overlooked here when it comes to psychology
> of war?  Being in a fighter platform instead of a ship's laser power plant
> generator room - permits the fighter pilot to feel that his actions *DO*
> count in the battle.
> 
> A final comment on this before I have to go to work:
> 
> If you have a large enough pool of pilots for use in the battles ahead, and
> it has become naval doctrine to use fighters in a swarm mode - naval
> trainers will be indoctrinating their fighter pilots to accept the fact
> that 100 fighters lives in exchange for 1,000 enemy lives is a fair
> trade.  It takes months to build a hull of note.  It takes weeks to build a
> fighter platform.  There are More Class B starports able to churn out
> fighters than there are class A starports churning out capital ships.  I
> really think someone should take the time and effort to build up a
> "fictional" sector for use in a massive campaign over the net...  Hmmmm -
> HIGH GUARD and TCS rules anyone? ;)
> 
>               Hal
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Why fictional? How about the FFW encompassing all of the marches. 
-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Why keep on enacting laws when we already have more than we can break.          
                             -Unknown

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <20020801182128.9068d26d087748de93de63949d36b6f5.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>One need only to look at the Battle of the Atlantic to see how much of
>an effect esprit de corps and loyalty go towards men willingly going
>into grave danger. I may be slightly off on my numbers, but the U-Boat
>service saw the highest losses of ANY service branch, across all
>nationalities during WW II. Something like 80% of all U-boatmen were KIA
>towards the end of the war, with the average life expectancy being a
>week. 

Toward the end, yes.  But remember, the life expectancy was changing
constantly through-out the war.  An aggressive U-Boat skipper would almost
assuredly die on his first patrol in 1945 while a similar man in 1940 would
have racked-up patrols and kills for close to a year without much risk.

>Funny how there were more volunteers than the service needed right up
>to the end of the war, and there was never a single incidence of mutiny
>(although there was ONE incident where a u-boat captain was executed for
>cowardice in the face of the enemy. This was based on the testimony of
>his crew and his own logs!) The crews KNEW things were rough.There were
>a lot more u-boats missing than ones that came back to port, and of the
>ones that did come back in, very few had any kills to their credit as
>the war dragged on. They knew that the time of the Paukenschlag and the
>Gray Wolves were over. But they went for Onkel Karl and they went for
>glory, and they went because they were the cream of the crop and they
>knew it, and they died in STAGGERING numbers. 

I think you are overestimating how much the crewmembers knew at the time.  A
lot of U-Boats would be missing from the subpens at Brest or Lorient when a
sub got back, but that could be explain by saying the ships were on patrol.
They probably did know a lot more about losses then Allied submariners,
because the U-Boats were too chatty on the radios for their own good (A
fatal weakness for Karl Donitz's force even without Ultra.  At least one
U-Boat was sunk within an hour of radioing in to U-Boat HQ, after being
detected by radio direction finders.  The ironic part of the saga was the
sub's message.).

Also, officers for the U-Boat fleet often were not volunteers, or were not
given the chance to - Officers of the Kriegsmarine were EXPECTED to go to
whatever duty station they were assigned without comment.  When Martin
Middlebrook interviewed some veterans for his book _Convoy_, the U-Boat
officers often were surprised at the question of volunteering.  Some of the
crewmembers of the U-Boats also seemed to have "volunteered" under less then
voluntary circumstances

>I think that a massed assault by fighters, assault shuttles or other
>small craft in conjunction with light and medium ships of the line is a
>perfectly viable and certainly historically proven means of depriving
>the enemy of his capital ships. All it takes is one hit and you're
>halfway there. Stop and think. A big ship, crewed by thousands and
>costing hundreds of millions of credits can be taken out of action by a
>force of craft costing a tenth and crewed by 1-3 men each. Combine that
>fighter attack with coups d'grace administered by a number of cruisers,
>destroyers, frigates and so on, and you have a very flexible multi-role
>force for a lot less than a fleet full of big ships. There's a reason
>the US Navy (as well as most other modern fleets!) is comprised the way
>it is. Learn from it.

"Most"?  I would be careful about that.

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

 My Sale List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
 My Want List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:31:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:31:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <20020801182132.8dc5803e76f94f1f98d7b72b3352174c.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>> >The USN's Devastators had been in service ~7 years and was an 
>> obselescent 
>> >design too, although not as bad as the Swordfish(1).
>> 
>> The Swordfish was not bad....And for the role it was intended, it was
>> probably better then the TBD!  Which is a sad commentary on US naval
>> aviation more then anything else.
>
>OTOH, the Stringbag was never sent into battle against carrier-based 
>fighters.  The TBD pilots at Midway, meanwhile, had to try to survive 
>without fighter cover against the A6M Zero.  Hardly a fair contest (of 
>course, any military leader who tries to fight war _fairly_ isn't doing 
>the job correctly).

True.  The Japanese pilots would have still mopped the floor with any
torpedo bombers.  Then again, the Stringbag did not have to serve in the
Pacific.  Good thing too, since the Japanese managed to massacre the torpedo
bombers the British DID have in the early days of the Pacific War
(Wildebeasts, IIRC.).

FYI, the Brewster Buffalo has such a bad reputation because of its poor
combat performance against the Japanese.  Yet we are talking about the same
fighter that managed to beat the Grummen Wildcat in the US Navy's
competition for a carrier fighter just before World War 2.  If Brewster had
not proven so inept in actually building and upgrading the fighter, then we
would be seeing Buffalos tangling with Zeros at Midway....

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

 My Sale List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
 My Want List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <76.201d4ff6.2a7b1285@aol.com>

 >>  >They might want more choices besides Dreadnaughts.
 >>
 >> Show me your choices.  I'd love to see 'em.
 >
 >Low-end ships so you can do all your jobs within your budget maybe?

I understand that, but there's the question of what your enemy is doing.  
Consider the extreams -- if your goal is to win engagements then you'll want 
a few expensive capital ships, but if you want to "do all the jobs" then 
you'll want a herd of warm bodies (as it were).  Between the extreams is the 
balance -- but where is it?  I think it's way over in the "win engagements" 
side.  If you "cover all the bases" with warm bodies but have to flee every 
time the heavyweight enemy shows up then what good is that?  There is no 
substitute for victory, and to get that victory you need the heavyweights and 
you need more of them than your enemy.

 >Patrol ships and tankers and whatever you plan to escort the talkers with.

If by patrol you mean scouts, then yes.  But if you mean general policing 
then I'd think that would be a local police matter and not a fleet matter.  
If I'm an admiral at Jewell looking at 1000 Zhodie capital ship in Cronor, 
and I hear about some pirates at Enope, I'd have to set priorities and ask 
Wochiers to deal with it.  Since imminent war is not a constant threat, if 
some patrols were desperately needed by local governments then I'd send some 
screening vessels to deal with the problem and then return.

As for tankers (?), if I had any I'd just keep them with the fleet.

>The USN,
>for example, has other ships than carriers or attack subs (whichever you
>consider to be the capital ship). Most navies have some high-end combat
>ships and low-end workhorses.

That's because of real-world issues regarding weapon load capacities, size vs 
speed, air / surface / sub environment requirements, hull-shape requirements, 
and dozens of other factors, make such specialization necessary and 
effective.  These issues don't transfer well to a Traveller universe.  In 
Traveller everyone can go just as fast as the next guy, they all can carry 
the same weapons, there's no limitation on size or hull configuration, and so 
on.  Would you put an Ageis system on a cargo ship?  You can do it in 
Traveller, and it works.  Would you put ten inch armor on a destroyer?  You 
can do it in Traveller, and it works.  Effective combat ships will all tend 
towards the same hull/weapons/defenses configuration, and specialization will 
become mere limitation.

My Spinward Marches Colonial Fleet has supply vessels, hospital ships, 
minesweepers, and other stuff in addition to its capital vessels.  But they 
are all sideshows, and minor elements of the fleet -- maybe 5% of the total 
tonnage.  I intend to win the major engagements first -- I'll clean up any 
leftover messes after I win.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <bf.241eecb7.2a7a4368@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D49BA6B.37759812@mindspring.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> 
>  >>asking hundreds of them at a time to give up their lives all
>  >>at once, just to make a tactic work, in one segment of a
>  >>single battle, is not an insignificant outlay for THEM.
>  >>(push button) "go do this, guys."  (lights
>  >>flash) "ok."  it doesn't work that way.
>  >
>  >See the battle of Midway.  The low level torpedo attack
>  >planes that sacrificed themselves to Japanese anti-aircraft
>  >fire so that the dive bombers would have a chance.
> 
> Yes, with a huge Japanese fleet threatening their homeland and only them
> standing between the yellow peril and their families.  It was not, however, a
> standard tactic, employed "because they'll tolerate it".

Read Miracle at Midway a few years back. IIRC the torpedo planes were the ones EXPECTED to take out
the jap ships. But communication, navigation and planning errors resulted in the attacks being
uncoordinated and the TBY's? wound up being slaughtered by the jap CAP and the ships. When the dive
bombers showed up there were no planes in a position to oppose their attack.


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Why keep on enacting laws when we already have more than we can break.          
                             -Unknown

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMEKKCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com>
>
>yes!  Yes!  YESSSS!!!!!
>
>I have arrived.  I have my first keyboard kill.  And
>from Glenn, too, an honored old timer and regular.
>
>I think I'll print it out on paper suitable for framing.

Don't get cocky, kid.  We'll teach ya the secret handshake and stuff at
BayCon or if ya come down ta San Jose on a game day.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:55:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:55:33 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Acceptable losses
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEKKCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
>
>No, you don't understand.  Every unit must have a Texan (known as
>Tex), a Brooklyner, a racist Southerner, an effete intellectual, a Jew
>and half-a-dozen Midwesterners.  At least, acc. to the war movies:-)

The war movies, of course, took that demography from Norman Mailer's The
Naked and the Dead.  (The man who recommended it to me was a decorated NCO
veteran of the Pacific campaign, and he said that it was very true to his
experience.  It is indeed a great book.)

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:56:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:56:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  juries
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Flykiller@aol.com

someone wrote:
>Amateur juries
>seem to me to be ill equipped to handle many kinds of cases.

Flykiller@aol.com replied:
>True.  And irrelevant to why they exist.  Juries aren't meant to be
>professional, quite the opposite.  Juries are meant to be a last and final
>check and balance against governmental power over individual citizens.  The
>government can't put anyone in jail unless they can get a bunch of amateur
>citizens to agree.  It's preferable to the alternative.

If you can't explain your case so that twelve ordinary people understand it,
then you don't understand your case adequately.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:56:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:56:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
>
>Sure, not now: a video game, even a military simulator, is simply not
>possible of fully-simulating flight, combat &c.  But thousands of
>years in the future that's not an issue.  If you can damp inertia and
>fake gravity, you can fake the motions and sensations of combat.  If
>you can broadcast in 3D, you can generate a photo-realistic world
>outside the phony cockpit windows.  The only thing you _cannot_
>simulate is the fear of death--and real military training cannot AFAIK
>do that either; only actual flight time can do that.

"I'm sorry, but it appears that Cadet Uhl was killed by the simulator.  In
the simulation, he accelerated his fighter to very high speed, then crashed
it into the drives of an enemy battleship.  The simulation ran its gravitics
to simulate the crash and increased the temperature to simulate the fire
when his L-Hyd tanks exploded.  The combination of being crushed and burned
caused injuries that we were unable treat effectively.  Next!"

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:57:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:57:06 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Acceptable losses
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>
>
>"You know what the difference was between a rich Yankee and a rich
>Southerner? The rich Yankee paid someone to take his place in the army, and
>the rich Southerner outfitted his own regiment."

"An Aramisian doesn't mind if the Vargr live close, as long as they don't
get uppity.  A Reginan doesn't mind if the Vargr get uppity, as long as they
don't live close."

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:58:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:58:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
>There have been references to Imperial rules concerning
>warfare - are there really any in canon?  No use of nukes by
>non-Imperial forces?  Meson guns?  No genocide?  Eh?

Striker and, I think, MegaTraveller Imperial Encyclopedia, state the
Imperial rules of war.  Here's my view of them.

1.  These "rules" are not a code for combatants.  They are guidelines to aid
local Imperial officials in exercising their discretion about whether to
intervene in a conflict or not.  They are not written down, and they don't
bind anybody.

2.  These rules only apply to situations in which all combatants are
Imperial citizens, or in the employ of Imperial citizens.

3.  The Imperium may choose to intervene if nuclear weapons are in the
possession or use of either side.  Query whether californium or uranium
rounds count as "nuclear" weapons.  Other weapons of mass destruction may
trigger Imperial intervention.

4.  The Imperium may choose to intervene if there is unreasonable off-world
influence in a matter involving a single member state.

5.  War involving space and star craft is permitted, as long as interstellar
commerce is not unduly affected.

"Unduly," "unreasonable," "choose" -- this are only guidelines for Imperial
officials to consider in exercising their discretion.  The rules of war will
not support any sort of legal action (war being, after all, the opposite of
law).

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 17:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug  1 16:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <bf.241eecb7.2a7a4368@aol.com> <3D49BA6B.37759812@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <001801c239b1$63165dc0$cb16bd50@martinjd>

>
> Read Miracle at Midway a few years back. IIRC the torpedo planes were the
ones EXPECTED to take out
> the jap ships. But communication, navigation and planning errors resulted
in the attacks being
> uncoordinated and the TBY's? wound up being slaughtered by the jap CAP and
the ships. When the dive
> bombers showed up there were no planes in a position to oppose their
attack.

That's pretty much what I thought/said...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 17:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Thu Aug  1 16:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
In-Reply-To: <sd495bcc.012@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020801180714.00a7fc80@minn.net>

"Jeff D. Greenly" <jgreenly@hsc.wvu.edu> wrote:
>Would a world that has 80% of its surface covered by water, a dense
>nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, and one moon that is large enough to exert a
>tidal effect tend to be more or less climatically active? Assume
>moderate (terran-normal) vulcanism and a fairly non-polluting early TL
>aqua/agricultural society. Also assume standard polar ice caps and
>rotation around 20 deg. off the plane of the ecliptic. I'll welcome any
>and all comments...

Jeff, I think you may be spending a little too much time at the keyboard.

Go outside, take a walk, relax. Enjoy the weather. ;-)


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
"Do you know how fast you were going on that pogo stick?"
"From now on, everyone in Wisconsin will be named Wally."
				-- Colin Mockerie
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 17:09:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  1 16:09:22 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <200208012308.LWB03316@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>Besides, who is more suicidal in entering such a battle: the 
>fighter crew, some of whom will die in achieving victory; or 
>the capital ship crew, *all* of whom will die *pointlessly*?

Regardless of the ship types, small or large, space combat 
has to be fairly lethal to the crew - if we take the Crew-1 
at its basic form.

If Side A wins the battle, does this mean they attempt to 
salvage some Side B ships?  Is there a nuclear scuttle option 
for capital ships to prevent enemy use?  Or would Side A 
plant nuclear demolition charges on the wrecks of Side B to 
ensure that damaged ships are not recovered?
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 17:20:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug  1 16:20:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <76.201d4ff6.2a7b1285@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c239b3$7174bb80$cb16bd50@martinjd>

>  >Low-end ships so you can do all your jobs within your budget maybe?
>
> I understand that, but there's the question of what your enemy is doing.
> Consider the extreams -- if your goal is to win engagements then you'll
want
> a few expensive capital ships, but if you want to "do all the jobs" then
> you'll want a herd of warm bodies (as it were).  Between the extreams is
the
> balance -- but where is it?  I think it's way over in the "win
engagements"
> side.

Engagemnents of what sort? Enough commerce raiders can cripple your economy
(Battle of the Atlantic etc) despite your excellent battle fleet. If the
engagements you need to win are escort/raider ones, then you need many ships
to cover the area, but ones good enough to beat or deter the raiders.

> If you "cover all the bases" with warm bodies but have to flee every
> time the heavyweight enemy shows up then what good is that?  There is no
> substitute for victory, and to get that victory you need the heavyweights
and
> you need more of them than your enemy.

You need greater concentration of force at the critical point. That can be
done with less ships, better handled and supported.

That said, victory is not necessarily gained by defeating the enemy battle
fleet. If you do that, but he scrubs your industrial worlds with planetary
raider ships, or kills your economy with commerce raiders, then you may not
have won at all.


>
>  >Patrol ships and tankers and whatever you plan to escort the talkers
with.
>
> If by patrol you mean scouts, then yes.  But if you mean general policing
> then I'd think that would be a local police matter and not a fleet matter.

I mean patrol ships to defeat piracy, commerce raiding and smuggling, to
catch enemy intelligence ships and recon vessels, to prevent the stockpiling
of forward supply bases, to gain intelligence, to show the flag and keep
systems in line....

> If I'm an admiral at Jewell looking at 1000 Zhodie capital ship in Cronor,
> and I hear about some pirates at Enope, I'd have to set priorities and ask
> Wochiers to deal with it.  Since imminent war is not a constant threat, if
> some patrols were desperately needed by local governments then I'd send
some
> screening vessels to deal with the problem and then return.

My point is that a fleet needs more than capital ships. You have to HAVE the
anti-pirate ships to be able to do your job.

>
> As for tankers (?), if I had any I'd just keep them with the fleet.

Tankers and logistics ships. They need to move around to be useful; they
have to be replenished and returned to the fleet. Just keeping the fleet in
missiles is a huge undertaking. Logistics vessels, by definition, have to
move around to be any use. But my point, again, was that you have to have
some.

>
> >The USN,
> >for example, has other ships than carriers or attack subs (whichever you
> >consider to be the capital ship). Most navies have some high-end combat
> >ships and low-end workhorses.
>
> That's because of real-world issues regarding weapon load capacities, size
vs
> speed, air / surface / sub environment requirements, hull-shape
requirements,
> and dozens of other factors, make such specialization necessary and
> effective.  These issues don't transfer well to a Traveller universe.  In
> Traveller everyone can go just as fast as the next guy, they all can carry
> the same weapons, there's no limitation on size or hull configuration, and
so
> on.  Would you put an Ageis system on a cargo ship?  You can do it in
> Traveller, and it works.  Would you put ten inch armor on a destroyer?
You
> can do it in Traveller, and it works.  Effective combat ships will all
tend
> towards the same hull/weapons/defenses configuration, and specialization
will
> become mere limitation.

Specialization allows you to afford more ships optimized to a certain role.
You need X patrol ships, Y cruisers, etc. To fulful your low-level
requirements and your fleet screening duties. To be couriers and recon
vessels... by making some of them low-end ships for low-risk misisons, you
have more money available for enough capital ships to do their job.

>
> My Spinward Marches Colonial Fleet has supply vessels, hospital ships,
> minesweepers, and other stuff in addition to its capital vessels.  But
they
> are all sideshows, and minor elements of the fleet -- maybe 5% of the
total
> tonnage.  I intend to win the major engagements first -- I'll clean up any
> leftover messes after I win.

Where will you fight these engagements? How will you make sure you have the
choice of where and when to meet the enemy fleet? What happens if he feints
and threatens with the battle fleet in being and floods your systems with
commerce raiders to break up your logistics chain?





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 17:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Thu Aug  1 16:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <20020801232333.17172.qmail@web11308.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
This tactic is presented not as a desperation move,
but an ordinary one to be implemented if said navy can
put up with it.  To which I responded that 
no fighter pilot community would tolerate it.  Even if
the attacking squadron is originally 1000, after two
capital ships they'll be combat ineffective 
using this tactic, and there will be NO volunteers to
replace them until the tactic 
is discarded.
END QUOTE

But wouldn't more people die if it was cap ship vs.
cap ship?

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://digital.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Digital How To
- Get the best out of your PC!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 17:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  1 16:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <200208012327.LWC00112@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"MJ Dougherty" says
>Where will you fight these engagements? How will you make 
>sure you have the choice of where and when to meet the enemy 
>fleet? What happens if he feints and threatens with the 
>battle fleet in being and floods your systems with
>commerce raiders to break up your logistics chain?

As I believe was mentioned before, those little fighters make 
excellent raiders - You could probably build fairly small, 
fairly cheap ones that would, especially in numbers, lay 
waste to the typical merchant ships.  The ship that carried 
them might not be very large, and could remain far outsystem.

Let me think about this for a while...
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 17:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug  1 16:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <43.f41b3de.2a7a45aa@aol.com> <026001c23992$31805e60$18130050@amoreton>
Message-ID: <007001c239b5$5c29c3e0$cb16bd50@martinjd>

>
>
>
> > >HMS Glow-worm ramming the Admiral Hipper comes to mind. The destroyer's
> >  >mass
> >  >was literally the only thing that might hurt the cruiser, and if she
> wasn't
> >  >hurt then the convoy would be massacred. Her skipper knew his ship
would
> >  >sink; he knew many (but probably not all) of his crew would die. But
the
> >  >decision was made in the face of the enemy, for a clear goal - to save
> >  >hundreds of helpless merchant seamen. Would the crew have accepted an
> >  >Admiralty policy of "we're not giving you torpedoes. You're to close
and
> >  >ram, then sink"? In desperate times, some people actually would. But,
> say,
> >  >in 1934? Nope.
>
> Not to disagree with    the point of the comment but some details on the
> loss of HMS Glowworm  was not escorting a convoy at the time of the battle
> with the Hipper, she had been part of a minelaying sortie off the
Norwegian
> coast she became seperated from her consorts and came across on of the
> Hipper's escrting destroyers. In the prevailing bad weather the Glowworm
was
> forced into close action with the Hipper, the Hipper attempted to run down
> the Glowworm and then the Captain of the Glowworm  Lt Cmdr Gerald G Rooper
> deceided to Ram the Hipper he succeeded adn the impact carried away 120
feet
> of the hippers side plate and let in 528 tons of water , the Hipper
carried
> on with a 4 degree list and accomplished her mission. Many of the
Glowworms
> crew where saved by German vessels not including her captain who drowned
> while being rescued , he was postumously awarded the VC.

OOps. I stand corrected. I was confusing the incident with Sherbrooke's
action vs German cruisers.

> You may perhaps be confusing the Glowworm with 2 British Armed Merchant
> crusiers the Jarvis Bay as the lone escort of a convoy the Jarvis Bay a
> converted liner with about 6 obsolete 6 inch guns when the convoy
> encountered the Pocket Battleship Admiral Scheer heavily armoured and
armed
> with 6 11 inch guns . The Jarvis Bay charged the Admiral Scheer drawing
the
> Fire of the Scheer upon herself allowing the Convoy to scatter to safety
> .her Captain E S F Fegan was awarded the VC posthumously.

I wasn't confusing with the Jervis Bay incident, thanks for pointiong it
out - it stands as another example.

>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 17:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug  1 16:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <e6.2be0ca41.2a7a3051@aol.com> <m3ptx2twnf.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <00ca01c239b8$93015920$cb16bd50@martinjd>

> >
These fighters, BTW.

How are they getting to the battle area? By carrier?

I wonder if I can survive long enough to fly through your fighter screen and
kill the carrier with my meson guns/particle accelerators etc. If I kill
enough carriers, your fighters also die.

Or perhaps I can disrupt your chain of supply enough that you can't replace
the fighters you've lost, or the missiles they expend. Maybe I can avoid
contact until your fighters have to return to base, or until they've thinned
out enough by needing to rotate on station that I can slaughter them. (A
capital ship can remain at combat readiness for a LOT longer than a 2-man
fighter, and doesn't degrade as much over time).

Maybe my escorts and fighter screen can keep my capital ships unscrubbed
while I punch through to kill your carriers and support ships.

We seem to be assuming a straight fight between equal tonnages of fighters
and capital ships, both ready and willing to go. Like when does that sort of
thing happen?

We need also consider mobility, duration of readiness, concentration of
force...etc. If, instead of a "stand-up fight" we consider a longer-term,
wider-area situation - even just the "war-fighting" aspect - then I believe
that a fighter force cannot deliver what the war-fighters need.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:01:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:01:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Energy Blade and Meditation
Message-ID: <3D49CB95.D906C0CF@ameritech.net>

> Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 10:09:06 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Chris Tann <chris_tann@yahoo.com>
>
> Hi all,
>
> I rolled up a character for MT using TravGen Character generation,
> and picked two skills I can't find details on in MT or CT. Can
> someone please let me know what version of Trav they're in? If
> you could also send me a description, that would be great, and
> I'll see if I can convinve my referee to use them...
>
> Meditation
> Energy Blade
>
> I guess Energy Blade relates to a weapon, so details on that
> would be useful too.

These look like a homebrew attempt to use Traveller for a more Star
Warsey kind of game. Perhaps the author of the software in question
knows where they came from.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:02:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:02:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
References: <F137of0aYhHnKZ1nSIz0000ee76@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <00d301c239b9$457629a0$cb16bd50@martinjd>

Because, the airstrikes were cheaper

** And also, perhaps, because the airstikes were first. They could have a go
NOW. If they failed, there was a backup. But waitng for the battle line
might have let the Yamato slip through their fingers - bad weather, faulty
recon, whatever. Or some other crisis (hard to imagine what, but...) might
have drawn the battle line away.

To misquote from the Patton threat - better to do something NOW than
something better LATER


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Hamill)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #847 - 24 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20020731210410.11007.92126.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020802000733.27197.qmail@web21509.mail.yahoo.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

"Message: 8
From: Flykiller@aol.com
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 15:52:03 EDT
Subject: [TML] Acceptable losses
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

 >> 750 / what, 6 years? = 125 per year, about one
every three days.  
hardly
 >> the same as several hundred in one segment of one
line battle in 
one day.
 >
 >What about the whole "over the top" attitude of WWI?
Pouring 
thousands of 
 >lives into suicidal charges for far less gain than
trading a few 
hundred 
 >pilots for a capitol ship? And this was not a
desparation tactic, but 
was 
the 
 >"standard" tactic of the day. Sure I imagine that
the commanders on 
either 
 >side underestimated the potential loss of life, but
several hundred 
lives 
in 
 >one segment of one battle in one day is not as
perposterous as it 
sounds, 
 >when you compare it to infantry losses. How many
marines did the U.S. 
pour 
 >into islands like Iwo Jima and Okinawa in WWII? And
the U.S. was more 
or 
less 
 >winning the war at that stage.

Now that's a good answer and worthy of a good
response.  Let's see how 
well I 
do.

Leading up to WW1 and contributing to it was a vast
and actively 
advanced 
cultural attitude of "God, king and country".  War was
taught as being 
a 
noble and natural thing, and the ancient Greek
attitude of "It is good 
to die 
for one's country" was widely believed.  The concept
of evolution had 
been 
recently introduced, and the idea of competition
between nations and 
peoples 
was very popular.  England was defending its
established empire (on 
which the 
sun never set, a tremendous source of English pride),
Germany was 
determined 
to  expand and find its place in the sun and prove
themselves to the 
world, 
and the French as always felt they were just too
superior to lose.  
National 
pride everywhere was at its peak, and everyone was
ready.  The 
conditions for 
war were as perfect as they will ever be without
scientific 
brainwashing.  
When it came huge numbers said goodby to their mothers
and their 
numerous 
brothers and received the blessings of their priests
and rushed off to 
prove 
their manhood and their courage and their nationality
in this great 
opportunity of their time, thinking that this war
would be similar to 
the 
wars their fathers had fought and celebrated.

It wasn't.  It was a fixed slaughter.  No-one expected
what happened, 
no-one 
could conceive it, and all from the generals to the
privates were slow 
to 
recognize it and accept it.  "Just one more attack,
just one more push, 
and 
we can break through and be like the knights of old." 
Everyone was 
brave, 
but machine guns could mow down entire companies of
the bravest men who 
had 
ever been born.

Their enthusiasm was mowed down as well.  It took a
long time -- the 
enthusiasm had been engendered by generations of
education and cultural 
beliefs and previous survival of other wars --  but
when battles suck 
up 
100,000 men at a pop, for nothing, then even the most
patriotic 
competitors 
realize they're in a suckers game.  In the east the
Russians absorbed 
enormous casualties, then murdered their leaders and
withdrew from the 
war.  
The west, taking fewer casualties and being less
oppressed, still 
rebelled in 
its own way.  The French army actually revolted --
they didn't desert, 
but 
they refused to engage in any offensive action for a
while.  Most 
sections of 
the western front settled down to a routine of firing
off a few shells 
in the 
morning to satisfy their activity reports to their
superiors and then 
relaxing the rest of the day.  In the west battles
began to come only 
after 
enormous preparations and planning, showing the men
that "we can do 
this" 
with monstrously huge artillery bombardments, the
attitude always being 
"One 
more big push and we can finally have the war we
expected."  But it 
never 
happened.

After the war everyone, victors and losers alike, felt
betrayed and 
lied to.  
No-one was happy with the loss of half of an entire
generation.  The 
overriding attitude for decades afterwards was "Never
again."  Neville 
Chamberlain, that so-called appeaser, was a very
popular man in his 
time.

The WW1 over-the-top charge is not really comparable
to the tactic 
under 
discussion.  It was not a standard tactic for that
war, it was an 
inappropriate tactic engendered by ignorance and
generations of 
no-longer-relevant experience.  In the beginning men
did it seeking the 
kind 
of victory they had been led all their lives to
expect, and in the end 
they 
did it out of desperation, rote, and habit, still
seeking that victory.  
When 
(mind you) the _surviving victors_ finally realized
how misled and 
blind they 
had been for four years they turned violently against
what they had 
been 
taught and rejected it for decades.  Many still do to
this day.  NOW 
.... if 
you take hundreds of ambitious highly trained educated
and egotistical 
men 
(pilots are egotistical, they have to be) who are not
there to do grunt 
infantry work, and up-front tell them that their
standard ordinary 
everyday 
tactic will be to hurl themselves to their deaths by
the hundreds in 
the 
hope-against-hope that one or two of them might get
lucky and destroy a 
single capital ship ... well, they're going to race
through that whole 
four-year learning curve in one second and tell you no
way, and your 
pool of 
candidate pilots will dry up immediately.

there's leadership, and then there's armchair
generalship.  armchair 
generals 
that somehow wind up leading troops often get
fragged."

I'm sorry, but this has gotten rediculous. You go
around throwing the term "armchair general" around,
attempting to refute this point, when I don't think
you really know what the point is. The statement was
that at higher tech levels, fighters could damage or
"mission kill" capitol ships, but that the casualties
among the fighters would be high. In an intersteller
nation, with the resources of thousands of worlds,
some with populations many times larger than our own,
do you really think it would be so hard to recruit
vast numbers of qualified pilot types. Especially
since, in the real world, they almost always turn
viable candidates away from pilot training programs in
the USAF, and almost every other military in the
world? And then wash large numbers out, for almost
trivial reasons? It strains credibility to think the
Imperium would not be able to do this, not to mention
their opponents. 
The Zhodani would have no problem getting enough
people with the right manual dexterity and spatial
awareness to qualify. As for their attitude and
"obedience to orders", that is what the Tvarchedl is
for. Guaranteed to risk it all, for the "protection"
of the Consulate. The Vargr? A bit more problematic,
but they, as a race, seem to have even more of a
problem with "macho" a young humans do. I imagine if
you had a couple of charismatic senoir pilots, and
gave the fighters flashy paint jobs you could get a
fairly large number of Vargr to volunteer. And the
Sword Worlds? Almost tailored as a group where this
would be a viable tactic. I imaging you could get
thousands of the lower class youth on your average
Sword World planet to volunteer, to become one of the
"warrior elite", similar to the character played by
George Peppard in "The Blue Max". 
You have to think in terms of percentages, not actual
numbers, to determine your risk of becoming a casualty
in wartime. Many people who would gladly risk
themselves in air combat, even if the chances were
high that they would be injured or killed, would not
do the same in ground combat, even if the odds were
lower that they would be hurt. Something about being
able to influence your fate, if only slightly to the
better, and the sense of control that pilots have,
whether real or not, is a very large factor. 
As for the pilots being unreliable, well, that's what
the computer is for. If they try to sneak off in the
middle of the fight, their system locks itself down,
and returns the fighter to the carrier, or back to the
fight if it's capable of it.

Just my thoughts, 

John
jwdh71@yahoo.com



__________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] System Gen Help
Message-ID: <20020802001136.17476.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>

Help!

I am doing an extended system generation.  I rolled
for #6 to be the max orbit.  I also rolled for 2
captured planets.  One is in orbit 6.3 and the other
is in 6.0

Orbit 6 and 5 are both SGG's.  4 is the mainworld and
the habitable zone.

Is this legitimate?  Or do I need to move the captured
planet in orbit 6.0 to somewhere else.

Thanks.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
Message-ID: <131.11a94592.2a7b1a91@cs.com>

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In a message dated 8/1/02 3:04:45 PM Central Daylight Time, 
jgreenly@hsc.wvu.edu writes:


> Would a world that has 80% of its surface covered by water, a dense
> nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, and one moon that is large enough to exert a
> tidal effect tend to be more or less climatically active? Assume
> moderate (terran-normal) vulcanism and a fairly non-polluting early TL
> aqua/agricultural society. Also assume standard polar ice caps and
> rotation around 20 deg. off the plane of the ecliptic. I'll welcome any
> and all comments...
> 
> Jeff
> 

Since you've just pretty much described Earth (other than the dense 
atmosphere and the nonpolluting civilization) I'd say that, yes, it would be 
fairly climatically active. Indeed, the dense atmosphere would make for some 
hellacious storms (it might take a bit to get going, but it would take even 
longer to peter out.)

Doug Grimes

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 8/1/02 3:04:45 PM Central Daylight Time, jgreenly@hsc.wvu.edu writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Would a world that has 80% of its surface covered by water, a dense
<BR>nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, and one moon that is large enough to exert a
<BR>tidal effect tend to be more or less climatically active? Assume
<BR>moderate (terran-normal) vulcanism and a fairly non-polluting early TL
<BR>aqua/agricultural society. Also assume standard polar ice caps and
<BR>rotation around 20 deg. off the plane of the ecliptic. I'll welcome any
<BR>and all comments...
<BR>
<BR>Jeff
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>Since you've just pretty much described Earth (other than the dense atmosphere and the nonpolluting civilization) I'd say that, yes, it would be fairly climatically active. Indeed, the dense atmosphere would make for some hellacious storms (it might take a bit to get going, but it would take even longer to peter out.)
<BR>
<BR>Doug Grimes</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Law (Not at all Re: Patton)
Message-ID: <17f.bfe948b.2a7b2c91@aol.com>

John T. Kwon (aka "I am Weasel!") writes:

>There have been references to Imperial rules concerning 
>warfare - are there really any in canon?  No use of nukes by 
>non-Imperial forces?  Meson guns?  No genocide?  Eh?

The nuke prohibition is the main one stated, with the "massive ecological 
damage" and genocide statements sort of implied.

>The line from Apocalypse Now always made sense to me: 
>arresting someone for violating the rules of war is like 
>handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500.

Ah, but the arresting force in this case is a "High Prejudice" call from the 
Imperial Marines and Navy.  The poor sap who fired the nuke may or may not be 
arrested, but the entire chain of command that put that nuke in his hands, up 
to and including the local imperial noble if he is culpable, is either going 
to be dead due to "resisting arrest" (ie. firing at the landing Marines) or 
brought before the first applicable Imperial Noble in the feudal 
line-of-command...

The Imperium rules the "space between the planets", and the planets *like* it 
that way. Anyone who draws the Imperial Attention down to the surface of the 
planet has, by definition, done a Bad Thing.
("Surface" in this case does not normally include the starport, which is 
legally part of the "space" ruled by the Imperium.)

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEKMCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>
>
>When the Imperium deals with outsiders, all bets are...potentially...off.
However, the nobles of the
>Imperium are loath to abandon their own rules even then, and generally
won't unless the

[deletion]

>What these unwritten rules are is up to you, but personally, I use
>17th and 18th European rules concerning ransoms, hostages, pledges,
>prisoner exchanges, not attacking non-combatants, fighting away from
>civilian areas. and so on. Civilizated states abide by them,
>barbarians don't.

To paraphrase the narrator of Dr. Zhivago, "while the Europeans saw the
Great War as a struggle among the nations of Europe, we [Communists] saw it
as a struggle among Europe's upper classes."  To the extent that the ruling
classes of various interstellar entities recognize commonalities with one
another as rulers that may meet or exceed commonalities of culture with
their own servant classes, they will likely afford one another the
courtesies of conflict among the ruling class.

For example, Imperial nobles in the Spinward Marches are primarily of
Solomani ancestry (at least in my Traveller universe), as are the nobles of
the Sword Worlds.  I would expect them to follow certain conventions that
neither would follow in dealing with Vargr rabble.  The Zhodani, too, have a
set of noble traditions and a defined ruling class.  That might lead to some
amount of gentility in the Frontier Wars.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:55:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:55:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Acceptable losses
References: <20020731151827.2338.75109.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00a501c239bf$a4928e00$ac5d8690@computer>

I've been busy for a couple of days, so I'm replying to an old message:

> Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 11:00:17 -0400
> From: "John T. Kwon"
> There were even cavalrymen at High Wood who rode horses into
> a line of German machineguns who had not been shelled in
> advance.  Sheer butchery - and the only reason they were
> employed there was to demonstrate that there was still a need
> for cavalry.  The Germans in that instance lost zero men.
> The cavalry unit was reduced to a few men in a few minutes.

What's sad about this is that cavalry (mounted infantry) was still a
war-winning force at this time. Check out the Eastern Front and Palestine.
(And the Boer War and Russian Civil War, come to think of it.)

Cavalry was still useful, and widely used in WWII. It only died in droves
when it was misused by the kind of cretins that would run them into
machineguns.

(Of course, mounted charges sometimes worked spectacularly well, too. The
Australian Light Horse did some wonderful things in Palestine in WWI.)

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Parole Given...
Message-ID: <189.bb4aecb.2a7b32ae@aol.com>

Robert Uhl writes:

>
>How did it work historically?  What forms of parole were granted?
>

Depends on who was giving, and who was accepting. The one historical case I'm 
aware of involved an ancestor of mine during the Civil War.  A Southerner, he 
was part of a unit raised in his home state for the purpose of penetrating 
into Northern territory and breaking supply lines by sabotaging train tracks 
and the like. That unit was caught and defeated in detail, as the story goes, 
and a fairly large number of men were taken prisoner, including my ancestor.  
Apparently, the Northern unit was far from its own base, and could ill afford 
to deal with a large number of prisoners. So they sent them home. The family 
history relates that my ancestor was given back his gun and told to "go home, 
the war is over for you."  He did, because he knew they were correct.

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:57:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:57:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <20020801182132.8dc5803e76f94f1f98d7b72b3352174c.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <000001c239bf$a48101d0$6501a8c0@Darla>

Buffaloes did fight Zeroes at Midway.  VMF-221 on Midway was equipped
with 19 F2A-3's, of which 16 were lost on June 4.  

A big problem for the Buffalo was the weight gain due to, among other
things, the addition of armor and self-sealing tanks.  The F2A-1 weighed
3875lb empty, but the F2A-3 had grown to 4732lb empty.  Even with a more
powerful engine, initial climb was reduced to 2290 ft/min vice 3060
ft/min.

The Finnish Air Force did very will (477 kills!) with the 44 F2A-1's
that were delivered to them, but they were flying the lightweight
version of the Buffalo against poorly trained Russian pilots for the
most part.

Tom Barnes

Source: Wagner, American Combat Planes, pp.379-381


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 19:23:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Aug  1 18:23:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Baboon Class Missile Frigate
Message-ID: <00ba01c239c3$a1ad72a0$ac5d8690@computer>

Ship: Baboon
Class: Baboon
Type: Missile Frigate
Architect: Alan Bradley
Tech Level: 15

USP
         FM-A146892-000000-00009-0 MCr 809.580 1 KTons
Bat Bear                       1   Crew: 20
Bat                            1   TL: 15

Cargo: 81.000 Fuel: 480.000 EP: 80.000 Agility: 6 Shipboard Security Detail:
1
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 8.096   Cost in Quantity: MCr 647.664

Designed with Andrew Moffat-Vallance's wonderful High Guard Shipyard.
------------------------------------------

The Baboon Class Missile Frigate is a lightly equipped patrol/escort
vehicle.

In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships.

------------------------------------------

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 19:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Aug  1 18:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonabo Class Missile Frigate
Message-ID: <00d401c239c5$866e20a0$ac5d8690@computer>

Ship: Bonabo
Class: Bonabo
Type: Missile Frigate
Architect: Alan Bradley
Tech Level: 15

USP
         FM-A156892-000000-00009-0 MCr 1,196.140 1.5 KTons
Bat Bear                       1   Crew: 24
Bat                            1   TL: 15

Cargo: 2.000 Fuel: 870.000 EP: 120.000 Agility: 6 Shipboard Security Detail:
2
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 11.961   Cost in Quantity: MCr 956.912

Designed with Andrew Moffat-Vallance's wonderful High Guard Shipyard.
------------------------------------------

 A development of the Baboon Class Missile Frigate, the Bonabo is a lightly
equipped patrol/escort
vehicle, capable of Jump 5.

In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships.

 ------------------------------------------

 Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 19:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug  1 18:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
Message-ID: <20020802015140.32494.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>

Help again.

I'm working with World Tamer's Handbook from TNE and I
need to figure the Orbital Period and Rotation Period
for a couple satellites around a Gas Giant.  Problem
is, I don't know where to get the mass for these
beasts in Standard Masses?

Any clues?

Paul

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 20:08:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 19:08:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
In-Reply-To: <sd495bcc.012@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801185752.34d73740@pop.mindspring.com>

At 04:03 PM 8/1/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>Would a world that has 80% of its surface covered by water, a dense
>nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, and one moon that is large enough to exert a
>tidal effect tend to be more or less climatically active? Assume
>moderate (terran-normal) vulcanism and a fairly non-polluting early TL
>aqua/agricultural society. Also assume standard polar ice caps and
>rotation around 20 deg. off the plane of the ecliptic. I'll welcome any
>and all comments...

Need a few more data points:  What is the average temperture?  How long is
the day?
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 20:08:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 19:08:47 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
In-Reply-To: <B96ECAA0.67370%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200208011810.LVR04270@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801190225.470fd9fe@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:23 AM 8/1/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>on 8/1/02 11:10 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

>> I bet that fighting hole full of cold rainwater I stepped
>> into near LZ Aardvark was put there by Doug.  Thanks, Doug.

Only the best for my friends!  And he, I walked into my fair share of those.

>The wonderful bond of shared experience (misery).  We can all sit down
>together, drink beer, and share tales of the fine accommodations of Harmony
>Church, the facilities at AO Eagle, the pleasures of Columbus Georgia.
>Differentiated only by the uniform we wore, or the color of our boots and
>whether we took the SQT or the POIQT.

I went through Sand Hill, where the drills left mints on our pillows, but
much the same thing.. ah, the nights I spent on Victory Drive.. (we called
it VD Drive for obvious reasons.)
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Embrace Fascism.    The uniforms look cool


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 20:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Thu Aug  1 19:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Baboon Class Missile Frigate
Message-ID: <200208020215.g722FLw20931@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com>
>Subject: [TML] Baboon Class Missile Frigate
...
>         FM-A146892-000000-00009-0 MCr 809.580 1 KTons
>Bat Bear                       1   Crew: 20
>Bat                            1   TL: 15
>
>Cargo: 81.000 Fuel: 480.000 EP: 80.000 Agility: 6 Shipboard Security Detail: 1
>Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
...
>The Baboon Class Missile Frigate is a lightly equipped patrol/escort vehicle.
>
>In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships.

  <QUIBBLE> Not really? By TL E or F dampers make these ships just
too inefficient, IIRC?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 20:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 19:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
Message-ID: <d3.f702ca6.2a7b4ae9@aol.com>

 >including not commenting on how a
 >Washington police officer can be hired with felony convictions on his/her
 >record, provided that none were more recent than ten years ago at the time
 >of application.

Well, to be fair, if they didn't follow this hiring policy then could they 
find anyone to hire?

 >Nor will I criticize the voters of that city for being stupid enough to
 >re-elect as mayor a convicted drug dealer, and then expect the tone of the
 >city to be anything other than what it is.

Oh, but they're not stupid.  They knew what the tone of the city would be.  
That's why they voted for him.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 20:43:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Thu Aug  1 19:43:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <200208011145.LVF00804@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEGKEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

Flykiller says
>Yeah, I've seen 'em.  True story:  two female reservists on
>the gallery deck, looking lost and bored and a little
>nervous.  One of 'em suddenly brightens, turns to the other
>and says, "Let's go to the ship's mall!"  The other lights
>up with happiness and they head for the ladder down to the
>store.  It was almost more than I could take.
>

 Sounds like fairly typical 1980's era Navy reservists to me. Report aboard
for two weeks and spend most of your time at the exchange and commissary
soaking up those good Navy benefits. (Most of them could actually afford the
reduced price expensive junk in the exchange that most active duty sailors
couldn't. You know like imported German nick nacks and giant globes with
bars inside. And expensive stereos and electronics. Most lower level
enlisted members have long ago found Wal-Mart and Kmart vastly undersells
the Exchange.)

I never got a decent days work from a reservist, until the Gulf War when
they were called up for six months and found that the contract they sign
actually meant they had leave their cushy high paying job and really be a
sailor. Then most of them straitened out. A few still tried to duck their
duty. I found that this had nothing to do with their gender.

In the active service I've know many fine female sailors who were competent
technicians and fine seaman. And more than a few who were more competent
leaders than many of the critics who bemoaned the posting of woman to ships.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 20:46:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Thu Aug  1 19:46:07 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <3D49DF3B.FDFEAFD6@ameritech.net>

> From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
> Date: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 11:41 pm
>

<snip>

> For JTAS subscribers, the recently-completed starship design 
> contest (Contest #10) had some excellent hospital ships, albeit 
> mostly using design sequences other than HG2.  Note, though, that 
> the winning design (not mine, sad to say) was built using HG2.

That design would have been mine. And IMHO it wasn't the best design in
that contest. I won, I believe, because of my shameless misappropriation
of 20th century american pop culture icons. (I must have been channeling
Dave Nilsen)

All of which reminds me that I have to firm up the details for the next
design contest.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 21:16:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 20:16:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller HIDING
Message-ID: <124.1460d565.2a7b535d@aol.com>

 >>Could be.  Let's find out.  Show me.  Can you handle it?
 >
 >It amuses me far more to watch you beg.

Yes, basking in verbally-asserted superiority is indeed much more pleasant 
than risking actual defeat.  But of course indulging in this makes you a 
coward.

"Sun Tzu said, 'The King likes only empty words.  He is not capable of 
putting them into practice.' "


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 21:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Thu Aug  1 20:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <99.2a2d475a.2a779a93@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4A0109.D48E52E6@pobox.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> >Also, does a crippled fighter neccessarily mean dead crewman?
>
> using ct tables, a factor 9 salvo against a 90 ton fighter results in 9
> critical hits, of which a roll of 2 or 10 ( 1/36 + 3/36 ) represent immediate
> crew death (we'll ignore the presence or absence of rescue vessels, the
> consequences to a pilot of loss of power in his ship, etc).  this results in
> a ( 1 - ( 32 / 36 ) ^ 9 ) or a 65.4% chance of crew death upon being hit.  I
> don't know what typical fighter-pilot survival rates are, but I'll bet that's
> comparable to those of japanese zero's in ww2.

MJ Dougherty wrote: (in a separate message)

> ... surviving to carry out your
> mission is necessary. Surviving to do it again is good. But surviving to go
> home and collect the medals is what every sailor wants. And he wants to KNOW
> that measures have been taken to ensure he will. In almost all situations,
> force survivability is necessary to morale.

The pilot casualty rates you quote above are much too high, IMHO.  They are only
true if the attacker is using TL15 100-ton meson gun bays or if the fighter is
unarmored.
Fighters IMTU carry maximum armor.  This would reduce the non-meson crits listed
above from 9 to 2, with a corresponding increase in crew survival.  Meson hits
would still be Very Bad, but you can design an attack boat of less than 200 tons
that a TL15 capital ship has to roll a 10 on 2d6 to hit.  So, approximately, for
every 6 100-ton meson bays, you get one mission-kill per turn, but the crew
mostly survives.  Not bad odds.  BTW, you get another kill per turn for every two
spinal mounts.  These kills are probably not survivable.

I agree that a sub-100dT fighter cannot carry a weapon which can hurt a TL15
capital ship, mostly because of the difference in computer size.  This is why the
"fighters" in the smoke test were actually 1000dT boats with factor-9 missile
bays.

200-ton attack boats and 1kton missile boats are good if the target has armor
factor 13 or less.  You have to go to a 2kton boat to kill vessels (regardless of
size) which have armor greater than 13. All of these vessels are very survivable.

I'll post a couple of designs.

WKH









From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 22:08:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 21:08:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
In-Reply-To: <d3.f702ca6.2a7b4ae9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B96F53B0.67526%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 7:39 PM, Flykiller@aol.com at Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>> including not commenting on how a
>> Washington police officer can be hired with felony convictions on his/her
>> record, provided that none were more recent than ten years ago at the time
>> of application.
> 
> Well, to be fair, if they didn't follow this hiring policy then could they
> find anyone to hire?

But they couldn't carry a gun.  They'd be a prohibited person under Federal
law, unless they had filed for and received a 'relief from disability' from
the ATF.  And congress has stopped funding this program, so none are being
done.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 22:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Thu Aug  1 21:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <200208020409.g7249Rw09382@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Flykiller@aol.com
>Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 20:25:44 EDT
>Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller 
...
>>  I'm curious as to your evidence for capital ships being unviable,
>>at least at TL's C & D. Assuming that armour is substantial, then
>>larger warships can achieve real utility from mounting repulsors
>>(rules lawyering aside), and their PAWS allow them to handle said
>>frigates (unless Armour J Munchkin-mobiles) the way that some are
>>suggesting fighters would never be allowed to be used.

  As an aside, why are you not discussing the frigates that you 
had posited as the sole class of warship in the post to which I
was responding?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 22:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Thu Aug  1 21:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] max hull size
Message-ID: <200208020411.g724Baw09689@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller 
...
>Again, I'm assuming CT.  Let's see .... at tech 12, max hull size is 199,999 

  <1 MT (USP X) per HG2, pps. 26 & 28.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 22:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 21:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Warships
Message-ID: <36.2b621a09.2a7b633b@aol.com>

>USP
>         BK-H9059J3-L59005-55545-0 MCr 5,624.770 8 KTons
>Bat Bear             1   1 15118   Crew: 110
>Bat                  1   1 15118   TL: 15
>
>Cargo: 170 Fuel: 720.000 EP: 720 Agility: 5 Shipboard Security Detail: 8 

Thanks.  I really do appreciate it.  If I may, I'd like to ask some questions 
(assuming CT and tech 15 in the defender).

1)  If you have armor M, then why do you have a repulsor bay and sand casters?
2)  This vessel could be agility 0 and still be completely immune to all but 
spinal meson gun fire.  Meson screen 3 would be sufficient to completely stop 
any non-spinal-mount meson guns. Since you make it agility 5 and not just 1 
or 2, and give it meson screen 9 (spending all that money on power plant), 
you must expect it to encounter spinal-sized meson gun fire.  It cannot 
survive against such fire, nor can it retaliate.  CT makes no provision for 
the identification of the location of targets that are not out in the open, 
and I assume that big meson guns will be buried, so what rule do you use that 
allows it to shoot back?  the vessel here cannot penetrate meson screen 1 
anyway, so I assume that if there are any large defended meson guns on this 
planet you will be assigning other ships to try and kill them first.  If the 
other ships are that good, then why exactly do you need this one?  And if it 
only deals with mop-up, why give it agility 5 and meson screen 9?
3)  The vessel obviously relies on fuel shuttles (is the parent craft 
streamlined?), which will either be obtaining fuel from the planet oceans or 
from gas giants that are usually, what, a week away.  If the enemy has any 
hidden SDB's nearby you'll have to detail escorts for each shuttle, and 
you'll have to be almost 100% certain that such escorts will be able to drive 
off these SDB's or any raiders that show up.  The parent craft will also 
require guarding, which will require more escorts.  It seems to me that it 
would be more efficient to just pack all these escorts, carriers, and riders 
into a few tougher vessels.

It seems to me that this is a fairly large investment in material that is 
useful only after the enemy fleet is no longer a threat.  If your fleet is 
there guarding it then there's no reason to build it, and if your fleet is 
not there then you must have zero expectation of any significant enemy fleet 
elements showing up.

This individual vessel is tough and cheap, but I don't see the context that 
will make it appropriate.  Could you elaborate on the context?  Thanks.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 22:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Thu Aug  1 21:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat
References: <00ba01c239c3$a1ad72a0$ac5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <3D4A0BEB.49706A1F@pobox.com>

Ship: Pebble
Class: Pebble
Type: Attack Boat
Architect: WKH
Tech Level: 15

USP
         BA-1806E81-G00000-05000-0 MCr 250.607 185 Tons
Bat Bear                    1      Crew: 2
Bat                         1      TL: 15

Cargo: 0.350 Frozen Watch Emergency Low: 1 Fuel: 25.900 EP: 25.900 Agility: 6

Architects Fee: MCr 2.506   Cost in Quantity: MCr 200.485

Detailed Description

COMMENTS
The Pebble was designed to be hard to hit and hard to kill.  It combines a
planetoid hull (AF18) with a model 8 computer and yet retains an agility rating
of
6.  It packs a powerful short-range offensive punch by utilizing the most
advanced fusion gun technology available.

In case of crew casualty, a backup pilot/gunner can be carried as a frozen
watch.  An emergency low berth can accomodate the entire crew if the boat is
disabled.

Pebbles are often found operating in conjunction with Baboon class missile
frigates.

In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships which have an armor
factor of 13 or less.

HULL
185.000 tons standard, 2,590.000 cubic meters, Planetoid Configuration

CREW
Pilot, Gunner

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 6G Manuever, Power plant-14, 25.900 EP, Agility 6

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/8 Computer

HARDPOINTS
1 Hardpoint

ARMARMENT
1 Dual Fusion Gun Turret in 1 Battery (Factor-5)

DEFENCES
Armoured Hull (Factor-16)

CRAFT
None

FUEL
25.900 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
No Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
1.0 Stateroom, 1 Low Berth, 1 Emergency Low Berth, 0.350 Ton Cargo

COST
MCr 253.113 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 2.506), MCr 200.485 in Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
55 Weeks Singly, 44 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
The Pebble was designed to be hard to hit and hard to kill.  It combines a
planetoid hull (AF18) with a model 8 computer and yet retains an agility rating
of
6.  It packs a powerful short-range offensive punch by utilizing the most
advanced fusion gun technology available.

In case of crew casualty, a backup pilot/gunner can be carried as a frozen
watch.  An emergency low berth can accomodate the entire crew if the boat is
disabled.

Pebbles are often found operating in conjunction with Baboon class missile
frigates.

In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships which have an armor
factor of 13 or less.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 22:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Aug  1 21:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption (was: warship optimization)
Message-ID: <F176AUfKRfcjcMzfoV100024006@hotmail.com>

From: Bill Hopper <whopper@pobox.com>

     "I agree that a sub-100dT fighter cannot carry a weapon which can hurt 
a TL15 capital ship, mostly because of the difference in computer size.  
This is why the "fighters" in the smoke test were actually 1000dT boats with 
factor-9 missile bays."


Mr. Hopper,

     The fighter designs used in the smoke tests I was referring to were 
sub-100Ton types.  They were also run at TL12.  Here are the USPs:

FM-0306G51-000000-00002-1 MCr 138.525 50 tons
Batt bear 1 Crew; 1
Batt 1 TL: 12
Cargo: 1.000 Fuel: 8.000 EP: 1.000 Agility: 6

          and

FG-0306G51-000000-04000-0 MCr 138.275 50 tons
Batt Bear 1 Crew: 1
Batt 1 TL: 12
Cargo: 0.00 Fuel; 0.00 EP: 0.00 Agility: 2

     Please note, these designs were pretty much bare bones exercises, i.e. 
cram the weapons and computer aboard, hang the rest.  They could have easily 
been armored, up powered, and run to 99 dTons.  The FG especially could use 
a higher agility.

     "200-ton attack boats and 1kton missile boats are good if the target 
has armor factor 13 or less.  You have to go to a 2kton boat to kill vessels 
(regardless of size) which have armor greater than 13. All of these vessels 
are very survivable."

     Oh yes, I very much agree with you there, especially in the upper TL 
reaches.  Battleriders work, as long as you can protect the tender!

     "I'll post a couple of designs."

     Please do, then perhaps Mr. Flykiller could run them against his 
Spinward Marches Colonial (sic) Fleet.  Without those goofy crew skills 
level house rules too?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 22:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 21:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <m3ofclg93m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net> writes:
>
> > Sure, not now: a video game, even a military simulator, is simply
> > not possible of fully-simulating flight, combat &c.  But thousands
> > of years in the future that's not an issue.  If you can damp
> > inertia and fake gravity, you can fake the motions and sensations
> > of combat.  If you can broadcast in 3D, you can generate a
> > photo-realistic world outside the phony cockpit windows.  The only
> > thing you _cannot_ simulate is the fear of death--and real
> > military training cannot AFAIK do that either; only actual flight
> > time can do that.
> 
> "I'm sorry, but it appears that Cadet Uhl was killed by the
> simulator.  In the simulation, he accelerated his fighter to very
> high speed, then crashed it into the drives of an enemy battleship.
> The simulation ran its gravitics to simulate the crash and increased
> the temperature to simulate the fire when his L-Hyd tanks exploded.
> The combination of being crushed and burned caused injuries that we
> were unable treat effectively.  Next!"

You really think that a computer can be powerful enough to simulate
all that and yet not have safeguards to prevent death?  I would
imagine that it'd be just like a modern simulator: screw up and you
get the `shatter screen.'

Although it could also be used to give you a nasty shock or something
every time you screw up...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Mit den Frauen ist das wie mit den Firewalls: was [...] am meisten
Sicherheit garantiert und am wenigsten Probleme macht, ist immer das,
was zum speziellen Fall am besten passt.
                        --Urs Traenkner in de.comp.security.firewall

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 22:52:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 21:52:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat
In-Reply-To: <3D4A0BEB.49706A1F@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEKPIJAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Ship: Pebble
Class: Pebble
Type: Attack Boat
Architect: WKH
Tech Level: 15

USP
         BA-1806E81-G00000-05000-0 MCr 250.607 185 Tons
Bat Bear                    1      Crew: 2
Bat                         1      TL: 15

Cargo: 0.350 Frozen Watch Emergency Low: 1 Fuel: 25.900 EP: 25.900 Agility:
6

Architects Fee: MCr 2.506   Cost in Quantity: MCr 200.485

Detailed Description

COMMENTS
The Pebble was designed to be hard to hit and hard to kill.  It combines a
planetoid hull (AF18) with a model 8 computer and yet retains an agility
rating
of
6.  It packs a powerful short-range offensive punch by utilizing the most
advanced fusion gun technology available.

In case of crew casualty, a backup pilot/gunner can be carried as a frozen
watch.  An emergency low berth can accomodate the entire crew if the boat is
disabled.

Pebbles are often found operating in conjunction with Baboon class missile
frigates.

In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships which have an armor
factor of 13 or less.

HULL
185.000 tons standard, 2,590.000 cubic meters, Planetoid Configuration

CREW
Pilot, Gunner

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 6G Manuever, Power plant-14, 25.900 EP, Agility 6

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/8 Computer

HARDPOINTS
1 Hardpoint

ARMARMENT
1 Dual Fusion Gun Turret in 1 Battery (Factor-5)

DEFENCES
Armoured Hull (Factor-16)

CRAFT
None

FUEL
25.900 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
No Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
1.0 Stateroom, 1 Low Berth, 1 Emergency Low Berth, 0.350 Ton Cargo

COST
MCr 253.113 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 2.506), MCr 200.485 in
Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
55 Weeks Singly, 44 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
The Pebble was designed to be hard to hit and hard to kill.  It combines a
planetoid hull (AF18) with a model 8 computer and yet retains an agility
rating
of
6.  It packs a powerful short-range offensive punch by utilizing the most
advanced fusion gun technology available.

In case of crew casualty, a backup pilot/gunner can be carried as a frozen
watch.  An emergency low berth can accomodate the entire crew if the boat is
disabled.

Pebbles are often found operating in conjunction with Baboon class missile
frigates.

In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships which have an armor
factor of 13 or less.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Heh

Great minds and all that.  I sent this out for the Rodeo on
June 20.

jml


Permission granted to post as part of the TML Rodeo

Lest I forget, these ships were made using Mr.
Moffatt-Vallance's excellent High Guard Shipyard.

The Brilliant Pebble is one of the current Provincial
fleet elements protecting Glisten.  built out of slag
the tunneling that constantly is generated by the tunneling
that shapes the belt cities.

With 6 g acceleration, a 100 ton Particle Accelerator bay,
and very powerful computers the Pebble is a danger even to
capital ships, while it's armored rocky hull, back up computers,
marine contingent, and frozen watch render it a tenacious
scrapper

Ship: Glisten RX11-113
Class: Brilliant Pebble
Type: Monitor
Architect: jml
Tech Level: 15

USP
         PP-A8068J2-B00400-00906-0 MCr 1,134.444 1.6 KTons
Bat Bear                     1 1   Crew: 57
Bat                          1 1   TL: 15

Cargo: 44.000 Frozen Watch (x2) Fuel: 256.000 EP: 128.000 Agility: 1 Ships
Troops: 2 Marines: 25
Craft: 1 x 40T Pinnace
Backups: 1 x Model/8fib Computer 1 x Bridge

Architects Fee: MCr 11.344   Cost in Quantity: MCr 907.555


Detailed Description

TONNAGE
1,600.000 tons standard, 22,400.000 cubic meters, Planetoid Configeration

CREW
11 Officers, 21 Ratings, 25 Marines

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 6G Manuever, Power plant-8, 128.000 EP, Agility 1

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/9fib Computer
1 Backup Bridge, 1 Model/8fib Backup Computer

HARDPOINTS
1 100-ton bay, 6 Hardpoints

ARMARMENT
1 100-ton Particle Accelerator Bay (Factor-9), 6 Triple Missile Turrets in 1
Battery (Factor-6)

DEFENCES
Nuclear Damper (Factor-4), Armoured Hull (Factor-8)

CRAFT
1 40.000 ton Pinnace (Crew of 2)

FUEL
32.000 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 60 days endurance)
No Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
32.0 Staterooms, 60 Low Berths, 44.000 Tons Cargo

COST
MCr 1,145.788 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 11.344), MCr 907.555 in
Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
128 Weeks Singly, 103 Weeks in Quantity


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 22:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Aug  1 21:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Civility (was Re: warship HIDING)
Message-ID: <F60mzsZCnT9An4eVh2V00024324@hotmail.com>

From: Flykiller@aol.com

     "Yes, basking in verbally-asserted superiority is indeed much more 
pleasant than risking actual defeat.  But of course indulging in this makes 
you a (description deleted by LEW)"


Sir,

     This post was completely uncalled for, in very poor taste, and little 
more than flame bait.  Posting such a message was definitely beneath you.  I 
cannot believe you would normally behave in such a manner.  Passions may be 
running high on both sides of this discussion, but that doesn't mean we need 
to lower ourselves and make personal attacks.
     All of us on the List have been guilty of such behavior in the past, 
myself especially, but we all also try to conduct ourselves in as civil a 
manner as possible.  Because we're human, sometimes we fail.  However, we 
all still try.
     Your opinions and views have kicked off quite an interesting thread 
here on the List.  I have found your responses to other threads interesting 
also.  However, posting a message such as the one in question will do little 
more than earn you a place in many members' kill files.  Your posts, 
observations, and opinions deserve a better fate than that.
     I look forward to your future posts on a variety of threads and feel 
certain that you will conduct yourself in a truly civil manner.


     Sincerely,
     William R. Cameron, aka Larsen E. Whipsnade

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 23:36:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Thu Aug  1 22:36:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
In-Reply-To: <3D4A0109.D48E52E6@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEMJELAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Why would a warship allocate a factor 9 missile salvo, which as I understand
represents a lot of missiles against a single fighter? I know the HG rules
do the combat this way but it makes little sense. On the bridge, "commander
launch fifty missiles at that fighter..."


If people want fighters to be more effective in a high tech environment just
reduce the effectiveness of the point defence systems.

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 00:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 23:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] juries
Message-ID: <1a8.614142f.2a7b7b13@aol.com>

 >Maybe the concept of men, not so much laws, is not a bad 
 >one.  Sure, we could say that on Regina, there's no specific 
 >law against writing your ledgers that way.  On the other 
 >hand, if news gets out, and there's enough related heat (such 
 >as massive corporate collapse), the Duke of Regina will be 
 >sending you a personal invitation to the prison hulk.

What if he doesn't wait until there's enough "related heat"?  What if he 
doesn't wait for any heat at all?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 00:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 23:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <11c.14c7f23e.2a7b7e6b@aol.com>

 >Larsen raises several excellent points. I thought I would chime in,
 >briefly, because I am of the opinion that Mr. Fly simply doesn't get it
 >despite what the true warrior types on the TML have been (very
 >patiently) explaining. TML hasn't been this interesting in a while!
 >
 >One need only to look at the Battle of the Atlantic to see how much of
 >an effect esprit de corps and loyalty go towards men willingly going
 >into grave danger. I may be slightly off on my numbers, but the U-Boat
 >service saw the highest losses of ANY service branch, across all
 >nationalities during WW II. Something like 80% of all U-boatmen were KIA
 >towards the end of the war, with the average life expectancy being a
 >week.

A week?

I posted an adequate answer to that particular example.  No-one responded to 
it at all, patiently or otherwise.  Not that anyone has to, but ....

In reference to the original post that started all this, I don't know what 
else to say, 'cept I'm glad all these true warriors aren't in charge of 
making making major procurement and force deployment decisions.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 00:23:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 23:23:08 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <9f.2b1fbbad.2a7b7f21@aol.com>

 >BTW, I think some of the best Navy chow to be had is at RTC Great
 >Lakes.

What are you talking about?  They put chopped onions in the jello!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 01:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 00:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
Message-ID: <19e.6479ce5.2a7b8a94@aol.com>

 >Would a world that has 80% of its surface covered by water, a dense
 >nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, and one moon that is large enough to exert a
 >tidal effect tend to be more or less climatically active? Assume
 >moderate (terran-normal) vulcanism and a fairly non-polluting early TL
 >aqua/agricultural society. Also assume standard polar ice caps and
 >rotation around 20 deg. off the plane of the ecliptic. I'll welcome any
 >and all comments...

I've often wondered along those lines.  If you look at our system the size 2 
moon is at the very limit (book 6) of its possible orbit, yet when generating 
traveller systems it is quite possible to have much larger moons orbiting 
much closer to their world.  The tides would be huge.  I would imagine there 
would be very few costal cities throughout most systems, because they'd be 
flooded by 50 foot tides.

As I understand it weather is caused mostly by heat transfer across a 
planet's surface.  Since your world has a 20 degree axial tilt then I would 
think its weather would be about comparable to Terra's.  If denser atmosphere 
holds more heat then it should be more active.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 01:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 00:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <151.11ceca62.2a7b936d@aol.com>

 >The Germans, and
 >particularly the Japanese were horribly dehumanized.  We made our enemies
 >into monsters so then it was OK to exterminate them.

Seems to be part of the human condition.  Not only is the enemy an inhuman 
monster and responsible for any and all evil, _we_ are pure as the 
wind-driven snow in any and all circumstances.  "It's Al Qaida's fault we 
bombed a wedding party!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 01:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 00:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <41.21182628.2a7b9569@aol.com>

 >"A mediocre plan executed immediately is better than a briliant plan
 >executed later."

Good post.  I always thought the quote was "A good plan now is better than a 
perfect plan later."  I like it better that way anyway.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 02:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 01:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <de.2af56363.2a7b992a@aol.com>

 >> >HMS Glow-worm ramming the Admiral Hipper comes to mind. The destroyer's
 >>  >mass
 >>  >was literally the only thing that might hurt the cruiser, and if she
 >wasn't
 >>  >hurt then the convoy would be massacred. Her skipper knew his ship would
 >>  >sink; he knew many (but probably not all) of his crew would die. But the
 >>  >decision was made in the face of the enemy, for a clear goal - to save
 >>  >hundreds of helpless merchant seamen. Would the crew have accepted an
 >>  >Admiralty policy of "we're not giving you torpedoes. You're to close and
 >>  >ram, then sink"? In desperate times, some people actually would. But,
 >say,
 >>  >in 1934? Nope.
 > 
 >Not to disagree with    the point of the comment but some details on the
 >loss of HMS Glowworm  was not escorting a convoy at the time of the battle
 >with the Hipper, she had been part of a minelaying sortie off the Norwegian
 >coast she became seperated from her consorts and came across on of the
 >Hipper's escrting destroyers.

Here's the url for the true story.  Nice site.

http://www.hmsglowworm.org.uk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 02:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Pronto)
Date: Fri Aug  2 01:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Civility (was Re: warship HIDING)
In-Reply-To: <F60mzsZCnT9An4eVh2V00024324@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000201c239fc$f5e3bd00$1202a8c0@RodgerYoung>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com 
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Larsen 
> E. Whipsnade
> Sent: August 1, 2002 9:54 PM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] Civility (was Re: warship HIDING)
> 
> 
> 
>      This post was completely uncalled for, in very poor 
> taste, and little 
> more than flame bait.  Posting such a message was definitely 
> beneath you.

<Deleted, you wrote it, you know what was here.  :)   >

>      I look forward to your future posts on a variety of 
> threads and feel 
> certain that you will conduct yourself in a truly civil manner.
> 
> 
>      Sincerely,
>      William R. Cameron, aka Larsen E. Whipsnade
> 

Excellently done!   Bravo!   You are truly a civilized person.

Pronto
AKA Brian Taylor



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 02:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Edward Swatschek)
Date: Fri Aug  2 01:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <200208011817.LVR05093@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208011817.LVR05093@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020802083028.LLOT14925.priv-edtnes04.telusplanet.net@there>

On Thursday 01 August 2002 11:17, John T. Kwon wrote:
>>
> There have been references to Imperial rules concerning
> warfare - are there really any in canon?  No use of nukes by
> non-Imperial forces?  Meson guns?  No genocide?  Eh?

The Rules were established early in CT (Sup11: Library Data N-Z, Striker,  
et al).  

First, they apply to conflict within the Imperium, and aim to maintain it's 
economic & military well-being.

The conflict should be local to a single system, though extra-planetary 
'assistance' is allowed within limits.  

They are unwritten so as to prevent formal precedent from preventing 
Imperial intervention.

"...use or possesion of nuclear weapons, if discovered, will almost 
certainly trigger Imperial intervention.  The Imperium alone retains rights 
to such weapons ... certain other weapons (chemical and bacteriological 
agents, and meson accelerators, for example) are strictly controlled, 
although they are not subject to the sweeping restrictions placed on 
nuclear weapons."



-- 
Edward Swatschek - edjs@bitslayer.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 02:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 01:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <200208012327.LWC00112@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <000201c23a02$bf4aef60$0112bd50@martinjd>

> "MJ Dougherty" says
> >Where will you fight these engagements? How will you make
> >sure you have the choice of where and when to meet the enemy
> >fleet? What happens if he feints and threatens with the
> >battle fleet in being and floods your systems with
> >commerce raiders to break up your logistics chain?
>
> As I believe was mentioned before, those little fighters make
> excellent raiders - You could probably build fairly small,
> fairly cheap ones that would, especially in numbers, lay
> waste to the typical merchant ships.  The ship that carried
> them might not be very large, and could remain far outsystem.
>
> Let me think about this for a while...

Raider-carriers are an excellent idea. I wonder if escort carriers could
counter them. Or if they could carry enough fighters to scrub a decent light
cruiser before it closed and killed the carrier. Or....




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 02:49:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 01:49:04 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <45.1b1ae706.2a7ba15e@aol.com>

 >> ah yes, military spending.  but have you noticed that money is not at all
 >> the limiting factor in naval construction?  and even if it were, it's not
 >> the factor you make it out to be.  in the united states today, 250 million
 >> citizens contribute $300 billion or so annually in defense spending --
 >> that's $1200 from each man, woman, child, and illegal alien.  trillion
 >> credit squadron states that each imperial citizen contributes an average 
of
 >> 500Cr towards their navy -- I don't think that that is at all 
unreasonable,
 >> especially given that their military is primarily naval.  if anything it's
 >> too low, but it's still enough to allow the spinward marches to pay for
 >> about 2500 200kton battleships.  that's a lot of hardware, enough to put,
 >> what, ten battleships in each and every imperial spinward marches system. 
 >> what significant optimization can be had here?  there's some, but not 
much.
 >
 > hmmm... I must examine this .... after applying exchange rates and 
figuring 
 >the costs of support facilities, supplies and auxiliaries ( not to mention 
 >graft and 400$ hammers)

I'd like to hear what you find.  When I researched the Spinward Marches and 
realized what was really going on it was quite eye-opening.  So many ideas, 
even canon ideas, went out the window.

 >> as an aside, yeah, I suppose so.  but I subscribe completely to gary 
 >> gygax's idea:  "More 'realistic' combat systems could certainly have been
 >> included here, but they have no real part in a game for a group of players
 >> having an exciting adventure."
 >
 >Here is the schwerpunkt.

Isn't that a great word?

 >Do people play traveller as a wargame...or do they 
 >play traveller as a RPG.?

For me it's an RPG, but each one leads to the other.

 >How wonderful that there exists a game that can do 
 >both well.

Completely agree.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 03:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 02:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <m3ofclg93m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <004301c23a04$8cdeff60$0112bd50@martinjd>

> You really think that a computer can be powerful enough to simulate
> all that and yet not have safeguards to prevent death?  I would
> imagine that it'd be just like a modern simulator: screw up and you
> get the `shatter screen.'
>
> Although it could also be used to give you a nasty shock or something
> every time you screw up...

There are simulator drawbacks - "simulator sickness", which is kind of
psychosomatic motion sickness, can begin to manifest itself on real missions
(or cause them to not do certain things because they expect sim sickness).
Pilots sometimes begin to develop habits that optimise their performance in
the simulator rather than in the real environment. And they can develop a
habit of recklessness since they can't die, which is bad if carried over, or
sometimes evaporates in a mist of nerves because suddenly they CAN.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 03:03:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 02:03:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <99.2a2d475a.2a779a93@aol.com> <3D4A0109.D48E52E6@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <005801c23a04$ec770b20$0112bd50@martinjd>

> I agree that a sub-100dT fighter cannot carry a weapon which can hurt a
TL15
> capital ship, mostly because of the difference in computer size.  This is
why the
> "fighters" in the smoke test were actually 1000dT boats with factor-9
missile
> bays.
>

Huh? 1000 tons is an escort, or a frigate or something. But certainly not a
fighter.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 03:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri Aug  2 02:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
References: <20020802062003.11635.24330.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D4A4D4B.3C4D1955@ameritech.net>

> Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 18:51:40 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com>
>
> Help again.
> 
> I'm working with World Tamer's Handbook from TNE and I
> need to figure the Orbital Period and Rotation Period
> for a couple satellites around a Gas Giant.  Problem
> is, I don't know where to get the mass for these
> beasts in Standard Masses?
> 
> Any clues?

I couldn't find that info in any TNE source. There are charts for that
in "World Builder's Handbook" for MT. Assuming for the moment that you
don't have access to that very worthwhile publication I can give you
some typical figures from that source.

Smallest SGG radius = 20
Average SGG radius ~= 60
Highest SGG radius = 100

Smallest LGG radius = 110
Average LGG radius ~= 175
Highest LGG radius = 240

Lowest GG density = .1
Average GG density ~= .21
Highest GG density = .3

Send me a private email if you want the full charts. (I just don't have
the energy to type all of it up at the moment)

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 03:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 02:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <151.11ceca6f.2a7ba7cc@aol.com>

 >> Yes, with a huge Japanese fleet threatening their homeland and only them
 >> standing between the yellow peril and their families.  It was not, 
however, a
 >> standard tactic, employed "because they'll tolerate it".
 > 
 >Read Miracle at Midway a few years back. IIRC the torpedo planes were the 
ones EXPECTED to take out
 >the jap ships. But communication, navigation and planning errors resulted 
in the attacks being
 >uncoordinated and the TBY's? wound up being slaughtered by the jap CAP and 
the ships. When the dive
 >bombers showed up there were no planes in a position to oppose their attack.

This example doesn't make your point.  They wound up doing what they did 
because they were making the best of a bad situation,  not because it was a 
standard tactic.  Deciding that because they were willing to work it out that 
therefore you can order them to do it this way every time is abusive of their 
profession.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 03:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 02:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <151.11ceca6f.2a7ba7cc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <008b01c23a07$bf413920$0112bd50@martinjd>

>Read Miracle at Midway a few years back. IIRC the torpedo planes were the
> ones EXPECTED to take out
>  >the jap ships. But communication, navigation and planning errors
resulted
> in the attacks being
>  >uncoordinated and the TBY's? wound up being slaughtered by the jap CAP
and
> the ships. When the dive
>  >bombers showed up there were no planes in a position to oppose their
attack.
>
> This example doesn't make your point.  They wound up doing what they did
> because they were making the best of a bad situation,  not because it was
a
> standard tactic.  Deciding that because they were willing to work it out
that
> therefore you can order them to do it this way every time is abusive of
their
> profession.

Yes indeed. These guys did their job and made the attack despite everything
that was going wrong. The US aircrews got hammered - in fact, what killed
the IJN more than anything else was losses in good pilots, resulting
declining capability and more losses from elementary "inexperience" errors.

But anyway, point is that motivated, armed people will do their best nearly
all of the time. Creating policies that slaughter them for no good reason is
stupid, and will rob you of that motivation.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 03:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 02:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <177.c4ef5d8.2a7ba9ee@aol.com>

 >>Sure, not now: a video game, even a military simulator, is simply not
 >>possible of fully-simulating flight, combat &c.  But thousands of
 >>years in the future that's not an issue.  If you can damp inertia and
 >>fake gravity, you can fake the motions and sensations of combat.  If
 >>you can broadcast in 3D, you can generate a photo-realistic world
 >>outside the phony cockpit windows.  The only thing you _cannot_
 >>simulate is the fear of death--and real military training cannot AFAIK
 >>do that either; only actual flight time can do that.
 >
 >"I'm sorry, but it appears that Cadet Uhl was killed by the simulator.  In
 >the simulation, he accelerated his fighter to very high speed, then crashed
 >it into the drives of an enemy battleship.  The simulation ran its gravitics
 >to simulate the crash and increased the temperature to simulate the fire
 >when his L-Hyd tanks exploded.  The combination of being crushed and burned
 >caused injuries that we were unable treat effectively.  Next!"

No depressurization?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 04:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 03:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
In-Reply-To: <20020802062003.11635.24330.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020802062003.11635.24330.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <eimkkukp9lm8iv0tjm0iu5gvjaoi5j6oov@4ax.com>

On Thu, 01 Aug 2002 23:20:03 -0700, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

[quoting me]

> >including not commenting on how a
> >Washington police officer can be hired with felony convictions on his/her
> >record, provided that none were more recent than ten years ago at the time
> >of application.

>Well, to be fair, if they didn't follow this hiring policy then could they 
>find anyone to hire?

Yes.  In NYC, they call such positions 'hard to recruit', and that
automatically invokes paragraph 1127 of the Charter of the City of New York
- which paragraph allows them _not_ to impose or enforce the residency
requirement, and _does_ require that an employee hired under it be assessed
a non-tax payment, computed like the city's income tax, as a 'condition of
employment'.

> >Nor will I criticize the voters of that city for being stupid enough to
> >re-elect as mayor a convicted drug dealer, and then expect the tone of the
> >city to be anything other than what it is.

>Oh, but they're not stupid.  They knew what the tone of the city would be.  
>That's why they voted for him.

I refuse to believe that they _want_ a city that is so badly mismanaged
that Congress was ready to take away what autonomy they had.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 04:22:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 03:22:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Terminal Authors' Diarrhea
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020727101338.482f1ef0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20802.012022.5a5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 01:41 PM 7/27/2002 +0000, you wrote:
>
>>     Larsen, currently slogging through Turtledove's "Blood and Iron"
>
> "The Center Cannot Hold" is already out.  And it is wonderful!  I might Dr,
> Turtledove at BayCon, and suggested that I'd love to see the CSA timeline
> reach 1942.. and suddenly have the Race (from the Worldwar series) show up.
>  He told me he had been torturing his editor with that idea for sometime
> already.

Now you've given me an *evil* idea...

The Race shows up in 1942. And runs into the WWII of S.M. Stirling's
"Marching Through Georgia".

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 04:23:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Aug  2 03:23:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <000201c23a02$bf4aef60$0112bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3D4B05EA.9496.5198B9B@localhost>

On 2 Aug 2002, at 1:14, MJ Dougherty wrote:

> Raider-carriers are an excellent idea. I wonder if escort carriers could
> counter them. Or if they could carry enough fighters to scrub a decent light
> cruiser before it closed and killed the carrier. Or....

Ship: Nairana
Class: Vindex
Type: Escort Carrier
Architect: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
Tech Level: 13

USP
         RE-A731332-040000-44003-1 MCr 791.714 1 KTons
Bat Bear             6     11  2   Crew: 52
Bat                  6     11  2   TL: 13

Cargo: 11.400 Fuel: 330 EP: 30 Agility: 1 Marines: 7
Craft: 8 x 30T Patrol Fighters, 2 x 20T Lifeboats
Fuel Treatment: On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 4.893   Cost in Quantity: MCr 693.851


Detailed Description

HULL
1,000.000 tons standard, 14,000.000 cubic meters, Dispersed Structure 
Configuration

CREW
Pilot, Navigator, 4 Engineers, Medic, 10 Gunners, 18 Flight Crew, 7 
Marines, 10 Additional Crew (User Defined)

ENGINEERING
Jump-3, 1G Manuever, Power plant-3, 30.000 EP, Agility 1

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/3 Computer, Model/2 Flight Avionics, Model/3 Sensors, 
Model/3 Maser Communications

HARDPOINTS
10 Hardpoints

ARMAMENT
2 Triple Missile Turrets organised into 2 Batteries (Factor-3), 1 Triple Beam 
Laser Turret organised into 1 Battery (Factor-4), 1 Dual Fusion Gun Turret 
organised into 1 Battery (Factor-4)

DEFENCES
6 Triple Sandcaster Turrets organised into 6 Batteries (Factor-4)

CRAFT
8 30.000 ton Patrol Fighters (Crew of 2, Cost of MCr 36.920), 2 20.000 ton 
Lifeboats (Crew of 1, Cost of MCr 3.520)

FUEL
330 Tons Fuel (3 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
No Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
26 Staterooms, 1 Engineering Shop, 1 Vehicle Shop, 20 Tons of Missile 
Magazines (holding 400 missiles), 11.400 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
1 Maintainance Hanger (60.000 tons, Crew 10, Cost MCr 0.600), 4 Brig 
Cells (4.000 tons, Crew 0, Cost MCr 0.700)

COST
MCr 494.207 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 4.893), MCr 391.451 in 
Quantity, plus MCr 302.400 of Carried Craft (Hardpoints and Turrets 
charged)

CONSTRUCTION TIME
120 Weeks Singly, 96 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
The humble escort carrier is an often overlooked member of the Imperial 
Navy, but nonetheless it is probably one of the most useful vessels at the 
Emperor's disposal. Its modest costs coupled with the fexibility granted by 
its fighters give it range of options available to virtually no other type of 
vessel.

The escort carrier concept was developed by Cleon Zhunastu (later 
Emperor Cleon I) in the final years of the Sylean Federation. Initially 
intended as an answer to the endemic piracy that afflicted the fringes of the 
Federation, the type rapidly proved to be one of the most versatile in the 
fleet.

The Vindex class is a fairly typical example of the type. Designed during 
the later stages of the Civil War, it first found popularity amongst planetary 
navies and corporate interests seeking to find a cost effective suppliment 
for reduced Imperial Navy patrols. The class has also proved to be 
extremely flexible, often used to provide orbital and air support for minor 
troop deployments.

Ship: Puffin
Class: Puffin
Type: Patrol Fighter
Architect: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
Tech Level: 13

USP
         FP-0604B31-230000-20002-0 MCr 46.150 30 Tons
Bat Bear             1     1   1   Crew: 2
Bat                  1     1   1   TL: 13

Cargo: 0.500 Fuel: 3.300 EP: 3.300 Agility: 4 Pulse Lasers
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops

Architects Fee: MCr 0.462   Cost in Quantity: MCr 36.920


Detailed Description

HULL
30.000 tons standard, 420.000 cubic meters, Airframe Flattened Sphere 
Configuration

CREW
Pilot, Gunner

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 4G Manuever, Power plant-11, 3.300 EP, Agility 4

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/3 Computer, Model/3 Flight Avionics, Model/3 Sensors, 
Model/3 Maser Communications

HARDPOINTS
1 Hardpoint

ARMAMENT
1 Triple Mixed Turret with: 1 Pulse Laser (Factor-2), 1 Missile Rack (Factor-
2).

DEFENCES
1 Sandcaster in the Mixed Turret, organised into 1 Battery (Factor-3), 
Armoured Hull (Factor-2)

CRAFT
None

FUEL
3.300 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
1 Small Craft Stateroom, 2 Acceleration Couches, 1 Ton of Missile 
Magazines (holding 20 missiles), 0.500 Ton Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 46.612 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 0.462), MCr 36.920 in 
Quantity (Hardpoints and Turrets charged)

CONSTRUCTION TIME
16 Weeks Singly, 13 Weeks in Quantity

Ship: Lifeboat
Class: Lifeboat
Type: Lifeboat
Architect: Standard
Tech Level: 13

USP
         QX-0201101-000000-00000-0 MCr 4.400 20 Tons
Bat Bear                           Crew: 1
Bat                                TL: 13

Cargo: 4 Emergency Low: 6 Fuel: 4.200 EP: 0.200 Agility: 1
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops

Architects Fee: MCr 0.044   Cost in Quantity: MCr 3.520


Detailed Description

HULL
20.000 tons standard, 280.000 cubic meters, Cone Configuration

CREW
Pilot

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 1G Manuever, Power plant-1, 0.200 EP, Agility 1

AVIONICS
Bridge, No Computer Installed

HARDPOINTS
None

ARMAMENT
None

DEFENCES
None

CRAFT
None

FUEL
4.200 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance, plus 4.000 tons 
of additional fuel)
On Board Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
2 Acceleration Couches, 2 Low Berths, 6 Emergency Low Berths, 4 Tons 
Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 4.444 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 0.044), MCr 3.520 in 
Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
11 Weeks Singly, 9 Weeks in Quantity


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 04:23:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Aug  2 03:23:53 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <sd494643.049@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
Message-ID: <3D4B05EA.8754.5198B91@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002, at 14:28, Jeff D. Greenly wrote:

> One need only to look at the Battle of the Atlantic to see how much of
> an effect esprit de corps and loyalty go towards men willingly going
> into grave danger. I may be slightly off on my numbers, but the U-Boat
> service saw the highest losses of ANY service branch, across all
> nationalities during WW II. Something like 80% of all U-boatmen were KIA
> towards the end of the war, with the average life expectancy being a
> week. 

True to a point. But there's a very important proviso. The average crew of a 
U-boat was around 40-50 IIRC. This provides a mass of esprit de corps to 
"steady" the crew. The individual members draw strength from each other, 
the presense of your comrades acts as a break on panic and provides a 
strong disincentive to running away. However in a fighter you probably are 
all alone, the nearest friendly is tens of kilometers away and there's 
nobody to see if you stand as a "hero" or run as a "coward".

Personally I don't think the massed fighter approach works over the long 
term due to the cost in highly trained crew. However, I can well see it being 
not that uncommon, especially when one side feels desperate.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 04:24:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Aug  2 03:24:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <F228Wv2vyWb6cxHKx7000010140@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B05EA.18849.5198B91@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002, at 15:57, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      "...although not as bad as the Swordfish(1)."

>      Please excuse me, I forgot to add the footnote.

> (1) - The Swordfishs' very obs0lescence may have actually helped it survive in
> battle.  A most likely apophrycal story from the Bismarck saga has the German
> AA fire missing the attacking Swordfish because the aircraft were moving too
> SLOW, the AA crews led their targets by too much.  Swordfish made their
> torpedo runs at ~90 mph and weather conditions could drop that speed even
> further.
>      The Swordfish may been viwed as a joke by other navies, it still got the
> job done at Taranto and with the Bismarck however.

Don't dis the Swordfish, it was one of the 2nd WW most successful ASW 
aircraft. They served with no less than 26 squadrons, remained in 
production till late 1944 and only retired from active service on 21st May 
1945. :*>

ObTrav: Never, never underestimate the value of a well engineered lower 
tech design. You write off the well proven technology of the previous 
generation at your own peril. The Swordfish outlasted her replacement and 
was better in her role (carrier based ASW) than any other allied aircraft


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 04:28:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Aug  2 03:28:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <99.2a2d475a.2a779a93@aol.com> <3D4A0109.D48E52E6@pobox.com> <005801c23a04$ec770b20$0112bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <006401c23a0f$3ca9da00$7400a8c0@matt>

MJ Dougherty wrote:
>> I agree that a sub-100dT fighter cannot carry a weapon which can
>> hurt a TL15 capital ship, mostly because of the difference in
>> computer size.  This is why the "fighters" in the smoke test were
>> actually 1000dT boats with factor-9 missile bays.
>>
>
> Huh? 1000 tons is an escort, or a frigate or something. But certainly
> not a fighter.

The House rule I use to allow Fighters to be more effective is to let
Squadrons be treated as Batteries. ie, each fighter in the squadron is the
equivalent of a turret in a battery, with corresponding increase in weapon
USP, at the penalty of fewer salvos. This represents the squadron acting in
a co-ordinated way to attack a single target, concentrating their fire on
one spot so as to overwhelm it. The capital ship firing on the attacking
squadron still has to target individual fighters. As fighters are destroyed,
recalculate the effective USP of the squadrons 'battery'

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 04:52:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 03:52:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com>

 >>  >Low-end ships so you can do all your jobs within your budget maybe?
 >>
 >> I understand that, but there's the question of what your enemy is doing.
 >> Consider the extreams -- if your goal is to win engagements then you'll
 want
 >> a few expensive capital ships, but if you want to "do all the jobs" then
 >> you'll want a herd of warm bodies (as it were).  Between the extreams is
 the
 >> balance -- but where is it?  I think it's way over in the "win
 engagements"
 >> side.
 >
 >Engagemnents of what sort? Enough commerce raiders can cripple your economy
 >(Battle of the Atlantic etc) despite your excellent battle fleet. If the
 >engagements you need to win are escort/raider ones, then you need many ships
 >to cover the area, but ones good enough to beat or deter the raiders.

A good point worthy of discussion.  I have commerce raiders, but I envision 
them as travelling in a single mass, outrunning and dodging attempts by 
serious fleet elements to pursue them (unless, of course, the raiders blunder 
into them).  Small patrols and escorts are never going to be able to deal 
with such a herd, while major patrols and escorts deployed everywhere will 
seriously impact the size of the remaining core fleet.  How serious is the 
trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took place because the small island 
of England was not self-sufficient in either agricultural or industrial 
matters, but I don't think this situation will arise on many _planets_.  If 
trade is truly a major issue and lifeline then a massed herd of raiders will 
be crippling regardless of any other fleet elements employed.  But I think 
most planets with populations sufficient to have significant trade 
connections will have huge internal capacites to produce what they need 
anyway, and huge reserves of whatever they have to import (consider our 
Strategic Oil Reserve).  I see raiders as nothing more than annoyance attacks 
-- they can't lay seiges, they can't do major battles, and they can't stay in 
any area too long or some task force will find them and kick their ass -- 
that can't be instantly responded to in an adequate manner.  You can't be 
strong everywhere, and if you try you'll be rolled up.  Further, if your 
opponent takes that tonnage that you devoted to patrols and escorts and uses 
it to build a major fleet element instead, that element will be able to 
stroll through the isolated patrols and escorts like a bull in a china shop, 
wasting the tonnage you devoted to them.

 >> If you "cover all the bases" with warm bodies but have to flee every
 >> time the heavyweight enemy shows up then what good is that?  There is no
 >> substitute for victory, and to get that victory you need the heavyweights
and
 >> you need more of them than your enemy.
 >
 >You need greater concentration of force at the critical point. That can be
 >done with less ships, better handled and supported.

I don't think you can get "greater concentration of force" with "less ships". 
 All other things being equal, if 1/3 of your fleet runs into 2/3 of the 
enemy fleet then you're gonna get smooshed.  Then all your patrols and 
escorts won't matter.

 >That said, victory is not necessarily gained by defeating the enemy battle
 >fleet. If you do that, but he scrubs your industrial worlds with planetary
 >raider ships, or kills your economy with commerce raiders, then you may not
 >have won at all.

True.  But several points.  1)  If all he has left is raiders, then you'll 
march into _his_ territory with some surviving unopposed capital ships while 
sending the rest after the raiders, who will be forced to continuously flee 
with no refuge.  2)  Major industrial worlds will have their own local 
defense forces, and no raider fleet I can imagine will be able to take on an 
AX (population A, tech (game tech level)) world's local defense force, so the 
majority of your population should be safe.  3)  How would you stop this 
anyway?  A large raider force is not expensive to build, but if you try to 
put anti-raider forces sufficient to engage such raiders at every possible 
point they may attack then you won't have much left on your front lines, and 
the enemy will wind up attacking your industrial worlds not with raiders but 
with capital ships.  4)  As for commerce interdiction it will be unpopular 
with the folks, but in my opinion not militarily significant.

 >> If by patrol you mean scouts, then yes.  But if you mean general policing
 >> then I'd think that would be a local police matter and not a fleet matter.
 >
 >I mean patrol ships to defeat piracy, commerce raiding and smuggling,

That's all local.  If a system is really strapped, I'd send some fleet 
escorts to help out.  War is not always imminent, after all.  Too, while the 
Imperium cares about some weapons, why should it care about the smuggling of 
anything else?  "Admiral!  Smugglers are transporting illegal cargos of 
cigarettes to Zivije!"  "Ensign, go there immediately.  Buy me a few packs."

 >to
 >catch enemy intelligence ships and recon vessels

I'd use scouts to watch them, and try to catch them on the way out -- if I 
thought they had relevant information.  What are they going to say?  "There's 
a planet here!"?  "There's some sort of secret facility over here!"?  "There 
were no ships in this system two months ago!"?  But frankly, a traitor 
civilian in a free trader or a seeker would be impossible to detect, and 
would provide just as much information.

 >to prevent the stockpiling of forward supply bases

Scouts would see the incoming traffic, and the fleet would send some elements 
to check it out.

 >to gain intelligence

Scouts again.

 >to show the flag and keep systems in line....

I'd use the regular fleet to do that.  "Join the Navy and see the world!"

It's getting late.  I hope I've said something useful with a minimum of 
"noise".

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 04:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 03:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <99.2a2d475a.2a779a93@aol.com> <3D4A0109.D48E52E6@pobox.com> <005801c23a04$ec770b20$0112bd50@martinjd> <006401c23a0f$3ca9da00$7400a8c0@matt>
Message-ID: <003201c23a14$66243100$7d03bd50@martinjd>

> >>
> >
> > Huh? 1000 tons is an escort, or a frigate or something. But certainly
> > not a fighter.
>
> The House rule I use to allow Fighters to be more effective is to let
> Squadrons be treated as Batteries. ie, each fighter in the squadron is the
> equivalent of a turret in a battery, with corresponding increase in weapon
> USP, at the penalty of fewer salvos.

Why do you want fighters to be more effective?

>This represents the squadron acting in
> a co-ordinated way to attack a single target, concentrating their fire on
> one spot so as to overwhelm it. The capital ship firing on the attacking
> squadron still has to target individual fighters. As fighters are
destroyed,
> recalculate the effective USP of the squadrons 'battery'

I see the concept, though you'd have to simulate C3 breakdowns, loss of
cohesion etc

>
> Matt
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 05:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Fri Aug  2 04:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Blowing holes in Japan (was " Re Patton")
Message-ID: <F6qF77mNl6ahF9JckUL00023608@hotmail.com>

Gentles, I believe part of the rationale (if such is really possible) behind 
dropping the nuclear weapons on Japan was that the person[1] running the 
country refused to believe that the Americans would have the capacity (moral 
or technological) to defeat the "honorable" Japanese nation.
Unfortunately, the only way to get through his racism and bigotry  - and 
show him that he *would* not win by forcew of arms - was to kill thousands 
of "innocent" civilians.  Whilst such a move is horrific for us to 
contemplate today, remember that the circumstances then were a little 
different...

[1]IIRC, Emporer Hirohito - who continued to see *absolutely nothing wrong* 
in the abuses his soldiers inflicted on prisoners until the day he died...

Jeff (aka Captain Chicken, leg-end in his own lunchbox).

"The party waits until it hears the pre-arranged signal - a scream - then 
decides it must be headed in the wrong direction and leaves Jackie to her 
fate..."

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 05:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Aug  2 04:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <99.2a2d475a.2a779a93@aol.com> <3D4A0109.D48E52E6@pobox.com> <005801c23a04$ec770b20$0112bd50@martinjd> <006401c23a0f$3ca9da00$7400a8c0@matt> <003201c23a14$66243100$7d03bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <00a601c23a14$be1ddbe0$7400a8c0@matt>

MJ Dougherty wrote:
>>> Huh? 1000 tons is an escort, or a frigate or something. But
>>> certainly not a fighter.
>>
>> The House rule I use to allow Fighters to be more effective is to let
>> Squadrons be treated as Batteries. ie, each fighter in the squadron
>> is the equivalent of a turret in a battery, with corresponding
>> increase in weapon USP, at the penalty of fewer salvos.
>
> Why do you want fighters to be more effective?

So that they can have an outside possibility of damaging Capital ships at
high TL

>> This represents the squadron acting in
>> a co-ordinated way to attack a single target, concentrating their
>> fire on one spot so as to overwhelm it. The capital ship firing on
>> the attacking squadron still has to target individual fighters. As
>> fighters are destroyed, recalculate the effective USP of the
>> squadrons 'battery'
>
> I see the concept, though you'd have to simulate C3 breakdowns, loss
> of cohesion etc

Sure, just as soon as we do the same for the escorting PD ships of the
defending Fleet...

HG is pretty abstract anyway, so this level of detail is unnecessary IMHO.
All I am doing is letting Fighters act like Turrets. If several turrets can
concentrate their fire to increase their effectiveness, why can't several
fighters?

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 05:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Brian Caball)
Date: Fri Aug  2 04:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com>
References: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com>
Message-ID: <02080212144000.29943@avlendris>

> How
> serious is the trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took place because
> the small island of England was not self-sufficient in either agricultural
> or industrial matters, but I don't think this situation will arise on many
> _planets_.  If trade is truly a major issue and lifeline then a massed herd
> of raiders will be crippling regardless of any other fleet elements
> employed.  But I think most planets with populations sufficient to have
> significant trade connections will have huge internal capacites to produce
> what they need anyway, and huge reserves of whatever they have to import
> (consider our Strategic Oil Reserve).  

If planets are so self sufficient, then why does TNE describe planets failing 
because they were cut off from interstellar trade?

-Brian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 05:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 04:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com>
Message-ID: <004c01c23a1c$26d3b860$7d03bd50@martinjd>

>
> A good point worthy of discussion.  I have commerce raiders, but I
envision
> them as travelling in a single mass, outrunning and dodging attempts by
> serious fleet elements to pursue them (unless, of course, the raiders
blunder
> into them).  Small patrols and escorts are never going to be able to deal
> with such a herd, while major patrols and escorts deployed everywhere will
> seriously impact the size of the remaining core fleet.

If you spread out a mix of powerful and less powerful commerce raiders,
you'll pull more fleet assets away. That's half the point.


>How serious is the
> trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took place because the small
island
> of England was not self-sufficient in either agricultural or industrial
> matters, but I don't think this situation will arise on many _planets_.

It'll impact revenue, which hurts over time. More importantly, it hurts
civilian morale and causes demands for proteciton. And you can damage the
logistics train - if the enemy is missile-heavy, he has to get them to the
battle area...

>If
> trade is truly a major issue and lifeline then a massed herd of raiders
will
> be crippling regardless of any other fleet elements employed.

Until it inevitably gets squashed. Dispersed raiding works better, other
than for targeted strikes, say on a critical system to massacre the
concentration of merhcant shipping there.

>But I think
> most planets with populations sufficient to have significant trade
> connections will have huge internal capacites to produce what they need
> anyway, and huge reserves of whatever they have to import (consider our
> Strategic Oil Reserve).  I see raiders as nothing more than annoyance
attacks
> -- they can't lay seiges, they can't do major battles, and they can't stay
in
> any area too long or some task force will find them and kick their ass --
> that can't be instantly responded to in an adequate manner.  You can't be
> strong everywhere, and if you try you'll be rolled up.  Further, if your
> opponent takes that tonnage that you devoted to patrols and escorts and
uses
> it to build a major fleet element instead, that element will be able to
> stroll through the isolated patrols and escorts like a bull in a china
shop,
> wasting the tonnage you devoted to them.

Assuming he's rich enough to afford a fleet like that. Guerre de Course has
always been the weaker nation's option.

>
>  >> If you "cover all the bases" with warm bodies but have to flee every
>  >> time the heavyweight enemy shows up then what good is that?  There is
no
>  >> substitute for victory, and to get that victory you need the
heavyweights
> and
>  >> you need more of them than your enemy.
>  >
>  >You need greater concentration of force at the critical point. That can
be
>  >done with less ships, better handled and supported.
>
> I don't think you can get "greater concentration of force" with "less
ships".

I have 6 ships, you have 12. I draw 8 of your ships away with a feint, and
gain local superiority. You sent them all? Great. I smash your base. You
sent none? Well, if my recon is up to it I'll know. Next time I just smash
something elsewhere , maybe with pairs of my ships, while you sit tight and
wait for the big clash at JUtland.

>  All other things being equal, if 1/3 of your fleet runs into 2/3 of the
> enemy fleet then you're gonna get smooshed.  Then all your patrols and
> escorts won't matter.

Unless my ships are better/more survivable/able to break off after drawing
you into a predcitable position, so others of my ships can smash stuff
elsewhere.


>
>  >That said, victory is not necessarily gained by defeating the enemy
battle
>  >fleet. If you do that, but he scrubs your industrial worlds with
planetary
>  >raider ships, or kills your economy with commerce raiders, then you may
not
>  >have won at all.
>
> True.  But several points.  1)  If all he has left is raiders, then you'll
> march into _his_ territory with some surviving unopposed capital ships
while
> sending the rest after the raiders, who will be forced to continuously
flee
> with no refuge.

Yes, though you'll have to fight his system defense monitors and meson guns
sites while his raiders play hell with your logistics and maul damaged ships
headed home for repair.

2)  Major industrial worlds will have their own local
> defense forces, and no raider fleet I can imagine will be able to take on
an
> AX (population A, tech (game tech level)) world's local defense force, so
the
> majority of your population should be safe.

Yes. But your logistics and trade may not be. And there is still room for
deception and assymetric attack.

3)  How would you stop this
> anyway?  A large raider force is not expensive to build, but if you try to
> put anti-raider forces sufficient to engage such raiders at every possible
> point they may attack then you won't have much left on your front lines,
and
> the enemy will wind up attacking your industrial worlds not with raiders
but
> with capital ships.

That was my point. Chasing down raiders requires capable ships and many of
them. Your all-dreadnought fleet can't cover enough ground to do it. You
need cruisers and second-line battleships (the Type R battleships did a lot
of Atlantic escort work, and were a powerful deterrernt to surface raiders,
even though they were sometimes outclassed). Point is, you need adequate
low-end escorts and commerce proteciton ships, else your powerful fleet ends
up guarding nothing, with no logistics support top keep it in being.

4)  As for commerce interdiction it will be unpopular
> with the folks, but in my opinion not militarily significant.

Military operations have two axis of atack - they can attack the Means of
the enemy to make war, or the Will to do so. Commerce raiding is a direct
attack on the Will (unhappy people yelling for peace) and an indirect one on
the Means (logistics). It works.

>
>  >> If by patrol you mean scouts, then yes.  But if you mean general
policing
>  >> then I'd think that would be a local police matter and not a fleet
matter.
>  >
>  >I mean patrol ships to defeat piracy, commerce raiding and smuggling,
>
> That's all local.  If a system is really strapped, I'd send some fleet
> escorts to help out.

You have enough of those? RW experience has shown that there are NEVER
enough, and I seem to remember you quoting a very low percentage devoted to
escorts.

>War is not always imminent, after all.  Too, while the
> Imperium cares about some weapons, why should it care about the smuggling
of
> anything else?  "Admiral!  Smugglers are transporting illegal cargos of
> cigarettes to Zivije!"  "Ensign, go there immediately.  Buy me a few
packs."

These activities undermine the commerce of the Imperium, and its ovbserved
rule of law. Dangerous.

>
>  >to
>  >catch enemy intelligence ships and recon vessels
>
> I'd use scouts to watch them, and try to catch them on the way out -- if I
> thought they had relevant information.  What are they going to say?
"There's
> a planet here!"?  "There's some sort of secret facility over here!"?
"There
> were no ships in this system two months ago!"?  But frankly, a traitor
> civilian in a free trader or a seeker would be impossible to detect, and
> would provide just as much information.

Your scouts can be killed by armed recon frigates, or lost in Jump. You
cannot guarantee catching even some recon recon ships. A Jump-6 recon
frigate can bring timely information to a raider squadron on escort and
patrol deployments. Yes, there is a comm lag and thus plenty of fog. But
it's better than nothing. Free Trader traitors might also be useful, but
slower.

>
>  >to prevent the stockpiling of forward supply bases
>
> Scouts would see the incoming traffic, and the fleet would send some
elements
> to check it out.
>
>  >to gain intelligence
>
> Scouts again.

Can your scout ships movve fast enough? Are they survivable enough, and wll
armed to deal with immeduiate threats as they flee? If they are, then
they're naval units.


>
>  >to show the flag and keep systems in line....
>
> I'd use the regular fleet to do that.  "Join the Navy and see the world!"

So your dreadnoughts tour en masse, or independently? You're dispersing your
capital ships?

>
> It's getting late.  I hope I've said something useful with a minimum of
> "noise".

Let's turn this on its head. Can you explain how this model of yours
works...? How do you plan to fight a war with it?










> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 05:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 04:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <99.2a2d475a.2a779a93@aol.com> <3D4A0109.D48E52E6@pobox.com> <005801c23a04$ec770b20$0112bd50@martinjd> <006401c23a0f$3ca9da00$7400a8c0@matt> <003201c23a14$66243100$7d03bd50@martinjd> <00a601c23a14$be1ddbe0$7400a8c0@matt>
Message-ID: <005901c23a1d$16700d60$7d03bd50@martinjd>

> > Why do you want fighters to be more effective?
>
> So that they can have an outside possibility of damaging Capital ships at
> high TL

And again, why do you want this? Barring me swallowing some and suffering
some strange kind of poisoning, no amount of flies can beat me in a straight
fight. My feeling is that fightrers are good for screening and keeping
merchies in line. Big ships are for killing big ships.

> >
> > I see the concept, though you'd have to simulate C3 breakdowns, loss
> > of cohesion etc
>
> Sure, just as soon as we do the same for the escorting PD ships of the
> defending Fleet...

Indeed, though coordinaitng a useful fighter attack requires external comms.
Escorts can operate on internal comms (hard to jam) and even independently,
can be useful if the captains are smart. Uncoordinated fighters are just as
big mess.

>
> HG is pretty abstract anyway, so this level of detail is unnecessary IMHO.
> All I am doing is letting Fighters act like Turrets. If several turrets
can
> concentrate their fire to increase their effectiveness, why can't several
> fighters?

Becuase turrets are controlled with internal comms, hardwired through the
ship, while ifghters have to talk externally and are subject to jamming or
other problems. And becuase you don't get a battery of turrests scattering
due to evasion and having to reform.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <a6.29f91dee.2a7a2a7a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B1E74.16706.D41575@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 2:08, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> This tactic is presented not as a desperation move, but an ordinary
> one to be implemented if said navy can put up with it.  To which I
> responded that no fighter pilot community would tolerate it.  Even
> if the attacking squadron is originally 1000, after two capital
> ships they'll be combat ineffective using this tactic, and there
> will be NO volunteers to replace them until the tactic is discarded. 

That's contrary to history - in WWII many units in all combatants 
armies took those sorts of casualties, and New Zealand, the USA, 
Britain and the USSR (and probably others) all continued to have people 
volunteering throughout the war.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:07:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:07:50 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <91.20daf914.2a7a2267@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B1E74.16846.D4152F@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 1:34, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
 
> Will they come apart if they take 98% casualties between breakfast and lunch? 
>  That is on a level with the original post that started this discussion.

No it wasn't, because the original post didn't specify a proportion, 
merely an absolute quantity.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:08:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:08:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Kit (as our British friends say)
In-Reply-To: <d4.1b055146.2a7a030a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B1E74.26826.D414E9@localhost>

On 31 Jul 2002 at 23:20, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> >In boot camp, when I received my first pay statement (just a receipt, we
> >didn't get any actual checks until graduation) I was shocked to find out
> >that I was actually in the hole to Uncle Sam. I had no idea that every bit
> >of equipment (except loaners like web gear, canteens, and weapons) came out
> >of our own pockets.
> 
> One of my favorite bits of reading is a papyrus detailing the pay record of a 
> Roman soldier in Egypt ca. 250 AD There are deductions for uniform and 
> equipment, mandatory deposit to the unit savings bank, contributions to the 
> burial fund (insurance) and the unit Saturnalia feast (held around the same 
> time as Christmas), and stoppages to pay for a wine bar demolished in the 
> course of a brawl. Every soldier I have ever shown it to marvels at the line 
> on the bottom:
> 
> "Copy 2 of 3, for unit archives"

Doesn't surprise me in the slightest. Those old Sumerian clay tablets 
are all (or almost all) warehousing records and accounts, and the 
Mykenean writing recovered from their palaces is all the same.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:09:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:09:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com>
References: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020802220750.A12763@freeman.little-possums.net>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> How serious is the trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took
> place because the small island of England was not self-sufficient in
> either agricultural or industrial matters, but I don't think this
> situation will arise on many _planets_.

Not for the planets of any meaningful military capacity, anyway.  99%
of the production of the Imperium comes from 10% of the planets.  The
combined trade of those planets with every other planet (including
each other) is about 0.2% of their combined economies.  That means
that whatever they import can't be worth much.

Minor backwaters on "major" trade routes might be crippled.  That
might have political effect on the state as a whole, but no direct
economic or military effect.

The trade situation in the Imperium is *drastically* unlike that
between any group of nations on Earth.  Trade between nations on Earth
is a significant fraction of total economic activity, I would guess
roughly 30-40% based on data from the CIA factbook.  In the Imperium,
trade is less than 0.4%.  If you could disrupt *all* of it, it would
probably have less effect than capturing or destroying the productive
capability of a single hi-pop world.


In short, I agree.  England was hundreds of times more dependent upon
trade than are any of the important planets in Traveller.
Furthermore, raiding ships in Traveller have to contend with system
defences.  There are no mid-ocean battles in Traveller; you're always
fighting in someone's backyard.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:11:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:11:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <8d.1bfa1383.2a7a4253@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B1F74.9458.D7FBED@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 3:50, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>  >> He will shuck and jive, pretend equipment failures, or run.  He most
>  >> certainly won't volunteer for that sort of duty again.
>  >
>  >That's a pretty low opinion of a fellow officer
> 
> A fellow officer, he says!  They wouldn't be officers, they'd be cannon 
> fodder.  And they'd know it.

Interesting that you see figther pilots as having the state of non-
cannon fodder as their natural state, and that they'd be scarce 
resources. I can't see them as being any more or less expendable than 
any other ship crew, as all crew positions that are combat relevant are 
skilled. I also find your position interesting in that it assumes that 
highly skilled people are 'more cautious' (to be polite) than those 
that are supposedly less highly trained/skilled (like grunts).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] [OT] Starship Troopers (was: Comic Book Battles)
In-Reply-To: <B9681E36.3499%shadowjack@skyhighway.com>
Message-ID: <20802.043414.9M3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
>> Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 17:25:19
>
>> Virginia Heinlein agreed to a different script, and was shafted.  She told
>> the SF community that she came close to suing the studio until it was made
>> clear that she would lose.  She appeared on screen at a WorldCon and
>> apologized to the assembled fans for not handling the property better..
>> then set off a near riot by casully mentioning that the same mistakes will
>> not be made with the "Stranger in a Strange Land" movie...
>
> I'm trying to imagine that as a movie, and just can't quite get it through
> my head. Are we talking Hollywood here? "Stranger in a Strange Land"?
> Grokking and all that?

Think "sex and naked chicks". :-|
 
> Gee, who'll they get for "Stranger"?

The first report I recall regarding someone tryng to get backers was
back in 1970...

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:14:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:14:39 2002
Subject: [TML] [OT] Starship Troopers (was: Comic Book Battles)
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEDJEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20802.043609.9X7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Virginia Heinlein agreed to a different script, and was shafted.  She told
>> the SF community that she came close to suing the studio until it was made
>> clear that she would lose.  She appeared on screen at a WorldCon and
>> apologized to the assembled fans for not handling the property better..
>> then set off a near riot by casully mentioning that the same mistakes will
>> not be made with the "Stranger in a Strange Land" movie...
>
> I wonder if she sold all rights or not. In other words could a decent
> filmmaker take another crack at ST in a few years or not?

Not "she". The movie rights were likely sold *decades* ago.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:16:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:16:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <02080212144000.29943@avlendris>
References: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com> <02080212144000.29943@avlendris>
Message-ID: <20020802221422.B12763@freeman.little-possums.net>

Brian Caball wrote:
> If planets are so self sufficient, then why does TNE describe
> planets failing because they were cut off from interstellar trade?

If external trade is so essential to the continued survival of
planets, why is it worth less than 0.4% of the economy?  These two
facts need to be reconciled before any answer can be attempted.

Personally, my opinion is that TNE needed an apocalypse and lack of
trade was just an excuse.  Virus infecting the control systems of high
tech worlds down all the way down to the level of toasters clearly
wasn't enough.  Probably just my personal dislike for post-disaster
settings showing, though.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <005201c23944$b5f3ac40$6e09bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3D4B24F2.20758.ED70D3@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 11:17, MJ Dougherty wrote:

> IE Units will NOT enter routine combat situations where they know
> they will be massacred. 

I think it depends a lot on the chances of success and the value the 
soldier (or pilots, or whatevers) place on that success. If the plan 
calls for the certain death of a good proportion of a unit for a low 
chance of success for an unimportant objective there'll be problems. 
If, OTOH the plan is for several hundred fighters to attack a 
battleship and it's guaranteed that the BB will die for the cost of a 
hundred fighters I think you'd have plenty of volunteers as long as 
there was some benefit in killing that BB (ie it didn't have so many 
friends that your side just couldn't kill them all, etc.)


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:34:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:34:41 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <m3ptx2twnf.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <e6.2be0ca41.2a7a3051@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B24F2.27371.ED703D@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 9:40, Robert Uhl wrote:

> I'll say again: it depends on the size of the wave.  How large were
> the British waves in WWII when 100-200 a night were lost?

Those losses were from the big '1000 bomber' raids. Smaller raids lost 
less aircraft in absolute terms, but often more as a percentage.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:35:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:35:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Kit (as our British friends say)
In-Reply-To: <02080113001703.22132@avlendris>
References: <20020801115445.5089.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B24F2.24886.ED6FF7@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 13:00, Brian Caball wrote:

> 
> > > "Copy 2 of 3, for unit archives"
> >   OMG!!!!! The, the, the......[sigh]......
> 
> This seems to be flying right over my head... is that what the modern 
> equivalents also say or something?

Just about every piece of paper in the military has three or four 
copies of it made. One for the recipient, one for the issuing body's 
archives and one for the parent body's records, plus for many things 
one for military intelligence. The MI's copies of battalion paperwork 
used to be pink, and we got one of just about everything. Right handy 
for working out what was going to happen next - when battalion suddenly 
gets a whole lot of tropical gear you know you're not going to be going 
to Antarctica (in theory anyway).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:37:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:37:04 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <007201c23945$6b27eae0$6e09bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3D4B24F2.5802.ED708D@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 11:22, MJ Dougherty wrote:

> 
> > >Try the loss rates for some of the RAF's 1000 bomber night attacks,
> >  >then. Over 100 bombers in a night wasn't exceptional (IIRC some were
> >  >near the 200 mark) and while that rate was unsustainable it wasn't for
> >  >lack of volunteers, but because aircraft take time to make and crews
> >  >take time to train.
> >
> > Imminent threats to national survival, of course, change casualty rate
> > acceptance.  But the original subject was hundreds of fighter pilots for
> the
> > one or two lucky shots to kill a capital ship as a standard by-the-book
> > tactic.  Never happen.
> 
> Besides, bomber crews did so many missions and then OUT. Your odds of
> getting killed on any one of those missions were relatively small, but they
> stacked up. However, you *knew* you'd probably get out before your number
> came up. Whether it was true or not is another matter, but you knew.... if
> the odds had been 50% chance of death per mission, and you'll keep on being
> sent in again and again, well...

Well the rates for night flights over Germany were up around the 10%+ 
mark for some nights, and were almost never under 5%. I forget how many 
missions made a tour in the RAF, but it was enough that not finshing a 
tour was quite normal. Despite this many crewmen signed up for tour 
after tour until they were shot down or broke under the stress.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:37:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff D. Greenly)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:37:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #859 - 22 msgs
Message-ID: <sd4a444e.089@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>

>Message: 2
>From: Flykiller@aol.com 
>Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 03:11:16 EDT
>Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
>To: tml@travellercentral.com 
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com 
>
>>Would a world that has 80% of its surface covered by water, a dense
>>nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, and one moon that is large enough to
exert a
>>tidal effect tend to be more or less climatically active? Assume
>>moderate (terran-normal) vulcanism and a fairly non-polluting early
TL
>>aqua/agricultural society. Also assume standard polar ice caps and
>>rotation around 20 deg. off the plane of the ecliptic. I'll welcome
any
>>and all comments...
>
>I've often wondered along those lines.  If you look at our system the
size 2 
>moon is at the very limit (book 6) of its possible orbit, yet when
generating 
>traveller systems it is quite possible to have much larger moons
orbiting 
>much closer to their world.  The tides would be huge.  I would imagine
there 
>would be very few costal cities throughout most systems, because
they'd be 
>flooded by 50 foot tides.
>
>As I understand it weather is caused mostly by heat transfer across a

>planet's surface.  Since your world has a 20 degree axial tilt then I
would 
>think its weather would be about comparable to Terra's.  If denser
atmosphere 
>holds more heat then it should be more active.

Mr. Fly,

Thanks for replying... I haven't generated all of the other system
details, so I have a few variables still missing. The planet that I am
currently working on, Knorbes (Regina/SM), is a tough world to do
because it's geography is very Terran, it's rich, agricultural, and has
80 million-plus people governed by a civil serrvice bureaucracy, and is
at tech level 2, which isn't easy to reconcile. The big hangup for me is
(always) the physical science. You see, I spent most of my time in the
Liberal Arts when I was in school, and it did me an irrepairable brain
injury. Traveller is therapy for me now. Anyway, it sounds to me like
you are on the right track. The questions I have are, does a dense
atmosphere hold more energy? Wouldn't it take that much more energy to
"move" a dense atmosphere into weather changes? Would the world's oceans
act as thermal "batteries", and if so, how would they affect the
weather? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the matter...

Jeff

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:38:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:38:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <F228Wv2vyWb6cxHKx7000010140@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B2568.16012.EF3EB3@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 15:57, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

> 
>      "...although not as bad as the Swordfish(1)."
> 
> 
> Ladies and Gentlemen,
> 
>      Please excuse me, I forgot to add the footnote.
> 
> 
> (1) - The Swordfishs' very obs0lescence may have actually helped it survive 
> in battle.  A most likely apophrycal story from the Bismarck saga has the 
> German AA fire missing the attacking Swordfish because the aircraft were 
> moving too SLOW, the AA crews led their targets by too much.  Swordfish made 
> their torpedo runs at ~90 mph and weather conditions could drop that speed 
> even further.
>      The Swordfish may been viwed as a joke by other navies, it still got 
> the job done at Taranto and with the Bismarck however.

I'm pretty sure that their slow speed wasn't a factor in the Bismark 
action, but it was a factor in the 'Channel Dash' (as was piss poor 
communications on the British side).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <2d16412cfe49.2cfe492d1641@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <3D4B26E5.29810.F51057@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 20:20, john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:

> OTOH, the Stringbag was never sent into battle against carrier-based 
> fighters.  The TBD pilots at Midway, meanwhile, had to try to survive 
> without fighter cover against the A6M Zero.  Hardly a fair contest (of 
> course, any military leader who tries to fight war _fairly_ isn't doing 
> the job correctly).

However Swordfish did go up against serious air-cover during the 
'Channel Dash' by Scharnhost and Gneisenau and while their losses 
weren't insignificant they weren't as high as they might have been, 
largely because they were flying so slowly that the German fighters 
couldn't line up and get decent firing positions on them. The Beauforts 
which were somewhat faster and had a (slightly) better defensive 
armament took quite a hammering, IIRC.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Character Conversions
Message-ID: <20020802124732.56CF54505@mo130uhou.palm.net>



David Smart <jurrubin@earthlink.net> wrote:
[snip]
> I've just finished converting a Zho generated from the CT 
>Zho supplement into GT and he's practically god-like (rolled incredibly well 
>back in '87 for psionics). 
[snip] 
>Then again, I've played this guy through 5 long-term campaigns. Great for solo 
>runs but a bit overpowering with other, more youthful characters. 

Sounds like a great reoccuring villian.

----------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere. 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CDE@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <3D4B28F8.948.FD2916@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 16:42, Hurrel, Brian wrote:

> "No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy."
> 
> I'm paraphrasing, and can't remember who said this. Maybe Clausewitz(SP?).

Moltke, IIRC, but it's probably about as old as warfare itself.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 07:16:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Fri Aug  2 06:16:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020802092329.00a31a10@mail.buffnet.net>

Has anyone noted the set up with regards to the number of starports that 
can produce starships versus those that can only builld system ships?  And 
to make matters worse, there aren't that many high tech star ports around


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 07:17:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Marsh)
Date: Fri Aug  2 06:17:06 2002
Subject: [TML] re: juries
Message-ID: <F91hrbvkBs9XMgFNhPt000249a8@hotmail.com>

I have served on a number of juries here in the good 'ol USA (1 civil, 2 
criminal) and in general have always been impressed by how careful and 
deliberate people have been in trying to be fair as well as seek justice 
within the constraints of the case as it is given. I have always come out of 
the process feeling much better about the US jury system. I was on one drug 
case where we just KNEW the guy was guilty but the state failed to prove the 
case beyond a reasonable doubt so we could not find him guilty. The cops 
just didn't get the goods on him.


>From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>To: "Traveller-Digest" <tml@travellercentral.com>
>Subject: [TML] re:  juries
>Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 15:53:12 -0700
>
> >From: Flykiller@aol.com
>
>someone wrote:
> >Amateur juries
> >seem to me to be ill equipped to handle many kinds of cases.
>
>Flykiller@aol.com replied:
> >True.  And irrelevant to why they exist.  Juries aren't meant to be
> >professional, quite the opposite.  Juries are meant to be a last and 
>final
> >check and balance against governmental power over individual citizens.  
>The
> >government can't put anyone in jail unless they can get a bunch of 
>amateur
> >citizens to agree.  It's preferable to the alternative.
>
>If you can't explain your case so that twelve ordinary people understand 
>it,
>then you don't understand your case adequately.
>
>--Glenn
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml




_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 07:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  2 06:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <200208021317.LXD04141@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>
>In short, I agree.  England was hundreds of times more 
>dependent upon trade than are any of the important planets 
>in Traveller.
>Furthermore, raiding ships in Traveller have to contend with 
>system defences.  There are no mid-ocean battles in 
>Traveller; you're always fighting in someone's backyard.

IMHO, in major systems that are hi-pop, hi-tech, with large 
industrial bases, the critical resources are on more than 
just one planet - there are probably mining bases all over 
the system - the gas giants must be defended to keep enemy 
ships from refuelling - and for economical reasons, there may 
be more than one high port.

A large system like this would have to maintain a 
considerable number of ships in order to defend these assets, 
and protect shipping between these points.  Convoys may be 
forced to use jump ships to do intrasystem jumps to avoid 
raiders, and ships inbound/outbound from the system would 
have to jump at the 100D limit without fail after being 
escorted the entire distance to and from the port.

In essence, laying siege to such a system might first mean 
whittling down the system defense boats and local fighters 
with fighter raids and light commerce raiders.  You might, 
after a time, be left only with your larger monitors, port 
defenses, and planetary defense sites.  Ships as small as 
fighters may also lay mines on courses to sweep through 
traffic areas.  I would bet that for such an advanced system, 
while it might well be able to subsist on its own, it won't 
profit as much, especially if it engages in trade with a 
nearby world of similar stature.  It would even affect local 
trade, and local merchant shipping would be affected, even if 
losses were light.

A continuous series of light hit and run raids would force 
diversion of assets you would ordinarily use elsewhere, or 
force the construction and maintenance of substantial non-
jump forces.  If you chose to ignore the raiding on the idea 
that it doesn't affect your economy too much, the locals who 
live there might be of another opinion.  It would also invite 
a full scale assault after a time.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 08:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Fri Aug  2 07:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Warships
References: <b4.f32c32a.2a76d569@aol.com> <3D487967.3734.F911EB@localhost>
Message-ID: <043b01c23a2f$bc26f9a0$1f9e15ac@warrior>

> Firstly, Planets are big, have vast reserves of power, and can have have
an
> effective armarment far beyond that of even the largest fleet. Secondly,
> working around a planet is the space equivlent of naval "confined waters".
> Maneuver is severely restricted and ranges are short. These two things
> mean that interface combat around a well defended world will be brutal and
> any vessel not specifically designed for it will become a glowing hulk
very
> quickly. Of course the problem is that such vessels have limited
> usefulness outside their designed role and virtually none in peacetime.
>

This brings up one of my revelations about strategic combat in traveller.
After realizing this, it occurred to the that strategic warfare functions a
lot like strategic warfare in medieval of renaissance times.  I.E. where
defense is stronger than offense.  Medieval or Renaissance armies almost
never fought battles.  Battles are dicey affairs where things can go either
way.  Nobody wants that.  Mostly the armies would lay siege to castles and
fortresses, taking them slowly by starvation or rarely, quickly by storm.

I imagine that to large insteller states at war with one and other in
Traveller would operate the same way.  Nobody wants to get into a pitched
fleet battle unless he or she has a clear and obvious advantage.  Most of
the time the fleets jump in system, establish a blockade, and threaten drop
big ass rocks on a world to try to arrange a surrender.  If the world
doesn't surrender, you either bombard/assault (I.e. storm) or blockade and
wait them out (I.e. starve).


later
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 08:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Aug  2 07:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Blowing holes in Japan (was " Re Patton")
Message-ID: <F2374oW3zJzsGOJZ6Fz00024494@hotmail.com>

From: "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com>

     "[1]IIRC, Emporer Hirohito - who continued to see *absolutely nothing 
wrong* in the abuses his soldiers inflicted on prisoners until the day he 
died..."


Mr. Rowse,

     The behavior of the Japanese military in WW2 is one of the least 
studied aspects of that conflict.  During Japan's rise to first a regional, 
then a hemispheric power, her armed forces were consistently praised by 
observers for their model behavior.  Both the IJA and IJN recieved this 
praise during the Sino-Japanese and Russo-Japanese wars and during WW1.
     When they began to invade and occupy China proper in the early 30's, 
the wheels seemed to come off however.  Japanese troops were soon notorious 
for their behavior.  None of their actions needs repeating here, but they 
equalled, if not exceeded, those of the Nazis for ferocity, if not 
organization.
     Still, there were isolated examples of Japanese units behaving as their 
fathers and grandfathers may have.  During the Leyte Gulf brawl, various USN 
DDs and DEs sacrificed themselves so that the CVEs of Taffy 3 could flee 
from the BBs and CAs of the IJN's Central Force.  The crew of one CE, still 
clinging to the wreckage of their ship, reported that the crew of an IJN CA 
passing by MANNED THE RAILS and saluted them.  However, the crew of another 
sunken CE was sprayed with MG and pom-pom fire as an IJN warship passed.
     IMHO, Hirohito should have mounted the scaffold ahead of Tojo.  He was 
intimately involved in the planning and operation of both the China and 
Pacific wars.  If SCAP needed the stability an emperor brought to Japan, 
then an infant, with a regent, should have been installed on the throne.(1)
     One fact that people hashing out the 1945 A-bomb decision tend to 
forget is that the US was reading most of Japan's diplomatic and political 
dispatches in real time.  The US knew in August of '45 that the Imperial War 
Cabinet was still adament about continuing the war and was taking 
precautions to do just that.  They still had 5 million men in uniform in on 
the Asian mainland and were beginning to shift them to the home islands to 
meet Operations Cornet and Olympic.
     Even after the SECOND use of the bomb, at Nagasaki, the Imperial War 
Cabinet was deadlocked on the question to surrender.  Hirohito had to cast 
the tie-breaking vote, only the second time in modern Imperial Japanese that 
the emperor had had to vote at all.(2)
     Once Hirohito's surrender speech had been recorded for broadcast, a 
cabal of army officers still came within a whisker of seizing and destroying 
that record.
     An invasion of the Home Islands may not have resulted in the one 
million Allied casulties bandied about, but it still would have been costly. 
  Occupation would have been costly still.  The Japanese, unlike the Nazis, 
had made real plans and provisions for a post-surrender terrorist/resistance 
campaign.
     An Allied invasion would have also included the USSR.  There could have 
been a Tokyo wall to match the one in Berlin.  Today, Japan could be 
struggling to assimilate and rebuild Hokkaido and the northern half of 
Honshu, just as the Germans are still trying to deal with the eastern 
portions of their recently reunited nation.
     Also, an Allied/USSR invasion in 1945 would mean that the entire Korean 
penninsular would now be under the control of the freaks in Pyongyang.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

(1) The Allies had the "recent" (1919) example of Imperial Germany in their 
minds.  An infant grandson of Kaiser Bill installed with a regent may have 
helped the post-WW1 governments of Germany with their problems of internal 
credibility.

(2) The only other time the Emperor had voted, IIRC, was to break the tie 
for the adoption of the Imperial Constitution during the Meiji era.

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 08:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Maksim-Smelchak)
Date: Fri Aug  2 07:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"
In-Reply-To: <151.11ceca62.2a7b936d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPIEEGEDAA.max200@lanset.com>

>>> "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!" >>>

Under the rules of war, we've been discussing, if an enemy intentionally
builds fortifications or other military structures among a civilian
populance, then that enemy becomes rssponsible for the safety of those
aforementioned civilians. If those civilians are actively and willfully
supporting the enemy, then they are no longer considered noncombatants. So,
it IS Al Quaida's fault and responsibility if the US intentionally seeks to
bomb a legitimate military target that Al Qaida has hidden behind a human
shield.

Like someone mentioned earlier, barbarians (or terrorists in our case)
follow no rules, regulations, or niceties. However, we still follow those
rules in the hopes that the enemy might eventually see that war can become a
little less horrible (or barbaric) if we avoid the very worst that war can
bring (biological weapons, chemical weapons, rapine, etc.).

I don't blame the Israelis, the US, India, or any other nation if they incur
civilian casualties to destroy enemies who cravenly use the populations that
they claim their violence advocates as human shields.

On another point, I wouldn't support the dehumanization of another people,
but I also don't support covering up inhuman acts of an enemy for
"humanistic reasons" such as the media mostly forgetting to report on
Palestinian celebrations every time innocent babies and women are killed by
terrorist bombs in the US, Israel, India, or elsewhere. Granted that the
Palestinian Arab thugs threaten reporters with their lives and confiscate
media materials, but there is an element of will involved with reporters who
are willing to risk their lives to enter mostly lawless areas, but aren't
willing to sends their reports back to their publication headquarters.

There are a lot of ideas here to throw at characters in a Traveller
campaign!

Cheers,
Maksim-Smelchak.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Flykiller@aol.com
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 12:49 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Patton

 >The Germans, and
 >particularly the Japanese were horribly dehumanized.  We made our enemies
 >into monsters so then it was OK to exterminate them.

Seems to be part of the human condition.  Not only is the enemy an inhuman
monster and responsible for any and all evil, _we_ are pure as the
wind-driven snow in any and all circumstances. "It's Al Qaida's fault we
bombed a wedding party!"



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 08:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Fri Aug  2 07:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <20020802101235.98a3bb14da2249719a2c69a0b3078a17.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>> (1) - The Swordfishs' very obs0lescence may have actually helped it survive 
>> in battle.  A most likely apophrycal story from the Bismarck saga has the 
>> German AA fire missing the attacking Swordfish because the aircraft were 
>> moving too SLOW, the AA crews led their targets by too much.  Swordfish made 
>> their torpedo runs at ~90 mph and weather conditions could drop that speed 
>> even further.
>>      The Swordfish may been viwed as a joke by other navies, it still got 
>> the job done at Taranto and with the Bismarck however.
>
>I'm pretty sure that their slow speed wasn't a factor in the Bismark 
>action, but it was a factor in the 'Channel Dash' (as was piss poor 
>communications on the British side).

Were they?  I do not remember any FAA torpedo squadrons involved, and the
only torpedo squadron the RAF's Coastal Command had in England (The rest
were in the Med.) had Beauforts, if I remember correctly.

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

 My Sale List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
 My Want List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 09:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Aug  2 08:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Japan, Al Quaida et al
In-Reply-To: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPIEEGEDAA.max200@lanset.com>
References: <151.11ceca62.2a7b936d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B4813.21851.61BFC53@localhost>

Okay, may I please ask people to remember that the TML contains a wide 
variety of people with vastly differing views on a huge range of subjects and 
IMHO that this is not the place to rehash our world's nasty past (or 
present). I think discussing the Imperial Rules of War is great, I think 
discussing and laying blame for the tragedies of the real world is not. I 
believe we have a list (TML-chat) for that purpose.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 09:05:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Fri Aug  2 08:05:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <20020802102615.30aca70d97e74ef18326726c229541ca.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>On 1 Aug 2002 at 20:20, john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:
>
>> OTOH, the Stringbag was never sent into battle against carrier-based 
>> fighters.  The TBD pilots at Midway, meanwhile, had to try to survive 
>> without fighter cover against the A6M Zero.  Hardly a fair contest (of 
>> course, any military leader who tries to fight war _fairly_ isn't doing 
>> the job correctly).
>
>However Swordfish did go up against serious air-cover during the 
>'Channel Dash' by Scharnhost and Gneisenau and while their losses 
>weren't insignificant they weren't as high as they might have been, 
>largely because they were flying so slowly that the German fighters 
>couldn't line up and get decent firing positions on them. The Beauforts 
>which were somewhat faster and had a (slightly) better defensive 
>armament took quite a hammering, IIRC.

Well, it would have greatly improved the British chances of attacking the
German ships if it did not take until just before the Germans were passing
the Straits of Dover to even know they were at sea.  At least then, the
Brits could have had time to assemble an all-out attack instead of send the
aircrafts in dribbles and drabs which allowed the Luftwaffe to kill them.
One of Adolf Galland's finer moments, providing air cover for the cruisers.

There is also an interesting story of how one of the Britsh destroyers that
had sailed to engage the German ships had to turn back for port with engine
trouble.  While she was heading back, the RAF pulled a case of mistaken
identity and attacked her, only to be chased away by a flight of German
Bf-109s who then protected the destoyer and provided top cover until they
ran low on fuel...without ever realizing who they were defending...

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

 My Sale List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
 My Want List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 09:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Aug  2 08:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <20020802101235.98a3bb14da2249719a2c69a0b3078a17.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <3D4B49A4.30448.6221A7B@localhost>

On 2 Aug 2002, at 10:14, Cheng Tseng wrote:

> Were they?  I do not remember any FAA torpedo squadrons involved, and the only
> torpedo squadron the RAF's Coastal Command had in England (The rest were in
> the Med.) had Beauforts, if I remember correctly.

#825 Sqd, Lt Cmdr Esmonde led six Swordfish against the Scharnhorst, 
Gneisenau and Prinz Eugen with their escorts and heavy fighter cover. All 
six were shot down and only by a miracle did 5 of the 18 crew survive. Lt 
Cmdr Esmonde received the FAA's first VC for the attack.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 09:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 08:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <200208021543.g72Fhlw12656@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
...
>Raider-carriers are an excellent idea. I wonder if escort carriers could

  You can upgrade a target to carry a SOTA 50-Dt FH in a 100 ton
bay used for cargo in peacetime.

>counter them. Or if they could carry enough fighters to scrub a decent light
>cruiser before it closed and killed the carrier. Or....

  Sadly, HG2 doesn't allow those sorts of complications, but
any of the hex-based Trav games make riders/carriers _much_ 
less attractive for precisely that reason.

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 10:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 09:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <11ad10118abc.118abc11ad10@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Date: Thursday, August 1, 2002 10:45 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Patton

> on 8/1/02 12:31 PM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:
> 
> > and kill his wife and children.  Don't torture him if you capture
> > him.  In fact, if you capture him he's no longer a threat, so don't
> > kill him at all.
> 
> More than that, if you treat your prisoners well, and the enemy 
> knows it,
> they may be more inclined to surrender.  Would the Iraqis have 
> surrenderedin droves if we were shooting them out of hand and 
> putting their heads on
> poles?  I don't think so.

I forget which historian pointed out that the two pieces of information 
that travel most swiftly through an army in combat are the quality of 
care in one's own hospitals and the way in which the enemy treats 
captured personnel.  Poor prospects in the first case tends to reduce an 
army's effectiveness (who want to risk wounds if a trip to the hospital 
is nearly a guaranteed death sentence?), while poor prospects in the 
latter case tends to increase an army's willingness to fight ("if 
they're going to kill me anyway, I may as well take some of them with 
me!").

Besides, "dead men tell no tales."  In other words, if we kill prisoners 
of war (especially if we kill enemy soldiers trying to surrender), I 
can't interrogate them. ;-)




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 10:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 09:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <13b8e513938c.13938c13b8e5@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
Date: Friday, August 2, 2002 2:08 am
Subject: Re: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships

<<snip>>
> 
> If Side A wins the battle, does this mean they attempt to 
> salvage some Side B ships?  Is there a nuclear scuttle option 
> for capital ships to prevent enemy use?  Or would Side A 
> plant nuclear demolition charges on the wrecks of Side B to 
> ensure that damaged ships are not recovered?

This is from memory, so I may be off slightly....

Well, there is the case of _Bard Endeavour_, an AHL-class fleet 
intruder, during the Solomani Rim War.  The Solomani initiated a 
boarding action to capture the disabled vessel, which was in an unstable 
orbit with inoperable maneuver drives (but a working jump drive).  The 
few survivors of _Bar Endeavour's_ crew managed a textbook example of 
how to resist boarding; the Solomani boarding party was unable to take 
engineering or the auxiliary bridge and eventually evacuated.  47 (IIRC) 
crewbeings rode _Bard Endeavour_ in a catastrophic reentry.

No scuttling charges, but a documented attempt to seize a disabled enemy 
ship.

> ________________
> "I am Weasel!"

"Hear me roar! ;-)"



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 10:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 09:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <3D4B1E74.16706.D41575@localhost>
References: <a6.29f91dee.2a7a2a7a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020802094028.36370018@pop.mindspring.com>

At 12:06 AM 8/3/2002 +1200, you wrote:
>On 1 Aug 2002 at 2:08, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
>
>> This tactic is presented not as a desperation move, but an ordinary
>> one to be implemented if said navy can put up with it.  To which I
>> responded that no fighter pilot community would tolerate it.  Even
>> if the attacking squadron is originally 1000, after two capital
>> ships they'll be combat ineffective using this tactic, and there
>> will be NO volunteers to replace them until the tactic is discarded. 
>
>That's contrary to history - in WWII many units in all combatants 
>armies took those sorts of casualties, and New Zealand, the USA, 
>Britain and the USSR (and probably others) all continued to have people 
>volunteering throughout the war.

See the lines to volunteer for the British Army after Dunkirk or the US
Navy after Pearl Harbor.

People never believe it will happen to them.  It's the other guy that will
die.  Even after two years of trench warfare, troops were *still* going
over the top in futile charges.

The US Army did studies in which they discovered that the longest that a
solider can stay in a combat zone is about 100 days.  After that, he falls
apart.  So the Army began rotating units to rest areas so they could
recharge a little and get roaring drunk and contract VD before going back
into the line.  It will be harder for the Imperium to do this, but I think
it would be a priority to establish some sort of safe zone for the troops.
-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Animals who are not penguins can only wish they were.
-Chicago reader, 10/15/82

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 10:50:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 09:50:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <3D4B1F74.9458.D7FBED@localhost>
References: <8d.1bfa1383.2a7a4253@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020802094239.36dff48c@pop.mindspring.com>

At 12:10 AM 8/3/2002 +1200, you wrote:
>On 1 Aug 2002 at 3:50, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
>
>>  >> He will shuck and jive, pretend equipment failures, or run.  He most
>>  >> certainly won't volunteer for that sort of duty again.
>>  >
>>  >That's a pretty low opinion of a fellow officer
>> 
>> A fellow officer, he says!  They wouldn't be officers, they'd be cannon 
>> fodder.  And they'd know it.
>
>Interesting that you see figther pilots as having the state of non-
>cannon fodder as their natural state, and that they'd be scarce 
>resources. I can't see them as being any more or less expendable than 
>any other ship crew, as all crew positions that are combat relevant are 
>skilled. I also find your position interesting in that it assumes that 
>highly skilled people are 'more cautious' (to be polite) than those 
>that are supposedly less highly trained/skilled (like grunts).

Hell, as a sniper I was considered to be a highly-skilled soldier (not
cannon-fodder) and was expected to do insane things that were extremely
dangerous and most often fatal.  Snipers are rarely taken prisoner.  Enemy
troops tend to kill them when they are caught.  Doesn't stop the flow of
volunteers.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 10:51:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 09:51:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller HIDING
In-Reply-To: <124.1460d565.2a7b535d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020802094449.364f9a92@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:15 PM 8/1/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>Yes, basking in verbally-asserted superiority is indeed much more pleasant 
>than risking actual defeat.  But of course indulging in this makes you a 
>coward.

Uncalled for.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 10:52:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 09:52:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <140bd3139f9e.139f9e140bd3@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: James Ramsay <quakers_united@yahoo.com.au>
Date: Friday, August 2, 2002 2:23 am
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller

> QUOTE
> This tactic is presented not as a desperation move,
> but an ordinary one to be implemented if said navy can
> put up with it.  To which I responded that 
> no fighter pilot community would tolerate it.  Even if
> the attacking squadron is originally 1000, after two
> capital ships they'll be combat ineffective 
> using this tactic, and there will be NO volunteers to
> replace them until the tactic 
> is discarded.
> END QUOTE
> 
> But wouldn't more people die if it was cap ship vs.
> cap ship?

<tongue-in-cheek>

Yes, but (assuming that Imperial Navy practice is similar to US Navy 
practice since the end of WW II) the fighter pilots are all officers and 
gentlemen, while many of the capital ship crewbeings are mere ratings.

</tongue-in-cheek>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Meduim Navies
Message-ID: <3D4AB9A9.6B6DB02@mail.cswnet.com>

Three years ago Ian Ferguson posted a wonderful little thing called
"Small
Navies". I liked the idea very much, since I tried doing a straight TCS
and 
discovered that it created massive navies. However, Ian's "Small Navies"
was
just to small for my taste. I wanted something that would look like the
Fifth Frontier War Game, but not as big as a straight TCS Campaign. So,
after some thought, I've ginned this up. I call it "Meduim Navies".

Items used:
Ian Fergusons' "Small Navies" post (for budget modifiers)
Adventure 5 Trillion Credit Squadron
Striker (for apportionment).

Step one:
Generate peacetime naval budget

peacetime naval budget: Cr50 per person
	xTCS peacetime government type modifier (1.3 for type 7)
	x1.5 for Rich Worlds
	x.5 for Poor Worlds
	x2 for Independant Worlds

Step two:
Apportion Initial Naval Budget

70% goes to planetary and colonial navies
30% goes to Imperial forces

Step three:
Initial fleet budget

Per Adventure 5, ten times peacetime budget.
Apportioned 80% current tech, 20% lower tech.

For worlds TL6-, allow for mercenaries to be hired
at half the budget that would have gone to the navy.
Using meduim navies, this will allow for allot of 
mercenary ships, which ought to be more plentiful
than they seem to be. I would be interested in knowing
exactly how large a ship the Imperuim would permit Mercs
to use, and what armament the 3I would allow them to have.
Thoughts anyone?

Alternately, you could allow for the Imperial Scout Service
to recieve this money. Whatever floats your boat.

Initial Fleets, Lunion subsector

Imperial Navy MCr 2,835,544.748

Wardn. MCr 55
Smoug MCr 14700
Rabwhar MCr115,500 [divided by 2 and converted to Starport A TL12
Credits,
MCr 26497.0589. This would give Rabwhar something in the neighborhood of
57-58 Type C Merc Cruisers].
Adabicci MCr 322,000
Zaibon MCr 148.75
Ianic MCr 5433.75 [divided by 2 and converted to Starport A TL12
Credits,
MCr 894.9705. Gives Ianic a Type C Merc Cruiser and a couple of
escorts].
Spirelle MCr 312,375
Derchon MCr 36,225
Lunion MCr 3,080,000
Shirine MCr 252
Harvoset MCr 14175
Perisephone MCr 28350
Capon MCr 17,850
Strouden MCr 3,465,000

Note that I do not divide planetary and subsector navies. Basically,
my attitude is if it jumps its part of the subsector navy, if it 
doesn't jump its part of the planetary navy/coacc. Population is
from Spinward Marches campaign [eg Arba pop 2 multiplier 6, 600 people].
Pop differs from BTC but makes things easier/more uniform for the tax
preparer. I've also done this for the Lanth subsector. The Imperial
Navy gets MCr 68673.42 there for its initial fleet. Not having a High
Pop worlds makes a big difference.

This does take a little bit of work to do, but once you get the initial
fleet budgets up, you can get ahold of Andrew Moffat Vallences' High 
Guard Shipyard and Trillion Credit Squadron programs and build navies
to your hearts content.

I've already started on this for Adabicci. Its not complete yet, but
here is a partial list, using some ships built by AMV and some built 
by me.

TL11 Adabicci Squadron
1xArkansas [Washington Class] Battleship [!!!] 
Note: Thanks for building this Andrew, I've gotten a big kick out of
it.
5xCasiopia Destroyers
10xDaring Missile Boats
1xGriffon Missile  Boat Tender
5xT11  class Patrol Cruisers
10xType S class Scouts
5xBattle class Couriers
2xAmbush class Destroyers
5xFolgore class Assault Ships

TL10 Adabicci Squadron
10xDFC Frigates
30xAndrea Doria Auxilliary Transports

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Friends in High Places, Part Four.
In-Reply-To: <151.11ceca62.2a7b936d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020802120329.00793b30@minn.net>

                     Friends in High Places
                                
                           Part Four


     The walls of the Municipal Jail in Oshkosh on Regina were
painted in a standard institutional shade of light green. The
light reflected from the walls gave all persons and physical
objects in the jail a greenish tinge in appearance.
     "There is no spoon." Said Dana Wolfsburg. 
     Nothing happened.
     "There's no knives or forks either." Said the assistant
gunner, who very obviously failed to get the flat-film reference.
     The four members of the landing party were in the men's
holding tank at the Municipal Jail. Even though her gender on the
Imperial identification card was listed as female, Dana was stuck
in the men's tank because the local police gene-scanner persisted
in identifying her as a male human. This would merely be annoying
if the four crew members from the CHAUCHAT were alone in the
men's holding tank.
     Nursing a variety of non-lethal blunt-force injuries at the
other end of the holding tank were the surviving male members of
the local Orthodox Bargerite congregation. Three of them had been
dumb enough to actually shoot at the Imperial Marines who were
called in to deal with the armed altercation between the
Bargerites and the crew of the CHAUCHAT. The Marines promptly and
permanently removed the three trigger happy Bargerites from the
human gene pool.
     The door of the men's holding tank opened. Four Marines in
full battle dress and wielding stun-staffs walked in and formed a
line between the Bargerites and the landing party. Following the
Marines into the room was the Captain of the former Imperial Navy
Ship CHAUCHAT. 
     "Before you leave this joint," said Dennis Sterling to his
crew, "I want all of you to know that I, really and truly, DO NOT
enjoy asking for favors from Imperial officials."
     Dennis paused for dramatic effect.
     "Do all of you understand?"
     They did. The assistant gunner spoke up.
     "Are we taking your ex-wife with us?"
     Dennis glared at the subordinate, before he could give voice
to an answer to the damned question there came a noise from
across the cell. One of the Bargerites stood up and voiced with
obscene embellishment his claim to Helen, the former wife of the
Captain. With clenched fists the thug attempted to charge at the
Captain. Before the Marines could act, Dennis drew his pistol and
placed an 11.4 mm round through the thug's forehead.
     Captain Sterling glared at the remaining Bargerites.
     "Anyone else want to try me?"

     Doc continued to stare at the Tarot deck sitting on the
floor before her. 
     What was the point of having a Tarot deck if she wasn't
going to use it? The feeling of impending doom wasn't about to go
away by itself. At least do a three card spread.
     Doc picked up the deck and started to shuffle it.

     Ditzie was waiting at the front desk of the local jail, she
was sitting on a black ballistic cloth duffle bag. Standing next
to her was a Vargr in a black trench coat with black sunglasses.  
     Dennis introduced the Vargr to the rest of his crew.
     "This is Daevagh, he was a Lieutenant Commander in the
Imperial Navy, and he will be our navigator on the coming
voyage."
     The other crew members were worried, what voyage?
     Ditzie stood and spoke up.
     "We're going to the Vargr Extents!"
     
     Even though the Captain wasn't present, Doc decided to use
his as the Querent, the person for whom the divination was being
performed. A reasonable choice since the fate of all souls aboard
the CHAUCHAT was bound up to his.
     The first card Doc drew was the Page of Swords, not much of
a surprise there, the Captain was a former naval intelligence
officer.

     Dennis had other unfinished business to attend to, he
stepped into the women's holding cell. Loosely bunched at one end
of the cell were the female companions of the Orthodox
Bargerites, they were either unconscious or too badly injured to
move. Sitting on a bench at the other end of the cell was his
former wife, Helen. 
     Dennis raised an eyebrow in a Spock-like manner, there was
once a time when he would have wondered how Helen ended up with
the Angels of Hell. He spoke to her.
     "It appears Madame, that you were not subjected to a proper
strip search." 
     Helen stood up and slowly walked over to him.  In height she
only came up to his nose.
     "Do you want to do a proper strip search now?" She cooed.
     "Madame," he answered, "if it were entirely up to me I would
leave you here with your friends." He gestured to the pile of
beat-up Barger-babes on the other side of the cell.
     "But," he continued, "I've been directed by the Imperial
authorities to remove you from this planet." 
     Helen's facial expression changed from sweet and seductive
to a focused frown.
     "So," Dennis concluded, "let us not make this situation any
more unpleasant than it has to be."
 
     The second card that Doc drew from the deck was The Fool,
reversed. The card normally depicted a young man and his dog
embarking on a journey of discovery. Reversed, the card meant
that the journey would be fraught with hazards. 

     The police sergeant at the front desk was being difficult.
He was refusing to return the weapons seized from the landing
party. The pistols would have been easy enough to replace, but
replacing the customized Advanced Combat Rifles would have taken
time that Dennis and his crew could ill afford to waste. 
     "Sergeant," Dennis again pulled out and unfolded a sheet of
official Imperial Stationary from his pocket, "what part of this
warrant did you not understand?"
     The desk sergeant originally seemed happy to see Captain
Sterling walk in through the front door of the jail, until the
Captain pulled out a Ducal Warrant and a squad of Marines. 
     "Do I have to read it to you again?"

     Doc drew the third card from the deck.
     It was The Tower.
     "Oh, shit..."

     The Lone Sniper woke up with the taste of mud and plastic in
his mouth. He felt like he was immersed in warm water.
     The last thing that he remembered was his falling from a
radio and navigational light tower at a landing field on the
planet Regina. Fortunately, he fell flat forward into the pool of
muddy water adjacent to the concrete base of the tower.
Unfortunately, the water at the point of impact was only fifteen
centimeters deep.
     The Lone Sniper opened his eyes. He was secured by straps
and surgical tape in an Imperial standard regeneration tank in a
hospital somewhere on Regina.
     This wouldn't be so bad if he was unconscious. 
     Except of course for the fact that patients in the regen
tank aren't supposed to be wide awake.  
     The Lone Sniper couldn't even scream this time.

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:08:02 2002
Subject: JTAS Contest (was: Re: [TML] warship optimization in traveller)
Message-ID: <15003d14e409.14e40915003d@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: David Shayne <daveshayne@ameritech.net>
Date: Friday, August 2, 2002 4:24 am
Subject: Re: [TML] warship optimization in traveller

> > From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
> > Date: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 11:41 pm
> >
> 
> <snip>
> 
> > For JTAS subscribers, the recently-completed starship design 
> > contest (Contest #10) had some excellent hospital ships, albeit 
> > mostly using design sequences other than HG2.  Note, though, 
> that 
> > the winning design (not mine, sad to say) was built using HG2.
> 
> That design would have been mine. And IMHO it wasn't the best 
> design in
> that contest. I won, I believe, because of my shameless 
> misappropriationof 20th century american pop culture icons. (I 
> must have been channeling
> Dave Nilsen)

Just out of curiosity, which one did you vote for?  I was caught up in 
the actual deployment from Ft. Carson to Sinai, so I didn't submit a 
vote, but I probably would have voted for _Sanctuary_, the 300,000 dton 
converted Fleet Support Tanker [*].
> 
> All of which reminds me that I have to firm up the details for the 
> nextdesign contest.

Now that I have relatively reliable Internet access again, I eagerly 
await the next JTAS contest [**].

[*] Actually, I liked my own design best, but I've always viewed voting 
for your own ship in such a contest as gauche.

[**] For those who would like to participate, just go to the 
Starship/Vehicle Design discussion board on JTAS.  Not a subscriber?  
Why not?  It's only $15 US per two years for biweekly issues and access 
to archives, discussion boards and Brubek's chat room.  [And if you 
mention that aurictech referred you, I get a free month added to _my_ 
subscription! ;-)]

http://jtas.sjgames.com/subscribe/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:08:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:08:43 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <11c.14c7f23e.2a7b7e6b@aol.com>
References: <11c.14c7f23e.2a7b7e6b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3it2tkx3r.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
> 
> In reference to the original post that started all this, I don't
> know what else to say, 'cept I'm glad all these true warriors aren't
> in charge of making making major procurement and force deployment
> decisions.

I think a point which many have been trying to make is that those
decisions are made exactly according to such criteria.  Hence the
references to real-life battles and situations.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
If you're a politician, bureaucrat, or cop whose livelihood depends on
the drug war, you're fully as contemptible as any pusher, smuggler, or
cocaine baron--more so, because, unlike them, you profit directly by
destroying what was once the greatest freedom ever known to mankind.
                              --Mirelle Stein, The Productive Class

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] AC-130 losses [was something?]
Message-ID: <3D4ABE97.F32CD2F5@mail.cswnet.com>

I can't remember who wanted this or why, but here goes:

AC-130 losses, Vietnam
3 Aircraft, 52 aircrew
*also, IIRC from dad, 1 aircraft made it back to base but never
flew again.
Most losses from Triple A or SA-7.

AC-130 losses, Gulf War
1 Aircraft, 14 aircrew
Believed to be lost from a SA-16.

AC-130 Somalia operations [Kenya accident]
1 Aircraft, 8 aircrew
Accident; crashed off of Kenya coast.

For further details:
http://www.Spectre-association.org/

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <76.201d4ff6.2a7b1285@aol.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMENMIJAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>


 >>  >They might want more choices besides Dreadnaughts.
 >>
 >> Show me your choices.  I'd love to see 'em.
 >
 >Low-end ships so you can do all your jobs within your budget maybe?

I understand that, but there's the question of what your enemy is doing.
Consider the extreams -- if your goal is to win engagements then you'll want
a few expensive capital ships, but if you want to "do all the jobs" then
you'll want a herd of warm bodies (as it were).  Between the extreams is the
balance -- but where is it?  I think it's way over in the "win engagements"
side.  If you "cover all the bases" with warm bodies but have to flee every
time the heavyweight enemy shows up then what good is that?  There is no
substitute for victory, and to get that victory you need the heavyweights
and
you need more of them than your enemy.

 >Patrol ships and tankers and whatever you plan to escort the talkers with.

If by patrol you mean scouts, then yes.  But if you mean general policing
then I'd think that would be a local police matter and not a fleet matter.
If I'm an admiral at Jewell looking at 1000 Zhodie capital ship in Cronor,
and I hear about some pirates at Enope, I'd have to set priorities and ask
Wochiers to deal with it.  Since imminent war is not a constant threat, if
some patrols were desperately needed by local governments then I'd send some
screening vessels to deal with the problem and then return.

As for tankers (?), if I had any I'd just keep them with the fleet.

>The USN,
>for example, has other ships than carriers or attack subs (whichever you
>consider to be the capital ship). Most navies have some high-end combat
>ships and low-end workhorses.

That's because of real-world issues regarding weapon load capacities, size
vs
speed, air / surface / sub environment requirements, hull-shape
requirements,
and dozens of other factors, make such specialization necessary and
effective.  These issues don't transfer well to a Traveller universe.  In
Traveller everyone can go just as fast as the next guy, they all can carry
the same weapons, there's no limitation on size or hull configuration, and
so
on.  Would you put an Ageis system on a cargo ship?  You can do it in
Traveller, and it works.  Would you put ten inch armor on a destroyer?  You
can do it in Traveller, and it works.  Effective combat ships will all tend
towards the same hull/weapons/defenses configuration, and specialization
will
become mere limitation.

My Spinward Marches Colonial Fleet has supply vessels, hospital ships,
minesweepers, and other stuff in addition to its capital vessels.  But they
are all sideshows, and minor elements of the fleet -- maybe 5% of the total
tonnage.  I intend to win the major engagements first -- I'll clean up any
leftover messes after I win.

Mr. Flykiller

I've been following this debate over ships.

A config 7, dispersed structure, ship has the
highest to hit target of any configuration.
A high agility, high computer size A or less
meson escort is the hardest to hit of any ship.
Other weapons find it hard to hit with as well.
Additionally, is features the lowest hull cost.

A Wombat swarmers is an anti capital ship weapon.
They are realitively inexpensive, has low crew
sizes, and back up computers, bridges and low berths to
increase their staying power.

In game terms a Wombat has a size mod of -1, and agility
of 6 and a computer 9 giving it a to hit mod of
-14 + computer attacking ship (renderinging it unhittable
by anything other then a Meson M meson spinal mountor
better which a T hits on an  10, 11 or 12 , Q-s hit on
11 or 12 and the others only hit on a 12 assuming
a type 9 computer with an allotment of two extra PP levels
to soak up PP hits.  they have a back up level 9 computer
and 30 low berths -- allowing for 3 levels of crew hits.
In Trilion Credit Squadron senerios, they only soak
up one pilot and work on the factor 9 meson gun column.

1	10
2	9
3	7
4	4
5	3
6	6
7	12
8	2
9	11

before any modifactions. Most Capital ships are at least size B
so it is at worst a +1 in any exchange of fire

Interesingly, with the backups and lack of Armour, she has
weapon hits to fear the most -- she has no screens and jump
drives, so spinal weapons are at a disadvantage against it --
only 10 and 12 on pentrating hits are  mission kills on the
radiation table while 8 and 11 are MKs on the Surface explosion
table.  the +6 DM that sub 9 bay/batteries have acually hurt
her more.  PA that can hurt it, at best -- assuming a 9 computer --
need a 10 or better to hit while missiles need a seven
at best

The Wombat is a specialists and can be hurt, but the things that
can hurt it are at a disavantage trying to hit it and things
that can hit it do find it hard to Mission kill it.  Costing
DD price range, they threaten any capital ship scoring weapon
and computer hits through radiation hits and all but Critical and
shattered fuel hits on hits and penetrate and score interior hits.

Ship: Fred
Class: Wombat
Type: Meson Swarmer
Architect: jml
Tech Level: 15

USP
         Es-A706Z92-000000-00090-0 MCr 1,405.500 1 KTons
Bat Bear                      1    Crew: 19
Bat                           1    TL: 15

Cargo: 9.000 Fuel: 300.000 EP: 300.000 Agility: 6
Backups: 1 x Model/9 Computer 1 x Bridge
Substitutions: Z = 30

Architects Fee: MCr 14.055   Cost in Quantity: MCr 1,124.400


Detailed Description

HULL
1,000.000 tons standard, 14,000.000 cubic meters, Dispersed Structure
Configuration

CREW
Pilot, Navigator, 14 Engineers, Medic, 2 Gunners

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 6G Manuever, Power plant-30, 300.000 EP, Agility 6

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/9 Computer
1 Backup Bridge, 1 Model/9 Backup Computer

HARDPOINTS
1 100-ton bay

ARMAMENT
1 100-ton Meson Bay (Factor-9)

DEFENCES
None

CRAFT
None

FUEL
300.000 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
No Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
10.0 Staterooms, 30 Low Berths, 9.000 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 1,419.555 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 14.055), MCr 1,124.400 in
Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
120 Weeks Singly, 96 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <1666ad163c67.163c671666ad@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Date: Friday, August 2, 2002 3:51 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] warship optimization in traveller

> On 1 Aug 2002 at 16:42, Hurrel, Brian wrote:
> 
> > "No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy."
> > 
> > I'm paraphrasing, and can't remember who said this. Maybe 
> Clausewitz(SP?).
> Moltke, IIRC, but it's probably about as old as warfare itself.

FWIW, I recall reading a corollary to this quote:

"No unit ever survived contact with the enemy _without_ a battle plan."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:44:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:44:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CF7@USCHM203>

>The Germans, and
 >particularly the Japanese were horribly dehumanized.  We made our enemies
 >into monsters so then it was OK to exterminate them.

If there was any dehumanizing of the Germans and Japanese, they did it
themselves through their own brutality. 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith Mormon minion of Arioch)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CF7@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <007f01c23a4c$9e46f0d0$6f7ba8c0@kenneith93j41k>

Well actually we did it with our propaganda before we even found out they
were basterds, don't; get me wrong what they did was wrong, but at the time
we chose a path also to get our war machine in motion.
Ken

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comics
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you
http://www.geocities.com/J_Elric_Smith/Index.html
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 1:43 PM
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization


> >The Germans, and
>  >particularly the Japanese were horribly dehumanized.  We made our
enemies
>  >into monsters so then it was OK to exterminate them.
>
> If there was any dehumanizing of the Germans and Japanese, they did it
> themselves through their own brutality.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <004301c23a04$8cdeff60$0112bd50@martinjd>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
 <m3ofclg93m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
 <004301c23a04$8cdeff60$0112bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <m3eldhkv8o.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> writes:
> 
> There are simulator drawbacks--`simulator sickness--which is kind of
> psychosomatic motion sickness, can begin to manifest itself on real
> missions (or cause them to not do certain things because they expect
> sim sickness).

Again, a sufficiently advanced computer (I'm talking about Moore's law
for 2,000 years: capacity increasing by 1.5 every 1.5 years for 2,000
years is a 6.1425e234 increase; by 2 every 2 years is a 1.0715e301
increase) can model sufficiently well that one will experience bad
effects exactly as in real life...

> And they can develop a habit of recklessness since they can't die,
> which is bad if carried over, or sometimes evaporates in a mist of
> nerves because suddenly they CAN.

Granted--I'm not arguing that sims would replace training, but that
basic piloting skills might very well be widespread in the population
due to the prevalence of sims.  That is, much as manipulating a
first-person shooter is pretty much common to 95% of teenage males
today, the basics of piloting a fighter craft might be common to 95%
of teenage males in thefar future.  Thus fighter training might be
much quicker and risk-free than currently, and consequently fighter
pilots might be significantly cheaper.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
What did you do to the cat? It looks half-dead.
                         --Schroedinger's wife

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CF7@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208021045440.12501-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 2 Aug 2002, Hurrel, Brian wrote:

>  >The Germans, and
>  >particularly the Japanese were horribly dehumanized.  We made our enemies
>  >into monsters so then it was OK to exterminate them.
> 
> If there was any dehumanizing of the Germans and Japanese, they did it
> themselves through their own brutality. 

Um, all of them, even the children?

The problem with dehumanization is that it invites things like rape and
torture of noncombatants, and just because one side is doing that does not
mean it's a good idea, or OK, for the other side to do it.

Kiri

**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:53:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:53:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in traveller)
Message-ID: <F244ozCsVINDnKgXhLy00004901@hotmail.com>

Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:
>The US Army did studies in which they discovered that the
>longest that a solider can stay in a combat zone is about
>100 days.  After that, he falls apart.  So the Army began
>rotating units to rest areas so they could recharge a little
>and get roaring drunk and contract VD before going back
>into the line.  It will be harder for the Imperium to do this,
>but I think it would be a priority to establish some sort of
>safe zone for the troops.

It's an old saw that military service is extended periods of
boredom punctuated by short periods of stark terror.  Imagine
if an army used sleeper ships to move their troops around...
soldiers whose military service consisted of sleeping through
the extended periods of boredom, and only being awake for the
periods of stark terror.

That kind of setup might be cheap when it came to starship
life support costs, but I imagine the impact on the soldiers'
psyches would be extreme.

I remember a sci-fi tale of soldiers such as this, warriors
who would sleep for ages and only wake for war, while society
changed around them into unrecognizability...it wasn't
Gordon R. Dickson's _Soldier, Ask Not_, was it?

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (R. Michael Stephens)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in traveller)
References: <F244ozCsVINDnKgXhLy00004901@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D4AC860.5000504@vanderbilt.edu>

Similar effects in Jack Chalker's "Forever War", very fast STL, large 
time dialation effects, and IIRC hibernation.

Walt Smith wrote:
> Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:
> 
>> The US Army did studies in which they discovered that the
>> longest that a solider can stay in a combat zone is about
>> 100 days.  After that, he falls apart.  So the Army began
>> rotating units to rest areas so they could recharge a little
>> and get roaring drunk and contract VD before going back
>> into the line.  It will be harder for the Imperium to do this,
>> but I think it would be a priority to establish some sort of
>> safe zone for the troops.
> 
> 
> It's an old saw that military service is extended periods of
> boredom punctuated by short periods of stark terror.  Imagine
> if an army used sleeper ships to move their troops around...
> soldiers whose military service consisted of sleeping through
> the extended periods of boredom, and only being awake for the
> periods of stark terror.
> 
> That kind of setup might be cheap when it came to starship
> life support costs, but I imagine the impact on the soldiers'
> psyches would be extreme.
> 
> I remember a sci-fi tale of soldiers such as this, warriors
> who would sleep for ages and only wake for war, while society
> changed around them into unrecognizability...it wasn't
> Gordon R. Dickson's _Soldier, Ask Not_, was it?
> 
> Walt Smith
> Firelock on DALNet
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


-- 
--
R. Michael Stephens               Systems Software Specialist
Vanderbilt University         Information Technology Services
Systems Development & Implementation      VUwebmail Developer
Nashville TN.  USA  R.M.Stephens@Vanderbilt.Edu  615.343.8780


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 12:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 11:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208021045440.12501-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <B9701696.6773B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/2/02 10:49 AM, Azalais Malfoy at tiamat@tsoft.com wrote:

>> If there was any dehumanizing of the Germans and Japanese, they did it
>> themselves through their own brutality.
> 
> Um, all of them, even the children?
> 
> The problem with dehumanization is that it invites things like rape and
> torture of noncombatants, and just because one side is doing that does not
> mean it's a good idea, or OK, for the other side to do it.
> 

Just to bring this back to Traveller,  how do the Imperium portray it's
adversaries?  We can probably guess that the Solomani do a bit of
dehumanizing propaganda against their Imperial foe.  How does the Imperium
portray the Zhodani and Solomani to it's citizenry.  And is there an
Imperial Ministry for Propaganda?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 12:11:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fred Ramen)
Date: Fri Aug  2 11:11:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Blowing holes in Japan (was " Re Patton")
Message-ID: <009d01c23a4f$d11f1de0$f42bf7a5@pctframen>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> writes:

"An Allied invasion would have also included the USSR.  There could have
been a Tokyo wall to match the one in Berlin.  Today, Japan could be
struggling to assimilate and rebuild Hokkaido and the northern half of
Honshu, just as the Germans are still trying to deal with the eastern
portions of their recently reunited nation."

My dear Mr. Whipsnade,

Given that without a unified Japan many of the U.S.'s conflicts in Asia
(Korea, Vietnam, guaranteeing the independence of Taiwan) would likely have
been fantastically difficult or impossible, in your alternate scenario the
Tokyo (and perhaps Berlin!) walls might likely still be up! A divided Japan
would have made it almost impossible for the US to prosecute the war in
Korea without the conflict spreading into a general US/Soviet war, for
example.

Fred "Paging Dr. Turtledove" Ramen


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 12:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 11:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
 traveller)
In-Reply-To: <3D4AC860.5000504@vanderbilt.edu>
Message-ID: <B9701A4C.6777A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/2/02 10:58 AM, R. Michael Stephens at Robert.M.Stephens@vanderbilt.edu
wrote:

> Similar effects in Jack Chalker's "Forever War", very fast STL, large
> time dialation effects, and IIRC hibernation.

That's Joe Haldeman's "Forever War"

[snip]
>> 
>> I remember a sci-fi tale of soldiers such as this, warriors
>> who would sleep for ages and only wake for war, while society
>> changed around them into unrecognizability...it wasn't
>> Gordon R. Dickson's _Soldier, Ask Not_, was it?
>> 


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 12:25:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (R. Michael Stephens)
Date: Fri Aug  2 11:25:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in	traveller)
References: <B9701A4C.6777A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D4ACED6.3070507@vanderbilt.edu>

Right.  Thanks.  Aging memory is not a fun thing.

Mike

Tod Glenn wrote:
> on 8/2/02 10:58 AM, R. Michael Stephens at Robert.M.Stephens@vanderbilt.edu
> wrote:
> 
> 
>>Similar effects in Jack Chalker's "Forever War", very fast STL, large
>>time dialation effects, and IIRC hibernation.
> 
> 
> That's Joe Haldeman's "Forever War"
> 
> [snip]
> 
>>>I remember a sci-fi tale of soldiers such as this, warriors
>>>who would sleep for ages and only wake for war, while society
>>>changed around them into unrecognizability...it wasn't
>>>Gordon R. Dickson's _Soldier, Ask Not_, was it?
>>>
>>
> 
> 
> --
> When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.


-- 
--
R. Michael Stephens               Systems Software Specialist
Vanderbilt University         Information Technology Services
Systems Development & Implementation      VUwebmail Developer
Nashville TN.  USA  R.M.Stephens@Vanderbilt.Edu  615.343.8780


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 12:52:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 11:52:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Rowan's Beasts
Message-ID: <3D4AD3D0.CD2C003@mail.cswnet.com>

I've decided to play in the bestiary for a little bit, in part to work
on some pc stuff and to take a break from starships.

Rowan's Beasts, from Supplement 6, Page 13.

I've decided to model these after the Roan Antelope, especially since I
have absolutely no biological/zooalogical experience/training to help
me with a discriptive commentary.

Herbivore/Grazer (4d)
weight: 400kg
hits: 16/9
armor: none
weapons: hooves and horns
wounds: 12
A:4 F:1 S:3

Believed to originate from Terra, Rowans have been transported to a
number of other systems. Its horns are a highly prized hunting trophey,
and it is also used by a number of religous cults as a symbolic figure.
They usually have a brown-grey coat, with black and white head markings
and a black tail. The male horns typically are 40-50cm in length, and
are curved backwards. Females also sport horns, but these are not as
long. Rowan are typically encountered in clear grass land, prairie, and 
savanah type environments. Usually found in herds of 20 and 100
animals, with between 1 to 5 males per group. Typical gestation period
runs between 270-300 days, with one offspring usually resulting. They 
typically have a lifespan of 18 years.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CF9@USCHM203>

> Ken wrote:
[re Germans and Japanese]

>Well actually we did it with our propaganda before we even found out they
>were basterds, don't; get me wrong what they did was wrong, but at the time
>we chose a path also to get our war machine in motion.

You have a point. One of the reasons people were very slow to believe
reports of German atrocities during WWII was because they remembered all the
false propaganda reports of German atrocities during WWI.

Personally, I find it hard to shed many tears for Hiroshima, Nagasaki, or
Dresden. Cold? Maybe. Avoidable or unneccessary? Perhaps in hindsight, but
that's a luxury no one had at the time. 
Do I condone the mass bombing of civilians or celebrate the deaths of
children? No. But as far as I'm concerned the Germans and Japanese were
ultimately responsible for their own destruction.
The Allies also showed much greater restraint than would have been shown us
if the tables were turned. I have no doubt the Axis powers, had they won,
would have gone on a rampage of looting, rape, genocide, and destruction
that would boggle the mind, and luckily remains in the realm of
science-fiction.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CFA@USCHM203>

Kiri wrote:

>Um, all of them, even the children?

No. But children often cannot keep their parents from acting foolishly and
putting them in danger.

Anyway, for the most part, it was not an Allied policy to target
non-combatants. Civilians live near factories, and factories are going to be
bombed. Also, bombers had nowhere near the precision of today's smart
weapons. What took one cruise missile during the gulf war would have taken a
flight of B17s 45 years earlier.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:18:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:18:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller HIDING
Message-ID: <F96dOgl4rhYQYx3G5aY00000042@hotmail.com>

Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:
<snip Flykiller's comments>
>
>Uncalled for.

To be fair, I was in the process of descending down to his
level, and I had a few uncalled for comments myself.

I am *not* interested in undertaking a contest with Flykiller,
and he is welcome to think of it what he will.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Carolyn & Royce)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <3D4B28F8.948.FD2916@localhost>
Message-ID: <007101c23a5b$5a5d63e0$6f142c42@roycereiss>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 8:51 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] warship optimization in traveller


On 1 Aug 2002 at 16:42, Hurrel, Brian wrote:

> "No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy."
>
> I'm paraphrasing, and can't remember who said this. Maybe Clausewitz(SP?).

Moltke, IIRC, but it's probably about as old as warfare itself.

--
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

I prefer the follow from Moltke the Elder
"Plans are nothing,  planning is everything"

Roy


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net><m3ofclg93m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org><004301c23a04$8cdeff60$0112bd50@martinjd> <m3eldhkv8o.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <00aa01c23a5c$4f293ca0$5d0bbd50@martinjd>

> "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> writes:
> >
> > There are simulator drawbacks--`simulator sickness--which is kind of
> > psychosomatic motion sickness, can begin to manifest itself on real
> > missions (or cause them to not do certain things because they expect
> > sim sickness).
>
> Again, a sufficiently advanced computer (I'm talking about Moore's law
> for 2,000 years: capacity increasing by 1.5 every 1.5 years for 2,000
> years is a 6.1425e234 increase; by 2 every 2 years is a 1.0715e301
> increase) can model sufficiently well that one will experience bad
> effects exactly as in real life...

Okay, if you can manage to simulate g stress and all the other stuff too,
then my comment above doesn't apply. If not, it does. You need more than an
amazing computer for this. Which translates to "again, I don't believe in
perfect simulators".

>
> > And they can develop a habit of recklessness since they can't die,
> > which is bad if carried over, or sometimes evaporates in a mist of
> > nerves because suddenly they CAN.
>
> Granted--I'm not arguing that sims would replace training, but that
> basic piloting skills might very well be widespread in the population
> due to the prevalence of sims.  That is, much as manipulating a
> first-person shooter is pretty much common to 95% of teenage males
> today, the basics of piloting a fighter craft might be common to 95%
> of teenage males in thefar future.  Thus fighter training might be
> much quicker and risk-free than currently, and consequently fighter
> pilots might be significantly cheaper.

Or society will be full of people who think they can flyb fighters, who
think they understand fuighter tactics, and who think they don't have to
listen to the instructors. I get this all the time teaching self-defense to
young men who think they know how to punch. They don't listen and don't get
any better. This actually means that the "human wave" attack might be
plausible. It'sd all you can do with these people. The French Revolutionary
army had a similar problem when it tries to turn the victorious volunteers
into a real army with discipline and manuever capability.





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:29:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:29:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMENMIJAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <00ab01c23a5c$506fc660$5d0bbd50@martinjd>

> Ship: Fred
> Class: Wombat
> Type: Meson Swarmer
> Architect: jml
> Tech Level: 15

These are nice. I notice that they're not fighters.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:30:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:30:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <200208021543.g72Fhlw12656@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <00af01c23a5c$51d040c0$5d0bbd50@martinjd>

> >counter them. Or if they could carry enough fighters to scrub a decent
light
> >cruiser before it closed and killed the carrier. Or....
>
>   Sadly, HG2 doesn't allow those sorts of complications, but
> any of the hex-based Trav games make riders/carriers _much_
> less attractive for precisely that reason.
>

Agreed. This is why I believe that HG/TCS alone do not present a framework
for creating a believable starfaring navy.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:31:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:31:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
References: <3D4B49A4.30448.6221A7B@localhost>
Message-ID: <00b101c23a5c$5444ea40$5d0bbd50@martinjd>

> On 2 Aug 2002, at 10:14, Cheng Tseng wrote:
>
> > Were they?  I do not remember any FAA torpedo squadrons involved, and
the only
> > torpedo squadron the RAF's Coastal Command had in England (The rest were
in
> > the Med.) had Beauforts, if I remember correctly.
>
> #825 Sqd, Lt Cmdr Esmonde led six Swordfish against the Scharnhorst,
> Gneisenau and Prinz Eugen with their escorts and heavy fighter cover. All
> six were shot down and only by a miracle did 5 of the 18 crew survive. Lt
> Cmdr Esmonde received the FAA's first VC for the attack.

One of my obscurely related uncles was killed in the Channel Dash, attacking
the Scharnhorst in a torpedo boat. Never got anywhere near, but his widow
went to Buckingham Palace to collect the medal they awarded for making the
attempt.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:31:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:31:44 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <3D4B24F2.20758.ED70D3@localhost>
Message-ID: <00b201c23a5c$554ff1a0$5d0bbd50@martinjd>

>
> > IE Units will NOT enter routine combat situations where they know
> > they will be massacred.
>
> I think it depends a lot on the chances of success and the value the
> soldier (or pilots, or whatevers) place on that success.

Yes, hence my use of the word "routine". Critical situations (or good
manipulation by morale experts) will be different.

>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <200208021928.LXQ00226@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Douglas E. Berry" says
>Doesn't stop the flow of volunteers.

Me! Me! Pick me!
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:33:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:33:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Meduim Navies
Message-ID: <200208021932.LXR00217@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Roseberry says
<snip cool stuff on small navies>
I've wanted to do something on that scale for a PBEM, with 
the players doing their TCS thing with some politics and with 
the GM resolving battles and doing a CNN-like news.

________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in traveller)
Message-ID: <200208021936.LXR00684@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"R. Michael Stephens" says
>Similar effects in Jack Chalker's "Forever War", very fast 
>STL, large time dialation effects, and IIRC hibernation.

Ahem.. Joe Haldeman...
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <200208021939.LXR00993@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"MJ Dougherty" says
>These are nice. I notice that they're not fighters.
>

I'll repeat myself.  Using the small fleet concept that 
Roseberry posted earlier, I would be interested in running a 
TL 12 PBEM.

Then we could find out through politics what other players 
(representing their governments) think of things like 
planetary bombardment, prisoner exchange, trade embargos, 
blockades, etc.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
References: <20020802062003.11635.24330.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <eimkkukp9lm8iv0tjm0iu5gvjaoi5j6oov@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <3D4ADFBF.8030303@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Jeff Zeitlin wrote:

> 
> I refuse to believe that they _want_ a city that is so badly mismanaged
> that Congress was ready to take away what autonomy they had.

Well, a large part of the problems in DC has been the fact that they 
have generally had 565 masters to please...

565 rather stingy masters, at that, who didn't live or work in the city 
that the DC authorites had to police...only their nannies, garbage men 
and maids lived *there*.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:52:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:52:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <8d.1bfa1383.2a7a4253@aol.com> <3.0.5.16.20020802094239.36dff48c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3D4AE2D3.9080101@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> Hell, as a sniper I was considered to be a highly-skilled soldier (not
> cannon-fodder) and was expected to do insane things that were extremely
> dangerous and most often fatal.  Snipers are rarely taken prisoner.  Enemy
> troops tend to kill them when they are caught.  Doesn't stop the flow of
> volunteers.

Except, of course, you knew, deep down, *you* were good enough to 
survive, and get away without being caught. It was the other guy, the 
one who made mistakes, and had bad luck, who got captured and killed, 
not you. You were *good* dammit, you were a Ranger! Hooah!

I think this is the crucial element we're overlooking in this debate.

At one point during WWII the survival rates of US aviator pilits was not 
*much* better than kamakazi's. The crucial element is that they believed 
that their survival was ultimately influenced by their actions and 
abilities and their omnipresent good luck.

This goes for all of the 'suicide' missions like U-boat crews, our own 
submarine crews, and aviators. It's not a coincidence that submariners 
are usually considered the most fanatically superstious of all armed 
forces personnel.

When it becomes clear that no matter *what* you do, you're going to die, 
attitudes change.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in traveller)
References: <200208021936.LXR00684@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D4AE3B5.9050704@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

The original story about the soldiers being woken up for combat sounds 
quite a bit like the movie 'Universal Soldier', which, iirc, was based 
on a P.K. Dick short story or novella.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:57:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:57:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <00ab01c23a5c$506fc660$5d0bbd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHKEOJIJAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

> Ship: Fred
> Class: Wombat
> Type: Meson Swarmer
> Architect: jml
> Tech Level: 15

These are nice. I notice that they're not fighters.

_______________________________________________

Nope, High end SDB's or low end monitors IMO
They were a possible take on that survival thingy.

jml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in traveller)
Message-ID: <F91b7ENl92BgHK61Aca000250e0@hotmail.com>

R. Michael Stephens <Robert.M.Stephens@vanderbilt.edu> wrote:
>Similar effects in Jack Chalker's "Forever War", very fast STL, large
>time dialation effects, and IIRC hibernation.

Similar, but I think Haldeman's _Forever War_ was more about
isolation from society than concentrated warfare experience.
A soldier in Haldeman's book might spend a year (subjective)
sitting in boredom, then a week fighting for his or her life.
The society he or she is fighting for might have had two hundred
years pass while the troopship was flying for a subjective year,
but at least the soldier had some down time.

With "freezer pop" soldiers, you might have people who wake
up, fight to the death for a week, then go back to sleep
until the next fight to the death crops up. No down time,
no ability to process what happened before it all starts
again.  Imagine the post-war condition of the average US
WW2 soldier if his entire tour of duty had lasted only
(a subjective) three months, but each and every (subjective)
day had as much violence as the Normandy landings?

The extreme version (from the sf story that might be _Soldier,
Ask Not_) would give these troopers social isolation problems
as well (they get woken up for a week or so every couple of
centuries), but even the lesser version you'd see in a Traveller
setting could be hard on human minds.

Forever War was a helluva book, btw.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Blowing holes in Japan (was " Re Patton")
References: <009d01c23a4f$d11f1de0$f42bf7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <3D4AE539.2070603@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Fred Ramen wrote:

 > A divided Japan
> would have made it almost impossible for the US to prosecute the war in
> Korea without the conflict spreading into a general US/Soviet war, for
> example.

Well, I don't think this is all that likely. Uncle Joe did NOT want a 
generalized US/Soviet war at the time of the Korean conflict, whetehr or 
not they held part of Japan, or else it would have happened.

As it was, Stalin refused Mao's and Jong's requests for materiel and 
men, including nuclear weapons, and the few Russians involved in the 
conflict were extremely circumspect, and confined mainly to some higher 
level advisers to the Chinese advisers and command, and as pilots, 
initially for the Mig-15 and Yak-17 (iirc) jet fighters, and then only 
until China had sufficient trained personell to fly 'em.

(and, not coincidentally, the Russians had a good understanding of their 
performance against American jet aircraft, as well...)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:05:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:05:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonabo Class Missile Frigate
Message-ID: <19e.64fcc68.2a7c3fb5@aol.com>

 >Ship: Bonabo
 >Class: Bonabo
 >Type: Missile Frigate
 >Architect: Alan Bradley
 >Tech Level: 15
 >
 >USP
 >         FM-A156892-000000-00009-0 MCr 1,196.140 1.5 KTons
 >Bat Bear                       1   Crew: 24
 >Bat                            1   TL: 15
 >
 >Cargo: 2.000 Fuel: 870.000 EP: 120.000 Agility: 6 Shipboard Security Detail:
 >2
 >Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

No armor?  No low berths?  No medical facilities?  No lifeboat?  No cargo 
supplies?  Well, at least it seems to have extra crewmen -- if you can get 
anyone to sign up.  If I were the referee I'd give this boat an endurance of 
1 - 2 months max.

 >In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships.

Yes, in sufficient numbers, and if the capital ships are poorly designed and 
employed.  But credit for credit you'll never get the numbers sufficient to 
do so.  Meanwhile with no armor these ships will be dropping like flies.  I 
think what you have here is not a line-of-battle ship, but a raider that 
needs work.  Give it some more endurance and it would do fine in that roll.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:14:02 2002
Subject: JTAS Contest (was: Re: [TML] warship optimization in traveller)
References: <20020802182504.13132.61928.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D4AE7C4.85DCBD6E@ameritech.net>

> Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 20:07:38 +0300
> From: john.groth@us.army.mil

<snip>

> Just out of curiosity, which one did you vote for? 

The 300-ton Maraaki-class Medical Ship. I liked the mission description
for this ship. Plus it's a nice PC sized ship.

> I was caught up in
> the actual deployment from Ft. Carson to Sinai, so I didn't submit a
> vote, but I probably would have voted for _Sanctuary_, the 300,000 
> dton converted Fleet Support Tanker [*].

I considered this but decided it was too big a ship for most situations. 

<snip>

> [*] Actually, I liked my own design best, but I've always viewed 
> voting for your own ship in such a contest as gauche.

Well same here. Though in this instatnce I really didn't think my ship
was the best in the running. Maybe I need to send my ego in for
refurbishing. :)

> 
> [**] For those who would like to participate, just go to the
> Starship/Vehicle Design discussion board on JTAS.  Not a subscriber?
> Why not?  It's only $15 US per two years for biweekly issues and access
> to archives, discussion boards and Brubek's chat room.  [And if you
> mention that aurictech referred you, I get a free month added to _my_
> subscription! ;-)]

Ignore this blatant self promotion and tell them davidshayne sent you.

:)
 
> http://jtas.sjgames.com/subscribe/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
 traveller)
In-Reply-To: <3D4AC860.5000504@vanderbilt.edu>
References: <F244ozCsVINDnKgXhLy00004901@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020802151624.00a90e00@minn.net>

"R. Michael Stephens" <Robert.M.Stephens@vanderbilt.edu> wrote:
>Similar effects in Jack Chalker's "Forever War", very fast STL, large 
>time dialation effects, and IIRC hibernation.

>> I remember a sci-fi tale of soldiers such as this, warriors
>> who would sleep for ages and only wake for war, while society
>> changed around them into unrecognizability...it wasn't
>> Gordon R. Dickson's _Soldier, Ask Not_, was it?
>> 
>> Walt Smith
>> Firelock on DALNet

The Forever War by Joe Haldeman. He was a grunt in Vietnam.

Read it in high school.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <20020802101235.98a3bb14da2249719a2c69a0b3078a17.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <3D4B91FA.12531.2C8155@localhost>

On 2 Aug 2002 at 10:14, Cheng Tseng wrote:

> Were they?  I do not remember any FAA torpedo squadrons involved, and the
> only torpedo squadron the RAF's Coastal Command had in England (The rest
> were in the Med.) had Beauforts, if I remember correctly.

I'm fairly sure they were (ie my source is miles away and I can't 
check). They were mentioned in a history of the Beauforts' WWII 
experiences as being there.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:20:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:20:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <20020802102615.30aca70d97e74ef18326726c229541ca.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <3D4B91FA.13395.2C819C@localhost>

On 2 Aug 2002 at 10:28, Cheng Tseng wrote:

> Well, it would have greatly improved the British chances of attacking the
> German ships if it did not take until just before the Germans were passing
> the Straits of Dover to even know they were at sea.  At least then, the
> Brits could have had time to assemble an all-out attack instead of send the
> aircrafts in dribbles and drabs which allowed the Luftwaffe to kill them.
> One of Adolf Galland's finer moments, providing air cover for the cruisers.

Yep. It also helped that somewhere in the British communications chain 
they transformed from 30,000 ton battlecruisers at 30 knots to 20,000 
ton merchants at 20 knots, so the British pilots were all firing their 
torpedos with their sights set incorrectly.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:21:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:21:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMENMIJAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
References: <76.201d4ff6.2a7b1285@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B91FA.31831.2C81F6@localhost>

On 2 Aug 2002 at 9:23, John-Martin wrote:

> A config 7, dispersed structure, ship has the
> highest to hit target of any configuration.
> A high agility, high computer size A or less
> meson escort is the hardest to hit of any ship.
> Other weapons find it hard to hit with as well.
> Additionally, is features the lowest hull cost.
> 
> A Wombat swarmers is an anti capital ship weapon.
> They are realitively inexpensive, has low crew
> sizes, and back up computers, bridges and low berths to
> increase their staying power.
> 
> In game terms a Wombat has a size mod of -1, and agility
> of 6 and a computer 9 giving it a to hit mod of
> -14 + computer attacking ship (renderinging it unhittable
> by anything other then a Meson M meson spinal mountor
> better which a T hits on an  10, 11 or 12 , Q-s hit on
> 11 or 12 and the others only hit on a 12 assuming
> a type 9 computer with an allotment of two extra PP levels
> to soak up PP hits.  they have a back up level 9 computer
> and 30 low berths -- allowing for 3 levels of crew hits.
> In Trilion Credit Squadron senerios, they only soak
> up one pilot and work on the factor 9 meson gun column.
> 
> 1	10
> 2	9
> 3	7
> 4	4
> 5	3
> 6	6
> 7	12
> 8	2
> 9	11
> 
> before any modifactions. Most Capital ships are at least size B
> so it is at worst a +1 in any exchange of fire
> 
> Interesingly, with the backups and lack of Armour, she has
> weapon hits to fear the most -- she has no screens and jump
> drives, so spinal weapons are at a disadvantage against it --
> only 10 and 12 on pentrating hits are  mission kills on the
> radiation table while 8 and 11 are MKs on the Surface explosion
> table.  the +6 DM that sub 9 bay/batteries have acually hurt
> her more.  PA that can hurt it, at best -- assuming a 9 computer --
> need a 10 or better to hit while missiles need a seven
> at best

I'm not sure I follow this bit, and I think some of your numbers are a 
little off, too. How's it stack up to cruisers with (relatively) light 
spinal PAWS?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:23:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:23:12 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <177.c580aa7.2a7c4378@aol.com>

 >>> I bet that fighting hole full of cold rainwater I stepped
 >>> into near LZ Aardvark was put there by Doug.  Thanks, Doug.
 >
 >Only the best for my friends!  And he, I walked into my fair share of those.

My reserve unit was practicing out at an old guard facility.  I was running 
hard across a field with waist-high brush towards a large bush.  I made it to 
the bush and hurtled straight into an old fighting hole.  I slammed into the 
far side, bounced back against the near side, and wound up in a twisted 
tangle six feet down.  I never even saw the hole until I was at the bottom.

When I finally recovered and climbed out, everyone else had gone back to camp 
for dinner.  That was kind of disappointing.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Baboon Class Missile Frigate CREWS
Message-ID: <1ba.43235ef.2a7c49b7@aol.com>

 >>The Baboon Class Missile Frigate is a lightly equipped patrol/escort 
vehicle.
 >>
 >>In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships.
 >
 >  <QUIBBLE> Not really? By TL E or F dampers make these ships just
 >too inefficient, IIRC?

They are too inefficient to kill, yes.  But they can still be a royal pain in 
the ass.  In the end though capital ships can kill them but they can't kill 
capital ships.  Eventually they run out of missiles.

I think the big problem with this kind of boat is not their inefficiency, but 
their crews.  It would be hard enough to get competent and willing captains, 
pilots, and engineers with the necessary decades of experience for a few 
heavily armed and armored capital ships that have adequate living space and 
support cargo.  Finding thousands of deployable captains, pilots, and 
engineers who would be willing to live and fight in barely-adequate 
Volkswagens (as it were) would be a major problem.  I think this difficulty 
should be reflected in their skill levels.  I know TCS specifically and 
categorically states otherwise, but I think this issue is just too big and 
reasonable to so breezily ignore it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fred Ramen)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Blowing holes in Japan (was " Re Patton")
Message-ID: <00d901c23a66$05486160$4a2bf7a5@pctframen>

I wrote:

 > A divided Japan
> would have made it almost impossible for the US to prosecute the war in
> Korea without the conflict spreading into a general US/Soviet war, for
> example.

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

"Well, I don't think this is all that likely. Uncle Joe did NOT want a
generalized US/Soviet war at the time of the Korean conflict, whetehr or
not they held part of Japan, or else it would have happened. <snip>"

Oh, I agree that the Stalin didn't want to expand the conflict any more than
Truman did. My point was merely that it would have been extremely unlikely
for the Soviets to allow a divided Japan (as posited in Mr. Whipsnade's
original post) to be used as a staging area for American intervention in
Korea (or Vietnam, for that matter).

Of course, I may be overstating the importance of Japan to US Pacific
security, and am quite open to being corrected in this regard.

Fred Ramen


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 15:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 14:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <112.1523c9f7.2a7c50e1@aol.com>

 >In the active service I've know many fine female sailors who were competent
 >technicians and fine seaman. And more than a few who were more competent
 >leaders than many of the critics who bemoaned the posting of woman to ships.

I've seen a handful.  Offsetting this, I've seen companies where every single 
corporal  and several sergeants get busted down for sex with the female 
privates.  I've seen active duty females refuse orders to perform physical 
tasks (like dumping trash cans) and tell sergeants to their face to "get a 
male to do it".  I've seen females who cannot, and I mean cannot, pass their 
limited physical fitness tests, who can't do  even seven pushups, but who 
still remain in units.  I've seen females who cannot climb the ladder from 
the shaft alley to the second deck and who have to be helped.  I've seen 
females finish their expensive training and then promptly be discharged 
because they're pregnant.

Whatever benefits they bring I think are outweighed by the negatives.  I'd 
dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their 
traditional roles of nurse and clerk.  If the US military is so hard-up for 
warm bodies that it really needs females, then I say reinstitute the WACS and 
WAVES and whatever else, with their own standards and their own chain of 
command, and put them in charge of stateside facilities like hospitals and 
supply depots and personnel offices so men are freed up for more forward 
duties.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 15:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Fri Aug  2 14:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <112.1523c9f7.2a7c50e1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208021425040.5733-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 2 Aug 2002 Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> Whatever benefits they bring I think are outweighed by the negatives.  I'd 
> dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their 
> traditional roles of nurse and clerk.  If the US military is so hard-up for 
> warm bodies that it really needs females, then I say reinstitute the WACS and 
> WAVES and whatever else, with their own standards and their own chain of 
> command, and put them in charge of stateside facilities like hospitals and 
> supply depots and personnel offices so men are freed up for more forward 
> duties.

I've been trying to decide whether or not to killfile you for a while--
thanks for helping me out.
**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 15:26:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Fri Aug  2 14:26:43 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <3D4B05EA.8754.5198B91@localhost>
Message-ID: <000001c23a6b$4f795aa0$6501a8c0@Darla>

> However in a fighter you probably are
> all alone, the nearest friendly is tens of kilometers away and there's
> nobody to see if you stand as a "hero" or run as a "coward".
> 
> Personally I don't think the massed fighter approach works over the
long
> term due to the cost in highly trained crew. However, I can well see
it
> being
> not that uncommon, especially when one side feels desperate.
> 

I can't agree that the isolation of the cockpit would do that.  I've
worked with a lot of RL fighter pilots, both Air Force and Navy, and for
the most part they would rather die than look bad, ESPECIALLY in front
of the rest of the squadron.

TWB


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 15:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Fri Aug  2 14:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CF9@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <000001c23a6d$ab25c260$6501a8c0@Darla>

> if the tables were turned. I have no doubt the Axis powers, had they
won,
> would have gone on a rampage of looting, rape, genocide, and
destruction
> that would boggle the mind, and luckily remains in the realm of
> science-fiction.

In fact, the Axis powers DID go on a rampage of looting, rape, genocide
and destruction.  That is why they had to be stopped.

TWB


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 15:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug  2 14:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CF9@USCHM203>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CF9@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <m3fzxxj5gp.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> writes:
> 
> Personally, I find it hard to shed many tears for Hiroshima,
> Nagasaki, or Dresden.

I dunno--the firebombing of Dresden is IMHO one of the worst war
crimes committed by the US.  Esp. the bit about destroying emergency
vehicles...

That no-one was ever strung up for it is a travesty.  We're supposed
to be better than that.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The betterment of fools, Goethe tells us, is the appropriate business of
other fools.  The Underground Grammarian does not seek to educate
anyone.  We intend rather to ridicule, humiliate, and infuriate those
who abuse our language not so that they will do better but so that they
will stop using language entirely or at least go away.
                         --The Underground Grammarian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 15:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dave Strebe)
Date: Fri Aug  2 14:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208021425040.5733-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <02Aug2.151432pdt.119054@gw.city.vancouver.bc.ca>

> On Fri, 2 Aug 2002 Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

<SNIP>

> I've been trying to decide whether or not to killfile you for a while--
> thanks for helping me out.

 Moi aussi.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 15:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug  2 14:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <00aa01c23a5c$4f293ca0$5d0bbd50@martinjd>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
 <m3ofclg93m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
 <004301c23a04$8cdeff60$0112bd50@martinjd>
 <m3eldhkv8o.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
 <00aa01c23a5c$4f293ca0$5d0bbd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <m3bs8lj5c2.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> writes:
>
> > > There are simulator drawbacks--`simulator sickness--which is
> > > kind of psychosomatic motion sickness, can begin to manifest
> > > itself on real missions (or cause them to not do certain things
> > > because they expect sim sickness).
> >
> > Again, a sufficiently advanced computer (I'm talking about Moore's
> > law for 2,000 years: capacity increasing by 1.5 every 1.5 years
> > for 2,000 years is a 6.1425e234 increase; by 2 every 2 years is a
> > 1.0715e301 increase) can model sufficiently well that one will
> > experience bad effects exactly as in real life...
> 
> Okay, if you can manage to simulate g stress and all the other stuff
> too, then my comment above doesn't apply.  If not, it does. You need
> more than an amazing computer for this.  Which translates to again,
> I don't believe in perfect simulators.'

Well, if you can damp inertia and can create artificial gravity, I'm
pretty certain that you can fake high-g effects (or rather, create
them).  I don't think that the physics would necessarily be all that
difficult; trivial, probably, for a society which has those things.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
When the water of a place is bad it is safest to drink none that has not
been filtered through either the berry of a grape, or else a tub of malt.
These are the most reliable filters yet invented.        --Samuel Butler

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <m3ofclg93m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <000001c23a70$28580340$6501a8c0@Darla>

> 
> You really think that a computer can be powerful enough to simulate
> all that and yet not have safeguards to prevent death?  I would
> imagine that it'd be just like a modern simulator: screw up and you
> get the `shatter screen.'
> 
> Although it could also be used to give you a nasty shock or something
> every time you screw up...
> 

Not necessarily.  I was working on an F-15 trainer a few years ago and
stepped out of the seat to reach a terminal while leaving the aircraft
"in flight".  It took a bit longer that I thought it would, and the
uncontrolled simulated jet ended up impacting the "earth" at Mach
1.something.  

The control loader on the stick modeled stick forces due to the
accelerations of the aircraft, so in response to the massive g-loading
of the crash, drove the stick violently aft.  It is my good fortune that
I was not in the way of the stick when it drove aft, since it hit the
stops hard enough to snap a stainless steel cable in the control loader.


Needless to say, we added some safety limits in this area before the
trainer got delivered.

Tom Barnes


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <3D4B91FA.31831.2C81F6@localhost>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHGEPBIJAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

I'm not sure I follow this bit, and I think some of your numbers are a 
little off, too. How's it stack up to cruisers with (relatively) light 
spinal PAWS?

-- 
>>>>>>>>>>>>
One would need numbers but add 7 (agility 6 + 1 [size modifier for 
size A]) plus the difference in computer rating and the PAW to hit 
number to arrive at the number you have to roll higher then to hit.  

At best you hit one Wombat a bit worse then half the time, at worst you 
need a ten or better.  

Anyway, once you hit, you only get the first twelve hit types to play
with being a spinal mount. The Wombat carries 3 crew replacements, has
an extra computer and bridge.  It lacks a jump drive and screens 
and keeps its agility for 2 PP factor losses.  Fuel tank shattered and
weapons hits are your only mission kills.  Power Plant hit beyond 2
still leave the Wombat functional, it looses agility.  It takes 8 PP hits
to render the Meson gun un-operational

Fire the other way depends on the other ship,  Knock off nine for the 
computer.    Target numbers and damage table modifier depend on the target.

Please recall, this is not an uber weapon, it is a niche ship.  However it
is a surprisingly survivable one considering it costs about as much as the
main gun of a capital ship and displaces 1000 tons.  As SDB's these would
be extremely effective and carried as a rider, I see this as a very useful
mason artillery support platform or em mass to bulldog battlewagons.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
Message-ID: <151.11d787f6.2a7c5dcb@aol.com>

 > >Also, does a crippled fighter neccessarily mean dead crewman?
 >
 > using ct tables, a factor 9 salvo against a 90 ton fighter results in 9
 > critical hits, of which a roll of 2 or 10 ( 1/36 + 3/36 ) represent 
immediate
 > crew death (we'll ignore the presence or absence of rescue vessels, the
 > consequences to a pilot of loss of power in his ship, etc).  this results 
in
 > a ( 1 - ( 32 / 36 ) ^ 9 ) or a 65.4% chance of crew death upon being hit.  
I
 > don't know what typical fighter-pilot survival rates are, but I'll bet 
that's
 > comparable to those of japanese zero's in ww2.

 >The pilot casualty rates you quote above are much too high, IMHO.  They are 
only
 >true if the attacker is using TL15 100-ton meson gun bays or if the fighter 
is
 >unarmored.

In CT HG TL15 100-ton meson guns cannot hit fighters except at short range, 
and then only on 12+.  I wasn't considering meson guns, they're worthless 
against fighters.

A 90-ton CT HG TL15 fighter will have militarily-insignifcant armor.  90 
tons, -18 tons bridge, -15.3 tons maneuver 6, -1 PMS turret, -13 model 9 
computer, -18.4 power plant, -18.4 power plant fuel, -2 crew cabin, -1 
missile magazine, leaves 2.9.  Assuming no low berths, cargo, air lock, or 
other housekeeping / survival aids for the crew then 2.9 tons will support 
armor 2, which will remove the effects of one automatic critical hit.  Final 
crew death rate from automatic critical hits will be ( 1 - ( 32/36 ) ^ 8 ) 
for a total of 61.0%.  This does not count the normal damage from the hit, 
3/36 of which will be interior explosions or critical hits.  You can do the 
math for those.

IMTU computers are a normal part of bridge equipment, and do not consume 
space or energy, so my fighters _do_ have armor 15.  But no-one else seems to 
do this.

 >Fighters IMTU carry maximum armor.  This would reduce the non-meson crits 
 >listed above from 9 to 2, with a corresponding increase in crew survival.

Yes, it does -- but then you're not using CT HG, which is what I was talking 
about.  Or, if you are, then the fighters will either have ineffective 
computers or be severely slow, either of which will leave them vulnerable to 
rapid incapacitation.

 >I agree that a sub-100dT fighter cannot carry a weapon which can hurt a TL15
 >capital ship, mostly because of the difference in computer size.  This is 
why the
 >"fighters" in the smoke test were actually 1000dT boats with factor-9 
missile
 >bays.

Your fighters were 1000 tons?!!

I think we need standardization of terms.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
Message-ID: <a4.29dd5f76.2a7c5f34@aol.com>

 >>> including not commenting on how a
 >>> Washington police officer can be hired with felony convictions on his/her
 >>> record, provided that none were more recent than ten years ago at the 
time
 >>> of application.
 >> 
 >> Well, to be fair, if they didn't follow this hiring policy then could they
 >> find anyone to hire?
 >
 >But they couldn't carry a gun.  They'd be a prohibited person under Federal
 >law, unless they had filed for and received a 'relief from disability' from
 >the ATF.  And congress has stopped funding this program, so none are being
 >done.

That's a problem only if you intend to enforce the law.  Since it's not a 
problem for them then the conclusion to be drawn is obvious.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <d1.1c449e1a.2a7c6094@aol.com>

 >  As an aside, why are you not discussing the frigates that you 
 >had posited as the sole class of warship in the post to which I
 >was responding?

Because the question dealt specifically with capital ship viability.  It was 
late, I just latched onto fighters and did the math.  You can do the same 
math for the frigates if you like.  Capital ships will do better against the 
frigates, but they'll still lose fairly badly.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] max hull size
Message-ID: <ff.1ba47012.2a7c6111@aol.com>

 >Again, I'm assuming CT.  Let's see .... at tech 12, max hull size is 
199,999 
 
   <1 MT (USP X) per HG2, pps. 26 & 28.

Sorry -- CT HG.  I don't know what HG2 does.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <20020802224421.60004.qmail@web20414.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>

>"John T. Kwon" wrote:
>
>>I think I see a pattern here...
>>
>>long time Traveller player...
>>joins the military (some of us wished we did)...

[deletion]

>After "mustering out", I spent alot of time doing the usual PC
thing,
>hanging around in pubs looking for something exciting to do.
>
>SPOILER ALERT
[deletion]
>Unfortunately, though I met many fascinating (and in some cases 
>possibly alien) characters, I was never asked to rescue a senator
>from an Imperial prison hulk, reunite a Chirper with his siblings, 

Well, I never joined the military, but I did work for the Post Office
one summer, and I have on many occasions in my career as a lawyer
travelled with a team of variously normal, neurotic, and psychotic
professionals to exotic, distant cities (like Denver and Minneapolis)
to review documents in conference rooms, or to interrogate witnesses
in conference rooms.  It's been an exciting life.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net><m3ofclg93m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org><004301c23a04$8cdeff60$0112bd50@martinjd><m3eldhkv8o.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org><00aa01c23a5c$4f293ca0$5d0bbd50@martinjd> <m3bs8lj5c2.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <012601c23a78$2c1d4f00$5d0bbd50@martinjd>

>
> Well, if you can damp inertia and can create artificial gravity, I'm
> pretty certain that you can fake high-g effects (or rather, create
> them).  I don't think that the physics would necessarily be all that
> difficult; trivial, probably, for a society which has those things.
>

If you can do these things, then simulator problems I've outlined are
greatly diminished (most of them). I don't imagine this sort of thing is
available for $35 in a playstation game, though.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208021425040.5733-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <013101c23a78$5f05d720$5d0bbd50@martinjd>

>
> > Whatever benefits they bring I think are outweighed by the negatives.
I'd
> > dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their
> > traditional roles of nurse and clerk.  If the US military is so hard-up
for
> > warm bodies that it really needs females, then I say reinstitute the
WACS and
> > WAVES and whatever else, with their own standards and their own chain of
> > command, and put them in charge of stateside facilities like hospitals
and
> > supply depots and personnel offices so men are freed up for more forward
> > duties.


Such sweeping prejudice. I am impressed.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <112.1523c9f7.2a7c50e1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <014a01c23a78$a159d220$5d0bbd50@martinjd>

>
> I've seen a handful.  Offsetting this, I've seen companies where every
single
> corporal  and several sergeants get busted down for sex with the female
> privates.  I've seen active duty females refuse orders to perform physical
> tasks (like dumping trash cans) and tell sergeants to their face to "get a
> male to do it".  I've seen females who cannot, and I mean cannot, pass
their
> limited physical fitness tests, who can't do  even seven pushups, but who
> still remain in units.  I've seen females who cannot climb the ladder from
> the shaft alley to the second deck and who have to be helped.  I've seen
> females finish their expensive training and then promptly be discharged
> because they're pregnant.

Yeah, and I've seen human beings who were skilled and competent and
determined and motivated and just plain better than me being kept down
because they were born female. You can't damn half the human race on a
generality.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in travell
Message-ID: <memo.561258@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <F244ozCsVINDnKgXhLy00004901@hotmail.com>
> >The US Army did studies in which they discovered that the
> >longest that a solider can stay in a combat zone is about
> >100 days.  After that, he falls apart.  So the Army began
> >rotating units to rest areas so they could recharge a little
> >and get roaring drunk and contract VD before going back
> >into the line.  It will be harder for the Imperium to do this,
> >but I think it would be a priority to establish some sort of
> >safe zone for the troops.
> 
> It's an old saw that military service is extended periods of
> boredom punctuated by short periods of stark terror.  Imagine
> if an army used sleeper ships to move their troops around...
> soldiers whose military service consisted of sleeping through
> the extended periods of boredom, and only being awake for the
> periods of stark terror.
> 
> That kind of setup might be cheap when it came to starship
> life support costs, but I imagine the impact on the soldiers'
> psyches would be extreme.
 
Many, many years ago I played in a Traveller game where a vicious little 
war had broken out in the sector we happened to be in. While the rest of 
the party thought about mercenary tickets or intelligence gathering, I 
went off and found an unused planet somewhere about half way between the 
warring factions and set up a really big R&R centre, the only rule was no 
weapons and the war got left outside. Place was generally swarming with 
troops from both sides, and I made a pile :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:55:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:55:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <memo.561259@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <02Aug2.151432pdt.119054@gw.city.vancouver.bc.ca>
> > On Fri, 2 Aug 2002 Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> 
> <SNIP>
> 
> > I've been trying to decide whether or not to killfile you for a 
> > while--
> > thanks for helping me out.
> 
>  Moi aussi.

I am laughing too hard to issue the requisite command.

Mexal.
former infantry sergeant of the female persuasion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <20020802225803.30867.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Flykiller@aol.com

>>The Germans, and particularly the Japanese were horribly
>>dehumanized.  We made our enemies into monsters so then it was OK 
>>to exterminate them.
>
>Seems to be part of the human condition.  Not only is the enemy an 
>inhuman monster and responsible for any and all evil, _we_ are pure
>as the wind-driven snow in any and all circumstances.  "It's Al
>Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"

This is indeed an old tradition.  The German propagandists in WW2
created the Untermensch to describe various Slavic and Jewish
enemies, and used horrific cartoons to depict them ("Das ist der
Untermensch:  Gott hilf uns von solche wie diesen!" I recall one
saying).  

Indeed, the Battle of Maldon, an English poem from about 900AD,
concerns a fight between Angles (maybe Saxons; I forget) and Vikings.
 The Angles are named and give brave and gallant speeches as they
die.  The Vikings are always called "the wolvish Viking" ("tha
wulflic wicinga"), and they always insult the Angles whom they are
killing.  ("Feelthy English whose mother was a hamster ..." sorry,
wrong piece of English literature.)

--Glenn


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 17:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 16:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Civility APOLOGY
Message-ID: <36.2b6babed.2a7c6bba@aol.com>

 >>     "Yes, basking in verbally-asserted superiority is indeed much more 
 >pleasant than risking actual defeat.  But of course indulging in this makes 
 >you a (description deleted by LEW)"
 > 
 > 
 >Sir,
 >
 >     This post was completely uncalled for, in very poor taste, and little 
 >more than flame bait.  Posting such a message was definitely beneath you.  
I 
 >cannot believe you would normally behave in such a manner.  Passions may be 
 >running high on both sides of this discussion, but that doesn't mean we 
need 
 >to lower ourselves and make personal attacks.
 >     All of us on the List have been guilty of such behavior in the past, 
 >myself especially, but we all also try to conduct ourselves in as civil a 
 >manner as possible.  Because we're human, sometimes we fail.  However, we 
 >all still try.
 >    Your opinions and views have kicked off quite an interesting thread 
 >here on the List.  I have found your responses to other threads interesting 
 >also.  However, posting a message such as the one in question will do 
little 
 >more than earn you a place in many members' kill files.  Your posts, 
 >observations, and opinions deserve a better fate than that.
 >     I look forward to your future posts on a variety of threads and feel 
 >certain that you will conduct yourself in a truly civil manner.
 >
 > 
 >     Sincerely,
 >     William R. Cameron, aka Larsen E. Whipsnade

How can I answer such courteousness?

I fully apologize to Walt Smith, and withdraw my statement without further 
comment.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 17:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 16:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Blowing holes in Japan (was " Re Patton")
References: <00d901c23a66$05486160$4a2bf7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <3D4B1239.5090805@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Fred Ramen wrote:

> Oh, I agree that the Stalin didn't want to expand the conflict any more than
> Truman did. My point was merely that it would have been extremely unlikely
> for the Soviets to allow a divided Japan (as posited in Mr. Whipsnade's
> original post) to be used as a staging area for American intervention in
> Korea (or Vietnam, for that matter).
> 
> Of course, I may be overstating the importance of Japan to US Pacific
> security, and am quite open to being corrected in this regard.

Actually, the main reason we used Japan as the staging area was because 
we were there and it was close.

Had we been denied the use of Japan, we'd have used the Phillipines instead.

Same thing goes for Vietnam.

Then again, had it come to a divided Japan a 'la Germany, the whole Cold 
War thing would have gone quite differently. Vietnam would probably not 
have happened in any way like it did.

(Also, do not forget that during the Korean War, Germany was divided, 
but not like it was later...the Berlin Wall didn't go up until the 60's, 
and we'd just shown Stalin we were willing to go toe-to-toe over Germany 
during the Berlin Airlift. )

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 17:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 16:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <200208022348.g72Nmuw05627@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
>Subject: RE: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
...
>A Wombat swarmers is an anti capital ship weapon.
...
>ARMAMENT
>1 100-ton Meson Bay (Factor-9)

  The 12+ to penetrate a USP one Meson Screen isn't a concern?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 17:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Fri Aug  2 16:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <20020802194954.28a957e7c9c445afb801cb79a22bb3ad.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>On 2 Aug 2002 at 10:28, Cheng Tseng wrote:
>
>> Well, it would have greatly improved the British chances of attacking the
>> German ships if it did not take until just before the Germans were passing
>> the Straits of Dover to even know they were at sea.  At least then, the
>> Brits could have had time to assemble an all-out attack instead of send the
>> aircrafts in dribbles and drabs which allowed the Luftwaffe to kill them.
>> One of Adolf Galland's finer moments, providing air cover for the cruisers.
>
>Yep. It also helped that somewhere in the British communications chain 
>they transformed from 30,000 ton battlecruisers at 30 knots to 20,000 
>ton merchants at 20 knots, so the British pilots were all firing their 
>torpedos with their sights set incorrectly.

Even today, I am still amazed just how lucky the Germans were.  Even with
all their planning, they still could not have predicted the good fortune
they actually got.

Running out of Brest before just about everybody on the British side
believing they would (Bertram Ramsey was apparently the only British
commanding officer who thought the S, G and PRINZ EUGEN would make the dash
so soon.).  Managing to do so at the time the submarine assigned to monitor
Brest was standing out to charge her batteries.  Evading all THREE maritime
search aircraft patrol lines either because the aircrafts had busted
equipment or extremely bad flying weather.  Having so few British torpedo
aircrafts facing them, and having that number cut down even more because the
mobile torpedor service and rearmament unit providing the torpedors got
bogged down in a snow storm.  The list is just mind-boggling.

Okay, I must be suffering from premature Alzheimer's.  There was Swordfishes
during the Dash.  Ouch, one entire flight completely wiped out, with no
survivors.  At least something like half the other flight crews manage to
escape with their lives.

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

 My Sale List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
 My Want List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: max hull size
Message-ID: <200208030007.g7307Bw08657@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Flykiller@aol.com
>Subject: [TML] max hull size
...
> >Again, I'm assuming CT.  Let's see .... at tech 12, max hull size is 
>199,999 
> 
>   <1 MT (USP X) per HG2, pps. 26 & 28.
>
>Sorry -- CT HG.  I don't know what HG2 does.

  OMG - someone _uses_ HG1?! I only got a copy by accident...
neat read, though.

  BTW, do the Reprints include both editions of HG?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Meduim Navies
Message-ID: <3D4B1F7E.736A3F94@mail.cswnet.com>

This may have gotten lost in my last post and the minor flame spat 
going on, so I'll throw it out again and see if anyone bites.

What would the Imperuim see as the maximum allowable size, maximum
allowable quantitative/qualitative weaponry, for a mercenary ship?

Presumabley they would frown on paws and meson guns, but would they
allow big bay weapons?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption (was: warship optimization)
References: <F176AUfKRfcjcMzfoV100024006@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B20D8.AB8EE248@pobox.com>


"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:

> From: Bill Hopper <whopper@pobox.com>
>
>      "I agree that a sub-100dT fighter cannot carry a weapon which can hurt
> a TL15 capital ship, mostly because of the difference in computer size.
> This is why the "fighters" in the smoke test were actually 1000dT boats with
> factor-9 missile bays."
>
> Mr. Hopper,
>
>      The fighter designs used in the smoke tests I was referring to were
> sub-100Ton types.  They were also run at TL12.  Here are the USPs:

I apologize for my confusion.  I must have confused a couple of threads.  I
remembered the missile boat discussion and mistakenly thought it was what you
referred to.

WKH


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <000001c23a6b$4f795aa0$6501a8c0@Darla>
Message-ID: <B9706F61.67837%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/2/02 2:26 PM, Thomas Barnes at twb3@charter.net wrote:

>> However in a fighter you probably are
> 
> I can't agree that the isolation of the cockpit would do that.  I've
> worked with a lot of RL fighter pilots, both Air Force and Navy, and for
> the most part they would rather die than look bad, ESPECIALLY in front
> of the rest of the squadron.

This goes back to what I was saying earlier about the importance of small
groups in the military.  People often do dangerous and risky things for no
other reason than to not look bad in front of their squad mates, or just not
let them down.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] max hull size
References: <ff.1ba47012.2a7c6111@aol.com>
Message-ID: <009d01c23a84$ad976730$7400a8c0@matt>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
>> Again, I'm assuming CT.  Let's see .... at tech 12, max hull size is
>> 199,999
>
>    <1 MT (USP X) per HG2, pps. 26 & 28.
>
> Sorry -- CT HG.  I don't know what HG2 does.

HG2 is CT Book 5: High Guard, 2nd edition.

It was published in 1980, replacing the 1st edition published in 1979. There
was a series of articles in JTAS at the time on updating your version from
1st to 2nd to save you buying a new copy. Obviously this passed you by.

The version in the CT Reprints is HG2.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <200208030033.LYB00224@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Glenn M. Goffin" says
>I have on many occasions in my career as a lawyer

Often, I have marvelled at how some of the more intelligent 
people I have met (successful intelligent people, that is) 
have a carefully selected lawyer and a carefully selected 
accountant.

Most Traveller parties need a full time lawyer - but how many 
have you seen with one? 
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <99.2a2d475a.2a779a93@aol.com> <3D4A0109.D48E52E6@pobox.com> <005801c23a04$ec770b20$0112bd50@martinjd> <006401c23a0f$3ca9da00$7400a8c0@matt> <003201c23a14$66243100$7d03bd50@martinjd> <00a601c23a14$be1ddbe0$7400a8c0@matt> <005901c23a1d$16700d60$7d03bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3D4B277E.4E21AE33@pobox.com>

Matt, Martin,
I agree with both points presented below.  I think fighters should be more
effective in a coordinated, massed attack than they are individually.  I also
agree that 'coordinated' is the key term.

My solution is to group fighters into a 'squadron' so that their weapons can be
combined into one battery. But to do so, the squadrom must have a controlling or
'master' fighter.  The squadron's combined attack is treated as if it is one
battery, and uses the rating of the computer in the controlling fighter with an
additional -1 modifier.

All fighters in a squadron have to be of the same type, with the same agility.
Damaged fighters drop out of the squadron and become individuals.

So a squadron of 10 fighters, each with a triple laser turret, and controlled by
a master fighter with a model 8 computer, would attack as a single code-9
battery fired by a model 7 computer.

If the master fighter is destroyed, the squadron disintegrates into 10
individual fighters.  If a fighter is damaged or destroyed, the battery's rating
is reduced appropriately.  Undamaged fighters can be re-integrated into
squadrons by spending a turn in the reserve with a new master.

Role-playing never came up in relation to this, but for role-playing purposes I
would have the master fighter making recommendations to the pilots of the
squadron, perhaps through a Heads Up Display.  The individual pilots could
disregard the recommendations if they were willing to accept the consequences.

WKH

MJ Dougherty wrote:

> > > Why do you want fighters to be more effective?
> >
> > So that they can have an outside possibility of damaging Capital ships at
> > high TL
>
> And again, why do you want this? Barring me swallowing some and suffering
> some strange kind of poisoning, no amount of flies can beat me in a straight
> fight. My feeling is that fightrers are good for screening and keeping
> merchies in line. Big ships are for killing big ships.
>
> > >
> > > I see the concept, though you'd have to simulate C3 breakdowns, loss
> > > of cohesion etc
> >
> > Sure, just as soon as we do the same for the escorting PD ships of the
> > defending Fleet...
>
> Indeed, though coordinaitng a useful fighter attack requires external comms.
> Escorts can operate on internal comms (hard to jam) and even independently,
> can be useful if the captains are smart. Uncoordinated fighters are just as
> big mess.
>
> >
> > HG is pretty abstract anyway, so this level of detail is unnecessary IMHO.
> > All I am doing is letting Fighters act like Turrets. If several turrets
> can
> > concentrate their fire to increase their effectiveness, why can't several
> > fighters?
>
> Becuase turrets are controlled with internal comms, hardwired through the
> ship, while ifghters have to talk externally and are subject to jamming or
> other problems. And becuase you don't get a battery of turrests scattering
> due to evasion and having to reform.
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <99.2a2d475a.2a779a93@aol.com> <3D4A0109.D48E52E6@pobox.com> <005801c23a04$ec770b20$0112bd50@martinjd> <006401c23a0f$3ca9da00$7400a8c0@matt> <003201c23a14$66243100$7d03bd50@martinjd> <00a601c23a14$be1ddbe0$7400a8c0@matt> <005901c23a1d$16700d60$7d03bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3D4B2746.90DDF4D1@pobox.com>

Matt, Martin,
I agree with both points presented below.  I think fighters should be more
effective in a coordinated, massed attack than they are individually.  I also
agree that 'coordinated' is the key term.

My solution is to group fighters into a 'squadron' so that their weapons can be
combined into one battery. But to do so, the squadrom must have a controlling or
'master' fighter.  The squadron's combined attack is treated as if it is one
battery, and uses the rating of the computer in the controlling fighter with an
additional -1 modifier.

All fighters in a squadron have to be of the same type, with the same agility.
Damaged fighters drop out of the squadron and become individuals.

So a squadron of 10 fighters, each with a triple laser turret, and controlled by
a master fighter with a model 8 computer, would attack as a single code-9
battery fired by a model 7 computer.

If the master fighter is destroyed, the squadron disintegrates into 10
individual fighters.  If a fighter is damaged or destroyed, the battery's rating
is reduced appropriately.  Undamaged fighters can be re-integrated into
squadrons by spending a turn in the reserve with a new master.

Role-playing never came up in relation to this, but for role-playing purposes I
would have the master fighter making recommendations to the pilots of the
squadron, perhaps through a Heads Up Display.  The individual pilots could
disregard the recommendations if they were willing to accept the consequences.

WKH

MJ Dougherty wrote:

> > > Why do you want fighters to be more effective?
> >
> > So that they can have an outside possibility of damaging Capital ships at
> > high TL
>
> And again, why do you want this? Barring me swallowing some and suffering
> some strange kind of poisoning, no amount of flies can beat me in a straight
> fight. My feeling is that fightrers are good for screening and keeping
> merchies in line. Big ships are for killing big ships.
>
> > >
> > > I see the concept, though you'd have to simulate C3 breakdowns, loss
> > > of cohesion etc
> >
> > Sure, just as soon as we do the same for the escorting PD ships of the
> > defending Fleet...
>
> Indeed, though coordinaitng a useful fighter attack requires external comms.
> Escorts can operate on internal comms (hard to jam) and even independently,
> can be useful if the captains are smart. Uncoordinated fighters are just as
> big mess.
>
> >
> > HG is pretty abstract anyway, so this level of detail is unnecessary IMHO.
> > All I am doing is letting Fighters act like Turrets. If several turrets
> can
> > concentrate their fire to increase their effectiveness, why can't several
> > fighters?
>
> Becuase turrets are controlled with internal comms, hardwired through the
> ship, while ifghters have to talk externally and are subject to jamming or
> other problems. And becuase you don't get a battery of turrests scattering
> due to evasion and having to reform.
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: troll optimization on the TML
Message-ID: <200208030048.LYB01066@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mexal says
>I am laughing too hard to issue the requisite command.
>
>Mexal.
>former infantry sergeant of the female persuasion.

Mex, you need to have Fly run around the parade ground until 
you get tired...
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:50:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:50:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re: max hull size
Message-ID: <200208030049.LYB01145@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Steven Hudson asks
>  BTW, do the Reprints include both editions of HG?

Nope. The reprints have HG2 (which was, in its time, issued 
very briefly).
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:53:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:53:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <014a01c23a78$a159d220$5d0bbd50@martinjd>
References: <112.1523c9f7.2a7c50e1@aol.com>
 <014a01c23a78$a159d220$5d0bbd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <m3znw4epbc.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> writes:
> 
> Yeah, and I've seen human beings who were skilled and competent and
> determined and motivated and just plain better than me being kept
> down because they were born female.  You can't damn half the human
> race on a generality.

And I daresay that if we have women serving in full combat capacity
under the regimes of either seperate standards (i.e. where they must
not meet the same standards as men) or reduced standards (e.g. I
understand that two-man stretcher teams are now four or more), we will
see plenty of human beings who die miserably because their comrades
are not up to the task.

And I hardly think that shielding from death and destruction is
`damning.'  Rather a nice thing to do, as a matter of fact.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
There has grown in the minds of certain groups in this country the
idea that just because a man or corporation has made a profit out of
the public for a number of years, the government and the courts are
charged with guaranteeing such profit in the future, even in the face
of changing circumstances and contrary to public interest.  This
strange doctrine is supported by neither statue or common law.  Neither
corporations or individuals have the right to come into court and ask
that the clock of history be stopped, or turned back.
                  --Robert Heinlein, Life Line, 1939

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Meduim Navies
Message-ID: <200208030055.LYB01410@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Roseberry says
>What would the Imperuim see as the maximum allowable size, 
>maximum allowable quantitative/qualitative weaponry, for a 
>mercenary ship?
>

I believe that it should not be so much ship size, as a 
merchant could very well be a 100,000 ton ship.

As for the quantity of weaponry, that should be dealt with in 
combination with the quality.  I think that the limitation 
should be "is is a weapon of mass destruction?"

Along those lines, I think that most fusion weapons should be 
OK, since they are short range. You would have to be in range 
of planetary defenses to use them.  

PAWS of any size should be OK.  They do not penetrate 
atmospheres, and are not wide area effects weapons.

Meson guns - probably a no no in any size or quantity.

No nuclear warheads.

I would think that lasers would have to be of a wavelength 
that is guaranteed to be absorbed by atmosphere.  There are 
some tunable deuterium flouride lasers today that experience 
close to zero loss over their operational range in 
atmosphere.  These could be effective weapons of 
assassination - something I wouldn't want mercenaries to have.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 19:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Barnett-Lewis)
Date: Fri Aug  2 18:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <20020802231503.19852.60096.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B3637.35538EB8@mailbag.com>

Flykiller@aol.com said:
> Whatever benefits they bring I think are outweighed by the negatives.  I'd
> dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their
> traditional roles of nurse and clerk.  If the US military is so hard-up for
> warm bodies that it really needs females, then I say reinstitute the WACS and
> WAVES and whatever else, with their own standards and their own chain of
> command, and put them in charge of stateside facilities like hospitals and
> supply depots and personnel offices so men are freed up for more forward
> duties.
>

Pity. I had thought not to killfile you. Now I know better. 

Not quite Clint, yet even Clint had some intellegent moments.

For the record, as a male US Army NCO, I had far fewer problems with
female soldiers than with certain of my own physical gender.

William
Ex-E5 USA
19E, 19D, 11B, 96B
-- 
You better watch out   What you wish for;
It better be worth it  So much to die for.
		       Courtney Love

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 20:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 19:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <m3znw4epbc.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <B97089CA.67857%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/2/02 5:52 PM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> And I daresay that if we have women serving in full combat capacity
> under the regimes of either seperate standards (i.e. where they must
> not meet the same standards as men) or reduced standards (e.g. I
> understand that two-man stretcher teams are now four or more), we will
> see plenty of human beings who die miserably because their comrades
> are not up to the task.
> 
> And I hardly think that shielding from death and destruction is
> `damning.'  Rather a nice thing to do, as a matter of fact.

But this is the TML, and one supposes that in the 57th century, the measure
of a sophont's fitness for a particular duty is tied to their ability to
perform it.  One may assume that the Imperium establishes baseline
requirements for, say an MOS, and holds to those standards regardless of
race or gender.  This may result in a higher proportion of males in a
particular MOS, perhaps females in another.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 20:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  2 19:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <200208021317.LXD04141@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208021317.LXD04141@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020803121831.A14679@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> A large system like this would have to maintain a considerable
> number of ships in order to defend these assets,

Oh, I agree entirely.  The post upon which I was commenting used the
Battle of the Atlantic as an example of how commerce raiders might
cripple your economy.  I was just pointing out that systems in
Traveller are hundreds of times less dependent upon external trade
than England was.

In-system commerce raiding in Traveller is a different matter
entirely.  The ability of a small enemy force to jump in nearly
anywhere, do some damage and pop out again is extremely difficult to
defend against.  However, the defending ships do not need jump drives
or jump fuel, which makes them significantly cheaper and hence able to
pack a lot more punch for a given size/cost.  Important planets have
their supplies locally produced, which greatly simplifies logistics.



> and protect shipping between these points.  Convoys may be forced to
> use jump ships to do intrasystem jumps to avoid raiders,

Not likely, I would think.  That would cripple your economy worse than
losing 70% of your ships.  You'd be better off escorting them in
normal space, since non-jump ships are so much cheaper than jump
capable ones.

It should not be forgotten that any information the raiders have must
always be at least two weeks out of date by the time they strike.


> and ships inbound/outbound from the system would have to jump at the
> 100D limit without fail after being escorted the entire distance to
> and from the port.

No.  The raider ships aren't going to strike inside the 100D limit of
any meaningful system.

1) If they try, the planetary defences *will* make mincemeat of them
in short order.

2) It is much riskier for them to hit the 'jump' button if they meet
something nastier than them.  And they will, see (1).

3) Their information is two weeks out of date.  Their arrival time is
uncertain to at least a few hours.  They have to strike when a target
is at least half-way out, in the right direction, but hasn't reached
the limit yet.  That's a pretty narrow window, and even then requires
that no sizable armed vessels be nearby.


> In essence, laying siege to such a system might first mean whittling
> down the system defense boats and local fighters with fighter raids
> and light commerce raiders.  You might, after a time, be left only
> with your larger monitors, port defenses, and planetary defense
> sites.

I think you're ignoring the effect of your own losses of any non-jump
ships, and of local replenishment.  You've got a much longer supply
line.


> Ships as small as fighters may also lay mines on courses to sweep
> through traffic areas.

Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.
Another problem is that "high traffic areas" change with the relative
positions of the planets, and even then they will be *very* sparse.

A typical "trading lane" between planets would probably be a region a
few hundred million kilometres long with an average cross-section of a
few tens of trillions of square kilometres.  How many mines do you
propose to put in it?

I could imagine trying to mine a gas-giant; that might work since they
could be rendered undetectable by the atmosphere and yet be within
range of a intruding craft.  However, you would almost certainly be
hit by any pre-existing mines or other defences that were in place
while you were trying to lay them.


>  I would bet that for such an advanced system, while it might well
> be able to subsist on its own, it won't profit as much, especially
> if it engages in trade with a nearby world of similar stature.

Given that most major worlds have trade less than 0.2% of GWP, profits
will be virtually untouched.  Even the major neighbouring worlds of
Rhylanor and Porozlo have trade with each other that is only 1% of
their GWPs.  Look at the countries that have trade somewhere around
0.4% of your nation's GDP, and think about how strong an effect there
would be on your economy if you lost the ability to trade with one of
them in wartime.


> A continuous series of light hit and run raids would force 
> diversion of assets you would ordinarily use elsewhere,

You would also suffer pretty significant attrition yourself, and your
ships are both more expensive and harder to replace.


But overall, I agree that insystem raiding might be a viable tactic.
Keep the raids to areas outside a planet's 100D limit, though.  Target
commerce routes in interplanetary space.  Have excellent sensors to
spot commercial traffic at very long range.  Have high enough thrust
that you can reach targets before the system defences do.  Don't
bother with a stealthy ship -- your jump flash will be spotted anyway,
and you will be tracked automatically.  Use a large number of
alternate refuelling locations in the outer system or in deep space.

The biggest problem for the defender is the ability for the raider to
jump out whenever things are looking risky, without any possibility of
pursuit.  Q-ships are about the only reasonable counter I can think of
at the moment, and even then only to the extent that they can maul the
raiders in the two rounds it takes for them to discover their error
and jump out.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 20:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug  2 19:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <B97089CA.67857%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B97089CA.67857%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m3vg6sejwf.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> 
> But this is the TML, and one supposes that in the 57th century, the
> measure of a sophont's fitness for a particular duty is tied to
> their ability to perform it.  One may assume that the Imperium
> establishes baseline requirements for, say an MOS, and holds to
> those standards regardless of race or gender.  This may result in a
> higher proportion of males in a particular MOS, perhaps females in
> another.

Yep.  I've heard, for example, a theory that women might actually make
better fighter pilots, due to endurance or soemthing like that.
They're also supposed to be better in things like radar rooms.  But
I'm certainly no expert on gender differences.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
French General: `I knew it.  You Germans are only useful as garrison soldiers.'
German Colonel: `True.  In the last war, we garrisoned Paris, Nice, Lyon...'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 20:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Aug  2 19:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Baboon Class Missile Frigate CREWS
References: <20020802231503.19852.60096.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00f401c23a99$36e54e80$c15d8690@computer>

> From: Flykiller@aol.com
> They are too inefficient to kill, yes.  But they can still be a royal pain
> in the ass.  In the end though capital ships can kill them but they can't
> kill capital ships.  Eventually they run out of missiles.

Only in the real world, not in HG. : )

For what it's worth, these things are as cheap as chips. 1500 Missile Bays
fired at one or two capital ships will mission kill them pretty thoroughly.

They do actually die a little bit too fast, but they can make a nice mess of
the capital ships that destroy them.

> I think the big problem with this kind of boat is not their inefficiency,
> but their crews.

This is less of a problem if you consider that they are basically escorts.
Suicide runs against capital ships aren't _really_ what they spend most of
their time doing.

In any case the design is a bit of a first draft. I would tweak it a bit
before I used it in a real Traveller game. If you remember that these things
are frigates, not kamikazes, they are survivable enough.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 20:52:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Aug  2 19:52:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonabo Class Missile Frigate
References: <20020802202311.16203.94229.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00f501c23a99$377c5e60$c15d8690@computer>

> From: Flykiller@aol.com
> No armor?  No low berths?  No medical facilities?  No lifeboat?  No cargo
> supplies?  Well, at least it seems to have extra crewmen -- if you can get
> anyone to sign up.  If I were the referee I'd give this boat an endurance
> of 1 - 2 months max.

It's easy enough to pump up the endurance. Making the ship a bit bigger
should do the trick, although it gets more expensive.

>  >In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships.
> Yes, in sufficient numbers, and if the capital ships are poorly designed
> and employed.  But credit for credit you'll never get the numbers
> sufficient to do so.  Meanwhile with no armor these ships will be dropping
> like flies.

It's a Jump 5 design. That's a huge chunk of displacement gone, and it means
that credit for credit they can't fight capital ships. On the other hand,
they are reasonably hard to hit, and they are relatively cheap, so you can
buy lots and lots of them.

In a strategic game they could be quite useful - they are highly mobile, and
can be all over their opponent's space. And if a whole bunch of them run
into a small group of capital ships, then, yes, they can kill them!

Their survivability is less of a problem if you consider that they wouldn't
spend most of their time attacking capital ships.

Incidentally, it goes without saying that these things kill TL E- ships
quite nicely.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com







From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 20:53:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Aug  2 19:53:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <00f301c23a99$354ad860$c15d8690@computer>

> From: Flykiller@aol.com
> I've seen a handful.  Offsetting this, I've seen companies where every
<rant snipped>
> supply depots and personnel offices so men are freed up for more forward
> duties.

I'm impressed. Your talent for alienating people is quite remarkable.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 20:54:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Aug  2 19:54:22 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Baboon Class Missile Frigate
References: <20020802062003.11635.24330.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00f601c23a99$382d5ee0$c15d8690@computer>

> From: Steven Hudson
> >In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships.
>
>   <QUIBBLE> Not really? By TL E or F dampers make these ships just
> too inefficient, IIRC?

Dampers certainly don't help! They knock out about 5 out of every 6 shot
that hits (and penetrates active defences).

A trillion credits worth of these things will only mission kill one or two
capital ships per turn, and will suffer considerable losses in return.

They probably don't work out as a match for capital ships, but they are
close enough to be useful, I suspect.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <200208021928.LXQ00226@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020802195559.46a76b08@pop.mindspring.com>

At 03:28 PM 8/2/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>"Douglas E. Berry" says
>>Doesn't stop the flow of volunteers.
>
>Me! Me! Pick me!

1. Are you nuts?

2. Really nuts?

3. Can you lie perfectly still while an enemy soldier urinates on you?

4. As in #4, but it is a National Guardsman during a training mission.

5. Do you stand and remove your hat when you hear GnySgt Carlos Hathcock
mentioned?

6. Do you believe in your heart of hearts that there is no such thing as
friendly artillery?

7. When walking in open areas, do you automatically check sight lines and
exfil routes?

8. Do you refer to your wife as your spotter?

9. Do you/Did you make every target at 300 meters but miss the 50 meter ones?

10. We mean it, are you *really* nuts?

If you answered yes to all these questions, you might have what it takes.
Just send Cr 20 and 10 7.62mm shell casings to:

Sniping for Dummies
c/o ACQ Weapons
Box 26, Gridlore Complex
Lunion Up #3
Lunion/Lunion/Spinward Marches
-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Animals who are not penguins can only wish they were.
-Chicago reader, 10/15/82

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:03:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:03:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <112.1523c9f7.2a7c50e1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020802200157.46a789a6@pop.mindspring.com>

At 05:17 PM 8/2/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>Whatever benefits they bring I think are outweighed by the negatives.  I'd 
>dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their 
>traditional roles of nurse and clerk.

I knew many excellent female soldiers, who pulled their weight and then
some.  I also saw many male soldiers who whined and always seemed to be on
profile.

The 50s ended, my dear sir.  As long as they can do the job.  Oh, and an
NCO having sex with a solider in the same chain of command is a violation
of the UCMJ.  They deserved to get busted.
-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"I am the penguin bold! We sailed the sea, to tringalee,
in search of spanish gold" - The Magic Pudding - Norman Lindsay

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:04:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:04:34 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #819 - 24 msgs
References: <3.0.6.32.20020726120258.00a167e0@minn.net>
Message-ID: <3D4B47FA.2000108@gmx.net>

Leslie Bates wrote:

>At 09:30 AM 7/26/2002 -0400, "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Space Viking is definitely a "Traveller-like" book, and the Sword Worlds
>>feature prominently. My only complaint with it? It could actually have made
>>a much longer and more detailed novel.
>>    
>>
>
>Space Viking was originally written for serial publication in ANALOG. Even
>if Piper hadn't shot himself, the market conditions for Science Fiction
>novels would not have justified the rewrite. 
>
>And in my view, Space Viking could have been made into a bloody great movie.
>
>  
>
Still can ... anyone got contacts?

>Les
>
>==================================================================
>Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
>P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
>------------------------------------------------------------------
>The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
>				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
>==================================================================
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
>
>  
>


-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: UFO
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020731085909.45e7b234@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208031234400.22432-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Douglas:

On Wed, 31 Jul 2002, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> I was trying to grow up, then I got cancer, and decided that life was too
> short to be serious about it.
>
> Many cancer patients have a "New Life Birthday," dating from their
> diagnosis date (July 27th for me.)  So I just turned 7.  A good age, in my
> opinion. :)

 I completly understand what you are saying. FWIW I turned 20 in June the
same way. Got the word when I was 30. I responded to treatments and it
disappeared. I refuse to grow up. Besides it would blow my PTSD benefits
<LOL>

BCNU

-- 
 *****        Lord Ronin from Q-Link
******  ****  Sensei David O.E. Mohr
**      ***   Chancellor & Editor for
**            Amiga & Commodore Users Group #447
**      ***   SysOp: The Village BBS {Centipede}
******  ****  503-325-2905 300-28.8K C/G-Ascii-Ansi
 *****        Files, Games, E-Mail, PBEM, Msg Bases


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: max hull size
References: <200208030049.LYB01145@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c23a9b$8969cf30$7400a8c0@matt>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> Steven Hudson asks
>>  BTW, do the Reprints include both editions of HG?
>
> Nope. The reprints have HG2 (which was, in its time, issued
> very briefly).

Briefly?

When did MT come out? '86 wasn't it? Thats 6 years. HG1 was only out for a
year or so. HG1 was published in '79 and HG2 in '80.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: JTAS
Message-ID: <fb.2a270e0d.2a7ca408@aol.com>

>[**] For those who would like to participate, just go to the 
>Starship/Vehicle Design discussion board on JTAS.  Not a subscriber?  
>Why not?  It's only $15 US per two years for biweekly issues and access 
>to archives, discussion boards and Brubek's chat room.  [And if you 
>mention that aurictech referred you, I get a free month added to _my_ 
>subscription! ;-)]
>
>http://jtas.sjgames.com/subscribe/

You also get the thrill of reading my editorials, wherein I discuss items of 
vast import, like where to get the Emperor's favorite wine, and how tomatoes 
and Thomas Jefferson are relevant to Traveller.

Not to mention the assorted design competetions, scintilating discussions, 
and other kewl stuff. JTAS will restore hair (unless you don't want it 
restored), help you lose weight (or gain it), put steam in your stride (which 
isn't as painful as it sounds), and will (like Tree-Frog Beer) make you look 
great and have lots of girlfriends (and/or boyfriends, if you prefer). 

OK, maybe not ALL that stuff, but it IS worth $15 for 2 years. 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Superstition (and Movies)
Message-ID: <d.2aca729a.2a7ca6f7@aol.com>

>At one point during WWII the survival rates of US aviator pilits was not 
>*much* better than kamakazi's. The crucial element is that they believed 
>that their survival was ultimately influenced by their actions and 
>abilities and their omnipresent good luck.

The movie MEMPHIS BELLE (the 1990s remake, not the earlier documentary) 
illustrates this about as accurately as Hollywood ever gets history. It's a 
pretty good representation of the history involved, including the extreme 
youth of the aircrew.

"Danny! Jack threw my St Christopher overboard!"
"Here, take my lucky rubber band . . . it works, honest."

Several years ago, I was toying with the notion of writing a book of war 
movie reviews discussing the relative level of accuracy of each (although I 
think it has already been done). GETTYSBURG is one of my faves in this 
regard. 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Blowing holes in Japan (was " Re Patton")
Message-ID: <F215m4i0FN8Qnr2Hs3j00000007@hotmail.com>

From: "Fred Ramen" <von_rammen@msn.com>

     "Oh, I agree that the Stalin didn't want to expand the conflict any 
more than Truman did. My point was merely that it would have been extremely 
unlikely for the Soviets to allow a divided Japan (as posited in Mr. 
Whipsnade's original post) to be used as a staging area for American 
intervention in Korea (or Vietnam, for that matter)."


My dear Mr. Ramen,

     I completely agree with your analysis, an invaded, occupied, and 
divided Japan could have never been used to support or supply a war in 
Korea.  OTOH, if the Allies had found it necessary to invade Japan, there 
wouldn't have been a Korean war in the first place.
     Soviet Far Eastern forces, which were in the process of clearing 
Manchuria of Japanese troops during August of '45, would have simply 
continued the process down the Korean penninsular.  There would have been no 
division of control between US and USSR at the 38th parallel, as happened in 
history, the USSR would control the entire penninsular and Kim Il Sung would 
have been installed as the acting puppet premier of a communist and united 
Korean nation.
     After disposing of the Korean conflict, the rest of the Cold War in the 
Pacific gets murky.  The USSR would have warm water ports in Korea, 
Hokkaido, and northern Honshu, none of which have the "choke points" that 
assisted us in the Atlantic.  The Pacific would not have been the placid 
American lake it was in our history.
     Oddly enough, having Soviet troops in a Tokyo sector surrounded by an 
American occupation zone may have given the Kremlin pause.  Would there have 
been a Berlin blockade if a corresponding Tokyo blockade was threatened?
     Also, an invasion of Japan may have created a far more nervous post-war 
US.  Having 100s of thousands of troops tied down in our parts of the Home 
Islands fighting against a guerilla campaign would have had some effect on 
the home front.
     Nationalist Chinese troops were slated to occupy portions of the Home 
Islands if an invasion came off.  How would Mao's victory in '49 have 
effected those forces?  Would Mao's triumph even have occurred?  The 
Nationalists may have been forced by a more nervous West to reform, instead 
of being virtually ignored after the war ended.  China could be balkanized 
in the invasion timeline.
     Vietnam is another problem.  Would the US have let the French flounder 
around as they did if we were as worried about the Pacfic as we were about 
Europe?  The US dealt with Tito, he may have been a commie but he wasn't the 
Kremlin's boy.  One wonders if a similar relationship would have been made 
with Ho Chi Minh.  A more likely scenario would have been an early and 
forceful entry in to the Vietnam conflict by the US in the 50's.
     The result may have been an Indochina similar to our Central America, 
rat bastards in charge of corrupt, laughing-stock nations supported by the 
West solely because they aren't communists.
     The effects of all this on the Phillipines is unclear too.  Would the 
US take a more active interest, for good or ill, in Manila if the Pacific 
was more threatening?  What would have been the effect on all the European 
colonies in South East Asia?  Would an Indonesia or a Malaysia happened?
     Gee, ain't alternate history fun?

     "Of course, I may be overstating the importance of Japan to US Pacific 
security, and am quite open to being corrected in this regard."

     I don't think it could be overstated.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:35:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat HULL THICKNESS LIMITATION
Message-ID: <190.ad335f8.2a7ca953@aol.com>

 >HULL
 >185.000 tons standard, 2,590.000 cubic meters, Planetoid Configuration

In a Planetoid Configuration of this size the maximum thickness of the outer 
hull is 0.6 meters and likely much less.  If this ship were 185,000 tons, the 
maximum outer thickness of the outer hull would be 6.0 meters.  Yet in both 
cases they are considered to be naturally armor 3.  I think there should be a 
lower limit on allowable tonnages for Planetoid and Buffered Planetoid ships.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat
Message-ID: <c5.26be7ee0.2a7caa89@aol.com>

 >In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships which have an armor
 >factor of 13 or less.

With a fusion gun?  I'm sorry, you must be using rules I'm not familiar with. 
 I was thinking of High Guard.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020802200157.46a789a6@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <3.0.5.16.20020802200157.46a789a6@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m3k7n8eh5f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes:
>
> Oh, and an NCO having sex with a solider in the same chain of
> command is a violation of the UCMJ.  They deserved to get busted.

That's a nice enough theory, but if one throws a bunch of 18-20
yr. old boys and girls together they're going to get randy.  That's
the Way It Is, regardless of what the rules are.  At least if one
believes the modern prattle that one's sexual drive is irresistible,
then one cannot hold anyone to account for giving in to said drive.
And if one _doesn't_ hold to said prattle, then there's a whole load
of other things one must abandon.

I'd find the whole business amusing, were it not so deadly serious.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
According to the National Crime Survey administered by the Bureau of
the Census and the National Institute of Justice, it was found that
only 12 percent of those who use a gun to resist assault are injured,
as are 17 percent of those who use a gun to resist robbery.  These
percentages are 27 and 25 percent, respectively, if they passively
comply with the felon's demands.  Three times as many were injured if
they used other means of resistance.
          --G. Kleck, Policy Lessons from Recent Gun Control Research

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: JTAS
In-Reply-To: <fb.2a270e0d.2a7ca408@aol.com>
References: <fb.2a270e0d.2a7ca408@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3fzxweh3i.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

GDWGAMES@aol.com writes:
> 
> OK, maybe not ALL that stuff, but it IS worth $15 for 2 years. 

Seconded.  JTAS is _very_ cool.  I like it lots.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
With the Smart Ship's reputation so far, they will have to build a bloody
big trebuchet for the damn thing to be useful as a weapon.
                                         --Derry Hamilton

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <m3k7n8eh5f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <3.0.5.16.20020802200157.46a789a6@pop.mindspring.com> <m3k7n8eh5f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020803135320.A15209@freeman.little-possums.net>

Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> At least if one believes the modern prattle that one's sexual drive
> is irresistible,

I've never heard that one before.  Where is it prattled, and who
prattles it?


> And if one _doesn't_ hold to said prattle, then there's a whole load
> of other things one must abandon.

Like what?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
Message-ID: <18b.bc68e45.2a7cae08@aol.com>

 >> >Nor will I criticize the voters of that city for being stupid enough to
 >> >re-elect as mayor a convicted drug dealer, and then expect the tone of 
the
 >> >city to be anything other than what it is.
 >
 >>Oh, but they're not stupid.  They knew what the tone of the city would be. 
 
 >>That's why they voted for him.
 >
 >I refuse to believe that they _want_ a city that is so badly mismanaged
 >that Congress was ready to take away what autonomy they had.

What was it Ayn Rand said -- "To refuse to consider something is to fear that 
the worst is true"?  Something like that.  If the people of D.C. didn't want 
what they have, they'd do something about it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 22:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 21:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
Message-ID: <2d.211708b3.2a7cb2c1@aol.com>

 >All I am doing is letting Fighters act like Turrets. If several turrets can
 >concentrate their fire to increase their effectiveness, why can't several
 >fighters?

You could extend this same concept to spinal mount vessels.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 22:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 21:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <20020803135320.A15209@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <B970A810.6788B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/2/02 8:53 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:

> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
>> At least if one believes the modern prattle that one's sexual drive
>> is irresistible,
> 
> I've never heard that one before.  Where is it prattled, and who
> prattles it?
> 

Here on the TML, for one place.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 22:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 21:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>

 >> How
 >> serious is the trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took place because
 >> the small island of England was not self-sufficient in either agricultural
 >> or industrial matters, but I don't think this situation will arise on many
 >> _planets_.  If trade is truly a major issue and lifeline then a massed 
herd
 >> of raiders will be crippling regardless of any other fleet elements
 >> employed.  But I think most planets with populations sufficient to have
 >> significant trade connections will have huge internal capacites to produce
 >> what they need anyway, and huge reserves of whatever they have to import
 >> (consider our Strategic Oil Reserve).  
 >
 >If planets are so self sufficient, then why does TNE describe planets 
failing 
 >because they were cut off from interstellar trade?

Don't know.  Doesn't make much sense to me.  I can see it happening here and 
there of course, but not en masse.  TNE may state it, but that's not 
necessarily a reason to just swallow it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 22:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri Aug  2 21:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Meduim Navies
References: <20020803025421.23615.36452.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B5AFB.8934A0CD@ameritech.net>

> Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 19:10:38 -0500
> From: Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com

> This may have gotten lost in my last post and the minor flame spat
> going on, so I'll throw it out again and see if anyone bites.
> 
> What would the Imperuim see as the maximum allowable size, maximum
> allowable quantitative/qualitative weaponry, for a mercenary ship?
> 
> Presumabley they would frown on paws and meson guns, but would they
> allow big bay weapons?

At first blush I think the authorities will start to watch closely if
you have armed ships bigger than 5-10,000 tons. As for weaponry if I
were in charge I'd definitely try to put the kibosh on privately held
bay weapons since they can pose a threat to IN ships of the line as well
as having the potential to escalate wars from the relatively clean form
that the Imperium tollerates to the kind of battle that can cause long
term damage to facilities, populations, and trade.

YMMV

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 22:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 21:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes
Message-ID: <4957.64.8.3.28.1028349006.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

Hello Folks,
  Just a question of sorts...

In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head tax" or does it charge
an income tax on its citizens for its Imperial Budget requirements?  In
short, if the Imperial government taxes 10% of a Gross Planetary Product,
then it would in essence be an income tax.  If it charges a flat 500 CR
per person on a planet, then it is a head tax.  Which is it?

And I find it an interesting thought here.  If the Imperium charges say,
3% of a planet's gross planetary product for its military taxes - this tax
is on top of the local ruler's/government's tax.  How much in the way of
taxes can a population take before its economy begins to stagnate?




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 22:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 21:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEKPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Thomas Barnes" <twb3@charter.net>
>
>> if the tables were turned. I have no doubt the Axis powers, had they won,
>> would have gone on a rampage of looting, rape, genocide, and destruction
>> that would boggle the mind, and luckily remains in the realm of
science-fiction.
>
>In fact, the Axis powers DID go on a rampage of looting, rape, genocide
>and destruction.  That is why they had to be stopped.

But it was such a limited rampage -- only most of Europe, western Russia,
the northern edge of Africa, China, Burma, Thailand, Indochina, the
Philippines, New Guinea, Indonesia, Melanesia, and Micronesia really
suffered.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 22:50:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 21:50:46 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Military Psychology
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEKPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com>
>Subject: [TML] re: Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
traveller)
>
>With "freezer pop" soldiers, you might have people who wake
>up, fight to the death for a week, then go back to sleep
>until the next fight to the death crops up. No down time,
>no ability to process what happened before it all starts
>again.  Imagine the post-war condition of the average US

For this reason, I doubt that the Imperial and Solomani militaries rely
heavily on low berth for troop transportation.  The Zhodani may have an edge
with better capabilities in psychology.

>Forever War was a helluva book, btw.

Agreed!

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIELACEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng)
>
>Even today, I am still amazed just how lucky the Germans were.  Even with
>all their planning, they still could not have predicted the good fortune
>they actually got.

Possible explanations for this run of luck:

1) That was when the devil was still living up to his side of the deal for
Hitler's soul.

2) That was when the Germans had the Ark of the Covenant; the Indiana Jones
movie's action takes place too early.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:09:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:09:42 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKELACEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
>Most Traveller parties need a full time lawyer - but how many
>have you seen with one?

I ran a campaign some years ago where the PCs got arrested and their ship
impounded by the local authorities when they entered orbit around Moughas.
The Fifth Frontier War had started, and the Vargr Gireel Fleet had captured
Moughas, but was using the local government structure while it plundered
whatever it could.  The local legal system called for the accused to be
represented by counsel, and required a choice of counsel, so three Vargr
lawyers appeared on a split screen to pitch their services.

The PCs eventually picked the most aggressive one, who got out of his seat
and went over to each of the other two and punched them out.  They did ok
with his services, but his legal fees cost them much of the money they'd
acquired to date.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:10:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:10:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMELACEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>
>But this is the TML, and one supposes that in the 57th century, the measure
>of a sophont's fitness for a particular duty is tied to their ability to
>perform it.  One may assume that the Imperium establishes baseline
>requirements for, say an MOS, and holds to those standards regardless of
>race or gender.  This may result in a higher proportion of males in a
>particular MOS, perhaps females in another.

That's how it works in my Traveller universe.  Of course, we add "species"
to "regardless of race [i.e., subspecies] or gender."

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:11:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:11:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOELACEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)

>But I'm certainly no expert on gender differences.

To paraphrase my late father, no man is.

--Glenn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:11:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:11:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <a8.f784519.2a7cbf66@aol.com>

 >> A good point worthy of discussion.  I have commerce raiders, but I
 envision
 >> them as travelling in a single mass, outrunning and dodging attempts by
 >> serious fleet elements to pursue them (unless, of course, the raiders
 blunder
 >> into them).  Small patrols and escorts are never going to be able to deal
 >> with such a herd, while major patrols and escorts deployed everywhere will
 >> seriously impact the size of the remaining core fleet.
 >
 >If you spread out a mix of powerful and less powerful commerce raiders,
 >you'll pull more fleet assets away. That's half the point.

I'll be concentrating on the core fleet of the enemy.  If I defeat them, then 
I'll round up the commerce raiders at leisure.  That's my whole point.

 >>How serious is the
 >> trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took place because the small
island
 >> of England was not self-sufficient in either agricultural or industrial
 >> matters, but I don't think this situation will arise on many _planets_.
 >
 >It'll impact revenue, which hurts over time. More importantly, it hurts
 >civilian morale and causes demands for proteciton. And you can damage the
 >logistics train - if the enemy is missile-heavy, he has to get them to the
 >battle area...

Good points all.  Sure you'll have revenue losses -- can you imagine what the 
Soviet Union's revenue losses were like? -- but if in the meantime the main 
enemy fleet is engaged and defeated then that won't matter.  "The only thing 
more expensive than a war is losing."  As for morale and demands for 
protection, the civilians will know their best chance for protection is a 
fleet victory.  One can point to any number of instances where stubborn 
insistence on city protection contrary to military necessity has caused the 
defeat of an army.  Further, the loudest calls for protection will be from 
those worlds capable of building their own local defense forces.  As for the 
missiles, yes, that's a major problem if you are missile-heavy, and I think 
the best way to solve it is to have large stocks on hand in protected bases 
before the war and not try to manufacture what you need during a war.

 >>If
 >> trade is truly a major issue and lifeline then a massed herd of raiders
will
 >> be crippling regardless of any other fleet elements employed.
 >
 >Until it inevitably gets squashed. Dispersed raiding works better, other
 >than for targeted strikes, say on a critical system to massacre the
 >concentration of merhcant shipping there.

It will only get squashed if it gets caught by a superior force.  If your 
opponent disperses, then dispersing yourself simply plays his game at his 
level, but staying concentrated leaves all of his dispersed elements unable 
to oppose you.  If your opponent concentrates and tries to force a major 
engagement then this will either require a huge containment fleet all out of 
proportion to the raider task force (in which case the main fleet will be 
left weakened) or a wild stroke of luck as the raiders blunder into this 
pursuing fleet.

 >Assuming he's rich enough to afford a fleet like that. Guerre de Course has
 >always been the weaker nation's option.

If you are richer than your opponent then there's little he can do.  If you 
are equal, then if you're rich enough to build a significant escort/patrol 
fleet and scatter it everywhere then he's rich enough to build an equal-value 
capital fleet and slowly march it through your scattered escorts.

 >> I don't think you can get "greater concentration of force" with "less
ships".
 >
 >I have 6 ships, you have 12. I draw 8 of your ships away with a feint, and
 >gain local superiority. You sent them all? Great. I smash your base. You
 >sent none? Well, if my recon is up to it I'll know. Next time I just smash
 >something elsewhere , maybe with pairs of my ships, while you sit tight and
 >wait for the big clash at JUtland.

And if I outfeint you?  I think you're assuming a defensive and dumb enemy, 
with you holding all the offense and recon-intelligence cards.  If you have 
six and I have twelve I'll just guard the base with six and chase you with 
the other six.

I'm about done here.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <20020802231503.19852.60096.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17arId-0004ch-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>

"Thomas Barnes" <twb3@charter.net> wrote:
 
> > 
> > You really think that a computer can be powerful enough to simulate
> > all that and yet not have safeguards to prevent death?  I would
> > imagine that it'd be just like a modern simulator: screw up and you
> > get the `shatter screen.'
> > 
> > Although it could also be used to give you a nasty shock or something
> > every time you screw up...
> > 
> 
> Not necessarily.  I was working on an F-15 trainer a few years ago and
> stepped out of the seat to reach a terminal while leaving the aircraft
> "in flight".  It took a bit longer that I thought it would, and the
> uncontrolled simulated jet ended up impacting the "earth" at Mach
> 1.something.  
> 
> The control loader on the stick modeled stick forces due to the
> accelerations of the aircraft, so in response to the massive g-loading
> of the crash, drove the stick violently aft.  It is my good fortune that
> I was not in the way of the stick when it drove aft, since it hit the
> stops hard enough to snap a stainless steel cable in the control loader.

Ouch!

I'm guessing that by TL12+ all well-made simulators will be 
indistinguishable form the real thing, except that the simulators 
don't have the fast or lingering death if you screw up.  Combine 
holography and artificial gravity and really fancy computers and 
you've got a very powerful combination that might not even be that 
expensive. I'm guessing that driver ed for grav vehicles will involve 
getting thrown into a bunch of simulations of dangerous situations 
and then getting graded on how you do.  

Fighter sims would probably involve high-g loads (in fighters where 
the accelerations are greater than the degree of compensation), 
fast turns, zig-zag dodging at high-g and all manner of stuff that 
would leave the newbies sick as a dog immediately afterwards, and 
hurting the next day.

The fun part will come of someone figures out a moderately easy 
way to get someone into a simulator while making them think they 
are getting into the real thing.  You won't be able to pull that trick 
more than once on someone unless the sims are *really* good 
(and they might be), but it would be an *excellent* test of exactly 
how well a pilot has learned his or her lessons.  



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:19:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:19:49 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
In-Reply-To: <20020802231503.19852.60096.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17arIf-0004ch-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>

ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>) wrote:

> "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> writes:
> > 
> > Personally, I find it hard to shed many tears for Hiroshima,
> > Nagasaki, or Dresden.
> 
> I dunno--the firebombing of Dresden is IMHO one of the worst war
> crimes committed by the US.  Esp. the bit about destroying emergency
> vehicles...
> 
> That no-one was ever strung up for it is a travesty.  We're supposed
> to be better than that.

Agreed.  Hiroshima and Nagasaki can at least be argued as being 
better than the alternatives (although I've heard several different 
PoVs about how exactly necessary bombing Nagasaki was).  
However, Dresden is an amazingly clear cut case.  It was an act of 
terror and vengeance easily as bad as anything the other side did 
in it's bombing of civilian targets.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com  

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:20:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Volker)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:20:36 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Names
In-Reply-To: <14d.1114a660.2a6ad884@aol.com>
References: <14d.1114a660.2a6ad884@aol.com>
Message-ID: <31100237350.20020803141400@greimann.de>

> to Texas from Illinois, in company with my father and three notarized
> documents from her two older sisters and her father attesting to her birth at 
> the date and time in question. A few hours at the county courthouse and she 
> was issued a backdated document.


Scribble, scribble:

<campaign notes>
"Need  any  documents  you  "lost"?  Go  to Desdemona, they'll get you
one. ...For a price!"
</Campaign Notes>


-- 
*** Volker Greimann * volker@greimann.de ***
******  Long live Emperor Strephon!  *******


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:25:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:25:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Taxes
Message-ID: <3D4B6830.F9B207D4@mail.cswnet.com>

>In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head tax" or does it >charge an income tax on its citizens for its Imperial Budget >requirements?  In short, if the Imperial government taxes 10% of a >Gross Planetary Product, then it would in essence be an income tax.  >If it charges a flat 500 CR per person on a planet, then it is a head >tax.  Which is it?

Depends on the system your useing.
TCS says its a head count
Striker implies, by your definition, something like an income tax
Ian Ferguson's small navies and my meduim navies uses a hybrid tax

>If the Imperium charges say, 3% of a planet's gross planetary product
>for its military taxes - this tax is on top of the local
>ruler's/government's tax.

But the Imperium doesn't do that; Canon says it charges 30% of the
military budget, not the gpp[Strikerv1.0, book2, page38, section IV,
rule 73, part B, last paragraph]. How the local ruler comes up with the
money for the budget is his/her/its business, but no matter how much
money comes in the Imperuim is getting 30%. Otherwise, the local ruler
gets met by the Happy Baseball Bat [a companion of the Happy Fun Ball;
better not to ask]. Also, if the economy gets dragged down by said local
rulers taxation, I foresee problems between he/she/it and the Imperuim.
Isn't it part of the rules of war that the Imperuim doesn't like wars
that damage the economy of the Imperuim. The 3I MIGHT view overtaxation
as a problem if it led to economic instability and slow down in economic
growth. Then again it might not, considering the large number of planets
with high gov codes and presumably high taxes in one form or another. I
think it would depend on the situation and the ability of the local
ruler...see T4s Pocket Empires for that.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <20020803025421.23615.36452.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17arTK-0005yh-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>) wrote:

> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> > 
> > But this is the TML, and one supposes that in the 57th century, the
> > measure of a sophont's fitness for a particular duty is tied to
> > their ability to perform it.  One may assume that the Imperium
> > establishes baseline requirements for, say an MOS, and holds to
> > those standards regardless of race or gender.  This may result in a
> > higher proportion of males in a particular MOS, perhaps females in
> > another.
> 
> Yep.  I've heard, for example, a theory that women might actually make
> better fighter pilots, due to endurance or soemthing like that.

More than a theory actually.  The number of women being trained 
as fighter pilots continues to climb, and there are many predictions 
that the number of female fighter pilots will surpass the number of 
male fighter pilots in not all that many years.  Women in general 
are shorter, lighter, and have better resistance to g forces (ie they 
don't black out as quickly) all of which are very useful qualities in 
modern fighter aircraft. 

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <E17arId-0004ch-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMEAMIKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of
sneadj@mindspring.com
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 10:17 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller


"Thomas Barnes" <twb3@charter.net> wrote:
 
> > 
> > You really think that a computer can be powerful enough to simulate
> > all that and yet not have safeguards to prevent death?  I would
> > imagine that it'd be just like a modern simulator: screw up and you
> > get the `shatter screen.'
> > 
> > Although it could also be used to give you a nasty shock or something
> > every time you screw up...
> > 
> 
> Not necessarily.  I was working on an F-15 trainer a few years ago and
> stepped out of the seat to reach a terminal while leaving the aircraft
> "in flight".  It took a bit longer that I thought it would, and the
> uncontrolled simulated jet ended up impacting the "earth" at Mach
> 1.something.  
> 
> The control loader on the stick modeled stick forces due to the
> accelerations of the aircraft, so in response to the massive g-loading
> of the crash, drove the stick violently aft.  It is my good fortune that
> I was not in the way of the stick when it drove aft, since it hit the
> stops hard enough to snap a stainless steel cable in the control loader.

Ouch!

I'm guessing that by TL12+ all well-made simulators will be 
indistinguishable form the real thing, except that the simulators 
don't have the fast or lingering death if you screw up.  Combine 
holography and artificial gravity and really fancy computers and 
you've got a very powerful combination that might not even be that 
expensive. I'm guessing that driver ed for grav vehicles will involve 
getting thrown into a bunch of simulations of dangerous situations 
and then getting graded on how you do.  

Fighter sims would probably involve high-g loads (in fighters where 
the accelerations are greater than the degree of compensation), 
fast turns, zig-zag dodging at high-g and all manner of stuff that 
would leave the newbies sick as a dog immediately afterwards, and 
hurting the next day.

The fun part will come of someone figures out a moderately easy 
way to get someone into a simulator while making them think they 
are getting into the real thing.  You won't be able to pull that trick 
more than once on someone unless the sims are *really* good 
(and they might be), but it would be an *excellent* test of exactly 
how well a pilot has learned his or her lessons.  


_______________________________________________

Throw in a meson communicator and you've got telepresense

jml
so that's what a Ten gee Immelman is like

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <1a1.64c8bb6.2a7cc59a@aol.com>

 >Let's turn this on its head. Can you explain how this model of yours
 >works...? How do you plan to fight a war with it?

Recall, I'm working with CT HG (the original -- I understand there is an HG2 
out?).

I put a fleet together for the Spinward Marches.  Being what it is, it is 
primarily intended to be defensive.  Most of it is stationed at Jewell, 
Efate, and Regina, with task forces at Vilis, Lunion, and Glisten.  If the 
Zhodies send their main fleet body in a straight-on attack then we'll decide 
the issue then and there.  If they send the main body on an end run by Vilis 
heading for my high-population worlds then I'll just have to try to catch 
them while sending in two or three task forces to try and blockade Cronor, 
cutting off their supplies.  If that attack succeeds then they will be forced 
to retreat -- if they ever find out.  Meanwhile I'll be attempting to engage 
their main body with my main body.  If we meet then again we'll decide the 
issue.  If they scatter to spread havoc then I'll break up into units that 
hopefully will always outnumber their groups and just continue to pursue 
them, scooping them up as I find them while also leaving some task forces on 
the border hoping to catch their isolated elements as they try to leave.  
Anyway, that's what I envision.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
In-Reply-To: <E17arIf-0004ch-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>
References: <20020802231503.19852.60096.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <E17arIf-0004ch-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <2007.64.8.3.28.1028353249.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

Even Acts of Terror may be considered as life saving...

> However, Dresden is an amazingly clear cut case.  It was an act of
> terror and vengeance easily as bad as anything the other side did  in
> it's bombing of civilian targets.

I do *NOT* condone the targetting of civilian targets.  However - it is a
fact that the targetting of civilian targets is a viable military
strategy.  MAD - Mutually Assured Destruction, is the ultimate in
terrorism in the sense that it states plainly to your enemy "Kill my
non-combatants, and I will kill yours".
  Likewise, if Dresden told Germany in no uncertain terms, that continued
  terrorist activity on its part would be met in kind by such activity on
  the Allied side - then so be it.  I will *NOT* Judge the military
  commanders of that time for the decisions made.  Any more than I would
  condemn Isreal or India for use of military force against civilian
  targets - *IF* their own civilian populations are being targetted by
  enemies of their state.  If the enemy starts off bringing a rifle to
  battle, it would be a fool who refuses to sink to his enemy's level of
  barbarity, if he continues to bring a club to the fight.  Likewise -
  barbarism is sometimes the only thing that barbaric rulers and/or
  leaders will understand.  Enough said on that topic by myself ;)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
Message-ID: <186.bc7cec0.2a7cc747@aol.com>

 >> > Why do you want fighters to be more effective?
 >>
 >> So that they can have an outside possibility of damaging Capital ships at
 >> high TL
 >
 >And again, why do you want this? Barring me swallowing some and suffering
 >some strange kind of poisoning, no amount of flies can beat me in a straight
 >fight. My feeling is that fightrers are good for screening and keeping
 >merchies in line. Big ships are for killing big ships.

Yeah.  But Traveller is an RPG, not just a pseudo-scientific wargame.  It's 
nice to be able to have a Luke Skywalker in an X-wing.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 00:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 23:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <16.231f5efa.2a7ccd90@aol.com>

 >> Will they come apart if they take 98% casualties between breakfast and 
lunch? 
 >>  That is on a level with the original post that started this discussion.
 >
 >No it wasn't, because the original post didn't specify a proportion, 
 >merely an absolute quantity.

Let's look at what the proportion would be.  70,000 ton capital ship vs 
70,000 ton carrier.  Both J4, tech 15, as per CT HG1.  The carrier will be 
carrying fighters at about 35% of its mass.  The fighters to be at all 
effective will have to be 90 tons each.  (70,000 * .35) / 90 is 272 fighters 
(if anyone says the carrier and fighters will be cheaper and therefore more 
numerous just remember the 272 model 9 computers at 140MCr a pop).  The 
original quote from the original post was "a few hundred fighters".  I'd 
think that "a few hundred" would mean between 200 and 300.  Unless there is 
some extra-ordinary reason why such losses are necessary, I don't think 
anyone is going to want to be a fighter pilot on a carrier that sends out a 
few hundred fighters and only recovers a mere handful as a matter of course 
-- if it recovers any at all, since the margin of victory will be so narrow.  
In any case, if this involves, say, 100 ships per side, then in the end there 
will be about 28 lightly-damaged cruisers left (lightly-damaged as per the 
house rule originally discussed), while the fighters will just about all be 
eliminated.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 00:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 23:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <81.1f59b1a7.2a7cd257@aol.com>

 >> How serious is the trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took
 >> place because the small island of England was not self-sufficient in
 >> either agricultural or industrial matters, but I don't think this
 >> situation will arise on many _planets_.
 >
 >Not for the planets of any meaningful military capacity, anyway.  99%
 >of the production of the Imperium comes from 10% of the planets.  The
 >combined trade of those planets with every other planet (including
 >each other) is about 0.2% of their combined economies.  That means
 >that whatever they import can't be worth much.

You say it better than I do.  Thanks.  Wanting to protect or disrupt trade is 
great, but when you're looking at a map of what is actually there then you 
start thinking, "Now wait a minute ...."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 00:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 23:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <ac.2b37fb6e.2a7cd350@aol.com>

 >Personally, my opinion is that TNE needed an apocalypse and lack of
 >trade was just an excuse.

It certainly makes for an excellent RPG adventuring environment.  Depending 
on your tastes.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 00:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 23:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
Message-ID: <151.11d6b5dc.2a7cd85d@aol.com>

 >You see, I spent most of my time in the
 >Liberal Arts when I was in school, and it did me an irrepairable brain
 >injury. Traveller is therapy for me now.

I was going to say maybe ease up on the science and just create an 
adventurable world, but I see what you mean.  That's great, keep it up!

 >does a dense
 >atmosphere hold more energy? Wouldn't it take that much more energy to
 >"move" a dense atmosphere into weather changes?

Yes, and yes.  And too, denser atmospheres will have much more kinetic energy 
when moving.  I strong breeze in a dense atmosphere will probably knock down 
anyone trying to walk in the open.  Wish I knew the math to tell you.

 >Would the world's oceans act as thermal "batteries", and if so, how would 
they  
 >affect the weather?

Yes.  Oceans are tremendous reservoirs of heat and moderators of weather.  
Land climates near oceans are always warmer in winter and cooler in summer 
than land climates far away from oceans.  When I lived in Oceanside if you 
wanted air conditioning all you had to do was open an east window and a west 
window, because all that rising hot air in the inland desert drew a constant 
cool breeze off of the ocean 24 hours a day 365 days a year.  I didn't put on 
a coat or turn on a fan or air conditioner for four years.

On the other hand you don't get big storms inland.  Oceans store lots of 
heat, and it gets transfered in currents, storms, and hurricanes.

Wish I could tell you more.  If I see anything I'll direct you to it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 01:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 00:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <82.1f5501bd.2a7cdb36@aol.com>

 >Has anyone noted the set up with regards to the number of starports that 
 >can produce starships versus those that can only builld system ships?  And 
 >to make matters worse, there aren't that many high tech star ports around

I have.  It does make a big difference, doesn't it?  "If my ships are cheaper 
I'll be able to build more of them!"  No you can't.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 01:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 00:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
Message-ID: <2cce1d2ceb69.2ceb692cce1d@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Hopper <whopper@pobox.com>
Date: Saturday, August 3, 2002 3:44 am
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship 
optimization)

> Matt, Martin,
> I agree with both points presented below.  I think fighters should 
> be more
> effective in a coordinated, massed attack than they are 
> individually.  I also
> agree that 'coordinated' is the key term.
> 
> My solution is to group fighters into a 'squadron' so that their 
> weapons can be
> combined into one battery. But to do so, the squadrom must have a 
> controlling or
> 'master' fighter.  The squadron's combined attack is treated as if 
> it is one
> battery, and uses the rating of the computer in the controlling 
> fighter with an
> additional -1 modifier.
> 
<<snips details of fighter squadron house rule>>
> 
> Role-playing never came up in relation to this, but for role-
> playing purposes I
> would have the master fighter making recommendations to the pilots 
> of the
> squadron, perhaps through a Heads Up Display.  The individual 
> pilots could
> disregard the recommendations if they were willing to accept the 
> consequences.

You could also have the pilot of the "master" fighter make a Fleet 
Tactics roll each turn, with failure resulting in a -1 to the squadron 
fire Factor.

<<snip>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 01:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 00:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <1b9.4379064.2a7cdd3a@aol.com>

 >A large system like this would have to maintain a 
 >considerable number of ships in order to defend these assets

And not only can they, they'll all be powerful SDB's.  It will take vast 
resources to assault such a world.  And when the main jump fleet hears where 
you are, they'll come running.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 01:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 00:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <2d682c2d2cdb.2d2cdb2d682c@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: sneadj@mindspring.com
Date: Saturday, August 3, 2002 8:16 am
Subject: RE: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller

<<snip>>
> 
> The fun part will come of someone figures out a moderately easy 
> way to get someone into a simulator while making them think they 
> are getting into the real thing.  You won't be able to pull that 
> trick 
> more than once on someone unless the sims are *really* good 
> (and they might be), but it would be an *excellent* test of 
> exactly 
> how well a pilot has learned his or her lessons.

Or, a'la _Ender's Game_, get them in the real thing while they're 
convinced that they're just in a simulator (and thus can't be killed).
  



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 01:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 00:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"
Message-ID: <11c.14d66d9e.2a7ce27f@aol.com>

 >>>> "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!" >>>
 >
 >Under the rules of war, we've been discussing, if an enemy intentionally
 >builds fortifications or other military structures among a civilian
 >populance, then that enemy becomes rssponsible for the safety of those
 >aforementioned civilians. If those civilians are actively and willfully
 >supporting the enemy, then they are no longer considered noncombatants. So,
 >it IS Al Quaida's fault and responsibility if the US intentionally seeks to
 >bomb a legitimate military target that Al Qaida has hidden behind a human
 >shield.

I rest my case.

"It's Milosivic's fault we bombed a convoy of farmers!"
"It's Arafat's fault we bombed that apartment building!"
"It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a convoy of inauguration representatives on 
the open road!"

If I were to act with this level of disregard even in defense of my own 
children, I'd be in jail.  McVeigh was right -- "collateral damage" covers a 
multitude of sins.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 01:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 00:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <2d53e02d6366.2d63662d53e0@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
Date: Thursday, August 1, 2002 2:39 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] sword vs shotgun

> >From: Flykiller@aol.com  
> >Subject: Re: [TML] sword vs shotgun  
> >To: tml@travellercentral.com
> >
> > >the best, and I mean the best, adventures are those that 
> > >are "two party" adventures - one party of players against 
> > >another.  The referee can never buy or write a one-party 
> > >adventure that is as tense, hilarious, or as emotional as 
> > >a "two party".

<<snip>>
> 
> It's an old idea.  And, it's a very good way to deal with 
> those in the playing group who want to be sociopaths.  The 
> referee doesn't have to kill them - the other party can try 
> their best.  In my case, however, it came out even more often 
> than not - being the "good" party doesn't make you 
> bulletproof.

On that note, I shall repost something I said on this list several years 
ago:

"I would have to say that the nastiest "monster" a group of PCs can ever 
face is...another group of PCs. Savagely bloodthirsty, hideously 
well-armed, and possessed of a certain low cunning. (Just like the first 
group of PCs.)"

This and many more fine quotes may be found on Mark Urbin's Web site:

http://www.urbin.net/EWW/sigs/rpg-sigs.html




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 01:58:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 00:58:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <39.2b0d8f9c.2a7ce6d3@aol.com>

 >A config 7, dispersed structure, ship has the
 >highest to hit target of any configuration.
 >A high agility, high computer size A or less
 >meson escort is the hardest to hit of any ship.
 >Other weapons find it hard to hit with as well.
 >Additionally, is features the lowest hull cost.

I'm afraid we've been talking two different systems.  I've been talking CT 
HG1, but everyone seems to be talking about something else.  CT HG1 only 
distinguishes between hull sizes on to-hit adjustments, not hull types.  I'm 
afraid I don't know HG2, or for that matter any of the others, and it seems 
HG1 has been deprecated.

That's what I get for jumping in.

 >Costing
 >DD price range, they threaten any capital ship scoring weapon
 >and computer hits through radiation hits and all but Critical and
 >shattered fuel hits on hits and penetrate and score interior hits.

Yeah, see in HG1 a factor 9 meson cannot penetrate any meson screen of 3 or 
higher, and any capital ship is going to have meson screen 9.

Thanks.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 02:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 01:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <a9.2b679017.2a7ce930@aol.com>

 >>  >The Germans, and
 >>  >particularly the Japanese were horribly dehumanized.  We made our 
enemies
 >>  >into monsters so then it was OK to exterminate them.
 >> 
 >> If there was any dehumanizing of the Germans and Japanese, they did it
 >> themselves through their own brutality. 
 > 
 >Um, all of them, even the children?

Our side can do no wrong.  The other side is utterly evil, in all matters, in 
all ways, at all times, in all circumstances.

"The emergency food we're dropping to the Afghans might make them sick 'cause 
they're not used to it."
"The Taliban is poisoning the food we're dropping!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 02:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 01:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
Message-ID: <2d9a852d8ef1.2d8ef12d9a85@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net>
Date: Thursday, August 1, 2002 3:32 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)

> Rob Davenport <rgd@infinet.com> wrote:
> >	Ed Wood's "Starship Troopers" 
> 
> Kenji Schwartz gave a good rant compairing ST to an Ed Wood movie.
> You can find it on my SciFi sig quote page.

Another Kenji Klassic, also from Mr. Urbin's Web site:

In certain senses, I think the PMPP [*] is the ultimate distillation of 
the Traveller spirit. Technophallocentric belloeroticism. -- Kenji 
Schwarz on the Traveller Mailing List.

Upon reading that, I realized that the phrase can be modified to be 
singable to "Supercalifragilisticexpialidocius" (or however the heck 
that damnable song's title is spelled):

Everybody now!

<sings>

"Supertechnopallocentric belloeroticism...."

</sings>

[*] For those of you just tuning in, this refers to a pelvic-mounted 
plasma gun.
 
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/sigs/rpg-sigs.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 02:13:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 01:13:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in traveller)
Message-ID: <199.acd8aa3.2a7cea81@aol.com>

 >It's an old saw that military service is extended periods of
 >boredom punctuated by short periods of stark terror.  Imagine
 >if an army used sleeper ships to move their troops around...
 >soldiers whose military service consisted of sleeping through
 >the extended periods of boredom, and only being awake for the
 >periods of stark terror.
 >
 >That kind of setup might be cheap when it came to starship
 >life support costs, but I imagine the impact on the soldiers'
 >psyches would be extreme.

Not if they were only asleep during jumps.  "Good morning, we're passing 
through Regina and the captain decided you should all spend some money there 
for a few days."  And soldiers won't be spending years on ships anyway -- 
they'll only be there when in transport.  Kind of hard to practice armored 
maneuvers on the mess deck.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 02:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 01:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] damning (OT)
Message-ID: <18c.bcc9ac6.2a7cf019@aol.com>

 >> I've seen a handful.  Offsetting this, I've seen companies where every
 single
 >> corporal  and several sergeants get busted down for sex with the female
 >> privates.  I've seen active duty females refuse orders to perform physical
 >> tasks (like dumping trash cans) and tell sergeants to their face to "get a
 >> male to do it".  I've seen females who cannot, and I mean cannot, pass
 their
 >> limited physical fitness tests, who can't do  even seven pushups, but who
 >> still remain in units.  I've seen females who cannot climb the ladder from
 >> the shaft alley to the second deck and who have to be helped.  I've seen
 >> females finish their expensive training and then promptly be discharged
 >> because they're pregnant.
 >
 >Yeah, and I've seen human beings who were skilled and competent and
 >determined and motivated and just plain better than me being kept down
 >because they were born female. You can't damn half the human race on a
 >generality.

"Damn"?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 02:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 01:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prejudice (OT)
Message-ID: <c3.26abf399.2a7cf0f5@aol.com>

 >> > Whatever benefits they bring I think are outweighed by the negatives.
 I'd
 >> > dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their
 >> > traditional roles of nurse and clerk.  If the US military is so hard-up
 for
 >> > warm bodies that it really needs females, then I say reinstitute the
 WACS and
 >> > WAVES and whatever else, with their own standards and their own chain of
 >> > command, and put them in charge of stateside facilities like hospitals
 and
 >> > supply depots and personnel offices so men are freed up for more forward
 >> > duties.
 >
 >
 >Such sweeping prejudice. I am impressed.

I don't think recognition of a general trend of experience is prejudice.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 02:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 01:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: max hull size
Message-ID: <44.23c85f34.2a7cf2bd@aol.com>

 >> >Again, I'm assuming CT.  Let's see .... at tech 12, max hull size is 
 >>199,999 
 >> 
 >>   <1 MT (USP X) per HG2, pps. 26 & 28.
 >>
 >>Sorry -- CT HG.  I don't know what HG2 does.
 >
 >  OMG - someone _uses_ HG1?! I only got a copy by accident...
 >neat read, though.

Heck, I thought that _was_ Traveller.  Guess I'm a dinosaur.

 > BTW, do the Reprints include both editions of HG?

Don't know, but I don't think so.  They're just copies of the originals, 
typos and all.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 03:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 02:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Meduim Navies
Message-ID: <d0.2aca14d8.2a7cf556@aol.com>

 >What would the Imperuim see as the maximum allowable size, maximum
 >allowable quantitative/qualitative weaponry, for a mercenary ship?

Book 4 lists an example ticket calling for a reinforced brigade with full 
equipment, so that's probably the max.  I've drawn up a troop ship with J3 
that carried a battalion, and it was 19,000 tons.  So, I'd say either four 
20,000 ton ships or one 80,000 ton one.

As for ship's weapons, I've never seen a specified limit.  Presumably major 
governments are the only ones that can afford serious ship weapons.  I'd say 
no limit on defensive weapons and that a few factor 4 laser batteries would 
not draw attention, but anything more would be a fleet action weapon and I 
wouldn't think a mercenary unit would be interested in fleet actions.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 03:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 02:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] max hull size
Message-ID: <3c.222acf08.2a7cf724@aol.com>

 >> Sorry -- CT HG.  I don't know what HG2 does.
 >
 >HG2 is CT Book 5: High Guard, 2nd edition.
 >
 >It was published in 1980, replacing the 1st edition published in 1979. There
 >was a series of articles in JTAS at the time on updating your version from
 >1st to 2nd to save you buying a new copy. Obviously this passed you by.
 >
 >The version in the CT Reprints is HG2.

Man, I'm messing up left and right here.  Well then I have HG2, but I'm still 
lost.  The numbers and ship specifications I'm seeing posted I don't 
understand at all.  Nothing fits the HG2 book.  Meson gun factor 9 boats that 
are threats to capital ships?  I guess no-one uses HG anymore.

Thanks.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 03:12:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 02:12:04 2002
Subject: [TML] max hull size
In-Reply-To: <3c.222acf08.2a7cf724@aol.com>
References: <3c.222acf08.2a7cf724@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4382.64.8.3.28.1028365894.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

> Man, I'm messing up left and right here.  Well then I have HG2, but I'm
> still  lost.  The numbers and ship specifications I'm seeing posted I
> don't  understand at all.  Nothing fits the HG2 book.  Meson gun factor
> 9 boats that  are threats to capital ships?  I guess no-one uses HG
> anymore.

From my memory: you can have meson and partical accellerator bays as 100
ton and 50 ton bays.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 03:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 02:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <18f.bcbf05f.2a7cf8de@aol.com>

 >I am laughing too hard to issue the requisite command.

I'm sure Karen Hultgreen laughed too.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 03:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 02:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <120.13e4a72a.2a7cf985@aol.com>

 >Most Traveller parties need a full time lawyer - but how many 
 >have you seen with one?

But since the Imperium does not concern itself with local laws, then how much 
good would a lawyer do in a party that travelled from world to world?  He 
would be just as ignorant of local laws as the party.  In fact, he might get 
them into even more trouble.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 03:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Sat Aug  3 02:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Pilots of the Future (was: warship optimization)
In-Reply-To: <20020803083703.29055.32859.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentr
 al.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020803020158.009f6810@mailhost.efn.org>

On Fri, 2 Aug 2002 22:27:48 -0700, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:

>More than a theory actually.  The number of women being trained
>as fighter pilots continues to climb, and there are many predictions
>that the number of female fighter pilots will surpass the number of
>male fighter pilots in not all that many years.

Just in time, some would say, for teleoperated drones to make the whole 
profession obsolete.  There's already quite a bit of "Captain Kirk vs. M-5" 
bluster going back and forth, with the pilots shouting the loudest; they 
already dread Predator duty, which is mostly sitting in a trailer watching 
camera feeds that might as well be simulator screens.  They claim that a 
few weeks of this can dull their edge.  Most of them are smart enough to 
see where the trend inevitably leads... never being able to climb into a 
real plane and put their gonads on the line again.

(And if you think the females are any less macho than the males, you 
haven't heard the old axiom about having to work twice as hard just to make 
the grade.  In fact, the new face of feminism seems to be about proving 
that women can be every bit as stupid and self-destructive as men -- check 
out the rise of female binge drinking on campuses nationwide.)


>   Women in general
>are shorter, lighter, and have better resistance to g forces (ie they
>don't black out as quickly) all of which are very useful qualities in
>modern fighter aircraft.

Of course, if we do go to an all-drone force, different qualities will be 
selected for.  Like being good at video games... which brings us back to 
the start of this sub-thread, doesn't it?



--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 03:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 02:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <40.21b2d6f0.2a7cfea7@aol.com>

 >And I daresay that if we have women serving in full combat capacity
 >under the regimes of either seperate standards (i.e. where they must
 >not meet the same standards as men) or reduced standards (e.g. I
 >understand that two-man stretcher teams are now four or more), we will
 >see plenty of human beings who die miserably because their comrades
 >are not up to the task.

Actually, I'll bet we won't.  The military is talking now about how much 
future warfare will be on the level of special ops, utilizing local troops 
and only sending in special forces to coordinate bomb strikes, like in 
Afghanistan.

Army?  What army?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 03:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 02:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Pilots of the Future (was: warship optimization)
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020803020158.009f6810@mailhost.efn.org>
Message-ID: <002e01c23ad4$cbcbbd00$1d17bd50@martinjd>

> Of course, if we do go to an all-drone force, different qualities will be 
> selected for.  Like being good at video games... which brings us back to 
> the start of this sub-thread, doesn't it?

Main problem with drones is the ECM/ECCM/Jamming seesaw. 

And control lags over combat distances in space, OC.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 03:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 02:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] prejudice (OT)
References: <c3.26abf399.2a7cf0f5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003b01c23ad5$b1af5ca0$1d17bd50@martinjd>

>  I'd
>  >> > dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their
>  >> > traditional roles of nurse and clerk.

>I don't think recognition of a general trend of experience is prejudice.

You've just stated that you'd deny every single woman who wanted to and
could be good enough, the chance to try to be what she wanted, on the basis
of your - by definition limited - experience. Maybe not prejudice, but I
don't have a word for it.

I believe in absolute standards - good enough for the combat area is the
same for everyone, and yes, more men than women are. That's reality. But if
someone is good enough and actually wants to be there, then they have the
right to be.

I have a 7stone, 5 foot woman in my self-defense class. She's not got any of
the right instincts, but she doggedly keeps on trying to learn because she
feels the need. She's small and weak, and quite honestly her capabilities
are poor for the foreseeable future. Potentially, though, she might be able
to develop real capability to protect herself., And she WANTS TO.

Should I refuse to teach her because the chances of success are slim? I
think not.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:01:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:01:06 2002
Subject: [TML] damning (OT)
References: <18c.bcc9ac6.2a7cf019@aol.com>
Message-ID: <004201c23ad6$14a70e20$1d17bd50@martinjd>

>  >
>  >Yeah, and I've seen human beings who were skilled and competent and
>  >determined and motivated and just plain better than me being kept down
>  >because they were born female. You can't damn half the human race on a
>  >generality.
>
> "Damn"?

Condemn to medicrity, to second-class citizenship, to be denied things that
they want for arbitrary reasons, despite their determination, talent and
potential.

What you seem to want to do is to set limits for people.

That's a form of damnation to me.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] System Gen Help
References: <20020802001136.17476.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000201c23ad5$0a9e8080$7400a8c0@imogen>

Paul Walker wrote:
> I am doing an extended system generation.  I rolled
> for #6 to be the max orbit.  I also rolled for 2
> captured planets.  One is in orbit 6.3 and the other
> is in 6.0
> 
> Orbit 6 and 5 are both SGG's.  4 is the mainworld and
> the habitable zone.
> 
> Is this legitimate?  Or do I need to move the captured
> planet in orbit 6.0 to somewhere else.

I don't know of any written rule to cover this (someone speak  up
if they know of one)  but  I  don't  see  a  problem  with  this.
Captured planets aren't just extra planets, they are plants  that
were added to the system after it formed.  The max orbits  number
just means max number of *normally forming* orbits (unless  we're
talking about companion stars).  And the orbit  number only tells
you the *average distance* from the star.  What I tend to do (and
would do in this case) is to give a combination of  some  or  all
of: make the orbit highly eccentric, or highly  inclined  to  the
system's orbital plane, or make it's motion retrograde,  or  give
the planet a high axial tilt.  Probably all.

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"
References: <11c.14d66d9e.2a7ce27f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <005301c23ad6$a4ab5760$1d17bd50@martinjd>

>
> I rest my case.
>
> "It's Milosivic's fault we bombed a convoy of farmers!"
> "It's Arafat's fault we bombed that apartment building!"
> "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a convoy of inauguration representatives
on
> the open road!"
>
> If I were to act with this level of disregard even in defense of my own
> children, I'd be in jail.  McVeigh was right -- "collateral damage" covers
a
> multitude of sins.

This sort of thing happens in war all the time. War is a tapestry of misery
and suffering, most of it needless.

People demand that we go to do what must be done ( or sometimes protest
about it and refuse to see why it must be done) then condemn the military
when innocents get hurt.

The answer? Learn to get along and abolish conflict.
Until then, we must accept the paradox and try to do the best we can not to
cause needless suffering. But we will, all the same.
That's why this world sucks.






From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:07:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:07:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <2cce1d2ceb69.2ceb692cce1d@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <006001c23ad7$072d8ac0$1d17bd50@martinjd>

>
>
> > Matt, Martin,
> > I agree with both points presented below.  I think fighters should
> > be more
> > effective in a coordinated, massed attack than they are
> > individually.  I also
> > agree that 'coordinated' is the key term.
> >

I'm thinking that an initial "battery" attack would be permissible, with
"friction" throws required to avoid losing cohesion and becoming just a mob
of armed gnats. Breaking off and reforming would be necessary.

You might also consider fighter control bays aboard carriers?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:08:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:08:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <82.1f5501bd.2a7cdb36@aol.com>
Message-ID: <006b01c23ad7$2b16f660$1d17bd50@martinjd>


> >Has anyone noted the set up with regards to the number of starports that
>  >can produce starships versus those that can only builld system ships?
And
>  >to make matters worse, there aren't that many high tech star ports
around
>
> I have.  It does make a big difference, doesn't it?  "If my ships are
cheaper
> I'll be able to build more of them!"  No you can't.
>

See above comment that HG/TCS does not adequately provide a realistic naval
warfare system. But it is a cool game.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:08:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:08:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <182.c122206.2a7d0578@aol.com>

 >But this is the TML, and one supposes that in the 57th century, the measure
 >of a sophont's fitness for a particular duty is tied to their ability to
 >perform it.  One may assume that the Imperium establishes baseline
 >requirements for, say an MOS, and holds to those standards regardless of
 >race or gender.  This may result in a higher proportion of males in a
 >particular MOS, perhaps females in another.

Does MOS really describe the job requirements?  Sure, anyone can sit at a 
desk and process paperwork -- but if paratroopers land nearby then I think it 
becomes clear that what your MOS is and what your actual job is are two 
different things.  Relying strictly on MOS leaves your army inflexible and 
brittle.  The marine's approach is good -- no matter what you go on to be, 
you start out as an infantryman.

And I think you'd see quite a bit of racial segregation.  For example, as I 
understand, in the old Imperial Japanese Army a man could be rejected for 
service because of too much body odor.  I'm sure a unit of mixed races would 
have many similar distracting conflicts of culture and biology.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <186.bc7cec0.2a7cc747@aol.com>
Message-ID: <007901c23ad7$ae247640$1d17bd50@martinjd>

>  >
>  >And again, why do you want this? Barring me swallowing some and
suffering
>  >some strange kind of poisoning, no amount of flies can beat me in a
straight
>  >fight. My feeling is that fightrers are good for screening and keeping
>  >merchies in line. Big ships are for killing big ships.
>
> Yeah.  But Traveller is an RPG, not just a pseudo-scientific wargame.
It's
> nice to be able to have a Luke Skywalker in an X-wing.

Well, yes. The Death Star attack was more like a one-off asymmetric attack
than a regular combat operation. I'm willing the believe (for gaming and fun
purposes) in such a one-off "we have an opportunity" operations. But not in
routine combat.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:14:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:14:09 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
Message-ID: <fc.1bc430d6.2a7d06b7@aol.com>

 >Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
 >big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.

What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other sensor systems 
you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Firearms in Vacumn
In-Reply-To: <3D43E470.DA5F22D1@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20803.011715.6z8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> 
>> In mail you write:
>> 
>> > "Robert Uhl " wrote:
>> >>
>> >> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
>> >> >
>> >> > No, but guns *have* been fired underwater (this is a somewhat
>> >> > different situation than firing one with a barrel full of water).
>> >>
>> >> Anyone here have any experience doing this?  I know that it's supposed
>> >> to work, but I've never worked up the courage or folly necessary to
>> >> play with it.  I've a lot of respect for Things What Go Boom, and I've
>> >> little desire to annoy them...
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
>> >> If your franchise is not secured by force of personal arms, you are a
>> >> subject, not a citizen.                               --H. Beam Piper
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> TML mailing list
>> >> TML@travellercentral.com
>> >> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>> >
>> > I launched a model rocket from underwater after seeing it in "The Model
>> > Roceteer" It was very
>> > impressive.
>> 
>> Do you still have any copies of The Model Rocketeer? Mine got lost a
>> long time ago :-(
>
> I think so, I'll have a look next time I'm cleaning that part of the garage. 
> Anything in particular
> or do you want that article on underwater launches?

Well, I'd like to have a set of the silly things, or at least a decent
scan of them.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:19:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:19:09 2002
Subject: [TML] missile capacities
Message-ID: <120.13e4a732.2a7d07e4@aol.com>

 >> They are too inefficient to kill, yes.  But they can still be a royal pain
 >> in the ass.  In the end though capital ships can kill them but they can't
 >> kill capital ships.  Eventually they run out of missiles.
 >
 >Only in the real world, not in HG. : )

HG says absolutely nothing about it.  Show me a hundred ton bay and a 
physical object, and I can tell you how many of those objects will fit into 
the bay.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <1a1.64c8bb6.2a7cc59a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <008601c23ad9$12eafee0$1d17bd50@martinjd>


> >Let's turn this on its head. Can you explain how this model of yours
>  >works...? How do you plan to fight a war with it?
>
> Recall, I'm working with CT HG (the original -- I understand there is an
HG2
> out?).
>
> I put a fleet together for the Spinward Marches.  Being what it is, it is
> primarily intended to be defensive.  Most of it is stationed at Jewell,
> Efate, and Regina, with task forces at Vilis, Lunion, and Glisten.  If the
> Zhodies send their main fleet body in a straight-on attack then we'll
decide
> the issue then and there.  If they send the main body on an end run by
Vilis
> heading for my high-population worlds then I'll just have to try to catch
> them while sending in two or three task forces to try and blockade Cronor,
> cutting off their supplies.  If that attack succeeds then they will be
forced
> to retreat -- if they ever find out.  Meanwhile I'll be attempting to
engage
> their main body with my main body.  If we meet then again we'll decide the
> issue.  If they scatter to spread havoc then I'll break up into units that
> hopefully will always outnumber their groups and just continue to pursue
> them, scooping them up as I find them while also leaving some task forces
on
> the border hoping to catch their isolated elements as they try to leave.
> Anyway, that's what I envision.

Okay. The Zhos have thrown large numbers of light cruisers and "merchant
raiders" (armed merchant ships posing as legitimate traffic) across the
border and are raiding lightly defended ports, shooting up your logistics
train and the Sector Duke is yelling at you that dozens of world governments
are yelling at HIM for protection. Many of these raids are by ships in the
light or even heavy cruiser class. Some sightings mention capital ships and
small task groups. They've probably got support ships out there somewhere
too.

Zho fleet elements have struck at weak targets on the border, but you don't
know it they retired afterward or are advancing.
Your intelligence is a mess of vessel reports, and while the attacks on
minor worlds are trivial from a military standpoint, those are imperial
citizens being shot up. Some border  worlds (again, soft targets) have been
assaulted by ground forces and may now be under occupation. The sector duke
wants those worlds retaken. He wants the raids stopped.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:24:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:24:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonabo Class Missile Frigate
Message-ID: <c1.24afabf6.2a7d092f@aol.com>

 Incidentally, it goes without saying that these things kill TL E- ships
 quite nicely.

TL E is very vulnerable.  The meson screens and nuke dampers are weak.

I think this is a better design:

1000 ton hull
J4
M6
Armor4
100 ton missile bay (holds 100 salvos)
etc

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Baboon Class Missile Frigate
Message-ID: <19c.6563ee4.2a7d0bfa@aol.com>

 >A trillion credits worth of these things will only mission kill one or two
 >capital ships per turn, and will suffer considerable losses in return.
 >
 >They probably don't work out as a match for capital ships, but they are
 >close enough to be useful, I suspect.

Assuming CT HG2, if you put armor 4 on them they are very difficult to deal 
with.  I've run simulations of this several times, and each time it's a draw. 
 The capital ships can kill them, but only a few at a time.  By the time 
hundreds of them are forced into the reserve you have dozens repairing their 
way out and back into the front line each turn, with a steady-state of about 
2 on-line to 1 in-reserve.  Meanwhile they sweep the capital ships of weapons 
at a steady rate.  It's close, but by the time the frigates are ready to win 
they run out of missiles.  It's curiously balanced.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:38:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:38:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <a8.f784519.2a7cbf66@aol.com>
Message-ID: <009b01c23adb$506d89c0$1d17bd50@martinjd>

>  >
>  >If you spread out a mix of powerful and less powerful commerce raiders,
>  >you'll pull more fleet assets away. That's half the point.
>
> I'll be concentrating on the core fleet of the enemy.  If I defeat them,
then
> I'll round up the commerce raiders at leisure.  That's my whole point.

Yes indeed. All we need is a decisive battle and we've won. Of course,
sometimes you can't have one. While the main fleets search for one another,
you get nibbled at, and your political will gets eroded.

> Good points all.  Sure you'll have revenue losses -- can you imagine what
the
> Soviet Union's revenue losses were like? -- but if in the meantime the
main
> enemy fleet is engaged and defeated then that won't matter.

IF. But what if the enemy uses his fleet in being as a threat, a pin, while
he crumbles at you? What if he WON'T fight that decisive battle?

>"The only thing
> more expensive than a war is losing."  As for morale and demands for
> protection, the civilians will know their best chance for protection is a
> fleet victory.

As they're bombed and shot up by a cruiser? As they hear more reports of
merchant ships and outposts killed by raiders? No they won't.

Modern war - 4th generation war - is fought in the living rooms of the
populace. Manipulating them is one of the keys to victory. Give them enough
uncountered threats, enough needless deaths, and they'll be demanding peace.


>One can point to any number of instances where stubborn
> insistence on city protection contrary to military necessity has caused
the
> defeat of an army.

And yet you have to do it sometimes. War is not purely a military matter. It
is the attempt by one state to impose its will upon the other, by military
and... other...means.

>Further, the loudest calls for protection will be from
> those worlds capable of building their own local defense forces.  As for
the
> missiles, yes, that's a major problem if you are missile-heavy, and I
think
> the best way to solve it is to have large stocks on hand in protected
bases
> before the war and not try to manufacture what you need during a war.

Procurement and budget issues. No force ever went to war with enough
ammunition. And once you move from base and fiore some missiles, you have to
get resupply. Either by goijng back to rearm, or by using vulnerable
logistics ships.

>
>  >>If
>  >> trade is truly a major issue and lifeline then a massed herd of
raiders
> will
>  >> be crippling regardless of any other fleet elements employed.
>  >
>  >Until it inevitably gets squashed. Dispersed raiding works better, other
>  >than for targeted strikes, say on a critical system to massacre the
>  >concentration of merhcant shipping there.
>
> It will only get squashed if it gets caught by a superior force.

Which will happen if there is just one target at large.

>If your
> opponent disperses, then dispersing yourself simply plays his game at his
> level, but staying concentrated leaves all of his dispersed elements
unable
> to oppose you.

You can of course partially disperse or disperse and form some big and some
small raider groups. But raiding en masse is more of a targeted strike - hit
and leave. It's not really viable as a tactic, because raider forces are by
definition inferior to fleet units, and that's what they'll face if they
hand an opportunity to the opposition.

>
>  >Assuming he's rich enough to afford a fleet like that. Guerre de Course
has
>  >always been the weaker nation's option.
>
> If you are richer than your opponent then there's little he can do.

Who won the Vietnam war again?

>If you
> are equal, then if you're rich enough to build a significant escort/patrol
> fleet and scatter it everywhere then he's rich enough to build an
equal-value
> capital fleet and slowly march it through your scattered escorts.

You're thniking of everything in terms of a mapboard and counters. I'm
discussing warfare. I already mentioned the politoical necessity to catch
raiders etc so I won't bring it up again. But I will say that finding and
catching raiders is a ship-intensive and impressively difficult task, though
if you keep at it you'll succeed. Just remember that you can't be sure where
his forces are or what they're doing to you while you're marching through
his escorts.

>
>  >> I don't think you can get "greater concentration of force" with "less
> ships".
>  >
>  >I have 6 ships, you have 12. I draw 8 of your ships away with a feint,
and
>  >gain local superiority. You sent them all? Great. I smash your base. You
>  >sent none? Well, if my recon is up to it I'll know. Next time I just
smash
>  >something elsewhere , maybe with pairs of my ships, while you sit tight
and
>  >wait for the big clash at JUtland.
>
> And if I outfeint you?  I think you're assuming a defensive and dumb
enemy,
> with you holding all the offense and recon-intelligence cards.  If you
have
> six and I have twelve I'll just guard the base with six and chase you with
> the other six.
>
> I'm about done here.

The feint/outfeint is one of the risks of war. I may be willing to fight
your six with mine, and trust to my ships and crews to win it for me - this
sort of writing-down of the enemy at the best odds you can get was German
High Seas Fleet policy in WWI.

As to a dumb enemy... fair comment. I've heard the "enemy" make a number of
sweeping pronounbcements of the "oh, I'd just" that make me confident that
once reality intruded, friction would render this enemy less capable than he
thinks.





From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:39:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:39:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIELACEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <00a601c23adb$79171580$1d17bd50@martinjd>

> >From: cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng)
> >
> >Even today, I am still amazed just how lucky the Germans were.  Even with
> >all their planning, they still could not have predicted the good fortune
> >they actually got.
>
> Possible explanations for this run of luck:
>
> 1)

There was a good deception plan, and some excellent planning regarding
timing and execution. They made an opportunity to get lucky...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <3.0.5.16.20020802200157.46a789a6@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <00c701c23adb$e7d770a0$1d17bd50@martinjd>

> The 50s ended, my dear sir.  As long as they can do the job.  Oh, and an
> NCO having sex with a solider in the same chain of command is a violation
> of the UCMJ.  They deserved to get busted.
> -- 

Yeah! All hail Doug. Doug is Wise. 
For a 7 year-old penguin-obsessive....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <20020802231503.19852.60096.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <3D4B3637.35538EB8@mailbag.com>
Message-ID: <00e801c23adc$47c368c0$1d17bd50@martinjd>

> 
> Not quite Clint, yet even Clint had some intellegent moments.
.


You mean Clif!

Hey, everyone, he invoked Clif!

Clif has been Invoked!


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <112.1523c9f7.2a7c50e1@aol.com><014a01c23a78$a159d220$5d0bbd50@martinjd> <m3znw4epbc.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <00f701c23adc$73358a60$1d17bd50@martinjd>

> And I daresay that if we have women serving in full combat capacity
> under the regimes of either seperate standards (i.e. where they must
> not meet the same standards as men) or reduced standards (e.g. I
> understand that two-man stretcher teams are now four or more), we will
> see plenty of human beings who die miserably because their comrades
> are not up to the task.
>
> And I hardly think that shielding from death and destruction is
> `damning.'  Rather a nice thing to do, as a matter of fact.

Quite. We must have absolute standards for everyone, but those who make the
grade should be allowed to serve.

The present system of differential requirements is just plain daft.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
References: <fc.1bc430d6.2a7d06b7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <011801c23adc$bdd0f780$1d17bd50@martinjd>

> >Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
>  >big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.
>
> What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other sensor
systems
> you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?


Mines, even of a CAPTOR type, don't have much area coverage. You'd need a
lot of them to cover an area, though orbits and other choke points are a
possibility.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 05:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 04:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
Message-ID: <3015092fe19a.2fe19a301509@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Flykiller@aol.com
Date: Saturday, August 3, 2002 1:13 pm
Subject: [TML] mines

> >Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
> >big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.
> 
> What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other 
> sensor systems 
> you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?

I recommend you read Bruce Alan Macintosh's Definitive Sensor Rules for 
T4/FF&S2 for a complete discussion of sensors.  Passive sensors IRL 
would have ranges in space significanly better than those of active 
sensors such as radar.

http://traveller.mu.org/house/sensor.rules.html



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 05:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 04:16:03 2002
Subject: C**f (was: Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller)
Message-ID: <30360530300f.30300f303605@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: MJ Dougherty <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Date: Saturday, August 3, 2002 1:54 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller

> > 
> > Not quite Clint, yet even Clint had some intellegent moments.
> .
> 
> 
> You mean Clif!
> 
> Hey, everyone, he invoked Clif!
> 
> Clif has been Invoked!

Is that the TML equivalent of Godwin's Law?  ;-)

http://www.godwinslaw.com/

And yes, I remember the Days of C**f.... :-P

I refer the newcomers to the list to the fourth Ditzie pic on Jesse 
DeGraff's page:

http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/ditzie.htm


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 05:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 04:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Acceptable losses
Message-ID: <3073a4307395.3073953073a4@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: MJ Dougherty <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Date: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 6:45 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Acceptable losses

> 
> > Brian Caball says
> > >What about the whole "over the top" attitude of WWI? Pouring
> > >thousands of lives into suicidal charges for far less gain
> >
> > Yes, for a gain of a few yards, or no gain at all.
> >
> > Some people I know do *not* believe the casualty figures from
> > WW I.  They insist that it's simply not possible.
> >
> > I keep pointing out references in history books to whole
> > regiments being gunned down by machine gun fire.  They insist
> > that no men would do such a thing, especially if they had
> > seen it done before
> 
> See previous comment about French refusal to continue this way, at 
> leastuntil confidence in the gain was restored....

Then there's the pair of quotes that begin one chapter of T.R. 
Fehrenbach's _This Kind of War: A Study In Unpreparedness_ (quoted from 
memory):

"The capture of this hill is worth ten thousand men!" - French general 
on the Western Front during WW I
"Generous bastard, isn't he?" - The commander of the lead assault 
battalion




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 05:21:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 04:21:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Transporters and Tractor Beams
In-Reply-To: <3D446DE8.9002.D95DFD@localhost>
Message-ID: <20803.035628.8c6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On 28 Jul 2002 at 2:22, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> In mail you write:
>> 
>> > Well, I was thinking, if the Imperium were to invent (or
>> > retro-engineer) them and make them available on their ships. I take
>> > your point on size, I was thinking about them being Trek-sized I
>> > guess.  I know a Trek transporter extends above and below the
>> > occupiable deck some way so they'd be several tons in displacement
>> > and would probably require a good old suck on the power plant so they
>> > would probably be a no-no for player sized ships anyway.
>> 
>> Remember, Voyager and DS-9 had them in *runabouts*. 
>> 
>> And frankly, I agree with Niven's comments in his essay "the Theory and
>> Practice of Teleportation".
>> 
>> A single-ended teleport device (ie you only need equipment at one end)
>> is the recipe for a *very* short war.
>
> There was an A. C. Clarke short story about this. The Martians put a 
> nuke-armed ship over each major city on Earth to 'encourage' our co-
> operation. This merely encouraged the development of a teleportation 
> system. After the bombs were sent through they sent people to Mars to 
> have a look. IIRC the main demand was for archaeologists to sifts 
> through the ruins.

Actually, that was Clarke's *first* published story.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 05:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 04:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <39.2b0d8fbb.2a7d17c6@aol.com>

 >>Whatever benefits they bring I think are outweighed by the negatives.  I'd 
 >>dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their 
 >>traditional roles of nurse and clerk.
 >
 >I knew many excellent female soldiers, who pulled their weight and then
 >some.

I've known several too.  One particular medic and a particularly effective 
battalion XO and one hard little DI come to mind.  But the majority of the 
one's I've met were passive and weak or simply -- well, like most of you feel 
about me.  Some were flatly disobedient, and no-one would touch them because 
they were female.  Many were flatly unqualified physically, but they were 
female and so were kept.  I was, and am, bottom of the barrel physically, and 
I always had great difficulty passing any of the PT tests, but I could run 
circles around the vast majority of the females I've seen, no exaggeration.  
Oh I helped them, I encouraged them.  As a sergeant it was my job.  "Come on, 
you can do it!  Get yourself up!" on her sixth and last needed push-up.   She 
couldn't do it.  The (male) DI's gathered round her, and marked her record as 
passing, and she moved happily along.  Running alongside another who's about 
to fail her 24 minute PT:  "I'm dying!"  "You are _not_ going to die, no 
matter how much it hurts.  Now there's an injured man up there, you are his 
only hope, keep going!  C'mon c'mon c'mon!"  She passed, crawling over the 
line at the last second.  But I think Karen Hultgreen is at the end of this 
road.  I don't think an army or a navy needs this, I don't think a nation's 
defense needs this.  And that's not damning women, and that's not prejudice.

 >I also saw many male soldiers who whined and always seemed to be on
profile.

Many?  I saw a small handful -- in boot camp.  None of them passed.  Outside 
of that, it was just normal morale problems.  My first reserve unit was top 
notch, the navy men complained but were reliable and tough, and my next 
reserve unit seemed to have nothing but capable people (except for a few 
opportunistic bureaucrats).  I can't speak to where you were, but I've been 
to some places and seen some environments, and I can't say I've seen "many" 
male whiners or sick-bay commandos.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 05:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Aug  3 04:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lawyers
Message-ID: <20020803114546.E36724505@mo130uhou.palm.net>

n Space  
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain ; boundary="----=_Part_14584_6132357.1028375146935"
X-Mailer: smtp

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:
[snip]
>Most Traveller parties need a full time lawyer - but how many  
>have you seen with one?  

Even Doc Savage kept a lawyer in his group. :-)
Useful for the high Admin skills too...

----------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 05:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 04:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes
Message-ID: <68.23ff06b1.2a7d1d9d@aol.com>

 In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head tax" or does it charge
 an income tax on its citizens for its Imperial Budget requirements?  In
 short, if the Imperial government taxes 10% of a Gross Planetary Product,
 then it would in essence be an income tax.  If it charges a flat 500 CR
 per person on a planet, then it is a head tax.  Which is it?

Either way, you can't build a fleet that expends all of your budget.

Sales tax.  Not everyone will be able to pay a head tax, and chasing down 
everyone would be tedious.  A sales tax on large fixed would be more 
efficient -- they can't hide, and everyone winds up paying through higher 
prices anyway.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 05:59:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 04:59:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Taxes
Message-ID: <85.1f38e034.2a7d1f78@aol.com>

 >TCS says its a head count

Actually, it doesn't.  It says "... ; Cr500 is the amount of naval tax paid 
by the average citizen ; ..."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith Mormon minion of Arioch)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes
References: <68.23ff06b1.2a7d1d9d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <01ee01c23ae6$45115c90$6f7ba8c0@kenneith93j41k>

I would say the imperium levees a tax on a system and it is up to the system
to figure out how to pay it. We need you to give us 1.5 b more credits, the
imperium doesn't care how you raise the funds as long as they get their
money, just as I am sure their are many local government who blame the
imperium for the high taxes the people pay but in reality it goes to their
own pockets.
ken

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comics
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you
http://www.geocities.com/J_Elric_Smith/Index.html
----- Original Message -----
From: <Flykiller@aol.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 7:50 AM
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes


> In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head tax" or does it charge
>  an income tax on its citizens for its Imperial Budget requirements?  In
>  short, if the Imperial government taxes 10% of a Gross Planetary Product,
>  then it would in essence be an income tax.  If it charges a flat 500 CR
>  per person on a planet, then it is a head tax.  Which is it?
>
> Either way, you can't build a fleet that expends all of your budget.
>
> Sales tax.  Not everyone will be able to pay a head tax, and chasing down
> everyone would be tedious.  A sales tax on large fixed would be more
> efficient -- they can't hide, and everyone winds up paying through higher
> prices anyway.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208021045440.12501-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <3D4BC838.3C66EE32@mindspring.com>

Azalais Malfoy wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 2 Aug 2002, Hurrel, Brian wrote:
> 
> >  >The Germans, and
> >  >particularly the Japanese were horribly dehumanized.  We made our enemies
> >  >into monsters so then it was OK to exterminate them.
> >
> > If there was any dehumanizing of the Germans and Japanese, they did it
> > themselves through their own brutality.
> 
> Um, all of them, even the children?
<Snip> 
> Kiri

Children can be particularly cruel. Seeing a crowd of 'redneck' children (~8 yo) calling a black
child Nigger and attacking that child with rocks cured me of the 'children are innocent' belief.
While I believe its true they learned this from their parents, it doesn't change anything from the
black childs perspective. And without some life changing experience, they are likely to grow up like
my wifes cousin and carry a 'nigger skinning knife'. 


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:14:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:14:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: troll optimization on the TML
Message-ID: <memo.572868@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <200208030048.LYB01066@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
> Mex, you need to have Fly run around the parade ground until 
> you get tired...

Now THERE's a Good Idea :-)

"Flykiller, front and centre!"

Mexal.
formerly Sergeant, 22nd (Cheshire) Regiment, British Army.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:14:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:14:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <memo.572869@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <B97089CA.67857%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
> But this is the TML, and one supposes that in the 57th century, the 
> measure
> of a sophont's fitness for a particular duty is tied to their ability to
> perform it.  One may assume that the Imperium establishes baseline
> requirements for, say an MOS, and holds to those standards regardless of
> race or gender.  This may result in a higher proportion of males in a
> particular MOS, perhaps females in another.

Indeed, that is how it should be. If a task demands physical strength or 
endurance, then you pick people with those qualitities. If the task 
requires mental agility or specific academic training, you chose someone 
who has it (or, in the case of training, who has the base ability to 
benefit from being given that training, if you have the time!).

Some things you can work around. For example, I am intolerant of cold. By 
now, I am very good at keeping myself warm! Surprised my students last 
winter, I never appeared chilly, while they were all huddled in their 
overcoats first thing on Mondays in an outlying hut that isn't heated. But 
female teachers who wear long flowing skirts can hide a multitude of 
things (like long underwear!!!) :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:15:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:15:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <memo.572870@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020802195559.46a76b08@pop.mindspring.com>
To answer your questions.

> >Me! Me! Pick me!
> 
> 1. Are you nuts?

Yes.

> 2. Really nuts?

Yes. Do I have to repeat myself?

> 3. Can you lie perfectly still while an enemy soldier urinates on you?

You think I want to move around?
 
> 4. As in #4, but it is a National Guardsman during a training mission.

And?

> 5. Do you stand and remove your hat when you hear GnySgt Carlos Hathcock
> mentioned?

Of course, don't you?

> 6. Do you believe in your heart of hearts that there is no such thing as
> friendly artillery?

Yes.
 
> 7. When walking in open areas, do you automatically check sight lines 
> and
> exfil routes?

Naturally. Doesn't everyone?
 
> 8. Do you refer to your wife as your spotter?

Nope. I don't refer to him as my wife :-)

> 9. Do you/Did you make every target at 300 meters but miss the 50 meter 
> ones?

Well, I usually hit both sets...

> 10. We mean it, are you *really* nuts?

You haven't noticed yet?

> If you answered yes to all these questions, you might have what it 
> takes.
> Just send Cr 20 and 10 7.62mm shell casings to:
> 
> Sniping for Dummies
> c/o ACQ Weapons
> Box 26, Gridlore Complex
> Lunion Up #3
> Lunion/Lunion/Spinward Marches

Mexal (not sniper-trained - in the British Army they only accept right 
handers... Grrr.)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:16:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:16:40 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes
Message-ID: <memo.572871@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <4957.64.8.3.28.1028349006.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
IMTU, the Imperium taxes its member planets. How that planet chooses to 
raise the money to meet the Imperial tax bill is up to them.

Most just hike their own income tax a fraction of a percent. 

Some, especially those who are lukewarm about their membership, charge a 
separate 'Imperial Tax' to make the point that people are being charged 
for the privilege.

Some levy the tax on what they perceive as being the benefits of belonging 
to the Imperium, such as interstellar trade.

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <39.2b0d8fbb.2a7d17c6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001401c23ae8$dcdeae40$0905bd50@martinjd>

> circles around the vast majority of the females I've seen, no
exaggeration.

On the flip side, two of my friends (female friends) are more determined and
in absolute terms more capable than half the men in our martial arts class.
They're better than many who hold higher grades. They'd be barred under your
rules.

>that's not damning women, and that's not prejudice.

Deciding the fate of half the human race - pre-judging their capabilities -
becuase of gender. Nah, that's notuing like prejudice.

Of course, the poor dears can't be expected to understand politics, manage
an estate or run a business either. Any you know? they couldn't do it. Not
until someone let them try.





From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:19:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:19:08 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208021045440.12501-100000@shell.tsoft.com> <3D4BC838.3C66EE32@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <002901c23ae9$3da4d9c0$0905bd50@martinjd>

>
> Children can be particularly cruel. Seeing a crowd of 'redneck' children
(~8 yo) calling a black
> child Nigger and attacking that child with rocks cured me of the 'children
are innocent' belief.
> While I believe its true they learned this from their parents, it doesn't
change anything from the
> black childs perspective. And without some life changing experience, they
are likely to grow up like
> my wifes cousin and carry a 'nigger skinning knife'.

They can. OC, it's easy to be cruel to someone you've dehumanized, or
watched your parents dehumanize.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:26:02 2002
Subject: JTAS Contest (was: Re: [TML] warship optimization in traveller)
References: <20020802182504.13132.61928.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <3D4AE7C4.85DCBD6E@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <3D4BCB8A.4E223775@mindspring.com>

David Shayne wrote:
> 
> > Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 20:07:38 +0300
> > From: john.groth@us.army.mil
<snip>
> >
> > [**] For those who would like to participate, just go to the
> > Starship/Vehicle Design discussion board on JTAS.  Not a subscriber?
> > Why not?  It's only $15 US per two years for biweekly issues and access
> > to archives, discussion boards and Brubek's chat room.  [And if you
> > mention that aurictech referred you, I get a free month added to _my_
> > subscription! ;-)]
> 
> Ignore this blatant self promotion and tell them davidshayne sent you.
> 
> :)
> 
> > http://jtas.sjgames.com/subscribe/

No, no. Tell them Alan Spik sent you. I'll name a ship in Glistens 100th Fleet after you. Remember
you heard that offer here first. ;p


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:27:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:27:04 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
Message-ID: <004301c23aea$9c802fc0$0905bd50@martinjd>

Just a reminder that there's stuff on the Citizens website.


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-to-the-Masses
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <004901c23aea$d61edba0$0905bd50@martinjd>

Go take a look at CotI, under "my fellow Citizens", for something
interesting.


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-to-the-Masses
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:29:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:29:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <001401c23ae8$dcdeae40$0905bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3D4C752C.26063.37AF39@localhost>

On 3 Aug 2002, at 13:25, MJ Dougherty wrote:

> Of course, the poor dears can't be expected to understand politics, manage an
> estate or run a business either. Any you know? they couldn't do it. Not until
> someone let them try.

"Women have a sort "decorative" function, rather like teapots; and you 
wouldn't expect a teapot to go around making decisions now would you?"

[Can anyone place the quote?]

ObTrav: Not a sausage that I can see.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:31:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:31:05 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <004f01c23aea$fc955ac0$0905bd50@martinjd>

also see http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/writing.html


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-to-the-Masses
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <112.1523c9f7.2a7c50e1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4BCDB5.17057FCA@mindspring.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> 
>  >In the active service I've know many fine female sailors who were competent
>  >technicians and fine seaman. And more than a few who were more competent
>  >leaders than many of the critics who bemoaned the posting of woman to ships.
> 
> I've seen a handful.  Offsetting this, I've seen companies where every single
> corporal  and several sergeants get busted down for sex with the female
> privates.  I've seen active duty females refuse orders to perform physical
> tasks (like dumping trash cans) and tell sergeants to their face to "get a
> male to do it".  I've seen females who cannot, and I mean cannot, pass their
> limited physical fitness tests, who can't do  even seven pushups, but who
> still remain in units.  I've seen females who cannot climb the ladder from
> the shaft alley to the second deck and who have to be helped.  I've seen
> females finish their expensive training and then promptly be discharged
> because they're pregnant.
> 
> Whatever benefits they bring I think are outweighed by the negatives.  I'd
> dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their
> traditional roles of nurse and clerk.  If the US military is so hard-up for
> warm bodies that it really needs females, then I say reinstitute the WACS and
> WAVES and whatever else, with their own standards and their own chain of
> command, and put them in charge of stateside facilities like hospitals and
> supply depots and personnel offices so men are freed up for more forward
> duties.

While seeing some of the same things in the early 80's, I saw very dedicated and professional women
also.
I think the real fix would be for the Sgt/PO. to issue a report chit on any female who refused an
order. The 'one' women in my shop who tried this on me wound up with 15 days extra duty and an
extreme hatred of me. But she didn't try it again in my presence. Of course she didn't offer sex to
get out of work. ;p Maybe being in the RP had something to do with it.

-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prejudice (OT)
Message-ID: <116.14e786df.2a7d2ad1@aol.com>

 >>  I'd
 >>  >> > dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their
 >>  >> > traditional roles of nurse and clerk.
 >
 >>I don't think recognition of a general trend of experience is prejudice.
 >
 >You've just stated that you'd deny every single woman who wanted to and
 >could be good enough, the chance to try to be what she wanted, on the basis
 >of your - by definition limited - experience. Maybe not prejudice, but I
 >don't have a word for it.

I'm not the only one with this limited experience.  But I don't have a word 
for it either.  

One finds precisely this same discrimination against 40 year olds.  Some can 
handle it, sure, but 40 year olds can't join because enough of them have 
sufficient problems that it's just not worth it to the army to sort through 
it.  One finds similar discrimination against prior-service -- they do their 
best to keep you out, I know from personal experience, and if you do get back 
in you get _no_ breaks.  I don't have a problem with either form of 
discrimination because I know each deals with a certain problem set, and I'm 
saying that a similar sort of problem set exists in females in the military. 
Does this damn 40 year olds?  Does this damn women?

 >I believe in absolute standards - good enough for the combat area is the
 >same for everyone, and yes, more men than women are. That's reality. But if
 >someone is good enough and actually wants to be there, then they have the
 >right to be.

There is no right to be in the military.

 >I have a 7stone, 5 foot woman in my self-defense class. She's not got any of
 >the right instincts, but she doggedly keeps on trying to learn because she
 >feels the need. She's small and weak, and quite honestly her capabilities
 >are poor for the foreseeable future. Potentially, though, she might be able
 >to develop real capability to protect herself., And she WANTS TO.
 >
 >Should I refuse to teach her because the chances of success are slim? I
 >think not.

And good heavens, I agree.  But joining the army is not the same.  The army 
needs people it can definitely train now, that it can depend on to be able to 
do certain things now, and that are tough enough to get it done now.  Most 
women don't meet some of those criteria, and bringing in large numbers of 
them in the hope that a few will rise to what is required is the same as 
bringing in a large number of 40 year olds in the hope that some of them will 
rise to what is required.  Whatever the gain here and there, the effort 
overall is counter-productive.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:49:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:49:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Meduim Navies
References: <3D4B1F7E.736A3F94@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3D4BD0E3.F1507CBD@mindspring.com>

Roseberry wrote:
> 
> This may have gotten lost in my last post and the minor flame spat
> going on, so I'll throw it out again and see if anyone bites.
> 
> What would the Imperuim see as the maximum allowable size, maximum
> allowable quantitative/qualitative weaponry, for a mercenary ship?
> 
> Presumabley they would frown on paws and meson guns, but would they
> allow big bay weapons?
> 
IMTU spinal mounts of any type and meson bays are in the same class 'weapons of mass destruction'
That said, registered mercenary units are able to get other types of bay weapons, as are papered
privateers. 


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <fc.1bc430d6.2a7d06b7@aol.com>
References: <fc.1bc430d6.2a7d06b7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020803224859.A16270@freeman.little-possums.net>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
>  >Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
>  >big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.
> 
> What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other sensor systems 
> you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?

Well, the problem is that even if you have literally thousands of
them, the nearest one will likely pass tens of thousands of kilometres
from the target.  So they need pretty good sensors, which means
significant cost and size.

Worse still, we're talking about insystem relative speeds which are
often on the order of megametres per second.  In a typical Traveller
space combat sequence, the ship gets a million kilometres away during
the combat round in which it is detected.  No mine can mount a direct
fire weapon with that range, so it has to power up some extreme
thrusters and play tag, or launch a missile which has thrusters.  More
cost and size.

At thirty gees, it can catch the ship in about two hours.  That sort
of endurance needs a damn good power source and possibly fuel, adding
yet more cost and size.

Unfortunately, it is also radiating a bucketload of power via its
thrusters, making it pretty easy to spot and subsequently shoot with
any basic point-defense the target might have.  It better have some
defensive features like armour or sandcasters, as well as a pretty
good agility.  And a good computer.  More cost and size.


By this point, you're talking about something that bears more
resemblance to an autonomous fighter than a mine.  Almost certainly
not something that you can scatter by the thousands in the hope that a
few might be able to hit something one day.

It could be done very effectively in GURPS, but I all the easy ways I
can think of use technology forbidden in the standard GURPS Traveller
universe.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 07:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 06:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] prejudice (OT)
References: <116.14e786df.2a7d2ad1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <009801c23af1$c17b2e40$0905bd50@martinjd>

> Does this damn 40 year olds?  Does this damn women?

You said you'd do it. I felt strongly enough that you shouldn't that I used
that word.

>
>  >I believe in absolute standards - good enough for the combat area is the
>  >same for everyone, and yes, more men than women are. That's reality. But
if
>  >someone is good enough and actually wants to be there, then they have
the
>  >right to be.
>
> There is no right to be in the military.

Okay. "I believe that people have the basic right to self-determination. If
the military exists and some people want to be in it, they have the right to
try to meet its absolute standards and if they do, to be accepted. IE the
right not to be debarred from service on the grounds of a generalization."

Is that better?


>
> And good heavens, I agree.  But joining the army is not the same.  The
army
> needs people it can definitely train now, that it can depend on to be able
to
> do certain things now, and that are tough enough to get it done now.  Most
> women don't meet some of those criteria, and bringing in large numbers of
> them in the hope that a few will rise to what is required is the same as
> bringing in a large number of 40 year olds in the hope that some of them
will
> rise to what is required.  Whatever the gain here and there, the effort
> overall is counter-productive.

I don't really disagree. But you said you're remove all of them and their
right to try to be what they want. I can't agree with that. I want effective
people in the military and anyone who isn't should be washed out. But I do
not belive that you can simply generalize a segment of the populace out of
the military, becuase I know that at least a proportion of them will be good
enough.

I notice that you're "done here" about the fleet thing. From where I'm
sitting, that seems to mean you've dismissed all the arguments I raised and
decided that you don't need to think about them. You still haven't
adequately explained what you mean to do about an enemy that won't give you
that pre-arranged setpiece. Or in any other "real war" situation either.

In fact, all you've actually said is "there will be a set-piece and I will
win it. All else is trivial".
Nice theory. Doesn't work, but it's nice.







From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 07:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 06:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Firearms in Vacumn
References: <20803.011715.6z8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3D4BD8C7.43D0D0AA@mindspring.com>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
>
> >>
> >> Do you still have any copies of The Model Rocketeer? Mine got lost a
> >> long time ago :-(
> >
> > I think so, I'll have a look next time I'm cleaning that part of the garage.
> > Anything in particular
> > or do you want that article on underwater launches?
> 
> Well, I'd like to have a set of the silly things, or at least a decent
> scan of them.
> 

Leonard, I don't mind scanning a few articles, but we're talking YEARS of issues(14 IIRC). I don't
have the time to scan them all, nor the inclination to give them up. I will however look for that
article.

-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 07:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 06:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"
References: <11c.14d66d9e.2a7ce27f@aol.com> <005301c23ad6$a4ab5760$1d17bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3D4BD9A0.DAF7946B@mindspring.com>

MJ Dougherty wrote:> 
> This sort of thing happens in war all the time. War is a tapestry of misery
> and suffering, most of it needless.
> 
> People demand that we go to do what must be done ( or sometimes protest
> about it and refuse to see why it must be done) then condemn the military
> when innocents get hurt.
> 
> The answer? Learn to get along and abolish conflict.
> Until then, we must accept the paradox and try to do the best we can not to
> cause needless suffering. But we will, all the same.
> That's why this world sucks.

If only it did suck. Unfortunately it blows. :( 


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 07:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 06:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonabo Class Missile Frigate
References: <c1.24afabf6.2a7d092f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4BDD16.BDE2D5BF@mindspring.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> 
>  Incidentally, it goes without saying that these things kill TL E- ships
>  quite nicely.
> 
> TL E is very vulnerable.  The meson screens and nuke dampers are weak.
> 
> I think this is a better design:
> 
> 1000 ton hull
> J4
> M6
> Armor4
> 100 ton missile bay (holds 100 salvos)
> etc
>

FWIW, in MT it states in the referees manual p74 that the ROF fro a missile bay is 2, ROF for
turrets is 1. Each launcher in a turret holds one missile(3 missiles per b/r per turret in the
battery), 100 dton bays hold 100 missiles(50 missiles per b/r), 50 dton bays hold 50 missiles(25
missiles per b/r). 

Storage of additional missiles costs 0.1 Kl@, weight goes up if you want magazines capable of
storing nuclear or antimatter missiles. It states that a 100 ton bay used as a magazine can hold
13500 missiles, but not launch them, meaning the gunners have to hump 50 missiles out of storage
after two shots of a hundred ton bay.
I also only allow them to store HE missiles in bays. 

Which is why I use dedicated magazines for any military ship that needs more than one or two battery
rounds. And why the PC's in my campaign bought a 50 b/r magazine for each missile turret. Not that
they've ever fired all 50 b/r's. I think the most they ever used in one engagement is 6 b/r's.

-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 07:41:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 06:41:53 2002
Subject: [TML] damning (OT)
Message-ID: <191.ae4ea8c.2a7d3751@aol.com>

 >>  >Yeah, and I've seen human beings who were skilled and competent and
 >>  >determined and motivated and just plain better than me being kept down
 >>  >because they were born female. You can't damn half the human race on a
 >>  >generality.
 >>
 >> "Damn"?
 >
 >Condemn to medicrity, to second-class citizenship, to be denied things that
 >they want for arbitrary reasons, despite their determination, talent and
 >potential.
 >
 >What you seem to want to do is to set limits for people.

I'm not the one setting them.

The Army (and by Army I mean all the branches) generally refuses to enlist 
any 40 year old male (unless they're a chaplain or a doctor).  Are there some 
40 year old males who could do just fine in the Army?  Yes.  Does refusing 
them entry condemn them to mediocrity, to second-class citizenship?  No.  
Does it limit their potential despite their determination and talent?  Yes, 
but there are other avenues for determination and talent.  Why does the Army 
do this?  Because 40 year olds, as a whole, have sufficient problems that the 
Army knows it will lose more in attempting to incorporate them than it will 
gain.

The Army's job is not to help people gain their potential, realize all their 
talents, grant citizenship or status, or provide a career track.  It is to 
wage war.  The large numbers of women who cannot measure up physically to the 
task, who become pregnant at sea and are shipped home leaving others to do 
their work, who load up the ranks as single mothers who are undeployable, 
outweigh the contributions of those women who perform as needed.  The only 
reason this has gone on for as long as it has is because the word has come 
down the chain:  "You will make this work.  There will be no problems."  But 
there are problems, serious problems with performance, reliability, 
deployability, and discipline, and to deny it is a disservice to the defense 
of the U.S.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 07:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 06:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] System Gen Help
Message-ID: <c9.261a11c4.2a7d38e2@aol.com>

 >> I am doing an extended system generation.  I rolled
 >> for #6 to be the max orbit.  I also rolled for 2
 >> captured planets.  One is in orbit 6.3 and the other
 >> is in 6.0
 >> 
 >> Orbit 6 and 5 are both SGG's.  4 is the mainworld and
 >> the habitable zone.
 >> 
 >> Is this legitimate?  Or do I need to move the captured
 >> planet in orbit 6.0 to somewhere else.
 >
 >I don't know of any written rule to cover this (someone speak  up
 >if they know of one)

Book six says to place captured planets where you roll them, in disregard of 
any other pre-existing system feature.  Makes sense.

If a captured planet is in a gas giant's orbit though then it should become a 
moon or impact the gas giant eventually, or perhaps eventually be thrown out 
of orbit away from or towards the star.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 07:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 06:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <26.2ba24f20.2a7d3a88@aol.com>

 >> >Has anyone noted the set up with regards to the number of starports that
 >>  >can produce starships versus those that can only builld system ships?
 And
 >>  >to make matters worse, there aren't that many high tech star ports
 around
 >>
 >> I have.  It does make a big difference, doesn't it?  "If my ships are
 cheaper
 >> I'll be able to build more of them!"  No you can't.
 >
 >
 >See above comment that HG/TCS does not adequately provide a realistic naval
 >warfare system. But it is a cool game.

How does one create a "realistic warfare system" with technology that doesn't 
actually exist?  If a given system is simply consistent and workable then 
that should provide many opportunities.  Yes, it is a cool game.  Now if I 
could just get someone to play ....

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] damning (OT)
References: <191.ae4ea8c.2a7d3751@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001001c23af8$d8a53000$bf10bd50@martinjd>

>  >
>  >What you seem to want to do is to set limits for people.
>
> I'm not the one setting them.

You said you'd remove all females from the services. How's that different
from setting a limit?

> The Army's job is not to help people gain their potential, realize all
their
> talents, grant citizenship or status, or provide a career track.

Never said it was.

>It is to
> wage war.

Yes.

>The large numbers of women who cannot measure up physically to the
> task, who become pregnant at sea and are shipped home leaving others to do
> their work, who load up the ranks as single mothers who are undeployable,
> outweigh the contributions of those women who perform as needed.

Perhaps. So we need a better system, better screening. We also need to get
rid of the men who join up and then smuggle drugs across the Canadian border
in their trucks, and all the others who don't come up to scratch. But once
you start dismissing whole segements of the population on arbitary
distinctions then you deny people the opportunity to be the best. Heck, the
potential savior of our nation (s) could be even now be being turned away at
a recruiting station because she's a girl.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"
References: <11c.14d66d9e.2a7ce27f@aol.com> <005301c23ad6$a4ab5760$1d17bd50@martinjd> <3D4BD9A0.DAF7946B@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c23af9$02c7a020$bf10bd50@martinjd>

> >
> > The answer? Learn to get along and abolish conflict.
> > Until then, we must accept the paradox and try to do the best we can not
to
> > cause needless suffering. But we will, all the same.
> > That's why this world sucks.
>
> If only it did suck. Unfortunately it blows.


And sometimes makes strange inexplicable grinding sounds like a damaged
washing machine. But it's the one we got...



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <26.2ba24f20.2a7d3a88@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002e01c23afa$280d7200$bf10bd50@martinjd>

>  >
>  >See above comment that HG/TCS does not adequately provide a realistic
naval
>  >warfare system. But it is a cool game.
>
> How does one create a "realistic warfare system" with technology that
doesn't
> actually exist?  If a given system is simply consistent and workable then
> that should provide many opportunities.  Yes, it is a cool game.  Now if I
> could just get someone to play ....

Rephrasing... TCS/HG does not create an environment that I can reconcile
with a believable setting.

As a naval analyst of sorts I can look at your HG/TCS setup from the point
of view of a real war and say "that's going to come apart very quickly".
That's the thing about wargames... they're not about warfighting, they're
about winning within the constraints of the game and rules.

That's fine, but when you try to apply the conclusions from TCS/HG to the
Traveller universe, it does not create a believable setting.

To put that another way, if the Imperium simply said "we'll build a
battle-only fleet. Any conflict will be won in a decisive clash and all else
is trivial" then they'd not be there in Year 100, let alone 1100.





From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] damning (OT)
References: <191.ae4ea8c.2a7d3751@aol.com> <001001c23af8$d8a53000$bf10bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <003801c23afa$49145720$bf10bd50@martinjd>

This has gone on too long, and too far off-topic. 

I'm unilaterally dropping the discussion in the interests of bandwidth.



Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-to-the-Masses
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/





From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The IN in the OTU
Message-ID: <003901c23afa$8f883aa0$bf10bd50@martinjd>

Maybe worth mentioning at this point that all T20 products operate from the
standpoint that fighters are trivial things designed for traffic control,
screening and escort duty. Big ships fight and kill big ships, with the
occasional funky exception.



Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-to-the-Masses
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <200208031427.LZC00036@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Douglas E. Berry"
>1. Are you nuts?
 I'm not hardcore, I'm stupid.

>2. Really nuts?
 You bet!

>3. Can you lie perfectly still while an enemy soldier 
>urinates on you?

Gee, and I thought that this only happened to me!

>4. As in #4, but it is a National Guardsman during a 
>training mission.

No, it was two scouts from the 187th.

>5. Do you stand and remove your hat when you hear GnySgt 
>Carlos Hathcock mentioned?

Yes.
>6. Do you believe in your heart of hearts that there is no 
>such thing as friendly artillery?

I don't trust tac air, either.

>7. When walking in open areas, do you automatically check 
>sight lines and exfil routes?

When my daughter and I walk in the woods in a new place, I 
ask her to tell me where the natural lines of drift are - 
then we don't walk there.

>8. Do you refer to your wife as your spotter?
No, that's my daughter.

>9. Do you/Did you make every target at 300 meters but miss 
>the 50 meter ones?

Yes..  and there's an odd area for me at 700 to 800 meters 
where I get iffy - then I'm OK out to 1200.

>10. We mean it, are you *really* nuts?
You should ask the people I served with.

________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:29:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:29:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re: max hull size
Message-ID: <200208031428.LZC00116@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Matthew Bond says
>Briefly?
>
>When did MT come out? '86 wasn't it? Thats 6 years. HG1 was 
>only out for a year or so. HG1 was published in '79 and HG2 
>in '80.

I'm sorry - I meant HG1 was out briefly.  I think it may have 
been as short as six months.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Fighter Jockettes
Message-ID: <8b.1bef55bd.2a7d449c@aol.com>

>More than a theory actually.  The number of women being trained 
>as fighter pilots continues to climb, and there are many predictions 
>that the number of female fighter pilots will surpass the number of 
>male fighter pilots in not all that many years.  Women in general 
>are shorter, lighter, and have better resistance to g forces (ie they 
>don't black out as quickly) all of which are very useful qualities in 
>modern fighter aircraft. 


The Soviets used women as fighter pilots (and tank crew, and snipers, and 
other things) during WWII and had no complaints. 

One of my favorite anecdotes is the German pilot who was shot down after a 
long "knights of the air"-style duel near an airfield in late 42 or early 43. 
He parachuted safely ot the ground, was rounded up by security, and demanded 
to meet the pilot who had shot him down so he could shake "his" hand. 
According to witnesses he did not believe it when introduced to her, and only 
after she described the fight to him in detail ("You did X, so then I 
side-slipped right and did Y") did he come to attention and salute. Frank 
Chadwick told me he once saw a painting of the scene showing a 
crestfallen-looking German staring at the beaming Soviet woman using her 
hands to re-create the fight, in the style of pilots everywhere and 
every-time.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <200208031448.LZD00692@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Flykiller says
>if paratroopers land nearby then I think it becomes clear 
>that what your MOS is and what your actual job is are two 
>different things.  

This occurs far less often than you think -- and when it 
does, the strategic effects are far smaller and last far 
shorter than is commonly believed.  Combat elements that land 
in the enemy's rear will make mincemeat of non-combat units 
even if the defenders are men.  And the defender's combat 
units will be attracted to the incursion rather quickly.

If one side has a tech level advantage, and numeric 
superiority, I think that it will not happen to the superior 
side at all.

________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <200208031451.LZD00838@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

MJ Dougherty says
>Hey, everyone, he invoked Clif!
>
>Clif has been Invoked!

Hey!  Don't do that!  That's a second invocation!  You know 
what happens if you do it three times!
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
Message-ID: <200208031455.LZD00963@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

john.groth says
>Passive sensors IRL would have ranges in space significanly 
>better than those of active sensors such as radar.
>

I would point out, however, that all such reliance on 
technology may be subject to local conditions.  I managed to 
approach within 50 meters of consultants using their thermal 
pointer (something that detects people moving within 500 
meters of an armored vehicle - I think it's installed on the 
Challenger tank).

Mind you, I was using an umbrella to crawl behind.  They 
couldn't spot me visually, either.  I took a page from German 
tactics in camouflage.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 09:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 08:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <19b.65b1e1c.2a7d49d4@aol.com>

 >Okay. The Zhos have thrown large numbers of light cruisers and "merchant
 >raiders" (armed merchant ships posing as legitimate traffic) across the
 >border and are raiding lightly defended ports, shooting up your logistics
 >train and the Sector Duke is yelling at you that dozens of world governments
 >are yelling at HIM for protection. Many of these raids are by ships in the
 >light or even heavy cruiser class. Some sightings mention capital ships and
 >small task groups. They've probably got support ships out there somewhere
 >too.

Ah, a general overall fleet attack.  You describe a situation some weeks 
after it has begun.  I think my scouts would give me a more accurate picture, 
and sooner.  I will send a message to Deneb to send a fleet.

What is the status of his fleet at Cipango and Cronor?  If he has that much 
out in my areas, then his central fleet is weakened.  If I can put two task 
forces each on Cipango and maybe Ninjar then _his_ logistics train will be 
cut entirely, and they'll provide a welcoming committee to any Zhodie ships 
that straggle back home looking for support.  Further I'll send the fleet 
raider task force to shoot up whatever they can in other worlds in that area. 
 Two can play this game, only I'll do it with concentrated task forces.  Let 
the consule at Cronor yell at _his_ commander:  "There are a thousand 
frigates at Querion!  Do something!"

I'll leave Jewell exposed and do that.  Then I'll send out some of my task 
forces individually to locate and mop up these isolated forces, using an 
extensive scout network to relay information on their activities and ship 
counts.  I'll plot their courses and attempt to determine where they want to 
go.  Not that this would be hard to guess anyway -- I'm sure the Zhodies will 
bypass Pscias and go for Rethe if they can.

 >Zho fleet elements have struck at weak targets on the border, but you don't
 >know it they retired afterward or are advancing.

Assume they're advancing.

 >Your intelligence is a mess of vessel reports,

This can be sorted out.  It may take a few hours, but I'm sure my staff is 
efficient.

 >and while the attacks on
 >minor worlds are trivial from a military standpoint, those are imperial
 >citizens being shot up.

Yes.  They will have to wait.  Soon it will be the Zhodies turn to be shot up.

 >Some border  worlds (again, soft targets) have been
 >assaulted by ground forces and may now be under occupation. The sector duke
 >wants those worlds retaken. He wants the raids stopped.

Everything in due time.  The Duke will have to be a big boy.  And likely he 
is.  When the Zhodie fleet has been rolled back, I'll send in the troop 
transports.  Not until then.

You're trying to make me panic.  I won't.  If the Zhodies have scattered a 
lot of their fleet through my sector then I'll roll them up one at a time 
with my task forces at no risk to myself.  It'll take a while, but it will be 
done.  Zhodane is mostly at tech 14, and tech 14 wallows in the mud against 
tech 15.  I've tried every possible Zhodie fleet combination against the 
Spinward Marches fleet that I can think of, pitting 7 AE worlds against what 
Mora and Trin can build, and his only chance is to stick together.

Instead, I will make the Zhodies panic.  In 500 years the Imperium has never 
taken offensive action against the Zhodane.  The Imperium has always reacted, 
defended, retreated, lost worlds.  I'll make the Zhodies defend and react to 
me.  I will cut their lines, sit astride their repair facilities, and put 
capital ships where they have not been for 500 years, forcing the Zhodies to 
come to me.  Riverland and Cronor used to be Imperial.  I will have them 
back.  When the Imperial Fleet reinforcements arrive, I just might get them.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 09:07:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 08:07:04 2002
Subject: [TML] 40-year olds
Message-ID: <200208031505.LZD01427@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Flykiller says
>Why does the Army do this?  Because 40 year olds, as a 
>whole, have sufficient problems that the Army knows it will 
>lose more in attempting to incorporate them than it will 
>gain.

No, no, no.  The reason the Army won't enlist you is because 
the "useful lifetime" of the older soldier is shorter.  Not 
because you can't pass the PT test.  Training is an expense - 
and once they spend the money, they expect a useful time 
period after that, including reserve time.

Most Delta Force soldiers are between the ages of 35 and 40.  
The Army does not have a problem with age as it pertains to 
performance.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 09:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 08:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <63.f7e6699.2a7d4cf9@aol.com>

 >Modern war - 4th generation war - is fought in the living rooms of the
 >populace. Manipulating them is one of the keys to victory. Give them enough
 >uncountered threats, enough needless deaths, and they'll be demanding peace.

And that will work in my favor, as much of the Spinward Population lives in 
the highly protected worlds of Trin, Mora, Glisten, Rhylanor, and Palique, 
and the main fleet is very close by to Rethe, Louzy, Lunion, Jewell, and 
Vilis.  That's almost half of the Spinward Marches on those planets alone.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 09:16:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sat Aug  3 08:16:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Lawyers (was: re:  sword vs shotgun)
In-Reply-To: <20020803025421.23615.36452.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020803025421.23615.36452.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <dosnku0ivbte9spq255ucevkii8dj0vp8s@4ax.com>

On Fri, 02 Aug 2002 19:54:21 -0700, "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
wrote:

>"Glenn M. Goffin" says
>>I have on many occasions in my career as a lawyer

>Often, I have marvelled at how some of the more intelligent 
>people I have met (successful intelligent people, that is) 
>have a carefully selected lawyer and a carefully selected 
>accountant.

>Most Traveller parties need a full time lawyer - but how many 
>have you seen with one? 

How many lawyers can practice on every planet the party will find itself on
- and how many parties would be able to afford a lawyer that could?

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 09:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 08:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lawyers (was: re:  sword vs shotgun)
Message-ID: <200208031521.LZD02133@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Jeff Zeitlin says
>How many lawyers can practice on every planet the party will 
>find itself on - and how many parties would be able to 
>afford a lawyer that could?
>

It's the end of the shift, and the prisoners shuffle up the 
tunnel, returning to the elevator that brought them down to 
the working face eighteen hours ago.

Near the end of the column of hapless men, John says, "Oh, 
Jeff?  Remind me again about how you didn't think that we 
could afford a lawyer to handle that mercenary contract?"

A guard shouts, "Quiet in the ranks!"
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 09:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 08:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <98.29de0498.2a7d4f0e@aol.com>

 >You're thniking of everything in terms of a mapboard and counters. I'm
 >discussing warfare.

I'm thinking in terms of what the actually constructed vessels will do 
according to the rules, yes.  You are thinking in terms of imagining what you 
think various effects will be.  I'll take the hardware -- such as it is -- 
and I'll have the last word.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 09:23:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 08:23:55 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <19b.65b1e1c.2a7d49d4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <005601c23b03$2b455560$bf10bd50@martinjd>

>
> Ah, a general overall fleet attack.  You describe a situation some weeks
> after it has begun.  I think my scouts would give me a more accurate
picture,
> and sooner.  I will send a message to Deneb to send a fleet.

No, just raiders and "crumbling". No major fleet movements just yet. Though
attempts have been made to look like the fleet is advancing....

>
> What is the status of his fleet at Cipango and Cronor?

Still there.

>If he has that much
> out in my areas, then his central fleet is weakened.  If I can put two
task
> forces each on Cipango and maybe Ninjar then _his_ logistics train will be
> cut entirely, and they'll provide a welcoming committee to any Zhodie
ships
> that straggle back home looking for support.

He's got cruiers and light commerce raiders in your space for the most part.
No fleet. Now his fleet can mass against your cutoff task forces, and smash
them with local superiority.

F>urther I'll send the fleet
> raider task force to shoot up whatever they can in other worlds in that
area.
>  Two can play this game, only I'll do it with concentrated task forces.
Let
> the consule at Cronor yell at _his_ commander:  "There are a thousand
> frigates at Querion!  Do something!"

You have a fleet raider task force? I thought you just had battleships. And
of course he can commit his fleet (held back after the initial deception
raid) against your raiders, or the cutoff squadrons. No fear of not being
able to find them, since they're concentrated and hitting predicatble
targets.

>
> I'll leave Jewell exposed and do that.  Then I'll send out some of my task
> forces individually to locate and mop up these isolated forces, using an
> extensive scout network to relay information on their activities and ship
> counts.

Yopu'll disperse your fleet to chase moving ghosts. Yes please.

>I'll plot their courses and attempt to determine where they want to
> go.  Not that this would be hard to guess anyway -- I'm sure the Zhodies
will
> bypass Pscias and go for Rethe if they can.

Part of the trick in commerce raiding is to move semi-randomly.

>
>  >Zho fleet elements have struck at weak targets on the border, but you
don't
>  >know it they retired afterward or are advancing.
>
> Assume they're advancing.

Excellent.

>
>  >Your intelligence is a mess of vessel reports,
>
> This can be sorted out.  It may take a few hours, but I'm sure my staff is
> efficient.

No, I mean that there are similar vessels all over the place, dissimilar
ones too, your mass of scouts is losing ships and your intelligence is, as I
said, a mess. So is theirs, of course, but the point is that you don't know
where their fleet is.

>
>  >and while the attacks on
>  >minor worlds are trivial from a military standpoint, those are imperial
>  >citizens being shot up.
>
> Yes.  They will have to wait.  Soon it will be the Zhodies turn to be shot
up.

You'll ignore the nobles and the people shouting for something to be done?
Well, you can try. But what military has not been constrained by poitcal
pressure from within?
>
>  >Some border  worlds (again, soft targets) have been
>  >assaulted by ground forces and may now be under occupation. The sector
duke
>  >wants those worlds retaken. He wants the raids stopped.
>
> Everything in due time.  The Duke will have to be a big boy. And likely he
> is.  When the Zhodie fleet has been rolled back, I'll send in the troop
> transports.  Not until then.

I think thus pretty much shows me what I wanted to know. You're considering
the military dimension only here.

>
> You're trying to make me panic.  I won't.  If the Zhodies have scattered a
> lot of their fleet through my sector

No, they've sent their raider forces plus some old battleships trying to
look like a major force. Their fleet never actually advcanced, just raided
and fell back. It's rearmed and heading for your task forces I mentioned
above.

>then I'll roll them up one at a time
> with my task forces at no risk to myself.

See above. You'll chase them about with superior forces, weakening your main
fleet. You'll catch and kill some of them, but where's their main fleet?

>It'll take a while, but it will be
> done.  Zhodane is mostly at tech 14, and tech 14 wallows in the mud
against
> tech 15.  I've tried every possible Zhodie fleet combination against the
> Spinward Marches fleet that I can think of, pitting 7 AE worlds against
what
> Mora and Trin can build, and his only chance is to stick together.
>
> Instead, I will make the Zhodies panic.  In 500 years the Imperium has
never
> taken offensive action against the Zhodane.  The Imperium has always
reacted,
> defended, retreated, lost worlds.  I'll make the Zhodies defend and react
to
> me.  I will cut their lines, sit astride their repair facilities, and put
> capital ships where they have not been for 500 years, forcing the Zhodies
to
> come to me.  Riverland and Cronor used to be Imperial.  I will have them
> back.  When the Imperial Fleet reinforcements arrive, I just might get
them.

You'll plunge into their space and attack? That's the thing that'll get you
the decisive action you wanted. Of course, their fleet was concentrated
after the initial raids, because I knew you wanted a decisive action and
this was the best way to get it. So now you're at the end of your supply
line, fighting his fleet *and* his local forces, with political problems and
logistics raiding in your rear.

Actually, I'd probably do the same. Point is, it's not a great position to
be in, though it does get you the initiative.

My point, though, is that you have a wargamer's contempt for political
issues and "intangible compplicaitons". If the sector Duke can't afford to
ignore politicval pressure, he'll lean on you, and you'll end up being
forced to do things you don't want. This is the reality of strategy - it's
only partially military.

Your model works fine in isolation, but IMO it falls down in the face of the
sort of thing that happens in real wars - friction, political necessity etc.

In other words, we're talking about two entirely different situations. I'm
discussing defending a hypothetical sector from equally hypothetical (but
real for the purposes of the exercise) interstellar fleets, and you're
playing High Guard.

I don't think we can accept one another's assumptions, so the exercise is
pointless..







From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 09:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 08:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <73.238e7d1c.2a7d54c4@aol.com>

 >The feint/outfeint is one of the risks of war. I may be willing to fight
 >your six with mine, and trust to my ships and crews to win it for me

So we're down from achieving local superiority with feints to trusting your 
ships.

 >As to a dumb enemy... fair comment. I've heard the "enemy" make a number of
 >sweeping pronounbcements of the "oh, I'd just" that make me confident that
 >once reality intruded, friction would render this enemy less capable than he
 >thinks.

Well, I'd just have to see that I have twelve ships and a nearby repair base 
to your six exposed, and I'd just have to struggle along making the best of 
it.

In truth, I don't know what you mean by "feint".  HG doesn't seem to have 
much scope for maneuver -- the fleets are just there, at long or short range. 
 If you mean by jumping out and then jumping back then I can see that, but 
does the book say whether or not you can determine jump distance and 
direction from watching the (I'm sure) considerable EM signature of the jump? 
 I know it doesn't in 2 or 5 or 6, or what navigation times are, or anything.

The fact of the matter is that if a fleet tries to be strong everywhere it 
will be weak everywhere, and the enemy will be able to concentrate and just 
roll on in.  Gathering up the scattered fleet to face this concentration 
would take months, and in the meantime the invader would wander around 
unchecked.  It seems to me that whether the defender is scattered or 
concentrated the invader has the advantage in either circumstance, and 
there's nothing to be done about except to attempt to close or to invade 
_him_.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes
In-Reply-To: <4957.64.8.3.28.1028349006.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <4957.64.8.3.28.1028349006.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <m37kj7exgi.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

hal@buffnet.net writes:
> 
> In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head tax" or does it
> charge an income tax on its citizens for its Imperial Budget
> requirements?  In short, if the Imperial government taxes 10% of a
> Gross Planetary Product, then it would in essence be an income tax.
> If it charges a flat 500 CR per person on a planet, then it is a
> head tax.  Which is it?

I like a head tax, but that's ;ause I like em in real life as well.  

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Modern art is what happens when painters stop looking at girls and
persuade themselves that they have a better idea.    --John Ciardi

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOELACEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOELACEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <m33ctvexcp.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net> writes:
> 
> > But I'm certainly no expert on gender differences.
> 
> To paraphrase my late father, no man is.

Or can reasonably hope to be...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Every man, woman, and responsible child has a natural, fundamental,
and inalienable human, individual, civil, and Constitutional right
(within the limits of the Non-Aggression Principle) to obtain, own,
and carry, openly or concealed, any weapon--handgun, shotgun, rifle,
machinegun, anything--any time, anywhere, without asking anyone's
permission.                                       --L. Neil Smith

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
Message-ID: <F4088vi4IdT87AtHRip00025342@hotmail.com>

From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>

    "Just a reminder that there's stuff on the Citizens website."


Sir,

     Okay, I'll bite, you pseudo-spammed [  8^)  ] us with three messages 
about the CotI website so it must be important...
     What's the big announcement/product release/article/whatever that's 
been posted over there?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in traveller)
In-Reply-To: <199.acd8aa3.2a7cea81@aol.com>
References: <199.acd8aa3.2a7cea81@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3y9bndi8f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
>
> > That kind of setup might be cheap when it came to starship life
> > support costs, but I imagine the impact on the soldiers' psyches
> > would be extreme.
> 
> Not if they were only asleep during jumps.  "Good morning, we're
> passing through Regina and the captain decided you should all spend
> some money there for a few days."  And soldiers won't be spending
> years on ships anyway--they'll only be there when in transport.
> Kind of hard to practice armored maneuvers on the mess deck.

No, 'cause they'd still not get the full rest needed.  My
greatgrandfather and grandfather took well over a month to return to
the US after WWI & WWII; my father was back in college in 48 or so
hours after his time in Vietnam.  Granted, that's _some_ rest time,
but it's not nearly enough.  You don't find as much PTSD in fellows
who got to slowly make their way back home, adjust to the new reality
&c.; you find quite a lot in guys who are plucked up from one
situation and dropped in another.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Virtues foster one another; so too, vices.  Bad English kills trees,
consumes energy, and befouls the Earth.  Good English renews it.
                                  --The Underground Grammarian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <200208031455.LZD00963@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208031455.LZD00963@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <m3u1mbdi0l.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:
> 
> Mind you, I was using an umbrella to crawl behind.  They couldn't
> spot me visually, either.  I took a page from German tactics in
> camouflage.

Oh, so you _weren't_ wearing a bright blue coat and bright red pants?
However did you retain your lan?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Gun control: the theory that a woman found raped and strangled in an
alley is morally superior to a woman explaining why her attacker got a
fatal bullet wound.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <3D4C0537.C9A63C5E@ameritech.net>

> From: Flykiller@aol.com
> Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 03:57:07 EDT
>
> I'm afraid we've been talking two different systems.  I've been 
> talking CT HG1, but everyone seems to be talking about something 
> else.  CT HG1 only distinguishes between hull sizes on to-hit 
> adjustments, not hull types. 

The hull type is a roll to penetrate defence. It's not a to hit 
modifier.

> I'm afraid I don't know HG2, or for that matter any of the others, 
> and it seems HG1 has been deprecated.

HG2 is also for CT. It replaced HG1 in 1980 (one year after the 
introduction of HG1) and is considered the definitive version.

Hey list mom is this in the faq?

> Yeah, see in HG1 a factor 9 meson cannot penetrate any meson
> screen of 3 or higher, and any capital ship is going to have 
> meson screen 9.

It's the same in HG2.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
In-Reply-To: <sd495bcc.012@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
References: <sd495bcc.012@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
Message-ID: <02080118161500.01437@linux>

On Thursday 01 August 2002 04:03 pm, you wrote:
> Would a world that has 80% of its surface covered by water, a dense
> nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, and one moon that is large enough to exert a
> tidal effect tend to be more or less climatically active? Assume
> moderate (terran-normal) vulcanism and a fairly non-polluting early TL
> aqua/agricultural society. Also assume standard polar ice caps and
> rotation around 20 deg. off the plane of the ecliptic. I'll welcome any
> and all comments...

	It seems to me that axial tilt would be of greatest concern or possibly land 
distributions and the resulting distribution of albedoes not to mention 
affecting wind/ocean currents.
	Aren't there reasonable tools on the net for running a simulation of this?
Can the old program Simearth be used to test world setups? If not then maybe 
someone could be kind enough to fill this gap in ref tools ala starform. And 
could that someone make it compile/run under linux please?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:34:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:34:05 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <d7.1b1aa813.2a792099@aol.com>
References: <d7.1b1aa813.2a792099@aol.com>
Message-ID: <02080119251701.01437@linux>

>
> I have to say I'm in favor of the "simple kludge".  this is, after all, a
> fantasy role-playing game.  most of the technology being discussed doesn't
> exist and isn't even on the horizon.  I don't think "realism" carries much
> weight in such an environment.  you're supposed to adventure, not engineer.

	I agree with you that this is a RPG and realism doesn't carry much weight 
really...so why not play dnd instead?
	To be honest, I really don't 'play' the game but I like to tinker with it as 
a simulation and thus I like to try to make it more accurate. That is how I 
enjoy Traveller. I know that many aspects of it have no analog in the real 
world, but the aspects that do match, should match the RW as close as is 
possible if it can be done without sacrificng playability.
	To do otherwise would to make   many threads on the TML as a pile of 
steaming jgdkkf . To me, this is no different than arguing about guass gun 
muzzle velocities or the best way of disposing of bodies.
	Sorry...this is how I am.

btw.......Imperial nobles IMHO can be modelled after the Catholic Church of 
the middle ages. 
	Pope=Emperor
	Bishops, Arch-Bishops, Cardinals...etc= Various high nobles
	fathers,priests ...etc= lower nobles
The held massive amounts of power without holding the reigns of any single 
country. Yet no king would dare go against the Pope in those days.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:34:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:34:55 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <001601c238a9$261f2900$7919bd50@martinjd>
References: <200207311448.LTP02792@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <001601c238a9$261f2900$7919bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <02080120122002.01437@linux>

> If you're scrambling to put together some kind of resistance to an attack,
> then immense-risk-of-death is acceptable to patriotic volunteers because
> they see it as the only way to win. If you're building a fleet in case you
> have to fight, then survivability is a requisite.
>
	Why not just determine if youd get volunteers using morale rules from 
striker or mt ref's companion (same  as each other really)?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
In-Reply-To: <F4088vi4IdT87AtHRip00025342@hotmail.com>
References: <F4088vi4IdT87AtHRip00025342@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <200208031245370897.51623A1B@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

>From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
>
>    "Just a reminder that there's stuff on the Citizens website."
>
>
>Sir,
>
>     Okay, I'll bite, you pseudo-spammed [  8^)  ] us with three messages 
>about the CotI website so it must be important...
>     What's the big announcement/product release/article/whatever that's 
>been posted over there?

I think he is just trying to draw attention to the new Traveller webzine we=
 have opened, rather than anything specific. We are looking for writers and=
 of course readers! It's free, and we are paying for article submissions=
 that are accepted for publication.

BTW, if anyone is attending GenCon this year, be sure to stop by the QLI=
 booth (#841). Marc will be there as our guest and we'll have copies of T20=
 Lite fresh off the presses!

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:46:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:46:55 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <20020801182132.8dc5803e76f94f1f98d7b72b3352174c.in@keywest.kennett.net>
References: <20020801182132.8dc5803e76f94f1f98d7b72b3352174c.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <02080312521500.00601@linux>

>
> FYI, the Brewster Buffalo has such a bad reputation because of its poor
> combat performance against the Japanese.  Yet we are talking about the same
> fighter that managed to beat the Grummen Wildcat in the US Navy's
> competition for a carrier fighter just before World War 2.  If Brewster had
> not proven so inept in actually building and upgrading the fighter, then we
> would be seeing Buffalos tangling with Zeros at Midway....
>

The Finns LOVED the Buffalo. They thought it did a wonderful job against the 
enemy. Brewster just went overboard in trying to improve it by adding more 
weapons and armour than it had power to carry. Also at that time our fighter 
tactics were poor while Japan had been parctising in China since 1937
The Zero was not that great of a plane. WEak guns and no armour. Its ailerons 
locked solid at over 220 mph. Great in a turning fight but lousy in anything 
else.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] PLSS duration
Message-ID: <3816d337dc90.37dc903816d3@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Monday, July 29, 2002 11:06 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] PLSS duration

> In mail you write:
> 
> > shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
> >> 
> >> The need to defecate is likely to be the limit.  Short of nanotech,
> >> dealing with that in a suit is a real pain.  Stay in the suit too
> >> long and you have to deal with a *nasty* case of diaper rash.
> >
> > Well, you could have a water-spray which cleans one--the water runs
> > down the legs and is vented from the feet.  Spray enough and 
> you'd be
> > clean.  I'll grant it'd take some getting used to, but if the
> > alternative is being toasted, I think most will take it.
> 
> "enough" is apt to be a lot more water than you can afford to 
> vent. And
> trust me, you *will* have stuff left behind on the way down. 
> 
> And you are assuming gravity, as well.

I wonder if a sort of mini-airlock could be devised to deal with the 
issue.  Although sitting in regular chairs might be a problem.... ;-)




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Junk in space
Message-ID: <3865583847de.3847de386558@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
Date: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 3:49 am
Subject: Re: [TML] Junk in space

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
> > On the other hand, a 2 cm chunk of something is going to do more
> > than leave a dent.
> 
> Such a chunk probably has a kinetic energy of about 1 MJ at best, and
> very likely is travelling at substantially less than the speed of
> sound in starship hull material.
> 
> I think "make a dent" would be about right.  If one ever hit, 
> which it
> wouldn't unless the sensors were crippled.

Why am I reminded of the "ravioli railgun" post of several years ago?  
(I'd repost it again, except that it's on one of my computers back 
Stateside....)

IIRC, one of our Scandinavian list members also has it archived.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Check Your Landgrabs!
Message-ID: <3D4C1132.3C2572D6@mail.cswnet.com>

Just floated over to the CotI site and looked up
their version of the Spinward Marches. Arba's
population has gone from 550 to 100.

Everything else seems to be the same.

Those with landgrabs may want to check and see if 
there are any significant changes. I'd be interested
to know if anyone else's landgrab systems got altered
significantly.

Anyone now what T20's historical time frame is, if
it has one?

Now I'm thinking. Moving Nimmi Shis away from the
starport turns out to have been good planing. We
can waste the town, leave downport intact, and
have enough population left to cover the new
population figure. Quite a few BM's will bite the
dust, but the Taylors and the Tacans will still
be around. If the history works out right, we
can blame it all on the Sword Worlders.

Course, that supposes that I would want to have it
that way. Since I live in CT land, I just may decide
to ignore this little bit.

CT Arba pop 600
BTC Arba pop 550
T20 Arba pop 100

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <20020803173031.AB7754508@mo130uhou.palm.net>

john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:
[snip]
>This and many more fine quotes may be found on Mark Urbin's Web site: 
>http://www.urbin.net/EWW/sigs/rpg-sigs.html

 Thanks for the plug!
When that page gets big enough to split up, Penguin Boy gets his own wing...
----------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:33:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:33:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Check Your Landgrabs!
In-Reply-To: <3D4C1132.3C2572D6@mail.cswnet.com>
References: <3D4C1132.3C2572D6@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <200208031332570059.518D8C96@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 8/3/2002 at 12:21 PM Roseberry wrote:

>Just floated over to the CotI site and looked up
>their version of the Spinward Marches. Arba's
>population has gone from 550 to 100.
>
>Everything else seems to be the same.
>
>Those with landgrabs may want to check and see if 
>there are any significant changes. I'd be interested
>to know if anyone else's landgrab systems got altered
>significantly.
>
>Anyone now what T20's historical time frame is, if
>it has one?

The data other than for Ley Sector may be off. I am still looking for a=
 good set of definative SEC files for that section of the website. If=
 anyone can point to me to some or has good copies based on the AotI data,=
 I would appreciate it!

The Ley Sector data is based on our upcoming material and is set around=
 year 1000.

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"
In-Reply-To: <005301c23ad6$a4ab5760$1d17bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <B971637A.67A12%listmom@travellercentral.com>

Please relate this to Traveller

Listmom


on 8/3/02 3:14 AM, MJ Dougherty at martinjd@globalnet.co.uk wrote:

>> 
>> I rest my case.
>> 
>> "It's Milosivic's fault we bombed a convoy of farmers!"
>> "It's Arafat's fault we bombed that apartment building!"
>> "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a convoy of inauguration representatives
> on
>> the open road!"
>> 
>> If I were to act with this level of disregard even in defense of my own
>> children, I'd be in jail.  McVeigh was right -- "collateral damage" covers
> a
>> multitude of sins.
> 
> This sort of thing happens in war all the time. War is a tapestry of misery
> and suffering, most of it needless.
> 
> People demand that we go to do what must be done ( or sometimes protest
> about it and refuse to see why it must be done) then condemn the military
> when innocents get hurt.
> 
> The answer? Learn to get along and abolish conflict.
> Until then, we must accept the paradox and try to do the best we can not to
> cause needless suffering. But we will, all the same.
> That's why this world sucks.

-- 
listmom@travellercentral.com
for list information see
http://lists.travellercentral.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:42:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:42:06 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <fc.1bc430d6.2a7d06b7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B97163D2.67A14%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/3/02 3:13 AM, Flykiller@aol.com at Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>> Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
>> big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.
> 
> What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other sensor systems
> you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?


Nothing says that mines need to be static, waiting for something to hit
them.  A mine could be nothing more than a large missile with high
acceleration and short range waiting for some ship to come into range.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <001401c23ae8$dcdeae40$0905bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <B97164B2.67A15%listmom@travellercentral.com>

Please relate this to Traveller or move it to TML-Chat


on 8/3/02 5:25 AM, MJ Dougherty at martinjd@globalnet.co.uk wrote:

>> circles around the vast majority of the females I've seen, no
> exaggeration.
> 
> On the flip side, two of my friends (female friends) are more determined and
> in absolute terms more capable than half the men in our martial arts class.
> They're better than many who hold higher grades. They'd be barred under your
> rules.
> 
>> that's not damning women, and that's not prejudice.
> 
> Deciding the fate of half the human race - pre-judging their capabilities -
> becuase of gender. Nah, that's notuing like prejudice.
> 
> Of course, the poor dears can't be expected to understand politics, manage
> an estate or run a business either. Any you know? they couldn't do it. Not
> until someone let them try.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

-- 
listmom@travellercentral.com
for list information see
http://lists.travellercentral.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Con Jose the World SF Con any Travellers going?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020801092023.45176588@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <200208010315.g713FgD09733@sun.ebtech.net>
Message-ID: <200208031757.g73Hv6x10235@sun.ebtech.net>

Actually Anne Murphy in publications is a friend of mine.
I'll be staying in the party hotel and working in the Hilton.

Let's try and do something.


> At 11:12 PM 7/31/2002 -500, you wrote:
> >Hi I'll be at Con Jose working the Coffeeklatches
> >
> >Anyone else planning on attending?
> 
> I'll be there, working publications.
> 
> >Maybe we could get together over a meal to talk Traveller.
> 
> It would be fun.  May I suggest that anyone attending ConJose subscribe to
> Travller in SF.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TravellerinSF/
> 
> So we can coordinate a meeting time and place.  If we want to do an actual
> dinner, I need to know how many people are coming. -- 
> 
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
> 
> "Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
> - Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] damning (OT) PLEASE STOP
In-Reply-To: <191.ae4ea8c.2a7d3751@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B971661B.67A21%listmom@travellercentral.com>

This whole discussion is both unrelated to Traveller and inflammatory.  If
you wish to continue it, please take it off the TML.  Move it to TML-chat,
whatever.  

Thank You,

Listmom



on 8/3/02 6:40 AM, Flykiller@aol.com at Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> I'm not the one setting them.
> 
> The Army (and by Army I mean all the branches) generally refuses to enlist
> any 40 year old male (unless they're a chaplain or a doctor).  Are there some

[snip]

> there are problems, serious problems with performance, reliability,
> deployability, and discipline, and to deny it is a disservice to the defense
> of the U.S.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

-- 
listmom@travellercentral.com
for list information see
http://lists.travellercentral.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Check Your Landgrabs!
Message-ID: <3D4C1760.CA00C331@mail.cswnet.com>

Hunter Gordon writes:
>The data other than for Ley Sector may be off. I am still looking for >a good set of definative SEC files for that section of the website. >If anyone can point to me to some or has good copies based on the >AotI data, I would appreciate it!

>The Ley Sector data is based on our upcoming material and is set >around year 1000.

Well shoot, if its gonna by year 1000 than I don't have to do anything.
Cool. Just a bunch of prospectors and LSP hangers on.
The LSP starport eventually deteriates to type E, then a new one 
gets built elsewhere by independant colonists around 1083-1084.
Yeah, I can go with that. Mahvelous!

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
 traveller)
In-Reply-To: <m3y9bndi8f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <B97167AA.67A22%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/3/02 9:23 AM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> 
> No, 'cause they'd still not get the full rest needed.  My
> greatgrandfather and grandfather took well over a month to return to
> the US after WWI & WWII; my father was back in college in 48 or so
> hours after his time in Vietnam.  Granted, that's _some_ rest time,
> but it's not nearly enough.  You don't find as much PTSD in fellows
> who got to slowly make their way back home, adjust to the new reality
> &c.; you find quite a lot in guys who are plucked up from one
> situation and dropped in another.

While there is likely a connection between PTSD and rapid reintegration back
into 'normal' life, experts have also linked PSTD to the extensive use of
operant conditioning of soldiers that occurred after WWII.

What provisions does the Imperium make for combat veterans returning to
civilian life?  Are long voyages home sufficient?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: a believable starfaring navy?
Message-ID: <200208031922.g73JMGw03053@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
...
>> >cruiser before it closed and killed the carrier. Or....
>>
>>   Sadly, HG2 doesn't allow those sorts of complications, but
>> any of the hex-based Trav games make riders/carriers _much_
>> less attractive for precisely that reason.
>
>Agreed. This is why I believe that HG/TCS alone do not present a framework
>for creating a believable starfaring navy.

  You can abstract that - there was a thread on SCTA (a HG2 / 
TCS List:  ct-starships@yahoogroups.com ) about that this spring.

  Most carrier/rider solutions also entail reduced Jump efficiency 
due to refuelling, which TCS & 5FW only partly address.

  IIRC, Mr. Smith has a draft for in-system operational actions
up on the net (URL?), which should highlight the downsides of
low-G rider tenders (etc).

  Perhaps BL/BR can be mined for ideas on more purely tactical
limitations of tender dependent forces, such as the pure
excitement of cutting an entry too closely to an enemy force?

The rest of the rider debate is too well attested to merit re-flogging :>

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:28:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:28:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <200208031927.g73JRUw03653@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: sneadj@mindspring.com
>Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 22:16:45 -0700
>Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
...  
>However, Dresden is an amazingly clear cut case.  It was an act of 
>terror and vengeance easily as bad as anything the other side did 
>in it's bombing of civilian targets.

  Arguably it was also a strong message to Uncle Joe, although
I'm far from clear as to why we'd want to say "we're worse than
you" to _that_ regime.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lawyers
In-Reply-To: <20020803114546.E36724505@mo130uhou.palm.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803111851.4727ae50@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:45 AM 8/3/2002 +0000, you wrote:

>"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:
>[snip]
>>Most Traveller parties need a full time lawyer - but how many  
>>have you seen with one?  
>
>Even Doc Savage kept a lawyer in his group. :-)
>Useful for the high Admin skills too...

I played a lawyer in a Repo game.  Eneri Bitterman, Attorney-at-Large.  I
had poor combat skills, but excellent research and people skills.  When
we'd take a ship, I'd present the legal papers claiming the ship due to
loan default.

We had a blast.


Best line: "Hey!  This was a new suit!  Add it to our expenses!"
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:38:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:38:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
 traveller)
In-Reply-To: <m3y9bndi8f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <199.acd8aa3.2a7cea81@aol.com>
 <199.acd8aa3.2a7cea81@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803112050.478f7fe2@pop.mindspring.com>

At 10:23 AM 8/3/2002 -0600, you wrote:

>No, 'cause they'd still not get the full rest needed.  My
>greatgrandfather and grandfather took well over a month to return to
>the US after WWI & WWII; my father was back in college in 48 or so
>hours after his time in Vietnam.  Granted, that's _some_ rest time,
>but it's not nearly enough.  You don't find as much PTSD in fellows
>who got to slowly make their way back home, adjust to the new reality
>&c.; you find quite a lot in guys who are plucked up from one
>situation and dropped in another.

Which we accounted for in Desert Storm.  Most combat units spent a few
weeks getting back into routine before going stateside.

Returning home as a unit helped.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:39:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:39:51 2002
Subject: [TML] prejudice (OT)
In-Reply-To: <116.14e786df.2a7d2ad1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803112905.471757e8@pop.mindspring.com>

At 08:47 AM 8/3/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>And good heavens, I agree.  But joining the army is not the same.  The army 
>needs people it can definitely train now, that it can depend on to be able
>to do certain things now, and that are tough enough to get it done now.  

When I joined the US Army, I could barely do 5 push-ups, 20 situps, and
running 2 miles was out of the question.

Thirteen weeks later, in my final PT test, I did, in 2 minutes, 58 good
push-ups, 69 sit-ups, and ran 2 miles in just under 14 minutes.  I also had
never touched a firearm, but came out an expert marksman with several
weapons.  This is why we have training.

You comparison to a forty year old, is off.  Theoretically, that forty year
old had 22 years to decide to join, he chose not to.  A blanket ban on
women removes the choice.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:40:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:40:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Superstition (and Movies)
In-Reply-To: <d.2aca729a.2a7ca6f7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803113810.4727edae@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:24 PM 8/2/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>The movie MEMPHIS BELLE (the 1990s remake, not the earlier documentary) 
>illustrates this about as accurately as Hollywood ever gets history. It's a 
>pretty good representation of the history involved, including the extreme 
>youth of the aircrew.
>
>"Danny! Jack threw my St Christopher overboard!"
>"Here, take my lucky rubber band . . . it works, honest."

When I was still driving for SuperShuttle I had the honor of carrying one
of the Tuskeegee airmen in my van.  The stories he told me...  Evidently,
one of the pilots *had* to do a barrel-roll on take-off.  He's done it
once, and gotten his first kill.  So he did it everytime.  Another pilot
touched the muzzles of all the MGs before boarding.

>Several years ago, I was toying with the notion of writing a book of war 
>movie reviews discussing the relative level of accuracy of each (although I 
>think it has already been done). GETTYSBURG is one of my faves in this 
>regard. 

Great film.  "General, I have no division..."
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <m3k7n8eh5f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <3.0.5.16.20020802200157.46a789a6@pop.mindspring.com>
 <3.0.5.16.20020802200157.46a789a6@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803114257.497f3788@pop.mindspring.com>

At 09:49 PM 8/2/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes:
>>
>> Oh, and an NCO having sex with a solider in the same chain of
>> command is a violation of the UCMJ.  They deserved to get busted.
>
>That's a nice enough theory, but if one throws a bunch of 18-20
>yr. old boys and girls together they're going to get randy.  That's
>the Way It Is, regardless of what the rules are.  At least if one
>believes the modern prattle that one's sexual drive is irresistible,
>then one cannot hold anyone to account for giving in to said drive.
>And if one _doesn't_ hold to said prattle, then there's a whole load
>of other things one must abandon.

A NCO is supposed to be in better control of him/herself.  If that NCO is
out of control, then take away the stripes.

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:42:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:42:56 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <40.21b2d6f0.2a7cfea7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803114514.4717ac00@pop.mindspring.com>

At 05:38 AM 8/3/2002 EDT, you wrote:
> >And I daresay that if we have women serving in full combat capacity
> >under the regimes of either seperate standards (i.e. where they must
> >not meet the same standards as men) or reduced standards (e.g. I
> >understand that two-man stretcher teams are now four or more), we will
> >see plenty of human beings who die miserably because their comrades
> >are not up to the task.
>
>Actually, I'll bet we won't.  The military is talking now about how much 
>future warfare will be on the level of special ops, utilizing local troops 
>and only sending in special forces to coordinate bomb strikes, like in 
>Afghanistan.
>
>Army?  What army?

And in 1960 we knew that the next war was going to be on the North German
plains and involve massive tank formations.

Vietnam?  Where's that?
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Embrace Fascism.    The uniforms look cool


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:43:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:43:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <00e801c23adc$47c368c0$1d17bd50@martinjd>
References: <20020802231503.19852.60096.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <3D4B3637.35538EB8@mailbag.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803114655.4717ae96@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:54 AM 8/3/2002 +0100, you wrote:

>You mean Clif!
>
>Hey, everyone, he invoked Clif!
>
>Clif has been Invoked!

Aieee!!! you said it three times!  At least no one has mentioned Leroy yet... 
oh, damn.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"Some days, you just can't get rid  of a bomb!"
                    -Adam West, as Batman 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:44:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:44:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <39.2b0d8fbb.2a7d17c6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803114832.4717769c@pop.mindspring.com>

At 07:25 AM 8/3/2002 EDT, you wrote:

> >I also saw many male soldiers who whined and always seemed to be on
>profile.
>
>Many?  I saw a small handful -- in boot camp.  None of them passed.  Outside 
>of that, it was just normal morale problems.  My first reserve unit was top 
>notch, the navy men complained but were reliable and tough, and my next 
>reserve unit seemed to have nothing but capable people (except for a few 
>opportunistic bureaucrats).  I can't speak to where you were, but I've been 
>to some places and seen some environments, and I can't say I've seen "many" 
>male whiners or sick-bay commandos.

Many.  It might help that I was infantry.  I saw guys who were constantly
on profile, whined about their recruiters, and started their ETS countdown
with three years left in the service.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:45:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:45:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <19b.65b1e1c.2a7d49d4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803121034.44ff804c@pop.mindspring.com>

At 10:59 AM 8/3/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>Ah, a general overall fleet attack.  You describe a situation some weeks 
>after it has begun.  I think my scouts would give me a more accurate
picture, 
>and sooner.  I will send a message to Deneb to send a fleet.

Two months to get there at Jump-6.  Assuming an entire fleet is ready to
rush to your aid, 2-3 months to get it to the front.

>What is the status of his fleet at Cipango and Cronor?  If he has that much 
>out in my areas, then his central fleet is weakened.  If I can put two task 
>forces each on Cipango and maybe Ninjar then _his_ logistics train will be 
>cut entirely, and they'll provide a welcoming committee to any Zhodie ships 
>that straggle back home looking for support.  Further I'll send the fleet 
>raider task force to shoot up whatever they can in other worlds in that
area. 

What are his war goals?  If it is disrupting the Imperial confidence in the
sector, you will not be able to justify your move politically!  Remember,
in WWII the US went on the offensive only after Midway.

> Two can play this game, only I'll do it with concentrated task forces.  Let 
>the consule at Cronor yell at _his_ commander:  "There are a thousand 
>frigates at Querion!  Do something!"

Meanwhile there are a hundred ships at Jewell, Efate, Pixie.. destroying
naval bases and advanced starports.  He has a shorter line of support than
you.  Assuming that he started the attack, he also has more stockpiled
replacements.

>I'll leave Jewell exposed and do that.  Then I'll send out some of my task 
>forces individually to locate and mop up these isolated forces, using an 
>extensive scout network to relay information on their activities and ship 
>counts.  I'll plot their courses and attempt to determine where they want to 
>go.  Not that this would be hard to guess anyway -- I'm sure the Zhodies
will 
>bypass Pscias and go for Rethe if they can.

Any information you get will be at *least* a week out of date.  More likely
several weeks old.  How do you know that while you are chasing down raiders
the real main fleet isn't descending upon Regina?

> >Zho fleet elements have struck at weak targets on the border, but you don't
> >know it they retired afterward or are advancing.
>
>Assume they're advancing.

No.  You assume they are advancing.  You won't be sure until later.. much
later.
>
> >Your intelligence is a mess of vessel reports,
>
>This can be sorted out.  It may take a few hours, but I'm sure my staff is 
>efficient.

Try days.  And there is always a piece missing.  Read up on Market Garden

> >and while the attacks on
> >minor worlds are trivial from a military standpoint, those are imperial
> >citizens being shot up.
>
>Yes.  They will have to wait.  Soon it will be the Zhodies turn to be shot
up.

A bit harsh, yes?  Your job is to defend the Imperium!

>Everything in due time.  The Duke will have to be a big boy.  And likely he 
>is.  When the Zhodie fleet has been rolled back, I'll send in the troop 
>transports.  Not until then.

Tentative.  Hit them hard with everything.  If the Zho troops are engaged
in combat, suddenly they need help.  You've given the Zho commander a new
headache.  Depending on his ground investment, he may have a few hundred
thousand troops on the ground.  

>You're trying to make me panic.  I won't.  If the Zhodies have scattered a 
>lot of their fleet through my sector then I'll roll them up one at a time 
>with my task forces at no risk to myself.  It'll take a while, but it will
be 
>done.  Zhodane is mostly at tech 14, and tech 14 wallows in the mud against 
>tech 15.  I've tried every possible Zhodie fleet combination against the 
>Spinward Marches fleet that I can think of, pitting 7 AE worlds against what 
>Mora and Trin can build, and his only chance is to stick together.

You are still wedded to the idea that the Zho *wants* a fleet engagement.
You said it yourself: that's suicide.  So he keeps skirmishing.  Letting a
massive fleet be seen in one place, which then jumps to several different
worlds.  You come in and pick off a CruRon or two, but two jumps away,
there is glowing slag where the orbital shipyards used to be.  Look up
Quantril' Raiders, or the Rangers.  A diversified force can rip a superior
force to shreds if they are careful.

Which Roman was it that got ripped to shreds in Germany?

>Instead, I will make the Zhodies panic.  In 500 years the Imperium has never 
>taken offensive action against the Zhodane.  The Imperium has always
reacted, 
>defended, retreated, lost worlds.  I'll make the Zhodies defend and react to 
>me.  I will cut their lines, sit astride their repair facilities, and put 
>capital ships where they have not been for 500 years, forcing the Zhodies to 
>come to me.  Riverland and Cronor used to be Imperial.  I will have them 
>back.  When the Imperial Fleet reinforcements arrive, I just might get them.

Cool.  And in the same time, you have the Zhos coming from everywhere (the
Consulate is much smaller, y'know) and the Zho's destroying the ares you
were supposed to be defending!  If you are lucky, you'll be killed in
battle, and won't be hung for gross incompetence.

Mission is everything.  If you have been attacked, your first duty as an
Imperial officer is to defend the state.  Taking the war to the enemy's
home is a political decision.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"Genetically" we are nearly identical to fruit flies.  On the
other hand, as a species we write better string quartets. 
				- Rich Clancey


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:46:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:46:40 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <63.f7e6699.2a7d4cf9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803123126.44ff6796@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:12 AM 8/3/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>And that will work in my favor, as much of the Spinward Population lives in 
>the highly protected worlds of Trin, Mora, Glisten, Rhylanor, and Palique, 
>and the main fleet is very close by to Rethe, Louzy, Lunion, Jewell, and 
>Vilis.  That's almost half of the Spinward Marches on those planets alone.

My Sword World allies will tie down the Lunion and Glisten fleets.  Vargr
forces will raid the Coreward ends of Regina and Aramis to draw off fleet
elements from those subsectors.  Raiders and deep penetration fleets will
be sent into Regina and Villis for commerce and raiding and hit&run attacks
against starports capable of repairing navy ships.

My main thrust will come at Louzy/Jewell and Grant/Jewell.  Cutting off the
Jewell cluster.  Louzy has no gas giant, and Grant only two, making these
systems easy to hold.

With the door barred, and my penetrators wrecking havoc, I move on the
Jewell cluster itself.  Ruby (1005), Emerald (1006), and Mongo (1204) are
the first targets. All are relatively low tech, and only Mongo has a Naval
base.  From there, I send more forces to Lysen (1307).  Lysen doesn't have
enough people or technology to put up a stiff resitience.  These moves
would be on a timed basis, with fleets moving according to schedule.

Once everyhing was secure, I'd move the bulk of my fleets to Jewell (1106)
along with the invasion force.  Jewell would be a tough nut to crack

(Divergence, I just had the most amazing case of deja-vu.  I clearly
remembered typing that exact sentiece before, on this computer.  Weird)

With you reacting to my previous moves, I have you out of position.  I can
begin the bombardment of targets on the planet with minimal interference.
I would send troops down *as quickly as is possible* because in orbit, they
are targets.  On the ground, they are an asset.  My forces at the other
worlds have couriers stationed with them; ordered to jump out *the moment*
a large Imperial force engages my force.  This will give me at least a
little warning.

Obviously, there are holes in this attack, since I just came up with it.
The biggest hole I see is a fleet coming through the Federation of Arden on
my Rimward flank.  Placing pickets at Zircon (1110), Utoland (1209), Pequan
(1210), and 871-438 (1510) would give me warning, although I am probably
short on ships at this point.  Just have to hope that the raiders and
Swordies are doing their job.

There, a clear plan with goals.  That's what the Imperial player would also
need.  There is never a time when allowing massive friendly civilian
casualties is acceptable.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:47:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:47:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <98.29de0498.2a7d4f0e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803123222.44ff714e@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:21 AM 8/3/2002 EDT, you wrote:
> >You're thniking of everything in terms of a mapboard and counters. I'm
> >discussing warfare.
>
>I'm thinking in terms of what the actually constructed vessels will do 
>according to the rules, yes.  You are thinking in terms of imagining what
you 
>think various effects will be.  I'll take the hardware -- such as it is -- 
>and I'll have the last word.

You are really setting records for honking people off here, you know that?
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:48:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:48:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Ravioli in space (was: Junk in space)
Message-ID: <F114k2H3b98KtdhQYZk00009320@hotmail.com>

From: john.groth@us.army.mil
>From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
>>Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> > On the other hand, a 2 cm chunk of something is going to do more
>> > than leave a dent.
>>
>>Such a chunk probably has a kinetic energy of about 1 MJ at best, and
>>very likely is travelling at substantially less than the speed of
>>sound in starship hull material.
>>
>>I think "make a dent" would be about right.  If one ever hit,
>>which it
>>wouldn't unless the sensors were crippled.
>
>Why am I reminded of the "ravioli railgun" post of several years ago?
>(I'd repost it again, except that it's on one of my computers back
>Stateside....)
>
>IIRC, one of our Scandinavian list members also has it archived.

<puff of smoke>Oh, I have been summoned!


<Start Repost>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 08:31:46 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: HUMOR/Physics; Under enough pressure, ravioli behaves as a gas.

This is humor only people at MIT...or on the Traveller Mailing list...can 
appreciate.  Ravioli rail guns anyone?
While humorous in primary intent, this article also contains important
information about impact effects at vars. speeds...of a can of ravioli.

- ------- Forwarded Message>>To: 0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org
>Subject: Under enough pressure, ravioli behaves as a gas.
>Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 11:43:20 -0500>From: glen mccready <glen@qnx.com>>
[snip forwards]

>>There was still one aspect of the whole concept of a ravioli-loaded
>>railgun type wepon which we, lolling about late on a weeknight, with
>>only a few neurons randomly firing, could not resolve.  Would a chunk
>>of metal (can of ravioli) impacting another, larger, rest mass
>>structure (star destroyer) produce an "explosion" effect, or simply
>>punch an appropriately shaped hole as it passed through?  Bill?>

>What am I, the neighborhood blast physicist???  Well, maybe... :-)
>
>It all depends on speed of impact versus the speed of sound in the target
>(what is called the Mach number, where Mach 1 means the speed of sound,
>Mach 2 is twice the speed of sound, etc), and the speed of the ravioli
>versus the speed of light in the target (which I'll call the Cerenkov
>number, where Cerenkov 1 is the speed of light in anything; Cerenkov 1.3
>is the speed of high-energy protons in a water-cooled reactor (that's why
>you get that nifty blue glow), and you can get up to Cerenkov 2.4 using
>diamonds and nuclear accellerators.  In the late 40's people used to talk
>about Cerenkov numbers, but they don't anymore.  Pity.).  Lastly, there's
>the ravioli velocity expressed as a fraction of the speed of light in a
>vacuum (that is, as a fraction of "c").  "C" velocities are always between
>0 and 1.
>
>At low speeds (REAL low) the ravioli will simply flow over the surface,
>yielding a space-cruiser with a distinctly Italian paint job.>
>Faster (still well below speed-of-sound in the target) the metal of the
>space-cruiser's skin will distort downward, making what we Boston drivers
>call a "small dent".
>
>Faster still, you may have a "big dent" or maybe even a "big dent with a
>hole in the middle", caused by the ravioli having enough energy to push
>the dent through, stretching and thinning the hull metal till the metal
>finally tears in the middle of the dent.
>
>Getting up past Mach 1 (say, 5000 feet/sec for steel), you start to get
>punch-a-hole-shaped-like-the-object effects, because the metal is being
>asked to move faster than the binding forces in the object can propagate
>the "HEY!  MOVE!" information.  (After all, sound is just the binding
>forces between atoms in a material moving the adjacent atoms -- and the
>speed of sound is how fast the message to "move" can propagate.)  From
>this, we see that WileE Coyote often reached far-supersonic speeds because
>he often punched silhouette-type holes in rocks, cliffs, trucks, etc.
>
>Around Mach 4 or so, another phenomenon starts -- compressive heating.
>This is where the leading edge of the ravioli actually starts being heated
>by compression (remember PV=nRT, the ideal gas law?)  Well, ravioli isn't
>a gas, but under enough pressure, ravioli behaves as a gas.  It is
>compressed at the instant of impact and gets hot -- very hot.  Likewise,
>the impact point on the hull is compressed and gets hot.  Both turn to
>gasses -- real gasses, glowing-white-hot gasses.  The gasses expand
>spherically, causing crater-like effects, including a raised rim and a
>basically parabolic shape.  In the center of the crater, some material is
>vaporized, then there's a melt zone, then a larger "bent" zone, and the
>raised rim is caused because the gas expansion bubble center point (the
>bending force) is actually *inside* the hull plate.  If the hull plate
>isn't thick enough, then the gas-expansion bubble pushes through to the
>other side, and you get a structural breach event (technically speaking,
>a "big hole") in the side of the space-cruiser.
>
>Compressive heating really hits the stride up around 20,000 feet/sec (Mach
>4 in steel, Mach 15 in air) and continues as a major factor all the way
>up to the high fractional Cerenkov speeds, where nuclear forces begin to
>take effect.
>
>Aside: the "re-entry friction heating" that spacecraft endure when the
>reenter the atmosphere is NOT friction.  It's really compressive heating
>of the air in the path.  As long as the spacecraft is faster than Mach 1,
>the air can't know to get out of the way, so it bunches up in front of
>the spacecraft.  When you squeeze any gas, it gets hot.  So, the glowing
>"reentry gas" is really just squeezed air, which heats the spacecraft heat
>shield by conduction and infrared.  The hypersonic ravioli can be expected
>to behave similarly.
>
>As we increase speed from the high Mach numbers (about 10 miles/sec) all
>the way up to about 150,000 miles/sec, not much different happens except
>that the amount of kinetic energy (which turns into compressive heat)
>increases.  This is a huge range of velocity, but it's uninteresting
>velocity.
>
>At high fractional Cerenkov speeds, the ravioli is now beginning to travel
>at relativistic velocities.  Among other things, this means that the
>ravioli is aging more slowly than usual, and the ravioli can looks
>compressed in the direction of travel.  But that's really not important
>right now.
>
>As we pass Cerenkov 1.0 in the target, we get a new phenomenon -- Cerenkov
>radiation.  This is that distinctive blue glow seen around water-cooled
>reactors.  It's just (relatively) harmless light (harmless compared to
>the other blast effects, that is).  I mention it only because it's so
>nifty...
>
>At around .9 c (Cerenkov 1.1) , the ravioli starts to perceptibly weigh
>more.  It's just a relativistic mass increase -- all the additional weight
>is actually energy, available to do compressive heating upon impact.  The
>extra weight is converted to heat energy according to the equation E=mc^2;
>it looks like compressive heating but it's not.
>
>[Here's where I'm a little hazy on the numbers; I'm at work and
>don't have time to rederive the Lorentz transformations.]
>
>At around .985 c (Cerenkov 1.2 or so), the ravioli now weighs twice what
>it used to weigh. For a one pound can, that's two pounds... or about sixty
>megatons of excess energy.  All of it turns to heat on impact.  Probably
>very little is left of the space-cruiser.
>
>At around .998 c, the impacting ravioli begins to behave less like ravioli
>and more like an extremely intense radiation beam.  Protons in the water
>of the ravioli begin to successfully penetrate the nuclei of the hull
>metal.  Thermonuclear interactions, such as hydrogen fusion, may take
>place in the tomato sauce.
>
>At around .9998 c, the ravioli radiation beam is still wimpy as far as
>nuclear accellerator energy is concerned, but because there is so much of
>it, we can expect a truly powerful blast of mixed radiation coming out of
>the impact site.  Radiation, not mechanical blast, may become the largest
>hazard to any surviving crew members.
>
>At around .9999999 c, the ravioli radiation may begin to produce
>"interesting" nuclear particles and events (heavy, short-lived particles).
>
>At around .999999999999 c, the ravioli impact site may begin to resemble
>conditions in the original "big bang"; equilibrium between matter and
>energy; free pair production; antimatter and matter coexisting in
>equilibrium with a very intense gamma-ray flux, etc.[1]
>
>Past that, who knows?  It may be possible to generate quantum black holes
>given a sufficiently high velocity can of ravioli.
>
>     --Bill
>
>[1]According to physicist W. Murray, we may also expect raining frogs,
>   plagues of locusts, cats and dogs living together, real Old Testament
>   destruction.  You get the idea...
<end repost>


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:50:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:50:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
In-Reply-To: <20020803190005.10755.54707.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17b4qf-0002Ab-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
 
> While there is likely a connection between PTSD and rapid
> reintegration back into 'normal' life, experts have also linked PSTD
> to the extensive use of operant conditioning of soldiers that occurred
> after WWII.

???  I've never heard of this, who performed this conditioning and 
what were they attempting to do?  I'd be very interested in hearing 
more about this.

-John sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: intrasystem jumps?
Message-ID: <200208031956.g73Jurw06881@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
...
>> and protect shipping between these points.  Convoys may be forced to
>> use jump ships to do intrasystem jumps to avoid raiders,
>
>Not likely, I would think.  That would cripple your economy worse than
>losing 70% of your ships.  You'd be better off escorting them in
>normal space, since non-jump ships are so much cheaper than jump
>capable ones.

  Under G:T? In CT the cost difference isn't all that marked - an
in-system transport designed under HG2 could have J-1 installed
with the tankage demountable. Most dedicated in-system freight
would be normal space (& possibly _very_ slow!), but the wartime
requirement for tonnage might be readied in such auxiliary ships?

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 14:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 13:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <E17arId-0004ch-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <C25B0D56-A71B-11D6-8894-000502884755@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

On Friday, August 2, 2002, at 10:16 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
>
> The fun part will come of someone figures out a moderately easy
> way to get someone into a simulator while making them think they
> are getting into the real thing.  You won't be able to pull that trick
> more than once on someone unless the sims are *really* good
> (and they might be), but it would be an *excellent* test of exactly
> how well a pilot has learned his or her lessons.

The *really* fun part is where some Bad Guy(TM) figures out how to take 
out the safeties, and make a sim that really *can* kill...

> --
Bruce Johnson

Wherever you go, there you are.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 14:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 13:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Blowing holes in Japan (was " Re Patton")
In-Reply-To: <F215m4i0FN8Qnr2Hs3j00000007@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <828EDE16-A71E-11D6-8894-000502884755@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

On Friday, August 2, 2002, at 08:27 PM, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>     The result may have been an Indochina similar to our Central 
> America, rat bastards in charge of corrupt, laughing-stock nations 
> supported by the West solely because they aren't communists.

>     Gee, ain't alternate history fun?

Me thinks back to Suharto, Marcos, Dieu, Kai-shek, whoever it was that 
ruled Korea for so long...I must ask, sir, what's so *alternate* about 
this history you're describing? ;-)

--
Bruce Johnson

Wherever you go, there you are.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 14:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug  3 13:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
In-Reply-To: <E17b4qf-0002Ab-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <B9718B94.67A59%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/3/02 12:44 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:

> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> 
>> While there is likely a connection between PTSD and rapid
>> reintegration back into 'normal' life, experts have also linked PSTD
>> to the extensive use of operant conditioning of soldiers that occurred
>> after WWII.
> 
> ???  I've never heard of this, who performed this conditioning and
> what were they attempting to do?  I'd be very interested in hearing
> more about this.

Operant conditioning was one of the center pieces of the army's new training
methods that were adopted as a results of the work of SLA Marshall.
Marshall reported that only a small fraction of infantryman in combat fired
their weapons.  Even though Marshall's seminal work "Men against fire" has
been called into question, there is little doubt that Marshall's theories
had a great impact on military training.  A classic example of the operant
conditioning that was adopted post WWII is in the case of basic rifle
marksmanship.  Until the 1950, rifle marksmanship consisted of firing at
conventional targets at known distances.  This was changed to firing at
human silhouettes at random ranges in conditioned meant to simulate combat.
Soldiers were 'conditioned' to fire automatically at human silhouette.

The program was successful.  The number of troops firing in combat went from
10-30% to over 90%.  Many psychiatrists and others in the field have
suggested that this operant conditioning may have had deleterious effects in
that it short circuits the natural human reluctance to kill.  There is a
detailed explanation of this theory in Grossman's "On Killing", and it has
received coverage in other works such as "An intimate history of killing"
and "Achilles in Vietnam"

Hope that helps.

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 14:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Sat Aug  3 13:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] PTSD
In-Reply-To: <E17b4qf-0002Ab-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208031349080.22611-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Sat, 3 Aug 2002 sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:

> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
>  
> > While there is likely a connection between PTSD and rapid
> > reintegration back into 'normal' life, experts have also linked PSTD
> > to the extensive use of operant conditioning of soldiers that occurred
> > after WWII.
> 
> ???  I've never heard of this, who performed this conditioning and 
> what were they attempting to do?  I'd be very interested in hearing 
> more about this.

I know very little about this, but recent studies with sexual assault
victims (a lot of PTSD cases in civilian life occur among sexual assault
victims) *have* shown that a lot of the things we used to do to prevent
PTSD don't work and seem to make the problem worse.  For instance,
they found that certain forms of "debriefing" which involved discussing
the incident over and over actually increased the likelihood of
flashbacks.  Apparently this only seems to fix and anchor the memories. 

I don't unfortunately still have the citation, but I read it on
www.medscape.com -- I get the Transplantation update because of my job but
also signed up for the Women's Health and Psychiatry updates because of
my personal health issues.  I know it's out there.

The current trend on PTSD according to a lecture I attended recently is
that there seems to be a window in which symptoms will or won't develop,
and that judicious use of other forms of therapy including drugs to
decrease the nervous system reactivity are more effective than
"debriefing" or operant conditioning.  Apparently one's brain chemistry
becomes much more reactive following a sexual assault or battle experience
or other trauma... and whether or not it stays that way is the deciding
factor for the development of PTSD.

Please remember that these people who used these ineffective treatments
weren't evil or careless; they were doing the best they had with the
information currently available.

Kiri :)

**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shadowcat)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Quote from a Martial Arts Newsgroup[OT]
Message-ID: <3D4BC3F3.19297.767088@localhost>

> Let's have a good old Elisha vs. the prophets of Baal showdown.  
You 
> pray to Allah, I'll pray to General Dynamics. We'll see who bursts 
> into flame first.

This wasnt attributed to source other than the newsgroup it was 
seen in


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for the Atro-genius Types (was: System Gen Help)
In-Reply-To: <c9.261a11c4.2a7d38e2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020803210827.89257.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>

Would it be possible for a planet be captured into an
L4 or L5 point on a Gas Giant?


>  >> I am doing an extended system generation.  I
> rolled
>  >> for #6 to be the max orbit.  I also rolled for 2
>  >> captured planets.  One is in orbit 6.3 and the
> other
>  >> is in 6.0
>  >> 
>  >> Orbit 6 and 5 are both SGG's.  4 is the
> mainworld and
>  >> the habitable zone.
>  >> 
>  >> Is this legitimate?  Or do I need to move the
> captured
>  >> planet in orbit 6.0 to somewhere else.


__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
In-Reply-To: <20020801210703.29080.82373.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentr
 al.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020803221209.00ac8e90@mail.pi.se>

Mr Greenly wrote:

>Would a world that has 80% of its surface covered by water, a dense
>nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, and one moon that is large enough to exert a
>tidal effect tend to be more or less climatically active? Assume
>moderate (terran-normal) vulcanism and a fairly non-polluting early TL
>aqua/agricultural society. Also assume standard polar ice caps and
>rotation around 20 deg. off the plane of the ecliptic. I'll welcome any
>and all comments...

Mr Greenly, I wish to apologize for the late reply.

Let me first say the result would depend on physiography (how do the 
continents look?), and what you mean with climatically active. Often people 
- not that I in any way wish to imply you do so in your question - confuse 
climate with weather. A world can have violent weather but uniform climate.

The second thing is that climate unless you do have a uniform world (like 
Venus) will vary, so what is standard climate is a bit like saying "this is 
a mountain world". Rather Star-Wars generalization. A world humans would 
endure on likely would not be so generic.

Okay, the basic difference is that you have a denser atmosphere and more 
oceanic surface.

This will lead to 1) more water vapor in the atmosphere giving more cloud 
cover. This moderates climate, and it moderates the diurnal differences. 
You may get very impressive storm systems _if_ oceans becomes warm enough 
to set of hurricanes. This is something you wish to check for your tropical 
zones - if the oceans are warmer than 27C you can expect severe storm 
belts. So you would get less climate but more weather.

It will also lead to 2) better heat transfer by oceans and atmosphere, as 
we have more atmosphere and more ocean. This however would depend on 
physiography too - you still have these icecaps, right? When Earth was 
warmer and more humid, there were no ice caps. So I'd guess most of your 
continents are pole-ward. That would lead to great variations near the 
polar ice caps - cold polar air, winds from the glaciers, great seasonal 
effects.

If we assume an Earth-like placement of continents, I'd wager the 
moderation would in general be something like 50% better than on Earth, and 
that would likely prevent ice caps to form on a large scale. In order to 
keep the ice caps, you need to lower temperatures worldwide. If you lower 
temperatures, the atmosphere will hold less water vapor, which means you 
will have less weather but more variable climate. You'd still have oceanic 
moderation and the dense atmosphere, so you would get a world on average 
cooler than Earth with less distinct climate zones.

The denser atmosphere would also influence aeolian erosion. But this is not 
as much a macro-climate issue, though it could be locally important for 
microclimate depending on the geomorphology and vegetation cover you intend 
to have. If you are interested in such ramblings - closer to my field, so 
to say - or want some elaboration or math on the stuff above feel free to 
contact me off-list. I fear I won't read the digests with much attention as 
long as the current post flurry goes on. (To put it diplomatically...)

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <98.29de0498.2a7d4f0e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c23b34$47c49940$a211bd50@martinjd>

> >You're thniking of everything in terms of a mapboard and counters. I'm
>  >discussing warfare.
>
> I'm thinking in terms of what the actually constructed vessels will do
> according to the rules, yes.

My point was always that a realistic game setting - my main concern - is not
the result of your fleet model, which is designed to play a game of High
Guard with. I've tried to show why other ships than dreadnoughts and scouts
or whatnot are necessessary and useful.

.  I'll take the hardware -- such as it is --
> and I'll have the last word.

I don't see what you mean by that comment. If you're claiming to be the High
Guard mastergenius then fine, whatever. You'll win High Guard games and the
Traveller universe will continue to have diverse classes of ships that you
think are pointless. All we've really established is that we have radically
different viewpoints. And I can live with that....



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Pixie Revisited (was: Imperial Taxes)
In-Reply-To: <4957.64.8.3.28.1028349006.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020803211533.94550.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>

--- hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head
> tax" or does it charge

If the Imperium uses a per main-world "head tax" then
that may help explain the Pixie's of the region. 
Convince the Scouts that the main world really is the
low population world, then the per main-world "head
tax" is based on that main world rather than the total
population of the system.

Thoughts?

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: UFO
In-Reply-To: <memo.479640@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020803212000.97843.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Megan Robertson <mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk>
wrote:
> Mexal.
> 
> (43 on Friday... "Second childhood? Heck, I haven't
> done with the first 
> one yet!")


A bout of 24-hour flu prevented me from much posting
or reading yesterday.

So let me wish a somewhat belated HAPPY BIRTHDAY to
you.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:21:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:21:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <3.0.5.16.20020803121034.44ff804c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <002c01c23b35$18ddf4e0$a211bd50@martinjd>

>
> You are still wedded to the idea that the Zho *wants* a fleet engagement.

My point precisely.

> You said it yourself: that's suicide.  So he keeps skirmishing.  Letting a
> massive fleet be seen in one place, which then jumps to several different
> worlds.  You come in and pick off a CruRon or two, but two jumps away,
> there is glowing slag where the orbital shipyards used to be.  Look up
> Quantril' Raiders, or the Rangers.  A diversified force can rip a superior
> force to shreds if they are careful.

Again. This is what I have in mind...




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Firearms in Vacuum
In-Reply-To: <20803.011715.6z8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c23b33$ea8b8c20$0c0a0a0a@glidenet.com>

Actually firearms work BETTER in a vacuum situation provided
that you overcome a few technical details...

expansion, contraction and cracking of materials due to extremes
in temperatures found in stellar environments.

Lubricants boiling away in vacuum, or gumming in near zero
temperatures.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com [mailto:tml-
> admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Leonard Erickson
> Sent: Saturday, 03 August, 2002 05:17
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Firearms in Vacumn
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > Leonard Erickson wrote:
> >>
> >> In mail you write:
> >>
> >> > "Robert Uhl " wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > No, but guns *have* been fired underwater (this is a somewhat
> >> >> > different situation than firing one with a barrel full of
water).
> >> >>
> >> >> Anyone here have any experience doing this?  I know that it's
> supposed
> >> >> to work, but I've never worked up the courage or folly necessary
to
> >> >> play with it.  I've a lot of respect for Things What Go Boom,
and
> I've
> >> >> little desire to annoy them...
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
> >> >> If your franchise is not secured by force of personal arms, you
are
> a
> >> >> subject, not a citizen.                               --H. Beam
> Piper
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> TML mailing list
> >> >> TML@travellercentral.com
> >> >> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> >> >
> >> > I launched a model rocket from underwater after seeing it in "The
> Model
> >> > Roceteer" It was very
> >> > impressive.
> >>
> >> Do you still have any copies of The Model Rocketeer? Mine got lost
a
> >> long time ago :-(
> >
> > I think so, I'll have a look next time I'm cleaning that part of the
> garage.
> > Anything in particular
> > or do you want that article on underwater launches?
> 
> Well, I'd like to have a set of the silly things, or at least a decent
> scan of them.
> 
> --
> Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:23:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:23:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <20020802231503.19852.60096.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com><3D4B3637.35538EB8@mailbag.com> <3.0.5.16.20020803114655.4717ae96@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <003301c23b35$47204d80$a211bd50@martinjd>

> Aieee!!! you said it three times!  At least no one has mentioned Leroy
yet...
> oh, damn.

Oh gods, people.

These things come in threes, right? Clif, Leroy....

And now I've mentioned Leroy twice!

We are doomed. Assemble the Penguins of Apocalypse!


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"
References: <B971637A.67A12%listmom@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <006701c23b36$590b9800$a211bd50@martinjd>

> > The answer? Learn to get along and abolish conflict.
> > Until then, we must accept the paradox and try to do the best we can not
to
> > cause needless suffering. But we will, all the same.

Okay. OBTRAV: I wrote a similar quote in Starmercs.


Or.... imagine how utterly riddled with compromise the 3I must be, trying to
find local get-along solutions to conflicts and issues that just won't go
away. No wonder there are so many nobles and diplomats out there trying to
keep everything down to an acceptable level.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] COTI website
Message-ID: <00af01c23b37$299584e0$a211bd50@martinjd>

Okay. All other stuff stopped as of now.

The reason I mentioned the site was that we've just added more crunchy
Traveller goodness, and maybe some tml members haven't seen it yet. And
we're paying for contributions, albeit not much.


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-to-the-Masses
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Gauss Round Velocity
In-Reply-To: <B96D6322.66F09%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c23b36$2a596690$0c0a0a0a@glidenet.com>

IMTU a gauss weapon barrel is slightly larger than the round itself.
The round floats within the magnetic field inside the barrel,
Thus the barrel does not ware out, only the coils.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com [mailto:tml-
> admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Tod Glenn
> Sent: Wednesday, 31 July, 2002 12:49
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Gauss Round Velocity
> 
> on 7/31/02 2:40 AM, Flykiller@aol.com at Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> 
> >
> > conventional barrels are just a piece of hardened steel, and even
they
> wear
> > out.  if you merely scratch the crown(?) of the barrel it can ruin
> accuracy.
> > I would think a gauss rifle barrel would be a very high-precision
piece
> of
> > electro-mechanical equipment, and that subjecting it to a rapid
series
> of
> > small sonic booms could disturb it a little.
> 
> 
> Certainly, that's possible.  I would expect that gauss rifle barrels
would
> be at least as durable at contemporary firearms.  In a military weapon
> that's typically in excess of 50,000 rounds.  Accuracy is not much of
an
> issue.  The required accuracy of a military weapon is not the same as
a
> target rifle.  The AK series is considered one of the premier military
> small
> arms, yet barely manages 5 MOA accuracy.
> 
> If we accept the gauss weapon as pictured and described on page 101 of
> Fire,
> Fusion and Steel first edition as canon, the barrel of a gauss rifle
is
> really nothing more than an electrical coil.  Certainly a structure
that
> can
> be made robust enough to be imperious to hypersonic shock.  If the
gauss
> rifle is some sort of rail gun weapon, the barrel is even simpler, and
> must
> be sufficiently strong to resist the intense magnetic forces acting to
rip
> the rail apart.  Again, and effect from sonic shockwave are likely to
be
> negligible.
> 
> Bear in mind that the air in the barrel is a gas, and highly
compressable.
> It is also probably at least a thousand times less dense than the
material
> the barrel is composed of.  That is certainly not to say that it will
be
> uneffected, buy any such effect are likely to be so small as to not be
> noteworthy.
> 
> On the other hand, there is not telling what effects the sudden and
> repeated
> surges of high powered magnetic flux will have on the material, or the
> firer
> for that matter.
> 
> --
> When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
> --
> Tod L Glenn
> webmaster@travellercentral.com
> http://www.travellercentral.com
> http://www.spinwardmarches.com
> http://www.solsec.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
Message-ID: <136.11daab1b.2a7daa90@aol.com>

 >Mines, even of a CAPTOR type, don't have much area coverage. You'd need a
 >lot of them to cover an area, though orbits and other choke points are a
 >possibility.

Well, yes, that's the point.

Does Traveller have any rules for mines?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"
In-Reply-To: <11c.14d66d9e.2a7ce27f@aol.com>
References: <11c.14d66d9e.2a7ce27f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <p04330101b972034c1c26@[143.232.119.186]>

At 3:38 AM -0400 8/3/02, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
>  >>>> "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!" >>>
>  >
>  >Under the rules of war, we've been discussing, if an enemy intentionally
>  >builds fortifications or other military structures among a civilian
>  >populance, then that enemy becomes rssponsible for the safety of those
>  >aforementioned civilians. If those civilians are actively and willfully
>  >supporting the enemy, then they are no longer considered noncombatants. So,
>  >it IS Al Quaida's fault and responsibility if the US intentionally seeks to
>  >bomb a legitimate military target that Al Qaida has hidden behind a human
>  >shield.
>
>I rest my case.
>
>"It's Milosivic's fault we bombed a convoy of farmers!"
>"It's Arafat's fault we bombed that apartment building!"
>"It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a convoy of inauguration representatives on
>the open road!"
>
>If I were to act with this level of disregard even in defense of my own
>children, I'd be in jail.  McVeigh was right -- "collateral damage" covers a
>multitude of sins.

Ironically, it is this attitude that, in fact, means that you will 
have _more_ civilian casualties.  It means that one side can put 
targets in the middle of civilians and be rewarded by their being 
protected or by their gaining condemnation of the other side.  This 
will only mean they will do it even more.  (Which, in fact, is what 
we see, the less moral are in fact doing just that).

If you really care about civilian casualties, you would join in say 
that that the world sould put pressure on those that deliberately 
court such deaths, those that use civilians as human shields....
-- 
_______________________________________________________________
David P. Summers, SETI Institute
Mail Stop 239-4
NASA Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000

650-604-6206
dsummers@mail.arc.nasa.gov

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <003301c23b35$47204d80$a211bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHGEECIKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

:
:

We are doomed. Assemble the Penguins of Apocalypse!

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

And us with a snowball's chance
 
jml
why penguins
I mean, take Howard Stern, he looks
and acts a lot more alien

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:12:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:12:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes
In-Reply-To: <4957.64.8.3.28.1028349006.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <4957.64.8.3.28.1028349006.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <p04330102b972055d98f1@[143.232.119.186]>

At 12:30 AM -0400 8/3/02, hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>Hello Folks,
>   Just a question of sorts...
>
>In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head tax" or does it charge
>an income tax on its citizens for its Imperial Budget requirements?  In
>short, if the Imperial government taxes 10% of a Gross Planetary Product,
>then it would in essence be an income tax.  If it charges a flat 500 CR
>per person on a planet, then it is a head tax.  Which is it?
>
>And I find it an interesting thought here.  If the Imperium charges say,
>3% of a planet's gross planetary product for its military taxes - this tax
>is on top of the local ruler's/government's tax.  How much in the way of
>taxes can a population take before its economy begins to stagnate?

My impression is that imperial taxes are very indirect (they collect 
money from the member states.  The only direct taxes are the fees 
they collect at starports?
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
Message-ID: <133.124edb2b.2a7daff5@aol.com>

 >> What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other 
 >> sensor systems 
 >> you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?
 >
 >I recommend you read Bruce Alan Macintosh's Definitive Sensor Rules for 
 >T4/FF&S2 for a complete discussion of sensors.  Passive sensors IRL 
 >would have ranges in space significanly better than those of active 
 >sensors such as radar.
 >
 >http://traveller.mu.org/house/sensor.rules.html

Great site, thanks.  But using this it looks like mines are right out.  I 
wish it were so easy to detect incoming asteroids and meteors in RL.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:26:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:26:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: troll optimization on the TML
Message-ID: <1aa.6256260.2a7db26e@aol.com>

 >> Mex, you need to have Fly run around the parade ground until 
 >> you get tired...
 >
 >Now THERE's a Good Idea :-)
 >
 >"Flykiller, front and centre!"

Ma'am, yes ma'am!  (thud thud thud thud)  Ma'am, Sgt. Flykiller reporting as 
ordered, ma'am!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:27:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:27:24 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was  COTI website)
In-Reply-To: <00af01c23b37$299584e0$a211bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <20020803222559.7D7BC2793F@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/03/02 at 10:45 PM,  "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
said:

>Okay. All other stuff stopped as of now.

>The reason I mentioned the site was that we've just added more
>crunchy Traveller goodness, and maybe some tml members haven't seen
>it yet. And we're paying for contributions, albeit not much.

Martin, Loren, Hunter, and all others involved in producing Traveller
oriented stuff,

IMO, I don't mind occasional reminders of "what you've got" and where
it is, I don't mind announcements when you've got something new and
exciting, I don't mind you asking us for our input on things, and I
don't mind you giving us your input on things. In fact, I appreciate
it, and hope you kept it up!  Now, if you started posting
advertisements every day and twice on Sundays, then that would be too
much, but none of you are, or are likely to start, doing that. 

So, to those that think Martan, Loren, et al are "spamming" this group
I politely offer the suggestion..."Go suck eggs!"  

And to the subjects of this post, I say, "Thank you for the work and
keeping us informed, and keep doing both!"

Eris,
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:29:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:29:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Gauss Round Velocity
In-Reply-To: <000c01c23b36$2a596690$0c0a0a0a@glidenet.com>
Message-ID: <B971A6EB.67A9C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/3/02 2:38 PM, Shawn R Sears at ShawnSears@telocity.com wrote:

> IMTU a gauss weapon barrel is slightly larger than the round itself.
> The round floats within the magnetic field inside the barrel,
> Thus the barrel does not ware out, only the coils.
> 

Just out of curiosity, why do the coils wear out?  There's no contact with
the projectile, just current generating a magnetic field, right?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] PTSD
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208031349080.22611-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208031349080.22611-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <m3ado3d16n.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Azalais Malfoy <tiamat@tsoft.com> writes:
>
> For instance, they found that certain forms of "debriefing" which
> involved discussing the incident over and over actually increased
> the likelihood of flashbacks.  Apparently this only seems to fix and
> anchor the memories.

That's what I've been saying for years: going on about a problem only
worsens it, like picking at a scab.  Better not to dwell on it, I'd
think, otherwise as you point out it becomes fixed in one's mind.

> The current trend on PTSD according to a lecture I attended recently
> is that there seems to be a window in which symptoms will or won't
> develop, and that judicious use of other forms of therapy including
> drugs to decrease the nervous system reactivity are more effective
> than "debriefing" or operant conditioning.  Apparently one's brain
> chemistry becomes much more reactive following a sexual assault or
> battle experience or other trauma... and whether or not it stays
> that way is the deciding factor for the development of PTSD.

So having a few drinks might help?  How amusing:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I'm reminded of the day my daughter came in, looked over my shoulder at
some Perl 4 code and said, `What is that, swearing?'       --Larry Wall

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:35:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:35:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <73.238e61b4.2a7db467@aol.com>

 >On the flip side, two of my friends (female friends) are more determined and
 >in absolute terms more capable than half the men in our martial arts class.
 >They're better than many who hold higher grades. They'd be barred under your
 >rules.

Fully capable men 40 years of age are also barred from enlistment.  There's a 
reason.

 >>that's not damning women, and that's not prejudice.
 >
 >Deciding the fate of half the human race - pre-judging their capabilities -
 >becuase of gender. Nah, that's notuing like prejudice.

Their fate?  I really don't think so.

 >Of course, the poor dears can't be expected to understand politics, manage
 >an estate or run a business either. Any you know? they couldn't do it. Not
 >until someone let them try.

They are trying it.  And it's causing far more damage than good.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:36:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:36:30 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEKPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEKPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <p04330103b9720a71cb73@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:47 PM -0700 8/2/02, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>  >From: "Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com>
>>Subject: [TML] re: Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
>traveller)
>>
>>With "freezer pop" soldiers, you might have people who wake
>>up, fight to the death for a week, then go back to sleep
>>until the next fight to the death crops up. No down time,
>>no ability to process what happened before it all starts
>>again.  Imagine the post-war condition of the average US
>
>For this reason, I doubt that the Imperial and Solomani militaries rely
>heavily on low berth for troop transportation.  The Zhodani may have an edge
>with better capabilities in psychology.
>
>>Forever War was a helluva book, btw.
>
>Agreed!


It seemed a good deal.  You aren't first into battle (you aren't any 
more likely to get killed since the unfrozen guys get killed first) 
and you don't have to deal with boredom between battles.  Odds are 
you sign up, get frozen, and wake up with all your pay waiting for 
you.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
Message-ID: <memo.581428@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <m3u1mbdi0l.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
> > Mind you, I was using an umbrella to crawl behind.  They couldn't
> > spot me visually, either.  I took a page from German tactics in
> > camouflage.
> 
> Oh, so you _weren't_ wearing a bright blue coat and bright red pants?
> However did you retain your lan?

I did on one occasion manage to hide in the middle of a clearing wearing a 
set of bright blue coveralls.

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:48:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:48:57 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
Message-ID: <memo.581429@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <200208031245370897.51623A1B@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
> BTW, if anyone is attending GenCon this year, be sure to stop by the 
> QLI booth (#841). Marc will be there as our guest and we'll have copies 
> of T20 Lite fresh off the presses!

Any plans for a presence at Gen Con UK?

Apart from the T20 lite scenario I'm writing, that is (characters 
courtesy of Mark Urbin). And our friends at BITS...

Oh, and you may have the scenario after Gen Con UK for the website.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.

PS. Hunter, did you get the e-mail I sent you?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Junk in space
In-Reply-To: <3865583847de.3847de386558@us.army.mil>
References: <3865583847de.3847de386558@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <20020804085749.A21861@freeman.little-possums.net>

john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:
> Why am I reminded of the "ravioli railgun" post of several years ago?  
[...]
> IIRC, one of our Scandinavian list members also has it archived.

Yes, I've got that one archived too. :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Off I go
Message-ID: <F253RGE9fkM0PhDK4TI00026147@hotmail.com>

I've sent an unsub request to the listmom, I should
be gone for a week.  If someone has an email for me,
it should make it to this email account, at least
until it fills with spam.  Much as I hate to walk out
in the middle of such interesting discussions, it is
family vacation time!

My sister's marriage to one of Uncle Sam's Misguided
Children has made the beachfront cabins of Camp Lejeaune
available to me and mine, so I hope in a day or two to
have my little ones playing in the water at a beach in
the Carolinas while I watch amphibious assault exercises
through my binoculars.  My brother-in-law has been a long
time away on the Tarawa, so my sister and her kids are
looking forward to some family company.

With any luck, a day trip to the USS North Carolina
will round out the visit.  I've been really looking
forward to it.

Leroy, Cliff, and now Flykiller...this list never
ceases to entertain!  :-)

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:00:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:00:04 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
Message-ID: <168.1196d69b.2a7dba32@aol.com>

 >>  >Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
 >>  >big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.
 >> 
 >> What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other sensor 
systems 
 >> you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?
 >
 >Well, the problem is that even if you have literally thousands of
 >them, the nearest one will likely pass tens of thousands of kilometres
 >from the target.  So they need pretty good sensors, which means
 >significant cost and size.
 > ....
 >Worse still, we're talking about insystem relative speeds which are
 >often on the order of megametres per second.  In a typical Traveller
 >space combat sequence, the ship gets a million kilometres away during
 >the combat round in which it is detected.

I was envisioning them as being simply chemical missiles.  In orbit around a 
gas giant would be a good place.  The ships have to go there, they can't go 
all that fast while scooping, and there is a horizon beyond which they'll 
have trouble seeing (if they can see through a horizon at all).  They 
shouldn't need tremendous sensors for such a location.  Or maybe they could 
be floating just below the surface of the water in a system with only water 
fuel available.  They wouldn't have to sense much, just a big thing blocking 
out the sun or maybe a large magnetic disturbance, and their target would 
hardly be moving.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <B97163D2.67A14%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <fc.1bc430d6.2a7d06b7@aol.com> <B97163D2.67A14%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020804090304.B21861@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> Nothing says that mines need to be static, waiting for something to hit
> them.  A mine could be nothing more than a large missile with high
> acceleration and short range waiting for some ship to come into range.

In fact, it pretty much *has* to be a missile.  Quite a lot bigger,
because it needs its own sensor array, more endurance than a normal
missile, and better defences.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: intrasystem jumps?
In-Reply-To: <200208031956.g73Jurw06881@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
References: <200208031956.g73Jurw06881@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <20020804090450.C21861@freeman.little-possums.net>

Steven Hudson wrote:

> From: Timothy Little
> > You'd be better off escorting them in normal space, since non-jump
> >ships are so much cheaper than jump capable ones.
 
>   Under G:T?

Yes.  That's the only version of Traveller I have now.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: UFO
Message-ID: <memo.581874@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <20020803212000.97843.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
> > Mexal.
> > 
> > (43 on Friday... "Second childhood? Heck, I haven't
> > done with the first 
> > one yet!")
> 
> 
> A bout of 24-hour flu prevented me from much posting
> or reading yesterday.
> 
> So let me wish a somewhat belated HAPPY BIRTHDAY to
> you.

Why, thank you kind sir. Hope you are feeling better now.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:10:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:10:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: troll optimization on the TML
Message-ID: <memo.581875@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <1aa.6256260.2a7db26e@aol.com>
>  >"Flykiller, front and centre!"
> 
> Ma'am, yes ma'am!  (thud thud thud thud)  Ma'am, Sgt. Flykiller 
> reporting as ordered, ma'am!

"Don't call me Ma'am, I work for a living!"

[And there we'd better leave it, as drilling you is not really very 
Traveller-related!]

Hugs and kisses,

Sergeant Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Bryn=20Monnery?=)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Gauss Round Velocity
Message-ID: <20020803231411.23203.qmail@web13903.mail.yahoo.com>

>>The gauss rifle fires 4 mm, 4 gram needles
(silently) at 1500 m/s, with a Striker/MegaTraveller
penetration of 7 out 
to 600 m and 4 dice of damage (and 3 attacks if you
fire a 10-round 
burst):<<

1,500mps is believable, the highest MV for a real
service weapon I know of is the M-16 firing 5.56mm US
(not 5.56mm NATO) which was a 3.56g round going
1050mps.

However, throwing 4g that fast? That's an ME of
4,500j, sufficient to penetrate 22mm of armour steel
at close range, recoil is less than an SLR though
(only 6 ms-1kg-1).

4,500mps is ridiculous though, twice the muzzle energy
of a .50 Cal, penetrating 68mm of armour steel. 

Bryn


=====
"I knew it on the roof that night. We were brothers, Roy Batty and I! Combat models of the highest order. We had fought in wars not yet dreamed of... in vast nightmares still unnamed. We were the new people... Roy and me and Rachael! We were made for this world. It was ours!"

- Final Line of Blade Runner: Original Preview Cut

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you'll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <168.1196d69b.2a7dba32@aol.com>
References: <168.1196d69b.2a7dba32@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020804093340.D21861@freeman.little-possums.net>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> I was envisioning them as being simply chemical missiles.  In orbit
> around a gas giant would be a good place.

Except for one thing: it's wartime.  The defenders have been there
first with their own sensor platforms and semi-autonomous missiles,
less expensive per unit than yours for the same capability.  Probably
also a few large system monitors and at least a few dozen SDBs.
Furthermore, your launches are detected and tracked automatically and
your mines will be shot before emplacing themselves.

We are talking about a system with an annual economy of around 10 TCr,
remember.  They can afford to spend 10 GCr per year on gas-giant
defence even in peacetime, let alone war.


>  The ships have to go there,

No.  Local traffic refuels at their starports, which are in turn
refuelled from any of thousands of locations, almost certainly
including the very well-defended surface of the mainworld.  Hydrogen
is *not* a scarce resource by any stretch of the imagination.

*You* are far more likely to need to go to the gas giant than the
defenders are, since you don't have the luxury of hanging around to
exploit other sources.  Mining and patrolling the gas giant makes
perfect sense for the defenders.  It makes no sense for you.


>  Or maybe they could be floating just below the surface of the water
> in a system with only water fuel available.They wouldn't have to
> sense much, just a big thing blocking out the sun or maybe a large
> magnetic disturbance, and their target would hardly be moving.

"Big thing blocking out the sun"!?

Do you have any idea how *huge* a planet is?  Earth's oceans cover
more than three hundred million square kilometres.  Even if the ships
coming in to refuel were absolutely blind and picked their refuelling
locations completely at random, and were a hundred metres in diameter,
any given mine would have a one in a hundred billion chance of having
a ship "block out the sun".  Can you drop even one *million* mines?

I think you need to run the numbers a bit.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:37:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:37:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes
References: <memo.572871@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <000301c23b46$ef5882e0$2a74fea9@imogen>

Mexal wrote:
> IMTU, the Imperium taxes its member planets. How that planet
> chooses to raise the money to meet the Imperial tax bill is up
> to them.
> 
> Most just hike their own income tax a fraction of a percent. 
> 
> Some, especially those who are lukewarm about their membership,
> charge a separate 'Imperial Tax' to make the point that people
> are being charged for the privilege.
> 
> Some levy the tax on what they perceive as being the benefits
> of belonging to the Imperium, such as interstellar trade.

This is similar to how I treat taxes IMTU also.  (Actually,  'cos
most of my campaigns have the PCs still in active service its not
usually a feature,  however  ...)  I  also  tend  to  relate  tax
complexity to society's age (look at population, law  level,  and
government type for implied  indicators).  Young  societies  will
only have a few key taxes (whether poll tax, income tax, or sales
tax, maybe a couple of them).  But as societies age more and more
taxes are added.  Older societies have complex  tax  systems  ...
including needing permits (with fees) for just about  everything.
Poll tax, income tax, sales tax, business tax, air/raft  tax,  TV
ownership tax, visitor's tax, residency  tax,  fuel  tax,  excess
size on public transport tax, driving  in  congested  areas  tax,
driving on fast road tax, inheritance tax, internet  data  volume
tax, pet ownership tax, book tax, fast food litter  tax,  capital
gains tax, import tax, export tax, customs duty tax, labour union
membership tax, recreational drug tax (alcohol, tobacco,  other),
education tax, stock market tax, cargo broker  tax,  travel  tax,
hospital tax, legal tax, gun ownership tax, ammunition tax, sword
ownership tax, radio  broadcast  tax,  cellphone  tax,  unmuzzled
Vargr tax, consumption of meat tax, marriage tax, pregnancy  tax,
temple tax, etc, etc, etc ...

At some point tax ceases to be about raising funds and becomes an
instrument  for  social  engineering.  So   a   government   with
separatist leanings on a  world  with  an  "Imperial  Tax"  might
increase it higher than the world's actual Imperial contribution.

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prejudice (OT)
Message-ID: <55.2b3ad1ac.2a7dc32f@aol.com>

 >> There is no right to be in the military.
 >
 >Okay. "I believe that people have the basic right to self-determination. If
 >the military exists and some people want to be in it, they have the right to
 >try to meet its absolute standards and if they do, to be accepted. IE the
 >right not to be debarred from service on the grounds of a generalization."
 >
 >Is that better?

It's a restatement of the same thing.  No, I subscribe completely to the 
concept of "the needs of the service".  The service collects volunteers it 
finds acceptable, or drafts those it requires.  It just as easily dismisses 
anyone it thinks it doesn't need.  It sets its standards because it knows 
(hopefully) what needs to be done and how to do it.  It is not a business 
opportunity, or a club, or a government social agency.  It is a serious 
organization with a difficult job, and there is no right to its membership.

The military rejects enlistment of those 32 and older (if I recall 
correctly), because of the problems it would encounter if it did accept such 
enlistments.  This sweeping generalization rejects over half of our 
population out of hand, even though some could do the job, but the 
generalization is accepted because the generalization is valid.  Do you think 
it's valid?  I do.  I think that similar evidence exists for a similar 
sweeping generalization of female enlistment as well.  Some people find this 
offensive, but the facts remain, and only political pressures keep them from 
being responded to.  I am putting the needs of the service first.  Others 
have other priorities.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:41:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:41:06 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
References: <168.1196d69b.2a7dba32@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00d301c23b48$adaa52e0$a211bd50@martinjd>

>
> I was envisioning them as being simply chemical missiles.  In orbit around
a
> gas giant would be a good place.  The ships have to go there, they can't
go
> all that fast while scooping, and there is a horizon beyond which they'll
> have trouble seeing (if they can see through a horizon at all).  They
> shouldn't need tremendous sensors for such a location.  Or maybe they
could
> be floating just below the surface of the water in a system with only
water
> fuel available.  They wouldn't have to sense much, just a big thing
blocking
> out the sun or maybe a large magnetic disturbance, and their target would
> hardly be moving.

This type of cheap CAPTOR type mine isn't much good against a serisou
warship, but as a deterrent to small vessels or merchant-based corsairs it,
an option (IMO). No good in deep space but seeded at a choke point like
optimium skimming level they might be dense enough to be useful.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:43:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:43:11 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
References: <memo.581429@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <00e701c23b48$fd6a9560$a211bd50@martinjd>

> 
> Oh, and you may have the scenario after Gen Con UK for the website.
> 

You're a sweetie.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:45:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:45:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Declarations of War
References: <19b.65b1e1c.2a7d49d4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4C1847.3361F3DE@mindspring.com>

DN: What is the status of his fleet at Cipango and Cronor?  If he has that much out in my areas,
then his central fleet is weakened.  If I can put two task  forces each on Cipango and maybe Ninjar
then _his_ logistics train will be cut entirely, and they'll provide a welcoming committee to any
Zhodie ships that straggle back home looking for support.  Further I'll send the fleet raider task
force to shoot up whatever they can in other worlds in that area. Two can play this game, only I'll
do it with concentrated task forces. Let the consule at Cronor yell at _his_ commander:  "There are
a thousand frigates at Querion!  Do something!"
I'll leave Jewell exposed and do that.  Then I'll send out some of my task forces individually to
locate and mop up these isolated forces, using an extensive scout network to relay information on
their activities and ship counts.  I'll plot their courses and attempt to determine where they want
to go.  Not that this would be hard to guess anyway -- I'm sure the Zhodies will bypass Pscias and
go for Rethe if they can.
 
A: Zho fleet elements will strike at weak targets on the border, but you won't know if they retired
afterward or are advancing.
 
DN: Assume they're advancing.
 
A: Your intelligence will be a mess of vessel reports,
 
DN: This can be sorted out.  It may take a few hours, but I'm sure my staff is efficient.( A flurry
of coughing breaks out) and while the attacks on minor worlds are trivial from a military
standpoint, those are imperial citizens being shot up. Yes, they will have to wait. Soon it will be
the Zhodies turn to be shot up.
 
A: Some border  worlds will be assaulted by ground forces and placed under occupation. The subsector
dukes will want those worlds retaken. They'll want the raids stopped.
 
DN: Everything in due time.  The Dukes will have to be big boys.  And likely they are.  When the
Zhodie fleet has been rolled back, I'll send in the troop transports.  Not until then. You're trying
to make me panic.  I won't. If the Zhodies have scattered a lot of their fleet through my sector
then I'll roll them up one at a time with my task forces at no risk to myself. It'll take a while,
but it will be done.  Zhodane is mostly at tech 14, and tech 14 wallows in the mud against tech 15.
I've tried every possible Zhodie fleet combination against the Spinward Marches fleet that I can
think of, pitting 7 AE worlds against what Mora and Trin can build, and his only chance is to stick
together. Instead, I will make the Zhodies panic. In 500 years the Imperium has never taken
offensive action against the Zhodane. The Imperium has always reacted, defended, retreated, lost
worlds. I'll make the Zhodies defend and react to me.  I will cut their lines, sit astride their
repair facilities, and put capital ships where they have not been for 500 years, forcing the Zhodies
to
come to me. Riverland and Cronor used to be Imperial. I will have them back. When the Imperial Fleet
reinforcements arrive, I just might get them.


-From a briefing on a proposed Zhodani campaign to the admirals of the Imperial fleets of the Domain
of Deneb aboard the newly commissioned 'Duke of Deneb' 188-1118.
* A autotranscriber malfunction rendered the Archdukes colloquial 'Joies" into 'Zhodies'

IMMTU ;)
Thanks everyone!
-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:47:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:47:12 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was  COTI website)
References: <20020803222559.7D7BC2793F@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00fa01c23b49$63e1f7c0$a211bd50@martinjd>

> 
> So, to those that think Martan, Loren, et al are "spamming" this group
> I politely offer the suggestion..."Go suck eggs!"  

Heh. If you can't announce trav content on the trav website, what's it for?

That said, the "spam" reference was, I belive, tongue in cheek.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:49:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:49:23 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
References: <136.11daab1b.2a7daa90@aol.com>
Message-ID: <010901c23b49$c1301380$a211bd50@martinjd>

> >Mines, even of a CAPTOR type, don't have much area coverage. You'd need a
>  >lot of them to cover an area, though orbits and other choke points are a
>  >possibility.
>
> Well, yes, that's the point.
>
> Does Traveller have any rules for mines?
>

Now there's an idea for a Traveller's Aide... Mines, Missiles and Drones.
Anyone think they can get 15,000 words and a few T20 ship/item designs out
of the topic?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:51:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:51:08 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <200207300931.43410.red@archonet.com>
References: <a1.2b0beec6.2a7744c0@aol.com>
 <m3n0savvj9.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> <200207300931.43410.red@archonet.com>
Message-ID: <p04330105b9721bbfdb97@[143.232.119.186]>

One thing to remember is that there is a psychological difference 
between having to take direct action that will result in your death 
and doing something this is likely to get you killed.  That last bit 
of hope makes a big difference.  I was at the Texas Air Museum (is 
that what it was called?) and they had one of the buzz bombs the 
Germans were rigging to be piloted.  While it was recognized that the 
mission was likely to be suicidal (the pilots signed a form stating 
they knew that) they did give them parachutes so that they could at 
least _try_ and get out.  (though at dive speeds of 500 mph that 
wasn't considered likely....)
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:54:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:54:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Declarations of War
In-Reply-To: <3D4C1847.3361F3DE@mindspring.com>
References: <19b.65b1e1c.2a7d49d4@aol.com> <3D4C1847.3361F3DE@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m31y9fcxd9.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

I'm afraid that your post was well-nigh unreadable, as it was not
wrapped at 80 chars...

72 is even better: it allows folks who do not re-flow text to quote it
without running over.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The pistol is not a weapon; it is an impertinence.  If two men are to
kill one another, they should do so face-to-face, not from a distance,
like vile highwaymen.      --Arturo Perez-Reverte, The Fencing Master

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] prejudice (OT)
Message-ID: <15f.11b58134.2a7dc76b@aol.com>

 >I notice that you're "done here" about the fleet thing. From where I'm
 >sitting, that seems to mean you've dismissed all the arguments I raised and
 >decided that you don't need to think about them. You still haven't
 >adequately explained what you mean to do about an enemy that won't give you
 >that pre-arranged setpiece. Or in any other "real war" situation either.

I think your notion of "real war" and mine are different.  I've explained 
mine over and over again as adequately as I could, and I've tried to respond 
to yours, but I don't feel we're connecting, and I don't feel like my view of 
it is being addressed.  Your stuff was all good, and I didn't dismiss 
anything, but going on 0300 or so I just felt like I was beginning to repeat 
myself, and I'm losing sleep trying to keep up with this mailing list because 
it takes me so long to think and reply.  I think the only way to actually 
address the issues we both brought up is not by talking but by an actual 
campaign game, complete with full background, to see who has it right.  I 
think I'm right, but heck, I'm a virgin, I've never played, so I don't 
actually know.  I'd love to run a game, but I don't see how we could.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 18:09:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 17:09:37 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
References: <15f.11b58134.2a7dc76b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000601c23b4c$a7ca4700$bc0cbd50@martinjd>

I think the only way to actually
> address the issues we both brought up is not by talking but by an actual
> campaign game, complete with full background, to see who has it right.

I think this is the only way - a campaign game, with political rules and
such like. It'd be more simulation than game, but what an interesting
exercise!

Meantime, as we've already agreed, we're coming from such wildly different
points of view that there's no point in further argument... but for the
record, I think you *would* beat me in a HG game, because your viewpoint is
(IMO) more aimed at operating within the game parameters, and your designs
better optimised for that.

But anyway... let's put this interesting debate to bed...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 18:11:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 17:11:13 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Military Psychology
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEKPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <p04330103b9720a71cb73@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <3D4C70A1.852C61C@mindspring.com>

"David P. Summers" wrote:
> 
> At 9:47 PM -0700 8/2/02, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> >  >From: "Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com>
> >
> >>With "freezer pop" soldiers, you might have people who wake
> >>up, fight to the death for a week, then go back to sleep
> >>until the next fight to the death crops up. No down time,
> >>no ability to process what happened before it all starts
> >>again.  Imagine the post-war condition of the average US
> >
> >For this reason, I doubt that the Imperial and Solomani militaries rely
> >heavily on low berth for troop transportation.  The Zhodani may have an edge
> >with better capabilities in psychology.

> It seemed a good deal.  You aren't first into battle (you aren't any
> more likely to get killed since the unfrozen guys get killed first)
> and you don't have to deal with boredom between battles.  Odds are
> you sign up, get frozen, and wake up with all your pay waiting for
> you.
> --IMMTU the frozen watch are a volonteer career force . They are wakened as needed and also every four years for additional training and acclimatization(R&R) if not woken earlier. They receive full pay, and must serve 60 years with wakened time counting double for time in service.



-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 18:21:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 17:21:12 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
In-Reply-To: <memo.581429@cix.compulink.co.uk>
References: <memo.581429@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <200208032020140469.53026F37@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 8/3/2002 at 11:47 PM mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:

>In-Reply-To: <200208031245370897.51623A1B@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
>> BTW, if anyone is attending GenCon this year, be sure to stop by the 
>> QLI booth (#841). Marc will be there as our guest and we'll have copies 
>> of T20 Lite fresh off the presses!
>
>Any plans for a presence at Gen Con UK?
>
>Apart from the T20 lite scenario I'm writing, that is (characters 
>courtesy of Mark Urbin). And our friends at BITS...

Woohoo! No official plans for this year, but next year we will arrange a=
 booth. In the meantime, would copies of T20 Lite to hand out help? I think=
 we have enough time that I might be able to ship some to you after I get=
 back from GenCon here.

>Oh, and you may have the scenario after Gen Con UK for the website.

Thanks!

>PS. Hunter, did you get the e-mail I sent you?

I just went and looked at it after you mentioned it, I must have missed it=
 previously. I sometimes miss them if they come to the email address I use=
 for the TML because they get mixed in with all of the other posts. I do=
 apologize! A reply is on its way.

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 18:30:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Aug  3 17:30:13 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
Message-ID: <F22igG68YuXKL951y1M0002578e@hotmail.com>

From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com>

     "I think he is just trying to draw attention to the new Traveller 
webzine we have opened, rather than anything specific."


Mr. Gordon,

     Why, that is splendid news, sir!  I wish you every success with the new 
webzine.  "More" definitely IS "merrier"!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 18:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Aug  3 17:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] COTI website
Message-ID: <F206YSDMyZFlAWAaPJb00000025@hotmail.com>

From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>

     "The reason I mentioned the site was that we've just added more crunchy 
Traveller goodness, and maybe some tml members haven't seen it yet."


Mr. Dougherty,

     I hadn't and thanks for the heads up!  Mr. Gordon already posted the 
great news about the launch of your webzine.  "More" definitely IS 
"merrier"!
     Thanks again.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 18:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 17:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
Message-ID: <memo.582869@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <200208032020140469.53026F37@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
> Woohoo! No official plans for this year, but next year we will arrange 
> a booth. In the meantime, would copies of T20 Lite to hand out help? I 
> think we have enough time that I might be able to ship some to you 
> after I get back from GenCon here.

It would be good to have you if you can make it. I'll keep you posted on 
dates/locations for next year as soon as WE know :-)

> >Oh, and you may have the scenario after Gen Con UK for the website.
> 
> Thanks!

My pleasure.

> >PS. Hunter, did you get the e-mail I sent you?
> 
> I just went and looked at it after you mentioned it, I must have missed 
> it previously. I sometimes miss them if they come to the email address 
> I use for the TML because they get mixed in with all of the other 
> posts. I do apologize! A reply is on its way.

Reply received & responded to. Sorry, only e-mail I had for you. T'other 
one now safely tucked away for future correspondence.

Oh yes, copies of T20 Lite would be handy. I'll e-mail a postal address 
for you.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 18:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug  3 17:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Gauss Round Velocity
In-Reply-To: <20020803231411.23203.qmail@web13903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B971C9C6.67B02%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/3/02 4:14 PM, Bryn Monnery at littlegreenmen.geo@yahoo.com wrote:

> 
> 1,500mps is believable, the highest MV for a real
> service weapon I know of is the M-16 firing 5.56mm US
> (not 5.56mm NATO) which was a 3.56g round going
> 1050mps.

And the SPIW built by AAI was capable of firing flechettes at around 1500
m/s back in the 1960s.  Also, Hughes managed to get a modified M-16 to fire
at almost double the velocity of a standard round as part of their CAP
project in the mid 1980s.
> 
> However, throwing 4g that fast? That's an ME of
> 4,500j, sufficient to penetrate 22mm of armour steel
> at close range, recoil is less than an SLR though
> (only 6 ms-1kg-1).
> 
> 4,500mps is ridiculous though, twice the muzzle energy
> of a .50 Cal, penetrating 68mm of armour steel.
> 
> Bryn

Not so remarkable when one looks at the performance of current railguns.  We
are speaking of TL12 technology, after all.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 19:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 18:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
In-Reply-To: <memo.582869@cix.compulink.co.uk>
References: <memo.582869@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <200208032111180685.533130CF@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 8/4/2002 at 1:43 AM mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:

>In-Reply-To: <200208032020140469.53026F37@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
>> Woohoo! No official plans for this year, but next year we will arrange 
>> a booth. In the meantime, would copies of T20 Lite to hand out help? I 
>> think we have enough time that I might be able to ship some to you 
>> after I get back from GenCon here.
>
>It would be good to have you if you can make it. I'll keep you posted on 
>dates/locations for next year as soon as WE know :-)

I'm not sure if I can make it, but I would love to and will try like hell!=
 If I can't however, Martin can.

Hunter


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 19:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 18:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Gauss Round Velocity
Message-ID: <200208040113.LZX01145@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>Not so remarkable when one looks at the performance of 
>current railguns.  We are speaking of TL12 technology, after 
>all.

That, and today it's not the size of the rails that are the 
problem (or even the wear and tear).  It's the power 
conditioning equipment.  They're already making progress 
enough to replace the aircraft carrier catapult with a 
railgun.  The power conditioning equipment is already orders 
of magnitude smaller than 10 years ago.  By the time we reach 
TL12...
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 19:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Sat Aug  3 18:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Paging Martin Dougherty
In-Reply-To: <00fa01c23b49$63e1f7c0$a211bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <20020804013343.15643.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>

Martin,

I hadn't heard from you, and was wondering if you got
the info you had asked for.

Let me know, I can send it again if you haven't gotten
it yet.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 19:35:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug  3 18:35:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Gauss Round Velocity
In-Reply-To: <200208040113.LZX01145@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B971D2B3.67B15%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/3/02 6:13 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> That, and today it's not the size of the rails that are the
> problem (or even the wear and tear).  It's the power
> conditioning equipment.  They're already making progress
> enough to replace the aircraft carrier catapult with a
> railgun.  The power conditioning equipment is already orders
> of magnitude smaller than 10 years ago.  By the time we reach
> TL12...

Just in the last couple of years, compulsator power has gone  while size
continues to decline.

For those interested in railguns in general, try
http://home.insightbb.com/~jmengel4/rail/rail-intro.html
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 20:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sat Aug  3 19:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
References: <20020803223629.15105.10842.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <005301c23b5b$c2967c20$2a5d8690@computer>

From: Tyge
> The second thing is that climate unless you do have a uniform world (like
> Venus) will vary, so what is standard climate is a bit like saying "this
> is a mountain world". Rather Star-Wars generalization. A world humans
> would endure on likely would not be so generic.

Actually I've been playing with this silly idea a bit over the last few
months.

If a world is sparsely populated enough, the entire population might live in
a single small area. This area would then be "the world" as far as climate,
geography and so on go.

I was working on a bit of a heretical almost-not-Traveller system, where
systems, worlds and so on are abstracted down to a few important areas, like
the area around the starport, the patch of space around the mainworld, and
so on. (If the PCs go outside the "important areas", new "important areas"
can be created.)

Handling worlds "Star Wars style" would be perfectly acceptable in this
case, as long as you understand what you are doing.

Then again, my other heresy is a bit of a fondness for placing colonies on
non-habitable worlds. Basically I see it as simpler to establish an
artificial terrestrial ecosystem than to muck about with an existing
non-terrestrial one. Such colonies would pretty much be domed, and possess a
relatively uniform climate.

Terraforming could occur in the long-term, of course. These are the most
plausible "habitable worlds", IMHO, since they are made to be suitable for
human settlement. But of course, terraforming takes time, and the scale (and
violence!) of the chemical reactions involved suggest that it would take a
long time. You are not just changing the composition of the atmosphere - you
are changing the composition of the crust. Even if you can force the change
to occur very quickly, I doubt that the geology would settle down in much
less than a thousand years or so. That's the blink of an eye in geological
terms, of course.

A terraformed world would have a full set of climates. The situation where
settlement is limited to a specific area might still occur.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com







From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 20:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 19:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
In-Reply-To: <F22igG68YuXKL951y1M0002578e@hotmail.com>
References: <F22igG68YuXKL951y1M0002578e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <200208032212560742.53699E59@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 8/4/2002 at 12:29 AM Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com>
>
>     "I think he is just trying to draw attention to the new Traveller 
>webzine we have opened, rather than anything specific."
>
>Mr. Gordon,
>
>     Why, that is splendid news, sir!  I wish you every success with the
>new 
>webzine.  "More" definitely IS "merrier"!

Thank you sir! I would like to note that the CotI webzine is for ALL=
 versions of our favorite game, not just T20. We're happy to consider=
 articles and material for publication for any ruleset and milieu, along=
 with 'variant' articles as well.

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 20:40:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 19:40:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Superstition (and movies)
Message-ID: <102.1921e4ba.2a7dede0@aol.com>

>>Several years ago, I was toying with the notion of writing a book of war 
>>movie reviews discussing the relative level of accuracy of each (although I 

>>think it has already been done). GETTYSBURG is one of my faves in this 
>>regard. 
>
>Great film.  "General, I have no division..."

I'm torn as to which scene I like better . . . Sgt. Kilrain declaiming on why 
he's fighting the war ("I'll be treated as _I_ deserve, not as my father 
deserved."), Colonel Chamberlain declaiming on why HE'S fighting the war, or 
the whole Little Round Top sequence, or Lee meditating on soldiering's one 
great trap, or Lee reading the riot act to Stuart ("Your cavalry, General, 
are the eyes of this army . . . without them, we are made blind.") -- or any 
one of a dozen or so more. 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 21:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 20:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Superstition (and movies)
Message-ID: <200208040300.MAB00894@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

LKW says
>I'm torn as to which scene I like better . . .

Nope.  Although I hated the movie Blues Brothers 2000, 
there's a scene where Dan Aykroyd "rallies the troops" with a 
major slam against the current music scene.

I have given a similar speech to youth at a Wizards of the 
Coast store who thought that video games were more fun than 
roleplaying games.  Not sure if I got any converts...

But I did drop Loren's name.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 21:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 20:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
Message-ID: <200208040317.MAB01365@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

(We should come up with a longer list of names below)

You may go play video games if you wish.

Remember this: Walk away now and you walk away from your 
interest in history, your ability to tell a good story, your 
ability to translate dreams into reality; leaving the next 
generation with nothing but recycled, unimaginative first-
person shooters, online quasi-historical strategy games, yet 
another multiplayer NFL game, violence-laden driving 
simulations, and mindless revisions of innumerable cute 
Japanese animations. Depart now and you forever separate 
yourselves from the vital gaming legacies of James Dunnigan, 
Steve Jackson, Gary Gygax, Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank 
Chadwick, Andrew Keith, William Keith, John Harshman, 
Professor Barker, 
and Richard Tucholka.

(Doug says, 'Who is Richard Tucholka?' )

Turn your backs now and you snuff out the fragile candles of 
Board Gaming, Miniatures, Fantasy and Science Fiction 
Roleplaying, and when those flames flicker and expire, the 
light of the world is extinguished because the creative 
thought which has moved mankind through the decades leading 
to the millenium will wither and die on the vine of 
abandonment and neglect. 


________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 22:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 21:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22C8B@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <20803.205539.2T1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Time-Travel is a huge no-no. Do I have something against it? Yes and no.
> It's entertaining and fascinating to speculate on, but it would seriously
> unbalance a campaign.
> I also like the idea that consequences of one's actions are
> irreversable...Time Travel far too often gives one an out to correct
> mistakes.

Well, the theoretical work that physicists have done on the possibility
of time travel in the real world says that two things will be true if
it's possible:

1. You can't travel back before the instant the machione is first
   activated.

2. You can't alter the past. You'd have free will to the exact extent
   that you *don't* know what happened. 

This can frustrate the hell out of people. <eg>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 22:21:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sat Aug  3 21:21:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Superstition (and Movies)
In-Reply-To: <d.2aca729a.2a7ca6f7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4D53F6.19862.BBFCC9@localhost>

On 2 Aug 2002, at 23:24, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> Several years ago, I was toying with the notion of writing a book of war movie
> reviews discussing the relative level of accuracy of each (although I think it
> has already been done). GETTYSBURG is one of my faves in this regard. 

My one beef with the movie (other than those I have with the battle itself) is 
that if Pickett had as many men in real life as he had in the movie, he'd 
have been across that field and half way to Washington before the final 
credits.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 22:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sat Aug  3 21:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <3.0.5.16.20020803121034.44ff804c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <008701c23b70$f1af5210$7400a8c0@matt>

> Which Roman was it that got ripped to shreds in Germany?

Varus, IIRC

Matt



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 22:41:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sat Aug  3 21:41:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Landgrab
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMEFHIKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

I'm landgrabbing Macene, Rhylanor 2612


________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 23:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 22:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <3.0.5.16.20020803123126.44ff6796@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3D4CB61E.AF2B843D@mindspring.com>

"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:
> 
> At 11:12 AM 8/3/2002 EDT, you wrote:
> 
> >And that will work in my favor, as much of the Spinward Population lives in
> >the highly protected worlds of Trin, Mora, Glisten, Rhylanor, and Palique,
> >and the main fleet is very close by to Rethe, Louzy, Lunion, Jewell, and
> >Vilis.  That's almost half of the Spinward Marches on those planets alone.
> 
> My Sword World allies will tie down the Lunion and Glisten fleets. 

The Glisten Fleet is waiting to slag the Swordies and their Forinian
allies. 

> Vargr forces will raid the Coreward ends of Regina and Aramis to draw off fleet
> elements from those subsectors.  Raiders and deep penetration fleets will
> be sent into Regina and Villis for commerce and raiding and hit&run attacks
> against starports capable of repairing navy ships.
> 
> My main thrust will come at Louzy/Jewell and Grant/Jewell.  Cutting off the
> Jewell cluster.  Louzy has no gas giant, and Grant only two, making these
> systems easy to hold.
> 
> With the door barred, and my penetrators wrecking havoc, I move on the
> Jewell cluster itself.  Ruby (1005), Emerald (1006), and Mongo (1204) are
> the first targets. All are relatively low tech, and only Mongo has a Naval
> base.  From there, I send more forces to Lysen (1307).  Lysen doesn't have
> enough people or technology to put up a stiff resitience.  These moves
> would be on a timed basis, with fleets moving according to schedule.
> 
> Once everyhing was secure, I'd move the bulk of my fleets to Jewell (1106)
> along with the invasion force.  Jewell would be a tough nut to crack
> 
> (Divergence, I just had the most amazing case of deja-vu.  I clearly
> remembered typing that exact sentiece before, on this computer.  Weird)
> 
> With you reacting to my previous moves, I have you out of position.  I can
> begin the bombardment of targets on the planet with minimal interference.
> I would send troops down *as quickly as is possible* because in orbit, they
> are targets.  On the ground, they are an asset.  My forces at the other
> worlds have couriers stationed with them; ordered to jump out *the moment*
> a large Imperial force engages my force.  This will give me at least a
> little warning.
> 
> Obviously, there are holes in this attack, since I just came up with it.
> The biggest hole I see is a fleet coming through the Federation of Arden on
> my Rimward flank.  Placing pickets at Zircon (1110), Utoland (1209), Pequan
> (1210), and 871-438 (1510) would give me warning, although I am probably
> short on ships at this point.  Just have to hope that the raiders and
> Swordies are doing their job.
> 
> There, a clear plan with goals.  That's what the Imperial player would also
> need.  There is never a time when allowing massive friendly civilian
> casualties is acceptable.
> --
> 
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 23:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shadowcat)
Date: Sat Aug  3 22:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
In-Reply-To: <200208040317.MAB01365@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D4C6254.25855.23272CD@localhost>

(Doug says, 'Who is Richard Tucholka?' )

Stalking the Night Fantastic, Fringeworthy, FTL 2448


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 23:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 22:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] missiles
Message-ID: <74.20c8274f.2a7e1200@aol.com>

 >It [MT] states that a 100 ton bay used as a magazine can hold
 >13500 missiles, but not launch them,

If the bay was tightly packed with missiles that would indicate that each 
missile container is 10 inches square and less than 5 feet tall.  Such 
missiles will be transported over long distances and subject to much shock 
during transport, and may sit in their canisters for years, so the canister 
will be heavily padded and sealed to provide a long shelf-life and to reduce 
the chance of sympathetic explosions.  Is 10 inches by 5 feet of padded 
cannister really big enough to hold a spacegoing missile?

CT HG2 says zero about it, so I just decided that some of a 50 ton or 100 ton 
missile bay was filled with guidance equipment and gunner positions, with the 
rest of the bay occupied by preloaded sealed cannisters containing each 
salvo.  The gunners initiate launch, the cannister pops open and out go 30 
missiles.  I chose 30 because it seemed to me that a bay would gain better 
use of its missiles than a turret battery because it had better guidance 
equipment rather than simply because it used more missiles, and that made 
sense because missile batteries have to bear before they can shoot.  Having 
each salvo in its own cannister also would make it easy to transport, load, 
unload, and mix-and-match.

 >Not that they've ever fired all 50 b/r's. I think the most
 >they ever used in one engagement is 6 b/r's.

You never can have too many missiles.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 23:15:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug  3 22:15:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
In-Reply-To: <3D4C6254.25855.23272CD@localhost>
Message-ID: <B9720629.67BC4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/3/02 9:08 PM, Shadowcat at res053z0@gten.net wrote:

> (Doug says, 'Who is Richard Tucholka?' )
> 
> Stalking the Night Fantastic, Fringeworthy, FTL 2448
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

Hey, I still have my copy of FTL 2448 somewhere.  Fringeworthy too.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 23:16:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 22:16:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for the Atro-genius Types (was: System Gen
 Help)
In-Reply-To: <20020803210827.89257.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <c9.261a11c4.2a7d38e2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803175336.3b4f0dc8@pop.mindspring.com>

At 02:08 PM 8/3/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>Would it be possible for a planet be captured into an
>L4 or L5 point on a Gas Giant?

Anything is *possible*, but it would be a one in a billion shot.

1. The developing mass of the gas giant will disrupt planetary formation,
so it would need to be a captured world.

2. It would have to enter the system on the *exact* right course at a
precise time at the right speed.

3. The planet would need to enter on the plane of the rest of the system,
and not encounter anything else.

This is incredibly unlikely. Even if it has happened, it's most likely to
be around an outer gas giant and be a fairly small world.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 23:17:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 22:17:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <73.238e61b4.2a7db467@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803180658.3b4f38f8@pop.mindspring.com>

At 06:34 PM 8/3/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>Fully capable men 40 years of age are also barred from enlistment.
There's >a reason.

Yep.  It's called age.  There are definite changes in people between 18 and
40.  Soliders are best when trained as young men.  Or women.

> >Of course, the poor dears can't be expected to understand politics, manage
> >an estate or run a business either. Any you know? they couldn't do it. Not
> >until someone let them try.
>
>They are trying it.  And it's causing far more damage than good.

Wow, you are making a bid for greatness!  You will be in the halls with
such greats as Clif and Leroy.

ObTrav: Worlds with wildly different views on gender roles.  Hit the
players with a world where men are second-class citizens and kept in the
house.  Or one where men and woman are equal, but never seen togehter in
polite society.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 23:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 22:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] 40-year olds
Message-ID: <7e.2b89905d.2a7e16b8@aol.com>

 >>Why does the Army do this?  Because 40 year olds, as a 
 >>whole, have sufficient problems that the Army knows it will 
 >>lose more in attempting to incorporate them than it will 
 >>gain.
 >
 >No, no, no.  The reason the Army won't enlist you is because 
 >the "useful lifetime" of the older soldier is shorter.

Well, now you are citing "the needs of the service" rather than the right to 
serve.  I think the needs of the service should be consistently foremost.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 23:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug  3 22:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] 40-year olds
In-Reply-To: <7e.2b89905d.2a7e16b8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B9720DAD.67BE2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/3/02 10:33 PM, Flykiller@aol.com at Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>>> Why does the Army do this?  Because 40 year olds, as a
>>> whole, have sufficient problems that the Army knows it will
>>> lose more in attempting to incorporate them than it will
>>> gain.
>> 
>> No, no, no.  The reason the Army won't enlist you is because
>> the "useful lifetime" of the older soldier is shorter.
> 
> Well, now you are citing "the needs of the service" rather than the right to
> serve.  I think the needs of the service should be consistently foremost.

It should be noted that the same types of restrictions apply to other
Federal service.  For example, you cannot apply to any federal law
enforcement agency unless you will have enough years of service for
retirement by age 55.  Meaning that after age 35, your too old to be an FBI,
DEA or ATF agent.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 23:48:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 22:48:09 2002
Subject: [TML] missiles
References: <74.20c8274f.2a7e1200@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4CBFD6.E47799B2@mindspring.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> 
>  >It [MT] states that a 100 ton bay used as a magazine can hold
>  >13500 missiles, but not launch them,
> 
> If the bay was tightly packed with missiles that would indicate that each
> missile container is 10 inches square and less than 5 feet tall.  Such
> missiles will be transported over long distances and subject to much shock
> during transport, and may sit in their canisters for years, so the canister
> will be heavily padded and sealed to provide a long shelf-life and to reduce
> the chance of sympathetic explosions.  Is 10 inches by 5 feet of padded
> cannister really big enough to hold a spacegoing missile?

I have slightly different figures but it could be conversion errors. In
MT and IMMTU it is. They only accelerate for 40 or so minutes. Can't do
it in the here and now, but we're talking about an internally consistent
game set in the far future.
 
> CT HG2 says zero about it, so I just decided that some of a 50 ton or 100 ton
> missile bay was filled with guidance equipment and gunner positions, with the
> rest of the bay occupied by preloaded sealed cannisters containing each
> salvo.  The gunners initiate launch, the cannister pops open and out go 30
> missiles.  I chose 30 because it seemed to me that a bay would gain better
> use of its missiles than a turret battery because it had better guidance
> equipment rather than simply because it used more missiles, and that made
> sense because missile batteries have to bear before they can shoot.  Having
> each salvo in its own cannister also would make it easy to transport, load,
> unload, and mix-and-match.

IMMTU those 2 b/r's in the bay are in an internal magazine capable of
handling nuclear or antimatter missiles depending on TL of the ship. The
rest of the bay is filled with targeting and guidance equipment. The
increased factor come from a combination of additional missiles and
better guidance / tracking. Gunners positions are outside the bay except
during maintenance. Additional magazine may added.

The shipping containers are somewhat bigger than 0.1 Kl, that is the
magazine requirement, I'm thinking 0.15 kl or so. 
 
Turrets, unless they have an attached magazine, must be reloaded between
shots. Pity the lone gunner on the free trader humping missiles from the
cargo bay to the turret. All the while being screamed at by the pilot,
navigator, engineer, steward and all the passengers.

>  >Not that they've ever fired all 50 b/r's. I think the most
>  >they ever used in one engagement is 6 b/r's.
> 
> You never can have too many missiles.

I quite agree.

-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was  COTI website)
In-Reply-To: <00fa01c23b49$63e1f7c0$a211bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <20020804060231.5D9A02793A@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/04/02 at 12:55 AM,  "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
said:


>> 
>> So, to those that think Martan, Loren, et al are "spamming" this group
>> I politely offer the suggestion..."Go suck eggs!"  

>Heh. If you can't announce trav content on the trav website, what's
>it for?

>That said, the "spam" reference was, I belive, tongue in cheek.

Perhaps, but spam and eggs are a breakfast treat! <g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:04:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:04:00 2002
Subject: [TML] Alternative Gender Roles in the Third Imperium
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020803180658.3b4f38f8@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <73.238e61b4.2a7db467@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020804010359.00aaa590@minn.net>

The Lord of the Penguins wrote:

>ObTrav: Worlds with wildly different views on gender roles.  Hit the
>players with a world where men are second-class citizens and kept in the
>house.  Or one where men and woman are equal, but never seen togehter in
>polite society.
>-- 
>
>Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Name one. Please.

Preferably between Regina and the Coreward boundary of the 3I. (If not,
I'll write it in as a flashback.)

[Les just woke up after sleeping through the alarm clock's buzzing for one
hour and eleven minutes (a record) thus missing Rocky Horror night at the
Riverview Theatre. Les is not a happy boy right now.]


(Hoping the drive through at the Burger Thing is still open) Les


==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <10.22d0c4c9.2a7e1fae@aol.com>

 >In other words, we're talking about two entirely different situations. I'm
 >discussing defending a hypothetical sector from equally hypothetical (but
 >real for the purposes of the exercise) interstellar fleets, and you're
 >playing High Guard.
 >
 >I don't think we can accept one another's assumptions, so the exercise is
 >pointless..

Well, I'll have to agree there.  You have intelligence information, I don't.  
My fleet is chasing ghosts, while you are concentrating accurately at will.   
 My supply lines are vulnerable, while yours are irrelevant.  You have 
tonnage enough for both a large raiding force and yet also a main fleet 
apparently equal to mine.  Your raiders and decoys advance, do their thing, 
and then fall back, and I never see them coming or going.  You insist I'm in 
a political situation that requires me to defend every last backwater in the 
name of publicity, while you have no such concerns.  And you make it sound 
like I'm defending a bunch of virgin Americans instead of a population that 
has gone through five previous wars and has survived.  You're right, I don't 
accept it.

But I'd love to play it.  You're right, I think victories are achieved 
militarily.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:15:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:15:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
In-Reply-To: <3D4C6254.25855.23272CD@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208032313260.28625-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Sat, 3 Aug 2002, Shadowcat wrote:

> (Doug says, 'Who is Richard Tucholka?' )
> 
> Stalking the Night Fantastic, Fringeworthy, FTL 2448

What's Richard doing these days?  We were sort of friends in the 80's--
knew a lot of the same folks, turned up at parties together, etc.  I think
he may have been at my first wedding.

Anyone hanging out with him, tell him Kiri Morgan says hi-- although I
think you might have to tell him I used to be Kiri Westfall!

Kiri :)

**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] realism
Message-ID: <53.1a729e8e.2a7e21cd@aol.com>

 >  I agree with you that this is a RPG and realism doesn't carry much weight 
 >really...so why not play dnd instead?

Flavor.  Heck, play both.

 >btw.......Imperial nobles IMHO can be modelled after the Catholic Church of 
 >the middle ages. 
 >The held massive amounts of power without holding the reigns of any single 
 >country. Yet no king would dare go against the Pope in those days.

The kings and their subjects believed, and a Pope wields spiritual power.  
Why would an Imperial Emperor be viewed in the same way?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Check Your Landgrabs!
Message-ID: <1ad.629357b.2a7e2295@aol.com>

What is the landgrab?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Paging Martin Dougherty
References: <20020804013343.15643.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <005e01c23b82$c3ebe840$8a0fbd50@martinjd>

> Martin,
> 
> I hadn't heard from you, and was wondering if you got
> the info you had asked for.
> 
> Let me know, I can send it again if you haven't gotten
> it yet.

Uhh? It Morning. Me Brain-Slow. Remind What Information? 
Me Find Breakfast Cereal Now. Kill And Eat Cereal. Cereal Good. 




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:38:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:38:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Paging Martin Dougherty
References: <20020804013343.15643.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <008101c23b82$ff35d320$8a0fbd50@martinjd>

> Martin,
>
> I hadn't heard from you, and was wondering if you got
> the info you had asked for.
>
> Let me know, I can send it again if you haven't gotten
> it yet.

Uhh? It Morning. Me Brain-Slow. Remind What Information?
Me Find Breakfast Cereal Now. Kill And Eat Cereal. Cereal Good.

(I lost ALL my archived email recently, so there's a few loose ends I'm not
even aware of. Is this in reference to the bioweapon stuff, or something
else?)







From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <18c.bd4c936.2a7e26e9@aol.com>

 >>Ah, a general overall fleet attack.  You describe a situation some weeks 
 >>after it has begun.  I think my scouts would give me a more accurate
 picture, 
 >>and sooner.  I will send a message to Deneb to send a fleet.
 >
 >Two months to get there at Jump-6.  Assuming an entire fleet is ready to
 >rush to your aid, 2-3 months to get it to the front.

Oh, I'm sure it wouldn't rush to the front.  That fleet commander will want a 
clear picture of what is going on as he approaches with whatever he 
approaches with.

>>that straggle back home looking for support.  Further I'll send the fleet 
>>raider task force to shoot up whatever they can in other worlds in that
>>area. 

>What are his war goals?  If it is disrupting the Imperial confidence in the
>sector, you will not be able to justify your move politically!  Remember,
>in WWII the US went on the offensive only after Midway.

Well, his goals will be to disrupt general shipping, of course.

 >> Two can play this game, only I'll do it with concentrated task forces.  
Let 
 >>the consule at Cronor yell at _his_ commander:  "There are a thousand 
 >>frigates at Querion!  Do something!"
 >
 >Meanwhile there are a hundred ships at Jewell, Efate, Pixie.. destroying
 >naval bases and advanced starports.

If he gets them in without me seeing them coming.  Why does everyone assume 
I'm blind and he sees all?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <ca.f8487da.2a7e2802@aol.com>

 >Cool.  And in the same time, you have the Zhos coming from everywhere (the
 >Consulate is much smaller, y'know) and the Zho's destroying the ares you
 >were supposed to be defending!  If you are lucky, you'll be killed in
 >battle, and won't be hung for gross incompetence.
 >
 >Mission is everything.  If you have been attacked, your first duty as an
 >Imperial officer is to defend the state.  Taking the war to the enemy's
 >home is a political decision.

It seems I am to be the passive blind recipient of whatever comes my way, 
while my opponent is free to act with clear vision.  You're right.  I'd lose.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <a.22f0514d.2a7e28ce@aol.com>

 >> >You're thniking of everything in terms of a mapboard and counters. I'm
 >> >discussing warfare.
 >>
 >>I'm thinking in terms of what the actually constructed vessels will do 
 >>according to the rules, yes.  You are thinking in terms of imagining what
 you 
 >>think various effects will be.  I'll take the hardware -- such as it is -- 
 >>and I'll have the last word.
 >
 >You are really setting records for honking people off here, you know that?

That was offensive?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 01:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Sun Aug  4 00:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] 40-year olds
In-Reply-To: <200208031505.LZD01427@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <003e01c23c23$c7b6c0c0$1001a8c0@sauron>

John T. Kwon wrote :
> Flykiller says
> >Why does the Army do this?  Because 40 year olds, as a 
> >whole, have sufficient problems that the Army knows it will 
> >lose more in attempting to incorporate them than it will 
> >gain.
> 
> No, no, no.  The reason the Army won't enlist you is because 
> the "useful lifetime" of the older soldier is shorter.  Not 
> because you can't pass the PT test.  
> 
> Training is an expense - and once they spend the money, 
> they expect a useful time period after that, including 
> reserve time.

And in fact, the military is known to waive this rule if 
you are already trained. My father was offered enlistment 
and the automatic rank (in that if he accpted the job, he 
got the rank) of Flight Lieutenant when he was 38, because 
at the time the Air Force needed experienced and trained 
civil engineers _now_, rather than in six years when they 
had trained some. 

> Most Delta Force soldiers are between the ages of 35 and 40.  
> The Army does not have a problem with age as it pertains to 
> performance.

Anyone who harbours any misapprehensions about the combat 
effectiveness of people over forty, needs to go and look 
at the accomplishments of Choyun Miyagi. 

I believe this may have the been the person who 
"The Karate Kid"'s mentor, Mr. Miyagi, was modelled on. 

Or how about the European 747 pilot who qualfied as a "samurai" 
shortly after his 40th birthday? (The newspaper report said 
"samurai", what I think they meant was he was the first European 
to be granted the top rank in kenjutsu.)
  
And then there were the first US astronauts....

If you want both fitness _and_ lots of combat experience, you have 
to get people who over 35. Anyone younger, unless they were born 
to the PLO or something similar, just doesn't have the experience. 

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 01:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 00:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
Message-ID: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>

 >But anyway... let's put this interesting debate to bed...

Concur.  Please ignore any further posts I've made on this.

And thanks.  I've been dying for years to talk to someone about this.  It was 
great.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 01:20:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 00:20:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
 traveller)
Message-ID: <880f68582e.8582e880f6@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Date: Saturday, August 3, 2002 8:57 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in 
traveller)

<<snip>>
> 
> While there is likely a connection between PTSD and rapid 
> reintegration back
> into 'normal' life, experts have also linked PSTD to the extensive 
> use of
> operant conditioning of soldiers that occurred after WWII.
> 
> What provisions does the Imperium make for combat veterans 
> returning to
> civilian life?  Are long voyages home sufficient?

<tongue-in-cheek>

Well, considering how many Trav characters end up with Gun and/or Blade 
as mustering-out benefits, the 3I military doesn't seem to have a major 
problem with PTSD sufferers going postal.... ;-)

</tongue-in-cheek>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 01:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug  4 00:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>

What I'd like to read and participate in is an analysis of fleet
composition, weapons, defensive system and tactics in GURPS Traveller,
and how they differ from other incarnations of Traveller space combat
systems.  Unfortunately I lack the necessary experience with other
Traveller space combat systems :/

From what I can see, the weapons and defensive equipment available in
GT starship design have just been translated from other Traveller
design systems without regard to how effective they actually are in
GURPS.

I presume that similar things happened between other versions of
Traveller rule sets.  Will it happen again with T20?  Will there be a
starship design and space combat supplement for that?


Do people find it desirable to explore the various consequences of
different combat models, or would they prefer to have the same model
across all incarnations of Traveller?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 01:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sun Aug  4 00:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
 traveller)
In-Reply-To: <880f68582e.8582e880f6@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020804024508.00aac9c0@minn.net>

At 10:19 AM 8/4/2002 +0300, john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:

>Well, considering how many Trav characters end up with Gun and/or Blade 
>as mustering-out benefits, the 3I military doesn't seem to have a major 
>problem with PTSD sufferers going postal.... ;-)
>
></tongue-in-cheek>

I don't recall postal workers being a problem back when the LBB's came out.

Though there was a bit of fuss being raised over Sun Set Loony and his
followers.  ;-)


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 01:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Sun Aug  4 00:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
 <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <200208040353580835.54A1D865@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 8/4/2002 at 5:34 PM Timothy Little wrote:

>I presume that similar things happened between other versions of
>Traveller rule sets.  Will it happen again with T20?  Will there be a
>starship design and space combat supplement for that?

T20 has the starship design rules (along with everything else!) in the main=
 book. They are based directly off of High Guard (v2). There are some minor=
 differences, but ships designed with either system should be readily=
 interchangable.

There are two sets of combat rules presents, a basic set that is abstract=
 and deals more with the roleplaying than mechanics, and the advance combat=
 system which is much more tactical and uses 2 'megahexes' to plot long=
 range and short range tactical movement.

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 02:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 01:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: HULL THICKNESS LIMITATION
Message-ID: <200208040804.g7484Pw19092@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Flykiller@aol.com
>Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat HULL THICKNESS LIMITATION
...
> >HULL
> >185.000 tons standard, 2,590.000 cubic meters, Planetoid Configuration
>
>In a Planetoid Configuration of this size the maximum thickness of the outer 
>hull is 0.6 meters and likely much less.  If this ship were 185,000 tons, the 
>maximum outer thickness of the outer hull would be 6.0 meters.  Yet in both 
>cases they are considered to be naturally armor 3.  I think there should be a 
>lower limit on allowable tonnages for Planetoid and Buffered Planetoid ships.

  Sure, but that function also applies to armour on ships.

  See also Mr. Thrash' essay on internal structure issues for large ships.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 02:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 01:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
 <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

Hello Tim,
  The missile damage rules in GURPS TRAVELLER make missile craft that much
  more deadly than they were in any other TRAVELLER incarnation.  I
  personally do not use the GURPS STARSHIP combat rules as presented, nor
  am I pleased with rendition of the Meson weapons in the GURPS TRAVELLER
  rule set.  Having said that however, I would be pleased to discuss the
  topic matter you proposed...

            Hal



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 02:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Aug  4 01:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020803180658.3b4f38f8@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <3.0.5.16.20020803180658.3b4f38f8@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m3lm7njaot.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes:

> At 06:34 PM 8/3/2002 EDT, you wrote:
> 
> > Fully capable men 40 years of age are also barred from enlistment.
> > There's a reason.
> 
> Yep.  It's called age.  There are definite changes in people between
> 18 and 40.  Soliders are best when trained as young men.  Or women.

When I visited the Naval Academy at the end of my brother's plebe
summer, I recall a certain amount of puzzlement when watching the
plebes parading by.  A portion of them were smaller than my 11 yr. old
brother, and skinnier too (a fair accomplishment, that).  I recall
thinking to myself that I though only 17+ yr. olds were allowed in.
Then I took a closer look.  Every one of those `boys' was a girl.

In fairness, at the parade at the end of his midshipman career the
differences were not quite so pronounced.

> ObTrav: Worlds with wildly different views on gender roles.  Hit the
> players with a world where men are second-class citizens and kept in
> the house.

I believe that at least one of those already exists...

> Or one where men and woman are equal, but never seen togehter in
> polite society.

That'd be odd.  What's the mechanism?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
But it's more than that, of course; bad spelling just isn't respectable.
You may, perhaps, want to lament this fact.  You are free to do so.  The
fact remains.                                            --John Mitchell

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 02:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Sun Aug  4 01:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was  COTI website)
In-Reply-To: <20020804060231.5D9A02793A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPGEAHEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Was that spam and eggs
or spam, spam egs and spam?

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Eris Reddoch
Sent: Sunday, 4 August 2002 2:03 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was COTI website)


On 08/04/02 at 12:55 AM,  "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
said:


>> 
>> So, to those that think Martan, Loren, et al are "spamming" this group
>> I politely offer the suggestion..."Go suck eggs!"  

>Heh. If you can't announce trav content on the trav website, what's
>it for?

>That said, the "spam" reference was, I belive, tongue in cheek.

Perhaps, but spam and eggs are a breakfast treat! <g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 02:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Sun Aug  4 01:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPGEAHEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPGEAHEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
Message-ID: <200208040445160020.54D0CCA6@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 8/4/2002 at 4:21 PM Antony Farrell wrote:

>Was that spam and eggs
>or spam, spam egs and spam?

Ok gotta keep it on topic!

Pardons if this has actually been covered previously.

So does SPAM survive the Rule of Man, the Long Night and into the Third=
 Imperium? If so, is it just a Solomani thing, or have the Vilani and=
 others come to enjoy this uniquely Terran... ummm .... stuff? I'm just=
 picturing a group of adventurers finding an old Rule of Man cache,=
 stockpiled with cans of good old SPAM!

Inquiring minds want to know!

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 02:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Sun Aug  4 01:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <20020803203103.12400.34750.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentr
 al.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804013527.009f91d0@mailhost.efn.org>

>The program was successful.  The number of troops firing in combat went from
>10-30% to over 90%.  Many psychiatrists and others in the field have
>suggested that this operant conditioning may have had deleterious effects in
>that it short circuits the natural human reluctance to kill.

Which was, of course, precisely the intended result.  The real trick is 
turning that reflex back ON again after you've deliberately broken 
it.  This is a little harder than beating a sword back into a plowshare; 
more like unscrambling an egg.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 03:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 02:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <25.2b8bf94f.2a7e4e43@aol.com>

In a message dated 04/08/02 09:24:19 GMT Daylight Time, ruhl@4dv.net writes:


> Or one where men and woman are equal, but never seen togehter in
> polite society.

That'd be odd.  What's the mechanism?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

One option is visible fertility - humans are unusual in that we don't know 
when women are in oestrus. In a society where that didn't exist there is 
likely to be tight social control over gender interaction.

You might see harem based families (K'Kree) or you might see a society where 
males and females have parrallel societies with extremely ritualised methods 
of interaction, particularly if women tend to become fertile at around the 
same time.

One interesting possibilty is Vagr society where it would be obvious to every 
male within quite a distance that the high ranking, young female en route to 
take part in a political wedding and placed in the care of the PCs by her 
doting (if somewhat inflexible, powerful and violent father) has just come 
"on heat" for the first time...

Do male Aslan mark their territory?

"Elmer that danged tomcat's peeing on the airlock again! Go own scat, shoo - 
you pee on it you pay for it!"

Charles

I addressed some cheerful chit-chat at the man opposite but was rewarded with 
grunt. I tried the man next to me but he just looked at the gentleman I had 
tried first and said "Do you know what he's talking about?" At this point I 
realised I was getting out my depth but the Dean stepped in and saved me, "Oh 
don't worry about it" he said, "They're mathematicians - we never talk to 
them."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 05:12:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 04:12:10 2002
Subject: [TML] 40-year olds
Message-ID: <memo.591614@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <003e01c23c23$c7b6c0c0$1001a8c0@sauron>
> And in fact, the military is known to waive this rule if 
> you are already trained. My father was offered enlistment 
> and the automatic rank (in that if he accpted the job, he 
> got the rank) of Flight Lieutenant when he was 38, because 
> at the time the Air Force needed experienced and trained 
> civil engineers _now_, rather than in six years when they 
> had trained some. 

I was invited back once, to a Reservist unit, at age 40, living the other 
end of the country to their base, and with responsibility for a small 
child. I had skills they were after...

... didn't work out in the end, but I had fun visiting them :-)

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 05:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 04:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <20020804054809.26103.98485.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17bJb8-0007Wi-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

> In mail you write:
> 
> > Time-Travel is a huge no-no. Do I have something against it? Yes and
> > no. It's entertaining and fascinating to speculate on, but it would
> > seriously unbalance a campaign. I also like the idea that
> > consequences of one's actions are irreversable...Time Travel far too
> > often gives one an out to correct mistakes.
> 
> Well, the theoretical work that physicists have done on the
> possibility of time travel in the real world says that two things will
> be true if it's possible:
> 
> 1. You can't travel back before the instant the machione is first
>    activated.
> 
> 2. You can't alter the past. You'd have free will to the exact extent
>    that you *don't* know what happened. 

Actually, from what I've read, those are only true *if* causality is 
always preserved.  If it is possible to utterly toss causality out the 
window, then time travel can involve whatever you want.  It's 
interesting to me that preservation of causality seems something 
almost all phyicists assume to be true w/o having any absolute 
necessity that the world actually operates this way.  We haven't 
seen any obvious causality violations, but until last century we also 
never saw any obvious relativistic effects.  Personally, I think the 
universe would be a considerably more interesting (in all possible 
meanings of this word) place is causality is not strictly preserved.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 05:34:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sun Aug  4 04:34:05 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
References: <ca.f8487da.2a7e2802@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4D10E8.FE3A4CDB@mindspring.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> 
>  >Cool.  And in the same time, you have the Zhos coming from everywhere (the
>  >Consulate is much smaller, y'know) and the Zho's destroying the ares you
>  >were supposed to be defending!  If you are lucky, you'll be killed in
>  >battle, and won't be hung for gross incompetence.
>  >
>  >Mission is everything.  If you have been attacked, your first duty as an
>  >Imperial officer is to defend the state.  Taking the war to the enemy's
>  >home is a political decision.
> 
> It seems I am to be the passive blind recipient of whatever comes my way,
> while my opponent is free to act with clear vision.  You're right.  I'd lose.
> 

Damn mind rapers! Lets kill some Joies!


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 06:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Aug  4 05:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <memo.561259@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3D4DC34C.24200.5FD4B2@localhost>

On 2 Aug 2002 at 23:54, Megan Robertson wrote:

> In-Reply-To: <02Aug2.151432pdt.119054@gw.city.vancouver.bc.ca>
> > > On Fri, 2 Aug 2002 Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> > 
> > <SNIP>
> > 
> > > I've been trying to decide whether or not to killfile you for a 
> > > while--
> > > thanks for helping me out.
> > 
> >  Moi aussi.
> 
> I am laughing too hard to issue the requisite command.
> 
> Mexal.
> former infantry sergeant of the female persuasion.

Somehow I don't think this idea will get very far over here. About 1-in-
6 (IIRC) of our military personnel are female, and there are now no 
positions that they are prohibited from entering (Ops Diver and SAS 
being opened to female personnel about a year ago). Moving females back 
into separate support organisations would utterly cripple what little 
military we still have.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 06:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Aug  4 05:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <40.21b2d6f0.2a7cfea7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4DC641.25712.6B6046@localhost>

On 3 Aug 2002 at 5:38, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>  >And I daresay that if we have women serving in full combat capacity
>  >under the regimes of either seperate standards (i.e. where they must
>  >not meet the same standards as men) or reduced standards (e.g. I
>  >understand that two-man stretcher teams are now four or more), we will
>  >see plenty of human beings who die miserably because their comrades
>  >are not up to the task.
> 
> Actually, I'll bet we won't.  The military is talking now about how much 
> future warfare will be on the level of special ops, utilizing local troops 
> and only sending in special forces to coordinate bomb strikes, like in 
> Afghanistan.
> 
> Army?  What army?

I'll believe that when I see it. This sort of talking has always turned 
out to be wishful thinking in the past, and I see no reason why it 
isn't now. It's all very well while you're thrashing low-tech thrid-
worlders, but sooner or later there'll be another first-world vs first-
world scrap, and spec ops teams relying on vast amounts of support just 
won't cut it.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 06:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Strain)
Date: Sun Aug  4 05:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020804113405.2614.19201.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001001c23bb4$101d4160$92aa5940@dixienet.com>

MISSION: Get EVERYBODY on the list.
METHOD  act in a resonably manner, be polite, but challenge EVERYTHING they
say in response to your comments.
Call them idiots - in a polite manner of course. Act as if YOUR word is
God's and thier's at best ravings.


My take:  POINTLESS -- Why pointless? Because you set out to waste bandwith
with false agruements!

This was the FIRST  'agreement" made in one complete week.
************
>I don't think we can accept one another's assumptions, so the exercise is
 >pointless..
From: Flykiller@aol.com
Well, I'll have to agree there.

*************
From: Flykiller@aol.com ate: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 02:11:58 EDT
>In other words, we're talking about two entirely different situations.
(SNIPPED OUT) ...ercise) interstellar fleets, and you're >laying High Guard.
I don't think we can accept one another's assumptions, so the exercise is
pointless..

Well, I'll have to agree there.  You have intelligence information, I don't.
(SNIPPED OUT)    like I'm defending a bunch of virgin Americans instead of a
population that
has gone through five previous wars and has survived.  You're right, I don't
accept it.

But I'd love to play it.  You're right, I think victories are achieved
militarily.

CONCLUSION:  guy wanted to argue, no play a game - but starting fights IS
his game.

SETup.... THIS IS SIMULATION ONLY NOT A LIVE EXERCISE

FFW map.. place all units as described on map according  to fleet doctrine
using ALL FFW RULES.

Opposite side SETSUP on DIFFERENT map. Opponents TRY to find out "what's
there" using ships moving one jump per week

ONLY the Master sees BOTH fleet positions - EVER. Opponents find out by
ships finding each other. Politial rules prevent FLEETS ( 5 ships per
group ) from crossing borders with declarations of war made.

Think you can handle that? If not SHUT UP!! John Strain


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 06:38:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Sun Aug  4 05:38:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for the Atro-genius Types (was: System Gen
 Help)
In-Reply-To: <20020804054809.26103.98485.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentr
 al.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020804141737.00ac52f0@mail.pi.se>

Mr.Berry wrote:

> >Would it be possible for a planet be captured into an
> >L4 or L5 point on a Gas Giant?
>
>Anything is *possible*, but it would be a one in a billion shot.
>
>1. The developing mass of the gas giant will disrupt planetary formation,
>so it would need to be a captured world.
>
>2. It would have to enter the system on the *exact* right course at a
>precise time at the right speed.
>
>3. The planet would need to enter on the plane of the rest of the system,
>and not encounter anything else.
>
>This is incredibly unlikely. Even if it has happened, it's most likely to
>be around an outer gas giant and be a fairly small world.

I'm not so sure - I'm not an astrophysicist - but this depends on 
definitions. If the world comes from some other system I'd agree it is very 
unlikely.

But if the world is captured from a different orbit in the same solar 
system, possibly because of orbital migration, this may be a not too 
uncommon occurrence. The possibility of having gas giants in such 
resonances is investigated in this interesting arXiv preprint by Gregory 
Laughlin and John Chambers titled "Extrasolar Trojans: The Viability and 
Detectability of planets in the 1:1 Resonance"

  http://arXiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0204091

Maybe it would be courteous to provide some sort of description of such 
links to the people on a mailing list not having time to check  all links 
up, I'll recycle a brief recap I myself did somewhere else. If you are not 
interested in planet generation, skip to the next message as this gets 
long-ish.

Laughlin/Chambers think there is a possibility for large planets to be in a 
1:1
resonance. That is, one planet makes one orbit while the other makes one.
We have examples of such resonance among moons around Saturn, and among
Jupiter's large bunch of Trojan asteroids. If we had a space station in
LG-4 or LG-5 it would be in 1:1 resonance with the Moon, and so on.
LG-points are only stable for certain masses. You do not have such around
Pluto/Charon or around most binary stars. However, that is only one type of
1:1 orbit resonance possible - Saturn's moons give more examples of moons
"switching" orbits and such.

What L/C does is identify three types of 1:1 resonances stable for a solar
system lifetime. The first one is a situation where the planets and the
star form an equidistant triangle, or if you so like, one planet is in the
other planet-sun system's LG-4 point. This situation would be stable for
planets where the combined mass is less than 0.03812 of the primary (so it
would work on Jupiter-size worlds), the planets would oscillate in
tadpole-like orbits but in principle they would stay. However, if the
planets were disturbed out of this stability, it is possible to have
another kind of resonance.

In this second type, the planets involved are of roughly equal size move
around in their orbit it about 180 degree separation (one planet on each
side of the star). This is also a stable situation, though there is a bit
of oscillation. In this case, the planets cannot be as massive. For a
sun-type star, the limit is about 0.4 Jupiter masses, so Saturn-size gas
giants could be stable. (This is an example of horseshoe orbits)

The third and more odd type is where two planets have different orbits and
by interaction at exchange orbits, so to speak. Imagine having one planet
with low eccentricity and one with high eccentricity. These worlds would on
the order of tens to hundreds of orbits (shorter for heavier planets) cause
the other world to get gradually more or less eccentricity by exchanging
angular momentum. This situation could be stable for planetary masses up to
about 0.035 of the primary.

The first two examples of 1:1 resonance may be rather common, or so the
authors think. It is possible for planets slightly smaller than Jupiter
that it is possible to form a secondary planet core in the Trojan point, as
lower-mass gas giants do not "clear out" the disc as efficiently. Another
possibility is that the proto-planets collide and create a double core, and
as this double planet migrate inward* in the early solar system the
stability radii decrease, and the planet-planet orbit is instable and the
worlds end up in the first type of resonance, which can be further
disturbed out to the second one. (Or vice versa)

The third type is bound to be more rare, but it could happen in a situation
where three larger planets interact. One is ejected and the remaining two
form a 1:1 angular momentum resonance. One could imagine the odd climate
shift a stable moon around such a gas giant would experience when over a
800-year span the eccentricity changes drastically.

*Another paper suggests the chances are very high jovian worlds migrate
from where they are formed. Either inward or outward. Possibly our Jupiter
represents a minority which formed at the right time to stay just outside
the snow line, and is among the 10-15% of planetary systems having such
jovians. Side note: planets in 1:1 resonance would likely keep the
resonance when in orbital migration.

Enough said.

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 06:39:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Aug  4 05:39:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <memo.572870@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3D4DC91F.22100.769295@localhost>

On 3 Aug 2002 at 13:13, Megan Robertson wrote:

> Mexal (not sniper-trained - in the British Army they only accept right 
> handers... Grrr.)

Ah. That was never a factor in my case - I pissed off the wrong officer 
shortly before the paper-work was to be passed along. :(

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 07:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug  4 06:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
Message-ID: <200208041300.MAV01414@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Azalais Malfoy asks
>What's Richard doing these days?  

He's got a website up - 
http://users.twave.net/b13/
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 07:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sun Aug  4 06:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020804113405.2614.19201.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <001001c23bb4$101d4160$92aa5940@dixienet.com>
Message-ID: <003601c23bb9$68924480$0616bd50@martinjd>

>
> ONLY the Master sees BOTH fleet positions - EVER. Opponents find out by
> ships finding each other. Politial rules prevent FLEETS ( 5 ships per
> group ) from crossing borders with declarations of war made.


We did this in a Napoleonic context. What frustration! Corps commanders were
players, as was army commander (me). Just getting them to send meaningful
information back to me was well-nigh impossible.

At one point, I sent the fifth repetition of an order to attack to my
cavalry corps commander (I could see him from my command position). The
order? "Enemy infantry and guns deploying to your front. Attack them.
Charge! Charge! Charge them NOW! Attack them immediately!. Confirm receipt."
(I was getting cranky)

The confirmation came back "Cannot attack. My cuirassiers are in front of my
lancers. Must redeploy for maximum effectivenesss." (He'd been fiddling with
his deployments for 3 hours game-time and was now under artillery fire)

My final order: "To: General XXXX (Cuirassier division commander, NPC).
Arrest or shoot your corps commander, and attack enemy to your front.
Immediate. Deliver via Corps HQ."

Well, it got him moving.

But seriously, the comm delay and limited intelligence turned a wargame into
a nightmare. A system of courier simulation and player-subordinates who
won't necesssarily obey orders helps too...








From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 07:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun Aug  4 06:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was COTI website)
Message-ID: <F202T3kMUVfNIJWNDIT00000440@hotmail.com>

From: "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>

     "IMO, I don't mind occasional reminders of "what you've got" and where 
it is, I don't mind announcements when you've got something new and 
exciting, I don't mind you asking us for our input on things, and I
don't mind you giving us your input on things. In fact, I appreciate it, and 
hope you keep it up!"


Mr. Reddoch,

     You are, of course, correct sir.
     My lame attempt at humor backfired and was in poor taste.  Yet another 
Whipsnadian faux pas inflicted on the List. (sigh)
     Mea culpa.

     "So, to those that think Martin, Loren, et. al. are "spamming" this 
group I politely offer the suggestion..."Go suck eggs!"

     I've already bought a dozen, will that be enough?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 07:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Scott Ayres)
Date: Sun Aug  4 06:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Movies
In-Reply-To: <102.1921e4ba.2a7dede0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020804135041.73249.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com>

re: GETTYSBURG movie...
  The same crew is putting together at least 2 more
movies in the same vein as GETTYSBURG - based on
original author's son's works.  Not sure if they're
for theater or TV release. Possible '03 release?

re: Movie historical (and book) accuracy
  I hang out with several military history types
(professors and non-profs).  There's a few complaints
with GETTYSBURG's (and others') historical accuracy or
getting the wrong people in the wrong roles.  Some 
can't stand Short's accent, Berringer's false beard,
or this aspect or that.  I enjoyed the movie
regardless.  _Something_ is better than nothing.
  Case in point: PEARL HARBOR.  I took my kids.  They
liked it, I shuddered.  But at a recent 13th b-day
party for my daughter, her friends _wanted_ to see it.
 Who'd of thought that five 13-yr girls would want to
see a "war" movie?  My kids (10 to 16'ish) attend some
of the finest public schools in my state or the
nation, yet have trouble remembering who was who (and
why) in what war.  I am amazed how much of what I grew
up with and thought "important" is now so much chaff
(WW2 was vs. the Axis _not_ the VC, etc.)

  So how does this relate to Traveller?  A recent
thread concerned the movie & book for STARSHIP
TROOPERS.  ST is surely food for the inaccuracy of
book to movie topic, yet it does generate interest in
the genre.  Flipping through the channels a couple
weeks and it was on cable...  I watched the portion
where the troop ship was falling apart after receiving
fire from the planet.  I'd never noticed the external
scenes to the degree I did before: individual people
were falling out (away) of the ship as it ripped
apart.  Don't remember ever seeing that in a movie
before.  I also noticed the proximity of ships to each
other.  I know it's "Hollywood" and _this_ movie,
but... 

OT: has anyone ever concerned the proximity of ships
to each other in close orbit and planetary
bombardment?  How close is too close?  Does a fleet
turn the night sky bright with the multitude of
invading ships?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 08:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 07:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <200208040353580835.54A1D865@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
References: <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
 <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804100230.026b7e58@192.168.0.1>

At 03:53 AM 8/4/2002 -0400, Hunter Gordon wrote:
>On 8/4/2002 at 5:34 PM Timothy Little wrote:
> >I presume that similar things happened between other versions of
> >Traveller rule sets.  Will it happen again with T20?  Will there be a
> >starship design and space combat supplement for that?
>T20 has the starship design rules (along with everything else!) in the 
>main book. They are based directly off of High Guard (v2). There are some 
>minor differences, but ships designed with either system should be readily 
>interchangable.
>There are two sets of combat rules presents, a basic set that is abstract 
>and deals more with the roleplaying than mechanics, and the advance combat 
>system which is much more tactical and uses 2 'megahexes' to plot long 
>range and short range tactical movement.

I'll knock off a couple of ship designs for review by the list when I get 
my copy.
Until then, I have two nice new canes from CaneMasters to keep me amused.
Ok, one's for my dad, but I gotta do some quality check on it first...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Blend 'B', meanwhile, is a PROUD blend, defiant yet petulant...a blend
that grabs you, shakes you by the collar and cries, 'ACCEPT me, damn you,
or turn me away-BUT FOR GOD'S SAKE DON'T POLLUTE ME WITH NON-DAIRY
CREAMER!'" - Tripp Biscuit while coffee tasting.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 09:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 08:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: 40-year-olds
Message-ID: <194.ae860e2.2a7e9fc4@aol.com>

After GDW went OOB, but before the SJ Games offer came up, I tried to get a 
job outside of gaming (technical writing, etc.). Nobody (NOBODY) was much 
interested in hiring me, and a couple of people (one at the employment 
office, one at a job fair I attended) said that "at your age" absent an MBA 
or a really advanced degree in something in demand at the moment, I had 
little hopes of a job where I wasn't asking "You want fries with that?" or 
mopping floors.

I tried getting work outsid of gaming -- nobody wants you if you're 40+. The 
military is not unusual in this regard.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 09:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Rutherford)
Date: Sun Aug  4 08:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: 40-year-olds
In-Reply-To: <194.ae860e2.2a7e9fc4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804112452.012467a8@mail.comcast.net>

At 11:18 AM 8/4/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>After GDW went OOB, but before the SJ Games offer came up, I tried to get a
>job outside of gaming (technical writing, etc.). Nobody (NOBODY) was much
>interested in hiring me, and a couple of people (one at the employment
>office, one at a job fair I attended) said that "at your age" absent an MBA
>or a really advanced degree in something in demand at the moment, I had
>little hopes of a job where I wasn't asking "You want fries with that?" or
>mopping floors.
>
>I tried getting work outsid of gaming -- nobody wants you if you're 40+. The
>military is not unusual in this regard.

It's just as well for the rest of us that you were "forced" retain a job 
*in*side gaming!


Bill Rutherford
worj@comcast.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 10:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 09:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was COTI website)
In-Reply-To: <F202T3kMUVfNIJWNDIT00000440@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804120536.025855a0@192.168.0.1>

At 01:16 PM 8/4/2002 +0000, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
[snip]
>     I've already bought a dozen, will that be enough?

I'd say that the humble apology was enough.
Mr. Whipsnade should watch his cholesterol.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ferret: Chaos with fur, claws and an odd smell.
          http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 10:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Sun Aug  4 09:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Taxes
In-Reply-To: <85.1f38e034.2a7d1f78@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000501c23bd4$ab74f6b0$6501a8c0@Darla>

IMTU the Imperium gets at 10% tariff on the value of all goods shipped
interstellar, plus 10% of the fares charged for interstellar passage.
The Imperium does not levy any direct taxes on individuals.

Payments from planetary governments to the Imperium vary widely, and are
always on a case-by-case basis for each world, codified in the treaty by
which the planet joined (i.e. recognized the authority of) the Imperium
and/or the feudal contract between the planet's ruling noble and the
Emperor.

TWB

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com [mailto:tml-
> admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Flykiller@aol.com
> Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 6:59 AM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Taxes
> 
>  >TCS says its a head count
> 
> Actually, it doesn't.  It says "... ; Cr500 is the amount of naval tax
> paid
> by the average citizen ; ..."
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 10:34:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Sun Aug  4 09:34:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Pilots of the Future (was: warship optimization)
In-Reply-To: <002e01c23ad4$cbcbbd00$1d17bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <000601c23bd4$abfd1270$6501a8c0@Darla>

> 
> Main problem with drones is the ECM/ECCM/Jamming seesaw.
> 
> And control lags over combat distances in space, OC.
> 

That may be true of drones, but unmanned combat aircraft will be
autonomous to a large degree.  I suspect that "video game reflexes" will
not be useful skills in operating them - mission planning will be more
important.

TWB


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
References: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPGEAHEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com> <200208040445160020.54D0CCA6@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3D4D5E9F.4000707@telocity.com>

Hunter Gordon wrote:

>On 8/4/2002 at 4:21 PM Antony Farrell wrote:
>
>>Was that spam and eggs
>>or spam, spam egs and spam?
>>
>
>Ok gotta keep it on topic!
>
>Pardons if this has actually been covered previously.
>
>So does SPAM survive the Rule of Man, the Long Night and into the Third Imperium? If so, is it just a Solomani thing, or have the Vilani and others come to enjoy this uniquely Terran... ummm .... stuff? I'm just picturing a group of adventurers finding an old Rule of Man cache, stockpiled with cans of good old SPAM!
>
>Inquiring minds want to know!
>
Wait! There's good spam, and there's old spam, but there just *ain't* no 
good old spam! <g>

And yes, canned spiced ham has survived  IMTU, at least....along with 
canned hash, canned tuna, canned groat, ad nausium...<g>

Eris


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was COTI website)
References: <F202T3kMUVfNIJWNDIT00000440@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D4D5FBB.9000503@telocity.com>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

> From: "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>
>
>     "IMO, I don't mind occasional reminders of "what you've got" and 
> where it is, I don't mind announcements when you've got something new 
> and exciting, I don't mind you asking us for our input on things, and I
> don't mind you giving us your input on things. In fact, I appreciate 
> it, and hope you keep it up!"
>
>
> Mr. Reddoch,
>
>     You are, of course, correct sir.
>     My lame attempt at humor backfired and was in poor taste.  Yet 
> another Whipsnadian faux pas inflicted on the List. (sigh)
>     Mea culpa.
>
>     "So, to those that think Martin, Loren, et. al. are "spamming" 
> this group I politely offer the suggestion..."Go suck eggs!"
>
>     I've already bought a dozen, will that be enough?
>
>
>     Sincerely,
>     Larsen
>
Why,  of course, Mr. Whipsnade!  But please don't forget the spam. As I 
said spam and eggs, a breakfast treat. <g>

Eris


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:11:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:11:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <m3y9bndi8f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEKFEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>> > That kind of setup might be cheap when it came to starship life
>> > support costs, but I imagine the impact on the soldiers' psyches
>> > would be extreme.
>>
>> Not if they were only asleep during jumps.  "Good morning, we're
>> passing through Regina and the captain decided you should all spend
>> some money there for a few days."  And soldiers won't be spending
>> years on ships anyway--they'll only be there when in transport.
>> Kind of hard to practice armored maneuvers on the mess deck.
>
>No, 'cause they'd still not get the full rest needed.  My
>greatgrandfather and grandfather took well over a month to return to
>the US after WWI & WWII; my father was back in college in 48 or so
>hours after his time in Vietnam.  Granted, that's _some_ rest time,
>but it's not nearly enough.  You don't find as much PTSD in fellows
>who got to slowly make their way back home, adjust to the new reality
>&c.; you find quite a lot in guys who are plucked up from one
>situation and dropped in another.
>

This brings up an interesting point. Does it go the other way too? Most U.S.
soldiers had a good month between the time they left CONUS and the time they
hit the lines in Europe, even during the most active time of the war. Today
soldiers in Georgia can be in a war zone in less than 48 hours. Does this
also contribute to PTSD? How does it effect their combat readiness.

ObTrav: This would not be a problem for interstellar troops, since minimum
travel time is a week. Maximum travel time could be much higher. (Which is
why I especially have a problem with GT designs which use bunkrooms.) Could
a really large troop transport incorporate a habitat module to use as a
training area? It strikes me that a holoventure module might work really
well for battledress units and vehicle drivers (tank, fighter, etc.) but
that regular troops will need more room to practice small unit tactics,
unless the holoventure studios work as good as ST holodecks.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
 <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]>

At 4:14 AM -0400 8/4/02, hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>Hello Tim,
>   The missile damage rules in GURPS TRAVELLER make missile craft that much
>   more deadly than they were in any other TRAVELLER incarnation.  I
>   personally do not use the GURPS STARSHIP combat rules as presented, nor
>   am I pleased with rendition of the Meson weapons in the GURPS TRAVELLER
>   rule set.  Having said that however, I would be pleased to discuss the
>   topic matter you proposed...

Missiles are very damaging.  However, they also can be intercepted. 
The utility of missiles depends on how many missiles you have vs how 
much point defense you foe has.  I think, in the setting, there is 
the usual game of trying to get you measures to overcome the foes 
countermeasures.  However, dropping missiles entirely, going heaving 
into point defense, and  using other weapons for a kill can be a 
viable route.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for the Atro-genius Types (was: System Gen
 Help)
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020804141737.00ac52f0@mail.pi.se>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020804141737.00ac52f0@mail.pi.se>
Message-ID: <p04330101b97312dbe956@[198.123.22.192]>

Note: you don't come in from out of the solar system and drop into an 
orbit.  To capture _any_ body from outside the solar system requires 
interactions with other bodies (otherwise the velocity you built up 
comeing in just pushes you right back out again).  If you sling shot 
around something and loose velocity, you will settle into some sort 
of orbit (barring collisions).  However, this orbit will be perturbed 
over time and generally settle into some smaller subset of stable 
orbits.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <02080313391901.00601@linux>

>  >> How serious is the trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took place
>  >> because the small island of England was not self-sufficient in either
>  >> agricultural or industrial matters, but I don't think this situation
>  >> will arise on many _planets_.  
>
>
>cough cough
	How many dinky airless rockballs with large populations do the world 
generation rules permit? 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:36:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:36:20 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
In-Reply-To: <B9701696.6773B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B9701696.6773B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <02080313573002.00601@linux>

>
> Just to bring this back to Traveller,  how do the Imperium portray it's
> adversaries?  We can probably guess that the Solomani do a bit of
> dehumanizing propaganda against their Imperial foe.  How does the Imperium
> portray the Zhodani and Solomani to it's citizenry.  And is there an
> Imperial Ministry for Propaganda?

	I seem to recall an article in the old JTAS about racial epithets for the 
5th Frontier War. It was printed at about the time of FFW release. So, yes, 
racial slurs for the buzzheads and doggies and pinkies...etc. can be 
considered canon. 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:37:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:37:34 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CF7@USCHM203>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CF7@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <02080314013103.00601@linux>

On Friday 02 August 2002 01:43 pm, you wrote:
> >The Germans, and
> >
>  >particularly the Japanese were horribly dehumanized.  We made our enemies
>  >into monsters so then it was OK to exterminate them.
>
> If there was any dehumanizing of the Germans and Japanese, they did it
> themselves through their own brutality.
> _______________________________________________
>	Project 741 tested biological warfare on helpless POW's (Americans)
The US Government tested/tests biological agents on its own citizens.

	My point is that in war,...all sides are capable of being monstrous bastards.
Part of propaganda's job is to make the 'good guys' look good.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:38:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:38:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com>
References: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com>
Message-ID: <02080314301904.00601@linux>

> That's all local.  If a system is really strapped, I'd send some fleet
> escorts to help out.  War is not always imminent, after all.  Too, while
> the Imperium cares about some weapons, why should it care about the
> smuggling of anything else?  "Admiral!  Smugglers are transporting illegal
> cargos of cigarettes to Zivije!"  "Ensign, go there immediately.  Buy me a
> few packs."
>
 I would think the Imperium would frown on many black market activities.
It avoids tribute to Emperor.
It undermines legitimate corporate profits and business practices.	
	As the Emperor is an active share-holder in many corporations and 
subsidiaries, it bites into his take directly. Not to mention the large 
amount of influence that mega-corps hold at all politiccal levels, they would 
insist even at a local level that the government put a stop to smuggling.
	Governments exist to ensure stable trade.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <fc.1bc430d6.2a7d06b7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEKGEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
 >big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.

I think that we had a long thread on this subject last year. One of the
things suggested was the use of X-ray Laser det mines. I posted a design
which allow either a ship or remote sensor platform to detonate the mines
when a ship came within range. The mines consisted of a nuclear warhead that
created a single pulse Xaser. This gave them the necessary range, a single
10,000 mile GURPS Traveller hex, to be effective weapons. Some one else
posted a TNE design for the same thing.

As I recall they were not that easy to find but would have been a much
bigger challenge to merchant and patrol craft than to capital ships. As with
all such weapons their greatest effect was to require opposing ships to be
looking for them and perhaps avoid them.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <ca.f8487da.2a7e2802@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020804105439.349f0cc8@pop.mindspring.com>

At 02:47 AM 8/4/2002 EDT, you wrote:
> >Cool.  And in the same time, you have the Zhos coming from everywhere (the
> >Consulate is much smaller, y'know) and the Zho's destroying the ares you
> >were supposed to be defending!  If you are lucky, you'll be killed in
> >battle, and won't be hung for gross incompetence.
> >
> >Mission is everything.  If you have been attacked, your first duty as an
> >Imperial officer is to defend the state.  Taking the war to the enemy's
> >home is a political decision.
>
>It seems I am to be the passive blind recipient of whatever comes my way, 
>while my opponent is free to act with clear vision.  You're right.  I'd
>lose.

Not if you keep your mission in mind.  Defense of the Imperium.  Put battle
fleets around critical systems like Jewell and Regina.  Have cruiser
squadrons covering approaches like those I detailed in my "Jewell Cluster"
plan.  You can take the offensive, but only after you have secured you own
territory from attack.  Hell, send raiders into Zho forward bases like
Cipango and Farreach. They won't do much real damage, but it will tie down
some of his reinforcements to rear defense. A squadron of 3,000 dton
destroyers can raise merry havoc against an orbital port.

An important part of defense is divining enemy intentions.  Take my Jewell
gambit.  You will have scouts as well, and looking at my moves, it will
soon become obvious that my main goal is Jewell itself.  Patience is the
Admiral's friend.  Look for your chance to exploit the enemy strategy to
your own ends.  Hassle him.  Take out outposts like Farreach, which secures
Efate and the Regina frontier along with giving you another axis of attack.
 Jewell is a high-pop world, and can hold out *for a time.*  In this case,
you aren't sacrificing worlds in order to seek out a decisive fleet
engagement; you are making strategic decisions that save the majority of
the important worlds of the sector.

Gather your reinforcements, then strike.  When you do attack, it must be an
overwhelming blow to the enemy.  Additional reinforcements are too far away
to make a difference. Go in with at least a 3:1 advantage in both tonnage
and firepower.  Try to make the engagement come at Jewell.  This way, you
will be able to stir up the anger and resolve of your forces with images of
a billion people under the yoke of the mind-raping scum.  This will be a
factor.  

After Jewell, assuming you win, do you go further?  Not unless Duke Norris
tells you to do so.  You, Admiral, are an instrument of policy.  Policy is
made by the bosses.  Let's say that Norris ate his Wheaties this morning.
You now face the opposite problem, planning an invasion.  The first thing
you do is define the exact goals of the mission: what are the exact
objectives.

Let's define it this way: remove the Zhodani from the Spinward Marches.
Your objective is obviously going to be Chronor.  Plan from there.  Main
attack, supporting attack, screening elements, ground troops.  With Chronor
neutralized, the other worlds in Jewell and Querion are isolated and can be
picked off one by one at your leisure, either through military action or
diplomatic efforts.

The point I, and the others are trying to make is that sub-battleship ships
serve a purpose.  A fleet needs ships it can spare for escort duty,
garrisoning small systems, feints, minor attacks.. every battleship not
built pays for a handful of cruisers or dozens of frigate/destroyer sized
ships.  Think versatility.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Embrace Fascism.    The uniforms look cool


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:29:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:29:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Check Your Landgrabs!
In-Reply-To: <1ad.629357b.2a7e2295@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020804105844.353f9bfc@pop.mindspring.com>

At 02:24 AM 8/4/2002 EDT, you wrote:
>What is the landgrab?

Claim a world in one of the published settings.  Detail the hell out of it.
Use any system you like. Publish the results here for everyone to admire.
Or put it up on the web, and post the link here for everyone to click.

Started during a hideously off-topic period of the TML's history by some
weirdo with a thing for penguins.  We've had a pretty good time with it.
--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                   - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:30:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:30:12 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was  COTI website)
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPGEAHEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <20020804060231.5D9A02793A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020804110019.353f3a82@pop.mindspring.com>

At 04:21 PM 8/4/2002 +0800, you wrote:
>Was that spam and eggs
>or spam, spam egs and spam?

Spam spam spam spam spam spam spam lovely spam, wonderful spam...
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:31:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:31:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Paging Martin Dougherty
In-Reply-To: <008101c23b82$ff35d320$8a0fbd50@martinjd>
References: <20020804013343.15643.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020804110258.353f8dd6@pop.mindspring.com>

At 07:48 AM 8/4/2002 +0100, you wrote:

>Uhh? It Morning. Me Brain-Slow. Remind What Information?
>Me Find Breakfast Cereal Now. Kill And Eat Cereal. Cereal Good.

Eek! A cereal killer loose in the TML!
-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of
limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:32:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:32:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <10.22d0c4c9.2a7e1fae@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020804111013.353f8596@pop.mindspring.com>

At 02:11 AM 8/4/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>But I'd love to play it.  You're right, I think victories are achieved 
>militarily.

Some of the time.  But you think tactically, while we are think strategically.

"Amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics."
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Death is an experience best avoided, as it makes
reliable internet access difficult to obtain.
                       - Xaonon, in alt.atheism

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:33:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:33:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
In-Reply-To: <200208040317.MAB01365@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020804111806.2cb706d8@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:17 PM 8/3/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>(Doug says, 'Who is Richard Tucholka?' )

Doug has everything Tri-Tac every published, he thinks, and an autographed
copy of "Stalking the Night Fantastic", thank you very much  :)
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:34:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:34:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <003601c23bb9$68924480$0616bd50@martinjd>
References: <20020804113405.2614.19201.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <001001c23bb4$101d4160$92aa5940@dixienet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020804112446.2cb71a74@pop.mindspring.com>

At 02:17 PM 8/4/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>
> ONLY the Master sees BOTH fleet positions - EVER. Opponents find out by
> ships finding each other. Politial rules prevent FLEETS ( 5 ships per
> group ) from crossing borders with declarations of war made.

I played in a double-blind 5FW game as the Zhodani commander.  We had a
bunch of house rules, and each fleet had a serperate Admiral.  It took
months, but I followed the basic attack plan I outlined in my other post.

War in the Third Imperium is a game of hide & seek.  Intelligence is
everything.  Planning is everything else.  I had a good plan, and the
"staff understood their roles, and how much discretion they had inside
their missions.  Third Assault Fleet's commander was decorated for his
audacious feints that drew four Imperial fleets away from relieving Jewell
and chasing him all over Lunion and Glisten.

When it was over, the Jewell cluster had been brought into the fold of
civilization.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry      gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"Well, thanks to the Internet, I'm now bored
 with sex." - Fry, Futurama

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:36:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:36:34 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Baboon Class Missile Frigate CREWS
Message-ID: <200208041828.g74ISow12329@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Flykiller@aol.com
>Subject: [TML] RE: Baboon Class Missile Frigate CREWS
...
>I think the big problem with this kind of boat is not their inefficiency, but 
>their crews.  It would be hard enough to get competent and willing captains, 
>pilots, and engineers with the necessary decades of experience for a few 
>heavily armed and armored capital ships that have adequate living space and 
>support cargo.  Finding thousands of deployable captains, pilots, and 
>engineers who would be willing to live and fight in barely-adequate 
>Volkswagens (as it were) would be a major problem.  I think this difficulty 
>should be reflected in their skill levels.  I know TCS specifically and 
>categorically states otherwise, but I think this issue is just too big and 
>reasonable to so breezily ignore it.

  I agree that it's a major issue, although the demographics and
economy of the 3I/OTU make it not critical for warship fleets.
The fighter swarm forces will have problems - the question might
be how good the commanders for any light warships will be?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Movies
Message-ID: <1a2.65f889d.2a7ed1b3@aol.com>

>  I hang out with several military history types
>(professors and non-profs).  There's a few complaints
>with GETTYSBURG's (and others') historical accuracy or
>getting the wrong people in the wrong roles.  Some 
>can't stand Short's accent, Berringer's false beard,
>or this aspect or that.  I enjoyed the movie

>regardless. 

It is as close as Hollywood ever gets (and frankly, it is as close as we can 
ever hope to get). Movies ALWAYS compress events, eliminate characters, and 
re-arrange things in the name of drama. But then again, so did the novel (THE 
KILLER ANGELS) hat the movie was based on. 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
Message-ID: <3D4D776E.B78FF865@mail.cswnet.com>

>Depart now and you forever separate 
>yourselves from the vital gaming legacies of James Dunnigan, 
>Steve Jackson, Gary Gygax, Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank 
>Chadwick, Andrew Keith, William Keith, John Harshman, 
>Professor Barker, and Richard Tucholka.

Professor Barker {?} info please.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for the Atro-genius Types (was: System Gen     Help)
In-Reply-To: <p04330101b97312dbe956@[198.123.22.192]>
Message-ID: <20020804190454.32509.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

So the answer is that, while unlikely, it is possible.

Makes for an interesting detail, and I kinda like it.

Thanks for the help everyone.

Paul


--- "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> Note: you don't come in from out of the solar system
> and drop into an 
> orbit.  To capture _any_ body from outside the solar
> system requires 
> interactions with other bodies (otherwise the
> velocity you built up 
> comeing in just pushes you right back out again). 
> If you sling shot 
> around something and loose velocity, you will settle
> into some sort 
> of orbit (barring collisions).  However, this orbit
> will be perturbed 
> over time and generally settle into some smaller
> subset of stable 
> orbits.
> -- 
> ______________________________
> summers@alum.mit.edu
> (This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in
> Boston, but I'm in California.)
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:06:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:06:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
Message-ID: <181.c196c70.2a7ed4f5@aol.com>

MJ Dougherty writes:

>> > Why do you want fighters to be more effective?
>>
>> So that they can have an outside possibility of damaging Capital ships
>at
>> high TL
>
>And again, why do you want this? Barring me swallowing some and suffering
>some strange kind of poisoning, no amount of flies can beat me in a straight
>fight. My feeling is that fighters are good for screening and keeping
>merchies in line. Big ships are for killing big ships.

"Screening?"  If, by rule and design, fighters can't affect anything much 
more than 100 times their size, AND can't get sufficient squadron or fleet 
level coordination to act as a coherent battery, then they have no chance of 
acting in a screening role *either*, since they won't have sufficient rating 
to affect passing missile barrages and can't be effectively put in a place to 
intercept those missile even if they *could* stop any.

Allowing for whole squadrons to have that outside chance *at range* means the 
opponent has to respond to them with escorts or fighters of their own, which, 
of course, leads to mounting of direct-fire weapons on the fighters as well. 
If you are only using "fighters" as extensions of your sensor-space, the way 
they are used and fielded changes completely. The first change will be that 
no one carries squadrons into war, only raids. Capital ships will carry only 
enough to use as "sensor drones", and no ship will likely be designed with 
massive rapid-launch capabilities (ie. launch tubes).
It's simple, really. If fighters aren't a threat in a line battle, then your 
opponent will have never built his own after seeing yours.

As a TNE fan, Martin, you should be very familiar with this argument, because 
this is *exactly* the line of thought that lead to the big det-laser missiles 
of TNE, and a combat system that would make such torps useful.

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Movies
In-Reply-To: <1a2.65f889d.2a7ed1b3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B972CA46.67D2A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/4/02 11:51 AM, GDWGAMES@aol.com at GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

>> I hang out with several military history types
>> (professors and non-profs).  There's a few complaints
>> with GETTYSBURG's (and others') historical accuracy or
>> getting the wrong people in the wrong roles.  Some
>> can't stand Short's accent, Berringer's false beard,
>> or this aspect or that.  I enjoyed the movie
> 
>> regardless. 
> 
> It is as close as Hollywood ever gets (and frankly, it is as close as we can
> ever hope to get). Movies ALWAYS compress events, eliminate characters, and
> re-arrange things in the name of drama. But then again, so did the novel (THE
> KILLER ANGELS) hat the movie was based on.


More info on the next Ron Maxwell film "Gods and Generals" can be found at
the web site http://www.godsandgenerals.com/

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Check Your Landgrabs!
Message-ID: <3D4D7CCE.FE3EF458@mail.cswnet.com>

Flykiller asks;
>What is the landgrab?

Oh, my good man, a landgrab is one of the most beautiful things in all
the universe. I highly recomend building one for yourself today!
For more info, go to this sight:

http://www.downport.com/landgrab/

Now, if I can put my Arba Real Estate hat on...

There are some good open frontier systems just waiting to be snatched up
in the Lunion and Vilis subsectors; Adabicci [has a class A port],
Rabwhar [has a scout base and a megacorps lab]. Over in Vilis, Vilis
itself hasn't been grabbed, plus Choleosti and Margesi. 

Get'em while there hot!

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:19:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:19:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
In-Reply-To: <3D4D776E.B78FF865@mail.cswnet.com>
References: <3D4D776E.B78FF865@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <kbvqkus21i0n0h2fmi9s0sq6fh7j9jnuj8@4ax.com>

On Sun, 04 Aug 2002 13:50:22 -0500, Roseberry
<rosebee@mail.cswnet.com> wrote:

>>Depart now and you forever separate=20
>>yourselves from the vital gaming legacies of James Dunnigan,=20
>>Steve Jackson, Gary Gygax, Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank=20
>>Chadwick, Andrew Keith, William Keith, John Harshman,=20
>>Professor Barker, and Richard Tucholka.
>
>Professor Barker {?} info please.

Empire of the Petal Throne, IIRC.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was  COTI website)
Message-ID: <3D4D7DDB.3B73E32A@mail.cswnet.com>

<snippaged>
>>Was that spam and eggs
>>or spam, spam egs and spam?

>Spam spam spam spam spam spam spam lovely spam, wonderful spam...

"Bloody Vikings!"

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Paging Martin Dougherty
Message-ID: <3D4D7EA9.6E1529D3@mail.cswnet.com>

>snippaged<
>>Uhh? It Morning. Me Brain-Slow. Remind What Information?
>>Me Find Breakfast Cereal Now. Kill And Eat Cereal. Cereal Good.

>Eek! A cereal killer loose in the TML!

Obviously an eater of NIETZCHE POPS, The Uber Breakfast!
I prefer Space Flakes (tm) myself.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
In-Reply-To: <3D4D776E.B78FF865@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEKJEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>Depart now and you forever separate
>>yourselves from the vital gaming legacies of James Dunnigan,
>>Steve Jackson, Gary Gygax, Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank
>>Chadwick, Andrew Keith, William Keith, John Harshman,
>>Professor Barker, and Richard Tucholka.
>
>Professor Barker {?} info please.
>
>Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>
Why the creator of "Empire of the Petal Throne" possibly the most complex
game world ever created, certainly one of the most complex not based on
Western mythology/ideology. (In this case I would count Traveller as based
on Western mythology since it is based on the classic science fiction of the
golden era, which is certainly a western literary mythology.)


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:30:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:30:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Paging Martin Dougherty
Message-ID: <memo.598862@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <3D4D7EA9.6E1529D3@mail.cswnet.com>
> Obviously an eater of NIETZCHE POPS, The Uber Breakfast!
> I prefer Space Flakes (tm) myself.

I go for Cthulhu-hoops every time :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:36:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:36:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Paging Martin Dougherty
In-Reply-To: <memo.598862@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020804193546.5A5D02793A@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/04/02 at 08:28 PM,  mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan
Robertson) said:

>In-Reply-To: <3D4D7EA9.6E1529D3@mail.cswnet.com>
>> Obviously an eater of NIETZCHE POPS, The Uber Breakfast!
>> I prefer Space Flakes (tm) myself.

>I go for Cthulhu-hoops every time :-)

I think that's marketed as Captain Cthulhu on this side of the pond.
;->

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:40:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:40:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
In-Reply-To: <3D4D776E.B78FF865@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <20020804193937.669AD2793A@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/04/02 at 01:50 PM,  Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com> said:

>>Depart now and you forever separate 
>>yourselves from the vital gaming legacies of James Dunnigan, 
>>Steve Jackson, Gary Gygax, Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank 
>>Chadwick, Andrew Keith, William Keith, John Harshman, 
>>Professor Barker, and Richard Tucholka.

>Professor Barker {?} info please.

Professor Barker created the "Empire of the Petal Throne" setting as a
youth, and has been adding to it for low these many years. The only
fantasy I ever played (as opposed to GMing) in, until recently, was an
EotPT game.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: meduim navies
Message-ID: <3D4D82E0.C26DA8F1@mail.cswnet.com>

Well, I just got done last night with Regina subsector, and came up with
a problem with the TL6- worlds. Basically, using the mercenary rule from
small navies just makes these worlds have massive merc navies [in Enopes
case, almost a Merc TCS]. So, until I can think up
a better way to tweak TL6- worlds, I'm just going to remove them
entirely. They'll still be counted for the 30% Imperial Navy tax, but
the rest of their budget won't be used. This I think gets it close to
the way it is in the FFW game. 

As for tweaking TL6- worlds, when I get done posting this I'm going to
go dig out the TNE Path of Tears supplement and see if that might be
usefull. I dunno.

I'll post up tax returns for Regina and Lanth, plus repost Lunion with
the removed TL6- worlds, latter tonight probably.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
Message-ID: <197.adccb8b.2a7edf13@aol.com>

Flykiller writes:

> >All I am doing is letting Fighters act like Turrets. If several turrets
>can
> >concentrate their fire to increase their effectiveness, why can't several
> >fighters?
>
>You could extend this same concept to spinal mount vessels.
>

You could, but you'd be inventing extensions to the charts to do so (as in, 
what is the rating of a pair of Meson-T's?), while the concept of grouping 
turrets is already part of the game and is incorporated into the charts.  
From a RL standpoint, grouping spinal fire also requires that you get several 
*large* ships to all point at one target long enough to acquire, aim, and 
fire.  Missiles aim themselves, and laser turrets (to carry the fighters as 
battery concept to defense) are articulated and thus also aimable without 
involving the engines.

In case you are wondering, this is my long way of saying "no, you can't".

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 14:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 13:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Failing planets
Message-ID: <98.29e35cc8.2a7ee374@aol.com>

Flykiller writes:

> >If planets are so self sufficient, then why does TNE describe planets
> >failing because they were cut off from interstellar trade?
>
>Don't know.  Doesn't make much sense to me.  I can see it happening here
>and there of course, but not en masse.  TNE may state it, but that's not 
>necessarily a reason to just swallow it.

Which just tells me you haven't read TNE. Not to worry, it's a common sin on 
this list.

It is based on the supposition that listed TL is "locally producable and 
maintainable" and the observation (made here many times) that many worlds 
don't seem to make sense in terms of environment and TL match (type B 
atmosphere and TL2, for example). TNE explained these cases as being 
supported by trade. If the trade dries up, and the world can't maintain the 
equipment that keeps it alive, eventually the world dies.  Add Virus and the 
after-effects of a 24-year long war that went into scorched earth tactics for 
the last five, and planets that *had* sufficient TL before may no longer. All 
it takes is that Virus-infected system to kill all the on-hand spares and 
blow up the factory, starport, and internal delivery systems (not uncommon 
for a Virus strike), and your life-support systems are dead in a few days. If 
Mr. Virus also sealed all the doors out of your arcology and turns the 
security systems on anyone who looks organized, then even a green and 
pleasant world can turn into a tomb.

Note that, for all the Virus-haters out there, the Black War and plain old 
human panic/stupidity can accomplish much the same results, often just as 
quickly.

I'm not going to take this further right now, as it drags in many of the TMLs 
classic battles, including the nature of Tech Level, commerce models, Virus, 
and the randomness of UWPs.

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 14:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 13:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
Message-ID: <137.122edd2d.2a7ee774@aol.com>

Flykiller writes:

> >Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
> >big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.
>
>What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other sensor systems
>you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?
>

Not the point. In space, mines are *terrain*, not ambushers.  Got an enemy 
force vectoring your way? Drop mines behind you in an area you think it 
likely he *has* to fly through. If he sees the mines, he may break off early 
enough to miss them, giving you either an escape option or (if properly 
deployed) a positional advantage for returning the attack.

What really affects mines is the same factor that affects fighters: will they 
be big enough to have *any* effect, even if they score a hit?

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 14:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug  4 13:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
Message-ID: <200208042039.MBL00293@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Roseberry asks
>Professor Barker {?} info please.

Empire of the Petal Throne...
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 15:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Aug  4 14:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
In-Reply-To: <137.122edd2d.2a7ee774@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B972E6BF.67D85%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/4/02 1:24 PM, GypsyComet@aol.com at GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:

> Not the point. In space, mines are *terrain*, not ambushers.  Got an enemy
> force vectoring your way? Drop mines behind you in an area you think it
> likely he *has* to fly through. If he sees the mines, he may break off early
> enough to miss them, giving you either an escape option or (if properly
> deployed) a positional advantage for returning the attack.

And also possibly making his sensors go active.  If the mines are stealthy
enough, he won't be able to detect them with passive sensors.
> 
> What really affects mines is the same factor that affects fighters: will they
> be big enough to have *any* effect, even if they score a hit?

That is the question.  But mines will be far cheaper than fighters.  No life
support, rudimentary controls, simple drive systems.  Probably fear cheaper.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 15:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Asbury)
Date: Sun Aug  4 14:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Professor Barker??
References: <20020804190005.1656.32029.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000601c23c02$0d81b280$08984c51@oemcomputer>

>>Depart now and you forever separate
>>yourselves from the vital gaming legacies of James Dunnigan,
>>Steve Jackson, Gary Gygax, Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank
>>Chadwick, Andrew Keith, William Keith, John Harshman,
>>Professor Barker, and Richard Tucholka.
>
>Professor Barker {?} info please.
>
>Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

Empire of the Petal Throne!

It was a early D&D derivative by the above mentioned prof.

It had a very oriental feel with him having a background in linguistics (and
it counted as sci-fi due to the strange background history... Humans and
other aliens try to terraform a planet, much to the anoyance of it
inhabitants, entire solar system disappears into a void, leaving everybody
up the creak, a few thousand years regression (theres no iron on planet!)
and alternate cultural development  later and enter the PCs.

It spawn numerous expansions, and two  novels bu M.A.R. Barker himself.

Major prob with this world? pronouncing the words! He did a Tolkien and
created his own languages and scripts.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 16:00:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug  4 15:00:34 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com> <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net> <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020805075953.A24737@freeman.little-possums.net>

hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> Hello Tim,
>   The missile damage rules in GURPS TRAVELLER make missile craft that much
>   more deadly than they were in any other TRAVELLER incarnation.

Oh.  Here was I thinking that the missiles were suboptimal and could
have been designed better and cheaper.  For example, it is trivial to
design a missile turret that can launch and control 20 missiles per
combat turn, each costing less than half as much with better
acceleration and damage.

If they are already vastly better than in previous Travelelr versions,
there's not really much point I guess. :-/



>  I personally do not use the GURPS STARSHIP combat rules as
>  presented,

Do you use something close, or a drastic re-write?  (Or not at all?)


> nor am I pleased with rendition of the Meson weapons in the GURPS
> TRAVELLER rule set.

They do look a little icky to me too.  What bothers you most?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 16:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug  4 15:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com> <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net> <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]>
Message-ID: <20020805081803.B24737@freeman.little-possums.net>

David P. Summers wrote:
> Missiles are very damaging.  However, they also can be intercepted.
> The utility of missiles depends on how many missiles you have vs how
> much point defense you foe has.

Yes, I'd noticed that too.  In particular, the existing missiles and
launchers can be greatly upgraded to achieve much better results
against point defense for rather little cost.  However, given other
comments it looks like doing so would take it even further away from
previous versions of Traveller. :-/


> However, dropping missiles entirely, going heaving into point
> defense, and using other weapons for a kill can be a viable route.

It seems that would be a good idea if your ship needs to spend a long
time away from resupply, but not good for actual battle capability.
Using the full Vehicles rules, I was unable to design a craft that
could mount enough point defense weapons to last more than a round or
two.

The other problem I noted is the short range of direct-fire weapons.
None of the presented beams could touch anything beyond 30 hexes.
Missiles (even the wimpy predesigned ones) can hit from 50 or so
hexes.

Of course, missiles have to be replaced -- beam weapons fire forever.
Were these factors not present in previous Traveller incarnations?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 16:20:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ludwig)
Date: Sun Aug  4 15:20:04 2002
Subject: [TML] prejudice (OT)
In-Reply-To: <55.2b3ad1ac.2a7dc32f@aol.com>
References: <55.2b3ad1ac.2a7dc32f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020804181934.4890b45c.mariachi@mac.com>

On Sat, 3 Aug 2002 19:37:19 EDT
Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

[...]
> The military rejects enlistment of those 32 and older (if I recall 
> correctly)
[...]

35 and older in the Navy.  IRL, that is.  Dunno about Traveller.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 16:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug  4 15:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <02080313391901.00601@linux>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux>
Message-ID: <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net>

richard honeycutt wrote:
> 	How many dinky airless rockballs with large populations do the
> world generation rules permit?

What does that matter?  They obviously don't need trade for survival.
It's not like they'll starve if you isolate them.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 16:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug  4 15:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEKGEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <fc.1bc430d6.2a7d06b7@aol.com> <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEKGEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20020805082530.D24737@freeman.little-possums.net>

Terry Carlino wrote:
> This gave them the necessary range, a single 10,000 mile GURPS
> Traveller hex, to be effective weapons.

Ah, that explains it.  You're using a two-dimensional map.  Yes, if
you can restrict spacecraft to move in a plane, then I agree that
space mines can be effective.  (But even then, only if you don't use
the GURPS Traveller space combat system)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 16:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Sun Aug  4 15:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Professor Barker??
In-Reply-To: <000601c23c02$0d81b280$08984c51@oemcomputer>
References: <20020804190005.1656.32029.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020804172747.0469acb0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

For more detail, check out:

www.tekumel.com

Cheers!  (or Ngangmuru! if you wish)

At 10:58 PM 8/4/02 +0100, you wrote:

> >>Depart now and you forever separate
> >>yourselves from the vital gaming legacies of James Dunnigan,
> >>Steve Jackson, Gary Gygax, Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank
> >>Chadwick, Andrew Keith, William Keith, John Harshman,
> >>Professor Barker, and Richard Tucholka.
> >
> >Professor Barker {?} info please.
> >
> >Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
>
>Empire of the Petal Throne!
>
>It was a early D&D derivative by the above mentioned prof.
>
>It had a very oriental feel with him having a background in linguistics (and
>it counted as sci-fi due to the strange background history... Humans and
>other aliens try to terraform a planet, much to the anoyance of it
>inhabitants, entire solar system disappears into a void, leaving everybody
>up the creak, a few thousand years regression (theres no iron on planet!)
>and alternate cultural development  later and enter the PCs.
>
>It spawn numerous expansions, and two  novels bu M.A.R. Barker himself.
>
>Major prob with this world? pronouncing the words! He did a Tolkien and
>created his own languages and scripts.
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 17:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Aug  4 16:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
In-Reply-To: <B972E6BF.67D85%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <137.122edd2d.2a7ee774@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4E5E7E.26225.7DEF71@localhost>

On 4 Aug 2002 at 14:12, Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 8/4/02 1:24 PM, GypsyComet@aol.com at GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:
> 
> > Not the point. In space, mines are *terrain*, not ambushers.  Got an enemy
> > force vectoring your way? Drop mines behind you in an area you think it
> > likely he *has* to fly through. If he sees the mines, he may break off early
> > enough to miss them, giving you either an escape option or (if properly
> > deployed) a positional advantage for returning the attack.
> 
> And also possibly making his sensors go active.  If the mines are stealthy
> enough, he won't be able to detect them with passive sensors.
> > 
> > What really affects mines is the same factor that affects fighters: will they
> > be big enough to have *any* effect, even if they score a hit?
> 
> That is the question.  But mines will be far cheaper than fighters.  No life
> support, rudimentary controls, simple drive systems.  Probably fear cheaper.

Here's a cheap TL15 mine, made using FF&S1 + Vampire Fleets (for the 
robot brain). I assume that for a weapon to be fully independent it 
must have a robot brain with the requisite skills (in this case Sensers 
and Gunnery).

TL Guidance Vol Mass AV MCr   G-Turns Warhead Hits Damage  Range Comm 
15 Full-Ind 1   1.18 3  1.527 3/3     50kt    1D6  1/14-43 0     10L

Sensor Signatures     Asset
1P     	+4/+3/+4/+3/+1 4/8

Because it has the warhead's built-in laser receiver it can also be 
used as a low-acceleration controlled missile. It has 3 G-turns of 
acceleration because that was the smallest practical rocket available 
and it has to have some manoeuvrability to be able to get into 
detonation range of a target. It would probably be programmed to attack 
any enemy vessel that came within 3 hexes (90,000km) of it and that it 
could get a lock on.

The biggest weakness is that power for the passive sensor, EMM system 
and brain is only good for 12 hours. Also it's surprsingly expensive 
(it costs more than a standard TL15 space combat missile), with most of 
the extra cost coming from the sensor.

Because it is only 1 m^3 in volume it can be carried in very large 
amounts (this is 1/7th the volume of a standard TNE space combat 
missile), and deployed in large numbers.

And for those who have money to burn:

TL Guidance Vol Mass AV MCr   G-Turns Warhead Hits Damage  Range Comm
15 Full-Ind 7   7.32 3  5.232 4/4     500ktx2 2D6  1/25-79 0     10L

Sensor Signatures     Asset
2P     	+4/+3/+4/+3/+1 6/16

Probably way too expensive for most people, but it should ruin the day 
of any smaller vessel that runs into a field of them.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 17:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 16:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <02080313391901.00601@linux>
 <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
 <02080313391901.00601@linux>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804192145.024cac00@192.168.0.1>

At 08:19 AM 8/5/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>richard honeycutt wrote:
> >       How many dinky airless rockballs with large populations do the
> > world generation rules permit?
>What does that matter?  They obviously don't need trade for survival.
>It's not like they'll starve if you isolate them.

On what do you base that on?


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 17:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sun Aug  4 16:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
References: <181.c196c70.2a7ed4f5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <006001c23c11$6fd780e0$c20fbd50@martinjd>

>
> "Screening?"  If, by rule and design, fighters can't affect anything much
> more than 100 times their size, AND can't get sufficient squadron or fleet
> level coordination to act as a coherent battery, then they have no chance
of
> acting in a screening role *either*, since they won't have sufficient
rating
> to affect passing missile barrages and can't be effectively put in a place
to
> intercept those missile even if they *could* stop any.

Well, it's possible to build an over-weaponed "strike boat" around a
powerful weapon such as a plasma gun. Lots of hurting power for its size and
cost. Fighters can screen vs such attacks. They can act as standoff sensor
and patrol platforms. And they SHOULD be able to kill incoming missiles as
area defense weapons. If they can't then THAT is a rule change that i agree
should be made.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 17:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sun Aug  4 16:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Pilots of the Future (was: warship optimization)
References: <000601c23bd4$abfd1270$6501a8c0@Darla>
Message-ID: <00a201c23c12$53cb3760$c20fbd50@martinjd>

>
> >
> > Main problem with drones is the ECM/ECCM/Jamming seesaw.
> >
> > And control lags over combat distances in space, OC.
> >
>
> That may be true of drones, but unmanned combat aircraft will be
> autonomous to a large degree.  I suspect that "video game reflexes" will
> not be useful skills in operating them - mission planning will be more
> important.

That makes sense. In fact, I wrote something to that effect in my PGW
report.
And then forgot about it. Pure genius.

Me go throw spears at bison now...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 17:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 16:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
Message-ID: <OF622B6C9A.381C2DCD-ONCA256C0B.008138BC@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Martin (I think) wrote:
>>And again, why do you want this? Barring me swallowing some and 
suffering
>>some strange kind of poisoning, no amount of flies can beat me in a 
straight
>>fight.

But a swarm of those killer Mexican bees should have you worried. They can 
kill you.

>>My feeling is that fighters are good for screening and keeping
>>merchies in line. Big ships are for killing big ships.
>
>"Screening?"  If, by rule and design, fighters can't affect anything much 

>more than 100 times their size, AND can't get sufficient squadron or 
fleet 
>level coordination to act as a coherent battery, then they have no chance 
of 
>acting in a screening role *either*,

Huh? There _are_ examples of effective fighter batteries. Now let's see, 
where did I put that reference... <dig, dig> ah yes, the excellent 
Illustrated Traveller Bibliography at:
        http://www.pemaquidsolutions.com/bibliography/

...has a CT section. Fighter batteries are somewhere in one or more of 
these:
        JTAS #14 High Guard: Optional Rules, by Stefan Jones
        JTAS #14 TCS Squadron Design, by Kevin Connolly
        JTAS #15 TCS Squadron Design II, by Kevin Connolly
        JTAS #23 Naval Command, by Jeff Groteboer
        JTAS #24 Ref Notes: High Guard and TCS Campaigns, Leroy W.Guatney **
        (** It's by Leroy, but please don't let that put you off! ;-)

...and are definitely in:
        JTAS #27 Fighter Profile: The Rampart IV and V

They are treated just like an extra battery. The only time they could 
affect BIG ships is if they fired nukes, I guess. But they certainly act 
as an effective anti-missile screen.

Ah, look, I'm coming in 1/2-way thru this discussion. Feel free to ignore 
me.  ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
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Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 17:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Sun Aug  4 16:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020805081803.B24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <000b01c23c12$0a9e0040$0b01a8c0@duck>

> Of course, missiles have to be replaced -- beam weapons fire forever.
> Were these factors not present in previous Traveller incarnations?

They were in Book 2, but those factors were completely dropped in
High Guard.  Missles were free with an infinite supply.  HG just 
gave cost for the turret or bay weapons.  The ammo was assumed.

For small ships, missles were the only way to go.  You would mount
other stuff to fill out the USP, but missles were how you survived
because a nuclear missle could do near spinal damage without the 
spinal mount.

The other huge plus for HG missles is that they effectively increase
agility.  Since they take no power, they allow smaller power plants
to be used, or allow higher agility for the same sized power plant.

And there is an infinite supply of zero-mass, zero-volume free missles.

What a deal!

Honestly, except for some very specific cases, I have no idea why
anyone would use anything but spinal mesons and gobs and gobs of
missle bays.  The other weapons are just there to pad out the USP.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 17:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 16:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Paging Martin Dougherty
Message-ID: <OF6044E6DB.0B13FF37-ONCA256C0B.008342A9@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

>>> Obviously an eater of NIETZCHE POPS, The Uber Breakfast!
>>> I prefer Space Flakes (tm) myself.
>
>>I go for Cthulhu-hoops every time :-)
>
>I think that's marketed as Captain Cthulhu on this side of the pond.

Conme on! Any self-respecting Traveller should be eating that old 
"Goodies" breakfast staple, "Plastic Spacemen"!!

"Look mum, I found a corn flake!"

;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 17:57:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 16:57:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <c8.2ae3e017.2a7f1945@aol.com>

 >[snip good stuff]
 >ONLY the Master sees BOTH fleet positions - EVER. Opponents find out by
 >ships finding each other. Politial rules prevent FLEETS ( 5 ships per
 >group ) from crossing borders with declarations of war made.
 >
 >Think you can handle that?

Yes, I'd love to.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 18:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 17:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
Message-ID: <OF4B1DD5B4.382CD3B0-ONCA256C0C.000000B8@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

>But mines will be far cheaper than fighters.
>Probably fear cheaper.
          ^^^^
Ah yes, the old "your mine was made by the lowest bidder" concept. ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 18:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 17:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <9a.298a34a5.2a7f1cbe@aol.com>

 >But seriously, the comm delay and limited intelligence turned a wargame into
 >a nightmare.

Explains a lot about why the real military is the way it is.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 18:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 17:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Check Your Landgrabs!
Message-ID: <9b.2b7bf726.2a7f2041@aol.com>

 >>What is the landgrab?
 >
 >Claim a world in one of the published settings.  Detail the hell out of it.
 >Use any system you like. Publish the results here for everyone to admire.
 >Or put it up on the web, and post the link here for everyone to click.

I've done some work on Pagaton.  Is there an official listing of who has 
what, or it is a free-for-all?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 18:33:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 17:33:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: meduim navies
Message-ID: <3D4DC693.966243AF@mail.cswnet.com>

Initial Fleets for Lunion, Lanth, and Regina subsectors using
"meduim navies".

Initial Fleets, Lunion subsector

Imperial Navy MCr 2,835,544.748

Wardn. MCr 55
Smoug MCr 14700
Adabicci MCr 322,000
Zaibon MCr 148.75
Spirelle MCr 312,375
Derchon MCr 36,225
Lunion MCr 3,080,000
Shirine MCr 252
Harvoset MCr 14175
Perisephone MCr 28350
Capon MCr 17,850
Strouden MCr 3,465,000

This is peace time budget x10, using "meduim navies".
Note: I'm using supp3 to start, so Wardn is independent.

Initial Fleets, Lanth subsector

Imperial Navy MCr 68668.554

Extolay MCr 40250
Lanth MCr 220.5
Dinom MCr 63
Ghandi MCr 9.98
Wypoc MCr 267.75
Quopist MCr 1592.5
Treece MCr 105,000
Ivendo MCr 332.5
Tureded MCr 178.5
Equus MCr 66500
Rhise MCr 31.85
Icetina MCr 126
Cogri MCr 1785
Skull MCr 12600

This is peace time budget x10, using "meduim navies".

Initial Fleets, Regina subsector

Imperial Navy MCr 3,957,399.439

Efate MCr 3,220,000
Alell MCr 241,500
Yres MCr 13650
Menorb MCr 603,750
Uakye MCr 120.75
Boughne MCr 189
Hefry MCr 10.5
Ruie. MCr 9,100,000
Jenghe MCr 1365
Regina MCr 422,625
Feri MCr 409,500
Roup MCr 1,260,000
Yori MCr 23275
Dentus MCr 157.5
Wochiers MCr 294,000
Yorbund MCr 35
Moughas MCr 308
Rethe MCr 6,300,000
Inthe MCr 18200
Shionthy MCr 20825

This is peace time budget x10, using "meduim navies".

Notes: I'm using old supp3 for world tech levels, so Kinorb does'nt make
it [TL5]. Also, Yori is figured at TL13. Finally, Shionthys Imperial
Income is not included in the Imperial Fleet listing. I seperated it
because I deemed that income coming from Shionthy would be in the form
of collected CT-Shards, which would not go to local Imperial forces but
rather get sent off to an appropriate depot and/or research station.
This 'income' amounts to MCr892.5 annually. Also,
Shionthy is one of a very few in the Marches that would produce naval
income. The other 3 would be the two Droyne worlds in the Five Sisters
and Lewis in the Aramis subsector. I'm sure none of the three would be
contributing anything to the Imperial Treasury.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 18:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Aug  4 17:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
In-Reply-To: <200208040445160020.54D0CCA6@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
References: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPGEAHEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
 <200208040445160020.54D0CCA6@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <m37kj6jfye.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com> writes:
> 
> So does SPAM survive the Rule of Man, the Long Night and into the
> Third Imperium?

It no longer is manufactures, but reserves of SPAM still exist.  The
stuff lasts forever, you know...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
To murder a man is much odious, to kill a woman is in manner unnatural,
but to slay and destroy innocent babes and young infants, the whole
world abhorreth, and their blood from the earth crieth for vengeance to
almighty God.                                    --Edward Hall, c. 1480

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 18:42:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Aug  4 17:42:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Taxes
In-Reply-To: <000501c23bd4$ab74f6b0$6501a8c0@Darla>
References: <000501c23bd4$ab74f6b0$6501a8c0@Darla>
Message-ID: <m33ctujfxj.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Thomas Barnes" <twb3@charter.net> writes:
>
> IMTU the Imperium gets at 10% tariff on the value of all goods
> shipped interstellar, plus 10% of the fares charged for interstellar
> passage.  The Imperium does not levy any direct taxes on
> individuals.

Those rates would make it _very_ difficult to make a profit as a free
trader...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
If you're a politician, bureaucrat, or cop whose livelihood depends on
the drug war, you're fully as contemptible as any pusher, smuggler, or
cocaine baron--more so, because, unlike them, you profit directly by
destroying what was once the greatest freedom ever known to mankind.
                              --Mirelle Stein, The Productive Class

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 18:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 17:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Imperial Taxes
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGELECEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: hal@buffnet.net
>
>In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head tax" or does it charge
>an income tax on its citizens for its Imperial Budget requirements?  In

In my Traveller universe, the Imperium does not tax individuals directly.
It taxes its member states, and the tax is part of the membership treaty
that the world and the Imperium make when the star system joins the
Imperium.  The treaties vary substantially in defining the tax, but it is
usually based on the gross product of the member.  How the member raises
that tax is the member's business, but it is normally added to the members'
own internal taxation schemes.

The Imperium taxes corporations and other businesses involved in
interstellar trade directly.  For game purposes, I assume that all of the
prices provided by the books that relate to commercial starship operations
are just net of taxes.  Businesses doing only a small amount of interstellar
trade are exempt from direct Imperial taxation.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 18:52:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 17:52:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Check Your Landgrabs!
Message-ID: <3D4DCB21.7989C728@mail.cswnet.com>

>I've done some work on Pagaton.  Is there an official listing of who >has what, or it is a free-for-all?

For more info, go to this sight:

http://www.downport.com/landgrab/

Don't forget these worlds; they haven't been grabbed yet.
Adabicci, Rabwhar, Vilis, Choleosti and Margesi. 

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:02:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:02:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <25.2b8bf94f.2a7e4e43@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000301c23cba$1984c370$1001a8c0@sauron>

CHam628781@aol.com wrote :
> One option is visible fertility - humans are unusual in that
> we don't know when women are in oestrus. In a society where
> that didn't exist there is likely to be tight social control
> over gender interaction.
>
> You might see harem based families (K'Kree) or you might see
> a society where males and females have parrallel societies
> with extremely ritualised methods of interaction, particularly
> if women tend to become fertile at around the same time.
>
> One interesting possibilty is Vagr society where it would be
> obvious to every male within quite a distance that the high
> ranking, young female en route to take part in a political
> wedding and placed in the care of  the PCs by her
> doting (if somewhat inflexible, powerful and violent father)
> has just come "on heat" for the first time...

I have to bring up the Harry Turtledove World War series again here.

The use of ginger as a weapon against the invading "lizards" is just
priceless.

For those that aren't familiar, in the books ginger acts as an intoxicant on
lizard males, and does the same on females, except that it also induces all
the outward signs of oestrus including the release of the associated
pheremones, which in turn generates a matching reation in the male,
resulting in mating being the only thing that any male lizard with in scent
of the ginger-using female can think about.

The effect of sex happening "at any time" on what had been until then a
rigidly controlled society is, um, interesting.

It is really tempting to use this is as a plot on a B'wapp controlled world,
seeing as B'waap are pretty close to Turtledove's lizards otherise.

> Do male Aslan mark their territory?

I don't see why not. Human males do. <grin>

> "Elmer that danged tomcat's peeing on the airlock again! Go
> own scat, shoo - you pee on it you pay for it!"

Do we extend this to Aslan too then?

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:03:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:03:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller webring
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804205811.021c4950@mail.charter.net>

All the current (that I know of) Traveller webrings can be found at
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/RPG/SV/TRAV/TravRings.html

These include the gearhead ring, the deckplans ring, and the Reavers' Deep 
webring.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
A well-educated electorate being necessary to the
prosperity of a free state, the right of the people to
keep and read books, shall not be infringed.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:05:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:05:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Note on the rockhead ring
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804210228.01931b98@mail.charter.net>

The page listed as the ring homepage isn't there.

Try here <http://prattfall.tripod.com/gurps/traveller.html> for more 
information.

----------------------------------------------
"Function in disaster. Finish in style."
-- Lucy Madeira http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
----------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Junk in space
In-Reply-To: <20020730104900.B2820@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20804.181110.0M6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> On the other hand, a 2 cm chunk of something is going to do more
>> than leave a dent.
>
> Such a chunk probably has a kinetic energy of about 1 MJ at best, and
> very likely is travelling at substantially less than the speed of
> sound in starship hull material.

Okay, call it 5 grams. E=.5*m*v^2

1000000 = .5 *.005 * v^2

1e6 = 2.5e-3 * v^2
400e6 = v^2
20e3 = v

Somehow, I doubt that the speed of sound in starship hull material is
20 km/sec!

> I think "make a dent" would be about right.  If one ever hit, which it
> wouldn't unless the sensors were crippled.

Are you going to dodge? Or try to blow it up?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Check Your Landgrabs!
Message-ID: <200208050120.MBT01955@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Roseberry says
>Don't forget these worlds; they haven't been grabbed yet.
>Adabicci, Rabwhar, Vilis, Choleosti and Margesi. 

You're kidding, right?  If so, then I'll grab Vilis.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:25:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:25:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020804232303.7408.33320.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <006701c23c1f$2baff600$195d8690@computer>

> From: Mark Urbin
> At 08:19 AM 8/5/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
> >richard honeycutt wrote:
> > >       How many dinky airless rockballs with large populations do the
> > > world generation rules permit?
> >What does that matter?  They obviously don't need trade for survival.
> >It's not like they'll starve if you isolate them.
>
> On what do you base that on?

I believe he was being sarcastic.

Mind you, I suspect many rockballs would have extensive greenhouses. They
wouldn't necessarily live on imports and Soylent Green.

At least, if _I_ was planning a rockball colony, they would have extensive
greenhouses.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology
Message-ID: <006801c23c1f$2c8101a0$195d8690@computer>

>No, 'cause they'd still not get the full rest needed.  My
>greatgrandfather and grandfather took well over a month to return to
>the US after WWI & WWII; my father was back in college in 48 or so
>hours after his time in Vietnam.  Granted, that's _some_ rest time,
>but it's not nearly enough.  You don't find as much PTSD in fellows
>who got to slowly make their way back home, adjust to the new reality
>&c.; you find quite a lot in guys who are plucked up from one
>situation and dropped in another.

I wouldn't underestimate the frequency of PTSD among WWI and WWII vets. I've
spent quite a bit of time talking to widows of WWII vets, and quite a lot of
them have horror stories of how their husbands would sometimes lose the
plot.

The POWs seem to have had the most problems, of course. This seems to be
true even when they were held by the Germans and Italians, rather than by
the Japanese.

As for WWI, well, let's just say that Australia started having a bit of a
drug problem after 1918.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:28:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:28:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020804173620.8351.57196.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <006901c23c1f$2dd85440$195d8690@computer>

> From: "MJ Dougherty"
> The confirmation came back "Cannot attack. My cuirassiers are in front of
> my lancers. Must redeploy for maximum effectivenesss." (He'd been fiddling
> with his deployments for 3 hours game-time and was now under artillery
fire)

: )

Once in a multi-player Seven Year's War game I moved my general figure over
to where one of my team-mates' general was, and then shouted at the fool.
He'd been moving his artillery backwards and forwards for the whole game,
while my force was fighting superior numbers of Prussians. If his guns had
been firing, we might have won.

I think at some point we probably should get some multi-player strategic
PBEMs going. Something along the lines of FFW, although I don't own a copy
of it.

Hmm. I've always wanted to run an Arbellatra vs Gustus game. Maybe I should
actually do it.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:33:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:33:05 2002
Subject: [TML] prejudice (OT)
In-Reply-To: <20020804181934.4890b45c.mariachi@mac.com>
Message-ID: <000401c23cbe$835713d0$1001a8c0@sauron>

Ludwig wrote :
> Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> [...]
> > The military rejects enlistment of those 32 and older (if I recall
> > correctly)
> [...]
>
> 35 and older in the Navy.  IRL, that is.  Dunno about Traveller.

That's actually a very good point.

In Traveller, with good meditech and anagathics, there's no reason a
forty-year-old couldn't still have a good twenty years of service left in
her.

If you want to extrapolate on current medical capabilities and imagine
several thousand years of good diet and breeding, one could expect it be
common that hard-bitten sixty-year-old warriors would wipe the floor with
mere brats of 35, who have not had enough years of training to even begin to
approach them.

Another point about "combat effectiveness", having just recently watched the
film "Snatch" again. Fitness and training are not neccessarily any match for
brutality and nastiness.
Age, of course, has nothing to do with this.

Many people (especially ex-military types) seem to assume that the measure
of "combat effectivenes" is how fit you are, how well you can stand up on
the battlefield or in a pre-announced fight.

But if you're the sort of nasty little f*ck that stabs people in the balls
when they are not expecting it, just because they made the mistake of
talking to you when you're annoyed , then you can probably kill a lot of
your opponents before they even realize they are in a fight.

IIRC, the infamous "Carlos" otherwise known as "The Jackal" was, during his
most famous escapades, a balding, overweight, middle-aged man who was
completely out of breath after running up a couple of flights of stairs.

I have, on occassion, become involved in violence. In almost all cases,
intimidation was my most effective weapon, and that was all
verbal/psychological intimidation as I am not a large person. In the case's
where intimidation failed, being able to cause extreme pain, and take a few
blows while doing so, was far more important than fitness or fancy
technique.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Landgrab of Vilis
Message-ID: <200208050146.MBV00737@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

If I'm doing Vilis, I think I had better do Garda-Vilis, 
unless someone has already done that one.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Spam Spam Spam Spam...
Message-ID: <19d.66884a1.2a7f37e7@aol.com>

Hunter writes:

>So does SPAM survive the Rule of Man, the Long Night and into the Third=
> Imperium? If so, is it just a Solomani thing, or have the Vilani and=
> others come to enjoy this uniquely Terran... ummm .... stuff? I'm just=
> picturing a group of adventurers finding an old Rule of Man cache,=
> stockpiled with cans of good old SPAM!

I would expect that any planet in Solomani space settled by Hawaiians would 
either create or import vast amounts.  How widespread it would get really 
depends on shelf-life and the viability of swine off Terra. It may just be 
that pigs just don't taste the same when raised elsewhere, and so all Spam 
comes from Terra...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:09:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:09:21 2002
Subject: [TML] adventure
Message-ID: <1ac.6380721.2a7f37b7@aol.com>

Traveller Adventure: Comet Busters

For referees only.  If you intend to play this adventure, quit reading now 
and direct your game referee to this page. 

(continue paging down) 










Requirements 
The adventurers must have their own ship with a cargo space of at least 3 
tons, and vacc suits for all adventurers plus three.  If the vacc suits prove 
to be a major problem then let the players find extra vacc suits in the local 
starport repair shop.  The adventure team must have at least one person with 
engineering skill, preferably two, and at least one with mechanical skill. 

Set-up 
The adventurers have the only ship presently in-system at xxxx.   While 
technically backward the world is sufficiently advanced to have astronomical 
interests.  Recently a large new comet has been detected, and calculations 
have just shown that it will collide with xxxx in less than two days.  xxxx's 
government will send a pair of generals and a squad of troops by helicopter 
to request the ship's captain to come with them to a nearby military base 
where he will meet xxxx's supreme leader.  This leader will inform the 
captain of the situation his planet faces, and will (firmly) ask him to take 
on board several nuclear weapons and a nuclear weapons team and to deliver 
them to the comet, where they hope to to break it up.  Should the captain or 
the other adventurers prove less than altruistic the government will offer 
the following as incentives:  land holdings planetside, 1 million credits, 
large business-oriented interest-free loans, and lifetime tax- and duty-free 
status, for each adventurer.  This is the "Hero of xxxx" monetary award, and 
has been awarded by this planet only a few dozen times in its history. 

Should the adventurers demand further payments the government will agree to 
anything while the crisis is pending, but will then defer payment 
authorization to the proper bureaucracy, which will deny any payment greater 
than that listed above.  "This is not constitutionally authorized etc." 

The nukes are primitive and bulky, and will require manual detonation.  Any 
member of the weapons team will volunteer as necessary to make the devices 
work. 

All payment agreements will be with the government chief executive, and will 
be verbal.  Any payments made will be on mission accomplishment, not before. 

The general population will not be notified of the impending catastrophe. 

Begin Mission 
If the adventurers' captain agrees to this mission he will be immediately 
helicoptered back to his vessel, along with several generals, a squad of 
soldiers, and three wooden-crated nuclear devices.  The cases have simple 
manual control panels on the outside, with connector jacks and hand-held 
pushbutton actuators.  They are escorted by a weapons team, two young 
lieutenants and a tough-looking sergeant who are volunteering to deliver 
these devices and detonate them.  On arrival at the ship the nukes will be 
loaded into the cargo space immediately and the adventurers will be asked to 
begin their mission without delay since time is short.  If the adventurers 
insist on inspecting the cargo before it is loaded aboard they will be 
permitted to do so.  If there are not enough vacc suits then someone should 
bring up this issue now, and a frantic general search should ensue. 

Maneuvering to the Comet 
The weapons team will have sidearms and combat knives, both visible and 
concealed, as a matter of policy.  "We can't allow transportation of nuclear 
weapons without an armed escort.  Would you?"  Their mission is to blow up 
the comet, and they'll do anything to accomplish that.  If their sidearms are 
demanded of them while aboard ship they will comply immediately but 
reluctantly, handing over their visible pistols.  If pressed they will then 
give up their visible knives.  If the concealed weapons are located and 
confiscated then the team will begin quietly noting common gear that can be 
used as weapons in an emergency, such as fire extinguishers, pliers, 
wrenches, and the like.  Each lieutenant has brawling skill 2 while the 
sergeant has brawling skill 3, meaning they will be formidable hand-to-hand 
opponents.  The team will make no attempt to stand guard directly over the 
nuclear devices but rather will stick together at all times, believing they 
have a better chance against any treachery if they work as a unit. 

The approach will take about 20 hours and will be uneventful.  Most free time 
will be spent helping the weapons team learn how to use the ship's vacc suits 
and how to function in a zero gravity environment, which skills they will 
need in order to move the weapons on the comet's surface.  Also all three 
weapons team members will express great interest in learning how the ship 
flies through space, making comments such as "I always wanted to be a pilot, 
but I never thought I'd fly in outer space" and "I hope my world learns to do 
this some day".  All will ask to sit in the pilot's seat and maneuver the 
vessel at least once.  Both officers, if engaged in coversations, will show 
pictures of their families.  If asked about his family the much older 
sergeant will only comment that he is not sentimental.  If pressed he will 
simply insist on concentrating on the mission:  "I want to go over the vacc 
suit again.  Please show me how to deal with an air leak." 

If there is any serious confrontation between the adventurers and the weapons 
team then the weapons team will make absolutely every effort to get the 
mission back on track. 

Arrival 
On arrival at the comet the weapons team will gather on the bridge with the 
adventurers to see what they're up against.  The arrival will be very rough.  
The comet will be surrounded by debris, some of it capable of damaging the 
ship, bubbling up in the turbulent atmosphere boiling off of the comet's 
surface and escaping into space.  Visibility to the surface will be poor.  
Intelligent adventurers, in the face of this obvious hull-breach hazard, will 
go to general quarters, all hands donning vacc suits and depressurizing major 
spaces.  If the adventurers have not yet thought to ask then the weapons team 
will now inform them that they need to find a crack or depression in the 
comet large enough to allow manual insertion of the weapons and deep enough 
that a weapon detonation there will cause the comet to pop apart, thus 
diverting the majority of the comet mass around the inhabited planet in a 
large ring and minimizing the size of the pieces that do hit the planet. 

At some point during the approach the sergeant (or a lieutenant) will either 
locate and retrieve the team's firearms without the adventurers' knowledge or 
he will find some suitable substitute such as a rivet gun or emergency flare 
launcher.  Whatever he finds he will put it in his vacc suit outer pocket. 

Landing 
In a few hours the comet will be too close to xxxx for the nuclear detonation 
to have any effect on its chances of hitting the planet.  A short search will 
immediately discover two likely-looking canyons.  One will be easily and 
safely approached, but may not be deep enough.  The other is definitely deep 
enough, but will be dangerous to approach.  If the ship lands near the first 
canyon it will immediately be obvious that the canyon is not deep enough and 
that the second canyon must be attempted.  There is no time to look for a 
third canyon, but if the adventurers insist on trying then they will have to 
maneuver through debris that might damage their ship.  For each turn spent 
looking roll two six-sized dice and add the pilot's skill; if 8 or higher 
(8+) then the ship's pilot successfully avoids the debris, otherwise the ship 
will be hit by a rock that causes a hull breach.  On approaching the second 
canyon roll 10+, plus pilot skill, to avoid a minor crash landing that will 
require continuous work by all engineers to fix before a takeoff can be 
attempted, and roll 10+, plus pilot skill, to avoid a collision with debris 
that will cause a minor hull breach in a primary living space.  If all ship's 
engineers work to repair the damage, roll 6+, +1 for every engineer working 
on the problem, +1 for every 15 minutes of work that has passed, every 15 
minutes, to repair the hull breach, and roll 15+, plus mechanical skill of 
the senior engineer working on the problem, +1 for every other engineer 
working on the problem, +1 for every 15 minutes of work that has passed, 
every 15 minutes, to repair the crash landing damage.  The engineers can work 
on only one job at a time, and the ship can easily maneuver even with the 
hull breach, so presumably the adventurers will seek to repair the crash 
landing damage first. 

On A Refusal 
If for some reason the adventurers refuse to procede and try to abandon the 
mission then the weapons team will draw any weapons they can, imprison the 
adventurers in a stateroom, and attempt to land the ship near the comet's 
deepest canyon.  They will crash-land, automatically doing double the damage 
specified above.  The adventurers may, of course, attempt to resist this 
hijacking. 

On The Surface 
When the ship lands, whether gracefully or not, the weapons team will 
immediately begin manhandling the nuclear devices out of the ship's cargo 
bay.  Two of them will only be able to move one weapon at a time, while one 
remains in the cargo bay door with weapons left there while others are being 
moved.  All of them, having little zero gravity experience, will have to work 
slowly to make any progress.  They will request assistance from the 
adventurers (one lieutenant will release the adventurers, if they were 
hijacked, and then immediately go back outside), with assurances that the 
adventurers will not have to remain behind to detonate the bombs and that 
they will have time to get away. 

Before (if) any adventurers move out to assist the weapons team a patch of 
high-speed debris will strike the soldiers, puncturing their suits.  The two 
lieutenants will die, while the sergeant will succeed in emergency patching 
his suit but be seriously wounded.  The weapons and the ship will will be 
undamaged.  If no adventurers are moving out to assist the weapons team, or 
if they retreat, the sergeant will again request assistance, stating that he 
himself is unable to continue. 

If the adventurers refuse to help then the sergeant will arm the weapons and 
threaten to detonate them immediately if the adventurers do not complete the 
job.  If the adventurers still refuse to assist, he will do so.  The 
detonation will be successful and save the planet entirely on 10+, else save 
it but with great damage on 8+.  The ship and adventurers will be destroyed.  
The adventurers will be unable, because of terrain and angle, to bring any 
ship's weapons to bear against the sergeant without first lifting off and 
gaining altitude from the comet, which action will be immediately visible to 
him. 

If the adventurers assist involuntarily then the sergeant will supervise them 
with the recovered gun in one hand and the pushbutton actuator in the other.  
The referee will have to adjudicate further action.  If the adventurers 
succeed in placing the weapons to the sergeant's satisfaction he will dismiss 
them, giving them a time limit to get away before he manually detonates the 
nukes.  If the adventurers assist voluntarily the sergeant will be unable to 
help move the nukes but he will be able to supervise weapon placement.   

Time pressure will be very high.  The mission is fast approaching a point 
where it will be too late for the planned detonation to affect the comet's 
impact on the planet.  The sergeant will be fully aware of that time, having 
marked it on his watch, and he will goad the adventurers as necessary to 
hurry.  If that point is reached before the weapons are fully placed then he 
will detonate the weapons immediately regardless of any other consideration.  
If the detonation time is getting very close and it looks as if the weapons 
will not be fully placed he will stop goading the adventurers so as to keep 
them calm and working until the last possible minute.  While moving the 
weapons under this time pressure each adventurer must at some point roll 12+ 
once, plus dexterity stat, to avoid injury due to haste in handling large 
objects in close quarters in zero gravity.  Injuries will be pinched limbs.  
For each injury roll again with 12+ indicating a serious injury leaving the 
adventurer unable to contribute any further effort towards moving the 
weapons. 

If the engineers finish repairs then they may quickly join the effort to move 
the nukes down the canyon. 

The Find 
As the adventurers are moving the weapons to the bottom of the canyon, their 
vacc suit headlamps shining in the darkness, all will notice right away that 
there are strange shapes frozen into the glass- clear ice in both canyon 
walls.  It soon becomes apparent that the shapes are several non-humanoid 
aliens, some artifacts, and what appears to be a ship.  The aliens strongly 
resemble praying manti and are a little smaller than human-size.  They wear 
straps carrying various items of gear, but no clothing.  The ends of their 
"arms" have manipulatory organs with multiple opposing digits.  The ship 
appears to be about two hundred tons or so.  The tail section is not in view, 
and no guess as to the propulsion system can be made.  The artifacts are 
scattered about in the ice near the aliens and near the surface. 

Recovery 
After the sergeant recovers from his own amazement he will continue to insist 
on weapon placement.  When this is finished he will dismiss the adventurers 
while he remains behind to initiate the detonation.  If the adventurers have 
fully cooperated with the supreme leader and the weapons team from the very 
beginning and have otherwise been efficient then they will have enough time 
to attempt to recover artifacts from out of the ice, should they choose to 
try.  They will be able to reach up to two items per adventurer present, for 
up to a total of nine items, before time pressure forces them to abandon 
further excavation and to head for the surface to escape the planned 
detonation.  If they must choose between objects then the adventurers can 
from select the following:  three iridium- colored hollow tubes 1" diameter 
6" long, two palm-sized saucer-shaped metal disks ringed with buttons, two 
plain silver balls 2" in diameter, about half of an alien's head, and one 
entire alien arm.  If the players ask if they can take pictures then remind 
them that their vacc suits incorporate videocams and that they can fully 
record, in high definition digital format, all that they see as they work. 

Escape 
As the adventurers return to their ship any repair crew should have had six 
chances to repair the ship should they have needed to do so.  If the ship is 
not yet repaired and the adventurers have been efficient in their use of time 
then they should have two more chances to repair the damage and resume flight 
without having to worry about blast from the nukes.  If a final roll is 
necessary (and successful) before flight is possible then the adventurers 
will escape but their vessel will likely take serious damage from fragments 
of the blasted comet (repeat the damage and repair possibilities listed 
earlier in Landing).  If damaged, the ship must be repaired in two hours or 
it will burn up in the planet's atmosphere.  If the vessel is still on the 
surface of the comet when detonation takes place then the ship will 
automatically take all damage listed in Landing (no roll) and again must be 
repaired in two hours or burn up in the planet's atmosphere.  In addition to 
this, each crew member must roll less than or equal to both his strength stat 
and dexterity stat or be injured sufficiently to be unable to participate in 
any repair effort. 

The Artifacts 

Iridium Tubes 
Saucers 
Silver Balls 
Manti Body Parts 

Aftermath 
If the adventure team acted in a timely manner and did not engage in 
excessive delays then the planet will suffer only minor damage from pieces of 
the destroyed comet, and the adventure team will be paid to the limit 
previously specified.  If, however, the adventure team failed to perform 
expeditiously then upon their return they will find that large pieces of the 
comet have impacted the planet.  Overall damage to the planet's biosphere and 
human population will be moderate and temporary.  Damage to the government, 
however, will be fatal -- the capitol city, governing center, and starport 
will have been destroyed by a nearby strike.  All who knew of the adventure 
team's involvement in trying to stop the comet, including the supreme leader 
and senior military officers, as well as all who knew of any payment 
arrangements made with the adventurers, will have been killed in the impact.  
If they press their case and an investigation is launched they will have 
little evidence of their roll in this matter.  Astronomers will report that 
they did in fact notify the government of the impending collision, but they 
will have no knowledge of what action the supreme leader took regarding this 
information.  Surviving witnesses may report that an off-world ship did 
arrive recently at the starport near the capitol, and then leave shortly 
before the comet fragments impacted, but none of them will have any idea who 
it was or where this ship went after departing.  The nuclear scientists will 
say they received valid orders to hastily assemble the devices and turn them 
over to the military weapons team, but they have no idea where the weapons 
went after that.  If the adventurers made video records of their activities 
then the remaining governmental organs may be persuaded that the adventurers 
did in fact contribute to the partial saving of xxxx -- provided, of course, 
that these records show the adventurers cooperating with the weapons team and 
not needing to be coerced into taking action. 

If the adventurers failed to deliver the weapons at all then the planet xxxx 
will be severely traumatized by the comet's full impact, with tremendous 
damage to the population and the biosphere.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:11:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:11:56 2002
Subject: [TML] marking
Message-ID: <a1.2b5a23c4.2a7f3862@aol.com>

Charles (CHam628781@aol.com) writes:

>Do male Aslan mark their territory?
>

Yes, but with a fence, axe, or plasma gun...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:19:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:19:04 2002
Subject: [TML] adventure
Message-ID: <memo.604253@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <1ac.6380721.2a7f37b7@aol.com>
Nice :-)

Keep it up.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <006801c23c1f$2c8101a0$195d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <B9732F75.68182%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/4/02 6:10 PM, Alan Bradley at abradley1@bigpond.com wrote:

>=20
> I wouldn't underestimate the frequency of PTSD among WWI and WWII vets. I=
've
> spent quite a bit of time talking to widows of WWII vets, and quite a lot=
 of
> them have horror stories of how their husbands would sometimes lose the
> plot.
>=20
> The POWs seem to have had the most problems, of course. This seems to be
> true even when they were held by the Germans and Italians, rather than by
> the Japanese.
>=20
> As for WWI, well, let's just say that Australia started having a bit of a
> drug problem after 1918.

True.  There was battle fatigue and shell shock.  Many of these cases laste=
d
well beyond the war.  Actor Charles Durning, who served as an Army Ranger
and participated in both the D-Day landings and the battle of the bulged ha=
s
said that he continues to have nightmares about his military service to thi=
s
day.  There are, of course, numerous examples from both world wars and Kore=
a
of what we would now call PTSD.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:24:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:24:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Yes PM
In-Reply-To: <B96B1B3E.66A00%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20804.182449.3P9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 7/29/02 4:11 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>
>> 
>> Or let it burn up in a planetary atmosphere (though getting away with
>> that requires a low tech planet without much in the way of orbital
>> survielance.
>
> How big a signature would a body have?  Just another meterorite?

One that parted company with a ship entering or leaving orbit.

At the very least, you'd get a fine for trash dumping if it was
noticed. 

In low orbit *we* track stuff down to marble size. 

Since "ballistic entry" of "stealthed" packages would be a great way to
smuggle relatively rugged items, ships would get a lot of monitoring on
approach to any planet that cares about smuggling.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:25:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:25:33 2002
Subject: UFO TV Series [was: Re: [TML] Sub-FTL Travel in MT]
In-Reply-To: <B96B2C17.66A13%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20804.182951.3v1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 7/29/02 4:16 PM, George A. Boyett at gboyett@msn.com wrote:
>
>> I'm 36 and I remember that series.
>
> I'm 39. 
>> 
>> One thing I can't remember is the name of the organization that fought
>> the aliens.
>
> SHADO

Supreme
Headquarters
Alien
Defence
Organization

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:26:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:26:47 2002
Subject: [TML] getting rid of a body (was Re: Yes PM)
In-Reply-To: <3D45F676.C97C7157@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20804.190552.6d6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>
>> At 05:04 PM 7/29/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>>
>> >A good high-fire kiln, for firing porcelain, e.g., gets up to about
>> >3,000F if I recall correctly.  That shouldn't leave anything of a
>> >body but ash.  I think the DNA will be completely unrecoverable --
>> >but I hope that those of you who know will speak up (both sides in my
>> >current campaign might want to know).  My art school friends and I
>> >used to think that that was probably the best way to get rid of a
>> >body at TL 7.
>>
>
> If your planet is so equiped, i would think a volcano would be a great
> low-tech body disposal resource.

As long as it's a Kileaua(sp) type that has lots of nice *fluid* lava.
The sort we have on the West Coast are pretty much useless for that
sort of thing.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:27:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:27:59 2002
Subject: [TML] getting rid of a body (was Re: Yes PM)
In-Reply-To: <20020730000444.42371.qmail@web20415.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20804.185754.8D0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Yes PM
>>Both the wood chipper and pig methods have been used in cases where 
>>the forensics people *were* able to recover enough evidence to ID
> the
>>remains as human and get a DNA ID.
>
> [deletion]
>
>>For Traveller, it's going to be hard to beat this:
>
> [deletion]
>
>>Using pure oxygen, the body would likely burn weel. And hot. But
> this
>>is apt to be impractical. If you've got HEPlaR, then you can just
>>vaporize the body. 
>>
>>Or you could just dump it out the lock in jump. 
>>
>>Or let it burn up in a planetary atmosphere (though getting away
> with
>>that requires a low tech planet without much in the way of orbital
>>survielance.
>
> A good high-fire kiln, for firing porcelain, e.g., gets up to about
> 3,000F if I recall correctly.  That shouldn't leave anything of a
> body but ash.  I think the DNA will be completely unrecoverable --
> but I hope that those of you who know will speak up (both sides in my
> current campaign might want to know).  My art school friends and I
> used to think that that was probably the best way to get rid of a
> body at TL 7.  

Next time you have access to one, toss in a pound of meat. Including
fresh bone. 

It'll take a long time and produce a *lot* of smoke. And what I'm told
is a *very* distinct odor. 

As well as depositing soot and other things all over the place.

And teeth, being damn near porcelian already, will take a long time to
calcine. The ends of the thigh bones are pretty durable as well.

> Now at Traveller tech levels, you can make a body disappear
> completely by dumping it into a star or into jump space.  Even
> putting it into a cometary orbit should make it impossible to find
> without specific information.  I should think that a body dropped
> into a gas giant's atmosphere would be impossible to find, too.

Putting it into a cometary orbit requires being unobserved. 

> All of the foregoing options assume access to a starship or at least
> a small craft.  What about the lower-echelon wise guy, who only has a
> grav speeder?  How about someplace where they melt metal?

They'll be more than a little upset at all the impurities in the melt. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] getting rid of a body (was Re: Yes PM)
In-Reply-To: <p05111710b96c7691308f@[192.168.0.2]>
Message-ID: <20804.190929.3R3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 5:04 PM -0700 7/29/02, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>
>>Now at Traveller tech levels, you can make a body disappear
>>completely by dumping it into a star or into jump space.  Even
>>putting it into a cometary orbit should make it impossible to find
>>without specific information.  I should think that a body dropped
>>into a gas giant's atmosphere would be impossible to find, too.
>
>         I think the trick with dumping a body into a star or large 
> planet is making sure you have the oribital mechanics right so it 
> actually goes into the target body and not into orbit.  OTOH, if 
> you're dealing with dumping a body in space, maybe it's enough to 
> just give the body enough velocity out your airlock in an empty 
> direction.  Chances are, it'll never be found anyway.

There are a *lot* of folks in jail after putting bodies in places where
the chances were that said bodies would never be found.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:34:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:34:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Warghame ----> Nightmare?
Message-ID: <194.af51b03.2a7f3c97@aol.com>

>But seriously, the comm delay and limited intelligence turned a wargame into
>a nightmare.

Commo delays and limited intelligence are half the fun of a decent wargame. I 
love large, multiplayer exercises -- the umpires don't have to insert the 
"fog of war" because the players provide it themselves!

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:38:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:38:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020804232303.7408.33320.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <006701c23c1f$2baff600$195d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <033401c23c28$9dc0c590$7400a8c0@matt>

Alan Bradley wrote:
>> From: Mark Urbin
>> At 08:19 AM 8/5/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>>> richard honeycutt wrote:
>>>>       How many dinky airless rockballs with large populations do
>>>> the world generation rules permit?
>>> What does that matter?  They obviously don't need trade for
>>> survival. It's not like they'll starve if you isolate them.
>>
>> On what do you base that on?
>
> I believe he was being sarcastic.
>
> Mind you, I suspect many rockballs would have extensive greenhouses.
> They wouldn't necessarily live on imports and Soylent Green.
>
> At least, if _I_ was planning a rockball colony, they would have
> extensive greenhouses.

And I dare say they did...

Unfortunately in the TNE setting Virus comes along and takes over, opening
airlocks etc or otherwise playing with the lifesupport. Greenhouses exposed
to vacuum, or that have pure oxygen passed into them and a spark ignited
don't tend to be overly productive... Or it plays grav pong along the access
corridors to the greenhouses... lovely food that you can't get to...

etc

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:43:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:43:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <006701c23c1f$2baff600$195d8690@computer>
References: <20020804232303.7408.33320.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804223247.0237e008@192.168.0.1>

At 11:01 AM 8/5/2002 +1000, Alan Bradley wrote:
> > From: Mark Urbin
> > At 08:19 AM 8/5/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
> > >richard honeycutt wrote:
> > > >       How many dinky airless rockballs with large populations do the
> > > > world generation rules permit?
> > >What does that matter?  They obviously don't need trade for survival.
> > >It's not like they'll starve if you isolate them.
> > On what do you base that on?
>I believe he was being sarcastic.

I don't think he was.

>Mind you, I suspect many rockballs would have extensive greenhouses. They
>wouldn't necessarily live on imports and Soylent Green.
>At least, if _I_ was planning a rockball colony, they would have extensive
>greenhouses.

So would I.  Now, your rockball is on a trade route.  A jump away is a nice 
size 7 planet with a standard atmosphere, and plenty of water.
They have amber fields of grain, huge herds of groats, and a wide variety 
of various fresh foods.
They don't like strip mining, you like reasonably fresh beef...
Keep this trade cycle up for a few hundred years.

It will be the wackos waiting for the world to end who demand that 100% of 
all needed foodstuffs be grown locally.
Everybody sane knows that tons of fresh food arrive every week...
Ya, that algae is good for you, but it tastes funny and turns everything green!

The supply ships stop coming...and you're only producing enough food 
locally to feed 50-60% of the population.
Even if the local leaders have the will to implement rationing, are they 
able to enforce it?


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"This has the characteristic look and feel of a complete fiasco."
                 http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:45:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:45:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Landgrab Vilis
Message-ID: <3D4DE550.CE9DD052@mail.cswnet.com>

Alright! Welcome to the neighborhood. I've been pushing the border
worlds hard hoping people would snag'em. About Garda-Vilis: I seem to
think someone grabed it somewhere along the way, but the landgrab
website does'nt show it. I'd snag'em both immediatly and see if anyone
objects. It wouldnt hurt to try anyway [shrug].

Some of your Imperial neighbors [within 6 parsecs]:
Ficant/Vilis        A. M-Vallance
Saurus/Vilis        Iain Williams
Tavonni/Vilis       David Jaques-Watson
Zeta 2/Vilis        Jason Barnabas
and of course, me:
Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:47:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:47:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: meduim navies
Message-ID: <OFAB92C96B.2F360646-ONCA256C0C.000E60F9@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Dan wrote:
>I seperated it
>because I deemed that income coming from Shionthy would be in the form
>of collected CT-Shards, which would not go to local Imperial forces but
>rather get sent off to an appropriate depot and/or research station.

No, no, no, _Marc_ is receiving income from sending out _his_ collected CT 
shards - Oh! I see what you meant.

;-)  ;-)

(There's that razor-sharp wit again - must be Monday!)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] getting rid of a body (was Re: Yes PM)
Message-ID: <200208050251.MBX00823@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson says
<snip the drawbacks of the various ways>
I still think my method of lime, sulfur, and water works 
rather well - I remember the demonstration we received with a 
pig carcass - the bones and teeth were gone after a week 
underground with the mixture.

If you're lucky, and you work near a steel mill, there are 
tanks where they recycle the sulfuric acid - they keep it at 
about 18 M.  Drop someone in that (watch the splash) and 
there won't be anything left.  The recycling process will 
take care of the impurities.

In the various Traveller campaigns I played in, the 
characters invariably ended up with some sort of Italian 
firign squad situation aboard ship.  Provided that the pilot, 
navigator, and engineer weren't greased in this display of un-
intelligence, the resulting bodies (and often, the protesting 
wounded) were blown out of the airlock in jump space.  
Sometimes, people killed aboard ship while in port were 
stuffed into the freezer or low berth until they could be 
disposed of.

One crew had this happen with such regularity that a low 
berth was permanently rigged to show low level life signs, in 
case a customs official was suspicious about the person 
inside.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 21:02:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 20:02:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Landgrab Vilis
In-Reply-To: <3D4DE550.CE9DD052@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804225914.02142128@192.168.0.1>

If John doesn't mind, I could do Garda-Vilis.
Filling in details around his outlines or vice-versa.

At 09:39 PM 8/4/2002 -0500, Roseberry wrote:
>Alright! Welcome to the neighborhood. I've been pushing the border
>worlds hard hoping people would snag'em. About Garda-Vilis: I seem to
>think someone grabed it somewhere along the way, but the landgrab
>website does'nt show it. I'd snag'em both immediatly and see if anyone
>objects. It wouldnt hurt to try anyway [shrug].
>
>Some of your Imperial neighbors [within 6 parsecs]:
>Ficant/Vilis        A. M-Vallance
>Saurus/Vilis        Iain Williams
>Tavonni/Vilis       David Jaques-Watson
>Zeta 2/Vilis        Jason Barnabas
>and of course, me:
>Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 21:04:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 20:04:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
Message-ID: <138.1260f901.2a7f16a9@cs.com>

--part1_138.1260f901.2a7f16a9_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 8/4/02 12:11:08 AM Central Daylight Time, 
res053z0@gten.net writes:


> (Doug says, 'Who is Richard Tucholka?' )
> 
> Stalking the Night Fantastic, Fringeworthy, FTL 2448
> 
> 

Speaking of which, does anyone know where I might find a good-condition copy 
of FTL:2448? I've looked all over the place, both online and in RL and I've 
never been able to find anything. I've got everything else TriTac's put out 
and I'm wanting to complete my collection.

Simon Jester
Damage169@cs.com

--part1_138.1260f901.2a7f16a9_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 8/4/02 12:11:08 AM Central Daylight Time, res053z0@gten.net writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">(Doug says, 'Who is Richard Tucholka?' )
<BR>
<BR>Stalking the Night Fantastic, Fringeworthy, FTL 2448
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>Speaking of which, does anyone know where I might find a good-condition copy of FTL:2448? I've looked all over the place, both online and in RL and I've never been able to find anything. I've got everything else TriTac's put out and I'm wanting to complete my collection.
<BR>
<BR>Simon Jester
<BR>Damage169@cs.com</FONT></HTML>

--part1_138.1260f901.2a7f16a9_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 21:05:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 20:05:50 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
Message-ID: <OF835496FC.46D80DAC-ONCA256C0C.000EC80C@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Robert spammed us with:
>"Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com> writes:
> 
>> So does SPAM survive the Rule of Man, the Long Night and into the
>> Third Imperium?
>
>It no longer is manufactures, but reserves of SPAM still exist.  The
>stuff lasts forever, you know...

I have it on good authority that the various shelters constructed by the 
Octagon Society were made out of old Spam tins - y'know, emergency 
supplies for stranded travellers, get it?

Why do you think those guys were so pleased to find that Ancients base on 
Fulacin - for the food! To say nothing of explaining that execrable 
10-volume poem - the writer had gone mad from eating too much of the same 
thing all the time!! And don't even get me started on the fact that, the 
instant someone invented Spam, Grandfather decided that humans were even 
dumber than worms and gave up on them as useful servants!!! Not to mention 
cutting himself off from the rest of the Universe!!!!

"IT'S ALL TRUE, I TELL YOU! HE TOLD ME SO LAST TIME I VISITED HIS POCKET 
DIMENSIO-" <whack! jab! bind!> "mmph, mmph!" <struggle>

"...and now, back to your regular scheduled programming (nothing to see 
here, move along)..."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 21:40:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sun Aug  4 20:40:25 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020805081803.B24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
 <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]>
 <20020805081803.B24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <p04330100b973a30616e9@[198.123.22.175]>

At 8:18 AM +1000 8/5/02, Timothy Little wrote:
>David P. Summers wrote:
>>  Missiles are very damaging.  However, they also can be intercepted.
>>  The utility of missiles depends on how many missiles you have vs how
>>  much point defense you foe has.
>
>Yes, I'd noticed that too.  In particular, the existing missiles and
>launchers can be greatly upgraded to achieve much better results
>against point defense for rather little cost.  However, given other
>comments it looks like doing so would take it even further away from
>previous versions of Traveller. :-/

I'm not sure about missles, but in fact playtest versions of 
starships had "point defense lasers" (less damage, higher rof).
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 21:55:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Sun Aug  4 20:55:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat
References: <c5.26be7ee0.2a7caa89@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4DF711.5C3C76CD@pobox.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>  >In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships which have an armor
>  >factor of 13 or less.
>
> With a fusion gun?  I'm sorry, you must be using rules I'm not familiar with.
>  I was thinking of High Guard.
> _______________________________________________

In sufficient numbers they can _mission-kill_ (i.e. render combat-ineffective)
ships which have armor 13 or less, according to HG2.

A code-5 fusion gun will hit a agility-6 ship of greater than 20kdton with a roll
of 10 on 2d6.  It penetrates code-9 sand on a 8.

Against a ship with Armor-13, one in 36 fusion gun hits will do a Weapon -1 on
the Surface Explosion table.  Enough of these, and the target vessel will have no
weapons, which will render it unable to perform its mission, hence the term
mission-kill.  The ship can still maneuver and escape.

Against Armor-11, fuel hits are possible, and the target can be disabled by loss
of fuel.

In both cases, many hits are required, but that's why it says "in sufficient
numbers".

WKH


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 21:56:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Sun Aug  4 20:56:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat
References: <c5.26be7ee0.2a7caa89@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4DF72F.D22EE3FC@pobox.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>  >In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships which have an armor
>  >factor of 13 or less.
>
> With a fusion gun?  I'm sorry, you must be using rules I'm not familiar with.
>  I was thinking of High Guard.
> _______________________________________________

In sufficient numbers they can _mission-kill_ (i.e. render combat-ineffective)
ships which have armor 13 or less, according to HG2.

A code-5 fusion gun will hit a agility-6 ship of greater than 20kdton with a roll
of 10 on 2d6.  It penetrates code-9 sand on a 8.

Against a ship with Armor-13, one in 36 fusion gun hits will do a Weapon -1 on
the Surface Explosion table.  Enough of these, and the target vessel will have no
weapons, which will render it unable to perform its mission, hence the term
mission-kill.  The ship can still maneuver and escape.

Against Armor-11, fuel hits are possible, and the target can be disabled by loss
of fuel.

In both cases, many hits are required, but that's why it says "in sufficient
numbers".

WKH


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 22:00:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Sun Aug  4 21:00:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat HULL THICKNESS LIMITATION
References: <190.ad335f8.2a7ca953@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4DF7E3.D8D36B56@pobox.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>  >HULL
>  >185.000 tons standard, 2,590.000 cubic meters, Planetoid Configuration
>
> In a Planetoid Configuration of this size the maximum thickness of the outer
> hull is 0.6 meters and likely much less.  If this ship were 185,000 tons, the
> maximum outer thickness of the outer hull would be 6.0 meters.  Yet in both
> cases they are considered to be naturally armor 3.  I think there should be a
> lower limit on allowable tonnages for Planetoid and Buffered Planetoid ships.

Perhaps this could be a house rule.  I am not aware of such a rule in HG2.

WKH


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 22:10:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 21:10:47 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020805075953.A24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
 <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <20020805075953.A24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3436.64.8.3.28.1028520584.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

> Oh.  Here was I thinking that the missiles were suboptimal and could
> have been designed better and cheaper.  For example, it is trivial to
> design a missile turret that can launch and control 20 missiles per
> combat turn, each costing less than half as much with better
> acceleration and damage.

There is always the ability to design bigger and faster missiles using
GURPS VEHICLES and the guidelines presented with TRAVELLER itself.  A
friend of mine created an inertial guided missile that removes the
explosive warhead from the missile and turned it into a kinetic kill
device.  It all depends on the choices made by the game designer as well
as the GM.  Each change you make to *your* traveller universe takes it a
little further away from the "official" traveller universe as presented in
GURPS TRAVELLER (which doesn't bother me one bit!!!)


>>  I personally do not use the GURPS STARSHIP combat rules as
>>  presented,
>
> Do you use something close, or a drastic re-write?  (Or not at all?)

What I use is based essentially on GURPS TRAVELLER and MAYDAY vector
rules.  Missiles in my games end up being really NASTY!  In my games,
fighters can move to within passive sensor range of their enemy, send
information back to a missile frigate that is outside of sensor range of
an enemy target.  The missile frigate then starts a high speed run against
the intended target and launches its missiles outside of sensor range of
an enemy ship.  Since the missiles are now separated from the ship which
has not been seen on enemy sensor screens as yet, they coast in undetected
until it is FAR too late.  In my games?  It is theoretically possible for
a missile to slam into a ship hull at speeds in excess of 90 hexes per
turn...  Do the math and see how much damage a single missile moving at 90
hexes per turn does ;)


>> nor am I pleased with rendition of the Meson weapons in the GURPS
>> TRAVELLER rule set.
>
> They do look a little icky to me too.  What bothers you most?


What bothers me most is that Meson Screens in High Guard usually had a
GOOD chance of stopping the damage *entirely*.  In GURPS TRAVELLER, Meson
screens *always* let damage through.  In HIGH GUARD, the odds of securing
a meson hit to begin with against an unscreened target is rather High
(statistically speaking).  In GURPS, the way to have a highter potential
for hitting, you increase the odds of hitting by putting out more
firepower.  In my opinion, the best way to have handled Meson weaponry
would have been to lower their effective damage, but increase its rate of
fire.  Why?

Rememember in High Guard, the higher your "letter" value of weapon versus
the letter value of the hull size - you got 1 crit hit?  Same "effect"
could be secured in a GURPS TRAVELLER game by using the higher rate of
fire aspect.  The better you roll to hit, the more hits you secure against
your target.  Thus, for me, the best way to build GURPS TRAVELLER meson
weapons is to have them do less damage, but have a higher rate of fire -
increasing their accuracy value.  A roll made by say, +6, means the ship
took what, 3 hits?  And if the ship doesn't have meson screens, three hits
are NASTY.


Oh well.  The best thing about GURPS TRAVELLER and GURPS VEHICLES - is you
can create *any* technological innovations you want for your campaign. 
You can build internally consistant weapon systems you can think of that
are presented within both TRAVELLER and GURPS VEHICLES.  You want fire and
forget Missiles for your Traveller Universe?  You can build them.  YOu
want robotic ships?  GURPS VEHICLES has rules for it.  You want to know
what the results are of a 50 lb rock tossed via a Trebuchet against a Far
Trader's hull?  GURPS VEHICLES has rules for it.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 22:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 21:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020805081803.B24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
 <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]>
 <20020805081803.B24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3688.64.8.3.28.1028521212.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

> It seems that would be a good idea if your ship needs to spend a long
> time away from resupply, but not good for actual battle capability.
> Using the full Vehicles rules, I was unable to design a craft that
> could mount enough point defense weapons to last more than a round or
> two.
>
> The other problem I noted is the short range of direct-fire weapons.
> None of the presented beams could touch anything beyond 30 hexes.
> Missiles (even the wimpy predesigned ones) can hit from 50 or so
> hexes.

What you do is build lasers whose only purpose of existance is to damage
missiles.  Build those lasers so that you have a high rate of fire.  Keep
in mind that missiles are fired upon during the point defense phase...




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 22:24:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 21:24:04 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805002239.02142128@mail.charter.net>

What is the TL of  the Imperium & the Terran Confederation in the Year 1000 
setting of T20?



-----------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Whether you're Bill Clinton or the head of a large
corporation like Enron, it seems the best defense
in any legal matter is to act like you just arrived
on the planet." -- Spencer F. Katt
-----------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 22:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Sun Aug  4 21:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net><m3ofclg93m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org><004301c23a04$8cdeff60$0112bd50@martinjd><m3eldhkv8o.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org><00aa01c23a5c$4f293ca0$5d0bbd50@martinjd> <m3bs8lj5c2.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> <012601c23a78$2c1d4f00$5d0bbd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3D4E00D2.3BF3156C@pobox.com>

MJ Dougherty wrote:

> >
> > Well, if you can damp inertia and can create artificial gravity, I'm
> > pretty certain that you can fake high-g effects (or rather, create
> > them).  I don't think that the physics would necessarily be all that
> > difficult; trivial, probably, for a society which has those things.
> >
>
> If you can do these things, then simulator problems I've outlined are
> greatly diminished (most of them). I don't imagine this sort of thing is
> available for $35 in a playstation game, though.

Remember the movie "The Last Starfighter", where the video game was actually
a simulation?

I could see the IN covertly running a string of "reality arcades", where
kids can come and play the latest simulator games against each other.  The
best 'players' win a visit from an IN recruiter.

WKH


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 22:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Sun Aug  4 21:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net><m3ofclg93m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org><004301c23a04$8cdeff60$0112bd50@martinjd><m3eldhkv8o.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org><00aa01c23a5c$4f293ca0$5d0bbd50@martinjd> <m3bs8lj5c2.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> <012601c23a78$2c1d4f00$5d0bbd50@martinjd> <3D4E00D2.3BF3156C@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <00ed01c23c3b$7d2af720$9307b286@Shane>

Bill Hopper wrote:
> Remember the movie "The Last Starfighter", where the video game was
actually
> a simulation?
>
> I could see the IN covertly running a string of "reality arcades", where
> kids can come and play the latest simulator games against each other.  The
> best 'players' win a visit from an IN recruiter.

Though for optimum testing conditions, parts of the video game arcade should
periodically explode, catch fire and/or depressurize during the games.
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- IN Recyc System Maintenance Sim v3.0 - So real you can
smell it.
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 23:40:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 22:40:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Astronomy Boffin Question
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEKAIKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

How big can a rocky asteroid be and still be irregular?

_______________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 02:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 01:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Warghame ----> Nightmare?
Message-ID: <memo.609810@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <194.af51b03.2a7f3c97@aol.com>
> >But seriously, the comm delay and limited intelligence turned a 
> wargame into
> >a nightmare.
> 
> Commo delays and limited intelligence are half the fun of a decent 
> wargame. I love large, multiplayer exercises -- the umpires don't have 
> to insert the "fog of war" because the players provide it themselves!

It's the only kind of wargame I enjoy...

I remember a very good one with 4 teams, each in separate rooms with maps 
& radios, plus an umpire team. 2 teams on each side... but the radios were 
on a common frequency! We were allowed to use runners as well, but only to 
the umpires, not to the other team on our side (we could send them written 
messages, but via the umpires which meant they were often garbled or not 
delivered). 

Then one of us realised that the other team on our side was in the room 
next door... so we hung out the window and passed messages that way :-)

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 03:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 02:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat
Message-ID: <d1.1c5d7500.2a7f99af@aol.com>

 >>  >In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships which have an armor
 >>  >factor of 13 or less.
 >>
 >> With a fusion gun?  I'm sorry, you must be using rules I'm not familiar 
with.
 >>  I was thinking of High Guard.
 >> _______________________________________________
 >
 >In sufficient numbers they can _mission-kill_ (i.e. render 
combat-ineffective)
 >ships which have armor 13 or less, according to HG2.
 >
 >A code-5 fusion gun will hit a agility-6 ship of greater than 20kdton with 
a roll
 >of 10 on 2d6.  It penetrates code-9 sand on a 8.
 >
 >Against a ship with Armor-13, one in 36 fusion gun hits will do a Weapon -1 
on
 >the Surface Explosion table.  Enough of these, and the target vessel will 
have no
 >weapons, which will render it unable to perform its mission, hence the term
 >mission-kill.  The ship can still maneuver and escape.

My tables say a factor 5 fusion gun will hit a 20kton AG6 ship on a roll of 
(6 base + 6 agility - 1 size = ) 11+.  Yeah, I see your point, though I would 
take repairs into account.  But I think a capital ship has armor 15.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 03:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 02:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804192145.024cac00@192.168.0.1>
References: <02080313391901.00601@linux> <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020804192145.024cac00@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020805191412.A25687@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> At 08:19 AM 8/5/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
> >What does that matter?  They obviously don't need trade for survival.
> >It's not like they'll starve if you isolate them.
> 
> On what do you base that on?

The fact that high-pop worlds (including airless rockballs) have very
little trade compared to their population.  If they relied on external
trade for food they would all have starved to death long ago.

Look at Kwai Ching, for example (as one you should be familiar with :)
Its per-capita imports from all the other systems in the subsector
combined are about 0.8 Cr/week.  Whatever the population is eating
every day, it isn't imported food.  Kwai Ching actually has
significantly more than the median per-capita trade for high-pop
vacuum worlds.

Obviously most of them (probably all) have local means of production.
They may import some luxury foods (who doesn't?), but certainly not
staples.  This is not surprising -- the level of technology required
to grow food plants and animals is not exactly excessive or costly,
and the side-benefits include the ability to recycle your organic
wastes, air and water.  That's much better than importing food at a
large markup.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 03:30:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 02:30:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Junk in space
In-Reply-To: <20804.181110.0M6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020730104900.B2820@freeman.little-possums.net> <20804.181110.0M6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020805192941.B25687@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Somehow, I doubt that the speed of sound in starship hull material is
> 20 km/sec!

I used 1 MJ as a *maximum* energy, for a 30-gram object travelling at
10 km/s.  If you want to drop the mass to 5 grams, drop the energy to
250 kJ.

And yes, I expect the speed of sound in starship hull material to be
no less than 20 km/s.

Hull armour is known to be both extremely rigid *and* requires a lot
of energy to penetrate.  Note that some existing materials already
exceed 15 km/s, and materials in the Far Future are likely to be even
more so.  I would not rule out 40+ km/s for lightweight TL12 armour.


> Are you going to dodge? Or try to blow it up?

Either would be easy.  Let the ship's captain decide.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 03:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 02:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <006701c23c1f$2baff600$195d8690@computer>
References: <20020804232303.7408.33320.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <006701c23c1f$2baff600$195d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <20020805193038.C25687@freeman.little-possums.net>

Alan Bradley wrote:
> I believe he was being sarcastic.

No, quite serious.


> At least, if _I_ was planning a rockball colony, they would have
> extensive greenhouses.

Given trade figures in Traveller, they do.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 03:42:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Mon Aug  5 02:42:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <181.c196c70.2a7ed4f5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPAEBKEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

It is canon, Traveller has whopping big fleet carriers (not to mention the
Tigress class BBs) which carry huge number of fighters.

The imperium obviously believes they have a need for large numbers of
fighters. AFAIK carrier squadrons are equated with cruiser squadrons (see
Fighting Ships) and presumably carry out some of the same missions. Commerce
raiding is possible but would you need a fleet carrier for that?

So given that carrier squadrons exist if they are totally useless against
other cruiser squadrons what would they be used for. I submit it could also
mean that point defence systems are not as good as the navy would have us
believe.

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 04:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Freelance Traveller)
Date: Mon Aug  5 03:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] [www] 5 Aug 2002 - Freelance Traveller NOT Updated :(
Message-ID: <o7jsku0jgg9j6krr0eajhh6hu0q40eqjoc@4ax.com>

Due to an unexpected confluence of factors, mostly involving the effect of
weather on human activities (we lost power Friday evening when a tree took
down some wires down the block during the storm, and I spent most of
Saturday recovering from a fifteen-hour outage), I haven't been able to get
an update together for this week.  However, if I can survive this week at
work, and if we don't get another frog-drowner of a storm that kills power,
I'll post an update this coming weekend, and, if I'm lucky, a *really*
*massive* update a week later - I have the intervening week as vacation!

Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture 
Enterprises, 1977-2000.  Use of the trademark in 
this notice and in the referenced materials is not 
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.freelancetraveller.com
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
editor@freelancetraveller.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 04:21:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 03:21:08 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller - more
In-Reply-To: <186.b850971.2a77a260@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20805.002325.7j9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>  >The W-71 
>  >thermonuclear device had a yield of 5 megatons.  I feel it's 
>  >fair to put the typical Traveller missile in this yield range.
>
> no, it's not.  that's huge.  as I understand it the united states doesn't 
> even have weapons that large in its inventory anymore -- they're all in the 
> 10 to 100 kton range.
>
> consider a ship with 10 missile bays.  at 30 missiles per salvo, 100 salvos 
> per bay, 10 bays, that's 30,000 weapons.  I think that that's more than the 
> entire present world inventory, on one dinky ship.  that's a lot of 
> fissionable material, and it all has a shelf-life, and each warhead has to 
> fit onto a relatively small missile.  five megs is too much.

Actually, given some of the other tech, the weapons could be fusion
warheads that don't *need* a fission trigger.

>>As for nuclear weapons effects in space, the Project Orion 
>>ship was using fairly "small" yields at a distance of several 
>>hundred meters from the pusher plate, that was high strength 
>>steel with another material for a coating.  Too close, and 
>>even the small bomb would vaporize the pusher plate.
>
> well then it sounds like nuclear weapons are all anyone would need or want, 
> because no ship could withstand them.  unless, of course, as someone said 
> elsewhere in this packet, "by tech 12 or 13 they darn well ought to have 
> solved that problem".

The problem is that given anti-missile lasers, you aren't going to get
a nuke that *close*.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 04:23:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 03:23:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804223247.0237e008@192.168.0.1>
References: <20020804232303.7408.33320.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <006701c23c1f$2baff600$195d8690@computer> <5.1.0.14.0.20020804223247.0237e008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020805202103.D25687@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> The supply ships stop coming...and you're only producing enough food
> locally to feed 50-60% of the population.

If you can find a high-pop world that has enough trade to feed just a
tenth of its population, even if it was importing nothing but food, I
will be surprised.

Most of them don't import enough to account for even 2% of their food
requirements, still assuming that they import nothing but food.

A 40-50% local shortfall is unsupportable by a factor of 30 or so.  It
is much more likely that most of them are producing amply enough to
feed their population.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 04:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Aug  5 03:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805002239.02142128@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <005401c23c6c$91137060$be09bd50@martinjd>

> What is the TL of  the Imperium & the Terran Confederation in the Year
1000
> setting of T20?

The Impeirum is TL 14 mostly, with Tl 15 just creeping in over the last few
years.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 04:32:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Aug  5 03:32:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Warghame ----> Nightmare?
References: <194.af51b03.2a7f3c97@aol.com>
Message-ID: <007601c23c6c$bec65a40$be09bd50@martinjd>

> >But seriously, the comm delay and limited intelligence turned a wargame
into
> >a nightmare.
>
> Commo delays and limited intelligence are half the fun of a decent
wargame. I
> love large, multiplayer exercises -- the umpires don't have to insert the
> "fog of war" because the players provide it themselves!
>

OUrs certainly did. This Nightmare was the best fun wargame I've ever
played, BTW.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 04:33:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Aug  5 03:33:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020804173620.8351.57196.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <006901c23c1f$2dd85440$195d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <008901c23c6c$e2004c00$be09bd50@martinjd>

>
> Hmm. I've always wanted to run an Arbellatra vs Gustus game. Maybe I
should
> actually do it.

You should. Then I can play


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 05:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Aug  5 04:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat
In-Reply-To: <d1.1c5d7500.2a7f99af@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4F04E9.7899.17C7EF@localhost>

On 5 Aug 2002 at 5:04, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> My tables say a factor 5 fusion gun will hit a 20kton AG6 ship on a
> roll of (6 base + 6 agility - 1 size = ) 11+.  Yeah, I see your
> point, though I would take repairs into account.  But I think a
> capital ship has armor 15. 

Armour 15 is only legal for planetoids and buffered planetoids until 
TL15, remember.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 05:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 04:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <3436.64.8.3.28.1028520584.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com> <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net> <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <20020805075953.A24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <3436.64.8.3.28.1028520584.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020805215043.E25687@freeman.little-possums.net>

hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> There is always the ability to design bigger and faster missiles using
> GURPS VEHICLES and the guidelines presented with TRAVELLER itself.

Yes, that's what I'm wondering about.  Do I want to design better
weapons and tactics for my Traveller game, at the expense of making it
less like Traveller?  Or do I try to rationalise the existing ones to
maintain compatibility with what other people have done?


>  A friend of mine created an inertial guided missile that removes
> the explosive warhead from the missile and turned it into a kinetic
> kill device.

Yes; either remove the chemical warhead or replace it with a fusion
warhead.  A chemical explosive makes little sense.  Even the standard
missiles accelerate to 72 km/s in the first round -- putting a
chemical explosive in them is a bit like putting a spring-loaded
boxing glove on an anti-tank penetrator.


> The missile frigate then starts a high speed run against the
> intended target and launches its missiles outside of sensor range of
> an enemy ship.

That works under the standard rules, too.  I've had vague thoughts in
the same direction, but didn't actually get round to testing them.


> Do the math and see how much damage a single missile moving at 90
> hexes per turn does ;)

Yes, I know.  Kinetic energy *kills*.  Give the missiles better
thrusters and an extra-heavy frame for even more (unnecessary) damage
with less run-up required.  You could even put a bunch of them on a
bus chassis so they can all share a power plant for the initial boost,
and make the individual energy banks much smaller.


> What bothers me most is that Meson Screens in High Guard usually had a
> GOOD chance of stopping the damage *entirely*.  In GURPS TRAVELLER, Meson
> screens *always* let damage through.

??  Not as I read it.

A 100k-dton ship with 7000 meson screen modules has a maximum DR vs
meson guns of about 180000.  Usually the operator will manage to
succeed on their roll by 4 and get half that, 90000.

A spinal meson gun typically does between 60000-87000 damage, so it
will usually only penetrate if the operator doesn't perform well.

It is not true that damage *always* gets through.  Granted, that is a
*lot* of shielding; 7% screens by volume.  It is protecting against
the biggest weapon in the basic book, though!


> Thus, for me, the best way to build GURPS TRAVELLER meson weapons is
> to have them do less damage, but have a higher rate of fire -
> increasing their accuracy value.

Yes, this might have been better.


> Oh well.  The best thing about GURPS TRAVELLER and GURPS VEHICLES - is you
> can create *any* technological innovations you want for your campaign. 

Yes, I quite enjoy this part.  I just have to keep reminding myself to
tone things down from the standard GURPS tech level assumptions, or I
will very rapidly find myself unable to steal other people's ideas for
my now ex-Traveller game :)


> You want to know what the results are of a 50 lb rock tossed via a
> Trebuchet against a Far Trader's hull?  GURPS VEHICLES has rules for
> it.

Yes, this sort of very wide scope is what I like best about GURPS in
general.  Given Traveller's range of planetary tech levels, this might
easily come up in a game!


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 05:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 04:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Landgrab Vilis
Message-ID: <200208051155.MCP01180@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mark Urbin says
>If John doesn't mind, I could do Garda-Vilis.
>Filling in details around his outlines or vice-versa.

Sounds OK. I seem to remember some adventure that took place 
on Garda-Vilis, and it mentions Vilis as well, so I'm going 
to have to take a look at that.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 06:03:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shadowcat)
Date: Mon Aug  5 05:03:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Large Scale Games, One Traveller, one WW3[Long]
In-Reply-To: <194.af51b03.2a7f3c97@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4E1A82.455.14DD3F@localhost>

couple of examples come to mind from the distant past, one of 
which was actually part of the playtesting for the Combined Arms 
Command Decision Rules.

many years ago, GDW along with the Central Illinois Tabletop 
Warrriors ran a couple of megagames which were part of the 
Wilderness Project, the first was the wilderness campaign from the 
American Civil War, and the second, a year later roughly, was the 
first day of WW3 based along the lines of Red Storm Rising. these 
games took place in a classroom building at the University of 
Illinois and involved dozens of players and judges. communications 
lag, fog of war and just general confusion, along with assorted rules 
problems best left for another forum, made for an interesting day.

The second game was a traveller game at a previous Winter Wars 
a couple of years after the historic Shadows tournament, which 
was called Diplomatic Mission. This was a 6 hour game with 24 
players that dealt with the reopening of trade to a redzoned world.
One Team was the on planet contact team, the other team was the 
bureaucrats and nobles who had to make the final decisions based 
on the information they were getting from the planet. the off planet 
team was a jump away, and this was represented by a 15 minute 
time lag. each team had different objectives, and each player had 
personal objectives and goals, so not everyone was working 
together or even on the same side actually.

This game lasted 6 very hectic hours, and had a grand total of 2 die 
rolls, the contact teams psi expert was revealed as a spy, and the 
teams security officer executed him on the spot pretty much.

I have seriously considered reconstructing the aspects of this 
game for another convention, or even as an IRC game, but there 
are too many problems for it to work as an IRC game.






From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 06:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 05:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <3688.64.8.3.28.1028521212.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com> <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net> <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]> <20020805081803.B24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <3688.64.8.3.28.1028521212.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020805221551.F25687@freeman.little-possums.net>

hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> What you do is build lasers whose only purpose of existance is to
> damage missiles.  Build those lasers so that you have a high rate of
> fire.

High RoF doesn't do a lot.  It just counts as a bonus to hit in the
combat system.  e.g. Multiplying the RoF by 16 gives you +4 bonus.
This would mean 2 extra hits per shot, except:

For the same volume requirement, your weapon has to use about 10 times
less energy per shot.  That cuts the damage by a factor of about 3,
which doesn't matter a lot against the standard missiles.  It will
however reduce your range by a factor of 3 -- not a problem, you say,
because you only need less than a hex?  Range directly determines
accuracy, which will thus drop by 3.

The net effect is a +1 to hit.  You're almost back where you started,
except that now your weapon is greatly restricted in its utility for
any other role.

I've been along that route :-/


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 06:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 05:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
Message-ID: <2da64f2ddca2.2ddca22da64f@us.army.mil>

----- Original Message -----
From: Hunter Gordon <trav@RPGRealms.com>
Date: Sunday, August 4, 2002 11:45 am
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)

> 
> On 8/4/2002 at 4:21 PM Antony Farrell wrote:
> 
> >Was that spam and eggs
> >or spam, spam egs and spam?
> 
> Ok gotta keep it on topic!
> 
> Pardons if this has actually been covered previously.
> 
> So does SPAM survive the Rule of Man, the Long Night and into the 
> Third Imperium? If so, is it just a Solomani thing, or have the 
> Vilani and others come to enjoy this uniquely Terran... ummm .... 
> stuff? I'm just picturing a group of adventurers finding an old 
> Rule of Man cache, stockpiled with cans of good old SPAM!

Ah, you should have saved that question for a Newbie Essay [tm]! ;-)

Actually, it's quite plausible that SPAM was a significant factor in the 
Solomanification of former Vilani worlds.  To wit:

1.  SPAM would likely be included in relief aid to former Vilani worlds 
ravaged by Terran-introduced pandemics.
2.  Given that SPAM does not require processing by shugiili, and that 
SPAM has a relatively long shelf life ("long" in a geological sense, 
that is), it would go far in breaking the power of the shugiili in 
Vilani society.
3.  Add to these factors the relative conservatism of Vilani culture and 
you find that, once SPAM was introduced on former Vilani-ruled worlds, 
it tended to remain a staple of the diet on those worlds, thus ensuring 
that SPAM would continue to be consumed (if not necessarily enjoyed) up 
into M:1100.
4.  Until such time as the fine folks at Hormel licensed the production 
of SPAM on worlds other than Earth, the Terrans would be the only source 
of this staple, thus economically binding the former Vilani worlds 
closer to Terra.  Even after SPAM production began on worlds other than 
Earth, genuine Terran SPAM was held to be superior, commanding premium 
prices.  This coopted Sharushiid into the ruling SPAM consortium.
5.  We can thus also see that the Solomani Rim War, with its focus on 
the capture of Terra, was driven by the desire to control the original 
point source of SPAM.

QED. ;-)

Hmmm.  Perhaps I should write up Hormel Foods as a megacorp using the 
Universal Corporate Profile from _101 Corporations_....



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 06:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 05:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <2e4d282e3963.2e39632e4d28@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Date: Sunday, August 4, 2002 3:26 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller


<<snip>>
> > 
> > Army?  What army?
> 
> I'll believe that when I see it. This sort of talking has always 
> turned 
> out to be wishful thinking in the past, and I see no reason why it 
> isn't now. It's all very well while you're thrashing low-tech 
> thrid-
> worlders, but sooner or later there'll be another first-world vs 
> first-
> world scrap, and spec ops teams relying on vast amounts of support 
> just 
> won't cut it.
> 
I refer readers to the Fehrenbach quote the opens Chapter 1 of GT:GF.  
Words to the effect of (quoted from memory):

You may fly over a land forever; you may bomb it, atomize it, sterilize 
it and wipe it clean of life; but if you wish to defend it for 
civilization, you must do this the way the Romans did, by putting your 
young men into the mud.

ObTrav:  1: The quote was used in a Trav book.  2: The eternal Trav 
debate of "why an Army"?  


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 06:56:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 05:56:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020805191412.A25687@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804192145.024cac00@192.168.0.1>
 <02080313391901.00601@linux>
 <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
 <02080313391901.00601@linux>
 <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020804192145.024cac00@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805084630.018ca4e0@192.168.0.1>

At 07:14 PM 8/5/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
> > At 08:19 AM 8/5/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
> > >What does that matter?  They obviously don't need trade for survival.
> > >It's not like they'll starve if you isolate them.
> > On what do you base that on?
>The fact that high-pop worlds (including airless rockballs) have very
>little trade compared to their population.  If they relied on external
>trade for food they would all have starved to death long ago.

That would depend on what they have to trade and what planets are 
convenient trading partners.
It's not a bad rule of thumb though.

>Look at Kwai Ching, for example (as one you should be familiar with :)
>Its per-capita imports from all the other systems in the subsector
>combined are about 0.8 Cr/week.  Whatever the population is eating
>every day, it isn't imported food.  Kwai Ching actually has
>significantly more than the median per-capita trade for high-pop
>vacuum worlds.

Kwai Ching is an interesting example.  They really have no choice but to 
produce the majority, if not all of their food.
They are not part of an established trading federation, and their imports 
are spotty at best due to ethically challenged merchant activity.
(that's according to GT: Behind the Claw, and the example Tim is using.)

>Obviously most of them (probably all) have local means of production.
>They may import some luxury foods (who doesn't?), but certainly not
>staples.  This is not surprising -- the level of technology required
>to grow food plants and animals is not exactly excessive or costly,
>and the side-benefits include the ability to recycle your organic
>wastes, air and water.  That's much better than importing food at a
>large markup.

To produce a variety of food that would keep a large population happy 
requires a large amount of space, water and energy.
If you have a very strict government, you can enforce a limited diet (Grand 
Chairman Mao XXXIX says you should eat green
Cereal for breakfast with soy milk, green bread (with a slice of hamster 
meat if you make your quota) for lunch, and green soup for dinner).
If you have bulk traders making a regular run through the system, and there 
is an Agricultural planet on their loop, the rockball can get a wide 
variety of foodstuffs without the large markup.

If it's not economically viable to produce 100% of the food locally, why 
should they do it?



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 07:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 06:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPAEBKEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <181.c196c70.2a7ed4f5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805085604.018d7340@192.168.0.1>

At 05:30 PM 8/5/2002 +0800, Antony Farrell wrote:
>It is canon, Traveller has whopping big fleet carriers (not to mention the
>Tigress class BBs) which carry huge number of fighters.
>
>The imperium obviously believes they have a need for large numbers of
>fighters. AFAIK carrier squadrons are equated with cruiser squadrons (see
>Fighting Ships) and presumably carry out some of the same missions. Commerce
>raiding is possible but would you need a fleet carrier for that?

Aren't fighters viable against lower tech ships?
The Imperium does maintain a tech advantage over most of it's neighbors.
Especially in those smaller governments in Reavers' Deep or Spinward of the 
Marches.
Jump in system, and swarms of fighters are bloody everywhere, at least in 
the view of the locals....

Nice saber rattle, if the Imperium can put 10+ TL E-F fighters against 
every TL A-C SDB or customs cutter the locals have.

This frees up the destroyers and Cruisers to knock out any Capital ships 
and look menacing in Orbit.

>So given that carrier squadrons exist if they are totally useless against
>other cruiser squadrons what would they be used for. I submit it could also
>mean that point defence systems are not as good as the navy would have us
>believe.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 07:02:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 06:02:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Landgrab Vilis
In-Reply-To: <200208051155.MCP01180@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805090123.018d3468@192.168.0.1>

At 07:55 AM 8/5/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>Mark Urbin says
> >If John doesn't mind, I could do Garda-Vilis.
> >Filling in details around his outlines or vice-versa.
>Sounds OK. I seem to remember some adventure that took place
>on Garda-Vilis, and it mentions Vilis as well, so I'm going
>to have to take a look at that.

Broadsword.  I have a copy.




---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 07:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon Aug  5 06:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020805041046.16273.821.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <003101c23c82$2a486dc0$b35d8690@computer>

> From: Mark
> It will be the wackos waiting for the world to end who demand that 100% of
> all needed foodstuffs be grown locally.
> Everybody sane knows that tons of fresh food arrive every week...
> Ya, that algae is good for you, but it tastes funny and turns everything
> green!

First: why are you talking about algae? Algae is for fish.

Secondly, you can probably produce _more_ food than you need, and at least
some of your "agricultural land" is likely to be used as recreational areas,
as a reserve of biomass, and as supplementary life support.

Otherwise your life support systems lack redundancy.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 07:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 06:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020805202103.D25687@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804223247.0237e008@192.168.0.1>
 <20020804232303.7408.33320.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <006701c23c1f$2baff600$195d8690@computer>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020804223247.0237e008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805090845.01831e50@192.168.0.1>

At 08:21 PM 8/5/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
> > The supply ships stop coming...and you're only producing enough food
> > locally to feed 50-60% of the population.
>
>If you can find a high-pop world that has enough trade to feed just a
>tenth of its population, even if it was importing nothing but food, I
>will be surprised.

I'll have to dig through the back lists, but I remember detailed analysis 
of the CT trading rules being done years ago.
It was determined that published trade rules didn't fit the big picture.
Large bulk traders were needed in core sectors to make it work.
Some of these traders were designed and published.

>Most of them don't import enough to account for even 2% of their food
>requirements, still assuming that they import nothing but food.
>
>A 40-50% local shortfall is unsupportable by a factor of 30 or so.  It
>is much more likely that most of them are producing amply enough to
>feed their population.

I agree with you in places like the Marches, or even more frontier settings.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 07:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Aug  5 06:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: JTAS
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D00@USCHM203>

Just wanted to add my vote. JTAS is well worth the money. The archives alone
are worth many times the subscription price.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 07:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Mon Aug  5 06:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
In-Reply-To: <2da64f2ddca2.2ddca22da64f@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020805084634.00a56560@minn.net>

At 03:46 PM 8/5/2002 +0300, john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:

>4.  Until such time as the fine folks at Hormel licensed the production 
>of SPAM on worlds other than Earth, the Terrans would be the only source 
>of this staple, thus economically binding the former Vilani worlds 
>closer to Terra.  Even after SPAM production began on worlds other than 
>Earth, genuine Terran SPAM was held to be superior, commanding premium 
>prices.  This coopted Sharushiid into the ruling SPAM consortium.
>5.  We can thus also see that the Solomani Rim War, with its focus on 
>the capture of Terra, was driven by the desire to control the original 
>point source of SPAM.
>
>QED. ;-)
>
>Hmmm.  Perhaps I should write up Hormel Foods as a megacorp using the 
>Universal Corporate Profile from _101 Corporations_....

The canned chili is okay too, I usually lay a couple of slices of processed
cheese food product on top when I microsave it. 

(Across cyberspace, someone asks himself: What about processed cheese food
products in the Third Imperium?)


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 07:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 06:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
Message-ID: <200208051354.MCT02502@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leslie Bates says
>What about processed cheese food
>products in the Third Imperium?)

This is along the lines of "great cultural contributions by 
the Solomani".

Baseball
Beer
SPAM
Processed cheese product(in all its various forms)
Artificial butter flavored topping
French fries
Sliced bread
Microwave oven
Burrito
"Sports" drink (including canned sweat)
Pop music
"Shtick" (I'm sorry, I can't see a Vilani stand-up comic)

________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 08:11:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Aug  5 07:11:41 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D03@USCHM203>

Message: 2
From: sneadj@mindspring.com
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 22:16:45 -0700
>John Snead wrote:

>ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>) wrote:

>> "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> writes:
>> > 
>> > Personally, I find it hard to shed many tears for Hiroshima,
>> > Nagasaki, or Dresden.
>> 
>> I dunno--the firebombing of Dresden is IMHO one of the worst war
>> crimes committed by the US.  Esp. the bit about destroying emergency
>> vehicles...
>> 
>> That no-one was ever strung up for it is a travesty.  We're supposed
>> to be better than that.

>Agreed.  Hiroshima and Nagasaki can at least be argued as being 
>better than the alternatives (although I've heard several different 
>PoVs about how exactly necessary bombing Nagasaki was).  
>However, Dresden is an amazingly clear cut case.  It was an act of 
>terror and vengeance easily as bad as anything the other side did 
>in it's bombing of civilian targets.

You're both right, and I'm not proud of how I feel about it. It's nothing
personal against Germans as a people. My best friend's parents are from
Germany, and both his grandfathers served in the Wehrmacht. I've played
soccer for several German-American teams, and took 6 years of German
language in HS.
It's just that, knowing the barbarism committed by that regime, and having
seen more than a few older folks around town with faded tattoes on their
forearms, I sometimes think the bomb should have been dropped on Berlin or
Hamburg(yes, I know the war in Europe ended before that was possible).
As atrociously as the Japanese behaved, they never committed organized and
institutionalized genocide.
Regardless, as was said, in hindsight, and in the long run, it was probably
the wrong thing to do, and yes, we are supposed to be better than that. 
I honestly think that most of the time we are.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 08:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 07:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <200208051427.MCU00107@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Hurrel, Brian" says
<snip about how humans should be better to humans>

Yes, that's a nice sentiment.  But at what point do humans 
apply this to other sophonts?

I've read a pretty persuasive argument by Charles Pellegrino 
that outlines every reason why we should, even in the absence 
of direct contact, assume that a starfaring species, a 
species capable of manipulating the energies necessary to 
span stellar distances, is a direct apocalyptic threat to our 
existence, and that other species must make this same 
assumption about us.  The penalty for not making this 
assumption and being wrong is annihilation of your own 
species.  Even if there's a 1 in 10,000 chance you're wrong 
about the alien species' peaceful intentions, and they turn 
out to be hostile, being wrong means your species ceases to 
exist.

A ship making an interstellar crossing to our system near the 
speed of light is more of a weapon than all of our 
thermonuclear arsenal put together. (sorry - this isn't 
intended to bring up near-c rocks!).  So, are those ships we 
see coming (their antimatter rocket drive emissions will be 
quite distinctive) at near-c, are they peaceful emissaries, 
or weapons on the way.

And if we develop such rockets ourselves, and we know that it 
took us only 200 years from the advent of radio to the 
invention of the antimatter beamed-core rocket, what would we 
make of radio signals we detect from systems 20 or so light 
years away?  May we assume that the countdown has begun?

Humans have a built-in cultural inhibition against 
intraspecies murder - or else murder would be more common.  
But make it an alien species, and we won't have that 
inhibition by nature.  Any inhibition we have will come from 
intellect and not instinct.  And any restraint we have will 
be easy, perilously easy, to lose.  It will be difficult not 
to fear them by instinct.

We kill plenty of dolphins, if only by accident, and few 
humans see that as a tragic killing of a sophont.  We 
certainly don't generally see the killing of non-human 
possible sophonts as the same type of killing as a "homicide".
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 09:06:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Aug  5 08:06:42 2002
Subject: [TML] 40-year olds
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D06@USCHM203>

>From: Tod Glenn wrote:

>>> Why does the Army do this?  Because 40 year olds, as a
>>> whole, have sufficient problems that the Army knows it will
>>> lose more in attempting to incorporate them than it will
>>> gain.
>> 
>> No, no, no.  The reason the Army won't enlist you is because
>> the "useful lifetime" of the older soldier is shorter.
> 
> Well, now you are citing "the needs of the service" rather than the right
to
> serve.  I think the needs of the service should be consistently foremost.

>It should be noted that the same types of restrictions apply to other
>Federal service.  For example, you cannot apply to any federal law
>enforcement agency unless you will have enough years of service for
>retirement by age 55.  Meaning that after age 35, your too old to be an
FBI,
>DEA or ATF agent.

Unless you already have time in. If you served 4 years in the Navy(or any
service) when you were younger, you could actually join up to age 39 to have
your 20 years before 55.
I was casually looking into joining the NJ Air National Guard (because the
Corps sure as s*** isn't going to take my sorry out of shape butt back at
this age, and because I'm married, a father, and don't feel like running
around swamps anymore). I thought I would be automatically disqualified
after age 35, but my previous time in counts, so I actually have some leeway
should I decide to join.
The nice thing is I woudn't have to go to boot camp. The not-so-nice thing
is the ANG doesn't have dress blues.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 09:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Mon Aug  5 08:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: meduim navies
Message-ID: <3D4E984B.99EF2E24@mail.cswnet.com>

David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson writes:
>No, no, no, _Marc_ is receiving income from sending out _his_ >collected CT shards - Oh! I see what you meant.

Right. Shionthy [imtu] is one of those rare exceptions where the 3I gets
income from a red zone. Instead of getting its 30% in credits, it gets
the equivalent amount in CT-Shards. Note that this does not mean that
the Imperuim does not buy CT-Shards; they'll snatch everyone they can
get there hands on. But the planetary payment that Shionthy makes as a
member of the Imperuim [imtu] should be in CT-Shards.

Course thats all imtu and not landgrab...

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 09:28:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Aug  5 08:28:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Movies
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D08@USCHM203>

Regarding "accuracy" or "worthiness" of SF book to movie translations,
unless a group of die-hard fans can come up with the millions of dollars
neccessary to produce even the simplest sci-fi film, our choices are, for
the most part, going to be between "Paul Verhoeven's Starship Troopers" and
"No Starship Troopers".

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 10:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 09:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] places to get plots for adventures
Message-ID: <200208051614.MCX05321@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

just watching "Wait Until Dark".  incredibly good hook to get 
a traveller party into deep trouble
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 10:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 09:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
Message-ID: <200208051642.JAA31293@molly.iii.com>

David Shayne <daveshayne@ameritech.net> writes:
> 
>> Any clues?
>
>I couldn't find that info in any TNE source. There are charts for that
>in "World Builder's Handbook" for MT. Assuming for the moment that you
>don't have access to that very worthwhile publication I can give you
>some typical figures from that source.
>
>Smallest SGG radius = 20
>Average SGG radius ~= 60
>Highest SGG radius = 100
>
>Smallest LGG radius = 110
>Average LGG radius ~= 175
>Highest LGG radius = 240

Applying a realism check here, Jupiter, at size 88, is about the limit
for any sort of gas giant (assuming TNE size is in thousands of miles,
like CT size).
>
>Lowest GG density = .1
>Average GG density ~= .21
>Highest GG density = .3

Assuming that's g/cc, that's horribly wrong. Saturn has a density of 0.69
and is probably near the low end of possible densities; all of the other
gas giants have densities between 1 and 2.  A large gas giant, at 4x
jupiter mass and about the same diameter, would be as dense as the earth.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 10:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 09:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <20020805165054.0EF364501@mo120usjc.palm.net>

Alan Bradley <abradley1@bigpond.com> wrote:
>> From: Mark 
>> It will be the wackos waiting for the world to end who demand that 100% of 
>> all needed foodstuffs be grown locally. 
>> Everybody sane knows that tons of fresh food arrive every week... 
>> Ya, that algae is good for you, but it tastes funny and turns everything 
>> green! 
>First: why are you talking about algae? Algae is for fish. 

Spirulina. A type of blue-green algae which is very cheap to grow, is 70% protein, has required amino acids, and a wide range of required vitamins & minerals.  You can easily process it to a flour subsitute.  And o can feed it to the fish in your fish farms.
Very hard to beat in bang for buck catagory.

>Secondly, you can probably produce _more_ food than you need, and at least 
>some of your "agricultural land" is likely to be used as recreational areas, 
>as a reserve of biomass, and as supplementary life support. 

Yes, on  well run, well designed system.  How many, out on the fringes, are optimzed for profit, instead of safety or even comfort?
> 
>Otherwise your life support systems lack redundancy. 

----------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere. 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 11:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 10:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes
Message-ID: <200208051705.KAA00273@molly.iii.com>

hal@buffnet.net writes:

>Hello Folks,
>  Just a question of sorts...
>
>In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head tax" or does it charge
>an income tax on its citizens for its Imperial Budget requirements?  In
>short, if the Imperial government taxes 10% of a Gross Planetary Product,
>then it would in essence be an income tax.  If it charges a flat 500 CR
>per person on a planet, then it is a head tax.  Which is it?

It's not clear if either one is the case.  We really have only two bits of
canon to go from:

In Striker, the implication is that the imperial military tax is simply 1/3
of the planet's total military expenditure (with another 1/3 going to the
subsector fleet, so the world only keeps 1/3 for personal forces).  This
would be some sort of production tax (and, conveniently for those who want
to keep fleet sizes down, gives most planets a reason to restrict their 
military expenditures).

Our other canonical information is the 2% imperial stake in megacorps.  If
we extend this to other interstellar corporations, it's basically a 2% 
corporate income tax.

The depiction of the strength of the Imperial government is a bit 
inconsistent in Traveller materials, but all canon requires we maintain 
is the imperial military (covered by the military tax above), the scouts,
and the starports; starports would mostly pay for themselves with fees,
and might be central points for collecting the Imperium's 2% share.  In
any case, the 2% tax on interstellar corporations is probably sufficient
to pay for most of the known remaining Imperial expenditures.

Beyond this, the Imperium probably has some right to require worlds to
provide certain classes of service, which is indirectly a tax but would be
pretty much at the discretion of the local duke.

>And I find it an interesting thought here.  If the Imperium charges say,
>3% of a planet's gross planetary product for its military taxes - this tax
>is on top of the local ruler's/government's tax.  How much in the way of
>taxes can a population take before its economy begins to stagnate?

Well, that depends on how the taxes are spent; as long as the taxes are
spent locally in an efficient manner it isn't necessarily crippling to
have very high tax rates; under some circumstances (typically infrastructure)
a government can spend money more efficiently than private industry.  The
main thing that's crippling is spending tax money on things that don't grow
the economy, such as the military, though you want to keep tax rates modest
to give people a reason to work.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 11:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 10:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Sensors - too sensitive?
Message-ID: <200208051724.KAA01911@molly.iii.com>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:

>Was just reading a news blurb about a new radio telescope at 
>Green Bank.  They had some problems with local interference, 
>namely a dog's heating pad.  The pad would intermittently 
>give off bursts of radio noise.
>
>Given the tendency to want to put sensor suites on our ships 
>that can pick out the static on a party balloon at 10 million 
>kilometers, I'm wondering if there's a real limit that won't 
>be overcome by fancy algorithms or software.  If you're on 
>the surface of the Imperial Capital, and using your short 
>range communicator, and I'm trying to find you amidst the 
>cacophony of billions of similar users in an ultramodern EM 
>noisy environment, do I really stand a chance even if I'm 
>using the sensor array on a Tigress class fun machine?

Depends on your assumptions about the capability of Traveller computers;
I suspect that a lot of the Traveller sensor arrays would have problems
with being swamped with data.  Short answer is, you can probably find the
communicator if you know where to look, but if you're doing a general scan
the Tigress' noise reduction software will probably delete said 
communication as probable noise long before any human sees it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 11:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 10:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
Message-ID: <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:

>David P. Summers wrote:
>> Missiles are very damaging.  However, they also can be intercepted.
>> The utility of missiles depends on how many missiles you have vs how
>> much point defense you foe has.
>
>Yes, I'd noticed that too.  In particular, the existing missiles and
>launchers can be greatly upgraded to achieve much better results
>against point defense for rather little cost.

Of course, point defense can be greatly upgraded with fairly little 
effort to achieve much better results against missiles, so the point
may be moot.  If nothing else, a short range countermissile capable 
of taking out an incoming missile is probably less than 10% of the 
weight and cost of the incoming missile.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 12:05:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Mon Aug  5 11:05:12 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
In-Reply-To: <200208051354.MCT02502@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020805130540.00a575f0@minn.net>

At 09:54 AM 8/5/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>Leslie Bates says
>>What about processed cheese food
>>products in the Third Imperium?)

One of my landladies (the one I based the character of Dana Wolfsburg on)
flippantly said that she thought "cheese food" was something that should be
consumed by cheese beings, and that somewhere there should be a planet of
the sentient cheeses.

>This is along the lines of "great cultural contributions by 
>the Solomani".
>
>Baseball
>Beer

Pizza!

>SPAM
>Processed cheese product(in all its various forms)
>Artificial butter flavored topping
>French fries
>Sliced bread

Chocolate Chip ice cream!

>Microwave oven
>Burrito
>"Sports" drink (including canned sweat)
>Pop music
>"Shtick" (I'm sorry, I can't see a Vilani stand-up comic)

I tried to envision a Vilani Stand up comic, he was a member of the
comedian caste who would stand on the stage and recite the numbers of each
of the jokes. This of course leads to the Terrans having a practically
unassailable advantage in the field of joke warfare. (Although some Vilani
confessed to being baffled by Monty Python's Undertaker Sketch.)


Les
==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 12:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Aug  5 11:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] dangerous children
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020730204623.00a5e300@minn.net>
References: <5hbeku4e63psd36ctqa7c96oubp4h39kg7@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <3D4EDD10.12761.2F9903@localhost>

On 30 Jul 2002, at 20:46, Leslie Bates wrote:
> In 101 Corporations, page 28:
> 
> 	"Little is known about the inner workings of the Famille', although the
> dark rumours of inbreeding with eugenic intent, rampant substance abuse,
> and child labour are so prevalent they may be at least partly true (and the
> High Energy and Starship Weapons Divisions are both led by children of
> dubious stability).

"This is getting out of hand. Now there are two of them."

"We should never have made this bargain."

(I still haven't got 101 Corps, but will in a few weeks...)

/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 12:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Scott Ayres)
Date: Mon Aug  5 11:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] 40-year olds
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D06@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <20020805182204.21845.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> wrote:
> >From: Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> >>> Why does the Army do this?  Because 40 year
> olds, as a...  [snip]

> "Unless you already have time in. If you served 4
years in the Navy(or any service) when you were
younger, you could actually join up to age 39 to have
your 20 years before 55. I was casually looking into
joining the NJ Air National Guard (because the Corps
sure as s*** isn't going to take my sorry out of shape
butt back at this age, and because I'm married, a
father, and don't feel like running around swamps
anymore). I thought I would be automatically
disqualified  after age 35, but my previous time in
counts, so I actually have some leeway should I decide
to join.  The nice thing is I woudn't have to go to
boot camp.  The not-so-nice thing is the ANG doesn't
have dress blues."


Supply & Demand.  That's all it is.  In my class for
Army helicopter school, we had a 39-yr 2LT w/ 2-yrs of
prior service (18 yrs before as an E-3): the Army
needed pilots.  Later, I saw an USAF pilot trainee w/o
a spleen: the USAF needed pilots.  FWIW, the USAF (&
ANG) do have "dress blues" as well as the Army, but
they're nowhere near as pretty as the USMC's.  IMO,
the AF blues look more like a cocktail party ensemble.

In my experience, many things are waiverable.  Not
all, but many.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 12:31:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Mon Aug  5 11:31:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Aircraft carrier displacement
In-Reply-To: <200208051705.KAA00273@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <20020805183051.18082.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>

 Would anyone here know how many displacement tons a
U.S. aircraft carrier like the "Enterprise" would be?
Needing to get a visualization in my head for an
interplanetary structure in my game. 
Any help is appreciated.
thanks.


=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 13:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Aug  5 12:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Aircraft carrier displacement
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D0D@USCHM203>

 Daniel Tackett wrote:

> Would anyone here know how many displacement tons a
>U.S. aircraft carrier like the "Enterprise" would be?
>Needing to get a visualization in my head for an
>interplanetary structure in my game. 
>Any help is appreciated.
>thanks.

About 18,000 tons

Check out Ken Pick's excellent essay on Traveller starship tonnage. It's on
the Freelance Traveller website, I believe.

Basically:

	5 tons gross ship displacement(in today's nautical terms)=1
displacement ton in Traveller.

These are approximate, and there are some fairly complicated variables, but
this is a good rule of thumb.

The essay also lists some typical ships and their Traveller tonnage:

Destroyer USS Cole (TL9): 8400 tons full-load = approx 1700 Tons Traveller 
Carrier USS Enterprise (TL7): 75000 tons std, 90000 full-load = approx.
18000 Tons Traveller 
Light Carrier HMS Invincible (TL8): 16000 tons std, 20000 full-load =
approx. 4000 Tons Traveller 
Carrier USS Nimitz (TL8-9): 80000 tons std, 92000 full-load = approx. 18000
Tons Traveller 
(Moderately-armored) 
Battlecruiser HMS Hood (TL5): 42000 tons std, 45000 full-load = approx. 7500
Tons Traveller 
Typical "Treaty Cruiser" (TL5-6): 10000 tons std, 13000 full-load = approx.
2000 Tons Traveller 
Armored Cruiser KMS Graf Spee (TL6): 12000 tons std, 16000full-load =
approx. 2600 Tons Traveller 
Battlecruiser KMS Scharnhorst (TL6): 32000 tons std, 38000 full-load =
approx. 6300 Tons Traveller 
Carrier HMS Ark Royal (TL6): 22000 tons std, 28000 full-load = approx. 4500
Tons Traveller 
Carrier USS Enterprise (TL6): 20000 tons std, 26000 full-load = approx. 4300
Tons Traveller 
(Heavily-armored) 
Battleship USS Oregon (TL4): 10000 tons std, 12000 full-load = approx. 1700
Tons Traveller 
Battleship HMS Majestic (TL4): 15000 tons std, 16000 full-load = approx.
2300 Tons Traveller 
Battleship HMS Dreadnaught (TL5): 18000 tons std, 22000 full-load = approx.
3000 Tons Traveller 
Battleship USS Arizona (TL5): 25000 tons std, 33000 full-load = approx. 5000
Tons Traveller 
Battleship KMS Bismarck (TL6): 42000 tons std, 50000 full-load = approx.
7000 Tons Traveller 
Battleship USS New Jersey (TL6): 45000 tons std, 58000 full-load = approx.
8000 Tons Traveller 
Battleship HIJMS Yamato (TL6): 60000 tons std, 72000 full-load = approx.
10000 Tons Traveller 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 13:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 12:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The cloak
Message-ID: <20020805193223.638E04510@mo120usjc.palm.net>

The favorite obsuring garment of the ages.  From knights hiding their armor & swords to Kent Allard striking terror in the hearts of evil doers...it has been part of popular fiction.

How common are they in your Traveller universe?


----------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
IHTFP - FNORD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 13:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Mon Aug  5 12:35:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Aircraft carrier displacement
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D0D@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <20020805193342.51708.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com>

Thank you very much. This is a big help. Thank you
also for all the additional information as well.
Some surprizing numbers.






> Check out Ken Pick's excellent essay on Traveller
> starship tonnage. It's on
> the Freelance Traveller website, I believe.
> 
> Basically:
> 
> 	5 tons gross ship displacement(in today's nautical
> terms)=1
> displacement ton in Traveller.
> 
> These are approximate, and there are some fairly
> complicated variables, but
> this is a good rule of thumb.
> 
> The essay also lists some typical ships and their
> Traveller tonnage:
> 
> Destroyer USS Cole (TL9): 8400 tons full-load =
> approx 1700 Tons Traveller 
> Carrier USS Enterprise (TL7): 75000 tons std, 90000
> full-load = approx.
> 18000 Tons Traveller 
> Light Carrier HMS Invincible (TL8): 16000 tons std,
> 20000 full-load =
> approx. 4000 Tons Traveller 
> Carrier USS Nimitz (TL8-9): 80000 tons std, 92000
> full-load = approx. 18000
> Tons Traveller 
> (Moderately-armored) 
> Battlecruiser HMS Hood (TL5): 42000 tons std, 45000
> full-load = approx. 7500
> Tons Traveller 
> Typical "Treaty Cruiser" (TL5-6): 10000 tons std,
> 13000 full-load = approx.
> 2000 Tons Traveller 
> Armored Cruiser KMS Graf Spee (TL6): 12000 tons std,
> 16000full-load =
> approx. 2600 Tons Traveller 
> Battlecruiser KMS Scharnhorst (TL6): 32000 tons std,
> 38000 full-load =
> approx. 6300 Tons Traveller 
> Carrier HMS Ark Royal (TL6): 22000 tons std, 28000
> full-load = approx. 4500
> Tons Traveller 
> Carrier USS Enterprise (TL6): 20000 tons std, 26000
> full-load = approx. 4300
> Tons Traveller 
> (Heavily-armored) 
> Battleship USS Oregon (TL4): 10000 tons std, 12000
> full-load = approx. 1700
> Tons Traveller 
> Battleship HMS Majestic (TL4): 15000 tons std, 16000
> full-load = approx.
> 2300 Tons Traveller 
> Battleship HMS Dreadnaught (TL5): 18000 tons std,
> 22000 full-load = approx.
> 3000 Tons Traveller 
> Battleship USS Arizona (TL5): 25000 tons std, 33000
> full-load = approx. 5000
> Tons Traveller 
> Battleship KMS Bismarck (TL6): 42000 tons std, 50000
> full-load = approx.
> 7000 Tons Traveller 
> Battleship USS New Jersey (TL6): 45000 tons std,
> 58000 full-load = approx.
> 8000 Tons Traveller 
> Battleship HIJMS Yamato (TL6): 60000 tons std, 72000
> full-load = approx.
> 10000 Tons Traveller 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 13:46:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 12:46:14 2002
Subject: [TML] The cloak
Message-ID: <200208051944.MDF01639@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Mark Urbin" asks
>How common are they in your Traveller universe?

Fairly common.  I happen to own one in RL (dark brown) that 
is fairly short (just past the waist).

Hate to say it, though, it doesn't blend in in RL.  For that, 
in cooler weather, I have a black London Fog trenchcoat. 
Short military haircut, black suit, black trenchcoat, black 
gloves.  Non-descript four-door dark blue car (Crown Vic, 
Taurus, or Intrepid - the Muldermobile or similar).

Want to have fun?  Just go to the park where Vince Foster 
killed himself, get out of the car, and walk around.  
Especially if there are two of you - the local spring/fall 
picnic crowd will scatter like quail when they see you (the 
first time I did this, it was an accident - now it's just 
entertainment).

You won't have to say a thing, or impersonate anyone.  People 
will run.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 13:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Strain)
Date: Mon Aug  5 12:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020805020920.12005.8746.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <009601c23cba$8a780420$64a85940@dixienet.com>

I do believe a challenge has been accepted.

We have an opponent, and a GM. Do we have others?

missingjn@dixie-net.com 


-------------------------------------> From: Flykiller@aol.com
> Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 19:56:53 EDT
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>>Think you can handle that?
> Yes, I'd love to.
> 

DATA from Mr Roseberry's post:    [TML] Re: meduim navies

> 
> Initial Fleets for Lunion, Lanth, and Regina subsectors using
> "meduim navies".
> 
> Initial Fleets, Lunion subsector
> 
> Imperial Navy MCr 2,835,544.748
> 
> Wardn. MCr 55
> Smoug MCr 14700
> Adabicci MCr 322,000
> Zaibon MCr 148.75
> Spirelle MCr 312,375
> Derchon MCr 36,225
> Lunion MCr 3,080,000
> Shirine MCr 252
> Harvoset MCr 14175
> Perisephone MCr 28350
> Capon MCr 17,850
> Strouden MCr 3,465,000
> 
> This is peace time budget x10, using "meduim navies".
> Note: I'm using supp3 to start, so Wardn is independent.
> 
> Initial Fleets, Lanth subsector
> 
> Imperial Navy MCr 68668.554
> 
> Extolay MCr 40250
> Lanth MCr 220.5
> Dinom MCr 63
> Ghandi MCr 9.98
> Wypoc MCr 267.75
> Quopist MCr 1592.5
> Treece MCr 105,000
> Ivendo MCr 332.5
> Tureded MCr 178.5
> Equus MCr 66500
> Rhise MCr 31.85
> Icetina MCr 126
> Cogri MCr 1785
> Skull MCr 12600
> 
> This is peace time budget x10, using "meduim navies".
> 
> Initial Fleets, Regina subsector
> 
> Imperial Navy MCr 3,957,399.439
> 
> Efate MCr 3,220,000
> Alell MCr 241,500
> Yres MCr 13650
> Menorb MCr 603,750
> Uakye MCr 120.75
> Boughne MCr 189
> Hefry MCr 10.5
> Ruie. MCr 9,100,000
> Jenghe MCr 1365
> Regina MCr 422,625
> Feri MCr 409,500
> Roup MCr 1,260,000
> Yori MCr 23275
> Dentus MCr 157.5
> Wochiers MCr 294,000
> Yorbund MCr 35
> Moughas MCr 308
> Rethe MCr 6,300,000
> Inthe MCr 18200
> Shionthy MCr 20825
> 
> This is peace time budget x10, using "meduim navies".
> 
> Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches
> 








From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 14:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 13:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] vilis landgrab
Message-ID: <200208052005.MDF03952@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mark Urbin is handling Garda-Vilis.  However, I'm looking at 
systems that will probably be trading/communicating with 
Vilis, and I see 

Vilis       Kwon grabs this
Garda-Vilis Urbin grabs this

Choleosti
Arkadia
Stellatio
Frenzie

There seem to be plenty of TNS entries about some of these 
systems, especially during the FFW.  Let me finish Vilis, and 
I'm probably going to branch out over the other four in the 
list.  Unless someone else has done them...
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 14:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Mon Aug  5 13:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] dangerous children
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15DA@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Are you referring to Winnie?  Or is there <shudder> another Spofulam child out there that I'm unaware of?
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: Leslie Bates [mailto:lesbates@minn.net]
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 6:46 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] dangerous children


JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 30 Jul 2002 12:50:01 -0500, Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net>

>>Oh, by the way, was anyone aware that Ditzie has a twin sister? <big evil
>>grin>
>
>A twin sister?  Who survived?

In 101 Corporations, page 28:

	"Little is known about the inner workings of the Famille', although the
dark rumours of inbreeding with eugenic intent, rampant substance abuse,
and child labour are so prevalent they may be at least partly true (and the
High Energy and Starship Weapons Divisions are both led by children of
dubious stability).



==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 14:20:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Mon Aug  5 13:20:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Landgrab claim: Asmodeus/Querion
References: <3D4C1132.3C2572D6@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <001e01c23cbd$c1f77220$1700a8c0@imogen>

I'd like to claim Asmodeus/Querion.

Okay, I know I haven't finished Efate/Regina yet but I do have  a
lot written for  Efate  already  ...  so  I'll  be  posting  that
soon-ish.  Its just that I've  been  looking  for  a  good  Skaro
look-alike and I think Asmodeus would fit nicely (nuke war  ended
in 1005)!

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 14:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Mon Aug  5 13:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Aircraft carrier displacement
In-Reply-To: <20020805183051.18082.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <200208051705.KAA00273@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020805152430.00a5b340@minn.net>

Daniel Tackett <haegen2001@yahoo.com>
 wrote:
> Would anyone here know how many displacement tons a
>U.S. aircraft carrier like the "Enterprise" would be?
>Needing to get a visualization in my head for an
>interplanetary structure in my game. 
>Any help is appreciated.
>thanks.

From Jane's Pocket Book of Major Warships (1973):

U.S.S. Enterprise

75,700 Standard

89,600 Full Load

Hope this helps.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 14:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Mon Aug  5 13:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] dangerous children
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15DA@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020805152802.00a5e9f0@minn.net>

"DeGraff, Jesse" <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> wrote:

>Are you referring to Winnie?  Or is there <shudder> another Spofulam child
out there that I'm unaware of?
>Jesse

>>On Tue, 30 Jul 2002 12:50:01 -0500, Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net>
>
>>>Oh, by the way, was anyone aware that Ditzie has a twin sister? <big evil
>>>grin>

I haven't heard of Winnie.

I only made a Piperesque mention of the twin in Part Three of FiHP.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 14:30:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Aug  5 13:30:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Landgrab
In-Reply-To: <001e01c23cbd$c1f77220$1700a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <B9742E4B.68481%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

For al of you who have posted your landgrabs to the web, please check
http://spinwardmarches.com to see if you are linked.  If not, please drop m=
e
an email with the URL.

Thanks, Tod

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 14:32:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Mon Aug  5 13:32:09 2002
Subject: [TML] dangerous children
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15DB@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Winnie's in the "Famille Spofulam Winter 97" catalog .pdf available at the BITS site.  She's also been mentioned at least one other time that know of in the Type J Racing Yacht design posted to the TML by Ian.

Jesse
Haven't read Piper ;)


-----Original Message-----
From: Leslie Bates [mailto:lesbates@minn.net]
Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 1:28 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] dangerous children


"DeGraff, Jesse" <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> wrote:

>Are you referring to Winnie?  Or is there <shudder> another Spofulam child
out there that I'm unaware of?
>Jesse

>>On Tue, 30 Jul 2002 12:50:01 -0500, Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net>
>
>>>Oh, by the way, was anyone aware that Ditzie has a twin sister? <big evil
>>>grin>

I haven't heard of Winnie.

I only made a Piperesque mention of the twin in Part Three of FiHP.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================

_______________________________________________
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TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
Message-ID: <200208052113.g75LD2w04199@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
>Subject: RE: [TML] Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"

  FWIW, a rider BatRon is 93+% riders to ~7% fighter
tonnage. Their role? (SMC, pps. 35-6)

  "Fighter Division: ... Fighters are used for long range
patrols and recon within a system, allows (sic) the carrier
advanced warning of enemy ... In addition, the fighters are
expected to hold the screen against enemy vessels until the
Riders are ready to begin* a battle".

  *they may not bother practicing much for the role "screen 
against enemy vessels until the surviving Riders are aboard
the tender/carrier and ready to Jump", as _those_ fighters 
will have executed their last mission :|

  Steven Hudson

...
>It is canon, Traveller has whopping big fleet carriers (not to mention the
>Tigress class BBs) which carry huge number of fighters.
>
>The imperium obviously believes they have a need for large numbers of
>fighters. AFAIK carrier squadrons are equated with cruiser squadrons (see
>Fighting Ships) and presumably carry out some of the same missions. Commerce
>raiding is possible but would you need a fleet carrier for that?
>
>So given that carrier squadrons exist if they are totally useless against
>other cruiser squadrons what would they be used for. I submit it could also
>mean that point defence systems are not as good as the navy would have us
>believe.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:23:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:23:22 2002
Subject: [TML] nuclear detonations in vaccuum
In-Reply-To: <152.119d95a9.2a7787fd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20805.135712.9K3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>  >>I'd like to see a discussion of nuclear weapons effects in a 
>  >>vaccuum.  since there's no blast then it seems to me that 
>  >>ablative or reflec for heat, and simple armor for radiation, 
>  >>should adequately deal with all but very close detonations.  
>  >>I wonder how much neutron irradiation it would take to 
>  >>embrittle a hull ....
>  >>
>  > 
>  >It's mostly "soft" x-rays.  Not thermal radiation.  You get 
>  >conversion to infrared only in an atmosphere (the nitrogen in 
>  >the air absorbs the x-rays, becoming the "fireball" and re-
>  >radiating at lower wavelengths.  During the Spartan ABM 
>  >design work, they found that x-rays couple much more 
>  >effectively with a metal bodied craft than the infrared does -
>  >the damage penetrates much deeper into the warhead.
>
> and what exactly is the nature of that damage?  did they do testing on any 
> kind of armor?  does enough radiation penetrate "regardless of armor" to 
> cause significant interior damage or personnel casualties?  when x-rays 
> couple with metal, does that mean the metal absorbs them?

The damage depends on *how much* energy is absorbed. Small amounts just
damage crystal structure a bit. Larger amounts cause heating. the
amounts from a *close* detonation deposit so much energy that the
material (metal, rock, water, air, whatever) flashes into plasma
*explosively*). 

The air absorbing x-rays and converting to a high energy plasma is what
cause the shock wave and thermal flash from a nuke inside an
atmosphere. 

Metal just absorbs more of the x-rays in a shorter distance. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:24:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:24:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
In-Reply-To: <20020730203333.87379.qmail@web20419.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20805.140900.3G8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>
>>1 5-gallon bucket, a bag of cement, some water and mixing time and a
>
>>rowboat have served wiseguys well for many decades now.
>>
>>All it requires is one East River.
>
> Weighted bodies dropped into water turn up with alarming frequency --
> alarming especially to the wiseguys who are trying to keep the body
> from being found.  We just had several turn up in a reservoir in
> California not long ago -- I guess it was last year.  This does
> remain a fair solution at all tech levels ("Og, you tie stone to foot
> of dead guy with vine.  I make raft."), but is not quite as sure as
> I'd like.  

There are a number of moderately simple ways that are "good enough"
*if* you don't expect anyone to come looking for the person. 

In that case, you can just use a bathtub, sharp knife and a meat
grinder. Flush away the evidence. Grinding up the bones is a *pain*,
but doable.

Use lots of bleach in the tub, and the toilet and try not to splash,
just in case.

If you've got an isolated area, and access to liquid nitrogen you can
produce liquid oxygen, and use that to cremate the body. 

In a pure oxygen atmosphere, even fresh meat and bone will burn quite
well. with LOX, you'll have to be careful not to cause an explosion.

Industrial strength hydrogen peroxide tends to dissolve flesh, but also
tends to explode on contact with things like blood.

Oh yeah. Time is an important factor. If there's no rush, you can do a
much better job, with far less mess.

Doh!

I wonder how well a body exposed to LN2 or LH2 would shatter when
struck? That'd be one way to reduce the body to a nice powder (or
"slush" after it thaws) for easy disposal. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:26:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:26:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
In-Reply-To: <200207311718.LTT06680@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20805.142332.0S0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> WriteFool says
>>From the standpoint of pure economic and management 
>>efficiency I would have to agree, but on the other hand by 
>>creating the traditions and institutional memory of never 
>>giving up on a case and instilling that in to each 
>>generation of policefolk, it might help foster a certain 
>>determination as well as giving some comfort to victims' 
>>families that everything can and will be done and 
>>their losses and justice will not be forgotten.
>
> I would imagine that such perseverance, or lack thereof, 
> varies from planet to planet across the Imperium.  While they 
> might do things like this on, say, Regina, who can say how 
> they run things - even at the Imperial capital.
>
> In Washington, D.C., the homicide department is in complete 
> shambles.  I sometimes wonder if the powers that be intend 
> for it to be so.  Cases are lost, forgotten, misplaced...
>
> And the coroner's office is a complete joke.  It's a sore 
> point for the residents, but nothing, I repeat, nothing has 
> been done to remedy the situation.  

Of course not. The residents can't vote. 

Or did they at least get *local* elections a while back?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:28:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:28:21 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <200208052113.g75LD2w04199@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028582658.5758.ajackson@ping>

Steven Hudson writes:
> 
>   "Fighter Division: ... Fighters are used for long range
> patrols and recon within a system, allows (sic) the carrier
> advanced warning of enemy ... In addition, the fighters are
> expected to hold the screen against enemy vessels until the
> Riders are ready to begin* a battle".

Two problems:

1)  In space, it tends to be easier to simply tack a great big sensor on the
main ship.
2)  The fighters can't hold a screen if the capital ships can just ignore the
screen and charge the carriers.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPAEBKEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPAEBKEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
Message-ID: <p04330104b974a06d3f80@[198.123.22.180]>

At 5:30 PM +0800 8/5/02, Antony Farrell wrote:
>It is canon, Traveller has whopping big fleet carriers (not to mention the
>Tigress class BBs) which carry huge number of fighters.
>
>The imperium obviously believes they have a need for large numbers of
>fighters. AFAIK carrier squadrons are equated with cruiser squadrons (see
>Fighting Ships) and presumably carry out some of the same missions. Commerce
>raiding is possible but would you need a fleet carrier for that?


Fighters are useful for point defense, but they have other uses.  One 
is tracking down smaller targets and ground support.  (Sure a meson 
gun makes a big "boom", but if you want to stop dozen or hundreds of 
little scattered ships or if you want to support troops on the 
ground, then fighters become a lot more useful).  Another is sensor 
pickets (esp if allow them to set up a sensor net to form one big 
array).  There was at least one more use I've forgotten....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805084630.018ca4e0@192.168.0.1>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804192145.024cac00@192.168.0.1> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020804192145.024cac00@192.168.0.1> <20020805191412.A25687@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020805084630.018ca4e0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020806074241.A27684@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> Kwai Ching is an interesting example.  They really have no choice
> but to produce the majority, if not all of their food.

That's true for basically *all* vacuum worlds with more than a few
million people.  As I said, Kwai Ching is *above* the median trade
level per capita.


> They are not part of an established trading federation, and their imports 
> are spotty at best due to ethically challenged merchant activity.
> (that's according to GT: Behind the Claw, and the example Tim is using.)

I'm not using BTC at all -- I'm using the trade rules in Far Trader.

Most plaets have *less* ability to trade for food.


> To produce a variety of food that would keep a large population
> happy requires a large amount of space, water and energy.

That's true regardless of whether the world has air or not.


> If you have bulk traders making a regular run through the system,
> and there is an Agricultural planet on their loop, the rockball can
> get a wide variety of foodstuffs without the large markup.

Try running the numbers to see if it works.  You might be surprised.
Don't underestimate how much it costs to ship food for a few billion
people.


> If it's not economically viable to produce 100% of the food locally,
> why should they do it?

That's the whole point -- it *is* economically viable to produce 100%
of the food locally.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1028582658.5758.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1028582658.5758.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <p04330105b974a1517539@[198.123.22.180]>

At 2:24 PM -0700 8/5/02, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Steven Hudson writes:
>>
>>    "Fighter Division: ... Fighters are used for long range
>>  patrols and recon within a system, allows (sic) the carrier
>>  advanced warning of enemy ... In addition, the fighters are
>>  expected to hold the screen against enemy vessels until the
>>  Riders are ready to begin* a battle".
>
>Two problems:
>
>1)  In space, it tends to be easier to simply tack a great big sensor on the
>main ship.

Well, that isn't in the base GT rules or in CT (or in MT, I'm not 
sure).  The proposed rules I've seen limit sensor size to ship size 
(so if you make your ship effectively bigger, then your own 
dectection is easier) but if you are going to modify the rules, then 
you should be able to allow scattered fighters to relay their data 
and set up a virtual array much bigger than any a ship can carry....

>2)  The fighters can't hold a screen if the capital ships can just ignore the
>screen and charge the carriers.


Yeah, they can serve as point defense (ie a screen against missiles)
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:56:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:56:13 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <p04330105b974a1517539@[198.123.22.180]>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028584537.113.ajackson@ping>

David P. Summers writes:

> Well, that isn't in the base GT rules or in CT (or in MT, I'm not 
> sure).

Well, neither have much in the way of larger sensors.  Still, even in GT you'll
need 25 cockpit bridges to get the sensor capabilities of one command bridge.

> Yeah, they can serve as point defense (ie a screen against missiles)

Well, true but not the normal meaning of 'screen', since that does nothing to
prevent the larger ship from getting within energy weapons range.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:57:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:57:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805090845.01831e50@192.168.0.1>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804223247.0237e008@192.168.0.1> <20020804232303.7408.33320.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <006701c23c1f$2baff600$195d8690@computer> <5.1.0.14.0.20020804223247.0237e008@192.168.0.1> <20020805202103.D25687@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020805090845.01831e50@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020806075541.B27684@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> It was determined that published trade rules didn't fit the big picture.

That may be so, but they are the official rules for the official
universe.  I agree that variant rules may give variant results.


> Large bulk traders were needed in core sectors to make it work.

They are needed under the existing rules, too.

Either way, it takes on the order of a billion dtons per year to feed
an average pop-9 world to a modern level.  That's a few million-dton
superfreighters arriving every day.  I haven't seen any canonical
sources that suggest such a level of shipping.


> I agree with you in places like the Marches, or even more frontier
> settings.

I'm basing my figures mostly on the core sectors.  If you don't like
the results, then publish your own trade rules.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
References: <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Of course, point defense can be greatly upgraded with fairly little 
> effort to achieve much better results against missiles,

It can?  When I tried, I got virtually negligible improvements.


> If nothing else, a short range countermissile capable of taking out
> an incoming missile is probably less than 10% of the weight and cost
> of the incoming missile.

You can make a countermissile a lot cheaper than the published
standard missile (yes, about 10%), but the problem is that you can
make the ship-killing missiles much cheaper and smaller as well (for
the same effectiveness).  Multiple-warhead missiles are extremely
difficult to stop in their terminal phase.

You would also have to modify the space combat rules to allow
point-defense missile fire.  Then there's the headache of missiles
with their own point defense against countermissiles :-/


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028585608.7515.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> Anthony Jackson wrote:
> > Of course, point defense can be greatly upgraded with fairly little 
> > effort to achieve much better results against missiles,
> 
> It can?  When I tried, I got virtually negligible improvements.

Sorry.  You first have to throw out the ROF modifiers in GT and use standard
GURPS rules ;)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
In-Reply-To: <3D4E5E7E.26225.7DEF71@localhost>
References: <137.122edd2d.2a7ee774@aol.com> <B972E6BF.67D85%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <3D4E5E7E.26225.7DEF71@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020806081755.D27684@freeman.little-possums.net>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> And for those who have money to burn:
> 
> TL Guidance Vol Mass AV MCr   G-Turns Warhead Hits Damage  Range Comm
> 15 Full-Ind 7   7.32 3  5.232 4/4     500ktx2 2D6  1/25-79 0     10L
[...]
> Probably way too expensive for most people, but it should ruin the day 
> of any smaller vessel that runs into a field of them.

Does this one last longer than 12 hours?  At 5 MCr a pop, it seems
like they would have to ruin a *lot* of people's days to be
worthwhile.

Not something you can just emplace by the thousands in traffic lanes
in the hope that one or two hit, and too slow to get in range if you
did.  It looks like it would only be useful in or near planetary
orbit.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:22:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:22:06 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020801093246.4c070802@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20805.143023.3i7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 04:07 PM 7/31/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>>"Glenn M. Goffin" says
>>>So, John, are you a sociopath in real life, or do you just 
>>>play one in RPGs?
>>
>>In real life, the Army saw fit to conduct a psychological 
>>evaluation, and on the commander's recommendation, I was sent 
>>to sniper school.  Later, when I became a software 
>>consultant...
>
> Hey!  They gave me a pysch eval before I was assigned to sniper school!
> Evidently, I was just sociopathic enough for their purposes...

And we love you for it. <g>

Which reminds me:

http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp08042002.html

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1028585608.7515.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1028585608.7515.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020806083856.E27684@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Sorry.  You first have to throw out the ROF modifiers in GT and use
> standard GURPS rules ;)

Ah, that makes more sense :)

Even so, have you considered the problem of loss of accuracy with
higher-RoF weapons of the same overall size?

If you allow Vehicles-designed missiles, a typical target might be a
Size -1 object closing at 300 mi/s with 12 gee maneuverability and
effective DR 600.  A missile rack would launch up to 20 of these in a
salvo.  Depending upon whether your opponent respects the Imperial
Rules of War, they may or may not have nuclear warheads.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
In-Reply-To: <20020806081755.D27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3D4E5E7E.26225.7DEF71@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D4FA627.26089.39E708@localhost>

On 6 Aug 2002 at 8:17, Timothy Little wrote:

> Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > And for those who have money to burn:
> > 
> > TL Guidance Vol Mass AV MCr   G-Turns Warhead Hits Damage  Range Comm
> > 15 Full-Ind 7   7.32 3  5.232 4/4     500ktx2 2D6  1/25-79 0     10L
> [...]
> > Probably way too expensive for most people, but it should ruin the day 
> > of any smaller vessel that runs into a field of them.
> 
> Does this one last longer than 12 hours?  At 5 MCr a pop, it seems
> like they would have to ruin a *lot* of people's days to be
> worthwhile.

No, I forgot to mention that this model can run the sensor and brain 
for 7 days.
 
> Not something you can just emplace by the thousands in traffic lanes
> in the hope that one or two hit, and too slow to get in range if you
> did.  It looks like it would only be useful in or near planetary
> orbit.

That's the real problem with mines, I guess. For more range you'd 
probably be best off just dumping lots of fully-independant missiles, 
but they won't have much endurance. The only way round this is to put a 
fusion plant in, and they're fairly big by missile standards - FF&S 
PEMS arrays use an annoying amount of power.

Perhaps a CAPTOR style sensor platform with a number of small missiles 
on board would be a workable comprimise, though it'd start getting 
expensive real quick, and it wouldn't be long before most design 
committees turned it into a small battle-station by adding point 
defence, etc. I'm sure.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:45:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:45:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Astronomy Boffin Question
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEKAIKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020805110124.358f5e36@pop.mindspring.com>

At 10:27 PM 8/4/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>How big can a rocky asteroid be and still be irregular?

At a guess, about 100 miles diameter.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:46:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:46:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEKFEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <m3y9bndi8f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020805112347.358f6ef0@pop.mindspring.com>

At 01:07 PM 8/4/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>This brings up an interesting point. Does it go the other way too? Most U.S.
>soldiers had a good month between the time they left CONUS and the time they
>hit the lines in Europe, even during the most active time of the war. Today
>soldiers in Georgia can be in a war zone in less than 48 hours. Does this
>also contribute to PTSD? How does it effect their combat readiness.

It leads to more stateside training and readiness drills.  I took part in
REFORGER 85 (REdeployment of FORces to GERmany, and exercise where troops
were airlifted to depots in Europe where vehicles and heavy gear were
waiting for us.. all we brought along was personal kit.)  In preparation
for this, we spent a great deal of time going over things like loading
drills, NBC warfare, squad tactics and the like.  There was no assumption
that we'd have time to train before entering combat.

>ObTrav: This would not be a problem for interstellar troops, since minimum
>travel time is a week. Maximum travel time could be much higher. (Which is
>why I especially have a problem with GT designs which use bunkrooms.) Could
>a really large troop transport incorporate a habitat module to use as a
>training area? It strikes me that a holoventure module might work really
>well for battledress units and vehicle drivers (tank, fighter, etc.) but
>that regular troops will need more room to practice small unit tactics,
>unless the holoventure studios work as good as ST holodecks.

The designs in Ground Forces include firing ranges and other small training
areas, but as you say, the troops could be in cramped quarters for a good
time.  Which could be an invitation for more adventures.  This was partly
inspired by a Bill Maudlin cartoon showing troops in bunks stacked four
high with no room to breath, and the First Sergeant standing there saying
"Look, th' schedule calls for calisthenics, so we're gonna start with the
left eyebrow..."

Here's a fun game to play if you have Ground Forces.  You are a Force
Lieutenant assigned to a Caen-class ship.  You are lying in your bunk, and
feeling a bit peckish.  How do you get to the officer's mess?  :)
-- 

Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.
gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html

Author of GT: Ground Forces                               

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:47:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:47:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <008901c23c6c$e2004c00$be09bd50@martinjd>
References: <20020804173620.8351.57196.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <006901c23c1f$2dd85440$195d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020805114848.35e72ae8@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:42 AM 8/5/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>>
>> Hmm. I've always wanted to run an Arbellatra vs Gustus game. Maybe I
>should
>> actually do it.
>
>You should. Then I can play

Dibs Arbellatra.  One of my favorite people in Traveller history.  Someday
I'd love to write a sourcebook for the Arbellatra Regency.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:49:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:49:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
In-Reply-To: <138.1260f901.2a7f16a9@cs.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020805115125.30d74ca4@pop.mindspring.com>

At 07:45 PM 8/4/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>Speaking of which, does anyone know where I might find a good-condition copy 
>of FTL:2448? I've looked all over the place, both online and in RL and I've 
>never been able to find anything. I've got everything else TriTac's put out 
>and I'm wanting to complete my collection.

Try putting a "wanted" message up on rec.games.frp.marketplace
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:50:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:50:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Warghame ----> Nightmare?
In-Reply-To: <194.af51b03.2a7f3c97@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020805114147.35df3ff4@pop.mindspring.com>

At 10:27 PM 8/4/2002 EDT, you wrote:
>>But seriously, the comm delay and limited intelligence turned a wargame into
>>a nightmare.
>
>Commo delays and limited intelligence are half the fun of a decent wargame. 
>I love large, multiplayer exercises -- the umpires don't have to insert the 
>"fog of war" because the players provide it themselves!

This is why part of the SALUTE intelligence report is "unit." Keeping track
of who is where is vital.  During our massive 5FW game, I was only sure of
the psotion and status of 1st Assault Fleet, which I was personnaly
commanding.  I had no idea if my other fleets were reaching their
objectives, dead, or exceeding their mission orders.  It turns out that one
of my fleets had encountered the Imperial 212th and 100th fleets and been
mauled, but the enocunter led to the Imperial side believing that the
Jewell attack was a feint, and that my main goal was Rhylanor.  Gave me a
few extra months.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
Message-ID: <200208052309.g75N9Gw20035@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
...
>>   "Fighter Division: ... Fighters are used for long range
>> patrols and recon within a system, allows (sic) the carrier
>> advanced warning of enemy ... In addition, the fighters are
>> expected to hold the screen against enemy vessels until the
>> Riders are ready to begin* a battle".
>
>Two problems:
>1)  In space, it tends to be easier to simply tack a great big sensor on the
>main ship.
>2)  The fighters can't hold a screen if the capital ships can just ignore the
>screen and charge the carriers.
  
  Understood; in both cases it's the limitation of the rules system
at work. OTOH, point one could be addressed by making the fighters
into serious endurance / high speed platforms for sustained in-
system ops, but that's getting them into gunship tonnages, and you
might as well make them Jump capable for survivability.

  As MJD indicated recently, point two can only be addressed fully
in a hex-based Trav navals game.

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:11:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:11:32 2002
Subject: [TML] The cloak
Message-ID: <memo.630916@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <200208051944.MDF01639@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
John T. Kwonjtkwon@jtkgroup.comJohn T. KwonIn article 
<200208051944.MDF01639@vmms1.verisignmail.com>, jtkwon@jtkgroup.com (John 
T. Kwon) wrote:

> "Mark Urbin" asks
> >How common are they in your Traveller universe?
> 
> Fairly common.  I happen to own one in RL (dark brown) that 
> is fairly short (just past the waist).
> 
> Hate to say it, though, it doesn't blend in in RL.  

I too wear a cloak - nice big warm brown floor-length one. It's an Arab 
desert cloak I picked up in Tunisia, actually. It is so warm I have been 
outside at 0500 in March, frost & snow on the ground, and the only cold 
bit was my nose...

But I've always been fond of cloaks, and that's only the latest in a 
succession... the first one was purchased when I was about 12.

Once walked across the local town square and heard someone laughing. 
Looked round, a fellow was pointing... but as he had a full Mohican, dyed 
pale blue, I'm not quite sure why he wanted to laugh at someone else's 
choice of attire :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.

(Oh yes, and it used to spook the army - I took one of my big cloaks out 
in the field, rather than bedroll & basha.)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020805114848.35e72ae8@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <008901c23c6c$e2004c00$be09bd50@martinjd>
 <20020804173620.8351.57196.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <006901c23c1f$2dd85440$195d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020805181643.00a65470@minn.net>

At 11:48 AM 8/5/2002, Mr. Penguin Fancier wrote:
>At 11:42 AM 8/5/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>>>
>>> Hmm. I've always wanted to run an Arbellatra vs Gustus game. Maybe I
>>should
>>> actually do it.
>>
>>You should. Then I can play
>
>Dibs Arbellatra.  One of my favorite people in Traveller history.  Someday
>I'd love to write a sourcebook for the Arbellatra Regency.

I'll buy one.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1028584537.113.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1028584537.113.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <p04330106b974b83fd6de@[198.123.22.180]>

At 2:55 PM -0700 8/5/02, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>David P. Summers writes:
>
>>  Well, that isn't in the base GT rules or in CT (or in MT, I'm not
>>  sure).
>
>Well, neither have much in the way of larger sensors.  Still, even 
>in GT you'll
>need 25 cockpit bridges to get the sensor capabilities of one command bridge.

I'm not sure how you are adding these....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:26:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:26:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
References: <20805.140900.3G8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3D4F094F.3020905@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> I wonder how well a body exposed to LN2 or LH2 would shatter when
> struck? That'd be one way to reduce the body to a nice powder (or
> "slush" after it thaws) for easy disposal. 

Probably pretty well.

We used to do that with, erm, various rodentia parts; if you're looking 
for DNA adducts you have to keep 'em cold or they degrade.

I hated doing it though, grinding stuff in LN2 in a ceramic mortar and 
pestle makes this *awful* fingernails-on-chalkboard noises.

Take a LOT of LN2, though.

An industrial meat grinder would do far better and quicker.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
Message-ID: <OFF3DF5114.9F0FA072-ONCA256C0C.0080B0D9@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Mark asked:
>What is the TL of  the Imperium & the Terran Confederation in the Year 
1000 
>setting of T20?

15. The answer is always 15.

;-)  ;-)

(It's Twoday, and the jokes aren't getting any better. It's gonna be a 
l-o-n-g week...)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:31:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:31:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Low-tech naval forces
Message-ID: <200208052330.MDN00014@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Working on the Vilis landgrab, and it occurred to me that 
Vilis would be the source of a lot of the subsector navy - 
the Imperial Navy keeps its ships at Frenzie, the subsector 
capital, but Vilis has a lot more resources - it probably 
supplies a lot of the subsector navy.  The only drawback is 
its low tech level.

It is possible to build something that would satisfy what I 
see as the probable needs of a backwater subsector - if you 
assume that the Imperial Navy is more concerned with the 
Federation of Arden and the Zhodani threat (not to mention 
the occasional Sword World problem).

The major reason that Vilis and Frenzie, and the worlds 
nearby, would welcome Imperial forces is that it allows the 
consolidation of their own local area.  The Imperials get a 
forward base of operations and a ready supply of bodies to 
volunteer for service (billions and billions).

That leaves the local forces to conduct local show the flag 
ops, space control over a small set of systems along a Jump-1 
route from Vilis to Frenzie, and anti-piracy patrol.  Even a 
TL 9 ship should be able to conduct basic anti-piracy patrol 
against the typical "ethically challenged" merchant.

These forces would not last in a stand-up battle against 
major forces such as the Zhodani, but they could exist in 
large enough numbers to make piracy a difficult proposition.

Just working on a small carrier (9000 ton) with 200 fighters, 
and a few small escorts for work around the systems near 
Vilis and Frenzie.  Quite a change from massive TL15 ships 
sporting T meson guns.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
Message-ID: <OF2F3C29E3.8D5E3297-ONCA256C0C.0081279C@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Martin replied:
>>What is the TL of  the Imperium & the Terran Confederation in the
>>Year 1000 setting of T20?
>
>The Impeirum is TL 14 mostly, with Tl 15 just creeping in over the last 
few
>years.

OK, this one's got me puzzled, I'll give a serious reply now.

By the time 1105 rocks around, the Imperium averages out at TL 13 (MT's 
"Average Stellar"), with many TL 14 and quite a few TL 15's ("High 
Stellar").

Given that, I would have thought that in 1100 the Imperium would be at TL 
_13_, with "TL 14 just creeping in"?

What TL is the original AHL (built c.1005)? I thought it was built using 
the best tech at the time, and thus fitted out at TL 14 (with j-5 
drives)??
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
In-Reply-To: <OF2F3C29E3.8D5E3297-ONCA256C0C.0081279C@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <3D4FB7E8.30830.7F429A@localhost>

On 6 Aug 2002 at 9:38, david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:

> Dear Folks -
> 
> Martin replied:
> >>What is the TL of  the Imperium & the Terran Confederation in the
> >>Year 1000 setting of T20?
> >
> >The Impeirum is TL 14 mostly, with Tl 15 just creeping in over the last 
> few
> >years.
> 
> OK, this one's got me puzzled, I'll give a serious reply now.
> 
> By the time 1105 rocks around, the Imperium averages out at TL 13 (MT's 
> "Average Stellar"), with many TL 14 and quite a few TL 15's ("High 
> Stellar").
> 
> Given that, I would have thought that in 1100 the Imperium would be at TL 
> _13_, with "TL 14 just creeping in"?
> 
> What TL is the original AHL (built c.1005)? I thought it was built using 
> the best tech at the time, and thus fitted out at TL 14 (with j-5 
> drives)??

IIRC the Imperial peak TL just nudged over into TL15 during the Rim 
War, which ended in 1009 (I think).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:57:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:57:04 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>

Hi Tim,
   For what it is worth, I started to respond to this thread earlier before 
I had to go to bed and get some sleep...

If you could, so I can check your reasoning:

List all of the modifiers to gunner's skill you are using in a 
missile/antimissile engagement.

Example:

Skill 12 laser gunner
Accuracy 32 Laser platform
Gunnery +6 to hit program

Range penalty -39
ROF bonus +10
Point Defense phase bonus +10
Active Sensor lock +2

Total modifiers:
12+ 32 + 6 + 10 + 10 + 2 - 39 = 72-39 = 32

Rolling an average of 10 on 3d6 means that you will have succeeded by 
22.  Number of missiles successfully engaged in that round will be equal to 
round((22-3)/2,0) or 19/2 rounded up or 10.

Please note that second edition rules for TRAVELLER have bumped up the ROF 
bonus from their current levels to current levels +3.  Also note that 
instead of rolling for each missile being engaged by point defense, you 
roll only once for the entire "turn".  Thus, in the example given above, 
the gunner with skill 12 is engaging a group of incoming missiles *will* 
engage the incoming group and nail 10 missiles.  If less than 10 are 
inbound, that single gunner stops it cold.  If more than 10 are inbound, he 
stops 10 and the rest hit.

                               Hal


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:58:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:58:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
In-Reply-To: <20020805125303.24699.70318.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020805125303.24699.70318.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <j14uku0gpb04hc31qnlhbjes50l610n0t8@4ax.com>

On Mon, 05 Aug 2002 05:53:03 -0700, john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:

>----- Original Message -----
>From: Hunter Gordon <trav@RPGRealms.com>
>Date: Sunday, August 4, 2002 11:45 am
>Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)

 
>> On 8/4/2002 at 4:21 PM Antony Farrell wrote:
 
>> >Was that spam and eggs
>> >or spam, spam egs and spam?
 
>> Ok gotta keep it on topic!
 
>> Pardons if this has actually been covered previously.
 
>> So does SPAM survive the Rule of Man, the Long Night and into the 
>> Third Imperium? If so, is it just a Solomani thing, or have the 
>> Vilani and others come to enjoy this uniquely Terran... ummm .... 
>> stuff? I'm just picturing a group of adventurers finding an old 
>> Rule of Man cache, stockpiled with cans of good old SPAM!

>Ah, you should have saved that question for a Newbie Essay [tm]! ;-)

>Actually, it's quite plausible that SPAM was a significant factor in the 
>Solomanification of former Vilani worlds.  To wit:

>1.  SPAM would likely be included in relief aid to former Vilani worlds 
>ravaged by Terran-introduced pandemics.
>2.  Given that SPAM does not require processing by shugiili, and that 
>SPAM has a relatively long shelf life ("long" in a geological sense, 
>that is), it would go far in breaking the power of the shugiili in 
>Vilani society.
>3.  Add to these factors the relative conservatism of Vilani culture and 
>you find that, once SPAM was introduced on former Vilani-ruled worlds, 
>it tended to remain a staple of the diet on those worlds, thus ensuring 
>that SPAM would continue to be consumed (if not necessarily enjoyed) up 
>into M:1100.
>4.  Until such time as the fine folks at Hormel licensed the production 
>of SPAM on worlds other than Earth, the Terrans would be the only source 
>of this staple, thus economically binding the former Vilani worlds 
>closer to Terra.  Even after SPAM production began on worlds other than 
>Earth, genuine Terran SPAM was held to be superior, commanding premium 
>prices.  This coopted Sharushiid into the ruling SPAM consortium.
>5.  We can thus also see that the Solomani Rim War, with its focus on 
>the capture of Terra, was driven by the desire to control the original 
>point source of SPAM.

>QED. ;-)

>Hmmm.  Perhaps I should write up Hormel Foods as a megacorp using the 
>Universal Corporate Profile from _101 Corporations_....

Do it!

You might want to consider redacting this thread and sending it to Hormel
for giggles - who knows; if they research it, we might gain a couple of new
fans! :)

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:06:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:06:05 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020806083856.E27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028592330.6838.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> Anthony Jackson wrote:
> > Sorry.  You first have to throw out the ROF modifiers in GT and use
> > standard GURPS rules ;)
> 
> Ah, that makes more sense :)
> 
> Even so, have you considered the problem of loss of accuracy with
> higher-RoF weapons of the same overall size?
> 
> If you allow Vehicles-designed missiles, a typical target might be a
> Size -1 object closing at 300 mi/s with 12 gee maneuverability and
> effective DR 600.  A missile rack would launch up to 20 of these in a
> salvo.  Depending upon whether your opponent respects the Imperial
> Rules of War, they may or may not have nuclear warheads.

Ok, that's reasonable.  Now, let's look at a point defense system:

36 megajoule x-ray laser, ROF 8*, compact.  2.0 T, 80 cf, $280k.  Range 7,700
miles, Acc 29
Full stabilization: 0.2T, 8 cf, $40k
9 x rE cell, good for 50 shots: 0.09T, $90k
Dedicated Macroframe: 0.25T, $50k, complexity 11
Targeting +12: $512k (but probably gets a bulk discoute)
Assume gunner skill is 14.  Total effective skill, if aiming for 4 seconds
before firing a burst, is 43 (and a miss by 1 hits, so call it 44).  Note that
there are several different calculations of Acc in space combat (Vehicles and
Space 3e both have different systems), all of which disagree; with the Vehicles
system beam weapons in space have no Acc cap, effective skill would be 55, and
hitting is no challenge.  That's probably the most realistic one, too).

The missile is being fired at one second before impact (300 mile range, +300
miles for velocity, we'll ignore this making no sense) and the range penalty is
34, -1 for size, so chance of hitting once is 9.  We can fire two bursts easily
enough; in fact, if we start firing a bit sooner we'll also get two rolls at 8-
and 4 rolls at 7-, which means the chance of leaking through is around 10%. 
Obviously, using the Vehicles acc rule, the hit roll is 20 or less, and we
might as well drop to single shot with 1 turn of aiming, which means 20 seconds
before impact (effective range 6600) there's still a 50% chance of hitting, and
your single launcher kills an average 8 missiles before impact.

Hm...that's actually worse than I realized.  Oh well, if they send a really big
swarm of missiles at you simply dump a canister round in front of them.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:07:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:07:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805085604.018d7340@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAELOEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>It is canon, Traveller has whopping big fleet carriers (not to mention the
>Tigress class BBs) which carry huge number of fighters.
>
>The imperium obviously believes they have a need for large numbers of
>fighters. AFAIK carrier squadrons are equated with cruiser squadrons (see
>Fighting Ships) and presumably carry out some of the same missions.
Commerce
>raiding is possible but would you need a fleet carrier for that?

How about fighters are best for use against other fighters? If you are using
fighter for a multitude of missions, planetary support, SDB hunting, as
widely dispersed sensor pickets, etc. then maybe fighters are the best
weapon system to take out these other fighters.

Also while point defense may be very good against missiles I would expect a
fighter to have defenses of its own. For example mini-sand casters which
fire a small enough amount of sand to protect a fighter. Short range
missiles that can be used against missiles or rail guns (VRFGGs), which
might be effective against missiles. All of these weapons would be mere
fractions of a dton in size (If you use GURPS install them as modular grav
system components. They should be small enough to fit in wasted space in the
ship.) Use standard GURPS vehicle combat rules rather than space combat
rules for active defense by the fighter. This gives fighters an edge over
missiles against point defense, which would be a good reason why they are
still used.

If this is true then the best weapon against a fighter might very well be
another fighter. Use the space combat rules for long distance combat, but if
the fighters enter the same hex switch to short range weapons:

"He's too close for the main laser, Switching to guns!"

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:09:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:09:15 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
Message-ID: <OFF9549605.CA2D48D8-ONCA256C0C.008210E4@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Tim said:
>> You want to know what the results are of a 50 lb rock tossed via a
>> Trebuchet against a Far Trader's hull?  GURPS VEHICLES has rules for
>> it.
>
>Yes, this sort of very wide scope is what I like best about GURPS in
>general.  Given Traveller's range of planetary tech levels, this might
>easily come up in a game!

Have I got a deal for you! Follow the links at Beowulf Down to find 
low-tech weaponry! Go to Repair Bays ==> House Rules ==> Weapons Tables 
==> Archaic Missile Weapons ==> Torsion Projectile Weapons. All stats 
written for MT.

Oh, rats. No trebuchet. You'll have to make do with a catapult for now. 
Pen 7 out to 1 km, doing 5D damage. A Free Trader has AC 40 (HG "0" 
armour), so it will only scratch the paint, unless you hit a window (cloth 
AC 5, unless you prefer AC = TL = 8 for the trader). Important safety tip: 
Don't Forget To Close The Window Shutters. In return, my single "pathetic" 
TL 8 pulse laser (Weapons Tables ==> Starship Weapons) has Pen 79 out to 
50 km, doing 75D damage(**). Ouch! Hey, catapults burn really well, don't 
they? What fool made them out of WOOD??

Now where did I stash my old set of siege weapons - under the bed? Dig out 
that trebuchet and set it up, we'll want to fire some rocks at that old 
Beowulf I use as a towed target... ooh, nice hit! OK, I'll have to try 
translate the results into some more stats for you. ;-)

**Bill Hostman and the MT Players' Handbook will disagree with me here, 
saying the damage really should be _750_ dice. Yes, DICE, not hit points. 
However, I think that's really just a bit of overkill. Really. ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:10:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:10:46 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Landgrab of Vilis
Message-ID: <20020806000823.69621.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>

>If I'm doing Vilis, I think I had better do Garda-Vilis, 
>unless someone has already done that one.

That's Tanoose to you, apologist scum!

This message has been brought to you by the Tanoose Freedom League.

*********************************************
The sender of this message takes no responsibility for its content. 
The views expressed in this message are not necessarily the views of
the sender.  The sender has sent this message only as an
accomodation.

--Glenn

P.S.  You have Adventure 5 (I think): Broadsword, don't you?  

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:12:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:12:16 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <p04330106b974b83fd6de@[198.123.22.180]>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028592626.5758.ajackson@ping>

David P. Summers writes:
> 
> I'm not sure how you are adding these....

Cockpit bridge: nominal sensor range (PESA) 20,000
Command bridge: nominal sensor range (PESA) 100,000
Area covered by a given sensor: proportional to square of range.
Note that since, in space, stealth in GT is twice as effective as emissions
cloaking, there's really no point to useing the AESA, the PESA is almost always
more effective.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] vilis landgrab
References: <20020805215729.6122.21835.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <004401c23cde$cd707220$eeb18b90@computer>

> From: "John T. Kwon"
> Mark Urbin is handling Garda-Vilis.  However, I'm looking at
> systems that will probably be trading/communicating with
> Vilis, and I see
>
> Vilis       Kwon grabs this
> Garda-Vilis Urbin grabs this

I was considering doing a landgrab of Vilis a couple of months back. I got
as far as doing the "literature review" before getting bored.

The main thing that struck me was that Vilis, and Garda-Vilis, were settled
_before_ the establishment of the Imperium. In the case of Garda-Vilis, we
know that it was settled by Sword Worlders, and it seems likely that Vilis
was too.

There are also inconsistencies in the sources! One source gives much later
dates for settlement of the worlds. I was thinking that this might indicate
a secondary wave of immigration.

My suggestion would be to talk up the Sword Worldishness of these worlds.
There is absolutely no reason why culturally Sword Worlder worlds couldn't
exist within the Imperium, and it would give a rather clear flavour to the
societies.

I also had some thoughts about the factions of the Ine Givar that were
present, and their relationships with each other, the Tanoose Freedom
League, and Solomani supremicist groups, but I will spare you those.

Oh. One interesting thing is that Vilis isn't the capital of Vilis
subsector, while being the "capital" of a multi-world polity. Is there a
"Count of Vilis", as well as a "Duke of Vilis"?

You are welcome to either use or ignore any of these silly ideas.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <B9732F75.68182%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000001c23cde$c8128b60$6501a8c0@Darla>

While there is probably no way to completely mitigate the horrific
effects of war on the human psyche, I do presume that the Imperium will
use more advanced psychological techniques then now available for the
selection and retention of people in combat units.  I also assume that
the current degree of superstition and stigma associated with getting
mental health treatment will be a thing of the past in the 57th century
--  to the point where a combat veteran receiving treatment for PTSD (or
whatever we are calling it) before discharge will be no more remarkable
than getting medical treatment for physical wounds.

This would also mean that retirements or reassignments due to mental
health reasons would be as common as those due to injuries.  Presumably
combat vets would be offered the opportunity to re-muster into a support
unit, but some might refuse that..."Yeah, got a downcheck from the
Medical Officer when we debriefed from that job on Kinorb.  They offered
me a transfer to Logistics Command, but f**k that - I'm a soldier, not a
civilian wearing a uniform.  So, I took my walking papers and opened up
this place...what can I get for ya?"

In game terms, all this gets rolled up in the survival throw during
character generation.  IMTU, failing a survival throw by 4 or more kills
the character.  Failing by 3 or less represents anything that prevents
the character from continuing in that career.

TWB


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:19:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:19:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Taxes
In-Reply-To: <m33ctujfxj.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <000801c23cde$c9cdcff0$6501a8c0@Darla>

> >
> > IMTU the Imperium gets at 10% tariff on the value of all goods
> > shipped interstellar, plus 10% of the fares charged for interstellar
> > passage.  The Imperium does not levy any direct taxes on
> > individuals.
> 
> Those rates would make it _very_ difficult to make a profit as a free
> trader...
> 

That is true...but for MTU I wanted a Free Trader to be economically
marginal, and probably not practical unless you get an old (i.e. cheap)
ship and/or do some speculative trade on the side.  

TWB


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: 5 Aug 2002 - Freelance Traveller NOT Updated :(
Message-ID: <20020806002701.39745.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Freelance Traveller <editor@freelancetraveller.com>

>Due to an unexpected confluence of factors, mostly involving the 
>effect of weather on human activities (we lost power Friday evening
>when a tree took down some wires down the block during the storm,
>and I spent most of Saturday recovering from a fifteen-hour outage),


Yes, the weather here in Northern California has been quite
atrocious, too.  It was partly cloudy for nearly a week, and the
temperatures stayed below 70F almost all day.  I don't know how we
survived it.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:29:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:29:31 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
Message-ID: <OF83374F94.00E76973-ONCA256C0D.00020AC8@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

John wrote:
>> So does SPAM survive the Rule of Man, the Long Night and into the 
>> Third Imperium?
>
>Ah, you should have saved that question for a Newbie Essay [tm]! ;-)
>
>Actually, it's quite plausible that SPAM was a significant factor in the 
>Solomanification of former Vilani worlds.  To wit:

Brilliant exposition of the balance-of-power conferred to the Terrans by 
their all-conquering secret weapon, Spam! Keyboard kill! <applauds>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:31:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:31:12 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Large Scale Games, One Traveller, one WW3[Long]
Message-ID: <20020806003053.77072.qmail@web20414.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Shadowcat" <res053z0@gten.net>

>The second game was a traveller game at a previous Winter Wars 
>a couple of years after the historic Shadows tournament, which 
>was called Diplomatic Mission. This was a 6 hour game with 24 
>players that dealt with the reopening of trade to a redzoned world.
[deletion]
>This game lasted 6 very hectic hours, and had a grand total of 2 die

[deletion]
>I have seriously considered reconstructing the aspects of this 
>game for another convention, or even as an IRC game, but there 
>are too many problems for it to work as an IRC game.

It would make a great convention game, however.

--Glenn



__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller
Message-ID: <20020806003342.77711.qmail@web20414.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net>
>
>(Across cyberspace, someone asks himself: What about processed
>cheese food products in the Third Imperium?)

They are a staple of starship life, for which the Vilani are
eternally grateful to the Solomani.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:41:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:41:15 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <20020806004033.73952.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>

>I've read a pretty persuasive argument by Charles Pellegrino 
>that outlines every reason why we should, even in the absence 
>of direct contact, assume that a starfaring species, a 
>species capable of manipulating the energies necessary to 
>span stellar distances, is a direct apocalyptic threat to our 
>existence, and that other species must make this same 

[deletion]

>Humans have a built-in cultural inhibition against 
>intraspecies murder - or else murder would be more common.  
>But make it an alien species, and we won't have that 
>inhibition by nature.  Any inhibition we have will come from 
>intellect and not instinct.  And any restraint we have will 
>be easy, perilously easy, to lose.  It will be difficult not 
>to fear them by instinct.

It's clearly part of Grandfather's purpose for humans that he
scattered us among the stars and encouraged the development of the
jump drive among the three major races at about the same time.  That
way, our first discoveries of other starfaring races would be of
other humans, and we would be somewhat less likely to try to
annihilate one another at once.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] vilis landgrab
Message-ID: <200208060043.MDP00769@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Alan Bradley" asks
>The main thing that struck me was that Vilis, and Garda-
>Vilis, were settled _before_ the establishment of the 
>Imperium. In the case of Garda-Vilis, we know that it was 
>settled by Sword Worlders, and it seems likely that Vilis
>was too.

Indeed.

>There are also inconsistencies in the sources! One source 
>gives much later dates for settlement of the worlds. I was 
>thinking that this might indicate a secondary wave of 
>immigration.

There's nothing wrong with multiple waves of settlement.

>My suggestion would be to talk up the Sword Worldishness of 
>these worlds.

I had the idea that they were Sword Worlders, but that the 
families that settled Vilis and Garda-Vilis left the 
homeworld completely - for reasons that remain speculative.  
But I would intimate that there is either a sense of being 
cast out or a sense of abandonment, depending on who tells 
the story.  The reasons that the settlers left may give some 
distinct difference between their culture and the one that 
was left behind.

>There is absolutely no reason why culturally Sword Worlder 
>worlds couldn't exist within the Imperium, and it would give 
>a rather clear flavour to the societies.
>

>I also had some thoughts about the factions of the Ine Givar 
>that were present, and their relationships with each other, 
>the Tanoose Freedom League, and Solomani supremicist groups, 
>but I will spare you those.
>

No, tell me more.

>Oh. One interesting thing is that Vilis isn't the capital of 
>Vilis subsector, while being the "capital" of a multi-world 
>polity. Is there a "Count of Vilis", as well as a "Duke of 
>Vilis"?
>

I have one obscure reference to a Duke of Vilis.  I think 
that Frenzie is the subsector capital because the Imperial 
Naval Base is there - the population there serves mainly as 
the service population for the naval base and yards.  And the 
Naval Base is there because it's a better strategic position 
than Vilis.  I would, however, believe that a lot of the 
local politics (less than the subsector, but entailing the 
little cluster within Jump-1) are dominated by Vilis.

________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020806000604.2646.31858.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <006201c23ce3$2b1f27a0$eeb18b90@computer>

> From: "Douglas E. Berry"
> Dibs Arbellatra.  One of my favorite people in Traveller history.

Unfortunately, if it were to happen, I would have to randomly assign people
to particular positions, and keep them anonymous, in order to ensure that
all communications passed through my hands.

I was thinking about how many players would be needed last night. 7 would be
minimum, 11 would be optimal, more would be too hard to manage.

It would also be a huge amount of work for me to do.

> Someday I'd love to write a sourcebook for the Arbellatra Regency.

And I'd love to read it!

I've done quite a bit of work on the Civil War period, but the problem I
kept running into was: why play in this period rather than in the 1100s? The
problem is that essentially, it's still the Imperium, with all the familiar
structures in place, with only rather modest changes.

It will be interesting to see how the T20 writers deal with this.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com






From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:48:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:48:28 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
Message-ID: <006301c23ce3$2bcea180$eeb18b90@computer>

> From: "Rupert Boleyn"
> IIRC the Imperial peak TL just nudged over into TL15 during the Rim
> War, which ended in 1009 (I think).

I would take TL 15 as being the equivalent of TL 16 in Milieu 1100:
something rather rare and wonderful.

TL 14 would be the equivalent of TL 15 - the TL of most modern military
gear. Depending on how long TL 14 had been around, a fair bit of older stuff
might be TL 14 too.

The counter mix from Invasion Earth might be worth studying. Images of it
may be available on the Far Futures website.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:51:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Barnett-Lewis)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:51:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra (was Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
References: <20020806000604.2646.31858.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D4F1C5A.95CD40DE@mailbag.com>

> At 11:48 AM 8/5/2002, Mr. Penguin Fancier wrote:
> >At 11:42 AM 8/5/2002 +0100, you wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hmm. I've always wanted to run an Arbellatra vs Gustus game. Maybe I
> >>should
> >>> actually do it.
> >>
> >>You should. Then I can play
> >
> >Dibs Arbellatra.  One of my favorite people in Traveller history.  Someday
> >I'd love to write a sourcebook for the Arbellatra Regency.
> 
> I'll buy one.

Doug's writing? I'll buy a dozen and give them all away. I can't think
of a better way to hook newbies into Traveller than the 3ICW as done by
him. That era gives everything anyone could want in a milleau. 

 
> Les


So when does it show on BITS/SJG/T20 new releases schedule? :'p I need
to pay for yet another partial cup of coffee!

William
-- 
You better watch out   What you wish for;
It better be worth it  So much to die for.
		       Courtney Love

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:52:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:52:19 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  The cloak
Message-ID: <20020806004801.59831.qmail@web20422.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Mark Urbin" <urbin@bigfoot.com>

>The favorite obsuring garment of the ages.  From knights hiding
>their armor & swords to Kent Allard striking terror in the hearts of
>evil doers...it has been part of popular fiction.
>
>How common are they in your Traveller universe?

ca. 1100s, they are in fashion at the Imperial court, and therefore
commonly worn by nobles everywhere.  Commoners only wear them when
the weather demands it.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:54:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:54:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Astronomy Boffin Question
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020805110124.358f5e36@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0208060246490.363897-100000@svati>

On Mon, 5 Aug 2002, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

>At 10:27 PM 8/4/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>>How big can a rocky asteroid be and still be irregular?
>
>At a guess, about 100 miles diameter.

Actually, it is almost a factor of ten bigger. Both 1 Ceres
and 2 Pallas are slightly irregular at 960 x 932km and
570 x 525 x 482km respectively. 1000km is a fairly accurat upper
limit.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020805112347.358f6ef0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNGEMBEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>ObTrav: This would not be a problem for interstellar troops, since minimum
>>travel time is a week. Maximum travel time could be much higher. (Which is
>>why I especially have a problem with GT designs which use bunkrooms.)
Could
>>a really large troop transport incorporate a habitat module to use as a
>>training area? It strikes me that a holoventure module might work really
>>well for battledress units and vehicle drivers (tank, fighter, etc.) but
>>that regular troops will need more room to practice small unit tactics,
>>unless the holoventure studios work as good as ST holodecks.
>
>The designs in Ground Forces include firing ranges and other small training
>areas, but as you say, the troops could be in cramped quarters for a good
>time.  Which could be an invitation for more adventures.  This was partly
>inspired by a Bill Maudlin cartoon showing troops in bunks stacked four
>high with no room to breath, and the First Sergeant standing there saying
>"Look, th' schedule calls for calisthenics, so we're gonna start with the
>left eyebrow..."
>
>Here's a fun game to play if you have Ground Forces.  You are a Force
>Lieutenant assigned to a Caen-class ship.  You are lying in your bunk, and
>feeling a bit peckish.  How do you get to the officer's mess?  :)
>--
>
>Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.

Let me start by saying I absolutely love 95% of Ground Forces. I think the
colors great. I like everything from the unit structure information, to the
battledress designs, to the modular grav design system.

The one thing I can't stand is the ship designs. I loath the Caen. Among
other problems: Where are the navy ratings bunked? They certainly wouldn't
be with the Marines, not since the rest of canon says that they should be
living in staterooms, which I would suppose are separate from the officer's
staterooms. I could go on and on about the failings of the design, but I
don't want to rant.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
Message-ID: <OFEF72E03B.8084570D-ONCA256C0D.0005E3D1@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Rupert said:
>> Given that, I would have thought that in 1100 the Imperium would be at 
TL 
>> _13_, with "TL 14 just creeping in"?
>> 
>> What TL is the original AHL (built c.1005)? I thought it was built 
using 
>> the best tech at the time, and thus fitted out at TL 14 (with j-5 
>> drives)??
>
>IIRC the Imperial peak TL just nudged over into TL15 during the Rim 
>War, which ended in 1009 (I think).

Doh! Just looked at my Library Data, which has the Sol Rim War from 990 to 
1002.

Well, even if they've just reached TL 15, I think my original assertion 
still stands.

Oh, and yeah, I meant 1000, not 1100 (you knew that, right?).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <20020805082530.D24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEMCEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>> This gave them the necessary range, a single 10,000 mile GURPS
>> Traveller hex, to be effective weapons.
>
>Ah, that explains it.  You're using a two-dimensional map.  Yes, if
>you can restrict spacecraft to move in a plane, then I agree that
>space mines can be effective.  (But even then, only if you don't use
>the GURPS Traveller space combat system)
>
>
?????

What has that to do with anything. A det-laser mine that can fire across a
10,000 mile hex, can fire across a 10,000 sphere. After doing some searching
on my hard drive I find that actual range is more like 9 hexes, so in a
three dimensional game that would be a sphere 180,000 miles across. Of
course I remember you poo pooing the idea then too. (Note: some of your
comments, especially on robot controlled mines, computer programs and mines
with active sensors were right on.)
I think the best system we came up with was one where the mines were
controlled by either a controlling sensor platform or a ship. This makes the
mines smaller and cheaper. The sensors "paint" the target for the passive
sensors on the mines to pick up.
And as in real life these mines would be more of an area denial weapon than
an actual threat to a capital ship. And you would have to seed many many
mines which would probably not be station keeping, but would be moving
enmass into an area. Part of the point would be to force ships attempting to
traverse the area to slow down, use sensors and weapons to clear the mine
field. This alone would make them detectable to opposing craft.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Aircraft carrier displacement
Message-ID: <20020806013316.28336.qmail@web20418.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>

> Daniel Tackett wrote:

>> Would anyone here know how many displacement tons a
>>U.S. aircraft carrier like the "Enterprise" would be?

>Check out Ken Pick's excellent essay on Traveller starship tonnage. 
>It's on the Freelance Traveller website, I believe.
>
>Basically:
>
>	5 tons gross ship displacement(in today's nautical terms)=1
>displacement ton in Traveller.
>
>These are approximate, and there are some fairly complicated 
>variables, but this is a good rule of thumb.
>
>The essay also lists some typical ships and their Traveller tonnage:
>Carrier USS Enterprise (TL7): 75000 tons std, 90000 full-load = 
>approx. 18000 Tons Traveller 

That might be a good rule of thumb.  The Traveller dton is a measure
of volume, 1.5m x 1.5m x 3.0m, or 13.5m3.

The dimensions of the USS Enterprise (CVN-65) are given at these web
sites:

http://www02.clf.navy.mil/enterprise/
http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/factfile/ships/ship-cv.html

length = 335.64m
beam = 39.9m
height = 76.2m (keel to mast)

I was not able to find out the height of the mast and the conning
tower.  I'll assume that it's half of the keel to mast height.  That
gives a volume of 335.64 x 39.9 x 38.1 = 510,236m3.  510,236/13.5 =
37,795 dtons.  

The Enterprise is not a rectangular box, of course, so it is possible
that sloped sides make up for about half of the difference in volume
between its real shape and that of a rectangular box.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:36:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:36:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <20020806013559.48555.qmail@web20417.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>

>Dibs Arbellatra.  One of my favorite people in Traveller history.  
>Someday I'd love to write a sourcebook for the Arbellatra Regency.

You beat me to it!  She is also one of my favorites.  I see her
regency as a turning point in Imperial history at several levels.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump governor
Message-ID: <200208060139.MDR00542@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I don't see these in High Guard - IMTU, they don't exist.  If 
a Jump-4 ship jumps 2 parsecs, they only use 2 parsecs worth 
of fuel.

What was the last canon word on this subject, if any? 
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
 <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]>
Message-ID: <p0433010bb974d90d92ee@[198.123.22.180]>

One thought that came up in this thead.  One you get to high enough 
scale, things become binary, either you can fire enough missiles to 
overwhelm the point defenses, or you can't.  (Not getting into 
"saving up missles" and other stuff).

What is the view toward using nukes for point defense?  Is it OK 
since it is "defensive"?  I think the Imperium wouldn't allow it (why 
do you have a nuke in the first place?) and it would only matter for 
fleet battles anyway...  So it would come down to any agreements, 
unspoken or otherwise, between the major powers (Impies vs Zhos, 
Impies vs Solos, Hivers vs the K'Kree) and whether it is seen as 
provoking retaliation.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020805215043.E25687@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEMDEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>Yes; either remove the chemical warhead or replace it with a fusion
>warhead.  A chemical explosive makes little sense.  Even the standard
>missiles accelerate to 72 km/s in the first round -- putting a
>chemical explosive in them is a bit like putting a spring-loaded
>boxing glove on an anti-tank penetrator.
>
>
The only reason I can think of is to allow you to self destruct the missile
if necessary.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:55:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:55:24 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1028592626.5758.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1028592626.5758.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <p0433010cb974db4e1b41@[198.123.22.180]>

At 5:10 PM -0700 8/5/02, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>David P. Summers writes:
>>
>>  I'm not sure how you are adding these....
>
>Cockpit bridge: nominal sensor range (PESA) 20,000
>Command bridge: nominal sensor range (PESA) 100,000
>Area covered by a given sensor: proportional to square of range.
>Note that since, in space, stealth in GT is twice as effective as emissions
>cloaking, there's really no point to useing the AESA, the PESA is 
>almost always
>more effective.


You are assuming close packed spheres.  Since object are likely 
moving wrt to each other, you would leave gaps.  Ie, you would have 
successive "shells" of sensors that object would need to pass through 
to approach (and fighters have high G ratings and can cover more 
ground per sensor by moveing around).  Also, If you take sensor input 
from multiple sensors and combine them, it is possible to generate 
detection of things that couldn't be detected within the range of 
anyone sensor.  Lastly, the advantage that a fighter gives only its 
own position, and not that of the capital ship, if it is caught first 
is non-trivial
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:57:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:57:14 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <p0433010bb974d90d92ee@[198.123.22.180]>
References: <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]>
 <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
 <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020805220304.026d01a0@mail.buffnet.net>

At 06:41 PM 08/05/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>One thought that came up in this thead.  One you get to high enough scale, 
>things become binary, either you can fire enough missiles to overwhelm the 
>point defenses, or you can't.  (Not getting into "saving up missles" and 
>other stuff).
>
>What is the view toward using nukes for point defense?  Is it OK since it 
>is "defensive"?  I think the Imperium wouldn't allow it (why do you have a 
>nuke in the first place?) and it would only matter for fleet battles 
>anyway...  So it would come down to any agreements, unspoken or otherwise, 
>between the major powers (Impies vs Zhos, Impies vs Solos, Hivers vs the 
>K'Kree) and whether it is seen as provoking retaliation.

I agree with the assessment about the "binary" situation.  I rather liked 
the concept of firing at each missile per wave.  If you want to insure that 
you don't get "leakage" you assign two gunners to each missile.  Then 
again?  Missiles can be bad enough as they are without allowing them to 
hit         ;)

Oh well.  Part of me likes the first edition rules, part of me likes the 
second edition.  Arrrghhhhh.  I still remember how disgusted I felt when I 
saw the new edition rules granting a +3 bonus to all the ROF bonuses - 
meant I would have had to go in and change all of my point defense lasers 
I'd built for CGI (my fictional Weapon's company).  Such was life then that 
I took it down.  Oh well.

                   Hal


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:59:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:59:05 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020805221551.F25687@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEMDEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>> What you do is build lasers whose only purpose of existance is to
>> damage missiles.  Build those lasers so that you have a high rate of
>> fire.
>
>High RoF doesn't do a lot.  It just counts as a bonus to hit in the
>combat system.  e.g. Multiplying the RoF by 16 gives you +4 bonus.
>This would mean 2 extra hits per shot, except:
>
>For the same volume requirement, your weapon has to use about 10 times
>less energy per shot.  That cuts the damage by a factor of about 3,
>which doesn't matter a lot against the standard missiles.  It will
>however reduce your range by a factor of 3 -- not a problem, you say,
>because you only need less than a hex?  Range directly determines
>accuracy, which will thus drop by 3.
>
>The net effect is a +1 to hit.  You're almost back where you started,
>except that now your weapon is greatly restricted in its utility for
>any other role.
>
>I've been along that route :-/

In the playtest for Starships I believe it was stated that you simply use a
computer program to reconfigure your standard lasers for point defense. It
is assumed that point defense takes place at very short ranges (for space
combat.)


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 20:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fred Ramen)
Date: Mon Aug  5 19:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra (WAS: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
Message-ID: <00fa01c23ced$9eedde60$331df7a5@pctframen>

"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes:

"Dibs Arbellatra.  One of my favorite people in Traveller history.  Someday
I'd love to write a sourcebook for the Arbellatra Regency."

Aye, mine too. Such a book might finally answer the question of just what
kind of leader she was.

IMHO, the model for Arbellatra is Augustus--not Julius--Caesar. That is, she
was more a illiant politician than a brilliant general. I base this on a few
factors:

1) She essentially lost the 2FW but still managed to declare victory and
mobilize the Marches behind her. (Remember, the Imperium ceded territory to
the Zhodani after the war, and Library Data mentions that the final
engagement resulted in a "stalemate" between the two sides. She basically
one the war the same way the U.S. "won" the War of 1812--by not losing as
badly as expected.)

2) It seems doubtful to me that even after a decade of civil war her
provincial fleet could cow the Vland Sector Fleet--yet she must have had the
cooperation of Vland sector, as others have pointed out, in order to
triumph. Again, this demonstrates her political acumen.

3) Her masterly stroke of refusing the crown is remarkably similar to
Augustus' own "retirement" from government--while in truth retaining a firm
grip on the reins of power. (The people of Rome demanded at one point that
he publish a list of candidates he favored, so they would know who to vote
for--not from coercion, but from a devotion to Augustus.)

My interpretation may also explain her meteoric rise to high command at such
a young age--perhaps her title of Grand Admiral of the Marches was a
ceremonial one, or rank was determined by noble standing to a much greater
degree in the antebellum Imperium. (Indeed, perhaps Arbellatra reformed the
military to make it more egalitarian, not only to prevent a rival from
rising in a fashion like her own, but to insure loyalty to the Emperor and
the Imperium and not the individual commander, as seems to be the case with
Plankwell and the other Emperors of the Flag.)

Fred "Arbellatra Divina" Ramen


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 20:16:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Aug  5 19:16:31 2002
Subject: [TML] "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"
Message-ID: <20020806021519.42100.qmail@web11304.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Under the rules of war, we've been discussing, if an
enemy intentionally builds fortifications or other
military structures among a civilian populance, then
that enemy becomes rssponsible for the safety of those
aforementioned civilians. If those civilians are
actively and willfully supporting the enemy, then they
are no longer considered noncombatants. So, it IS Al
Quaida's fault and responsibility if the US
intentionally seeks to bomb a legitimate military
target that Al Qaida has hidden behind a human shield.
END QUOTE

Bomb civilians? To be polite what the f*&# are all the
special forces for? A bunch of civilians having a
wedding on an arms dump hardly need to be strafed by
C-130 gunships! Most would surrender as soon as ground
troops approached and those who attacked would be
shot. Sure maybe some troops would be shot, but they
knew that when they signed up. Killing hundreds of
civilians just to save a few of "our" soldiers is not
an ethical trade! During the early part of the Korean
war US forces where ordered by the Supreme Command to
fire on any refugees attempting to croos their lines,
in case the North Korean army was using them as
infiltrators! The Pentagon has repeatedly tried to
cover this up, my fear is much the same thing is going
on today. And I am not a dove to use the American
term, I advocated intervention in Afgahnistan three
years ago. I also support the invasion of Iraq
(Actually I believe Saddam should have been dead in
91). However killing civilians just because it is
easier than using ground forces is no excuse. Except
in exceptional circumstances such as using the A-bomb
on japan (though I would have preferred a live "test"
on a non populated region), where its purpose was more
to break the spirit of the japanese and prevent even
worse civilian casualties.

James

http://digital.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Digital How To
- Get the best out of your PC!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 20:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 19:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] UWP generator
In-Reply-To: <20020730040045.54068.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20805.174051.5d2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I am currently in the process of creating my own home
> brew campaign setting (Can you say "Goa'uld of the
> starboard bow!")

I've got some images of stargates (both photos and drawings) and some
fonts with the symbols. I got them courtesy of someone who runs an SG-1
website.

> I could write the software myself but my C++
> compiler won't do random numbers (machine specific
> problem) and I don't yet know enough Java.

What's wrong with BASIC? <g>

The old interpreted QBASIC was still on the disks as of Win 98SE. I
don't know about ME or XP. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 20:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Aug  5 19:35:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <20020806023441.86669.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
I'll repeat myself.  Using the small fleet concept
that Roseberry posted earlier, I would be interested
in running a TL 12 PBEM.

Then we could find out through politics what other
players (representing their governments) think of
things like planetary bombardment, prisoner exchange,
trade embargos, blockades, etc.
END QUOTE

I would be interested. Even though I haven't designed
any military ships before. Can I be the "Evil Empire",
to exercise my sick and twisted imagination (too many
years of playing Vampire:TM) ;)

James


http://digital.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Digital How To
- Get the best out of your PC!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 20:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 19:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <200208060250.MDT01032@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Ramsay says
>I would be interested. Even though I haven't designed
>any military ships before. Can I be the "Evil Empire",
>to exercise my sick and twisted imagination (too many
>years of playing Vampire:TM) ;)
>

I think we have to go with Doug's idea, and take this to 
several levels - some people would be fleet commanders, some 
people would be the politicians, and some people would be the 
First Space Lord (Lord of the Admiralty?).

Also, it would have to be coordinated so all commo went 
through me, so that we could get everyone good and confused.

I was just thinking of things like the Imperial Navy 
Permanent Fighting Instructions...
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 21:07:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 20:07:35 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEMDEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <20020805221551.F25687@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEMDEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <4035.64.8.3.28.1028603214.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

Hello Terry,

> In the playtest for Starships I believe it was stated that you simply
> use a computer program to reconfigure your standard lasers for point
> defense. It is assumed that point defense takes place at very short
> ranges (for space combat.)

When I built lasers for use in my traveller campaign back when first
edition Traveller came out - I built purpose built point defense lasers. 
They didn't have a lot of damaging ability - perfect for civilian use. 
They did however, have a higher rate of fire than normal lasers...



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 21:25:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 20:25:20 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller - more
Message-ID: <d1.1c6715c7.2a8098f4@aol.com>

 >Actually, given some of the other tech, the weapons could be fusion
 >warheads that don't *need* a fission trigger.

I see.  Then (ignoring the fact that this is fantasy technology) I suppose 
that anyone with access to a fusion plant of any size will have access to a 
fusion "nuke" (for lack of another word)?

Book 4 states that the PGMP-13 is powered by a fusion reactor.  I don't 
suppose this would be significantly larger than that on a missile, so how 
much modification would be needed to turn it into a bomb?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 21:26:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 20:26:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: T20 background question
Message-ID: <200208060324.g763OPw20614@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] T20 background question
...
>TL 14 would be the equivalent of TL 15 - the TL of most modern military
>gear. Depending on how long TL 14 had been around, a fair bit of older stuff
>might be TL 14 too.
>
>The counter mix from Invasion Earth might be worth studying. Images of it
>may be available on the Far Futures website.

  Courtesy of the TML RoM TL Flamewar/Debate of 1997 Historical 
Re-enactment Society:

  Feb 19 98
>To: Traveller
>From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>Subject: IM equipment/doctrine
>
>  I was recently flipping through a rather overpriced copy of the
>Regency Vehicle Sourcebook (?), and got the strong impression that
>Imperial Marines were (in TNE, at least) always equipped to the
>best standard, that being 14 or 15 by the Rebellion.
>
>  That all makes sense and is probably an extension of Striker II
>material, but while pawing through the Invasion: Earth counter mix
>I ran across a bunch of TL 12 and 13 Marines. I know that projects
>about Marine history and TO&E's are out there, and I was wondering
>if any ideas had been formed about how this fit IM or IN doctrine,
>or what had changed since 1002.
>
>  As all other units seem to be limited to TL 14, presumably all
>~max. TL Marines were serving with fleet elements continuing the
>offensive beyond Sol system. So it would appear that at least
>until then that the IM had independent Marine regiments (from the
>counters) of lower (12/13) TL for occupation or follow-up duties.
>
>  This assumes that the white Imperial counters with a star for ID
>type are Marines... my copy of FFW went AWOL long ago.
>

        ********   

 Apr 6 98
>To: Traveller
>From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>Subject: I:E commandoes
>
>>>For the record, Inv: Earth gives _both_ sides TL14 troops counters.  The
>>>Imperial forces are broken down as to Regulars, Colonials, etc., but no
>>>such distinction is made for the Solomani counters.  (Exactly why I
>>>stated that the claim that Earth was TL13 was, well, an exaggeration.)
>>
>>   This fits nicely with establish canon.  I'm not sure what the problem
>>is here.  While it is possible that the Imperium and Solomani had some
>>TL 15 commandos or other small elite formations, at the scale the game
>>is conducted, they would not have been a factor in the fighting (or
>>would have been lumped in with a lower tech formation).
>
>  This came up several months ago. However, both commando units (regiment
>-sized raiders) and rules (ignore ZOC's/occupied hexes) are covered, and
>none are TL 15. Also, while Terra can churn out replacement armies at TL
>14, not even a few thousand TL 15 lift infantry kits can be produced.
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 21:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 20:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020806075541.B27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805090845.01831e50@192.168.0.1>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020804223247.0237e008@192.168.0.1>
 <20020804232303.7408.33320.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <006701c23c1f$2baff600$195d8690@computer>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020804223247.0237e008@192.168.0.1>
 <20020805202103.D25687@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020805090845.01831e50@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805225506.02acc008@192.168.0.1>

At 07:55 AM 8/6/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
> > It was determined that published trade rules didn't fit the big picture.
>That may be so, but they are the official rules for the official
>universe.  I agree that variant rules may give variant results.

 From what I recall, the rules for small (100-200 ton) 'tramp' traders.
That is what players typically have (instead of freighters the size of Navy 
Cruisers)
It's been a long time since I looked at the CT rules, and haven't dug into 
the Far Trader rules to the extent you have.

The thread started with how did the die off happen in TNE on Rockballs if 
they grow all their own food.
Someone else has stated that the Virus would play havoc with the local 
greenhouses and such (and gave examples)

I'll take your word that the numbers in Far Trader state that high pop 
rockballs grow all their own food.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vegetarian: An old Indian word that means "lousy hunter."
                www.urbin.net/EWW/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 21:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mosaic Tapestry)
Date: Mon Aug  5 20:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra (WAS: warship optimization in Traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <00fa01c23ced$9eedde60$331df7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <002901c23cfa$9b96b130$2f7de40c@loki>

Fred Ramen shares with us a wonderful comparison of Arbellatra and
Augustus to wit I must say thank you. It is these kinds of analysis,
shared, that reignites my desires to look into parts of the Traveller
universe I had allowed to rest and become dusty.

For those wishing to further explore may I offer these semi-random
links?

http://home.earthlink.net/~nimrodd/LibraryData/A/Arbellatra.htm
http://home.earthlink.net/~nimrodd/LibraryData/C/CivilWar.htm
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw/libdata/ALPHABET/S/soegz.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Matrix/1302/HIWGNZ/I3.html
http://www.ogrecave.com/reviews/darkmoon.shtml
http://www.flash.net/~grazzit/history.html
http://members.cox.net/carlino/Survey.htm
http://www.jtas.org/Software/downloads/megat1.txt
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~iandl57/samson.html
http://www.io.com/~mike_f/RPG/Rumors_of_War/Third_Imperium.html
http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/money.html
http://www.rossmack.com/ab/rpg/traveller/ChartedSpace/BY/BY1104.asp
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~iandl57/tranoii.html
http://www.io.com/~thrash/imperium.html

I did say they were semi-random didn't I? Anyway I had fun collecting
'em hope some of you have fun following them.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 21:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 20:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <159.120df85e.2a809f36@aol.com>

 >> > Army?  What army?
 >> 
 >> I'll believe that when I see it. This sort of talking has always 
 >> turned 
 >> out to be wishful thinking in the past, and I see no reason why it 
 >> isn't now. It's all very well while you're thrashing low-tech 
 >> thrid-
 >> worlders, but sooner or later there'll be another first-world vs 
 >> first-
 >> world scrap, and spec ops teams relying on vast amounts of support 
 >> just 
 >> won't cut it.
 >> 
 >I refer readers to the Fehrenbach quote the opens Chapter 1 of GT:GF.  
 >Words to the effect of (quoted from memory):
 >
 >You may fly over a land forever; you may bomb it, atomize it, sterilize 
 >it and wipe it clean of life; but if you wish to defend it for 
 >civilization, you must do this the way the Romans did, by putting your 
 >young men into the mud.

I would agree.  But as you will observe in Afghanistan (and arguably Serbia) 
they did it by putting someone else's young men into the mud -- and not all 
that many of those.  I seem to remember something along those lines in 
Gibbons ....

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 21:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 20:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller - more
Message-ID: <200208060348.MDV00878@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Flykiller asks
>Book 4 states that the PGMP-13 is powered by a fusion 
>reactor.  I don't suppose this would be significantly larger 
>than that on a missile, so how much modification would be 
>needed to turn it into a bomb?


Take a look at the LANL Magnetized Target Fusion web page.  
Then think about how that could be used as an initiator for a 
fusion weapon - without the traditional fission primary.

The Z-pinch at Sandia is also a possibility, if the power 
conditioning piece can be made small enough.
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 22:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Aug  5 21:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEMDEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEMDEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <1028606767.3d4f4b2fa9269@www.paradise.net.nz>

Quoting Terry Carlino <carlino@cox.net>:

> In the playtest for Starships I believe it was stated that you simply
> use a
> computer program to reconfigure your standard lasers for point defense.
> It
> is assumed that point defense takes place at very short ranges (for
> space
> combat.)

For point-defence lasers using FF&S1 I assumed that you could crank up the RoF 
by lowering the energy per pulse by the requisite amount. As a 200MJ RoF100 
laser (for example) has the same focal array volume as a 50MJ RoF800 laser the 
only inefficiency is in needing a 200MJ HPG. AFAICT being able to install only 
one type of laser makes up for that quite easily.

-- 
Rupert Boleyn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 23:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 22:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Aircraft carrier displacement
Message-ID: <OF2DF9F69F.D7DF6D06-ONCA256C0D.001C4302@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Glenn wrote:
>I was not able to find out the height of the mast and the conning
>tower.  I'll assume that it's half of the keel to mast height.  That
>gives a volume of 335.64 x 39.9 x 38.1 = 510,236m3.  510,236/13.5 =
>37,795 dtons.
>
>The Enterprise is not a rectangular box, of course, so it is possible
>that sloped sides make up for about half of the difference in volume
>between its real shape and that of a rectangular box.

Triangular box, so it should be roughly 1/3 of your figure (~12,500 
dtons). If it's 5/12ths to allow for the larger stern, it comes to 15,750 
dtons. Then add the "island" section.

I'd go with Brian's 18,000-ton figure. Near enough for Daniel's 
"visualisation in my head" work.  ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 23:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Clint Rynners)
Date: Mon Aug  5 22:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <OFAB1B22C2.9545AAF0-ON42256C0D.001E9A8B@ko.com>

John T. Kwon wrote:
"May we assume that the countdown has begun?"

Mr Kwon

I am of the view that we are not going very far as a species until we
manage to get our act together on Earth and solve the seemingly
insurmountable problems - of our own doing - facing us. Even interplanetary
travel on any significant scale is just not going to happen unless we
instigate a paradigm shift in the way we behave towards each other and
towards life in general. Is it unreasonable to assume that any sentient
species that gains control of its environment has to learn to curb
exponential growth and a corresponding exponential increase in the demand
for resources? Only once this hurdle is overcome will the ability to
harness the resources of a single solar system and the ability to travel to
other solar systems be developed. Perhaps I am making sweeping assumptions,
but this seems to be the case with the only example I have to base my views
on.
 Another point to consider is that we are unlikely to encounter an alien
species in the same technological ballpark as us. Given the age of our
galaxy, and the number of times in the past the conditions for life as we
know them have probably occurred, our encounter with an alien species
travelling through interstellar space is probably going to be them
investigating us in the manner that we would investigate an ant-hill. We
would be more of a curiosity than a threat.

Having said all this, Greg Bear's "The Forge of God" and "The Anvil of the
Stars" left me cold. The notion that we have not been contacted by other
species is because they are all doing their best to hide, much like small
creatures in a jungle full of predators. And we are like a dumb little
bird, sitting on a branch chirping away as loudly as possible to all and
sundry. A memorable analogy from the second book, as a remnant of humanity
seeks to punish the species that destroyed the Earth: they were like a fly
(could have been an ant) entering someone's kitchen, intent on revenge.

Your thoughts?

Regards

Clint Rynners



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 23:56:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Clint Rynners)
Date: Mon Aug  5 22:56:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Aircraft carrier displacement
Message-ID: <OFA1CCF309.C0F79DCF-ON42256C0D.0020C815@ko.com>

"Would anyone here know how many displacement tons a
U.S. aircraft carrier like the "Enterprise" would be?"

There is an article in the Shipyard section of Freelance Traveller about
the dtons and the displacement of water-borne vessels.

Regards

Clint Rynners


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 00:06:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Mon Aug  5 23:06:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Woo Hoo Yepieee the IW are coming to town
Message-ID: <3D500FEB.23377.99926E7@localhost>

Copied from JTAS

From:       Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Date:       23:01:47, Aug 05, 2002
Message-ID: 15305
Group:      General Discussion

Interstellar Wars: A New Direction For Traveller Steve Jackson Games is 
pleased to announce that its license to produce a GURPS version of the 
classic science-fiction roleplaying game Traveller has been extended for 
another three years. By agreement with Far Future Enterprises, the 
GURPS Traveller line, as well as the online Journal of the Travellers' Aid 
Society, will continue at least through the end of 2005.

The new license also gives SJ Games the right to open up a new period in 
the distant past of the classic Third Imperium setting. Long before the 
foundation of the Imperium, the Humans of Terra reached the stars for the 
first time, only to find that they were already owned by someone else. 
Centuries of conflict followed, in which the outnumbered Terrans fought for 
their very survival against a vast but decadent alien empire. Now GURPS 
Traveller will examine this crucial time. The first release in the new line, 
GURPS Traveller: The Interstellar Wars, is tentatively scheduled for a 
Summer 2003 release.

"The Interstellar Wars have always been of great interest to Traveller fans," 
said GURPS Traveller Line Editor Jon F. Zeigler. "It's very exciting to have 
the opportunity to develop this period into a setting for epic adventure." 
Marc Miller, creator of Traveller, agreed. "I'm excited about opening a new 
milieu. There's room for a lot of new things here." Senior Line Editor Loren 
Wiseman, long-time Traveller author and editor, remains at the helm of the 
GURPS Traveller product line. He is assisted by Zeigler, and by Graeme 
Davis, editor of the Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society (JTAS).


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 00:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Mon Aug  5 23:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
Message-ID: <20020806021137.13bb35092d5d49ae9344179b452c1788.in@keywest.kennett.net>

Hi,

This probably displays the depths of my ignorance, but can anybody give me a
description of how a unit's change of command ceremony goes?  I am looking
specifically for the US Navy's protocol, but any nation or service is welcomed.

Thanks,

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

 My Sale List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
 My Want List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 01:28:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Tue Aug  6 00:28:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
References: <20020805183149.2742.79211.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D4F7A61.BA9F032E@ameritech.net>

> Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 09:42:43 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> David Shayne <daveshayne@ameritech.net> writes:
> >
> >> Any clues?
> >
> >I couldn't find that info in any TNE source. There are charts for that
> >in "World Builder's Handbook" for MT. Assuming for the moment that you
> >don't have access to that very worthwhile publication I can give you
> >some typical figures from that source.
> >
> >Smallest SGG radius = 20
> >Average SGG radius ~= 60
> >Highest SGG radius = 100
> >
> >Smallest LGG radius = 110
> >Average LGG radius ~= 175
> >Highest LGG radius = 240
> 
> Applying a realism check here, Jupiter, at size 88, is about the limit
> for any sort of gas giant (assuming TNE size is in thousands of miles,
> like CT size).

Yes it is. And yes from a perfect realism standpoint this is wrong.
However probably not hugely broken since the main thing we need to
determine here is the mass and this gives a reasonable number for mass
while still being usable with the same formula as for small rocky worlds
. (like earth) Besides I tend to the view that wherever reality and the
rules are in conflict it's almost always reality that has it wrong.
(With a special thanks to the late Doug Adams.)

> >
> >Lowest GG density = .1
> >Average GG density ~= .21
> >Highest GG density = .3
> 
> Assuming that's g/cc, that's horribly wrong. 

Standard densities. With Earth = 1. Doesn't look so horibly wrong now
does it? 

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 01:44:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug  6 00:44:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
In-Reply-To: <3D4FA627.26089.39E708@localhost>
References: <3D4E5E7E.26225.7DEF71@localhost> <20020806081755.D27684@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D4FA627.26089.39E708@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020806174314.A28821@freeman.little-possums.net>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> No, I forgot to mention that this model can run the sensor and brain 
> for 7 days.

Phew, that's quite a bit better.  You're right about the huge drain
for PEMS though.  Aren't they meant to be *passive* sensors?


> Perhaps a CAPTOR style sensor platform with a number of small missiles 
> on board would be a workable comprimise, though it'd start getting 
> expensive real quick, and it wouldn't be long before most design 
> committees turned it into a small battle-station by adding point 
> defence, etc. I'm sure.

I strongly suspect so, yes.  Trouble is, they'd probably be right :(
Maybe small mines aren't viable in FF&S?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 02:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mosaic Tapestry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 01:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <20020806021137.13bb35092d5d49ae9344179b452c1788.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <000e01c23d20$3c40c240$2f7de40c@loki>

I'm not sure which details are important to you but the essential bit of
a US Army change of command is the transfer of the colors. The outgoing
commander hands the colors to his commanding officer who immediately
hands them to the incoming commander.

A web page of events surrounding such with photo of the act:
http://www.militarymarksmanship.org/hoidahlcoc.htm

A web page of events surrounding such with parade and all:
http://www.afsouth.nato.int/images/change.htm



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 02:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug  6 01:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com> <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com> <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>

Hal wrote:
> List all of the modifiers to gunner's skill you are using in a 
> missile/antimissile engagement.

Pretty similar to yours.  In more detail:

> Skill 12 laser gunner

A reasonable median.  I've been assuming about 9 for civilians who
have weapons but test-fire them more than they use them, up to about
15 for well-trained and experienced military personnel.

> Gunnery +6 to hit program

I generally use a Complexity 8 targeting program for +9 to hit (not
cumulative with Gunnery program).  Civilian ships will have less,
possibly +4.

> ROF bonus +10

I get only +7 RoF bonus per laser, or +8 (maybe +9) for a standard
"triple laser" turret.  Are you grouping them into larger batteries?

> Total modifiers:
> 12+ 32 + 6 + 10 + 10 + 2 - 39 = 72-39 = 32

Pretty close; I get between 24-37 depending upon circumstances; 32 is
fine.


> Rolling an average of 10 on 3d6 means that you will have succeeded by 
> 22.  Number of missiles successfully engaged in that round will be equal to 
> round((22-3)/2,0) or 19/2 rounded up or 10.

It's rather odd to see a turret that fires only 1 shot per 20 seconds
take out 10 missiles in the 15-30 seconds it takes the missiles to
cross the last half-hex, but them's the rules :(

Yes, that's close to the figures I get.


>  Please note that second edition rules for TRAVELLER have bumped up
> the ROF bonus from their current levels to current levels +3.

That's OK, I've got the second edition rules.  Just bought them a
couple of months ago.


> If more than 10 are inbound, he stops 10 and the rest hit.

That's the problem.  Dton-for-dton, there will always be more than 10
incoming missiles per defending turret using any sane launcher and
guidance design.  A million points of impact damage per turret
*really* hurts.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 02:41:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 01:41:04 2002
Subject: [TML] GURPS MISSILE WARFARE (was The big fleet debate)
In-Reply-To: <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

>> Gunnery +6 to hit program
>
> I generally use a Complexity 8 targeting program for +9 to hit (not
> cumulative with Gunnery program).  Civilian ships will have less,
> possibly +4.

The CDI (C Defense Industries) had a showcase of a lot of different types
of low power lasers.  The trade off was that they increased the rate of
fire to get an increase in ROF bonus.  One interesting development was to
build a specialized targeting computer.  Using GURPS rules, it was a
specilized computer getting a +1 complexity bonus for use with a targeting
computer.


>> ROF bonus +10
>
> I get only +7 RoF bonus per laser, or +8 (maybe +9) for a standard
> "triple laser" turret.  Are you grouping them into larger batteries?

The point defense lasers I built could easily attain that ROF bonus. 
Since lasers in a single turret cannot target different targets, most
Point defense scenarios I had were such that you had a triple turret
firing three lasers at its target.  I will see if I can dig up my archived
copy of the point defense lasers.  But +10 is not hard to achieve :)


>> Total modifiers:
>> 12+ 32 + 6 + 10 + 10 + 2 - 39 = 72-39 = 32
>
> Pretty close; I get between 24-37 depending upon circumstances; 32 is
> fine.
>
>
>> Rolling an average of 10 on 3d6 means that you will have succeeded by
>> 22.  Number of missiles successfully engaged in that round will be
>> equal to  round((22-3)/2,0) or 19/2 rounded up or 10.
>
> It's rather odd to see a turret that fires only 1 shot per 20 seconds
> take out 10 missiles in the 15-30 seconds it takes the missiles to
> cross the last half-hex, but them's the rules :(

Minor thoughts: part of that +10 bonus for Point defense comes of the fact
that the missiles attempting to hit you have to come in from a specific
"region".  This region is a relatively small cone that gets smaller the
closer those missiles come to you.  But you are correct.  There should be
a MAX number of targets that can be engaged by a single laser group per
turn equal to the max number of shots a single laser in the grouping and
put out in a turn.


>> If more than 10 are inbound, he stops 10 and the rest hit.
>
> That's the problem.  Dton-for-dton, there will always be more than 10
> incoming missiles per defending turret using any sane launcher and
> guidance design.  A million points of impact damage per turret
> *really* hurts.

Using the concept that the current weapon systems are designed to operate
against the current enemy weapon technology - try using the GURPS
TRAVELLER missile designs first.  Then do an analysis of weapons in the
TRAVELLER universe.  If you can see where there is an improved methodology
for weapons, post it and we can argue the merits and/or improve any
oversights.  I am still flabberghasted that no one ever noticed that the
FAST drug makes a FAR better alternative for cheap travel than does a
freeze tube!

  But that is another story ;)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 03:22:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Aug  6 02:22:04 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
References: <OF2F3C29E3.8D5E3297-ONCA256C0C.0081279C@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <004501c23d2c$34a85e60$d601bd50@martinjd>

>
> Martin replied:
> >>What is the TL of  the Imperium & the Terran Confederation in the
> >>Year 1000 setting of T20?
> >
> >The Impeirum is TL 14 mostly, with Tl 15 just creeping in over the last
> few
> >years.
>
> OK, this one's got me puzzled, I'll give a serious reply now.


Ooops. Sorry "best tech in the Imperium is mostly TL 14, with 15 creeping
in". Average is lower..


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 03:23:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Aug  6 02:23:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump governor
References: <200208060139.MDR00542@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <004a01c23d2c$35f06ec0$d601bd50@martinjd>

> I don't see these in High Guard - IMTU, they don't exist.  If
> a Jump-4 ship jumps 2 parsecs, they only use 2 parsecs worth
> of fuel.
>
> What was the last canon word on this subject, if any?

Marc's last statement (and confirmed to me in a question I asked a while
ago) was that if you have J-3 fuel and you J-1, you only use J1 of fuel up.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 04:07:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Tue Aug  6 03:07:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Taxes
In-Reply-To: <20020805183149.2742.79211.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208061200220.25606-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Anthony Jackson writes:
>In Striker, the implication is that the imperial military tax is simply 1/3
>of the planet's total military expenditure (with another 1/3 going to the
>subsector fleet, so the world only keeps 1/3 for personal forces).

Incorrect. It's 30% of total military expenditure that goes to the
Imperium with 70% retained for local use. The 30% is divided between
regular and subsector forces. I used to be convinced that somewhere I had
seen a canonical statement to the effect that these Imperial military
taxes were split 50/50 between regular and subsector forces (so 15% to
each), but I've been trying to track down the reference for a while with
no luck, so I'm beginning to doubt. Maybe I made it up myself (anyone who
can come up with the reference will earn my undying gratitude ;-).



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 04:20:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug  6 03:20:05 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1028592330.6838.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020806083856.E27684@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1028592330.6838.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020806201901.C28821@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Ok, that's reasonable.  Now, let's look at a point defense system:

> 9 x rE cell, good for 50 shots: 0.09T, $90k

I get $180k, but that doesn't matter much.

> Dedicated Macroframe: 0.25T, $50k, complexity 11

I get $100k and Complexity 10 at TL12.  It's not hardened, but that's
not likely to be a problem except in really unusual situations.


> Targeting +12: $512k (but probably gets a bulk discoute)

I get $256k, and I agree about the bulk discount ;) However, I can
only seem to fit a $128k +11 program in the macroframe.


> with the Vehicles system beam weapons in space have no Acc cap,

However, in the Vehicles rules maximum accuracy bonus is limited to
Gunnery skill, in this case 25.  There's no point in aiming more than
one second.  That gives you a base of 50 (51 since you can miss by one
and still hit).


> The missile is being fired at one second before impact

You'd better make that at least two seconds else the now unguided
missile will still hit your ship.  You need to do a *lot* more damage
to annihilate it.  (In fact, if there are a lot of missiles, you might
find it very hard to dodge all the "dead" ones...)

That doesn't change the basic to-hit number by much, it's 15- instead
of 16-.  Continuing the progression out to the 1/2D limit, I also get
an average of about 8 missiles killed.

It's a good thing I didn't put thermal superconductors in their
armour ;)


> Hm...that's actually worse than I realized.  Oh well, if they send a
> really big swarm of missiles at you simply dump a canister round in
> front of them.

How *big* a canister round?

You need to disable the missiles about 600 miles out, and they will
probably be approaching from a region 200 miles across at that
distance.  Your canister must disperse about ten trillion objects of
sufficient size to reliably disable a missile, just to cut the numbers
in half.

A 20 MJ x-ray pulse is barely enough to penetrate the DR, so I'll use
that to derive an estimate of particle size required.  At 500 km/s,
that works out to a mass of about 0.16 grams, which I will round down
to 0.1 grams to give some benefit of the doubt to the defending side.

Each canister must thus have a mass of about a million tonnes.  You
would actually need a few times that to account for dispersion.


Your countermissile idea was better.  I've designed and played it
using Vehicles rules, and it is a highly reliable system for
intercepting missiles.

It would probably fail horribly when faced with a "silent launch" from
an untracked ship though.  In my Vehicles test of this scenario, most
of the missiles weren't detected until about 10 seconds before impact.
Even with an immediate launch at 30 gees, they couldn't intercept the
missiles at a safe distance.  In such a case, lasers are about the
only option -- and even then, not a good one.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 04:25:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Aug  6 03:25:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
In-Reply-To: <c8.2aaa2ec2.2a794cbe@cs.com>
Message-ID: <20806.014533.9X1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> >That's John Milius.
>> 
>> So it is . . . he still should have directed Starship Troopers.
>> 
>> LKW
>
> Anyone _OTHER_ than Verhoeven should have directed Starship Troopers.

Yeah, but if he directed Red Dawn, he *definitely* makes the short list.


-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 04:39:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug  6 03:39:04 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEMCEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <20020805082530.D24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEMCEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20020806203758.D28821@freeman.little-possums.net>

Terry Carlino wrote:
[2D maps vs 3D maps]
> What has that to do with anything. A det-laser mine that can fire
> across a 10,000 mile hex, can fire across a 10,000 sphere.

The difference is in how many you need.  A typical interplanetary
"traffic lane" would be a few million miles wide (say 5 million).  On
a 2-D map, you only need 500 mines which is expensive but probably
doable.  On a 3D map you need 250,000 -- that's almost certain to
break your budget given how much they cost each.

Note that I'm not saying mines are ineffective in general, I was
commenting in the thread that started with an attacker trying to use
them to destroy interplanetary commerce.  I don't think that will work
well enough to be worthwhile.


> After doing some searching on my hard drive I find that actual range
> is more like 9 hexes, so in a three dimensional game that would be a
> sphere 180,000 miles across.

9 hexes range is a lot better.  You only need about 800 to cover that
traffic lane.  


> I think the best system we came up with was one where the mines were
> controlled by either a controlling sensor platform or a ship. This
> makes the mines smaller and cheaper. The sensors "paint" the target
> for the passive sensors on the mines to pick up.

Yes, that rings a bell.  Again, more effective in 2D than 3D, but
useful for covering the space near a planet or other "small" area.


> Part of the point would be to force ships attempting to traverse the
> area to slow down, use sensors and weapons to clear the mine
> field. This alone would make them detectable to opposing craft.

I've not found detection of enemy craft to be much of a problem in my
test-bed runs.  Usually the side with mines controls the system, sees
the jump flash of any intruder, and can track everything they
subsequently do.

Maybe I'm just lacking battle experience against other people.  Is
avoiding detection by the defender a possibility in most people's
scenarios?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 04:44:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug  6 03:44:04 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <p0433010bb974d90d92ee@[198.123.22.180]>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com> <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net> <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]> <p0433010bb974d90d92ee@[198.123.22.180]>
Message-ID: <20020806204257.E28821@freeman.little-possums.net>

David P. Summers wrote:
> What is the view toward using nukes for point defense?

My first thought would be "Is it worthwhile?"

Politically, I suspect it lies in a murky area.  In practice, I
suspect that the advantages of using nuclear weapons for defense
aren't sufficient to be worth the chance that the other side might
take it as a sign that it's OK for them to use nukes in offense.

I can see very clear advantages to using nukes offensively...


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 04:46:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug  6 03:46:04 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEMDEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <20020805215043.E25687@freeman.little-possums.net> <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEMDEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20020806204412.F28821@freeman.little-possums.net>

Terry Carlino wrote:
> The only reason I can think of is to allow you to self destruct the
> missile if necessary.

Yes, I guess that makes sense.  Thanks :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 05:15:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Tue Aug  6 04:15:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Ad campaign......
Message-ID: <20020806111409.62570.qmail@web11001.mail.yahoo.com>

Just a thought for an InstellArms catalog:

http://www.missilesandfirecontrol.com/our_products/antiarmor.html

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 06:04:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Aug  6 05:04:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
In-Reply-To: <20020806174314.A28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3D4FA627.26089.39E708@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D5063E3.15285.4B7F3E@localhost>

On 6 Aug 2002 at 17:43, Timothy Little wrote:

> Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > No, I forgot to mention that this model can run the sensor and brain 
> > for 7 days.
> 
> Phew, that's quite a bit better.  You're right about the huge drain
> for PEMS though.  Aren't they meant to be *passive* sensors?

Yeah. I think they must use valves in their signal processor, or 
something. :)

> > Perhaps a CAPTOR style sensor platform with a number of small missiles 
> > on board would be a workable comprimise, though it'd start getting 
> > expensive real quick, and it wouldn't be long before most design 
> > committees turned it into a small battle-station by adding point 
> > defence, etc. I'm sure.
> 
> I strongly suspect so, yes.  Trouble is, they'd probably be right :(
> Maybe small mines aren't viable in FF&S?

It depends what for. That first design I posted was only 1 m^3 in 
volume, and would be quite hard to avoid, I think. the 3 G-turns of 
fuel it had is enough to guarantee that it can get into firing position 
of anything that comes within 60,000km or so (a turn in TNE is 30 
minutes, and a hex 30,000km).

By ditching the rocket the volume can be brought down to 0.6 m^3 and 
the cost to MCr1.423 at TL15, but then the mine can only attack craft 
that come into its hex - within 10-15,000km or so. I tried taking off 
the Electromagnetic Masking (EMM), but that didn't save any significant 
space, money or power.

Actually playing around I see that if a fusion reactor of minimum size 
is put in (assuming TL15 that's 0.1 m^3 and 0.6MW) you can still have 
the basic 1 m^3 mine, and about 4 months fuel, with no noticeable 
increase in cost. In fact the limit to performance suddenly bocomes 
surface area on which to mount the PEMS.

Thus:

TL Guidance Vol Mass AV MCr   G-Turns Warhead Hits Damage  Range
15 Full-Ind 1   1.26 3  1.547 3/3     50kt    1D6  1/14-43 0

Comm Sensor Signatures     Asset
10L  1P     +4/+3/+4/+3/+1 4/8

with a duration for the sensor and brain of 4 months.

Or, for a bigger job:

TL Guidance Vol Mass AV MCr   G-Turns Warhead Hits Damage  Range
15 Full-Ind 7   8.48 3  7.434 3/3     500kt   1D6  1/25-79 0

Comm Sensor Signatures     Asset
10L  5P     +4/+3/+4/+3/+1 6/16

This thing has a short range of 150,000km for its PEMS and a maximum of 
1,200,000km and a year's fuel for the fusion plant that powers its 
sensor and brain (the same plant as the little 'um uses, BTW). It has a 
fairly weak motor because it's still got a crappy little EAPlaC solid 
fuel rocket instead of a nice HEPlaR or thruster system. This way it's 
not sensitive to issues version or canon the same way (FWIW).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 06:09:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Aug  6 05:09:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <200208061208.MEL01964@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>I am of the view that we are not going very far as a species 
>until we manage to get our act together on Earth and solve 
>the seemingly insurmountable problems - of our own doing - 
>facing us. Even interplanetary travel on any significant 
>scale is just not going to happen unless we instigate a 
>paradigm shift in the way we behave towards each other and
>towards life in general. Is it unreasonable to assume that 
>any sentient species that gains control of its environment 
>has to learn to curb exponential growth and a corresponding 
>exponential increase in the demand for resources? Only once 
>this hurdle is overcome will the ability to harness the 
>resources of a single solar system and the ability to travel 
>to other solar systems be developed.

This is the Sagan hypothesis - that sufficiently advanced 
alien life forms will have learned to be "peaceful".  There 
is no reason that this has to be so.  If a warlike species 
came to be dominated by a single high tech faction, through 
limited nuclear war and genocidal action, and used this high 
technology to permanently dominate and subjugate its 
population, it would survive its birth into a nuclear age and 
birth into a starfaring age.

Sufficiently advanced technology makes life on an airless 
rockball possible - why would such a species need to preserve 
its wildlife?  

It is simply not logical to conclude that we must get our act 
together in some peaceful manner.  All that is required is 
that we get our act together - and this could be done today 
by the United States, largely through the use of force.  We 
could solve many problems at once - the population problem, 
the poverty of the third world, the source of most terrorists 
around the world, religions that are inimical to US goals, up 
and coming governments that will consume resources to no good 
end - imagine the tyranny of technological might that could 
annihilate several billion people in a few weeks, and spend 
the world's resources on going to the stars.

A peaceful Sagan-like world that ran across a violent world 
where both were capable of building antimatter rockets would 
be annihilated by the violent world in the time it took for 
the rockets to cross the distance.  The peaceful would die 
with startled looks on their faces as the radars showed the 
near-C projectiles coming in.

Scary, isn't it?  But I think that across the stars, this is 
the far more likely scenario.  Sagan was a dreamer, a wishful 
thinker whose idea of transgression was cheating on his wife.

When I see pictures of children overseas holding AK-47s, I 
see a future where alien races are holding antimatter rockets 
and near-C rocks.  Same picture.  It's not a good idea to 
shout, "Here I am!" in a jungle like that.
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 06:21:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 05:21:04 2002
Subject: [TML] GURPS Interstellar Wars
Message-ID: <20020806.081920.-291705.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

Many of you have probably already run across this, but for those who
haven't, check out Evil Stevie's Daily Illuminator
(http://www.sjgames.com/ill/) for the 8/6/02 entry.


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"




________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 07:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Tue Aug  6 06:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] GURPS Interstellar Wars
In-Reply-To: <20020806.081920.-291705.0.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <000601c23d4f$49ec0330$0b01a8c0@duck>

> Many of you have probably already run across this, but for those who
> haven't, check out Evil Stevie's Daily Illuminator
> (http://www.sjgames.com/ill/) for the 8/6/02 entry.

I hadn't see it yet, but it does sound interesting.  The only thing
I hope is that this doesn't mean they are abandoning their alternate
history.

They have just gotten to the cusp of 1120 and actually having history
move forward.  It will be quite disappointing if instead history just
stops at 1120 as they abandon it for the Interstellar Wars.

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 08:41:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Tue Aug  6 07:41:04 2002
Subject: [TML] The cloak
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D1C@USCHM203>

I once ran through the Maxcy dorm parking lot at USC wearing only sneakers
and a Spuds McKenzie beach towel around my neck (yelling "SCIENCE!" at the
top of my lungs for reasons that now escape me)...does that count as wearing
a cloak? 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 10:11:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Aug  6 09:11:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
In-Reply-To: <3D4F7A61.BA9F032E@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028650204.113.ajackson@ping>

David Shayne writes:

> Standard densities. With Earth = 1. Doesn't look so horibly wrong now
> does it? 

Ok, that's not as bad.  

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 10:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Aug  6 09:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <p0433010cb974db4e1b41@[198.123.22.180]>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028650656.7515.ajackson@ping>

David P. Summers writes:

> You are assuming close packed spheres.

Actually, I'm assuming a flat 'shell' of fighters.  Volume covered is actually
third order in range.
> ground per sensor by moveing around).  Also, If you take sensor input 
> from multiple sensors and combine them, it is possible to generate 
> detection of things that couldn't be detected within the range of 
> anyone sensor.

GURPS doesn't really cover array sensors (if you're going to apply that bit of
realism, there's a lot of other realism tweaks you can make as well), but
interferometry really isn't going to help much with deep space detection, as
(a) it mostly improves resolution, not sensitivity, and (b) it massively
reduces coverage, meaning you're likely to miss objects entirely due to looking
in the wrong direction.
 
>  Lastly, the advantage that a fighter gives only its 
> own position, and not that of the capital ship, if it is caught first 
> is non-trivial

If stealth were particularly meaningful or interesting in space, sure.  In
practice, having multiple small ships just guarantees you'll be spotted, due to
other quirks in the sensor rules.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 10:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Aug  6 09:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020806201901.C28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028651185.1051.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:

> > with the Vehicles system beam weapons in space have no Acc cap,
> 
> However, in the Vehicles rules maximum accuracy bonus is limited to
> Gunnery skill, in this case 25.

Nope, the Vehicles rule is that the Acc bonus is not limited by Gunnery skill.

> How *big* a canister round?
> 
> You need to disable the missiles about 600 miles out, and they will
> probably be approaching from a region 200 miles across at that
> distance.

Huh?  At 600 miles, they're 2 seconds out; assuming 12G missiles, they can
travel up to 240 meters in that time, which means all the missiles need to be
within an area that small.  Assuming a missile is 0.3 meters across, I need to
set up a cloud of about a million objects.  At 300 miles per second, a 1mm
warhead does 6dx110 (which will oneshot missiles), so a 250mm warhead
(equivalent to a single missile) should be able to scatter on the order of 15
million bead, which is plenty to cover the required area at a high level of
reliability.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 10:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 09:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <74.20e88a02.2a814935@aol.com>

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Now that our good news is out in the public, it might be a good time to 
mention
that I've set up a Yahoo! discussion group for current and potential GURPS
Traveller freelancers. The home page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gtfreelance/

This isn't the *only* channel one can use to get information to and from me,
to be sure -- email to jon@sjgames.com works fine too! Still, I hope to use 
the
discussion group to help get news out and to work with authors to plan future
releases. If you're interested in writing for GURPS Traveller, you're more 
than
welcome to sign on.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Now that our good news is out in the public, it might be a good time to mention
<BR>that I've set up a Yahoo! discussion group for current and potential GURPS
<BR>Traveller freelancers. The home page is at:
<BR>
<BR>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gtfreelance/
<BR>
<BR>This isn't the *only* channel one can use to get information to and from me,
<BR>to be sure -- email to jon@sjgames.com works fine too! Still, I hope to use the
<BR>discussion group to help get news out and to work with authors to plan future
<BR>releases. If you're interested in writing for GURPS Traveller, you're more than
<BR>welcome to sign on.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_74.20e88a02.2a814935_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 10:33:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 09:33:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <74.20e88a02.2a814935@aol.com>

--part1_74.20e88a02.2a814935_boundary
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Now that our good news is out in the public, it might be a good time to 
mention
that I've set up a Yahoo! discussion group for current and potential GURPS
Traveller freelancers. The home page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gtfreelance/

This isn't the *only* channel one can use to get information to and from me,
to be sure -- email to jon@sjgames.com works fine too! Still, I hope to use 
the
discussion group to help get news out and to work with authors to plan future
releases. If you're interested in writing for GURPS Traveller, you're more 
than
welcome to sign on.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

--part1_74.20e88a02.2a814935_boundary
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Now that our good news is out in the public, it might be a good time to mention
<BR>that I've set up a Yahoo! discussion group for current and potential GURPS
<BR>Traveller freelancers. The home page is at:
<BR>
<BR>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gtfreelance/
<BR>
<BR>This isn't the *only* channel one can use to get information to and from me,
<BR>to be sure -- email to jon@sjgames.com works fine too! Still, I hope to use the
<BR>discussion group to help get news out and to work with authors to plan future
<BR>releases. If you're interested in writing for GURPS Traveller, you're more than
<BR>welcome to sign on.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_74.20e88a02.2a814935_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 10:36:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 09:36:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <74.20e88a02.2a814935@aol.com>

--part1_74.20e88a02.2a814935_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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Now that our good news is out in the public, it might be a good time to 
mention
that I've set up a Yahoo! discussion group for current and potential GURPS
Traveller freelancers. The home page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gtfreelance/

This isn't the *only* channel one can use to get information to and from me,
to be sure -- email to jon@sjgames.com works fine too! Still, I hope to use 
the
discussion group to help get news out and to work with authors to plan future
releases. If you're interested in writing for GURPS Traveller, you're more 
than
welcome to sign on.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

--part1_74.20e88a02.2a814935_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Now that our good news is out in the public, it might be a good time to mention
<BR>that I've set up a Yahoo! discussion group for current and potential GURPS
<BR>Traveller freelancers. The home page is at:
<BR>
<BR>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gtfreelance/
<BR>
<BR>This isn't the *only* channel one can use to get information to and from me,
<BR>to be sure -- email to jon@sjgames.com works fine too! Still, I hope to use the
<BR>discussion group to help get news out and to work with authors to plan future
<BR>releases. If you're interested in writing for GURPS Traveller, you're more than
<BR>welcome to sign on.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_74.20e88a02.2a814935_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 10:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Aug  6 09:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15E5@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

What about artists?  ;)
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: JFZeigler@aol.com [mailto:JFZeigler@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 8:46 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .


Now that our good news is out in the public, it might be a good time to mention 
that I've set up a Yahoo! discussion group for current and potential GURPS 
Traveller freelancers. The home page is at: 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gtfreelance/ 

This isn't the *only* channel one can use to get information to and from me, 
to be sure -- email to jon@sjgames.com works fine too! Still, I hope to use the 
discussion group to help get news out and to work with authors to plan future 
releases. If you're interested in writing for GURPS Traveller, you're more than 
welcome to sign on. 

---------- 
Jon F. Zeigler 
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller 
jon@sjgames.com 
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events." 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 11:33:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Aug  6 10:33:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The big fleet debate
Message-ID: <20020806173248.66761.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>

>What is the view toward using nukes for point defense?  Is it OK 
>since it is "defensive"?  I think the Imperium wouldn't allow it 
>(why do you have a nuke in the first place?) and it would only
>matter for fleet battles anyway...  So it would come down to any
>agreements, unspoken or otherwise, between the major powers (Impies
>vs Zhos, Impies vs Solos, Hivers vs the K'Kree) and whether it is
>seen as provoking retaliation.

I think you're mixing apples and oranges a little there.  Here are
the categories I see:

I. War between Imperial member states
A. On a world:  Possession or use of nuclear weapons for any purpose
will trigger Imperial intervention.  The underlying reason is that
any use of nuclear weapons, offensive or defensive, will irreparably
harm the world.
B. In space:  Nuclear weapons are allowed, but only limited commerce
raiding is allowed.  

II.  War between the Imperium and another state:  Anything goes, as
there is no general convention on warfare.  The objectives of the
warring parties determine how destructive they will be.  A state
seeking to take territory from another is unlikely to render the
target territory valueless.  A state seeking to create a buffer
between itself and a neighbor may think that a swath of dead and
barren systems is the best defense, but, on the other hand, may think
that thriving, independent systems are better.  

If one state starts destroying the surfaces of another's worlds, it
must accept that the other state will be able to jump past its
defenses and destroy the surface of its worlds as well.  There is
something of a balance of terror among the major states.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 11:40:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Aug  6 10:40:14 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Arbellatra
Message-ID: <20020806173952.59128.qmail@web20418.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Fred Ramen" <von_rammen@msn.com>

>My interpretation may also explain her meteoric rise to high command

>at such a young age--perhaps her title of Grand Admiral of the
>Marches was a ceremonial one, or rank was determined by noble
>standing to a much greater degree in the antebellum Imperium. 
>(Indeed, perhaps Arbellatra reformed the military to make it more
>egalitarian, not only to prevent a rival from rising in a fashion 
>like her own, but to insure loyalty to the Emperor and the Imperium 
>and not the individual commander, as seems to be the case with
>Plankwell and the other Emperors of the Flag.)

A few years ago (maybe more than a few -- I think it was 1996 or so),
I posted an idea to the TML that the antebellum Imperial Navy
followed a feudal model, in which warships, squadrons, and fleets
were in effect fiefs.  The Admiral was also a Duke, and was
responsible for raising the fleet, which meant paying for it.  His or
her Counts were commodores, his Marquises captains, and so on.  Thus
every crew member was a vassal owing loyalty to his or her commanding
officer.  One of Arbellatra's principal reforms was to develop a
professional navy, better suited to defending against ihatei and
Zhodani than fighting over the crown.

--Glenn


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 12:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Aug  6 11:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <20020806180404.28551.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng)

>This probably displays the depths of my ignorance, but can anybody 
>give me a description of how a unit's change of command ceremony
>goes?  I am looking specifically for the US Navy's protocol, but any
>nation or service is welcomed.

I had the good fortune to watch my high school friend Col. Steven R.
Corbett, U.S.A., assume command of the 91st support something or
other brigade at Fort Lewis, Washington, on 14 September 2001.  The
ceremony went something like this:

At the parade ground, seats had been set up under awnings on either
side of the reviewing stand.  The reviewing stand had a podium and
microphone, and there were big speakers somewhere.  

The guests, military and civilian, took seats at their own pace.  The
military personnel were wearing camouflage; the civilians dressed
casually.  I didn't see anyone in a dress uniform that day.  

The members of the brigade formed up in units on the parade ground. 
There were eight or ten units, each with its commanding officer in
front.  There were about 100 people in each unit, suggesting that the
units were companies.  

A mid-level officer (hereinafter the MC) opened the ceremonies by
welcoming everyone and announcing the national anthem.  We stood
while a recording of the national anthem played.  At some point
around then, the color guard marched onto the parade ground from the
audience's left, stopping and facing right at the reviewing stand. 
The colors included the national flag, the brigade's flag, and two
other unit flags (I think of subordinate units within the brigade).  

The base commander had a few remarks to welcome Col. Corbett and wish
the best for his retiring predecessor (whose name I have forgotten). 
The outgoing and incoming commanders then gave brief speeches; I
don't recall who went first.  Then the outgoing commander took the
incoming commander on an inspection of the formation.  They walked
around the entire unit clockwise while martial music played.  No,
they did not play the Liberty Bell March, although those of us in the
audience who had gone to high school together were expecting it.

During the inspection, the MC gave us a little background on the
medieval origins of the inspection.  

When the inspection was completed, the outgoing CO asked Col. Corbett
if he accepted the brigade, and Col. Corbett said that he did.  Then
the brigade's senior NCO and the base commander came out onto the
parade ground and passed the unit flag around as the four of them
stood in a circle.  If I recall correctly, the base commander passed
the flag to the senior NCO, who passed it to the outgoing CO, who
passed it to the new CO, who passed it back to the senior NCO.  The
flagpole crossed each CO's heart, signifying his willingness to give
his life for the unit and to do his utmost for its welfare.  

Then the color guard took back the flags, and the four guys returned
to the reviewing stand.  The base commander had a few closing
remarks, and then they played martial music as the color guard left
the field, followed by each of the other units.  

Then all of the military personnel went back to work.  Early in the
evening, the new CO threw a big barbecue at his house on post, and we
all ate and drank too much.

--Glenn



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 12:50:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Donald McKinney)
Date: Tue Aug  6 11:50:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Cleon V (was Arbellatra)
Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E03668975@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com>

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Actually, much more interesting than Arbellatra, is her direct predecessor, Cleon V.

Cleon V appointed Arbellatra to the troublesome position as Grand Admiral of the Marches, restored Imperial rule over the Sylean Core region, and basically, restored Imperial rule - except that a few Admirals and Nobles weren't ready for it yet, and they betrayed him.

Arbellatra's shoving Gustus off the throne is totally legitimate, as she's simply fulfilling her role as Cleon V's last supporter. 

Interestingly enough, a few years ago I wrote a brief document for my personal use, entertaining the notion that Arbellatra was Cleon V's naval attache, companion and close personal friend, that sending her to the Marches was because he truly felt that the Marches would need the best commander he could send against the Zhodani, and that when Arbellatra returned to the Core, it was all the anger of a lover that pushed her to do it.  I also explained the elevation of Archduke Soegz as the replacement of one of Emperor Joseph's (the man who defeated Cleon V, I hope I'm remembering right) backers...

The minute the Zhodani and Vargr were defeated and capable nobles in place to hold against them (like the Marquis of Regina), she turned her forces around and went back to Core...

I also used a Dreadnought named the "Cleon V" as the Corridor Fleet's flagship :)


DonM.

--__--__--

Message: 8
From: "Fred Ramen" <von_rammen@msn.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 22:03:33 -0400
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra (WAS: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes:

"Dibs Arbellatra.  One of my favorite people in Traveller history.  Someday
I'd love to write a sourcebook for the Arbellatra Regency."

Aye, mine too. Such a book might finally answer the question of just what
kind of leader she was.

IMHO, the model for Arbellatra is Augustus--not Julius--Caesar. That is, she
was more a illiant politician than a brilliant general. I base this on a few
factors:

1) She essentially lost the 2FW but still managed to declare victory and
mobilize the Marches behind her. (Remember, the Imperium ceded territory to
the Zhodani after the war, and Library Data mentions that the final
engagement resulted in a "stalemate" between the two sides. She basically
one the war the same way the U.S. "won" the War of 1812--by not losing as
badly as expected.)

2) It seems doubtful to me that even after a decade of civil war her
provincial fleet could cow the Vland Sector Fleet--yet she must have had the
cooperation of Vland sector, as others have pointed out, in order to
triumph. Again, this demonstrates her political acumen.

3) Her masterly stroke of refusing the crown is remarkably similar to
Augustus' own "retirement" from government--while in truth retaining a firm
grip on the reins of power. (The people of Rome demanded at one point that
he publish a list of candidates he favored, so they would know who to vote
for--not from coercion, but from a devotion to Augustus.)

My interpretation may also explain her meteoric rise to high command at such
a young age--perhaps her title of Grand Admiral of the Marches was a
ceremonial one, or rank was determined by noble standing to a much greater
degree in the antebellum Imperium. (Indeed, perhaps Arbellatra reformed the
military to make it more egalitarian, not only to prevent a rival from
rising in a fashion like her own, but to insure loyalty to the Emperor and
the Imperium and not the individual commander, as seems to be the case with
Plankwell and the other Emperors of the Flag.)

Fred "Arbellatra Divina" Ramen
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 12:51:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Tue Aug  6 11:51:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Landgrab
References: <B9742E4B.68481%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000201c23d7a$64a16b40$b300a8c0@imogen>

Does anyone have (or know of) some software  or  spreadsheet  for
creating ground vehicles using MT rules?  I need to create  about
a dozen different military vehicles for my Efate landgrab.

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 12:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Burns)
Date: Tue Aug  6 11:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
Message-ID: <20020806185605.50939.qmail@web10605.mail.yahoo.com>

I've been following this thread with some interest and
wondering if I should throw in my .02 crimps or not.
The reason for my interest is I'm in a PBEM TNE game
where we were given a few (24 ISTR) mines by our
handlers. So I went here:

http://www.downport.com/bard/bard/bardvera.html

and scrolling down to section 6500 - Satellites
checked out the mines and boosters listed there. I
never thought to check that the design was solid but
it looks good enough.

Anyway, given our mission and limited mines, I'm
thinking we'll use them one of two ways.

First as pursuit deterrents (drop one or two to drift
back along our vector and either the purser takes fire
and/or must manuever around buying us time to get
away. I'm trusting that even if he does spot one a
commander has to assume there may be more, and if one
blows up in his face same thing.

Second as 'debris' around any sensitive sights we find
to secure it till we get back, or to protect our
report drops till they are picked up by the courier,
who will have the disarming codes too.

I'm just getting back into TNE after a lot of years so
I still have to check the sensor rules but at least in
TNE I think spotting these things is going to be very
tough. Unlike GT where it seems you can spot those
nasty c-rocks at a few parsecs while they are ramped
up to speed, note the entry to j-space and be waiting
for the emergence a week later which will also show up
easily, right in the middle of your defence solution.
Oops, a rant? Well at least 'twas short ;)

Dan "far-trader" Burns

______________________________________________________________________ 
Post your ad for free now! http://personals.yahoo.ca

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:02:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:02:04 2002
Subject: [TML] J-4 X-boats, a justification
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEBGILAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Many people argue about many aspects of the X boat system,
saying that there are some less then optimal chooses in it's
makeup.

This is one possible argument in keeping the J-4 aspect to the
system.  The Xboat system is a part of a communication's system
designed with military and official communications in mind.  While
postal unions and private merchants carry cargo of one type or
another as mail, a great deal of information is carried in electronic
form.  Getting information to a patrolling cruisron, informing
a Marine TF that their services are needed, relaying the answer to
a question of Gribble Bugs in the Groats are things that need to
relayed to worlds off the Xboat network.  To do this regular off
the rack Type 's' scouts are employed,  By spacing Xboat stations no more
then jump four apart, a message can be broadcast to all worlds along a
Xboat trunk in one shot.  With communications delays as long as they
are already leaving holes in between xboat stations that require an
extra week or two to reach outlying badly compromised to utility of the
system.

I see an X boat station as a headquarters, a ground based station, the
assigned tenders and Xboats, and a flock of regular scouts assigned to the
station, in theory with enough scout to reach all systems within range in
one
shot, more likely with enough to hit all type C or better ports, important
installations and systems the navy says are likely to hold units on patrol.
At the same time a number of boats also float between systems, trying to
hit all systems or a frequent basis.  these are the boat that are routinely
performing donation studies, re surveys, update investigations and so forth.

these are the boats that are slated to end up in detached scout's hands,
having served as front line scouts then courier scout already.



________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:23:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:23:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Ok, now what
Message-ID: <200208061922.MEZ12591@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

First I keep reading that plasma weapons are not possible - 
the bolt would dissipate a short distance from the barrel.  
And now, at the tail end of the following article, 

http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/channel_awst.jsp?
view=story&id=news/aw080524.xml

I read that a plasma weapon is possible.
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:39:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:39:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <0964D40E.1498BB17.02280B06@aol.com>

Okay, that was strange.

I actually sent three *different* messages to the TML this
morning, and what appeared was three copies of the same
message. Fortunately, that was the only message that
absolutely had to get out, so no harm done. Go figure.

Thanks for your patience, everyone.

---------- 
Jon F. Zeigler 
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller 
jon@sjgames.com 
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:42:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:42:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Airsoft shooter
Message-ID: <B9757480.689C1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

I need to get educated about airsoft guns.  Any airsoft enthusiasts on the
tml, please contact me off list if you don't mind answering some stupid
questions.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:44:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:44:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra (WAS: warship optimization in traveller
 CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <00fa01c23ced$9eedde60$331df7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020806113510.45efd91c@pop.mindspring.com>

At 10:03 PM 8/5/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes:
>
>"Dibs Arbellatra.  One of my favorite people in Traveller history.  Someday
>I'd love to write a sourcebook for the Arbellatra Regency."
>
>Aye, mine too. Such a book might finally answer the question of just what
>kind of leader she was.

Focusing on Core during the Regency would be a big factor.  Starting at the
refusal of the crown, with pretenders and factions still fighting, to her
gracious assumption of the title of Empress.  A great deal happened in the
seven years between 622 and 629.

>IMHO, the model for Arbellatra is Augustus--not Julius--Caesar. That is, she
>was more a illiant politician than a brilliant general. I base this on a few
>factors:

Good model.  I was thinking a bit of Hitler, personally.  Same kind of
personal magnetism.

>1) She essentially lost the 2FW but still managed to declare victory and
>mobilize the Marches behind her. (Remember, the Imperium ceded territory to
>the Zhodani after the war, and Library Data mentions that the final
>engagement resulted in a "stalemate" between the two sides. She basically
>one the war the same way the U.S. "won" the War of 1812--by not losing as
>badly as expected.)

This might have come from misunderstanding Zhodani war goals.  Arbellatra
probably knew from the start that the Zhodani wanted to remove the Imperium
from Zhodani territory, not destroy the Imperium.  But playing up the image
of the Zho's as barbarians helped her cause.  A draw was as good as a
victory to her.

>2) It seems doubtful to me that even after a decade of civil war her
>provincial fleet could cow the Vland Sector Fleet--yet she must have had the
>cooperation of Vland sector, as others have pointed out, in order to
>triumph. Again, this demonstrates her political acumen.

She had a good line.  In this aspect, she's much like St. Jean d'Arc.  The
"Maid of Mora" driving to restore the Imperium!  She would find ready
converts in Deneb and Corridor. She probably played a different game with
the Vilani.  Promises of increased power in the court, culminating with her
son's marriage to a Vilani noblewoman in 679.  As she drew closer to
Capital, I'm sure that pretender fleets defected en masse rather than face
annihilation.

>3) Her masterly stroke of refusing the crown is remarkably similar to
>Augustus' own "retirement" from government--while in truth retaining a firm
>grip on the reins of power. (The people of Rome demanded at one point that
>he publish a list of candidates he favored, so they would know who to vote
>for--not from coercion, but from a devotion to Augustus.)

It is her that I am of two minds..  I sort of like the idea that she
honestly meant to find a surviving Zhunastu heir; only taking the throne
when that proved impossible.

>My interpretation may also explain her meteoric rise to high command at such
>a young age--perhaps her title of Grand Admiral of the Marches was a
>ceremonial one, or rank was determined by noble standing to a much greater
>degree in the antebellum Imperium. (Indeed, perhaps Arbellatra reformed the
>military to make it more egalitarian, not only to prevent a rival from
>rising in a fashion like her own, but to insure loyalty to the Emperor and
>the Imperium and not the individual commander, as seems to be the case with
>Plankwell and the other Emperors of the Flag.)

"Nothing succeeds like success" they say.  I've always sensed that along
with being politically brilliant, she was possibly the greatest strategic
and tactical mind the Imperium ever saw.  She was only 28 when the war
broke out, according to canon.  I'd prefer to push her date of birth back
to 567, making her 48 at the beginning of the war.  This at least gives her
the age to have had a fairly long career and been at least an experienced
Captain or junior Admiral.  This would, IMHO, make her seizure of the
fleets far more acceptable.  No one is going to listen to a pup of a Ltd.
Commander.

I think the title of Grand Admiral was given to her for no better reason
than she knew how to fight.  Look at all the generals that Lincoln broke
before finding Grant. She demonstrated the ability to win.  Before that,
the post maybe had been more political, but consider the event of the 1FW,
I somehow doubt it.  The Marches had just been cursed with a string of bad
leaders.

Wit my revised birth year, she is now 48 when the 2FW breaks out, 53 when
it ends.  She had to leave before the end of the war, since she defeats
Gustus in 622.  Have her, and a small fleet leave in late 618, leaving the
war to a trusted group of under commanders.  The history is murky here.
Perhaps the Zhodani were broken by mid-618, and the last ~18 months were
mopping up and retaking worlds?

She arrives in the Core no later than early 621, when a large armada. Along
the way, she defeats several pretenders, and forces a battle with Gustus at
the Second Battle of Zhimaway.  Proceeding to Capital, she declares herself
regent in late 622, at the age of 55.  Becomes Empress in 629 at 62, Dies
in 666 at 99.  Marries late, first son born in 624.

Does this time line work for people?
-- 

Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.
gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html

Author of GT: Ground Forces                               

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:45:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:45:49 2002
Subject: [TML] GURPS Interstellar Wars
In-Reply-To: <20020806.081920.-291705.0.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020806113717.35e7dade@pop.mindspring.com>

At 08:19 AM 8/6/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>Many of you have probably already run across this, but for those who
>haven't, check out Evil Stevie's Daily Illuminator
>(http://www.sjgames.com/ill/) for the 8/6/02 entry.

Note to self:  Check the author solicitation page when the good computer
gets home today...

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:47:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:47:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNGEMBEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <3.0.5.16.20020805112347.358f6ef0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020806114206.364f75c8@pop.mindspring.com>

At 08:57 PM 8/5/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>>Here's a fun game to play if you have Ground Forces.  You are a Force
>>Lieutenant assigned to a Caen-class ship.  You are lying in your bunk, and
>>feeling a bit peckish.  How do you get to the officer's mess?  :)

>Let me start by saying I absolutely love 95% of Ground Forces. I think the
>colors great. I like everything from the unit structure information, to the
>battledress designs, to the modular grav design system.

Thanks, and a tip'o the helmet to David Pulver for the MVD system.

>The one thing I can't stand is the ship designs. I loath the Caen. Among
>other problems: Where are the navy ratings bunked? They certainly wouldn't
>be with the Marines, not since the rest of canon says that they should be
>living in staterooms, which I would suppose are separate from the officer's
>staterooms. I could go on and on about the failings of the design, but I
>don't want to rant.

I have problems with the Caen deckplans myself.  It was designed as a very
"close" ship, and I did put in that the rest of the Navy thinks the crews
that work the Caens are oddballs.  If you have an improved design, I'd love
to see it.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:49:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:49:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15E5@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020806114452.35e793a8@pop.mindspring.com>

At 09:43 AM 8/6/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>What about artists?  ;)

Back in your hole, polygon boy!  When we want something from you, we'll do
the usual thing.  Toss a contract and art specs in your cage and pray you
don't ruin our finely crafted prose with your "art."

:)
-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of
limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:50:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:50:57 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  The cloak
In-Reply-To: <20020806004801.59831.qmail@web20422.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020806114720.4637dd7c@pop.mindspring.com>

At 05:48 PM 8/5/2002 -0700, you wrote:

>ca. 1100s, they are in fashion at the Imperial court, and therefore
>commonly worn by nobles everywhere.  Commoners only wear them when
>the weather demands it.

I'd think that fashion would trickle down, and you see knock-offs of famous
designers and K-Martish places with their own lines.

IMTU, they're common.  Useful things, cloaks.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:52:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:52:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <159.120df85e.2a809f36@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020806115248.35e748b0@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:40 PM 8/5/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>I would agree.  But as you will observe in Afghanistan (and arguably Serbia) 
>they did it by putting someone else's young men into the mud -- and not all 
>that many of those.  I seem to remember something along those lines in 
>Gibbons ....

That army was just laying there...

Seriously, from our point of view, Afghanistan was as close to a perfect
situation as you can get.  All we had to do was provide air & logisitcal
support, and the population in the are being attacked wasn't too thrilled
with the current government.  They all aren't going to be that way.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:53:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:53:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <20020806021137.13bb35092d5d49ae9344179b452c1788.in@keywest
 .kennett.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020806120321.46dfdc16@pop.mindspring.com>

At 02:13 AM 8/6/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>Hi,
>
>This probably displays the depths of my ignorance, but can anybody give me a
>description of how a unit's change of command ceremony goes?  I am looking
>specifically for the US Navy's protocol, but any nation or service is
welcomed.

Well, from my point of view, an Army change of command ceremony (c. 1985)
consists of the following:

1. Polish brass.

2. Drop off dress greens at dry cleaners.

3. Hear that the order has been changed, we'll be in battle gear.

4. Curse about blowing $15 on dry cleaning.

5. Drop off good BDUs at dry cleaners.  (Good meaning these puppies will
never see the field, and are worn only for inspections.)

6. Pay some kid at the PX ten bucks to spit shine my jump boots.

7. Run to Ranger Joe's for clean TA-50 pieces.

8. Get haircut.

9. Practise marching.

10. Get assigned to be a roadgaurd again, due to lack of marching ability.

11. Get inspected.

12. March to Brigade parade ground.

13. Stand in formation.

14. Old Bastard makes a speech.

15. Wonder what difference all this marching will make when the Soviets
come over the border.

16. Something involving the unit colors, but you can't see.

17. New Bastard makes a speech.  Officers love to make speeches.

18. Fall asleep at attention.

19. Wake up at Parade Rest.

20. March back to barracks, replace dart board picture of Old Bastard with
New Bastard, get drunk.

(I'm in a silly mood today.)
-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Animals who are not penguins can only wish they were.
-Chicago reader, 10/15/82

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:55:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:55:14 2002
Subject: [TML] The cloak
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D1C@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020806120600.46dfd798@pop.mindspring.com>

At 10:40 AM 8/6/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>I once ran through the Maxcy dorm parking lot at USC wearing only sneakers
>and a Spuds McKenzie beach towel around my neck (yelling "SCIENCE!" at the
>top of my lungs for reasons that now escape me)...does that count as wearing
>a cloak? 

No, but it will count against you at the commitment hearing...
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"Genetically" we are nearly identical to fruit flies.  On the
other hand, as a species we write better string quartets. 
				- Rich Clancey


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:57:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:57:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <2BD831D2.5F2F4C54.02280B06@aol.com>

> What about artists?  ;)

Hey, Jesse. Artists are more than welcome to join the
Yahoo! group too, although you should be aware that art
is Not My Department. Any queries about art for the GT
line will probably end up being passed along to other
people at SJG.

---------- 
Jon F. Zeigler 
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller 
jon@sjgames.com 
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:59:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:59:11 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
References: <200208061208.MEL01964@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D50270F.5080001@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:

> This is the Sagan hypothesis - that sufficiently advanced 
> alien life forms will have learned to be "peaceful".  There 
> is no reason that this has to be so.  If a warlike species 
> came to be dominated by a single high tech faction, through 
> limited nuclear war and genocidal action, and used this high 
> technology to permanently dominate and subjugate its 
> population, it would survive its birth into a nuclear age and 
> birth into a starfaring age.

Give the history of such factions here, I rather doubt that this is the 
case. If these sentients are anything like humans, they do not have the 
infinite capacity for evil you presuppose.

Humans have proven to be very good at routing around opression, and 
eroding it from it's weak points.

Even the total police states of Romania and East Germany fell, sometimes 
in a matter of *weeks*, once the Soviet threat was shown to be hollow. 
As brutal as the Sucuritat was, and the fact htat they had pretty much 
co-opted the entire Romanian population into their web of informants, 
they dissolved into a scattering of scared bullies, trying to outrun the 
lynch mobs.

Rome *was* a high-tech faction that ruled through genocidal action (when 
needed) It's hegemony lasted only a few hundred years, and then only 
over a rather small area of the world.

Your *perfect evil dictator* is unlikely to ever exist. Whilst they 
might make for pretty tale in SF novels, the history of our planet 
towards such hegemony does not support this.

High-tech communications almost guarantees this...look at the struggles 
opressive regimes here have with the now humble fax machine, let alone 
the internet.

A regime that had such total control over information would unlikely be 
able to manage the technologicical advances needed to get much beyond LEO.

You cannot simultaneously restrict the flow of information and maintain 
a growing 'research economy', any more than you can manage a monetaryu 
economy the same way. (The other reason the Soviets fell)

After all, who won the race to the moon?

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:01:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (markc@peak.org)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:01:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <18690-22002826195016420@M2W075.mail2web.com>

Jesse DeGraff <Jesse=2EDeGraff@netapp=2Ecom> writes:

> What about artists?  ;)

Sure, why not?  Do you know any? >^)

    - Mark C=2E

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:03:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:03:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15EC@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

No more grav tanks you Penguin Boy ;)

And that should read:
"When we want something from you, we'll do the usual thing.  *At the last minute,* toss a contract and, *if you're lucky*, art specs in your cage and pray you don't ruin our finely crafted prose with your "art."

Jesse


-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas E. Berry [mailto:gridlore@pop.mindspring.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 4:45 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .


At 09:43 AM 8/6/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>What about artists?  ;)

Back in your hole, polygon boy!  When we want something from you, we'll do
the usual thing.  Toss a contract and art specs in your cage and pray you
don't ruin our finely crafted prose with your "art."

:)
-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of
limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:06:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:06:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15EE@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Gee, ALL the clowns are coming out of the woodwork ;)  BTW, is the December shoot going to happen?
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: markc@peak.org [mailto:markc@peak.org]
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 12:50 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .


Jesse DeGraff <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> writes:

> What about artists?  ;)

Sure, why not?  Do you know any? >^)

    - Mark C.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:08:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:08:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020806120321.46dfdc16@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020806200438.2448.qmail@web11004.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
wrote:
> At 02:13 AM 8/6/2002 -0400, you wrote:
> >Hi,
> >
> >This probably displays the depths of my ignorance,
> but can anybody give me a
> >description of how a unit's change of command
> ceremony goes?  I am looking
> >specifically for the US Navy's protocol, but any
> nation or service is
> welcomed.
> 
> Well, from my point of view, an Army change of
> command ceremony (c. 1985)
> consists of the following:
> 
> 1. Polish brass.
> 
> 2. Drop off dress greens at dry cleaners.
> 
> 3. Hear that the order has been changed, we'll be in
> battle gear.
> 
> 4. Curse about blowing $15 on dry cleaning.
> 
> 5. Drop off good BDUs at dry cleaners.  (Good
> meaning these puppies will
> never see the field, and are worn only for
> inspections.)
> 
> 6. Pay some kid at the PX ten bucks to spit shine my
> jump boots.
> 
> 7. Run to Ranger Joe's for clean TA-50 pieces.
> 
> 8. Get haircut.
> 
> 9. Practise marching.
> 
> 10. Get assigned to be a roadgaurd again, due to
> lack of marching ability.
> 
> 11. Get inspected.
> 
> 12. March to Brigade parade ground.
> 
> 13. Stand in formation.
> 
> 14. Old Bastard makes a speech.
> 
> 15. Wonder what difference all this marching will
> make when the Soviets
> come over the border.
> 
> 16. Something involving the unit colors, but you
> can't see.
> 
> 17. New Bastard makes a speech.  Officers love to
> make speeches.
> 
> 18. Fall asleep at attention.
> 
> 19. Wake up at Parade Rest.
> 
> 20. March back to barracks, replace dart board
> picture of Old Bastard with
> New Bastard, get drunk.
> 
> (I'm in a silly mood today.)
> -- 
> 
> Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
>   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
> 
  >>
  Yeah....but your memory is about as good as mine. 

  OTOH, if it wasn't for my dazzling marching skills,
I'd have never gotten out of so much work.....that,
and the fact that I jumped to voluteer for it, knowing
in advance that selections were being made for mess
duty that day.......

  Michael "Hide & Slide" Cessna
  Box-kicker Supreme
  >>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:14:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:14:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020806113510.45efd91c@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <3.0.5.16.20020806113510.45efd91c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m3u1m7oie8.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes:

> She was only 28 when the war broke out, according to canon.  I'd
> prefer to push her date of birth back to 567, making her 48 at the
> beginning of the war.  This at least gives her the age to have had a
> fairly long career and been at least an experienced Captain or
> junior Admiral.  This would, IMHO, make her seizure of the fleets
> far more acceptable.  No one is going to listen to a pup of a Ltd.
> Commander.

They will if she's That Good.  Perhaps in the IN of the time,
midshipmen were inducted at 13.  Also, recall that we're talking about
the military of a feudal state; if one shows great promise, there's no
inherent reason one might not rise _very_ quickly.  Same if one's the
girlfriend of an Emperor...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Digital files cannot be made uncopyable, any more than water can be made
not wet.                   --Bruce Schneier on `copy protection' schemes

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:23:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:23:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020806173248.66761.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020806173248.66761.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p04330104b975de6771f8@[143.232.119.186]>

At 10:32 AM -0700 8/6/02, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>I. War between Imperial member states
>A. On a world:  Possession or use of nuclear weapons for any purpose
>will trigger Imperial intervention.  The underlying reason is that
>any use of nuclear weapons, offensive or defensive, will irreparably
>harm the world.
>B. In space:  Nuclear weapons are allowed, but only limited commerce
>raiding is allowed.

Isn't the _possession_ of nuke illegal (the Traveller Adventure has 
nuke anti-ship missils as being illegal).  That is what I would do, 
since I'm not sure you want anyone to be in a postion to nuke a 
planet....

>II.  War between the Imperium and another state:  Anything goes, as
>there is no general convention on warfare.  The objectives of the
>warring parties determine how destructive they will be.  A state
>seeking to take territory from another is unlikely to render the
>target territory valueless.  A state seeking to create a buffer
>between itself and a neighbor may think that a swath of dead and
>barren systems is the best defense, but, on the other hand, may think
>that thriving, independent systems are better.

Of course limited by unspoken agreements and threats of retaliation.

>
>If one state starts destroying the surfaces of another's worlds, it
>must accept that the other state will be able to jump past its
>defenses and destroy the surface of its worlds as well.  There is
>something of a balance of terror among the major states.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:24:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:24:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15E5@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15E5@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <p04330105b975df61ad02@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:43 AM -0700 8/6/02, DeGraff, Jesse wrote:
>What about artists?  ;)
>Jesse


Do you have any experience?  :-)
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:31:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff D. Greenly)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:31:18 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <sd4ff8f8.002@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>

Keeping in mind that it's been a while...

A Naval change of command reflects the fact that the Captain of the
vessel/unit/whatever IS the vessel/unit/whatever. So, the departing
officer is "piped aboard" to the podium and announced as "<Unit Name>,
arriving" He gives his speech to the hands, then the ship's bell is rung
(even in a land station) and he is "piped over the side" and announced
by his name and rank. The new officer goes through the same thing in
reverse. He/She is announced by name and rank, gives a speech, then is
announced as "<unit name>, departing" and the ships bell is rung. There
are a bunch of salutes and "permission to come aboard, sirs" and so on,
but the one essential fact to remember is that the new and old
commmanding officers are changing their identities. "USS Rochester,
Arriving" goes back to being Commander Schmuck, USN, and Commander
Foobar becomes "USS Rochester" Just as a interesting side note, they've
been doing an abbreviated form of this aboard the Space Station,
although it's not really a change of command. There's a ship's bell on
board and it's rung when the Shuttle docks up or breaks away with the
announcement "<ShuttleName>, Arriving (or Departing)" 

I think that because the Imperial Navy has such a long history, it
probably has a lot of cool traditions. Anything that you threw in for
color, like Marines in some traditional dress uniforms standing behind
the "quarterdeck", the transfer of a baton, staff or whistle, maybe a
reading of the ship's history...

Jeff

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:36:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:36:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra (WAS: warship optimization in traveller
 CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020806113510.45efd91c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208061330150.8694-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 6 Aug 2002, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> >IMHO, the model for Arbellatra is Augustus--not Julius--Caesar. That is, she
> >was more a illiant politician than a brilliant general. I base this on a few
> >factors:

Please don't make her so much of a hypocritical prig.

> Good model.  I was thinking a bit of Hitler, personally.  Same kind of
> personal magnetism.

EEK!!!  But I like Arbellatra!

> >1) She essentially lost the 2FW but still managed to declare victory and
> >mobilize the Marches behind her. (Remember, the Imperium ceded territory to
> >the Zhodani after the war, and Library Data mentions that the final
> >engagement resulted in a "stalemate" between the two sides. She basically
> >one the war the same way the U.S. "won" the War of 1812--by not losing as
> >badly as expected.)
> 
> This might have come from misunderstanding Zhodani war goals.  Arbellatra
> probably knew from the start that the Zhodani wanted to remove the Imperium
> from Zhodani territory, not destroy the Imperium.  But playing up the image
> of the Zho's as barbarians helped her cause.  A draw was as good as a
> victory to her.

Ah, yes.

> >2) It seems doubtful to me that even after a decade of civil war her
> >provincial fleet could cow the Vland Sector Fleet--yet she must have had the
> >cooperation of Vland sector, as others have pointed out, in order to
> >triumph. Again, this demonstrates her political acumen.
> 
> She had a good line.  In this aspect, she's much like St. Jean d'Arc.  The
> "Maid of Mora" driving to restore the Imperium!  She would find ready
> converts in Deneb and Corridor. She probably played a different game with
> the Vilani.  Promises of increased power in the court, culminating with her
> son's marriage to a Vilani noblewoman in 679.  As she drew closer to
> Capital, I'm sure that pretender fleets defected en masse rather than face
> annihilation.

I like Arbellatra la Pucelle much better than Arbellatra as Hitler.

> It is her that I am of two minds..  I sort of like the idea that she
> honestly meant to find a surviving Zhunastu heir; only taking the throne
> when that proved impossible.

I do, too.

> I think the title of Grand Admiral was given to her for no better reason
> than she knew how to fight.  

Amen!
 
> She arrives in the Core no later than early 621, when a large armada. Along
> the way, she defeats several pretenders, and forces a battle with Gustus at
> the Second Battle of Zhimaway.  Proceeding to Capital, she declares herself
> regent in late 622, at the age of 55.  Becomes Empress in 629 at 62, Dies
> in 666 at 99.  Marries late, first son born in 624.
> 
> Does this time line work for people?

It will for me.

Kiri :)
**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:55:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:55:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra (WAS: warship optimization in traveller
 CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020806113510.45efd91c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208061330150.8694-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 6 Aug 2002, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> >IMHO, the model for Arbellatra is Augustus--not Julius--Caesar. That is, she
> >was more a illiant politician than a brilliant general. I base this on a few
> >factors:

Please don't make her so much of a hypocritical prig.

> Good model.  I was thinking a bit of Hitler, personally.  Same kind of
> personal magnetism.

EEK!!!  But I like Arbellatra!

> >1) She essentially lost the 2FW but still managed to declare victory and
> >mobilize the Marches behind her. (Remember, the Imperium ceded territory to
> >the Zhodani after the war, and Library Data mentions that the final
> >engagement resulted in a "stalemate" between the two sides. She basically
> >one the war the same way the U.S. "won" the War of 1812--by not losing as
> >badly as expected.)
> 
> This might have come from misunderstanding Zhodani war goals.  Arbellatra
> probably knew from the start that the Zhodani wanted to remove the Imperium
> from Zhodani territory, not destroy the Imperium.  But playing up the image
> of the Zho's as barbarians helped her cause.  A draw was as good as a
> victory to her.

Ah, yes.

> >2) It seems doubtful to me that even after a decade of civil war her
> >provincial fleet could cow the Vland Sector Fleet--yet she must have had the
> >cooperation of Vland sector, as others have pointed out, in order to
> >triumph. Again, this demonstrates her political acumen.
> 
> She had a good line.  In this aspect, she's much like St. Jean d'Arc.  The
> "Maid of Mora" driving to restore the Imperium!  She would find ready
> converts in Deneb and Corridor. She probably played a different game with
> the Vilani.  Promises of increased power in the court, culminating with her
> son's marriage to a Vilani noblewoman in 679.  As she drew closer to
> Capital, I'm sure that pretender fleets defected en masse rather than face
> annihilation.

I like Arbellatra la Pucelle much better than Arbellatra as Hitler.

> It is her that I am of two minds..  I sort of like the idea that she
> honestly meant to find a surviving Zhunastu heir; only taking the throne
> when that proved impossible.

I do, too.

> I think the title of Grand Admiral was given to her for no better reason
> than she knew how to fight.  

Amen!
 
> She arrives in the Core no later than early 621, when a large armada. Along
> the way, she defeats several pretenders, and forces a battle with Gustus at
> the Second Battle of Zhimaway.  Proceeding to Capital, she declares herself
> regent in late 622, at the age of 55.  Becomes Empress in 629 at 62, Dies
> in 666 at 99.  Marries late, first son born in 624.
> 
> Does this time line work for people?

It will for me.

Kiri :)
**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 15:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Tue Aug  6 14:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com> <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net> <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <20020805075953.A24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <3436.64.8.3.28.1028520584.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <20020805215043.E25687@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3D4F3B54.62F77189@mindspring.com>

Timothy Little wrote:
> 
> hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> > There is always the ability to design bigger and faster missiles using
> > GURPS VEHICLES and the guidelines presented with TRAVELLER itself.
> 
> Yes, that's what I'm wondering about.  Do I want to design better
> weapons and tactics for my Traveller game, at the expense of making it
> less like Traveller?  Or do I try to rationalise the existing ones to
> maintain compatibility with what other people have done?
> 
> >  A friend of mine created an inertial guided missile that removes
> > the explosive warhead from the missile and turned it into a kinetic
> > kill device.
> 
> Yes; either remove the chemical warhead or replace it with a fusion
> warhead.  A chemical explosive makes little sense.  Even the standard
> missiles accelerate to 72 km/s in the first round -- putting a
> chemical explosive in them is a bit like putting a spring-loaded
> boxing glove on an anti-tank penetrator.

I always considered the HE as essentially a frag grenade for ships. A
small cloud of debris having a better chance to hit. 

> 
> > The missile frigate then starts a high speed run against the
> > intended target and launches its missiles outside of sensor range of
> > an enemy ship.
> 
> That works under the standard rules, too.  I've had vague thoughts in
> the same direction, but didn't actually get round to testing them.
> 
> > Do the math and see how much damage a single missile moving at 90
> > hexes per turn does ;)

Thanks for a nasty tactic. The Forinians IMMTU are going to be using
that. I was going to have to bring in more help. I think it will be
quite a suprise to my players.



-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline. It
helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear
weapons, but the very least you need a beer.
         - Frank Zappa


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 16:14:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Aug  6 15:14:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The big fleet debate
Message-ID: <20020806220841.64120.qmail@web20417.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>

>>B. In space:  Nuclear weapons are allowed, but only limited
commerce
>>raiding is allowed.
>
>Isn't the _possession_ of nuke illegal (the Traveller Adventure has 
>nuke anti-ship missils as being illegal).  That is what I would do, 
>since I'm not sure you want anyone to be in a postion to nuke a 
>planet....

That is certainly a workable approach.  The Imperium has to balance
removing the most effective anti-ship weapons from their law-abiding
merchants against the risk of misuse of those weapons (under many
very easy to effectuate scenarios) against worlds.  

--Glenn


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 16:21:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Aug  6 15:21:11 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <20020806221929.46060.qmail@web20418.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Jeff D. Greenly" <jgreenly@hsc.wvu.edu>
>
>I think that because the Imperial Navy has such a long history, it
>probably has a lot of cool traditions. Anything that you threw in
for
>color, like Marines in some traditional dress uniforms standing 
>behind the "quarterdeck", the transfer of a baton, staff or whistle,
>maybe a reading of the ship's history...

Definitely make up some cool stuff and tell us about it!  Don't
forget to include weird stuff that comes out of the Vilani
traditions, too.

--Glenn



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 16:25:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Tue Aug  6 15:25:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
References: <20020806021137.13bb35092d5d49ae9344179b452c1788.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <3D504BD3.B4316290@mindspring.com>

Cheng Tseng wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> This probably displays the depths of my ignorance, but can anybody give me a
> description of how a unit's change of command ceremony goes?  I am looking
> specifically for the US Navy's protocol, but any nation or service is welcomed.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> C.T.

From my experience of five change of command ceremonies. Two at
pierside*
Enlisted are taken out of their workspaces and put into the most
uncomfortable uniform and put at ease in the sun, usually on asphalt or
concrete. *Or a steel deck if available. 
After an interminable wait some O's come out and congratulate each other
on what fine people they are and what a good job they've done and are
going to do. 
Then the enlisted are sent back to work and the O's have a party.

-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
If you can't convince them, confuse them.
                -Harry S. Truman

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 16:33:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fred Ramen)
Date: Tue Aug  6 15:33:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
Message-ID: <003401c23d98$a70d8680$da29f7a5@pctframen>

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>

>>"Nothing succeeds like success" they say.  I've always sensed that along
with being politically brilliant, she was possibly the greatest strategic
and tactical mind the Imperium ever saw.  She was only 28 when the war
broke out, according to canon.  I'd prefer to push her date of birth back
to 567, making her 48 at the beginning of the war.  This at least gives her
the age to have had a fairly long career and been at least an experienced
Captain or junior Admiral.  This would, IMHO, make her seizure of the
fleets far more acceptable.  No one is going to listen to a pup of a Ltd.
Commander.<<

I'm probably in a tiny minority here, but I remain unconvinced about
Arbellatra's strategic brilliance. Certainly her conduct of the 2FW does not
seem to have a personal stamp upon it the way Norris' saving strategy in the
5FW does. Canonical info on the war is spotty, of course, but it is
described as a "holding action" accompanied by commerce raids. When the
dreadnoughts are finally constructed, Arbellatra does not lead them on a
reconquest of the Marches, but merely forces a stalemate...and then promptly
concedes territory to the Zhodani, as well as separating several other
worlds from the Imperium. Compare Norris, who does in fact lead a reconquest
that restores the status quo antebellum, as well as changing the strategic
makeup of the states in the Marches in the Imperium's favor.

>>I think the title of Grand Admiral was given to her for no better reason
than she knew how to fight.  Look at all the generals that Lincoln broke
before finding Grant. She demonstrated the ability to win.  Before that,
the post maybe had been more political, but consider the event of the 1FW,
I somehow doubt it.  The Marches had just been cursed with a string of bad
leaders.<<

Yes, but in the canonical timeline she is simply too young, and Cleon V is
around for too short a time for this to work. (He rules for three years, the
first of which is the first year of the 2FW; this would imply that
Arbellatra could not have been appointed by him prior to 616 or so, unless
she was already known to him for some reason.)

I myself like the idea that the Alikhalikoi family were prominent supporters
of Cleon's faction, or perhaps loyalists who resisted Olav. They may have
been pretenders to a duchy in the Marches, or had had their title revoked.
What may have happened is that an older member of the Alikhalikoi family was
actually appointed by Cleon, but due to death or other happenstance was
unable to actually serve. Arbellatra was then chosen because she was the
least controversial candidate--her family had the commission, she was the
heir, and her youth would allow her to be manipulated by the other nobles.
Her brilliance was that she ended up dominating them. (To bring in Doug's
Hitler analogy, compare the way the right wing thought they would dominate
Hitler in 1933. Or how Lincoln routinely outmanuevered his cabinet members
political ambition.)

>>Wit my revised birth year, she is now 48 when the 2FW breaks out, 53 when
it ends.  She had to leave before the end of the war, since she defeats
Gustus in 622.  Have her, and a small fleet leave in late 618, leaving the
war to a trusted group of under commanders.  The history is murky here.
Perhaps the Zhodani were broken by mid-618, and the last ~18 months were
mopping up and retaking worlds?

She arrives in the Core no later than early 621, when a large armada. Along
the way, she defeats several pretenders, and forces a battle with Gustus at
the Second Battle of Zhimaway.  Proceeding to Capital, she declares herself
regent in late 622, at the age of 55.  Becomes Empress in 629 at 62, Dies
in 666 at 99.  Marries late, first son born in 624.<<

I have no problem with this as an alternate timeline. I guess my point is
merely that this kind of surgery is necessary to produce Arbellatra the
Conqueror. Canon allows for a different picture to be read between the
lines, IMHO. To bring back Augustus, Arbellatra may have succeeded in
keeping the throne because, like Octavian, she was just enough of a general
to have won the war but obviously not some one who could only rule by virtue
of the sword. That is, as an UNprofessional Admiral, she would have the
support of a populace thoroughly sick of what the professional soldiers had
been doing for twenty years.

All IMHO, YMMV, IANAGD, etc.

Fred Ramen


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 16:33:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug  6 15:33:28 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1028651185.1051.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020806201901.C28821@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1028651185.1051.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020807082917.A30389@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Nope, the Vehicles rule is that the Acc bonus is not limited by
> Gunnery skill.

Where does it say that?  I must have missed it :/


> Huh?  At 600 miles, they're 2 seconds out; assuming 12G missiles,
> they can travel up to 240 meters in that time, which means all the
> missiles need to be within an area that small.

You're assuming the missiles only use their thrusters transversely in
the last 2 seconds, which is what I (as attacker) would want you to
think ;)


Consider the trajectories of a salvo of missiles that initially
accelerate at just under 12G for two turns, aimed up to 11 degrees
away from the victim (it works out to 11.8G minimum axial component).
They all choose a different off-axis direction within that cone, and
maintain the same axial component of acceleration.

Then they all use up to 7G of transverse acceleration for two more
turns to curve back in toward the victim while still maintaining more
than 9G axial component (actually up to 9.7G).

All their trajectories pass through the victim with a forward
component of 42 hexes per turn, but their sideways component varies by
up to 14 hexes per turn in random directions.

Oops, that means I miscalculated earlier.  At 600 miles range the
region of incoming missiles has a *radius* of 200 miles, for a
diameter of 400 miles.  Better multiply the canister mass by 4.

As an aside, if we're using Vehicles to calculate impactor damage,
then the incoming missiles do more than four times as damage when they
hit (average 6dx19700(5) each) than they do in GURPS Traveller
(6dx4300(5) each).


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 16:43:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue Aug  6 15:43:04 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
In-Reply-To: <006301c23ce3$2bcea180$eeb18b90@computer>
References: <006301c23ce3$2bcea180$eeb18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <3d50427f.7657767@post.demon.co.uk>

"Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com> writes:

>The counter mix from Invasion Earth might be worth studying.

There aren't any TL15 units on either side. =20

The Imperial Marines are 78% TL14 (1 division, 3 regiments) plus 2 IM
regiments at TL12 and TL13.

The Imperial regular army is 70% TL14, 20% TL13, 10% TL12.

Imperial colonial forces (which account for about 30% of the total
Imperial strength) are TL11 - TL14, with TL12 being the norm.

Solomani regular troops are 43% TL14, 42% TL 13, 11% TL12 and 4% TL11.
The local Terran guerrillas are all TL 13.

Stephen
(Incidentally, I remember there being a single 1-point TL 16 unit in
=46FW, which I always assumed to be the player characters!)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 16:43:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Aug  6 15:43:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
References: <003401c23d98$a70d8680$da29f7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <3D5050EB.9050601@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Fred Ramen wrote:

> I'm probably in a tiny minority here, but I remain unconvinced about
> Arbellatra's strategic brilliance. Certainly her conduct of the 2FW does not
> seem to have a personal stamp upon it the way Norris' saving strategy in the
> 5FW does. Canonical info on the war is spotty, of course, but it is
> described as a "holding action" accompanied by commerce raids. When the
> dreadnoughts are finally constructed, Arbellatra does not lead them on a
> reconquest of the Marches, but merely forces a stalemate...and then promptly
> concedes territory to the Zhodani, as well as separating several other
> worlds from the Imperium. 

Probably this is because she knows she needs to a) bring an end ASAP to 
the 2FW, and b) She needs those Dreadnaughts to end the rebellion, 
rather than throwing them into a likely bloody fight to beat the Zhodani 
back.

The Zho's, being in an expansionist mood at the moment, are only too 
happy to help her achieve her goals.

Her goal was not to *win* the 2FW, but to *end* it with enough power and 
fleets strength to go fight the REAL battle, that of re-unifying the 
Imperium.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 16:43:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue Aug  6 15:43:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Aircraft carrier displacement
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D0D@USCHM203>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D0D@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <3d514ac0.9770968@post.demon.co.uk>

"Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> writes:

>	5 tons gross ship displacement(in today's nautical terms)=3D1
>displacement ton in Traveller.

On that basis, then:

Battleship HMS Victory (TL3) 2164 tons =3D just over 400 dtons (the size
of a patrol cruiser)
=46rigate USS Constitution (TL3) 1576 tons =3D 300 dtons
=46rigate HMS Warrior (TL4) 9137 tons =3D 1800 dtons
Monitor USS Monitor (TL4) 987 tons =3D 200 dtons (a free trader)
Typical Spanish or Portuguese ship from the age of exploration,
15th/16th century (TL2) 80 tons =3D 16 dtons.  (Magellan or Columbus
would have thought a Caen-class marine dropship's bunkroom
accommodation to be sheer luxury...)

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 17:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Aug  6 16:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <m3y9bqqsbp.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20806.152713.5c8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:
>> 
>> We extend POW's and noncombatants a certain amount of "courtesy" and
>> expect the same from our enemies.  Our culture (at least for now)
>> calls for this courtesy to be extended even if it is not returned.
>
> IMHO civilian opinion that's foolish.  The deal should be play by our
> rules or we play by none.  That is, we'll refrain from using NBC
> weapons, we'll take prisoners, we'll treat them right, we'll avoid
> hitting civilians for exactly so long as the other side does.  If they
> don't, then we don't; instead we run up the black flag and fight
> dirty.  It's not as though they'd retaliate by fighting dirty; they
> already do.

Thing is, we've already set the precedent that failing to abide by the
rules during a war will get those responsible tried as *criminals*
after the war. 

And yes, we were rather hypocritical in that we should have tried the
people on our own side who were responsible for things like Dresden.

We *do* have the stated policy of responding to use of weapons of mass
destruction with weapons of mass destruction. And we carefully avoid
stating that we will retaliate "in kind". Odds are that we'd respond to
bioagents with nukes, simply because have nukes, and frankly they are a
hell of a lot *safer* for all concerned. 

Chemical attacks I'm not sure. 

But shooting prisoners or mistreating them is against our *laws*. Which
is one reason why a number of folks are more that a bit upswet about
the fact that at the current time we are *violating* our own laws when
it comes to the people taken prisoner in Afghanistan and held at
Guantanamo Bay. They haven't been accorded prisoner of war status, nor
have they been classified as criminals awaiting trial.

We are damaging our own legal system *badly* by doing this. And that
and other similar things we are doing are actually more apt to destroy
the US than the actions of the terrorists!

If we can't follow our own laws except when it is convenient, we are
all at the mercy of anybody in a position of authorty.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 17:33:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 16:33:12 2002
Subject: [TML] army usage
Message-ID: <a6.2a3d2ddd.2a81b626@aol.com>

 >>I would agree.  But as you will observe in Afghanistan (and arguably 
Serbia) 
 >>they did it by putting someone else's young men into the mud -- and not 
all 
 >>that many of those.  I seem to remember something along those lines in 
 >>Gibbons ....
 >
 >That army was just laying there...

I was thinking of Rome's extensive use of auxiliaries and allies towards the 
end.
 
 >Seriously, from our point of view, Afghanistan was as close to a perfect
 >situation as you can get.  All we had to do was provide air & logisitcal
 >support, and the population in the are being attacked wasn't too thrilled
 >with the current government.  They all aren't going to be that way.

(Actually, it wasn't the population that opposed the Taliban.  it was the 
Northern Alliance.  The only reason the NA isn't pillaging the citizens like 
they were doing before the Taliban kicked them out is because they're 
preoccupied spending all that money that we bribed them with.  Sort of a 
Marshall Plan for bandit chiefs.  Seems to have worked so far.)

Well, one wouldn't think so, but as I understand it the plans for attacking 
Iraq involve a repeat of Afghanisan, using "rebels" in the north and south to 
do the actual fighting while we provide airstrikes.  Again:  "Army?  What 
Army?"  To my knowledge the army made not one twitch towards deployment 
during the Afghan battle -- either the authorities were supremely confident 
that they didn't need the army, or they had misgivings about deploying it in 
its present condition.  One wouldn't think Iraq would roll up so handily, but 
no-one thought the Taliban would roll up so fast either.  Apparently we're 
going to find out.

On the other hand, if the latest briefs are any indication and we launch any 
military action against the house of Saud, then I think we're going to have 
to occupy everything from Libya to Jakarta.  That _will_ require an army, and 
I'm not sure we have one.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 17:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (markc@peak.org)
Date: Tue Aug  6 16:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <244640-2200282623322384@M2W096.mail2web.com>

Jesse DeGraff <Jesse=2EDeGraff@netapp=2Ecom> writes:

> Gee, ALL the clowns are coming out of the woodwork ;
> BTW, is the December shoot going to happen?

Umm=2E=2E=2E December=2E  Why do you ask? :^)


(Seriously, it's on Saturday, Dec=2E 7th=2E)

    - Mark C=2E


--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 17:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Tue Aug  6 16:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <003401c23d98$a70d8680$da29f7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOECFILAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Fred Ramen
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 3:29 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Arbellatra


From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>

>>"Nothing succeeds like success" they say.  I've always sensed that along
with being politically brilliant, she was possibly the greatest strategic
and tactical mind the Imperium ever saw.  She was only 28 when the war
broke out, according to canon.  I'd prefer to push her date of birth back
to 567, making her 48 at the beginning of the war.  This at least gives her
the age to have had a fairly long career and been at least an experienced
Captain or junior Admiral.  This would, IMHO, make her seizure of the
fleets far more acceptable.  No one is going to listen to a pup of a Ltd.
Commander.<<

I'm probably in a tiny minority here, but I remain unconvinced about
Arbellatra's strategic brilliance. Certainly her conduct of the 2FW does not
seem to have a personal stamp upon it the way Norris' saving strategy in the
5FW does. Canonical info on the war is spotty, of course, but it is
described as a "holding action" accompanied by commerce raids. When the
dreadnoughts are finally constructed, Arbellatra does not lead them on a
reconquest of the Marches, but merely forces a stalemate...and then promptly
concedes territory to the Zhodani, as well as separating several other
worlds from the Imperium. Compare Norris, who does in fact lead a reconquest
that restores the status quo antebellum, as well as changing the strategic
makeup of the states in the Marches in the Imperium's favor.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Ahe doesn't need to be a genius she has thirdly things going for her when
she
marches on the Captal.  First, Her force have been defending the Imperium
against
outsiders and she is out to save the rest of the imperium.  Secondlym, she
has
the core of Plankwell's flee, ;png in the tooth perhaps but still a bunch
with a
tradition of winning.  The ones she beats have been mixing it up in the Core
cector for a long time, repair and maintainance facilities have been gought
over
conquered and reconquered, not entirely bloodlessly for decdes now.  Her
fleet
battleworn though it may be, it is still in better shape then its
competition.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>I think the title of Grand Admiral was given to her for no better reason
than she knew how to fight.  Look at all the generals that Lincoln broke
before finding Grant. She demonstrated the ability to win.  Before that,
the post maybe had been more political, but consider the event of the 1FW,
I somehow doubt it.  The Marches had just been cursed with a string of bad
leaders.<<

Yes, but in the canonical timeline she is simply too young, and Cleon V is
around for too short a time for this to work. (He rules for three years, the
first of which is the first year of the 2FW; this would imply that
Arbellatra could not have been appointed by him prior to 616 or so, unless
she was already known to him for some reason.)

I myself like the idea that the Alikhalikoi family were prominent supporters
of Cleon's faction, or perhaps loyalists who resisted Olav. They may have
been pretenders to a duchy in the Marches, or had had their title revoked.
What may have happened is that an older member of the Alikhalikoi family was
actually appointed by Cleon, but due to death or other happenstance was
unable to actually serve. Arbellatra was then chosen because she was the
least controversial candidate--her family had the commission, she was the
heir, and her youth would allow her to be manipulated by the other nobles.
Her brilliance was that she ended up dominating them. (To bring in Doug's
Hitler analogy, compare the way the right wing thought they would dominate
Hitler in 1933. Or how Lincoln routinely outmanuevered his cabinet members
political ambition.)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Or a combination, she lucked out early, and won some critical battles.
Like Hitler, she is a good tactician, not a strategist.  She was however a
good pokitical leader and even if Arabella the war leader varely won
Arabella the protector was superb in saving the Imperium.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>Wit my revised birth year, she is now 48 when the 2FW breaks out, 53 when
it ends.  She had to leave before the end of the war, since she defeats
Gustus in 622.  Have her, and a small fleet leave in late 618, leaving the
war to a trusted group of under commanders.  The history is murky here.
Perhaps the Zhodani were broken by mid-618, and the last ~18 months were
mopping up and retaking worlds?

She arrives in the Core no later than early 621, when a large armada. Along
the way, she defeats several pretenders, and forces a battle with Gustus at
the Second Battle of Zhimaway.  Proceeding to Capital, she declares herself
regent in late 622, at the age of 55.  Becomes Empress in 629 at 62, Dies
in 666 at 99.  Marries late, first son born in 624.<<

I have no problem with this as an alternate timeline. I guess my point is
merely that this kind of surgery is necessary to produce Arbellatra the
Conqueror. Canon allows for a different picture to be read between the
lines, IMHO. To bring back Augustus, Arbellatra may have succeeded in
keeping the throne because, like Octavian, she was just enough of a general
to have won the war but obviously not some one who could only rule by virtue
of the sword. That is, as an UNprofessional Admiral, she would have the
support of a populace thoroughly sick of what the professional soldiers had
been doing for twenty years.

All IMHO, YMMV, IANAGD, etc.

Fred Ramen

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Likewise

jml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 17:46:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Tue Aug  6 16:46:04 2002
Subject: [TML] army usage
In-Reply-To: <a6.2a3d2ddd.2a81b626@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0208070140370.363897-100000@svati>

On Tue, 6 Aug 2002 Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> >Seriously, from our point of view, Afghanistan was as close to a perfect
> >situation as you can get.  All we had to do was provide air & logisitcal
> >support, and the population in the are being attacked wasn't too thrilled
> >with the current government.  They all aren't going to be that way.
>
>(Actually, it wasn't the population that opposed the Taliban.  it was the
>Northern Alliance.  The only reason the NA isn't pillaging the citizens like
>they were doing before the Taliban kicked them out is because they're
>preoccupied spending all that money that we bribed them with.  Sort of a
>Marshall Plan for bandit chiefs.  Seems to have worked so far.)

I really think you should do some research on the situation in Afganisthan
and how everything went down before blurting things out. The main population
of Afganisthan was opposed to the Taliban, which is mainly from a tribe to
the south west (I think). The Taliban was however heavily enforcing their rule
and the Northern Alliance was the only once with enough manpower and equipment
to fight back.

Also don't think there was any bribing necessary. The Northern Alliance was
losing and losing bad, until the Americans interfeered and provided supported
the NA with heavy bombing.

Tommy Grav
-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 17:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Aug  6 16:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <200208062357.MFJ01994@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Jeff D. Greenly" says
<snip naval change of command>

Don't forget - the outgoing commander has to do an inventory 
with the new commander, and the new commander gets to sign 
for the ship and all of the equipment in it.
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 18:01:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Aug  6 17:01:05 2002
Subject: [TML] OT:  December ARPC shoot
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15F3@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Good to hear!  I'm desperately going to try to make it up again finally, as the financial situation has improved a little.  Providing of course that I can get a new roomate and don't have to keep paying twice the rent like I am now :(  Also, I'm going to invite Erin again, and maybe I can get my "girlfriend" to go too ;)

Jesse


-----Original Message-----
From: markc@peak.org [mailto:markc@peak.org]
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 4:32 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .


Jesse DeGraff <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> writes:

> Gee, ALL the clowns are coming out of the woodwork ;
> BTW, is the December shoot going to happen?

Umm... December.  Why do you ask? :^)


(Seriously, it's on Saturday, Dec. 7th.)

    - Mark C.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 18:01:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Aug  6 17:01:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
Message-ID: <200208070000.MFJ02183@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

alan spik says
<snip the enlisted view of the change of command>

the sergeant major kept me and a couple of other guys in the 
rear of the formation.  we were supposed to watch out for 
people about to fall out, and as discreetly as possible, move 
forward and get them out of formation.

hot sun, standing in one place for a long time, etc...
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 18:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 17:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The cloak
Message-ID: <OFE82EC4F7.A922AAEF-ONCA256C0E.0000643B@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

And Brian gave us a wonderfully-UNwanted mental image:
>I once ran through the Maxcy dorm parking lot at USC wearing only 
sneakers
>and a Spuds McKenzie beach towel around my neck (yelling "SCIENCE!" at 
the
>top of my lungs for reasons that now escape me)...does that count as 
wearing
>a cloak? 

Only if it was a Cloak of Invisibility.

The _cloak_ being invisible, I mean.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 18:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Tue Aug  6 17:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
References: <20020806203610.24254.48308.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D506687.7BD7A795@earthlink.net>

Mark C. posted:
> 
> Jesse DeGraff <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> writes:
> 
> > What about artists?  ;)
> 
> Sure, why not?  Do you know any? >^)
> 
>     - Mark C.

Oh, gawd, puh-LEEZE let him on it. Maybe SJG will one
day market his graphics on T-shirts (HINT, HINT!).

Do you know how difficult it is for me to NOT
print T-shirts of his stuff for personal use?

David Smart

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 18:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Aug  6 17:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: army usage
Message-ID: <20020807002817.99096.qmail@web20417.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>

>I really think you should do some research on the situation in 
>Afganisthan and how everything went down before blurting things out.
>The main population of Afganisthan was opposed to the Taliban, which
>is mainly from a tribe to the south west (I think). 

Tommy, you should do some research, too.  The Taliban was composed
primarily of Pakistani and Saudi volunteers who called themselves
"students" (of Islam).  Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, with the knowledge
if not the support of the United States government, formed and
trained the Taliban and sent them to end the civil war in
Afghanistan, which they did.  The peace they imposed was in many ways
worse than the war.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 18:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 17:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
Message-ID: <OF0802E7D8.0474AB00-ONCA256C0D.008279D4@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Martin posted a correction:
>>>The Impeirum is TL 14 mostly, with Tl 15 just creeping in over the last
>>>few years.
>>
>> OK, this one's got me puzzled, I'll give a serious reply now.
>
>Ooops. Sorry "best tech in the Imperium is mostly TL 14, with 15
>creeping in". Average is lower..

Thank goodness! (I was sort-of worried this would mean a future major 
correction to the T20 rule-book. ;-)  ;-)

It also makes my other, later posts on the topic moot.

("Moot" as in "in complete agreement with". So now I can remain mute. ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------





tml-request@travellercentral.com
Sent by: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
07/08/2002 02:18
Please respond to tml

 
        To:     tml@travellercentral.com
        cc: 
        Subject:        TML digest, Vol 2002 #890 - 23 msgs
Is this part of a business decision process?: 


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Today's Topics:

   1. Woo Hoo Yepieee the IW are coming to town (Andrew & Dii 
Moffatt-Vallance)
   2. Silly Question (Cheng Tseng)
   3. Re: Gas Giant Mass (David Shayne)
   4. Re: Re: Mines (Timothy Little)
   5. RE: Silly Question (Mosaic Tapestry)
   6. Re: The big fleet debate (Timothy Little)
   7. GURPS MISSILE WARFARE (was The big fleet debate) (hal@buffnet.net)
   8. Re: T20 background question (MJ Dougherty)
   9. Re: Jump governor (MJ Dougherty)
  10. Re: Imperial Taxes (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
  11. Re: The big fleet debate (Timothy Little)
  12. Re: Re: Quote (correction) (Leonard Erickson)
  13. Re: mines (Timothy Little)
  14. Re: The big fleet debate (Timothy Little)
  15. Re: The big fleet debate (Timothy Little)
  16. Ad campaign...... (Michael Cessna)
  17. Re: Re: Mines (Rupert Boleyn)
  18. Re: RE: Dehumanization (John T. Kwon)
  19. GURPS Interstellar Wars (knightsky@juno.com)
  20. RE: GURPS Interstellar Wars (Mike West)
  21. Re: The cloak (Hurrel, Brian)
  22. Re: Gas Giant Mass (Anthony Jackson)
  23. Re: RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries" (Anthony Jackson)

--__--__--

Message: 1
From: "Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 18:05:31 +1200
Subject: [TML] Woo Hoo Yepieee the IW are coming to town
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Copied from JTAS

From:       Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Date:       23:01:47, Aug 05, 2002
Message-ID: 15305
Group:      General Discussion

Interstellar Wars: A New Direction For Traveller Steve Jackson Games is 
pleased to announce that its license to produce a GURPS version of the 
classic science-fiction roleplaying game Traveller has been extended for 
another three years. By agreement with Far Future Enterprises, the 
GURPS Traveller line, as well as the online Journal of the Travellers' Aid 

Society, will continue at least through the end of 2005.

The new license also gives SJ Games the right to open up a new period in 
the distant past of the classic Third Imperium setting. Long before the 
foundation of the Imperium, the Humans of Terra reached the stars for the 
first time, only to find that they were already owned by someone else. 
Centuries of conflict followed, in which the outnumbered Terrans fought 
for 
their very survival against a vast but decadent alien empire. Now GURPS 
Traveller will examine this crucial time. The first release in the new 
line, 
GURPS Traveller: The Interstellar Wars, is tentatively scheduled for a 
Summer 2003 release.

"The Interstellar Wars have always been of great interest to Traveller 
fans," 
said GURPS Traveller Line Editor Jon F. Zeigler. "It's very exciting to 
have 
the opportunity to develop this period into a setting for epic adventure." 

Marc Miller, creator of Traveller, agreed. "I'm excited about opening a 
new 
milieu. There's room for a lot of new things here." Senior Line Editor 
Loren 
Wiseman, long-time Traveller author and editor, remains at the helm of the 

GURPS Traveller product line. He is assisted by Zeigler, and by Graeme 
Davis, editor of the Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society (JTAS).


--__--__--

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 02:13:40 -0400
To: tml@travellercentral.com
From: cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng)
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Hi,

This probably displays the depths of my ignorance, but can anybody give me 
a
description of how a unit's change of command ceremony goes?  I am looking
specifically for the US Navy's protocol, but any nation or service is 
welcomed.

Thanks,

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - 
they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

 My Sale List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
 My Want List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


--__--__--

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 02:27:29 -0500
From: David Shayne <daveshayne@ameritech.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

> Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 09:42:43 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> David Shayne <daveshayne@ameritech.net> writes:
> >
> >> Any clues?
> >
> >I couldn't find that info in any TNE source. There are charts for that
> >in "World Builder's Handbook" for MT. Assuming for the moment that you
> >don't have access to that very worthwhile publication I can give you
> >some typical figures from that source.
> >
> >Smallest SGG radius = 20
> >Average SGG radius ~= 60
> >Highest SGG radius = 100
> >
> >Smallest LGG radius = 110
> >Average LGG radius ~= 175
> >Highest LGG radius = 240
> 
> Applying a realism check here, Jupiter, at size 88, is about the limit
> for any sort of gas giant (assuming TNE size is in thousands of miles,
> like CT size).

Yes it is. And yes from a perfect realism standpoint this is wrong.
However probably not hugely broken since the main thing we need to
determine here is the mass and this gives a reasonable number for mass
while still being usable with the same formula as for small rocky worlds
. (like earth) Besides I tend to the view that wherever reality and the
rules are in conflict it's almost always reality that has it wrong.
(With a special thanks to the late Doug Adams.)

> >
> >Lowest GG density = .1
> >Average GG density ~= .21
> >Highest GG density = .3
> 
> Assuming that's g/cc, that's horribly wrong. 

Standard densities. With Earth = 1. Doesn't look so horibly wrong now
does it? 

David Shayne

--__--__--

Message: 4
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 17:43:14 +1000
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Mines
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> No, I forgot to mention that this model can run the sensor and brain 
> for 7 days.

Phew, that's quite a bit better.  You're right about the huge drain
for PEMS though.  Aren't they meant to be *passive* sensors?


> Perhaps a CAPTOR style sensor platform with a number of small missiles 
> on board would be a workable comprimise, though it'd start getting 
> expensive real quick, and it wouldn't be long before most design 
> committees turned it into a small battle-station by adding point 
> defence, etc. I'm sure.

I strongly suspect so, yes.  Trouble is, they'd probably be right :(
Maybe small mines aren't viable in FF&S?


- Tim

--__--__--

Message: 5
From: "Mosaic Tapestry" <n2sami@attbi.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] Silly Question
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 01:06:56 -0700
Organization: often equals Disorgainization
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

I'm not sure which details are important to you but the essential bit of
a US Army change of command is the transfer of the colors. The outgoing
commander hands the colors to his commanding officer who immediately
hands them to the incoming commander.

A web page of events surrounding such with photo of the act:
http://www.militarymarksmanship.org/hoidahlcoc.htm

A web page of events surrounding such with parade and all:
http://www.afsouth.nato.int/images/change.htm



--__--__--

Message: 6
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 18:22:06 +1000
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] The big fleet debate
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Hal wrote:
> List all of the modifiers to gunner's skill you are using in a 
> missile/antimissile engagement.

Pretty similar to yours.  In more detail:

> Skill 12 laser gunner

A reasonable median.  I've been assuming about 9 for civilians who
have weapons but test-fire them more than they use them, up to about
15 for well-trained and experienced military personnel.

> Gunnery +6 to hit program

I generally use a Complexity 8 targeting program for +9 to hit (not
cumulative with Gunnery program).  Civilian ships will have less,
possibly +4.

> ROF bonus +10

I get only +7 RoF bonus per laser, or +8 (maybe +9) for a standard
"triple laser" turret.  Are you grouping them into larger batteries?

> Total modifiers:
> 12+ 32 + 6 + 10 + 10 + 2 - 39 = 72-39 = 32

Pretty close; I get between 24-37 depending upon circumstances; 32 is
fine.


> Rolling an average of 10 on 3d6 means that you will have succeeded by 
> 22.  Number of missiles successfully engaged in that round will be equal 
to 
> round((22-3)/2,0) or 19/2 rounded up or 10.

It's rather odd to see a turret that fires only 1 shot per 20 seconds
take out 10 missiles in the 15-30 seconds it takes the missiles to
cross the last half-hex, but them's the rules :(

Yes, that's close to the figures I get.


>  Please note that second edition rules for TRAVELLER have bumped up
> the ROF bonus from their current levels to current levels +3.

That's OK, I've got the second edition rules.  Just bought them a
couple of months ago.


> If more than 10 are inbound, he stops 10 and the rest hit.

That's the problem.  Dton-for-dton, there will always be more than 10
incoming missiles per defending turret using any sane launcher and
guidance design.  A million points of impact damage per turret
*really* hurts.


- Tim

--__--__--

Message: 7
From: hal@buffnet.net
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 04:40:04 -0400 (EDT)
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: [TML] GURPS MISSILE WARFARE (was The big fleet debate)
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

>> Gunnery +6 to hit program
>
> I generally use a Complexity 8 targeting program for +9 to hit (not
> cumulative with Gunnery program).  Civilian ships will have less,
> possibly +4.

The CDI (C Defense Industries) had a showcase of a lot of different types
of low power lasers.  The trade off was that they increased the rate of
fire to get an increase in ROF bonus.  One interesting development was to
build a specialized targeting computer.  Using GURPS rules, it was a
specilized computer getting a +1 complexity bonus for use with a targeting
computer.


>> ROF bonus +10
>
> I get only +7 RoF bonus per laser, or +8 (maybe +9) for a standard
> "triple laser" turret.  Are you grouping them into larger batteries?

The point defense lasers I built could easily attain that ROF bonus. 
Since lasers in a single turret cannot target different targets, most
Point defense scenarios I had were such that you had a triple turret
firing three lasers at its target.  I will see if I can dig up my archived
copy of the point defense lasers.  But +10 is not hard to achieve :)


>> Total modifiers:
>> 12+ 32 + 6 + 10 + 10 + 2 - 39 = 72-39 = 32
>
> Pretty close; I get between 24-37 depending upon circumstances; 32 is
> fine.
>
>
>> Rolling an average of 10 on 3d6 means that you will have succeeded by
>> 22.  Number of missiles successfully engaged in that round will be
>> equal to  round((22-3)/2,0) or 19/2 rounded up or 10.
>
> It's rather odd to see a turret that fires only 1 shot per 20 seconds
> take out 10 missiles in the 15-30 seconds it takes the missiles to
> cross the last half-hex, but them's the rules :(

Minor thoughts: part of that +10 bonus for Point defense comes of the fact
that the missiles attempting to hit you have to come in from a specific
"region".  This region is a relatively small cone that gets smaller the
closer those missiles come to you.  But you are correct.  There should be
a MAX number of targets that can be engaged by a single laser group per
turn equal to the max number of shots a single laser in the grouping and
put out in a turn.


>> If more than 10 are inbound, he stops 10 and the rest hit.
>
> That's the problem.  Dton-for-dton, there will always be more than 10
> incoming missiles per defending turret using any sane launcher and
> guidance design.  A million points of impact damage per turret
> *really* hurts.

Using the concept that the current weapon systems are designed to operate
against the current enemy weapon technology - try using the GURPS
TRAVELLER missile designs first.  Then do an analysis of weapons in the
TRAVELLER universe.  If you can see where there is an improved methodology
for weapons, post it and we can argue the merits and/or improve any
oversights.  I am still flabberghasted that no one ever noticed that the
FAST drug makes a FAR better alternative for cheap travel than does a
freeze tube!

  But that is another story ;)



--__--__--

Message: 8
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] T20 background question
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 10:29:39 +0100
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

>
> Martin replied:
> >>What is the TL of  the Imperium & the Terran Confederation in the
> >>Year 1000 setting of T20?
> >
> >The Impeirum is TL 14 mostly, with Tl 15 just creeping in over the last
> few
> >years.
>
> OK, this one's got me puzzled, I'll give a serious reply now.


Ooops. Sorry "best tech in the Imperium is mostly TL 14, with 15 creeping
in". Average is lower..


--__--__--

Message: 9
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Jump governor
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 10:30:44 +0100
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com


> I don't see these in High Guard - IMTU, they don't exist.  If
> a Jump-4 ship jumps 2 parsecs, they only use 2 parsecs worth
> of fuel.
>
> What was the last canon word on this subject, if any?

Marc's last statement (and confirmed to me in a question I asked a while
ago) was that if you have J-3 fuel and you J-1, you only use J1 of fuel 
up.


--__--__--

Message: 10
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 12:06:33 +0200 (MEST)
From: Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Taxes
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Anthony Jackson writes:
>In Striker, the implication is that the imperial military tax is simply 
1/3
>of the planet's total military expenditure (with another 1/3 going to the
>subsector fleet, so the world only keeps 1/3 for personal forces).

Incorrect. It's 30% of total military expenditure that goes to the
Imperium with 70% retained for local use. The 30% is divided between
regular and subsector forces. I used to be convinced that somewhere I had
seen a canonical statement to the effect that these Imperial military
taxes were split 50/50 between regular and subsector forces (so 15% to
each), but I've been trying to track down the reference for a while with
no luck, so I'm beginning to doubt. Maybe I made it up myself (anyone who
can come up with the reference will earn my undying gratitude ;-).



Hans


--__--__--

Message: 11
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 20:19:01 +1000
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] The big fleet debate
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Ok, that's reasonable.  Now, let's look at a point defense system:

> 9 x rE cell, good for 50 shots: 0.09T, $90k

I get $180k, but that doesn't matter much.

> Dedicated Macroframe: 0.25T, $50k, complexity 11

I get $100k and Complexity 10 at TL12.  It's not hardened, but that's
not likely to be a problem except in really unusual situations.


> Targeting +12: $512k (but probably gets a bulk discoute)

I get $256k, and I agree about the bulk discount ;) However, I can
only seem to fit a $128k +11 program in the macroframe.


> with the Vehicles system beam weapons in space have no Acc cap,

However, in the Vehicles rules maximum accuracy bonus is limited to
Gunnery skill, in this case 25.  There's no point in aiming more than
one second.  That gives you a base of 50 (51 since you can miss by one
and still hit).


> The missile is being fired at one second before impact

You'd better make that at least two seconds else the now unguided
missile will still hit your ship.  You need to do a *lot* more damage
to annihilate it.  (In fact, if there are a lot of missiles, you might
find it very hard to dodge all the "dead" ones...)

That doesn't change the basic to-hit number by much, it's 15- instead
of 16-.  Continuing the progression out to the 1/2D limit, I also get
an average of about 8 missiles killed.

It's a good thing I didn't put thermal superconductors in their
armour ;)


> Hm...that's actually worse than I realized.  Oh well, if they send a
> really big swarm of missiles at you simply dump a canister round in
> front of them.

How *big* a canister round?

You need to disable the missiles about 600 miles out, and they will
probably be approaching from a region 200 miles across at that
distance.  Your canister must disperse about ten trillion objects of
sufficient size to reliably disable a missile, just to cut the numbers
in half.

A 20 MJ x-ray pulse is barely enough to penetrate the DR, so I'll use
that to derive an estimate of particle size required.  At 500 km/s,
that works out to a mass of about 0.16 grams, which I will round down
to 0.1 grams to give some benefit of the doubt to the defending side.

Each canister must thus have a mass of about a million tonnes.  You
would actually need a few times that to account for dispersion.


Your countermissile idea was better.  I've designed and played it
using Vehicles rules, and it is a highly reliable system for
intercepting missiles.

It would probably fail horribly when faced with a "silent launch" from
an untracked ship though.  In my Vehicles test of this scenario, most
of the missiles weren't detected until about 10 seconds before impact.
Even with an immediate launch at 30 gees, they couldn't intercept the
missiles at a safe distance.  In such a case, lasers are about the
only option -- and even then, not a good one.


- Tim

--__--__--

Message: 12
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 01:45:33 PST
Organization: Shadownet
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

In mail you write:

>> >That's John Milius.
>> 
>> So it is . . . he still should have directed Starship Troopers.
>> 
>> LKW
>
> Anyone _OTHER_ than Verhoeven should have directed Starship Troopers.

Yeah, but if he directed Red Dawn, he *definitely* makes the short list.


-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


--__--__--

Message: 13
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 20:37:58 +1000
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] mines
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Terry Carlino wrote:
[2D maps vs 3D maps]
> What has that to do with anything. A det-laser mine that can fire
> across a 10,000 mile hex, can fire across a 10,000 sphere.

The difference is in how many you need.  A typical interplanetary
"traffic lane" would be a few million miles wide (say 5 million).  On
a 2-D map, you only need 500 mines which is expensive but probably
doable.  On a 3D map you need 250,000 -- that's almost certain to
break your budget given how much they cost each.

Note that I'm not saying mines are ineffective in general, I was
commenting in the thread that started with an attacker trying to use
them to destroy interplanetary commerce.  I don't think that will work
well enough to be worthwhile.


> After doing some searching on my hard drive I find that actual range
> is more like 9 hexes, so in a three dimensional game that would be a
> sphere 180,000 miles across.

9 hexes range is a lot better.  You only need about 800 to cover that
traffic lane. 


> I think the best system we came up with was one where the mines were
> controlled by either a controlling sensor platform or a ship. This
> makes the mines smaller and cheaper. The sensors "paint" the target
> for the passive sensors on the mines to pick up.

Yes, that rings a bell.  Again, more effective in 2D than 3D, but
useful for covering the space near a planet or other "small" area.


> Part of the point would be to force ships attempting to traverse the
> area to slow down, use sensors and weapons to clear the mine
> field. This alone would make them detectable to opposing craft.

I've not found detection of enemy craft to be much of a problem in my
test-bed runs.  Usually the side with mines controls the system, sees
the jump flash of any intruder, and can track everything they
subsequently do.

Maybe I'm just lacking battle experience against other people.  Is
avoiding detection by the defender a possibility in most people's
scenarios?


- Tim

--__--__--

Message: 14
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 20:42:57 +1000
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] The big fleet debate
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

David P. Summers wrote:
> What is the view toward using nukes for point defense?

My first thought would be "Is it worthwhile?"

Politically, I suspect it lies in a murky area.  In practice, I
suspect that the advantages of using nuclear weapons for defense
aren't sufficient to be worth the chance that the other side might
take it as a sign that it's OK for them to use nukes in offense.

I can see very clear advantages to using nukes offensively...


- Tim

--__--__--

Message: 15
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 20:44:12 +1000
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] The big fleet debate
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Terry Carlino wrote:
> The only reason I can think of is to allow you to self destruct the
> missile if necessary.

Yes, I guess that makes sense.  Thanks :)


- Tim

--__--__--

Message: 16
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 04:14:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Cessna <graymask1120@yahoo.com>
To: TML <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: [TML] Ad campaign......
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Just a thought for an InstellArms catalog:

http://www.missilesandfirecontrol.com/our_products/antiarmor.html

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

--__--__--

Message: 17
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Organization: Babel and Chaos
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 00:03:47 +1200
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Mines
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

On 6 Aug 2002 at 17:43, Timothy Little wrote:

> Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > No, I forgot to mention that this model can run the sensor and brain 
> > for 7 days.
> 
> Phew, that's quite a bit better.  You're right about the huge drain
> for PEMS though.  Aren't they meant to be *passive* sensors?

Yeah. I think they must use valves in their signal processor, or 
something. :)

> > Perhaps a CAPTOR style sensor platform with a number of small missiles 

> > on board would be a workable comprimise, though it'd start getting 
> > expensive real quick, and it wouldn't be long before most design 
> > committees turned it into a small battle-station by adding point 
> > defence, etc. I'm sure.
> 
> I strongly suspect so, yes.  Trouble is, they'd probably be right :(
> Maybe small mines aren't viable in FF&S?

It depends what for. That first design I posted was only 1 m^3 in 
volume, and would be quite hard to avoid, I think. the 3 G-turns of 
fuel it had is enough to guarantee that it can get into firing position 
of anything that comes within 60,000km or so (a turn in TNE is 30 
minutes, and a hex 30,000km).

By ditching the rocket the volume can be brought down to 0.6 m^3 and 
the cost to MCr1.423 at TL15, but then the mine can only attack craft 
that come into its hex - within 10-15,000km or so. I tried taking off 
the Electromagnetic Masking (EMM), but that didn't save any significant 
space, money or power.

Actually playing around I see that if a fusion reactor of minimum size 
is put in (assuming TL15 that's 0.1 m^3 and 0.6MW) you can still have 
the basic 1 m^3 mine, and about 4 months fuel, with no noticeable 
increase in cost. In fact the limit to performance suddenly bocomes 
surface area on which to mount the PEMS.

Thus:

TL Guidance Vol Mass AV MCr   G-Turns Warhead Hits Damage  Range
15 Full-Ind 1   1.26 3  1.547 3/3     50kt    1D6  1/14-43 0

Comm Sensor Signatures     Asset
10L  1P     +4/+3/+4/+3/+1 4/8

with a duration for the sensor and brain of 4 months.

Or, for a bigger job:

TL Guidance Vol Mass AV MCr   G-Turns Warhead Hits Damage  Range
15 Full-Ind 7   8.48 3  7.434 3/3     500kt   1D6  1/25-79 0

Comm Sensor Signatures     Asset
10L  5P     +4/+3/+4/+3/+1 6/16

This thing has a short range of 150,000km for its PEMS and a maximum of 
1,200,000km and a year's fuel for the fusion plant that powers its 
sensor and brain (the same plant as the little 'um uses, BTW). It has a 
fairly weak motor because it's still got a crappy little EAPlaC solid 
fuel rocket instead of a nice HEPlaR or thruster system. This way it's 
not sensitive to issues version or canon the same way (FWIW).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


--__--__--

Message: 18
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 08:08:27 -0400
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

>I am of the view that we are not going very far as a species 
>until we manage to get our act together on Earth and solve 
>the seemingly insurmountable problems - of our own doing - 
>facing us. Even interplanetary travel on any significant 
>scale is just not going to happen unless we instigate a 
>paradigm shift in the way we behave towards each other and
>towards life in general. Is it unreasonable to assume that 
>any sentient species that gains control of its environment 
>has to learn to curb exponential growth and a corresponding 
>exponential increase in the demand for resources? Only once 
>this hurdle is overcome will the ability to harness the 
>resources of a single solar system and the ability to travel 
>to other solar systems be developed.

This is the Sagan hypothesis - that sufficiently advanced 
alien life forms will have learned to be "peaceful".  There 
is no reason that this has to be so.  If a warlike species 
came to be dominated by a single high tech faction, through 
limited nuclear war and genocidal action, and used this high 
technology to permanently dominate and subjugate its 
population, it would survive its birth into a nuclear age and 
birth into a starfaring age.

Sufficiently advanced technology makes life on an airless 
rockball possible - why would such a species need to preserve 
its wildlife? 

It is simply not logical to conclude that we must get our act 
together in some peaceful manner.  All that is required is 
that we get our act together - and this could be done today 
by the United States, largely through the use of force.  We 
could solve many problems at once - the population problem, 
the poverty of the third world, the source of most terrorists 
around the world, religions that are inimical to US goals, up 
and coming governments that will consume resources to no good 
end - imagine the tyranny of technological might that could 
annihilate several billion people in a few weeks, and spend 
the world's resources on going to the stars.

A peaceful Sagan-like world that ran across a violent world 
where both were capable of building antimatter rockets would 
be annihilated by the violent world in the time it took for 
the rockets to cross the distance.  The peaceful would die 
with startled looks on their faces as the radars showed the 
near-C projectiles coming in.

Scary, isn't it?  But I think that across the stars, this is 
the far more likely scenario.  Sagan was a dreamer, a wishful 
thinker whose idea of transgression was cheating on his wife.

When I see pictures of children overseas holding AK-47s, I 
see a future where alien races are holding antimatter rockets 
and near-C rocks.  Same picture.  It's not a good idea to 
shout, "Here I am!" in a jungle like that.
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

--__--__--

Message: 19
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 08:19:15 -0400
From: knightsky@juno.com
Subject: [TML] GURPS Interstellar Wars
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Many of you have probably already run across this, but for those who
haven't, check out Evil Stevie's Daily Illuminator
(http://www.sjgames.com/ill/) for the 8/6/02 entry.


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"




________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

--__--__--

Message: 20
From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] GURPS Interstellar Wars
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 08:43:47 -0500
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

> Many of you have probably already run across this, but for those who
> haven't, check out Evil Stevie's Daily Illuminator
> (http://www.sjgames.com/ill/) for the 8/6/02 entry.

I hadn't see it yet, but it does sound interesting.  The only thing
I hope is that this doesn't mean they are abandoning their alternate
history.

They have just gotten to the cusp of 1120 and actually having history
move forward.  It will be quite disappointing if instead history just
stops at 1120 as they abandon it for the Interstellar Wars.

Mike West

--__--__--

Message: 21
From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>
To: "'tml@travellercentral.com'" <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] The cloak
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 10:40:25 -0400 
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

I once ran through the Maxcy dorm parking lot at USC wearing only sneakers
and a Spuds McKenzie beach towel around my neck (yelling "SCIENCE!" at the
top of my lungs for reasons that now escape me)...does that count as 
wearing
a cloak? 

--__--__--

Message: 22
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 09:10:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

David Shayne writes:

> Standard densities. With Earth = 1. Doesn't look so horibly wrong now
> does it? 

Ok, that's not as bad. 

--__--__--

Message: 23
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 09:17:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

David P. Summers writes:

> You are assuming close packed spheres.

Actually, I'm assuming a flat 'shell' of fighters.  Volume covered is 
actually
third order in range.
> ground per sensor by moveing around).  Also, If you take sensor input 
> from multiple sensors and combine them, it is possible to generate 
> detection of things that couldn't be detected within the range of 
> anyone sensor.

GURPS doesn't really cover array sensors (if you're going to apply that 
bit of
realism, there's a lot of other realism tweaks you can make as well), but
interferometry really isn't going to help much with deep space detection, 
as
(a) it mostly improves resolution, not sensitivity, and (b) it massively
reduces coverage, meaning you're likely to miss objects entirely due to 
looking
in the wrong direction.
 
>  Lastly, the advantage that a fighter gives only its 
> own position, and not that of the capital ship, if it is caught first 
> is non-trivial

If stealth were particularly meaningful or interesting in space, sure.  In
practice, having multiple small ships just guarantees you'll be spotted, 
due to
other quirks in the sensor rules.


--__--__--

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 18:46:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Tue Aug  6 17:46:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
References: <200208070000.MFJ02183@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D506907.B582A8E7@mindspring.com>

"John T. Kwon" wrote:
> 
> alan spik says
> <snip the enlisted view of the change of command>
> 
> the sergeant major kept me and a couple of other guys in the
> rear of the formation.  we were supposed to watch out for
> people about to fall out, and as discreetly as possible, move
> forward and get them out of formation.
> 
> hot sun, standing in one place for a long time, etc...
> ________________
> FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

I don't think the Navy was that organized. Read with amusement Doug's
post about marching. At every CoC I attended, we were given a time to be
there. We were expected to, and did meander our way over and meet the
Chief who would tell us where to stand. Usually a big gaggle(Pod?), then
the Master Chief would come out and make everyone straiten up in ranks,
and the show would get started about thirty minutes later. I remember
several people falling out.

-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
If you can't convince them, confuse them.
                -Harry S. Truman

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 19:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 18:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
Message-ID: <OFEF204F0E.98F09E48-ONCA256C0E.00054E5A@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Steven wrote:
>(Incidentally, I remember there being a single 1-point TL 16 unit in
>=46FW, which I always assumed to be the player characters!)

ROFL! Better chalk up a keyboard kill for that one!

I can just picture the group in my mind - a bunch of unruly, slavering 
warmongers, weighed down with all those nasty weapons and ammo that they 
couldn't possibly carry in Real Life, propbably tooling down the street in 
a Lancer, and who are they?

PCs!!

"Fear Them!!"

(...and players reckon they can't change the course of major events! ;-))
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 19:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 18:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <6c.205466db.2a81ce42@aol.com>

>Keeping in mind that it's been a while...
>
>A Naval change of command reflects the fact that the Captain of the
>vessel/unit/whatever IS the vessel/unit/whatever. 

A Hollywood version of the change of command (and a damned good performance 
by Humphrey Bogart) can be seen in THE CAINE MUTINY. A great movie, and an 
interesting approach to the US Navy in WWII, albeit not as historically 
accurate as it could be.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 19:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 18:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
Message-ID: <cb.263b55e1.2a81d002@aol.com>

>Jeff D. Greenly" says
><snip naval change of command>
>
>Don't forget - the outgoing commander has to do an inventory 
>with the new commander, and the new commander gets to sign 
>for the ship and all of the equipment in it.

Naval JAG: So what happened to the three 15" guns that used to in the aft 
turret?
Captain: What 15" guns? This is a destroyer!
Naval JAG: The ones in the property book you signed for when you took 
command. I'm afraid we can't allow you to retire until those are paid for . . 
. 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 19:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 18:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
Message-ID: <40.21dfb589.2a81d093@aol.com>

--part1_40.21dfb589.2a81d093_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

>Naval JAG: So what happened to the three 15" guns that used to in the aft 
>turret?
>Captain: What 15" guns? This is a destroyer!
>Naval JAG: The ones in the property book you signed for when you took 
>command. I'm afraid we can't allow you to retire until those are paid for . 
. 

Heh. Anyone remember the classic SF story "Allamagoosa?"

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

--part1_40.21dfb589.2a81d093_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt;Naval JAG: So what happened to the three 15" guns that used to in the aft 
<BR>&gt;turret?
<BR>&gt;Captain: What 15" guns? This is a destroyer!
<BR>&gt;Naval JAG: The ones in the property book you signed for when you took 
<BR>&gt;command. I'm afraid we can't allow you to retire until those are paid for . . 
<BR>
<BR>Heh. Anyone remember the classic SF story "Allamagoosa?"
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_40.21dfb589.2a81d093_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 19:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 18:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <OFD36DEE2F.D870CE31-ONCA256C0E.00093695@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

From Jesse & Doug:
>>>What about artists?  ;)
>>
>>Back in your hole, polygon boy!  When we want something from you, we'll 
do
>>the usual thing.  Toss a contract and art specs in your cage and pray 
you
>>don't ruin our finely crafted prose with your "art."
>
>No more grav tanks you Penguin Boy ;)
>
>And that should read:
>"When we want something from you, we'll do the usual thing.  *At the last 
minute,* toss >a contract and, *if you're lucky*, art specs in your cage 
and pray you don't ruin our >finely crafted prose with your "art."

Love it! Some friendly banter between Penguin Boy and The Polygon Kid.

I'm settling down with some popcorn.

;-)  ;-)

(BTW Jesse, when your next page update going to happen? %^)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 19:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 18:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <OFBDFF848E.6EC3E744-ONCA256C0E.0009E3EB@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Leonard wrote:
>If we can't follow our own laws except when it is convenient, we are
>all at the mercy of anybody in a position of authorty.

Welcome to the "rule of men, not laws".

BTW, did you receive the Straker Theme I sent over?

BTW #2, the mailer seems to be adding multiple copies of selected mail 
items to the digest. Is anyone in non-digest mode experiencing the same 
thing?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 20:19:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Tue Aug  6 19:19:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <40.21dfb589.2a81d093@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020806211959.00a6ea80@minn.net>

At 09:23 PM 8/6/2002 EDT, Jon F. Zeigler wrote:
>>Naval JAG: So what happened to the three 15" guns that used to in the aft  
>>turret? 
>>Captain: What 15" guns? This is a destroyer! 
>>Naval JAG: The ones in the property book you signed for when you took  
>>command. I'm afraid we can't allow you to retire until those are paid for
>. .  
> 
>Heh. Anyone remember the classic SF story "Allamagoosa?" 

Has anyone seen the offog?


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 20:25:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Aug  6 19:25:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <m3sn1yqp9b.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20806.173519.2Q3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
>>
>> Perhaps captured officers (or at least gentlebeings) are even given
>> their parole.
>
> How exactly does this work?  Does one promise not to fight against
> one's captor ever again, or simply for a time period, or until the end
> of the current engagement, or until one has journeyed back home,
> or...?  I've considered it pretty rotten that US soldiers are not
> allowed to give their parole and get back home, but perhaps that's
> just me.

Actually, in the Napoleonic era, "giving your parole" could be far more
limited. For example, it would let you wander about the base you were
being kept at without an escort. You'd have agreed to not try to escape
or to damage anything.

The sort that would get you released would likely involve not fighting
against them again during that war. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 20:34:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 19:34:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <OFBA2D763C.F2E139E2-ONCA256C0E.000A4049@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

David Smart wrote:
>Do you know how difficult it is for me to NOT
>print T-shirts of his stuff for personal use?

I'd been thinking about this for a while, too. A copyright question that I 
don't know the answer to is, "Is it 'fair use' if I put a Jesse picture on 
ONE T-Shirt for my own use?"

The alternative I thought of was asking Jesse for permission to make _two_ 
shirts, and sending him the second one as "payment". ;-)

Jesse, your thoughts?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 20:35:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dave Strebe)
Date: Tue Aug  6 19:35:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
References: <40.21dfb589.2a81d093@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002901c23db6$2a3bcea0$6401a8c0@vs.shawcable.net>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--Boundary_(ID_pKnSt/fCjzOf2fxs/cwTgA)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

That the one with the 'disappearing ships dog'.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JFZeigler@aol.com 
  To: tml@travellercentral.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 6:23 PM
  Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Silly Question


  >Naval JAG: So what happened to the three 15" guns that used to in the aft 
  >turret? 
  >Captain: What 15" guns? This is a destroyer! 
  >Naval JAG: The ones in the property book you signed for when you took 
  >command. I'm afraid we can't allow you to retire until those are paid for . . 

  Heh. Anyone remember the classic SF story "Allamagoosa?" 

  ---------- 
  Jon F. Zeigler 
  Line Editor, GURPS Traveller 
  jon@sjgames.com 
  "The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events." 

--Boundary_(ID_pKnSt/fCjzOf2fxs/cwTgA)
Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2716.2200" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>That the one with the 'disappearing ships 
dog'.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV 
  style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> 
  <A title=JFZeigler@aol.com 
  href="mailto:JFZeigler@aol.com">JFZeigler@aol.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=tml@travellercentral.com 
  href="mailto:tml@travellercentral.com">tml@travellercentral.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 06, 2002 6:23 
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [TML] Re: Silly 
  Question</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=2>&gt;Naval JAG: So what 
  happened to the three 15" guns that used to in the aft <BR>&gt;turret? 
  <BR>&gt;Captain: What 15" guns? This is a destroyer! <BR>&gt;Naval JAG: The 
  ones in the property book you signed for when you took <BR>&gt;command. I'm 
  afraid we can't allow you to retire until those are paid for . . <BR><BR>Heh. 
  Anyone remember the classic SF story "Allamagoosa?" <BR><BR>---------- <BR>Jon 
  F. Zeigler <BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller <BR>jon@sjgames.com <BR>"The 
  referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT> 
</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

--Boundary_(ID_pKnSt/fCjzOf2fxs/cwTgA)--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 20:41:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 19:41:11 2002
Subject: [TML] I reposted an entire Digest - Sorry!
Message-ID: <OF01BB50EA.68DB5AEA-ONCA256C0E.000E29B4@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

*Profound Apology*

I managed to forget to wipe out the rest of the message (ie. the entire 
contents of the digest) when I sent one of my "T20 background question" responses.

Sorry sorry sorry! (especially to those with bandwidth issues)

<shuffles off, embarrassed... mutter mutter, "swore I'd never do that!" 
mutter...>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 20:46:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Aug  6 19:46:13 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
In-Reply-To: <3d50427f.7657767@post.demon.co.uk>
References: <006301c23ce3$2bcea180$eeb18b90@computer>
 <006301c23ce3$2bcea180$eeb18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020806223905.027bbeb8@192.168.0.1>

At 10:48 PM 8/6/2002 +0000, Stephen Tempest wrote:
>"Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com> writes:
> >The counter mix from Invasion Earth might be worth studying.
>There aren't any TL15 units on either side.
>The Imperial Marines are 78% TL14 (1 division, 3 regiments) plus 2 IM
>regiments at TL12 and TL13.
>The Imperial regular army is 70% TL14, 20% TL13, 10% TL12.
>Imperial colonial forces (which account for about 30% of the total
>Imperial strength) are TL11 - TL14, with TL12 being the norm.
>Solomani regular troops are 43% TL14, 42% TL 13, 11% TL12 and 4% TL11.
>The local Terran guerrillas are all TL 13.

Ah...perfect, thanks

I wanted to come up with some light Solomani ship that would be active in 
the Rim War.
400 ton commerce raiders, transports for Commando units, that sort of thing.
Perhaps a light carrier at TL 12 carrying TL 13/14 fighters.
Just the sort of thing you want mucking around behind enemy lines....



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Firm footwork is the fount from which springs all
offense and defense." -- Giacomo diGrasse, 1570
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 21:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mosaic Tapestry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 20:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <40.21dfb589.2a81d093@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003c01c23dc2$11fe1850$2f7de40c@loki>

Allamagoosa

Eric Frank Russell (1905-1976) Born Sandhurst, Surrey. His father was in
the military and his family moved a number of times. He spent part of
his youth in Egypt and Sudan. At college, he studied a variety of
subjects including chemistry, physics and metallurgy. During WWII, he
took radio courses in London and at the Marconi College in Chelmsford,
eventually leading a small RAF mobile radio unit attached to General
Patton's army. He worked for a time in an engineering firm, published
his first novel in 1939, and later became a full-time writer. In his
later years, he gave up writing. 

Allamagoosa is, well, clever. It's fun to read, and amusing, and it's
one of those short stories with a punch line. The crew of a ship,
knowing that they're about to be audited, want to be sure there are no
discrepancies between the actual contents of their ship and the
inventory thereof. Except there *is* a discrepancy, and...I won't spoil
it for you. The Hugo winners are anthologized and pretty widely
available, and it's only a few pages long. Go ahead and read it, it'll
give you a chuckle.

Eric Frank Russell never became as famous as many of the other Hugo
Winners, but some of his novels have recently been re-issued and are
available at Amazon(1). Shadow Man: The life and works of Eric Frank
Russell(2) is a good fan site. For some reviews of some of Russell's
other works, visit this site(3).


(1)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/103-2568973-2316640
This link credits Loren with the assist at Amazon.
(2) http://www.stageleft.com.au/efr/
(3) http://ftp.logica.com/~stepneys/sf/books/r/russell.htm



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 21:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 20:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] GURPS Interstellar Wars
Message-ID: <157.120f94ca.2a81edae@aol.com>

> Many of you have probably already run across this, but for those who
> haven't, check out Evil Stevie's Daily Illuminator
> (http://www.sjgames.com/ill/) for the 8/6/02 entry.

I hadn't see it yet, but it does sound interesting.  The only thing
I hope is that this doesn't mean they are abandoning their alternate
history.

They have just gotten to the cusp of 1120 and actually having history
move forward.  It will be quite disappointing if instead history just
stops at 1120 as they abandon it for the Interstellar Wars.

The license is for BOTH the alternate universe and the Interstellar Wars 
period, and we are not going to abandon the alternate timeline. There is too 
much cool stuff that needs to see print.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 21:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 20:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: army usage
Message-ID: <159.121cd731.2a81f025@aol.com>

 >>I really think you should do some research on the situation in 
 >>Afganisthan and how everything went down before blurting things out.
 >>The main population of Afganisthan was opposed to the Taliban, which
 >>is mainly from a tribe to the south west (I think). 
 >
 >Tommy, you should do some research, too.  The Taliban was composed
 >primarily of Pakistani and Saudi volunteers who called themselves
 >"students" (of Islam).

No.  To my knowledge, on that particular point he's right.  The Taliban 
stronghold is in the large and populous tribes of southern Afghanistan.  As I 
understand it they are the largest single group of tribes and are in fact 
extensions of the tribes in Pakistan, which would be why Pakistan supported 
them.  It was Al Qaida that were "the Arabs", the foreigners.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 21:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Hamill)
Date: Tue Aug  6 20:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
In-Reply-To: <20020806190006.21475.58141.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020807034518.1959.qmail@web21510.mail.yahoo.com>

Excuse me, but does anyone happen to know the URL of
the GTS program by Thomas Bont? All the addresses I
have for it are broken, and I really need that program
yesterday. I have a chance to get a two-part GURPS:
Traveller game together, during a weekend mini-con at
the local game store, and I really need a couple of
ships fast. Well, faster than I can do them by hand,
anyway. Thanks for your help (in advance).

John
jwdh71@yahoo.com 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 21:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Aug  6 20:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <003c01c23dc2$11fe1850$2f7de40c@loki>
References: <003c01c23dc2$11fe1850$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <1028692602.3d509a7a7909e@www.paradise.net.nz>

Quoting Mosaic Tapestry <n2sami@attbi.com>:

> Eric Frank Russell never became as famous as many of the other Hugo
> Winners, but some of his novels have recently been re-issued and are
> available at Amazon(1). Shadow Man: The life and works of Eric Frank
> Russell(2) is a good fan site. For some reviews of some of Russell's
> other works, visit this site(3).

Eric Frank Russel is one of my favourite old-time SF writers. _Men, Martians 
and Machines_ and _The Great Explosion_ probably being my two favourites.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 22:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Tue Aug  6 21:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
In-Reply-To: <20020807034518.1959.qmail@web21510.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001501c23dc7$ff408580$0b01a8c0@duck>

http://webpages.charter.net/tombont/

I *love* this program.  He does take some minor liberties,
but it is more than close enough and it does the ugly stuff
for you to make your life easier.

Mike West
mjwest@caddocourt.com 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John Hamill
> Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 10:45 PM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
> 
> 
> Excuse me, but does anyone happen to know the URL of
> the GTS program by Thomas Bont? All the addresses I
> have for it are broken, and I really need that program
> yesterday. I have a chance to get a two-part GURPS:
> Traveller game together, during a weekend mini-con at
> the local game store, and I really need a couple of
> ships fast. Well, faster than I can do them by hand,
> anyway. Thanks for your help (in advance).
> 
> John
> jwdh71@yahoo.com 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
> http://health.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 22:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mosaic Tapestry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 21:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
In-Reply-To: <20020807034518.1959.qmail@web21510.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <004501c23dc8$887ca9a0$2f7de40c@loki>

You can find it midway down this page:

http://www.sjgames.com/general/gm-aids.html



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 22:14:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mosaic Tapestry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 21:14:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <1028692602.3d509a7a7909e@www.paradise.net.nz>
Message-ID: <004601c23dc8$c24f36c0$2f7de40c@loki>

Quoting Mosaic Tapestry <n2sami@attbi.com>:

> Eric Frank Russell never became as famous as many of the other Hugo

BTW, these words are not my own but were pinched from I can't remember
where on the web.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 22:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 21:26:03 2002
Subject: MT Vehicles (was: Re: [TML] Landgrab )
Message-ID: <OF72559D70.D8259EC8-ONCA256C0E.0010593F@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Peter asked:
>Does anyone have (or know of) some software  or  spreadsheet  for
>creating ground vehicles using MT rules?  I need to create  about
>a dozen different military vehicles for my Efate landgrab.

I created one, but it is a little basic and assumes you have the rules to 
plug the numbers in. (I did it years ago when I was worried about 
copyright and didn't know how to write a database spreadsheet. I still 
don't... ;-)

I downloaded one from the 'net... Ships III from Ace and The Dog's 
website. However, I can't remember if it covers vehicles. It's a bit flaky 
and can crash unexpectedly, so save often!
        http://www.ace-dog.com/downloads/downloads.htm

Would pulling a couple of designs from 101 Vehicles help? What are you 
after, specifically?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 22:50:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Hamill)
Date: Tue Aug  6 21:50:04 2002
Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
In-Reply-To: <001501c23dc7$ff408580$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <20020807044905.11399.qmail@web21510.mail.yahoo.com>

Thank you VERY much, this is a life saver. Now all I
have to do is build a couple of ships, half a dozen
PC's and about 10 NPC's by Friday. Peice of cake. :-)

--- Mike West <mjwest@caddocourt.com> wrote:
> http://webpages.charter.net/tombont/
> 
> I *love* this program.  He does take some minor
> liberties,
> but it is more than close enough and it does the
> ugly stuff
> for you to make your life easier.
> 
> Mike West
> mjwest@caddocourt.com 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> > [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf
> Of John Hamill
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 10:45 PM
> > To: tml@travellercentral.com
> > Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
> > 
> > 
> > Excuse me, but does anyone happen to know the URL
> of
> > the GTS program by Thomas Bont? All the addresses
> I
> > have for it are broken, and I really need that
> program
> > yesterday. I have a chance to get a two-part
> GURPS:
> > Traveller game together, during a weekend mini-con
> at
> > the local game store, and I really need a couple
> of
> > ships fast. Well, faster than I can do them by
> hand,
> > anyway. Thanks for your help (in advance).
> > 
> > John
> > jwdh71@yahoo.com 
> > 
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
> > http://health.yahoo.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > TML mailing list
> > TML@travellercentral.com
> >
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> > 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 22:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Tue Aug  6 21:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
In-Reply-To: <20020807044905.11399.qmail@web21510.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001601c23dce$de6fa050$0b01a8c0@duck>

When you click down, please also take note of the GURPS Character Maker.
That should help with the second part.  :-)

Oh, and I forgot to mention in the first message that it seems he
renamed the program to GURPS Modular Vehicles (GMV).  The link on the 
SJG site references a slightly older version that is still called GTS.

Mike West
mjwest@caddocourt.com 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John Hamill
> Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 11:49 PM
> To: Mike West
> Cc: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: RE: [TML] GTS-the program
> 
> 
> Thank you VERY much, this is a life saver. Now all I
> have to do is build a couple of ships, half a dozen
> PC's and about 10 NPC's by Friday. Peice of cake. :-)
> 
> --- Mike West <mjwest@caddocourt.com> wrote:
> > http://webpages.charter.net/tombont/
> > 
> > I *love* this program.  He does take some minor
> > liberties,
> > but it is more than close enough and it does the
> > ugly stuff
> > for you to make your life easier.
> > 
> > Mike West
> > mjwest@caddocourt.com 
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> > > [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf
> > Of John Hamill
> > > Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 10:45 PM
> > > To: tml@travellercentral.com
> > > Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Excuse me, but does anyone happen to know the URL
> > of
> > > the GTS program by Thomas Bont? All the addresses
> > I
> > > have for it are broken, and I really need that
> > program
> > > yesterday. I have a chance to get a two-part
> > GURPS:
> > > Traveller game together, during a weekend mini-con
> > at
> > > the local game store, and I really need a couple
> > of
> > > ships fast. Well, faster than I can do them by
> > hand,
> > > anyway. Thanks for your help (in advance).
> > > 
> > > John
> > > jwdh71@yahoo.com 
> > > 
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
> > > http://health.yahoo.com
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > TML mailing list
> > > TML@travellercentral.com
> > >
> >
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> > > 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
> http://health.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 23:00:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Tue Aug  6 22:00:05 2002
Subject: [TML] GURPS Interstellar Wars
In-Reply-To: <157.120f94ca.2a81edae@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001701c23dcf$39dd3c40$0b01a8c0@duck>

> > Many of you have probably already run across this, but for those who
> > haven't, check out Evil Stevie's Daily Illuminator
> > (http://www.sjgames.com/ill/) for the 8/6/02 entry.
>
> I hadn't see it yet, but it does sound interesting.  The only thing
> I hope is that this doesn't mean they are abandoning their alternate
> history.
> ----------------
>
> The license is for BOTH the alternate universe and the Interstellar Wars
> period, and we are not going to abandon the alternate timeline. There is
too
> much cool stuff that needs to see print.
>
> LKW

I figured this was the case, but just wanted to make sure.  Thank you
for the quick response.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 23:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Hamill)
Date: Tue Aug  6 22:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
In-Reply-To: <001601c23dce$de6fa050$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <20020807053026.71876.qmail@web21501.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Mike West <mjwest@caddocourt.com> wrote:
> When you click down, please also take note of the
> GURPS Character Maker.
> That should help with the second part.  :-)

Thanks, already seen and acquired, er, liberated, er
downloaded, yeah, that's it. :-)

> Oh, and I forgot to mention in the first message
> that it seems he
> renamed the program to GURPS Modular Vehicles (GMV).
>  The link on the 
> SJG site references a slightly older version that is
> still called GTS.
> 
> Mike West
> mjwest@caddocourt.com 

Thanks, I saw that too, I think he had done that after
he added the modular grav vehicle rules, much crunchy
goodness.

John
jwdh71@yahoo.com
 
> > 
> > 
> > Thank you VERY much, this is a life saver. Now all
> I
> > have to do is build a couple of ships, half a
> dozen
> > PC's and about 10 NPC's by Friday. Peice of cake.
> :-)
> > 
> > --- Mike West <mjwest@caddocourt.com> wrote:
> > > http://webpages.charter.net/tombont/
> > > 
> > > I *love* this program.  He does take some minor
> > > liberties,
> > > but it is more than close enough and it does the
> > > ugly stuff
> > > for you to make your life easier.
> > > 
> > > Mike West
> > > mjwest@caddocourt.com 
> > > 
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > 
> > > > Excuse me, but does anyone happen to know the
> URL
> > > of
> > > > the GTS program by Thomas Bont? All the
> addresses
> > > I
> > > > have for it are broken, and I really need that
> > > program
> > > > yesterday. I have a chance to get a two-part
> > > GURPS:
> > > > Traveller game together, during a weekend
> mini-con
> > > at
> > > > the local game store, and I really need a
> couple
> > > of
> > > > ships fast. Well, faster than I can do them by
> > > hand,
> > > > anyway. Thanks for your help (in advance).
> > > > 
> > > > John
> > > > jwdh71@yahoo.com 
> > > > 
> > > >
> __________________________________________________
> > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
> > > > http://health.yahoo.com
> > > >
> _______________________________________________
> > > > TML mailing list
> > > > TML@travellercentral.com
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> > > > 



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 23:45:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Clint Rynners)
Date: Tue Aug  6 22:45:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
Message-ID: <OFDEC7001F.B4AA8375-ON42256C0E.001D1133@ko.com>

"Sufficiently advanced technology makes life on an airless
rockball possible - why would such a species need to preserve
its wildlife?"

Mr Kwon

I wondered about that myself, but had no ready answers, not being a
biologist. I partially agree that we would not need to preserve our
wildlife, but I believe that we need biomass in some form to survive.
Perhaps not as complex a system as we currently have on Earth, but in some
form that provides life support for us. We could speculate that an advanced
species could move beyond biological dependency - living as complex pieces
of code in a virtual reality, or in more robust machine forms. However, I
do think that before we reach this stage, we are going to remain dependent
on a biological system that we poorly understand and which we have severely
damaged. I am not a rabid vegan greeny, but I do believe that we have to
change the way we do things before we can marshal the resources to expand
off our world.

"If a warlike species
came to be dominated by a single high tech faction, through
limited nuclear war and genocidal action, and used this high
technology to permanently dominate and subjugate its
population, it would survive its birth into a nuclear age and
birth into a starfaring age."

Your contention that the solution to problems caused by exponential growth
does not have to be peaceful has merit,  I just don't believe that it will
happen with humanity now. At this stage of our global society, where one
power possibly has the military lead necessary to take the path you
suggest, the will is no longer there. This has something to do with a
hangover from the horrors that were visited on the world over the past 50
years. I do believe that if the USA mobilised fully, it could impose a
single world government, but I think the cost would be terrible.

Could it turned out differently? Possibly, but I don't have the frame of
reference for seeing this. In the one example we have to go on, a single
power has never had such a clear lead that an attempt at global control
would not  have entailed a great risk to the extermination of humanity. I
also note that the great warmongering empires have not persisted for very
long when they attempted to impose their version of manifest destiny on the
world. If you belong to a warmongering species, your opponents are not
going to roll over and play dead.

Having said all this, if sentient life is fairly widespread in our
universe, then the probability of of your scenario occuring could be high,
and likely to have advanced very far already. To misquote Fermi: "Where are
they" then? Even if your warmongering species exists, I retain my
contention that we would be regarded as more of a curiosity than a threat.
We are far more likely to be harvested in some way than simply
exterminated.

Regards

Clint Rynners

ps. after a flurry of typing, I read my response and note that rather than
being focused, it is a meander between a number of different ideas. I hope
it is at least slightly understandable :)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 00:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Tue Aug  6 23:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <20020807020627.6743406c80f7471790ae6758c061e780.in@keywest.kennett.net>

<snip good info.>

Thanks.  Anybody can provide with how the Royal Navy does it?  Has the USN
changed anything from the afore-explained procedure? 

>I think that because the Imperial Navy has such a long history, it
>probably has a lot of cool traditions. Anything that you threw in for
>color, like Marines in some traditional dress uniforms standing behind
>the "quarterdeck", the transfer of a baton, staff or whistle, maybe a
>reading of the ship's history...

Oddly enough....I ask this question because I was busy plotting a story and
realized that I, despite knowing a bit about military, military history,
military life, and military tech, suffered from some gapping holes in my
knowledge base.  That was one of it.

Thanks,

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

 My Sale List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
 My Want List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 00:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue Aug  6 23:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <20020807054503.7786.43314.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentra
 l.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020807234111.009faa50@mailhost.efn.org>

> >Heh. Anyone remember the classic SF story "Allamagoosa?"
>
>Has anyone seen the offog?

"Please describe how official dog Peaslake came apart under gravitational 
stress..."


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 01:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Wed Aug  7 00:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <OFDEC7001F.B4AA8375-ON42256C0E.001D1133@ko.com>
Message-ID: <3D5174AB.19191.F0AB707@localhost>

On 7 Aug 2002, at 7:47, Clint Rynners wrote:

> I wondered about that myself, but had no ready answers, not being a
> biologist. I partially agree that we would not need to preserve our
> wildlife, but I believe that we need biomass in some form to survive.

At the current rates of extinction, somewhere between every six months 
and two years (depending on which biologist you listen to) we destroy one 
undiscovered medicine.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 02:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Wed Aug  7 01:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : OK, Now What?
Message-ID: <000801c23de9$3cfa8300$c69c67cb@robert>

John Kwon wrote:-
> First I keep reading that plasma weapons are not possible -
> the bolt would dissipate a short distance from the barrel.  
<snip>

One potential problem was with dissipation, the other with
the ridiculous energies required (there's a good line in 'Guns, Guns,
Guns'
comparing PGMP-like weapons to Bangalore torpedoes...)

There's been a lot of recent research into ball lightning. Maybe a
militarily useful amount of plasma can be packaged in this way.

Another alternative (as recently seen on rec.arts.sf.science) are
weapons
that fire very small projectiles (~1 gram mass) at high (10s of
kilometers/sec) velocities. These will leave plasma trails as they zip
through the air...


Robert O'Connor
Medico, gamer


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 02:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed Aug  7 01:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Spam Spam Spam Spam...
In-Reply-To: <19d.66884a1.2a7f37e7@aol.com>
References: <19d.66884a1.2a7f37e7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020807105440.0a18f64c.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Sun, 04 Aug 2002 22:07:35 -0400 (EDT)
GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:

> I would expect that any planet in Solomani space settled by Hawaiians would 
> either create or import vast amounts.  How widespread it would get really 
> depends on shelf-life and the viability of swine off Terra. It may just be 
> that pigs just don't taste the same when raised elsewhere, and so all Spam 
> comes from Terra...

Although very oddd, this would make SPAM a luxury product for offworlders...

Come to think of it, most products that come from special places are not considered luxuries there, but they probably are at other locations.

Groat Musk Perfume would be a nasty thing to hit the PCs with...  ;-)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 02:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed Aug  7 01:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] adventure
In-Reply-To: <1ac.6380721.2a7f37b7@aol.com>
References: <1ac.6380721.2a7f37b7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020807105753.493c4a62.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Sun, 04 Aug 2002 22:06:47 -0400 (EDT)
Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> Traveller Adventure: Comet Busters
> 
> For referees only.  If you intend to play this adventure, quit reading now 
> and direct your game referee to this page. 

*sound of harddrive saving file*

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 03:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Wed Aug  7 02:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: army usage
In-Reply-To: <159.121cd731.2a81f025@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D5193C8.30462.F843FC6@localhost>

On 6 Aug 2002, at 23:38, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:


>  >Tommy, you should do some research, too.  The Taliban was composed
>  >primarily of Pakistani and Saudi volunteers who called themselves
>  >"students" (of Islam).

> No.  To my knowledge, on that particular point he's right.  The Taliban 
> stronghold is in the large and populous tribes of southern Afghanistan.  As I
> understand it they are the largest single group of tribes and are in fact
> extensions of the tribes in Pakistan, which would be why Pakistan supported
> them.  It was Al Qaida that were "the Arabs", the foreigners.

Without wanting to get too bogged down into the ins and outs of 
Afghanistan, everybody is wrong and everybody is right. The Taliban 
themselves drew a hard core of support from the Pashtuns (the largest 
ethnic group in Afghanistan).

However, it is a mistake to think that the Taliban were supported by the 
majority of the Afghan population. While the Pashtuns are the largest 
group, they do not form a majority; nor did the Taliban draw their support 
from even a majority of Pashtuns. But the previous rulers (later known as 
the Northern Alliance) engaged in a vicious civil war (even by the standards 
of civil wars) and into this stepped the Taliban (with considerable Pakistani 
and Al Quida support). They started to get an upper hand in the civil war 
and the various tribal warlords saw what they thought was a winner and 
lined up behind them. This created a snowball and very quickly the Taliban 
were in charge.

Fast forward a few years, the former rulers (now known as the Northern 
Alliance) are being slowly ground down. Then enter the US and other 
Western nations with lavish air and logistic support. The various tribal 
warlords see what they think is a winner, line up behind them and the 
same snowball sweeps the Taliban out of power.

Now things have reverted back to the "classic" Afghani pattern. There is a 
"King" controlling Kabul in nominal charge of the country, but the real 
control is in the hands of the various tribal warlords. You have examples 
with US officers turning up at a tribal chieftain's camp and paying him in 
gold for the use of his warriors.

ObTrav: If you can't make a decent low tech govt 0 backwater out of that, 
you just aren't trying.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 04:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug  7 03:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] GURPS MISSILE WARFARE (was The big fleet debate)
In-Reply-To: <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com> <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com> <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net> <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net> <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>

hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> One interesting development was to build a specialized targeting
> computer.

Yes, I've since realised that it is well worth it.  I had thought that
surely a dedicated mainframe or macroframe would be too expensive, but
apparently not.


> The point defense lasers I built could easily attain that ROF bonus. 

Oh, sure.  I had thought you were talking about the standard lasers.
Higher RoF really isn't worth it under the GT rules though.


> Minor thoughts: part of that +10 bonus for Point defense comes of the fact
> that the missiles attempting to hit you have to come in from a specific
> "region".

If that is the reason, the designers overlooked a very important fact:
missiles can, and will, maneuver widely in flight.  The potential
approach region could be nearly 60 degrees wide without much effect on
impact energy.

I think the +10 point defense bonus was really an attempt to model a
"wait till you see the whites of their eyes" perfect firing solution.
Basically it should just say that the range penalty is -29, instead of
range -39 with a random +10 bonus.  Even then, it should really only
be about +5, appropriate for a range of 700 miles.  It doesn't do much
good to disable a kinetic-kill missile 0.3 seconds before it hits.


>  But you are correct.  There should be a MAX number of targets that
> can be engaged by a single laser group per turn equal to the max
> number of shots a single laser in the grouping and put out in a
> turn.

More precisely, equal to how many shots one laser can fire in the time
it takes a missile to get in from the laser's max range.  That time
will almost always be much less than a turn, typically a tenth.


> Using the concept that the current weapon systems are designed to
> operate against the current enemy weapon technology - try using the
> GURPS TRAVELLER missile designs first.  Then do an analysis of
> weapons in the TRAVELLER universe.

Yes, even the standard missiles defeat equal tonnage of standard point
defense, but not by a lot.  The problem is that there is *huge* room
for improvement in the missiles, but not much room for improvement in
the lasers.


> I am still flabberghasted that no one ever noticed that the FAST
> drug makes a FAR better alternative for cheap travel than does a
> freeze tube!

I'm not particularly surprised :)

Often it takes an outside opinion to spot such things.  That's why
game designers have playtests, after all!


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 04:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug  7 03:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <3D4F3B54.62F77189@mindspring.com>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com> <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net> <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <20020805075953.A24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <3436.64.8.3.28.1028520584.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <20020805215043.E25687@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D4F3B54.62F77189@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020807204852.B31397@freeman.little-possums.net>

alan spik wrote:
> I always considered the HE as essentially a frag grenade for
> ships. A small cloud of debris having a better chance to hit.

Yeah, that works too.  Maybe that accounts for the low impact damage
of missiles in G:Traveller compared to G:Vehicles.  80% of the
fragments miss...


> Thanks for a nasty tactic. The Forinians IMMTU are going to be using
> that. I was going to have to bring in more help. I think it will be
> quite a suprise to my players.

Work out what happens if the launching ship can get a run-up of, say,
0.1 AU at 6 gees.  That's a hundred hexes per turn to begin with.  If
the player's side is jumping in to a defended system, their jump flash
will mean that the defender has a very distinct sensor advantage.

I hope it's not the player's ship that gets hit.  200,000 points of
damage per missile is not conducive to a lengthy game session 8^O


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 04:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug  7 03:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
In-Reply-To: <20020806185605.50939.qmail@web10605.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020806185605.50939.qmail@web10605.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020807205547.C31397@freeman.little-possums.net>

Daniel Burns wrote:
> Unlike GT where it seems you can spot those nasty c-rocks at a few

"Argh! Don't say that word!"

> parsecs while they are ramped up to speed,

Sure, a decade or so later when the sensor information gets to you.
It's poking along at light-speed, remember?  :)


> and be waiting for the emergence a week later which will also show
> up easily, right in the middle of your defence solution.  Oops, a
> rant? Well at least 'twas short ;)

Yes, the emergence will be noted.  Not much good that does them
though.  You godda problem wiv dat? ;)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 07:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug  7 06:35:04 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Landgrab of Vilis
Message-ID: <b027a2b020e3.b020e3b027a2@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Date: Tuesday, August 6, 2002 3:08 am
Subject: [TML] re:  Landgrab of Vilis

> >From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
> 
> >If I'm doing Vilis, I think I had better do Garda-Vilis, 
> >unless someone has already done that one.
> 
> That's Tanoose to you, apologist scum!
> 
> This message has been brought to you by the Tanoose Freedom League.


IMTU, as long as the 1199th Infantry Regiment (Jump) (Commando) is 
stationed there, it's Garda-Vilis, thank you very much. ;-)

<<snip disclaimer>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 07:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed Aug  7 06:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D39@USCHM203>

>Leonard Erickson wrote:

>But shooting prisoners or mistreating them is against our *laws*. Which
>is one reason why a number of folks are more that a bit upswet about
>the fact that at the current time we are *violating* our own laws when
>it comes to the people taken prisoner in Afghanistan and held at
>Guantanamo Bay. They haven't been accorded prisoner of war status, nor
>have they been classified as criminals awaiting trial.

>We are damaging our own legal system *badly* by doing this. And that
>and other similar things we are doing are actually more apt to destroy
>the US than the actions of the terrorists!

Actually, these men are NOT POWs. Technically we could have them summarily
executed, and it would be perfectly legal, though would upset alot of
bleeding hearts. 
Partisans, saboteurs, spies, and other irregulars, which certainly includes
terrorists, are not protected by either formal or informal Rules of War or
the Geneva Convention.
During WWII those captured were shot out of hand most of the time, and it
was not considered illegal. I can't recall a single German officer being
tried for shooting such troops (as opposed to retaliating against civilians
for the actions of partisans, which IS illegal).
Allied soldiers and civilians who participated in such covert and irregular
actions were fully aware that they would not be treated as POWs if captured.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 07:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Aug  7 06:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Landgrab of Vilis
Message-ID: <200208071346.MGL01636@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

john groth, off on an adventure, says

>IMTU, as long as the 1199th Infantry Regiment (Jump) 
>(Commando) is stationed there, it's Garda-Vilis, thank you 
>very much. ;-)
>

Mark Urbin will be doing Garda-Vilis, and we'll look into 
putting something there.  The backdrop of the Broadsword 
adventure, however, seems to be that Vilis doesn't have a 
strong military presence at Garda-Vilis, and therefore they 
hire the Broadsword and its mercenaries.

Later in the adventure, merchant ships containing a Vilis 
infantry unit arrives, so this could be the 1199th.

It's odd.  Considering the sheer number of people on Vilis, 
one might imagine that it would have infantrymen coming out 
of their ears.

Also, another oddity - Vilis seems to have a TL 12 ship in 
its navy, although Vilis is not TL 12.  Is this an obsolete 
Imperial ship purchased by Vilis?  Is this sort of thing 
common?  
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 07:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Aug  7 06:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] John Beats The Dead Horse of Imperial Rules Of War...
Message-ID: <200208071354.MGL02479@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Hurrel, Brian says
>Technically we could have them summarily executed, and it 
>would be perfectly legal, though would upset alot of
>bleeding hearts. 

In RL there is the Hague and Geneva Convention.  Plenty of RL 
canon, and lawyers who can pontificate on the subject.

In Traveller, are there distinctions between soldiers, 
combatants (non-uniformed, ad hoc non-soldiers), and non-
combatants?  Obviously, the Hague Convention idea 
that "hollow points are bad" is right out, as the Gauss rifle 
round is described as a hollowpoint.  Not to mention that 
shooting people with a plasma gun is a bit more overkill than 
shooting them with a .50 BMG.

The player characters in any Traveller party would often fall 
into the category of illegal combatant.  They aren't wearing 
a uniform, they don't belong to an official army, and aren't 
part of an officially responsible chain of command.  In a war 
zone, if they were caught fighting an official military 
force, and they surrendered, would they be considered 
prisoners of war, or would they be shot out of hand after the 
local Imperial Marine lieutenant heard his platoon sergeant's 
report?

I'm assuming, of course, that someone in the party was stupid 
enough to fire at the Marines, and that by some miracle, the 
party was not annihilated by the return fire...
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 08:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Wed Aug  7 07:04:03 2002
Subject: MT Vehicles (was: Re: [TML] Landgrab )
References: <OF72559D70.D8259EC8-ONCA256C0E.0010593F@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <000401c23e1b$85fa2ec0$5600a8c0@imogen>

Hyphen wrote:
> Peter asked:
> >Does anyone have (or know of) some software  or  spreadsheet  for
> >creating ground vehicles using MT rules?  I need to create  about
> >a dozen different military vehicles for my Efate landgrab.
> 
> I created one, but it is a little basic and assumes you have the
> rules to plug the numbers in. (I did it years ago when I was
> worried about copyright and didn't know how to write a database
> spreadsheet. I still don't... ;-)
> 
> I downloaded one from the 'net... Ships III from Ace and The Dog's 
> website. However, I can't remember if it covers vehicles. It's a
> bit flaky and can crash unexpectedly, so save often!
>         http://www.ace-dog.com/downloads/downloads.htm
> 
> Would pulling a couple of designs from 101 Vehicles help? What are
> you after, specifically?

Ships III doesn't do vehicles (according to its manual there  are
no ground vehicle drives, etc).  I have been trying  to  use  the
DOS program for vehicles from the same site but it seems to  have
major flaws (either that or my own math  is  way  off).  And  101
Vehicles doesn't have the range I need.

I'm in the process of detailing out the armed forces  of  Efate's
Regular Army for a Landgrab.  As this is  a  place  with  a  high
chance of merc adventures (think  high-tech  'Nam  in  Traveller)
this detail seems more important than with  other  Landgrabs.  So
far I have a need for an MBT, an air  defence  AFV,  3  different
artillery AFVs, assorted AFVs for EW/ND/command/commo, a recovery
vehicle, a field repair vehicle, a G-Carrier with 3 variants,  an
APC with 5 variants, and a fast recon vehicle (possibly a  Trasea
grav bike for the last).  Before I'm done  I'll  probably  double
this list, and thats before I get to the COACC  aerospace  units,
the rear  echelon  support  vehicles,  or  the  typical  civilian
vehicles used by the militia on both sides!  If  anyone's  got  a
fetish for designing lots of MT vehicles I could pre-release  the
unit org charts for a better understanding of the requirements.

Hmmm ... or how about a TL 13 military vehicle rodeo (MT only)?

Regards PLST





From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 08:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed Aug  7 07:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Yankee Imperium (was Dehumanization)
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D3D@USCHM203>

>Clint Rynners wrote:
>[snip large essay]

>I do believe that if the USA mobilised fully, it could impose a
>single world government, but I think the cost would be terrible.

>[snip large essay]

I'm taking this snippet completely out of context, but it got me thinking
...sometimes...I wonder...then I realize he's right, the cost would be
terrible....
On the other hand, what would MY position be in this United States of the
World? Would it be like the Terrans taking over the Ziru Sirka?
Our friends up north, across the pond, and down under (you know who you are)
will rule alongside us----no, on second thought, we'll just allow you
limited home rule.
France will be ceded to Germany (to be ruled by appointed Governor David
Hasselhoff), just because. 
Everyone else shall fall under the shadow of the Golden Arches and Mickey
Mouse.
And Switzerland will not be allowed to remain neutral this time.
As for that troublesome part of the world in the news lately...well, with
one world government, there will be no need for nuclear weapons----date and
time of America Rules fireworks display shall be posted.
Oh, and Traveller Game Sessions will be mandatory through grades 9-12.

...I really need to get to bed earlier.....



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 08:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug  7 07:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump governor
Message-ID: <b35fd8b30977.b30977b35fd8@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: MJ Dougherty <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Date: Tuesday, August 6, 2002 12:30 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Jump governor

> 
> > I don't see these in High Guard - IMTU, they don't exist.  If
> > a Jump-4 ship jumps 2 parsecs, they only use 2 parsecs worth
> > of fuel.
> >
> > What was the last canon word on this subject, if any?
> 
> Marc's last statement (and confirmed to me in a question I asked a 
> whileago) was that if you have J-3 fuel and you J-1, you only use 
> J1 of fuel up.

IIRC, the concept of jump governors was based on the following:

1.  LBB2 states that all jump fuel is used in a single jump, regardless 
of the distance of the jump (I'll have to head back to my barracks room 
later to find the page reference; it may be from an earlier printing of 
LBB2).
2.  HG2 indicates that, as per MWM's statement referenced above, you use 
fuel only for the distance actually travelled.
3.  A "jump governor" was a device that could be retrofitted to LBB2 
ships' jump drives to give them HG2 levels of fuel efficiency.

As later versions of Traveller all assume jump fuel usage to be similar 
or superior to that of HG2, jump governors are no longer addressed.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 08:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Wed Aug  7 07:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D39@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <3D51D5BF.15510.1085EB73@localhost>

On 7 Aug 2002, at 9:38, Hurrel, Brian wrote:

> Actually, these men are NOT POWs. Technically we could have them summarily
> executed, and it would be perfectly legal, though would upset alot of bleeding
> hearts. Partisans, saboteurs, spies, and other irregulars, which certainly
> includes terrorists, are not protected by either formal or informal Rules of
> War or the Geneva Convention. During WWII those captured were shot out of hand
> most of the time, and it was not considered illegal. I can't recall a single
> German officer being tried for shooting such troops (as opposed to retaliating
> against civilians for the actions of partisans, which IS illegal). Allied
> soldiers and civilians who participated in such covert and irregular actions
> were fully aware that they would not be treated as POWs if captured.

The rules changed after the 2nd WW (in response to exactly the situation 
you describe). Irregular combantants are explicitly covered now. Check 
Article 4 of the 1949 Geneva Convention on POWs (the Al Quida prisioners 
can make a pretty darn strong case under 4:2 BTW):

Article 4
A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons 
belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power 
of the enemy:
1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as 
members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.
2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, 
including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party 
to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this 
territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, 
including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following 
conditions:
(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
(c) That of carrying arms openly;
(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and 
customs of war.
3. Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a 
government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.
4. Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being 
members thereof, such as civilian members of military aircraft crews, war 
correspondents, supply contractors, members of labour units or of services 
responsible for the welfare of the armed forces, provided that they have 
received authorization from the armed forces which they accompany, who 
shall provide them for that purpose with an identity card similar to the 
annexed model.
5. Members of crews, including masters, pilots and apprentices, of the 
merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, 
who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions 
of international law.
6. Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the 
enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without 
having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they 
carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.

BTW its incumbant on the *detaining* power to disprove a potential POWs 
status. When in doubt, they have to be accorded POW status until the 
detaining power proves that they don't.

You'll also find similar articles in the 1975 Hague Conventions and the 1987 
Geneva Declaration on Terrorism.

ObTrav: Not much, how many PC mercenary groups retain a lawyer to 
keep upto date on the latest intepretations of the Rules of War.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 08:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Wed Aug  7 07:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] John Beats The Dead Horse of Imperial Rules Of War...
In-Reply-To: <200208071354.MGL02479@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D51DB9E.19603.109CDB0F@localhost>

On 7 Aug 2002, at 9:54, John T. Kwon wrote:

> The player characters in any Traveller party would often fall 
> into the category of illegal combatant.  They aren't wearing 
> a uniform, they don't belong to an official army, and aren't 
> part of an officially responsible chain of command.  In a war 
> zone, if they were caught fighting an official military 
> force, and they surrendered, 

If the relevant Interstellar Conventions follow the relevant RL ones, they 
could well be "legal combatants". You don't need to be part of an official 
chain of command, just have a some one clearly in charge (ie a unit CO). 
You don't need to be wearing a uniform, just a "fixed distinctive sign 
recognizable at a distance" (a simple armband will do). And you don't need 
to be part of the official army, just recognised by one of the parties. Heck 
you've even got protection for "Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who 
on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the 
invading forces" (depending on the circumstances). I'd imagine that the 
various Ine Givar Cadre's in FFW could well come under these catagories.

However, I think most PC would fail due to the "Conduct their operations in 
accordance with the laws and customs of war" (how many PC groups have 
you seen that would meet that criteria :*>)
 
> would they be considered 
> prisoners of war, or would they be shot out of hand after the 
> local Imperial Marine lieutenant heard his platoon sergeant's 
> report?

Assuming they actually made it into custody (ie the platoon didn't just gun 
them down and worry about the legal niceties later), I doubt they'd be shot 
out of hand. Far better for the Marine Lt to play it safe and send them up 
the line, and leave the decisions as to their combatant status to someone 
less likely to face a disciplinary board for getting it wrong.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 09:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Aug  7 08:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Landgrab of Vilis
Message-ID: <20020807150956.2D7CE4509@mo120usjc.palm.net>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:
>Mark Urbin will be doing Garda-Vilis, and we'll look into  
>putting something there.  The backdrop of the Broadsword  
>adventure, however, seems to be that Vilis doesn't have a  
>strong military presence at Garda-Vilis, and therefore they  
>hire the Broadsword and its mercenaries. 
>Later in the adventure, merchant ships containing a Vilis  
>infantry unit arrives, so this could be the 1199th. 

Jump Commandos sounds more like a well funded Imperial unit to me.
Some number cruncher will probably point out that every TL 4+ planet with a population over 500,000 can afford it's own regiment of Jump Commandos though. :-)

>It's odd.  Considering the sheer number of people on Vilis,  
>one might imagine that it would have infantrymen coming out  
>of their ears. 

This could be political function. 
IMTU, Vilis has a large urban underclass that produces violent gangs.  These gangers, when rounded up, are often given the choice of the Imperial Marines or something that would make a stint in MyMines (tm) look good.

So, if Vilis were to set up a good 'ginder' boot camp process (like the Pournelle CoDo Marines), the could churn out decent Light Infantry.
Useful for merc work as well as local defense.  

>Also, another oddity - Vilis seems to have a TL 12 ship in  
>its navy, although Vilis is not TL 12.  Is this an obsolete  
>Imperial ship purchased by Vilis?  Is this sort of thing  
>common?   

My memory says yes, according to canon.  The Imperial Navy (or perhaps even the Sector Navy) probably gave them a good price for it.

>FRONT TOWARD ENEMY 
----------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere. 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 09:27:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Aug  7 08:27:08 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <3D5174AB.19191.F0AB707@localhost>
References: <3D5174AB.19191.F0AB707@localhost>
Message-ID: <m365ymsna4.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> writes:
> 
> At the current rates of extinction, somewhere between every six
> months and two years (depending on which biologist you listen to) we
> destroy one undiscovered medicine.

We destroy one natural source of an undiscovered medicine, perhaps.
But we can synthesise just about anything these days.  My best friend
is a biochemist (well, almost--getting his PhD in a year), and if I
remember our conversations correctly, most biochemistry these days is
_not_ `oh, some old wives' tale says this is good; let's try it,' but
rather `let's see which substances we can squeeze through _this_
barrier,' i.e. it's pretty much known what most substances are going
to do; the trick is to get them through cell walls, preserve them
until they hit the right parts of the body, keep them from hitting the
wrong parts.

The company he's interning with essentially takes a patented molecule,
developes a thousand variations on it, and sells those variations back
to the original patenter, IIRC.

But perhaps there are practicing biochemists on the list who have
better knowledge than dimly-remembered conversations between
students...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it
flips over, pinning you underneath.  At night, the ice weasels
come.                                          --Matt Groening

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 10:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Aug  7 09:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
Message-ID: <F147AHJb3f9oUwnX8hD000049be@hotmail.com>

From: John Hamill <jwdh71@yahoo.com>

     "I have a chance to get a two-part GURPS:Traveller game together, 
during a weekend mini-con at the local game store, and I really need a 
couple of ships fast. Well, faster than I can do them by hand, anyway."


Mr. Hamill,

     IIRC, the BITS website has a wonderful, massive, and free PDF download 
chocked full of G:T ships.  Al TLs, all races, all functions too.  Why build 
ships when someone else has done the work for you already?  :)
     A free PDF reader can be downloaded at the Adobe webiste too.
     Google should point you to both locations.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 10:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed Aug  7 09:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15FA@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

We aim to please :)  And it was three days ago ;)  Only one shot of some stuff I'm working on for BITS, and it'll be replaced with a better shot shortly, but you get the idea ;D
Jesse


Love it! Some friendly banter between Penguin Boy and The Polygon Kid.

I'm settling down with some popcorn.

;-)  ;-)

(BTW Jesse, when your next page update going to happen? %^)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 10:17:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed Aug  7 09:17:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15F9@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Well, if Marc'll ever get back to me on it, that could happen ;)  Stay tuned...
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: David Smart [mailto:jurrubin@earthlink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 5:15 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .


Mark C. posted:
> 
> Jesse DeGraff <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> writes:
> 
> > What about artists?  ;)
> 
> Sure, why not?  Do you know any? >^)
> 
>     - Mark C.

Oh, gawd, puh-LEEZE let him on it. Maybe SJG will one
day market his graphics on T-shirts (HINT, HINT!).

Do you know how difficult it is for me to NOT
print T-shirts of his stuff for personal use?

David Smart
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 10:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed Aug  7 09:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D4D@USCHM203>

>Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance wrote:

>The rules changed after the 2nd WW (in response to exactly the situation 
>you describe). Irregular combantants are explicitly covered now. Check 
>Article 4 of the 1949 Geneva Convention on POWs (the Al Quida prisioners 
>can make a pretty darn strong case under 4:2 BTW):

I didn't know about that, though it does sound reasonable in may cases which
can be considered "gray areas".

>"(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and 
>customs of war."

Obviously actively engaged terrorists violate this requirement, but I have
to admit that it might be a tough case to prove against Al Quaida members
captured in Afghanistan. Legally prove. In reality, I know it, you know it,
and they know it.
Unless you make the entire organization responsible for 9/11 and other acts
of terrorism in an attempt to destroy the US, which is their stated aim.
They even have manuals for various acts, and explicitly condone the use of
torture for the cause (for the record, those in the US advocating the same
are idiots of the worst order). 
So IMHO, any Al Quaida are fair game for the firing squad.

Apologies for off-topic, though it does bring up some interesting threads
regarding how player characters that are not part of an official army would
be treated.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 10:22:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed Aug  7 09:22:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15FB@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

I don't have a problem with personal use, provided 1.you buy my shirts if/when I can get a deal worked out with Marc ;D and 2.you only use non-SJG images that are on my site.  Oh, and a fine-print copyright notice should be added to the picture ;)  If you don't have the graphics software to do it, let me know and I'd be happy to.  I may even render a better/bigger/uncompressed picture for you to use if ask nicely ;)
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
[mailto:david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au]
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 7:33 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .


Dear Folks -

David Smart wrote:
>Do you know how difficult it is for me to NOT
>print T-shirts of his stuff for personal use?

I'd been thinking about this for a while, too. A copyright question that I 
don't know the answer to is, "Is it 'fair use' if I put a Jesse picture on 
ONE T-Shirt for my own use?"

The alternative I thought of was asking Jesse for permission to make _two_ 
shirts, and sending him the second one as "payment". ;-)

Jesse, your thoughts?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 10:31:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Aug  7 09:31:19 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <20020807162904.96842.qmail@web20418.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com

>A Hollywood version of the change of command (and a damned good 
>performance by Humphrey Bogart) can be seen in THE CAINE MUTINY. A 

Funny that you should mention that film as I'm about to start eating
the strawberries I brought from home.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 10:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Aug  7 09:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: army usage
In-Reply-To: <159.121cd731.2a81f025@aol.com>
References: <159.121cd731.2a81f025@aol.com>
Message-ID: <p04330102b976fd8e5a14@[198.123.22.179]>

At 11:38 PM -0400 8/6/02, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
>  >>I really think you should do some research on the situation in
>  >>Afganisthan and how everything went down before blurting things out.
>  >>The main population of Afganisthan was opposed to the Taliban, which
>  >>is mainly from a tribe to the south west (I think).
>  >
>  >Tommy, you should do some research, too.  The Taliban was composed
>  >primarily of Pakistani and Saudi volunteers who called themselves
>  >"students" (of Islam).
>
>No.  To my knowledge, on that particular point he's right.  The Taliban
>stronghold is in the large and populous tribes of southern Afghanistan.

Except the Taliban had lost a lot of support even amongst the Pashtun.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 10:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Aug  7 09:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <200208071651.MGR02547@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Wait a minute.  If it's a rule of men, and not laws, it's 
entirely possible that a conquering force can arbitrarily 
dictate who gets shot without a trial just by saying so.

And the neat thing about it is that they don't have to resort 
to legal arguments, twisted vocabulary, or "kid' logic.
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 10:57:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Aug  7 09:57:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <200208071651.MGR02547@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028739389.7419.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> Wait a minute.  If it's a rule of men, and not laws, it's 
> entirely possible that a conquering force can arbitrarily 
> dictate who gets shot without a trial just by saying so.

Yeah.  That statement, to the degree it's true, is certainly one of the less
pleasant aspects of the 3I.  If you assume a real 'noblisse oblige' it can be a
positive effect, but in general it's born to be abused.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:01:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:01:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : OK, Now What?
Message-ID: <20020807165913.28112.qmail@web20417.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>

>There's been a lot of recent research into ball lightning. Maybe a
>militarily useful amount of plasma can be packaged in this way.

Fans of the Command and Conquer computer game will be familiar with
the tesla coil.  The Germans were working on a device like this
during WW2, but must not have gotten it operational.

--Glenn


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <20020807170626.8059.qmail@web20418.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>

>Actually, these men are NOT POWs. Technically we could have them 
>summarily executed, and it would be perfectly legal, though would
>upset alot of bleeding hearts. 
>
>Partisans, saboteurs, spies, and other irregulars, which certainly 
>includes terrorists, are not protected by either formal or informal
>Rules of War or the Geneva Convention.
>
>During WWII those captured were shot out of hand most of the time, 
>and it was not considered illegal. I can't recall a single German
>officer being tried for shooting such troops (as opposed to 

Yes, if you have the time and resources, it makes sense to
interrogate them first and shoot them later -- or, interrogate them
first, make some of the information public and attribute it to the
detainees, and return them to their homes, where their former
colleagues will kill them for snitching.  

Hmm ... I wonder if my current set of players (playing police
officers) will think of that approach to interrogation.  

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <3D506907.B582A8E7@mindspring.com>
References: <200208070000.MFJ02183@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <3D506907.B582A8E7@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m3wur2r423.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

alan spik <babyduck@mindspring.com> writes:
> 
> I don't think the Navy was that organized.  Read with amusement
> Doug's post about marching.  At every CoC I attended, we were given
> a time to be there.  We were expected to, and did meander our way
> over and meet the Chief who would tell us where to stand.  Usually a
> big gaggle(Pod?), then the Master Chief would come out and make
> everyone straiten up in ranks, and the show would get started about
> thirty minutes later.  I remember several people falling out.

That sounds like the Navy I know.  At the All-Academy Balls the West
Pointers (great giants of men) would stand there, stiff and formal,
when introduced.  The marine services (Navy, Coast Guards, Merchant
Marines) were much more relaxed--they're sailors, after all.  The Air
Force was an odd thing: some tried to be disciplined and failed, while
others didn't try at all.  In fact, there wasn't a year that one of
'em didn't show up in the wrong uniform--or showed up in civilian
clothes!  Pretty girls, though.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The only kind of freedom that the mob can imagine is freedom to annoy
and oppress its betters, and that is precisely the kind that we mainly
have.                                                   --H.L. Mencken

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V.I. Parviainen)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <m365ymsna4.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <3D5174AB.19191.F0AB707@localhost> <m365ymsna4.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020807171434.GA26680@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 09:26:27AM -0600, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> > At the current rates of extinction, somewhere between every six
> > months and two years (depending on which biologist you listen to) we
> > destroy one undiscovered medicine.
> 
> We destroy one natural source of an undiscovered medicine, perhaps.
> But we can synthesise just about anything these days.  

Well, yes, but wouldn't it be a bit easier to synthesise a compound if
you had it beforehand, instead of trying to duplicate the effects from
an old tale?

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:20:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:20:15 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Yankee Imperium
Message-ID: <20020807171936.65485.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>

>Clint Rynners wrote:
>>I do believe that if the USA mobilised fully, it could impose a
>>single world government, but I think the cost would be terrible.

>I'm taking this snippet completely out of context, but it got me 
>thinking ...sometimes...I wonder...then I realize he's right, the
>cost would be terrible....
>On the other hand, what would MY position be in this United States 

No one likes us 
I don't know why. 
We may not be perfect 
But heaven knows we try. 
But all around even our old friends put us down. 
Let's drop the big one and see what happens. 

We give them money 
But are they grateful? 
No they're spiteful 
And they're hateful. 
They don't respect us so let's surprise them; 
We'll drop the big one and pulverize them. 

Now Asia's crowded 
And Europe's too old. 
Africa's far too hot, 
And Canada's too cold. 
And South America stole our name. 
Let's drop the big one; there'll be no one left to blame us. 

Bridge: 
We'll save Australia; 
Don't wanna hurt no kangaroo. 
We'll build an all-American amusement park there; 
They've got surfing, too. 

Well, boom goes London, 
And boom Paris. 
More room for you 
And more room for me. 
And every city the whole world round 
Will just be another American town. 
Oh, how peaceful it'll be; 
We'll set everybody free; 
You'll have Japanese kimonos, baby, 
There'll be Italian shoes for me. 
They all hate us anyhow, 
So let's drop the big one now. 
Let's drop the big one now. 

Randy Newman, Political Science, from the album Sail Away, copied
from
http://www.leoslyrics.com/listlyrics.php?sid=%EEe%3Cy%A1P8%06

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020807171434.GA26680@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028741494.6212.ajackson@ping>

Mikko V.I. Parviainen writes:
> 
> Well, yes, but wouldn't it be a bit easier to synthesise a compound if
> you had it beforehand, instead of trying to duplicate the effects from
> an old tale?

Not exactly the right question.  The question is whether it's more efficient to
chase down old wives' tales, or to ignore the old wives' tales and attempt to
synthesize drugs based on prior understanding of what they ought to do.

The herbal movement notwithstanding, most pharmaceutical companies don't seem
to find chasing down old wives' tales, particularly extremely obscure old
wives' tales, to be really worth doing.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020807171434.GA26680@mimosa.hut.fi>
References: <3D5174AB.19191.F0AB707@localhost>
 <m365ymsna4.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
 <20020807171434.GA26680@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <m37kj2r2wf.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Mikko V.I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi> writes:
>
> > We destroy one natural source of an undiscovered medicine,
> > perhaps.  But we can synthesise just about anything these days.
> 
> Well, yes, but wouldn't it be a bit easier to synthesise a compound
> if you had it beforehand, instead of trying to duplicate the effects
> from an old tale?

But that's the point: as I understand it we've pretty well exhausted
the use of old tales and have moved on.  Not that I discount the
possibility that a remarkable new medicine could be lurking in the
rainforest; simply that I discount the probability.

As I understand it, science understand the effects of most substances:
the trick is to get them where they're needed and not where they're
not.  Which means designing a molecule which will let a drug slip
through one barrier but not another.  Which is tricky.

But, as I wrote, I could be awfully, woefully, terribly wrong.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Of course, if you're writing the code to control a cruise missile, you
may not actually need an explicit loop exit.  The loop will be
terminated automatically at the appropriate moment.
                         -Programming Perl, 3rd Ed.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <3D5050EB.9050601@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <003401c23d98$a70d8680$da29f7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020807102826.009e6ec0@mindspring.com>

At 03:42 PM 8/6/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Fred Ramen wrote:
>
>>I'm probably in a tiny minority here, but I remain unconvinced about
>>Arbellatra's strategic brilliance. Certainly her conduct of the 2FW does not
>>seem to have a personal stamp upon it the way Norris' saving strategy in the
>>5FW does. Canonical info on the war is spotty, of course, but it is
>>described as a "holding action" accompanied by commerce raids. When the
>>dreadnoughts are finally constructed, Arbellatra does not lead them on a
>>reconquest of the Marches, but merely forces a stalemate...and then promptly
>>concedes territory to the Zhodani, as well as separating several other
>>worlds from the Imperium.
>
>Probably this is because she knows she needs to a) bring an end ASAP to 
>the 2FW, and b) She needs those Dreadnaughts to end the rebellion, rather 
>than throwing them into a likely bloody fight to beat the Zhodani back.
>
>The Zho's, being in an expansionist mood at the moment, are only too happy 
>to help her achieve her goals.

I've always seen the Zhodani motivation in the Frontier Wars as keeping the 
Imperium at bay.  The 1st and 2nd wars removed the Imperium  from 
previously settled Zhodani territories and established a buffer zone.  The 
3 - 5 felt more like disruptive actions, designed to keep the Marches 
scared and on the defensive.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:55:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:55:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra (WAS: warship optimization in traveller
 CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208061330150.8694-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
References: <3.0.5.16.20020806113510.45efd91c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020807103324.009f4440@mindspring.com>

At 01:32 PM 8/6/02 -0700, you wrote:
>On Tue, 6 Aug 2002, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>
> > Good model.  I was thinking a bit of Hitler, personally.  Same kind of
> > personal magnetism.
>
>EEK!!!  But I like Arbellatra!

Hey, so do I!  But if you scrub off what he did wh\ith it, the fact remains 
that Hitler was one of the greatest orators in the 20th Century.  His 
magnetism and leadership ability took a tiny fringe party to power in ten 
years.  Picture that kind of ability in an Imperial Admiral, already known 
for her war-fighting ability.  Troops would flock to her.

> > She had a good line.  In this aspect, she's much like St. Jean d'Arc.  The
> > "Maid of Mora" driving to restore the Imperium!  She would find ready
> > converts in Deneb and Corridor. She probably played a different game with
> > the Vilani.  Promises of increased power in the court, culminating with her
> > son's marriage to a Vilani noblewoman in 679.  As she drew closer to
> > Capital, I'm sure that pretender fleets defected en masse rather than face
> > annihilation.
>
>I like Arbellatra la Pucelle much better than Arbellatra as Hitler.

Joan was more message and fire, Adolf sheer energy.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:55:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:55:46 2002
Subject: [TML] army usage
In-Reply-To: <a6.2a3d2ddd.2a81b626@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020807103810.009f6ec0@mindspring.com>

At 07:30 PM 8/6/02 -0400, you wrote:
>
>  >Seriously, from our point of view, Afghanistan was as close to a perfect
>  >situation as you can get.  All we had to do was provide air & logisitcal
>  >support, and the population in the are being attacked wasn't too thrilled
>  >with the current government.  They all aren't going to be that way.
>
>(Actually, it wasn't the population that opposed the Taliban.  it was the
>Northern Alliance.  The only reason the NA isn't pillaging the citizens like
>they were doing before the Taliban kicked them out is because they're
>preoccupied spending all that money that we bribed them with.  Sort of a
>Marshall Plan for bandit chiefs.  Seems to have worked so far.)

Really?  So all those people dancing in the streets, lining up to be 
shaved, digging up radios and TVs, kissing the feet of NA soldiers were 
mirages?

Do a little research, please.

>Well, one wouldn't think so, but as I understand it the plans for attacking
>Iraq involve a repeat of Afghanisan, using "rebels" in the north and south to
>do the actual fighting while we provide airstrikes.  Again:  "Army?  What
>Army?"  To my knowledge the army made not one twitch towards deployment
>during the Afghan battle -- either the authorities were supremely confident
>that they didn't need the army, or they had misgivings about deploying it in
>its present condition.  One wouldn't think Iraq would roll up so handily, but
>no-one thought the Taliban would roll up so fast either.  Apparently we're
>going to find out.

The 75th Regiment (Ranger), the 101st Airborne (Air Assault) and various 
Special Forces groups were all mobilized and on the ground.  Rangers were 
in Afghanistan before the main force of Taliban ceased fighting.  Troops 
from the 82nd Airborne and the 10th Mountain Divisions are still over there 
in the thick of things.

Not one twitch?  The 3rd Infantry Division (Mechanized) was put on 24-hour 
alert and ordered to start preparing for a possible deployment.  Putting 
15,000 men and all their vehicles (Bradleys, Abrams, MLRS) on warning is a 
bit more than a twitch.  I personally know several Army personnel who 
served and were shot at with great enthusiasm.

>On the other hand, if the latest briefs are any indication and we launch any
>military action against the house of Saud, then I think we're going to have
>to occupy everything from Libya to Jakarta.  That _will_ require an army, and
>I'm not sure we have one.

Sure we do!  We'll draft you.  :)

-- 

Douglas E. Berry   gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Cry "CHEEBLE!" and let slip the hamsters of war!



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:56:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:56:01 2002
Subject: [TML] OT:  December ARPC shoot
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15F3@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020807104836.009f6c50@mindspring.com>

At 04:58 PM 8/6/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Good to hear!  I'm desperately going to try to make it up again finally, 
>as the financial situation has improved a little.  Providing of course 
>that I can get a new roomate and don't have to keep paying twice the rent 
>like I am now :(  Also, I'm going to invite Erin again, and maybe I can 
>get my "girlfriend" to go too ;)

I too, shall try to make it up.  I'll be at OryCon the week before that (as 
Gaming GOH, if you can believe that, so unless you can give me rifde, no 
way I can afford to fly twice in that length of time.

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"I'm just trying to evict them. Frogs never pay."
                             - Rose Platt



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 12:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug  7 11:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <sd4ff8f8.002@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020807105540.009efb90@mindspring.com>

At 04:27 PM 8/6/02 -0400, you wrote:
>I think that because the Imperial Navy has such a long history, it
>probably has a lot of cool traditions. Anything that you threw in for
>color, like Marines in some traditional dress uniforms standing behind
>the "quarterdeck", the transfer of a baton, staff or whistle, maybe a
>reading of the ship's history...

Marines in their Dress Maroon, cutlasses raised in present arms.  By 
tradition, the junior Marine in the compliment steps forward, presents his 
cutlass hilt first to the new commander, and says "Sir!  The Marine Force 
is present and ready for you orders."  The new officer salutes the Marine, 
and gives the order "resume your stations."


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 12:17:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Aug  7 11:17:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Friday
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEFDILAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

I've tried to reach you by phone no answer.  
Please email me the information regarding when
Jonie (Joani, Joany (?)) wants to meet
and where too.

I've got to go out so email is a better bet.

________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 12:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Aug  7 11:22:03 2002
Subject: ignore RE: [TML] Friday
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEFDILAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEFEILAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

sorry wrong address, please ignore

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John-Martin
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 11:13 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Friday
Importance: High


I've tried to reach you by phone no answer.  
Please email me the information regarding when
Jonie (Joani, Joany (?)) wants to meet
and where too.

I've got to go out so email is a better bet.

________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 12:34:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Aug  7 11:34:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Three More Silly Questions
In-Reply-To: <m3wur2r423.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <3D506907.B582A8E7@mindspring.com>
 <200208070000.MFJ02183@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <3D506907.B582A8E7@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020807133436.00a777f0@minn.net>

At 11:07 AM 8/7/2002 -0600, Robert Uhl wrote:

>That sounds like the Navy I know.  At the All-Academy Balls the West
>Pointers (great giants of men) would stand there, stiff and formal,
>when introduced.  The marine services (Navy, Coast Guards, Merchant
>Marines) were much more relaxed--they're sailors, after all.  The Air
>Force was an odd thing: some tried to be disciplined and failed, while
>others didn't try at all.  In fact, there wasn't a year that one of
>'em didn't show up in the wrong uniform--or showed up in civilian
>clothes!  Pretty girls, though.

Okay.

Need some information about secondary-level military boarding schools (or
boarding schools in general).

Is there a tradition of senior students supervising (or oppressing) younger
students? If so, can you descibe the process? Off list please.

Where can I find UWP stats for the Uthe subsector? Canon if possible.


Les


==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 12:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Burns)
Date: Wed Aug  7 11:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
Message-ID: <20020807183944.5641.qmail@web10602.mail.yahoo.com>

Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 20:55:47 +1000
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>

Daniel Burns wrote:

> Unlike GT where it seems you can spot those nasty
(inflamatory reference deleted) at a few


"Argh! Don't say that word!"

Well, yeah, I was kinda playing fire there using
'that' as an example, but the flames are soooo pretty
;)


> parsecs while they are ramped up to speed,


"Sure, a decade or so later when the sensor
information gets to you.
It's poking along at light-speed, remember?   [:)] 

D'oh, must stop sleep-typing, I knew that of course
but my brain was awol :) "Would you believe... Our top
psychics are manning our sensor grid right now, and
can get a precognitive firing solution weeks or even
years before the target shows up?" ;)


Seriously Tim, thanks for being so kind to this
insomnia inebriated poster :) your courteousness is
noted.

Dan "far-trader" Burns



______________________________________________________________________ 
Post your ad for free now! http://personals.yahoo.ca

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 12:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed Aug  7 11:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D5A@USCHM203>

>John T. Kwon wrote:

>Wait a minute.  If it's a rule of men, and not laws, it's 
>entirely possible that a conquering force can arbitrarily 
>dictate who gets shot without a trial just by saying so.

>And the neat thing about it is that they don't have to resort 
>to legal arguments, twisted vocabulary, or "kid' logic.

One of the most frightening things I have ever read was a description, by a
fascist, though I can't remember if he was Italian or German, on the
absolute power of the state. I wish I had the exact quote, but it went
something like this:

"If the state says that 2 + 2 = 5, then it is so, and any citizen will tell
you it is so."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D5A@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <B976BD70.68DB2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/7/02 11:56 AM, Hurrel, Brian at brian.hurrel@eds.com wrote:

>=20
> "If the state says that 2 + 2 =3D 5, then it is so, and any citizen will te=
ll
> you it is so."

2 + 2 does equal 5, for very large values of 2.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>

Hello Folks,
   This is in response to Tim's comments regarding point defense lasers.  I 
have a few of them in all, so this is just one of many incoming 
designs.  All of them are TL 12 designs for use with GURPS 
TRAVELLER.  Please note that I was not happy with the "Logic" of having 
turret weapons who required that their "energy power plant be part of the 
main shipboard power plant.  Thus, *ALL* lasers designed by CGI include 
their own power generators.

TL 12
The SL328 is a 328.1 Mega-Joule laser designed to replace the standard 
405-Mj laser. It features an independent power supply such that a power 
loss within the ship does not mean the laser cannot fire. The SL328 comes 
with a battery pack that holds 328,100 kilowatt seconds of power along with 
a fusion generator that produces 14,578 Kilowatts. Total volume taken up by 
the SL328 is 490 cubic feet. Due to the size of this laser, it cannot be 
used in Streamlined turrets.


ROF:                            1/60
Half Damage Range:              2
Max Damage Range:               7
Accuracy:                       32
Damage:                 5d6 x 90 (2)
Spaces:                 .97
Mass in Tons:                   7.33
Cost in MCr.:                   .35
Rate of Fire Bonus:             +7


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:12:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:12:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D5C@USCHM203>

>Glenn M. Goffin wrote:

>Yes, if you have the time and resources, it makes sense to
>interrogate them first and shoot them later -- or, interrogate them
>first, make some of the information public and attribute it to the
>detainees, and return them to their homes, where their former
>colleagues will kill them for snitching

Great story from Vietnam. As usual can't remember the source:

A local village mayor was known to be a VC supporter, but no one could prove
it or do anything about it.
One day some American intelligence types, after a firefight, threw some
recovered VC bodies onto a jeep and drove into the village. They drove up to
the mayor's house.
Now, you have to picture this. The VC bodies are in full view of everyone in
the village.
As far as I know, the mayor did not speak English, and the Americans did not
speak Vietnamese.
The Americans smiled, clapped the horrified mayor on the back, and unloaded
gifts of food, a radio, bundles of cash, etcetera, and drove off.
Three guesses on how long the mayor lived after that?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807151954.024d5a80@mail.buffnet.net>

The SL47 laser system was designed mainly as a trinary weapon system in 
that it works best when used in groups of three. CDI is firmly committed to 
the idea of Accuracy through Firepower, and as such, tends to design it's 
lasers with an eye towards getting the most performance with higher rates 
of fire. The SL47 is designed mainly as a compromise between point defense 
and offense. It will affect any ship who has a DR rating of 500 or less, 
better than 50% of the time. Couple this with the SL47's RoF accuracy, and 
targets out to 30,000 miles away can be affected with a decent chance of 
success. Using a well trained gunner, targets with a displacement size of 
10 tons have been hit 4.6% of the time using a 20 minute firing duration. 
Statistics use as a baseline, a Mark IV Target program. Using a top of the 
line TL11 target computer, running a MarkXII target program, the success 
rate changed from 4.6% success rate to a 62.5% success rate. When used in a 
triple turret, using the standard MarkIV target program, the SL47 changed 
from a 4.6% success rate to a 25.9% success rate.
The SL47 uses a self contained power generator rated at 2,088 Kilowatts, 
and uses a battery rated at 125,302 Kilowatt seconds. Empty volume left 
over after being used in a Standard turret is 1.5 cubic feet in a 
streamlined turret, or 101.5 cubic feet in a non-streamlined turret.

ROF:				10/60
Half Damage Range:		1
Max Damage Range:		3
Accuracy:			30
Damage:			5d6 x 34(2)
Spaces:			.8
Mass in Tons:			3.79
Cost in MCr.:			.19
Rate of Fire Bonus:		+10


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807152459.024ebdf0@mail.buffnet.net>

TL 12
The SL828 is a super laser designed to use all three spaces in an 
unstreamlined turret. Like all of the other SL series lasers, it contains 
its own self contained fusion power plant. It uses a 2,207,448 kilowatt 
second battery, and the power plant produces 36,790 kilowatts of energy. 
Total volume used is 1,495 cubic feet, leaving 5 cubic feet of volume in a 
standard Imperial turret. Due to its higher rate of fire, along with its 
superior penetration value - the SL828 makes for a heavy hitting weapon 
system. The SL828 cannot be used in unstreamlined turrets.



ROF:                            2/60
Half Damage Range:              4
Max Damage Range:               11
Accuracy:                       33
Damage:                 5d6 x 143(2)
Spaces:                 2.99
Mass in Tons:                   20.65
Cost in MCr.:                   .98
Rate of Fire Bonus:             +8


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:19:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:19:27 2002
Subject: [TML] army usage
Message-ID: <89.1bf4851a.2a82cc79@aol.com>

In a message dated 07/08/02 00:33:50 GMT Daylight Time, Flykiller@aol.com 
writes:


On the other hand, if the latest briefs are any indication and we launch any 
military action against the house of Saud, then I think we're going to have 
to occupy everything from Libya to Jakarta.  That _will_ require an army, and 

I'm not sure we have one.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I've been really busy at work recently but I wasn't aware that the US planned 
to invade Saudi Arabia, where, the last time I looked the House of Saud were 
in charge.

The last time Saddam Hussein, leader of Iraq and head of the Ba'ath party, 
was the target.

Have things changed and has the US decided to after the single biggest source 
of  al-Qaida funding?

Charles

I addressed some cheerful chit-chat at the man opposite but was rewarded with 
grunt. I tried the man next to me but he just looked at the gentleman I had 
tried first and said "Do you know what he's talking about?" At this point I 
realised I was getting out my depth but the Dean stepped in and saved me, "Oh 
don't worry about it" he said, "They're mathematicians - we never talk to 
them."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807152728.024eb0f0@mail.buffnet.net>

TL 12
The SL948 was designed to be the hardest hitting laser that CDI could 
manufacture and still retain the design philosophy of self-contained power 
plants for the laser. While it has similar statistics to the SL828, it 
achieves an additional 7% damage at the expense of a lessor accuracy via 
firepower. This system is actually cheaper to purchase than is the SL828. 
Total volume used is 1188.5 cubic feet. When used in a streamlined turret, 
11.5 cubic feet remain unused. When used in a non-streamlined turret, 
leftover volume is 311.5 cubic feet.
The SL948 uses a battery rated at 2,527,368 kilowatt seconds, and uses a 
fusion power plant rated at 42,123 Kilowatts.



ROF:                            1/60
Half Damage Range:              4
Max Damage Range:               12
Accuracy:                       34
Damage:                 5d6 x 153(2)
Spaces:                 2.38
Mass in Tons:                   19.29
Cost in MCr.:                   .91
Rate of Fire Bonus:             +7


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807153004.00a3a9d0@mail.buffnet.net>

The SL90 system, using a 239,940 kilowatt second battery, enjoys the power 
of a 15,996 kilowatt fusion power plant. Like some of the other SL series 
lasers, this laser is designed to fit into streamlined turrets. It has a 
rate of fire that is 4 times that of a Standard 405-Mj laser, and as such, 
enjoys popularity as both as a point defense system, along with that of a 
moderate offensive system. When used in a streamlined turret, excess space 
is 35 cubic feet, or 135 in a non-streamlined turret.


ROF:                            4/60
Half Damage Range:              1
Max Damage Range:               4
Accuracy:                       31
Damage:                 5d6 x 47(2)
Spaces:                 .73
Mass in Tons:                   3.94
Cost in MCr.:                   .20
Rate of Fire Bonus:             +9


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <50.f92cdfb.2a82cde6@aol.com>

In a message dated 07/08/02 00:58:22 GMT Daylight Time, jtkwon@jtkgroup.com 
writes:


Don't forget - the outgoing commander has to do an inventory 
with the new commander, and the new commander gets to sign 
for the ship and all of the equipment in it.


Ohhh...the Vilani would love that bit.

Charles

I addressed some cheerful chit-chat at the man opposite but was rewarded with 
grunt. I tried the man next to me but he just looked at the gentleman I had 
tried first and said "Do you know what he's talking about?" At this point I 
realised I was getting out my depth but the Dean stepped in and saved me, "Oh 
don't worry about it" he said, "They're mathematicians - we never talk to 
them."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807153248.00a37b70@mail.buffnet.net>

The SL136 series laser uses 363,376 kilowatt second power storage unit, and 
is attached to a fusion power plant generating 24,225 kilowatts of power. 
Unusable in a streamlined turret, this laser is the upgraded SL90 with 
respect towards use in non-streamlined turrets. It boasts a 23% increase in 
penetration power over the SL90. Total volume used in turret is 490 cubic 
feet, leaving 10 cubic feet as empty space.
RoF 1/2 Damage Max Damage Acc Damage
range range
4/60 2 5 31 5d6 x 58(2)
Spaces Mass Cost RoF
in tons in MCr. bonus
.98 5.45 .2682 +6

ROF:                            4/60
Half Damage Range:              2
Max Damage Range:               5
Accuracy:                       31
Damage:                 5d6 x 58(2)
Spaces:                 .98
Mass in Tons:                   5.45
Cost in MCr.:                   .27
Rate of Fire Bonus:             +9


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:29:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:29:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807153547.00a32530@mail.buffnet.net>

Resent as the previous version of this I sent included the first edition 
data as opposed to second edition data (sorry)

The SL136 series laser uses 363,376 kilowatt second power storage unit, and 
is attached to a fusion power plant generating 24,225 kilowatts of power. 
Unusable in a streamlined turret, this laser is the upgraded SL90 with 
respect towards use in non-streamlined turrets. It boasts a 23% increase in 
penetration power over the SL90. Total volume used in turret is 490 cubic 
feet, leaving 10 cubic feet as empty space.


ROF:				4/60
Half Damage Range:		2
Max Damage Range:		5
Accuracy:			31
Damage:			5d6 x 58(2)
Spaces:			.98
Mass in Tons:			5.45
Cost in MCr.:			.27
Rate of Fire Bonus:		+9


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:29:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:29:30 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <20020807020627.6743406c80f7471790ae6758c061e780.in@keywest.kennett.net>
References: <20020807020627.6743406c80f7471790ae6758c061e780.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <3d51707a.2567266@post.demon.co.uk>

cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng) writes:

>Thanks.  Anybody can provide with how the Royal Navy does it?  Has the =
USN
>changed anything from the afore-explained procedure?=20

I always liked David Weber's change of command ceremonies in the Honor
Harrington books, but I don't know whether they're based on genuine
Napoleonic-era Royal Navy practice or just something DW made up...

(in brief, the new Captain is welcomed on board the ship as a visiting
senior officer, is escorted to the bridge, makes an all-hands
announcement in which (s)he reads aloud the written orders from the
Admiralty directing him/her "To proceed aboard Her Majesty's Starship
<Foo>, there to take upon yourself the duties and responsibilities of
commanding officer in the service of the Crown"; after which the new
Captain formally tells the previous (acting) commander "I assume
command".)

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807153712.00a315d0@mail.buffnet.net>

The SL23 is primarily a point defense laser. Imperial authorities have 
given CDI their coveted Excellence of Design award for this point defense 
laser. Also, the IMD has predicted that any civilian ship owner who puts in 
for a permit to install SL23's in their ship - will have an easier time of 
it. Mark Shuugaash, Sector head for the IMD of the Spinward Marches has 
informed all IMD departments that ships requesting SL23 permits are to be 
given preferential treatment with respect towards application processing 
time. After all, quoted Mark Shuugaash, how many would be pirates are going 
to use the low damaging power of the SL23 to good effect?
The SL23 uses a battery rated at 23,400 kilowatt seconds, and recharges its 
rapid fire laser by means of a 20,795 kilowatt fusion power plant. Unlike 
its faster firing cousin, the SL23a, this SL23 will fit into streamlined 
turrets. Excess space after installation in a Streamlined turret is 15 
cubic feet.


ROF:				20/60
Half Damage Range:		1
Max Damage Range:		2
Accuracy:			29
Damage:			5d6 x 24(2)
Spaces:			.77
Mass in Tons:			3.43
Cost in MCr.:			.17
Rate of Fire Bonus:		+12


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:34:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:34:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
Message-ID: <3D5175D5.D8DEC9AF@ameritech.net>

Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 09:10:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>

> David Shayne writes:
>
>> Standard densities. With Earth = 1. Doesn't look so horibly wrong 
>> now does it? 
>
> Ok, that's not as bad.  

Let me take a moment here to appologize for the tone of theat last post.
I really should have performed a snarkectomy on it before I sent it out.

Sorry,

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807154015.00a37d60@mail.buffnet.net>

Like the SL23, the SL23a is designed as a point defense system. Because 
this system can only be used in unstreamlined turrets, CDI has been able to 
increase its firepower abilities from that of 1 shot per minute, to 1 shot 
per 40 seconds. Consequently, this laser is better suited for tackling the 
tough job of point defense against incoming missiles than its cousin, the 
SL23.
The SL23a still uses the 62,384 kilowatt second battery that the SL23 uses, 
but instead, uses a 31,192 kilowatt fusion power plant.


ROF:				1.33
Half Damage Range:		1
Max Damage Range:		2
Accuracy:			29
Damage:			5d6 x 24(2)
Spaces:			1
Mass in Tons:			4.47
Cost in MCr.:			.23
Rate of Fire Bonus:		+13


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 14:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Aug  7 13:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
References: <3D5174AB.19191.F0AB707@localhost> <m365ymsna4.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> <20020807171434.GA26680@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <3D517EAA.9080504@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Mikko V.I. Parviainen wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 09:26:27AM -0600, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> 
>>>At the current rates of extinction, somewhere between every six
>>>months and two years (depending on which biologist you listen to) we
>>>destroy one undiscovered medicine.
>>
>>We destroy one natural source of an undiscovered medicine, perhaps.
>>But we can synthesise just about anything these days.  
> 
> 
> Well, yes, but wouldn't it be a bit easier to synthesise a compound if
> you had it beforehand, instead of trying to duplicate the effects from
> an old tale?
> 

Also, anyone who thinks 'we can synthesize just about anything these 
days' is not a chemist or biochemist.

Trsut me, some of the natural compounds we're finding that have 
medicinal qualities are utter whirling b*tches to synthesize in any 
quantity, *let alone* synthesize on industrial scales economically.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 14:11:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Aug  7 13:11:28 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
References: <ML-2.3.1028741494.6212.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3D517A60.60801@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Mikko V.I. Parviainen writes:
> 
>>Well, yes, but wouldn't it be a bit easier to synthesise a compound if
>>you had it beforehand, instead of trying to duplicate the effects from
>>an old tale?
> 
> 
> Not exactly the right question.  The question is whether it's more efficient to
> chase down old wives' tales, or to ignore the old wives' tales and attempt to
> synthesize drugs based on prior understanding of what they ought to do.
> 
> The herbal movement notwithstanding, most pharmaceutical companies don't seem
> to find chasing down old wives' tales, particularly extremely obscure old
> wives' tales, to be really worth doing.


ROFL!!!! We have one researcher here at the College who has a 
multimillion dollar grant, with support from NIH and a bunch of 
Pharmaceutical companies looking into the medicinal properties of arid 
lands plants.

The pharmaceutical companies are funding this research to the tunes of 
*billions* of dollars a year.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs





From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 14:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Wed Aug  7 13:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <001a01c23e54$52a53950$0b01a8c0@duck>

On Behalf Of Hal
> Hello Folks,
>    This is in response to Tim's comments regarding point defense lasers.
I
> have a few of them in all, so this is just one of many incoming
> designs.  All of them are TL 12 designs for use with GURPS
> TRAVELLER.  Please note that I was not happy with the "Logic" of having
> turret weapons who required that their "energy power plant be part of the
> main shipboard power plant.  Thus, *ALL* lasers designed by CGI include
> their own power generators.

I hope you don't mind, but this brings up a couple of questions from a GT
neophyte.  Please understand that I only have GT, not VE2 or GS3.

- What are "streamlined" and "unstreamlines" turrets?  In the GT rules
  there are just "turrets".  What is the difference?

- Do you have any TL 10 designs.  I am curious as the the relative use
  of such weapons.

Finally, I also have an unrelated questions I hope you could answer:

- Are standard GT TL10 lasers 250MJ or 360MJ?  The rules are contradictory
  on the issue.

Thanks.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 14:55:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Wed Aug  7 13:55:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re: army usage
In-Reply-To: <20020807002817.99096.qmail@web20417.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0208072247420.363897-100000@svati>

On Tue, 6 Aug 2002, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:

>Tommy, you should do some research, too.  The Taliban was composed
>primarily of Pakistani and Saudi volunteers who called themselves
>"students" (of Islam).  Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, with the knowledge
>if not the support of the United States government, formed and
>trained the Taliban and sent them to end the civil war in
>Afghanistan, which they did.  The peace they imposed was in many ways
>worse than the war.

This is true and not contrary to what I said at all. I just pointed out
that the Taliban was almost universially hated and feared inside of
Afghanistan, and that they had control over almost all of the land, except
for the small area controled by the NA. And the NA was loosing quickly.

My point was like yours that the Americans did a good job by ousting the
Taliban and that the Northern Alliance didn't have to be bribed to let
the US help them. They were in enough trouble to cheer loudly when the
US did help.

No controversy here.

ObTrav: How does the citizens of a world view interference into their
local affairs by the Imperium? I guess that it is takes a wide range
of sentiments, but that most worlds really want to settle their issues
wiyhout the IMperium medeling. Even if it means a nuclear war.

Tommy Grav
-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 14:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dominic Mooney)
Date: Wed Aug  7 13:57:03 2002
Subject: BITS - Sneak Preview was  RE: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <AC8B99B8-AA47-11D6-8866-0003930B3ACE@cybergoths.u-net.com>

> "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

> At 9:43 AM -0700 8/6/02, DeGraff, Jesse wrote:
> What about artists?  ;)
> Jesse
> Do you have any experience?  :-)


<Delurk>

If you're interested, look at Jesse's work at

http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/ghalalk_and_pf_sloan.
htm

which shows some of the models he's been building for the forthcoming BITS 
starship miniatures combat game 'Power Projection'.

By forthcoming, we are hoping for the lite rules (escorts and destroyers - 
non capital ships) at GenCon UK and the full rules before Christmas.

Dom
BITS Webmaster...

"Power Projection - 'It's all about going to other people's planets and 
making *them* do what *we* want".

--------dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia,
there's still the notion that the future is
something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." Niven/Pournelle/Flynn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 15:20:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Aug  7 14:20:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Interference
Message-ID: <200208072119.MGZ05733@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

In the Broadsword adventure, there seems to be little enough 
Imperial interference on Garda-Vilis, but more than enough 
Sword World and Zhodani interefence.

Then again, this is a border area, and a backwater border 
area at that.

The local freedom fighters seem to be pro-Imperial - the 
Tanoose Freedom League has killed Ine Givar who tried to 
recruit them.  It's almost as if the people on Garda-Vilis 
think they would get a better shake with direct Imperial 
interference than by having Vilis rule them from afar.

Then again, the Imperium doesn't seem to be in the game of 
nation building, or freedom fighting, or dispensing democracy 
at the drop of a hat.  They seem to be more interested in 
maintaining a Naval Base at Frenzie.

Gee, are there any parallels between Frenzie and Diego Garcia?
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 15:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Aug  7 14:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020807102826.009e6ec0@mindspring.com>
References: <3D5050EB.9050601@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3D523A3D.13247.2FE3DA@localhost>

On 7 Aug 2002 at 10:30, Douglas Berry wrote:

> I've always seen the Zhodani motivation in the Frontier Wars as keeping the 
> Imperium at bay.  The 1st and 2nd wars removed the Imperium  from 
> previously settled Zhodani territories and established a buffer zone.  The 
> 3 - 5 felt more like disruptive actions, designed to keep the Marches 
> scared and on the defensive.

I'm certain that this is the case, as given the poor Imperial showing 
up until the FFW if the Zho's had really wanted to come in and take the 
SM they'd probably not have been stopped short of Corridor.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 15:48:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 14:48:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <001a01c23e54$52a53950$0b01a8c0@duck>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807172615.02726970@mail.buffnet.net>

Hello Mike,


>I hope you don't mind, but this brings up a couple of questions from a GT
>neophyte.  Please understand that I only have GT, not VE2 or GS3.
>
>- What are "streamlined" and "unstreamlines" turrets?  In the GT rules
>   there are just "turrets".  What is the difference?

At the time I wrote all this, GURPS TRAVELLER was just recently released 
and there was nothing else printed.  I had a few issues with what had been 
written overall.  Since then, I've resolved those issues with respect 
towards streamlined and un-streamlined vessels.  In short?  Ignore the 
concept of Streamlined versus Un-streamlined turrets ;)



>- Do you have any TL 10 designs.  I am curious as the the relative use
>   of such weapons.

I had not worked on any TL10 designs.  At the time, I had intended to, but 
I never got around to it.


>Finally, I also have an unrelated questions I hope you could answer:
>
>- Are standard GT TL10 lasers 250MJ or 360MJ?  The rules are contradictory
>   on the issue.

Interesting ;)

I will have to take the time out and try to figure out which it is supposed 
to be.  As it stands now, I have to take the time to figure out how I set 
up my BEAM WEAPONS TL12 spread sheet so I can reproduce all the date I 
created for my web site lo those many years back.  When did Traveller first 
come out in GURPS anyhow, 1998?  '99?  Hmmmm.

For what it is worth?  I've noted that the rates of fire for lasers are 
limited by the fact the energy that goes into charging the "batteries" or 
capacitors are less than what they could be.  Someone who rerouts ship's 
manuever drive energy towards lasers can increase the rate of fire to 
extremely high rates of fire.

                   Hal


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 16:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dooley, Ryan)
Date: Wed Aug  7 15:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Probably a FAQ, but...
Message-ID: <C0B11D0413A966428A8FAAED4B198CA46AC8BE@col-mailnode03.col.missouri.edu>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C23E4B.90149D70
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Howdy,

=20

I don't know if this has been discussed to death or not yet but since
I've not seen traffic on the topic as of late, anybody know the word on
T5?

=20

Cheers,

            Ryan


------_=_NextPart_001_01C23E4B.90149D70
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	charset="us-ascii"
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<html>

<head>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">


<meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 10 (filtered)">

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<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Howdy,</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I don&#8217;t know if this has been discussed to =
death or
not yet but since I&#8217;ve not seen traffic on the topic as of late, =
anybody
know the word on T5?</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Cheers,</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp; Ryan</span></font></p>

</div>

</body>

</html>
=00
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 16:08:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug  7 15:08:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Spam Spam Spam Spam...
Message-ID: <11b.147a05c3.2a82e8cc@cs.com>

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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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In a message dated 8/7/02 3:53:47 AM Central Daylight Time, 
jenry023@student.liu.se writes:


> Come to think of it, most products that come from special places are not 
> considered luxuries there, but they probably are at other locations.
> 
> Groat Musk Perfume would be a nasty thing to hit the PCs with...  ;-)
> 
> * Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
> 

More like, "Groat Musk Perfume would be a nasty thing to suffer a container 
breach while in the PC's cargo hold..." Especially in a S-class Scout/Courier.

Simon Jester
-------------------
Vikings? There ain't no vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was 
burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway. That's 
our story and we're sticking to it.



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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 8/7/02 3:53:47 AM Central Daylight Time, jenry023@student.liu.se writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Come to think of it, most products that come from special places are not considered luxuries there, but they probably are at other locations.
<BR>
<BR>Groat Musk Perfume would be a nasty thing to hit the PCs with... &nbsp;;-)
<BR>
<BR>* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>More like, "Groat Musk Perfume would be a nasty thing to suffer a container breach while in the PC's cargo hold..." Especially in a S-class Scout/Courier.
<BR>
<BR>Simon Jester
<BR>-------------------
<BR>Vikings? There ain't no vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway. That's our story and we're sticking to it.
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 16:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Wed Aug  7 15:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807172615.02726970@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <001b01c23e5e$c9983a80$0b01a8c0@duck>

On Behalf Of Hal
> >- Do you have any TL 10 designs.  I am curious as the the relative use
> >   of such weapons.
>
> I had not worked on any TL10 designs.  At the time, I had intended to, but
> I never got around to it.

The reason I ask is that I have lately gotten into the kick of just ignoring
GTL12/TTL15 and seeing what I can get at "medium" TLs like GTL10/TTL12.  I
do wish there were GTL9 modules published somewhere.  I *really* want to be
able to make some GTL9 ships.

> >Finally, I also have an unrelated questions I hope you could answer:
> >
> >- Are standard GT TL10 lasers 250MJ or 360MJ?  The rules are
contradictory
> >   on the issue.
>
> Interesting ;)

>From what I can see (I own GT, BtC and AR1) GT 1e used 360MJ for TL10, but
it was changed to 250MJ in GT 2e.  Unfortunately all modules made pre-2e
(like AR1) still refer to 360MJ, and even some things in GT 2e still refer
to 360MJ.

I do admit I don't even know for sure that they made the change.  I am
just assuming it from the contradictory references.  That is why I was
asking about the TL10 lasers you played with.  Assuming I am correct, I
guess someone figured out that a 360MJ laser at TL10 ended up being too
big, so it was adjusted down.

Anyway, thanks for the answers.  I do appreciate it.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 16:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Aug  7 15:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <001b01c23e5e$c9983a80$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028758470.4086.ajackson@ping>

Mike West writes:
> I do admit I don't even know for sure that they made the change.  I am
> just assuming it from the contradictory references.

Mostly, the change is because it was determined that the 360MJ laser takes up
more than 500 cf.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 16:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Aug  7 15:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Probably a FAQ, but...
In-Reply-To: <C0B11D0413A966428A8FAAED4B198CA46AC8BE@col-mailnode03.col.missouri.edu>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028758541.2749.ajackson@ping>

Dooley, Ryan writes:
> 
> I don't know if this has been discussed to death or not yet but since
> I've not seen traffic on the topic as of late, anybody know the word on
> T5?

I don't think there's been official word, but I wouldn't hold your breath.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 16:17:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug  7 15:17:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
In-Reply-To: <20020807183944.5641.qmail@web10602.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020807183944.5641.qmail@web10602.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020808081638.A491@freeman.little-possums.net>

Daniel Burns wrote:
> "Would you believe... Our top psychics are manning our sensor grid
> right now, and can get a precognitive firing solution weeks or even
> years before the target shows up?" ;)

Of course I do.  That's just one of many ways in which the Consulate
protects its proles :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 16:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug  7 15:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807154015.00a37d60@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net> <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com> <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com> <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net> <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net> <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20020807154015.00a37d60@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020808082655.B491@freeman.little-possums.net>

Hal wrote:
> The SL23a still uses the 62,384 kilowatt second battery that the SL23 uses, 
> but instead, uses a 31,192 kilowatt fusion power plant.

Just a question; how do you get a RoF of 1.33 when the pwoer plant
takes 2 seconds to recharge the energy banks?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 16:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug  7 15:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807172615.02726970@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net> <001a01c23e54$52a53950$0b01a8c0@duck> <5.0.2.1.2.20020807172615.02726970@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020808085800.C491@freeman.little-possums.net>

Hal wrote:
> For what it is worth?  I've noted that the rates of fire for lasers are 
> limited by the fact the energy that goes into charging the "batteries" or 
> capacitors are less than what they could be.

This is a problem with all G:Traveller modular designs.  In normal
space, you can always use the power allocated in design to maintaining
the jump field.  This is at least 200 kW/dton.


>  Someone who rerouts ship's manuever drive energy towards lasers can
> increase the rate of fire to extremely high rates of fire.

If the average density of starships is about 4 tonnes per dton, then
each gee of thrust reduction diverts 400 kW/dton to other systems.
This will benefit a lightly-armed ship.  A heavily armed ship will
hardly notice, since such a ship already has a far higher power
requirement for weapons than for maneuver drives.

Now, diverting power from bay weapons or spinal mounts to turrets is
quite a different story.  That might be a good idea in a point-defense
situation.  It might raise the RoF by a factor of thirty in extreme
cases, for a +5 RoF bonus.  It's a pity that RoF doesn't actually do
much :/


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 17:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 16:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <20020808082655.B491@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807154015.00a37d60@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020807154015.00a37d60@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807191227.027257b0@mail.buffnet.net>

At 08:26 AM 08/08/2002 +1000, you wrote:
>Hal wrote:
> > The SL23a still uses the 62,384 kilowatt second battery that the SL23 
> uses,
> > but instead, uses a 31,192 kilowatt fusion power plant.
>
>Just a question; how do you get a RoF of 1.33 when the pwoer plant
>takes 2 seconds to recharge the energy banks?

I goofed - I read it wrong and was in a hurry to transscribe the 
information into email from my old HTML...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 17:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Aug  7 16:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <OFDEC7001F.B4AA8375-ON42256C0E.001D1133@ko.com>
References: <OFDEC7001F.B4AA8375-ON42256C0E.001D1133@ko.com>
Message-ID: <p04330109b977629d272b@[198.123.22.179]>

>Sufficiently advanced technology makes life on an airless
>rockball possible - why would such a species need to preserve
>its wildlife?

Well, if we assume that the airless rockball is totally self 
suficient (not just sufficient over a timescale of week or months) I 
see two reasons...

1) Economics, a natural ecosystem maintains itself (and hence is a 
lot cheaper).
2) Comfort, just because the rockball is livable, doesn't mean it 
produces everything people would want.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 19:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Aug  7 18:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] System Gen Help
In-Reply-To: <c9.261a11c4.2a7d38e2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20807.181758.5x2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> If a captured planet is in a gas giant's orbit though then it should
> become a moon or impact the gas giant eventually, or perhaps
> eventually be thrown out of orbit away from or towards the star.

It could wind up in a stable relationship with the GG. 

If it's sufficiently smaller than the GG (1/80th?) it could be stable
at one of the Trojan points.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 19:26:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Aug  7 18:26:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
In-Reply-To: <200208051642.JAA31293@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <20807.182739.9w7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>Lowest GG density = .1
>>Average GG density ~= .21
>>Highest GG density = .3
>
> Assuming that's g/cc, that's horribly wrong. Saturn has a density of 0.69
> and is probably near the low end of possible densities; all of the other
> gas giants have densities between 1 and 2.  A large gas giant, at 4x
> jupiter mass and about the same diameter, would be as dense as the earth.

Densities are likely in units such the Earth has a density of 1.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 19:44:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Aug  7 18:44:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Briefing Depicted Saudis as Enemies (washingtonpost.com)
In-Reply-To: <3D51CB90.53932375@minn.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020807204455.00a7f6f0@minn.net>


Found this article via the www.FrontPageMag.com website:

 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47913-2002Aug5.html

Obtrav: What if an allied state in the Vargr Extents acts against Imperial
interests?

(Hmmm...there's an idea for my serial space opera project...)


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 19:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Hamill)
Date: Wed Aug  7 18:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] GTS-the progrem
In-Reply-To: <20020807183403.21704.67892.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020808015159.46560.qmail@web21505.mail.yahoo.com>


> 
> Message: 1
> From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] GTS-the program
> Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 16:10:33 +0000
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> From: John Hamill <jwdh71@yahoo.com>
> 
>      "I have a chance to get a two-part
> GURPS:Traveller game together, 
> during a weekend mini-con at the local game store,
> and I really need a 
> couple of ships fast. Well, faster than I can do
> them by hand, anyway."
> 
> 
> Mr. Hamill,
> 
>      IIRC, the BITS website has a wonderful,
> massive, and free PDF download 
> chocked full of G:T ships.  Al TLs, all races, all
> functions too.  Why build 
> ships when someone else has done the work for you
> already?  :)
>      A free PDF reader can be downloaded at the
> Adobe webiste too.
>      Google should point you to both locations.
> 
> 
>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen

A great idea sir, but unfortunately just any old ships
won't do. See I'm running an old adventure from MT
days, in a non-canon universe, using GURPS: Traveller
(as that's what I have on hand, not wanting to get my
old LBB set out of storage and not having mt MT books
anymore. I need to redesign for G:T a 10,000 dton,
United States of America class frontier patrol
cruiser, the Republica Federal de Mexico, it's small
craft and fighters, as well as the Terran
Confederation Marines landers. As you can tell, it
will be an active duty adventure, and the specific
adventure will be mostly slated for ground combat,
however, there is some chance of space action, and I
want to be prepared for it. Thanks for the heads up
though, I will be looking for that at the nearest
opportunity.

Interestingly, this campaign came to mind when the
list was discussing rules changes. We used a few
(including the no-kill during char gen), but the
biggest one was to fiddle with the fuel for jumps.
When I started playing the original LBB's, many of my
fellow players were either ex-military, current
college students, or both. several of the motre
scientific ones complained about the extreme amounts
of fuel used for jump, and pointed out that the ship
would melt if it tried to fuse even a portion of that
amount before or during a jump. The GM at the time
agreed with him, and didn't like the fuel for jump
situation anyway (he was trying to simulate a universe
from a novel, and didn't use the OTU), so he simply
dispensed with fuel requirements for the jump drive.
All you had to do was have a power plant the same size
or larger than your jump drive, and thats all. It
definitely chaqnged the game from what it was designed
as, and made tactics for intersteller war completely
different than in the normal Traveller universe. OTOH,
you could actually see freighters, especially small
ones, begin to make a profit, even from regular cargo.
Others in the group made up new combat rules, both for
space and ground combat, and we used those instead. I
gamed with them for several years, but moved away
eventually. 
But I still messed around with the rules, and when I
had another group of victi...er, players, I started a
non-canon game with them. I set it in a future Terran
Confederation, sort of a ramped up UN in space, and
the best campaign we had was an active duty campaign,
aboard the above frontier patrol cruiser. I did use
jump fuel, but cut the requirement to a tenth of
canon. However I still designed ships the book way, so
your average ship, at least the military and scout
ships, had a 10 jump fuel reserve. So your type S
scout/courier could do 10 jump 2's before needing to
be refueled. Or for civilian vessels, they could carry
less fuel and add cargo space. It worked out well for
this campaign, since they were supposed to patrol the
frontier of the Confederation, and also protect and
aid any colonies in their area, it allowed for a much
greater range for their ship. It also allowed me to
effectively cut the PC's off from higher authority,
and made them responsible for whatever happened on
their watch. It was great watching them try to come up
with ways to explain their actions to command (in the
reports which I made them write up). A great campaign
it was.
So I'm going to try a simple one-shot (well, actually
a two part one-shot) to see if I can't get my local
group into our Great Game, we'll see how it goes.

John
jwdh71@yahoo.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 19:53:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mosaic Tapestry)
Date: Wed Aug  7 18:53:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Probably a FAQ, but...
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1028758541.2749.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <001001c23e7e$2acd8a70$2f7de40c@loki>

I'd enquire here:

http://www.travellerrpg.com/cgi-bin/Trav/CotI/Discuss/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb
=forum;f=11


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 22:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug  7 21:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] John Beats The Dead Horse of Imperial Rules Of War...
Message-ID: <OFB4C576D0.DD4913B9-ONCA256C0F.00177D95@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

John wrote:
>The player characters in any Traveller party would often fall 
>into the category of illegal combatant.  They aren't wearing 
>a uniform, they don't belong to an official army, and aren't 
>part of an officially responsible chain of command.  In a war 
>zone, if they were caught fighting an official military 
>force, and they surrendered, would they be considered 
>prisoners of war, or would they be shot out of hand after the 
>local Imperial Marine lieutenant heard his platoon sergeant's 
>report?

I believe that mercenaries, available and used in the standard way that 
Trav says they are used, would only be possible under the canonical "Rules 
of War" scheme. That is, with merc troops being recognised as legitimate 
forces, with repatriation bonds, etc. Exactly what David Drake writes 
about - I'm sure he must have cribbed a bit from Traveller.

In this situation, the PCs will be OK as long as they are recognised as 
being part of a legitimate merc unit. One of the fun things I forced my 
players to do was to apply for a company-sized merc licence...

Have a look under Tavonni Specialties ==> Soldiers of Fortune ==> Adifux Inc LIC Pty Ltd.  ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 22:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug  7 21:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: MT Vehicles
Message-ID: <OFC8A19485.1B58CE65-ONCA256C0F.001962BE@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Peter said:
>I'm in the process of detailing out the armed forces  of  Efate's
>Regular Army for a Landgrab.

Try browsing the Incredible Dean Files[TM]:
        http://www.solstation.com/core/dean_files_en.htm

Of the TL 13 entries, roughly 20 out of 50 are vehicles. Then you can grab 
some at lower TL's to fill in for the logistics & civvies.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 22:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Aug  7 21:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] John Beats The Dead Horse of Imperial Rules Of War...
In-Reply-To: <OFB4C576D0.DD4913B9-ONCA256C0F.00177D95@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020807235157.00a78ca0@minn.net>

At 02:27 PM 8/8/2002 +1000, david.d.jaques-watson wrote:

>I believe that mercenaries, available and used in the standard way that 
>Trav says they are used, would only be possible under the canonical "Rules 
>of War" scheme. That is, with merc troops being recognised as legitimate 
>forces, with repatriation bonds, etc. Exactly what David Drake writes 
>about - I'm sure he must have cribbed a bit from Traveller.

I wouldn't think so. If I recall correctly, Hammer's Slammers was
originally patched together from a series of shorter stories published in
ANALOG before the publication of the LBB's.

I should think that Drake's work was an influence on Book 4 and subsequent
works on mercenary ops in CT.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 23:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug  7 22:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Interference
Message-ID: <OF161D1D12.25FFD37E-ONCA256C0F.001C7739@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

John wrote:
>The local freedom fighters seem to be pro-Imperial - the 
>Tanoose Freedom League has killed Ine Givar who tried to 
>recruit them.  It's almost as if the people on Garda-Vilis 
>think they would get a better shake with direct Imperial 
>interference than by having Vilis rule them from afar.

FWIW, in my campaign I put the "Aces & Eights" scenario on G-V. Everything 
seems to fit:
        - if Vilis was originally populated by Sword Worlders, then hiring 
a S-W merc outfit is not out of the question;
        - Colonel Semyon (from A&E) leads a Sword Worlder merc unit - 
hmmm;
        - as John says, the rebels appear to be pro-Imperial;
        - the guy who hid the money is an ex-Imperial intel officer, 
currently supporting the "rebels", another hmmm.

2 + 2 = 5? Works for me!  ;-)  ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 00:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug  7 23:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] sound of rolling dice
Message-ID: <103.1984cd5e.2a8363c3@aol.com>

 >> Traveller Adventure: Comet Busters
 >> 
 >> For referees only.  If you intend to play this adventure, quit reading 
now 
 >> and direct your game referee to this page. 
 >
 >*sound of harddrive saving file*

Yes, but will there be the sound of rolling dice?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 01:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 00:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] army usage
Message-ID: <24.29a1836f.2a837238@aol.com>

 >>On the other hand, if the latest briefs are any indication and we launch 
any 
 >>military action against the house of Saud, then I think we're going to 
have 
 >>to occupy everything from Libya to Jakarta.  That _will_ require an army, 
and 
 >>I'm not sure we have one.
 >
 >I've been really busy at work recently but I wasn't aware that the US 
planned 
 >to invade Saudi Arabia, where, the last time I looked the House of Saud 
were 
 >in charge.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A50022-2002Aug6.html

 >Have things changed and has the US decided to after the single biggest 
source 
 >of  al-Qaida funding?

You mean americans filling up their SUV gas tanks?  A far tougher opponent 
than Saddam.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 01:19:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 00:19:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re: army usage
Message-ID: <cf.1b176136.2a8374ff@aol.com>

 >My point was like yours that the Americans did a good job by ousting the
 >Taliban and that the Northern Alliance didn't have to be bribed to let
 >the US help them.

I guess you misunderstood me.  I didn't say they had to be bribed to let the 
US help them.  I said that previously they were a bunch of looters and 
bandits, but that now they seemed to be too busy spending lots of aid money 
to bother with looting.  The bribe was to keep them from looting and to leave 
the common people alone, not to fight.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 01:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Thu Aug  8 00:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <3D517A60.60801@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3D52C5CC.22171.37657C@localhost>

On 7 Aug 2002, at 12:52, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Anthony Jackson wrote:

> > The herbal movement notwithstanding, most pharmaceutical companies don't
> > seem to find chasing down old wives' tales, particularly extremely obscure
> > old wives' tales, to be really worth doing.

> ROFL!!!! We have one researcher here at the College who has a 
> multimillion dollar grant, with support from NIH and a bunch of 
> Pharmaceutical companies looking into the medicinal properties of arid 
> lands plants.

Even ignoring the problems of synthesing a complex pharmaceutical, it 
really helps when you have a ready supply of complex chemicals on hand 
for testing.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 02:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 01:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <e4e645e4c45c.e4c45ce4e645@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
Date: Wednesday, August 7, 2002 2:57 am
Subject: Re: [TML] re:  Silly Question

> 
> Jeff D. Greenly" says
> <snip naval change of command>
> 
> Don't forget - the outgoing commander has to do an inventory 
> with the new commander, and the new commander gets to sign 
> for the ship and all of the equipment in it.

Anybody know if a _Nimitz_-class CVN has a National Stock Number? ;-)

As the incoming captain signs a one-page hand receipt for "Carrier, 
Aircraft, Nuclear-Powered, w/ancillary equipment"...then spends the next 
week signing all the annexes to the hand receipt....

ObTrav:  GT:GF mentions the 3I's equivalent to NSNs; do major warship 
classes have such numbers?

<<snip>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 02:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Aug  8 01:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Spam Spam Spam Spam...
In-Reply-To: <11b.147a05c3.2a82e8cc@cs.com>
References: <11b.147a05c3.2a82e8cc@cs.com>
Message-ID: <20020808101200.30a20555.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Wed, 07 Aug 2002 17:19:08 -0400 (EDT)
Damage169@cs.com wrote:

> More like, "Groat Musk Perfume would be a nasty thing to suffer a container 
> breach while in the PC's cargo hold..." Especially in a S-class Scout/Courier.

Yes, that would be a very nasty problem. Very subtle. How would the PCs notice that the cargo container had been damaged?

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 02:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Aug  8 01:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] sound of rolling dice
In-Reply-To: <103.1984cd5e.2a8363c3@aol.com>
References: <103.1984cd5e.2a8363c3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020808101438.23274eb3.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Thu, 08 Aug 2002 02:03:47 -0400 (EDT)
Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> Yes, but will there be the sound of rolling dice?

Tough question. Eventually yes, but at the moment I don't run any Traveller campaign (Rolemaster, Vampire, and Torg fill my RPG time). I am working on creating a Traveller campaign in which your adventure would fit nicely, though... will run it as soon as one of the other campaigns end...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 02:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 01:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
Message-ID: <e53186e50939.e50939e53186@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: JFZeigler@aol.com
Date: Wednesday, August 7, 2002 4:23 am
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Silly Question

> >Naval JAG: So what happened to the three 15" guns that used to in 
> the aft 
> >turret?
> >Captain: What 15" guns? This is a destroyer!
> >Naval JAG: The ones in the property book you signed for when you 
> took 
> >command. I'm afraid we can't allow you to retire until those are 
> paid for . 
> . 
> 
> Heh. Anyone remember the classic SF story "Allamagoosa?"

Was that the one with the ship's "offog"?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 03:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Thu Aug  8 02:27:03 2002
Subject: MT Vehicles (was: Re: [TML] Landgrab )
In-Reply-To: <000401c23e1b$85fa2ec0$5600a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPOEENEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

I have a number of MT vehicles and ships on my site, enough to fully equip a
TL13 marined regiment. Find them at www.users.bigpond.com/Skaran if you are
interested.

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Peter L.S. Trevor
Sent: Wednesday, 7 August 2002 7:16 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: MT Vehicles (was: Re: [TML] Landgrab )


Hyphen wrote:
> Peter asked:
> >Does anyone have (or know of) some software  or  spreadsheet  for
> >creating ground vehicles using MT rules?  I need to create  about
> >a dozen different military vehicles for my Efate landgrab.
>
> I created one, but it is a little basic and assumes you have the
> rules to plug the numbers in. (I did it years ago when I was
> worried about copyright and didn't know how to write a database
> spreadsheet. I still don't... ;-)
>
> I downloaded one from the 'net... Ships III from Ace and The Dog's
> website. However, I can't remember if it covers vehicles. It's a
> bit flaky and can crash unexpectedly, so save often!
>         http://www.ace-dog.com/downloads/downloads.htm
>
> Would pulling a couple of designs from 101 Vehicles help? What are
> you after, specifically?

Ships III doesn't do vehicles (according to its manual there  are
no ground vehicle drives, etc).  I have been trying  to  use  the
DOS program for vehicles from the same site but it seems to  have
major flaws (either that or my own math  is  way  off).  And  101
Vehicles doesn't have the range I need.

I'm in the process of detailing out the armed forces  of  Efate's
Regular Army for a Landgrab.  As this is  a  place  with  a  high
chance of merc adventures (think  high-tech  'Nam  in  Traveller)
this detail seems more important than with  other  Landgrabs.  So
far I have a need for an MBT, an air  defence  AFV,  3  different
artillery AFVs, assorted AFVs for EW/ND/command/commo, a recovery
vehicle, a field repair vehicle, a G-Carrier with 3 variants,  an
APC with 5 variants, and a fast recon vehicle (possibly a  Trasea
grav bike for the last).  Before I'm done  I'll  probably  double
this list, and thats before I get to the COACC  aerospace  units,
the rear  echelon  support  vehicles,  or  the  typical  civilian
vehicles used by the militia on both sides!  If  anyone's  got  a
fetish for designing lots of MT vehicles I could pre-release  the
unit org charts for a better understanding of the requirements.

Hmmm ... or how about a TL 13 military vehicle rodeo (MT only)?

Regards PLST




_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 03:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 02:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] animals
Message-ID: <17b.c949cc4.2a839732@aol.com>

Hummingbee

    Similar to a hummingbird though larger.  Small fast and agile.  
    Brilliant colors and plumage that varies from hummingbee 
    to hummingbee.  Omnivorous -- fairly strong beak with 
    serrated edges.  Eats fruit, insects, and small animals.  
    Large and strong stinger hidden in butt, coated with a 
    gel that causes excruciating pain (in humans).  Lone females are 
    highly curious, friendly, and sociable, and can even be 
    taught tricks.  Lone females begin laying and tending eggs in 
    extreamly well-hidden nests in early spring.  The 
    initial hummingbees that hatch, all female, behave 
    similarly to their mother.  The mother then begins 
      remaining in the nest and laying eggs at a prodigious 
    rate, becoming similar to a terran queen ant with the 
    hatchlings bringing her food as needed.  
    As the colony increases in size the hummingbees become 
    less friendly, gradually becoming aggressively 
    territorial towards anything which approaches their 
    nest.  Eventually they attack 
    anything which comes near.  Hummingbees attack initially by flying 
    butt first at their target with their stingers extended, with follow-up
      attacks using their beaks.
      In late summer the queen hummingbee produces a handful 
    of males, which leave the colony in search of other 
    colonies.  If a foreign male finds the colony he breeds 
    with all the hummingbees in the nest, who then leave to 
    form their own colonies next spring.  The queen and the 
    male then die.  If no males appear then the colony 
    remains until one arrives.

Flying Cougar

    Similar to a terran mountain lion.  Its bones and 
    claws are lighter and thinner, but its jaws are large 
    and strong.  It has flaps of skin between its legs very 
    similar to those of a terran flying squirrel.  Weighs 
    about 40 lbs.  The flying cougar hunts by lurking high 
    up in trees or cliffs, watching for small to medium-sized animals 
    on the ground.  If it sees one in range it will leap 
    off of its perch and silently glide down to land on the 
    animal, dispatching it with a quick bite to the back of 
    the head.  The flying cougar can also hunt conventionally on
      the ground if it has to, and it is reasonably 
    quiet quick and agile.  The flying cougar is not 
    particularly strong and does not like to attack 
    human-sized prey, but an upright human may appear small 
    to a carnivore observing him from above and may be 
    attacked.  If the flying cougar's initial bite does not 
    kill and the prey is too large for it then the flying 
    cougar will try to run away.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 05:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 04:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The power of the Nobility
Message-ID: <ea07c4ea0052.ea0052ea07c4@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Date: Friday, July 26, 2002 9:40 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: The power of the Nobility


<<snip discussion of weapons use inside airliners>> 
> 
> Just give everybody stun guns.  They are relatively safe, handy at 
> closequarters and fairly effective.

May I please use mine on the overly-chatty passenger in the seat next 
to me?

ObTrav:  Ever notice that the areas on a ship in which gunplay is most 
likely (e.g., the bridge, engineering) are also the most vulnerable to 
the effects of stray rounds? ;-)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 06:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Aug  8 05:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] vilis landgrab
References: <20020806013403.4631.56000.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <014c01c23edb$56263660$545d8690@computer>

> Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 20:43:34 -0400
> From: "John T. Kwon"
> >I also had some thoughts about the factions of the Ine Givar
> >that were present, and their relationships with each other,
> >the Tanoose Freedom League, and Solomani supremicist groups,
> >but I will spare you those.
> No, tell me more.

Well, briefly...

IMTU, the main Ine Givar faction on Vilis looks to the Sword Worlds for
inspiration and support. A smaller faction is vaguely aligned with the
"Regina faction" who are independent, but vaguely pro-Zhodani and pro-Vargr.

The Sword Worlds is a Solomani culture, as, ultimately, is that of Vilis, so
they tend to be a bit soft on Solomani supremacists. These leads to problems
between the Ine Givar factions, since the Regina faction is rigourously
pansophontist, while the Sword Worlder faction are very soft on the
question.

The differences rarely erupt into violence, but it is rather more likely
that the Regina faction are involved in periodic struggles to defend the
Tanoosian and Vilani minorities on Vilis from Solomani supremacist gangs.
They may therefore be on better terms with the TFL than the Sword Worlder
faction, but, on the other hand, the Sword Worlder group have more money,
and support from an interstellar government.

The Regina faction only rarely engages in terrorism, and prefers to organise
non-violently. The Sword Worlds faction ...umm... There may be other
factions, as well, at least some of which could best be described as "nutty
splinter groups", or even "agents provocateur".

I hope some of this is of use to you.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 06:55:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Aug  8 05:55:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Cleon V (was Arbellatra)
References: <20020806190006.21475.58141.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <014b01c23edb$5508df80$545d8690@computer>

I haven't had time to check my emails for a couple of days, so I am
responding to oldish stuff.

> From: Donald McKinney <dmckinne@amdocs.com>
> Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 13:12:03 -0500
> I also explained the elevation of Archduke Soegz as the replacement of
> one of Emperor Joseph's (the man who defeated Cleon V, I hope I'm
> remembering right) backers...

My take is that there was an "Antares faction" that installed Martin VI, a
member of the Lentuli family, as a puppet.

Inevitably, he started to get ideas of his own, and Gustus, one of the
leaders of the faction, knocked him off.

The role of the Antares fleet in the struggle between Arbellatra and Gustus
would be one of the factors that would be involved in my PBEM, if it
happens.

(Unfortunately, this doesn't look likely at the moment - I am hopefully
going to be moving next week, which will at least temporarily disrupt my
email access.)

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com








From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 06:55:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Aug  8 05:55:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
References: <20020806203610.24254.48308.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <014d01c23edb$56ded800$545d8690@computer>

> Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 11:35:10
> From: "Douglas E. Berry"
> She probably played a different game with the Vilani.  Promises of
> increased power in the court, culminating with her son's marriage to a
> Vilani noblewoman in 679.

She was long dead, and out of the picture in 679.

To assume the marriage to Antiama was a result of the policy of Arbellatra,
rather than of Zhakirov, is to reduce Zhakirov to a cypher, and take
Arbellatra cultism a bit too far for my tastes.

In fact, I tend to take the references on Solomani influence at court being
at its height during Arbellatra's reign at face value - Zhakirov's policy
was a break from that of his mother. (And nearly led to civil war, and
actually did lead to the Imperium effectively being split in two!)

> As she drew closer to Capital, I'm sure that pretender fleets defected en
> masse rather than face annihilation.

<mumble> I really wanna do my PBEM...

> She was only 28 when the war broke out, according to canon.  I'd prefer to
> push her date of birth back to 567, making her 48 at the beginning of the
> war.  This at least gives her the age to have had a fairly long career and
> been at least an experienced Captain or junior Admiral.  This would, IMHO,
> make her seizure of the fleets far more acceptable.  No one is going to
> listen to a pup of a Ltd. Commander.

Gratuitous nepotism goes a long way. I don't see any particular problem
about her taking over the family business, especially during the Civil War,
when warlordism was rife.

A good staff will cover a multitude of sins, especially if it includes
people like Soegz. In fact, Soegz may have been the real genius.

> Does this time line work for people?

No!  : )

I've got way too many prejudices of my own on this topic. I've spent too
much time on it to not have.

It's a shame I probably won't be able to run my PBEM (in the short term). I
think my interpretation would play really well, and be plausible enough for
most people. And Gustus would probably win, given that commanders of
Arbellatra's calibre are rare.  : )

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 07:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  8 06:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
Message-ID: <200208081259.MIF02312@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Alan Bradley" says
>To assume the marriage to Antiama was a result of the policy 
>of Arbellatra, rather than of Zhakirov, is to reduce 
>Zhakirov to a cypher, and take Arbellatra cultism a bit too 
>far for my tastes.


Well, we've got the director of Braveheart doing a movie 
about Arbellatra, and we're going to play fast and loose with 
who was born when, among other historical distortions...
________________
It is impossible to travel faster than 
the speed of light and certainly not 
desirable, as ones hat keeps falling 
off...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 07:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 06:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Cleon V (was Arbellatra)
Message-ID: <f277fff28158.f28158f277ff@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Alan Bradley <abradley1@bigpond.com>
Date: Thursday, August 8, 2002 2:58 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Cleon V (was Arbellatra)

> I haven't had time to check my emails for a couple of days, so I am
> responding to oldish stuff.
> 
> > From: Donald McKinney <dmckinne@amdocs.com>
> > Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 13:12:03 -0500
> > I also explained the elevation of Archduke Soegz as the 
> replacement of
> > one of Emperor Joseph's (the man who defeated Cleon V, I hope I'm
> > remembering right) backers...
> 
> My take is that there was an "Antares faction" that installed 
> Martin VI, a
> member of the Lentuli family, as a puppet.
> 
> Inevitably, he started to get ideas of his own, and Gustus, one of the
> leaders of the faction, knocked him off.
> 
> The role of the Antares fleet in the struggle between Arbellatra 
> and Gustus
> would be one of the factors that would be involved in my PBEM, if it
> happens.

As an aside, the AuricTech Shipyards writeup in _101 Corporations_ 
mentions that AuricTech backed an unsuccessful pretender to the Iridium 
Throne during the Civil Wars (this led to the "donation" [read: 
confiscation] of most AuricTech stock, putting that stock in Imperial 
hands until it was sold to LSP).  At the time, AuricTech was 
headquartered on Sylea (or was it Capital by then?).

Can anyone suggest who such a pretender might have been?

<<snip>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 08:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 07:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Merging WTH & PE
Message-ID: <f3dd78f3fc11.f3fc11f3dd78@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Long <AndrewGLong@yahoo.com>
Date: Monday, July 8, 2002 4:20 pm
Subject: [TML] Merging WTH & PE

> I've been reading World Tamer's Handbook and Pocket Empires the 
> last week or
> so, and think it might be possible to massage them sufficiently to 
> make WTH
> feed into PE. However, I thought I'd make sure I wasn't re-
> inventing the
> wheel, and wondered if anyone else had taken a stab at it, and was 
> preparedto share their thoughts?
> 
> regards, Andy
> 
> PS - any spreadsheets around for PE or WTH?

I'm currently working on a semi-automated PE spreadsheet for 
calculating GWPs and government revenues.  As of right now, it does the 
calculations, but the user has to manually input the values.  
Eventually, I'll have tables so that the spreadsheet can automatically 
look up values based on government type et cetera, but the spreadsheet 
is right now good enough for my needs.

Any suggestions for other functions to be added as time and energy 
permit?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 09:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff D. Greenly)
Date: Thu Aug  8 08:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] I won the lottery!
Message-ID: <sd5254a9.055@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>

And now, from the I can't believe this actually happened to me files...

My SO and I were out shopping and running errands last night after
work. On the way home, she noticed that there were signs for a yard sale
to begin this morning and extend through Saturday. Never ones to pass up
good deals or good junk, we decided that if there was anyone/anything
out there this morning as we were on our way to work, we'd stop and take
a quick look...

Well, the sponsors of this particular sale were setting out their stuff
as we came up this morning, and my eye was immediately drawn to several
boxes of books that they were beginning to unpack. There were a LOT of
old science fiction paperbacks, and I started rummaging through them,
picking out a few that I wanted to buy. Out of the corner of my eye, I
noticed a familiar cover design as a box was opened, one that was black
with a red stripe! I turned to look into the box, and lo! a fairly
complete Classic Traveller collection!!!! The whole box was full of
LBB's, box sets, box games, and a copy of 5FW! I asked why these were
being sold, and the lady explained that her son was grown and in the
service and had said that he didn't want any of this stuff any more. I
asked her what she would take for the whole box, and she looked at me
with surprise, then said, "Well, how about 20 bucks?" 

As soon as I've done an inventory, I'll post a list of what's available
to sell and trade...


Jeff


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 09:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Aug  8 08:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT but soooo like a PC....
Message-ID: <3D528D4E.6010208@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

http://www.comics.com/creators/speedbump/archive/images/speedbump2002228570801.gif


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 09:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Thu Aug  8 08:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT but soooo like a PC....
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F160D@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

LOL!  Cute one :)
Jesse

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bruce Johnson [mailto:johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu]
> Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 8:25 AM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] OT but soooo like a PC....
> 
> 
> http://www.comics.com/creators/speedbump/archive/images/speedb
> ump2002228570801.gif
> 
> 
> -- 
> Bruce Johnson
> University of Arizona
> College of Pharmacy
> Information Technology Group
> 
> Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 10:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Thu Aug  8 09:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How many Xboats...
Message-ID: <3D529971.86914BB@mail.cswnet.com>

...does it take to replace a light bulb?

But Seriously...

How many Xboats/Xboat tenders does one need to maintain a single
Xboat Route?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 10:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  8 09:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How many Xboats...
Message-ID: <200208081636.MIN00707@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Roseberry asks
>How many Xboats/Xboat tenders does one need to maintain a 
>single Xboat Route?

I want to know how often X-boats leave and arrive.  If the 
boats leave on the hour (assuming a 24 hour clock), and the 
planet has a route to two other systems, then there are at 
least 48 x-boats (there should be spares, to allow for 
maintenance rotation).  Then, how many tenders do you need to 
handle two arrivals and two departures per hour?  And do we 
assume that an x-boat has to be chased down in order to get 
its messages?  I've always assumed that 99 percent of 
messages are electronic, and laser communication between an x-
boat and its tender is the form of transmission.  So, a 
tender only has to be within 1 light hour of an arriving x-
boat in order to receive messages and 1 light hour of the 
departing x-boat (for messages relayed onwards).

I'm not sure if some systems would want to have an x-boat on 
the half-hour, or more often.
________________
It is impossible to travel faster than 
the speed of light and certainly not 
desirable, as ones hat keeps falling 
off...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 10:51:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christian K)
Date: Thu Aug  8 09:51:04 2002
Subject: [TML] How many Xboats...
References: <200208081636.MIN00707@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <000f01c23efb$af484e20$0664a8c0@bigdarkone>

<snip>
>I've always assumed that 99 percent of
> messages are electronic, and laser communication between an x-
> boat and its tender is the form of transmission.  So, a
> tender only has to be within 1 light hour of an arriving x-
> boat in order to receive messages and 1 light hour of the
> departing x-boat (for messages relayed onwards).
<snip>

An XBoat per hour is darn much if you ask me considering the time of roughly
one week between jumps an hour is nothing why hurry where there is no need ?
I would asume 2 or 3 boats a day is more realistic besides the fact that at
last under GT rules travel time is not fixed it ranges between 6 and 7days
48mins.

just my two cents

Chris



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 10:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  8 09:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT but soooo like a PC....
In-Reply-To: <3D528D4E.6010208@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020808092952.009feec0@mindspring.com>

At 08:25 AM 8/8/02 -0700, you wrote:
>http://www.comics.com/creators/speedbump/archive/images/speedbump2002228570801.gif

Cute.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.
gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Author of GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces
Geek Code: tc tm tn- t4-- tg++$ ru ge+ 3i+@ c+
            jt- au pi he+ as+ so-                           



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 10:52:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  8 09:52:26 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <e4e645e4c45c.e4c45ce4e645@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020808093155.009fdec0@mindspring.com>

At 11:08 AM 8/8/02 +0300, you wrote:

> > Don't forget - the outgoing commander has to do an inventory
> > with the new commander, and the new commander gets to sign
> > for the ship and all of the equipment in it.
>
>Anybody know if a _Nimitz_-class CVN has a National Stock Number? ;-)

Since each one is manufactured individually, I doubt it.  But the F-14D 
does.  As does the M1-A1 MBT.  I spent some time helping out in the supply 
room, where I learned how to steal someone blind while staying inside the 
rules.  I also found a NSN number for a nuclear reactor.

>ObTrav:  GT:GF mentions the 3I's equivalent to NSNs; do major warship
>classes have such numbers?

Imperial vessels seem to be much more standardized when compared to the US 
Navy, so perhaps they issued as a unit.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 10:52:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  8 09:52:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D5C@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020808093629.009ed970@mindspring.com>

At 03:11 PM 8/7/02 -0400, you wrote:

>Great story from Vietnam. As usual can't remember the source:
>
>A local village mayor was known to be a VC supporter, but no one could prove
>it or do anything about it.
>One day some American intelligence types, after a firefight, threw some
>recovered VC bodies onto a jeep and drove into the village. They drove up to
>the mayor's house.
>Now, you have to picture this. The VC bodies are in full view of everyone in
>the village.
>As far as I know, the mayor did not speak English, and the Americans did not
>speak Vietnamese.
>The Americans smiled, clapped the horrified mayor on the back, and unloaded
>gifts of food, a radio, bundles of cash, etcetera, and drove off.
>Three guesses on how long the mayor lived after that?

That's a trick sometimes used by the police to turn an informant.  Arrest a 
bunch of people at a crack house.  Tell your target that he's going to be 
let go without charges, right in front of all the other detainees.  The 
target usually panics, and will do anything not to be treated differently.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 11:13:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Aug  8 10:13:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Spam Spam Spam Spam...
References: <11b.147a05c3.2a82e8cc@cs.com> <20020808101200.30a20555.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <3D52A656.4040309@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Jens Rydholm wrote:
> On Wed, 07 Aug 2002 17:19:08 -0400 (EDT)
> Damage169@cs.com wrote:
> 
> 
>>More like, "Groat Musk Perfume would be a nasty thing to suffer a container 
>>breach while in the PC's cargo hold..." Especially in a S-class Scout/Courier.
> 
> 
> Yes, that would be a very nasty problem. Very subtle. How would the PCs notice that the cargo container had been damaged?

Scout 1:"Sven...you smell that??!!"
Scout 2:"Yah, Joe...it smells *nice* in here!"
S1, S2 (simultaneously) "Oh sh*t!!!" <dive for vaccsuits)



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 11:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  8 10:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <20020808172611.81955.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>

>Great story from Vietnam. As usual can't remember the source:
>
>A local village mayor was known to be a VC supporter, but no one 
>could prove it or do anything about it.

That's disinformation at its best.  I've read the story, but I can't
remember where.  Maybe it's in Dispatches by Michael (?) Herr.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 11:35:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  8 10:35:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re: army usage
Message-ID: <20020808173458.40698.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>

>This is true and not contrary to what I said at all. 

It only contradicts your statement that the Taliban was composed
primarily of members of a tribe in southwestern Afghanistan.  As
someone else pointed out, neither of us were precisely correct nor
completely wrong.

>ObTrav: How does the citizens of a world view interference into
their
>local affairs by the Imperium? I guess that it is takes a wide range
>of sentiments, but that most worlds really want to settle their 
>issues wiyhout the IMperium medeling. Even if it means a nuclear
war.

In my Traveller universe, most worlds prefer to do everything
themselves, or in cooperation with their neighbors, without any
Imperial interference or "assistance" -- except when they really need
it, like when a foreign power invades.  Sometimes worlds will seek
Imperial assistance in mediating a conflict to avoid war, but not
always.  This is one of the reasons the Imperium tries to keep
weapons of mass destruction out of the hands of its member states, or
at least to keep such weapons tied to defense of the system from
foreign powers.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 11:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  8 10:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  vilis landgrab
Message-ID: <20020808175404.91566.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com>

>These leads to problems between the Ine Givar factions, since the
>Regina faction is rigourously pansophontist, while the Sword Worlder
>faction are very soft on the question.

Only the Solidariti splinter group is "rigourously pansophontist." 
The Credo Front supports a pansophontist platform, but does not
become distracted by what are currently minor doctrinal issues. 
"When the agents of the oppressors start shooting, your first thought
must be to shoot back, not whether you hold the gun in your right
hand or your left."*

>The Regina faction only rarely engages in terrorism, and prefers to 
>organise non-violently. 

Riiiight.  This must have been written by a Solidariti member; they
are masters of keeping a straight face.

--Subcommander Cosram, Credo Front of the Ine Givar Movement

*Black Book of Quotations of Zid Rachele 2:66

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 12:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bernie McGeehan)
Date: Thu Aug  8 11:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] 100 ton scout ship?
In-Reply-To: <berka_3d4644bb22764@webmail.berka.com>
Message-ID: <20020808184852.12064.qmail@web13403.mail.yahoo.com>

I found this while flipping through the pages of
Space.com....Vilani contact teams in Illinois?
Hmmmmm...
<a href= "http://www.space.com/php/multimedia/imagedisplay/img_display.php?pic=h_black_trihigh_02,0.jpg&cap=Estimated%20to%20be%20600%20feet%20long%20and%20300%20feet%20wide,%20with%20a%20height%20of%2040%20feet,%20the%20Black%20Triangle%20could%20weigh%20as%20much%20as%20100%20tons.%20%20Courtesy%20of%20National%20Institute%20for%20Discovery%20Science%20(NIDS)">http://www.space.com/php/multimedia/imagedisplay/img_display.php?pic=h_black_trihigh_02,0.jpg&cap=Estimated%20to%20be%20600%20feet%20long%20and%20300%20feet%20wide,%20with%20a%20height%20of%2040%20feet,%20the%20Black%20Triangle%20could%20weigh%20as%20much%20as%20100%20tons.%20%20Courtesy%20of%20National%20Institute%20for%20Discovery%20Science%20(NIDS)</a>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 12:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  8 11:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <200208081849.MIR02148@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry says
>I also found a NSN number for a nuclear reactor.

Now all you need is your own jump drive.
________________
It is impossible to travel faster than 
the speed of light and certainly not 
desirable, as ones hat keeps falling 
off...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 13:27:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Thu Aug  8 12:27:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial taxes
In-Reply-To: <20020803223629.15105.10842.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208082116470.9347-100000@ask.diku.dk>

David P. Summers writes:
>At 12:30 AM -0400 8/3/02, hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>>In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head tax" or does it charge
>>an income tax on its citizens for its Imperial Budget requirements?  In
>>short, if the Imperial government taxes 10% of a Gross Planetary Product,
>>then it would in essence be an income tax.  If it charges a flat 500 CR
>>per person on a planet, then it is a head tax.  Which is it?

According to _Striker_, the Imperium charges each world (or in the case
of balkanized worlds, each nation) a percentage of its total military
budget (These budgets, in turn, are based on GWPs, but this may be a
simplification for gaming purposes). It does not say how this sum is
collected. I assume that the Imperium gets a check from each government.

>>And I find it an interesting thought here.  If the Imperium charges say,
>>3% of a planet's gross planetary product for its military taxes - this ta=
x
>>is on top of the local ruler's/government's tax.  How much in the way of
>>taxes can a population take before its economy begins to stagnate?

Again according to _Striker_ total military budgets ranges from 1-15% of
GWP, 1% being after a long period of peace and 15% being when actually at
war.=A0Average for the Imperium is 3%. Real world examples show that
countries can manage 8-9% more or less indefinitely and more than 15% for
a while (although this tends to put a severe strain on the economy).

>My impression is that imperial taxes are very indirect (they collect
>money from the member states.  The only direct taxes are the fees
>they collect at starports?

That seems to be the case. It is unclear how much, if anything, the
Imperium collects for expenses other than military ones (and whether or
not the Scouts come out of the military budget or not). I think it quite
possible that the Emperor's Share of all interstellar companies is enough
to pay for the Imperial bureaucracy.


Hans



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 14:19:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  8 13:19:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Lawyers should look into this...
Message-ID: <200208082017.MIT04892@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I was reading the LA Times, and I thought I was reading Book 
4.

"They envision super soldiers, arriving silently by stealth 
helicopter,"

ok, a grav vehicle full of commandos...

"wearing temperature-controlled suits that can repel chemical 
and biological agents and make an individual nearly invisible 
by suppressing infrared and other telltale signatures, 
including body odor."

ok, combat environment suit with chameleon mod...

"They envision silent guns"

ok, a gauss rifle

"and lightweight, blast-intensive explosives, futuristic 
arsenals of dazzling lasers and high-power microwave and 
acoustic weapons."

hmm...  And your parents may have told you that none of that 
science fiction roleplaying game you and your friends were 
playing in the basement would ever come to pass...
________________
It is impossible to travel faster than 
the speed of light and certainly not 
desirable, as ones hat keeps falling 
off...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 14:23:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Aug  8 13:23:05 2002
Subject: [TML] 100 ton scout ship?
In-Reply-To: <20020808184852.12064.qmail@web13403.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <berka_3d4644bb22764@webmail.berka.com>
 <20020808184852.12064.qmail@web13403.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020808222246.2f21bbe3.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Thu, 08 Aug 2002 11:48:52 -0700 (PDT)
Bernie McGeehan <einreb62@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I found this while flipping through the pages of
> Space.com....Vilani contact teams in Illinois?

Is there any way to find the article to which the picture belongs? The "Return to story" link is history based (and thus doesn't work).

Meanwhile, I played around a bit with the URL. Try this one instead.

http://www.space.com/php/multimedia/imagedisplay/img_display.php?pic=h_black_trihigh_02,0.jpg&cap=All%20your%20base%20are%20belong%20to%20us

Note to self: Don't make web pages that have this bug/feature.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 15:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Thu Aug  8 14:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <02080817101100.00601@linux>

> > 	How many dinky airless rockballs with large populations do the
> > world generation rules permit?
>
> What does that matter?  They obviously don't need trade for survival.
> It's not like they'll starve if you isolate them.
>
>
	I know that they won't starve. Out of curiosity, I decided to work out what 
might happen though. 
My assumptions were : A100999-F  3 gg's     1 belt       hi va na   f5VI
			all 2d6=7 to be average and show possible outcomes for 1d6
			population mod=5

	First I tried Hard Times without imposing any war damage and only cutting 
trade.  It predicted a 33% chance of the Class a starport dropping to b, 
followed by a 2 to 5 point drop in tech level. This is caused presumably by 
the abandonment of the economy by the megacorps and other trade. This would 
cause a big recession forcing the government to increase law level by 3 to 5 
points in order to control rioting, civil unrest, etc. By the fifth year, 
things level out again, but there is a chance that a coup, or revolution 
takes place ( gov changes to feudal technocracy, martial law, or oligarchy).
	Then I tried  Pocket Empires. Everything is fine except that net per capita 
income seems awfully low. If that represents the middle class, then the poor 
will be starving or in the military or on welfare.
	Finally, I tried world tamer's handbook, though not a full sim. 
Food production is not a problem at tech 15, however even at t15, the surface 
area required to grow food is much greater than exists on the surface of the 
rockball without even considering area for housing or industry or materials 
production. IT would take a tech 15 arcology 25000 km^2 just to house 
everyone. As all hydroponics would be underground, there would also be huge 
power requirements just to grow the food. Again, wealth distribution would be 
the deciding factor as to who starved and who ate well.
	So , no, the dinky rockballs don't need outside trade. Yes, it could really 
suck to live on one though. The system must really be bad to force the choice 
of settling the entire population of the earth on a planetoid half the 
diameter of the moon. 
	hmmm. as a rpg setting, it could be fun. endless corridors and caverns 
during a bloody revolution? anyone for a game of doom?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 15:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Kerby)
Date: Thu Aug  8 14:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] I won the lottery!
In-Reply-To: <sd5254a9.055@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
Message-ID: <000901c23f22$46a658e0$44cbb3cf@yourg4lzvxou0c>

Its people like you that cause unrest... or salivating at the mouth in
anticipation of lists...

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Jeff D. Greenly
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 10:23 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] I won the lottery!

And now, from the I can't believe this actually happened to me files...

My SO and I were out shopping and running errands last night after
work. On the way home, she noticed that there were signs for a yard sale
to begin this morning and extend through Saturday. Never ones to pass up
good deals or good junk, we decided that if there was anyone/anything
out there this morning as we were on our way to work, we'd stop and take
a quick look...

Well, the sponsors of this particular sale were setting out their stuff
as we came up this morning, and my eye was immediately drawn to several
boxes of books that they were beginning to unpack. There were a LOT of
old science fiction paperbacks, and I started rummaging through them,
picking out a few that I wanted to buy. Out of the corner of my eye, I
noticed a familiar cover design as a box was opened, one that was black
with a red stripe! I turned to look into the box, and lo! a fairly
complete Classic Traveller collection!!!! The whole box was full of
LBB's, box sets, box games, and a copy of 5FW! I asked why these were
being sold, and the lady explained that her son was grown and in the
service and had said that he didn't want any of this stuff any more. I
asked her what she would take for the whole box, and she looked at me
with surprise, then said, "Well, how about 20 bucks?" 

As soon as I've done an inventory, I'll post a list of what's available
to sell and trade...


Jeff

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TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 15:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thing)
Date: Thu Aug  8 14:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] 100 ton scout ship?
References: <berka_3d4644bb22764@webmail.berka.com><20020808184852.12064.qmail@web13403.mail.yahoo.com> <20020808222246.2f21bbe3.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <001d01c23f23$20c6cd20$0100a8c0@pentacle>

On Thursday, August 08, 2002 1:22 PM
Jens Rydholm said,

> Is there any way to find the article to which the picture belongs? The
"Return to story" link is history based (and thus doesn't work).
>
> Meanwhile, I played around a bit with the URL. Try this one instead.
>
>
http://www.space.com/php/multimedia/imagedisplay/img_display.php?pic=h_black
_trihigh_02,0.jpg&cap=All%20your%20base%20are%20belong%20to20us

I believe this is the article in question.

http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/black_triangle_020805.htm
l

G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
Grand Master of the Electron Flow
Minion to SheChemist and GothBunny
==========================
"I have taken all knowledge to be my province." -Francis Bacon


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 15:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Aug  8 14:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  vilis landgrab
References: <20020808190005.17449.17738.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c23f25$6fcf6d80$f1b18b90@computer>

> From: "Glenn M. Goffin" 
> --Subcommander Cosram, Credo Front of the Ine Givar Movement

Splitters!

On behalf of the Regina Regional Committee of the Ine Givar (Solidariti)

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 15:45:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Aug  8 14:45:27 2002
Subject: [TML] How many Xboats...
In-Reply-To: <200208081636.MIN00707@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208081636.MIN00707@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020809074313.A2995@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:

> If the boats leave on the hour (assuming a 24 hour clock), and the
> planet has a route to two other systems, then there are at least 48
> x-boats (there should be spares, to allow for maintenance rotation).

Given that the cycle time for any given x-boat is no less than two
weeks, if they depart on the hour to two other systems then you'll
need about 700 of them.


> I'm not sure if some systems would want to have an x-boat on the
> half-hour, or more often.

How many systems could *afford* an x-boat on the half-hour?  Would it
be worth the cost?  I doubt it.

X-boats that depart on the half-hour don't arrive on the half-hour.
Sending them more often than half a day or so starts to run into the
uncertainty of +-16 hours in the duration of each jump.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 15:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  8 14:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How many Xboats...
Message-ID: <200208082149.MIX01956@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>X-boats that depart on the half-hour don't arrive on the 
>half-hour.
>Sending them more often than half a day or so starts to run 
>into the uncertainty of +-16 hours in the duration of each 
>jump.

I believe that at a minimum, people would want at least a 
daily run.
________________
It is impossible to travel faster than 
the speed of light and certainly not 
desirable, as ones hat keeps falling 
off...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 15:54:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Aug  8 14:54:04 2002
Subject: [TML] animals
Message-ID: <Springmail.0994.1028843628.0.04003000@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>

Flykiller@aol.com posted:
> 
> Hummingbee
<snip> 
> Flying Cougar

Try the Singapore native snake. A story about it was posted today at:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/DailyNews/snake020807.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 16:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Aug  8 15:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] 100 ton scout ship?
References: <berka_3d4644bb22764@webmail.berka.com><20020808184852.12064.qmail@web13403.mail.yahoo.com> <20020808222246.2f21bbe3.jenry023@student.liu.se> <001d01c23f23$20c6cd20$0100a8c0@pentacle>
Message-ID: <3D52EBE3.1030401@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Thing wrote:

 > 
http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/black_triangle_020805.htm
 >  l

Just a quick email note. If you enclose your url's in <> brackets, most
capable email clients will recognize and assemble even multiline url's
properly.

http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/black_triangle_020805.htm
l

Will most likely give a 404 error, but

<http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/black_triangle_020805.html>

usually will work, even if it's broken over two lines

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 16:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 15:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT Help Needed
Message-ID: <7f.2a5ba891.2a844764@aol.com>

I need the help of the list with my MSc.

I am studying the Public Understanding of Science (PUS) and have decided to 
harness the Power Of The Internet(tm) to investigate peoples knowledge and 
attitudes about cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) and "do not resuscitate" 
DNAR orders.

Anyone who would like to help can do so by filling in an online survey and by 
letting others know the URL and what I'm after. More information and access 
to the questionnaire can be found at:

http://members.aol.com/researchfiend/index.html

Thanks in advance to all those who agree to help.  

Charles

I addressed some cheerful chit-chat at the man opposite but was rewarded with 
grunt. I tried the man next to me but he just looked at the gentleman I had 
tried first and said "Do you know what he's talking about?" At this point I 
realised I was getting out my depth but the Dean stepped in and saved me, "Oh 
don't worry about it" he said, "They're mathematicians - we never talk to 
them."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 16:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Aug  8 15:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <02080817101100.00601@linux>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux>
Message-ID: <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>

richard honeycutt wrote:
> My assumptions were : A100999-F  3 gg's     1 belt       hi va na   f5VI
[...]
> 	First I tried Hard Times without imposing any war damage and only cutting 
> trade.  It predicted a 33% chance of the Class a starport dropping to b, 
> followed by a 2 to 5 point drop in tech level. This is caused presumably by 
> the abandonment of the economy by the megacorps and other trade.

Good lord!  That seems way out of whack with the actual level of trade
the planet has according to the Far Trader rules.  I get a total
external trade level of about 300 GCr/year, and average GWP of 60 TCr
per year.

Would the loss of trade worth 0.5% of their economy really have that
drastic an effect within a year or two?  I think most people wouldn't
even notice.  I can understand that the starport might drop to B
through disuse, though probably only if it doesn't have any
intrasystem traffic (that might be why a 33% chance).

A massive drop in tech level seems *exceedingly* unlikely though.  In
trade volume terms, it would be like the Phillipines "abandoning" the
economy of the rest of the world, causing the rest of the world to
experience a massive economic slump, rioting, civil unrest, and
reversion to pre-WWI technology.  No offense to inhabitants of the
Phillipines, but I don't think they prop up the rest of the world.

Likewise, I don't think the minute volume of trade props up the
high-pop worlds in Traveller.


> Food production is not a problem at tech 15, however even at t15,
> the surface area required to grow food is much greater than exists
> on the surface of the rockball

That's broken.  An average hectare per person assigned to food
production is ample even with current technology and without trying
hard.  Tech level 15 should be able to do *much* better.


> without even considering area for housing or industry or materials
> production. IT would take a tech 15 arcology 25000 km^2 just to
> house everyone.

Given that the rockball has a surface area of more than 30000000 km^2,
that's not a concern.


> As all hydroponics would be underground, there would also be huge
> power requirements just to grow the food.

That's not a problem, even if you do decide to abandon the surface.
Traveller fusion power is *really* cheap.  A megawatt would cost no
more than Cr10/week.  It would certainly take much less power than a
megawatt per person to grow food.

In fact, it takes less than a hundred kilowatts per person at current
tech without any concern for energy efficiency.  Yes, that's including
light input.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 16:35:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Aug  8 15:35:05 2002
Subject: [TML] How many Xboats...
In-Reply-To: <200208082149.MIX01956@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208082149.MIX01956@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020809083445.C2995@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> I believe that at a minimum, people would want at least a daily run.

I agree -- half a day between X-boats would be about right, I think.
So what if many of them arrive in the wrong order? :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 16:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Aug  8 15:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How many Xboats...
In-Reply-To: <200208082149.MIX01956@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D539CBE.10878.42BDF9@localhost>

On 8 Aug 2002 at 17:49, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Timothy Little says
> >X-boats that depart on the half-hour don't arrive on the 
> >half-hour.
> >Sending them more often than half a day or so starts to run 
> >into the uncertainty of +-16 hours in the duration of each 
> >jump.
> 
> I believe that at a minimum, people would want at least a 
> daily run.

I've always assumed a daily run down each branch IMTU, plus assorted 
special runs as required.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 16:50:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  8 15:50:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux>
 <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <02080817101100.00601@linux>
 <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <m3sn1p7yq7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:
> 
> That's broken.  An average hectare per person assigned to food
> production is ample even with current technology and without trying
> hard.  Tech level 15 should be able to do *much* better.

You can feed a man on 2 1/2 acres?  What would you be planting?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I've resigned myself to seeing everything I consider meritorious slowly
destroyed by the forces of corruption, greed and stupidity, but it's
really adding insult to injury that they can't even maintain a facade of
competence.                                                --Tim Mefford

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 17:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Aug  8 16:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3D53003A.1070102@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Timothy Little wrote:
> richard honeycutt wrote:
> 
>>My assumptions were : A100999-F  3 gg's     1 belt       hi va na   f5VI
> 
> [...]
> 
>>	First I tried Hard Times without imposing any war damage and only cutting 
>>trade.  It predicted a 33% chance of the Class a starport dropping to b, 
>>followed by a 2 to 5 point drop in tech level. This is caused presumably by 
>>the abandonment of the economy by the megacorps and other trade.
> 
> 
> Good lord!  That seems way out of whack with the actual level of trade
> the planet has according to the Far Trader rules.  I get a total
> external trade level of about 300 GCr/year, and average GWP of 60 TCr
> per year.

This is because all of the above econmomic models (Hard Times, GT:FT, 
WBH, WTH) are all a) mutually incompatible, and b) subject to widely 
varying assumptions.

You can't compare these, and which model is correct depends on which 
rule set you use.

In general econometric analysis of the OTU is going to be pretty much 
hopeless, imo, because the gaps in data are so much larger than the data.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 18:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Thu Aug  8 17:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020806113510.45efd91c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEOGEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>IMHO, the model for Arbellatra is Augustus--not Julius--Caesar. That is,
she
>>was more a illiant politician than a brilliant general. I base this on a
few
>>factors:
>
>Good model.  I was thinking a bit of Hitler, personally.  Same kind of
>personal magnetism.
>
Charisma in a politician  to this extent is not entirely unknown across the
political spectrum. Julius Caesar certainly had it, as did Alexander the
Great, as well as possibly Franklin Roosevelt and Hitler.

>>1) She essentially lost the 2FW but still managed to declare victory and
>>mobilize the Marches behind her. (Remember, the Imperium ceded territory
to
>>the Zhodani after the war, and Library Data mentions that the final
>>engagement resulted in a "stalemate" between the two sides. She basically
>>one the war the same way the U.S. "won" the War of 1812--by not losing as
>>badly as expected.)
>
>This might have come from misunderstanding Zhodani war goals.  Arbellatra
>probably knew from the start that the Zhodani wanted to remove the Imperium
>from Zhodani territory, not destroy the Imperium.  But playing up the image
>of the Zho's as barbarians helped her cause.  A draw was as good as a
>victory to her.

I suspect that she did know more about the Zhodani than her contemporaries.
The Zhos have never been expansionist and have only attempted to restrain
the Imperium's expansionistic tendencies.

<snip>
>
>>3) Her masterly stroke of refusing the crown is remarkably similar to
>>Augustus' own "retirement" from government--while in truth retaining a
firm
>>grip on the reins of power. (The people of Rome demanded at one point that
>>he publish a list of candidates he favored, so they would know who to vote
>>for--not from coercion, but from a devotion to Augustus.)
>
>It is her that I am of two minds..  I sort of like the idea that she
>honestly meant to find a surviving Zhunastu heir; only taking the throne
>when that proved impossible.
>

I  also like the idea that she was most concerned with the Imperium and
honestly tried to find an heir.

>>My interpretation may also explain her meteoric rise to high command at
such
>>a young age--perhaps her title of Grand Admiral of the Marches was a
>>ceremonial one, or rank was determined by noble standing to a much greater
>>degree in the antebellum Imperium. (Indeed, perhaps Arbellatra reformed
the
>>military to make it more egalitarian, not only to prevent a rival from
>>rising in a fashion like her own, but to insure loyalty to the Emperor and
>>the Imperium and not the individual commander, as seems to be the case
with
>>Plankwell and the other Emperors of the Flag.)
>
>"Nothing succeeds like success" they say.  I've always sensed that along
>with being politically brilliant, she was possibly the greatest strategic
>and tactical mind the Imperium ever saw.  She was only 28 when the war
>broke out, according to canon.  I'd prefer to push her date of birth back
>to 567, making her 48 at the beginning of the war.  This at least gives her
>the age to have had a fairly long career and been at least an experienced
>Captain or junior Admiral.  This would, IMHO, make her seizure of the
>fleets far more acceptable.  No one is going to listen to a pup of a Ltd.
>Commander.
>
Alexander the great succeeded to the thrown at the age of twenty. By the
time he was 32 he controlled nearly the entire known world, at least as
known to him. In a society where a child's future position of command is
known at a very early age military training would start at a very young age.
I see her as reading Sun Tsu by age nine and Machiavelli by age twelve. If
she was a prodigy she could have been an ensign by age 18 or 20. If she was
successful in actual combat missions, against pirates or corsairs she could
have risen rapidly, or perhaps she outfitted her own ship and was actually a
"privateer noble" captain before the war. Francis Drake was a ships captain
at the age of twenty, and already a legendary privateer at that time.

The fact is we don't know how the Imperial fleet was made up at that time.
CT's character generation rules seem to indicate that the IN during the
1100's follows modern (20th century) wet Navy practices, with Naval
Academies, OCS, etc. This doesn't really say anything about how the Imperial
Navy operated four hundred years earlier.

The U.S. Naval Academy (the original one at Philadelphia not the one at
Annapolis) was founded because young officers (who were trained aboard ship
as midshipmen as described in the Hornblower novels) rebelled and Navy
leaders wanted them to have a more formal education, which included more
stringent discipline in a more controlled setting.

If officers of Arbellatra's time were trained in the fleet, instead of on
planet at an academy, then she could have been an officer while still in her
teens. If ships and fleets were personally raised by nobles, then if she
showed herself competent or her family had enough money she could very well
have been a captain while still in her twenties. Such a fleet would be more
loyal to the people who raised it that to the Imperium, or at least to the
Emperor.

I like her young age. It fits in well with a more age of sail feel for the
setting during this time. A closer tie between a fleet's admiral's and
officers and the men and women manning the ships would result if all the
fleets were colonial in nature. It explains why Plankwell's fleet followed
him to capital, without a serious dissenting voice. And why the other fleets
would follow their leaders without seriously protesting in the name of the
Emperor.

I could really get into this period. I find it much more interesting than
the Interstellar War period. (Sorry Loren.)



Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 18:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  8 17:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How many Xboats...
Message-ID: <200208090022.MJB03321@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>So what if many of them arrive in the wrong order? :)

Your email can arrive in the wrong order, theoretically.  But 
everything has a timestamp specifying the incept of the 
message.
________________
It is impossible to travel faster than 
the speed of light and certainly not 
desirable, as ones hat keeps falling 
off...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 18:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  8 17:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <200208090025.MJB03477@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Robert Uhl asks
>You can feed a man on 2 1/2 acres?  What would you be 
>planting?

Soylent green.
________________
It is impossible to travel faster than 
the speed of light and certainly not 
desirable, as ones hat keeps falling 
off...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 19:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 18:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] jenry023@student.liu.se
Message-ID: <a.2330244c.2a8474ff@aol.com>

 >I am working on creating a Traveller campaign in which your adventure would 
fit  >nicely, though... will run it as soon as one of the other campaigns 
end...

Please let me know how it turns out.  Thanks.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 19:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Aug  8 18:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <m3sn1p7yq7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
 <02080313391901.00601@linux>
 <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <02080817101100.00601@linux>
 <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020808214249.025e5ec8@192.168.0.1>

At 04:49 PM 8/8/2002 -0600, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
>Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:
> >
> > That's broken.  An average hectare per person assigned to food
> > production is ample even with current technology and without trying
> > hard.  Tech level 15 should be able to do *much* better.
>
>You can feed a man on 2 1/2 acres?  What would you be planting?

Well, first off, as Bruce Johnson said, all the various version are mostly 
incompatible with each other.

Second, I keep see folks say stuff like "well, at TL 15 this isn't a 
problem".  All of the Imperium is not running at TL 15.
You have TL 12 & TL 11 or lower rockballs out there.  Sure they can import 
cool high tech stuff, but how long can a TL 9 rockball support TL 15 
equipment on their own?

As to what they grow to get that yield, there are things that will do it, 
like the blue green algae I mentioned before.
That makes a boring diet though. It's a good staple, but for long term 
usage, you're gonna want to have variety.
If it's too expensive to import, then you have to grow it locally.  Ya, 
beef is great stuff, but it takes a lot of grain to feed a cow, and then 
space for the cow.

Space is big, even if you just limit it to Imperial Space, it's big.
You will probably find a wide range of solutions.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 19:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Thu Aug  8 18:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Do I have to Yahoo! ?
Message-ID: <000c01c23f32$9edea020$c9c4d63f@customer>

Could someone tell me if it is necessary to follow these instructions to
subscribe to The JTAS

John Scarlett

Hello jlscarlett@earthlink.net,

We have received your request to join the JTAS
group hosted by Yahoo! Groups, a free, easy-to-use community service.

This request will expire in 21 days.

TO BECOME A MEMBER OF THE GROUP:

1) Go to the Yahoo! Groups site by clicking on this link:


http://groups.yahoo.com/i?i=abztGutj6OteVF9ZVJaJNO_whCU&e=jlscarlett%40earth
link%2Enet

  (If clicking doesn't work, "Cut" and "Paste" the line above into your
   Web browser's address bar.)

-OR-

2) REPLY to this email by clicking "Reply" and then "Send"
   in your email program

If you did not request, or do not want, a membership in the
JTAS group, please accept our apologies
and ignore this message.

Regards,

Yahoo! Groups Customer Care

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 19:57:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Thu Aug  8 18:57:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Food requirements for people
In-Reply-To: <200208090025.MJB03477@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020808220125.0295d6b0@mail.buffnet.net>

For what it is worth - in medieval times, a family of 5, 2 adults and 3 
children, could survive on the produce of 15 acres per year.  This works 
out to 3 acres on average per person.  Keep in mind as well, that the 15 
acres of land no only supported the 5 people, but produced enough surplus 
that for every 10 peasant families working the land, 1 city family was 
supported.  Overall, I'm guessing that each 3 acres of land provided enough 
support for 1.1 people on average.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 20:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Thu Aug  8 19:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020806114206.364f75c8@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNIEOHEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>The one thing I can't stand is the ship designs. I loath the Caen. Among
>>other problems: Where are the navy ratings bunked? They certainly wouldn't
>>be with the Marines, not since the rest of canon says that they should be
>>living in staterooms, which I would suppose are separate from the
officer's
>>staterooms. I could go on and on about the failings of the design, but I
>>don't want to rant.
>
>I have problems with the Caen deckplans myself.  It was designed as a very
>"close" ship, and I did put in that the rest of the Navy thinks the crews
>that work the Caens are oddballs.  If you have an improved design, I'd love
>to see it.
>--
>
>Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com

Here's a slightly revised Caen design, with a nod to Heinlein:

1,200-ton Roger Young -class Dropship, Davy Crockett (TL12)
Crew: 30 Total. 20 Command and Control, 1 Maneuver Drive, 1 Jump Drive, 2
Medical, 4 Nuclear Damper Operators, 1 Weapon Bay Gunners, 2 Turret Gunners.
Hull: 1,200-ton USL, Medium Frame, Standard Materials, Bonded Superdense
(Expensive) Armored Hull (DR 2,000, Thermal Super-conducting Armor,
Psi-Shielded, Instant Chameleon, LCD Skin), Standard Compartmentalization.
Control Areas: Command Bridge (Hardened, Complexity 10), Military
Information Center (Hardened, Complexity 10).
Communicator Range (mi)	Radio	Maser	Laser	Meson
Command Bridge	50,000,000	0	100,000,000	200,000

Sensors Range/Rating (mi)	Passive	Active	Radscanner
Command Bridge	100,000/41	200,000/43	30,000/38
Engineering: Engineering, 60 Jump Drive, 170 Maneuver Drive (3.03 / 3.86 Gs,
17,000 stons thrust), 240 Fuel Tank, 2 Fuel Processor (15 hours to refine ),
3 Utility.
Accommodations: 76 4 Person Bunkroom, 10 Stateroom, 2 Sickbay (6 Patients),
Operating Theater (2 Patients), 2 Low Berth (8 Cryoberths), 20 Drop Capsule
Rack (320 Users), 2 Drop Capsule Launcher, 16 Battle Dress Morgue (320
Users), 3 Shooting Range (6 Users), 3 Gymnasium (12 Users), Military
Holoventure.
Armaments: Nuclear Damper (10 mi), 1 Lg Internal Bay Battery of 1 (Lg Lt
Missile Bay [8200], Lg Lt Missile Bay Load [x8200]), 2 Turret Batteries of 1
each (DR 1,000, 3x405 Mj Std Laser[RoF Bonus +1]).
Weapon Name	Qty	Type	Acc	SS	Dmg	RoF	1/2 Rng	Max
Lg Lt Missile Bay [8200]	1					(+0)		10,000,000/1000
405 Mj Std Laser	6	Imp	33	30	5dx100(2)	1/60 (+7)	26000/3	78100/8

Missiles/Probes	Qty	DR	G-Rds	Exp Dmg	KK-Dmg	Size	AMod	PMod
Lg Lt Missile Bay Load [x8200]	1	120	10G-30	6dx80(10)	6dx100(5)	0	-8	-8
Stores: 55 Vehicle Bay (55 dtons for small craft available).
Statistics: DMass 4,165.47 stons, EMass 4,405.47 stons, LMass 5,609.17
stons, Base Cost MCr404.64, Load Cost MCr172.28, Total Cost MCr576.92, HP
75,000, Damage Threshold 7,500, Size Mod +10, HT 12, 96.6 Man-Hours/day
Maintenance.
Space Performance: Jump-4, sAcc 3.03/3.03/3.86/4.08 Gs.
Air Performance: aSpeed 600 mph, Skimming aSpeed 11,692 mph, aLift 17,000
stons.
Sample Times : Orbit 0.11 Hrs, Escape Velocity 0.16 Hrs, 100D 3.67 Hrs,
Earth-Mars 62.97 Hrs.
Options
All times are Earth Std, Full Load.
100D and Earth-Mars assume mid-point turnover.
Printed with GMV Version 2.32.01 on 08/08/2002 9:33:24 PM
Copyright (c) 2002 by I.T. Carlino

I reduced the armor to 2000 and the speed to 3 G, fully loaded. This thing
isn't going to be fighting in the line of battle.  This speed should be
adequate. It's still almost as fast as a Keith Transport, and faster than a
Nakerkh lander. This let me reduce the M-drives enough to replace the bunk
rooms with 4 person staterooms. (I hope I got them right. I doubled the cost
and weight of a two man stateroom, so I probably over compensated.)

The write up says that the Imperium normally loads out bunkrooms with 4
person per stateroom. It strikes me that this kind of Dropship will
typically be on patrol with Marines ready to deploy. So the four person per
room makes sense to me. I hope Starships has an official 4 person stateroom
module. I certainly pushed it hard enough during the playtest. I included 10
Staterooms for officers. Four are for ships officers and the other six for
Marine Officers

Of the 20 Command and Control personnel half should be Marines in the
Military Information Center, which I would suppose is the same as the Caen's
Tactical Command Center.

Crew will consist of Captain, Pilot, Navigator, Chief Engineer, Doctor, as
well as more engineers than indicated above. Probably at least 4 more. I
would expect 6 ship officers sharing 3 staterooms with the captain have a
stateroom to herself. The troop commander will probably have a private
stateroom also. With the rest being shared by the rest of the Marine
Officers.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 20:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 19:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Do I have to Yahoo! ?
Message-ID: <177.cae8ad7.2a847ccf@aol.com>

--part1_177.cae8ad7.2a847ccf_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> Could someone tell me if it is necessary to follow these instructions to
> subscribe to The JTAS.

Hmmm.

The JTAS group on Yahoo! is mostly just for announcements of new
content in the real Journal of the Traveller's Aid Society. I've never seen
it used for anything else.

If you want to subscribe to JTAS itself - the actual webzine currently
run by Steve Jackson Games - you can go to http://jtas.sjgames.com/ .
There are samples of content that you can look at before deciding
whether you want to subscribe or not, and I believe you can actually
subscribe using a link from that page.

Enjoy.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

--part1_177.cae8ad7.2a847ccf_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt; Could someone tell me if it is necessary to follow these instructions to
<BR>&gt; subscribe to The JTAS.
<BR>
<BR>Hmmm.
<BR>
<BR>The JTAS group on Yahoo! is mostly just for announcements of new
<BR>content in the real Journal of the Traveller's Aid Society. I've never seen
<BR>it used for anything else.
<BR>
<BR>If you want to subscribe to JTAS itself - the actual webzine currently
<BR>run by Steve Jackson Games - you can go to http://jtas.sjgames.com/ .
<BR>There are samples of content that you can look at before deciding
<BR>whether you want to subscribe or not, and I believe you can actually
<BR>subscribe using a link from that page.
<BR>
<BR>Enjoy.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_177.cae8ad7.2a847ccf_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 20:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  8 19:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Stripmime
Message-ID: <B97873B1.69033%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Someone on the TML kindly modified Stripmime to allow messages without a
content type to get posted on the list (A fix for Leonard).  If that person
still has a copy, could they please contact me.  I've lost the original tha=
t
you sent me.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 20:20:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  8 19:20:10 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Lawyers should look into this...
Message-ID: <20020809021802.34319.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com>

>Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 16:17:51 -0400
>
>"They envision silent guns"
>
>ok, a gauss rifle

Where did you get your silent gauss rifle?  The bullets in mine
always make a boom as they break the sound barrier.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 20:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Thu Aug  8 19:24:03 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <001a01c23f4b$b6502d00$7400a8c0@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Timothy Little" <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 11:33 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE


> richard honeycutt wrote:

> > As all hydroponics would be underground, there would also be huge
> > power requirements just to grow the food.
>
> That's not a problem, even if you do decide to abandon the surface.
> Traveller fusion power is *really* cheap.  A megawatt would cost no
> more than Cr10/week.  It would certainly take much less power than a
> megawatt per person to grow food.
>
> In fact, it takes less than a hundred kilowatts per person at current
> tech without any concern for energy efficiency.  Yes, that's including
> light input.

All fine and dandy. Basically your position is that due to the ready
availability of cheap fusion power and the relatively small volume of
interstellar trade, an isolated system is still essentially self-sufficient
in most circumstances. Fair enough.

However, the original post on this 'Failed World' topic was regarding their
prevalence in TNE. Battle Damage to infrastructure during Hard Times would
certainly cause short term (i.e. a few years) stress on a systems self
sufficiency. Parts designed with hundred or thousand year lifetimes (i.e.
major structural elements of Domed Cities etc) might require specialist
technology not available locally. The lack of external trade would hinder
efforts to obtain this technology (or replacement parts), which would not be
apparent in regular trading figures. Then Virus hits and suddenly your cheap
ubiquitous fusion reactors are... well... 'not operating to nominal
specification' probably sums it up best... neither is your life support.

If your planet is not capable of sustaining life without TL9+ tech (maybe
even as low as TL5+. Most airless rockballs won't have handy reserves of
fossil fuels...) then you are in trouble. And the numerous deaths that arise
are likely to take out the people most capable of repairing or redirecting
technology early on, as they will likely be the first to respond to the
numerous extremely hazardous emergencies that arise, with often fatal
consequences.

So, already stressed LS and Power supplies become actively hostile and
malignant. Help will not be coming from outside (any ship arriving is likely
to make a very abnormal re-entry... 'death-diving' into cities etc) and no
chance to escape off-planet either, unless you want to risk plunging back to
the ground in a Terminal fashion of having a very close encounter with
either the local star or vacuum. Rioting, looting, and hysteria will do even
more damage...

High TL is a wonderful thing for supporting billions of people in comfort on
otherwise inhospitable environments... but when your high TL *is* the
inhospitable environment you need to get as far away from it as possible.
And a billion shopworkers and accountants don't make the best farmers...
especially when your harvesting machinery is trying to eat you... witness
the end of Dulinor...

Matt






From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 20:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Burns)
Date: Thu Aug  8 19:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] 100 ton scout ship?
Message-ID: <20020809023547.29492.qmail@web10605.mail.yahoo.com>

On Thu, 08 Aug 2002 11:48:52 -0700 (PDT)
Bernie McGeehan wrote:


> I found this while flipping through the pages of
> Space.com....Vilani contact teams in Illinois?

"Well judging from the dimensions and estimated weight
I believe it is in fact the padded shipping container
for one Imperial Type S Scout/Courier. This just goes
to prove my suspicion that all UFO sightings and
contacts are with extraterrestial waste management
units. The requisite occasional abduction and testing
is to determine if we can finally be classified as a
hazardous waste sight so they can start dumping the
really nasty stuff. Watch the skies! The junk is out
there!" :)

On Thu, 8 Aug 2002 22:22:46 +0200
Jens Rydholm wrote:

Meanwhile, I played around a bit with the URL. Try
this one instead.

http://www.space.com/php/multimedia/imagedisplay/img_display.php?pic=h_black_trihigh_02,0.jpg&cap=All%20your%20base%20are%20belong%20to%20us

Note to self: Don't make web pages that have this
bug/feature.

"LOL That is just too funny! I suppose the nice thing
to do would be to tell them ;) perhaps in a creative
and fun way ;) like an anonymous e-mail with a "link"
to their article." :)

Dan "far-trader" Burns

still looking for 'the' definitive .sig file




______________________________________________________________________ 
Post your ad for free now! http://personals.yahoo.ca

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 20:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  8 19:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Lawyers should look into this...
Message-ID: <200208090248.MJH00974@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Glenn M. Goffin" says
>Where did you get your silent gauss rifle?  The bullets in 
>mine always make a boom as they break the sound barrier.

Actually, I've fired quite a few rifle rounds with a 
suppressor - the crack is noticeable - but depending on where 
you are downrange, it may be impossible to localize the 
source of the firing.  The crack is heard as the round passes 
you by - if the round misses far to the right of you, you 
will hear the sound to your right, even if the shooter is 
nowhere to the right.  

More of a snapping sound in most cases - a light cracking.  
For people not familiar with the sound at all, it may or may 
not be identified as gunfire.

I would be that the gauss rifle would sound like this, except 
that the sound from the firing point would be non-existent.
________________
It is impossible to travel faster than 
the speed of light and certainly not 
desirable, as ones hat keeps falling 
off...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 21:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu Aug  8 20:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] 100 ton scout ship?
In-Reply-To: <3D52EBE3.1030401@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020809030206.EC91C2793F@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/08/02 at 03:08 PM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
said:

>Thing wrote:

> > 
>http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/black_triangle_020805.htm
> >  l

>Just a quick email note. If you enclose your url's in <> brackets,
>most capable email clients will recognize and assemble even multiline
>url's properly.

>http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/black_triangle_020805.htm
>l

>Will most likely give a 404 error, but

><http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/black_triangle_020805.html>

>usually will work, even if it's broken over two lines

Usually, perhaps, but not always. Mine doesn't.

Eris

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 21:05:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Thu Aug  8 20:05:30 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <20020806203758.D28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEOIEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

Terry Carlino wrote:
>
>> Part of the point would be to force ships attempting to traverse the
>> area to slow down, use sensors and weapons to clear the mine
>> field. This alone would make them detectable to opposing craft.
>
>I've not found detection of enemy craft to be much of a problem in my
>test-bed runs.  Usually the side with mines controls the system, sees
>the jump flash of any intruder, and can track everything they
>subsequently do.
>
>Maybe I'm just lacking battle experience against other people.  Is
>avoiding detection by the defender a possibility in most people's
>scenarios?
>
>
>- Tim

I guess a lot depends on the tactical conditions. If the system is only
moderately inhabited, with a small defense force an attacker may try a close
in jump and an immediate engagement with the enemy, especially if the
attacking fleet has battle riders and can synchronize their jumps (so that
all ship arrive at effectively the same time.) They may try to overwhelm the
defender.

If jumps cannot be synchronized then an attacking fleet is going to want to
come in far outside the 100 D limit where there is not likely to be a
defending fleet.

In the first case the defenders will see the jump flash, and probably be
able to follow the attackers from then on, especially if the have many
enhanced sensor stations spread throughout near space. In the second case
they will see the flash and know something's coming, but it still might take
days for the attacker's units to form up and weeks for them to actually
attack. How long can your forces stay on high alert before they start to
lose their edge?  Especially when there are dozens of flashes every day for
a week.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 21:12:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  8 20:12:10 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Lawyers should look into this...
In-Reply-To: <20020809021802.34319.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020808200720.009fabd0@mindspring.com>

At 07:18 PM 8/8/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 16:17:51 -0400
> >
> >"They envision silent guns"
> >
> >ok, a gauss rifle
>
>Where did you get your silent gauss rifle?  The bullets in mine
>always make a boom as they break the sound barrier.

Most of the sound associated with weapons fire is the sound of the powder 
going off.  The crack of the bullet is negligible.  For example, a silenced 
.22LR is nearly silent in operation.

A 4mm gauss round would make a high pitched *crack* audible only to those 
near the flight path.


-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Some people have told me they don't think a fat penguin
really embodies the grace of Linux, which just tells me
they have never seen an angry penguin charging at them
in excess of 100 mph. They'd be a lot more careful about
what they say if they had. - Linus Torvalds




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 21:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  8 20:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEOGEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEOGEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <m3k7n0d7ru.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Terry Carlino" <carlino@cox.net> writes:
>
> Alexander the great succeeded to the thrown at the age of twenty.  By
> the time he was 32 he controlled nearly the entire known world, at
> least as known to him. 

> I see her as reading Sun Tsu by age nine and Machiavelli by age
> twelve.  If she were a prodigy she could have been an ensign by age
> 18 or 20.  Francis Drake was a ships captain at the age of twenty,
> and already a legendary privateer at that time.

> The U.S. Naval Academy (the original one at Philadelphia not the one
> at Annapolis) was founded because young officers (who were trained
> aboard ship as midshipmen as described in the Hornblower novels)
> rebelled and Navy leaders wanted them to have a more formal
> education, which included more stringent discipline in a more
> controlled setting.

> If officers of Arbellatra's time were trained in the fleet, instead
> of on planet at an academy, then she could have been an officer
> while still in her teens.  If ships and fleets were personally
> raised by nobles, then if she showed herself competent or her family
> had enough money she could very well have been a captain while still
> in her twenties.  Such a fleet would be more loyal to the people who
> raised it than to the Imperium, or at least to the Emperor.

> I like her young age.  It fits in well with a more age of sail feel
> for the setting during this time.

_Exactly_.  Selections quoted for reiterative effect.  You've hit it
in a nutshell.

As a matter of fact, I am unconvinced that the modern
`generalist-to-18' model is long for this world.  I think that as
technology &c. progress further and further the great minds (as
opposed to the great masses) will more and more be schooled in their
subjects from the earliest age.  Particle physics at 4, advanced
quantum physics at 6, <whatever-replaces-it> at 10, and so on until
one has absorbed the entire history, progression and founding of one's
field.  It's rapidly becoming apparent that four years of college are
not enough; master's or doctoral work is necessary to truly _grok_ a
subject (and I write this as one without a master's or a doctorate).

The only workable solution, given that children of an early age are
not properly testable, is a system of like-father-like-son.  Which,
fortunately enough, ties into mankind's proclivities enough that it'll
probably work out nicely enough.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
America may be unique in being a country which has leapt from barbarism
to decadence without touching civilisation.               --John O'Hara

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 22:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Aug  8 21:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] getting rid of a body (was Re: Yes PM)
In-Reply-To: <200208050251.MBX00823@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20808.205731.7y1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson says
> <snip the drawbacks of the various ways>
> I still think my method of lime, sulfur, and water works 
> rather well - I remember the demonstration we received with a 
> pig carcass - the bones and teeth were gone after a week 
> underground with the mixture.
>
> If you're lucky, and you work near a steel mill, there are 
> tanks where they recycle the sulfuric acid - they keep it at 
> about 18 M.  Drop someone in that (watch the splash) and 
> there won't be anything left.  The recycling process will 
> take care of the impurities.

Actually, thee are body parts (fats and things like gallstones) that
can survive that. So can *fillings*.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 03:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 02:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <m3sn1p7yq7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <m3sn1p7yq7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020809190630.A3949@freeman.little-possums.net>

Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> You can feed a man on 2 1/2 acres?  What would you be planting?

That's not quite the statement I made, since I was talking more like
100 farms of 100 hectares feeding ten thousand.  Your question implies
a single farm feeding one person who has to look after it all
themselves with small-scale tools.

With that qualification in mind, just about anything.  Each person
needs to eat about 0.3 tonnes per year of a balanced diet.


A potato crop of 30-40 tonnes per hectare is normal.  Cereal crops
tend to yield 3-5 tonnes per hectare.  Legumes typically yield 2-3
tonnes of edible produce per hectare.  Apples often yield 30 tonnes
per hectare.

Grain-fed meat animals typically eat about 15-20 times their dressed
carcass mass during growth, so about 0.2 tonnes per hectare including
both crops and feedlot space.  Farmed fish seem to do better, at about
3-5 times their mass of fillets in feed, for about 1 edible tonne per
year inclusive of feed.


You could devote 30% of the crop capacity to feed meat animals, 15% to
dairy animals and egg-laying chickens, 5% to fish, 10% to cereals for
human consumption, 10% to potatoes or similar basic staples, 10% to
legumes of various varieties, 5% for fruits such as apples, and 15% to
various other items that I haven't thought of yet.

With that mix, on average per hectare per day you could expect:

220 g of red meat
130 g of fish
260 g of eggs
1.4 L of milk
50 g of butter
1.4 kg of cereal products
6.8 kg of potatoes (!)
550 g of peas, beans, or lentils
4.1 kg of apples (or other fruits)

If you don't think this is enough to support a person for a day, you
*really* need to go on a diet ;)

Naturally, I'm not a dietician and the percentages were just plucked
out of the air.  Feel free to change them.  In particular, you should
reallocate heaps of area from human-edible produce to other purposes;
people don't need to eat anywhere near that much.

The yields themselves were *not* plucked out of the air, they were
gathered and cross-checked from various agricultural reports while I
should have been building a document control system today.


I'm actually rather surprised: my original estimate was based on just
eyeballing Tasmania's map and guessing how much of it feeds Tasmania's
population.  It looks like my original estimate of 1 hectare per
person was grossly high.  Based on these firmer and more authoritative
figures, 0.2 hectares per person should suffice.

And remember, this is all based on *current* technology, and with
little economic incentive for high yields per unit area of land.
(Ongoing expenses are far more significant than land values)

By TL15 you can almost certainly synthesize everything you need,
including getting the texture just right.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 03:08:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 02:08:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <3D53003A.1070102@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D53003A.1070102@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020809190742.B3949@freeman.little-possums.net>

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> You can't compare these, and which model is correct depends on which
> rule set you use.

Isn't this a bit deplorable, considering that they're all meant to be
describing the same universe?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 03:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 02:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020808214249.025e5ec8@192.168.0.1>
References: <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <m3sn1p7yq7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20020808214249.025e5ec8@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020809190909.C3949@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> As to what they grow to get that yield, there are things that will
>do it,

Yes, just about anything will do it.  You don't need to resort to
algae.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 03:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  9 02:12:03 2002
Subject: Growing Food (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization)
In-Reply-To: <20020809014903.25005.59602.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17d5nW-0004bi-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>) wrote:

> Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:
> > 
> > That's broken.  An average hectare per person assigned to food
> > production is ample even with current technology and without trying
> > hard.  Tech level 15 should be able to do *much* better.
> 
> You can feed a man on 2 1/2 acres?  What would you be planting?

Lots of stuff.  Soybeans, rice, and various greens and root veggies 
should work at that size.  IIRC, that's also enough room to do for   
to do high density carp ponds where the fish are feed agricultural 
waste.  There are lots of high density farming options, and I believe 
the minimums are actually more like 1.5-2 acres person.  OTOH, 
you can't grow beef or pretty much any meat other than carp at 
that density.  

Also, if you are willing to do hydroponics you can do multiple levels 
hydroponic trays.  With 1.5 meters between vertically stacked 
trays, you could grow 2.5 acres of food in a 1.5 acre warehouse 
that was 3 meters tall and still have space to harvest everything.    

Finally, I'm guessing vat meat will be no more than TL 11 and that's 
likely not going to take much space at all.  

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 03:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 02:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Stripmime
In-Reply-To: <B97873B1.69033%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B97873B1.69033%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020809191300.D3949@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> Someone on the TML kindly modified Stripmime to allow messages without a
> content type to get posted on the list (A fix for Leonard).

That would be me.  Locating and sending it now.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 03:31:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 02:31:13 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <001a01c23f4b$b6502d00$7400a8c0@matt>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <001a01c23f4b$b6502d00$7400a8c0@matt>
Message-ID: <20020809193011.F3949@freeman.little-possums.net>

Matthew Bond wrote:
> Basically your position is that due to the ready availability of
> cheap fusion power and the relatively small volume of interstellar
> trade, an isolated system is still essentially self-sufficient in
> most circumstances. Fair enough.

I'm saying they don't even need cheap fusion power.  Solar insolation
is good enough.


> However, the original post on this 'Failed World' topic was regarding their
> prevalence in TNE.

Actually, the original post was:
  >> How serious is the trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took place
  >> because the small island of England was not self-sufficient in either
  >> agricultural or industrial matters, but I don't think this situation
  >> will arise on many _planets_.  
  >
  > cough cough
  >        How many dinky airless rockballs with large populations do the world 
  > generation rules permit? 

Unless you mean this one:
  >         I know that they won't starve. Out of curiosity, I decided to work out what 
  > might happen though. 

In both cases, it was purely the isolation effect that we were
considering, not any active bombardment or aggressive forces.

In particular, I am not remotely interested in any effects based on
particular aspects of the TNE setting history.  If you want to know
more about my opinion on that subject, search the archives.  I will
elaborate no further.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 03:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 02:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEOIEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <20020806203758.D28821@freeman.little-possums.net> <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEOIEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20020809193421.G3949@freeman.little-possums.net>

Terry Carlino wrote:
> In the second case they will see the flash and know something's
> coming, but it still might take days for the attacker's units to
> form up and weeks for them to actually attack.

Are you saying that the tracking systems will lose them in the
meantime?  That may be so, but surely the attacker must form their
plans based on the probability that they are still being tracked?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christian K)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Lawyers should look into this...
References: <200208090248.MJH00974@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <002801c23f8c$4e3199c0$0664a8c0@bigdarkone>

From: "John T. Kwon"
> "Glenn M. Goffin" says
> >Where did you get your silent gauss rifle?  The bullets in
> >mine always make a boom as they break the sound barrier.
> Actually, I've fired quite a few rifle rounds with a
> suppressor - the crack is noticeable - but depending on where
> you are downrange, it may be impossible to localize the
> source of the firing.  The crack is heard as the round passes
> you by - if the round misses far to the right of you, you
> will hear the sound to your right, even if the shooter is
> nowhere to the right.
> I would be that the gauss rifle would sound like this, except
> that the sound from the firing point would be non-existent.
Actually a Suppressor works by slowing bullets under soundspeed so they
don't break the soundbarrier. So considering the tremendous high speed on
wich a Gaussgun relies to get its punch it would be more or less sensless to
slow it down. And since laser are Loud as Hell if you want silent weaps use
em in HardVac or chemical supressed ones. (or MagAccel with low speeds)

my two cents ;)

Chris



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: COMET BUSTERS
Message-ID: <eg57lukcjjik00lqt50t7684vf8f6anab3@4ax.com>

I sent you email requesting a real name to attach to Comet Busters, as
Freelance Traveller policy is to have either a real name (preferred) or a
plausible pseudonym (allowed on a case-by-case basis, liberal decision
criteria) attached to an article, and Comet Busters is definitely worth
seeing in Freelance Traveller.  Do I assume from lack of reply that you are
_not_ interested in seeing it there?



Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture 
Enterprises, 1977-2000.  Use of the trademark in 
this notice and in the referenced materials is not 
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.freelancetraveller.com
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
editor@freelancetraveller.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <p04330103b9720a71cb73@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20809.011127.5m5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> It seemed a good deal.  You aren't first into battle (you aren't any 
> more likely to get killed since the unfrozen guys get killed first) 
> and you don't have to deal with boredom between battles.  Odds are 
> you sign up, get frozen, and wake up with all your pay waiting for 
> you.

Unless you missed the clause in the contract that calculates your
"term" by the time you spend *thawed*. Mind you, it's legal, because
you *do* get paid for the frozen time, though at a lower rate.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:26:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:26:31 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <011801c23adc$bdd0f780$1d17bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <20809.024856.2h6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>
>> >Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
>>  >big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.
>>
>> What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other sensor
> systems
>> you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?
>
>
> Mines, even of a CAPTOR type, don't have much area coverage. You'd need a
> lot of them to cover an area, though orbits and other choke points are a
> possibility.

There's always the "nuclear shotgun" approach. 

Basicly, a nuke that is being used to convery something (styrofoam
works!) into a plasma to push a bunch of projectiles. 

Someone posted a design on rec.arts.sf.science years back, and I copied
it here. 

The basic idea is that you get a conical (or spherical, though conical
is more efficient) of fractional c BBs. 

This can make life very hazardous throughout a *large* volume. 

Is that a commsat, a chunk of scrap from a battle, or a mine? And can
you afford the time to avoid coming within the mutiple *thousand* km
kill range of all such objects in approaching a planet?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:27:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:27:01 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <133.124edb2b.2a7daff5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20809.025428.5B0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>  >> What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other 
>  >> sensor systems 
>  >> you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?
>  >
>  >I recommend you read Bruce Alan Macintosh's Definitive Sensor Rules for 
>  >T4/FF&S2 for a complete discussion of sensors.  Passive sensors IRL 
>  >would have ranges in space significanly better than those of active 
>  >sensors such as radar.
>  >
>  >http://traveller.mu.org/house/sensor.rules.html
>
> Great site, thanks.  But using this it looks like mines are right out.  I 
> wish it were so easy to detect incoming asteroids and meteors in RL.

It *is*. Bruce based the figures on *real world* sensors.

The trick is that being above the atmosphere makes a *big* difference.

Currently we have three sorts of sensors available for that. 

1. large area sensors under an atmosphere.
2. Small area wide-field sensors in satellites. 
3. larger area narrow field sensors in a couple of satellites

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:27:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:27:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Firearms in Vacumn
In-Reply-To: <3D4BD8C7.43D0D0AA@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20809.030247.9k4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> 
>>
>> >>
>> >> Do you still have any copies of The Model Rocketeer? Mine got lost a
>> >> long time ago :-(
>> >
>> > I think so, I'll have a look next time I'm cleaning that part of the 
> garage.
>> > Anything in particular
>> > or do you want that article on underwater launches?
>> 
>> Well, I'd like to have a set of the silly things, or at least a decent
>> scan of them.
>> 
>
> Leonard, I don't mind scanning a few articles, but we're talking YEARS of 
> issues(14 IIRC). I don't
> have the time to scan them all, nor the inclination to give them up. I will 
> however look for that
> article.

Don't bother. That one I remember, and it doesn't have that much of
interest to me. 

It's all the stuff I *don't* recall that I miss. Some nice technical
articles, some songs, all sorts of other stuff that I probably don't
recall right now.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:27:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:27:54 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <E17bJb8-0007Wi-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20809.031047.1I2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>
>> In mail you write:
>> 
>>> Time-Travel is a huge no-no. Do I have something against it? Yes and
>>> no. It's entertaining and fascinating to speculate on, but it would
>>> seriously unbalance a campaign. I also like the idea that
>>> consequences of one's actions are irreversable...Time Travel far too
>>> often gives one an out to correct mistakes.
>> 
>> Well, the theoretical work that physicists have done on the
>> possibility of time travel in the real world says that two things will
>> be true if it's possible:
>> 
>> 1. You can't travel back before the instant the machione is first
>>    activated.
>> 
>> 2. You can't alter the past. You'd have free will to the exact extent
>>    that you *don't* know what happened. 
>
> Actually, from what I've read, those are only true *if* causality is 
> always preserved.  If it is possible to utterly toss causality out the 
> window, then time travel can involve whatever you want.  It's 
> interesting to me that preservation of causality seems something 
> almost all phyicists assume to be true w/o having any absolute 
> necessity that the world actually operates this way.  We haven't 
> seen any obvious causality violations, but until last century we also 
> never saw any obvious relativistic effects.  Personally, I think the 
> universe would be a considerably more interesting (in all possible 
> meanings of this word) place is causality is not strictly preserved.

Actuallity, there are two kinds of causality. If local causality is
preserved, then time travel isn't possible at all.

If *local* causality isn't preserved, but global causality is, then you
get the situation I described.

If global causality isn't preserved, then you can have effects without
causes and a number of other things. And they basicly make hash of the
very *idea* of there being natural laws. Which is why scientists are so
reluctant to accept causality violations. 

Causality is *very* basic. 

ps. What I described *also* requires that relativity hold. 

You can have any two out of the following three:

local causality
relativity
FTL

If relativity holds, FTL *is* time travel.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Lawyers should look into this...
Message-ID: <200208091057.MJX01100@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Christian K" says
>Actually a Suppressor works by slowing bullets under 
>soundspeed so they don't break the soundbarrier.

Only in certain weapons.  In rifles, they only reduce the 
apparent sound of the weapon itself (reducing or altering the 
gas expansion sound impulse).  The bullet itself is not 
intended to be reduced in velocity.

The quietest weapons are designed with a subsonic round 
(ideally, a bullet that is just below the speed of sound).  
But they have the shortest range.

>And since laser are Loud as Hell

I've heard an Avco industrial laser in operation - the only 
sound was the power conditioning - I didn't hear any sound 
from the beam.

________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:59:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:59:28 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <20809.031047.1I2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <E17bJb8-0007Wi-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3D54490D.22627.620186C@localhost>

On 9 Aug 2002, at 3:10, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> You can have any two out of the following three:

> local causality
> relativity
> FTL

> If relativity holds, FTL *is* time travel.

Try this for an interesting take on things

http://www.discover.com/june_02/featuniverse.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:59:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:59:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: COMET BUSTERS
Message-ID: <200208091058.MJX01143@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Jeff Zeitlin <editor@freelancetraveller.com>  
>I sent you email requesting a real name to attach to Comet 
>Busters...


I think this is for someone else...
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 05:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 04:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
Message-ID: <200208091101.MJX01284@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson
>Causality is *very* basic. 


Wheeler has shown that there is no proof that causality is a 
requirement of this universe as a basic law.  It makes a nice 
thought, but by no means is it a requirement.

The two-slit experiment, played out over interstellar 
distances, or even across a tabletop in a lab, was shown in 
1987 to indicate that causality is violated on a regular 
basis.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 05:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 04:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Stripmime
In-Reply-To: <B97873B1.69033%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20809.034100.0C2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Someone on the TML kindly modified Stripmime to allow messages without a
> content type to get posted on the list (A fix for Leonard).  If that person
> still has a copy, could they please contact me.  I've lost the original that
> you sent me.

If it runs on Intel family CPUs under DOS, Windoze, or OS/2, I'd be
interested in a copy..

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 05:34:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 04:34:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Professor Barker??
In-Reply-To: <000601c23c02$0d81b280$08984c51@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <20809.042448.8M6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>>Depart now and you forever separate
>>>yourselves from the vital gaming legacies of James Dunnigan,
>>>Steve Jackson, Gary Gygax, Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank
>>>Chadwick, Andrew Keith, William Keith, John Harshman,
>>>Professor Barker, and Richard Tucholka.
>>
>>Professor Barker {?} info please.
>>
>>Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
>
> Empire of the Petal Throne!
>
> It was a early D&D derivative by the above mentioned prof.
>
> It had a very oriental feel with him having a background in linguistics (and
> it counted as sci-fi due to the strange background history... Humans and
> other aliens try to terraform a planet, much to the anoyance of it
> inhabitants, entire solar system disappears into a void, leaving everybody
> up the creak, a few thousand years regression (theres no iron on planet!)
> and alternate cultural development  later and enter the PCs.
>
> It spawn numerous expansions, and two  novels bu M.A.R. Barker himself.
>
> Major prob with this world? pronouncing the words! He did a Tolkien and
> created his own languages and scripts.

There are fonts available for the main alphabet (Ev-something), and
there's even unicode space reserved for it.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 05:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Aug  9 04:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <200208091101.MJX01284@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D5452F6.32566.646D18B@localhost>

On 9 Aug 2002, at 7:01, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Leonard Erickson
> >Causality is *very* basic. 

> Wheeler has shown that there is no proof that causality is a 
> requirement of this universe as a basic law.  It makes a nice 
> thought, but by no means is it a requirement.

Not quite. If I understand Wheeler correctly, causality is not violated as 
such (cause still precedes effect). Its just cause is not determined until the 
effect is observed.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 05:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christian K)
Date: Fri Aug  9 04:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lawyers should look into this...
References: <200208091057.MJX01100@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <006601c23f9b$9abfb150$0664a8c0@bigdarkone>

From: "John T. Kwon"
> Only in certain weapons.  In rifles, they only reduce the
> apparent sound of the weapon itself (reducing or altering the
> gas expansion sound impulse).  The bullet itself is not
> intended to be reduced in velocity.
You're absolutely right there my mistake i didn't make clear that it only
applys to certain weapons.


<snip>
> >And since laser are Loud as Hell
>
> I've heard an Avco industrial laser in operation - the only
> sound was the power conditioning - I didn't hear any sound
> from the beam.
Well ok sofar as my Physiks prof told me and  i did some research in it. A
High powered laser.. (not the ones used for cutting they are actually fairly
low powered in comparison) well the lasers we have in GT that is fir a
milisecond impulse off realy high power. According to what i read so far a
short recently high and hot powered lasershot would heat the air it passes
threw and in its wake even could create a vacum. The air popping back would
make a sound more like a plopp and by far nothing a bullet sounds like but
it wouldn't been the SF Film screech and it wouldn't been silent. Just some
kind off sound recently high powered laser would make more/louder sounds due
to more superheated ionized or whatever that word in english is Air.

Thats what i read so far... i could be completele wrong here since i'm not a
Physiks prof or teacher or something like that but for me it sounded
sensefull.

Chris



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 06:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Aug  9 05:18:02 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <001a01c23f4b$b6502d00$7400a8c0@matt> <20020809193011.F3949@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt>

Timothy Little wrote:
> Matthew Bond wrote:
>> However, the original post on this 'Failed World' topic was
>> regarding their prevalence in TNE.
>
> Actually, the original post was:
>   >> How serious is the trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took
> place   >> because the small island of England was not self-
> sufficient in either   >> agricultural or industrial matters, but I
> don't think this situation   >> will arise on many _planets_.
>   >
>   > cough cough
>   >        How many dinky airless rockballs with large populations do
> the world   > generation rules permit?
>
> Unless you mean this one:
>   >         I know that they won't starve. Out of curiosity, I
> decided to work out what   > might happen though.
>
> In both cases, it was purely the isolation effect that we were
> considering, not any active bombardment or aggressive forces.
>
> In particular, I am not remotely interested in any effects based on
> particular aspects of the TNE setting history.  If you want to know
> more about my opinion on that subject, search the archives.  I will
> elaborate no further.

Actually I was referring to the immediately prior post in the tread, by
Flykiller@aol.com...

[Quote]
>> How
 >> serious is the trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took place
because
 >> the small island of England was not self-sufficient in either
agricultural
 >> or industrial matters, but I don't think this situation will arise on
many
 >> _planets_.  If trade is truly a major issue and lifeline then a massed
herd
 >> of raiders will be crippling regardless of any other fleet elements
 >> employed.  But I think most planets with populations sufficient to have
 >> significant trade connections will have huge internal capacites to
produce
 >> what they need anyway, and huge reserves of whatever they have to import
 >> (consider our Strategic Oil Reserve).
 >
 >If planets are so self sufficient, then why does TNE describe planets
failing
 >because they were cut off from interstellar trade?

Don't know.  Doesn't make much sense to me.  I can see it happening here and
there of course, but not en masse.  TNE may state it, but that's not
necessarily a reason to just swallow it.
_______________________________________________

[/Quote]

This post does mention TNE.

Your arguement was that irrespective of trade all planets can (perhaps even
'must') be self sufficient. That may well be the case under normal
circumstances. In the TNE setting things were not 'normal' at the time of
the failure of these worlds.

Thats all I'm saying... given sufficient stress to the system (irrespective
of which particular Traveller setting you use), you can Fail any planet that
isn't capable of supporting life without TL9+ intervention.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 06:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Aug  9 05:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020809190909.C3949@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020808214249.025e5ec8@192.168.0.1>
 <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
 <02080313391901.00601@linux>
 <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <02080817101100.00601@linux>
 <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <m3sn1p7yq7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020808214249.025e5ec8@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020809081548.00ce0780@192.168.0.1>

At 07:09 PM 8/9/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
> > As to what they grow to get that yield, there are things that will
> >do it,
>Yes, just about anything will do it.  You don't need to resort to
>algae.

The algae came to mind quickly because it's such a complete food source, 
and easy to grow in non-ag situations.

It wasn't worth my time to dig out more complete data on the subject.
Thanks for providing it.

To sum up, the higher the tech level, the easier it will be on rockballs to 
survive independently.
Higher tech level rockballs (one that sustain their own TL C+ industry) 
will have no problems supporting large populations food wise.
Lower tech level rockballs can do it, it will take more effort, space, etc.
Easier to do if you just worry about feeding them, less so, but doable, if 
you want a diverse diet.

If you start kicking the support functions of their civilization (for what 
ever reason), they will have problems of varying degrees.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 06:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 05:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT:  December ARPC shoot
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020807104836.009f6c50@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20809.052524.8r5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 04:58 PM 8/6/02 -0700, you wrote:
>>Good to hear!  I'm desperately going to try to make it up again finally, 
>>as the financial situation has improved a little.  Providing of course 
>>that I can get a new roomate and don't have to keep paying twice the rent 
>>like I am now :(  Also, I'm going to invite Erin again, and maybe I can 
>>get my "girlfriend" to go too ;)
>
> I too, shall try to make it up.  I'll be at OryCon the week before that (as 
> Gaming GOH, if you can believe that, so unless you can give me rifde, no 
> way I can afford to fly twice in that length of time.

No, Orycon is *two* weeks before the shoot 11/22-11/24. Says so on the
form I still have to mail in!

> -- 
>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
>
> "I'm just trying to evict them. Frogs never pay."
>                              - Rose Platt
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 06:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew W. Helton)
Date: Fri Aug  9 05:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Lawyers should look into this...
In-Reply-To: <002801c23f8c$4e3199c0$0664a8c0@bigdarkone>
Message-ID: <000001c23fa4$024d9320$fd00a8c0@sulaco>

Christian,

		Muzzle suppressors do nothing to slow the projectile:
they are merely a device to cool and slow the propellant the gasses to
reduce the report.

	There are types of integral suppressors (Sten MKIIs, Sterling
MKV/L34A1, MP5SD5) which do bleed some of the high pressure gasses from
the barrel itself into the suppressor while the projectile is still in
the bore. These suppressors do not require special subsonic ammunition
in order for truly silenced shooting.

				Best,

					Matthew W. Helton


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 07:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  9 06:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Do I have to Yahoo! ?
Message-ID: <155.122f2469.2a851759@aol.com>

>Could someone tell me if it is necessary to follow these instructions to
>subscribe to The JTAS
>
>John Scarlett

John,

All you have to do is go to <http://jtas.sjgames.com/> 

and click on "Subscribe" then follow the directions.

You can look at a sample issue without subscribing if you like. 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 07:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 06:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
Message-ID: <200208091312.MKB02981@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance" says
>Not quite. If I understand Wheeler correctly, causality is 
>not violated as such (cause still precedes effect). Its just 
>cause is not determined until the effect is observed.

the problem is that the nature of the observation will force 
a photon to the left or the right - an observation that is 
taken perhaps a billion years after the photon departed. 
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 08:22:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Aug  9 07:22:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
Message-ID: <F24qs1wP7vvqgqGTwgT0000593c@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     The current Frontier Wars thread has given me an excuse to post a 
little something.  Besides, it sure beats having Finster carom rocks off my 
old grey pate (You know, for a three-year-old, that little SOB sure has a 
great arm.  He nailed me with a rock at a good 25 feet yesterday.  If he 
ever gets his hands on any firearms, we'll have to change his name to 
Ditzie.)
     To my addled mind, Zho strategy over the last 6 centuries has been 
pretty simple; deflect Imperial expansion away from the Consulate and 
stabilize the border.  After looking at the maps, even before the Zhos got 
their "make-over" from mind-rapers to well adjusted psionicists in Late CT, 
this strategy was pretty self evident.
     Oddly enough, this happened to be the Imperial strategy against the 
Alsan!
     The Consulate has been active, albeit thin on the ground, in the 
Marches for quite a long time, certainly from only a few centuries after the 
Darrians had their little "accident". (Did Tanis' odd flares, when viewed 
from a great distance, lure Zho exploration towards the Marches?)
     The Consulate's goals are two-fold; first evict the Imperium from the 
Foreven and Ziafrfplians Sectors and a portion of the Marches, then create a 
Dark Nebula-style buffer zone of small polities to act as a shield.  The 
first goal has been accompished.  The second has been only partially 
completed.
     Inserting the five Frontier Wars into this overall strategic framework 
becomes an easy task:

     First Frontier War - Eviction of Imperial colonies and elimination of 
Imperial client state relationships within Consulate territory.  A Zho 
success.
     Second Frontier War - Continued evictions.  Buffer zone begins to form. 
  A Zho success.
     Third Frontier War - Majority of the buffer zone created.  A Zho 
success.
     Fourth Frontier War - Launched prematurely by local authorities after a 
period increased tensions.  A draw.
     Fifth Frontier War -  An attempt to complete the buffer zone by 
detaching the Jewell subsector and other small slices of Imperial territory. 
  This would continue the buffer zone coreward until it contacted Vargr 
space.

     The Zho's three main offensives fit this idea neatly.  First, they "pin 
down" the Jewels.  Second, a sickle stroke through the Efate region to cut 
the Jewels off.  Third, a deep strike at Rhylanor to gain the war's supreme 
bargaining chip.
     If all had gone well, the Jewels would be slowly ground down by a 
series of planetary seiges, cutoff from the rest of the Imperium by Zho 
forces in the Efate region, and eventually abandoned by the Imperium at the 
negotiation table in return for the Zhodani evacuation of Rhylanor.
     Of course, no plan survives contact with the enemy, but the Consulate's 
hubris can be forgiven.  After all, they had won every Frontier War prior to 
the Fifth.  To paraphrase Moltke, the Consulate planned well, but didn't 
quite plan enough.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 08:24:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Aug  9 07:24:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra, Zhakirov and Antiama
References: <20020730221303.16806.79173.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001701c23fb1$0020b520$5d5d8690@computer>

Ah! I think I've worked out the real reason why I don't think that
Arbellatra was responsible for the marriage of Zhakirov and Antiama.

My objection is not so much the logical problems, which, while they exist,
can be overcome, but actually the dramatic ones.

It's kind of like having Macbeth showing up in Hamlet, and making the plot
happen. Essentially, by giving such an active role to Arbellatra, the story
of Zhakirov and Antiama is weakened.

The backstories of the OTU are, in fact, stories, and dramatic
considerations can and should be taken into account in working out "what
really happened". Where two possible courses are logically possible, the one
that makes the better story should be preferred, IMHO.

YMMV, of course.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 08:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 07:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] cause and effect
Message-ID: <200208091428.MKE00298@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 09:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  9 08:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Lawyers should look into this...
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEELPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
>"Glenn M. Goffin" says
>>Where did you get your silent gauss rifle?  The bullets in
>>mine always make a boom as they break the sound barrier.

[excellent discussion deleted]

>I would be that the gauss rifle would sound like this, except
>that the sound from the firing point would be non-existent.

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>Most of the sound associated with weapons fire is the sound of the powder
>going off.  The crack of the bullet is negligible.  For example, a silenced
>.22LR is nearly silent in operation.
>
>A 4mm gauss round would make a high pitched *crack* audible only to those
>near the flight path.

That works for me.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 09:38:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  9 08:38:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra, Zhakirov and Antiama
In-Reply-To: <001701c23fb1$0020b520$5d5d8690@computer>
References: <20020730221303.16806.79173.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020809080818.009f13d0@mindspring.com>

At 12:27 AM 8/10/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Ah! I think I've worked out the real reason why I don't think that
>Arbellatra was responsible for the marriage of Zhakirov and Antiama.
>
>My objection is not so much the logical problems, which, while they exist,
>can be overcome, but actually the dramatic ones.
>
>It's kind of like having Macbeth showing up in Hamlet, and making the plot
>happen. Essentially, by giving such an active role to Arbellatra, the story
>of Zhakirov and Antiama is weakened.
>
>The backstories of the OTU are, in fact, stories, and dramatic
>considerations can and should be taken into account in working out "what
>really happened". Where two possible courses are logically possible, the one
>that makes the better story should be preferred, IMHO.

I was a bit unclear.  I meant to show that Arbellatra set the stage by 
weakening the Solomani grip on power at the court that had led to the Civil 
War in the first place.  I imagine many nobles were stripped of their 
titles, and those titles passed to others.  She also, IMTU, shook up the 
bureaucracy and made it more effective by elevating Vilani business people 
to positions of authority, complete with the appropriate titles.

Plot hook.  Admiral Arbellatra, Regent of the Imperium, has elevated a 
Vilani sector accountant to Minister of Finance, replacing a corrupt noble 
who held the position previously.  The Duke understands that if his 
dealings are examined, he'll spend the rest of his life on a TL2 exile 
world.  His only hope is to prevent the new Minister from reaching 
Capitial.  The PCs are the Marines and starmen sent to escort the new 
Minister and his family to the Regent.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 09:38:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  9 08:38:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
In-Reply-To: <F24qs1wP7vvqgqGTwgT0000593c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020809081646.009f77c0@mindspring.com>

At 02:21 PM 8/9/02 +0000, you wrote:

My dear Whipsnade..

>     The current Frontier Wars thread has given me an excuse to post a 
> little something.  Besides, it sure beats having Finster carom rocks off 
> my old grey pate (You know, for a three-year-old, that little SOB sure 
> has a great arm.  He nailed me with a rock at a good 25 feet 
> yesterday.  If he ever gets his hands on any firearms, we'll have to 
> change his name to Ditzie.)

I suggest constant suggestions that the young hellion requires an immediate 
bath.  The word bath sets of such a primal flight response in small 
children that I'm covinced that at the dawn of mankind we were hunted by 
some horror whose call was "bath!  baatthh!"  Young Finster  shall spend 
the remainder of the occupation hiding behind the couch, surviving on dust 
bunnies and old hard candies.

>     To my addled mind, Zho strategy over the last 6 centuries has been 
> pretty simple; deflect Imperial expansion away from the Consulate and 
> stabilize the border.  After looking at the maps, even before the Zhos 
> got their "make-over" from mind-rapers to well adjusted psionicists in 
> Late CT, this strategy was pretty self evident.
>     Oddly enough, this happened to be the Imperial strategy against the 
> Alsan!

Good eye!  This is very true of the later ABWs.

>     The Consulate has been active, albeit thin on the ground, in the 
> Marches for quite a long time, certainly from only a few centuries after 
> the Darrians had their little "accident". (Did Tanis' odd flares, when 
> viewed from a great distance, lure Zho exploration towards the Marches?)
>     The Consulate's goals are two-fold; first evict the Imperium from the 
> Foreven and Ziafrfplians Sectors and a portion of the Marches, then 
> create a Dark Nebula-style buffer zone of small polities to act as a 
> shield.  The first goal has been accompished.  The second has been only 
> partially completed.

But can be considered a success.  There have been no Imperial attempts to 
establish colonies in Zhodani space for 700 years.

>     Fifth Frontier War -  An attempt to complete the buffer zone by 
> detaching the Jewell subsector and other small slices of Imperial 
> territory.  This would continue the buffer zone coreward until it 
> contacted Vargr space.
>
>     The Zho's three main offensives fit this idea neatly.  First, they 
> "pin down" the Jewels.  Second, a sickle stroke through the Efate region 
> to cut the Jewels off.  Third, a deep strike at Rhylanor to gain the 
> war's supreme bargaining chip.
>     If all had gone well, the Jewels would be slowly ground down by a 
> series of planetary seiges, cutoff from the rest of the Imperium by Zho 
> forces in the Efate region, and eventually abandoned by the Imperium at 
> the negotiation table in return for the Zhodani evacuation of Rhylanor.
>     Of course, no plan survives contact with the enemy, but the 
> Consulate's hubris can be forgiven.  After all, they had won every 
> Frontier War prior to the Fifth.  To paraphrase Moltke, the Consulate 
> planned well, but didn't quite plan enough.

The also ran into a wild card: Norris.  You can't predict an unexpected 
enemy commander that is a bloody genius and has figured out your plan.  I 
always wondered if Norris' branch of Naval Intelligence hadn't actually 
learned bits and pieces of the Zhodani plan.

The Zho's over-reached themselves, in my opinion.  They didn't properly 
understand the strength of the Imperium's "defense in depth" concept, nor 
the tenacity of local forces.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 09:39:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  9 08:39:04 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Lawyers should look into this...
In-Reply-To: <200208090248.MJH00974@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020809082853.009ea2a0@mindspring.com>

At 10:48 PM 8/8/02 -0400, you wrote:
>"Glenn M. Goffin" says
> >Where did you get your silent gauss rifle?  The bullets in
> >mine always make a boom as they break the sound barrier.
>
>Actually, I've fired quite a few rifle rounds with a
>suppressor - the crack is noticeable - but depending on where
>you are downrange, it may be impossible to localize the
>source of the firing.  The crack is heard as the round passes
>you by - if the round misses far to the right of you, you
>will hear the sound to your right, even if the shooter is
>nowhere to the right.

The sound made by a round passing close by is sort of a "thwip"  You only 
hear it when it is close to you, so when crawling through razor-wire at Ft. 
Benning, the 7.62mm rounds being fired above your head sound *damn* 
close.  The loudest sound by far is the weapon itself.

>I would be that the gauss rifle would sound like this, except
>that the sound from the firing point would be non-existent.

*thwip*thwip*thwip*thwip*thwip*thwip*thwip*


-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Animals who are not penguins can only wish they were.
                          -Chicago reader, 10/15/82



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 09:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  9 08:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Arbellatra
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMELPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
>
>As a matter of fact, I am unconvinced that the modern
>`generalist-to-18' model is long for this world.  I think that as
[deletion]
> It's rapidly becoming apparent that four years of college are
>not enough; master's or doctoral work is necessary to truly _grok_ a
>subject (and I write this as one without a master's or a doctorate).
>
>The only workable solution, given that children of an early age are
>not properly testable, is a system of like-father-like-son.  Which,
>fortunately enough, ties into mankind's proclivities enough that it'll
>probably work out nicely enough.

Like-father-like-son destroyed the Roman empire, but that doesn't mean we
won't see it again.  I think that the vast majority of people will always be
generalists, because most of human life requires a general knowledge of how
to do things.  There may very well be some elites that develop a
generational focus on extremely complex subjects, but not everyone by a long
shot.

That's probably what the seneschal class does, and we've never yet had a
character generation system for the seneschal -- probably because there are
no retired seneschals to go adventuring.  They are born into the class,
study all their lives to synthesize, abstract, and communicate vast
quantities of information, and do exactly that until they contract
Alzheimer's and are debriefed in nursing homes.

--Glenn

"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher
a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts,
build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders,
cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure,
program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently and die gallantly.
Specialization is for insects."

-- Robert A. Heinlein


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 09:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  9 08:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEMACEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>
>     The current Frontier Wars thread has given me an excuse to post a
>little something.  Besides, it sure beats having Finster carom rocks off my

[excellent analysis deleted]
>
  >  Fifth Frontier War -  An attempt to complete the buffer zone by
>detaching the Jewell subsector and other small slices of Imperial
territory.
>  This would continue the buffer zone coreward until it contacted Vargr
>space.
>
>     The Zho's three main offensives fit this idea neatly.  First, they
"pin
>down" the Jewels.  Second, a sickle stroke through the Efate region to cut
>the Jewels off.  Third, a deep strike at Rhylanor to gain the war's supreme
>bargaining chip.
>     If all had gone well, the Jewels would be slowly ground down by a
>series of planetary seiges, cutoff from the rest of the Imperium by Zho
>forces in the Efate region, and eventually abandoned by the Imperium at the
>negotiation table in return for the Zhodani evacuation of Rhylanor.

Dear Mr. Whipsnade:

I heartily endorse your basic analysis, which must be further evidence for
the common belief that great minds think alike -- er, I mean, that Traveller
players need to get a life -- no wait a bit...

Anyway, if the boardgame of Fifth Frontier War is a good simulation, it is
almost impossible for the Imperial player to avoid losing the Jewells in a
few turns.  The Zhodani player has enough resources to overwhelm the Jewells
and still take the 300 points needed to achieve an automatic victory (not
that it's easy, but it's doable).

So the Jewells would not have to be ground down by planetary sieges.  Jewell
itself is always a battle, but the Mongo National Guard will flee in terror
after some bombing, and Esalin, Emerald, and Ruby have no defense forces to
speak of (those TL 8 motorized infantry on Esalin are more terrified that
the MNG, but can't flee as fast).  Lysen and Grant likewise need only to be
occupied.

One Zhodani fleet should go directly to Jewell for a major space and ground
fight.  Two smaller fleets should take the rest of the cluster (one takes
Emerald and Ruby, the other Mongo and Esalin), then move on to Grant and
Lysen, then head for Regina (which is pretty easy to take).  Phase one is
complete.  Begin processing the captives!

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 10:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 09:28:03 2002
Subject: Growing Food (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization)
In-Reply-To: <E17d5nW-0004bi-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028910449.6838.ajackson@ping>

sneadj@mindspring.com writes:
 
> Lots of stuff.  Soybeans, rice, and various greens and root veggies 
> should work at that size.

Actually, 2.5 acres per person (250 people per square mile) is only a little
over the upper limit of medieval agriculture, assuming 100% arable land (which
is, obviously, a bit unrealistic).  As such, it's really not a challenge for
any TL 5+ world.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 11:09:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug  9 10:09:06 2002
Subject: [TML] test, ignore
Message-ID: <B9794537.690D6%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

This is a test of mime stripping
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 11:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug  9 10:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] test 2, ignore
Message-ID: <B9794A6F.690DF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Another test of MIME stripping
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 11:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug  9 10:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] test3, ignore
Message-ID: <B9794AF5.690E3%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Final MIME test
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 11:50:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Aug  9 10:50:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Macene Landgrab
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHIEMIILAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Little things cast big ripples; in BTC map, Macene is listed as
Depot, and in the description it is listed as the site of the
Spinward Branch of the Fleet Tactics College.  I read this and
the little guy with the pitchfork and the little guy with the
halo who sit on my shoulder started jumping up and down chortling
maniacally.

If someone wants to grab these and post 'em, go ahead


Macene

Macene is still under development and will be for decades but
stands to become Depot Spinward Marches. It is built and sited to
command the flank of any would be Zhodane, Sword Worlds, or Vagyr
incursion into Imperial space; provide, along with Rhylanor, a middle
tier main base between the frontline worlds of Regina and Lanth
and the rear hugging worlds of Aramis and Mara; and force attention
and dilution of effort on itself by any would be attackers.

Currently Macene is home to 9400 Navy personnel and their dependants, not
ship's crews to assigned ships, and the 10041 Engineering Wing who as
members of assigned military combat units are not counted in the population
totals.  By the end of the Holiday year as facilities go on line this
number will grow to 60,000 personnel and their dependants.  In addition, a
Marine Division and various assigned ships will swell this number.

Current plans will be to form Kokirrak Class dreadnaughts, One Demi
Batron from Rhylanor and one from Mora  will be joined to serve
as the core of the assigned fleet.

Planetoid monitors and Brilliant Pebble monitors will form the heart of
the fleet level defenses of the base, freeing mobile elements to counter
attack against enemy fleets
Current facilities

Amber Nine

Amber Nine is the current designation of the current center of operations
for the Navy at Macene.  It houses the SMFTC, the administrative command
for the entire system, housing and quarters for staff, port facilities for
the systems defense fleet.  It, like Frog Two is located within the 100 D
limit of Macene's star. It is scheduled to be officially named Arabella
Base Naval complex during the Holiday year celebrations.

Frog Two

Located opposite from Amber Nine, Frog Two is the headquarters for the
Op force and serves as a listening post and base against any attacks
from the opposite side.

Mnor Quad, Maor Delt

Maor quad is located above the North pole of the star and delt is above the
South pole, they serve as relayy stations

Fargo Station

Fargo Station is the original settlement of Macene,  Currently it is HQ
for the 10041 Fleet Engineering wing which is responsible for all
construction
in system.  Fargo station is also the current location for Civilian
refueling
and other amenities.

Facilities nearing completion

These are scheduled to go on line by the end of the holiday year

Amber Six: scheduled to be fitted as a Fleet command HQ.  A Marine division
will also be headquartered here and will serve as ground defense
for the entire complex

Amber One:  will being equipped for family residences and Visiting officer
quarters.

Amber Nine will have it's berthing capacity upgraded to 200,000 dton
ships and will be able to perform routine maintenance on ships

Maor Delt will be upgraded to a Squadron base.

Maor Delt will be upgrade to a fleet level communication nexus and will
support
a communications squadron.

Fargo Station will be upgraded to refit, repair, and replace Jump drive
components.

Fargo Station will assume command of deep meson emplacements guarding
Gas Giant "Pell below".

Timohee RedJack Station:  Named after Olav-Plankwell's Flag Captain, this
is planned to take over as the entry point for all non official traffic.
It will offer fuel at standard prices, and will have a commercial mall
for the families and residents of Macene command.

Diltin One: Dilitin commanded Arabella's Supply efforts, both during the war
and on her march on the Core.  The Diltin is designed to keep Depot supplied
and support it offensive actions.  It will originally be a warehousing
operation, but over time will grew to include greenhouses, carniculture, and
live food production, along with recycling and manufacturing plants.

Frog Seven:  Is scheduled to augment the facilities of Frog Two and serve as
the
site for the Spinward arm of the fleet gunnery school.  Meson gunnery is the
first school scheduled for completion

Mid term activation (three to ten years)

Dlitin Three:  A planned Headquarters and warehouse facility for Sector
fleet
maintainance.

Amber Seven:  first class to start Spinward Marches Depot Academy


________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 12:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri Aug  9 11:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : OK, Now What?
In-Reply-To: <000801c23de9$3cfa8300$c69c67cb@robert>
References: <000801c23de9$3cfa8300$c69c67cb@robert>
Message-ID: <p04330103b979b556d090@[143.232.119.186]>

At 6:05 PM +1000 8/7/02, Robert O'Connor wrote:
>John Kwon wrote:-
>>  First I keep reading that plasma weapons are not possible -
>>  the bolt would dissipate a short distance from the barrel. 
><snip>
>
>One potential problem was with dissipation, the other with
>the ridiculous energies required (there's a good line in 'Guns, Guns,
>Guns'
>comparing PGMP-like weapons to Bangalore torpedoes...)

My understanding of the argument is that plasma guns are what 
thermodynamics call heat engines.  Thermo requires (even at maximum 
possible efficiency) that energies comparble to the shot fired get 
released by the gun.  So how do you shoot w/out doing as much damage 
to the gun (or your hand).
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 12:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 11:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D53003A.1070102@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020809190742.B3949@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3D540E41.1040509@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Timothy Little wrote:
> Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
>>You can't compare these, and which model is correct depends on which
>>rule set you use.
> 
> 
> Isn't this a bit deplorable, considering that they're all meant to be
> describing the same universe?

Actually, they're not.

Each set of rules is indeed a different universe.

Hard Times describes the MT Late Rebellion universe. GT:FT describes the 
steady state 'Strephon walks out of the shower' universe. WBH describes 
an early rebellion/CT universe.

The fact that they all share remarkable similarities in background story 
is mere coincidence ;-)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 12:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Fri Aug  9 11:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020809081646.009f77c0@mindspring.com>
References: <F24qs1wP7vvqgqGTwgT0000593c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020809135406.00a8fe50@minn.net>

At 08:27 AM 8/9/2002 -0700, The Lord of the Penguins wrote:

>The also ran into a wild card: Norris.  You can't predict an unexpected 
>enemy commander that is a bloody genius and has figured out your plan.  I 
>always wondered if Norris' branch of Naval Intelligence hadn't actually 
>learned bits and pieces of the Zhodani plan.
>
>The Zho's over-reached themselves, in my opinion.  They didn't properly 
>understand the strength of the Imperium's "defense in depth" concept, nor 
>the tenacity of local forces.

The answer in my view is simple. 

Spy on the allies. I'm using the NAVINT operations in the Vargr Extents as
part of the background of my serial fiction project. (I'm up to the end of
page two in part five of FiHP.)


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 13:36:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Aug  9 12:36:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Lawyers should look into this...
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D96@USCHM203>

>Douglas Berry wrote:

>The sound made by a round passing close by is sort of a "thwip"  You only 
>hear it when it is close to you, so when crawling through razor-wire at Ft.

>Benning, the 7.62mm rounds being fired above your head sound *damn* 
>close.  The loudest sound by far is the weapon itself.

I remember working the targets at Parris Island. There was very little sound
to the .223 M16 rounds passing overhead---the snap of the rounds passing
through the target was louder. You could tell a complete miss, though.
I agree that the sound would probably only be audible to someone close to
the round's path, and be difficult to tell where it came from.

I read somewhere that snipers like to have a pole, large tree, or other
object very close to their line of site. The bullet passing by makes it
sound as if the shot has been fired from the direction of the object...
I'm sure someone else can explain the why and how of this better.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 13:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  9 12:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMELPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020809124501.009f0490@mindspring.com>

At 08:41 AM 8/9/02 -0700, you wrote:
>That's probably what the seneschal class does, and we've never yet had a
>character generation system for the seneschal -- probably because there are
>no retired seneschals to go adventuring.  They are born into the class,
>study all their lives to synthesize, abstract, and communicate vast
>quantities of information, and do exactly that until they contract
>Alzheimer's and are debriefed in nursing homes.

It would make for an interesting template.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 13:49:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  9 12:49:32 2002
Subject: [TML] test, ignore
In-Reply-To: <B9794537.690D6%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020809124700.009f1ec0@mindspring.com>

At 10:08 AM 8/9/02 -0700, you wrote:
>This is a test of mime stripping

Isn't that when you steal Marcel Marceau's hubcaps?

I mean, how is he going to call the cops and report it?


-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is
that I am now a perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague
here is rapidly running out of limbs!"
   - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 13:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (markc@peak.org)
Date: Fri Aug  9 12:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
Message-ID: <232810-22002859195212613@M2W075.mail2web.com>

Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring=2Ecom> writes:

>Most of the sound associated with weapons fire is the sound of the powder=

>going off=2E  The crack of the bullet is negligible=2E  For example, a si=
lenced
>=2E22LR is nearly silent in operation=2E

Oh, come on, Doug=2E  You and I both know they're louder than that=2E
While you certainly don't need hearing protection around one, they
sound about like a large balloon being popped=2E  Even in an open
outdoor area, I can hear one fire over 50 yds=2E away=2E  Now, if
subsonic ammo is being used, it's a whole different story=2E

>A 4mm gauss round would make a high pitched *crack* audible only to
> those near the flight path=2E

With "near" probably meaning within 200 meters=2E  (This assumes a
calm, clear day, across level terrain and with no significant
background noise to mask the shot=2E)

    - Mark C=2E



--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 13:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Fri Aug  9 12:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] 100 ton scout ship?
In-Reply-To: <20020809030206.EC91C2793F@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020809195517.52468.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com>

I think I may have seen one of these. I saw a triangle
of lights one night,flying slowly across the sky.
However, the ship I saw appeared to be at a high
altitude. Not flying low like in the article.I
couldn't hear any engine noise so I thought it must be
very high up. If it was that high up, it had to be
enormous. Football feild would be a "conservative"
estimate. Even if it was flying low it would still be
huge. 

--- Eris Reddoch <erisred@telocity.com> wrote:
> On 08/08/02 at 03:08 PM,  Bruce Johnson
> <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
> said:
> 
> >Thing wrote:
> 
> > > 
>
>http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/black_triangle_020805.htm


=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 14:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Fri Aug  9 13:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <20809.011127.5m5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020809200101.53142.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com>

I have one reservation, I know that if I were awakened
from low berth sleep, most likely, it will be because
a substantial portion of the crew got killed, in which
case, the ship probably isn't in such great fighting
shape either. My first thought upon awakening would be
"Oh $#!+"

--- Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> wrote:
> In mail you write:
> 
> > It seemed a good deal.  You aren't first into
> battle (you aren't any 
> > more likely to get killed since the unfrozen guys
> get killed first) 
> > and you don't have to deal with boredom between
> battles.  Odds are 
> > you sign up, get frozen, and wake up with all your
> pay waiting for 
> > you.
> 
> Unless you missed the clause in the contract that
> calculates your
> "term" by the time you spend *thawed*. Mind you,
> it's legal, because
> you *do* get paid for the frozen time, though at a
> lower rate.
> 
> -- 
> Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 14:03:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 13:03:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : OK, Now What?
In-Reply-To: <p04330103b979b556d090@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028923378.5627.ajackson@ping>

David P. Summers writes:

> My understanding of the argument is that plasma guns are what 
> thermodynamics call heat engines.  Thermo requires (even at maximum 
> possible efficiency) that energies comparble to the shot fired get 
> released by the gun.  So how do you shoot w/out doing as much damage 
> to the gun (or your hand).

Huh?  I'm not sure in what way a plasma gun is a heat engine, and in any case
energies comparable to the shot do get released by the gun (travelling, not
surprisingly, out the muzzle).  The problem with a plasma gun is that you're
firing a bullet made out of ionized gas, and the normal expected behavior of
such a 'bullet' on contacting any sort of atmosphere is to spread out.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 15:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 14:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] test, ignore
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020809124700.009f1ec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3D542FEB.20406@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Douglas Berry wrote:
> At 10:08 AM 8/9/02 -0700, you wrote:
> 
>> This is a test of mime stripping
> 
> 
> Isn't that when you steal Marcel Marceau's hubcaps?
> 
> I mean, how is he going to call the cops and report it?
> 
> 
No no Email first, then we'll stripmime the rest of the Internet!

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 15:12:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 14:12:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
Message-ID: <200208092111.MKR04077@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"markc" says
>Oh, come on, Doug.  You and I both know they're louder than 
>that.

I carried an MP5SD5 for a while.  At the range, when you 
fired it, the sound of the bolt cycling seemed to dominate 
the sound picture, at least from the point of view of the 
person firing the weapon.

From any angle, however, it's unmistakable that someone is 
operating a weapon.

On a side note, I used to call the M-16 (without a 
suppressor) the Orville Redenbacher, because at a distance, 
it sounds like popcorn in the microwave.  Never really 
sounded like a real weapon to me.

I can't imagine lasers making any noise at all, unless you 
hit someone.  And if they aren't in the visible light range 
(ideal transmission is apparently in the near infrared for 
work in Earth's atmosphere), you won't see the near miss 
either.

________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 15:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 14:35:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
In-Reply-To: <200208092111.MKR04077@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028928845.7419.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> "markc" says
> >Oh, come on, Doug.  You and I both know they're louder than 
> >that.
> 
> I carried an MP5SD5 for a while.  At the range, when you 
> fired it, the sound of the bolt cycling seemed to dominate 
> the sound picture, at least from the point of view of the 
> person firing the weapon.

This could, of course, be related to the fact that a sonic boom can only be
heard to the sides of the moving object.

> I can't imagine lasers making any noise at all, unless you 
> hit someone.  And if they aren't in the visible light range 
> (ideal transmission is apparently in the near infrared for 
> work in Earth's atmosphere), you won't see the near miss 
> either.

I doubt that; I suspect most weapons lasers are IR because chemical lasers have
a tendency to be IR lasers.  For focusing reasons you probably want a
blue-green laser, since it will require a lens about half the diameter (1/4 the
area) of a near IR laser.

In any case, a weapons laser designed for shooting at people will be visible if
there's any dust in the atmosphere; the laser will vaporize the dust (which
will release some light) and many forms of dust will then burn (producing more
light).  Probably quite hard to see during the day, but visible enough at
night.

An X-ray laser, of course, would work differently.  X-rays don't go very far in
atmosphere, but using the standard 0.1A X-ray lasers in FF&S, you can simply
create a very small lens and fire a pulsed beam, tunneling through the
atmosphere.  This isn't terribly efficient (at an estimate, it takes somewhere
between 100 and 1000 meters atmosphere to provide as much armor as a centimeter
of steel), but it's rather unaffected by most forms of obscurement, and would
be extremely visible to observers.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 16:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  9 15:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020809093112.3480.46413.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17dHmw-0002cx-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>

> I'm actually rather surprised: my original estimate was based on just
> eyeballing Tasmania's map and guessing how much of it feeds Tasmania's
> population.  It looks like my original estimate of 1 hectare per
> person was grossly high.  Based on these firmer and more authoritative
> figures, 0.2 hectares per person should suffice.

That's fascinating having last looking into all this about a decade 
ago I wrote my post on this topic w/o rechecking my data.  I got 
the numbers correct, but my memory managed to move a decimal 
place (0.1 hectares/person will barely work if you don't grow dairy 
or meat other than carp).  Man, I hate forgetting data, the faster 
someone discovers a way to upgrade ourselves the better.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com  


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 16:00:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  9 15:00:31 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <20020809142203.8049.65097.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17dHmz-0002cx-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:

> If global causality isn't preserved, then you can have effects without
> causes and a number of other things. And they basicly make hash of the
> very *idea* of there being natural laws. Which is why scientists are
> so reluctant to accept causality violations. 
> 
> Causality is *very* basic. 

Very true, but I still find is fascinating that the primary arguement 
that global causality must hold is aesthetic.  I'm not saying is 
doesn't hold, merely that the reasoning is interesting.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 16:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Fri Aug  9 15:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Do I have to Yahoo! ?
References: <177.cae8ad7.2a847ccf@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001201c23ff0$e1e6dea0$45cad63f@customer>

Thanks Jon.  I had already subcribed when I recieved the e-mail.  I =
guess that's why it was sent to me.  My addled brain thought I had to =
join the group to confirm my subcription.  Your e-mail clears things up =
for me. Thanks again

PS aurichtech got the free month, he was the 'fastest with the mostest'. =
 Besides I have support our boy in uniform.

John Scarlett
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: JFZeigler@aol.com=20
  To: tml@travellercentral.com=20
  Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 10:02 PM
  Subject: Re: [TML] Do I have to Yahoo! ?


  > Could someone tell me if it is necessary to follow these =
instructions to=20
  > subscribe to The JTAS.=20

  Hmmm.=20

  The JTAS group on Yahoo! is mostly just for announcements of new=20
  content in the real Journal of the Traveller's Aid Society. I've never =
seen=20
  it used for anything else.=20

  If you want to subscribe to JTAS itself - the actual webzine currently =

  run by Steve Jackson Games - you can go to http://jtas.sjgames.com/ .=20
  There are samples of content that you can look at before deciding=20
  whether you want to subscribe or not, and I believe you can actually=20
  subscribe using a link from that page.=20

  Enjoy.=20

  ----------=20
  Jon F. Zeigler=20
  Line Editor, GURPS Traveller=20
  jon@sjgames.com=20
  "The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."=20


--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/html
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 16:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri Aug  9 15:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How many Xboats...
In-Reply-To: <200208081636.MIN00707@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208081636.MIN00707@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <p04330105b979f034adc9@[143.232.119.186]>

At 12:36 PM -0400 8/8/02, John T. Kwon wrote:
>Roseberry asks
>>How many Xboats/Xboat tenders does one need to maintain a
>>single Xboat Route?
>
>I want to know how often X-boats leave and arrive.  If the
>boats leave on the hour

Given the 7 week time it will take the message to get there, on the 
hour seems excessive.  I would guess once a day (or less).
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 16:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Fri Aug  9 15:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] test, ignore
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020809124700.009f1ec0@mindspring.com>
References: <B9794537.690D6%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020809124700.009f1ec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020810004328.34283a79.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Listmom wrote:
> This is a test of mime stripping

I get really odd and really naughty images in my head when you say that...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 16:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Aug  9 15:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra, Zhakirov and Antiama
References: <20020809190005.13683.7858.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001201c23ff7$843c1fc0$0f5d8690@computer>

> From: Douglas Berry
> I was a bit unclear.  I meant to show that Arbellatra set the stage by
> weakening the Solomani grip on power at the court that had led to the
Civil
> War in the first place.  I imagine many nobles were stripped of their
> titles, and those titles passed to others.  She also, IMTU, shook up the
> bureaucracy and made it more effective by elevating Vilani business people
> to positions of authority, complete with the appropriate titles.

Fair enough. I guess the main thing is that compatibility with existing
canon is maintained.

I just had a look in Rim of Fire. It handles the issue very well. I would go
with their account.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 17:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 16:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
In-Reply-To: <m37kj6jfye.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20809.152101.5u4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com> writes:
>> 
>> So does SPAM survive the Rule of Man, the Long Night and into the
>> Third Imperium?
>
> It no longer is manufactures, but reserves of SPAM still exist.  The
> stuff lasts forever, you know...

Along with Velveeta ("The Food That Will Not Die" or some such according
to "Doon")

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 17:04:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 16:04:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Movies
In-Reply-To: <20020804135041.73249.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20809.152543.5e8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> OT: has anyone ever concerned the proximity of ships
> to each other in close orbit and planetary
> bombardment?  How close is too close?  Does a fleet
> turn the night sky bright with the multitude of
> invading ships?

Between the velocities involved and the weapon energies, ships should
be spaced *miles* apart. A "tight formation" is one where you can see
the other ships. 

The sort of formations shown in most TV shows and movies is workable
only for "parking orbits" (and not *too* workable there, as during the
course of an orbit the relative distances will change *considerably*)
or for the equivalent of Blue Angels type close formation stunt flying.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 19:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 18:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hey, wait a minute...
Message-ID: <200208100107.MKZ01680@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

The Sword Worlds had their first interstellar government, the 
Sacnoth Dominate, in -186, and lasting to -102, when 
rebellion broke it up.

Garda-Vilis is supposedly settled in -121 as Tanoose.

I am presuming that Vilis itself is settled before -121.

Would it be presumptuous to assume that Vilis itself was a 
colonization project put up prior to the ascendancy of the 
Sacnoth Dominate, but too far away for the Dominate to 
effectively rule?
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 19:08:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug  9 18:08:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
In-Reply-To: <232810-22002859195212613@M2W075.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <B979B575.6914A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/9/02 12:52 PM, markc@peak.org at markc@peak.org wrote:
>=20
>> A 4mm gauss round would make a high pitched *crack* audible only to
>> those near the flight path.
>=20
> With "near" probably meaning within 200 meters.  (This assumes a
> calm, clear day, across level terrain and with no significant
> background noise to mask the shot.)

Having just been shooting a suppressed M-16 less than a week ago, I can say
that even though it is quite comfortable to shoot without hearing
protection, there is a definite crack that is audible for quite some
distance.  It is, in fact, quite loud, just not painfully.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 19:19:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 18:19:07 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <20809.024856.2h6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <011801c23adc$bdd0f780$1d17bd50@martinjd> <20809.024856.2h6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020810111729.A5883@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Basicly, a nuke that is being used to convery something (styrofoam
> works!) into a plasma to push a bunch of projectiles.

You can even get pretty close to modelling this in GURPS Vehicles :)

Under Orion drives, it gives a formula for total impulse per kiloton
of thrust bomb.  Because the 'Vehicle' doesn't need to remain intact,
you can divide mass of pusher structure by a lot, say 1000.

So, you might model it as a missile with one-shot Orion propulsion and
a beehive warhead.  Unfortunately, Vehicles assigns far more total
damage to each projectile of a multiple-projectile round than is
reasonable.  In particular, every one of thousands of projectiles does
1/4 of the damage that a single solid projectile of the same mass
would do.


So Let's abandon GURPS Vehicles, and work from basic principles,
borrowing capabilities from source material as necessary and
converting back into game system terms only at the end.


Let's say you choose 1 mm ball bearings as the projectiles.  Each
kilogram of warhead thus includes about two hundred thousand of them.

Let's have a 10-kiloton thrust bomb, with a mass of about 1 kg at
TL10.  A propulsion system mass of 10 kg/kiloton doesn't sound too far
out, you do need to protect the payload from being directly vaporised.
So let's add 100 kg of styrofoam or whatever, and 100 kg of ball
bearings.

Assume say 10% efficiency of converting detonation energy to kinetic
energy of payload in the desired direction, for a final payload speed
of 200 km/s.

Now, there are about 20 million probably partly-melted and definitely
misshapen ball bearings travelling at 200 km/s, in say a 1:10 cone.
At a range of 1000 km, there's one ball bearing per 1600 m^2, each
with 1000 MJ of kinetic energy.


Converting back into G:Traveller game terms, the "to-hit" roll is
pretty closely modelled by Size + RoF - Range, where RoF is in this
case the number of ball bearings.  For example, 1 million ball
bearings is +33, and 20 million is +37.  Each two points of success
indicates a doubling of the number of hits.  Damage from each hit is
about 6d x 45, using the Vehicles missile impact damage with a 1 mm
missile travelling at 220,000 yards per second.  Basic cost is about
12 kCr per mine.

There, that doesn't look too shabby.  A weapon for lightly-armoured
ships to fear out to a few thousand kilometres range, and devastating
to them within a few hundred kilometres.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 19:30:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  9 18:30:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Uthe
Message-ID: <12e.15a72e95.2a85c63e@aol.com>

Les writes:

>Where can I find UWP stats for the Uthe subsector? Canon if possible.

That would be in Foreven Sector? Canon for the entire sector comprises one 
set, out of many, of subsector names, world *positions* and about seven world 
UWPs. That's it. Foreven was set aside (other than the above) as "not to be 
officially developed" by GDW late in the MT days.  The handfull of official 
bits were published in Imperiallines #1. Some details beyond this can be 
found in the CT adventures in that sector.

That said, there are a couple fan write-ups out on the net...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 19:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 18:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
Message-ID: <200208100133.MLB00132@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>Let's have a 10-kiloton thrust bomb, with a mass of about 1 
>kg at TL10.  A propulsion system mass of 10 kg/kiloton 
>doesn't sound too far out, you do need to protect the 
>payload from being directly vaporised.
>So let's add 100 kg of styrofoam or whatever, and 100 kg of 
>ball bearings.

First thought: I don't believe 100kg would do it.

>Now, there are about 20 million probably partly-melted and 
>definitely misshapen ball bearings travelling at 200 km/s, 
>in say a 1:10 cone.
>At a range of 1000 km, there's one ball bearing per 1600 
>m^2, each with 1000 MJ of kinetic energy.

This is a bit misleading.  A modern APFSDS penetrator weighs 
around 15 kg, and has a kinetic energy of around 9 MJ.  It is 
designed to unleash its energy inside the target - i.e., it 
has to hold together long enough to penetrate the hull.  
Because the penetrator holds together long enough to spear 
through the hull, it can actually do damage.

These ball bearings sound like micrometeoroids.  Put up a 
Whipple bumper (a thin layer of aluminum, spaced several 
inches away from the main hull), and they'll be vaporized on 
contact with the outer layer, and the energy will be 
harmlessly dissipated, even if it is 1000 MJ.

________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 19:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 18:35:02 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <001a01c23f4b$b6502d00$7400a8c0@matt> <20020809193011.F3949@freeman.little-possums.net> <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt>
Message-ID: <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net>

Matthew Bond wrote:
> Actually I was referring to the immediately prior post in the tread,
> by Flykiller@aol.com...

But Flykiller's post refers specifically to a post saying that planets
fail due to loss of trade, not warfare, damage, or any TNE-specific
features.  To wit:

  >If planets are so self sufficient, then why does TNE describe planets
  >failing because they were cut off from interstellar trade?

The answer is that TNE does *not* describe planets failing because
they were cut off from interstellar trade.

TNE describes planets failing because they have been torn by sabotage,
subversion by hostile life-forms, warfare, looting, and numerous other
factors not particularly related to loss of trade.  It is hence
irrelevant to the preceding discussion.


> Your arguement was that irrespective of trade all planets can
> (perhaps even 'must') be self sufficient.

No, my argument was that trade levels for high-pop worlds are known to
be so low that there can not be any short-term external dependence on
trade.

Longer-term dependence on a scale of centuries may be a possibility,
but I personally think it far more likely that if trade was cut, it
would not take that long to develop local resources to cover or avoid
the very small shortfall.


> Thats all I'm saying... given sufficient stress to the system
> (irrespective of which particular Traveller setting you use), you
> can Fail any planet that isn't capable of supporting life without
> TL9+ intervention.

That's rather a guarded and qualified statement.  I'd go further and
say that given sufficient stress to the system, you can Fail any
planet at all!

But it won't be due to lack of trade, which was the contention of the
original post.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 19:38:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 18:38:09 2002
Subject: [TML] settlement date of Vilis
Message-ID: <200208100137.MLB00305@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I'm putting the settlement date of Vilis down as -240, some 
time before the Sacnoth Dominate, and the colonists leaving 
from Gungnir.

Any thoughts?
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 19:40:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 18:40:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <3D540E41.1040509@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D53003A.1070102@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020809190742.B3949@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D540E41.1040509@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020810113922.D5883@freeman.little-possums.net>

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> The fact that they all share remarkable similarities in background
> story is mere coincidence ;-)

Sort of makes a shambles of the acronym "OTU" though :(


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 20:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Fri Aug  9 19:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Was there really a Nung River in Indochina? Was: Uthe
In-Reply-To: <12e.15a72e95.2a85c63e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020809211618.00a919f0@minn.net>

At 09:28 PM 8/9/2002 EDT, GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:
>Les writes:
>
>>Where can I find UWP stats for the Uthe subsector? Canon if possible.
>
>That would be in Foreven Sector? Canon for the entire sector comprises one 
>set, out of many, of subsector names, world *positions* and about seven
world 
>UWPs. That's it. Foreven was set aside (other than the above) as "not to be 
>officially developed" by GDW late in the MT days.  The handfull of official 
>bits were published in Imperiallines #1. Some details beyond this can be 
>found in the CT adventures in that sector.

Sorry, I believe that you are incorrect.

If I recall correctly the Foreven sector is spinward of the Spinward
Marches. The Uthe subsector is shown in Supplement 3 as being immediately
coreward of the Regina subsector. 

I need the data for my demented OTU rewrite of Coppola's demented remake of
The Wizard of Oz.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 20:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  9 19:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
Message-ID: <20020810004141.99222.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

>The also ran into a wild card: Norris.  You can't predict an 
>unexpected enemy commander that is a bloody genius and has figured
>out your plan.  I always wondered if Norris' branch of Naval
>Intelligence hadn't actually learned bits and pieces of the Zhodani
>plan.

and then failed to disclose those bits and pieces to Sector Admiral
Santanocheev, to destroy his credibility before the Emperor, and to
allow the advance of other members of the INI cabal ... how paranoid
are we?

>The Zho's over-reached themselves, in my opinion.  They didn't 
>properly understand the strength of the Imperium's "defense in
>depth" concept, nor the tenacity of local forces.

Shtaliajtlas was an idiot, actually, who had not run enough
simulations to know how to get and hold 300 points before the
Imperium could react and start rolling the Zhodanis back.  

--Glenn


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 20:43:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Aug  9 19:43:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Gencon Details?
Message-ID: <3D547C9B.5C463567@mail.cswnet.com>

Anyone with details on whats going on at Gencon?

[sniffle] I wish I was there. [out right crying]

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 20:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 19:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <200208100133.MLB00132@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208100133.MLB00132@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020810124558.E5883@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> First thought: I don't believe 100kg would do it.

I'm assuming GTL 10-12 (TTL C-F), not current-day.  I thought I'd give
the concept the benefit of the doubt.


> These ball bearings sound like micrometeoroids.

Yes.  Only about ten times faster, roughly five times as dense, and at
least a few thousand times the volume.  They could be considered "like
micrometeroids" in the same sense that an APFSDS penetrator could be
considered "like a piece of bird shot".

I did totally miscalculate their energy though; it is really 100 kJ.
Yes, that's pathetic, and yet another strike against GURPS Vehicles
that it gives them a damage of 6d x 45.  You still want a fairly good
hull material though.

Suppose the aluminium layer is 3 mm thick (which seems generous enough
for a Whipple bumper).  The speed of the projectile is about 20 times
the speed of sound in aluminium, and hence the mass of aluminium that
absorbs energy works out to at most 7 milligrams.

It actually works out much less still, because at 200 km/s there is a
very good chance that the nuclei of the projectile atoms pass through
the spaces between the aluminium nuclei with greatly reduced
deflection.  The projectile should be more accurately modelled as a
coherent particle pulse than a solid object when considering the
terminal ballistics.  But assume that doesn't really happen.

Instead of a projectile travelling at 200 km/s, after the bumper
you're left with a jet of plasma at 10 million kelvin travelling at an
average speed of more than 80 km/s.  That hits your bare hull, still
carrying most of its original energy.  Not good.


Obviously, if the energy really was 1000 MJ then the bumper would be
utterly useless.  Such a bumper is designed to stop much smaller and
slower projectiles with kinetic energies of less than a 1 J that might
otherwise cause erosion.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 21:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 20:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1028582658.5758.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20809.200112.4y7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Steven Hudson writes:
>> 
>>   "Fighter Division: ... Fighters are used for long range
>> patrols and recon within a system, allows (sic) the carrier
>> advanced warning of enemy ... In addition, the fighters are
>> expected to hold the screen against enemy vessels until the
>> Riders are ready to begin* a battle".
>
> Two problems:
>
> 1)  In space, it tends to be easier to simply tack a great big sensor on the
> main ship.

Except that a synethic aperture sensor using fighters well away from
the ship will *always* have better resolution than any array the ship
can carry because resolution depends on *width* of the sensor.

The shipboard sensor may have higher *sensitivity* because sensitivity
depends on surface area of the sensor (or sensors in the case of
multi-element arrays). 

The higher resolution is useful in getting distance and location of
enemy ships. Which makes for better targetting solutions.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 21:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 20:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
Message-ID: <200208100314.MLD01626@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>I'm assuming GTL 10-12 (TTL C-F), not current-day.  I 
>thought I'd give the concept the benefit of the doubt.

I seem to recall that bumper material is just a straight heat 
of vaporization kind of thing.  Distance from blast, yield, 
etc.  Not that a nuclear shotgun hasn't been invented.  They 
were evidently considered for SDI, but that part of the OTA 
report is still classified.


>Yes.  Only about ten times faster, roughly five times as 
>dense, and at least a few thousand times the volume.  

NASA apparently tests using a steel 3mm projectile at 7km/sec.

>You still want a fairly good hull material though.

Apparently the reason that multilayered, thin, spaced bumpers 
do better than solid armor at protecting against impact that 
turns a projectile into plasma is that solid armor tends to 
confine the plasma - the penetration is actually enhanced.  
With a space between each layer, the plasma has (albeit 
nanoseconds) time to expand after passing through successive 
layers.  And even a few nanoseconds of expansion is better 
than none at all.

>It actually works out much less still, because at 200 km/s 
>there is a very good chance that the nuclei of the 
>projectile atoms pass through the spaces between the 
>aluminium nuclei with greatly reduced
>deflection.  

I don't see 200km/sec as a velocity range where we would get 
these kinds of effects.  Maybe at relativistic velocities.

>Instead of a projectile travelling at 200 km/s, after the 
>bumper you're left with a jet of plasma at 10 million kelvin 
>travelling at an average speed of more than 80 km/s.  

But it's not an inline jet, as it would largely remain if it 
hit solid armor plate with decent thickness.  So now there's 
some jet, and some of the energy is dissipating as a 
hemispherical shock front of plasma.

>That hits your bare hull, still carrying most of its 
>original energy.  Not good.

Yes, but spread over a slightly wider area.  And if I have 
multiple layers, the layers get chewed up, but the ship is 
unharmed.  Of course, a shotgun effect like this could 
effectively clean off one side of the ship - the bumpers 
could be swept away, along with any exposed antennae, 
turrets, etc.  Perhaps even maneuver thrusters if the hit 
came from behind.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 21:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Fri Aug  9 20:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
Message-ID: <000001c2401f$59029320$33c3d63f@customer>

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> >The fact that they all share remarkable similarities in background
> >story is mere coincidence ;-)

Tim Little wrote:
>Sort of makes a shambles of the acronym "OTU" though :(

The fact is that the OTU as it stands is contradictory, inconsistent and, at
times, unworkable.
It's a mish-mash put together by dozens of different people with no apparent
continuity control.

There doesn't appear to have been any effort to make the various rules sets
mesh together either.

John Scarlett




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 21:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Aug  9 20:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
Message-ID: <F127V8MoyGnyxrDyfbX00007185@hotmail.com>

From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

     "I suggest constant suggestions that the young hellion requires an
immediate bath."


Mr. Berry,

     Thank you for the additional ammunition sir!  My threats of "I'll sell 
you for medical experiments" and "I'll mail you to the undertaker" have lost 
their luster.

     "But can be considered a success.  There have been no Imperial
attempts to establish colonies in Zhodani space for 700 years."

     Oh yes, a rousing success.  The buffer zone intended circa 500 hasn't 
been completed yet, but there are no Imperial colonies, client states, or 
whatever in Zhodani space.  The buffer zone requirement may simply be a 
"leftover" goal from the original strategy sessions in the 500's.  The Zhos 
have already achieved the benefits a buffer zone would give them, but not 
the actual buffer zone itself.

     "The also ran into a wild card: Norris.  You can't predict an
unexpected enemy commander that is a bloody genius and has figured out your 
plan.  I always wondered if Norris' branch of Naval Intelligence hadn't 
actually learned bits and pieces of the Zhodani plan."

     True.  The Imperium had a few geniuses during that war.  Add to the 
total, the SDB flotilla commander who scattered his forces to continually 
contest the Zho's supply line for the Efate siege rather than fight to the 
death.  Or the sophont who led the 212th against the Swords during the war's 
latter stages, smashing the Sacnoth fleet and occupying the good chunk of 
the Confederation in 90 days is nothing to sneeze at.  Or the sophont who 
defended Rhylanor, he/she/it might have known about a prospective Zho 
offensive but they still beat it.

     "The Zho's over-reached themselves, in my opinion.  They didn't
properly understand the strength of the Imperium's "defense in depth" 
concept, nor the tenacity of local forces."

     The Zho plan may have worked against the old Imperial "crust defense" 
policy.  The "islands of resistance" policy threw the Zhos a nasty curve, 
they completely failed to pick up IN paradigm shift despite the TNS news 
briefs.  As victors of the last 3 of 4 wars, the Zhos planned and fought the 
LAST frontier war.  As losers of the last 3 of 4 wars, the Imperials 
(finally) planned and fought the NEXT frontier war.  That little morality 
play has occurred too many times in human history not to be recognized.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 21:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Aug  9 20:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
In-Reply-To: <000001c2401f$59029320$33c3d63f@customer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020809235319.02899e68@192.168.0.1>

At 11:36 PM 8/9/2002 -0400, John Scarlett wrote:
>Bruce Johnson wrote:
> > >The fact that they all share remarkable similarities in background
> > >story is mere coincidence ;-)
>Tim Little wrote:
> >Sort of makes a shambles of the acronym "OTU" though :(
>The fact is that the OTU as it stands is contradictory, inconsistent and, at
>times, unworkable.
>It's a mish-mash put together by dozens of different people with no apparent
>continuity control.

Well, some...but even works by single authors show inconsistencies.
I'm sure folks in the list can give multiple examples in popular fiction.

>There doesn't appear to have been any effort to make the various rules sets
>mesh together either.

Hmmmm....and the business model for making GT mech to CT rules?



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 22:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Aug  9 21:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
Message-ID: <F50zbAUfKRfcjcMzfoV000000cd@hotmail.com>

From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

     "I heartily endorse your basic analysis,..."

Mr. Goffin,

     Please see a mental health professional as soon as possible.  While 
Whipsnade's Syndrome is terminal, the final stages may be delayed long 
enough to allow the sufferers a nearly normal life.  The usual prescription 
involves a daily dose of alcohol.

     "... which must be further evidence for the common belief that great 
minds think alike -- er, I mean, that Traveller players need to get a life 
-- no wait a bit..."

     Yes, I do need to get a life.

     "Anyway, if the boardgame of Fifth Frontier War is a good 
simulation,..."

     It's the ONLY simulation we have! (shudder)

     "So the Jewells would not have to be ground down by planetary sieges.  
Jewell itself is always a battle, but the Mongo National Guard will flee in 
terror after some bombing, and Esalin, Emerald, and Ruby have no defense 
forces to speak of (those TL 8 motorized infantry on Esalin are more 
terrified that the MNG, but can't flee as fast).  Lysen and Grant likewise 
need only to be occupied."

     Your are, of course, correct sir.  Jewel may require a siege, but the 
Jewels do not.

     "Begin processing the captives!"

     Hi, I'm Larsen and I'm a deadhead.
     Hi, Larsen!  Give us back our wristwatches!



     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 22:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 21:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <200208091101.MJX01284@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20809.201104.3R7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson
>>Causality is *very* basic. 
>
> Wheeler has shown that there is no proof that causality is a 
> requirement of this universe as a basic law.  It makes a nice 
> thought, but by no means is it a requirement.
>
> The two-slit experiment, played out over interstellar 
> distances, or even across a tabletop in a lab, was shown in 
> 1987 to indicate that causality is violated on a regular 
> basis.

Excuse me? Care to detail exactly *how* it violates causality?

It may violate *local* causality. But *global* causality is a very
different kettle of fish.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 22:11:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 21:11:15 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <200208091312.MKB02981@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20809.201248.7O9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> "Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance" says
>>Not quite. If I understand Wheeler correctly, causality is 
>>not violated as such (cause still precedes effect). Its just 
>>cause is not determined until the effect is observed.
>
> the problem is that the nature of the observation will force 
> a photon to the left or the right - an observation that is 
> taken perhaps a billion years after the photon departed. 

So? The effect (left or right) still *has* a cause (the observation). 

So *global* causality is upheld. Local isn't.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 22:11:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 21:11:31 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <E17dHmz-0002cx-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20809.201407.9P9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
>
>> If global causality isn't preserved, then you can have effects without
>> causes and a number of other things. And they basicly make hash of the
>> very *idea* of there being natural laws. Which is why scientists are
>> so reluctant to accept causality violations. 
>> 
>> Causality is *very* basic. 
>
> Very true, but I still find is fascinating that the primary arguement 
> that global causality must hold is aesthetic.  I'm not saying is 
> doesn't hold, merely that the reasoning is interesting.

Well, in the end it boils down to "without global causality 'reasoning'
is merely wishful thinking". 

Because without global causality, it's not possible to draw
conclusions. "If A then B" doesn't hold. And without that, everything
else falls apart.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 22:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Fri Aug  9 21:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Obeyery of Stave
In-Reply-To: <20020809195517.52468.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPCEHHEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

I am currently in the process of re-doing my entire web site.  What I was
wondering is if anyone can take a look at what I have done with the Stave
system (part of the Traveller Landgrab) and the Obeyery who were mentioned
in BTC, and suggest anything more they would like to see. I will probably
expand the details of the other two systems which are only partly completed,
at the same time.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 23:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 22:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller - more
In-Reply-To: <d1.1c6715c7.2a8098f4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20809.212402.6L7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>  >Actually, given some of the other tech, the weapons could be fusion
>  >warheads that don't *need* a fission trigger.
>
> I see.  Then (ignoring the fact that this is fantasy technology) I suppose 
> that anyone with access to a fusion plant of any size will have access to a 
> fusion "nuke" (for lack of another word)?
>
> Book 4 states that the PGMP-13 is powered by a fusion reactor.  I don't 
> suppose this would be significantly larger than that on a missile, so how 
> much modification would be needed to turn it into a bomb?

That we can't say. But it'd be rather like turning a propane torch into
a bomb. Doable, but messy.

Fusion doesn't have "critical mass" (unless you are talking about star
sized masses). So you have to do *something* to the fusion fuel to make
it fuse *fast*, and in quantity. This requires not mere high temps and
pressures, but *something* (inertia, pressure, whatever) to keep the
fuel in the reaction area long enough to react.

Maybe gravitics? 

Fusion reactors are even harder to make go "boom" than fission
reactors. And even fission reactors don't explode easily. They don't do
*nuclear* explosions at all unless you pull all the fuel, repack it and
use a *lot* of explosives.

Even so, anything that can make an FGMP or air raft fusion plant work,
could probably make a "pure" fusion bomob that wasn't overly huge. Say
the size of an early atomic bomb. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 00:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 23:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <200208100314.MLD01626@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208100314.MLD01626@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020810155906.A6285@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> I seem to recall that bumper material is just a straight heat 
> of vaporization kind of thing.  Distance from blast, yield, 
> etc.

Yeah, I'm assuming much better materials at TL 12 than here at TL 7.


> NASA apparently tests using a steel 3mm projectile at 7km/sec.

That's a very big "micro"meteoroid!  It's travelling a lot slower
though, so that probably makes up for it.


> With a space between each layer, the plasma has (albeit 
> nanoseconds) time to expand after passing through successive 
> layers.

Sure -- at the expense of more cost and hugely more volume.


> I don't see 200km/sec as a velocity range where we would get these
> kinds of effects.  Maybe at relativistic velocities.

200 km/s *is* starting to get into relativisitic velocities; it is
approaching 0.1% of c.

Work it out yourself though.  An iron nucleus at 200 km/s has a
kinetic energy of 12 keV.  That's a couple of orders of magnitude more
than the binding energy of its electrons, so chemical effects are not
a significant factor.  The nuclei *are* essentially independent
particles.

It so happens that a few millimetres of aluminium is enough to
thermalise the nuclei, and the aluminium will become a significant
part of the resulting plasma.


> But it's not an inline jet, as it would largely remain if it 
> hit solid armor plate with decent thickness.  So now there's 
> some jet, and some of the energy is dissipating as a 
> hemispherical shock front of plasma.

Less than 1/4 of the energy dissipates sideways in this case.  Yes,
multiple layers will do a much better job.  Most of the energy will be
absorbed by the 3rd or 4th layer.


> Of course, a shotgun effect like this could effectively clean off
> one side of the ship

Worse than that: the bumper layers rely for their effectiveness on
extremely sparse impacts.  The plasma from one impact destroys a much
larger region of the layers than the size of the projectile.  For
example, the impact in question would probably render 4-5 layers
ineffective over a region 20-50 cm via blast effects originating at
about layer 3 warping the structure around it.

If another projectile hits nearby, there will be much less protection.
There is a good chance that it would directly hit the hull.


You should also remember how much space these layers take up.  For a
400 dton ship, each layer consumes at least 10 dtons or so.  Since
they're no better protection than solid armour against anything bigger
than a centimetre or so at starship combat speeds (or any starship
weapons), it seems like a pretty poor deal to me.

I don't think Traveller ships would bother with spaced armour, since
their costs are so heavily volume-dependent.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 00:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Aug  9 23:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <20020810155906.A6285@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHIEOIILAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> I seem to recall that bumper material is just a straight heat 
> of vaporization kind of thing.  Distance from blast, yield, 
> etc.

Yeah, I'm assuming much better materials at TL 12 than here at TL 7.


> NASA apparently tests using a steel 3mm projectile at 7km/sec.

That's a very big "micro"meteoroid!  It's travelling a lot slower
though, so that probably makes up for it.


> With a space between each layer, the plasma has (albeit 
> nanoseconds) time to expand after passing through successive 
> layers.

Sure -- at the expense of more cost and hugely more volume.


> I don't see 200km/sec as a velocity range where we would get these
> kinds of effects.  Maybe at relativistic velocities.

200 km/s *is* starting to get into relativisitic velocities; it is
approaching 0.1% of c.

Work it out yourself though.  An iron nucleus at 200 km/s has a
kinetic energy of 12 keV.  That's a couple of orders of magnitude more
than the binding energy of its electrons, so chemical effects are not
a significant factor.  The nuclei *are* essentially independent
particles.

It so happens that a few millimetres of aluminium is enough to
thermalise the nuclei, and the aluminium will become a significant
part of the resulting plasma.


> But it's not an inline jet, as it would largely remain if it 
> hit solid armor plate with decent thickness.  So now there's 
> some jet, and some of the energy is dissipating as a 
> hemispherical shock front of plasma.

Less than 1/4 of the energy dissipates sideways in this case.  Yes,
multiple layers will do a much better job.  Most of the energy will be
absorbed by the 3rd or 4th layer.


> Of course, a shotgun effect like this could effectively clean off
> one side of the ship

Worse than that: the bumper layers rely for their effectiveness on
extremely sparse impacts.  The plasma from one impact destroys a much
larger region of the layers than the size of the projectile.  For
example, the impact in question would probably render 4-5 layers
ineffective over a region 20-50 cm via blast effects originating at
about layer 3 warping the structure around it.

If another projectile hits nearby, there will be much less protection.
There is a good chance that it would directly hit the hull.


You should also remember how much space these layers take up.  For a
400 dton ship, each layer consumes at least 10 dtons or so.  Since
they're no better protection than solid armour against anything bigger
than a centimetre or so at starship combat speeds (or any starship
weapons), it seems like a pretty poor deal to me.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Can't they just use TL 15 strip mine?

jml
Of course he's a folk singer
he sounds like he's got terminal mumps


I don't think Traveller ships would bother with spaced armour, since
their costs are so heavily volume-dependent.


- Tim
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 00:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  9 23:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] test, ignore
Message-ID: <5ad2d65abf6f.5abf6f5ad2d6@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Date: Friday, August 9, 2002 8:08 pm
Subject: [TML] test, ignore

> This is a test of mime stripping

"Don't look, Ethel!" ;-)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 00:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  9 23:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] test3, ignore
Message-ID: <5acc125ad03b.5ad03b5acc12@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Date: Friday, August 9, 2002 8:33 pm
Subject: [TML] test3, ignore

> Final MIME test

Must be working.  I didn't hear a thing. ;-)

OTOH, I _did_ hear Tom Bodett's voice in my mind's ear....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 00:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri Aug  9 23:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Uthe
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020809211618.00a919f0@minn.net>
Message-ID: <20020810065021.7C9C72793A@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/09/02 at 09:16 PM,  Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net> said:

>At 09:28 PM 8/9/2002 EDT, GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:
>>Les writes:
>>
>>>Where can I find UWP stats for the Uthe subsector? Canon if possible.

>>That would be in Foreven Sector? Canon for the entire sector comprises one 
>>set, out of many, of subsector names, world *positions* and about seven
>world 
>>UWPs. That's it. Foreven was set aside (other than the above) as "not to be 
>>officially developed" by GDW late in the MT days.  The handfull of official 
>>bits were published in Imperiallines #1. Some details beyond this can be 
>>found in the CT adventures in that sector.

>Sorry, I believe that you are incorrect.

>If I recall correctly the Foreven sector is spinward of the Spinward
>Marches. The Uthe subsector is shown in Supplement 3 as being
>immediately coreward of the Regina subsector. 

Gvurrdon Sector/Subsector O -- Uthe

 I go to <http://zho.bekka.com/data/CLASSIC/> for my OTU data needs.
<g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 01:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat Aug 10 00:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020809081646.009f77c0@mindspring.com>
References: <F24qs1wP7vvqgqGTwgT0000593c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D556531.21647.F79DE@localhost>

On 9 Aug 2002 at 8:27, Douglas Berry wrote:

> >     The Zho's three main offensives fit this idea neatly.  First, they 
> > "pin down" the Jewels.  Second, a sickle stroke through the Efate region 
> > to cut the Jewels off.  Third, a deep strike at Rhylanor to gain the 
> > war's supreme bargaining chip.
> >     If all had gone well, the Jewels would be slowly ground down by a 
> > series of planetary seiges, cutoff from the rest of the Imperium by Zho 
> > forces in the Efate region, and eventually abandoned by the Imperium at 
> > the negotiation table in return for the Zhodani evacuation of Rhylanor.
> >     Of course, no plan survives contact with the enemy, but the 
> > Consulate's hubris can be forgiven.  After all, they had won every 
> > Frontier War prior to the Fifth.  To paraphrase Moltke, the Consulate 
> > planned well, but didn't quite plan enough.
> 
> The also ran into a wild card: Norris.  You can't predict an unexpected 
> enemy commander that is a bloody genius and has figured out your plan.  I 
> always wondered if Norris' branch of Naval Intelligence hadn't actually 
> learned bits and pieces of the Zhodani plan.
> 
> The Zho's over-reached themselves, in my opinion.  They didn't properly 
> understand the strength of the Imperium's "defense in depth" concept, nor 
> the tenacity of local forces.

The latter is perhaps understandable, as in previous wars they didn't 
seem to have much trouble 'persuading' systems to leave the Imperium. 
The time between the Third Frontier War and the 4th & 5th wars seems to 
have been sufficient for the Spinward Marches to become firmly 
integrated into the 3I at a fundmental, emotional level.

As for lack of understanding of the 'defence in depth' - IIRC the rider 
'Rons didn't make too good a showing in the 4th War, so they may have 
underestimeted their effectiveness, even though the rapid-reaction role 
is probably the strongest defensive role for the rider component of a 
fleet.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 01:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 10 00:37:03 2002
Subject: Armor Schemes (was: Re: [TML] mines)
Message-ID: <5b9b0f5ba833.5ba8335b9b0f@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
Date: Saturday, August 10, 2002 8:59 am
Subject: Re: [TML] mines

<<snip>> 
> 
> You should also remember how much space these layers take up.  For a
> 400 dton ship, each layer consumes at least 10 dtons or so.  Since
> they're no better protection than solid armour against anything bigger
> than a centimetre or so at starship combat speeds (or any starship
> weapons), it seems like a pretty poor deal to me.
> 
> I don't think Traveller ships would bother with spaced armour, since
> their costs are so heavily volume-dependent.

What I've done on some of my FF&S2 designs is place additional armor on 
certain components, such as the power plant and drive sections.  Thus, 
while a shot may penetrate the main hull armor, it often doesn't have 
the energy left to pepentrate the additional armor to damage the 
component within.  _Montana_ takes advantage of this, as does Rob Day's 
IW-era _Vanguard_ ship design.

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Rampart/2555/vanguard.htm



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 01:43:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Sat Aug 10 00:43:10 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
Message-ID: <000001c2403c$3dbce440$8bdad63f@customer>

John Scarlett wrote:
 Mark Urbin responds:
> >The fact is that the OTU as it stands is contradictory, inconsistent and,
at
> >times, unworkable.
> >It's a mish-mash put together by dozens of different people with no
apparent
> >continuity control.
>
> Well, some...but even works by single authors show inconsistencies.
> I'm sure folks in the list can give multiple examples in popular fiction.
>
> >There doesn't appear to have been any effort to make the various rules
sets
> >mesh together either.
>
> Hmmmm....and the business model for making GT mesh to CT rules?

Well, I guess the headmaster caught me making broad, unsupported statements
again. ;-)  But seriously, communication isn't my strong suit.  If I speak
more than 20 words a day to someone other than myself, or the cats and dogs,
I'm being effusive.  The fact that I can type more words than I'll ever
speak in my lifetime, doesn't change the fact that I'm not a good
communicator.

So, my above statements don't accurately reflect the point that I was trying
to make.  When I talk about the rules sets not meshing, I mean that how
things work is different from rules set to rules set so that your not able
to do some things in one rules set that you could with another rules set.
This doesn't allow for much meaningful discussion of how things work between
people who are using different rules sets.

As for the OTU, I was blissfully happy with it until I joined the TML.  It's
the various threads on 'How This doesn't work' and 'How does That really
work?' that have led me to the conclusion that there's something not quite
right with the OTU.

Frankly I don't know why I'm making such a fuss.  I've always believed that
I should do what I want IMTU and I should let everybody else do what they
want in their TU's.  The OTU is vague enough to allow for many different
interpretations.  Maybe it was designed to be that way on purpose.

John Scarlett




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 01:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 10 00:49:02 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
 CHALLENGE)
Message-ID: <5b2a125b101f.5b101f5b2a12@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
Date: Saturday, August 10, 2002 4:34 am
Subject: Re: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in 
traveller CHALLENGE)

<<snip>>
> 
>  >If planets are so self sufficient, then why does TNE describe 
> planets  >failing because they were cut off from interstellar trade?
> 
> The answer is that TNE does *not* describe planets failing because
> they were cut off from interstellar trade.
> 
> TNE describes planets failing because they have been torn by sabotage,
> subversion by hostile life-forms, warfare, looting, and numerous other
> factors not particularly related to loss of trade.  It is hence
> irrelevant to the preceding discussion.

My take would be that loss of trade became a factor in causing failure 
on worlds that depended on off-world life support tech to maintain 
habitability.  Under normal circumstances, they would be viable for 
quite some time (probably centuries) before a loss of trade would 
deplete spare parts to the point that life support fails.  With the 
destruction wrought by Black War (let alone Virus), a loss of trade 
means that spare parts used to repair war-damaged systems can't be 
replaced, leading to the acceleration of life support failure.

<<snip>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 02:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug 10 01:09:02 2002
Subject: Armor Schemes (was: Re: [TML] mines)
In-Reply-To: <5b9b0f5ba833.5ba8335b9b0f@us.army.mil>
References: <5b9b0f5ba833.5ba8335b9b0f@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <20020810180812.B6285@freeman.little-possums.net>

john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:
> What I've done on some of my FF&S2 designs is place additional armor on 
> certain components, such as the power plant and drive sections.

Yes, that works in GURPS Vehicles too.  However, it usually works out
cheaper and more reliable to just have multiple drives and power
plants, so that loss of one or two merely reduces capacity somewhat.

There is one major exception: the jump coils.  They are compact, vital
to mobility, and very expensive.  You should definitely armour them
separately if you expect to see combat.  The main bridge is another
reasonable candidate.  It is not too hard to put DR 30000 on each
without impacting on performance in other ways.

It is not clear to me whether you can have internal meson screens.  If
you can, then a DR 60000 screen should probably be put in as well.

Of course, neither is going to do much against a standard missile
doing 6d x 4000 (5).  Half a million points of armour is really just
getting silly (and infeasible).  :/


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 02:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug 10 01:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <20809.200112.4y7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <ML-2.3.1028582658.5758.ajackson@ping> <20809.200112.4y7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020810185016.C6285@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Except that a synethic aperture sensor using fighters well away from
> the ship will *always* have better resolution than any array the
> ship can carry because resolution depends on *width* of the sensor.

Yes, I've always thought that ships's sensors should consist at least
partly of externally deployed units.  Putting those units on fighters
seems a little odd, though.  Surely you want them to be unmanned for
an absolute minimum of uncontrolled vibration and other bad
influences.

If you're doing visible interferometry, then half a micrometre of
uncompensated motion means uselessness.  Far-IR work is almost as bad,
and requires low thermal noise as well.  Shorter wavelengths don't
need external interferometry, since a single ship can theoretically
obtain all the resolution it would want from its own hull-mounted
detectors.

I envisage most detection taking place via far IR (heat radiation),
optionally followed by ladar tracking.  A synthetic aperture of a
kilometre or so diameter should give resolution at million kilometre
range (60 G:Traveller hexes) of about 10 metres in passive IR, without
being too cumbersome in the number and positioning of external
elements.

Naturally, it makes no sense to have resolution finer than the size of
region from which you can pick up a single photon per unit of time in
which you are interested.  Nor does it make sense to have your
external stations so far out that you can't constantly monitor their
position to within half a wavelength.  These factors will limit the
size of any synthetic aperture array.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 04:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sat Aug 10 03:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <200208091312.MKB02981@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D558F56.25375.B1AA6F1@localhost>

On 9 Aug 2002, at 9:12, John T. Kwon wrote:

> the problem is that the nature of the observation will force 
> a photon to the left or the right - an observation that is 
> taken perhaps a billion years after the photon departed. 

Working from my laymans knowledge of quantum mechanics, I believe 
there is no violation of causality here. Several billion years ago the photon 
leaves the quasar, it then travels all potential paths to the observer in 
variant probabilities, the photon then arrives at earth where the act of 
observeration selects which of the variant probabilities becomes part of 
reality. See, no violation of causality (a splitting headache maybe, but no 
violation of causality)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 04:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 03:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
In-Reply-To: <OFBA2D763C.F2E139E2-ONCA256C0E.000A4049@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20810.001307.7E6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I'd been thinking about this for a while, too. A copyright question that I 
> don't know the answer to is, "Is it 'fair use' if I put a Jesse picture on 
> ONE T-Shirt for my own use?"

Actually, given *some* of us in this group, an "I <heart> HE" shirt
like Ditzie's might do well, and could be sold to the mainstream.

Which reminds me:

http://jokeworm.com/AToons/AT280.jpg

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 04:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 03:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <3d51707a.2567266@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20810.031716.6F9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng) writes:
>
>>Thanks.  Anybody can provide with how the Royal Navy does it?  Has the =
> USN
>>changed anything from the afore-explained procedure?=20
>
> I always liked David Weber's change of command ceremonies in the Honor
> Harrington books, but I don't know whether they're based on genuine
> Napoleonic-era Royal Navy practice or just something DW made up...
>
> (in brief, the new Captain is welcomed on board the ship as a visiting
> senior officer, is escorted to the bridge, makes an all-hands
> announcement in which (s)he reads aloud the written orders from the
> Admiralty directing him/her "To proceed aboard Her Majesty's Starship
> <Foo>, there to take upon yourself the duties and responsibilities of
> commanding officer in the service of the Crown"; after which the new
> Captain formally tells the previous (acting) commander "I assume
> command".)

C.S. Forester had Horatio Hornblower doing the same thing, so it's
*probably* authentic.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 05:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith Mormon minion of Arioch)
Date: Sat Aug 10 04:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
References: <000001c2401f$59029320$33c3d63f@customer>
Message-ID: <010001c2405d$3515c2f0$6f7ba8c0@kenneith93j41k>

Well just go by what the little black books say and you will be happy, oh no
wait that is my solution
:)
ken

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comics
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you
http://www.geocities.com/J_Elric_Smith/Index.html
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Scarlett" <jlscarlett@earthlink.net>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 11:36 PM
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.


> Bruce Johnson wrote:
> > >The fact that they all share remarkable similarities in background
> > >story is mere coincidence ;-)
>
> Tim Little wrote:
> >Sort of makes a shambles of the acronym "OTU" though :(
>
> The fact is that the OTU as it stands is contradictory, inconsistent and,
at
> times, unworkable.
> It's a mish-mash put together by dozens of different people with no
apparent
> continuity control.
>
> There doesn't appear to have been any effort to make the various rules
sets
> mesh together either.
>
> John Scarlett
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 05:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sat Aug 10 04:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
In-Reply-To: <3D556531.21647.F79DE@localhost>
References: <F24qs1wP7vvqgqGTwgT0000593c@hotmail.com> <3D556531.21647.F79DE@localhost>
Message-ID: <3d55f441.2663671@post.demon.co.uk>

"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:

>> The Zho's over-reached themselves, in my opinion.  They didn't =
properly=20
>> understand the strength of the Imperium's "defense in depth" concept, =
nor=20
>> the tenacity of local forces.
>
>The latter is perhaps understandable, as in previous wars they didn't=20
>seem to have much trouble 'persuading' systems to leave the Imperium.=20

Well, naturally they didn't have much trouble "persuading" the local
inhabitants... they *are* dirty mindraping brainwashing Joe scum,
after all...

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 05:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 04:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <003c01c23dc2$11fe1850$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <20810.032526.5d5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Eric Frank Russell never became as famous as many of the other Hugo
> Winners, but some of his novels have recently been re-issued and are
> available at Amazon(1). Shadow Man: The life and works of Eric Frank
> Russell(2) is a good fan site. For some reviews of some of Russell's
> other works, visit this site(3).

I hope the re-issue "The Great Explosion". Or a book containing all the
stories from it. 

It has some *very* odd societies that any Traveller referree can swipe
to put on Earthlike worlds. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 05:23:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 04:23:18 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <e4e645e4c45c.e4c45ce4e645@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <20810.031820.6v4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Jeff D. Greenly" says
>> <snip naval change of command>
>> 
>> Don't forget - the outgoing commander has to do an inventory 
>> with the new commander, and the new commander gets to sign 
>> for the ship and all of the equipment in it.
>
> Anybody know if a _Nimitz_-class CVN has a National Stock Number? ;-)
>
> As the incoming captain signs a one-page hand receipt for "Carrier, 
> Aircraft, Nuclear-Powered, w/ancillary equipment"...then spends the next 
> week signing all the annexes to the hand receipt....

Eric Frank Russell's short story "Allamagoosa" has an interesting
example of what can happen. 

"V1098. Offog, one."

(You can find the story in "the Hugo Winners, Volume I")

And there's a bit in "Starship Troopers" about what happens when you
fail to doublecheck the inventory before taking over from someone.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 05:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 10 04:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
Message-ID: <200208101154.MLV00593@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson says
>So? The effect (left or right) still *has* a cause (the 
observation). 
>
>So *global* causality is upheld. Local isn't.
>

The problem is that the photon changed course billions of 
years ago, before the Earth existed, before people existed, 
before the detector existed.  But the act of observing forces 
a change - a change that takes place before the observation.

It's as though an observation in the present writes the past, 
which is what Wheeler talks about.  Results preceding the 
initiating action.  Wheeler says in one of his books that the 
act of observing writes and decides the past - it's not 
really observing, since by changing the methods of 
observation, we can get a different result.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 06:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 10 05:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller - more
Message-ID: <200208101200.MLV00743@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson says
>Even so, anything that can make an FGMP or air raft fusion 
>plant work, could probably make a "pure" fusion bomob that 
>wasn't overly huge. Say the size of an early atomic bomb. 

Fusion weapons without fission triggers are under 
consideration now.  Work was done in Poland as early as 1976 
on a biconical shaped charge and tritium gas that achieved a 
nominal fusion result.  The development was intended to 
produce a torpedo warhead - the prototype device was small 
enough to fit on a tabletop.

Probably the closest thing today would be magnetized target 
fusion.  You'll need a plasma source, and a power source much 
smaller than you might think, because once the plasma is 
initially confined, the final compression can be done by 
explosives.

The work on non-fission devices has a primary design goal of 
very small packages, very small yields.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 06:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sat Aug 10 05:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Uthe
In-Reply-To: <20020810065021.7C9C72793A@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <3.0.6.32.20020809211618.00a919f0@minn.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020810071405.00a98100@minn.net>

At 01:50 AM 8/10/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>On 08/09/02 at 09:16 PM,  Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net> said:
>
>>At 09:28 PM 8/9/2002 EDT, GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:
>>>Les writes:
>>>
>>>>Where can I find UWP stats for the Uthe subsector? Canon if possible.
>
>>>That would be in Foreven Sector? Canon for the entire sector comprises one 
>>>set, out of many, of subsector names, world *positions* and about seven
>>world 
>>>UWPs. That's it. Foreven was set aside (other than the above) as "not to
be 
>>>officially developed" by GDW late in the MT days.  The handfull of
official 
>>>bits were published in Imperiallines #1. Some details beyond this can be 
>>>found in the CT adventures in that sector.
>
>>Sorry, I believe that you are incorrect.
>
>>If I recall correctly the Foreven sector is spinward of the Spinward
>>Marches. The Uthe subsector is shown in Supplement 3 as being
>>immediately coreward of the Regina subsector. 
>
>Gvurrdon Sector/Subsector O -- Uthe
>
> I go to <http://zho.berka.com/data/CLASSIC/> for my OTU data needs.
><g>
>
>Eris
>-- 
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
>http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     My new first rule of advanced weapon testing: Make a backup 
copy of yourself before opening fire.
     --Kevyn, Schlock Mercenary, August 10, 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 06:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 10 05:15:03 2002
Subject: Armor Schemes (was: Re: [TML] mines)
Message-ID: <200208101214.MLV01175@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>Half a million points of armour is really just
>getting silly (and infeasible).  :/

If I'm the commander, and the bridge is armored that much 
more heavily than the rest of the ship, that's great - the 
rest of the ship can be blown completely away, but I'm going 
to survive the battle, tumbling end over end in what's left 
of the bridge.

If we have some backup power inside the bridge itself, we can 
make tea while waiting for the boarding party - or the second 
salvo.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 06:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sat Aug 10 05:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <20809.201248.7O9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <200208091312.MKB02981@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D55B66B.29635.222212@localhost>

On 9 Aug 2002, at 20:12, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> > the problem is that the nature of the observation will force 
> > a photon to the left or the right - an observation that is 
> > taken perhaps a billion years after the photon departed. 

> So? The effect (left or right) still *has* a cause (the observation). 

No, the effect that caused the proton to turn left or right was gravity and did 
occur billions of years ago. The observation is the effect that turns one of 
the two possibilities into reality. Up until the observation, both of the 
possibilities "exist" as probabilities, but the act of observation forces the 
universe to pick one.

> So *global* causality is upheld. Local isn't.

Both local and global causality are upheld.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 07:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 10 06:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 Lite
Message-ID: <609ee3606edd.606edd609ee3@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: James Ramsay <quakers_united@yahoo.com.au>
Date: Thursday, July 25, 2002 5:08 am
Subject: RE: [TML] T20 Lite

<<snip>>

 Which brings me to another point, is there any
> version of Trav where denser atmospheres affect
> lasers. Would this be a noticeable affect in RL.

FF&S2 for T4 has a table to calculate the effect of various atmosphere 
types on laser fire (my copy is in my barracks room, else I'd quote the 
table).  I suspect that FF&S (for TNE) also has this feature.

Sorry if someone already answered this; I'm still trying to catch up on 
a couple thousand TML posts....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 07:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sat Aug 10 06:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Uthe
In-Reply-To: <20020810065021.7C9C72793A@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <3.0.6.32.20020809211618.00a919f0@minn.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020810084457.00a92520@minn.net>

At 01:50 AM 8/10/2002 -0500, Eris Reddoch wrote:

>Gvurrdon Sector/Subsector O -- Uthe
>
> I go to <http://zho.bekka.com/data/CLASSIC/> for my OTU data needs.
><g>
>
>Eris

Actually it's <http://zho.berka.com/data/CLASSIC/>

The maps aree in ASCII, which is really neat. 

Thank you.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     My new first rule of advanced weapon testing: Make a backup 
copy of yourself before opening fire.
     --Kevyn, Schlock Mercenary, August 10, 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 08:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat Aug 10 07:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <20810.032526.5d5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <003c01c23dc2$11fe1850$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <3D55CFD9.21732.1B01A6F@localhost>

On 10 Aug 2002 at 3:25, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
> 
> > Eric Frank Russell never became as famous as many of the other Hugo
> > Winners, but some of his novels have recently been re-issued and are
> > available at Amazon(1). Shadow Man: The life and works of Eric Frank
> > Russell(2) is a good fan site. For some reviews of some of Russell's
> > other works, visit this site(3).
> 
> I hope the re-issue "The Great Explosion". Or a book containing all the
> stories from it. 
> 
> It has some *very* odd societies that any Traveller referree can swipe
> to put on Earthlike worlds. 

I always liked "Stronger than a thousand Gands, and smoother than an 
Earthman's downfall" from that book.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 09:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 08:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <m365ymsna4.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20810.073205.2D4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> "Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> writes:
>> 
>> At the current rates of extinction, somewhere between every six
>> months and two years (depending on which biologist you listen to) we
>> destroy one undiscovered medicine.
>
> We destroy one natural source of an undiscovered medicine, perhaps.
> But we can synthesise just about anything these days.  My best friend
> is a biochemist (well, almost--getting his PhD in a year), and if I
> remember our conversations correctly, most biochemistry these days is
> _not_ `oh, some old wives' tale says this is good; let's try it,' but
> rather `let's see which substances we can squeeze through _this_
> barrier,' i.e. it's pretty much known what most substances are going
> to do; the trick is to get them through cell walls, preserve them
> until they hit the right parts of the body, keep them from hitting the
> wrong parts.

Either he was simplifying things for you or you missed an important
detail.

We know what certain types of molecules do. And we have a good idea of
what making changes to them *might* do.

The reason we need to keep searching is because we are a *long* way
from being able to tell *in advance* what a new molecular structure
might do. 

The number of possible organic molecule structures is sufficiently huge
that checking for biological effects of natural compounds is *much*
faster than trying to synthesize things at "random". 

> The company he's interning with essentially takes a patented molecule,
> developes a thousand variations on it, and sells those variations back
> to the original patenter, IIRC.

Right. They are trying *variations* on molecules that are known to have
desireable biological effects. Partly to improve effectiveness, partly
to lessen undesirable side effects.

But that's a long ways from coming up with "original" molecular
structures that have desirable properties from scratch.

The way cells work is not something we understand at the required level
of detail. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 09:06:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 08:06:19 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <p04330109b977629d272b@[198.123.22.179]>
Message-ID: <20810.074124.2A3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>Sufficiently advanced technology makes life on an airless
>>rockball possible - why would such a species need to preserve
>>its wildlife?
>
> Well, if we assume that the airless rockball is totally self 
> suficient (not just sufficient over a timescale of week or months) I 
> see two reasons...
>
> 1) Economics, a natural ecosystem maintains itself (and hence is a 
> lot cheaper).
> 2) Comfort, just because the rockball is livable, doesn't mean it 
> produces everything people would want.

Also, if a planet *isn't* an airless rockball, but is moderately
livable, killing off the wrong thing (or introducing the wrong thing)
may screw up the ecosystem faster than you can build life support for
the current population, much less evacuate them.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 09:06:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 08:06:38 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020807171434.GA26680@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <20810.074416.5U2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 09:26:27AM -0600, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
>> > At the current rates of extinction, somewhere between every six
>> > months and two years (depending on which biologist you listen to) we
>> > destroy one undiscovered medicine.
>> 
>> We destroy one natural source of an undiscovered medicine, perhaps.
>> But we can synthesise just about anything these days.  
>
> Well, yes, but wouldn't it be a bit easier to synthesise a compound if
> you had it beforehand, instead of trying to duplicate the effects from
> an old tale?

More to the point, unless we already *have* a compound that shows
effects similar to those we want, we mostly have no idea how to design
a molecule to produce a given effect.

>
> -- 
> Mikko Parviainen
> "I quote signatures."
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 09:06:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 08:06:53 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <m37kj2r2wf.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20810.074619.7G6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> "Mikko V.I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi> writes:
>>
>> > We destroy one natural source of an undiscovered medicine,
>> > perhaps.  But we can synthesise just about anything these days.
>> 
>> Well, yes, but wouldn't it be a bit easier to synthesise a compound
>> if you had it beforehand, instead of trying to duplicate the effects
>> from an old tale?
>
> But that's the point: as I understand it we've pretty well exhausted
> the use of old tales and have moved on.  Not that I discount the
> possibility that a remarkable new medicine could be lurking in the
> rainforest; simply that I discount the probability.
>
> As I understand it, science understand the effects of most substances:

We understand the effects of the substances we *know*. As in we know
*what* eefects they have. In many cases we aren't always sure *why*. 

> the trick is to get them where they're needed and not where they're
> not.  Which means designing a molecule which will let a drug slip
> through one barrier but not another.  Which is tricky.

That's true.

We just plain *can't* design a molecule from scratch to have a *new*
effect. We don't understand the inner working of the cell well enough.

We do have a fair amount of understandng of the cell membranes now.
Enough that we have some idea as to what changes might make a molecule
get thru more easily. But even then we have to try them, because we
don't know if the changes will compromise the therapeutic effects.

It does little good to get a variant that gets inside easily if in the
process we make it quit doing what we wanted it to do once it gets
there. Or if we add a nasty side effect.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 09:07:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 08:07:10 2002
Subject: [TML] John Beats The Dead Horse of Imperial Rules Of War...
In-Reply-To: <OFB4C576D0.DD4913B9-ONCA256C0F.00177D95@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20810.075328.3g6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I believe that mercenaries, available and used in the standard way that 
> Trav says they are used, would only be possible under the canonical "Rules 
> of War" scheme. That is, with merc troops being recognised as legitimate 
> forces, with repatriation bonds, etc. Exactly what David Drake writes 
> about - I'm sure he must have cribbed a bit from Traveller.

Actually, Traveller borrowed that from him if I recall correctly.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 09:07:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 08:07:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <OFBDFF848E.6EC3E744-ONCA256C0E.0009E3EB@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20810.075757.1b1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Dear Folks -
>
> Leonard wrote:
>>If we can't follow our own laws except when it is convenient, we are
>>all at the mercy of anybody in a position of authorty.
>
> Welcome to the "rule of men, not laws".

Which is why the Imperium is an interesting place to play in, but not
necessarily to live in.

> BTW, did you receive the Straker Theme I sent over?

Yes, I haven't gotten around to extracting the files yet.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 09:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 10 08:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Uthe
Message-ID: <43.fb9fa6e.2a868beb@aol.com>

In a message dated 8/10/02 5:14:55 AM, tml-request@travellercentral.com 
writes:

>>>>>Where can I find UWP stats for the Uthe subsector? Canon if possible.
>>
>>>>That would be in Foreven Sector? Canon for the entire sector comprises
>one 
>>>>set, out of many, of subsector names, world *positions* and about seven
>>>world 
>>>>UWPs. That's it. Foreven was set aside (other than the above) as "not
>to
>be 
>>>>officially developed" by GDW late in the MT days.  The handfull of
>official 
>>>>bits were published in Imperiallines #1. Some details beyond this can
>be 
>>>>found in the CT adventures in that sector.
>>
>>>Sorry, I believe that you are incorrect.
>>
>>>If I recall correctly the Foreven sector is spinward of the Spinward
>>>Marches. The Uthe subsector is shown in Supplement 3 as being
>>>immediately coreward of the Regina subsector. 
>>
>>Gvurrdon Sector/Subsector O -- Uthe

Ah, of course. Teach me (tho' probably not) to go from memory instead of 
looking it up.  Canon info for Gvurrdon comes from the original CT Vargr 
module, as well as the DGP version for MT. Not a lot to be had, but the CT 
module has the complete map and sector listing (sans names) in the back. 
Tidbits appear elsewhere, I'm sure. Since this IS Vargr space, you may want 
to generate two sets of world names: one for what the Imperium calls a world 
on its charts, and sporadic name changes for some worlds to reflect the Vargr 
tendency to impermanence. I'm sure there's a name set already out there on 
the net somewhere...

As for the Foreven info, while not entirely relevant, it IS something that 
needs to be restated periodically.

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 10:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 10 09:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
In-Reply-To: <232810-22002859195212613@M2W075.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810092517.009fa210@mindspring.com>

At 03:52 PM 8/9/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
>
> >Most of the sound associated with weapons fire is the sound of the powder
> >going off.  The crack of the bullet is negligible.  For example, a silenced
> >.22LR is nearly silent in operation.
>
>Oh, come on, Doug.  You and I both know they're louder than that.
>While you certainly don't need hearing protection around one, they
>sound about like a large balloon being popped.  Even in an open
>outdoor area, I can hear one fire over 50 yds. away.  Now, if
>subsonic ammo is being used, it's a whole different story.

I saw a demonstration of a .22LR bolt-action pistol.  From five feet away I 
could barely detect the crack of the round.  Had I been downrange trying to 
determine where that shooter was, I would have been up a famous creek 
having mislaid my paddle.

> >A 4mm gauss round would make a high pitched *crack* audible only to
> > those near the flight path.
>
>With "near" probably meaning within 200 meters.  (This assumes a
>calm, clear day, across level terrain and with no significant
>background noise to mask the shot.)

Hmm.. I think 200m is a bit far, but unless one of is volunteering to crawl 
across the mud at your rifle club while the other fires suppresed rounds 
overehead...


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 10:53:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 10 09:53:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
In-Reply-To: <200208092111.MKR04077@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810092937.009f60f0@mindspring.com>

At 05:11 PM 8/9/02 -0400, you wrote:

>On a side note, I used to call the M-16 (without a
>suppressor) the Orville Redenbacher, because at a distance,
>it sounds like popcorn in the microwave.  Never really
>sounded like a real weapon to me.

 From what I understand, that made life in Vietnam a bit easier for the 
grunts.  If it sounds like a real weapon, it's our good friend Charles.  If 
it sounds like a toy gun, it's friendlies.

>I can't imagine lasers making any noise at all, unless you
>hit someone.  And if they aren't in the visible light range
>(ideal transmission is apparently in the near infrared for
>work in Earth's atmosphere), you won't see the near miss
>either.

I always gave them a very quiet hiss as the beam incinerated dust/water 
vapor in the beam path.  Any noise at all drowns it out.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 11:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug 10 10:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810092517.009fa210@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B97A97EE.69295%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/10/02 9:29 AM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:

>> Oh, come on, Doug.  You and I both know they're louder than that.
>> While you certainly don't need hearing protection around one, they
>> sound about like a large balloon being popped.  Even in an open
>> outdoor area, I can hear one fire over 50 yds. away.  Now, if
>> subsonic ammo is being used, it's a whole different story.
>=20
> I saw a demonstration of a .22LR bolt-action pistol.  From five feet away=
 I
> could barely detect the crack of the round.  Had I been downrange trying =
to
> determine where that shooter was, I would have been up a famous creek
> having mislaid my paddle.

That is the great advantage of the suppressed, supersonic round.  Even
though it makes noise, it is difficult if not impossible to locate the
shooter.  Particularly since the ballistic crack reflects off objects as th=
e
bullet passes them, making the source of the sound that much more
complicated to identify.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 11:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 10 10:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
In-Reply-To: <000001c2403c$3dbce440$8bdad63f@customer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810093741.009f6d90@mindspring.com>

At 03:03 AM 8/10/02 -0400, you wrote:

>So, my above statements don't accurately reflect the point that I was trying
>to make.  When I talk about the rules sets not meshing, I mean that how
>things work is different from rules set to rules set so that your not able
>to do some things in one rules set that you could with another rules set.
>This doesn't allow for much meaningful discussion of how things work between
>people who are using different rules sets.

Different designers, different design philosophies.  The economic rules 
were always geared to support the small independent trader.  Trying to 
develop the actual level of trade using rules in Merchant Prince or 
MegaTraveller while give bad results.

I avoid mechanic discussions like the plague.  I write for GURPS.  I *try* 
to make my stuff accessible to other players as well, but the mechanics 
will be different.  (Hell, the last Traveller game I actually played in was 
run under CORPS.)

>As for the OTU, I was blissfully happy with it until I joined the TML.  It's
>the various threads on 'How This doesn't work' and 'How does That really
>work?' that have led me to the conclusion that there's something not quite
>right with the OTU.

Of course there is something wrong!  It was designed piece by piece over 
the course of the last 25 years by dozens of different people working for 
different companies and with very different agendas.  It's history by 
committee.  There will be holes all over the place.  That's one of the 
things we do here is fill those holes, hence the current discussion of 
topics like the Fifth Frontier War and Arbellatra.  I can only speak for 
myself, but some of what it said here finds its way both into my games and 
my pay copy.

>Frankly I don't know why I'm making such a fuss.  I've always believed that
>I should do what I want IMTU and I should let everybody else do what they
>want in their TU's.  The OTU is vague enough to allow for many different
>interpretations.  Maybe it was designed to be that way on purpose.

Which is a healthy attitude.  After Ground Forces came out, i received a 
*scathing* email from a customer who quite literally told me he was going 
to complain to Steve Jackson and Marc Miller, through my book in the 
furnace, and demand that I never be hired to write another word for 
Traveller because I was a complete moron who obviously was out to ruin the 
entire game.  Why?

Because I put the Marines into kilts as part of their full dress 
uniform.  One paragraph, in a sidebar.  I wrote the person back and asked 
if he like the rest of the book, and if so, why didn't he ignore it?  I put 
it in for a reason, but if it makes him that mad, simply take a black 
Sharpie and line through the offending phrase.  Simple.  He actually wrote 
back saying that since it was in the book it meant that he *had* to do 
it.  I gave him official aithor dispensation to not have Marines in 
kilts.  Put 'em in clown suits for all I care.

Everything published, or written here, is subject to the interpetation and 
judgement of each player and referee.  Use what you want, change what you 
like, ignore that which annoys you.  This was part of the reason I 
suggested the Landgrab.. get involvement from people so we could see their 
views of this universe.  Nobody *has* to use them, but they make for some 
interesting data points.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 11:23:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 10 10:23:23 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
In-Reply-To: <20020810004141.99222.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810095614.00a07cf0@mindspring.com>

At 05:41 PM 8/9/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
> >The also ran into a wild card: Norris.  You can't predict an
> >unexpected enemy commander that is a bloody genius and has figured
> >out your plan.  I always wondered if Norris' branch of Naval
> >Intelligence hadn't actually learned bits and pieces of the Zhodani
> >plan.
>
>and then failed to disclose those bits and pieces to Sector Admiral
>Santanocheev, to destroy his credibility before the Emperor, and to
>allow the advance of other members of the INI cabal ... how paranoid
>are we?

Oh, I always know Norris was a bit of a Napoleon.  Let's see.  His elder 
brother dies, and he becomes Duke of Regina.  Santocheev, a pompous 
incompetent twit, has information held back by Norris' faction of Naval 
Intelligence, piddles all over himself and is removed in disgrace, allowing 
Norris to become a war hero.  Norris becomes Archduke.  Just me, or do I 
hear Strephon telling Norris "rid me of this bothersome Admiral."


> >The Zho's over-reached themselves, in my opinion.  They didn't
> >properly understand the strength of the Imperium's "defense in
> >depth" concept, nor the tenacity of local forces.
>
>Shtaliajtlas was an idiot, actually, who had not run enough
>simulations to know how to get and hold 300 points before the
>Imperium could react and start rolling the Zhodanis back.

We always played with the optional rules that capitals and high-pop worlds 
were both worth double VP.  Jewell and Rhylanor, 54 and 60VP respectively, 
were juicy targets.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption
abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every
man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the
end of the world is fast approaching."
- Assyrian Tablet, c.2800 BC




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 11:23:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 10 10:23:43 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810100309.00a046b0@mindspring.com>

Way OT, but as a hardcore Giants fan, I just gotta brag.

Last night, Barry Bonds hit his 600th career home run.  Next target: 661.

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
- Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 11:58:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat Aug 10 10:58:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Uthe
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020810084457.00a92520@minn.net>
Message-ID: <20020810175718.96C472793A@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/10/02 at 08:44 AM,  Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net> said:

>At 01:50 AM 8/10/2002 -0500, Eris Reddoch wrote:

>>Gvurrdon Sector/Subsector O -- Uthe
>>
>> I go to <http://zho.bekka.com/data/CLASSIC/> for my OTU data needs.
>><g>
>>
>>Eris

>Actually it's <http://zho.berka.com/data/CLASSIC/>

Oops! That's what I get for sending a post at 0150. <g> 

>The maps aree in ASCII, which is really neat. 

What's neatest, to me, is the data is available in Galactic format, so
I can download them directly to the proper directories and I've (more
or less) added another sector to my copy of the program.  But, yes,
the perl scripts that produce the ascii maps are neat, as are the java
programs. I'd love to see the code!

>Thank you.

You are welcome, but most of your thanks should go to the list owner.

Eris

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 12:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Aug 10 11:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <F52sKj9cMXF1UVkCUVP00005065@hotmail.com>

From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

     Way OT, but as a hardcore Giants fan, I just gotta brag.

     Last night, Barry Bonds hit his 600th career home run.  Next target: 
661.


Mr. Berry,

     With the "Say Hey Kid" as your godfather, you BETTER hit 600 plus!
     Now that the Olde Town Team is well into their patented summer swoon, 
following Mr. Bonds has given me great pleasure of late.  He hit one a few 
weeks ago that went so far there should have been a stewardess on it!
     Oops, gotta go, Hillenbrand just hit a double and the Flops have jumped 
out ahead of the amazin' Twins (downsize THIS Selig!).  With Pedro on the 
mound, one run might be all the Flops need.  Since the All-Star break, it 
seems Martinez can throw a porkchop past a wolf.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen E. "Goddam Red Sox!" Whipsnade

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 12:07:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 10 11:07:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
Message-ID: <200208101806.MMH01558@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry says

>Hmm.. I think 200m is a bit far, but unless one of is 
>volunteering to crawl across the mud at your rifle club 
>while the other fires suppresed rounds overehead...

Had an interesting day a long time ago.  We were at Range 14, 
one of the few known distance ranges at Ft. Campbell, in 
1988.  We took turns shooting an M-21 with suppressor.  While 
the shooter fired rounds in slow fire, we walked along the 
side berm, eventually moving from 100 meters directly behind 
the firer, to 100 meters directly to the right, then moving 
along the right berm, up to the 300 yard berm, moving along 
behind the berm as the rounds went overhead, and back down 
along the left berm.  The change in delay between thump of 
weapon and crack of bullet was extremely instructive.  If 
there are any other echo generating surfaces around, off axis 
between shooter and target, it's very confusing as to where 
things are.

There is still a thump from the weapon (muzzle noise), and 
there's more of a crack from a supersonic 7.62 than we later 
heard from a M-16 round.  I might note that the more modern 
suppressor we saw on the M-16 was a lot better than the 
ancient thing on the M-21.

Tod may shed some light on it, but there didn't seem to be a 
way to take apart the newer models of these things.  They 
didn't have relief valves, either.  On the old suppressor, 
you could see how the front plate of the suppressor was 
screwed in - and how you could possibly remove it.  The 
suppressor (unidentified) that I saw on the M-16 was fatter, 
shorter, and had no obvious means of dismantling it.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 12:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Sat Aug 10 11:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F163A@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Good idea!  Hadn't really thought of that one (yet).  I'll add it to the list of Famille Spofulam stuff I'm working on.
Jesse

> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com [mailto:shadow@krypton.rain.com]
> Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 1:13 AM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
> 
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > I'd been thinking about this for a while, too. A copyright 
> question that I 
> > don't know the answer to is, "Is it 'fair use' if I put a 
> Jesse picture on 
> > ONE T-Shirt for my own use?"
> 
> Actually, given *some* of us in this group, an "I <heart> HE" shirt
> like Ditzie's might do well, and could be sold to the mainstream.
> 
> Which reminds me:
> 
> http://jokeworm.com/AToons/AT280.jpg
> 
> -- 
> Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 12:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug 10 11:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
In-Reply-To: <200208101806.MMH01558@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B97AAB5A.692AC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/10/02 11:06 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> Tod may shed some light on it, but there didn't seem to be a
> way to take apart the newer models of these things.  They
> didn't have relief valves, either.  On the old suppressor,
> you could see how the front plate of the suppressor was
> screwed in - and how you could possibly remove it.  The
> suppressor (unidentified) that I saw on the M-16 was fatter,
> shorter, and had no obvious means of dismantling it.

One of the 'features' of modern suppressors from the big name vendors (AWC,
Gemtech, etc) is that they are sealed.  This is mainly for two reasons.  Th=
e
first (the one the vendor gives) is to keep precision components in
alignment and free from damage.  But the main reason is to protect
proprietary designs.  They don't want you to see how they work, and most
people aren't going to cut apart a $500 dollar, registered suppressor just
to find out.

For the military, this is not an issue.  A suppressor is a disposable item.
For the civilian user, this is another matter.  Suppressors are registered,
and sending them back for service is a bureaucratic nightmare.  Suppressors
do get dirty, and do require cleaning.  IMHO, a suppressor that cannot be
stripped for cleaning is just asking for trouble.  My own designs are simpl=
e
to disassemble, and while not as efficient as some of the 'big name'
suppressors, are infinitely easier to maintain.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 12:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug 10 11:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Stripmime
In-Reply-To: <20809.034100.0C2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <B97AAB99.692AD%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/9/02 4:41 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:

> In mail you write:
>=20
>> Someone on the TML kindly modified Stripmime to allow messages without a
>> content type to get posted on the list (A fix for Leonard).  If that per=
son
>> still has a copy, could they please contact me.  I've lost the original =
that
>> you sent me.
>=20
> If it runs on Intel family CPUs under DOS, Windoze, or OS/2, I'd be
> interested in a copy..

It's written in perl.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 13:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Sat Aug 10 12:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <F52sKj9cMXF1UVkCUVP00005065@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020810190015.25320.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>

> From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
> 
>      Way OT, but as a hardcore Giants fan, I just
> gotta brag.
> 
>      Last night, Barry Bonds hit his 600th career
> home run.  Next target: 
> 661.

Only one of four players in the 600+ club.  It is
truly amazing, but my favorite comment was...

"As amazing as it is, he is still 155 away from Hank. 
Sorta puts Hank's achievement in perspective."

I was really glad for Barry.  Hopefully he can break
615 or 620 this year and stick around for a couple
more and get close to 755.

(BTW, my second favorite line was by Barry himself
giving Nenn his dues and asking the reporters if he
could go home the night he hit 599.)

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 13:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 10 12:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
Message-ID: <6b20b06ad2b2.6ad2b26b20b0@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Date: Saturday, August 10, 2002 7:29 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...

> At 03:52 PM 8/9/02 -0400, you wrote:

<<snip\..
> >
> >With "near" probably meaning within 200 meters.  (This assumes a
> >calm, clear day, across level terrain and with no significant
> >background noise to mask the shot.)
> 
> Hmm.. I think 200m is a bit far, but unless one of is volunteering 
> to crawl 
> across the mud at your rifle club while the other fires suppresed 
> rounds 
> overehead...

Well, if I can ever make it to an Oregon shoot (IOW, if I can avoid yet 
another mobilization long enough to make it up there), I'll volunteer.  
After all, as a paratrooper, I've been taught that I'm very 
bullet-resistant. ;-)

Of course, given my MOS and assigned (_not_ chosen!) target language, 
that could be a couple of decades from now.... :-(


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 14:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 10 13:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <6b60e36b77b9.6b77b96b60e3@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Date: Saturday, August 10, 2002 8:04 pm
Subject: [TML] OT: Barry Bonds

> Way OT, but as a hardcore Giants fan, I just gotta brag.
> 
> Last night, Barry Bonds hit his 600th career home run.  Next 
> target: 661.

Who cares [*].  Barry Bonds will _still_ never be fit to wash Big Mac's 
skivvies.... ;-)

ObTrav: Change the game from baseball to gravball, change the names from 
Mark McGwire and Barry Bonds to something a bit more Travelleresque (or 
not), and you can use the "who's greater?" discussion practically 
verbatim.

[*] Says someone who definitively bleeds Cardinals Red [**].... ;-)

[**] Although I do indeed bleed Cardinals Red when sliced and/or diced, 
I prefer to keep my blood going round and round, rather than spurting 
out in great gouts....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 14:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 10 13:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <200208102021.MML01580@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Paul Walker says
>"As amazing as it is, he is still 155 away from Hank. 
>Sorta puts Hank's achievement in perspective."

I'm waiting for the genetically modified players to come out.

Mind you, I might be 80 years old when that happens.

Then, baseball as we know it will be over, and the far future 
will have begun.

________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 14:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 10 13:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
Message-ID: <200208102027.MMM00032@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

john.groth@us.army.mil  says
>Of course, given my MOS and assigned (_not_ chosen!) target 
>language, that could be a couple of decades from now.... :-(

Just stay above ground.  Every day above ground is a good 
day.  Learning the language is not going to be the hard part 
in the future of RL.  There are just some really wicked NPCs 
out and about...

I didn't find modern hebrew that difficult to learn on my 
own.  I think it would be easier to learn to speak Arabic 
than to read it (I've a smattering of Chinese, but it's all 
conversational - I can't read at all).

Then there's the ancient stuff - the old hebrew and aramaic - 
but if you're a gearhead, this sort of stuff is interesting.

It could be worse.  Imagine trying to find some place alone 
in the barracks so you can practice your Vargr.  Or maybe 
while you're the SDNCO, it's 0200, and you figure you can 
just start barking...

So, was Donald Sutherland speaking Vargr when he played 
Oddball in Kelly's Heroes?
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 14:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 10 13:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day
Message-ID: <200208102032.MMN00082@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Groth has another long night as SDNCO.  Routine, and 
routinely boring.  After all, Imperial peacekeeping duty on 
Garda-Vilis has been going on for over 20 years....

Still, he's trying to keep sharp, and learn new skills.  He's 
hoping to improve his language skill in Vargr.

The corporal sitting next to him is engrossed in the latest 
military tri-D.  Groth goes into the battalion office - 
hopefully he can keep this private.

Unbeknownst to Groth, the S3 is keeping a late night, and 
comes around to the office area.  Groth, engrossed in his 
woofing, doesn't notice the major looking at him.

The major clears his throat.  He knows Groth is working hard, 
but he's never gotten used to the idea of men growling and 
barking like dogs. 

"Carry on, sergeant."

________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 14:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Sat Aug 10 13:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Fire, Fusion, & Steel (TNE version) Thruster question
Message-ID: <20020810204013.8336.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>

No, I'm not gonna ask about T-plates and HEPlaR. ;)

I'm trying to design my very first Missile.  The
EAPlaC is driving me nuts.  The text says (pg 70, top
column 2):

** The values shown for the EAPlaC and fusion rockets
are the _minimum_ thrust ratings per engine.

The number in the table for EAPlaC is 100.  So does
that mean that I have to design the Solid Rocket Fuel
Propulsion part of the missile to handle 100 Tonnes of
thrust?  That (if I'm reading right) would be an
additional mass of 30 tonnes to my tiny missile!?!?!?!

Arggg.  If someone who loves this stuff would be
willing to talk me through the entire design off list,
I'd really appreciate it.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 16:03:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sat Aug 10 15:03:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Settlement date of Vilis
In-Reply-To: <20020810050803.5872.3294.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208102340010.8945-100000@ask.diku.dk>

John T. Kwon writes:
>The Sword Worlds had their first interstellar government, the
>Sacnoth Dominate, in -186, and lasting to -102, when
>rebellion broke it up.

Do you have a subscription to JTAS Online? If so, you may want to take a
look at two capaign settings I've written about the Sacnoth Dominate and
the Five States Era (the period between the rise of new interstellar
societies following the devastation of the War of the First Rebellion and
the formation of the Triple Dominion).

>Garda-Vilis is supposedly settled in -121 as Tanoose.

-121 according to _Broadsword_, -120 according to _Regency Sourcebook_. I
myself goes with the first date. The settlement fails after a few decades.

>I am presuming that Vilis itself is settled before -121.

No, Vilis isn't settled until 240[*]. It is settled from Gungnir.
Garda-Vilis, as it is renamed, is 'settled' from Vilis in 290. Just what
happens isn't clear, but this is the period of the 'Squabbling States' (my
term[**]) which lies between the fall of the Triple Dominion in 217 and
the formation of the military government that unites the Sword Worlds at
the beginning of the 1st Frontier War, so I don't think it will be
difficult to come up with some military or economic upset that makes
Tanoose vulnerable to Vilisian military adventurism. Though Vilis will
need to be an unusually well-organized and unusually successful colony
venture in order to grow to a point where it can impose its will on a
long-established world in just 50 years.

[*] In 300 the Sword Worlds are divided into five interstellar states, in
    400 nine, in 500 eight, and in 589 five.

John T. Kwon writes:

>I'm putting the settlement date of Vilis down as -240, some time before
>the Sacnoth Dominate, and the colonists leaving from Gungnir.
>
>Any thoughts?

See above.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 16:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 10 15:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Settlement date of Vilis
Message-ID: <200208102222.MMP01599@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen says
>No, Vilis isn't settled until 240[*]. It is settled from 
>Gungnir.
>Garda-Vilis, as it is renamed, is 'settled' from Vilis in 
>290. Just what happens isn't clear, but this is the period 
>of the 'Squabbling States' (my term[**]) which lies between 
>the fall of the Triple Dominion in 217 and the formation of 
>the military government that unites the Sword Worlds at
>the beginning of the 1st Frontier War, so I don't think it 
>will be difficult to come up with some military or economic 
>upset that makes Tanoose vulnerable to Vilisian military 
>adventurism. Though Vilis will need to be an unusually well-
>organized and unusually successful colony venture in order 
>to grow to a point where it can impose its will on a
>long-established world in just 50 years.


That's the problem I had with the positive 240 date.  It 
would have to be a societal miracle on the scale of the Meiji 
Period in real life.  Japan going from 16th to 20th century 
in 40 years - and being able to project credible military 
power at the end of that period.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 16:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug 10 15:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <3D558F56.25375.B1AA6F1@localhost>
References: <200208091312.MKB02981@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <3D558F56.25375.B1AA6F1@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020811082836.A12196@freeman.little-possums.net>

Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
> it then travels all potential paths to the observer in variant
> probabilities, the photon then arrives at earth where the act of
> observeration selects which of the variant probabilities becomes
> part of reality.

Or depending upon your interpretation, the observer's state is
correlated with the photon's state.  Some people hold that the act of
observation has no special privileges in determining reality. :)


> See, no violation of causality (a splitting headache maybe, but no
> violation of causality)

Yes; whichever interpretation you adopt, there is no causality
violation.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 16:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug 10 15:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <200208101154.MLV00593@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208101154.MLV00593@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020811083334.B12196@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> But the act of observing forces a change - a change that takes place
> before the observation.

As I understand it, that particular interpretation isn't widely held
among physicists these days.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 16:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug 10 15:53:02 2002
Subject: Armor Schemes (was: Re: [TML] mines)
In-Reply-To: <200208101214.MLV01175@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208101214.MLV01175@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020811085247.C12196@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> If we have some backup power inside the bridge itself, we can make
> tea while waiting for the boarding party - or the second salvo.

I did specify that the jump coils were protected too -- pity the fuel
wasn't.  It's mainly useful if your side survives the engagement,
because you can probably rebuild around the jump drive even if the
rest of the ship is fubar.

Just out of interest, half a million points of advanced TL12 ablative
armour around a command bridge, and small power plant costs 25 MCr and
has a mass of 1400 tonnes.  Not completely infeasible, but massive
enough to impact performance.  The same amount of armour around a
jump-2 drive in a 10k dton ship would mass 20k tonnes and cost 340 MCr.
It would be protecting a 900 MCr piece of equipment.

If the rest of the ship is destroyed, it doesn't do you a lot of good
in a military sense.  If it isn't, you may well be able to activate
your working jump drive and get out of there before it is.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 16:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat Aug 10 15:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810095614.00a07cf0@mindspring.com>
References: <20020810004141.99222.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3D564265.28016.138F15@localhost>

On 10 Aug 2002 at 10:01, Douglas Berry wrote:

> >Shtaliajtlas was an idiot, actually, who had not run enough
> >simulations to know how to get and hold 300 points before the
> >Imperium could react and start rolling the Zhodanis back.
> 
> We always played with the optional rules that capitals and high-pop worlds 
> were both worth double VP.  Jewell and Rhylanor, 54 and 60VP respectively, 
> were juicy targets.

That would make going all the way to Regina more attractive, too.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 17:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat Aug 10 16:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Fire, Fusion, & Steel (TNE version) Thruster question
In-Reply-To: <20020810204013.8336.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3D5643D4.830.1928BE@localhost>

On 10 Aug 2002 at 13:40, Paul Walker wrote:

> No, I'm not gonna ask about T-plates and HEPlaR. ;)
> 
> I'm trying to design my very first Missile.  The
> EAPlaC is driving me nuts.  The text says (pg 70, top
> column 2):
> 
> ** The values shown for the EAPlaC and fusion rockets
> are the _minimum_ thrust ratings per engine.
> 
> The number in the table for EAPlaC is 100.  So does
> that mean that I have to design the Solid Rocket Fuel
> Propulsion part of the missile to handle 100 Tonnes of
> thrust?  That (if I'm reading right) would be an
> additional mass of 30 tonnes to my tiny missile!?!?!?!

Yes it means that the EAPlaC has to produce 100 tons of thrust. However 
note that there's no requirement for it to do so for very long. One of 
those mines I recently posted had a 500kg EAPlaC rocket producing 100 
tons of thrust for about 30 seconds (0.0167 of BL's 30-minute turns).
 
> Arggg.  If someone who loves this stuff would be
> willing to talk me through the entire design off list,
> I'd really appreciate it.

Well send me what you've done and I'll take a look. Missile design is 
fairly stright forward, as you don't have to buy a hull, etc.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 17:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sat Aug 10 16:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <20020808171316.15286.91204.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208110115150.11066-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Alan Bradley writes:
>Gratuitous nepotism goes a long way. I don't see any particular problem
>about [Arbellatra] taking over the family business, especially during the
>Civil War, when warlordism was rife.

My take is that she is herself at least a duchess (or at least the heir
apparent to one). And I think you're right that the pre-Civil War navy was
more subject to favoritism than the USN -- sorry, I mean the Classic Era
IN ;-).

>A good staff will cover a multitude of sins, especially if it includes
>people like Soegz. In fact, Soegz may have been the real genius.

Another candidate for the title 'The real Genius' is Arbellatra's flag
captain Kevin Alderon. So far he is only mentioned in one place, namely
"The Alderon Diary", an Amber Zone I wrote for PYRAMID some years ago (I
know some people do not count that as canonical). He was Arbellatra's flag
captain at the end of the 2nd Frontier War and followed her to the
Imperial Core where he eventually became Grand Admiral of the Fleets and
1st Space Lord. Upon Arbellatra's death in 666 he retired to Kinorb where
he lived out his remaining years in obscurity. About 50 years ago he was
immortalized by an author named D.T. Woodsman who wrote a semi-biographical
bestseller about him and followed up with a dozen sequels (All of which
have since been turned into smash holo-dramas).

Here is a list of book titles and short summaries thereof that I worked
out for the books. Bear in mind that while they are supposedly semi-
biographical, the emphasis is in some cases on the semi. I would not, for
instance, put much faith in the supposed first meeting between him and
Arbellatra ;-)

"Young Lord Alderon"    Lishun 586      Young Kevin Alderon decides to
  					join the Navy.

"Ensign Alderon"        Core 588        Kevin Alderon attends Naval
					Academy on Capital.
|
|Never written                          Sublieutenant Alderon.
|

"Lieutenant Alderon"    Vland 594       Lieutenant Alderon foils Vargr
					spys and meets a young vargr named
					Soegz.

"Liutenant Alderon      Corridor 596    Lieutenant  Alderon  battles Vargr
 and the Raiders"                       raiders along the Corridor border.

"Lt. Cmdr. Alderon"     Deneb 600

"Commander Alderon"     Sp. Mar. 604

"Commander Alderon      Sp. Mar. 605    A   brilliant  young  ensign named
 and the ensign"                        Arbellatra  serves  under Commander
                                        Alderon who promotes  her over the
					head of older ensigns.

"Commander Alderon      Tr. Rch. 613    Commander Alderon protects a client
 and the _ihatei_"                      state in the Outrim Void from Aslan
                                        settlers, eventually finding alter-
                                        native land for the Aslans.

"Captain Alderon"       Sp. Mar. 615    The outbreak of the Second Frontier
                                        War  brings Kevin Alderon his long-
                                        deserved promotion to captain.

"Captain Alderon's      Sp. Mar. 619    Alderon becomes Flag Captain to Ar-
 Flag"                                  bellatra, the newly-appointed Grand
                                        Admiral of the Marches.

Was Kevin Alderon no more than Arbellatra's faithful hatchetman or was he
the guiding hand behind her? Whoever eventually writes the Civil War
sourcebook will have to decide ;-D.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
------------
In my opinion it ought to go without saying that if you work in another
person's universe, he and anyone else authorized to work in said universe
is implicitly permitted to use your work as background material. But I
know it doesn't, so I hereby give my permission for Marc Miller and anyone
else authorized to work in the Traveller Universe to use the above as
background material.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 17:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sat Aug 10 16:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day
In-Reply-To: <200208102032.MMN00082@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020810183827.00a6c100@minn.net>

At 04:32 PM 8/10/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:

>Groth has another long night as SDNCO.  Routine, and 
>routinely boring.  After all, Imperial peacekeeping duty on 
>Garda-Vilis has been going on for over 20 years....
>
>Still, he's trying to keep sharp, and learn new skills.  He's 
>hoping to improve his language skill in Vargr.
>
>The corporal sitting next to him is engrossed in the latest 
>military tri-D.  Groth goes into the battalion office - 
>hopefully he can keep this private.
>
>Unbeknownst to Groth, the S3 is keeping a late night, and 
>comes around to the office area.  Groth, engrossed in his 
>woofing, doesn't notice the major looking at him.
>
>The major clears his throat.  He knows Groth is working hard, 
>but he's never gotten used to the idea of men growling and 
>barking like dogs. 
>
>"Carry on, sergeant."

I have to use this somehow.

Darn it.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     My new first rule of advanced weapon testing: Make a backup 
copy of yourself before opening fire.
     --Kevyn, Schlock Mercenary, August 10, 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 18:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat Aug 10 17:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208110115150.11066-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <20020808171316.15286.91204.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D56548D.12818.5A7CDF@localhost>

On 11 Aug 2002 at 1:34, Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> Alan Bradley writes:
> >Gratuitous nepotism goes a long way. I don't see any particular problem
> >about [Arbellatra] taking over the family business, especially during the
> >Civil War, when warlordism was rife.
> 
> My take is that she is herself at least a duchess (or at least the heir
> apparent to one). And I think you're right that the pre-Civil War navy was
> more subject to favoritism than the USN -- sorry, I mean the Classic Era
> IN ;-).

IMO the IN of CT is actually quite open to various forms of cronyism, 
nepotism, etc. It and the Marines are the two services where a good Soc 
improves your chances and, unlike the Marines, in the Navy your Soc can 
improve during service (all according to Book 1).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 18:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 10 17:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] smallcraft deckplans
Message-ID: <115.158c1370.2a87061b@aol.com>

at http://members.aol.com/exog/myhomepage/small.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 18:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Aug 10 17:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] smallcraft deckplans
In-Reply-To: <115.158c1370.2a87061b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020810201842.019119f8@192.168.0.1>

At 08:13 PM 8/10/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>at http://members.aol.com/exog/myhomepage/small.html

Nice, thanks!



----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Government does not cause affluence. Citizens of totalitarian
countries have plenty of government and nothing of anything
else." -- P. J. O'Rourke, EAT THE RICH
----------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 18:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sat Aug 10 17:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <3D55B1E8.DD9CA93@mail.cswnet.com>

Larsen writes:
>downsize THIS Selig!
A couple more games like todays and he just might take you up on the
offer.
Twinkies    0
Red Sox     2  Final
Since were on the subject, lets here it for the BIG UNIT!
Randy Johnson now 5th place in all-time strike outs!

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 20:32:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Aug 10 19:32:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Land grab webring
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020810223128.0203be30@mail.charter.net>

Any interest in a webring of landgrab sites?



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 00:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 10 23:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Land grab webring
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020810223128.0203be30@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810233001.009e15b0@mindspring.com>

At 10:31 PM 8/10/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Any interest in a webring of landgrab sites?

Yes!  It would encourage me to get a few planets put together and on the web.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 01:04:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Aug 11 00:04:05 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <6b60e36b77b9.6b77b96b60e3@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810233138.009e28a0@mindspring.com>

At 11:12 PM 8/10/02 +0300, you wrote:

>Who cares [*].  Barry Bonds will _still_ never be fit to wash Big Mac's
>skivvies.... ;-)

Big Mac? Sounds familiar..  Ah, yes.  The guy who has *2nd* place on the 
single-season home run record, and on all time..  576?  24 short, Bash-boy!

>ObTrav: Change the game from baseball to gravball, change the names from
>Mark McGwire and Barry Bonds to something a bit more Travelleresque (or
>not), and you can use the "who's greater?" discussion practically
>verbatim.

I once needed a bar brawl to break out, and put two guys discussing 
Rollerball in the corner.  Suddenly, I had one of the NPCs leap up and yell 
"The stinking '85 Dreadnaughts?  Stanton could've taken them sissies down 
single-handed!"  Rebuttal made by way of beer mug.

>[*] Says someone who definitively bleeds Cardinals Red [**].... ;-)

Could be worse, you could bleed Dodger (spit) Blue.

>[**] Although I do indeed bleed Cardinals Red when sliced and/or diced,
>I prefer to keep my blood going round and round, rather than spurting
>out in great gouts....

Yet he insults a Giant in my presence.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry   gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Cry "CHEEBLE!" and let slip the hamsters of war!



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 01:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Sun Aug 11 00:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Land grab webring
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810233001.009e15b0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPIEIFEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Looks good to me, especially as the Rockhead ring seems to be dead.

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
Sent: Sunday, 11 August 2002 2:31 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Land grab webring


At 10:31 PM 8/10/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Any interest in a webring of landgrab sites?

Yes!  It would encourage me to get a few planets put together and on the
web.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 01:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Sun Aug 11 00:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <200208101154.MLV00593@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <006a01c241a6$9af3ca00$1001a8c0@sauron>

John T. Kwon wrote :
> The problem is that the photon changed course billions of 
> years ago, before the Earth existed, before people existed, 
> before the detector existed.  But the act of observing forces 
> a change - a change that takes place before the observation.
> It's as though an observation in the present writes the past, 
> which is what Wheeler talks about.  Results preceding the 
> initiating action.  Wheeler says in one of his books that the 
> act of observing writes and decides the past - it's not 
> really observing, since by changing the methods of 
> observation, we can get a different result.

Wheeler is presuming that the physicists who make the 
observation have any choice in how or whether the 
observation is made.

The concept of "probablity" as described by Wheeler and 
quantum physics, is merely the latitude in the _model_, 
and in our current predictive tools. There is no latitude 
in the real world, merely in the tools we use to describe 
it.

Stating that "the probablility function collapses" or that 
the observation "causes" one probablility to become "real",
is just confusing the map with the territory. 
 
To look at it another way, the "problems" with causality 
are only problems because people are looking at the situation 
arse about face. From the point of view of the observer a 
billion years ago, eveything is completely predictable. 

_Because_ of the photon doing one thing now (in the past), 
it _will_ be observed at a particular time and place and manner 
in the future. 

A violation of causality will only occur if the physicists 
do _not_ make the observation. But they cannot fail to make 
the observation because they are part of the universe, and 
their actions have already been predestined by the particle 
action in the past.

Wheeler's argument is similar to asking you to accept the 
hypothesis that because you are now reading this mail, you 
are somehow influencing me to write it in the past, and that 
if you didn't read it, I would not have written it, rather 
than accepting the simpler hypothesis that you are reading 
it now because I wrote it previously.

<big grin>

Frankie


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 06:27:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Sun Aug 11 05:27:25 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was  COTI website)
References: <20020804060231.5D9A02793A@mail.travellercentral.com> <3.0.5.16.20020804110019.353f3a82@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3D5643B6.2010801@gmx.net>

Douglas E. Berry wrote:

>At 04:21 PM 8/4/2002 +0800, you wrote:
>  
>
>>Was that spam and eggs
>>or spam, spam egs and spam?
>>    
>>
>
>Spam spam spam spam spam spam spam lovely spam, wonderful spam...
>  
>
bloody space vikings...

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 06:34:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug 11 05:34:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
Message-ID: <200208111232.MNT00071@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Frankie says
>Wheeler's argument is similar to asking you to accept the 
>hypothesis that because you are now reading this mail, you 
>are somehow influencing me to write it in the past, and that 
>if you didn't read it, I would not have written it, rather 
>than accepting the simpler hypothesis that you are reading 
>it now because I wrote it previously.

There was a brilliant explanation in the book Timeline, where 
one character tells the other not to resort to explanation by 
statistics or math.  

So, we'll skip the probability functions, etc, and the 
causality questions, and say:

In this particular universe, I'm reading your email.

Wow.  A new acronym to go with RL, IMTU, etc.  ITPU.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 07:14:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sun Aug 11 06:14:07 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was  COTI website)
In-Reply-To: <3D5643B6.2010801@gmx.net>
References: <20020804060231.5D9A02793A@mail.travellercentral.com>
 <3.0.5.16.20020804110019.353f3a82@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020811081452.00a9c100@minn.net>

At 09:00 PM 8/11/2002 +1000, Robert Houghton wrote:
>Douglas E. Berry wrote:

>>>Was that spam and eggs
>>>or spam, spam egs and spam?
>>>    
>>>
>>
>>Spam spam spam spam spam spam spam lovely spam, wonderful spam...
>>  
>>
>bloody space vikings...

Ya sure, you betcha.

Okay fellow travellers, who would you cast in a film version of Space Viking?

I'll start with:

Ian Richardson as King (Goodman) Mikhyl VIII of Marduk.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     My new first rule of advanced weapon testing: Make a backup 
copy of yourself before opening fire.
     --Kevyn, Schlock Mercenary, August 10, 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 09:00:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Sun Aug 11 08:00:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810233138.009e28a0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020811145935.10145.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com>

Are there any gun enthusiasts on the list who would
care to answer this question for me? What's the
purpose of a folding stock besides to make a rifle
easier to conceal? I can see the purpose on a rifle
,but I've seen pistols that had folding stocks, like
some old Mausers.(incredible pistols)What advantage
would this be to a pistol that's already very
concealable? My guess is that it helps stabilize the
gun if it's a semiauto. Anyone care to verify this for
me? Also, how would this translate into Traveller
rules?
thanks.

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 09:13:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Sun Aug 11 08:13:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Strike Cruisers
In-Reply-To: <OF846C706A.217A0A07-ONCA256C02.002526C5@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20020811151201.45130.qmail@web11803.mail.yahoo.com>

I'd say a meson gun allows the strike cruiser to be
> useful both in 
> attacking other ships - especially merchant
> shipping, to cut the logistics 
> tail - AND in the planetary bombardment role.
> 
Speaking of planetary bombardment, does anyone besides
myself expect the pc's to posistion a forward observer
before attacking something dirtside from orbit? Also,
would a forward observer even be necessary for a
spinal mount weapon?

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 09:25:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 08:25:10 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was  COTI website)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020811081452.00a9c100@minn.net>
References: <3D5643B6.2010801@gmx.net>
 <20020804060231.5D9A02793A@mail.travellercentral.com>
 <3.0.5.16.20020804110019.353f3a82@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811111828.01a24b28@192.168.0.1>

At 08:14 AM 8/11/2002 -0500, Leslie Bates wrote:
[snip]
>Okay fellow travellers, who would you cast in a film version of Space Viking?
>I'll start with:
>Ian Richardson as King (Goodman) Mikhyl VIII of Marduk.

Ok, to start, Ben Affleck is not suited to play Lucas Trask....regardless 
of how well DareDevil may do.

Hmmm....I just reread the book based on some comments by Herr Whipsnade.
Let me chew on this one today...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 09:31:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 08:31:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <20020811145935.10145.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810233138.009e28a0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811112434.02696110@192.168.0.1>

At 07:59 AM 8/11/2002 -0700, Daniel Tackett wrote:
>Are there any gun enthusiasts on the list who would
>care to answer this question for me? What's the
>purpose of a folding stock besides to make a rifle
>easier to conceal?

A fringe benefit. The first first time I remember seeing folding stocks was 
in WWII.
Made it less bulk for paratroopers when they where jumping (with a very 
large load of equipment).
Once they where on the ground, the stock was to be extended and used.

>I can see the purpose on a rifle
>,but I've seen pistols that had folding stocks, like
>some old Mausers.(incredible pistols)What advantage
>would this be to a pistol that's already very
>concealable?

Just what is the concealability rating of a broomhandle Mauser? :-)
The stock was to improve accuracy when firing.  It was made it easier to 
control at rapid fire.
Think, pistol/carbine hybrid

>My guess is that it helps stabilize the
>gun if it's a semiauto. Anyone care to verify this for
>me? Also, how would this translate into Traveller
>rules?

FF&S increased the range (and thus accuracy) when a stock was added.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The purpose of the First Amendment's free-speech guarantee was pretty 
clearly to protect political discourse.
But liberals reject the notion that free speech is therefore limited to 
political topics, even broadly defined.
True, that purpose is not inscribed in the amendment itself. But why leap 
to the conclusion that a broadly
worded constitutional freedom ("the right of the people to keep and bear 
arms") is narrowly limited by its
stated purpose, unless you're trying to explain it away? My New Republic 
colleague Mickey Kaus says that if
liberals interpreted the Second Amendment the way they interpret the rest 
of the Bill of Rights, there would be
law professors arguing that gun ownership is mandatory." -- Michael Kinsley 
Washington Post, January 8, 1990
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 09:35:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 08:35:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Land grab webring
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810233001.009e15b0@mindspring.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020810223128.0203be30@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811112842.01a82eb0@192.168.0.1>

At 11:30 PM 8/10/2002 -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
>At 10:31 PM 8/10/02 -0400, you wrote:
>>Any interest in a webring of landgrab sites?
>
>Yes!  It would encourage me to get a few planets put together and on the web.

Ok, that's two yes votes (besides me).  I'm willing to set it up and 
administer it.
It might be nice to have the home page as the downport landgrab page.

I would host it at ringsurf.com, which is run by our friends at Quiklinks, 
who also make GRIP Traveller and T20.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 10:38:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug 11 09:38:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
Message-ID: <200208111636.MOB00195@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Daniel Tackett says
>What's the purpose of a folding stock besides to make a rifle
>easier to conceal? 
It is not primarily to make a rifle easier to conceal.  It is 
to make the rifle easier to take aboard a confined space, 
such as inside a vehicle (inside a helicopter, grav vehicle, 
etc).

If you get the chance, look at some assault rifles with 
folding stocks.  Unless you're riding in a confined space, 
you'll always have the stock unfolded.  It dramatically 
reduces the effective range of the rifle to use it with the 
stock folded.

>,but I've seen pistols that had folding stocks, like
>some old Mausers.(incredible pistols)

A Mauser is not exactly a concealable pistol, with or without 
the additional stock

>What advantage would this be to a pistol that's already very
>concealable? 

I personally don't believe it adds much to a semi auto 
pistol, since pistol cartridges are of a limited range 
already.  You'll see it on some full auto pistol-sized 
weapons, and there it helps a bit, but those weapons are 
already of a questionable accuracy - they are intended for 
very close use (Skorpion, VP70, etc., are very short range 
weapons).  The sight radius on a pistol weapon with stock is 
still really short even when compared to a carbine or assault 
rifle.

I believe that folding stocks are already covered in the 
LBBs, as well as other rule systems such as GURPS.

IMHO, the effect of folding stocks on the time required to 
aim at a target, as well as the maximum aim benefit per unit 
time is best modeled in Phoenix Command Combat System.  None 
of the other systems adequately model this.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 10:40:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug 11 09:40:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day
Message-ID: <4b3d946bd5.46bd54b3d9@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
Date: Saturday, August 10, 2002 11:32 pm
Subject: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day

> Groth has another long night as SDNCO.  Routine, and 
> routinely boring.  After all, Imperial peacekeeping duty on 
> Garda-Vilis has been going on for over 20 years....
> 
> Still, he's trying to keep sharp, and learn new skills.  He's 
> hoping to improve his language skill in Vargr.
> 
> The corporal sitting next to him is engrossed in the latest 
> military tri-D.  Groth goes into the battalion office - 
> hopefully he can keep this private.
> 
> Unbeknownst to Groth, the S3 is keeping a late night, and 
> comes around to the office area.  Groth, engrossed in his 
> woofing, doesn't notice the major looking at him.
> 
> The major clears his throat.  He knows Groth is working hard, 
> but he's never gotten used to the idea of men growling and 
> barking like dogs.

Clearly this officer has spent precious little time around 
infantrymen.... ;-)
  
> "Carry on, sergeant."

I must thank you for an exceptionally amusing mental picture.

Meanwhile, this one _really_ happened over here during my first Sinai 
tour in 1986:

I had purchased a bottle of bubble liquid at the Force Exchange.  One 
fine night, at about 2200 hours, I was standing outside my barracks, 
allowing the wind to blow bubbles (we had a good 20-knot breeze off the 
Gulf of Aqaba that night [and most nights, for that matter]).  The 
battalion command sergeant major, CSM Rath (which is an _excellent_ name 
for a sergeant major) drives by in his jeep.  He stops, looks at me for 
a moment, shakes his head and drives away, no doubt thinking that the 
S-5 section had been in theater a bit too long....




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 10:52:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Coy Krill)
Date: Sun Aug 11 09:52:09 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Dougs MOS and Language (was Audible Signature...)
Message-ID: <200208110950.37885.coy.krill@verizon.net>

Douglas Berry wrote:

>Of course, given my MOS and assigned (_not_ chosen!) target language, 
>that could be a couple of decades from now.... :-(

What's your MOS and target language?

Coy
Former 96C/97E targetting Persian Farsi 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 10:54:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug 11 09:54:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day
Message-ID: <514a852165.52165514a8@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net>
Date: Sunday, August 11, 2002 2:38 am
Subject: Re: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day

> At 04:32 PM 8/10/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> >
> >The major clears his throat.  He knows Groth is working hard, 
> >but he's never gotten used to the idea of men growling and 
> >barking like dogs. 
> >
> >"Carry on, sergeant."
> 
> I have to use this somehow.
> 
> Darn it.

As an aside, this would probably be a great-nephew of (and named for) 
SEH recipient SSG John E. Groth (see GT:GF for details).

SSG Groth (the SEH recipient) didn't live long enough to have children, 
hence no grandchildren.  The SFC Groth who's writing this right now has 
no children either, but that's not due to experiencing first-hand the 
difference between "bullet-proof" and "bullet-resistant"....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 11:56:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sun Aug 11 10:56:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Settlement date of Vilis
In-Reply-To: <20020811071903.23547.84149.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208111946470.3227-100000@ask.diku.dk>

John T. Kwon writes:
>Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen says
>>Vilis will need to be an unusually well-
>>organized and unusually successful colony venture in order
>>to grow to a point where it can impose its will on a
>>long-established world in just 50 years.
>
>
>That's the problem I had with the positive 240 date.  It
>would have to be a societal miracle on the scale of the Meiji
>Period in real life.  Japan going from 16th to 20th century
>in 40 years - and being able to project credible military
>power at the end of that period.

But it's not inconcievable that it could happen. Therefore it happened. It
only remains to figure out just how it happened.

I'm all in favor of correcting inconsistent canonical data, but only if it
is the only way to account for it. IMO this is not the case here. Unlikely,
yes, impossible, no.



Hans



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 12:10:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 11:10:07 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEMCCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>
>     Please see a mental health professional as soon as possible.  While
>Whipsnade's Syndrome is terminal, the final stages may be delayed long
>enough to allow the sufferers a nearly normal life.  The usual prescription
>involves a daily dose of alcohol.

No problem.  Why just last night I attended the Queen's Ball, a party to
celebrate the birthday of the Queen of Thailand.  My friend George, with
whom I had spent the day sailing a 22 foot sloop in San Francisco Bay
(however you remember the weather on the bay in August, you are probably
right, as we had a some of everything, plus our outboard malfunctioned while
we were becalmed), also attended.  We consumed enough alcohol -- primarily
gin and tonics -- to make up for the previous week's abstinence.  (Yes, I
believe my fiancee and her 16.75-year-old daughter were also there -- come
to think of it, I think George was making lewd comments about the daughter
during her dance performance -- but I don't recall too well.)  Umm ... what
was the rest of this discussion about?

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 12:12:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Sun Aug 11 11:12:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <200208111636.MOB00195@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020811181003.52567.qmail@web11804.mail.yahoo.com>

A Mauser is not exactly a concealable pistol, with
> or without 
> the additional stock

Hmm, just my assumtion on the matter. I figured that's
was why people saw off the stocks of shotguns; after
also sawing off the barrel ,of course. It does make it
somewhat concealable, but I of course, I think your
point was that if you want concealment, why a Mauser?
Mausers just came to mind because they're my favorite
gun. I'm no enthusiast, but I've always thought they
were cool. 

> IMHO, the effect of folding stocks on the time
> required to 
> aim at a target, as well as the maximum aim benefit
> per unit 
> time is best modeled in Phoenix Command Combat
> System.  None 
> of the other systems adequately model this.
THanks for the information. I, of course, looked at
the CT rules on stocks, but they gave no specific
benefits,except that it made the gun shorter,and
lighter, and a little more accurate at long ranges.
Unfortunately, I never got FF&S after GDW went under.
Hard to find.  I've never really looked for it online
though.
    I'm not familiar with the Phoenix Command Combat
system. I've heard of it,but that's it. I've seen a
link to it somewhere.

THanks for the information gentlemen.
Dan.
 > ________________
> Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
> Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 12:18:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug 11 11:18:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Settlement date of Vilis
Message-ID: <200208111816.MOD01276@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen says
>But it's not inconcievable that it could happen. Therefore 
>it happened. It only remains to figure out just how it 
>happened.
>

Well, the other thing I'm looking at is the radical 
population size currently noted. It's in the billions.  I'm 
thinking that whatever drove them to leave Gungnir is the 
same thing that drove them to achieve local power very 
quickly, and in a short period of time, grow from what had to 
be less than a million colonists (being generous) to billions.

They're living in a representative democracy. I'm thinking 
that they are not as obsessed with military spending on Vilis 
as they were in the Sword Worlds.  That might also explain 
why they did their Garda-Vilis intervention in the Broadsword 
adventure on such a small shoestring budget.

Over a long time period, with no major battles to fight, 
Vilis might not feel pressure to have high tech advances (on 
Earth at least, most tech innovation is the result of 
military research).  But they might be farmers, factory 
workers, and consumers along the same lines as the Japanese.

Gee, I keep getting that parallel, whether it's the Meiji 
period or current Japan.

It almost makes Frenzie look like Okinawa.  Perhaps the 
reasone that the original people left for Vilis is that they 
were pacifists - they didn't want a military culture.

A mild resurgence of military thought merges with "do good" 
government to intervene in Garda-Vilis.  But there's no real 
budget or large military to do it.

________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 12:29:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sun Aug 11 11:29:10 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt> <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <02081114275201.00604@linux>

>   >If planets are so self sufficient, then why does TNE describe planets
>   >failing because they were cut off from interstellar trade?

	Planets in the Imperium are not self sufficient unless they want to be seen 
as hopelessly isolationist and thus not entirely open to trade or political 
ties with the Imperium.


> Longer-term dependence on a scale of centuries may be a possibility,
> but I personally think it far more likely that if trade was cut, it
> would not take that long to develop local resources to cover or avoid
> the very small shortfall.

	 My position is that rockballs have NO local resources except rocks to 
develope. All other resources had to be imported at some point in time and 
that if they are no longer imported, then they must be renewable. Therefore , 
in my opinion, rockballs are not really viable for hi-pop hi-tech worlds.
I believe that the uwp procedure is broken and can give unreasonable results.

> > Thats all I'm saying... given sufficient stress to the system
> > (irrespective of which particular Traveller setting you use), you
> > can Fail any planet that isn't capable of supporting life without
> > TL9+ intervention.

	 Can humans  guarantee a self sufficient base on mars anytime soon?
On the moon?.  What is the lowest tech level where this could be possible?

> That's rather a guarded and qualified statement.  I'd go further and
> say that given sufficient stress to the system, you can Fail any
> planet at all!

	Yes. given sufficient stress.

> But it won't be due to lack of trade, which was the contention of the
> original post.

	No. It will be because of the upset in the world's economy as they adjust to 
lack of trade. <massive layoffs, crashing markets, etc. >
I find that the biggest concern is wealth distribution. Can the 'haves' 
readjust the economy fast enough that the 'have-nots' won't be driven to 
serious social unrest in order to eat. I am thinking of the French Revolution 
or the Russian Revolution in scope. Maybe those worlds that wouldn't be too 
unduly stressed are all hippie communes where everyone has equal access to 
all goods.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 12:32:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sun Aug 11 11:32:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <3D540E41.1040509@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <20020809190742.B3949@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D540E41.1040509@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <02081011564600.00603@linux>

>
> Each set of rules is indeed a different universe.
>
> Hard Times describes the MT Late Rebellion universe. GT:FT describes the
> steady state 'Strephon walks out of the shower' universe. WBH describes
> an early rebellion/CT universe.
>
> The fact that they all share remarkable similarities in background story
> is mere coincidence ;-)

	They are all in the same universe but just in different time periods.
Therefore... as laws  of physics and economics should be consistant, then the 
rules must all give similar outcomes. In my little 'test', I did not mix the 
rules, just showed what each set would give as possible outcomes. As each 
ruleset seems to concentrate on different aspects, no one set gives a full 
answer. I found that each in turn did give its own insight to the situation. 
One can then pick and choose from the outcomes.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 12:37:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sun Aug 11 11:37:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <02081114040900.00604@linux>


>
> A massive drop in tech level seems *exceedingly* unlikely though.  In
> trade volume terms, it would be like the Phillipines "abandoning" the
> economy of the rest of the world, causing the rest of the world to
> experience a massive economic slump, rioting, civil unrest, and
> reversion to pre-WWI technology.  No offense to inhabitants of the
> Phillipines, but I don't think they prop up the rest of the world.

	That sounds like the tail wagging the dog. Perhaps such effects would occur 
if the entire world abandoned, say, Japan to some degree. The loss of trade 
would affect the world more than it would affect the Imperium.

> Likewise, I don't think the minute volume of trade props up the
> high-pop worlds in Traveller.
>
	I believe that it props up the econmies of the worlds to a greater degree 
than you suggest. According to GDW, any world that was completely 
self-supporting was seen as being dangerously isolationist. The Imperium 
would no doubt put political pressure on the world to be better integrated 
into the imperial economy and the megacorps would put trade pressure on such 
a world in order to promote better manufacturing efficiences in the much 
larger Imperial market. Trade is an enormous carrot or damaging stick when 
dealing with another political entity.

> That's broken.  An average hectare per person assigned to food
> production is ample even with current technology and without trying
> hard.  Tech level 15 should be able to do *much* better.

	If it is broken then I feel all reasonable efforts should be made to fix it.

> > without even considering area for housing or industry or materials
> > production. IT would take a tech 15 arcology 25000 km^2 just to
> > house everyone.

	I forgot the equation for surface area of a sphere so I guesstimated it to 
be about 60% of the area of a cube of equal size, probably wrong. My point 
was to show lack of space for the population, agriculture, manufacturing, 
resources, energy production, etc.  I followed the rules without comparing 
them as yet to the RW.

> That's not a problem, even if you do decide to abandon the surface.
> Traveller fusion power is *really* cheap.  A megawatt would cost no
> more than Cr10/week.  It would certainly take much less power than a
> megawatt per person to grow food.

	My calculations were for a tech15 world as a best case. At lower tech levels 
in could become a problem. 
	I still want to know why anyone would advocate the population of the earth 
being shoehorned on a rock half the size of the moon. The old excuses wear 
thin after a few times.
	Why was trade halted anyway? The only two reasons I know would be in the 
case of war. Or if it was simply no longer profittable for a corp to keep 
sending ships there. Who and why would anyone fund such a thing on this scale?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 12:40:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug 11 11:40:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
Message-ID: <200208111835.MOF00148@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Daniel Tackett says
>    I'm not familiar with the Phoenix Command Combat
>system. I've heard of it,but that's it.

It has an interesting concept called Aim Time.  When you're 
expending actions during a combat round, you can decide how 
many actions you're going to spend aiming.  You can spend 
zero time aiming (not a good idea), or as long as 12 actions 
(for some characters, two or three combat rounds or longer) 
aiming at a target.

A typical pistol (the M1911A1) has an aim time listed as 
follows:

Action   DM
1        -18
2        -11
3        -10
4        -9
5        -8
6        -7

The DM is not against a die roll - it slides you up and down 
a chart.  So don't get excited by the big numbers.

It doesn't do any good to aim an iron sighted .45 longer than 
6 actions, and a person with high skill and speed will reach 
this point in less than a 2 second combat round.  Someone who 
is seeing the weapon for the first time may take more than 
three combat rounds to get to this point.  And you may have a 
high skill, but be fat, old, and slow.

Then the skill DM is applied.  Obviously, if your skill is 
high enough, you can fire on every other action count or so, 
and still hit people close to you, while someone with little 
or no skill is just going to make a lot of noise, or fire 
infrequently.  And if your skill AND speed are high, you'll 
not only fire rapidly, you'll be able to selectively do 
things like the Mozambique drill.

By comparison, an M1 Carbine has the following Aim Time mods.

Action   DM
1        -23
2        -12
3        -9
4        -7
5        -6
6        -4
7        -3
8        -2
9        -2
10       -1
11       0

You'll notice that even if you don't have much skill, if you 
aim long enough, you can get a decent shot with a stocked 
weapon.  Weapons with certain types of scopes will eventually 
achieve a positive DM, while those with red dot sights may 
achieve a positive DM in less time.

If someone has high skill, and a semi-auto sniper rifle, and 
has the targets within a small cone closer than 200 yards 
away, a lot of people are going to get hit in rapid 
succession in specific body parts.

There is also an accomodation for maximum ballistic accuracy 
for every weapon - no matter how good you are, the weapon 
can't be any more accurate than a specific value at a 
specific distance.  

________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 12:43:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sun Aug 11 11:43:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <20810.075757.1b1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20810.075757.1b1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <02081114403102.00604@linux>

> >>If we can't follow our own laws except when it is convenient, we are
> >>all at the mercy of anybody in a position of authorty.
> >
> > Welcome to the "rule of men, not laws".

 "Laws are written in sand, but customs are written in stone"

Mark Twain....supergenius


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 12:45:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug 11 11:45:55 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
Message-ID: <200208111839.MOF00316@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

richard honeycutt says
<snip stuff about trade>

In whatever ways the trade rules may be broken, or not make 
any sense, I still go back to Traders and Gunboats, and the 
comment that the primary reason for interstellar travel is 
trade.

They say clearly that there is a lot of trade.  A lot of 
trade makes sense. 

If space travel was as easy in RL as it is in Traveller, we 
would have colonized a lot of places by now.  And we would 
have trade with the colonies.  A lot of trade.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 12:51:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Aug 11 11:51:05 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Dougs MOS and Language (was Audible Signature...)
In-Reply-To: <200208110950.37885.coy.krill@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020811114253.009e6900@mindspring.com>

At 09:50 AM 8/11/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry wrote:
>
> >Of course, given my MOS and assigned (_not_ chosen!) target language,
> >that could be a couple of decades from now.... :-(
>
>What's your MOS and target language?

My MOS was 11-B.  John Groth  talks to 'em, I just put bullets in their bodies.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 13:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Aug 11 12:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810093741.009f6d90@mindspring.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810093741.009f6d90@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m365yhfc15.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
> 
> I gave him official author dispensation to not have Marines in
> kilts.  Put 'em in clown suits for all I care.

THe 31st REgina Cream-piedeers?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
God saved a few pieces of Eden when he gave us the boot, and one of
the best is the fact that any fruit containing sugar will turn to
booze if you leave it to ferment.
   --http://www.soyouwanna.com/site/syws/basicwine/basicwine.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 13:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sun Aug 11 12:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811111828.01a24b28@192.168.0.1>
References: <3D5643B6.2010801@gmx.net> <20020804060231.5D9A02793A@mail.travellercentral.com> <3.0.5.16.20020804110019.353f3a82@pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20020811081452.00a9c100@minn.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020811111828.01a24b28@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <cvadlu853frpfp0389497526i1dsmdu01f@4ax.com>

On Sun, 11 Aug 2002 11:22:18 -0400, Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net>
wrote:

>At 08:14 AM 8/11/2002 -0500, Leslie Bates wrote:
>[snip]
>>Okay fellow travellers, who would you cast in a film version of Space =
Viking?
>>I'll start with:
>>Ian Richardson as King (Goodman) Mikhyl VIII of Marduk.
>
>Ok, to start, Ben Affleck is not suited to play Lucas =
Trask....regardless=20
>of how well DareDevil may do.
>
><SNIP>

I don't know about that; he's tall, handsome (though I'll have to
trust members of the other gender for a final ruling there), of
aproximately the correct age, and would seem capable of conveying the
sort of grim rage and determination that would be necessary to pursue
his foe for years and at the expense of losing his fief.

Other contemporaries to rule out:  Freddie Prinz, Jr.; Matthew
Lillard; Casper Van Dien (probably killed all future SF efforts by
appearing in Starship Troopers); Vin Diesel (of the current XXX).

Matt Damon, Afleck's childhood friend and frequent co-star, might be
another who could pull off the role.  Other possibilities escape me at
the moment.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 13:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sun Aug 11 12:33:03 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <02081114275201.00604@linux>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt> <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net> <02081114275201.00604@linux>
Message-ID: <2gedluka0l386dc7fqq7dug98nmh03gm7p@4ax.com>

On Sun, 11 Aug 2002 14:27:52 -0400, richard honeycutt
<richard@usisp.com> wrote:

><SNIP>
>
>> But it won't be due to lack of trade, which was the contention of the
>> original post.
>
>	No. It will be because of the upset in the world's economy as they =
adjust to=20
>lack of trade. <massive layoffs, crashing markets, etc. >
>I find that the biggest concern is wealth distribution. Can the 'haves'=20
>readjust the economy fast enough that the 'have-nots' won't be driven to=
=20
>serious social unrest in order to eat. I am thinking of the French =
Revolution=20
>or the Russian Revolution in scope. Maybe those worlds that wouldn't be =
too=20
>unduly stressed are all hippie communes where everyone has equal access =
to=20
>all goods.

I've generally been staying out of this argument, but I have to repeat
the point being made by other.  You are contending that this economy
is so fragile that a 3% drop in the world's economy (which is what
interstellar trade represents), would be sufficient to collapse social
fabric and bring about a general revolution?

I tend to agree with those who feel that the drop in trade alone is
insufficient to explain this fall.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 13:35:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug 11 12:35:12 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Dougs MOS and Language (was Audible Signature...)
Message-ID: <a28d9168.9168a28d@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Date: Sunday, August 11, 2002 9:43 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] OT: Dougs MOS and Language (was Audible Signature...)

> At 09:50 AM 8/11/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >Douglas Berry wrote:
> >
> > >Of course, given my MOS and assigned (_not_ chosen!) target 
> language,> >that could be a couple of decades from now.... :-(
> >
> >What's your MOS and target language?
> 
> My MOS was 11-B.  John Groth  talks to 'em, I just put bullets in 
> their bodies.

Assuming that they hold off on surrendering long enough for you to shoot 
at them.... ;-)

To answer the question, my MOS is 97E4P00AE.  And yes, I too went 
through Fort We-Gotcha when the MOS code was 96C.... ;-)

Now you see why I don't expect to retire when I'm eligible.... :-(


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 13:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug 11 12:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Settlement date of Vilis
Message-ID: <699d3c20.3c20699d@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Date: Sunday, August 11, 2002 8:55 pm
Subject: [TML] Re: Settlement date of Vilis

> John T. Kwon writes:
> >Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen says
> >>Vilis will need to be an unusually well-
> >>organized and unusually successful colony venture in order
> >>to grow to a point where it can impose its will on a
> >>long-established world in just 50 years.
> >
> >
> >That's the problem I had with the positive 240 date.  It
> >would have to be a societal miracle on the scale of the Meiji
> >Period in real life.  Japan going from 16th to 20th century
> >in 40 years - and being able to project credible military
> >power at the end of that period.
> 
> But it's not inconcievable that it could happen. Therefore it 
> happened. It
> only remains to figure out just how it happened.
> 
> I'm all in favor of correcting inconsistent canonical data, but 
> only if it
> is the only way to account for it. IMO this is not the case here. 
> Unlikely,yes, impossible, no.

Well, one possibility is that the Vilis colonists went in "loaded for 
bear" (given a turbulent situation in the Sword Worlds, this seems a 
reasonable approach), with a number of heavily-armed starships as an 
escort squadron.  Fifty years later, the escort squadron is still 
powerful enough to overawe and/or overwhelm a technologically-backward 
Tanoose, thus converting Tanoose to Garda-Vilis.  Once the conquest is 
secure, G-V lacks the spaceborne assets to contest further occupation, 
hence the low-level guerrilla war between Tanoosian nationalists and the 
Vilis occupiers.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 13:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug 11 12:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
Message-ID: <200208111949.MOH00506@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

JR Holmes says
>Other contemporaries to rule out:  Freddie Prinz, Jr.; 
>Matthew Lillard; Casper Van Dien (probably killed all future 
>SF efforts by appearing in Starship Troopers); Vin Diesel 
>(of the current XXX).
>
>Matt Damon, Afleck's childhood friend and frequent co-star, 
>might be another who could pull off the role.  Other 
>possibilities escape me at
>the moment.

Josh Hartnett would be good.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 14:04:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug 11 13:04:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Failed Worlds
Message-ID: <12e.15b8a75b.2a881d23@aol.com>

 >In whatever ways the trade rules may be broken, or not make 
 >any sense, I still go back to Traders and Gunboats, and the 
 >comment that the primary reason for interstellar travel is 
 >trade.
 >
 >They say clearly that there is a lot of trade.  A lot of 
 >trade makes sense.

Depends on what you mean by "a lot".  Consider trade amounting to 0.4% (a 
number cited earlier) of a 10 billion population world's productivity.  Seen 
from the perspective of an individual trader with a 400 ton merchant ship 
then that's an awful lot of goods being flown around, but as a percentage of 
that world's economy it's not world-breaking.

The planet generation system is simply random.  It generates arbitrary 
results and leaves it to the referee to rationalize why things turned out the 
way they did.  This may lead to interesting game plots, but it cannot bear 
the level of scrutiny and examination that is being given it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 14:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 13:25:02 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in
 traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <02081114275201.00604@linux>
References: <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
 <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt>
 <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811161742.01d43ec8@192.168.0.1>

At 02:27 PM 8/11/2002 -0400, richard honeycutt wrote:
>          Can humans  guarantee a self sufficient base on mars anytime soon?
>On the moon?.  What is the lowest tech level where this could be possible?


For the moon, I'd have to say yes, we could if we put our mind to it.
My memory says that there were recent discoveries that makes water 
available on the moon.
<http://physicsweb.org/article/news/2/3/5>
Having a local water supply makes it much easier.
The major effort is convincing a government with the money & tech to do it.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 14:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Aug 11 13:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <20020811145935.10145.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B97C1824.694A5%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/11/02 7:59 AM, Daniel Tackett at haegen2001@yahoo.com wrote:

> Are there any gun enthusiasts on the list who would
> care to answer this question for me? What's the
> purpose of a folding stock besides to make a rifle
> easier to conceal?

Typically, the purpose of a folding stock is not to make a weapon easier to
conceal, but rather to reduce storage space.  This is particularly useful
for people like vehicle crews.

>I can see the purpose on a rifle
> ,but I've seen pistols that had folding stocks, like
> some old Mausers.(incredible pistols)What advantage
> would this be to a pistol that's already very
> concealable? My guess is that it helps stabilize the
> gun if it's a semiauto.

Detachable/folding stocks on pistols are of suspect value.  While it is tru=
e
that it is much easier to accurately aim a shoulder fired weapon, most
handguns benefit very little from the added stability because their range i=
s
effectively limited by their cartridges.

Still, in general a stocked weapon is easier to aim and keep on target than
one held freehand.  An in the case of some weapon, like the artillery and
Naval model P-08 (luger) and the C96 (broom handle) Mauser, there are reall=
y
more like stockless carbines than pistols.  Stocking these weapon can
realistically increase the 'usable' range from less than 50 to about 100
meters.

While this may seem insignificant, one must bear in mind that about 70% of
all infantry combat occurs at a range of less that 100 meters.  For
artillery crews and others who's primary mission is not infantry combat,
this at least gives them a weapon more effective than just a standard
handgun.


> Anyone care to verify this for
> me? Also, how would this translate into Traveller
> rules?
> thanks.
>=20

DMs for folding stocks are given in Book 1 of CT.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 14:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 13:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <200208111949.MOH00506@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811162447.01739e78@192.168.0.1>

At 03:49 PM 8/11/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>JR Holmes says
> >Other contemporaries to rule out:  Freddie Prinz, Jr.;
> >Matthew Lillard; Casper Van Dien (probably killed all future
> >SF efforts by appearing in Starship Troopers); Vin Diesel
> >(of the current XXX).
> >Matt Damon, Afleck's childhood friend and frequent co-star,
> >might be another who could pull off the role.  Other
> >possibilities escape me at
> >the moment.
>Josh Hartnett would be good.

Yes.  Afleck is just a bit too 'pretty' for Trask. Perhaps as Prince Bentrik.

Now...who to play Otto Harkaman?


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 14:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sun Aug 11 13:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811162447.01739e78@192.168.0.1>
References: <200208111949.MOH00506@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020811155443.00aa06c0@minn.net>

At 04:33 PM 8/11/2002 -0400, Mark Urbin wrote:


>Yes.  Afleck is just a bit too 'pretty' for Trask. Perhaps as Prince Bentrik.

Kenneth Branaugh (sp?) as Prince Bentrik.

>Now...who to play Otto Harkaman?

Twenty years ago I would have gone with Clint Eastwood as Harkaman. Need
someone really tall.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 14:56:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sun Aug 11 13:56:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Failed Worlds
References: <12e.15b8a75b.2a881d23@aol.com>
Message-ID: <004001c24179$4a42b850$7400a8c0@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: <Flykiller@aol.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 11, 2002 9:03 PM
Subject: [TML] Re: Failed Worlds


> >In whatever ways the trade rules may be broken, or not make
>  >any sense, I still go back to Traders and Gunboats, and the
>  >comment that the primary reason for interstellar travel is
>  >trade.
>  >
>  >They say clearly that there is a lot of trade.  A lot of
>  >trade makes sense.
>
> Depends on what you mean by "a lot".  Consider trade amounting to 0.4% (a
> number cited earlier) of a 10 billion population world's productivity.
Seen
> from the perspective of an individual trader with a 400 ton merchant ship
> then that's an awful lot of goods being flown around, but as a percentage
of
> that world's economy it's not world-breaking.
>
> The planet generation system is simply random.  It generates arbitrary
> results and leaves it to the referee to rationalize why things turned out
the
> way they did.  This may lead to interesting game plots, but it cannot bear
> the level of scrutiny and examination that is being given it.

The problem is that the trade rules are broken.

No-one seems to be taking into account intra-system trade stopping. If you
rely on resources from asteroid or comet mining, or you are scattered
throught a system in thousands of smaller outposts rather than all clumped
on one rockball,  and spacecraft trade in-system stops as well as out-system
then you are screwed.

Also, monetary value alone doesn't fully represent the reliance a place may
have for a low cost but essential resource not available locally. Say the
atmophere filters on a planet with a badly tainted, but otherwise
breathable, atmoshere require a relatively cheap catalyst that is not
available locally. These filters constantly need replacing, but the cost is
only a few 10's of millions of Cr a year. Suddenly all external trade
stops... as a percentage of your GWP it is a drop in the ocean, but in terms
of the planets viability it is tremendous.

Matt



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 14:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Spencer)
Date: Sun Aug 11 13:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
Message-ID: <B97C1CBE.3DF5%shadowjack@skyhighway.com>

Now, to really capture Starship Troopers in a movie, we should draw from the
time it was written, which was...[pulls out the book, checks the publishing
date]...1959.

I was about to be silly and say, "John Wayne as Raczak! And Elvis Presley as
'little' Johhny Rico!"

But then I stopped to think about it...


John Ford.


The year is 1960. John Ford directing.

And yes, John Wayne as Raczak.

Henry Fonda. (as DuBois?)

James Stewart. (as Captain Frankel?)

All of those guys.

James Dean as Rico. I know, he died in 1955. I don't care.

Ray Harryhausen does the special effects, backed up by the team from
"Forbidden Planet".

Electronic tonalities by Bebe and Louis Barron (also from "Forbidden
Planet"), and marches by the United States Marine Band.

Film it right out there in Monument Valley.

THERE'S a proper book-to-movie adaptation.

Yeah.


Damn. 


I wish I had it on DVD.
-- 
William Spencer         shadowjack@skyhighway.com

"Air conditioning had a fundamental impact on the country, contributing
along with the civil rights movement...If I had to make an estimate, it's
about 50-50 in terms of the importance of the two of them." - Richard
Nathan, Director of the Rockefeller Institute of Government at the State
University of New York


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 15:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bernie McGeehan)
Date: Sun Aug 11 14:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Land grab webring
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811112842.01a82eb0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020811211638.72037.qmail@web13401.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> wrote:
> At 11:30 PM 8/10/2002 -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
> >At 10:31 PM 8/10/02 -0400, you wrote:
> >>Any interest in a webring of landgrab sites?
> >
> >Yes!  It would encourage me to get a few planets
> put together and on the web.
> 
> Ok, that's two yes votes (besides me).  I'm willing
> to set it up and 
> administer it.
> It might be nice to have the home page as the
> downport landgrab page.
> 
> I would host it at ringsurf.com, which is run by our
> friends at Quiklinks, 
> who also make GRIP Traveller and T20.
Feel free to use the Rockhead graphics, etc, if you
like. I've run out of time to do it right.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 15:20:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sun Aug 11 14:20:00 2002
Subject: [TML] Dork Tower # 19, Page 25.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020811155443.00aa06c0@minn.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811162447.01739e78@192.168.0.1>
 <200208111949.MOH00506@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020811161823.00aa3660@minn.net>

Has anyone tried the Solomani Peanut Butter, Bread and Syrup yet?

Or (the Creative Ruling Consciousness help us) IGOR BARS?


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 15:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sun Aug 11 14:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <20020811071903.23547.84149.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208112318180.3568-100000@ask.diku.dk>

I wrote:
>Here is a list of book titles and short summaries thereof that I worked
>out for the books. Bear in mind that while they are supposedly semi-
>biographical, the emphasis is in some cases on the semi. I would not, for
>instance, put much faith in the supposed first meeting between him and
>Arbellatra ;-)

Oops. I left out the last part of the list, without which my post made
considerably less sense. I'm posting the rest here. I usually trim my
quotes as much as possible, but in this case I'll repost the first part of
the list so that it is all in one place.

> "Young Lord Alderon"    Lishun 586      Young Kevin Alderon decides to
>   					join the Navy.
>
> "Ensign Alderon"        Core 588        Kevin Alderon attends Naval
> 					Academy on Capital.
> |
> |Never written                          Sublieutenant Alderon.
> |
>
> "Lieutenant Alderon"    Vland 594       Lieutenant Alderon foils Vargr
> 					spys and meets a young vargr named
> 					Soegz.
>
> "Liutenant Alderon      Corridor 596    Lieutenant  Alderon  battles Vargr
>  and the Raiders"                       raiders along the Corridor border.
>
> "Lt. Cmdr. Alderon"     Deneb 600
>
> "Commander Alderon"     Sp. Mar. 604
>
> "Commander Alderon      Sp. Mar. 605    A   brilliant  young  ensign named
>  and the ensign"                        Arbellatra  serves  under Commander
>                                         Alderon who promotes  her over the
> 					head of older ensigns.
>
> "Commander Alderon      Tr. Rch. 613    Commander Alderon protects a client
>  and the _ihatei_"                      state in the Outrim Void from Aslan
>                                         settlers, eventually finding alter-
>                                         native land for the Aslans.
>
> "Captain Alderon"       Sp. Mar. 615    The outbreak of the Second Frontier
>                                         War  brings Kevin Alderon his long-
>                                         deserved promotion to captain.
>
> "Captain Alderon's      Sp. Mar. 619    Alderon becomes Flag Captain to Ar-
>  Flag"                                  bellatra, the newly-appointed Grand
>                                         Admiral of the Marches.


"Lord Alderon's         Deneb 620       After the defeat of The Outworld
 Choice"                                Arbellatra and her loyal men must
                                        decide whether to attempt to save
                                        the Imperium.

"Lord Alderon and       Core 622        While  Arbellatra  and  Soegz lays
 the Rebel Fleet"                       siege to Capital, Lord Alderon with
                                        a  rag-tag  fleet  must  prevent a
                                        superior  force from coming to the
                                        old emperor's aid.

"Lord Alderon and       Core 622        The final days of the Siege of Capi-
 the Regent"                            tal.

"Lord Alderon and       Antares 624     Lord Alderon  helps  Admiral Soegz
 the Archduke"                          claim his new Archduchy.

"Lord Alderon and       Core 629
 the Empress"

>Was Kevin Alderon no more than Arbellatra's faithful hatchetman or was he
>the guiding hand behind her? Whoever eventually writes the Civil War
>sourcebook will have to decide ;-D.


BTW, someone said that Arbellatra would have to leave the Marches before
the 2FW was over in order to trounce Gustus in 622. I don't think that's
necessary. If the 2FW is over in early 620 and the Civil War in later 622,
A. has some 32-33 months to do the job. From Mora to Vland is 84 parsecs.
That's 28 jump-3s (and only 21 jump-4s, but it's nulikely that A. would
leave behind her jump-3 ships; IMO many of her battleships would only be
jump-3). And a couple of jumps to account for having to jump short. That's
30 jumps. Assume an average of 10 days per jump and A. can get from Mora
to Vland in 10 months. From Vland to Capital is 18 jumps in a straight
line. Call it 21 and it amounts to 7 more months. That leaves 15 to 16
months for A. to negotiate with the Duke of vland, maneuver against
Gustus, and negotiate with the Moot and whoever is in command of Capital's
defenses. Plenty of time.




       Hans Rancke
 University of Copenhagen
      rancke@diku.dk
 ------------
 In my opinion it ought to go without saying that if you work in another
 person's universe, he and anyone else authorized to work in said universe
 is implicitly permitted to use your work as background material. But I
 know it doesn't, so I hereby give my permission for Marc Miller and anyone
 else authorized to work in the Traveller Universe to use the above as
 background material.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 15:58:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 14:58:22 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <02081114275201.00604@linux>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt> <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net> <02081114275201.00604@linux>
Message-ID: <20020812075652.A15923@freeman.little-possums.net>

richard honeycutt wrote:
> 	 My position is that rockballs have NO local resources except rocks to 
> develope.

It's a *system*, not just a planet.  There will almost always be the
usual assortment of asteroids, gas giants, icy moons, comets, and of
course tons of sunlight.  Land a few billion (or trillion) tons of
volatiles when you're building the colony.

What resources *can't* they develop?


You seem to be assuming a rogue world in the depths of interstellar
blackness.


> Therefore , in my opinion, rockballs are not really viable for
> hi-pop hi-tech worlds.

Oh, it's high-tech as well?  OK: add chemical synthesis, genetic
tailoring, automated mining and volatile retrieval operations, fusion
power, and plenty of other capabilities that make it easier still.


> No. It will be because of the upset in the world's economy as they
> adjust to lack of trade. <massive layoffs, crashing markets, etc. >

You're begging the question.  You're *assuming* massive layoffs, etc.
Given that trade accounts for 0.3% of the economy, why such drastic
effects?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 16:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Sun Aug 11 15:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Land grab webring
Message-ID: <200208111700.AA221053246@caddocourt.com>

From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
>Any interest in a webring of landgrab sites?

I would join.

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 16:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Aug 11 15:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
In-Reply-To: <B97C1CBE.3DF5%shadowjack@skyhighway.com>
Message-ID: <20020811220521.39A1327940@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/11/02 at 01:53 PM,  William Spencer <shadowjack@skyhighway.com>
said:

>Now, to really capture Starship Troopers in a movie, we should draw
>from the time it was written, which was...[pulls out the book, checks
>the publishing date]...1959.

>I was about to be silly and say, "John Wayne as Raczak! And Elvis
>Presley as 'little' Johhny Rico!"

>But then I stopped to think about it...

>John Ford.

>The year is 1960. John Ford directing.

>And yes, John Wayne as Raczak.

>Henry Fonda. (as DuBois?)

>James Stewart. (as Captain Frankel?)

>All of those guys.

>James Dean as Rico. I know, he died in 1955. I don't care.

So, go ahead with Presley as Johnny Rico. With proper direction
Presley could have pulled it off, and it might have launched him in a
direction where, in that universe, he'd have never made those awful
movies in the 60's. 

However, 1959/60 was so long ago that you may have fogotten some
people. Tony Curtis was young enough to play the role and hot in the
box office. Anthony Perkins wouldn't quite fit, I don't think, but he
was about to break out with "Pycho", so he would have been a
possibility. However, I think the perfect actor for the role, at that
time, would have been Jeffrey Hunter.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 16:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 15:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <02081114040900.00604@linux>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <02081114040900.00604@linux>
Message-ID: <20020812083508.B15923@freeman.little-possums.net>

richard honeycutt wrote:

[Tim wrote:]
> > No offense to inhabitants of the Phillipines, but I don't think
> > they prop up the rest of the world.

> 	That sounds like the tail wagging the dog.

Yes it does.  That's why I don't believe it would happen in Traveller,
either.  The Phillipines interact about as much with the economy of
the rest of the world as the Imperium interacts with the economy of
most high-pop rockballs.

If you don't think cutting trade with the Phillipines would crash the
economy of the rest of the world, why would you think that removing
the Imperium would crash the economy of a high-pop rockball?



> According to GDW, any world that was completely self-supporting was
> seen as being dangerously isolationist.

If that's in TNE, I'm not interested.


> The Imperium would no doubt put political pressure on the world to
> be better integrated into the imperial economy

If you actually look at the data, you would see that the Imperial
economy consists of a relatively small number of economic powerhouses
(the high-pop systems) with barely-visible threads of trade between
them.  The only "integrated" worlds are the low-pop ones.


> and the megacorps would put trade pressure on such a world

How do you put effective trade pressure on a world that is completely
self-supporting?


> Trade is an enormous carrot or damaging stick when dealing with
> another political entity.

How many times do I have to repeat this?  That is true only in
current-day Earth, where trade for most nations is between 25% and 80%
of their overall economy.

Trade value in Traveller is, literally, *hundreds* of times less.
That's not my opinion, it's in the published rules.

Trade to a high-pop Traveller world is a 3-gram carrot when you're not
really hungry, or a crumbling stick that is more likely to snap off in
your hand than hurt someone else.


> If it is broken then I feel all reasonable efforts should be made to fix it.

Gven my earlier research, 0.4 hectares per person would suffice at our
tech level (TL8).

Probably halve that at TL9 as tailored organisms produce most of the
raw foodstuffs for meat animal production (which takes most of the
space at the moment).  Halving again at TL10 with more efficiency
still.

Drop that by a factor of about 10 at any tech level where land is
substantially more expensive to develop than the benefit you get from
free light energy.


> I forgot the equation for surface area of a sphere so I guesstimated
> it to be about 60% of the area of a cube of equal size, probably
> wrong.

Actually about right.  Did you remember to square the radius?


> My point was to show lack of space for the population, agriculture,
> manufacturing, resources, energy production, etc.

My point was that there is no lack of space.  Planets are *big*.


>  I followed the rules without comparing them as yet to the RW.

How much area do the rules say it takes?


> I still want to know why anyone would advocate the population of the
> earth being shoehorned on a rock half the size of the moon. The old
> excuses wear thin after a few times.

"Shoehorned" is hardly the word.  The average population density would
be less than many *rural* areas on Earth.  Most likely, it started off
smaller and grew.


> Why was trade halted anyway?

I don't care.  I'm interested in the effects, not in the causes.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 16:38:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 15:38:25 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <2gedluka0l386dc7fqq7dug98nmh03gm7p@4ax.com>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt> <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net> <02081114275201.00604@linux> <2gedluka0l386dc7fqq7dug98nmh03gm7p@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020812083720.C15923@freeman.little-possums.net>

JR Holmes wrote:
> You are contending that this economy is so fragile that a 3% drop in
> the world's economy (which is what interstellar trade represents),
> would be sufficient to collapse social fabric and bring about a
> general revolution?

Worse actually, it's typically only 0.3% -- ten times smaller.  Often
less still.

That's why I keep shaking my head in disbelief whenever someone brings
up the drastic effects of loss of trade.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 16:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Aug 11 15:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <20020812083508.B15923@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <02081114040900.00604@linux>
Message-ID: <3D5791CF.9450.889980@localhost>

On 12 Aug 2002 at 8:35, Timothy Little wrote:

> > Trade is an enormous carrot or damaging stick when dealing with
> > another political entity.
> 
> How many times do I have to repeat this?  That is true only in
> current-day Earth, where trade for most nations is between 25% and 80%
> of their overall economy.
> 
> Trade value in Traveller is, literally, *hundreds* of times less.
> That's not my opinion, it's in the published rules.

However it is also in published canon that trade warfare (the Traveller 
Adventure) is practised and effective. Also that commerce warfare is 
practised and is therefore presumeably worthwhile. and that one of the 
megacorps (Tukera Lines) is almost entirely interstellar trade based. 
For it to be a megacorp from this it must be able to generate about the 
same revenue from it as the other megacorps (which effectively own 
entire worlds, remember) do from other forms of activity, much of which 
is probably not trade-based.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 16:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 15:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Failed Worlds
In-Reply-To: <004001c24179$4a42b850$7400a8c0@matt>
References: <12e.15b8a75b.2a881d23@aol.com> <004001c24179$4a42b850$7400a8c0@matt>
Message-ID: <20020812085830.D15923@freeman.little-possums.net>

Matthew Bond wrote:
> These filters constantly need replacing, but the cost is only a few
> 10's of millions of Cr a year. Suddenly all external trade stops...

So you use a different catalyst, and/or develop local means of
production of filters.  Obviously they don't need replacing often
(it's only 0.01 Cr/person/year!), so you can probably continue pretty
much as normal for a few years.

I doubt that it would actually take more than a few weeks to come up
with an alternative.  Even if it costs a *thousand* times as much to
make filters locally as to import, there's still not much impact.
Mild inconvenience, at worst.

Unless you want to posit that this catalyst is for some reason the
only possible thing that will *ever* work, and that it is *impossible*
(not just uneconomical) to develop locally, then I disagree with your
conclusion.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 17:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 16:12:02 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in
 traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <20020812075652.A15923@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <02081114275201.00604@linux>
 <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
 <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt>
 <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <02081114275201.00604@linux>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811190529.0161b050@192.168.0.1>

At 07:56 AM 8/12/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>richard honeycutt wrote:
> >       My position is that rockballs have NO local resources except 
> rocks to
> > develope.
>It's a *system*, not just a planet.  There will almost always be the
>usual assortment of asteroids, gas giants, icy moons, comets, and of
>course tons of sunlight.  Land a few billion (or trillion) tons of
>volatiles when you're building the colony.
>What resources *can't* they develop?

Given a high enough tech level (say B or better), and unrestricted access 
to the rest of the system, using non-starships, they should be pretty much set.

Now if they are TL 6 or 7, and they need access to material (say water for 
example) in the asteroid belt two orbits out...doable, but much more a pain 
the ass unless they have access to higher tech level equipment.

Hmmm....I'll have to start looking, just how many medium to high pop 
rockballs with a TL 9 or under are there?


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 17:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 16:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020811155443.00aa06c0@minn.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811162447.01739e78@192.168.0.1>
 <200208111949.MOH00506@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811192519.0162deb8@192.168.0.1>

At 03:54 PM 8/11/2002 -0500, Leslie Bates wrote:
>At 04:33 PM 8/11/2002 -0400, Mark Urbin wrote:
> >Yes.  Afleck is just a bit too 'pretty' for Trask. Perhaps as Prince 
> Bentrik.
>Kenneth Branaugh (sp?) as Prince Bentrik.

Perhaps...

> >Now...who to play Otto Harkaman?
>Twenty years ago I would have gone with Clint Eastwood as Harkaman. Need
>someone really tall.

Hmmm...Mel Gibson...nah too short and would have been better 5 or 10 years 
ago...
Russell Crow?  I don't think he's tall enough either...
Howie Long?  He's big enough or Dolph Lundgren would do two.  Have to 
darken the hair and add the beard.

Now for Lady Valerie Alvarath .
"She was beautiful-black hair, and almost startling blue eyes, a 
combination unusual in the Sword-Worlds."

Jennifer Connelly gets my vote.  Blue contacts and she's ready to go.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Sucessful Termanation of OPFOR Capabilities, re: Life Sustaining
Operations; Originating from a Departure Line Orientated to the Vertical
of the Main Battle Area."  --  http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 17:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 16:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] arrrrghhh....
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811192519.0162deb8@192.168.0.1>
References: <3.0.6.32.20020811155443.00aa06c0@minn.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020811162447.01739e78@192.168.0.1>
 <200208111949.MOH00506@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811194438.0163fce0@192.168.0.1>

At 07:32 PM 8/11/2002 -0400, Mark Urbin wrote:
>Howie Long?  He's big enough or Dolph Lundgren would do two.  Have to 
>darken the hair and add the beard.

Dolph Lundgren would do too, as in as well.  I'm sure he's done two 
before.  He's a movie star. :-)


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Discord, the Goddess of the Net, was developing a taste for blood sacrifice.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 18:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug 11 17:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] UN PKF Patrol Ship
Message-ID: <3D570097.F564D398@mail.cswnet.com>

Niles Anderson was having a bad day. The asteroid that he had been
surveying turned out to be nothing more than silicate rock. When he
lifted of from the rock, the number two fuel line ruptured and dumped
have of his ships gas out into space. Over the comm he recieved the news
that the bank would forclose on his ships loan if they didnt recieve
payment by next week.

Niles took it all in stride. Pulling out an emergency medical kit, he
shuffled around the contents until he found the vicoden bottle he had
picked up from a hack doctor on Juno. He popped two pills and looked at
the navigational display. A nickle iron asteriod was within range, but
the display showed a thin red line between the ship and the rock, with a
message that flashed:

NAVAL ORE MINING RESERVE #4 PROSPECTING FORBIDEN

Niles looked at the flashing light and contemplated his situation. That
asteroid probably had enough of a deposit on it to pay off the bank, and
what the military doesn't know won't hurt them, he thought.
Hitting the throttle, he accelerated his ship passed the perimeter on a
direct course to asteroid. 

Just as the ship reached the asteroid, another blip appeared on the
display. About the same time, a voice came over the radio comm.

"This is the United Nations Peace Keeping Force. Surrender your vessel
and prepare to be boarded."

Niles was having a bad day.


Ship: UN PKF Patrol Ship
Class: UN PKF Patrol Ship
Type: Patrol Ship
Architect: Dan Roseberry
Tech Level: 8

USP
         PB-0101112-000000-00002-0 MCr 31.675 95 Tons
Bat Bear                       1    Crew: 18
Bat                            1    TL: 8
Cargo: 22.400 Fuel: 1.900 EP: 0.950 Agility: 1 Marines: 15
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops

Architects Fee: MCr 0.317   Cost in Quantity: MCr 25.340


Detailed Description

HULL
95.000 tons standard, 1,330.000 cubic meters, Needle/Wedge Configuration

CREW
Pilot, 15 Marines, 2 Other Crew

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 1G Manuever, Power plant-1, 0.950 EP, Agility 1

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/1 Computer

HARDPOINTS
1 Hardpoint

ARMAMENT
1 Triple Missile Turret organised into 1 Battery (Factor-2)

DEFENCES
None

CRAFT
None

FUEL
1.900 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 56 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
18.0 Small Craft Staterooms, 18 Acceleration Couches, 22.400 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 31.992 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 0.317), MCr 25.340 in
Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
37 Weeks Singly, 29 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
An attempt using HGS to design the UN PKF Patrol Ship from GDW's
Belter. The original ship had a .5g drive; the HGS version can be viewed
as a new improved version. 

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 18:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug 11 17:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Great book
Message-ID: <200208120040.MOR00372@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Just reading the new Project Orion book.

Apparently, the idea was Ulam's.  And he didn't propose it 
for a manned vehicle - it was for a weapon system that could 
accelerate at 10,000g.

Are there any systems (FFS or GURPS) that end up with a 
10,000g missile?
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 18:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug 11 17:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: UN PKF Patrol Ship
Message-ID: <3D570384.D408C23@mail.cswnet.com>

Niles day was so bad that he couldn't even spell HALF right:

>When he lifted of from the rock, the number two fuel line ruptured >and dumped >>>have<<< of his ships gas out into space.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 18:56:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Angus McDonald)
Date: Sun Aug 11 17:56:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
Message-ID: <OF9A9D1E69.C3593D67-ONCA256C12.00808BF3@dnsalias.com>

Forgive a newbie, but wouldn't your point be that cutting trade off with 
the rest of the world would not crash the Phillippines economy?

If that is your point then it is debatable, I'd hate to see what the 
Phillippines would look like without international trade. You'd lose a lot 
of high-value adding services and products (no overseas engineers, 
architects, teachers, economists). Heck, in Traveller you'd probably also 
be restricting their information access (no XBoats), which limits their 
ability to develop and grow. Pretty soon you'd probably be looking at a 
society dropping in TL.

Imagine if their one import was something that everyone depended on, like 
a vitamin, or special plant fertiliser, or air ... not every system is 
going to have a nice wide range of elements, and maybe the cost to get it 
out of the ground/atmosphere will be greater than it costs to import it 
... 
---  from  ---
Angus McDonald
www.falkayn.com




Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
Sent by: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
12/08/2002 08:35 AM
Please respond to tml

 
        To:     tml@travellercentral.com
        cc:     (bcc: Angus McDonald/Dancrai)
        Subject:        Re: [TML] Rockballs and Economy


richard honeycutt wrote:

[Tim wrote:]
> > No offense to inhabitants of the Phillipines, but I don't think
> > they prop up the rest of the world.

>                That sounds like the tail wagging the dog.

Yes it does.  That's why I don't believe it would happen in Traveller,
either.  The Phillipines interact about as much with the economy of
the rest of the world as the Imperium interacts with the economy of
most high-pop rockballs.

If you don't think cutting trade with the Phillipines would crash the
economy of the rest of the world, why would you think that removing
the Imperium would crash the economy of a high-pop rockball?



> According to GDW, any world that was completely self-supporting was
> seen as being dangerously isolationist.

If that's in TNE, I'm not interested.


> The Imperium would no doubt put political pressure on the world to
> be better integrated into the imperial economy

If you actually look at the data, you would see that the Imperial
economy consists of a relatively small number of economic powerhouses
(the high-pop systems) with barely-visible threads of trade between
them.  The only "integrated" worlds are the low-pop ones.


> and the megacorps would put trade pressure on such a world

How do you put effective trade pressure on a world that is completely
self-supporting?


> Trade is an enormous carrot or damaging stick when dealing with
> another political entity.

How many times do I have to repeat this?  That is true only in
current-day Earth, where trade for most nations is between 25% and 80%
of their overall economy.

Trade value in Traveller is, literally, *hundreds* of times less.
That's not my opinion, it's in the published rules.

Trade to a high-pop Traveller world is a 3-gram carrot when you're not
really hungry, or a crumbling stick that is more likely to snap off in
your hand than hurt someone else.


> If it is broken then I feel all reasonable efforts should be made to fix 
it.

Gven my earlier research, 0.4 hectares per person would suffice at our
tech level (TL8).

Probably halve that at TL9 as tailored organisms produce most of the
raw foodstuffs for meat animal production (which takes most of the
space at the moment).  Halving again at TL10 with more efficiency
still.

Drop that by a factor of about 10 at any tech level where land is
substantially more expensive to develop than the benefit you get from
free light energy.


> I forgot the equation for surface area of a sphere so I guesstimated
> it to be about 60% of the area of a cube of equal size, probably
> wrong.

Actually about right.  Did you remember to square the radius?


> My point was to show lack of space for the population, agriculture,
> manufacturing, resources, energy production, etc.

My point was that there is no lack of space.  Planets are *big*.


>  I followed the rules without comparing them as yet to the RW.

How much area do the rules say it takes?


> I still want to know why anyone would advocate the population of the
> earth being shoehorned on a rock half the size of the moon. The old
> excuses wear thin after a few times.

"Shoehorned" is hardly the word.  The average population density would
be less than many *rural* areas on Earth.  Most likely, it started off
smaller and grew.


> Why was trade halted anyway?

I don't care.  I'm interested in the effects, not in the causes.


- Tim
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml





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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 18:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Aug 11 17:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
In-Reply-To: <20020811220521.39A1327940@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B97C5630.694FF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/11/02 3:05 PM, Eris Reddoch at erisred@telocity.com wrote:

>> James Dean as Rico. I know, he died in 1955. I don't care.
>=20
> So, go ahead with Presley as Johnny Rico. With proper direction
> Presley could have pulled it off, and it might have launched him in a
> direction where, in that universe, he'd have never made those awful
> movies in the 60's.

What about Sal Mineo for Johnny Rico?

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 19:04:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 18:04:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <3D5791CF.9450.889980@localhost>
References: <02081114040900.00604@linux> <20020812083508.B15923@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D5791CF.9450.889980@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020812110205.A16290@freeman.little-possums.net>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> However it is also in published canon that trade warfare (the
> Traveller Adventure) is practised and effective.

Oh, it would be highly effective against mid- to low- pop worlds that
aren't high tech.  It just wouldn't be effective against the high-pop
worlds with at least middling tech that we're talking about.

Trade warfare is something that high-pop moderate-to-high tech worlds
can apply against lesser worlds, but is not effective against worlds
of a similar stature.


[Tukera]
> For it to be a megacorp from this it must be able to generate about the 
> same revenue from it as the other megacorps (which effectively own 
> entire worlds, remember) do from other forms of activity, much of which 
> is probably not trade-based.

How many megacorps own entire *high-pop* worlds outright?

I would imagine that any company that outright owns fifty worlds of a
few tens of millions people each would qualify as a mega-corp, with
annual turnover of ten trillion credits or so.  Tukera could match
that if it had a significant percentage of the interstellar shipping
business (which it apparently does).

There can be a huge amount of trade without it being a significant
portion of the economy of each high-pop world.  And there is.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 19:08:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Aug 11 18:08:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
In-Reply-To: <B97C5630.694FF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020812010625.E62B32793F@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/11/02 at 05:58 PM,  Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
said:

>on 8/11/02 3:05 PM, Eris Reddoch at erisred@telocity.com wrote:

>>> James Dean as Rico. I know, he died in 1955. I don't care.
>> 
>> So, go ahead with Presley as Johnny Rico. With proper direction
>> Presley could have pulled it off, and it might have launched him in a
>> direction where, in that universe, he'd have never made those awful
>> movies in the 60's.

>What about Sal Mineo for Johnny Rico?

Not a bad choice. <g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 19:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 18:15:03 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811190529.0161b050@192.168.0.1>
References: <02081114275201.00604@linux> <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt> <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net> <02081114275201.00604@linux> <20020812075652.A15923@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020811190529.0161b050@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020812111400.B16290@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> Hmmm....I'll have to start looking, just how many medium to high pop
> rockballs with a TL 9 or under are there?

I get about 60-70 from a quick database search, counting "medium to
high pop" as population code 6 or higher.  Most of them actually have
pop 6.

Quite a bit less if you restrict the search to systems in the Imperium.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 19:17:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Mellman)
Date: Sun Aug 11 18:17:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Land grab webring
In-Reply-To: <20020811184038.2233.10156.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> from "tml-request@travellercentral.com" at Aug 11, 2002 11:40:38 AM
Message-ID: <200208120114.VAA04947@shell.cinternet.net>

Hey Mark,

I'll throw Belizo into a land grab webring if one forms.  Just tell me
when and how.

 ...........................................................................
  Bill Mellman
  mailto:tml@idbin.com
  http://www.mellman.net/bill/
  http://www.geocities.com/mellmanw/Traveller
 ...........................................................................



 .   Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 11:32:12 -0400
 .   To: tml@travellercentral.com
 .   From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net>
 .   Subject: Re: [TML] Land grab webring
 .   Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
 .   
 .   At 11:30 PM 8/10/2002 -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
 .   >At 10:31 PM 8/10/02 -0400, you wrote:
 .   >>Any interest in a webring of landgrab sites?
 .   >
 .   >Yes!  It would encourage me to get a few planets put together and on the web.
 .   
 .   Ok, that's two yes votes (besides me).  I'm willing to set it up and 
 .   administer it.
 .   It might be nice to have the home page as the downport landgrab page.
 .   
 .   I would host it at ringsurf.com, which is run by our friends at Quiklinks, 
 .   who also make GRIP Traveller and T20.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 19:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug 11 18:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
Message-ID: <59.1fb611e5.2a8868d3@aol.com>

 >> My point was to show lack of space for the population, agriculture,
 >> manufacturing, resources, energy production, etc.
 >
 My point was that there is no lack of space.  Planets are *big*.

A planet 1000 miles in diameter with a population of 1 billion will have 2 
surface acres per person.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 19:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 18:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <OF9A9D1E69.C3593D67-ONCA256C12.00808BF3@dnsalias.com>
References: <OF9A9D1E69.C3593D67-ONCA256C12.00808BF3@dnsalias.com>
Message-ID: <20020812114000.C16290@freeman.little-possums.net>

Angus McDonald wrote:
> Forgive a newbie, but wouldn't your point be that cutting trade off with 
> the rest of the world would not crash the Phillippines economy?

Welcome to the list :)

No, that's not my point at all.  Trade with the Phillipines is about
the same proportion of the world economy as Imperial trade is to a
high-pop world's economy.  If it makes it easier for you, you could
think of the Phillipines as being the starport.

The trade value for high-pop worlds in Traveller is so low that there
are no Earthly examples of a nation that is so isolated.


>  I'd hate to see what the Phillippines would look like without
> international trade.

Yes, the economy around the starport would probably crash.  That
wouldn't devastate the rest of the world though.


> maybe the cost to get it out of the ground/atmosphere will be
> greater than it costs to import it

Yes, that's an argument for a cut in the 0.3% trade leading to maybe a
3% drop in the system's economy.  Not a 90% drop though, nor a
sure-fire recipe for massive layoffs, rioting and revolution.

In fact, in your scenario it might lead to a brief surge in the local
economy.  What used to be unloaded by a few starport workers now needs
more labour to develop.  Less efficient compared to importing it, yes
-- but if you say it's vital, it will be done.  The research and
development required could actually have a net beneficial effect in
other areas as well.

I'm not saying it *will* be beneficial, but it's certainly far from
clear that it will be highly detrimental even if the resource they
import is vital.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 19:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 18:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <59.1fb611e5.2a8868d3@aol.com>
References: <59.1fb611e5.2a8868d3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020812114228.D16290@freeman.little-possums.net>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> A planet 1000 miles in diameter with a population of 1 billion will
> have 2 surface acres per person.

Yes, a population density lower than many rural areas of Earth.

It certainly won't be a big planet-spanning city as seemed to be
implied.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 19:49:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 18:49:04 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in
 traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <20020812111400.B16290@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811190529.0161b050@192.168.0.1>
 <02081114275201.00604@linux>
 <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
 <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt>
 <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <02081114275201.00604@linux>
 <20020812075652.A15923@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020811190529.0161b050@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811214634.026feff0@192.168.0.1>

At 11:14 AM 8/12/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
> > Hmmm....I'll have to start looking, just how many medium to high pop
> > rockballs with a TL 9 or under are there?
>I get about 60-70 from a quick database search, counting "medium to
>high pop" as population code 6 or higher.  Most of them actually have
>pop 6.
>Quite a bit less if you restrict the search to systems in the Imperium.

Interesting...Thanks.  I'll have to find one, preferably in the Imperium 
and Land Grab it.
Preferably TL 7 or lower.  That would make things interesting...


-------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
In the US, obesity is a more serious health problem
among the poor than starvation. That's something that
would have been science fiction to anybody who grew up
before, say, 1900, or even 1950
-------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 19:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 18:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Land grab webring
In-Reply-To: <20020811211638.72037.qmail@web13401.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811112842.01a82eb0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811215525.029cdbb8@192.168.0.1>

At 02:16 PM 8/11/2002 -0700, Bernie McGeehan wrote:
>Feel free to use the Rockhead graphics, etc, if you
>like. I've run out of time to do it right.

Are you the owner?
If so, would you mind transferring the ring to me?>



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.new/EWW/
"Treeware" - Manuals and documentation.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 20:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 19:04:02 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811214634.026feff0@192.168.0.1>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811190529.0161b050@192.168.0.1> <02081114275201.00604@linux> <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt> <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net> <02081114275201.00604@linux> <20020812075652.A15923@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020811190529.0161b050@192.168.0.1> <20020812111400.B16290@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020811214634.026feff0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020812120335.E16290@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> Interesting...Thanks.  I'll have to find one, preferably in the
> Imperium and Land Grab it.  Preferably TL 7 or lower.  That would
> make things interesting...

How about Cold Rock, TL 5?  Old Expanses/Vendtup 2829, UWP=E4006A7-5

The Old Expanses are quite a distance from most campaigns though.
I have no data on it beyond what's in the database, unfortunately.
7 million people, no belt, 5 gas giants.  Probably not too warm :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 20:14:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Aug 11 19:14:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Failed Worlds
In-Reply-To: <004001c24179$4a42b850$7400a8c0@matt>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNOEAHEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>  >They say clearly that there is a lot of trade.  A lot of
>>  >trade makes sense.
>>
>> Depends on what you mean by "a lot".  Consider trade amounting to 0.4% (a
>> number cited earlier) of a 10 billion population world's productivity.
>Seen
>> from the perspective of an individual trader with a 400 ton merchant ship
>> then that's an awful lot of goods being flown around, but as a percentage
>of
>> that world's economy it's not world-breaking.
>>
>> The planet generation system is simply random.  It generates arbitrary
>> results and leaves it to the referee to rationalize why things turned out
>the
>> way they did.  This may lead to interesting game plots, but it cannot
bear
>> the level of scrutiny and examination that is being given it.
>
>The problem is that the trade rules are broken.
>
>No-one seems to be taking into account intra-system trade stopping. If you
>rely on resources from asteroid or comet mining, or you are scattered
>throught a system in thousands of smaller outposts rather than all clumped
>on one rockball,  and spacecraft trade in-system stops as well as
out-system
>then you are screwed.
>
>Also, monetary value alone doesn't fully represent the reliance a place may
>have for a low cost but essential resource not available locally. Say the
>atmophere filters on a planet with a badly tainted, but otherwise
>breathable, atmoshere require a relatively cheap catalyst that is not
>available locally. These filters constantly need replacing, but the cost is
>only a few 10's of millions of Cr a year. Suddenly all external trade
>stops... as a percentage of your GWP it is a drop in the ocean, but in
terms
>of the planets viability it is tremendous.
>

Of course this brings up the fact that the system rules are also broken.
Under First In for example, worlds in a system other than the main world can
have a sizable population. As a matter of fact each world in the system can
have a population almost as great as the main world. As a matte fact FI
states that if two worlds in a system have the same population then the main
world is the one in the star's life zone.

What this does is dilute the GNP of each and every system, making the BTN as
calculated using the Trade rules in Far Trader an even smaller. Fewer dtons
of cargo and fewer passengers as a percent of a ***system's*** economy.

There is a fix that would allow the number as published to be used. That is
to count both the population and trade numbers as representative of the
system instead of the main world. Trade classification modifiers, which are
related directly to the main world, should not be a problem, because the
main world will generally be the best world in the system for habitation. No
other world in the system should be in a position to get better modifiers
than the main world.

This has other aspects as well, which could be useful. Balkanized
**systems**, as opposed to worlds, would be possible, opening up tickets for
those spacer merc units described in SM. If the whole system is occupied (as
is likely for a space faring civilization) then the Highport could be in the
out skirts of the system, to better reduce jump masking and minimize the
time ships spend enroute to the starport. Also it reduces the load on some
of those really high population worlds. The population could be spread out
over a number of planets in the system, reducing the load on the individual
world to something more reasonable.

Thoughts?

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 20:15:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Aug 11 19:15:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <20020812114228.D16290@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEAIEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

So perhaps the problem is that the GT trade rules, in particular, work
better for places like the Spinward Marches when you're talking about trade
done by Free Traders, than they do for High Pop worlds in the interior
joined together by megamerchants.

So what's the cutoff here? How much trade is necessary to make the back
story of collapsing economies, riots and loss of tech level when trade is
interrupted plausible?


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 20:19:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 19:19:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Great book
In-Reply-To: <200208120040.MOR00372@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208120040.MOR00372@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020812121739.F16290@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> Are there any systems (FFS or GURPS) that end up with a 10,000g
> missile?

Technically GURPS solid rockets have no upper limit on their peak
acceleration -- but their burn duration will be very short.

It really wimps out on Orion drive acceleration though, since the
system described is probably based on the assumption of a manned
vehicle.

10000 gee acceleration is a *lot*.  What sort of materials can take
that much stress in a macroscopic object?  Even a block of solid steel
is likely to rupture.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 20:21:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Aug 11 19:21:10 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in  traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811214634.026feff0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNIEAJEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

Of course part of this goes back to what does TL mean. Any world which is a
member of the Imperium, and does not have its educational system purposely
dumbed down (by, let us say, a religious theocracy, for example) should be
teaching (G)TL12 science and technology in their educational system. This
makes it much more unlikely that TL will drop as the result of isolation.

As an aside, I noticed that in the early JTAS almost every low TL world
described as part of an adventure is explained as being a newly rediscovered
remnant of the Long Night. It would seem that the coexistence of low tech
and high tech worlds with trade for half a dozen centuries was not an
original fixture of the OTU.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 20:26:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 19:26:25 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in
 traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <20020812120335.E16290@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811214634.026feff0@192.168.0.1>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020811190529.0161b050@192.168.0.1>
 <02081114275201.00604@linux>
 <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
 <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt>
 <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <02081114275201.00604@linux>
 <20020812075652.A15923@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020811190529.0161b050@192.168.0.1>
 <20020812111400.B16290@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020811214634.026feff0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811221941.0296bbc8@192.168.0.1>

At 12:03 PM 8/12/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
> > Interesting...Thanks.  I'll have to find one, preferably in the
> > Imperium and Land Grab it.  Preferably TL 7 or lower.  That would
> > make things interesting...
>
>How about Cold Rock, TL 5?  Old Expanses/Vendtup 2829, UWP=E4006A7-5
>
>The Old Expanses are quite a distance from most campaigns though.
>I have no data on it beyond what's in the database, unfortunately.
>7 million people, no belt, 5 gas giants.  Probably not too warm :)

Cool. :-)

I'll run it through Heaven & Earth and start figuring it out...
Hmmm...Gas Giant moons would take the place of the asteroid belt for a 
source of mining & water...

Let's dig out my copy of the Traveller Book...TL 5
c. 1900-1939   Early computers...visions of TL 9 and A percomps being used 
to run life support systems...
Keeping old surplus small craft running using local parts...Vac suits that 
look like diving suits...



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
And, isn't sanity really just a one trick pony anyway? I mean, all you get
is one trick: rational thinking. But when you're good and crazy, ooo hoo
hoo, the sky's the limit! - The Tick  http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 20:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Aug 11 19:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <20020812110205.A16290@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <02081114040900.00604@linux> <20020812083508.B15923@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D5791CF.9450.889980@localhost> <20020812110205.A16290@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <1029120923.3d57239b4a4dd@www.paradise.net.nz>

Quoting Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>:

> [Tukera]
> > For it to be a megacorp from this it must be able to generate about
> the 
> > same revenue from it as the other megacorps (which effectively own 
> > entire worlds, remember) do from other forms of activity, much of
> which 
> > is probably not trade-based.
> 
> How many megacorps own entire *high-pop* worlds outright?
> 
> I would imagine that any company that outright owns fifty worlds of a
> few tens of millions people each would qualify as a mega-corp, with
> annual turnover of ten trillion credits or so. Tukera could match
> that if it had a significant percentage of the interstellar shipping
> business (which it apparently does).
> 
> There can be a huge amount of trade without it being a significant
> portion of the economy of each high-pop world. And there is.

If that were the case the _real_ megacorps would be the companies that settled 
for being highly active in the internal economies of a few hi-pop worlds, and 
treated the trade between them as incidental. If interstellar trade is only 
0.3% of a world's total economy even a company like Tukera wouldn't compare to 
a large corporation on a hi-pop world that had subsidiaries and branches 
throughout a populous sub-sector.

I suggest that the easier answer is that Far Trader is simply wrong. Older 
canon in Hard Times, The Traveller Adventure, and other sources dealing with 
Trav history (including some you're not interested in - TNE, etc.) say that 
trade is very important to worlds. The whole premise for the 3I is that its 
guarantee of good interstellar trade conditions was very attractive to most 
worlds. If trade is so unimportant to the major worlds of the 3I why did so 
mnay join willingly?

-- 
Rupert Boleyn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 21:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Angus McDonald)
Date: Sun Aug 11 20:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
Message-ID: <OFED183D4C.6BA32B37-ONCA256C13.000A8F10@dnsalias.com>

>>>
No, that's not my point at all.  Trade with the Phillipines is about
the same proportion of the world economy as Imperial trade is to a
high-pop world's economy.  If it makes it easier for you, you could
think of the Phillipines as being the starport.
<<<
Aah ... I see (said the blind man). It would still be better to look at 
somewhere that is more vital to the world economy, a source of high 
technology, perhaps Japan? Interstellar trade, if it exists at all, will 
either be high-value good for high-value good, or low-value bulk goods for 
high-value goods. I can imagine a planet sending it's mineral resources 
offworld (especially if radioactives) in return for a small amount of 
high-value offworld goods. The effect of cutting that off? You'd probably 
bankrupt the mining companies, inconvenience people relying on the 
offworld products and perhaps cause a lot of civil unrest (why'd I lose my 
lucrative mining job?).

>>>
The trade value for high-pop worlds in Traveller is so low that there
are no Earthly examples of a nation that is so isolated.

>  I'd hate to see what the Phillippines would look like without
> international trade.

Yes, the economy around the starport would probably crash.  That
wouldn't devastate the rest of the world though.

> maybe the cost to get it out of the ground/atmosphere will be
> greater than it costs to import it

Yes, that's an argument for a cut in the 0.3% trade leading to maybe a
3% drop in the system's economy.  Not a 90% drop though, nor a
sure-fire recipe for massive layoffs, rioting and revolution.
<<<
A lot of this depends upon the Traveller trade rules, and whether your 
hi-pop world relies on imported Imperium high tech devices much. I'm sure 
the President won't mind having to give up his gravcar limo, but if the 
world's main agriculture source requires high-tech to do its work, then 
things could get nasty. It could be nastier if the people that own 
everything are offworlders, you might get a situation where eveyone loses 
confidence in the economy, because the major financial backers from 
offworld have pulled out, taking their plant & equipment with them.

>>>
In fact, in your scenario it might lead to a brief surge in the local
economy.  What used to be unloaded by a few starport workers now needs
more labour to develop.  Less efficient compared to importing it, yes
-- but if you say it's vital, it will be done.  The research and
development required could actually have a net beneficial effect in
other areas as well.

I'm not saying it *will* be beneficial, but it's certainly far from
clear that it will be highly detrimental even if the resource they
import is vital.
<<<

I guess the argument is that a hi-pop world must be pretty much 
self-sufficient in order to survive at all, given that interstellar trade 
is so small. To be hi-pop at all the world must be providing most of their 
own food/water, and _probably_ has a diverse industrial base. The most 
likely change is political (is this where this thread started?) as the 
government steps in to nationalise the offworlder capital base and 
guarantee jobs/survival. You almost certainly would have riots as people 
were fired and lost their jobs, slacking off once the government stepped 
in to put them back at work.

I think IMTU interstellar trade will be more important for most hi-pop, 
hi-tech worlds and very unimportant for hi-pop, lo-tech worlds (especially 
if they have hi-agri). Lo-pop worlds will vary wildly.

---  from  ---
Angus McDonald
www.falkayn.com

--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/html
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 21:11:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Aug 11 20:11:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Great book
In-Reply-To: <20020812121739.F16290@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <B97C7539.69535%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/11/02 7:17 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:

>=20
> 10000 gee acceleration is a *lot*.  What sort of materials can take
> that much stress in a macroscopic object?  Even a block of solid steel
> is likely to rupture.
>=20
Not likely, since Leupold and Stevens, a scope manufacturer proofs their
pistol scope designs at 10,000 G.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 21:13:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Aug 11 20:13:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Great book
In-Reply-To: <20020812121739.F16290@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <200208120040.MOR00372@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <20020812121739.F16290@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <1029121840.3d5727301b171@www.paradise.net.nz>

Quoting Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>:

> John T. Kwon wrote:
> > Are there any systems (FFS or GURPS) that end up with a 10,000g
> > missile?
> 
> Technically GURPS solid rockets have no upper limit on their peak
> acceleration -- but their burn duration will be very short.
> 
> It really wimps out on Orion drive acceleration though, since the
> system described is probably based on the assumption of a manned
> vehicle.
> 
> 10000 gee acceleration is a *lot*. What sort of materials can take
> that much stress in a macroscopic object? Even a block of solid steel
> is likely to rupture.

I get 70000 odd G as the acceleration of an M16 bullet, so it's doable. Whether 
it's doable outsode a gun barrel or with so,ething that's not a solid block is 
another matter.

-- 
Rupert Boleyn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 21:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 20:18:02 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in
 traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNIEAJEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811214634.026feff0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811231114.029cc008@192.168.0.1>

At 10:14 PM 8/11/2002 -0400, Terry Carlino wrote:
>Of course part of this goes back to what does TL mean. Any world which is a
>member of the Imperium, and does not have its educational system purposely
>dumbed down (by, let us say, a religious theocracy, for example) should be
>teaching (G)TL12 science and technology in their educational system. This
>makes it much more unlikely that TL will drop as the result of isolation.

TL is what the planet can sustain.  There are can, and probably are, Grav 
Based transports, but those are imports, as are the parts to maintain them.
It could be a planet with great religious freedom, but an oppressive 
government.
Transport on planet is under strict government control.  The government 
uses air/rafts and grav limos.
Workers take buses to their factories.  They have to get permit to access a 
train in order to travel to another city.
Maybe they don't need a permit, but the government finds it easier to keep 
track of citizens and their movements if they are limited to lower tech 
transport methods.

They could be using TL C farming equipment.  Expensive imports.  So they 
rely on locally produced TL 7 equipment for other aspects of life.

>As an aside, I noticed that in the early JTAS almost every low TL world
>described as part of an adventure is explained as being a newly rediscovered
>remnant of the Long Night. It would seem that the coexistence of low tech
>and high tech worlds with trade for half a dozen centuries was not an
>original fixture of the OTU.

Depends on where you are.  In the Core or out in one of the "Frontier" sectors.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 21:22:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ken Murphy)
Date: Sun Aug 11 20:22:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style
Message-ID: <F121PeKljq65Rn8P5o70000d29f@hotmail.com>

   Hi gang,
   Over the last little while I had been going over alternate ship combat 
rules for Traveller; cadging bits from here and there in an effort to cobble 
together something a little different from the usual HG or MT ship combat.
   Well, having recently made the jump to our new computer, I discovered a 
file I'd had previously somehow *didn't* make it; having gone the way of the 
Dodo during the transfer of files.
   In any case, it was information from an old Dragon magazine on different 
types of ship's weapons for Traveller.
   I believe the article featured roundshot projectors,infinite repeater 
rail/coillguns,and other bits, in addition to *Disintigrator* weapons. IIRC, 
these things as designed would *disolve* a different volume of displacement 
tons per unit; the amount varying with TL.
   I think there also might've been  Anti-Disintegrator technology of some 
sort; a spionge or filter or something which had X charges it could absorb.
   Does anyone know what I'm talking about and have access to this article, 
and if so, could I get a copy?
   Thanks in advance for any help :)
  -Ken Murphy-

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 21:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug 11 20:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
Message-ID: <3D572D20.9506FD49@mail.cswnet.com>

Nothing to add really, just keep this thread going;
I know its going to give me some detail for my landgrab ;)

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 22:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 21:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Broken Links: Anyone know where they really are now?
Message-ID: <pp6eluc7hj57m61c5ff320m97pc6ntf431@4ax.com>

I just did a maintenance run on Freelance Traveller, and came up with a
bunch of broken links.  Can anyone tell me where these links _should_ be
pointing to at this point in time?

Broken Links:

><http://enterprise.hb.se/~goeran/traveller/> - Gran Damberg's Traveller, the Web Pages.

><http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/Traveller/Rivals of the Third Imperium.htm> - Stuart Ferris's Rivals of the Third Imperium Webring homepage.

><http://home.earthlink.net/~jamstar/traveller/boats.html> - Deckplans mailing list

><http://home.sn.no/~starwolf/HIWG> - HIWG Homepage

><http://merc.travellercentral.com/> - Tod Glenn's La Mercenaire

><http://ouray.cudenver.edu/~lwlguatn/trv.html> - Leroy's (Guatney) Traveller Campaign

><http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/AndySlack/traveler.htm> - Andy Slack's Halfway Station Traveller Page

><http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller> - Michel Vaillancourt's Near Earth Campaign

><http://www.bifrost.demon.co.uk/Gaming/Utils/PlanetStats.html> - Samuel Penn's Planetary Statistics java app.

><http://www.bifrost.demon.co.uk/Gaming/Utils/PlanetStats.java> - Source for above

><http://www.bigbailey.com/vspace> - Mike Linsenmayer's Virtual Space

><http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/BITS_website/Software/QSDS_Demo.sit.hqx> - Rob Prior's QSDS demo HyperCard app

><http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/traveller/> - Peter Miller's Traveller

><http://www.ecafe.org/philadelphia/index.htm> - link to Philadelphia Experiment from Ken Pick's article on tweaking the jump drive

><http://www.et.byu.edu/~jongoff/RPG/Trav.html> - John Goff's TNE Section

><http://www.fas.org/dod-101/sys/ship/names.htm> - Link to detailed information on USN ship names from Ken Pick's article on naming ships.

><http://www.geocities.com/Area51/dimension/7081/4I.html> - Fourth Imperium Working Group webring page

><http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/5776/mtcgsrc.html> - Gregory Svenson's MegaTraveller Character Generator (source code)

><http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/trav2.htm> - Kevin Walsh's Free Trader Beowulf Traveller Web Page

><http://www.iinet.net.au/~mickb> - Michael Bailey's home page (link on his Author page at Freelance Traveller)

><http://www.leonidae.org/traveller/> - Andy Akins's Taneis Down Interstellar Starport

><http://www.metronet.com/~washi/Tas> - Rob and Suzanne Eaglestone's TAS

><http://www.novia.net/~odysseus/index.html> - The Crashland City Downport (owner's real name unknown)

><http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj/Traveller/index.html> Dave's (Golden) Traveller Site

><http://www.schirf.com/traveller> - Paul Schirf's Traveller Page

><http://www.teleport.com/~douglas> - Douglas Glatz home page (also links to pages below this location)

><http://www.travellerguns.com> - Tod Glenn's Mercenaries' Guide to Weapons

><http://www.warships1.com/UScvl22_Independence.htm> - link to page about the USS Independence from Ken Pick's article on the Essex.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 22:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Ayers)
Date: Sun Aug 11 21:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Broken Links: Anyone know where they really are now?
In-Reply-To: <pp6eluc7hj57m61c5ff320m97pc6ntf431@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <001101c241b8$1a172eb0$2f7de40c@loki>

<http://www.bigbailey.com/vspace> - Mike Linsenmayer's Virtual Space

is now the hypercube and a Traveller Ring member at:
<http://www.thehypercube.com/>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 22:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Aug 11 21:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Broken Links: Anyone know where they really are now?
In-Reply-To: <pp6eluc7hj57m61c5ff320m97pc6ntf431@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <B97C8BDB.6954C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/11/02 9:16 PM, Jeff Zeitlin at jzeitlin@cyburban.com wrote:

>=20
>> <http://merc.travellercentral.com/> - Tod Glenn's La Mercenaire

Folded into travellercentral
>=20
>> <http://www.travellerguns.com> - Tod Glenn's Mercenaries' Guide to Weapo=
ns

http://weapons.travellercentral.com

(Couldn't justify paying for another domain name)

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 22:49:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 21:49:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Great book
In-Reply-To: <B97C7539.69535%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020812121739.F16290@freeman.little-possums.net> <B97C7539.69535%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020812144751.H16290@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> Not likely, since Leupold and Stevens, a scope manufacturer proofs
> their pistol scope designs at 10,000 G.

That's impressive, but I was thinking about bigger things when I heard
"missile".  Smaller objects resist acceleration better (square-cube
law again).

A baseball pitcher could really throw it hard against a steel wall and
it would be undamaged, and it would survive a truck being driven over
it?


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 22:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 21:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [www] 11 Aug 2002 - Freelance Traveller Updated
Message-ID: <a9felukt8ja6gtusjbr5u2qqb0kvb1a6tl@4ax.com>

Freelance Traveller, the Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource has
posted its most recent update to http://www.freelancetraveller.com,
and http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller, and our mirror at
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller.

In this update:

 - Minor link fixups have been made throughout the site.  Because of an
   attack of real life, including much stress and a storm that knocked out
   our ability to update the site for a day, this is really a token update.
   The next update will be next week, and will be far more extensive -
   there will be lots of time available to do this next update.

Your questions, comments, and ideas are always welcome at Freelance
Traveller.  Please write to editor@freelancetraveller.com with any and all
of them, or use the feedback form at .../infocenter/feedbackform.html.
Freelance Traveller depends on the good will of Traveller fans both to
visit our site and justify our existence, and to write for us, making our
existence possible.



Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture 
Enterprises, 1977-2000.  Use of the trademark in 
this notice and in the referenced materials is not 
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.freelancetraveller.com
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
editor@freelancetraveller.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 23:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 22:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEAIEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <20020812114228.D16290@freeman.little-possums.net> <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEAIEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20020812150125.I16290@freeman.little-possums.net>

Terry Carlino wrote:
> So what's the cutoff here? How much trade is necessary to make the
> back story of collapsing economies, riots and loss of tech level
> when trade is interrupted plausible?

I would guess trade >= 20% of GWP would be badly affected in general.
Special cases with trade of less than 5% or so might be badly hurt.

Dropping a few tech levels is something I'd normally reserve for
worlds that have the majority of their economy devoted to trade.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 23:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 22:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <1029120923.3d57239b4a4dd@www.paradise.net.nz>
References: <02081114040900.00604@linux> <20020812083508.B15923@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D5791CF.9450.889980@localhost> <20020812110205.A16290@freeman.little-possums.net> <1029120923.3d57239b4a4dd@www.paradise.net.nz>
Message-ID: <20020812151548.J16290@freeman.little-possums.net>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> If that were the case the _real_ megacorps would be the companies
> that settled for being highly active in the internal economies of a
> few hi-pop worlds, and treated the trade between them as incidental.

If they can capture the majority of the economy of those worlds, yes.
Even so, 10% of the trade of ten thousand worlds is still bigger than
50% of any few of them.

Tukera is still a very major player either way.

Of course, I should point out that none of the biggest companies in
*our* world have gross revenues more than 1% of our GWP.


> I suggest that the easier answer is that Far Trader is simply wrong.

I've got no problem with that.  I've been saying so for ages.  I have
far more trade IMTU, I'm just discussing the OTU as depicted by the
published rules because to talk about MTU isn't very useful to others.

I'll also note that not many people agreed when I said that the G:FT
rules were wrong :P


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 23:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Hamill)
Date: Sun Aug 11 22:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure: Frontier Rescue
Message-ID: <20020812053010.6814.qmail@web21501.mail.yahoo.com>

 
 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 23:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 22:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <OFED183D4C.6BA32B37-ONCA256C13.000A8F10@dnsalias.com>
References: <OFED183D4C.6BA32B37-ONCA256C13.000A8F10@dnsalias.com>
Message-ID: <20020812154457.K16290@freeman.little-possums.net>

Angus McDonald wrote:
>  It would still be better to look at somewhere that is more vital to
> the world economy, a source of high technology, perhaps Japan?

For a high-trade Imperium or a low-tech/low-pop world, that would be a
better comparison.  Not for high-pop worlds in the GT Imperium,
though.


> A lot of this depends upon the Traveller trade rules, and whether
> your hi-pop world relies on imported Imperium high tech devices
> much.

The standard GT:Far Trader rules are pretty explicit.  They don't.
Whether the GT:FT rules are a good model is not a question I'm
addressing.


> I think IMTU interstellar trade will be more important for most
> hi-pop, hi-tech worlds and very unimportant for hi-pop, lo-tech
> worlds (especially if they have hi-agri). Lo-pop worlds will vary
> wildly.

IMTU it's the low-tech or low-pop worlds that depend on trade the
most.  High-tech worlds can adapt to produce just about anything.
Low-tech worlds are much less flexible, and low-pop worlds rely on
trade for infrastructure development and maintenance.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 01:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 00:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMEMFCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: William Spencer <shadowjack@skyhighway.com>
>
>Now, to really capture Starship Troopers in a movie, we should draw from
the
>time it was written, which was...[pulls out the book, checks the publishing
>date]...1959.

>THERE'S a proper book-to-movie adaptation.
>
>I wish I had it on DVD.

You know, given recent developments in video technology, in a few years, you
might be able to make that movie yourself.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 01:16:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 00:16:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arbellatra
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEMFCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
>
>IMO the IN of CT is actually quite open to various forms of cronyism,
>nepotism, etc. It and the Marines are the two services where a good Soc
>improves your chances and, unlike the Marines, in the Navy your Soc can
>improve during service (all according to Book 1).

Do real navies have the custom of "wetting down" a new stripe so that it
will stick?  I read a novel once in which a USN officer was promoted while
serving on a ship, and he had to throw a drinking party for all of the other
officers at a nice restaurant at their next port of call (which was in
Spain, as I recall).  He had to take an advance on his next few paychecks to
cover it.  In any event, this could be a fun piece to throw into a Traveller
game.  (And where do you think that Carousing skill comes from, anyway?)

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 01:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Mon Aug 12 00:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <200208111835.MOF00148@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020812074725.29858.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>

Very interesting. Is there a link to a site that
involves Phoenix Command Combat?
Maybe my games would include a bit more combat, if the
system was more interesting. Right now, my games don't
include a lot of combat. My current campaign has been
going on since December, we play about 3 hours every
Mon night and we've only had about 3 combat
situations, since we started. I'm actually a little
proud of that fact, but my players would like to see a
little more combat.
thanks for the info and charts. I may try it out.
Dan.

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 02:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Aug 12 01:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Dougs MOS and Language (was Audible Signature...)
In-Reply-To: <a28d9168.9168a28d@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020812013610.009f5ec0@mindspring.com>

At 10:34 PM 8/11/02 +0300, you wrote:

> > My MOS was 11-B.  John Groth  talks to 'em, I just put bullets in
> > their bodies.
>
>Assuming that they hold off on surrendering long enough for you to shoot
>at them.... ;-)
>
>To answer the question, my MOS is 97E4P00AE.  And yes, I too went
>through Fort We-Gotcha when the MOS code was 96C.... ;-)
>
>Now you see why I don't expect to retire when I'm eligible.... :-(

John, you have to read Tim Powers' _Declare_ first chance you get.  A large 
chunk is set in areas you frequent, and will have you hiding under your cot 
when the wind howls outside.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 03:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Mon Aug 12 02:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style
In-Reply-To: <F121PeKljq65Rn8P5o70000d29f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020812090622.62065.qmail@web11807.mail.yahoo.com>

>    Does anyone know what I'm talking about and have
> access to this article, 
> and if so, could I get a copy?
>    Thanks in advance for any help :)
>   -Ken Murphy-
> 
I have a few really old Dragons. I acquired them
recently, and haven't really read them yet. You
wouldn't have a clue as to which issue, or maybe the
year of the issue?

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 03:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 12 02:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
Message-ID: <150c9d1542de.1542de150c9d@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel Tackett <haegen2001@yahoo.com>
Date: Monday, August 12, 2002 10:47 am
Subject: Re: [TML] Folding stocks

> Very interesting. Is there a link to a site that
> involves Phoenix Command Combat?
> Maybe my games would include a bit more combat, if the
> system was more interesting.

<<snip>>

Have you considered _At Close Quarters_ from BITS?




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 03:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Mon Aug 12 02:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <150c9d1542de.1542de150c9d@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <20020812091323.19972.qmail@web11804.mail.yahoo.com>

> 
> Have you considered _At Close Quarters_ from BITS?
> 
> Sounds familiar, but no, I've never tried it. Who
makes it?
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 04:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Mon Aug 12 03:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Broken Links: Anyone know where they really are now?
Message-ID: <memo.792770@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <pp6eluc7hj57m61c5ff320m97pc6ntf431@4ax.com>
Greetings dear hearts.

Not always a fail-safe, but when a site has disappeared it has often been 
archived on the Wayback Machine.

Go to http://www.archive.org/ and type the URL of the 'lost' site into the 
search box.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.
Snoop of this parish.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 05:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug 12 04:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Great book
Message-ID: <200208121101.MPL01105@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>10000 gee acceleration is a *lot*.  What sort of materials 
>can take that much stress in a macroscopic object?  Even a 
>block of solid steel is likely to rupture.

The components for a 155mm artillery shell are certified to 
100,000g, and have been so since the 1970s.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 05:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Hamill)
Date: Mon Aug 12 04:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure: Frontier Rescue
Message-ID: <20020812111141.33337.qmail@web21505.mail.yahoo.com>

Prologue
20 June, 2346 A.D. 1325 GMT
Leiber IV system
New Wyoming 

The winter culling of the herds was almost over. In
only two weeks the cargo ships that would take the
meat, hides, and other usable parts of what the locals
rerferred to as duffs would arrive. Most families
hadn't yet met their quotas, and skinner to herd boss,
were working around the clock to get finished. Others
were done or nearly so, and would get to New Cheyenne
early, to start the party before the ships arrived.
One of those was the Nguyen family.

Dan Nguyen, herd boss of the family, was organizing
the last of the culling operations when he got a call.
"Hey Bossman, can you spare a second? There's
something I want to show you." Dan grinned, "Sure
Little Mickey, I'll be right over." He turned down the
volume control as his earpiece exploded with curses
and threats. "Little Mickey", his younger brother, was
over 2 meters tall, and massed over 130 kilos, and
really resented being called by his childhood
nickname. Dan walked over to his ATV, climbed inside,
flicked the power switch on, and smoothly accelerated
towards where his brother should be.

When he got there he saw his brother standing next to
one of their hired hands, named Sam. Sam looked to be
in some pain, and was holding his right arm at his
side. "Uh Oh," He thought, "Mike better not be getting
into scraps with the hands again." He got out of the
ATV, and walked between the placidly eating duffs over
to where the two men stood. "Ok, whats going on?" He
asked. Mike looked over to his brother, "Well, I think
I'd better let Sam tell you, I really didn't see the
whole thing, I got here afterwards." Sam shifted his
injured right arm and started talking, "Well it was
the damndest thing, I was starting to put the bolter
up to that duff's head over there," motioning with his
head at a duff nearby grazing, " and the thing lifted
up it's head, looked straight at me, and headbutted
the bolter right out of my hands! The bolter went
flying, and I think the big bastard knocked my arm out
of its socket, cause I can't work it right." Dan
narrowed his eyes and looked Sam over. He didn't look
drunk, and Sam had been with the family for a few
years now, and wasn't the type to lie or exaggerate to
get out of trouble. "I've never heard of a duff doing
anything like that before, ever." "I know Boss, but I
swear that's just what it did!" "Well, if you're sure
about it, maybe we need to look over that duff, and
see if anything's wrong with it." 
Mike had been looking around in the grass during this,
stopped, bent over and retrieved the bolter. "It looks
OK, I'm just going to try it out to see if it works."
Mike walked over to the duff that Sam had picked out.
Dan suddenly got a strange feeling, and called out to
his brother. "Wait a minute, let's check that du..."
He stopped as his brother, hefting the bolter to the
duff's forehead, came face to face with the animal. It
was looking straight at him. Mike and the duff stared
into each others eyes for a moment, and then the duff
started a low rumble in the back of its throat, which
picked up in pitch and intensity to a high scream.
Mike began to back away from the animal, but it was
too late. The seemingly enraged duff charged Mike,
hitting him and tossing him 4 or 5 meters away, where
he lay still, then rushing to the prone man and
beginning to stomp, kick, and bite at him. Sam and Dan
looked on in horror, until Sam noticed the other duffs
in the herd had noticed the attack, and were watching
it and them. "Uh, Boss, I think we'd better..." "
Yeah, you're right Sam, let's get back to my ATV." The
two men began to back away, with some of the duffs
beginning to follow, some of them beginning to make
the same rumbling sounds the first duff did. Dan
looked back to where his brother lay. "Sam, when I
yell run as fast as you can to my ATV, and try to get
some help." "We can both run at the same time,
Boss..." "No Sam! I have to go back for my little
brother. Now RUN!" With that Dan gave Sam a push and
turned back towards where his brother lay. Sam ran as
fast as he could towards the ATV, tears of pain and
fear streaming down his face. He could hear behind him
the screams of the duffs, and the angry cries of Dan
Nguyen. Dan's voice was suddenly cut off with a
painful scream. Then Sam could both feel and hear the
Duffs begin to charge towards him. The fear and
adreniline gave him the power to run the ladt few
steps in a heartbeat. He pulled himself up the two
rungs to the driver's door, opened it up, and pulled
himself inside. Pulling the door shut, he could see
the herd running towards him. He fumbled with his good
hand for the radio. "Emergency! Emergency! Kill Team 2
has an emergency! Oh god, Mike and Dan are dead, and
the d..." As he spoke the enraged duffs struck the
ATV, throwing him into the inside wall, knocking him
out. He didn't wake as they overturned the vehicle, or
when the climbed onto it, crushing it with their
weight. Of course, it was much too late by then.

End Prologue

Thank you to those of you who helped me find GURPS
Modular Vehicles, and GURPS Character Builder. The
above was the prologue to the adventure that I ran for
some new Traveller players this weekend. I will post
the rest of the adventure as short fiction, if anyone
is interested. It went well, and several players
wanted to know if it could continue as a campaign.
Success!
Once again thank you to all the listers who helped me,
and to all those others who by their comments and
ideas on this list helped me start running Traveller
after a long time.

John
jwdh71@yahoo.com  


__________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 05:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Mon Aug 12 04:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure: Frontier Rescue
Message-ID: <memo.794790@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <20020812111141.33337.qmail@web21505.mail.yahoo.com>
Greetings dear hearts.

I for one would be fascinated to hear the rest of the adventure...

(Preferably in scenario form but no matter.)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 05:46:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 12 04:46:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
Message-ID: <19a45e19f516.19f51619a45e@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel Tackett <haegen2001@yahoo.com>
Date: Monday, August 12, 2002 12:13 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Folding stocks

> > 
> > Have you considered _At Close Quarters_ from BITS?
> > 
> > Sounds familiar, but no, I've never tried it. Who
> makes it?

Written by Doug Berry and James Lindsay and published by BITS, ACQ is a 
combat rules supplement for Traveller.  While ACQ was designed for T4, 
it includes conversion rules for CT, MT, TNE and GT (T20 hadn't been 
published when ACQ came out).  For more info (and/or to order ACQ), 
check out the Warehouse 23 link below.

http://www.warehouse23.com/item.cgi?BITSRACQ

BTW, the BITS site seems to be down.  Or is it jut me...?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 06:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 12 05:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Wanted: FF&S2 Ships
Message-ID: <1aacc61a9e40.1a9e401aacc6@us.army.mil>

~also posted to JTAS~

I'm starting up a variant TNE campaign (set in the Solomani Rim, 
featuring conflicts between the Terran Republic and the Dingir League) 
using T4 rules, and I'm looking for a few ships of 5000 dtons or 
smaller.  I have already designed a number of ships for this campaign, 
but I'd appreciate a few ships designed by someone else.

Thanks in advance!

PS:  I haven't gone through any of the TML Ship Rodeo designs; do any of 
them meet the above criteria (FF&S2, <= 5000 dtons)?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 06:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 05:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Broken Links: Anyone know where they really are now?
In-Reply-To: <pp6eluc7hj57m61c5ff320m97pc6ntf431@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020812082311.0205ceb8@192.168.0.1>

At 12:16 AM 8/12/2002 -0400, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
>I just did a maintenance run on Freelance Traveller, and came up with a
>bunch of broken links.  Can anyone tell me where these links _should_ be
>pointing to at this point in time?
>
>Broken Links:
[snip]
> ><http://www.travellerguns.com> - Tod Glenn's Mercenaries' Guide to Weapons

It's there, but the domain got stolen somehow.  Look under 
www.travellercentral.com.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 06:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 12 05:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The power of the Nobility
Message-ID: <1c089d1c0020.1c00201c089d@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Date: Thursday, July 25, 2002 10:52 pm
Subject: [TML] Re: The power of the Nobility

> >From: Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net>
> >Subject: Re: [TML] Re: The power of the Nobility
> >
> >From what I've read (from a libertarian site) 
> >Voir Dire appears to be a French term for jury
> >tempering.
> 
> A jury should indeed be well tempered:

<<snips definitions of "tempered">>

Sorry, but my first thought upon seeing the word "tempered" was the use 
of that term in Heinlein's _Farnham's Freehold_.  In that book 
"tempered" is synonymous with "castrated."

OTOH, I can think of some well-known jury verdicts that would lead me to 
belive that the jurors involved should be tempered, in order to remove 
them from the gene pool.... ;-)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 06:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 05:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMEMFCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020812082551.01a17e18@192.168.0.1>

At 12:10 AM 8/12/2002 -0700, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> >From: William Spencer <shadowjack@skyhighway.com>
> >Now, to really capture Starship Troopers in a movie, we should draw from
>the
> >time it was written, which was...[pulls out the book, checks the publishing
> >date]...1959.
> >THERE'S a proper book-to-movie adaptation.
> >I wish I had it on DVD.
>You know, given recent developments in video technology, in a few years, you
>might be able to make that movie yourself.

Hence the current drive by various Hollywood based industries for laws 
calling for *extremely* tight controls on things like CD & DVD burners.
 From what I understand, the Phantom Edit, and the Phantom Re-edit were not 
well received by the studio...

Hmmm....this is an interesting hobby for a crew during Jump, film making.
Shoot scenes against a blue screen, add the background in the editing process.
Re-edit to match the culture of the planet you're en-route to.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Vikings? There ain't no Vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was
burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway.
That's our story and we're sticking to it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 06:33:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Angus McDonald)
Date: Mon Aug 12 05:33:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
Message-ID: <OF6637FD53.2C67D73A-ONCA256C13.0023873E@dnsalias.com>

>>>
The standard GT:Far Trader rules are pretty explicit.  They don't.
Whether the GT:FT rules are a good model is not a question I'm
addressing.
<<<
I'm not familiar with the GT:FT rules, it sounds like we agree that more 
trade is desirable. In fact I'm pretty much going to focus on T20 for 
future roleplaying (although I'll be using old CT, MT and T4 material).

>>>
IMTU it's the low-tech or low-pop worlds that depend on trade the
most.  High-tech worlds can adapt to produce just about anything.
Low-tech worlds are much less flexible, and low-pop worlds rely on
trade for infrastructure development and maintenance.
<<<
If it mirrors 'modern' economics then hi-tech worlds will import stuff 
that can be produced more cheaply elsewhere, whilst lo-tech worlds will 
try to become the sweatshop of choice for hi-tech worlds in order to get 
enough credits to become hi-tech themselves. In terms of GWP, it might 
well be that imports/exports are a greater % for the lo-tech worlds 
(incidentally, Charles Handy a respected British business guru makes some 
interesting points about how GDP measures spending and thus indicates a 
society is richer if they spend more - even if they are in fact giving up 
quality of life for those goods ... e.g. GDP goes up every time a parent 
returns to the workforce, while they put their kids into daycare, but 
society is not necessarily better off - it all depends upon what you want 
to measure with GWP).

One of the hardest things to find in the universe is a world that easily 
supports life without technological intervention. If a hi-tech society 
finds such a world that has lo-tech, hi-pop, then you would almost 
certainly want to help them improve their TL so that they become a better 
market for your own exports (which are helping to pay for all those 
vacc-suit decals [t-shirts] you're importing, not to mention that really 
hi-tech stuff that you want to have [TL 15-16]). It's a bit like the 
current situation with China - a massive population waiting to consume all 
those nice 'necessary' western goods.

Must run,
---  from  ---
Angus McDonald
www.falkayn.com




Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
Sent by: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
12/08/2002 03:44 PM
Please respond to tml

 
        To:     tml@travellercentral.com
        cc:     (bcc: Angus McDonald/Dancrai)
        Subject:        Re: [TML] Rockballs and Economy


Angus McDonald wrote:
>  It would still be better to look at somewhere that is more vital to
> the world economy, a source of high technology, perhaps Japan?

For a high-trade Imperium or a low-tech/low-pop world, that would be a
better comparison.  Not for high-pop worlds in the GT Imperium,
though.


> A lot of this depends upon the Traveller trade rules, and whether
> your hi-pop world relies on imported Imperium high tech devices
> much.

The standard GT:Far Trader rules are pretty explicit.  They don't.
Whether the GT:FT rules are a good model is not a question I'm
addressing.


> I think IMTU interstellar trade will be more important for most
> hi-pop, hi-tech worlds and very unimportant for hi-pop, lo-tech
> worlds (especially if they have hi-agri). Lo-pop worlds will vary
> wildly.

IMTU it's the low-tech or low-pop worlds that depend on trade the
most.  High-tech worlds can adapt to produce just about anything.
Low-tech worlds are much less flexible, and low-pop worlds rely on
trade for infrastructure development and maintenance.


- Tim
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml





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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 06:35:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sebastian Rogers)
Date: Mon Aug 12 05:35:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Efate
Message-ID: <26B39E1664DDD311A1010008C7DB51FDEA9CE3@TIKITNT4>

Hello There
 
Just working on Efate from the point of view of a Striker campaign, and also
the jump off point for the next Traveller Adventure, and wondered how the
land grab is going?
 
Basically I was hoping to use anything you'd done so far.
 
Cheers

Sebastian Rogers <-- "I've got the medicine you need, I've got the power,
I've got the speed", Ian Kilminster

Technically Architected

 


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 06:38:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 05:38:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Wanted: FF&S2 Ships
In-Reply-To: <1aacc61a9e40.1a9e401aacc6@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020812083136.0197b1e8@192.168.0.1>

At 03:03 PM 8/12/2002 +0300, john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:
>~also posted to JTAS~
>I'm starting up a variant TNE campaign (set in the Solomani Rim,
>featuring conflicts between the Terran Republic and the Dingir League)
>using T4 rules, and I'm looking for a few ships of 5000 dtons or
>smaller.  I have already designed a number of ships for this campaign,
>but I'd appreciate a few ships designed by someone else.


Try the Gearhead webring

http://www.ringsurf.com/netring?ring=travgearhead;action=home


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 07:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug 12 06:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Great book
Message-ID: <200208121345.MPR01625@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>That's impressive, but I was thinking about bigger things 
>when I heard "missile".  Smaller objects resist acceleration 
>better (square-cube law again).

I think it has more to do with the duration of the impulse as 
well.  An artillery shell only has to put up with the 
100,000g shock for a split second.

An Orion ship spends much more time coasting between shots 
than it does handling the blast.  This is evidently how it 
handles the nuclear explosions temperatures as well.

According to the design, a disk of propellant is also 
suspended between the bomb and the pusher plate.  When the 
bomb goes off, according to the book no one will see a 
detonation until the x-rays reach the propellant - and even 
then, there isn't a flash until the ionized propellant 
strikes the pusher plate, where there would be a brilliant 
flash at approximately 120,000 degrees.  But the duration is 
so short, there isn't time to effectively heat the pusher 
plate.  They estimated that over the duration of a trip from 
ground launch (where the bombs would be around 1 kiloton), to 
orbit (where the bombs would be around 5 kiloton), and cruise 
to Saturn and back to low earth orbit, the total duration of 
high temperature against the pusher plate would be around one 
second.

Some of the brightest minds in physics were assembled for 
this project, and the only technological hurdle given for 
stopping the project was concern for fallout in Earth's 
atmosphere.  They were convinced that all other technological 
objections (shock, G-loads, vaporization of the pusher plate) 
were solved.  It has been proposed that a device that could 
initiate a thermonuclear explosion without a fission trigger 
would eliminate the last hurdle.  Still, such a machine would 
have to take off from a fairly unpopulated area, such as a 
remote island, and there might be EMP effects along the 
initial flight path - but these are 1 kiloton yield, and not 
bombs the size of strategic thermonuclear warheads.

The version that would carry people would accelerate at an 
average of 2 to 4 G.

The physicists did some calculations that indicate that any 
engine that operated at the same thrust and isp (in essence, 
at the same temperature, mass flow, and exhaust velocity) 
could never under any circumstances operate as a rocket with 
an internal combustion chamber - Orion is an external 
combustion chamber.  Fusion engines, if they are to achieve 
their optimum specs, will also operate as external 
combustion, in order to prevent the volatilization of the 
engine itself.  That last part is a matter of simple physics 
and heat transfer.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 07:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug 12 06:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
Message-ID: <200208121350.MPR02053@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Daniel Tackett asks
>Very interesting. Is there a link to a site that
>involves Phoenix Command Combat?

The game itself is out of print, but the books can be had.
The site is www.phoenixcommand.com.

Interestingly, Phoenix Command is only a combat system.  
Although roleplaying books were written for the system, they 
are not very interesting, other than to come up with 
scenarios where combat will take place.

And now I will cue Doug to shamelessly promote his work, 
because if you want a little more accuracy in combat, but you 
and your players aren't completely nuts and bolts about the 
details of combat, you should use Doug's book, which is 
available from BITS.  I like it much better than the CT, MT, 
or GURPS systems, but it doesn't take an hour to resolve 10 
seconds of combat actions.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 08:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 07:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #915 - 25 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20020812074802.18165.19115.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020812074802.18165.19115.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <fpfflu4v6q4smc523ttlhcop67sjcme1en@4ax.com>

On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 00:48:02 -0700, John Hamill <jwdh71@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Message: 19
>Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 22:30:10 -0700 (PDT)
>From: John Hamill <jwdh71@yahoo.com>
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>Subject: [TML] Adventure: Frontier Rescue
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
> 
> 
>

...and that was it.  John, care to try again?  And maybe try copying
submissions@freelancetraveller.com in the process?
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 09:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Mon Aug 12 08:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] ArchiveX/all good things...
Message-ID: <3D57D18F.708EC97E@mail.cswnet.com>

I see the archive is down again.

Im trying to find all of the "All good things..." posts from last month.

Did anybody save those?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 09:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Mon Aug 12 08:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Fwd: Penguin Airlines??
Message-ID: <20020812152722.57956.qmail@web11004.mail.yahoo.com>

  >>
  .....*Ahem*.....Forwarded from a friend from another
list without comment......

     MACessna
  >>
--- Michael Cessna wrote:
> Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 08:22:34 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Michael Cessna 
> Subject: Fwd: Penguin Airlines??
> To: Michael Cessna <graymask1120@yahoo.com>
> 
> 
> Note: forwarded message attached.
> 
> 
> =====
> Michael A. Cessna
> 
>
************************************************************
> "There is no such thing as low intensity violence."
> A. M. Gray, Commandant, USMC (ret)
>
************************************************************
>
> Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 19:43:00 -0700
> From: J. G.
> Subject: Penguin Airlines??
> To: 
> 
> Ok, so they use Linux.  Great.
> 
> I still don't think an airline naming themselves
> after a flightless bird 
> is a Good Idea.
> 
>
<http://www.desktoplinux.com/articles/AT3386270774.html>
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 10:53:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Aug 12 09:53:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Wanted: FF&S2 Ships
In-Reply-To: <1aacc61a9e40.1a9e401aacc6@us.army.mil>
References: <1aacc61a9e40.1a9e401aacc6@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <20020812175552.5470ae9b.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 15:03:10 +0300
john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:

> I'm starting up a variant TNE campaign (set in the Solomani Rim, 
> featuring conflicts between the Terran Republic and the Dingir League) 
> using T4 rules, and I'm looking for a few ships of 5000 dtons or 
> smaller.  I have already designed a number of ships for this campaign, 
> but I'd appreciate a few ships designed by someone else.

I have this 1000 ton TL-9 freighter, maybe that will help? Apologies for the lack of floorplans and the crappy layout of the text. My files are in disorder right now. There never were any deckplans anyway, but the rest of the problems would be fixed.

The ship has two maneuver engines, one antigravity drive used to float between ground and orbit, and one fusion rocket used for interplanetary travel (not to be used anywhere near settlements). It has a jump drive and fuel enough for two jumps, making it capable of going where other low-tech ships cannot.

I designed the ship to use in my (still after almost two years of preparations) upcoming First Contact campaign, therefore the low tech-level.

-----------------
Judith class freighter
Cost: MCr 477.374

Crew: 9
Captain, Pilot, Navigator/Co-pilot, Electronics operator, Chief engineer, Power plant engineer, Maneuver drive engineer, Jump drive engineer, Space hand/Steward

Armor: 0        (T4 value)
Structure: 12   (T4 value)
-----------------
Hull: 1000 ton streamlined long box
 Dimensions: 48.1 x 24.2 x 12 meters
 Hull material: Light ceramic composite
 Maximum safe acceleration: 1.8 G 

Standard antigravity drive
 Maximum gravity countered: 1.11 G (loaded), 2.64 G (fuel only), 3.09 G (empty)
 Thrust factor: 0.08

Fusion rocket drive
 Maximum acceleration: 0.56 G (loaded), 1.32 G (fuel only), 1.54 G (empty)
 Fuel consumption: 245 m^3 LHyd per hour at full thrust 

Jump drive
 Fuel consumption: 1400 m^3 LHyd per jump 

Fission plant (TL8)
 Fuel consumption: 25.9 m^3 radioactives per year
 Power output: 259.26 MW 

Electronics
 Two standard and one fiberoptic computer (TL9), Computer Power 2.0
 High automation, computer linked controls
 Navigation aids and fligth avionics (TL8)
 Radio communicator (TL8), 1000AU range, 200 m^2 antenna
 Passive scanner (TL9), sensivity 13.5, 20 m^2 antenna, resolution at 50000 km is 13 meters

Fuel tanks
 All fuel tanks are included in the life support volume
 LHyd internal tank: 4000 m^3
 Radioactives internal tank: 26 m^3 

Living quarters and crew areas
 5 small staterooms (2 beds each)
 2 sanitary facilities
 Crew lounge: 56 m^3
 Ordinary galley: 4 m^3
 Food storage: 0.5 m^3
 Sickbay: 112 m^3
 Ship's locker: 4.5 m^3
 8 computer linked workstations
 9 crew G-tanks (including crewstations) 

Life support
 Type III (standard) life support with a duration of 4 weeks
 Food for 9 persons, 4 weeks of normal meals, two weeks of emergency meals
 Main airlock: 4-person airlock with decontamination facilities
 Secondary airlock: 2-person airlock
 Maintenance airlocks: Four 1-person airlocks 

Cargo holds
 Cargo hold volume: 7283 m^3 (520.3 Td)
 Cargo hatches: 21 normal-sized (20 m^2) hatches
 Handling equipment: 21 cranes with a capacity of 36 tons per hour each.
 Loading/unloading time: 9h 40m 
---------------

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 11:00:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug 12 10:00:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEAIEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029171559.113.ajackson@ping>

Terry Carlino writes:
> So perhaps the problem is that the GT trade rules, in particular, work
> better for places like the Spinward Marches when you're talking about trade
> done by Free Traders, than they do for High Pop worlds in the interior
> joined together by megamerchants.
> 
> So what's the cutoff here? How much trade is necessary to make the back
> story of collapsing economies, riots and loss of tech level when trade is
> interrupted plausible?

Enough trade that there wouldn't be any worlds in the main parts of the
Imperium with a pop below 8 or a TL below C.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 11:07:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 10:07:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Broken Links: Anyone know where they really are now?
In-Reply-To: <20020812165303.25790.64770.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020812165303.25790.64770.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <laqflusa9f50m7ak1emuov58g9mc3o5r6c@4ax.com>

On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 09:53:03 -0700, mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan
Robertson) wrote:

>In-Reply-To: <pp6eluc7hj57m61c5ff320m97pc6ntf431@4ax.com>
>Greetings dear hearts.

>Not always a fail-safe, but when a site has disappeared it has often been 
>archived on the Wayback Machine.

>Go to http://www.archive.org/ and type the URL of the 'lost' site into the 
>search box.

Oh, I know about the Wayback Machine; I use it myself sometimes.  But this
is more an issue of keeping links in Freelance Traveller up-to-date; sites
that are 'irrevocably' lost, but available in the Wayback Machine, will
eventually be snarfed, and at first inserted /en toto/ into Freelance
Traveller, and then the individual articles assimilated over time - simply
to preserve good material.  However, I want to try to keep links updated in
preference to cyberarchaeology/cybercryptrobbing.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 11:12:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 10:12:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #916 - 22 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20020812165303.25790.64770.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020812165303.25790.64770.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <4jqflug1l5ggt3pjmujq78tf7djodkqeik@4ax.com>

On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 09:53:03 -0700, John Hamill <jwdh71@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Prologue
>20 June, 2346 A.D. 1325 GMT
>Leiber IV system
>New Wyoming 

>Thank you to those of you who helped me find GURPS
>Modular Vehicles, and GURPS Character Builder. The
>above was the prologue to the adventure that I ran for
>some new Traveller players this weekend. I will post
>the rest of the adventure as short fiction, if anyone
>is interested. It went well, and several players
>wanted to know if it could continue as a campaign.
>Success!
>Once again thank you to all the listers who helped me,
>and to all those others who by their comments and
>ideas on this list helped me start running Traveller
>after a long time.

You could have saved four words by putting a period after 'short fiction'
instead of a comma, and dropping the four words immediately following.

Please be sure to copy submissions@freelancetraveller.com separately when
you post further installments.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 11:15:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug 12 10:15:16 2002
Subject: Armor Schemes (was: Re: [TML] mines)
In-Reply-To: <20020810180812.B6285@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029171921.7515.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:

> Of course, neither is going to do much against a standard missile
> doing 6d x 4000 (5).  Half a million points of armour is really just
> getting silly (and infeasible).  :/

Well, spaced armor should actually be effective against missiles; basically, as
long as the mass density of the outer layer is moderately close to the mass
density of the missile (about 300 lb/sf, or a DR of 7,500 with GTL 12 armor),
the outer layer will disintegrate the missile, vastly reducing penetration
against the inner layers.  The problem with spaced armor is that realistically
it's _less_ effective than normal armor against lasers, or against any sort of
projectile that doesn't disintegrate on impact.

OTOH, there's no real reason to have empty spaces in the armor; just about any
non-critical components can plausibly be put between the hull layers.
> 
> 
> - Tim
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 
> 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 11:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Aug 12 10:26:02 2002
Subject: Armor Schemes (was: Re: [TML] mines)
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1029171921.7515.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B97D3D81.695C6%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/12/02 10:05 AM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@iii.com wrote:

>=20
> OTOH, there's no real reason to have empty spaces in the armor; just abou=
t any
> non-critical components can plausibly be put between the hull layers.

Not to mention low mass armor materials, like foam or aerogel.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 11:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 12 10:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Wanted: FF&S2 Ships
Message-ID: <2fc2c72f988d.2f988d2fc2c7@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Date: Monday, August 12, 2002 6:55 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Wanted: FF&S2 Ships

> On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 15:03:10 +0300
> john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:
> 
> > I'm starting up a variant TNE campaign (set in the Solomani Rim, 
> > featuring conflicts between the Terran Republic and the Dingir 
> League) 
> > using T4 rules, and I'm looking for a few ships of 5000 dtons or 
> > smaller.  I have already designed a number of ships for this 
> campaign, 
> > but I'd appreciate a few ships designed by someone else.
> 
> I have this 1000 ton TL-9 freighter, maybe that will help? 
> Apologies for the lack of floorplans and the crappy layout of the 
> text. My files are in disorder right now. There never were any 
> deckplans anyway, but the rest of the problems would be fixed.

Yes, this will serve quite nicely, since at least one of the worlds in 
my campaign has a Class A starport and a TL of around 9.

Much obliged! 

<<snip>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 11:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Mon Aug 12 10:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Broken Links: Anyone know where they really are now?
Message-ID: <memo.804609@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <laqflusa9f50m7ak1emuov58g9mc3o5r6c@4ax.com>
> Oh, I know about the Wayback Machine; I use it myself sometimes.  But 
> this
> is more an issue of keeping links in Freelance Traveller up-to-date; 
> sites
> that are 'irrevocably' lost, but available in the Wayback Machine, will
> eventually be snarfed, and at first inserted /en toto/ into Freelance
> Traveller, and then the individual articles assimilated over time - 
> simply
> to preserve good material.  However, I want to try to keep links 
> updated in
> preference to cyberarchaeology/cybercryptrobbing.

Very wise, I use it for the same purposes myself.

But it's a useful resource and whereas we aging webheads might know about 
it, I'm sure it's a new one to some listmembers :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 12:22:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (john fox)
Date: Mon Aug 12 11:22:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveler Minatures
Message-ID: <DAV508BiC6HbSzxdWGH000331fe@hotmail.com>

Hello Everyone:
  AT one time RAFM manufactured a bunch of Traveler mins.
Do they still make them?
I looked at their web site and could not find them.
If not, where do I look to find some?

John W. Fox

--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/html
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 12:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Mon Aug 12 11:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <B97C1824.694A5%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020812184500.25846.qmail@web11807.mail.yahoo.com>

> DMs for folding stocks are given in Book 1 of CT.
 
My apologies, the modifiers for stocks ARE in the CT
rules. I  wasn't looking hard enough. 
Thanks.

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 13:15:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Mon Aug 12 12:15:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <200208121350.MPR02053@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020812185753.1613.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>

THanks for the links. Phoenix command is just free
online rules now? BITs is only 8 bucks so why not?
Thanks.

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 13:20:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon Aug 12 12:20:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure: Frontier Rescue
In-Reply-To: <memo.794790@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020812191909.C82F92793F@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/12/02 at 12:43 PM,  mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan
Robertson) said:

>In-Reply-To: <20020812111141.33337.qmail@web21505.mail.yahoo.com>
>Greetings dear hearts.

>I for one would be fascinated to hear the rest of the adventure...

>(Preferably in scenario form but no matter.)

That would be my preferance too. I have a bunch of my players on the
TML, but with a bit of "modifying"...<g>...dropping them among the
"duffs" might be an interesting scenerio.

Eris 
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 13:27:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug 12 12:27:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
Message-ID: <200208121926.MQC00016@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Daniel Tackett asks
>THanks for the links. Phoenix command is just free
>online rules now? BITs is only 8 bucks so why not?

At Close Quarters is an add-on for Traveller - it's combat 
rules.

Phoenix Command is not free - you would need the books (4th 
Edition basic rules, plus extensions).  The web site you're 
looking at is put up by gearheads who love it.

Most people would probably prefer ACQ - unless you're an 
ultra gearhead.  Do you and your friends constantly discuss 
the minutiae of combat and weapons?  If not, then you'll be 
happier with ACQ.  If you do discuss minutiae like this, to 
the exclusion of roleplaying (i.e., you like doing this sort 
of thing with miniatures), then Phoenix Command will make you 
happy.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 13:32:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Mon Aug 12 12:32:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Lanth subsector navies IMTU
Message-ID: <3D580C0E.7F070297@mail.cswnet.com>

Lanth subsector naval forces, done with budgets from Meduim Navies.
All is IMTU; YMMV.

Notes:
Imperial Navy ships mostly drawn from Supplement 9.
Imperial Scout Service ships drawn from Supplements 7 and 9, along
with HGS for the Type S Scout ships.
Colonial and Planetary ships exclusively using HGS.

I have about 10-12 pages of just usp&#8217;s for the ships listed below, so if
your interested in any particular one drop me a note and I&#8217;ll send it
out to you. I tried to use the Imperial Data Package model for the
colonial ships. This is apparent in the use of the F-5 I Tiger units.
The F-5, in each of its formats, is 15dt and carries a tripple missile
turret. The Type S scouts are done in the same fashion, with the TL11
Scout being the one most familiar 2g, j2, etc, the TL10 and 9 Scouts are
2g, j1. Alot of fighters are used simply because there cheap. The Lanth
subsector doesn't have a HI POP world, so cheap firepower is the order
of the day.

Imperial Navy, Lanth subsector forces:
6 Naval Bases
2 Gionetti Light Cruisers
6 Chrysanthemum Destroyers
12 Fleet Couriers
36 Type T15 Patrol Cruisers
1 Fer De Lance Destroyer
3 Gazelle Close Escorts
2 TL13 Gigs (stationed at the Lanth Naval Base)

Imperial Interstellar Scout Service:
5 Scout Bases
8 Xboat Tenders
180 Xboats
39 TL 11 Type S Scouts
10 Survey Scouts

Note: Imperial forces are usually supplemented with units drawn from
Rhylanor and Lunion subsectors.

Colonial and Planetary Navies:

Extolay Colonial Navy:
2 CG10 Gunned Cruisers, 1 FF10 DFC class Frigate, 
10 SDB10 Exactor System Defense Boats,
6 Type T10 Patrol Cruisers, 9 CV9 Very Light Fighter Carriers,
each with 30 TL9 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters (270 total).

Lanth COACC:
9 TL11 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters, 
2 TL10 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters

Ghandi Customs Unit:
1 PF-9 patrol fighter w/5 marines

Wypoc Colonial Navy:
1 TL11 Scout, 2 TL12 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters

Quopist Unified Colonial Navy:
5 TL10 Patrol Cruisers, 3 TL9 Scouts,
11 TL9 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters

Treece Grand Colonial Navy:
10 BB8 Gornshima Battleships, 10 BB8 CAM-118 Gunned Battleships,
10 Type T8 Patrol Cruisers,
4 CV8 Very Light Fighter Carriers each with
40 TL8 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters (160 total),
13 CV7 Very Light Fighter Carriers each with
40 TL7 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters (520 total),
12 Type T7 Patrol Cruisers

Ivendo Colonial Navy:
6 TL10 Scouts, 2 TL9 Scouts.

Tureded Colonial Navy:
3 TL9 Scouts, 3 TL8 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters

Equus Colonial Navy:
4 CG11 Gunned Cruisers, 1 CG10 Gunned Cruiser, 
6 Type T11 Patrol Cruisers,
8 TL11 Type S Scouts, 12 SDB11 Exactor System Defense Boats,
6 TL9 Launches, 8 TypeT10 Patrol Cruisers

Rhise Unified COACC:
1 TL10 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighter

Icetina COACC:
5 TL7 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters

Cogri Colonial Navy:
5 Type T9 Patrol Cruisers, 8 TL9 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters,
14 TL8 Old Solomani Patrol Ships [UN PKF Patrol Ship] 

Skull Grand Navy:
1 BB9 Battleship &#8220;The Dead Head&#8221;, 6 TL9 Scout Ships, 
1 Type T8 Patrol Ship,
4 TL8 Old Solomani Patrol Ships [UN PKF Patrol Ship],
1 CV8 Very Light Fighter Carrier with 
40 TL8 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters

Dinom Corporate Navy:
3 TL9 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters
Note: This is as of 001-1105. Disposition of the fighters after the 
revolution is not known. [Referees, consult JTAS Article on Dinom].

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 13:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Aug 12 12:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Wanted: FF&S2 Ships
In-Reply-To: <2fc2c72f988d.2f988d2fc2c7@us.army.mil>
References: <2fc2c72f988d.2f988d2fc2c7@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <20020812214026.7446b051.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 20:26:32 +0300
john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:

> Yes, this will serve quite nicely, since at least one of the worlds in 
> my campaign has a Class A starport and a TL of around 9.
> 
> Much obliged! 

No problem. Glad that the ship might finally see some action...  *sigh*

Oh well, the upcoming year will contain a lot more RPGs than the latest five years, since I move back to my home town and main group... finally...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 13:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Aug 12 12:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D53003A.1070102@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020809190742.B3949@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D540E41.1040509@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020810113922.D5883@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3D58064C.4020008@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Timothy Little wrote:
> Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
>>The fact that they all share remarkable similarities in background
>>story is mere coincidence ;-)
> 
> 
> Sort of makes a shambles of the acronym "OTU" though :(

Nope, not at all, there's a CT OTU, a MT OTU, a GT OTU...

The problem is that you're trying to view several discrete objects as 
points along a continuum, when in fact they're not.

Note, between TNE, MT, and GT there are no less than three considerably 
different *qualitiative* timelines in the "OTU".

We spend vast amounts of time trying to reconcile different historical 
theories between versions of the game using *qualitative measures* ('Who 
was Arbatrella?') that end up widely divergent, its not at all 
unexpected that *quantitative* measures ('How much trade goes through 
this world?') will never be workable; there's just *way* too much data 
missing, and worse, the data is heavily skewed toward one particular 
aspect, the PC, and small tramp starship traffic, mainly in a single, 
backwater sector, riven by frequent wars.

Quantitatively measuring trade in the 'OTU' is like trying to determine 
predictive measures of trade balances and deficits between, say China 
and the United States, by looking at cross Indian Ocean dhow cargo 
traffic alone.

I'm sure you can come up with all sorts of pretty equations, charts and 
trend lines, but their relationship to reality will be due only to sheer 
coincidence. GIGO.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 13:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas R Glatz)
Date: Mon Aug 12 12:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Broken Links: Anyone know where they really are now?
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 12 Aug 2002 00:16:40 EDT."
 <pp6eluc7hj57m61c5ff320m97pc6ntf431@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020812194740.2ED362793F@mail.travellercentral.com>

> ><http://www.teleport.com/~douglas> - Douglas Glatz home page (also lin=
ks to pages below this location)


Teleport got bought out by Earthlink, and since I started my own hosting =
company anyway, I declined their services.  My home page is at http://dou=
glas.coonpanion.com, my traveller pages are now located at http://travell=
er.geekoids.com

douglas


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 15:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 12 14:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Landgrab Pagaton submission
Message-ID: <ae.2b69ddaa.2a897cce@aol.com>

at http://members.aol.com/exog/myhomepage/pagaton.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 15:10:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ken Murphy)
Date: Mon Aug 12 14:10:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Disintegrators, Dragon style
Message-ID: <F21UrxkQTffgaTuOHti00008e66@hotmail.com>

Daniel comments: I have a few really old Dragons. I acquired them
>recently, and haven't really read them yet. You
>wouldn't have a clue as to which issue, or maybe the
>year of the issue?

   Nope, I'm sorry Dan. I'd originally gotten the info off an acquaintence's 
Dragon CD set :(
  -Ken-

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 15:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Hamill)
Date: Mon Aug 12 14:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Complete Idiocy (was Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #915 - 25 msgs)
In-Reply-To: <20020812165303.25790.64770.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020812213351.67066.qmail@web21510.mail.yahoo.com>

Jeff Zeitlin wrote:

"Message: 19
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 10:00:25 -0400
Organization: None To Speak Of
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #915 - 25 msgs
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 00:48:02 -0700, John Hamill
<jwdh71@yahoo.com> 
wrote:

>Message: 19
>Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 22:30:10 -0700 (PDT)
>From: John Hamill <jwdh71@yahoo.com>
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>Subject: [TML] Adventure: Frontier Rescue
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
> 
> 
>

...and that was it.  John, care to try again?  And
maybe try copying
submissions@freelancetraveller.com in the process?
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com"

Sorry about that Mr Zeitlin, my webmail service seems
to have a mind of its own sometimes. I had just
started writing the e-mail containing the prologue
when my web-browser hiccupped, and suprise! e-mail
without any content. (Meaning no words, not my usual
e-mail which has no content even with words;-) I'll
try not to let that happen again. Mea Culpa, Mea
Maxima Culpa.

John
jwdh71@yahoo.com


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 15:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Aug 12 14:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <200208121926.MQC00016@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020812141413.009e30c0@mindspring.com>

At 03:26 PM 8/12/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Daniel Tackett asks
> >THanks for the links. Phoenix command is just free
> >online rules now? BITs is only 8 bucks so why not?
>
>At Close Quarters is an add-on for Traveller - it's combat
>rules.
>
>Phoenix Command is not free - you would need the books (4th
>Edition basic rules, plus extensions).  The web site you're
>looking at is put up by gearheads who love it.
>
>Most people would probably prefer ACQ - unless you're an
>ultra gearhead.  Do you and your friends constantly discuss
>the minutiae of combat and weapons?  If not, then you'll be
>happier with ACQ.  If you do discuss minutiae like this, to
>the exclusion of roleplaying (i.e., you like doing this sort
>of thing with miniatures), then Phoenix Command will make you
>happy.

Without tooting my horn too much...

ACQ was designed with the idea that it isn't weapons that decide 
firefights, it's the people using those weapons.  Tactical decisions are 
everything, and the difference between surviving and eating lead is 
measured in split-second decisions.  Do you move from cover now, or what 
for the other guy to make a move?

In my experience very few Traveller gun fights take place in open 
areas.  The are all confined to cramped areas like starships, startown 
alleyways, ancient ruins, so that's what I aimed for in the early design 
phase.  The key is controlling yourself and making every Action Point 
count.  It doesn't matter if you do everything right if you are caught 
flat-footed and unable to respond when the other guy makes his moves.

To this end I studied what the USMC calls CQB... Close Quarters 
Battle.  What I found surprised me.  Very few troops in CQB actually aim 
their weapons.  At point-blank range they don't have the time, and consider 
it better to blow a few rounds in the general direction of an 
enemy.  (Note: this does not apply to such specialists as SEAL Team 6 and 
the SAS, but these guys have APPs in the mid-twenties, and can afford to 
spend some on aiming actions.)  Combatants creep along hallways, using 
every piece of cover.  Actual combat when it comes is intense and 
quick.  During the Battle of Hue in 1968, the average firefight with the VC 
came at less than 10 meters, and lasted less than 30 seconds before one 
side was either killed or withdrew.  Reading police reports of actions 
against drug labs and crack houses revealed similar action statements.

That's what James and I wanted; a tense game of sliding down darkened 
corridors, pistol clenched in a sweaty hand, trying to get the drop on the 
Ine Givar holding the Admiral's daughter hostage, knowing that there might 
be a sentry around the corner.  I think we succeeded.  On those occasions 
when I've had the pleasure on running playtests or tournaments, I've 
noticed something interesting.

On the first run through, players burn all their AP running up and blasting 
away.  They then die when they get caught in the open with no AP left.  By 
the second or third game, they are acting like combatants, using available 
cover, working as a team, giving covering fire.. all the things that happen 
in real-life without a system that bogs down in minutiae of weapon 
performance.  I've received compliments on the system from combat veterans 
and police officers.

That, and you can throw penguins as weapons.  What more could you want?


-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is
that I am now a perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague
here is rapidly running out of limbs!"
   - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 16:00:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug 12 15:00:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
Message-ID: <200208122159.MQH03009@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry says
>ACQ was designed with the idea that it isn't weapons that 
>decide  firefights, it's the people using those weapons.  

That's the main reason I use Phoenix Command - You can not 
only misuse your action, though.  There is something called 
initiative time, which is the time required to think about 
the next set of actions.

As an example: Doug has an Intelligence Skill Factor of 21.  
This means his Initiative Time is 8, and Action Number is 5 
(don't confuse Action Number with Action Count, which is the 
number of actions that one can take in 2 seconds).

Doug has just entered a building and is hiding around the 
corner of a corridor.  Somewhere down the corridor is a room 
from which an opponent is firing.  Doug decides to peek 
around the corner and duck back.  This decision takes 8 AC.  
So, 8 AC later he looks around the corner (1 AC) and ducks 
back (1 AC).

Donovan saw an empty corridor with two doors.  The first door 
seems to be the one from which he hears gunfire.  He decides 
to set down his rifle, arm a grenade, draw his pistol, run 
down the corridor, and toss the grenade through the open 
door.  a total of 5 separate actions.  This course of action 
takes 8 AC to devise, so after 8 AC, he proceeds with his 
plan.

Under circumstances where it is not safe to spend the time 
thinking about what to do next, you have to run to the 
nearest safe place (or hide where you are and think some 
more).  It's still possible to react defensively as well, but 
any action that implies personal initiative (such as 
attacking the enemy) requires thought.

The leadership skill has an effect on the initiative time of 
members in the group, as well as an effect on morale.

Combat now takes place on a more realistic time line - 
assuming that at least one team attempts to take coordinated 
action.  There can be substantial periods of silence between 
shots and movement as each side attempts (at the very least 
on an individual basis) to coordinate movements.  Then there 
are bursts of intense action.  A unit with a higher average 
initiative time, and a good leader, will be able to keep up 
the pressure and remain on the offensive, regardless of 
weapon type.  The badly led unit of combat-inexperienced PCs 
will be unable to go on the offensive, and will be swept away.

Overall, it's a lot of bookkeeping - a lot more than for 
ACQ.  But if you're striving for more detail...
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 16:13:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Mon Aug 12 15:13:06 2002
Subject: [TML] ArchiveX/All Good Things...
Message-ID: <3D583148.8FF27481@mail.cswnet.com>

Hey, thanks Leslie. That helps a little bit. Now if I can just find my
stuff and Larsens.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 16:22:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (KevinC)
Date: Mon Aug 12 15:22:06 2002
Subject: [TML] ATTN: Bryan Borich
Message-ID: <3D5834EF.114D8757@cnetech.com>

Bryan,

Please contact me off-list.

-- 
KevinC               Pentapod's World of 2300AD
kevinc@cnetech.com   http://www.geocities.com/pentapod2300/
                     http://go.to/PentapodsWorld


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 16:27:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 12 15:27:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
Message-ID: <42.2ba9b019.2a898fd1@cs.com>

In a message dated 8/11/02 3:55:26 PM Central Daylight Time, 
lesbates@minn.net writes:


> At 04:33 PM 8/11/2002 -0400, Mark Urbin wrote:
> 
> 
> >Yes.  Afleck is just a bit too 'pretty' for Trask. Perhaps as Prince 
> Bentrik.
> 
> Kenneth Branaugh (sp?) as Prince Bentrik.
> 
> >Now...who to play Otto Harkaman?
> 
> Twenty years ago I would have gone with Clint Eastwood as Harkaman. Need
> someone really tall.
> 
> 
> Les
> 
> 

Jeff Goldblum? Just need to make sure he doesn't slouch over so much.

Doug Grimes


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multipart/alternative
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 16:08:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 1 May 101 14:38:57 US/Central
Subject: [TML] The Best of the TML
Message-ID: <200105012050.f41KoX802336@premier1.premier.net>

> Now that the TML has a website (http://tml.travellercentral.com), I suggest
> we pull out the best postings on the list for a 'best of the TML' section of
> the website.  We need to create some mechanism for selecting "best ofs".
> Any suggestions?
> 
> The recent article on "Smart Fabrics" strikes me as a good candidate for the
> "Best Ofs".
> 
> What is the list members' opinion.

I suggest that there should be several categories of "Best of the TML" posts.  
Categories might include Toys (gearhead designs/ideas), Societies, 
Worldbuilding, Links, and Chrome (miscellaneous nifty stuff, such as Smart 
Fabrics).

Unfortunately, I have no idea how to implement an equitable system for 
_choosing_ "BotT"
posts.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 16:08:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Myers)
Date: Mon Aug 12 16:29:24 2002
Subject: [TML] sup.12 request [munchkin rant]
In-Reply-To: <MNEIJOCDFNHAIPMCMHEKEENICAAA.mickscan@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <200107020959.CAA09049@smtpout.mac.com>

I have the original, it's a corker. :-) The included scenario is a real 
example of how to deal with Big Secrets without upsetting the balance of 
power. It's the anti-SOTA (which I love as well, strangely).

- Rob.

On Sunday, July 1, 2001, at 11:07  am, Michael Scanlon wrote:

>
> I'm looking forward to the Alien Supplements to be out, which is looking
> like to be some time yet though. In particular I'm after the Darrian
> Supplement

--
JIEX - http://www.robmyers.org/jiex
Quarterly 2300AD Journal.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 16:08:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 101 17:28:59 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Filk of Veracruz
Message-ID: <200107262340.f6QNeYj00180@premier1.premier.net>

> What and whose melody is this song sung to?

The original song is Warren Zevon's "Vera Cruz," which can be found on the 
album "Excitable Boy."  It deals with the punitive expedition against Pancho 
Villa in (IIRC) 1916.

Tres cool stuff (both the original and Doug's filk).



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 16:08:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 101 18:35:33 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Traveller IRC
Message-ID: <200109120047.f8C0lPw19555@premier1.premier.net>

Yes mr. Zeitlin works in NCP as a system op.  He also lives outside the city 
the last time I heared.  Though I have not been on IRC in a bit.  For the rest 
of you he is the one who runs Free Traveller website.  

Tim Reynolds
aka Grayman


>

 From: "Swordy" <swordworlder@earthlink.net>
> 
>      "anxiously awaiting word from Jeff Zeitlin (of Freelance Traveller) who 
> works for the NYC police dept. :("
> 
> 
>      Has anyone gotten a PING from Mr. Zeitlin?  Mr. Ramen has checked in, 
> fortunately.  There are reports of "massive" casulties among NYPD and FDNY 
> personnel.
>      Doesn't he work in some sort of computer capacity and not a uniformed 
> one?
> 
> 
>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
> 
> 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 16:08:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 101 13:35:58 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Re: Donating Blood
Message-ID: <200109121947.f8CJlmw00196@premier1.premier.net>

Hi all

I got this from an archiveing professor just now.
Its a list of "surivors" of the attack.  I have looked at
it and it has a few problems.  
These are the result of it being open to the 
so there are joke entries here and there.
But if it helps someone get more information on their love ones
it works for me.

http://www.ny.com/wtclist.html

Tim Reynolds




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 16:08:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 101 16:42:56 US/Central
Subject: [TML] PCs in the Big Picture
Message-ID: <200109172254.f8HMspw20018@premier1.premier.net>

> Ladies and Gentlemen,
> 
>      The horrific events of last Tuesday produced an odd tangent in my 
> thinking, even odd for a Whipsnade.
>      Just how involved are the PCs in your campaigns involved in the "Big 
> Picture"?
>      Using 911 as an example, would your PCs be simple passengers on one of 
> the hijacked flights or a group tracking the hijackers prior to the act or a 
> group after Bin Laden (IF he's behind this) himself?

I do not know if I would use the terms high powered games or lower power games 
when talking about this subject, Maybe High Politics/Low Politics would be 
better.  To me high power games are those where the PCs own 1000 ton patrol 
cruiser and have enough Power Armor to equip a company of mercs.

In either case, I run a mix game trying to do the classic Onion peel thing.  
Players love to know that they saved the Universe even if no else will ever 
know.  I mean this is role playing not your adverage day at work where you have 
to argue that the reason you did not pay your ship(car) payment on time was 
that the ship(car) fuel cost to much.  

Tim Reynolds




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 16:08:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 101 16:35:59 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Re: Red Storm Rising
Message-ID: <200109172247.f8HMltw19476@premier1.premier.net>


> > 
> > Also, IIRC, the critical shortage of oil in the USSR required that the oil
> > fields be captured quickly and _intact_, and the extreme measure of 
attacking
> > NATO was seen as enabling that goal.
> 
> Well that's one of the things that seemed daft. Going to war on two different 
> fronts on only one's existing oil stocks has to be twise a silly as going to 
> war on only one. Besides I never could buy that so much of the Soviet 
> porduction could be destroyed in one hit that this sort of thing would 
> necessary.
> 
> 

Ask the Germans about starting a war with one front just to deal with the 
orginal war in the first place.  Or even the Japan in WWII.  Based on these and 
probably alot of other cases I do not know Red Storm Rising is possible when 
looking at the Political Military side of things and not just either one by its 
self.  


Tim Reynolds



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 16:08:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 101 09:39:46 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Democracy?  Or not?
Message-ID: <200109191551.f8JFpfw02966@premier1.premier.net>


To be honest I am not sure if I am insulted by this or not.  It&#8217;s bad when 
after the 2000 elections everyone here said, thank god it was Florida and not 
us.

Go LSU Tigers.

OT:
I mean every time I build a third world nation/world or think of dirty politics 
I model it off of Louisiana.  Our leaders personalities make for great NPC 
personalities that you just love to hate.  We have bigots, crooks, con men, and 
a police force that was so corrupt at one time that FBI had to take over 
running New Orleans. The patron system is also alive and kicking down here. On 
other hand we actually work and party hard so there is a lot of fun.

So does anyone else use really leaders to models NPC?  Also I think the most 
corrupted systems would also be the most exciting systems?

Tim

> > Sorry, I couldn't let that go.  Taiwan is no more a republic than, say, 
> Louisiana under Huey Long.  Unless your definition of a republic includes 
> vote-buying, legislation by brute force, mafia control of large parts of 
> the government and very low accountability to the people.  Those things are 
> natural, I think, but far from a necessary part of a republic, and 
> certainly not unavoidable in the amounts that they are present here.  I 
> also don't think Taiwan is doomed to this kind of existence forever, but 
> certainly for a while at least.  Democratic values take a long time to 
> foster and mature, and Taiwan has only been a democracy for about 15 
> years.  Confucianism will take quite a while to dismantle.
> 
> -- Rachel
> 
> 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 16:08:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 101 13:07:26 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Spinward Marches Statistics
Message-ID: <200110021919.f92JJUX21034@premier1.premier.net>

This is cool bit of data.  my next question is what system are they in and who 
wants to draw up the stratgic plans to take them ?

> Hello Folks,
>   After taking a hard look at how many planets in the Spinward Marches have
> the ability to build TL15 (GURPS TRAVELLER TL12) ships, I got to wondering
> about how the Imperium would build its fleets.  The following information
> was gleaned from a GURPS TRAVELLER database.  The translation between the
> GURPS rules and the CT rules is that TL 9 ships include Traveller TL's
> 9,10, and 11 ships.  TL 10 ships include Traveller TL's 12 and 13.  TL 11
> ships include Traveller TL 14, and TL 12 equals Traveller TL 15.  The only
> star ports I included in checking via the database, were Class V (or
> Traveller Class A starports).  Class IV or Traveller class B starports of
> course, can build Battle riders and fighters.
> 
> These are the statistics of the Spinward Marches:
> 
> Starports able to build Jump 1 & 2 ships:		17	
	531,046,053 dTons/year
> Starports able to build Jump 3 & 4 Ships:		11	
	115,450,926 dTons/year
> Starports able to build Jump 5 Ships:		 1		 52,000,000 
dTons/year
> Starports able to build Jump 6 Ships:		 5		676,520,000 
dTons/year
> 
> These values are approximations of the TCS tonnages.  I took the population
> values (without including the population modifier, as this is not in my
> database right now) and subtracted 3 from them, and raising that to the
> 10th power.  Example: a population 9 world would result in a starport that
> could build 10^(9-3) or 1,000,000 dTons.  This is based on the formula that
> read something to the effect of P x pop/1000.  Ignoring P, it works out to
> Pop/1000, or 10^(pop-3).
> 
>        Hal
> 
> 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 16:08:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 101 13:10:29 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Question/Face to go by
Message-ID: <200110021922.f92JMXX21250@premier1.premier.net>

> At 05:10 PM 10/01/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >David Hackworth's mailing list reprinted a piece from the Sunday Times
> >concerning conditions in Afganistan.
> >
> >Anyone want to see it?
> 
> OK, somebody hold me back.  Please.
> 
> David Hackworth used to be a soldier.  In fact, at one time, he was held
> the distinction of being the most-decorated soldier in the Army.  Then he
> lost his nerve.  He's spent the last thirty years knocking down the force
> he left behind, usually without any real information.

Just so I am picturing this guy right is he the older guy with the gray crew 
cute.  I think he was Col in the Army.  I just can not put a name with a face.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 16:08:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 101 14:20:28 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Enough!
Message-ID: <200110152032.f9FKWfg23633@premier1.premier.net>

Hey Doug not to question the masters or anything but......


> >What makes this the first psionic wave?  The Universe is know to 
> >work in some cylces so maybe this is the second or the one 
> >thousand wve to come from the center.  Could it be that the wave 
> >had something to do with Grandfather's abilities.  Does this mean 
> >that there could actually be more then one grandfather around.  
> >Going on this how many waves, travelling at light speed,  could 
> >there have been if the galaxy is something like 4 billion years old?
> 
> Perhaps it is a regular event, every 300,000 years or so.  This would time
> the last wave with the Ancient's Final War.


I do not have a timeline handy, but wasnt this war only 10,000 years ago?
Now if the war was 300,000 years ago, and the current wave occures simo with 
the destruction of the 3rd Imperium we have some cause and effects going on.
Some how this brings a Star Treck plot thing to mind : )  




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 16:08:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 101 13:55:32 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Re: Magnetic tank armor
Message-ID: <200110162007.f9GK7kg02225@premier1.premier.net>

A question was asked

> >   BTW, does anyone have any estimates on how long the USACE would
> need to upgrade facilities to execute sealifts of armor brigades
> to Afghanistan in the current unpleasantness? :>

I do not know the exact timeing but I do know it will be shorter then the Gulf 
War's rough 6 month execuation time.  This is the results of several 
congressional and executive studies of the whole process and the shock at the 
amount of time it took to carry out the G.W.'s sealift.  I think we need to 
keep one thing in mind Afganistan is landlocked and I do not see US tanks 
rolling through Pakastain to get there.  

So this brings into airlift operations and the deploying of the Kittyhawk as a 
floating airlift base.  When you talk about medium armor I think it should be 
designd for airlift not sealift operations.  Nothing like having 2-3 medium 
tanks dropping out the back of a C-5 on top of the enemies position supported 
by a swarm of gunships and strike aircraft.  

Hmm OT  

I dont have any Space lift operations are covered pretty good




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 16:08:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 101 15:21:48 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Enough!
Message-ID: <200110162134.f9GLY2g07994@premier1.premier.net>

> > On 10/15/01 at 01:51 PM,  Mole <mole@solsec.org> said:
> > 
> >> Ummm... I keep getting these posts dated from 1940
> > 
> >> I think someone needs to check their date and time settings?
> > 
> > I suspect Tim is using a Y2K non-compliant email client...or we just have a
> > real timemachine going on. <g>
> > 
> > Eris
> 
> 
> If there were a time machine I'm sure it would be in the hands of those best
> capable of using it...Citizen...Have you spoken with your local monitor
> lately?
> 
At this time it would not be prudent for me to confirm or deny my possession of 
a time machine.  

Tim





From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 16:08:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 101 16:08:12 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Re: Magnetic tank armor
Message-ID: <200110182220.f9IMKQg03666@premier1.premier.net>

Hi everyone

> ....
> >So this brings into airlift operations and the deploying of the Kittyhawk as 
a floating airlift base.  

Ok though you might be able to deploy C130s from the Kittyhawk(remember it deck 
is bigger then a WWII carrier)  I was not referring to fix wing aircraft but to 
helicopter airlift.  However, FYI the DOD has looked into semi fixed naval 
vessels about the size of 3 aircraft carriers, that could launch a C17, and 
have like a pre-positioned Marine force.  When you realize that the current 
Assistant Secretary of State is one of the people arguing for such an idea then 
you see why the Kittyhawk is being deployed this way.  


>When you talk about medium armor I think it should be 


As far as this goes I am talking about near the positions with armor cable of 
fighting in non WWIII conditions for limited operations.  Also I was picturing 
in the future.  I was pointing out that airlifts if you can get the right combo 
of factors working is better then sealift, because it is faster.

OT

Maybe we can have a design contest to see who can develop the best assault 
units. This would use LBB 4 and GURPS Ground Forces



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 16:08:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 101 14:38:22 US/Central
Subject: [TML] You know you're an old Traveller when...
Message-ID: <200111052150.fA5Long20375@premier1.premier.net>


> >It then gets worse when they ask "When was this adventure written?", you
> check and 
> >reply 1981 to which they both respond "I wasn't even born then!"
> 
> My new secondary partner wasn't born when Traveller came out!  (Secondary
> partner: polyamory term for some you have a relationship with other than
> your primary.  Read your Heinlein.)
>

How about when you have characters "older" then some of the players in your 
group.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 00:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jul 31 23:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <a6.29f91dee.2a7a2a7a@aol.com>

 >> Fighter crews, sent out in the manner that the original post
 >> specified, will know otherwise--that there's little chance they as
 >> individuals will make any difference at all, and that they're almost
 >> certainly going to die uselessly.
 >
 >You keep saying that, but the original post did not.  It stated that
 >100 fighters for 1 capital ship may be worth it.  What it _didn't_
 >state was how large the attacking force of fighters is.  Sure, it
 >could be 100--but it could also be 1,000.

Always appreciate having my memory challenged.  The original post from packet 
#832 was as follows:

>For HG style fights, I added a "visual range" range band.  
>You have to spend at least one turn at short range before 
>closing to visual (essentially, you have to win initiative 
>twice).  At visual range, weapons automatically hit without a 
>roll.  Sand becomes a weapon similar to a plasma gun at 
>visual.  Note that if there are more fighters attacking than 
>there are defensive batteries at visual range, something is 
>going to get through.  So I added a single autocritical 
>regardless of armor or ship size for any nuclear weapons that 
>get through.  And to make that interesting, I set a limit as 
>to how many warheads a damper can try and stop - one per 
>factor.
>
>Suddenly, the small, cheap fighter with a nuclear missile and 
>a laser, being flown by a human with a mediocre computer 
>becomes a possibility in navies that are willing to put up 
>with the losses - a few hundred fighter pilots in trade for a 
>major capital ship.

This tactic is presented not as a desperation move, but an ordinary one to be 
implemented if said navy can put up with it.  To which I responded that no 
fighter pilot community would tolerate it.  Even if the attacking squadron is 
originally 1000, after two capital ships they'll be combat ineffective using 
this tactic, and there will be NO volunteers to replace them until the tactic 
is discarded.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 00:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jul 31 23:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <e6.2be0ca41.2a7a3051@aol.com>

 >When I was stationed at Ft. Campbell, we had numerous 
 >nighttime helicopter accidents, usually involving more than 
 >one helicopter at once, and usually killing the passengers 
 >(we infantrymen) in decidedly horrific fashion.  I remember 
 >taking someone's entrails out of a tree.  But we didn't stop 
 >riding in helicopters, nor did we have mutinous discussions 
 >about how we would stop riding until they stopped flying 
 >between the trees at night.

You would have if 90 out of 100 crashed between breakfast and lunch.

Look, I appreciate what you're saying, and I understand the drive to climb 
that ladder, and I understand service to country.  But there is a big 
difference between what you are saying and what was implied in the original 
post.  People take up being paratroops or rangers even though they know the 
job is potentially hazardous because they know it is not always and forever 
hazardous.  These same people would NOT take up such a job if they were told, 
"Each and every time we send you out the vast majority of you are not coming 
back."  Who would lead such people?  Who would train them?  There would be no 
survivors left to do so.  I'll say again regarding the original post:  any 
pack of pilots that would volunteer to die by the hundreds to kill one 
capital ship as a regular ordinary tactic will all be at level 0.  There will 
be no experienced person to train or lead them.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 00:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jul 31 23:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <19e.638001c.2a7a328e@aol.com>

 >Just turning to the first page of world listings in GT:Rim of Fire, I
 >see that Darrukesh has 8.2 billion sophonts.  Note that a capital ship
 >can in theory do quite a handy job on a planet's surface, if desired.
 >Now, as Grand Admiral of the Darrukesh fleet, would you expend
 >1.22e-6% of your world's population to prevent that from occuring?

You are discussing survival situations.  The original post concerned an 
ordinary standard tactic to be employed every time "if the navy can tolerate 
the losses".
They won't.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 00:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jul 31 23:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <ac.2b2232c0.2a7a3323@aol.com>

 >>tcs neglects the most important fleet construction factor of all.
 >>go back to tcs and re-read the rules.
 >
 >Tell you what - you go _play_ some hg/tcs, then come back and
 >talk about people reading tcs.

Sure.  I'll play you -- if you can handle it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 00:48:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jul 31 23:48:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <27.2b4e7fcb.2a7a338a@aol.com>

 >Rock, Paper, Scissors.  Your calculations don't go far enough.

Could be.  Let's find out.  Show me.  Can you handle it?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 00:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jul 31 23:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <12e.1530f6bf.2a7a34a4@aol.com>

 >>by the way, just what is orbital bombardment and why does
 >>it require some special ship?
 >
 >It may require less (or different) capability than that
 >required to stand against a major capital ship.  If I can
 >make two or three ships minimally suited to orbital
 >fire-support missions for every one of your jack-of-all
 >trades dreadnaughts, then I can run two or three times as
 >many ground assault operations at the same time as you can.

Tonnages!  I want tonnages!  And I want to know every reason why you put in 
what you did and left out what you did.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 00:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jul 31 23:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <196.abe40d6.2a7a3514@aol.com>

 >>  between nukes and meson guns, what else could anyone want?
 >
 >They might want more choices besides Dreadnaughts.

Show me your choices.  I'd love to see 'em.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 01:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 00:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <12d.1506ac4f.2a7a379b@aol.com>

 >>there is one other defense you're forgetting. (against meson guns)
 >
 >Agility?  It reduces hits, doesn't block damage from them.
 >Or are you talking about something from the "house
 >rules" you've been talking from all along, instead of
 >the rules everyone else has been using?

Neither, actually.  Oh, and I would really like to hear your specific 
objections to each specific house rule.  I really do want to hear from your 
superior wisdom.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 01:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 00:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <f3.1ed9f0cb.2a7a396a@aol.com>

 >> >Your super-dreadnaught is one "Fuel Tanks Shattered"
 >> >hit away from being dead in space, no matter how buff
 >> >you make it - and there are Cruisers (or packs
 >> >of them) that can deal such damage to it.
 >>
 >>wow.
 >
 >Yes, wow.  High-tech societies should be very, very careful
 >about their reasons for getting mad enough to smack major
 >fleet elements into each other.  Even the winner is probably
 >going to bleed white.

Unreserved agreement here.  Oh wise teacher, I seek experience, unworthy as I 
am.  My poor virgin Spinward Marches Colonial Fleet awaits.  Battle me!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 01:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 00:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <9a.295bcf54.2a7a3abb@aol.com>

 >the best, and I mean the best, adventures are those that 
 >are "two party" adventures - one party of players against 
 >another.  The referee can never buy or write a one-party 
 >adventure that is as tense, hilarious, or as emotional as 
 >a "two party".
 >
 >Especially if the people in both parties know each other as 
 >gamers.  The referee doesn't have to do all of the thinking 
 >for one side anymore.

(mental eyes opening wide as possibilities come into view)  Now that _is_ a 
good idea.  Has this been around for a while and I've missed it, or is it 
something your group came up with?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 01:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 00:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Acceptable losses
Message-ID: <10d.15a5705f.2a7a3b9c@aol.com>

 >Some people I know do *not* believe the casualty figures from 
 >WW I.  They insist that it's simply not possible.

England had the custom of entire villages and towns volunteering to form one 
entire unit, which would fight together.  Frequently they were all gunned 
down together, and an entire village or town would lose most of its young men 
all at once.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 01:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 00:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <8d.1bfa1383.2a7a4253@aol.com>

 >The point of my video game comment was to illustrate that it's not
 >unrealistic that fighter pilot skills might conceivably be learned from
 >games.  I still believe that to be the case; you've certainly not
 >demonstrated otherwise.

I can't.  You lack the experience I might appeal to to do so.  For that 
matter, so do I -- I'm not a pilot.  But I've seen what works and what 
doesn't in a military.  But you haven't even seen that.

Try contacting a real fighter pilot sometime.  Ask him if fighter pilot 
skills might be learned from sophisitcated games.  Ask your local recruiter 
-- maybe he has a pilot come in once in a while to help him recruit.  Or 
heck, you could even call a nearby AFB or naval base, contact the liaison, 
and ask to speak to a pilot for ten minutes or so.  But it would be better if 
you can look him in the eye as he talks to you.

 >> He will shuck and jive, pretend equipment failures, or run.  He most
 >> certainly won't volunteer for that sort of duty again.
 >
 >That's a pretty low opinion of a fellow officer

A fellow officer, he says!  They wouldn't be officers, they'd be cannon 
fodder.  And they'd know it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 01:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith Mormon minion of Arioch)
Date: Thu Aug  1 00:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <f3.1ed9f0cb.2a7a396a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000501c2392c$7b7b0800$6f7ba8c0@kenneith93j41k>

That is the whole argument of detant, that the cost would be too high if
both sides went to war.
ken

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comics
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you
http://www.geocities.com/J_Elric_Smith/Index.html
----- Original Message -----
From: <Flykiller@aol.com>
> Unreserved agreement here.  Oh wise teacher, I seek experience, unworthy
as I
> am.  My poor virgin Spinward Marches Colonial Fleet awaits.  Battle me!
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 01:56:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 00:56:27 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <bf.241eecb7.2a7a4368@aol.com>

 >>asking hundreds of them at a time to give up their lives all 
 >>at once, just to make a tactic work, in one segment of a 
 >>single battle, is not an insignificant outlay for THEM.  
 >>(push button) "go do this, guys."  (lights 
 >>flash) "ok."  it doesn't work that way.
 > 
 >See the battle of Midway.  The low level torpedo attack 
 >planes that sacrificed themselves to Japanese anti-aircraft 
 >fire so that the dive bombers would have a chance.

Yes, with a huge Japanese fleet threatening their homeland and only them 
standing between the yellow peril and their families.  It was not, however, a 
standard tactic, employed "because they'll tolerate it".

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 02:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 01:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <43.f41b3de.2a7a45aa@aol.com>

 >HMS Glow-worm ramming the Admiral Hipper comes to mind. The destroyer's 
 >mass
 >was literally the only thing that might hurt the cruiser, and if she wasn't
 >hurt then the convoy would be massacred. Her skipper knew his ship would
 >sink; he knew many (but probably not all) of his crew would die. But the
 >decision was made in the face of the enemy, for a clear goal - to save
 >hundreds of helpless merchant seamen. Would the crew have accepted an
 >Admiralty policy of "we're not giving you torpedoes. You're to close and
 >ram, then sink"? In desperate times, some people actually would. But, say,
 >in 1934? Nope.

Thanks.  I was beginning to think I was the only one here who thought this 
way.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 02:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Aug  1 01:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Ring
References: <20020801000225.15828.154.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D48ED45.AD92306F@earthlink.net>

Glenn M. Goffin reminded us:
> 
> From: "Mosaic Tapestry" <n2sami@attbi.com>
> To: "Traveller Mailing List" <tml@travellercentral.com>
> Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 23:10:18 -0700
> Organization: often equals Disorgainization
> Subject: [TML] Traveller Ring
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> This is the semi-occasional irregular announcement of the existence
> of
> the Traveller Ring. Available at:
> 
> http://www.ringsurf.com/netring?ring=traveller;action=info


Yessss, we wantss our preciousss! Must have preciousss!

Oh.

Sorry, wrong ring.

David S.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 02:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 01:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] [OT] comic book universe battles
Message-ID: <129.1523d6e2.2a7a48bb@aol.com>

 >> Actually, when I watched the movie last year in one of my film classes
 >> ("Film Genres 160: Science-Fiction Cinema"), I realized that it can be 
read
 >> as an argument _against_ the politics of Heinlein's books. Since the book
 >> seems to say, in effect, "A military dictatorship isn't necessarily that
 >> bad!",
 >
 >It seems to say that to some people. The rest of us sit there wondering
 >if they read the same book we did.

I read the book and saw the movie, and I didn't hear anything for or against 
the portrayed government type in either one.  They just portrayed it, and 
left it at that.  I think that evaluations of what the book and movie were 
trying to say are simply reflections of the viewers' own judgements, like an 
inkblot test.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 02:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 01:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
Message-ID: <cf.1abcc5f7.2a7a49d6@aol.com>

 >In Washington, D.C., the homicide department is in complete 
 >shambles.  I sometimes wonder if the powers that be intend 
 >for it to be so.  Cases are lost, forgotten, misplaced...

The department reflects the community that it polices.

You are aware of what Cincinatti is going through now?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 02:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 01:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Acceptable losses
Message-ID: <d5.1b14d150.2a7a5048@aol.com>

 >Great reply. But I think you ignored one area.

Only one?  I did better than I thought!

>While a lot of credit is given to soldiers fighting for some greater, nobler
>idea, studies have repeatedly pointed to the formation of small, tightly
>knit groups as the key to successful armies.  Men rarely risk death and
>dismemberment for higher ideals.

Yeah, I keep hearing this.  I believe it, but I can't see it.  I'm one of 
those who looks to the noble idea.  I know the other tribal/herd thing is out 
there, and I know what it is and how it works, but it's a complete blank spot 
to me personally.

>Many scholars have pointed to the effectiveness of veteran troops over green
>one by observing that these small unit bonds are much stronger between men
>who have shared the rigors of war, and it is that which makes them more
>effective and willing to go the 'extra mile'

I read somewhere that during the War Between the States the Northern armies 
would place new recruits in entirely new brigades, which made them unreliable 
at first, while the Southern armies would install their new recruits in 
established armies, which steadied their new recruits greatly.

Thanks.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 03:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Thu Aug  1 02:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] John Strain where have you gone?
In-Reply-To: <m3bs8ngokq.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPCELCELAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Hi John,

are you still here? The emails I sent to you regarding the graphics you want
to use have been bouncing. Something about invalid return address.

Could you try sending me another email

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 03:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 02:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Website Update
Message-ID: <b0.2a4c8aff.2a7a55c1@aol.com>

 Which works better for you?

personally I prefer having all the data next to the map, rather than having 
the map expand away from it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 03:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 02:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <158.11c679eb.2a7a5fd1@aol.com>

 >> too, in a capital ship only the bridge crew has any
 >> view of the slaughter taking place, and the captain 
 >>(assumedly an experienced and dedicated older 
 >> man) only has to control himself and them (they also
 >> being assumedly experienced and dedicated older 
 >> men).  
 >
 >Wrong, wrong, wrong.

echo.

>If half your friends get sucked
>out into space you know there screwed. Sure you might
>think only your section is being hit, but you are
>probably smarter than that.

well, usually by that time the ship is fried anyway.  mutiny all you want -- 
no-one will notice anymore.

>And whats with the all
>male bridge crew?

What's the matter?  You don't like guys?

>Today many western navies are
>getting more female sailors

Yeah, I've seen 'em.  True story:  two female reservists on the gallery deck, 
looking lost and bored and a little nervous.  One of 'em suddenly brightens, 
turns to the other and says, "Let's go to the ship's mall!"  The other lights 
up with happiness and they head for the ladder down to the store.  It was 
almost more than I could take.

>and Trav is supposed to
>be a non-sexist universe!

Traveller is fantasy.

>All he has to do is launch his missiles and run! He is
>only one ship of many. The odds are probably in favor
>of him surviving. It wasn't in the original post that
>casualties among the fighters has high.

Yes it was.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 03:57:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug  1 02:57:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <196.abe40d6.2a7a3514@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002601c23943$4e0f1ac0$6e09bd50@martinjd>

>  >They might want more choices besides Dreadnaughts.
>
> Show me your choices.  I'd love to see 'em.

Low-end ships so you can do all your jobs within your budget maybe? Patrol
ships and tankers and whatever you plan to escort the talkers with. The USN,
for example, has other ships than carriers or attack subs (whichever you
consider to be the capital ship). Most navies have some high-end combat
ships and low-end workhorses.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 04:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug  1 03:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <8d.1bfa1383.2a7a4253@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003b01c23943$a8f1b4c0$6e09bd50@martinjd>



> >The point of my video game comment was to illustrate that it's not
>  >unrealistic that fighter pilot skills might conceivably be learned from
>  >games.  I still believe that to be the case; you've certainly not
>  >demonstrated otherwise.
>
> I can't.  You lack the experience I might appeal to to do so.  For that
> matter, so do I -- I'm not a pilot.  But I've seen what works and what
> doesn't in a military.  But you haven't even seen that.

I play Tekken against my training partner quite a lot. But you know? We get
out fighting skills from hitting one another for real. Pushing buttons just
doesn't give the feedback. Or the blood and snot.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 04:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 03:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] juries
Message-ID: <108.15a4adbc.2a7a6208@aol.com>

 >I've got to say that I have very little confidence in the present U.S. legal
 >system. I don't mean in a political way. I just don't think that an
 >adversarial system is all that good for determining guilt.

It's about as good as you'll get.

>Amateur juries
>seem to me to be ill equipped to handle many kinds of cases.

True.  And irrelevant to why they exist.  Juries aren't meant to be 
professional, quite the opposite.  Juries are meant to be a last and final 
check and balance against governmental power over individual citizens.  The 
government can't put anyone in jail unless they can get a bunch of amateur 
citizens to agree.  It's preferable to the alternative.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 04:08:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug  1 03:08:04 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <19e.638001c.2a7a328e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <005201c23944$b5f3ac40$6e09bd50@martinjd>



> >Just turning to the first page of world listings in GT:Rim of Fire, I
>  >see that Darrukesh has 8.2 billion sophonts.  Note that a capital ship
>  >can in theory do quite a handy job on a planet's surface, if desired.
>  >Now, as Grand Admiral of the Darrukesh fleet, would you expend
>  >1.22e-6% of your world's population to prevent that from occuring?
>
> You are discussing survival situations.  The original post concerned an
> ordinary standard tactic to be employed every time "if the navy can
tolerate
> the losses".
> They won't.

Damn right they won't. I chaired this year's Naval Force Protection
convention at the Hatton. One of the speakers was demonstrating BULLFIGHTER,
an advanced decoy system. One point he made was that this system makes more
missiles miss your ship, but often by a smaller margin than older offboard
countermeasures. This was considered entirely acceptable, despite the
(small)  risk that a decoyed missile might still hit another part of the
ship - by accident.

In the cold analysis of the conference room, the assembled personnel (from a
rear-admiral down) agreed that a greater proportion of missiles decoyed was
a very good thing because, as someone put it: surviving to carry out your
mission is necessary. Surviving to do it again is good. But surviving to go
home and collect the medals is what every sailor wants. And he wants to KNOW
that measures have been taken to ensure he will. In almost all situations,
force survivability is necessary to morale.

IE Units will NOT enter routine combat situations where they know they will
be massacred.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 04:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug  1 03:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <193.ac0a39b.2a7a20cf@aol.com>
Message-ID: <007201c23945$6b27eae0$6e09bd50@martinjd>

> >Try the loss rates for some of the RAF's 1000 bomber night attacks,
>  >then. Over 100 bombers in a night wasn't exceptional (IIRC some were
>  >near the 200 mark) and while that rate was unsustainable it wasn't for
>  >lack of volunteers, but because aircraft take time to make and crews
>  >take time to train.
>
> Imminent threats to national survival, of course, change casualty rate
> acceptance.  But the original subject was hundreds of fighter pilots for
the
> one or two lucky shots to kill a capital ship as a standard by-the-book
> tactic.  Never happen.

Besides, bomber crews did so many missions and then OUT. Your odds of
getting killed on any one of those missions were relatively small, but they
stacked up. However, you *knew* you'd probably get out before your number
came up. Whether it was true or not is another matter, but you knew.... if
the odds had been 50% chance of death per mission, and you'll keep on being
sent in again and again, well...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 04:21:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 03:21:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Acceptable losses
Message-ID: <18e.baee50e.2a7a654a@aol.com>

 >I think the idea is to look at new weapons and technology with the idea that
 >standard concepts from the last well may no longer apply.  Certainly, it is
 >impossible to anticipate change.

It is if you are the one driving it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 04:22:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 03:22:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
In-Reply-To: <20020731190152.7587.68152.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020731190152.7587.68152.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <mh2ikusl9irreg7c1m598n5h868l8saqmo@4ax.com>

On Wed, 31 Jul 2002 12:01:52 -0700, "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
wrote:

>WriteFool says

>>From the standpoint of pure economic and management 
>>efficiency I would have to agree, but on the other hand by 
>>creating the traditions and institutional memory of never 
>>giving up on a case and instilling that in to each 
>>generation of policefolk, it might help foster a certain 
>>determination as well as giving some comfort to victims' 
>>families that everything can and will be done and 
>>their losses and justice will not be forgotten.

>I would imagine that such perseverance, or lack thereof, 
>varies from planet to planet across the Imperium.  While they 
>might do things like this on, say, Regina, who can say how 
>they run things - even at the Imperial capital.

>In Washington, D.C., the homicide department is in complete 
>shambles.  I sometimes wonder if the powers that be intend 
>for it to be so.  Cases are lost, forgotten, misplaced...

>And the coroner's office is a complete joke.  It's a sore 
>point for the residents, but nothing, I repeat, nothing has 
>been done to remedy the situation.  

It would be unprofessional of me to comment on how the City of Washington
has mismanaged its police force - and in fact most municipal agencies - by
placing political correctness above professionalism and qualification, so I
will not make any such comments - including not commenting on how a
Washington police officer can be hired with felony convictions on his/her
record, provided that none were more recent than ten years ago at the time
of application.

Nor will I criticize the voters of that city for being stupid enough to
re-elect as mayor a convicted drug dealer, and then expect the tone of the
city to be anything other than what it is.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 05:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 04:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <20020801043903.8532.97422.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020801043903.8532.97422.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <av4ikugatpklat65etuddk08afchu3ve4e@4ax.com>

On Wed, 31 Jul 2002 21:39:03 -0700, "Paul Kerby" <ybrekp@mtco.com> wrote:

>Painted on the wall of the mess hall of the mess hall of the 2nd Armored
>Division(FWD) in Garlstedt Germany...

>"The purpose of the American soldier is not to die for his country, but
>to make the other bastards die for his."  George S. Patton 

And Patton got it wrong, at that - the purpose of the American soldier is
to _severely_maim_ the other bastards.  If you kill him, they can just
leave the body until it's safe to come get it and give it a burial.

If you just maim him, they have to devote manpower and resources to getting
him out of the line of fire, and trying to put him back together.  Which
means less that they can throw at you.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 05:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  1 04:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <200208011139.LVF00463@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>From: Flykiller@aol.com  
>Subject: Re: [TML] sword vs shotgun  
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
> >the best, and I mean the best, adventures are those that 
> >are "two party" adventures - one party of players against 
> >another.  The referee can never buy or write a one-party 
> >adventure that is as tense, hilarious, or as emotional as 
> >a "two party".
> >
> >Especially if the people in both parties know each other 
as 
> >gamers.  The referee doesn't have to do all of the 
thinking 
> >for one side anymore.
>
>(mental eyes opening wide as possibilities come into view)  
Now that _is_ a 
>good idea.  Has this been around for a while and I've missed 
it, or is it 
>something your group came up with?

It's an old idea.  And, it's a very good way to deal with 
those in the playing group who want to be sociopaths.  The 
referee doesn't have to kill them - the other party can try 
their best.  In my case, however, it came out even more often 
than not - being the "good" party doesn't make you 
bulletproof.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 05:45:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Thu Aug  1 04:45:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Website Update
Message-ID: <memo.512928@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <959hkuk7om6pvavlofnoevvto9cvuejv20@4ax.com>
Greetings dear hearts, especially Eris.

It's quite nice. The main sub-sector charts come out nicely, on a 17" 
monitor, might wrap awkwardly on a smaller one.

Devonia - overflows sideways - this seems to be due to the main table 
being set at width="123%" quite unnecessarily. The cells inside are set to 
a total of 100%, and the actual size of the image used would fit (at least 
on the 17" monitor).

You also might want to check the 'Body' tag, put in some elements to 
control colours, etc. Adding in that background from the sub-sector pages 
would be nice too.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 05:46:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  1 04:46:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <200208011145.LVF00804@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Flykiller says
>Yeah, I've seen 'em.  True story:  two female reservists on 
>the gallery deck, looking lost and bored and a little 
>nervous.  One of 'em suddenly brightens, turns to the other 
>and says, "Let's go to the ship's mall!"  The other lights 
>up with happiness and they head for the ladder down to the 
>store.  It was almost more than I could take.
>

I remember doing OPFOR against a Pershing missile platoon.  I 
distinctly remember a 6 foot female soldier and her shorter 
female AG running UP a 400 ft hill with an M-60 to try and 
get around on my left.  Fast, and with some sense of what she 
was doing.  I couldn't get a clear sight picture, and as I 
estimated she was reaching the top of the hill off to my 
left, I displaced, along with my friends.

Turns out she was from the motor pool.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 05:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Thu Aug  1 04:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Kit (as our British friends say)
In-Reply-To: <d4.1b055146.2a7a030a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020801115445.5089.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>

--- GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> 
> One of my favorite bits of reading is a papyrus
> detailing the pay record of a 
> Roman soldier in Egypt ca. 250 AD There are
> deductions for uniform and 
> equipment, mandatory deposit to the unit savings
> bank, contributions to the 
> burial fund (insurance) and the unit Saturnalia
> feast (held around the same 
> time as Christmas), and stoppages to pay for a wine
> bar demolished in the 
> course of a brawl. Every soldier I have ever shown
> it to marvels at the line 
> on the bottom:
> 
> "Copy 2 of 3, for unit archives"
> 
> LKW
> 
  >>
  OMG!!!!! The, the, the......[sigh]......

    MACessna
  >>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 05:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 04:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <1742d8175093.1750931742d8@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 11:41 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] warship optimization in traveller

> From: Flykiller@aol.com
> 
>     "All ships have a large internal cargo capacity enabling them 
> to 
> operate unsupported for up to 10 months.  In addition each fleet task
> force has accompanying supply vessels (with cargo sufficient to 
> completely 
> restock each vessel including themselves),..."
> 
> 
> Sir,
> 
>     What supply rules are you using and where did you find them?
> 
>     "...hospital ships,..."
> 
>     How do you design hospital ships?  How much does a surgical 
> suite 
> displace and how many do you need?  What about ICU berths?  How 
> much in 
> specialized stores will these ships need?

For JTAS subscribers, the recently-completed starship design contest 
(Contest #10) had some excellent hospital ships, albeit mostly using 
design sequences other than HG2.  Note, though, that the winning design 
(not mine, sad to say) was built using HG2.

<<snip>>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 06:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Houghton)
Date: Thu Aug  1 05:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
In-Reply-To: <mh2ikusl9irreg7c1m598n5h868l8saqmo@4ax.com>
References: <20020731190152.7587.68152.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <mh2ikusl9irreg7c1m598n5h868l8saqmo@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020801120705.GA5092@saltmine.radix.net>

Howdy!

On Thu, Aug 01, 2002 at 06:20:46AM -0400, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Jul 2002 12:01:52 -0700, "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
> wrote:
[snip]
> 
> >And the coroner's office is a complete joke.  It's a sore 
> >point for the residents, but nothing, I repeat, nothing has 
> >been done to remedy the situation.  
> 
> It would be unprofessional of me to comment on how the City of Washington
> has mismanaged its police force - and in fact most municipal agencies - by
> placing political correctness above professionalism and qualification, so I
> will not make any such comments - including not commenting on how a
> Washington police officer can be hired with felony convictions on his/her
> record, provided that none were more recent than ten years ago at the time
> of application.

Of course, since I do not work for a police department, there is no
professional courtesy to impede me from agreeing wholeheartedly.
> 
> Nor will I criticize the voters of that city for being stupid enough to
> re-elect as mayor a convicted drug dealer, and then expect the tone of the
> city to be anything other than what it is.
> 

Actually, Barry was not convicted of dealing, just possession ('Bitch
set me up!').

...and then have a mayor who can't manage to have competent and honest
people gather 2500 _valid_ signatures of _real residents_ to get his 
name on the primary ballot...

I may have the governmental entities wrong, but the entity that certified
the petitions to (I think) the board of elections (or whatever they call
it) said that hizonner had enough signatures even after they had tossed
a bunch of petitions for fraud (with about 10000 signatures presented).
The board refused to accept that certification because of the great
number of the remainder that were (ostensibly) gathered by the Bishops,
who each were noted to have provided a large number of the petitions 
that had been tossed for fraudulent signatures. Now hizonner is almost
certain to be stuck running a write-in campaign for the primary.

I'll note that that at the same time DC was reelecting a druggie, the
Virginia GOP was trying to get a liar and oathbreaker elected to the
senate (Ollie North, found guilty by a jury of his peers of a felony --
lying to Congress), and the voters in Maryland rejected a bid by a
convicted former state assemblyman for reelection.

obTrav: well...a political campaign anywhere would be livened up by
a little controversy...or a politician running for reelection from his
jail cell... 

yours,
Michael
-- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 06:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Brian Caball)
Date: Thu Aug  1 05:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Kit (as our British friends say)
In-Reply-To: <20020801115445.5089.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020801115445.5089.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <02080113001703.22132@avlendris>

> > "Copy 2 of 3, for unit archives"
>   OMG!!!!! The, the, the......[sigh]......

This seems to be flying right over my head... is that what the modern 
equivalents also say or something?

-Brian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 06:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Thu Aug  1 05:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <F63cEcLsXJB7oDaSeXn000225a2@hotmail.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote, in many posts:
>You are discussing survival situations.  The original post
>concerned an ordinary standard tactic to be employed every time
>"if the navy can tolerate the losses". They won't.

What's the difference, considering what a starfleet can
do, between "ordinary" situations and "survival" situations?
If two main fleets are banging heads for real, there *will*
be planetary populations (the ownership of, if not the lives
of) at stake.

>Sure.  I'll play you -- if you can handle it.

This is a paper-and-pencil *game* we are talking about.
"Handling it" is just a matter of whether I choose to play
or not.  This ain't full-contact team biathalon here.

>  >Rock, Paper, Scissors.  Your calculations don't go far enough.
>
>Could be.  Let's find out.  Show me.  Can you handle it?

It amuses me far more to watch you beg.

>Tonnages!  I want tonnages!  And I want to know every reason
>why you put in what you did and left out what you did.

Like this, for example.

>Show me your choices.  I'd love to see 'em.

My choice is to let someone else put up with you during
your education.

>I really do want to hear from your superior wisdom.

My "superior wisdom" tells me to sit back and chuckle at
you for a while.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 06:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 05:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
Message-ID: <20020801123223.5AA10451A@mo130uhou.palm.net>

Rob Davenport <rgd@infinet.com> wrote:
>	Ed Wood's "Starship Troopers" 

Kenji Schwartz gave a good rant compairing ST to an Ed Wood movie.
You can find it on my SciFi sig quote page. 


>-- 
>Rob Davenport -- rgd at infinet dot com 
>More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases: 
> Spero nos familiares mansuros. 
> I hope we'll still be friends. 

----------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 07:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Thu Aug  1 06:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Warships
In-Reply-To: <15b.11cdff0f.2a79e836@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D49DB0E.15430.8A1F01@localhost>

On 31 Jul 2002, at 21:26, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> Very good, and I mostly agree.  But please post a tonnage allocation for such
> an interface combat ship.  I'd love to see what you mean by "designed for it"

Well here's one I knocked up quickly. Doubtless its far from optimal, but 
you'll get the idea.

Ship: Terror
Class: Erebus
Type: Bomb Ketch
Architect: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
Tech Level: 15

USP
         BK-H9059J3-L59005-55545-0 MCr 5,624.770 8 KTons
Bat Bear             1   1 15118   Crew: 110
Bat                  1   1 15118   TL: 15

Cargo: 170 Fuel: 720.000 EP: 720 Agility: 5 Shipboard Security Detail: 8 
Marines: 25 Drop Capsules: 140
Craft: 2 x 50T Cutters
Fuel Treatment: On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/9fib Computer 1 x Bridge 1 x Factor 9 Meson Screen

Architects Fee: MCr 56.048   Cost in Quantity: MCr 4,503.816


Detailed Description

HULL
8,000.000 tons standard, 112,000.000 cubic meters, Buffered Planetoid 
Configuration

CREW
15 Officers, 70 Ratings, 25 Marines

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 5G Manuever, Power plant-9, 720.000 EP, Agility 5

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/9fib Computer
1 Backup Bridge, 1 Model/9fib Backup Computer

HARDPOINTS
3 50-ton bays, 50 Hardpoints

ARMAMENT
1 50-ton Meson Bay (Factor-4), 1 50-ton Particle Accelerator Bay (Factor-
5), 40 Triple Missile Turrets organised into 8 Batteries (Factor-5), 3 Triple 
Beam Laser Turrets organised into 1 Battery (Factor-5), 5 Dual Fusion Gun 
Turrets organised into 5 Batteries (Factor-5)

DEFENCES
1 50-ton Repulsor Bay (Factor-5), 2 Triple Sandcaster Turrets organised 
into 1 Battery (Factor-5), Meson Screen (Factor-9), Armoured Hull (Factor-
20)
1 Meson Screen Backup (Factor-9)

CRAFT
2 50.000 ton Cutters (Crew of 1, Cost of MCr 10.000)

FUEL
720.000 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
No Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
58 Staterooms, 140 Drop Capsule Launchers, 170 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
1 Missile Magazine (100.000 tons, Crew 0, Cost MCr 10.000)

COST
MCr 5,660.818 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 56.048), MCr 4,483.816 
in Quantity, plus MCr 20.000 of Carried Craft

CONSTRUCTION TIME
156 Weeks Singly, 125 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
Important factors
1) Planetary assaults are planned and this ship is not intended for line of 
battle work therefore a rider is optimal, and endurance functions (eg 
supplies, reloads etc) can be moved to the tender.
2) The buffered planetoid configuration allows sufficent armour to render the 
vessel immune to all but meson fire and gives good protection against 
meson fire
3) Since the ship is operating in orbit, minimal agility is acceptable
4) The jump capsules allow rapid evacuation and recovery by friendly 
vessels
5) Since the ships is immune to missile fire due to the heavy armour, 
nuclear dampers are unneccessary
6) The backup meson screen, computer and bridge extend the surviability
7) The primary armarment of missiles allows a wide range of deadfall 
weaponry
8) The single PA is for use against vacuum targets

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 07:07:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 06:07:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Published Trav Authors
Message-ID: <1b62a01b63e3.1b63e31b62a0@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 11:56 am
Subject: Re: [TML] Published Trav Authors

> At 12:21 PM 7/30/2002 +1000, you wrote:
> >Yahhhhhh! The Citizens of the Imperium website
> >accepted my patron encounter. So now I am being
> >published (online) by an official Trav lisencee. Where
> >do I send away for my offcial Trav Authors flying
> >scarf and tweed jacket set? ;P I can also get in all
> >the really classy bars! 
> 
> Go to the corner of Third and Main (doesn't matter in what city.)  
> Look for
> a man wearing a black "I Wished For GDSM And All I Got Was This 
> Lousy +3
> T-Shirt" Nethack shirt.  If he is eating pepperoni pizza, it is 
> safe to
> approach.  Say "I understand the penguins are wintering in St 
> Moritz."  He
> will say "No, it is to touristy.  They prefer Telluride."  Your 
> final sign
> will be to tug on your right earlobe and say "Penguins? I meant 
> the Royal
> Family. It is hard to tell them apart. Or maybe the Osbournes."

Hmmm.  They must have changed the recognition codes again.  At least, 
that's not the recognition sequence I was given after _101 
Corporations_ was published.  Sadly, I was mobilized for Sinai before I 
could be formally initiated.  Perhaps next year, ideally at BayCon 
(assuming I'm not mobilized yet again) :-(.

At least I won't have to take Greyhound from Baton Rouge for my next 
BayCon, since my Bosnia earnings allowed me to buy a used minivan and 
set it up as a one-man RV....
> 
> If this is carried out to the agent's satisfaction, you will be 
> drugged,blindfolded, and taken to the Traveller Writers' Secret 
> UndergroundHeadquarters.  There, you will be prepared for 
> initiation.  Please let the
> nice doctors know your blood type *before* the test of the Pit of 
> RabidWeasels and Equally Rabid Editors.

Ah, but that takes all the challenge out of it.

<<snip>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 07:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn Crawford)
Date: Thu Aug  1 06:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Starship Troopers
Message-ID: <F10888MMAv7Nf4086xB00003354@hotmail.com>

George Lucas' Starship Troopers

Wesa powah infantree gonna die?

Far be it from me to question your stupid civilisation or dumb customs...
S. Fry


_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 07:40:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Thu Aug  1 06:40:04 2002
Subject: N-dimensional law-levels (was Re: [TML] sword vs shotgun)
In-Reply-To: <200207311911.13195.red@archonet.com>
Message-ID: <000001c23961$00f0b0a0$6501a8c0@Darla>

DGP's World Builder's handbook detailed law levels into sub-levels for
Weapons, Trade, Criminal Law, Civil Law and Personal Freedom, which
seems like a reasonable breakdown.

Perhaps the TAS publications use weapons as the published law level so
travelers can have an idea about what they can strap up with before they
hit dirt...

TWB



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 09:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Aug  1 08:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <F137of0aYhHnKZ1nSIz0000ee76@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     The increasingly goofy warship optimization thread sent me off waddling 
the 'Net courtesy of Google.  A short search pulled up a few interesting 
facts regarding to times during WW2 in which aircraft, and their flight 
crews, were "traded" for warships.

Midway - We all know this story; torpedo squadrons pressing home futile 
attack after attack, drawing Japanese attention towards sea level and away 
from the arriving dive bombers in an unplanned, but wildly successful, 
tactic.
     The three squadrons involved flew Devastators, NOT Swordfish as earlier 
posted.  The incrediably elderly Swordfish biplane belonged the RAF's Fleet 
Air Arm (the RN couldn't design or "own" its embarked aircraft!  D'oh!).  
The USN's Devastators had been in service ~7 years and was an obselescent 
design too, although not as bad as the Swordfish(1).
     The three squadrons involved were; VT-3, flown from USS Yorktown, VT-6, 
flown from USS Enterprise, and VT-8 flown from USS Hornet.
     Losses are as follows:
VT-3, 10 of 12 aircraft, 20 of 24 men
VT-6, 10 of 14 aircraft, 20 of 28 men
VT-8, 15 of 15 aircraft, 29 of 30 men
     for a total of:
      35 aircraft and 69 men

     In "return", the USN sank three IJN carriers (before you squawk, please 
note the fourth IJN carrier lost was sunk later in the day and not during 
this specific airstrike).  Let's call it ~10 aircraft and ~20 men per 
warship destroyed.
     Midway was a special case; the IJN needed to be stopped, the USN was 
weak, Midway, Pearl, and ultimately the West Coast needed to be defended, so 
the Americans probably employed somewhat desperate tactics or weren't too 
squeamish about losses as long as the battle was won.
     Now let's look at a not so desperate situation.

The IJN Yamato - The USMC and USA are fighting on Okinawa and the USN is 
close offshore fighting too.  Kamikazes are making life rather difficult for 
the USN, but they're holding their own.  Then the largest kamikaze of them 
all is sent along, the Yamato.
     On 7 APR 1945, USN carriers send 400 aircraft at the Yamato to prevent 
her from arriving at Okinawa.  They lose 10 aircraft and 12 men sending her 
to the bottom, roughly comparable to the numbers it took to sink an IJN CV 
at Midway.  Was this "sacrifice" really necessary?  Would the Yamato have 
reached Okinawa and interfered with the fighting there?
     No.
     The USN had already pulled SIX BBs off the gunline, plus the usual 
assortment of escorting CAs and DDs, to tackle the Yamato if she made it 
through the airstrikes.  Yamato was going to be sunk one way or the other, 
either via massed airstrikes or an extremely one-sided surface engagement.
     So why did the USN "waste" 10 planes and 12 men to sink her, when the 
battleline could have done the job?  Because, the airstrikes were cheaper.  
The US casulties and damage incurred in a gun duel with the Yamato would 
have been far greater than 12 men and the costs of 10 planes.
     When the conditions are right and the options are limited, militaries 
will make these sort of trades all the time.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 09:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 08:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <e6.2be0ca41.2a7a3051@aol.com>
References: <e6.2be0ca41.2a7a3051@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3ptx2twnf.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
>
> But there is a big difference between what you are saying and what
> was implied in the original post.

There's a big difference between what you are inferring and what the
original post stated.  It simply stated, IIRC, that it might take 100
fighters to eliminate a capital ship.  It implied, again IIRC, nothing
about the size of the wave which would lose the 100.

> I'll say again regarding the original post: any pack of pilots that
> would volunteer to die by the hundreds to kill one capital ship as a
> regular ordinary tactic will all be at level 0.  There will be no
> experienced person to train or lead them.

I'll say again: it depends on the size of the wave.  How large were
the British waves in WWII when 100-200 a night were lost?  How large
might a Traveller wave be?  If it's 105, you may be right.  If it's
13,000 you're very probably wrong.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
With the Smart Ship's reputation so far, they will have to build a bloody
big trebuchet for the damn thing to be useful as a weapon.
                                         --Derry Hamilton

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:02:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:02:05 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <e6.2be0ca41.2a7a3051@aol.com>
References: <e6.2be0ca41.2a7a3051@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3ptx2twnf.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
>
> But there is a big difference between what you are saying and what
> was implied in the original post.

There's a big difference between what you are inferring and what the
original post stated.  It simply stated, IIRC, that it might take 100
fighters to eliminate a capital ship.  It implied, again IIRC, nothing
about the size of the wave which would lose the 100.

> I'll say again regarding the original post: any pack of pilots that
> would volunteer to die by the hundreds to kill one capital ship as a
> regular ordinary tactic will all be at level 0.  There will be no
> experienced person to train or lead them.

I'll say again: it depends on the size of the wave.  How large were
the British waves in WWII when 100-200 a night were lost?  How large
might a Traveller wave be?  If it's 105, you may be right.  If it's
13,000 you're very probably wrong.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
With the Smart Ship's reputation so far, they will have to build a bloody
big trebuchet for the damn thing to be useful as a weapon.
                                         --Derry Hamilton

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:02:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:02:39 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <bf.241eecb7.2a7a4368@aol.com>
References: <bf.241eecb7.2a7a4368@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3lm7qtwhm.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
> 
> Yes, with a huge Japanese fleet threatening their homeland and only
> them standing between the yellow peril and their families.  It was
> not, however, a standard tactic, employed "because they'll tolerate
> it".

You keep on making a distinction between `fighting for survival' and
`standard tactics.'  I get the impression that you view the Frontier
Wars as something like our involvement in Panama or Afghanistan (or
Nicaragua, Cuba, Vietnam, Korea &c.) and unlike our involvment in,
say, WWII.  I strenously disagree.  To an Imperial world, the thought
of being captured by the Zhodani is every bit as bad as being captured
by the Japanese was to a Hawaiian.  Sure, the fellows from the Vegan
polity might not care as much, but the soldiers, pilots &c. from the
worlds in question very much _would_.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I love the way Microsoft follows standards.  In much the same manner
that fish follow migrating caribou.                   --Paul Tomblin

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:03:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:03:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Starship Troopers
In-Reply-To: <F10888MMAv7Nf4086xB00003354@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020801154829.54251.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>

Then there's

Ernest Joins the Federation
  Starring Ernest P Whorrel as Johnny "Ernest" Rico

[shudder]


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:04:03 2002
Subject: Service Pay ( [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CC3@USCHM203>

>Robert Uhl wrote:

> "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> writes:
> Huh,  I thought that was only officers.  That just seems wrong to me
> (not that you're wrong; that they're wrong to do it that way).  Did
> y'all have to pay for your foods & cooks too?

Food was free, and I have to be honest, it was good food everywhere I was
stationed. Not restaurant quality, but better than the high school
cafeteria.


Tod L Glenn wrote:

>What service and when?  When I went through The Ft. Benning school for boys
>(Summer 1980), we were paid in cash monthly.  $600 dollars, as I recall.
>Accountable property was just that.  It was signed out to you, and you were
>expected to sign it back in.  Anything missing or damaged, you paid for.

Tod,
	USMC, 1986. Our pay was close to $800 a month. Never knew anyone who
lost a rifle, but people would lose web gear, canteens, and such. 
	Sometimes guys were tempted to "lose" some items just so they could
have them at home when they got out. NO WEAPONS!!! They don't just write
that off. There WILL be an investigation, and you'll get 20 years in
Leavenworth. Not only that, but any Marine, however good friends you are,
would dissuade you or turn you in. At least I hope they would.
	Mostly it was small stuff like web gear and magazine holders.
Perhaps a flak jacket or gas mask. As it is, you can pick all that stuff up
at surplus stores (though at a MUCH higher cost).
	I do know a guy from Spartanburg, SC who took home an empty Dragon
Tube, but it still had the end caps. Last I heard he mounted it above his
fireplace.
	For the record, they don't let you take used LAW tubes, spent brass,
or training grenades home. I tried to take some spent 40mm Grenade
cartridges home that we used as ashtrays, and they confiscated them at the
airport.

	ObTrav, imagine having your pay docked for an FGMP-15? Hope you
planned on staying in for 5 terms!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:04:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:04:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <8d.1bfa1383.2a7a4253@aol.com>
References: <8d.1bfa1383.2a7a4253@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3heietvzo.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
>
> > The point of my video game comment was to illustrate that it's not
> > unrealistic that fighter pilot skills might conceivably be learned
> > from games.  I still believe that to be the case; you've certainly
> > not demonstrated otherwise.
> 
> Try contacting a real fighter pilot sometime.  Ask him if fighter
> pilot skills might be learned from sophisticated games.

Sure, not now: a video game, even a military simulator, is simply not
possible of fully-simulating flight, combat &c.  But thousands of
years in the future that's not an issue.  If you can damp inertia and
fake gravity, you can fake the motions and sensations of combat.  If
you can broadcast in 3D, you can generate a photo-realistic world
outside the phony cockpit windows.  The only thing you _cannot_
simulate is the fear of death--and real military training cannot AFAIK
do that either; only actual flight time can do that.

> Ask your local recruiter--maybe he has a pilot come in once in a
> while to help him recruit.  Or heck, you could even call a nearby
> AFB or naval base, contact the liaison, and ask to speak to a pilot
> for ten minutes or so.  But it would be better if you can look him
> in the eye as he talks to you.

You seem to think that I am foolish enough to believe that a modern
video game can teach flight skills.  I'm not: I'm writing about
`games' thousands of years in the future.

How about you do the reverse: go to a computer scientist or computer
engineer.  Ask him if, assuming inertial damping, artifical gravity
and photo-realistic three-dimension and two thousand years of Moore's
Law, computers will be able to completely simulate a flight and
combat.  Look him in the eye when you do so.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
My word processor was written by Stanford Professor Donald Knuth.  Who
wrote yours?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:05:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:05:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <F228Wv2vyWb6cxHKx7000010140@hotmail.com>

     "...although not as bad as the Swordfish(1)."


Ladies and Gentlemen,

     Please excuse me, I forgot to add the footnote.


(1) - The Swordfishs' very obs0lescence may have actually helped it survive 
in battle.  A most likely apophrycal story from the Bismarck saga has the 
German AA fire missing the attacking Swordfish because the aircraft were 
moving too SLOW, the AA crews led their targets by too much.  Swordfish made 
their torpedo runs at ~90 mph and weather conditions could drop that speed 
even further.
     The Swordfish may been viwed as a joke by other navies, it still got 
the job done at Taranto and with the Bismarck however.


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:05:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:05:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <003b01c23943$a8f1b4c0$6e09bd50@martinjd>
References: <8d.1bfa1383.2a7a4253@aol.com>
 <003b01c23943$a8f1b4c0$6e09bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <m3d6t2tvro.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> writes:
> 
> I play Tekken against my training partner quite a lot.  But you
> know?  We get out fighting skills from hitting one another for real.
> Pushing buttons just doesn't give the feedback.  Or the blood and
> snot.

Piloting is not fighting--it's driving a vehicle.  Given a real
cockpit with the controls connected to a computer, given a
photorealistic 3D display, given inertia simulators and artificial
gravity (same thing?  I dunno.), given a computer roughly
6.14250342873998e234 as powerful as a modern August 2002 computer, you
_could_ accurately simulate a flight, and accurately simulate
anti-aircraft measures, and accurately simulate birds, and accurately
simulate explosions nearby (and far away, for that matter), and
accurately simulate weather, and accurately simulate the stresses of
flying &c. &c. &c.

The only reasonable objections are that inertial simulation and
artificial grav are impossible, that photorealistic 3D displays are
impossible or that Moore's Law will not hold up for two thousand
years.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Contrary to popular opinion there often is a right answer.
            --Carter & Sanger, Thinking about Programming

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:06:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:06:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <000501c2392c$7b7b0800$6f7ba8c0@kenneith93j41k>
References: <f3.1ed9f0cb.2a7a396a@aol.com>
 <000501c2392c$7b7b0800$6f7ba8c0@kenneith93j41k>
Message-ID: <m38z3qtvlw.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Joseph Elric Smith Mormon minion of Arioch" <kruch7@cox.net> writes:
>
> That is the whole argument of detant, that the cost would be too
> high if both sides went to war.

Which doesn't work, if one side has a significantly different cost
model than the other.  Acc. to my father, the Russians were never
nearly as worried about nuclear war as we were.  The reason?  They can
march to Europe.

Note I don't say they were unworried; simply that the leadership did
not view it as the completely and utterly unmitigated disaster that
ours did.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`How do you explain bikini underwear and chocolate 
 sprinkles pressed between pages 102 and 103 of the 
 Canterbury Tales?  It must have been quite an evening.'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:06:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:06:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CC5@USCHM203>

James Ramsay wrote:
 Re:"but a fighter pilot is the entire crew" 

>All he has to do is launch his missiles and run! He is
>only one ship of many. The odds are probably in favor
>of him surviving.

	I don't know if my logic was unsound, but this is one of the reasons
I signed up for infantry rather than armor or even the air wing. And why I
never wanted to be on a ship (let alone a sub).
As deadly as it is for infantry during a battle, being one of many still
makes me feel like less of a target than being in a tank. Years later I have
read many accounts of WWII infantry veterans who did not want to be anywhere
near a tank or heavy weapon because they knew it was going to draw attention
and fire.
	It's easier to pop off a few rounds and squeeze my 170 lbs (many
years ago) behind cover than it is to hide a tank or field gun after firing.
Hell, I can disappear in a small clump of bushes if I have to.
	Statistically, it might not be as safe. I'm sure someone can come up
with figures. Regardless, psychologically it seems to make sense. I imagine
fighter pilots in large squadrons feel less exposed as well. Safety in
numbers and all that. Perception over reality, perhaps, but I bet that,
given the choice of crossing a river under fire on a large 200 man barge or
20 ten man boats, most people would take the latter.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] juries
In-Reply-To: <108.15a4adbc.2a7a6208@aol.com>
References: <108.15a4adbc.2a7a6208@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m34reetvfp.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
> 
> > Amateur juries seem to me to be ill equipped to handle many kinds
> > of cases.
> 
> True.  And irrelevant to why they exist.  Juries aren't meant to be 
> professional, quite the opposite.  Juries are meant to be a last and final 
> check and balance against governmental power over individual citizens.  The 
> government can't put anyone in jail unless they can get a bunch of amateur 
> citizens to agree.  It's preferable to the alternative.

And here I'll agree with you whole-heartedly.  Juries are _supposed_
to give every benefit of the doubt to the accused.  Hence the jury of
one's peers (which I think could arguably be extended to mean race,
sex and class).  Hence the myriad of protections for the accused.
hence the rules on evidence-gathering.  All so that, once that guilty
verdict is read, we can _believe_ it and act accordingly, that is
deprive the convicted man of life, liberty or property as punishment.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
You see, in the post-televisual world we read.  --John Gipson

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:07:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Strain)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:07:39 2002
Subject: [TML] John Strain where have you gone? (Antony Farrell)
References: <20020801134003.15380.76944.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <01fd01c23976$2bdb1f20$a03a3140@dixienet.com>

ARGGGg, shoot! I am not suprised one bit - I have had the highest 'bounce'
rate this past month ever! ~~ John

email  missingjn@dixie-net.com      strain_john@hotmail.com
 strainjohn@yahoo.com     strain_john@ivillage.com     pick one...or try
them all.

> From: "Antony Farrell"  Subject: [TML] John Strain where have you gone?
> are you still here? The emails I sent to you regarding the graphics you
want
> to use have been bouncing. Something about invalid return address.
> Could you try sending me another email   Antony



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:09:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:09:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Acceptable losses
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CC8@USCHM203>

>Flykiller wrote:

>I read somewhere that during the War Between the States the Northern armies

>would place new recruits in entirely new brigades, which made them
>unreliable 
>at first, while the Southern armies would install their new recruits in 
>established armies, which steadied their new recruits greatly.

Not exactly relevant, but mention of the Civil War reminded me of what one
of my South Carolinian friends told me:

"You know what the difference was between a rich Yankee and a rich
Southerner? The rich Yankee paid someone to take his place in the army, and
the rich Southerner outfitted his own regiment."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:10:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:10:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <20020801122203.46aeed42cde04f34877f57ddbe49f2bf.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>     The three squadrons involved flew Devastators, NOT Swordfish as earlier 
>posted.  The incrediably elderly Swordfish biplane belonged the RAF's Fleet 
>Air Arm (the RN couldn't design or "own" its embarked aircraft!  D'oh!).  

Well, until just before World War 2.  Then it was the Royal NAVY's Fleet Air
Arm again, only after much struggle.  One of the less brilliant ideas of
Hugh Trenchard when he was creating the RAF, including both the Royal Flying
Corp and the RN's air arm.  

The design part is true, until World War Two.  Which also meant the Royal
Navy and the British aviation industry had lacked experience of designing
and building carrier-borne aircraft, which meant it took to near the end of
the war before the RN had a good indigenous (Plenty of American carrier
aircraft available.), dedicated carrier-borne aircraft (The Seafire did not
start life as a carrier aircraft.).

>The USN's Devastators had been in service ~7 years and was an obselescent 
>design too, although not as bad as the Swordfish(1).

The Swordfish was not bad....And for the role it was intended, it was
probably better then the TBD!  Which is a sad commentary on US naval
aviation more then anything else.

I would also nominate Operation PEDESTAL, the fighting around Crete, much of
the Mediterranean war, etc.

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

 My Sale List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
 My Want List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:11:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:11:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Acceptable losses
In-Reply-To: <m3bs8ngokq.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <20020731235711.7e8b877379fe414d85fbfc7414631d19.in@keywest.kennett.net>
 <20020731235711.7e8b877379fe414d85fbfc7414631d19.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801091513.4667c4d0@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:01 PM 7/31/2002 -0600, you wrote:

>No, you don't understand.  Every unit must have a Texan (known as
>Tex), a Brooklyner, a racist Southerner, an effete intellectual, a Jew
>and half-a-dozen Midwesterners.  At least, acc. to the war movies:-)

Been reading Ground Forces again?

(For those who don't have it (shame on you!) I included a pile of
sterotypical war-movie types, and how to build them.  The Opie, the
Get-Over Artist, Casanovas, Old Sergeants...)
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Embrace Fascism.    The uniforms look cool


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:12:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:12:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Con Jose the World SF Con any Travellers going?
In-Reply-To: <200208010315.g713FgD09733@sun.ebtech.net>
References: <005601c23562$877a46c0$810fbd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801092023.45176588@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:12 PM 7/31/2002 -500, you wrote:
>Hi I'll be at Con Jose working the Coffeeklatches
>
>Anyone else planning on attending?

I'll be there, working publications.

>Maybe we could get together over a meal to talk Traveller.

It would be fun.  May I suggest that anyone attending ConJose subscribe to
Travller in SF.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TravellerinSF/

So we can coordinate a meeting time and place.  If we want to do an actual
dinner, I need to know how many people are coming.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
- Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:12:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:12:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Kit (as our British friends say)
In-Reply-To: <d4.1b055146.2a7a030a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801092658.4c07ad3c@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:20 PM 7/31/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>One of my favorite bits of reading is a papyrus detailing the pay record
of a 
>Roman soldier in Egypt ca. 250 AD There are deductions for uniform and 
>equipment, mandatory deposit to the unit savings bank, contributions to the 
>burial fund (insurance) and the unit Saturnalia feast (held around the same 
>time as Christmas), and stoppages to pay for a wine bar demolished in the 
>course of a brawl. Every soldier I have ever shown it to marvels at the line 
>on the bottom:
>
>"Copy 2 of 3, for unit archives"

Good lord, a Roman LES?  (Leave and Earning Statement)  Just goes to show
why the Empire fell, they developed a military bureaucracy.

What is the Latin for Rear Echelon Mother-F**ker?
--

Duugirashir Irebamenagiin  gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
Inquisitor Maximus, Reformed Canon Church of Sylea


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:13:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:13:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Kit (as our British friends say)
In-Reply-To: <02080113001703.22132@avlendris>
References: <20020801115445.5089.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>
 <20020801115445.5089.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801092932.4517038c@pop.mindspring.com>

At 01:00 PM 8/1/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>
>> > "Copy 2 of 3, for unit archives"
>>   OMG!!!!! The, the, the......[sigh]......
>
>This seems to be flying right over my head... is that what the modern 
>equivalents also say or something?

The modern US Military has a form called the Leave and Earning Statement
(LES) that details your rank, pay received, and any deductions made such as
AUSA dues (Association of the US Army), insurance, and forfeiture of pay
due to Article 15 punishments.  There are several copies, one of which is
stored at the battalion-level in case there is a problem with your pay.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:13:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:13:51 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
In-Reply-To: <200207312007.LTZ05292@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801093246.4c070802@pop.mindspring.com>

At 04:07 PM 7/31/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>"Glenn M. Goffin" says
>>So, John, are you a sociopath in real life, or do you just 
>>play one in RPGs?
>
>In real life, the Army saw fit to conduct a psychological 
>evaluation, and on the commander's recommendation, I was sent 
>to sniper school.  Later, when I became a software 
>consultant...

Hey!  They gave me a pysch eval before I was assigned to sniper school!
Evidently, I was just sociopathic enough for their purposes...
-- 

Douglas E. Berry      gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"Well, thanks to the Internet, I'm now bored
 with sex." - Fry, Futurama

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:14:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:14:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Acceptable losses
In-Reply-To: <18e.baee50e.2a7a654a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801093629.477f1bde@pop.mindspring.com>

At 06:19 AM 8/1/2002 EDT, you wrote:
> >I think the idea is to look at new weapons and technology with the idea 
> >that standard concepts from the last well may no longer apply.  Certainly, 
> >it is impossible to anticipate change.
>
>It is if you are the one driving it.

Not really.  Sometimes, changes you intiate have consequences that you
can't predict.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:14:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:14:56 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <av4ikugatpklat65etuddk08afchu3ve4e@4ax.com>
References: <20020801043903.8532.97422.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <20020801043903.8532.97422.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801094055.44fff8cc@pop.mindspring.com>

At 06:58 AM 8/1/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>And Patton got it wrong, at that - the purpose of the American soldier is
>to _severely_maim_ the other bastards.  If you kill him, they can just
>leave the body until it's safe to come get it and give it a burial.
>
>If you just maim him, they have to devote manpower and resources to getting
>him out of the line of fire, and trying to put him back together.  Which
>means less that they can throw at you.

It is a violation of the laws of land warfare to intentionally shoot to
maim or injure an enemy combatant.  You are supposed to go for the kill.
This mainly applies to snipers, who have been known to wound enemy soldiers
as bait for rescue attempts.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:17:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:17:10 2002
Subject: Service Pay ( [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <2c231b2c59ae.2c59ae2c231b@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>
Date: Thursday, August 1, 2002 6:42 pm
Subject: Re: Service Pay ( [TML] warship optimization in traveller

<<snip>> 
> 
> Tod L Glenn wrote:
> 
> >What service and when?  When I went through The Ft. Benning 
> school for boys
> >(Summer 1980), we were paid in cash monthly.  $600 dollars, as I 
> recall.>Accountable property was just that.  It was signed out to 
> you, and you were
> >expected to sign it back in.  Anything missing or damaged, you 
> paid for.
> 

This practice goes a long way to explaining why captains go down with 
the ship.... ;-)

<<snip>>
> 
> 	ObTrav, imagine having your pay docked for an FGMP-15? Hope you
> planned on staying in for 5 terms!

I've always wanted to see the hand receipt for a _Tigress_....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <2d16412cfe49.2cfe492d1641@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Thursday, August 1, 2002 7:24 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships

<<snip>>
> 
> >The USN's Devastators had been in service ~7 years and was an 
> obselescent 
> >design too, although not as bad as the Swordfish(1).
> 
> The Swordfish was not bad....And for the role it was intended, it was
> probably better then the TBD!  Which is a sad commentary on US naval
> aviation more then anything else.

OTOH, the Stringbag was never sent into battle against carrier-based 
fighters.  The TBD pilots at Midway, meanwhile, had to try to survive 
without fighter cover against the A6M Zero.  Hardly a fair contest (of 
course, any military leader who tries to fight war _fairly_ isn't doing 
the job correctly).

<<snip>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:21:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:21:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Character Conversions
Message-ID: <20020801172052.47546.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>

Has anyone ever come up with a good character
conversion system?  I mean one that allows for
conversion to CT, MT, TNE, T4, GT, and T20.

I know that some of these are very similar (MT & T4),
but what about the others?

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Character Conversions
Message-ID: <2dbfaf2d6ae3.2d6ae32dbfaf@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com>
Date: Thursday, August 1, 2002 8:20 pm
Subject: [TML] Character Conversions

> Has anyone ever come up with a good character
> conversion system?  I mean one that allows for
> conversion to CT, MT, TNE, T4, GT, and T20.
> 
> I know that some of these are very similar (MT & T4),
> but what about the others?

CT, MT and T4 chargen rules are similar enough (at least if you use LBB 
4+ for your CT characters) that conversion is fairly straightforward.  
IIRC (I failed to pack my copy for shipment to Sinai), _Survival Margin_ 
includes notes on converting MT characters to TNE.  Similarly, the base 
GT rulebook includes conversion rules for most, if not all, previous 
Trav rulesets.  Someone else will have to answer about T20.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:31:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:31:05 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CC1@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801101615.43af8f6e@pop.mindspring.com>

At 05:48 PM 7/31/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>I assume the other veterans experienced this as well. I'm curious if you
>were as surprised as I was.

In the US Army of the early-mid 80s, all my basic issue was just that:
issued.  I was authorized four sets of BDUs, two pairs of boots, combat,
leather, etc..  I could always exchange a set that had become damaged or
worn for a new set.  Of course, I bought extra sets of BDUs so I had a
parade-ready issue set at all times. (The "field-gear" got stuffed in a car
trunk during command inspections.)

Things like our LBE, shelter halves, fart sacks and the like were issued at
the organizational level, and had to be turned in when we were transfered,
which was a bitch and a half for cleaning.

>Oh, and they also charged us for haircuts. As if we had a choice.

Barbar shop was a civilian contractor, he made his money shaving recruits
and cutting hair for soldiers.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Embrace Fascism.    The uniforms look cool


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:31:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:31:35 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <193.ac0a39b.2a7a20cf@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801102115.43afd25a@pop.mindspring.com>

At 01:27 AM 8/1/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>Imminent threats to national survival, of course, change casualty rate 
>acceptance.  But the original subject was hundreds of fighter pilots for the 
>one or two lucky shots to kill a capital ship as a standard by-the-book 
>tactic.  Never happen.

Look up the Battle of Midway.  The IJN Hiryu was caught reloading and
refueling by American dive bombers.  It took three hits and was on fire and
sank soon afterwards.  Another of the Japanese carriers absorbed a dozen
hits beofre sinking.

The Golden Shot does occur, that's why we try.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:32:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:32:07 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <bf.241eecb7.2a7a4368@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801102509.44ff225e@pop.mindspring.com>

At 03:55 AM 8/1/2002 EDT, you wrote:
> >>asking hundreds of them at a time to give up their lives all 
> >>at once, just to make a tactic work, in one segment of a 
> >>single battle, is not an insignificant outlay for THEM.  
> >>(push button) "go do this, guys."  (lights 
> >>flash) "ok."  it doesn't work that way.
> > 
> >See the battle of Midway.  The low level torpedo attack 
> >planes that sacrificed themselves to Japanese anti-aircraft 
> >fire so that the dive bombers would have a chance.
>
>Yes, with a huge Japanese fleet threatening their homeland and only them 
>standing between the yellow peril and their families.  It was not, however, 
>a standard tactic, employed "because they'll tolerate it".

Wrong.  Hawaii was a colony at the time, and the actual United states was
2000 miles away.  The Navy pilots did their jobs because that's what they
were trained to do.  Because that was the mission: sink those flat-tops.

Read up on the Battle of Camerone, or Gallipoli, or Verdun.  Soldiers can
and will sacrifice themselves for a greater purpose.
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <F137of0aYhHnKZ1nSIz0000ee76@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000001c23982$55e0e910$6501a8c0@Darla>

As an elaboration, the torpedo squadrons at Midway did not score any
hits -- but, quite by accident, they drew the Japanese fighter cover
down to sea level and cleared the way for the divebomber attacks that
sank three carriers.

This was not a deliberate "trade".  It just happened that way.  The
torpedo squadrons pressed their attack because they knew it was their
duty to do so.  They did not have ANY knowledge that they were setting
up a coordinated attack, or even of the presence of either of the two
other torpedo squadrons.  They attacked out of their determination to
close with and destroy the enemy:

"My greatest hope is that we encounter a favorable tactical situation,
but if we don't, and the worst comes to the worst, I want each of us to
do his utmost to destroy our enemies.  If there is only one plane left
to make a final run in, I want that man to go in and get a hit.  May God
go with us all."  --- John C. Waldron, CO TORPEDO EIGHT, 4 June 1942

The point being, that warriors fighting for what they believe it do not
weigh the cost in the moment of combat -- they do their duty, and there
is little that they cannot accomplish.


Thomas Barnes



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Acceptable losses
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020801091513.4667c4d0@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <20020731235711.7e8b877379fe414d85fbfc7414631d19.in@keywest.kennett.net>
 <20020731235711.7e8b877379fe414d85fbfc7414631d19.in@keywest.kennett.net>
 <3.0.5.16.20020801091513.4667c4d0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m3lm7qsbz0.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes:
> 
> Been reading Ground Forces again?

Not recently, but I do own it.  Hope you enjoyed the fraction of a cup
of coffee:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Man, I'm glad that I'm not using [Microsoft Product].  This new
[virus/worm/trojan] exploits a [flaw/bug/backdoor] in [Microsoft
Product], and it [does/doesn't] use Outlook and the stupidity of users.
Luckily, I'm running [Free alternative to Microsoft product], so I'm not
at risk.  In fact, [Free alternative to Microsoft product] has protected
me from [any integer over 200] [viruses/worms/trojans].  And just look
at the [hundreds/thousands/millions/billions] of dollars that I've saved
using [Free alternative to Microsoft product].  I hope that this [Free
alternative to Microsoft product] takes off, along with [free
alternative to Microsoft OS].  Unfortunately, my [company/home] has to
pay for the stupidity of Microsoft: this [virus/worm/trojan] sucked
[250KB/250MB/250GB/250TB] of bandwidth!                  --cwcairns

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CCC@USCHM203>

Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 09:40:55
To: tml@travellercentral.com
>"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:

>It is a violation of the laws of land warfare to intentionally shoot to
>maim or injure an enemy combatant.  You are supposed to go for the kill.
>This mainly applies to snipers, who have been known to wound enemy soldiers
>as bait for rescue attempts.

Don't know if this is true or not, but supposedly it is also a violation to
use an M2 (the .50 caliber Heavy MG of a recent thread) to shoot at
individual combatants. It is only to be used for attacking vehicles and
equipment.
A friend of mine who served in the US 101st told me that an instructor at
Fort Campbell then went on to give examples of what could be considered
"equipment":

"Web gear, canteens, helmets, eyeglasses, magazines, entrenching tools...."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:03:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:03:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Acceptable losses
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CC8@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <000001c23985$cff0e5e0$6501a8c0@Darla>

AFAIK the major reason that the Union Army in the ACW tended to raise
new regiments instead of adding replacement to veteran ones was that
raising a new regiment allowed the governor of the state to commission a
regiment's worth of officers, up to and including a Colonel.  

TWB

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com [mailto:tml-
> admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Hurrel, Brian
> Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 11:31 AM
> To: 'tml@travellercentral.com'
> Subject: Re: [TML] Acceptable losses
> 
> >Flykiller wrote:
> 
> >I read somewhere that during the War Between the States the Northern
> armies
> 
> >would place new recruits in entirely new brigades, which made them
> >unreliable
> >at first, while the Southern armies would install their new recruits
in
> >established armies, which steadied their new recruits greatly.
> 
> Not exactly relevant, but mention of the Civil War reminded me of what
one
> of my South Carolinian friends told me:
> 
> "You know what the difference was between a rich Yankee and a rich
> Southerner? The rich Yankee paid someone to take his place in the
army,
> and
> the rich Southerner outfitted his own regiment."
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <200208011810.LVR04270@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Douglas E. Berry" says
>Hey!  They gave me a pysch eval before I was assigned to 
>sniper school! Evidently, I was just sociopathic enough for 
>their purposes...

I think I see a pattern here...

long time Traveller player...
joins the military (some of us wished we did)...
maybe even the Marines, (but Ft. Benning School For Boys is 
OK)
probably infantry...
could be Navy, though...
fiendish affection for small arms...
ends up as a writer (gasp!) or a programmer (have to pay the 
bills) or a lawyer!

It almost looks like we saw our initial career paths in the 
LBBs, and when we mustered out, we went and got "ordinary" 
jobs.

I bet that fighting hole full of cold rainwater I stepped 
into near LZ Aardvark was put there by Doug.  Thanks, Doug.

________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] juries
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEFAEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <3D497ADB.7010302@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Terry Carlino wrote:

> I've got to say that I have very little confidence in the present U.S. legal
> system. I don't mean in a political way. I just don't think that an
> adversarial system is all that good for determining guilt. Amateur juries
> seem to me to be ill equipped to handle many kinds of cases. They let people
> go when there is very solid scientifically based evidence, such as DNA,
> because they don't understand it. They find thieves innocent who steal using
> a ledger rather than a gun because they can't understand the complex
> accounting ruses used to strip value form companies and defraud. They
> release obviously guilty individuals because the defense attorney is a
> better speaker or looks better in his $1000 suit than the prosecutor does in
> her $140 Kmart suit, (or vice versa for public defenders and big city
> political DA's.)

I'll start by mentioning two maxims:

The plural of anecdote is not data.

What you see on TeeVee is not all real.

And if you've never served on a jury, and had to make those decisions, 
you do not know what it's like. To imply that a jury lets someone off 
because they have a defense lawyer in a slick suit, is wrong, and 
moreover, pure demagoguery.

More often than not, the reality is that the lawyer who can afford the 
slick suit is a good lawyer, with lots of resources to devote to the case.

As a whole, the jury system in the US does work pretty damned well.

The entire justice system suffers a bit, because if you have money you 
can afford good lawyers. If you're poor, you get someone overworked who 
will counsel you to plead out rather than take a case to trial, often no 
matter what the actual state of your guilt or innocence.

Yeah, OJ got off.

The truth is, contrary to popular belief, the average American is not as 
dumb as a post, the average jury isn't stupid or incapable of dealing 
with sophisticated evidence.

In the OJ case, the jury obviously bought the defense argument (at least 
to a state of reasonable doubt) that the handling of the evidence, and 
the bias of the investigating officers had been sufficiently tainting 
that they couldn't convict.

Juries are told very carefully what they are and they aren't allowed to 
consider during deliberations, and sometimes that doesn't all make 
sense, particularly to someone, *unlike the jury*, that has been swamped 
with media coverage and rampant punditry on the case.

In the Anderson case, it was clear that something wrong had been done. 
Proving it was entirely another matter, because what had probably been 
done was the destruction of the evidence needed to prove the wrongdoing.

It was not clear, *from the evidence*, that the *people* had done what 
the prosecutors said they did.

Note, in the Anderson case, shady accounting practices did not come into 
the decision at all, merely whether they had conspired to obstruct justice.

No criminal case over *shady accounting* has yet come out of the recent 
scandals. In previous trials, people who committed shady deals *have* 
been convicted: Millken, Keating, our ex-guv J. Thief Slimington. 
(though the latter two got off because of appeals and a friggin' 
presidential pardon, respectively)

But the very nature of the evidence in trials over accounting is 
slipperier than, say, a trial over stolen property.

It's easy to say whether someone did or did not have Mrs. Smiths TV and 
stereo in the back of their car, or that the property was recovered with 
their fingerprints on it.

It's a LOT harder to say whether Mrs. Smith's finance adviser showed bad 
judgement, bad luck or criminal intent in commiting her to ruinous 
transactions.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:18:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:18:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <200208011817.LVR05093@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Hurrel, Brian" says
>"Web gear, canteens, helmets, eyeglasses, magazines, 
>entrenching tools...."

Yes, you can shoot at anything that the enemy soldier has 
signed for.  Make sure you check his forms, and after you 
fire your rounds, have him sign for the ones that hit him.

There have been references to Imperial rules concerning 
warfare - are there really any in canon?  No use of nukes by 
non-Imperial forces?  Meson guns?  No genocide?  Eh?

The line from Apocalypse Now always made sense to me: 
arresting someone for violating the rules of war is like 
handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
In-Reply-To: <200208011810.LVR04270@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B96ECAA0.67370%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 11:10 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> I bet that fighting hole full of cold rainwater I stepped
> into near LZ Aardvark was put there by Doug.  Thanks, Doug.

The wonderful bond of shared experience (misery).  We can all sit down
together, drink beer, and share tales of the fine accommodations of Harmony
Church, the facilities at AO Eagle, the pleasures of Columbus Georgia.
Differentiated only by the uniform we wore, or the color of our boots and
whether we took the SQT or the POIQT.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:24:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:24:35 2002
Subject: [TML] juries
Message-ID: <200208011823.LVR05798@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Bruce Johnson says
<snip good comments about the intractability of determining 
accounting wrongdoing>

Hence the general populations unease with the concept of "no 
controlling authority".

Maybe the concept of men, not so much laws, is not a bad 
one.  Sure, we could say that on Regina, there's no specific 
law against writing your ledgers that way.  On the other 
hand, if news gets out, and there's enough related heat (such 
as massive corporate collapse), the Duke of Regina will be 
sending you a personal invitation to the prison hulk.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:25:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:25:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <200208011817.LVR05093@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020801182452.5599.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:
> 
> The line from Apocalypse Now always made sense to
> me: 
> arresting someone for violating the rules of war is
> like 
> handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500.

Which is what I've always thought about so called
"rules of war".  It makes about as much sense to have
rules when it comes to war as it does to have speed
limits at the Indy 500 (or Daytona us southerners).

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:33:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff D. Greenly)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:33:18 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <sd494643.049@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>

Larsen raises several excellent points. I thought I would chime in,
briefly, because I am of the opinion that Mr. Fly simply doesn't get it
despite what the true warrior types on the TML have been (very
patiently) explaining. TML hasn't been this interesting in a while!

One need only to look at the Battle of the Atlantic to see how much of
an effect esprit de corps and loyalty go towards men willingly going
into grave danger. I may be slightly off on my numbers, but the U-Boat
service saw the highest losses of ANY service branch, across all
nationalities during WW II. Something like 80% of all U-boatmen were KIA
towards the end of the war, with the average life expectancy being a
week. 

Funny how there were more volunteers than the service needed right up
to the end of the war, and there was never a single incidence of mutiny
(although there was ONE incident where a u-boat captain was executed for
cowardice in the face of the enemy. This was based on the testimony of
his crew and his own logs!) The crews KNEW things were rough.There were
a lot more u-boats missing than ones that came back to port, and of the
ones that did come back in, very few had any kills to their credit as
the war dragged on. They knew that the time of the Paukenschlag and the
Gray Wolves were over. But they went for Onkel Karl and they went for
glory, and they went because they were the cream of the crop and they
knew it, and they died in STAGGERING numbers. 

I think that a massed assault by fighters, assault shuttles or other
small craft in conjunction with light and medium ships of the line is a
perfectly viable and certainly historically proven means of depriving
the enemy of his capital ships. All it takes is one hit and you're
halfway there. Stop and think. A big ship, crewed by thousands and
costing hundreds of millions of credits can be taken out of action by a
force of craft costing a tenth and crewed by 1-3 men each. Combine that
fighter attack with coups d'grace administered by a number of cruisers,
destroyers, frigates and so on, and you have a very flexible multi-role
force for a lot less than a fleet full of big ships. There's a reason
the US Navy (as well as most other modern fleets!) is comprised the way
it is. Learn from it.

Jeff
OT3, USN

BTW, I think some of the best Navy chow to be had is at RTC Great
Lakes. You can have as much as you can get down in 5 minutes. I can't
remember tasting anything while I was there, but I got plenty! I also
seem to remember getting charged 6 bucks for 2 haircuts while I was
there, 3 bucks for my web belts and spats (one green belt, one white
belt, one pair white spats) and 85 bucks for my peacoat. I still have
the peacoat. I think I also had to buy a pair of running shoes for 10
bucks, and I only ran in them a few times, in the old blimp hangers. I
remember having to buy a plastic cigarette case, even though we couldn't
smoke. It apparently was for small valuables, but I never used mine. We
also had to buy our Bluejacket Manuals. I still have mine, proudly
sitting on my bookshelf at home. Funny to go back and look at it after
all these years....Ah, well.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Scott Kullberg)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <200208011817.LVR05093@vmms1.verisignmail.com> ("John T.
 Kwon"'s message of "Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:17:04 -0400")
References: <200208011817.LVR05093@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <m2d6t2juj5.fsf@attbi.com>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:

> There have been references to Imperial rules concerning 
> warfare - are there really any in canon?  No use of nukes by 
> non-Imperial forces?  Meson guns?  No genocide?  Eh?
>
> The line from Apocalypse Now always made sense to me: 
> arresting someone for violating the rules of war is like 
> handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500.

As I read the canon, the Imperial Rules of War don't apply to the
Imperium and its peers; they're for Imperial members. Fight clean, and
your little planets can have their little wars. Play dirty, and you'll
have IN dreadnoughts in low orbit and Imperial Marine assault shuttles
on your capital. It works because of the peculiar Traveller convention
that a powerful over-government exists but still allows what we would
call call "civil wars".

There might be 'rules' when the Imps fight the Zhos, but those are
really just customs and just as (un-)enforceable as what we've got now.


-- 
Scott E Kullberg  --><--  sekullbe@attbi.com
 "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands,
 hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -- H. L. Mencken

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <20020801182452.5599.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B96ECE97.67378%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 11:24 AM, Paul Walker at traveller_tv@yahoo.com wrote:

> 
> Which is what I've always thought about so called
> "rules of war".  It makes about as much sense to have
> rules when it comes to war as it does to have speed
> limits at the Indy 500 (or Daytona us southerners).

I'm not sure that this is the same thing, and frankly, war without rules
frightens me.  We get back to barbaric times.  Shooting prisoners of war out
of hand, killing noncombatants, using poison gas, biological warfare, etc.,
etc.

Ultimately, all of these things have a very real toll, particularly on the
combatants themselves. Unless we want to become barbarians ourselves, again.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <m2d6t2juj5.fsf@attbi.com>
Message-ID: <B96ECF6B.6737C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 11:36 AM, Scott Kullberg at sekullbe@attbi.com wrote:

> 
> As I read the canon, the Imperial Rules of War don't apply to the
> Imperium and its peers; they're for Imperial members. Fight clean, and
> your little planets can have their little wars. Play dirty, and you'll
> have IN dreadnoughts in low orbit and Imperial Marine assault shuttles
> on your capital. It works because of the peculiar Traveller convention
> that a powerful over-government exists but still allows what we would
> call call "civil wars".
> 
> There might be 'rules' when the Imps fight the Zhos, but those are
> really just customs and just as (un-)enforceable as what we've got now.
> 

Yeah.  The Imperium like to preserve nukes and such for itself, if for no
other reason that to keep member states from getting too big for their
britches.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:03:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:03:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <B96ECE97.67378%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020801190214.8933.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> traveller_tv@yahoo.com wrote:
> > 
> > Which is what I've always thought about so called
> > "rules of war".  It makes about as much sense to
> have
> > rules when it comes to war as it does to have
> speed
> > limits at the Indy 500 (or Daytona us
> southerners).
> 
> I'm not sure that this is the same thing, and
> frankly, war without rules
> frightens me.  We get back to barbaric times. 
> Shooting prisoners of war out
> of hand, killing noncombatants, using poison gas,
> biological warfare, etc.,
> etc.
> 
> Ultimately, all of these things have a very real
> toll, particularly on the
> combatants themselves. Unless we want to become
> barbarians ourselves, again.
> 

Tod,

Actually, I agree with you, but I don't think it is
accurate to call it "rules" any more than the courtesy
between drivers at Indy or Daytona can be called
"speed limits" or "rules" of driving.

We extend POW's and noncombatants a certain amount of
"courtesy" and expect the same from our enemies.  Our
culture (at least for now) calls for this courtesy to
be extended even if it is not returned.  A perfect
example is the war against the terrorist
organizations.  They have no problem killing prisoners
and noncombatants, and yet we still extend the
courtesies mentioned above to them.

Maybe it is pedantic, but calling them rules implies
some sort of implicit wrong in breaking them.  Rather
than a courtesy, something that, in some cases, should
indeed be broken.

So, I guess I misspoke.  I should have said that it
makes about as much sense to have traffic laws at Indy
or Daytona as it does to have "rules" when it comes to
war.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <20020801190214.8933.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B96ED62A.67384%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 12:02 PM, Paul Walker at traveller_tv@yahoo.com wrote:
> 
> So, I guess I misspoke.  I should have said that it
> makes about as much sense to have traffic laws at Indy
> or Daytona as it does to have "rules" when it comes to
> war.
> 

Ah, but there are 'traffic laws' at Indy.  Take, for example, the yellow
flag.  Also, you cannot run down people.  You cannot install machineguns in
your car, dump oil or smoke, etc.

The rules of war are more than just courtesy in that when our own people
break them, we punish them.  Certainly, they are broken.  But we don't say
'That's OK'.  We may say that it is understandable.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:30:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moreton)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:30:22 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <43.f41b3de.2a7a45aa@aol.com>
Message-ID: <026001c23992$31805e60$18130050@amoreton>



> >HMS Glow-worm ramming the Admiral Hipper comes to mind. The destroyer's
>  >mass
>  >was literally the only thing that might hurt the cruiser, and if she
wasn't
>  >hurt then the convoy would be massacred. Her skipper knew his ship would
>  >sink; he knew many (but probably not all) of his crew would die. But the
>  >decision was made in the face of the enemy, for a clear goal - to save
>  >hundreds of helpless merchant seamen. Would the crew have accepted an
>  >Admiralty policy of "we're not giving you torpedoes. You're to close and
>  >ram, then sink"? In desperate times, some people actually would. But,
say,
>  >in 1934? Nope.

Not to disagree with    the point of the comment but some details on the
loss of HMS Glowworm  was not escorting a convoy at the time of the battle
with the Hipper, she had been part of a minelaying sortie off the Norwegian
coast she became seperated from her consorts and came across on of the
Hipper's escrting destroyers. In the prevailing bad weather the Glowworm was
forced into close action with the Hipper, the Hipper attempted to run down
the Glowworm and then the Captain of the Glowworm  Lt Cmdr Gerald G Rooper
deceided to Ram the Hipper he succeeded adn the impact carried away 120 feet
of the hippers side plate and let in 528 tons of water , the Hipper carried
on with a 4 degree list and accomplished her mission. Many of the Glowworms
crew where saved by German vessels not including her captain who drowned
while being rescued , he was postumously awarded the VC.
You may perhaps be confusing the Glowworm with 2 British Armed Merchant
crusiers the Jarvis Bay as the lone escort of a convoy the Jarvis Bay a
converted liner with about 6 obsolete 6 inch guns when the convoy
encountered the Pocket Battleship Admiral Scheer heavily armoured and armed
with 6 11 inch guns . The Jarvis Bay charged the Admiral Scheer drawing the
Fire of the Scheer upon herself allowing the Convoy to scatter to safety
.her Captain E S F Fegan was awarded the VC posthumously.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:32:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:32:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <20020801182452.5599.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020801182452.5599.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <m38z3qs7e0.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:
> 
> Which is what I've always thought about so called "rules of war".
> It makes about as much sense to have rules when it comes to war as
> it does to have speed limits at the Indy 500 (or Daytona us
> southerners).

Not really.  The whole point of a race is to see who can go the
fastest.  But the point of war is _not_ to see who can commit the most
atrocities.  The exact point is a matter of some contention, but I
tend to figure that it has to do with taking and holding territory.
Since someone else is holding and defending it, men are going to die.
But there's no point in being cruel about it.  `If you must kill a
man, there's no harm in being polite to him.'  In much the same way,
if you're going to kill a man, shoot him cleanly; don't leave him
lying in his guts screaming for hours.  Don't gas him, so he doesn't
die but instead leads a long life of pain and misery.  Don't hunt down
and kill his wife and children.  Don't torture him if you capture
him.  In fact, if you capture him he's no longer a threat, so don't
kill him at all.

The rules of war are what prevent a horrendous thing from becoming
even worse.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I owe the government $3400 in taxes.  So I sent them two hammers and a
toilet seat.                                         --Michael McShane

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:35:04 2002
Subject: [TML] juries
In-Reply-To: <3D497ADB.7010302@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEFAEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
 <3D497ADB.7010302@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <m34rees79e.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:
> 
> The truth is, contrary to popular belief, the average American is
> not as dumb as a post, the average jury isn't stupid or incapable of
> dealing with sophisticated evidence.

No, but his IQ is 100, which isn't that much more impressive...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Reading maketh a full man; conference a ready man; and writing an exact
man.                                                            --Bacon

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:43:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:43:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <20020801190214.8933.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020801190214.8933.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <m3y9bqqsbp.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:
> 
> We extend POW's and noncombatants a certain amount of "courtesy" and
> expect the same from our enemies.  Our culture (at least for now)
> calls for this courtesy to be extended even if it is not returned.

IMHO civilian opinion that's foolish.  The deal should be play by our
rules or we play by none.  That is, we'll refrain from using NBC
weapons, we'll take prisoners, we'll treat them right, we'll avoid
hitting civilians for exactly so long as the other side does.  If they
don't, then we don't; instead we run up the black flag and fight
dirty.  It's not as though they'd retaliate by fighting dirty; they
already do.

Note that I am _not_ referring to any current actions, simply to a
theoretical stance.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
His troops would follow him anywhere, but only out of curiosity.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:46:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:46:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <m38z3qs7e0.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <B96EDDFB.6739E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 12:31 PM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> and kill his wife and children.  Don't torture him if you capture
> him.  In fact, if you capture him he's no longer a threat, so don't
> kill him at all.

More than that, if you treat your prisoners well, and the enemy knows it,
they may be more inclined to surrender.  Would the Iraqis have surrendered
in droves if we were shooting them out of hand and putting their heads on
poles?  I don't think so.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Chris Tann)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <20020801190006.19736.20169.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020801194721.65071.qmail@web14504.mail.yahoo.com>

The actual Apocalypse Now quote is 

"Shit...charging a
man with murder in this place was like handing out speeding
tickets in the Indy 500."

I also like 

"They  train young men to drop fire on people. But their commanders 
won't allow them to  write fuck on their airplanes because it's obscene! "


> on 8/1/02 11:24 AM, Paul Walker at traveller_tv@yahoo.com wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Which is what I've always thought about so called
> > "rules of war".  It makes about as much sense to have
> > rules when it comes to war as it does to have speed
> > limits at the Indy 500 (or Daytona us southerners).
> 
> I'm not sure that this is the same thing, and frankly, war without rules
> frightens me.  
> ...

=====
***********************************************************
Chris Tann                           Independent Consultant
chris@christann.com                       Walkabout Designs
phone (408) 205 6793               http://www.christann.com
***********************************************************

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:51:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:51:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <m3y9bqqsbp.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <B96EDF1B.6739F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 12:42 PM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> 
> IMHO civilian opinion that's foolish.  The deal should be play by our
> rules or we play by none.  That is, we'll refrain from using NBC
> weapons, we'll take prisoners, we'll treat them right, we'll avoid
> hitting civilians for exactly so long as the other side does.  If they
> don't, then we don't; instead we run up the black flag and fight
> dirty.  It's not as though they'd retaliate by fighting dirty; they
> already do.
> 
> Note that I am _not_ referring to any current actions, simply to a
> theoretical stance.

There are reasons for 'playing by civilized rules' other than to encourage
the enemy to do so.  We are a civilized people.  Our soldiers come from that
civilized society.  If we 'play dirty', we can cause great harm to our own
soldiers.  You cannot take a civilized person, send him off to do
unspeakable acts, and then expect him to come home and fit well into
civilized society.  You cannot even expect to maintain discipline.  You
cannot let the enemy dictate your behavior in war.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <B96ED62A.67384%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020801195839.54151.qmail@web20905.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> Ah, but there are 'traffic laws' at Indy.  Take, for
> example, the yellow
> flag.  Also, you cannot run down people.  You cannot
> install machineguns in
> your car, dump oil or smoke, etc.

Good point.  The analogy des fall apart after a bit. 
Mainly because there is (and should be) a governing
authority over the teams/participants in the Indy 500.

The obvious ObTrav here is the Imperial Rules of War.
(IIRC, they were set down in some part first in MT)
 
> The rules of war are more than just courtesy in that
> when our own people
> break them, we punish them.  Certainly, they are
> broken.  But we don't say
> 'That's OK'.  We may say that it is understandable.

I wasn't aware that we police ourselves.  If we do,
then I have no objections to the use of the terms
rules.  Rules, to me, implies that somewhere, somehow
there is someone to answer to if you break them.

I see your point, and if we police ourselves, then
certainly I agree.  Unfortunately, my military
experience outside of the TML is sparse indeed.

ObTrav:  Are there any "Rules" of war between the 3I
and Zho's?  On either side, and who enforces them?

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 14:01:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  1 13:01:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <200208012000.LVV03238@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>There are reasons for 'playing by civilized rules' other 
>than to encourage the enemy to do so.  We are a civilized 
>people.  Our soldiers come from that civilized society.  If 
>we 'play dirty', we can cause great harm to our own
>soldiers.  You cannot take a civilized person, send him off 
>to do unspeakable acts, and then expect him to come home and 
>fit well into civilized society.  You cannot even expect to 
>maintain discipline.  You cannot let the enemy dictate your 
>behavior in war.

While I would shoot, say, a fellow soldier who engaged in an 
atrocity such as rape or torture, it is my belief that our 
soldiers should be allowed to write whatever strikes their 
fancy on the sides on bombs.  If someone comes home and his 
only aftereffect from the "war" is spontaneous graffiti, 
that's ok by me.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 14:04:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff D. Greenly)
Date: Thu Aug  1 13:04:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
Message-ID: <sd495bcc.012@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>

Would a world that has 80% of its surface covered by water, a dense
nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, and one moon that is large enough to exert a
tidal effect tend to be more or less climatically active? Assume
moderate (terran-normal) vulcanism and a fairly non-polluting early TL
aqua/agricultural society. Also assume standard polar ice caps and
rotation around 20 deg. off the plane of the ecliptic. I'll welcome any
and all comments...

Jeff

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 14:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug  1 13:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <B96EDF1B.6739F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020801200953.4391.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> ruhl@4dv.net wrote:
> > 
> > IMHO civilian opinion that's foolish.  The deal
> should be play by our
> > rules or we play by none.  That is, we'll refrain
> from using NBC
> > weapons, we'll take prisoners, we'll treat them
> right, we'll avoid
> > hitting civilians for exactly so long as the other
> side does.  If they
> > don't, then we don't; instead we run up the black
> flag and fight
> > dirty.  It's not as though they'd retaliate by
> fighting dirty; they
> > already do.
> > 
> > Note that I am _not_ referring to any current
> actions, simply to a
> > theoretical stance.
> 
> There are reasons for 'playing by civilized rules'
> other than to encourage
> the enemy to do so.  We are a civilized people.  Our
> soldiers come from that
> civilized society.  If we 'play dirty', we can cause
> great harm to our own
> soldiers.  You cannot take a civilized person, send
> him off to do
> unspeakable acts, and then expect him to come home
> and fit well into
> civilized society.  You cannot even expect to
> maintain discipline.  You
> cannot let the enemy dictate your behavior in war.
> 

I think this is a difficult issue.  I can see both
sides.  I agree with Tod to a certain extent, but I
think at issue is the extent of the attrocities. 
Certainly the pilots that dropped the nuke's in Japan
weren't unable to maintain their discipline.  I do
think they fit into civilized society afterwards.  Yet
they perpetrated attrocities against civillians as
well as the enemy military.

You see, on the one hand, I don't think any of us
would agree that blanket killing of women and children
is acceptable regardless of who they are.  Yet, in
some cases, we did condone the use of nukes that
killed women and children.

But again, the climate of our country (even our world)
has changed since then.  I doubt there would have come
a time when there was condoned use of nukes against
Afganistan.  Maybe we would use them against Iraq. 
The biggest difference is what is necessary.  In WWII,
it was thought necessary to end the war quickly, hence
the use of nukes was condoned.  Now, despite our
President's use of the "Axis" term, there aren't any
enemies that rival THE Axis threat (at least not yet
anyway).


Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 14:15:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 13:15:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
Message-ID: <ba.29ce83ea.2a7af085@aol.com>

In a message dated 01/08/02 03:47:59 GMT Daylight Time, jrholmes@wi.rr.com 
writes:


Don't be so certain to dismiss Oliver Stone.  After all, he was the
person who wrote Conan the Barbarian for John Milius to direct.  While
a daren't minimize what Milius brought to the story in his direction,
Stone still did a fair job of the near impossible task of telling the
origin story plus telling a classic style adventure.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Stone's script isn't the one that was filmed. His was a far more ambitious 
project involving Conan descending into hell. I believe Milius retained 
chunks of dialogue but I'm not sure how much of Stone's work survived.

There's a good documentary on the Conan DVD but it's a while since I've seen 
it and my memory can be a bit shaky.

Charles

All of us a creatures of a day; the rememberer and the remembered alike

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 14:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 13:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <20020801195839.54151.qmail@web20905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B96EE599.67422%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 12:58 PM, Paul Walker at traveller_tv@yahoo.com wrote:
> 
> ObTrav:  Are there any "Rules" of war between the 3I
> and Zho's?  On either side, and who enforces them?
> 

Rules only in the sense of mutually agreed upon ones (treaties) which govern
the conduct of war.  Typically, these are mutually beneficial, such as those
rules governing the treatment of prisoners, noncombatant, etc.  That is not
to say that each side may have it's rules as well, for no other reason than
"we don't do that sort of thing in the Imperial Army".

I suspect that there is a treaty or at least a tacit understanding that one
does not nuke the other's planet into glass, at least where large civilian
populations are involved.  Possibly merely when a planet is readily
habitable.  Unrestrained nuclear war is bound to have very unpleasant and
lasting consequences.  And canon does not indicate a large number of
destroyed words along either the Zhodani or Solomani borders of the
Imperium.

Are there prisoner exchanges?  Probably.  These were a feature of the 18th
and 19th century European wars and this time period certainly influenced the
designer of our Olde Game.  Perhaps captured officers (or at least
gentlebeings) are even given their parole.

The whole model of interstellar war seems to be more based on the model of
the late 16th early 17th century, where only small parts of the
nation-states actively participated in the war, the majority of the
population went about their business and provinces and such were traded back
and forth.  The one notable exception seems to be the Solomani Rim war,
where ideology and the stability of the Imperium itself played a major
factor, and by all accounts, this was a very nasty war.  One that ended
without a formal armistice, but only an uneasy cessation of hostilities.

I expect that in the rim war, there were probably more atrocities,
particularly given the Solomani attitude about non-Solomani.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 14:20:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 13:20:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <200208012000.LVV03238@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B96EE5E2.67423%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 1:00 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> While I would shoot, say, a fellow soldier who engaged in an
> atrocity such as rape or torture, it is my belief that our
> soldiers should be allowed to write whatever strikes their
> fancy on the sides on bombs.  If someone comes home and his
> only aftereffect from the "war" is spontaneous graffiti,
> that's ok by me.

Agreed.  I didn't mean to suggest that this be taken to ridiculous extremes.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 14:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 13:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <20020801200953.4391.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B96EE955.67436%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 1:09 PM, Paul Walker at traveller_tv@yahoo.com wrote:

> 
> I think this is a difficult issue.  I can see both
> sides.  I agree with Tod to a certain extent, but I
> think at issue is the extent of the attrocities.
> Certainly the pilots that dropped the nuke's in Japan
> weren't unable to maintain their discipline.  I do
> think they fit into civilized society afterwards.  Yet
> they perpetrated attrocities against civillians as
> well as the enemy military.

I think this is a bad example (the Nuke bombing in WWII) since they had be
presaged by the mass bombing of cities with conventional bombs.  I
retrospect, many see mass bombings of civilians as atrocities, but to the
pilots of the B-29s over Hiroshi and Nagasaki dropping their nukes was just
another bombing raid, only with better bombs.

Personally, I don't see the bombing of Hiroshima an Nagasaki a any different
than the fire bombing of Dresden, or the random bombing of English cities by
the Germans.

Our sensibilities have changed.  Would mass bombing of Baghdad have been
acceptable to modern westerners?  Doubtful. Notice how the military went to
great pains to show that it was military targets that were being bombed.
WWII planners showed no such concern.  People like 'Bomber' Harris actively
defended the mass bombing of non-combatant civilians.
> 
> You see, on the one hand, I don't think any of us
> would agree that blanket killing of women and children
> is acceptable regardless of who they are.  Yet, in
> some cases, we did condone the use of nukes that
> killed women and children.

See above.  We condoned the mass killing of women and children with large
scale conventional bombs as well.
> 
> But again, the climate of our country (even our world)
> has changed since then.  I doubt there would have come
> a time when there was condoned use of nukes against
> Afganistan.  Maybe we would use them against Iraq.
> The biggest difference is what is necessary.  In WWII,
> it was thought necessary to end the war quickly, hence
> the use of nukes was condoned.  Now, despite our
> President's use of the "Axis" term, there aren't any
> enemies that rival THE Axis threat (at least not yet
> anyway).

I think it is more than just necessity.  It is a shrinking of our world, and
a change in attitude that says that even out enemies lives have a certain
value.  Ever watched a WWII Bugs Bunny cartoon.  The Germans, and
particularly the Japanese were horribly dehumanized.  We made our enemies
into monsters so then it was OK to exterminate them.

It's certainly not a new attitude. Look at Europeans attitudes of Africans
during the 19th century (white man's burden), or white Americans' vision of
blacks in our own country during the same period.

Nowadays, our sensibilities have change so dramatically that we worry about
whether we are mistreating animals.  During the gulf war there was even
concern about what impact military operations would have on the delicate
desert environment!
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 14:43:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Aug  1 13:43:22 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CDE@USCHM203>

"No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy."

I'm paraphrasing, and can't remember who said this. Maybe Clausewitz(SP?).

The way tactics and counter-tactics evolve, often on the fly, it seems that
in the "fighter swarm" case, you might get away with it once or twice, and
then capital ships would either add a swarm of escorts or a phalanx of point
defense weapons.
Traveller is a bit more static than our world when it comes to technology,
but military technology has been rapidly changing only for the last few
centuries. Earlier on there weren't many advances, but even though change
was slow, warfare has always evolved to meet each new "surefire tactic",
whether that change took a century or a month.
The point being, few "standard tactics", beyond "fix and flank", are going
to last long.
If I'm not mistaken, just about every armed force in WWII was constantly
evolving new tactics for new situations. 
Simply put:

Captain: Okay, this is how we did it yesterday, but this is what we're going
to do today.

The best example I can think of is the Normandy hedgerows. The US had
absolutely no plans whatsoever to take these formidable defensive positions
into account. They had simply been ignored in all planning.
Within weeks they had not only developed tactics to clear the hedgerows, but
had improvised existing equipment, jerry-rigged tanks with makeshift
"dozer-mount" hedgecutters, and directly implemented the new tactics in the
field.
No think-tanks. No research at the Aberdeen proving grounds. No statistics
and exhaustive analysis. They just thought it up and did it and it happened
to work.

As many of the posts have shown, there are so many variables in combat that
it is impossible to apply any neat categorization or standardization of
tactics. Warfare abounds with happy accidents, and what works today might be
disastrous tomorrow (and vice/versa).
I think Patton said(paraphrasing and probably naming the wrong source again)
"A mediocre plan executed immediately is better than a briliant plan
executed later."
Hit hard, hit first, and where they least expect it, and you can make up for
a lot of doctrinal weaknesses.
On the other hand, if you're talking about a set piece slugathon between
comarable forces, then it comes down to sheer mass, attrition, and whoever's
left when the dust clears.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 14:49:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 13:49:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <B96EE599.67422%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B96EE599.67422%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m3sn1yqp9b.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
>
> Perhaps captured officers (or at least gentlebeings) are even given
> their parole.

How exactly does this work?  Does one promise not to fight against
one's captor ever again, or simply for a time period, or until the end
of the current engagement, or until one has journeyed back home,
or...?  I've considered it pretty rotten that US soldiers are not
allowed to give their parole and get back home, but perhaps that's
just me.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I don't want to achieve immortality through my work.  I want to achieve
it by not dying.                                          --Woody Allen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 15:03:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 14:03:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <m3sn1yqp9b.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <B96EEFF4.6744B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 1:48 PM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> How exactly does this work?  Does one promise not to fight against
> one's captor ever again, or simply for a time period, or until the end
> of the current engagement, or until one has journeyed back home,
> or...?  I've considered it pretty rotten that US soldiers are not
> allowed to give their parole and get back home, but perhaps that's
> just me.

I'm not sure.  Naturally, it will depend on ones opponent.  Do the Joes have
a class with the same sense of honor as the Imperial aristocracy?  Perhaps
Imperial nobility and Zhodani adepts share some common standards of honor
and paroles are granted for the duration of hostilites.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 15:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Aug  1 14:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Character Conversions
Message-ID: <Springmail.0994.1028235993.0.26126500@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>

Paul Walker asked:
> 
> Has anyone ever come up with a good character
> conversion system?  I mean one that allows for
> conversion to CT, MT, TNE, T4, GT, and T20.
> 
> I know that some of these are very similar (MT
> & T4),
> but what about the others?

Some of the systems and skill sets are so different, I'm not sure if they can
all be consolidated. I've just finished converting a Zho generated from the CT
Zho supplement into GT and he's practically god-like (rolled incredibly well
back in '87 for psionics).

The GT conversion process, IMO, is overly generous to highly experienced
CT/TNE characters with upper-end stats.

Then again, I've played this guy through 5 long-term campaigns. Great for solo
runs but a bit overpowering with other, more youthful characters.

David Smart

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 15:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Thu Aug  1 14:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <3D480612.20345.F70592@localhost>
References: <3D46C8CE.8734.1C2B394@localhost> <3D480612.20345.F70592@localhost>
Message-ID: <02073117152800.00606@linux>

> That could be a bit tricky, considering that HG has no conversions for
> volume to mass. Using those from MT or FF&S seems a little pointless as
> they use different assumptions. The real difference would be that heavy
> armour would be less attractive, especially at lower TLs.

	Exactly.. which means that specialized ships ala battlecruisers (hms hood)
and fighter carriers could be viable and even cost effective. Given that 
there is never enough power or thrust....one must strike a balance to use 
what you have to be efficient. 
	I have to admit that I don't use high guard anymore (I am returning to 
gaming after a 15 year absence). I found a rule set I like with Bruce 
Macintosh's military combat system. I think it is better than hg 2nd ed. 
	Sorry if I came across as argumentive. With so many differrent rule sets
(ct/mt/tne/t4/gurps/t5/t20...etc.), I guess that the game of traveller is 
more a matter of background assumptions than a set of rules.And everybody has 
different ideas of how the universe should look and act.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 15:11:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Thu Aug  1 14:11:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
In-Reply-To: <20020801123223.5AA10451A@mo130uhou.palm.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0208011409330.15910-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>

On Thu, 1 Aug 2002, Mark Urbin wrote:

> Rob Davenport <rgd@infinet.com> wrote:
> >	Ed Wood's "Starship Troopers"
>
> Kenji Schwartz gave a good rant compairing ST to an Ed Wood movie.
> You can find it on my SciFi sig quote page.

Found it:

"IMHO, if we resurrected Ed Wood, and gave him the same budget to do Plan
9 From Outer Space as Verhoeven had to do Starship Troopers, I think we'd
have a contender on our hands. The eye candy would likely be just as good,
and the story about on a par." -- Kenji Schwarz on the Traveller Mailing
List.

I don't think he's that far off the mark.  :)

Rob




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 15:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu Aug  1 14:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <B96EE599.67422%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020801211106.5B7CE279A0@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/01/02 at 01:18 PM,  Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
said:

>on 8/1/02 12:58 PM, Paul Walker at traveller_tv@yahoo.com wrote: > 
>> ObTrav:  Are there any "Rules" of war between the 3I
>> and Zho's?  On either side, and who enforces them?
>> 

>Rules only in the sense of mutually agreed upon ones (treaties) which
>govern the conduct of war.  Typically, these are mutually beneficial,
>such as those rules governing the treatment of prisoners,
>noncombatant, etc.  That is not to say that each side may have it's
>rules as well, for no other reason than "we don't do that sort of
>thing in the Imperial Army".

IMTU...

The Imperium as set up "Rules of War" that apply to members of the
Imperium, and they enforce them, as they see fit, with Imperial
forces. Because the Imperium is ruled by men, not by laws, the Rules
of War are also whatever the men in charge say they are, but there are
a number of customary rules that the Gentlemen of the Imperium
generally subscribe to: No weapons of mass destruction (nukes,
biologicals, near-c rocks, etc), no genocide, limits on valid targets,
etc. 

When the Imperium deals with outsiders, all bets
are...potentially...off. However, the nobles of the Imperium are loath
to abandon their own rules even then, and generally won't unless the
other side does first. If, for example, an opponent doesn't engage in
slagged planet war against the Imperium, then neither does the
Imperium. Over time these conventions evolve into "unwritten rules"
between opponents, and as long as the cultures remain the same those
unwritten rules ("Dropping a rock on them just isn't cricket, old
boy!") will remain in effect.

What these unwritten rules are is up to you, but personally, I use
17th and 18th European rules concerning ransoms, hostages, pledges,
prisoner exchanges, not attacking non-combatants, fighting away from
civilian areas. and so on. Civilizated states abide by them,
barbarians don't.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 15:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Thu Aug  1 14:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <158.11a2925f.2a77b127@aol.com>
References: <158.11a2925f.2a77b127@aol.com>
Message-ID: <02073100275101.01008@linux>

On Tuesday 30 July 2002 05:06 am, you wrote:
> >This sounds like comparing apples and oranges........
>
> well yes, that was my whole point.  optimization can be had in the real
> (our) world, but in the traveller universe there's not much optimization to
> be had.
>
> >base acceleration and agility on displacement, NOT mass. Massive objects
> >(heavy-armor) will be slower and more sluggish unless equipped with
> >big-thrust engines, which means more fuel < more mass again > .
> > Optimization in this case counts.
>
> I completely agree.  but since traveller doesn't operate this way, now we
> are _really_ talking apples and oranges, and have changed the subject as
> well from traveller ship optimization to house rules.  in traveller, there
> are no optimization opportunities here.

	Then I humbly suggest that the rules for realistic thrusters ala 'hard 
times' or FF&S1 be followed in order for the Traveller universe to more 
closely mimic what we observe in the Real World tm. However I fully concede 
to you as long as ct or high guard is used.

> >Remember, military
> >spending is a hole that does not advance a world's economic growth, so it
> >must be kept to a minimum. Optimization Counts.
>
> ah yes, military spending.  but have you noticed that money is not at all
> the limiting factor in naval construction?  and even if it were, it's not
> the factor you make it out to be.  in the united states today, 250 million
> citizens contribute $300 billion or so annually in defense spending --
> that's $1200 from each man, woman, child, and illegal alien.  trillion
> credit squadron states that each imperial citizen contributes an average of
> 500Cr towards their navy -- I don't think that that is at all unreasonable,
> especially given that their military is primarily naval.  if anything it's
> too low, but it's still enough to allow the spinward marches to pay for
> about 2500 200kton battleships.  that's a lot of hardware, enough to put,
> what, ten battleships in each and every imperial spinward marches system. 
> what significant optimization can be had here?  there's some, but not much.

 hmmm... I must examine this .... after applying exchange rates and figuring 
the costs of support facilities, supplies and auxiliaries ( not to mention 
graft and 400$ hammers)

> >Also by using 'realistic'
> >thrust agents, fuel use becomes a major factor in fleet actions,
>
> as an aside, yeah, I suppose so.  but I subscribe completely to gary
> gygax's idea:  "More 'realistic' combat systems could certainly have been
> included here, but they have no real part in a game for a group of players
> having an exciting adventure."


Here is the schwerpunkt. Do people play traveller as a wargame...or do they 
play traveller as a RPG.?  How wonderful that there exists a game that can do 
both well.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 15:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Aug  1 14:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CE0@USCHM203>

"John T. Kwon" wrote:

>I think I see a pattern here...

>long time Traveller player...
>joins the military (some of us wished we did)...
>maybe even the Marines, (but Ft. Benning School For Boys is 
>OK)
>probably infantry...
>could be Navy, though...
>fiendish affection for small arms...
>ends up as a writer (gasp!) or a programmer (have to pay the 
>bills) or a lawyer!

>It almost looks like we saw our initial career paths in the 
>LBBs, and when we mustered out, we went and got "ordinary" 
>jobs.

LOL. It certainly crossed my mind. Oddly enough, I almost never played a
Marine character when I was younger. Had my heart set on West Point, but
didn't have the grades.

After "mustering out", I spent alot of time doing the usual PC thing,
hanging around in pubs looking for something exciting to do.

SPOILER ALERT
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Unfortunately, though I met many fascinating (and in some cases possibly
alien) characters, I was never asked to rescue a senator from an Imperial
prison hulk, reunite a Chirper with his siblings, discover a secret Zhodani
base, lead a trade mission to uncharted territory, investigate a
megacorporation, or run into "Grandfather". (actually, I think I might have
seen him after a particularly long bout of controlled substance indulgence
in New York --- might have just been a stone gargoyle on 3rd Avenue though).

The closest thing I ever did that could actually be considered "adventuring"
was driving a cab while in college. I'd rather be nosing around pyramids on
Yorbund than do THAT for a living again. Statistically, you'd be safer as an
Army Ranger.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 15:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Aug  1 14:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <sd494643.049@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
References: <sd494643.049@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
Message-ID: <20020802075436.A11303@freeman.little-possums.net>

Jeff D. Greenly wrote:
> I thought I would chime in, briefly, because I am of the opinion
> that Mr. Fly simply doesn't get it despite what the true warrior
> types on the TML have been (very patiently) explaining. TML hasn't
> been this interesting in a while!

In my estimation, the signal-to-noise ratio took an extreme dive since
Mr. Fly started posting :/


> I think that a massed assault by fighters, assault shuttles or other
> small craft in conjunction with light and medium ships of the line is a
> perfectly viable and certainly historically proven means of depriving
> the enemy of his capital ships.

I think I can sum up the counterargument: N3V3R H@PP3N!!1!

Besides, who is more suicidal in entering such a battle: the fighter
crew, some of whom will die in achieving victory; or the capital ship
crew, *all* of whom will die *pointlessly*?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <B96EEFF4.6744B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B96EEFF4.6744B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m3d6t2qlgr.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> 
> > How exactly does this work?  Does one promise not to fight against
> > one's captor ever again, or simply for a time period, or until the
> > end of the current engagement, or until one has journeyed back
> > home, or...?  I've considered it pretty rotten that US soldiers
> > are not allowed to give their parole and get back home, but
> > perhaps that's just me.
> 
> I'm not sure.  Naturally, it will depend on ones opponent.  Do the
> Joes have a class with the same sense of honor as the Imperial
> aristocracy?  Perhaps Imperial nobility and Zhodani adepts share
> some common standards of honor and paroles are granted for the
> duration of hostilites.

How did it work historically?  What forms of parole were granted?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
So Microsoft's invented the ASCII equivalent to ugly ink spots that
appear on your letter when your pen is malfunctioning.
        --Greg Andrews, about Microsoft's way to encode apostrophes

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Who Should Have Directed Starship Troopers?
References: <200208010008.LUH03387@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D49B311.B90AA08@mindspring.com>

"John T. Kwon" wrote:
> 
> Yes, I'm sure now it should have been John Waters.
> 
> And Divine should have played Sergeant Zim...
> ________________
> "I am Weasel!"
>
You're scaring me John.


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Why keep on enacting laws when we already have more than we can break.          
                             -Unknown

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:26:02 2002
Subject: Common TL (was Re: [TML] sword vs shotgun)
References: <6f.2b5bca38.2a79e68c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D49B516.D6ED825@mindspring.com>

GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Rupert Boleyn writes:
> 
> >Bear in mind that when CT was written anything over about TL12 was
> >pretty uncommon.
> 
> And should still be, frankly. One of MTs mistakes (laid firmly at the feet of
> DGP) was that suddenly everyone was using TL15 equipment, flying TL15
> starships, and eating TL15 food. And shopping at 'G'.
> 
> Now I realize that a number of the TL15 worlds are true powerhouses of
> production, but asking Glisten to keep half the Marches in gadgets is asking
> a bit much of the (already much abused) economic model...
> 
> GC
> 

Glisten keeps Glisten subsector and portions of the Trojan Reach sector in TL 15 gadgets. Soon they
will be keeping Forine/District 268 in TL 15 missiles ;p

-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Why keep on enacting laws when we already have more than we can break.          
                             -Unknown

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:27:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:27:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <memo.528804@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <m3d6t2qlgr.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
> How did it work historically?  What forms of parole were granted?

The whole thing worked on the principle of 'an officer and a gentleman' 
and the fact that honour was paramount and no gentleman would break his 
word.

Various levels of parole could be granted. An officer might give his 
parole not to escape, and be permitted to wander freely, but within 
bounds, around the place he was being held. He usually had to be back by 
nightfall, or a set time, and sleep in the premises provided. He might be 
limited to a castle, or to the surrounding village, or whatever. He might 
even be permitted to go horseback riding, perhaps with an escort.

Sometimes officers were permitted to return home, having given their 
parole not to bear arms against their captors. This might be conditional, 
in that once an officer of equivalent rank had been sent back the other 
way, he would be free to enter the fray again. Basically a prisoner 
exchange, only one would be allowed to go home in advance on the 
understanding that he wouldn't fight until the exchange had been 
completed.

It was always a personal matter, not one of policy. If you came home 'on 
parole' it was up to you to inform your superiors that you were not 
available to fight until the terms of your parole had been met.

There's a fine fictional example in one of the Hornblower novels. 
Hornblower, who'd been captured by the Spanish, had given his parole and 
was permitted to wander the village in which he was being held. One day he 
was on a nearby headland and spotted some fishermen in difficulties in 
stormy seas. He was allowed to take a boat out and rescue them, but 
conditions were such that the whole party were swept out to sea - where 
they were picked up by an English warship. The captain was all for 
welcoming him back with open arms (and locking up the French seamen), but 
Hornblower not only insisted that, as civilian fishermen, they should be 
let loose, he also demanded to go back too, so as to keep his given word 
not to attempt to escape from the village.

Other ranks (enlisted personnel), not being 'gentlemen,' could not give 
parole, so just got locked up!

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20020731221815.00a378c0@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <3D49B623.C79BF0B5@mindspring.com>

Hal wrote:
> 
> Another thing to consider?
> 
> When you are in a war against an enemy you and your compatriots HATE with a
> consuming passion - you may find that the problem isn't in getting your
> fighter crews to go out against your enemy - but in keeping them from being
> TOO aggressive.
> 
> One other thing that is often overlooked here when it comes to psychology
> of war?  Being in a fighter platform instead of a ship's laser power plant
> generator room - permits the fighter pilot to feel that his actions *DO*
> count in the battle.
> 
> A final comment on this before I have to go to work:
> 
> If you have a large enough pool of pilots for use in the battles ahead, and
> it has become naval doctrine to use fighters in a swarm mode - naval
> trainers will be indoctrinating their fighter pilots to accept the fact
> that 100 fighters lives in exchange for 1,000 enemy lives is a fair
> trade.  It takes months to build a hull of note.  It takes weeks to build a
> fighter platform.  There are More Class B starports able to churn out
> fighters than there are class A starports churning out capital ships.  I
> really think someone should take the time and effort to build up a
> "fictional" sector for use in a massive campaign over the net...  Hmmmm -
> HIGH GUARD and TCS rules anyone? ;)
> 
>               Hal
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Why fictional? How about the FFW encompassing all of the marches. 
-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Why keep on enacting laws when we already have more than we can break.          
                             -Unknown

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <20020801182128.9068d26d087748de93de63949d36b6f5.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>One need only to look at the Battle of the Atlantic to see how much of
>an effect esprit de corps and loyalty go towards men willingly going
>into grave danger. I may be slightly off on my numbers, but the U-Boat
>service saw the highest losses of ANY service branch, across all
>nationalities during WW II. Something like 80% of all U-boatmen were KIA
>towards the end of the war, with the average life expectancy being a
>week. 

Toward the end, yes.  But remember, the life expectancy was changing
constantly through-out the war.  An aggressive U-Boat skipper would almost
assuredly die on his first patrol in 1945 while a similar man in 1940 would
have racked-up patrols and kills for close to a year without much risk.

>Funny how there were more volunteers than the service needed right up
>to the end of the war, and there was never a single incidence of mutiny
>(although there was ONE incident where a u-boat captain was executed for
>cowardice in the face of the enemy. This was based on the testimony of
>his crew and his own logs!) The crews KNEW things were rough.There were
>a lot more u-boats missing than ones that came back to port, and of the
>ones that did come back in, very few had any kills to their credit as
>the war dragged on. They knew that the time of the Paukenschlag and the
>Gray Wolves were over. But they went for Onkel Karl and they went for
>glory, and they went because they were the cream of the crop and they
>knew it, and they died in STAGGERING numbers. 

I think you are overestimating how much the crewmembers knew at the time.  A
lot of U-Boats would be missing from the subpens at Brest or Lorient when a
sub got back, but that could be explain by saying the ships were on patrol.
They probably did know a lot more about losses then Allied submariners,
because the U-Boats were too chatty on the radios for their own good (A
fatal weakness for Karl Donitz's force even without Ultra.  At least one
U-Boat was sunk within an hour of radioing in to U-Boat HQ, after being
detected by radio direction finders.  The ironic part of the saga was the
sub's message.).

Also, officers for the U-Boat fleet often were not volunteers, or were not
given the chance to - Officers of the Kriegsmarine were EXPECTED to go to
whatever duty station they were assigned without comment.  When Martin
Middlebrook interviewed some veterans for his book _Convoy_, the U-Boat
officers often were surprised at the question of volunteering.  Some of the
crewmembers of the U-Boats also seemed to have "volunteered" under less then
voluntary circumstances

>I think that a massed assault by fighters, assault shuttles or other
>small craft in conjunction with light and medium ships of the line is a
>perfectly viable and certainly historically proven means of depriving
>the enemy of his capital ships. All it takes is one hit and you're
>halfway there. Stop and think. A big ship, crewed by thousands and
>costing hundreds of millions of credits can be taken out of action by a
>force of craft costing a tenth and crewed by 1-3 men each. Combine that
>fighter attack with coups d'grace administered by a number of cruisers,
>destroyers, frigates and so on, and you have a very flexible multi-role
>force for a lot less than a fleet full of big ships. There's a reason
>the US Navy (as well as most other modern fleets!) is comprised the way
>it is. Learn from it.

"Most"?  I would be careful about that.

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

 My Sale List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
 My Want List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:31:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:31:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <20020801182132.8dc5803e76f94f1f98d7b72b3352174c.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>> >The USN's Devastators had been in service ~7 years and was an 
>> obselescent 
>> >design too, although not as bad as the Swordfish(1).
>> 
>> The Swordfish was not bad....And for the role it was intended, it was
>> probably better then the TBD!  Which is a sad commentary on US naval
>> aviation more then anything else.
>
>OTOH, the Stringbag was never sent into battle against carrier-based 
>fighters.  The TBD pilots at Midway, meanwhile, had to try to survive 
>without fighter cover against the A6M Zero.  Hardly a fair contest (of 
>course, any military leader who tries to fight war _fairly_ isn't doing 
>the job correctly).

True.  The Japanese pilots would have still mopped the floor with any
torpedo bombers.  Then again, the Stringbag did not have to serve in the
Pacific.  Good thing too, since the Japanese managed to massacre the torpedo
bombers the British DID have in the early days of the Pacific War
(Wildebeasts, IIRC.).

FYI, the Brewster Buffalo has such a bad reputation because of its poor
combat performance against the Japanese.  Yet we are talking about the same
fighter that managed to beat the Grummen Wildcat in the US Navy's
competition for a carrier fighter just before World War 2.  If Brewster had
not proven so inept in actually building and upgrading the fighter, then we
would be seeing Buffalos tangling with Zeros at Midway....

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

 My Sale List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
 My Want List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <76.201d4ff6.2a7b1285@aol.com>

 >>  >They might want more choices besides Dreadnaughts.
 >>
 >> Show me your choices.  I'd love to see 'em.
 >
 >Low-end ships so you can do all your jobs within your budget maybe?

I understand that, but there's the question of what your enemy is doing.  
Consider the extreams -- if your goal is to win engagements then you'll want 
a few expensive capital ships, but if you want to "do all the jobs" then 
you'll want a herd of warm bodies (as it were).  Between the extreams is the 
balance -- but where is it?  I think it's way over in the "win engagements" 
side.  If you "cover all the bases" with warm bodies but have to flee every 
time the heavyweight enemy shows up then what good is that?  There is no 
substitute for victory, and to get that victory you need the heavyweights and 
you need more of them than your enemy.

 >Patrol ships and tankers and whatever you plan to escort the talkers with.

If by patrol you mean scouts, then yes.  But if you mean general policing 
then I'd think that would be a local police matter and not a fleet matter.  
If I'm an admiral at Jewell looking at 1000 Zhodie capital ship in Cronor, 
and I hear about some pirates at Enope, I'd have to set priorities and ask 
Wochiers to deal with it.  Since imminent war is not a constant threat, if 
some patrols were desperately needed by local governments then I'd send some 
screening vessels to deal with the problem and then return.

As for tankers (?), if I had any I'd just keep them with the fleet.

>The USN,
>for example, has other ships than carriers or attack subs (whichever you
>consider to be the capital ship). Most navies have some high-end combat
>ships and low-end workhorses.

That's because of real-world issues regarding weapon load capacities, size vs 
speed, air / surface / sub environment requirements, hull-shape requirements, 
and dozens of other factors, make such specialization necessary and 
effective.  These issues don't transfer well to a Traveller universe.  In 
Traveller everyone can go just as fast as the next guy, they all can carry 
the same weapons, there's no limitation on size or hull configuration, and so 
on.  Would you put an Ageis system on a cargo ship?  You can do it in 
Traveller, and it works.  Would you put ten inch armor on a destroyer?  You 
can do it in Traveller, and it works.  Effective combat ships will all tend 
towards the same hull/weapons/defenses configuration, and specialization will 
become mere limitation.

My Spinward Marches Colonial Fleet has supply vessels, hospital ships, 
minesweepers, and other stuff in addition to its capital vessels.  But they 
are all sideshows, and minor elements of the fleet -- maybe 5% of the total 
tonnage.  I intend to win the major engagements first -- I'll clean up any 
leftover messes after I win.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <bf.241eecb7.2a7a4368@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D49BA6B.37759812@mindspring.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> 
>  >>asking hundreds of them at a time to give up their lives all
>  >>at once, just to make a tactic work, in one segment of a
>  >>single battle, is not an insignificant outlay for THEM.
>  >>(push button) "go do this, guys."  (lights
>  >>flash) "ok."  it doesn't work that way.
>  >
>  >See the battle of Midway.  The low level torpedo attack
>  >planes that sacrificed themselves to Japanese anti-aircraft
>  >fire so that the dive bombers would have a chance.
> 
> Yes, with a huge Japanese fleet threatening their homeland and only them
> standing between the yellow peril and their families.  It was not, however, a
> standard tactic, employed "because they'll tolerate it".

Read Miracle at Midway a few years back. IIRC the torpedo planes were the ones EXPECTED to take out
the jap ships. But communication, navigation and planning errors resulted in the attacks being
uncoordinated and the TBY's? wound up being slaughtered by the jap CAP and the ships. When the dive
bombers showed up there were no planes in a position to oppose their attack.


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Why keep on enacting laws when we already have more than we can break.          
                             -Unknown

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMEKKCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com>
>
>yes!  Yes!  YESSSS!!!!!
>
>I have arrived.  I have my first keyboard kill.  And
>from Glenn, too, an honored old timer and regular.
>
>I think I'll print it out on paper suitable for framing.

Don't get cocky, kid.  We'll teach ya the secret handshake and stuff at
BayCon or if ya come down ta San Jose on a game day.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:55:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:55:33 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Acceptable losses
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEKKCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
>
>No, you don't understand.  Every unit must have a Texan (known as
>Tex), a Brooklyner, a racist Southerner, an effete intellectual, a Jew
>and half-a-dozen Midwesterners.  At least, acc. to the war movies:-)

The war movies, of course, took that demography from Norman Mailer's The
Naked and the Dead.  (The man who recommended it to me was a decorated NCO
veteran of the Pacific campaign, and he said that it was very true to his
experience.  It is indeed a great book.)

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:56:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:56:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  juries
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Flykiller@aol.com

someone wrote:
>Amateur juries
>seem to me to be ill equipped to handle many kinds of cases.

Flykiller@aol.com replied:
>True.  And irrelevant to why they exist.  Juries aren't meant to be
>professional, quite the opposite.  Juries are meant to be a last and final
>check and balance against governmental power over individual citizens.  The
>government can't put anyone in jail unless they can get a bunch of amateur
>citizens to agree.  It's preferable to the alternative.

If you can't explain your case so that twelve ordinary people understand it,
then you don't understand your case adequately.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:56:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:56:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
>
>Sure, not now: a video game, even a military simulator, is simply not
>possible of fully-simulating flight, combat &c.  But thousands of
>years in the future that's not an issue.  If you can damp inertia and
>fake gravity, you can fake the motions and sensations of combat.  If
>you can broadcast in 3D, you can generate a photo-realistic world
>outside the phony cockpit windows.  The only thing you _cannot_
>simulate is the fear of death--and real military training cannot AFAIK
>do that either; only actual flight time can do that.

"I'm sorry, but it appears that Cadet Uhl was killed by the simulator.  In
the simulation, he accelerated his fighter to very high speed, then crashed
it into the drives of an enemy battleship.  The simulation ran its gravitics
to simulate the crash and increased the temperature to simulate the fire
when his L-Hyd tanks exploded.  The combination of being crushed and burned
caused injuries that we were unable treat effectively.  Next!"

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:57:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:57:06 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Acceptable losses
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>
>
>"You know what the difference was between a rich Yankee and a rich
>Southerner? The rich Yankee paid someone to take his place in the army, and
>the rich Southerner outfitted his own regiment."

"An Aramisian doesn't mind if the Vargr live close, as long as they don't
get uppity.  A Reginan doesn't mind if the Vargr get uppity, as long as they
don't live close."

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:58:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:58:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
>There have been references to Imperial rules concerning
>warfare - are there really any in canon?  No use of nukes by
>non-Imperial forces?  Meson guns?  No genocide?  Eh?

Striker and, I think, MegaTraveller Imperial Encyclopedia, state the
Imperial rules of war.  Here's my view of them.

1.  These "rules" are not a code for combatants.  They are guidelines to aid
local Imperial officials in exercising their discretion about whether to
intervene in a conflict or not.  They are not written down, and they don't
bind anybody.

2.  These rules only apply to situations in which all combatants are
Imperial citizens, or in the employ of Imperial citizens.

3.  The Imperium may choose to intervene if nuclear weapons are in the
possession or use of either side.  Query whether californium or uranium
rounds count as "nuclear" weapons.  Other weapons of mass destruction may
trigger Imperial intervention.

4.  The Imperium may choose to intervene if there is unreasonable off-world
influence in a matter involving a single member state.

5.  War involving space and star craft is permitted, as long as interstellar
commerce is not unduly affected.

"Unduly," "unreasonable," "choose" -- this are only guidelines for Imperial
officials to consider in exercising their discretion.  The rules of war will
not support any sort of legal action (war being, after all, the opposite of
law).

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 17:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug  1 16:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <bf.241eecb7.2a7a4368@aol.com> <3D49BA6B.37759812@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <001801c239b1$63165dc0$cb16bd50@martinjd>

>
> Read Miracle at Midway a few years back. IIRC the torpedo planes were the
ones EXPECTED to take out
> the jap ships. But communication, navigation and planning errors resulted
in the attacks being
> uncoordinated and the TBY's? wound up being slaughtered by the jap CAP and
the ships. When the dive
> bombers showed up there were no planes in a position to oppose their
attack.

That's pretty much what I thought/said...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 17:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Thu Aug  1 16:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
In-Reply-To: <sd495bcc.012@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020801180714.00a7fc80@minn.net>

"Jeff D. Greenly" <jgreenly@hsc.wvu.edu> wrote:
>Would a world that has 80% of its surface covered by water, a dense
>nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, and one moon that is large enough to exert a
>tidal effect tend to be more or less climatically active? Assume
>moderate (terran-normal) vulcanism and a fairly non-polluting early TL
>aqua/agricultural society. Also assume standard polar ice caps and
>rotation around 20 deg. off the plane of the ecliptic. I'll welcome any
>and all comments...

Jeff, I think you may be spending a little too much time at the keyboard.

Go outside, take a walk, relax. Enjoy the weather. ;-)


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
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"From now on, everyone in Wisconsin will be named Wally."
				-- Colin Mockerie
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				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 17:09:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  1 16:09:22 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <200208012308.LWB03316@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>Besides, who is more suicidal in entering such a battle: the 
>fighter crew, some of whom will die in achieving victory; or 
>the capital ship crew, *all* of whom will die *pointlessly*?

Regardless of the ship types, small or large, space combat 
has to be fairly lethal to the crew - if we take the Crew-1 
at its basic form.

If Side A wins the battle, does this mean they attempt to 
salvage some Side B ships?  Is there a nuclear scuttle option 
for capital ships to prevent enemy use?  Or would Side A 
plant nuclear demolition charges on the wrecks of Side B to 
ensure that damaged ships are not recovered?
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 17:20:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug  1 16:20:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <76.201d4ff6.2a7b1285@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c239b3$7174bb80$cb16bd50@martinjd>

>  >Low-end ships so you can do all your jobs within your budget maybe?
>
> I understand that, but there's the question of what your enemy is doing.
> Consider the extreams -- if your goal is to win engagements then you'll
want
> a few expensive capital ships, but if you want to "do all the jobs" then
> you'll want a herd of warm bodies (as it were).  Between the extreams is
the
> balance -- but where is it?  I think it's way over in the "win
engagements"
> side.

Engagemnents of what sort? Enough commerce raiders can cripple your economy
(Battle of the Atlantic etc) despite your excellent battle fleet. If the
engagements you need to win are escort/raider ones, then you need many ships
to cover the area, but ones good enough to beat or deter the raiders.

> If you "cover all the bases" with warm bodies but have to flee every
> time the heavyweight enemy shows up then what good is that?  There is no
> substitute for victory, and to get that victory you need the heavyweights
and
> you need more of them than your enemy.

You need greater concentration of force at the critical point. That can be
done with less ships, better handled and supported.

That said, victory is not necessarily gained by defeating the enemy battle
fleet. If you do that, but he scrubs your industrial worlds with planetary
raider ships, or kills your economy with commerce raiders, then you may not
have won at all.


>
>  >Patrol ships and tankers and whatever you plan to escort the talkers
with.
>
> If by patrol you mean scouts, then yes.  But if you mean general policing
> then I'd think that would be a local police matter and not a fleet matter.

I mean patrol ships to defeat piracy, commerce raiding and smuggling, to
catch enemy intelligence ships and recon vessels, to prevent the stockpiling
of forward supply bases, to gain intelligence, to show the flag and keep
systems in line....

> If I'm an admiral at Jewell looking at 1000 Zhodie capital ship in Cronor,
> and I hear about some pirates at Enope, I'd have to set priorities and ask
> Wochiers to deal with it.  Since imminent war is not a constant threat, if
> some patrols were desperately needed by local governments then I'd send
some
> screening vessels to deal with the problem and then return.

My point is that a fleet needs more than capital ships. You have to HAVE the
anti-pirate ships to be able to do your job.

>
> As for tankers (?), if I had any I'd just keep them with the fleet.

Tankers and logistics ships. They need to move around to be useful; they
have to be replenished and returned to the fleet. Just keeping the fleet in
missiles is a huge undertaking. Logistics vessels, by definition, have to
move around to be any use. But my point, again, was that you have to have
some.

>
> >The USN,
> >for example, has other ships than carriers or attack subs (whichever you
> >consider to be the capital ship). Most navies have some high-end combat
> >ships and low-end workhorses.
>
> That's because of real-world issues regarding weapon load capacities, size
vs
> speed, air / surface / sub environment requirements, hull-shape
requirements,
> and dozens of other factors, make such specialization necessary and
> effective.  These issues don't transfer well to a Traveller universe.  In
> Traveller everyone can go just as fast as the next guy, they all can carry
> the same weapons, there's no limitation on size or hull configuration, and
so
> on.  Would you put an Ageis system on a cargo ship?  You can do it in
> Traveller, and it works.  Would you put ten inch armor on a destroyer?
You
> can do it in Traveller, and it works.  Effective combat ships will all
tend
> towards the same hull/weapons/defenses configuration, and specialization
will
> become mere limitation.

Specialization allows you to afford more ships optimized to a certain role.
You need X patrol ships, Y cruisers, etc. To fulful your low-level
requirements and your fleet screening duties. To be couriers and recon
vessels... by making some of them low-end ships for low-risk misisons, you
have more money available for enough capital ships to do their job.

>
> My Spinward Marches Colonial Fleet has supply vessels, hospital ships,
> minesweepers, and other stuff in addition to its capital vessels.  But
they
> are all sideshows, and minor elements of the fleet -- maybe 5% of the
total
> tonnage.  I intend to win the major engagements first -- I'll clean up any
> leftover messes after I win.

Where will you fight these engagements? How will you make sure you have the
choice of where and when to meet the enemy fleet? What happens if he feints
and threatens with the battle fleet in being and floods your systems with
commerce raiders to break up your logistics chain?





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 17:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Thu Aug  1 16:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <20020801232333.17172.qmail@web11308.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
This tactic is presented not as a desperation move,
but an ordinary one to be implemented if said navy can
put up with it.  To which I responded that 
no fighter pilot community would tolerate it.  Even if
the attacking squadron is originally 1000, after two
capital ships they'll be combat ineffective 
using this tactic, and there will be NO volunteers to
replace them until the tactic 
is discarded.
END QUOTE

But wouldn't more people die if it was cap ship vs.
cap ship?

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://digital.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Digital How To
- Get the best out of your PC!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 17:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  1 16:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <200208012327.LWC00112@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"MJ Dougherty" says
>Where will you fight these engagements? How will you make 
>sure you have the choice of where and when to meet the enemy 
>fleet? What happens if he feints and threatens with the 
>battle fleet in being and floods your systems with
>commerce raiders to break up your logistics chain?

As I believe was mentioned before, those little fighters make 
excellent raiders - You could probably build fairly small, 
fairly cheap ones that would, especially in numbers, lay 
waste to the typical merchant ships.  The ship that carried 
them might not be very large, and could remain far outsystem.

Let me think about this for a while...
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 17:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug  1 16:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <43.f41b3de.2a7a45aa@aol.com> <026001c23992$31805e60$18130050@amoreton>
Message-ID: <007001c239b5$5c29c3e0$cb16bd50@martinjd>

>
>
>
> > >HMS Glow-worm ramming the Admiral Hipper comes to mind. The destroyer's
> >  >mass
> >  >was literally the only thing that might hurt the cruiser, and if she
> wasn't
> >  >hurt then the convoy would be massacred. Her skipper knew his ship
would
> >  >sink; he knew many (but probably not all) of his crew would die. But
the
> >  >decision was made in the face of the enemy, for a clear goal - to save
> >  >hundreds of helpless merchant seamen. Would the crew have accepted an
> >  >Admiralty policy of "we're not giving you torpedoes. You're to close
and
> >  >ram, then sink"? In desperate times, some people actually would. But,
> say,
> >  >in 1934? Nope.
>
> Not to disagree with    the point of the comment but some details on the
> loss of HMS Glowworm  was not escorting a convoy at the time of the battle
> with the Hipper, she had been part of a minelaying sortie off the
Norwegian
> coast she became seperated from her consorts and came across on of the
> Hipper's escrting destroyers. In the prevailing bad weather the Glowworm
was
> forced into close action with the Hipper, the Hipper attempted to run down
> the Glowworm and then the Captain of the Glowworm  Lt Cmdr Gerald G Rooper
> deceided to Ram the Hipper he succeeded adn the impact carried away 120
feet
> of the hippers side plate and let in 528 tons of water , the Hipper
carried
> on with a 4 degree list and accomplished her mission. Many of the
Glowworms
> crew where saved by German vessels not including her captain who drowned
> while being rescued , he was postumously awarded the VC.

OOps. I stand corrected. I was confusing the incident with Sherbrooke's
action vs German cruisers.

> You may perhaps be confusing the Glowworm with 2 British Armed Merchant
> crusiers the Jarvis Bay as the lone escort of a convoy the Jarvis Bay a
> converted liner with about 6 obsolete 6 inch guns when the convoy
> encountered the Pocket Battleship Admiral Scheer heavily armoured and
armed
> with 6 11 inch guns . The Jarvis Bay charged the Admiral Scheer drawing
the
> Fire of the Scheer upon herself allowing the Convoy to scatter to safety
> .her Captain E S F Fegan was awarded the VC posthumously.

I wasn't confusing with the Jervis Bay incident, thanks for pointiong it
out - it stands as another example.

>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 17:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug  1 16:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <e6.2be0ca41.2a7a3051@aol.com> <m3ptx2twnf.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <00ca01c239b8$93015920$cb16bd50@martinjd>

> >
These fighters, BTW.

How are they getting to the battle area? By carrier?

I wonder if I can survive long enough to fly through your fighter screen and
kill the carrier with my meson guns/particle accelerators etc. If I kill
enough carriers, your fighters also die.

Or perhaps I can disrupt your chain of supply enough that you can't replace
the fighters you've lost, or the missiles they expend. Maybe I can avoid
contact until your fighters have to return to base, or until they've thinned
out enough by needing to rotate on station that I can slaughter them. (A
capital ship can remain at combat readiness for a LOT longer than a 2-man
fighter, and doesn't degrade as much over time).

Maybe my escorts and fighter screen can keep my capital ships unscrubbed
while I punch through to kill your carriers and support ships.

We seem to be assuming a straight fight between equal tonnages of fighters
and capital ships, both ready and willing to go. Like when does that sort of
thing happen?

We need also consider mobility, duration of readiness, concentration of
force...etc. If, instead of a "stand-up fight" we consider a longer-term,
wider-area situation - even just the "war-fighting" aspect - then I believe
that a fighter force cannot deliver what the war-fighters need.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:01:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:01:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Energy Blade and Meditation
Message-ID: <3D49CB95.D906C0CF@ameritech.net>

> Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 10:09:06 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Chris Tann <chris_tann@yahoo.com>
>
> Hi all,
>
> I rolled up a character for MT using TravGen Character generation,
> and picked two skills I can't find details on in MT or CT. Can
> someone please let me know what version of Trav they're in? If
> you could also send me a description, that would be great, and
> I'll see if I can convinve my referee to use them...
>
> Meditation
> Energy Blade
>
> I guess Energy Blade relates to a weapon, so details on that
> would be useful too.

These look like a homebrew attempt to use Traveller for a more Star
Warsey kind of game. Perhaps the author of the software in question
knows where they came from.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:02:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:02:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
References: <F137of0aYhHnKZ1nSIz0000ee76@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <00d301c239b9$457629a0$cb16bd50@martinjd>

Because, the airstrikes were cheaper

** And also, perhaps, because the airstikes were first. They could have a go
NOW. If they failed, there was a backup. But waitng for the battle line
might have let the Yamato slip through their fingers - bad weather, faulty
recon, whatever. Or some other crisis (hard to imagine what, but...) might
have drawn the battle line away.

To misquote from the Patton threat - better to do something NOW than
something better LATER


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Hamill)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #847 - 24 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20020731210410.11007.92126.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020802000733.27197.qmail@web21509.mail.yahoo.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

"Message: 8
From: Flykiller@aol.com
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 15:52:03 EDT
Subject: [TML] Acceptable losses
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

 >> 750 / what, 6 years? = 125 per year, about one
every three days.  
hardly
 >> the same as several hundred in one segment of one
line battle in 
one day.
 >
 >What about the whole "over the top" attitude of WWI?
Pouring 
thousands of 
 >lives into suicidal charges for far less gain than
trading a few 
hundred 
 >pilots for a capitol ship? And this was not a
desparation tactic, but 
was 
the 
 >"standard" tactic of the day. Sure I imagine that
the commanders on 
either 
 >side underestimated the potential loss of life, but
several hundred 
lives 
in 
 >one segment of one battle in one day is not as
perposterous as it 
sounds, 
 >when you compare it to infantry losses. How many
marines did the U.S. 
pour 
 >into islands like Iwo Jima and Okinawa in WWII? And
the U.S. was more 
or 
less 
 >winning the war at that stage.

Now that's a good answer and worthy of a good
response.  Let's see how 
well I 
do.

Leading up to WW1 and contributing to it was a vast
and actively 
advanced 
cultural attitude of "God, king and country".  War was
taught as being 
a 
noble and natural thing, and the ancient Greek
attitude of "It is good 
to die 
for one's country" was widely believed.  The concept
of evolution had 
been 
recently introduced, and the idea of competition
between nations and 
peoples 
was very popular.  England was defending its
established empire (on 
which the 
sun never set, a tremendous source of English pride),
Germany was 
determined 
to  expand and find its place in the sun and prove
themselves to the 
world, 
and the French as always felt they were just too
superior to lose.  
National 
pride everywhere was at its peak, and everyone was
ready.  The 
conditions for 
war were as perfect as they will ever be without
scientific 
brainwashing.  
When it came huge numbers said goodby to their mothers
and their 
numerous 
brothers and received the blessings of their priests
and rushed off to 
prove 
their manhood and their courage and their nationality
in this great 
opportunity of their time, thinking that this war
would be similar to 
the 
wars their fathers had fought and celebrated.

It wasn't.  It was a fixed slaughter.  No-one expected
what happened, 
no-one 
could conceive it, and all from the generals to the
privates were slow 
to 
recognize it and accept it.  "Just one more attack,
just one more push, 
and 
we can break through and be like the knights of old." 
Everyone was 
brave, 
but machine guns could mow down entire companies of
the bravest men who 
had 
ever been born.

Their enthusiasm was mowed down as well.  It took a
long time -- the 
enthusiasm had been engendered by generations of
education and cultural 
beliefs and previous survival of other wars --  but
when battles suck 
up 
100,000 men at a pop, for nothing, then even the most
patriotic 
competitors 
realize they're in a suckers game.  In the east the
Russians absorbed 
enormous casualties, then murdered their leaders and
withdrew from the 
war.  
The west, taking fewer casualties and being less
oppressed, still 
rebelled in 
its own way.  The French army actually revolted --
they didn't desert, 
but 
they refused to engage in any offensive action for a
while.  Most 
sections of 
the western front settled down to a routine of firing
off a few shells 
in the 
morning to satisfy their activity reports to their
superiors and then 
relaxing the rest of the day.  In the west battles
began to come only 
after 
enormous preparations and planning, showing the men
that "we can do 
this" 
with monstrously huge artillery bombardments, the
attitude always being 
"One 
more big push and we can finally have the war we
expected."  But it 
never 
happened.

After the war everyone, victors and losers alike, felt
betrayed and 
lied to.  
No-one was happy with the loss of half of an entire
generation.  The 
overriding attitude for decades afterwards was "Never
again."  Neville 
Chamberlain, that so-called appeaser, was a very
popular man in his 
time.

The WW1 over-the-top charge is not really comparable
to the tactic 
under 
discussion.  It was not a standard tactic for that
war, it was an 
inappropriate tactic engendered by ignorance and
generations of 
no-longer-relevant experience.  In the beginning men
did it seeking the 
kind 
of victory they had been led all their lives to
expect, and in the end 
they 
did it out of desperation, rote, and habit, still
seeking that victory.  
When 
(mind you) the _surviving victors_ finally realized
how misled and 
blind they 
had been for four years they turned violently against
what they had 
been 
taught and rejected it for decades.  Many still do to
this day.  NOW 
.... if 
you take hundreds of ambitious highly trained educated
and egotistical 
men 
(pilots are egotistical, they have to be) who are not
there to do grunt 
infantry work, and up-front tell them that their
standard ordinary 
everyday 
tactic will be to hurl themselves to their deaths by
the hundreds in 
the 
hope-against-hope that one or two of them might get
lucky and destroy a 
single capital ship ... well, they're going to race
through that whole 
four-year learning curve in one second and tell you no
way, and your 
pool of 
candidate pilots will dry up immediately.

there's leadership, and then there's armchair
generalship.  armchair 
generals 
that somehow wind up leading troops often get
fragged."

I'm sorry, but this has gotten rediculous. You go
around throwing the term "armchair general" around,
attempting to refute this point, when I don't think
you really know what the point is. The statement was
that at higher tech levels, fighters could damage or
"mission kill" capitol ships, but that the casualties
among the fighters would be high. In an intersteller
nation, with the resources of thousands of worlds,
some with populations many times larger than our own,
do you really think it would be so hard to recruit
vast numbers of qualified pilot types. Especially
since, in the real world, they almost always turn
viable candidates away from pilot training programs in
the USAF, and almost every other military in the
world? And then wash large numbers out, for almost
trivial reasons? It strains credibility to think the
Imperium would not be able to do this, not to mention
their opponents. 
The Zhodani would have no problem getting enough
people with the right manual dexterity and spatial
awareness to qualify. As for their attitude and
"obedience to orders", that is what the Tvarchedl is
for. Guaranteed to risk it all, for the "protection"
of the Consulate. The Vargr? A bit more problematic,
but they, as a race, seem to have even more of a
problem with "macho" a young humans do. I imagine if
you had a couple of charismatic senoir pilots, and
gave the fighters flashy paint jobs you could get a
fairly large number of Vargr to volunteer. And the
Sword Worlds? Almost tailored as a group where this
would be a viable tactic. I imaging you could get
thousands of the lower class youth on your average
Sword World planet to volunteer, to become one of the
"warrior elite", similar to the character played by
George Peppard in "The Blue Max". 
You have to think in terms of percentages, not actual
numbers, to determine your risk of becoming a casualty
in wartime. Many people who would gladly risk
themselves in air combat, even if the chances were
high that they would be injured or killed, would not
do the same in ground combat, even if the odds were
lower that they would be hurt. Something about being
able to influence your fate, if only slightly to the
better, and the sense of control that pilots have,
whether real or not, is a very large factor. 
As for the pilots being unreliable, well, that's what
the computer is for. If they try to sneak off in the
middle of the fight, their system locks itself down,
and returns the fighter to the carrier, or back to the
fight if it's capable of it.

Just my thoughts, 

John
jwdh71@yahoo.com



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] System Gen Help
Message-ID: <20020802001136.17476.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>

Help!

I am doing an extended system generation.  I rolled
for #6 to be the max orbit.  I also rolled for 2
captured planets.  One is in orbit 6.3 and the other
is in 6.0

Orbit 6 and 5 are both SGG's.  4 is the mainworld and
the habitable zone.

Is this legitimate?  Or do I need to move the captured
planet in orbit 6.0 to somewhere else.

Thanks.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
Message-ID: <131.11a94592.2a7b1a91@cs.com>

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In a message dated 8/1/02 3:04:45 PM Central Daylight Time, 
jgreenly@hsc.wvu.edu writes:


> Would a world that has 80% of its surface covered by water, a dense
> nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, and one moon that is large enough to exert a
> tidal effect tend to be more or less climatically active? Assume
> moderate (terran-normal) vulcanism and a fairly non-polluting early TL
> aqua/agricultural society. Also assume standard polar ice caps and
> rotation around 20 deg. off the plane of the ecliptic. I'll welcome any
> and all comments...
> 
> Jeff
> 

Since you've just pretty much described Earth (other than the dense 
atmosphere and the nonpolluting civilization) I'd say that, yes, it would be 
fairly climatically active. Indeed, the dense atmosphere would make for some 
hellacious storms (it might take a bit to get going, but it would take even 
longer to peter out.)

Doug Grimes

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 8/1/02 3:04:45 PM Central Daylight Time, jgreenly@hsc.wvu.edu writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Would a world that has 80% of its surface covered by water, a dense
<BR>nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, and one moon that is large enough to exert a
<BR>tidal effect tend to be more or less climatically active? Assume
<BR>moderate (terran-normal) vulcanism and a fairly non-polluting early TL
<BR>aqua/agricultural society. Also assume standard polar ice caps and
<BR>rotation around 20 deg. off the plane of the ecliptic. I'll welcome any
<BR>and all comments...
<BR>
<BR>Jeff
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>Since you've just pretty much described Earth (other than the dense atmosphere and the nonpolluting civilization) I'd say that, yes, it would be fairly climatically active. Indeed, the dense atmosphere would make for some hellacious storms (it might take a bit to get going, but it would take even longer to peter out.)
<BR>
<BR>Doug Grimes</FONT></HTML>

--part1_131.11a94592.2a7b1a91_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Law (Not at all Re: Patton)
Message-ID: <17f.bfe948b.2a7b2c91@aol.com>

John T. Kwon (aka "I am Weasel!") writes:

>There have been references to Imperial rules concerning 
>warfare - are there really any in canon?  No use of nukes by 
>non-Imperial forces?  Meson guns?  No genocide?  Eh?

The nuke prohibition is the main one stated, with the "massive ecological 
damage" and genocide statements sort of implied.

>The line from Apocalypse Now always made sense to me: 
>arresting someone for violating the rules of war is like 
>handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500.

Ah, but the arresting force in this case is a "High Prejudice" call from the 
Imperial Marines and Navy.  The poor sap who fired the nuke may or may not be 
arrested, but the entire chain of command that put that nuke in his hands, up 
to and including the local imperial noble if he is culpable, is either going 
to be dead due to "resisting arrest" (ie. firing at the landing Marines) or 
brought before the first applicable Imperial Noble in the feudal 
line-of-command...

The Imperium rules the "space between the planets", and the planets *like* it 
that way. Anyone who draws the Imperial Attention down to the surface of the 
planet has, by definition, done a Bad Thing.
("Surface" in this case does not normally include the starport, which is 
legally part of the "space" ruled by the Imperium.)

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEKMCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>
>
>When the Imperium deals with outsiders, all bets are...potentially...off.
However, the nobles of the
>Imperium are loath to abandon their own rules even then, and generally
won't unless the

[deletion]

>What these unwritten rules are is up to you, but personally, I use
>17th and 18th European rules concerning ransoms, hostages, pledges,
>prisoner exchanges, not attacking non-combatants, fighting away from
>civilian areas. and so on. Civilizated states abide by them,
>barbarians don't.

To paraphrase the narrator of Dr. Zhivago, "while the Europeans saw the
Great War as a struggle among the nations of Europe, we [Communists] saw it
as a struggle among Europe's upper classes."  To the extent that the ruling
classes of various interstellar entities recognize commonalities with one
another as rulers that may meet or exceed commonalities of culture with
their own servant classes, they will likely afford one another the
courtesies of conflict among the ruling class.

For example, Imperial nobles in the Spinward Marches are primarily of
Solomani ancestry (at least in my Traveller universe), as are the nobles of
the Sword Worlds.  I would expect them to follow certain conventions that
neither would follow in dealing with Vargr rabble.  The Zhodani, too, have a
set of noble traditions and a defined ruling class.  That might lead to some
amount of gentility in the Frontier Wars.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:55:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:55:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Acceptable losses
References: <20020731151827.2338.75109.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00a501c239bf$a4928e00$ac5d8690@computer>

I've been busy for a couple of days, so I'm replying to an old message:

> Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 11:00:17 -0400
> From: "John T. Kwon"
> There were even cavalrymen at High Wood who rode horses into
> a line of German machineguns who had not been shelled in
> advance.  Sheer butchery - and the only reason they were
> employed there was to demonstrate that there was still a need
> for cavalry.  The Germans in that instance lost zero men.
> The cavalry unit was reduced to a few men in a few minutes.

What's sad about this is that cavalry (mounted infantry) was still a
war-winning force at this time. Check out the Eastern Front and Palestine.
(And the Boer War and Russian Civil War, come to think of it.)

Cavalry was still useful, and widely used in WWII. It only died in droves
when it was misused by the kind of cretins that would run them into
machineguns.

(Of course, mounted charges sometimes worked spectacularly well, too. The
Australian Light Horse did some wonderful things in Palestine in WWI.)

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Parole Given...
Message-ID: <189.bb4aecb.2a7b32ae@aol.com>

Robert Uhl writes:

>
>How did it work historically?  What forms of parole were granted?
>

Depends on who was giving, and who was accepting. The one historical case I'm 
aware of involved an ancestor of mine during the Civil War.  A Southerner, he 
was part of a unit raised in his home state for the purpose of penetrating 
into Northern territory and breaking supply lines by sabotaging train tracks 
and the like. That unit was caught and defeated in detail, as the story goes, 
and a fairly large number of men were taken prisoner, including my ancestor.  
Apparently, the Northern unit was far from its own base, and could ill afford 
to deal with a large number of prisoners. So they sent them home. The family 
history relates that my ancestor was given back his gun and told to "go home, 
the war is over for you."  He did, because he knew they were correct.

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:57:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:57:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <20020801182132.8dc5803e76f94f1f98d7b72b3352174c.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <000001c239bf$a48101d0$6501a8c0@Darla>

Buffaloes did fight Zeroes at Midway.  VMF-221 on Midway was equipped
with 19 F2A-3's, of which 16 were lost on June 4.  

A big problem for the Buffalo was the weight gain due to, among other
things, the addition of armor and self-sealing tanks.  The F2A-1 weighed
3875lb empty, but the F2A-3 had grown to 4732lb empty.  Even with a more
powerful engine, initial climb was reduced to 2290 ft/min vice 3060
ft/min.

The Finnish Air Force did very will (477 kills!) with the 44 F2A-1's
that were delivered to them, but they were flying the lightweight
version of the Buffalo against poorly trained Russian pilots for the
most part.

Tom Barnes

Source: Wagner, American Combat Planes, pp.379-381


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 19:23:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Aug  1 18:23:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Baboon Class Missile Frigate
Message-ID: <00ba01c239c3$a1ad72a0$ac5d8690@computer>

Ship: Baboon
Class: Baboon
Type: Missile Frigate
Architect: Alan Bradley
Tech Level: 15

USP
         FM-A146892-000000-00009-0 MCr 809.580 1 KTons
Bat Bear                       1   Crew: 20
Bat                            1   TL: 15

Cargo: 81.000 Fuel: 480.000 EP: 80.000 Agility: 6 Shipboard Security Detail:
1
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 8.096   Cost in Quantity: MCr 647.664

Designed with Andrew Moffat-Vallance's wonderful High Guard Shipyard.
------------------------------------------

The Baboon Class Missile Frigate is a lightly equipped patrol/escort
vehicle.

In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships.

------------------------------------------

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 19:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Aug  1 18:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonabo Class Missile Frigate
Message-ID: <00d401c239c5$866e20a0$ac5d8690@computer>

Ship: Bonabo
Class: Bonabo
Type: Missile Frigate
Architect: Alan Bradley
Tech Level: 15

USP
         FM-A156892-000000-00009-0 MCr 1,196.140 1.5 KTons
Bat Bear                       1   Crew: 24
Bat                            1   TL: 15

Cargo: 2.000 Fuel: 870.000 EP: 120.000 Agility: 6 Shipboard Security Detail:
2
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 11.961   Cost in Quantity: MCr 956.912

Designed with Andrew Moffat-Vallance's wonderful High Guard Shipyard.
------------------------------------------

 A development of the Baboon Class Missile Frigate, the Bonabo is a lightly
equipped patrol/escort
vehicle, capable of Jump 5.

In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships.

 ------------------------------------------

 Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 19:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug  1 18:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
Message-ID: <20020802015140.32494.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>

Help again.

I'm working with World Tamer's Handbook from TNE and I
need to figure the Orbital Period and Rotation Period
for a couple satellites around a Gas Giant.  Problem
is, I don't know where to get the mass for these
beasts in Standard Masses?

Any clues?

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 20:08:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 19:08:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
In-Reply-To: <sd495bcc.012@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801185752.34d73740@pop.mindspring.com>

At 04:03 PM 8/1/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>Would a world that has 80% of its surface covered by water, a dense
>nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, and one moon that is large enough to exert a
>tidal effect tend to be more or less climatically active? Assume
>moderate (terran-normal) vulcanism and a fairly non-polluting early TL
>aqua/agricultural society. Also assume standard polar ice caps and
>rotation around 20 deg. off the plane of the ecliptic. I'll welcome any
>and all comments...

Need a few more data points:  What is the average temperture?  How long is
the day?
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 20:08:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 19:08:47 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
In-Reply-To: <B96ECAA0.67370%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200208011810.LVR04270@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801190225.470fd9fe@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:23 AM 8/1/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>on 8/1/02 11:10 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

>> I bet that fighting hole full of cold rainwater I stepped
>> into near LZ Aardvark was put there by Doug.  Thanks, Doug.

Only the best for my friends!  And he, I walked into my fair share of those.

>The wonderful bond of shared experience (misery).  We can all sit down
>together, drink beer, and share tales of the fine accommodations of Harmony
>Church, the facilities at AO Eagle, the pleasures of Columbus Georgia.
>Differentiated only by the uniform we wore, or the color of our boots and
>whether we took the SQT or the POIQT.

I went through Sand Hill, where the drills left mints on our pillows, but
much the same thing.. ah, the nights I spent on Victory Drive.. (we called
it VD Drive for obvious reasons.)
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Embrace Fascism.    The uniforms look cool


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 20:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Thu Aug  1 19:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Baboon Class Missile Frigate
Message-ID: <200208020215.g722FLw20931@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com>
>Subject: [TML] Baboon Class Missile Frigate
...
>         FM-A146892-000000-00009-0 MCr 809.580 1 KTons
>Bat Bear                       1   Crew: 20
>Bat                            1   TL: 15
>
>Cargo: 81.000 Fuel: 480.000 EP: 80.000 Agility: 6 Shipboard Security Detail: 1
>Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
...
>The Baboon Class Missile Frigate is a lightly equipped patrol/escort vehicle.
>
>In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships.

  <QUIBBLE> Not really? By TL E or F dampers make these ships just
too inefficient, IIRC?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 20:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 19:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
Message-ID: <d3.f702ca6.2a7b4ae9@aol.com>

 >including not commenting on how a
 >Washington police officer can be hired with felony convictions on his/her
 >record, provided that none were more recent than ten years ago at the time
 >of application.

Well, to be fair, if they didn't follow this hiring policy then could they 
find anyone to hire?

 >Nor will I criticize the voters of that city for being stupid enough to
 >re-elect as mayor a convicted drug dealer, and then expect the tone of the
 >city to be anything other than what it is.

Oh, but they're not stupid.  They knew what the tone of the city would be.  
That's why they voted for him.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 20:43:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Thu Aug  1 19:43:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <200208011145.LVF00804@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEGKEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

Flykiller says
>Yeah, I've seen 'em.  True story:  two female reservists on
>the gallery deck, looking lost and bored and a little
>nervous.  One of 'em suddenly brightens, turns to the other
>and says, "Let's go to the ship's mall!"  The other lights
>up with happiness and they head for the ladder down to the
>store.  It was almost more than I could take.
>

 Sounds like fairly typical 1980's era Navy reservists to me. Report aboard
for two weeks and spend most of your time at the exchange and commissary
soaking up those good Navy benefits. (Most of them could actually afford the
reduced price expensive junk in the exchange that most active duty sailors
couldn't. You know like imported German nick nacks and giant globes with
bars inside. And expensive stereos and electronics. Most lower level
enlisted members have long ago found Wal-Mart and Kmart vastly undersells
the Exchange.)

I never got a decent days work from a reservist, until the Gulf War when
they were called up for six months and found that the contract they sign
actually meant they had leave their cushy high paying job and really be a
sailor. Then most of them straitened out. A few still tried to duck their
duty. I found that this had nothing to do with their gender.

In the active service I've know many fine female sailors who were competent
technicians and fine seaman. And more than a few who were more competent
leaders than many of the critics who bemoaned the posting of woman to ships.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 20:46:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Thu Aug  1 19:46:07 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <3D49DF3B.FDFEAFD6@ameritech.net>

> From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
> Date: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 11:41 pm
>

<snip>

> For JTAS subscribers, the recently-completed starship design 
> contest (Contest #10) had some excellent hospital ships, albeit 
> mostly using design sequences other than HG2.  Note, though, that 
> the winning design (not mine, sad to say) was built using HG2.

That design would have been mine. And IMHO it wasn't the best design in
that contest. I won, I believe, because of my shameless misappropriation
of 20th century american pop culture icons. (I must have been channeling
Dave Nilsen)

All of which reminds me that I have to firm up the details for the next
design contest.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 21:16:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 20:16:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller HIDING
Message-ID: <124.1460d565.2a7b535d@aol.com>

 >>Could be.  Let's find out.  Show me.  Can you handle it?
 >
 >It amuses me far more to watch you beg.

Yes, basking in verbally-asserted superiority is indeed much more pleasant 
than risking actual defeat.  But of course indulging in this makes you a 
coward.

"Sun Tzu said, 'The King likes only empty words.  He is not capable of 
putting them into practice.' "


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 21:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Thu Aug  1 20:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <99.2a2d475a.2a779a93@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4A0109.D48E52E6@pobox.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> >Also, does a crippled fighter neccessarily mean dead crewman?
>
> using ct tables, a factor 9 salvo against a 90 ton fighter results in 9
> critical hits, of which a roll of 2 or 10 ( 1/36 + 3/36 ) represent immediate
> crew death (we'll ignore the presence or absence of rescue vessels, the
> consequences to a pilot of loss of power in his ship, etc).  this results in
> a ( 1 - ( 32 / 36 ) ^ 9 ) or a 65.4% chance of crew death upon being hit.  I
> don't know what typical fighter-pilot survival rates are, but I'll bet that's
> comparable to those of japanese zero's in ww2.

MJ Dougherty wrote: (in a separate message)

> ... surviving to carry out your
> mission is necessary. Surviving to do it again is good. But surviving to go
> home and collect the medals is what every sailor wants. And he wants to KNOW
> that measures have been taken to ensure he will. In almost all situations,
> force survivability is necessary to morale.

The pilot casualty rates you quote above are much too high, IMHO.  They are only
true if the attacker is using TL15 100-ton meson gun bays or if the fighter is
unarmored.
Fighters IMTU carry maximum armor.  This would reduce the non-meson crits listed
above from 9 to 2, with a corresponding increase in crew survival.  Meson hits
would still be Very Bad, but you can design an attack boat of less than 200 tons
that a TL15 capital ship has to roll a 10 on 2d6 to hit.  So, approximately, for
every 6 100-ton meson bays, you get one mission-kill per turn, but the crew
mostly survives.  Not bad odds.  BTW, you get another kill per turn for every two
spinal mounts.  These kills are probably not survivable.

I agree that a sub-100dT fighter cannot carry a weapon which can hurt a TL15
capital ship, mostly because of the difference in computer size.  This is why the
"fighters" in the smoke test were actually 1000dT boats with factor-9 missile
bays.

200-ton attack boats and 1kton missile boats are good if the target has armor
factor 13 or less.  You have to go to a 2kton boat to kill vessels (regardless of
size) which have armor greater than 13. All of these vessels are very survivable.

I'll post a couple of designs.

WKH









From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 22:08:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 21:08:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
In-Reply-To: <d3.f702ca6.2a7b4ae9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B96F53B0.67526%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 7:39 PM, Flykiller@aol.com at Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>> including not commenting on how a
>> Washington police officer can be hired with felony convictions on his/her
>> record, provided that none were more recent than ten years ago at the time
>> of application.
> 
> Well, to be fair, if they didn't follow this hiring policy then could they
> find anyone to hire?

But they couldn't carry a gun.  They'd be a prohibited person under Federal
law, unless they had filed for and received a 'relief from disability' from
the ATF.  And congress has stopped funding this program, so none are being
done.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 22:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Thu Aug  1 21:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <200208020409.g7249Rw09382@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Flykiller@aol.com
>Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 20:25:44 EDT
>Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller 
...
>>  I'm curious as to your evidence for capital ships being unviable,
>>at least at TL's C & D. Assuming that armour is substantial, then
>>larger warships can achieve real utility from mounting repulsors
>>(rules lawyering aside), and their PAWS allow them to handle said
>>frigates (unless Armour J Munchkin-mobiles) the way that some are
>>suggesting fighters would never be allowed to be used.

  As an aside, why are you not discussing the frigates that you 
had posited as the sole class of warship in the post to which I
was responding?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 22:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Thu Aug  1 21:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] max hull size
Message-ID: <200208020411.g724Baw09689@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller 
...
>Again, I'm assuming CT.  Let's see .... at tech 12, max hull size is 199,999 

  <1 MT (USP X) per HG2, pps. 26 & 28.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 22:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 21:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Warships
Message-ID: <36.2b621a09.2a7b633b@aol.com>

>USP
>         BK-H9059J3-L59005-55545-0 MCr 5,624.770 8 KTons
>Bat Bear             1   1 15118   Crew: 110
>Bat                  1   1 15118   TL: 15
>
>Cargo: 170 Fuel: 720.000 EP: 720 Agility: 5 Shipboard Security Detail: 8 

Thanks.  I really do appreciate it.  If I may, I'd like to ask some questions 
(assuming CT and tech 15 in the defender).

1)  If you have armor M, then why do you have a repulsor bay and sand casters?
2)  This vessel could be agility 0 and still be completely immune to all but 
spinal meson gun fire.  Meson screen 3 would be sufficient to completely stop 
any non-spinal-mount meson guns. Since you make it agility 5 and not just 1 
or 2, and give it meson screen 9 (spending all that money on power plant), 
you must expect it to encounter spinal-sized meson gun fire.  It cannot 
survive against such fire, nor can it retaliate.  CT makes no provision for 
the identification of the location of targets that are not out in the open, 
and I assume that big meson guns will be buried, so what rule do you use that 
allows it to shoot back?  the vessel here cannot penetrate meson screen 1 
anyway, so I assume that if there are any large defended meson guns on this 
planet you will be assigning other ships to try and kill them first.  If the 
other ships are that good, then why exactly do you need this one?  And if it 
only deals with mop-up, why give it agility 5 and meson screen 9?
3)  The vessel obviously relies on fuel shuttles (is the parent craft 
streamlined?), which will either be obtaining fuel from the planet oceans or 
from gas giants that are usually, what, a week away.  If the enemy has any 
hidden SDB's nearby you'll have to detail escorts for each shuttle, and 
you'll have to be almost 100% certain that such escorts will be able to drive 
off these SDB's or any raiders that show up.  The parent craft will also 
require guarding, which will require more escorts.  It seems to me that it 
would be more efficient to just pack all these escorts, carriers, and riders 
into a few tougher vessels.

It seems to me that this is a fairly large investment in material that is 
useful only after the enemy fleet is no longer a threat.  If your fleet is 
there guarding it then there's no reason to build it, and if your fleet is 
not there then you must have zero expectation of any significant enemy fleet 
elements showing up.

This individual vessel is tough and cheap, but I don't see the context that 
will make it appropriate.  Could you elaborate on the context?  Thanks.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 22:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Thu Aug  1 21:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat
References: <00ba01c239c3$a1ad72a0$ac5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <3D4A0BEB.49706A1F@pobox.com>

Ship: Pebble
Class: Pebble
Type: Attack Boat
Architect: WKH
Tech Level: 15

USP
         BA-1806E81-G00000-05000-0 MCr 250.607 185 Tons
Bat Bear                    1      Crew: 2
Bat                         1      TL: 15

Cargo: 0.350 Frozen Watch Emergency Low: 1 Fuel: 25.900 EP: 25.900 Agility: 6

Architects Fee: MCr 2.506   Cost in Quantity: MCr 200.485

Detailed Description

COMMENTS
The Pebble was designed to be hard to hit and hard to kill.  It combines a
planetoid hull (AF18) with a model 8 computer and yet retains an agility rating
of
6.  It packs a powerful short-range offensive punch by utilizing the most
advanced fusion gun technology available.

In case of crew casualty, a backup pilot/gunner can be carried as a frozen
watch.  An emergency low berth can accomodate the entire crew if the boat is
disabled.

Pebbles are often found operating in conjunction with Baboon class missile
frigates.

In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships which have an armor
factor of 13 or less.

HULL
185.000 tons standard, 2,590.000 cubic meters, Planetoid Configuration

CREW
Pilot, Gunner

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 6G Manuever, Power plant-14, 25.900 EP, Agility 6

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/8 Computer

HARDPOINTS
1 Hardpoint

ARMARMENT
1 Dual Fusion Gun Turret in 1 Battery (Factor-5)

DEFENCES
Armoured Hull (Factor-16)

CRAFT
None

FUEL
25.900 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
No Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
1.0 Stateroom, 1 Low Berth, 1 Emergency Low Berth, 0.350 Ton Cargo

COST
MCr 253.113 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 2.506), MCr 200.485 in Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
55 Weeks Singly, 44 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
The Pebble was designed to be hard to hit and hard to kill.  It combines a
planetoid hull (AF18) with a model 8 computer and yet retains an agility rating
of
6.  It packs a powerful short-range offensive punch by utilizing the most
advanced fusion gun technology available.

In case of crew casualty, a backup pilot/gunner can be carried as a frozen
watch.  An emergency low berth can accomodate the entire crew if the boat is
disabled.

Pebbles are often found operating in conjunction with Baboon class missile
frigates.

In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships which have an armor
factor of 13 or less.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 22:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Aug  1 21:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption (was: warship optimization)
Message-ID: <F176AUfKRfcjcMzfoV100024006@hotmail.com>

From: Bill Hopper <whopper@pobox.com>

     "I agree that a sub-100dT fighter cannot carry a weapon which can hurt 
a TL15 capital ship, mostly because of the difference in computer size.  
This is why the "fighters" in the smoke test were actually 1000dT boats with 
factor-9 missile bays."


Mr. Hopper,

     The fighter designs used in the smoke tests I was referring to were 
sub-100Ton types.  They were also run at TL12.  Here are the USPs:

FM-0306G51-000000-00002-1 MCr 138.525 50 tons
Batt bear 1 Crew; 1
Batt 1 TL: 12
Cargo: 1.000 Fuel: 8.000 EP: 1.000 Agility: 6

          and

FG-0306G51-000000-04000-0 MCr 138.275 50 tons
Batt Bear 1 Crew: 1
Batt 1 TL: 12
Cargo: 0.00 Fuel; 0.00 EP: 0.00 Agility: 2

     Please note, these designs were pretty much bare bones exercises, i.e. 
cram the weapons and computer aboard, hang the rest.  They could have easily 
been armored, up powered, and run to 99 dTons.  The FG especially could use 
a higher agility.

     "200-ton attack boats and 1kton missile boats are good if the target 
has armor factor 13 or less.  You have to go to a 2kton boat to kill vessels 
(regardless of size) which have armor greater than 13. All of these vessels 
are very survivable."

     Oh yes, I very much agree with you there, especially in the upper TL 
reaches.  Battleriders work, as long as you can protect the tender!

     "I'll post a couple of designs."

     Please do, then perhaps Mr. Flykiller could run them against his 
Spinward Marches Colonial (sic) Fleet.  Without those goofy crew skills 
level house rules too?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 22:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 21:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <m3ofclg93m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net> writes:
>
> > Sure, not now: a video game, even a military simulator, is simply
> > not possible of fully-simulating flight, combat &c.  But thousands
> > of years in the future that's not an issue.  If you can damp
> > inertia and fake gravity, you can fake the motions and sensations
> > of combat.  If you can broadcast in 3D, you can generate a
> > photo-realistic world outside the phony cockpit windows.  The only
> > thing you _cannot_ simulate is the fear of death--and real
> > military training cannot AFAIK do that either; only actual flight
> > time can do that.
> 
> "I'm sorry, but it appears that Cadet Uhl was killed by the
> simulator.  In the simulation, he accelerated his fighter to very
> high speed, then crashed it into the drives of an enemy battleship.
> The simulation ran its gravitics to simulate the crash and increased
> the temperature to simulate the fire when his L-Hyd tanks exploded.
> The combination of being crushed and burned caused injuries that we
> were unable treat effectively.  Next!"

You really think that a computer can be powerful enough to simulate
all that and yet not have safeguards to prevent death?  I would
imagine that it'd be just like a modern simulator: screw up and you
get the `shatter screen.'

Although it could also be used to give you a nasty shock or something
every time you screw up...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Mit den Frauen ist das wie mit den Firewalls: was [...] am meisten
Sicherheit garantiert und am wenigsten Probleme macht, ist immer das,
was zum speziellen Fall am besten passt.
                        --Urs Traenkner in de.comp.security.firewall

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 22:52:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 21:52:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat
In-Reply-To: <3D4A0BEB.49706A1F@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEKPIJAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Ship: Pebble
Class: Pebble
Type: Attack Boat
Architect: WKH
Tech Level: 15

USP
         BA-1806E81-G00000-05000-0 MCr 250.607 185 Tons
Bat Bear                    1      Crew: 2
Bat                         1      TL: 15

Cargo: 0.350 Frozen Watch Emergency Low: 1 Fuel: 25.900 EP: 25.900 Agility:
6

Architects Fee: MCr 2.506   Cost in Quantity: MCr 200.485

Detailed Description

COMMENTS
The Pebble was designed to be hard to hit and hard to kill.  It combines a
planetoid hull (AF18) with a model 8 computer and yet retains an agility
rating
of
6.  It packs a powerful short-range offensive punch by utilizing the most
advanced fusion gun technology available.

In case of crew casualty, a backup pilot/gunner can be carried as a frozen
watch.  An emergency low berth can accomodate the entire crew if the boat is
disabled.

Pebbles are often found operating in conjunction with Baboon class missile
frigates.

In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships which have an armor
factor of 13 or less.

HULL
185.000 tons standard, 2,590.000 cubic meters, Planetoid Configuration

CREW
Pilot, Gunner

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 6G Manuever, Power plant-14, 25.900 EP, Agility 6

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/8 Computer

HARDPOINTS
1 Hardpoint

ARMARMENT
1 Dual Fusion Gun Turret in 1 Battery (Factor-5)

DEFENCES
Armoured Hull (Factor-16)

CRAFT
None

FUEL
25.900 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
No Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
1.0 Stateroom, 1 Low Berth, 1 Emergency Low Berth, 0.350 Ton Cargo

COST
MCr 253.113 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 2.506), MCr 200.485 in
Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
55 Weeks Singly, 44 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
The Pebble was designed to be hard to hit and hard to kill.  It combines a
planetoid hull (AF18) with a model 8 computer and yet retains an agility
rating
of
6.  It packs a powerful short-range offensive punch by utilizing the most
advanced fusion gun technology available.

In case of crew casualty, a backup pilot/gunner can be carried as a frozen
watch.  An emergency low berth can accomodate the entire crew if the boat is
disabled.

Pebbles are often found operating in conjunction with Baboon class missile
frigates.

In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships which have an armor
factor of 13 or less.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Heh

Great minds and all that.  I sent this out for the Rodeo on
June 20.

jml


Permission granted to post as part of the TML Rodeo

Lest I forget, these ships were made using Mr.
Moffatt-Vallance's excellent High Guard Shipyard.

The Brilliant Pebble is one of the current Provincial
fleet elements protecting Glisten.  built out of slag
the tunneling that constantly is generated by the tunneling
that shapes the belt cities.

With 6 g acceleration, a 100 ton Particle Accelerator bay,
and very powerful computers the Pebble is a danger even to
capital ships, while it's armored rocky hull, back up computers,
marine contingent, and frozen watch render it a tenacious
scrapper

Ship: Glisten RX11-113
Class: Brilliant Pebble
Type: Monitor
Architect: jml
Tech Level: 15

USP
         PP-A8068J2-B00400-00906-0 MCr 1,134.444 1.6 KTons
Bat Bear                     1 1   Crew: 57
Bat                          1 1   TL: 15

Cargo: 44.000 Frozen Watch (x2) Fuel: 256.000 EP: 128.000 Agility: 1 Ships
Troops: 2 Marines: 25
Craft: 1 x 40T Pinnace
Backups: 1 x Model/8fib Computer 1 x Bridge

Architects Fee: MCr 11.344   Cost in Quantity: MCr 907.555


Detailed Description

TONNAGE
1,600.000 tons standard, 22,400.000 cubic meters, Planetoid Configeration

CREW
11 Officers, 21 Ratings, 25 Marines

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 6G Manuever, Power plant-8, 128.000 EP, Agility 1

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/9fib Computer
1 Backup Bridge, 1 Model/8fib Backup Computer

HARDPOINTS
1 100-ton bay, 6 Hardpoints

ARMARMENT
1 100-ton Particle Accelerator Bay (Factor-9), 6 Triple Missile Turrets in 1
Battery (Factor-6)

DEFENCES
Nuclear Damper (Factor-4), Armoured Hull (Factor-8)

CRAFT
1 40.000 ton Pinnace (Crew of 2)

FUEL
32.000 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 60 days endurance)
No Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
32.0 Staterooms, 60 Low Berths, 44.000 Tons Cargo

COST
MCr 1,145.788 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 11.344), MCr 907.555 in
Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
128 Weeks Singly, 103 Weeks in Quantity


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 22:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Aug  1 21:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Civility (was Re: warship HIDING)
Message-ID: <F60mzsZCnT9An4eVh2V00024324@hotmail.com>

From: Flykiller@aol.com

     "Yes, basking in verbally-asserted superiority is indeed much more 
pleasant than risking actual defeat.  But of course indulging in this makes 
you a (description deleted by LEW)"


Sir,

     This post was completely uncalled for, in very poor taste, and little 
more than flame bait.  Posting such a message was definitely beneath you.  I 
cannot believe you would normally behave in such a manner.  Passions may be 
running high on both sides of this discussion, but that doesn't mean we need 
to lower ourselves and make personal attacks.
     All of us on the List have been guilty of such behavior in the past, 
myself especially, but we all also try to conduct ourselves in as civil a 
manner as possible.  Because we're human, sometimes we fail.  However, we 
all still try.
     Your opinions and views have kicked off quite an interesting thread 
here on the List.  I have found your responses to other threads interesting 
also.  However, posting a message such as the one in question will do little 
more than earn you a place in many members' kill files.  Your posts, 
observations, and opinions deserve a better fate than that.
     I look forward to your future posts on a variety of threads and feel 
certain that you will conduct yourself in a truly civil manner.


     Sincerely,
     William R. Cameron, aka Larsen E. Whipsnade

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 23:36:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Thu Aug  1 22:36:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
In-Reply-To: <3D4A0109.D48E52E6@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEMJELAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Why would a warship allocate a factor 9 missile salvo, which as I understand
represents a lot of missiles against a single fighter? I know the HG rules
do the combat this way but it makes little sense. On the bridge, "commander
launch fifty missiles at that fighter..."


If people want fighters to be more effective in a high tech environment just
reduce the effectiveness of the point defence systems.

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 00:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 23:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] juries
Message-ID: <1a8.614142f.2a7b7b13@aol.com>

 >Maybe the concept of men, not so much laws, is not a bad 
 >one.  Sure, we could say that on Regina, there's no specific 
 >law against writing your ledgers that way.  On the other 
 >hand, if news gets out, and there's enough related heat (such 
 >as massive corporate collapse), the Duke of Regina will be 
 >sending you a personal invitation to the prison hulk.

What if he doesn't wait until there's enough "related heat"?  What if he 
doesn't wait for any heat at all?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 00:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 23:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <11c.14c7f23e.2a7b7e6b@aol.com>

 >Larsen raises several excellent points. I thought I would chime in,
 >briefly, because I am of the opinion that Mr. Fly simply doesn't get it
 >despite what the true warrior types on the TML have been (very
 >patiently) explaining. TML hasn't been this interesting in a while!
 >
 >One need only to look at the Battle of the Atlantic to see how much of
 >an effect esprit de corps and loyalty go towards men willingly going
 >into grave danger. I may be slightly off on my numbers, but the U-Boat
 >service saw the highest losses of ANY service branch, across all
 >nationalities during WW II. Something like 80% of all U-boatmen were KIA
 >towards the end of the war, with the average life expectancy being a
 >week.

A week?

I posted an adequate answer to that particular example.  No-one responded to 
it at all, patiently or otherwise.  Not that anyone has to, but ....

In reference to the original post that started all this, I don't know what 
else to say, 'cept I'm glad all these true warriors aren't in charge of 
making making major procurement and force deployment decisions.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 00:23:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 23:23:08 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <9f.2b1fbbad.2a7b7f21@aol.com>

 >BTW, I think some of the best Navy chow to be had is at RTC Great
 >Lakes.

What are you talking about?  They put chopped onions in the jello!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 01:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 00:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
Message-ID: <19e.6479ce5.2a7b8a94@aol.com>

 >Would a world that has 80% of its surface covered by water, a dense
 >nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, and one moon that is large enough to exert a
 >tidal effect tend to be more or less climatically active? Assume
 >moderate (terran-normal) vulcanism and a fairly non-polluting early TL
 >aqua/agricultural society. Also assume standard polar ice caps and
 >rotation around 20 deg. off the plane of the ecliptic. I'll welcome any
 >and all comments...

I've often wondered along those lines.  If you look at our system the size 2 
moon is at the very limit (book 6) of its possible orbit, yet when generating 
traveller systems it is quite possible to have much larger moons orbiting 
much closer to their world.  The tides would be huge.  I would imagine there 
would be very few costal cities throughout most systems, because they'd be 
flooded by 50 foot tides.

As I understand it weather is caused mostly by heat transfer across a 
planet's surface.  Since your world has a 20 degree axial tilt then I would 
think its weather would be about comparable to Terra's.  If denser atmosphere 
holds more heat then it should be more active.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 01:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 00:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <151.11ceca62.2a7b936d@aol.com>

 >The Germans, and
 >particularly the Japanese were horribly dehumanized.  We made our enemies
 >into monsters so then it was OK to exterminate them.

Seems to be part of the human condition.  Not only is the enemy an inhuman 
monster and responsible for any and all evil, _we_ are pure as the 
wind-driven snow in any and all circumstances.  "It's Al Qaida's fault we 
bombed a wedding party!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 01:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 00:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <41.21182628.2a7b9569@aol.com>

 >"A mediocre plan executed immediately is better than a briliant plan
 >executed later."

Good post.  I always thought the quote was "A good plan now is better than a 
perfect plan later."  I like it better that way anyway.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 02:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 01:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <de.2af56363.2a7b992a@aol.com>

 >> >HMS Glow-worm ramming the Admiral Hipper comes to mind. The destroyer's
 >>  >mass
 >>  >was literally the only thing that might hurt the cruiser, and if she
 >wasn't
 >>  >hurt then the convoy would be massacred. Her skipper knew his ship would
 >>  >sink; he knew many (but probably not all) of his crew would die. But the
 >>  >decision was made in the face of the enemy, for a clear goal - to save
 >>  >hundreds of helpless merchant seamen. Would the crew have accepted an
 >>  >Admiralty policy of "we're not giving you torpedoes. You're to close and
 >>  >ram, then sink"? In desperate times, some people actually would. But,
 >say,
 >>  >in 1934? Nope.
 > 
 >Not to disagree with    the point of the comment but some details on the
 >loss of HMS Glowworm  was not escorting a convoy at the time of the battle
 >with the Hipper, she had been part of a minelaying sortie off the Norwegian
 >coast she became seperated from her consorts and came across on of the
 >Hipper's escrting destroyers.

Here's the url for the true story.  Nice site.

http://www.hmsglowworm.org.uk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 02:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Pronto)
Date: Fri Aug  2 01:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Civility (was Re: warship HIDING)
In-Reply-To: <F60mzsZCnT9An4eVh2V00024324@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000201c239fc$f5e3bd00$1202a8c0@RodgerYoung>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com 
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Larsen 
> E. Whipsnade
> Sent: August 1, 2002 9:54 PM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] Civility (was Re: warship HIDING)
> 
> 
> 
>      This post was completely uncalled for, in very poor 
> taste, and little 
> more than flame bait.  Posting such a message was definitely 
> beneath you.

<Deleted, you wrote it, you know what was here.  :)   >

>      I look forward to your future posts on a variety of 
> threads and feel 
> certain that you will conduct yourself in a truly civil manner.
> 
> 
>      Sincerely,
>      William R. Cameron, aka Larsen E. Whipsnade
> 

Excellently done!   Bravo!   You are truly a civilized person.

Pronto
AKA Brian Taylor



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 02:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Edward Swatschek)
Date: Fri Aug  2 01:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <200208011817.LVR05093@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208011817.LVR05093@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020802083028.LLOT14925.priv-edtnes04.telusplanet.net@there>

On Thursday 01 August 2002 11:17, John T. Kwon wrote:
>>
> There have been references to Imperial rules concerning
> warfare - are there really any in canon?  No use of nukes by
> non-Imperial forces?  Meson guns?  No genocide?  Eh?

The Rules were established early in CT (Sup11: Library Data N-Z, Striker,  
et al).  

First, they apply to conflict within the Imperium, and aim to maintain it's 
economic & military well-being.

The conflict should be local to a single system, though extra-planetary 
'assistance' is allowed within limits.  

They are unwritten so as to prevent formal precedent from preventing 
Imperial intervention.

"...use or possesion of nuclear weapons, if discovered, will almost 
certainly trigger Imperial intervention.  The Imperium alone retains rights 
to such weapons ... certain other weapons (chemical and bacteriological 
agents, and meson accelerators, for example) are strictly controlled, 
although they are not subject to the sweeping restrictions placed on 
nuclear weapons."



-- 
Edward Swatschek - edjs@bitslayer.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 02:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 01:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <200208012327.LWC00112@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <000201c23a02$bf4aef60$0112bd50@martinjd>

> "MJ Dougherty" says
> >Where will you fight these engagements? How will you make
> >sure you have the choice of where and when to meet the enemy
> >fleet? What happens if he feints and threatens with the
> >battle fleet in being and floods your systems with
> >commerce raiders to break up your logistics chain?
>
> As I believe was mentioned before, those little fighters make
> excellent raiders - You could probably build fairly small,
> fairly cheap ones that would, especially in numbers, lay
> waste to the typical merchant ships.  The ship that carried
> them might not be very large, and could remain far outsystem.
>
> Let me think about this for a while...

Raider-carriers are an excellent idea. I wonder if escort carriers could
counter them. Or if they could carry enough fighters to scrub a decent light
cruiser before it closed and killed the carrier. Or....




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 02:49:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 01:49:04 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <45.1b1ae706.2a7ba15e@aol.com>

 >> ah yes, military spending.  but have you noticed that money is not at all
 >> the limiting factor in naval construction?  and even if it were, it's not
 >> the factor you make it out to be.  in the united states today, 250 million
 >> citizens contribute $300 billion or so annually in defense spending --
 >> that's $1200 from each man, woman, child, and illegal alien.  trillion
 >> credit squadron states that each imperial citizen contributes an average 
of
 >> 500Cr towards their navy -- I don't think that that is at all 
unreasonable,
 >> especially given that their military is primarily naval.  if anything it's
 >> too low, but it's still enough to allow the spinward marches to pay for
 >> about 2500 200kton battleships.  that's a lot of hardware, enough to put,
 >> what, ten battleships in each and every imperial spinward marches system. 
 >> what significant optimization can be had here?  there's some, but not 
much.
 >
 > hmmm... I must examine this .... after applying exchange rates and 
figuring 
 >the costs of support facilities, supplies and auxiliaries ( not to mention 
 >graft and 400$ hammers)

I'd like to hear what you find.  When I researched the Spinward Marches and 
realized what was really going on it was quite eye-opening.  So many ideas, 
even canon ideas, went out the window.

 >> as an aside, yeah, I suppose so.  but I subscribe completely to gary 
 >> gygax's idea:  "More 'realistic' combat systems could certainly have been
 >> included here, but they have no real part in a game for a group of players
 >> having an exciting adventure."
 >
 >Here is the schwerpunkt.

Isn't that a great word?

 >Do people play traveller as a wargame...or do they 
 >play traveller as a RPG.?

For me it's an RPG, but each one leads to the other.

 >How wonderful that there exists a game that can do 
 >both well.

Completely agree.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 03:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 02:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <m3ofclg93m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <004301c23a04$8cdeff60$0112bd50@martinjd>

> You really think that a computer can be powerful enough to simulate
> all that and yet not have safeguards to prevent death?  I would
> imagine that it'd be just like a modern simulator: screw up and you
> get the `shatter screen.'
>
> Although it could also be used to give you a nasty shock or something
> every time you screw up...

There are simulator drawbacks - "simulator sickness", which is kind of
psychosomatic motion sickness, can begin to manifest itself on real missions
(or cause them to not do certain things because they expect sim sickness).
Pilots sometimes begin to develop habits that optimise their performance in
the simulator rather than in the real environment. And they can develop a
habit of recklessness since they can't die, which is bad if carried over, or
sometimes evaporates in a mist of nerves because suddenly they CAN.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 03:03:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 02:03:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <99.2a2d475a.2a779a93@aol.com> <3D4A0109.D48E52E6@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <005801c23a04$ec770b20$0112bd50@martinjd>

> I agree that a sub-100dT fighter cannot carry a weapon which can hurt a
TL15
> capital ship, mostly because of the difference in computer size.  This is
why the
> "fighters" in the smoke test were actually 1000dT boats with factor-9
missile
> bays.
>

Huh? 1000 tons is an escort, or a frigate or something. But certainly not a
fighter.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 03:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri Aug  2 02:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
References: <20020802062003.11635.24330.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D4A4D4B.3C4D1955@ameritech.net>

> Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 18:51:40 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com>
>
> Help again.
> 
> I'm working with World Tamer's Handbook from TNE and I
> need to figure the Orbital Period and Rotation Period
> for a couple satellites around a Gas Giant.  Problem
> is, I don't know where to get the mass for these
> beasts in Standard Masses?
> 
> Any clues?

I couldn't find that info in any TNE source. There are charts for that
in "World Builder's Handbook" for MT. Assuming for the moment that you
don't have access to that very worthwhile publication I can give you
some typical figures from that source.

Smallest SGG radius = 20
Average SGG radius ~= 60
Highest SGG radius = 100

Smallest LGG radius = 110
Average LGG radius ~= 175
Highest LGG radius = 240

Lowest GG density = .1
Average GG density ~= .21
Highest GG density = .3

Send me a private email if you want the full charts. (I just don't have
the energy to type all of it up at the moment)

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 03:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 02:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <151.11ceca6f.2a7ba7cc@aol.com>

 >> Yes, with a huge Japanese fleet threatening their homeland and only them
 >> standing between the yellow peril and their families.  It was not, 
however, a
 >> standard tactic, employed "because they'll tolerate it".
 > 
 >Read Miracle at Midway a few years back. IIRC the torpedo planes were the 
ones EXPECTED to take out
 >the jap ships. But communication, navigation and planning errors resulted 
in the attacks being
 >uncoordinated and the TBY's? wound up being slaughtered by the jap CAP and 
the ships. When the dive
 >bombers showed up there were no planes in a position to oppose their attack.

This example doesn't make your point.  They wound up doing what they did 
because they were making the best of a bad situation,  not because it was a 
standard tactic.  Deciding that because they were willing to work it out that 
therefore you can order them to do it this way every time is abusive of their 
profession.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 03:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 02:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <151.11ceca6f.2a7ba7cc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <008b01c23a07$bf413920$0112bd50@martinjd>

>Read Miracle at Midway a few years back. IIRC the torpedo planes were the
> ones EXPECTED to take out
>  >the jap ships. But communication, navigation and planning errors
resulted
> in the attacks being
>  >uncoordinated and the TBY's? wound up being slaughtered by the jap CAP
and
> the ships. When the dive
>  >bombers showed up there were no planes in a position to oppose their
attack.
>
> This example doesn't make your point.  They wound up doing what they did
> because they were making the best of a bad situation,  not because it was
a
> standard tactic.  Deciding that because they were willing to work it out
that
> therefore you can order them to do it this way every time is abusive of
their
> profession.

Yes indeed. These guys did their job and made the attack despite everything
that was going wrong. The US aircrews got hammered - in fact, what killed
the IJN more than anything else was losses in good pilots, resulting
declining capability and more losses from elementary "inexperience" errors.

But anyway, point is that motivated, armed people will do their best nearly
all of the time. Creating policies that slaughter them for no good reason is
stupid, and will rob you of that motivation.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 03:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 02:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <177.c4ef5d8.2a7ba9ee@aol.com>

 >>Sure, not now: a video game, even a military simulator, is simply not
 >>possible of fully-simulating flight, combat &c.  But thousands of
 >>years in the future that's not an issue.  If you can damp inertia and
 >>fake gravity, you can fake the motions and sensations of combat.  If
 >>you can broadcast in 3D, you can generate a photo-realistic world
 >>outside the phony cockpit windows.  The only thing you _cannot_
 >>simulate is the fear of death--and real military training cannot AFAIK
 >>do that either; only actual flight time can do that.
 >
 >"I'm sorry, but it appears that Cadet Uhl was killed by the simulator.  In
 >the simulation, he accelerated his fighter to very high speed, then crashed
 >it into the drives of an enemy battleship.  The simulation ran its gravitics
 >to simulate the crash and increased the temperature to simulate the fire
 >when his L-Hyd tanks exploded.  The combination of being crushed and burned
 >caused injuries that we were unable treat effectively.  Next!"

No depressurization?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 04:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 03:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
In-Reply-To: <20020802062003.11635.24330.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020802062003.11635.24330.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <eimkkukp9lm8iv0tjm0iu5gvjaoi5j6oov@4ax.com>

On Thu, 01 Aug 2002 23:20:03 -0700, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

[quoting me]

> >including not commenting on how a
> >Washington police officer can be hired with felony convictions on his/her
> >record, provided that none were more recent than ten years ago at the time
> >of application.

>Well, to be fair, if they didn't follow this hiring policy then could they 
>find anyone to hire?

Yes.  In NYC, they call such positions 'hard to recruit', and that
automatically invokes paragraph 1127 of the Charter of the City of New York
- which paragraph allows them _not_ to impose or enforce the residency
requirement, and _does_ require that an employee hired under it be assessed
a non-tax payment, computed like the city's income tax, as a 'condition of
employment'.

> >Nor will I criticize the voters of that city for being stupid enough to
> >re-elect as mayor a convicted drug dealer, and then expect the tone of the
> >city to be anything other than what it is.

>Oh, but they're not stupid.  They knew what the tone of the city would be.  
>That's why they voted for him.

I refuse to believe that they _want_ a city that is so badly mismanaged
that Congress was ready to take away what autonomy they had.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 04:22:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 03:22:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Terminal Authors' Diarrhea
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020727101338.482f1ef0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20802.012022.5a5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 01:41 PM 7/27/2002 +0000, you wrote:
>
>>     Larsen, currently slogging through Turtledove's "Blood and Iron"
>
> "The Center Cannot Hold" is already out.  And it is wonderful!  I might Dr,
> Turtledove at BayCon, and suggested that I'd love to see the CSA timeline
> reach 1942.. and suddenly have the Race (from the Worldwar series) show up.
>  He told me he had been torturing his editor with that idea for sometime
> already.

Now you've given me an *evil* idea...

The Race shows up in 1942. And runs into the WWII of S.M. Stirling's
"Marching Through Georgia".

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 04:23:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Aug  2 03:23:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <000201c23a02$bf4aef60$0112bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3D4B05EA.9496.5198B9B@localhost>

On 2 Aug 2002, at 1:14, MJ Dougherty wrote:

> Raider-carriers are an excellent idea. I wonder if escort carriers could
> counter them. Or if they could carry enough fighters to scrub a decent light
> cruiser before it closed and killed the carrier. Or....

Ship: Nairana
Class: Vindex
Type: Escort Carrier
Architect: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
Tech Level: 13

USP
         RE-A731332-040000-44003-1 MCr 791.714 1 KTons
Bat Bear             6     11  2   Crew: 52
Bat                  6     11  2   TL: 13

Cargo: 11.400 Fuel: 330 EP: 30 Agility: 1 Marines: 7
Craft: 8 x 30T Patrol Fighters, 2 x 20T Lifeboats
Fuel Treatment: On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 4.893   Cost in Quantity: MCr 693.851


Detailed Description

HULL
1,000.000 tons standard, 14,000.000 cubic meters, Dispersed Structure 
Configuration

CREW
Pilot, Navigator, 4 Engineers, Medic, 10 Gunners, 18 Flight Crew, 7 
Marines, 10 Additional Crew (User Defined)

ENGINEERING
Jump-3, 1G Manuever, Power plant-3, 30.000 EP, Agility 1

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/3 Computer, Model/2 Flight Avionics, Model/3 Sensors, 
Model/3 Maser Communications

HARDPOINTS
10 Hardpoints

ARMAMENT
2 Triple Missile Turrets organised into 2 Batteries (Factor-3), 1 Triple Beam 
Laser Turret organised into 1 Battery (Factor-4), 1 Dual Fusion Gun Turret 
organised into 1 Battery (Factor-4)

DEFENCES
6 Triple Sandcaster Turrets organised into 6 Batteries (Factor-4)

CRAFT
8 30.000 ton Patrol Fighters (Crew of 2, Cost of MCr 36.920), 2 20.000 ton 
Lifeboats (Crew of 1, Cost of MCr 3.520)

FUEL
330 Tons Fuel (3 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
No Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
26 Staterooms, 1 Engineering Shop, 1 Vehicle Shop, 20 Tons of Missile 
Magazines (holding 400 missiles), 11.400 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
1 Maintainance Hanger (60.000 tons, Crew 10, Cost MCr 0.600), 4 Brig 
Cells (4.000 tons, Crew 0, Cost MCr 0.700)

COST
MCr 494.207 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 4.893), MCr 391.451 in 
Quantity, plus MCr 302.400 of Carried Craft (Hardpoints and Turrets 
charged)

CONSTRUCTION TIME
120 Weeks Singly, 96 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
The humble escort carrier is an often overlooked member of the Imperial 
Navy, but nonetheless it is probably one of the most useful vessels at the 
Emperor's disposal. Its modest costs coupled with the fexibility granted by 
its fighters give it range of options available to virtually no other type of 
vessel.

The escort carrier concept was developed by Cleon Zhunastu (later 
Emperor Cleon I) in the final years of the Sylean Federation. Initially 
intended as an answer to the endemic piracy that afflicted the fringes of the 
Federation, the type rapidly proved to be one of the most versatile in the 
fleet.

The Vindex class is a fairly typical example of the type. Designed during 
the later stages of the Civil War, it first found popularity amongst planetary 
navies and corporate interests seeking to find a cost effective suppliment 
for reduced Imperial Navy patrols. The class has also proved to be 
extremely flexible, often used to provide orbital and air support for minor 
troop deployments.

Ship: Puffin
Class: Puffin
Type: Patrol Fighter
Architect: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
Tech Level: 13

USP
         FP-0604B31-230000-20002-0 MCr 46.150 30 Tons
Bat Bear             1     1   1   Crew: 2
Bat                  1     1   1   TL: 13

Cargo: 0.500 Fuel: 3.300 EP: 3.300 Agility: 4 Pulse Lasers
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops

Architects Fee: MCr 0.462   Cost in Quantity: MCr 36.920


Detailed Description

HULL
30.000 tons standard, 420.000 cubic meters, Airframe Flattened Sphere 
Configuration

CREW
Pilot, Gunner

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 4G Manuever, Power plant-11, 3.300 EP, Agility 4

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/3 Computer, Model/3 Flight Avionics, Model/3 Sensors, 
Model/3 Maser Communications

HARDPOINTS
1 Hardpoint

ARMAMENT
1 Triple Mixed Turret with: 1 Pulse Laser (Factor-2), 1 Missile Rack (Factor-
2).

DEFENCES
1 Sandcaster in the Mixed Turret, organised into 1 Battery (Factor-3), 
Armoured Hull (Factor-2)

CRAFT
None

FUEL
3.300 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
1 Small Craft Stateroom, 2 Acceleration Couches, 1 Ton of Missile 
Magazines (holding 20 missiles), 0.500 Ton Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 46.612 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 0.462), MCr 36.920 in 
Quantity (Hardpoints and Turrets charged)

CONSTRUCTION TIME
16 Weeks Singly, 13 Weeks in Quantity

Ship: Lifeboat
Class: Lifeboat
Type: Lifeboat
Architect: Standard
Tech Level: 13

USP
         QX-0201101-000000-00000-0 MCr 4.400 20 Tons
Bat Bear                           Crew: 1
Bat                                TL: 13

Cargo: 4 Emergency Low: 6 Fuel: 4.200 EP: 0.200 Agility: 1
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops

Architects Fee: MCr 0.044   Cost in Quantity: MCr 3.520


Detailed Description

HULL
20.000 tons standard, 280.000 cubic meters, Cone Configuration

CREW
Pilot

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 1G Manuever, Power plant-1, 0.200 EP, Agility 1

AVIONICS
Bridge, No Computer Installed

HARDPOINTS
None

ARMAMENT
None

DEFENCES
None

CRAFT
None

FUEL
4.200 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance, plus 4.000 tons 
of additional fuel)
On Board Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
2 Acceleration Couches, 2 Low Berths, 6 Emergency Low Berths, 4 Tons 
Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 4.444 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 0.044), MCr 3.520 in 
Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
11 Weeks Singly, 9 Weeks in Quantity


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 04:23:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Aug  2 03:23:53 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <sd494643.049@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
Message-ID: <3D4B05EA.8754.5198B91@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002, at 14:28, Jeff D. Greenly wrote:

> One need only to look at the Battle of the Atlantic to see how much of
> an effect esprit de corps and loyalty go towards men willingly going
> into grave danger. I may be slightly off on my numbers, but the U-Boat
> service saw the highest losses of ANY service branch, across all
> nationalities during WW II. Something like 80% of all U-boatmen were KIA
> towards the end of the war, with the average life expectancy being a
> week. 

True to a point. But there's a very important proviso. The average crew of a 
U-boat was around 40-50 IIRC. This provides a mass of esprit de corps to 
"steady" the crew. The individual members draw strength from each other, 
the presense of your comrades acts as a break on panic and provides a 
strong disincentive to running away. However in a fighter you probably are 
all alone, the nearest friendly is tens of kilometers away and there's 
nobody to see if you stand as a "hero" or run as a "coward".

Personally I don't think the massed fighter approach works over the long 
term due to the cost in highly trained crew. However, I can well see it being 
not that uncommon, especially when one side feels desperate.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 04:24:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Aug  2 03:24:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <F228Wv2vyWb6cxHKx7000010140@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B05EA.18849.5198B91@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002, at 15:57, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      "...although not as bad as the Swordfish(1)."

>      Please excuse me, I forgot to add the footnote.

> (1) - The Swordfishs' very obs0lescence may have actually helped it survive in
> battle.  A most likely apophrycal story from the Bismarck saga has the German
> AA fire missing the attacking Swordfish because the aircraft were moving too
> SLOW, the AA crews led their targets by too much.  Swordfish made their
> torpedo runs at ~90 mph and weather conditions could drop that speed even
> further.
>      The Swordfish may been viwed as a joke by other navies, it still got the
> job done at Taranto and with the Bismarck however.

Don't dis the Swordfish, it was one of the 2nd WW most successful ASW 
aircraft. They served with no less than 26 squadrons, remained in 
production till late 1944 and only retired from active service on 21st May 
1945. :*>

ObTrav: Never, never underestimate the value of a well engineered lower 
tech design. You write off the well proven technology of the previous 
generation at your own peril. The Swordfish outlasted her replacement and 
was better in her role (carrier based ASW) than any other allied aircraft


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 04:28:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Aug  2 03:28:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <99.2a2d475a.2a779a93@aol.com> <3D4A0109.D48E52E6@pobox.com> <005801c23a04$ec770b20$0112bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <006401c23a0f$3ca9da00$7400a8c0@matt>

MJ Dougherty wrote:
>> I agree that a sub-100dT fighter cannot carry a weapon which can
>> hurt a TL15 capital ship, mostly because of the difference in
>> computer size.  This is why the "fighters" in the smoke test were
>> actually 1000dT boats with factor-9 missile bays.
>>
>
> Huh? 1000 tons is an escort, or a frigate or something. But certainly
> not a fighter.

The House rule I use to allow Fighters to be more effective is to let
Squadrons be treated as Batteries. ie, each fighter in the squadron is the
equivalent of a turret in a battery, with corresponding increase in weapon
USP, at the penalty of fewer salvos. This represents the squadron acting in
a co-ordinated way to attack a single target, concentrating their fire on
one spot so as to overwhelm it. The capital ship firing on the attacking
squadron still has to target individual fighters. As fighters are destroyed,
recalculate the effective USP of the squadrons 'battery'

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 04:52:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 03:52:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com>

 >>  >Low-end ships so you can do all your jobs within your budget maybe?
 >>
 >> I understand that, but there's the question of what your enemy is doing.
 >> Consider the extreams -- if your goal is to win engagements then you'll
 want
 >> a few expensive capital ships, but if you want to "do all the jobs" then
 >> you'll want a herd of warm bodies (as it were).  Between the extreams is
 the
 >> balance -- but where is it?  I think it's way over in the "win
 engagements"
 >> side.
 >
 >Engagemnents of what sort? Enough commerce raiders can cripple your economy
 >(Battle of the Atlantic etc) despite your excellent battle fleet. If the
 >engagements you need to win are escort/raider ones, then you need many ships
 >to cover the area, but ones good enough to beat or deter the raiders.

A good point worthy of discussion.  I have commerce raiders, but I envision 
them as travelling in a single mass, outrunning and dodging attempts by 
serious fleet elements to pursue them (unless, of course, the raiders blunder 
into them).  Small patrols and escorts are never going to be able to deal 
with such a herd, while major patrols and escorts deployed everywhere will 
seriously impact the size of the remaining core fleet.  How serious is the 
trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took place because the small island 
of England was not self-sufficient in either agricultural or industrial 
matters, but I don't think this situation will arise on many _planets_.  If 
trade is truly a major issue and lifeline then a massed herd of raiders will 
be crippling regardless of any other fleet elements employed.  But I think 
most planets with populations sufficient to have significant trade 
connections will have huge internal capacites to produce what they need 
anyway, and huge reserves of whatever they have to import (consider our 
Strategic Oil Reserve).  I see raiders as nothing more than annoyance attacks 
-- they can't lay seiges, they can't do major battles, and they can't stay in 
any area too long or some task force will find them and kick their ass -- 
that can't be instantly responded to in an adequate manner.  You can't be 
strong everywhere, and if you try you'll be rolled up.  Further, if your 
opponent takes that tonnage that you devoted to patrols and escorts and uses 
it to build a major fleet element instead, that element will be able to 
stroll through the isolated patrols and escorts like a bull in a china shop, 
wasting the tonnage you devoted to them.

 >> If you "cover all the bases" with warm bodies but have to flee every
 >> time the heavyweight enemy shows up then what good is that?  There is no
 >> substitute for victory, and to get that victory you need the heavyweights
and
 >> you need more of them than your enemy.
 >
 >You need greater concentration of force at the critical point. That can be
 >done with less ships, better handled and supported.

I don't think you can get "greater concentration of force" with "less ships". 
 All other things being equal, if 1/3 of your fleet runs into 2/3 of the 
enemy fleet then you're gonna get smooshed.  Then all your patrols and 
escorts won't matter.

 >That said, victory is not necessarily gained by defeating the enemy battle
 >fleet. If you do that, but he scrubs your industrial worlds with planetary
 >raider ships, or kills your economy with commerce raiders, then you may not
 >have won at all.

True.  But several points.  1)  If all he has left is raiders, then you'll 
march into _his_ territory with some surviving unopposed capital ships while 
sending the rest after the raiders, who will be forced to continuously flee 
with no refuge.  2)  Major industrial worlds will have their own local 
defense forces, and no raider fleet I can imagine will be able to take on an 
AX (population A, tech (game tech level)) world's local defense force, so the 
majority of your population should be safe.  3)  How would you stop this 
anyway?  A large raider force is not expensive to build, but if you try to 
put anti-raider forces sufficient to engage such raiders at every possible 
point they may attack then you won't have much left on your front lines, and 
the enemy will wind up attacking your industrial worlds not with raiders but 
with capital ships.  4)  As for commerce interdiction it will be unpopular 
with the folks, but in my opinion not militarily significant.

 >> If by patrol you mean scouts, then yes.  But if you mean general policing
 >> then I'd think that would be a local police matter and not a fleet matter.
 >
 >I mean patrol ships to defeat piracy, commerce raiding and smuggling,

That's all local.  If a system is really strapped, I'd send some fleet 
escorts to help out.  War is not always imminent, after all.  Too, while the 
Imperium cares about some weapons, why should it care about the smuggling of 
anything else?  "Admiral!  Smugglers are transporting illegal cargos of 
cigarettes to Zivije!"  "Ensign, go there immediately.  Buy me a few packs."

 >to
 >catch enemy intelligence ships and recon vessels

I'd use scouts to watch them, and try to catch them on the way out -- if I 
thought they had relevant information.  What are they going to say?  "There's 
a planet here!"?  "There's some sort of secret facility over here!"?  "There 
were no ships in this system two months ago!"?  But frankly, a traitor 
civilian in a free trader or a seeker would be impossible to detect, and 
would provide just as much information.

 >to prevent the stockpiling of forward supply bases

Scouts would see the incoming traffic, and the fleet would send some elements 
to check it out.

 >to gain intelligence

Scouts again.

 >to show the flag and keep systems in line....

I'd use the regular fleet to do that.  "Join the Navy and see the world!"

It's getting late.  I hope I've said something useful with a minimum of 
"noise".

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 04:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 03:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <99.2a2d475a.2a779a93@aol.com> <3D4A0109.D48E52E6@pobox.com> <005801c23a04$ec770b20$0112bd50@martinjd> <006401c23a0f$3ca9da00$7400a8c0@matt>
Message-ID: <003201c23a14$66243100$7d03bd50@martinjd>

> >>
> >
> > Huh? 1000 tons is an escort, or a frigate or something. But certainly
> > not a fighter.
>
> The House rule I use to allow Fighters to be more effective is to let
> Squadrons be treated as Batteries. ie, each fighter in the squadron is the
> equivalent of a turret in a battery, with corresponding increase in weapon
> USP, at the penalty of fewer salvos.

Why do you want fighters to be more effective?

>This represents the squadron acting in
> a co-ordinated way to attack a single target, concentrating their fire on
> one spot so as to overwhelm it. The capital ship firing on the attacking
> squadron still has to target individual fighters. As fighters are
destroyed,
> recalculate the effective USP of the squadrons 'battery'

I see the concept, though you'd have to simulate C3 breakdowns, loss of
cohesion etc

>
> Matt
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 05:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Fri Aug  2 04:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Blowing holes in Japan (was " Re Patton")
Message-ID: <F6qF77mNl6ahF9JckUL00023608@hotmail.com>

Gentles, I believe part of the rationale (if such is really possible) behind 
dropping the nuclear weapons on Japan was that the person[1] running the 
country refused to believe that the Americans would have the capacity (moral 
or technological) to defeat the "honorable" Japanese nation.
Unfortunately, the only way to get through his racism and bigotry  - and 
show him that he *would* not win by forcew of arms - was to kill thousands 
of "innocent" civilians.  Whilst such a move is horrific for us to 
contemplate today, remember that the circumstances then were a little 
different...

[1]IIRC, Emporer Hirohito - who continued to see *absolutely nothing wrong* 
in the abuses his soldiers inflicted on prisoners until the day he died...

Jeff (aka Captain Chicken, leg-end in his own lunchbox).

"The party waits until it hears the pre-arranged signal - a scream - then 
decides it must be headed in the wrong direction and leaves Jackie to her 
fate..."

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 05:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Aug  2 04:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <99.2a2d475a.2a779a93@aol.com> <3D4A0109.D48E52E6@pobox.com> <005801c23a04$ec770b20$0112bd50@martinjd> <006401c23a0f$3ca9da00$7400a8c0@matt> <003201c23a14$66243100$7d03bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <00a601c23a14$be1ddbe0$7400a8c0@matt>

MJ Dougherty wrote:
>>> Huh? 1000 tons is an escort, or a frigate or something. But
>>> certainly not a fighter.
>>
>> The House rule I use to allow Fighters to be more effective is to let
>> Squadrons be treated as Batteries. ie, each fighter in the squadron
>> is the equivalent of a turret in a battery, with corresponding
>> increase in weapon USP, at the penalty of fewer salvos.
>
> Why do you want fighters to be more effective?

So that they can have an outside possibility of damaging Capital ships at
high TL

>> This represents the squadron acting in
>> a co-ordinated way to attack a single target, concentrating their
>> fire on one spot so as to overwhelm it. The capital ship firing on
>> the attacking squadron still has to target individual fighters. As
>> fighters are destroyed, recalculate the effective USP of the
>> squadrons 'battery'
>
> I see the concept, though you'd have to simulate C3 breakdowns, loss
> of cohesion etc

Sure, just as soon as we do the same for the escorting PD ships of the
defending Fleet...

HG is pretty abstract anyway, so this level of detail is unnecessary IMHO.
All I am doing is letting Fighters act like Turrets. If several turrets can
concentrate their fire to increase their effectiveness, why can't several
fighters?

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 05:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Brian Caball)
Date: Fri Aug  2 04:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com>
References: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com>
Message-ID: <02080212144000.29943@avlendris>

> How
> serious is the trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took place because
> the small island of England was not self-sufficient in either agricultural
> or industrial matters, but I don't think this situation will arise on many
> _planets_.  If trade is truly a major issue and lifeline then a massed herd
> of raiders will be crippling regardless of any other fleet elements
> employed.  But I think most planets with populations sufficient to have
> significant trade connections will have huge internal capacites to produce
> what they need anyway, and huge reserves of whatever they have to import
> (consider our Strategic Oil Reserve).  

If planets are so self sufficient, then why does TNE describe planets failing 
because they were cut off from interstellar trade?

-Brian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 05:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 04:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com>
Message-ID: <004c01c23a1c$26d3b860$7d03bd50@martinjd>

>
> A good point worthy of discussion.  I have commerce raiders, but I
envision
> them as travelling in a single mass, outrunning and dodging attempts by
> serious fleet elements to pursue them (unless, of course, the raiders
blunder
> into them).  Small patrols and escorts are never going to be able to deal
> with such a herd, while major patrols and escorts deployed everywhere will
> seriously impact the size of the remaining core fleet.

If you spread out a mix of powerful and less powerful commerce raiders,
you'll pull more fleet assets away. That's half the point.


>How serious is the
> trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took place because the small
island
> of England was not self-sufficient in either agricultural or industrial
> matters, but I don't think this situation will arise on many _planets_.

It'll impact revenue, which hurts over time. More importantly, it hurts
civilian morale and causes demands for proteciton. And you can damage the
logistics train - if the enemy is missile-heavy, he has to get them to the
battle area...

>If
> trade is truly a major issue and lifeline then a massed herd of raiders
will
> be crippling regardless of any other fleet elements employed.

Until it inevitably gets squashed. Dispersed raiding works better, other
than for targeted strikes, say on a critical system to massacre the
concentration of merhcant shipping there.

>But I think
> most planets with populations sufficient to have significant trade
> connections will have huge internal capacites to produce what they need
> anyway, and huge reserves of whatever they have to import (consider our
> Strategic Oil Reserve).  I see raiders as nothing more than annoyance
attacks
> -- they can't lay seiges, they can't do major battles, and they can't stay
in
> any area too long or some task force will find them and kick their ass --
> that can't be instantly responded to in an adequate manner.  You can't be
> strong everywhere, and if you try you'll be rolled up.  Further, if your
> opponent takes that tonnage that you devoted to patrols and escorts and
uses
> it to build a major fleet element instead, that element will be able to
> stroll through the isolated patrols and escorts like a bull in a china
shop,
> wasting the tonnage you devoted to them.

Assuming he's rich enough to afford a fleet like that. Guerre de Course has
always been the weaker nation's option.

>
>  >> If you "cover all the bases" with warm bodies but have to flee every
>  >> time the heavyweight enemy shows up then what good is that?  There is
no
>  >> substitute for victory, and to get that victory you need the
heavyweights
> and
>  >> you need more of them than your enemy.
>  >
>  >You need greater concentration of force at the critical point. That can
be
>  >done with less ships, better handled and supported.
>
> I don't think you can get "greater concentration of force" with "less
ships".

I have 6 ships, you have 12. I draw 8 of your ships away with a feint, and
gain local superiority. You sent them all? Great. I smash your base. You
sent none? Well, if my recon is up to it I'll know. Next time I just smash
something elsewhere , maybe with pairs of my ships, while you sit tight and
wait for the big clash at JUtland.

>  All other things being equal, if 1/3 of your fleet runs into 2/3 of the
> enemy fleet then you're gonna get smooshed.  Then all your patrols and
> escorts won't matter.

Unless my ships are better/more survivable/able to break off after drawing
you into a predcitable position, so others of my ships can smash stuff
elsewhere.


>
>  >That said, victory is not necessarily gained by defeating the enemy
battle
>  >fleet. If you do that, but he scrubs your industrial worlds with
planetary
>  >raider ships, or kills your economy with commerce raiders, then you may
not
>  >have won at all.
>
> True.  But several points.  1)  If all he has left is raiders, then you'll
> march into _his_ territory with some surviving unopposed capital ships
while
> sending the rest after the raiders, who will be forced to continuously
flee
> with no refuge.

Yes, though you'll have to fight his system defense monitors and meson guns
sites while his raiders play hell with your logistics and maul damaged ships
headed home for repair.

2)  Major industrial worlds will have their own local
> defense forces, and no raider fleet I can imagine will be able to take on
an
> AX (population A, tech (game tech level)) world's local defense force, so
the
> majority of your population should be safe.

Yes. But your logistics and trade may not be. And there is still room for
deception and assymetric attack.

3)  How would you stop this
> anyway?  A large raider force is not expensive to build, but if you try to
> put anti-raider forces sufficient to engage such raiders at every possible
> point they may attack then you won't have much left on your front lines,
and
> the enemy will wind up attacking your industrial worlds not with raiders
but
> with capital ships.

That was my point. Chasing down raiders requires capable ships and many of
them. Your all-dreadnought fleet can't cover enough ground to do it. You
need cruisers and second-line battleships (the Type R battleships did a lot
of Atlantic escort work, and were a powerful deterrernt to surface raiders,
even though they were sometimes outclassed). Point is, you need adequate
low-end escorts and commerce proteciton ships, else your powerful fleet ends
up guarding nothing, with no logistics support top keep it in being.

4)  As for commerce interdiction it will be unpopular
> with the folks, but in my opinion not militarily significant.

Military operations have two axis of atack - they can attack the Means of
the enemy to make war, or the Will to do so. Commerce raiding is a direct
attack on the Will (unhappy people yelling for peace) and an indirect one on
the Means (logistics). It works.

>
>  >> If by patrol you mean scouts, then yes.  But if you mean general
policing
>  >> then I'd think that would be a local police matter and not a fleet
matter.
>  >
>  >I mean patrol ships to defeat piracy, commerce raiding and smuggling,
>
> That's all local.  If a system is really strapped, I'd send some fleet
> escorts to help out.

You have enough of those? RW experience has shown that there are NEVER
enough, and I seem to remember you quoting a very low percentage devoted to
escorts.

>War is not always imminent, after all.  Too, while the
> Imperium cares about some weapons, why should it care about the smuggling
of
> anything else?  "Admiral!  Smugglers are transporting illegal cargos of
> cigarettes to Zivije!"  "Ensign, go there immediately.  Buy me a few
packs."

These activities undermine the commerce of the Imperium, and its ovbserved
rule of law. Dangerous.

>
>  >to
>  >catch enemy intelligence ships and recon vessels
>
> I'd use scouts to watch them, and try to catch them on the way out -- if I
> thought they had relevant information.  What are they going to say?
"There's
> a planet here!"?  "There's some sort of secret facility over here!"?
"There
> were no ships in this system two months ago!"?  But frankly, a traitor
> civilian in a free trader or a seeker would be impossible to detect, and
> would provide just as much information.

Your scouts can be killed by armed recon frigates, or lost in Jump. You
cannot guarantee catching even some recon recon ships. A Jump-6 recon
frigate can bring timely information to a raider squadron on escort and
patrol deployments. Yes, there is a comm lag and thus plenty of fog. But
it's better than nothing. Free Trader traitors might also be useful, but
slower.

>
>  >to prevent the stockpiling of forward supply bases
>
> Scouts would see the incoming traffic, and the fleet would send some
elements
> to check it out.
>
>  >to gain intelligence
>
> Scouts again.

Can your scout ships movve fast enough? Are they survivable enough, and wll
armed to deal with immeduiate threats as they flee? If they are, then
they're naval units.


>
>  >to show the flag and keep systems in line....
>
> I'd use the regular fleet to do that.  "Join the Navy and see the world!"

So your dreadnoughts tour en masse, or independently? You're dispersing your
capital ships?

>
> It's getting late.  I hope I've said something useful with a minimum of
> "noise".

Let's turn this on its head. Can you explain how this model of yours
works...? How do you plan to fight a war with it?










> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 05:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 04:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <99.2a2d475a.2a779a93@aol.com> <3D4A0109.D48E52E6@pobox.com> <005801c23a04$ec770b20$0112bd50@martinjd> <006401c23a0f$3ca9da00$7400a8c0@matt> <003201c23a14$66243100$7d03bd50@martinjd> <00a601c23a14$be1ddbe0$7400a8c0@matt>
Message-ID: <005901c23a1d$16700d60$7d03bd50@martinjd>

> > Why do you want fighters to be more effective?
>
> So that they can have an outside possibility of damaging Capital ships at
> high TL

And again, why do you want this? Barring me swallowing some and suffering
some strange kind of poisoning, no amount of flies can beat me in a straight
fight. My feeling is that fightrers are good for screening and keeping
merchies in line. Big ships are for killing big ships.

> >
> > I see the concept, though you'd have to simulate C3 breakdowns, loss
> > of cohesion etc
>
> Sure, just as soon as we do the same for the escorting PD ships of the
> defending Fleet...

Indeed, though coordinaitng a useful fighter attack requires external comms.
Escorts can operate on internal comms (hard to jam) and even independently,
can be useful if the captains are smart. Uncoordinated fighters are just as
big mess.

>
> HG is pretty abstract anyway, so this level of detail is unnecessary IMHO.
> All I am doing is letting Fighters act like Turrets. If several turrets
can
> concentrate their fire to increase their effectiveness, why can't several
> fighters?

Becuase turrets are controlled with internal comms, hardwired through the
ship, while ifghters have to talk externally and are subject to jamming or
other problems. And becuase you don't get a battery of turrests scattering
due to evasion and having to reform.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <a6.29f91dee.2a7a2a7a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B1E74.16706.D41575@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 2:08, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> This tactic is presented not as a desperation move, but an ordinary
> one to be implemented if said navy can put up with it.  To which I
> responded that no fighter pilot community would tolerate it.  Even
> if the attacking squadron is originally 1000, after two capital
> ships they'll be combat ineffective using this tactic, and there
> will be NO volunteers to replace them until the tactic is discarded. 

That's contrary to history - in WWII many units in all combatants 
armies took those sorts of casualties, and New Zealand, the USA, 
Britain and the USSR (and probably others) all continued to have people 
volunteering throughout the war.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:07:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:07:50 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <91.20daf914.2a7a2267@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B1E74.16846.D4152F@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 1:34, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
 
> Will they come apart if they take 98% casualties between breakfast and lunch? 
>  That is on a level with the original post that started this discussion.

No it wasn't, because the original post didn't specify a proportion, 
merely an absolute quantity.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:08:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:08:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Kit (as our British friends say)
In-Reply-To: <d4.1b055146.2a7a030a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B1E74.26826.D414E9@localhost>

On 31 Jul 2002 at 23:20, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> >In boot camp, when I received my first pay statement (just a receipt, we
> >didn't get any actual checks until graduation) I was shocked to find out
> >that I was actually in the hole to Uncle Sam. I had no idea that every bit
> >of equipment (except loaners like web gear, canteens, and weapons) came out
> >of our own pockets.
> 
> One of my favorite bits of reading is a papyrus detailing the pay record of a 
> Roman soldier in Egypt ca. 250 AD There are deductions for uniform and 
> equipment, mandatory deposit to the unit savings bank, contributions to the 
> burial fund (insurance) and the unit Saturnalia feast (held around the same 
> time as Christmas), and stoppages to pay for a wine bar demolished in the 
> course of a brawl. Every soldier I have ever shown it to marvels at the line 
> on the bottom:
> 
> "Copy 2 of 3, for unit archives"

Doesn't surprise me in the slightest. Those old Sumerian clay tablets 
are all (or almost all) warehousing records and accounts, and the 
Mykenean writing recovered from their palaces is all the same.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:09:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:09:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com>
References: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020802220750.A12763@freeman.little-possums.net>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> How serious is the trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took
> place because the small island of England was not self-sufficient in
> either agricultural or industrial matters, but I don't think this
> situation will arise on many _planets_.

Not for the planets of any meaningful military capacity, anyway.  99%
of the production of the Imperium comes from 10% of the planets.  The
combined trade of those planets with every other planet (including
each other) is about 0.2% of their combined economies.  That means
that whatever they import can't be worth much.

Minor backwaters on "major" trade routes might be crippled.  That
might have political effect on the state as a whole, but no direct
economic or military effect.

The trade situation in the Imperium is *drastically* unlike that
between any group of nations on Earth.  Trade between nations on Earth
is a significant fraction of total economic activity, I would guess
roughly 30-40% based on data from the CIA factbook.  In the Imperium,
trade is less than 0.4%.  If you could disrupt *all* of it, it would
probably have less effect than capturing or destroying the productive
capability of a single hi-pop world.


In short, I agree.  England was hundreds of times more dependent upon
trade than are any of the important planets in Traveller.
Furthermore, raiding ships in Traveller have to contend with system
defences.  There are no mid-ocean battles in Traveller; you're always
fighting in someone's backyard.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:11:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:11:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <8d.1bfa1383.2a7a4253@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B1F74.9458.D7FBED@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 3:50, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>  >> He will shuck and jive, pretend equipment failures, or run.  He most
>  >> certainly won't volunteer for that sort of duty again.
>  >
>  >That's a pretty low opinion of a fellow officer
> 
> A fellow officer, he says!  They wouldn't be officers, they'd be cannon 
> fodder.  And they'd know it.

Interesting that you see figther pilots as having the state of non-
cannon fodder as their natural state, and that they'd be scarce 
resources. I can't see them as being any more or less expendable than 
any other ship crew, as all crew positions that are combat relevant are 
skilled. I also find your position interesting in that it assumes that 
highly skilled people are 'more cautious' (to be polite) than those 
that are supposedly less highly trained/skilled (like grunts).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] [OT] Starship Troopers (was: Comic Book Battles)
In-Reply-To: <B9681E36.3499%shadowjack@skyhighway.com>
Message-ID: <20802.043414.9M3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
>> Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 17:25:19
>
>> Virginia Heinlein agreed to a different script, and was shafted.  She told
>> the SF community that she came close to suing the studio until it was made
>> clear that she would lose.  She appeared on screen at a WorldCon and
>> apologized to the assembled fans for not handling the property better..
>> then set off a near riot by casully mentioning that the same mistakes will
>> not be made with the "Stranger in a Strange Land" movie...
>
> I'm trying to imagine that as a movie, and just can't quite get it through
> my head. Are we talking Hollywood here? "Stranger in a Strange Land"?
> Grokking and all that?

Think "sex and naked chicks". :-|
 
> Gee, who'll they get for "Stranger"?

The first report I recall regarding someone tryng to get backers was
back in 1970...

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:14:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:14:39 2002
Subject: [TML] [OT] Starship Troopers (was: Comic Book Battles)
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEDJEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20802.043609.9X7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Virginia Heinlein agreed to a different script, and was shafted.  She told
>> the SF community that she came close to suing the studio until it was made
>> clear that she would lose.  She appeared on screen at a WorldCon and
>> apologized to the assembled fans for not handling the property better..
>> then set off a near riot by casully mentioning that the same mistakes will
>> not be made with the "Stranger in a Strange Land" movie...
>
> I wonder if she sold all rights or not. In other words could a decent
> filmmaker take another crack at ST in a few years or not?

Not "she". The movie rights were likely sold *decades* ago.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:16:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:16:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <02080212144000.29943@avlendris>
References: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com> <02080212144000.29943@avlendris>
Message-ID: <20020802221422.B12763@freeman.little-possums.net>

Brian Caball wrote:
> If planets are so self sufficient, then why does TNE describe
> planets failing because they were cut off from interstellar trade?

If external trade is so essential to the continued survival of
planets, why is it worth less than 0.4% of the economy?  These two
facts need to be reconciled before any answer can be attempted.

Personally, my opinion is that TNE needed an apocalypse and lack of
trade was just an excuse.  Virus infecting the control systems of high
tech worlds down all the way down to the level of toasters clearly
wasn't enough.  Probably just my personal dislike for post-disaster
settings showing, though.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <005201c23944$b5f3ac40$6e09bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3D4B24F2.20758.ED70D3@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 11:17, MJ Dougherty wrote:

> IE Units will NOT enter routine combat situations where they know
> they will be massacred. 

I think it depends a lot on the chances of success and the value the 
soldier (or pilots, or whatevers) place on that success. If the plan 
calls for the certain death of a good proportion of a unit for a low 
chance of success for an unimportant objective there'll be problems. 
If, OTOH the plan is for several hundred fighters to attack a 
battleship and it's guaranteed that the BB will die for the cost of a 
hundred fighters I think you'd have plenty of volunteers as long as 
there was some benefit in killing that BB (ie it didn't have so many 
friends that your side just couldn't kill them all, etc.)


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:34:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:34:41 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <m3ptx2twnf.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <e6.2be0ca41.2a7a3051@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B24F2.27371.ED703D@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 9:40, Robert Uhl wrote:

> I'll say again: it depends on the size of the wave.  How large were
> the British waves in WWII when 100-200 a night were lost?

Those losses were from the big '1000 bomber' raids. Smaller raids lost 
less aircraft in absolute terms, but often more as a percentage.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:35:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:35:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Kit (as our British friends say)
In-Reply-To: <02080113001703.22132@avlendris>
References: <20020801115445.5089.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B24F2.24886.ED6FF7@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 13:00, Brian Caball wrote:

> 
> > > "Copy 2 of 3, for unit archives"
> >   OMG!!!!! The, the, the......[sigh]......
> 
> This seems to be flying right over my head... is that what the modern 
> equivalents also say or something?

Just about every piece of paper in the military has three or four 
copies of it made. One for the recipient, one for the issuing body's 
archives and one for the parent body's records, plus for many things 
one for military intelligence. The MI's copies of battalion paperwork 
used to be pink, and we got one of just about everything. Right handy 
for working out what was going to happen next - when battalion suddenly 
gets a whole lot of tropical gear you know you're not going to be going 
to Antarctica (in theory anyway).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:37:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:37:04 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <007201c23945$6b27eae0$6e09bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3D4B24F2.5802.ED708D@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 11:22, MJ Dougherty wrote:

> 
> > >Try the loss rates for some of the RAF's 1000 bomber night attacks,
> >  >then. Over 100 bombers in a night wasn't exceptional (IIRC some were
> >  >near the 200 mark) and while that rate was unsustainable it wasn't for
> >  >lack of volunteers, but because aircraft take time to make and crews
> >  >take time to train.
> >
> > Imminent threats to national survival, of course, change casualty rate
> > acceptance.  But the original subject was hundreds of fighter pilots for
> the
> > one or two lucky shots to kill a capital ship as a standard by-the-book
> > tactic.  Never happen.
> 
> Besides, bomber crews did so many missions and then OUT. Your odds of
> getting killed on any one of those missions were relatively small, but they
> stacked up. However, you *knew* you'd probably get out before your number
> came up. Whether it was true or not is another matter, but you knew.... if
> the odds had been 50% chance of death per mission, and you'll keep on being
> sent in again and again, well...

Well the rates for night flights over Germany were up around the 10%+ 
mark for some nights, and were almost never under 5%. I forget how many 
missions made a tour in the RAF, but it was enough that not finshing a 
tour was quite normal. Despite this many crewmen signed up for tour 
after tour until they were shot down or broke under the stress.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:37:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff D. Greenly)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:37:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #859 - 22 msgs
Message-ID: <sd4a444e.089@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>

>Message: 2
>From: Flykiller@aol.com 
>Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 03:11:16 EDT
>Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
>To: tml@travellercentral.com 
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com 
>
>>Would a world that has 80% of its surface covered by water, a dense
>>nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, and one moon that is large enough to
exert a
>>tidal effect tend to be more or less climatically active? Assume
>>moderate (terran-normal) vulcanism and a fairly non-polluting early
TL
>>aqua/agricultural society. Also assume standard polar ice caps and
>>rotation around 20 deg. off the plane of the ecliptic. I'll welcome
any
>>and all comments...
>
>I've often wondered along those lines.  If you look at our system the
size 2 
>moon is at the very limit (book 6) of its possible orbit, yet when
generating 
>traveller systems it is quite possible to have much larger moons
orbiting 
>much closer to their world.  The tides would be huge.  I would imagine
there 
>would be very few costal cities throughout most systems, because
they'd be 
>flooded by 50 foot tides.
>
>As I understand it weather is caused mostly by heat transfer across a

>planet's surface.  Since your world has a 20 degree axial tilt then I
would 
>think its weather would be about comparable to Terra's.  If denser
atmosphere 
>holds more heat then it should be more active.

Mr. Fly,

Thanks for replying... I haven't generated all of the other system
details, so I have a few variables still missing. The planet that I am
currently working on, Knorbes (Regina/SM), is a tough world to do
because it's geography is very Terran, it's rich, agricultural, and has
80 million-plus people governed by a civil serrvice bureaucracy, and is
at tech level 2, which isn't easy to reconcile. The big hangup for me is
(always) the physical science. You see, I spent most of my time in the
Liberal Arts when I was in school, and it did me an irrepairable brain
injury. Traveller is therapy for me now. Anyway, it sounds to me like
you are on the right track. The questions I have are, does a dense
atmosphere hold more energy? Wouldn't it take that much more energy to
"move" a dense atmosphere into weather changes? Would the world's oceans
act as thermal "batteries", and if so, how would they affect the
weather? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the matter...

Jeff

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:38:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:38:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <F228Wv2vyWb6cxHKx7000010140@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B2568.16012.EF3EB3@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 15:57, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

> 
>      "...although not as bad as the Swordfish(1)."
> 
> 
> Ladies and Gentlemen,
> 
>      Please excuse me, I forgot to add the footnote.
> 
> 
> (1) - The Swordfishs' very obs0lescence may have actually helped it survive 
> in battle.  A most likely apophrycal story from the Bismarck saga has the 
> German AA fire missing the attacking Swordfish because the aircraft were 
> moving too SLOW, the AA crews led their targets by too much.  Swordfish made 
> their torpedo runs at ~90 mph and weather conditions could drop that speed 
> even further.
>      The Swordfish may been viwed as a joke by other navies, it still got 
> the job done at Taranto and with the Bismarck however.

I'm pretty sure that their slow speed wasn't a factor in the Bismark 
action, but it was a factor in the 'Channel Dash' (as was piss poor 
communications on the British side).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <2d16412cfe49.2cfe492d1641@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <3D4B26E5.29810.F51057@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 20:20, john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:

> OTOH, the Stringbag was never sent into battle against carrier-based 
> fighters.  The TBD pilots at Midway, meanwhile, had to try to survive 
> without fighter cover against the A6M Zero.  Hardly a fair contest (of 
> course, any military leader who tries to fight war _fairly_ isn't doing 
> the job correctly).

However Swordfish did go up against serious air-cover during the 
'Channel Dash' by Scharnhost and Gneisenau and while their losses 
weren't insignificant they weren't as high as they might have been, 
largely because they were flying so slowly that the German fighters 
couldn't line up and get decent firing positions on them. The Beauforts 
which were somewhat faster and had a (slightly) better defensive 
armament took quite a hammering, IIRC.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Character Conversions
Message-ID: <20020802124732.56CF54505@mo130uhou.palm.net>



David Smart <jurrubin@earthlink.net> wrote:
[snip]
> I've just finished converting a Zho generated from the CT 
>Zho supplement into GT and he's practically god-like (rolled incredibly well 
>back in '87 for psionics). 
[snip] 
>Then again, I've played this guy through 5 long-term campaigns. Great for solo 
>runs but a bit overpowering with other, more youthful characters. 

Sounds like a great reoccuring villian.

----------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere. 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CDE@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <3D4B28F8.948.FD2916@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 16:42, Hurrel, Brian wrote:

> "No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy."
> 
> I'm paraphrasing, and can't remember who said this. Maybe Clausewitz(SP?).

Moltke, IIRC, but it's probably about as old as warfare itself.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 07:16:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Fri Aug  2 06:16:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020802092329.00a31a10@mail.buffnet.net>

Has anyone noted the set up with regards to the number of starports that 
can produce starships versus those that can only builld system ships?  And 
to make matters worse, there aren't that many high tech star ports around


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 07:17:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Marsh)
Date: Fri Aug  2 06:17:06 2002
Subject: [TML] re: juries
Message-ID: <F91hrbvkBs9XMgFNhPt000249a8@hotmail.com>

I have served on a number of juries here in the good 'ol USA (1 civil, 2 
criminal) and in general have always been impressed by how careful and 
deliberate people have been in trying to be fair as well as seek justice 
within the constraints of the case as it is given. I have always come out of 
the process feeling much better about the US jury system. I was on one drug 
case where we just KNEW the guy was guilty but the state failed to prove the 
case beyond a reasonable doubt so we could not find him guilty. The cops 
just didn't get the goods on him.


>From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>To: "Traveller-Digest" <tml@travellercentral.com>
>Subject: [TML] re:  juries
>Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 15:53:12 -0700
>
> >From: Flykiller@aol.com
>
>someone wrote:
> >Amateur juries
> >seem to me to be ill equipped to handle many kinds of cases.
>
>Flykiller@aol.com replied:
> >True.  And irrelevant to why they exist.  Juries aren't meant to be
> >professional, quite the opposite.  Juries are meant to be a last and 
>final
> >check and balance against governmental power over individual citizens.  
>The
> >government can't put anyone in jail unless they can get a bunch of 
>amateur
> >citizens to agree.  It's preferable to the alternative.
>
>If you can't explain your case so that twelve ordinary people understand 
>it,
>then you don't understand your case adequately.
>
>--Glenn
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml




_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 07:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  2 06:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <200208021317.LXD04141@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>
>In short, I agree.  England was hundreds of times more 
>dependent upon trade than are any of the important planets 
>in Traveller.
>Furthermore, raiding ships in Traveller have to contend with 
>system defences.  There are no mid-ocean battles in 
>Traveller; you're always fighting in someone's backyard.

IMHO, in major systems that are hi-pop, hi-tech, with large 
industrial bases, the critical resources are on more than 
just one planet - there are probably mining bases all over 
the system - the gas giants must be defended to keep enemy 
ships from refuelling - and for economical reasons, there may 
be more than one high port.

A large system like this would have to maintain a 
considerable number of ships in order to defend these assets, 
and protect shipping between these points.  Convoys may be 
forced to use jump ships to do intrasystem jumps to avoid 
raiders, and ships inbound/outbound from the system would 
have to jump at the 100D limit without fail after being 
escorted the entire distance to and from the port.

In essence, laying siege to such a system might first mean 
whittling down the system defense boats and local fighters 
with fighter raids and light commerce raiders.  You might, 
after a time, be left only with your larger monitors, port 
defenses, and planetary defense sites.  Ships as small as 
fighters may also lay mines on courses to sweep through 
traffic areas.  I would bet that for such an advanced system, 
while it might well be able to subsist on its own, it won't 
profit as much, especially if it engages in trade with a 
nearby world of similar stature.  It would even affect local 
trade, and local merchant shipping would be affected, even if 
losses were light.

A continuous series of light hit and run raids would force 
diversion of assets you would ordinarily use elsewhere, or 
force the construction and maintenance of substantial non-
jump forces.  If you chose to ignore the raiding on the idea 
that it doesn't affect your economy too much, the locals who 
live there might be of another opinion.  It would also invite 
a full scale assault after a time.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 08:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Fri Aug  2 07:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Warships
References: <b4.f32c32a.2a76d569@aol.com> <3D487967.3734.F911EB@localhost>
Message-ID: <043b01c23a2f$bc26f9a0$1f9e15ac@warrior>

> Firstly, Planets are big, have vast reserves of power, and can have have
an
> effective armarment far beyond that of even the largest fleet. Secondly,
> working around a planet is the space equivlent of naval "confined waters".
> Maneuver is severely restricted and ranges are short. These two things
> mean that interface combat around a well defended world will be brutal and
> any vessel not specifically designed for it will become a glowing hulk
very
> quickly. Of course the problem is that such vessels have limited
> usefulness outside their designed role and virtually none in peacetime.
>

This brings up one of my revelations about strategic combat in traveller.
After realizing this, it occurred to the that strategic warfare functions a
lot like strategic warfare in medieval of renaissance times.  I.E. where
defense is stronger than offense.  Medieval or Renaissance armies almost
never fought battles.  Battles are dicey affairs where things can go either
way.  Nobody wants that.  Mostly the armies would lay siege to castles and
fortresses, taking them slowly by starvation or rarely, quickly by storm.

I imagine that to large insteller states at war with one and other in
Traveller would operate the same way.  Nobody wants to get into a pitched
fleet battle unless he or she has a clear and obvious advantage.  Most of
the time the fleets jump in system, establish a blockade, and threaten drop
big ass rocks on a world to try to arrange a surrender.  If the world
doesn't surrender, you either bombard/assault (I.e. storm) or blockade and
wait them out (I.e. starve).


later
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 08:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Aug  2 07:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Blowing holes in Japan (was " Re Patton")
Message-ID: <F2374oW3zJzsGOJZ6Fz00024494@hotmail.com>

From: "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com>

     "[1]IIRC, Emporer Hirohito - who continued to see *absolutely nothing 
wrong* in the abuses his soldiers inflicted on prisoners until the day he 
died..."


Mr. Rowse,

     The behavior of the Japanese military in WW2 is one of the least 
studied aspects of that conflict.  During Japan's rise to first a regional, 
then a hemispheric power, her armed forces were consistently praised by 
observers for their model behavior.  Both the IJA and IJN recieved this 
praise during the Sino-Japanese and Russo-Japanese wars and during WW1.
     When they began to invade and occupy China proper in the early 30's, 
the wheels seemed to come off however.  Japanese troops were soon notorious 
for their behavior.  None of their actions needs repeating here, but they 
equalled, if not exceeded, those of the Nazis for ferocity, if not 
organization.
     Still, there were isolated examples of Japanese units behaving as their 
fathers and grandfathers may have.  During the Leyte Gulf brawl, various USN 
DDs and DEs sacrificed themselves so that the CVEs of Taffy 3 could flee 
from the BBs and CAs of the IJN's Central Force.  The crew of one CE, still 
clinging to the wreckage of their ship, reported that the crew of an IJN CA 
passing by MANNED THE RAILS and saluted them.  However, the crew of another 
sunken CE was sprayed with MG and pom-pom fire as an IJN warship passed.
     IMHO, Hirohito should have mounted the scaffold ahead of Tojo.  He was 
intimately involved in the planning and operation of both the China and 
Pacific wars.  If SCAP needed the stability an emperor brought to Japan, 
then an infant, with a regent, should have been installed on the throne.(1)
     One fact that people hashing out the 1945 A-bomb decision tend to 
forget is that the US was reading most of Japan's diplomatic and political 
dispatches in real time.  The US knew in August of '45 that the Imperial War 
Cabinet was still adament about continuing the war and was taking 
precautions to do just that.  They still had 5 million men in uniform in on 
the Asian mainland and were beginning to shift them to the home islands to 
meet Operations Cornet and Olympic.
     Even after the SECOND use of the bomb, at Nagasaki, the Imperial War 
Cabinet was deadlocked on the question to surrender.  Hirohito had to cast 
the tie-breaking vote, only the second time in modern Imperial Japanese that 
the emperor had had to vote at all.(2)
     Once Hirohito's surrender speech had been recorded for broadcast, a 
cabal of army officers still came within a whisker of seizing and destroying 
that record.
     An invasion of the Home Islands may not have resulted in the one 
million Allied casulties bandied about, but it still would have been costly. 
  Occupation would have been costly still.  The Japanese, unlike the Nazis, 
had made real plans and provisions for a post-surrender terrorist/resistance 
campaign.
     An Allied invasion would have also included the USSR.  There could have 
been a Tokyo wall to match the one in Berlin.  Today, Japan could be 
struggling to assimilate and rebuild Hokkaido and the northern half of 
Honshu, just as the Germans are still trying to deal with the eastern 
portions of their recently reunited nation.
     Also, an Allied/USSR invasion in 1945 would mean that the entire Korean 
penninsular would now be under the control of the freaks in Pyongyang.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

(1) The Allies had the "recent" (1919) example of Imperial Germany in their 
minds.  An infant grandson of Kaiser Bill installed with a regent may have 
helped the post-WW1 governments of Germany with their problems of internal 
credibility.

(2) The only other time the Emperor had voted, IIRC, was to break the tie 
for the adoption of the Imperial Constitution during the Meiji era.

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 08:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Maksim-Smelchak)
Date: Fri Aug  2 07:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"
In-Reply-To: <151.11ceca62.2a7b936d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPIEEGEDAA.max200@lanset.com>

>>> "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!" >>>

Under the rules of war, we've been discussing, if an enemy intentionally
builds fortifications or other military structures among a civilian
populance, then that enemy becomes rssponsible for the safety of those
aforementioned civilians. If those civilians are actively and willfully
supporting the enemy, then they are no longer considered noncombatants. So,
it IS Al Quaida's fault and responsibility if the US intentionally seeks to
bomb a legitimate military target that Al Qaida has hidden behind a human
shield.

Like someone mentioned earlier, barbarians (or terrorists in our case)
follow no rules, regulations, or niceties. However, we still follow those
rules in the hopes that the enemy might eventually see that war can become a
little less horrible (or barbaric) if we avoid the very worst that war can
bring (biological weapons, chemical weapons, rapine, etc.).

I don't blame the Israelis, the US, India, or any other nation if they incur
civilian casualties to destroy enemies who cravenly use the populations that
they claim their violence advocates as human shields.

On another point, I wouldn't support the dehumanization of another people,
but I also don't support covering up inhuman acts of an enemy for
"humanistic reasons" such as the media mostly forgetting to report on
Palestinian celebrations every time innocent babies and women are killed by
terrorist bombs in the US, Israel, India, or elsewhere. Granted that the
Palestinian Arab thugs threaten reporters with their lives and confiscate
media materials, but there is an element of will involved with reporters who
are willing to risk their lives to enter mostly lawless areas, but aren't
willing to sends their reports back to their publication headquarters.

There are a lot of ideas here to throw at characters in a Traveller
campaign!

Cheers,
Maksim-Smelchak.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Flykiller@aol.com
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 12:49 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Patton

 >The Germans, and
 >particularly the Japanese were horribly dehumanized.  We made our enemies
 >into monsters so then it was OK to exterminate them.

Seems to be part of the human condition.  Not only is the enemy an inhuman
monster and responsible for any and all evil, _we_ are pure as the
wind-driven snow in any and all circumstances. "It's Al Qaida's fault we
bombed a wedding party!"



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 08:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Fri Aug  2 07:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <20020802101235.98a3bb14da2249719a2c69a0b3078a17.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>> (1) - The Swordfishs' very obs0lescence may have actually helped it survive 
>> in battle.  A most likely apophrycal story from the Bismarck saga has the 
>> German AA fire missing the attacking Swordfish because the aircraft were 
>> moving too SLOW, the AA crews led their targets by too much.  Swordfish made 
>> their torpedo runs at ~90 mph and weather conditions could drop that speed 
>> even further.
>>      The Swordfish may been viwed as a joke by other navies, it still got 
>> the job done at Taranto and with the Bismarck however.
>
>I'm pretty sure that their slow speed wasn't a factor in the Bismark 
>action, but it was a factor in the 'Channel Dash' (as was piss poor 
>communications on the British side).

Were they?  I do not remember any FAA torpedo squadrons involved, and the
only torpedo squadron the RAF's Coastal Command had in England (The rest
were in the Med.) had Beauforts, if I remember correctly.

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

 My Sale List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
 My Want List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 09:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Aug  2 08:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Japan, Al Quaida et al
In-Reply-To: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPIEEGEDAA.max200@lanset.com>
References: <151.11ceca62.2a7b936d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B4813.21851.61BFC53@localhost>

Okay, may I please ask people to remember that the TML contains a wide 
variety of people with vastly differing views on a huge range of subjects and 
IMHO that this is not the place to rehash our world's nasty past (or 
present). I think discussing the Imperial Rules of War is great, I think 
discussing and laying blame for the tragedies of the real world is not. I 
believe we have a list (TML-chat) for that purpose.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 09:05:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Fri Aug  2 08:05:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <20020802102615.30aca70d97e74ef18326726c229541ca.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>On 1 Aug 2002 at 20:20, john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:
>
>> OTOH, the Stringbag was never sent into battle against carrier-based 
>> fighters.  The TBD pilots at Midway, meanwhile, had to try to survive 
>> without fighter cover against the A6M Zero.  Hardly a fair contest (of 
>> course, any military leader who tries to fight war _fairly_ isn't doing 
>> the job correctly).
>
>However Swordfish did go up against serious air-cover during the 
>'Channel Dash' by Scharnhost and Gneisenau and while their losses 
>weren't insignificant they weren't as high as they might have been, 
>largely because they were flying so slowly that the German fighters 
>couldn't line up and get decent firing positions on them. The Beauforts 
>which were somewhat faster and had a (slightly) better defensive 
>armament took quite a hammering, IIRC.

Well, it would have greatly improved the British chances of attacking the
German ships if it did not take until just before the Germans were passing
the Straits of Dover to even know they were at sea.  At least then, the
Brits could have had time to assemble an all-out attack instead of send the
aircrafts in dribbles and drabs which allowed the Luftwaffe to kill them.
One of Adolf Galland's finer moments, providing air cover for the cruisers.

There is also an interesting story of how one of the Britsh destroyers that
had sailed to engage the German ships had to turn back for port with engine
trouble.  While she was heading back, the RAF pulled a case of mistaken
identity and attacked her, only to be chased away by a flight of German
Bf-109s who then protected the destoyer and provided top cover until they
ran low on fuel...without ever realizing who they were defending...

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

 My Sale List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
 My Want List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 09:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Aug  2 08:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <20020802101235.98a3bb14da2249719a2c69a0b3078a17.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <3D4B49A4.30448.6221A7B@localhost>

On 2 Aug 2002, at 10:14, Cheng Tseng wrote:

> Were they?  I do not remember any FAA torpedo squadrons involved, and the only
> torpedo squadron the RAF's Coastal Command had in England (The rest were in
> the Med.) had Beauforts, if I remember correctly.

#825 Sqd, Lt Cmdr Esmonde led six Swordfish against the Scharnhorst, 
Gneisenau and Prinz Eugen with their escorts and heavy fighter cover. All 
six were shot down and only by a miracle did 5 of the 18 crew survive. Lt 
Cmdr Esmonde received the FAA's first VC for the attack.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 09:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 08:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <200208021543.g72Fhlw12656@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
...
>Raider-carriers are an excellent idea. I wonder if escort carriers could

  You can upgrade a target to carry a SOTA 50-Dt FH in a 100 ton
bay used for cargo in peacetime.

>counter them. Or if they could carry enough fighters to scrub a decent light
>cruiser before it closed and killed the carrier. Or....

  Sadly, HG2 doesn't allow those sorts of complications, but
any of the hex-based Trav games make riders/carriers _much_ 
less attractive for precisely that reason.

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 10:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 09:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <11ad10118abc.118abc11ad10@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Date: Thursday, August 1, 2002 10:45 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Patton

> on 8/1/02 12:31 PM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:
> 
> > and kill his wife and children.  Don't torture him if you capture
> > him.  In fact, if you capture him he's no longer a threat, so don't
> > kill him at all.
> 
> More than that, if you treat your prisoners well, and the enemy 
> knows it,
> they may be more inclined to surrender.  Would the Iraqis have 
> surrenderedin droves if we were shooting them out of hand and 
> putting their heads on
> poles?  I don't think so.

I forget which historian pointed out that the two pieces of information 
that travel most swiftly through an army in combat are the quality of 
care in one's own hospitals and the way in which the enemy treats 
captured personnel.  Poor prospects in the first case tends to reduce an 
army's effectiveness (who want to risk wounds if a trip to the hospital 
is nearly a guaranteed death sentence?), while poor prospects in the 
latter case tends to increase an army's willingness to fight ("if 
they're going to kill me anyway, I may as well take some of them with 
me!").

Besides, "dead men tell no tales."  In other words, if we kill prisoners 
of war (especially if we kill enemy soldiers trying to surrender), I 
can't interrogate them. ;-)




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 10:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 09:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <13b8e513938c.13938c13b8e5@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
Date: Friday, August 2, 2002 2:08 am
Subject: Re: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships

<<snip>>
> 
> If Side A wins the battle, does this mean they attempt to 
> salvage some Side B ships?  Is there a nuclear scuttle option 
> for capital ships to prevent enemy use?  Or would Side A 
> plant nuclear demolition charges on the wrecks of Side B to 
> ensure that damaged ships are not recovered?

This is from memory, so I may be off slightly....

Well, there is the case of _Bard Endeavour_, an AHL-class fleet 
intruder, during the Solomani Rim War.  The Solomani initiated a 
boarding action to capture the disabled vessel, which was in an unstable 
orbit with inoperable maneuver drives (but a working jump drive).  The 
few survivors of _Bar Endeavour's_ crew managed a textbook example of 
how to resist boarding; the Solomani boarding party was unable to take 
engineering or the auxiliary bridge and eventually evacuated.  47 (IIRC) 
crewbeings rode _Bard Endeavour_ in a catastrophic reentry.

No scuttling charges, but a documented attempt to seize a disabled enemy 
ship.

> ________________
> "I am Weasel!"

"Hear me roar! ;-)"



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 10:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 09:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <3D4B1E74.16706.D41575@localhost>
References: <a6.29f91dee.2a7a2a7a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020802094028.36370018@pop.mindspring.com>

At 12:06 AM 8/3/2002 +1200, you wrote:
>On 1 Aug 2002 at 2:08, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
>
>> This tactic is presented not as a desperation move, but an ordinary
>> one to be implemented if said navy can put up with it.  To which I
>> responded that no fighter pilot community would tolerate it.  Even
>> if the attacking squadron is originally 1000, after two capital
>> ships they'll be combat ineffective using this tactic, and there
>> will be NO volunteers to replace them until the tactic is discarded. 
>
>That's contrary to history - in WWII many units in all combatants 
>armies took those sorts of casualties, and New Zealand, the USA, 
>Britain and the USSR (and probably others) all continued to have people 
>volunteering throughout the war.

See the lines to volunteer for the British Army after Dunkirk or the US
Navy after Pearl Harbor.

People never believe it will happen to them.  It's the other guy that will
die.  Even after two years of trench warfare, troops were *still* going
over the top in futile charges.

The US Army did studies in which they discovered that the longest that a
solider can stay in a combat zone is about 100 days.  After that, he falls
apart.  So the Army began rotating units to rest areas so they could
recharge a little and get roaring drunk and contract VD before going back
into the line.  It will be harder for the Imperium to do this, but I think
it would be a priority to establish some sort of safe zone for the troops.
-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Animals who are not penguins can only wish they were.
-Chicago reader, 10/15/82

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 10:50:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 09:50:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <3D4B1F74.9458.D7FBED@localhost>
References: <8d.1bfa1383.2a7a4253@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020802094239.36dff48c@pop.mindspring.com>

At 12:10 AM 8/3/2002 +1200, you wrote:
>On 1 Aug 2002 at 3:50, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
>
>>  >> He will shuck and jive, pretend equipment failures, or run.  He most
>>  >> certainly won't volunteer for that sort of duty again.
>>  >
>>  >That's a pretty low opinion of a fellow officer
>> 
>> A fellow officer, he says!  They wouldn't be officers, they'd be cannon 
>> fodder.  And they'd know it.
>
>Interesting that you see figther pilots as having the state of non-
>cannon fodder as their natural state, and that they'd be scarce 
>resources. I can't see them as being any more or less expendable than 
>any other ship crew, as all crew positions that are combat relevant are 
>skilled. I also find your position interesting in that it assumes that 
>highly skilled people are 'more cautious' (to be polite) than those 
>that are supposedly less highly trained/skilled (like grunts).

Hell, as a sniper I was considered to be a highly-skilled soldier (not
cannon-fodder) and was expected to do insane things that were extremely
dangerous and most often fatal.  Snipers are rarely taken prisoner.  Enemy
troops tend to kill them when they are caught.  Doesn't stop the flow of
volunteers.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 10:51:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 09:51:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller HIDING
In-Reply-To: <124.1460d565.2a7b535d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020802094449.364f9a92@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:15 PM 8/1/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>Yes, basking in verbally-asserted superiority is indeed much more pleasant 
>than risking actual defeat.  But of course indulging in this makes you a 
>coward.

Uncalled for.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 10:52:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 09:52:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <140bd3139f9e.139f9e140bd3@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: James Ramsay <quakers_united@yahoo.com.au>
Date: Friday, August 2, 2002 2:23 am
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller

> QUOTE
> This tactic is presented not as a desperation move,
> but an ordinary one to be implemented if said navy can
> put up with it.  To which I responded that 
> no fighter pilot community would tolerate it.  Even if
> the attacking squadron is originally 1000, after two
> capital ships they'll be combat ineffective 
> using this tactic, and there will be NO volunteers to
> replace them until the tactic 
> is discarded.
> END QUOTE
> 
> But wouldn't more people die if it was cap ship vs.
> cap ship?

<tongue-in-cheek>

Yes, but (assuming that Imperial Navy practice is similar to US Navy 
practice since the end of WW II) the fighter pilots are all officers and 
gentlemen, while many of the capital ship crewbeings are mere ratings.

</tongue-in-cheek>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Meduim Navies
Message-ID: <3D4AB9A9.6B6DB02@mail.cswnet.com>

Three years ago Ian Ferguson posted a wonderful little thing called
"Small
Navies". I liked the idea very much, since I tried doing a straight TCS
and 
discovered that it created massive navies. However, Ian's "Small Navies"
was
just to small for my taste. I wanted something that would look like the
Fifth Frontier War Game, but not as big as a straight TCS Campaign. So,
after some thought, I've ginned this up. I call it "Meduim Navies".

Items used:
Ian Fergusons' "Small Navies" post (for budget modifiers)
Adventure 5 Trillion Credit Squadron
Striker (for apportionment).

Step one:
Generate peacetime naval budget

peacetime naval budget: Cr50 per person
	xTCS peacetime government type modifier (1.3 for type 7)
	x1.5 for Rich Worlds
	x.5 for Poor Worlds
	x2 for Independant Worlds

Step two:
Apportion Initial Naval Budget

70% goes to planetary and colonial navies
30% goes to Imperial forces

Step three:
Initial fleet budget

Per Adventure 5, ten times peacetime budget.
Apportioned 80% current tech, 20% lower tech.

For worlds TL6-, allow for mercenaries to be hired
at half the budget that would have gone to the navy.
Using meduim navies, this will allow for allot of 
mercenary ships, which ought to be more plentiful
than they seem to be. I would be interested in knowing
exactly how large a ship the Imperuim would permit Mercs
to use, and what armament the 3I would allow them to have.
Thoughts anyone?

Alternately, you could allow for the Imperial Scout Service
to recieve this money. Whatever floats your boat.

Initial Fleets, Lunion subsector

Imperial Navy MCr 2,835,544.748

Wardn. MCr 55
Smoug MCr 14700
Rabwhar MCr115,500 [divided by 2 and converted to Starport A TL12
Credits,
MCr 26497.0589. This would give Rabwhar something in the neighborhood of
57-58 Type C Merc Cruisers].
Adabicci MCr 322,000
Zaibon MCr 148.75
Ianic MCr 5433.75 [divided by 2 and converted to Starport A TL12
Credits,
MCr 894.9705. Gives Ianic a Type C Merc Cruiser and a couple of
escorts].
Spirelle MCr 312,375
Derchon MCr 36,225
Lunion MCr 3,080,000
Shirine MCr 252
Harvoset MCr 14175
Perisephone MCr 28350
Capon MCr 17,850
Strouden MCr 3,465,000

Note that I do not divide planetary and subsector navies. Basically,
my attitude is if it jumps its part of the subsector navy, if it 
doesn't jump its part of the planetary navy/coacc. Population is
from Spinward Marches campaign [eg Arba pop 2 multiplier 6, 600 people].
Pop differs from BTC but makes things easier/more uniform for the tax
preparer. I've also done this for the Lanth subsector. The Imperial
Navy gets MCr 68673.42 there for its initial fleet. Not having a High
Pop worlds makes a big difference.

This does take a little bit of work to do, but once you get the initial
fleet budgets up, you can get ahold of Andrew Moffat Vallences' High 
Guard Shipyard and Trillion Credit Squadron programs and build navies
to your hearts content.

I've already started on this for Adabicci. Its not complete yet, but
here is a partial list, using some ships built by AMV and some built 
by me.

TL11 Adabicci Squadron
1xArkansas [Washington Class] Battleship [!!!] 
Note: Thanks for building this Andrew, I've gotten a big kick out of
it.
5xCasiopia Destroyers
10xDaring Missile Boats
1xGriffon Missile  Boat Tender
5xT11  class Patrol Cruisers
10xType S class Scouts
5xBattle class Couriers
2xAmbush class Destroyers
5xFolgore class Assault Ships

TL10 Adabicci Squadron
10xDFC Frigates
30xAndrea Doria Auxilliary Transports

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Friends in High Places, Part Four.
In-Reply-To: <151.11ceca62.2a7b936d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020802120329.00793b30@minn.net>

                     Friends in High Places
                                
                           Part Four


     The walls of the Municipal Jail in Oshkosh on Regina were
painted in a standard institutional shade of light green. The
light reflected from the walls gave all persons and physical
objects in the jail a greenish tinge in appearance.
     "There is no spoon." Said Dana Wolfsburg. 
     Nothing happened.
     "There's no knives or forks either." Said the assistant
gunner, who very obviously failed to get the flat-film reference.
     The four members of the landing party were in the men's
holding tank at the Municipal Jail. Even though her gender on the
Imperial identification card was listed as female, Dana was stuck
in the men's tank because the local police gene-scanner persisted
in identifying her as a male human. This would merely be annoying
if the four crew members from the CHAUCHAT were alone in the
men's holding tank.
     Nursing a variety of non-lethal blunt-force injuries at the
other end of the holding tank were the surviving male members of
the local Orthodox Bargerite congregation. Three of them had been
dumb enough to actually shoot at the Imperial Marines who were
called in to deal with the armed altercation between the
Bargerites and the crew of the CHAUCHAT. The Marines promptly and
permanently removed the three trigger happy Bargerites from the
human gene pool.
     The door of the men's holding tank opened. Four Marines in
full battle dress and wielding stun-staffs walked in and formed a
line between the Bargerites and the landing party. Following the
Marines into the room was the Captain of the former Imperial Navy
Ship CHAUCHAT. 
     "Before you leave this joint," said Dennis Sterling to his
crew, "I want all of you to know that I, really and truly, DO NOT
enjoy asking for favors from Imperial officials."
     Dennis paused for dramatic effect.
     "Do all of you understand?"
     They did. The assistant gunner spoke up.
     "Are we taking your ex-wife with us?"
     Dennis glared at the subordinate, before he could give voice
to an answer to the damned question there came a noise from
across the cell. One of the Bargerites stood up and voiced with
obscene embellishment his claim to Helen, the former wife of the
Captain. With clenched fists the thug attempted to charge at the
Captain. Before the Marines could act, Dennis drew his pistol and
placed an 11.4 mm round through the thug's forehead.
     Captain Sterling glared at the remaining Bargerites.
     "Anyone else want to try me?"

     Doc continued to stare at the Tarot deck sitting on the
floor before her. 
     What was the point of having a Tarot deck if she wasn't
going to use it? The feeling of impending doom wasn't about to go
away by itself. At least do a three card spread.
     Doc picked up the deck and started to shuffle it.

     Ditzie was waiting at the front desk of the local jail, she
was sitting on a black ballistic cloth duffle bag. Standing next
to her was a Vargr in a black trench coat with black sunglasses.  
     Dennis introduced the Vargr to the rest of his crew.
     "This is Daevagh, he was a Lieutenant Commander in the
Imperial Navy, and he will be our navigator on the coming
voyage."
     The other crew members were worried, what voyage?
     Ditzie stood and spoke up.
     "We're going to the Vargr Extents!"
     
     Even though the Captain wasn't present, Doc decided to use
his as the Querent, the person for whom the divination was being
performed. A reasonable choice since the fate of all souls aboard
the CHAUCHAT was bound up to his.
     The first card Doc drew was the Page of Swords, not much of
a surprise there, the Captain was a former naval intelligence
officer.

     Dennis had other unfinished business to attend to, he
stepped into the women's holding cell. Loosely bunched at one end
of the cell were the female companions of the Orthodox
Bargerites, they were either unconscious or too badly injured to
move. Sitting on a bench at the other end of the cell was his
former wife, Helen. 
     Dennis raised an eyebrow in a Spock-like manner, there was
once a time when he would have wondered how Helen ended up with
the Angels of Hell. He spoke to her.
     "It appears Madame, that you were not subjected to a proper
strip search." 
     Helen stood up and slowly walked over to him.  In height she
only came up to his nose.
     "Do you want to do a proper strip search now?" She cooed.
     "Madame," he answered, "if it were entirely up to me I would
leave you here with your friends." He gestured to the pile of
beat-up Barger-babes on the other side of the cell.
     "But," he continued, "I've been directed by the Imperial
authorities to remove you from this planet." 
     Helen's facial expression changed from sweet and seductive
to a focused frown.
     "So," Dennis concluded, "let us not make this situation any
more unpleasant than it has to be."
 
     The second card that Doc drew from the deck was The Fool,
reversed. The card normally depicted a young man and his dog
embarking on a journey of discovery. Reversed, the card meant
that the journey would be fraught with hazards. 

     The police sergeant at the front desk was being difficult.
He was refusing to return the weapons seized from the landing
party. The pistols would have been easy enough to replace, but
replacing the customized Advanced Combat Rifles would have taken
time that Dennis and his crew could ill afford to waste. 
     "Sergeant," Dennis again pulled out and unfolded a sheet of
official Imperial Stationary from his pocket, "what part of this
warrant did you not understand?"
     The desk sergeant originally seemed happy to see Captain
Sterling walk in through the front door of the jail, until the
Captain pulled out a Ducal Warrant and a squad of Marines. 
     "Do I have to read it to you again?"

     Doc drew the third card from the deck.
     It was The Tower.
     "Oh, shit..."

     The Lone Sniper woke up with the taste of mud and plastic in
his mouth. He felt like he was immersed in warm water.
     The last thing that he remembered was his falling from a
radio and navigational light tower at a landing field on the
planet Regina. Fortunately, he fell flat forward into the pool of
muddy water adjacent to the concrete base of the tower.
Unfortunately, the water at the point of impact was only fifteen
centimeters deep.
     The Lone Sniper opened his eyes. He was secured by straps
and surgical tape in an Imperial standard regeneration tank in a
hospital somewhere on Regina.
     This wouldn't be so bad if he was unconscious. 
     Except of course for the fact that patients in the regen
tank aren't supposed to be wide awake.  
     The Lone Sniper couldn't even scream this time.

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:08:02 2002
Subject: JTAS Contest (was: Re: [TML] warship optimization in traveller)
Message-ID: <15003d14e409.14e40915003d@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: David Shayne <daveshayne@ameritech.net>
Date: Friday, August 2, 2002 4:24 am
Subject: Re: [TML] warship optimization in traveller

> > From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
> > Date: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 11:41 pm
> >
> 
> <snip>
> 
> > For JTAS subscribers, the recently-completed starship design 
> > contest (Contest #10) had some excellent hospital ships, albeit 
> > mostly using design sequences other than HG2.  Note, though, 
> that 
> > the winning design (not mine, sad to say) was built using HG2.
> 
> That design would have been mine. And IMHO it wasn't the best 
> design in
> that contest. I won, I believe, because of my shameless 
> misappropriationof 20th century american pop culture icons. (I 
> must have been channeling
> Dave Nilsen)

Just out of curiosity, which one did you vote for?  I was caught up in 
the actual deployment from Ft. Carson to Sinai, so I didn't submit a 
vote, but I probably would have voted for _Sanctuary_, the 300,000 dton 
converted Fleet Support Tanker [*].
> 
> All of which reminds me that I have to firm up the details for the 
> nextdesign contest.

Now that I have relatively reliable Internet access again, I eagerly 
await the next JTAS contest [**].

[*] Actually, I liked my own design best, but I've always viewed voting 
for your own ship in such a contest as gauche.

[**] For those who would like to participate, just go to the 
Starship/Vehicle Design discussion board on JTAS.  Not a subscriber?  
Why not?  It's only $15 US per two years for biweekly issues and access 
to archives, discussion boards and Brubek's chat room.  [And if you 
mention that aurictech referred you, I get a free month added to _my_ 
subscription! ;-)]

http://jtas.sjgames.com/subscribe/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:08:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:08:43 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <11c.14c7f23e.2a7b7e6b@aol.com>
References: <11c.14c7f23e.2a7b7e6b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3it2tkx3r.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
> 
> In reference to the original post that started all this, I don't
> know what else to say, 'cept I'm glad all these true warriors aren't
> in charge of making making major procurement and force deployment
> decisions.

I think a point which many have been trying to make is that those
decisions are made exactly according to such criteria.  Hence the
references to real-life battles and situations.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
If you're a politician, bureaucrat, or cop whose livelihood depends on
the drug war, you're fully as contemptible as any pusher, smuggler, or
cocaine baron--more so, because, unlike them, you profit directly by
destroying what was once the greatest freedom ever known to mankind.
                              --Mirelle Stein, The Productive Class

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] AC-130 losses [was something?]
Message-ID: <3D4ABE97.F32CD2F5@mail.cswnet.com>

I can't remember who wanted this or why, but here goes:

AC-130 losses, Vietnam
3 Aircraft, 52 aircrew
*also, IIRC from dad, 1 aircraft made it back to base but never
flew again.
Most losses from Triple A or SA-7.

AC-130 losses, Gulf War
1 Aircraft, 14 aircrew
Believed to be lost from a SA-16.

AC-130 Somalia operations [Kenya accident]
1 Aircraft, 8 aircrew
Accident; crashed off of Kenya coast.

For further details:
http://www.Spectre-association.org/

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <76.201d4ff6.2a7b1285@aol.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMENMIJAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>


 >>  >They might want more choices besides Dreadnaughts.
 >>
 >> Show me your choices.  I'd love to see 'em.
 >
 >Low-end ships so you can do all your jobs within your budget maybe?

I understand that, but there's the question of what your enemy is doing.
Consider the extreams -- if your goal is to win engagements then you'll want
a few expensive capital ships, but if you want to "do all the jobs" then
you'll want a herd of warm bodies (as it were).  Between the extreams is the
balance -- but where is it?  I think it's way over in the "win engagements"
side.  If you "cover all the bases" with warm bodies but have to flee every
time the heavyweight enemy shows up then what good is that?  There is no
substitute for victory, and to get that victory you need the heavyweights
and
you need more of them than your enemy.

 >Patrol ships and tankers and whatever you plan to escort the talkers with.

If by patrol you mean scouts, then yes.  But if you mean general policing
then I'd think that would be a local police matter and not a fleet matter.
If I'm an admiral at Jewell looking at 1000 Zhodie capital ship in Cronor,
and I hear about some pirates at Enope, I'd have to set priorities and ask
Wochiers to deal with it.  Since imminent war is not a constant threat, if
some patrols were desperately needed by local governments then I'd send some
screening vessels to deal with the problem and then return.

As for tankers (?), if I had any I'd just keep them with the fleet.

>The USN,
>for example, has other ships than carriers or attack subs (whichever you
>consider to be the capital ship). Most navies have some high-end combat
>ships and low-end workhorses.

That's because of real-world issues regarding weapon load capacities, size
vs
speed, air / surface / sub environment requirements, hull-shape
requirements,
and dozens of other factors, make such specialization necessary and
effective.  These issues don't transfer well to a Traveller universe.  In
Traveller everyone can go just as fast as the next guy, they all can carry
the same weapons, there's no limitation on size or hull configuration, and
so
on.  Would you put an Ageis system on a cargo ship?  You can do it in
Traveller, and it works.  Would you put ten inch armor on a destroyer?  You
can do it in Traveller, and it works.  Effective combat ships will all tend
towards the same hull/weapons/defenses configuration, and specialization
will
become mere limitation.

My Spinward Marches Colonial Fleet has supply vessels, hospital ships,
minesweepers, and other stuff in addition to its capital vessels.  But they
are all sideshows, and minor elements of the fleet -- maybe 5% of the total
tonnage.  I intend to win the major engagements first -- I'll clean up any
leftover messes after I win.

Mr. Flykiller

I've been following this debate over ships.

A config 7, dispersed structure, ship has the
highest to hit target of any configuration.
A high agility, high computer size A or less
meson escort is the hardest to hit of any ship.
Other weapons find it hard to hit with as well.
Additionally, is features the lowest hull cost.

A Wombat swarmers is an anti capital ship weapon.
They are realitively inexpensive, has low crew
sizes, and back up computers, bridges and low berths to
increase their staying power.

In game terms a Wombat has a size mod of -1, and agility
of 6 and a computer 9 giving it a to hit mod of
-14 + computer attacking ship (renderinging it unhittable
by anything other then a Meson M meson spinal mountor
better which a T hits on an  10, 11 or 12 , Q-s hit on
11 or 12 and the others only hit on a 12 assuming
a type 9 computer with an allotment of two extra PP levels
to soak up PP hits.  they have a back up level 9 computer
and 30 low berths -- allowing for 3 levels of crew hits.
In Trilion Credit Squadron senerios, they only soak
up one pilot and work on the factor 9 meson gun column.

1	10
2	9
3	7
4	4
5	3
6	6
7	12
8	2
9	11

before any modifactions. Most Capital ships are at least size B
so it is at worst a +1 in any exchange of fire

Interesingly, with the backups and lack of Armour, she has
weapon hits to fear the most -- she has no screens and jump
drives, so spinal weapons are at a disadvantage against it --
only 10 and 12 on pentrating hits are  mission kills on the
radiation table while 8 and 11 are MKs on the Surface explosion
table.  the +6 DM that sub 9 bay/batteries have acually hurt
her more.  PA that can hurt it, at best -- assuming a 9 computer --
need a 10 or better to hit while missiles need a seven
at best

The Wombat is a specialists and can be hurt, but the things that
can hurt it are at a disavantage trying to hit it and things
that can hit it do find it hard to Mission kill it.  Costing
DD price range, they threaten any capital ship scoring weapon
and computer hits through radiation hits and all but Critical and
shattered fuel hits on hits and penetrate and score interior hits.

Ship: Fred
Class: Wombat
Type: Meson Swarmer
Architect: jml
Tech Level: 15

USP
         Es-A706Z92-000000-00090-0 MCr 1,405.500 1 KTons
Bat Bear                      1    Crew: 19
Bat                           1    TL: 15

Cargo: 9.000 Fuel: 300.000 EP: 300.000 Agility: 6
Backups: 1 x Model/9 Computer 1 x Bridge
Substitutions: Z = 30

Architects Fee: MCr 14.055   Cost in Quantity: MCr 1,124.400


Detailed Description

HULL
1,000.000 tons standard, 14,000.000 cubic meters, Dispersed Structure
Configuration

CREW
Pilot, Navigator, 14 Engineers, Medic, 2 Gunners

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 6G Manuever, Power plant-30, 300.000 EP, Agility 6

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/9 Computer
1 Backup Bridge, 1 Model/9 Backup Computer

HARDPOINTS
1 100-ton bay

ARMAMENT
1 100-ton Meson Bay (Factor-9)

DEFENCES
None

CRAFT
None

FUEL
300.000 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
No Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
10.0 Staterooms, 30 Low Berths, 9.000 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 1,419.555 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 14.055), MCr 1,124.400 in
Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
120 Weeks Singly, 96 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <1666ad163c67.163c671666ad@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Date: Friday, August 2, 2002 3:51 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] warship optimization in traveller

> On 1 Aug 2002 at 16:42, Hurrel, Brian wrote:
> 
> > "No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy."
> > 
> > I'm paraphrasing, and can't remember who said this. Maybe 
> Clausewitz(SP?).
> Moltke, IIRC, but it's probably about as old as warfare itself.

FWIW, I recall reading a corollary to this quote:

"No unit ever survived contact with the enemy _without_ a battle plan."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:44:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:44:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CF7@USCHM203>

>The Germans, and
 >particularly the Japanese were horribly dehumanized.  We made our enemies
 >into monsters so then it was OK to exterminate them.

If there was any dehumanizing of the Germans and Japanese, they did it
themselves through their own brutality. 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith Mormon minion of Arioch)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CF7@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <007f01c23a4c$9e46f0d0$6f7ba8c0@kenneith93j41k>

Well actually we did it with our propaganda before we even found out they
were basterds, don't; get me wrong what they did was wrong, but at the time
we chose a path also to get our war machine in motion.
Ken

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comics
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you
http://www.geocities.com/J_Elric_Smith/Index.html
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 1:43 PM
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization


> >The Germans, and
>  >particularly the Japanese were horribly dehumanized.  We made our
enemies
>  >into monsters so then it was OK to exterminate them.
>
> If there was any dehumanizing of the Germans and Japanese, they did it
> themselves through their own brutality.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <004301c23a04$8cdeff60$0112bd50@martinjd>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
 <m3ofclg93m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
 <004301c23a04$8cdeff60$0112bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <m3eldhkv8o.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> writes:
> 
> There are simulator drawbacks--`simulator sickness--which is kind of
> psychosomatic motion sickness, can begin to manifest itself on real
> missions (or cause them to not do certain things because they expect
> sim sickness).

Again, a sufficiently advanced computer (I'm talking about Moore's law
for 2,000 years: capacity increasing by 1.5 every 1.5 years for 2,000
years is a 6.1425e234 increase; by 2 every 2 years is a 1.0715e301
increase) can model sufficiently well that one will experience bad
effects exactly as in real life...

> And they can develop a habit of recklessness since they can't die,
> which is bad if carried over, or sometimes evaporates in a mist of
> nerves because suddenly they CAN.

Granted--I'm not arguing that sims would replace training, but that
basic piloting skills might very well be widespread in the population
due to the prevalence of sims.  That is, much as manipulating a
first-person shooter is pretty much common to 95% of teenage males
today, the basics of piloting a fighter craft might be common to 95%
of teenage males in thefar future.  Thus fighter training might be
much quicker and risk-free than currently, and consequently fighter
pilots might be significantly cheaper.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
What did you do to the cat? It looks half-dead.
                         --Schroedinger's wife

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CF7@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208021045440.12501-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 2 Aug 2002, Hurrel, Brian wrote:

>  >The Germans, and
>  >particularly the Japanese were horribly dehumanized.  We made our enemies
>  >into monsters so then it was OK to exterminate them.
> 
> If there was any dehumanizing of the Germans and Japanese, they did it
> themselves through their own brutality. 

Um, all of them, even the children?

The problem with dehumanization is that it invites things like rape and
torture of noncombatants, and just because one side is doing that does not
mean it's a good idea, or OK, for the other side to do it.

Kiri

**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:53:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:53:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in traveller)
Message-ID: <F244ozCsVINDnKgXhLy00004901@hotmail.com>

Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:
>The US Army did studies in which they discovered that the
>longest that a solider can stay in a combat zone is about
>100 days.  After that, he falls apart.  So the Army began
>rotating units to rest areas so they could recharge a little
>and get roaring drunk and contract VD before going back
>into the line.  It will be harder for the Imperium to do this,
>but I think it would be a priority to establish some sort of
>safe zone for the troops.

It's an old saw that military service is extended periods of
boredom punctuated by short periods of stark terror.  Imagine
if an army used sleeper ships to move their troops around...
soldiers whose military service consisted of sleeping through
the extended periods of boredom, and only being awake for the
periods of stark terror.

That kind of setup might be cheap when it came to starship
life support costs, but I imagine the impact on the soldiers'
psyches would be extreme.

I remember a sci-fi tale of soldiers such as this, warriors
who would sleep for ages and only wake for war, while society
changed around them into unrecognizability...it wasn't
Gordon R. Dickson's _Soldier, Ask Not_, was it?

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (R. Michael Stephens)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in traveller)
References: <F244ozCsVINDnKgXhLy00004901@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D4AC860.5000504@vanderbilt.edu>

Similar effects in Jack Chalker's "Forever War", very fast STL, large 
time dialation effects, and IIRC hibernation.

Walt Smith wrote:
> Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:
> 
>> The US Army did studies in which they discovered that the
>> longest that a solider can stay in a combat zone is about
>> 100 days.  After that, he falls apart.  So the Army began
>> rotating units to rest areas so they could recharge a little
>> and get roaring drunk and contract VD before going back
>> into the line.  It will be harder for the Imperium to do this,
>> but I think it would be a priority to establish some sort of
>> safe zone for the troops.
> 
> 
> It's an old saw that military service is extended periods of
> boredom punctuated by short periods of stark terror.  Imagine
> if an army used sleeper ships to move their troops around...
> soldiers whose military service consisted of sleeping through
> the extended periods of boredom, and only being awake for the
> periods of stark terror.
> 
> That kind of setup might be cheap when it came to starship
> life support costs, but I imagine the impact on the soldiers'
> psyches would be extreme.
> 
> I remember a sci-fi tale of soldiers such as this, warriors
> who would sleep for ages and only wake for war, while society
> changed around them into unrecognizability...it wasn't
> Gordon R. Dickson's _Soldier, Ask Not_, was it?
> 
> Walt Smith
> Firelock on DALNet
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


-- 
--
R. Michael Stephens               Systems Software Specialist
Vanderbilt University         Information Technology Services
Systems Development & Implementation      VUwebmail Developer
Nashville TN.  USA  R.M.Stephens@Vanderbilt.Edu  615.343.8780


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 12:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 11:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208021045440.12501-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <B9701696.6773B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/2/02 10:49 AM, Azalais Malfoy at tiamat@tsoft.com wrote:

>> If there was any dehumanizing of the Germans and Japanese, they did it
>> themselves through their own brutality.
> 
> Um, all of them, even the children?
> 
> The problem with dehumanization is that it invites things like rape and
> torture of noncombatants, and just because one side is doing that does not
> mean it's a good idea, or OK, for the other side to do it.
> 

Just to bring this back to Traveller,  how do the Imperium portray it's
adversaries?  We can probably guess that the Solomani do a bit of
dehumanizing propaganda against their Imperial foe.  How does the Imperium
portray the Zhodani and Solomani to it's citizenry.  And is there an
Imperial Ministry for Propaganda?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 12:11:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fred Ramen)
Date: Fri Aug  2 11:11:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Blowing holes in Japan (was " Re Patton")
Message-ID: <009d01c23a4f$d11f1de0$f42bf7a5@pctframen>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> writes:

"An Allied invasion would have also included the USSR.  There could have
been a Tokyo wall to match the one in Berlin.  Today, Japan could be
struggling to assimilate and rebuild Hokkaido and the northern half of
Honshu, just as the Germans are still trying to deal with the eastern
portions of their recently reunited nation."

My dear Mr. Whipsnade,

Given that without a unified Japan many of the U.S.'s conflicts in Asia
(Korea, Vietnam, guaranteeing the independence of Taiwan) would likely have
been fantastically difficult or impossible, in your alternate scenario the
Tokyo (and perhaps Berlin!) walls might likely still be up! A divided Japan
would have made it almost impossible for the US to prosecute the war in
Korea without the conflict spreading into a general US/Soviet war, for
example.

Fred "Paging Dr. Turtledove" Ramen


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 12:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 11:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
 traveller)
In-Reply-To: <3D4AC860.5000504@vanderbilt.edu>
Message-ID: <B9701A4C.6777A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/2/02 10:58 AM, R. Michael Stephens at Robert.M.Stephens@vanderbilt.edu
wrote:

> Similar effects in Jack Chalker's "Forever War", very fast STL, large
> time dialation effects, and IIRC hibernation.

That's Joe Haldeman's "Forever War"

[snip]
>> 
>> I remember a sci-fi tale of soldiers such as this, warriors
>> who would sleep for ages and only wake for war, while society
>> changed around them into unrecognizability...it wasn't
>> Gordon R. Dickson's _Soldier, Ask Not_, was it?
>> 


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 12:25:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (R. Michael Stephens)
Date: Fri Aug  2 11:25:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in	traveller)
References: <B9701A4C.6777A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D4ACED6.3070507@vanderbilt.edu>

Right.  Thanks.  Aging memory is not a fun thing.

Mike

Tod Glenn wrote:
> on 8/2/02 10:58 AM, R. Michael Stephens at Robert.M.Stephens@vanderbilt.edu
> wrote:
> 
> 
>>Similar effects in Jack Chalker's "Forever War", very fast STL, large
>>time dialation effects, and IIRC hibernation.
> 
> 
> That's Joe Haldeman's "Forever War"
> 
> [snip]
> 
>>>I remember a sci-fi tale of soldiers such as this, warriors
>>>who would sleep for ages and only wake for war, while society
>>>changed around them into unrecognizability...it wasn't
>>>Gordon R. Dickson's _Soldier, Ask Not_, was it?
>>>
>>
> 
> 
> --
> When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.


-- 
--
R. Michael Stephens               Systems Software Specialist
Vanderbilt University         Information Technology Services
Systems Development & Implementation      VUwebmail Developer
Nashville TN.  USA  R.M.Stephens@Vanderbilt.Edu  615.343.8780


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 12:52:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 11:52:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Rowan's Beasts
Message-ID: <3D4AD3D0.CD2C003@mail.cswnet.com>

I've decided to play in the bestiary for a little bit, in part to work
on some pc stuff and to take a break from starships.

Rowan's Beasts, from Supplement 6, Page 13.

I've decided to model these after the Roan Antelope, especially since I
have absolutely no biological/zooalogical experience/training to help
me with a discriptive commentary.

Herbivore/Grazer (4d)
weight: 400kg
hits: 16/9
armor: none
weapons: hooves and horns
wounds: 12
A:4 F:1 S:3

Believed to originate from Terra, Rowans have been transported to a
number of other systems. Its horns are a highly prized hunting trophey,
and it is also used by a number of religous cults as a symbolic figure.
They usually have a brown-grey coat, with black and white head markings
and a black tail. The male horns typically are 40-50cm in length, and
are curved backwards. Females also sport horns, but these are not as
long. Rowan are typically encountered in clear grass land, prairie, and 
savanah type environments. Usually found in herds of 20 and 100
animals, with between 1 to 5 males per group. Typical gestation period
runs between 270-300 days, with one offspring usually resulting. They 
typically have a lifespan of 18 years.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CF9@USCHM203>

> Ken wrote:
[re Germans and Japanese]

>Well actually we did it with our propaganda before we even found out they
>were basterds, don't; get me wrong what they did was wrong, but at the time
>we chose a path also to get our war machine in motion.

You have a point. One of the reasons people were very slow to believe
reports of German atrocities during WWII was because they remembered all the
false propaganda reports of German atrocities during WWI.

Personally, I find it hard to shed many tears for Hiroshima, Nagasaki, or
Dresden. Cold? Maybe. Avoidable or unneccessary? Perhaps in hindsight, but
that's a luxury no one had at the time. 
Do I condone the mass bombing of civilians or celebrate the deaths of
children? No. But as far as I'm concerned the Germans and Japanese were
ultimately responsible for their own destruction.
The Allies also showed much greater restraint than would have been shown us
if the tables were turned. I have no doubt the Axis powers, had they won,
would have gone on a rampage of looting, rape, genocide, and destruction
that would boggle the mind, and luckily remains in the realm of
science-fiction.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CFA@USCHM203>

Kiri wrote:

>Um, all of them, even the children?

No. But children often cannot keep their parents from acting foolishly and
putting them in danger.

Anyway, for the most part, it was not an Allied policy to target
non-combatants. Civilians live near factories, and factories are going to be
bombed. Also, bombers had nowhere near the precision of today's smart
weapons. What took one cruise missile during the gulf war would have taken a
flight of B17s 45 years earlier.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:18:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:18:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller HIDING
Message-ID: <F96dOgl4rhYQYx3G5aY00000042@hotmail.com>

Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:
<snip Flykiller's comments>
>
>Uncalled for.

To be fair, I was in the process of descending down to his
level, and I had a few uncalled for comments myself.

I am *not* interested in undertaking a contest with Flykiller,
and he is welcome to think of it what he will.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Carolyn & Royce)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <3D4B28F8.948.FD2916@localhost>
Message-ID: <007101c23a5b$5a5d63e0$6f142c42@roycereiss>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 8:51 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] warship optimization in traveller


On 1 Aug 2002 at 16:42, Hurrel, Brian wrote:

> "No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy."
>
> I'm paraphrasing, and can't remember who said this. Maybe Clausewitz(SP?).

Moltke, IIRC, but it's probably about as old as warfare itself.

--
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

I prefer the follow from Moltke the Elder
"Plans are nothing,  planning is everything"

Roy


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net><m3ofclg93m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org><004301c23a04$8cdeff60$0112bd50@martinjd> <m3eldhkv8o.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <00aa01c23a5c$4f293ca0$5d0bbd50@martinjd>

> "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> writes:
> >
> > There are simulator drawbacks--`simulator sickness--which is kind of
> > psychosomatic motion sickness, can begin to manifest itself on real
> > missions (or cause them to not do certain things because they expect
> > sim sickness).
>
> Again, a sufficiently advanced computer (I'm talking about Moore's law
> for 2,000 years: capacity increasing by 1.5 every 1.5 years for 2,000
> years is a 6.1425e234 increase; by 2 every 2 years is a 1.0715e301
> increase) can model sufficiently well that one will experience bad
> effects exactly as in real life...

Okay, if you can manage to simulate g stress and all the other stuff too,
then my comment above doesn't apply. If not, it does. You need more than an
amazing computer for this. Which translates to "again, I don't believe in
perfect simulators".

>
> > And they can develop a habit of recklessness since they can't die,
> > which is bad if carried over, or sometimes evaporates in a mist of
> > nerves because suddenly they CAN.
>
> Granted--I'm not arguing that sims would replace training, but that
> basic piloting skills might very well be widespread in the population
> due to the prevalence of sims.  That is, much as manipulating a
> first-person shooter is pretty much common to 95% of teenage males
> today, the basics of piloting a fighter craft might be common to 95%
> of teenage males in thefar future.  Thus fighter training might be
> much quicker and risk-free than currently, and consequently fighter
> pilots might be significantly cheaper.

Or society will be full of people who think they can flyb fighters, who
think they understand fuighter tactics, and who think they don't have to
listen to the instructors. I get this all the time teaching self-defense to
young men who think they know how to punch. They don't listen and don't get
any better. This actually means that the "human wave" attack might be
plausible. It'sd all you can do with these people. The French Revolutionary
army had a similar problem when it tries to turn the victorious volunteers
into a real army with discipline and manuever capability.





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:29:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:29:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMENMIJAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <00ab01c23a5c$506fc660$5d0bbd50@martinjd>

> Ship: Fred
> Class: Wombat
> Type: Meson Swarmer
> Architect: jml
> Tech Level: 15

These are nice. I notice that they're not fighters.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:30:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:30:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <200208021543.g72Fhlw12656@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <00af01c23a5c$51d040c0$5d0bbd50@martinjd>

> >counter them. Or if they could carry enough fighters to scrub a decent
light
> >cruiser before it closed and killed the carrier. Or....
>
>   Sadly, HG2 doesn't allow those sorts of complications, but
> any of the hex-based Trav games make riders/carriers _much_
> less attractive for precisely that reason.
>

Agreed. This is why I believe that HG/TCS alone do not present a framework
for creating a believable starfaring navy.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:31:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:31:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
References: <3D4B49A4.30448.6221A7B@localhost>
Message-ID: <00b101c23a5c$5444ea40$5d0bbd50@martinjd>

> On 2 Aug 2002, at 10:14, Cheng Tseng wrote:
>
> > Were they?  I do not remember any FAA torpedo squadrons involved, and
the only
> > torpedo squadron the RAF's Coastal Command had in England (The rest were
in
> > the Med.) had Beauforts, if I remember correctly.
>
> #825 Sqd, Lt Cmdr Esmonde led six Swordfish against the Scharnhorst,
> Gneisenau and Prinz Eugen with their escorts and heavy fighter cover. All
> six were shot down and only by a miracle did 5 of the 18 crew survive. Lt
> Cmdr Esmonde received the FAA's first VC for the attack.

One of my obscurely related uncles was killed in the Channel Dash, attacking
the Scharnhorst in a torpedo boat. Never got anywhere near, but his widow
went to Buckingham Palace to collect the medal they awarded for making the
attempt.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:31:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:31:44 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <3D4B24F2.20758.ED70D3@localhost>
Message-ID: <00b201c23a5c$554ff1a0$5d0bbd50@martinjd>

>
> > IE Units will NOT enter routine combat situations where they know
> > they will be massacred.
>
> I think it depends a lot on the chances of success and the value the
> soldier (or pilots, or whatevers) place on that success.

Yes, hence my use of the word "routine". Critical situations (or good
manipulation by morale experts) will be different.

>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <200208021928.LXQ00226@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Douglas E. Berry" says
>Doesn't stop the flow of volunteers.

Me! Me! Pick me!
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:33:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:33:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Meduim Navies
Message-ID: <200208021932.LXR00217@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Roseberry says
<snip cool stuff on small navies>
I've wanted to do something on that scale for a PBEM, with 
the players doing their TCS thing with some politics and with 
the GM resolving battles and doing a CNN-like news.

________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in traveller)
Message-ID: <200208021936.LXR00684@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"R. Michael Stephens" says
>Similar effects in Jack Chalker's "Forever War", very fast 
>STL, large time dialation effects, and IIRC hibernation.

Ahem.. Joe Haldeman...
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <200208021939.LXR00993@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"MJ Dougherty" says
>These are nice. I notice that they're not fighters.
>

I'll repeat myself.  Using the small fleet concept that 
Roseberry posted earlier, I would be interested in running a 
TL 12 PBEM.

Then we could find out through politics what other players 
(representing their governments) think of things like 
planetary bombardment, prisoner exchange, trade embargos, 
blockades, etc.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
References: <20020802062003.11635.24330.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <eimkkukp9lm8iv0tjm0iu5gvjaoi5j6oov@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <3D4ADFBF.8030303@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Jeff Zeitlin wrote:

> 
> I refuse to believe that they _want_ a city that is so badly mismanaged
> that Congress was ready to take away what autonomy they had.

Well, a large part of the problems in DC has been the fact that they 
have generally had 565 masters to please...

565 rather stingy masters, at that, who didn't live or work in the city 
that the DC authorites had to police...only their nannies, garbage men 
and maids lived *there*.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:52:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:52:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <8d.1bfa1383.2a7a4253@aol.com> <3.0.5.16.20020802094239.36dff48c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3D4AE2D3.9080101@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> Hell, as a sniper I was considered to be a highly-skilled soldier (not
> cannon-fodder) and was expected to do insane things that were extremely
> dangerous and most often fatal.  Snipers are rarely taken prisoner.  Enemy
> troops tend to kill them when they are caught.  Doesn't stop the flow of
> volunteers.

Except, of course, you knew, deep down, *you* were good enough to 
survive, and get away without being caught. It was the other guy, the 
one who made mistakes, and had bad luck, who got captured and killed, 
not you. You were *good* dammit, you were a Ranger! Hooah!

I think this is the crucial element we're overlooking in this debate.

At one point during WWII the survival rates of US aviator pilits was not 
*much* better than kamakazi's. The crucial element is that they believed 
that their survival was ultimately influenced by their actions and 
abilities and their omnipresent good luck.

This goes for all of the 'suicide' missions like U-boat crews, our own 
submarine crews, and aviators. It's not a coincidence that submariners 
are usually considered the most fanatically superstious of all armed 
forces personnel.

When it becomes clear that no matter *what* you do, you're going to die, 
attitudes change.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in traveller)
References: <200208021936.LXR00684@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D4AE3B5.9050704@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

The original story about the soldiers being woken up for combat sounds 
quite a bit like the movie 'Universal Soldier', which, iirc, was based 
on a P.K. Dick short story or novella.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:57:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:57:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <00ab01c23a5c$506fc660$5d0bbd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHKEOJIJAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

> Ship: Fred
> Class: Wombat
> Type: Meson Swarmer
> Architect: jml
> Tech Level: 15

These are nice. I notice that they're not fighters.

_______________________________________________

Nope, High end SDB's or low end monitors IMO
They were a possible take on that survival thingy.

jml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in traveller)
Message-ID: <F91b7ENl92BgHK61Aca000250e0@hotmail.com>

R. Michael Stephens <Robert.M.Stephens@vanderbilt.edu> wrote:
>Similar effects in Jack Chalker's "Forever War", very fast STL, large
>time dialation effects, and IIRC hibernation.

Similar, but I think Haldeman's _Forever War_ was more about
isolation from society than concentrated warfare experience.
A soldier in Haldeman's book might spend a year (subjective)
sitting in boredom, then a week fighting for his or her life.
The society he or she is fighting for might have had two hundred
years pass while the troopship was flying for a subjective year,
but at least the soldier had some down time.

With "freezer pop" soldiers, you might have people who wake
up, fight to the death for a week, then go back to sleep
until the next fight to the death crops up. No down time,
no ability to process what happened before it all starts
again.  Imagine the post-war condition of the average US
WW2 soldier if his entire tour of duty had lasted only
(a subjective) three months, but each and every (subjective)
day had as much violence as the Normandy landings?

The extreme version (from the sf story that might be _Soldier,
Ask Not_) would give these troopers social isolation problems
as well (they get woken up for a week or so every couple of
centuries), but even the lesser version you'd see in a Traveller
setting could be hard on human minds.

Forever War was a helluva book, btw.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Blowing holes in Japan (was " Re Patton")
References: <009d01c23a4f$d11f1de0$f42bf7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <3D4AE539.2070603@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Fred Ramen wrote:

 > A divided Japan
> would have made it almost impossible for the US to prosecute the war in
> Korea without the conflict spreading into a general US/Soviet war, for
> example.

Well, I don't think this is all that likely. Uncle Joe did NOT want a 
generalized US/Soviet war at the time of the Korean conflict, whetehr or 
not they held part of Japan, or else it would have happened.

As it was, Stalin refused Mao's and Jong's requests for materiel and 
men, including nuclear weapons, and the few Russians involved in the 
conflict were extremely circumspect, and confined mainly to some higher 
level advisers to the Chinese advisers and command, and as pilots, 
initially for the Mig-15 and Yak-17 (iirc) jet fighters, and then only 
until China had sufficient trained personell to fly 'em.

(and, not coincidentally, the Russians had a good understanding of their 
performance against American jet aircraft, as well...)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:05:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:05:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonabo Class Missile Frigate
Message-ID: <19e.64fcc68.2a7c3fb5@aol.com>

 >Ship: Bonabo
 >Class: Bonabo
 >Type: Missile Frigate
 >Architect: Alan Bradley
 >Tech Level: 15
 >
 >USP
 >         FM-A156892-000000-00009-0 MCr 1,196.140 1.5 KTons
 >Bat Bear                       1   Crew: 24
 >Bat                            1   TL: 15
 >
 >Cargo: 2.000 Fuel: 870.000 EP: 120.000 Agility: 6 Shipboard Security Detail:
 >2
 >Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

No armor?  No low berths?  No medical facilities?  No lifeboat?  No cargo 
supplies?  Well, at least it seems to have extra crewmen -- if you can get 
anyone to sign up.  If I were the referee I'd give this boat an endurance of 
1 - 2 months max.

 >In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships.

Yes, in sufficient numbers, and if the capital ships are poorly designed and 
employed.  But credit for credit you'll never get the numbers sufficient to 
do so.  Meanwhile with no armor these ships will be dropping like flies.  I 
think what you have here is not a line-of-battle ship, but a raider that 
needs work.  Give it some more endurance and it would do fine in that roll.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:14:02 2002
Subject: JTAS Contest (was: Re: [TML] warship optimization in traveller)
References: <20020802182504.13132.61928.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D4AE7C4.85DCBD6E@ameritech.net>

> Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 20:07:38 +0300
> From: john.groth@us.army.mil

<snip>

> Just out of curiosity, which one did you vote for? 

The 300-ton Maraaki-class Medical Ship. I liked the mission description
for this ship. Plus it's a nice PC sized ship.

> I was caught up in
> the actual deployment from Ft. Carson to Sinai, so I didn't submit a
> vote, but I probably would have voted for _Sanctuary_, the 300,000 
> dton converted Fleet Support Tanker [*].

I considered this but decided it was too big a ship for most situations. 

<snip>

> [*] Actually, I liked my own design best, but I've always viewed 
> voting for your own ship in such a contest as gauche.

Well same here. Though in this instatnce I really didn't think my ship
was the best in the running. Maybe I need to send my ego in for
refurbishing. :)

> 
> [**] For those who would like to participate, just go to the
> Starship/Vehicle Design discussion board on JTAS.  Not a subscriber?
> Why not?  It's only $15 US per two years for biweekly issues and access
> to archives, discussion boards and Brubek's chat room.  [And if you
> mention that aurictech referred you, I get a free month added to _my_
> subscription! ;-)]

Ignore this blatant self promotion and tell them davidshayne sent you.

:)
 
> http://jtas.sjgames.com/subscribe/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
 traveller)
In-Reply-To: <3D4AC860.5000504@vanderbilt.edu>
References: <F244ozCsVINDnKgXhLy00004901@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020802151624.00a90e00@minn.net>

"R. Michael Stephens" <Robert.M.Stephens@vanderbilt.edu> wrote:
>Similar effects in Jack Chalker's "Forever War", very fast STL, large 
>time dialation effects, and IIRC hibernation.

>> I remember a sci-fi tale of soldiers such as this, warriors
>> who would sleep for ages and only wake for war, while society
>> changed around them into unrecognizability...it wasn't
>> Gordon R. Dickson's _Soldier, Ask Not_, was it?
>> 
>> Walt Smith
>> Firelock on DALNet

The Forever War by Joe Haldeman. He was a grunt in Vietnam.

Read it in high school.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <20020802101235.98a3bb14da2249719a2c69a0b3078a17.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <3D4B91FA.12531.2C8155@localhost>

On 2 Aug 2002 at 10:14, Cheng Tseng wrote:

> Were they?  I do not remember any FAA torpedo squadrons involved, and the
> only torpedo squadron the RAF's Coastal Command had in England (The rest
> were in the Med.) had Beauforts, if I remember correctly.

I'm fairly sure they were (ie my source is miles away and I can't 
check). They were mentioned in a history of the Beauforts' WWII 
experiences as being there.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:20:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:20:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <20020802102615.30aca70d97e74ef18326726c229541ca.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <3D4B91FA.13395.2C819C@localhost>

On 2 Aug 2002 at 10:28, Cheng Tseng wrote:

> Well, it would have greatly improved the British chances of attacking the
> German ships if it did not take until just before the Germans were passing
> the Straits of Dover to even know they were at sea.  At least then, the
> Brits could have had time to assemble an all-out attack instead of send the
> aircrafts in dribbles and drabs which allowed the Luftwaffe to kill them.
> One of Adolf Galland's finer moments, providing air cover for the cruisers.

Yep. It also helped that somewhere in the British communications chain 
they transformed from 30,000 ton battlecruisers at 30 knots to 20,000 
ton merchants at 20 knots, so the British pilots were all firing their 
torpedos with their sights set incorrectly.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:21:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:21:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMENMIJAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
References: <76.201d4ff6.2a7b1285@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B91FA.31831.2C81F6@localhost>

On 2 Aug 2002 at 9:23, John-Martin wrote:

> A config 7, dispersed structure, ship has the
> highest to hit target of any configuration.
> A high agility, high computer size A or less
> meson escort is the hardest to hit of any ship.
> Other weapons find it hard to hit with as well.
> Additionally, is features the lowest hull cost.
> 
> A Wombat swarmers is an anti capital ship weapon.
> They are realitively inexpensive, has low crew
> sizes, and back up computers, bridges and low berths to
> increase their staying power.
> 
> In game terms a Wombat has a size mod of -1, and agility
> of 6 and a computer 9 giving it a to hit mod of
> -14 + computer attacking ship (renderinging it unhittable
> by anything other then a Meson M meson spinal mountor
> better which a T hits on an  10, 11 or 12 , Q-s hit on
> 11 or 12 and the others only hit on a 12 assuming
> a type 9 computer with an allotment of two extra PP levels
> to soak up PP hits.  they have a back up level 9 computer
> and 30 low berths -- allowing for 3 levels of crew hits.
> In Trilion Credit Squadron senerios, they only soak
> up one pilot and work on the factor 9 meson gun column.
> 
> 1	10
> 2	9
> 3	7
> 4	4
> 5	3
> 6	6
> 7	12
> 8	2
> 9	11
> 
> before any modifactions. Most Capital ships are at least size B
> so it is at worst a +1 in any exchange of fire
> 
> Interesingly, with the backups and lack of Armour, she has
> weapon hits to fear the most -- she has no screens and jump
> drives, so spinal weapons are at a disadvantage against it --
> only 10 and 12 on pentrating hits are  mission kills on the
> radiation table while 8 and 11 are MKs on the Surface explosion
> table.  the +6 DM that sub 9 bay/batteries have acually hurt
> her more.  PA that can hurt it, at best -- assuming a 9 computer --
> need a 10 or better to hit while missiles need a seven
> at best

I'm not sure I follow this bit, and I think some of your numbers are a 
little off, too. How's it stack up to cruisers with (relatively) light 
spinal PAWS?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:23:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:23:12 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <177.c580aa7.2a7c4378@aol.com>

 >>> I bet that fighting hole full of cold rainwater I stepped
 >>> into near LZ Aardvark was put there by Doug.  Thanks, Doug.
 >
 >Only the best for my friends!  And he, I walked into my fair share of those.

My reserve unit was practicing out at an old guard facility.  I was running 
hard across a field with waist-high brush towards a large bush.  I made it to 
the bush and hurtled straight into an old fighting hole.  I slammed into the 
far side, bounced back against the near side, and wound up in a twisted 
tangle six feet down.  I never even saw the hole until I was at the bottom.

When I finally recovered and climbed out, everyone else had gone back to camp 
for dinner.  That was kind of disappointing.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Baboon Class Missile Frigate CREWS
Message-ID: <1ba.43235ef.2a7c49b7@aol.com>

 >>The Baboon Class Missile Frigate is a lightly equipped patrol/escort 
vehicle.
 >>
 >>In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships.
 >
 >  <QUIBBLE> Not really? By TL E or F dampers make these ships just
 >too inefficient, IIRC?

They are too inefficient to kill, yes.  But they can still be a royal pain in 
the ass.  In the end though capital ships can kill them but they can't kill 
capital ships.  Eventually they run out of missiles.

I think the big problem with this kind of boat is not their inefficiency, but 
their crews.  It would be hard enough to get competent and willing captains, 
pilots, and engineers with the necessary decades of experience for a few 
heavily armed and armored capital ships that have adequate living space and 
support cargo.  Finding thousands of deployable captains, pilots, and 
engineers who would be willing to live and fight in barely-adequate 
Volkswagens (as it were) would be a major problem.  I think this difficulty 
should be reflected in their skill levels.  I know TCS specifically and 
categorically states otherwise, but I think this issue is just too big and 
reasonable to so breezily ignore it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fred Ramen)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Blowing holes in Japan (was " Re Patton")
Message-ID: <00d901c23a66$05486160$4a2bf7a5@pctframen>

I wrote:

 > A divided Japan
> would have made it almost impossible for the US to prosecute the war in
> Korea without the conflict spreading into a general US/Soviet war, for
> example.

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

"Well, I don't think this is all that likely. Uncle Joe did NOT want a
generalized US/Soviet war at the time of the Korean conflict, whetehr or
not they held part of Japan, or else it would have happened. <snip>"

Oh, I agree that the Stalin didn't want to expand the conflict any more than
Truman did. My point was merely that it would have been extremely unlikely
for the Soviets to allow a divided Japan (as posited in Mr. Whipsnade's
original post) to be used as a staging area for American intervention in
Korea (or Vietnam, for that matter).

Of course, I may be overstating the importance of Japan to US Pacific
security, and am quite open to being corrected in this regard.

Fred Ramen


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 15:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 14:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <112.1523c9f7.2a7c50e1@aol.com>

 >In the active service I've know many fine female sailors who were competent
 >technicians and fine seaman. And more than a few who were more competent
 >leaders than many of the critics who bemoaned the posting of woman to ships.

I've seen a handful.  Offsetting this, I've seen companies where every single 
corporal  and several sergeants get busted down for sex with the female 
privates.  I've seen active duty females refuse orders to perform physical 
tasks (like dumping trash cans) and tell sergeants to their face to "get a 
male to do it".  I've seen females who cannot, and I mean cannot, pass their 
limited physical fitness tests, who can't do  even seven pushups, but who 
still remain in units.  I've seen females who cannot climb the ladder from 
the shaft alley to the second deck and who have to be helped.  I've seen 
females finish their expensive training and then promptly be discharged 
because they're pregnant.

Whatever benefits they bring I think are outweighed by the negatives.  I'd 
dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their 
traditional roles of nurse and clerk.  If the US military is so hard-up for 
warm bodies that it really needs females, then I say reinstitute the WACS and 
WAVES and whatever else, with their own standards and their own chain of 
command, and put them in charge of stateside facilities like hospitals and 
supply depots and personnel offices so men are freed up for more forward 
duties.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 15:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Fri Aug  2 14:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <112.1523c9f7.2a7c50e1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208021425040.5733-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 2 Aug 2002 Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> Whatever benefits they bring I think are outweighed by the negatives.  I'd 
> dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their 
> traditional roles of nurse and clerk.  If the US military is so hard-up for 
> warm bodies that it really needs females, then I say reinstitute the WACS and 
> WAVES and whatever else, with their own standards and their own chain of 
> command, and put them in charge of stateside facilities like hospitals and 
> supply depots and personnel offices so men are freed up for more forward 
> duties.

I've been trying to decide whether or not to killfile you for a while--
thanks for helping me out.
**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 15:26:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Fri Aug  2 14:26:43 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <3D4B05EA.8754.5198B91@localhost>
Message-ID: <000001c23a6b$4f795aa0$6501a8c0@Darla>

> However in a fighter you probably are
> all alone, the nearest friendly is tens of kilometers away and there's
> nobody to see if you stand as a "hero" or run as a "coward".
> 
> Personally I don't think the massed fighter approach works over the
long
> term due to the cost in highly trained crew. However, I can well see
it
> being
> not that uncommon, especially when one side feels desperate.
> 

I can't agree that the isolation of the cockpit would do that.  I've
worked with a lot of RL fighter pilots, both Air Force and Navy, and for
the most part they would rather die than look bad, ESPECIALLY in front
of the rest of the squadron.

TWB


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 15:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Fri Aug  2 14:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CF9@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <000001c23a6d$ab25c260$6501a8c0@Darla>

> if the tables were turned. I have no doubt the Axis powers, had they
won,
> would have gone on a rampage of looting, rape, genocide, and
destruction
> that would boggle the mind, and luckily remains in the realm of
> science-fiction.

In fact, the Axis powers DID go on a rampage of looting, rape, genocide
and destruction.  That is why they had to be stopped.

TWB


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 15:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug  2 14:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CF9@USCHM203>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CF9@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <m3fzxxj5gp.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> writes:
> 
> Personally, I find it hard to shed many tears for Hiroshima,
> Nagasaki, or Dresden.

I dunno--the firebombing of Dresden is IMHO one of the worst war
crimes committed by the US.  Esp. the bit about destroying emergency
vehicles...

That no-one was ever strung up for it is a travesty.  We're supposed
to be better than that.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The betterment of fools, Goethe tells us, is the appropriate business of
other fools.  The Underground Grammarian does not seek to educate
anyone.  We intend rather to ridicule, humiliate, and infuriate those
who abuse our language not so that they will do better but so that they
will stop using language entirely or at least go away.
                         --The Underground Grammarian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 15:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dave Strebe)
Date: Fri Aug  2 14:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208021425040.5733-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <02Aug2.151432pdt.119054@gw.city.vancouver.bc.ca>

> On Fri, 2 Aug 2002 Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

<SNIP>

> I've been trying to decide whether or not to killfile you for a while--
> thanks for helping me out.

 Moi aussi.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 15:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug  2 14:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <00aa01c23a5c$4f293ca0$5d0bbd50@martinjd>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
 <m3ofclg93m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
 <004301c23a04$8cdeff60$0112bd50@martinjd>
 <m3eldhkv8o.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
 <00aa01c23a5c$4f293ca0$5d0bbd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <m3bs8lj5c2.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> writes:
>
> > > There are simulator drawbacks--`simulator sickness--which is
> > > kind of psychosomatic motion sickness, can begin to manifest
> > > itself on real missions (or cause them to not do certain things
> > > because they expect sim sickness).
> >
> > Again, a sufficiently advanced computer (I'm talking about Moore's
> > law for 2,000 years: capacity increasing by 1.5 every 1.5 years
> > for 2,000 years is a 6.1425e234 increase; by 2 every 2 years is a
> > 1.0715e301 increase) can model sufficiently well that one will
> > experience bad effects exactly as in real life...
> 
> Okay, if you can manage to simulate g stress and all the other stuff
> too, then my comment above doesn't apply.  If not, it does. You need
> more than an amazing computer for this.  Which translates to again,
> I don't believe in perfect simulators.'

Well, if you can damp inertia and can create artificial gravity, I'm
pretty certain that you can fake high-g effects (or rather, create
them).  I don't think that the physics would necessarily be all that
difficult; trivial, probably, for a society which has those things.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
When the water of a place is bad it is safest to drink none that has not
been filtered through either the berry of a grape, or else a tub of malt.
These are the most reliable filters yet invented.        --Samuel Butler

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <m3ofclg93m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <000001c23a70$28580340$6501a8c0@Darla>

> 
> You really think that a computer can be powerful enough to simulate
> all that and yet not have safeguards to prevent death?  I would
> imagine that it'd be just like a modern simulator: screw up and you
> get the `shatter screen.'
> 
> Although it could also be used to give you a nasty shock or something
> every time you screw up...
> 

Not necessarily.  I was working on an F-15 trainer a few years ago and
stepped out of the seat to reach a terminal while leaving the aircraft
"in flight".  It took a bit longer that I thought it would, and the
uncontrolled simulated jet ended up impacting the "earth" at Mach
1.something.  

The control loader on the stick modeled stick forces due to the
accelerations of the aircraft, so in response to the massive g-loading
of the crash, drove the stick violently aft.  It is my good fortune that
I was not in the way of the stick when it drove aft, since it hit the
stops hard enough to snap a stainless steel cable in the control loader.


Needless to say, we added some safety limits in this area before the
trainer got delivered.

Tom Barnes


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <3D4B91FA.31831.2C81F6@localhost>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHGEPBIJAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

I'm not sure I follow this bit, and I think some of your numbers are a 
little off, too. How's it stack up to cruisers with (relatively) light 
spinal PAWS?

-- 
>>>>>>>>>>>>
One would need numbers but add 7 (agility 6 + 1 [size modifier for 
size A]) plus the difference in computer rating and the PAW to hit 
number to arrive at the number you have to roll higher then to hit.  

At best you hit one Wombat a bit worse then half the time, at worst you 
need a ten or better.  

Anyway, once you hit, you only get the first twelve hit types to play
with being a spinal mount. The Wombat carries 3 crew replacements, has
an extra computer and bridge.  It lacks a jump drive and screens 
and keeps its agility for 2 PP factor losses.  Fuel tank shattered and
weapons hits are your only mission kills.  Power Plant hit beyond 2
still leave the Wombat functional, it looses agility.  It takes 8 PP hits
to render the Meson gun un-operational

Fire the other way depends on the other ship,  Knock off nine for the 
computer.    Target numbers and damage table modifier depend on the target.

Please recall, this is not an uber weapon, it is a niche ship.  However it
is a surprisingly survivable one considering it costs about as much as the
main gun of a capital ship and displaces 1000 tons.  As SDB's these would
be extremely effective and carried as a rider, I see this as a very useful
mason artillery support platform or em mass to bulldog battlewagons.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
Message-ID: <151.11d787f6.2a7c5dcb@aol.com>

 > >Also, does a crippled fighter neccessarily mean dead crewman?
 >
 > using ct tables, a factor 9 salvo against a 90 ton fighter results in 9
 > critical hits, of which a roll of 2 or 10 ( 1/36 + 3/36 ) represent 
immediate
 > crew death (we'll ignore the presence or absence of rescue vessels, the
 > consequences to a pilot of loss of power in his ship, etc).  this results 
in
 > a ( 1 - ( 32 / 36 ) ^ 9 ) or a 65.4% chance of crew death upon being hit.  
I
 > don't know what typical fighter-pilot survival rates are, but I'll bet 
that's
 > comparable to those of japanese zero's in ww2.

 >The pilot casualty rates you quote above are much too high, IMHO.  They are 
only
 >true if the attacker is using TL15 100-ton meson gun bays or if the fighter 
is
 >unarmored.

In CT HG TL15 100-ton meson guns cannot hit fighters except at short range, 
and then only on 12+.  I wasn't considering meson guns, they're worthless 
against fighters.

A 90-ton CT HG TL15 fighter will have militarily-insignifcant armor.  90 
tons, -18 tons bridge, -15.3 tons maneuver 6, -1 PMS turret, -13 model 9 
computer, -18.4 power plant, -18.4 power plant fuel, -2 crew cabin, -1 
missile magazine, leaves 2.9.  Assuming no low berths, cargo, air lock, or 
other housekeeping / survival aids for the crew then 2.9 tons will support 
armor 2, which will remove the effects of one automatic critical hit.  Final 
crew death rate from automatic critical hits will be ( 1 - ( 32/36 ) ^ 8 ) 
for a total of 61.0%.  This does not count the normal damage from the hit, 
3/36 of which will be interior explosions or critical hits.  You can do the 
math for those.

IMTU computers are a normal part of bridge equipment, and do not consume 
space or energy, so my fighters _do_ have armor 15.  But no-one else seems to 
do this.

 >Fighters IMTU carry maximum armor.  This would reduce the non-meson crits 
 >listed above from 9 to 2, with a corresponding increase in crew survival.

Yes, it does -- but then you're not using CT HG, which is what I was talking 
about.  Or, if you are, then the fighters will either have ineffective 
computers or be severely slow, either of which will leave them vulnerable to 
rapid incapacitation.

 >I agree that a sub-100dT fighter cannot carry a weapon which can hurt a TL15
 >capital ship, mostly because of the difference in computer size.  This is 
why the
 >"fighters" in the smoke test were actually 1000dT boats with factor-9 
missile
 >bays.

Your fighters were 1000 tons?!!

I think we need standardization of terms.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
Message-ID: <a4.29dd5f76.2a7c5f34@aol.com>

 >>> including not commenting on how a
 >>> Washington police officer can be hired with felony convictions on his/her
 >>> record, provided that none were more recent than ten years ago at the 
time
 >>> of application.
 >> 
 >> Well, to be fair, if they didn't follow this hiring policy then could they
 >> find anyone to hire?
 >
 >But they couldn't carry a gun.  They'd be a prohibited person under Federal
 >law, unless they had filed for and received a 'relief from disability' from
 >the ATF.  And congress has stopped funding this program, so none are being
 >done.

That's a problem only if you intend to enforce the law.  Since it's not a 
problem for them then the conclusion to be drawn is obvious.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <d1.1c449e1a.2a7c6094@aol.com>

 >  As an aside, why are you not discussing the frigates that you 
 >had posited as the sole class of warship in the post to which I
 >was responding?

Because the question dealt specifically with capital ship viability.  It was 
late, I just latched onto fighters and did the math.  You can do the same 
math for the frigates if you like.  Capital ships will do better against the 
frigates, but they'll still lose fairly badly.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] max hull size
Message-ID: <ff.1ba47012.2a7c6111@aol.com>

 >Again, I'm assuming CT.  Let's see .... at tech 12, max hull size is 
199,999 
 
   <1 MT (USP X) per HG2, pps. 26 & 28.

Sorry -- CT HG.  I don't know what HG2 does.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <20020802224421.60004.qmail@web20414.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>

>"John T. Kwon" wrote:
>
>>I think I see a pattern here...
>>
>>long time Traveller player...
>>joins the military (some of us wished we did)...

[deletion]

>After "mustering out", I spent alot of time doing the usual PC
thing,
>hanging around in pubs looking for something exciting to do.
>
>SPOILER ALERT
[deletion]
>Unfortunately, though I met many fascinating (and in some cases 
>possibly alien) characters, I was never asked to rescue a senator
>from an Imperial prison hulk, reunite a Chirper with his siblings, 

Well, I never joined the military, but I did work for the Post Office
one summer, and I have on many occasions in my career as a lawyer
travelled with a team of variously normal, neurotic, and psychotic
professionals to exotic, distant cities (like Denver and Minneapolis)
to review documents in conference rooms, or to interrogate witnesses
in conference rooms.  It's been an exciting life.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net><m3ofclg93m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org><004301c23a04$8cdeff60$0112bd50@martinjd><m3eldhkv8o.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org><00aa01c23a5c$4f293ca0$5d0bbd50@martinjd> <m3bs8lj5c2.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <012601c23a78$2c1d4f00$5d0bbd50@martinjd>

>
> Well, if you can damp inertia and can create artificial gravity, I'm
> pretty certain that you can fake high-g effects (or rather, create
> them).  I don't think that the physics would necessarily be all that
> difficult; trivial, probably, for a society which has those things.
>

If you can do these things, then simulator problems I've outlined are
greatly diminished (most of them). I don't imagine this sort of thing is
available for $35 in a playstation game, though.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208021425040.5733-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <013101c23a78$5f05d720$5d0bbd50@martinjd>

>
> > Whatever benefits they bring I think are outweighed by the negatives.
I'd
> > dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their
> > traditional roles of nurse and clerk.  If the US military is so hard-up
for
> > warm bodies that it really needs females, then I say reinstitute the
WACS and
> > WAVES and whatever else, with their own standards and their own chain of
> > command, and put them in charge of stateside facilities like hospitals
and
> > supply depots and personnel offices so men are freed up for more forward
> > duties.


Such sweeping prejudice. I am impressed.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <112.1523c9f7.2a7c50e1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <014a01c23a78$a159d220$5d0bbd50@martinjd>

>
> I've seen a handful.  Offsetting this, I've seen companies where every
single
> corporal  and several sergeants get busted down for sex with the female
> privates.  I've seen active duty females refuse orders to perform physical
> tasks (like dumping trash cans) and tell sergeants to their face to "get a
> male to do it".  I've seen females who cannot, and I mean cannot, pass
their
> limited physical fitness tests, who can't do  even seven pushups, but who
> still remain in units.  I've seen females who cannot climb the ladder from
> the shaft alley to the second deck and who have to be helped.  I've seen
> females finish their expensive training and then promptly be discharged
> because they're pregnant.

Yeah, and I've seen human beings who were skilled and competent and
determined and motivated and just plain better than me being kept down
because they were born female. You can't damn half the human race on a
generality.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in travell
Message-ID: <memo.561258@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <F244ozCsVINDnKgXhLy00004901@hotmail.com>
> >The US Army did studies in which they discovered that the
> >longest that a solider can stay in a combat zone is about
> >100 days.  After that, he falls apart.  So the Army began
> >rotating units to rest areas so they could recharge a little
> >and get roaring drunk and contract VD before going back
> >into the line.  It will be harder for the Imperium to do this,
> >but I think it would be a priority to establish some sort of
> >safe zone for the troops.
> 
> It's an old saw that military service is extended periods of
> boredom punctuated by short periods of stark terror.  Imagine
> if an army used sleeper ships to move their troops around...
> soldiers whose military service consisted of sleeping through
> the extended periods of boredom, and only being awake for the
> periods of stark terror.
> 
> That kind of setup might be cheap when it came to starship
> life support costs, but I imagine the impact on the soldiers'
> psyches would be extreme.
 
Many, many years ago I played in a Traveller game where a vicious little 
war had broken out in the sector we happened to be in. While the rest of 
the party thought about mercenary tickets or intelligence gathering, I 
went off and found an unused planet somewhere about half way between the 
warring factions and set up a really big R&R centre, the only rule was no 
weapons and the war got left outside. Place was generally swarming with 
troops from both sides, and I made a pile :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:55:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:55:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <memo.561259@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <02Aug2.151432pdt.119054@gw.city.vancouver.bc.ca>
> > On Fri, 2 Aug 2002 Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> 
> <SNIP>
> 
> > I've been trying to decide whether or not to killfile you for a 
> > while--
> > thanks for helping me out.
> 
>  Moi aussi.

I am laughing too hard to issue the requisite command.

Mexal.
former infantry sergeant of the female persuasion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <20020802225803.30867.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Flykiller@aol.com

>>The Germans, and particularly the Japanese were horribly
>>dehumanized.  We made our enemies into monsters so then it was OK 
>>to exterminate them.
>
>Seems to be part of the human condition.  Not only is the enemy an 
>inhuman monster and responsible for any and all evil, _we_ are pure
>as the wind-driven snow in any and all circumstances.  "It's Al
>Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"

This is indeed an old tradition.  The German propagandists in WW2
created the Untermensch to describe various Slavic and Jewish
enemies, and used horrific cartoons to depict them ("Das ist der
Untermensch:  Gott hilf uns von solche wie diesen!" I recall one
saying).  

Indeed, the Battle of Maldon, an English poem from about 900AD,
concerns a fight between Angles (maybe Saxons; I forget) and Vikings.
 The Angles are named and give brave and gallant speeches as they
die.  The Vikings are always called "the wolvish Viking" ("tha
wulflic wicinga"), and they always insult the Angles whom they are
killing.  ("Feelthy English whose mother was a hamster ..." sorry,
wrong piece of English literature.)

--Glenn


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 17:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 16:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Civility APOLOGY
Message-ID: <36.2b6babed.2a7c6bba@aol.com>

 >>     "Yes, basking in verbally-asserted superiority is indeed much more 
 >pleasant than risking actual defeat.  But of course indulging in this makes 
 >you a (description deleted by LEW)"
 > 
 > 
 >Sir,
 >
 >     This post was completely uncalled for, in very poor taste, and little 
 >more than flame bait.  Posting such a message was definitely beneath you.  
I 
 >cannot believe you would normally behave in such a manner.  Passions may be 
 >running high on both sides of this discussion, but that doesn't mean we 
need 
 >to lower ourselves and make personal attacks.
 >     All of us on the List have been guilty of such behavior in the past, 
 >myself especially, but we all also try to conduct ourselves in as civil a 
 >manner as possible.  Because we're human, sometimes we fail.  However, we 
 >all still try.
 >    Your opinions and views have kicked off quite an interesting thread 
 >here on the List.  I have found your responses to other threads interesting 
 >also.  However, posting a message such as the one in question will do 
little 
 >more than earn you a place in many members' kill files.  Your posts, 
 >observations, and opinions deserve a better fate than that.
 >     I look forward to your future posts on a variety of threads and feel 
 >certain that you will conduct yourself in a truly civil manner.
 >
 > 
 >     Sincerely,
 >     William R. Cameron, aka Larsen E. Whipsnade

How can I answer such courteousness?

I fully apologize to Walt Smith, and withdraw my statement without further 
comment.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 17:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 16:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Blowing holes in Japan (was " Re Patton")
References: <00d901c23a66$05486160$4a2bf7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <3D4B1239.5090805@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Fred Ramen wrote:

> Oh, I agree that the Stalin didn't want to expand the conflict any more than
> Truman did. My point was merely that it would have been extremely unlikely
> for the Soviets to allow a divided Japan (as posited in Mr. Whipsnade's
> original post) to be used as a staging area for American intervention in
> Korea (or Vietnam, for that matter).
> 
> Of course, I may be overstating the importance of Japan to US Pacific
> security, and am quite open to being corrected in this regard.

Actually, the main reason we used Japan as the staging area was because 
we were there and it was close.

Had we been denied the use of Japan, we'd have used the Phillipines instead.

Same thing goes for Vietnam.

Then again, had it come to a divided Japan a 'la Germany, the whole Cold 
War thing would have gone quite differently. Vietnam would probably not 
have happened in any way like it did.

(Also, do not forget that during the Korean War, Germany was divided, 
but not like it was later...the Berlin Wall didn't go up until the 60's, 
and we'd just shown Stalin we were willing to go toe-to-toe over Germany 
during the Berlin Airlift. )

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 17:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 16:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <200208022348.g72Nmuw05627@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
>Subject: RE: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
...
>A Wombat swarmers is an anti capital ship weapon.
...
>ARMAMENT
>1 100-ton Meson Bay (Factor-9)

  The 12+ to penetrate a USP one Meson Screen isn't a concern?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 17:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Fri Aug  2 16:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <20020802194954.28a957e7c9c445afb801cb79a22bb3ad.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>On 2 Aug 2002 at 10:28, Cheng Tseng wrote:
>
>> Well, it would have greatly improved the British chances of attacking the
>> German ships if it did not take until just before the Germans were passing
>> the Straits of Dover to even know they were at sea.  At least then, the
>> Brits could have had time to assemble an all-out attack instead of send the
>> aircrafts in dribbles and drabs which allowed the Luftwaffe to kill them.
>> One of Adolf Galland's finer moments, providing air cover for the cruisers.
>
>Yep. It also helped that somewhere in the British communications chain 
>they transformed from 30,000 ton battlecruisers at 30 knots to 20,000 
>ton merchants at 20 knots, so the British pilots were all firing their 
>torpedos with their sights set incorrectly.

Even today, I am still amazed just how lucky the Germans were.  Even with
all their planning, they still could not have predicted the good fortune
they actually got.

Running out of Brest before just about everybody on the British side
believing they would (Bertram Ramsey was apparently the only British
commanding officer who thought the S, G and PRINZ EUGEN would make the dash
so soon.).  Managing to do so at the time the submarine assigned to monitor
Brest was standing out to charge her batteries.  Evading all THREE maritime
search aircraft patrol lines either because the aircrafts had busted
equipment or extremely bad flying weather.  Having so few British torpedo
aircrafts facing them, and having that number cut down even more because the
mobile torpedor service and rearmament unit providing the torpedors got
bogged down in a snow storm.  The list is just mind-boggling.

Okay, I must be suffering from premature Alzheimer's.  There was Swordfishes
during the Dash.  Ouch, one entire flight completely wiped out, with no
survivors.  At least something like half the other flight crews manage to
escape with their lives.

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

 My Sale List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
 My Want List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: max hull size
Message-ID: <200208030007.g7307Bw08657@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Flykiller@aol.com
>Subject: [TML] max hull size
...
> >Again, I'm assuming CT.  Let's see .... at tech 12, max hull size is 
>199,999 
> 
>   <1 MT (USP X) per HG2, pps. 26 & 28.
>
>Sorry -- CT HG.  I don't know what HG2 does.

  OMG - someone _uses_ HG1?! I only got a copy by accident...
neat read, though.

  BTW, do the Reprints include both editions of HG?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Meduim Navies
Message-ID: <3D4B1F7E.736A3F94@mail.cswnet.com>

This may have gotten lost in my last post and the minor flame spat 
going on, so I'll throw it out again and see if anyone bites.

What would the Imperuim see as the maximum allowable size, maximum
allowable quantitative/qualitative weaponry, for a mercenary ship?

Presumabley they would frown on paws and meson guns, but would they
allow big bay weapons?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption (was: warship optimization)
References: <F176AUfKRfcjcMzfoV100024006@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B20D8.AB8EE248@pobox.com>


"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:

> From: Bill Hopper <whopper@pobox.com>
>
>      "I agree that a sub-100dT fighter cannot carry a weapon which can hurt
> a TL15 capital ship, mostly because of the difference in computer size.
> This is why the "fighters" in the smoke test were actually 1000dT boats with
> factor-9 missile bays."
>
> Mr. Hopper,
>
>      The fighter designs used in the smoke tests I was referring to were
> sub-100Ton types.  They were also run at TL12.  Here are the USPs:

I apologize for my confusion.  I must have confused a couple of threads.  I
remembered the missile boat discussion and mistakenly thought it was what you
referred to.

WKH


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <000001c23a6b$4f795aa0$6501a8c0@Darla>
Message-ID: <B9706F61.67837%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/2/02 2:26 PM, Thomas Barnes at twb3@charter.net wrote:

>> However in a fighter you probably are
> 
> I can't agree that the isolation of the cockpit would do that.  I've
> worked with a lot of RL fighter pilots, both Air Force and Navy, and for
> the most part they would rather die than look bad, ESPECIALLY in front
> of the rest of the squadron.

This goes back to what I was saying earlier about the importance of small
groups in the military.  People often do dangerous and risky things for no
other reason than to not look bad in front of their squad mates, or just not
let them down.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] max hull size
References: <ff.1ba47012.2a7c6111@aol.com>
Message-ID: <009d01c23a84$ad976730$7400a8c0@matt>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
>> Again, I'm assuming CT.  Let's see .... at tech 12, max hull size is
>> 199,999
>
>    <1 MT (USP X) per HG2, pps. 26 & 28.
>
> Sorry -- CT HG.  I don't know what HG2 does.

HG2 is CT Book 5: High Guard, 2nd edition.

It was published in 1980, replacing the 1st edition published in 1979. There
was a series of articles in JTAS at the time on updating your version from
1st to 2nd to save you buying a new copy. Obviously this passed you by.

The version in the CT Reprints is HG2.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <200208030033.LYB00224@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Glenn M. Goffin" says
>I have on many occasions in my career as a lawyer

Often, I have marvelled at how some of the more intelligent 
people I have met (successful intelligent people, that is) 
have a carefully selected lawyer and a carefully selected 
accountant.

Most Traveller parties need a full time lawyer - but how many 
have you seen with one? 
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <99.2a2d475a.2a779a93@aol.com> <3D4A0109.D48E52E6@pobox.com> <005801c23a04$ec770b20$0112bd50@martinjd> <006401c23a0f$3ca9da00$7400a8c0@matt> <003201c23a14$66243100$7d03bd50@martinjd> <00a601c23a14$be1ddbe0$7400a8c0@matt> <005901c23a1d$16700d60$7d03bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3D4B277E.4E21AE33@pobox.com>

Matt, Martin,
I agree with both points presented below.  I think fighters should be more
effective in a coordinated, massed attack than they are individually.  I also
agree that 'coordinated' is the key term.

My solution is to group fighters into a 'squadron' so that their weapons can be
combined into one battery. But to do so, the squadrom must have a controlling or
'master' fighter.  The squadron's combined attack is treated as if it is one
battery, and uses the rating of the computer in the controlling fighter with an
additional -1 modifier.

All fighters in a squadron have to be of the same type, with the same agility.
Damaged fighters drop out of the squadron and become individuals.

So a squadron of 10 fighters, each with a triple laser turret, and controlled by
a master fighter with a model 8 computer, would attack as a single code-9
battery fired by a model 7 computer.

If the master fighter is destroyed, the squadron disintegrates into 10
individual fighters.  If a fighter is damaged or destroyed, the battery's rating
is reduced appropriately.  Undamaged fighters can be re-integrated into
squadrons by spending a turn in the reserve with a new master.

Role-playing never came up in relation to this, but for role-playing purposes I
would have the master fighter making recommendations to the pilots of the
squadron, perhaps through a Heads Up Display.  The individual pilots could
disregard the recommendations if they were willing to accept the consequences.

WKH

MJ Dougherty wrote:

> > > Why do you want fighters to be more effective?
> >
> > So that they can have an outside possibility of damaging Capital ships at
> > high TL
>
> And again, why do you want this? Barring me swallowing some and suffering
> some strange kind of poisoning, no amount of flies can beat me in a straight
> fight. My feeling is that fightrers are good for screening and keeping
> merchies in line. Big ships are for killing big ships.
>
> > >
> > > I see the concept, though you'd have to simulate C3 breakdowns, loss
> > > of cohesion etc
> >
> > Sure, just as soon as we do the same for the escorting PD ships of the
> > defending Fleet...
>
> Indeed, though coordinaitng a useful fighter attack requires external comms.
> Escorts can operate on internal comms (hard to jam) and even independently,
> can be useful if the captains are smart. Uncoordinated fighters are just as
> big mess.
>
> >
> > HG is pretty abstract anyway, so this level of detail is unnecessary IMHO.
> > All I am doing is letting Fighters act like Turrets. If several turrets
> can
> > concentrate their fire to increase their effectiveness, why can't several
> > fighters?
>
> Becuase turrets are controlled with internal comms, hardwired through the
> ship, while ifghters have to talk externally and are subject to jamming or
> other problems. And becuase you don't get a battery of turrests scattering
> due to evasion and having to reform.
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <99.2a2d475a.2a779a93@aol.com> <3D4A0109.D48E52E6@pobox.com> <005801c23a04$ec770b20$0112bd50@martinjd> <006401c23a0f$3ca9da00$7400a8c0@matt> <003201c23a14$66243100$7d03bd50@martinjd> <00a601c23a14$be1ddbe0$7400a8c0@matt> <005901c23a1d$16700d60$7d03bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3D4B2746.90DDF4D1@pobox.com>

Matt, Martin,
I agree with both points presented below.  I think fighters should be more
effective in a coordinated, massed attack than they are individually.  I also
agree that 'coordinated' is the key term.

My solution is to group fighters into a 'squadron' so that their weapons can be
combined into one battery. But to do so, the squadrom must have a controlling or
'master' fighter.  The squadron's combined attack is treated as if it is one
battery, and uses the rating of the computer in the controlling fighter with an
additional -1 modifier.

All fighters in a squadron have to be of the same type, with the same agility.
Damaged fighters drop out of the squadron and become individuals.

So a squadron of 10 fighters, each with a triple laser turret, and controlled by
a master fighter with a model 8 computer, would attack as a single code-9
battery fired by a model 7 computer.

If the master fighter is destroyed, the squadron disintegrates into 10
individual fighters.  If a fighter is damaged or destroyed, the battery's rating
is reduced appropriately.  Undamaged fighters can be re-integrated into
squadrons by spending a turn in the reserve with a new master.

Role-playing never came up in relation to this, but for role-playing purposes I
would have the master fighter making recommendations to the pilots of the
squadron, perhaps through a Heads Up Display.  The individual pilots could
disregard the recommendations if they were willing to accept the consequences.

WKH

MJ Dougherty wrote:

> > > Why do you want fighters to be more effective?
> >
> > So that they can have an outside possibility of damaging Capital ships at
> > high TL
>
> And again, why do you want this? Barring me swallowing some and suffering
> some strange kind of poisoning, no amount of flies can beat me in a straight
> fight. My feeling is that fightrers are good for screening and keeping
> merchies in line. Big ships are for killing big ships.
>
> > >
> > > I see the concept, though you'd have to simulate C3 breakdowns, loss
> > > of cohesion etc
> >
> > Sure, just as soon as we do the same for the escorting PD ships of the
> > defending Fleet...
>
> Indeed, though coordinaitng a useful fighter attack requires external comms.
> Escorts can operate on internal comms (hard to jam) and even independently,
> can be useful if the captains are smart. Uncoordinated fighters are just as
> big mess.
>
> >
> > HG is pretty abstract anyway, so this level of detail is unnecessary IMHO.
> > All I am doing is letting Fighters act like Turrets. If several turrets
> can
> > concentrate their fire to increase their effectiveness, why can't several
> > fighters?
>
> Becuase turrets are controlled with internal comms, hardwired through the
> ship, while ifghters have to talk externally and are subject to jamming or
> other problems. And becuase you don't get a battery of turrests scattering
> due to evasion and having to reform.
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: troll optimization on the TML
Message-ID: <200208030048.LYB01066@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mexal says
>I am laughing too hard to issue the requisite command.
>
>Mexal.
>former infantry sergeant of the female persuasion.

Mex, you need to have Fly run around the parade ground until 
you get tired...
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:50:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:50:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re: max hull size
Message-ID: <200208030049.LYB01145@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Steven Hudson asks
>  BTW, do the Reprints include both editions of HG?

Nope. The reprints have HG2 (which was, in its time, issued 
very briefly).
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:53:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:53:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <014a01c23a78$a159d220$5d0bbd50@martinjd>
References: <112.1523c9f7.2a7c50e1@aol.com>
 <014a01c23a78$a159d220$5d0bbd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <m3znw4epbc.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> writes:
> 
> Yeah, and I've seen human beings who were skilled and competent and
> determined and motivated and just plain better than me being kept
> down because they were born female.  You can't damn half the human
> race on a generality.

And I daresay that if we have women serving in full combat capacity
under the regimes of either seperate standards (i.e. where they must
not meet the same standards as men) or reduced standards (e.g. I
understand that two-man stretcher teams are now four or more), we will
see plenty of human beings who die miserably because their comrades
are not up to the task.

And I hardly think that shielding from death and destruction is
`damning.'  Rather a nice thing to do, as a matter of fact.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
There has grown in the minds of certain groups in this country the
idea that just because a man or corporation has made a profit out of
the public for a number of years, the government and the courts are
charged with guaranteeing such profit in the future, even in the face
of changing circumstances and contrary to public interest.  This
strange doctrine is supported by neither statue or common law.  Neither
corporations or individuals have the right to come into court and ask
that the clock of history be stopped, or turned back.
                  --Robert Heinlein, Life Line, 1939

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Meduim Navies
Message-ID: <200208030055.LYB01410@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Roseberry says
>What would the Imperuim see as the maximum allowable size, 
>maximum allowable quantitative/qualitative weaponry, for a 
>mercenary ship?
>

I believe that it should not be so much ship size, as a 
merchant could very well be a 100,000 ton ship.

As for the quantity of weaponry, that should be dealt with in 
combination with the quality.  I think that the limitation 
should be "is is a weapon of mass destruction?"

Along those lines, I think that most fusion weapons should be 
OK, since they are short range. You would have to be in range 
of planetary defenses to use them.  

PAWS of any size should be OK.  They do not penetrate 
atmospheres, and are not wide area effects weapons.

Meson guns - probably a no no in any size or quantity.

No nuclear warheads.

I would think that lasers would have to be of a wavelength 
that is guaranteed to be absorbed by atmosphere.  There are 
some tunable deuterium flouride lasers today that experience 
close to zero loss over their operational range in 
atmosphere.  These could be effective weapons of 
assassination - something I wouldn't want mercenaries to have.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 19:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Barnett-Lewis)
Date: Fri Aug  2 18:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <20020802231503.19852.60096.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B3637.35538EB8@mailbag.com>

Flykiller@aol.com said:
> Whatever benefits they bring I think are outweighed by the negatives.  I'd
> dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their
> traditional roles of nurse and clerk.  If the US military is so hard-up for
> warm bodies that it really needs females, then I say reinstitute the WACS and
> WAVES and whatever else, with their own standards and their own chain of
> command, and put them in charge of stateside facilities like hospitals and
> supply depots and personnel offices so men are freed up for more forward
> duties.
>

Pity. I had thought not to killfile you. Now I know better. 

Not quite Clint, yet even Clint had some intellegent moments.

For the record, as a male US Army NCO, I had far fewer problems with
female soldiers than with certain of my own physical gender.

William
Ex-E5 USA
19E, 19D, 11B, 96B
-- 
You better watch out   What you wish for;
It better be worth it  So much to die for.
		       Courtney Love

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 20:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 19:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <m3znw4epbc.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <B97089CA.67857%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/2/02 5:52 PM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> And I daresay that if we have women serving in full combat capacity
> under the regimes of either seperate standards (i.e. where they must
> not meet the same standards as men) or reduced standards (e.g. I
> understand that two-man stretcher teams are now four or more), we will
> see plenty of human beings who die miserably because their comrades
> are not up to the task.
> 
> And I hardly think that shielding from death and destruction is
> `damning.'  Rather a nice thing to do, as a matter of fact.

But this is the TML, and one supposes that in the 57th century, the measure
of a sophont's fitness for a particular duty is tied to their ability to
perform it.  One may assume that the Imperium establishes baseline
requirements for, say an MOS, and holds to those standards regardless of
race or gender.  This may result in a higher proportion of males in a
particular MOS, perhaps females in another.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 20:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  2 19:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <200208021317.LXD04141@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208021317.LXD04141@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020803121831.A14679@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> A large system like this would have to maintain a considerable
> number of ships in order to defend these assets,

Oh, I agree entirely.  The post upon which I was commenting used the
Battle of the Atlantic as an example of how commerce raiders might
cripple your economy.  I was just pointing out that systems in
Traveller are hundreds of times less dependent upon external trade
than England was.

In-system commerce raiding in Traveller is a different matter
entirely.  The ability of a small enemy force to jump in nearly
anywhere, do some damage and pop out again is extremely difficult to
defend against.  However, the defending ships do not need jump drives
or jump fuel, which makes them significantly cheaper and hence able to
pack a lot more punch for a given size/cost.  Important planets have
their supplies locally produced, which greatly simplifies logistics.



> and protect shipping between these points.  Convoys may be forced to
> use jump ships to do intrasystem jumps to avoid raiders,

Not likely, I would think.  That would cripple your economy worse than
losing 70% of your ships.  You'd be better off escorting them in
normal space, since non-jump ships are so much cheaper than jump
capable ones.

It should not be forgotten that any information the raiders have must
always be at least two weeks out of date by the time they strike.


> and ships inbound/outbound from the system would have to jump at the
> 100D limit without fail after being escorted the entire distance to
> and from the port.

No.  The raider ships aren't going to strike inside the 100D limit of
any meaningful system.

1) If they try, the planetary defences *will* make mincemeat of them
in short order.

2) It is much riskier for them to hit the 'jump' button if they meet
something nastier than them.  And they will, see (1).

3) Their information is two weeks out of date.  Their arrival time is
uncertain to at least a few hours.  They have to strike when a target
is at least half-way out, in the right direction, but hasn't reached
the limit yet.  That's a pretty narrow window, and even then requires
that no sizable armed vessels be nearby.


> In essence, laying siege to such a system might first mean whittling
> down the system defense boats and local fighters with fighter raids
> and light commerce raiders.  You might, after a time, be left only
> with your larger monitors, port defenses, and planetary defense
> sites.

I think you're ignoring the effect of your own losses of any non-jump
ships, and of local replenishment.  You've got a much longer supply
line.


> Ships as small as fighters may also lay mines on courses to sweep
> through traffic areas.

Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.
Another problem is that "high traffic areas" change with the relative
positions of the planets, and even then they will be *very* sparse.

A typical "trading lane" between planets would probably be a region a
few hundred million kilometres long with an average cross-section of a
few tens of trillions of square kilometres.  How many mines do you
propose to put in it?

I could imagine trying to mine a gas-giant; that might work since they
could be rendered undetectable by the atmosphere and yet be within
range of a intruding craft.  However, you would almost certainly be
hit by any pre-existing mines or other defences that were in place
while you were trying to lay them.


>  I would bet that for such an advanced system, while it might well
> be able to subsist on its own, it won't profit as much, especially
> if it engages in trade with a nearby world of similar stature.

Given that most major worlds have trade less than 0.2% of GWP, profits
will be virtually untouched.  Even the major neighbouring worlds of
Rhylanor and Porozlo have trade with each other that is only 1% of
their GWPs.  Look at the countries that have trade somewhere around
0.4% of your nation's GDP, and think about how strong an effect there
would be on your economy if you lost the ability to trade with one of
them in wartime.


> A continuous series of light hit and run raids would force 
> diversion of assets you would ordinarily use elsewhere,

You would also suffer pretty significant attrition yourself, and your
ships are both more expensive and harder to replace.


But overall, I agree that insystem raiding might be a viable tactic.
Keep the raids to areas outside a planet's 100D limit, though.  Target
commerce routes in interplanetary space.  Have excellent sensors to
spot commercial traffic at very long range.  Have high enough thrust
that you can reach targets before the system defences do.  Don't
bother with a stealthy ship -- your jump flash will be spotted anyway,
and you will be tracked automatically.  Use a large number of
alternate refuelling locations in the outer system or in deep space.

The biggest problem for the defender is the ability for the raider to
jump out whenever things are looking risky, without any possibility of
pursuit.  Q-ships are about the only reasonable counter I can think of
at the moment, and even then only to the extent that they can maul the
raiders in the two rounds it takes for them to discover their error
and jump out.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 20:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug  2 19:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <B97089CA.67857%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B97089CA.67857%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m3vg6sejwf.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> 
> But this is the TML, and one supposes that in the 57th century, the
> measure of a sophont's fitness for a particular duty is tied to
> their ability to perform it.  One may assume that the Imperium
> establishes baseline requirements for, say an MOS, and holds to
> those standards regardless of race or gender.  This may result in a
> higher proportion of males in a particular MOS, perhaps females in
> another.

Yep.  I've heard, for example, a theory that women might actually make
better fighter pilots, due to endurance or soemthing like that.
They're also supposed to be better in things like radar rooms.  But
I'm certainly no expert on gender differences.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
French General: `I knew it.  You Germans are only useful as garrison soldiers.'
German Colonel: `True.  In the last war, we garrisoned Paris, Nice, Lyon...'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 20:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Aug  2 19:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Baboon Class Missile Frigate CREWS
References: <20020802231503.19852.60096.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00f401c23a99$36e54e80$c15d8690@computer>

> From: Flykiller@aol.com
> They are too inefficient to kill, yes.  But they can still be a royal pain
> in the ass.  In the end though capital ships can kill them but they can't
> kill capital ships.  Eventually they run out of missiles.

Only in the real world, not in HG. : )

For what it's worth, these things are as cheap as chips. 1500 Missile Bays
fired at one or two capital ships will mission kill them pretty thoroughly.

They do actually die a little bit too fast, but they can make a nice mess of
the capital ships that destroy them.

> I think the big problem with this kind of boat is not their inefficiency,
> but their crews.

This is less of a problem if you consider that they are basically escorts.
Suicide runs against capital ships aren't _really_ what they spend most of
their time doing.

In any case the design is a bit of a first draft. I would tweak it a bit
before I used it in a real Traveller game. If you remember that these things
are frigates, not kamikazes, they are survivable enough.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 20:52:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Aug  2 19:52:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonabo Class Missile Frigate
References: <20020802202311.16203.94229.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00f501c23a99$377c5e60$c15d8690@computer>

> From: Flykiller@aol.com
> No armor?  No low berths?  No medical facilities?  No lifeboat?  No cargo
> supplies?  Well, at least it seems to have extra crewmen -- if you can get
> anyone to sign up.  If I were the referee I'd give this boat an endurance
> of 1 - 2 months max.

It's easy enough to pump up the endurance. Making the ship a bit bigger
should do the trick, although it gets more expensive.

>  >In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships.
> Yes, in sufficient numbers, and if the capital ships are poorly designed
> and employed.  But credit for credit you'll never get the numbers
> sufficient to do so.  Meanwhile with no armor these ships will be dropping
> like flies.

It's a Jump 5 design. That's a huge chunk of displacement gone, and it means
that credit for credit they can't fight capital ships. On the other hand,
they are reasonably hard to hit, and they are relatively cheap, so you can
buy lots and lots of them.

In a strategic game they could be quite useful - they are highly mobile, and
can be all over their opponent's space. And if a whole bunch of them run
into a small group of capital ships, then, yes, they can kill them!

Their survivability is less of a problem if you consider that they wouldn't
spend most of their time attacking capital ships.

Incidentally, it goes without saying that these things kill TL E- ships
quite nicely.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com







From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 20:53:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Aug  2 19:53:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <00f301c23a99$354ad860$c15d8690@computer>

> From: Flykiller@aol.com
> I've seen a handful.  Offsetting this, I've seen companies where every
<rant snipped>
> supply depots and personnel offices so men are freed up for more forward
> duties.

I'm impressed. Your talent for alienating people is quite remarkable.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 20:54:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Aug  2 19:54:22 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Baboon Class Missile Frigate
References: <20020802062003.11635.24330.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00f601c23a99$382d5ee0$c15d8690@computer>

> From: Steven Hudson
> >In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships.
>
>   <QUIBBLE> Not really? By TL E or F dampers make these ships just
> too inefficient, IIRC?

Dampers certainly don't help! They knock out about 5 out of every 6 shot
that hits (and penetrates active defences).

A trillion credits worth of these things will only mission kill one or two
capital ships per turn, and will suffer considerable losses in return.

They probably don't work out as a match for capital ships, but they are
close enough to be useful, I suspect.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <200208021928.LXQ00226@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020802195559.46a76b08@pop.mindspring.com>

At 03:28 PM 8/2/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>"Douglas E. Berry" says
>>Doesn't stop the flow of volunteers.
>
>Me! Me! Pick me!

1. Are you nuts?

2. Really nuts?

3. Can you lie perfectly still while an enemy soldier urinates on you?

4. As in #4, but it is a National Guardsman during a training mission.

5. Do you stand and remove your hat when you hear GnySgt Carlos Hathcock
mentioned?

6. Do you believe in your heart of hearts that there is no such thing as
friendly artillery?

7. When walking in open areas, do you automatically check sight lines and
exfil routes?

8. Do you refer to your wife as your spotter?

9. Do you/Did you make every target at 300 meters but miss the 50 meter ones?

10. We mean it, are you *really* nuts?

If you answered yes to all these questions, you might have what it takes.
Just send Cr 20 and 10 7.62mm shell casings to:

Sniping for Dummies
c/o ACQ Weapons
Box 26, Gridlore Complex
Lunion Up #3
Lunion/Lunion/Spinward Marches
-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Animals who are not penguins can only wish they were.
-Chicago reader, 10/15/82

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:03:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:03:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <112.1523c9f7.2a7c50e1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020802200157.46a789a6@pop.mindspring.com>

At 05:17 PM 8/2/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>Whatever benefits they bring I think are outweighed by the negatives.  I'd 
>dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their 
>traditional roles of nurse and clerk.

I knew many excellent female soldiers, who pulled their weight and then
some.  I also saw many male soldiers who whined and always seemed to be on
profile.

The 50s ended, my dear sir.  As long as they can do the job.  Oh, and an
NCO having sex with a solider in the same chain of command is a violation
of the UCMJ.  They deserved to get busted.
-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"I am the penguin bold! We sailed the sea, to tringalee,
in search of spanish gold" - The Magic Pudding - Norman Lindsay

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:04:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:04:34 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #819 - 24 msgs
References: <3.0.6.32.20020726120258.00a167e0@minn.net>
Message-ID: <3D4B47FA.2000108@gmx.net>

Leslie Bates wrote:

>At 09:30 AM 7/26/2002 -0400, "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Space Viking is definitely a "Traveller-like" book, and the Sword Worlds
>>feature prominently. My only complaint with it? It could actually have made
>>a much longer and more detailed novel.
>>    
>>
>
>Space Viking was originally written for serial publication in ANALOG. Even
>if Piper hadn't shot himself, the market conditions for Science Fiction
>novels would not have justified the rewrite. 
>
>And in my view, Space Viking could have been made into a bloody great movie.
>
>  
>
Still can ... anyone got contacts?

>Les
>
>==================================================================
>Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
>P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
>------------------------------------------------------------------
>The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
>				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
>==================================================================
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
>
>  
>


-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: UFO
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020731085909.45e7b234@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208031234400.22432-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Douglas:

On Wed, 31 Jul 2002, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> I was trying to grow up, then I got cancer, and decided that life was too
> short to be serious about it.
>
> Many cancer patients have a "New Life Birthday," dating from their
> diagnosis date (July 27th for me.)  So I just turned 7.  A good age, in my
> opinion. :)

 I completly understand what you are saying. FWIW I turned 20 in June the
same way. Got the word when I was 30. I responded to treatments and it
disappeared. I refuse to grow up. Besides it would blow my PTSD benefits
<LOL>

BCNU

-- 
 *****        Lord Ronin from Q-Link
******  ****  Sensei David O.E. Mohr
**      ***   Chancellor & Editor for
**            Amiga & Commodore Users Group #447
**      ***   SysOp: The Village BBS {Centipede}
******  ****  503-325-2905 300-28.8K C/G-Ascii-Ansi
 *****        Files, Games, E-Mail, PBEM, Msg Bases


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: max hull size
References: <200208030049.LYB01145@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c23a9b$8969cf30$7400a8c0@matt>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> Steven Hudson asks
>>  BTW, do the Reprints include both editions of HG?
>
> Nope. The reprints have HG2 (which was, in its time, issued
> very briefly).

Briefly?

When did MT come out? '86 wasn't it? Thats 6 years. HG1 was only out for a
year or so. HG1 was published in '79 and HG2 in '80.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: JTAS
Message-ID: <fb.2a270e0d.2a7ca408@aol.com>

>[**] For those who would like to participate, just go to the 
>Starship/Vehicle Design discussion board on JTAS.  Not a subscriber?  
>Why not?  It's only $15 US per two years for biweekly issues and access 
>to archives, discussion boards and Brubek's chat room.  [And if you 
>mention that aurictech referred you, I get a free month added to _my_ 
>subscription! ;-)]
>
>http://jtas.sjgames.com/subscribe/

You also get the thrill of reading my editorials, wherein I discuss items of 
vast import, like where to get the Emperor's favorite wine, and how tomatoes 
and Thomas Jefferson are relevant to Traveller.

Not to mention the assorted design competetions, scintilating discussions, 
and other kewl stuff. JTAS will restore hair (unless you don't want it 
restored), help you lose weight (or gain it), put steam in your stride (which 
isn't as painful as it sounds), and will (like Tree-Frog Beer) make you look 
great and have lots of girlfriends (and/or boyfriends, if you prefer). 

OK, maybe not ALL that stuff, but it IS worth $15 for 2 years. 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Superstition (and Movies)
Message-ID: <d.2aca729a.2a7ca6f7@aol.com>

>At one point during WWII the survival rates of US aviator pilits was not 
>*much* better than kamakazi's. The crucial element is that they believed 
>that their survival was ultimately influenced by their actions and 
>abilities and their omnipresent good luck.

The movie MEMPHIS BELLE (the 1990s remake, not the earlier documentary) 
illustrates this about as accurately as Hollywood ever gets history. It's a 
pretty good representation of the history involved, including the extreme 
youth of the aircrew.

"Danny! Jack threw my St Christopher overboard!"
"Here, take my lucky rubber band . . . it works, honest."

Several years ago, I was toying with the notion of writing a book of war 
movie reviews discussing the relative level of accuracy of each (although I 
think it has already been done). GETTYSBURG is one of my faves in this 
regard. 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Blowing holes in Japan (was " Re Patton")
Message-ID: <F215m4i0FN8Qnr2Hs3j00000007@hotmail.com>

From: "Fred Ramen" <von_rammen@msn.com>

     "Oh, I agree that the Stalin didn't want to expand the conflict any 
more than Truman did. My point was merely that it would have been extremely 
unlikely for the Soviets to allow a divided Japan (as posited in Mr. 
Whipsnade's original post) to be used as a staging area for American 
intervention in Korea (or Vietnam, for that matter)."


My dear Mr. Ramen,

     I completely agree with your analysis, an invaded, occupied, and 
divided Japan could have never been used to support or supply a war in 
Korea.  OTOH, if the Allies had found it necessary to invade Japan, there 
wouldn't have been a Korean war in the first place.
     Soviet Far Eastern forces, which were in the process of clearing 
Manchuria of Japanese troops during August of '45, would have simply 
continued the process down the Korean penninsular.  There would have been no 
division of control between US and USSR at the 38th parallel, as happened in 
history, the USSR would control the entire penninsular and Kim Il Sung would 
have been installed as the acting puppet premier of a communist and united 
Korean nation.
     After disposing of the Korean conflict, the rest of the Cold War in the 
Pacific gets murky.  The USSR would have warm water ports in Korea, 
Hokkaido, and northern Honshu, none of which have the "choke points" that 
assisted us in the Atlantic.  The Pacific would not have been the placid 
American lake it was in our history.
     Oddly enough, having Soviet troops in a Tokyo sector surrounded by an 
American occupation zone may have given the Kremlin pause.  Would there have 
been a Berlin blockade if a corresponding Tokyo blockade was threatened?
     Also, an invasion of Japan may have created a far more nervous post-war 
US.  Having 100s of thousands of troops tied down in our parts of the Home 
Islands fighting against a guerilla campaign would have had some effect on 
the home front.
     Nationalist Chinese troops were slated to occupy portions of the Home 
Islands if an invasion came off.  How would Mao's victory in '49 have 
effected those forces?  Would Mao's triumph even have occurred?  The 
Nationalists may have been forced by a more nervous West to reform, instead 
of being virtually ignored after the war ended.  China could be balkanized 
in the invasion timeline.
     Vietnam is another problem.  Would the US have let the French flounder 
around as they did if we were as worried about the Pacfic as we were about 
Europe?  The US dealt with Tito, he may have been a commie but he wasn't the 
Kremlin's boy.  One wonders if a similar relationship would have been made 
with Ho Chi Minh.  A more likely scenario would have been an early and 
forceful entry in to the Vietnam conflict by the US in the 50's.
     The result may have been an Indochina similar to our Central America, 
rat bastards in charge of corrupt, laughing-stock nations supported by the 
West solely because they aren't communists.
     The effects of all this on the Phillipines is unclear too.  Would the 
US take a more active interest, for good or ill, in Manila if the Pacific 
was more threatening?  What would have been the effect on all the European 
colonies in South East Asia?  Would an Indonesia or a Malaysia happened?
     Gee, ain't alternate history fun?

     "Of course, I may be overstating the importance of Japan to US Pacific 
security, and am quite open to being corrected in this regard."

     I don't think it could be overstated.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:35:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat HULL THICKNESS LIMITATION
Message-ID: <190.ad335f8.2a7ca953@aol.com>

 >HULL
 >185.000 tons standard, 2,590.000 cubic meters, Planetoid Configuration

In a Planetoid Configuration of this size the maximum thickness of the outer 
hull is 0.6 meters and likely much less.  If this ship were 185,000 tons, the 
maximum outer thickness of the outer hull would be 6.0 meters.  Yet in both 
cases they are considered to be naturally armor 3.  I think there should be a 
lower limit on allowable tonnages for Planetoid and Buffered Planetoid ships.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat
Message-ID: <c5.26be7ee0.2a7caa89@aol.com>

 >In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships which have an armor
 >factor of 13 or less.

With a fusion gun?  I'm sorry, you must be using rules I'm not familiar with. 
 I was thinking of High Guard.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020802200157.46a789a6@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <3.0.5.16.20020802200157.46a789a6@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m3k7n8eh5f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes:
>
> Oh, and an NCO having sex with a solider in the same chain of
> command is a violation of the UCMJ.  They deserved to get busted.

That's a nice enough theory, but if one throws a bunch of 18-20
yr. old boys and girls together they're going to get randy.  That's
the Way It Is, regardless of what the rules are.  At least if one
believes the modern prattle that one's sexual drive is irresistible,
then one cannot hold anyone to account for giving in to said drive.
And if one _doesn't_ hold to said prattle, then there's a whole load
of other things one must abandon.

I'd find the whole business amusing, were it not so deadly serious.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
According to the National Crime Survey administered by the Bureau of
the Census and the National Institute of Justice, it was found that
only 12 percent of those who use a gun to resist assault are injured,
as are 17 percent of those who use a gun to resist robbery.  These
percentages are 27 and 25 percent, respectively, if they passively
comply with the felon's demands.  Three times as many were injured if
they used other means of resistance.
          --G. Kleck, Policy Lessons from Recent Gun Control Research

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: JTAS
In-Reply-To: <fb.2a270e0d.2a7ca408@aol.com>
References: <fb.2a270e0d.2a7ca408@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3fzxweh3i.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

GDWGAMES@aol.com writes:
> 
> OK, maybe not ALL that stuff, but it IS worth $15 for 2 years. 

Seconded.  JTAS is _very_ cool.  I like it lots.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
With the Smart Ship's reputation so far, they will have to build a bloody
big trebuchet for the damn thing to be useful as a weapon.
                                         --Derry Hamilton

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <m3k7n8eh5f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <3.0.5.16.20020802200157.46a789a6@pop.mindspring.com> <m3k7n8eh5f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020803135320.A15209@freeman.little-possums.net>

Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> At least if one believes the modern prattle that one's sexual drive
> is irresistible,

I've never heard that one before.  Where is it prattled, and who
prattles it?


> And if one _doesn't_ hold to said prattle, then there's a whole load
> of other things one must abandon.

Like what?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
Message-ID: <18b.bc68e45.2a7cae08@aol.com>

 >> >Nor will I criticize the voters of that city for being stupid enough to
 >> >re-elect as mayor a convicted drug dealer, and then expect the tone of 
the
 >> >city to be anything other than what it is.
 >
 >>Oh, but they're not stupid.  They knew what the tone of the city would be. 
 
 >>That's why they voted for him.
 >
 >I refuse to believe that they _want_ a city that is so badly mismanaged
 >that Congress was ready to take away what autonomy they had.

What was it Ayn Rand said -- "To refuse to consider something is to fear that 
the worst is true"?  Something like that.  If the people of D.C. didn't want 
what they have, they'd do something about it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 22:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 21:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
Message-ID: <2d.211708b3.2a7cb2c1@aol.com>

 >All I am doing is letting Fighters act like Turrets. If several turrets can
 >concentrate their fire to increase their effectiveness, why can't several
 >fighters?

You could extend this same concept to spinal mount vessels.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 22:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 21:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <20020803135320.A15209@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <B970A810.6788B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/2/02 8:53 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:

> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
>> At least if one believes the modern prattle that one's sexual drive
>> is irresistible,
> 
> I've never heard that one before.  Where is it prattled, and who
> prattles it?
> 

Here on the TML, for one place.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 22:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 21:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>

 >> How
 >> serious is the trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took place because
 >> the small island of England was not self-sufficient in either agricultural
 >> or industrial matters, but I don't think this situation will arise on many
 >> _planets_.  If trade is truly a major issue and lifeline then a massed 
herd
 >> of raiders will be crippling regardless of any other fleet elements
 >> employed.  But I think most planets with populations sufficient to have
 >> significant trade connections will have huge internal capacites to produce
 >> what they need anyway, and huge reserves of whatever they have to import
 >> (consider our Strategic Oil Reserve).  
 >
 >If planets are so self sufficient, then why does TNE describe planets 
failing 
 >because they were cut off from interstellar trade?

Don't know.  Doesn't make much sense to me.  I can see it happening here and 
there of course, but not en masse.  TNE may state it, but that's not 
necessarily a reason to just swallow it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 22:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri Aug  2 21:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Meduim Navies
References: <20020803025421.23615.36452.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B5AFB.8934A0CD@ameritech.net>

> Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 19:10:38 -0500
> From: Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com

> This may have gotten lost in my last post and the minor flame spat
> going on, so I'll throw it out again and see if anyone bites.
> 
> What would the Imperuim see as the maximum allowable size, maximum
> allowable quantitative/qualitative weaponry, for a mercenary ship?
> 
> Presumabley they would frown on paws and meson guns, but would they
> allow big bay weapons?

At first blush I think the authorities will start to watch closely if
you have armed ships bigger than 5-10,000 tons. As for weaponry if I
were in charge I'd definitely try to put the kibosh on privately held
bay weapons since they can pose a threat to IN ships of the line as well
as having the potential to escalate wars from the relatively clean form
that the Imperium tollerates to the kind of battle that can cause long
term damage to facilities, populations, and trade.

YMMV

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 22:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 21:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes
Message-ID: <4957.64.8.3.28.1028349006.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

Hello Folks,
  Just a question of sorts...

In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head tax" or does it charge
an income tax on its citizens for its Imperial Budget requirements?  In
short, if the Imperial government taxes 10% of a Gross Planetary Product,
then it would in essence be an income tax.  If it charges a flat 500 CR
per person on a planet, then it is a head tax.  Which is it?

And I find it an interesting thought here.  If the Imperium charges say,
3% of a planet's gross planetary product for its military taxes - this tax
is on top of the local ruler's/government's tax.  How much in the way of
taxes can a population take before its economy begins to stagnate?




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 22:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 21:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEKPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Thomas Barnes" <twb3@charter.net>
>
>> if the tables were turned. I have no doubt the Axis powers, had they won,
>> would have gone on a rampage of looting, rape, genocide, and destruction
>> that would boggle the mind, and luckily remains in the realm of
science-fiction.
>
>In fact, the Axis powers DID go on a rampage of looting, rape, genocide
>and destruction.  That is why they had to be stopped.

But it was such a limited rampage -- only most of Europe, western Russia,
the northern edge of Africa, China, Burma, Thailand, Indochina, the
Philippines, New Guinea, Indonesia, Melanesia, and Micronesia really
suffered.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 22:50:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 21:50:46 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Military Psychology
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEKPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com>
>Subject: [TML] re: Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
traveller)
>
>With "freezer pop" soldiers, you might have people who wake
>up, fight to the death for a week, then go back to sleep
>until the next fight to the death crops up. No down time,
>no ability to process what happened before it all starts
>again.  Imagine the post-war condition of the average US

For this reason, I doubt that the Imperial and Solomani militaries rely
heavily on low berth for troop transportation.  The Zhodani may have an edge
with better capabilities in psychology.

>Forever War was a helluva book, btw.

Agreed!

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIELACEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng)
>
>Even today, I am still amazed just how lucky the Germans were.  Even with
>all their planning, they still could not have predicted the good fortune
>they actually got.

Possible explanations for this run of luck:

1) That was when the devil was still living up to his side of the deal for
Hitler's soul.

2) That was when the Germans had the Ark of the Covenant; the Indiana Jones
movie's action takes place too early.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:09:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:09:42 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKELACEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
>Most Traveller parties need a full time lawyer - but how many
>have you seen with one?

I ran a campaign some years ago where the PCs got arrested and their ship
impounded by the local authorities when they entered orbit around Moughas.
The Fifth Frontier War had started, and the Vargr Gireel Fleet had captured
Moughas, but was using the local government structure while it plundered
whatever it could.  The local legal system called for the accused to be
represented by counsel, and required a choice of counsel, so three Vargr
lawyers appeared on a split screen to pitch their services.

The PCs eventually picked the most aggressive one, who got out of his seat
and went over to each of the other two and punched them out.  They did ok
with his services, but his legal fees cost them much of the money they'd
acquired to date.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:10:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:10:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMELACEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>
>But this is the TML, and one supposes that in the 57th century, the measure
>of a sophont's fitness for a particular duty is tied to their ability to
>perform it.  One may assume that the Imperium establishes baseline
>requirements for, say an MOS, and holds to those standards regardless of
>race or gender.  This may result in a higher proportion of males in a
>particular MOS, perhaps females in another.

That's how it works in my Traveller universe.  Of course, we add "species"
to "regardless of race [i.e., subspecies] or gender."

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:11:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:11:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOELACEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)

>But I'm certainly no expert on gender differences.

To paraphrase my late father, no man is.

--Glenn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:11:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:11:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <a8.f784519.2a7cbf66@aol.com>

 >> A good point worthy of discussion.  I have commerce raiders, but I
 envision
 >> them as travelling in a single mass, outrunning and dodging attempts by
 >> serious fleet elements to pursue them (unless, of course, the raiders
 blunder
 >> into them).  Small patrols and escorts are never going to be able to deal
 >> with such a herd, while major patrols and escorts deployed everywhere will
 >> seriously impact the size of the remaining core fleet.
 >
 >If you spread out a mix of powerful and less powerful commerce raiders,
 >you'll pull more fleet assets away. That's half the point.

I'll be concentrating on the core fleet of the enemy.  If I defeat them, then 
I'll round up the commerce raiders at leisure.  That's my whole point.

 >>How serious is the
 >> trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took place because the small
island
 >> of England was not self-sufficient in either agricultural or industrial
 >> matters, but I don't think this situation will arise on many _planets_.
 >
 >It'll impact revenue, which hurts over time. More importantly, it hurts
 >civilian morale and causes demands for proteciton. And you can damage the
 >logistics train - if the enemy is missile-heavy, he has to get them to the
 >battle area...

Good points all.  Sure you'll have revenue losses -- can you imagine what the 
Soviet Union's revenue losses were like? -- but if in the meantime the main 
enemy fleet is engaged and defeated then that won't matter.  "The only thing 
more expensive than a war is losing."  As for morale and demands for 
protection, the civilians will know their best chance for protection is a 
fleet victory.  One can point to any number of instances where stubborn 
insistence on city protection contrary to military necessity has caused the 
defeat of an army.  Further, the loudest calls for protection will be from 
those worlds capable of building their own local defense forces.  As for the 
missiles, yes, that's a major problem if you are missile-heavy, and I think 
the best way to solve it is to have large stocks on hand in protected bases 
before the war and not try to manufacture what you need during a war.

 >>If
 >> trade is truly a major issue and lifeline then a massed herd of raiders
will
 >> be crippling regardless of any other fleet elements employed.
 >
 >Until it inevitably gets squashed. Dispersed raiding works better, other
 >than for targeted strikes, say on a critical system to massacre the
 >concentration of merhcant shipping there.

It will only get squashed if it gets caught by a superior force.  If your 
opponent disperses, then dispersing yourself simply plays his game at his 
level, but staying concentrated leaves all of his dispersed elements unable 
to oppose you.  If your opponent concentrates and tries to force a major 
engagement then this will either require a huge containment fleet all out of 
proportion to the raider task force (in which case the main fleet will be 
left weakened) or a wild stroke of luck as the raiders blunder into this 
pursuing fleet.

 >Assuming he's rich enough to afford a fleet like that. Guerre de Course has
 >always been the weaker nation's option.

If you are richer than your opponent then there's little he can do.  If you 
are equal, then if you're rich enough to build a significant escort/patrol 
fleet and scatter it everywhere then he's rich enough to build an equal-value 
capital fleet and slowly march it through your scattered escorts.

 >> I don't think you can get "greater concentration of force" with "less
ships".
 >
 >I have 6 ships, you have 12. I draw 8 of your ships away with a feint, and
 >gain local superiority. You sent them all? Great. I smash your base. You
 >sent none? Well, if my recon is up to it I'll know. Next time I just smash
 >something elsewhere , maybe with pairs of my ships, while you sit tight and
 >wait for the big clash at JUtland.

And if I outfeint you?  I think you're assuming a defensive and dumb enemy, 
with you holding all the offense and recon-intelligence cards.  If you have 
six and I have twelve I'll just guard the base with six and chase you with 
the other six.

I'm about done here.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <20020802231503.19852.60096.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17arId-0004ch-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>

"Thomas Barnes" <twb3@charter.net> wrote:
 
> > 
> > You really think that a computer can be powerful enough to simulate
> > all that and yet not have safeguards to prevent death?  I would
> > imagine that it'd be just like a modern simulator: screw up and you
> > get the `shatter screen.'
> > 
> > Although it could also be used to give you a nasty shock or something
> > every time you screw up...
> > 
> 
> Not necessarily.  I was working on an F-15 trainer a few years ago and
> stepped out of the seat to reach a terminal while leaving the aircraft
> "in flight".  It took a bit longer that I thought it would, and the
> uncontrolled simulated jet ended up impacting the "earth" at Mach
> 1.something.  
> 
> The control loader on the stick modeled stick forces due to the
> accelerations of the aircraft, so in response to the massive g-loading
> of the crash, drove the stick violently aft.  It is my good fortune that
> I was not in the way of the stick when it drove aft, since it hit the
> stops hard enough to snap a stainless steel cable in the control loader.

Ouch!

I'm guessing that by TL12+ all well-made simulators will be 
indistinguishable form the real thing, except that the simulators 
don't have the fast or lingering death if you screw up.  Combine 
holography and artificial gravity and really fancy computers and 
you've got a very powerful combination that might not even be that 
expensive. I'm guessing that driver ed for grav vehicles will involve 
getting thrown into a bunch of simulations of dangerous situations 
and then getting graded on how you do.  

Fighter sims would probably involve high-g loads (in fighters where 
the accelerations are greater than the degree of compensation), 
fast turns, zig-zag dodging at high-g and all manner of stuff that 
would leave the newbies sick as a dog immediately afterwards, and 
hurting the next day.

The fun part will come of someone figures out a moderately easy 
way to get someone into a simulator while making them think they 
are getting into the real thing.  You won't be able to pull that trick 
more than once on someone unless the sims are *really* good 
(and they might be), but it would be an *excellent* test of exactly 
how well a pilot has learned his or her lessons.  



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:19:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:19:49 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
In-Reply-To: <20020802231503.19852.60096.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17arIf-0004ch-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>

ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>) wrote:

> "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> writes:
> > 
> > Personally, I find it hard to shed many tears for Hiroshima,
> > Nagasaki, or Dresden.
> 
> I dunno--the firebombing of Dresden is IMHO one of the worst war
> crimes committed by the US.  Esp. the bit about destroying emergency
> vehicles...
> 
> That no-one was ever strung up for it is a travesty.  We're supposed
> to be better than that.

Agreed.  Hiroshima and Nagasaki can at least be argued as being 
better than the alternatives (although I've heard several different 
PoVs about how exactly necessary bombing Nagasaki was).  
However, Dresden is an amazingly clear cut case.  It was an act of 
terror and vengeance easily as bad as anything the other side did 
in it's bombing of civilian targets.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com  

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:20:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Volker)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:20:36 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Names
In-Reply-To: <14d.1114a660.2a6ad884@aol.com>
References: <14d.1114a660.2a6ad884@aol.com>
Message-ID: <31100237350.20020803141400@greimann.de>

> to Texas from Illinois, in company with my father and three notarized
> documents from her two older sisters and her father attesting to her birth at 
> the date and time in question. A few hours at the county courthouse and she 
> was issued a backdated document.


Scribble, scribble:

<campaign notes>
"Need  any  documents  you  "lost"?  Go  to Desdemona, they'll get you
one. ...For a price!"
</Campaign Notes>


-- 
*** Volker Greimann * volker@greimann.de ***
******  Long live Emperor Strephon!  *******


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:25:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:25:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Taxes
Message-ID: <3D4B6830.F9B207D4@mail.cswnet.com>

>In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head tax" or does it >charge an income tax on its citizens for its Imperial Budget >requirements?  In short, if the Imperial government taxes 10% of a >Gross Planetary Product, then it would in essence be an income tax.  >If it charges a flat 500 CR per person on a planet, then it is a head >tax.  Which is it?

Depends on the system your useing.
TCS says its a head count
Striker implies, by your definition, something like an income tax
Ian Ferguson's small navies and my meduim navies uses a hybrid tax

>If the Imperium charges say, 3% of a planet's gross planetary product
>for its military taxes - this tax is on top of the local
>ruler's/government's tax.

But the Imperium doesn't do that; Canon says it charges 30% of the
military budget, not the gpp[Strikerv1.0, book2, page38, section IV,
rule 73, part B, last paragraph]. How the local ruler comes up with the
money for the budget is his/her/its business, but no matter how much
money comes in the Imperuim is getting 30%. Otherwise, the local ruler
gets met by the Happy Baseball Bat [a companion of the Happy Fun Ball;
better not to ask]. Also, if the economy gets dragged down by said local
rulers taxation, I foresee problems between he/she/it and the Imperuim.
Isn't it part of the rules of war that the Imperuim doesn't like wars
that damage the economy of the Imperuim. The 3I MIGHT view overtaxation
as a problem if it led to economic instability and slow down in economic
growth. Then again it might not, considering the large number of planets
with high gov codes and presumably high taxes in one form or another. I
think it would depend on the situation and the ability of the local
ruler...see T4s Pocket Empires for that.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <20020803025421.23615.36452.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17arTK-0005yh-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>) wrote:

> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> > 
> > But this is the TML, and one supposes that in the 57th century, the
> > measure of a sophont's fitness for a particular duty is tied to
> > their ability to perform it.  One may assume that the Imperium
> > establishes baseline requirements for, say an MOS, and holds to
> > those standards regardless of race or gender.  This may result in a
> > higher proportion of males in a particular MOS, perhaps females in
> > another.
> 
> Yep.  I've heard, for example, a theory that women might actually make
> better fighter pilots, due to endurance or soemthing like that.

More than a theory actually.  The number of women being trained 
as fighter pilots continues to climb, and there are many predictions 
that the number of female fighter pilots will surpass the number of 
male fighter pilots in not all that many years.  Women in general 
are shorter, lighter, and have better resistance to g forces (ie they 
don't black out as quickly) all of which are very useful qualities in 
modern fighter aircraft. 

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <E17arId-0004ch-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMEAMIKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of
sneadj@mindspring.com
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 10:17 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller


"Thomas Barnes" <twb3@charter.net> wrote:
 
> > 
> > You really think that a computer can be powerful enough to simulate
> > all that and yet not have safeguards to prevent death?  I would
> > imagine that it'd be just like a modern simulator: screw up and you
> > get the `shatter screen.'
> > 
> > Although it could also be used to give you a nasty shock or something
> > every time you screw up...
> > 
> 
> Not necessarily.  I was working on an F-15 trainer a few years ago and
> stepped out of the seat to reach a terminal while leaving the aircraft
> "in flight".  It took a bit longer that I thought it would, and the
> uncontrolled simulated jet ended up impacting the "earth" at Mach
> 1.something.  
> 
> The control loader on the stick modeled stick forces due to the
> accelerations of the aircraft, so in response to the massive g-loading
> of the crash, drove the stick violently aft.  It is my good fortune that
> I was not in the way of the stick when it drove aft, since it hit the
> stops hard enough to snap a stainless steel cable in the control loader.

Ouch!

I'm guessing that by TL12+ all well-made simulators will be 
indistinguishable form the real thing, except that the simulators 
don't have the fast or lingering death if you screw up.  Combine 
holography and artificial gravity and really fancy computers and 
you've got a very powerful combination that might not even be that 
expensive. I'm guessing that driver ed for grav vehicles will involve 
getting thrown into a bunch of simulations of dangerous situations 
and then getting graded on how you do.  

Fighter sims would probably involve high-g loads (in fighters where 
the accelerations are greater than the degree of compensation), 
fast turns, zig-zag dodging at high-g and all manner of stuff that 
would leave the newbies sick as a dog immediately afterwards, and 
hurting the next day.

The fun part will come of someone figures out a moderately easy 
way to get someone into a simulator while making them think they 
are getting into the real thing.  You won't be able to pull that trick 
more than once on someone unless the sims are *really* good 
(and they might be), but it would be an *excellent* test of exactly 
how well a pilot has learned his or her lessons.  


_______________________________________________

Throw in a meson communicator and you've got telepresense

jml
so that's what a Ten gee Immelman is like

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <1a1.64c8bb6.2a7cc59a@aol.com>

 >Let's turn this on its head. Can you explain how this model of yours
 >works...? How do you plan to fight a war with it?

Recall, I'm working with CT HG (the original -- I understand there is an HG2 
out?).

I put a fleet together for the Spinward Marches.  Being what it is, it is 
primarily intended to be defensive.  Most of it is stationed at Jewell, 
Efate, and Regina, with task forces at Vilis, Lunion, and Glisten.  If the 
Zhodies send their main fleet body in a straight-on attack then we'll decide 
the issue then and there.  If they send the main body on an end run by Vilis 
heading for my high-population worlds then I'll just have to try to catch 
them while sending in two or three task forces to try and blockade Cronor, 
cutting off their supplies.  If that attack succeeds then they will be forced 
to retreat -- if they ever find out.  Meanwhile I'll be attempting to engage 
their main body with my main body.  If we meet then again we'll decide the 
issue.  If they scatter to spread havoc then I'll break up into units that 
hopefully will always outnumber their groups and just continue to pursue 
them, scooping them up as I find them while also leaving some task forces on 
the border hoping to catch their isolated elements as they try to leave.  
Anyway, that's what I envision.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
In-Reply-To: <E17arIf-0004ch-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>
References: <20020802231503.19852.60096.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <E17arIf-0004ch-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <2007.64.8.3.28.1028353249.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

Even Acts of Terror may be considered as life saving...

> However, Dresden is an amazingly clear cut case.  It was an act of
> terror and vengeance easily as bad as anything the other side did  in
> it's bombing of civilian targets.

I do *NOT* condone the targetting of civilian targets.  However - it is a
fact that the targetting of civilian targets is a viable military
strategy.  MAD - Mutually Assured Destruction, is the ultimate in
terrorism in the sense that it states plainly to your enemy "Kill my
non-combatants, and I will kill yours".
  Likewise, if Dresden told Germany in no uncertain terms, that continued
  terrorist activity on its part would be met in kind by such activity on
  the Allied side - then so be it.  I will *NOT* Judge the military
  commanders of that time for the decisions made.  Any more than I would
  condemn Isreal or India for use of military force against civilian
  targets - *IF* their own civilian populations are being targetted by
  enemies of their state.  If the enemy starts off bringing a rifle to
  battle, it would be a fool who refuses to sink to his enemy's level of
  barbarity, if he continues to bring a club to the fight.  Likewise -
  barbarism is sometimes the only thing that barbaric rulers and/or
  leaders will understand.  Enough said on that topic by myself ;)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
Message-ID: <186.bc7cec0.2a7cc747@aol.com>

 >> > Why do you want fighters to be more effective?
 >>
 >> So that they can have an outside possibility of damaging Capital ships at
 >> high TL
 >
 >And again, why do you want this? Barring me swallowing some and suffering
 >some strange kind of poisoning, no amount of flies can beat me in a straight
 >fight. My feeling is that fightrers are good for screening and keeping
 >merchies in line. Big ships are for killing big ships.

Yeah.  But Traveller is an RPG, not just a pseudo-scientific wargame.  It's 
nice to be able to have a Luke Skywalker in an X-wing.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 00:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 23:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <16.231f5efa.2a7ccd90@aol.com>

 >> Will they come apart if they take 98% casualties between breakfast and 
lunch? 
 >>  That is on a level with the original post that started this discussion.
 >
 >No it wasn't, because the original post didn't specify a proportion, 
 >merely an absolute quantity.

Let's look at what the proportion would be.  70,000 ton capital ship vs 
70,000 ton carrier.  Both J4, tech 15, as per CT HG1.  The carrier will be 
carrying fighters at about 35% of its mass.  The fighters to be at all 
effective will have to be 90 tons each.  (70,000 * .35) / 90 is 272 fighters 
(if anyone says the carrier and fighters will be cheaper and therefore more 
numerous just remember the 272 model 9 computers at 140MCr a pop).  The 
original quote from the original post was "a few hundred fighters".  I'd 
think that "a few hundred" would mean between 200 and 300.  Unless there is 
some extra-ordinary reason why such losses are necessary, I don't think 
anyone is going to want to be a fighter pilot on a carrier that sends out a 
few hundred fighters and only recovers a mere handful as a matter of course 
-- if it recovers any at all, since the margin of victory will be so narrow.  
In any case, if this involves, say, 100 ships per side, then in the end there 
will be about 28 lightly-damaged cruisers left (lightly-damaged as per the 
house rule originally discussed), while the fighters will just about all be 
eliminated.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 00:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 23:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <81.1f59b1a7.2a7cd257@aol.com>

 >> How serious is the trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took
 >> place because the small island of England was not self-sufficient in
 >> either agricultural or industrial matters, but I don't think this
 >> situation will arise on many _planets_.
 >
 >Not for the planets of any meaningful military capacity, anyway.  99%
 >of the production of the Imperium comes from 10% of the planets.  The
 >combined trade of those planets with every other planet (including
 >each other) is about 0.2% of their combined economies.  That means
 >that whatever they import can't be worth much.

You say it better than I do.  Thanks.  Wanting to protect or disrupt trade is 
great, but when you're looking at a map of what is actually there then you 
start thinking, "Now wait a minute ...."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 00:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 23:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <ac.2b37fb6e.2a7cd350@aol.com>

 >Personally, my opinion is that TNE needed an apocalypse and lack of
 >trade was just an excuse.

It certainly makes for an excellent RPG adventuring environment.  Depending 
on your tastes.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 00:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 23:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
Message-ID: <151.11d6b5dc.2a7cd85d@aol.com>

 >You see, I spent most of my time in the
 >Liberal Arts when I was in school, and it did me an irrepairable brain
 >injury. Traveller is therapy for me now.

I was going to say maybe ease up on the science and just create an 
adventurable world, but I see what you mean.  That's great, keep it up!

 >does a dense
 >atmosphere hold more energy? Wouldn't it take that much more energy to
 >"move" a dense atmosphere into weather changes?

Yes, and yes.  And too, denser atmospheres will have much more kinetic energy 
when moving.  I strong breeze in a dense atmosphere will probably knock down 
anyone trying to walk in the open.  Wish I knew the math to tell you.

 >Would the world's oceans act as thermal "batteries", and if so, how would 
they  
 >affect the weather?

Yes.  Oceans are tremendous reservoirs of heat and moderators of weather.  
Land climates near oceans are always warmer in winter and cooler in summer 
than land climates far away from oceans.  When I lived in Oceanside if you 
wanted air conditioning all you had to do was open an east window and a west 
window, because all that rising hot air in the inland desert drew a constant 
cool breeze off of the ocean 24 hours a day 365 days a year.  I didn't put on 
a coat or turn on a fan or air conditioner for four years.

On the other hand you don't get big storms inland.  Oceans store lots of 
heat, and it gets transfered in currents, storms, and hurricanes.

Wish I could tell you more.  If I see anything I'll direct you to it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 01:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 00:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <82.1f5501bd.2a7cdb36@aol.com>

 >Has anyone noted the set up with regards to the number of starports that 
 >can produce starships versus those that can only builld system ships?  And 
 >to make matters worse, there aren't that many high tech star ports around

I have.  It does make a big difference, doesn't it?  "If my ships are cheaper 
I'll be able to build more of them!"  No you can't.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 01:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 00:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
Message-ID: <2cce1d2ceb69.2ceb692cce1d@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Hopper <whopper@pobox.com>
Date: Saturday, August 3, 2002 3:44 am
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship 
optimization)

> Matt, Martin,
> I agree with both points presented below.  I think fighters should 
> be more
> effective in a coordinated, massed attack than they are 
> individually.  I also
> agree that 'coordinated' is the key term.
> 
> My solution is to group fighters into a 'squadron' so that their 
> weapons can be
> combined into one battery. But to do so, the squadrom must have a 
> controlling or
> 'master' fighter.  The squadron's combined attack is treated as if 
> it is one
> battery, and uses the rating of the computer in the controlling 
> fighter with an
> additional -1 modifier.
> 
<<snips details of fighter squadron house rule>>
> 
> Role-playing never came up in relation to this, but for role-
> playing purposes I
> would have the master fighter making recommendations to the pilots 
> of the
> squadron, perhaps through a Heads Up Display.  The individual 
> pilots could
> disregard the recommendations if they were willing to accept the 
> consequences.

You could also have the pilot of the "master" fighter make a Fleet 
Tactics roll each turn, with failure resulting in a -1 to the squadron 
fire Factor.

<<snip>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 01:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 00:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <1b9.4379064.2a7cdd3a@aol.com>

 >A large system like this would have to maintain a 
 >considerable number of ships in order to defend these assets

And not only can they, they'll all be powerful SDB's.  It will take vast 
resources to assault such a world.  And when the main jump fleet hears where 
you are, they'll come running.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 01:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 00:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <2d682c2d2cdb.2d2cdb2d682c@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: sneadj@mindspring.com
Date: Saturday, August 3, 2002 8:16 am
Subject: RE: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller

<<snip>>
> 
> The fun part will come of someone figures out a moderately easy 
> way to get someone into a simulator while making them think they 
> are getting into the real thing.  You won't be able to pull that 
> trick 
> more than once on someone unless the sims are *really* good 
> (and they might be), but it would be an *excellent* test of 
> exactly 
> how well a pilot has learned his or her lessons.

Or, a'la _Ender's Game_, get them in the real thing while they're 
convinced that they're just in a simulator (and thus can't be killed).
  



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 01:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 00:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"
Message-ID: <11c.14d66d9e.2a7ce27f@aol.com>

 >>>> "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!" >>>
 >
 >Under the rules of war, we've been discussing, if an enemy intentionally
 >builds fortifications or other military structures among a civilian
 >populance, then that enemy becomes rssponsible for the safety of those
 >aforementioned civilians. If those civilians are actively and willfully
 >supporting the enemy, then they are no longer considered noncombatants. So,
 >it IS Al Quaida's fault and responsibility if the US intentionally seeks to
 >bomb a legitimate military target that Al Qaida has hidden behind a human
 >shield.

I rest my case.

"It's Milosivic's fault we bombed a convoy of farmers!"
"It's Arafat's fault we bombed that apartment building!"
"It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a convoy of inauguration representatives on 
the open road!"

If I were to act with this level of disregard even in defense of my own 
children, I'd be in jail.  McVeigh was right -- "collateral damage" covers a 
multitude of sins.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 01:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 00:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <2d53e02d6366.2d63662d53e0@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
Date: Thursday, August 1, 2002 2:39 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] sword vs shotgun

> >From: Flykiller@aol.com  
> >Subject: Re: [TML] sword vs shotgun  
> >To: tml@travellercentral.com
> >
> > >the best, and I mean the best, adventures are those that 
> > >are "two party" adventures - one party of players against 
> > >another.  The referee can never buy or write a one-party 
> > >adventure that is as tense, hilarious, or as emotional as 
> > >a "two party".

<<snip>>
> 
> It's an old idea.  And, it's a very good way to deal with 
> those in the playing group who want to be sociopaths.  The 
> referee doesn't have to kill them - the other party can try 
> their best.  In my case, however, it came out even more often 
> than not - being the "good" party doesn't make you 
> bulletproof.

On that note, I shall repost something I said on this list several years 
ago:

"I would have to say that the nastiest "monster" a group of PCs can ever 
face is...another group of PCs. Savagely bloodthirsty, hideously 
well-armed, and possessed of a certain low cunning. (Just like the first 
group of PCs.)"

This and many more fine quotes may be found on Mark Urbin's Web site:

http://www.urbin.net/EWW/sigs/rpg-sigs.html




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 01:58:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 00:58:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <39.2b0d8f9c.2a7ce6d3@aol.com>

 >A config 7, dispersed structure, ship has the
 >highest to hit target of any configuration.
 >A high agility, high computer size A or less
 >meson escort is the hardest to hit of any ship.
 >Other weapons find it hard to hit with as well.
 >Additionally, is features the lowest hull cost.

I'm afraid we've been talking two different systems.  I've been talking CT 
HG1, but everyone seems to be talking about something else.  CT HG1 only 
distinguishes between hull sizes on to-hit adjustments, not hull types.  I'm 
afraid I don't know HG2, or for that matter any of the others, and it seems 
HG1 has been deprecated.

That's what I get for jumping in.

 >Costing
 >DD price range, they threaten any capital ship scoring weapon
 >and computer hits through radiation hits and all but Critical and
 >shattered fuel hits on hits and penetrate and score interior hits.

Yeah, see in HG1 a factor 9 meson cannot penetrate any meson screen of 3 or 
higher, and any capital ship is going to have meson screen 9.

Thanks.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 02:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 01:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <a9.2b679017.2a7ce930@aol.com>

 >>  >The Germans, and
 >>  >particularly the Japanese were horribly dehumanized.  We made our 
enemies
 >>  >into monsters so then it was OK to exterminate them.
 >> 
 >> If there was any dehumanizing of the Germans and Japanese, they did it
 >> themselves through their own brutality. 
 > 
 >Um, all of them, even the children?

Our side can do no wrong.  The other side is utterly evil, in all matters, in 
all ways, at all times, in all circumstances.

"The emergency food we're dropping to the Afghans might make them sick 'cause 
they're not used to it."
"The Taliban is poisoning the food we're dropping!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 02:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 01:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
Message-ID: <2d9a852d8ef1.2d8ef12d9a85@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net>
Date: Thursday, August 1, 2002 3:32 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)

> Rob Davenport <rgd@infinet.com> wrote:
> >	Ed Wood's "Starship Troopers" 
> 
> Kenji Schwartz gave a good rant compairing ST to an Ed Wood movie.
> You can find it on my SciFi sig quote page.

Another Kenji Klassic, also from Mr. Urbin's Web site:

In certain senses, I think the PMPP [*] is the ultimate distillation of 
the Traveller spirit. Technophallocentric belloeroticism. -- Kenji 
Schwarz on the Traveller Mailing List.

Upon reading that, I realized that the phrase can be modified to be 
singable to "Supercalifragilisticexpialidocius" (or however the heck 
that damnable song's title is spelled):

Everybody now!

<sings>

"Supertechnopallocentric belloeroticism...."

</sings>

[*] For those of you just tuning in, this refers to a pelvic-mounted 
plasma gun.
 
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/sigs/rpg-sigs.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 02:13:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 01:13:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in traveller)
Message-ID: <199.acd8aa3.2a7cea81@aol.com>

 >It's an old saw that military service is extended periods of
 >boredom punctuated by short periods of stark terror.  Imagine
 >if an army used sleeper ships to move their troops around...
 >soldiers whose military service consisted of sleeping through
 >the extended periods of boredom, and only being awake for the
 >periods of stark terror.
 >
 >That kind of setup might be cheap when it came to starship
 >life support costs, but I imagine the impact on the soldiers'
 >psyches would be extreme.

Not if they were only asleep during jumps.  "Good morning, we're passing 
through Regina and the captain decided you should all spend some money there 
for a few days."  And soldiers won't be spending years on ships anyway -- 
they'll only be there when in transport.  Kind of hard to practice armored 
maneuvers on the mess deck.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 02:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 01:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] damning (OT)
Message-ID: <18c.bcc9ac6.2a7cf019@aol.com>

 >> I've seen a handful.  Offsetting this, I've seen companies where every
 single
 >> corporal  and several sergeants get busted down for sex with the female
 >> privates.  I've seen active duty females refuse orders to perform physical
 >> tasks (like dumping trash cans) and tell sergeants to their face to "get a
 >> male to do it".  I've seen females who cannot, and I mean cannot, pass
 their
 >> limited physical fitness tests, who can't do  even seven pushups, but who
 >> still remain in units.  I've seen females who cannot climb the ladder from
 >> the shaft alley to the second deck and who have to be helped.  I've seen
 >> females finish their expensive training and then promptly be discharged
 >> because they're pregnant.
 >
 >Yeah, and I've seen human beings who were skilled and competent and
 >determined and motivated and just plain better than me being kept down
 >because they were born female. You can't damn half the human race on a
 >generality.

"Damn"?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 02:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 01:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prejudice (OT)
Message-ID: <c3.26abf399.2a7cf0f5@aol.com>

 >> > Whatever benefits they bring I think are outweighed by the negatives.
 I'd
 >> > dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their
 >> > traditional roles of nurse and clerk.  If the US military is so hard-up
 for
 >> > warm bodies that it really needs females, then I say reinstitute the
 WACS and
 >> > WAVES and whatever else, with their own standards and their own chain of
 >> > command, and put them in charge of stateside facilities like hospitals
 and
 >> > supply depots and personnel offices so men are freed up for more forward
 >> > duties.
 >
 >
 >Such sweeping prejudice. I am impressed.

I don't think recognition of a general trend of experience is prejudice.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 02:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 01:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: max hull size
Message-ID: <44.23c85f34.2a7cf2bd@aol.com>

 >> >Again, I'm assuming CT.  Let's see .... at tech 12, max hull size is 
 >>199,999 
 >> 
 >>   <1 MT (USP X) per HG2, pps. 26 & 28.
 >>
 >>Sorry -- CT HG.  I don't know what HG2 does.
 >
 >  OMG - someone _uses_ HG1?! I only got a copy by accident...
 >neat read, though.

Heck, I thought that _was_ Traveller.  Guess I'm a dinosaur.

 > BTW, do the Reprints include both editions of HG?

Don't know, but I don't think so.  They're just copies of the originals, 
typos and all.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 03:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 02:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Meduim Navies
Message-ID: <d0.2aca14d8.2a7cf556@aol.com>

 >What would the Imperuim see as the maximum allowable size, maximum
 >allowable quantitative/qualitative weaponry, for a mercenary ship?

Book 4 lists an example ticket calling for a reinforced brigade with full 
equipment, so that's probably the max.  I've drawn up a troop ship with J3 
that carried a battalion, and it was 19,000 tons.  So, I'd say either four 
20,000 ton ships or one 80,000 ton one.

As for ship's weapons, I've never seen a specified limit.  Presumably major 
governments are the only ones that can afford serious ship weapons.  I'd say 
no limit on defensive weapons and that a few factor 4 laser batteries would 
not draw attention, but anything more would be a fleet action weapon and I 
wouldn't think a mercenary unit would be interested in fleet actions.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 03:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 02:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] max hull size
Message-ID: <3c.222acf08.2a7cf724@aol.com>

 >> Sorry -- CT HG.  I don't know what HG2 does.
 >
 >HG2 is CT Book 5: High Guard, 2nd edition.
 >
 >It was published in 1980, replacing the 1st edition published in 1979. There
 >was a series of articles in JTAS at the time on updating your version from
 >1st to 2nd to save you buying a new copy. Obviously this passed you by.
 >
 >The version in the CT Reprints is HG2.

Man, I'm messing up left and right here.  Well then I have HG2, but I'm still 
lost.  The numbers and ship specifications I'm seeing posted I don't 
understand at all.  Nothing fits the HG2 book.  Meson gun factor 9 boats that 
are threats to capital ships?  I guess no-one uses HG anymore.

Thanks.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 03:12:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 02:12:04 2002
Subject: [TML] max hull size
In-Reply-To: <3c.222acf08.2a7cf724@aol.com>
References: <3c.222acf08.2a7cf724@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4382.64.8.3.28.1028365894.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

> Man, I'm messing up left and right here.  Well then I have HG2, but I'm
> still  lost.  The numbers and ship specifications I'm seeing posted I
> don't  understand at all.  Nothing fits the HG2 book.  Meson gun factor
> 9 boats that  are threats to capital ships?  I guess no-one uses HG
> anymore.

From my memory: you can have meson and partical accellerator bays as 100
ton and 50 ton bays.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 03:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 02:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <18f.bcbf05f.2a7cf8de@aol.com>

 >I am laughing too hard to issue the requisite command.

I'm sure Karen Hultgreen laughed too.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 03:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 02:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <120.13e4a72a.2a7cf985@aol.com>

 >Most Traveller parties need a full time lawyer - but how many 
 >have you seen with one?

But since the Imperium does not concern itself with local laws, then how much 
good would a lawyer do in a party that travelled from world to world?  He 
would be just as ignorant of local laws as the party.  In fact, he might get 
them into even more trouble.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 03:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Sat Aug  3 02:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Pilots of the Future (was: warship optimization)
In-Reply-To: <20020803083703.29055.32859.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentr
 al.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020803020158.009f6810@mailhost.efn.org>

On Fri, 2 Aug 2002 22:27:48 -0700, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:

>More than a theory actually.  The number of women being trained
>as fighter pilots continues to climb, and there are many predictions
>that the number of female fighter pilots will surpass the number of
>male fighter pilots in not all that many years.

Just in time, some would say, for teleoperated drones to make the whole 
profession obsolete.  There's already quite a bit of "Captain Kirk vs. M-5" 
bluster going back and forth, with the pilots shouting the loudest; they 
already dread Predator duty, which is mostly sitting in a trailer watching 
camera feeds that might as well be simulator screens.  They claim that a 
few weeks of this can dull their edge.  Most of them are smart enough to 
see where the trend inevitably leads... never being able to climb into a 
real plane and put their gonads on the line again.

(And if you think the females are any less macho than the males, you 
haven't heard the old axiom about having to work twice as hard just to make 
the grade.  In fact, the new face of feminism seems to be about proving 
that women can be every bit as stupid and self-destructive as men -- check 
out the rise of female binge drinking on campuses nationwide.)


>   Women in general
>are shorter, lighter, and have better resistance to g forces (ie they
>don't black out as quickly) all of which are very useful qualities in
>modern fighter aircraft.

Of course, if we do go to an all-drone force, different qualities will be 
selected for.  Like being good at video games... which brings us back to 
the start of this sub-thread, doesn't it?



--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 03:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 02:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <40.21b2d6f0.2a7cfea7@aol.com>

 >And I daresay that if we have women serving in full combat capacity
 >under the regimes of either seperate standards (i.e. where they must
 >not meet the same standards as men) or reduced standards (e.g. I
 >understand that two-man stretcher teams are now four or more), we will
 >see plenty of human beings who die miserably because their comrades
 >are not up to the task.

Actually, I'll bet we won't.  The military is talking now about how much 
future warfare will be on the level of special ops, utilizing local troops 
and only sending in special forces to coordinate bomb strikes, like in 
Afghanistan.

Army?  What army?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 03:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 02:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Pilots of the Future (was: warship optimization)
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020803020158.009f6810@mailhost.efn.org>
Message-ID: <002e01c23ad4$cbcbbd00$1d17bd50@martinjd>

> Of course, if we do go to an all-drone force, different qualities will be 
> selected for.  Like being good at video games... which brings us back to 
> the start of this sub-thread, doesn't it?

Main problem with drones is the ECM/ECCM/Jamming seesaw. 

And control lags over combat distances in space, OC.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 03:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 02:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] prejudice (OT)
References: <c3.26abf399.2a7cf0f5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003b01c23ad5$b1af5ca0$1d17bd50@martinjd>

>  I'd
>  >> > dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their
>  >> > traditional roles of nurse and clerk.

>I don't think recognition of a general trend of experience is prejudice.

You've just stated that you'd deny every single woman who wanted to and
could be good enough, the chance to try to be what she wanted, on the basis
of your - by definition limited - experience. Maybe not prejudice, but I
don't have a word for it.

I believe in absolute standards - good enough for the combat area is the
same for everyone, and yes, more men than women are. That's reality. But if
someone is good enough and actually wants to be there, then they have the
right to be.

I have a 7stone, 5 foot woman in my self-defense class. She's not got any of
the right instincts, but she doggedly keeps on trying to learn because she
feels the need. She's small and weak, and quite honestly her capabilities
are poor for the foreseeable future. Potentially, though, she might be able
to develop real capability to protect herself., And she WANTS TO.

Should I refuse to teach her because the chances of success are slim? I
think not.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:01:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:01:06 2002
Subject: [TML] damning (OT)
References: <18c.bcc9ac6.2a7cf019@aol.com>
Message-ID: <004201c23ad6$14a70e20$1d17bd50@martinjd>

>  >
>  >Yeah, and I've seen human beings who were skilled and competent and
>  >determined and motivated and just plain better than me being kept down
>  >because they were born female. You can't damn half the human race on a
>  >generality.
>
> "Damn"?

Condemn to medicrity, to second-class citizenship, to be denied things that
they want for arbitrary reasons, despite their determination, talent and
potential.

What you seem to want to do is to set limits for people.

That's a form of damnation to me.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] System Gen Help
References: <20020802001136.17476.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000201c23ad5$0a9e8080$7400a8c0@imogen>

Paul Walker wrote:
> I am doing an extended system generation.  I rolled
> for #6 to be the max orbit.  I also rolled for 2
> captured planets.  One is in orbit 6.3 and the other
> is in 6.0
> 
> Orbit 6 and 5 are both SGG's.  4 is the mainworld and
> the habitable zone.
> 
> Is this legitimate?  Or do I need to move the captured
> planet in orbit 6.0 to somewhere else.

I don't know of any written rule to cover this (someone speak  up
if they know of one)  but  I  don't  see  a  problem  with  this.
Captured planets aren't just extra planets, they are plants  that
were added to the system after it formed.  The max orbits  number
just means max number of *normally forming* orbits (unless  we're
talking about companion stars).  And the orbit  number only tells
you the *average distance* from the star.  What I tend to do (and
would do in this case) is to give a combination of  some  or  all
of: make the orbit highly eccentric, or highly  inclined  to  the
system's orbital plane, or make it's motion retrograde,  or  give
the planet a high axial tilt.  Probably all.

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"
References: <11c.14d66d9e.2a7ce27f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <005301c23ad6$a4ab5760$1d17bd50@martinjd>

>
> I rest my case.
>
> "It's Milosivic's fault we bombed a convoy of farmers!"
> "It's Arafat's fault we bombed that apartment building!"
> "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a convoy of inauguration representatives
on
> the open road!"
>
> If I were to act with this level of disregard even in defense of my own
> children, I'd be in jail.  McVeigh was right -- "collateral damage" covers
a
> multitude of sins.

This sort of thing happens in war all the time. War is a tapestry of misery
and suffering, most of it needless.

People demand that we go to do what must be done ( or sometimes protest
about it and refuse to see why it must be done) then condemn the military
when innocents get hurt.

The answer? Learn to get along and abolish conflict.
Until then, we must accept the paradox and try to do the best we can not to
cause needless suffering. But we will, all the same.
That's why this world sucks.






From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:07:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:07:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <2cce1d2ceb69.2ceb692cce1d@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <006001c23ad7$072d8ac0$1d17bd50@martinjd>

>
>
> > Matt, Martin,
> > I agree with both points presented below.  I think fighters should
> > be more
> > effective in a coordinated, massed attack than they are
> > individually.  I also
> > agree that 'coordinated' is the key term.
> >

I'm thinking that an initial "battery" attack would be permissible, with
"friction" throws required to avoid losing cohesion and becoming just a mob
of armed gnats. Breaking off and reforming would be necessary.

You might also consider fighter control bays aboard carriers?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:08:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:08:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <82.1f5501bd.2a7cdb36@aol.com>
Message-ID: <006b01c23ad7$2b16f660$1d17bd50@martinjd>


> >Has anyone noted the set up with regards to the number of starports that
>  >can produce starships versus those that can only builld system ships?
And
>  >to make matters worse, there aren't that many high tech star ports
around
>
> I have.  It does make a big difference, doesn't it?  "If my ships are
cheaper
> I'll be able to build more of them!"  No you can't.
>

See above comment that HG/TCS does not adequately provide a realistic naval
warfare system. But it is a cool game.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:08:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:08:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <182.c122206.2a7d0578@aol.com>

 >But this is the TML, and one supposes that in the 57th century, the measure
 >of a sophont's fitness for a particular duty is tied to their ability to
 >perform it.  One may assume that the Imperium establishes baseline
 >requirements for, say an MOS, and holds to those standards regardless of
 >race or gender.  This may result in a higher proportion of males in a
 >particular MOS, perhaps females in another.

Does MOS really describe the job requirements?  Sure, anyone can sit at a 
desk and process paperwork -- but if paratroopers land nearby then I think it 
becomes clear that what your MOS is and what your actual job is are two 
different things.  Relying strictly on MOS leaves your army inflexible and 
brittle.  The marine's approach is good -- no matter what you go on to be, 
you start out as an infantryman.

And I think you'd see quite a bit of racial segregation.  For example, as I 
understand, in the old Imperial Japanese Army a man could be rejected for 
service because of too much body odor.  I'm sure a unit of mixed races would 
have many similar distracting conflicts of culture and biology.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <186.bc7cec0.2a7cc747@aol.com>
Message-ID: <007901c23ad7$ae247640$1d17bd50@martinjd>

>  >
>  >And again, why do you want this? Barring me swallowing some and
suffering
>  >some strange kind of poisoning, no amount of flies can beat me in a
straight
>  >fight. My feeling is that fightrers are good for screening and keeping
>  >merchies in line. Big ships are for killing big ships.
>
> Yeah.  But Traveller is an RPG, not just a pseudo-scientific wargame.
It's
> nice to be able to have a Luke Skywalker in an X-wing.

Well, yes. The Death Star attack was more like a one-off asymmetric attack
than a regular combat operation. I'm willing the believe (for gaming and fun
purposes) in such a one-off "we have an opportunity" operations. But not in
routine combat.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:14:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:14:09 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
Message-ID: <fc.1bc430d6.2a7d06b7@aol.com>

 >Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
 >big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.

What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other sensor systems 
you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Firearms in Vacumn
In-Reply-To: <3D43E470.DA5F22D1@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20803.011715.6z8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> 
>> In mail you write:
>> 
>> > "Robert Uhl " wrote:
>> >>
>> >> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
>> >> >
>> >> > No, but guns *have* been fired underwater (this is a somewhat
>> >> > different situation than firing one with a barrel full of water).
>> >>
>> >> Anyone here have any experience doing this?  I know that it's supposed
>> >> to work, but I've never worked up the courage or folly necessary to
>> >> play with it.  I've a lot of respect for Things What Go Boom, and I've
>> >> little desire to annoy them...
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
>> >> If your franchise is not secured by force of personal arms, you are a
>> >> subject, not a citizen.                               --H. Beam Piper
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> TML mailing list
>> >> TML@travellercentral.com
>> >> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>> >
>> > I launched a model rocket from underwater after seeing it in "The Model
>> > Roceteer" It was very
>> > impressive.
>> 
>> Do you still have any copies of The Model Rocketeer? Mine got lost a
>> long time ago :-(
>
> I think so, I'll have a look next time I'm cleaning that part of the garage. 
> Anything in particular
> or do you want that article on underwater launches?

Well, I'd like to have a set of the silly things, or at least a decent
scan of them.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:19:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:19:09 2002
Subject: [TML] missile capacities
Message-ID: <120.13e4a732.2a7d07e4@aol.com>

 >> They are too inefficient to kill, yes.  But they can still be a royal pain
 >> in the ass.  In the end though capital ships can kill them but they can't
 >> kill capital ships.  Eventually they run out of missiles.
 >
 >Only in the real world, not in HG. : )

HG says absolutely nothing about it.  Show me a hundred ton bay and a 
physical object, and I can tell you how many of those objects will fit into 
the bay.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <1a1.64c8bb6.2a7cc59a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <008601c23ad9$12eafee0$1d17bd50@martinjd>


> >Let's turn this on its head. Can you explain how this model of yours
>  >works...? How do you plan to fight a war with it?
>
> Recall, I'm working with CT HG (the original -- I understand there is an
HG2
> out?).
>
> I put a fleet together for the Spinward Marches.  Being what it is, it is
> primarily intended to be defensive.  Most of it is stationed at Jewell,
> Efate, and Regina, with task forces at Vilis, Lunion, and Glisten.  If the
> Zhodies send their main fleet body in a straight-on attack then we'll
decide
> the issue then and there.  If they send the main body on an end run by
Vilis
> heading for my high-population worlds then I'll just have to try to catch
> them while sending in two or three task forces to try and blockade Cronor,
> cutting off their supplies.  If that attack succeeds then they will be
forced
> to retreat -- if they ever find out.  Meanwhile I'll be attempting to
engage
> their main body with my main body.  If we meet then again we'll decide the
> issue.  If they scatter to spread havoc then I'll break up into units that
> hopefully will always outnumber their groups and just continue to pursue
> them, scooping them up as I find them while also leaving some task forces
on
> the border hoping to catch their isolated elements as they try to leave.
> Anyway, that's what I envision.

Okay. The Zhos have thrown large numbers of light cruisers and "merchant
raiders" (armed merchant ships posing as legitimate traffic) across the
border and are raiding lightly defended ports, shooting up your logistics
train and the Sector Duke is yelling at you that dozens of world governments
are yelling at HIM for protection. Many of these raids are by ships in the
light or even heavy cruiser class. Some sightings mention capital ships and
small task groups. They've probably got support ships out there somewhere
too.

Zho fleet elements have struck at weak targets on the border, but you don't
know it they retired afterward or are advancing.
Your intelligence is a mess of vessel reports, and while the attacks on
minor worlds are trivial from a military standpoint, those are imperial
citizens being shot up. Some border  worlds (again, soft targets) have been
assaulted by ground forces and may now be under occupation. The sector duke
wants those worlds retaken. He wants the raids stopped.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:24:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:24:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonabo Class Missile Frigate
Message-ID: <c1.24afabf6.2a7d092f@aol.com>

 Incidentally, it goes without saying that these things kill TL E- ships
 quite nicely.

TL E is very vulnerable.  The meson screens and nuke dampers are weak.

I think this is a better design:

1000 ton hull
J4
M6
Armor4
100 ton missile bay (holds 100 salvos)
etc

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Baboon Class Missile Frigate
Message-ID: <19c.6563ee4.2a7d0bfa@aol.com>

 >A trillion credits worth of these things will only mission kill one or two
 >capital ships per turn, and will suffer considerable losses in return.
 >
 >They probably don't work out as a match for capital ships, but they are
 >close enough to be useful, I suspect.

Assuming CT HG2, if you put armor 4 on them they are very difficult to deal 
with.  I've run simulations of this several times, and each time it's a draw. 
 The capital ships can kill them, but only a few at a time.  By the time 
hundreds of them are forced into the reserve you have dozens repairing their 
way out and back into the front line each turn, with a steady-state of about 
2 on-line to 1 in-reserve.  Meanwhile they sweep the capital ships of weapons 
at a steady rate.  It's close, but by the time the frigates are ready to win 
they run out of missiles.  It's curiously balanced.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:38:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:38:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <a8.f784519.2a7cbf66@aol.com>
Message-ID: <009b01c23adb$506d89c0$1d17bd50@martinjd>

>  >
>  >If you spread out a mix of powerful and less powerful commerce raiders,
>  >you'll pull more fleet assets away. That's half the point.
>
> I'll be concentrating on the core fleet of the enemy.  If I defeat them,
then
> I'll round up the commerce raiders at leisure.  That's my whole point.

Yes indeed. All we need is a decisive battle and we've won. Of course,
sometimes you can't have one. While the main fleets search for one another,
you get nibbled at, and your political will gets eroded.

> Good points all.  Sure you'll have revenue losses -- can you imagine what
the
> Soviet Union's revenue losses were like? -- but if in the meantime the
main
> enemy fleet is engaged and defeated then that won't matter.

IF. But what if the enemy uses his fleet in being as a threat, a pin, while
he crumbles at you? What if he WON'T fight that decisive battle?

>"The only thing
> more expensive than a war is losing."  As for morale and demands for
> protection, the civilians will know their best chance for protection is a
> fleet victory.

As they're bombed and shot up by a cruiser? As they hear more reports of
merchant ships and outposts killed by raiders? No they won't.

Modern war - 4th generation war - is fought in the living rooms of the
populace. Manipulating them is one of the keys to victory. Give them enough
uncountered threats, enough needless deaths, and they'll be demanding peace.


>One can point to any number of instances where stubborn
> insistence on city protection contrary to military necessity has caused
the
> defeat of an army.

And yet you have to do it sometimes. War is not purely a military matter. It
is the attempt by one state to impose its will upon the other, by military
and... other...means.

>Further, the loudest calls for protection will be from
> those worlds capable of building their own local defense forces.  As for
the
> missiles, yes, that's a major problem if you are missile-heavy, and I
think
> the best way to solve it is to have large stocks on hand in protected
bases
> before the war and not try to manufacture what you need during a war.

Procurement and budget issues. No force ever went to war with enough
ammunition. And once you move from base and fiore some missiles, you have to
get resupply. Either by goijng back to rearm, or by using vulnerable
logistics ships.

>
>  >>If
>  >> trade is truly a major issue and lifeline then a massed herd of
raiders
> will
>  >> be crippling regardless of any other fleet elements employed.
>  >
>  >Until it inevitably gets squashed. Dispersed raiding works better, other
>  >than for targeted strikes, say on a critical system to massacre the
>  >concentration of merhcant shipping there.
>
> It will only get squashed if it gets caught by a superior force.

Which will happen if there is just one target at large.

>If your
> opponent disperses, then dispersing yourself simply plays his game at his
> level, but staying concentrated leaves all of his dispersed elements
unable
> to oppose you.

You can of course partially disperse or disperse and form some big and some
small raider groups. But raiding en masse is more of a targeted strike - hit
and leave. It's not really viable as a tactic, because raider forces are by
definition inferior to fleet units, and that's what they'll face if they
hand an opportunity to the opposition.

>
>  >Assuming he's rich enough to afford a fleet like that. Guerre de Course
has
>  >always been the weaker nation's option.
>
> If you are richer than your opponent then there's little he can do.

Who won the Vietnam war again?

>If you
> are equal, then if you're rich enough to build a significant escort/patrol
> fleet and scatter it everywhere then he's rich enough to build an
equal-value
> capital fleet and slowly march it through your scattered escorts.

You're thniking of everything in terms of a mapboard and counters. I'm
discussing warfare. I already mentioned the politoical necessity to catch
raiders etc so I won't bring it up again. But I will say that finding and
catching raiders is a ship-intensive and impressively difficult task, though
if you keep at it you'll succeed. Just remember that you can't be sure where
his forces are or what they're doing to you while you're marching through
his escorts.

>
>  >> I don't think you can get "greater concentration of force" with "less
> ships".
>  >
>  >I have 6 ships, you have 12. I draw 8 of your ships away with a feint,
and
>  >gain local superiority. You sent them all? Great. I smash your base. You
>  >sent none? Well, if my recon is up to it I'll know. Next time I just
smash
>  >something elsewhere , maybe with pairs of my ships, while you sit tight
and
>  >wait for the big clash at JUtland.
>
> And if I outfeint you?  I think you're assuming a defensive and dumb
enemy,
> with you holding all the offense and recon-intelligence cards.  If you
have
> six and I have twelve I'll just guard the base with six and chase you with
> the other six.
>
> I'm about done here.

The feint/outfeint is one of the risks of war. I may be willing to fight
your six with mine, and trust to my ships and crews to win it for me - this
sort of writing-down of the enemy at the best odds you can get was German
High Seas Fleet policy in WWI.

As to a dumb enemy... fair comment. I've heard the "enemy" make a number of
sweeping pronounbcements of the "oh, I'd just" that make me confident that
once reality intruded, friction would render this enemy less capable than he
thinks.





From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:39:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:39:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIELACEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <00a601c23adb$79171580$1d17bd50@martinjd>

> >From: cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng)
> >
> >Even today, I am still amazed just how lucky the Germans were.  Even with
> >all their planning, they still could not have predicted the good fortune
> >they actually got.
>
> Possible explanations for this run of luck:
>
> 1)

There was a good deception plan, and some excellent planning regarding
timing and execution. They made an opportunity to get lucky...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <3.0.5.16.20020802200157.46a789a6@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <00c701c23adb$e7d770a0$1d17bd50@martinjd>

> The 50s ended, my dear sir.  As long as they can do the job.  Oh, and an
> NCO having sex with a solider in the same chain of command is a violation
> of the UCMJ.  They deserved to get busted.
> -- 

Yeah! All hail Doug. Doug is Wise. 
For a 7 year-old penguin-obsessive....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <20020802231503.19852.60096.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <3D4B3637.35538EB8@mailbag.com>
Message-ID: <00e801c23adc$47c368c0$1d17bd50@martinjd>

> 
> Not quite Clint, yet even Clint had some intellegent moments.
.


You mean Clif!

Hey, everyone, he invoked Clif!

Clif has been Invoked!


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <112.1523c9f7.2a7c50e1@aol.com><014a01c23a78$a159d220$5d0bbd50@martinjd> <m3znw4epbc.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <00f701c23adc$73358a60$1d17bd50@martinjd>

> And I daresay that if we have women serving in full combat capacity
> under the regimes of either seperate standards (i.e. where they must
> not meet the same standards as men) or reduced standards (e.g. I
> understand that two-man stretcher teams are now four or more), we will
> see plenty of human beings who die miserably because their comrades
> are not up to the task.
>
> And I hardly think that shielding from death and destruction is
> `damning.'  Rather a nice thing to do, as a matter of fact.

Quite. We must have absolute standards for everyone, but those who make the
grade should be allowed to serve.

The present system of differential requirements is just plain daft.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
References: <fc.1bc430d6.2a7d06b7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <011801c23adc$bdd0f780$1d17bd50@martinjd>

> >Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
>  >big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.
>
> What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other sensor
systems
> you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?


Mines, even of a CAPTOR type, don't have much area coverage. You'd need a
lot of them to cover an area, though orbits and other choke points are a
possibility.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 05:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 04:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
Message-ID: <3015092fe19a.2fe19a301509@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Flykiller@aol.com
Date: Saturday, August 3, 2002 1:13 pm
Subject: [TML] mines

> >Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
> >big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.
> 
> What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other 
> sensor systems 
> you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?

I recommend you read Bruce Alan Macintosh's Definitive Sensor Rules for 
T4/FF&S2 for a complete discussion of sensors.  Passive sensors IRL 
would have ranges in space significanly better than those of active 
sensors such as radar.

http://traveller.mu.org/house/sensor.rules.html



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 05:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 04:16:03 2002
Subject: C**f (was: Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller)
Message-ID: <30360530300f.30300f303605@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: MJ Dougherty <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Date: Saturday, August 3, 2002 1:54 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller

> > 
> > Not quite Clint, yet even Clint had some intellegent moments.
> .
> 
> 
> You mean Clif!
> 
> Hey, everyone, he invoked Clif!
> 
> Clif has been Invoked!

Is that the TML equivalent of Godwin's Law?  ;-)

http://www.godwinslaw.com/

And yes, I remember the Days of C**f.... :-P

I refer the newcomers to the list to the fourth Ditzie pic on Jesse 
DeGraff's page:

http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/ditzie.htm


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 05:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 04:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Acceptable losses
Message-ID: <3073a4307395.3073953073a4@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: MJ Dougherty <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Date: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 6:45 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Acceptable losses

> 
> > Brian Caball says
> > >What about the whole "over the top" attitude of WWI? Pouring
> > >thousands of lives into suicidal charges for far less gain
> >
> > Yes, for a gain of a few yards, or no gain at all.
> >
> > Some people I know do *not* believe the casualty figures from
> > WW I.  They insist that it's simply not possible.
> >
> > I keep pointing out references in history books to whole
> > regiments being gunned down by machine gun fire.  They insist
> > that no men would do such a thing, especially if they had
> > seen it done before
> 
> See previous comment about French refusal to continue this way, at 
> leastuntil confidence in the gain was restored....

Then there's the pair of quotes that begin one chapter of T.R. 
Fehrenbach's _This Kind of War: A Study In Unpreparedness_ (quoted from 
memory):

"The capture of this hill is worth ten thousand men!" - French general 
on the Western Front during WW I
"Generous bastard, isn't he?" - The commander of the lead assault 
battalion




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 05:21:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 04:21:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Transporters and Tractor Beams
In-Reply-To: <3D446DE8.9002.D95DFD@localhost>
Message-ID: <20803.035628.8c6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On 28 Jul 2002 at 2:22, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> In mail you write:
>> 
>> > Well, I was thinking, if the Imperium were to invent (or
>> > retro-engineer) them and make them available on their ships. I take
>> > your point on size, I was thinking about them being Trek-sized I
>> > guess.  I know a Trek transporter extends above and below the
>> > occupiable deck some way so they'd be several tons in displacement
>> > and would probably require a good old suck on the power plant so they
>> > would probably be a no-no for player sized ships anyway.
>> 
>> Remember, Voyager and DS-9 had them in *runabouts*. 
>> 
>> And frankly, I agree with Niven's comments in his essay "the Theory and
>> Practice of Teleportation".
>> 
>> A single-ended teleport device (ie you only need equipment at one end)
>> is the recipe for a *very* short war.
>
> There was an A. C. Clarke short story about this. The Martians put a 
> nuke-armed ship over each major city on Earth to 'encourage' our co-
> operation. This merely encouraged the development of a teleportation 
> system. After the bombs were sent through they sent people to Mars to 
> have a look. IIRC the main demand was for archaeologists to sifts 
> through the ruins.

Actually, that was Clarke's *first* published story.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 05:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 04:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <39.2b0d8fbb.2a7d17c6@aol.com>

 >>Whatever benefits they bring I think are outweighed by the negatives.  I'd 
 >>dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their 
 >>traditional roles of nurse and clerk.
 >
 >I knew many excellent female soldiers, who pulled their weight and then
 >some.

I've known several too.  One particular medic and a particularly effective 
battalion XO and one hard little DI come to mind.  But the majority of the 
one's I've met were passive and weak or simply -- well, like most of you feel 
about me.  Some were flatly disobedient, and no-one would touch them because 
they were female.  Many were flatly unqualified physically, but they were 
female and so were kept.  I was, and am, bottom of the barrel physically, and 
I always had great difficulty passing any of the PT tests, but I could run 
circles around the vast majority of the females I've seen, no exaggeration.  
Oh I helped them, I encouraged them.  As a sergeant it was my job.  "Come on, 
you can do it!  Get yourself up!" on her sixth and last needed push-up.   She 
couldn't do it.  The (male) DI's gathered round her, and marked her record as 
passing, and she moved happily along.  Running alongside another who's about 
to fail her 24 minute PT:  "I'm dying!"  "You are _not_ going to die, no 
matter how much it hurts.  Now there's an injured man up there, you are his 
only hope, keep going!  C'mon c'mon c'mon!"  She passed, crawling over the 
line at the last second.  But I think Karen Hultgreen is at the end of this 
road.  I don't think an army or a navy needs this, I don't think a nation's 
defense needs this.  And that's not damning women, and that's not prejudice.

 >I also saw many male soldiers who whined and always seemed to be on
profile.

Many?  I saw a small handful -- in boot camp.  None of them passed.  Outside 
of that, it was just normal morale problems.  My first reserve unit was top 
notch, the navy men complained but were reliable and tough, and my next 
reserve unit seemed to have nothing but capable people (except for a few 
opportunistic bureaucrats).  I can't speak to where you were, but I've been 
to some places and seen some environments, and I can't say I've seen "many" 
male whiners or sick-bay commandos.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 05:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Aug  3 04:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lawyers
Message-ID: <20020803114546.E36724505@mo130uhou.palm.net>

n Space  
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain ; boundary="----=_Part_14584_6132357.1028375146935"
X-Mailer: smtp

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:
[snip]
>Most Traveller parties need a full time lawyer - but how many  
>have you seen with one?  

Even Doc Savage kept a lawyer in his group. :-)
Useful for the high Admin skills too...

----------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 05:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 04:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes
Message-ID: <68.23ff06b1.2a7d1d9d@aol.com>

 In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head tax" or does it charge
 an income tax on its citizens for its Imperial Budget requirements?  In
 short, if the Imperial government taxes 10% of a Gross Planetary Product,
 then it would in essence be an income tax.  If it charges a flat 500 CR
 per person on a planet, then it is a head tax.  Which is it?

Either way, you can't build a fleet that expends all of your budget.

Sales tax.  Not everyone will be able to pay a head tax, and chasing down 
everyone would be tedious.  A sales tax on large fixed would be more 
efficient -- they can't hide, and everyone winds up paying through higher 
prices anyway.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 05:59:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 04:59:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Taxes
Message-ID: <85.1f38e034.2a7d1f78@aol.com>

 >TCS says its a head count

Actually, it doesn't.  It says "... ; Cr500 is the amount of naval tax paid 
by the average citizen ; ..."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith Mormon minion of Arioch)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes
References: <68.23ff06b1.2a7d1d9d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <01ee01c23ae6$45115c90$6f7ba8c0@kenneith93j41k>

I would say the imperium levees a tax on a system and it is up to the system
to figure out how to pay it. We need you to give us 1.5 b more credits, the
imperium doesn't care how you raise the funds as long as they get their
money, just as I am sure their are many local government who blame the
imperium for the high taxes the people pay but in reality it goes to their
own pockets.
ken

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comics
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you
http://www.geocities.com/J_Elric_Smith/Index.html
----- Original Message -----
From: <Flykiller@aol.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 7:50 AM
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes


> In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head tax" or does it charge
>  an income tax on its citizens for its Imperial Budget requirements?  In
>  short, if the Imperial government taxes 10% of a Gross Planetary Product,
>  then it would in essence be an income tax.  If it charges a flat 500 CR
>  per person on a planet, then it is a head tax.  Which is it?
>
> Either way, you can't build a fleet that expends all of your budget.
>
> Sales tax.  Not everyone will be able to pay a head tax, and chasing down
> everyone would be tedious.  A sales tax on large fixed would be more
> efficient -- they can't hide, and everyone winds up paying through higher
> prices anyway.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208021045440.12501-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <3D4BC838.3C66EE32@mindspring.com>

Azalais Malfoy wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 2 Aug 2002, Hurrel, Brian wrote:
> 
> >  >The Germans, and
> >  >particularly the Japanese were horribly dehumanized.  We made our enemies
> >  >into monsters so then it was OK to exterminate them.
> >
> > If there was any dehumanizing of the Germans and Japanese, they did it
> > themselves through their own brutality.
> 
> Um, all of them, even the children?
<Snip> 
> Kiri

Children can be particularly cruel. Seeing a crowd of 'redneck' children (~8 yo) calling a black
child Nigger and attacking that child with rocks cured me of the 'children are innocent' belief.
While I believe its true they learned this from their parents, it doesn't change anything from the
black childs perspective. And without some life changing experience, they are likely to grow up like
my wifes cousin and carry a 'nigger skinning knife'. 


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:14:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:14:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: troll optimization on the TML
Message-ID: <memo.572868@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <200208030048.LYB01066@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
> Mex, you need to have Fly run around the parade ground until 
> you get tired...

Now THERE's a Good Idea :-)

"Flykiller, front and centre!"

Mexal.
formerly Sergeant, 22nd (Cheshire) Regiment, British Army.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:14:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:14:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <memo.572869@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <B97089CA.67857%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
> But this is the TML, and one supposes that in the 57th century, the 
> measure
> of a sophont's fitness for a particular duty is tied to their ability to
> perform it.  One may assume that the Imperium establishes baseline
> requirements for, say an MOS, and holds to those standards regardless of
> race or gender.  This may result in a higher proportion of males in a
> particular MOS, perhaps females in another.

Indeed, that is how it should be. If a task demands physical strength or 
endurance, then you pick people with those qualitities. If the task 
requires mental agility or specific academic training, you chose someone 
who has it (or, in the case of training, who has the base ability to 
benefit from being given that training, if you have the time!).

Some things you can work around. For example, I am intolerant of cold. By 
now, I am very good at keeping myself warm! Surprised my students last 
winter, I never appeared chilly, while they were all huddled in their 
overcoats first thing on Mondays in an outlying hut that isn't heated. But 
female teachers who wear long flowing skirts can hide a multitude of 
things (like long underwear!!!) :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:15:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:15:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <memo.572870@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020802195559.46a76b08@pop.mindspring.com>
To answer your questions.

> >Me! Me! Pick me!
> 
> 1. Are you nuts?

Yes.

> 2. Really nuts?

Yes. Do I have to repeat myself?

> 3. Can you lie perfectly still while an enemy soldier urinates on you?

You think I want to move around?
 
> 4. As in #4, but it is a National Guardsman during a training mission.

And?

> 5. Do you stand and remove your hat when you hear GnySgt Carlos Hathcock
> mentioned?

Of course, don't you?

> 6. Do you believe in your heart of hearts that there is no such thing as
> friendly artillery?

Yes.
 
> 7. When walking in open areas, do you automatically check sight lines 
> and
> exfil routes?

Naturally. Doesn't everyone?
 
> 8. Do you refer to your wife as your spotter?

Nope. I don't refer to him as my wife :-)

> 9. Do you/Did you make every target at 300 meters but miss the 50 meter 
> ones?

Well, I usually hit both sets...

> 10. We mean it, are you *really* nuts?

You haven't noticed yet?

> If you answered yes to all these questions, you might have what it 
> takes.
> Just send Cr 20 and 10 7.62mm shell casings to:
> 
> Sniping for Dummies
> c/o ACQ Weapons
> Box 26, Gridlore Complex
> Lunion Up #3
> Lunion/Lunion/Spinward Marches

Mexal (not sniper-trained - in the British Army they only accept right 
handers... Grrr.)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:16:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:16:40 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes
Message-ID: <memo.572871@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <4957.64.8.3.28.1028349006.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
IMTU, the Imperium taxes its member planets. How that planet chooses to 
raise the money to meet the Imperial tax bill is up to them.

Most just hike their own income tax a fraction of a percent. 

Some, especially those who are lukewarm about their membership, charge a 
separate 'Imperial Tax' to make the point that people are being charged 
for the privilege.

Some levy the tax on what they perceive as being the benefits of belonging 
to the Imperium, such as interstellar trade.

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <39.2b0d8fbb.2a7d17c6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001401c23ae8$dcdeae40$0905bd50@martinjd>

> circles around the vast majority of the females I've seen, no
exaggeration.

On the flip side, two of my friends (female friends) are more determined and
in absolute terms more capable than half the men in our martial arts class.
They're better than many who hold higher grades. They'd be barred under your
rules.

>that's not damning women, and that's not prejudice.

Deciding the fate of half the human race - pre-judging their capabilities -
becuase of gender. Nah, that's notuing like prejudice.

Of course, the poor dears can't be expected to understand politics, manage
an estate or run a business either. Any you know? they couldn't do it. Not
until someone let them try.





From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:19:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:19:08 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208021045440.12501-100000@shell.tsoft.com> <3D4BC838.3C66EE32@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <002901c23ae9$3da4d9c0$0905bd50@martinjd>

>
> Children can be particularly cruel. Seeing a crowd of 'redneck' children
(~8 yo) calling a black
> child Nigger and attacking that child with rocks cured me of the 'children
are innocent' belief.
> While I believe its true they learned this from their parents, it doesn't
change anything from the
> black childs perspective. And without some life changing experience, they
are likely to grow up like
> my wifes cousin and carry a 'nigger skinning knife'.

They can. OC, it's easy to be cruel to someone you've dehumanized, or
watched your parents dehumanize.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:26:02 2002
Subject: JTAS Contest (was: Re: [TML] warship optimization in traveller)
References: <20020802182504.13132.61928.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <3D4AE7C4.85DCBD6E@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <3D4BCB8A.4E223775@mindspring.com>

David Shayne wrote:
> 
> > Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 20:07:38 +0300
> > From: john.groth@us.army.mil
<snip>
> >
> > [**] For those who would like to participate, just go to the
> > Starship/Vehicle Design discussion board on JTAS.  Not a subscriber?
> > Why not?  It's only $15 US per two years for biweekly issues and access
> > to archives, discussion boards and Brubek's chat room.  [And if you
> > mention that aurictech referred you, I get a free month added to _my_
> > subscription! ;-)]
> 
> Ignore this blatant self promotion and tell them davidshayne sent you.
> 
> :)
> 
> > http://jtas.sjgames.com/subscribe/

No, no. Tell them Alan Spik sent you. I'll name a ship in Glistens 100th Fleet after you. Remember
you heard that offer here first. ;p


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:27:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:27:04 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
Message-ID: <004301c23aea$9c802fc0$0905bd50@martinjd>

Just a reminder that there's stuff on the Citizens website.


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-to-the-Masses
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <004901c23aea$d61edba0$0905bd50@martinjd>

Go take a look at CotI, under "my fellow Citizens", for something
interesting.


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-to-the-Masses
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:29:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:29:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <001401c23ae8$dcdeae40$0905bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3D4C752C.26063.37AF39@localhost>

On 3 Aug 2002, at 13:25, MJ Dougherty wrote:

> Of course, the poor dears can't be expected to understand politics, manage an
> estate or run a business either. Any you know? they couldn't do it. Not until
> someone let them try.

"Women have a sort "decorative" function, rather like teapots; and you 
wouldn't expect a teapot to go around making decisions now would you?"

[Can anyone place the quote?]

ObTrav: Not a sausage that I can see.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:31:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:31:05 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <004f01c23aea$fc955ac0$0905bd50@martinjd>

also see http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/writing.html


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-to-the-Masses
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <112.1523c9f7.2a7c50e1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4BCDB5.17057FCA@mindspring.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> 
>  >In the active service I've know many fine female sailors who were competent
>  >technicians and fine seaman. And more than a few who were more competent
>  >leaders than many of the critics who bemoaned the posting of woman to ships.
> 
> I've seen a handful.  Offsetting this, I've seen companies where every single
> corporal  and several sergeants get busted down for sex with the female
> privates.  I've seen active duty females refuse orders to perform physical
> tasks (like dumping trash cans) and tell sergeants to their face to "get a
> male to do it".  I've seen females who cannot, and I mean cannot, pass their
> limited physical fitness tests, who can't do  even seven pushups, but who
> still remain in units.  I've seen females who cannot climb the ladder from
> the shaft alley to the second deck and who have to be helped.  I've seen
> females finish their expensive training and then promptly be discharged
> because they're pregnant.
> 
> Whatever benefits they bring I think are outweighed by the negatives.  I'd
> dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their
> traditional roles of nurse and clerk.  If the US military is so hard-up for
> warm bodies that it really needs females, then I say reinstitute the WACS and
> WAVES and whatever else, with their own standards and their own chain of
> command, and put them in charge of stateside facilities like hospitals and
> supply depots and personnel offices so men are freed up for more forward
> duties.

While seeing some of the same things in the early 80's, I saw very dedicated and professional women
also.
I think the real fix would be for the Sgt/PO. to issue a report chit on any female who refused an
order. The 'one' women in my shop who tried this on me wound up with 15 days extra duty and an
extreme hatred of me. But she didn't try it again in my presence. Of course she didn't offer sex to
get out of work. ;p Maybe being in the RP had something to do with it.

-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prejudice (OT)
Message-ID: <116.14e786df.2a7d2ad1@aol.com>

 >>  I'd
 >>  >> > dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their
 >>  >> > traditional roles of nurse and clerk.
 >
 >>I don't think recognition of a general trend of experience is prejudice.
 >
 >You've just stated that you'd deny every single woman who wanted to and
 >could be good enough, the chance to try to be what she wanted, on the basis
 >of your - by definition limited - experience. Maybe not prejudice, but I
 >don't have a word for it.

I'm not the only one with this limited experience.  But I don't have a word 
for it either.  

One finds precisely this same discrimination against 40 year olds.  Some can 
handle it, sure, but 40 year olds can't join because enough of them have 
sufficient problems that it's just not worth it to the army to sort through 
it.  One finds similar discrimination against prior-service -- they do their 
best to keep you out, I know from personal experience, and if you do get back 
in you get _no_ breaks.  I don't have a problem with either form of 
discrimination because I know each deals with a certain problem set, and I'm 
saying that a similar sort of problem set exists in females in the military. 
Does this damn 40 year olds?  Does this damn women?

 >I believe in absolute standards - good enough for the combat area is the
 >same for everyone, and yes, more men than women are. That's reality. But if
 >someone is good enough and actually wants to be there, then they have the
 >right to be.

There is no right to be in the military.

 >I have a 7stone, 5 foot woman in my self-defense class. She's not got any of
 >the right instincts, but she doggedly keeps on trying to learn because she
 >feels the need. She's small and weak, and quite honestly her capabilities
 >are poor for the foreseeable future. Potentially, though, she might be able
 >to develop real capability to protect herself., And she WANTS TO.
 >
 >Should I refuse to teach her because the chances of success are slim? I
 >think not.

And good heavens, I agree.  But joining the army is not the same.  The army 
needs people it can definitely train now, that it can depend on to be able to 
do certain things now, and that are tough enough to get it done now.  Most 
women don't meet some of those criteria, and bringing in large numbers of 
them in the hope that a few will rise to what is required is the same as 
bringing in a large number of 40 year olds in the hope that some of them will 
rise to what is required.  Whatever the gain here and there, the effort 
overall is counter-productive.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:49:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:49:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Meduim Navies
References: <3D4B1F7E.736A3F94@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3D4BD0E3.F1507CBD@mindspring.com>

Roseberry wrote:
> 
> This may have gotten lost in my last post and the minor flame spat
> going on, so I'll throw it out again and see if anyone bites.
> 
> What would the Imperuim see as the maximum allowable size, maximum
> allowable quantitative/qualitative weaponry, for a mercenary ship?
> 
> Presumabley they would frown on paws and meson guns, but would they
> allow big bay weapons?
> 
IMTU spinal mounts of any type and meson bays are in the same class 'weapons of mass destruction'
That said, registered mercenary units are able to get other types of bay weapons, as are papered
privateers. 


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <fc.1bc430d6.2a7d06b7@aol.com>
References: <fc.1bc430d6.2a7d06b7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020803224859.A16270@freeman.little-possums.net>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
>  >Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
>  >big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.
> 
> What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other sensor systems 
> you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?

Well, the problem is that even if you have literally thousands of
them, the nearest one will likely pass tens of thousands of kilometres
from the target.  So they need pretty good sensors, which means
significant cost and size.

Worse still, we're talking about insystem relative speeds which are
often on the order of megametres per second.  In a typical Traveller
space combat sequence, the ship gets a million kilometres away during
the combat round in which it is detected.  No mine can mount a direct
fire weapon with that range, so it has to power up some extreme
thrusters and play tag, or launch a missile which has thrusters.  More
cost and size.

At thirty gees, it can catch the ship in about two hours.  That sort
of endurance needs a damn good power source and possibly fuel, adding
yet more cost and size.

Unfortunately, it is also radiating a bucketload of power via its
thrusters, making it pretty easy to spot and subsequently shoot with
any basic point-defense the target might have.  It better have some
defensive features like armour or sandcasters, as well as a pretty
good agility.  And a good computer.  More cost and size.


By this point, you're talking about something that bears more
resemblance to an autonomous fighter than a mine.  Almost certainly
not something that you can scatter by the thousands in the hope that a
few might be able to hit something one day.

It could be done very effectively in GURPS, but I all the easy ways I
can think of use technology forbidden in the standard GURPS Traveller
universe.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 07:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 06:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] prejudice (OT)
References: <116.14e786df.2a7d2ad1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <009801c23af1$c17b2e40$0905bd50@martinjd>

> Does this damn 40 year olds?  Does this damn women?

You said you'd do it. I felt strongly enough that you shouldn't that I used
that word.

>
>  >I believe in absolute standards - good enough for the combat area is the
>  >same for everyone, and yes, more men than women are. That's reality. But
if
>  >someone is good enough and actually wants to be there, then they have
the
>  >right to be.
>
> There is no right to be in the military.

Okay. "I believe that people have the basic right to self-determination. If
the military exists and some people want to be in it, they have the right to
try to meet its absolute standards and if they do, to be accepted. IE the
right not to be debarred from service on the grounds of a generalization."

Is that better?


>
> And good heavens, I agree.  But joining the army is not the same.  The
army
> needs people it can definitely train now, that it can depend on to be able
to
> do certain things now, and that are tough enough to get it done now.  Most
> women don't meet some of those criteria, and bringing in large numbers of
> them in the hope that a few will rise to what is required is the same as
> bringing in a large number of 40 year olds in the hope that some of them
will
> rise to what is required.  Whatever the gain here and there, the effort
> overall is counter-productive.

I don't really disagree. But you said you're remove all of them and their
right to try to be what they want. I can't agree with that. I want effective
people in the military and anyone who isn't should be washed out. But I do
not belive that you can simply generalize a segment of the populace out of
the military, becuase I know that at least a proportion of them will be good
enough.

I notice that you're "done here" about the fleet thing. From where I'm
sitting, that seems to mean you've dismissed all the arguments I raised and
decided that you don't need to think about them. You still haven't
adequately explained what you mean to do about an enemy that won't give you
that pre-arranged setpiece. Or in any other "real war" situation either.

In fact, all you've actually said is "there will be a set-piece and I will
win it. All else is trivial".
Nice theory. Doesn't work, but it's nice.







From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 07:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 06:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Firearms in Vacumn
References: <20803.011715.6z8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3D4BD8C7.43D0D0AA@mindspring.com>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
>
> >>
> >> Do you still have any copies of The Model Rocketeer? Mine got lost a
> >> long time ago :-(
> >
> > I think so, I'll have a look next time I'm cleaning that part of the garage.
> > Anything in particular
> > or do you want that article on underwater launches?
> 
> Well, I'd like to have a set of the silly things, or at least a decent
> scan of them.
> 

Leonard, I don't mind scanning a few articles, but we're talking YEARS of issues(14 IIRC). I don't
have the time to scan them all, nor the inclination to give them up. I will however look for that
article.

-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 07:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 06:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"
References: <11c.14d66d9e.2a7ce27f@aol.com> <005301c23ad6$a4ab5760$1d17bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3D4BD9A0.DAF7946B@mindspring.com>

MJ Dougherty wrote:> 
> This sort of thing happens in war all the time. War is a tapestry of misery
> and suffering, most of it needless.
> 
> People demand that we go to do what must be done ( or sometimes protest
> about it and refuse to see why it must be done) then condemn the military
> when innocents get hurt.
> 
> The answer? Learn to get along and abolish conflict.
> Until then, we must accept the paradox and try to do the best we can not to
> cause needless suffering. But we will, all the same.
> That's why this world sucks.

If only it did suck. Unfortunately it blows. :( 


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 07:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 06:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonabo Class Missile Frigate
References: <c1.24afabf6.2a7d092f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4BDD16.BDE2D5BF@mindspring.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> 
>  Incidentally, it goes without saying that these things kill TL E- ships
>  quite nicely.
> 
> TL E is very vulnerable.  The meson screens and nuke dampers are weak.
> 
> I think this is a better design:
> 
> 1000 ton hull
> J4
> M6
> Armor4
> 100 ton missile bay (holds 100 salvos)
> etc
>

FWIW, in MT it states in the referees manual p74 that the ROF fro a missile bay is 2, ROF for
turrets is 1. Each launcher in a turret holds one missile(3 missiles per b/r per turret in the
battery), 100 dton bays hold 100 missiles(50 missiles per b/r), 50 dton bays hold 50 missiles(25
missiles per b/r). 

Storage of additional missiles costs 0.1 Kl@, weight goes up if you want magazines capable of
storing nuclear or antimatter missiles. It states that a 100 ton bay used as a magazine can hold
13500 missiles, but not launch them, meaning the gunners have to hump 50 missiles out of storage
after two shots of a hundred ton bay.
I also only allow them to store HE missiles in bays. 

Which is why I use dedicated magazines for any military ship that needs more than one or two battery
rounds. And why the PC's in my campaign bought a 50 b/r magazine for each missile turret. Not that
they've ever fired all 50 b/r's. I think the most they ever used in one engagement is 6 b/r's.

-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 07:41:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 06:41:53 2002
Subject: [TML] damning (OT)
Message-ID: <191.ae4ea8c.2a7d3751@aol.com>

 >>  >Yeah, and I've seen human beings who were skilled and competent and
 >>  >determined and motivated and just plain better than me being kept down
 >>  >because they were born female. You can't damn half the human race on a
 >>  >generality.
 >>
 >> "Damn"?
 >
 >Condemn to medicrity, to second-class citizenship, to be denied things that
 >they want for arbitrary reasons, despite their determination, talent and
 >potential.
 >
 >What you seem to want to do is to set limits for people.

I'm not the one setting them.

The Army (and by Army I mean all the branches) generally refuses to enlist 
any 40 year old male (unless they're a chaplain or a doctor).  Are there some 
40 year old males who could do just fine in the Army?  Yes.  Does refusing 
them entry condemn them to mediocrity, to second-class citizenship?  No.  
Does it limit their potential despite their determination and talent?  Yes, 
but there are other avenues for determination and talent.  Why does the Army 
do this?  Because 40 year olds, as a whole, have sufficient problems that the 
Army knows it will lose more in attempting to incorporate them than it will 
gain.

The Army's job is not to help people gain their potential, realize all their 
talents, grant citizenship or status, or provide a career track.  It is to 
wage war.  The large numbers of women who cannot measure up physically to the 
task, who become pregnant at sea and are shipped home leaving others to do 
their work, who load up the ranks as single mothers who are undeployable, 
outweigh the contributions of those women who perform as needed.  The only 
reason this has gone on for as long as it has is because the word has come 
down the chain:  "You will make this work.  There will be no problems."  But 
there are problems, serious problems with performance, reliability, 
deployability, and discipline, and to deny it is a disservice to the defense 
of the U.S.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 07:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 06:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] System Gen Help
Message-ID: <c9.261a11c4.2a7d38e2@aol.com>

 >> I am doing an extended system generation.  I rolled
 >> for #6 to be the max orbit.  I also rolled for 2
 >> captured planets.  One is in orbit 6.3 and the other
 >> is in 6.0
 >> 
 >> Orbit 6 and 5 are both SGG's.  4 is the mainworld and
 >> the habitable zone.
 >> 
 >> Is this legitimate?  Or do I need to move the captured
 >> planet in orbit 6.0 to somewhere else.
 >
 >I don't know of any written rule to cover this (someone speak  up
 >if they know of one)

Book six says to place captured planets where you roll them, in disregard of 
any other pre-existing system feature.  Makes sense.

If a captured planet is in a gas giant's orbit though then it should become a 
moon or impact the gas giant eventually, or perhaps eventually be thrown out 
of orbit away from or towards the star.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 07:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 06:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <26.2ba24f20.2a7d3a88@aol.com>

 >> >Has anyone noted the set up with regards to the number of starports that
 >>  >can produce starships versus those that can only builld system ships?
 And
 >>  >to make matters worse, there aren't that many high tech star ports
 around
 >>
 >> I have.  It does make a big difference, doesn't it?  "If my ships are
 cheaper
 >> I'll be able to build more of them!"  No you can't.
 >
 >
 >See above comment that HG/TCS does not adequately provide a realistic naval
 >warfare system. But it is a cool game.

How does one create a "realistic warfare system" with technology that doesn't 
actually exist?  If a given system is simply consistent and workable then 
that should provide many opportunities.  Yes, it is a cool game.  Now if I 
could just get someone to play ....

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] damning (OT)
References: <191.ae4ea8c.2a7d3751@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001001c23af8$d8a53000$bf10bd50@martinjd>

>  >
>  >What you seem to want to do is to set limits for people.
>
> I'm not the one setting them.

You said you'd remove all females from the services. How's that different
from setting a limit?

> The Army's job is not to help people gain their potential, realize all
their
> talents, grant citizenship or status, or provide a career track.

Never said it was.

>It is to
> wage war.

Yes.

>The large numbers of women who cannot measure up physically to the
> task, who become pregnant at sea and are shipped home leaving others to do
> their work, who load up the ranks as single mothers who are undeployable,
> outweigh the contributions of those women who perform as needed.

Perhaps. So we need a better system, better screening. We also need to get
rid of the men who join up and then smuggle drugs across the Canadian border
in their trucks, and all the others who don't come up to scratch. But once
you start dismissing whole segements of the population on arbitary
distinctions then you deny people the opportunity to be the best. Heck, the
potential savior of our nation (s) could be even now be being turned away at
a recruiting station because she's a girl.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"
References: <11c.14d66d9e.2a7ce27f@aol.com> <005301c23ad6$a4ab5760$1d17bd50@martinjd> <3D4BD9A0.DAF7946B@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c23af9$02c7a020$bf10bd50@martinjd>

> >
> > The answer? Learn to get along and abolish conflict.
> > Until then, we must accept the paradox and try to do the best we can not
to
> > cause needless suffering. But we will, all the same.
> > That's why this world sucks.
>
> If only it did suck. Unfortunately it blows.


And sometimes makes strange inexplicable grinding sounds like a damaged
washing machine. But it's the one we got...



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <26.2ba24f20.2a7d3a88@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002e01c23afa$280d7200$bf10bd50@martinjd>

>  >
>  >See above comment that HG/TCS does not adequately provide a realistic
naval
>  >warfare system. But it is a cool game.
>
> How does one create a "realistic warfare system" with technology that
doesn't
> actually exist?  If a given system is simply consistent and workable then
> that should provide many opportunities.  Yes, it is a cool game.  Now if I
> could just get someone to play ....

Rephrasing... TCS/HG does not create an environment that I can reconcile
with a believable setting.

As a naval analyst of sorts I can look at your HG/TCS setup from the point
of view of a real war and say "that's going to come apart very quickly".
That's the thing about wargames... they're not about warfighting, they're
about winning within the constraints of the game and rules.

That's fine, but when you try to apply the conclusions from TCS/HG to the
Traveller universe, it does not create a believable setting.

To put that another way, if the Imperium simply said "we'll build a
battle-only fleet. Any conflict will be won in a decisive clash and all else
is trivial" then they'd not be there in Year 100, let alone 1100.





From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] damning (OT)
References: <191.ae4ea8c.2a7d3751@aol.com> <001001c23af8$d8a53000$bf10bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <003801c23afa$49145720$bf10bd50@martinjd>

This has gone on too long, and too far off-topic. 

I'm unilaterally dropping the discussion in the interests of bandwidth.



Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-to-the-Masses
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/





From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The IN in the OTU
Message-ID: <003901c23afa$8f883aa0$bf10bd50@martinjd>

Maybe worth mentioning at this point that all T20 products operate from the
standpoint that fighters are trivial things designed for traffic control,
screening and escort duty. Big ships fight and kill big ships, with the
occasional funky exception.



Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-to-the-Masses
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <200208031427.LZC00036@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Douglas E. Berry"
>1. Are you nuts?
 I'm not hardcore, I'm stupid.

>2. Really nuts?
 You bet!

>3. Can you lie perfectly still while an enemy soldier 
>urinates on you?

Gee, and I thought that this only happened to me!

>4. As in #4, but it is a National Guardsman during a 
>training mission.

No, it was two scouts from the 187th.

>5. Do you stand and remove your hat when you hear GnySgt 
>Carlos Hathcock mentioned?

Yes.
>6. Do you believe in your heart of hearts that there is no 
>such thing as friendly artillery?

I don't trust tac air, either.

>7. When walking in open areas, do you automatically check 
>sight lines and exfil routes?

When my daughter and I walk in the woods in a new place, I 
ask her to tell me where the natural lines of drift are - 
then we don't walk there.

>8. Do you refer to your wife as your spotter?
No, that's my daughter.

>9. Do you/Did you make every target at 300 meters but miss 
>the 50 meter ones?

Yes..  and there's an odd area for me at 700 to 800 meters 
where I get iffy - then I'm OK out to 1200.

>10. We mean it, are you *really* nuts?
You should ask the people I served with.

________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:29:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:29:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re: max hull size
Message-ID: <200208031428.LZC00116@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Matthew Bond says
>Briefly?
>
>When did MT come out? '86 wasn't it? Thats 6 years. HG1 was 
>only out for a year or so. HG1 was published in '79 and HG2 
>in '80.

I'm sorry - I meant HG1 was out briefly.  I think it may have 
been as short as six months.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Fighter Jockettes
Message-ID: <8b.1bef55bd.2a7d449c@aol.com>

>More than a theory actually.  The number of women being trained 
>as fighter pilots continues to climb, and there are many predictions 
>that the number of female fighter pilots will surpass the number of 
>male fighter pilots in not all that many years.  Women in general 
>are shorter, lighter, and have better resistance to g forces (ie they 
>don't black out as quickly) all of which are very useful qualities in 
>modern fighter aircraft. 


The Soviets used women as fighter pilots (and tank crew, and snipers, and 
other things) during WWII and had no complaints. 

One of my favorite anecdotes is the German pilot who was shot down after a 
long "knights of the air"-style duel near an airfield in late 42 or early 43. 
He parachuted safely ot the ground, was rounded up by security, and demanded 
to meet the pilot who had shot him down so he could shake "his" hand. 
According to witnesses he did not believe it when introduced to her, and only 
after she described the fight to him in detail ("You did X, so then I 
side-slipped right and did Y") did he come to attention and salute. Frank 
Chadwick told me he once saw a painting of the scene showing a 
crestfallen-looking German staring at the beaming Soviet woman using her 
hands to re-create the fight, in the style of pilots everywhere and 
every-time.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <200208031448.LZD00692@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Flykiller says
>if paratroopers land nearby then I think it becomes clear 
>that what your MOS is and what your actual job is are two 
>different things.  

This occurs far less often than you think -- and when it 
does, the strategic effects are far smaller and last far 
shorter than is commonly believed.  Combat elements that land 
in the enemy's rear will make mincemeat of non-combat units 
even if the defenders are men.  And the defender's combat 
units will be attracted to the incursion rather quickly.

If one side has a tech level advantage, and numeric 
superiority, I think that it will not happen to the superior 
side at all.

________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <200208031451.LZD00838@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

MJ Dougherty says
>Hey, everyone, he invoked Clif!
>
>Clif has been Invoked!

Hey!  Don't do that!  That's a second invocation!  You know 
what happens if you do it three times!
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
Message-ID: <200208031455.LZD00963@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

john.groth says
>Passive sensors IRL would have ranges in space significanly 
>better than those of active sensors such as radar.
>

I would point out, however, that all such reliance on 
technology may be subject to local conditions.  I managed to 
approach within 50 meters of consultants using their thermal 
pointer (something that detects people moving within 500 
meters of an armored vehicle - I think it's installed on the 
Challenger tank).

Mind you, I was using an umbrella to crawl behind.  They 
couldn't spot me visually, either.  I took a page from German 
tactics in camouflage.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 09:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 08:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <19b.65b1e1c.2a7d49d4@aol.com>

 >Okay. The Zhos have thrown large numbers of light cruisers and "merchant
 >raiders" (armed merchant ships posing as legitimate traffic) across the
 >border and are raiding lightly defended ports, shooting up your logistics
 >train and the Sector Duke is yelling at you that dozens of world governments
 >are yelling at HIM for protection. Many of these raids are by ships in the
 >light or even heavy cruiser class. Some sightings mention capital ships and
 >small task groups. They've probably got support ships out there somewhere
 >too.

Ah, a general overall fleet attack.  You describe a situation some weeks 
after it has begun.  I think my scouts would give me a more accurate picture, 
and sooner.  I will send a message to Deneb to send a fleet.

What is the status of his fleet at Cipango and Cronor?  If he has that much 
out in my areas, then his central fleet is weakened.  If I can put two task 
forces each on Cipango and maybe Ninjar then _his_ logistics train will be 
cut entirely, and they'll provide a welcoming committee to any Zhodie ships 
that straggle back home looking for support.  Further I'll send the fleet 
raider task force to shoot up whatever they can in other worlds in that area. 
 Two can play this game, only I'll do it with concentrated task forces.  Let 
the consule at Cronor yell at _his_ commander:  "There are a thousand 
frigates at Querion!  Do something!"

I'll leave Jewell exposed and do that.  Then I'll send out some of my task 
forces individually to locate and mop up these isolated forces, using an 
extensive scout network to relay information on their activities and ship 
counts.  I'll plot their courses and attempt to determine where they want to 
go.  Not that this would be hard to guess anyway -- I'm sure the Zhodies will 
bypass Pscias and go for Rethe if they can.

 >Zho fleet elements have struck at weak targets on the border, but you don't
 >know it they retired afterward or are advancing.

Assume they're advancing.

 >Your intelligence is a mess of vessel reports,

This can be sorted out.  It may take a few hours, but I'm sure my staff is 
efficient.

 >and while the attacks on
 >minor worlds are trivial from a military standpoint, those are imperial
 >citizens being shot up.

Yes.  They will have to wait.  Soon it will be the Zhodies turn to be shot up.

 >Some border  worlds (again, soft targets) have been
 >assaulted by ground forces and may now be under occupation. The sector duke
 >wants those worlds retaken. He wants the raids stopped.

Everything in due time.  The Duke will have to be a big boy.  And likely he 
is.  When the Zhodie fleet has been rolled back, I'll send in the troop 
transports.  Not until then.

You're trying to make me panic.  I won't.  If the Zhodies have scattered a 
lot of their fleet through my sector then I'll roll them up one at a time 
with my task forces at no risk to myself.  It'll take a while, but it will be 
done.  Zhodane is mostly at tech 14, and tech 14 wallows in the mud against 
tech 15.  I've tried every possible Zhodie fleet combination against the 
Spinward Marches fleet that I can think of, pitting 7 AE worlds against what 
Mora and Trin can build, and his only chance is to stick together.

Instead, I will make the Zhodies panic.  In 500 years the Imperium has never 
taken offensive action against the Zhodane.  The Imperium has always reacted, 
defended, retreated, lost worlds.  I'll make the Zhodies defend and react to 
me.  I will cut their lines, sit astride their repair facilities, and put 
capital ships where they have not been for 500 years, forcing the Zhodies to 
come to me.  Riverland and Cronor used to be Imperial.  I will have them 
back.  When the Imperial Fleet reinforcements arrive, I just might get them.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 09:07:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 08:07:04 2002
Subject: [TML] 40-year olds
Message-ID: <200208031505.LZD01427@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Flykiller says
>Why does the Army do this?  Because 40 year olds, as a 
>whole, have sufficient problems that the Army knows it will 
>lose more in attempting to incorporate them than it will 
>gain.

No, no, no.  The reason the Army won't enlist you is because 
the "useful lifetime" of the older soldier is shorter.  Not 
because you can't pass the PT test.  Training is an expense - 
and once they spend the money, they expect a useful time 
period after that, including reserve time.

Most Delta Force soldiers are between the ages of 35 and 40.  
The Army does not have a problem with age as it pertains to 
performance.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 09:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 08:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <63.f7e6699.2a7d4cf9@aol.com>

 >Modern war - 4th generation war - is fought in the living rooms of the
 >populace. Manipulating them is one of the keys to victory. Give them enough
 >uncountered threats, enough needless deaths, and they'll be demanding peace.

And that will work in my favor, as much of the Spinward Population lives in 
the highly protected worlds of Trin, Mora, Glisten, Rhylanor, and Palique, 
and the main fleet is very close by to Rethe, Louzy, Lunion, Jewell, and 
Vilis.  That's almost half of the Spinward Marches on those planets alone.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 09:16:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sat Aug  3 08:16:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Lawyers (was: re:  sword vs shotgun)
In-Reply-To: <20020803025421.23615.36452.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020803025421.23615.36452.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <dosnku0ivbte9spq255ucevkii8dj0vp8s@4ax.com>

On Fri, 02 Aug 2002 19:54:21 -0700, "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
wrote:

>"Glenn M. Goffin" says
>>I have on many occasions in my career as a lawyer

>Often, I have marvelled at how some of the more intelligent 
>people I have met (successful intelligent people, that is) 
>have a carefully selected lawyer and a carefully selected 
>accountant.

>Most Traveller parties need a full time lawyer - but how many 
>have you seen with one? 

How many lawyers can practice on every planet the party will find itself on
- and how many parties would be able to afford a lawyer that could?

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 09:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 08:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lawyers (was: re:  sword vs shotgun)
Message-ID: <200208031521.LZD02133@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Jeff Zeitlin says
>How many lawyers can practice on every planet the party will 
>find itself on - and how many parties would be able to 
>afford a lawyer that could?
>

It's the end of the shift, and the prisoners shuffle up the 
tunnel, returning to the elevator that brought them down to 
the working face eighteen hours ago.

Near the end of the column of hapless men, John says, "Oh, 
Jeff?  Remind me again about how you didn't think that we 
could afford a lawyer to handle that mercenary contract?"

A guard shouts, "Quiet in the ranks!"
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 09:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 08:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <98.29de0498.2a7d4f0e@aol.com>

 >You're thniking of everything in terms of a mapboard and counters. I'm
 >discussing warfare.

I'm thinking in terms of what the actually constructed vessels will do 
according to the rules, yes.  You are thinking in terms of imagining what you 
think various effects will be.  I'll take the hardware -- such as it is -- 
and I'll have the last word.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 09:23:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 08:23:55 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <19b.65b1e1c.2a7d49d4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <005601c23b03$2b455560$bf10bd50@martinjd>

>
> Ah, a general overall fleet attack.  You describe a situation some weeks
> after it has begun.  I think my scouts would give me a more accurate
picture,
> and sooner.  I will send a message to Deneb to send a fleet.

No, just raiders and "crumbling". No major fleet movements just yet. Though
attempts have been made to look like the fleet is advancing....

>
> What is the status of his fleet at Cipango and Cronor?

Still there.

>If he has that much
> out in my areas, then his central fleet is weakened.  If I can put two
task
> forces each on Cipango and maybe Ninjar then _his_ logistics train will be
> cut entirely, and they'll provide a welcoming committee to any Zhodie
ships
> that straggle back home looking for support.

He's got cruiers and light commerce raiders in your space for the most part.
No fleet. Now his fleet can mass against your cutoff task forces, and smash
them with local superiority.

F>urther I'll send the fleet
> raider task force to shoot up whatever they can in other worlds in that
area.
>  Two can play this game, only I'll do it with concentrated task forces.
Let
> the consule at Cronor yell at _his_ commander:  "There are a thousand
> frigates at Querion!  Do something!"

You have a fleet raider task force? I thought you just had battleships. And
of course he can commit his fleet (held back after the initial deception
raid) against your raiders, or the cutoff squadrons. No fear of not being
able to find them, since they're concentrated and hitting predicatble
targets.

>
> I'll leave Jewell exposed and do that.  Then I'll send out some of my task
> forces individually to locate and mop up these isolated forces, using an
> extensive scout network to relay information on their activities and ship
> counts.

Yopu'll disperse your fleet to chase moving ghosts. Yes please.

>I'll plot their courses and attempt to determine where they want to
> go.  Not that this would be hard to guess anyway -- I'm sure the Zhodies
will
> bypass Pscias and go for Rethe if they can.

Part of the trick in commerce raiding is to move semi-randomly.

>
>  >Zho fleet elements have struck at weak targets on the border, but you
don't
>  >know it they retired afterward or are advancing.
>
> Assume they're advancing.

Excellent.

>
>  >Your intelligence is a mess of vessel reports,
>
> This can be sorted out.  It may take a few hours, but I'm sure my staff is
> efficient.

No, I mean that there are similar vessels all over the place, dissimilar
ones too, your mass of scouts is losing ships and your intelligence is, as I
said, a mess. So is theirs, of course, but the point is that you don't know
where their fleet is.

>
>  >and while the attacks on
>  >minor worlds are trivial from a military standpoint, those are imperial
>  >citizens being shot up.
>
> Yes.  They will have to wait.  Soon it will be the Zhodies turn to be shot
up.

You'll ignore the nobles and the people shouting for something to be done?
Well, you can try. But what military has not been constrained by poitcal
pressure from within?
>
>  >Some border  worlds (again, soft targets) have been
>  >assaulted by ground forces and may now be under occupation. The sector
duke
>  >wants those worlds retaken. He wants the raids stopped.
>
> Everything in due time.  The Duke will have to be a big boy. And likely he
> is.  When the Zhodie fleet has been rolled back, I'll send in the troop
> transports.  Not until then.

I think thus pretty much shows me what I wanted to know. You're considering
the military dimension only here.

>
> You're trying to make me panic.  I won't.  If the Zhodies have scattered a
> lot of their fleet through my sector

No, they've sent their raider forces plus some old battleships trying to
look like a major force. Their fleet never actually advcanced, just raided
and fell back. It's rearmed and heading for your task forces I mentioned
above.

>then I'll roll them up one at a time
> with my task forces at no risk to myself.

See above. You'll chase them about with superior forces, weakening your main
fleet. You'll catch and kill some of them, but where's their main fleet?

>It'll take a while, but it will be
> done.  Zhodane is mostly at tech 14, and tech 14 wallows in the mud
against
> tech 15.  I've tried every possible Zhodie fleet combination against the
> Spinward Marches fleet that I can think of, pitting 7 AE worlds against
what
> Mora and Trin can build, and his only chance is to stick together.
>
> Instead, I will make the Zhodies panic.  In 500 years the Imperium has
never
> taken offensive action against the Zhodane.  The Imperium has always
reacted,
> defended, retreated, lost worlds.  I'll make the Zhodies defend and react
to
> me.  I will cut their lines, sit astride their repair facilities, and put
> capital ships where they have not been for 500 years, forcing the Zhodies
to
> come to me.  Riverland and Cronor used to be Imperial.  I will have them
> back.  When the Imperial Fleet reinforcements arrive, I just might get
them.

You'll plunge into their space and attack? That's the thing that'll get you
the decisive action you wanted. Of course, their fleet was concentrated
after the initial raids, because I knew you wanted a decisive action and
this was the best way to get it. So now you're at the end of your supply
line, fighting his fleet *and* his local forces, with political problems and
logistics raiding in your rear.

Actually, I'd probably do the same. Point is, it's not a great position to
be in, though it does get you the initiative.

My point, though, is that you have a wargamer's contempt for political
issues and "intangible compplicaitons". If the sector Duke can't afford to
ignore politicval pressure, he'll lean on you, and you'll end up being
forced to do things you don't want. This is the reality of strategy - it's
only partially military.

Your model works fine in isolation, but IMO it falls down in the face of the
sort of thing that happens in real wars - friction, political necessity etc.

In other words, we're talking about two entirely different situations. I'm
discussing defending a hypothetical sector from equally hypothetical (but
real for the purposes of the exercise) interstellar fleets, and you're
playing High Guard.

I don't think we can accept one another's assumptions, so the exercise is
pointless..







From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 09:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 08:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <73.238e7d1c.2a7d54c4@aol.com>

 >The feint/outfeint is one of the risks of war. I may be willing to fight
 >your six with mine, and trust to my ships and crews to win it for me

So we're down from achieving local superiority with feints to trusting your 
ships.

 >As to a dumb enemy... fair comment. I've heard the "enemy" make a number of
 >sweeping pronounbcements of the "oh, I'd just" that make me confident that
 >once reality intruded, friction would render this enemy less capable than he
 >thinks.

Well, I'd just have to see that I have twelve ships and a nearby repair base 
to your six exposed, and I'd just have to struggle along making the best of 
it.

In truth, I don't know what you mean by "feint".  HG doesn't seem to have 
much scope for maneuver -- the fleets are just there, at long or short range. 
 If you mean by jumping out and then jumping back then I can see that, but 
does the book say whether or not you can determine jump distance and 
direction from watching the (I'm sure) considerable EM signature of the jump? 
 I know it doesn't in 2 or 5 or 6, or what navigation times are, or anything.

The fact of the matter is that if a fleet tries to be strong everywhere it 
will be weak everywhere, and the enemy will be able to concentrate and just 
roll on in.  Gathering up the scattered fleet to face this concentration 
would take months, and in the meantime the invader would wander around 
unchecked.  It seems to me that whether the defender is scattered or 
concentrated the invader has the advantage in either circumstance, and 
there's nothing to be done about except to attempt to close or to invade 
_him_.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes
In-Reply-To: <4957.64.8.3.28.1028349006.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <4957.64.8.3.28.1028349006.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <m37kj7exgi.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

hal@buffnet.net writes:
> 
> In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head tax" or does it
> charge an income tax on its citizens for its Imperial Budget
> requirements?  In short, if the Imperial government taxes 10% of a
> Gross Planetary Product, then it would in essence be an income tax.
> If it charges a flat 500 CR per person on a planet, then it is a
> head tax.  Which is it?

I like a head tax, but that's ;ause I like em in real life as well.  

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Modern art is what happens when painters stop looking at girls and
persuade themselves that they have a better idea.    --John Ciardi

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOELACEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOELACEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <m33ctvexcp.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net> writes:
> 
> > But I'm certainly no expert on gender differences.
> 
> To paraphrase my late father, no man is.

Or can reasonably hope to be...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Every man, woman, and responsible child has a natural, fundamental,
and inalienable human, individual, civil, and Constitutional right
(within the limits of the Non-Aggression Principle) to obtain, own,
and carry, openly or concealed, any weapon--handgun, shotgun, rifle,
machinegun, anything--any time, anywhere, without asking anyone's
permission.                                       --L. Neil Smith

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
Message-ID: <F4088vi4IdT87AtHRip00025342@hotmail.com>

From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>

    "Just a reminder that there's stuff on the Citizens website."


Sir,

     Okay, I'll bite, you pseudo-spammed [  8^)  ] us with three messages 
about the CotI website so it must be important...
     What's the big announcement/product release/article/whatever that's 
been posted over there?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in traveller)
In-Reply-To: <199.acd8aa3.2a7cea81@aol.com>
References: <199.acd8aa3.2a7cea81@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3y9bndi8f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
>
> > That kind of setup might be cheap when it came to starship life
> > support costs, but I imagine the impact on the soldiers' psyches
> > would be extreme.
> 
> Not if they were only asleep during jumps.  "Good morning, we're
> passing through Regina and the captain decided you should all spend
> some money there for a few days."  And soldiers won't be spending
> years on ships anyway--they'll only be there when in transport.
> Kind of hard to practice armored maneuvers on the mess deck.

No, 'cause they'd still not get the full rest needed.  My
greatgrandfather and grandfather took well over a month to return to
the US after WWI & WWII; my father was back in college in 48 or so
hours after his time in Vietnam.  Granted, that's _some_ rest time,
but it's not nearly enough.  You don't find as much PTSD in fellows
who got to slowly make their way back home, adjust to the new reality
&c.; you find quite a lot in guys who are plucked up from one
situation and dropped in another.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Virtues foster one another; so too, vices.  Bad English kills trees,
consumes energy, and befouls the Earth.  Good English renews it.
                                  --The Underground Grammarian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <200208031455.LZD00963@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208031455.LZD00963@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <m3u1mbdi0l.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:
> 
> Mind you, I was using an umbrella to crawl behind.  They couldn't
> spot me visually, either.  I took a page from German tactics in
> camouflage.

Oh, so you _weren't_ wearing a bright blue coat and bright red pants?
However did you retain your lan?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Gun control: the theory that a woman found raped and strangled in an
alley is morally superior to a woman explaining why her attacker got a
fatal bullet wound.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <3D4C0537.C9A63C5E@ameritech.net>

> From: Flykiller@aol.com
> Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 03:57:07 EDT
>
> I'm afraid we've been talking two different systems.  I've been 
> talking CT HG1, but everyone seems to be talking about something 
> else.  CT HG1 only distinguishes between hull sizes on to-hit 
> adjustments, not hull types. 

The hull type is a roll to penetrate defence. It's not a to hit 
modifier.

> I'm afraid I don't know HG2, or for that matter any of the others, 
> and it seems HG1 has been deprecated.

HG2 is also for CT. It replaced HG1 in 1980 (one year after the 
introduction of HG1) and is considered the definitive version.

Hey list mom is this in the faq?

> Yeah, see in HG1 a factor 9 meson cannot penetrate any meson
> screen of 3 or higher, and any capital ship is going to have 
> meson screen 9.

It's the same in HG2.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
In-Reply-To: <sd495bcc.012@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
References: <sd495bcc.012@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
Message-ID: <02080118161500.01437@linux>

On Thursday 01 August 2002 04:03 pm, you wrote:
> Would a world that has 80% of its surface covered by water, a dense
> nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, and one moon that is large enough to exert a
> tidal effect tend to be more or less climatically active? Assume
> moderate (terran-normal) vulcanism and a fairly non-polluting early TL
> aqua/agricultural society. Also assume standard polar ice caps and
> rotation around 20 deg. off the plane of the ecliptic. I'll welcome any
> and all comments...

	It seems to me that axial tilt would be of greatest concern or possibly land 
distributions and the resulting distribution of albedoes not to mention 
affecting wind/ocean currents.
	Aren't there reasonable tools on the net for running a simulation of this?
Can the old program Simearth be used to test world setups? If not then maybe 
someone could be kind enough to fill this gap in ref tools ala starform. And 
could that someone make it compile/run under linux please?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:34:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:34:05 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <d7.1b1aa813.2a792099@aol.com>
References: <d7.1b1aa813.2a792099@aol.com>
Message-ID: <02080119251701.01437@linux>

>
> I have to say I'm in favor of the "simple kludge".  this is, after all, a
> fantasy role-playing game.  most of the technology being discussed doesn't
> exist and isn't even on the horizon.  I don't think "realism" carries much
> weight in such an environment.  you're supposed to adventure, not engineer.

	I agree with you that this is a RPG and realism doesn't carry much weight 
really...so why not play dnd instead?
	To be honest, I really don't 'play' the game but I like to tinker with it as 
a simulation and thus I like to try to make it more accurate. That is how I 
enjoy Traveller. I know that many aspects of it have no analog in the real 
world, but the aspects that do match, should match the RW as close as is 
possible if it can be done without sacrificng playability.
	To do otherwise would to make   many threads on the TML as a pile of 
steaming jgdkkf . To me, this is no different than arguing about guass gun 
muzzle velocities or the best way of disposing of bodies.
	Sorry...this is how I am.

btw.......Imperial nobles IMHO can be modelled after the Catholic Church of 
the middle ages. 
	Pope=Emperor
	Bishops, Arch-Bishops, Cardinals...etc= Various high nobles
	fathers,priests ...etc= lower nobles
The held massive amounts of power without holding the reigns of any single 
country. Yet no king would dare go against the Pope in those days.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:34:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:34:55 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <001601c238a9$261f2900$7919bd50@martinjd>
References: <200207311448.LTP02792@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <001601c238a9$261f2900$7919bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <02080120122002.01437@linux>

> If you're scrambling to put together some kind of resistance to an attack,
> then immense-risk-of-death is acceptable to patriotic volunteers because
> they see it as the only way to win. If you're building a fleet in case you
> have to fight, then survivability is a requisite.
>
	Why not just determine if youd get volunteers using morale rules from 
striker or mt ref's companion (same  as each other really)?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
In-Reply-To: <F4088vi4IdT87AtHRip00025342@hotmail.com>
References: <F4088vi4IdT87AtHRip00025342@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <200208031245370897.51623A1B@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

>From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
>
>    "Just a reminder that there's stuff on the Citizens website."
>
>
>Sir,
>
>     Okay, I'll bite, you pseudo-spammed [  8^)  ] us with three messages 
>about the CotI website so it must be important...
>     What's the big announcement/product release/article/whatever that's 
>been posted over there?

I think he is just trying to draw attention to the new Traveller webzine we=
 have opened, rather than anything specific. We are looking for writers and=
 of course readers! It's free, and we are paying for article submissions=
 that are accepted for publication.

BTW, if anyone is attending GenCon this year, be sure to stop by the QLI=
 booth (#841). Marc will be there as our guest and we'll have copies of T20=
 Lite fresh off the presses!

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:46:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:46:55 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <20020801182132.8dc5803e76f94f1f98d7b72b3352174c.in@keywest.kennett.net>
References: <20020801182132.8dc5803e76f94f1f98d7b72b3352174c.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <02080312521500.00601@linux>

>
> FYI, the Brewster Buffalo has such a bad reputation because of its poor
> combat performance against the Japanese.  Yet we are talking about the same
> fighter that managed to beat the Grummen Wildcat in the US Navy's
> competition for a carrier fighter just before World War 2.  If Brewster had
> not proven so inept in actually building and upgrading the fighter, then we
> would be seeing Buffalos tangling with Zeros at Midway....
>

The Finns LOVED the Buffalo. They thought it did a wonderful job against the 
enemy. Brewster just went overboard in trying to improve it by adding more 
weapons and armour than it had power to carry. Also at that time our fighter 
tactics were poor while Japan had been parctising in China since 1937
The Zero was not that great of a plane. WEak guns and no armour. Its ailerons 
locked solid at over 220 mph. Great in a turning fight but lousy in anything 
else.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] PLSS duration
Message-ID: <3816d337dc90.37dc903816d3@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Monday, July 29, 2002 11:06 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] PLSS duration

> In mail you write:
> 
> > shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
> >> 
> >> The need to defecate is likely to be the limit.  Short of nanotech,
> >> dealing with that in a suit is a real pain.  Stay in the suit too
> >> long and you have to deal with a *nasty* case of diaper rash.
> >
> > Well, you could have a water-spray which cleans one--the water runs
> > down the legs and is vented from the feet.  Spray enough and 
> you'd be
> > clean.  I'll grant it'd take some getting used to, but if the
> > alternative is being toasted, I think most will take it.
> 
> "enough" is apt to be a lot more water than you can afford to 
> vent. And
> trust me, you *will* have stuff left behind on the way down. 
> 
> And you are assuming gravity, as well.

I wonder if a sort of mini-airlock could be devised to deal with the 
issue.  Although sitting in regular chairs might be a problem.... ;-)




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Junk in space
Message-ID: <3865583847de.3847de386558@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
Date: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 3:49 am
Subject: Re: [TML] Junk in space

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
> > On the other hand, a 2 cm chunk of something is going to do more
> > than leave a dent.
> 
> Such a chunk probably has a kinetic energy of about 1 MJ at best, and
> very likely is travelling at substantially less than the speed of
> sound in starship hull material.
> 
> I think "make a dent" would be about right.  If one ever hit, 
> which it
> wouldn't unless the sensors were crippled.

Why am I reminded of the "ravioli railgun" post of several years ago?  
(I'd repost it again, except that it's on one of my computers back 
Stateside....)

IIRC, one of our Scandinavian list members also has it archived.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Check Your Landgrabs!
Message-ID: <3D4C1132.3C2572D6@mail.cswnet.com>

Just floated over to the CotI site and looked up
their version of the Spinward Marches. Arba's
population has gone from 550 to 100.

Everything else seems to be the same.

Those with landgrabs may want to check and see if 
there are any significant changes. I'd be interested
to know if anyone else's landgrab systems got altered
significantly.

Anyone now what T20's historical time frame is, if
it has one?

Now I'm thinking. Moving Nimmi Shis away from the
starport turns out to have been good planing. We
can waste the town, leave downport intact, and
have enough population left to cover the new
population figure. Quite a few BM's will bite the
dust, but the Taylors and the Tacans will still
be around. If the history works out right, we
can blame it all on the Sword Worlders.

Course, that supposes that I would want to have it
that way. Since I live in CT land, I just may decide
to ignore this little bit.

CT Arba pop 600
BTC Arba pop 550
T20 Arba pop 100

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <20020803173031.AB7754508@mo130uhou.palm.net>

john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:
[snip]
>This and many more fine quotes may be found on Mark Urbin's Web site: 
>http://www.urbin.net/EWW/sigs/rpg-sigs.html

 Thanks for the plug!
When that page gets big enough to split up, Penguin Boy gets his own wing...
----------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:33:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:33:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Check Your Landgrabs!
In-Reply-To: <3D4C1132.3C2572D6@mail.cswnet.com>
References: <3D4C1132.3C2572D6@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <200208031332570059.518D8C96@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 8/3/2002 at 12:21 PM Roseberry wrote:

>Just floated over to the CotI site and looked up
>their version of the Spinward Marches. Arba's
>population has gone from 550 to 100.
>
>Everything else seems to be the same.
>
>Those with landgrabs may want to check and see if 
>there are any significant changes. I'd be interested
>to know if anyone else's landgrab systems got altered
>significantly.
>
>Anyone now what T20's historical time frame is, if
>it has one?

The data other than for Ley Sector may be off. I am still looking for a=
 good set of definative SEC files for that section of the website. If=
 anyone can point to me to some or has good copies based on the AotI data,=
 I would appreciate it!

The Ley Sector data is based on our upcoming material and is set around=
 year 1000.

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"
In-Reply-To: <005301c23ad6$a4ab5760$1d17bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <B971637A.67A12%listmom@travellercentral.com>

Please relate this to Traveller

Listmom


on 8/3/02 3:14 AM, MJ Dougherty at martinjd@globalnet.co.uk wrote:

>> 
>> I rest my case.
>> 
>> "It's Milosivic's fault we bombed a convoy of farmers!"
>> "It's Arafat's fault we bombed that apartment building!"
>> "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a convoy of inauguration representatives
> on
>> the open road!"
>> 
>> If I were to act with this level of disregard even in defense of my own
>> children, I'd be in jail.  McVeigh was right -- "collateral damage" covers
> a
>> multitude of sins.
> 
> This sort of thing happens in war all the time. War is a tapestry of misery
> and suffering, most of it needless.
> 
> People demand that we go to do what must be done ( or sometimes protest
> about it and refuse to see why it must be done) then condemn the military
> when innocents get hurt.
> 
> The answer? Learn to get along and abolish conflict.
> Until then, we must accept the paradox and try to do the best we can not to
> cause needless suffering. But we will, all the same.
> That's why this world sucks.

-- 
listmom@travellercentral.com
for list information see
http://lists.travellercentral.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:42:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:42:06 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <fc.1bc430d6.2a7d06b7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B97163D2.67A14%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/3/02 3:13 AM, Flykiller@aol.com at Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>> Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
>> big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.
> 
> What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other sensor systems
> you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?


Nothing says that mines need to be static, waiting for something to hit
them.  A mine could be nothing more than a large missile with high
acceleration and short range waiting for some ship to come into range.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <001401c23ae8$dcdeae40$0905bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <B97164B2.67A15%listmom@travellercentral.com>

Please relate this to Traveller or move it to TML-Chat


on 8/3/02 5:25 AM, MJ Dougherty at martinjd@globalnet.co.uk wrote:

>> circles around the vast majority of the females I've seen, no
> exaggeration.
> 
> On the flip side, two of my friends (female friends) are more determined and
> in absolute terms more capable than half the men in our martial arts class.
> They're better than many who hold higher grades. They'd be barred under your
> rules.
> 
>> that's not damning women, and that's not prejudice.
> 
> Deciding the fate of half the human race - pre-judging their capabilities -
> becuase of gender. Nah, that's notuing like prejudice.
> 
> Of course, the poor dears can't be expected to understand politics, manage
> an estate or run a business either. Any you know? they couldn't do it. Not
> until someone let them try.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

-- 
listmom@travellercentral.com
for list information see
http://lists.travellercentral.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Con Jose the World SF Con any Travellers going?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020801092023.45176588@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <200208010315.g713FgD09733@sun.ebtech.net>
Message-ID: <200208031757.g73Hv6x10235@sun.ebtech.net>

Actually Anne Murphy in publications is a friend of mine.
I'll be staying in the party hotel and working in the Hilton.

Let's try and do something.


> At 11:12 PM 7/31/2002 -500, you wrote:
> >Hi I'll be at Con Jose working the Coffeeklatches
> >
> >Anyone else planning on attending?
> 
> I'll be there, working publications.
> 
> >Maybe we could get together over a meal to talk Traveller.
> 
> It would be fun.  May I suggest that anyone attending ConJose subscribe to
> Travller in SF.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TravellerinSF/
> 
> So we can coordinate a meeting time and place.  If we want to do an actual
> dinner, I need to know how many people are coming. -- 
> 
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
> 
> "Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
> - Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] damning (OT) PLEASE STOP
In-Reply-To: <191.ae4ea8c.2a7d3751@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B971661B.67A21%listmom@travellercentral.com>

This whole discussion is both unrelated to Traveller and inflammatory.  If
you wish to continue it, please take it off the TML.  Move it to TML-chat,
whatever.  

Thank You,

Listmom



on 8/3/02 6:40 AM, Flykiller@aol.com at Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> I'm not the one setting them.
> 
> The Army (and by Army I mean all the branches) generally refuses to enlist
> any 40 year old male (unless they're a chaplain or a doctor).  Are there some

[snip]

> there are problems, serious problems with performance, reliability,
> deployability, and discipline, and to deny it is a disservice to the defense
> of the U.S.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

-- 
listmom@travellercentral.com
for list information see
http://lists.travellercentral.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Check Your Landgrabs!
Message-ID: <3D4C1760.CA00C331@mail.cswnet.com>

Hunter Gordon writes:
>The data other than for Ley Sector may be off. I am still looking for >a good set of definative SEC files for that section of the website. >If anyone can point to me to some or has good copies based on the >AotI data, I would appreciate it!

>The Ley Sector data is based on our upcoming material and is set >around year 1000.

Well shoot, if its gonna by year 1000 than I don't have to do anything.
Cool. Just a bunch of prospectors and LSP hangers on.
The LSP starport eventually deteriates to type E, then a new one 
gets built elsewhere by independant colonists around 1083-1084.
Yeah, I can go with that. Mahvelous!

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
 traveller)
In-Reply-To: <m3y9bndi8f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <B97167AA.67A22%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/3/02 9:23 AM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> 
> No, 'cause they'd still not get the full rest needed.  My
> greatgrandfather and grandfather took well over a month to return to
> the US after WWI & WWII; my father was back in college in 48 or so
> hours after his time in Vietnam.  Granted, that's _some_ rest time,
> but it's not nearly enough.  You don't find as much PTSD in fellows
> who got to slowly make their way back home, adjust to the new reality
> &c.; you find quite a lot in guys who are plucked up from one
> situation and dropped in another.

While there is likely a connection between PTSD and rapid reintegration back
into 'normal' life, experts have also linked PSTD to the extensive use of
operant conditioning of soldiers that occurred after WWII.

What provisions does the Imperium make for combat veterans returning to
civilian life?  Are long voyages home sufficient?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: a believable starfaring navy?
Message-ID: <200208031922.g73JMGw03053@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
...
>> >cruiser before it closed and killed the carrier. Or....
>>
>>   Sadly, HG2 doesn't allow those sorts of complications, but
>> any of the hex-based Trav games make riders/carriers _much_
>> less attractive for precisely that reason.
>
>Agreed. This is why I believe that HG/TCS alone do not present a framework
>for creating a believable starfaring navy.

  You can abstract that - there was a thread on SCTA (a HG2 / 
TCS List:  ct-starships@yahoogroups.com ) about that this spring.

  Most carrier/rider solutions also entail reduced Jump efficiency 
due to refuelling, which TCS & 5FW only partly address.

  IIRC, Mr. Smith has a draft for in-system operational actions
up on the net (URL?), which should highlight the downsides of
low-G rider tenders (etc).

  Perhaps BL/BR can be mined for ideas on more purely tactical
limitations of tender dependent forces, such as the pure
excitement of cutting an entry too closely to an enemy force?

The rest of the rider debate is too well attested to merit re-flogging :>

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:28:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:28:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <200208031927.g73JRUw03653@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: sneadj@mindspring.com
>Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 22:16:45 -0700
>Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
...  
>However, Dresden is an amazingly clear cut case.  It was an act of 
>terror and vengeance easily as bad as anything the other side did 
>in it's bombing of civilian targets.

  Arguably it was also a strong message to Uncle Joe, although
I'm far from clear as to why we'd want to say "we're worse than
you" to _that_ regime.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lawyers
In-Reply-To: <20020803114546.E36724505@mo130uhou.palm.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803111851.4727ae50@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:45 AM 8/3/2002 +0000, you wrote:

>"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:
>[snip]
>>Most Traveller parties need a full time lawyer - but how many  
>>have you seen with one?  
>
>Even Doc Savage kept a lawyer in his group. :-)
>Useful for the high Admin skills too...

I played a lawyer in a Repo game.  Eneri Bitterman, Attorney-at-Large.  I
had poor combat skills, but excellent research and people skills.  When
we'd take a ship, I'd present the legal papers claiming the ship due to
loan default.

We had a blast.


Best line: "Hey!  This was a new suit!  Add it to our expenses!"
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:38:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:38:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
 traveller)
In-Reply-To: <m3y9bndi8f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <199.acd8aa3.2a7cea81@aol.com>
 <199.acd8aa3.2a7cea81@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803112050.478f7fe2@pop.mindspring.com>

At 10:23 AM 8/3/2002 -0600, you wrote:

>No, 'cause they'd still not get the full rest needed.  My
>greatgrandfather and grandfather took well over a month to return to
>the US after WWI & WWII; my father was back in college in 48 or so
>hours after his time in Vietnam.  Granted, that's _some_ rest time,
>but it's not nearly enough.  You don't find as much PTSD in fellows
>who got to slowly make their way back home, adjust to the new reality
>&c.; you find quite a lot in guys who are plucked up from one
>situation and dropped in another.

Which we accounted for in Desert Storm.  Most combat units spent a few
weeks getting back into routine before going stateside.

Returning home as a unit helped.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:39:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:39:51 2002
Subject: [TML] prejudice (OT)
In-Reply-To: <116.14e786df.2a7d2ad1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803112905.471757e8@pop.mindspring.com>

At 08:47 AM 8/3/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>And good heavens, I agree.  But joining the army is not the same.  The army 
>needs people it can definitely train now, that it can depend on to be able
>to do certain things now, and that are tough enough to get it done now.  

When I joined the US Army, I could barely do 5 push-ups, 20 situps, and
running 2 miles was out of the question.

Thirteen weeks later, in my final PT test, I did, in 2 minutes, 58 good
push-ups, 69 sit-ups, and ran 2 miles in just under 14 minutes.  I also had
never touched a firearm, but came out an expert marksman with several
weapons.  This is why we have training.

You comparison to a forty year old, is off.  Theoretically, that forty year
old had 22 years to decide to join, he chose not to.  A blanket ban on
women removes the choice.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:40:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:40:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Superstition (and Movies)
In-Reply-To: <d.2aca729a.2a7ca6f7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803113810.4727edae@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:24 PM 8/2/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>The movie MEMPHIS BELLE (the 1990s remake, not the earlier documentary) 
>illustrates this about as accurately as Hollywood ever gets history. It's a 
>pretty good representation of the history involved, including the extreme 
>youth of the aircrew.
>
>"Danny! Jack threw my St Christopher overboard!"
>"Here, take my lucky rubber band . . . it works, honest."

When I was still driving for SuperShuttle I had the honor of carrying one
of the Tuskeegee airmen in my van.  The stories he told me...  Evidently,
one of the pilots *had* to do a barrel-roll on take-off.  He's done it
once, and gotten his first kill.  So he did it everytime.  Another pilot
touched the muzzles of all the MGs before boarding.

>Several years ago, I was toying with the notion of writing a book of war 
>movie reviews discussing the relative level of accuracy of each (although I 
>think it has already been done). GETTYSBURG is one of my faves in this 
>regard. 

Great film.  "General, I have no division..."
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <m3k7n8eh5f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <3.0.5.16.20020802200157.46a789a6@pop.mindspring.com>
 <3.0.5.16.20020802200157.46a789a6@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803114257.497f3788@pop.mindspring.com>

At 09:49 PM 8/2/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes:
>>
>> Oh, and an NCO having sex with a solider in the same chain of
>> command is a violation of the UCMJ.  They deserved to get busted.
>
>That's a nice enough theory, but if one throws a bunch of 18-20
>yr. old boys and girls together they're going to get randy.  That's
>the Way It Is, regardless of what the rules are.  At least if one
>believes the modern prattle that one's sexual drive is irresistible,
>then one cannot hold anyone to account for giving in to said drive.
>And if one _doesn't_ hold to said prattle, then there's a whole load
>of other things one must abandon.

A NCO is supposed to be in better control of him/herself.  If that NCO is
out of control, then take away the stripes.

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:42:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:42:56 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <40.21b2d6f0.2a7cfea7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803114514.4717ac00@pop.mindspring.com>

At 05:38 AM 8/3/2002 EDT, you wrote:
> >And I daresay that if we have women serving in full combat capacity
> >under the regimes of either seperate standards (i.e. where they must
> >not meet the same standards as men) or reduced standards (e.g. I
> >understand that two-man stretcher teams are now four or more), we will
> >see plenty of human beings who die miserably because their comrades
> >are not up to the task.
>
>Actually, I'll bet we won't.  The military is talking now about how much 
>future warfare will be on the level of special ops, utilizing local troops 
>and only sending in special forces to coordinate bomb strikes, like in 
>Afghanistan.
>
>Army?  What army?

And in 1960 we knew that the next war was going to be on the North German
plains and involve massive tank formations.

Vietnam?  Where's that?
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Embrace Fascism.    The uniforms look cool


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:43:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:43:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <00e801c23adc$47c368c0$1d17bd50@martinjd>
References: <20020802231503.19852.60096.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <3D4B3637.35538EB8@mailbag.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803114655.4717ae96@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:54 AM 8/3/2002 +0100, you wrote:

>You mean Clif!
>
>Hey, everyone, he invoked Clif!
>
>Clif has been Invoked!

Aieee!!! you said it three times!  At least no one has mentioned Leroy yet... 
oh, damn.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"Some days, you just can't get rid  of a bomb!"
                    -Adam West, as Batman 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:44:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:44:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <39.2b0d8fbb.2a7d17c6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803114832.4717769c@pop.mindspring.com>

At 07:25 AM 8/3/2002 EDT, you wrote:

> >I also saw many male soldiers who whined and always seemed to be on
>profile.
>
>Many?  I saw a small handful -- in boot camp.  None of them passed.  Outside 
>of that, it was just normal morale problems.  My first reserve unit was top 
>notch, the navy men complained but were reliable and tough, and my next 
>reserve unit seemed to have nothing but capable people (except for a few 
>opportunistic bureaucrats).  I can't speak to where you were, but I've been 
>to some places and seen some environments, and I can't say I've seen "many" 
>male whiners or sick-bay commandos.

Many.  It might help that I was infantry.  I saw guys who were constantly
on profile, whined about their recruiters, and started their ETS countdown
with three years left in the service.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:45:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:45:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <19b.65b1e1c.2a7d49d4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803121034.44ff804c@pop.mindspring.com>

At 10:59 AM 8/3/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>Ah, a general overall fleet attack.  You describe a situation some weeks 
>after it has begun.  I think my scouts would give me a more accurate
picture, 
>and sooner.  I will send a message to Deneb to send a fleet.

Two months to get there at Jump-6.  Assuming an entire fleet is ready to
rush to your aid, 2-3 months to get it to the front.

>What is the status of his fleet at Cipango and Cronor?  If he has that much 
>out in my areas, then his central fleet is weakened.  If I can put two task 
>forces each on Cipango and maybe Ninjar then _his_ logistics train will be 
>cut entirely, and they'll provide a welcoming committee to any Zhodie ships 
>that straggle back home looking for support.  Further I'll send the fleet 
>raider task force to shoot up whatever they can in other worlds in that
area. 

What are his war goals?  If it is disrupting the Imperial confidence in the
sector, you will not be able to justify your move politically!  Remember,
in WWII the US went on the offensive only after Midway.

> Two can play this game, only I'll do it with concentrated task forces.  Let 
>the consule at Cronor yell at _his_ commander:  "There are a thousand 
>frigates at Querion!  Do something!"

Meanwhile there are a hundred ships at Jewell, Efate, Pixie.. destroying
naval bases and advanced starports.  He has a shorter line of support than
you.  Assuming that he started the attack, he also has more stockpiled
replacements.

>I'll leave Jewell exposed and do that.  Then I'll send out some of my task 
>forces individually to locate and mop up these isolated forces, using an 
>extensive scout network to relay information on their activities and ship 
>counts.  I'll plot their courses and attempt to determine where they want to 
>go.  Not that this would be hard to guess anyway -- I'm sure the Zhodies
will 
>bypass Pscias and go for Rethe if they can.

Any information you get will be at *least* a week out of date.  More likely
several weeks old.  How do you know that while you are chasing down raiders
the real main fleet isn't descending upon Regina?

> >Zho fleet elements have struck at weak targets on the border, but you don't
> >know it they retired afterward or are advancing.
>
>Assume they're advancing.

No.  You assume they are advancing.  You won't be sure until later.. much
later.
>
> >Your intelligence is a mess of vessel reports,
>
>This can be sorted out.  It may take a few hours, but I'm sure my staff is 
>efficient.

Try days.  And there is always a piece missing.  Read up on Market Garden

> >and while the attacks on
> >minor worlds are trivial from a military standpoint, those are imperial
> >citizens being shot up.
>
>Yes.  They will have to wait.  Soon it will be the Zhodies turn to be shot
up.

A bit harsh, yes?  Your job is to defend the Imperium!

>Everything in due time.  The Duke will have to be a big boy.  And likely he 
>is.  When the Zhodie fleet has been rolled back, I'll send in the troop 
>transports.  Not until then.

Tentative.  Hit them hard with everything.  If the Zho troops are engaged
in combat, suddenly they need help.  You've given the Zho commander a new
headache.  Depending on his ground investment, he may have a few hundred
thousand troops on the ground.  

>You're trying to make me panic.  I won't.  If the Zhodies have scattered a 
>lot of their fleet through my sector then I'll roll them up one at a time 
>with my task forces at no risk to myself.  It'll take a while, but it will
be 
>done.  Zhodane is mostly at tech 14, and tech 14 wallows in the mud against 
>tech 15.  I've tried every possible Zhodie fleet combination against the 
>Spinward Marches fleet that I can think of, pitting 7 AE worlds against what 
>Mora and Trin can build, and his only chance is to stick together.

You are still wedded to the idea that the Zho *wants* a fleet engagement.
You said it yourself: that's suicide.  So he keeps skirmishing.  Letting a
massive fleet be seen in one place, which then jumps to several different
worlds.  You come in and pick off a CruRon or two, but two jumps away,
there is glowing slag where the orbital shipyards used to be.  Look up
Quantril' Raiders, or the Rangers.  A diversified force can rip a superior
force to shreds if they are careful.

Which Roman was it that got ripped to shreds in Germany?

>Instead, I will make the Zhodies panic.  In 500 years the Imperium has never 
>taken offensive action against the Zhodane.  The Imperium has always
reacted, 
>defended, retreated, lost worlds.  I'll make the Zhodies defend and react to 
>me.  I will cut their lines, sit astride their repair facilities, and put 
>capital ships where they have not been for 500 years, forcing the Zhodies to 
>come to me.  Riverland and Cronor used to be Imperial.  I will have them 
>back.  When the Imperial Fleet reinforcements arrive, I just might get them.

Cool.  And in the same time, you have the Zhos coming from everywhere (the
Consulate is much smaller, y'know) and the Zho's destroying the ares you
were supposed to be defending!  If you are lucky, you'll be killed in
battle, and won't be hung for gross incompetence.

Mission is everything.  If you have been attacked, your first duty as an
Imperial officer is to defend the state.  Taking the war to the enemy's
home is a political decision.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"Genetically" we are nearly identical to fruit flies.  On the
other hand, as a species we write better string quartets. 
				- Rich Clancey


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:46:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:46:40 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <63.f7e6699.2a7d4cf9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803123126.44ff6796@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:12 AM 8/3/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>And that will work in my favor, as much of the Spinward Population lives in 
>the highly protected worlds of Trin, Mora, Glisten, Rhylanor, and Palique, 
>and the main fleet is very close by to Rethe, Louzy, Lunion, Jewell, and 
>Vilis.  That's almost half of the Spinward Marches on those planets alone.

My Sword World allies will tie down the Lunion and Glisten fleets.  Vargr
forces will raid the Coreward ends of Regina and Aramis to draw off fleet
elements from those subsectors.  Raiders and deep penetration fleets will
be sent into Regina and Villis for commerce and raiding and hit&run attacks
against starports capable of repairing navy ships.

My main thrust will come at Louzy/Jewell and Grant/Jewell.  Cutting off the
Jewell cluster.  Louzy has no gas giant, and Grant only two, making these
systems easy to hold.

With the door barred, and my penetrators wrecking havoc, I move on the
Jewell cluster itself.  Ruby (1005), Emerald (1006), and Mongo (1204) are
the first targets. All are relatively low tech, and only Mongo has a Naval
base.  From there, I send more forces to Lysen (1307).  Lysen doesn't have
enough people or technology to put up a stiff resitience.  These moves
would be on a timed basis, with fleets moving according to schedule.

Once everyhing was secure, I'd move the bulk of my fleets to Jewell (1106)
along with the invasion force.  Jewell would be a tough nut to crack

(Divergence, I just had the most amazing case of deja-vu.  I clearly
remembered typing that exact sentiece before, on this computer.  Weird)

With you reacting to my previous moves, I have you out of position.  I can
begin the bombardment of targets on the planet with minimal interference.
I would send troops down *as quickly as is possible* because in orbit, they
are targets.  On the ground, they are an asset.  My forces at the other
worlds have couriers stationed with them; ordered to jump out *the moment*
a large Imperial force engages my force.  This will give me at least a
little warning.

Obviously, there are holes in this attack, since I just came up with it.
The biggest hole I see is a fleet coming through the Federation of Arden on
my Rimward flank.  Placing pickets at Zircon (1110), Utoland (1209), Pequan
(1210), and 871-438 (1510) would give me warning, although I am probably
short on ships at this point.  Just have to hope that the raiders and
Swordies are doing their job.

There, a clear plan with goals.  That's what the Imperial player would also
need.  There is never a time when allowing massive friendly civilian
casualties is acceptable.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:47:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:47:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <98.29de0498.2a7d4f0e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803123222.44ff714e@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:21 AM 8/3/2002 EDT, you wrote:
> >You're thniking of everything in terms of a mapboard and counters. I'm
> >discussing warfare.
>
>I'm thinking in terms of what the actually constructed vessels will do 
>according to the rules, yes.  You are thinking in terms of imagining what
you 
>think various effects will be.  I'll take the hardware -- such as it is -- 
>and I'll have the last word.

You are really setting records for honking people off here, you know that?
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:48:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:48:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Ravioli in space (was: Junk in space)
Message-ID: <F114k2H3b98KtdhQYZk00009320@hotmail.com>

From: john.groth@us.army.mil
>From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
>>Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> > On the other hand, a 2 cm chunk of something is going to do more
>> > than leave a dent.
>>
>>Such a chunk probably has a kinetic energy of about 1 MJ at best, and
>>very likely is travelling at substantially less than the speed of
>>sound in starship hull material.
>>
>>I think "make a dent" would be about right.  If one ever hit,
>>which it
>>wouldn't unless the sensors were crippled.
>
>Why am I reminded of the "ravioli railgun" post of several years ago?
>(I'd repost it again, except that it's on one of my computers back
>Stateside....)
>
>IIRC, one of our Scandinavian list members also has it archived.

<puff of smoke>Oh, I have been summoned!


<Start Repost>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 08:31:46 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: HUMOR/Physics; Under enough pressure, ravioli behaves as a gas.

This is humor only people at MIT...or on the Traveller Mailing list...can 
appreciate.  Ravioli rail guns anyone?
While humorous in primary intent, this article also contains important
information about impact effects at vars. speeds...of a can of ravioli.

- ------- Forwarded Message>>To: 0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org
>Subject: Under enough pressure, ravioli behaves as a gas.
>Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 11:43:20 -0500>From: glen mccready <glen@qnx.com>>
[snip forwards]

>>There was still one aspect of the whole concept of a ravioli-loaded
>>railgun type wepon which we, lolling about late on a weeknight, with
>>only a few neurons randomly firing, could not resolve.  Would a chunk
>>of metal (can of ravioli) impacting another, larger, rest mass
>>structure (star destroyer) produce an "explosion" effect, or simply
>>punch an appropriately shaped hole as it passed through?  Bill?>

>What am I, the neighborhood blast physicist???  Well, maybe... :-)
>
>It all depends on speed of impact versus the speed of sound in the target
>(what is called the Mach number, where Mach 1 means the speed of sound,
>Mach 2 is twice the speed of sound, etc), and the speed of the ravioli
>versus the speed of light in the target (which I'll call the Cerenkov
>number, where Cerenkov 1 is the speed of light in anything; Cerenkov 1.3
>is the speed of high-energy protons in a water-cooled reactor (that's why
>you get that nifty blue glow), and you can get up to Cerenkov 2.4 using
>diamonds and nuclear accellerators.  In the late 40's people used to talk
>about Cerenkov numbers, but they don't anymore.  Pity.).  Lastly, there's
>the ravioli velocity expressed as a fraction of the speed of light in a
>vacuum (that is, as a fraction of "c").  "C" velocities are always between
>0 and 1.
>
>At low speeds (REAL low) the ravioli will simply flow over the surface,
>yielding a space-cruiser with a distinctly Italian paint job.>
>Faster (still well below speed-of-sound in the target) the metal of the
>space-cruiser's skin will distort downward, making what we Boston drivers
>call a "small dent".
>
>Faster still, you may have a "big dent" or maybe even a "big dent with a
>hole in the middle", caused by the ravioli having enough energy to push
>the dent through, stretching and thinning the hull metal till the metal
>finally tears in the middle of the dent.
>
>Getting up past Mach 1 (say, 5000 feet/sec for steel), you start to get
>punch-a-hole-shaped-like-the-object effects, because the metal is being
>asked to move faster than the binding forces in the object can propagate
>the "HEY!  MOVE!" information.  (After all, sound is just the binding
>forces between atoms in a material moving the adjacent atoms -- and the
>speed of sound is how fast the message to "move" can propagate.)  From
>this, we see that WileE Coyote often reached far-supersonic speeds because
>he often punched silhouette-type holes in rocks, cliffs, trucks, etc.
>
>Around Mach 4 or so, another phenomenon starts -- compressive heating.
>This is where the leading edge of the ravioli actually starts being heated
>by compression (remember PV=nRT, the ideal gas law?)  Well, ravioli isn't
>a gas, but under enough pressure, ravioli behaves as a gas.  It is
>compressed at the instant of impact and gets hot -- very hot.  Likewise,
>the impact point on the hull is compressed and gets hot.  Both turn to
>gasses -- real gasses, glowing-white-hot gasses.  The gasses expand
>spherically, causing crater-like effects, including a raised rim and a
>basically parabolic shape.  In the center of the crater, some material is
>vaporized, then there's a melt zone, then a larger "bent" zone, and the
>raised rim is caused because the gas expansion bubble center point (the
>bending force) is actually *inside* the hull plate.  If the hull plate
>isn't thick enough, then the gas-expansion bubble pushes through to the
>other side, and you get a structural breach event (technically speaking,
>a "big hole") in the side of the space-cruiser.
>
>Compressive heating really hits the stride up around 20,000 feet/sec (Mach
>4 in steel, Mach 15 in air) and continues as a major factor all the way
>up to the high fractional Cerenkov speeds, where nuclear forces begin to
>take effect.
>
>Aside: the "re-entry friction heating" that spacecraft endure when the
>reenter the atmosphere is NOT friction.  It's really compressive heating
>of the air in the path.  As long as the spacecraft is faster than Mach 1,
>the air can't know to get out of the way, so it bunches up in front of
>the spacecraft.  When you squeeze any gas, it gets hot.  So, the glowing
>"reentry gas" is really just squeezed air, which heats the spacecraft heat
>shield by conduction and infrared.  The hypersonic ravioli can be expected
>to behave similarly.
>
>As we increase speed from the high Mach numbers (about 10 miles/sec) all
>the way up to about 150,000 miles/sec, not much different happens except
>that the amount of kinetic energy (which turns into compressive heat)
>increases.  This is a huge range of velocity, but it's uninteresting
>velocity.
>
>At high fractional Cerenkov speeds, the ravioli is now beginning to travel
>at relativistic velocities.  Among other things, this means that the
>ravioli is aging more slowly than usual, and the ravioli can looks
>compressed in the direction of travel.  But that's really not important
>right now.
>
>As we pass Cerenkov 1.0 in the target, we get a new phenomenon -- Cerenkov
>radiation.  This is that distinctive blue glow seen around water-cooled
>reactors.  It's just (relatively) harmless light (harmless compared to
>the other blast effects, that is).  I mention it only because it's so
>nifty...
>
>At around .9 c (Cerenkov 1.1) , the ravioli starts to perceptibly weigh
>more.  It's just a relativistic mass increase -- all the additional weight
>is actually energy, available to do compressive heating upon impact.  The
>extra weight is converted to heat energy according to the equation E=mc^2;
>it looks like compressive heating but it's not.
>
>[Here's where I'm a little hazy on the numbers; I'm at work and
>don't have time to rederive the Lorentz transformations.]
>
>At around .985 c (Cerenkov 1.2 or so), the ravioli now weighs twice what
>it used to weigh. For a one pound can, that's two pounds... or about sixty
>megatons of excess energy.  All of it turns to heat on impact.  Probably
>very little is left of the space-cruiser.
>
>At around .998 c, the impacting ravioli begins to behave less like ravioli
>and more like an extremely intense radiation beam.  Protons in the water
>of the ravioli begin to successfully penetrate the nuclei of the hull
>metal.  Thermonuclear interactions, such as hydrogen fusion, may take
>place in the tomato sauce.
>
>At around .9998 c, the ravioli radiation beam is still wimpy as far as
>nuclear accellerator energy is concerned, but because there is so much of
>it, we can expect a truly powerful blast of mixed radiation coming out of
>the impact site.  Radiation, not mechanical blast, may become the largest
>hazard to any surviving crew members.
>
>At around .9999999 c, the ravioli radiation may begin to produce
>"interesting" nuclear particles and events (heavy, short-lived particles).
>
>At around .999999999999 c, the ravioli impact site may begin to resemble
>conditions in the original "big bang"; equilibrium between matter and
>energy; free pair production; antimatter and matter coexisting in
>equilibrium with a very intense gamma-ray flux, etc.[1]
>
>Past that, who knows?  It may be possible to generate quantum black holes
>given a sufficiently high velocity can of ravioli.
>
>     --Bill
>
>[1]According to physicist W. Murray, we may also expect raining frogs,
>   plagues of locusts, cats and dogs living together, real Old Testament
>   destruction.  You get the idea...
<end repost>


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:50:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:50:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
In-Reply-To: <20020803190005.10755.54707.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17b4qf-0002Ab-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
 
> While there is likely a connection between PTSD and rapid
> reintegration back into 'normal' life, experts have also linked PSTD
> to the extensive use of operant conditioning of soldiers that occurred
> after WWII.

???  I've never heard of this, who performed this conditioning and 
what were they attempting to do?  I'd be very interested in hearing 
more about this.

-John sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: intrasystem jumps?
Message-ID: <200208031956.g73Jurw06881@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
...
>> and protect shipping between these points.  Convoys may be forced to
>> use jump ships to do intrasystem jumps to avoid raiders,
>
>Not likely, I would think.  That would cripple your economy worse than
>losing 70% of your ships.  You'd be better off escorting them in
>normal space, since non-jump ships are so much cheaper than jump
>capable ones.

  Under G:T? In CT the cost difference isn't all that marked - an
in-system transport designed under HG2 could have J-1 installed
with the tankage demountable. Most dedicated in-system freight
would be normal space (& possibly _very_ slow!), but the wartime
requirement for tonnage might be readied in such auxiliary ships?

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 14:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 13:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <E17arId-0004ch-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <C25B0D56-A71B-11D6-8894-000502884755@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

On Friday, August 2, 2002, at 10:16 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
>
> The fun part will come of someone figures out a moderately easy
> way to get someone into a simulator while making them think they
> are getting into the real thing.  You won't be able to pull that trick
> more than once on someone unless the sims are *really* good
> (and they might be), but it would be an *excellent* test of exactly
> how well a pilot has learned his or her lessons.

The *really* fun part is where some Bad Guy(TM) figures out how to take 
out the safeties, and make a sim that really *can* kill...

> --
Bruce Johnson

Wherever you go, there you are.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 14:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 13:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Blowing holes in Japan (was " Re Patton")
In-Reply-To: <F215m4i0FN8Qnr2Hs3j00000007@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <828EDE16-A71E-11D6-8894-000502884755@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

On Friday, August 2, 2002, at 08:27 PM, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>     The result may have been an Indochina similar to our Central 
> America, rat bastards in charge of corrupt, laughing-stock nations 
> supported by the West solely because they aren't communists.

>     Gee, ain't alternate history fun?

Me thinks back to Suharto, Marcos, Dieu, Kai-shek, whoever it was that 
ruled Korea for so long...I must ask, sir, what's so *alternate* about 
this history you're describing? ;-)

--
Bruce Johnson

Wherever you go, there you are.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 14:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug  3 13:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
In-Reply-To: <E17b4qf-0002Ab-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <B9718B94.67A59%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/3/02 12:44 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:

> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> 
>> While there is likely a connection between PTSD and rapid
>> reintegration back into 'normal' life, experts have also linked PSTD
>> to the extensive use of operant conditioning of soldiers that occurred
>> after WWII.
> 
> ???  I've never heard of this, who performed this conditioning and
> what were they attempting to do?  I'd be very interested in hearing
> more about this.

Operant conditioning was one of the center pieces of the army's new training
methods that were adopted as a results of the work of SLA Marshall.
Marshall reported that only a small fraction of infantryman in combat fired
their weapons.  Even though Marshall's seminal work "Men against fire" has
been called into question, there is little doubt that Marshall's theories
had a great impact on military training.  A classic example of the operant
conditioning that was adopted post WWII is in the case of basic rifle
marksmanship.  Until the 1950, rifle marksmanship consisted of firing at
conventional targets at known distances.  This was changed to firing at
human silhouettes at random ranges in conditioned meant to simulate combat.
Soldiers were 'conditioned' to fire automatically at human silhouette.

The program was successful.  The number of troops firing in combat went from
10-30% to over 90%.  Many psychiatrists and others in the field have
suggested that this operant conditioning may have had deleterious effects in
that it short circuits the natural human reluctance to kill.  There is a
detailed explanation of this theory in Grossman's "On Killing", and it has
received coverage in other works such as "An intimate history of killing"
and "Achilles in Vietnam"

Hope that helps.

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 14:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Sat Aug  3 13:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] PTSD
In-Reply-To: <E17b4qf-0002Ab-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208031349080.22611-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Sat, 3 Aug 2002 sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:

> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
>  
> > While there is likely a connection between PTSD and rapid
> > reintegration back into 'normal' life, experts have also linked PSTD
> > to the extensive use of operant conditioning of soldiers that occurred
> > after WWII.
> 
> ???  I've never heard of this, who performed this conditioning and 
> what were they attempting to do?  I'd be very interested in hearing 
> more about this.

I know very little about this, but recent studies with sexual assault
victims (a lot of PTSD cases in civilian life occur among sexual assault
victims) *have* shown that a lot of the things we used to do to prevent
PTSD don't work and seem to make the problem worse.  For instance,
they found that certain forms of "debriefing" which involved discussing
the incident over and over actually increased the likelihood of
flashbacks.  Apparently this only seems to fix and anchor the memories. 

I don't unfortunately still have the citation, but I read it on
www.medscape.com -- I get the Transplantation update because of my job but
also signed up for the Women's Health and Psychiatry updates because of
my personal health issues.  I know it's out there.

The current trend on PTSD according to a lecture I attended recently is
that there seems to be a window in which symptoms will or won't develop,
and that judicious use of other forms of therapy including drugs to
decrease the nervous system reactivity are more effective than
"debriefing" or operant conditioning.  Apparently one's brain chemistry
becomes much more reactive following a sexual assault or battle experience
or other trauma... and whether or not it stays that way is the deciding
factor for the development of PTSD.

Please remember that these people who used these ineffective treatments
weren't evil or careless; they were doing the best they had with the
information currently available.

Kiri :)

**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shadowcat)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Quote from a Martial Arts Newsgroup[OT]
Message-ID: <3D4BC3F3.19297.767088@localhost>

> Let's have a good old Elisha vs. the prophets of Baal showdown.  
You 
> pray to Allah, I'll pray to General Dynamics. We'll see who bursts 
> into flame first.

This wasnt attributed to source other than the newsgroup it was 
seen in


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for the Atro-genius Types (was: System Gen Help)
In-Reply-To: <c9.261a11c4.2a7d38e2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020803210827.89257.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>

Would it be possible for a planet be captured into an
L4 or L5 point on a Gas Giant?


>  >> I am doing an extended system generation.  I
> rolled
>  >> for #6 to be the max orbit.  I also rolled for 2
>  >> captured planets.  One is in orbit 6.3 and the
> other
>  >> is in 6.0
>  >> 
>  >> Orbit 6 and 5 are both SGG's.  4 is the
> mainworld and
>  >> the habitable zone.
>  >> 
>  >> Is this legitimate?  Or do I need to move the
> captured
>  >> planet in orbit 6.0 to somewhere else.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
In-Reply-To: <20020801210703.29080.82373.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentr
 al.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020803221209.00ac8e90@mail.pi.se>

Mr Greenly wrote:

>Would a world that has 80% of its surface covered by water, a dense
>nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, and one moon that is large enough to exert a
>tidal effect tend to be more or less climatically active? Assume
>moderate (terran-normal) vulcanism and a fairly non-polluting early TL
>aqua/agricultural society. Also assume standard polar ice caps and
>rotation around 20 deg. off the plane of the ecliptic. I'll welcome any
>and all comments...

Mr Greenly, I wish to apologize for the late reply.

Let me first say the result would depend on physiography (how do the 
continents look?), and what you mean with climatically active. Often people 
- not that I in any way wish to imply you do so in your question - confuse 
climate with weather. A world can have violent weather but uniform climate.

The second thing is that climate unless you do have a uniform world (like 
Venus) will vary, so what is standard climate is a bit like saying "this is 
a mountain world". Rather Star-Wars generalization. A world humans would 
endure on likely would not be so generic.

Okay, the basic difference is that you have a denser atmosphere and more 
oceanic surface.

This will lead to 1) more water vapor in the atmosphere giving more cloud 
cover. This moderates climate, and it moderates the diurnal differences. 
You may get very impressive storm systems _if_ oceans becomes warm enough 
to set of hurricanes. This is something you wish to check for your tropical 
zones - if the oceans are warmer than 27C you can expect severe storm 
belts. So you would get less climate but more weather.

It will also lead to 2) better heat transfer by oceans and atmosphere, as 
we have more atmosphere and more ocean. This however would depend on 
physiography too - you still have these icecaps, right? When Earth was 
warmer and more humid, there were no ice caps. So I'd guess most of your 
continents are pole-ward. That would lead to great variations near the 
polar ice caps - cold polar air, winds from the glaciers, great seasonal 
effects.

If we assume an Earth-like placement of continents, I'd wager the 
moderation would in general be something like 50% better than on Earth, and 
that would likely prevent ice caps to form on a large scale. In order to 
keep the ice caps, you need to lower temperatures worldwide. If you lower 
temperatures, the atmosphere will hold less water vapor, which means you 
will have less weather but more variable climate. You'd still have oceanic 
moderation and the dense atmosphere, so you would get a world on average 
cooler than Earth with less distinct climate zones.

The denser atmosphere would also influence aeolian erosion. But this is not 
as much a macro-climate issue, though it could be locally important for 
microclimate depending on the geomorphology and vegetation cover you intend 
to have. If you are interested in such ramblings - closer to my field, so 
to say - or want some elaboration or math on the stuff above feel free to 
contact me off-list. I fear I won't read the digests with much attention as 
long as the current post flurry goes on. (To put it diplomatically...)

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <98.29de0498.2a7d4f0e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c23b34$47c49940$a211bd50@martinjd>

> >You're thniking of everything in terms of a mapboard and counters. I'm
>  >discussing warfare.
>
> I'm thinking in terms of what the actually constructed vessels will do
> according to the rules, yes.

My point was always that a realistic game setting - my main concern - is not
the result of your fleet model, which is designed to play a game of High
Guard with. I've tried to show why other ships than dreadnoughts and scouts
or whatnot are necessessary and useful.

.  I'll take the hardware -- such as it is --
> and I'll have the last word.

I don't see what you mean by that comment. If you're claiming to be the High
Guard mastergenius then fine, whatever. You'll win High Guard games and the
Traveller universe will continue to have diverse classes of ships that you
think are pointless. All we've really established is that we have radically
different viewpoints. And I can live with that....



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Pixie Revisited (was: Imperial Taxes)
In-Reply-To: <4957.64.8.3.28.1028349006.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020803211533.94550.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>

--- hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head
> tax" or does it charge

If the Imperium uses a per main-world "head tax" then
that may help explain the Pixie's of the region. 
Convince the Scouts that the main world really is the
low population world, then the per main-world "head
tax" is based on that main world rather than the total
population of the system.

Thoughts?

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: UFO
In-Reply-To: <memo.479640@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020803212000.97843.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Megan Robertson <mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk>
wrote:
> Mexal.
> 
> (43 on Friday... "Second childhood? Heck, I haven't
> done with the first 
> one yet!")


A bout of 24-hour flu prevented me from much posting
or reading yesterday.

So let me wish a somewhat belated HAPPY BIRTHDAY to
you.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:21:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:21:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <3.0.5.16.20020803121034.44ff804c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <002c01c23b35$18ddf4e0$a211bd50@martinjd>

>
> You are still wedded to the idea that the Zho *wants* a fleet engagement.

My point precisely.

> You said it yourself: that's suicide.  So he keeps skirmishing.  Letting a
> massive fleet be seen in one place, which then jumps to several different
> worlds.  You come in and pick off a CruRon or two, but two jumps away,
> there is glowing slag where the orbital shipyards used to be.  Look up
> Quantril' Raiders, or the Rangers.  A diversified force can rip a superior
> force to shreds if they are careful.

Again. This is what I have in mind...




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Firearms in Vacuum
In-Reply-To: <20803.011715.6z8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c23b33$ea8b8c20$0c0a0a0a@glidenet.com>

Actually firearms work BETTER in a vacuum situation provided
that you overcome a few technical details...

expansion, contraction and cracking of materials due to extremes
in temperatures found in stellar environments.

Lubricants boiling away in vacuum, or gumming in near zero
temperatures.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com [mailto:tml-
> admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Leonard Erickson
> Sent: Saturday, 03 August, 2002 05:17
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Firearms in Vacumn
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > Leonard Erickson wrote:
> >>
> >> In mail you write:
> >>
> >> > "Robert Uhl " wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > No, but guns *have* been fired underwater (this is a somewhat
> >> >> > different situation than firing one with a barrel full of
water).
> >> >>
> >> >> Anyone here have any experience doing this?  I know that it's
> supposed
> >> >> to work, but I've never worked up the courage or folly necessary
to
> >> >> play with it.  I've a lot of respect for Things What Go Boom,
and
> I've
> >> >> little desire to annoy them...
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
> >> >> If your franchise is not secured by force of personal arms, you
are
> a
> >> >> subject, not a citizen.                               --H. Beam
> Piper
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> TML mailing list
> >> >> TML@travellercentral.com
> >> >> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> >> >
> >> > I launched a model rocket from underwater after seeing it in "The
> Model
> >> > Roceteer" It was very
> >> > impressive.
> >>
> >> Do you still have any copies of The Model Rocketeer? Mine got lost
a
> >> long time ago :-(
> >
> > I think so, I'll have a look next time I'm cleaning that part of the
> garage.
> > Anything in particular
> > or do you want that article on underwater launches?
> 
> Well, I'd like to have a set of the silly things, or at least a decent
> scan of them.
> 
> --
> Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:23:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:23:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <20020802231503.19852.60096.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com><3D4B3637.35538EB8@mailbag.com> <3.0.5.16.20020803114655.4717ae96@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <003301c23b35$47204d80$a211bd50@martinjd>

> Aieee!!! you said it three times!  At least no one has mentioned Leroy
yet...
> oh, damn.

Oh gods, people.

These things come in threes, right? Clif, Leroy....

And now I've mentioned Leroy twice!

We are doomed. Assemble the Penguins of Apocalypse!


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"
References: <B971637A.67A12%listmom@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <006701c23b36$590b9800$a211bd50@martinjd>

> > The answer? Learn to get along and abolish conflict.
> > Until then, we must accept the paradox and try to do the best we can not
to
> > cause needless suffering. But we will, all the same.

Okay. OBTRAV: I wrote a similar quote in Starmercs.


Or.... imagine how utterly riddled with compromise the 3I must be, trying to
find local get-along solutions to conflicts and issues that just won't go
away. No wonder there are so many nobles and diplomats out there trying to
keep everything down to an acceptable level.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] COTI website
Message-ID: <00af01c23b37$299584e0$a211bd50@martinjd>

Okay. All other stuff stopped as of now.

The reason I mentioned the site was that we've just added more crunchy
Traveller goodness, and maybe some tml members haven't seen it yet. And
we're paying for contributions, albeit not much.


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-to-the-Masses
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Gauss Round Velocity
In-Reply-To: <B96D6322.66F09%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c23b36$2a596690$0c0a0a0a@glidenet.com>

IMTU a gauss weapon barrel is slightly larger than the round itself.
The round floats within the magnetic field inside the barrel,
Thus the barrel does not ware out, only the coils.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com [mailto:tml-
> admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Tod Glenn
> Sent: Wednesday, 31 July, 2002 12:49
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Gauss Round Velocity
> 
> on 7/31/02 2:40 AM, Flykiller@aol.com at Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> 
> >
> > conventional barrels are just a piece of hardened steel, and even
they
> wear
> > out.  if you merely scratch the crown(?) of the barrel it can ruin
> accuracy.
> > I would think a gauss rifle barrel would be a very high-precision
piece
> of
> > electro-mechanical equipment, and that subjecting it to a rapid
series
> of
> > small sonic booms could disturb it a little.
> 
> 
> Certainly, that's possible.  I would expect that gauss rifle barrels
would
> be at least as durable at contemporary firearms.  In a military weapon
> that's typically in excess of 50,000 rounds.  Accuracy is not much of
an
> issue.  The required accuracy of a military weapon is not the same as
a
> target rifle.  The AK series is considered one of the premier military
> small
> arms, yet barely manages 5 MOA accuracy.
> 
> If we accept the gauss weapon as pictured and described on page 101 of
> Fire,
> Fusion and Steel first edition as canon, the barrel of a gauss rifle
is
> really nothing more than an electrical coil.  Certainly a structure
that
> can
> be made robust enough to be imperious to hypersonic shock.  If the
gauss
> rifle is some sort of rail gun weapon, the barrel is even simpler, and
> must
> be sufficiently strong to resist the intense magnetic forces acting to
rip
> the rail apart.  Again, and effect from sonic shockwave are likely to
be
> negligible.
> 
> Bear in mind that the air in the barrel is a gas, and highly
compressable.
> It is also probably at least a thousand times less dense than the
material
> the barrel is composed of.  That is certainly not to say that it will
be
> uneffected, buy any such effect are likely to be so small as to not be
> noteworthy.
> 
> On the other hand, there is not telling what effects the sudden and
> repeated
> surges of high powered magnetic flux will have on the material, or the
> firer
> for that matter.
> 
> --
> When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
> --
> Tod L Glenn
> webmaster@travellercentral.com
> http://www.travellercentral.com
> http://www.spinwardmarches.com
> http://www.solsec.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
Message-ID: <136.11daab1b.2a7daa90@aol.com>

 >Mines, even of a CAPTOR type, don't have much area coverage. You'd need a
 >lot of them to cover an area, though orbits and other choke points are a
 >possibility.

Well, yes, that's the point.

Does Traveller have any rules for mines?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"
In-Reply-To: <11c.14d66d9e.2a7ce27f@aol.com>
References: <11c.14d66d9e.2a7ce27f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <p04330101b972034c1c26@[143.232.119.186]>

At 3:38 AM -0400 8/3/02, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
>  >>>> "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!" >>>
>  >
>  >Under the rules of war, we've been discussing, if an enemy intentionally
>  >builds fortifications or other military structures among a civilian
>  >populance, then that enemy becomes rssponsible for the safety of those
>  >aforementioned civilians. If those civilians are actively and willfully
>  >supporting the enemy, then they are no longer considered noncombatants. So,
>  >it IS Al Quaida's fault and responsibility if the US intentionally seeks to
>  >bomb a legitimate military target that Al Qaida has hidden behind a human
>  >shield.
>
>I rest my case.
>
>"It's Milosivic's fault we bombed a convoy of farmers!"
>"It's Arafat's fault we bombed that apartment building!"
>"It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a convoy of inauguration representatives on
>the open road!"
>
>If I were to act with this level of disregard even in defense of my own
>children, I'd be in jail.  McVeigh was right -- "collateral damage" covers a
>multitude of sins.

Ironically, it is this attitude that, in fact, means that you will 
have _more_ civilian casualties.  It means that one side can put 
targets in the middle of civilians and be rewarded by their being 
protected or by their gaining condemnation of the other side.  This 
will only mean they will do it even more.  (Which, in fact, is what 
we see, the less moral are in fact doing just that).

If you really care about civilian casualties, you would join in say 
that that the world sould put pressure on those that deliberately 
court such deaths, those that use civilians as human shields....
-- 
_______________________________________________________________
David P. Summers, SETI Institute
Mail Stop 239-4
NASA Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000

650-604-6206
dsummers@mail.arc.nasa.gov

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <003301c23b35$47204d80$a211bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHGEECIKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

:
:

We are doomed. Assemble the Penguins of Apocalypse!

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

And us with a snowball's chance
 
jml
why penguins
I mean, take Howard Stern, he looks
and acts a lot more alien

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:12:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:12:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes
In-Reply-To: <4957.64.8.3.28.1028349006.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <4957.64.8.3.28.1028349006.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <p04330102b972055d98f1@[143.232.119.186]>

At 12:30 AM -0400 8/3/02, hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>Hello Folks,
>   Just a question of sorts...
>
>In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head tax" or does it charge
>an income tax on its citizens for its Imperial Budget requirements?  In
>short, if the Imperial government taxes 10% of a Gross Planetary Product,
>then it would in essence be an income tax.  If it charges a flat 500 CR
>per person on a planet, then it is a head tax.  Which is it?
>
>And I find it an interesting thought here.  If the Imperium charges say,
>3% of a planet's gross planetary product for its military taxes - this tax
>is on top of the local ruler's/government's tax.  How much in the way of
>taxes can a population take before its economy begins to stagnate?

My impression is that imperial taxes are very indirect (they collect 
money from the member states.  The only direct taxes are the fees 
they collect at starports?
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
Message-ID: <133.124edb2b.2a7daff5@aol.com>

 >> What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other 
 >> sensor systems 
 >> you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?
 >
 >I recommend you read Bruce Alan Macintosh's Definitive Sensor Rules for 
 >T4/FF&S2 for a complete discussion of sensors.  Passive sensors IRL 
 >would have ranges in space significanly better than those of active 
 >sensors such as radar.
 >
 >http://traveller.mu.org/house/sensor.rules.html

Great site, thanks.  But using this it looks like mines are right out.  I 
wish it were so easy to detect incoming asteroids and meteors in RL.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:26:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:26:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: troll optimization on the TML
Message-ID: <1aa.6256260.2a7db26e@aol.com>

 >> Mex, you need to have Fly run around the parade ground until 
 >> you get tired...
 >
 >Now THERE's a Good Idea :-)
 >
 >"Flykiller, front and centre!"

Ma'am, yes ma'am!  (thud thud thud thud)  Ma'am, Sgt. Flykiller reporting as 
ordered, ma'am!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:27:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:27:24 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was  COTI website)
In-Reply-To: <00af01c23b37$299584e0$a211bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <20020803222559.7D7BC2793F@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/03/02 at 10:45 PM,  "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
said:

>Okay. All other stuff stopped as of now.

>The reason I mentioned the site was that we've just added more
>crunchy Traveller goodness, and maybe some tml members haven't seen
>it yet. And we're paying for contributions, albeit not much.

Martin, Loren, Hunter, and all others involved in producing Traveller
oriented stuff,

IMO, I don't mind occasional reminders of "what you've got" and where
it is, I don't mind announcements when you've got something new and
exciting, I don't mind you asking us for our input on things, and I
don't mind you giving us your input on things. In fact, I appreciate
it, and hope you kept it up!  Now, if you started posting
advertisements every day and twice on Sundays, then that would be too
much, but none of you are, or are likely to start, doing that. 

So, to those that think Martan, Loren, et al are "spamming" this group
I politely offer the suggestion..."Go suck eggs!"  

And to the subjects of this post, I say, "Thank you for the work and
keeping us informed, and keep doing both!"

Eris,
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:29:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:29:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Gauss Round Velocity
In-Reply-To: <000c01c23b36$2a596690$0c0a0a0a@glidenet.com>
Message-ID: <B971A6EB.67A9C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/3/02 2:38 PM, Shawn R Sears at ShawnSears@telocity.com wrote:

> IMTU a gauss weapon barrel is slightly larger than the round itself.
> The round floats within the magnetic field inside the barrel,
> Thus the barrel does not ware out, only the coils.
> 

Just out of curiosity, why do the coils wear out?  There's no contact with
the projectile, just current generating a magnetic field, right?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] PTSD
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208031349080.22611-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208031349080.22611-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <m3ado3d16n.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Azalais Malfoy <tiamat@tsoft.com> writes:
>
> For instance, they found that certain forms of "debriefing" which
> involved discussing the incident over and over actually increased
> the likelihood of flashbacks.  Apparently this only seems to fix and
> anchor the memories.

That's what I've been saying for years: going on about a problem only
worsens it, like picking at a scab.  Better not to dwell on it, I'd
think, otherwise as you point out it becomes fixed in one's mind.

> The current trend on PTSD according to a lecture I attended recently
> is that there seems to be a window in which symptoms will or won't
> develop, and that judicious use of other forms of therapy including
> drugs to decrease the nervous system reactivity are more effective
> than "debriefing" or operant conditioning.  Apparently one's brain
> chemistry becomes much more reactive following a sexual assault or
> battle experience or other trauma... and whether or not it stays
> that way is the deciding factor for the development of PTSD.

So having a few drinks might help?  How amusing:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I'm reminded of the day my daughter came in, looked over my shoulder at
some Perl 4 code and said, `What is that, swearing?'       --Larry Wall

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:35:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:35:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <73.238e61b4.2a7db467@aol.com>

 >On the flip side, two of my friends (female friends) are more determined and
 >in absolute terms more capable than half the men in our martial arts class.
 >They're better than many who hold higher grades. They'd be barred under your
 >rules.

Fully capable men 40 years of age are also barred from enlistment.  There's a 
reason.

 >>that's not damning women, and that's not prejudice.
 >
 >Deciding the fate of half the human race - pre-judging their capabilities -
 >becuase of gender. Nah, that's notuing like prejudice.

Their fate?  I really don't think so.

 >Of course, the poor dears can't be expected to understand politics, manage
 >an estate or run a business either. Any you know? they couldn't do it. Not
 >until someone let them try.

They are trying it.  And it's causing far more damage than good.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:36:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:36:30 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEKPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEKPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <p04330103b9720a71cb73@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:47 PM -0700 8/2/02, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>  >From: "Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com>
>>Subject: [TML] re: Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
>traveller)
>>
>>With "freezer pop" soldiers, you might have people who wake
>>up, fight to the death for a week, then go back to sleep
>>until the next fight to the death crops up. No down time,
>>no ability to process what happened before it all starts
>>again.  Imagine the post-war condition of the average US
>
>For this reason, I doubt that the Imperial and Solomani militaries rely
>heavily on low berth for troop transportation.  The Zhodani may have an edge
>with better capabilities in psychology.
>
>>Forever War was a helluva book, btw.
>
>Agreed!


It seemed a good deal.  You aren't first into battle (you aren't any 
more likely to get killed since the unfrozen guys get killed first) 
and you don't have to deal with boredom between battles.  Odds are 
you sign up, get frozen, and wake up with all your pay waiting for 
you.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
Message-ID: <memo.581428@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <m3u1mbdi0l.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
> > Mind you, I was using an umbrella to crawl behind.  They couldn't
> > spot me visually, either.  I took a page from German tactics in
> > camouflage.
> 
> Oh, so you _weren't_ wearing a bright blue coat and bright red pants?
> However did you retain your lan?

I did on one occasion manage to hide in the middle of a clearing wearing a 
set of bright blue coveralls.

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:48:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:48:57 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
Message-ID: <memo.581429@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <200208031245370897.51623A1B@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
> BTW, if anyone is attending GenCon this year, be sure to stop by the 
> QLI booth (#841). Marc will be there as our guest and we'll have copies 
> of T20 Lite fresh off the presses!

Any plans for a presence at Gen Con UK?

Apart from the T20 lite scenario I'm writing, that is (characters 
courtesy of Mark Urbin). And our friends at BITS...

Oh, and you may have the scenario after Gen Con UK for the website.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.

PS. Hunter, did you get the e-mail I sent you?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Junk in space
In-Reply-To: <3865583847de.3847de386558@us.army.mil>
References: <3865583847de.3847de386558@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <20020804085749.A21861@freeman.little-possums.net>

john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:
> Why am I reminded of the "ravioli railgun" post of several years ago?  
[...]
> IIRC, one of our Scandinavian list members also has it archived.

Yes, I've got that one archived too. :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Off I go
Message-ID: <F253RGE9fkM0PhDK4TI00026147@hotmail.com>

I've sent an unsub request to the listmom, I should
be gone for a week.  If someone has an email for me,
it should make it to this email account, at least
until it fills with spam.  Much as I hate to walk out
in the middle of such interesting discussions, it is
family vacation time!

My sister's marriage to one of Uncle Sam's Misguided
Children has made the beachfront cabins of Camp Lejeaune
available to me and mine, so I hope in a day or two to
have my little ones playing in the water at a beach in
the Carolinas while I watch amphibious assault exercises
through my binoculars.  My brother-in-law has been a long
time away on the Tarawa, so my sister and her kids are
looking forward to some family company.

With any luck, a day trip to the USS North Carolina
will round out the visit.  I've been really looking
forward to it.

Leroy, Cliff, and now Flykiller...this list never
ceases to entertain!  :-)

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:00:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:00:04 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
Message-ID: <168.1196d69b.2a7dba32@aol.com>

 >>  >Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
 >>  >big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.
 >> 
 >> What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other sensor 
systems 
 >> you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?
 >
 >Well, the problem is that even if you have literally thousands of
 >them, the nearest one will likely pass tens of thousands of kilometres
 >from the target.  So they need pretty good sensors, which means
 >significant cost and size.
 > ....
 >Worse still, we're talking about insystem relative speeds which are
 >often on the order of megametres per second.  In a typical Traveller
 >space combat sequence, the ship gets a million kilometres away during
 >the combat round in which it is detected.

I was envisioning them as being simply chemical missiles.  In orbit around a 
gas giant would be a good place.  The ships have to go there, they can't go 
all that fast while scooping, and there is a horizon beyond which they'll 
have trouble seeing (if they can see through a horizon at all).  They 
shouldn't need tremendous sensors for such a location.  Or maybe they could 
be floating just below the surface of the water in a system with only water 
fuel available.  They wouldn't have to sense much, just a big thing blocking 
out the sun or maybe a large magnetic disturbance, and their target would 
hardly be moving.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <B97163D2.67A14%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <fc.1bc430d6.2a7d06b7@aol.com> <B97163D2.67A14%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020804090304.B21861@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> Nothing says that mines need to be static, waiting for something to hit
> them.  A mine could be nothing more than a large missile with high
> acceleration and short range waiting for some ship to come into range.

In fact, it pretty much *has* to be a missile.  Quite a lot bigger,
because it needs its own sensor array, more endurance than a normal
missile, and better defences.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: intrasystem jumps?
In-Reply-To: <200208031956.g73Jurw06881@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
References: <200208031956.g73Jurw06881@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <20020804090450.C21861@freeman.little-possums.net>

Steven Hudson wrote:

> From: Timothy Little
> > You'd be better off escorting them in normal space, since non-jump
> >ships are so much cheaper than jump capable ones.
 
>   Under G:T?

Yes.  That's the only version of Traveller I have now.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: UFO
Message-ID: <memo.581874@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <20020803212000.97843.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
> > Mexal.
> > 
> > (43 on Friday... "Second childhood? Heck, I haven't
> > done with the first 
> > one yet!")
> 
> 
> A bout of 24-hour flu prevented me from much posting
> or reading yesterday.
> 
> So let me wish a somewhat belated HAPPY BIRTHDAY to
> you.

Why, thank you kind sir. Hope you are feeling better now.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:10:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:10:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: troll optimization on the TML
Message-ID: <memo.581875@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <1aa.6256260.2a7db26e@aol.com>
>  >"Flykiller, front and centre!"
> 
> Ma'am, yes ma'am!  (thud thud thud thud)  Ma'am, Sgt. Flykiller 
> reporting as ordered, ma'am!

"Don't call me Ma'am, I work for a living!"

[And there we'd better leave it, as drilling you is not really very 
Traveller-related!]

Hugs and kisses,

Sergeant Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Bryn=20Monnery?=)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Gauss Round Velocity
Message-ID: <20020803231411.23203.qmail@web13903.mail.yahoo.com>

>>The gauss rifle fires 4 mm, 4 gram needles
(silently) at 1500 m/s, with a Striker/MegaTraveller
penetration of 7 out 
to 600 m and 4 dice of damage (and 3 attacks if you
fire a 10-round 
burst):<<

1,500mps is believable, the highest MV for a real
service weapon I know of is the M-16 firing 5.56mm US
(not 5.56mm NATO) which was a 3.56g round going
1050mps.

However, throwing 4g that fast? That's an ME of
4,500j, sufficient to penetrate 22mm of armour steel
at close range, recoil is less than an SLR though
(only 6 ms-1kg-1).

4,500mps is ridiculous though, twice the muzzle energy
of a .50 Cal, penetrating 68mm of armour steel. 

Bryn


=====
"I knew it on the roof that night. We were brothers, Roy Batty and I! Combat models of the highest order. We had fought in wars not yet dreamed of... in vast nightmares still unnamed. We were the new people... Roy and me and Rachael! We were made for this world. It was ours!"

- Final Line of Blade Runner: Original Preview Cut

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you'll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <168.1196d69b.2a7dba32@aol.com>
References: <168.1196d69b.2a7dba32@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020804093340.D21861@freeman.little-possums.net>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> I was envisioning them as being simply chemical missiles.  In orbit
> around a gas giant would be a good place.

Except for one thing: it's wartime.  The defenders have been there
first with their own sensor platforms and semi-autonomous missiles,
less expensive per unit than yours for the same capability.  Probably
also a few large system monitors and at least a few dozen SDBs.
Furthermore, your launches are detected and tracked automatically and
your mines will be shot before emplacing themselves.

We are talking about a system with an annual economy of around 10 TCr,
remember.  They can afford to spend 10 GCr per year on gas-giant
defence even in peacetime, let alone war.


>  The ships have to go there,

No.  Local traffic refuels at their starports, which are in turn
refuelled from any of thousands of locations, almost certainly
including the very well-defended surface of the mainworld.  Hydrogen
is *not* a scarce resource by any stretch of the imagination.

*You* are far more likely to need to go to the gas giant than the
defenders are, since you don't have the luxury of hanging around to
exploit other sources.  Mining and patrolling the gas giant makes
perfect sense for the defenders.  It makes no sense for you.


>  Or maybe they could be floating just below the surface of the water
> in a system with only water fuel available.They wouldn't have to
> sense much, just a big thing blocking out the sun or maybe a large
> magnetic disturbance, and their target would hardly be moving.

"Big thing blocking out the sun"!?

Do you have any idea how *huge* a planet is?  Earth's oceans cover
more than three hundred million square kilometres.  Even if the ships
coming in to refuel were absolutely blind and picked their refuelling
locations completely at random, and were a hundred metres in diameter,
any given mine would have a one in a hundred billion chance of having
a ship "block out the sun".  Can you drop even one *million* mines?

I think you need to run the numbers a bit.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:37:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:37:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes
References: <memo.572871@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <000301c23b46$ef5882e0$2a74fea9@imogen>

Mexal wrote:
> IMTU, the Imperium taxes its member planets. How that planet
> chooses to raise the money to meet the Imperial tax bill is up
> to them.
> 
> Most just hike their own income tax a fraction of a percent. 
> 
> Some, especially those who are lukewarm about their membership,
> charge a separate 'Imperial Tax' to make the point that people
> are being charged for the privilege.
> 
> Some levy the tax on what they perceive as being the benefits
> of belonging to the Imperium, such as interstellar trade.

This is similar to how I treat taxes IMTU also.  (Actually,  'cos
most of my campaigns have the PCs still in active service its not
usually a feature,  however  ...)  I  also  tend  to  relate  tax
complexity to society's age (look at population, law  level,  and
government type for implied  indicators).  Young  societies  will
only have a few key taxes (whether poll tax, income tax, or sales
tax, maybe a couple of them).  But as societies age more and more
taxes are added.  Older societies have complex  tax  systems  ...
including needing permits (with fees) for just about  everything.
Poll tax, income tax, sales tax, business tax, air/raft  tax,  TV
ownership tax, visitor's tax, residency  tax,  fuel  tax,  excess
size on public transport tax, driving  in  congested  areas  tax,
driving on fast road tax, inheritance tax, internet  data  volume
tax, pet ownership tax, book tax, fast food litter  tax,  capital
gains tax, import tax, export tax, customs duty tax, labour union
membership tax, recreational drug tax (alcohol, tobacco,  other),
education tax, stock market tax, cargo broker  tax,  travel  tax,
hospital tax, legal tax, gun ownership tax, ammunition tax, sword
ownership tax, radio  broadcast  tax,  cellphone  tax,  unmuzzled
Vargr tax, consumption of meat tax, marriage tax, pregnancy  tax,
temple tax, etc, etc, etc ...

At some point tax ceases to be about raising funds and becomes an
instrument  for  social  engineering.  So   a   government   with
separatist leanings on a  world  with  an  "Imperial  Tax"  might
increase it higher than the world's actual Imperial contribution.

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prejudice (OT)
Message-ID: <55.2b3ad1ac.2a7dc32f@aol.com>

 >> There is no right to be in the military.
 >
 >Okay. "I believe that people have the basic right to self-determination. If
 >the military exists and some people want to be in it, they have the right to
 >try to meet its absolute standards and if they do, to be accepted. IE the
 >right not to be debarred from service on the grounds of a generalization."
 >
 >Is that better?

It's a restatement of the same thing.  No, I subscribe completely to the 
concept of "the needs of the service".  The service collects volunteers it 
finds acceptable, or drafts those it requires.  It just as easily dismisses 
anyone it thinks it doesn't need.  It sets its standards because it knows 
(hopefully) what needs to be done and how to do it.  It is not a business 
opportunity, or a club, or a government social agency.  It is a serious 
organization with a difficult job, and there is no right to its membership.

The military rejects enlistment of those 32 and older (if I recall 
correctly), because of the problems it would encounter if it did accept such 
enlistments.  This sweeping generalization rejects over half of our 
population out of hand, even though some could do the job, but the 
generalization is accepted because the generalization is valid.  Do you think 
it's valid?  I do.  I think that similar evidence exists for a similar 
sweeping generalization of female enlistment as well.  Some people find this 
offensive, but the facts remain, and only political pressures keep them from 
being responded to.  I am putting the needs of the service first.  Others 
have other priorities.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:41:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:41:06 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
References: <168.1196d69b.2a7dba32@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00d301c23b48$adaa52e0$a211bd50@martinjd>

>
> I was envisioning them as being simply chemical missiles.  In orbit around
a
> gas giant would be a good place.  The ships have to go there, they can't
go
> all that fast while scooping, and there is a horizon beyond which they'll
> have trouble seeing (if they can see through a horizon at all).  They
> shouldn't need tremendous sensors for such a location.  Or maybe they
could
> be floating just below the surface of the water in a system with only
water
> fuel available.  They wouldn't have to sense much, just a big thing
blocking
> out the sun or maybe a large magnetic disturbance, and their target would
> hardly be moving.

This type of cheap CAPTOR type mine isn't much good against a serisou
warship, but as a deterrent to small vessels or merchant-based corsairs it,
an option (IMO). No good in deep space but seeded at a choke point like
optimium skimming level they might be dense enough to be useful.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:43:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:43:11 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
References: <memo.581429@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <00e701c23b48$fd6a9560$a211bd50@martinjd>

> 
> Oh, and you may have the scenario after Gen Con UK for the website.
> 

You're a sweetie.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:45:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:45:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Declarations of War
References: <19b.65b1e1c.2a7d49d4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4C1847.3361F3DE@mindspring.com>

DN: What is the status of his fleet at Cipango and Cronor?  If he has that much out in my areas,
then his central fleet is weakened.  If I can put two task  forces each on Cipango and maybe Ninjar
then _his_ logistics train will be cut entirely, and they'll provide a welcoming committee to any
Zhodie ships that straggle back home looking for support.  Further I'll send the fleet raider task
force to shoot up whatever they can in other worlds in that area. Two can play this game, only I'll
do it with concentrated task forces. Let the consule at Cronor yell at _his_ commander:  "There are
a thousand frigates at Querion!  Do something!"
I'll leave Jewell exposed and do that.  Then I'll send out some of my task forces individually to
locate and mop up these isolated forces, using an extensive scout network to relay information on
their activities and ship counts.  I'll plot their courses and attempt to determine where they want
to go.  Not that this would be hard to guess anyway -- I'm sure the Zhodies will bypass Pscias and
go for Rethe if they can.
 
A: Zho fleet elements will strike at weak targets on the border, but you won't know if they retired
afterward or are advancing.
 
DN: Assume they're advancing.
 
A: Your intelligence will be a mess of vessel reports,
 
DN: This can be sorted out.  It may take a few hours, but I'm sure my staff is efficient.( A flurry
of coughing breaks out) and while the attacks on minor worlds are trivial from a military
standpoint, those are imperial citizens being shot up. Yes, they will have to wait. Soon it will be
the Zhodies turn to be shot up.
 
A: Some border  worlds will be assaulted by ground forces and placed under occupation. The subsector
dukes will want those worlds retaken. They'll want the raids stopped.
 
DN: Everything in due time.  The Dukes will have to be big boys.  And likely they are.  When the
Zhodie fleet has been rolled back, I'll send in the troop transports.  Not until then. You're trying
to make me panic.  I won't. If the Zhodies have scattered a lot of their fleet through my sector
then I'll roll them up one at a time with my task forces at no risk to myself. It'll take a while,
but it will be done.  Zhodane is mostly at tech 14, and tech 14 wallows in the mud against tech 15.
I've tried every possible Zhodie fleet combination against the Spinward Marches fleet that I can
think of, pitting 7 AE worlds against what Mora and Trin can build, and his only chance is to stick
together. Instead, I will make the Zhodies panic. In 500 years the Imperium has never taken
offensive action against the Zhodane. The Imperium has always reacted, defended, retreated, lost
worlds. I'll make the Zhodies defend and react to me.  I will cut their lines, sit astride their
repair facilities, and put capital ships where they have not been for 500 years, forcing the Zhodies
to
come to me. Riverland and Cronor used to be Imperial. I will have them back. When the Imperial Fleet
reinforcements arrive, I just might get them.


-From a briefing on a proposed Zhodani campaign to the admirals of the Imperial fleets of the Domain
of Deneb aboard the newly commissioned 'Duke of Deneb' 188-1118.
* A autotranscriber malfunction rendered the Archdukes colloquial 'Joies" into 'Zhodies'

IMMTU ;)
Thanks everyone!
-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:47:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:47:12 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was  COTI website)
References: <20020803222559.7D7BC2793F@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00fa01c23b49$63e1f7c0$a211bd50@martinjd>

> 
> So, to those that think Martan, Loren, et al are "spamming" this group
> I politely offer the suggestion..."Go suck eggs!"  

Heh. If you can't announce trav content on the trav website, what's it for?

That said, the "spam" reference was, I belive, tongue in cheek.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:49:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:49:23 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
References: <136.11daab1b.2a7daa90@aol.com>
Message-ID: <010901c23b49$c1301380$a211bd50@martinjd>

> >Mines, even of a CAPTOR type, don't have much area coverage. You'd need a
>  >lot of them to cover an area, though orbits and other choke points are a
>  >possibility.
>
> Well, yes, that's the point.
>
> Does Traveller have any rules for mines?
>

Now there's an idea for a Traveller's Aide... Mines, Missiles and Drones.
Anyone think they can get 15,000 words and a few T20 ship/item designs out
of the topic?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:51:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:51:08 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <200207300931.43410.red@archonet.com>
References: <a1.2b0beec6.2a7744c0@aol.com>
 <m3n0savvj9.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> <200207300931.43410.red@archonet.com>
Message-ID: <p04330105b9721bbfdb97@[143.232.119.186]>

One thing to remember is that there is a psychological difference 
between having to take direct action that will result in your death 
and doing something this is likely to get you killed.  That last bit 
of hope makes a big difference.  I was at the Texas Air Museum (is 
that what it was called?) and they had one of the buzz bombs the 
Germans were rigging to be piloted.  While it was recognized that the 
mission was likely to be suicidal (the pilots signed a form stating 
they knew that) they did give them parachutes so that they could at 
least _try_ and get out.  (though at dive speeds of 500 mph that 
wasn't considered likely....)
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:54:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:54:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Declarations of War
In-Reply-To: <3D4C1847.3361F3DE@mindspring.com>
References: <19b.65b1e1c.2a7d49d4@aol.com> <3D4C1847.3361F3DE@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m31y9fcxd9.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

I'm afraid that your post was well-nigh unreadable, as it was not
wrapped at 80 chars...

72 is even better: it allows folks who do not re-flow text to quote it
without running over.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The pistol is not a weapon; it is an impertinence.  If two men are to
kill one another, they should do so face-to-face, not from a distance,
like vile highwaymen.      --Arturo Perez-Reverte, The Fencing Master

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] prejudice (OT)
Message-ID: <15f.11b58134.2a7dc76b@aol.com>

 >I notice that you're "done here" about the fleet thing. From where I'm
 >sitting, that seems to mean you've dismissed all the arguments I raised and
 >decided that you don't need to think about them. You still haven't
 >adequately explained what you mean to do about an enemy that won't give you
 >that pre-arranged setpiece. Or in any other "real war" situation either.

I think your notion of "real war" and mine are different.  I've explained 
mine over and over again as adequately as I could, and I've tried to respond 
to yours, but I don't feel we're connecting, and I don't feel like my view of 
it is being addressed.  Your stuff was all good, and I didn't dismiss 
anything, but going on 0300 or so I just felt like I was beginning to repeat 
myself, and I'm losing sleep trying to keep up with this mailing list because 
it takes me so long to think and reply.  I think the only way to actually 
address the issues we both brought up is not by talking but by an actual 
campaign game, complete with full background, to see who has it right.  I 
think I'm right, but heck, I'm a virgin, I've never played, so I don't 
actually know.  I'd love to run a game, but I don't see how we could.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 18:09:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 17:09:37 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
References: <15f.11b58134.2a7dc76b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000601c23b4c$a7ca4700$bc0cbd50@martinjd>

I think the only way to actually
> address the issues we both brought up is not by talking but by an actual
> campaign game, complete with full background, to see who has it right.

I think this is the only way - a campaign game, with political rules and
such like. It'd be more simulation than game, but what an interesting
exercise!

Meantime, as we've already agreed, we're coming from such wildly different
points of view that there's no point in further argument... but for the
record, I think you *would* beat me in a HG game, because your viewpoint is
(IMO) more aimed at operating within the game parameters, and your designs
better optimised for that.

But anyway... let's put this interesting debate to bed...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 18:11:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 17:11:13 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Military Psychology
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEKPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <p04330103b9720a71cb73@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <3D4C70A1.852C61C@mindspring.com>

"David P. Summers" wrote:
> 
> At 9:47 PM -0700 8/2/02, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> >  >From: "Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com>
> >
> >>With "freezer pop" soldiers, you might have people who wake
> >>up, fight to the death for a week, then go back to sleep
> >>until the next fight to the death crops up. No down time,
> >>no ability to process what happened before it all starts
> >>again.  Imagine the post-war condition of the average US
> >
> >For this reason, I doubt that the Imperial and Solomani militaries rely
> >heavily on low berth for troop transportation.  The Zhodani may have an edge
> >with better capabilities in psychology.

> It seemed a good deal.  You aren't first into battle (you aren't any
> more likely to get killed since the unfrozen guys get killed first)
> and you don't have to deal with boredom between battles.  Odds are
> you sign up, get frozen, and wake up with all your pay waiting for
> you.
> --IMMTU the frozen watch are a volonteer career force . They are wakened as needed and also every four years for additional training and acclimatization(R&R) if not woken earlier. They receive full pay, and must serve 60 years with wakened time counting double for time in service.



-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 18:21:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 17:21:12 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
In-Reply-To: <memo.581429@cix.compulink.co.uk>
References: <memo.581429@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <200208032020140469.53026F37@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 8/3/2002 at 11:47 PM mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:

>In-Reply-To: <200208031245370897.51623A1B@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
>> BTW, if anyone is attending GenCon this year, be sure to stop by the 
>> QLI booth (#841). Marc will be there as our guest and we'll have copies 
>> of T20 Lite fresh off the presses!
>
>Any plans for a presence at Gen Con UK?
>
>Apart from the T20 lite scenario I'm writing, that is (characters 
>courtesy of Mark Urbin). And our friends at BITS...

Woohoo! No official plans for this year, but next year we will arrange a=
 booth. In the meantime, would copies of T20 Lite to hand out help? I think=
 we have enough time that I might be able to ship some to you after I get=
 back from GenCon here.

>Oh, and you may have the scenario after Gen Con UK for the website.

Thanks!

>PS. Hunter, did you get the e-mail I sent you?

I just went and looked at it after you mentioned it, I must have missed it=
 previously. I sometimes miss them if they come to the email address I use=
 for the TML because they get mixed in with all of the other posts. I do=
 apologize! A reply is on its way.

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 18:30:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Aug  3 17:30:13 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
Message-ID: <F22igG68YuXKL951y1M0002578e@hotmail.com>

From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com>

     "I think he is just trying to draw attention to the new Traveller 
webzine we have opened, rather than anything specific."


Mr. Gordon,

     Why, that is splendid news, sir!  I wish you every success with the new 
webzine.  "More" definitely IS "merrier"!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 18:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Aug  3 17:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] COTI website
Message-ID: <F206YSDMyZFlAWAaPJb00000025@hotmail.com>

From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>

     "The reason I mentioned the site was that we've just added more crunchy 
Traveller goodness, and maybe some tml members haven't seen it yet."


Mr. Dougherty,

     I hadn't and thanks for the heads up!  Mr. Gordon already posted the 
great news about the launch of your webzine.  "More" definitely IS 
"merrier"!
     Thanks again.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 18:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 17:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
Message-ID: <memo.582869@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <200208032020140469.53026F37@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
> Woohoo! No official plans for this year, but next year we will arrange 
> a booth. In the meantime, would copies of T20 Lite to hand out help? I 
> think we have enough time that I might be able to ship some to you 
> after I get back from GenCon here.

It would be good to have you if you can make it. I'll keep you posted on 
dates/locations for next year as soon as WE know :-)

> >Oh, and you may have the scenario after Gen Con UK for the website.
> 
> Thanks!

My pleasure.

> >PS. Hunter, did you get the e-mail I sent you?
> 
> I just went and looked at it after you mentioned it, I must have missed 
> it previously. I sometimes miss them if they come to the email address 
> I use for the TML because they get mixed in with all of the other 
> posts. I do apologize! A reply is on its way.

Reply received & responded to. Sorry, only e-mail I had for you. T'other 
one now safely tucked away for future correspondence.

Oh yes, copies of T20 Lite would be handy. I'll e-mail a postal address 
for you.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 18:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug  3 17:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Gauss Round Velocity
In-Reply-To: <20020803231411.23203.qmail@web13903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B971C9C6.67B02%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/3/02 4:14 PM, Bryn Monnery at littlegreenmen.geo@yahoo.com wrote:

> 
> 1,500mps is believable, the highest MV for a real
> service weapon I know of is the M-16 firing 5.56mm US
> (not 5.56mm NATO) which was a 3.56g round going
> 1050mps.

And the SPIW built by AAI was capable of firing flechettes at around 1500
m/s back in the 1960s.  Also, Hughes managed to get a modified M-16 to fire
at almost double the velocity of a standard round as part of their CAP
project in the mid 1980s.
> 
> However, throwing 4g that fast? That's an ME of
> 4,500j, sufficient to penetrate 22mm of armour steel
> at close range, recoil is less than an SLR though
> (only 6 ms-1kg-1).
> 
> 4,500mps is ridiculous though, twice the muzzle energy
> of a .50 Cal, penetrating 68mm of armour steel.
> 
> Bryn

Not so remarkable when one looks at the performance of current railguns.  We
are speaking of TL12 technology, after all.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 19:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 18:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
In-Reply-To: <memo.582869@cix.compulink.co.uk>
References: <memo.582869@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <200208032111180685.533130CF@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 8/4/2002 at 1:43 AM mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:

>In-Reply-To: <200208032020140469.53026F37@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
>> Woohoo! No official plans for this year, but next year we will arrange 
>> a booth. In the meantime, would copies of T20 Lite to hand out help? I 
>> think we have enough time that I might be able to ship some to you 
>> after I get back from GenCon here.
>
>It would be good to have you if you can make it. I'll keep you posted on 
>dates/locations for next year as soon as WE know :-)

I'm not sure if I can make it, but I would love to and will try like hell!=
 If I can't however, Martin can.

Hunter


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 19:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 18:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Gauss Round Velocity
Message-ID: <200208040113.LZX01145@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>Not so remarkable when one looks at the performance of 
>current railguns.  We are speaking of TL12 technology, after 
>all.

That, and today it's not the size of the rails that are the 
problem (or even the wear and tear).  It's the power 
conditioning equipment.  They're already making progress 
enough to replace the aircraft carrier catapult with a 
railgun.  The power conditioning equipment is already orders 
of magnitude smaller than 10 years ago.  By the time we reach 
TL12...
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 19:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Sat Aug  3 18:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Paging Martin Dougherty
In-Reply-To: <00fa01c23b49$63e1f7c0$a211bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <20020804013343.15643.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>

Martin,

I hadn't heard from you, and was wondering if you got
the info you had asked for.

Let me know, I can send it again if you haven't gotten
it yet.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 19:35:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug  3 18:35:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Gauss Round Velocity
In-Reply-To: <200208040113.LZX01145@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B971D2B3.67B15%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/3/02 6:13 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> That, and today it's not the size of the rails that are the
> problem (or even the wear and tear).  It's the power
> conditioning equipment.  They're already making progress
> enough to replace the aircraft carrier catapult with a
> railgun.  The power conditioning equipment is already orders
> of magnitude smaller than 10 years ago.  By the time we reach
> TL12...

Just in the last couple of years, compulsator power has gone  while size
continues to decline.

For those interested in railguns in general, try
http://home.insightbb.com/~jmengel4/rail/rail-intro.html
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 20:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sat Aug  3 19:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
References: <20020803223629.15105.10842.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <005301c23b5b$c2967c20$2a5d8690@computer>

From: Tyge
> The second thing is that climate unless you do have a uniform world (like
> Venus) will vary, so what is standard climate is a bit like saying "this
> is a mountain world". Rather Star-Wars generalization. A world humans
> would endure on likely would not be so generic.

Actually I've been playing with this silly idea a bit over the last few
months.

If a world is sparsely populated enough, the entire population might live in
a single small area. This area would then be "the world" as far as climate,
geography and so on go.

I was working on a bit of a heretical almost-not-Traveller system, where
systems, worlds and so on are abstracted down to a few important areas, like
the area around the starport, the patch of space around the mainworld, and
so on. (If the PCs go outside the "important areas", new "important areas"
can be created.)

Handling worlds "Star Wars style" would be perfectly acceptable in this
case, as long as you understand what you are doing.

Then again, my other heresy is a bit of a fondness for placing colonies on
non-habitable worlds. Basically I see it as simpler to establish an
artificial terrestrial ecosystem than to muck about with an existing
non-terrestrial one. Such colonies would pretty much be domed, and possess a
relatively uniform climate.

Terraforming could occur in the long-term, of course. These are the most
plausible "habitable worlds", IMHO, since they are made to be suitable for
human settlement. But of course, terraforming takes time, and the scale (and
violence!) of the chemical reactions involved suggest that it would take a
long time. You are not just changing the composition of the atmosphere - you
are changing the composition of the crust. Even if you can force the change
to occur very quickly, I doubt that the geology would settle down in much
less than a thousand years or so. That's the blink of an eye in geological
terms, of course.

A terraformed world would have a full set of climates. The situation where
settlement is limited to a specific area might still occur.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com







From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 20:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 19:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
In-Reply-To: <F22igG68YuXKL951y1M0002578e@hotmail.com>
References: <F22igG68YuXKL951y1M0002578e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <200208032212560742.53699E59@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 8/4/2002 at 12:29 AM Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com>
>
>     "I think he is just trying to draw attention to the new Traveller 
>webzine we have opened, rather than anything specific."
>
>Mr. Gordon,
>
>     Why, that is splendid news, sir!  I wish you every success with the
>new 
>webzine.  "More" definitely IS "merrier"!

Thank you sir! I would like to note that the CotI webzine is for ALL=
 versions of our favorite game, not just T20. We're happy to consider=
 articles and material for publication for any ruleset and milieu, along=
 with 'variant' articles as well.

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 20:40:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 19:40:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Superstition (and movies)
Message-ID: <102.1921e4ba.2a7dede0@aol.com>

>>Several years ago, I was toying with the notion of writing a book of war 
>>movie reviews discussing the relative level of accuracy of each (although I 

>>think it has already been done). GETTYSBURG is one of my faves in this 
>>regard. 
>
>Great film.  "General, I have no division..."

I'm torn as to which scene I like better . . . Sgt. Kilrain declaiming on why 
he's fighting the war ("I'll be treated as _I_ deserve, not as my father 
deserved."), Colonel Chamberlain declaiming on why HE'S fighting the war, or 
the whole Little Round Top sequence, or Lee meditating on soldiering's one 
great trap, or Lee reading the riot act to Stuart ("Your cavalry, General, 
are the eyes of this army . . . without them, we are made blind.") -- or any 
one of a dozen or so more. 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 21:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 20:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Superstition (and movies)
Message-ID: <200208040300.MAB00894@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

LKW says
>I'm torn as to which scene I like better . . .

Nope.  Although I hated the movie Blues Brothers 2000, 
there's a scene where Dan Aykroyd "rallies the troops" with a 
major slam against the current music scene.

I have given a similar speech to youth at a Wizards of the 
Coast store who thought that video games were more fun than 
roleplaying games.  Not sure if I got any converts...

But I did drop Loren's name.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 21:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 20:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
Message-ID: <200208040317.MAB01365@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

(We should come up with a longer list of names below)

You may go play video games if you wish.

Remember this: Walk away now and you walk away from your 
interest in history, your ability to tell a good story, your 
ability to translate dreams into reality; leaving the next 
generation with nothing but recycled, unimaginative first-
person shooters, online quasi-historical strategy games, yet 
another multiplayer NFL game, violence-laden driving 
simulations, and mindless revisions of innumerable cute 
Japanese animations. Depart now and you forever separate 
yourselves from the vital gaming legacies of James Dunnigan, 
Steve Jackson, Gary Gygax, Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank 
Chadwick, Andrew Keith, William Keith, John Harshman, 
Professor Barker, 
and Richard Tucholka.

(Doug says, 'Who is Richard Tucholka?' )

Turn your backs now and you snuff out the fragile candles of 
Board Gaming, Miniatures, Fantasy and Science Fiction 
Roleplaying, and when those flames flicker and expire, the 
light of the world is extinguished because the creative 
thought which has moved mankind through the decades leading 
to the millenium will wither and die on the vine of 
abandonment and neglect. 


________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 22:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 21:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22C8B@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <20803.205539.2T1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Time-Travel is a huge no-no. Do I have something against it? Yes and no.
> It's entertaining and fascinating to speculate on, but it would seriously
> unbalance a campaign.
> I also like the idea that consequences of one's actions are
> irreversable...Time Travel far too often gives one an out to correct
> mistakes.

Well, the theoretical work that physicists have done on the possibility
of time travel in the real world says that two things will be true if
it's possible:

1. You can't travel back before the instant the machione is first
   activated.

2. You can't alter the past. You'd have free will to the exact extent
   that you *don't* know what happened. 

This can frustrate the hell out of people. <eg>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 22:21:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sat Aug  3 21:21:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Superstition (and Movies)
In-Reply-To: <d.2aca729a.2a7ca6f7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4D53F6.19862.BBFCC9@localhost>

On 2 Aug 2002, at 23:24, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> Several years ago, I was toying with the notion of writing a book of war movie
> reviews discussing the relative level of accuracy of each (although I think it
> has already been done). GETTYSBURG is one of my faves in this regard. 

My one beef with the movie (other than those I have with the battle itself) is 
that if Pickett had as many men in real life as he had in the movie, he'd 
have been across that field and half way to Washington before the final 
credits.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 22:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sat Aug  3 21:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <3.0.5.16.20020803121034.44ff804c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <008701c23b70$f1af5210$7400a8c0@matt>

> Which Roman was it that got ripped to shreds in Germany?

Varus, IIRC

Matt



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 22:41:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sat Aug  3 21:41:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Landgrab
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMEFHIKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

I'm landgrabbing Macene, Rhylanor 2612


________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 23:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 22:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <3.0.5.16.20020803123126.44ff6796@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3D4CB61E.AF2B843D@mindspring.com>

"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:
> 
> At 11:12 AM 8/3/2002 EDT, you wrote:
> 
> >And that will work in my favor, as much of the Spinward Population lives in
> >the highly protected worlds of Trin, Mora, Glisten, Rhylanor, and Palique,
> >and the main fleet is very close by to Rethe, Louzy, Lunion, Jewell, and
> >Vilis.  That's almost half of the Spinward Marches on those planets alone.
> 
> My Sword World allies will tie down the Lunion and Glisten fleets. 

The Glisten Fleet is waiting to slag the Swordies and their Forinian
allies. 

> Vargr forces will raid the Coreward ends of Regina and Aramis to draw off fleet
> elements from those subsectors.  Raiders and deep penetration fleets will
> be sent into Regina and Villis for commerce and raiding and hit&run attacks
> against starports capable of repairing navy ships.
> 
> My main thrust will come at Louzy/Jewell and Grant/Jewell.  Cutting off the
> Jewell cluster.  Louzy has no gas giant, and Grant only two, making these
> systems easy to hold.
> 
> With the door barred, and my penetrators wrecking havoc, I move on the
> Jewell cluster itself.  Ruby (1005), Emerald (1006), and Mongo (1204) are
> the first targets. All are relatively low tech, and only Mongo has a Naval
> base.  From there, I send more forces to Lysen (1307).  Lysen doesn't have
> enough people or technology to put up a stiff resitience.  These moves
> would be on a timed basis, with fleets moving according to schedule.
> 
> Once everyhing was secure, I'd move the bulk of my fleets to Jewell (1106)
> along with the invasion force.  Jewell would be a tough nut to crack
> 
> (Divergence, I just had the most amazing case of deja-vu.  I clearly
> remembered typing that exact sentiece before, on this computer.  Weird)
> 
> With you reacting to my previous moves, I have you out of position.  I can
> begin the bombardment of targets on the planet with minimal interference.
> I would send troops down *as quickly as is possible* because in orbit, they
> are targets.  On the ground, they are an asset.  My forces at the other
> worlds have couriers stationed with them; ordered to jump out *the moment*
> a large Imperial force engages my force.  This will give me at least a
> little warning.
> 
> Obviously, there are holes in this attack, since I just came up with it.
> The biggest hole I see is a fleet coming through the Federation of Arden on
> my Rimward flank.  Placing pickets at Zircon (1110), Utoland (1209), Pequan
> (1210), and 871-438 (1510) would give me warning, although I am probably
> short on ships at this point.  Just have to hope that the raiders and
> Swordies are doing their job.
> 
> There, a clear plan with goals.  That's what the Imperial player would also
> need.  There is never a time when allowing massive friendly civilian
> casualties is acceptable.
> --
> 
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 23:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shadowcat)
Date: Sat Aug  3 22:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
In-Reply-To: <200208040317.MAB01365@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D4C6254.25855.23272CD@localhost>

(Doug says, 'Who is Richard Tucholka?' )

Stalking the Night Fantastic, Fringeworthy, FTL 2448


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 23:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 22:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] missiles
Message-ID: <74.20c8274f.2a7e1200@aol.com>

 >It [MT] states that a 100 ton bay used as a magazine can hold
 >13500 missiles, but not launch them,

If the bay was tightly packed with missiles that would indicate that each 
missile container is 10 inches square and less than 5 feet tall.  Such 
missiles will be transported over long distances and subject to much shock 
during transport, and may sit in their canisters for years, so the canister 
will be heavily padded and sealed to provide a long shelf-life and to reduce 
the chance of sympathetic explosions.  Is 10 inches by 5 feet of padded 
cannister really big enough to hold a spacegoing missile?

CT HG2 says zero about it, so I just decided that some of a 50 ton or 100 ton 
missile bay was filled with guidance equipment and gunner positions, with the 
rest of the bay occupied by preloaded sealed cannisters containing each 
salvo.  The gunners initiate launch, the cannister pops open and out go 30 
missiles.  I chose 30 because it seemed to me that a bay would gain better 
use of its missiles than a turret battery because it had better guidance 
equipment rather than simply because it used more missiles, and that made 
sense because missile batteries have to bear before they can shoot.  Having 
each salvo in its own cannister also would make it easy to transport, load, 
unload, and mix-and-match.

 >Not that they've ever fired all 50 b/r's. I think the most
 >they ever used in one engagement is 6 b/r's.

You never can have too many missiles.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 23:15:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug  3 22:15:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
In-Reply-To: <3D4C6254.25855.23272CD@localhost>
Message-ID: <B9720629.67BC4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/3/02 9:08 PM, Shadowcat at res053z0@gten.net wrote:

> (Doug says, 'Who is Richard Tucholka?' )
> 
> Stalking the Night Fantastic, Fringeworthy, FTL 2448
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

Hey, I still have my copy of FTL 2448 somewhere.  Fringeworthy too.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 23:16:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 22:16:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for the Atro-genius Types (was: System Gen
 Help)
In-Reply-To: <20020803210827.89257.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <c9.261a11c4.2a7d38e2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803175336.3b4f0dc8@pop.mindspring.com>

At 02:08 PM 8/3/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>Would it be possible for a planet be captured into an
>L4 or L5 point on a Gas Giant?

Anything is *possible*, but it would be a one in a billion shot.

1. The developing mass of the gas giant will disrupt planetary formation,
so it would need to be a captured world.

2. It would have to enter the system on the *exact* right course at a
precise time at the right speed.

3. The planet would need to enter on the plane of the rest of the system,
and not encounter anything else.

This is incredibly unlikely. Even if it has happened, it's most likely to
be around an outer gas giant and be a fairly small world.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 23:17:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 22:17:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <73.238e61b4.2a7db467@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803180658.3b4f38f8@pop.mindspring.com>

At 06:34 PM 8/3/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>Fully capable men 40 years of age are also barred from enlistment.
There's >a reason.

Yep.  It's called age.  There are definite changes in people between 18 and
40.  Soliders are best when trained as young men.  Or women.

> >Of course, the poor dears can't be expected to understand politics, manage
> >an estate or run a business either. Any you know? they couldn't do it. Not
> >until someone let them try.
>
>They are trying it.  And it's causing far more damage than good.

Wow, you are making a bid for greatness!  You will be in the halls with
such greats as Clif and Leroy.

ObTrav: Worlds with wildly different views on gender roles.  Hit the
players with a world where men are second-class citizens and kept in the
house.  Or one where men and woman are equal, but never seen togehter in
polite society.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 23:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 22:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] 40-year olds
Message-ID: <7e.2b89905d.2a7e16b8@aol.com>

 >>Why does the Army do this?  Because 40 year olds, as a 
 >>whole, have sufficient problems that the Army knows it will 
 >>lose more in attempting to incorporate them than it will 
 >>gain.
 >
 >No, no, no.  The reason the Army won't enlist you is because 
 >the "useful lifetime" of the older soldier is shorter.

Well, now you are citing "the needs of the service" rather than the right to 
serve.  I think the needs of the service should be consistently foremost.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 23:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug  3 22:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] 40-year olds
In-Reply-To: <7e.2b89905d.2a7e16b8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B9720DAD.67BE2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/3/02 10:33 PM, Flykiller@aol.com at Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>>> Why does the Army do this?  Because 40 year olds, as a
>>> whole, have sufficient problems that the Army knows it will
>>> lose more in attempting to incorporate them than it will
>>> gain.
>> 
>> No, no, no.  The reason the Army won't enlist you is because
>> the "useful lifetime" of the older soldier is shorter.
> 
> Well, now you are citing "the needs of the service" rather than the right to
> serve.  I think the needs of the service should be consistently foremost.

It should be noted that the same types of restrictions apply to other
Federal service.  For example, you cannot apply to any federal law
enforcement agency unless you will have enough years of service for
retirement by age 55.  Meaning that after age 35, your too old to be an FBI,
DEA or ATF agent.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 23:48:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 22:48:09 2002
Subject: [TML] missiles
References: <74.20c8274f.2a7e1200@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4CBFD6.E47799B2@mindspring.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> 
>  >It [MT] states that a 100 ton bay used as a magazine can hold
>  >13500 missiles, but not launch them,
> 
> If the bay was tightly packed with missiles that would indicate that each
> missile container is 10 inches square and less than 5 feet tall.  Such
> missiles will be transported over long distances and subject to much shock
> during transport, and may sit in their canisters for years, so the canister
> will be heavily padded and sealed to provide a long shelf-life and to reduce
> the chance of sympathetic explosions.  Is 10 inches by 5 feet of padded
> cannister really big enough to hold a spacegoing missile?

I have slightly different figures but it could be conversion errors. In
MT and IMMTU it is. They only accelerate for 40 or so minutes. Can't do
it in the here and now, but we're talking about an internally consistent
game set in the far future.
 
> CT HG2 says zero about it, so I just decided that some of a 50 ton or 100 ton
> missile bay was filled with guidance equipment and gunner positions, with the
> rest of the bay occupied by preloaded sealed cannisters containing each
> salvo.  The gunners initiate launch, the cannister pops open and out go 30
> missiles.  I chose 30 because it seemed to me that a bay would gain better
> use of its missiles than a turret battery because it had better guidance
> equipment rather than simply because it used more missiles, and that made
> sense because missile batteries have to bear before they can shoot.  Having
> each salvo in its own cannister also would make it easy to transport, load,
> unload, and mix-and-match.

IMMTU those 2 b/r's in the bay are in an internal magazine capable of
handling nuclear or antimatter missiles depending on TL of the ship. The
rest of the bay is filled with targeting and guidance equipment. The
increased factor come from a combination of additional missiles and
better guidance / tracking. Gunners positions are outside the bay except
during maintenance. Additional magazine may added.

The shipping containers are somewhat bigger than 0.1 Kl, that is the
magazine requirement, I'm thinking 0.15 kl or so. 
 
Turrets, unless they have an attached magazine, must be reloaded between
shots. Pity the lone gunner on the free trader humping missiles from the
cargo bay to the turret. All the while being screamed at by the pilot,
navigator, engineer, steward and all the passengers.

>  >Not that they've ever fired all 50 b/r's. I think the most
>  >they ever used in one engagement is 6 b/r's.
> 
> You never can have too many missiles.

I quite agree.

-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was  COTI website)
In-Reply-To: <00fa01c23b49$63e1f7c0$a211bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <20020804060231.5D9A02793A@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/04/02 at 12:55 AM,  "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
said:


>> 
>> So, to those that think Martan, Loren, et al are "spamming" this group
>> I politely offer the suggestion..."Go suck eggs!"  

>Heh. If you can't announce trav content on the trav website, what's
>it for?

>That said, the "spam" reference was, I belive, tongue in cheek.

Perhaps, but spam and eggs are a breakfast treat! <g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:04:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:04:00 2002
Subject: [TML] Alternative Gender Roles in the Third Imperium
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020803180658.3b4f38f8@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <73.238e61b4.2a7db467@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020804010359.00aaa590@minn.net>

The Lord of the Penguins wrote:

>ObTrav: Worlds with wildly different views on gender roles.  Hit the
>players with a world where men are second-class citizens and kept in the
>house.  Or one where men and woman are equal, but never seen togehter in
>polite society.
>-- 
>
>Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Name one. Please.

Preferably between Regina and the Coreward boundary of the 3I. (If not,
I'll write it in as a flashback.)

[Les just woke up after sleeping through the alarm clock's buzzing for one
hour and eleven minutes (a record) thus missing Rocky Horror night at the
Riverview Theatre. Les is not a happy boy right now.]


(Hoping the drive through at the Burger Thing is still open) Les


==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <10.22d0c4c9.2a7e1fae@aol.com>

 >In other words, we're talking about two entirely different situations. I'm
 >discussing defending a hypothetical sector from equally hypothetical (but
 >real for the purposes of the exercise) interstellar fleets, and you're
 >playing High Guard.
 >
 >I don't think we can accept one another's assumptions, so the exercise is
 >pointless..

Well, I'll have to agree there.  You have intelligence information, I don't.  
My fleet is chasing ghosts, while you are concentrating accurately at will.   
 My supply lines are vulnerable, while yours are irrelevant.  You have 
tonnage enough for both a large raiding force and yet also a main fleet 
apparently equal to mine.  Your raiders and decoys advance, do their thing, 
and then fall back, and I never see them coming or going.  You insist I'm in 
a political situation that requires me to defend every last backwater in the 
name of publicity, while you have no such concerns.  And you make it sound 
like I'm defending a bunch of virgin Americans instead of a population that 
has gone through five previous wars and has survived.  You're right, I don't 
accept it.

But I'd love to play it.  You're right, I think victories are achieved 
militarily.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:15:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:15:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
In-Reply-To: <3D4C6254.25855.23272CD@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208032313260.28625-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Sat, 3 Aug 2002, Shadowcat wrote:

> (Doug says, 'Who is Richard Tucholka?' )
> 
> Stalking the Night Fantastic, Fringeworthy, FTL 2448

What's Richard doing these days?  We were sort of friends in the 80's--
knew a lot of the same folks, turned up at parties together, etc.  I think
he may have been at my first wedding.

Anyone hanging out with him, tell him Kiri Morgan says hi-- although I
think you might have to tell him I used to be Kiri Westfall!

Kiri :)

**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] realism
Message-ID: <53.1a729e8e.2a7e21cd@aol.com>

 >  I agree with you that this is a RPG and realism doesn't carry much weight 
 >really...so why not play dnd instead?

Flavor.  Heck, play both.

 >btw.......Imperial nobles IMHO can be modelled after the Catholic Church of 
 >the middle ages. 
 >The held massive amounts of power without holding the reigns of any single 
 >country. Yet no king would dare go against the Pope in those days.

The kings and their subjects believed, and a Pope wields spiritual power.  
Why would an Imperial Emperor be viewed in the same way?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Check Your Landgrabs!
Message-ID: <1ad.629357b.2a7e2295@aol.com>

What is the landgrab?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Paging Martin Dougherty
References: <20020804013343.15643.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <005e01c23b82$c3ebe840$8a0fbd50@martinjd>

> Martin,
> 
> I hadn't heard from you, and was wondering if you got
> the info you had asked for.
> 
> Let me know, I can send it again if you haven't gotten
> it yet.

Uhh? It Morning. Me Brain-Slow. Remind What Information? 
Me Find Breakfast Cereal Now. Kill And Eat Cereal. Cereal Good. 




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:38:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:38:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Paging Martin Dougherty
References: <20020804013343.15643.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <008101c23b82$ff35d320$8a0fbd50@martinjd>

> Martin,
>
> I hadn't heard from you, and was wondering if you got
> the info you had asked for.
>
> Let me know, I can send it again if you haven't gotten
> it yet.

Uhh? It Morning. Me Brain-Slow. Remind What Information?
Me Find Breakfast Cereal Now. Kill And Eat Cereal. Cereal Good.

(I lost ALL my archived email recently, so there's a few loose ends I'm not
even aware of. Is this in reference to the bioweapon stuff, or something
else?)







From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <18c.bd4c936.2a7e26e9@aol.com>

 >>Ah, a general overall fleet attack.  You describe a situation some weeks 
 >>after it has begun.  I think my scouts would give me a more accurate
 picture, 
 >>and sooner.  I will send a message to Deneb to send a fleet.
 >
 >Two months to get there at Jump-6.  Assuming an entire fleet is ready to
 >rush to your aid, 2-3 months to get it to the front.

Oh, I'm sure it wouldn't rush to the front.  That fleet commander will want a 
clear picture of what is going on as he approaches with whatever he 
approaches with.

>>that straggle back home looking for support.  Further I'll send the fleet 
>>raider task force to shoot up whatever they can in other worlds in that
>>area. 

>What are his war goals?  If it is disrupting the Imperial confidence in the
>sector, you will not be able to justify your move politically!  Remember,
>in WWII the US went on the offensive only after Midway.

Well, his goals will be to disrupt general shipping, of course.

 >> Two can play this game, only I'll do it with concentrated task forces.  
Let 
 >>the consule at Cronor yell at _his_ commander:  "There are a thousand 
 >>frigates at Querion!  Do something!"
 >
 >Meanwhile there are a hundred ships at Jewell, Efate, Pixie.. destroying
 >naval bases and advanced starports.

If he gets them in without me seeing them coming.  Why does everyone assume 
I'm blind and he sees all?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <ca.f8487da.2a7e2802@aol.com>

 >Cool.  And in the same time, you have the Zhos coming from everywhere (the
 >Consulate is much smaller, y'know) and the Zho's destroying the ares you
 >were supposed to be defending!  If you are lucky, you'll be killed in
 >battle, and won't be hung for gross incompetence.
 >
 >Mission is everything.  If you have been attacked, your first duty as an
 >Imperial officer is to defend the state.  Taking the war to the enemy's
 >home is a political decision.

It seems I am to be the passive blind recipient of whatever comes my way, 
while my opponent is free to act with clear vision.  You're right.  I'd lose.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <a.22f0514d.2a7e28ce@aol.com>

 >> >You're thniking of everything in terms of a mapboard and counters. I'm
 >> >discussing warfare.
 >>
 >>I'm thinking in terms of what the actually constructed vessels will do 
 >>according to the rules, yes.  You are thinking in terms of imagining what
 you 
 >>think various effects will be.  I'll take the hardware -- such as it is -- 
 >>and I'll have the last word.
 >
 >You are really setting records for honking people off here, you know that?

That was offensive?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 01:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Sun Aug  4 00:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] 40-year olds
In-Reply-To: <200208031505.LZD01427@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <003e01c23c23$c7b6c0c0$1001a8c0@sauron>

John T. Kwon wrote :
> Flykiller says
> >Why does the Army do this?  Because 40 year olds, as a 
> >whole, have sufficient problems that the Army knows it will 
> >lose more in attempting to incorporate them than it will 
> >gain.
> 
> No, no, no.  The reason the Army won't enlist you is because 
> the "useful lifetime" of the older soldier is shorter.  Not 
> because you can't pass the PT test.  
> 
> Training is an expense - and once they spend the money, 
> they expect a useful time period after that, including 
> reserve time.

And in fact, the military is known to waive this rule if 
you are already trained. My father was offered enlistment 
and the automatic rank (in that if he accpted the job, he 
got the rank) of Flight Lieutenant when he was 38, because 
at the time the Air Force needed experienced and trained 
civil engineers _now_, rather than in six years when they 
had trained some. 

> Most Delta Force soldiers are between the ages of 35 and 40.  
> The Army does not have a problem with age as it pertains to 
> performance.

Anyone who harbours any misapprehensions about the combat 
effectiveness of people over forty, needs to go and look 
at the accomplishments of Choyun Miyagi. 

I believe this may have the been the person who 
"The Karate Kid"'s mentor, Mr. Miyagi, was modelled on. 

Or how about the European 747 pilot who qualfied as a "samurai" 
shortly after his 40th birthday? (The newspaper report said 
"samurai", what I think they meant was he was the first European 
to be granted the top rank in kenjutsu.)
  
And then there were the first US astronauts....

If you want both fitness _and_ lots of combat experience, you have 
to get people who over 35. Anyone younger, unless they were born 
to the PLO or something similar, just doesn't have the experience. 

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 01:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 00:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
Message-ID: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>

 >But anyway... let's put this interesting debate to bed...

Concur.  Please ignore any further posts I've made on this.

And thanks.  I've been dying for years to talk to someone about this.  It was 
great.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 01:20:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 00:20:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
 traveller)
Message-ID: <880f68582e.8582e880f6@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Date: Saturday, August 3, 2002 8:57 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in 
traveller)

<<snip>>
> 
> While there is likely a connection between PTSD and rapid 
> reintegration back
> into 'normal' life, experts have also linked PSTD to the extensive 
> use of
> operant conditioning of soldiers that occurred after WWII.
> 
> What provisions does the Imperium make for combat veterans 
> returning to
> civilian life?  Are long voyages home sufficient?

<tongue-in-cheek>

Well, considering how many Trav characters end up with Gun and/or Blade 
as mustering-out benefits, the 3I military doesn't seem to have a major 
problem with PTSD sufferers going postal.... ;-)

</tongue-in-cheek>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 01:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug  4 00:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>

What I'd like to read and participate in is an analysis of fleet
composition, weapons, defensive system and tactics in GURPS Traveller,
and how they differ from other incarnations of Traveller space combat
systems.  Unfortunately I lack the necessary experience with other
Traveller space combat systems :/

From what I can see, the weapons and defensive equipment available in
GT starship design have just been translated from other Traveller
design systems without regard to how effective they actually are in
GURPS.

I presume that similar things happened between other versions of
Traveller rule sets.  Will it happen again with T20?  Will there be a
starship design and space combat supplement for that?


Do people find it desirable to explore the various consequences of
different combat models, or would they prefer to have the same model
across all incarnations of Traveller?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 01:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sun Aug  4 00:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
 traveller)
In-Reply-To: <880f68582e.8582e880f6@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020804024508.00aac9c0@minn.net>

At 10:19 AM 8/4/2002 +0300, john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:

>Well, considering how many Trav characters end up with Gun and/or Blade 
>as mustering-out benefits, the 3I military doesn't seem to have a major 
>problem with PTSD sufferers going postal.... ;-)
>
></tongue-in-cheek>

I don't recall postal workers being a problem back when the LBB's came out.

Though there was a bit of fuss being raised over Sun Set Loony and his
followers.  ;-)


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 01:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Sun Aug  4 00:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
 <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <200208040353580835.54A1D865@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 8/4/2002 at 5:34 PM Timothy Little wrote:

>I presume that similar things happened between other versions of
>Traveller rule sets.  Will it happen again with T20?  Will there be a
>starship design and space combat supplement for that?

T20 has the starship design rules (along with everything else!) in the main=
 book. They are based directly off of High Guard (v2). There are some minor=
 differences, but ships designed with either system should be readily=
 interchangable.

There are two sets of combat rules presents, a basic set that is abstract=
 and deals more with the roleplaying than mechanics, and the advance combat=
 system which is much more tactical and uses 2 'megahexes' to plot long=
 range and short range tactical movement.

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 02:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 01:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: HULL THICKNESS LIMITATION
Message-ID: <200208040804.g7484Pw19092@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Flykiller@aol.com
>Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat HULL THICKNESS LIMITATION
...
> >HULL
> >185.000 tons standard, 2,590.000 cubic meters, Planetoid Configuration
>
>In a Planetoid Configuration of this size the maximum thickness of the outer 
>hull is 0.6 meters and likely much less.  If this ship were 185,000 tons, the 
>maximum outer thickness of the outer hull would be 6.0 meters.  Yet in both 
>cases they are considered to be naturally armor 3.  I think there should be a 
>lower limit on allowable tonnages for Planetoid and Buffered Planetoid ships.

  Sure, but that function also applies to armour on ships.

  See also Mr. Thrash' essay on internal structure issues for large ships.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 02:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 01:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
 <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

Hello Tim,
  The missile damage rules in GURPS TRAVELLER make missile craft that much
  more deadly than they were in any other TRAVELLER incarnation.  I
  personally do not use the GURPS STARSHIP combat rules as presented, nor
  am I pleased with rendition of the Meson weapons in the GURPS TRAVELLER
  rule set.  Having said that however, I would be pleased to discuss the
  topic matter you proposed...

            Hal



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 02:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Aug  4 01:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020803180658.3b4f38f8@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <3.0.5.16.20020803180658.3b4f38f8@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m3lm7njaot.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes:

> At 06:34 PM 8/3/2002 EDT, you wrote:
> 
> > Fully capable men 40 years of age are also barred from enlistment.
> > There's a reason.
> 
> Yep.  It's called age.  There are definite changes in people between
> 18 and 40.  Soliders are best when trained as young men.  Or women.

When I visited the Naval Academy at the end of my brother's plebe
summer, I recall a certain amount of puzzlement when watching the
plebes parading by.  A portion of them were smaller than my 11 yr. old
brother, and skinnier too (a fair accomplishment, that).  I recall
thinking to myself that I though only 17+ yr. olds were allowed in.
Then I took a closer look.  Every one of those `boys' was a girl.

In fairness, at the parade at the end of his midshipman career the
differences were not quite so pronounced.

> ObTrav: Worlds with wildly different views on gender roles.  Hit the
> players with a world where men are second-class citizens and kept in
> the house.

I believe that at least one of those already exists...

> Or one where men and woman are equal, but never seen togehter in
> polite society.

That'd be odd.  What's the mechanism?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
But it's more than that, of course; bad spelling just isn't respectable.
You may, perhaps, want to lament this fact.  You are free to do so.  The
fact remains.                                            --John Mitchell

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 02:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Sun Aug  4 01:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was  COTI website)
In-Reply-To: <20020804060231.5D9A02793A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPGEAHEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Was that spam and eggs
or spam, spam egs and spam?

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Eris Reddoch
Sent: Sunday, 4 August 2002 2:03 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was COTI website)


On 08/04/02 at 12:55 AM,  "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
said:


>> 
>> So, to those that think Martan, Loren, et al are "spamming" this group
>> I politely offer the suggestion..."Go suck eggs!"  

>Heh. If you can't announce trav content on the trav website, what's
>it for?

>That said, the "spam" reference was, I belive, tongue in cheek.

Perhaps, but spam and eggs are a breakfast treat! <g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 02:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Sun Aug  4 01:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPGEAHEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPGEAHEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
Message-ID: <200208040445160020.54D0CCA6@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 8/4/2002 at 4:21 PM Antony Farrell wrote:

>Was that spam and eggs
>or spam, spam egs and spam?

Ok gotta keep it on topic!

Pardons if this has actually been covered previously.

So does SPAM survive the Rule of Man, the Long Night and into the Third=
 Imperium? If so, is it just a Solomani thing, or have the Vilani and=
 others come to enjoy this uniquely Terran... ummm .... stuff? I'm just=
 picturing a group of adventurers finding an old Rule of Man cache,=
 stockpiled with cans of good old SPAM!

Inquiring minds want to know!

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 02:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Sun Aug  4 01:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <20020803203103.12400.34750.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentr
 al.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804013527.009f91d0@mailhost.efn.org>

>The program was successful.  The number of troops firing in combat went from
>10-30% to over 90%.  Many psychiatrists and others in the field have
>suggested that this operant conditioning may have had deleterious effects in
>that it short circuits the natural human reluctance to kill.

Which was, of course, precisely the intended result.  The real trick is 
turning that reflex back ON again after you've deliberately broken 
it.  This is a little harder than beating a sword back into a plowshare; 
more like unscrambling an egg.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 03:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 02:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <25.2b8bf94f.2a7e4e43@aol.com>

In a message dated 04/08/02 09:24:19 GMT Daylight Time, ruhl@4dv.net writes:


> Or one where men and woman are equal, but never seen togehter in
> polite society.

That'd be odd.  What's the mechanism?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

One option is visible fertility - humans are unusual in that we don't know 
when women are in oestrus. In a society where that didn't exist there is 
likely to be tight social control over gender interaction.

You might see harem based families (K'Kree) or you might see a society where 
males and females have parrallel societies with extremely ritualised methods 
of interaction, particularly if women tend to become fertile at around the 
same time.

One interesting possibilty is Vagr society where it would be obvious to every 
male within quite a distance that the high ranking, young female en route to 
take part in a political wedding and placed in the care of the PCs by her 
doting (if somewhat inflexible, powerful and violent father) has just come 
"on heat" for the first time...

Do male Aslan mark their territory?

"Elmer that danged tomcat's peeing on the airlock again! Go own scat, shoo - 
you pee on it you pay for it!"

Charles

I addressed some cheerful chit-chat at the man opposite but was rewarded with 
grunt. I tried the man next to me but he just looked at the gentleman I had 
tried first and said "Do you know what he's talking about?" At this point I 
realised I was getting out my depth but the Dean stepped in and saved me, "Oh 
don't worry about it" he said, "They're mathematicians - we never talk to 
them."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 05:12:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 04:12:10 2002
Subject: [TML] 40-year olds
Message-ID: <memo.591614@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <003e01c23c23$c7b6c0c0$1001a8c0@sauron>
> And in fact, the military is known to waive this rule if 
> you are already trained. My father was offered enlistment 
> and the automatic rank (in that if he accpted the job, he 
> got the rank) of Flight Lieutenant when he was 38, because 
> at the time the Air Force needed experienced and trained 
> civil engineers _now_, rather than in six years when they 
> had trained some. 

I was invited back once, to a Reservist unit, at age 40, living the other 
end of the country to their base, and with responsibility for a small 
child. I had skills they were after...

... didn't work out in the end, but I had fun visiting them :-)

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 05:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 04:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <20020804054809.26103.98485.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17bJb8-0007Wi-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

> In mail you write:
> 
> > Time-Travel is a huge no-no. Do I have something against it? Yes and
> > no. It's entertaining and fascinating to speculate on, but it would
> > seriously unbalance a campaign. I also like the idea that
> > consequences of one's actions are irreversable...Time Travel far too
> > often gives one an out to correct mistakes.
> 
> Well, the theoretical work that physicists have done on the
> possibility of time travel in the real world says that two things will
> be true if it's possible:
> 
> 1. You can't travel back before the instant the machione is first
>    activated.
> 
> 2. You can't alter the past. You'd have free will to the exact extent
>    that you *don't* know what happened. 

Actually, from what I've read, those are only true *if* causality is 
always preserved.  If it is possible to utterly toss causality out the 
window, then time travel can involve whatever you want.  It's 
interesting to me that preservation of causality seems something 
almost all phyicists assume to be true w/o having any absolute 
necessity that the world actually operates this way.  We haven't 
seen any obvious causality violations, but until last century we also 
never saw any obvious relativistic effects.  Personally, I think the 
universe would be a considerably more interesting (in all possible 
meanings of this word) place is causality is not strictly preserved.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 05:34:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sun Aug  4 04:34:05 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
References: <ca.f8487da.2a7e2802@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4D10E8.FE3A4CDB@mindspring.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> 
>  >Cool.  And in the same time, you have the Zhos coming from everywhere (the
>  >Consulate is much smaller, y'know) and the Zho's destroying the ares you
>  >were supposed to be defending!  If you are lucky, you'll be killed in
>  >battle, and won't be hung for gross incompetence.
>  >
>  >Mission is everything.  If you have been attacked, your first duty as an
>  >Imperial officer is to defend the state.  Taking the war to the enemy's
>  >home is a political decision.
> 
> It seems I am to be the passive blind recipient of whatever comes my way,
> while my opponent is free to act with clear vision.  You're right.  I'd lose.
> 

Damn mind rapers! Lets kill some Joies!


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 06:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Aug  4 05:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <memo.561259@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3D4DC34C.24200.5FD4B2@localhost>

On 2 Aug 2002 at 23:54, Megan Robertson wrote:

> In-Reply-To: <02Aug2.151432pdt.119054@gw.city.vancouver.bc.ca>
> > > On Fri, 2 Aug 2002 Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> > 
> > <SNIP>
> > 
> > > I've been trying to decide whether or not to killfile you for a 
> > > while--
> > > thanks for helping me out.
> > 
> >  Moi aussi.
> 
> I am laughing too hard to issue the requisite command.
> 
> Mexal.
> former infantry sergeant of the female persuasion.

Somehow I don't think this idea will get very far over here. About 1-in-
6 (IIRC) of our military personnel are female, and there are now no 
positions that they are prohibited from entering (Ops Diver and SAS 
being opened to female personnel about a year ago). Moving females back 
into separate support organisations would utterly cripple what little 
military we still have.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 06:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Aug  4 05:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <40.21b2d6f0.2a7cfea7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4DC641.25712.6B6046@localhost>

On 3 Aug 2002 at 5:38, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>  >And I daresay that if we have women serving in full combat capacity
>  >under the regimes of either seperate standards (i.e. where they must
>  >not meet the same standards as men) or reduced standards (e.g. I
>  >understand that two-man stretcher teams are now four or more), we will
>  >see plenty of human beings who die miserably because their comrades
>  >are not up to the task.
> 
> Actually, I'll bet we won't.  The military is talking now about how much 
> future warfare will be on the level of special ops, utilizing local troops 
> and only sending in special forces to coordinate bomb strikes, like in 
> Afghanistan.
> 
> Army?  What army?

I'll believe that when I see it. This sort of talking has always turned 
out to be wishful thinking in the past, and I see no reason why it 
isn't now. It's all very well while you're thrashing low-tech thrid-
worlders, but sooner or later there'll be another first-world vs first-
world scrap, and spec ops teams relying on vast amounts of support just 
won't cut it.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 06:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Strain)
Date: Sun Aug  4 05:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020804113405.2614.19201.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001001c23bb4$101d4160$92aa5940@dixienet.com>

MISSION: Get EVERYBODY on the list.
METHOD  act in a resonably manner, be polite, but challenge EVERYTHING they
say in response to your comments.
Call them idiots - in a polite manner of course. Act as if YOUR word is
God's and thier's at best ravings.


My take:  POINTLESS -- Why pointless? Because you set out to waste bandwith
with false agruements!

This was the FIRST  'agreement" made in one complete week.
************
>I don't think we can accept one another's assumptions, so the exercise is
 >pointless..
From: Flykiller@aol.com
Well, I'll have to agree there.

*************
From: Flykiller@aol.com ate: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 02:11:58 EDT
>In other words, we're talking about two entirely different situations.
(SNIPPED OUT) ...ercise) interstellar fleets, and you're >laying High Guard.
I don't think we can accept one another's assumptions, so the exercise is
pointless..

Well, I'll have to agree there.  You have intelligence information, I don't.
(SNIPPED OUT)    like I'm defending a bunch of virgin Americans instead of a
population that
has gone through five previous wars and has survived.  You're right, I don't
accept it.

But I'd love to play it.  You're right, I think victories are achieved
militarily.

CONCLUSION:  guy wanted to argue, no play a game - but starting fights IS
his game.

SETup.... THIS IS SIMULATION ONLY NOT A LIVE EXERCISE

FFW map.. place all units as described on map according  to fleet doctrine
using ALL FFW RULES.

Opposite side SETSUP on DIFFERENT map. Opponents TRY to find out "what's
there" using ships moving one jump per week

ONLY the Master sees BOTH fleet positions - EVER. Opponents find out by
ships finding each other. Politial rules prevent FLEETS ( 5 ships per
group ) from crossing borders with declarations of war made.

Think you can handle that? If not SHUT UP!! John Strain


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 06:38:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Sun Aug  4 05:38:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for the Atro-genius Types (was: System Gen
 Help)
In-Reply-To: <20020804054809.26103.98485.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentr
 al.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020804141737.00ac52f0@mail.pi.se>

Mr.Berry wrote:

> >Would it be possible for a planet be captured into an
> >L4 or L5 point on a Gas Giant?
>
>Anything is *possible*, but it would be a one in a billion shot.
>
>1. The developing mass of the gas giant will disrupt planetary formation,
>so it would need to be a captured world.
>
>2. It would have to enter the system on the *exact* right course at a
>precise time at the right speed.
>
>3. The planet would need to enter on the plane of the rest of the system,
>and not encounter anything else.
>
>This is incredibly unlikely. Even if it has happened, it's most likely to
>be around an outer gas giant and be a fairly small world.

I'm not so sure - I'm not an astrophysicist - but this depends on 
definitions. If the world comes from some other system I'd agree it is very 
unlikely.

But if the world is captured from a different orbit in the same solar 
system, possibly because of orbital migration, this may be a not too 
uncommon occurrence. The possibility of having gas giants in such 
resonances is investigated in this interesting arXiv preprint by Gregory 
Laughlin and John Chambers titled "Extrasolar Trojans: The Viability and 
Detectability of planets in the 1:1 Resonance"

  http://arXiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0204091

Maybe it would be courteous to provide some sort of description of such 
links to the people on a mailing list not having time to check  all links 
up, I'll recycle a brief recap I myself did somewhere else. If you are not 
interested in planet generation, skip to the next message as this gets 
long-ish.

Laughlin/Chambers think there is a possibility for large planets to be in a 
1:1
resonance. That is, one planet makes one orbit while the other makes one.
We have examples of such resonance among moons around Saturn, and among
Jupiter's large bunch of Trojan asteroids. If we had a space station in
LG-4 or LG-5 it would be in 1:1 resonance with the Moon, and so on.
LG-points are only stable for certain masses. You do not have such around
Pluto/Charon or around most binary stars. However, that is only one type of
1:1 orbit resonance possible - Saturn's moons give more examples of moons
"switching" orbits and such.

What L/C does is identify three types of 1:1 resonances stable for a solar
system lifetime. The first one is a situation where the planets and the
star form an equidistant triangle, or if you so like, one planet is in the
other planet-sun system's LG-4 point. This situation would be stable for
planets where the combined mass is less than 0.03812 of the primary (so it
would work on Jupiter-size worlds), the planets would oscillate in
tadpole-like orbits but in principle they would stay. However, if the
planets were disturbed out of this stability, it is possible to have
another kind of resonance.

In this second type, the planets involved are of roughly equal size move
around in their orbit it about 180 degree separation (one planet on each
side of the star). This is also a stable situation, though there is a bit
of oscillation. In this case, the planets cannot be as massive. For a
sun-type star, the limit is about 0.4 Jupiter masses, so Saturn-size gas
giants could be stable. (This is an example of horseshoe orbits)

The third and more odd type is where two planets have different orbits and
by interaction at exchange orbits, so to speak. Imagine having one planet
with low eccentricity and one with high eccentricity. These worlds would on
the order of tens to hundreds of orbits (shorter for heavier planets) cause
the other world to get gradually more or less eccentricity by exchanging
angular momentum. This situation could be stable for planetary masses up to
about 0.035 of the primary.

The first two examples of 1:1 resonance may be rather common, or so the
authors think. It is possible for planets slightly smaller than Jupiter
that it is possible to form a secondary planet core in the Trojan point, as
lower-mass gas giants do not "clear out" the disc as efficiently. Another
possibility is that the proto-planets collide and create a double core, and
as this double planet migrate inward* in the early solar system the
stability radii decrease, and the planet-planet orbit is instable and the
worlds end up in the first type of resonance, which can be further
disturbed out to the second one. (Or vice versa)

The third type is bound to be more rare, but it could happen in a situation
where three larger planets interact. One is ejected and the remaining two
form a 1:1 angular momentum resonance. One could imagine the odd climate
shift a stable moon around such a gas giant would experience when over a
800-year span the eccentricity changes drastically.

*Another paper suggests the chances are very high jovian worlds migrate
from where they are formed. Either inward or outward. Possibly our Jupiter
represents a minority which formed at the right time to stay just outside
the snow line, and is among the 10-15% of planetary systems having such
jovians. Side note: planets in 1:1 resonance would likely keep the
resonance when in orbital migration.

Enough said.

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 06:39:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Aug  4 05:39:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <memo.572870@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3D4DC91F.22100.769295@localhost>

On 3 Aug 2002 at 13:13, Megan Robertson wrote:

> Mexal (not sniper-trained - in the British Army they only accept right 
> handers... Grrr.)

Ah. That was never a factor in my case - I pissed off the wrong officer 
shortly before the paper-work was to be passed along. :(

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 07:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug  4 06:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
Message-ID: <200208041300.MAV01414@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Azalais Malfoy asks
>What's Richard doing these days?  

He's got a website up - 
http://users.twave.net/b13/
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 07:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sun Aug  4 06:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020804113405.2614.19201.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <001001c23bb4$101d4160$92aa5940@dixienet.com>
Message-ID: <003601c23bb9$68924480$0616bd50@martinjd>

>
> ONLY the Master sees BOTH fleet positions - EVER. Opponents find out by
> ships finding each other. Politial rules prevent FLEETS ( 5 ships per
> group ) from crossing borders with declarations of war made.


We did this in a Napoleonic context. What frustration! Corps commanders were
players, as was army commander (me). Just getting them to send meaningful
information back to me was well-nigh impossible.

At one point, I sent the fifth repetition of an order to attack to my
cavalry corps commander (I could see him from my command position). The
order? "Enemy infantry and guns deploying to your front. Attack them.
Charge! Charge! Charge them NOW! Attack them immediately!. Confirm receipt."
(I was getting cranky)

The confirmation came back "Cannot attack. My cuirassiers are in front of my
lancers. Must redeploy for maximum effectivenesss." (He'd been fiddling with
his deployments for 3 hours game-time and was now under artillery fire)

My final order: "To: General XXXX (Cuirassier division commander, NPC).
Arrest or shoot your corps commander, and attack enemy to your front.
Immediate. Deliver via Corps HQ."

Well, it got him moving.

But seriously, the comm delay and limited intelligence turned a wargame into
a nightmare. A system of courier simulation and player-subordinates who
won't necesssarily obey orders helps too...








From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 07:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun Aug  4 06:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was COTI website)
Message-ID: <F202T3kMUVfNIJWNDIT00000440@hotmail.com>

From: "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>

     "IMO, I don't mind occasional reminders of "what you've got" and where 
it is, I don't mind announcements when you've got something new and 
exciting, I don't mind you asking us for our input on things, and I
don't mind you giving us your input on things. In fact, I appreciate it, and 
hope you keep it up!"


Mr. Reddoch,

     You are, of course, correct sir.
     My lame attempt at humor backfired and was in poor taste.  Yet another 
Whipsnadian faux pas inflicted on the List. (sigh)
     Mea culpa.

     "So, to those that think Martin, Loren, et. al. are "spamming" this 
group I politely offer the suggestion..."Go suck eggs!"

     I've already bought a dozen, will that be enough?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 07:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Scott Ayres)
Date: Sun Aug  4 06:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Movies
In-Reply-To: <102.1921e4ba.2a7dede0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020804135041.73249.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com>

re: GETTYSBURG movie...
  The same crew is putting together at least 2 more
movies in the same vein as GETTYSBURG - based on
original author's son's works.  Not sure if they're
for theater or TV release. Possible '03 release?

re: Movie historical (and book) accuracy
  I hang out with several military history types
(professors and non-profs).  There's a few complaints
with GETTYSBURG's (and others') historical accuracy or
getting the wrong people in the wrong roles.  Some 
can't stand Short's accent, Berringer's false beard,
or this aspect or that.  I enjoyed the movie
regardless.  _Something_ is better than nothing.
  Case in point: PEARL HARBOR.  I took my kids.  They
liked it, I shuddered.  But at a recent 13th b-day
party for my daughter, her friends _wanted_ to see it.
 Who'd of thought that five 13-yr girls would want to
see a "war" movie?  My kids (10 to 16'ish) attend some
of the finest public schools in my state or the
nation, yet have trouble remembering who was who (and
why) in what war.  I am amazed how much of what I grew
up with and thought "important" is now so much chaff
(WW2 was vs. the Axis _not_ the VC, etc.)

  So how does this relate to Traveller?  A recent
thread concerned the movie & book for STARSHIP
TROOPERS.  ST is surely food for the inaccuracy of
book to movie topic, yet it does generate interest in
the genre.  Flipping through the channels a couple
weeks and it was on cable...  I watched the portion
where the troop ship was falling apart after receiving
fire from the planet.  I'd never noticed the external
scenes to the degree I did before: individual people
were falling out (away) of the ship as it ripped
apart.  Don't remember ever seeing that in a movie
before.  I also noticed the proximity of ships to each
other.  I know it's "Hollywood" and _this_ movie,
but... 

OT: has anyone ever concerned the proximity of ships
to each other in close orbit and planetary
bombardment?  How close is too close?  Does a fleet
turn the night sky bright with the multitude of
invading ships?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 08:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 07:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <200208040353580835.54A1D865@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
References: <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
 <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804100230.026b7e58@192.168.0.1>

At 03:53 AM 8/4/2002 -0400, Hunter Gordon wrote:
>On 8/4/2002 at 5:34 PM Timothy Little wrote:
> >I presume that similar things happened between other versions of
> >Traveller rule sets.  Will it happen again with T20?  Will there be a
> >starship design and space combat supplement for that?
>T20 has the starship design rules (along with everything else!) in the 
>main book. They are based directly off of High Guard (v2). There are some 
>minor differences, but ships designed with either system should be readily 
>interchangable.
>There are two sets of combat rules presents, a basic set that is abstract 
>and deals more with the roleplaying than mechanics, and the advance combat 
>system which is much more tactical and uses 2 'megahexes' to plot long 
>range and short range tactical movement.

I'll knock off a couple of ship designs for review by the list when I get 
my copy.
Until then, I have two nice new canes from CaneMasters to keep me amused.
Ok, one's for my dad, but I gotta do some quality check on it first...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Blend 'B', meanwhile, is a PROUD blend, defiant yet petulant...a blend
that grabs you, shakes you by the collar and cries, 'ACCEPT me, damn you,
or turn me away-BUT FOR GOD'S SAKE DON'T POLLUTE ME WITH NON-DAIRY
CREAMER!'" - Tripp Biscuit while coffee tasting.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 09:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 08:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: 40-year-olds
Message-ID: <194.ae860e2.2a7e9fc4@aol.com>

After GDW went OOB, but before the SJ Games offer came up, I tried to get a 
job outside of gaming (technical writing, etc.). Nobody (NOBODY) was much 
interested in hiring me, and a couple of people (one at the employment 
office, one at a job fair I attended) said that "at your age" absent an MBA 
or a really advanced degree in something in demand at the moment, I had 
little hopes of a job where I wasn't asking "You want fries with that?" or 
mopping floors.

I tried getting work outsid of gaming -- nobody wants you if you're 40+. The 
military is not unusual in this regard.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 09:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Rutherford)
Date: Sun Aug  4 08:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: 40-year-olds
In-Reply-To: <194.ae860e2.2a7e9fc4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804112452.012467a8@mail.comcast.net>

At 11:18 AM 8/4/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>After GDW went OOB, but before the SJ Games offer came up, I tried to get a
>job outside of gaming (technical writing, etc.). Nobody (NOBODY) was much
>interested in hiring me, and a couple of people (one at the employment
>office, one at a job fair I attended) said that "at your age" absent an MBA
>or a really advanced degree in something in demand at the moment, I had
>little hopes of a job where I wasn't asking "You want fries with that?" or
>mopping floors.
>
>I tried getting work outsid of gaming -- nobody wants you if you're 40+. The
>military is not unusual in this regard.

It's just as well for the rest of us that you were "forced" retain a job 
*in*side gaming!


Bill Rutherford
worj@comcast.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 10:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 09:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was COTI website)
In-Reply-To: <F202T3kMUVfNIJWNDIT00000440@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804120536.025855a0@192.168.0.1>

At 01:16 PM 8/4/2002 +0000, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
[snip]
>     I've already bought a dozen, will that be enough?

I'd say that the humble apology was enough.
Mr. Whipsnade should watch his cholesterol.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ferret: Chaos with fur, claws and an odd smell.
          http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 10:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Sun Aug  4 09:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Taxes
In-Reply-To: <85.1f38e034.2a7d1f78@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000501c23bd4$ab74f6b0$6501a8c0@Darla>

IMTU the Imperium gets at 10% tariff on the value of all goods shipped
interstellar, plus 10% of the fares charged for interstellar passage.
The Imperium does not levy any direct taxes on individuals.

Payments from planetary governments to the Imperium vary widely, and are
always on a case-by-case basis for each world, codified in the treaty by
which the planet joined (i.e. recognized the authority of) the Imperium
and/or the feudal contract between the planet's ruling noble and the
Emperor.

TWB

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com [mailto:tml-
> admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Flykiller@aol.com
> Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 6:59 AM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Taxes
> 
>  >TCS says its a head count
> 
> Actually, it doesn't.  It says "... ; Cr500 is the amount of naval tax
> paid
> by the average citizen ; ..."
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 10:34:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Sun Aug  4 09:34:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Pilots of the Future (was: warship optimization)
In-Reply-To: <002e01c23ad4$cbcbbd00$1d17bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <000601c23bd4$abfd1270$6501a8c0@Darla>

> 
> Main problem with drones is the ECM/ECCM/Jamming seesaw.
> 
> And control lags over combat distances in space, OC.
> 

That may be true of drones, but unmanned combat aircraft will be
autonomous to a large degree.  I suspect that "video game reflexes" will
not be useful skills in operating them - mission planning will be more
important.

TWB


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
References: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPGEAHEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com> <200208040445160020.54D0CCA6@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3D4D5E9F.4000707@telocity.com>

Hunter Gordon wrote:

>On 8/4/2002 at 4:21 PM Antony Farrell wrote:
>
>>Was that spam and eggs
>>or spam, spam egs and spam?
>>
>
>Ok gotta keep it on topic!
>
>Pardons if this has actually been covered previously.
>
>So does SPAM survive the Rule of Man, the Long Night and into the Third Imperium? If so, is it just a Solomani thing, or have the Vilani and others come to enjoy this uniquely Terran... ummm .... stuff? I'm just picturing a group of adventurers finding an old Rule of Man cache, stockpiled with cans of good old SPAM!
>
>Inquiring minds want to know!
>
Wait! There's good spam, and there's old spam, but there just *ain't* no 
good old spam! <g>

And yes, canned spiced ham has survived  IMTU, at least....along with 
canned hash, canned tuna, canned groat, ad nausium...<g>

Eris


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was COTI website)
References: <F202T3kMUVfNIJWNDIT00000440@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D4D5FBB.9000503@telocity.com>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

> From: "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>
>
>     "IMO, I don't mind occasional reminders of "what you've got" and 
> where it is, I don't mind announcements when you've got something new 
> and exciting, I don't mind you asking us for our input on things, and I
> don't mind you giving us your input on things. In fact, I appreciate 
> it, and hope you keep it up!"
>
>
> Mr. Reddoch,
>
>     You are, of course, correct sir.
>     My lame attempt at humor backfired and was in poor taste.  Yet 
> another Whipsnadian faux pas inflicted on the List. (sigh)
>     Mea culpa.
>
>     "So, to those that think Martin, Loren, et. al. are "spamming" 
> this group I politely offer the suggestion..."Go suck eggs!"
>
>     I've already bought a dozen, will that be enough?
>
>
>     Sincerely,
>     Larsen
>
Why,  of course, Mr. Whipsnade!  But please don't forget the spam. As I 
said spam and eggs, a breakfast treat. <g>

Eris


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:11:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:11:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <m3y9bndi8f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEKFEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>> > That kind of setup might be cheap when it came to starship life
>> > support costs, but I imagine the impact on the soldiers' psyches
>> > would be extreme.
>>
>> Not if they were only asleep during jumps.  "Good morning, we're
>> passing through Regina and the captain decided you should all spend
>> some money there for a few days."  And soldiers won't be spending
>> years on ships anyway--they'll only be there when in transport.
>> Kind of hard to practice armored maneuvers on the mess deck.
>
>No, 'cause they'd still not get the full rest needed.  My
>greatgrandfather and grandfather took well over a month to return to
>the US after WWI & WWII; my father was back in college in 48 or so
>hours after his time in Vietnam.  Granted, that's _some_ rest time,
>but it's not nearly enough.  You don't find as much PTSD in fellows
>who got to slowly make their way back home, adjust to the new reality
>&c.; you find quite a lot in guys who are plucked up from one
>situation and dropped in another.
>

This brings up an interesting point. Does it go the other way too? Most U.S.
soldiers had a good month between the time they left CONUS and the time they
hit the lines in Europe, even during the most active time of the war. Today
soldiers in Georgia can be in a war zone in less than 48 hours. Does this
also contribute to PTSD? How does it effect their combat readiness.

ObTrav: This would not be a problem for interstellar troops, since minimum
travel time is a week. Maximum travel time could be much higher. (Which is
why I especially have a problem with GT designs which use bunkrooms.) Could
a really large troop transport incorporate a habitat module to use as a
training area? It strikes me that a holoventure module might work really
well for battledress units and vehicle drivers (tank, fighter, etc.) but
that regular troops will need more room to practice small unit tactics,
unless the holoventure studios work as good as ST holodecks.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
 <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]>

At 4:14 AM -0400 8/4/02, hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>Hello Tim,
>   The missile damage rules in GURPS TRAVELLER make missile craft that much
>   more deadly than they were in any other TRAVELLER incarnation.  I
>   personally do not use the GURPS STARSHIP combat rules as presented, nor
>   am I pleased with rendition of the Meson weapons in the GURPS TRAVELLER
>   rule set.  Having said that however, I would be pleased to discuss the
>   topic matter you proposed...

Missiles are very damaging.  However, they also can be intercepted. 
The utility of missiles depends on how many missiles you have vs how 
much point defense you foe has.  I think, in the setting, there is 
the usual game of trying to get you measures to overcome the foes 
countermeasures.  However, dropping missiles entirely, going heaving 
into point defense, and  using other weapons for a kill can be a 
viable route.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for the Atro-genius Types (was: System Gen
 Help)
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020804141737.00ac52f0@mail.pi.se>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020804141737.00ac52f0@mail.pi.se>
Message-ID: <p04330101b97312dbe956@[198.123.22.192]>

Note: you don't come in from out of the solar system and drop into an 
orbit.  To capture _any_ body from outside the solar system requires 
interactions with other bodies (otherwise the velocity you built up 
comeing in just pushes you right back out again).  If you sling shot 
around something and loose velocity, you will settle into some sort 
of orbit (barring collisions).  However, this orbit will be perturbed 
over time and generally settle into some smaller subset of stable 
orbits.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <02080313391901.00601@linux>

>  >> How serious is the trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took place
>  >> because the small island of England was not self-sufficient in either
>  >> agricultural or industrial matters, but I don't think this situation
>  >> will arise on many _planets_.  
>
>
>cough cough
	How many dinky airless rockballs with large populations do the world 
generation rules permit? 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:36:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:36:20 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
In-Reply-To: <B9701696.6773B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B9701696.6773B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <02080313573002.00601@linux>

>
> Just to bring this back to Traveller,  how do the Imperium portray it's
> adversaries?  We can probably guess that the Solomani do a bit of
> dehumanizing propaganda against their Imperial foe.  How does the Imperium
> portray the Zhodani and Solomani to it's citizenry.  And is there an
> Imperial Ministry for Propaganda?

	I seem to recall an article in the old JTAS about racial epithets for the 
5th Frontier War. It was printed at about the time of FFW release. So, yes, 
racial slurs for the buzzheads and doggies and pinkies...etc. can be 
considered canon. 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:37:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:37:34 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CF7@USCHM203>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CF7@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <02080314013103.00601@linux>

On Friday 02 August 2002 01:43 pm, you wrote:
> >The Germans, and
> >
>  >particularly the Japanese were horribly dehumanized.  We made our enemies
>  >into monsters so then it was OK to exterminate them.
>
> If there was any dehumanizing of the Germans and Japanese, they did it
> themselves through their own brutality.
> _______________________________________________
>	Project 741 tested biological warfare on helpless POW's (Americans)
The US Government tested/tests biological agents on its own citizens.

	My point is that in war,...all sides are capable of being monstrous bastards.
Part of propaganda's job is to make the 'good guys' look good.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:38:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:38:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com>
References: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com>
Message-ID: <02080314301904.00601@linux>

> That's all local.  If a system is really strapped, I'd send some fleet
> escorts to help out.  War is not always imminent, after all.  Too, while
> the Imperium cares about some weapons, why should it care about the
> smuggling of anything else?  "Admiral!  Smugglers are transporting illegal
> cargos of cigarettes to Zivije!"  "Ensign, go there immediately.  Buy me a
> few packs."
>
 I would think the Imperium would frown on many black market activities.
It avoids tribute to Emperor.
It undermines legitimate corporate profits and business practices.	
	As the Emperor is an active share-holder in many corporations and 
subsidiaries, it bites into his take directly. Not to mention the large 
amount of influence that mega-corps hold at all politiccal levels, they would 
insist even at a local level that the government put a stop to smuggling.
	Governments exist to ensure stable trade.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <fc.1bc430d6.2a7d06b7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEKGEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
 >big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.

I think that we had a long thread on this subject last year. One of the
things suggested was the use of X-ray Laser det mines. I posted a design
which allow either a ship or remote sensor platform to detonate the mines
when a ship came within range. The mines consisted of a nuclear warhead that
created a single pulse Xaser. This gave them the necessary range, a single
10,000 mile GURPS Traveller hex, to be effective weapons. Some one else
posted a TNE design for the same thing.

As I recall they were not that easy to find but would have been a much
bigger challenge to merchant and patrol craft than to capital ships. As with
all such weapons their greatest effect was to require opposing ships to be
looking for them and perhaps avoid them.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <ca.f8487da.2a7e2802@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020804105439.349f0cc8@pop.mindspring.com>

At 02:47 AM 8/4/2002 EDT, you wrote:
> >Cool.  And in the same time, you have the Zhos coming from everywhere (the
> >Consulate is much smaller, y'know) and the Zho's destroying the ares you
> >were supposed to be defending!  If you are lucky, you'll be killed in
> >battle, and won't be hung for gross incompetence.
> >
> >Mission is everything.  If you have been attacked, your first duty as an
> >Imperial officer is to defend the state.  Taking the war to the enemy's
> >home is a political decision.
>
>It seems I am to be the passive blind recipient of whatever comes my way, 
>while my opponent is free to act with clear vision.  You're right.  I'd
>lose.

Not if you keep your mission in mind.  Defense of the Imperium.  Put battle
fleets around critical systems like Jewell and Regina.  Have cruiser
squadrons covering approaches like those I detailed in my "Jewell Cluster"
plan.  You can take the offensive, but only after you have secured you own
territory from attack.  Hell, send raiders into Zho forward bases like
Cipango and Farreach. They won't do much real damage, but it will tie down
some of his reinforcements to rear defense. A squadron of 3,000 dton
destroyers can raise merry havoc against an orbital port.

An important part of defense is divining enemy intentions.  Take my Jewell
gambit.  You will have scouts as well, and looking at my moves, it will
soon become obvious that my main goal is Jewell itself.  Patience is the
Admiral's friend.  Look for your chance to exploit the enemy strategy to
your own ends.  Hassle him.  Take out outposts like Farreach, which secures
Efate and the Regina frontier along with giving you another axis of attack.
 Jewell is a high-pop world, and can hold out *for a time.*  In this case,
you aren't sacrificing worlds in order to seek out a decisive fleet
engagement; you are making strategic decisions that save the majority of
the important worlds of the sector.

Gather your reinforcements, then strike.  When you do attack, it must be an
overwhelming blow to the enemy.  Additional reinforcements are too far away
to make a difference. Go in with at least a 3:1 advantage in both tonnage
and firepower.  Try to make the engagement come at Jewell.  This way, you
will be able to stir up the anger and resolve of your forces with images of
a billion people under the yoke of the mind-raping scum.  This will be a
factor.  

After Jewell, assuming you win, do you go further?  Not unless Duke Norris
tells you to do so.  You, Admiral, are an instrument of policy.  Policy is
made by the bosses.  Let's say that Norris ate his Wheaties this morning.
You now face the opposite problem, planning an invasion.  The first thing
you do is define the exact goals of the mission: what are the exact
objectives.

Let's define it this way: remove the Zhodani from the Spinward Marches.
Your objective is obviously going to be Chronor.  Plan from there.  Main
attack, supporting attack, screening elements, ground troops.  With Chronor
neutralized, the other worlds in Jewell and Querion are isolated and can be
picked off one by one at your leisure, either through military action or
diplomatic efforts.

The point I, and the others are trying to make is that sub-battleship ships
serve a purpose.  A fleet needs ships it can spare for escort duty,
garrisoning small systems, feints, minor attacks.. every battleship not
built pays for a handful of cruisers or dozens of frigate/destroyer sized
ships.  Think versatility.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Embrace Fascism.    The uniforms look cool


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:29:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:29:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Check Your Landgrabs!
In-Reply-To: <1ad.629357b.2a7e2295@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020804105844.353f9bfc@pop.mindspring.com>

At 02:24 AM 8/4/2002 EDT, you wrote:
>What is the landgrab?

Claim a world in one of the published settings.  Detail the hell out of it.
Use any system you like. Publish the results here for everyone to admire.
Or put it up on the web, and post the link here for everyone to click.

Started during a hideously off-topic period of the TML's history by some
weirdo with a thing for penguins.  We've had a pretty good time with it.
--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                   - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:30:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:30:12 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was  COTI website)
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPGEAHEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <20020804060231.5D9A02793A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020804110019.353f3a82@pop.mindspring.com>

At 04:21 PM 8/4/2002 +0800, you wrote:
>Was that spam and eggs
>or spam, spam egs and spam?

Spam spam spam spam spam spam spam lovely spam, wonderful spam...
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:31:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:31:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Paging Martin Dougherty
In-Reply-To: <008101c23b82$ff35d320$8a0fbd50@martinjd>
References: <20020804013343.15643.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020804110258.353f8dd6@pop.mindspring.com>

At 07:48 AM 8/4/2002 +0100, you wrote:

>Uhh? It Morning. Me Brain-Slow. Remind What Information?
>Me Find Breakfast Cereal Now. Kill And Eat Cereal. Cereal Good.

Eek! A cereal killer loose in the TML!
-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of
limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:32:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:32:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <10.22d0c4c9.2a7e1fae@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020804111013.353f8596@pop.mindspring.com>

At 02:11 AM 8/4/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>But I'd love to play it.  You're right, I think victories are achieved 
>militarily.

Some of the time.  But you think tactically, while we are think strategically.

"Amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics."
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Death is an experience best avoided, as it makes
reliable internet access difficult to obtain.
                       - Xaonon, in alt.atheism

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:33:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:33:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
In-Reply-To: <200208040317.MAB01365@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020804111806.2cb706d8@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:17 PM 8/3/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>(Doug says, 'Who is Richard Tucholka?' )

Doug has everything Tri-Tac every published, he thinks, and an autographed
copy of "Stalking the Night Fantastic", thank you very much  :)
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:34:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:34:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <003601c23bb9$68924480$0616bd50@martinjd>
References: <20020804113405.2614.19201.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <001001c23bb4$101d4160$92aa5940@dixienet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020804112446.2cb71a74@pop.mindspring.com>

At 02:17 PM 8/4/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>
> ONLY the Master sees BOTH fleet positions - EVER. Opponents find out by
> ships finding each other. Politial rules prevent FLEETS ( 5 ships per
> group ) from crossing borders with declarations of war made.

I played in a double-blind 5FW game as the Zhodani commander.  We had a
bunch of house rules, and each fleet had a serperate Admiral.  It took
months, but I followed the basic attack plan I outlined in my other post.

War in the Third Imperium is a game of hide & seek.  Intelligence is
everything.  Planning is everything else.  I had a good plan, and the
"staff understood their roles, and how much discretion they had inside
their missions.  Third Assault Fleet's commander was decorated for his
audacious feints that drew four Imperial fleets away from relieving Jewell
and chasing him all over Lunion and Glisten.

When it was over, the Jewell cluster had been brought into the fold of
civilization.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry      gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"Well, thanks to the Internet, I'm now bored
 with sex." - Fry, Futurama

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:36:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:36:34 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Baboon Class Missile Frigate CREWS
Message-ID: <200208041828.g74ISow12329@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Flykiller@aol.com
>Subject: [TML] RE: Baboon Class Missile Frigate CREWS
...
>I think the big problem with this kind of boat is not their inefficiency, but 
>their crews.  It would be hard enough to get competent and willing captains, 
>pilots, and engineers with the necessary decades of experience for a few 
>heavily armed and armored capital ships that have adequate living space and 
>support cargo.  Finding thousands of deployable captains, pilots, and 
>engineers who would be willing to live and fight in barely-adequate 
>Volkswagens (as it were) would be a major problem.  I think this difficulty 
>should be reflected in their skill levels.  I know TCS specifically and 
>categorically states otherwise, but I think this issue is just too big and 
>reasonable to so breezily ignore it.

  I agree that it's a major issue, although the demographics and
economy of the 3I/OTU make it not critical for warship fleets.
The fighter swarm forces will have problems - the question might
be how good the commanders for any light warships will be?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Movies
Message-ID: <1a2.65f889d.2a7ed1b3@aol.com>

>  I hang out with several military history types
>(professors and non-profs).  There's a few complaints
>with GETTYSBURG's (and others') historical accuracy or
>getting the wrong people in the wrong roles.  Some 
>can't stand Short's accent, Berringer's false beard,
>or this aspect or that.  I enjoyed the movie

>regardless. 

It is as close as Hollywood ever gets (and frankly, it is as close as we can 
ever hope to get). Movies ALWAYS compress events, eliminate characters, and 
re-arrange things in the name of drama. But then again, so did the novel (THE 
KILLER ANGELS) hat the movie was based on. 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
Message-ID: <3D4D776E.B78FF865@mail.cswnet.com>

>Depart now and you forever separate 
>yourselves from the vital gaming legacies of James Dunnigan, 
>Steve Jackson, Gary Gygax, Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank 
>Chadwick, Andrew Keith, William Keith, John Harshman, 
>Professor Barker, and Richard Tucholka.

Professor Barker {?} info please.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for the Atro-genius Types (was: System Gen     Help)
In-Reply-To: <p04330101b97312dbe956@[198.123.22.192]>
Message-ID: <20020804190454.32509.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

So the answer is that, while unlikely, it is possible.

Makes for an interesting detail, and I kinda like it.

Thanks for the help everyone.

Paul


--- "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> Note: you don't come in from out of the solar system
> and drop into an 
> orbit.  To capture _any_ body from outside the solar
> system requires 
> interactions with other bodies (otherwise the
> velocity you built up 
> comeing in just pushes you right back out again). 
> If you sling shot 
> around something and loose velocity, you will settle
> into some sort 
> of orbit (barring collisions).  However, this orbit
> will be perturbed 
> over time and generally settle into some smaller
> subset of stable 
> orbits.
> -- 
> ______________________________
> summers@alum.mit.edu
> (This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in
> Boston, but I'm in California.)
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:06:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:06:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
Message-ID: <181.c196c70.2a7ed4f5@aol.com>

MJ Dougherty writes:

>> > Why do you want fighters to be more effective?
>>
>> So that they can have an outside possibility of damaging Capital ships
>at
>> high TL
>
>And again, why do you want this? Barring me swallowing some and suffering
>some strange kind of poisoning, no amount of flies can beat me in a straight
>fight. My feeling is that fighters are good for screening and keeping
>merchies in line. Big ships are for killing big ships.

"Screening?"  If, by rule and design, fighters can't affect anything much 
more than 100 times their size, AND can't get sufficient squadron or fleet 
level coordination to act as a coherent battery, then they have no chance of 
acting in a screening role *either*, since they won't have sufficient rating 
to affect passing missile barrages and can't be effectively put in a place to 
intercept those missile even if they *could* stop any.

Allowing for whole squadrons to have that outside chance *at range* means the 
opponent has to respond to them with escorts or fighters of their own, which, 
of course, leads to mounting of direct-fire weapons on the fighters as well. 
If you are only using "fighters" as extensions of your sensor-space, the way 
they are used and fielded changes completely. The first change will be that 
no one carries squadrons into war, only raids. Capital ships will carry only 
enough to use as "sensor drones", and no ship will likely be designed with 
massive rapid-launch capabilities (ie. launch tubes).
It's simple, really. If fighters aren't a threat in a line battle, then your 
opponent will have never built his own after seeing yours.

As a TNE fan, Martin, you should be very familiar with this argument, because 
this is *exactly* the line of thought that lead to the big det-laser missiles 
of TNE, and a combat system that would make such torps useful.

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Movies
In-Reply-To: <1a2.65f889d.2a7ed1b3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B972CA46.67D2A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/4/02 11:51 AM, GDWGAMES@aol.com at GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

>> I hang out with several military history types
>> (professors and non-profs).  There's a few complaints
>> with GETTYSBURG's (and others') historical accuracy or
>> getting the wrong people in the wrong roles.  Some
>> can't stand Short's accent, Berringer's false beard,
>> or this aspect or that.  I enjoyed the movie
> 
>> regardless. 
> 
> It is as close as Hollywood ever gets (and frankly, it is as close as we can
> ever hope to get). Movies ALWAYS compress events, eliminate characters, and
> re-arrange things in the name of drama. But then again, so did the novel (THE
> KILLER ANGELS) hat the movie was based on.


More info on the next Ron Maxwell film "Gods and Generals" can be found at
the web site http://www.godsandgenerals.com/

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Check Your Landgrabs!
Message-ID: <3D4D7CCE.FE3EF458@mail.cswnet.com>

Flykiller asks;
>What is the landgrab?

Oh, my good man, a landgrab is one of the most beautiful things in all
the universe. I highly recomend building one for yourself today!
For more info, go to this sight:

http://www.downport.com/landgrab/

Now, if I can put my Arba Real Estate hat on...

There are some good open frontier systems just waiting to be snatched up
in the Lunion and Vilis subsectors; Adabicci [has a class A port],
Rabwhar [has a scout base and a megacorps lab]. Over in Vilis, Vilis
itself hasn't been grabbed, plus Choleosti and Margesi. 

Get'em while there hot!

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:19:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:19:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
In-Reply-To: <3D4D776E.B78FF865@mail.cswnet.com>
References: <3D4D776E.B78FF865@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <kbvqkus21i0n0h2fmi9s0sq6fh7j9jnuj8@4ax.com>

On Sun, 04 Aug 2002 13:50:22 -0500, Roseberry
<rosebee@mail.cswnet.com> wrote:

>>Depart now and you forever separate=20
>>yourselves from the vital gaming legacies of James Dunnigan,=20
>>Steve Jackson, Gary Gygax, Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank=20
>>Chadwick, Andrew Keith, William Keith, John Harshman,=20
>>Professor Barker, and Richard Tucholka.
>
>Professor Barker {?} info please.

Empire of the Petal Throne, IIRC.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was  COTI website)
Message-ID: <3D4D7DDB.3B73E32A@mail.cswnet.com>

<snippaged>
>>Was that spam and eggs
>>or spam, spam egs and spam?

>Spam spam spam spam spam spam spam lovely spam, wonderful spam...

"Bloody Vikings!"

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Paging Martin Dougherty
Message-ID: <3D4D7EA9.6E1529D3@mail.cswnet.com>

>snippaged<
>>Uhh? It Morning. Me Brain-Slow. Remind What Information?
>>Me Find Breakfast Cereal Now. Kill And Eat Cereal. Cereal Good.

>Eek! A cereal killer loose in the TML!

Obviously an eater of NIETZCHE POPS, The Uber Breakfast!
I prefer Space Flakes (tm) myself.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
In-Reply-To: <3D4D776E.B78FF865@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEKJEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>Depart now and you forever separate
>>yourselves from the vital gaming legacies of James Dunnigan,
>>Steve Jackson, Gary Gygax, Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank
>>Chadwick, Andrew Keith, William Keith, John Harshman,
>>Professor Barker, and Richard Tucholka.
>
>Professor Barker {?} info please.
>
>Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>
Why the creator of "Empire of the Petal Throne" possibly the most complex
game world ever created, certainly one of the most complex not based on
Western mythology/ideology. (In this case I would count Traveller as based
on Western mythology since it is based on the classic science fiction of the
golden era, which is certainly a western literary mythology.)


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:30:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:30:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Paging Martin Dougherty
Message-ID: <memo.598862@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <3D4D7EA9.6E1529D3@mail.cswnet.com>
> Obviously an eater of NIETZCHE POPS, The Uber Breakfast!
> I prefer Space Flakes (tm) myself.

I go for Cthulhu-hoops every time :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:36:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:36:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Paging Martin Dougherty
In-Reply-To: <memo.598862@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020804193546.5A5D02793A@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/04/02 at 08:28 PM,  mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan
Robertson) said:

>In-Reply-To: <3D4D7EA9.6E1529D3@mail.cswnet.com>
>> Obviously an eater of NIETZCHE POPS, The Uber Breakfast!
>> I prefer Space Flakes (tm) myself.

>I go for Cthulhu-hoops every time :-)

I think that's marketed as Captain Cthulhu on this side of the pond.
;->

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:40:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:40:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
In-Reply-To: <3D4D776E.B78FF865@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <20020804193937.669AD2793A@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/04/02 at 01:50 PM,  Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com> said:

>>Depart now and you forever separate 
>>yourselves from the vital gaming legacies of James Dunnigan, 
>>Steve Jackson, Gary Gygax, Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank 
>>Chadwick, Andrew Keith, William Keith, John Harshman, 
>>Professor Barker, and Richard Tucholka.

>Professor Barker {?} info please.

Professor Barker created the "Empire of the Petal Throne" setting as a
youth, and has been adding to it for low these many years. The only
fantasy I ever played (as opposed to GMing) in, until recently, was an
EotPT game.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: meduim navies
Message-ID: <3D4D82E0.C26DA8F1@mail.cswnet.com>

Well, I just got done last night with Regina subsector, and came up with
a problem with the TL6- worlds. Basically, using the mercenary rule from
small navies just makes these worlds have massive merc navies [in Enopes
case, almost a Merc TCS]. So, until I can think up
a better way to tweak TL6- worlds, I'm just going to remove them
entirely. They'll still be counted for the 30% Imperial Navy tax, but
the rest of their budget won't be used. This I think gets it close to
the way it is in the FFW game. 

As for tweaking TL6- worlds, when I get done posting this I'm going to
go dig out the TNE Path of Tears supplement and see if that might be
usefull. I dunno.

I'll post up tax returns for Regina and Lanth, plus repost Lunion with
the removed TL6- worlds, latter tonight probably.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
Message-ID: <197.adccb8b.2a7edf13@aol.com>

Flykiller writes:

> >All I am doing is letting Fighters act like Turrets. If several turrets
>can
> >concentrate their fire to increase their effectiveness, why can't several
> >fighters?
>
>You could extend this same concept to spinal mount vessels.
>

You could, but you'd be inventing extensions to the charts to do so (as in, 
what is the rating of a pair of Meson-T's?), while the concept of grouping 
turrets is already part of the game and is incorporated into the charts.  
From a RL standpoint, grouping spinal fire also requires that you get several 
*large* ships to all point at one target long enough to acquire, aim, and 
fire.  Missiles aim themselves, and laser turrets (to carry the fighters as 
battery concept to defense) are articulated and thus also aimable without 
involving the engines.

In case you are wondering, this is my long way of saying "no, you can't".

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 14:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 13:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Failing planets
Message-ID: <98.29e35cc8.2a7ee374@aol.com>

Flykiller writes:

> >If planets are so self sufficient, then why does TNE describe planets
> >failing because they were cut off from interstellar trade?
>
>Don't know.  Doesn't make much sense to me.  I can see it happening here
>and there of course, but not en masse.  TNE may state it, but that's not 
>necessarily a reason to just swallow it.

Which just tells me you haven't read TNE. Not to worry, it's a common sin on 
this list.

It is based on the supposition that listed TL is "locally producable and 
maintainable" and the observation (made here many times) that many worlds 
don't seem to make sense in terms of environment and TL match (type B 
atmosphere and TL2, for example). TNE explained these cases as being 
supported by trade. If the trade dries up, and the world can't maintain the 
equipment that keeps it alive, eventually the world dies.  Add Virus and the 
after-effects of a 24-year long war that went into scorched earth tactics for 
the last five, and planets that *had* sufficient TL before may no longer. All 
it takes is that Virus-infected system to kill all the on-hand spares and 
blow up the factory, starport, and internal delivery systems (not uncommon 
for a Virus strike), and your life-support systems are dead in a few days. If 
Mr. Virus also sealed all the doors out of your arcology and turns the 
security systems on anyone who looks organized, then even a green and 
pleasant world can turn into a tomb.

Note that, for all the Virus-haters out there, the Black War and plain old 
human panic/stupidity can accomplish much the same results, often just as 
quickly.

I'm not going to take this further right now, as it drags in many of the TMLs 
classic battles, including the nature of Tech Level, commerce models, Virus, 
and the randomness of UWPs.

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 14:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 13:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
Message-ID: <137.122edd2d.2a7ee774@aol.com>

Flykiller writes:

> >Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
> >big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.
>
>What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other sensor systems
>you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?
>

Not the point. In space, mines are *terrain*, not ambushers.  Got an enemy 
force vectoring your way? Drop mines behind you in an area you think it 
likely he *has* to fly through. If he sees the mines, he may break off early 
enough to miss them, giving you either an escape option or (if properly 
deployed) a positional advantage for returning the attack.

What really affects mines is the same factor that affects fighters: will they 
be big enough to have *any* effect, even if they score a hit?

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 14:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug  4 13:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
Message-ID: <200208042039.MBL00293@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Roseberry asks
>Professor Barker {?} info please.

Empire of the Petal Throne...
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 15:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Aug  4 14:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
In-Reply-To: <137.122edd2d.2a7ee774@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B972E6BF.67D85%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/4/02 1:24 PM, GypsyComet@aol.com at GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:

> Not the point. In space, mines are *terrain*, not ambushers.  Got an enemy
> force vectoring your way? Drop mines behind you in an area you think it
> likely he *has* to fly through. If he sees the mines, he may break off early
> enough to miss them, giving you either an escape option or (if properly
> deployed) a positional advantage for returning the attack.

And also possibly making his sensors go active.  If the mines are stealthy
enough, he won't be able to detect them with passive sensors.
> 
> What really affects mines is the same factor that affects fighters: will they
> be big enough to have *any* effect, even if they score a hit?

That is the question.  But mines will be far cheaper than fighters.  No life
support, rudimentary controls, simple drive systems.  Probably fear cheaper.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 15:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Asbury)
Date: Sun Aug  4 14:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Professor Barker??
References: <20020804190005.1656.32029.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000601c23c02$0d81b280$08984c51@oemcomputer>

>>Depart now and you forever separate
>>yourselves from the vital gaming legacies of James Dunnigan,
>>Steve Jackson, Gary Gygax, Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank
>>Chadwick, Andrew Keith, William Keith, John Harshman,
>>Professor Barker, and Richard Tucholka.
>
>Professor Barker {?} info please.
>
>Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

Empire of the Petal Throne!

It was a early D&D derivative by the above mentioned prof.

It had a very oriental feel with him having a background in linguistics (and
it counted as sci-fi due to the strange background history... Humans and
other aliens try to terraform a planet, much to the anoyance of it
inhabitants, entire solar system disappears into a void, leaving everybody
up the creak, a few thousand years regression (theres no iron on planet!)
and alternate cultural development  later and enter the PCs.

It spawn numerous expansions, and two  novels bu M.A.R. Barker himself.

Major prob with this world? pronouncing the words! He did a Tolkien and
created his own languages and scripts.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 16:00:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug  4 15:00:34 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com> <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net> <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020805075953.A24737@freeman.little-possums.net>

hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> Hello Tim,
>   The missile damage rules in GURPS TRAVELLER make missile craft that much
>   more deadly than they were in any other TRAVELLER incarnation.

Oh.  Here was I thinking that the missiles were suboptimal and could
have been designed better and cheaper.  For example, it is trivial to
design a missile turret that can launch and control 20 missiles per
combat turn, each costing less than half as much with better
acceleration and damage.

If they are already vastly better than in previous Travelelr versions,
there's not really much point I guess. :-/



>  I personally do not use the GURPS STARSHIP combat rules as
>  presented,

Do you use something close, or a drastic re-write?  (Or not at all?)


> nor am I pleased with rendition of the Meson weapons in the GURPS
> TRAVELLER rule set.

They do look a little icky to me too.  What bothers you most?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 16:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug  4 15:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com> <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net> <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]>
Message-ID: <20020805081803.B24737@freeman.little-possums.net>

David P. Summers wrote:
> Missiles are very damaging.  However, they also can be intercepted.
> The utility of missiles depends on how many missiles you have vs how
> much point defense you foe has.

Yes, I'd noticed that too.  In particular, the existing missiles and
launchers can be greatly upgraded to achieve much better results
against point defense for rather little cost.  However, given other
comments it looks like doing so would take it even further away from
previous versions of Traveller. :-/


> However, dropping missiles entirely, going heaving into point
> defense, and using other weapons for a kill can be a viable route.

It seems that would be a good idea if your ship needs to spend a long
time away from resupply, but not good for actual battle capability.
Using the full Vehicles rules, I was unable to design a craft that
could mount enough point defense weapons to last more than a round or
two.

The other problem I noted is the short range of direct-fire weapons.
None of the presented beams could touch anything beyond 30 hexes.
Missiles (even the wimpy predesigned ones) can hit from 50 or so
hexes.

Of course, missiles have to be replaced -- beam weapons fire forever.
Were these factors not present in previous Traveller incarnations?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 16:20:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ludwig)
Date: Sun Aug  4 15:20:04 2002
Subject: [TML] prejudice (OT)
In-Reply-To: <55.2b3ad1ac.2a7dc32f@aol.com>
References: <55.2b3ad1ac.2a7dc32f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020804181934.4890b45c.mariachi@mac.com>

On Sat, 3 Aug 2002 19:37:19 EDT
Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

[...]
> The military rejects enlistment of those 32 and older (if I recall 
> correctly)
[...]

35 and older in the Navy.  IRL, that is.  Dunno about Traveller.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 16:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug  4 15:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <02080313391901.00601@linux>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux>
Message-ID: <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net>

richard honeycutt wrote:
> 	How many dinky airless rockballs with large populations do the
> world generation rules permit?

What does that matter?  They obviously don't need trade for survival.
It's not like they'll starve if you isolate them.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 16:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug  4 15:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEKGEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <fc.1bc430d6.2a7d06b7@aol.com> <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEKGEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20020805082530.D24737@freeman.little-possums.net>

Terry Carlino wrote:
> This gave them the necessary range, a single 10,000 mile GURPS
> Traveller hex, to be effective weapons.

Ah, that explains it.  You're using a two-dimensional map.  Yes, if
you can restrict spacecraft to move in a plane, then I agree that
space mines can be effective.  (But even then, only if you don't use
the GURPS Traveller space combat system)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 16:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Sun Aug  4 15:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Professor Barker??
In-Reply-To: <000601c23c02$0d81b280$08984c51@oemcomputer>
References: <20020804190005.1656.32029.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020804172747.0469acb0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

For more detail, check out:

www.tekumel.com

Cheers!  (or Ngangmuru! if you wish)

At 10:58 PM 8/4/02 +0100, you wrote:

> >>Depart now and you forever separate
> >>yourselves from the vital gaming legacies of James Dunnigan,
> >>Steve Jackson, Gary Gygax, Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank
> >>Chadwick, Andrew Keith, William Keith, John Harshman,
> >>Professor Barker, and Richard Tucholka.
> >
> >Professor Barker {?} info please.
> >
> >Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
>
>Empire of the Petal Throne!
>
>It was a early D&D derivative by the above mentioned prof.
>
>It had a very oriental feel with him having a background in linguistics (and
>it counted as sci-fi due to the strange background history... Humans and
>other aliens try to terraform a planet, much to the anoyance of it
>inhabitants, entire solar system disappears into a void, leaving everybody
>up the creak, a few thousand years regression (theres no iron on planet!)
>and alternate cultural development  later and enter the PCs.
>
>It spawn numerous expansions, and two  novels bu M.A.R. Barker himself.
>
>Major prob with this world? pronouncing the words! He did a Tolkien and
>created his own languages and scripts.
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 17:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Aug  4 16:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
In-Reply-To: <B972E6BF.67D85%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <137.122edd2d.2a7ee774@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4E5E7E.26225.7DEF71@localhost>

On 4 Aug 2002 at 14:12, Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 8/4/02 1:24 PM, GypsyComet@aol.com at GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:
> 
> > Not the point. In space, mines are *terrain*, not ambushers.  Got an enemy
> > force vectoring your way? Drop mines behind you in an area you think it
> > likely he *has* to fly through. If he sees the mines, he may break off early
> > enough to miss them, giving you either an escape option or (if properly
> > deployed) a positional advantage for returning the attack.
> 
> And also possibly making his sensors go active.  If the mines are stealthy
> enough, he won't be able to detect them with passive sensors.
> > 
> > What really affects mines is the same factor that affects fighters: will they
> > be big enough to have *any* effect, even if they score a hit?
> 
> That is the question.  But mines will be far cheaper than fighters.  No life
> support, rudimentary controls, simple drive systems.  Probably fear cheaper.

Here's a cheap TL15 mine, made using FF&S1 + Vampire Fleets (for the 
robot brain). I assume that for a weapon to be fully independent it 
must have a robot brain with the requisite skills (in this case Sensers 
and Gunnery).

TL Guidance Vol Mass AV MCr   G-Turns Warhead Hits Damage  Range Comm 
15 Full-Ind 1   1.18 3  1.527 3/3     50kt    1D6  1/14-43 0     10L

Sensor Signatures     Asset
1P     	+4/+3/+4/+3/+1 4/8

Because it has the warhead's built-in laser receiver it can also be 
used as a low-acceleration controlled missile. It has 3 G-turns of 
acceleration because that was the smallest practical rocket available 
and it has to have some manoeuvrability to be able to get into 
detonation range of a target. It would probably be programmed to attack 
any enemy vessel that came within 3 hexes (90,000km) of it and that it 
could get a lock on.

The biggest weakness is that power for the passive sensor, EMM system 
and brain is only good for 12 hours. Also it's surprsingly expensive 
(it costs more than a standard TL15 space combat missile), with most of 
the extra cost coming from the sensor.

Because it is only 1 m^3 in volume it can be carried in very large 
amounts (this is 1/7th the volume of a standard TNE space combat 
missile), and deployed in large numbers.

And for those who have money to burn:

TL Guidance Vol Mass AV MCr   G-Turns Warhead Hits Damage  Range Comm
15 Full-Ind 7   7.32 3  5.232 4/4     500ktx2 2D6  1/25-79 0     10L

Sensor Signatures     Asset
2P     	+4/+3/+4/+3/+1 6/16

Probably way too expensive for most people, but it should ruin the day 
of any smaller vessel that runs into a field of them.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 17:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 16:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <02080313391901.00601@linux>
 <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
 <02080313391901.00601@linux>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804192145.024cac00@192.168.0.1>

At 08:19 AM 8/5/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>richard honeycutt wrote:
> >       How many dinky airless rockballs with large populations do the
> > world generation rules permit?
>What does that matter?  They obviously don't need trade for survival.
>It's not like they'll starve if you isolate them.

On what do you base that on?


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 17:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sun Aug  4 16:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
References: <181.c196c70.2a7ed4f5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <006001c23c11$6fd780e0$c20fbd50@martinjd>

>
> "Screening?"  If, by rule and design, fighters can't affect anything much
> more than 100 times their size, AND can't get sufficient squadron or fleet
> level coordination to act as a coherent battery, then they have no chance
of
> acting in a screening role *either*, since they won't have sufficient
rating
> to affect passing missile barrages and can't be effectively put in a place
to
> intercept those missile even if they *could* stop any.

Well, it's possible to build an over-weaponed "strike boat" around a
powerful weapon such as a plasma gun. Lots of hurting power for its size and
cost. Fighters can screen vs such attacks. They can act as standoff sensor
and patrol platforms. And they SHOULD be able to kill incoming missiles as
area defense weapons. If they can't then THAT is a rule change that i agree
should be made.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 17:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sun Aug  4 16:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Pilots of the Future (was: warship optimization)
References: <000601c23bd4$abfd1270$6501a8c0@Darla>
Message-ID: <00a201c23c12$53cb3760$c20fbd50@martinjd>

>
> >
> > Main problem with drones is the ECM/ECCM/Jamming seesaw.
> >
> > And control lags over combat distances in space, OC.
> >
>
> That may be true of drones, but unmanned combat aircraft will be
> autonomous to a large degree.  I suspect that "video game reflexes" will
> not be useful skills in operating them - mission planning will be more
> important.

That makes sense. In fact, I wrote something to that effect in my PGW
report.
And then forgot about it. Pure genius.

Me go throw spears at bison now...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 17:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 16:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
Message-ID: <OF622B6C9A.381C2DCD-ONCA256C0B.008138BC@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Martin (I think) wrote:
>>And again, why do you want this? Barring me swallowing some and 
suffering
>>some strange kind of poisoning, no amount of flies can beat me in a 
straight
>>fight.

But a swarm of those killer Mexican bees should have you worried. They can 
kill you.

>>My feeling is that fighters are good for screening and keeping
>>merchies in line. Big ships are for killing big ships.
>
>"Screening?"  If, by rule and design, fighters can't affect anything much 

>more than 100 times their size, AND can't get sufficient squadron or 
fleet 
>level coordination to act as a coherent battery, then they have no chance 
of 
>acting in a screening role *either*,

Huh? There _are_ examples of effective fighter batteries. Now let's see, 
where did I put that reference... <dig, dig> ah yes, the excellent 
Illustrated Traveller Bibliography at:
        http://www.pemaquidsolutions.com/bibliography/

...has a CT section. Fighter batteries are somewhere in one or more of 
these:
        JTAS #14 High Guard: Optional Rules, by Stefan Jones
        JTAS #14 TCS Squadron Design, by Kevin Connolly
        JTAS #15 TCS Squadron Design II, by Kevin Connolly
        JTAS #23 Naval Command, by Jeff Groteboer
        JTAS #24 Ref Notes: High Guard and TCS Campaigns, Leroy W.Guatney **
        (** It's by Leroy, but please don't let that put you off! ;-)

...and are definitely in:
        JTAS #27 Fighter Profile: The Rampart IV and V

They are treated just like an extra battery. The only time they could 
affect BIG ships is if they fired nukes, I guess. But they certainly act 
as an effective anti-missile screen.

Ah, look, I'm coming in 1/2-way thru this discussion. Feel free to ignore 
me.  ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 17:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Sun Aug  4 16:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020805081803.B24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <000b01c23c12$0a9e0040$0b01a8c0@duck>

> Of course, missiles have to be replaced -- beam weapons fire forever.
> Were these factors not present in previous Traveller incarnations?

They were in Book 2, but those factors were completely dropped in
High Guard.  Missles were free with an infinite supply.  HG just 
gave cost for the turret or bay weapons.  The ammo was assumed.

For small ships, missles were the only way to go.  You would mount
other stuff to fill out the USP, but missles were how you survived
because a nuclear missle could do near spinal damage without the 
spinal mount.

The other huge plus for HG missles is that they effectively increase
agility.  Since they take no power, they allow smaller power plants
to be used, or allow higher agility for the same sized power plant.

And there is an infinite supply of zero-mass, zero-volume free missles.

What a deal!

Honestly, except for some very specific cases, I have no idea why
anyone would use anything but spinal mesons and gobs and gobs of
missle bays.  The other weapons are just there to pad out the USP.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 17:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 16:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Paging Martin Dougherty
Message-ID: <OF6044E6DB.0B13FF37-ONCA256C0B.008342A9@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

>>> Obviously an eater of NIETZCHE POPS, The Uber Breakfast!
>>> I prefer Space Flakes (tm) myself.
>
>>I go for Cthulhu-hoops every time :-)
>
>I think that's marketed as Captain Cthulhu on this side of the pond.

Conme on! Any self-respecting Traveller should be eating that old 
"Goodies" breakfast staple, "Plastic Spacemen"!!

"Look mum, I found a corn flake!"

;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 17:57:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 16:57:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <c8.2ae3e017.2a7f1945@aol.com>

 >[snip good stuff]
 >ONLY the Master sees BOTH fleet positions - EVER. Opponents find out by
 >ships finding each other. Politial rules prevent FLEETS ( 5 ships per
 >group ) from crossing borders with declarations of war made.
 >
 >Think you can handle that?

Yes, I'd love to.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 18:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 17:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
Message-ID: <OF4B1DD5B4.382CD3B0-ONCA256C0C.000000B8@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

>But mines will be far cheaper than fighters.
>Probably fear cheaper.
          ^^^^
Ah yes, the old "your mine was made by the lowest bidder" concept. ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 18:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 17:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <9a.298a34a5.2a7f1cbe@aol.com>

 >But seriously, the comm delay and limited intelligence turned a wargame into
 >a nightmare.

Explains a lot about why the real military is the way it is.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 18:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 17:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Check Your Landgrabs!
Message-ID: <9b.2b7bf726.2a7f2041@aol.com>

 >>What is the landgrab?
 >
 >Claim a world in one of the published settings.  Detail the hell out of it.
 >Use any system you like. Publish the results here for everyone to admire.
 >Or put it up on the web, and post the link here for everyone to click.

I've done some work on Pagaton.  Is there an official listing of who has 
what, or it is a free-for-all?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 18:33:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 17:33:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: meduim navies
Message-ID: <3D4DC693.966243AF@mail.cswnet.com>

Initial Fleets for Lunion, Lanth, and Regina subsectors using
"meduim navies".

Initial Fleets, Lunion subsector

Imperial Navy MCr 2,835,544.748

Wardn. MCr 55
Smoug MCr 14700
Adabicci MCr 322,000
Zaibon MCr 148.75
Spirelle MCr 312,375
Derchon MCr 36,225
Lunion MCr 3,080,000
Shirine MCr 252
Harvoset MCr 14175
Perisephone MCr 28350
Capon MCr 17,850
Strouden MCr 3,465,000

This is peace time budget x10, using "meduim navies".
Note: I'm using supp3 to start, so Wardn is independent.

Initial Fleets, Lanth subsector

Imperial Navy MCr 68668.554

Extolay MCr 40250
Lanth MCr 220.5
Dinom MCr 63
Ghandi MCr 9.98
Wypoc MCr 267.75
Quopist MCr 1592.5
Treece MCr 105,000
Ivendo MCr 332.5
Tureded MCr 178.5
Equus MCr 66500
Rhise MCr 31.85
Icetina MCr 126
Cogri MCr 1785
Skull MCr 12600

This is peace time budget x10, using "meduim navies".

Initial Fleets, Regina subsector

Imperial Navy MCr 3,957,399.439

Efate MCr 3,220,000
Alell MCr 241,500
Yres MCr 13650
Menorb MCr 603,750
Uakye MCr 120.75
Boughne MCr 189
Hefry MCr 10.5
Ruie. MCr 9,100,000
Jenghe MCr 1365
Regina MCr 422,625
Feri MCr 409,500
Roup MCr 1,260,000
Yori MCr 23275
Dentus MCr 157.5
Wochiers MCr 294,000
Yorbund MCr 35
Moughas MCr 308
Rethe MCr 6,300,000
Inthe MCr 18200
Shionthy MCr 20825

This is peace time budget x10, using "meduim navies".

Notes: I'm using old supp3 for world tech levels, so Kinorb does'nt make
it [TL5]. Also, Yori is figured at TL13. Finally, Shionthys Imperial
Income is not included in the Imperial Fleet listing. I seperated it
because I deemed that income coming from Shionthy would be in the form
of collected CT-Shards, which would not go to local Imperial forces but
rather get sent off to an appropriate depot and/or research station.
This 'income' amounts to MCr892.5 annually. Also,
Shionthy is one of a very few in the Marches that would produce naval
income. The other 3 would be the two Droyne worlds in the Five Sisters
and Lewis in the Aramis subsector. I'm sure none of the three would be
contributing anything to the Imperial Treasury.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 18:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Aug  4 17:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
In-Reply-To: <200208040445160020.54D0CCA6@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
References: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPGEAHEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
 <200208040445160020.54D0CCA6@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <m37kj6jfye.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com> writes:
> 
> So does SPAM survive the Rule of Man, the Long Night and into the
> Third Imperium?

It no longer is manufactures, but reserves of SPAM still exist.  The
stuff lasts forever, you know...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
To murder a man is much odious, to kill a woman is in manner unnatural,
but to slay and destroy innocent babes and young infants, the whole
world abhorreth, and their blood from the earth crieth for vengeance to
almighty God.                                    --Edward Hall, c. 1480

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 18:42:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Aug  4 17:42:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Taxes
In-Reply-To: <000501c23bd4$ab74f6b0$6501a8c0@Darla>
References: <000501c23bd4$ab74f6b0$6501a8c0@Darla>
Message-ID: <m33ctujfxj.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Thomas Barnes" <twb3@charter.net> writes:
>
> IMTU the Imperium gets at 10% tariff on the value of all goods
> shipped interstellar, plus 10% of the fares charged for interstellar
> passage.  The Imperium does not levy any direct taxes on
> individuals.

Those rates would make it _very_ difficult to make a profit as a free
trader...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
If you're a politician, bureaucrat, or cop whose livelihood depends on
the drug war, you're fully as contemptible as any pusher, smuggler, or
cocaine baron--more so, because, unlike them, you profit directly by
destroying what was once the greatest freedom ever known to mankind.
                              --Mirelle Stein, The Productive Class

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 18:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 17:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Imperial Taxes
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGELECEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: hal@buffnet.net
>
>In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head tax" or does it charge
>an income tax on its citizens for its Imperial Budget requirements?  In

In my Traveller universe, the Imperium does not tax individuals directly.
It taxes its member states, and the tax is part of the membership treaty
that the world and the Imperium make when the star system joins the
Imperium.  The treaties vary substantially in defining the tax, but it is
usually based on the gross product of the member.  How the member raises
that tax is the member's business, but it is normally added to the members'
own internal taxation schemes.

The Imperium taxes corporations and other businesses involved in
interstellar trade directly.  For game purposes, I assume that all of the
prices provided by the books that relate to commercial starship operations
are just net of taxes.  Businesses doing only a small amount of interstellar
trade are exempt from direct Imperial taxation.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 18:52:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 17:52:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Check Your Landgrabs!
Message-ID: <3D4DCB21.7989C728@mail.cswnet.com>

>I've done some work on Pagaton.  Is there an official listing of who >has what, or it is a free-for-all?

For more info, go to this sight:

http://www.downport.com/landgrab/

Don't forget these worlds; they haven't been grabbed yet.
Adabicci, Rabwhar, Vilis, Choleosti and Margesi. 

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:02:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:02:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <25.2b8bf94f.2a7e4e43@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000301c23cba$1984c370$1001a8c0@sauron>

CHam628781@aol.com wrote :
> One option is visible fertility - humans are unusual in that
> we don't know when women are in oestrus. In a society where
> that didn't exist there is likely to be tight social control
> over gender interaction.
>
> You might see harem based families (K'Kree) or you might see
> a society where males and females have parrallel societies
> with extremely ritualised methods of interaction, particularly
> if women tend to become fertile at around the same time.
>
> One interesting possibilty is Vagr society where it would be
> obvious to every male within quite a distance that the high
> ranking, young female en route to take part in a political
> wedding and placed in the care of  the PCs by her
> doting (if somewhat inflexible, powerful and violent father)
> has just come "on heat" for the first time...

I have to bring up the Harry Turtledove World War series again here.

The use of ginger as a weapon against the invading "lizards" is just
priceless.

For those that aren't familiar, in the books ginger acts as an intoxicant on
lizard males, and does the same on females, except that it also induces all
the outward signs of oestrus including the release of the associated
pheremones, which in turn generates a matching reation in the male,
resulting in mating being the only thing that any male lizard with in scent
of the ginger-using female can think about.

The effect of sex happening "at any time" on what had been until then a
rigidly controlled society is, um, interesting.

It is really tempting to use this is as a plot on a B'wapp controlled world,
seeing as B'waap are pretty close to Turtledove's lizards otherise.

> Do male Aslan mark their territory?

I don't see why not. Human males do. <grin>

> "Elmer that danged tomcat's peeing on the airlock again! Go
> own scat, shoo - you pee on it you pay for it!"

Do we extend this to Aslan too then?

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:03:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:03:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller webring
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804205811.021c4950@mail.charter.net>

All the current (that I know of) Traveller webrings can be found at
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/RPG/SV/TRAV/TravRings.html

These include the gearhead ring, the deckplans ring, and the Reavers' Deep 
webring.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
A well-educated electorate being necessary to the
prosperity of a free state, the right of the people to
keep and read books, shall not be infringed.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:05:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:05:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Note on the rockhead ring
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804210228.01931b98@mail.charter.net>

The page listed as the ring homepage isn't there.

Try here <http://prattfall.tripod.com/gurps/traveller.html> for more 
information.

----------------------------------------------
"Function in disaster. Finish in style."
-- Lucy Madeira http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
----------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Junk in space
In-Reply-To: <20020730104900.B2820@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20804.181110.0M6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> On the other hand, a 2 cm chunk of something is going to do more
>> than leave a dent.
>
> Such a chunk probably has a kinetic energy of about 1 MJ at best, and
> very likely is travelling at substantially less than the speed of
> sound in starship hull material.

Okay, call it 5 grams. E=.5*m*v^2

1000000 = .5 *.005 * v^2

1e6 = 2.5e-3 * v^2
400e6 = v^2
20e3 = v

Somehow, I doubt that the speed of sound in starship hull material is
20 km/sec!

> I think "make a dent" would be about right.  If one ever hit, which it
> wouldn't unless the sensors were crippled.

Are you going to dodge? Or try to blow it up?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Check Your Landgrabs!
Message-ID: <200208050120.MBT01955@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Roseberry says
>Don't forget these worlds; they haven't been grabbed yet.
>Adabicci, Rabwhar, Vilis, Choleosti and Margesi. 

You're kidding, right?  If so, then I'll grab Vilis.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:25:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:25:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020804232303.7408.33320.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <006701c23c1f$2baff600$195d8690@computer>

> From: Mark Urbin
> At 08:19 AM 8/5/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
> >richard honeycutt wrote:
> > >       How many dinky airless rockballs with large populations do the
> > > world generation rules permit?
> >What does that matter?  They obviously don't need trade for survival.
> >It's not like they'll starve if you isolate them.
>
> On what do you base that on?

I believe he was being sarcastic.

Mind you, I suspect many rockballs would have extensive greenhouses. They
wouldn't necessarily live on imports and Soylent Green.

At least, if _I_ was planning a rockball colony, they would have extensive
greenhouses.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology
Message-ID: <006801c23c1f$2c8101a0$195d8690@computer>

>No, 'cause they'd still not get the full rest needed.  My
>greatgrandfather and grandfather took well over a month to return to
>the US after WWI & WWII; my father was back in college in 48 or so
>hours after his time in Vietnam.  Granted, that's _some_ rest time,
>but it's not nearly enough.  You don't find as much PTSD in fellows
>who got to slowly make their way back home, adjust to the new reality
>&c.; you find quite a lot in guys who are plucked up from one
>situation and dropped in another.

I wouldn't underestimate the frequency of PTSD among WWI and WWII vets. I've
spent quite a bit of time talking to widows of WWII vets, and quite a lot of
them have horror stories of how their husbands would sometimes lose the
plot.

The POWs seem to have had the most problems, of course. This seems to be
true even when they were held by the Germans and Italians, rather than by
the Japanese.

As for WWI, well, let's just say that Australia started having a bit of a
drug problem after 1918.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:28:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:28:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020804173620.8351.57196.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <006901c23c1f$2dd85440$195d8690@computer>

> From: "MJ Dougherty"
> The confirmation came back "Cannot attack. My cuirassiers are in front of
> my lancers. Must redeploy for maximum effectivenesss." (He'd been fiddling
> with his deployments for 3 hours game-time and was now under artillery
fire)

: )

Once in a multi-player Seven Year's War game I moved my general figure over
to where one of my team-mates' general was, and then shouted at the fool.
He'd been moving his artillery backwards and forwards for the whole game,
while my force was fighting superior numbers of Prussians. If his guns had
been firing, we might have won.

I think at some point we probably should get some multi-player strategic
PBEMs going. Something along the lines of FFW, although I don't own a copy
of it.

Hmm. I've always wanted to run an Arbellatra vs Gustus game. Maybe I should
actually do it.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:33:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:33:05 2002
Subject: [TML] prejudice (OT)
In-Reply-To: <20020804181934.4890b45c.mariachi@mac.com>
Message-ID: <000401c23cbe$835713d0$1001a8c0@sauron>

Ludwig wrote :
> Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> [...]
> > The military rejects enlistment of those 32 and older (if I recall
> > correctly)
> [...]
>
> 35 and older in the Navy.  IRL, that is.  Dunno about Traveller.

That's actually a very good point.

In Traveller, with good meditech and anagathics, there's no reason a
forty-year-old couldn't still have a good twenty years of service left in
her.

If you want to extrapolate on current medical capabilities and imagine
several thousand years of good diet and breeding, one could expect it be
common that hard-bitten sixty-year-old warriors would wipe the floor with
mere brats of 35, who have not had enough years of training to even begin to
approach them.

Another point about "combat effectiveness", having just recently watched the
film "Snatch" again. Fitness and training are not neccessarily any match for
brutality and nastiness.
Age, of course, has nothing to do with this.

Many people (especially ex-military types) seem to assume that the measure
of "combat effectivenes" is how fit you are, how well you can stand up on
the battlefield or in a pre-announced fight.

But if you're the sort of nasty little f*ck that stabs people in the balls
when they are not expecting it, just because they made the mistake of
talking to you when you're annoyed , then you can probably kill a lot of
your opponents before they even realize they are in a fight.

IIRC, the infamous "Carlos" otherwise known as "The Jackal" was, during his
most famous escapades, a balding, overweight, middle-aged man who was
completely out of breath after running up a couple of flights of stairs.

I have, on occassion, become involved in violence. In almost all cases,
intimidation was my most effective weapon, and that was all
verbal/psychological intimidation as I am not a large person. In the case's
where intimidation failed, being able to cause extreme pain, and take a few
blows while doing so, was far more important than fitness or fancy
technique.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Landgrab of Vilis
Message-ID: <200208050146.MBV00737@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

If I'm doing Vilis, I think I had better do Garda-Vilis, 
unless someone has already done that one.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Spam Spam Spam Spam...
Message-ID: <19d.66884a1.2a7f37e7@aol.com>

Hunter writes:

>So does SPAM survive the Rule of Man, the Long Night and into the Third=
> Imperium? If so, is it just a Solomani thing, or have the Vilani and=
> others come to enjoy this uniquely Terran... ummm .... stuff? I'm just=
> picturing a group of adventurers finding an old Rule of Man cache,=
> stockpiled with cans of good old SPAM!

I would expect that any planet in Solomani space settled by Hawaiians would 
either create or import vast amounts.  How widespread it would get really 
depends on shelf-life and the viability of swine off Terra. It may just be 
that pigs just don't taste the same when raised elsewhere, and so all Spam 
comes from Terra...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:09:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:09:21 2002
Subject: [TML] adventure
Message-ID: <1ac.6380721.2a7f37b7@aol.com>

Traveller Adventure: Comet Busters

For referees only.  If you intend to play this adventure, quit reading now 
and direct your game referee to this page. 

(continue paging down) 










Requirements 
The adventurers must have their own ship with a cargo space of at least 3 
tons, and vacc suits for all adventurers plus three.  If the vacc suits prove 
to be a major problem then let the players find extra vacc suits in the local 
starport repair shop.  The adventure team must have at least one person with 
engineering skill, preferably two, and at least one with mechanical skill. 

Set-up 
The adventurers have the only ship presently in-system at xxxx.   While 
technically backward the world is sufficiently advanced to have astronomical 
interests.  Recently a large new comet has been detected, and calculations 
have just shown that it will collide with xxxx in less than two days.  xxxx's 
government will send a pair of generals and a squad of troops by helicopter 
to request the ship's captain to come with them to a nearby military base 
where he will meet xxxx's supreme leader.  This leader will inform the 
captain of the situation his planet faces, and will (firmly) ask him to take 
on board several nuclear weapons and a nuclear weapons team and to deliver 
them to the comet, where they hope to to break it up.  Should the captain or 
the other adventurers prove less than altruistic the government will offer 
the following as incentives:  land holdings planetside, 1 million credits, 
large business-oriented interest-free loans, and lifetime tax- and duty-free 
status, for each adventurer.  This is the "Hero of xxxx" monetary award, and 
has been awarded by this planet only a few dozen times in its history. 

Should the adventurers demand further payments the government will agree to 
anything while the crisis is pending, but will then defer payment 
authorization to the proper bureaucracy, which will deny any payment greater 
than that listed above.  "This is not constitutionally authorized etc." 

The nukes are primitive and bulky, and will require manual detonation.  Any 
member of the weapons team will volunteer as necessary to make the devices 
work. 

All payment agreements will be with the government chief executive, and will 
be verbal.  Any payments made will be on mission accomplishment, not before. 

The general population will not be notified of the impending catastrophe. 

Begin Mission 
If the adventurers' captain agrees to this mission he will be immediately 
helicoptered back to his vessel, along with several generals, a squad of 
soldiers, and three wooden-crated nuclear devices.  The cases have simple 
manual control panels on the outside, with connector jacks and hand-held 
pushbutton actuators.  They are escorted by a weapons team, two young 
lieutenants and a tough-looking sergeant who are volunteering to deliver 
these devices and detonate them.  On arrival at the ship the nukes will be 
loaded into the cargo space immediately and the adventurers will be asked to 
begin their mission without delay since time is short.  If the adventurers 
insist on inspecting the cargo before it is loaded aboard they will be 
permitted to do so.  If there are not enough vacc suits then someone should 
bring up this issue now, and a frantic general search should ensue. 

Maneuvering to the Comet 
The weapons team will have sidearms and combat knives, both visible and 
concealed, as a matter of policy.  "We can't allow transportation of nuclear 
weapons without an armed escort.  Would you?"  Their mission is to blow up 
the comet, and they'll do anything to accomplish that.  If their sidearms are 
demanded of them while aboard ship they will comply immediately but 
reluctantly, handing over their visible pistols.  If pressed they will then 
give up their visible knives.  If the concealed weapons are located and 
confiscated then the team will begin quietly noting common gear that can be 
used as weapons in an emergency, such as fire extinguishers, pliers, 
wrenches, and the like.  Each lieutenant has brawling skill 2 while the 
sergeant has brawling skill 3, meaning they will be formidable hand-to-hand 
opponents.  The team will make no attempt to stand guard directly over the 
nuclear devices but rather will stick together at all times, believing they 
have a better chance against any treachery if they work as a unit. 

The approach will take about 20 hours and will be uneventful.  Most free time 
will be spent helping the weapons team learn how to use the ship's vacc suits 
and how to function in a zero gravity environment, which skills they will 
need in order to move the weapons on the comet's surface.  Also all three 
weapons team members will express great interest in learning how the ship 
flies through space, making comments such as "I always wanted to be a pilot, 
but I never thought I'd fly in outer space" and "I hope my world learns to do 
this some day".  All will ask to sit in the pilot's seat and maneuver the 
vessel at least once.  Both officers, if engaged in coversations, will show 
pictures of their families.  If asked about his family the much older 
sergeant will only comment that he is not sentimental.  If pressed he will 
simply insist on concentrating on the mission:  "I want to go over the vacc 
suit again.  Please show me how to deal with an air leak." 

If there is any serious confrontation between the adventurers and the weapons 
team then the weapons team will make absolutely every effort to get the 
mission back on track. 

Arrival 
On arrival at the comet the weapons team will gather on the bridge with the 
adventurers to see what they're up against.  The arrival will be very rough.  
The comet will be surrounded by debris, some of it capable of damaging the 
ship, bubbling up in the turbulent atmosphere boiling off of the comet's 
surface and escaping into space.  Visibility to the surface will be poor.  
Intelligent adventurers, in the face of this obvious hull-breach hazard, will 
go to general quarters, all hands donning vacc suits and depressurizing major 
spaces.  If the adventurers have not yet thought to ask then the weapons team 
will now inform them that they need to find a crack or depression in the 
comet large enough to allow manual insertion of the weapons and deep enough 
that a weapon detonation there will cause the comet to pop apart, thus 
diverting the majority of the comet mass around the inhabited planet in a 
large ring and minimizing the size of the pieces that do hit the planet. 

At some point during the approach the sergeant (or a lieutenant) will either 
locate and retrieve the team's firearms without the adventurers' knowledge or 
he will find some suitable substitute such as a rivet gun or emergency flare 
launcher.  Whatever he finds he will put it in his vacc suit outer pocket. 

Landing 
In a few hours the comet will be too close to xxxx for the nuclear detonation 
to have any effect on its chances of hitting the planet.  A short search will 
immediately discover two likely-looking canyons.  One will be easily and 
safely approached, but may not be deep enough.  The other is definitely deep 
enough, but will be dangerous to approach.  If the ship lands near the first 
canyon it will immediately be obvious that the canyon is not deep enough and 
that the second canyon must be attempted.  There is no time to look for a 
third canyon, but if the adventurers insist on trying then they will have to 
maneuver through debris that might damage their ship.  For each turn spent 
looking roll two six-sized dice and add the pilot's skill; if 8 or higher 
(8+) then the ship's pilot successfully avoids the debris, otherwise the ship 
will be hit by a rock that causes a hull breach.  On approaching the second 
canyon roll 10+, plus pilot skill, to avoid a minor crash landing that will 
require continuous work by all engineers to fix before a takeoff can be 
attempted, and roll 10+, plus pilot skill, to avoid a collision with debris 
that will cause a minor hull breach in a primary living space.  If all ship's 
engineers work to repair the damage, roll 6+, +1 for every engineer working 
on the problem, +1 for every 15 minutes of work that has passed, every 15 
minutes, to repair the hull breach, and roll 15+, plus mechanical skill of 
the senior engineer working on the problem, +1 for every other engineer 
working on the problem, +1 for every 15 minutes of work that has passed, 
every 15 minutes, to repair the crash landing damage.  The engineers can work 
on only one job at a time, and the ship can easily maneuver even with the 
hull breach, so presumably the adventurers will seek to repair the crash 
landing damage first. 

On A Refusal 
If for some reason the adventurers refuse to procede and try to abandon the 
mission then the weapons team will draw any weapons they can, imprison the 
adventurers in a stateroom, and attempt to land the ship near the comet's 
deepest canyon.  They will crash-land, automatically doing double the damage 
specified above.  The adventurers may, of course, attempt to resist this 
hijacking. 

On The Surface 
When the ship lands, whether gracefully or not, the weapons team will 
immediately begin manhandling the nuclear devices out of the ship's cargo 
bay.  Two of them will only be able to move one weapon at a time, while one 
remains in the cargo bay door with weapons left there while others are being 
moved.  All of them, having little zero gravity experience, will have to work 
slowly to make any progress.  They will request assistance from the 
adventurers (one lieutenant will release the adventurers, if they were 
hijacked, and then immediately go back outside), with assurances that the 
adventurers will not have to remain behind to detonate the bombs and that 
they will have time to get away. 

Before (if) any adventurers move out to assist the weapons team a patch of 
high-speed debris will strike the soldiers, puncturing their suits.  The two 
lieutenants will die, while the sergeant will succeed in emergency patching 
his suit but be seriously wounded.  The weapons and the ship will will be 
undamaged.  If no adventurers are moving out to assist the weapons team, or 
if they retreat, the sergeant will again request assistance, stating that he 
himself is unable to continue. 

If the adventurers refuse to help then the sergeant will arm the weapons and 
threaten to detonate them immediately if the adventurers do not complete the 
job.  If the adventurers still refuse to assist, he will do so.  The 
detonation will be successful and save the planet entirely on 10+, else save 
it but with great damage on 8+.  The ship and adventurers will be destroyed.  
The adventurers will be unable, because of terrain and angle, to bring any 
ship's weapons to bear against the sergeant without first lifting off and 
gaining altitude from the comet, which action will be immediately visible to 
him. 

If the adventurers assist involuntarily then the sergeant will supervise them 
with the recovered gun in one hand and the pushbutton actuator in the other.  
The referee will have to adjudicate further action.  If the adventurers 
succeed in placing the weapons to the sergeant's satisfaction he will dismiss 
them, giving them a time limit to get away before he manually detonates the 
nukes.  If the adventurers assist voluntarily the sergeant will be unable to 
help move the nukes but he will be able to supervise weapon placement.   

Time pressure will be very high.  The mission is fast approaching a point 
where it will be too late for the planned detonation to affect the comet's 
impact on the planet.  The sergeant will be fully aware of that time, having 
marked it on his watch, and he will goad the adventurers as necessary to 
hurry.  If that point is reached before the weapons are fully placed then he 
will detonate the weapons immediately regardless of any other consideration.  
If the detonation time is getting very close and it looks as if the weapons 
will not be fully placed he will stop goading the adventurers so as to keep 
them calm and working until the last possible minute.  While moving the 
weapons under this time pressure each adventurer must at some point roll 12+ 
once, plus dexterity stat, to avoid injury due to haste in handling large 
objects in close quarters in zero gravity.  Injuries will be pinched limbs.  
For each injury roll again with 12+ indicating a serious injury leaving the 
adventurer unable to contribute any further effort towards moving the 
weapons. 

If the engineers finish repairs then they may quickly join the effort to move 
the nukes down the canyon. 

The Find 
As the adventurers are moving the weapons to the bottom of the canyon, their 
vacc suit headlamps shining in the darkness, all will notice right away that 
there are strange shapes frozen into the glass- clear ice in both canyon 
walls.  It soon becomes apparent that the shapes are several non-humanoid 
aliens, some artifacts, and what appears to be a ship.  The aliens strongly 
resemble praying manti and are a little smaller than human-size.  They wear 
straps carrying various items of gear, but no clothing.  The ends of their 
"arms" have manipulatory organs with multiple opposing digits.  The ship 
appears to be about two hundred tons or so.  The tail section is not in view, 
and no guess as to the propulsion system can be made.  The artifacts are 
scattered about in the ice near the aliens and near the surface. 

Recovery 
After the sergeant recovers from his own amazement he will continue to insist 
on weapon placement.  When this is finished he will dismiss the adventurers 
while he remains behind to initiate the detonation.  If the adventurers have 
fully cooperated with the supreme leader and the weapons team from the very 
beginning and have otherwise been efficient then they will have enough time 
to attempt to recover artifacts from out of the ice, should they choose to 
try.  They will be able to reach up to two items per adventurer present, for 
up to a total of nine items, before time pressure forces them to abandon 
further excavation and to head for the surface to escape the planned 
detonation.  If they must choose between objects then the adventurers can 
from select the following:  three iridium- colored hollow tubes 1" diameter 
6" long, two palm-sized saucer-shaped metal disks ringed with buttons, two 
plain silver balls 2" in diameter, about half of an alien's head, and one 
entire alien arm.  If the players ask if they can take pictures then remind 
them that their vacc suits incorporate videocams and that they can fully 
record, in high definition digital format, all that they see as they work. 

Escape 
As the adventurers return to their ship any repair crew should have had six 
chances to repair the ship should they have needed to do so.  If the ship is 
not yet repaired and the adventurers have been efficient in their use of time 
then they should have two more chances to repair the damage and resume flight 
without having to worry about blast from the nukes.  If a final roll is 
necessary (and successful) before flight is possible then the adventurers 
will escape but their vessel will likely take serious damage from fragments 
of the blasted comet (repeat the damage and repair possibilities listed 
earlier in Landing).  If damaged, the ship must be repaired in two hours or 
it will burn up in the planet's atmosphere.  If the vessel is still on the 
surface of the comet when detonation takes place then the ship will 
automatically take all damage listed in Landing (no roll) and again must be 
repaired in two hours or burn up in the planet's atmosphere.  In addition to 
this, each crew member must roll less than or equal to both his strength stat 
and dexterity stat or be injured sufficiently to be unable to participate in 
any repair effort. 

The Artifacts 

Iridium Tubes 
Saucers 
Silver Balls 
Manti Body Parts 

Aftermath 
If the adventure team acted in a timely manner and did not engage in 
excessive delays then the planet will suffer only minor damage from pieces of 
the destroyed comet, and the adventure team will be paid to the limit 
previously specified.  If, however, the adventure team failed to perform 
expeditiously then upon their return they will find that large pieces of the 
comet have impacted the planet.  Overall damage to the planet's biosphere and 
human population will be moderate and temporary.  Damage to the government, 
however, will be fatal -- the capitol city, governing center, and starport 
will have been destroyed by a nearby strike.  All who knew of the adventure 
team's involvement in trying to stop the comet, including the supreme leader 
and senior military officers, as well as all who knew of any payment 
arrangements made with the adventurers, will have been killed in the impact.  
If they press their case and an investigation is launched they will have 
little evidence of their roll in this matter.  Astronomers will report that 
they did in fact notify the government of the impending collision, but they 
will have no knowledge of what action the supreme leader took regarding this 
information.  Surviving witnesses may report that an off-world ship did 
arrive recently at the starport near the capitol, and then leave shortly 
before the comet fragments impacted, but none of them will have any idea who 
it was or where this ship went after departing.  The nuclear scientists will 
say they received valid orders to hastily assemble the devices and turn them 
over to the military weapons team, but they have no idea where the weapons 
went after that.  If the adventurers made video records of their activities 
then the remaining governmental organs may be persuaded that the adventurers 
did in fact contribute to the partial saving of xxxx -- provided, of course, 
that these records show the adventurers cooperating with the weapons team and 
not needing to be coerced into taking action. 

If the adventurers failed to deliver the weapons at all then the planet xxxx 
will be severely traumatized by the comet's full impact, with tremendous 
damage to the population and the biosphere.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:11:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:11:56 2002
Subject: [TML] marking
Message-ID: <a1.2b5a23c4.2a7f3862@aol.com>

Charles (CHam628781@aol.com) writes:

>Do male Aslan mark their territory?
>

Yes, but with a fence, axe, or plasma gun...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:19:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:19:04 2002
Subject: [TML] adventure
Message-ID: <memo.604253@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <1ac.6380721.2a7f37b7@aol.com>
Nice :-)

Keep it up.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <006801c23c1f$2c8101a0$195d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <B9732F75.68182%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/4/02 6:10 PM, Alan Bradley at abradley1@bigpond.com wrote:

>=20
> I wouldn't underestimate the frequency of PTSD among WWI and WWII vets. I=
've
> spent quite a bit of time talking to widows of WWII vets, and quite a lot=
 of
> them have horror stories of how their husbands would sometimes lose the
> plot.
>=20
> The POWs seem to have had the most problems, of course. This seems to be
> true even when they were held by the Germans and Italians, rather than by
> the Japanese.
>=20
> As for WWI, well, let's just say that Australia started having a bit of a
> drug problem after 1918.

True.  There was battle fatigue and shell shock.  Many of these cases laste=
d
well beyond the war.  Actor Charles Durning, who served as an Army Ranger
and participated in both the D-Day landings and the battle of the bulged ha=
s
said that he continues to have nightmares about his military service to thi=
s
day.  There are, of course, numerous examples from both world wars and Kore=
a
of what we would now call PTSD.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:24:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:24:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Yes PM
In-Reply-To: <B96B1B3E.66A00%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20804.182449.3P9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 7/29/02 4:11 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>
>> 
>> Or let it burn up in a planetary atmosphere (though getting away with
>> that requires a low tech planet without much in the way of orbital
>> survielance.
>
> How big a signature would a body have?  Just another meterorite?

One that parted company with a ship entering or leaving orbit.

At the very least, you'd get a fine for trash dumping if it was
noticed. 

In low orbit *we* track stuff down to marble size. 

Since "ballistic entry" of "stealthed" packages would be a great way to
smuggle relatively rugged items, ships would get a lot of monitoring on
approach to any planet that cares about smuggling.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:25:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:25:33 2002
Subject: UFO TV Series [was: Re: [TML] Sub-FTL Travel in MT]
In-Reply-To: <B96B2C17.66A13%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20804.182951.3v1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 7/29/02 4:16 PM, George A. Boyett at gboyett@msn.com wrote:
>
>> I'm 36 and I remember that series.
>
> I'm 39. 
>> 
>> One thing I can't remember is the name of the organization that fought
>> the aliens.
>
> SHADO

Supreme
Headquarters
Alien
Defence
Organization

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:26:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:26:47 2002
Subject: [TML] getting rid of a body (was Re: Yes PM)
In-Reply-To: <3D45F676.C97C7157@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20804.190552.6d6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>
>> At 05:04 PM 7/29/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>>
>> >A good high-fire kiln, for firing porcelain, e.g., gets up to about
>> >3,000F if I recall correctly.  That shouldn't leave anything of a
>> >body but ash.  I think the DNA will be completely unrecoverable --
>> >but I hope that those of you who know will speak up (both sides in my
>> >current campaign might want to know).  My art school friends and I
>> >used to think that that was probably the best way to get rid of a
>> >body at TL 7.
>>
>
> If your planet is so equiped, i would think a volcano would be a great
> low-tech body disposal resource.

As long as it's a Kileaua(sp) type that has lots of nice *fluid* lava.
The sort we have on the West Coast are pretty much useless for that
sort of thing.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:27:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:27:59 2002
Subject: [TML] getting rid of a body (was Re: Yes PM)
In-Reply-To: <20020730000444.42371.qmail@web20415.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20804.185754.8D0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Yes PM
>>Both the wood chipper and pig methods have been used in cases where 
>>the forensics people *were* able to recover enough evidence to ID
> the
>>remains as human and get a DNA ID.
>
> [deletion]
>
>>For Traveller, it's going to be hard to beat this:
>
> [deletion]
>
>>Using pure oxygen, the body would likely burn weel. And hot. But
> this
>>is apt to be impractical. If you've got HEPlaR, then you can just
>>vaporize the body. 
>>
>>Or you could just dump it out the lock in jump. 
>>
>>Or let it burn up in a planetary atmosphere (though getting away
> with
>>that requires a low tech planet without much in the way of orbital
>>survielance.
>
> A good high-fire kiln, for firing porcelain, e.g., gets up to about
> 3,000F if I recall correctly.  That shouldn't leave anything of a
> body but ash.  I think the DNA will be completely unrecoverable --
> but I hope that those of you who know will speak up (both sides in my
> current campaign might want to know).  My art school friends and I
> used to think that that was probably the best way to get rid of a
> body at TL 7.  

Next time you have access to one, toss in a pound of meat. Including
fresh bone. 

It'll take a long time and produce a *lot* of smoke. And what I'm told
is a *very* distinct odor. 

As well as depositing soot and other things all over the place.

And teeth, being damn near porcelian already, will take a long time to
calcine. The ends of the thigh bones are pretty durable as well.

> Now at Traveller tech levels, you can make a body disappear
> completely by dumping it into a star or into jump space.  Even
> putting it into a cometary orbit should make it impossible to find
> without specific information.  I should think that a body dropped
> into a gas giant's atmosphere would be impossible to find, too.

Putting it into a cometary orbit requires being unobserved. 

> All of the foregoing options assume access to a starship or at least
> a small craft.  What about the lower-echelon wise guy, who only has a
> grav speeder?  How about someplace where they melt metal?

They'll be more than a little upset at all the impurities in the melt. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] getting rid of a body (was Re: Yes PM)
In-Reply-To: <p05111710b96c7691308f@[192.168.0.2]>
Message-ID: <20804.190929.3R3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 5:04 PM -0700 7/29/02, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>
>>Now at Traveller tech levels, you can make a body disappear
>>completely by dumping it into a star or into jump space.  Even
>>putting it into a cometary orbit should make it impossible to find
>>without specific information.  I should think that a body dropped
>>into a gas giant's atmosphere would be impossible to find, too.
>
>         I think the trick with dumping a body into a star or large 
> planet is making sure you have the oribital mechanics right so it 
> actually goes into the target body and not into orbit.  OTOH, if 
> you're dealing with dumping a body in space, maybe it's enough to 
> just give the body enough velocity out your airlock in an empty 
> direction.  Chances are, it'll never be found anyway.

There are a *lot* of folks in jail after putting bodies in places where
the chances were that said bodies would never be found.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:34:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:34:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Warghame ----> Nightmare?
Message-ID: <194.af51b03.2a7f3c97@aol.com>

>But seriously, the comm delay and limited intelligence turned a wargame into
>a nightmare.

Commo delays and limited intelligence are half the fun of a decent wargame. I 
love large, multiplayer exercises -- the umpires don't have to insert the 
"fog of war" because the players provide it themselves!

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:38:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:38:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020804232303.7408.33320.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <006701c23c1f$2baff600$195d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <033401c23c28$9dc0c590$7400a8c0@matt>

Alan Bradley wrote:
>> From: Mark Urbin
>> At 08:19 AM 8/5/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>>> richard honeycutt wrote:
>>>>       How many dinky airless rockballs with large populations do
>>>> the world generation rules permit?
>>> What does that matter?  They obviously don't need trade for
>>> survival. It's not like they'll starve if you isolate them.
>>
>> On what do you base that on?
>
> I believe he was being sarcastic.
>
> Mind you, I suspect many rockballs would have extensive greenhouses.
> They wouldn't necessarily live on imports and Soylent Green.
>
> At least, if _I_ was planning a rockball colony, they would have
> extensive greenhouses.

And I dare say they did...

Unfortunately in the TNE setting Virus comes along and takes over, opening
airlocks etc or otherwise playing with the lifesupport. Greenhouses exposed
to vacuum, or that have pure oxygen passed into them and a spark ignited
don't tend to be overly productive... Or it plays grav pong along the access
corridors to the greenhouses... lovely food that you can't get to...

etc

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:43:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:43:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <006701c23c1f$2baff600$195d8690@computer>
References: <20020804232303.7408.33320.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804223247.0237e008@192.168.0.1>

At 11:01 AM 8/5/2002 +1000, Alan Bradley wrote:
> > From: Mark Urbin
> > At 08:19 AM 8/5/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
> > >richard honeycutt wrote:
> > > >       How many dinky airless rockballs with large populations do the
> > > > world generation rules permit?
> > >What does that matter?  They obviously don't need trade for survival.
> > >It's not like they'll starve if you isolate them.
> > On what do you base that on?
>I believe he was being sarcastic.

I don't think he was.

>Mind you, I suspect many rockballs would have extensive greenhouses. They
>wouldn't necessarily live on imports and Soylent Green.
>At least, if _I_ was planning a rockball colony, they would have extensive
>greenhouses.

So would I.  Now, your rockball is on a trade route.  A jump away is a nice 
size 7 planet with a standard atmosphere, and plenty of water.
They have amber fields of grain, huge herds of groats, and a wide variety 
of various fresh foods.
They don't like strip mining, you like reasonably fresh beef...
Keep this trade cycle up for a few hundred years.

It will be the wackos waiting for the world to end who demand that 100% of 
all needed foodstuffs be grown locally.
Everybody sane knows that tons of fresh food arrive every week...
Ya, that algae is good for you, but it tastes funny and turns everything green!

The supply ships stop coming...and you're only producing enough food 
locally to feed 50-60% of the population.
Even if the local leaders have the will to implement rationing, are they 
able to enforce it?


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"This has the characteristic look and feel of a complete fiasco."
                 http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:45:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:45:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Landgrab Vilis
Message-ID: <3D4DE550.CE9DD052@mail.cswnet.com>

Alright! Welcome to the neighborhood. I've been pushing the border
worlds hard hoping people would snag'em. About Garda-Vilis: I seem to
think someone grabed it somewhere along the way, but the landgrab
website does'nt show it. I'd snag'em both immediatly and see if anyone
objects. It wouldnt hurt to try anyway [shrug].

Some of your Imperial neighbors [within 6 parsecs]:
Ficant/Vilis        A. M-Vallance
Saurus/Vilis        Iain Williams
Tavonni/Vilis       David Jaques-Watson
Zeta 2/Vilis        Jason Barnabas
and of course, me:
Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:47:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:47:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: meduim navies
Message-ID: <OFAB92C96B.2F360646-ONCA256C0C.000E60F9@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Dan wrote:
>I seperated it
>because I deemed that income coming from Shionthy would be in the form
>of collected CT-Shards, which would not go to local Imperial forces but
>rather get sent off to an appropriate depot and/or research station.

No, no, no, _Marc_ is receiving income from sending out _his_ collected CT 
shards - Oh! I see what you meant.

;-)  ;-)

(There's that razor-sharp wit again - must be Monday!)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] getting rid of a body (was Re: Yes PM)
Message-ID: <200208050251.MBX00823@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson says
<snip the drawbacks of the various ways>
I still think my method of lime, sulfur, and water works 
rather well - I remember the demonstration we received with a 
pig carcass - the bones and teeth were gone after a week 
underground with the mixture.

If you're lucky, and you work near a steel mill, there are 
tanks where they recycle the sulfuric acid - they keep it at 
about 18 M.  Drop someone in that (watch the splash) and 
there won't be anything left.  The recycling process will 
take care of the impurities.

In the various Traveller campaigns I played in, the 
characters invariably ended up with some sort of Italian 
firign squad situation aboard ship.  Provided that the pilot, 
navigator, and engineer weren't greased in this display of un-
intelligence, the resulting bodies (and often, the protesting 
wounded) were blown out of the airlock in jump space.  
Sometimes, people killed aboard ship while in port were 
stuffed into the freezer or low berth until they could be 
disposed of.

One crew had this happen with such regularity that a low 
berth was permanently rigged to show low level life signs, in 
case a customs official was suspicious about the person 
inside.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 21:02:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 20:02:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Landgrab Vilis
In-Reply-To: <3D4DE550.CE9DD052@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804225914.02142128@192.168.0.1>

If John doesn't mind, I could do Garda-Vilis.
Filling in details around his outlines or vice-versa.

At 09:39 PM 8/4/2002 -0500, Roseberry wrote:
>Alright! Welcome to the neighborhood. I've been pushing the border
>worlds hard hoping people would snag'em. About Garda-Vilis: I seem to
>think someone grabed it somewhere along the way, but the landgrab
>website does'nt show it. I'd snag'em both immediatly and see if anyone
>objects. It wouldnt hurt to try anyway [shrug].
>
>Some of your Imperial neighbors [within 6 parsecs]:
>Ficant/Vilis        A. M-Vallance
>Saurus/Vilis        Iain Williams
>Tavonni/Vilis       David Jaques-Watson
>Zeta 2/Vilis        Jason Barnabas
>and of course, me:
>Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 21:04:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 20:04:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
Message-ID: <138.1260f901.2a7f16a9@cs.com>

--part1_138.1260f901.2a7f16a9_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 8/4/02 12:11:08 AM Central Daylight Time, 
res053z0@gten.net writes:


> (Doug says, 'Who is Richard Tucholka?' )
> 
> Stalking the Night Fantastic, Fringeworthy, FTL 2448
> 
> 

Speaking of which, does anyone know where I might find a good-condition copy 
of FTL:2448? I've looked all over the place, both online and in RL and I've 
never been able to find anything. I've got everything else TriTac's put out 
and I'm wanting to complete my collection.

Simon Jester
Damage169@cs.com

--part1_138.1260f901.2a7f16a9_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 8/4/02 12:11:08 AM Central Daylight Time, res053z0@gten.net writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">(Doug says, 'Who is Richard Tucholka?' )
<BR>
<BR>Stalking the Night Fantastic, Fringeworthy, FTL 2448
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>Speaking of which, does anyone know where I might find a good-condition copy of FTL:2448? I've looked all over the place, both online and in RL and I've never been able to find anything. I've got everything else TriTac's put out and I'm wanting to complete my collection.
<BR>
<BR>Simon Jester
<BR>Damage169@cs.com</FONT></HTML>

--part1_138.1260f901.2a7f16a9_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 21:05:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 20:05:50 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
Message-ID: <OF835496FC.46D80DAC-ONCA256C0C.000EC80C@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Robert spammed us with:
>"Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com> writes:
> 
>> So does SPAM survive the Rule of Man, the Long Night and into the
>> Third Imperium?
>
>It no longer is manufactures, but reserves of SPAM still exist.  The
>stuff lasts forever, you know...

I have it on good authority that the various shelters constructed by the 
Octagon Society were made out of old Spam tins - y'know, emergency 
supplies for stranded travellers, get it?

Why do you think those guys were so pleased to find that Ancients base on 
Fulacin - for the food! To say nothing of explaining that execrable 
10-volume poem - the writer had gone mad from eating too much of the same 
thing all the time!! And don't even get me started on the fact that, the 
instant someone invented Spam, Grandfather decided that humans were even 
dumber than worms and gave up on them as useful servants!!! Not to mention 
cutting himself off from the rest of the Universe!!!!

"IT'S ALL TRUE, I TELL YOU! HE TOLD ME SO LAST TIME I VISITED HIS POCKET 
DIMENSIO-" <whack! jab! bind!> "mmph, mmph!" <struggle>

"...and now, back to your regular scheduled programming (nothing to see 
here, move along)..."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 21:40:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sun Aug  4 20:40:25 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020805081803.B24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
 <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]>
 <20020805081803.B24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <p04330100b973a30616e9@[198.123.22.175]>

At 8:18 AM +1000 8/5/02, Timothy Little wrote:
>David P. Summers wrote:
>>  Missiles are very damaging.  However, they also can be intercepted.
>>  The utility of missiles depends on how many missiles you have vs how
>>  much point defense you foe has.
>
>Yes, I'd noticed that too.  In particular, the existing missiles and
>launchers can be greatly upgraded to achieve much better results
>against point defense for rather little cost.  However, given other
>comments it looks like doing so would take it even further away from
>previous versions of Traveller. :-/

I'm not sure about missles, but in fact playtest versions of 
starships had "point defense lasers" (less damage, higher rof).
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 21:55:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Sun Aug  4 20:55:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat
References: <c5.26be7ee0.2a7caa89@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4DF711.5C3C76CD@pobox.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>  >In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships which have an armor
>  >factor of 13 or less.
>
> With a fusion gun?  I'm sorry, you must be using rules I'm not familiar with.
>  I was thinking of High Guard.
> _______________________________________________

In sufficient numbers they can _mission-kill_ (i.e. render combat-ineffective)
ships which have armor 13 or less, according to HG2.

A code-5 fusion gun will hit a agility-6 ship of greater than 20kdton with a roll
of 10 on 2d6.  It penetrates code-9 sand on a 8.

Against a ship with Armor-13, one in 36 fusion gun hits will do a Weapon -1 on
the Surface Explosion table.  Enough of these, and the target vessel will have no
weapons, which will render it unable to perform its mission, hence the term
mission-kill.  The ship can still maneuver and escape.

Against Armor-11, fuel hits are possible, and the target can be disabled by loss
of fuel.

In both cases, many hits are required, but that's why it says "in sufficient
numbers".

WKH


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 21:56:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Sun Aug  4 20:56:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat
References: <c5.26be7ee0.2a7caa89@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4DF72F.D22EE3FC@pobox.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>  >In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships which have an armor
>  >factor of 13 or less.
>
> With a fusion gun?  I'm sorry, you must be using rules I'm not familiar with.
>  I was thinking of High Guard.
> _______________________________________________

In sufficient numbers they can _mission-kill_ (i.e. render combat-ineffective)
ships which have armor 13 or less, according to HG2.

A code-5 fusion gun will hit a agility-6 ship of greater than 20kdton with a roll
of 10 on 2d6.  It penetrates code-9 sand on a 8.

Against a ship with Armor-13, one in 36 fusion gun hits will do a Weapon -1 on
the Surface Explosion table.  Enough of these, and the target vessel will have no
weapons, which will render it unable to perform its mission, hence the term
mission-kill.  The ship can still maneuver and escape.

Against Armor-11, fuel hits are possible, and the target can be disabled by loss
of fuel.

In both cases, many hits are required, but that's why it says "in sufficient
numbers".

WKH


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 22:00:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Sun Aug  4 21:00:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat HULL THICKNESS LIMITATION
References: <190.ad335f8.2a7ca953@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4DF7E3.D8D36B56@pobox.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>  >HULL
>  >185.000 tons standard, 2,590.000 cubic meters, Planetoid Configuration
>
> In a Planetoid Configuration of this size the maximum thickness of the outer
> hull is 0.6 meters and likely much less.  If this ship were 185,000 tons, the
> maximum outer thickness of the outer hull would be 6.0 meters.  Yet in both
> cases they are considered to be naturally armor 3.  I think there should be a
> lower limit on allowable tonnages for Planetoid and Buffered Planetoid ships.

Perhaps this could be a house rule.  I am not aware of such a rule in HG2.

WKH


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 22:10:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 21:10:47 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020805075953.A24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
 <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <20020805075953.A24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3436.64.8.3.28.1028520584.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

> Oh.  Here was I thinking that the missiles were suboptimal and could
> have been designed better and cheaper.  For example, it is trivial to
> design a missile turret that can launch and control 20 missiles per
> combat turn, each costing less than half as much with better
> acceleration and damage.

There is always the ability to design bigger and faster missiles using
GURPS VEHICLES and the guidelines presented with TRAVELLER itself.  A
friend of mine created an inertial guided missile that removes the
explosive warhead from the missile and turned it into a kinetic kill
device.  It all depends on the choices made by the game designer as well
as the GM.  Each change you make to *your* traveller universe takes it a
little further away from the "official" traveller universe as presented in
GURPS TRAVELLER (which doesn't bother me one bit!!!)


>>  I personally do not use the GURPS STARSHIP combat rules as
>>  presented,
>
> Do you use something close, or a drastic re-write?  (Or not at all?)

What I use is based essentially on GURPS TRAVELLER and MAYDAY vector
rules.  Missiles in my games end up being really NASTY!  In my games,
fighters can move to within passive sensor range of their enemy, send
information back to a missile frigate that is outside of sensor range of
an enemy target.  The missile frigate then starts a high speed run against
the intended target and launches its missiles outside of sensor range of
an enemy ship.  Since the missiles are now separated from the ship which
has not been seen on enemy sensor screens as yet, they coast in undetected
until it is FAR too late.  In my games?  It is theoretically possible for
a missile to slam into a ship hull at speeds in excess of 90 hexes per
turn...  Do the math and see how much damage a single missile moving at 90
hexes per turn does ;)


>> nor am I pleased with rendition of the Meson weapons in the GURPS
>> TRAVELLER rule set.
>
> They do look a little icky to me too.  What bothers you most?


What bothers me most is that Meson Screens in High Guard usually had a
GOOD chance of stopping the damage *entirely*.  In GURPS TRAVELLER, Meson
screens *always* let damage through.  In HIGH GUARD, the odds of securing
a meson hit to begin with against an unscreened target is rather High
(statistically speaking).  In GURPS, the way to have a highter potential
for hitting, you increase the odds of hitting by putting out more
firepower.  In my opinion, the best way to have handled Meson weaponry
would have been to lower their effective damage, but increase its rate of
fire.  Why?

Rememember in High Guard, the higher your "letter" value of weapon versus
the letter value of the hull size - you got 1 crit hit?  Same "effect"
could be secured in a GURPS TRAVELLER game by using the higher rate of
fire aspect.  The better you roll to hit, the more hits you secure against
your target.  Thus, for me, the best way to build GURPS TRAVELLER meson
weapons is to have them do less damage, but have a higher rate of fire -
increasing their accuracy value.  A roll made by say, +6, means the ship
took what, 3 hits?  And if the ship doesn't have meson screens, three hits
are NASTY.


Oh well.  The best thing about GURPS TRAVELLER and GURPS VEHICLES - is you
can create *any* technological innovations you want for your campaign. 
You can build internally consistant weapon systems you can think of that
are presented within both TRAVELLER and GURPS VEHICLES.  You want fire and
forget Missiles for your Traveller Universe?  You can build them.  YOu
want robotic ships?  GURPS VEHICLES has rules for it.  You want to know
what the results are of a 50 lb rock tossed via a Trebuchet against a Far
Trader's hull?  GURPS VEHICLES has rules for it.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 22:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 21:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020805081803.B24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
 <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]>
 <20020805081803.B24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3688.64.8.3.28.1028521212.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

> It seems that would be a good idea if your ship needs to spend a long
> time away from resupply, but not good for actual battle capability.
> Using the full Vehicles rules, I was unable to design a craft that
> could mount enough point defense weapons to last more than a round or
> two.
>
> The other problem I noted is the short range of direct-fire weapons.
> None of the presented beams could touch anything beyond 30 hexes.
> Missiles (even the wimpy predesigned ones) can hit from 50 or so
> hexes.

What you do is build lasers whose only purpose of existance is to damage
missiles.  Build those lasers so that you have a high rate of fire.  Keep
in mind that missiles are fired upon during the point defense phase...




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 22:24:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 21:24:04 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805002239.02142128@mail.charter.net>

What is the TL of  the Imperium & the Terran Confederation in the Year 1000 
setting of T20?



-----------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Whether you're Bill Clinton or the head of a large
corporation like Enron, it seems the best defense
in any legal matter is to act like you just arrived
on the planet." -- Spencer F. Katt
-----------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 22:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Sun Aug  4 21:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net><m3ofclg93m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org><004301c23a04$8cdeff60$0112bd50@martinjd><m3eldhkv8o.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org><00aa01c23a5c$4f293ca0$5d0bbd50@martinjd> <m3bs8lj5c2.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> <012601c23a78$2c1d4f00$5d0bbd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3D4E00D2.3BF3156C@pobox.com>

MJ Dougherty wrote:

> >
> > Well, if you can damp inertia and can create artificial gravity, I'm
> > pretty certain that you can fake high-g effects (or rather, create
> > them).  I don't think that the physics would necessarily be all that
> > difficult; trivial, probably, for a society which has those things.
> >
>
> If you can do these things, then simulator problems I've outlined are
> greatly diminished (most of them). I don't imagine this sort of thing is
> available for $35 in a playstation game, though.

Remember the movie "The Last Starfighter", where the video game was actually
a simulation?

I could see the IN covertly running a string of "reality arcades", where
kids can come and play the latest simulator games against each other.  The
best 'players' win a visit from an IN recruiter.

WKH


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 22:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Sun Aug  4 21:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net><m3ofclg93m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org><004301c23a04$8cdeff60$0112bd50@martinjd><m3eldhkv8o.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org><00aa01c23a5c$4f293ca0$5d0bbd50@martinjd> <m3bs8lj5c2.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> <012601c23a78$2c1d4f00$5d0bbd50@martinjd> <3D4E00D2.3BF3156C@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <00ed01c23c3b$7d2af720$9307b286@Shane>

Bill Hopper wrote:
> Remember the movie "The Last Starfighter", where the video game was
actually
> a simulation?
>
> I could see the IN covertly running a string of "reality arcades", where
> kids can come and play the latest simulator games against each other.  The
> best 'players' win a visit from an IN recruiter.

Though for optimum testing conditions, parts of the video game arcade should
periodically explode, catch fire and/or depressurize during the games.
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- IN Recyc System Maintenance Sim v3.0 - So real you can
smell it.
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 23:40:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 22:40:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Astronomy Boffin Question
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEKAIKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

How big can a rocky asteroid be and still be irregular?

_______________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 02:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 01:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Warghame ----> Nightmare?
Message-ID: <memo.609810@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <194.af51b03.2a7f3c97@aol.com>
> >But seriously, the comm delay and limited intelligence turned a 
> wargame into
> >a nightmare.
> 
> Commo delays and limited intelligence are half the fun of a decent 
> wargame. I love large, multiplayer exercises -- the umpires don't have 
> to insert the "fog of war" because the players provide it themselves!

It's the only kind of wargame I enjoy...

I remember a very good one with 4 teams, each in separate rooms with maps 
& radios, plus an umpire team. 2 teams on each side... but the radios were 
on a common frequency! We were allowed to use runners as well, but only to 
the umpires, not to the other team on our side (we could send them written 
messages, but via the umpires which meant they were often garbled or not 
delivered). 

Then one of us realised that the other team on our side was in the room 
next door... so we hung out the window and passed messages that way :-)

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 03:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 02:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat
Message-ID: <d1.1c5d7500.2a7f99af@aol.com>

 >>  >In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships which have an armor
 >>  >factor of 13 or less.
 >>
 >> With a fusion gun?  I'm sorry, you must be using rules I'm not familiar 
with.
 >>  I was thinking of High Guard.
 >> _______________________________________________
 >
 >In sufficient numbers they can _mission-kill_ (i.e. render 
combat-ineffective)
 >ships which have armor 13 or less, according to HG2.
 >
 >A code-5 fusion gun will hit a agility-6 ship of greater than 20kdton with 
a roll
 >of 10 on 2d6.  It penetrates code-9 sand on a 8.
 >
 >Against a ship with Armor-13, one in 36 fusion gun hits will do a Weapon -1 
on
 >the Surface Explosion table.  Enough of these, and the target vessel will 
have no
 >weapons, which will render it unable to perform its mission, hence the term
 >mission-kill.  The ship can still maneuver and escape.

My tables say a factor 5 fusion gun will hit a 20kton AG6 ship on a roll of 
(6 base + 6 agility - 1 size = ) 11+.  Yeah, I see your point, though I would 
take repairs into account.  But I think a capital ship has armor 15.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 03:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 02:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804192145.024cac00@192.168.0.1>
References: <02080313391901.00601@linux> <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020804192145.024cac00@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020805191412.A25687@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> At 08:19 AM 8/5/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
> >What does that matter?  They obviously don't need trade for survival.
> >It's not like they'll starve if you isolate them.
> 
> On what do you base that on?

The fact that high-pop worlds (including airless rockballs) have very
little trade compared to their population.  If they relied on external
trade for food they would all have starved to death long ago.

Look at Kwai Ching, for example (as one you should be familiar with :)
Its per-capita imports from all the other systems in the subsector
combined are about 0.8 Cr/week.  Whatever the population is eating
every day, it isn't imported food.  Kwai Ching actually has
significantly more than the median per-capita trade for high-pop
vacuum worlds.

Obviously most of them (probably all) have local means of production.
They may import some luxury foods (who doesn't?), but certainly not
staples.  This is not surprising -- the level of technology required
to grow food plants and animals is not exactly excessive or costly,
and the side-benefits include the ability to recycle your organic
wastes, air and water.  That's much better than importing food at a
large markup.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 03:30:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 02:30:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Junk in space
In-Reply-To: <20804.181110.0M6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020730104900.B2820@freeman.little-possums.net> <20804.181110.0M6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020805192941.B25687@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Somehow, I doubt that the speed of sound in starship hull material is
> 20 km/sec!

I used 1 MJ as a *maximum* energy, for a 30-gram object travelling at
10 km/s.  If you want to drop the mass to 5 grams, drop the energy to
250 kJ.

And yes, I expect the speed of sound in starship hull material to be
no less than 20 km/s.

Hull armour is known to be both extremely rigid *and* requires a lot
of energy to penetrate.  Note that some existing materials already
exceed 15 km/s, and materials in the Far Future are likely to be even
more so.  I would not rule out 40+ km/s for lightweight TL12 armour.


> Are you going to dodge? Or try to blow it up?

Either would be easy.  Let the ship's captain decide.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 03:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 02:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <006701c23c1f$2baff600$195d8690@computer>
References: <20020804232303.7408.33320.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <006701c23c1f$2baff600$195d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <20020805193038.C25687@freeman.little-possums.net>

Alan Bradley wrote:
> I believe he was being sarcastic.

No, quite serious.


> At least, if _I_ was planning a rockball colony, they would have
> extensive greenhouses.

Given trade figures in Traveller, they do.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 03:42:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Mon Aug  5 02:42:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <181.c196c70.2a7ed4f5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPAEBKEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

It is canon, Traveller has whopping big fleet carriers (not to mention the
Tigress class BBs) which carry huge number of fighters.

The imperium obviously believes they have a need for large numbers of
fighters. AFAIK carrier squadrons are equated with cruiser squadrons (see
Fighting Ships) and presumably carry out some of the same missions. Commerce
raiding is possible but would you need a fleet carrier for that?

So given that carrier squadrons exist if they are totally useless against
other cruiser squadrons what would they be used for. I submit it could also
mean that point defence systems are not as good as the navy would have us
believe.

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 04:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Freelance Traveller)
Date: Mon Aug  5 03:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] [www] 5 Aug 2002 - Freelance Traveller NOT Updated :(
Message-ID: <o7jsku0jgg9j6krr0eajhh6hu0q40eqjoc@4ax.com>

Due to an unexpected confluence of factors, mostly involving the effect of
weather on human activities (we lost power Friday evening when a tree took
down some wires down the block during the storm, and I spent most of
Saturday recovering from a fifteen-hour outage), I haven't been able to get
an update together for this week.  However, if I can survive this week at
work, and if we don't get another frog-drowner of a storm that kills power,
I'll post an update this coming weekend, and, if I'm lucky, a *really*
*massive* update a week later - I have the intervening week as vacation!

Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture 
Enterprises, 1977-2000.  Use of the trademark in 
this notice and in the referenced materials is not 
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.freelancetraveller.com
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
editor@freelancetraveller.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 04:21:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 03:21:08 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller - more
In-Reply-To: <186.b850971.2a77a260@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20805.002325.7j9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>  >The W-71 
>  >thermonuclear device had a yield of 5 megatons.  I feel it's 
>  >fair to put the typical Traveller missile in this yield range.
>
> no, it's not.  that's huge.  as I understand it the united states doesn't 
> even have weapons that large in its inventory anymore -- they're all in the 
> 10 to 100 kton range.
>
> consider a ship with 10 missile bays.  at 30 missiles per salvo, 100 salvos 
> per bay, 10 bays, that's 30,000 weapons.  I think that that's more than the 
> entire present world inventory, on one dinky ship.  that's a lot of 
> fissionable material, and it all has a shelf-life, and each warhead has to 
> fit onto a relatively small missile.  five megs is too much.

Actually, given some of the other tech, the weapons could be fusion
warheads that don't *need* a fission trigger.

>>As for nuclear weapons effects in space, the Project Orion 
>>ship was using fairly "small" yields at a distance of several 
>>hundred meters from the pusher plate, that was high strength 
>>steel with another material for a coating.  Too close, and 
>>even the small bomb would vaporize the pusher plate.
>
> well then it sounds like nuclear weapons are all anyone would need or want, 
> because no ship could withstand them.  unless, of course, as someone said 
> elsewhere in this packet, "by tech 12 or 13 they darn well ought to have 
> solved that problem".

The problem is that given anti-missile lasers, you aren't going to get
a nuke that *close*.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 04:23:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 03:23:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804223247.0237e008@192.168.0.1>
References: <20020804232303.7408.33320.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <006701c23c1f$2baff600$195d8690@computer> <5.1.0.14.0.20020804223247.0237e008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020805202103.D25687@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> The supply ships stop coming...and you're only producing enough food
> locally to feed 50-60% of the population.

If you can find a high-pop world that has enough trade to feed just a
tenth of its population, even if it was importing nothing but food, I
will be surprised.

Most of them don't import enough to account for even 2% of their food
requirements, still assuming that they import nothing but food.

A 40-50% local shortfall is unsupportable by a factor of 30 or so.  It
is much more likely that most of them are producing amply enough to
feed their population.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 04:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Aug  5 03:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805002239.02142128@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <005401c23c6c$91137060$be09bd50@martinjd>

> What is the TL of  the Imperium & the Terran Confederation in the Year
1000
> setting of T20?

The Impeirum is TL 14 mostly, with Tl 15 just creeping in over the last few
years.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 04:32:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Aug  5 03:32:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Warghame ----> Nightmare?
References: <194.af51b03.2a7f3c97@aol.com>
Message-ID: <007601c23c6c$bec65a40$be09bd50@martinjd>

> >But seriously, the comm delay and limited intelligence turned a wargame
into
> >a nightmare.
>
> Commo delays and limited intelligence are half the fun of a decent
wargame. I
> love large, multiplayer exercises -- the umpires don't have to insert the
> "fog of war" because the players provide it themselves!
>

OUrs certainly did. This Nightmare was the best fun wargame I've ever
played, BTW.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 04:33:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Aug  5 03:33:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020804173620.8351.57196.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <006901c23c1f$2dd85440$195d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <008901c23c6c$e2004c00$be09bd50@martinjd>

>
> Hmm. I've always wanted to run an Arbellatra vs Gustus game. Maybe I
should
> actually do it.

You should. Then I can play


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 05:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Aug  5 04:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat
In-Reply-To: <d1.1c5d7500.2a7f99af@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4F04E9.7899.17C7EF@localhost>

On 5 Aug 2002 at 5:04, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> My tables say a factor 5 fusion gun will hit a 20kton AG6 ship on a
> roll of (6 base + 6 agility - 1 size = ) 11+.  Yeah, I see your
> point, though I would take repairs into account.  But I think a
> capital ship has armor 15. 

Armour 15 is only legal for planetoids and buffered planetoids until 
TL15, remember.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 05:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 04:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <3436.64.8.3.28.1028520584.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com> <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net> <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <20020805075953.A24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <3436.64.8.3.28.1028520584.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020805215043.E25687@freeman.little-possums.net>

hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> There is always the ability to design bigger and faster missiles using
> GURPS VEHICLES and the guidelines presented with TRAVELLER itself.

Yes, that's what I'm wondering about.  Do I want to design better
weapons and tactics for my Traveller game, at the expense of making it
less like Traveller?  Or do I try to rationalise the existing ones to
maintain compatibility with what other people have done?


>  A friend of mine created an inertial guided missile that removes
> the explosive warhead from the missile and turned it into a kinetic
> kill device.

Yes; either remove the chemical warhead or replace it with a fusion
warhead.  A chemical explosive makes little sense.  Even the standard
missiles accelerate to 72 km/s in the first round -- putting a
chemical explosive in them is a bit like putting a spring-loaded
boxing glove on an anti-tank penetrator.


> The missile frigate then starts a high speed run against the
> intended target and launches its missiles outside of sensor range of
> an enemy ship.

That works under the standard rules, too.  I've had vague thoughts in
the same direction, but didn't actually get round to testing them.


> Do the math and see how much damage a single missile moving at 90
> hexes per turn does ;)

Yes, I know.  Kinetic energy *kills*.  Give the missiles better
thrusters and an extra-heavy frame for even more (unnecessary) damage
with less run-up required.  You could even put a bunch of them on a
bus chassis so they can all share a power plant for the initial boost,
and make the individual energy banks much smaller.


> What bothers me most is that Meson Screens in High Guard usually had a
> GOOD chance of stopping the damage *entirely*.  In GURPS TRAVELLER, Meson
> screens *always* let damage through.

??  Not as I read it.

A 100k-dton ship with 7000 meson screen modules has a maximum DR vs
meson guns of about 180000.  Usually the operator will manage to
succeed on their roll by 4 and get half that, 90000.

A spinal meson gun typically does between 60000-87000 damage, so it
will usually only penetrate if the operator doesn't perform well.

It is not true that damage *always* gets through.  Granted, that is a
*lot* of shielding; 7% screens by volume.  It is protecting against
the biggest weapon in the basic book, though!


> Thus, for me, the best way to build GURPS TRAVELLER meson weapons is
> to have them do less damage, but have a higher rate of fire -
> increasing their accuracy value.

Yes, this might have been better.


> Oh well.  The best thing about GURPS TRAVELLER and GURPS VEHICLES - is you
> can create *any* technological innovations you want for your campaign. 

Yes, I quite enjoy this part.  I just have to keep reminding myself to
tone things down from the standard GURPS tech level assumptions, or I
will very rapidly find myself unable to steal other people's ideas for
my now ex-Traveller game :)


> You want to know what the results are of a 50 lb rock tossed via a
> Trebuchet against a Far Trader's hull?  GURPS VEHICLES has rules for
> it.

Yes, this sort of very wide scope is what I like best about GURPS in
general.  Given Traveller's range of planetary tech levels, this might
easily come up in a game!


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 05:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 04:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Landgrab Vilis
Message-ID: <200208051155.MCP01180@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mark Urbin says
>If John doesn't mind, I could do Garda-Vilis.
>Filling in details around his outlines or vice-versa.

Sounds OK. I seem to remember some adventure that took place 
on Garda-Vilis, and it mentions Vilis as well, so I'm going 
to have to take a look at that.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 06:03:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shadowcat)
Date: Mon Aug  5 05:03:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Large Scale Games, One Traveller, one WW3[Long]
In-Reply-To: <194.af51b03.2a7f3c97@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4E1A82.455.14DD3F@localhost>

couple of examples come to mind from the distant past, one of 
which was actually part of the playtesting for the Combined Arms 
Command Decision Rules.

many years ago, GDW along with the Central Illinois Tabletop 
Warrriors ran a couple of megagames which were part of the 
Wilderness Project, the first was the wilderness campaign from the 
American Civil War, and the second, a year later roughly, was the 
first day of WW3 based along the lines of Red Storm Rising. these 
games took place in a classroom building at the University of 
Illinois and involved dozens of players and judges. communications 
lag, fog of war and just general confusion, along with assorted rules 
problems best left for another forum, made for an interesting day.

The second game was a traveller game at a previous Winter Wars 
a couple of years after the historic Shadows tournament, which 
was called Diplomatic Mission. This was a 6 hour game with 24 
players that dealt with the reopening of trade to a redzoned world.
One Team was the on planet contact team, the other team was the 
bureaucrats and nobles who had to make the final decisions based 
on the information they were getting from the planet. the off planet 
team was a jump away, and this was represented by a 15 minute 
time lag. each team had different objectives, and each player had 
personal objectives and goals, so not everyone was working 
together or even on the same side actually.

This game lasted 6 very hectic hours, and had a grand total of 2 die 
rolls, the contact teams psi expert was revealed as a spy, and the 
teams security officer executed him on the spot pretty much.

I have seriously considered reconstructing the aspects of this 
game for another convention, or even as an IRC game, but there 
are too many problems for it to work as an IRC game.






From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 06:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 05:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <3688.64.8.3.28.1028521212.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com> <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net> <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]> <20020805081803.B24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <3688.64.8.3.28.1028521212.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020805221551.F25687@freeman.little-possums.net>

hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> What you do is build lasers whose only purpose of existance is to
> damage missiles.  Build those lasers so that you have a high rate of
> fire.

High RoF doesn't do a lot.  It just counts as a bonus to hit in the
combat system.  e.g. Multiplying the RoF by 16 gives you +4 bonus.
This would mean 2 extra hits per shot, except:

For the same volume requirement, your weapon has to use about 10 times
less energy per shot.  That cuts the damage by a factor of about 3,
which doesn't matter a lot against the standard missiles.  It will
however reduce your range by a factor of 3 -- not a problem, you say,
because you only need less than a hex?  Range directly determines
accuracy, which will thus drop by 3.

The net effect is a +1 to hit.  You're almost back where you started,
except that now your weapon is greatly restricted in its utility for
any other role.

I've been along that route :-/


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 06:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 05:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
Message-ID: <2da64f2ddca2.2ddca22da64f@us.army.mil>

----- Original Message -----
From: Hunter Gordon <trav@RPGRealms.com>
Date: Sunday, August 4, 2002 11:45 am
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)

> 
> On 8/4/2002 at 4:21 PM Antony Farrell wrote:
> 
> >Was that spam and eggs
> >or spam, spam egs and spam?
> 
> Ok gotta keep it on topic!
> 
> Pardons if this has actually been covered previously.
> 
> So does SPAM survive the Rule of Man, the Long Night and into the 
> Third Imperium? If so, is it just a Solomani thing, or have the 
> Vilani and others come to enjoy this uniquely Terran... ummm .... 
> stuff? I'm just picturing a group of adventurers finding an old 
> Rule of Man cache, stockpiled with cans of good old SPAM!

Ah, you should have saved that question for a Newbie Essay [tm]! ;-)

Actually, it's quite plausible that SPAM was a significant factor in the 
Solomanification of former Vilani worlds.  To wit:

1.  SPAM would likely be included in relief aid to former Vilani worlds 
ravaged by Terran-introduced pandemics.
2.  Given that SPAM does not require processing by shugiili, and that 
SPAM has a relatively long shelf life ("long" in a geological sense, 
that is), it would go far in breaking the power of the shugiili in 
Vilani society.
3.  Add to these factors the relative conservatism of Vilani culture and 
you find that, once SPAM was introduced on former Vilani-ruled worlds, 
it tended to remain a staple of the diet on those worlds, thus ensuring 
that SPAM would continue to be consumed (if not necessarily enjoyed) up 
into M:1100.
4.  Until such time as the fine folks at Hormel licensed the production 
of SPAM on worlds other than Earth, the Terrans would be the only source 
of this staple, thus economically binding the former Vilani worlds 
closer to Terra.  Even after SPAM production began on worlds other than 
Earth, genuine Terran SPAM was held to be superior, commanding premium 
prices.  This coopted Sharushiid into the ruling SPAM consortium.
5.  We can thus also see that the Solomani Rim War, with its focus on 
the capture of Terra, was driven by the desire to control the original 
point source of SPAM.

QED. ;-)

Hmmm.  Perhaps I should write up Hormel Foods as a megacorp using the 
Universal Corporate Profile from _101 Corporations_....



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 06:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 05:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <2e4d282e3963.2e39632e4d28@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Date: Sunday, August 4, 2002 3:26 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller


<<snip>>
> > 
> > Army?  What army?
> 
> I'll believe that when I see it. This sort of talking has always 
> turned 
> out to be wishful thinking in the past, and I see no reason why it 
> isn't now. It's all very well while you're thrashing low-tech 
> thrid-
> worlders, but sooner or later there'll be another first-world vs 
> first-
> world scrap, and spec ops teams relying on vast amounts of support 
> just 
> won't cut it.
> 
I refer readers to the Fehrenbach quote the opens Chapter 1 of GT:GF.  
Words to the effect of (quoted from memory):

You may fly over a land forever; you may bomb it, atomize it, sterilize 
it and wipe it clean of life; but if you wish to defend it for 
civilization, you must do this the way the Romans did, by putting your 
young men into the mud.

ObTrav:  1: The quote was used in a Trav book.  2: The eternal Trav 
debate of "why an Army"?  


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 06:56:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 05:56:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020805191412.A25687@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804192145.024cac00@192.168.0.1>
 <02080313391901.00601@linux>
 <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
 <02080313391901.00601@linux>
 <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020804192145.024cac00@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805084630.018ca4e0@192.168.0.1>

At 07:14 PM 8/5/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
> > At 08:19 AM 8/5/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
> > >What does that matter?  They obviously don't need trade for survival.
> > >It's not like they'll starve if you isolate them.
> > On what do you base that on?
>The fact that high-pop worlds (including airless rockballs) have very
>little trade compared to their population.  If they relied on external
>trade for food they would all have starved to death long ago.

That would depend on what they have to trade and what planets are 
convenient trading partners.
It's not a bad rule of thumb though.

>Look at Kwai Ching, for example (as one you should be familiar with :)
>Its per-capita imports from all the other systems in the subsector
>combined are about 0.8 Cr/week.  Whatever the population is eating
>every day, it isn't imported food.  Kwai Ching actually has
>significantly more than the median per-capita trade for high-pop
>vacuum worlds.

Kwai Ching is an interesting example.  They really have no choice but to 
produce the majority, if not all of their food.
They are not part of an established trading federation, and their imports 
are spotty at best due to ethically challenged merchant activity.
(that's according to GT: Behind the Claw, and the example Tim is using.)

>Obviously most of them (probably all) have local means of production.
>They may import some luxury foods (who doesn't?), but certainly not
>staples.  This is not surprising -- the level of technology required
>to grow food plants and animals is not exactly excessive or costly,
>and the side-benefits include the ability to recycle your organic
>wastes, air and water.  That's much better than importing food at a
>large markup.

To produce a variety of food that would keep a large population happy 
requires a large amount of space, water and energy.
If you have a very strict government, you can enforce a limited diet (Grand 
Chairman Mao XXXIX says you should eat green
Cereal for breakfast with soy milk, green bread (with a slice of hamster 
meat if you make your quota) for lunch, and green soup for dinner).
If you have bulk traders making a regular run through the system, and there 
is an Agricultural planet on their loop, the rockball can get a wide 
variety of foodstuffs without the large markup.

If it's not economically viable to produce 100% of the food locally, why 
should they do it?



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 07:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 06:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPAEBKEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <181.c196c70.2a7ed4f5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805085604.018d7340@192.168.0.1>

At 05:30 PM 8/5/2002 +0800, Antony Farrell wrote:
>It is canon, Traveller has whopping big fleet carriers (not to mention the
>Tigress class BBs) which carry huge number of fighters.
>
>The imperium obviously believes they have a need for large numbers of
>fighters. AFAIK carrier squadrons are equated with cruiser squadrons (see
>Fighting Ships) and presumably carry out some of the same missions. Commerce
>raiding is possible but would you need a fleet carrier for that?

Aren't fighters viable against lower tech ships?
The Imperium does maintain a tech advantage over most of it's neighbors.
Especially in those smaller governments in Reavers' Deep or Spinward of the 
Marches.
Jump in system, and swarms of fighters are bloody everywhere, at least in 
the view of the locals....

Nice saber rattle, if the Imperium can put 10+ TL E-F fighters against 
every TL A-C SDB or customs cutter the locals have.

This frees up the destroyers and Cruisers to knock out any Capital ships 
and look menacing in Orbit.

>So given that carrier squadrons exist if they are totally useless against
>other cruiser squadrons what would they be used for. I submit it could also
>mean that point defence systems are not as good as the navy would have us
>believe.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 07:02:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 06:02:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Landgrab Vilis
In-Reply-To: <200208051155.MCP01180@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805090123.018d3468@192.168.0.1>

At 07:55 AM 8/5/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>Mark Urbin says
> >If John doesn't mind, I could do Garda-Vilis.
> >Filling in details around his outlines or vice-versa.
>Sounds OK. I seem to remember some adventure that took place
>on Garda-Vilis, and it mentions Vilis as well, so I'm going
>to have to take a look at that.

Broadsword.  I have a copy.




---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 07:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon Aug  5 06:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020805041046.16273.821.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <003101c23c82$2a486dc0$b35d8690@computer>

> From: Mark
> It will be the wackos waiting for the world to end who demand that 100% of
> all needed foodstuffs be grown locally.
> Everybody sane knows that tons of fresh food arrive every week...
> Ya, that algae is good for you, but it tastes funny and turns everything
> green!

First: why are you talking about algae? Algae is for fish.

Secondly, you can probably produce _more_ food than you need, and at least
some of your "agricultural land" is likely to be used as recreational areas,
as a reserve of biomass, and as supplementary life support.

Otherwise your life support systems lack redundancy.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 07:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 06:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020805202103.D25687@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804223247.0237e008@192.168.0.1>
 <20020804232303.7408.33320.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <006701c23c1f$2baff600$195d8690@computer>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020804223247.0237e008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805090845.01831e50@192.168.0.1>

At 08:21 PM 8/5/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
> > The supply ships stop coming...and you're only producing enough food
> > locally to feed 50-60% of the population.
>
>If you can find a high-pop world that has enough trade to feed just a
>tenth of its population, even if it was importing nothing but food, I
>will be surprised.

I'll have to dig through the back lists, but I remember detailed analysis 
of the CT trading rules being done years ago.
It was determined that published trade rules didn't fit the big picture.
Large bulk traders were needed in core sectors to make it work.
Some of these traders were designed and published.

>Most of them don't import enough to account for even 2% of their food
>requirements, still assuming that they import nothing but food.
>
>A 40-50% local shortfall is unsupportable by a factor of 30 or so.  It
>is much more likely that most of them are producing amply enough to
>feed their population.

I agree with you in places like the Marches, or even more frontier settings.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 07:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Aug  5 06:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: JTAS
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D00@USCHM203>

Just wanted to add my vote. JTAS is well worth the money. The archives alone
are worth many times the subscription price.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 07:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Mon Aug  5 06:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
In-Reply-To: <2da64f2ddca2.2ddca22da64f@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020805084634.00a56560@minn.net>

At 03:46 PM 8/5/2002 +0300, john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:

>4.  Until such time as the fine folks at Hormel licensed the production 
>of SPAM on worlds other than Earth, the Terrans would be the only source 
>of this staple, thus economically binding the former Vilani worlds 
>closer to Terra.  Even after SPAM production began on worlds other than 
>Earth, genuine Terran SPAM was held to be superior, commanding premium 
>prices.  This coopted Sharushiid into the ruling SPAM consortium.
>5.  We can thus also see that the Solomani Rim War, with its focus on 
>the capture of Terra, was driven by the desire to control the original 
>point source of SPAM.
>
>QED. ;-)
>
>Hmmm.  Perhaps I should write up Hormel Foods as a megacorp using the 
>Universal Corporate Profile from _101 Corporations_....

The canned chili is okay too, I usually lay a couple of slices of processed
cheese food product on top when I microsave it. 

(Across cyberspace, someone asks himself: What about processed cheese food
products in the Third Imperium?)


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 07:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 06:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
Message-ID: <200208051354.MCT02502@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leslie Bates says
>What about processed cheese food
>products in the Third Imperium?)

This is along the lines of "great cultural contributions by 
the Solomani".

Baseball
Beer
SPAM
Processed cheese product(in all its various forms)
Artificial butter flavored topping
French fries
Sliced bread
Microwave oven
Burrito
"Sports" drink (including canned sweat)
Pop music
"Shtick" (I'm sorry, I can't see a Vilani stand-up comic)

________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 08:11:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Aug  5 07:11:41 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D03@USCHM203>

Message: 2
From: sneadj@mindspring.com
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 22:16:45 -0700
>John Snead wrote:

>ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>) wrote:

>> "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> writes:
>> > 
>> > Personally, I find it hard to shed many tears for Hiroshima,
>> > Nagasaki, or Dresden.
>> 
>> I dunno--the firebombing of Dresden is IMHO one of the worst war
>> crimes committed by the US.  Esp. the bit about destroying emergency
>> vehicles...
>> 
>> That no-one was ever strung up for it is a travesty.  We're supposed
>> to be better than that.

>Agreed.  Hiroshima and Nagasaki can at least be argued as being 
>better than the alternatives (although I've heard several different 
>PoVs about how exactly necessary bombing Nagasaki was).  
>However, Dresden is an amazingly clear cut case.  It was an act of 
>terror and vengeance easily as bad as anything the other side did 
>in it's bombing of civilian targets.

You're both right, and I'm not proud of how I feel about it. It's nothing
personal against Germans as a people. My best friend's parents are from
Germany, and both his grandfathers served in the Wehrmacht. I've played
soccer for several German-American teams, and took 6 years of German
language in HS.
It's just that, knowing the barbarism committed by that regime, and having
seen more than a few older folks around town with faded tattoes on their
forearms, I sometimes think the bomb should have been dropped on Berlin or
Hamburg(yes, I know the war in Europe ended before that was possible).
As atrociously as the Japanese behaved, they never committed organized and
institutionalized genocide.
Regardless, as was said, in hindsight, and in the long run, it was probably
the wrong thing to do, and yes, we are supposed to be better than that. 
I honestly think that most of the time we are.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 08:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 07:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <200208051427.MCU00107@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Hurrel, Brian" says
<snip about how humans should be better to humans>

Yes, that's a nice sentiment.  But at what point do humans 
apply this to other sophonts?

I've read a pretty persuasive argument by Charles Pellegrino 
that outlines every reason why we should, even in the absence 
of direct contact, assume that a starfaring species, a 
species capable of manipulating the energies necessary to 
span stellar distances, is a direct apocalyptic threat to our 
existence, and that other species must make this same 
assumption about us.  The penalty for not making this 
assumption and being wrong is annihilation of your own 
species.  Even if there's a 1 in 10,000 chance you're wrong 
about the alien species' peaceful intentions, and they turn 
out to be hostile, being wrong means your species ceases to 
exist.

A ship making an interstellar crossing to our system near the 
speed of light is more of a weapon than all of our 
thermonuclear arsenal put together. (sorry - this isn't 
intended to bring up near-c rocks!).  So, are those ships we 
see coming (their antimatter rocket drive emissions will be 
quite distinctive) at near-c, are they peaceful emissaries, 
or weapons on the way.

And if we develop such rockets ourselves, and we know that it 
took us only 200 years from the advent of radio to the 
invention of the antimatter beamed-core rocket, what would we 
make of radio signals we detect from systems 20 or so light 
years away?  May we assume that the countdown has begun?

Humans have a built-in cultural inhibition against 
intraspecies murder - or else murder would be more common.  
But make it an alien species, and we won't have that 
inhibition by nature.  Any inhibition we have will come from 
intellect and not instinct.  And any restraint we have will 
be easy, perilously easy, to lose.  It will be difficult not 
to fear them by instinct.

We kill plenty of dolphins, if only by accident, and few 
humans see that as a tragic killing of a sophont.  We 
certainly don't generally see the killing of non-human 
possible sophonts as the same type of killing as a "homicide".
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 09:06:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Aug  5 08:06:42 2002
Subject: [TML] 40-year olds
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D06@USCHM203>

>From: Tod Glenn wrote:

>>> Why does the Army do this?  Because 40 year olds, as a
>>> whole, have sufficient problems that the Army knows it will
>>> lose more in attempting to incorporate them than it will
>>> gain.
>> 
>> No, no, no.  The reason the Army won't enlist you is because
>> the "useful lifetime" of the older soldier is shorter.
> 
> Well, now you are citing "the needs of the service" rather than the right
to
> serve.  I think the needs of the service should be consistently foremost.

>It should be noted that the same types of restrictions apply to other
>Federal service.  For example, you cannot apply to any federal law
>enforcement agency unless you will have enough years of service for
>retirement by age 55.  Meaning that after age 35, your too old to be an
FBI,
>DEA or ATF agent.

Unless you already have time in. If you served 4 years in the Navy(or any
service) when you were younger, you could actually join up to age 39 to have
your 20 years before 55.
I was casually looking into joining the NJ Air National Guard (because the
Corps sure as s*** isn't going to take my sorry out of shape butt back at
this age, and because I'm married, a father, and don't feel like running
around swamps anymore). I thought I would be automatically disqualified
after age 35, but my previous time in counts, so I actually have some leeway
should I decide to join.
The nice thing is I woudn't have to go to boot camp. The not-so-nice thing
is the ANG doesn't have dress blues.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 09:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Mon Aug  5 08:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: meduim navies
Message-ID: <3D4E984B.99EF2E24@mail.cswnet.com>

David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson writes:
>No, no, no, _Marc_ is receiving income from sending out _his_ >collected CT shards - Oh! I see what you meant.

Right. Shionthy [imtu] is one of those rare exceptions where the 3I gets
income from a red zone. Instead of getting its 30% in credits, it gets
the equivalent amount in CT-Shards. Note that this does not mean that
the Imperuim does not buy CT-Shards; they'll snatch everyone they can
get there hands on. But the planetary payment that Shionthy makes as a
member of the Imperuim [imtu] should be in CT-Shards.

Course thats all imtu and not landgrab...

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 09:28:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Aug  5 08:28:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Movies
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D08@USCHM203>

Regarding "accuracy" or "worthiness" of SF book to movie translations,
unless a group of die-hard fans can come up with the millions of dollars
neccessary to produce even the simplest sci-fi film, our choices are, for
the most part, going to be between "Paul Verhoeven's Starship Troopers" and
"No Starship Troopers".

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 10:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 09:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] places to get plots for adventures
Message-ID: <200208051614.MCX05321@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

just watching "Wait Until Dark".  incredibly good hook to get 
a traveller party into deep trouble
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 10:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 09:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
Message-ID: <200208051642.JAA31293@molly.iii.com>

David Shayne <daveshayne@ameritech.net> writes:
> 
>> Any clues?
>
>I couldn't find that info in any TNE source. There are charts for that
>in "World Builder's Handbook" for MT. Assuming for the moment that you
>don't have access to that very worthwhile publication I can give you
>some typical figures from that source.
>
>Smallest SGG radius = 20
>Average SGG radius ~= 60
>Highest SGG radius = 100
>
>Smallest LGG radius = 110
>Average LGG radius ~= 175
>Highest LGG radius = 240

Applying a realism check here, Jupiter, at size 88, is about the limit
for any sort of gas giant (assuming TNE size is in thousands of miles,
like CT size).
>
>Lowest GG density = .1
>Average GG density ~= .21
>Highest GG density = .3

Assuming that's g/cc, that's horribly wrong. Saturn has a density of 0.69
and is probably near the low end of possible densities; all of the other
gas giants have densities between 1 and 2.  A large gas giant, at 4x
jupiter mass and about the same diameter, would be as dense as the earth.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 10:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 09:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <20020805165054.0EF364501@mo120usjc.palm.net>

Alan Bradley <abradley1@bigpond.com> wrote:
>> From: Mark 
>> It will be the wackos waiting for the world to end who demand that 100% of 
>> all needed foodstuffs be grown locally. 
>> Everybody sane knows that tons of fresh food arrive every week... 
>> Ya, that algae is good for you, but it tastes funny and turns everything 
>> green! 
>First: why are you talking about algae? Algae is for fish. 

Spirulina. A type of blue-green algae which is very cheap to grow, is 70% protein, has required amino acids, and a wide range of required vitamins & minerals.  You can easily process it to a flour subsitute.  And o can feed it to the fish in your fish farms.
Very hard to beat in bang for buck catagory.

>Secondly, you can probably produce _more_ food than you need, and at least 
>some of your "agricultural land" is likely to be used as recreational areas, 
>as a reserve of biomass, and as supplementary life support. 

Yes, on  well run, well designed system.  How many, out on the fringes, are optimzed for profit, instead of safety or even comfort?
> 
>Otherwise your life support systems lack redundancy. 

----------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere. 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 11:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 10:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes
Message-ID: <200208051705.KAA00273@molly.iii.com>

hal@buffnet.net writes:

>Hello Folks,
>  Just a question of sorts...
>
>In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head tax" or does it charge
>an income tax on its citizens for its Imperial Budget requirements?  In
>short, if the Imperial government taxes 10% of a Gross Planetary Product,
>then it would in essence be an income tax.  If it charges a flat 500 CR
>per person on a planet, then it is a head tax.  Which is it?

It's not clear if either one is the case.  We really have only two bits of
canon to go from:

In Striker, the implication is that the imperial military tax is simply 1/3
of the planet's total military expenditure (with another 1/3 going to the
subsector fleet, so the world only keeps 1/3 for personal forces).  This
would be some sort of production tax (and, conveniently for those who want
to keep fleet sizes down, gives most planets a reason to restrict their 
military expenditures).

Our other canonical information is the 2% imperial stake in megacorps.  If
we extend this to other interstellar corporations, it's basically a 2% 
corporate income tax.

The depiction of the strength of the Imperial government is a bit 
inconsistent in Traveller materials, but all canon requires we maintain 
is the imperial military (covered by the military tax above), the scouts,
and the starports; starports would mostly pay for themselves with fees,
and might be central points for collecting the Imperium's 2% share.  In
any case, the 2% tax on interstellar corporations is probably sufficient
to pay for most of the known remaining Imperial expenditures.

Beyond this, the Imperium probably has some right to require worlds to
provide certain classes of service, which is indirectly a tax but would be
pretty much at the discretion of the local duke.

>And I find it an interesting thought here.  If the Imperium charges say,
>3% of a planet's gross planetary product for its military taxes - this tax
>is on top of the local ruler's/government's tax.  How much in the way of
>taxes can a population take before its economy begins to stagnate?

Well, that depends on how the taxes are spent; as long as the taxes are
spent locally in an efficient manner it isn't necessarily crippling to
have very high tax rates; under some circumstances (typically infrastructure)
a government can spend money more efficiently than private industry.  The
main thing that's crippling is spending tax money on things that don't grow
the economy, such as the military, though you want to keep tax rates modest
to give people a reason to work.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 11:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 10:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Sensors - too sensitive?
Message-ID: <200208051724.KAA01911@molly.iii.com>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:

>Was just reading a news blurb about a new radio telescope at 
>Green Bank.  They had some problems with local interference, 
>namely a dog's heating pad.  The pad would intermittently 
>give off bursts of radio noise.
>
>Given the tendency to want to put sensor suites on our ships 
>that can pick out the static on a party balloon at 10 million 
>kilometers, I'm wondering if there's a real limit that won't 
>be overcome by fancy algorithms or software.  If you're on 
>the surface of the Imperial Capital, and using your short 
>range communicator, and I'm trying to find you amidst the 
>cacophony of billions of similar users in an ultramodern EM 
>noisy environment, do I really stand a chance even if I'm 
>using the sensor array on a Tigress class fun machine?

Depends on your assumptions about the capability of Traveller computers;
I suspect that a lot of the Traveller sensor arrays would have problems
with being swamped with data.  Short answer is, you can probably find the
communicator if you know where to look, but if you're doing a general scan
the Tigress' noise reduction software will probably delete said 
communication as probable noise long before any human sees it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 11:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 10:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
Message-ID: <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:

>David P. Summers wrote:
>> Missiles are very damaging.  However, they also can be intercepted.
>> The utility of missiles depends on how many missiles you have vs how
>> much point defense you foe has.
>
>Yes, I'd noticed that too.  In particular, the existing missiles and
>launchers can be greatly upgraded to achieve much better results
>against point defense for rather little cost.

Of course, point defense can be greatly upgraded with fairly little 
effort to achieve much better results against missiles, so the point
may be moot.  If nothing else, a short range countermissile capable 
of taking out an incoming missile is probably less than 10% of the 
weight and cost of the incoming missile.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 12:05:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Mon Aug  5 11:05:12 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
In-Reply-To: <200208051354.MCT02502@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020805130540.00a575f0@minn.net>

At 09:54 AM 8/5/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>Leslie Bates says
>>What about processed cheese food
>>products in the Third Imperium?)

One of my landladies (the one I based the character of Dana Wolfsburg on)
flippantly said that she thought "cheese food" was something that should be
consumed by cheese beings, and that somewhere there should be a planet of
the sentient cheeses.

>This is along the lines of "great cultural contributions by 
>the Solomani".
>
>Baseball
>Beer

Pizza!

>SPAM
>Processed cheese product(in all its various forms)
>Artificial butter flavored topping
>French fries
>Sliced bread

Chocolate Chip ice cream!

>Microwave oven
>Burrito
>"Sports" drink (including canned sweat)
>Pop music
>"Shtick" (I'm sorry, I can't see a Vilani stand-up comic)

I tried to envision a Vilani Stand up comic, he was a member of the
comedian caste who would stand on the stage and recite the numbers of each
of the jokes. This of course leads to the Terrans having a practically
unassailable advantage in the field of joke warfare. (Although some Vilani
confessed to being baffled by Monty Python's Undertaker Sketch.)


Les
==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 12:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Aug  5 11:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] dangerous children
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020730204623.00a5e300@minn.net>
References: <5hbeku4e63psd36ctqa7c96oubp4h39kg7@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <3D4EDD10.12761.2F9903@localhost>

On 30 Jul 2002, at 20:46, Leslie Bates wrote:
> In 101 Corporations, page 28:
> 
> 	"Little is known about the inner workings of the Famille', although the
> dark rumours of inbreeding with eugenic intent, rampant substance abuse,
> and child labour are so prevalent they may be at least partly true (and the
> High Energy and Starship Weapons Divisions are both led by children of
> dubious stability).

"This is getting out of hand. Now there are two of them."

"We should never have made this bargain."

(I still haven't got 101 Corps, but will in a few weeks...)

/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 12:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Scott Ayres)
Date: Mon Aug  5 11:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] 40-year olds
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D06@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <20020805182204.21845.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> wrote:
> >From: Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> >>> Why does the Army do this?  Because 40 year
> olds, as a...  [snip]

> "Unless you already have time in. If you served 4
years in the Navy(or any service) when you were
younger, you could actually join up to age 39 to have
your 20 years before 55. I was casually looking into
joining the NJ Air National Guard (because the Corps
sure as s*** isn't going to take my sorry out of shape
butt back at this age, and because I'm married, a
father, and don't feel like running around swamps
anymore). I thought I would be automatically
disqualified  after age 35, but my previous time in
counts, so I actually have some leeway should I decide
to join.  The nice thing is I woudn't have to go to
boot camp.  The not-so-nice thing is the ANG doesn't
have dress blues."


Supply & Demand.  That's all it is.  In my class for
Army helicopter school, we had a 39-yr 2LT w/ 2-yrs of
prior service (18 yrs before as an E-3): the Army
needed pilots.  Later, I saw an USAF pilot trainee w/o
a spleen: the USAF needed pilots.  FWIW, the USAF (&
ANG) do have "dress blues" as well as the Army, but
they're nowhere near as pretty as the USMC's.  IMO,
the AF blues look more like a cocktail party ensemble.

In my experience, many things are waiverable.  Not
all, but many.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 12:31:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Mon Aug  5 11:31:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Aircraft carrier displacement
In-Reply-To: <200208051705.KAA00273@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <20020805183051.18082.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>

 Would anyone here know how many displacement tons a
U.S. aircraft carrier like the "Enterprise" would be?
Needing to get a visualization in my head for an
interplanetary structure in my game. 
Any help is appreciated.
thanks.


=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 13:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Aug  5 12:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Aircraft carrier displacement
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D0D@USCHM203>

 Daniel Tackett wrote:

> Would anyone here know how many displacement tons a
>U.S. aircraft carrier like the "Enterprise" would be?
>Needing to get a visualization in my head for an
>interplanetary structure in my game. 
>Any help is appreciated.
>thanks.

About 18,000 tons

Check out Ken Pick's excellent essay on Traveller starship tonnage. It's on
the Freelance Traveller website, I believe.

Basically:

	5 tons gross ship displacement(in today's nautical terms)=1
displacement ton in Traveller.

These are approximate, and there are some fairly complicated variables, but
this is a good rule of thumb.

The essay also lists some typical ships and their Traveller tonnage:

Destroyer USS Cole (TL9): 8400 tons full-load = approx 1700 Tons Traveller 
Carrier USS Enterprise (TL7): 75000 tons std, 90000 full-load = approx.
18000 Tons Traveller 
Light Carrier HMS Invincible (TL8): 16000 tons std, 20000 full-load =
approx. 4000 Tons Traveller 
Carrier USS Nimitz (TL8-9): 80000 tons std, 92000 full-load = approx. 18000
Tons Traveller 
(Moderately-armored) 
Battlecruiser HMS Hood (TL5): 42000 tons std, 45000 full-load = approx. 7500
Tons Traveller 
Typical "Treaty Cruiser" (TL5-6): 10000 tons std, 13000 full-load = approx.
2000 Tons Traveller 
Armored Cruiser KMS Graf Spee (TL6): 12000 tons std, 16000full-load =
approx. 2600 Tons Traveller 
Battlecruiser KMS Scharnhorst (TL6): 32000 tons std, 38000 full-load =
approx. 6300 Tons Traveller 
Carrier HMS Ark Royal (TL6): 22000 tons std, 28000 full-load = approx. 4500
Tons Traveller 
Carrier USS Enterprise (TL6): 20000 tons std, 26000 full-load = approx. 4300
Tons Traveller 
(Heavily-armored) 
Battleship USS Oregon (TL4): 10000 tons std, 12000 full-load = approx. 1700
Tons Traveller 
Battleship HMS Majestic (TL4): 15000 tons std, 16000 full-load = approx.
2300 Tons Traveller 
Battleship HMS Dreadnaught (TL5): 18000 tons std, 22000 full-load = approx.
3000 Tons Traveller 
Battleship USS Arizona (TL5): 25000 tons std, 33000 full-load = approx. 5000
Tons Traveller 
Battleship KMS Bismarck (TL6): 42000 tons std, 50000 full-load = approx.
7000 Tons Traveller 
Battleship USS New Jersey (TL6): 45000 tons std, 58000 full-load = approx.
8000 Tons Traveller 
Battleship HIJMS Yamato (TL6): 60000 tons std, 72000 full-load = approx.
10000 Tons Traveller 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 13:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 12:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The cloak
Message-ID: <20020805193223.638E04510@mo120usjc.palm.net>

The favorite obsuring garment of the ages.  From knights hiding their armor & swords to Kent Allard striking terror in the hearts of evil doers...it has been part of popular fiction.

How common are they in your Traveller universe?


----------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
IHTFP - FNORD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 13:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Mon Aug  5 12:35:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Aircraft carrier displacement
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D0D@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <20020805193342.51708.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com>

Thank you very much. This is a big help. Thank you
also for all the additional information as well.
Some surprizing numbers.






> Check out Ken Pick's excellent essay on Traveller
> starship tonnage. It's on
> the Freelance Traveller website, I believe.
> 
> Basically:
> 
> 	5 tons gross ship displacement(in today's nautical
> terms)=1
> displacement ton in Traveller.
> 
> These are approximate, and there are some fairly
> complicated variables, but
> this is a good rule of thumb.
> 
> The essay also lists some typical ships and their
> Traveller tonnage:
> 
> Destroyer USS Cole (TL9): 8400 tons full-load =
> approx 1700 Tons Traveller 
> Carrier USS Enterprise (TL7): 75000 tons std, 90000
> full-load = approx.
> 18000 Tons Traveller 
> Light Carrier HMS Invincible (TL8): 16000 tons std,
> 20000 full-load =
> approx. 4000 Tons Traveller 
> Carrier USS Nimitz (TL8-9): 80000 tons std, 92000
> full-load = approx. 18000
> Tons Traveller 
> (Moderately-armored) 
> Battlecruiser HMS Hood (TL5): 42000 tons std, 45000
> full-load = approx. 7500
> Tons Traveller 
> Typical "Treaty Cruiser" (TL5-6): 10000 tons std,
> 13000 full-load = approx.
> 2000 Tons Traveller 
> Armored Cruiser KMS Graf Spee (TL6): 12000 tons std,
> 16000full-load =
> approx. 2600 Tons Traveller 
> Battlecruiser KMS Scharnhorst (TL6): 32000 tons std,
> 38000 full-load =
> approx. 6300 Tons Traveller 
> Carrier HMS Ark Royal (TL6): 22000 tons std, 28000
> full-load = approx. 4500
> Tons Traveller 
> Carrier USS Enterprise (TL6): 20000 tons std, 26000
> full-load = approx. 4300
> Tons Traveller 
> (Heavily-armored) 
> Battleship USS Oregon (TL4): 10000 tons std, 12000
> full-load = approx. 1700
> Tons Traveller 
> Battleship HMS Majestic (TL4): 15000 tons std, 16000
> full-load = approx.
> 2300 Tons Traveller 
> Battleship HMS Dreadnaught (TL5): 18000 tons std,
> 22000 full-load = approx.
> 3000 Tons Traveller 
> Battleship USS Arizona (TL5): 25000 tons std, 33000
> full-load = approx. 5000
> Tons Traveller 
> Battleship KMS Bismarck (TL6): 42000 tons std, 50000
> full-load = approx.
> 7000 Tons Traveller 
> Battleship USS New Jersey (TL6): 45000 tons std,
> 58000 full-load = approx.
> 8000 Tons Traveller 
> Battleship HIJMS Yamato (TL6): 60000 tons std, 72000
> full-load = approx.
> 10000 Tons Traveller 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 13:46:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 12:46:14 2002
Subject: [TML] The cloak
Message-ID: <200208051944.MDF01639@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Mark Urbin" asks
>How common are they in your Traveller universe?

Fairly common.  I happen to own one in RL (dark brown) that 
is fairly short (just past the waist).

Hate to say it, though, it doesn't blend in in RL.  For that, 
in cooler weather, I have a black London Fog trenchcoat. 
Short military haircut, black suit, black trenchcoat, black 
gloves.  Non-descript four-door dark blue car (Crown Vic, 
Taurus, or Intrepid - the Muldermobile or similar).

Want to have fun?  Just go to the park where Vince Foster 
killed himself, get out of the car, and walk around.  
Especially if there are two of you - the local spring/fall 
picnic crowd will scatter like quail when they see you (the 
first time I did this, it was an accident - now it's just 
entertainment).

You won't have to say a thing, or impersonate anyone.  People 
will run.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 13:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Strain)
Date: Mon Aug  5 12:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020805020920.12005.8746.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <009601c23cba$8a780420$64a85940@dixienet.com>

I do believe a challenge has been accepted.

We have an opponent, and a GM. Do we have others?

missingjn@dixie-net.com 


-------------------------------------> From: Flykiller@aol.com
> Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 19:56:53 EDT
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>>Think you can handle that?
> Yes, I'd love to.
> 

DATA from Mr Roseberry's post:    [TML] Re: meduim navies

> 
> Initial Fleets for Lunion, Lanth, and Regina subsectors using
> "meduim navies".
> 
> Initial Fleets, Lunion subsector
> 
> Imperial Navy MCr 2,835,544.748
> 
> Wardn. MCr 55
> Smoug MCr 14700
> Adabicci MCr 322,000
> Zaibon MCr 148.75
> Spirelle MCr 312,375
> Derchon MCr 36,225
> Lunion MCr 3,080,000
> Shirine MCr 252
> Harvoset MCr 14175
> Perisephone MCr 28350
> Capon MCr 17,850
> Strouden MCr 3,465,000
> 
> This is peace time budget x10, using "meduim navies".
> Note: I'm using supp3 to start, so Wardn is independent.
> 
> Initial Fleets, Lanth subsector
> 
> Imperial Navy MCr 68668.554
> 
> Extolay MCr 40250
> Lanth MCr 220.5
> Dinom MCr 63
> Ghandi MCr 9.98
> Wypoc MCr 267.75
> Quopist MCr 1592.5
> Treece MCr 105,000
> Ivendo MCr 332.5
> Tureded MCr 178.5
> Equus MCr 66500
> Rhise MCr 31.85
> Icetina MCr 126
> Cogri MCr 1785
> Skull MCr 12600
> 
> This is peace time budget x10, using "meduim navies".
> 
> Initial Fleets, Regina subsector
> 
> Imperial Navy MCr 3,957,399.439
> 
> Efate MCr 3,220,000
> Alell MCr 241,500
> Yres MCr 13650
> Menorb MCr 603,750
> Uakye MCr 120.75
> Boughne MCr 189
> Hefry MCr 10.5
> Ruie. MCr 9,100,000
> Jenghe MCr 1365
> Regina MCr 422,625
> Feri MCr 409,500
> Roup MCr 1,260,000
> Yori MCr 23275
> Dentus MCr 157.5
> Wochiers MCr 294,000
> Yorbund MCr 35
> Moughas MCr 308
> Rethe MCr 6,300,000
> Inthe MCr 18200
> Shionthy MCr 20825
> 
> This is peace time budget x10, using "meduim navies".
> 
> Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches
> 








From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 14:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 13:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] vilis landgrab
Message-ID: <200208052005.MDF03952@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mark Urbin is handling Garda-Vilis.  However, I'm looking at 
systems that will probably be trading/communicating with 
Vilis, and I see 

Vilis       Kwon grabs this
Garda-Vilis Urbin grabs this

Choleosti
Arkadia
Stellatio
Frenzie

There seem to be plenty of TNS entries about some of these 
systems, especially during the FFW.  Let me finish Vilis, and 
I'm probably going to branch out over the other four in the 
list.  Unless someone else has done them...
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 14:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Mon Aug  5 13:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] dangerous children
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15DA@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Are you referring to Winnie?  Or is there <shudder> another Spofulam child out there that I'm unaware of?
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: Leslie Bates [mailto:lesbates@minn.net]
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 6:46 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] dangerous children


JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 30 Jul 2002 12:50:01 -0500, Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net>

>>Oh, by the way, was anyone aware that Ditzie has a twin sister? <big evil
>>grin>
>
>A twin sister?  Who survived?

In 101 Corporations, page 28:

	"Little is known about the inner workings of the Famille', although the
dark rumours of inbreeding with eugenic intent, rampant substance abuse,
and child labour are so prevalent they may be at least partly true (and the
High Energy and Starship Weapons Divisions are both led by children of
dubious stability).



==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 14:20:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Mon Aug  5 13:20:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Landgrab claim: Asmodeus/Querion
References: <3D4C1132.3C2572D6@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <001e01c23cbd$c1f77220$1700a8c0@imogen>

I'd like to claim Asmodeus/Querion.

Okay, I know I haven't finished Efate/Regina yet but I do have  a
lot written for  Efate  already  ...  so  I'll  be  posting  that
soon-ish.  Its just that I've  been  looking  for  a  good  Skaro
look-alike and I think Asmodeus would fit nicely (nuke war  ended
in 1005)!

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 14:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Mon Aug  5 13:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Aircraft carrier displacement
In-Reply-To: <20020805183051.18082.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <200208051705.KAA00273@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020805152430.00a5b340@minn.net>

Daniel Tackett <haegen2001@yahoo.com>
 wrote:
> Would anyone here know how many displacement tons a
>U.S. aircraft carrier like the "Enterprise" would be?
>Needing to get a visualization in my head for an
>interplanetary structure in my game. 
>Any help is appreciated.
>thanks.

From Jane's Pocket Book of Major Warships (1973):

U.S.S. Enterprise

75,700 Standard

89,600 Full Load

Hope this helps.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 14:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Mon Aug  5 13:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] dangerous children
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15DA@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020805152802.00a5e9f0@minn.net>

"DeGraff, Jesse" <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> wrote:

>Are you referring to Winnie?  Or is there <shudder> another Spofulam child
out there that I'm unaware of?
>Jesse

>>On Tue, 30 Jul 2002 12:50:01 -0500, Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net>
>
>>>Oh, by the way, was anyone aware that Ditzie has a twin sister? <big evil
>>>grin>

I haven't heard of Winnie.

I only made a Piperesque mention of the twin in Part Three of FiHP.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 14:30:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Aug  5 13:30:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Landgrab
In-Reply-To: <001e01c23cbd$c1f77220$1700a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <B9742E4B.68481%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

For al of you who have posted your landgrabs to the web, please check
http://spinwardmarches.com to see if you are linked.  If not, please drop m=
e
an email with the URL.

Thanks, Tod

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 14:32:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Mon Aug  5 13:32:09 2002
Subject: [TML] dangerous children
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15DB@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Winnie's in the "Famille Spofulam Winter 97" catalog .pdf available at the BITS site.  She's also been mentioned at least one other time that know of in the Type J Racing Yacht design posted to the TML by Ian.

Jesse
Haven't read Piper ;)


-----Original Message-----
From: Leslie Bates [mailto:lesbates@minn.net]
Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 1:28 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] dangerous children


"DeGraff, Jesse" <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> wrote:

>Are you referring to Winnie?  Or is there <shudder> another Spofulam child
out there that I'm unaware of?
>Jesse

>>On Tue, 30 Jul 2002 12:50:01 -0500, Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net>
>
>>>Oh, by the way, was anyone aware that Ditzie has a twin sister? <big evil
>>>grin>

I haven't heard of Winnie.

I only made a Piperesque mention of the twin in Part Three of FiHP.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
Message-ID: <200208052113.g75LD2w04199@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
>Subject: RE: [TML] Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"

  FWIW, a rider BatRon is 93+% riders to ~7% fighter
tonnage. Their role? (SMC, pps. 35-6)

  "Fighter Division: ... Fighters are used for long range
patrols and recon within a system, allows (sic) the carrier
advanced warning of enemy ... In addition, the fighters are
expected to hold the screen against enemy vessels until the
Riders are ready to begin* a battle".

  *they may not bother practicing much for the role "screen 
against enemy vessels until the surviving Riders are aboard
the tender/carrier and ready to Jump", as _those_ fighters 
will have executed their last mission :|

  Steven Hudson

...
>It is canon, Traveller has whopping big fleet carriers (not to mention the
>Tigress class BBs) which carry huge number of fighters.
>
>The imperium obviously believes they have a need for large numbers of
>fighters. AFAIK carrier squadrons are equated with cruiser squadrons (see
>Fighting Ships) and presumably carry out some of the same missions. Commerce
>raiding is possible but would you need a fleet carrier for that?
>
>So given that carrier squadrons exist if they are totally useless against
>other cruiser squadrons what would they be used for. I submit it could also
>mean that point defence systems are not as good as the navy would have us
>believe.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:23:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:23:22 2002
Subject: [TML] nuclear detonations in vaccuum
In-Reply-To: <152.119d95a9.2a7787fd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20805.135712.9K3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>  >>I'd like to see a discussion of nuclear weapons effects in a 
>  >>vaccuum.  since there's no blast then it seems to me that 
>  >>ablative or reflec for heat, and simple armor for radiation, 
>  >>should adequately deal with all but very close detonations.  
>  >>I wonder how much neutron irradiation it would take to 
>  >>embrittle a hull ....
>  >>
>  > 
>  >It's mostly "soft" x-rays.  Not thermal radiation.  You get 
>  >conversion to infrared only in an atmosphere (the nitrogen in 
>  >the air absorbs the x-rays, becoming the "fireball" and re-
>  >radiating at lower wavelengths.  During the Spartan ABM 
>  >design work, they found that x-rays couple much more 
>  >effectively with a metal bodied craft than the infrared does -
>  >the damage penetrates much deeper into the warhead.
>
> and what exactly is the nature of that damage?  did they do testing on any 
> kind of armor?  does enough radiation penetrate "regardless of armor" to 
> cause significant interior damage or personnel casualties?  when x-rays 
> couple with metal, does that mean the metal absorbs them?

The damage depends on *how much* energy is absorbed. Small amounts just
damage crystal structure a bit. Larger amounts cause heating. the
amounts from a *close* detonation deposit so much energy that the
material (metal, rock, water, air, whatever) flashes into plasma
*explosively*). 

The air absorbing x-rays and converting to a high energy plasma is what
cause the shock wave and thermal flash from a nuke inside an
atmosphere. 

Metal just absorbs more of the x-rays in a shorter distance. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:24:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:24:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
In-Reply-To: <20020730203333.87379.qmail@web20419.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20805.140900.3G8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>
>>1 5-gallon bucket, a bag of cement, some water and mixing time and a
>
>>rowboat have served wiseguys well for many decades now.
>>
>>All it requires is one East River.
>
> Weighted bodies dropped into water turn up with alarming frequency --
> alarming especially to the wiseguys who are trying to keep the body
> from being found.  We just had several turn up in a reservoir in
> California not long ago -- I guess it was last year.  This does
> remain a fair solution at all tech levels ("Og, you tie stone to foot
> of dead guy with vine.  I make raft."), but is not quite as sure as
> I'd like.  

There are a number of moderately simple ways that are "good enough"
*if* you don't expect anyone to come looking for the person. 

In that case, you can just use a bathtub, sharp knife and a meat
grinder. Flush away the evidence. Grinding up the bones is a *pain*,
but doable.

Use lots of bleach in the tub, and the toilet and try not to splash,
just in case.

If you've got an isolated area, and access to liquid nitrogen you can
produce liquid oxygen, and use that to cremate the body. 

In a pure oxygen atmosphere, even fresh meat and bone will burn quite
well. with LOX, you'll have to be careful not to cause an explosion.

Industrial strength hydrogen peroxide tends to dissolve flesh, but also
tends to explode on contact with things like blood.

Oh yeah. Time is an important factor. If there's no rush, you can do a
much better job, with far less mess.

Doh!

I wonder how well a body exposed to LN2 or LH2 would shatter when
struck? That'd be one way to reduce the body to a nice powder (or
"slush" after it thaws) for easy disposal. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:26:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:26:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
In-Reply-To: <200207311718.LTT06680@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20805.142332.0S0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> WriteFool says
>>From the standpoint of pure economic and management 
>>efficiency I would have to agree, but on the other hand by 
>>creating the traditions and institutional memory of never 
>>giving up on a case and instilling that in to each 
>>generation of policefolk, it might help foster a certain 
>>determination as well as giving some comfort to victims' 
>>families that everything can and will be done and 
>>their losses and justice will not be forgotten.
>
> I would imagine that such perseverance, or lack thereof, 
> varies from planet to planet across the Imperium.  While they 
> might do things like this on, say, Regina, who can say how 
> they run things - even at the Imperial capital.
>
> In Washington, D.C., the homicide department is in complete 
> shambles.  I sometimes wonder if the powers that be intend 
> for it to be so.  Cases are lost, forgotten, misplaced...
>
> And the coroner's office is a complete joke.  It's a sore 
> point for the residents, but nothing, I repeat, nothing has 
> been done to remedy the situation.  

Of course not. The residents can't vote. 

Or did they at least get *local* elections a while back?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:28:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:28:21 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <200208052113.g75LD2w04199@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028582658.5758.ajackson@ping>

Steven Hudson writes:
> 
>   "Fighter Division: ... Fighters are used for long range
> patrols and recon within a system, allows (sic) the carrier
> advanced warning of enemy ... In addition, the fighters are
> expected to hold the screen against enemy vessels until the
> Riders are ready to begin* a battle".

Two problems:

1)  In space, it tends to be easier to simply tack a great big sensor on the
main ship.
2)  The fighters can't hold a screen if the capital ships can just ignore the
screen and charge the carriers.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPAEBKEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPAEBKEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
Message-ID: <p04330104b974a06d3f80@[198.123.22.180]>

At 5:30 PM +0800 8/5/02, Antony Farrell wrote:
>It is canon, Traveller has whopping big fleet carriers (not to mention the
>Tigress class BBs) which carry huge number of fighters.
>
>The imperium obviously believes they have a need for large numbers of
>fighters. AFAIK carrier squadrons are equated with cruiser squadrons (see
>Fighting Ships) and presumably carry out some of the same missions. Commerce
>raiding is possible but would you need a fleet carrier for that?


Fighters are useful for point defense, but they have other uses.  One 
is tracking down smaller targets and ground support.  (Sure a meson 
gun makes a big "boom", but if you want to stop dozen or hundreds of 
little scattered ships or if you want to support troops on the 
ground, then fighters become a lot more useful).  Another is sensor 
pickets (esp if allow them to set up a sensor net to form one big 
array).  There was at least one more use I've forgotten....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805084630.018ca4e0@192.168.0.1>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804192145.024cac00@192.168.0.1> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020804192145.024cac00@192.168.0.1> <20020805191412.A25687@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020805084630.018ca4e0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020806074241.A27684@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> Kwai Ching is an interesting example.  They really have no choice
> but to produce the majority, if not all of their food.

That's true for basically *all* vacuum worlds with more than a few
million people.  As I said, Kwai Ching is *above* the median trade
level per capita.


> They are not part of an established trading federation, and their imports 
> are spotty at best due to ethically challenged merchant activity.
> (that's according to GT: Behind the Claw, and the example Tim is using.)

I'm not using BTC at all -- I'm using the trade rules in Far Trader.

Most plaets have *less* ability to trade for food.


> To produce a variety of food that would keep a large population
> happy requires a large amount of space, water and energy.

That's true regardless of whether the world has air or not.


> If you have bulk traders making a regular run through the system,
> and there is an Agricultural planet on their loop, the rockball can
> get a wide variety of foodstuffs without the large markup.

Try running the numbers to see if it works.  You might be surprised.
Don't underestimate how much it costs to ship food for a few billion
people.


> If it's not economically viable to produce 100% of the food locally,
> why should they do it?

That's the whole point -- it *is* economically viable to produce 100%
of the food locally.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1028582658.5758.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1028582658.5758.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <p04330105b974a1517539@[198.123.22.180]>

At 2:24 PM -0700 8/5/02, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Steven Hudson writes:
>>
>>    "Fighter Division: ... Fighters are used for long range
>>  patrols and recon within a system, allows (sic) the carrier
>>  advanced warning of enemy ... In addition, the fighters are
>>  expected to hold the screen against enemy vessels until the
>>  Riders are ready to begin* a battle".
>
>Two problems:
>
>1)  In space, it tends to be easier to simply tack a great big sensor on the
>main ship.

Well, that isn't in the base GT rules or in CT (or in MT, I'm not 
sure).  The proposed rules I've seen limit sensor size to ship size 
(so if you make your ship effectively bigger, then your own 
dectection is easier) but if you are going to modify the rules, then 
you should be able to allow scattered fighters to relay their data 
and set up a virtual array much bigger than any a ship can carry....

>2)  The fighters can't hold a screen if the capital ships can just ignore the
>screen and charge the carriers.


Yeah, they can serve as point defense (ie a screen against missiles)
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:56:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:56:13 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <p04330105b974a1517539@[198.123.22.180]>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028584537.113.ajackson@ping>

David P. Summers writes:

> Well, that isn't in the base GT rules or in CT (or in MT, I'm not 
> sure).

Well, neither have much in the way of larger sensors.  Still, even in GT you'll
need 25 cockpit bridges to get the sensor capabilities of one command bridge.

> Yeah, they can serve as point defense (ie a screen against missiles)

Well, true but not the normal meaning of 'screen', since that does nothing to
prevent the larger ship from getting within energy weapons range.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:57:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:57:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805090845.01831e50@192.168.0.1>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804223247.0237e008@192.168.0.1> <20020804232303.7408.33320.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <006701c23c1f$2baff600$195d8690@computer> <5.1.0.14.0.20020804223247.0237e008@192.168.0.1> <20020805202103.D25687@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020805090845.01831e50@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020806075541.B27684@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> It was determined that published trade rules didn't fit the big picture.

That may be so, but they are the official rules for the official
universe.  I agree that variant rules may give variant results.


> Large bulk traders were needed in core sectors to make it work.

They are needed under the existing rules, too.

Either way, it takes on the order of a billion dtons per year to feed
an average pop-9 world to a modern level.  That's a few million-dton
superfreighters arriving every day.  I haven't seen any canonical
sources that suggest such a level of shipping.


> I agree with you in places like the Marches, or even more frontier
> settings.

I'm basing my figures mostly on the core sectors.  If you don't like
the results, then publish your own trade rules.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
References: <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Of course, point defense can be greatly upgraded with fairly little 
> effort to achieve much better results against missiles,

It can?  When I tried, I got virtually negligible improvements.


> If nothing else, a short range countermissile capable of taking out
> an incoming missile is probably less than 10% of the weight and cost
> of the incoming missile.

You can make a countermissile a lot cheaper than the published
standard missile (yes, about 10%), but the problem is that you can
make the ship-killing missiles much cheaper and smaller as well (for
the same effectiveness).  Multiple-warhead missiles are extremely
difficult to stop in their terminal phase.

You would also have to modify the space combat rules to allow
point-defense missile fire.  Then there's the headache of missiles
with their own point defense against countermissiles :-/


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028585608.7515.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> Anthony Jackson wrote:
> > Of course, point defense can be greatly upgraded with fairly little 
> > effort to achieve much better results against missiles,
> 
> It can?  When I tried, I got virtually negligible improvements.

Sorry.  You first have to throw out the ROF modifiers in GT and use standard
GURPS rules ;)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
In-Reply-To: <3D4E5E7E.26225.7DEF71@localhost>
References: <137.122edd2d.2a7ee774@aol.com> <B972E6BF.67D85%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <3D4E5E7E.26225.7DEF71@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020806081755.D27684@freeman.little-possums.net>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> And for those who have money to burn:
> 
> TL Guidance Vol Mass AV MCr   G-Turns Warhead Hits Damage  Range Comm
> 15 Full-Ind 7   7.32 3  5.232 4/4     500ktx2 2D6  1/25-79 0     10L
[...]
> Probably way too expensive for most people, but it should ruin the day 
> of any smaller vessel that runs into a field of them.

Does this one last longer than 12 hours?  At 5 MCr a pop, it seems
like they would have to ruin a *lot* of people's days to be
worthwhile.

Not something you can just emplace by the thousands in traffic lanes
in the hope that one or two hit, and too slow to get in range if you
did.  It looks like it would only be useful in or near planetary
orbit.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:22:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:22:06 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020801093246.4c070802@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20805.143023.3i7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 04:07 PM 7/31/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>>"Glenn M. Goffin" says
>>>So, John, are you a sociopath in real life, or do you just 
>>>play one in RPGs?
>>
>>In real life, the Army saw fit to conduct a psychological 
>>evaluation, and on the commander's recommendation, I was sent 
>>to sniper school.  Later, when I became a software 
>>consultant...
>
> Hey!  They gave me a pysch eval before I was assigned to sniper school!
> Evidently, I was just sociopathic enough for their purposes...

And we love you for it. <g>

Which reminds me:

http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp08042002.html

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1028585608.7515.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1028585608.7515.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020806083856.E27684@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Sorry.  You first have to throw out the ROF modifiers in GT and use
> standard GURPS rules ;)

Ah, that makes more sense :)

Even so, have you considered the problem of loss of accuracy with
higher-RoF weapons of the same overall size?

If you allow Vehicles-designed missiles, a typical target might be a
Size -1 object closing at 300 mi/s with 12 gee maneuverability and
effective DR 600.  A missile rack would launch up to 20 of these in a
salvo.  Depending upon whether your opponent respects the Imperial
Rules of War, they may or may not have nuclear warheads.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
In-Reply-To: <20020806081755.D27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3D4E5E7E.26225.7DEF71@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D4FA627.26089.39E708@localhost>

On 6 Aug 2002 at 8:17, Timothy Little wrote:

> Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > And for those who have money to burn:
> > 
> > TL Guidance Vol Mass AV MCr   G-Turns Warhead Hits Damage  Range Comm
> > 15 Full-Ind 7   7.32 3  5.232 4/4     500ktx2 2D6  1/25-79 0     10L
> [...]
> > Probably way too expensive for most people, but it should ruin the day 
> > of any smaller vessel that runs into a field of them.
> 
> Does this one last longer than 12 hours?  At 5 MCr a pop, it seems
> like they would have to ruin a *lot* of people's days to be
> worthwhile.

No, I forgot to mention that this model can run the sensor and brain 
for 7 days.
 
> Not something you can just emplace by the thousands in traffic lanes
> in the hope that one or two hit, and too slow to get in range if you
> did.  It looks like it would only be useful in or near planetary
> orbit.

That's the real problem with mines, I guess. For more range you'd 
probably be best off just dumping lots of fully-independant missiles, 
but they won't have much endurance. The only way round this is to put a 
fusion plant in, and they're fairly big by missile standards - FF&S 
PEMS arrays use an annoying amount of power.

Perhaps a CAPTOR style sensor platform with a number of small missiles 
on board would be a workable comprimise, though it'd start getting 
expensive real quick, and it wouldn't be long before most design 
committees turned it into a small battle-station by adding point 
defence, etc. I'm sure.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:45:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:45:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Astronomy Boffin Question
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEKAIKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020805110124.358f5e36@pop.mindspring.com>

At 10:27 PM 8/4/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>How big can a rocky asteroid be and still be irregular?

At a guess, about 100 miles diameter.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:46:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:46:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEKFEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <m3y9bndi8f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020805112347.358f6ef0@pop.mindspring.com>

At 01:07 PM 8/4/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>This brings up an interesting point. Does it go the other way too? Most U.S.
>soldiers had a good month between the time they left CONUS and the time they
>hit the lines in Europe, even during the most active time of the war. Today
>soldiers in Georgia can be in a war zone in less than 48 hours. Does this
>also contribute to PTSD? How does it effect their combat readiness.

It leads to more stateside training and readiness drills.  I took part in
REFORGER 85 (REdeployment of FORces to GERmany, and exercise where troops
were airlifted to depots in Europe where vehicles and heavy gear were
waiting for us.. all we brought along was personal kit.)  In preparation
for this, we spent a great deal of time going over things like loading
drills, NBC warfare, squad tactics and the like.  There was no assumption
that we'd have time to train before entering combat.

>ObTrav: This would not be a problem for interstellar troops, since minimum
>travel time is a week. Maximum travel time could be much higher. (Which is
>why I especially have a problem with GT designs which use bunkrooms.) Could
>a really large troop transport incorporate a habitat module to use as a
>training area? It strikes me that a holoventure module might work really
>well for battledress units and vehicle drivers (tank, fighter, etc.) but
>that regular troops will need more room to practice small unit tactics,
>unless the holoventure studios work as good as ST holodecks.

The designs in Ground Forces include firing ranges and other small training
areas, but as you say, the troops could be in cramped quarters for a good
time.  Which could be an invitation for more adventures.  This was partly
inspired by a Bill Maudlin cartoon showing troops in bunks stacked four
high with no room to breath, and the First Sergeant standing there saying
"Look, th' schedule calls for calisthenics, so we're gonna start with the
left eyebrow..."

Here's a fun game to play if you have Ground Forces.  You are a Force
Lieutenant assigned to a Caen-class ship.  You are lying in your bunk, and
feeling a bit peckish.  How do you get to the officer's mess?  :)
-- 

Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.
gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html

Author of GT: Ground Forces                               

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:47:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:47:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <008901c23c6c$e2004c00$be09bd50@martinjd>
References: <20020804173620.8351.57196.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <006901c23c1f$2dd85440$195d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020805114848.35e72ae8@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:42 AM 8/5/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>>
>> Hmm. I've always wanted to run an Arbellatra vs Gustus game. Maybe I
>should
>> actually do it.
>
>You should. Then I can play

Dibs Arbellatra.  One of my favorite people in Traveller history.  Someday
I'd love to write a sourcebook for the Arbellatra Regency.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:49:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:49:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
In-Reply-To: <138.1260f901.2a7f16a9@cs.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020805115125.30d74ca4@pop.mindspring.com>

At 07:45 PM 8/4/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>Speaking of which, does anyone know where I might find a good-condition copy 
>of FTL:2448? I've looked all over the place, both online and in RL and I've 
>never been able to find anything. I've got everything else TriTac's put out 
>and I'm wanting to complete my collection.

Try putting a "wanted" message up on rec.games.frp.marketplace
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:50:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:50:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Warghame ----> Nightmare?
In-Reply-To: <194.af51b03.2a7f3c97@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020805114147.35df3ff4@pop.mindspring.com>

At 10:27 PM 8/4/2002 EDT, you wrote:
>>But seriously, the comm delay and limited intelligence turned a wargame into
>>a nightmare.
>
>Commo delays and limited intelligence are half the fun of a decent wargame. 
>I love large, multiplayer exercises -- the umpires don't have to insert the 
>"fog of war" because the players provide it themselves!

This is why part of the SALUTE intelligence report is "unit." Keeping track
of who is where is vital.  During our massive 5FW game, I was only sure of
the psotion and status of 1st Assault Fleet, which I was personnaly
commanding.  I had no idea if my other fleets were reaching their
objectives, dead, or exceeding their mission orders.  It turns out that one
of my fleets had encountered the Imperial 212th and 100th fleets and been
mauled, but the enocunter led to the Imperial side believing that the
Jewell attack was a feint, and that my main goal was Rhylanor.  Gave me a
few extra months.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
Message-ID: <200208052309.g75N9Gw20035@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
...
>>   "Fighter Division: ... Fighters are used for long range
>> patrols and recon within a system, allows (sic) the carrier
>> advanced warning of enemy ... In addition, the fighters are
>> expected to hold the screen against enemy vessels until the
>> Riders are ready to begin* a battle".
>
>Two problems:
>1)  In space, it tends to be easier to simply tack a great big sensor on the
>main ship.
>2)  The fighters can't hold a screen if the capital ships can just ignore the
>screen and charge the carriers.
  
  Understood; in both cases it's the limitation of the rules system
at work. OTOH, point one could be addressed by making the fighters
into serious endurance / high speed platforms for sustained in-
system ops, but that's getting them into gunship tonnages, and you
might as well make them Jump capable for survivability.

  As MJD indicated recently, point two can only be addressed fully
in a hex-based Trav navals game.

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:11:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:11:32 2002
Subject: [TML] The cloak
Message-ID: <memo.630916@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <200208051944.MDF01639@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
John T. Kwonjtkwon@jtkgroup.comJohn T. KwonIn article 
<200208051944.MDF01639@vmms1.verisignmail.com>, jtkwon@jtkgroup.com (John 
T. Kwon) wrote:

> "Mark Urbin" asks
> >How common are they in your Traveller universe?
> 
> Fairly common.  I happen to own one in RL (dark brown) that 
> is fairly short (just past the waist).
> 
> Hate to say it, though, it doesn't blend in in RL.  

I too wear a cloak - nice big warm brown floor-length one. It's an Arab 
desert cloak I picked up in Tunisia, actually. It is so warm I have been 
outside at 0500 in March, frost & snow on the ground, and the only cold 
bit was my nose...

But I've always been fond of cloaks, and that's only the latest in a 
succession... the first one was purchased when I was about 12.

Once walked across the local town square and heard someone laughing. 
Looked round, a fellow was pointing... but as he had a full Mohican, dyed 
pale blue, I'm not quite sure why he wanted to laugh at someone else's 
choice of attire :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.

(Oh yes, and it used to spook the army - I took one of my big cloaks out 
in the field, rather than bedroll & basha.)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020805114848.35e72ae8@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <008901c23c6c$e2004c00$be09bd50@martinjd>
 <20020804173620.8351.57196.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <006901c23c1f$2dd85440$195d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020805181643.00a65470@minn.net>

At 11:48 AM 8/5/2002, Mr. Penguin Fancier wrote:
>At 11:42 AM 8/5/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>>>
>>> Hmm. I've always wanted to run an Arbellatra vs Gustus game. Maybe I
>>should
>>> actually do it.
>>
>>You should. Then I can play
>
>Dibs Arbellatra.  One of my favorite people in Traveller history.  Someday
>I'd love to write a sourcebook for the Arbellatra Regency.

I'll buy one.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1028584537.113.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1028584537.113.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <p04330106b974b83fd6de@[198.123.22.180]>

At 2:55 PM -0700 8/5/02, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>David P. Summers writes:
>
>>  Well, that isn't in the base GT rules or in CT (or in MT, I'm not
>>  sure).
>
>Well, neither have much in the way of larger sensors.  Still, even 
>in GT you'll
>need 25 cockpit bridges to get the sensor capabilities of one command bridge.

I'm not sure how you are adding these....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:26:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:26:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
References: <20805.140900.3G8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3D4F094F.3020905@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> I wonder how well a body exposed to LN2 or LH2 would shatter when
> struck? That'd be one way to reduce the body to a nice powder (or
> "slush" after it thaws) for easy disposal. 

Probably pretty well.

We used to do that with, erm, various rodentia parts; if you're looking 
for DNA adducts you have to keep 'em cold or they degrade.

I hated doing it though, grinding stuff in LN2 in a ceramic mortar and 
pestle makes this *awful* fingernails-on-chalkboard noises.

Take a LOT of LN2, though.

An industrial meat grinder would do far better and quicker.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
Message-ID: <OFF3DF5114.9F0FA072-ONCA256C0C.0080B0D9@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Mark asked:
>What is the TL of  the Imperium & the Terran Confederation in the Year 
1000 
>setting of T20?

15. The answer is always 15.

;-)  ;-)

(It's Twoday, and the jokes aren't getting any better. It's gonna be a 
l-o-n-g week...)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:31:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:31:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Low-tech naval forces
Message-ID: <200208052330.MDN00014@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Working on the Vilis landgrab, and it occurred to me that 
Vilis would be the source of a lot of the subsector navy - 
the Imperial Navy keeps its ships at Frenzie, the subsector 
capital, but Vilis has a lot more resources - it probably 
supplies a lot of the subsector navy.  The only drawback is 
its low tech level.

It is possible to build something that would satisfy what I 
see as the probable needs of a backwater subsector - if you 
assume that the Imperial Navy is more concerned with the 
Federation of Arden and the Zhodani threat (not to mention 
the occasional Sword World problem).

The major reason that Vilis and Frenzie, and the worlds 
nearby, would welcome Imperial forces is that it allows the 
consolidation of their own local area.  The Imperials get a 
forward base of operations and a ready supply of bodies to 
volunteer for service (billions and billions).

That leaves the local forces to conduct local show the flag 
ops, space control over a small set of systems along a Jump-1 
route from Vilis to Frenzie, and anti-piracy patrol.  Even a 
TL 9 ship should be able to conduct basic anti-piracy patrol 
against the typical "ethically challenged" merchant.

These forces would not last in a stand-up battle against 
major forces such as the Zhodani, but they could exist in 
large enough numbers to make piracy a difficult proposition.

Just working on a small carrier (9000 ton) with 200 fighters, 
and a few small escorts for work around the systems near 
Vilis and Frenzie.  Quite a change from massive TL15 ships 
sporting T meson guns.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
Message-ID: <OF2F3C29E3.8D5E3297-ONCA256C0C.0081279C@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Martin replied:
>>What is the TL of  the Imperium & the Terran Confederation in the
>>Year 1000 setting of T20?
>
>The Impeirum is TL 14 mostly, with Tl 15 just creeping in over the last 
few
>years.

OK, this one's got me puzzled, I'll give a serious reply now.

By the time 1105 rocks around, the Imperium averages out at TL 13 (MT's 
"Average Stellar"), with many TL 14 and quite a few TL 15's ("High 
Stellar").

Given that, I would have thought that in 1100 the Imperium would be at TL 
_13_, with "TL 14 just creeping in"?

What TL is the original AHL (built c.1005)? I thought it was built using 
the best tech at the time, and thus fitted out at TL 14 (with j-5 
drives)??
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
In-Reply-To: <OF2F3C29E3.8D5E3297-ONCA256C0C.0081279C@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <3D4FB7E8.30830.7F429A@localhost>

On 6 Aug 2002 at 9:38, david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:

> Dear Folks -
> 
> Martin replied:
> >>What is the TL of  the Imperium & the Terran Confederation in the
> >>Year 1000 setting of T20?
> >
> >The Impeirum is TL 14 mostly, with Tl 15 just creeping in over the last 
> few
> >years.
> 
> OK, this one's got me puzzled, I'll give a serious reply now.
> 
> By the time 1105 rocks around, the Imperium averages out at TL 13 (MT's 
> "Average Stellar"), with many TL 14 and quite a few TL 15's ("High 
> Stellar").
> 
> Given that, I would have thought that in 1100 the Imperium would be at TL 
> _13_, with "TL 14 just creeping in"?
> 
> What TL is the original AHL (built c.1005)? I thought it was built using 
> the best tech at the time, and thus fitted out at TL 14 (with j-5 
> drives)??

IIRC the Imperial peak TL just nudged over into TL15 during the Rim 
War, which ended in 1009 (I think).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:57:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:57:04 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>

Hi Tim,
   For what it is worth, I started to respond to this thread earlier before 
I had to go to bed and get some sleep...

If you could, so I can check your reasoning:

List all of the modifiers to gunner's skill you are using in a 
missile/antimissile engagement.

Example:

Skill 12 laser gunner
Accuracy 32 Laser platform
Gunnery +6 to hit program

Range penalty -39
ROF bonus +10
Point Defense phase bonus +10
Active Sensor lock +2

Total modifiers:
12+ 32 + 6 + 10 + 10 + 2 - 39 = 72-39 = 32

Rolling an average of 10 on 3d6 means that you will have succeeded by 
22.  Number of missiles successfully engaged in that round will be equal to 
round((22-3)/2,0) or 19/2 rounded up or 10.

Please note that second edition rules for TRAVELLER have bumped up the ROF 
bonus from their current levels to current levels +3.  Also note that 
instead of rolling for each missile being engaged by point defense, you 
roll only once for the entire "turn".  Thus, in the example given above, 
the gunner with skill 12 is engaging a group of incoming missiles *will* 
engage the incoming group and nail 10 missiles.  If less than 10 are 
inbound, that single gunner stops it cold.  If more than 10 are inbound, he 
stops 10 and the rest hit.

                               Hal


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:58:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:58:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
In-Reply-To: <20020805125303.24699.70318.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020805125303.24699.70318.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <j14uku0gpb04hc31qnlhbjes50l610n0t8@4ax.com>

On Mon, 05 Aug 2002 05:53:03 -0700, john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:

>----- Original Message -----
>From: Hunter Gordon <trav@RPGRealms.com>
>Date: Sunday, August 4, 2002 11:45 am
>Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)

 
>> On 8/4/2002 at 4:21 PM Antony Farrell wrote:
 
>> >Was that spam and eggs
>> >or spam, spam egs and spam?
 
>> Ok gotta keep it on topic!
 
>> Pardons if this has actually been covered previously.
 
>> So does SPAM survive the Rule of Man, the Long Night and into the 
>> Third Imperium? If so, is it just a Solomani thing, or have the 
>> Vilani and others come to enjoy this uniquely Terran... ummm .... 
>> stuff? I'm just picturing a group of adventurers finding an old 
>> Rule of Man cache, stockpiled with cans of good old SPAM!

>Ah, you should have saved that question for a Newbie Essay [tm]! ;-)

>Actually, it's quite plausible that SPAM was a significant factor in the 
>Solomanification of former Vilani worlds.  To wit:

>1.  SPAM would likely be included in relief aid to former Vilani worlds 
>ravaged by Terran-introduced pandemics.
>2.  Given that SPAM does not require processing by shugiili, and that 
>SPAM has a relatively long shelf life ("long" in a geological sense, 
>that is), it would go far in breaking the power of the shugiili in 
>Vilani society.
>3.  Add to these factors the relative conservatism of Vilani culture and 
>you find that, once SPAM was introduced on former Vilani-ruled worlds, 
>it tended to remain a staple of the diet on those worlds, thus ensuring 
>that SPAM would continue to be consumed (if not necessarily enjoyed) up 
>into M:1100.
>4.  Until such time as the fine folks at Hormel licensed the production 
>of SPAM on worlds other than Earth, the Terrans would be the only source 
>of this staple, thus economically binding the former Vilani worlds 
>closer to Terra.  Even after SPAM production began on worlds other than 
>Earth, genuine Terran SPAM was held to be superior, commanding premium 
>prices.  This coopted Sharushiid into the ruling SPAM consortium.
>5.  We can thus also see that the Solomani Rim War, with its focus on 
>the capture of Terra, was driven by the desire to control the original 
>point source of SPAM.

>QED. ;-)

>Hmmm.  Perhaps I should write up Hormel Foods as a megacorp using the 
>Universal Corporate Profile from _101 Corporations_....

Do it!

You might want to consider redacting this thread and sending it to Hormel
for giggles - who knows; if they research it, we might gain a couple of new
fans! :)

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:06:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:06:05 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020806083856.E27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028592330.6838.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> Anthony Jackson wrote:
> > Sorry.  You first have to throw out the ROF modifiers in GT and use
> > standard GURPS rules ;)
> 
> Ah, that makes more sense :)
> 
> Even so, have you considered the problem of loss of accuracy with
> higher-RoF weapons of the same overall size?
> 
> If you allow Vehicles-designed missiles, a typical target might be a
> Size -1 object closing at 300 mi/s with 12 gee maneuverability and
> effective DR 600.  A missile rack would launch up to 20 of these in a
> salvo.  Depending upon whether your opponent respects the Imperial
> Rules of War, they may or may not have nuclear warheads.

Ok, that's reasonable.  Now, let's look at a point defense system:

36 megajoule x-ray laser, ROF 8*, compact.  2.0 T, 80 cf, $280k.  Range 7,700
miles, Acc 29
Full stabilization: 0.2T, 8 cf, $40k
9 x rE cell, good for 50 shots: 0.09T, $90k
Dedicated Macroframe: 0.25T, $50k, complexity 11
Targeting +12: $512k (but probably gets a bulk discoute)
Assume gunner skill is 14.  Total effective skill, if aiming for 4 seconds
before firing a burst, is 43 (and a miss by 1 hits, so call it 44).  Note that
there are several different calculations of Acc in space combat (Vehicles and
Space 3e both have different systems), all of which disagree; with the Vehicles
system beam weapons in space have no Acc cap, effective skill would be 55, and
hitting is no challenge.  That's probably the most realistic one, too).

The missile is being fired at one second before impact (300 mile range, +300
miles for velocity, we'll ignore this making no sense) and the range penalty is
34, -1 for size, so chance of hitting once is 9.  We can fire two bursts easily
enough; in fact, if we start firing a bit sooner we'll also get two rolls at 8-
and 4 rolls at 7-, which means the chance of leaking through is around 10%. 
Obviously, using the Vehicles acc rule, the hit roll is 20 or less, and we
might as well drop to single shot with 1 turn of aiming, which means 20 seconds
before impact (effective range 6600) there's still a 50% chance of hitting, and
your single launcher kills an average 8 missiles before impact.

Hm...that's actually worse than I realized.  Oh well, if they send a really big
swarm of missiles at you simply dump a canister round in front of them.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:07:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:07:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805085604.018d7340@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAELOEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>It is canon, Traveller has whopping big fleet carriers (not to mention the
>Tigress class BBs) which carry huge number of fighters.
>
>The imperium obviously believes they have a need for large numbers of
>fighters. AFAIK carrier squadrons are equated with cruiser squadrons (see
>Fighting Ships) and presumably carry out some of the same missions.
Commerce
>raiding is possible but would you need a fleet carrier for that?

How about fighters are best for use against other fighters? If you are using
fighter for a multitude of missions, planetary support, SDB hunting, as
widely dispersed sensor pickets, etc. then maybe fighters are the best
weapon system to take out these other fighters.

Also while point defense may be very good against missiles I would expect a
fighter to have defenses of its own. For example mini-sand casters which
fire a small enough amount of sand to protect a fighter. Short range
missiles that can be used against missiles or rail guns (VRFGGs), which
might be effective against missiles. All of these weapons would be mere
fractions of a dton in size (If you use GURPS install them as modular grav
system components. They should be small enough to fit in wasted space in the
ship.) Use standard GURPS vehicle combat rules rather than space combat
rules for active defense by the fighter. This gives fighters an edge over
missiles against point defense, which would be a good reason why they are
still used.

If this is true then the best weapon against a fighter might very well be
another fighter. Use the space combat rules for long distance combat, but if
the fighters enter the same hex switch to short range weapons:

"He's too close for the main laser, Switching to guns!"

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:09:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:09:15 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
Message-ID: <OFF9549605.CA2D48D8-ONCA256C0C.008210E4@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Tim said:
>> You want to know what the results are of a 50 lb rock tossed via a
>> Trebuchet against a Far Trader's hull?  GURPS VEHICLES has rules for
>> it.
>
>Yes, this sort of very wide scope is what I like best about GURPS in
>general.  Given Traveller's range of planetary tech levels, this might
>easily come up in a game!

Have I got a deal for you! Follow the links at Beowulf Down to find 
low-tech weaponry! Go to Repair Bays ==> House Rules ==> Weapons Tables 
==> Archaic Missile Weapons ==> Torsion Projectile Weapons. All stats 
written for MT.

Oh, rats. No trebuchet. You'll have to make do with a catapult for now. 
Pen 7 out to 1 km, doing 5D damage. A Free Trader has AC 40 (HG "0" 
armour), so it will only scratch the paint, unless you hit a window (cloth 
AC 5, unless you prefer AC = TL = 8 for the trader). Important safety tip: 
Don't Forget To Close The Window Shutters. In return, my single "pathetic" 
TL 8 pulse laser (Weapons Tables ==> Starship Weapons) has Pen 79 out to 
50 km, doing 75D damage(**). Ouch! Hey, catapults burn really well, don't 
they? What fool made them out of WOOD??

Now where did I stash my old set of siege weapons - under the bed? Dig out 
that trebuchet and set it up, we'll want to fire some rocks at that old 
Beowulf I use as a towed target... ooh, nice hit! OK, I'll have to try 
translate the results into some more stats for you. ;-)

**Bill Hostman and the MT Players' Handbook will disagree with me here, 
saying the damage really should be _750_ dice. Yes, DICE, not hit points. 
However, I think that's really just a bit of overkill. Really. ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:10:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:10:46 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Landgrab of Vilis
Message-ID: <20020806000823.69621.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>

>If I'm doing Vilis, I think I had better do Garda-Vilis, 
>unless someone has already done that one.

That's Tanoose to you, apologist scum!

This message has been brought to you by the Tanoose Freedom League.

*********************************************
The sender of this message takes no responsibility for its content. 
The views expressed in this message are not necessarily the views of
the sender.  The sender has sent this message only as an
accomodation.

--Glenn

P.S.  You have Adventure 5 (I think): Broadsword, don't you?  

__________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:12:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:12:16 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <p04330106b974b83fd6de@[198.123.22.180]>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028592626.5758.ajackson@ping>

David P. Summers writes:
> 
> I'm not sure how you are adding these....

Cockpit bridge: nominal sensor range (PESA) 20,000
Command bridge: nominal sensor range (PESA) 100,000
Area covered by a given sensor: proportional to square of range.
Note that since, in space, stealth in GT is twice as effective as emissions
cloaking, there's really no point to useing the AESA, the PESA is almost always
more effective.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] vilis landgrab
References: <20020805215729.6122.21835.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <004401c23cde$cd707220$eeb18b90@computer>

> From: "John T. Kwon"
> Mark Urbin is handling Garda-Vilis.  However, I'm looking at
> systems that will probably be trading/communicating with
> Vilis, and I see
>
> Vilis       Kwon grabs this
> Garda-Vilis Urbin grabs this

I was considering doing a landgrab of Vilis a couple of months back. I got
as far as doing the "literature review" before getting bored.

The main thing that struck me was that Vilis, and Garda-Vilis, were settled
_before_ the establishment of the Imperium. In the case of Garda-Vilis, we
know that it was settled by Sword Worlders, and it seems likely that Vilis
was too.

There are also inconsistencies in the sources! One source gives much later
dates for settlement of the worlds. I was thinking that this might indicate
a secondary wave of immigration.

My suggestion would be to talk up the Sword Worldishness of these worlds.
There is absolutely no reason why culturally Sword Worlder worlds couldn't
exist within the Imperium, and it would give a rather clear flavour to the
societies.

I also had some thoughts about the factions of the Ine Givar that were
present, and their relationships with each other, the Tanoose Freedom
League, and Solomani supremicist groups, but I will spare you those.

Oh. One interesting thing is that Vilis isn't the capital of Vilis
subsector, while being the "capital" of a multi-world polity. Is there a
"Count of Vilis", as well as a "Duke of Vilis"?

You are welcome to either use or ignore any of these silly ideas.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <B9732F75.68182%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000001c23cde$c8128b60$6501a8c0@Darla>

While there is probably no way to completely mitigate the horrific
effects of war on the human psyche, I do presume that the Imperium will
use more advanced psychological techniques then now available for the
selection and retention of people in combat units.  I also assume that
the current degree of superstition and stigma associated with getting
mental health treatment will be a thing of the past in the 57th century
--  to the point where a combat veteran receiving treatment for PTSD (or
whatever we are calling it) before discharge will be no more remarkable
than getting medical treatment for physical wounds.

This would also mean that retirements or reassignments due to mental
health reasons would be as common as those due to injuries.  Presumably
combat vets would be offered the opportunity to re-muster into a support
unit, but some might refuse that..."Yeah, got a downcheck from the
Medical Officer when we debriefed from that job on Kinorb.  They offered
me a transfer to Logistics Command, but f**k that - I'm a soldier, not a
civilian wearing a uniform.  So, I took my walking papers and opened up
this place...what can I get for ya?"

In game terms, all this gets rolled up in the survival throw during
character generation.  IMTU, failing a survival throw by 4 or more kills
the character.  Failing by 3 or less represents anything that prevents
the character from continuing in that career.

TWB


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:19:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:19:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Taxes
In-Reply-To: <m33ctujfxj.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <000801c23cde$c9cdcff0$6501a8c0@Darla>

> >
> > IMTU the Imperium gets at 10% tariff on the value of all goods
> > shipped interstellar, plus 10% of the fares charged for interstellar
> > passage.  The Imperium does not levy any direct taxes on
> > individuals.
> 
> Those rates would make it _very_ difficult to make a profit as a free
> trader...
> 

That is true...but for MTU I wanted a Free Trader to be economically
marginal, and probably not practical unless you get an old (i.e. cheap)
ship and/or do some speculative trade on the side.  

TWB


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: 5 Aug 2002 - Freelance Traveller NOT Updated :(
Message-ID: <20020806002701.39745.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Freelance Traveller <editor@freelancetraveller.com>

>Due to an unexpected confluence of factors, mostly involving the 
>effect of weather on human activities (we lost power Friday evening
>when a tree took down some wires down the block during the storm,
>and I spent most of Saturday recovering from a fifteen-hour outage),


Yes, the weather here in Northern California has been quite
atrocious, too.  It was partly cloudy for nearly a week, and the
temperatures stayed below 70F almost all day.  I don't know how we
survived it.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:29:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:29:31 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
Message-ID: <OF83374F94.00E76973-ONCA256C0D.00020AC8@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

John wrote:
>> So does SPAM survive the Rule of Man, the Long Night and into the 
>> Third Imperium?
>
>Ah, you should have saved that question for a Newbie Essay [tm]! ;-)
>
>Actually, it's quite plausible that SPAM was a significant factor in the 
>Solomanification of former Vilani worlds.  To wit:

Brilliant exposition of the balance-of-power conferred to the Terrans by 
their all-conquering secret weapon, Spam! Keyboard kill! <applauds>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:31:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:31:12 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Large Scale Games, One Traveller, one WW3[Long]
Message-ID: <20020806003053.77072.qmail@web20414.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Shadowcat" <res053z0@gten.net>

>The second game was a traveller game at a previous Winter Wars 
>a couple of years after the historic Shadows tournament, which 
>was called Diplomatic Mission. This was a 6 hour game with 24 
>players that dealt with the reopening of trade to a redzoned world.
[deletion]
>This game lasted 6 very hectic hours, and had a grand total of 2 die

[deletion]
>I have seriously considered reconstructing the aspects of this 
>game for another convention, or even as an IRC game, but there 
>are too many problems for it to work as an IRC game.

It would make a great convention game, however.

--Glenn



__________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller
Message-ID: <20020806003342.77711.qmail@web20414.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net>
>
>(Across cyberspace, someone asks himself: What about processed
>cheese food products in the Third Imperium?)

They are a staple of starship life, for which the Vilani are
eternally grateful to the Solomani.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:41:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:41:15 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <20020806004033.73952.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>

>I've read a pretty persuasive argument by Charles Pellegrino 
>that outlines every reason why we should, even in the absence 
>of direct contact, assume that a starfaring species, a 
>species capable of manipulating the energies necessary to 
>span stellar distances, is a direct apocalyptic threat to our 
>existence, and that other species must make this same 

[deletion]

>Humans have a built-in cultural inhibition against 
>intraspecies murder - or else murder would be more common.  
>But make it an alien species, and we won't have that 
>inhibition by nature.  Any inhibition we have will come from 
>intellect and not instinct.  And any restraint we have will 
>be easy, perilously easy, to lose.  It will be difficult not 
>to fear them by instinct.

It's clearly part of Grandfather's purpose for humans that he
scattered us among the stars and encouraged the development of the
jump drive among the three major races at about the same time.  That
way, our first discoveries of other starfaring races would be of
other humans, and we would be somewhat less likely to try to
annihilate one another at once.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] vilis landgrab
Message-ID: <200208060043.MDP00769@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Alan Bradley" asks
>The main thing that struck me was that Vilis, and Garda-
>Vilis, were settled _before_ the establishment of the 
>Imperium. In the case of Garda-Vilis, we know that it was 
>settled by Sword Worlders, and it seems likely that Vilis
>was too.

Indeed.

>There are also inconsistencies in the sources! One source 
>gives much later dates for settlement of the worlds. I was 
>thinking that this might indicate a secondary wave of 
>immigration.

There's nothing wrong with multiple waves of settlement.

>My suggestion would be to talk up the Sword Worldishness of 
>these worlds.

I had the idea that they were Sword Worlders, but that the 
families that settled Vilis and Garda-Vilis left the 
homeworld completely - for reasons that remain speculative.  
But I would intimate that there is either a sense of being 
cast out or a sense of abandonment, depending on who tells 
the story.  The reasons that the settlers left may give some 
distinct difference between their culture and the one that 
was left behind.

>There is absolutely no reason why culturally Sword Worlder 
>worlds couldn't exist within the Imperium, and it would give 
>a rather clear flavour to the societies.
>

>I also had some thoughts about the factions of the Ine Givar 
>that were present, and their relationships with each other, 
>the Tanoose Freedom League, and Solomani supremicist groups, 
>but I will spare you those.
>

No, tell me more.

>Oh. One interesting thing is that Vilis isn't the capital of 
>Vilis subsector, while being the "capital" of a multi-world 
>polity. Is there a "Count of Vilis", as well as a "Duke of 
>Vilis"?
>

I have one obscure reference to a Duke of Vilis.  I think 
that Frenzie is the subsector capital because the Imperial 
Naval Base is there - the population there serves mainly as 
the service population for the naval base and yards.  And the 
Naval Base is there because it's a better strategic position 
than Vilis.  I would, however, believe that a lot of the 
local politics (less than the subsector, but entailing the 
little cluster within Jump-1) are dominated by Vilis.

________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020806000604.2646.31858.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <006201c23ce3$2b1f27a0$eeb18b90@computer>

> From: "Douglas E. Berry"
> Dibs Arbellatra.  One of my favorite people in Traveller history.

Unfortunately, if it were to happen, I would have to randomly assign people
to particular positions, and keep them anonymous, in order to ensure that
all communications passed through my hands.

I was thinking about how many players would be needed last night. 7 would be
minimum, 11 would be optimal, more would be too hard to manage.

It would also be a huge amount of work for me to do.

> Someday I'd love to write a sourcebook for the Arbellatra Regency.

And I'd love to read it!

I've done quite a bit of work on the Civil War period, but the problem I
kept running into was: why play in this period rather than in the 1100s? The
problem is that essentially, it's still the Imperium, with all the familiar
structures in place, with only rather modest changes.

It will be interesting to see how the T20 writers deal with this.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com






From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:48:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:48:28 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
Message-ID: <006301c23ce3$2bcea180$eeb18b90@computer>

> From: "Rupert Boleyn"
> IIRC the Imperial peak TL just nudged over into TL15 during the Rim
> War, which ended in 1009 (I think).

I would take TL 15 as being the equivalent of TL 16 in Milieu 1100:
something rather rare and wonderful.

TL 14 would be the equivalent of TL 15 - the TL of most modern military
gear. Depending on how long TL 14 had been around, a fair bit of older stuff
might be TL 14 too.

The counter mix from Invasion Earth might be worth studying. Images of it
may be available on the Far Futures website.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:51:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Barnett-Lewis)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:51:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra (was Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
References: <20020806000604.2646.31858.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D4F1C5A.95CD40DE@mailbag.com>

> At 11:48 AM 8/5/2002, Mr. Penguin Fancier wrote:
> >At 11:42 AM 8/5/2002 +0100, you wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hmm. I've always wanted to run an Arbellatra vs Gustus game. Maybe I
> >>should
> >>> actually do it.
> >>
> >>You should. Then I can play
> >
> >Dibs Arbellatra.  One of my favorite people in Traveller history.  Someday
> >I'd love to write a sourcebook for the Arbellatra Regency.
> 
> I'll buy one.

Doug's writing? I'll buy a dozen and give them all away. I can't think
of a better way to hook newbies into Traveller than the 3ICW as done by
him. That era gives everything anyone could want in a milleau. 

 
> Les


So when does it show on BITS/SJG/T20 new releases schedule? :'p I need
to pay for yet another partial cup of coffee!

William
-- 
You better watch out   What you wish for;
It better be worth it  So much to die for.
		       Courtney Love

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:52:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:52:19 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  The cloak
Message-ID: <20020806004801.59831.qmail@web20422.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Mark Urbin" <urbin@bigfoot.com>

>The favorite obsuring garment of the ages.  From knights hiding
>their armor & swords to Kent Allard striking terror in the hearts of
>evil doers...it has been part of popular fiction.
>
>How common are they in your Traveller universe?

ca. 1100s, they are in fashion at the Imperial court, and therefore
commonly worn by nobles everywhere.  Commoners only wear them when
the weather demands it.

--Glenn

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:54:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:54:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Astronomy Boffin Question
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020805110124.358f5e36@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0208060246490.363897-100000@svati>

On Mon, 5 Aug 2002, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

>At 10:27 PM 8/4/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>>How big can a rocky asteroid be and still be irregular?
>
>At a guess, about 100 miles diameter.

Actually, it is almost a factor of ten bigger. Both 1 Ceres
and 2 Pallas are slightly irregular at 960 x 932km and
570 x 525 x 482km respectively. 1000km is a fairly accurat upper
limit.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020805112347.358f6ef0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNGEMBEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>ObTrav: This would not be a problem for interstellar troops, since minimum
>>travel time is a week. Maximum travel time could be much higher. (Which is
>>why I especially have a problem with GT designs which use bunkrooms.)
Could
>>a really large troop transport incorporate a habitat module to use as a
>>training area? It strikes me that a holoventure module might work really
>>well for battledress units and vehicle drivers (tank, fighter, etc.) but
>>that regular troops will need more room to practice small unit tactics,
>>unless the holoventure studios work as good as ST holodecks.
>
>The designs in Ground Forces include firing ranges and other small training
>areas, but as you say, the troops could be in cramped quarters for a good
>time.  Which could be an invitation for more adventures.  This was partly
>inspired by a Bill Maudlin cartoon showing troops in bunks stacked four
>high with no room to breath, and the First Sergeant standing there saying
>"Look, th' schedule calls for calisthenics, so we're gonna start with the
>left eyebrow..."
>
>Here's a fun game to play if you have Ground Forces.  You are a Force
>Lieutenant assigned to a Caen-class ship.  You are lying in your bunk, and
>feeling a bit peckish.  How do you get to the officer's mess?  :)
>--
>
>Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.

Let me start by saying I absolutely love 95% of Ground Forces. I think the
colors great. I like everything from the unit structure information, to the
battledress designs, to the modular grav design system.

The one thing I can't stand is the ship designs. I loath the Caen. Among
other problems: Where are the navy ratings bunked? They certainly wouldn't
be with the Marines, not since the rest of canon says that they should be
living in staterooms, which I would suppose are separate from the officer's
staterooms. I could go on and on about the failings of the design, but I
don't want to rant.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
Message-ID: <OFEF72E03B.8084570D-ONCA256C0D.0005E3D1@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Rupert said:
>> Given that, I would have thought that in 1100 the Imperium would be at 
TL 
>> _13_, with "TL 14 just creeping in"?
>> 
>> What TL is the original AHL (built c.1005)? I thought it was built 
using 
>> the best tech at the time, and thus fitted out at TL 14 (with j-5 
>> drives)??
>
>IIRC the Imperial peak TL just nudged over into TL15 during the Rim 
>War, which ended in 1009 (I think).

Doh! Just looked at my Library Data, which has the Sol Rim War from 990 to 
1002.

Well, even if they've just reached TL 15, I think my original assertion 
still stands.

Oh, and yeah, I meant 1000, not 1100 (you knew that, right?).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <20020805082530.D24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEMCEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>> This gave them the necessary range, a single 10,000 mile GURPS
>> Traveller hex, to be effective weapons.
>
>Ah, that explains it.  You're using a two-dimensional map.  Yes, if
>you can restrict spacecraft to move in a plane, then I agree that
>space mines can be effective.  (But even then, only if you don't use
>the GURPS Traveller space combat system)
>
>
?????

What has that to do with anything. A det-laser mine that can fire across a
10,000 mile hex, can fire across a 10,000 sphere. After doing some searching
on my hard drive I find that actual range is more like 9 hexes, so in a
three dimensional game that would be a sphere 180,000 miles across. Of
course I remember you poo pooing the idea then too. (Note: some of your
comments, especially on robot controlled mines, computer programs and mines
with active sensors were right on.)
I think the best system we came up with was one where the mines were
controlled by either a controlling sensor platform or a ship. This makes the
mines smaller and cheaper. The sensors "paint" the target for the passive
sensors on the mines to pick up.
And as in real life these mines would be more of an area denial weapon than
an actual threat to a capital ship. And you would have to seed many many
mines which would probably not be station keeping, but would be moving
enmass into an area. Part of the point would be to force ships attempting to
traverse the area to slow down, use sensors and weapons to clear the mine
field. This alone would make them detectable to opposing craft.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Aircraft carrier displacement
Message-ID: <20020806013316.28336.qmail@web20418.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>

> Daniel Tackett wrote:

>> Would anyone here know how many displacement tons a
>>U.S. aircraft carrier like the "Enterprise" would be?

>Check out Ken Pick's excellent essay on Traveller starship tonnage. 
>It's on the Freelance Traveller website, I believe.
>
>Basically:
>
>	5 tons gross ship displacement(in today's nautical terms)=1
>displacement ton in Traveller.
>
>These are approximate, and there are some fairly complicated 
>variables, but this is a good rule of thumb.
>
>The essay also lists some typical ships and their Traveller tonnage:
>Carrier USS Enterprise (TL7): 75000 tons std, 90000 full-load = 
>approx. 18000 Tons Traveller 

That might be a good rule of thumb.  The Traveller dton is a measure
of volume, 1.5m x 1.5m x 3.0m, or 13.5m3.

The dimensions of the USS Enterprise (CVN-65) are given at these web
sites:

http://www02.clf.navy.mil/enterprise/
http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/factfile/ships/ship-cv.html

length = 335.64m
beam = 39.9m
height = 76.2m (keel to mast)

I was not able to find out the height of the mast and the conning
tower.  I'll assume that it's half of the keel to mast height.  That
gives a volume of 335.64 x 39.9 x 38.1 = 510,236m3.  510,236/13.5 =
37,795 dtons.  

The Enterprise is not a rectangular box, of course, so it is possible
that sloped sides make up for about half of the difference in volume
between its real shape and that of a rectangular box.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:36:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:36:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <20020806013559.48555.qmail@web20417.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>

>Dibs Arbellatra.  One of my favorite people in Traveller history.  
>Someday I'd love to write a sourcebook for the Arbellatra Regency.

You beat me to it!  She is also one of my favorites.  I see her
regency as a turning point in Imperial history at several levels.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump governor
Message-ID: <200208060139.MDR00542@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I don't see these in High Guard - IMTU, they don't exist.  If 
a Jump-4 ship jumps 2 parsecs, they only use 2 parsecs worth 
of fuel.

What was the last canon word on this subject, if any? 
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
 <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]>
Message-ID: <p0433010bb974d90d92ee@[198.123.22.180]>

One thought that came up in this thead.  One you get to high enough 
scale, things become binary, either you can fire enough missiles to 
overwhelm the point defenses, or you can't.  (Not getting into 
"saving up missles" and other stuff).

What is the view toward using nukes for point defense?  Is it OK 
since it is "defensive"?  I think the Imperium wouldn't allow it (why 
do you have a nuke in the first place?) and it would only matter for 
fleet battles anyway...  So it would come down to any agreements, 
unspoken or otherwise, between the major powers (Impies vs Zhos, 
Impies vs Solos, Hivers vs the K'Kree) and whether it is seen as 
provoking retaliation.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020805215043.E25687@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEMDEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>Yes; either remove the chemical warhead or replace it with a fusion
>warhead.  A chemical explosive makes little sense.  Even the standard
>missiles accelerate to 72 km/s in the first round -- putting a
>chemical explosive in them is a bit like putting a spring-loaded
>boxing glove on an anti-tank penetrator.
>
>
The only reason I can think of is to allow you to self destruct the missile
if necessary.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:55:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:55:24 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1028592626.5758.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1028592626.5758.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <p0433010cb974db4e1b41@[198.123.22.180]>

At 5:10 PM -0700 8/5/02, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>David P. Summers writes:
>>
>>  I'm not sure how you are adding these....
>
>Cockpit bridge: nominal sensor range (PESA) 20,000
>Command bridge: nominal sensor range (PESA) 100,000
>Area covered by a given sensor: proportional to square of range.
>Note that since, in space, stealth in GT is twice as effective as emissions
>cloaking, there's really no point to useing the AESA, the PESA is 
>almost always
>more effective.


You are assuming close packed spheres.  Since object are likely 
moving wrt to each other, you would leave gaps.  Ie, you would have 
successive "shells" of sensors that object would need to pass through 
to approach (and fighters have high G ratings and can cover more 
ground per sensor by moveing around).  Also, If you take sensor input 
from multiple sensors and combine them, it is possible to generate 
detection of things that couldn't be detected within the range of 
anyone sensor.  Lastly, the advantage that a fighter gives only its 
own position, and not that of the capital ship, if it is caught first 
is non-trivial
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:57:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:57:14 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <p0433010bb974d90d92ee@[198.123.22.180]>
References: <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]>
 <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
 <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020805220304.026d01a0@mail.buffnet.net>

At 06:41 PM 08/05/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>One thought that came up in this thead.  One you get to high enough scale, 
>things become binary, either you can fire enough missiles to overwhelm the 
>point defenses, or you can't.  (Not getting into "saving up missles" and 
>other stuff).
>
>What is the view toward using nukes for point defense?  Is it OK since it 
>is "defensive"?  I think the Imperium wouldn't allow it (why do you have a 
>nuke in the first place?) and it would only matter for fleet battles 
>anyway...  So it would come down to any agreements, unspoken or otherwise, 
>between the major powers (Impies vs Zhos, Impies vs Solos, Hivers vs the 
>K'Kree) and whether it is seen as provoking retaliation.

I agree with the assessment about the "binary" situation.  I rather liked 
the concept of firing at each missile per wave.  If you want to insure that 
you don't get "leakage" you assign two gunners to each missile.  Then 
again?  Missiles can be bad enough as they are without allowing them to 
hit         ;)

Oh well.  Part of me likes the first edition rules, part of me likes the 
second edition.  Arrrghhhhh.  I still remember how disgusted I felt when I 
saw the new edition rules granting a +3 bonus to all the ROF bonuses - 
meant I would have had to go in and change all of my point defense lasers 
I'd built for CGI (my fictional Weapon's company).  Such was life then that 
I took it down.  Oh well.

                   Hal


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:59:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:59:05 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020805221551.F25687@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEMDEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>> What you do is build lasers whose only purpose of existance is to
>> damage missiles.  Build those lasers so that you have a high rate of
>> fire.
>
>High RoF doesn't do a lot.  It just counts as a bonus to hit in the
>combat system.  e.g. Multiplying the RoF by 16 gives you +4 bonus.
>This would mean 2 extra hits per shot, except:
>
>For the same volume requirement, your weapon has to use about 10 times
>less energy per shot.  That cuts the damage by a factor of about 3,
>which doesn't matter a lot against the standard missiles.  It will
>however reduce your range by a factor of 3 -- not a problem, you say,
>because you only need less than a hex?  Range directly determines
>accuracy, which will thus drop by 3.
>
>The net effect is a +1 to hit.  You're almost back where you started,
>except that now your weapon is greatly restricted in its utility for
>any other role.
>
>I've been along that route :-/

In the playtest for Starships I believe it was stated that you simply use a
computer program to reconfigure your standard lasers for point defense. It
is assumed that point defense takes place at very short ranges (for space
combat.)


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 20:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fred Ramen)
Date: Mon Aug  5 19:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra (WAS: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
Message-ID: <00fa01c23ced$9eedde60$331df7a5@pctframen>

"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes:

"Dibs Arbellatra.  One of my favorite people in Traveller history.  Someday
I'd love to write a sourcebook for the Arbellatra Regency."

Aye, mine too. Such a book might finally answer the question of just what
kind of leader she was.

IMHO, the model for Arbellatra is Augustus--not Julius--Caesar. That is, she
was more a illiant politician than a brilliant general. I base this on a few
factors:

1) She essentially lost the 2FW but still managed to declare victory and
mobilize the Marches behind her. (Remember, the Imperium ceded territory to
the Zhodani after the war, and Library Data mentions that the final
engagement resulted in a "stalemate" between the two sides. She basically
one the war the same way the U.S. "won" the War of 1812--by not losing as
badly as expected.)

2) It seems doubtful to me that even after a decade of civil war her
provincial fleet could cow the Vland Sector Fleet--yet she must have had the
cooperation of Vland sector, as others have pointed out, in order to
triumph. Again, this demonstrates her political acumen.

3) Her masterly stroke of refusing the crown is remarkably similar to
Augustus' own "retirement" from government--while in truth retaining a firm
grip on the reins of power. (The people of Rome demanded at one point that
he publish a list of candidates he favored, so they would know who to vote
for--not from coercion, but from a devotion to Augustus.)

My interpretation may also explain her meteoric rise to high command at such
a young age--perhaps her title of Grand Admiral of the Marches was a
ceremonial one, or rank was determined by noble standing to a much greater
degree in the antebellum Imperium. (Indeed, perhaps Arbellatra reformed the
military to make it more egalitarian, not only to prevent a rival from
rising in a fashion like her own, but to insure loyalty to the Emperor and
the Imperium and not the individual commander, as seems to be the case with
Plankwell and the other Emperors of the Flag.)

Fred "Arbellatra Divina" Ramen


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 20:16:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Aug  5 19:16:31 2002
Subject: [TML] "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"
Message-ID: <20020806021519.42100.qmail@web11304.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Under the rules of war, we've been discussing, if an
enemy intentionally builds fortifications or other
military structures among a civilian populance, then
that enemy becomes rssponsible for the safety of those
aforementioned civilians. If those civilians are
actively and willfully supporting the enemy, then they
are no longer considered noncombatants. So, it IS Al
Quaida's fault and responsibility if the US
intentionally seeks to bomb a legitimate military
target that Al Qaida has hidden behind a human shield.
END QUOTE

Bomb civilians? To be polite what the f*&# are all the
special forces for? A bunch of civilians having a
wedding on an arms dump hardly need to be strafed by
C-130 gunships! Most would surrender as soon as ground
troops approached and those who attacked would be
shot. Sure maybe some troops would be shot, but they
knew that when they signed up. Killing hundreds of
civilians just to save a few of "our" soldiers is not
an ethical trade! During the early part of the Korean
war US forces where ordered by the Supreme Command to
fire on any refugees attempting to croos their lines,
in case the North Korean army was using them as
infiltrators! The Pentagon has repeatedly tried to
cover this up, my fear is much the same thing is going
on today. And I am not a dove to use the American
term, I advocated intervention in Afgahnistan three
years ago. I also support the invasion of Iraq
(Actually I believe Saddam should have been dead in
91). However killing civilians just because it is
easier than using ground forces is no excuse. Except
in exceptional circumstances such as using the A-bomb
on japan (though I would have preferred a live "test"
on a non populated region), where its purpose was more
to break the spirit of the japanese and prevent even
worse civilian casualties.

James

http://digital.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Digital How To
- Get the best out of your PC!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 20:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 19:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] UWP generator
In-Reply-To: <20020730040045.54068.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20805.174051.5d2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I am currently in the process of creating my own home
> brew campaign setting (Can you say "Goa'uld of the
> starboard bow!")

I've got some images of stargates (both photos and drawings) and some
fonts with the symbols. I got them courtesy of someone who runs an SG-1
website.

> I could write the software myself but my C++
> compiler won't do random numbers (machine specific
> problem) and I don't yet know enough Java.

What's wrong with BASIC? <g>

The old interpreted QBASIC was still on the disks as of Win 98SE. I
don't know about ME or XP. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 20:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Aug  5 19:35:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <20020806023441.86669.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
I'll repeat myself.  Using the small fleet concept
that Roseberry posted earlier, I would be interested
in running a TL 12 PBEM.

Then we could find out through politics what other
players (representing their governments) think of
things like planetary bombardment, prisoner exchange,
trade embargos, blockades, etc.
END QUOTE

I would be interested. Even though I haven't designed
any military ships before. Can I be the "Evil Empire",
to exercise my sick and twisted imagination (too many
years of playing Vampire:TM) ;)

James


http://digital.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Digital How To
- Get the best out of your PC!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 20:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 19:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <200208060250.MDT01032@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Ramsay says
>I would be interested. Even though I haven't designed
>any military ships before. Can I be the "Evil Empire",
>to exercise my sick and twisted imagination (too many
>years of playing Vampire:TM) ;)
>

I think we have to go with Doug's idea, and take this to 
several levels - some people would be fleet commanders, some 
people would be the politicians, and some people would be the 
First Space Lord (Lord of the Admiralty?).

Also, it would have to be coordinated so all commo went 
through me, so that we could get everyone good and confused.

I was just thinking of things like the Imperial Navy 
Permanent Fighting Instructions...
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 21:07:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 20:07:35 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEMDEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <20020805221551.F25687@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEMDEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <4035.64.8.3.28.1028603214.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

Hello Terry,

> In the playtest for Starships I believe it was stated that you simply
> use a computer program to reconfigure your standard lasers for point
> defense. It is assumed that point defense takes place at very short
> ranges (for space combat.)

When I built lasers for use in my traveller campaign back when first
edition Traveller came out - I built purpose built point defense lasers. 
They didn't have a lot of damaging ability - perfect for civilian use. 
They did however, have a higher rate of fire than normal lasers...



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 21:25:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 20:25:20 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller - more
Message-ID: <d1.1c6715c7.2a8098f4@aol.com>

 >Actually, given some of the other tech, the weapons could be fusion
 >warheads that don't *need* a fission trigger.

I see.  Then (ignoring the fact that this is fantasy technology) I suppose 
that anyone with access to a fusion plant of any size will have access to a 
fusion "nuke" (for lack of another word)?

Book 4 states that the PGMP-13 is powered by a fusion reactor.  I don't 
suppose this would be significantly larger than that on a missile, so how 
much modification would be needed to turn it into a bomb?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 21:26:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 20:26:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: T20 background question
Message-ID: <200208060324.g763OPw20614@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] T20 background question
...
>TL 14 would be the equivalent of TL 15 - the TL of most modern military
>gear. Depending on how long TL 14 had been around, a fair bit of older stuff
>might be TL 14 too.
>
>The counter mix from Invasion Earth might be worth studying. Images of it
>may be available on the Far Futures website.

  Courtesy of the TML RoM TL Flamewar/Debate of 1997 Historical 
Re-enactment Society:

  Feb 19 98
>To: Traveller
>From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>Subject: IM equipment/doctrine
>
>  I was recently flipping through a rather overpriced copy of the
>Regency Vehicle Sourcebook (?), and got the strong impression that
>Imperial Marines were (in TNE, at least) always equipped to the
>best standard, that being 14 or 15 by the Rebellion.
>
>  That all makes sense and is probably an extension of Striker II
>material, but while pawing through the Invasion: Earth counter mix
>I ran across a bunch of TL 12 and 13 Marines. I know that projects
>about Marine history and TO&E's are out there, and I was wondering
>if any ideas had been formed about how this fit IM or IN doctrine,
>or what had changed since 1002.
>
>  As all other units seem to be limited to TL 14, presumably all
>~max. TL Marines were serving with fleet elements continuing the
>offensive beyond Sol system. So it would appear that at least
>until then that the IM had independent Marine regiments (from the
>counters) of lower (12/13) TL for occupation or follow-up duties.
>
>  This assumes that the white Imperial counters with a star for ID
>type are Marines... my copy of FFW went AWOL long ago.
>

        ********   

 Apr 6 98
>To: Traveller
>From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>Subject: I:E commandoes
>
>>>For the record, Inv: Earth gives _both_ sides TL14 troops counters.  The
>>>Imperial forces are broken down as to Regulars, Colonials, etc., but no
>>>such distinction is made for the Solomani counters.  (Exactly why I
>>>stated that the claim that Earth was TL13 was, well, an exaggeration.)
>>
>>   This fits nicely with establish canon.  I'm not sure what the problem
>>is here.  While it is possible that the Imperium and Solomani had some
>>TL 15 commandos or other small elite formations, at the scale the game
>>is conducted, they would not have been a factor in the fighting (or
>>would have been lumped in with a lower tech formation).
>
>  This came up several months ago. However, both commando units (regiment
>-sized raiders) and rules (ignore ZOC's/occupied hexes) are covered, and
>none are TL 15. Also, while Terra can churn out replacement armies at TL
>14, not even a few thousand TL 15 lift infantry kits can be produced.
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 21:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 20:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020806075541.B27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805090845.01831e50@192.168.0.1>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020804223247.0237e008@192.168.0.1>
 <20020804232303.7408.33320.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <006701c23c1f$2baff600$195d8690@computer>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020804223247.0237e008@192.168.0.1>
 <20020805202103.D25687@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020805090845.01831e50@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805225506.02acc008@192.168.0.1>

At 07:55 AM 8/6/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
> > It was determined that published trade rules didn't fit the big picture.
>That may be so, but they are the official rules for the official
>universe.  I agree that variant rules may give variant results.

 From what I recall, the rules for small (100-200 ton) 'tramp' traders.
That is what players typically have (instead of freighters the size of Navy 
Cruisers)
It's been a long time since I looked at the CT rules, and haven't dug into 
the Far Trader rules to the extent you have.

The thread started with how did the die off happen in TNE on Rockballs if 
they grow all their own food.
Someone else has stated that the Virus would play havoc with the local 
greenhouses and such (and gave examples)

I'll take your word that the numbers in Far Trader state that high pop 
rockballs grow all their own food.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vegetarian: An old Indian word that means "lousy hunter."
                www.urbin.net/EWW/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 21:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mosaic Tapestry)
Date: Mon Aug  5 20:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra (WAS: warship optimization in Traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <00fa01c23ced$9eedde60$331df7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <002901c23cfa$9b96b130$2f7de40c@loki>

Fred Ramen shares with us a wonderful comparison of Arbellatra and
Augustus to wit I must say thank you. It is these kinds of analysis,
shared, that reignites my desires to look into parts of the Traveller
universe I had allowed to rest and become dusty.

For those wishing to further explore may I offer these semi-random
links?

http://home.earthlink.net/~nimrodd/LibraryData/A/Arbellatra.htm
http://home.earthlink.net/~nimrodd/LibraryData/C/CivilWar.htm
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw/libdata/ALPHABET/S/soegz.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Matrix/1302/HIWGNZ/I3.html
http://www.ogrecave.com/reviews/darkmoon.shtml
http://www.flash.net/~grazzit/history.html
http://members.cox.net/carlino/Survey.htm
http://www.jtas.org/Software/downloads/megat1.txt
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~iandl57/samson.html
http://www.io.com/~mike_f/RPG/Rumors_of_War/Third_Imperium.html
http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/money.html
http://www.rossmack.com/ab/rpg/traveller/ChartedSpace/BY/BY1104.asp
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~iandl57/tranoii.html
http://www.io.com/~thrash/imperium.html

I did say they were semi-random didn't I? Anyway I had fun collecting
'em hope some of you have fun following them.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 21:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 20:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <159.120df85e.2a809f36@aol.com>

 >> > Army?  What army?
 >> 
 >> I'll believe that when I see it. This sort of talking has always 
 >> turned 
 >> out to be wishful thinking in the past, and I see no reason why it 
 >> isn't now. It's all very well while you're thrashing low-tech 
 >> thrid-
 >> worlders, but sooner or later there'll be another first-world vs 
 >> first-
 >> world scrap, and spec ops teams relying on vast amounts of support 
 >> just 
 >> won't cut it.
 >> 
 >I refer readers to the Fehrenbach quote the opens Chapter 1 of GT:GF.  
 >Words to the effect of (quoted from memory):
 >
 >You may fly over a land forever; you may bomb it, atomize it, sterilize 
 >it and wipe it clean of life; but if you wish to defend it for 
 >civilization, you must do this the way the Romans did, by putting your 
 >young men into the mud.

I would agree.  But as you will observe in Afghanistan (and arguably Serbia) 
they did it by putting someone else's young men into the mud -- and not all 
that many of those.  I seem to remember something along those lines in 
Gibbons ....

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 21:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 20:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller - more
Message-ID: <200208060348.MDV00878@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Flykiller asks
>Book 4 states that the PGMP-13 is powered by a fusion 
>reactor.  I don't suppose this would be significantly larger 
>than that on a missile, so how much modification would be 
>needed to turn it into a bomb?


Take a look at the LANL Magnetized Target Fusion web page.  
Then think about how that could be used as an initiator for a 
fusion weapon - without the traditional fission primary.

The Z-pinch at Sandia is also a possibility, if the power 
conditioning piece can be made small enough.
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 22:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Aug  5 21:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEMDEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEMDEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <1028606767.3d4f4b2fa9269@www.paradise.net.nz>

Quoting Terry Carlino <carlino@cox.net>:

> In the playtest for Starships I believe it was stated that you simply
> use a
> computer program to reconfigure your standard lasers for point defense.
> It
> is assumed that point defense takes place at very short ranges (for
> space
> combat.)

For point-defence lasers using FF&S1 I assumed that you could crank up the RoF 
by lowering the energy per pulse by the requisite amount. As a 200MJ RoF100 
laser (for example) has the same focal array volume as a 50MJ RoF800 laser the 
only inefficiency is in needing a 200MJ HPG. AFAICT being able to install only 
one type of laser makes up for that quite easily.

-- 
Rupert Boleyn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 23:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 22:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Aircraft carrier displacement
Message-ID: <OF2DF9F69F.D7DF6D06-ONCA256C0D.001C4302@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Glenn wrote:
>I was not able to find out the height of the mast and the conning
>tower.  I'll assume that it's half of the keel to mast height.  That
>gives a volume of 335.64 x 39.9 x 38.1 = 510,236m3.  510,236/13.5 =
>37,795 dtons.
>
>The Enterprise is not a rectangular box, of course, so it is possible
>that sloped sides make up for about half of the difference in volume
>between its real shape and that of a rectangular box.

Triangular box, so it should be roughly 1/3 of your figure (~12,500 
dtons). If it's 5/12ths to allow for the larger stern, it comes to 15,750 
dtons. Then add the "island" section.

I'd go with Brian's 18,000-ton figure. Near enough for Daniel's 
"visualisation in my head" work.  ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 23:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Clint Rynners)
Date: Mon Aug  5 22:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <OFAB1B22C2.9545AAF0-ON42256C0D.001E9A8B@ko.com>

John T. Kwon wrote:
"May we assume that the countdown has begun?"

Mr Kwon

I am of the view that we are not going very far as a species until we
manage to get our act together on Earth and solve the seemingly
insurmountable problems - of our own doing - facing us. Even interplanetary
travel on any significant scale is just not going to happen unless we
instigate a paradigm shift in the way we behave towards each other and
towards life in general. Is it unreasonable to assume that any sentient
species that gains control of its environment has to learn to curb
exponential growth and a corresponding exponential increase in the demand
for resources? Only once this hurdle is overcome will the ability to
harness the resources of a single solar system and the ability to travel to
other solar systems be developed. Perhaps I am making sweeping assumptions,
but this seems to be the case with the only example I have to base my views
on.
 Another point to consider is that we are unlikely to encounter an alien
species in the same technological ballpark as us. Given the age of our
galaxy, and the number of times in the past the conditions for life as we
know them have probably occurred, our encounter with an alien species
travelling through interstellar space is probably going to be them
investigating us in the manner that we would investigate an ant-hill. We
would be more of a curiosity than a threat.

Having said all this, Greg Bear's "The Forge of God" and "The Anvil of the
Stars" left me cold. The notion that we have not been contacted by other
species is because they are all doing their best to hide, much like small
creatures in a jungle full of predators. And we are like a dumb little
bird, sitting on a branch chirping away as loudly as possible to all and
sundry. A memorable analogy from the second book, as a remnant of humanity
seeks to punish the species that destroyed the Earth: they were like a fly
(could have been an ant) entering someone's kitchen, intent on revenge.

Your thoughts?

Regards

Clint Rynners



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 23:56:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Clint Rynners)
Date: Mon Aug  5 22:56:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Aircraft carrier displacement
Message-ID: <OFA1CCF309.C0F79DCF-ON42256C0D.0020C815@ko.com>

"Would anyone here know how many displacement tons a
U.S. aircraft carrier like the "Enterprise" would be?"

There is an article in the Shipyard section of Freelance Traveller about
the dtons and the displacement of water-borne vessels.

Regards

Clint Rynners


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 00:06:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Mon Aug  5 23:06:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Woo Hoo Yepieee the IW are coming to town
Message-ID: <3D500FEB.23377.99926E7@localhost>

Copied from JTAS

From:       Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Date:       23:01:47, Aug 05, 2002
Message-ID: 15305
Group:      General Discussion

Interstellar Wars: A New Direction For Traveller Steve Jackson Games is 
pleased to announce that its license to produce a GURPS version of the 
classic science-fiction roleplaying game Traveller has been extended for 
another three years. By agreement with Far Future Enterprises, the 
GURPS Traveller line, as well as the online Journal of the Travellers' Aid 
Society, will continue at least through the end of 2005.

The new license also gives SJ Games the right to open up a new period in 
the distant past of the classic Third Imperium setting. Long before the 
foundation of the Imperium, the Humans of Terra reached the stars for the 
first time, only to find that they were already owned by someone else. 
Centuries of conflict followed, in which the outnumbered Terrans fought for 
their very survival against a vast but decadent alien empire. Now GURPS 
Traveller will examine this crucial time. The first release in the new line, 
GURPS Traveller: The Interstellar Wars, is tentatively scheduled for a 
Summer 2003 release.

"The Interstellar Wars have always been of great interest to Traveller fans," 
said GURPS Traveller Line Editor Jon F. Zeigler. "It's very exciting to have 
the opportunity to develop this period into a setting for epic adventure." 
Marc Miller, creator of Traveller, agreed. "I'm excited about opening a new 
milieu. There's room for a lot of new things here." Senior Line Editor Loren 
Wiseman, long-time Traveller author and editor, remains at the helm of the 
GURPS Traveller product line. He is assisted by Zeigler, and by Graeme 
Davis, editor of the Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society (JTAS).


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 00:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Mon Aug  5 23:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
Message-ID: <20020806021137.13bb35092d5d49ae9344179b452c1788.in@keywest.kennett.net>

Hi,

This probably displays the depths of my ignorance, but can anybody give me a
description of how a unit's change of command ceremony goes?  I am looking
specifically for the US Navy's protocol, but any nation or service is welcomed.

Thanks,

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

 My Sale List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
 My Want List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 01:28:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Tue Aug  6 00:28:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
References: <20020805183149.2742.79211.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D4F7A61.BA9F032E@ameritech.net>

> Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 09:42:43 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> David Shayne <daveshayne@ameritech.net> writes:
> >
> >> Any clues?
> >
> >I couldn't find that info in any TNE source. There are charts for that
> >in "World Builder's Handbook" for MT. Assuming for the moment that you
> >don't have access to that very worthwhile publication I can give you
> >some typical figures from that source.
> >
> >Smallest SGG radius = 20
> >Average SGG radius ~= 60
> >Highest SGG radius = 100
> >
> >Smallest LGG radius = 110
> >Average LGG radius ~= 175
> >Highest LGG radius = 240
> 
> Applying a realism check here, Jupiter, at size 88, is about the limit
> for any sort of gas giant (assuming TNE size is in thousands of miles,
> like CT size).

Yes it is. And yes from a perfect realism standpoint this is wrong.
However probably not hugely broken since the main thing we need to
determine here is the mass and this gives a reasonable number for mass
while still being usable with the same formula as for small rocky worlds
. (like earth) Besides I tend to the view that wherever reality and the
rules are in conflict it's almost always reality that has it wrong.
(With a special thanks to the late Doug Adams.)

> >
> >Lowest GG density = .1
> >Average GG density ~= .21
> >Highest GG density = .3
> 
> Assuming that's g/cc, that's horribly wrong. 

Standard densities. With Earth = 1. Doesn't look so horibly wrong now
does it? 

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 01:44:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug  6 00:44:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
In-Reply-To: <3D4FA627.26089.39E708@localhost>
References: <3D4E5E7E.26225.7DEF71@localhost> <20020806081755.D27684@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D4FA627.26089.39E708@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020806174314.A28821@freeman.little-possums.net>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> No, I forgot to mention that this model can run the sensor and brain 
> for 7 days.

Phew, that's quite a bit better.  You're right about the huge drain
for PEMS though.  Aren't they meant to be *passive* sensors?


> Perhaps a CAPTOR style sensor platform with a number of small missiles 
> on board would be a workable comprimise, though it'd start getting 
> expensive real quick, and it wouldn't be long before most design 
> committees turned it into a small battle-station by adding point 
> defence, etc. I'm sure.

I strongly suspect so, yes.  Trouble is, they'd probably be right :(
Maybe small mines aren't viable in FF&S?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 02:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mosaic Tapestry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 01:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <20020806021137.13bb35092d5d49ae9344179b452c1788.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <000e01c23d20$3c40c240$2f7de40c@loki>

I'm not sure which details are important to you but the essential bit of
a US Army change of command is the transfer of the colors. The outgoing
commander hands the colors to his commanding officer who immediately
hands them to the incoming commander.

A web page of events surrounding such with photo of the act:
http://www.militarymarksmanship.org/hoidahlcoc.htm

A web page of events surrounding such with parade and all:
http://www.afsouth.nato.int/images/change.htm



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 02:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug  6 01:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com> <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com> <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>

Hal wrote:
> List all of the modifiers to gunner's skill you are using in a 
> missile/antimissile engagement.

Pretty similar to yours.  In more detail:

> Skill 12 laser gunner

A reasonable median.  I've been assuming about 9 for civilians who
have weapons but test-fire them more than they use them, up to about
15 for well-trained and experienced military personnel.

> Gunnery +6 to hit program

I generally use a Complexity 8 targeting program for +9 to hit (not
cumulative with Gunnery program).  Civilian ships will have less,
possibly +4.

> ROF bonus +10

I get only +7 RoF bonus per laser, or +8 (maybe +9) for a standard
"triple laser" turret.  Are you grouping them into larger batteries?

> Total modifiers:
> 12+ 32 + 6 + 10 + 10 + 2 - 39 = 72-39 = 32

Pretty close; I get between 24-37 depending upon circumstances; 32 is
fine.


> Rolling an average of 10 on 3d6 means that you will have succeeded by 
> 22.  Number of missiles successfully engaged in that round will be equal to 
> round((22-3)/2,0) or 19/2 rounded up or 10.

It's rather odd to see a turret that fires only 1 shot per 20 seconds
take out 10 missiles in the 15-30 seconds it takes the missiles to
cross the last half-hex, but them's the rules :(

Yes, that's close to the figures I get.


>  Please note that second edition rules for TRAVELLER have bumped up
> the ROF bonus from their current levels to current levels +3.

That's OK, I've got the second edition rules.  Just bought them a
couple of months ago.


> If more than 10 are inbound, he stops 10 and the rest hit.

That's the problem.  Dton-for-dton, there will always be more than 10
incoming missiles per defending turret using any sane launcher and
guidance design.  A million points of impact damage per turret
*really* hurts.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 02:41:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 01:41:04 2002
Subject: [TML] GURPS MISSILE WARFARE (was The big fleet debate)
In-Reply-To: <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

>> Gunnery +6 to hit program
>
> I generally use a Complexity 8 targeting program for +9 to hit (not
> cumulative with Gunnery program).  Civilian ships will have less,
> possibly +4.

The CDI (C Defense Industries) had a showcase of a lot of different types
of low power lasers.  The trade off was that they increased the rate of
fire to get an increase in ROF bonus.  One interesting development was to
build a specialized targeting computer.  Using GURPS rules, it was a
specilized computer getting a +1 complexity bonus for use with a targeting
computer.


>> ROF bonus +10
>
> I get only +7 RoF bonus per laser, or +8 (maybe +9) for a standard
> "triple laser" turret.  Are you grouping them into larger batteries?

The point defense lasers I built could easily attain that ROF bonus. 
Since lasers in a single turret cannot target different targets, most
Point defense scenarios I had were such that you had a triple turret
firing three lasers at its target.  I will see if I can dig up my archived
copy of the point defense lasers.  But +10 is not hard to achieve :)


>> Total modifiers:
>> 12+ 32 + 6 + 10 + 10 + 2 - 39 = 72-39 = 32
>
> Pretty close; I get between 24-37 depending upon circumstances; 32 is
> fine.
>
>
>> Rolling an average of 10 on 3d6 means that you will have succeeded by
>> 22.  Number of missiles successfully engaged in that round will be
>> equal to  round((22-3)/2,0) or 19/2 rounded up or 10.
>
> It's rather odd to see a turret that fires only 1 shot per 20 seconds
> take out 10 missiles in the 15-30 seconds it takes the missiles to
> cross the last half-hex, but them's the rules :(

Minor thoughts: part of that +10 bonus for Point defense comes of the fact
that the missiles attempting to hit you have to come in from a specific
"region".  This region is a relatively small cone that gets smaller the
closer those missiles come to you.  But you are correct.  There should be
a MAX number of targets that can be engaged by a single laser group per
turn equal to the max number of shots a single laser in the grouping and
put out in a turn.


>> If more than 10 are inbound, he stops 10 and the rest hit.
>
> That's the problem.  Dton-for-dton, there will always be more than 10
> incoming missiles per defending turret using any sane launcher and
> guidance design.  A million points of impact damage per turret
> *really* hurts.

Using the concept that the current weapon systems are designed to operate
against the current enemy weapon technology - try using the GURPS
TRAVELLER missile designs first.  Then do an analysis of weapons in the
TRAVELLER universe.  If you can see where there is an improved methodology
for weapons, post it and we can argue the merits and/or improve any
oversights.  I am still flabberghasted that no one ever noticed that the
FAST drug makes a FAR better alternative for cheap travel than does a
freeze tube!

  But that is another story ;)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 03:22:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Aug  6 02:22:04 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
References: <OF2F3C29E3.8D5E3297-ONCA256C0C.0081279C@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <004501c23d2c$34a85e60$d601bd50@martinjd>

>
> Martin replied:
> >>What is the TL of  the Imperium & the Terran Confederation in the
> >>Year 1000 setting of T20?
> >
> >The Impeirum is TL 14 mostly, with Tl 15 just creeping in over the last
> few
> >years.
>
> OK, this one's got me puzzled, I'll give a serious reply now.


Ooops. Sorry "best tech in the Imperium is mostly TL 14, with 15 creeping
in". Average is lower..


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 03:23:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Aug  6 02:23:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump governor
References: <200208060139.MDR00542@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <004a01c23d2c$35f06ec0$d601bd50@martinjd>

> I don't see these in High Guard - IMTU, they don't exist.  If
> a Jump-4 ship jumps 2 parsecs, they only use 2 parsecs worth
> of fuel.
>
> What was the last canon word on this subject, if any?

Marc's last statement (and confirmed to me in a question I asked a while
ago) was that if you have J-3 fuel and you J-1, you only use J1 of fuel up.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 04:07:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Tue Aug  6 03:07:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Taxes
In-Reply-To: <20020805183149.2742.79211.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208061200220.25606-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Anthony Jackson writes:
>In Striker, the implication is that the imperial military tax is simply 1/3
>of the planet's total military expenditure (with another 1/3 going to the
>subsector fleet, so the world only keeps 1/3 for personal forces).

Incorrect. It's 30% of total military expenditure that goes to the
Imperium with 70% retained for local use. The 30% is divided between
regular and subsector forces. I used to be convinced that somewhere I had
seen a canonical statement to the effect that these Imperial military
taxes were split 50/50 between regular and subsector forces (so 15% to
each), but I've been trying to track down the reference for a while with
no luck, so I'm beginning to doubt. Maybe I made it up myself (anyone who
can come up with the reference will earn my undying gratitude ;-).



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 04:20:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug  6 03:20:05 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1028592330.6838.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020806083856.E27684@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1028592330.6838.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020806201901.C28821@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Ok, that's reasonable.  Now, let's look at a point defense system:

> 9 x rE cell, good for 50 shots: 0.09T, $90k

I get $180k, but that doesn't matter much.

> Dedicated Macroframe: 0.25T, $50k, complexity 11

I get $100k and Complexity 10 at TL12.  It's not hardened, but that's
not likely to be a problem except in really unusual situations.


> Targeting +12: $512k (but probably gets a bulk discoute)

I get $256k, and I agree about the bulk discount ;) However, I can
only seem to fit a $128k +11 program in the macroframe.


> with the Vehicles system beam weapons in space have no Acc cap,

However, in the Vehicles rules maximum accuracy bonus is limited to
Gunnery skill, in this case 25.  There's no point in aiming more than
one second.  That gives you a base of 50 (51 since you can miss by one
and still hit).


> The missile is being fired at one second before impact

You'd better make that at least two seconds else the now unguided
missile will still hit your ship.  You need to do a *lot* more damage
to annihilate it.  (In fact, if there are a lot of missiles, you might
find it very hard to dodge all the "dead" ones...)

That doesn't change the basic to-hit number by much, it's 15- instead
of 16-.  Continuing the progression out to the 1/2D limit, I also get
an average of about 8 missiles killed.

It's a good thing I didn't put thermal superconductors in their
armour ;)


> Hm...that's actually worse than I realized.  Oh well, if they send a
> really big swarm of missiles at you simply dump a canister round in
> front of them.

How *big* a canister round?

You need to disable the missiles about 600 miles out, and they will
probably be approaching from a region 200 miles across at that
distance.  Your canister must disperse about ten trillion objects of
sufficient size to reliably disable a missile, just to cut the numbers
in half.

A 20 MJ x-ray pulse is barely enough to penetrate the DR, so I'll use
that to derive an estimate of particle size required.  At 500 km/s,
that works out to a mass of about 0.16 grams, which I will round down
to 0.1 grams to give some benefit of the doubt to the defending side.

Each canister must thus have a mass of about a million tonnes.  You
would actually need a few times that to account for dispersion.


Your countermissile idea was better.  I've designed and played it
using Vehicles rules, and it is a highly reliable system for
intercepting missiles.

It would probably fail horribly when faced with a "silent launch" from
an untracked ship though.  In my Vehicles test of this scenario, most
of the missiles weren't detected until about 10 seconds before impact.
Even with an immediate launch at 30 gees, they couldn't intercept the
missiles at a safe distance.  In such a case, lasers are about the
only option -- and even then, not a good one.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 04:25:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Aug  6 03:25:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
In-Reply-To: <c8.2aaa2ec2.2a794cbe@cs.com>
Message-ID: <20806.014533.9X1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> >That's John Milius.
>> 
>> So it is . . . he still should have directed Starship Troopers.
>> 
>> LKW
>
> Anyone _OTHER_ than Verhoeven should have directed Starship Troopers.

Yeah, but if he directed Red Dawn, he *definitely* makes the short list.


-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 04:39:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug  6 03:39:04 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEMCEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <20020805082530.D24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEMCEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20020806203758.D28821@freeman.little-possums.net>

Terry Carlino wrote:
[2D maps vs 3D maps]
> What has that to do with anything. A det-laser mine that can fire
> across a 10,000 mile hex, can fire across a 10,000 sphere.

The difference is in how many you need.  A typical interplanetary
"traffic lane" would be a few million miles wide (say 5 million).  On
a 2-D map, you only need 500 mines which is expensive but probably
doable.  On a 3D map you need 250,000 -- that's almost certain to
break your budget given how much they cost each.

Note that I'm not saying mines are ineffective in general, I was
commenting in the thread that started with an attacker trying to use
them to destroy interplanetary commerce.  I don't think that will work
well enough to be worthwhile.


> After doing some searching on my hard drive I find that actual range
> is more like 9 hexes, so in a three dimensional game that would be a
> sphere 180,000 miles across.

9 hexes range is a lot better.  You only need about 800 to cover that
traffic lane.  


> I think the best system we came up with was one where the mines were
> controlled by either a controlling sensor platform or a ship. This
> makes the mines smaller and cheaper. The sensors "paint" the target
> for the passive sensors on the mines to pick up.

Yes, that rings a bell.  Again, more effective in 2D than 3D, but
useful for covering the space near a planet or other "small" area.


> Part of the point would be to force ships attempting to traverse the
> area to slow down, use sensors and weapons to clear the mine
> field. This alone would make them detectable to opposing craft.

I've not found detection of enemy craft to be much of a problem in my
test-bed runs.  Usually the side with mines controls the system, sees
the jump flash of any intruder, and can track everything they
subsequently do.

Maybe I'm just lacking battle experience against other people.  Is
avoiding detection by the defender a possibility in most people's
scenarios?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 04:44:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug  6 03:44:04 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <p0433010bb974d90d92ee@[198.123.22.180]>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com> <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net> <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]> <p0433010bb974d90d92ee@[198.123.22.180]>
Message-ID: <20020806204257.E28821@freeman.little-possums.net>

David P. Summers wrote:
> What is the view toward using nukes for point defense?

My first thought would be "Is it worthwhile?"

Politically, I suspect it lies in a murky area.  In practice, I
suspect that the advantages of using nuclear weapons for defense
aren't sufficient to be worth the chance that the other side might
take it as a sign that it's OK for them to use nukes in offense.

I can see very clear advantages to using nukes offensively...


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 04:46:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug  6 03:46:04 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEMDEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <20020805215043.E25687@freeman.little-possums.net> <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEMDEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20020806204412.F28821@freeman.little-possums.net>

Terry Carlino wrote:
> The only reason I can think of is to allow you to self destruct the
> missile if necessary.

Yes, I guess that makes sense.  Thanks :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 05:15:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Tue Aug  6 04:15:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Ad campaign......
Message-ID: <20020806111409.62570.qmail@web11001.mail.yahoo.com>

Just a thought for an InstellArms catalog:

http://www.missilesandfirecontrol.com/our_products/antiarmor.html

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 06:04:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Aug  6 05:04:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
In-Reply-To: <20020806174314.A28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3D4FA627.26089.39E708@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D5063E3.15285.4B7F3E@localhost>

On 6 Aug 2002 at 17:43, Timothy Little wrote:

> Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > No, I forgot to mention that this model can run the sensor and brain 
> > for 7 days.
> 
> Phew, that's quite a bit better.  You're right about the huge drain
> for PEMS though.  Aren't they meant to be *passive* sensors?

Yeah. I think they must use valves in their signal processor, or 
something. :)

> > Perhaps a CAPTOR style sensor platform with a number of small missiles 
> > on board would be a workable comprimise, though it'd start getting 
> > expensive real quick, and it wouldn't be long before most design 
> > committees turned it into a small battle-station by adding point 
> > defence, etc. I'm sure.
> 
> I strongly suspect so, yes.  Trouble is, they'd probably be right :(
> Maybe small mines aren't viable in FF&S?

It depends what for. That first design I posted was only 1 m^3 in 
volume, and would be quite hard to avoid, I think. the 3 G-turns of 
fuel it had is enough to guarantee that it can get into firing position 
of anything that comes within 60,000km or so (a turn in TNE is 30 
minutes, and a hex 30,000km).

By ditching the rocket the volume can be brought down to 0.6 m^3 and 
the cost to MCr1.423 at TL15, but then the mine can only attack craft 
that come into its hex - within 10-15,000km or so. I tried taking off 
the Electromagnetic Masking (EMM), but that didn't save any significant 
space, money or power.

Actually playing around I see that if a fusion reactor of minimum size 
is put in (assuming TL15 that's 0.1 m^3 and 0.6MW) you can still have 
the basic 1 m^3 mine, and about 4 months fuel, with no noticeable 
increase in cost. In fact the limit to performance suddenly bocomes 
surface area on which to mount the PEMS.

Thus:

TL Guidance Vol Mass AV MCr   G-Turns Warhead Hits Damage  Range
15 Full-Ind 1   1.26 3  1.547 3/3     50kt    1D6  1/14-43 0

Comm Sensor Signatures     Asset
10L  1P     +4/+3/+4/+3/+1 4/8

with a duration for the sensor and brain of 4 months.

Or, for a bigger job:

TL Guidance Vol Mass AV MCr   G-Turns Warhead Hits Damage  Range
15 Full-Ind 7   8.48 3  7.434 3/3     500kt   1D6  1/25-79 0

Comm Sensor Signatures     Asset
10L  5P     +4/+3/+4/+3/+1 6/16

This thing has a short range of 150,000km for its PEMS and a maximum of 
1,200,000km and a year's fuel for the fusion plant that powers its 
sensor and brain (the same plant as the little 'um uses, BTW). It has a 
fairly weak motor because it's still got a crappy little EAPlaC solid 
fuel rocket instead of a nice HEPlaR or thruster system. This way it's 
not sensitive to issues version or canon the same way (FWIW).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 06:09:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Aug  6 05:09:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <200208061208.MEL01964@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>I am of the view that we are not going very far as a species 
>until we manage to get our act together on Earth and solve 
>the seemingly insurmountable problems - of our own doing - 
>facing us. Even interplanetary travel on any significant 
>scale is just not going to happen unless we instigate a 
>paradigm shift in the way we behave towards each other and
>towards life in general. Is it unreasonable to assume that 
>any sentient species that gains control of its environment 
>has to learn to curb exponential growth and a corresponding 
>exponential increase in the demand for resources? Only once 
>this hurdle is overcome will the ability to harness the 
>resources of a single solar system and the ability to travel 
>to other solar systems be developed.

This is the Sagan hypothesis - that sufficiently advanced 
alien life forms will have learned to be "peaceful".  There 
is no reason that this has to be so.  If a warlike species 
came to be dominated by a single high tech faction, through 
limited nuclear war and genocidal action, and used this high 
technology to permanently dominate and subjugate its 
population, it would survive its birth into a nuclear age and 
birth into a starfaring age.

Sufficiently advanced technology makes life on an airless 
rockball possible - why would such a species need to preserve 
its wildlife?  

It is simply not logical to conclude that we must get our act 
together in some peaceful manner.  All that is required is 
that we get our act together - and this could be done today 
by the United States, largely through the use of force.  We 
could solve many problems at once - the population problem, 
the poverty of the third world, the source of most terrorists 
around the world, religions that are inimical to US goals, up 
and coming governments that will consume resources to no good 
end - imagine the tyranny of technological might that could 
annihilate several billion people in a few weeks, and spend 
the world's resources on going to the stars.

A peaceful Sagan-like world that ran across a violent world 
where both were capable of building antimatter rockets would 
be annihilated by the violent world in the time it took for 
the rockets to cross the distance.  The peaceful would die 
with startled looks on their faces as the radars showed the 
near-C projectiles coming in.

Scary, isn't it?  But I think that across the stars, this is 
the far more likely scenario.  Sagan was a dreamer, a wishful 
thinker whose idea of transgression was cheating on his wife.

When I see pictures of children overseas holding AK-47s, I 
see a future where alien races are holding antimatter rockets 
and near-C rocks.  Same picture.  It's not a good idea to 
shout, "Here I am!" in a jungle like that.
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 06:21:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 05:21:04 2002
Subject: [TML] GURPS Interstellar Wars
Message-ID: <20020806.081920.-291705.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

Many of you have probably already run across this, but for those who
haven't, check out Evil Stevie's Daily Illuminator
(http://www.sjgames.com/ill/) for the 8/6/02 entry.


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"




________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 07:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Tue Aug  6 06:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] GURPS Interstellar Wars
In-Reply-To: <20020806.081920.-291705.0.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <000601c23d4f$49ec0330$0b01a8c0@duck>

> Many of you have probably already run across this, but for those who
> haven't, check out Evil Stevie's Daily Illuminator
> (http://www.sjgames.com/ill/) for the 8/6/02 entry.

I hadn't see it yet, but it does sound interesting.  The only thing
I hope is that this doesn't mean they are abandoning their alternate
history.

They have just gotten to the cusp of 1120 and actually having history
move forward.  It will be quite disappointing if instead history just
stops at 1120 as they abandon it for the Interstellar Wars.

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 08:41:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Tue Aug  6 07:41:04 2002
Subject: [TML] The cloak
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D1C@USCHM203>

I once ran through the Maxcy dorm parking lot at USC wearing only sneakers
and a Spuds McKenzie beach towel around my neck (yelling "SCIENCE!" at the
top of my lungs for reasons that now escape me)...does that count as wearing
a cloak? 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 10:11:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Aug  6 09:11:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
In-Reply-To: <3D4F7A61.BA9F032E@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028650204.113.ajackson@ping>

David Shayne writes:

> Standard densities. With Earth = 1. Doesn't look so horibly wrong now
> does it? 

Ok, that's not as bad.  

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 10:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Aug  6 09:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <p0433010cb974db4e1b41@[198.123.22.180]>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028650656.7515.ajackson@ping>

David P. Summers writes:

> You are assuming close packed spheres.

Actually, I'm assuming a flat 'shell' of fighters.  Volume covered is actually
third order in range.
> ground per sensor by moveing around).  Also, If you take sensor input 
> from multiple sensors and combine them, it is possible to generate 
> detection of things that couldn't be detected within the range of 
> anyone sensor.

GURPS doesn't really cover array sensors (if you're going to apply that bit of
realism, there's a lot of other realism tweaks you can make as well), but
interferometry really isn't going to help much with deep space detection, as
(a) it mostly improves resolution, not sensitivity, and (b) it massively
reduces coverage, meaning you're likely to miss objects entirely due to looking
in the wrong direction.
 
>  Lastly, the advantage that a fighter gives only its 
> own position, and not that of the capital ship, if it is caught first 
> is non-trivial

If stealth were particularly meaningful or interesting in space, sure.  In
practice, having multiple small ships just guarantees you'll be spotted, due to
other quirks in the sensor rules.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 10:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Aug  6 09:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020806201901.C28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028651185.1051.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:

> > with the Vehicles system beam weapons in space have no Acc cap,
> 
> However, in the Vehicles rules maximum accuracy bonus is limited to
> Gunnery skill, in this case 25.

Nope, the Vehicles rule is that the Acc bonus is not limited by Gunnery skill.

> How *big* a canister round?
> 
> You need to disable the missiles about 600 miles out, and they will
> probably be approaching from a region 200 miles across at that
> distance.

Huh?  At 600 miles, they're 2 seconds out; assuming 12G missiles, they can
travel up to 240 meters in that time, which means all the missiles need to be
within an area that small.  Assuming a missile is 0.3 meters across, I need to
set up a cloud of about a million objects.  At 300 miles per second, a 1mm
warhead does 6dx110 (which will oneshot missiles), so a 250mm warhead
(equivalent to a single missile) should be able to scatter on the order of 15
million bead, which is plenty to cover the required area at a high level of
reliability.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 10:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 09:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <74.20e88a02.2a814935@aol.com>

--part1_74.20e88a02.2a814935_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Now that our good news is out in the public, it might be a good time to 
mention
that I've set up a Yahoo! discussion group for current and potential GURPS
Traveller freelancers. The home page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gtfreelance/

This isn't the *only* channel one can use to get information to and from me,
to be sure -- email to jon@sjgames.com works fine too! Still, I hope to use 
the
discussion group to help get news out and to work with authors to plan future
releases. If you're interested in writing for GURPS Traveller, you're more 
than
welcome to sign on.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

--part1_74.20e88a02.2a814935_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Now that our good news is out in the public, it might be a good time to mention
<BR>that I've set up a Yahoo! discussion group for current and potential GURPS
<BR>Traveller freelancers. The home page is at:
<BR>
<BR>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gtfreelance/
<BR>
<BR>This isn't the *only* channel one can use to get information to and from me,
<BR>to be sure -- email to jon@sjgames.com works fine too! Still, I hope to use the
<BR>discussion group to help get news out and to work with authors to plan future
<BR>releases. If you're interested in writing for GURPS Traveller, you're more than
<BR>welcome to sign on.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_74.20e88a02.2a814935_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 10:33:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 09:33:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <74.20e88a02.2a814935@aol.com>

--part1_74.20e88a02.2a814935_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Now that our good news is out in the public, it might be a good time to 
mention
that I've set up a Yahoo! discussion group for current and potential GURPS
Traveller freelancers. The home page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gtfreelance/

This isn't the *only* channel one can use to get information to and from me,
to be sure -- email to jon@sjgames.com works fine too! Still, I hope to use 
the
discussion group to help get news out and to work with authors to plan future
releases. If you're interested in writing for GURPS Traveller, you're more 
than
welcome to sign on.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

--part1_74.20e88a02.2a814935_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Now that our good news is out in the public, it might be a good time to mention
<BR>that I've set up a Yahoo! discussion group for current and potential GURPS
<BR>Traveller freelancers. The home page is at:
<BR>
<BR>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gtfreelance/
<BR>
<BR>This isn't the *only* channel one can use to get information to and from me,
<BR>to be sure -- email to jon@sjgames.com works fine too! Still, I hope to use the
<BR>discussion group to help get news out and to work with authors to plan future
<BR>releases. If you're interested in writing for GURPS Traveller, you're more than
<BR>welcome to sign on.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 10:36:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 09:36:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <74.20e88a02.2a814935@aol.com>

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Now that our good news is out in the public, it might be a good time to 
mention
that I've set up a Yahoo! discussion group for current and potential GURPS
Traveller freelancers. The home page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gtfreelance/

This isn't the *only* channel one can use to get information to and from me,
to be sure -- email to jon@sjgames.com works fine too! Still, I hope to use 
the
discussion group to help get news out and to work with authors to plan future
releases. If you're interested in writing for GURPS Traveller, you're more 
than
welcome to sign on.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Now that our good news is out in the public, it might be a good time to mention
<BR>that I've set up a Yahoo! discussion group for current and potential GURPS
<BR>Traveller freelancers. The home page is at:
<BR>
<BR>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gtfreelance/
<BR>
<BR>This isn't the *only* channel one can use to get information to and from me,
<BR>to be sure -- email to jon@sjgames.com works fine too! Still, I hope to use the
<BR>discussion group to help get news out and to work with authors to plan future
<BR>releases. If you're interested in writing for GURPS Traveller, you're more than
<BR>welcome to sign on.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 10:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Aug  6 09:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15E5@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

What about artists?  ;)
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: JFZeigler@aol.com [mailto:JFZeigler@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 8:46 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .


Now that our good news is out in the public, it might be a good time to mention 
that I've set up a Yahoo! discussion group for current and potential GURPS 
Traveller freelancers. The home page is at: 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gtfreelance/ 

This isn't the *only* channel one can use to get information to and from me, 
to be sure -- email to jon@sjgames.com works fine too! Still, I hope to use the 
discussion group to help get news out and to work with authors to plan future 
releases. If you're interested in writing for GURPS Traveller, you're more than 
welcome to sign on. 

---------- 
Jon F. Zeigler 
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller 
jon@sjgames.com 
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events." 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 11:33:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Aug  6 10:33:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The big fleet debate
Message-ID: <20020806173248.66761.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>

>What is the view toward using nukes for point defense?  Is it OK 
>since it is "defensive"?  I think the Imperium wouldn't allow it 
>(why do you have a nuke in the first place?) and it would only
>matter for fleet battles anyway...  So it would come down to any
>agreements, unspoken or otherwise, between the major powers (Impies
>vs Zhos, Impies vs Solos, Hivers vs the K'Kree) and whether it is
>seen as provoking retaliation.

I think you're mixing apples and oranges a little there.  Here are
the categories I see:

I. War between Imperial member states
A. On a world:  Possession or use of nuclear weapons for any purpose
will trigger Imperial intervention.  The underlying reason is that
any use of nuclear weapons, offensive or defensive, will irreparably
harm the world.
B. In space:  Nuclear weapons are allowed, but only limited commerce
raiding is allowed.  

II.  War between the Imperium and another state:  Anything goes, as
there is no general convention on warfare.  The objectives of the
warring parties determine how destructive they will be.  A state
seeking to take territory from another is unlikely to render the
target territory valueless.  A state seeking to create a buffer
between itself and a neighbor may think that a swath of dead and
barren systems is the best defense, but, on the other hand, may think
that thriving, independent systems are better.  

If one state starts destroying the surfaces of another's worlds, it
must accept that the other state will be able to jump past its
defenses and destroy the surface of its worlds as well.  There is
something of a balance of terror among the major states.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 11:40:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Aug  6 10:40:14 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Arbellatra
Message-ID: <20020806173952.59128.qmail@web20418.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Fred Ramen" <von_rammen@msn.com>

>My interpretation may also explain her meteoric rise to high command

>at such a young age--perhaps her title of Grand Admiral of the
>Marches was a ceremonial one, or rank was determined by noble
>standing to a much greater degree in the antebellum Imperium. 
>(Indeed, perhaps Arbellatra reformed the military to make it more
>egalitarian, not only to prevent a rival from rising in a fashion 
>like her own, but to insure loyalty to the Emperor and the Imperium 
>and not the individual commander, as seems to be the case with
>Plankwell and the other Emperors of the Flag.)

A few years ago (maybe more than a few -- I think it was 1996 or so),
I posted an idea to the TML that the antebellum Imperial Navy
followed a feudal model, in which warships, squadrons, and fleets
were in effect fiefs.  The Admiral was also a Duke, and was
responsible for raising the fleet, which meant paying for it.  His or
her Counts were commodores, his Marquises captains, and so on.  Thus
every crew member was a vassal owing loyalty to his or her commanding
officer.  One of Arbellatra's principal reforms was to develop a
professional navy, better suited to defending against ihatei and
Zhodani than fighting over the crown.

--Glenn


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 12:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Aug  6 11:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <20020806180404.28551.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng)

>This probably displays the depths of my ignorance, but can anybody 
>give me a description of how a unit's change of command ceremony
>goes?  I am looking specifically for the US Navy's protocol, but any
>nation or service is welcomed.

I had the good fortune to watch my high school friend Col. Steven R.
Corbett, U.S.A., assume command of the 91st support something or
other brigade at Fort Lewis, Washington, on 14 September 2001.  The
ceremony went something like this:

At the parade ground, seats had been set up under awnings on either
side of the reviewing stand.  The reviewing stand had a podium and
microphone, and there were big speakers somewhere.  

The guests, military and civilian, took seats at their own pace.  The
military personnel were wearing camouflage; the civilians dressed
casually.  I didn't see anyone in a dress uniform that day.  

The members of the brigade formed up in units on the parade ground. 
There were eight or ten units, each with its commanding officer in
front.  There were about 100 people in each unit, suggesting that the
units were companies.  

A mid-level officer (hereinafter the MC) opened the ceremonies by
welcoming everyone and announcing the national anthem.  We stood
while a recording of the national anthem played.  At some point
around then, the color guard marched onto the parade ground from the
audience's left, stopping and facing right at the reviewing stand. 
The colors included the national flag, the brigade's flag, and two
other unit flags (I think of subordinate units within the brigade).  

The base commander had a few remarks to welcome Col. Corbett and wish
the best for his retiring predecessor (whose name I have forgotten). 
The outgoing and incoming commanders then gave brief speeches; I
don't recall who went first.  Then the outgoing commander took the
incoming commander on an inspection of the formation.  They walked
around the entire unit clockwise while martial music played.  No,
they did not play the Liberty Bell March, although those of us in the
audience who had gone to high school together were expecting it.

During the inspection, the MC gave us a little background on the
medieval origins of the inspection.  

When the inspection was completed, the outgoing CO asked Col. Corbett
if he accepted the brigade, and Col. Corbett said that he did.  Then
the brigade's senior NCO and the base commander came out onto the
parade ground and passed the unit flag around as the four of them
stood in a circle.  If I recall correctly, the base commander passed
the flag to the senior NCO, who passed it to the outgoing CO, who
passed it to the new CO, who passed it back to the senior NCO.  The
flagpole crossed each CO's heart, signifying his willingness to give
his life for the unit and to do his utmost for its welfare.  

Then the color guard took back the flags, and the four guys returned
to the reviewing stand.  The base commander had a few closing
remarks, and then they played martial music as the color guard left
the field, followed by each of the other units.  

Then all of the military personnel went back to work.  Early in the
evening, the new CO threw a big barbecue at his house on post, and we
all ate and drank too much.

--Glenn



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 12:50:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Donald McKinney)
Date: Tue Aug  6 11:50:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Cleon V (was Arbellatra)
Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E03668975@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com>

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Actually, much more interesting than Arbellatra, is her direct predecessor, Cleon V.

Cleon V appointed Arbellatra to the troublesome position as Grand Admiral of the Marches, restored Imperial rule over the Sylean Core region, and basically, restored Imperial rule - except that a few Admirals and Nobles weren't ready for it yet, and they betrayed him.

Arbellatra's shoving Gustus off the throne is totally legitimate, as she's simply fulfilling her role as Cleon V's last supporter. 

Interestingly enough, a few years ago I wrote a brief document for my personal use, entertaining the notion that Arbellatra was Cleon V's naval attache, companion and close personal friend, that sending her to the Marches was because he truly felt that the Marches would need the best commander he could send against the Zhodani, and that when Arbellatra returned to the Core, it was all the anger of a lover that pushed her to do it.  I also explained the elevation of Archduke Soegz as the replacement of one of Emperor Joseph's (the man who defeated Cleon V, I hope I'm remembering right) backers...

The minute the Zhodani and Vargr were defeated and capable nobles in place to hold against them (like the Marquis of Regina), she turned her forces around and went back to Core...

I also used a Dreadnought named the "Cleon V" as the Corridor Fleet's flagship :)


DonM.

--__--__--

Message: 8
From: "Fred Ramen" <von_rammen@msn.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 22:03:33 -0400
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra (WAS: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes:

"Dibs Arbellatra.  One of my favorite people in Traveller history.  Someday
I'd love to write a sourcebook for the Arbellatra Regency."

Aye, mine too. Such a book might finally answer the question of just what
kind of leader she was.

IMHO, the model for Arbellatra is Augustus--not Julius--Caesar. That is, she
was more a illiant politician than a brilliant general. I base this on a few
factors:

1) She essentially lost the 2FW but still managed to declare victory and
mobilize the Marches behind her. (Remember, the Imperium ceded territory to
the Zhodani after the war, and Library Data mentions that the final
engagement resulted in a "stalemate" between the two sides. She basically
one the war the same way the U.S. "won" the War of 1812--by not losing as
badly as expected.)

2) It seems doubtful to me that even after a decade of civil war her
provincial fleet could cow the Vland Sector Fleet--yet she must have had the
cooperation of Vland sector, as others have pointed out, in order to
triumph. Again, this demonstrates her political acumen.

3) Her masterly stroke of refusing the crown is remarkably similar to
Augustus' own "retirement" from government--while in truth retaining a firm
grip on the reins of power. (The people of Rome demanded at one point that
he publish a list of candidates he favored, so they would know who to vote
for--not from coercion, but from a devotion to Augustus.)

My interpretation may also explain her meteoric rise to high command at such
a young age--perhaps her title of Grand Admiral of the Marches was a
ceremonial one, or rank was determined by noble standing to a much greater
degree in the antebellum Imperium. (Indeed, perhaps Arbellatra reformed the
military to make it more egalitarian, not only to prevent a rival from
rising in a fashion like her own, but to insure loyalty to the Emperor and
the Imperium and not the individual commander, as seems to be the case with
Plankwell and the other Emperors of the Flag.)

Fred "Arbellatra Divina" Ramen
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 12:51:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Tue Aug  6 11:51:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Landgrab
References: <B9742E4B.68481%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000201c23d7a$64a16b40$b300a8c0@imogen>

Does anyone have (or know of) some software  or  spreadsheet  for
creating ground vehicles using MT rules?  I need to create  about
a dozen different military vehicles for my Efate landgrab.

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 12:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Burns)
Date: Tue Aug  6 11:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
Message-ID: <20020806185605.50939.qmail@web10605.mail.yahoo.com>

I've been following this thread with some interest and
wondering if I should throw in my .02 crimps or not.
The reason for my interest is I'm in a PBEM TNE game
where we were given a few (24 ISTR) mines by our
handlers. So I went here:

http://www.downport.com/bard/bard/bardvera.html

and scrolling down to section 6500 - Satellites
checked out the mines and boosters listed there. I
never thought to check that the design was solid but
it looks good enough.

Anyway, given our mission and limited mines, I'm
thinking we'll use them one of two ways.

First as pursuit deterrents (drop one or two to drift
back along our vector and either the purser takes fire
and/or must manuever around buying us time to get
away. I'm trusting that even if he does spot one a
commander has to assume there may be more, and if one
blows up in his face same thing.

Second as 'debris' around any sensitive sights we find
to secure it till we get back, or to protect our
report drops till they are picked up by the courier,
who will have the disarming codes too.

I'm just getting back into TNE after a lot of years so
I still have to check the sensor rules but at least in
TNE I think spotting these things is going to be very
tough. Unlike GT where it seems you can spot those
nasty c-rocks at a few parsecs while they are ramped
up to speed, note the entry to j-space and be waiting
for the emergence a week later which will also show up
easily, right in the middle of your defence solution.
Oops, a rant? Well at least 'twas short ;)

Dan "far-trader" Burns

______________________________________________________________________ 
Post your ad for free now! http://personals.yahoo.ca

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:02:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:02:04 2002
Subject: [TML] J-4 X-boats, a justification
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEBGILAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Many people argue about many aspects of the X boat system,
saying that there are some less then optimal chooses in it's
makeup.

This is one possible argument in keeping the J-4 aspect to the
system.  The Xboat system is a part of a communication's system
designed with military and official communications in mind.  While
postal unions and private merchants carry cargo of one type or
another as mail, a great deal of information is carried in electronic
form.  Getting information to a patrolling cruisron, informing
a Marine TF that their services are needed, relaying the answer to
a question of Gribble Bugs in the Groats are things that need to
relayed to worlds off the Xboat network.  To do this regular off
the rack Type 's' scouts are employed,  By spacing Xboat stations no more
then jump four apart, a message can be broadcast to all worlds along a
Xboat trunk in one shot.  With communications delays as long as they
are already leaving holes in between xboat stations that require an
extra week or two to reach outlying badly compromised to utility of the
system.

I see an X boat station as a headquarters, a ground based station, the
assigned tenders and Xboats, and a flock of regular scouts assigned to the
station, in theory with enough scout to reach all systems within range in
one
shot, more likely with enough to hit all type C or better ports, important
installations and systems the navy says are likely to hold units on patrol.
At the same time a number of boats also float between systems, trying to
hit all systems or a frequent basis.  these are the boat that are routinely
performing donation studies, re surveys, update investigations and so forth.

these are the boats that are slated to end up in detached scout's hands,
having served as front line scouts then courier scout already.



________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:23:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:23:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Ok, now what
Message-ID: <200208061922.MEZ12591@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

First I keep reading that plasma weapons are not possible - 
the bolt would dissipate a short distance from the barrel.  
And now, at the tail end of the following article, 

http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/channel_awst.jsp?
view=story&id=news/aw080524.xml

I read that a plasma weapon is possible.
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:39:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:39:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <0964D40E.1498BB17.02280B06@aol.com>

Okay, that was strange.

I actually sent three *different* messages to the TML this
morning, and what appeared was three copies of the same
message. Fortunately, that was the only message that
absolutely had to get out, so no harm done. Go figure.

Thanks for your patience, everyone.

---------- 
Jon F. Zeigler 
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller 
jon@sjgames.com 
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:42:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:42:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Airsoft shooter
Message-ID: <B9757480.689C1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

I need to get educated about airsoft guns.  Any airsoft enthusiasts on the
tml, please contact me off list if you don't mind answering some stupid
questions.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:44:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:44:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra (WAS: warship optimization in traveller
 CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <00fa01c23ced$9eedde60$331df7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020806113510.45efd91c@pop.mindspring.com>

At 10:03 PM 8/5/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes:
>
>"Dibs Arbellatra.  One of my favorite people in Traveller history.  Someday
>I'd love to write a sourcebook for the Arbellatra Regency."
>
>Aye, mine too. Such a book might finally answer the question of just what
>kind of leader she was.

Focusing on Core during the Regency would be a big factor.  Starting at the
refusal of the crown, with pretenders and factions still fighting, to her
gracious assumption of the title of Empress.  A great deal happened in the
seven years between 622 and 629.

>IMHO, the model for Arbellatra is Augustus--not Julius--Caesar. That is, she
>was more a illiant politician than a brilliant general. I base this on a few
>factors:

Good model.  I was thinking a bit of Hitler, personally.  Same kind of
personal magnetism.

>1) She essentially lost the 2FW but still managed to declare victory and
>mobilize the Marches behind her. (Remember, the Imperium ceded territory to
>the Zhodani after the war, and Library Data mentions that the final
>engagement resulted in a "stalemate" between the two sides. She basically
>one the war the same way the U.S. "won" the War of 1812--by not losing as
>badly as expected.)

This might have come from misunderstanding Zhodani war goals.  Arbellatra
probably knew from the start that the Zhodani wanted to remove the Imperium
from Zhodani territory, not destroy the Imperium.  But playing up the image
of the Zho's as barbarians helped her cause.  A draw was as good as a
victory to her.

>2) It seems doubtful to me that even after a decade of civil war her
>provincial fleet could cow the Vland Sector Fleet--yet she must have had the
>cooperation of Vland sector, as others have pointed out, in order to
>triumph. Again, this demonstrates her political acumen.

She had a good line.  In this aspect, she's much like St. Jean d'Arc.  The
"Maid of Mora" driving to restore the Imperium!  She would find ready
converts in Deneb and Corridor. She probably played a different game with
the Vilani.  Promises of increased power in the court, culminating with her
son's marriage to a Vilani noblewoman in 679.  As she drew closer to
Capital, I'm sure that pretender fleets defected en masse rather than face
annihilation.

>3) Her masterly stroke of refusing the crown is remarkably similar to
>Augustus' own "retirement" from government--while in truth retaining a firm
>grip on the reins of power. (The people of Rome demanded at one point that
>he publish a list of candidates he favored, so they would know who to vote
>for--not from coercion, but from a devotion to Augustus.)

It is her that I am of two minds..  I sort of like the idea that she
honestly meant to find a surviving Zhunastu heir; only taking the throne
when that proved impossible.

>My interpretation may also explain her meteoric rise to high command at such
>a young age--perhaps her title of Grand Admiral of the Marches was a
>ceremonial one, or rank was determined by noble standing to a much greater
>degree in the antebellum Imperium. (Indeed, perhaps Arbellatra reformed the
>military to make it more egalitarian, not only to prevent a rival from
>rising in a fashion like her own, but to insure loyalty to the Emperor and
>the Imperium and not the individual commander, as seems to be the case with
>Plankwell and the other Emperors of the Flag.)

"Nothing succeeds like success" they say.  I've always sensed that along
with being politically brilliant, she was possibly the greatest strategic
and tactical mind the Imperium ever saw.  She was only 28 when the war
broke out, according to canon.  I'd prefer to push her date of birth back
to 567, making her 48 at the beginning of the war.  This at least gives her
the age to have had a fairly long career and been at least an experienced
Captain or junior Admiral.  This would, IMHO, make her seizure of the
fleets far more acceptable.  No one is going to listen to a pup of a Ltd.
Commander.

I think the title of Grand Admiral was given to her for no better reason
than she knew how to fight.  Look at all the generals that Lincoln broke
before finding Grant. She demonstrated the ability to win.  Before that,
the post maybe had been more political, but consider the event of the 1FW,
I somehow doubt it.  The Marches had just been cursed with a string of bad
leaders.

Wit my revised birth year, she is now 48 when the 2FW breaks out, 53 when
it ends.  She had to leave before the end of the war, since she defeats
Gustus in 622.  Have her, and a small fleet leave in late 618, leaving the
war to a trusted group of under commanders.  The history is murky here.
Perhaps the Zhodani were broken by mid-618, and the last ~18 months were
mopping up and retaking worlds?

She arrives in the Core no later than early 621, when a large armada. Along
the way, she defeats several pretenders, and forces a battle with Gustus at
the Second Battle of Zhimaway.  Proceeding to Capital, she declares herself
regent in late 622, at the age of 55.  Becomes Empress in 629 at 62, Dies
in 666 at 99.  Marries late, first son born in 624.

Does this time line work for people?
-- 

Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.
gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html

Author of GT: Ground Forces                               

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:45:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:45:49 2002
Subject: [TML] GURPS Interstellar Wars
In-Reply-To: <20020806.081920.-291705.0.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020806113717.35e7dade@pop.mindspring.com>

At 08:19 AM 8/6/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>Many of you have probably already run across this, but for those who
>haven't, check out Evil Stevie's Daily Illuminator
>(http://www.sjgames.com/ill/) for the 8/6/02 entry.

Note to self:  Check the author solicitation page when the good computer
gets home today...

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:47:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:47:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNGEMBEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <3.0.5.16.20020805112347.358f6ef0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020806114206.364f75c8@pop.mindspring.com>

At 08:57 PM 8/5/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>>Here's a fun game to play if you have Ground Forces.  You are a Force
>>Lieutenant assigned to a Caen-class ship.  You are lying in your bunk, and
>>feeling a bit peckish.  How do you get to the officer's mess?  :)

>Let me start by saying I absolutely love 95% of Ground Forces. I think the
>colors great. I like everything from the unit structure information, to the
>battledress designs, to the modular grav design system.

Thanks, and a tip'o the helmet to David Pulver for the MVD system.

>The one thing I can't stand is the ship designs. I loath the Caen. Among
>other problems: Where are the navy ratings bunked? They certainly wouldn't
>be with the Marines, not since the rest of canon says that they should be
>living in staterooms, which I would suppose are separate from the officer's
>staterooms. I could go on and on about the failings of the design, but I
>don't want to rant.

I have problems with the Caen deckplans myself.  It was designed as a very
"close" ship, and I did put in that the rest of the Navy thinks the crews
that work the Caens are oddballs.  If you have an improved design, I'd love
to see it.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:49:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:49:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15E5@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020806114452.35e793a8@pop.mindspring.com>

At 09:43 AM 8/6/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>What about artists?  ;)

Back in your hole, polygon boy!  When we want something from you, we'll do
the usual thing.  Toss a contract and art specs in your cage and pray you
don't ruin our finely crafted prose with your "art."

:)
-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of
limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:50:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:50:57 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  The cloak
In-Reply-To: <20020806004801.59831.qmail@web20422.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020806114720.4637dd7c@pop.mindspring.com>

At 05:48 PM 8/5/2002 -0700, you wrote:

>ca. 1100s, they are in fashion at the Imperial court, and therefore
>commonly worn by nobles everywhere.  Commoners only wear them when
>the weather demands it.

I'd think that fashion would trickle down, and you see knock-offs of famous
designers and K-Martish places with their own lines.

IMTU, they're common.  Useful things, cloaks.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:52:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:52:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <159.120df85e.2a809f36@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020806115248.35e748b0@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:40 PM 8/5/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>I would agree.  But as you will observe in Afghanistan (and arguably Serbia) 
>they did it by putting someone else's young men into the mud -- and not all 
>that many of those.  I seem to remember something along those lines in 
>Gibbons ....

That army was just laying there...

Seriously, from our point of view, Afghanistan was as close to a perfect
situation as you can get.  All we had to do was provide air & logisitcal
support, and the population in the are being attacked wasn't too thrilled
with the current government.  They all aren't going to be that way.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:53:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:53:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <20020806021137.13bb35092d5d49ae9344179b452c1788.in@keywest
 .kennett.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020806120321.46dfdc16@pop.mindspring.com>

At 02:13 AM 8/6/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>Hi,
>
>This probably displays the depths of my ignorance, but can anybody give me a
>description of how a unit's change of command ceremony goes?  I am looking
>specifically for the US Navy's protocol, but any nation or service is
welcomed.

Well, from my point of view, an Army change of command ceremony (c. 1985)
consists of the following:

1. Polish brass.

2. Drop off dress greens at dry cleaners.

3. Hear that the order has been changed, we'll be in battle gear.

4. Curse about blowing $15 on dry cleaning.

5. Drop off good BDUs at dry cleaners.  (Good meaning these puppies will
never see the field, and are worn only for inspections.)

6. Pay some kid at the PX ten bucks to spit shine my jump boots.

7. Run to Ranger Joe's for clean TA-50 pieces.

8. Get haircut.

9. Practise marching.

10. Get assigned to be a roadgaurd again, due to lack of marching ability.

11. Get inspected.

12. March to Brigade parade ground.

13. Stand in formation.

14. Old Bastard makes a speech.

15. Wonder what difference all this marching will make when the Soviets
come over the border.

16. Something involving the unit colors, but you can't see.

17. New Bastard makes a speech.  Officers love to make speeches.

18. Fall asleep at attention.

19. Wake up at Parade Rest.

20. March back to barracks, replace dart board picture of Old Bastard with
New Bastard, get drunk.

(I'm in a silly mood today.)
-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Animals who are not penguins can only wish they were.
-Chicago reader, 10/15/82

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:55:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:55:14 2002
Subject: [TML] The cloak
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D1C@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020806120600.46dfd798@pop.mindspring.com>

At 10:40 AM 8/6/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>I once ran through the Maxcy dorm parking lot at USC wearing only sneakers
>and a Spuds McKenzie beach towel around my neck (yelling "SCIENCE!" at the
>top of my lungs for reasons that now escape me)...does that count as wearing
>a cloak? 

No, but it will count against you at the commitment hearing...
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"Genetically" we are nearly identical to fruit flies.  On the
other hand, as a species we write better string quartets. 
				- Rich Clancey


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:57:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:57:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <2BD831D2.5F2F4C54.02280B06@aol.com>

> What about artists?  ;)

Hey, Jesse. Artists are more than welcome to join the
Yahoo! group too, although you should be aware that art
is Not My Department. Any queries about art for the GT
line will probably end up being passed along to other
people at SJG.

---------- 
Jon F. Zeigler 
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller 
jon@sjgames.com 
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:59:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:59:11 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
References: <200208061208.MEL01964@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D50270F.5080001@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:

> This is the Sagan hypothesis - that sufficiently advanced 
> alien life forms will have learned to be "peaceful".  There 
> is no reason that this has to be so.  If a warlike species 
> came to be dominated by a single high tech faction, through 
> limited nuclear war and genocidal action, and used this high 
> technology to permanently dominate and subjugate its 
> population, it would survive its birth into a nuclear age and 
> birth into a starfaring age.

Give the history of such factions here, I rather doubt that this is the 
case. If these sentients are anything like humans, they do not have the 
infinite capacity for evil you presuppose.

Humans have proven to be very good at routing around opression, and 
eroding it from it's weak points.

Even the total police states of Romania and East Germany fell, sometimes 
in a matter of *weeks*, once the Soviet threat was shown to be hollow. 
As brutal as the Sucuritat was, and the fact htat they had pretty much 
co-opted the entire Romanian population into their web of informants, 
they dissolved into a scattering of scared bullies, trying to outrun the 
lynch mobs.

Rome *was* a high-tech faction that ruled through genocidal action (when 
needed) It's hegemony lasted only a few hundred years, and then only 
over a rather small area of the world.

Your *perfect evil dictator* is unlikely to ever exist. Whilst they 
might make for pretty tale in SF novels, the history of our planet 
towards such hegemony does not support this.

High-tech communications almost guarantees this...look at the struggles 
opressive regimes here have with the now humble fax machine, let alone 
the internet.

A regime that had such total control over information would unlikely be 
able to manage the technologicical advances needed to get much beyond LEO.

You cannot simultaneously restrict the flow of information and maintain 
a growing 'research economy', any more than you can manage a monetaryu 
economy the same way. (The other reason the Soviets fell)

After all, who won the race to the moon?

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:01:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (markc@peak.org)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:01:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <18690-22002826195016420@M2W075.mail2web.com>

Jesse DeGraff <Jesse=2EDeGraff@netapp=2Ecom> writes:

> What about artists?  ;)

Sure, why not?  Do you know any? >^)

    - Mark C=2E

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:03:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:03:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15EC@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

No more grav tanks you Penguin Boy ;)

And that should read:
"When we want something from you, we'll do the usual thing.  *At the last minute,* toss a contract and, *if you're lucky*, art specs in your cage and pray you don't ruin our finely crafted prose with your "art."

Jesse


-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas E. Berry [mailto:gridlore@pop.mindspring.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 4:45 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .


At 09:43 AM 8/6/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>What about artists?  ;)

Back in your hole, polygon boy!  When we want something from you, we'll do
the usual thing.  Toss a contract and art specs in your cage and pray you
don't ruin our finely crafted prose with your "art."

:)
-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of
limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:06:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:06:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15EE@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Gee, ALL the clowns are coming out of the woodwork ;)  BTW, is the December shoot going to happen?
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: markc@peak.org [mailto:markc@peak.org]
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 12:50 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .


Jesse DeGraff <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> writes:

> What about artists?  ;)

Sure, why not?  Do you know any? >^)

    - Mark C.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:08:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:08:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020806120321.46dfdc16@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020806200438.2448.qmail@web11004.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
wrote:
> At 02:13 AM 8/6/2002 -0400, you wrote:
> >Hi,
> >
> >This probably displays the depths of my ignorance,
> but can anybody give me a
> >description of how a unit's change of command
> ceremony goes?  I am looking
> >specifically for the US Navy's protocol, but any
> nation or service is
> welcomed.
> 
> Well, from my point of view, an Army change of
> command ceremony (c. 1985)
> consists of the following:
> 
> 1. Polish brass.
> 
> 2. Drop off dress greens at dry cleaners.
> 
> 3. Hear that the order has been changed, we'll be in
> battle gear.
> 
> 4. Curse about blowing $15 on dry cleaning.
> 
> 5. Drop off good BDUs at dry cleaners.  (Good
> meaning these puppies will
> never see the field, and are worn only for
> inspections.)
> 
> 6. Pay some kid at the PX ten bucks to spit shine my
> jump boots.
> 
> 7. Run to Ranger Joe's for clean TA-50 pieces.
> 
> 8. Get haircut.
> 
> 9. Practise marching.
> 
> 10. Get assigned to be a roadgaurd again, due to
> lack of marching ability.
> 
> 11. Get inspected.
> 
> 12. March to Brigade parade ground.
> 
> 13. Stand in formation.
> 
> 14. Old Bastard makes a speech.
> 
> 15. Wonder what difference all this marching will
> make when the Soviets
> come over the border.
> 
> 16. Something involving the unit colors, but you
> can't see.
> 
> 17. New Bastard makes a speech.  Officers love to
> make speeches.
> 
> 18. Fall asleep at attention.
> 
> 19. Wake up at Parade Rest.
> 
> 20. March back to barracks, replace dart board
> picture of Old Bastard with
> New Bastard, get drunk.
> 
> (I'm in a silly mood today.)
> -- 
> 
> Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
>   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
> 
  >>
  Yeah....but your memory is about as good as mine. 

  OTOH, if it wasn't for my dazzling marching skills,
I'd have never gotten out of so much work.....that,
and the fact that I jumped to voluteer for it, knowing
in advance that selections were being made for mess
duty that day.......

  Michael "Hide & Slide" Cessna
  Box-kicker Supreme
  >>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:14:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:14:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020806113510.45efd91c@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <3.0.5.16.20020806113510.45efd91c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m3u1m7oie8.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes:

> She was only 28 when the war broke out, according to canon.  I'd
> prefer to push her date of birth back to 567, making her 48 at the
> beginning of the war.  This at least gives her the age to have had a
> fairly long career and been at least an experienced Captain or
> junior Admiral.  This would, IMHO, make her seizure of the fleets
> far more acceptable.  No one is going to listen to a pup of a Ltd.
> Commander.

They will if she's That Good.  Perhaps in the IN of the time,
midshipmen were inducted at 13.  Also, recall that we're talking about
the military of a feudal state; if one shows great promise, there's no
inherent reason one might not rise _very_ quickly.  Same if one's the
girlfriend of an Emperor...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Digital files cannot be made uncopyable, any more than water can be made
not wet.                   --Bruce Schneier on `copy protection' schemes

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:23:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:23:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020806173248.66761.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020806173248.66761.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p04330104b975de6771f8@[143.232.119.186]>

At 10:32 AM -0700 8/6/02, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>I. War between Imperial member states
>A. On a world:  Possession or use of nuclear weapons for any purpose
>will trigger Imperial intervention.  The underlying reason is that
>any use of nuclear weapons, offensive or defensive, will irreparably
>harm the world.
>B. In space:  Nuclear weapons are allowed, but only limited commerce
>raiding is allowed.

Isn't the _possession_ of nuke illegal (the Traveller Adventure has 
nuke anti-ship missils as being illegal).  That is what I would do, 
since I'm not sure you want anyone to be in a postion to nuke a 
planet....

>II.  War between the Imperium and another state:  Anything goes, as
>there is no general convention on warfare.  The objectives of the
>warring parties determine how destructive they will be.  A state
>seeking to take territory from another is unlikely to render the
>target territory valueless.  A state seeking to create a buffer
>between itself and a neighbor may think that a swath of dead and
>barren systems is the best defense, but, on the other hand, may think
>that thriving, independent systems are better.

Of course limited by unspoken agreements and threats of retaliation.

>
>If one state starts destroying the surfaces of another's worlds, it
>must accept that the other state will be able to jump past its
>defenses and destroy the surface of its worlds as well.  There is
>something of a balance of terror among the major states.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:24:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:24:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15E5@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15E5@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <p04330105b975df61ad02@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:43 AM -0700 8/6/02, DeGraff, Jesse wrote:
>What about artists?  ;)
>Jesse


Do you have any experience?  :-)
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:31:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff D. Greenly)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:31:18 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <sd4ff8f8.002@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>

Keeping in mind that it's been a while...

A Naval change of command reflects the fact that the Captain of the
vessel/unit/whatever IS the vessel/unit/whatever. So, the departing
officer is "piped aboard" to the podium and announced as "<Unit Name>,
arriving" He gives his speech to the hands, then the ship's bell is rung
(even in a land station) and he is "piped over the side" and announced
by his name and rank. The new officer goes through the same thing in
reverse. He/She is announced by name and rank, gives a speech, then is
announced as "<unit name>, departing" and the ships bell is rung. There
are a bunch of salutes and "permission to come aboard, sirs" and so on,
but the one essential fact to remember is that the new and old
commmanding officers are changing their identities. "USS Rochester,
Arriving" goes back to being Commander Schmuck, USN, and Commander
Foobar becomes "USS Rochester" Just as a interesting side note, they've
been doing an abbreviated form of this aboard the Space Station,
although it's not really a change of command. There's a ship's bell on
board and it's rung when the Shuttle docks up or breaks away with the
announcement "<ShuttleName>, Arriving (or Departing)" 

I think that because the Imperial Navy has such a long history, it
probably has a lot of cool traditions. Anything that you threw in for
color, like Marines in some traditional dress uniforms standing behind
the "quarterdeck", the transfer of a baton, staff or whistle, maybe a
reading of the ship's history...

Jeff

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:36:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:36:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra (WAS: warship optimization in traveller
 CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020806113510.45efd91c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208061330150.8694-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 6 Aug 2002, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> >IMHO, the model for Arbellatra is Augustus--not Julius--Caesar. That is, she
> >was more a illiant politician than a brilliant general. I base this on a few
> >factors:

Please don't make her so much of a hypocritical prig.

> Good model.  I was thinking a bit of Hitler, personally.  Same kind of
> personal magnetism.

EEK!!!  But I like Arbellatra!

> >1) She essentially lost the 2FW but still managed to declare victory and
> >mobilize the Marches behind her. (Remember, the Imperium ceded territory to
> >the Zhodani after the war, and Library Data mentions that the final
> >engagement resulted in a "stalemate" between the two sides. She basically
> >one the war the same way the U.S. "won" the War of 1812--by not losing as
> >badly as expected.)
> 
> This might have come from misunderstanding Zhodani war goals.  Arbellatra
> probably knew from the start that the Zhodani wanted to remove the Imperium
> from Zhodani territory, not destroy the Imperium.  But playing up the image
> of the Zho's as barbarians helped her cause.  A draw was as good as a
> victory to her.

Ah, yes.

> >2) It seems doubtful to me that even after a decade of civil war her
> >provincial fleet could cow the Vland Sector Fleet--yet she must have had the
> >cooperation of Vland sector, as others have pointed out, in order to
> >triumph. Again, this demonstrates her political acumen.
> 
> She had a good line.  In this aspect, she's much like St. Jean d'Arc.  The
> "Maid of Mora" driving to restore the Imperium!  She would find ready
> converts in Deneb and Corridor. She probably played a different game with
> the Vilani.  Promises of increased power in the court, culminating with her
> son's marriage to a Vilani noblewoman in 679.  As she drew closer to
> Capital, I'm sure that pretender fleets defected en masse rather than face
> annihilation.

I like Arbellatra la Pucelle much better than Arbellatra as Hitler.

> It is her that I am of two minds..  I sort of like the idea that she
> honestly meant to find a surviving Zhunastu heir; only taking the throne
> when that proved impossible.

I do, too.

> I think the title of Grand Admiral was given to her for no better reason
> than she knew how to fight.  

Amen!
 
> She arrives in the Core no later than early 621, when a large armada. Along
> the way, she defeats several pretenders, and forces a battle with Gustus at
> the Second Battle of Zhimaway.  Proceeding to Capital, she declares herself
> regent in late 622, at the age of 55.  Becomes Empress in 629 at 62, Dies
> in 666 at 99.  Marries late, first son born in 624.
> 
> Does this time line work for people?

It will for me.

Kiri :)
**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:55:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:55:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra (WAS: warship optimization in traveller
 CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020806113510.45efd91c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208061330150.8694-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 6 Aug 2002, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> >IMHO, the model for Arbellatra is Augustus--not Julius--Caesar. That is, she
> >was more a illiant politician than a brilliant general. I base this on a few
> >factors:

Please don't make her so much of a hypocritical prig.

> Good model.  I was thinking a bit of Hitler, personally.  Same kind of
> personal magnetism.

EEK!!!  But I like Arbellatra!

> >1) She essentially lost the 2FW but still managed to declare victory and
> >mobilize the Marches behind her. (Remember, the Imperium ceded territory to
> >the Zhodani after the war, and Library Data mentions that the final
> >engagement resulted in a "stalemate" between the two sides. She basically
> >one the war the same way the U.S. "won" the War of 1812--by not losing as
> >badly as expected.)
> 
> This might have come from misunderstanding Zhodani war goals.  Arbellatra
> probably knew from the start that the Zhodani wanted to remove the Imperium
> from Zhodani territory, not destroy the Imperium.  But playing up the image
> of the Zho's as barbarians helped her cause.  A draw was as good as a
> victory to her.

Ah, yes.

> >2) It seems doubtful to me that even after a decade of civil war her
> >provincial fleet could cow the Vland Sector Fleet--yet she must have had the
> >cooperation of Vland sector, as others have pointed out, in order to
> >triumph. Again, this demonstrates her political acumen.
> 
> She had a good line.  In this aspect, she's much like St. Jean d'Arc.  The
> "Maid of Mora" driving to restore the Imperium!  She would find ready
> converts in Deneb and Corridor. She probably played a different game with
> the Vilani.  Promises of increased power in the court, culminating with her
> son's marriage to a Vilani noblewoman in 679.  As she drew closer to
> Capital, I'm sure that pretender fleets defected en masse rather than face
> annihilation.

I like Arbellatra la Pucelle much better than Arbellatra as Hitler.

> It is her that I am of two minds..  I sort of like the idea that she
> honestly meant to find a surviving Zhunastu heir; only taking the throne
> when that proved impossible.

I do, too.

> I think the title of Grand Admiral was given to her for no better reason
> than she knew how to fight.  

Amen!
 
> She arrives in the Core no later than early 621, when a large armada. Along
> the way, she defeats several pretenders, and forces a battle with Gustus at
> the Second Battle of Zhimaway.  Proceeding to Capital, she declares herself
> regent in late 622, at the age of 55.  Becomes Empress in 629 at 62, Dies
> in 666 at 99.  Marries late, first son born in 624.
> 
> Does this time line work for people?

It will for me.

Kiri :)
**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 15:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Tue Aug  6 14:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com> <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net> <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <20020805075953.A24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <3436.64.8.3.28.1028520584.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <20020805215043.E25687@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3D4F3B54.62F77189@mindspring.com>

Timothy Little wrote:
> 
> hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> > There is always the ability to design bigger and faster missiles using
> > GURPS VEHICLES and the guidelines presented with TRAVELLER itself.
> 
> Yes, that's what I'm wondering about.  Do I want to design better
> weapons and tactics for my Traveller game, at the expense of making it
> less like Traveller?  Or do I try to rationalise the existing ones to
> maintain compatibility with what other people have done?
> 
> >  A friend of mine created an inertial guided missile that removes
> > the explosive warhead from the missile and turned it into a kinetic
> > kill device.
> 
> Yes; either remove the chemical warhead or replace it with a fusion
> warhead.  A chemical explosive makes little sense.  Even the standard
> missiles accelerate to 72 km/s in the first round -- putting a
> chemical explosive in them is a bit like putting a spring-loaded
> boxing glove on an anti-tank penetrator.

I always considered the HE as essentially a frag grenade for ships. A
small cloud of debris having a better chance to hit. 

> 
> > The missile frigate then starts a high speed run against the
> > intended target and launches its missiles outside of sensor range of
> > an enemy ship.
> 
> That works under the standard rules, too.  I've had vague thoughts in
> the same direction, but didn't actually get round to testing them.
> 
> > Do the math and see how much damage a single missile moving at 90
> > hexes per turn does ;)

Thanks for a nasty tactic. The Forinians IMMTU are going to be using
that. I was going to have to bring in more help. I think it will be
quite a suprise to my players.



-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline. It
helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear
weapons, but the very least you need a beer.
         - Frank Zappa


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 16:14:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Aug  6 15:14:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The big fleet debate
Message-ID: <20020806220841.64120.qmail@web20417.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>

>>B. In space:  Nuclear weapons are allowed, but only limited
commerce
>>raiding is allowed.
>
>Isn't the _possession_ of nuke illegal (the Traveller Adventure has 
>nuke anti-ship missils as being illegal).  That is what I would do, 
>since I'm not sure you want anyone to be in a postion to nuke a 
>planet....

That is certainly a workable approach.  The Imperium has to balance
removing the most effective anti-ship weapons from their law-abiding
merchants against the risk of misuse of those weapons (under many
very easy to effectuate scenarios) against worlds.  

--Glenn


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 16:21:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Aug  6 15:21:11 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <20020806221929.46060.qmail@web20418.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Jeff D. Greenly" <jgreenly@hsc.wvu.edu>
>
>I think that because the Imperial Navy has such a long history, it
>probably has a lot of cool traditions. Anything that you threw in
for
>color, like Marines in some traditional dress uniforms standing 
>behind the "quarterdeck", the transfer of a baton, staff or whistle,
>maybe a reading of the ship's history...

Definitely make up some cool stuff and tell us about it!  Don't
forget to include weird stuff that comes out of the Vilani
traditions, too.

--Glenn



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 16:25:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Tue Aug  6 15:25:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
References: <20020806021137.13bb35092d5d49ae9344179b452c1788.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <3D504BD3.B4316290@mindspring.com>

Cheng Tseng wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> This probably displays the depths of my ignorance, but can anybody give me a
> description of how a unit's change of command ceremony goes?  I am looking
> specifically for the US Navy's protocol, but any nation or service is welcomed.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> C.T.

From my experience of five change of command ceremonies. Two at
pierside*
Enlisted are taken out of their workspaces and put into the most
uncomfortable uniform and put at ease in the sun, usually on asphalt or
concrete. *Or a steel deck if available. 
After an interminable wait some O's come out and congratulate each other
on what fine people they are and what a good job they've done and are
going to do. 
Then the enlisted are sent back to work and the O's have a party.

-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
If you can't convince them, confuse them.
                -Harry S. Truman

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 16:33:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fred Ramen)
Date: Tue Aug  6 15:33:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
Message-ID: <003401c23d98$a70d8680$da29f7a5@pctframen>

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>

>>"Nothing succeeds like success" they say.  I've always sensed that along
with being politically brilliant, she was possibly the greatest strategic
and tactical mind the Imperium ever saw.  She was only 28 when the war
broke out, according to canon.  I'd prefer to push her date of birth back
to 567, making her 48 at the beginning of the war.  This at least gives her
the age to have had a fairly long career and been at least an experienced
Captain or junior Admiral.  This would, IMHO, make her seizure of the
fleets far more acceptable.  No one is going to listen to a pup of a Ltd.
Commander.<<

I'm probably in a tiny minority here, but I remain unconvinced about
Arbellatra's strategic brilliance. Certainly her conduct of the 2FW does not
seem to have a personal stamp upon it the way Norris' saving strategy in the
5FW does. Canonical info on the war is spotty, of course, but it is
described as a "holding action" accompanied by commerce raids. When the
dreadnoughts are finally constructed, Arbellatra does not lead them on a
reconquest of the Marches, but merely forces a stalemate...and then promptly
concedes territory to the Zhodani, as well as separating several other
worlds from the Imperium. Compare Norris, who does in fact lead a reconquest
that restores the status quo antebellum, as well as changing the strategic
makeup of the states in the Marches in the Imperium's favor.

>>I think the title of Grand Admiral was given to her for no better reason
than she knew how to fight.  Look at all the generals that Lincoln broke
before finding Grant. She demonstrated the ability to win.  Before that,
the post maybe had been more political, but consider the event of the 1FW,
I somehow doubt it.  The Marches had just been cursed with a string of bad
leaders.<<

Yes, but in the canonical timeline she is simply too young, and Cleon V is
around for too short a time for this to work. (He rules for three years, the
first of which is the first year of the 2FW; this would imply that
Arbellatra could not have been appointed by him prior to 616 or so, unless
she was already known to him for some reason.)

I myself like the idea that the Alikhalikoi family were prominent supporters
of Cleon's faction, or perhaps loyalists who resisted Olav. They may have
been pretenders to a duchy in the Marches, or had had their title revoked.
What may have happened is that an older member of the Alikhalikoi family was
actually appointed by Cleon, but due to death or other happenstance was
unable to actually serve. Arbellatra was then chosen because she was the
least controversial candidate--her family had the commission, she was the
heir, and her youth would allow her to be manipulated by the other nobles.
Her brilliance was that she ended up dominating them. (To bring in Doug's
Hitler analogy, compare the way the right wing thought they would dominate
Hitler in 1933. Or how Lincoln routinely outmanuevered his cabinet members
political ambition.)

>>Wit my revised birth year, she is now 48 when the 2FW breaks out, 53 when
it ends.  She had to leave before the end of the war, since she defeats
Gustus in 622.  Have her, and a small fleet leave in late 618, leaving the
war to a trusted group of under commanders.  The history is murky here.
Perhaps the Zhodani were broken by mid-618, and the last ~18 months were
mopping up and retaking worlds?

She arrives in the Core no later than early 621, when a large armada. Along
the way, she defeats several pretenders, and forces a battle with Gustus at
the Second Battle of Zhimaway.  Proceeding to Capital, she declares herself
regent in late 622, at the age of 55.  Becomes Empress in 629 at 62, Dies
in 666 at 99.  Marries late, first son born in 624.<<

I have no problem with this as an alternate timeline. I guess my point is
merely that this kind of surgery is necessary to produce Arbellatra the
Conqueror. Canon allows for a different picture to be read between the
lines, IMHO. To bring back Augustus, Arbellatra may have succeeded in
keeping the throne because, like Octavian, she was just enough of a general
to have won the war but obviously not some one who could only rule by virtue
of the sword. That is, as an UNprofessional Admiral, she would have the
support of a populace thoroughly sick of what the professional soldiers had
been doing for twenty years.

All IMHO, YMMV, IANAGD, etc.

Fred Ramen


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 16:33:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug  6 15:33:28 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1028651185.1051.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020806201901.C28821@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1028651185.1051.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020807082917.A30389@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Nope, the Vehicles rule is that the Acc bonus is not limited by
> Gunnery skill.

Where does it say that?  I must have missed it :/


> Huh?  At 600 miles, they're 2 seconds out; assuming 12G missiles,
> they can travel up to 240 meters in that time, which means all the
> missiles need to be within an area that small.

You're assuming the missiles only use their thrusters transversely in
the last 2 seconds, which is what I (as attacker) would want you to
think ;)


Consider the trajectories of a salvo of missiles that initially
accelerate at just under 12G for two turns, aimed up to 11 degrees
away from the victim (it works out to 11.8G minimum axial component).
They all choose a different off-axis direction within that cone, and
maintain the same axial component of acceleration.

Then they all use up to 7G of transverse acceleration for two more
turns to curve back in toward the victim while still maintaining more
than 9G axial component (actually up to 9.7G).

All their trajectories pass through the victim with a forward
component of 42 hexes per turn, but their sideways component varies by
up to 14 hexes per turn in random directions.

Oops, that means I miscalculated earlier.  At 600 miles range the
region of incoming missiles has a *radius* of 200 miles, for a
diameter of 400 miles.  Better multiply the canister mass by 4.

As an aside, if we're using Vehicles to calculate impactor damage,
then the incoming missiles do more than four times as damage when they
hit (average 6dx19700(5) each) than they do in GURPS Traveller
(6dx4300(5) each).


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 16:43:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue Aug  6 15:43:04 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
In-Reply-To: <006301c23ce3$2bcea180$eeb18b90@computer>
References: <006301c23ce3$2bcea180$eeb18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <3d50427f.7657767@post.demon.co.uk>

"Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com> writes:

>The counter mix from Invasion Earth might be worth studying.

There aren't any TL15 units on either side. =20

The Imperial Marines are 78% TL14 (1 division, 3 regiments) plus 2 IM
regiments at TL12 and TL13.

The Imperial regular army is 70% TL14, 20% TL13, 10% TL12.

Imperial colonial forces (which account for about 30% of the total
Imperial strength) are TL11 - TL14, with TL12 being the norm.

Solomani regular troops are 43% TL14, 42% TL 13, 11% TL12 and 4% TL11.
The local Terran guerrillas are all TL 13.

Stephen
(Incidentally, I remember there being a single 1-point TL 16 unit in
=46FW, which I always assumed to be the player characters!)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 16:43:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Aug  6 15:43:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
References: <003401c23d98$a70d8680$da29f7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <3D5050EB.9050601@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Fred Ramen wrote:

> I'm probably in a tiny minority here, but I remain unconvinced about
> Arbellatra's strategic brilliance. Certainly her conduct of the 2FW does not
> seem to have a personal stamp upon it the way Norris' saving strategy in the
> 5FW does. Canonical info on the war is spotty, of course, but it is
> described as a "holding action" accompanied by commerce raids. When the
> dreadnoughts are finally constructed, Arbellatra does not lead them on a
> reconquest of the Marches, but merely forces a stalemate...and then promptly
> concedes territory to the Zhodani, as well as separating several other
> worlds from the Imperium. 

Probably this is because she knows she needs to a) bring an end ASAP to 
the 2FW, and b) She needs those Dreadnaughts to end the rebellion, 
rather than throwing them into a likely bloody fight to beat the Zhodani 
back.

The Zho's, being in an expansionist mood at the moment, are only too 
happy to help her achieve her goals.

Her goal was not to *win* the 2FW, but to *end* it with enough power and 
fleets strength to go fight the REAL battle, that of re-unifying the 
Imperium.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 16:43:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue Aug  6 15:43:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Aircraft carrier displacement
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D0D@USCHM203>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D0D@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <3d514ac0.9770968@post.demon.co.uk>

"Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> writes:

>	5 tons gross ship displacement(in today's nautical terms)=3D1
>displacement ton in Traveller.

On that basis, then:

Battleship HMS Victory (TL3) 2164 tons =3D just over 400 dtons (the size
of a patrol cruiser)
=46rigate USS Constitution (TL3) 1576 tons =3D 300 dtons
=46rigate HMS Warrior (TL4) 9137 tons =3D 1800 dtons
Monitor USS Monitor (TL4) 987 tons =3D 200 dtons (a free trader)
Typical Spanish or Portuguese ship from the age of exploration,
15th/16th century (TL2) 80 tons =3D 16 dtons.  (Magellan or Columbus
would have thought a Caen-class marine dropship's bunkroom
accommodation to be sheer luxury...)

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 17:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Aug  6 16:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <m3y9bqqsbp.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20806.152713.5c8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:
>> 
>> We extend POW's and noncombatants a certain amount of "courtesy" and
>> expect the same from our enemies.  Our culture (at least for now)
>> calls for this courtesy to be extended even if it is not returned.
>
> IMHO civilian opinion that's foolish.  The deal should be play by our
> rules or we play by none.  That is, we'll refrain from using NBC
> weapons, we'll take prisoners, we'll treat them right, we'll avoid
> hitting civilians for exactly so long as the other side does.  If they
> don't, then we don't; instead we run up the black flag and fight
> dirty.  It's not as though they'd retaliate by fighting dirty; they
> already do.

Thing is, we've already set the precedent that failing to abide by the
rules during a war will get those responsible tried as *criminals*
after the war. 

And yes, we were rather hypocritical in that we should have tried the
people on our own side who were responsible for things like Dresden.

We *do* have the stated policy of responding to use of weapons of mass
destruction with weapons of mass destruction. And we carefully avoid
stating that we will retaliate "in kind". Odds are that we'd respond to
bioagents with nukes, simply because have nukes, and frankly they are a
hell of a lot *safer* for all concerned. 

Chemical attacks I'm not sure. 

But shooting prisoners or mistreating them is against our *laws*. Which
is one reason why a number of folks are more that a bit upswet about
the fact that at the current time we are *violating* our own laws when
it comes to the people taken prisoner in Afghanistan and held at
Guantanamo Bay. They haven't been accorded prisoner of war status, nor
have they been classified as criminals awaiting trial.

We are damaging our own legal system *badly* by doing this. And that
and other similar things we are doing are actually more apt to destroy
the US than the actions of the terrorists!

If we can't follow our own laws except when it is convenient, we are
all at the mercy of anybody in a position of authorty.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 17:33:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 16:33:12 2002
Subject: [TML] army usage
Message-ID: <a6.2a3d2ddd.2a81b626@aol.com>

 >>I would agree.  But as you will observe in Afghanistan (and arguably 
Serbia) 
 >>they did it by putting someone else's young men into the mud -- and not 
all 
 >>that many of those.  I seem to remember something along those lines in 
 >>Gibbons ....
 >
 >That army was just laying there...

I was thinking of Rome's extensive use of auxiliaries and allies towards the 
end.
 
 >Seriously, from our point of view, Afghanistan was as close to a perfect
 >situation as you can get.  All we had to do was provide air & logisitcal
 >support, and the population in the are being attacked wasn't too thrilled
 >with the current government.  They all aren't going to be that way.

(Actually, it wasn't the population that opposed the Taliban.  it was the 
Northern Alliance.  The only reason the NA isn't pillaging the citizens like 
they were doing before the Taliban kicked them out is because they're 
preoccupied spending all that money that we bribed them with.  Sort of a 
Marshall Plan for bandit chiefs.  Seems to have worked so far.)

Well, one wouldn't think so, but as I understand it the plans for attacking 
Iraq involve a repeat of Afghanisan, using "rebels" in the north and south to 
do the actual fighting while we provide airstrikes.  Again:  "Army?  What 
Army?"  To my knowledge the army made not one twitch towards deployment 
during the Afghan battle -- either the authorities were supremely confident 
that they didn't need the army, or they had misgivings about deploying it in 
its present condition.  One wouldn't think Iraq would roll up so handily, but 
no-one thought the Taliban would roll up so fast either.  Apparently we're 
going to find out.

On the other hand, if the latest briefs are any indication and we launch any 
military action against the house of Saud, then I think we're going to have 
to occupy everything from Libya to Jakarta.  That _will_ require an army, and 
I'm not sure we have one.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 17:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (markc@peak.org)
Date: Tue Aug  6 16:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <244640-2200282623322384@M2W096.mail2web.com>

Jesse DeGraff <Jesse=2EDeGraff@netapp=2Ecom> writes:

> Gee, ALL the clowns are coming out of the woodwork ;
> BTW, is the December shoot going to happen?

Umm=2E=2E=2E December=2E  Why do you ask? :^)


(Seriously, it's on Saturday, Dec=2E 7th=2E)

    - Mark C=2E


--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 17:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Tue Aug  6 16:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <003401c23d98$a70d8680$da29f7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOECFILAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Fred Ramen
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 3:29 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Arbellatra


From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>

>>"Nothing succeeds like success" they say.  I've always sensed that along
with being politically brilliant, she was possibly the greatest strategic
and tactical mind the Imperium ever saw.  She was only 28 when the war
broke out, according to canon.  I'd prefer to push her date of birth back
to 567, making her 48 at the beginning of the war.  This at least gives her
the age to have had a fairly long career and been at least an experienced
Captain or junior Admiral.  This would, IMHO, make her seizure of the
fleets far more acceptable.  No one is going to listen to a pup of a Ltd.
Commander.<<

I'm probably in a tiny minority here, but I remain unconvinced about
Arbellatra's strategic brilliance. Certainly her conduct of the 2FW does not
seem to have a personal stamp upon it the way Norris' saving strategy in the
5FW does. Canonical info on the war is spotty, of course, but it is
described as a "holding action" accompanied by commerce raids. When the
dreadnoughts are finally constructed, Arbellatra does not lead them on a
reconquest of the Marches, but merely forces a stalemate...and then promptly
concedes territory to the Zhodani, as well as separating several other
worlds from the Imperium. Compare Norris, who does in fact lead a reconquest
that restores the status quo antebellum, as well as changing the strategic
makeup of the states in the Marches in the Imperium's favor.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Ahe doesn't need to be a genius she has thirdly things going for her when
she
marches on the Captal.  First, Her force have been defending the Imperium
against
outsiders and she is out to save the rest of the imperium.  Secondlym, she
has
the core of Plankwell's flee, ;png in the tooth perhaps but still a bunch
with a
tradition of winning.  The ones she beats have been mixing it up in the Core
cector for a long time, repair and maintainance facilities have been gought
over
conquered and reconquered, not entirely bloodlessly for decdes now.  Her
fleet
battleworn though it may be, it is still in better shape then its
competition.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>I think the title of Grand Admiral was given to her for no better reason
than she knew how to fight.  Look at all the generals that Lincoln broke
before finding Grant. She demonstrated the ability to win.  Before that,
the post maybe had been more political, but consider the event of the 1FW,
I somehow doubt it.  The Marches had just been cursed with a string of bad
leaders.<<

Yes, but in the canonical timeline she is simply too young, and Cleon V is
around for too short a time for this to work. (He rules for three years, the
first of which is the first year of the 2FW; this would imply that
Arbellatra could not have been appointed by him prior to 616 or so, unless
she was already known to him for some reason.)

I myself like the idea that the Alikhalikoi family were prominent supporters
of Cleon's faction, or perhaps loyalists who resisted Olav. They may have
been pretenders to a duchy in the Marches, or had had their title revoked.
What may have happened is that an older member of the Alikhalikoi family was
actually appointed by Cleon, but due to death or other happenstance was
unable to actually serve. Arbellatra was then chosen because she was the
least controversial candidate--her family had the commission, she was the
heir, and her youth would allow her to be manipulated by the other nobles.
Her brilliance was that she ended up dominating them. (To bring in Doug's
Hitler analogy, compare the way the right wing thought they would dominate
Hitler in 1933. Or how Lincoln routinely outmanuevered his cabinet members
political ambition.)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Or a combination, she lucked out early, and won some critical battles.
Like Hitler, she is a good tactician, not a strategist.  She was however a
good pokitical leader and even if Arabella the war leader varely won
Arabella the protector was superb in saving the Imperium.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>Wit my revised birth year, she is now 48 when the 2FW breaks out, 53 when
it ends.  She had to leave before the end of the war, since she defeats
Gustus in 622.  Have her, and a small fleet leave in late 618, leaving the
war to a trusted group of under commanders.  The history is murky here.
Perhaps the Zhodani were broken by mid-618, and the last ~18 months were
mopping up and retaking worlds?

She arrives in the Core no later than early 621, when a large armada. Along
the way, she defeats several pretenders, and forces a battle with Gustus at
the Second Battle of Zhimaway.  Proceeding to Capital, she declares herself
regent in late 622, at the age of 55.  Becomes Empress in 629 at 62, Dies
in 666 at 99.  Marries late, first son born in 624.<<

I have no problem with this as an alternate timeline. I guess my point is
merely that this kind of surgery is necessary to produce Arbellatra the
Conqueror. Canon allows for a different picture to be read between the
lines, IMHO. To bring back Augustus, Arbellatra may have succeeded in
keeping the throne because, like Octavian, she was just enough of a general
to have won the war but obviously not some one who could only rule by virtue
of the sword. That is, as an UNprofessional Admiral, she would have the
support of a populace thoroughly sick of what the professional soldiers had
been doing for twenty years.

All IMHO, YMMV, IANAGD, etc.

Fred Ramen

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Likewise

jml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 17:46:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Tue Aug  6 16:46:04 2002
Subject: [TML] army usage
In-Reply-To: <a6.2a3d2ddd.2a81b626@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0208070140370.363897-100000@svati>

On Tue, 6 Aug 2002 Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> >Seriously, from our point of view, Afghanistan was as close to a perfect
> >situation as you can get.  All we had to do was provide air & logisitcal
> >support, and the population in the are being attacked wasn't too thrilled
> >with the current government.  They all aren't going to be that way.
>
>(Actually, it wasn't the population that opposed the Taliban.  it was the
>Northern Alliance.  The only reason the NA isn't pillaging the citizens like
>they were doing before the Taliban kicked them out is because they're
>preoccupied spending all that money that we bribed them with.  Sort of a
>Marshall Plan for bandit chiefs.  Seems to have worked so far.)

I really think you should do some research on the situation in Afganisthan
and how everything went down before blurting things out. The main population
of Afganisthan was opposed to the Taliban, which is mainly from a tribe to
the south west (I think). The Taliban was however heavily enforcing their rule
and the Northern Alliance was the only once with enough manpower and equipment
to fight back.

Also don't think there was any bribing necessary. The Northern Alliance was
losing and losing bad, until the Americans interfeered and provided supported
the NA with heavy bombing.

Tommy Grav
-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 17:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Aug  6 16:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <200208062357.MFJ01994@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Jeff D. Greenly" says
<snip naval change of command>

Don't forget - the outgoing commander has to do an inventory 
with the new commander, and the new commander gets to sign 
for the ship and all of the equipment in it.
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 18:01:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Aug  6 17:01:05 2002
Subject: [TML] OT:  December ARPC shoot
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15F3@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Good to hear!  I'm desperately going to try to make it up again finally, as the financial situation has improved a little.  Providing of course that I can get a new roomate and don't have to keep paying twice the rent like I am now :(  Also, I'm going to invite Erin again, and maybe I can get my "girlfriend" to go too ;)

Jesse


-----Original Message-----
From: markc@peak.org [mailto:markc@peak.org]
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 4:32 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .


Jesse DeGraff <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> writes:

> Gee, ALL the clowns are coming out of the woodwork ;
> BTW, is the December shoot going to happen?

Umm... December.  Why do you ask? :^)


(Seriously, it's on Saturday, Dec. 7th.)

    - Mark C.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 18:01:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Aug  6 17:01:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
Message-ID: <200208070000.MFJ02183@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

alan spik says
<snip the enlisted view of the change of command>

the sergeant major kept me and a couple of other guys in the 
rear of the formation.  we were supposed to watch out for 
people about to fall out, and as discreetly as possible, move 
forward and get them out of formation.

hot sun, standing in one place for a long time, etc...
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 18:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 17:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The cloak
Message-ID: <OFE82EC4F7.A922AAEF-ONCA256C0E.0000643B@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

And Brian gave us a wonderfully-UNwanted mental image:
>I once ran through the Maxcy dorm parking lot at USC wearing only 
sneakers
>and a Spuds McKenzie beach towel around my neck (yelling "SCIENCE!" at 
the
>top of my lungs for reasons that now escape me)...does that count as 
wearing
>a cloak? 

Only if it was a Cloak of Invisibility.

The _cloak_ being invisible, I mean.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 18:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Tue Aug  6 17:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
References: <20020806203610.24254.48308.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D506687.7BD7A795@earthlink.net>

Mark C. posted:
> 
> Jesse DeGraff <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> writes:
> 
> > What about artists?  ;)
> 
> Sure, why not?  Do you know any? >^)
> 
>     - Mark C.

Oh, gawd, puh-LEEZE let him on it. Maybe SJG will one
day market his graphics on T-shirts (HINT, HINT!).

Do you know how difficult it is for me to NOT
print T-shirts of his stuff for personal use?

David Smart

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 18:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Aug  6 17:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: army usage
Message-ID: <20020807002817.99096.qmail@web20417.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>

>I really think you should do some research on the situation in 
>Afganisthan and how everything went down before blurting things out.
>The main population of Afganisthan was opposed to the Taliban, which
>is mainly from a tribe to the south west (I think). 

Tommy, you should do some research, too.  The Taliban was composed
primarily of Pakistani and Saudi volunteers who called themselves
"students" (of Islam).  Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, with the knowledge
if not the support of the United States government, formed and
trained the Taliban and sent them to end the civil war in
Afghanistan, which they did.  The peace they imposed was in many ways
worse than the war.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 18:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 17:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
Message-ID: <OF0802E7D8.0474AB00-ONCA256C0D.008279D4@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Martin posted a correction:
>>>The Impeirum is TL 14 mostly, with Tl 15 just creeping in over the last
>>>few years.
>>
>> OK, this one's got me puzzled, I'll give a serious reply now.
>
>Ooops. Sorry "best tech in the Imperium is mostly TL 14, with 15
>creeping in". Average is lower..

Thank goodness! (I was sort-of worried this would mean a future major 
correction to the T20 rule-book. ;-)  ;-)

It also makes my other, later posts on the topic moot.

("Moot" as in "in complete agreement with". So now I can remain mute. ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------





tml-request@travellercentral.com
Sent by: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
07/08/2002 02:18
Please respond to tml

 
        To:     tml@travellercentral.com
        cc: 
        Subject:        TML digest, Vol 2002 #890 - 23 msgs
Is this part of a business decision process?: 


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Today's Topics:

   1. Woo Hoo Yepieee the IW are coming to town (Andrew & Dii 
Moffatt-Vallance)
   2. Silly Question (Cheng Tseng)
   3. Re: Gas Giant Mass (David Shayne)
   4. Re: Re: Mines (Timothy Little)
   5. RE: Silly Question (Mosaic Tapestry)
   6. Re: The big fleet debate (Timothy Little)
   7. GURPS MISSILE WARFARE (was The big fleet debate) (hal@buffnet.net)
   8. Re: T20 background question (MJ Dougherty)
   9. Re: Jump governor (MJ Dougherty)
  10. Re: Imperial Taxes (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
  11. Re: The big fleet debate (Timothy Little)
  12. Re: Re: Quote (correction) (Leonard Erickson)
  13. Re: mines (Timothy Little)
  14. Re: The big fleet debate (Timothy Little)
  15. Re: The big fleet debate (Timothy Little)
  16. Ad campaign...... (Michael Cessna)
  17. Re: Re: Mines (Rupert Boleyn)
  18. Re: RE: Dehumanization (John T. Kwon)
  19. GURPS Interstellar Wars (knightsky@juno.com)
  20. RE: GURPS Interstellar Wars (Mike West)
  21. Re: The cloak (Hurrel, Brian)
  22. Re: Gas Giant Mass (Anthony Jackson)
  23. Re: RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries" (Anthony Jackson)

--__--__--

Message: 1
From: "Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 18:05:31 +1200
Subject: [TML] Woo Hoo Yepieee the IW are coming to town
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Copied from JTAS

From:       Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Date:       23:01:47, Aug 05, 2002
Message-ID: 15305
Group:      General Discussion

Interstellar Wars: A New Direction For Traveller Steve Jackson Games is 
pleased to announce that its license to produce a GURPS version of the 
classic science-fiction roleplaying game Traveller has been extended for 
another three years. By agreement with Far Future Enterprises, the 
GURPS Traveller line, as well as the online Journal of the Travellers' Aid 

Society, will continue at least through the end of 2005.

The new license also gives SJ Games the right to open up a new period in 
the distant past of the classic Third Imperium setting. Long before the 
foundation of the Imperium, the Humans of Terra reached the stars for the 
first time, only to find that they were already owned by someone else. 
Centuries of conflict followed, in which the outnumbered Terrans fought 
for 
their very survival against a vast but decadent alien empire. Now GURPS 
Traveller will examine this crucial time. The first release in the new 
line, 
GURPS Traveller: The Interstellar Wars, is tentatively scheduled for a 
Summer 2003 release.

"The Interstellar Wars have always been of great interest to Traveller 
fans," 
said GURPS Traveller Line Editor Jon F. Zeigler. "It's very exciting to 
have 
the opportunity to develop this period into a setting for epic adventure." 

Marc Miller, creator of Traveller, agreed. "I'm excited about opening a 
new 
milieu. There's room for a lot of new things here." Senior Line Editor 
Loren 
Wiseman, long-time Traveller author and editor, remains at the helm of the 

GURPS Traveller product line. He is assisted by Zeigler, and by Graeme 
Davis, editor of the Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society (JTAS).


--__--__--

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 02:13:40 -0400
To: tml@travellercentral.com
From: cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng)
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Hi,

This probably displays the depths of my ignorance, but can anybody give me 
a
description of how a unit's change of command ceremony goes?  I am looking
specifically for the US Navy's protocol, but any nation or service is 
welcomed.

Thanks,

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - 
they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

 My Sale List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
 My Want List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


--__--__--

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 02:27:29 -0500
From: David Shayne <daveshayne@ameritech.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

> Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 09:42:43 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> David Shayne <daveshayne@ameritech.net> writes:
> >
> >> Any clues?
> >
> >I couldn't find that info in any TNE source. There are charts for that
> >in "World Builder's Handbook" for MT. Assuming for the moment that you
> >don't have access to that very worthwhile publication I can give you
> >some typical figures from that source.
> >
> >Smallest SGG radius = 20
> >Average SGG radius ~= 60
> >Highest SGG radius = 100
> >
> >Smallest LGG radius = 110
> >Average LGG radius ~= 175
> >Highest LGG radius = 240
> 
> Applying a realism check here, Jupiter, at size 88, is about the limit
> for any sort of gas giant (assuming TNE size is in thousands of miles,
> like CT size).

Yes it is. And yes from a perfect realism standpoint this is wrong.
However probably not hugely broken since the main thing we need to
determine here is the mass and this gives a reasonable number for mass
while still being usable with the same formula as for small rocky worlds
. (like earth) Besides I tend to the view that wherever reality and the
rules are in conflict it's almost always reality that has it wrong.
(With a special thanks to the late Doug Adams.)

> >
> >Lowest GG density = .1
> >Average GG density ~= .21
> >Highest GG density = .3
> 
> Assuming that's g/cc, that's horribly wrong. 

Standard densities. With Earth = 1. Doesn't look so horibly wrong now
does it? 

David Shayne

--__--__--

Message: 4
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 17:43:14 +1000
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Mines
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> No, I forgot to mention that this model can run the sensor and brain 
> for 7 days.

Phew, that's quite a bit better.  You're right about the huge drain
for PEMS though.  Aren't they meant to be *passive* sensors?


> Perhaps a CAPTOR style sensor platform with a number of small missiles 
> on board would be a workable comprimise, though it'd start getting 
> expensive real quick, and it wouldn't be long before most design 
> committees turned it into a small battle-station by adding point 
> defence, etc. I'm sure.

I strongly suspect so, yes.  Trouble is, they'd probably be right :(
Maybe small mines aren't viable in FF&S?


- Tim

--__--__--

Message: 5
From: "Mosaic Tapestry" <n2sami@attbi.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] Silly Question
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 01:06:56 -0700
Organization: often equals Disorgainization
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

I'm not sure which details are important to you but the essential bit of
a US Army change of command is the transfer of the colors. The outgoing
commander hands the colors to his commanding officer who immediately
hands them to the incoming commander.

A web page of events surrounding such with photo of the act:
http://www.militarymarksmanship.org/hoidahlcoc.htm

A web page of events surrounding such with parade and all:
http://www.afsouth.nato.int/images/change.htm



--__--__--

Message: 6
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 18:22:06 +1000
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] The big fleet debate
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Hal wrote:
> List all of the modifiers to gunner's skill you are using in a 
> missile/antimissile engagement.

Pretty similar to yours.  In more detail:

> Skill 12 laser gunner

A reasonable median.  I've been assuming about 9 for civilians who
have weapons but test-fire them more than they use them, up to about
15 for well-trained and experienced military personnel.

> Gunnery +6 to hit program

I generally use a Complexity 8 targeting program for +9 to hit (not
cumulative with Gunnery program).  Civilian ships will have less,
possibly +4.

> ROF bonus +10

I get only +7 RoF bonus per laser, or +8 (maybe +9) for a standard
"triple laser" turret.  Are you grouping them into larger batteries?

> Total modifiers:
> 12+ 32 + 6 + 10 + 10 + 2 - 39 = 72-39 = 32

Pretty close; I get between 24-37 depending upon circumstances; 32 is
fine.


> Rolling an average of 10 on 3d6 means that you will have succeeded by 
> 22.  Number of missiles successfully engaged in that round will be equal 
to 
> round((22-3)/2,0) or 19/2 rounded up or 10.

It's rather odd to see a turret that fires only 1 shot per 20 seconds
take out 10 missiles in the 15-30 seconds it takes the missiles to
cross the last half-hex, but them's the rules :(

Yes, that's close to the figures I get.


>  Please note that second edition rules for TRAVELLER have bumped up
> the ROF bonus from their current levels to current levels +3.

That's OK, I've got the second edition rules.  Just bought them a
couple of months ago.


> If more than 10 are inbound, he stops 10 and the rest hit.

That's the problem.  Dton-for-dton, there will always be more than 10
incoming missiles per defending turret using any sane launcher and
guidance design.  A million points of impact damage per turret
*really* hurts.


- Tim

--__--__--

Message: 7
From: hal@buffnet.net
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 04:40:04 -0400 (EDT)
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: [TML] GURPS MISSILE WARFARE (was The big fleet debate)
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

>> Gunnery +6 to hit program
>
> I generally use a Complexity 8 targeting program for +9 to hit (not
> cumulative with Gunnery program).  Civilian ships will have less,
> possibly +4.

The CDI (C Defense Industries) had a showcase of a lot of different types
of low power lasers.  The trade off was that they increased the rate of
fire to get an increase in ROF bonus.  One interesting development was to
build a specialized targeting computer.  Using GURPS rules, it was a
specilized computer getting a +1 complexity bonus for use with a targeting
computer.


>> ROF bonus +10
>
> I get only +7 RoF bonus per laser, or +8 (maybe +9) for a standard
> "triple laser" turret.  Are you grouping them into larger batteries?

The point defense lasers I built could easily attain that ROF bonus. 
Since lasers in a single turret cannot target different targets, most
Point defense scenarios I had were such that you had a triple turret
firing three lasers at its target.  I will see if I can dig up my archived
copy of the point defense lasers.  But +10 is not hard to achieve :)


>> Total modifiers:
>> 12+ 32 + 6 + 10 + 10 + 2 - 39 = 72-39 = 32
>
> Pretty close; I get between 24-37 depending upon circumstances; 32 is
> fine.
>
>
>> Rolling an average of 10 on 3d6 means that you will have succeeded by
>> 22.  Number of missiles successfully engaged in that round will be
>> equal to  round((22-3)/2,0) or 19/2 rounded up or 10.
>
> It's rather odd to see a turret that fires only 1 shot per 20 seconds
> take out 10 missiles in the 15-30 seconds it takes the missiles to
> cross the last half-hex, but them's the rules :(

Minor thoughts: part of that +10 bonus for Point defense comes of the fact
that the missiles attempting to hit you have to come in from a specific
"region".  This region is a relatively small cone that gets smaller the
closer those missiles come to you.  But you are correct.  There should be
a MAX number of targets that can be engaged by a single laser group per
turn equal to the max number of shots a single laser in the grouping and
put out in a turn.


>> If more than 10 are inbound, he stops 10 and the rest hit.
>
> That's the problem.  Dton-for-dton, there will always be more than 10
> incoming missiles per defending turret using any sane launcher and
> guidance design.  A million points of impact damage per turret
> *really* hurts.

Using the concept that the current weapon systems are designed to operate
against the current enemy weapon technology - try using the GURPS
TRAVELLER missile designs first.  Then do an analysis of weapons in the
TRAVELLER universe.  If you can see where there is an improved methodology
for weapons, post it and we can argue the merits and/or improve any
oversights.  I am still flabberghasted that no one ever noticed that the
FAST drug makes a FAR better alternative for cheap travel than does a
freeze tube!

  But that is another story ;)



--__--__--

Message: 8
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] T20 background question
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 10:29:39 +0100
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

>
> Martin replied:
> >>What is the TL of  the Imperium & the Terran Confederation in the
> >>Year 1000 setting of T20?
> >
> >The Impeirum is TL 14 mostly, with Tl 15 just creeping in over the last
> few
> >years.
>
> OK, this one's got me puzzled, I'll give a serious reply now.


Ooops. Sorry "best tech in the Imperium is mostly TL 14, with 15 creeping
in". Average is lower..


--__--__--

Message: 9
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Jump governor
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 10:30:44 +0100
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com


> I don't see these in High Guard - IMTU, they don't exist.  If
> a Jump-4 ship jumps 2 parsecs, they only use 2 parsecs worth
> of fuel.
>
> What was the last canon word on this subject, if any?

Marc's last statement (and confirmed to me in a question I asked a while
ago) was that if you have J-3 fuel and you J-1, you only use J1 of fuel 
up.


--__--__--

Message: 10
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 12:06:33 +0200 (MEST)
From: Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Taxes
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Anthony Jackson writes:
>In Striker, the implication is that the imperial military tax is simply 
1/3
>of the planet's total military expenditure (with another 1/3 going to the
>subsector fleet, so the world only keeps 1/3 for personal forces).

Incorrect. It's 30% of total military expenditure that goes to the
Imperium with 70% retained for local use. The 30% is divided between
regular and subsector forces. I used to be convinced that somewhere I had
seen a canonical statement to the effect that these Imperial military
taxes were split 50/50 between regular and subsector forces (so 15% to
each), but I've been trying to track down the reference for a while with
no luck, so I'm beginning to doubt. Maybe I made it up myself (anyone who
can come up with the reference will earn my undying gratitude ;-).



Hans


--__--__--

Message: 11
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 20:19:01 +1000
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] The big fleet debate
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Ok, that's reasonable.  Now, let's look at a point defense system:

> 9 x rE cell, good for 50 shots: 0.09T, $90k

I get $180k, but that doesn't matter much.

> Dedicated Macroframe: 0.25T, $50k, complexity 11

I get $100k and Complexity 10 at TL12.  It's not hardened, but that's
not likely to be a problem except in really unusual situations.


> Targeting +12: $512k (but probably gets a bulk discoute)

I get $256k, and I agree about the bulk discount ;) However, I can
only seem to fit a $128k +11 program in the macroframe.


> with the Vehicles system beam weapons in space have no Acc cap,

However, in the Vehicles rules maximum accuracy bonus is limited to
Gunnery skill, in this case 25.  There's no point in aiming more than
one second.  That gives you a base of 50 (51 since you can miss by one
and still hit).


> The missile is being fired at one second before impact

You'd better make that at least two seconds else the now unguided
missile will still hit your ship.  You need to do a *lot* more damage
to annihilate it.  (In fact, if there are a lot of missiles, you might
find it very hard to dodge all the "dead" ones...)

That doesn't change the basic to-hit number by much, it's 15- instead
of 16-.  Continuing the progression out to the 1/2D limit, I also get
an average of about 8 missiles killed.

It's a good thing I didn't put thermal superconductors in their
armour ;)


> Hm...that's actually worse than I realized.  Oh well, if they send a
> really big swarm of missiles at you simply dump a canister round in
> front of them.

How *big* a canister round?

You need to disable the missiles about 600 miles out, and they will
probably be approaching from a region 200 miles across at that
distance.  Your canister must disperse about ten trillion objects of
sufficient size to reliably disable a missile, just to cut the numbers
in half.

A 20 MJ x-ray pulse is barely enough to penetrate the DR, so I'll use
that to derive an estimate of particle size required.  At 500 km/s,
that works out to a mass of about 0.16 grams, which I will round down
to 0.1 grams to give some benefit of the doubt to the defending side.

Each canister must thus have a mass of about a million tonnes.  You
would actually need a few times that to account for dispersion.


Your countermissile idea was better.  I've designed and played it
using Vehicles rules, and it is a highly reliable system for
intercepting missiles.

It would probably fail horribly when faced with a "silent launch" from
an untracked ship though.  In my Vehicles test of this scenario, most
of the missiles weren't detected until about 10 seconds before impact.
Even with an immediate launch at 30 gees, they couldn't intercept the
missiles at a safe distance.  In such a case, lasers are about the
only option -- and even then, not a good one.


- Tim

--__--__--

Message: 12
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 01:45:33 PST
Organization: Shadownet
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

In mail you write:

>> >That's John Milius.
>> 
>> So it is . . . he still should have directed Starship Troopers.
>> 
>> LKW
>
> Anyone _OTHER_ than Verhoeven should have directed Starship Troopers.

Yeah, but if he directed Red Dawn, he *definitely* makes the short list.


-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


--__--__--

Message: 13
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 20:37:58 +1000
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] mines
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Terry Carlino wrote:
[2D maps vs 3D maps]
> What has that to do with anything. A det-laser mine that can fire
> across a 10,000 mile hex, can fire across a 10,000 sphere.

The difference is in how many you need.  A typical interplanetary
"traffic lane" would be a few million miles wide (say 5 million).  On
a 2-D map, you only need 500 mines which is expensive but probably
doable.  On a 3D map you need 250,000 -- that's almost certain to
break your budget given how much they cost each.

Note that I'm not saying mines are ineffective in general, I was
commenting in the thread that started with an attacker trying to use
them to destroy interplanetary commerce.  I don't think that will work
well enough to be worthwhile.


> After doing some searching on my hard drive I find that actual range
> is more like 9 hexes, so in a three dimensional game that would be a
> sphere 180,000 miles across.

9 hexes range is a lot better.  You only need about 800 to cover that
traffic lane. 


> I think the best system we came up with was one where the mines were
> controlled by either a controlling sensor platform or a ship. This
> makes the mines smaller and cheaper. The sensors "paint" the target
> for the passive sensors on the mines to pick up.

Yes, that rings a bell.  Again, more effective in 2D than 3D, but
useful for covering the space near a planet or other "small" area.


> Part of the point would be to force ships attempting to traverse the
> area to slow down, use sensors and weapons to clear the mine
> field. This alone would make them detectable to opposing craft.

I've not found detection of enemy craft to be much of a problem in my
test-bed runs.  Usually the side with mines controls the system, sees
the jump flash of any intruder, and can track everything they
subsequently do.

Maybe I'm just lacking battle experience against other people.  Is
avoiding detection by the defender a possibility in most people's
scenarios?


- Tim

--__--__--

Message: 14
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 20:42:57 +1000
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] The big fleet debate
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

David P. Summers wrote:
> What is the view toward using nukes for point defense?

My first thought would be "Is it worthwhile?"

Politically, I suspect it lies in a murky area.  In practice, I
suspect that the advantages of using nuclear weapons for defense
aren't sufficient to be worth the chance that the other side might
take it as a sign that it's OK for them to use nukes in offense.

I can see very clear advantages to using nukes offensively...


- Tim

--__--__--

Message: 15
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 20:44:12 +1000
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] The big fleet debate
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Terry Carlino wrote:
> The only reason I can think of is to allow you to self destruct the
> missile if necessary.

Yes, I guess that makes sense.  Thanks :)


- Tim

--__--__--

Message: 16
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 04:14:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Cessna <graymask1120@yahoo.com>
To: TML <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: [TML] Ad campaign......
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Just a thought for an InstellArms catalog:

http://www.missilesandfirecontrol.com/our_products/antiarmor.html

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

--__--__--

Message: 17
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Organization: Babel and Chaos
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 00:03:47 +1200
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Mines
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

On 6 Aug 2002 at 17:43, Timothy Little wrote:

> Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > No, I forgot to mention that this model can run the sensor and brain 
> > for 7 days.
> 
> Phew, that's quite a bit better.  You're right about the huge drain
> for PEMS though.  Aren't they meant to be *passive* sensors?

Yeah. I think they must use valves in their signal processor, or 
something. :)

> > Perhaps a CAPTOR style sensor platform with a number of small missiles 

> > on board would be a workable comprimise, though it'd start getting 
> > expensive real quick, and it wouldn't be long before most design 
> > committees turned it into a small battle-station by adding point 
> > defence, etc. I'm sure.
> 
> I strongly suspect so, yes.  Trouble is, they'd probably be right :(
> Maybe small mines aren't viable in FF&S?

It depends what for. That first design I posted was only 1 m^3 in 
volume, and would be quite hard to avoid, I think. the 3 G-turns of 
fuel it had is enough to guarantee that it can get into firing position 
of anything that comes within 60,000km or so (a turn in TNE is 30 
minutes, and a hex 30,000km).

By ditching the rocket the volume can be brought down to 0.6 m^3 and 
the cost to MCr1.423 at TL15, but then the mine can only attack craft 
that come into its hex - within 10-15,000km or so. I tried taking off 
the Electromagnetic Masking (EMM), but that didn't save any significant 
space, money or power.

Actually playing around I see that if a fusion reactor of minimum size 
is put in (assuming TL15 that's 0.1 m^3 and 0.6MW) you can still have 
the basic 1 m^3 mine, and about 4 months fuel, with no noticeable 
increase in cost. In fact the limit to performance suddenly bocomes 
surface area on which to mount the PEMS.

Thus:

TL Guidance Vol Mass AV MCr   G-Turns Warhead Hits Damage  Range
15 Full-Ind 1   1.26 3  1.547 3/3     50kt    1D6  1/14-43 0

Comm Sensor Signatures     Asset
10L  1P     +4/+3/+4/+3/+1 4/8

with a duration for the sensor and brain of 4 months.

Or, for a bigger job:

TL Guidance Vol Mass AV MCr   G-Turns Warhead Hits Damage  Range
15 Full-Ind 7   8.48 3  7.434 3/3     500kt   1D6  1/25-79 0

Comm Sensor Signatures     Asset
10L  5P     +4/+3/+4/+3/+1 6/16

This thing has a short range of 150,000km for its PEMS and a maximum of 
1,200,000km and a year's fuel for the fusion plant that powers its 
sensor and brain (the same plant as the little 'um uses, BTW). It has a 
fairly weak motor because it's still got a crappy little EAPlaC solid 
fuel rocket instead of a nice HEPlaR or thruster system. This way it's 
not sensitive to issues version or canon the same way (FWIW).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


--__--__--

Message: 18
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 08:08:27 -0400
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

>I am of the view that we are not going very far as a species 
>until we manage to get our act together on Earth and solve 
>the seemingly insurmountable problems - of our own doing - 
>facing us. Even interplanetary travel on any significant 
>scale is just not going to happen unless we instigate a 
>paradigm shift in the way we behave towards each other and
>towards life in general. Is it unreasonable to assume that 
>any sentient species that gains control of its environment 
>has to learn to curb exponential growth and a corresponding 
>exponential increase in the demand for resources? Only once 
>this hurdle is overcome will the ability to harness the 
>resources of a single solar system and the ability to travel 
>to other solar systems be developed.

This is the Sagan hypothesis - that sufficiently advanced 
alien life forms will have learned to be "peaceful".  There 
is no reason that this has to be so.  If a warlike species 
came to be dominated by a single high tech faction, through 
limited nuclear war and genocidal action, and used this high 
technology to permanently dominate and subjugate its 
population, it would survive its birth into a nuclear age and 
birth into a starfaring age.

Sufficiently advanced technology makes life on an airless 
rockball possible - why would such a species need to preserve 
its wildlife? 

It is simply not logical to conclude that we must get our act 
together in some peaceful manner.  All that is required is 
that we get our act together - and this could be done today 
by the United States, largely through the use of force.  We 
could solve many problems at once - the population problem, 
the poverty of the third world, the source of most terrorists 
around the world, religions that are inimical to US goals, up 
and coming governments that will consume resources to no good 
end - imagine the tyranny of technological might that could 
annihilate several billion people in a few weeks, and spend 
the world's resources on going to the stars.

A peaceful Sagan-like world that ran across a violent world 
where both were capable of building antimatter rockets would 
be annihilated by the violent world in the time it took for 
the rockets to cross the distance.  The peaceful would die 
with startled looks on their faces as the radars showed the 
near-C projectiles coming in.

Scary, isn't it?  But I think that across the stars, this is 
the far more likely scenario.  Sagan was a dreamer, a wishful 
thinker whose idea of transgression was cheating on his wife.

When I see pictures of children overseas holding AK-47s, I 
see a future where alien races are holding antimatter rockets 
and near-C rocks.  Same picture.  It's not a good idea to 
shout, "Here I am!" in a jungle like that.
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

--__--__--

Message: 19
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 08:19:15 -0400
From: knightsky@juno.com
Subject: [TML] GURPS Interstellar Wars
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Many of you have probably already run across this, but for those who
haven't, check out Evil Stevie's Daily Illuminator
(http://www.sjgames.com/ill/) for the 8/6/02 entry.


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"




________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

--__--__--

Message: 20
From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] GURPS Interstellar Wars
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 08:43:47 -0500
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

> Many of you have probably already run across this, but for those who
> haven't, check out Evil Stevie's Daily Illuminator
> (http://www.sjgames.com/ill/) for the 8/6/02 entry.

I hadn't see it yet, but it does sound interesting.  The only thing
I hope is that this doesn't mean they are abandoning their alternate
history.

They have just gotten to the cusp of 1120 and actually having history
move forward.  It will be quite disappointing if instead history just
stops at 1120 as they abandon it for the Interstellar Wars.

Mike West

--__--__--

Message: 21
From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>
To: "'tml@travellercentral.com'" <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] The cloak
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 10:40:25 -0400 
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

I once ran through the Maxcy dorm parking lot at USC wearing only sneakers
and a Spuds McKenzie beach towel around my neck (yelling "SCIENCE!" at the
top of my lungs for reasons that now escape me)...does that count as 
wearing
a cloak? 

--__--__--

Message: 22
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 09:10:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

David Shayne writes:

> Standard densities. With Earth = 1. Doesn't look so horibly wrong now
> does it? 

Ok, that's not as bad. 

--__--__--

Message: 23
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 09:17:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

David P. Summers writes:

> You are assuming close packed spheres.

Actually, I'm assuming a flat 'shell' of fighters.  Volume covered is 
actually
third order in range.
> ground per sensor by moveing around).  Also, If you take sensor input 
> from multiple sensors and combine them, it is possible to generate 
> detection of things that couldn't be detected within the range of 
> anyone sensor.

GURPS doesn't really cover array sensors (if you're going to apply that 
bit of
realism, there's a lot of other realism tweaks you can make as well), but
interferometry really isn't going to help much with deep space detection, 
as
(a) it mostly improves resolution, not sensitivity, and (b) it massively
reduces coverage, meaning you're likely to miss objects entirely due to 
looking
in the wrong direction.
 
>  Lastly, the advantage that a fighter gives only its 
> own position, and not that of the capital ship, if it is caught first 
> is non-trivial

If stealth were particularly meaningful or interesting in space, sure.  In
practice, having multiple small ships just guarantees you'll be spotted, 
due to
other quirks in the sensor rules.


--__--__--

_______________________________________________
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TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


End of TML Digest





Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 18:46:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Tue Aug  6 17:46:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
References: <200208070000.MFJ02183@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D506907.B582A8E7@mindspring.com>

"John T. Kwon" wrote:
> 
> alan spik says
> <snip the enlisted view of the change of command>
> 
> the sergeant major kept me and a couple of other guys in the
> rear of the formation.  we were supposed to watch out for
> people about to fall out, and as discreetly as possible, move
> forward and get them out of formation.
> 
> hot sun, standing in one place for a long time, etc...
> ________________
> FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

I don't think the Navy was that organized. Read with amusement Doug's
post about marching. At every CoC I attended, we were given a time to be
there. We were expected to, and did meander our way over and meet the
Chief who would tell us where to stand. Usually a big gaggle(Pod?), then
the Master Chief would come out and make everyone straiten up in ranks,
and the show would get started about thirty minutes later. I remember
several people falling out.

-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
If you can't convince them, confuse them.
                -Harry S. Truman

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 19:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 18:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
Message-ID: <OFEF204F0E.98F09E48-ONCA256C0E.00054E5A@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Steven wrote:
>(Incidentally, I remember there being a single 1-point TL 16 unit in
>=46FW, which I always assumed to be the player characters!)

ROFL! Better chalk up a keyboard kill for that one!

I can just picture the group in my mind - a bunch of unruly, slavering 
warmongers, weighed down with all those nasty weapons and ammo that they 
couldn't possibly carry in Real Life, propbably tooling down the street in 
a Lancer, and who are they?

PCs!!

"Fear Them!!"

(...and players reckon they can't change the course of major events! ;-))
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 19:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 18:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <6c.205466db.2a81ce42@aol.com>

>Keeping in mind that it's been a while...
>
>A Naval change of command reflects the fact that the Captain of the
>vessel/unit/whatever IS the vessel/unit/whatever. 

A Hollywood version of the change of command (and a damned good performance 
by Humphrey Bogart) can be seen in THE CAINE MUTINY. A great movie, and an 
interesting approach to the US Navy in WWII, albeit not as historically 
accurate as it could be.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 19:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 18:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
Message-ID: <cb.263b55e1.2a81d002@aol.com>

>Jeff D. Greenly" says
><snip naval change of command>
>
>Don't forget - the outgoing commander has to do an inventory 
>with the new commander, and the new commander gets to sign 
>for the ship and all of the equipment in it.

Naval JAG: So what happened to the three 15" guns that used to in the aft 
turret?
Captain: What 15" guns? This is a destroyer!
Naval JAG: The ones in the property book you signed for when you took 
command. I'm afraid we can't allow you to retire until those are paid for . . 
. 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 19:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 18:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
Message-ID: <40.21dfb589.2a81d093@aol.com>

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>Naval JAG: So what happened to the three 15" guns that used to in the aft 
>turret?
>Captain: What 15" guns? This is a destroyer!
>Naval JAG: The ones in the property book you signed for when you took 
>command. I'm afraid we can't allow you to retire until those are paid for . 
. 

Heh. Anyone remember the classic SF story "Allamagoosa?"

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt;Naval JAG: So what happened to the three 15" guns that used to in the aft 
<BR>&gt;turret?
<BR>&gt;Captain: What 15" guns? This is a destroyer!
<BR>&gt;Naval JAG: The ones in the property book you signed for when you took 
<BR>&gt;command. I'm afraid we can't allow you to retire until those are paid for . . 
<BR>
<BR>Heh. Anyone remember the classic SF story "Allamagoosa?"
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_40.21dfb589.2a81d093_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 19:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 18:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <OFD36DEE2F.D870CE31-ONCA256C0E.00093695@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

From Jesse & Doug:
>>>What about artists?  ;)
>>
>>Back in your hole, polygon boy!  When we want something from you, we'll 
do
>>the usual thing.  Toss a contract and art specs in your cage and pray 
you
>>don't ruin our finely crafted prose with your "art."
>
>No more grav tanks you Penguin Boy ;)
>
>And that should read:
>"When we want something from you, we'll do the usual thing.  *At the last 
minute,* toss >a contract and, *if you're lucky*, art specs in your cage 
and pray you don't ruin our >finely crafted prose with your "art."

Love it! Some friendly banter between Penguin Boy and The Polygon Kid.

I'm settling down with some popcorn.

;-)  ;-)

(BTW Jesse, when your next page update going to happen? %^)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 19:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 18:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <OFBDFF848E.6EC3E744-ONCA256C0E.0009E3EB@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Leonard wrote:
>If we can't follow our own laws except when it is convenient, we are
>all at the mercy of anybody in a position of authorty.

Welcome to the "rule of men, not laws".

BTW, did you receive the Straker Theme I sent over?

BTW #2, the mailer seems to be adding multiple copies of selected mail 
items to the digest. Is anyone in non-digest mode experiencing the same 
thing?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 20:19:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Tue Aug  6 19:19:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <40.21dfb589.2a81d093@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020806211959.00a6ea80@minn.net>

At 09:23 PM 8/6/2002 EDT, Jon F. Zeigler wrote:
>>Naval JAG: So what happened to the three 15" guns that used to in the aft  
>>turret? 
>>Captain: What 15" guns? This is a destroyer! 
>>Naval JAG: The ones in the property book you signed for when you took  
>>command. I'm afraid we can't allow you to retire until those are paid for
>. .  
> 
>Heh. Anyone remember the classic SF story "Allamagoosa?" 

Has anyone seen the offog?


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 20:25:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Aug  6 19:25:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <m3sn1yqp9b.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20806.173519.2Q3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
>>
>> Perhaps captured officers (or at least gentlebeings) are even given
>> their parole.
>
> How exactly does this work?  Does one promise not to fight against
> one's captor ever again, or simply for a time period, or until the end
> of the current engagement, or until one has journeyed back home,
> or...?  I've considered it pretty rotten that US soldiers are not
> allowed to give their parole and get back home, but perhaps that's
> just me.

Actually, in the Napoleonic era, "giving your parole" could be far more
limited. For example, it would let you wander about the base you were
being kept at without an escort. You'd have agreed to not try to escape
or to damage anything.

The sort that would get you released would likely involve not fighting
against them again during that war. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 20:34:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 19:34:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <OFBA2D763C.F2E139E2-ONCA256C0E.000A4049@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

David Smart wrote:
>Do you know how difficult it is for me to NOT
>print T-shirts of his stuff for personal use?

I'd been thinking about this for a while, too. A copyright question that I 
don't know the answer to is, "Is it 'fair use' if I put a Jesse picture on 
ONE T-Shirt for my own use?"

The alternative I thought of was asking Jesse for permission to make _two_ 
shirts, and sending him the second one as "payment". ;-)

Jesse, your thoughts?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 20:35:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dave Strebe)
Date: Tue Aug  6 19:35:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
References: <40.21dfb589.2a81d093@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002901c23db6$2a3bcea0$6401a8c0@vs.shawcable.net>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--Boundary_(ID_pKnSt/fCjzOf2fxs/cwTgA)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

That the one with the 'disappearing ships dog'.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JFZeigler@aol.com 
  To: tml@travellercentral.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 6:23 PM
  Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Silly Question


  >Naval JAG: So what happened to the three 15" guns that used to in the aft 
  >turret? 
  >Captain: What 15" guns? This is a destroyer! 
  >Naval JAG: The ones in the property book you signed for when you took 
  >command. I'm afraid we can't allow you to retire until those are paid for . . 

  Heh. Anyone remember the classic SF story "Allamagoosa?" 

  ---------- 
  Jon F. Zeigler 
  Line Editor, GURPS Traveller 
  jon@sjgames.com 
  "The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events." 

--Boundary_(ID_pKnSt/fCjzOf2fxs/cwTgA)
Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2716.2200" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>That the one with the 'disappearing ships 
dog'.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV 
  style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> 
  <A title=JFZeigler@aol.com 
  href="mailto:JFZeigler@aol.com">JFZeigler@aol.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=tml@travellercentral.com 
  href="mailto:tml@travellercentral.com">tml@travellercentral.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 06, 2002 6:23 
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [TML] Re: Silly 
  Question</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=2>&gt;Naval JAG: So what 
  happened to the three 15" guns that used to in the aft <BR>&gt;turret? 
  <BR>&gt;Captain: What 15" guns? This is a destroyer! <BR>&gt;Naval JAG: The 
  ones in the property book you signed for when you took <BR>&gt;command. I'm 
  afraid we can't allow you to retire until those are paid for . . <BR><BR>Heh. 
  Anyone remember the classic SF story "Allamagoosa?" <BR><BR>---------- <BR>Jon 
  F. Zeigler <BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller <BR>jon@sjgames.com <BR>"The 
  referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT> 
</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

--Boundary_(ID_pKnSt/fCjzOf2fxs/cwTgA)--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 20:41:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 19:41:11 2002
Subject: [TML] I reposted an entire Digest - Sorry!
Message-ID: <OF01BB50EA.68DB5AEA-ONCA256C0E.000E29B4@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

*Profound Apology*

I managed to forget to wipe out the rest of the message (ie. the entire 
contents of the digest) when I sent one of my "T20 background question" responses.

Sorry sorry sorry! (especially to those with bandwidth issues)

<shuffles off, embarrassed... mutter mutter, "swore I'd never do that!" 
mutter...>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 20:46:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Aug  6 19:46:13 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
In-Reply-To: <3d50427f.7657767@post.demon.co.uk>
References: <006301c23ce3$2bcea180$eeb18b90@computer>
 <006301c23ce3$2bcea180$eeb18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020806223905.027bbeb8@192.168.0.1>

At 10:48 PM 8/6/2002 +0000, Stephen Tempest wrote:
>"Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com> writes:
> >The counter mix from Invasion Earth might be worth studying.
>There aren't any TL15 units on either side.
>The Imperial Marines are 78% TL14 (1 division, 3 regiments) plus 2 IM
>regiments at TL12 and TL13.
>The Imperial regular army is 70% TL14, 20% TL13, 10% TL12.
>Imperial colonial forces (which account for about 30% of the total
>Imperial strength) are TL11 - TL14, with TL12 being the norm.
>Solomani regular troops are 43% TL14, 42% TL 13, 11% TL12 and 4% TL11.
>The local Terran guerrillas are all TL 13.

Ah...perfect, thanks

I wanted to come up with some light Solomani ship that would be active in 
the Rim War.
400 ton commerce raiders, transports for Commando units, that sort of thing.
Perhaps a light carrier at TL 12 carrying TL 13/14 fighters.
Just the sort of thing you want mucking around behind enemy lines....



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Firm footwork is the fount from which springs all
offense and defense." -- Giacomo diGrasse, 1570
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 21:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mosaic Tapestry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 20:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <40.21dfb589.2a81d093@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003c01c23dc2$11fe1850$2f7de40c@loki>

Allamagoosa

Eric Frank Russell (1905-1976) Born Sandhurst, Surrey. His father was in
the military and his family moved a number of times. He spent part of
his youth in Egypt and Sudan. At college, he studied a variety of
subjects including chemistry, physics and metallurgy. During WWII, he
took radio courses in London and at the Marconi College in Chelmsford,
eventually leading a small RAF mobile radio unit attached to General
Patton's army. He worked for a time in an engineering firm, published
his first novel in 1939, and later became a full-time writer. In his
later years, he gave up writing. 

Allamagoosa is, well, clever. It's fun to read, and amusing, and it's
one of those short stories with a punch line. The crew of a ship,
knowing that they're about to be audited, want to be sure there are no
discrepancies between the actual contents of their ship and the
inventory thereof. Except there *is* a discrepancy, and...I won't spoil
it for you. The Hugo winners are anthologized and pretty widely
available, and it's only a few pages long. Go ahead and read it, it'll
give you a chuckle.

Eric Frank Russell never became as famous as many of the other Hugo
Winners, but some of his novels have recently been re-issued and are
available at Amazon(1). Shadow Man: The life and works of Eric Frank
Russell(2) is a good fan site. For some reviews of some of Russell's
other works, visit this site(3).


(1)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/103-2568973-2316640
This link credits Loren with the assist at Amazon.
(2) http://www.stageleft.com.au/efr/
(3) http://ftp.logica.com/~stepneys/sf/books/r/russell.htm



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 21:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 20:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] GURPS Interstellar Wars
Message-ID: <157.120f94ca.2a81edae@aol.com>

> Many of you have probably already run across this, but for those who
> haven't, check out Evil Stevie's Daily Illuminator
> (http://www.sjgames.com/ill/) for the 8/6/02 entry.

I hadn't see it yet, but it does sound interesting.  The only thing
I hope is that this doesn't mean they are abandoning their alternate
history.

They have just gotten to the cusp of 1120 and actually having history
move forward.  It will be quite disappointing if instead history just
stops at 1120 as they abandon it for the Interstellar Wars.

The license is for BOTH the alternate universe and the Interstellar Wars 
period, and we are not going to abandon the alternate timeline. There is too 
much cool stuff that needs to see print.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 21:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 20:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: army usage
Message-ID: <159.121cd731.2a81f025@aol.com>

 >>I really think you should do some research on the situation in 
 >>Afganisthan and how everything went down before blurting things out.
 >>The main population of Afganisthan was opposed to the Taliban, which
 >>is mainly from a tribe to the south west (I think). 
 >
 >Tommy, you should do some research, too.  The Taliban was composed
 >primarily of Pakistani and Saudi volunteers who called themselves
 >"students" (of Islam).

No.  To my knowledge, on that particular point he's right.  The Taliban 
stronghold is in the large and populous tribes of southern Afghanistan.  As I 
understand it they are the largest single group of tribes and are in fact 
extensions of the tribes in Pakistan, which would be why Pakistan supported 
them.  It was Al Qaida that were "the Arabs", the foreigners.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 21:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Hamill)
Date: Tue Aug  6 20:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
In-Reply-To: <20020806190006.21475.58141.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020807034518.1959.qmail@web21510.mail.yahoo.com>

Excuse me, but does anyone happen to know the URL of
the GTS program by Thomas Bont? All the addresses I
have for it are broken, and I really need that program
yesterday. I have a chance to get a two-part GURPS:
Traveller game together, during a weekend mini-con at
the local game store, and I really need a couple of
ships fast. Well, faster than I can do them by hand,
anyway. Thanks for your help (in advance).

John
jwdh71@yahoo.com 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 21:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Aug  6 20:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <003c01c23dc2$11fe1850$2f7de40c@loki>
References: <003c01c23dc2$11fe1850$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <1028692602.3d509a7a7909e@www.paradise.net.nz>

Quoting Mosaic Tapestry <n2sami@attbi.com>:

> Eric Frank Russell never became as famous as many of the other Hugo
> Winners, but some of his novels have recently been re-issued and are
> available at Amazon(1). Shadow Man: The life and works of Eric Frank
> Russell(2) is a good fan site. For some reviews of some of Russell's
> other works, visit this site(3).

Eric Frank Russel is one of my favourite old-time SF writers. _Men, Martians 
and Machines_ and _The Great Explosion_ probably being my two favourites.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 22:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Tue Aug  6 21:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
In-Reply-To: <20020807034518.1959.qmail@web21510.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001501c23dc7$ff408580$0b01a8c0@duck>

http://webpages.charter.net/tombont/

I *love* this program.  He does take some minor liberties,
but it is more than close enough and it does the ugly stuff
for you to make your life easier.

Mike West
mjwest@caddocourt.com 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John Hamill
> Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 10:45 PM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
> 
> 
> Excuse me, but does anyone happen to know the URL of
> the GTS program by Thomas Bont? All the addresses I
> have for it are broken, and I really need that program
> yesterday. I have a chance to get a two-part GURPS:
> Traveller game together, during a weekend mini-con at
> the local game store, and I really need a couple of
> ships fast. Well, faster than I can do them by hand,
> anyway. Thanks for your help (in advance).
> 
> John
> jwdh71@yahoo.com 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
> http://health.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 22:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mosaic Tapestry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 21:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
In-Reply-To: <20020807034518.1959.qmail@web21510.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <004501c23dc8$887ca9a0$2f7de40c@loki>

You can find it midway down this page:

http://www.sjgames.com/general/gm-aids.html



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 22:14:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mosaic Tapestry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 21:14:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <1028692602.3d509a7a7909e@www.paradise.net.nz>
Message-ID: <004601c23dc8$c24f36c0$2f7de40c@loki>

Quoting Mosaic Tapestry <n2sami@attbi.com>:

> Eric Frank Russell never became as famous as many of the other Hugo

BTW, these words are not my own but were pinched from I can't remember
where on the web.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 22:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 21:26:03 2002
Subject: MT Vehicles (was: Re: [TML] Landgrab )
Message-ID: <OF72559D70.D8259EC8-ONCA256C0E.0010593F@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Peter asked:
>Does anyone have (or know of) some software  or  spreadsheet  for
>creating ground vehicles using MT rules?  I need to create  about
>a dozen different military vehicles for my Efate landgrab.

I created one, but it is a little basic and assumes you have the rules to 
plug the numbers in. (I did it years ago when I was worried about 
copyright and didn't know how to write a database spreadsheet. I still 
don't... ;-)

I downloaded one from the 'net... Ships III from Ace and The Dog's 
website. However, I can't remember if it covers vehicles. It's a bit flaky 
and can crash unexpectedly, so save often!
        http://www.ace-dog.com/downloads/downloads.htm

Would pulling a couple of designs from 101 Vehicles help? What are you 
after, specifically?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 22:50:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Hamill)
Date: Tue Aug  6 21:50:04 2002
Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
In-Reply-To: <001501c23dc7$ff408580$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <20020807044905.11399.qmail@web21510.mail.yahoo.com>

Thank you VERY much, this is a life saver. Now all I
have to do is build a couple of ships, half a dozen
PC's and about 10 NPC's by Friday. Peice of cake. :-)

--- Mike West <mjwest@caddocourt.com> wrote:
> http://webpages.charter.net/tombont/
> 
> I *love* this program.  He does take some minor
> liberties,
> but it is more than close enough and it does the
> ugly stuff
> for you to make your life easier.
> 
> Mike West
> mjwest@caddocourt.com 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> > [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf
> Of John Hamill
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 10:45 PM
> > To: tml@travellercentral.com
> > Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
> > 
> > 
> > Excuse me, but does anyone happen to know the URL
> of
> > the GTS program by Thomas Bont? All the addresses
> I
> > have for it are broken, and I really need that
> program
> > yesterday. I have a chance to get a two-part
> GURPS:
> > Traveller game together, during a weekend mini-con
> at
> > the local game store, and I really need a couple
> of
> > ships fast. Well, faster than I can do them by
> hand,
> > anyway. Thanks for your help (in advance).
> > 
> > John
> > jwdh71@yahoo.com 
> > 
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
> > http://health.yahoo.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > TML mailing list
> > TML@travellercentral.com
> >
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> > 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 22:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Tue Aug  6 21:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
In-Reply-To: <20020807044905.11399.qmail@web21510.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001601c23dce$de6fa050$0b01a8c0@duck>

When you click down, please also take note of the GURPS Character Maker.
That should help with the second part.  :-)

Oh, and I forgot to mention in the first message that it seems he
renamed the program to GURPS Modular Vehicles (GMV).  The link on the 
SJG site references a slightly older version that is still called GTS.

Mike West
mjwest@caddocourt.com 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John Hamill
> Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 11:49 PM
> To: Mike West
> Cc: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: RE: [TML] GTS-the program
> 
> 
> Thank you VERY much, this is a life saver. Now all I
> have to do is build a couple of ships, half a dozen
> PC's and about 10 NPC's by Friday. Peice of cake. :-)
> 
> --- Mike West <mjwest@caddocourt.com> wrote:
> > http://webpages.charter.net/tombont/
> > 
> > I *love* this program.  He does take some minor
> > liberties,
> > but it is more than close enough and it does the
> > ugly stuff
> > for you to make your life easier.
> > 
> > Mike West
> > mjwest@caddocourt.com 
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> > > [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf
> > Of John Hamill
> > > Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 10:45 PM
> > > To: tml@travellercentral.com
> > > Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Excuse me, but does anyone happen to know the URL
> > of
> > > the GTS program by Thomas Bont? All the addresses
> > I
> > > have for it are broken, and I really need that
> > program
> > > yesterday. I have a chance to get a two-part
> > GURPS:
> > > Traveller game together, during a weekend mini-con
> > at
> > > the local game store, and I really need a couple
> > of
> > > ships fast. Well, faster than I can do them by
> > hand,
> > > anyway. Thanks for your help (in advance).
> > > 
> > > John
> > > jwdh71@yahoo.com 
> > > 
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
> > > http://health.yahoo.com
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > TML mailing list
> > > TML@travellercentral.com
> > >
> >
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> > > 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
> http://health.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 23:00:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Tue Aug  6 22:00:05 2002
Subject: [TML] GURPS Interstellar Wars
In-Reply-To: <157.120f94ca.2a81edae@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001701c23dcf$39dd3c40$0b01a8c0@duck>

> > Many of you have probably already run across this, but for those who
> > haven't, check out Evil Stevie's Daily Illuminator
> > (http://www.sjgames.com/ill/) for the 8/6/02 entry.
>
> I hadn't see it yet, but it does sound interesting.  The only thing
> I hope is that this doesn't mean they are abandoning their alternate
> history.
> ----------------
>
> The license is for BOTH the alternate universe and the Interstellar Wars
> period, and we are not going to abandon the alternate timeline. There is
too
> much cool stuff that needs to see print.
>
> LKW

I figured this was the case, but just wanted to make sure.  Thank you
for the quick response.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 23:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Hamill)
Date: Tue Aug  6 22:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
In-Reply-To: <001601c23dce$de6fa050$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <20020807053026.71876.qmail@web21501.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Mike West <mjwest@caddocourt.com> wrote:
> When you click down, please also take note of the
> GURPS Character Maker.
> That should help with the second part.  :-)

Thanks, already seen and acquired, er, liberated, er
downloaded, yeah, that's it. :-)

> Oh, and I forgot to mention in the first message
> that it seems he
> renamed the program to GURPS Modular Vehicles (GMV).
>  The link on the 
> SJG site references a slightly older version that is
> still called GTS.
> 
> Mike West
> mjwest@caddocourt.com 

Thanks, I saw that too, I think he had done that after
he added the modular grav vehicle rules, much crunchy
goodness.

John
jwdh71@yahoo.com
 
> > 
> > 
> > Thank you VERY much, this is a life saver. Now all
> I
> > have to do is build a couple of ships, half a
> dozen
> > PC's and about 10 NPC's by Friday. Peice of cake.
> :-)
> > 
> > --- Mike West <mjwest@caddocourt.com> wrote:
> > > http://webpages.charter.net/tombont/
> > > 
> > > I *love* this program.  He does take some minor
> > > liberties,
> > > but it is more than close enough and it does the
> > > ugly stuff
> > > for you to make your life easier.
> > > 
> > > Mike West
> > > mjwest@caddocourt.com 
> > > 
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > 
> > > > Excuse me, but does anyone happen to know the
> URL
> > > of
> > > > the GTS program by Thomas Bont? All the
> addresses
> > > I
> > > > have for it are broken, and I really need that
> > > program
> > > > yesterday. I have a chance to get a two-part
> > > GURPS:
> > > > Traveller game together, during a weekend
> mini-con
> > > at
> > > > the local game store, and I really need a
> couple
> > > of
> > > > ships fast. Well, faster than I can do them by
> > > hand,
> > > > anyway. Thanks for your help (in advance).
> > > > 
> > > > John
> > > > jwdh71@yahoo.com 
> > > > 
> > > >
> __________________________________________________
> > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
> > > > http://health.yahoo.com
> > > >
> _______________________________________________
> > > > TML mailing list
> > > > TML@travellercentral.com
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> > > > 



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 23:45:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Clint Rynners)
Date: Tue Aug  6 22:45:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
Message-ID: <OFDEC7001F.B4AA8375-ON42256C0E.001D1133@ko.com>

"Sufficiently advanced technology makes life on an airless
rockball possible - why would such a species need to preserve
its wildlife?"

Mr Kwon

I wondered about that myself, but had no ready answers, not being a
biologist. I partially agree that we would not need to preserve our
wildlife, but I believe that we need biomass in some form to survive.
Perhaps not as complex a system as we currently have on Earth, but in some
form that provides life support for us. We could speculate that an advanced
species could move beyond biological dependency - living as complex pieces
of code in a virtual reality, or in more robust machine forms. However, I
do think that before we reach this stage, we are going to remain dependent
on a biological system that we poorly understand and which we have severely
damaged. I am not a rabid vegan greeny, but I do believe that we have to
change the way we do things before we can marshal the resources to expand
off our world.

"If a warlike species
came to be dominated by a single high tech faction, through
limited nuclear war and genocidal action, and used this high
technology to permanently dominate and subjugate its
population, it would survive its birth into a nuclear age and
birth into a starfaring age."

Your contention that the solution to problems caused by exponential growth
does not have to be peaceful has merit,  I just don't believe that it will
happen with humanity now. At this stage of our global society, where one
power possibly has the military lead necessary to take the path you
suggest, the will is no longer there. This has something to do with a
hangover from the horrors that were visited on the world over the past 50
years. I do believe that if the USA mobilised fully, it could impose a
single world government, but I think the cost would be terrible.

Could it turned out differently? Possibly, but I don't have the frame of
reference for seeing this. In the one example we have to go on, a single
power has never had such a clear lead that an attempt at global control
would not  have entailed a great risk to the extermination of humanity. I
also note that the great warmongering empires have not persisted for very
long when they attempted to impose their version of manifest destiny on the
world. If you belong to a warmongering species, your opponents are not
going to roll over and play dead.

Having said all this, if sentient life is fairly widespread in our
universe, then the probability of of your scenario occuring could be high,
and likely to have advanced very far already. To misquote Fermi: "Where are
they" then? Even if your warmongering species exists, I retain my
contention that we would be regarded as more of a curiosity than a threat.
We are far more likely to be harvested in some way than simply
exterminated.

Regards

Clint Rynners

ps. after a flurry of typing, I read my response and note that rather than
being focused, it is a meander between a number of different ideas. I hope
it is at least slightly understandable :)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 00:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Tue Aug  6 23:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <20020807020627.6743406c80f7471790ae6758c061e780.in@keywest.kennett.net>

<snip good info.>

Thanks.  Anybody can provide with how the Royal Navy does it?  Has the USN
changed anything from the afore-explained procedure? 

>I think that because the Imperial Navy has such a long history, it
>probably has a lot of cool traditions. Anything that you threw in for
>color, like Marines in some traditional dress uniforms standing behind
>the "quarterdeck", the transfer of a baton, staff or whistle, maybe a
>reading of the ship's history...

Oddly enough....I ask this question because I was busy plotting a story and
realized that I, despite knowing a bit about military, military history,
military life, and military tech, suffered from some gapping holes in my
knowledge base.  That was one of it.

Thanks,

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

 My Sale List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
 My Want List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 00:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue Aug  6 23:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <20020807054503.7786.43314.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentra
 l.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020807234111.009faa50@mailhost.efn.org>

> >Heh. Anyone remember the classic SF story "Allamagoosa?"
>
>Has anyone seen the offog?

"Please describe how official dog Peaslake came apart under gravitational 
stress..."


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 01:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Wed Aug  7 00:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <OFDEC7001F.B4AA8375-ON42256C0E.001D1133@ko.com>
Message-ID: <3D5174AB.19191.F0AB707@localhost>

On 7 Aug 2002, at 7:47, Clint Rynners wrote:

> I wondered about that myself, but had no ready answers, not being a
> biologist. I partially agree that we would not need to preserve our
> wildlife, but I believe that we need biomass in some form to survive.

At the current rates of extinction, somewhere between every six months 
and two years (depending on which biologist you listen to) we destroy one 
undiscovered medicine.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 02:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Wed Aug  7 01:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : OK, Now What?
Message-ID: <000801c23de9$3cfa8300$c69c67cb@robert>

John Kwon wrote:-
> First I keep reading that plasma weapons are not possible -
> the bolt would dissipate a short distance from the barrel.  
<snip>

One potential problem was with dissipation, the other with
the ridiculous energies required (there's a good line in 'Guns, Guns,
Guns'
comparing PGMP-like weapons to Bangalore torpedoes...)

There's been a lot of recent research into ball lightning. Maybe a
militarily useful amount of plasma can be packaged in this way.

Another alternative (as recently seen on rec.arts.sf.science) are
weapons
that fire very small projectiles (~1 gram mass) at high (10s of
kilometers/sec) velocities. These will leave plasma trails as they zip
through the air...


Robert O'Connor
Medico, gamer


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 02:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed Aug  7 01:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Spam Spam Spam Spam...
In-Reply-To: <19d.66884a1.2a7f37e7@aol.com>
References: <19d.66884a1.2a7f37e7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020807105440.0a18f64c.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Sun, 04 Aug 2002 22:07:35 -0400 (EDT)
GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:

> I would expect that any planet in Solomani space settled by Hawaiians would 
> either create or import vast amounts.  How widespread it would get really 
> depends on shelf-life and the viability of swine off Terra. It may just be 
> that pigs just don't taste the same when raised elsewhere, and so all Spam 
> comes from Terra...

Although very oddd, this would make SPAM a luxury product for offworlders...

Come to think of it, most products that come from special places are not considered luxuries there, but they probably are at other locations.

Groat Musk Perfume would be a nasty thing to hit the PCs with...  ;-)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 02:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed Aug  7 01:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] adventure
In-Reply-To: <1ac.6380721.2a7f37b7@aol.com>
References: <1ac.6380721.2a7f37b7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020807105753.493c4a62.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Sun, 04 Aug 2002 22:06:47 -0400 (EDT)
Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> Traveller Adventure: Comet Busters
> 
> For referees only.  If you intend to play this adventure, quit reading now 
> and direct your game referee to this page. 

*sound of harddrive saving file*

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 03:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Wed Aug  7 02:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: army usage
In-Reply-To: <159.121cd731.2a81f025@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D5193C8.30462.F843FC6@localhost>

On 6 Aug 2002, at 23:38, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:


>  >Tommy, you should do some research, too.  The Taliban was composed
>  >primarily of Pakistani and Saudi volunteers who called themselves
>  >"students" (of Islam).

> No.  To my knowledge, on that particular point he's right.  The Taliban 
> stronghold is in the large and populous tribes of southern Afghanistan.  As I
> understand it they are the largest single group of tribes and are in fact
> extensions of the tribes in Pakistan, which would be why Pakistan supported
> them.  It was Al Qaida that were "the Arabs", the foreigners.

Without wanting to get too bogged down into the ins and outs of 
Afghanistan, everybody is wrong and everybody is right. The Taliban 
themselves drew a hard core of support from the Pashtuns (the largest 
ethnic group in Afghanistan).

However, it is a mistake to think that the Taliban were supported by the 
majority of the Afghan population. While the Pashtuns are the largest 
group, they do not form a majority; nor did the Taliban draw their support 
from even a majority of Pashtuns. But the previous rulers (later known as 
the Northern Alliance) engaged in a vicious civil war (even by the standards 
of civil wars) and into this stepped the Taliban (with considerable Pakistani 
and Al Quida support). They started to get an upper hand in the civil war 
and the various tribal warlords saw what they thought was a winner and 
lined up behind them. This created a snowball and very quickly the Taliban 
were in charge.

Fast forward a few years, the former rulers (now known as the Northern 
Alliance) are being slowly ground down. Then enter the US and other 
Western nations with lavish air and logistic support. The various tribal 
warlords see what they think is a winner, line up behind them and the 
same snowball sweeps the Taliban out of power.

Now things have reverted back to the "classic" Afghani pattern. There is a 
"King" controlling Kabul in nominal charge of the country, but the real 
control is in the hands of the various tribal warlords. You have examples 
with US officers turning up at a tribal chieftain's camp and paying him in 
gold for the use of his warriors.

ObTrav: If you can't make a decent low tech govt 0 backwater out of that, 
you just aren't trying.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 04:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug  7 03:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] GURPS MISSILE WARFARE (was The big fleet debate)
In-Reply-To: <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com> <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com> <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net> <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net> <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>

hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> One interesting development was to build a specialized targeting
> computer.

Yes, I've since realised that it is well worth it.  I had thought that
surely a dedicated mainframe or macroframe would be too expensive, but
apparently not.


> The point defense lasers I built could easily attain that ROF bonus. 

Oh, sure.  I had thought you were talking about the standard lasers.
Higher RoF really isn't worth it under the GT rules though.


> Minor thoughts: part of that +10 bonus for Point defense comes of the fact
> that the missiles attempting to hit you have to come in from a specific
> "region".

If that is the reason, the designers overlooked a very important fact:
missiles can, and will, maneuver widely in flight.  The potential
approach region could be nearly 60 degrees wide without much effect on
impact energy.

I think the +10 point defense bonus was really an attempt to model a
"wait till you see the whites of their eyes" perfect firing solution.
Basically it should just say that the range penalty is -29, instead of
range -39 with a random +10 bonus.  Even then, it should really only
be about +5, appropriate for a range of 700 miles.  It doesn't do much
good to disable a kinetic-kill missile 0.3 seconds before it hits.


>  But you are correct.  There should be a MAX number of targets that
> can be engaged by a single laser group per turn equal to the max
> number of shots a single laser in the grouping and put out in a
> turn.

More precisely, equal to how many shots one laser can fire in the time
it takes a missile to get in from the laser's max range.  That time
will almost always be much less than a turn, typically a tenth.


> Using the concept that the current weapon systems are designed to
> operate against the current enemy weapon technology - try using the
> GURPS TRAVELLER missile designs first.  Then do an analysis of
> weapons in the TRAVELLER universe.

Yes, even the standard missiles defeat equal tonnage of standard point
defense, but not by a lot.  The problem is that there is *huge* room
for improvement in the missiles, but not much room for improvement in
the lasers.


> I am still flabberghasted that no one ever noticed that the FAST
> drug makes a FAR better alternative for cheap travel than does a
> freeze tube!

I'm not particularly surprised :)

Often it takes an outside opinion to spot such things.  That's why
game designers have playtests, after all!


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 04:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug  7 03:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <3D4F3B54.62F77189@mindspring.com>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com> <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net> <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <20020805075953.A24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <3436.64.8.3.28.1028520584.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <20020805215043.E25687@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D4F3B54.62F77189@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020807204852.B31397@freeman.little-possums.net>

alan spik wrote:
> I always considered the HE as essentially a frag grenade for
> ships. A small cloud of debris having a better chance to hit.

Yeah, that works too.  Maybe that accounts for the low impact damage
of missiles in G:Traveller compared to G:Vehicles.  80% of the
fragments miss...


> Thanks for a nasty tactic. The Forinians IMMTU are going to be using
> that. I was going to have to bring in more help. I think it will be
> quite a suprise to my players.

Work out what happens if the launching ship can get a run-up of, say,
0.1 AU at 6 gees.  That's a hundred hexes per turn to begin with.  If
the player's side is jumping in to a defended system, their jump flash
will mean that the defender has a very distinct sensor advantage.

I hope it's not the player's ship that gets hit.  200,000 points of
damage per missile is not conducive to a lengthy game session 8^O


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 04:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug  7 03:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
In-Reply-To: <20020806185605.50939.qmail@web10605.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020806185605.50939.qmail@web10605.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020807205547.C31397@freeman.little-possums.net>

Daniel Burns wrote:
> Unlike GT where it seems you can spot those nasty c-rocks at a few

"Argh! Don't say that word!"

> parsecs while they are ramped up to speed,

Sure, a decade or so later when the sensor information gets to you.
It's poking along at light-speed, remember?  :)


> and be waiting for the emergence a week later which will also show
> up easily, right in the middle of your defence solution.  Oops, a
> rant? Well at least 'twas short ;)

Yes, the emergence will be noted.  Not much good that does them
though.  You godda problem wiv dat? ;)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 07:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug  7 06:35:04 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Landgrab of Vilis
Message-ID: <b027a2b020e3.b020e3b027a2@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Date: Tuesday, August 6, 2002 3:08 am
Subject: [TML] re:  Landgrab of Vilis

> >From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
> 
> >If I'm doing Vilis, I think I had better do Garda-Vilis, 
> >unless someone has already done that one.
> 
> That's Tanoose to you, apologist scum!
> 
> This message has been brought to you by the Tanoose Freedom League.


IMTU, as long as the 1199th Infantry Regiment (Jump) (Commando) is 
stationed there, it's Garda-Vilis, thank you very much. ;-)

<<snip disclaimer>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 07:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed Aug  7 06:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D39@USCHM203>

>Leonard Erickson wrote:

>But shooting prisoners or mistreating them is against our *laws*. Which
>is one reason why a number of folks are more that a bit upswet about
>the fact that at the current time we are *violating* our own laws when
>it comes to the people taken prisoner in Afghanistan and held at
>Guantanamo Bay. They haven't been accorded prisoner of war status, nor
>have they been classified as criminals awaiting trial.

>We are damaging our own legal system *badly* by doing this. And that
>and other similar things we are doing are actually more apt to destroy
>the US than the actions of the terrorists!

Actually, these men are NOT POWs. Technically we could have them summarily
executed, and it would be perfectly legal, though would upset alot of
bleeding hearts. 
Partisans, saboteurs, spies, and other irregulars, which certainly includes
terrorists, are not protected by either formal or informal Rules of War or
the Geneva Convention.
During WWII those captured were shot out of hand most of the time, and it
was not considered illegal. I can't recall a single German officer being
tried for shooting such troops (as opposed to retaliating against civilians
for the actions of partisans, which IS illegal).
Allied soldiers and civilians who participated in such covert and irregular
actions were fully aware that they would not be treated as POWs if captured.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 07:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Aug  7 06:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Landgrab of Vilis
Message-ID: <200208071346.MGL01636@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

john groth, off on an adventure, says

>IMTU, as long as the 1199th Infantry Regiment (Jump) 
>(Commando) is stationed there, it's Garda-Vilis, thank you 
>very much. ;-)
>

Mark Urbin will be doing Garda-Vilis, and we'll look into 
putting something there.  The backdrop of the Broadsword 
adventure, however, seems to be that Vilis doesn't have a 
strong military presence at Garda-Vilis, and therefore they 
hire the Broadsword and its mercenaries.

Later in the adventure, merchant ships containing a Vilis 
infantry unit arrives, so this could be the 1199th.

It's odd.  Considering the sheer number of people on Vilis, 
one might imagine that it would have infantrymen coming out 
of their ears.

Also, another oddity - Vilis seems to have a TL 12 ship in 
its navy, although Vilis is not TL 12.  Is this an obsolete 
Imperial ship purchased by Vilis?  Is this sort of thing 
common?  
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 07:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Aug  7 06:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] John Beats The Dead Horse of Imperial Rules Of War...
Message-ID: <200208071354.MGL02479@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Hurrel, Brian says
>Technically we could have them summarily executed, and it 
>would be perfectly legal, though would upset alot of
>bleeding hearts. 

In RL there is the Hague and Geneva Convention.  Plenty of RL 
canon, and lawyers who can pontificate on the subject.

In Traveller, are there distinctions between soldiers, 
combatants (non-uniformed, ad hoc non-soldiers), and non-
combatants?  Obviously, the Hague Convention idea 
that "hollow points are bad" is right out, as the Gauss rifle 
round is described as a hollowpoint.  Not to mention that 
shooting people with a plasma gun is a bit more overkill than 
shooting them with a .50 BMG.

The player characters in any Traveller party would often fall 
into the category of illegal combatant.  They aren't wearing 
a uniform, they don't belong to an official army, and aren't 
part of an officially responsible chain of command.  In a war 
zone, if they were caught fighting an official military 
force, and they surrendered, would they be considered 
prisoners of war, or would they be shot out of hand after the 
local Imperial Marine lieutenant heard his platoon sergeant's 
report?

I'm assuming, of course, that someone in the party was stupid 
enough to fire at the Marines, and that by some miracle, the 
party was not annihilated by the return fire...
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 08:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Wed Aug  7 07:04:03 2002
Subject: MT Vehicles (was: Re: [TML] Landgrab )
References: <OF72559D70.D8259EC8-ONCA256C0E.0010593F@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <000401c23e1b$85fa2ec0$5600a8c0@imogen>

Hyphen wrote:
> Peter asked:
> >Does anyone have (or know of) some software  or  spreadsheet  for
> >creating ground vehicles using MT rules?  I need to create  about
> >a dozen different military vehicles for my Efate landgrab.
> 
> I created one, but it is a little basic and assumes you have the
> rules to plug the numbers in. (I did it years ago when I was
> worried about copyright and didn't know how to write a database
> spreadsheet. I still don't... ;-)
> 
> I downloaded one from the 'net... Ships III from Ace and The Dog's 
> website. However, I can't remember if it covers vehicles. It's a
> bit flaky and can crash unexpectedly, so save often!
>         http://www.ace-dog.com/downloads/downloads.htm
> 
> Would pulling a couple of designs from 101 Vehicles help? What are
> you after, specifically?

Ships III doesn't do vehicles (according to its manual there  are
no ground vehicle drives, etc).  I have been trying  to  use  the
DOS program for vehicles from the same site but it seems to  have
major flaws (either that or my own math  is  way  off).  And  101
Vehicles doesn't have the range I need.

I'm in the process of detailing out the armed forces  of  Efate's
Regular Army for a Landgrab.  As this is  a  place  with  a  high
chance of merc adventures (think  high-tech  'Nam  in  Traveller)
this detail seems more important than with  other  Landgrabs.  So
far I have a need for an MBT, an air  defence  AFV,  3  different
artillery AFVs, assorted AFVs for EW/ND/command/commo, a recovery
vehicle, a field repair vehicle, a G-Carrier with 3 variants,  an
APC with 5 variants, and a fast recon vehicle (possibly a  Trasea
grav bike for the last).  Before I'm done  I'll  probably  double
this list, and thats before I get to the COACC  aerospace  units,
the rear  echelon  support  vehicles,  or  the  typical  civilian
vehicles used by the militia on both sides!  If  anyone's  got  a
fetish for designing lots of MT vehicles I could pre-release  the
unit org charts for a better understanding of the requirements.

Hmmm ... or how about a TL 13 military vehicle rodeo (MT only)?

Regards PLST





From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 08:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed Aug  7 07:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Yankee Imperium (was Dehumanization)
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D3D@USCHM203>

>Clint Rynners wrote:
>[snip large essay]

>I do believe that if the USA mobilised fully, it could impose a
>single world government, but I think the cost would be terrible.

>[snip large essay]

I'm taking this snippet completely out of context, but it got me thinking
...sometimes...I wonder...then I realize he's right, the cost would be
terrible....
On the other hand, what would MY position be in this United States of the
World? Would it be like the Terrans taking over the Ziru Sirka?
Our friends up north, across the pond, and down under (you know who you are)
will rule alongside us----no, on second thought, we'll just allow you
limited home rule.
France will be ceded to Germany (to be ruled by appointed Governor David
Hasselhoff), just because. 
Everyone else shall fall under the shadow of the Golden Arches and Mickey
Mouse.
And Switzerland will not be allowed to remain neutral this time.
As for that troublesome part of the world in the news lately...well, with
one world government, there will be no need for nuclear weapons----date and
time of America Rules fireworks display shall be posted.
Oh, and Traveller Game Sessions will be mandatory through grades 9-12.

...I really need to get to bed earlier.....



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 08:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug  7 07:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump governor
Message-ID: <b35fd8b30977.b30977b35fd8@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: MJ Dougherty <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Date: Tuesday, August 6, 2002 12:30 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Jump governor

> 
> > I don't see these in High Guard - IMTU, they don't exist.  If
> > a Jump-4 ship jumps 2 parsecs, they only use 2 parsecs worth
> > of fuel.
> >
> > What was the last canon word on this subject, if any?
> 
> Marc's last statement (and confirmed to me in a question I asked a 
> whileago) was that if you have J-3 fuel and you J-1, you only use 
> J1 of fuel up.

IIRC, the concept of jump governors was based on the following:

1.  LBB2 states that all jump fuel is used in a single jump, regardless 
of the distance of the jump (I'll have to head back to my barracks room 
later to find the page reference; it may be from an earlier printing of 
LBB2).
2.  HG2 indicates that, as per MWM's statement referenced above, you use 
fuel only for the distance actually travelled.
3.  A "jump governor" was a device that could be retrofitted to LBB2 
ships' jump drives to give them HG2 levels of fuel efficiency.

As later versions of Traveller all assume jump fuel usage to be similar 
or superior to that of HG2, jump governors are no longer addressed.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 08:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Wed Aug  7 07:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D39@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <3D51D5BF.15510.1085EB73@localhost>

On 7 Aug 2002, at 9:38, Hurrel, Brian wrote:

> Actually, these men are NOT POWs. Technically we could have them summarily
> executed, and it would be perfectly legal, though would upset alot of bleeding
> hearts. Partisans, saboteurs, spies, and other irregulars, which certainly
> includes terrorists, are not protected by either formal or informal Rules of
> War or the Geneva Convention. During WWII those captured were shot out of hand
> most of the time, and it was not considered illegal. I can't recall a single
> German officer being tried for shooting such troops (as opposed to retaliating
> against civilians for the actions of partisans, which IS illegal). Allied
> soldiers and civilians who participated in such covert and irregular actions
> were fully aware that they would not be treated as POWs if captured.

The rules changed after the 2nd WW (in response to exactly the situation 
you describe). Irregular combantants are explicitly covered now. Check 
Article 4 of the 1949 Geneva Convention on POWs (the Al Quida prisioners 
can make a pretty darn strong case under 4:2 BTW):

Article 4
A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons 
belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power 
of the enemy:
1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as 
members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.
2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, 
including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party 
to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this 
territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, 
including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following 
conditions:
(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
(c) That of carrying arms openly;
(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and 
customs of war.
3. Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a 
government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.
4. Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being 
members thereof, such as civilian members of military aircraft crews, war 
correspondents, supply contractors, members of labour units or of services 
responsible for the welfare of the armed forces, provided that they have 
received authorization from the armed forces which they accompany, who 
shall provide them for that purpose with an identity card similar to the 
annexed model.
5. Members of crews, including masters, pilots and apprentices, of the 
merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, 
who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions 
of international law.
6. Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the 
enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without 
having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they 
carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.

BTW its incumbant on the *detaining* power to disprove a potential POWs 
status. When in doubt, they have to be accorded POW status until the 
detaining power proves that they don't.

You'll also find similar articles in the 1975 Hague Conventions and the 1987 
Geneva Declaration on Terrorism.

ObTrav: Not much, how many PC mercenary groups retain a lawyer to 
keep upto date on the latest intepretations of the Rules of War.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 08:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Wed Aug  7 07:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] John Beats The Dead Horse of Imperial Rules Of War...
In-Reply-To: <200208071354.MGL02479@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D51DB9E.19603.109CDB0F@localhost>

On 7 Aug 2002, at 9:54, John T. Kwon wrote:

> The player characters in any Traveller party would often fall 
> into the category of illegal combatant.  They aren't wearing 
> a uniform, they don't belong to an official army, and aren't 
> part of an officially responsible chain of command.  In a war 
> zone, if they were caught fighting an official military 
> force, and they surrendered, 

If the relevant Interstellar Conventions follow the relevant RL ones, they 
could well be "legal combatants". You don't need to be part of an official 
chain of command, just have a some one clearly in charge (ie a unit CO). 
You don't need to be wearing a uniform, just a "fixed distinctive sign 
recognizable at a distance" (a simple armband will do). And you don't need 
to be part of the official army, just recognised by one of the parties. Heck 
you've even got protection for "Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who 
on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the 
invading forces" (depending on the circumstances). I'd imagine that the 
various Ine Givar Cadre's in FFW could well come under these catagories.

However, I think most PC would fail due to the "Conduct their operations in 
accordance with the laws and customs of war" (how many PC groups have 
you seen that would meet that criteria :*>)
 
> would they be considered 
> prisoners of war, or would they be shot out of hand after the 
> local Imperial Marine lieutenant heard his platoon sergeant's 
> report?

Assuming they actually made it into custody (ie the platoon didn't just gun 
them down and worry about the legal niceties later), I doubt they'd be shot 
out of hand. Far better for the Marine Lt to play it safe and send them up 
the line, and leave the decisions as to their combatant status to someone 
less likely to face a disciplinary board for getting it wrong.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 09:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Aug  7 08:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Landgrab of Vilis
Message-ID: <20020807150956.2D7CE4509@mo120usjc.palm.net>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:
>Mark Urbin will be doing Garda-Vilis, and we'll look into  
>putting something there.  The backdrop of the Broadsword  
>adventure, however, seems to be that Vilis doesn't have a  
>strong military presence at Garda-Vilis, and therefore they  
>hire the Broadsword and its mercenaries. 
>Later in the adventure, merchant ships containing a Vilis  
>infantry unit arrives, so this could be the 1199th. 

Jump Commandos sounds more like a well funded Imperial unit to me.
Some number cruncher will probably point out that every TL 4+ planet with a population over 500,000 can afford it's own regiment of Jump Commandos though. :-)

>It's odd.  Considering the sheer number of people on Vilis,  
>one might imagine that it would have infantrymen coming out  
>of their ears. 

This could be political function. 
IMTU, Vilis has a large urban underclass that produces violent gangs.  These gangers, when rounded up, are often given the choice of the Imperial Marines or something that would make a stint in MyMines (tm) look good.

So, if Vilis were to set up a good 'ginder' boot camp process (like the Pournelle CoDo Marines), the could churn out decent Light Infantry.
Useful for merc work as well as local defense.  

>Also, another oddity - Vilis seems to have a TL 12 ship in  
>its navy, although Vilis is not TL 12.  Is this an obsolete  
>Imperial ship purchased by Vilis?  Is this sort of thing  
>common?   

My memory says yes, according to canon.  The Imperial Navy (or perhaps even the Sector Navy) probably gave them a good price for it.

>FRONT TOWARD ENEMY 
----------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere. 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 09:27:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Aug  7 08:27:08 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <3D5174AB.19191.F0AB707@localhost>
References: <3D5174AB.19191.F0AB707@localhost>
Message-ID: <m365ymsna4.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> writes:
> 
> At the current rates of extinction, somewhere between every six
> months and two years (depending on which biologist you listen to) we
> destroy one undiscovered medicine.

We destroy one natural source of an undiscovered medicine, perhaps.
But we can synthesise just about anything these days.  My best friend
is a biochemist (well, almost--getting his PhD in a year), and if I
remember our conversations correctly, most biochemistry these days is
_not_ `oh, some old wives' tale says this is good; let's try it,' but
rather `let's see which substances we can squeeze through _this_
barrier,' i.e. it's pretty much known what most substances are going
to do; the trick is to get them through cell walls, preserve them
until they hit the right parts of the body, keep them from hitting the
wrong parts.

The company he's interning with essentially takes a patented molecule,
developes a thousand variations on it, and sells those variations back
to the original patenter, IIRC.

But perhaps there are practicing biochemists on the list who have
better knowledge than dimly-remembered conversations between
students...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it
flips over, pinning you underneath.  At night, the ice weasels
come.                                          --Matt Groening

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 10:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Aug  7 09:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
Message-ID: <F147AHJb3f9oUwnX8hD000049be@hotmail.com>

From: John Hamill <jwdh71@yahoo.com>

     "I have a chance to get a two-part GURPS:Traveller game together, 
during a weekend mini-con at the local game store, and I really need a 
couple of ships fast. Well, faster than I can do them by hand, anyway."


Mr. Hamill,

     IIRC, the BITS website has a wonderful, massive, and free PDF download 
chocked full of G:T ships.  Al TLs, all races, all functions too.  Why build 
ships when someone else has done the work for you already?  :)
     A free PDF reader can be downloaded at the Adobe webiste too.
     Google should point you to both locations.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 10:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed Aug  7 09:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15FA@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

We aim to please :)  And it was three days ago ;)  Only one shot of some stuff I'm working on for BITS, and it'll be replaced with a better shot shortly, but you get the idea ;D
Jesse


Love it! Some friendly banter between Penguin Boy and The Polygon Kid.

I'm settling down with some popcorn.

;-)  ;-)

(BTW Jesse, when your next page update going to happen? %^)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 10:17:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed Aug  7 09:17:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15F9@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Well, if Marc'll ever get back to me on it, that could happen ;)  Stay tuned...
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: David Smart [mailto:jurrubin@earthlink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 5:15 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .


Mark C. posted:
> 
> Jesse DeGraff <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> writes:
> 
> > What about artists?  ;)
> 
> Sure, why not?  Do you know any? >^)
> 
>     - Mark C.

Oh, gawd, puh-LEEZE let him on it. Maybe SJG will one
day market his graphics on T-shirts (HINT, HINT!).

Do you know how difficult it is for me to NOT
print T-shirts of his stuff for personal use?

David Smart
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 10:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed Aug  7 09:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D4D@USCHM203>

>Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance wrote:

>The rules changed after the 2nd WW (in response to exactly the situation 
>you describe). Irregular combantants are explicitly covered now. Check 
>Article 4 of the 1949 Geneva Convention on POWs (the Al Quida prisioners 
>can make a pretty darn strong case under 4:2 BTW):

I didn't know about that, though it does sound reasonable in may cases which
can be considered "gray areas".

>"(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and 
>customs of war."

Obviously actively engaged terrorists violate this requirement, but I have
to admit that it might be a tough case to prove against Al Quaida members
captured in Afghanistan. Legally prove. In reality, I know it, you know it,
and they know it.
Unless you make the entire organization responsible for 9/11 and other acts
of terrorism in an attempt to destroy the US, which is their stated aim.
They even have manuals for various acts, and explicitly condone the use of
torture for the cause (for the record, those in the US advocating the same
are idiots of the worst order). 
So IMHO, any Al Quaida are fair game for the firing squad.

Apologies for off-topic, though it does bring up some interesting threads
regarding how player characters that are not part of an official army would
be treated.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 10:22:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed Aug  7 09:22:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15FB@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

I don't have a problem with personal use, provided 1.you buy my shirts if/when I can get a deal worked out with Marc ;D and 2.you only use non-SJG images that are on my site.  Oh, and a fine-print copyright notice should be added to the picture ;)  If you don't have the graphics software to do it, let me know and I'd be happy to.  I may even render a better/bigger/uncompressed picture for you to use if ask nicely ;)
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
[mailto:david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au]
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 7:33 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .


Dear Folks -

David Smart wrote:
>Do you know how difficult it is for me to NOT
>print T-shirts of his stuff for personal use?

I'd been thinking about this for a while, too. A copyright question that I 
don't know the answer to is, "Is it 'fair use' if I put a Jesse picture on 
ONE T-Shirt for my own use?"

The alternative I thought of was asking Jesse for permission to make _two_ 
shirts, and sending him the second one as "payment". ;-)

Jesse, your thoughts?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 10:31:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Aug  7 09:31:19 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <20020807162904.96842.qmail@web20418.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com

>A Hollywood version of the change of command (and a damned good 
>performance by Humphrey Bogart) can be seen in THE CAINE MUTINY. A 

Funny that you should mention that film as I'm about to start eating
the strawberries I brought from home.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 10:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Aug  7 09:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: army usage
In-Reply-To: <159.121cd731.2a81f025@aol.com>
References: <159.121cd731.2a81f025@aol.com>
Message-ID: <p04330102b976fd8e5a14@[198.123.22.179]>

At 11:38 PM -0400 8/6/02, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
>  >>I really think you should do some research on the situation in
>  >>Afganisthan and how everything went down before blurting things out.
>  >>The main population of Afganisthan was opposed to the Taliban, which
>  >>is mainly from a tribe to the south west (I think).
>  >
>  >Tommy, you should do some research, too.  The Taliban was composed
>  >primarily of Pakistani and Saudi volunteers who called themselves
>  >"students" (of Islam).
>
>No.  To my knowledge, on that particular point he's right.  The Taliban
>stronghold is in the large and populous tribes of southern Afghanistan.

Except the Taliban had lost a lot of support even amongst the Pashtun.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 10:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Aug  7 09:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <200208071651.MGR02547@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Wait a minute.  If it's a rule of men, and not laws, it's 
entirely possible that a conquering force can arbitrarily 
dictate who gets shot without a trial just by saying so.

And the neat thing about it is that they don't have to resort 
to legal arguments, twisted vocabulary, or "kid' logic.
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 10:57:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Aug  7 09:57:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <200208071651.MGR02547@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028739389.7419.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> Wait a minute.  If it's a rule of men, and not laws, it's 
> entirely possible that a conquering force can arbitrarily 
> dictate who gets shot without a trial just by saying so.

Yeah.  That statement, to the degree it's true, is certainly one of the less
pleasant aspects of the 3I.  If you assume a real 'noblisse oblige' it can be a
positive effect, but in general it's born to be abused.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:01:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:01:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : OK, Now What?
Message-ID: <20020807165913.28112.qmail@web20417.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>

>There's been a lot of recent research into ball lightning. Maybe a
>militarily useful amount of plasma can be packaged in this way.

Fans of the Command and Conquer computer game will be familiar with
the tesla coil.  The Germans were working on a device like this
during WW2, but must not have gotten it operational.

--Glenn


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <20020807170626.8059.qmail@web20418.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>

>Actually, these men are NOT POWs. Technically we could have them 
>summarily executed, and it would be perfectly legal, though would
>upset alot of bleeding hearts. 
>
>Partisans, saboteurs, spies, and other irregulars, which certainly 
>includes terrorists, are not protected by either formal or informal
>Rules of War or the Geneva Convention.
>
>During WWII those captured were shot out of hand most of the time, 
>and it was not considered illegal. I can't recall a single German
>officer being tried for shooting such troops (as opposed to 

Yes, if you have the time and resources, it makes sense to
interrogate them first and shoot them later -- or, interrogate them
first, make some of the information public and attribute it to the
detainees, and return them to their homes, where their former
colleagues will kill them for snitching.  

Hmm ... I wonder if my current set of players (playing police
officers) will think of that approach to interrogation.  

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <3D506907.B582A8E7@mindspring.com>
References: <200208070000.MFJ02183@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <3D506907.B582A8E7@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m3wur2r423.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

alan spik <babyduck@mindspring.com> writes:
> 
> I don't think the Navy was that organized.  Read with amusement
> Doug's post about marching.  At every CoC I attended, we were given
> a time to be there.  We were expected to, and did meander our way
> over and meet the Chief who would tell us where to stand.  Usually a
> big gaggle(Pod?), then the Master Chief would come out and make
> everyone straiten up in ranks, and the show would get started about
> thirty minutes later.  I remember several people falling out.

That sounds like the Navy I know.  At the All-Academy Balls the West
Pointers (great giants of men) would stand there, stiff and formal,
when introduced.  The marine services (Navy, Coast Guards, Merchant
Marines) were much more relaxed--they're sailors, after all.  The Air
Force was an odd thing: some tried to be disciplined and failed, while
others didn't try at all.  In fact, there wasn't a year that one of
'em didn't show up in the wrong uniform--or showed up in civilian
clothes!  Pretty girls, though.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The only kind of freedom that the mob can imagine is freedom to annoy
and oppress its betters, and that is precisely the kind that we mainly
have.                                                   --H.L. Mencken

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V.I. Parviainen)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <m365ymsna4.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <3D5174AB.19191.F0AB707@localhost> <m365ymsna4.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020807171434.GA26680@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 09:26:27AM -0600, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> > At the current rates of extinction, somewhere between every six
> > months and two years (depending on which biologist you listen to) we
> > destroy one undiscovered medicine.
> 
> We destroy one natural source of an undiscovered medicine, perhaps.
> But we can synthesise just about anything these days.  

Well, yes, but wouldn't it be a bit easier to synthesise a compound if
you had it beforehand, instead of trying to duplicate the effects from
an old tale?

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:20:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:20:15 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Yankee Imperium
Message-ID: <20020807171936.65485.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>

>Clint Rynners wrote:
>>I do believe that if the USA mobilised fully, it could impose a
>>single world government, but I think the cost would be terrible.

>I'm taking this snippet completely out of context, but it got me 
>thinking ...sometimes...I wonder...then I realize he's right, the
>cost would be terrible....
>On the other hand, what would MY position be in this United States 

No one likes us 
I don't know why. 
We may not be perfect 
But heaven knows we try. 
But all around even our old friends put us down. 
Let's drop the big one and see what happens. 

We give them money 
But are they grateful? 
No they're spiteful 
And they're hateful. 
They don't respect us so let's surprise them; 
We'll drop the big one and pulverize them. 

Now Asia's crowded 
And Europe's too old. 
Africa's far too hot, 
And Canada's too cold. 
And South America stole our name. 
Let's drop the big one; there'll be no one left to blame us. 

Bridge: 
We'll save Australia; 
Don't wanna hurt no kangaroo. 
We'll build an all-American amusement park there; 
They've got surfing, too. 

Well, boom goes London, 
And boom Paris. 
More room for you 
And more room for me. 
And every city the whole world round 
Will just be another American town. 
Oh, how peaceful it'll be; 
We'll set everybody free; 
You'll have Japanese kimonos, baby, 
There'll be Italian shoes for me. 
They all hate us anyhow, 
So let's drop the big one now. 
Let's drop the big one now. 

Randy Newman, Political Science, from the album Sail Away, copied
from
http://www.leoslyrics.com/listlyrics.php?sid=%EEe%3Cy%A1P8%06

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020807171434.GA26680@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028741494.6212.ajackson@ping>

Mikko V.I. Parviainen writes:
> 
> Well, yes, but wouldn't it be a bit easier to synthesise a compound if
> you had it beforehand, instead of trying to duplicate the effects from
> an old tale?

Not exactly the right question.  The question is whether it's more efficient to
chase down old wives' tales, or to ignore the old wives' tales and attempt to
synthesize drugs based on prior understanding of what they ought to do.

The herbal movement notwithstanding, most pharmaceutical companies don't seem
to find chasing down old wives' tales, particularly extremely obscure old
wives' tales, to be really worth doing.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020807171434.GA26680@mimosa.hut.fi>
References: <3D5174AB.19191.F0AB707@localhost>
 <m365ymsna4.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
 <20020807171434.GA26680@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <m37kj2r2wf.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Mikko V.I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi> writes:
>
> > We destroy one natural source of an undiscovered medicine,
> > perhaps.  But we can synthesise just about anything these days.
> 
> Well, yes, but wouldn't it be a bit easier to synthesise a compound
> if you had it beforehand, instead of trying to duplicate the effects
> from an old tale?

But that's the point: as I understand it we've pretty well exhausted
the use of old tales and have moved on.  Not that I discount the
possibility that a remarkable new medicine could be lurking in the
rainforest; simply that I discount the probability.

As I understand it, science understand the effects of most substances:
the trick is to get them where they're needed and not where they're
not.  Which means designing a molecule which will let a drug slip
through one barrier but not another.  Which is tricky.

But, as I wrote, I could be awfully, woefully, terribly wrong.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Of course, if you're writing the code to control a cruise missile, you
may not actually need an explicit loop exit.  The loop will be
terminated automatically at the appropriate moment.
                         -Programming Perl, 3rd Ed.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <3D5050EB.9050601@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <003401c23d98$a70d8680$da29f7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020807102826.009e6ec0@mindspring.com>

At 03:42 PM 8/6/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Fred Ramen wrote:
>
>>I'm probably in a tiny minority here, but I remain unconvinced about
>>Arbellatra's strategic brilliance. Certainly her conduct of the 2FW does not
>>seem to have a personal stamp upon it the way Norris' saving strategy in the
>>5FW does. Canonical info on the war is spotty, of course, but it is
>>described as a "holding action" accompanied by commerce raids. When the
>>dreadnoughts are finally constructed, Arbellatra does not lead them on a
>>reconquest of the Marches, but merely forces a stalemate...and then promptly
>>concedes territory to the Zhodani, as well as separating several other
>>worlds from the Imperium.
>
>Probably this is because she knows she needs to a) bring an end ASAP to 
>the 2FW, and b) She needs those Dreadnaughts to end the rebellion, rather 
>than throwing them into a likely bloody fight to beat the Zhodani back.
>
>The Zho's, being in an expansionist mood at the moment, are only too happy 
>to help her achieve her goals.

I've always seen the Zhodani motivation in the Frontier Wars as keeping the 
Imperium at bay.  The 1st and 2nd wars removed the Imperium  from 
previously settled Zhodani territories and established a buffer zone.  The 
3 - 5 felt more like disruptive actions, designed to keep the Marches 
scared and on the defensive.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:55:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:55:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra (WAS: warship optimization in traveller
 CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208061330150.8694-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
References: <3.0.5.16.20020806113510.45efd91c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020807103324.009f4440@mindspring.com>

At 01:32 PM 8/6/02 -0700, you wrote:
>On Tue, 6 Aug 2002, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>
> > Good model.  I was thinking a bit of Hitler, personally.  Same kind of
> > personal magnetism.
>
>EEK!!!  But I like Arbellatra!

Hey, so do I!  But if you scrub off what he did wh\ith it, the fact remains 
that Hitler was one of the greatest orators in the 20th Century.  His 
magnetism and leadership ability took a tiny fringe party to power in ten 
years.  Picture that kind of ability in an Imperial Admiral, already known 
for her war-fighting ability.  Troops would flock to her.

> > She had a good line.  In this aspect, she's much like St. Jean d'Arc.  The
> > "Maid of Mora" driving to restore the Imperium!  She would find ready
> > converts in Deneb and Corridor. She probably played a different game with
> > the Vilani.  Promises of increased power in the court, culminating with her
> > son's marriage to a Vilani noblewoman in 679.  As she drew closer to
> > Capital, I'm sure that pretender fleets defected en masse rather than face
> > annihilation.
>
>I like Arbellatra la Pucelle much better than Arbellatra as Hitler.

Joan was more message and fire, Adolf sheer energy.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:55:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:55:46 2002
Subject: [TML] army usage
In-Reply-To: <a6.2a3d2ddd.2a81b626@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020807103810.009f6ec0@mindspring.com>

At 07:30 PM 8/6/02 -0400, you wrote:
>
>  >Seriously, from our point of view, Afghanistan was as close to a perfect
>  >situation as you can get.  All we had to do was provide air & logisitcal
>  >support, and the population in the are being attacked wasn't too thrilled
>  >with the current government.  They all aren't going to be that way.
>
>(Actually, it wasn't the population that opposed the Taliban.  it was the
>Northern Alliance.  The only reason the NA isn't pillaging the citizens like
>they were doing before the Taliban kicked them out is because they're
>preoccupied spending all that money that we bribed them with.  Sort of a
>Marshall Plan for bandit chiefs.  Seems to have worked so far.)

Really?  So all those people dancing in the streets, lining up to be 
shaved, digging up radios and TVs, kissing the feet of NA soldiers were 
mirages?

Do a little research, please.

>Well, one wouldn't think so, but as I understand it the plans for attacking
>Iraq involve a repeat of Afghanisan, using "rebels" in the north and south to
>do the actual fighting while we provide airstrikes.  Again:  "Army?  What
>Army?"  To my knowledge the army made not one twitch towards deployment
>during the Afghan battle -- either the authorities were supremely confident
>that they didn't need the army, or they had misgivings about deploying it in
>its present condition.  One wouldn't think Iraq would roll up so handily, but
>no-one thought the Taliban would roll up so fast either.  Apparently we're
>going to find out.

The 75th Regiment (Ranger), the 101st Airborne (Air Assault) and various 
Special Forces groups were all mobilized and on the ground.  Rangers were 
in Afghanistan before the main force of Taliban ceased fighting.  Troops 
from the 82nd Airborne and the 10th Mountain Divisions are still over there 
in the thick of things.

Not one twitch?  The 3rd Infantry Division (Mechanized) was put on 24-hour 
alert and ordered to start preparing for a possible deployment.  Putting 
15,000 men and all their vehicles (Bradleys, Abrams, MLRS) on warning is a 
bit more than a twitch.  I personally know several Army personnel who 
served and were shot at with great enthusiasm.

>On the other hand, if the latest briefs are any indication and we launch any
>military action against the house of Saud, then I think we're going to have
>to occupy everything from Libya to Jakarta.  That _will_ require an army, and
>I'm not sure we have one.

Sure we do!  We'll draft you.  :)

-- 

Douglas E. Berry   gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Cry "CHEEBLE!" and let slip the hamsters of war!



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:56:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:56:01 2002
Subject: [TML] OT:  December ARPC shoot
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15F3@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020807104836.009f6c50@mindspring.com>

At 04:58 PM 8/6/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Good to hear!  I'm desperately going to try to make it up again finally, 
>as the financial situation has improved a little.  Providing of course 
>that I can get a new roomate and don't have to keep paying twice the rent 
>like I am now :(  Also, I'm going to invite Erin again, and maybe I can 
>get my "girlfriend" to go too ;)

I too, shall try to make it up.  I'll be at OryCon the week before that (as 
Gaming GOH, if you can believe that, so unless you can give me rifde, no 
way I can afford to fly twice in that length of time.

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"I'm just trying to evict them. Frogs never pay."
                             - Rose Platt



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 12:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug  7 11:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <sd4ff8f8.002@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020807105540.009efb90@mindspring.com>

At 04:27 PM 8/6/02 -0400, you wrote:
>I think that because the Imperial Navy has such a long history, it
>probably has a lot of cool traditions. Anything that you threw in for
>color, like Marines in some traditional dress uniforms standing behind
>the "quarterdeck", the transfer of a baton, staff or whistle, maybe a
>reading of the ship's history...

Marines in their Dress Maroon, cutlasses raised in present arms.  By 
tradition, the junior Marine in the compliment steps forward, presents his 
cutlass hilt first to the new commander, and says "Sir!  The Marine Force 
is present and ready for you orders."  The new officer salutes the Marine, 
and gives the order "resume your stations."


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 12:17:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Aug  7 11:17:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Friday
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEFDILAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

I've tried to reach you by phone no answer.  
Please email me the information regarding when
Jonie (Joani, Joany (?)) wants to meet
and where too.

I've got to go out so email is a better bet.

________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 12:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Aug  7 11:22:03 2002
Subject: ignore RE: [TML] Friday
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEFDILAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEFEILAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

sorry wrong address, please ignore

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John-Martin
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 11:13 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Friday
Importance: High


I've tried to reach you by phone no answer.  
Please email me the information regarding when
Jonie (Joani, Joany (?)) wants to meet
and where too.

I've got to go out so email is a better bet.

________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 12:34:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Aug  7 11:34:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Three More Silly Questions
In-Reply-To: <m3wur2r423.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <3D506907.B582A8E7@mindspring.com>
 <200208070000.MFJ02183@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <3D506907.B582A8E7@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020807133436.00a777f0@minn.net>

At 11:07 AM 8/7/2002 -0600, Robert Uhl wrote:

>That sounds like the Navy I know.  At the All-Academy Balls the West
>Pointers (great giants of men) would stand there, stiff and formal,
>when introduced.  The marine services (Navy, Coast Guards, Merchant
>Marines) were much more relaxed--they're sailors, after all.  The Air
>Force was an odd thing: some tried to be disciplined and failed, while
>others didn't try at all.  In fact, there wasn't a year that one of
>'em didn't show up in the wrong uniform--or showed up in civilian
>clothes!  Pretty girls, though.

Okay.

Need some information about secondary-level military boarding schools (or
boarding schools in general).

Is there a tradition of senior students supervising (or oppressing) younger
students? If so, can you descibe the process? Off list please.

Where can I find UWP stats for the Uthe subsector? Canon if possible.


Les


==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 12:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Burns)
Date: Wed Aug  7 11:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
Message-ID: <20020807183944.5641.qmail@web10602.mail.yahoo.com>

Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 20:55:47 +1000
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>

Daniel Burns wrote:

> Unlike GT where it seems you can spot those nasty
(inflamatory reference deleted) at a few


"Argh! Don't say that word!"

Well, yeah, I was kinda playing fire there using
'that' as an example, but the flames are soooo pretty
;)


> parsecs while they are ramped up to speed,


"Sure, a decade or so later when the sensor
information gets to you.
It's poking along at light-speed, remember?   [:)] 

D'oh, must stop sleep-typing, I knew that of course
but my brain was awol :) "Would you believe... Our top
psychics are manning our sensor grid right now, and
can get a precognitive firing solution weeks or even
years before the target shows up?" ;)


Seriously Tim, thanks for being so kind to this
insomnia inebriated poster :) your courteousness is
noted.

Dan "far-trader" Burns



______________________________________________________________________ 
Post your ad for free now! http://personals.yahoo.ca

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 12:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed Aug  7 11:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D5A@USCHM203>

>John T. Kwon wrote:

>Wait a minute.  If it's a rule of men, and not laws, it's 
>entirely possible that a conquering force can arbitrarily 
>dictate who gets shot without a trial just by saying so.

>And the neat thing about it is that they don't have to resort 
>to legal arguments, twisted vocabulary, or "kid' logic.

One of the most frightening things I have ever read was a description, by a
fascist, though I can't remember if he was Italian or German, on the
absolute power of the state. I wish I had the exact quote, but it went
something like this:

"If the state says that 2 + 2 = 5, then it is so, and any citizen will tell
you it is so."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D5A@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <B976BD70.68DB2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/7/02 11:56 AM, Hurrel, Brian at brian.hurrel@eds.com wrote:

>=20
> "If the state says that 2 + 2 =3D 5, then it is so, and any citizen will te=
ll
> you it is so."

2 + 2 does equal 5, for very large values of 2.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>

Hello Folks,
   This is in response to Tim's comments regarding point defense lasers.  I 
have a few of them in all, so this is just one of many incoming 
designs.  All of them are TL 12 designs for use with GURPS 
TRAVELLER.  Please note that I was not happy with the "Logic" of having 
turret weapons who required that their "energy power plant be part of the 
main shipboard power plant.  Thus, *ALL* lasers designed by CGI include 
their own power generators.

TL 12
The SL328 is a 328.1 Mega-Joule laser designed to replace the standard 
405-Mj laser. It features an independent power supply such that a power 
loss within the ship does not mean the laser cannot fire. The SL328 comes 
with a battery pack that holds 328,100 kilowatt seconds of power along with 
a fusion generator that produces 14,578 Kilowatts. Total volume taken up by 
the SL328 is 490 cubic feet. Due to the size of this laser, it cannot be 
used in Streamlined turrets.


ROF:                            1/60
Half Damage Range:              2
Max Damage Range:               7
Accuracy:                       32
Damage:                 5d6 x 90 (2)
Spaces:                 .97
Mass in Tons:                   7.33
Cost in MCr.:                   .35
Rate of Fire Bonus:             +7


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:12:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:12:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D5C@USCHM203>

>Glenn M. Goffin wrote:

>Yes, if you have the time and resources, it makes sense to
>interrogate them first and shoot them later -- or, interrogate them
>first, make some of the information public and attribute it to the
>detainees, and return them to their homes, where their former
>colleagues will kill them for snitching

Great story from Vietnam. As usual can't remember the source:

A local village mayor was known to be a VC supporter, but no one could prove
it or do anything about it.
One day some American intelligence types, after a firefight, threw some
recovered VC bodies onto a jeep and drove into the village. They drove up to
the mayor's house.
Now, you have to picture this. The VC bodies are in full view of everyone in
the village.
As far as I know, the mayor did not speak English, and the Americans did not
speak Vietnamese.
The Americans smiled, clapped the horrified mayor on the back, and unloaded
gifts of food, a radio, bundles of cash, etcetera, and drove off.
Three guesses on how long the mayor lived after that?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807151954.024d5a80@mail.buffnet.net>

The SL47 laser system was designed mainly as a trinary weapon system in 
that it works best when used in groups of three. CDI is firmly committed to 
the idea of Accuracy through Firepower, and as such, tends to design it's 
lasers with an eye towards getting the most performance with higher rates 
of fire. The SL47 is designed mainly as a compromise between point defense 
and offense. It will affect any ship who has a DR rating of 500 or less, 
better than 50% of the time. Couple this with the SL47's RoF accuracy, and 
targets out to 30,000 miles away can be affected with a decent chance of 
success. Using a well trained gunner, targets with a displacement size of 
10 tons have been hit 4.6% of the time using a 20 minute firing duration. 
Statistics use as a baseline, a Mark IV Target program. Using a top of the 
line TL11 target computer, running a MarkXII target program, the success 
rate changed from 4.6% success rate to a 62.5% success rate. When used in a 
triple turret, using the standard MarkIV target program, the SL47 changed 
from a 4.6% success rate to a 25.9% success rate.
The SL47 uses a self contained power generator rated at 2,088 Kilowatts, 
and uses a battery rated at 125,302 Kilowatt seconds. Empty volume left 
over after being used in a Standard turret is 1.5 cubic feet in a 
streamlined turret, or 101.5 cubic feet in a non-streamlined turret.

ROF:				10/60
Half Damage Range:		1
Max Damage Range:		3
Accuracy:			30
Damage:			5d6 x 34(2)
Spaces:			.8
Mass in Tons:			3.79
Cost in MCr.:			.19
Rate of Fire Bonus:		+10


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807152459.024ebdf0@mail.buffnet.net>

TL 12
The SL828 is a super laser designed to use all three spaces in an 
unstreamlined turret. Like all of the other SL series lasers, it contains 
its own self contained fusion power plant. It uses a 2,207,448 kilowatt 
second battery, and the power plant produces 36,790 kilowatts of energy. 
Total volume used is 1,495 cubic feet, leaving 5 cubic feet of volume in a 
standard Imperial turret. Due to its higher rate of fire, along with its 
superior penetration value - the SL828 makes for a heavy hitting weapon 
system. The SL828 cannot be used in unstreamlined turrets.



ROF:                            2/60
Half Damage Range:              4
Max Damage Range:               11
Accuracy:                       33
Damage:                 5d6 x 143(2)
Spaces:                 2.99
Mass in Tons:                   20.65
Cost in MCr.:                   .98
Rate of Fire Bonus:             +8


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:19:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:19:27 2002
Subject: [TML] army usage
Message-ID: <89.1bf4851a.2a82cc79@aol.com>

In a message dated 07/08/02 00:33:50 GMT Daylight Time, Flykiller@aol.com 
writes:


On the other hand, if the latest briefs are any indication and we launch any 
military action against the house of Saud, then I think we're going to have 
to occupy everything from Libya to Jakarta.  That _will_ require an army, and 

I'm not sure we have one.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I've been really busy at work recently but I wasn't aware that the US planned 
to invade Saudi Arabia, where, the last time I looked the House of Saud were 
in charge.

The last time Saddam Hussein, leader of Iraq and head of the Ba'ath party, 
was the target.

Have things changed and has the US decided to after the single biggest source 
of  al-Qaida funding?

Charles

I addressed some cheerful chit-chat at the man opposite but was rewarded with 
grunt. I tried the man next to me but he just looked at the gentleman I had 
tried first and said "Do you know what he's talking about?" At this point I 
realised I was getting out my depth but the Dean stepped in and saved me, "Oh 
don't worry about it" he said, "They're mathematicians - we never talk to 
them."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807152728.024eb0f0@mail.buffnet.net>

TL 12
The SL948 was designed to be the hardest hitting laser that CDI could 
manufacture and still retain the design philosophy of self-contained power 
plants for the laser. While it has similar statistics to the SL828, it 
achieves an additional 7% damage at the expense of a lessor accuracy via 
firepower. This system is actually cheaper to purchase than is the SL828. 
Total volume used is 1188.5 cubic feet. When used in a streamlined turret, 
11.5 cubic feet remain unused. When used in a non-streamlined turret, 
leftover volume is 311.5 cubic feet.
The SL948 uses a battery rated at 2,527,368 kilowatt seconds, and uses a 
fusion power plant rated at 42,123 Kilowatts.



ROF:                            1/60
Half Damage Range:              4
Max Damage Range:               12
Accuracy:                       34
Damage:                 5d6 x 153(2)
Spaces:                 2.38
Mass in Tons:                   19.29
Cost in MCr.:                   .91
Rate of Fire Bonus:             +7


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807153004.00a3a9d0@mail.buffnet.net>

The SL90 system, using a 239,940 kilowatt second battery, enjoys the power 
of a 15,996 kilowatt fusion power plant. Like some of the other SL series 
lasers, this laser is designed to fit into streamlined turrets. It has a 
rate of fire that is 4 times that of a Standard 405-Mj laser, and as such, 
enjoys popularity as both as a point defense system, along with that of a 
moderate offensive system. When used in a streamlined turret, excess space 
is 35 cubic feet, or 135 in a non-streamlined turret.


ROF:                            4/60
Half Damage Range:              1
Max Damage Range:               4
Accuracy:                       31
Damage:                 5d6 x 47(2)
Spaces:                 .73
Mass in Tons:                   3.94
Cost in MCr.:                   .20
Rate of Fire Bonus:             +9


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <50.f92cdfb.2a82cde6@aol.com>

In a message dated 07/08/02 00:58:22 GMT Daylight Time, jtkwon@jtkgroup.com 
writes:


Don't forget - the outgoing commander has to do an inventory 
with the new commander, and the new commander gets to sign 
for the ship and all of the equipment in it.


Ohhh...the Vilani would love that bit.

Charles

I addressed some cheerful chit-chat at the man opposite but was rewarded with 
grunt. I tried the man next to me but he just looked at the gentleman I had 
tried first and said "Do you know what he's talking about?" At this point I 
realised I was getting out my depth but the Dean stepped in and saved me, "Oh 
don't worry about it" he said, "They're mathematicians - we never talk to 
them."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807153248.00a37b70@mail.buffnet.net>

The SL136 series laser uses 363,376 kilowatt second power storage unit, and 
is attached to a fusion power plant generating 24,225 kilowatts of power. 
Unusable in a streamlined turret, this laser is the upgraded SL90 with 
respect towards use in non-streamlined turrets. It boasts a 23% increase in 
penetration power over the SL90. Total volume used in turret is 490 cubic 
feet, leaving 10 cubic feet as empty space.
RoF 1/2 Damage Max Damage Acc Damage
range range
4/60 2 5 31 5d6 x 58(2)
Spaces Mass Cost RoF
in tons in MCr. bonus
.98 5.45 .2682 +6

ROF:                            4/60
Half Damage Range:              2
Max Damage Range:               5
Accuracy:                       31
Damage:                 5d6 x 58(2)
Spaces:                 .98
Mass in Tons:                   5.45
Cost in MCr.:                   .27
Rate of Fire Bonus:             +9


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:29:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:29:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807153547.00a32530@mail.buffnet.net>

Resent as the previous version of this I sent included the first edition 
data as opposed to second edition data (sorry)

The SL136 series laser uses 363,376 kilowatt second power storage unit, and 
is attached to a fusion power plant generating 24,225 kilowatts of power. 
Unusable in a streamlined turret, this laser is the upgraded SL90 with 
respect towards use in non-streamlined turrets. It boasts a 23% increase in 
penetration power over the SL90. Total volume used in turret is 490 cubic 
feet, leaving 10 cubic feet as empty space.


ROF:				4/60
Half Damage Range:		2
Max Damage Range:		5
Accuracy:			31
Damage:			5d6 x 58(2)
Spaces:			.98
Mass in Tons:			5.45
Cost in MCr.:			.27
Rate of Fire Bonus:		+9


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:29:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:29:30 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <20020807020627.6743406c80f7471790ae6758c061e780.in@keywest.kennett.net>
References: <20020807020627.6743406c80f7471790ae6758c061e780.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <3d51707a.2567266@post.demon.co.uk>

cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng) writes:

>Thanks.  Anybody can provide with how the Royal Navy does it?  Has the =
USN
>changed anything from the afore-explained procedure?=20

I always liked David Weber's change of command ceremonies in the Honor
Harrington books, but I don't know whether they're based on genuine
Napoleonic-era Royal Navy practice or just something DW made up...

(in brief, the new Captain is welcomed on board the ship as a visiting
senior officer, is escorted to the bridge, makes an all-hands
announcement in which (s)he reads aloud the written orders from the
Admiralty directing him/her "To proceed aboard Her Majesty's Starship
<Foo>, there to take upon yourself the duties and responsibilities of
commanding officer in the service of the Crown"; after which the new
Captain formally tells the previous (acting) commander "I assume
command".)

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807153712.00a315d0@mail.buffnet.net>

The SL23 is primarily a point defense laser. Imperial authorities have 
given CDI their coveted Excellence of Design award for this point defense 
laser. Also, the IMD has predicted that any civilian ship owner who puts in 
for a permit to install SL23's in their ship - will have an easier time of 
it. Mark Shuugaash, Sector head for the IMD of the Spinward Marches has 
informed all IMD departments that ships requesting SL23 permits are to be 
given preferential treatment with respect towards application processing 
time. After all, quoted Mark Shuugaash, how many would be pirates are going 
to use the low damaging power of the SL23 to good effect?
The SL23 uses a battery rated at 23,400 kilowatt seconds, and recharges its 
rapid fire laser by means of a 20,795 kilowatt fusion power plant. Unlike 
its faster firing cousin, the SL23a, this SL23 will fit into streamlined 
turrets. Excess space after installation in a Streamlined turret is 15 
cubic feet.


ROF:				20/60
Half Damage Range:		1
Max Damage Range:		2
Accuracy:			29
Damage:			5d6 x 24(2)
Spaces:			.77
Mass in Tons:			3.43
Cost in MCr.:			.17
Rate of Fire Bonus:		+12


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:34:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:34:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
Message-ID: <3D5175D5.D8DEC9AF@ameritech.net>

Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 09:10:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>

> David Shayne writes:
>
>> Standard densities. With Earth = 1. Doesn't look so horibly wrong 
>> now does it? 
>
> Ok, that's not as bad.  

Let me take a moment here to appologize for the tone of theat last post.
I really should have performed a snarkectomy on it before I sent it out.

Sorry,

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807154015.00a37d60@mail.buffnet.net>

Like the SL23, the SL23a is designed as a point defense system. Because 
this system can only be used in unstreamlined turrets, CDI has been able to 
increase its firepower abilities from that of 1 shot per minute, to 1 shot 
per 40 seconds. Consequently, this laser is better suited for tackling the 
tough job of point defense against incoming missiles than its cousin, the 
SL23.
The SL23a still uses the 62,384 kilowatt second battery that the SL23 uses, 
but instead, uses a 31,192 kilowatt fusion power plant.


ROF:				1.33
Half Damage Range:		1
Max Damage Range:		2
Accuracy:			29
Damage:			5d6 x 24(2)
Spaces:			1
Mass in Tons:			4.47
Cost in MCr.:			.23
Rate of Fire Bonus:		+13


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 14:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Aug  7 13:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
References: <3D5174AB.19191.F0AB707@localhost> <m365ymsna4.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> <20020807171434.GA26680@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <3D517EAA.9080504@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Mikko V.I. Parviainen wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 09:26:27AM -0600, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> 
>>>At the current rates of extinction, somewhere between every six
>>>months and two years (depending on which biologist you listen to) we
>>>destroy one undiscovered medicine.
>>
>>We destroy one natural source of an undiscovered medicine, perhaps.
>>But we can synthesise just about anything these days.  
> 
> 
> Well, yes, but wouldn't it be a bit easier to synthesise a compound if
> you had it beforehand, instead of trying to duplicate the effects from
> an old tale?
> 

Also, anyone who thinks 'we can synthesize just about anything these 
days' is not a chemist or biochemist.

Trsut me, some of the natural compounds we're finding that have 
medicinal qualities are utter whirling b*tches to synthesize in any 
quantity, *let alone* synthesize on industrial scales economically.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 14:11:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Aug  7 13:11:28 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
References: <ML-2.3.1028741494.6212.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3D517A60.60801@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Mikko V.I. Parviainen writes:
> 
>>Well, yes, but wouldn't it be a bit easier to synthesise a compound if
>>you had it beforehand, instead of trying to duplicate the effects from
>>an old tale?
> 
> 
> Not exactly the right question.  The question is whether it's more efficient to
> chase down old wives' tales, or to ignore the old wives' tales and attempt to
> synthesize drugs based on prior understanding of what they ought to do.
> 
> The herbal movement notwithstanding, most pharmaceutical companies don't seem
> to find chasing down old wives' tales, particularly extremely obscure old
> wives' tales, to be really worth doing.


ROFL!!!! We have one researcher here at the College who has a 
multimillion dollar grant, with support from NIH and a bunch of 
Pharmaceutical companies looking into the medicinal properties of arid 
lands plants.

The pharmaceutical companies are funding this research to the tunes of 
*billions* of dollars a year.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs





From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 14:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Wed Aug  7 13:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <001a01c23e54$52a53950$0b01a8c0@duck>

On Behalf Of Hal
> Hello Folks,
>    This is in response to Tim's comments regarding point defense lasers.
I
> have a few of them in all, so this is just one of many incoming
> designs.  All of them are TL 12 designs for use with GURPS
> TRAVELLER.  Please note that I was not happy with the "Logic" of having
> turret weapons who required that their "energy power plant be part of the
> main shipboard power plant.  Thus, *ALL* lasers designed by CGI include
> their own power generators.

I hope you don't mind, but this brings up a couple of questions from a GT
neophyte.  Please understand that I only have GT, not VE2 or GS3.

- What are "streamlined" and "unstreamlines" turrets?  In the GT rules
  there are just "turrets".  What is the difference?

- Do you have any TL 10 designs.  I am curious as the the relative use
  of such weapons.

Finally, I also have an unrelated questions I hope you could answer:

- Are standard GT TL10 lasers 250MJ or 360MJ?  The rules are contradictory
  on the issue.

Thanks.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 14:55:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Wed Aug  7 13:55:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re: army usage
In-Reply-To: <20020807002817.99096.qmail@web20417.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0208072247420.363897-100000@svati>

On Tue, 6 Aug 2002, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:

>Tommy, you should do some research, too.  The Taliban was composed
>primarily of Pakistani and Saudi volunteers who called themselves
>"students" (of Islam).  Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, with the knowledge
>if not the support of the United States government, formed and
>trained the Taliban and sent them to end the civil war in
>Afghanistan, which they did.  The peace they imposed was in many ways
>worse than the war.

This is true and not contrary to what I said at all. I just pointed out
that the Taliban was almost universially hated and feared inside of
Afghanistan, and that they had control over almost all of the land, except
for the small area controled by the NA. And the NA was loosing quickly.

My point was like yours that the Americans did a good job by ousting the
Taliban and that the Northern Alliance didn't have to be bribed to let
the US help them. They were in enough trouble to cheer loudly when the
US did help.

No controversy here.

ObTrav: How does the citizens of a world view interference into their
local affairs by the Imperium? I guess that it is takes a wide range
of sentiments, but that most worlds really want to settle their issues
wiyhout the IMperium medeling. Even if it means a nuclear war.

Tommy Grav
-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 14:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dominic Mooney)
Date: Wed Aug  7 13:57:03 2002
Subject: BITS - Sneak Preview was  RE: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <AC8B99B8-AA47-11D6-8866-0003930B3ACE@cybergoths.u-net.com>

> "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

> At 9:43 AM -0700 8/6/02, DeGraff, Jesse wrote:
> What about artists?  ;)
> Jesse
> Do you have any experience?  :-)


<Delurk>

If you're interested, look at Jesse's work at

http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/ghalalk_and_pf_sloan.
htm

which shows some of the models he's been building for the forthcoming BITS 
starship miniatures combat game 'Power Projection'.

By forthcoming, we are hoping for the lite rules (escorts and destroyers - 
non capital ships) at GenCon UK and the full rules before Christmas.

Dom
BITS Webmaster...

"Power Projection - 'It's all about going to other people's planets and 
making *them* do what *we* want".

--------dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia,
there's still the notion that the future is
something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." Niven/Pournelle/Flynn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 15:20:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Aug  7 14:20:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Interference
Message-ID: <200208072119.MGZ05733@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

In the Broadsword adventure, there seems to be little enough 
Imperial interference on Garda-Vilis, but more than enough 
Sword World and Zhodani interefence.

Then again, this is a border area, and a backwater border 
area at that.

The local freedom fighters seem to be pro-Imperial - the 
Tanoose Freedom League has killed Ine Givar who tried to 
recruit them.  It's almost as if the people on Garda-Vilis 
think they would get a better shake with direct Imperial 
interference than by having Vilis rule them from afar.

Then again, the Imperium doesn't seem to be in the game of 
nation building, or freedom fighting, or dispensing democracy 
at the drop of a hat.  They seem to be more interested in 
maintaining a Naval Base at Frenzie.

Gee, are there any parallels between Frenzie and Diego Garcia?
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 15:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Aug  7 14:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020807102826.009e6ec0@mindspring.com>
References: <3D5050EB.9050601@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3D523A3D.13247.2FE3DA@localhost>

On 7 Aug 2002 at 10:30, Douglas Berry wrote:

> I've always seen the Zhodani motivation in the Frontier Wars as keeping the 
> Imperium at bay.  The 1st and 2nd wars removed the Imperium  from 
> previously settled Zhodani territories and established a buffer zone.  The 
> 3 - 5 felt more like disruptive actions, designed to keep the Marches 
> scared and on the defensive.

I'm certain that this is the case, as given the poor Imperial showing 
up until the FFW if the Zho's had really wanted to come in and take the 
SM they'd probably not have been stopped short of Corridor.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 15:48:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 14:48:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <001a01c23e54$52a53950$0b01a8c0@duck>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807172615.02726970@mail.buffnet.net>

Hello Mike,


>I hope you don't mind, but this brings up a couple of questions from a GT
>neophyte.  Please understand that I only have GT, not VE2 or GS3.
>
>- What are "streamlined" and "unstreamlines" turrets?  In the GT rules
>   there are just "turrets".  What is the difference?

At the time I wrote all this, GURPS TRAVELLER was just recently released 
and there was nothing else printed.  I had a few issues with what had been 
written overall.  Since then, I've resolved those issues with respect 
towards streamlined and un-streamlined vessels.  In short?  Ignore the 
concept of Streamlined versus Un-streamlined turrets ;)



>- Do you have any TL 10 designs.  I am curious as the the relative use
>   of such weapons.

I had not worked on any TL10 designs.  At the time, I had intended to, but 
I never got around to it.


>Finally, I also have an unrelated questions I hope you could answer:
>
>- Are standard GT TL10 lasers 250MJ or 360MJ?  The rules are contradictory
>   on the issue.

Interesting ;)

I will have to take the time out and try to figure out which it is supposed 
to be.  As it stands now, I have to take the time to figure out how I set 
up my BEAM WEAPONS TL12 spread sheet so I can reproduce all the date I 
created for my web site lo those many years back.  When did Traveller first 
come out in GURPS anyhow, 1998?  '99?  Hmmmm.

For what it is worth?  I've noted that the rates of fire for lasers are 
limited by the fact the energy that goes into charging the "batteries" or 
capacitors are less than what they could be.  Someone who rerouts ship's 
manuever drive energy towards lasers can increase the rate of fire to 
extremely high rates of fire.

                   Hal


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 16:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dooley, Ryan)
Date: Wed Aug  7 15:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Probably a FAQ, but...
Message-ID: <C0B11D0413A966428A8FAAED4B198CA46AC8BE@col-mailnode03.col.missouri.edu>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C23E4B.90149D70
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Howdy,

=20

I don't know if this has been discussed to death or not yet but since
I've not seen traffic on the topic as of late, anybody know the word on
T5?

=20

Cheers,

            Ryan


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	charset="us-ascii"
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charset=3Dus-ascii">


<meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 10 (filtered)">

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<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Howdy,</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I don&#8217;t know if this has been discussed to =
death or
not yet but since I&#8217;ve not seen traffic on the topic as of late, =
anybody
know the word on T5?</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Cheers,</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp; Ryan</span></font></p>

</div>

</body>

</html>
=00
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 16:08:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug  7 15:08:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Spam Spam Spam Spam...
Message-ID: <11b.147a05c3.2a82e8cc@cs.com>

--part1_11b.147a05c3.2a82e8cc_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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In a message dated 8/7/02 3:53:47 AM Central Daylight Time, 
jenry023@student.liu.se writes:


> Come to think of it, most products that come from special places are not 
> considered luxuries there, but they probably are at other locations.
> 
> Groat Musk Perfume would be a nasty thing to hit the PCs with...  ;-)
> 
> * Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
> 

More like, "Groat Musk Perfume would be a nasty thing to suffer a container 
breach while in the PC's cargo hold..." Especially in a S-class Scout/Courier.

Simon Jester
-------------------
Vikings? There ain't no vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was 
burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway. That's 
our story and we're sticking to it.



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Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 8/7/02 3:53:47 AM Central Daylight Time, jenry023@student.liu.se writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Come to think of it, most products that come from special places are not considered luxuries there, but they probably are at other locations.
<BR>
<BR>Groat Musk Perfume would be a nasty thing to hit the PCs with... &nbsp;;-)
<BR>
<BR>* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>More like, "Groat Musk Perfume would be a nasty thing to suffer a container breach while in the PC's cargo hold..." Especially in a S-class Scout/Courier.
<BR>
<BR>Simon Jester
<BR>-------------------
<BR>Vikings? There ain't no vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway. That's our story and we're sticking to it.
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>

--part1_11b.147a05c3.2a82e8cc_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 16:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Wed Aug  7 15:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807172615.02726970@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <001b01c23e5e$c9983a80$0b01a8c0@duck>

On Behalf Of Hal
> >- Do you have any TL 10 designs.  I am curious as the the relative use
> >   of such weapons.
>
> I had not worked on any TL10 designs.  At the time, I had intended to, but
> I never got around to it.

The reason I ask is that I have lately gotten into the kick of just ignoring
GTL12/TTL15 and seeing what I can get at "medium" TLs like GTL10/TTL12.  I
do wish there were GTL9 modules published somewhere.  I *really* want to be
able to make some GTL9 ships.

> >Finally, I also have an unrelated questions I hope you could answer:
> >
> >- Are standard GT TL10 lasers 250MJ or 360MJ?  The rules are
contradictory
> >   on the issue.
>
> Interesting ;)

>From what I can see (I own GT, BtC and AR1) GT 1e used 360MJ for TL10, but
it was changed to 250MJ in GT 2e.  Unfortunately all modules made pre-2e
(like AR1) still refer to 360MJ, and even some things in GT 2e still refer
to 360MJ.

I do admit I don't even know for sure that they made the change.  I am
just assuming it from the contradictory references.  That is why I was
asking about the TL10 lasers you played with.  Assuming I am correct, I
guess someone figured out that a 360MJ laser at TL10 ended up being too
big, so it was adjusted down.

Anyway, thanks for the answers.  I do appreciate it.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 16:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Aug  7 15:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <001b01c23e5e$c9983a80$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028758470.4086.ajackson@ping>

Mike West writes:
> I do admit I don't even know for sure that they made the change.  I am
> just assuming it from the contradictory references.

Mostly, the change is because it was determined that the 360MJ laser takes up
more than 500 cf.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 16:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Aug  7 15:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Probably a FAQ, but...
In-Reply-To: <C0B11D0413A966428A8FAAED4B198CA46AC8BE@col-mailnode03.col.missouri.edu>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028758541.2749.ajackson@ping>

Dooley, Ryan writes:
> 
> I don't know if this has been discussed to death or not yet but since
> I've not seen traffic on the topic as of late, anybody know the word on
> T5?

I don't think there's been official word, but I wouldn't hold your breath.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 16:17:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug  7 15:17:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
In-Reply-To: <20020807183944.5641.qmail@web10602.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020807183944.5641.qmail@web10602.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020808081638.A491@freeman.little-possums.net>

Daniel Burns wrote:
> "Would you believe... Our top psychics are manning our sensor grid
> right now, and can get a precognitive firing solution weeks or even
> years before the target shows up?" ;)

Of course I do.  That's just one of many ways in which the Consulate
protects its proles :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 16:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug  7 15:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807154015.00a37d60@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net> <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com> <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com> <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net> <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net> <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20020807154015.00a37d60@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020808082655.B491@freeman.little-possums.net>

Hal wrote:
> The SL23a still uses the 62,384 kilowatt second battery that the SL23 uses, 
> but instead, uses a 31,192 kilowatt fusion power plant.

Just a question; how do you get a RoF of 1.33 when the pwoer plant
takes 2 seconds to recharge the energy banks?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 16:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug  7 15:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807172615.02726970@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net> <001a01c23e54$52a53950$0b01a8c0@duck> <5.0.2.1.2.20020807172615.02726970@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020808085800.C491@freeman.little-possums.net>

Hal wrote:
> For what it is worth?  I've noted that the rates of fire for lasers are 
> limited by the fact the energy that goes into charging the "batteries" or 
> capacitors are less than what they could be.

This is a problem with all G:Traveller modular designs.  In normal
space, you can always use the power allocated in design to maintaining
the jump field.  This is at least 200 kW/dton.


>  Someone who rerouts ship's manuever drive energy towards lasers can
> increase the rate of fire to extremely high rates of fire.

If the average density of starships is about 4 tonnes per dton, then
each gee of thrust reduction diverts 400 kW/dton to other systems.
This will benefit a lightly-armed ship.  A heavily armed ship will
hardly notice, since such a ship already has a far higher power
requirement for weapons than for maneuver drives.

Now, diverting power from bay weapons or spinal mounts to turrets is
quite a different story.  That might be a good idea in a point-defense
situation.  It might raise the RoF by a factor of thirty in extreme
cases, for a +5 RoF bonus.  It's a pity that RoF doesn't actually do
much :/


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 17:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 16:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <20020808082655.B491@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807154015.00a37d60@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020807154015.00a37d60@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807191227.027257b0@mail.buffnet.net>

At 08:26 AM 08/08/2002 +1000, you wrote:
>Hal wrote:
> > The SL23a still uses the 62,384 kilowatt second battery that the SL23 
> uses,
> > but instead, uses a 31,192 kilowatt fusion power plant.
>
>Just a question; how do you get a RoF of 1.33 when the pwoer plant
>takes 2 seconds to recharge the energy banks?

I goofed - I read it wrong and was in a hurry to transscribe the 
information into email from my old HTML...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 17:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Aug  7 16:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <OFDEC7001F.B4AA8375-ON42256C0E.001D1133@ko.com>
References: <OFDEC7001F.B4AA8375-ON42256C0E.001D1133@ko.com>
Message-ID: <p04330109b977629d272b@[198.123.22.179]>

>Sufficiently advanced technology makes life on an airless
>rockball possible - why would such a species need to preserve
>its wildlife?

Well, if we assume that the airless rockball is totally self 
suficient (not just sufficient over a timescale of week or months) I 
see two reasons...

1) Economics, a natural ecosystem maintains itself (and hence is a 
lot cheaper).
2) Comfort, just because the rockball is livable, doesn't mean it 
produces everything people would want.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 19:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Aug  7 18:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] System Gen Help
In-Reply-To: <c9.261a11c4.2a7d38e2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20807.181758.5x2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> If a captured planet is in a gas giant's orbit though then it should
> become a moon or impact the gas giant eventually, or perhaps
> eventually be thrown out of orbit away from or towards the star.

It could wind up in a stable relationship with the GG. 

If it's sufficiently smaller than the GG (1/80th?) it could be stable
at one of the Trojan points.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 19:26:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Aug  7 18:26:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
In-Reply-To: <200208051642.JAA31293@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <20807.182739.9w7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>Lowest GG density = .1
>>Average GG density ~= .21
>>Highest GG density = .3
>
> Assuming that's g/cc, that's horribly wrong. Saturn has a density of 0.69
> and is probably near the low end of possible densities; all of the other
> gas giants have densities between 1 and 2.  A large gas giant, at 4x
> jupiter mass and about the same diameter, would be as dense as the earth.

Densities are likely in units such the Earth has a density of 1.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 19:44:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Aug  7 18:44:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Briefing Depicted Saudis as Enemies (washingtonpost.com)
In-Reply-To: <3D51CB90.53932375@minn.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020807204455.00a7f6f0@minn.net>


Found this article via the www.FrontPageMag.com website:

 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47913-2002Aug5.html

Obtrav: What if an allied state in the Vargr Extents acts against Imperial
interests?

(Hmmm...there's an idea for my serial space opera project...)


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 19:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Hamill)
Date: Wed Aug  7 18:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] GTS-the progrem
In-Reply-To: <20020807183403.21704.67892.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020808015159.46560.qmail@web21505.mail.yahoo.com>


> 
> Message: 1
> From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] GTS-the program
> Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 16:10:33 +0000
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> From: John Hamill <jwdh71@yahoo.com>
> 
>      "I have a chance to get a two-part
> GURPS:Traveller game together, 
> during a weekend mini-con at the local game store,
> and I really need a 
> couple of ships fast. Well, faster than I can do
> them by hand, anyway."
> 
> 
> Mr. Hamill,
> 
>      IIRC, the BITS website has a wonderful,
> massive, and free PDF download 
> chocked full of G:T ships.  Al TLs, all races, all
> functions too.  Why build 
> ships when someone else has done the work for you
> already?  :)
>      A free PDF reader can be downloaded at the
> Adobe webiste too.
>      Google should point you to both locations.
> 
> 
>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen

A great idea sir, but unfortunately just any old ships
won't do. See I'm running an old adventure from MT
days, in a non-canon universe, using GURPS: Traveller
(as that's what I have on hand, not wanting to get my
old LBB set out of storage and not having mt MT books
anymore. I need to redesign for G:T a 10,000 dton,
United States of America class frontier patrol
cruiser, the Republica Federal de Mexico, it's small
craft and fighters, as well as the Terran
Confederation Marines landers. As you can tell, it
will be an active duty adventure, and the specific
adventure will be mostly slated for ground combat,
however, there is some chance of space action, and I
want to be prepared for it. Thanks for the heads up
though, I will be looking for that at the nearest
opportunity.

Interestingly, this campaign came to mind when the
list was discussing rules changes. We used a few
(including the no-kill during char gen), but the
biggest one was to fiddle with the fuel for jumps.
When I started playing the original LBB's, many of my
fellow players were either ex-military, current
college students, or both. several of the motre
scientific ones complained about the extreme amounts
of fuel used for jump, and pointed out that the ship
would melt if it tried to fuse even a portion of that
amount before or during a jump. The GM at the time
agreed with him, and didn't like the fuel for jump
situation anyway (he was trying to simulate a universe
from a novel, and didn't use the OTU), so he simply
dispensed with fuel requirements for the jump drive.
All you had to do was have a power plant the same size
or larger than your jump drive, and thats all. It
definitely chaqnged the game from what it was designed
as, and made tactics for intersteller war completely
different than in the normal Traveller universe. OTOH,
you could actually see freighters, especially small
ones, begin to make a profit, even from regular cargo.
Others in the group made up new combat rules, both for
space and ground combat, and we used those instead. I
gamed with them for several years, but moved away
eventually. 
But I still messed around with the rules, and when I
had another group of victi...er, players, I started a
non-canon game with them. I set it in a future Terran
Confederation, sort of a ramped up UN in space, and
the best campaign we had was an active duty campaign,
aboard the above frontier patrol cruiser. I did use
jump fuel, but cut the requirement to a tenth of
canon. However I still designed ships the book way, so
your average ship, at least the military and scout
ships, had a 10 jump fuel reserve. So your type S
scout/courier could do 10 jump 2's before needing to
be refueled. Or for civilian vessels, they could carry
less fuel and add cargo space. It worked out well for
this campaign, since they were supposed to patrol the
frontier of the Confederation, and also protect and
aid any colonies in their area, it allowed for a much
greater range for their ship. It also allowed me to
effectively cut the PC's off from higher authority,
and made them responsible for whatever happened on
their watch. It was great watching them try to come up
with ways to explain their actions to command (in the
reports which I made them write up). A great campaign
it was.
So I'm going to try a simple one-shot (well, actually
a two part one-shot) to see if I can't get my local
group into our Great Game, we'll see how it goes.

John
jwdh71@yahoo.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 19:53:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mosaic Tapestry)
Date: Wed Aug  7 18:53:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Probably a FAQ, but...
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1028758541.2749.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <001001c23e7e$2acd8a70$2f7de40c@loki>

I'd enquire here:

http://www.travellerrpg.com/cgi-bin/Trav/CotI/Discuss/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb
=forum;f=11


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 22:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug  7 21:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] John Beats The Dead Horse of Imperial Rules Of War...
Message-ID: <OFB4C576D0.DD4913B9-ONCA256C0F.00177D95@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

John wrote:
>The player characters in any Traveller party would often fall 
>into the category of illegal combatant.  They aren't wearing 
>a uniform, they don't belong to an official army, and aren't 
>part of an officially responsible chain of command.  In a war 
>zone, if they were caught fighting an official military 
>force, and they surrendered, would they be considered 
>prisoners of war, or would they be shot out of hand after the 
>local Imperial Marine lieutenant heard his platoon sergeant's 
>report?

I believe that mercenaries, available and used in the standard way that 
Trav says they are used, would only be possible under the canonical "Rules 
of War" scheme. That is, with merc troops being recognised as legitimate 
forces, with repatriation bonds, etc. Exactly what David Drake writes 
about - I'm sure he must have cribbed a bit from Traveller.

In this situation, the PCs will be OK as long as they are recognised as 
being part of a legitimate merc unit. One of the fun things I forced my 
players to do was to apply for a company-sized merc licence...

Have a look under Tavonni Specialties ==> Soldiers of Fortune ==> Adifux Inc LIC Pty Ltd.  ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 22:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug  7 21:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: MT Vehicles
Message-ID: <OFC8A19485.1B58CE65-ONCA256C0F.001962BE@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Peter said:
>I'm in the process of detailing out the armed forces  of  Efate's
>Regular Army for a Landgrab.

Try browsing the Incredible Dean Files[TM]:
        http://www.solstation.com/core/dean_files_en.htm

Of the TL 13 entries, roughly 20 out of 50 are vehicles. Then you can grab 
some at lower TL's to fill in for the logistics & civvies.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 22:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Aug  7 21:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] John Beats The Dead Horse of Imperial Rules Of War...
In-Reply-To: <OFB4C576D0.DD4913B9-ONCA256C0F.00177D95@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020807235157.00a78ca0@minn.net>

At 02:27 PM 8/8/2002 +1000, david.d.jaques-watson wrote:

>I believe that mercenaries, available and used in the standard way that 
>Trav says they are used, would only be possible under the canonical "Rules 
>of War" scheme. That is, with merc troops being recognised as legitimate 
>forces, with repatriation bonds, etc. Exactly what David Drake writes 
>about - I'm sure he must have cribbed a bit from Traveller.

I wouldn't think so. If I recall correctly, Hammer's Slammers was
originally patched together from a series of shorter stories published in
ANALOG before the publication of the LBB's.

I should think that Drake's work was an influence on Book 4 and subsequent
works on mercenary ops in CT.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 23:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug  7 22:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Interference
Message-ID: <OF161D1D12.25FFD37E-ONCA256C0F.001C7739@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

John wrote:
>The local freedom fighters seem to be pro-Imperial - the 
>Tanoose Freedom League has killed Ine Givar who tried to 
>recruit them.  It's almost as if the people on Garda-Vilis 
>think they would get a better shake with direct Imperial 
>interference than by having Vilis rule them from afar.

FWIW, in my campaign I put the "Aces & Eights" scenario on G-V. Everything 
seems to fit:
        - if Vilis was originally populated by Sword Worlders, then hiring 
a S-W merc outfit is not out of the question;
        - Colonel Semyon (from A&E) leads a Sword Worlder merc unit - 
hmmm;
        - as John says, the rebels appear to be pro-Imperial;
        - the guy who hid the money is an ex-Imperial intel officer, 
currently supporting the "rebels", another hmmm.

2 + 2 = 5? Works for me!  ;-)  ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 00:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug  7 23:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] sound of rolling dice
Message-ID: <103.1984cd5e.2a8363c3@aol.com>

 >> Traveller Adventure: Comet Busters
 >> 
 >> For referees only.  If you intend to play this adventure, quit reading 
now 
 >> and direct your game referee to this page. 
 >
 >*sound of harddrive saving file*

Yes, but will there be the sound of rolling dice?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 01:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 00:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] army usage
Message-ID: <24.29a1836f.2a837238@aol.com>

 >>On the other hand, if the latest briefs are any indication and we launch 
any 
 >>military action against the house of Saud, then I think we're going to 
have 
 >>to occupy everything from Libya to Jakarta.  That _will_ require an army, 
and 
 >>I'm not sure we have one.
 >
 >I've been really busy at work recently but I wasn't aware that the US 
planned 
 >to invade Saudi Arabia, where, the last time I looked the House of Saud 
were 
 >in charge.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A50022-2002Aug6.html

 >Have things changed and has the US decided to after the single biggest 
source 
 >of  al-Qaida funding?

You mean americans filling up their SUV gas tanks?  A far tougher opponent 
than Saddam.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 01:19:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 00:19:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re: army usage
Message-ID: <cf.1b176136.2a8374ff@aol.com>

 >My point was like yours that the Americans did a good job by ousting the
 >Taliban and that the Northern Alliance didn't have to be bribed to let
 >the US help them.

I guess you misunderstood me.  I didn't say they had to be bribed to let the 
US help them.  I said that previously they were a bunch of looters and 
bandits, but that now they seemed to be too busy spending lots of aid money 
to bother with looting.  The bribe was to keep them from looting and to leave 
the common people alone, not to fight.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 01:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Thu Aug  8 00:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <3D517A60.60801@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3D52C5CC.22171.37657C@localhost>

On 7 Aug 2002, at 12:52, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Anthony Jackson wrote:

> > The herbal movement notwithstanding, most pharmaceutical companies don't
> > seem to find chasing down old wives' tales, particularly extremely obscure
> > old wives' tales, to be really worth doing.

> ROFL!!!! We have one researcher here at the College who has a 
> multimillion dollar grant, with support from NIH and a bunch of 
> Pharmaceutical companies looking into the medicinal properties of arid 
> lands plants.

Even ignoring the problems of synthesing a complex pharmaceutical, it 
really helps when you have a ready supply of complex chemicals on hand 
for testing.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 02:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 01:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <e4e645e4c45c.e4c45ce4e645@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
Date: Wednesday, August 7, 2002 2:57 am
Subject: Re: [TML] re:  Silly Question

> 
> Jeff D. Greenly" says
> <snip naval change of command>
> 
> Don't forget - the outgoing commander has to do an inventory 
> with the new commander, and the new commander gets to sign 
> for the ship and all of the equipment in it.

Anybody know if a _Nimitz_-class CVN has a National Stock Number? ;-)

As the incoming captain signs a one-page hand receipt for "Carrier, 
Aircraft, Nuclear-Powered, w/ancillary equipment"...then spends the next 
week signing all the annexes to the hand receipt....

ObTrav:  GT:GF mentions the 3I's equivalent to NSNs; do major warship 
classes have such numbers?

<<snip>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 02:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Aug  8 01:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Spam Spam Spam Spam...
In-Reply-To: <11b.147a05c3.2a82e8cc@cs.com>
References: <11b.147a05c3.2a82e8cc@cs.com>
Message-ID: <20020808101200.30a20555.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Wed, 07 Aug 2002 17:19:08 -0400 (EDT)
Damage169@cs.com wrote:

> More like, "Groat Musk Perfume would be a nasty thing to suffer a container 
> breach while in the PC's cargo hold..." Especially in a S-class Scout/Courier.

Yes, that would be a very nasty problem. Very subtle. How would the PCs notice that the cargo container had been damaged?

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 02:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Aug  8 01:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] sound of rolling dice
In-Reply-To: <103.1984cd5e.2a8363c3@aol.com>
References: <103.1984cd5e.2a8363c3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020808101438.23274eb3.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Thu, 08 Aug 2002 02:03:47 -0400 (EDT)
Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> Yes, but will there be the sound of rolling dice?

Tough question. Eventually yes, but at the moment I don't run any Traveller campaign (Rolemaster, Vampire, and Torg fill my RPG time). I am working on creating a Traveller campaign in which your adventure would fit nicely, though... will run it as soon as one of the other campaigns end...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 02:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 01:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
Message-ID: <e53186e50939.e50939e53186@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: JFZeigler@aol.com
Date: Wednesday, August 7, 2002 4:23 am
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Silly Question

> >Naval JAG: So what happened to the three 15" guns that used to in 
> the aft 
> >turret?
> >Captain: What 15" guns? This is a destroyer!
> >Naval JAG: The ones in the property book you signed for when you 
> took 
> >command. I'm afraid we can't allow you to retire until those are 
> paid for . 
> . 
> 
> Heh. Anyone remember the classic SF story "Allamagoosa?"

Was that the one with the ship's "offog"?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 03:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Thu Aug  8 02:27:03 2002
Subject: MT Vehicles (was: Re: [TML] Landgrab )
In-Reply-To: <000401c23e1b$85fa2ec0$5600a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPOEENEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

I have a number of MT vehicles and ships on my site, enough to fully equip a
TL13 marined regiment. Find them at www.users.bigpond.com/Skaran if you are
interested.

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Peter L.S. Trevor
Sent: Wednesday, 7 August 2002 7:16 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: MT Vehicles (was: Re: [TML] Landgrab )


Hyphen wrote:
> Peter asked:
> >Does anyone have (or know of) some software  or  spreadsheet  for
> >creating ground vehicles using MT rules?  I need to create  about
> >a dozen different military vehicles for my Efate landgrab.
>
> I created one, but it is a little basic and assumes you have the
> rules to plug the numbers in. (I did it years ago when I was
> worried about copyright and didn't know how to write a database
> spreadsheet. I still don't... ;-)
>
> I downloaded one from the 'net... Ships III from Ace and The Dog's
> website. However, I can't remember if it covers vehicles. It's a
> bit flaky and can crash unexpectedly, so save often!
>         http://www.ace-dog.com/downloads/downloads.htm
>
> Would pulling a couple of designs from 101 Vehicles help? What are
> you after, specifically?

Ships III doesn't do vehicles (according to its manual there  are
no ground vehicle drives, etc).  I have been trying  to  use  the
DOS program for vehicles from the same site but it seems to  have
major flaws (either that or my own math  is  way  off).  And  101
Vehicles doesn't have the range I need.

I'm in the process of detailing out the armed forces  of  Efate's
Regular Army for a Landgrab.  As this is  a  place  with  a  high
chance of merc adventures (think  high-tech  'Nam  in  Traveller)
this detail seems more important than with  other  Landgrabs.  So
far I have a need for an MBT, an air  defence  AFV,  3  different
artillery AFVs, assorted AFVs for EW/ND/command/commo, a recovery
vehicle, a field repair vehicle, a G-Carrier with 3 variants,  an
APC with 5 variants, and a fast recon vehicle (possibly a  Trasea
grav bike for the last).  Before I'm done  I'll  probably  double
this list, and thats before I get to the COACC  aerospace  units,
the rear  echelon  support  vehicles,  or  the  typical  civilian
vehicles used by the militia on both sides!  If  anyone's  got  a
fetish for designing lots of MT vehicles I could pre-release  the
unit org charts for a better understanding of the requirements.

Hmmm ... or how about a TL 13 military vehicle rodeo (MT only)?

Regards PLST




_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 03:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 02:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] animals
Message-ID: <17b.c949cc4.2a839732@aol.com>

Hummingbee

    Similar to a hummingbird though larger.  Small fast and agile.  
    Brilliant colors and plumage that varies from hummingbee 
    to hummingbee.  Omnivorous -- fairly strong beak with 
    serrated edges.  Eats fruit, insects, and small animals.  
    Large and strong stinger hidden in butt, coated with a 
    gel that causes excruciating pain (in humans).  Lone females are 
    highly curious, friendly, and sociable, and can even be 
    taught tricks.  Lone females begin laying and tending eggs in 
    extreamly well-hidden nests in early spring.  The 
    initial hummingbees that hatch, all female, behave 
    similarly to their mother.  The mother then begins 
      remaining in the nest and laying eggs at a prodigious 
    rate, becoming similar to a terran queen ant with the 
    hatchlings bringing her food as needed.  
    As the colony increases in size the hummingbees become 
    less friendly, gradually becoming aggressively 
    territorial towards anything which approaches their 
    nest.  Eventually they attack 
    anything which comes near.  Hummingbees attack initially by flying 
    butt first at their target with their stingers extended, with follow-up
      attacks using their beaks.
      In late summer the queen hummingbee produces a handful 
    of males, which leave the colony in search of other 
    colonies.  If a foreign male finds the colony he breeds 
    with all the hummingbees in the nest, who then leave to 
    form their own colonies next spring.  The queen and the 
    male then die.  If no males appear then the colony 
    remains until one arrives.

Flying Cougar

    Similar to a terran mountain lion.  Its bones and 
    claws are lighter and thinner, but its jaws are large 
    and strong.  It has flaps of skin between its legs very 
    similar to those of a terran flying squirrel.  Weighs 
    about 40 lbs.  The flying cougar hunts by lurking high 
    up in trees or cliffs, watching for small to medium-sized animals 
    on the ground.  If it sees one in range it will leap 
    off of its perch and silently glide down to land on the 
    animal, dispatching it with a quick bite to the back of 
    the head.  The flying cougar can also hunt conventionally on
      the ground if it has to, and it is reasonably 
    quiet quick and agile.  The flying cougar is not 
    particularly strong and does not like to attack 
    human-sized prey, but an upright human may appear small 
    to a carnivore observing him from above and may be 
    attacked.  If the flying cougar's initial bite does not 
    kill and the prey is too large for it then the flying 
    cougar will try to run away.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 05:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 04:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The power of the Nobility
Message-ID: <ea07c4ea0052.ea0052ea07c4@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Date: Friday, July 26, 2002 9:40 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: The power of the Nobility


<<snip discussion of weapons use inside airliners>> 
> 
> Just give everybody stun guns.  They are relatively safe, handy at 
> closequarters and fairly effective.

May I please use mine on the overly-chatty passenger in the seat next 
to me?

ObTrav:  Ever notice that the areas on a ship in which gunplay is most 
likely (e.g., the bridge, engineering) are also the most vulnerable to 
the effects of stray rounds? ;-)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 06:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Aug  8 05:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] vilis landgrab
References: <20020806013403.4631.56000.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <014c01c23edb$56263660$545d8690@computer>

> Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 20:43:34 -0400
> From: "John T. Kwon"
> >I also had some thoughts about the factions of the Ine Givar
> >that were present, and their relationships with each other,
> >the Tanoose Freedom League, and Solomani supremicist groups,
> >but I will spare you those.
> No, tell me more.

Well, briefly...

IMTU, the main Ine Givar faction on Vilis looks to the Sword Worlds for
inspiration and support. A smaller faction is vaguely aligned with the
"Regina faction" who are independent, but vaguely pro-Zhodani and pro-Vargr.

The Sword Worlds is a Solomani culture, as, ultimately, is that of Vilis, so
they tend to be a bit soft on Solomani supremacists. These leads to problems
between the Ine Givar factions, since the Regina faction is rigourously
pansophontist, while the Sword Worlder faction are very soft on the
question.

The differences rarely erupt into violence, but it is rather more likely
that the Regina faction are involved in periodic struggles to defend the
Tanoosian and Vilani minorities on Vilis from Solomani supremacist gangs.
They may therefore be on better terms with the TFL than the Sword Worlder
faction, but, on the other hand, the Sword Worlder group have more money,
and support from an interstellar government.

The Regina faction only rarely engages in terrorism, and prefers to organise
non-violently. The Sword Worlds faction ...umm... There may be other
factions, as well, at least some of which could best be described as "nutty
splinter groups", or even "agents provocateur".

I hope some of this is of use to you.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 06:55:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Aug  8 05:55:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Cleon V (was Arbellatra)
References: <20020806190006.21475.58141.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <014b01c23edb$5508df80$545d8690@computer>

I haven't had time to check my emails for a couple of days, so I am
responding to oldish stuff.

> From: Donald McKinney <dmckinne@amdocs.com>
> Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 13:12:03 -0500
> I also explained the elevation of Archduke Soegz as the replacement of
> one of Emperor Joseph's (the man who defeated Cleon V, I hope I'm
> remembering right) backers...

My take is that there was an "Antares faction" that installed Martin VI, a
member of the Lentuli family, as a puppet.

Inevitably, he started to get ideas of his own, and Gustus, one of the
leaders of the faction, knocked him off.

The role of the Antares fleet in the struggle between Arbellatra and Gustus
would be one of the factors that would be involved in my PBEM, if it
happens.

(Unfortunately, this doesn't look likely at the moment - I am hopefully
going to be moving next week, which will at least temporarily disrupt my
email access.)

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com








From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 06:55:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Aug  8 05:55:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
References: <20020806203610.24254.48308.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <014d01c23edb$56ded800$545d8690@computer>

> Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 11:35:10
> From: "Douglas E. Berry"
> She probably played a different game with the Vilani.  Promises of
> increased power in the court, culminating with her son's marriage to a
> Vilani noblewoman in 679.

She was long dead, and out of the picture in 679.

To assume the marriage to Antiama was a result of the policy of Arbellatra,
rather than of Zhakirov, is to reduce Zhakirov to a cypher, and take
Arbellatra cultism a bit too far for my tastes.

In fact, I tend to take the references on Solomani influence at court being
at its height during Arbellatra's reign at face value - Zhakirov's policy
was a break from that of his mother. (And nearly led to civil war, and
actually did lead to the Imperium effectively being split in two!)

> As she drew closer to Capital, I'm sure that pretender fleets defected en
> masse rather than face annihilation.

<mumble> I really wanna do my PBEM...

> She was only 28 when the war broke out, according to canon.  I'd prefer to
> push her date of birth back to 567, making her 48 at the beginning of the
> war.  This at least gives her the age to have had a fairly long career and
> been at least an experienced Captain or junior Admiral.  This would, IMHO,
> make her seizure of the fleets far more acceptable.  No one is going to
> listen to a pup of a Ltd. Commander.

Gratuitous nepotism goes a long way. I don't see any particular problem
about her taking over the family business, especially during the Civil War,
when warlordism was rife.

A good staff will cover a multitude of sins, especially if it includes
people like Soegz. In fact, Soegz may have been the real genius.

> Does this time line work for people?

No!  : )

I've got way too many prejudices of my own on this topic. I've spent too
much time on it to not have.

It's a shame I probably won't be able to run my PBEM (in the short term). I
think my interpretation would play really well, and be plausible enough for
most people. And Gustus would probably win, given that commanders of
Arbellatra's calibre are rare.  : )

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 07:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  8 06:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
Message-ID: <200208081259.MIF02312@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Alan Bradley" says
>To assume the marriage to Antiama was a result of the policy 
>of Arbellatra, rather than of Zhakirov, is to reduce 
>Zhakirov to a cypher, and take Arbellatra cultism a bit too 
>far for my tastes.


Well, we've got the director of Braveheart doing a movie 
about Arbellatra, and we're going to play fast and loose with 
who was born when, among other historical distortions...
________________
It is impossible to travel faster than 
the speed of light and certainly not 
desirable, as ones hat keeps falling 
off...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 07:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 06:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Cleon V (was Arbellatra)
Message-ID: <f277fff28158.f28158f277ff@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Alan Bradley <abradley1@bigpond.com>
Date: Thursday, August 8, 2002 2:58 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Cleon V (was Arbellatra)

> I haven't had time to check my emails for a couple of days, so I am
> responding to oldish stuff.
> 
> > From: Donald McKinney <dmckinne@amdocs.com>
> > Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 13:12:03 -0500
> > I also explained the elevation of Archduke Soegz as the 
> replacement of
> > one of Emperor Joseph's (the man who defeated Cleon V, I hope I'm
> > remembering right) backers...
> 
> My take is that there was an "Antares faction" that installed 
> Martin VI, a
> member of the Lentuli family, as a puppet.
> 
> Inevitably, he started to get ideas of his own, and Gustus, one of the
> leaders of the faction, knocked him off.
> 
> The role of the Antares fleet in the struggle between Arbellatra 
> and Gustus
> would be one of the factors that would be involved in my PBEM, if it
> happens.

As an aside, the AuricTech Shipyards writeup in _101 Corporations_ 
mentions that AuricTech backed an unsuccessful pretender to the Iridium 
Throne during the Civil Wars (this led to the "donation" [read: 
confiscation] of most AuricTech stock, putting that stock in Imperial 
hands until it was sold to LSP).  At the time, AuricTech was 
headquartered on Sylea (or was it Capital by then?).

Can anyone suggest who such a pretender might have been?

<<snip>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 08:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 07:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Merging WTH & PE
Message-ID: <f3dd78f3fc11.f3fc11f3dd78@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Long <AndrewGLong@yahoo.com>
Date: Monday, July 8, 2002 4:20 pm
Subject: [TML] Merging WTH & PE

> I've been reading World Tamer's Handbook and Pocket Empires the 
> last week or
> so, and think it might be possible to massage them sufficiently to 
> make WTH
> feed into PE. However, I thought I'd make sure I wasn't re-
> inventing the
> wheel, and wondered if anyone else had taken a stab at it, and was 
> preparedto share their thoughts?
> 
> regards, Andy
> 
> PS - any spreadsheets around for PE or WTH?

I'm currently working on a semi-automated PE spreadsheet for 
calculating GWPs and government revenues.  As of right now, it does the 
calculations, but the user has to manually input the values.  
Eventually, I'll have tables so that the spreadsheet can automatically 
look up values based on government type et cetera, but the spreadsheet 
is right now good enough for my needs.

Any suggestions for other functions to be added as time and energy 
permit?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 09:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff D. Greenly)
Date: Thu Aug  8 08:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] I won the lottery!
Message-ID: <sd5254a9.055@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>

And now, from the I can't believe this actually happened to me files...

My SO and I were out shopping and running errands last night after
work. On the way home, she noticed that there were signs for a yard sale
to begin this morning and extend through Saturday. Never ones to pass up
good deals or good junk, we decided that if there was anyone/anything
out there this morning as we were on our way to work, we'd stop and take
a quick look...

Well, the sponsors of this particular sale were setting out their stuff
as we came up this morning, and my eye was immediately drawn to several
boxes of books that they were beginning to unpack. There were a LOT of
old science fiction paperbacks, and I started rummaging through them,
picking out a few that I wanted to buy. Out of the corner of my eye, I
noticed a familiar cover design as a box was opened, one that was black
with a red stripe! I turned to look into the box, and lo! a fairly
complete Classic Traveller collection!!!! The whole box was full of
LBB's, box sets, box games, and a copy of 5FW! I asked why these were
being sold, and the lady explained that her son was grown and in the
service and had said that he didn't want any of this stuff any more. I
asked her what she would take for the whole box, and she looked at me
with surprise, then said, "Well, how about 20 bucks?" 

As soon as I've done an inventory, I'll post a list of what's available
to sell and trade...


Jeff


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 09:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Aug  8 08:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT but soooo like a PC....
Message-ID: <3D528D4E.6010208@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

http://www.comics.com/creators/speedbump/archive/images/speedbump2002228570801.gif


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 09:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Thu Aug  8 08:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT but soooo like a PC....
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F160D@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

LOL!  Cute one :)
Jesse

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bruce Johnson [mailto:johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu]
> Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 8:25 AM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] OT but soooo like a PC....
> 
> 
> http://www.comics.com/creators/speedbump/archive/images/speedb
> ump2002228570801.gif
> 
> 
> -- 
> Bruce Johnson
> University of Arizona
> College of Pharmacy
> Information Technology Group
> 
> Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 10:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Thu Aug  8 09:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How many Xboats...
Message-ID: <3D529971.86914BB@mail.cswnet.com>

...does it take to replace a light bulb?

But Seriously...

How many Xboats/Xboat tenders does one need to maintain a single
Xboat Route?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 10:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  8 09:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How many Xboats...
Message-ID: <200208081636.MIN00707@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Roseberry asks
>How many Xboats/Xboat tenders does one need to maintain a 
>single Xboat Route?

I want to know how often X-boats leave and arrive.  If the 
boats leave on the hour (assuming a 24 hour clock), and the 
planet has a route to two other systems, then there are at 
least 48 x-boats (there should be spares, to allow for 
maintenance rotation).  Then, how many tenders do you need to 
handle two arrivals and two departures per hour?  And do we 
assume that an x-boat has to be chased down in order to get 
its messages?  I've always assumed that 99 percent of 
messages are electronic, and laser communication between an x-
boat and its tender is the form of transmission.  So, a 
tender only has to be within 1 light hour of an arriving x-
boat in order to receive messages and 1 light hour of the 
departing x-boat (for messages relayed onwards).

I'm not sure if some systems would want to have an x-boat on 
the half-hour, or more often.
________________
It is impossible to travel faster than 
the speed of light and certainly not 
desirable, as ones hat keeps falling 
off...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 10:51:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christian K)
Date: Thu Aug  8 09:51:04 2002
Subject: [TML] How many Xboats...
References: <200208081636.MIN00707@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <000f01c23efb$af484e20$0664a8c0@bigdarkone>

<snip>
>I've always assumed that 99 percent of
> messages are electronic, and laser communication between an x-
> boat and its tender is the form of transmission.  So, a
> tender only has to be within 1 light hour of an arriving x-
> boat in order to receive messages and 1 light hour of the
> departing x-boat (for messages relayed onwards).
<snip>

An XBoat per hour is darn much if you ask me considering the time of roughly
one week between jumps an hour is nothing why hurry where there is no need ?
I would asume 2 or 3 boats a day is more realistic besides the fact that at
last under GT rules travel time is not fixed it ranges between 6 and 7days
48mins.

just my two cents

Chris



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 10:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  8 09:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT but soooo like a PC....
In-Reply-To: <3D528D4E.6010208@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020808092952.009feec0@mindspring.com>

At 08:25 AM 8/8/02 -0700, you wrote:
>http://www.comics.com/creators/speedbump/archive/images/speedbump2002228570801.gif

Cute.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.
gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Author of GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces
Geek Code: tc tm tn- t4-- tg++$ ru ge+ 3i+@ c+
            jt- au pi he+ as+ so-                           



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 10:52:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  8 09:52:26 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <e4e645e4c45c.e4c45ce4e645@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020808093155.009fdec0@mindspring.com>

At 11:08 AM 8/8/02 +0300, you wrote:

> > Don't forget - the outgoing commander has to do an inventory
> > with the new commander, and the new commander gets to sign
> > for the ship and all of the equipment in it.
>
>Anybody know if a _Nimitz_-class CVN has a National Stock Number? ;-)

Since each one is manufactured individually, I doubt it.  But the F-14D 
does.  As does the M1-A1 MBT.  I spent some time helping out in the supply 
room, where I learned how to steal someone blind while staying inside the 
rules.  I also found a NSN number for a nuclear reactor.

>ObTrav:  GT:GF mentions the 3I's equivalent to NSNs; do major warship
>classes have such numbers?

Imperial vessels seem to be much more standardized when compared to the US 
Navy, so perhaps they issued as a unit.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 10:52:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  8 09:52:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D5C@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020808093629.009ed970@mindspring.com>

At 03:11 PM 8/7/02 -0400, you wrote:

>Great story from Vietnam. As usual can't remember the source:
>
>A local village mayor was known to be a VC supporter, but no one could prove
>it or do anything about it.
>One day some American intelligence types, after a firefight, threw some
>recovered VC bodies onto a jeep and drove into the village. They drove up to
>the mayor's house.
>Now, you have to picture this. The VC bodies are in full view of everyone in
>the village.
>As far as I know, the mayor did not speak English, and the Americans did not
>speak Vietnamese.
>The Americans smiled, clapped the horrified mayor on the back, and unloaded
>gifts of food, a radio, bundles of cash, etcetera, and drove off.
>Three guesses on how long the mayor lived after that?

That's a trick sometimes used by the police to turn an informant.  Arrest a 
bunch of people at a crack house.  Tell your target that he's going to be 
let go without charges, right in front of all the other detainees.  The 
target usually panics, and will do anything not to be treated differently.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 11:13:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Aug  8 10:13:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Spam Spam Spam Spam...
References: <11b.147a05c3.2a82e8cc@cs.com> <20020808101200.30a20555.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <3D52A656.4040309@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Jens Rydholm wrote:
> On Wed, 07 Aug 2002 17:19:08 -0400 (EDT)
> Damage169@cs.com wrote:
> 
> 
>>More like, "Groat Musk Perfume would be a nasty thing to suffer a container 
>>breach while in the PC's cargo hold..." Especially in a S-class Scout/Courier.
> 
> 
> Yes, that would be a very nasty problem. Very subtle. How would the PCs notice that the cargo container had been damaged?

Scout 1:"Sven...you smell that??!!"
Scout 2:"Yah, Joe...it smells *nice* in here!"
S1, S2 (simultaneously) "Oh sh*t!!!" <dive for vaccsuits)



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 11:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  8 10:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <20020808172611.81955.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>

>Great story from Vietnam. As usual can't remember the source:
>
>A local village mayor was known to be a VC supporter, but no one 
>could prove it or do anything about it.

That's disinformation at its best.  I've read the story, but I can't
remember where.  Maybe it's in Dispatches by Michael (?) Herr.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 11:35:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  8 10:35:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re: army usage
Message-ID: <20020808173458.40698.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>

>This is true and not contrary to what I said at all. 

It only contradicts your statement that the Taliban was composed
primarily of members of a tribe in southwestern Afghanistan.  As
someone else pointed out, neither of us were precisely correct nor
completely wrong.

>ObTrav: How does the citizens of a world view interference into
their
>local affairs by the Imperium? I guess that it is takes a wide range
>of sentiments, but that most worlds really want to settle their 
>issues wiyhout the IMperium medeling. Even if it means a nuclear
war.

In my Traveller universe, most worlds prefer to do everything
themselves, or in cooperation with their neighbors, without any
Imperial interference or "assistance" -- except when they really need
it, like when a foreign power invades.  Sometimes worlds will seek
Imperial assistance in mediating a conflict to avoid war, but not
always.  This is one of the reasons the Imperium tries to keep
weapons of mass destruction out of the hands of its member states, or
at least to keep such weapons tied to defense of the system from
foreign powers.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 11:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  8 10:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  vilis landgrab
Message-ID: <20020808175404.91566.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com>

>These leads to problems between the Ine Givar factions, since the
>Regina faction is rigourously pansophontist, while the Sword Worlder
>faction are very soft on the question.

Only the Solidariti splinter group is "rigourously pansophontist." 
The Credo Front supports a pansophontist platform, but does not
become distracted by what are currently minor doctrinal issues. 
"When the agents of the oppressors start shooting, your first thought
must be to shoot back, not whether you hold the gun in your right
hand or your left."*

>The Regina faction only rarely engages in terrorism, and prefers to 
>organise non-violently. 

Riiiight.  This must have been written by a Solidariti member; they
are masters of keeping a straight face.

--Subcommander Cosram, Credo Front of the Ine Givar Movement

*Black Book of Quotations of Zid Rachele 2:66

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 12:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bernie McGeehan)
Date: Thu Aug  8 11:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] 100 ton scout ship?
In-Reply-To: <berka_3d4644bb22764@webmail.berka.com>
Message-ID: <20020808184852.12064.qmail@web13403.mail.yahoo.com>

I found this while flipping through the pages of
Space.com....Vilani contact teams in Illinois?
Hmmmmm...
<a href= "http://www.space.com/php/multimedia/imagedisplay/img_display.php?pic=h_black_trihigh_02,0.jpg&cap=Estimated%20to%20be%20600%20feet%20long%20and%20300%20feet%20wide,%20with%20a%20height%20of%2040%20feet,%20the%20Black%20Triangle%20could%20weigh%20as%20much%20as%20100%20tons.%20%20Courtesy%20of%20National%20Institute%20for%20Discovery%20Science%20(NIDS)">http://www.space.com/php/multimedia/imagedisplay/img_display.php?pic=h_black_trihigh_02,0.jpg&cap=Estimated%20to%20be%20600%20feet%20long%20and%20300%20feet%20wide,%20with%20a%20height%20of%2040%20feet,%20the%20Black%20Triangle%20could%20weigh%20as%20much%20as%20100%20tons.%20%20Courtesy%20of%20National%20Institute%20for%20Discovery%20Science%20(NIDS)</a>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 12:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  8 11:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <200208081849.MIR02148@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry says
>I also found a NSN number for a nuclear reactor.

Now all you need is your own jump drive.
________________
It is impossible to travel faster than 
the speed of light and certainly not 
desirable, as ones hat keeps falling 
off...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 13:27:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Thu Aug  8 12:27:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial taxes
In-Reply-To: <20020803223629.15105.10842.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208082116470.9347-100000@ask.diku.dk>

David P. Summers writes:
>At 12:30 AM -0400 8/3/02, hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>>In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head tax" or does it charge
>>an income tax on its citizens for its Imperial Budget requirements?  In
>>short, if the Imperial government taxes 10% of a Gross Planetary Product,
>>then it would in essence be an income tax.  If it charges a flat 500 CR
>>per person on a planet, then it is a head tax.  Which is it?

According to _Striker_, the Imperium charges each world (or in the case
of balkanized worlds, each nation) a percentage of its total military
budget (These budgets, in turn, are based on GWPs, but this may be a
simplification for gaming purposes). It does not say how this sum is
collected. I assume that the Imperium gets a check from each government.

>>And I find it an interesting thought here.  If the Imperium charges say,
>>3% of a planet's gross planetary product for its military taxes - this ta=
x
>>is on top of the local ruler's/government's tax.  How much in the way of
>>taxes can a population take before its economy begins to stagnate?

Again according to _Striker_ total military budgets ranges from 1-15% of
GWP, 1% being after a long period of peace and 15% being when actually at
war.=A0Average for the Imperium is 3%. Real world examples show that
countries can manage 8-9% more or less indefinitely and more than 15% for
a while (although this tends to put a severe strain on the economy).

>My impression is that imperial taxes are very indirect (they collect
>money from the member states.  The only direct taxes are the fees
>they collect at starports?

That seems to be the case. It is unclear how much, if anything, the
Imperium collects for expenses other than military ones (and whether or
not the Scouts come out of the military budget or not). I think it quite
possible that the Emperor's Share of all interstellar companies is enough
to pay for the Imperial bureaucracy.


Hans



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 14:19:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  8 13:19:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Lawyers should look into this...
Message-ID: <200208082017.MIT04892@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I was reading the LA Times, and I thought I was reading Book 
4.

"They envision super soldiers, arriving silently by stealth 
helicopter,"

ok, a grav vehicle full of commandos...

"wearing temperature-controlled suits that can repel chemical 
and biological agents and make an individual nearly invisible 
by suppressing infrared and other telltale signatures, 
including body odor."

ok, combat environment suit with chameleon mod...

"They envision silent guns"

ok, a gauss rifle

"and lightweight, blast-intensive explosives, futuristic 
arsenals of dazzling lasers and high-power microwave and 
acoustic weapons."

hmm...  And your parents may have told you that none of that 
science fiction roleplaying game you and your friends were 
playing in the basement would ever come to pass...
________________
It is impossible to travel faster than 
the speed of light and certainly not 
desirable, as ones hat keeps falling 
off...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 14:23:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Aug  8 13:23:05 2002
Subject: [TML] 100 ton scout ship?
In-Reply-To: <20020808184852.12064.qmail@web13403.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <berka_3d4644bb22764@webmail.berka.com>
 <20020808184852.12064.qmail@web13403.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020808222246.2f21bbe3.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Thu, 08 Aug 2002 11:48:52 -0700 (PDT)
Bernie McGeehan <einreb62@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I found this while flipping through the pages of
> Space.com....Vilani contact teams in Illinois?

Is there any way to find the article to which the picture belongs? The "Return to story" link is history based (and thus doesn't work).

Meanwhile, I played around a bit with the URL. Try this one instead.

http://www.space.com/php/multimedia/imagedisplay/img_display.php?pic=h_black_trihigh_02,0.jpg&cap=All%20your%20base%20are%20belong%20to%20us

Note to self: Don't make web pages that have this bug/feature.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 15:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Thu Aug  8 14:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <02080817101100.00601@linux>

> > 	How many dinky airless rockballs with large populations do the
> > world generation rules permit?
>
> What does that matter?  They obviously don't need trade for survival.
> It's not like they'll starve if you isolate them.
>
>
	I know that they won't starve. Out of curiosity, I decided to work out what 
might happen though. 
My assumptions were : A100999-F  3 gg's     1 belt       hi va na   f5VI
			all 2d6=7 to be average and show possible outcomes for 1d6
			population mod=5

	First I tried Hard Times without imposing any war damage and only cutting 
trade.  It predicted a 33% chance of the Class a starport dropping to b, 
followed by a 2 to 5 point drop in tech level. This is caused presumably by 
the abandonment of the economy by the megacorps and other trade. This would 
cause a big recession forcing the government to increase law level by 3 to 5 
points in order to control rioting, civil unrest, etc. By the fifth year, 
things level out again, but there is a chance that a coup, or revolution 
takes place ( gov changes to feudal technocracy, martial law, or oligarchy).
	Then I tried  Pocket Empires. Everything is fine except that net per capita 
income seems awfully low. If that represents the middle class, then the poor 
will be starving or in the military or on welfare.
	Finally, I tried world tamer's handbook, though not a full sim. 
Food production is not a problem at tech 15, however even at t15, the surface 
area required to grow food is much greater than exists on the surface of the 
rockball without even considering area for housing or industry or materials 
production. IT would take a tech 15 arcology 25000 km^2 just to house 
everyone. As all hydroponics would be underground, there would also be huge 
power requirements just to grow the food. Again, wealth distribution would be 
the deciding factor as to who starved and who ate well.
	So , no, the dinky rockballs don't need outside trade. Yes, it could really 
suck to live on one though. The system must really be bad to force the choice 
of settling the entire population of the earth on a planetoid half the 
diameter of the moon. 
	hmmm. as a rpg setting, it could be fun. endless corridors and caverns 
during a bloody revolution? anyone for a game of doom?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 15:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Kerby)
Date: Thu Aug  8 14:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] I won the lottery!
In-Reply-To: <sd5254a9.055@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
Message-ID: <000901c23f22$46a658e0$44cbb3cf@yourg4lzvxou0c>

Its people like you that cause unrest... or salivating at the mouth in
anticipation of lists...

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Jeff D. Greenly
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 10:23 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] I won the lottery!

And now, from the I can't believe this actually happened to me files...

My SO and I were out shopping and running errands last night after
work. On the way home, she noticed that there were signs for a yard sale
to begin this morning and extend through Saturday. Never ones to pass up
good deals or good junk, we decided that if there was anyone/anything
out there this morning as we were on our way to work, we'd stop and take
a quick look...

Well, the sponsors of this particular sale were setting out their stuff
as we came up this morning, and my eye was immediately drawn to several
boxes of books that they were beginning to unpack. There were a LOT of
old science fiction paperbacks, and I started rummaging through them,
picking out a few that I wanted to buy. Out of the corner of my eye, I
noticed a familiar cover design as a box was opened, one that was black
with a red stripe! I turned to look into the box, and lo! a fairly
complete Classic Traveller collection!!!! The whole box was full of
LBB's, box sets, box games, and a copy of 5FW! I asked why these were
being sold, and the lady explained that her son was grown and in the
service and had said that he didn't want any of this stuff any more. I
asked her what she would take for the whole box, and she looked at me
with surprise, then said, "Well, how about 20 bucks?" 

As soon as I've done an inventory, I'll post a list of what's available
to sell and trade...


Jeff

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 15:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thing)
Date: Thu Aug  8 14:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] 100 ton scout ship?
References: <berka_3d4644bb22764@webmail.berka.com><20020808184852.12064.qmail@web13403.mail.yahoo.com> <20020808222246.2f21bbe3.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <001d01c23f23$20c6cd20$0100a8c0@pentacle>

On Thursday, August 08, 2002 1:22 PM
Jens Rydholm said,

> Is there any way to find the article to which the picture belongs? The
"Return to story" link is history based (and thus doesn't work).
>
> Meanwhile, I played around a bit with the URL. Try this one instead.
>
>
http://www.space.com/php/multimedia/imagedisplay/img_display.php?pic=h_black
_trihigh_02,0.jpg&cap=All%20your%20base%20are%20belong%20to20us

I believe this is the article in question.

http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/black_triangle_020805.htm
l

G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
Grand Master of the Electron Flow
Minion to SheChemist and GothBunny
==========================
"I have taken all knowledge to be my province." -Francis Bacon


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 15:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Aug  8 14:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  vilis landgrab
References: <20020808190005.17449.17738.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c23f25$6fcf6d80$f1b18b90@computer>

> From: "Glenn M. Goffin" 
> --Subcommander Cosram, Credo Front of the Ine Givar Movement

Splitters!

On behalf of the Regina Regional Committee of the Ine Givar (Solidariti)

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 15:45:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Aug  8 14:45:27 2002
Subject: [TML] How many Xboats...
In-Reply-To: <200208081636.MIN00707@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208081636.MIN00707@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020809074313.A2995@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:

> If the boats leave on the hour (assuming a 24 hour clock), and the
> planet has a route to two other systems, then there are at least 48
> x-boats (there should be spares, to allow for maintenance rotation).

Given that the cycle time for any given x-boat is no less than two
weeks, if they depart on the hour to two other systems then you'll
need about 700 of them.


> I'm not sure if some systems would want to have an x-boat on the
> half-hour, or more often.

How many systems could *afford* an x-boat on the half-hour?  Would it
be worth the cost?  I doubt it.

X-boats that depart on the half-hour don't arrive on the half-hour.
Sending them more often than half a day or so starts to run into the
uncertainty of +-16 hours in the duration of each jump.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 15:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  8 14:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How many Xboats...
Message-ID: <200208082149.MIX01956@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>X-boats that depart on the half-hour don't arrive on the 
>half-hour.
>Sending them more often than half a day or so starts to run 
>into the uncertainty of +-16 hours in the duration of each 
>jump.

I believe that at a minimum, people would want at least a 
daily run.
________________
It is impossible to travel faster than 
the speed of light and certainly not 
desirable, as ones hat keeps falling 
off...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 15:54:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Aug  8 14:54:04 2002
Subject: [TML] animals
Message-ID: <Springmail.0994.1028843628.0.04003000@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>

Flykiller@aol.com posted:
> 
> Hummingbee
<snip> 
> Flying Cougar

Try the Singapore native snake. A story about it was posted today at:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/DailyNews/snake020807.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 16:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Aug  8 15:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] 100 ton scout ship?
References: <berka_3d4644bb22764@webmail.berka.com><20020808184852.12064.qmail@web13403.mail.yahoo.com> <20020808222246.2f21bbe3.jenry023@student.liu.se> <001d01c23f23$20c6cd20$0100a8c0@pentacle>
Message-ID: <3D52EBE3.1030401@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Thing wrote:

 > 
http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/black_triangle_020805.htm
 >  l

Just a quick email note. If you enclose your url's in <> brackets, most
capable email clients will recognize and assemble even multiline url's
properly.

http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/black_triangle_020805.htm
l

Will most likely give a 404 error, but

<http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/black_triangle_020805.html>

usually will work, even if it's broken over two lines

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 16:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 15:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT Help Needed
Message-ID: <7f.2a5ba891.2a844764@aol.com>

I need the help of the list with my MSc.

I am studying the Public Understanding of Science (PUS) and have decided to 
harness the Power Of The Internet(tm) to investigate peoples knowledge and 
attitudes about cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) and "do not resuscitate" 
DNAR orders.

Anyone who would like to help can do so by filling in an online survey and by 
letting others know the URL and what I'm after. More information and access 
to the questionnaire can be found at:

http://members.aol.com/researchfiend/index.html

Thanks in advance to all those who agree to help.  

Charles

I addressed some cheerful chit-chat at the man opposite but was rewarded with 
grunt. I tried the man next to me but he just looked at the gentleman I had 
tried first and said "Do you know what he's talking about?" At this point I 
realised I was getting out my depth but the Dean stepped in and saved me, "Oh 
don't worry about it" he said, "They're mathematicians - we never talk to 
them."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 16:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Aug  8 15:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <02080817101100.00601@linux>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux>
Message-ID: <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>

richard honeycutt wrote:
> My assumptions were : A100999-F  3 gg's     1 belt       hi va na   f5VI
[...]
> 	First I tried Hard Times without imposing any war damage and only cutting 
> trade.  It predicted a 33% chance of the Class a starport dropping to b, 
> followed by a 2 to 5 point drop in tech level. This is caused presumably by 
> the abandonment of the economy by the megacorps and other trade.

Good lord!  That seems way out of whack with the actual level of trade
the planet has according to the Far Trader rules.  I get a total
external trade level of about 300 GCr/year, and average GWP of 60 TCr
per year.

Would the loss of trade worth 0.5% of their economy really have that
drastic an effect within a year or two?  I think most people wouldn't
even notice.  I can understand that the starport might drop to B
through disuse, though probably only if it doesn't have any
intrasystem traffic (that might be why a 33% chance).

A massive drop in tech level seems *exceedingly* unlikely though.  In
trade volume terms, it would be like the Phillipines "abandoning" the
economy of the rest of the world, causing the rest of the world to
experience a massive economic slump, rioting, civil unrest, and
reversion to pre-WWI technology.  No offense to inhabitants of the
Phillipines, but I don't think they prop up the rest of the world.

Likewise, I don't think the minute volume of trade props up the
high-pop worlds in Traveller.


> Food production is not a problem at tech 15, however even at t15,
> the surface area required to grow food is much greater than exists
> on the surface of the rockball

That's broken.  An average hectare per person assigned to food
production is ample even with current technology and without trying
hard.  Tech level 15 should be able to do *much* better.


> without even considering area for housing or industry or materials
> production. IT would take a tech 15 arcology 25000 km^2 just to
> house everyone.

Given that the rockball has a surface area of more than 30000000 km^2,
that's not a concern.


> As all hydroponics would be underground, there would also be huge
> power requirements just to grow the food.

That's not a problem, even if you do decide to abandon the surface.
Traveller fusion power is *really* cheap.  A megawatt would cost no
more than Cr10/week.  It would certainly take much less power than a
megawatt per person to grow food.

In fact, it takes less than a hundred kilowatts per person at current
tech without any concern for energy efficiency.  Yes, that's including
light input.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 16:35:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Aug  8 15:35:05 2002
Subject: [TML] How many Xboats...
In-Reply-To: <200208082149.MIX01956@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208082149.MIX01956@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020809083445.C2995@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> I believe that at a minimum, people would want at least a daily run.

I agree -- half a day between X-boats would be about right, I think.
So what if many of them arrive in the wrong order? :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 16:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Aug  8 15:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How many Xboats...
In-Reply-To: <200208082149.MIX01956@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D539CBE.10878.42BDF9@localhost>

On 8 Aug 2002 at 17:49, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Timothy Little says
> >X-boats that depart on the half-hour don't arrive on the 
> >half-hour.
> >Sending them more often than half a day or so starts to run 
> >into the uncertainty of +-16 hours in the duration of each 
> >jump.
> 
> I believe that at a minimum, people would want at least a 
> daily run.

I've always assumed a daily run down each branch IMTU, plus assorted 
special runs as required.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 16:50:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  8 15:50:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux>
 <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <02080817101100.00601@linux>
 <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <m3sn1p7yq7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:
> 
> That's broken.  An average hectare per person assigned to food
> production is ample even with current technology and without trying
> hard.  Tech level 15 should be able to do *much* better.

You can feed a man on 2 1/2 acres?  What would you be planting?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I've resigned myself to seeing everything I consider meritorious slowly
destroyed by the forces of corruption, greed and stupidity, but it's
really adding insult to injury that they can't even maintain a facade of
competence.                                                --Tim Mefford

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 17:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Aug  8 16:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3D53003A.1070102@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Timothy Little wrote:
> richard honeycutt wrote:
> 
>>My assumptions were : A100999-F  3 gg's     1 belt       hi va na   f5VI
> 
> [...]
> 
>>	First I tried Hard Times without imposing any war damage and only cutting 
>>trade.  It predicted a 33% chance of the Class a starport dropping to b, 
>>followed by a 2 to 5 point drop in tech level. This is caused presumably by 
>>the abandonment of the economy by the megacorps and other trade.
> 
> 
> Good lord!  That seems way out of whack with the actual level of trade
> the planet has according to the Far Trader rules.  I get a total
> external trade level of about 300 GCr/year, and average GWP of 60 TCr
> per year.

This is because all of the above econmomic models (Hard Times, GT:FT, 
WBH, WTH) are all a) mutually incompatible, and b) subject to widely 
varying assumptions.

You can't compare these, and which model is correct depends on which 
rule set you use.

In general econometric analysis of the OTU is going to be pretty much 
hopeless, imo, because the gaps in data are so much larger than the data.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 18:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Thu Aug  8 17:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020806113510.45efd91c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEOGEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>IMHO, the model for Arbellatra is Augustus--not Julius--Caesar. That is,
she
>>was more a illiant politician than a brilliant general. I base this on a
few
>>factors:
>
>Good model.  I was thinking a bit of Hitler, personally.  Same kind of
>personal magnetism.
>
Charisma in a politician  to this extent is not entirely unknown across the
political spectrum. Julius Caesar certainly had it, as did Alexander the
Great, as well as possibly Franklin Roosevelt and Hitler.

>>1) She essentially lost the 2FW but still managed to declare victory and
>>mobilize the Marches behind her. (Remember, the Imperium ceded territory
to
>>the Zhodani after the war, and Library Data mentions that the final
>>engagement resulted in a "stalemate" between the two sides. She basically
>>one the war the same way the U.S. "won" the War of 1812--by not losing as
>>badly as expected.)
>
>This might have come from misunderstanding Zhodani war goals.  Arbellatra
>probably knew from the start that the Zhodani wanted to remove the Imperium
>from Zhodani territory, not destroy the Imperium.  But playing up the image
>of the Zho's as barbarians helped her cause.  A draw was as good as a
>victory to her.

I suspect that she did know more about the Zhodani than her contemporaries.
The Zhos have never been expansionist and have only attempted to restrain
the Imperium's expansionistic tendencies.

<snip>
>
>>3) Her masterly stroke of refusing the crown is remarkably similar to
>>Augustus' own "retirement" from government--while in truth retaining a
firm
>>grip on the reins of power. (The people of Rome demanded at one point that
>>he publish a list of candidates he favored, so they would know who to vote
>>for--not from coercion, but from a devotion to Augustus.)
>
>It is her that I am of two minds..  I sort of like the idea that she
>honestly meant to find a surviving Zhunastu heir; only taking the throne
>when that proved impossible.
>

I  also like the idea that she was most concerned with the Imperium and
honestly tried to find an heir.

>>My interpretation may also explain her meteoric rise to high command at
such
>>a young age--perhaps her title of Grand Admiral of the Marches was a
>>ceremonial one, or rank was determined by noble standing to a much greater
>>degree in the antebellum Imperium. (Indeed, perhaps Arbellatra reformed
the
>>military to make it more egalitarian, not only to prevent a rival from
>>rising in a fashion like her own, but to insure loyalty to the Emperor and
>>the Imperium and not the individual commander, as seems to be the case
with
>>Plankwell and the other Emperors of the Flag.)
>
>"Nothing succeeds like success" they say.  I've always sensed that along
>with being politically brilliant, she was possibly the greatest strategic
>and tactical mind the Imperium ever saw.  She was only 28 when the war
>broke out, according to canon.  I'd prefer to push her date of birth back
>to 567, making her 48 at the beginning of the war.  This at least gives her
>the age to have had a fairly long career and been at least an experienced
>Captain or junior Admiral.  This would, IMHO, make her seizure of the
>fleets far more acceptable.  No one is going to listen to a pup of a Ltd.
>Commander.
>
Alexander the great succeeded to the thrown at the age of twenty. By the
time he was 32 he controlled nearly the entire known world, at least as
known to him. In a society where a child's future position of command is
known at a very early age military training would start at a very young age.
I see her as reading Sun Tsu by age nine and Machiavelli by age twelve. If
she was a prodigy she could have been an ensign by age 18 or 20. If she was
successful in actual combat missions, against pirates or corsairs she could
have risen rapidly, or perhaps she outfitted her own ship and was actually a
"privateer noble" captain before the war. Francis Drake was a ships captain
at the age of twenty, and already a legendary privateer at that time.

The fact is we don't know how the Imperial fleet was made up at that time.
CT's character generation rules seem to indicate that the IN during the
1100's follows modern (20th century) wet Navy practices, with Naval
Academies, OCS, etc. This doesn't really say anything about how the Imperial
Navy operated four hundred years earlier.

The U.S. Naval Academy (the original one at Philadelphia not the one at
Annapolis) was founded because young officers (who were trained aboard ship
as midshipmen as described in the Hornblower novels) rebelled and Navy
leaders wanted them to have a more formal education, which included more
stringent discipline in a more controlled setting.

If officers of Arbellatra's time were trained in the fleet, instead of on
planet at an academy, then she could have been an officer while still in her
teens. If ships and fleets were personally raised by nobles, then if she
showed herself competent or her family had enough money she could very well
have been a captain while still in her twenties. Such a fleet would be more
loyal to the people who raised it that to the Imperium, or at least to the
Emperor.

I like her young age. It fits in well with a more age of sail feel for the
setting during this time. A closer tie between a fleet's admiral's and
officers and the men and women manning the ships would result if all the
fleets were colonial in nature. It explains why Plankwell's fleet followed
him to capital, without a serious dissenting voice. And why the other fleets
would follow their leaders without seriously protesting in the name of the
Emperor.

I could really get into this period. I find it much more interesting than
the Interstellar War period. (Sorry Loren.)



Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 18:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  8 17:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How many Xboats...
Message-ID: <200208090022.MJB03321@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>So what if many of them arrive in the wrong order? :)

Your email can arrive in the wrong order, theoretically.  But 
everything has a timestamp specifying the incept of the 
message.
________________
It is impossible to travel faster than 
the speed of light and certainly not 
desirable, as ones hat keeps falling 
off...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 18:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  8 17:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <200208090025.MJB03477@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Robert Uhl asks
>You can feed a man on 2 1/2 acres?  What would you be 
>planting?

Soylent green.
________________
It is impossible to travel faster than 
the speed of light and certainly not 
desirable, as ones hat keeps falling 
off...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 19:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 18:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] jenry023@student.liu.se
Message-ID: <a.2330244c.2a8474ff@aol.com>

 >I am working on creating a Traveller campaign in which your adventure would 
fit  >nicely, though... will run it as soon as one of the other campaigns 
end...

Please let me know how it turns out.  Thanks.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 19:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Aug  8 18:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <m3sn1p7yq7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
 <02080313391901.00601@linux>
 <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <02080817101100.00601@linux>
 <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020808214249.025e5ec8@192.168.0.1>

At 04:49 PM 8/8/2002 -0600, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
>Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:
> >
> > That's broken.  An average hectare per person assigned to food
> > production is ample even with current technology and without trying
> > hard.  Tech level 15 should be able to do *much* better.
>
>You can feed a man on 2 1/2 acres?  What would you be planting?

Well, first off, as Bruce Johnson said, all the various version are mostly 
incompatible with each other.

Second, I keep see folks say stuff like "well, at TL 15 this isn't a 
problem".  All of the Imperium is not running at TL 15.
You have TL 12 & TL 11 or lower rockballs out there.  Sure they can import 
cool high tech stuff, but how long can a TL 9 rockball support TL 15 
equipment on their own?

As to what they grow to get that yield, there are things that will do it, 
like the blue green algae I mentioned before.
That makes a boring diet though. It's a good staple, but for long term 
usage, you're gonna want to have variety.
If it's too expensive to import, then you have to grow it locally.  Ya, 
beef is great stuff, but it takes a lot of grain to feed a cow, and then 
space for the cow.

Space is big, even if you just limit it to Imperial Space, it's big.
You will probably find a wide range of solutions.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 19:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Thu Aug  8 18:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Do I have to Yahoo! ?
Message-ID: <000c01c23f32$9edea020$c9c4d63f@customer>

Could someone tell me if it is necessary to follow these instructions to
subscribe to The JTAS

John Scarlett

Hello jlscarlett@earthlink.net,

We have received your request to join the JTAS
group hosted by Yahoo! Groups, a free, easy-to-use community service.

This request will expire in 21 days.

TO BECOME A MEMBER OF THE GROUP:

1) Go to the Yahoo! Groups site by clicking on this link:


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  (If clicking doesn't work, "Cut" and "Paste" the line above into your
   Web browser's address bar.)

-OR-

2) REPLY to this email by clicking "Reply" and then "Send"
   in your email program

If you did not request, or do not want, a membership in the
JTAS group, please accept our apologies
and ignore this message.

Regards,

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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 19:57:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Thu Aug  8 18:57:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Food requirements for people
In-Reply-To: <200208090025.MJB03477@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020808220125.0295d6b0@mail.buffnet.net>

For what it is worth - in medieval times, a family of 5, 2 adults and 3 
children, could survive on the produce of 15 acres per year.  This works 
out to 3 acres on average per person.  Keep in mind as well, that the 15 
acres of land no only supported the 5 people, but produced enough surplus 
that for every 10 peasant families working the land, 1 city family was 
supported.  Overall, I'm guessing that each 3 acres of land provided enough 
support for 1.1 people on average.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 20:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Thu Aug  8 19:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020806114206.364f75c8@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNIEOHEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>The one thing I can't stand is the ship designs. I loath the Caen. Among
>>other problems: Where are the navy ratings bunked? They certainly wouldn't
>>be with the Marines, not since the rest of canon says that they should be
>>living in staterooms, which I would suppose are separate from the
officer's
>>staterooms. I could go on and on about the failings of the design, but I
>>don't want to rant.
>
>I have problems with the Caen deckplans myself.  It was designed as a very
>"close" ship, and I did put in that the rest of the Navy thinks the crews
>that work the Caens are oddballs.  If you have an improved design, I'd love
>to see it.
>--
>
>Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com

Here's a slightly revised Caen design, with a nod to Heinlein:

1,200-ton Roger Young -class Dropship, Davy Crockett (TL12)
Crew: 30 Total. 20 Command and Control, 1 Maneuver Drive, 1 Jump Drive, 2
Medical, 4 Nuclear Damper Operators, 1 Weapon Bay Gunners, 2 Turret Gunners.
Hull: 1,200-ton USL, Medium Frame, Standard Materials, Bonded Superdense
(Expensive) Armored Hull (DR 2,000, Thermal Super-conducting Armor,
Psi-Shielded, Instant Chameleon, LCD Skin), Standard Compartmentalization.
Control Areas: Command Bridge (Hardened, Complexity 10), Military
Information Center (Hardened, Complexity 10).
Communicator Range (mi)	Radio	Maser	Laser	Meson
Command Bridge	50,000,000	0	100,000,000	200,000

Sensors Range/Rating (mi)	Passive	Active	Radscanner
Command Bridge	100,000/41	200,000/43	30,000/38
Engineering: Engineering, 60 Jump Drive, 170 Maneuver Drive (3.03 / 3.86 Gs,
17,000 stons thrust), 240 Fuel Tank, 2 Fuel Processor (15 hours to refine ),
3 Utility.
Accommodations: 76 4 Person Bunkroom, 10 Stateroom, 2 Sickbay (6 Patients),
Operating Theater (2 Patients), 2 Low Berth (8 Cryoberths), 20 Drop Capsule
Rack (320 Users), 2 Drop Capsule Launcher, 16 Battle Dress Morgue (320
Users), 3 Shooting Range (6 Users), 3 Gymnasium (12 Users), Military
Holoventure.
Armaments: Nuclear Damper (10 mi), 1 Lg Internal Bay Battery of 1 (Lg Lt
Missile Bay [8200], Lg Lt Missile Bay Load [x8200]), 2 Turret Batteries of 1
each (DR 1,000, 3x405 Mj Std Laser[RoF Bonus +1]).
Weapon Name	Qty	Type	Acc	SS	Dmg	RoF	1/2 Rng	Max
Lg Lt Missile Bay [8200]	1					(+0)		10,000,000/1000
405 Mj Std Laser	6	Imp	33	30	5dx100(2)	1/60 (+7)	26000/3	78100/8

Missiles/Probes	Qty	DR	G-Rds	Exp Dmg	KK-Dmg	Size	AMod	PMod
Lg Lt Missile Bay Load [x8200]	1	120	10G-30	6dx80(10)	6dx100(5)	0	-8	-8
Stores: 55 Vehicle Bay (55 dtons for small craft available).
Statistics: DMass 4,165.47 stons, EMass 4,405.47 stons, LMass 5,609.17
stons, Base Cost MCr404.64, Load Cost MCr172.28, Total Cost MCr576.92, HP
75,000, Damage Threshold 7,500, Size Mod +10, HT 12, 96.6 Man-Hours/day
Maintenance.
Space Performance: Jump-4, sAcc 3.03/3.03/3.86/4.08 Gs.
Air Performance: aSpeed 600 mph, Skimming aSpeed 11,692 mph, aLift 17,000
stons.
Sample Times : Orbit 0.11 Hrs, Escape Velocity 0.16 Hrs, 100D 3.67 Hrs,
Earth-Mars 62.97 Hrs.
Options
All times are Earth Std, Full Load.
100D and Earth-Mars assume mid-point turnover.
Printed with GMV Version 2.32.01 on 08/08/2002 9:33:24 PM
Copyright (c) 2002 by I.T. Carlino

I reduced the armor to 2000 and the speed to 3 G, fully loaded. This thing
isn't going to be fighting in the line of battle.  This speed should be
adequate. It's still almost as fast as a Keith Transport, and faster than a
Nakerkh lander. This let me reduce the M-drives enough to replace the bunk
rooms with 4 person staterooms. (I hope I got them right. I doubled the cost
and weight of a two man stateroom, so I probably over compensated.)

The write up says that the Imperium normally loads out bunkrooms with 4
person per stateroom. It strikes me that this kind of Dropship will
typically be on patrol with Marines ready to deploy. So the four person per
room makes sense to me. I hope Starships has an official 4 person stateroom
module. I certainly pushed it hard enough during the playtest. I included 10
Staterooms for officers. Four are for ships officers and the other six for
Marine Officers

Of the 20 Command and Control personnel half should be Marines in the
Military Information Center, which I would suppose is the same as the Caen's
Tactical Command Center.

Crew will consist of Captain, Pilot, Navigator, Chief Engineer, Doctor, as
well as more engineers than indicated above. Probably at least 4 more. I
would expect 6 ship officers sharing 3 staterooms with the captain have a
stateroom to herself. The troop commander will probably have a private
stateroom also. With the rest being shared by the rest of the Marine
Officers.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 20:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 19:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Do I have to Yahoo! ?
Message-ID: <177.cae8ad7.2a847ccf@aol.com>

--part1_177.cae8ad7.2a847ccf_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> Could someone tell me if it is necessary to follow these instructions to
> subscribe to The JTAS.

Hmmm.

The JTAS group on Yahoo! is mostly just for announcements of new
content in the real Journal of the Traveller's Aid Society. I've never seen
it used for anything else.

If you want to subscribe to JTAS itself - the actual webzine currently
run by Steve Jackson Games - you can go to http://jtas.sjgames.com/ .
There are samples of content that you can look at before deciding
whether you want to subscribe or not, and I believe you can actually
subscribe using a link from that page.

Enjoy.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

--part1_177.cae8ad7.2a847ccf_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt; Could someone tell me if it is necessary to follow these instructions to
<BR>&gt; subscribe to The JTAS.
<BR>
<BR>Hmmm.
<BR>
<BR>The JTAS group on Yahoo! is mostly just for announcements of new
<BR>content in the real Journal of the Traveller's Aid Society. I've never seen
<BR>it used for anything else.
<BR>
<BR>If you want to subscribe to JTAS itself - the actual webzine currently
<BR>run by Steve Jackson Games - you can go to http://jtas.sjgames.com/ .
<BR>There are samples of content that you can look at before deciding
<BR>whether you want to subscribe or not, and I believe you can actually
<BR>subscribe using a link from that page.
<BR>
<BR>Enjoy.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_177.cae8ad7.2a847ccf_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 20:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  8 19:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Stripmime
Message-ID: <B97873B1.69033%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Someone on the TML kindly modified Stripmime to allow messages without a
content type to get posted on the list (A fix for Leonard).  If that person
still has a copy, could they please contact me.  I've lost the original tha=
t
you sent me.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 20:20:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  8 19:20:10 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Lawyers should look into this...
Message-ID: <20020809021802.34319.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com>

>Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 16:17:51 -0400
>
>"They envision silent guns"
>
>ok, a gauss rifle

Where did you get your silent gauss rifle?  The bullets in mine
always make a boom as they break the sound barrier.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 20:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Thu Aug  8 19:24:03 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <001a01c23f4b$b6502d00$7400a8c0@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Timothy Little" <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 11:33 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE


> richard honeycutt wrote:

> > As all hydroponics would be underground, there would also be huge
> > power requirements just to grow the food.
>
> That's not a problem, even if you do decide to abandon the surface.
> Traveller fusion power is *really* cheap.  A megawatt would cost no
> more than Cr10/week.  It would certainly take much less power than a
> megawatt per person to grow food.
>
> In fact, it takes less than a hundred kilowatts per person at current
> tech without any concern for energy efficiency.  Yes, that's including
> light input.

All fine and dandy. Basically your position is that due to the ready
availability of cheap fusion power and the relatively small volume of
interstellar trade, an isolated system is still essentially self-sufficient
in most circumstances. Fair enough.

However, the original post on this 'Failed World' topic was regarding their
prevalence in TNE. Battle Damage to infrastructure during Hard Times would
certainly cause short term (i.e. a few years) stress on a systems self
sufficiency. Parts designed with hundred or thousand year lifetimes (i.e.
major structural elements of Domed Cities etc) might require specialist
technology not available locally. The lack of external trade would hinder
efforts to obtain this technology (or replacement parts), which would not be
apparent in regular trading figures. Then Virus hits and suddenly your cheap
ubiquitous fusion reactors are... well... 'not operating to nominal
specification' probably sums it up best... neither is your life support.

If your planet is not capable of sustaining life without TL9+ tech (maybe
even as low as TL5+. Most airless rockballs won't have handy reserves of
fossil fuels...) then you are in trouble. And the numerous deaths that arise
are likely to take out the people most capable of repairing or redirecting
technology early on, as they will likely be the first to respond to the
numerous extremely hazardous emergencies that arise, with often fatal
consequences.

So, already stressed LS and Power supplies become actively hostile and
malignant. Help will not be coming from outside (any ship arriving is likely
to make a very abnormal re-entry... 'death-diving' into cities etc) and no
chance to escape off-planet either, unless you want to risk plunging back to
the ground in a Terminal fashion of having a very close encounter with
either the local star or vacuum. Rioting, looting, and hysteria will do even
more damage...

High TL is a wonderful thing for supporting billions of people in comfort on
otherwise inhospitable environments... but when your high TL *is* the
inhospitable environment you need to get as far away from it as possible.
And a billion shopworkers and accountants don't make the best farmers...
especially when your harvesting machinery is trying to eat you... witness
the end of Dulinor...

Matt






From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 20:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Burns)
Date: Thu Aug  8 19:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] 100 ton scout ship?
Message-ID: <20020809023547.29492.qmail@web10605.mail.yahoo.com>

On Thu, 08 Aug 2002 11:48:52 -0700 (PDT)
Bernie McGeehan wrote:


> I found this while flipping through the pages of
> Space.com....Vilani contact teams in Illinois?

"Well judging from the dimensions and estimated weight
I believe it is in fact the padded shipping container
for one Imperial Type S Scout/Courier. This just goes
to prove my suspicion that all UFO sightings and
contacts are with extraterrestial waste management
units. The requisite occasional abduction and testing
is to determine if we can finally be classified as a
hazardous waste sight so they can start dumping the
really nasty stuff. Watch the skies! The junk is out
there!" :)

On Thu, 8 Aug 2002 22:22:46 +0200
Jens Rydholm wrote:

Meanwhile, I played around a bit with the URL. Try
this one instead.

http://www.space.com/php/multimedia/imagedisplay/img_display.php?pic=h_black_trihigh_02,0.jpg&cap=All%20your%20base%20are%20belong%20to%20us

Note to self: Don't make web pages that have this
bug/feature.

"LOL That is just too funny! I suppose the nice thing
to do would be to tell them ;) perhaps in a creative
and fun way ;) like an anonymous e-mail with a "link"
to their article." :)

Dan "far-trader" Burns

still looking for 'the' definitive .sig file




______________________________________________________________________ 
Post your ad for free now! http://personals.yahoo.ca

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 20:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  8 19:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Lawyers should look into this...
Message-ID: <200208090248.MJH00974@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Glenn M. Goffin" says
>Where did you get your silent gauss rifle?  The bullets in 
>mine always make a boom as they break the sound barrier.

Actually, I've fired quite a few rifle rounds with a 
suppressor - the crack is noticeable - but depending on where 
you are downrange, it may be impossible to localize the 
source of the firing.  The crack is heard as the round passes 
you by - if the round misses far to the right of you, you 
will hear the sound to your right, even if the shooter is 
nowhere to the right.  

More of a snapping sound in most cases - a light cracking.  
For people not familiar with the sound at all, it may or may 
not be identified as gunfire.

I would be that the gauss rifle would sound like this, except 
that the sound from the firing point would be non-existent.
________________
It is impossible to travel faster than 
the speed of light and certainly not 
desirable, as ones hat keeps falling 
off...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 21:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu Aug  8 20:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] 100 ton scout ship?
In-Reply-To: <3D52EBE3.1030401@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020809030206.EC91C2793F@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/08/02 at 03:08 PM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
said:

>Thing wrote:

> > 
>http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/black_triangle_020805.htm
> >  l

>Just a quick email note. If you enclose your url's in <> brackets,
>most capable email clients will recognize and assemble even multiline
>url's properly.

>http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/black_triangle_020805.htm
>l

>Will most likely give a 404 error, but

><http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/black_triangle_020805.html>

>usually will work, even if it's broken over two lines

Usually, perhaps, but not always. Mine doesn't.

Eris

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 21:05:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Thu Aug  8 20:05:30 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <20020806203758.D28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEOIEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

Terry Carlino wrote:
>
>> Part of the point would be to force ships attempting to traverse the
>> area to slow down, use sensors and weapons to clear the mine
>> field. This alone would make them detectable to opposing craft.
>
>I've not found detection of enemy craft to be much of a problem in my
>test-bed runs.  Usually the side with mines controls the system, sees
>the jump flash of any intruder, and can track everything they
>subsequently do.
>
>Maybe I'm just lacking battle experience against other people.  Is
>avoiding detection by the defender a possibility in most people's
>scenarios?
>
>
>- Tim

I guess a lot depends on the tactical conditions. If the system is only
moderately inhabited, with a small defense force an attacker may try a close
in jump and an immediate engagement with the enemy, especially if the
attacking fleet has battle riders and can synchronize their jumps (so that
all ship arrive at effectively the same time.) They may try to overwhelm the
defender.

If jumps cannot be synchronized then an attacking fleet is going to want to
come in far outside the 100 D limit where there is not likely to be a
defending fleet.

In the first case the defenders will see the jump flash, and probably be
able to follow the attackers from then on, especially if the have many
enhanced sensor stations spread throughout near space. In the second case
they will see the flash and know something's coming, but it still might take
days for the attacker's units to form up and weeks for them to actually
attack. How long can your forces stay on high alert before they start to
lose their edge?  Especially when there are dozens of flashes every day for
a week.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 21:12:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  8 20:12:10 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Lawyers should look into this...
In-Reply-To: <20020809021802.34319.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020808200720.009fabd0@mindspring.com>

At 07:18 PM 8/8/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 16:17:51 -0400
> >
> >"They envision silent guns"
> >
> >ok, a gauss rifle
>
>Where did you get your silent gauss rifle?  The bullets in mine
>always make a boom as they break the sound barrier.

Most of the sound associated with weapons fire is the sound of the powder 
going off.  The crack of the bullet is negligible.  For example, a silenced 
.22LR is nearly silent in operation.

A 4mm gauss round would make a high pitched *crack* audible only to those 
near the flight path.


-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Some people have told me they don't think a fat penguin
really embodies the grace of Linux, which just tells me
they have never seen an angry penguin charging at them
in excess of 100 mph. They'd be a lot more careful about
what they say if they had. - Linus Torvalds




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 21:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  8 20:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEOGEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEOGEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <m3k7n0d7ru.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Terry Carlino" <carlino@cox.net> writes:
>
> Alexander the great succeeded to the thrown at the age of twenty.  By
> the time he was 32 he controlled nearly the entire known world, at
> least as known to him. 

> I see her as reading Sun Tsu by age nine and Machiavelli by age
> twelve.  If she were a prodigy she could have been an ensign by age
> 18 or 20.  Francis Drake was a ships captain at the age of twenty,
> and already a legendary privateer at that time.

> The U.S. Naval Academy (the original one at Philadelphia not the one
> at Annapolis) was founded because young officers (who were trained
> aboard ship as midshipmen as described in the Hornblower novels)
> rebelled and Navy leaders wanted them to have a more formal
> education, which included more stringent discipline in a more
> controlled setting.

> If officers of Arbellatra's time were trained in the fleet, instead
> of on planet at an academy, then she could have been an officer
> while still in her teens.  If ships and fleets were personally
> raised by nobles, then if she showed herself competent or her family
> had enough money she could very well have been a captain while still
> in her twenties.  Such a fleet would be more loyal to the people who
> raised it than to the Imperium, or at least to the Emperor.

> I like her young age.  It fits in well with a more age of sail feel
> for the setting during this time.

_Exactly_.  Selections quoted for reiterative effect.  You've hit it
in a nutshell.

As a matter of fact, I am unconvinced that the modern
`generalist-to-18' model is long for this world.  I think that as
technology &c. progress further and further the great minds (as
opposed to the great masses) will more and more be schooled in their
subjects from the earliest age.  Particle physics at 4, advanced
quantum physics at 6, <whatever-replaces-it> at 10, and so on until
one has absorbed the entire history, progression and founding of one's
field.  It's rapidly becoming apparent that four years of college are
not enough; master's or doctoral work is necessary to truly _grok_ a
subject (and I write this as one without a master's or a doctorate).

The only workable solution, given that children of an early age are
not properly testable, is a system of like-father-like-son.  Which,
fortunately enough, ties into mankind's proclivities enough that it'll
probably work out nicely enough.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
America may be unique in being a country which has leapt from barbarism
to decadence without touching civilisation.               --John O'Hara

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 22:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Aug  8 21:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] getting rid of a body (was Re: Yes PM)
In-Reply-To: <200208050251.MBX00823@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20808.205731.7y1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson says
> <snip the drawbacks of the various ways>
> I still think my method of lime, sulfur, and water works 
> rather well - I remember the demonstration we received with a 
> pig carcass - the bones and teeth were gone after a week 
> underground with the mixture.
>
> If you're lucky, and you work near a steel mill, there are 
> tanks where they recycle the sulfuric acid - they keep it at 
> about 18 M.  Drop someone in that (watch the splash) and 
> there won't be anything left.  The recycling process will 
> take care of the impurities.

Actually, thee are body parts (fats and things like gallstones) that
can survive that. So can *fillings*.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 03:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 02:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <m3sn1p7yq7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <m3sn1p7yq7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020809190630.A3949@freeman.little-possums.net>

Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> You can feed a man on 2 1/2 acres?  What would you be planting?

That's not quite the statement I made, since I was talking more like
100 farms of 100 hectares feeding ten thousand.  Your question implies
a single farm feeding one person who has to look after it all
themselves with small-scale tools.

With that qualification in mind, just about anything.  Each person
needs to eat about 0.3 tonnes per year of a balanced diet.


A potato crop of 30-40 tonnes per hectare is normal.  Cereal crops
tend to yield 3-5 tonnes per hectare.  Legumes typically yield 2-3
tonnes of edible produce per hectare.  Apples often yield 30 tonnes
per hectare.

Grain-fed meat animals typically eat about 15-20 times their dressed
carcass mass during growth, so about 0.2 tonnes per hectare including
both crops and feedlot space.  Farmed fish seem to do better, at about
3-5 times their mass of fillets in feed, for about 1 edible tonne per
year inclusive of feed.


You could devote 30% of the crop capacity to feed meat animals, 15% to
dairy animals and egg-laying chickens, 5% to fish, 10% to cereals for
human consumption, 10% to potatoes or similar basic staples, 10% to
legumes of various varieties, 5% for fruits such as apples, and 15% to
various other items that I haven't thought of yet.

With that mix, on average per hectare per day you could expect:

220 g of red meat
130 g of fish
260 g of eggs
1.4 L of milk
50 g of butter
1.4 kg of cereal products
6.8 kg of potatoes (!)
550 g of peas, beans, or lentils
4.1 kg of apples (or other fruits)

If you don't think this is enough to support a person for a day, you
*really* need to go on a diet ;)

Naturally, I'm not a dietician and the percentages were just plucked
out of the air.  Feel free to change them.  In particular, you should
reallocate heaps of area from human-edible produce to other purposes;
people don't need to eat anywhere near that much.

The yields themselves were *not* plucked out of the air, they were
gathered and cross-checked from various agricultural reports while I
should have been building a document control system today.


I'm actually rather surprised: my original estimate was based on just
eyeballing Tasmania's map and guessing how much of it feeds Tasmania's
population.  It looks like my original estimate of 1 hectare per
person was grossly high.  Based on these firmer and more authoritative
figures, 0.2 hectares per person should suffice.

And remember, this is all based on *current* technology, and with
little economic incentive for high yields per unit area of land.
(Ongoing expenses are far more significant than land values)

By TL15 you can almost certainly synthesize everything you need,
including getting the texture just right.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 03:08:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 02:08:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <3D53003A.1070102@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D53003A.1070102@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020809190742.B3949@freeman.little-possums.net>

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> You can't compare these, and which model is correct depends on which
> rule set you use.

Isn't this a bit deplorable, considering that they're all meant to be
describing the same universe?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 03:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 02:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020808214249.025e5ec8@192.168.0.1>
References: <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <m3sn1p7yq7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20020808214249.025e5ec8@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020809190909.C3949@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> As to what they grow to get that yield, there are things that will
>do it,

Yes, just about anything will do it.  You don't need to resort to
algae.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 03:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  9 02:12:03 2002
Subject: Growing Food (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization)
In-Reply-To: <20020809014903.25005.59602.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17d5nW-0004bi-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>) wrote:

> Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:
> > 
> > That's broken.  An average hectare per person assigned to food
> > production is ample even with current technology and without trying
> > hard.  Tech level 15 should be able to do *much* better.
> 
> You can feed a man on 2 1/2 acres?  What would you be planting?

Lots of stuff.  Soybeans, rice, and various greens and root veggies 
should work at that size.  IIRC, that's also enough room to do for   
to do high density carp ponds where the fish are feed agricultural 
waste.  There are lots of high density farming options, and I believe 
the minimums are actually more like 1.5-2 acres person.  OTOH, 
you can't grow beef or pretty much any meat other than carp at 
that density.  

Also, if you are willing to do hydroponics you can do multiple levels 
hydroponic trays.  With 1.5 meters between vertically stacked 
trays, you could grow 2.5 acres of food in a 1.5 acre warehouse 
that was 3 meters tall and still have space to harvest everything.    

Finally, I'm guessing vat meat will be no more than TL 11 and that's 
likely not going to take much space at all.  

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 03:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 02:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Stripmime
In-Reply-To: <B97873B1.69033%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B97873B1.69033%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020809191300.D3949@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> Someone on the TML kindly modified Stripmime to allow messages without a
> content type to get posted on the list (A fix for Leonard).

That would be me.  Locating and sending it now.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 03:31:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 02:31:13 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <001a01c23f4b$b6502d00$7400a8c0@matt>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <001a01c23f4b$b6502d00$7400a8c0@matt>
Message-ID: <20020809193011.F3949@freeman.little-possums.net>

Matthew Bond wrote:
> Basically your position is that due to the ready availability of
> cheap fusion power and the relatively small volume of interstellar
> trade, an isolated system is still essentially self-sufficient in
> most circumstances. Fair enough.

I'm saying they don't even need cheap fusion power.  Solar insolation
is good enough.


> However, the original post on this 'Failed World' topic was regarding their
> prevalence in TNE.

Actually, the original post was:
  >> How serious is the trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took place
  >> because the small island of England was not self-sufficient in either
  >> agricultural or industrial matters, but I don't think this situation
  >> will arise on many _planets_.  
  >
  > cough cough
  >        How many dinky airless rockballs with large populations do the world 
  > generation rules permit? 

Unless you mean this one:
  >         I know that they won't starve. Out of curiosity, I decided to work out what 
  > might happen though. 

In both cases, it was purely the isolation effect that we were
considering, not any active bombardment or aggressive forces.

In particular, I am not remotely interested in any effects based on
particular aspects of the TNE setting history.  If you want to know
more about my opinion on that subject, search the archives.  I will
elaborate no further.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 03:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 02:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEOIEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <20020806203758.D28821@freeman.little-possums.net> <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEOIEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20020809193421.G3949@freeman.little-possums.net>

Terry Carlino wrote:
> In the second case they will see the flash and know something's
> coming, but it still might take days for the attacker's units to
> form up and weeks for them to actually attack.

Are you saying that the tracking systems will lose them in the
meantime?  That may be so, but surely the attacker must form their
plans based on the probability that they are still being tracked?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christian K)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Lawyers should look into this...
References: <200208090248.MJH00974@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <002801c23f8c$4e3199c0$0664a8c0@bigdarkone>

From: "John T. Kwon"
> "Glenn M. Goffin" says
> >Where did you get your silent gauss rifle?  The bullets in
> >mine always make a boom as they break the sound barrier.
> Actually, I've fired quite a few rifle rounds with a
> suppressor - the crack is noticeable - but depending on where
> you are downrange, it may be impossible to localize the
> source of the firing.  The crack is heard as the round passes
> you by - if the round misses far to the right of you, you
> will hear the sound to your right, even if the shooter is
> nowhere to the right.
> I would be that the gauss rifle would sound like this, except
> that the sound from the firing point would be non-existent.
Actually a Suppressor works by slowing bullets under soundspeed so they
don't break the soundbarrier. So considering the tremendous high speed on
wich a Gaussgun relies to get its punch it would be more or less sensless to
slow it down. And since laser are Loud as Hell if you want silent weaps use
em in HardVac or chemical supressed ones. (or MagAccel with low speeds)

my two cents ;)

Chris



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: COMET BUSTERS
Message-ID: <eg57lukcjjik00lqt50t7684vf8f6anab3@4ax.com>

I sent you email requesting a real name to attach to Comet Busters, as
Freelance Traveller policy is to have either a real name (preferred) or a
plausible pseudonym (allowed on a case-by-case basis, liberal decision
criteria) attached to an article, and Comet Busters is definitely worth
seeing in Freelance Traveller.  Do I assume from lack of reply that you are
_not_ interested in seeing it there?



Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture 
Enterprises, 1977-2000.  Use of the trademark in 
this notice and in the referenced materials is not 
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.freelancetraveller.com
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
editor@freelancetraveller.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <p04330103b9720a71cb73@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20809.011127.5m5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> It seemed a good deal.  You aren't first into battle (you aren't any 
> more likely to get killed since the unfrozen guys get killed first) 
> and you don't have to deal with boredom between battles.  Odds are 
> you sign up, get frozen, and wake up with all your pay waiting for 
> you.

Unless you missed the clause in the contract that calculates your
"term" by the time you spend *thawed*. Mind you, it's legal, because
you *do* get paid for the frozen time, though at a lower rate.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:26:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:26:31 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <011801c23adc$bdd0f780$1d17bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <20809.024856.2h6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>
>> >Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
>>  >big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.
>>
>> What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other sensor
> systems
>> you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?
>
>
> Mines, even of a CAPTOR type, don't have much area coverage. You'd need a
> lot of them to cover an area, though orbits and other choke points are a
> possibility.

There's always the "nuclear shotgun" approach. 

Basicly, a nuke that is being used to convery something (styrofoam
works!) into a plasma to push a bunch of projectiles. 

Someone posted a design on rec.arts.sf.science years back, and I copied
it here. 

The basic idea is that you get a conical (or spherical, though conical
is more efficient) of fractional c BBs. 

This can make life very hazardous throughout a *large* volume. 

Is that a commsat, a chunk of scrap from a battle, or a mine? And can
you afford the time to avoid coming within the mutiple *thousand* km
kill range of all such objects in approaching a planet?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:27:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:27:01 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <133.124edb2b.2a7daff5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20809.025428.5B0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>  >> What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other 
>  >> sensor systems 
>  >> you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?
>  >
>  >I recommend you read Bruce Alan Macintosh's Definitive Sensor Rules for 
>  >T4/FF&S2 for a complete discussion of sensors.  Passive sensors IRL 
>  >would have ranges in space significanly better than those of active 
>  >sensors such as radar.
>  >
>  >http://traveller.mu.org/house/sensor.rules.html
>
> Great site, thanks.  But using this it looks like mines are right out.  I 
> wish it were so easy to detect incoming asteroids and meteors in RL.

It *is*. Bruce based the figures on *real world* sensors.

The trick is that being above the atmosphere makes a *big* difference.

Currently we have three sorts of sensors available for that. 

1. large area sensors under an atmosphere.
2. Small area wide-field sensors in satellites. 
3. larger area narrow field sensors in a couple of satellites

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:27:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:27:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Firearms in Vacumn
In-Reply-To: <3D4BD8C7.43D0D0AA@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20809.030247.9k4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> 
>>
>> >>
>> >> Do you still have any copies of The Model Rocketeer? Mine got lost a
>> >> long time ago :-(
>> >
>> > I think so, I'll have a look next time I'm cleaning that part of the 
> garage.
>> > Anything in particular
>> > or do you want that article on underwater launches?
>> 
>> Well, I'd like to have a set of the silly things, or at least a decent
>> scan of them.
>> 
>
> Leonard, I don't mind scanning a few articles, but we're talking YEARS of 
> issues(14 IIRC). I don't
> have the time to scan them all, nor the inclination to give them up. I will 
> however look for that
> article.

Don't bother. That one I remember, and it doesn't have that much of
interest to me. 

It's all the stuff I *don't* recall that I miss. Some nice technical
articles, some songs, all sorts of other stuff that I probably don't
recall right now.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:27:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:27:54 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <E17bJb8-0007Wi-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20809.031047.1I2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>
>> In mail you write:
>> 
>>> Time-Travel is a huge no-no. Do I have something against it? Yes and
>>> no. It's entertaining and fascinating to speculate on, but it would
>>> seriously unbalance a campaign. I also like the idea that
>>> consequences of one's actions are irreversable...Time Travel far too
>>> often gives one an out to correct mistakes.
>> 
>> Well, the theoretical work that physicists have done on the
>> possibility of time travel in the real world says that two things will
>> be true if it's possible:
>> 
>> 1. You can't travel back before the instant the machione is first
>>    activated.
>> 
>> 2. You can't alter the past. You'd have free will to the exact extent
>>    that you *don't* know what happened. 
>
> Actually, from what I've read, those are only true *if* causality is 
> always preserved.  If it is possible to utterly toss causality out the 
> window, then time travel can involve whatever you want.  It's 
> interesting to me that preservation of causality seems something 
> almost all phyicists assume to be true w/o having any absolute 
> necessity that the world actually operates this way.  We haven't 
> seen any obvious causality violations, but until last century we also 
> never saw any obvious relativistic effects.  Personally, I think the 
> universe would be a considerably more interesting (in all possible 
> meanings of this word) place is causality is not strictly preserved.

Actuallity, there are two kinds of causality. If local causality is
preserved, then time travel isn't possible at all.

If *local* causality isn't preserved, but global causality is, then you
get the situation I described.

If global causality isn't preserved, then you can have effects without
causes and a number of other things. And they basicly make hash of the
very *idea* of there being natural laws. Which is why scientists are so
reluctant to accept causality violations. 

Causality is *very* basic. 

ps. What I described *also* requires that relativity hold. 

You can have any two out of the following three:

local causality
relativity
FTL

If relativity holds, FTL *is* time travel.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Lawyers should look into this...
Message-ID: <200208091057.MJX01100@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Christian K" says
>Actually a Suppressor works by slowing bullets under 
>soundspeed so they don't break the soundbarrier.

Only in certain weapons.  In rifles, they only reduce the 
apparent sound of the weapon itself (reducing or altering the 
gas expansion sound impulse).  The bullet itself is not 
intended to be reduced in velocity.

The quietest weapons are designed with a subsonic round 
(ideally, a bullet that is just below the speed of sound).  
But they have the shortest range.

>And since laser are Loud as Hell

I've heard an Avco industrial laser in operation - the only 
sound was the power conditioning - I didn't hear any sound 
from the beam.

________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:59:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:59:28 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <20809.031047.1I2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <E17bJb8-0007Wi-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3D54490D.22627.620186C@localhost>

On 9 Aug 2002, at 3:10, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> You can have any two out of the following three:

> local causality
> relativity
> FTL

> If relativity holds, FTL *is* time travel.

Try this for an interesting take on things

http://www.discover.com/june_02/featuniverse.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:59:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:59:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: COMET BUSTERS
Message-ID: <200208091058.MJX01143@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Jeff Zeitlin <editor@freelancetraveller.com>  
>I sent you email requesting a real name to attach to Comet 
>Busters...


I think this is for someone else...
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 05:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 04:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
Message-ID: <200208091101.MJX01284@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson
>Causality is *very* basic. 


Wheeler has shown that there is no proof that causality is a 
requirement of this universe as a basic law.  It makes a nice 
thought, but by no means is it a requirement.

The two-slit experiment, played out over interstellar 
distances, or even across a tabletop in a lab, was shown in 
1987 to indicate that causality is violated on a regular 
basis.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 05:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 04:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Stripmime
In-Reply-To: <B97873B1.69033%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20809.034100.0C2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Someone on the TML kindly modified Stripmime to allow messages without a
> content type to get posted on the list (A fix for Leonard).  If that person
> still has a copy, could they please contact me.  I've lost the original that
> you sent me.

If it runs on Intel family CPUs under DOS, Windoze, or OS/2, I'd be
interested in a copy..

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 05:34:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 04:34:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Professor Barker??
In-Reply-To: <000601c23c02$0d81b280$08984c51@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <20809.042448.8M6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>>Depart now and you forever separate
>>>yourselves from the vital gaming legacies of James Dunnigan,
>>>Steve Jackson, Gary Gygax, Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank
>>>Chadwick, Andrew Keith, William Keith, John Harshman,
>>>Professor Barker, and Richard Tucholka.
>>
>>Professor Barker {?} info please.
>>
>>Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
>
> Empire of the Petal Throne!
>
> It was a early D&D derivative by the above mentioned prof.
>
> It had a very oriental feel with him having a background in linguistics (and
> it counted as sci-fi due to the strange background history... Humans and
> other aliens try to terraform a planet, much to the anoyance of it
> inhabitants, entire solar system disappears into a void, leaving everybody
> up the creak, a few thousand years regression (theres no iron on planet!)
> and alternate cultural development  later and enter the PCs.
>
> It spawn numerous expansions, and two  novels bu M.A.R. Barker himself.
>
> Major prob with this world? pronouncing the words! He did a Tolkien and
> created his own languages and scripts.

There are fonts available for the main alphabet (Ev-something), and
there's even unicode space reserved for it.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 05:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Aug  9 04:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <200208091101.MJX01284@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D5452F6.32566.646D18B@localhost>

On 9 Aug 2002, at 7:01, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Leonard Erickson
> >Causality is *very* basic. 

> Wheeler has shown that there is no proof that causality is a 
> requirement of this universe as a basic law.  It makes a nice 
> thought, but by no means is it a requirement.

Not quite. If I understand Wheeler correctly, causality is not violated as 
such (cause still precedes effect). Its just cause is not determined until the 
effect is observed.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 05:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christian K)
Date: Fri Aug  9 04:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lawyers should look into this...
References: <200208091057.MJX01100@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <006601c23f9b$9abfb150$0664a8c0@bigdarkone>

From: "John T. Kwon"
> Only in certain weapons.  In rifles, they only reduce the
> apparent sound of the weapon itself (reducing or altering the
> gas expansion sound impulse).  The bullet itself is not
> intended to be reduced in velocity.
You're absolutely right there my mistake i didn't make clear that it only
applys to certain weapons.


<snip>
> >And since laser are Loud as Hell
>
> I've heard an Avco industrial laser in operation - the only
> sound was the power conditioning - I didn't hear any sound
> from the beam.
Well ok sofar as my Physiks prof told me and  i did some research in it. A
High powered laser.. (not the ones used for cutting they are actually fairly
low powered in comparison) well the lasers we have in GT that is fir a
milisecond impulse off realy high power. According to what i read so far a
short recently high and hot powered lasershot would heat the air it passes
threw and in its wake even could create a vacum. The air popping back would
make a sound more like a plopp and by far nothing a bullet sounds like but
it wouldn't been the SF Film screech and it wouldn't been silent. Just some
kind off sound recently high powered laser would make more/louder sounds due
to more superheated ionized or whatever that word in english is Air.

Thats what i read so far... i could be completele wrong here since i'm not a
Physiks prof or teacher or something like that but for me it sounded
sensefull.

Chris



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 06:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Aug  9 05:18:02 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <001a01c23f4b$b6502d00$7400a8c0@matt> <20020809193011.F3949@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt>

Timothy Little wrote:
> Matthew Bond wrote:
>> However, the original post on this 'Failed World' topic was
>> regarding their prevalence in TNE.
>
> Actually, the original post was:
>   >> How serious is the trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took
> place   >> because the small island of England was not self-
> sufficient in either   >> agricultural or industrial matters, but I
> don't think this situation   >> will arise on many _planets_.
>   >
>   > cough cough
>   >        How many dinky airless rockballs with large populations do
> the world   > generation rules permit?
>
> Unless you mean this one:
>   >         I know that they won't starve. Out of curiosity, I
> decided to work out what   > might happen though.
>
> In both cases, it was purely the isolation effect that we were
> considering, not any active bombardment or aggressive forces.
>
> In particular, I am not remotely interested in any effects based on
> particular aspects of the TNE setting history.  If you want to know
> more about my opinion on that subject, search the archives.  I will
> elaborate no further.

Actually I was referring to the immediately prior post in the tread, by
Flykiller@aol.com...

[Quote]
>> How
 >> serious is the trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took place
because
 >> the small island of England was not self-sufficient in either
agricultural
 >> or industrial matters, but I don't think this situation will arise on
many
 >> _planets_.  If trade is truly a major issue and lifeline then a massed
herd
 >> of raiders will be crippling regardless of any other fleet elements
 >> employed.  But I think most planets with populations sufficient to have
 >> significant trade connections will have huge internal capacites to
produce
 >> what they need anyway, and huge reserves of whatever they have to import
 >> (consider our Strategic Oil Reserve).
 >
 >If planets are so self sufficient, then why does TNE describe planets
failing
 >because they were cut off from interstellar trade?

Don't know.  Doesn't make much sense to me.  I can see it happening here and
there of course, but not en masse.  TNE may state it, but that's not
necessarily a reason to just swallow it.
_______________________________________________

[/Quote]

This post does mention TNE.

Your arguement was that irrespective of trade all planets can (perhaps even
'must') be self sufficient. That may well be the case under normal
circumstances. In the TNE setting things were not 'normal' at the time of
the failure of these worlds.

Thats all I'm saying... given sufficient stress to the system (irrespective
of which particular Traveller setting you use), you can Fail any planet that
isn't capable of supporting life without TL9+ intervention.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 06:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Aug  9 05:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020809190909.C3949@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020808214249.025e5ec8@192.168.0.1>
 <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
 <02080313391901.00601@linux>
 <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <02080817101100.00601@linux>
 <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <m3sn1p7yq7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020808214249.025e5ec8@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020809081548.00ce0780@192.168.0.1>

At 07:09 PM 8/9/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
> > As to what they grow to get that yield, there are things that will
> >do it,
>Yes, just about anything will do it.  You don't need to resort to
>algae.

The algae came to mind quickly because it's such a complete food source, 
and easy to grow in non-ag situations.

It wasn't worth my time to dig out more complete data on the subject.
Thanks for providing it.

To sum up, the higher the tech level, the easier it will be on rockballs to 
survive independently.
Higher tech level rockballs (one that sustain their own TL C+ industry) 
will have no problems supporting large populations food wise.
Lower tech level rockballs can do it, it will take more effort, space, etc.
Easier to do if you just worry about feeding them, less so, but doable, if 
you want a diverse diet.

If you start kicking the support functions of their civilization (for what 
ever reason), they will have problems of varying degrees.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 06:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 05:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT:  December ARPC shoot
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020807104836.009f6c50@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20809.052524.8r5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 04:58 PM 8/6/02 -0700, you wrote:
>>Good to hear!  I'm desperately going to try to make it up again finally, 
>>as the financial situation has improved a little.  Providing of course 
>>that I can get a new roomate and don't have to keep paying twice the rent 
>>like I am now :(  Also, I'm going to invite Erin again, and maybe I can 
>>get my "girlfriend" to go too ;)
>
> I too, shall try to make it up.  I'll be at OryCon the week before that (as 
> Gaming GOH, if you can believe that, so unless you can give me rifde, no 
> way I can afford to fly twice in that length of time.

No, Orycon is *two* weeks before the shoot 11/22-11/24. Says so on the
form I still have to mail in!

> -- 
>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
>
> "I'm just trying to evict them. Frogs never pay."
>                              - Rose Platt
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 06:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew W. Helton)
Date: Fri Aug  9 05:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Lawyers should look into this...
In-Reply-To: <002801c23f8c$4e3199c0$0664a8c0@bigdarkone>
Message-ID: <000001c23fa4$024d9320$fd00a8c0@sulaco>

Christian,

		Muzzle suppressors do nothing to slow the projectile:
they are merely a device to cool and slow the propellant the gasses to
reduce the report.

	There are types of integral suppressors (Sten MKIIs, Sterling
MKV/L34A1, MP5SD5) which do bleed some of the high pressure gasses from
the barrel itself into the suppressor while the projectile is still in
the bore. These suppressors do not require special subsonic ammunition
in order for truly silenced shooting.

				Best,

					Matthew W. Helton


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 07:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  9 06:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Do I have to Yahoo! ?
Message-ID: <155.122f2469.2a851759@aol.com>

>Could someone tell me if it is necessary to follow these instructions to
>subscribe to The JTAS
>
>John Scarlett

John,

All you have to do is go to <http://jtas.sjgames.com/> 

and click on "Subscribe" then follow the directions.

You can look at a sample issue without subscribing if you like. 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 07:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 06:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
Message-ID: <200208091312.MKB02981@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance" says
>Not quite. If I understand Wheeler correctly, causality is 
>not violated as such (cause still precedes effect). Its just 
>cause is not determined until the effect is observed.

the problem is that the nature of the observation will force 
a photon to the left or the right - an observation that is 
taken perhaps a billion years after the photon departed. 
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 08:22:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Aug  9 07:22:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
Message-ID: <F24qs1wP7vvqgqGTwgT0000593c@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     The current Frontier Wars thread has given me an excuse to post a 
little something.  Besides, it sure beats having Finster carom rocks off my 
old grey pate (You know, for a three-year-old, that little SOB sure has a 
great arm.  He nailed me with a rock at a good 25 feet yesterday.  If he 
ever gets his hands on any firearms, we'll have to change his name to 
Ditzie.)
     To my addled mind, Zho strategy over the last 6 centuries has been 
pretty simple; deflect Imperial expansion away from the Consulate and 
stabilize the border.  After looking at the maps, even before the Zhos got 
their "make-over" from mind-rapers to well adjusted psionicists in Late CT, 
this strategy was pretty self evident.
     Oddly enough, this happened to be the Imperial strategy against the 
Alsan!
     The Consulate has been active, albeit thin on the ground, in the 
Marches for quite a long time, certainly from only a few centuries after the 
Darrians had their little "accident". (Did Tanis' odd flares, when viewed 
from a great distance, lure Zho exploration towards the Marches?)
     The Consulate's goals are two-fold; first evict the Imperium from the 
Foreven and Ziafrfplians Sectors and a portion of the Marches, then create a 
Dark Nebula-style buffer zone of small polities to act as a shield.  The 
first goal has been accompished.  The second has been only partially 
completed.
     Inserting the five Frontier Wars into this overall strategic framework 
becomes an easy task:

     First Frontier War - Eviction of Imperial colonies and elimination of 
Imperial client state relationships within Consulate territory.  A Zho 
success.
     Second Frontier War - Continued evictions.  Buffer zone begins to form. 
  A Zho success.
     Third Frontier War - Majority of the buffer zone created.  A Zho 
success.
     Fourth Frontier War - Launched prematurely by local authorities after a 
period increased tensions.  A draw.
     Fifth Frontier War -  An attempt to complete the buffer zone by 
detaching the Jewell subsector and other small slices of Imperial territory. 
  This would continue the buffer zone coreward until it contacted Vargr 
space.

     The Zho's three main offensives fit this idea neatly.  First, they "pin 
down" the Jewels.  Second, a sickle stroke through the Efate region to cut 
the Jewels off.  Third, a deep strike at Rhylanor to gain the war's supreme 
bargaining chip.
     If all had gone well, the Jewels would be slowly ground down by a 
series of planetary seiges, cutoff from the rest of the Imperium by Zho 
forces in the Efate region, and eventually abandoned by the Imperium at the 
negotiation table in return for the Zhodani evacuation of Rhylanor.
     Of course, no plan survives contact with the enemy, but the Consulate's 
hubris can be forgiven.  After all, they had won every Frontier War prior to 
the Fifth.  To paraphrase Moltke, the Consulate planned well, but didn't 
quite plan enough.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 08:24:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Aug  9 07:24:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra, Zhakirov and Antiama
References: <20020730221303.16806.79173.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001701c23fb1$0020b520$5d5d8690@computer>

Ah! I think I've worked out the real reason why I don't think that
Arbellatra was responsible for the marriage of Zhakirov and Antiama.

My objection is not so much the logical problems, which, while they exist,
can be overcome, but actually the dramatic ones.

It's kind of like having Macbeth showing up in Hamlet, and making the plot
happen. Essentially, by giving such an active role to Arbellatra, the story
of Zhakirov and Antiama is weakened.

The backstories of the OTU are, in fact, stories, and dramatic
considerations can and should be taken into account in working out "what
really happened". Where two possible courses are logically possible, the one
that makes the better story should be preferred, IMHO.

YMMV, of course.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 08:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 07:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] cause and effect
Message-ID: <200208091428.MKE00298@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 09:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  9 08:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Lawyers should look into this...
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEELPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
>"Glenn M. Goffin" says
>>Where did you get your silent gauss rifle?  The bullets in
>>mine always make a boom as they break the sound barrier.

[excellent discussion deleted]

>I would be that the gauss rifle would sound like this, except
>that the sound from the firing point would be non-existent.

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>Most of the sound associated with weapons fire is the sound of the powder
>going off.  The crack of the bullet is negligible.  For example, a silenced
>.22LR is nearly silent in operation.
>
>A 4mm gauss round would make a high pitched *crack* audible only to those
>near the flight path.

That works for me.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 09:38:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  9 08:38:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra, Zhakirov and Antiama
In-Reply-To: <001701c23fb1$0020b520$5d5d8690@computer>
References: <20020730221303.16806.79173.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020809080818.009f13d0@mindspring.com>

At 12:27 AM 8/10/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Ah! I think I've worked out the real reason why I don't think that
>Arbellatra was responsible for the marriage of Zhakirov and Antiama.
>
>My objection is not so much the logical problems, which, while they exist,
>can be overcome, but actually the dramatic ones.
>
>It's kind of like having Macbeth showing up in Hamlet, and making the plot
>happen. Essentially, by giving such an active role to Arbellatra, the story
>of Zhakirov and Antiama is weakened.
>
>The backstories of the OTU are, in fact, stories, and dramatic
>considerations can and should be taken into account in working out "what
>really happened". Where two possible courses are logically possible, the one
>that makes the better story should be preferred, IMHO.

I was a bit unclear.  I meant to show that Arbellatra set the stage by 
weakening the Solomani grip on power at the court that had led to the Civil 
War in the first place.  I imagine many nobles were stripped of their 
titles, and those titles passed to others.  She also, IMTU, shook up the 
bureaucracy and made it more effective by elevating Vilani business people 
to positions of authority, complete with the appropriate titles.

Plot hook.  Admiral Arbellatra, Regent of the Imperium, has elevated a 
Vilani sector accountant to Minister of Finance, replacing a corrupt noble 
who held the position previously.  The Duke understands that if his 
dealings are examined, he'll spend the rest of his life on a TL2 exile 
world.  His only hope is to prevent the new Minister from reaching 
Capitial.  The PCs are the Marines and starmen sent to escort the new 
Minister and his family to the Regent.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 09:38:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  9 08:38:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
In-Reply-To: <F24qs1wP7vvqgqGTwgT0000593c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020809081646.009f77c0@mindspring.com>

At 02:21 PM 8/9/02 +0000, you wrote:

My dear Whipsnade..

>     The current Frontier Wars thread has given me an excuse to post a 
> little something.  Besides, it sure beats having Finster carom rocks off 
> my old grey pate (You know, for a three-year-old, that little SOB sure 
> has a great arm.  He nailed me with a rock at a good 25 feet 
> yesterday.  If he ever gets his hands on any firearms, we'll have to 
> change his name to Ditzie.)

I suggest constant suggestions that the young hellion requires an immediate 
bath.  The word bath sets of such a primal flight response in small 
children that I'm covinced that at the dawn of mankind we were hunted by 
some horror whose call was "bath!  baatthh!"  Young Finster  shall spend 
the remainder of the occupation hiding behind the couch, surviving on dust 
bunnies and old hard candies.

>     To my addled mind, Zho strategy over the last 6 centuries has been 
> pretty simple; deflect Imperial expansion away from the Consulate and 
> stabilize the border.  After looking at the maps, even before the Zhos 
> got their "make-over" from mind-rapers to well adjusted psionicists in 
> Late CT, this strategy was pretty self evident.
>     Oddly enough, this happened to be the Imperial strategy against the 
> Alsan!

Good eye!  This is very true of the later ABWs.

>     The Consulate has been active, albeit thin on the ground, in the 
> Marches for quite a long time, certainly from only a few centuries after 
> the Darrians had their little "accident". (Did Tanis' odd flares, when 
> viewed from a great distance, lure Zho exploration towards the Marches?)
>     The Consulate's goals are two-fold; first evict the Imperium from the 
> Foreven and Ziafrfplians Sectors and a portion of the Marches, then 
> create a Dark Nebula-style buffer zone of small polities to act as a 
> shield.  The first goal has been accompished.  The second has been only 
> partially completed.

But can be considered a success.  There have been no Imperial attempts to 
establish colonies in Zhodani space for 700 years.

>     Fifth Frontier War -  An attempt to complete the buffer zone by 
> detaching the Jewell subsector and other small slices of Imperial 
> territory.  This would continue the buffer zone coreward until it 
> contacted Vargr space.
>
>     The Zho's three main offensives fit this idea neatly.  First, they 
> "pin down" the Jewels.  Second, a sickle stroke through the Efate region 
> to cut the Jewels off.  Third, a deep strike at Rhylanor to gain the 
> war's supreme bargaining chip.
>     If all had gone well, the Jewels would be slowly ground down by a 
> series of planetary seiges, cutoff from the rest of the Imperium by Zho 
> forces in the Efate region, and eventually abandoned by the Imperium at 
> the negotiation table in return for the Zhodani evacuation of Rhylanor.
>     Of course, no plan survives contact with the enemy, but the 
> Consulate's hubris can be forgiven.  After all, they had won every 
> Frontier War prior to the Fifth.  To paraphrase Moltke, the Consulate 
> planned well, but didn't quite plan enough.

The also ran into a wild card: Norris.  You can't predict an unexpected 
enemy commander that is a bloody genius and has figured out your plan.  I 
always wondered if Norris' branch of Naval Intelligence hadn't actually 
learned bits and pieces of the Zhodani plan.

The Zho's over-reached themselves, in my opinion.  They didn't properly 
understand the strength of the Imperium's "defense in depth" concept, nor 
the tenacity of local forces.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 09:39:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  9 08:39:04 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Lawyers should look into this...
In-Reply-To: <200208090248.MJH00974@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020809082853.009ea2a0@mindspring.com>

At 10:48 PM 8/8/02 -0400, you wrote:
>"Glenn M. Goffin" says
> >Where did you get your silent gauss rifle?  The bullets in
> >mine always make a boom as they break the sound barrier.
>
>Actually, I've fired quite a few rifle rounds with a
>suppressor - the crack is noticeable - but depending on where
>you are downrange, it may be impossible to localize the
>source of the firing.  The crack is heard as the round passes
>you by - if the round misses far to the right of you, you
>will hear the sound to your right, even if the shooter is
>nowhere to the right.

The sound made by a round passing close by is sort of a "thwip"  You only 
hear it when it is close to you, so when crawling through razor-wire at Ft. 
Benning, the 7.62mm rounds being fired above your head sound *damn* 
close.  The loudest sound by far is the weapon itself.

>I would be that the gauss rifle would sound like this, except
>that the sound from the firing point would be non-existent.

*thwip*thwip*thwip*thwip*thwip*thwip*thwip*


-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Animals who are not penguins can only wish they were.
                          -Chicago reader, 10/15/82



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 09:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  9 08:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Arbellatra
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMELPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
>
>As a matter of fact, I am unconvinced that the modern
>`generalist-to-18' model is long for this world.  I think that as
[deletion]
> It's rapidly becoming apparent that four years of college are
>not enough; master's or doctoral work is necessary to truly _grok_ a
>subject (and I write this as one without a master's or a doctorate).
>
>The only workable solution, given that children of an early age are
>not properly testable, is a system of like-father-like-son.  Which,
>fortunately enough, ties into mankind's proclivities enough that it'll
>probably work out nicely enough.

Like-father-like-son destroyed the Roman empire, but that doesn't mean we
won't see it again.  I think that the vast majority of people will always be
generalists, because most of human life requires a general knowledge of how
to do things.  There may very well be some elites that develop a
generational focus on extremely complex subjects, but not everyone by a long
shot.

That's probably what the seneschal class does, and we've never yet had a
character generation system for the seneschal -- probably because there are
no retired seneschals to go adventuring.  They are born into the class,
study all their lives to synthesize, abstract, and communicate vast
quantities of information, and do exactly that until they contract
Alzheimer's and are debriefed in nursing homes.

--Glenn

"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher
a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts,
build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders,
cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure,
program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently and die gallantly.
Specialization is for insects."

-- Robert A. Heinlein


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 09:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  9 08:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEMACEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>
>     The current Frontier Wars thread has given me an excuse to post a
>little something.  Besides, it sure beats having Finster carom rocks off my

[excellent analysis deleted]
>
  >  Fifth Frontier War -  An attempt to complete the buffer zone by
>detaching the Jewell subsector and other small slices of Imperial
territory.
>  This would continue the buffer zone coreward until it contacted Vargr
>space.
>
>     The Zho's three main offensives fit this idea neatly.  First, they
"pin
>down" the Jewels.  Second, a sickle stroke through the Efate region to cut
>the Jewels off.  Third, a deep strike at Rhylanor to gain the war's supreme
>bargaining chip.
>     If all had gone well, the Jewels would be slowly ground down by a
>series of planetary seiges, cutoff from the rest of the Imperium by Zho
>forces in the Efate region, and eventually abandoned by the Imperium at the
>negotiation table in return for the Zhodani evacuation of Rhylanor.

Dear Mr. Whipsnade:

I heartily endorse your basic analysis, which must be further evidence for
the common belief that great minds think alike -- er, I mean, that Traveller
players need to get a life -- no wait a bit...

Anyway, if the boardgame of Fifth Frontier War is a good simulation, it is
almost impossible for the Imperial player to avoid losing the Jewells in a
few turns.  The Zhodani player has enough resources to overwhelm the Jewells
and still take the 300 points needed to achieve an automatic victory (not
that it's easy, but it's doable).

So the Jewells would not have to be ground down by planetary sieges.  Jewell
itself is always a battle, but the Mongo National Guard will flee in terror
after some bombing, and Esalin, Emerald, and Ruby have no defense forces to
speak of (those TL 8 motorized infantry on Esalin are more terrified that
the MNG, but can't flee as fast).  Lysen and Grant likewise need only to be
occupied.

One Zhodani fleet should go directly to Jewell for a major space and ground
fight.  Two smaller fleets should take the rest of the cluster (one takes
Emerald and Ruby, the other Mongo and Esalin), then move on to Grant and
Lysen, then head for Regina (which is pretty easy to take).  Phase one is
complete.  Begin processing the captives!

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 10:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 09:28:03 2002
Subject: Growing Food (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization)
In-Reply-To: <E17d5nW-0004bi-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028910449.6838.ajackson@ping>

sneadj@mindspring.com writes:
 
> Lots of stuff.  Soybeans, rice, and various greens and root veggies 
> should work at that size.

Actually, 2.5 acres per person (250 people per square mile) is only a little
over the upper limit of medieval agriculture, assuming 100% arable land (which
is, obviously, a bit unrealistic).  As such, it's really not a challenge for
any TL 5+ world.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 11:09:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug  9 10:09:06 2002
Subject: [TML] test, ignore
Message-ID: <B9794537.690D6%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

This is a test of mime stripping
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 11:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug  9 10:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] test 2, ignore
Message-ID: <B9794A6F.690DF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Another test of MIME stripping
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 11:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug  9 10:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] test3, ignore
Message-ID: <B9794AF5.690E3%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Final MIME test
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 11:50:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Aug  9 10:50:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Macene Landgrab
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHIEMIILAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Little things cast big ripples; in BTC map, Macene is listed as
Depot, and in the description it is listed as the site of the
Spinward Branch of the Fleet Tactics College.  I read this and
the little guy with the pitchfork and the little guy with the
halo who sit on my shoulder started jumping up and down chortling
maniacally.

If someone wants to grab these and post 'em, go ahead


Macene

Macene is still under development and will be for decades but
stands to become Depot Spinward Marches. It is built and sited to
command the flank of any would be Zhodane, Sword Worlds, or Vagyr
incursion into Imperial space; provide, along with Rhylanor, a middle
tier main base between the frontline worlds of Regina and Lanth
and the rear hugging worlds of Aramis and Mara; and force attention
and dilution of effort on itself by any would be attackers.

Currently Macene is home to 9400 Navy personnel and their dependants, not
ship's crews to assigned ships, and the 10041 Engineering Wing who as
members of assigned military combat units are not counted in the population
totals.  By the end of the Holiday year as facilities go on line this
number will grow to 60,000 personnel and their dependants.  In addition, a
Marine Division and various assigned ships will swell this number.

Current plans will be to form Kokirrak Class dreadnaughts, One Demi
Batron from Rhylanor and one from Mora  will be joined to serve
as the core of the assigned fleet.

Planetoid monitors and Brilliant Pebble monitors will form the heart of
the fleet level defenses of the base, freeing mobile elements to counter
attack against enemy fleets
Current facilities

Amber Nine

Amber Nine is the current designation of the current center of operations
for the Navy at Macene.  It houses the SMFTC, the administrative command
for the entire system, housing and quarters for staff, port facilities for
the systems defense fleet.  It, like Frog Two is located within the 100 D
limit of Macene's star. It is scheduled to be officially named Arabella
Base Naval complex during the Holiday year celebrations.

Frog Two

Located opposite from Amber Nine, Frog Two is the headquarters for the
Op force and serves as a listening post and base against any attacks
from the opposite side.

Mnor Quad, Maor Delt

Maor quad is located above the North pole of the star and delt is above the
South pole, they serve as relayy stations

Fargo Station

Fargo Station is the original settlement of Macene,  Currently it is HQ
for the 10041 Fleet Engineering wing which is responsible for all
construction
in system.  Fargo station is also the current location for Civilian
refueling
and other amenities.

Facilities nearing completion

These are scheduled to go on line by the end of the holiday year

Amber Six: scheduled to be fitted as a Fleet command HQ.  A Marine division
will also be headquartered here and will serve as ground defense
for the entire complex

Amber One:  will being equipped for family residences and Visiting officer
quarters.

Amber Nine will have it's berthing capacity upgraded to 200,000 dton
ships and will be able to perform routine maintenance on ships

Maor Delt will be upgraded to a Squadron base.

Maor Delt will be upgrade to a fleet level communication nexus and will
support
a communications squadron.

Fargo Station will be upgraded to refit, repair, and replace Jump drive
components.

Fargo Station will assume command of deep meson emplacements guarding
Gas Giant "Pell below".

Timohee RedJack Station:  Named after Olav-Plankwell's Flag Captain, this
is planned to take over as the entry point for all non official traffic.
It will offer fuel at standard prices, and will have a commercial mall
for the families and residents of Macene command.

Diltin One: Dilitin commanded Arabella's Supply efforts, both during the war
and on her march on the Core.  The Diltin is designed to keep Depot supplied
and support it offensive actions.  It will originally be a warehousing
operation, but over time will grew to include greenhouses, carniculture, and
live food production, along with recycling and manufacturing plants.

Frog Seven:  Is scheduled to augment the facilities of Frog Two and serve as
the
site for the Spinward arm of the fleet gunnery school.  Meson gunnery is the
first school scheduled for completion

Mid term activation (three to ten years)

Dlitin Three:  A planned Headquarters and warehouse facility for Sector
fleet
maintainance.

Amber Seven:  first class to start Spinward Marches Depot Academy


________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 12:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri Aug  9 11:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : OK, Now What?
In-Reply-To: <000801c23de9$3cfa8300$c69c67cb@robert>
References: <000801c23de9$3cfa8300$c69c67cb@robert>
Message-ID: <p04330103b979b556d090@[143.232.119.186]>

At 6:05 PM +1000 8/7/02, Robert O'Connor wrote:
>John Kwon wrote:-
>>  First I keep reading that plasma weapons are not possible -
>>  the bolt would dissipate a short distance from the barrel. 
><snip>
>
>One potential problem was with dissipation, the other with
>the ridiculous energies required (there's a good line in 'Guns, Guns,
>Guns'
>comparing PGMP-like weapons to Bangalore torpedoes...)

My understanding of the argument is that plasma guns are what 
thermodynamics call heat engines.  Thermo requires (even at maximum 
possible efficiency) that energies comparble to the shot fired get 
released by the gun.  So how do you shoot w/out doing as much damage 
to the gun (or your hand).
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 12:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 11:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D53003A.1070102@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020809190742.B3949@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3D540E41.1040509@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Timothy Little wrote:
> Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
>>You can't compare these, and which model is correct depends on which
>>rule set you use.
> 
> 
> Isn't this a bit deplorable, considering that they're all meant to be
> describing the same universe?

Actually, they're not.

Each set of rules is indeed a different universe.

Hard Times describes the MT Late Rebellion universe. GT:FT describes the 
steady state 'Strephon walks out of the shower' universe. WBH describes 
an early rebellion/CT universe.

The fact that they all share remarkable similarities in background story 
is mere coincidence ;-)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 12:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Fri Aug  9 11:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020809081646.009f77c0@mindspring.com>
References: <F24qs1wP7vvqgqGTwgT0000593c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020809135406.00a8fe50@minn.net>

At 08:27 AM 8/9/2002 -0700, The Lord of the Penguins wrote:

>The also ran into a wild card: Norris.  You can't predict an unexpected 
>enemy commander that is a bloody genius and has figured out your plan.  I 
>always wondered if Norris' branch of Naval Intelligence hadn't actually 
>learned bits and pieces of the Zhodani plan.
>
>The Zho's over-reached themselves, in my opinion.  They didn't properly 
>understand the strength of the Imperium's "defense in depth" concept, nor 
>the tenacity of local forces.

The answer in my view is simple. 

Spy on the allies. I'm using the NAVINT operations in the Vargr Extents as
part of the background of my serial fiction project. (I'm up to the end of
page two in part five of FiHP.)


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 13:36:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Aug  9 12:36:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Lawyers should look into this...
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D96@USCHM203>

>Douglas Berry wrote:

>The sound made by a round passing close by is sort of a "thwip"  You only 
>hear it when it is close to you, so when crawling through razor-wire at Ft.

>Benning, the 7.62mm rounds being fired above your head sound *damn* 
>close.  The loudest sound by far is the weapon itself.

I remember working the targets at Parris Island. There was very little sound
to the .223 M16 rounds passing overhead---the snap of the rounds passing
through the target was louder. You could tell a complete miss, though.
I agree that the sound would probably only be audible to someone close to
the round's path, and be difficult to tell where it came from.

I read somewhere that snipers like to have a pole, large tree, or other
object very close to their line of site. The bullet passing by makes it
sound as if the shot has been fired from the direction of the object...
I'm sure someone else can explain the why and how of this better.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 13:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  9 12:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMELPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020809124501.009f0490@mindspring.com>

At 08:41 AM 8/9/02 -0700, you wrote:
>That's probably what the seneschal class does, and we've never yet had a
>character generation system for the seneschal -- probably because there are
>no retired seneschals to go adventuring.  They are born into the class,
>study all their lives to synthesize, abstract, and communicate vast
>quantities of information, and do exactly that until they contract
>Alzheimer's and are debriefed in nursing homes.

It would make for an interesting template.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 13:49:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  9 12:49:32 2002
Subject: [TML] test, ignore
In-Reply-To: <B9794537.690D6%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020809124700.009f1ec0@mindspring.com>

At 10:08 AM 8/9/02 -0700, you wrote:
>This is a test of mime stripping

Isn't that when you steal Marcel Marceau's hubcaps?

I mean, how is he going to call the cops and report it?


-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is
that I am now a perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague
here is rapidly running out of limbs!"
   - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 13:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (markc@peak.org)
Date: Fri Aug  9 12:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
Message-ID: <232810-22002859195212613@M2W075.mail2web.com>

Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring=2Ecom> writes:

>Most of the sound associated with weapons fire is the sound of the powder=

>going off=2E  The crack of the bullet is negligible=2E  For example, a si=
lenced
>=2E22LR is nearly silent in operation=2E

Oh, come on, Doug=2E  You and I both know they're louder than that=2E
While you certainly don't need hearing protection around one, they
sound about like a large balloon being popped=2E  Even in an open
outdoor area, I can hear one fire over 50 yds=2E away=2E  Now, if
subsonic ammo is being used, it's a whole different story=2E

>A 4mm gauss round would make a high pitched *crack* audible only to
> those near the flight path=2E

With "near" probably meaning within 200 meters=2E  (This assumes a
calm, clear day, across level terrain and with no significant
background noise to mask the shot=2E)

    - Mark C=2E



--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 13:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Fri Aug  9 12:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] 100 ton scout ship?
In-Reply-To: <20020809030206.EC91C2793F@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020809195517.52468.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com>

I think I may have seen one of these. I saw a triangle
of lights one night,flying slowly across the sky.
However, the ship I saw appeared to be at a high
altitude. Not flying low like in the article.I
couldn't hear any engine noise so I thought it must be
very high up. If it was that high up, it had to be
enormous. Football feild would be a "conservative"
estimate. Even if it was flying low it would still be
huge. 

--- Eris Reddoch <erisred@telocity.com> wrote:
> On 08/08/02 at 03:08 PM,  Bruce Johnson
> <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
> said:
> 
> >Thing wrote:
> 
> > > 
>
>http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/black_triangle_020805.htm


=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 14:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Fri Aug  9 13:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <20809.011127.5m5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020809200101.53142.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com>

I have one reservation, I know that if I were awakened
from low berth sleep, most likely, it will be because
a substantial portion of the crew got killed, in which
case, the ship probably isn't in such great fighting
shape either. My first thought upon awakening would be
"Oh $#!+"

--- Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> wrote:
> In mail you write:
> 
> > It seemed a good deal.  You aren't first into
> battle (you aren't any 
> > more likely to get killed since the unfrozen guys
> get killed first) 
> > and you don't have to deal with boredom between
> battles.  Odds are 
> > you sign up, get frozen, and wake up with all your
> pay waiting for 
> > you.
> 
> Unless you missed the clause in the contract that
> calculates your
> "term" by the time you spend *thawed*. Mind you,
> it's legal, because
> you *do* get paid for the frozen time, though at a
> lower rate.
> 
> -- 
> Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 14:03:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 13:03:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : OK, Now What?
In-Reply-To: <p04330103b979b556d090@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028923378.5627.ajackson@ping>

David P. Summers writes:

> My understanding of the argument is that plasma guns are what 
> thermodynamics call heat engines.  Thermo requires (even at maximum 
> possible efficiency) that energies comparble to the shot fired get 
> released by the gun.  So how do you shoot w/out doing as much damage 
> to the gun (or your hand).

Huh?  I'm not sure in what way a plasma gun is a heat engine, and in any case
energies comparable to the shot do get released by the gun (travelling, not
surprisingly, out the muzzle).  The problem with a plasma gun is that you're
firing a bullet made out of ionized gas, and the normal expected behavior of
such a 'bullet' on contacting any sort of atmosphere is to spread out.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 15:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 14:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] test, ignore
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020809124700.009f1ec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3D542FEB.20406@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Douglas Berry wrote:
> At 10:08 AM 8/9/02 -0700, you wrote:
> 
>> This is a test of mime stripping
> 
> 
> Isn't that when you steal Marcel Marceau's hubcaps?
> 
> I mean, how is he going to call the cops and report it?
> 
> 
No no Email first, then we'll stripmime the rest of the Internet!

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 15:12:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 14:12:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
Message-ID: <200208092111.MKR04077@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"markc" says
>Oh, come on, Doug.  You and I both know they're louder than 
>that.

I carried an MP5SD5 for a while.  At the range, when you 
fired it, the sound of the bolt cycling seemed to dominate 
the sound picture, at least from the point of view of the 
person firing the weapon.

From any angle, however, it's unmistakable that someone is 
operating a weapon.

On a side note, I used to call the M-16 (without a 
suppressor) the Orville Redenbacher, because at a distance, 
it sounds like popcorn in the microwave.  Never really 
sounded like a real weapon to me.

I can't imagine lasers making any noise at all, unless you 
hit someone.  And if they aren't in the visible light range 
(ideal transmission is apparently in the near infrared for 
work in Earth's atmosphere), you won't see the near miss 
either.

________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 15:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 14:35:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
In-Reply-To: <200208092111.MKR04077@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028928845.7419.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> "markc" says
> >Oh, come on, Doug.  You and I both know they're louder than 
> >that.
> 
> I carried an MP5SD5 for a while.  At the range, when you 
> fired it, the sound of the bolt cycling seemed to dominate 
> the sound picture, at least from the point of view of the 
> person firing the weapon.

This could, of course, be related to the fact that a sonic boom can only be
heard to the sides of the moving object.

> I can't imagine lasers making any noise at all, unless you 
> hit someone.  And if they aren't in the visible light range 
> (ideal transmission is apparently in the near infrared for 
> work in Earth's atmosphere), you won't see the near miss 
> either.

I doubt that; I suspect most weapons lasers are IR because chemical lasers have
a tendency to be IR lasers.  For focusing reasons you probably want a
blue-green laser, since it will require a lens about half the diameter (1/4 the
area) of a near IR laser.

In any case, a weapons laser designed for shooting at people will be visible if
there's any dust in the atmosphere; the laser will vaporize the dust (which
will release some light) and many forms of dust will then burn (producing more
light).  Probably quite hard to see during the day, but visible enough at
night.

An X-ray laser, of course, would work differently.  X-rays don't go very far in
atmosphere, but using the standard 0.1A X-ray lasers in FF&S, you can simply
create a very small lens and fire a pulsed beam, tunneling through the
atmosphere.  This isn't terribly efficient (at an estimate, it takes somewhere
between 100 and 1000 meters atmosphere to provide as much armor as a centimeter
of steel), but it's rather unaffected by most forms of obscurement, and would
be extremely visible to observers.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 16:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  9 15:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020809093112.3480.46413.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17dHmw-0002cx-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>

> I'm actually rather surprised: my original estimate was based on just
> eyeballing Tasmania's map and guessing how much of it feeds Tasmania's
> population.  It looks like my original estimate of 1 hectare per
> person was grossly high.  Based on these firmer and more authoritative
> figures, 0.2 hectares per person should suffice.

That's fascinating having last looking into all this about a decade 
ago I wrote my post on this topic w/o rechecking my data.  I got 
the numbers correct, but my memory managed to move a decimal 
place (0.1 hectares/person will barely work if you don't grow dairy 
or meat other than carp).  Man, I hate forgetting data, the faster 
someone discovers a way to upgrade ourselves the better.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com  


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 16:00:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  9 15:00:31 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <20020809142203.8049.65097.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17dHmz-0002cx-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:

> If global causality isn't preserved, then you can have effects without
> causes and a number of other things. And they basicly make hash of the
> very *idea* of there being natural laws. Which is why scientists are
> so reluctant to accept causality violations. 
> 
> Causality is *very* basic. 

Very true, but I still find is fascinating that the primary arguement 
that global causality must hold is aesthetic.  I'm not saying is 
doesn't hold, merely that the reasoning is interesting.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 16:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Fri Aug  9 15:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Do I have to Yahoo! ?
References: <177.cae8ad7.2a847ccf@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001201c23ff0$e1e6dea0$45cad63f@customer>

Thanks Jon.  I had already subcribed when I recieved the e-mail.  I =
guess that's why it was sent to me.  My addled brain thought I had to =
join the group to confirm my subcription.  Your e-mail clears things up =
for me. Thanks again

PS aurichtech got the free month, he was the 'fastest with the mostest'. =
 Besides I have support our boy in uniform.

John Scarlett
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: JFZeigler@aol.com=20
  To: tml@travellercentral.com=20
  Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 10:02 PM
  Subject: Re: [TML] Do I have to Yahoo! ?


  > Could someone tell me if it is necessary to follow these =
instructions to=20
  > subscribe to The JTAS.=20

  Hmmm.=20

  The JTAS group on Yahoo! is mostly just for announcements of new=20
  content in the real Journal of the Traveller's Aid Society. I've never =
seen=20
  it used for anything else.=20

  If you want to subscribe to JTAS itself - the actual webzine currently =

  run by Steve Jackson Games - you can go to http://jtas.sjgames.com/ .=20
  There are samples of content that you can look at before deciding=20
  whether you want to subscribe or not, and I believe you can actually=20
  subscribe using a link from that page.=20

  Enjoy.=20

  ----------=20
  Jon F. Zeigler=20
  Line Editor, GURPS Traveller=20
  jon@sjgames.com=20
  "The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."=20


--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/html
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 16:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri Aug  9 15:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How many Xboats...
In-Reply-To: <200208081636.MIN00707@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208081636.MIN00707@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <p04330105b979f034adc9@[143.232.119.186]>

At 12:36 PM -0400 8/8/02, John T. Kwon wrote:
>Roseberry asks
>>How many Xboats/Xboat tenders does one need to maintain a
>>single Xboat Route?
>
>I want to know how often X-boats leave and arrive.  If the
>boats leave on the hour

Given the 7 week time it will take the message to get there, on the 
hour seems excessive.  I would guess once a day (or less).
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 16:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Fri Aug  9 15:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] test, ignore
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020809124700.009f1ec0@mindspring.com>
References: <B9794537.690D6%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020809124700.009f1ec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020810004328.34283a79.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Listmom wrote:
> This is a test of mime stripping

I get really odd and really naughty images in my head when you say that...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 16:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Aug  9 15:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra, Zhakirov and Antiama
References: <20020809190005.13683.7858.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001201c23ff7$843c1fc0$0f5d8690@computer>

> From: Douglas Berry
> I was a bit unclear.  I meant to show that Arbellatra set the stage by
> weakening the Solomani grip on power at the court that had led to the
Civil
> War in the first place.  I imagine many nobles were stripped of their
> titles, and those titles passed to others.  She also, IMTU, shook up the
> bureaucracy and made it more effective by elevating Vilani business people
> to positions of authority, complete with the appropriate titles.

Fair enough. I guess the main thing is that compatibility with existing
canon is maintained.

I just had a look in Rim of Fire. It handles the issue very well. I would go
with their account.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 17:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 16:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
In-Reply-To: <m37kj6jfye.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20809.152101.5u4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com> writes:
>> 
>> So does SPAM survive the Rule of Man, the Long Night and into the
>> Third Imperium?
>
> It no longer is manufactures, but reserves of SPAM still exist.  The
> stuff lasts forever, you know...

Along with Velveeta ("The Food That Will Not Die" or some such according
to "Doon")

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 17:04:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 16:04:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Movies
In-Reply-To: <20020804135041.73249.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20809.152543.5e8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> OT: has anyone ever concerned the proximity of ships
> to each other in close orbit and planetary
> bombardment?  How close is too close?  Does a fleet
> turn the night sky bright with the multitude of
> invading ships?

Between the velocities involved and the weapon energies, ships should
be spaced *miles* apart. A "tight formation" is one where you can see
the other ships. 

The sort of formations shown in most TV shows and movies is workable
only for "parking orbits" (and not *too* workable there, as during the
course of an orbit the relative distances will change *considerably*)
or for the equivalent of Blue Angels type close formation stunt flying.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 19:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 18:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hey, wait a minute...
Message-ID: <200208100107.MKZ01680@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

The Sword Worlds had their first interstellar government, the 
Sacnoth Dominate, in -186, and lasting to -102, when 
rebellion broke it up.

Garda-Vilis is supposedly settled in -121 as Tanoose.

I am presuming that Vilis itself is settled before -121.

Would it be presumptuous to assume that Vilis itself was a 
colonization project put up prior to the ascendancy of the 
Sacnoth Dominate, but too far away for the Dominate to 
effectively rule?
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 19:08:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug  9 18:08:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
In-Reply-To: <232810-22002859195212613@M2W075.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <B979B575.6914A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/9/02 12:52 PM, markc@peak.org at markc@peak.org wrote:
>=20
>> A 4mm gauss round would make a high pitched *crack* audible only to
>> those near the flight path.
>=20
> With "near" probably meaning within 200 meters.  (This assumes a
> calm, clear day, across level terrain and with no significant
> background noise to mask the shot.)

Having just been shooting a suppressed M-16 less than a week ago, I can say
that even though it is quite comfortable to shoot without hearing
protection, there is a definite crack that is audible for quite some
distance.  It is, in fact, quite loud, just not painfully.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 19:19:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 18:19:07 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <20809.024856.2h6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <011801c23adc$bdd0f780$1d17bd50@martinjd> <20809.024856.2h6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020810111729.A5883@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Basicly, a nuke that is being used to convery something (styrofoam
> works!) into a plasma to push a bunch of projectiles.

You can even get pretty close to modelling this in GURPS Vehicles :)

Under Orion drives, it gives a formula for total impulse per kiloton
of thrust bomb.  Because the 'Vehicle' doesn't need to remain intact,
you can divide mass of pusher structure by a lot, say 1000.

So, you might model it as a missile with one-shot Orion propulsion and
a beehive warhead.  Unfortunately, Vehicles assigns far more total
damage to each projectile of a multiple-projectile round than is
reasonable.  In particular, every one of thousands of projectiles does
1/4 of the damage that a single solid projectile of the same mass
would do.


So Let's abandon GURPS Vehicles, and work from basic principles,
borrowing capabilities from source material as necessary and
converting back into game system terms only at the end.


Let's say you choose 1 mm ball bearings as the projectiles.  Each
kilogram of warhead thus includes about two hundred thousand of them.

Let's have a 10-kiloton thrust bomb, with a mass of about 1 kg at
TL10.  A propulsion system mass of 10 kg/kiloton doesn't sound too far
out, you do need to protect the payload from being directly vaporised.
So let's add 100 kg of styrofoam or whatever, and 100 kg of ball
bearings.

Assume say 10% efficiency of converting detonation energy to kinetic
energy of payload in the desired direction, for a final payload speed
of 200 km/s.

Now, there are about 20 million probably partly-melted and definitely
misshapen ball bearings travelling at 200 km/s, in say a 1:10 cone.
At a range of 1000 km, there's one ball bearing per 1600 m^2, each
with 1000 MJ of kinetic energy.


Converting back into G:Traveller game terms, the "to-hit" roll is
pretty closely modelled by Size + RoF - Range, where RoF is in this
case the number of ball bearings.  For example, 1 million ball
bearings is +33, and 20 million is +37.  Each two points of success
indicates a doubling of the number of hits.  Damage from each hit is
about 6d x 45, using the Vehicles missile impact damage with a 1 mm
missile travelling at 220,000 yards per second.  Basic cost is about
12 kCr per mine.

There, that doesn't look too shabby.  A weapon for lightly-armoured
ships to fear out to a few thousand kilometres range, and devastating
to them within a few hundred kilometres.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 19:30:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  9 18:30:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Uthe
Message-ID: <12e.15a72e95.2a85c63e@aol.com>

Les writes:

>Where can I find UWP stats for the Uthe subsector? Canon if possible.

That would be in Foreven Sector? Canon for the entire sector comprises one 
set, out of many, of subsector names, world *positions* and about seven world 
UWPs. That's it. Foreven was set aside (other than the above) as "not to be 
officially developed" by GDW late in the MT days.  The handfull of official 
bits were published in Imperiallines #1. Some details beyond this can be 
found in the CT adventures in that sector.

That said, there are a couple fan write-ups out on the net...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 19:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 18:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
Message-ID: <200208100133.MLB00132@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>Let's have a 10-kiloton thrust bomb, with a mass of about 1 
>kg at TL10.  A propulsion system mass of 10 kg/kiloton 
>doesn't sound too far out, you do need to protect the 
>payload from being directly vaporised.
>So let's add 100 kg of styrofoam or whatever, and 100 kg of 
>ball bearings.

First thought: I don't believe 100kg would do it.

>Now, there are about 20 million probably partly-melted and 
>definitely misshapen ball bearings travelling at 200 km/s, 
>in say a 1:10 cone.
>At a range of 1000 km, there's one ball bearing per 1600 
>m^2, each with 1000 MJ of kinetic energy.

This is a bit misleading.  A modern APFSDS penetrator weighs 
around 15 kg, and has a kinetic energy of around 9 MJ.  It is 
designed to unleash its energy inside the target - i.e., it 
has to hold together long enough to penetrate the hull.  
Because the penetrator holds together long enough to spear 
through the hull, it can actually do damage.

These ball bearings sound like micrometeoroids.  Put up a 
Whipple bumper (a thin layer of aluminum, spaced several 
inches away from the main hull), and they'll be vaporized on 
contact with the outer layer, and the energy will be 
harmlessly dissipated, even if it is 1000 MJ.

________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 19:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 18:35:02 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <001a01c23f4b$b6502d00$7400a8c0@matt> <20020809193011.F3949@freeman.little-possums.net> <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt>
Message-ID: <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net>

Matthew Bond wrote:
> Actually I was referring to the immediately prior post in the tread,
> by Flykiller@aol.com...

But Flykiller's post refers specifically to a post saying that planets
fail due to loss of trade, not warfare, damage, or any TNE-specific
features.  To wit:

  >If planets are so self sufficient, then why does TNE describe planets
  >failing because they were cut off from interstellar trade?

The answer is that TNE does *not* describe planets failing because
they were cut off from interstellar trade.

TNE describes planets failing because they have been torn by sabotage,
subversion by hostile life-forms, warfare, looting, and numerous other
factors not particularly related to loss of trade.  It is hence
irrelevant to the preceding discussion.


> Your arguement was that irrespective of trade all planets can
> (perhaps even 'must') be self sufficient.

No, my argument was that trade levels for high-pop worlds are known to
be so low that there can not be any short-term external dependence on
trade.

Longer-term dependence on a scale of centuries may be a possibility,
but I personally think it far more likely that if trade was cut, it
would not take that long to develop local resources to cover or avoid
the very small shortfall.


> Thats all I'm saying... given sufficient stress to the system
> (irrespective of which particular Traveller setting you use), you
> can Fail any planet that isn't capable of supporting life without
> TL9+ intervention.

That's rather a guarded and qualified statement.  I'd go further and
say that given sufficient stress to the system, you can Fail any
planet at all!

But it won't be due to lack of trade, which was the contention of the
original post.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 19:38:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 18:38:09 2002
Subject: [TML] settlement date of Vilis
Message-ID: <200208100137.MLB00305@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I'm putting the settlement date of Vilis down as -240, some 
time before the Sacnoth Dominate, and the colonists leaving 
from Gungnir.

Any thoughts?
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 19:40:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 18:40:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <3D540E41.1040509@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D53003A.1070102@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020809190742.B3949@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D540E41.1040509@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020810113922.D5883@freeman.little-possums.net>

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> The fact that they all share remarkable similarities in background
> story is mere coincidence ;-)

Sort of makes a shambles of the acronym "OTU" though :(


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 20:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Fri Aug  9 19:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Was there really a Nung River in Indochina? Was: Uthe
In-Reply-To: <12e.15a72e95.2a85c63e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020809211618.00a919f0@minn.net>

At 09:28 PM 8/9/2002 EDT, GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:
>Les writes:
>
>>Where can I find UWP stats for the Uthe subsector? Canon if possible.
>
>That would be in Foreven Sector? Canon for the entire sector comprises one 
>set, out of many, of subsector names, world *positions* and about seven
world 
>UWPs. That's it. Foreven was set aside (other than the above) as "not to be 
>officially developed" by GDW late in the MT days.  The handfull of official 
>bits were published in Imperiallines #1. Some details beyond this can be 
>found in the CT adventures in that sector.

Sorry, I believe that you are incorrect.

If I recall correctly the Foreven sector is spinward of the Spinward
Marches. The Uthe subsector is shown in Supplement 3 as being immediately
coreward of the Regina subsector. 

I need the data for my demented OTU rewrite of Coppola's demented remake of
The Wizard of Oz.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 20:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  9 19:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
Message-ID: <20020810004141.99222.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

>The also ran into a wild card: Norris.  You can't predict an 
>unexpected enemy commander that is a bloody genius and has figured
>out your plan.  I always wondered if Norris' branch of Naval
>Intelligence hadn't actually learned bits and pieces of the Zhodani
>plan.

and then failed to disclose those bits and pieces to Sector Admiral
Santanocheev, to destroy his credibility before the Emperor, and to
allow the advance of other members of the INI cabal ... how paranoid
are we?

>The Zho's over-reached themselves, in my opinion.  They didn't 
>properly understand the strength of the Imperium's "defense in
>depth" concept, nor the tenacity of local forces.

Shtaliajtlas was an idiot, actually, who had not run enough
simulations to know how to get and hold 300 points before the
Imperium could react and start rolling the Zhodanis back.  

--Glenn


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 20:43:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Aug  9 19:43:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Gencon Details?
Message-ID: <3D547C9B.5C463567@mail.cswnet.com>

Anyone with details on whats going on at Gencon?

[sniffle] I wish I was there. [out right crying]

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 20:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 19:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <200208100133.MLB00132@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208100133.MLB00132@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020810124558.E5883@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> First thought: I don't believe 100kg would do it.

I'm assuming GTL 10-12 (TTL C-F), not current-day.  I thought I'd give
the concept the benefit of the doubt.


> These ball bearings sound like micrometeoroids.

Yes.  Only about ten times faster, roughly five times as dense, and at
least a few thousand times the volume.  They could be considered "like
micrometeroids" in the same sense that an APFSDS penetrator could be
considered "like a piece of bird shot".

I did totally miscalculate their energy though; it is really 100 kJ.
Yes, that's pathetic, and yet another strike against GURPS Vehicles
that it gives them a damage of 6d x 45.  You still want a fairly good
hull material though.

Suppose the aluminium layer is 3 mm thick (which seems generous enough
for a Whipple bumper).  The speed of the projectile is about 20 times
the speed of sound in aluminium, and hence the mass of aluminium that
absorbs energy works out to at most 7 milligrams.

It actually works out much less still, because at 200 km/s there is a
very good chance that the nuclei of the projectile atoms pass through
the spaces between the aluminium nuclei with greatly reduced
deflection.  The projectile should be more accurately modelled as a
coherent particle pulse than a solid object when considering the
terminal ballistics.  But assume that doesn't really happen.

Instead of a projectile travelling at 200 km/s, after the bumper
you're left with a jet of plasma at 10 million kelvin travelling at an
average speed of more than 80 km/s.  That hits your bare hull, still
carrying most of its original energy.  Not good.


Obviously, if the energy really was 1000 MJ then the bumper would be
utterly useless.  Such a bumper is designed to stop much smaller and
slower projectiles with kinetic energies of less than a 1 J that might
otherwise cause erosion.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 21:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 20:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1028582658.5758.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20809.200112.4y7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Steven Hudson writes:
>> 
>>   "Fighter Division: ... Fighters are used for long range
>> patrols and recon within a system, allows (sic) the carrier
>> advanced warning of enemy ... In addition, the fighters are
>> expected to hold the screen against enemy vessels until the
>> Riders are ready to begin* a battle".
>
> Two problems:
>
> 1)  In space, it tends to be easier to simply tack a great big sensor on the
> main ship.

Except that a synethic aperture sensor using fighters well away from
the ship will *always* have better resolution than any array the ship
can carry because resolution depends on *width* of the sensor.

The shipboard sensor may have higher *sensitivity* because sensitivity
depends on surface area of the sensor (or sensors in the case of
multi-element arrays). 

The higher resolution is useful in getting distance and location of
enemy ships. Which makes for better targetting solutions.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 21:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 20:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
Message-ID: <200208100314.MLD01626@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>I'm assuming GTL 10-12 (TTL C-F), not current-day.  I 
>thought I'd give the concept the benefit of the doubt.

I seem to recall that bumper material is just a straight heat 
of vaporization kind of thing.  Distance from blast, yield, 
etc.  Not that a nuclear shotgun hasn't been invented.  They 
were evidently considered for SDI, but that part of the OTA 
report is still classified.


>Yes.  Only about ten times faster, roughly five times as 
>dense, and at least a few thousand times the volume.  

NASA apparently tests using a steel 3mm projectile at 7km/sec.

>You still want a fairly good hull material though.

Apparently the reason that multilayered, thin, spaced bumpers 
do better than solid armor at protecting against impact that 
turns a projectile into plasma is that solid armor tends to 
confine the plasma - the penetration is actually enhanced.  
With a space between each layer, the plasma has (albeit 
nanoseconds) time to expand after passing through successive 
layers.  And even a few nanoseconds of expansion is better 
than none at all.

>It actually works out much less still, because at 200 km/s 
>there is a very good chance that the nuclei of the 
>projectile atoms pass through the spaces between the 
>aluminium nuclei with greatly reduced
>deflection.  

I don't see 200km/sec as a velocity range where we would get 
these kinds of effects.  Maybe at relativistic velocities.

>Instead of a projectile travelling at 200 km/s, after the 
>bumper you're left with a jet of plasma at 10 million kelvin 
>travelling at an average speed of more than 80 km/s.  

But it's not an inline jet, as it would largely remain if it 
hit solid armor plate with decent thickness.  So now there's 
some jet, and some of the energy is dissipating as a 
hemispherical shock front of plasma.

>That hits your bare hull, still carrying most of its 
>original energy.  Not good.

Yes, but spread over a slightly wider area.  And if I have 
multiple layers, the layers get chewed up, but the ship is 
unharmed.  Of course, a shotgun effect like this could 
effectively clean off one side of the ship - the bumpers 
could be swept away, along with any exposed antennae, 
turrets, etc.  Perhaps even maneuver thrusters if the hit 
came from behind.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 21:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Fri Aug  9 20:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
Message-ID: <000001c2401f$59029320$33c3d63f@customer>

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> >The fact that they all share remarkable similarities in background
> >story is mere coincidence ;-)

Tim Little wrote:
>Sort of makes a shambles of the acronym "OTU" though :(

The fact is that the OTU as it stands is contradictory, inconsistent and, at
times, unworkable.
It's a mish-mash put together by dozens of different people with no apparent
continuity control.

There doesn't appear to have been any effort to make the various rules sets
mesh together either.

John Scarlett




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 21:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Aug  9 20:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
Message-ID: <F127V8MoyGnyxrDyfbX00007185@hotmail.com>

From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

     "I suggest constant suggestions that the young hellion requires an
immediate bath."


Mr. Berry,

     Thank you for the additional ammunition sir!  My threats of "I'll sell 
you for medical experiments" and "I'll mail you to the undertaker" have lost 
their luster.

     "But can be considered a success.  There have been no Imperial
attempts to establish colonies in Zhodani space for 700 years."

     Oh yes, a rousing success.  The buffer zone intended circa 500 hasn't 
been completed yet, but there are no Imperial colonies, client states, or 
whatever in Zhodani space.  The buffer zone requirement may simply be a 
"leftover" goal from the original strategy sessions in the 500's.  The Zhos 
have already achieved the benefits a buffer zone would give them, but not 
the actual buffer zone itself.

     "The also ran into a wild card: Norris.  You can't predict an
unexpected enemy commander that is a bloody genius and has figured out your 
plan.  I always wondered if Norris' branch of Naval Intelligence hadn't 
actually learned bits and pieces of the Zhodani plan."

     True.  The Imperium had a few geniuses during that war.  Add to the 
total, the SDB flotilla commander who scattered his forces to continually 
contest the Zho's supply line for the Efate siege rather than fight to the 
death.  Or the sophont who led the 212th against the Swords during the war's 
latter stages, smashing the Sacnoth fleet and occupying the good chunk of 
the Confederation in 90 days is nothing to sneeze at.  Or the sophont who 
defended Rhylanor, he/she/it might have known about a prospective Zho 
offensive but they still beat it.

     "The Zho's over-reached themselves, in my opinion.  They didn't
properly understand the strength of the Imperium's "defense in depth" 
concept, nor the tenacity of local forces."

     The Zho plan may have worked against the old Imperial "crust defense" 
policy.  The "islands of resistance" policy threw the Zhos a nasty curve, 
they completely failed to pick up IN paradigm shift despite the TNS news 
briefs.  As victors of the last 3 of 4 wars, the Zhos planned and fought the 
LAST frontier war.  As losers of the last 3 of 4 wars, the Imperials 
(finally) planned and fought the NEXT frontier war.  That little morality 
play has occurred too many times in human history not to be recognized.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 21:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Aug  9 20:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
In-Reply-To: <000001c2401f$59029320$33c3d63f@customer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020809235319.02899e68@192.168.0.1>

At 11:36 PM 8/9/2002 -0400, John Scarlett wrote:
>Bruce Johnson wrote:
> > >The fact that they all share remarkable similarities in background
> > >story is mere coincidence ;-)
>Tim Little wrote:
> >Sort of makes a shambles of the acronym "OTU" though :(
>The fact is that the OTU as it stands is contradictory, inconsistent and, at
>times, unworkable.
>It's a mish-mash put together by dozens of different people with no apparent
>continuity control.

Well, some...but even works by single authors show inconsistencies.
I'm sure folks in the list can give multiple examples in popular fiction.

>There doesn't appear to have been any effort to make the various rules sets
>mesh together either.

Hmmmm....and the business model for making GT mech to CT rules?



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 22:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Aug  9 21:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
Message-ID: <F50zbAUfKRfcjcMzfoV000000cd@hotmail.com>

From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

     "I heartily endorse your basic analysis,..."

Mr. Goffin,

     Please see a mental health professional as soon as possible.  While 
Whipsnade's Syndrome is terminal, the final stages may be delayed long 
enough to allow the sufferers a nearly normal life.  The usual prescription 
involves a daily dose of alcohol.

     "... which must be further evidence for the common belief that great 
minds think alike -- er, I mean, that Traveller players need to get a life 
-- no wait a bit..."

     Yes, I do need to get a life.

     "Anyway, if the boardgame of Fifth Frontier War is a good 
simulation,..."

     It's the ONLY simulation we have! (shudder)

     "So the Jewells would not have to be ground down by planetary sieges.  
Jewell itself is always a battle, but the Mongo National Guard will flee in 
terror after some bombing, and Esalin, Emerald, and Ruby have no defense 
forces to speak of (those TL 8 motorized infantry on Esalin are more 
terrified that the MNG, but can't flee as fast).  Lysen and Grant likewise 
need only to be occupied."

     Your are, of course, correct sir.  Jewel may require a siege, but the 
Jewels do not.

     "Begin processing the captives!"

     Hi, I'm Larsen and I'm a deadhead.
     Hi, Larsen!  Give us back our wristwatches!



     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 22:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 21:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <200208091101.MJX01284@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20809.201104.3R7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson
>>Causality is *very* basic. 
>
> Wheeler has shown that there is no proof that causality is a 
> requirement of this universe as a basic law.  It makes a nice 
> thought, but by no means is it a requirement.
>
> The two-slit experiment, played out over interstellar 
> distances, or even across a tabletop in a lab, was shown in 
> 1987 to indicate that causality is violated on a regular 
> basis.

Excuse me? Care to detail exactly *how* it violates causality?

It may violate *local* causality. But *global* causality is a very
different kettle of fish.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 22:11:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 21:11:15 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <200208091312.MKB02981@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20809.201248.7O9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> "Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance" says
>>Not quite. If I understand Wheeler correctly, causality is 
>>not violated as such (cause still precedes effect). Its just 
>>cause is not determined until the effect is observed.
>
> the problem is that the nature of the observation will force 
> a photon to the left or the right - an observation that is 
> taken perhaps a billion years after the photon departed. 

So? The effect (left or right) still *has* a cause (the observation). 

So *global* causality is upheld. Local isn't.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 22:11:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 21:11:31 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <E17dHmz-0002cx-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20809.201407.9P9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
>
>> If global causality isn't preserved, then you can have effects without
>> causes and a number of other things. And they basicly make hash of the
>> very *idea* of there being natural laws. Which is why scientists are
>> so reluctant to accept causality violations. 
>> 
>> Causality is *very* basic. 
>
> Very true, but I still find is fascinating that the primary arguement 
> that global causality must hold is aesthetic.  I'm not saying is 
> doesn't hold, merely that the reasoning is interesting.

Well, in the end it boils down to "without global causality 'reasoning'
is merely wishful thinking". 

Because without global causality, it's not possible to draw
conclusions. "If A then B" doesn't hold. And without that, everything
else falls apart.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 22:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Fri Aug  9 21:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Obeyery of Stave
In-Reply-To: <20020809195517.52468.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPCEHHEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

I am currently in the process of re-doing my entire web site.  What I was
wondering is if anyone can take a look at what I have done with the Stave
system (part of the Traveller Landgrab) and the Obeyery who were mentioned
in BTC, and suggest anything more they would like to see. I will probably
expand the details of the other two systems which are only partly completed,
at the same time.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 23:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 22:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller - more
In-Reply-To: <d1.1c6715c7.2a8098f4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20809.212402.6L7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>  >Actually, given some of the other tech, the weapons could be fusion
>  >warheads that don't *need* a fission trigger.
>
> I see.  Then (ignoring the fact that this is fantasy technology) I suppose 
> that anyone with access to a fusion plant of any size will have access to a 
> fusion "nuke" (for lack of another word)?
>
> Book 4 states that the PGMP-13 is powered by a fusion reactor.  I don't 
> suppose this would be significantly larger than that on a missile, so how 
> much modification would be needed to turn it into a bomb?

That we can't say. But it'd be rather like turning a propane torch into
a bomb. Doable, but messy.

Fusion doesn't have "critical mass" (unless you are talking about star
sized masses). So you have to do *something* to the fusion fuel to make
it fuse *fast*, and in quantity. This requires not mere high temps and
pressures, but *something* (inertia, pressure, whatever) to keep the
fuel in the reaction area long enough to react.

Maybe gravitics? 

Fusion reactors are even harder to make go "boom" than fission
reactors. And even fission reactors don't explode easily. They don't do
*nuclear* explosions at all unless you pull all the fuel, repack it and
use a *lot* of explosives.

Even so, anything that can make an FGMP or air raft fusion plant work,
could probably make a "pure" fusion bomob that wasn't overly huge. Say
the size of an early atomic bomb. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 00:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 23:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <200208100314.MLD01626@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208100314.MLD01626@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020810155906.A6285@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> I seem to recall that bumper material is just a straight heat 
> of vaporization kind of thing.  Distance from blast, yield, 
> etc.

Yeah, I'm assuming much better materials at TL 12 than here at TL 7.


> NASA apparently tests using a steel 3mm projectile at 7km/sec.

That's a very big "micro"meteoroid!  It's travelling a lot slower
though, so that probably makes up for it.


> With a space between each layer, the plasma has (albeit 
> nanoseconds) time to expand after passing through successive 
> layers.

Sure -- at the expense of more cost and hugely more volume.


> I don't see 200km/sec as a velocity range where we would get these
> kinds of effects.  Maybe at relativistic velocities.

200 km/s *is* starting to get into relativisitic velocities; it is
approaching 0.1% of c.

Work it out yourself though.  An iron nucleus at 200 km/s has a
kinetic energy of 12 keV.  That's a couple of orders of magnitude more
than the binding energy of its electrons, so chemical effects are not
a significant factor.  The nuclei *are* essentially independent
particles.

It so happens that a few millimetres of aluminium is enough to
thermalise the nuclei, and the aluminium will become a significant
part of the resulting plasma.


> But it's not an inline jet, as it would largely remain if it 
> hit solid armor plate with decent thickness.  So now there's 
> some jet, and some of the energy is dissipating as a 
> hemispherical shock front of plasma.

Less than 1/4 of the energy dissipates sideways in this case.  Yes,
multiple layers will do a much better job.  Most of the energy will be
absorbed by the 3rd or 4th layer.


> Of course, a shotgun effect like this could effectively clean off
> one side of the ship

Worse than that: the bumper layers rely for their effectiveness on
extremely sparse impacts.  The plasma from one impact destroys a much
larger region of the layers than the size of the projectile.  For
example, the impact in question would probably render 4-5 layers
ineffective over a region 20-50 cm via blast effects originating at
about layer 3 warping the structure around it.

If another projectile hits nearby, there will be much less protection.
There is a good chance that it would directly hit the hull.


You should also remember how much space these layers take up.  For a
400 dton ship, each layer consumes at least 10 dtons or so.  Since
they're no better protection than solid armour against anything bigger
than a centimetre or so at starship combat speeds (or any starship
weapons), it seems like a pretty poor deal to me.

I don't think Traveller ships would bother with spaced armour, since
their costs are so heavily volume-dependent.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 00:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Aug  9 23:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <20020810155906.A6285@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHIEOIILAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> I seem to recall that bumper material is just a straight heat 
> of vaporization kind of thing.  Distance from blast, yield, 
> etc.

Yeah, I'm assuming much better materials at TL 12 than here at TL 7.


> NASA apparently tests using a steel 3mm projectile at 7km/sec.

That's a very big "micro"meteoroid!  It's travelling a lot slower
though, so that probably makes up for it.


> With a space between each layer, the plasma has (albeit 
> nanoseconds) time to expand after passing through successive 
> layers.

Sure -- at the expense of more cost and hugely more volume.


> I don't see 200km/sec as a velocity range where we would get these
> kinds of effects.  Maybe at relativistic velocities.

200 km/s *is* starting to get into relativisitic velocities; it is
approaching 0.1% of c.

Work it out yourself though.  An iron nucleus at 200 km/s has a
kinetic energy of 12 keV.  That's a couple of orders of magnitude more
than the binding energy of its electrons, so chemical effects are not
a significant factor.  The nuclei *are* essentially independent
particles.

It so happens that a few millimetres of aluminium is enough to
thermalise the nuclei, and the aluminium will become a significant
part of the resulting plasma.


> But it's not an inline jet, as it would largely remain if it 
> hit solid armor plate with decent thickness.  So now there's 
> some jet, and some of the energy is dissipating as a 
> hemispherical shock front of plasma.

Less than 1/4 of the energy dissipates sideways in this case.  Yes,
multiple layers will do a much better job.  Most of the energy will be
absorbed by the 3rd or 4th layer.


> Of course, a shotgun effect like this could effectively clean off
> one side of the ship

Worse than that: the bumper layers rely for their effectiveness on
extremely sparse impacts.  The plasma from one impact destroys a much
larger region of the layers than the size of the projectile.  For
example, the impact in question would probably render 4-5 layers
ineffective over a region 20-50 cm via blast effects originating at
about layer 3 warping the structure around it.

If another projectile hits nearby, there will be much less protection.
There is a good chance that it would directly hit the hull.


You should also remember how much space these layers take up.  For a
400 dton ship, each layer consumes at least 10 dtons or so.  Since
they're no better protection than solid armour against anything bigger
than a centimetre or so at starship combat speeds (or any starship
weapons), it seems like a pretty poor deal to me.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Can't they just use TL 15 strip mine?

jml
Of course he's a folk singer
he sounds like he's got terminal mumps


I don't think Traveller ships would bother with spaced armour, since
their costs are so heavily volume-dependent.


- Tim
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 00:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  9 23:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] test, ignore
Message-ID: <5ad2d65abf6f.5abf6f5ad2d6@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Date: Friday, August 9, 2002 8:08 pm
Subject: [TML] test, ignore

> This is a test of mime stripping

"Don't look, Ethel!" ;-)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 00:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  9 23:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] test3, ignore
Message-ID: <5acc125ad03b.5ad03b5acc12@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Date: Friday, August 9, 2002 8:33 pm
Subject: [TML] test3, ignore

> Final MIME test

Must be working.  I didn't hear a thing. ;-)

OTOH, I _did_ hear Tom Bodett's voice in my mind's ear....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 00:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri Aug  9 23:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Uthe
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020809211618.00a919f0@minn.net>
Message-ID: <20020810065021.7C9C72793A@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/09/02 at 09:16 PM,  Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net> said:

>At 09:28 PM 8/9/2002 EDT, GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:
>>Les writes:
>>
>>>Where can I find UWP stats for the Uthe subsector? Canon if possible.

>>That would be in Foreven Sector? Canon for the entire sector comprises one 
>>set, out of many, of subsector names, world *positions* and about seven
>world 
>>UWPs. That's it. Foreven was set aside (other than the above) as "not to be 
>>officially developed" by GDW late in the MT days.  The handfull of official 
>>bits were published in Imperiallines #1. Some details beyond this can be 
>>found in the CT adventures in that sector.

>Sorry, I believe that you are incorrect.

>If I recall correctly the Foreven sector is spinward of the Spinward
>Marches. The Uthe subsector is shown in Supplement 3 as being
>immediately coreward of the Regina subsector. 

Gvurrdon Sector/Subsector O -- Uthe

 I go to <http://zho.bekka.com/data/CLASSIC/> for my OTU data needs.
<g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 01:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat Aug 10 00:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020809081646.009f77c0@mindspring.com>
References: <F24qs1wP7vvqgqGTwgT0000593c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D556531.21647.F79DE@localhost>

On 9 Aug 2002 at 8:27, Douglas Berry wrote:

> >     The Zho's three main offensives fit this idea neatly.  First, they 
> > "pin down" the Jewels.  Second, a sickle stroke through the Efate region 
> > to cut the Jewels off.  Third, a deep strike at Rhylanor to gain the 
> > war's supreme bargaining chip.
> >     If all had gone well, the Jewels would be slowly ground down by a 
> > series of planetary seiges, cutoff from the rest of the Imperium by Zho 
> > forces in the Efate region, and eventually abandoned by the Imperium at 
> > the negotiation table in return for the Zhodani evacuation of Rhylanor.
> >     Of course, no plan survives contact with the enemy, but the 
> > Consulate's hubris can be forgiven.  After all, they had won every 
> > Frontier War prior to the Fifth.  To paraphrase Moltke, the Consulate 
> > planned well, but didn't quite plan enough.
> 
> The also ran into a wild card: Norris.  You can't predict an unexpected 
> enemy commander that is a bloody genius and has figured out your plan.  I 
> always wondered if Norris' branch of Naval Intelligence hadn't actually 
> learned bits and pieces of the Zhodani plan.
> 
> The Zho's over-reached themselves, in my opinion.  They didn't properly 
> understand the strength of the Imperium's "defense in depth" concept, nor 
> the tenacity of local forces.

The latter is perhaps understandable, as in previous wars they didn't 
seem to have much trouble 'persuading' systems to leave the Imperium. 
The time between the Third Frontier War and the 4th & 5th wars seems to 
have been sufficient for the Spinward Marches to become firmly 
integrated into the 3I at a fundmental, emotional level.

As for lack of understanding of the 'defence in depth' - IIRC the rider 
'Rons didn't make too good a showing in the 4th War, so they may have 
underestimeted their effectiveness, even though the rapid-reaction role 
is probably the strongest defensive role for the rider component of a 
fleet.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 01:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 10 00:37:03 2002
Subject: Armor Schemes (was: Re: [TML] mines)
Message-ID: <5b9b0f5ba833.5ba8335b9b0f@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
Date: Saturday, August 10, 2002 8:59 am
Subject: Re: [TML] mines

<<snip>> 
> 
> You should also remember how much space these layers take up.  For a
> 400 dton ship, each layer consumes at least 10 dtons or so.  Since
> they're no better protection than solid armour against anything bigger
> than a centimetre or so at starship combat speeds (or any starship
> weapons), it seems like a pretty poor deal to me.
> 
> I don't think Traveller ships would bother with spaced armour, since
> their costs are so heavily volume-dependent.

What I've done on some of my FF&S2 designs is place additional armor on 
certain components, such as the power plant and drive sections.  Thus, 
while a shot may penetrate the main hull armor, it often doesn't have 
the energy left to pepentrate the additional armor to damage the 
component within.  _Montana_ takes advantage of this, as does Rob Day's 
IW-era _Vanguard_ ship design.

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Rampart/2555/vanguard.htm



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 01:43:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Sat Aug 10 00:43:10 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
Message-ID: <000001c2403c$3dbce440$8bdad63f@customer>

John Scarlett wrote:
 Mark Urbin responds:
> >The fact is that the OTU as it stands is contradictory, inconsistent and,
at
> >times, unworkable.
> >It's a mish-mash put together by dozens of different people with no
apparent
> >continuity control.
>
> Well, some...but even works by single authors show inconsistencies.
> I'm sure folks in the list can give multiple examples in popular fiction.
>
> >There doesn't appear to have been any effort to make the various rules
sets
> >mesh together either.
>
> Hmmmm....and the business model for making GT mesh to CT rules?

Well, I guess the headmaster caught me making broad, unsupported statements
again. ;-)  But seriously, communication isn't my strong suit.  If I speak
more than 20 words a day to someone other than myself, or the cats and dogs,
I'm being effusive.  The fact that I can type more words than I'll ever
speak in my lifetime, doesn't change the fact that I'm not a good
communicator.

So, my above statements don't accurately reflect the point that I was trying
to make.  When I talk about the rules sets not meshing, I mean that how
things work is different from rules set to rules set so that your not able
to do some things in one rules set that you could with another rules set.
This doesn't allow for much meaningful discussion of how things work between
people who are using different rules sets.

As for the OTU, I was blissfully happy with it until I joined the TML.  It's
the various threads on 'How This doesn't work' and 'How does That really
work?' that have led me to the conclusion that there's something not quite
right with the OTU.

Frankly I don't know why I'm making such a fuss.  I've always believed that
I should do what I want IMTU and I should let everybody else do what they
want in their TU's.  The OTU is vague enough to allow for many different
interpretations.  Maybe it was designed to be that way on purpose.

John Scarlett




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 01:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 10 00:49:02 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
 CHALLENGE)
Message-ID: <5b2a125b101f.5b101f5b2a12@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
Date: Saturday, August 10, 2002 4:34 am
Subject: Re: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in 
traveller CHALLENGE)

<<snip>>
> 
>  >If planets are so self sufficient, then why does TNE describe 
> planets  >failing because they were cut off from interstellar trade?
> 
> The answer is that TNE does *not* describe planets failing because
> they were cut off from interstellar trade.
> 
> TNE describes planets failing because they have been torn by sabotage,
> subversion by hostile life-forms, warfare, looting, and numerous other
> factors not particularly related to loss of trade.  It is hence
> irrelevant to the preceding discussion.

My take would be that loss of trade became a factor in causing failure 
on worlds that depended on off-world life support tech to maintain 
habitability.  Under normal circumstances, they would be viable for 
quite some time (probably centuries) before a loss of trade would 
deplete spare parts to the point that life support fails.  With the 
destruction wrought by Black War (let alone Virus), a loss of trade 
means that spare parts used to repair war-damaged systems can't be 
replaced, leading to the acceleration of life support failure.

<<snip>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 02:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug 10 01:09:02 2002
Subject: Armor Schemes (was: Re: [TML] mines)
In-Reply-To: <5b9b0f5ba833.5ba8335b9b0f@us.army.mil>
References: <5b9b0f5ba833.5ba8335b9b0f@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <20020810180812.B6285@freeman.little-possums.net>

john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:
> What I've done on some of my FF&S2 designs is place additional armor on 
> certain components, such as the power plant and drive sections.

Yes, that works in GURPS Vehicles too.  However, it usually works out
cheaper and more reliable to just have multiple drives and power
plants, so that loss of one or two merely reduces capacity somewhat.

There is one major exception: the jump coils.  They are compact, vital
to mobility, and very expensive.  You should definitely armour them
separately if you expect to see combat.  The main bridge is another
reasonable candidate.  It is not too hard to put DR 30000 on each
without impacting on performance in other ways.

It is not clear to me whether you can have internal meson screens.  If
you can, then a DR 60000 screen should probably be put in as well.

Of course, neither is going to do much against a standard missile
doing 6d x 4000 (5).  Half a million points of armour is really just
getting silly (and infeasible).  :/


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 02:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug 10 01:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <20809.200112.4y7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <ML-2.3.1028582658.5758.ajackson@ping> <20809.200112.4y7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020810185016.C6285@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Except that a synethic aperture sensor using fighters well away from
> the ship will *always* have better resolution than any array the
> ship can carry because resolution depends on *width* of the sensor.

Yes, I've always thought that ships's sensors should consist at least
partly of externally deployed units.  Putting those units on fighters
seems a little odd, though.  Surely you want them to be unmanned for
an absolute minimum of uncontrolled vibration and other bad
influences.

If you're doing visible interferometry, then half a micrometre of
uncompensated motion means uselessness.  Far-IR work is almost as bad,
and requires low thermal noise as well.  Shorter wavelengths don't
need external interferometry, since a single ship can theoretically
obtain all the resolution it would want from its own hull-mounted
detectors.

I envisage most detection taking place via far IR (heat radiation),
optionally followed by ladar tracking.  A synthetic aperture of a
kilometre or so diameter should give resolution at million kilometre
range (60 G:Traveller hexes) of about 10 metres in passive IR, without
being too cumbersome in the number and positioning of external
elements.

Naturally, it makes no sense to have resolution finer than the size of
region from which you can pick up a single photon per unit of time in
which you are interested.  Nor does it make sense to have your
external stations so far out that you can't constantly monitor their
position to within half a wavelength.  These factors will limit the
size of any synthetic aperture array.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 04:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sat Aug 10 03:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <200208091312.MKB02981@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D558F56.25375.B1AA6F1@localhost>

On 9 Aug 2002, at 9:12, John T. Kwon wrote:

> the problem is that the nature of the observation will force 
> a photon to the left or the right - an observation that is 
> taken perhaps a billion years after the photon departed. 

Working from my laymans knowledge of quantum mechanics, I believe 
there is no violation of causality here. Several billion years ago the photon 
leaves the quasar, it then travels all potential paths to the observer in 
variant probabilities, the photon then arrives at earth where the act of 
observeration selects which of the variant probabilities becomes part of 
reality. See, no violation of causality (a splitting headache maybe, but no 
violation of causality)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 04:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 03:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
In-Reply-To: <OFBA2D763C.F2E139E2-ONCA256C0E.000A4049@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20810.001307.7E6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I'd been thinking about this for a while, too. A copyright question that I 
> don't know the answer to is, "Is it 'fair use' if I put a Jesse picture on 
> ONE T-Shirt for my own use?"

Actually, given *some* of us in this group, an "I <heart> HE" shirt
like Ditzie's might do well, and could be sold to the mainstream.

Which reminds me:

http://jokeworm.com/AToons/AT280.jpg

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 04:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 03:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <3d51707a.2567266@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20810.031716.6F9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng) writes:
>
>>Thanks.  Anybody can provide with how the Royal Navy does it?  Has the =
> USN
>>changed anything from the afore-explained procedure?=20
>
> I always liked David Weber's change of command ceremonies in the Honor
> Harrington books, but I don't know whether they're based on genuine
> Napoleonic-era Royal Navy practice or just something DW made up...
>
> (in brief, the new Captain is welcomed on board the ship as a visiting
> senior officer, is escorted to the bridge, makes an all-hands
> announcement in which (s)he reads aloud the written orders from the
> Admiralty directing him/her "To proceed aboard Her Majesty's Starship
> <Foo>, there to take upon yourself the duties and responsibilities of
> commanding officer in the service of the Crown"; after which the new
> Captain formally tells the previous (acting) commander "I assume
> command".)

C.S. Forester had Horatio Hornblower doing the same thing, so it's
*probably* authentic.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 05:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith Mormon minion of Arioch)
Date: Sat Aug 10 04:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
References: <000001c2401f$59029320$33c3d63f@customer>
Message-ID: <010001c2405d$3515c2f0$6f7ba8c0@kenneith93j41k>

Well just go by what the little black books say and you will be happy, oh no
wait that is my solution
:)
ken

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comics
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you
http://www.geocities.com/J_Elric_Smith/Index.html
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Scarlett" <jlscarlett@earthlink.net>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 11:36 PM
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.


> Bruce Johnson wrote:
> > >The fact that they all share remarkable similarities in background
> > >story is mere coincidence ;-)
>
> Tim Little wrote:
> >Sort of makes a shambles of the acronym "OTU" though :(
>
> The fact is that the OTU as it stands is contradictory, inconsistent and,
at
> times, unworkable.
> It's a mish-mash put together by dozens of different people with no
apparent
> continuity control.
>
> There doesn't appear to have been any effort to make the various rules
sets
> mesh together either.
>
> John Scarlett
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 05:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sat Aug 10 04:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
In-Reply-To: <3D556531.21647.F79DE@localhost>
References: <F24qs1wP7vvqgqGTwgT0000593c@hotmail.com> <3D556531.21647.F79DE@localhost>
Message-ID: <3d55f441.2663671@post.demon.co.uk>

"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:

>> The Zho's over-reached themselves, in my opinion.  They didn't =
properly=20
>> understand the strength of the Imperium's "defense in depth" concept, =
nor=20
>> the tenacity of local forces.
>
>The latter is perhaps understandable, as in previous wars they didn't=20
>seem to have much trouble 'persuading' systems to leave the Imperium.=20

Well, naturally they didn't have much trouble "persuading" the local
inhabitants... they *are* dirty mindraping brainwashing Joe scum,
after all...

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 05:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 04:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <003c01c23dc2$11fe1850$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <20810.032526.5d5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Eric Frank Russell never became as famous as many of the other Hugo
> Winners, but some of his novels have recently been re-issued and are
> available at Amazon(1). Shadow Man: The life and works of Eric Frank
> Russell(2) is a good fan site. For some reviews of some of Russell's
> other works, visit this site(3).

I hope the re-issue "The Great Explosion". Or a book containing all the
stories from it. 

It has some *very* odd societies that any Traveller referree can swipe
to put on Earthlike worlds. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 05:23:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 04:23:18 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <e4e645e4c45c.e4c45ce4e645@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <20810.031820.6v4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Jeff D. Greenly" says
>> <snip naval change of command>
>> 
>> Don't forget - the outgoing commander has to do an inventory 
>> with the new commander, and the new commander gets to sign 
>> for the ship and all of the equipment in it.
>
> Anybody know if a _Nimitz_-class CVN has a National Stock Number? ;-)
>
> As the incoming captain signs a one-page hand receipt for "Carrier, 
> Aircraft, Nuclear-Powered, w/ancillary equipment"...then spends the next 
> week signing all the annexes to the hand receipt....

Eric Frank Russell's short story "Allamagoosa" has an interesting
example of what can happen. 

"V1098. Offog, one."

(You can find the story in "the Hugo Winners, Volume I")

And there's a bit in "Starship Troopers" about what happens when you
fail to doublecheck the inventory before taking over from someone.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 05:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 10 04:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
Message-ID: <200208101154.MLV00593@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson says
>So? The effect (left or right) still *has* a cause (the 
observation). 
>
>So *global* causality is upheld. Local isn't.
>

The problem is that the photon changed course billions of 
years ago, before the Earth existed, before people existed, 
before the detector existed.  But the act of observing forces 
a change - a change that takes place before the observation.

It's as though an observation in the present writes the past, 
which is what Wheeler talks about.  Results preceding the 
initiating action.  Wheeler says in one of his books that the 
act of observing writes and decides the past - it's not 
really observing, since by changing the methods of 
observation, we can get a different result.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 06:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 10 05:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller - more
Message-ID: <200208101200.MLV00743@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson says
>Even so, anything that can make an FGMP or air raft fusion 
>plant work, could probably make a "pure" fusion bomob that 
>wasn't overly huge. Say the size of an early atomic bomb. 

Fusion weapons without fission triggers are under 
consideration now.  Work was done in Poland as early as 1976 
on a biconical shaped charge and tritium gas that achieved a 
nominal fusion result.  The development was intended to 
produce a torpedo warhead - the prototype device was small 
enough to fit on a tabletop.

Probably the closest thing today would be magnetized target 
fusion.  You'll need a plasma source, and a power source much 
smaller than you might think, because once the plasma is 
initially confined, the final compression can be done by 
explosives.

The work on non-fission devices has a primary design goal of 
very small packages, very small yields.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 06:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sat Aug 10 05:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Uthe
In-Reply-To: <20020810065021.7C9C72793A@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <3.0.6.32.20020809211618.00a919f0@minn.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020810071405.00a98100@minn.net>

At 01:50 AM 8/10/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>On 08/09/02 at 09:16 PM,  Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net> said:
>
>>At 09:28 PM 8/9/2002 EDT, GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:
>>>Les writes:
>>>
>>>>Where can I find UWP stats for the Uthe subsector? Canon if possible.
>
>>>That would be in Foreven Sector? Canon for the entire sector comprises one 
>>>set, out of many, of subsector names, world *positions* and about seven
>>world 
>>>UWPs. That's it. Foreven was set aside (other than the above) as "not to
be 
>>>officially developed" by GDW late in the MT days.  The handfull of
official 
>>>bits were published in Imperiallines #1. Some details beyond this can be 
>>>found in the CT adventures in that sector.
>
>>Sorry, I believe that you are incorrect.
>
>>If I recall correctly the Foreven sector is spinward of the Spinward
>>Marches. The Uthe subsector is shown in Supplement 3 as being
>>immediately coreward of the Regina subsector. 
>
>Gvurrdon Sector/Subsector O -- Uthe
>
> I go to <http://zho.berka.com/data/CLASSIC/> for my OTU data needs.
><g>
>
>Eris
>-- 
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
>http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     My new first rule of advanced weapon testing: Make a backup 
copy of yourself before opening fire.
     --Kevyn, Schlock Mercenary, August 10, 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 06:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 10 05:15:03 2002
Subject: Armor Schemes (was: Re: [TML] mines)
Message-ID: <200208101214.MLV01175@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>Half a million points of armour is really just
>getting silly (and infeasible).  :/

If I'm the commander, and the bridge is armored that much 
more heavily than the rest of the ship, that's great - the 
rest of the ship can be blown completely away, but I'm going 
to survive the battle, tumbling end over end in what's left 
of the bridge.

If we have some backup power inside the bridge itself, we can 
make tea while waiting for the boarding party - or the second 
salvo.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 06:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sat Aug 10 05:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <20809.201248.7O9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <200208091312.MKB02981@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D55B66B.29635.222212@localhost>

On 9 Aug 2002, at 20:12, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> > the problem is that the nature of the observation will force 
> > a photon to the left or the right - an observation that is 
> > taken perhaps a billion years after the photon departed. 

> So? The effect (left or right) still *has* a cause (the observation). 

No, the effect that caused the proton to turn left or right was gravity and did 
occur billions of years ago. The observation is the effect that turns one of 
the two possibilities into reality. Up until the observation, both of the 
possibilities "exist" as probabilities, but the act of observation forces the 
universe to pick one.

> So *global* causality is upheld. Local isn't.

Both local and global causality are upheld.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 07:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 10 06:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 Lite
Message-ID: <609ee3606edd.606edd609ee3@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: James Ramsay <quakers_united@yahoo.com.au>
Date: Thursday, July 25, 2002 5:08 am
Subject: RE: [TML] T20 Lite

<<snip>>

 Which brings me to another point, is there any
> version of Trav where denser atmospheres affect
> lasers. Would this be a noticeable affect in RL.

FF&S2 for T4 has a table to calculate the effect of various atmosphere 
types on laser fire (my copy is in my barracks room, else I'd quote the 
table).  I suspect that FF&S (for TNE) also has this feature.

Sorry if someone already answered this; I'm still trying to catch up on 
a couple thousand TML posts....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 07:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sat Aug 10 06:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Uthe
In-Reply-To: <20020810065021.7C9C72793A@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <3.0.6.32.20020809211618.00a919f0@minn.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020810084457.00a92520@minn.net>

At 01:50 AM 8/10/2002 -0500, Eris Reddoch wrote:

>Gvurrdon Sector/Subsector O -- Uthe
>
> I go to <http://zho.bekka.com/data/CLASSIC/> for my OTU data needs.
><g>
>
>Eris

Actually it's <http://zho.berka.com/data/CLASSIC/>

The maps aree in ASCII, which is really neat. 

Thank you.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     My new first rule of advanced weapon testing: Make a backup 
copy of yourself before opening fire.
     --Kevyn, Schlock Mercenary, August 10, 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 08:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat Aug 10 07:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <20810.032526.5d5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <003c01c23dc2$11fe1850$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <3D55CFD9.21732.1B01A6F@localhost>

On 10 Aug 2002 at 3:25, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
> 
> > Eric Frank Russell never became as famous as many of the other Hugo
> > Winners, but some of his novels have recently been re-issued and are
> > available at Amazon(1). Shadow Man: The life and works of Eric Frank
> > Russell(2) is a good fan site. For some reviews of some of Russell's
> > other works, visit this site(3).
> 
> I hope the re-issue "The Great Explosion". Or a book containing all the
> stories from it. 
> 
> It has some *very* odd societies that any Traveller referree can swipe
> to put on Earthlike worlds. 

I always liked "Stronger than a thousand Gands, and smoother than an 
Earthman's downfall" from that book.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 09:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 08:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <m365ymsna4.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20810.073205.2D4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> "Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> writes:
>> 
>> At the current rates of extinction, somewhere between every six
>> months and two years (depending on which biologist you listen to) we
>> destroy one undiscovered medicine.
>
> We destroy one natural source of an undiscovered medicine, perhaps.
> But we can synthesise just about anything these days.  My best friend
> is a biochemist (well, almost--getting his PhD in a year), and if I
> remember our conversations correctly, most biochemistry these days is
> _not_ `oh, some old wives' tale says this is good; let's try it,' but
> rather `let's see which substances we can squeeze through _this_
> barrier,' i.e. it's pretty much known what most substances are going
> to do; the trick is to get them through cell walls, preserve them
> until they hit the right parts of the body, keep them from hitting the
> wrong parts.

Either he was simplifying things for you or you missed an important
detail.

We know what certain types of molecules do. And we have a good idea of
what making changes to them *might* do.

The reason we need to keep searching is because we are a *long* way
from being able to tell *in advance* what a new molecular structure
might do. 

The number of possible organic molecule structures is sufficiently huge
that checking for biological effects of natural compounds is *much*
faster than trying to synthesize things at "random". 

> The company he's interning with essentially takes a patented molecule,
> developes a thousand variations on it, and sells those variations back
> to the original patenter, IIRC.

Right. They are trying *variations* on molecules that are known to have
desireable biological effects. Partly to improve effectiveness, partly
to lessen undesirable side effects.

But that's a long ways from coming up with "original" molecular
structures that have desirable properties from scratch.

The way cells work is not something we understand at the required level
of detail. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 09:06:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 08:06:19 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <p04330109b977629d272b@[198.123.22.179]>
Message-ID: <20810.074124.2A3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>Sufficiently advanced technology makes life on an airless
>>rockball possible - why would such a species need to preserve
>>its wildlife?
>
> Well, if we assume that the airless rockball is totally self 
> suficient (not just sufficient over a timescale of week or months) I 
> see two reasons...
>
> 1) Economics, a natural ecosystem maintains itself (and hence is a 
> lot cheaper).
> 2) Comfort, just because the rockball is livable, doesn't mean it 
> produces everything people would want.

Also, if a planet *isn't* an airless rockball, but is moderately
livable, killing off the wrong thing (or introducing the wrong thing)
may screw up the ecosystem faster than you can build life support for
the current population, much less evacuate them.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 09:06:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 08:06:38 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020807171434.GA26680@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <20810.074416.5U2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 09:26:27AM -0600, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
>> > At the current rates of extinction, somewhere between every six
>> > months and two years (depending on which biologist you listen to) we
>> > destroy one undiscovered medicine.
>> 
>> We destroy one natural source of an undiscovered medicine, perhaps.
>> But we can synthesise just about anything these days.  
>
> Well, yes, but wouldn't it be a bit easier to synthesise a compound if
> you had it beforehand, instead of trying to duplicate the effects from
> an old tale?

More to the point, unless we already *have* a compound that shows
effects similar to those we want, we mostly have no idea how to design
a molecule to produce a given effect.

>
> -- 
> Mikko Parviainen
> "I quote signatures."
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 09:06:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 08:06:53 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <m37kj2r2wf.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20810.074619.7G6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> "Mikko V.I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi> writes:
>>
>> > We destroy one natural source of an undiscovered medicine,
>> > perhaps.  But we can synthesise just about anything these days.
>> 
>> Well, yes, but wouldn't it be a bit easier to synthesise a compound
>> if you had it beforehand, instead of trying to duplicate the effects
>> from an old tale?
>
> But that's the point: as I understand it we've pretty well exhausted
> the use of old tales and have moved on.  Not that I discount the
> possibility that a remarkable new medicine could be lurking in the
> rainforest; simply that I discount the probability.
>
> As I understand it, science understand the effects of most substances:

We understand the effects of the substances we *know*. As in we know
*what* eefects they have. In many cases we aren't always sure *why*. 

> the trick is to get them where they're needed and not where they're
> not.  Which means designing a molecule which will let a drug slip
> through one barrier but not another.  Which is tricky.

That's true.

We just plain *can't* design a molecule from scratch to have a *new*
effect. We don't understand the inner working of the cell well enough.

We do have a fair amount of understandng of the cell membranes now.
Enough that we have some idea as to what changes might make a molecule
get thru more easily. But even then we have to try them, because we
don't know if the changes will compromise the therapeutic effects.

It does little good to get a variant that gets inside easily if in the
process we make it quit doing what we wanted it to do once it gets
there. Or if we add a nasty side effect.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 09:07:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 08:07:10 2002
Subject: [TML] John Beats The Dead Horse of Imperial Rules Of War...
In-Reply-To: <OFB4C576D0.DD4913B9-ONCA256C0F.00177D95@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20810.075328.3g6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I believe that mercenaries, available and used in the standard way that 
> Trav says they are used, would only be possible under the canonical "Rules 
> of War" scheme. That is, with merc troops being recognised as legitimate 
> forces, with repatriation bonds, etc. Exactly what David Drake writes 
> about - I'm sure he must have cribbed a bit from Traveller.

Actually, Traveller borrowed that from him if I recall correctly.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 09:07:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 08:07:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <OFBDFF848E.6EC3E744-ONCA256C0E.0009E3EB@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20810.075757.1b1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Dear Folks -
>
> Leonard wrote:
>>If we can't follow our own laws except when it is convenient, we are
>>all at the mercy of anybody in a position of authorty.
>
> Welcome to the "rule of men, not laws".

Which is why the Imperium is an interesting place to play in, but not
necessarily to live in.

> BTW, did you receive the Straker Theme I sent over?

Yes, I haven't gotten around to extracting the files yet.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 09:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 10 08:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Uthe
Message-ID: <43.fb9fa6e.2a868beb@aol.com>

In a message dated 8/10/02 5:14:55 AM, tml-request@travellercentral.com 
writes:

>>>>>Where can I find UWP stats for the Uthe subsector? Canon if possible.
>>
>>>>That would be in Foreven Sector? Canon for the entire sector comprises
>one 
>>>>set, out of many, of subsector names, world *positions* and about seven
>>>world 
>>>>UWPs. That's it. Foreven was set aside (other than the above) as "not
>to
>be 
>>>>officially developed" by GDW late in the MT days.  The handfull of
>official 
>>>>bits were published in Imperiallines #1. Some details beyond this can
>be 
>>>>found in the CT adventures in that sector.
>>
>>>Sorry, I believe that you are incorrect.
>>
>>>If I recall correctly the Foreven sector is spinward of the Spinward
>>>Marches. The Uthe subsector is shown in Supplement 3 as being
>>>immediately coreward of the Regina subsector. 
>>
>>Gvurrdon Sector/Subsector O -- Uthe

Ah, of course. Teach me (tho' probably not) to go from memory instead of 
looking it up.  Canon info for Gvurrdon comes from the original CT Vargr 
module, as well as the DGP version for MT. Not a lot to be had, but the CT 
module has the complete map and sector listing (sans names) in the back. 
Tidbits appear elsewhere, I'm sure. Since this IS Vargr space, you may want 
to generate two sets of world names: one for what the Imperium calls a world 
on its charts, and sporadic name changes for some worlds to reflect the Vargr 
tendency to impermanence. I'm sure there's a name set already out there on 
the net somewhere...

As for the Foreven info, while not entirely relevant, it IS something that 
needs to be restated periodically.

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 10:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 10 09:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
In-Reply-To: <232810-22002859195212613@M2W075.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810092517.009fa210@mindspring.com>

At 03:52 PM 8/9/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
>
> >Most of the sound associated with weapons fire is the sound of the powder
> >going off.  The crack of the bullet is negligible.  For example, a silenced
> >.22LR is nearly silent in operation.
>
>Oh, come on, Doug.  You and I both know they're louder than that.
>While you certainly don't need hearing protection around one, they
>sound about like a large balloon being popped.  Even in an open
>outdoor area, I can hear one fire over 50 yds. away.  Now, if
>subsonic ammo is being used, it's a whole different story.

I saw a demonstration of a .22LR bolt-action pistol.  From five feet away I 
could barely detect the crack of the round.  Had I been downrange trying to 
determine where that shooter was, I would have been up a famous creek 
having mislaid my paddle.

> >A 4mm gauss round would make a high pitched *crack* audible only to
> > those near the flight path.
>
>With "near" probably meaning within 200 meters.  (This assumes a
>calm, clear day, across level terrain and with no significant
>background noise to mask the shot.)

Hmm.. I think 200m is a bit far, but unless one of is volunteering to crawl 
across the mud at your rifle club while the other fires suppresed rounds 
overehead...


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 10:53:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 10 09:53:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
In-Reply-To: <200208092111.MKR04077@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810092937.009f60f0@mindspring.com>

At 05:11 PM 8/9/02 -0400, you wrote:

>On a side note, I used to call the M-16 (without a
>suppressor) the Orville Redenbacher, because at a distance,
>it sounds like popcorn in the microwave.  Never really
>sounded like a real weapon to me.

 From what I understand, that made life in Vietnam a bit easier for the 
grunts.  If it sounds like a real weapon, it's our good friend Charles.  If 
it sounds like a toy gun, it's friendlies.

>I can't imagine lasers making any noise at all, unless you
>hit someone.  And if they aren't in the visible light range
>(ideal transmission is apparently in the near infrared for
>work in Earth's atmosphere), you won't see the near miss
>either.

I always gave them a very quiet hiss as the beam incinerated dust/water 
vapor in the beam path.  Any noise at all drowns it out.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 11:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug 10 10:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810092517.009fa210@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B97A97EE.69295%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/10/02 9:29 AM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:

>> Oh, come on, Doug.  You and I both know they're louder than that.
>> While you certainly don't need hearing protection around one, they
>> sound about like a large balloon being popped.  Even in an open
>> outdoor area, I can hear one fire over 50 yds. away.  Now, if
>> subsonic ammo is being used, it's a whole different story.
>=20
> I saw a demonstration of a .22LR bolt-action pistol.  From five feet away=
 I
> could barely detect the crack of the round.  Had I been downrange trying =
to
> determine where that shooter was, I would have been up a famous creek
> having mislaid my paddle.

That is the great advantage of the suppressed, supersonic round.  Even
though it makes noise, it is difficult if not impossible to locate the
shooter.  Particularly since the ballistic crack reflects off objects as th=
e
bullet passes them, making the source of the sound that much more
complicated to identify.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 11:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 10 10:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
In-Reply-To: <000001c2403c$3dbce440$8bdad63f@customer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810093741.009f6d90@mindspring.com>

At 03:03 AM 8/10/02 -0400, you wrote:

>So, my above statements don't accurately reflect the point that I was trying
>to make.  When I talk about the rules sets not meshing, I mean that how
>things work is different from rules set to rules set so that your not able
>to do some things in one rules set that you could with another rules set.
>This doesn't allow for much meaningful discussion of how things work between
>people who are using different rules sets.

Different designers, different design philosophies.  The economic rules 
were always geared to support the small independent trader.  Trying to 
develop the actual level of trade using rules in Merchant Prince or 
MegaTraveller while give bad results.

I avoid mechanic discussions like the plague.  I write for GURPS.  I *try* 
to make my stuff accessible to other players as well, but the mechanics 
will be different.  (Hell, the last Traveller game I actually played in was 
run under CORPS.)

>As for the OTU, I was blissfully happy with it until I joined the TML.  It's
>the various threads on 'How This doesn't work' and 'How does That really
>work?' that have led me to the conclusion that there's something not quite
>right with the OTU.

Of course there is something wrong!  It was designed piece by piece over 
the course of the last 25 years by dozens of different people working for 
different companies and with very different agendas.  It's history by 
committee.  There will be holes all over the place.  That's one of the 
things we do here is fill those holes, hence the current discussion of 
topics like the Fifth Frontier War and Arbellatra.  I can only speak for 
myself, but some of what it said here finds its way both into my games and 
my pay copy.

>Frankly I don't know why I'm making such a fuss.  I've always believed that
>I should do what I want IMTU and I should let everybody else do what they
>want in their TU's.  The OTU is vague enough to allow for many different
>interpretations.  Maybe it was designed to be that way on purpose.

Which is a healthy attitude.  After Ground Forces came out, i received a 
*scathing* email from a customer who quite literally told me he was going 
to complain to Steve Jackson and Marc Miller, through my book in the 
furnace, and demand that I never be hired to write another word for 
Traveller because I was a complete moron who obviously was out to ruin the 
entire game.  Why?

Because I put the Marines into kilts as part of their full dress 
uniform.  One paragraph, in a sidebar.  I wrote the person back and asked 
if he like the rest of the book, and if so, why didn't he ignore it?  I put 
it in for a reason, but if it makes him that mad, simply take a black 
Sharpie and line through the offending phrase.  Simple.  He actually wrote 
back saying that since it was in the book it meant that he *had* to do 
it.  I gave him official aithor dispensation to not have Marines in 
kilts.  Put 'em in clown suits for all I care.

Everything published, or written here, is subject to the interpetation and 
judgement of each player and referee.  Use what you want, change what you 
like, ignore that which annoys you.  This was part of the reason I 
suggested the Landgrab.. get involvement from people so we could see their 
views of this universe.  Nobody *has* to use them, but they make for some 
interesting data points.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 11:23:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 10 10:23:23 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
In-Reply-To: <20020810004141.99222.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810095614.00a07cf0@mindspring.com>

At 05:41 PM 8/9/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
> >The also ran into a wild card: Norris.  You can't predict an
> >unexpected enemy commander that is a bloody genius and has figured
> >out your plan.  I always wondered if Norris' branch of Naval
> >Intelligence hadn't actually learned bits and pieces of the Zhodani
> >plan.
>
>and then failed to disclose those bits and pieces to Sector Admiral
>Santanocheev, to destroy his credibility before the Emperor, and to
>allow the advance of other members of the INI cabal ... how paranoid
>are we?

Oh, I always know Norris was a bit of a Napoleon.  Let's see.  His elder 
brother dies, and he becomes Duke of Regina.  Santocheev, a pompous 
incompetent twit, has information held back by Norris' faction of Naval 
Intelligence, piddles all over himself and is removed in disgrace, allowing 
Norris to become a war hero.  Norris becomes Archduke.  Just me, or do I 
hear Strephon telling Norris "rid me of this bothersome Admiral."


> >The Zho's over-reached themselves, in my opinion.  They didn't
> >properly understand the strength of the Imperium's "defense in
> >depth" concept, nor the tenacity of local forces.
>
>Shtaliajtlas was an idiot, actually, who had not run enough
>simulations to know how to get and hold 300 points before the
>Imperium could react and start rolling the Zhodanis back.

We always played with the optional rules that capitals and high-pop worlds 
were both worth double VP.  Jewell and Rhylanor, 54 and 60VP respectively, 
were juicy targets.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption
abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every
man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the
end of the world is fast approaching."
- Assyrian Tablet, c.2800 BC




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 11:23:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 10 10:23:43 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810100309.00a046b0@mindspring.com>

Way OT, but as a hardcore Giants fan, I just gotta brag.

Last night, Barry Bonds hit his 600th career home run.  Next target: 661.

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
- Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 11:58:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat Aug 10 10:58:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Uthe
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020810084457.00a92520@minn.net>
Message-ID: <20020810175718.96C472793A@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/10/02 at 08:44 AM,  Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net> said:

>At 01:50 AM 8/10/2002 -0500, Eris Reddoch wrote:

>>Gvurrdon Sector/Subsector O -- Uthe
>>
>> I go to <http://zho.bekka.com/data/CLASSIC/> for my OTU data needs.
>><g>
>>
>>Eris

>Actually it's <http://zho.berka.com/data/CLASSIC/>

Oops! That's what I get for sending a post at 0150. <g> 

>The maps aree in ASCII, which is really neat. 

What's neatest, to me, is the data is available in Galactic format, so
I can download them directly to the proper directories and I've (more
or less) added another sector to my copy of the program.  But, yes,
the perl scripts that produce the ascii maps are neat, as are the java
programs. I'd love to see the code!

>Thank you.

You are welcome, but most of your thanks should go to the list owner.

Eris

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 12:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Aug 10 11:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <F52sKj9cMXF1UVkCUVP00005065@hotmail.com>

From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

     Way OT, but as a hardcore Giants fan, I just gotta brag.

     Last night, Barry Bonds hit his 600th career home run.  Next target: 
661.


Mr. Berry,

     With the "Say Hey Kid" as your godfather, you BETTER hit 600 plus!
     Now that the Olde Town Team is well into their patented summer swoon, 
following Mr. Bonds has given me great pleasure of late.  He hit one a few 
weeks ago that went so far there should have been a stewardess on it!
     Oops, gotta go, Hillenbrand just hit a double and the Flops have jumped 
out ahead of the amazin' Twins (downsize THIS Selig!).  With Pedro on the 
mound, one run might be all the Flops need.  Since the All-Star break, it 
seems Martinez can throw a porkchop past a wolf.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen E. "Goddam Red Sox!" Whipsnade

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 12:07:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 10 11:07:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
Message-ID: <200208101806.MMH01558@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry says

>Hmm.. I think 200m is a bit far, but unless one of is 
>volunteering to crawl across the mud at your rifle club 
>while the other fires suppresed rounds overehead...

Had an interesting day a long time ago.  We were at Range 14, 
one of the few known distance ranges at Ft. Campbell, in 
1988.  We took turns shooting an M-21 with suppressor.  While 
the shooter fired rounds in slow fire, we walked along the 
side berm, eventually moving from 100 meters directly behind 
the firer, to 100 meters directly to the right, then moving 
along the right berm, up to the 300 yard berm, moving along 
behind the berm as the rounds went overhead, and back down 
along the left berm.  The change in delay between thump of 
weapon and crack of bullet was extremely instructive.  If 
there are any other echo generating surfaces around, off axis 
between shooter and target, it's very confusing as to where 
things are.

There is still a thump from the weapon (muzzle noise), and 
there's more of a crack from a supersonic 7.62 than we later 
heard from a M-16 round.  I might note that the more modern 
suppressor we saw on the M-16 was a lot better than the 
ancient thing on the M-21.

Tod may shed some light on it, but there didn't seem to be a 
way to take apart the newer models of these things.  They 
didn't have relief valves, either.  On the old suppressor, 
you could see how the front plate of the suppressor was 
screwed in - and how you could possibly remove it.  The 
suppressor (unidentified) that I saw on the M-16 was fatter, 
shorter, and had no obvious means of dismantling it.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 12:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Sat Aug 10 11:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F163A@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Good idea!  Hadn't really thought of that one (yet).  I'll add it to the list of Famille Spofulam stuff I'm working on.
Jesse

> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com [mailto:shadow@krypton.rain.com]
> Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 1:13 AM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
> 
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > I'd been thinking about this for a while, too. A copyright 
> question that I 
> > don't know the answer to is, "Is it 'fair use' if I put a 
> Jesse picture on 
> > ONE T-Shirt for my own use?"
> 
> Actually, given *some* of us in this group, an "I <heart> HE" shirt
> like Ditzie's might do well, and could be sold to the mainstream.
> 
> Which reminds me:
> 
> http://jokeworm.com/AToons/AT280.jpg
> 
> -- 
> Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 12:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug 10 11:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
In-Reply-To: <200208101806.MMH01558@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B97AAB5A.692AC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/10/02 11:06 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> Tod may shed some light on it, but there didn't seem to be a
> way to take apart the newer models of these things.  They
> didn't have relief valves, either.  On the old suppressor,
> you could see how the front plate of the suppressor was
> screwed in - and how you could possibly remove it.  The
> suppressor (unidentified) that I saw on the M-16 was fatter,
> shorter, and had no obvious means of dismantling it.

One of the 'features' of modern suppressors from the big name vendors (AWC,
Gemtech, etc) is that they are sealed.  This is mainly for two reasons.  Th=
e
first (the one the vendor gives) is to keep precision components in
alignment and free from damage.  But the main reason is to protect
proprietary designs.  They don't want you to see how they work, and most
people aren't going to cut apart a $500 dollar, registered suppressor just
to find out.

For the military, this is not an issue.  A suppressor is a disposable item.
For the civilian user, this is another matter.  Suppressors are registered,
and sending them back for service is a bureaucratic nightmare.  Suppressors
do get dirty, and do require cleaning.  IMHO, a suppressor that cannot be
stripped for cleaning is just asking for trouble.  My own designs are simpl=
e
to disassemble, and while not as efficient as some of the 'big name'
suppressors, are infinitely easier to maintain.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 12:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug 10 11:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Stripmime
In-Reply-To: <20809.034100.0C2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <B97AAB99.692AD%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/9/02 4:41 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:

> In mail you write:
>=20
>> Someone on the TML kindly modified Stripmime to allow messages without a
>> content type to get posted on the list (A fix for Leonard).  If that per=
son
>> still has a copy, could they please contact me.  I've lost the original =
that
>> you sent me.
>=20
> If it runs on Intel family CPUs under DOS, Windoze, or OS/2, I'd be
> interested in a copy..

It's written in perl.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 13:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Sat Aug 10 12:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <F52sKj9cMXF1UVkCUVP00005065@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020810190015.25320.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>

> From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
> 
>      Way OT, but as a hardcore Giants fan, I just
> gotta brag.
> 
>      Last night, Barry Bonds hit his 600th career
> home run.  Next target: 
> 661.

Only one of four players in the 600+ club.  It is
truly amazing, but my favorite comment was...

"As amazing as it is, he is still 155 away from Hank. 
Sorta puts Hank's achievement in perspective."

I was really glad for Barry.  Hopefully he can break
615 or 620 this year and stick around for a couple
more and get close to 755.

(BTW, my second favorite line was by Barry himself
giving Nenn his dues and asking the reporters if he
could go home the night he hit 599.)

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 13:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 10 12:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
Message-ID: <6b20b06ad2b2.6ad2b26b20b0@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Date: Saturday, August 10, 2002 7:29 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...

> At 03:52 PM 8/9/02 -0400, you wrote:

<<snip\..
> >
> >With "near" probably meaning within 200 meters.  (This assumes a
> >calm, clear day, across level terrain and with no significant
> >background noise to mask the shot.)
> 
> Hmm.. I think 200m is a bit far, but unless one of is volunteering 
> to crawl 
> across the mud at your rifle club while the other fires suppresed 
> rounds 
> overehead...

Well, if I can ever make it to an Oregon shoot (IOW, if I can avoid yet 
another mobilization long enough to make it up there), I'll volunteer.  
After all, as a paratrooper, I've been taught that I'm very 
bullet-resistant. ;-)

Of course, given my MOS and assigned (_not_ chosen!) target language, 
that could be a couple of decades from now.... :-(


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 14:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 10 13:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <6b60e36b77b9.6b77b96b60e3@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Date: Saturday, August 10, 2002 8:04 pm
Subject: [TML] OT: Barry Bonds

> Way OT, but as a hardcore Giants fan, I just gotta brag.
> 
> Last night, Barry Bonds hit his 600th career home run.  Next 
> target: 661.

Who cares [*].  Barry Bonds will _still_ never be fit to wash Big Mac's 
skivvies.... ;-)

ObTrav: Change the game from baseball to gravball, change the names from 
Mark McGwire and Barry Bonds to something a bit more Travelleresque (or 
not), and you can use the "who's greater?" discussion practically 
verbatim.

[*] Says someone who definitively bleeds Cardinals Red [**].... ;-)

[**] Although I do indeed bleed Cardinals Red when sliced and/or diced, 
I prefer to keep my blood going round and round, rather than spurting 
out in great gouts....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 14:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 10 13:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <200208102021.MML01580@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Paul Walker says
>"As amazing as it is, he is still 155 away from Hank. 
>Sorta puts Hank's achievement in perspective."

I'm waiting for the genetically modified players to come out.

Mind you, I might be 80 years old when that happens.

Then, baseball as we know it will be over, and the far future 
will have begun.

________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 14:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 10 13:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
Message-ID: <200208102027.MMM00032@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

john.groth@us.army.mil  says
>Of course, given my MOS and assigned (_not_ chosen!) target 
>language, that could be a couple of decades from now.... :-(

Just stay above ground.  Every day above ground is a good 
day.  Learning the language is not going to be the hard part 
in the future of RL.  There are just some really wicked NPCs 
out and about...

I didn't find modern hebrew that difficult to learn on my 
own.  I think it would be easier to learn to speak Arabic 
than to read it (I've a smattering of Chinese, but it's all 
conversational - I can't read at all).

Then there's the ancient stuff - the old hebrew and aramaic - 
but if you're a gearhead, this sort of stuff is interesting.

It could be worse.  Imagine trying to find some place alone 
in the barracks so you can practice your Vargr.  Or maybe 
while you're the SDNCO, it's 0200, and you figure you can 
just start barking...

So, was Donald Sutherland speaking Vargr when he played 
Oddball in Kelly's Heroes?
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 14:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 10 13:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day
Message-ID: <200208102032.MMN00082@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Groth has another long night as SDNCO.  Routine, and 
routinely boring.  After all, Imperial peacekeeping duty on 
Garda-Vilis has been going on for over 20 years....

Still, he's trying to keep sharp, and learn new skills.  He's 
hoping to improve his language skill in Vargr.

The corporal sitting next to him is engrossed in the latest 
military tri-D.  Groth goes into the battalion office - 
hopefully he can keep this private.

Unbeknownst to Groth, the S3 is keeping a late night, and 
comes around to the office area.  Groth, engrossed in his 
woofing, doesn't notice the major looking at him.

The major clears his throat.  He knows Groth is working hard, 
but he's never gotten used to the idea of men growling and 
barking like dogs. 

"Carry on, sergeant."

________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 14:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Sat Aug 10 13:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Fire, Fusion, & Steel (TNE version) Thruster question
Message-ID: <20020810204013.8336.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>

No, I'm not gonna ask about T-plates and HEPlaR. ;)

I'm trying to design my very first Missile.  The
EAPlaC is driving me nuts.  The text says (pg 70, top
column 2):

** The values shown for the EAPlaC and fusion rockets
are the _minimum_ thrust ratings per engine.

The number in the table for EAPlaC is 100.  So does
that mean that I have to design the Solid Rocket Fuel
Propulsion part of the missile to handle 100 Tonnes of
thrust?  That (if I'm reading right) would be an
additional mass of 30 tonnes to my tiny missile!?!?!?!

Arggg.  If someone who loves this stuff would be
willing to talk me through the entire design off list,
I'd really appreciate it.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 16:03:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sat Aug 10 15:03:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Settlement date of Vilis
In-Reply-To: <20020810050803.5872.3294.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208102340010.8945-100000@ask.diku.dk>

John T. Kwon writes:
>The Sword Worlds had their first interstellar government, the
>Sacnoth Dominate, in -186, and lasting to -102, when
>rebellion broke it up.

Do you have a subscription to JTAS Online? If so, you may want to take a
look at two capaign settings I've written about the Sacnoth Dominate and
the Five States Era (the period between the rise of new interstellar
societies following the devastation of the War of the First Rebellion and
the formation of the Triple Dominion).

>Garda-Vilis is supposedly settled in -121 as Tanoose.

-121 according to _Broadsword_, -120 according to _Regency Sourcebook_. I
myself goes with the first date. The settlement fails after a few decades.

>I am presuming that Vilis itself is settled before -121.

No, Vilis isn't settled until 240[*]. It is settled from Gungnir.
Garda-Vilis, as it is renamed, is 'settled' from Vilis in 290. Just what
happens isn't clear, but this is the period of the 'Squabbling States' (my
term[**]) which lies between the fall of the Triple Dominion in 217 and
the formation of the military government that unites the Sword Worlds at
the beginning of the 1st Frontier War, so I don't think it will be
difficult to come up with some military or economic upset that makes
Tanoose vulnerable to Vilisian military adventurism. Though Vilis will
need to be an unusually well-organized and unusually successful colony
venture in order to grow to a point where it can impose its will on a
long-established world in just 50 years.

[*] In 300 the Sword Worlds are divided into five interstellar states, in
    400 nine, in 500 eight, and in 589 five.

John T. Kwon writes:

>I'm putting the settlement date of Vilis down as -240, some time before
>the Sacnoth Dominate, and the colonists leaving from Gungnir.
>
>Any thoughts?

See above.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 16:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 10 15:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Settlement date of Vilis
Message-ID: <200208102222.MMP01599@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen says
>No, Vilis isn't settled until 240[*]. It is settled from 
>Gungnir.
>Garda-Vilis, as it is renamed, is 'settled' from Vilis in 
>290. Just what happens isn't clear, but this is the period 
>of the 'Squabbling States' (my term[**]) which lies between 
>the fall of the Triple Dominion in 217 and the formation of 
>the military government that unites the Sword Worlds at
>the beginning of the 1st Frontier War, so I don't think it 
>will be difficult to come up with some military or economic 
>upset that makes Tanoose vulnerable to Vilisian military 
>adventurism. Though Vilis will need to be an unusually well-
>organized and unusually successful colony venture in order 
>to grow to a point where it can impose its will on a
>long-established world in just 50 years.


That's the problem I had with the positive 240 date.  It 
would have to be a societal miracle on the scale of the Meiji 
Period in real life.  Japan going from 16th to 20th century 
in 40 years - and being able to project credible military 
power at the end of that period.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 16:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug 10 15:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <3D558F56.25375.B1AA6F1@localhost>
References: <200208091312.MKB02981@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <3D558F56.25375.B1AA6F1@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020811082836.A12196@freeman.little-possums.net>

Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
> it then travels all potential paths to the observer in variant
> probabilities, the photon then arrives at earth where the act of
> observeration selects which of the variant probabilities becomes
> part of reality.

Or depending upon your interpretation, the observer's state is
correlated with the photon's state.  Some people hold that the act of
observation has no special privileges in determining reality. :)


> See, no violation of causality (a splitting headache maybe, but no
> violation of causality)

Yes; whichever interpretation you adopt, there is no causality
violation.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 16:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug 10 15:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <200208101154.MLV00593@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208101154.MLV00593@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020811083334.B12196@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> But the act of observing forces a change - a change that takes place
> before the observation.

As I understand it, that particular interpretation isn't widely held
among physicists these days.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 16:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug 10 15:53:02 2002
Subject: Armor Schemes (was: Re: [TML] mines)
In-Reply-To: <200208101214.MLV01175@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208101214.MLV01175@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020811085247.C12196@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> If we have some backup power inside the bridge itself, we can make
> tea while waiting for the boarding party - or the second salvo.

I did specify that the jump coils were protected too -- pity the fuel
wasn't.  It's mainly useful if your side survives the engagement,
because you can probably rebuild around the jump drive even if the
rest of the ship is fubar.

Just out of interest, half a million points of advanced TL12 ablative
armour around a command bridge, and small power plant costs 25 MCr and
has a mass of 1400 tonnes.  Not completely infeasible, but massive
enough to impact performance.  The same amount of armour around a
jump-2 drive in a 10k dton ship would mass 20k tonnes and cost 340 MCr.
It would be protecting a 900 MCr piece of equipment.

If the rest of the ship is destroyed, it doesn't do you a lot of good
in a military sense.  If it isn't, you may well be able to activate
your working jump drive and get out of there before it is.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 16:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat Aug 10 15:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810095614.00a07cf0@mindspring.com>
References: <20020810004141.99222.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3D564265.28016.138F15@localhost>

On 10 Aug 2002 at 10:01, Douglas Berry wrote:

> >Shtaliajtlas was an idiot, actually, who had not run enough
> >simulations to know how to get and hold 300 points before the
> >Imperium could react and start rolling the Zhodanis back.
> 
> We always played with the optional rules that capitals and high-pop worlds 
> were both worth double VP.  Jewell and Rhylanor, 54 and 60VP respectively, 
> were juicy targets.

That would make going all the way to Regina more attractive, too.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 17:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat Aug 10 16:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Fire, Fusion, & Steel (TNE version) Thruster question
In-Reply-To: <20020810204013.8336.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3D5643D4.830.1928BE@localhost>

On 10 Aug 2002 at 13:40, Paul Walker wrote:

> No, I'm not gonna ask about T-plates and HEPlaR. ;)
> 
> I'm trying to design my very first Missile.  The
> EAPlaC is driving me nuts.  The text says (pg 70, top
> column 2):
> 
> ** The values shown for the EAPlaC and fusion rockets
> are the _minimum_ thrust ratings per engine.
> 
> The number in the table for EAPlaC is 100.  So does
> that mean that I have to design the Solid Rocket Fuel
> Propulsion part of the missile to handle 100 Tonnes of
> thrust?  That (if I'm reading right) would be an
> additional mass of 30 tonnes to my tiny missile!?!?!?!

Yes it means that the EAPlaC has to produce 100 tons of thrust. However 
note that there's no requirement for it to do so for very long. One of 
those mines I recently posted had a 500kg EAPlaC rocket producing 100 
tons of thrust for about 30 seconds (0.0167 of BL's 30-minute turns).
 
> Arggg.  If someone who loves this stuff would be
> willing to talk me through the entire design off list,
> I'd really appreciate it.

Well send me what you've done and I'll take a look. Missile design is 
fairly stright forward, as you don't have to buy a hull, etc.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 17:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sat Aug 10 16:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <20020808171316.15286.91204.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208110115150.11066-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Alan Bradley writes:
>Gratuitous nepotism goes a long way. I don't see any particular problem
>about [Arbellatra] taking over the family business, especially during the
>Civil War, when warlordism was rife.

My take is that she is herself at least a duchess (or at least the heir
apparent to one). And I think you're right that the pre-Civil War navy was
more subject to favoritism than the USN -- sorry, I mean the Classic Era
IN ;-).

>A good staff will cover a multitude of sins, especially if it includes
>people like Soegz. In fact, Soegz may have been the real genius.

Another candidate for the title 'The real Genius' is Arbellatra's flag
captain Kevin Alderon. So far he is only mentioned in one place, namely
"The Alderon Diary", an Amber Zone I wrote for PYRAMID some years ago (I
know some people do not count that as canonical). He was Arbellatra's flag
captain at the end of the 2nd Frontier War and followed her to the
Imperial Core where he eventually became Grand Admiral of the Fleets and
1st Space Lord. Upon Arbellatra's death in 666 he retired to Kinorb where
he lived out his remaining years in obscurity. About 50 years ago he was
immortalized by an author named D.T. Woodsman who wrote a semi-biographical
bestseller about him and followed up with a dozen sequels (All of which
have since been turned into smash holo-dramas).

Here is a list of book titles and short summaries thereof that I worked
out for the books. Bear in mind that while they are supposedly semi-
biographical, the emphasis is in some cases on the semi. I would not, for
instance, put much faith in the supposed first meeting between him and
Arbellatra ;-)

"Young Lord Alderon"    Lishun 586      Young Kevin Alderon decides to
  					join the Navy.

"Ensign Alderon"        Core 588        Kevin Alderon attends Naval
					Academy on Capital.
|
|Never written                          Sublieutenant Alderon.
|

"Lieutenant Alderon"    Vland 594       Lieutenant Alderon foils Vargr
					spys and meets a young vargr named
					Soegz.

"Liutenant Alderon      Corridor 596    Lieutenant  Alderon  battles Vargr
 and the Raiders"                       raiders along the Corridor border.

"Lt. Cmdr. Alderon"     Deneb 600

"Commander Alderon"     Sp. Mar. 604

"Commander Alderon      Sp. Mar. 605    A   brilliant  young  ensign named
 and the ensign"                        Arbellatra  serves  under Commander
                                        Alderon who promotes  her over the
					head of older ensigns.

"Commander Alderon      Tr. Rch. 613    Commander Alderon protects a client
 and the _ihatei_"                      state in the Outrim Void from Aslan
                                        settlers, eventually finding alter-
                                        native land for the Aslans.

"Captain Alderon"       Sp. Mar. 615    The outbreak of the Second Frontier
                                        War  brings Kevin Alderon his long-
                                        deserved promotion to captain.

"Captain Alderon's      Sp. Mar. 619    Alderon becomes Flag Captain to Ar-
 Flag"                                  bellatra, the newly-appointed Grand
                                        Admiral of the Marches.

Was Kevin Alderon no more than Arbellatra's faithful hatchetman or was he
the guiding hand behind her? Whoever eventually writes the Civil War
sourcebook will have to decide ;-D.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
------------
In my opinion it ought to go without saying that if you work in another
person's universe, he and anyone else authorized to work in said universe
is implicitly permitted to use your work as background material. But I
know it doesn't, so I hereby give my permission for Marc Miller and anyone
else authorized to work in the Traveller Universe to use the above as
background material.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 17:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sat Aug 10 16:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day
In-Reply-To: <200208102032.MMN00082@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020810183827.00a6c100@minn.net>

At 04:32 PM 8/10/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:

>Groth has another long night as SDNCO.  Routine, and 
>routinely boring.  After all, Imperial peacekeeping duty on 
>Garda-Vilis has been going on for over 20 years....
>
>Still, he's trying to keep sharp, and learn new skills.  He's 
>hoping to improve his language skill in Vargr.
>
>The corporal sitting next to him is engrossed in the latest 
>military tri-D.  Groth goes into the battalion office - 
>hopefully he can keep this private.
>
>Unbeknownst to Groth, the S3 is keeping a late night, and 
>comes around to the office area.  Groth, engrossed in his 
>woofing, doesn't notice the major looking at him.
>
>The major clears his throat.  He knows Groth is working hard, 
>but he's never gotten used to the idea of men growling and 
>barking like dogs. 
>
>"Carry on, sergeant."

I have to use this somehow.

Darn it.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     My new first rule of advanced weapon testing: Make a backup 
copy of yourself before opening fire.
     --Kevyn, Schlock Mercenary, August 10, 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 18:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat Aug 10 17:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208110115150.11066-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <20020808171316.15286.91204.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D56548D.12818.5A7CDF@localhost>

On 11 Aug 2002 at 1:34, Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> Alan Bradley writes:
> >Gratuitous nepotism goes a long way. I don't see any particular problem
> >about [Arbellatra] taking over the family business, especially during the
> >Civil War, when warlordism was rife.
> 
> My take is that she is herself at least a duchess (or at least the heir
> apparent to one). And I think you're right that the pre-Civil War navy was
> more subject to favoritism than the USN -- sorry, I mean the Classic Era
> IN ;-).

IMO the IN of CT is actually quite open to various forms of cronyism, 
nepotism, etc. It and the Marines are the two services where a good Soc 
improves your chances and, unlike the Marines, in the Navy your Soc can 
improve during service (all according to Book 1).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 18:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 10 17:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] smallcraft deckplans
Message-ID: <115.158c1370.2a87061b@aol.com>

at http://members.aol.com/exog/myhomepage/small.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 18:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Aug 10 17:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] smallcraft deckplans
In-Reply-To: <115.158c1370.2a87061b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020810201842.019119f8@192.168.0.1>

At 08:13 PM 8/10/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>at http://members.aol.com/exog/myhomepage/small.html

Nice, thanks!



----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Government does not cause affluence. Citizens of totalitarian
countries have plenty of government and nothing of anything
else." -- P. J. O'Rourke, EAT THE RICH
----------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 18:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sat Aug 10 17:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <3D55B1E8.DD9CA93@mail.cswnet.com>

Larsen writes:
>downsize THIS Selig!
A couple more games like todays and he just might take you up on the
offer.
Twinkies    0
Red Sox     2  Final
Since were on the subject, lets here it for the BIG UNIT!
Randy Johnson now 5th place in all-time strike outs!

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 20:32:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Aug 10 19:32:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Land grab webring
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020810223128.0203be30@mail.charter.net>

Any interest in a webring of landgrab sites?



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 00:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 10 23:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Land grab webring
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020810223128.0203be30@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810233001.009e15b0@mindspring.com>

At 10:31 PM 8/10/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Any interest in a webring of landgrab sites?

Yes!  It would encourage me to get a few planets put together and on the web.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 01:04:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Aug 11 00:04:05 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <6b60e36b77b9.6b77b96b60e3@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810233138.009e28a0@mindspring.com>

At 11:12 PM 8/10/02 +0300, you wrote:

>Who cares [*].  Barry Bonds will _still_ never be fit to wash Big Mac's
>skivvies.... ;-)

Big Mac? Sounds familiar..  Ah, yes.  The guy who has *2nd* place on the 
single-season home run record, and on all time..  576?  24 short, Bash-boy!

>ObTrav: Change the game from baseball to gravball, change the names from
>Mark McGwire and Barry Bonds to something a bit more Travelleresque (or
>not), and you can use the "who's greater?" discussion practically
>verbatim.

I once needed a bar brawl to break out, and put two guys discussing 
Rollerball in the corner.  Suddenly, I had one of the NPCs leap up and yell 
"The stinking '85 Dreadnaughts?  Stanton could've taken them sissies down 
single-handed!"  Rebuttal made by way of beer mug.

>[*] Says someone who definitively bleeds Cardinals Red [**].... ;-)

Could be worse, you could bleed Dodger (spit) Blue.

>[**] Although I do indeed bleed Cardinals Red when sliced and/or diced,
>I prefer to keep my blood going round and round, rather than spurting
>out in great gouts....

Yet he insults a Giant in my presence.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry   gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Cry "CHEEBLE!" and let slip the hamsters of war!



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 01:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Sun Aug 11 00:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Land grab webring
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810233001.009e15b0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPIEIFEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Looks good to me, especially as the Rockhead ring seems to be dead.

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
Sent: Sunday, 11 August 2002 2:31 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Land grab webring


At 10:31 PM 8/10/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Any interest in a webring of landgrab sites?

Yes!  It would encourage me to get a few planets put together and on the
web.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 01:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Sun Aug 11 00:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <200208101154.MLV00593@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <006a01c241a6$9af3ca00$1001a8c0@sauron>

John T. Kwon wrote :
> The problem is that the photon changed course billions of 
> years ago, before the Earth existed, before people existed, 
> before the detector existed.  But the act of observing forces 
> a change - a change that takes place before the observation.
> It's as though an observation in the present writes the past, 
> which is what Wheeler talks about.  Results preceding the 
> initiating action.  Wheeler says in one of his books that the 
> act of observing writes and decides the past - it's not 
> really observing, since by changing the methods of 
> observation, we can get a different result.

Wheeler is presuming that the physicists who make the 
observation have any choice in how or whether the 
observation is made.

The concept of "probablity" as described by Wheeler and 
quantum physics, is merely the latitude in the _model_, 
and in our current predictive tools. There is no latitude 
in the real world, merely in the tools we use to describe 
it.

Stating that "the probablility function collapses" or that 
the observation "causes" one probablility to become "real",
is just confusing the map with the territory. 
 
To look at it another way, the "problems" with causality 
are only problems because people are looking at the situation 
arse about face. From the point of view of the observer a 
billion years ago, eveything is completely predictable. 

_Because_ of the photon doing one thing now (in the past), 
it _will_ be observed at a particular time and place and manner 
in the future. 

A violation of causality will only occur if the physicists 
do _not_ make the observation. But they cannot fail to make 
the observation because they are part of the universe, and 
their actions have already been predestined by the particle 
action in the past.

Wheeler's argument is similar to asking you to accept the 
hypothesis that because you are now reading this mail, you 
are somehow influencing me to write it in the past, and that 
if you didn't read it, I would not have written it, rather 
than accepting the simpler hypothesis that you are reading 
it now because I wrote it previously.

<big grin>

Frankie


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 06:27:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Sun Aug 11 05:27:25 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was  COTI website)
References: <20020804060231.5D9A02793A@mail.travellercentral.com> <3.0.5.16.20020804110019.353f3a82@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3D5643B6.2010801@gmx.net>

Douglas E. Berry wrote:

>At 04:21 PM 8/4/2002 +0800, you wrote:
>  
>
>>Was that spam and eggs
>>or spam, spam egs and spam?
>>    
>>
>
>Spam spam spam spam spam spam spam lovely spam, wonderful spam...
>  
>
bloody space vikings...

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 06:34:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug 11 05:34:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
Message-ID: <200208111232.MNT00071@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Frankie says
>Wheeler's argument is similar to asking you to accept the 
>hypothesis that because you are now reading this mail, you 
>are somehow influencing me to write it in the past, and that 
>if you didn't read it, I would not have written it, rather 
>than accepting the simpler hypothesis that you are reading 
>it now because I wrote it previously.

There was a brilliant explanation in the book Timeline, where 
one character tells the other not to resort to explanation by 
statistics or math.  

So, we'll skip the probability functions, etc, and the 
causality questions, and say:

In this particular universe, I'm reading your email.

Wow.  A new acronym to go with RL, IMTU, etc.  ITPU.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 07:14:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sun Aug 11 06:14:07 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was  COTI website)
In-Reply-To: <3D5643B6.2010801@gmx.net>
References: <20020804060231.5D9A02793A@mail.travellercentral.com>
 <3.0.5.16.20020804110019.353f3a82@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020811081452.00a9c100@minn.net>

At 09:00 PM 8/11/2002 +1000, Robert Houghton wrote:
>Douglas E. Berry wrote:

>>>Was that spam and eggs
>>>or spam, spam egs and spam?
>>>    
>>>
>>
>>Spam spam spam spam spam spam spam lovely spam, wonderful spam...
>>  
>>
>bloody space vikings...

Ya sure, you betcha.

Okay fellow travellers, who would you cast in a film version of Space Viking?

I'll start with:

Ian Richardson as King (Goodman) Mikhyl VIII of Marduk.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     My new first rule of advanced weapon testing: Make a backup 
copy of yourself before opening fire.
     --Kevyn, Schlock Mercenary, August 10, 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 09:00:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Sun Aug 11 08:00:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810233138.009e28a0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020811145935.10145.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com>

Are there any gun enthusiasts on the list who would
care to answer this question for me? What's the
purpose of a folding stock besides to make a rifle
easier to conceal? I can see the purpose on a rifle
,but I've seen pistols that had folding stocks, like
some old Mausers.(incredible pistols)What advantage
would this be to a pistol that's already very
concealable? My guess is that it helps stabilize the
gun if it's a semiauto. Anyone care to verify this for
me? Also, how would this translate into Traveller
rules?
thanks.

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 09:13:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Sun Aug 11 08:13:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Strike Cruisers
In-Reply-To: <OF846C706A.217A0A07-ONCA256C02.002526C5@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20020811151201.45130.qmail@web11803.mail.yahoo.com>

I'd say a meson gun allows the strike cruiser to be
> useful both in 
> attacking other ships - especially merchant
> shipping, to cut the logistics 
> tail - AND in the planetary bombardment role.
> 
Speaking of planetary bombardment, does anyone besides
myself expect the pc's to posistion a forward observer
before attacking something dirtside from orbit? Also,
would a forward observer even be necessary for a
spinal mount weapon?

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 09:25:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 08:25:10 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was  COTI website)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020811081452.00a9c100@minn.net>
References: <3D5643B6.2010801@gmx.net>
 <20020804060231.5D9A02793A@mail.travellercentral.com>
 <3.0.5.16.20020804110019.353f3a82@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811111828.01a24b28@192.168.0.1>

At 08:14 AM 8/11/2002 -0500, Leslie Bates wrote:
[snip]
>Okay fellow travellers, who would you cast in a film version of Space Viking?
>I'll start with:
>Ian Richardson as King (Goodman) Mikhyl VIII of Marduk.

Ok, to start, Ben Affleck is not suited to play Lucas Trask....regardless 
of how well DareDevil may do.

Hmmm....I just reread the book based on some comments by Herr Whipsnade.
Let me chew on this one today...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 09:31:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 08:31:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <20020811145935.10145.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810233138.009e28a0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811112434.02696110@192.168.0.1>

At 07:59 AM 8/11/2002 -0700, Daniel Tackett wrote:
>Are there any gun enthusiasts on the list who would
>care to answer this question for me? What's the
>purpose of a folding stock besides to make a rifle
>easier to conceal?

A fringe benefit. The first first time I remember seeing folding stocks was 
in WWII.
Made it less bulk for paratroopers when they where jumping (with a very 
large load of equipment).
Once they where on the ground, the stock was to be extended and used.

>I can see the purpose on a rifle
>,but I've seen pistols that had folding stocks, like
>some old Mausers.(incredible pistols)What advantage
>would this be to a pistol that's already very
>concealable?

Just what is the concealability rating of a broomhandle Mauser? :-)
The stock was to improve accuracy when firing.  It was made it easier to 
control at rapid fire.
Think, pistol/carbine hybrid

>My guess is that it helps stabilize the
>gun if it's a semiauto. Anyone care to verify this for
>me? Also, how would this translate into Traveller
>rules?

FF&S increased the range (and thus accuracy) when a stock was added.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The purpose of the First Amendment's free-speech guarantee was pretty 
clearly to protect political discourse.
But liberals reject the notion that free speech is therefore limited to 
political topics, even broadly defined.
True, that purpose is not inscribed in the amendment itself. But why leap 
to the conclusion that a broadly
worded constitutional freedom ("the right of the people to keep and bear 
arms") is narrowly limited by its
stated purpose, unless you're trying to explain it away? My New Republic 
colleague Mickey Kaus says that if
liberals interpreted the Second Amendment the way they interpret the rest 
of the Bill of Rights, there would be
law professors arguing that gun ownership is mandatory." -- Michael Kinsley 
Washington Post, January 8, 1990
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 09:35:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 08:35:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Land grab webring
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810233001.009e15b0@mindspring.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020810223128.0203be30@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811112842.01a82eb0@192.168.0.1>

At 11:30 PM 8/10/2002 -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
>At 10:31 PM 8/10/02 -0400, you wrote:
>>Any interest in a webring of landgrab sites?
>
>Yes!  It would encourage me to get a few planets put together and on the web.

Ok, that's two yes votes (besides me).  I'm willing to set it up and 
administer it.
It might be nice to have the home page as the downport landgrab page.

I would host it at ringsurf.com, which is run by our friends at Quiklinks, 
who also make GRIP Traveller and T20.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 10:38:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug 11 09:38:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
Message-ID: <200208111636.MOB00195@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Daniel Tackett says
>What's the purpose of a folding stock besides to make a rifle
>easier to conceal? 
It is not primarily to make a rifle easier to conceal.  It is 
to make the rifle easier to take aboard a confined space, 
such as inside a vehicle (inside a helicopter, grav vehicle, 
etc).

If you get the chance, look at some assault rifles with 
folding stocks.  Unless you're riding in a confined space, 
you'll always have the stock unfolded.  It dramatically 
reduces the effective range of the rifle to use it with the 
stock folded.

>,but I've seen pistols that had folding stocks, like
>some old Mausers.(incredible pistols)

A Mauser is not exactly a concealable pistol, with or without 
the additional stock

>What advantage would this be to a pistol that's already very
>concealable? 

I personally don't believe it adds much to a semi auto 
pistol, since pistol cartridges are of a limited range 
already.  You'll see it on some full auto pistol-sized 
weapons, and there it helps a bit, but those weapons are 
already of a questionable accuracy - they are intended for 
very close use (Skorpion, VP70, etc., are very short range 
weapons).  The sight radius on a pistol weapon with stock is 
still really short even when compared to a carbine or assault 
rifle.

I believe that folding stocks are already covered in the 
LBBs, as well as other rule systems such as GURPS.

IMHO, the effect of folding stocks on the time required to 
aim at a target, as well as the maximum aim benefit per unit 
time is best modeled in Phoenix Command Combat System.  None 
of the other systems adequately model this.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 10:40:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug 11 09:40:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day
Message-ID: <4b3d946bd5.46bd54b3d9@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
Date: Saturday, August 10, 2002 11:32 pm
Subject: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day

> Groth has another long night as SDNCO.  Routine, and 
> routinely boring.  After all, Imperial peacekeeping duty on 
> Garda-Vilis has been going on for over 20 years....
> 
> Still, he's trying to keep sharp, and learn new skills.  He's 
> hoping to improve his language skill in Vargr.
> 
> The corporal sitting next to him is engrossed in the latest 
> military tri-D.  Groth goes into the battalion office - 
> hopefully he can keep this private.
> 
> Unbeknownst to Groth, the S3 is keeping a late night, and 
> comes around to the office area.  Groth, engrossed in his 
> woofing, doesn't notice the major looking at him.
> 
> The major clears his throat.  He knows Groth is working hard, 
> but he's never gotten used to the idea of men growling and 
> barking like dogs.

Clearly this officer has spent precious little time around 
infantrymen.... ;-)
  
> "Carry on, sergeant."

I must thank you for an exceptionally amusing mental picture.

Meanwhile, this one _really_ happened over here during my first Sinai 
tour in 1986:

I had purchased a bottle of bubble liquid at the Force Exchange.  One 
fine night, at about 2200 hours, I was standing outside my barracks, 
allowing the wind to blow bubbles (we had a good 20-knot breeze off the 
Gulf of Aqaba that night [and most nights, for that matter]).  The 
battalion command sergeant major, CSM Rath (which is an _excellent_ name 
for a sergeant major) drives by in his jeep.  He stops, looks at me for 
a moment, shakes his head and drives away, no doubt thinking that the 
S-5 section had been in theater a bit too long....




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 10:52:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Coy Krill)
Date: Sun Aug 11 09:52:09 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Dougs MOS and Language (was Audible Signature...)
Message-ID: <200208110950.37885.coy.krill@verizon.net>

Douglas Berry wrote:

>Of course, given my MOS and assigned (_not_ chosen!) target language, 
>that could be a couple of decades from now.... :-(

What's your MOS and target language?

Coy
Former 96C/97E targetting Persian Farsi 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 10:54:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug 11 09:54:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day
Message-ID: <514a852165.52165514a8@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net>
Date: Sunday, August 11, 2002 2:38 am
Subject: Re: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day

> At 04:32 PM 8/10/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> >
> >The major clears his throat.  He knows Groth is working hard, 
> >but he's never gotten used to the idea of men growling and 
> >barking like dogs. 
> >
> >"Carry on, sergeant."
> 
> I have to use this somehow.
> 
> Darn it.

As an aside, this would probably be a great-nephew of (and named for) 
SEH recipient SSG John E. Groth (see GT:GF for details).

SSG Groth (the SEH recipient) didn't live long enough to have children, 
hence no grandchildren.  The SFC Groth who's writing this right now has 
no children either, but that's not due to experiencing first-hand the 
difference between "bullet-proof" and "bullet-resistant"....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 11:56:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sun Aug 11 10:56:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Settlement date of Vilis
In-Reply-To: <20020811071903.23547.84149.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208111946470.3227-100000@ask.diku.dk>

John T. Kwon writes:
>Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen says
>>Vilis will need to be an unusually well-
>>organized and unusually successful colony venture in order
>>to grow to a point where it can impose its will on a
>>long-established world in just 50 years.
>
>
>That's the problem I had with the positive 240 date.  It
>would have to be a societal miracle on the scale of the Meiji
>Period in real life.  Japan going from 16th to 20th century
>in 40 years - and being able to project credible military
>power at the end of that period.

But it's not inconcievable that it could happen. Therefore it happened. It
only remains to figure out just how it happened.

I'm all in favor of correcting inconsistent canonical data, but only if it
is the only way to account for it. IMO this is not the case here. Unlikely,
yes, impossible, no.



Hans



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 12:10:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 11:10:07 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEMCCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>
>     Please see a mental health professional as soon as possible.  While
>Whipsnade's Syndrome is terminal, the final stages may be delayed long
>enough to allow the sufferers a nearly normal life.  The usual prescription
>involves a daily dose of alcohol.

No problem.  Why just last night I attended the Queen's Ball, a party to
celebrate the birthday of the Queen of Thailand.  My friend George, with
whom I had spent the day sailing a 22 foot sloop in San Francisco Bay
(however you remember the weather on the bay in August, you are probably
right, as we had a some of everything, plus our outboard malfunctioned while
we were becalmed), also attended.  We consumed enough alcohol -- primarily
gin and tonics -- to make up for the previous week's abstinence.  (Yes, I
believe my fiancee and her 16.75-year-old daughter were also there -- come
to think of it, I think George was making lewd comments about the daughter
during her dance performance -- but I don't recall too well.)  Umm ... what
was the rest of this discussion about?

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 12:12:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Sun Aug 11 11:12:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <200208111636.MOB00195@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020811181003.52567.qmail@web11804.mail.yahoo.com>

A Mauser is not exactly a concealable pistol, with
> or without 
> the additional stock

Hmm, just my assumtion on the matter. I figured that's
was why people saw off the stocks of shotguns; after
also sawing off the barrel ,of course. It does make it
somewhat concealable, but I of course, I think your
point was that if you want concealment, why a Mauser?
Mausers just came to mind because they're my favorite
gun. I'm no enthusiast, but I've always thought they
were cool. 

> IMHO, the effect of folding stocks on the time
> required to 
> aim at a target, as well as the maximum aim benefit
> per unit 
> time is best modeled in Phoenix Command Combat
> System.  None 
> of the other systems adequately model this.
THanks for the information. I, of course, looked at
the CT rules on stocks, but they gave no specific
benefits,except that it made the gun shorter,and
lighter, and a little more accurate at long ranges.
Unfortunately, I never got FF&S after GDW went under.
Hard to find.  I've never really looked for it online
though.
    I'm not familiar with the Phoenix Command Combat
system. I've heard of it,but that's it. I've seen a
link to it somewhere.

THanks for the information gentlemen.
Dan.
 > ________________
> Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
> Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
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HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 12:18:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug 11 11:18:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Settlement date of Vilis
Message-ID: <200208111816.MOD01276@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen says
>But it's not inconcievable that it could happen. Therefore 
>it happened. It only remains to figure out just how it 
>happened.
>

Well, the other thing I'm looking at is the radical 
population size currently noted. It's in the billions.  I'm 
thinking that whatever drove them to leave Gungnir is the 
same thing that drove them to achieve local power very 
quickly, and in a short period of time, grow from what had to 
be less than a million colonists (being generous) to billions.

They're living in a representative democracy. I'm thinking 
that they are not as obsessed with military spending on Vilis 
as they were in the Sword Worlds.  That might also explain 
why they did their Garda-Vilis intervention in the Broadsword 
adventure on such a small shoestring budget.

Over a long time period, with no major battles to fight, 
Vilis might not feel pressure to have high tech advances (on 
Earth at least, most tech innovation is the result of 
military research).  But they might be farmers, factory 
workers, and consumers along the same lines as the Japanese.

Gee, I keep getting that parallel, whether it's the Meiji 
period or current Japan.

It almost makes Frenzie look like Okinawa.  Perhaps the 
reasone that the original people left for Vilis is that they 
were pacifists - they didn't want a military culture.

A mild resurgence of military thought merges with "do good" 
government to intervene in Garda-Vilis.  But there's no real 
budget or large military to do it.

________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 12:29:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sun Aug 11 11:29:10 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt> <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <02081114275201.00604@linux>

>   >If planets are so self sufficient, then why does TNE describe planets
>   >failing because they were cut off from interstellar trade?

	Planets in the Imperium are not self sufficient unless they want to be seen 
as hopelessly isolationist and thus not entirely open to trade or political 
ties with the Imperium.


> Longer-term dependence on a scale of centuries may be a possibility,
> but I personally think it far more likely that if trade was cut, it
> would not take that long to develop local resources to cover or avoid
> the very small shortfall.

	 My position is that rockballs have NO local resources except rocks to 
develope. All other resources had to be imported at some point in time and 
that if they are no longer imported, then they must be renewable. Therefore , 
in my opinion, rockballs are not really viable for hi-pop hi-tech worlds.
I believe that the uwp procedure is broken and can give unreasonable results.

> > Thats all I'm saying... given sufficient stress to the system
> > (irrespective of which particular Traveller setting you use), you
> > can Fail any planet that isn't capable of supporting life without
> > TL9+ intervention.

	 Can humans  guarantee a self sufficient base on mars anytime soon?
On the moon?.  What is the lowest tech level where this could be possible?

> That's rather a guarded and qualified statement.  I'd go further and
> say that given sufficient stress to the system, you can Fail any
> planet at all!

	Yes. given sufficient stress.

> But it won't be due to lack of trade, which was the contention of the
> original post.

	No. It will be because of the upset in the world's economy as they adjust to 
lack of trade. <massive layoffs, crashing markets, etc. >
I find that the biggest concern is wealth distribution. Can the 'haves' 
readjust the economy fast enough that the 'have-nots' won't be driven to 
serious social unrest in order to eat. I am thinking of the French Revolution 
or the Russian Revolution in scope. Maybe those worlds that wouldn't be too 
unduly stressed are all hippie communes where everyone has equal access to 
all goods.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 12:32:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sun Aug 11 11:32:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <3D540E41.1040509@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <20020809190742.B3949@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D540E41.1040509@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <02081011564600.00603@linux>

>
> Each set of rules is indeed a different universe.
>
> Hard Times describes the MT Late Rebellion universe. GT:FT describes the
> steady state 'Strephon walks out of the shower' universe. WBH describes
> an early rebellion/CT universe.
>
> The fact that they all share remarkable similarities in background story
> is mere coincidence ;-)

	They are all in the same universe but just in different time periods.
Therefore... as laws  of physics and economics should be consistant, then the 
rules must all give similar outcomes. In my little 'test', I did not mix the 
rules, just showed what each set would give as possible outcomes. As each 
ruleset seems to concentrate on different aspects, no one set gives a full 
answer. I found that each in turn did give its own insight to the situation. 
One can then pick and choose from the outcomes.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 12:37:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sun Aug 11 11:37:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <02081114040900.00604@linux>


>
> A massive drop in tech level seems *exceedingly* unlikely though.  In
> trade volume terms, it would be like the Phillipines "abandoning" the
> economy of the rest of the world, causing the rest of the world to
> experience a massive economic slump, rioting, civil unrest, and
> reversion to pre-WWI technology.  No offense to inhabitants of the
> Phillipines, but I don't think they prop up the rest of the world.

	That sounds like the tail wagging the dog. Perhaps such effects would occur 
if the entire world abandoned, say, Japan to some degree. The loss of trade 
would affect the world more than it would affect the Imperium.

> Likewise, I don't think the minute volume of trade props up the
> high-pop worlds in Traveller.
>
	I believe that it props up the econmies of the worlds to a greater degree 
than you suggest. According to GDW, any world that was completely 
self-supporting was seen as being dangerously isolationist. The Imperium 
would no doubt put political pressure on the world to be better integrated 
into the imperial economy and the megacorps would put trade pressure on such 
a world in order to promote better manufacturing efficiences in the much 
larger Imperial market. Trade is an enormous carrot or damaging stick when 
dealing with another political entity.

> That's broken.  An average hectare per person assigned to food
> production is ample even with current technology and without trying
> hard.  Tech level 15 should be able to do *much* better.

	If it is broken then I feel all reasonable efforts should be made to fix it.

> > without even considering area for housing or industry or materials
> > production. IT would take a tech 15 arcology 25000 km^2 just to
> > house everyone.

	I forgot the equation for surface area of a sphere so I guesstimated it to 
be about 60% of the area of a cube of equal size, probably wrong. My point 
was to show lack of space for the population, agriculture, manufacturing, 
resources, energy production, etc.  I followed the rules without comparing 
them as yet to the RW.

> That's not a problem, even if you do decide to abandon the surface.
> Traveller fusion power is *really* cheap.  A megawatt would cost no
> more than Cr10/week.  It would certainly take much less power than a
> megawatt per person to grow food.

	My calculations were for a tech15 world as a best case. At lower tech levels 
in could become a problem. 
	I still want to know why anyone would advocate the population of the earth 
being shoehorned on a rock half the size of the moon. The old excuses wear 
thin after a few times.
	Why was trade halted anyway? The only two reasons I know would be in the 
case of war. Or if it was simply no longer profittable for a corp to keep 
sending ships there. Who and why would anyone fund such a thing on this scale?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 12:40:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug 11 11:40:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
Message-ID: <200208111835.MOF00148@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Daniel Tackett says
>    I'm not familiar with the Phoenix Command Combat
>system. I've heard of it,but that's it.

It has an interesting concept called Aim Time.  When you're 
expending actions during a combat round, you can decide how 
many actions you're going to spend aiming.  You can spend 
zero time aiming (not a good idea), or as long as 12 actions 
(for some characters, two or three combat rounds or longer) 
aiming at a target.

A typical pistol (the M1911A1) has an aim time listed as 
follows:

Action   DM
1        -18
2        -11
3        -10
4        -9
5        -8
6        -7

The DM is not against a die roll - it slides you up and down 
a chart.  So don't get excited by the big numbers.

It doesn't do any good to aim an iron sighted .45 longer than 
6 actions, and a person with high skill and speed will reach 
this point in less than a 2 second combat round.  Someone who 
is seeing the weapon for the first time may take more than 
three combat rounds to get to this point.  And you may have a 
high skill, but be fat, old, and slow.

Then the skill DM is applied.  Obviously, if your skill is 
high enough, you can fire on every other action count or so, 
and still hit people close to you, while someone with little 
or no skill is just going to make a lot of noise, or fire 
infrequently.  And if your skill AND speed are high, you'll 
not only fire rapidly, you'll be able to selectively do 
things like the Mozambique drill.

By comparison, an M1 Carbine has the following Aim Time mods.

Action   DM
1        -23
2        -12
3        -9
4        -7
5        -6
6        -4
7        -3
8        -2
9        -2
10       -1
11       0

You'll notice that even if you don't have much skill, if you 
aim long enough, you can get a decent shot with a stocked 
weapon.  Weapons with certain types of scopes will eventually 
achieve a positive DM, while those with red dot sights may 
achieve a positive DM in less time.

If someone has high skill, and a semi-auto sniper rifle, and 
has the targets within a small cone closer than 200 yards 
away, a lot of people are going to get hit in rapid 
succession in specific body parts.

There is also an accomodation for maximum ballistic accuracy 
for every weapon - no matter how good you are, the weapon 
can't be any more accurate than a specific value at a 
specific distance.  

________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 12:43:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sun Aug 11 11:43:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <20810.075757.1b1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20810.075757.1b1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <02081114403102.00604@linux>

> >>If we can't follow our own laws except when it is convenient, we are
> >>all at the mercy of anybody in a position of authorty.
> >
> > Welcome to the "rule of men, not laws".

 "Laws are written in sand, but customs are written in stone"

Mark Twain....supergenius


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 12:45:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug 11 11:45:55 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
Message-ID: <200208111839.MOF00316@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

richard honeycutt says
<snip stuff about trade>

In whatever ways the trade rules may be broken, or not make 
any sense, I still go back to Traders and Gunboats, and the 
comment that the primary reason for interstellar travel is 
trade.

They say clearly that there is a lot of trade.  A lot of 
trade makes sense. 

If space travel was as easy in RL as it is in Traveller, we 
would have colonized a lot of places by now.  And we would 
have trade with the colonies.  A lot of trade.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 12:51:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Aug 11 11:51:05 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Dougs MOS and Language (was Audible Signature...)
In-Reply-To: <200208110950.37885.coy.krill@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020811114253.009e6900@mindspring.com>

At 09:50 AM 8/11/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry wrote:
>
> >Of course, given my MOS and assigned (_not_ chosen!) target language,
> >that could be a couple of decades from now.... :-(
>
>What's your MOS and target language?

My MOS was 11-B.  John Groth  talks to 'em, I just put bullets in their bodies.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 13:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Aug 11 12:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810093741.009f6d90@mindspring.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810093741.009f6d90@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m365yhfc15.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
> 
> I gave him official author dispensation to not have Marines in
> kilts.  Put 'em in clown suits for all I care.

THe 31st REgina Cream-piedeers?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
God saved a few pieces of Eden when he gave us the boot, and one of
the best is the fact that any fruit containing sugar will turn to
booze if you leave it to ferment.
   --http://www.soyouwanna.com/site/syws/basicwine/basicwine.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 13:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sun Aug 11 12:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811111828.01a24b28@192.168.0.1>
References: <3D5643B6.2010801@gmx.net> <20020804060231.5D9A02793A@mail.travellercentral.com> <3.0.5.16.20020804110019.353f3a82@pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20020811081452.00a9c100@minn.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020811111828.01a24b28@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <cvadlu853frpfp0389497526i1dsmdu01f@4ax.com>

On Sun, 11 Aug 2002 11:22:18 -0400, Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net>
wrote:

>At 08:14 AM 8/11/2002 -0500, Leslie Bates wrote:
>[snip]
>>Okay fellow travellers, who would you cast in a film version of Space =
Viking?
>>I'll start with:
>>Ian Richardson as King (Goodman) Mikhyl VIII of Marduk.
>
>Ok, to start, Ben Affleck is not suited to play Lucas =
Trask....regardless=20
>of how well DareDevil may do.
>
><SNIP>

I don't know about that; he's tall, handsome (though I'll have to
trust members of the other gender for a final ruling there), of
aproximately the correct age, and would seem capable of conveying the
sort of grim rage and determination that would be necessary to pursue
his foe for years and at the expense of losing his fief.

Other contemporaries to rule out:  Freddie Prinz, Jr.; Matthew
Lillard; Casper Van Dien (probably killed all future SF efforts by
appearing in Starship Troopers); Vin Diesel (of the current XXX).

Matt Damon, Afleck's childhood friend and frequent co-star, might be
another who could pull off the role.  Other possibilities escape me at
the moment.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 13:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sun Aug 11 12:33:03 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <02081114275201.00604@linux>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt> <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net> <02081114275201.00604@linux>
Message-ID: <2gedluka0l386dc7fqq7dug98nmh03gm7p@4ax.com>

On Sun, 11 Aug 2002 14:27:52 -0400, richard honeycutt
<richard@usisp.com> wrote:

><SNIP>
>
>> But it won't be due to lack of trade, which was the contention of the
>> original post.
>
>	No. It will be because of the upset in the world's economy as they =
adjust to=20
>lack of trade. <massive layoffs, crashing markets, etc. >
>I find that the biggest concern is wealth distribution. Can the 'haves'=20
>readjust the economy fast enough that the 'have-nots' won't be driven to=
=20
>serious social unrest in order to eat. I am thinking of the French =
Revolution=20
>or the Russian Revolution in scope. Maybe those worlds that wouldn't be =
too=20
>unduly stressed are all hippie communes where everyone has equal access =
to=20
>all goods.

I've generally been staying out of this argument, but I have to repeat
the point being made by other.  You are contending that this economy
is so fragile that a 3% drop in the world's economy (which is what
interstellar trade represents), would be sufficient to collapse social
fabric and bring about a general revolution?

I tend to agree with those who feel that the drop in trade alone is
insufficient to explain this fall.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 13:35:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug 11 12:35:12 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Dougs MOS and Language (was Audible Signature...)
Message-ID: <a28d9168.9168a28d@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Date: Sunday, August 11, 2002 9:43 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] OT: Dougs MOS and Language (was Audible Signature...)

> At 09:50 AM 8/11/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >Douglas Berry wrote:
> >
> > >Of course, given my MOS and assigned (_not_ chosen!) target 
> language,> >that could be a couple of decades from now.... :-(
> >
> >What's your MOS and target language?
> 
> My MOS was 11-B.  John Groth  talks to 'em, I just put bullets in 
> their bodies.

Assuming that they hold off on surrendering long enough for you to shoot 
at them.... ;-)

To answer the question, my MOS is 97E4P00AE.  And yes, I too went 
through Fort We-Gotcha when the MOS code was 96C.... ;-)

Now you see why I don't expect to retire when I'm eligible.... :-(


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 13:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug 11 12:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Settlement date of Vilis
Message-ID: <699d3c20.3c20699d@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Date: Sunday, August 11, 2002 8:55 pm
Subject: [TML] Re: Settlement date of Vilis

> John T. Kwon writes:
> >Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen says
> >>Vilis will need to be an unusually well-
> >>organized and unusually successful colony venture in order
> >>to grow to a point where it can impose its will on a
> >>long-established world in just 50 years.
> >
> >
> >That's the problem I had with the positive 240 date.  It
> >would have to be a societal miracle on the scale of the Meiji
> >Period in real life.  Japan going from 16th to 20th century
> >in 40 years - and being able to project credible military
> >power at the end of that period.
> 
> But it's not inconcievable that it could happen. Therefore it 
> happened. It
> only remains to figure out just how it happened.
> 
> I'm all in favor of correcting inconsistent canonical data, but 
> only if it
> is the only way to account for it. IMO this is not the case here. 
> Unlikely,yes, impossible, no.

Well, one possibility is that the Vilis colonists went in "loaded for 
bear" (given a turbulent situation in the Sword Worlds, this seems a 
reasonable approach), with a number of heavily-armed starships as an 
escort squadron.  Fifty years later, the escort squadron is still 
powerful enough to overawe and/or overwhelm a technologically-backward 
Tanoose, thus converting Tanoose to Garda-Vilis.  Once the conquest is 
secure, G-V lacks the spaceborne assets to contest further occupation, 
hence the low-level guerrilla war between Tanoosian nationalists and the 
Vilis occupiers.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 13:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug 11 12:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
Message-ID: <200208111949.MOH00506@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

JR Holmes says
>Other contemporaries to rule out:  Freddie Prinz, Jr.; 
>Matthew Lillard; Casper Van Dien (probably killed all future 
>SF efforts by appearing in Starship Troopers); Vin Diesel 
>(of the current XXX).
>
>Matt Damon, Afleck's childhood friend and frequent co-star, 
>might be another who could pull off the role.  Other 
>possibilities escape me at
>the moment.

Josh Hartnett would be good.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 14:04:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug 11 13:04:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Failed Worlds
Message-ID: <12e.15b8a75b.2a881d23@aol.com>

 >In whatever ways the trade rules may be broken, or not make 
 >any sense, I still go back to Traders and Gunboats, and the 
 >comment that the primary reason for interstellar travel is 
 >trade.
 >
 >They say clearly that there is a lot of trade.  A lot of 
 >trade makes sense.

Depends on what you mean by "a lot".  Consider trade amounting to 0.4% (a 
number cited earlier) of a 10 billion population world's productivity.  Seen 
from the perspective of an individual trader with a 400 ton merchant ship 
then that's an awful lot of goods being flown around, but as a percentage of 
that world's economy it's not world-breaking.

The planet generation system is simply random.  It generates arbitrary 
results and leaves it to the referee to rationalize why things turned out the 
way they did.  This may lead to interesting game plots, but it cannot bear 
the level of scrutiny and examination that is being given it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 14:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 13:25:02 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in
 traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <02081114275201.00604@linux>
References: <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
 <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt>
 <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811161742.01d43ec8@192.168.0.1>

At 02:27 PM 8/11/2002 -0400, richard honeycutt wrote:
>          Can humans  guarantee a self sufficient base on mars anytime soon?
>On the moon?.  What is the lowest tech level where this could be possible?


For the moon, I'd have to say yes, we could if we put our mind to it.
My memory says that there were recent discoveries that makes water 
available on the moon.
<http://physicsweb.org/article/news/2/3/5>
Having a local water supply makes it much easier.
The major effort is convincing a government with the money & tech to do it.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 14:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Aug 11 13:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <20020811145935.10145.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B97C1824.694A5%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/11/02 7:59 AM, Daniel Tackett at haegen2001@yahoo.com wrote:

> Are there any gun enthusiasts on the list who would
> care to answer this question for me? What's the
> purpose of a folding stock besides to make a rifle
> easier to conceal?

Typically, the purpose of a folding stock is not to make a weapon easier to
conceal, but rather to reduce storage space.  This is particularly useful
for people like vehicle crews.

>I can see the purpose on a rifle
> ,but I've seen pistols that had folding stocks, like
> some old Mausers.(incredible pistols)What advantage
> would this be to a pistol that's already very
> concealable? My guess is that it helps stabilize the
> gun if it's a semiauto.

Detachable/folding stocks on pistols are of suspect value.  While it is tru=
e
that it is much easier to accurately aim a shoulder fired weapon, most
handguns benefit very little from the added stability because their range i=
s
effectively limited by their cartridges.

Still, in general a stocked weapon is easier to aim and keep on target than
one held freehand.  An in the case of some weapon, like the artillery and
Naval model P-08 (luger) and the C96 (broom handle) Mauser, there are reall=
y
more like stockless carbines than pistols.  Stocking these weapon can
realistically increase the 'usable' range from less than 50 to about 100
meters.

While this may seem insignificant, one must bear in mind that about 70% of
all infantry combat occurs at a range of less that 100 meters.  For
artillery crews and others who's primary mission is not infantry combat,
this at least gives them a weapon more effective than just a standard
handgun.


> Anyone care to verify this for
> me? Also, how would this translate into Traveller
> rules?
> thanks.
>=20

DMs for folding stocks are given in Book 1 of CT.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 14:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 13:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <200208111949.MOH00506@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811162447.01739e78@192.168.0.1>

At 03:49 PM 8/11/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>JR Holmes says
> >Other contemporaries to rule out:  Freddie Prinz, Jr.;
> >Matthew Lillard; Casper Van Dien (probably killed all future
> >SF efforts by appearing in Starship Troopers); Vin Diesel
> >(of the current XXX).
> >Matt Damon, Afleck's childhood friend and frequent co-star,
> >might be another who could pull off the role.  Other
> >possibilities escape me at
> >the moment.
>Josh Hartnett would be good.

Yes.  Afleck is just a bit too 'pretty' for Trask. Perhaps as Prince Bentrik.

Now...who to play Otto Harkaman?


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 14:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sun Aug 11 13:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811162447.01739e78@192.168.0.1>
References: <200208111949.MOH00506@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020811155443.00aa06c0@minn.net>

At 04:33 PM 8/11/2002 -0400, Mark Urbin wrote:


>Yes.  Afleck is just a bit too 'pretty' for Trask. Perhaps as Prince Bentrik.

Kenneth Branaugh (sp?) as Prince Bentrik.

>Now...who to play Otto Harkaman?

Twenty years ago I would have gone with Clint Eastwood as Harkaman. Need
someone really tall.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 14:56:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sun Aug 11 13:56:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Failed Worlds
References: <12e.15b8a75b.2a881d23@aol.com>
Message-ID: <004001c24179$4a42b850$7400a8c0@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: <Flykiller@aol.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 11, 2002 9:03 PM
Subject: [TML] Re: Failed Worlds


> >In whatever ways the trade rules may be broken, or not make
>  >any sense, I still go back to Traders and Gunboats, and the
>  >comment that the primary reason for interstellar travel is
>  >trade.
>  >
>  >They say clearly that there is a lot of trade.  A lot of
>  >trade makes sense.
>
> Depends on what you mean by "a lot".  Consider trade amounting to 0.4% (a
> number cited earlier) of a 10 billion population world's productivity.
Seen
> from the perspective of an individual trader with a 400 ton merchant ship
> then that's an awful lot of goods being flown around, but as a percentage
of
> that world's economy it's not world-breaking.
>
> The planet generation system is simply random.  It generates arbitrary
> results and leaves it to the referee to rationalize why things turned out
the
> way they did.  This may lead to interesting game plots, but it cannot bear
> the level of scrutiny and examination that is being given it.

The problem is that the trade rules are broken.

No-one seems to be taking into account intra-system trade stopping. If you
rely on resources from asteroid or comet mining, or you are scattered
throught a system in thousands of smaller outposts rather than all clumped
on one rockball,  and spacecraft trade in-system stops as well as out-system
then you are screwed.

Also, monetary value alone doesn't fully represent the reliance a place may
have for a low cost but essential resource not available locally. Say the
atmophere filters on a planet with a badly tainted, but otherwise
breathable, atmoshere require a relatively cheap catalyst that is not
available locally. These filters constantly need replacing, but the cost is
only a few 10's of millions of Cr a year. Suddenly all external trade
stops... as a percentage of your GWP it is a drop in the ocean, but in terms
of the planets viability it is tremendous.

Matt



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 14:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Spencer)
Date: Sun Aug 11 13:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
Message-ID: <B97C1CBE.3DF5%shadowjack@skyhighway.com>

Now, to really capture Starship Troopers in a movie, we should draw from the
time it was written, which was...[pulls out the book, checks the publishing
date]...1959.

I was about to be silly and say, "John Wayne as Raczak! And Elvis Presley as
'little' Johhny Rico!"

But then I stopped to think about it...


John Ford.


The year is 1960. John Ford directing.

And yes, John Wayne as Raczak.

Henry Fonda. (as DuBois?)

James Stewart. (as Captain Frankel?)

All of those guys.

James Dean as Rico. I know, he died in 1955. I don't care.

Ray Harryhausen does the special effects, backed up by the team from
"Forbidden Planet".

Electronic tonalities by Bebe and Louis Barron (also from "Forbidden
Planet"), and marches by the United States Marine Band.

Film it right out there in Monument Valley.

THERE'S a proper book-to-movie adaptation.

Yeah.


Damn. 


I wish I had it on DVD.
-- 
William Spencer         shadowjack@skyhighway.com

"Air conditioning had a fundamental impact on the country, contributing
along with the civil rights movement...If I had to make an estimate, it's
about 50-50 in terms of the importance of the two of them." - Richard
Nathan, Director of the Rockefeller Institute of Government at the State
University of New York


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 15:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bernie McGeehan)
Date: Sun Aug 11 14:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Land grab webring
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811112842.01a82eb0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020811211638.72037.qmail@web13401.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> wrote:
> At 11:30 PM 8/10/2002 -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
> >At 10:31 PM 8/10/02 -0400, you wrote:
> >>Any interest in a webring of landgrab sites?
> >
> >Yes!  It would encourage me to get a few planets
> put together and on the web.
> 
> Ok, that's two yes votes (besides me).  I'm willing
> to set it up and 
> administer it.
> It might be nice to have the home page as the
> downport landgrab page.
> 
> I would host it at ringsurf.com, which is run by our
> friends at Quiklinks, 
> who also make GRIP Traveller and T20.
Feel free to use the Rockhead graphics, etc, if you
like. I've run out of time to do it right.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 15:20:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sun Aug 11 14:20:00 2002
Subject: [TML] Dork Tower # 19, Page 25.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020811155443.00aa06c0@minn.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811162447.01739e78@192.168.0.1>
 <200208111949.MOH00506@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020811161823.00aa3660@minn.net>

Has anyone tried the Solomani Peanut Butter, Bread and Syrup yet?

Or (the Creative Ruling Consciousness help us) IGOR BARS?


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 15:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sun Aug 11 14:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <20020811071903.23547.84149.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208112318180.3568-100000@ask.diku.dk>

I wrote:
>Here is a list of book titles and short summaries thereof that I worked
>out for the books. Bear in mind that while they are supposedly semi-
>biographical, the emphasis is in some cases on the semi. I would not, for
>instance, put much faith in the supposed first meeting between him and
>Arbellatra ;-)

Oops. I left out the last part of the list, without which my post made
considerably less sense. I'm posting the rest here. I usually trim my
quotes as much as possible, but in this case I'll repost the first part of
the list so that it is all in one place.

> "Young Lord Alderon"    Lishun 586      Young Kevin Alderon decides to
>   					join the Navy.
>
> "Ensign Alderon"        Core 588        Kevin Alderon attends Naval
> 					Academy on Capital.
> |
> |Never written                          Sublieutenant Alderon.
> |
>
> "Lieutenant Alderon"    Vland 594       Lieutenant Alderon foils Vargr
> 					spys and meets a young vargr named
> 					Soegz.
>
> "Liutenant Alderon      Corridor 596    Lieutenant  Alderon  battles Vargr
>  and the Raiders"                       raiders along the Corridor border.
>
> "Lt. Cmdr. Alderon"     Deneb 600
>
> "Commander Alderon"     Sp. Mar. 604
>
> "Commander Alderon      Sp. Mar. 605    A   brilliant  young  ensign named
>  and the ensign"                        Arbellatra  serves  under Commander
>                                         Alderon who promotes  her over the
> 					head of older ensigns.
>
> "Commander Alderon      Tr. Rch. 613    Commander Alderon protects a client
>  and the _ihatei_"                      state in the Outrim Void from Aslan
>                                         settlers, eventually finding alter-
>                                         native land for the Aslans.
>
> "Captain Alderon"       Sp. Mar. 615    The outbreak of the Second Frontier
>                                         War  brings Kevin Alderon his long-
>                                         deserved promotion to captain.
>
> "Captain Alderon's      Sp. Mar. 619    Alderon becomes Flag Captain to Ar-
>  Flag"                                  bellatra, the newly-appointed Grand
>                                         Admiral of the Marches.


"Lord Alderon's         Deneb 620       After the defeat of The Outworld
 Choice"                                Arbellatra and her loyal men must
                                        decide whether to attempt to save
                                        the Imperium.

"Lord Alderon and       Core 622        While  Arbellatra  and  Soegz lays
 the Rebel Fleet"                       siege to Capital, Lord Alderon with
                                        a  rag-tag  fleet  must  prevent a
                                        superior  force from coming to the
                                        old emperor's aid.

"Lord Alderon and       Core 622        The final days of the Siege of Capi-
 the Regent"                            tal.

"Lord Alderon and       Antares 624     Lord Alderon  helps  Admiral Soegz
 the Archduke"                          claim his new Archduchy.

"Lord Alderon and       Core 629
 the Empress"

>Was Kevin Alderon no more than Arbellatra's faithful hatchetman or was he
>the guiding hand behind her? Whoever eventually writes the Civil War
>sourcebook will have to decide ;-D.


BTW, someone said that Arbellatra would have to leave the Marches before
the 2FW was over in order to trounce Gustus in 622. I don't think that's
necessary. If the 2FW is over in early 620 and the Civil War in later 622,
A. has some 32-33 months to do the job. From Mora to Vland is 84 parsecs.
That's 28 jump-3s (and only 21 jump-4s, but it's nulikely that A. would
leave behind her jump-3 ships; IMO many of her battleships would only be
jump-3). And a couple of jumps to account for having to jump short. That's
30 jumps. Assume an average of 10 days per jump and A. can get from Mora
to Vland in 10 months. From Vland to Capital is 18 jumps in a straight
line. Call it 21 and it amounts to 7 more months. That leaves 15 to 16
months for A. to negotiate with the Duke of vland, maneuver against
Gustus, and negotiate with the Moot and whoever is in command of Capital's
defenses. Plenty of time.




       Hans Rancke
 University of Copenhagen
      rancke@diku.dk
 ------------
 In my opinion it ought to go without saying that if you work in another
 person's universe, he and anyone else authorized to work in said universe
 is implicitly permitted to use your work as background material. But I
 know it doesn't, so I hereby give my permission for Marc Miller and anyone
 else authorized to work in the Traveller Universe to use the above as
 background material.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 15:58:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 14:58:22 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <02081114275201.00604@linux>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt> <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net> <02081114275201.00604@linux>
Message-ID: <20020812075652.A15923@freeman.little-possums.net>

richard honeycutt wrote:
> 	 My position is that rockballs have NO local resources except rocks to 
> develope.

It's a *system*, not just a planet.  There will almost always be the
usual assortment of asteroids, gas giants, icy moons, comets, and of
course tons of sunlight.  Land a few billion (or trillion) tons of
volatiles when you're building the colony.

What resources *can't* they develop?


You seem to be assuming a rogue world in the depths of interstellar
blackness.


> Therefore , in my opinion, rockballs are not really viable for
> hi-pop hi-tech worlds.

Oh, it's high-tech as well?  OK: add chemical synthesis, genetic
tailoring, automated mining and volatile retrieval operations, fusion
power, and plenty of other capabilities that make it easier still.


> No. It will be because of the upset in the world's economy as they
> adjust to lack of trade. <massive layoffs, crashing markets, etc. >

You're begging the question.  You're *assuming* massive layoffs, etc.
Given that trade accounts for 0.3% of the economy, why such drastic
effects?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 16:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Sun Aug 11 15:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Land grab webring
Message-ID: <200208111700.AA221053246@caddocourt.com>

From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
>Any interest in a webring of landgrab sites?

I would join.

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 16:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Aug 11 15:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
In-Reply-To: <B97C1CBE.3DF5%shadowjack@skyhighway.com>
Message-ID: <20020811220521.39A1327940@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/11/02 at 01:53 PM,  William Spencer <shadowjack@skyhighway.com>
said:

>Now, to really capture Starship Troopers in a movie, we should draw
>from the time it was written, which was...[pulls out the book, checks
>the publishing date]...1959.

>I was about to be silly and say, "John Wayne as Raczak! And Elvis
>Presley as 'little' Johhny Rico!"

>But then I stopped to think about it...

>John Ford.

>The year is 1960. John Ford directing.

>And yes, John Wayne as Raczak.

>Henry Fonda. (as DuBois?)

>James Stewart. (as Captain Frankel?)

>All of those guys.

>James Dean as Rico. I know, he died in 1955. I don't care.

So, go ahead with Presley as Johnny Rico. With proper direction
Presley could have pulled it off, and it might have launched him in a
direction where, in that universe, he'd have never made those awful
movies in the 60's. 

However, 1959/60 was so long ago that you may have fogotten some
people. Tony Curtis was young enough to play the role and hot in the
box office. Anthony Perkins wouldn't quite fit, I don't think, but he
was about to break out with "Pycho", so he would have been a
possibility. However, I think the perfect actor for the role, at that
time, would have been Jeffrey Hunter.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 16:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 15:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <02081114040900.00604@linux>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <02081114040900.00604@linux>
Message-ID: <20020812083508.B15923@freeman.little-possums.net>

richard honeycutt wrote:

[Tim wrote:]
> > No offense to inhabitants of the Phillipines, but I don't think
> > they prop up the rest of the world.

> 	That sounds like the tail wagging the dog.

Yes it does.  That's why I don't believe it would happen in Traveller,
either.  The Phillipines interact about as much with the economy of
the rest of the world as the Imperium interacts with the economy of
most high-pop rockballs.

If you don't think cutting trade with the Phillipines would crash the
economy of the rest of the world, why would you think that removing
the Imperium would crash the economy of a high-pop rockball?



> According to GDW, any world that was completely self-supporting was
> seen as being dangerously isolationist.

If that's in TNE, I'm not interested.


> The Imperium would no doubt put political pressure on the world to
> be better integrated into the imperial economy

If you actually look at the data, you would see that the Imperial
economy consists of a relatively small number of economic powerhouses
(the high-pop systems) with barely-visible threads of trade between
them.  The only "integrated" worlds are the low-pop ones.


> and the megacorps would put trade pressure on such a world

How do you put effective trade pressure on a world that is completely
self-supporting?


> Trade is an enormous carrot or damaging stick when dealing with
> another political entity.

How many times do I have to repeat this?  That is true only in
current-day Earth, where trade for most nations is between 25% and 80%
of their overall economy.

Trade value in Traveller is, literally, *hundreds* of times less.
That's not my opinion, it's in the published rules.

Trade to a high-pop Traveller world is a 3-gram carrot when you're not
really hungry, or a crumbling stick that is more likely to snap off in
your hand than hurt someone else.


> If it is broken then I feel all reasonable efforts should be made to fix it.

Gven my earlier research, 0.4 hectares per person would suffice at our
tech level (TL8).

Probably halve that at TL9 as tailored organisms produce most of the
raw foodstuffs for meat animal production (which takes most of the
space at the moment).  Halving again at TL10 with more efficiency
still.

Drop that by a factor of about 10 at any tech level where land is
substantially more expensive to develop than the benefit you get from
free light energy.


> I forgot the equation for surface area of a sphere so I guesstimated
> it to be about 60% of the area of a cube of equal size, probably
> wrong.

Actually about right.  Did you remember to square the radius?


> My point was to show lack of space for the population, agriculture,
> manufacturing, resources, energy production, etc.

My point was that there is no lack of space.  Planets are *big*.


>  I followed the rules without comparing them as yet to the RW.

How much area do the rules say it takes?


> I still want to know why anyone would advocate the population of the
> earth being shoehorned on a rock half the size of the moon. The old
> excuses wear thin after a few times.

"Shoehorned" is hardly the word.  The average population density would
be less than many *rural* areas on Earth.  Most likely, it started off
smaller and grew.


> Why was trade halted anyway?

I don't care.  I'm interested in the effects, not in the causes.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 16:38:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 15:38:25 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <2gedluka0l386dc7fqq7dug98nmh03gm7p@4ax.com>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt> <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net> <02081114275201.00604@linux> <2gedluka0l386dc7fqq7dug98nmh03gm7p@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020812083720.C15923@freeman.little-possums.net>

JR Holmes wrote:
> You are contending that this economy is so fragile that a 3% drop in
> the world's economy (which is what interstellar trade represents),
> would be sufficient to collapse social fabric and bring about a
> general revolution?

Worse actually, it's typically only 0.3% -- ten times smaller.  Often
less still.

That's why I keep shaking my head in disbelief whenever someone brings
up the drastic effects of loss of trade.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 16:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Aug 11 15:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <20020812083508.B15923@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <02081114040900.00604@linux>
Message-ID: <3D5791CF.9450.889980@localhost>

On 12 Aug 2002 at 8:35, Timothy Little wrote:

> > Trade is an enormous carrot or damaging stick when dealing with
> > another political entity.
> 
> How many times do I have to repeat this?  That is true only in
> current-day Earth, where trade for most nations is between 25% and 80%
> of their overall economy.
> 
> Trade value in Traveller is, literally, *hundreds* of times less.
> That's not my opinion, it's in the published rules.

However it is also in published canon that trade warfare (the Traveller 
Adventure) is practised and effective. Also that commerce warfare is 
practised and is therefore presumeably worthwhile. and that one of the 
megacorps (Tukera Lines) is almost entirely interstellar trade based. 
For it to be a megacorp from this it must be able to generate about the 
same revenue from it as the other megacorps (which effectively own 
entire worlds, remember) do from other forms of activity, much of which 
is probably not trade-based.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 16:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 15:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Failed Worlds
In-Reply-To: <004001c24179$4a42b850$7400a8c0@matt>
References: <12e.15b8a75b.2a881d23@aol.com> <004001c24179$4a42b850$7400a8c0@matt>
Message-ID: <20020812085830.D15923@freeman.little-possums.net>

Matthew Bond wrote:
> These filters constantly need replacing, but the cost is only a few
> 10's of millions of Cr a year. Suddenly all external trade stops...

So you use a different catalyst, and/or develop local means of
production of filters.  Obviously they don't need replacing often
(it's only 0.01 Cr/person/year!), so you can probably continue pretty
much as normal for a few years.

I doubt that it would actually take more than a few weeks to come up
with an alternative.  Even if it costs a *thousand* times as much to
make filters locally as to import, there's still not much impact.
Mild inconvenience, at worst.

Unless you want to posit that this catalyst is for some reason the
only possible thing that will *ever* work, and that it is *impossible*
(not just uneconomical) to develop locally, then I disagree with your
conclusion.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 17:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 16:12:02 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in
 traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <20020812075652.A15923@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <02081114275201.00604@linux>
 <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
 <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt>
 <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <02081114275201.00604@linux>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811190529.0161b050@192.168.0.1>

At 07:56 AM 8/12/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>richard honeycutt wrote:
> >       My position is that rockballs have NO local resources except 
> rocks to
> > develope.
>It's a *system*, not just a planet.  There will almost always be the
>usual assortment of asteroids, gas giants, icy moons, comets, and of
>course tons of sunlight.  Land a few billion (or trillion) tons of
>volatiles when you're building the colony.
>What resources *can't* they develop?

Given a high enough tech level (say B or better), and unrestricted access 
to the rest of the system, using non-starships, they should be pretty much set.

Now if they are TL 6 or 7, and they need access to material (say water for 
example) in the asteroid belt two orbits out...doable, but much more a pain 
the ass unless they have access to higher tech level equipment.

Hmmm....I'll have to start looking, just how many medium to high pop 
rockballs with a TL 9 or under are there?


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 17:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 16:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020811155443.00aa06c0@minn.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811162447.01739e78@192.168.0.1>
 <200208111949.MOH00506@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811192519.0162deb8@192.168.0.1>

At 03:54 PM 8/11/2002 -0500, Leslie Bates wrote:
>At 04:33 PM 8/11/2002 -0400, Mark Urbin wrote:
> >Yes.  Afleck is just a bit too 'pretty' for Trask. Perhaps as Prince 
> Bentrik.
>Kenneth Branaugh (sp?) as Prince Bentrik.

Perhaps...

> >Now...who to play Otto Harkaman?
>Twenty years ago I would have gone with Clint Eastwood as Harkaman. Need
>someone really tall.

Hmmm...Mel Gibson...nah too short and would have been better 5 or 10 years 
ago...
Russell Crow?  I don't think he's tall enough either...
Howie Long?  He's big enough or Dolph Lundgren would do two.  Have to 
darken the hair and add the beard.

Now for Lady Valerie Alvarath .
"She was beautiful-black hair, and almost startling blue eyes, a 
combination unusual in the Sword-Worlds."

Jennifer Connelly gets my vote.  Blue contacts and she's ready to go.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Sucessful Termanation of OPFOR Capabilities, re: Life Sustaining
Operations; Originating from a Departure Line Orientated to the Vertical
of the Main Battle Area."  --  http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 17:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 16:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] arrrrghhh....
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811192519.0162deb8@192.168.0.1>
References: <3.0.6.32.20020811155443.00aa06c0@minn.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020811162447.01739e78@192.168.0.1>
 <200208111949.MOH00506@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811194438.0163fce0@192.168.0.1>

At 07:32 PM 8/11/2002 -0400, Mark Urbin wrote:
>Howie Long?  He's big enough or Dolph Lundgren would do two.  Have to 
>darken the hair and add the beard.

Dolph Lundgren would do too, as in as well.  I'm sure he's done two 
before.  He's a movie star. :-)


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Discord, the Goddess of the Net, was developing a taste for blood sacrifice.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 18:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug 11 17:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] UN PKF Patrol Ship
Message-ID: <3D570097.F564D398@mail.cswnet.com>

Niles Anderson was having a bad day. The asteroid that he had been
surveying turned out to be nothing more than silicate rock. When he
lifted of from the rock, the number two fuel line ruptured and dumped
have of his ships gas out into space. Over the comm he recieved the news
that the bank would forclose on his ships loan if they didnt recieve
payment by next week.

Niles took it all in stride. Pulling out an emergency medical kit, he
shuffled around the contents until he found the vicoden bottle he had
picked up from a hack doctor on Juno. He popped two pills and looked at
the navigational display. A nickle iron asteriod was within range, but
the display showed a thin red line between the ship and the rock, with a
message that flashed:

NAVAL ORE MINING RESERVE #4 PROSPECTING FORBIDEN

Niles looked at the flashing light and contemplated his situation. That
asteroid probably had enough of a deposit on it to pay off the bank, and
what the military doesn't know won't hurt them, he thought.
Hitting the throttle, he accelerated his ship passed the perimeter on a
direct course to asteroid. 

Just as the ship reached the asteroid, another blip appeared on the
display. About the same time, a voice came over the radio comm.

"This is the United Nations Peace Keeping Force. Surrender your vessel
and prepare to be boarded."

Niles was having a bad day.


Ship: UN PKF Patrol Ship
Class: UN PKF Patrol Ship
Type: Patrol Ship
Architect: Dan Roseberry
Tech Level: 8

USP
         PB-0101112-000000-00002-0 MCr 31.675 95 Tons
Bat Bear                       1    Crew: 18
Bat                            1    TL: 8
Cargo: 22.400 Fuel: 1.900 EP: 0.950 Agility: 1 Marines: 15
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops

Architects Fee: MCr 0.317   Cost in Quantity: MCr 25.340


Detailed Description

HULL
95.000 tons standard, 1,330.000 cubic meters, Needle/Wedge Configuration

CREW
Pilot, 15 Marines, 2 Other Crew

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 1G Manuever, Power plant-1, 0.950 EP, Agility 1

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/1 Computer

HARDPOINTS
1 Hardpoint

ARMAMENT
1 Triple Missile Turret organised into 1 Battery (Factor-2)

DEFENCES
None

CRAFT
None

FUEL
1.900 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 56 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
18.0 Small Craft Staterooms, 18 Acceleration Couches, 22.400 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 31.992 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 0.317), MCr 25.340 in
Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
37 Weeks Singly, 29 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
An attempt using HGS to design the UN PKF Patrol Ship from GDW's
Belter. The original ship had a .5g drive; the HGS version can be viewed
as a new improved version. 

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 18:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug 11 17:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Great book
Message-ID: <200208120040.MOR00372@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Just reading the new Project Orion book.

Apparently, the idea was Ulam's.  And he didn't propose it 
for a manned vehicle - it was for a weapon system that could 
accelerate at 10,000g.

Are there any systems (FFS or GURPS) that end up with a 
10,000g missile?
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 18:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug 11 17:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: UN PKF Patrol Ship
Message-ID: <3D570384.D408C23@mail.cswnet.com>

Niles day was so bad that he couldn't even spell HALF right:

>When he lifted of from the rock, the number two fuel line ruptured >and dumped >>>have<<< of his ships gas out into space.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 18:56:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Angus McDonald)
Date: Sun Aug 11 17:56:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
Message-ID: <OF9A9D1E69.C3593D67-ONCA256C12.00808BF3@dnsalias.com>

Forgive a newbie, but wouldn't your point be that cutting trade off with 
the rest of the world would not crash the Phillippines economy?

If that is your point then it is debatable, I'd hate to see what the 
Phillippines would look like without international trade. You'd lose a lot 
of high-value adding services and products (no overseas engineers, 
architects, teachers, economists). Heck, in Traveller you'd probably also 
be restricting their information access (no XBoats), which limits their 
ability to develop and grow. Pretty soon you'd probably be looking at a 
society dropping in TL.

Imagine if their one import was something that everyone depended on, like 
a vitamin, or special plant fertiliser, or air ... not every system is 
going to have a nice wide range of elements, and maybe the cost to get it 
out of the ground/atmosphere will be greater than it costs to import it 
... 
---  from  ---
Angus McDonald
www.falkayn.com




Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
Sent by: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
12/08/2002 08:35 AM
Please respond to tml

 
        To:     tml@travellercentral.com
        cc:     (bcc: Angus McDonald/Dancrai)
        Subject:        Re: [TML] Rockballs and Economy


richard honeycutt wrote:

[Tim wrote:]
> > No offense to inhabitants of the Phillipines, but I don't think
> > they prop up the rest of the world.

>                That sounds like the tail wagging the dog.

Yes it does.  That's why I don't believe it would happen in Traveller,
either.  The Phillipines interact about as much with the economy of
the rest of the world as the Imperium interacts with the economy of
most high-pop rockballs.

If you don't think cutting trade with the Phillipines would crash the
economy of the rest of the world, why would you think that removing
the Imperium would crash the economy of a high-pop rockball?



> According to GDW, any world that was completely self-supporting was
> seen as being dangerously isolationist.

If that's in TNE, I'm not interested.


> The Imperium would no doubt put political pressure on the world to
> be better integrated into the imperial economy

If you actually look at the data, you would see that the Imperial
economy consists of a relatively small number of economic powerhouses
(the high-pop systems) with barely-visible threads of trade between
them.  The only "integrated" worlds are the low-pop ones.


> and the megacorps would put trade pressure on such a world

How do you put effective trade pressure on a world that is completely
self-supporting?


> Trade is an enormous carrot or damaging stick when dealing with
> another political entity.

How many times do I have to repeat this?  That is true only in
current-day Earth, where trade for most nations is between 25% and 80%
of their overall economy.

Trade value in Traveller is, literally, *hundreds* of times less.
That's not my opinion, it's in the published rules.

Trade to a high-pop Traveller world is a 3-gram carrot when you're not
really hungry, or a crumbling stick that is more likely to snap off in
your hand than hurt someone else.


> If it is broken then I feel all reasonable efforts should be made to fix 
it.

Gven my earlier research, 0.4 hectares per person would suffice at our
tech level (TL8).

Probably halve that at TL9 as tailored organisms produce most of the
raw foodstuffs for meat animal production (which takes most of the
space at the moment).  Halving again at TL10 with more efficiency
still.

Drop that by a factor of about 10 at any tech level where land is
substantially more expensive to develop than the benefit you get from
free light energy.


> I forgot the equation for surface area of a sphere so I guesstimated
> it to be about 60% of the area of a cube of equal size, probably
> wrong.

Actually about right.  Did you remember to square the radius?


> My point was to show lack of space for the population, agriculture,
> manufacturing, resources, energy production, etc.

My point was that there is no lack of space.  Planets are *big*.


>  I followed the rules without comparing them as yet to the RW.

How much area do the rules say it takes?


> I still want to know why anyone would advocate the population of the
> earth being shoehorned on a rock half the size of the moon. The old
> excuses wear thin after a few times.

"Shoehorned" is hardly the word.  The average population density would
be less than many *rural* areas on Earth.  Most likely, it started off
smaller and grew.


> Why was trade halted anyway?

I don't care.  I'm interested in the effects, not in the causes.


- Tim
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml





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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 18:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Aug 11 17:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
In-Reply-To: <20020811220521.39A1327940@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B97C5630.694FF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/11/02 3:05 PM, Eris Reddoch at erisred@telocity.com wrote:

>> James Dean as Rico. I know, he died in 1955. I don't care.
>=20
> So, go ahead with Presley as Johnny Rico. With proper direction
> Presley could have pulled it off, and it might have launched him in a
> direction where, in that universe, he'd have never made those awful
> movies in the 60's.

What about Sal Mineo for Johnny Rico?

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 19:04:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 18:04:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <3D5791CF.9450.889980@localhost>
References: <02081114040900.00604@linux> <20020812083508.B15923@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D5791CF.9450.889980@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020812110205.A16290@freeman.little-possums.net>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> However it is also in published canon that trade warfare (the
> Traveller Adventure) is practised and effective.

Oh, it would be highly effective against mid- to low- pop worlds that
aren't high tech.  It just wouldn't be effective against the high-pop
worlds with at least middling tech that we're talking about.

Trade warfare is something that high-pop moderate-to-high tech worlds
can apply against lesser worlds, but is not effective against worlds
of a similar stature.


[Tukera]
> For it to be a megacorp from this it must be able to generate about the 
> same revenue from it as the other megacorps (which effectively own 
> entire worlds, remember) do from other forms of activity, much of which 
> is probably not trade-based.

How many megacorps own entire *high-pop* worlds outright?

I would imagine that any company that outright owns fifty worlds of a
few tens of millions people each would qualify as a mega-corp, with
annual turnover of ten trillion credits or so.  Tukera could match
that if it had a significant percentage of the interstellar shipping
business (which it apparently does).

There can be a huge amount of trade without it being a significant
portion of the economy of each high-pop world.  And there is.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 19:08:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Aug 11 18:08:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
In-Reply-To: <B97C5630.694FF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020812010625.E62B32793F@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/11/02 at 05:58 PM,  Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
said:

>on 8/11/02 3:05 PM, Eris Reddoch at erisred@telocity.com wrote:

>>> James Dean as Rico. I know, he died in 1955. I don't care.
>> 
>> So, go ahead with Presley as Johnny Rico. With proper direction
>> Presley could have pulled it off, and it might have launched him in a
>> direction where, in that universe, he'd have never made those awful
>> movies in the 60's.

>What about Sal Mineo for Johnny Rico?

Not a bad choice. <g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 19:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 18:15:03 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811190529.0161b050@192.168.0.1>
References: <02081114275201.00604@linux> <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt> <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net> <02081114275201.00604@linux> <20020812075652.A15923@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020811190529.0161b050@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020812111400.B16290@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> Hmmm....I'll have to start looking, just how many medium to high pop
> rockballs with a TL 9 or under are there?

I get about 60-70 from a quick database search, counting "medium to
high pop" as population code 6 or higher.  Most of them actually have
pop 6.

Quite a bit less if you restrict the search to systems in the Imperium.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 19:17:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Mellman)
Date: Sun Aug 11 18:17:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Land grab webring
In-Reply-To: <20020811184038.2233.10156.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> from "tml-request@travellercentral.com" at Aug 11, 2002 11:40:38 AM
Message-ID: <200208120114.VAA04947@shell.cinternet.net>

Hey Mark,

I'll throw Belizo into a land grab webring if one forms.  Just tell me
when and how.

 ...........................................................................
  Bill Mellman
  mailto:tml@idbin.com
  http://www.mellman.net/bill/
  http://www.geocities.com/mellmanw/Traveller
 ...........................................................................



 .   Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 11:32:12 -0400
 .   To: tml@travellercentral.com
 .   From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net>
 .   Subject: Re: [TML] Land grab webring
 .   Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
 .   
 .   At 11:30 PM 8/10/2002 -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
 .   >At 10:31 PM 8/10/02 -0400, you wrote:
 .   >>Any interest in a webring of landgrab sites?
 .   >
 .   >Yes!  It would encourage me to get a few planets put together and on the web.
 .   
 .   Ok, that's two yes votes (besides me).  I'm willing to set it up and 
 .   administer it.
 .   It might be nice to have the home page as the downport landgrab page.
 .   
 .   I would host it at ringsurf.com, which is run by our friends at Quiklinks, 
 .   who also make GRIP Traveller and T20.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 19:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug 11 18:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
Message-ID: <59.1fb611e5.2a8868d3@aol.com>

 >> My point was to show lack of space for the population, agriculture,
 >> manufacturing, resources, energy production, etc.
 >
 My point was that there is no lack of space.  Planets are *big*.

A planet 1000 miles in diameter with a population of 1 billion will have 2 
surface acres per person.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 19:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 18:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <OF9A9D1E69.C3593D67-ONCA256C12.00808BF3@dnsalias.com>
References: <OF9A9D1E69.C3593D67-ONCA256C12.00808BF3@dnsalias.com>
Message-ID: <20020812114000.C16290@freeman.little-possums.net>

Angus McDonald wrote:
> Forgive a newbie, but wouldn't your point be that cutting trade off with 
> the rest of the world would not crash the Phillippines economy?

Welcome to the list :)

No, that's not my point at all.  Trade with the Phillipines is about
the same proportion of the world economy as Imperial trade is to a
high-pop world's economy.  If it makes it easier for you, you could
think of the Phillipines as being the starport.

The trade value for high-pop worlds in Traveller is so low that there
are no Earthly examples of a nation that is so isolated.


>  I'd hate to see what the Phillippines would look like without
> international trade.

Yes, the economy around the starport would probably crash.  That
wouldn't devastate the rest of the world though.


> maybe the cost to get it out of the ground/atmosphere will be
> greater than it costs to import it

Yes, that's an argument for a cut in the 0.3% trade leading to maybe a
3% drop in the system's economy.  Not a 90% drop though, nor a
sure-fire recipe for massive layoffs, rioting and revolution.

In fact, in your scenario it might lead to a brief surge in the local
economy.  What used to be unloaded by a few starport workers now needs
more labour to develop.  Less efficient compared to importing it, yes
-- but if you say it's vital, it will be done.  The research and
development required could actually have a net beneficial effect in
other areas as well.

I'm not saying it *will* be beneficial, but it's certainly far from
clear that it will be highly detrimental even if the resource they
import is vital.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 19:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 18:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <59.1fb611e5.2a8868d3@aol.com>
References: <59.1fb611e5.2a8868d3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020812114228.D16290@freeman.little-possums.net>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> A planet 1000 miles in diameter with a population of 1 billion will
> have 2 surface acres per person.

Yes, a population density lower than many rural areas of Earth.

It certainly won't be a big planet-spanning city as seemed to be
implied.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 19:49:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 18:49:04 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in
 traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <20020812111400.B16290@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811190529.0161b050@192.168.0.1>
 <02081114275201.00604@linux>
 <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
 <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt>
 <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <02081114275201.00604@linux>
 <20020812075652.A15923@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020811190529.0161b050@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811214634.026feff0@192.168.0.1>

At 11:14 AM 8/12/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
> > Hmmm....I'll have to start looking, just how many medium to high pop
> > rockballs with a TL 9 or under are there?
>I get about 60-70 from a quick database search, counting "medium to
>high pop" as population code 6 or higher.  Most of them actually have
>pop 6.
>Quite a bit less if you restrict the search to systems in the Imperium.

Interesting...Thanks.  I'll have to find one, preferably in the Imperium 
and Land Grab it.
Preferably TL 7 or lower.  That would make things interesting...


-------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
In the US, obesity is a more serious health problem
among the poor than starvation. That's something that
would have been science fiction to anybody who grew up
before, say, 1900, or even 1950
-------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 19:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 18:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Land grab webring
In-Reply-To: <20020811211638.72037.qmail@web13401.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811112842.01a82eb0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811215525.029cdbb8@192.168.0.1>

At 02:16 PM 8/11/2002 -0700, Bernie McGeehan wrote:
>Feel free to use the Rockhead graphics, etc, if you
>like. I've run out of time to do it right.

Are you the owner?
If so, would you mind transferring the ring to me?>



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.new/EWW/
"Treeware" - Manuals and documentation.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 20:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 19:04:02 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811214634.026feff0@192.168.0.1>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811190529.0161b050@192.168.0.1> <02081114275201.00604@linux> <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt> <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net> <02081114275201.00604@linux> <20020812075652.A15923@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020811190529.0161b050@192.168.0.1> <20020812111400.B16290@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020811214634.026feff0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020812120335.E16290@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> Interesting...Thanks.  I'll have to find one, preferably in the
> Imperium and Land Grab it.  Preferably TL 7 or lower.  That would
> make things interesting...

How about Cold Rock, TL 5?  Old Expanses/Vendtup 2829, UWP=E4006A7-5

The Old Expanses are quite a distance from most campaigns though.
I have no data on it beyond what's in the database, unfortunately.
7 million people, no belt, 5 gas giants.  Probably not too warm :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 20:14:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Aug 11 19:14:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Failed Worlds
In-Reply-To: <004001c24179$4a42b850$7400a8c0@matt>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNOEAHEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>  >They say clearly that there is a lot of trade.  A lot of
>>  >trade makes sense.
>>
>> Depends on what you mean by "a lot".  Consider trade amounting to 0.4% (a
>> number cited earlier) of a 10 billion population world's productivity.
>Seen
>> from the perspective of an individual trader with a 400 ton merchant ship
>> then that's an awful lot of goods being flown around, but as a percentage
>of
>> that world's economy it's not world-breaking.
>>
>> The planet generation system is simply random.  It generates arbitrary
>> results and leaves it to the referee to rationalize why things turned out
>the
>> way they did.  This may lead to interesting game plots, but it cannot
bear
>> the level of scrutiny and examination that is being given it.
>
>The problem is that the trade rules are broken.
>
>No-one seems to be taking into account intra-system trade stopping. If you
>rely on resources from asteroid or comet mining, or you are scattered
>throught a system in thousands of smaller outposts rather than all clumped
>on one rockball,  and spacecraft trade in-system stops as well as
out-system
>then you are screwed.
>
>Also, monetary value alone doesn't fully represent the reliance a place may
>have for a low cost but essential resource not available locally. Say the
>atmophere filters on a planet with a badly tainted, but otherwise
>breathable, atmoshere require a relatively cheap catalyst that is not
>available locally. These filters constantly need replacing, but the cost is
>only a few 10's of millions of Cr a year. Suddenly all external trade
>stops... as a percentage of your GWP it is a drop in the ocean, but in
terms
>of the planets viability it is tremendous.
>

Of course this brings up the fact that the system rules are also broken.
Under First In for example, worlds in a system other than the main world can
have a sizable population. As a matter of fact each world in the system can
have a population almost as great as the main world. As a matte fact FI
states that if two worlds in a system have the same population then the main
world is the one in the star's life zone.

What this does is dilute the GNP of each and every system, making the BTN as
calculated using the Trade rules in Far Trader an even smaller. Fewer dtons
of cargo and fewer passengers as a percent of a ***system's*** economy.

There is a fix that would allow the number as published to be used. That is
to count both the population and trade numbers as representative of the
system instead of the main world. Trade classification modifiers, which are
related directly to the main world, should not be a problem, because the
main world will generally be the best world in the system for habitation. No
other world in the system should be in a position to get better modifiers
than the main world.

This has other aspects as well, which could be useful. Balkanized
**systems**, as opposed to worlds, would be possible, opening up tickets for
those spacer merc units described in SM. If the whole system is occupied (as
is likely for a space faring civilization) then the Highport could be in the
out skirts of the system, to better reduce jump masking and minimize the
time ships spend enroute to the starport. Also it reduces the load on some
of those really high population worlds. The population could be spread out
over a number of planets in the system, reducing the load on the individual
world to something more reasonable.

Thoughts?

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 20:15:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Aug 11 19:15:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <20020812114228.D16290@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEAIEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

So perhaps the problem is that the GT trade rules, in particular, work
better for places like the Spinward Marches when you're talking about trade
done by Free Traders, than they do for High Pop worlds in the interior
joined together by megamerchants.

So what's the cutoff here? How much trade is necessary to make the back
story of collapsing economies, riots and loss of tech level when trade is
interrupted plausible?


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 20:19:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 19:19:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Great book
In-Reply-To: <200208120040.MOR00372@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208120040.MOR00372@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020812121739.F16290@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> Are there any systems (FFS or GURPS) that end up with a 10,000g
> missile?

Technically GURPS solid rockets have no upper limit on their peak
acceleration -- but their burn duration will be very short.

It really wimps out on Orion drive acceleration though, since the
system described is probably based on the assumption of a manned
vehicle.

10000 gee acceleration is a *lot*.  What sort of materials can take
that much stress in a macroscopic object?  Even a block of solid steel
is likely to rupture.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 20:21:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Aug 11 19:21:10 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in  traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811214634.026feff0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNIEAJEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

Of course part of this goes back to what does TL mean. Any world which is a
member of the Imperium, and does not have its educational system purposely
dumbed down (by, let us say, a religious theocracy, for example) should be
teaching (G)TL12 science and technology in their educational system. This
makes it much more unlikely that TL will drop as the result of isolation.

As an aside, I noticed that in the early JTAS almost every low TL world
described as part of an adventure is explained as being a newly rediscovered
remnant of the Long Night. It would seem that the coexistence of low tech
and high tech worlds with trade for half a dozen centuries was not an
original fixture of the OTU.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 20:26:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 19:26:25 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in
 traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <20020812120335.E16290@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811214634.026feff0@192.168.0.1>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020811190529.0161b050@192.168.0.1>
 <02081114275201.00604@linux>
 <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
 <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt>
 <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <02081114275201.00604@linux>
 <20020812075652.A15923@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020811190529.0161b050@192.168.0.1>
 <20020812111400.B16290@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020811214634.026feff0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811221941.0296bbc8@192.168.0.1>

At 12:03 PM 8/12/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
> > Interesting...Thanks.  I'll have to find one, preferably in the
> > Imperium and Land Grab it.  Preferably TL 7 or lower.  That would
> > make things interesting...
>
>How about Cold Rock, TL 5?  Old Expanses/Vendtup 2829, UWP=E4006A7-5
>
>The Old Expanses are quite a distance from most campaigns though.
>I have no data on it beyond what's in the database, unfortunately.
>7 million people, no belt, 5 gas giants.  Probably not too warm :)

Cool. :-)

I'll run it through Heaven & Earth and start figuring it out...
Hmmm...Gas Giant moons would take the place of the asteroid belt for a 
source of mining & water...

Let's dig out my copy of the Traveller Book...TL 5
c. 1900-1939   Early computers...visions of TL 9 and A percomps being used 
to run life support systems...
Keeping old surplus small craft running using local parts...Vac suits that 
look like diving suits...



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
And, isn't sanity really just a one trick pony anyway? I mean, all you get
is one trick: rational thinking. But when you're good and crazy, ooo hoo
hoo, the sky's the limit! - The Tick  http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 20:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Aug 11 19:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <20020812110205.A16290@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <02081114040900.00604@linux> <20020812083508.B15923@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D5791CF.9450.889980@localhost> <20020812110205.A16290@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <1029120923.3d57239b4a4dd@www.paradise.net.nz>

Quoting Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>:

> [Tukera]
> > For it to be a megacorp from this it must be able to generate about
> the 
> > same revenue from it as the other megacorps (which effectively own 
> > entire worlds, remember) do from other forms of activity, much of
> which 
> > is probably not trade-based.
> 
> How many megacorps own entire *high-pop* worlds outright?
> 
> I would imagine that any company that outright owns fifty worlds of a
> few tens of millions people each would qualify as a mega-corp, with
> annual turnover of ten trillion credits or so. Tukera could match
> that if it had a significant percentage of the interstellar shipping
> business (which it apparently does).
> 
> There can be a huge amount of trade without it being a significant
> portion of the economy of each high-pop world. And there is.

If that were the case the _real_ megacorps would be the companies that settled 
for being highly active in the internal economies of a few hi-pop worlds, and 
treated the trade between them as incidental. If interstellar trade is only 
0.3% of a world's total economy even a company like Tukera wouldn't compare to 
a large corporation on a hi-pop world that had subsidiaries and branches 
throughout a populous sub-sector.

I suggest that the easier answer is that Far Trader is simply wrong. Older 
canon in Hard Times, The Traveller Adventure, and other sources dealing with 
Trav history (including some you're not interested in - TNE, etc.) say that 
trade is very important to worlds. The whole premise for the 3I is that its 
guarantee of good interstellar trade conditions was very attractive to most 
worlds. If trade is so unimportant to the major worlds of the 3I why did so 
mnay join willingly?

-- 
Rupert Boleyn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 21:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Angus McDonald)
Date: Sun Aug 11 20:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
Message-ID: <OFED183D4C.6BA32B37-ONCA256C13.000A8F10@dnsalias.com>

>>>
No, that's not my point at all.  Trade with the Phillipines is about
the same proportion of the world economy as Imperial trade is to a
high-pop world's economy.  If it makes it easier for you, you could
think of the Phillipines as being the starport.
<<<
Aah ... I see (said the blind man). It would still be better to look at 
somewhere that is more vital to the world economy, a source of high 
technology, perhaps Japan? Interstellar trade, if it exists at all, will 
either be high-value good for high-value good, or low-value bulk goods for 
high-value goods. I can imagine a planet sending it's mineral resources 
offworld (especially if radioactives) in return for a small amount of 
high-value offworld goods. The effect of cutting that off? You'd probably 
bankrupt the mining companies, inconvenience people relying on the 
offworld products and perhaps cause a lot of civil unrest (why'd I lose my 
lucrative mining job?).

>>>
The trade value for high-pop worlds in Traveller is so low that there
are no Earthly examples of a nation that is so isolated.

>  I'd hate to see what the Phillippines would look like without
> international trade.

Yes, the economy around the starport would probably crash.  That
wouldn't devastate the rest of the world though.

> maybe the cost to get it out of the ground/atmosphere will be
> greater than it costs to import it

Yes, that's an argument for a cut in the 0.3% trade leading to maybe a
3% drop in the system's economy.  Not a 90% drop though, nor a
sure-fire recipe for massive layoffs, rioting and revolution.
<<<
A lot of this depends upon the Traveller trade rules, and whether your 
hi-pop world relies on imported Imperium high tech devices much. I'm sure 
the President won't mind having to give up his gravcar limo, but if the 
world's main agriculture source requires high-tech to do its work, then 
things could get nasty. It could be nastier if the people that own 
everything are offworlders, you might get a situation where eveyone loses 
confidence in the economy, because the major financial backers from 
offworld have pulled out, taking their plant & equipment with them.

>>>
In fact, in your scenario it might lead to a brief surge in the local
economy.  What used to be unloaded by a few starport workers now needs
more labour to develop.  Less efficient compared to importing it, yes
-- but if you say it's vital, it will be done.  The research and
development required could actually have a net beneficial effect in
other areas as well.

I'm not saying it *will* be beneficial, but it's certainly far from
clear that it will be highly detrimental even if the resource they
import is vital.
<<<

I guess the argument is that a hi-pop world must be pretty much 
self-sufficient in order to survive at all, given that interstellar trade 
is so small. To be hi-pop at all the world must be providing most of their 
own food/water, and _probably_ has a diverse industrial base. The most 
likely change is political (is this where this thread started?) as the 
government steps in to nationalise the offworlder capital base and 
guarantee jobs/survival. You almost certainly would have riots as people 
were fired and lost their jobs, slacking off once the government stepped 
in to put them back at work.

I think IMTU interstellar trade will be more important for most hi-pop, 
hi-tech worlds and very unimportant for hi-pop, lo-tech worlds (especially 
if they have hi-agri). Lo-pop worlds will vary wildly.

---  from  ---
Angus McDonald
www.falkayn.com

--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
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---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 21:11:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Aug 11 20:11:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Great book
In-Reply-To: <20020812121739.F16290@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <B97C7539.69535%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/11/02 7:17 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:

>=20
> 10000 gee acceleration is a *lot*.  What sort of materials can take
> that much stress in a macroscopic object?  Even a block of solid steel
> is likely to rupture.
>=20
Not likely, since Leupold and Stevens, a scope manufacturer proofs their
pistol scope designs at 10,000 G.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 21:13:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Aug 11 20:13:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Great book
In-Reply-To: <20020812121739.F16290@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <200208120040.MOR00372@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <20020812121739.F16290@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <1029121840.3d5727301b171@www.paradise.net.nz>

Quoting Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>:

> John T. Kwon wrote:
> > Are there any systems (FFS or GURPS) that end up with a 10,000g
> > missile?
> 
> Technically GURPS solid rockets have no upper limit on their peak
> acceleration -- but their burn duration will be very short.
> 
> It really wimps out on Orion drive acceleration though, since the
> system described is probably based on the assumption of a manned
> vehicle.
> 
> 10000 gee acceleration is a *lot*. What sort of materials can take
> that much stress in a macroscopic object? Even a block of solid steel
> is likely to rupture.

I get 70000 odd G as the acceleration of an M16 bullet, so it's doable. Whether 
it's doable outsode a gun barrel or with so,ething that's not a solid block is 
another matter.

-- 
Rupert Boleyn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 21:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 20:18:02 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in
 traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNIEAJEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811214634.026feff0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811231114.029cc008@192.168.0.1>

At 10:14 PM 8/11/2002 -0400, Terry Carlino wrote:
>Of course part of this goes back to what does TL mean. Any world which is a
>member of the Imperium, and does not have its educational system purposely
>dumbed down (by, let us say, a religious theocracy, for example) should be
>teaching (G)TL12 science and technology in their educational system. This
>makes it much more unlikely that TL will drop as the result of isolation.

TL is what the planet can sustain.  There are can, and probably are, Grav 
Based transports, but those are imports, as are the parts to maintain them.
It could be a planet with great religious freedom, but an oppressive 
government.
Transport on planet is under strict government control.  The government 
uses air/rafts and grav limos.
Workers take buses to their factories.  They have to get permit to access a 
train in order to travel to another city.
Maybe they don't need a permit, but the government finds it easier to keep 
track of citizens and their movements if they are limited to lower tech 
transport methods.

They could be using TL C farming equipment.  Expensive imports.  So they 
rely on locally produced TL 7 equipment for other aspects of life.

>As an aside, I noticed that in the early JTAS almost every low TL world
>described as part of an adventure is explained as being a newly rediscovered
>remnant of the Long Night. It would seem that the coexistence of low tech
>and high tech worlds with trade for half a dozen centuries was not an
>original fixture of the OTU.

Depends on where you are.  In the Core or out in one of the "Frontier" sectors.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 21:22:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ken Murphy)
Date: Sun Aug 11 20:22:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style
Message-ID: <F121PeKljq65Rn8P5o70000d29f@hotmail.com>

   Hi gang,
   Over the last little while I had been going over alternate ship combat 
rules for Traveller; cadging bits from here and there in an effort to cobble 
together something a little different from the usual HG or MT ship combat.
   Well, having recently made the jump to our new computer, I discovered a 
file I'd had previously somehow *didn't* make it; having gone the way of the 
Dodo during the transfer of files.
   In any case, it was information from an old Dragon magazine on different 
types of ship's weapons for Traveller.
   I believe the article featured roundshot projectors,infinite repeater 
rail/coillguns,and other bits, in addition to *Disintigrator* weapons. IIRC, 
these things as designed would *disolve* a different volume of displacement 
tons per unit; the amount varying with TL.
   I think there also might've been  Anti-Disintegrator technology of some 
sort; a spionge or filter or something which had X charges it could absorb.
   Does anyone know what I'm talking about and have access to this article, 
and if so, could I get a copy?
   Thanks in advance for any help :)
  -Ken Murphy-

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 21:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug 11 20:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
Message-ID: <3D572D20.9506FD49@mail.cswnet.com>

Nothing to add really, just keep this thread going;
I know its going to give me some detail for my landgrab ;)

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 22:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 21:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Broken Links: Anyone know where they really are now?
Message-ID: <pp6eluc7hj57m61c5ff320m97pc6ntf431@4ax.com>

I just did a maintenance run on Freelance Traveller, and came up with a
bunch of broken links.  Can anyone tell me where these links _should_ be
pointing to at this point in time?

Broken Links:

><http://enterprise.hb.se/~goeran/traveller/> - Gran Damberg's Traveller, the Web Pages.

><http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/Traveller/Rivals of the Third Imperium.htm> - Stuart Ferris's Rivals of the Third Imperium Webring homepage.

><http://home.earthlink.net/~jamstar/traveller/boats.html> - Deckplans mailing list

><http://home.sn.no/~starwolf/HIWG> - HIWG Homepage

><http://merc.travellercentral.com/> - Tod Glenn's La Mercenaire

><http://ouray.cudenver.edu/~lwlguatn/trv.html> - Leroy's (Guatney) Traveller Campaign

><http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/AndySlack/traveler.htm> - Andy Slack's Halfway Station Traveller Page

><http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller> - Michel Vaillancourt's Near Earth Campaign

><http://www.bifrost.demon.co.uk/Gaming/Utils/PlanetStats.html> - Samuel Penn's Planetary Statistics java app.

><http://www.bifrost.demon.co.uk/Gaming/Utils/PlanetStats.java> - Source for above

><http://www.bigbailey.com/vspace> - Mike Linsenmayer's Virtual Space

><http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/BITS_website/Software/QSDS_Demo.sit.hqx> - Rob Prior's QSDS demo HyperCard app

><http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/traveller/> - Peter Miller's Traveller

><http://www.ecafe.org/philadelphia/index.htm> - link to Philadelphia Experiment from Ken Pick's article on tweaking the jump drive

><http://www.et.byu.edu/~jongoff/RPG/Trav.html> - John Goff's TNE Section

><http://www.fas.org/dod-101/sys/ship/names.htm> - Link to detailed information on USN ship names from Ken Pick's article on naming ships.

><http://www.geocities.com/Area51/dimension/7081/4I.html> - Fourth Imperium Working Group webring page

><http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/5776/mtcgsrc.html> - Gregory Svenson's MegaTraveller Character Generator (source code)

><http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/trav2.htm> - Kevin Walsh's Free Trader Beowulf Traveller Web Page

><http://www.iinet.net.au/~mickb> - Michael Bailey's home page (link on his Author page at Freelance Traveller)

><http://www.leonidae.org/traveller/> - Andy Akins's Taneis Down Interstellar Starport

><http://www.metronet.com/~washi/Tas> - Rob and Suzanne Eaglestone's TAS

><http://www.novia.net/~odysseus/index.html> - The Crashland City Downport (owner's real name unknown)

><http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj/Traveller/index.html> Dave's (Golden) Traveller Site

><http://www.schirf.com/traveller> - Paul Schirf's Traveller Page

><http://www.teleport.com/~douglas> - Douglas Glatz home page (also links to pages below this location)

><http://www.travellerguns.com> - Tod Glenn's Mercenaries' Guide to Weapons

><http://www.warships1.com/UScvl22_Independence.htm> - link to page about the USS Independence from Ken Pick's article on the Essex.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 22:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Ayers)
Date: Sun Aug 11 21:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Broken Links: Anyone know where they really are now?
In-Reply-To: <pp6eluc7hj57m61c5ff320m97pc6ntf431@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <001101c241b8$1a172eb0$2f7de40c@loki>

<http://www.bigbailey.com/vspace> - Mike Linsenmayer's Virtual Space

is now the hypercube and a Traveller Ring member at:
<http://www.thehypercube.com/>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 22:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Aug 11 21:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Broken Links: Anyone know where they really are now?
In-Reply-To: <pp6eluc7hj57m61c5ff320m97pc6ntf431@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <B97C8BDB.6954C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/11/02 9:16 PM, Jeff Zeitlin at jzeitlin@cyburban.com wrote:

>=20
>> <http://merc.travellercentral.com/> - Tod Glenn's La Mercenaire

Folded into travellercentral
>=20
>> <http://www.travellerguns.com> - Tod Glenn's Mercenaries' Guide to Weapo=
ns

http://weapons.travellercentral.com

(Couldn't justify paying for another domain name)

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 22:49:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 21:49:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Great book
In-Reply-To: <B97C7539.69535%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020812121739.F16290@freeman.little-possums.net> <B97C7539.69535%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020812144751.H16290@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> Not likely, since Leupold and Stevens, a scope manufacturer proofs
> their pistol scope designs at 10,000 G.

That's impressive, but I was thinking about bigger things when I heard
"missile".  Smaller objects resist acceleration better (square-cube
law again).

A baseball pitcher could really throw it hard against a steel wall and
it would be undamaged, and it would survive a truck being driven over
it?


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 22:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 21:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [www] 11 Aug 2002 - Freelance Traveller Updated
Message-ID: <a9felukt8ja6gtusjbr5u2qqb0kvb1a6tl@4ax.com>

Freelance Traveller, the Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource has
posted its most recent update to http://www.freelancetraveller.com,
and http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller, and our mirror at
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller.

In this update:

 - Minor link fixups have been made throughout the site.  Because of an
   attack of real life, including much stress and a storm that knocked out
   our ability to update the site for a day, this is really a token update.
   The next update will be next week, and will be far more extensive -
   there will be lots of time available to do this next update.

Your questions, comments, and ideas are always welcome at Freelance
Traveller.  Please write to editor@freelancetraveller.com with any and all
of them, or use the feedback form at .../infocenter/feedbackform.html.
Freelance Traveller depends on the good will of Traveller fans both to
visit our site and justify our existence, and to write for us, making our
existence possible.



Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture 
Enterprises, 1977-2000.  Use of the trademark in 
this notice and in the referenced materials is not 
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.freelancetraveller.com
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
editor@freelancetraveller.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 23:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 22:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEAIEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <20020812114228.D16290@freeman.little-possums.net> <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEAIEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20020812150125.I16290@freeman.little-possums.net>

Terry Carlino wrote:
> So what's the cutoff here? How much trade is necessary to make the
> back story of collapsing economies, riots and loss of tech level
> when trade is interrupted plausible?

I would guess trade >= 20% of GWP would be badly affected in general.
Special cases with trade of less than 5% or so might be badly hurt.

Dropping a few tech levels is something I'd normally reserve for
worlds that have the majority of their economy devoted to trade.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 23:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 22:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <1029120923.3d57239b4a4dd@www.paradise.net.nz>
References: <02081114040900.00604@linux> <20020812083508.B15923@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D5791CF.9450.889980@localhost> <20020812110205.A16290@freeman.little-possums.net> <1029120923.3d57239b4a4dd@www.paradise.net.nz>
Message-ID: <20020812151548.J16290@freeman.little-possums.net>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> If that were the case the _real_ megacorps would be the companies
> that settled for being highly active in the internal economies of a
> few hi-pop worlds, and treated the trade between them as incidental.

If they can capture the majority of the economy of those worlds, yes.
Even so, 10% of the trade of ten thousand worlds is still bigger than
50% of any few of them.

Tukera is still a very major player either way.

Of course, I should point out that none of the biggest companies in
*our* world have gross revenues more than 1% of our GWP.


> I suggest that the easier answer is that Far Trader is simply wrong.

I've got no problem with that.  I've been saying so for ages.  I have
far more trade IMTU, I'm just discussing the OTU as depicted by the
published rules because to talk about MTU isn't very useful to others.

I'll also note that not many people agreed when I said that the G:FT
rules were wrong :P


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 23:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Hamill)
Date: Sun Aug 11 22:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure: Frontier Rescue
Message-ID: <20020812053010.6814.qmail@web21501.mail.yahoo.com>

 
 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 23:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 22:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <OFED183D4C.6BA32B37-ONCA256C13.000A8F10@dnsalias.com>
References: <OFED183D4C.6BA32B37-ONCA256C13.000A8F10@dnsalias.com>
Message-ID: <20020812154457.K16290@freeman.little-possums.net>

Angus McDonald wrote:
>  It would still be better to look at somewhere that is more vital to
> the world economy, a source of high technology, perhaps Japan?

For a high-trade Imperium or a low-tech/low-pop world, that would be a
better comparison.  Not for high-pop worlds in the GT Imperium,
though.


> A lot of this depends upon the Traveller trade rules, and whether
> your hi-pop world relies on imported Imperium high tech devices
> much.

The standard GT:Far Trader rules are pretty explicit.  They don't.
Whether the GT:FT rules are a good model is not a question I'm
addressing.


> I think IMTU interstellar trade will be more important for most
> hi-pop, hi-tech worlds and very unimportant for hi-pop, lo-tech
> worlds (especially if they have hi-agri). Lo-pop worlds will vary
> wildly.

IMTU it's the low-tech or low-pop worlds that depend on trade the
most.  High-tech worlds can adapt to produce just about anything.
Low-tech worlds are much less flexible, and low-pop worlds rely on
trade for infrastructure development and maintenance.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 01:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 00:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMEMFCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: William Spencer <shadowjack@skyhighway.com>
>
>Now, to really capture Starship Troopers in a movie, we should draw from
the
>time it was written, which was...[pulls out the book, checks the publishing
>date]...1959.

>THERE'S a proper book-to-movie adaptation.
>
>I wish I had it on DVD.

You know, given recent developments in video technology, in a few years, you
might be able to make that movie yourself.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 01:16:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 00:16:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arbellatra
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEMFCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
>
>IMO the IN of CT is actually quite open to various forms of cronyism,
>nepotism, etc. It and the Marines are the two services where a good Soc
>improves your chances and, unlike the Marines, in the Navy your Soc can
>improve during service (all according to Book 1).

Do real navies have the custom of "wetting down" a new stripe so that it
will stick?  I read a novel once in which a USN officer was promoted while
serving on a ship, and he had to throw a drinking party for all of the other
officers at a nice restaurant at their next port of call (which was in
Spain, as I recall).  He had to take an advance on his next few paychecks to
cover it.  In any event, this could be a fun piece to throw into a Traveller
game.  (And where do you think that Carousing skill comes from, anyway?)

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 01:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Mon Aug 12 00:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <200208111835.MOF00148@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020812074725.29858.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>

Very interesting. Is there a link to a site that
involves Phoenix Command Combat?
Maybe my games would include a bit more combat, if the
system was more interesting. Right now, my games don't
include a lot of combat. My current campaign has been
going on since December, we play about 3 hours every
Mon night and we've only had about 3 combat
situations, since we started. I'm actually a little
proud of that fact, but my players would like to see a
little more combat.
thanks for the info and charts. I may try it out.
Dan.

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 02:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Aug 12 01:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Dougs MOS and Language (was Audible Signature...)
In-Reply-To: <a28d9168.9168a28d@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020812013610.009f5ec0@mindspring.com>

At 10:34 PM 8/11/02 +0300, you wrote:

> > My MOS was 11-B.  John Groth  talks to 'em, I just put bullets in
> > their bodies.
>
>Assuming that they hold off on surrendering long enough for you to shoot
>at them.... ;-)
>
>To answer the question, my MOS is 97E4P00AE.  And yes, I too went
>through Fort We-Gotcha when the MOS code was 96C.... ;-)
>
>Now you see why I don't expect to retire when I'm eligible.... :-(

John, you have to read Tim Powers' _Declare_ first chance you get.  A large 
chunk is set in areas you frequent, and will have you hiding under your cot 
when the wind howls outside.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 03:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Mon Aug 12 02:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style
In-Reply-To: <F121PeKljq65Rn8P5o70000d29f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020812090622.62065.qmail@web11807.mail.yahoo.com>

>    Does anyone know what I'm talking about and have
> access to this article, 
> and if so, could I get a copy?
>    Thanks in advance for any help :)
>   -Ken Murphy-
> 
I have a few really old Dragons. I acquired them
recently, and haven't really read them yet. You
wouldn't have a clue as to which issue, or maybe the
year of the issue?

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 03:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 12 02:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
Message-ID: <150c9d1542de.1542de150c9d@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel Tackett <haegen2001@yahoo.com>
Date: Monday, August 12, 2002 10:47 am
Subject: Re: [TML] Folding stocks

> Very interesting. Is there a link to a site that
> involves Phoenix Command Combat?
> Maybe my games would include a bit more combat, if the
> system was more interesting.

<<snip>>

Have you considered _At Close Quarters_ from BITS?




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 03:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Mon Aug 12 02:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <150c9d1542de.1542de150c9d@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <20020812091323.19972.qmail@web11804.mail.yahoo.com>

> 
> Have you considered _At Close Quarters_ from BITS?
> 
> Sounds familiar, but no, I've never tried it. Who
makes it?
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 04:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Mon Aug 12 03:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Broken Links: Anyone know where they really are now?
Message-ID: <memo.792770@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <pp6eluc7hj57m61c5ff320m97pc6ntf431@4ax.com>
Greetings dear hearts.

Not always a fail-safe, but when a site has disappeared it has often been 
archived on the Wayback Machine.

Go to http://www.archive.org/ and type the URL of the 'lost' site into the 
search box.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.
Snoop of this parish.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 05:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug 12 04:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Great book
Message-ID: <200208121101.MPL01105@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>10000 gee acceleration is a *lot*.  What sort of materials 
>can take that much stress in a macroscopic object?  Even a 
>block of solid steel is likely to rupture.

The components for a 155mm artillery shell are certified to 
100,000g, and have been so since the 1970s.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 05:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Hamill)
Date: Mon Aug 12 04:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure: Frontier Rescue
Message-ID: <20020812111141.33337.qmail@web21505.mail.yahoo.com>

Prologue
20 June, 2346 A.D. 1325 GMT
Leiber IV system
New Wyoming 

The winter culling of the herds was almost over. In
only two weeks the cargo ships that would take the
meat, hides, and other usable parts of what the locals
rerferred to as duffs would arrive. Most families
hadn't yet met their quotas, and skinner to herd boss,
were working around the clock to get finished. Others
were done or nearly so, and would get to New Cheyenne
early, to start the party before the ships arrived.
One of those was the Nguyen family.

Dan Nguyen, herd boss of the family, was organizing
the last of the culling operations when he got a call.
"Hey Bossman, can you spare a second? There's
something I want to show you." Dan grinned, "Sure
Little Mickey, I'll be right over." He turned down the
volume control as his earpiece exploded with curses
and threats. "Little Mickey", his younger brother, was
over 2 meters tall, and massed over 130 kilos, and
really resented being called by his childhood
nickname. Dan walked over to his ATV, climbed inside,
flicked the power switch on, and smoothly accelerated
towards where his brother should be.

When he got there he saw his brother standing next to
one of their hired hands, named Sam. Sam looked to be
in some pain, and was holding his right arm at his
side. "Uh Oh," He thought, "Mike better not be getting
into scraps with the hands again." He got out of the
ATV, and walked between the placidly eating duffs over
to where the two men stood. "Ok, whats going on?" He
asked. Mike looked over to his brother, "Well, I think
I'd better let Sam tell you, I really didn't see the
whole thing, I got here afterwards." Sam shifted his
injured right arm and started talking, "Well it was
the damndest thing, I was starting to put the bolter
up to that duff's head over there," motioning with his
head at a duff nearby grazing, " and the thing lifted
up it's head, looked straight at me, and headbutted
the bolter right out of my hands! The bolter went
flying, and I think the big bastard knocked my arm out
of its socket, cause I can't work it right." Dan
narrowed his eyes and looked Sam over. He didn't look
drunk, and Sam had been with the family for a few
years now, and wasn't the type to lie or exaggerate to
get out of trouble. "I've never heard of a duff doing
anything like that before, ever." "I know Boss, but I
swear that's just what it did!" "Well, if you're sure
about it, maybe we need to look over that duff, and
see if anything's wrong with it." 
Mike had been looking around in the grass during this,
stopped, bent over and retrieved the bolter. "It looks
OK, I'm just going to try it out to see if it works."
Mike walked over to the duff that Sam had picked out.
Dan suddenly got a strange feeling, and called out to
his brother. "Wait a minute, let's check that du..."
He stopped as his brother, hefting the bolter to the
duff's forehead, came face to face with the animal. It
was looking straight at him. Mike and the duff stared
into each others eyes for a moment, and then the duff
started a low rumble in the back of its throat, which
picked up in pitch and intensity to a high scream.
Mike began to back away from the animal, but it was
too late. The seemingly enraged duff charged Mike,
hitting him and tossing him 4 or 5 meters away, where
he lay still, then rushing to the prone man and
beginning to stomp, kick, and bite at him. Sam and Dan
looked on in horror, until Sam noticed the other duffs
in the herd had noticed the attack, and were watching
it and them. "Uh, Boss, I think we'd better..." "
Yeah, you're right Sam, let's get back to my ATV." The
two men began to back away, with some of the duffs
beginning to follow, some of them beginning to make
the same rumbling sounds the first duff did. Dan
looked back to where his brother lay. "Sam, when I
yell run as fast as you can to my ATV, and try to get
some help." "We can both run at the same time,
Boss..." "No Sam! I have to go back for my little
brother. Now RUN!" With that Dan gave Sam a push and
turned back towards where his brother lay. Sam ran as
fast as he could towards the ATV, tears of pain and
fear streaming down his face. He could hear behind him
the screams of the duffs, and the angry cries of Dan
Nguyen. Dan's voice was suddenly cut off with a
painful scream. Then Sam could both feel and hear the
Duffs begin to charge towards him. The fear and
adreniline gave him the power to run the ladt few
steps in a heartbeat. He pulled himself up the two
rungs to the driver's door, opened it up, and pulled
himself inside. Pulling the door shut, he could see
the herd running towards him. He fumbled with his good
hand for the radio. "Emergency! Emergency! Kill Team 2
has an emergency! Oh god, Mike and Dan are dead, and
the d..." As he spoke the enraged duffs struck the
ATV, throwing him into the inside wall, knocking him
out. He didn't wake as they overturned the vehicle, or
when the climbed onto it, crushing it with their
weight. Of course, it was much too late by then.

End Prologue

Thank you to those of you who helped me find GURPS
Modular Vehicles, and GURPS Character Builder. The
above was the prologue to the adventure that I ran for
some new Traveller players this weekend. I will post
the rest of the adventure as short fiction, if anyone
is interested. It went well, and several players
wanted to know if it could continue as a campaign.
Success!
Once again thank you to all the listers who helped me,
and to all those others who by their comments and
ideas on this list helped me start running Traveller
after a long time.

John
jwdh71@yahoo.com  


__________________________________________________
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HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 05:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Mon Aug 12 04:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure: Frontier Rescue
Message-ID: <memo.794790@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <20020812111141.33337.qmail@web21505.mail.yahoo.com>
Greetings dear hearts.

I for one would be fascinated to hear the rest of the adventure...

(Preferably in scenario form but no matter.)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 05:46:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 12 04:46:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
Message-ID: <19a45e19f516.19f51619a45e@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel Tackett <haegen2001@yahoo.com>
Date: Monday, August 12, 2002 12:13 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Folding stocks

> > 
> > Have you considered _At Close Quarters_ from BITS?
> > 
> > Sounds familiar, but no, I've never tried it. Who
> makes it?

Written by Doug Berry and James Lindsay and published by BITS, ACQ is a 
combat rules supplement for Traveller.  While ACQ was designed for T4, 
it includes conversion rules for CT, MT, TNE and GT (T20 hadn't been 
published when ACQ came out).  For more info (and/or to order ACQ), 
check out the Warehouse 23 link below.

http://www.warehouse23.com/item.cgi?BITSRACQ

BTW, the BITS site seems to be down.  Or is it jut me...?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 06:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 12 05:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Wanted: FF&S2 Ships
Message-ID: <1aacc61a9e40.1a9e401aacc6@us.army.mil>

~also posted to JTAS~

I'm starting up a variant TNE campaign (set in the Solomani Rim, 
featuring conflicts between the Terran Republic and the Dingir League) 
using T4 rules, and I'm looking for a few ships of 5000 dtons or 
smaller.  I have already designed a number of ships for this campaign, 
but I'd appreciate a few ships designed by someone else.

Thanks in advance!

PS:  I haven't gone through any of the TML Ship Rodeo designs; do any of 
them meet the above criteria (FF&S2, <= 5000 dtons)?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 06:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 05:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Broken Links: Anyone know where they really are now?
In-Reply-To: <pp6eluc7hj57m61c5ff320m97pc6ntf431@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020812082311.0205ceb8@192.168.0.1>

At 12:16 AM 8/12/2002 -0400, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
>I just did a maintenance run on Freelance Traveller, and came up with a
>bunch of broken links.  Can anyone tell me where these links _should_ be
>pointing to at this point in time?
>
>Broken Links:
[snip]
> ><http://www.travellerguns.com> - Tod Glenn's Mercenaries' Guide to Weapons

It's there, but the domain got stolen somehow.  Look under 
www.travellercentral.com.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 06:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 12 05:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The power of the Nobility
Message-ID: <1c089d1c0020.1c00201c089d@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Date: Thursday, July 25, 2002 10:52 pm
Subject: [TML] Re: The power of the Nobility

> >From: Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net>
> >Subject: Re: [TML] Re: The power of the Nobility
> >
> >From what I've read (from a libertarian site) 
> >Voir Dire appears to be a French term for jury
> >tempering.
> 
> A jury should indeed be well tempered:

<<snips definitions of "tempered">>

Sorry, but my first thought upon seeing the word "tempered" was the use 
of that term in Heinlein's _Farnham's Freehold_.  In that book 
"tempered" is synonymous with "castrated."

OTOH, I can think of some well-known jury verdicts that would lead me to 
belive that the jurors involved should be tempered, in order to remove 
them from the gene pool.... ;-)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 06:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 05:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMEMFCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020812082551.01a17e18@192.168.0.1>

At 12:10 AM 8/12/2002 -0700, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> >From: William Spencer <shadowjack@skyhighway.com>
> >Now, to really capture Starship Troopers in a movie, we should draw from
>the
> >time it was written, which was...[pulls out the book, checks the publishing
> >date]...1959.
> >THERE'S a proper book-to-movie adaptation.
> >I wish I had it on DVD.
>You know, given recent developments in video technology, in a few years, you
>might be able to make that movie yourself.

Hence the current drive by various Hollywood based industries for laws 
calling for *extremely* tight controls on things like CD & DVD burners.
 From what I understand, the Phantom Edit, and the Phantom Re-edit were not 
well received by the studio...

Hmmm....this is an interesting hobby for a crew during Jump, film making.
Shoot scenes against a blue screen, add the background in the editing process.
Re-edit to match the culture of the planet you're en-route to.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Vikings? There ain't no Vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was
burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway.
That's our story and we're sticking to it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 06:33:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Angus McDonald)
Date: Mon Aug 12 05:33:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
Message-ID: <OF6637FD53.2C67D73A-ONCA256C13.0023873E@dnsalias.com>

>>>
The standard GT:Far Trader rules are pretty explicit.  They don't.
Whether the GT:FT rules are a good model is not a question I'm
addressing.
<<<
I'm not familiar with the GT:FT rules, it sounds like we agree that more 
trade is desirable. In fact I'm pretty much going to focus on T20 for 
future roleplaying (although I'll be using old CT, MT and T4 material).

>>>
IMTU it's the low-tech or low-pop worlds that depend on trade the
most.  High-tech worlds can adapt to produce just about anything.
Low-tech worlds are much less flexible, and low-pop worlds rely on
trade for infrastructure development and maintenance.
<<<
If it mirrors 'modern' economics then hi-tech worlds will import stuff 
that can be produced more cheaply elsewhere, whilst lo-tech worlds will 
try to become the sweatshop of choice for hi-tech worlds in order to get 
enough credits to become hi-tech themselves. In terms of GWP, it might 
well be that imports/exports are a greater % for the lo-tech worlds 
(incidentally, Charles Handy a respected British business guru makes some 
interesting points about how GDP measures spending and thus indicates a 
society is richer if they spend more - even if they are in fact giving up 
quality of life for those goods ... e.g. GDP goes up every time a parent 
returns to the workforce, while they put their kids into daycare, but 
society is not necessarily better off - it all depends upon what you want 
to measure with GWP).

One of the hardest things to find in the universe is a world that easily 
supports life without technological intervention. If a hi-tech society 
finds such a world that has lo-tech, hi-pop, then you would almost 
certainly want to help them improve their TL so that they become a better 
market for your own exports (which are helping to pay for all those 
vacc-suit decals [t-shirts] you're importing, not to mention that really 
hi-tech stuff that you want to have [TL 15-16]). It's a bit like the 
current situation with China - a massive population waiting to consume all 
those nice 'necessary' western goods.

Must run,
---  from  ---
Angus McDonald
www.falkayn.com




Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
Sent by: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
12/08/2002 03:44 PM
Please respond to tml

 
        To:     tml@travellercentral.com
        cc:     (bcc: Angus McDonald/Dancrai)
        Subject:        Re: [TML] Rockballs and Economy


Angus McDonald wrote:
>  It would still be better to look at somewhere that is more vital to
> the world economy, a source of high technology, perhaps Japan?

For a high-trade Imperium or a low-tech/low-pop world, that would be a
better comparison.  Not for high-pop worlds in the GT Imperium,
though.


> A lot of this depends upon the Traveller trade rules, and whether
> your hi-pop world relies on imported Imperium high tech devices
> much.

The standard GT:Far Trader rules are pretty explicit.  They don't.
Whether the GT:FT rules are a good model is not a question I'm
addressing.


> I think IMTU interstellar trade will be more important for most
> hi-pop, hi-tech worlds and very unimportant for hi-pop, lo-tech
> worlds (especially if they have hi-agri). Lo-pop worlds will vary
> wildly.

IMTU it's the low-tech or low-pop worlds that depend on trade the
most.  High-tech worlds can adapt to produce just about anything.
Low-tech worlds are much less flexible, and low-pop worlds rely on
trade for infrastructure development and maintenance.


- Tim
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml





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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 06:35:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sebastian Rogers)
Date: Mon Aug 12 05:35:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Efate
Message-ID: <26B39E1664DDD311A1010008C7DB51FDEA9CE3@TIKITNT4>

Hello There
 
Just working on Efate from the point of view of a Striker campaign, and also
the jump off point for the next Traveller Adventure, and wondered how the
land grab is going?
 
Basically I was hoping to use anything you'd done so far.
 
Cheers

Sebastian Rogers <-- "I've got the medicine you need, I've got the power,
I've got the speed", Ian Kilminster

Technically Architected

 


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 06:38:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 05:38:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Wanted: FF&S2 Ships
In-Reply-To: <1aacc61a9e40.1a9e401aacc6@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020812083136.0197b1e8@192.168.0.1>

At 03:03 PM 8/12/2002 +0300, john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:
>~also posted to JTAS~
>I'm starting up a variant TNE campaign (set in the Solomani Rim,
>featuring conflicts between the Terran Republic and the Dingir League)
>using T4 rules, and I'm looking for a few ships of 5000 dtons or
>smaller.  I have already designed a number of ships for this campaign,
>but I'd appreciate a few ships designed by someone else.


Try the Gearhead webring

http://www.ringsurf.com/netring?ring=travgearhead;action=home


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 07:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug 12 06:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Great book
Message-ID: <200208121345.MPR01625@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>That's impressive, but I was thinking about bigger things 
>when I heard "missile".  Smaller objects resist acceleration 
>better (square-cube law again).

I think it has more to do with the duration of the impulse as 
well.  An artillery shell only has to put up with the 
100,000g shock for a split second.

An Orion ship spends much more time coasting between shots 
than it does handling the blast.  This is evidently how it 
handles the nuclear explosions temperatures as well.

According to the design, a disk of propellant is also 
suspended between the bomb and the pusher plate.  When the 
bomb goes off, according to the book no one will see a 
detonation until the x-rays reach the propellant - and even 
then, there isn't a flash until the ionized propellant 
strikes the pusher plate, where there would be a brilliant 
flash at approximately 120,000 degrees.  But the duration is 
so short, there isn't time to effectively heat the pusher 
plate.  They estimated that over the duration of a trip from 
ground launch (where the bombs would be around 1 kiloton), to 
orbit (where the bombs would be around 5 kiloton), and cruise 
to Saturn and back to low earth orbit, the total duration of 
high temperature against the pusher plate would be around one 
second.

Some of the brightest minds in physics were assembled for 
this project, and the only technological hurdle given for 
stopping the project was concern for fallout in Earth's 
atmosphere.  They were convinced that all other technological 
objections (shock, G-loads, vaporization of the pusher plate) 
were solved.  It has been proposed that a device that could 
initiate a thermonuclear explosion without a fission trigger 
would eliminate the last hurdle.  Still, such a machine would 
have to take off from a fairly unpopulated area, such as a 
remote island, and there might be EMP effects along the 
initial flight path - but these are 1 kiloton yield, and not 
bombs the size of strategic thermonuclear warheads.

The version that would carry people would accelerate at an 
average of 2 to 4 G.

The physicists did some calculations that indicate that any 
engine that operated at the same thrust and isp (in essence, 
at the same temperature, mass flow, and exhaust velocity) 
could never under any circumstances operate as a rocket with 
an internal combustion chamber - Orion is an external 
combustion chamber.  Fusion engines, if they are to achieve 
their optimum specs, will also operate as external 
combustion, in order to prevent the volatilization of the 
engine itself.  That last part is a matter of simple physics 
and heat transfer.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 07:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug 12 06:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
Message-ID: <200208121350.MPR02053@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Daniel Tackett asks
>Very interesting. Is there a link to a site that
>involves Phoenix Command Combat?

The game itself is out of print, but the books can be had.
The site is www.phoenixcommand.com.

Interestingly, Phoenix Command is only a combat system.  
Although roleplaying books were written for the system, they 
are not very interesting, other than to come up with 
scenarios where combat will take place.

And now I will cue Doug to shamelessly promote his work, 
because if you want a little more accuracy in combat, but you 
and your players aren't completely nuts and bolts about the 
details of combat, you should use Doug's book, which is 
available from BITS.  I like it much better than the CT, MT, 
or GURPS systems, but it doesn't take an hour to resolve 10 
seconds of combat actions.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 08:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 07:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #915 - 25 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20020812074802.18165.19115.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020812074802.18165.19115.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <fpfflu4v6q4smc523ttlhcop67sjcme1en@4ax.com>

On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 00:48:02 -0700, John Hamill <jwdh71@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Message: 19
>Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 22:30:10 -0700 (PDT)
>From: John Hamill <jwdh71@yahoo.com>
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>Subject: [TML] Adventure: Frontier Rescue
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
> 
> 
>

...and that was it.  John, care to try again?  And maybe try copying
submissions@freelancetraveller.com in the process?
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 09:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Mon Aug 12 08:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] ArchiveX/all good things...
Message-ID: <3D57D18F.708EC97E@mail.cswnet.com>

I see the archive is down again.

Im trying to find all of the "All good things..." posts from last month.

Did anybody save those?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 09:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Mon Aug 12 08:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Fwd: Penguin Airlines??
Message-ID: <20020812152722.57956.qmail@web11004.mail.yahoo.com>

  >>
  .....*Ahem*.....Forwarded from a friend from another
list without comment......

     MACessna
  >>
--- Michael Cessna wrote:
> Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 08:22:34 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Michael Cessna 
> Subject: Fwd: Penguin Airlines??
> To: Michael Cessna <graymask1120@yahoo.com>
> 
> 
> Note: forwarded message attached.
> 
> 
> =====
> Michael A. Cessna
> 
>
************************************************************
> "There is no such thing as low intensity violence."
> A. M. Gray, Commandant, USMC (ret)
>
************************************************************
>
> Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 19:43:00 -0700
> From: J. G.
> Subject: Penguin Airlines??
> To: 
> 
> Ok, so they use Linux.  Great.
> 
> I still don't think an airline naming themselves
> after a flightless bird 
> is a Good Idea.
> 
>
<http://www.desktoplinux.com/articles/AT3386270774.html>
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 10:53:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Aug 12 09:53:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Wanted: FF&S2 Ships
In-Reply-To: <1aacc61a9e40.1a9e401aacc6@us.army.mil>
References: <1aacc61a9e40.1a9e401aacc6@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <20020812175552.5470ae9b.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 15:03:10 +0300
john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:

> I'm starting up a variant TNE campaign (set in the Solomani Rim, 
> featuring conflicts between the Terran Republic and the Dingir League) 
> using T4 rules, and I'm looking for a few ships of 5000 dtons or 
> smaller.  I have already designed a number of ships for this campaign, 
> but I'd appreciate a few ships designed by someone else.

I have this 1000 ton TL-9 freighter, maybe that will help? Apologies for the lack of floorplans and the crappy layout of the text. My files are in disorder right now. There never were any deckplans anyway, but the rest of the problems would be fixed.

The ship has two maneuver engines, one antigravity drive used to float between ground and orbit, and one fusion rocket used for interplanetary travel (not to be used anywhere near settlements). It has a jump drive and fuel enough for two jumps, making it capable of going where other low-tech ships cannot.

I designed the ship to use in my (still after almost two years of preparations) upcoming First Contact campaign, therefore the low tech-level.

-----------------
Judith class freighter
Cost: MCr 477.374

Crew: 9
Captain, Pilot, Navigator/Co-pilot, Electronics operator, Chief engineer, Power plant engineer, Maneuver drive engineer, Jump drive engineer, Space hand/Steward

Armor: 0        (T4 value)
Structure: 12   (T4 value)
-----------------
Hull: 1000 ton streamlined long box
 Dimensions: 48.1 x 24.2 x 12 meters
 Hull material: Light ceramic composite
 Maximum safe acceleration: 1.8 G 

Standard antigravity drive
 Maximum gravity countered: 1.11 G (loaded), 2.64 G (fuel only), 3.09 G (empty)
 Thrust factor: 0.08

Fusion rocket drive
 Maximum acceleration: 0.56 G (loaded), 1.32 G (fuel only), 1.54 G (empty)
 Fuel consumption: 245 m^3 LHyd per hour at full thrust 

Jump drive
 Fuel consumption: 1400 m^3 LHyd per jump 

Fission plant (TL8)
 Fuel consumption: 25.9 m^3 radioactives per year
 Power output: 259.26 MW 

Electronics
 Two standard and one fiberoptic computer (TL9), Computer Power 2.0
 High automation, computer linked controls
 Navigation aids and fligth avionics (TL8)
 Radio communicator (TL8), 1000AU range, 200 m^2 antenna
 Passive scanner (TL9), sensivity 13.5, 20 m^2 antenna, resolution at 50000 km is 13 meters

Fuel tanks
 All fuel tanks are included in the life support volume
 LHyd internal tank: 4000 m^3
 Radioactives internal tank: 26 m^3 

Living quarters and crew areas
 5 small staterooms (2 beds each)
 2 sanitary facilities
 Crew lounge: 56 m^3
 Ordinary galley: 4 m^3
 Food storage: 0.5 m^3
 Sickbay: 112 m^3
 Ship's locker: 4.5 m^3
 8 computer linked workstations
 9 crew G-tanks (including crewstations) 

Life support
 Type III (standard) life support with a duration of 4 weeks
 Food for 9 persons, 4 weeks of normal meals, two weeks of emergency meals
 Main airlock: 4-person airlock with decontamination facilities
 Secondary airlock: 2-person airlock
 Maintenance airlocks: Four 1-person airlocks 

Cargo holds
 Cargo hold volume: 7283 m^3 (520.3 Td)
 Cargo hatches: 21 normal-sized (20 m^2) hatches
 Handling equipment: 21 cranes with a capacity of 36 tons per hour each.
 Loading/unloading time: 9h 40m 
---------------

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 11:00:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug 12 10:00:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEAIEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029171559.113.ajackson@ping>

Terry Carlino writes:
> So perhaps the problem is that the GT trade rules, in particular, work
> better for places like the Spinward Marches when you're talking about trade
> done by Free Traders, than they do for High Pop worlds in the interior
> joined together by megamerchants.
> 
> So what's the cutoff here? How much trade is necessary to make the back
> story of collapsing economies, riots and loss of tech level when trade is
> interrupted plausible?

Enough trade that there wouldn't be any worlds in the main parts of the
Imperium with a pop below 8 or a TL below C.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 11:07:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 10:07:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Broken Links: Anyone know where they really are now?
In-Reply-To: <20020812165303.25790.64770.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020812165303.25790.64770.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <laqflusa9f50m7ak1emuov58g9mc3o5r6c@4ax.com>

On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 09:53:03 -0700, mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan
Robertson) wrote:

>In-Reply-To: <pp6eluc7hj57m61c5ff320m97pc6ntf431@4ax.com>
>Greetings dear hearts.

>Not always a fail-safe, but when a site has disappeared it has often been 
>archived on the Wayback Machine.

>Go to http://www.archive.org/ and type the URL of the 'lost' site into the 
>search box.

Oh, I know about the Wayback Machine; I use it myself sometimes.  But this
is more an issue of keeping links in Freelance Traveller up-to-date; sites
that are 'irrevocably' lost, but available in the Wayback Machine, will
eventually be snarfed, and at first inserted /en toto/ into Freelance
Traveller, and then the individual articles assimilated over time - simply
to preserve good material.  However, I want to try to keep links updated in
preference to cyberarchaeology/cybercryptrobbing.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 11:12:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 10:12:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #916 - 22 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20020812165303.25790.64770.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020812165303.25790.64770.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <4jqflug1l5ggt3pjmujq78tf7djodkqeik@4ax.com>

On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 09:53:03 -0700, John Hamill <jwdh71@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Prologue
>20 June, 2346 A.D. 1325 GMT
>Leiber IV system
>New Wyoming 

>Thank you to those of you who helped me find GURPS
>Modular Vehicles, and GURPS Character Builder. The
>above was the prologue to the adventure that I ran for
>some new Traveller players this weekend. I will post
>the rest of the adventure as short fiction, if anyone
>is interested. It went well, and several players
>wanted to know if it could continue as a campaign.
>Success!
>Once again thank you to all the listers who helped me,
>and to all those others who by their comments and
>ideas on this list helped me start running Traveller
>after a long time.

You could have saved four words by putting a period after 'short fiction'
instead of a comma, and dropping the four words immediately following.

Please be sure to copy submissions@freelancetraveller.com separately when
you post further installments.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 11:15:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug 12 10:15:16 2002
Subject: Armor Schemes (was: Re: [TML] mines)
In-Reply-To: <20020810180812.B6285@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029171921.7515.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:

> Of course, neither is going to do much against a standard missile
> doing 6d x 4000 (5).  Half a million points of armour is really just
> getting silly (and infeasible).  :/

Well, spaced armor should actually be effective against missiles; basically, as
long as the mass density of the outer layer is moderately close to the mass
density of the missile (about 300 lb/sf, or a DR of 7,500 with GTL 12 armor),
the outer layer will disintegrate the missile, vastly reducing penetration
against the inner layers.  The problem with spaced armor is that realistically
it's _less_ effective than normal armor against lasers, or against any sort of
projectile that doesn't disintegrate on impact.

OTOH, there's no real reason to have empty spaces in the armor; just about any
non-critical components can plausibly be put between the hull layers.
> 
> 
> - Tim
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 
> 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 11:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Aug 12 10:26:02 2002
Subject: Armor Schemes (was: Re: [TML] mines)
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1029171921.7515.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B97D3D81.695C6%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/12/02 10:05 AM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@iii.com wrote:

>=20
> OTOH, there's no real reason to have empty spaces in the armor; just abou=
t any
> non-critical components can plausibly be put between the hull layers.

Not to mention low mass armor materials, like foam or aerogel.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 11:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 12 10:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Wanted: FF&S2 Ships
Message-ID: <2fc2c72f988d.2f988d2fc2c7@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Date: Monday, August 12, 2002 6:55 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Wanted: FF&S2 Ships

> On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 15:03:10 +0300
> john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:
> 
> > I'm starting up a variant TNE campaign (set in the Solomani Rim, 
> > featuring conflicts between the Terran Republic and the Dingir 
> League) 
> > using T4 rules, and I'm looking for a few ships of 5000 dtons or 
> > smaller.  I have already designed a number of ships for this 
> campaign, 
> > but I'd appreciate a few ships designed by someone else.
> 
> I have this 1000 ton TL-9 freighter, maybe that will help? 
> Apologies for the lack of floorplans and the crappy layout of the 
> text. My files are in disorder right now. There never were any 
> deckplans anyway, but the rest of the problems would be fixed.

Yes, this will serve quite nicely, since at least one of the worlds in 
my campaign has a Class A starport and a TL of around 9.

Much obliged! 

<<snip>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 11:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Mon Aug 12 10:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Broken Links: Anyone know where they really are now?
Message-ID: <memo.804609@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <laqflusa9f50m7ak1emuov58g9mc3o5r6c@4ax.com>
> Oh, I know about the Wayback Machine; I use it myself sometimes.  But 
> this
> is more an issue of keeping links in Freelance Traveller up-to-date; 
> sites
> that are 'irrevocably' lost, but available in the Wayback Machine, will
> eventually be snarfed, and at first inserted /en toto/ into Freelance
> Traveller, and then the individual articles assimilated over time - 
> simply
> to preserve good material.  However, I want to try to keep links 
> updated in
> preference to cyberarchaeology/cybercryptrobbing.

Very wise, I use it for the same purposes myself.

But it's a useful resource and whereas we aging webheads might know about 
it, I'm sure it's a new one to some listmembers :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 12:22:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (john fox)
Date: Mon Aug 12 11:22:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveler Minatures
Message-ID: <DAV508BiC6HbSzxdWGH000331fe@hotmail.com>

Hello Everyone:
  AT one time RAFM manufactured a bunch of Traveler mins.
Do they still make them?
I looked at their web site and could not find them.
If not, where do I look to find some?

John W. Fox

--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/html
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 12:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Mon Aug 12 11:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <B97C1824.694A5%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020812184500.25846.qmail@web11807.mail.yahoo.com>

> DMs for folding stocks are given in Book 1 of CT.
 
My apologies, the modifiers for stocks ARE in the CT
rules. I  wasn't looking hard enough. 
Thanks.

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 13:15:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Mon Aug 12 12:15:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <200208121350.MPR02053@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020812185753.1613.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>

THanks for the links. Phoenix command is just free
online rules now? BITs is only 8 bucks so why not?
Thanks.

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 13:20:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon Aug 12 12:20:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure: Frontier Rescue
In-Reply-To: <memo.794790@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020812191909.C82F92793F@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/12/02 at 12:43 PM,  mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan
Robertson) said:

>In-Reply-To: <20020812111141.33337.qmail@web21505.mail.yahoo.com>
>Greetings dear hearts.

>I for one would be fascinated to hear the rest of the adventure...

>(Preferably in scenario form but no matter.)

That would be my preferance too. I have a bunch of my players on the
TML, but with a bit of "modifying"...<g>...dropping them among the
"duffs" might be an interesting scenerio.

Eris 
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 13:27:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug 12 12:27:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
Message-ID: <200208121926.MQC00016@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Daniel Tackett asks
>THanks for the links. Phoenix command is just free
>online rules now? BITs is only 8 bucks so why not?

At Close Quarters is an add-on for Traveller - it's combat 
rules.

Phoenix Command is not free - you would need the books (4th 
Edition basic rules, plus extensions).  The web site you're 
looking at is put up by gearheads who love it.

Most people would probably prefer ACQ - unless you're an 
ultra gearhead.  Do you and your friends constantly discuss 
the minutiae of combat and weapons?  If not, then you'll be 
happier with ACQ.  If you do discuss minutiae like this, to 
the exclusion of roleplaying (i.e., you like doing this sort 
of thing with miniatures), then Phoenix Command will make you 
happy.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 13:32:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Mon Aug 12 12:32:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Lanth subsector navies IMTU
Message-ID: <3D580C0E.7F070297@mail.cswnet.com>

Lanth subsector naval forces, done with budgets from Meduim Navies.
All is IMTU; YMMV.

Notes:
Imperial Navy ships mostly drawn from Supplement 9.
Imperial Scout Service ships drawn from Supplements 7 and 9, along
with HGS for the Type S Scout ships.
Colonial and Planetary ships exclusively using HGS.

I have about 10-12 pages of just usp&#8217;s for the ships listed below, so if
your interested in any particular one drop me a note and I&#8217;ll send it
out to you. I tried to use the Imperial Data Package model for the
colonial ships. This is apparent in the use of the F-5 I Tiger units.
The F-5, in each of its formats, is 15dt and carries a tripple missile
turret. The Type S scouts are done in the same fashion, with the TL11
Scout being the one most familiar 2g, j2, etc, the TL10 and 9 Scouts are
2g, j1. Alot of fighters are used simply because there cheap. The Lanth
subsector doesn't have a HI POP world, so cheap firepower is the order
of the day.

Imperial Navy, Lanth subsector forces:
6 Naval Bases
2 Gionetti Light Cruisers
6 Chrysanthemum Destroyers
12 Fleet Couriers
36 Type T15 Patrol Cruisers
1 Fer De Lance Destroyer
3 Gazelle Close Escorts
2 TL13 Gigs (stationed at the Lanth Naval Base)

Imperial Interstellar Scout Service:
5 Scout Bases
8 Xboat Tenders
180 Xboats
39 TL 11 Type S Scouts
10 Survey Scouts

Note: Imperial forces are usually supplemented with units drawn from
Rhylanor and Lunion subsectors.

Colonial and Planetary Navies:

Extolay Colonial Navy:
2 CG10 Gunned Cruisers, 1 FF10 DFC class Frigate, 
10 SDB10 Exactor System Defense Boats,
6 Type T10 Patrol Cruisers, 9 CV9 Very Light Fighter Carriers,
each with 30 TL9 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters (270 total).

Lanth COACC:
9 TL11 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters, 
2 TL10 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters

Ghandi Customs Unit:
1 PF-9 patrol fighter w/5 marines

Wypoc Colonial Navy:
1 TL11 Scout, 2 TL12 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters

Quopist Unified Colonial Navy:
5 TL10 Patrol Cruisers, 3 TL9 Scouts,
11 TL9 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters

Treece Grand Colonial Navy:
10 BB8 Gornshima Battleships, 10 BB8 CAM-118 Gunned Battleships,
10 Type T8 Patrol Cruisers,
4 CV8 Very Light Fighter Carriers each with
40 TL8 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters (160 total),
13 CV7 Very Light Fighter Carriers each with
40 TL7 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters (520 total),
12 Type T7 Patrol Cruisers

Ivendo Colonial Navy:
6 TL10 Scouts, 2 TL9 Scouts.

Tureded Colonial Navy:
3 TL9 Scouts, 3 TL8 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters

Equus Colonial Navy:
4 CG11 Gunned Cruisers, 1 CG10 Gunned Cruiser, 
6 Type T11 Patrol Cruisers,
8 TL11 Type S Scouts, 12 SDB11 Exactor System Defense Boats,
6 TL9 Launches, 8 TypeT10 Patrol Cruisers

Rhise Unified COACC:
1 TL10 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighter

Icetina COACC:
5 TL7 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters

Cogri Colonial Navy:
5 Type T9 Patrol Cruisers, 8 TL9 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters,
14 TL8 Old Solomani Patrol Ships [UN PKF Patrol Ship] 

Skull Grand Navy:
1 BB9 Battleship &#8220;The Dead Head&#8221;, 6 TL9 Scout Ships, 
1 Type T8 Patrol Ship,
4 TL8 Old Solomani Patrol Ships [UN PKF Patrol Ship],
1 CV8 Very Light Fighter Carrier with 
40 TL8 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters

Dinom Corporate Navy:
3 TL9 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters
Note: This is as of 001-1105. Disposition of the fighters after the 
revolution is not known. [Referees, consult JTAS Article on Dinom].

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 13:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Aug 12 12:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Wanted: FF&S2 Ships
In-Reply-To: <2fc2c72f988d.2f988d2fc2c7@us.army.mil>
References: <2fc2c72f988d.2f988d2fc2c7@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <20020812214026.7446b051.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 20:26:32 +0300
john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:

> Yes, this will serve quite nicely, since at least one of the worlds in 
> my campaign has a Class A starport and a TL of around 9.
> 
> Much obliged! 

No problem. Glad that the ship might finally see some action...  *sigh*

Oh well, the upcoming year will contain a lot more RPGs than the latest five years, since I move back to my home town and main group... finally...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 13:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Aug 12 12:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D53003A.1070102@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020809190742.B3949@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D540E41.1040509@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020810113922.D5883@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3D58064C.4020008@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Timothy Little wrote:
> Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
>>The fact that they all share remarkable similarities in background
>>story is mere coincidence ;-)
> 
> 
> Sort of makes a shambles of the acronym "OTU" though :(

Nope, not at all, there's a CT OTU, a MT OTU, a GT OTU...

The problem is that you're trying to view several discrete objects as 
points along a continuum, when in fact they're not.

Note, between TNE, MT, and GT there are no less than three considerably 
different *qualitiative* timelines in the "OTU".

We spend vast amounts of time trying to reconcile different historical 
theories between versions of the game using *qualitative measures* ('Who 
was Arbatrella?') that end up widely divergent, its not at all 
unexpected that *quantitative* measures ('How much trade goes through 
this world?') will never be workable; there's just *way* too much data 
missing, and worse, the data is heavily skewed toward one particular 
aspect, the PC, and small tramp starship traffic, mainly in a single, 
backwater sector, riven by frequent wars.

Quantitatively measuring trade in the 'OTU' is like trying to determine 
predictive measures of trade balances and deficits between, say China 
and the United States, by looking at cross Indian Ocean dhow cargo 
traffic alone.

I'm sure you can come up with all sorts of pretty equations, charts and 
trend lines, but their relationship to reality will be due only to sheer 
coincidence. GIGO.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 13:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas R Glatz)
Date: Mon Aug 12 12:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Broken Links: Anyone know where they really are now?
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 12 Aug 2002 00:16:40 EDT."
 <pp6eluc7hj57m61c5ff320m97pc6ntf431@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020812194740.2ED362793F@mail.travellercentral.com>

> ><http://www.teleport.com/~douglas> - Douglas Glatz home page (also lin=
ks to pages below this location)


Teleport got bought out by Earthlink, and since I started my own hosting =
company anyway, I declined their services.  My home page is at http://dou=
glas.coonpanion.com, my traveller pages are now located at http://travell=
er.geekoids.com

douglas


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 15:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 12 14:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Landgrab Pagaton submission
Message-ID: <ae.2b69ddaa.2a897cce@aol.com>

at http://members.aol.com/exog/myhomepage/pagaton.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 15:10:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ken Murphy)
Date: Mon Aug 12 14:10:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Disintegrators, Dragon style
Message-ID: <F21UrxkQTffgaTuOHti00008e66@hotmail.com>

Daniel comments: I have a few really old Dragons. I acquired them
>recently, and haven't really read them yet. You
>wouldn't have a clue as to which issue, or maybe the
>year of the issue?

   Nope, I'm sorry Dan. I'd originally gotten the info off an acquaintence's 
Dragon CD set :(
  -Ken-

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 15:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Hamill)
Date: Mon Aug 12 14:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Complete Idiocy (was Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #915 - 25 msgs)
In-Reply-To: <20020812165303.25790.64770.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020812213351.67066.qmail@web21510.mail.yahoo.com>

Jeff Zeitlin wrote:

"Message: 19
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 10:00:25 -0400
Organization: None To Speak Of
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #915 - 25 msgs
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 00:48:02 -0700, John Hamill
<jwdh71@yahoo.com> 
wrote:

>Message: 19
>Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 22:30:10 -0700 (PDT)
>From: John Hamill <jwdh71@yahoo.com>
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>Subject: [TML] Adventure: Frontier Rescue
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
> 
> 
>

...and that was it.  John, care to try again?  And
maybe try copying
submissions@freelancetraveller.com in the process?
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com"

Sorry about that Mr Zeitlin, my webmail service seems
to have a mind of its own sometimes. I had just
started writing the e-mail containing the prologue
when my web-browser hiccupped, and suprise! e-mail
without any content. (Meaning no words, not my usual
e-mail which has no content even with words;-) I'll
try not to let that happen again. Mea Culpa, Mea
Maxima Culpa.

John
jwdh71@yahoo.com


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 15:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Aug 12 14:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <200208121926.MQC00016@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020812141413.009e30c0@mindspring.com>

At 03:26 PM 8/12/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Daniel Tackett asks
> >THanks for the links. Phoenix command is just free
> >online rules now? BITs is only 8 bucks so why not?
>
>At Close Quarters is an add-on for Traveller - it's combat
>rules.
>
>Phoenix Command is not free - you would need the books (4th
>Edition basic rules, plus extensions).  The web site you're
>looking at is put up by gearheads who love it.
>
>Most people would probably prefer ACQ - unless you're an
>ultra gearhead.  Do you and your friends constantly discuss
>the minutiae of combat and weapons?  If not, then you'll be
>happier with ACQ.  If you do discuss minutiae like this, to
>the exclusion of roleplaying (i.e., you like doing this sort
>of thing with miniatures), then Phoenix Command will make you
>happy.

Without tooting my horn too much...

ACQ was designed with the idea that it isn't weapons that decide 
firefights, it's the people using those weapons.  Tactical decisions are 
everything, and the difference between surviving and eating lead is 
measured in split-second decisions.  Do you move from cover now, or what 
for the other guy to make a move?

In my experience very few Traveller gun fights take place in open 
areas.  The are all confined to cramped areas like starships, startown 
alleyways, ancient ruins, so that's what I aimed for in the early design 
phase.  The key is controlling yourself and making every Action Point 
count.  It doesn't matter if you do everything right if you are caught 
flat-footed and unable to respond when the other guy makes his moves.

To this end I studied what the USMC calls CQB... Close Quarters 
Battle.  What I found surprised me.  Very few troops in CQB actually aim 
their weapons.  At point-blank range they don't have the time, and consider 
it better to blow a few rounds in the general direction of an 
enemy.  (Note: this does not apply to such specialists as SEAL Team 6 and 
the SAS, but these guys have APPs in the mid-twenties, and can afford to 
spend some on aiming actions.)  Combatants creep along hallways, using 
every piece of cover.  Actual combat when it comes is intense and 
quick.  During the Battle of Hue in 1968, the average firefight with the VC 
came at less than 10 meters, and lasted less than 30 seconds before one 
side was either killed or withdrew.  Reading police reports of actions 
against drug labs and crack houses revealed similar action statements.

That's what James and I wanted; a tense game of sliding down darkened 
corridors, pistol clenched in a sweaty hand, trying to get the drop on the 
Ine Givar holding the Admiral's daughter hostage, knowing that there might 
be a sentry around the corner.  I think we succeeded.  On those occasions 
when I've had the pleasure on running playtests or tournaments, I've 
noticed something interesting.

On the first run through, players burn all their AP running up and blasting 
away.  They then die when they get caught in the open with no AP left.  By 
the second or third game, they are acting like combatants, using available 
cover, working as a team, giving covering fire.. all the things that happen 
in real-life without a system that bogs down in minutiae of weapon 
performance.  I've received compliments on the system from combat veterans 
and police officers.

That, and you can throw penguins as weapons.  What more could you want?


-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is
that I am now a perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague
here is rapidly running out of limbs!"
   - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 16:00:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug 12 15:00:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
Message-ID: <200208122159.MQH03009@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry says
>ACQ was designed with the idea that it isn't weapons that 
>decide  firefights, it's the people using those weapons.  

That's the main reason I use Phoenix Command - You can not 
only misuse your action, though.  There is something called 
initiative time, which is the time required to think about 
the next set of actions.

As an example: Doug has an Intelligence Skill Factor of 21.  
This means his Initiative Time is 8, and Action Number is 5 
(don't confuse Action Number with Action Count, which is the 
number of actions that one can take in 2 seconds).

Doug has just entered a building and is hiding around the 
corner of a corridor.  Somewhere down the corridor is a room 
from which an opponent is firing.  Doug decides to peek 
around the corner and duck back.  This decision takes 8 AC.  
So, 8 AC later he looks around the corner (1 AC) and ducks 
back (1 AC).

Donovan saw an empty corridor with two doors.  The first door 
seems to be the one from which he hears gunfire.  He decides 
to set down his rifle, arm a grenade, draw his pistol, run 
down the corridor, and toss the grenade through the open 
door.  a total of 5 separate actions.  This course of action 
takes 8 AC to devise, so after 8 AC, he proceeds with his 
plan.

Under circumstances where it is not safe to spend the time 
thinking about what to do next, you have to run to the 
nearest safe place (or hide where you are and think some 
more).  It's still possible to react defensively as well, but 
any action that implies personal initiative (such as 
attacking the enemy) requires thought.

The leadership skill has an effect on the initiative time of 
members in the group, as well as an effect on morale.

Combat now takes place on a more realistic time line - 
assuming that at least one team attempts to take coordinated 
action.  There can be substantial periods of silence between 
shots and movement as each side attempts (at the very least 
on an individual basis) to coordinate movements.  Then there 
are bursts of intense action.  A unit with a higher average 
initiative time, and a good leader, will be able to keep up 
the pressure and remain on the offensive, regardless of 
weapon type.  The badly led unit of combat-inexperienced PCs 
will be unable to go on the offensive, and will be swept away.

Overall, it's a lot of bookkeeping - a lot more than for 
ACQ.  But if you're striving for more detail...
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 16:13:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Mon Aug 12 15:13:06 2002
Subject: [TML] ArchiveX/All Good Things...
Message-ID: <3D583148.8FF27481@mail.cswnet.com>

Hey, thanks Leslie. That helps a little bit. Now if I can just find my
stuff and Larsens.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 16:22:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (KevinC)
Date: Mon Aug 12 15:22:06 2002
Subject: [TML] ATTN: Bryan Borich
Message-ID: <3D5834EF.114D8757@cnetech.com>

Bryan,

Please contact me off-list.

-- 
KevinC               Pentapod's World of 2300AD
kevinc@cnetech.com   http://www.geocities.com/pentapod2300/
                     http://go.to/PentapodsWorld


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 16:27:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 12 15:27:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
Message-ID: <42.2ba9b019.2a898fd1@cs.com>

In a message dated 8/11/02 3:55:26 PM Central Daylight Time, 
lesbates@minn.net writes:


> At 04:33 PM 8/11/2002 -0400, Mark Urbin wrote:
> 
> 
> >Yes.  Afleck is just a bit too 'pretty' for Trask. Perhaps as Prince 
> Bentrik.
> 
> Kenneth Branaugh (sp?) as Prince Bentrik.
> 
> >Now...who to play Otto Harkaman?
> 
> Twenty years ago I would have gone with Clint Eastwood as Harkaman. Need
> someone really tall.
> 
> 
> Les
> 
> 

Jeff Goldblum? Just need to make sure he doesn't slouch over so much.

Doug Grimes


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 20:45:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug 12 19:45:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
Message-ID: <200208130059.MQN01926@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>Doug Grimes says
>Jeff Goldblum? Just need to make sure he doesn't slouch over 
so much.


No, it should be David Bowie.  He's a much better actor than 
a singer, and he's got a great presence.  He can be 
appropriately mysterious.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 20:47:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 12 19:47:17 2002
Subject: [TML] High Tech Movie Making
Message-ID: <196.b637a0e.2a89b083@aol.com>

Flipping through a recent FINE SCALE MODELER, I discovered an article on ILMs 
chief model maker for Attack of the Clones . . . I was a little surprised to 
discover how much actual, physical model making still takes place in movies, 
primarily for complicated sets. Basically, the build an arena, cityscape, or 
whatever, and digitize the actors onto it. 

Evidently is is still vastly easier to get good looking shots this way than 
creating them 100% on the computer, at least for some types of shots. Perhaps 
Jesse knows more about this than I do, it being his business and all.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 20:49:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon Aug 12 19:49:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <OF9A9D1E69.C3593D67-ONCA256C12.00808BF3@dnsalias.com>
References: <OF9A9D1E69.C3593D67-ONCA256C12.00808BF3@dnsalias.com>
Message-ID: <m3fzxjr2q8.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Angus McDonald" <angus@dancrai.com> writes:
>
> Forgive a newbie, but wouldn't your point be that cutting trade off
> with the rest of the world would not crash the Phillippines economy?

No--because trade with the Phillipines approximates the amount of
trade a Traveller world has with the Imperium.  It's a mere fraction
of a percent.  Now, it very well might hurt the Phillipines--but we're
not talking about the world's effect on a particular archipelago, but
rather that archipelago's effect on the world.  Which is deuced small.

And, remarkably enough, what the published figures imply must be the
Imperium's economic effect on each of its member planets.

Now, that's a state I can admire: lets its member states do
essentially as they will; interferes very little with their economies;
levies light taxes.  Would bring a tear to a Founder's eye...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Y'see the _real_ reason infantry is the only arm that can take _and_
hold ground is that it's the only one that can't run away.
                                          --Rupert Boleyn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 20:51:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon Aug 12 19:51:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <OFED183D4C.6BA32B37-ONCA256C13.000A8F10@dnsalias.com>
References: <OFED183D4C.6BA32B37-ONCA256C13.000A8F10@dnsalias.com>
Message-ID: <m3bs87r262.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Angus McDonald" <angus@dancrai.com> writes:
>
> Interstellar trade, if it exists at all, will either be high-value
> good for high-value good, or low-value bulk goods for high-value
> goods.  I can imagine a planet sending its mineral resources
> offworld (especially if radioactives) in return for a small amount
> of high-value offworld goods.  The effect of cutting that off?
> You'd probably bankrupt the mining companies, inconvenience people
> relying on the offworld products and perhaps cause a lot of civil
> unrest (why'd I lose my lucrative mining job?).

That's the beauty of money in a market: it doesn't matter _what_ the
good is which is being traded, or what the other goods on the economy
are: the relative values are all fixed by the various market forces
involved.  It doesn't matter if a planet is selling a lot of minerals
for a little bit of Venusian algae-wine, or if it's exporting a few
pints of jewel-critters for 14 tons of wheat; what matters is the
value of the goods exported, the value of the goods imported and the
value of the goods which are produced & consumed within the economy.

So far, the official numbers seem to indicate that there's not an
awful lot of trade in relative terms.  This is not awfully surprising:
it's expensive to put stuff up into orbit and expensive to ship it.

> A lot of this depends upon the Traveller trade rules, and whether
> your hi-pop world relies on imported Imperium high tech devices
> much.

Once again, if they relied on the devices, then the demand would be
higher, and thus the price thereof would be higher, and thus the
fraction of the economy taken up by the devices would be higher.  That
it's not indicates that the prices _aren't_ higher, that the demand
_isn't_ higher and that the devices--while poss. relied upon--are not
relied upon that much, after all.

> I guess the argument is that a hi-pop world must be pretty much
> self-sufficient in order to survive at all, given that interstellar
> trade is so small.  To be hi-pop at all the world must be providing
> most of their own food/water, and _probably_ has a diverse
> industrial base.

There's that as well.  It's just not economical to import life
support.  That's part of the reason that we've not done an awful lot
of space exploration.  Any world is going to naturally grow until
people are at the edge of the comfort limit; a high population world
must therefore be one with a lot of resources to go around.

> The most likely change is political (is this where this thread
> started?) as the government steps in to nationalise the offworlder
> capital base and guarantee jobs/survival.  You almost certainly
> would have riots as people were fired and lost their jobs, slacking
> off once the government stepped in to put them back at work.

More likely is that the value of off-world goods would skyrocket as
trade declined, thus making trade more profitable, thus ensuring that
trade doesn't decline.  Unless some third party gums the gears, in
which off-world goods become priceless and local labour must work to
create alternatives, which will result in a less efficient economy,
certainly, but not necessarily a collapsed one.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I know not what course others may take but as for me, give me liberty
or give me death.                                     --Patrick Henry

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 20:53:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 19:53:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
Message-ID: <20020813011625.95E63450E@mo110usjc.palm.net>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 20:55:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon Aug 12 19:55:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <OF6637FD53.2C67D73A-ONCA256C13.0023873E@dnsalias.com>
References: <OF6637FD53.2C67D73A-ONCA256C13.0023873E@dnsalias.com>
Message-ID: <m37kivr1kd.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Angus McDonald" <angus@dancrai.com> writes:
>
> I'm not familiar with the GT:FT rules, it sounds like we agree that
> more trade is desirable.

I like 'em.  And they are consistent with what one would expect:
there's no real reason that a high population, high tech world _can't_
adapt to produce whatever is needed.  Absent a good explanation, I
don't think that gameplay issues should trump reality (those bits of
the game which are utterly unrealistic are IMHO fairly well-reasoned).

> If it mirrors 'modern' economics then hi-tech worlds will import
> stuff that can be produced more cheaply elsewhere, whilst lo-tech
> worlds will try to become the sweatshop of choice for hi-tech worlds
> in order to get enough credits to become hi-tech themselves.

Not just produced more cheaply: produced and shipped more cheaply for
value received.  The same effect holds IRL, of course: it may be that
Kansas wine may be cheaper to produce, but it's not enough better that
it's worth shipping to Denver--and thus I've never seen a bottle of
Kansan wine, while I've seen many Coloradan wines.

Of course, other factors are at play IRL (tariffs, crossing state
lines and all that entails &c.), but the point stands: an imported
good must be (or perceived to be) overall cheaper per unit of value in
order for it to exist.

For many goods, it just doesn't make sense to import them if local
production can accomodate 'em.  Sure, you'll have small quantities of
off-world grain, off-world spices &c. (esp. for the snob market), but
most grain will be grown at home.

IMHO, in a space-faring society without almost-free shipping, most
trade will be in luxuries.  There's always the planetary noble (or
elected representative, for that matter...) who will want genuine
Spanish saffron, or Reginan brandy, or what-have-you.  But most folks
will deal with the local variant: it's massively cheaper, and almost
as good.

And _please_ trim the tails of your posts:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I have sustained a continual bombardment & cannonade for 24 hours & have
not lost a man.  The enemy has demanded a surrender at discretion,
otherwise the garrison are to be put to the sword if the fort is taken.
I have answered the demand with a cannon shot, and our flag still waves
proudly from the walls.  I shall never surrender nor retreat.
                                         --William B. Travis

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 20:57:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon Aug 12 19:57:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020812082551.01a17e18@192.168.0.1>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020812082551.01a17e18@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <m33ctjr1ew.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> writes:
> 
> Hmmm....this is an interesting hobby for a crew during Jump, film
> making.  Shoot scenes against a blue screen, add the background in
> the editing process.  Re-edit to match the culture of the planet
> you're en-route to.

Unless the destination is a real back-water (on the order of a
research station staffed by a scientist, two assistants and the
scientist's attractive daughter...), I don't think they'd make much
selling the product.

With a population so large as to be nearly incalculable, the artistic
community of the Third Imperium is bound to be _excellent_; the best
the world has ever seen, for some value of best (note RL, where
Hollywood--despite its flaws--does better than anyone else).  It'll be
very difficult for a tramp ship's crew to compete...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
To add to the confusion, there are many even less specific `-illions'
out there, like `a bazillion,' which, I've been told, can be as high
as 100,000,000 if you're counting jellybeans, and as low as 32 if
you're counting, say, gunshot wounds.            --Howard Taylor

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 21:00:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Aug 12 20:00:04 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <02081114275201.00604@linux>
Message-ID: <20812.154001.2B4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>          Can humans  guarantee a self sufficient base on mars anytime
> soon?  On the moon?.  What is the lowest tech level where this could
> be possible?

As I've pointed out before, TL 3 *easily* suffices for maintaining a
colony on a world in the life zone with a vacuum atmosphere. TL2 might.

Thin/very thin aren't a lot harder. It's just that you have to worry
about weather effects.

*Establishing* a colony would be a different matter. As would trying to
keep a xcolony going in the face of TLs that are dropping.

On the other hand, a lot of what would be needed is stuff that's mostly
a good idea for a long term colony anyway, such as combining air regen,
sewage disposal and food production into an integrated system based on
systems being used *now* for sewage treatment. The only problem with
such systems is that they do require a fair bit of space.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 21:02:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Aug 12 20:02:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
In-Reply-To: <F127V8MoyGnyxrDyfbX00007185@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20812.152540.9v8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>      "I suggest constant suggestions that the young hellion requires an
> immediate bath."
>
>
> Mr. Berry,
>
>      Thank you for the additional ammunition sir!  My threats of "I'll sell 
> you for medical experiments" and "I'll mail you to the undertaker" have lost 
> their luster.

If he's young enougfh, the threat to introduce him to some gurrrrls
ought to be effective as well. The power of "girl cooties" as a threat
is quite impressive.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 21:04:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Aug 12 20:04:45 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811221941.0296bbc8@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20812.154727.3P4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Let's dig out my copy of the Traveller Book...TL 5
> c. 1900-1939   Early computers...visions of TL 9 and A percomps being used 
> to run life support systems...

Who say you *need* computers to run life support? It's easily doable
with *much* older tech than that. 

Life support on ships is apt to be the LiOH and activated charcoal
"scrubbers" that the Shuttle uses. 

In the colonies, it'll be hydroponics or even gardens/farms.

> Keeping old surplus small craft running using local parts...Vac suits that 
> look like diving suits...

Vacuum suits aren't that difficulty a problem in some ways. The hard
parts are things like equal volume joints. Which can be handled by
"bellows" type arrangements, or by rotation joints as are found on deep
diving "hardsuits". 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 21:07:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Aug 12 20:07:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
In-Reply-To: <3d55f441.2663671@post.demon.co.uk>
References: <F24qs1wP7vvqgqGTwgT0000593c@hotmail.com>
 <3D556531.21647.F79DE@localhost> <3d55f441.2663671@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <p04330100b97df3823b41@[143.232.119.186]>

At 11:18 AM +0000 8/10/02, Stephen Tempest wrote:
>Well, naturally they didn't have much trouble "persuading" the local
>inhabitants... they *are* dirty mindraping brainwashing Joe scum,
>after all...

My groups was joking that the official Imperial designation of the 
Zhodani seemed to the "_perfidious_ Zhodani".  That was right before 
we ran there Traveller adventure where there is a display on "Zhodani 
perfidity".   :-)
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 21:09:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Mon Aug 12 20:09:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020812141413.009e30c0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020812235640.1163.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>

 Okay, I just thought Phoenix command was free
,because I didn't see a place to order it. I see now
that the page is not a catalog;rather a fansite.
I'll probably try bits first. When I find a way to
purchase the Phoenix rules,I'll give them a look.
Strange, the CT rules say that folding stocks give you
nothing but -1 from medium to very long. and no
adjustment for close and short. After all my talk. Oh well.

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 21:11:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Aug 12 20:11:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Lanth subsector navies IMTU
In-Reply-To: <3D580C0E.7F070297@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3D58F224.15940.552818@localhost>

On 12 Aug 2002 at 14:27, Roseberry wrote:

> Lanth subsector naval forces, done with budgets from Meduim Navies.
> All is IMTU; YMMV.
> 
> Notes:
> Imperial Navy ships mostly drawn from Supplement 9.
> Imperial Scout Service ships drawn from Supplements 7 and 9, along
> with HGS for the Type S Scout ships.
> Colonial and Planetary ships exclusively using HGS.
> 
> I have about 10-12 pages of just usp=92s for the ships listed below, so =
if
> your interested in any particular one drop me a note and I=92ll send it
> out to you. I tried to use the Imperial Data Package model for the
> colonial ships. This is apparent in the use of the F-5 I Tiger units.
> The F-5, in each of its formats, is 15dt and carries a tripple missile
> turret. The Type S scouts are done in the same fashion, with the TL11
> Scout being the one most familiar 2g, j2, etc, the TL10 and 9 Scouts are
> 2g, j1. Alot of fighters are used simply because there cheap. The Lanth
> subsector doesn't have a HI POP world, so cheap firepower is the order
> of the day.

One question - Why do the system navies have so many ships and seem to 
lack monitors, SDBs and other non-jump capable vessels?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 21:13:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Aug 12 20:13:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020812141413.009e30c0@mindspring.com>
References: <200208121926.MQC00016@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D58F42A.16252.5D0EB1@localhost>

On 12 Aug 2002 at 14:32, Douglas Berry wrote:

> To this end I studied what the USMC calls CQB... Close Quarters
> Battle.  What I found surprised me.  Very few troops in CQB actually
> aim their weapons.  At point-blank range they don't have the time,
> and consider it better to blow a few rounds in the general direction
> of an enemy.  (Note: this does not apply to such specialists as SEAL
> Team 6 and the SAS, but these guys have APPs in the mid-twenties,
> and can afford to spend some on aiming actions.)  Combatants creep
> along hallways, using every piece of cover.  Actual combat when it
> comes is intense and quick.  During the Battle of Hue in 1968, the
> average firefight with the VC came at less than 10 meters, and
> lasted less than 30 seconds before one side was either killed or
> withdrew.  Reading police reports of actions against drug labs and
> crack houses revealed similar action statements. 

To this end the NZ Army's 1st Battalion (the full-time grunts) has 
designed a 'sling' for the Steyr AUG that makes it very easy to hold 
'at the ready' against the shoulder (it works mainly because the AUG is 
very butt-heavy) for long periods so that it takes no time to bring the 
weapon up. This cuts the time taken to responed to the sudden appearnce 
of the enemy substantially, and because you don't have to make a sudden 
move (bring the weapon up) there is less chance that they'll realise 
you've seen them and open up.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 21:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Aug 12 20:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <200208122159.MQH03009@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020812162729.009e2030@mindspring.com>

At 05:59 PM 8/12/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry says
> >ACQ was designed with the idea that it isn't weapons that
> >decide  firefights, it's the people using those weapons.
>
>That's the main reason I use Phoenix Command - You can not
>only misuse your action, though.  There is something called
>initiative time, which is the time required to think about
>the next set of actions.

Which is covered in ACQ by having Int be one of the determining factors in 
you Action Point Pool

>As an example: Doug has an Intelligence Skill Factor of 21.
>This means his Initiative Time is 8, and Action Number is 5
>(don't confuse Action Number with Action Count, which is the
>number of actions that one can take in 2 seconds).

ACQ:  I have a Dex of about 5 these days (epilepsy and medication means 
that I am less than cooridinated) and an Int of 12.  Add in Tactics-2, and 
my APP is (12+5)/2=8.5, round to 9, add 2 for tactics skill, 11.

>Doug has just entered a building and is hiding around the
>corner of a corridor.  Somewhere down the corridor is a room
>from which an opponent is firing.  Doug decides to peek
>around the corner and duck back.  This decision takes 8 AC.
>So, 8 AC later he looks around the corner (1 AC) and ducks
>back (1 AC).

The Referee rules that a quick peak costs 2AP.  I'm down to 9.

>Donovan saw an empty corridor with two doors.  The first door
>seems to be the one from which he hears gunfire.  He decides
>to set down his rifle, arm a grenade, draw his pistol, run
>down the corridor, and toss the grenade through the open
>door.  a total of 5 separate actions.  This course of action
>takes 8 AC to devise, so after 8 AC, he proceeds with his
>plan.

Set down the weapon, 1AP, ready the grenade 2AP.  You didn't say how far 
down the corridor the door was, but I'll assume 3 meters.  3AP to move down 
the corridor.  Down to 3AP

>Under circumstances where it is not safe to spend the time
>thinking about what to do next, you have to run to the
>nearest safe place (or hide where you are and think some
>more).  It's still possible to react defensively as well, but
>any action that implies personal initiative (such as
>attacking the enemy) requires thought.

Since I don't really want to be in the middle of the corridor whith that 
few AP, I sit at the intersection with my rifle ready.  If someone comes 
out of the door, I do an action/reaction task with him.  Winner moves 
first.  For example, he wins, sees me aiming at him, and dives back through 
the door.  Or I win and take my shot.

>The leadership skill has an effect on the initiative time of
>members in the group, as well as an effect on morale.
>
>Combat now takes place on a more realistic time line -
>assuming that at least one team attempts to take coordinated
>action.  There can be substantial periods of silence between
>shots and movement as each side attempts (at the very least
>on an individual basis) to coordinate movements.  Then there
>are bursts of intense action.  A unit with a higher average
>initiative time, and a good leader, will be able to keep up
>the pressure and remain on the offensive, regardless of
>weapon type.  The badly led unit of combat-inexperienced PCs
>will be unable to go on the offensive, and will be swept away.

In ACQ this is handled by setting high-APP characters to watch over the 
lower ones.  Having a large APP makes it easier to interrupt another's action.

>Overall, it's a lot of bookkeeping - a lot more than for
>ACQ.  But if you're striving for more detail...

The extreme level of detail in PC was one of the things that drove me to 
start work on ACQ.

>

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 21:17:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Mon Aug 12 20:17:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Fwd: Penguin Airlines??
In-Reply-To: <20020812152722.57956.qmail@web11004.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000201c24261$a126a300$6501a8c0@Darla>

Caution!  The link in the original message caused my McAfee Internet
Security program to alert that it was attempting to send personal
information from my machine back to the site.

Tom Barnes


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 22:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon Aug 12 21:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <3D58064C.4020008@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux>
 <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <02080817101100.00601@linux>
 <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3D53003A.1070102@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <20020809190742.B3949@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3D540E41.1040509@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <20020810113922.D5883@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3D58064C.4020008@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <m3lm7bplvq.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:
> 
> Quantitatively measuring trade in the 'OTU' is like trying to
> determine predictive measures of trade balances and deficits
> between, say China and the United States, by looking at cross Indian
> Ocean dhow cargo traffic alone.

ROTFLMAO...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Oatmeal is, of course, divine food of the gods or horsefood dressed up
for human consumption, depending on your disposition.  It's one of
those Marmite things.                                   --Sherilyn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 22:45:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon Aug 12 21:45:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Failed Worlds
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNOEAHEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNOEAHEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <m3y9bbpmgf.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Terry Carlino" <carlino@cox.net> writes:
> 
> Of course this brings up the fact that the system rules are also
> broken.  Under First In for example, worlds in a system other than
> the main world can have a sizable population.  As a matter of fact
> each world in the system can have a population almost as great as
> the main world.  As a matter of fact FI states that if two worlds in
> a system have the same population then the main world is the one in
> the star's life zone.

All that makes sense.  The CT method, in which there is (sorta) only
one world per system is not very believable, after all.  Of course,
neither are 2D jump maps, but we want a game a sane ref can track.

> There is a fix that would allow the number as published to be
> used. That is to count both the population and trade numbers as
> representative of the system instead of the main world.  Trade
> classification modifiers, which are related directly to the main
> world, should not be a problem, because the main world will
> generally be the best world in the system for habitation.  No other
> world in the system should be in a position to get better modifiers
> than the main world.

This is essentially what I had assumed.  Either that, or calculate
trade numbers per world, not per system.  That works well, too,
although it makes things a bit messy on the starport level (it being
kinda-canon that there's generally only one starport, and it's on the
main world, although there are exceptions).

> This has other aspects as well, which could be useful.  Balkanized
> **systems**, as opposed to worlds, would be possible, opening up
> tickets for those spacer merc units described in SM.

Again, something I'd assumed as a matter of course.  Perhaps I don't
read the rules closely enough:-)

> If the whole system is occupied (as is likely for a space faring
> civilization) then the Highport could be in the out skirts of the
> system, to better reduce jump masking and minimize the time ships
> spend enroute to the starport.

I'm not certain if that would be the best solution.  It might be that
each world has its own starport.  The problem with a remote highport
is increased transit time.  Anyone care to run the numbers?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
There's nothing in human experience compared to which a sendmail
config file could be considered simple.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 22:45:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon Aug 12 21:45:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure: Frontier Rescue
In-Reply-To: <20020812111141.33337.qmail@web21505.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020812111141.33337.qmail@web21505.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <m3hehzpluv.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

John Hamill <jwdh71@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> I will post the rest of the adventure as short fiction, if anyone is
> interested.

Yes, please...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
To believe in gun control, one has to believe that guns are not an
effective means of self-defence, which is why police carry them.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 22:46:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 12 21:46:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveler Minatures
Message-ID: <2d.218104f4.2a89cadf@aol.com>

>  AT one time RAFM manufactured a bunch of Traveler mins.
>Do they still make them?

Not that I know of -- I think the license expired. Check with Marc. If he has 
no objection, and RAFM still has the molds, you might be able to talk them 
into making a limited run provided you (or a consortium) can guarantee to 
sell a certain minimum number in one lump. This has been done several times 
by Space: 1889 fans over the last couple of years -- you just have to make it 
worth RAFM's while to melt and pour the metal.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 22:47:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug 12 21:47:01 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <3D58064C.4020008@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D53003A.1070102@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020809190742.B3949@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D540E41.1040509@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020810113922.D5883@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D58064C.4020008@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020813123534.B18707@freeman.little-possums.net>

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> The problem is that you're trying to view several discrete objects
> as points along a continuum, when in fact they're not.

Yes, that would be it.  I had thought that GT was only intended to
diverge just prior to Dulinor's attempt at regicide.


> their relationship to reality will be due only to sheer
> coincidence. GIGO.

Yes, I've been saying that the GT:FT trade volume rules are garbage
for some time.  People didn't listen last time...


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 22:47:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug 12 21:47:25 2002
Subject: Armor Schemes (was: Re: [TML] mines)
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1029171921.7515.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020810180812.B6285@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1029171921.7515.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020813124627.C18707@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> the outer layer will disintegrate the missile, vastly reducing penetration
> against the inner layers.

Only when the thickness of armour is also comparable to or greater
than the projectile's length.


>  The problem with spaced armor is that realistically it's _less_
> effective than normal armor against lasers, or against any sort of
> projectile that doesn't disintegrate on impact.

Umm, lasers *do* disintegrate on impact.  They're pretty much
equivalent to the limit as mass->0 of missile behaviour.

Unless you mean continuous beam lasers a la Babylon 5 rather than an
energy pulse.  A serial impactor stream would behave in much the same
way.


> OTOH, there's no real reason to have empty spaces in the armor; just
> about any non-critical components can plausibly be put between the
> hull layers.

It is far less clear that the plasma jet will disperse effectively if
you fill the space with random stuff.  It might be efficiently
channelled to the next layer.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 22:47:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug 12 21:47:56 2002
Subject: [TML] Great book
In-Reply-To: <200208121345.MPR01625@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208121345.MPR01625@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020813125227.D18707@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> I think it has more to do with the duration of the impulse as well.
> An artillery shell only has to put up with the 100,000g shock for a
> split second.

Oh, is that all you meant?  I thought you actually meant 10,000 gees
acceleration sustained for at least a second or so. 8-O

Yes, a GURPS Orion drive would deliver at least a few thousand gees in
the sense of peak acceleration of any component of the system.  It's
only the mean acceleration that is relatively low.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 22:49:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 21:49:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <200208130059.MQN01926@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020812225012.029b39a8@192.168.0.1>

At 08:59 PM 8/12/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> >Doug Grimes says
> >Jeff Goldblum? Just need to make sure he doesn't slouch over
>so much.
>No, it should be David Bowie.  He's a much better actor than
>a singer, and he's got a great presence.  He can be
>appropriately mysterious.

I don't know.  Harkaman is supposed to have this large, menacing physical 
presence.
Real "you don't want to fuck with me" presence.

The second paragraph in Chapter 3 starts with:
Otto Harkaman swore disgustedly and shoved the sergeant aside.
"Make way, here!"' he bellowed.--Let these guards pass." With that,
he almost hurled a gailv-dressed gentleman aside on either hand;
they both turned to glare angrily , then got hastily out of his way .

That's why I'd go with Howie Long or Dolph Lundgren for the role.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Vikings? There ain't no Vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was
burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway.
That's our story and we're sticking to it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 22:49:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug 12 21:49:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <OF6637FD53.2C67D73A-ONCA256C13.0023873E@dnsalias.com>
References: <OF6637FD53.2C67D73A-ONCA256C13.0023873E@dnsalias.com>
Message-ID: <20020813131253.E18707@freeman.little-possums.net>

Angus McDonald wrote:
> If it mirrors 'modern' economics then hi-tech worlds will import
> stuff that can be produced more cheaply elsewhere, whilst lo-tech
> worlds will try to become the sweatshop of choice for hi-tech worlds
> in order to get enough credits to become hi-tech themselves.

Yes, that's the idea.  The high-tech worlds can produce what they want
themselves; it's just cheaper to do it elsewhere.  If the low-tech
worlds want any high-tech goods, they *have* to trade for them.


> In terms of GWP, it might well be that imports/exports are a greater
> % for the lo-tech worlds

It would depend upon relative populations among other things.  


> e.g. GDP goes up every time a parent returns to the workforce, while
> they put their kids into daycare, but society is not necessarily
> better off

Society?  Maybe or maybe not.

It is virtually certain that the parent in question thinks they are
better off though.  The daycare centre is very likely better off (or
they aren't charging enough!), and so are the vendors who supply any
other extra goods the parent buys with the extra income.  The employer
is better off, too.

The child may or may not be better off.  Unlike the rest, the child
had little part in any of the decisions.

I agree, GWP isn't a measure of "quality of life".  It is a handy
figure for guesstimating relative economic importance of a system in
the big picture, though.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 22:49:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 21:49:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
In-Reply-To: <m33ctjr1ew.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020812082551.01a17e18@192.168.0.1>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020812082551.01a17e18@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020812230403.02060bb0@192.168.0.1>

At 07:29 PM 8/12/2002 -0600, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
>Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> writes:
> > Hmmm....this is an interesting hobby for a crew during Jump, film
> > making.  Shoot scenes against a blue screen, add the background in
> > the editing process.  Re-edit to match the culture of the planet
> > you're en-route to.
>Unless the destination is a real back-water (on the order of a
>research station staffed by a scientist, two assistants and the
>scientist's attractive daughter...), I don't think they'd make much
>selling the product.
>With a population so large as to be nearly incalculable, the artistic
>community of the Third Imperium is bound to be _excellent_; the best
>the world has ever seen, for some value of best (note RL, where
>Hollywood--despite its flaws--does better than anyone else).  It'll be
>very difficult for a tramp ship's crew to compete...

Bah!  The direct to video market does very well.
It's doing even better now, with digital editing technology driving down 
the post production costs.
Partially by keeping the cost down, and also by knowing where to market.
Even on TL F high population worlds, there will the equivalent of WalMart.

These people aren't trying to compete with major sector studios.
They are having fun and making a few credits on the side.

In the nearby city of Worcester, a fair sized New England city, with at 
least a half dozen college campuses in the city, which do you thinks draws 
more people:

Wrestling at the Centrum or the Worcester Art Museum?
For every one of the cultured, well educated folks in the Imperium, who 
truly appreciate the fine art of film making, there are a few hundred who 
think the Ramen & Whipsnade Road To films are the highest expression of 
film art produced by modern sophants.
There there are the folks who make them look highbrow...



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
I'm what love is all about. I've got American Teeth
and a Spanish Mouth -- Fernando (Billy Crystal)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 22:50:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 21:50:05 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in
 traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <20812.154727.3P4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811221941.0296bbc8@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020812231518.02567c80@192.168.0.1>

At 03:47 PM 8/12/2002 -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
> > Let's dig out my copy of the Traveller Book...TL 5
> > c. 1900-1939   Early computers...visions of TL 9 and A percomps being used
> > to run life support systems...
>Who say you *need* computers to run life support? It's easily doable
>with *much* older tech than that.

Not me.  But these are the sort of things they can easily pick up in trade.
Surplus handcomps for local art work.  If they can get them, they will use 
them.
Even if it's just to run the numbers instead of doing 'em by hand or having 
a room full of people with mechanical calculators.

>Life support on ships is apt to be the LiOH and activated charcoal
>"scrubbers" that the Shuttle uses.
>In the colonies, it'll be hydroponics or even gardens/farms.

Yup.

> > Keeping old surplus small craft running using local parts...Vac suits that
> > look like diving suits...
>Vacuum suits aren't that difficulty a problem in some ways. The hard
>parts are things like equal volume joints. Which can be handled by
>"bellows" type arrangements, or by rotation joints as are found on deep
>diving "hardsuits".

Hmmm...I think we're saying the same thing here, you are just supplying 
more detail.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Blend 'B', meanwhile, is a PROUD blend, defiant yet petulant...a blend
that grabs you, shakes you by the collar and cries, 'ACCEPT me, damn you,
or turn me away-BUT FOR GOD'S SAKE DON'T POLLUTE ME WITH NON-DAIRY
CREAMER!'" - Tripp Biscuit while coffee tasting.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 22:50:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug 12 21:50:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <m3bs87r262.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <OFED183D4C.6BA32B37-ONCA256C13.000A8F10@dnsalias.com> <m3bs87r262.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020813132633.F18707@freeman.little-possums.net>

Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> So far, the official numbers seem to indicate that there's not an
> awful lot of trade in relative terms.  This is not awfully surprising:
> it's expensive to put stuff up into orbit and expensive to ship it.

Actually, I find it *very* surprising.  It's really dirt-cheap to put
stuff up into orbit in Traveller, and cheaper than modern-day
airfreight to ship it to another star system a few parsecs away.

It works out to about the equivalent of US$1.20/kg to ship something
three parsecs DFD (US$0.55/lb); even cheaper on a regular freighter.
That's far from exorbitant.

I agree with the rest of your points in your post, though :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 22:52:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon Aug 12 21:52:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
In-Reply-To: <20812.152540.9v8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20812.152540.9v8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <m31y93o253.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
> 
> If he's young enougfh, the threat to introduce him to some gurrrrls
> ought to be effective as well.  The power of `girl cooties' as a
> threat is quite impressive.

And then, later on, it acquires a newfound power, albeit one in rather
the opposite direction...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
You know what the difference was in the Civil War between a rich
Yankee and a rich Southerner?  The rich Yankee paid someone to take
his place in the army, and the rich Southerner outfitted his own
regiment.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 22:52:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 21:52:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Strip Mime test
Message-ID: <20020813040342.03BE2451A@mo120usjc.palm.net>

--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
text/plain 
--- StripMime Errors ---
A message with no plaintext section was received.
The entire body of the message was removed.  Please
resend the email using plaintext formatting
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 22:53:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 21:53:06 2002
Subject: [TML] ping...
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020813002537.00cdca10@mail.charter.net>

12:25 AM Eastern Time

Waiting for a pong...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 23:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Mon Aug 12 22:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Economics (was: warship optimization)
In-Reply-To: <20020813044724.1608.72814.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentra
 l.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020813223521.00b68c50@mailhost.efn.org>

On Tue, 13 Aug 2002 12:35:34 +1000, Timothy Little 
<tim@freeman.little-possums.net> wrote:

>Yes, I've been saying that the GT:FT trade volume rules are garbage
>for some time.  People didn't listen last time...

Perhaps, but they are better than the previous iterations, some of which 
were little better than fiat.  The sad fact is that Traveller, for all of 
being a game about "merchants and mercenaries", has NEVER had working trade 
rules.

Discuss.  :)


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 00:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Mon Aug 12 23:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Test Ignore
In-Reply-To: <200208130059.MQN01926@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020813011220.00aae290@minn.net>

I think my mail server is being wierd.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 00:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Mon Aug 12 23:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lanth subsector navies IMTU
References: <3D580C0E.7F070297@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3D58A3B0.2070809@yarranet.net.au>

Roseberry wrote:

> Lanth subsector naval forces, done with budgets from Meduim Navies.
> All is IMTU; YMMV.


Hey Dan do you think you could do Aramis as of 1106?

Pretty please?

Phill
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/traveller/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 00:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 23:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] P B E Traveller campaign
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEHNIMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

If there is any interest, I'm thinking about 
running a non FTF :( game.

Ideally, if there was a irc chat channel savable 
I'd like to play there say weekly, if not it would 
be play by email.

Players 4-6, don't send me characters right off, but if
you want to think about it, skill outside a firefight
is very useful (Armed -- with a PGMP15 -- to the 'fresher 
is unneeded).

Situation:  player would be a special investigation 
team run out of the Duke of the Old Expanse's household.
 
________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 00:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug 12 23:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <m37kivr1kd.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <OF6637FD53.2C67D73A-ONCA256C13.0023873E@dnsalias.com> <m37kivr1kd.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020813163535.A19279@freeman.little-possums.net>

Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> For many goods, it just doesn't make sense to import them if local
> production can accomodate 'em.

However, the exceptions make up a very large fraction of a typical
economy.  Comparative advantage is especially powerful when the
various entities are economically very different from each other.  It
seems to me that the various worlds in Traveller are very different
indeed, in just about every respect that can be imagined!

That would normally indicate a massive economic advantage to trade
unless the cost of doing so was extraordinarily high.  And we know
that it isn't.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 00:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Mon Aug 12 23:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style
References: <F121PeKljq65Rn8P5o70000d29f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D58A9A5.2030706@yarranet.net.au>

Ken Murphy wrote:

>   Does anyone know what I'm talking about and have access to this 
> article, and if so, could I get a copy?


I think I have the issue at home.

A quick check at:
http://www.downport.com/traveller/ct/list.shtml
shows
* Issue 95: Antimissiles and Roundshot

Phill
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/traveller/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 00:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 23:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020812225012.029b39a8@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEHPIMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

At 08:59 PM 8/12/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> >Doug Grimes says
> >Jeff Goldblum? Just need to make sure he doesn't slouch over
>so much.
>No, it should be David Bowie.  He's a much better actor than
>a singer, and he's got a great presence.  He can be
>appropriately mysterious.

I don't know.  Harkaman is supposed to have this large, menacing physical 
presence.
Real "you don't want to fuck with me" presence.

The second paragraph in Chapter 3 starts with:
Otto Harkaman swore disgustedly and shoved the sergeant aside.
"Make way, here!"' he bellowed.--Let these guards pass." With that,
he almost hurled a gailv-dressed gentleman aside on either hand;
they both turned to glare angrily , then got hastily out of his way .

That's why I'd go with Howie Long or Dolph Lundgren for the role.





>>>>>>>>>

At the same time he is an intellectual, comfortable in loooonnnggggggggg
dissertations on history at the drop of a space helmet.  In his day,
Rutger Hauer might been a good Harkaman.  

I don't have the book at hand but Long would be good as Grav -- the head 
of the Space Viking bunch on plant when the Nemesis spaces in.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 01:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Tue Aug 13 00:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEHPIMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <000001c2429b$0826cd80$6401a8c0@GOCA>


-----Original Message-----


At the same time he is an intellectual, comfortable in loooonnnggggggggg
dissertations on history at the drop of a space helmet.  In his day,
Rutger Hauer might been a good Harkaman.  

I don't have the book at hand but Long would be good as Grav -- the head

of the Space Viking bunch on plant when the Nemesis spaces in.




Garvan Spasso?  Of the Space Scourge?
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 02:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Tue Aug 13 01:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <000001c2429b$0826cd80$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEICIMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>


At the same time he is an intellectual, comfortable in loooonnnggggggggg
dissertations on history at the drop of a space helmet.  In his day,
Rutger Hauer might been a good Harkaman.  

I don't have the book at hand but Long would be good as Grav -- the head

of the Space Viking bunch on plant when the Nemesis spaces in.




Garvan Spasso?  Of the Space Scourge?

>>>>>>>>

Could well be.  I'm relying on memory here.  

I seem to recall a ladies hand dangling something, but don't 
quote me.

One of the better scenes in the whole book is a Space Viking 
questioning someone.

"See this, it's a verifier, it turns blue if you lie.  If you lie, 
I will make sure you don't lie again."  he lifts the butt of his gun.

jml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 03:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Tue Aug 13 02:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Efate
References: <26B39E1664DDD311A1010008C7DB51FDEA9CE3@TIKITNT4>
Message-ID: <000d01c242aa$6c7cffc0$2d00a8c0@imogen>

Sebastian Rogers wrote:
> Just working on Efate from the point of view of a Striker campaign,
> and also the jump off point for the next Traveller Adventure, and
> wondered how the land grab is going?
>  
> Basically I was hoping to use anything you'd done so far.

I think it'll only take a few more  weeks  to  finish  the  Efate
landgrab.  I have the basic text plus  a  merc  adventure  pretty
much complete, I'm just finishing off the TOE of the Efate  Army.
This will include many of the frontline  vehicles  in  MT  format
(thanks to Anthony Farrell).

When do you need this by?  (I could post some of it incomplete if
need be.)

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 03:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 13 02:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure: Frontier Rescue
Message-ID: <55863a55a535.55a53555863a@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Eris Reddoch <erisred@telocity.com>
Date: Monday, August 12, 2002 10:19 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Adventure: Frontier Rescue

<<snip>>
> 
> That would be my preferance too. I have a bunch of my players on the
> TML, but with a bit of "modifying"...<g>...dropping them among the
> "duffs" might be an interesting scenerio.

I wonder if duffs are used as riding animals....

"Get off your duffs and get in this ATV, _NOW_!!" ;-)




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 03:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Tue Aug 13 02:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] ping...
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020813002537.00cdca10@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <3D58D536.9060002@gmx.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:

> 12:25 AM Eastern Time
>
> Waiting for a pong...
>
Shouldn't be hard to find an atari 2600 emulater and cartridge image out 
in the web...I'd do it but my level of  google-fu is not to be used for 
the frivilous...the purely silly yes, but not the frivilous...

ObTrav...erm TL:6/7 computer games...barbarian invaders....


-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 04:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Aug 13 03:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1028928845.7419.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20813.001316.9T4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I doubt that; I suspect most weapons lasers are IR because chemical
> lasers have a tendency to be IR lasers.  For focusing reasons you
> probably want a blue-green laser, since it will require a lens about
> half the diameter (1/4 the area) of a near IR laser.

Chemical lasers tend to be unsuited for personal weapons.

The tanks are huge, and the chemicals both highly reacxtive and highly
toxic.


> In any case, a weapons laser designed for shooting at people will be
> visible if there's any dust in the atmosphere; the laser will
> vaporize the dust (which will release some light) and many forms of
> dust will then burn (producing more light).  Probably quite hard to
> see during the day, but visible enough at night.

You also get ionization breakdown of the air at power densities
(megawatts per cm^2) that aren't all that high for a weapons grade
laser. 

It was quite visible in a photo taken at a laser lab under normal
lighting.

> An X-ray laser, of course, would work differently.  X-rays don't go
> very far in atmosphere, but using the standard 0.1A X-ray lasers in
> FF&S, you can simply create a very small lens and fire a pulsed beam,
> tunneling through the atmosphere.  This isn't terribly efficient (at
> an estimate, it takes somewhere between 100 and 1000 meters
> atmosphere to provide as much armor as a centimeter of steel), but
> it's rather unaffected by most forms of obscurement, and would be
> extremely visible to observers.

Yeah, *very* visible.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 04:20:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Aug 13 03:20:16 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <200208101154.MLV00593@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20813.014630.7K7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson says
>>So? The effect (left or right) still *has* a cause (the 
> observation). 
>>
>>So *global* causality is upheld. Local isn't.
>>
>
> The problem is that the photon changed course billions of 
> years ago, before the Earth existed, before people existed, 
> before the detector existed.  But the act of observing forces 
> a change - a change that takes place before the observation.

It's *still* cause and effect. 

> It's as though an observation in the present writes the past, 

Not really. Because for it to be dicided by the observation it can't
have affected anything *else* that's been observed before. 

> which is what Wheeler talks about.  Results preceding the 
> initiating action.  Wheeler says in one of his books that the 
> act of observing writes and decides the past - it's not 
> really observing, since by changing the methods of 
> observation, we can get a different result.

But there *are* no effects until you make the observation.

They've done experiments that show the state really *isn't* decided
until you observe.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 04:20:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Aug 13 03:20:29 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <3D55B66B.29635.222212@localhost>
Message-ID: <20813.014946.3X5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On 9 Aug 2002, at 20:12, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> > the problem is that the nature of the observation will force 
>> > a photon to the left or the right - an observation that is 
>> > taken perhaps a billion years after the photon departed. 
>
>> So? The effect (left or right) still *has* a cause (the observation). 
>
> No, the effect that caused the proton to turn left or right was gravity and 
> did 
> occur billions of years ago. 

No. The effect is the observation. That has been cofirmed by
experiments that decided *which* observation to make *after* the photon
had passed the "fork".

If it was a case of the photon having taken one pathy or the other, and
us not being able to know until we made the observation (the "hidden
variables" interpretation), the results of the runs would have come out
one way.

If the result was not *determined* until we made the observation, the
results would have come out another way.

The results showed that "hidden variables" was *not* correct. The state
of the system really *is* indeterminate until the observation is made.

So the path taken is chosen "by" the observation, not by anything else.

> The observation is the effect that turns one of 
> the two possibilities into reality. Up until the observation, both of the 
> possibilities "exist" as probabilities, but the act of observation forces 
> the universe to pick one.

Not exactly. They both exist as a *mixed state*. The observation
collapses the wave function.

>> So *global* causality is upheld. Local isn't.
>
> Both local and global causality are upheld.

Though in this case "local" has a rather different meaning. <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 04:20:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Aug 13 03:20:40 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <200208100133.MLB00132@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20813.021243.4q3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> This is a bit misleading.  A modern APFSDS penetrator weighs 
> around 15 kg, and has a kinetic energy of around 9 MJ.  It is 
> designed to unleash its energy inside the target - i.e., it 
> has to hold together long enough to penetrate the hull.  
> Because the penetrator holds together long enough to spear 
> through the hull, it can actually do damage.
>
> These ball bearings sound like micrometeoroids.  Put up a 
> Whipple bumper (a thin layer of aluminum, spaced several 
> inches away from the main hull), and they'll be vaporized on 
> contact with the outer layer, and the energy will be 
> harmlessly dissipated, even if it is 1000 MJ.

Yes, but the required *spacing* for such a bumper depends on the
velocity of the impactor.

At the velocities in question, the plasma jet from the impact will
still be *very* well collimated at several meters. Maybe quite a bit
more. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 04:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Tue Aug 13 03:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] High Tech Movie Making
Message-ID: <memo.822667@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <196.b637a0e.2a89b083@aol.com>
> Flipping through a recent FINE SCALE MODELER, I discovered an article 
> on ILMs chief model maker for Attack of the Clones . . . I was a little 
> surprised to discover how much actual, physical model making still 
> takes place in movies, primarily for complicated sets. Basically, the 
> build an arena, cityscape, or whatever, and digitize the actors onto 
> it. 
> 
> Evidently is is still vastly easier to get good looking shots this way 
> than creating them 100% on the computer, at least for some types of 
> shots. Perhaps Jesse knows more about this than I do, it being his 
> business and all.

Well, although computer art has come a long way, there is still a certain 
'reality' from a physical structure that makes it preferable when you can 
use one as a basis, even if you then mess with it digitally.

The hardest things to do other than 'real' are probably water and fire. 
The drawback with both of these is that they don't work particularly well 
with small models either. Fire's not too bad if the models are big enough 
- like the firestorms in 'Independence Day' - but water refuses to scale 
down. So you need to film full-scale and digitise in whatever else you 
want there or it looks wrong. Or end up with something that just doesn't 
ring true... 

Mexal.
(who's done some SFX work, only the 'real world' sort - explosions & 
such!)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 04:33:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Tue Aug 13 03:33:17 2002
Subject: [TML] P B E Traveller campaign
Message-ID: <memo.822670@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEHNIMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
> If there is any interest, I'm thinking about 
> running a non FTF :( game.
> 
> Ideally, if there was a irc chat channel savable 
> I'd like to play there say weekly, if not it would 
> be play by email.
> 
> Players 4-6, don't send me characters right off, but if
> you want to think about it, skill outside a firefight
> is very useful (Armed -- with a PGMP15 -- to the 'fresher 
> is unneeded).
> 
> Situation:  player would be a special investigation 
> team run out of the Duke of the Old Expanse's household.

Remember this list is spread all over the world, so IRC is not viable 
unless your players & yourself have fairly synchronised schedules AND are 
able to devote considerable chunks of time to the game alone.

If it's played by e-mail, I'd be interested, though. (I don't *like* 
role-playing on IRC even if timezones are compatible.)

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 05:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Aug 13 04:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
Message-ID: <200208131103.MRH01418@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry says
<snip about ACQ>

As it stands, if you're playing Traveller, ACQ is a 
substantial improvement over any of the other combat systems.

Will Doug be doing an addendum for T20?
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 05:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Aug 13 04:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
Message-ID: <200208131105.MRH01549@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mark Urbin says
>I don't know.  Harkaman is supposed to have this large, 
>menacing physical presence.
>Real "you don't want to fuck with me" presence.

Gene Hackman has been alternately polite and menacing.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 05:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Aug 13 04:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F163A@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <20813.033140.3j7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Actually, given *some* of us in this group, an "I <heart> HE" shirt
>> like Ditzie's might do well, and could be sold to the mainstream.
>> 
>> Which reminds me:
>> 
>> http://jokeworm.com/AToons/AT280.jpg

It just occured to me to wonder. Are Vargr noses sufficiently sensitive
to do drug and explosives sniffing on their own?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 05:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Tue Aug 13 04:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <200208131103.MRH01418@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020813115403.61727.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>

> As it stands, if you're playing Traveller, ACQ is a 
> substantial improvement over any of the other combat
> systems.
> 
> Will Doug be doing an addendum for T20?

By the way, you mentioned navy seals having an app.
WHat's that? Or was it Doug who said that. I delete my
messages pretty often, so I cant'go back and look.
THanks


=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 06:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Tue Aug 13 05:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: P B E Traveller campaign
In-Reply-To: <20020813102039.6946.57745.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020813102039.6946.57745.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5vshluoc3c4o9ha54fg5jb4pir0uil87e1@4ax.com>

On Tue, 13 Aug 2002 03:20:39 -0700, John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
wrote:

>If there is any interest, I'm thinking about 
>running a non FTF :( game.

>Ideally, if there was a irc chat channel savable 
>I'd like to play there say weekly, if not it would 
>be play by email.

Well, you can use #traveller on undernet at least as a meeting place, and
then go create a fresh private channel to actually play in...

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 06:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Aug 13 05:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure: Frontier Rescue
References: <20020813102039.6946.57745.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000601c242c4$b507b680$75b18b90@computer>

> From: john.groth@us.army.mil
> I wonder if duffs are used as riding animals....
> 
> "Get off your duffs and get in this ATV, _NOW_!!" ;-)

Unless they were cavalry. Then it would be:

"Get _on_ your duffs, NOW!!"

or even:

"Sit on your duffs, NOW!!"

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 06:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Aug 13 05:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEHPIMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020812225012.029b39a8@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020813084301.01be6008@192.168.0.1>

At 10:52 PM 8/12/2002 -0700, John-Martin wrote:
[snip]
 >>Mark Urbin wrote:
> >The second paragraph in Chapter 3 starts with:
> >Otto Harkaman swore disgustedly and shoved the sergeant aside.
> >"Make way, here!"' he bellowed.--Let these guards pass." With that,
> >he almost hurled a gailv-dressed gentleman aside on either hand;
> >they both turned to glare angrily , then got hastily out of his way .
> >That's why I'd go with Howie Long or Dolph Lundgren for the role.


>At the same time he is an intellectual, comfortable in loooonnnggggggggg
>dissertations on history at the drop of a space helmet.  In his day,
>Rutger Hauer might been a good Harkaman.

Ya, in his day...
Let's see if Lundgren has the chops to be "comfortable in loooonnnggggggggg 
dissertations on history at the drop of a space helmet"

According to http://us.imdb.com/Bio?Lundgren,+Dolph
Dolph Lundgren attended the Royal Institute of Technology in Stockholm, 
Sweden.
He received a master's degree in chemical engineering from the University 
of Sydney,
New South Wales, Australia in 1982, and the next year was awarded a 
Fulbright Scholarship to MIT.

As for being able to toss folk around...
Lundgren took up martial arts at 14 and has achieved his third degree black 
belt).
His accomplishments in the sport include being the captain of the Swedish 
full-contact karate team
and the winner of the European Heavyweight Full-Contact Karate Championship 
in 1980 and 1981,
as well as the Australian heavyweight division title in 1982.

Just because he plays a mono-syllabic action hero doesn't mean he is one.
I'm not a sports fan, so I can't speak on Howie Long's credentials.
He seems brighter than the average NFL player though.

>I don't have the book at hand but Long would be good as Grav -- the head
>of the Space Viking bunch on plant when the Nemesis spaces in.

That would be Captain Boake Valkanhayn of the Space Scourge.
A dark-faced man, with an old scar that ran down one cheek from a little 
below the eye;
he had curly black hair, on his head and on a V of chest exposed by an open 
shirt. T
here was an ashtray in front of him, and a thin curl of smoke rose from a 
cigar in it,
and coffee steaming in an ornate but battered silver cup beside it.

Perhaps Rutger Hauer for this role.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 06:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Aug 13 05:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <000001c2429b$0826cd80$6401a8c0@GOCA>
References: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEHPIMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020813085544.017c8008@192.168.0.1>

At 12:28 AM 8/13/2002 -0700, J-Man wrote:
>Garvan Spasso?  Of the Space Scourge?

Garvan Spasso was Captain of the Lamia.
You would want somebody weasel like to play him



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"The Clintonites, like pod people from a "Star Trek" adventure, have peeled
off the thin layer of centrist rhetoric that they wore for the presidential
campaign. We now learn that they are people genetically bred to inhabit the
public sector. Their oxygen source is the moisture of taxes, which are 
remitted
by the aliens in the private sector." -- Wall Street Journal February 19, 1993
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 07:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Aug 13 06:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <200208131105.MRH01549@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020813085757.01d0a7e0@192.168.0.1>

At 07:05 AM 8/13/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>Mark Urbin says
> >I don't know.  Harkaman is supposed to have this large,
> >menacing physical presence.
> >Real "you don't want to fuck with me" presence.
>
>Gene Hackman has been alternately polite and menacing.

Yes. He's also got a more massive physical presence.
I can see him tossing people around more easily than the whipcord thin 
"Thin White Duke".


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 07:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Aug 13 06:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Economics (was: warship optimization)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020813223521.00b68c50@mailhost.efn.org>
References: <20020813044724.1608.72814.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentra l.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020813085957.01cf1500@192.168.0.1>

At 10:38 PM 8/13/2002 -0700, Kelly St.Clair wrote:
>On Tue, 13 Aug 2002 12:35:34 +1000, Timothy Little 
><tim@freeman.little-possums.net> wrote:
>
>>Yes, I've been saying that the GT:FT trade volume rules are garbage
>>for some time.  People didn't listen last time...
>
>Perhaps, but they are better than the previous iterations, some of which 
>were little better than fiat.  The sad fact is that Traveller, for all of 
>being a game about "merchants and mercenaries", has NEVER had working 
>trade rules.
>
>Discuss.  :)

The trade rules where *always* geared toward small tramp freighters, not 
large corporate merchantmen.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 07:22:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 13 06:22:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
Message-ID: <103.19bfe10b.2a8a61c6@cs.com>

In a message dated 8/12/02 11:49:28 PM Central Daylight Time, 
eclipse@urbin.net writes:


> I don't know.  Harkaman is supposed to have this large, menacing physical 
> presence.
> Real "you don't want to fuck with me" presence.
> 
> The second paragraph in Chapter 3 starts with:
> Otto Harkaman swore disgustedly and shoved the sergeant aside.
> "Make way, here!"' he bellowed.--Let these guards pass." With that,
> he almost hurled a gailv-dressed gentleman aside on either hand;
> they both turned to glare angrily , then got hastily out of his way .
> 
> That's why I'd go with Howie Long or Dolph Lundgren for the role.
> 
> 

Okay, I forgot that bit. (It's been about ten years since my last 
read-through.)

Given that information then, I would suggest Clive Owen, a British actor that 
I'm increasingly appreciating the more I see of his work.

Doug Grimes


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 08:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Tue Aug 13 07:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22DB6@USCHM203>

>Douglas Berry wrote:

>To this end I studied what the USMC calls CQB... Close Quarters 
>Battle.  What I found surprised me.  Very few troops in CQB actually aim 
>their weapons.  At point-blank range they don't have the time, and consider

>it better to blow a few rounds in the general direction of an 
>enemy.

I remember getting an ass-chewing during a live automatic fire exercise. I
was taking my time and aiming my bursts at the targets, and was basically
told "You don't have time for that s***! Just point and shoot!"
Later, I asked my SSGT if it wouldn't be better if everyone just took a few
seconds to aim. He said that would be great, if no one was shooting back at
you.
For night fighting and close quarters, we were taught to basically point and
shoot almost the way you would with a submachine gun.
One thing that did impress me, in hindsight, was that the Marines were more
interested in teaching us actual combat firing than coming up with
impressive unit accuracy statistics based on a "clear day at the range".

Note: This did not apply to LAWs, SMAWs, and Dragons. God help the Marine
who missed a target with a LAW. I never saw anyone miss with a Dragon, and
imagine that, since they cost 10 times more than a LAW, the punishment would
be 10 times worse.

Upon missing the target(a gutted M113 APC) with a LAW, the private was told
that he was now dead, as the crew of the vehicle he had just missed had
chewed him apart with 12.7.
The other three members of our fireteam were ordered to wrap the dead man in
ponchos. Now this was the middle of summer, and it's hot enough without 3
extra layers of nylon.
My Sgt handed me a fairly thick branch, and said, "Sometimes the recently
deceased will twitch and moan. This is not unusual. It is just nerve
impulses and gas escaping from the body. Now, if this happens, you are to
give the dead body a good whack with his branch, which should keep such
noise and movement to a minimum."

Now, I don't enjoy whacking friends with sticks, but I knew that if I looked
like I was whacking with anything less than 100% enthusiasm, it would be ME
wrapped up in ponchos getting hit with branches...as it was, they only kept
him like that for about a half hour.
 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 08:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Brian Caball)
Date: Tue Aug 13 07:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Beanstalks in 15 years!
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22DB6@USCHM203>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22DB6@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <02081315333101.02574@avlendris>

Here's a link to a story linked from Slashdot, about a seattle company who 
propose to build a beanstalk in 15 years, at a cost of $10 billion.

http://www.nationalpost.com/search/site/story.asp?id=B5C92B3D-A714-4F67-B36A-89F43CB4E588 

People seem to be taking them very seriously indeed! They say they'll only be 
able to shift ~5 tonnes of cargo at a time, however.... 

How easy would it be to build a whole bunch of beanstalks and not just one?

-Brian   

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 08:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Tue Aug 13 07:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22DB7@USCHM203>

."John T. Kwon" wrote:

>Combat now takes place on a more realistic time line - 
>assuming that at least one team attempts to take coordinated 
>action.  There can be substantial periods of silence between 
>shots and movement as each side attempts (at the very least 
>on an individual basis) to coordinate movements.  Then there 
>are bursts of intense action.  A unit with a higher average 
>initiative time, and a good leader, will be able to keep up 
>the pressure and remain on the offensive, regardless of 
>weapon type.  The badly led unit of combat-inexperienced PCs 
>will be unable to go on the offensive, and will be swept away.

I like the sound of that, especially the pauses and periods of silence. This
is something just about any wargame has a problem with. All of the units act
instantly to do the right thing, and if you really look at the "real time"
duration of most AHL and Snapshop combats, they are far too short.
Azhanti High Lightning addressed this a bit with morale. I liked tha fact
that you had to check morale to expose a character to covering fire. This
had the effect of troops pausing for extended periods of time under cover. I
never took this kind of morale check as "panic", but simply as keeping one's
head down...perhaps a bit of fear, of course, but it actually worked fairly
well.
This is one of my biggest complaint with many PC shooters. The enemy charges
full out or is constantly firing. I'd love to just once see an AI enemy
scurry from cover to cover without firing.

I think players will also enjoy a game where combatants stop to catch their
breath, pause to scan terrain, take cover and try to figure out what to do
next, etcetera, rather than everyone instantly doing exactly what needs to
be done with robotic efficiency.

I will definitely take a look at Phoenix Command.

For the record, I got ACQ a few weeks ago and it is excellent.
I currently use a combination of Snapshot and AHL...basically AHL with
action points for characters being based on (Dexterity + Endurance) minus
one (so an average character has 6 AP).
I'm also adding elements from ACQ that help.
I don't reccommend it to anyone else---I just happen to hate alot of
book-keeping.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 08:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Aug 13 07:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
Message-ID: <200208131452.MRP02639@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Daniel Tackett asks
>By the way, you mentioned navy seals having an app.
>WHat's that? Or was it Doug who said that. I delete my
>messages pretty often, so I cant'go back and look.
>THanks

Probably Doug.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 08:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Preston)
Date: Tue Aug 13 07:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveler Minatures
References: <DAV508BiC6HbSzxdWGH000331fe@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D591E8C.4050006@magpiesnest.co.uk>

john fox wrote:

 > Hello Everyone: AT one time RAFM manufactured a bunch of Traveler
 > mins. Do they still make them? I looked at their web site and
 > could not find them. If not, where do I look to find some?
 >


I have some superb Trav miniatures, nicely boxed in standard 
Traveller-style boxes (LBB-style) but I don't think they are available 
any more. I had been planning to get some moulding poly and duplicate 
them, but if anyone finds they are still available, please let me know 
since I wouldn't want to break anyone's copyright on them.

-- 
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK
Email   : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk
Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 09:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Tue Aug 13 08:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <200208131452.MRP02639@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020813150118.14458.qmail@web11803.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:
> Daniel Tackett asks
> >By the way, you mentioned navy seals having an app.
> >WHat's that? Or was it Doug who said that. I delete
> my
> >messages pretty often, so I cant'go back and look.
> >THanks
> 
> Probably Doug.
Must mean action points.

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 09:02:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Tue Aug 13 08:02:17 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Traveler Minatures
Message-ID: <200208131437.g7DEbJk26400@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "john fox" <jwmkfox@msn.com>
>Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 11:27:13 -0700
>Subject: [TML] Traveler Minatures
...
>  AT one time RAFM manufactured a bunch of Traveler mins.
>Do they still make them?

  No; no current license, apparently.

>I looked at their web site and could not find them.
>If not, where do I look to find some?

  Try  www.sentrybox.com  - prices in $CDN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 09:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 13 08:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810095614.00a07cf0@mindspring.com>
References: <20020810004141.99222.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200208131521.g7DFLhk13610@sun.ebtech.net>

I think a better rule is to add the TL and Population Level to arrive 
at a VP value for all worlds.

This is a modification based on Doug's Ground Forces book's 
depiction of targets.  It makes mid tech high pop worth more that 
high tech low pop.

IE should Pixie be worth more than a planet with its own colonial 
navy?

> 
> We always played with the optional rules that capitals and high-pop worlds
> were both worth double VP.  Jewell and Rhylanor, 54 and 60VP respectively,
> were juicy targets.
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
> 
> "The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption
> abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every
> man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the
> end of the world is fast approaching."
> - Assyrian Tablet, c.2800 BC
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 09:19:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 13 08:19:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Settlement date of Vilis
In-Reply-To: <200208111816.MOD01276@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <200208131526.g7DFQxk15005@sun.ebtech.net>


> They're living in a representative democracy. I'm thinking 
> that they are not as obsessed with military spending on Vilis 
> as they were in the Sword Worlds.  

This would explain why in Fifth Forntier War the game they have 
the tech and pop for a large army and intersteller navy but in the 
game have counters for neither.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 10:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Angus McDonald)
Date: Tue Aug 13 09:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
Message-ID: <OF829A4EBC.66EDE39C-ONCA256C14.00119067@dnsalias.com>

>>>
And _please_ trim the tails of your posts:-)
<<<

Sorry about that, one of the disadvantages of using Lotus Notes as an 
email program is that it doesn't quote very nicely, the email you're 
replying to is hidden in one line of text (of course there is the 
advantage of hardly ever needing to worry about the latest Outlook email 
virus).
---  from  ---
Angus McDonald
www.falkayn.com

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 10:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Aug 13 09:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] High Tech Movie Making
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F1651@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Some things are still just easier to do physically.  There's a LOT of compositing of combinations of elements done these days.  In SFX laden films that's always been the case, but the emergence of more and more powerful software tools has only increased the level of complexity of the composites they're doing.  Along the physical vs. 3D lines, the folks that made the "Lost In Space" movie did something interesting for some of their shots.  Some of the shots involving the Jupiter II were too complex to do with traditional models and motion-control techniques.  So what they did was build the model in 3D as well, and then TEXTURED it using high quality photos of the practical model that they made.  This technique actually happens a lot these days, and was used before "LIS", but it was one of the more visually stunning examples.  Another good use of this combo was on "Independance Day".  All the 3D planes in the massed "air armada" were textured useing hi-rez photos of their real!
-life counterparts.

The easiest way to get photo-realism in 3D is to use real photos ;)

Jesse


> -----Original Message-----
> From: GDWGAMES@aol.com [mailto:GDWGAMES@aol.com]
> Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 5:45 PM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] High Tech Movie Making
> 
> 
> Flipping through a recent FINE SCALE MODELER, I discovered an 
> article on ILMs 
> chief model maker for Attack of the Clones . . . I was a 
> little surprised to 
> discover how much actual, physical model making still takes 
> place in movies, 
> primarily for complicated sets. Basically, the build an 
> arena, cityscape, or 
> whatever, and digitize the actors onto it. 
> 
> Evidently is is still vastly easier to get good looking shots 
> this way than 
> creating them 100% on the computer, at least for some types 
> of shots. Perhaps 
> Jesse knows more about this than I do, it being his business and all.
> 
> LKW
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 10:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Aug 13 09:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <200208131105.MRH01549@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B97E805A.69710%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/13/02 4:05 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> Mark Urbin says
>> I don't know.  Harkaman is supposed to have this large,
>> menacing physical presence.
>> Real "you don't want to fuck with me" presence.
>=20
> Gene Hackman has been alternately polite and menacing.

"Unforgiven".  Sheriff 'Little' Bill.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 10:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Aug 13 09:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22DB6@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020813085902.009e81c0@mindspring.com>

At 10:25 AM 8/13/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Upon missing the target(a gutted M113 APC) with a LAW, the private was told
>that he was now dead, as the crew of the vehicle he had just missed had
>chewed him apart with 12.7.
>The other three members of our fireteam were ordered to wrap the dead man in
>ponchos. Now this was the middle of summer, and it's hot enough without 3
>extra layers of nylon.
>My Sgt handed me a fairly thick branch, and said, "Sometimes the recently
>deceased will twitch and moan. This is not unusual. It is just nerve
>impulses and gas escaping from the body. Now, if this happens, you are to
>give the dead body a good whack with his branch, which should keep such
>noise and movement to a minimum."
>
>Now, I don't enjoy whacking friends with sticks, but I knew that if I looked
>like I was whacking with anything less than 100% enthusiasm, it would be ME
>wrapped up in ponchos getting hit with branches...as it was, they only kept
>him like that for about a half hour.

LOL!  When we screwed up and "died," we went to Hell.  In Hell, soldiers 
spent time in the front-leaning rest position (the starting position for 
the push-up, for you civilians) and got lectured on our failings as 
soldiers.  At Ft. Irwin, dead soldiers got sent to work the 
landfill.  Working a landfill in the middle of the Mojave desert in summer 
was as close to perdition as I want to get.

-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Some people have told me they don't think a fat penguin
really embodies the grace of Linux, which just tells me
they have never seen an angry penguin charging at them
in excess of 100 mph. They'd be a lot more careful about
what they say if they had. - Linus Torvalds




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 10:24:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Aug 13 09:24:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <200208131103.MRH01418@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020813085506.009e1840@mindspring.com>

At 07:03 AM 8/13/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry says
><snip about ACQ>
>
>As it stands, if you're playing Traveller, ACQ is a
>substantial improvement over any of the other combat systems.
>
>Will Doug be doing an addendum for T20?

At this point, probably not.  James and I didn't do ACQ for money, and I'm 
trying to concentrate on pay copy these days. The core mechanics are 
different enough to make it necessary to completely rebuild the system from 
the ground up.

-- 

Douglas E. Berry                gridlore@mindspring.com
     http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
       http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

I have no problem with secondary sexual characteristics.
It's just the ones that look glued on that bother me.
                         --Rose (http://i.am/rwp/)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 10:24:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Aug 13 09:24:40 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <20020813115403.61727.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <200208131103.MRH01418@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020813090255.009e7a80@mindspring.com>

At 04:54 AM 8/13/02 -0700, you wrote:

>By the way, you mentioned navy seals having an app.
>WHat's that? Or was it Doug who said that. I delete my
>messages pretty often, so I cant'go back and look.
>THanks

In At Close Quarters, each combatant has an Action Point Pool 
(APP).  Action Points (AP) are spent performing actions (duh) and can be 
added to certain skill rolls to insure success.  In essence, you are 
concentrating and taking a few extra seconds to get it right.  The most 
case is aiming, but it can apply to many other skills.  Possibly the most 
important use of the APP is in the Action/Reaction task.  When a combatant 
taking his turn comes into the line of sight of another combatant, the 
second combatant can attempt to interrupt the combatant taking his 
turn.  Both players make an Action/Reaction task roll, and the player who 
makes the roll by the largest amount goes first.  There is no limit to the 
number of AP you can dump into the task.

This is wonderful for doing things like classic high-noon showdowns.  The 
danger of course lies in burning all your AP on the reaction and your 
shot/move/whatever and then getting caught by the *next* guy to move.

The APP is figured as follows (Dex + Int)/2 + Tactics skill = APP.  Navy 
SEALS, with their selection process and training, would have very 
impressive APPs.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry   gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Cry "CHEEBLE!" and let slip the hamsters of war!



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 10:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Aug 13 09:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020813085544.017c8008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <B97E8157.69711%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/13/02 5:57 AM, Mark Urbin at eclipse@urbin.net wrote:

> At 12:28 AM 8/13/2002 -0700, J-Man wrote:
>> Garvan Spasso?  Of the Space Scourge?
>=20
> Garvan Spasso was Captain of the Lamia.
> You would want somebody weasel like to play him

Steve Buscemi?
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 10:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Aug 13 09:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <20813.021243.4q3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029256097.5137.ajackson@ping>

Leonard Erickson writes:

> Yes, but the required *spacing* for such a bumper depends on the
> velocity of the impactor.

Actually, no it doesn't, as long as impact velocity is sufficient to completely
vaporize both objects.  If a 1 gram bead hits one gram of armor, the resulting
spray of material will be around a 45 degree cone, regardless of the actual
speed of the impactor.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 10:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Aug 13 09:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020813123534.B18707@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029256363.5566.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:

> Yes, I've been saying that the GT:FT trade volume rules are garbage
> for some time.  People didn't listen last time...

You have?  I know you've talked about them, but I don't recall any specific
criticisms of them, or comments on what they ought to be.  As it happens, I
tend to agree, but there's a fundamental problem here: high trade means a lot
of transfer of ideas and people, and would tend to reduce the variation between
worlds in Traveller.  Based on the extreme variations which can occur, trade
must be fairly minor in the Imperium.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 10:37:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Aug 13 09:37:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Lanth subsector navies IMTU
Message-ID: <3D593484.ED98D834@mail.cswnet.com>

Rupert Boleyn asks:
>One question - Why do the system navies have so many ships and seem >to lack monitors, SDBs and other non-jump capable vessels?

Mainly because I wanted to follow the deployments used in the FFW game.
The only SDB's in Lanth sub. are in FFW are at Extolay, Equus, and
Treece. Treece is actually only supposed to have 5 SDBs, so the 20 odd
BB8 types actually makes Treece more powerfull than it is in the game.

The other problem which you don't mention, is where is the auxiliarys?
Treece should have had some auxiliarys, at least some tankers.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 10:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Aug 13 09:42:02 2002
Subject: Armor Schemes (was: Re: [TML] mines)
In-Reply-To: <20020813124627.C18707@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029256863.6966.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> Anthony Jackson wrote:
> > the outer layer will disintegrate the missile, vastly reducing
> > penetration against the inner layers.
> 
> Only when the thickness of armour is also comparable to or greater
> than the projectile's length.

Actually, no.  On initial impact, the armor layer, and the front surface of the
missile, are converted into plasma with a velocity somewhere between the
velocity of the missile and the velocity of the armor.  The rest of the missile
will then plow into this cloud of plasma, and be destroyed.  The only issues
are (a) what's the velocity of the plasma (if the mass of vaporized armor is
large relative to the missile, it will be going slower relative to the ship,
reducing penetration distance), and (b) what's the length of the missile (if
the space between layers is too short, the missile won't have been entirely
destroyed before it hits the next layer).

> It is far less clear that the plasma jet will disperse effectively if
> you fill the space with random stuff.  It might be efficiently
> channelled to the next layer.

Oh, it will disperse.  At the velocities we're talking about, the situation is
equivalent to a stream of gas hitting a cloud of gas.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 10:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Aug 13 09:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lanth subsector navies IMTU
Message-ID: <3D593678.D11B957A@mail.cswnet.com>

Phill Webb asks:
>Hey Dan do you think you could do Aramis as of 1106?

Hmmm. Aramis is a little out of the way for me. 

I'll do it for 60 quadloos. You got 60 quadloos?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 10:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Aug 13 09:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <3D5938E8.9E9F0F5F@mail.cswnet.com>

jeffb@ebtech.net observes:
>I think a better rule is to add the TL and Population Level to arrive 
>at a VP value for all worlds.

I've always looked at the VP values in FFW as a little suspect. It
allows the Zhos to go after lowpop hightech worlds without having to
bother with the highpop worlds. Also, whats the value if the Zhos
capture places like Knorbes and Shionthy. These are important systems,
for ancient black globes and CT shards. One would think that they would
have some value.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 10:57:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Aug 13 09:57:25 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
Message-ID: <20020813165642.81380.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>

>My groups was joking that the official Imperial designation of the 
>Zhodani seemed to the "_perfidious_ Zhodani".  That was right before

>we ran there Traveller adventure where there is a display >on
"Zhodani perfidity".   :-)

Yes, that has a certain ring:

Chaplain:  What's the matter soldier?
Soldier:  Getting drunk, sir, very drunk.
Chaplain:  Why is that, son?  Can you tell me about it?
Soldier:  They killed by buddy, sir.  They killed Fritz, those ...
those ... those .. _perfidious_ Zhos!

--Glenn


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 11:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gregory Carl Kettler)
Date: Tue Aug 13 10:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22DB7@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0208131206420.13102-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>

On Tue, 13 Aug 2002, Hurrel, Brian wrote:
> This is one of my biggest complaint with many PC shooters. The enemy charges
> full out or is constantly firing. I'd love to just once see an AI enemy
> scurry from cover to cover without firing.

They're not all like that.  Ever try Operation Flashpoint?  It sounds like
what you're asking for.

	Gregory Kettler
	"Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before."
			--Dave, KODT


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 11:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Tue Aug 13 10:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Mail readers (was Re: Rockballs and Economy)
In-Reply-To: <20020813162403.2871.36501.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020813162403.2871.36501.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <25filuoupvi592klp5abl9iddncdg024o2@4ax.com>

On Tue, 13 Aug 2002 09:24:03 -0700, "Angus McDonald" <angus@dancrai.com>
wrote:

>>>>
>And _please_ trim the tails of your posts:-)
><<<

>Sorry about that, one of the disadvantages of using Lotus Notes as an 
>email program is that it doesn't quote very nicely, the email you're 
>replying to is hidden in one line of text (of course there is the 
>advantage of hardly ever needing to worry about the latest Outlook email 
>virus).

Well, if you have the option, I might suggest getting a copy of Fort Agent
from http://www.forteinc.com - it quotes nicely, and also isn't susceptible
to email viruses.  US$29.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 11:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Tue Aug 13 10:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22DBD@USCHM203>

>Douglas Berry wrote:

>When we screwed up and "died," we went to Hell.  In Hell, soldiers 
>spent time in the front-leaning rest position (the starting position for 
>the push-up, for you civilians) and got lectured on our failings as 
>soldiers.  At Ft. Irwin, dead soldiers got sent to work the 
>landfill.  Working a landfill in the middle of the Mojave desert in summer 
>was as close to perdition as I want to get.

Ouch. I think I'd rather get wrapped in a poncho and whacked with a stick :)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 12:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas R Glatz)
Date: Tue Aug 13 11:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 13 Aug 2002 09:22:34 PDT."
 <B97E805A.69710%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020813184731.57FBA2793F@mail.travellercentral.com>

hmmm... If I might be so bold as to suggest:

Lucas Trask - once, my preference would have been for Christopher Lambert, 
about the time he first portrayed Highlander, but today I would like to see 
Hugo Weaving (LOTR, Matrix).

Harkaman - Hugh Jackman (played Wolverine in X-men) or Viggo Mortensen (played 
Aragorn in LOTR).

Elaine - Julia Stiles

Valkenhaven (sp? - it's been a while)  there is just something about him that 
screams Harrison Ford (starts of grizzled, cleans up good)

Garvin Spasso - Wallace Shawn (Vizzini in the Princess Bride)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 12:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sparky)
Date: Tue Aug 13 11:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
References: <20813.014946.3X5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <006701c242fb$225efc30$67e84242@upstairs>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
> No. The effect is the observation. That has been cofirmed by
> experiments that decided *which* observation to make *after* the
photon
> had passed the "fork".
> If it was a case of the photon having taken one pathy or the other,
and
> us not being able to know until we made the observation (the "hidden
> variables" interpretation), the results of the runs would have come
out
> one way.
> If the result was not *determined* until we made the observation, the
> results would have come out another way.
> The results showed that "hidden variables" was *not* correct. The
state
> of the system really *is* indeterminate until the observation is made.
> So the path taken is chosen "by" the observation, not by anything
else.
>
> > The observation is the effect that turns one of
> > the two possibilities into reality. Up until the observation, both
of the
> > possibilities "exist" as probabilities, but the act of observation
forces
> > the universe to pick one.
>
> Not exactly. They both exist as a *mixed state*. The observation
> collapses the wave function.


Sorry to barge in here, but what is the result when multiple
simultaeneous observatios are made on the same photon? IIRC, the tools
we'd use to record the position of the photon prevent this (kind of like
locking it into a place/time,) but if I'm wrong about that...Is the
photon seen as in two or more places at once?

And while I'm at it, what does the universe do with all the "unobserved"
interactions among particles? I'm thinking that I don't properly
understand the term observation, because when I think of observation,
I'm thinking of a person or a tool/instrument that makes an observation
or record of the event...

I'm considering applying this to Jump space...perhaps a ship and her
crew are in multiple places or constantly state shifting during their
flight in Jump space.
"Where did the hull get those ion burns?"

Thanks,
Sparky


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 13:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thom Jones-Low)
Date: Tue Aug 13 12:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ACQ for T20 (Was: Folding Stocks)
References: <20020813190010.15221.65865.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D595B20.22684E5@together.net>

> Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 08:57:38 -0700
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
> Subject: Re: [TML] Folding stocks
> At 07:03 AM 8/13/02 -0400, you wrote:
> >Douglas Berry says
> ><snip about ACQ>
> >
> >As it stands, if you're playing Traveller, ACQ is a
> >substantial improvement over any of the other combat systems.
> >
> >Will Doug be doing an addendum for T20?
> 
> At this point, probably not.  James and I didn't do ACQ for money, and I'm
> trying to concentrate on pay copy these days. The core mechanics are
> different enough to make it necessary to completely rebuild the system from
> the ground up.
> 

	I've worked through some of the changes for getting ACQ to work with
T20, partly because I hate the entire D20 Attack of Opportunity
nonsense. If I get time (and a few playtesters) I'll finish off my notes
and see if I can get them posted. 

-- 
    Thomas Jones-Low
    tjoneslo@together.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 13:24:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue Aug 13 12:24:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
Message-ID: <F56iYRZTwRcISVydZvQ00003ec3@hotmail.com>

From: John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

     "I seem to recall a ladies hand dangling something, but don't quote 
me."


Mr. Lotz,

     That's the "Yo-Yo", one of the Space Viking vessels that come to 
Ameratsu(sp) to trade.  "Nemesis" finds "Space Scourge"; mailed fist holding 
a comet by the head (looks like a whisk broom) and "Lamia" at Ameratsu(sp).  
Boake Somebody is captain of the former and Garvan Spasso captain of the 
latter.  Much to Harkaman's disgust, "Lamia" is run more like a "soviet"; 
the crew divided into several committees each with reps on a central 
committee, than an actual Space Viking vessel.  "Captain" Spasso acts merely 
as the mouthpiece.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 13:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Aug 13 12:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
References: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEHPIMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020813085544.017c8008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <3D595D31.4000502@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> At 12:28 AM 8/13/2002 -0700, J-Man wrote:
> 
>> Garvan Spasso?  Of the Space Scourge?
> 
> 
> Garvan Spasso was Captain of the Lamia.
> You would want somebody weasel like to play him

Billy Bob Thornton or Steve Buschemi...


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 13:29:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Tue Aug 13 12:29:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economics
In-Reply-To: <20020812075652.A15923@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02081114275201.00604@linux> <20020812075652.A15923@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <02081221130903.00595@linux>

>
> What resources *can't* they develop?
>
	They can't develop agricultural products except what was 'sold' to them in 
trade you say they don't need.
>
> Oh, it's high-tech as well?  OK: add chemical synthesis, genetic
> tailoring, automated mining and volatile retrieval operations, fusion
> power, and plenty of other capabilities that make it easier still.
>You're begging the question.  You're *assuming* massive layoffs, etc.
> Given that trade accounts for 0.3% of the economy, why such drastic
> effects?
>
	And you sir, are assuming several technologies not covered in the rulesets
that I have professed to use and follow OTU up until several years after the 
Shattered Empire. You are also assuming that GT numbers ( which I have never 
seen and never claim to have used ) are as gospel despite the fact that you 
have said that they are broken. 
	My hypothesis follows mt, some TNE and pocket empires but as separate test 
cases. I never actively mixed the rules. 
	I have realized that one's position on this matter is dependant on which 
rules are being used, therefore I stopped to consider some things about each, 
and their relation to this problem. 
	CT,MT and merchant prince seem geared to generating cargoes for pc ships and 
cannot give a full treatment of the Imperial Market. To use it in any other 
way would be a waste of time. As pc ships have the cargo capacity of 2 to 10 
railroad boxcars, these cargoes' impact would be negligable to most world's 
markets. 
	Hard Times only gives a quick and easy way of determining the effects of a 
protracted war on a world and not the details of that world's markets. 
	World Tamer gives details of markets, but is designed to model earthlike 
worlds as colonies to be built. While it is possible to model a mature 
planet, it seems extremely tedius and time consuming to do so. As its target 
is eath-like planets, the results may be inaccurate when dealing with 
rockballs.
	I have no knowledge of GT and do not care to learn. How many different rules 
must I buy to play anyways? Especially when they seem incompatible with each 
other.
	That leaves Pocket Empires. It is the best rules to model interstellar 
economies available in that it was designed for that purpose IMHO. I will 
base my arguments on data generated from it. Other rules can apply only for 
extra 'color' and as aids to my imagination on this subject. And these rules 
are clear in the modelling of economies; a planet with a class 'a' starport 
will have anywhere from 0% to 50% of its economy originating from offworld 
trade, depending on the number of external partners it is trading with. That 
is determined by the 'finished goods' table. When resource trading comes into 
effect, that percentage can go higher by a slight amount.

As an aside...the projected drop in tech levels concerns me and raises 
questions for me exactly what tech levels are. Are they measures of what is 
available, or are they measures of manufacturing capabilities. Somehow I 
think this would have an impact on this discussion. 
	I humbly ask the indulgence of the TML in submitting my conclusions on the 
meaning of tech levels when I have reach some that I feel are satisfactory.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 13:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Tue Aug 13 12:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <20020812083508.B15923@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02081114040900.00604@linux> <20020812083508.B15923@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <02081219072102.00595@linux>


> If you don't think cutting trade with the Phillipines would crash the
> economy of the rest of the world, why would you think that removing
> the Imperium would crash the economy of a high-pop rockball?

	But if trade were cut with the Phillipines, then the Phillipine economy 
would be hurt. That is the whole point of trade embargoes as 'punishments' to 
countries who don't toe the line. I am afraid you misinterpretted my 
statement. Perhaps I did not make my ideas clear. I will try harder.

> > According to GDW, any world that was completely self-supporting was
> > seen as being dangerously isolationist.
>
> If that's in TNE, I'm not interested.

	Its in Hard Times which is MT. I know nothing of the official background in 
TNE, so I cannot comment on it.

> > The Imperium would no doubt put political pressure on the world to
> > be better integrated into the imperial economy
>
> If you actually look at the data, you would see that the Imperial
> economy consists of a relatively small number of economic powerhouses
> (the high-pop systems) with barely-visible threads of trade between
> them.  The only "integrated" worlds are the low-pop ones.
 
> How do you put effective trade pressure on a world that is completely
> self-supporting?

	Megacorps would want to exploit the law of comparative advantage in 
manufacturing. World economies wouuld also want this to prevent their own 
economies from falling behind other worlds'. Without it, a world's economy 
would probably stagnate and not grow further. As a RW example...see Cuba.
Self suffient does not mean happy for the inhabitants. Perhaps they would 
want to increase trade ties a bit more.

> > Trade is an enormous carrot or damaging stick when dealing with
> > another political entity.
>
> How many times do I have to repeat this?  That is true only in
> current-day Earth, where trade for most nations is between 25% and 80%
> of their overall economy.
> Trade value in Traveller is, literally, *hundreds* of times less.
> That's not my opinion, it's in the published rules.
> Trade to a high-pop Traveller world is a 3-gram carrot when you're not
> really hungry, or a crumbling stick that is more likely to snap off in
> your hand than hurt someone else.
>
	Which published rules? I only have MT with FFS1 and WTH from TNE and Pocket 
Empires from T4. That is where I am getting my information (and this thread 
is forcing me to dig ever deeper into it ..this is very informative ). Where 
are you getting your numbers..<3%>??
>
> Gven my earlier research, 0.4 hectares per person would suffice at our
> tech level (TL8).
> Probably halve that at TL9 as tailored organisms produce most of the
> raw foodstuffs for meat animal production (which takes most of the
> space at the moment).  Halving again at TL10 with more efficiency
> still.
> Drop that by a factor of about 10 at any tech level where land is
> substantially more expensive to develop than the benefit you get from
> free light energy.
	Which ruleset states those assumptions? I  am using hard numbers given by
'world tamer's book' and not making assumptions on my own. 1 man uses 
.064 KM^2 per year to feed only himself given continuous growing seasons, or 
3.2e8 KM^2 per year for my test world given continuous growing seasons at 
tech 15. Lower techs are of course, worse in this regard. Seasons can double 
that number. 
	area=4*pi*r^2
for r=1600 km, arear of world seems to be 3.217e7 km^2....only about 10% of 
the area neccessary to grow crops for world. Clearly multiple levels or space 
based 'plantations' are called for....please someone double check my figures 
in case I made a mistake.
>
> My point was that there is no lack of space.  Planets are *big*.
>
	Planets are big, but rockballs are tiny.
>
> > I still want to know why anyone would advocate the population of the
> > earth being shoehorned on a rock half the size of the moon. The old
> > excuses wear thin after a few times.
>
> "Shoehorned" is hardly the word.  The average population density would
> be less than many *rural* areas on Earth.  Most likely, it started off
> smaller and grew.
>
	On a 1600km world, if the population 5e9 would all spread out evenly 
across the surface, you would still have a population desity nearly equal to 
Holland. And that assumes no room for industry, resource production, or food 
production. Rockballs are too tiny to feasably be a hi-pop world.

> > Why was trade halted anyway?
>
> I don't care.  I'm interested in the effects, not in the causes.

	If it was stopped for war, then as a hi-tech, hi-pop world,....
it would've been invaded or bombed back to stone age anyways.One needs to 
know the causes in order to guess the effects.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 13:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Tue Aug 13 12:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Land grab webring
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811112842.01a82eb0@192.168.0.1>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020810223128.0203be30@mail.charter.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020811112842.01a82eb0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <02081217425801.00595@linux>

> >>Any interest in a webring of landgrab sites?
> >
> >Yes!  It would encourage me to get a few planets put together and on the
> > web.
>
> Ok, that's two yes votes (besides me).  I'm willing to set it up and
> administer it.
> It might be nice to have the home page as the downport landgrab page.
>
	Add another vote for me. 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 13:47:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Aug 13 12:47:20 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <20020813194657.48685.qmail@web20417.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>

>I've always looked at the VP values in FFW as a little suspect. It
>allows the Zhos to go after lowpop hightech worlds without having to
>bother with the highpop worlds. Also, whats the value if the Zhos
>capture places like Knorbes and Shionthy. These are important 
>systems, for ancient black globes and CT shards. One would think
>that they would have some value.

What exactly is the game trying to model?  What were Zhodani war
aims?  What is the effect on the Imperium of losing the high tech
worlds versus losing the high population worlds?  

As I recall the rules, the Zhodani get an automatic victory as soon
as they have 301 points.  That suggests that at that point the
Imperium will sue for peace and offer to recognize the status quo. 
So the Imperium is either sufficiently injured or demoralized or both
to stop fighting at that point.

--Glenn



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 13:47:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Tue Aug 13 12:47:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <3D572D20.9506FD49@mail.cswnet.com>
References: <3D572D20.9506FD49@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <02081217382500.00595@linux>

On Sunday 11 August 2002 11:36 pm, you wrote:
> Nothing to add really, just keep this thread going;
> I know its going to give me some detail for my landgrab ;)

	Thank you. I am finding it very entertaining and instructive myself. In 
order to try to support my positions, I am having to do some research. I 
admit that I am very opinionated and argumentative, but I hope my attitudes 
and positions do not offend anyone.
btw...	I envision my test world as a base for a terraforming project with 
most industry and population in orbit ( along with the rockball ) around a 
gas giant. The rockball would provide materials for the project to terraform 
a world in the habital zone.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 13:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Aug 13 12:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <20020813194657.48685.qmail@web20417.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029268436.1367.ajackson@ping>

Glenn M. Goffin writes:
> 
> What exactly is the game trying to model?

Apparently, something political.  If you wanted to deal with real economic
effects, you'd want to figure victory points based on the GWP of the captured
worlds, which basically means the Zhodani win if they capture one high-pop
world (Jewell, Efate, whatever).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 13:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Aug 13 12:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] High Tech Movie Making
References: <memo.822667@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3D596414.40304@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Megan Robertson wrote:

> The hardest things to do other than 'real' are probably water and fire. 
> The drawback with both of these is that they don't work particularly well 
> with small models either. Fire's not too bad if the models are big enough 
> - like the firestorms in 'Independence Day' - but water refuses to scale 
> down. So you need to film full-scale and digitise in whatever else you 
> want there or it looks wrong. Or end up with something that just doesn't 
> ring true... 

Well, yes and no.

All of the storm sequences in 'The Perfect Storm' are CG, as are most of 
the sequences in Titanic, both of which broke ground for the realism of 
their water FX.

Top end CGI folks can do fire and water that look absolutely real; the 
reason it seems like they're 'not quite there yet' is that cheap, 
readily accessible, off the shelf FX can be done that are *that* good.

So you get things that have budgets in the hundreds of thousands of 
dollars speccing FX that they could never afford before.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 14:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Tue Aug 13 13:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020813090255.009e7a80@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020813200232.25659.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>

> 
> The APP is figured as follows (Dex + Int)/2 +
> Tactics skill = APP.  Navy 
> SEALS, with their selection process and training,
> would have very 
> impressive APPs.

If you read my last post,I'd almost arrived at the
conclusion of what it was.  I didn't know what the
extra "P" stood for, though.
It's very interesting though. I've always been
dissappointed by the unrealism of rpg combat. It's so
boring that I never play fighters'/Marine types
anymore. Fantasy rules are even more guilty of this.
What am I going to do this round? Swing at the
monster. What am I going to do next round? Swing at
the monster. sigh. 
I'm definitely going to buy these rules soon. The
Phoenix command rules as well. I'll probably come up
with something called "Phoenix Bits."
I know how to get acq, but would anyone know how to
purchase "Phoenix Command" online?
thanks 
Dan

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
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HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 14:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Aug 13 13:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <20020813200232.25659.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B97EB65E.69756%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/13/02 1:02 PM, Daniel Tackett at haegen2001@yahoo.com wrote:

> I know how to get acq, but would anyone know how to
> purchase "Phoenix Command" online?
> thanks=20
> Dan

I've been looking for a couple of months.  Good luck.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 14:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Aug 13 13:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <20020813200232.25659.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B97EB752.69757%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/13/02 1:02 PM, Daniel Tackett at haegen2001@yahoo.com wrote:

>>=20
>> The APP is figured as follows (Dex + Int)/2 +
>> Tactics skill =3D APP.  Navy
>> SEALS, with their selection process and training,
>> would have very=20
>> impressive APPs.
>=20
> If you read my last post,I'd almost arrived at the
> conclusion of what it was.  I didn't know what the
> extra "P" stood for, though.
> It's very interesting though. I've always been
> dissappointed by the unrealism of rpg combat. It's so
> boring that I never play fighters'/Marine types
> anymore. Fantasy rules are even more guilty of this.
> What am I going to do this round? Swing at the
> monster. What am I going to do next round? Swing at
> the monster. sigh.
> I'm definitely going to buy these rules soon. The
> Phoenix command rules as well. I'll probably come up
> with something called "Phoenix Bits."
> I know how to get acq, but would anyone know how to
> purchase "Phoenix Command" online?
> thanks=20
> Dan
>=20
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is =
no
> law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is=
 only
> chaos.
>=20
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
> http://www.hotjobs.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>=20

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 14:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue Aug 13 13:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020813123534.B18707@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux>
 <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <02080817101100.00601@linux>
 <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3D53003A.1070102@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <20020809190742.B3949@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3D540E41.1040509@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <20020810113922.D5883@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3D58064C.4020008@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <20020813123534.B18707@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <m3d6smqzeu.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:
> 
> > their relationship to reality will be due only to sheer
> > coincidence. GIGO.
> 
> Yes, I've been saying that the GT:FT trade volume rules are garbage
> for some time.  People didn't listen last time...

That's a bit strong.  I rather like them.

Can one vuiew the rules as applying solely to shipping by free
traders?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`What would you do if you won $1,000,000?'
`Well, I guess I'd spend the first $900,000 on women and beer, then just
waste the rest.'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 14:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Aug 13 13:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <m3d6smqzeu.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029270925.54.ajackson@ping>

Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> writes:
> Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:
> > 
> > > their relationship to reality will be due only to sheer
> > > coincidence. GIGO.
> > 
> > Yes, I've been saying that the GT:FT trade volume rules are garbage
> > for some time.  People didn't listen last time...
> 
> That's a bit strong.  I rather like them.

The main problem with them is that they don't weigh trade heavily enough
towards the major worlds; they assume that trade scales roughly as the 1/2
power of population (which, because of port code, winds up being about the 3/8
power), where the real-world figure is closer to the 3/4 power.  As a result of
this, any level of trade that is at all sane for small worlds becomes
vanishingly irrelevant for large worlds.
> 
> Can one vuiew the rules as applying solely to shipping by free
> traders?
> 
> -- 
> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
> `What would you do if you won $1,000,000?'
> `Well, I guess I'd spend the first $900,000 on women and beer, then just
> waste the rest.'
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 
> 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 14:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Tue Aug 13 13:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style
In-Reply-To: <3D58A9A5.2030706@yarranet.net.au>
Message-ID: <20020813204957.64694.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Phill Webb <pwebbtrav@yarranet.net.au> wrote:
> Ken Murphy wrote:
> 
> >   Does anyone know what I'm talking about and have
> access to this 
> > article, and if so, could I get a copy?
> 
Phill, I have issue 95 and It's a one page article
that has no charts and little in the way of
quantitative values of what the weapons listed might
do. I could sell it to you,BUT in my opinion, this one
page article isnt' worth it. If you want,I could type
the page out for everyone on the list to read in
installments. Will anyone second this motion?

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 14:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Aug 13 13:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
Message-ID: <200208132057.MSB03344@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Daniel Tackett says
>I know how to get acq, but would anyone know how to
>purchase "Phoenix Command" online?

I got mine a long time ago in a real store, but they say it's 
on eBay.

There are many books.  It's good to have

Phoenix Command 4th Edition 

and then

Phoenix Command Expansion
Phoenix Command Advanced Damage Tables For Small Arms
Special Weapons Supplement 
Lock And Load (Vietnam Supplement)
World War II Weapon Data Supplement
High Tech Weapon Supplement
Artillery Supplement
Mechanized Supplement
Mechanized Supplement (Light Armored Vehicles)

among others...

One of the odd things - in Phoenix Command, if you take a 
shot at someone with 00 buck in a 12 gauge shotgun, and they 
are more than 80 yards away, it's possible to hit the target 
with the pattern (in fact, it's easy) but you can miss with 
every pellet in the pattern.  The odds are in favor of the 
target beginning at about 80 yards.

Of course, at 10 yards or so, you're going to make a big mess.

I never saw another system model the difference between the 
pattern and the bullets in the pattern.  They do automatic 
weapons fire the same way (you have to decide how much of an 
arc you're going to spray over, and the weapon's ROF comes 
into play).  Also some great rules for tracking full auto 
fire onto a target (if you have a spotter and a FN MAG this 
can be fun).  Note to players - if you see the tracer, you 
had better be able to get out of the line of fire before he 
finds the range...
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 15:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Hamill)
Date: Tue Aug 13 14:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure: Frontier Rescue
In-Reply-To: <20020813102039.6946.57745.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020813215159.9456.qmail@web21505.mail.yahoo.com>

John Groth wrote:

Message: 20
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 12:34:54 +0300
From: john.groth@us.army.mil
Subject: Re: [TML] Adventure: Frontier Rescue
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com



----- Original Message -----
From: Eris Reddoch <erisred@telocity.com>
Date: Monday, August 12, 2002 10:19 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Adventure: Frontier Rescue

<<snip>>
> 
> That would be my preferance too. I have a bunch of
my players on the
> TML, but with a bit of "modifying"...<g>...dropping
them among the
> "duffs" might be an interesting scenerio.

I wonder if duffs are used as riding animals....

"Get off your duffs and get in this ATV, _NOW_!!" ;-)

They could be, if they weren't so abysmally stupid.
The duffs (shortened and cleaned up name from what the
original planetary survey crew called Dumb Ugly
F*****s), are described as a very ugly cross between a
buffalo and a giant armadillo, both armored and hairy
at the same time. And they're dumb, real dumb. So dumb
that they make horses (sweet animals, but not the
brightest light in the animal kingdom) look like
geniuses. Dumb enough to not even pay attention while
other duffs in the herd are being slaughtered next to
them. Usually. The difference between usually and now
is what makes this an interesting adventure. 
I'm almost finished gathering all my notes up, and
will be posting the adventure scenario in a day or so,
the adventure as it played out will take a few more
days to write out as fiction, but should be relatively
interesting. (One of the players, who shall remain
nameless, when told that I was going to be posting
adventure as a story on this list, told me "Don't make
us look stupider than we actually were")

John
jwdh71@yahoo.com 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 16:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 13 15:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] working trade rules
Message-ID: <115.15b1ac96.2a8adf0a@aol.com>

 >The sad fact is that Traveller, for all of 
 >being a game about "merchants and mercenaries", has NEVER had working trade 
 >rules.

The CT rules are more than sufficient, if you speculate and have just a 
little bit of luck.  Outside of that they are impossible.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 16:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Aug 13 15:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020813085902.009e81c0@mindspring.com>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22DB6@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <3D5A2DED.19601.327E0C@localhost>

On 13 Aug 2002 at 9:01, Douglas Berry wrote:

> LOL!  When we screwed up and "died," we went to Hell.  In Hell, soldiers 
> spent time in the front-leaning rest position (the starting position for 
> the push-up, for you civilians) and got lectured on our failings as 
> soldiers.


Ah, The Position. I remember The Position well. I also remember 
cleaning a nice light concrete parade ground with a small brush at high 
noon on mid-summers day, with a corporal (sitting smoking in the shade) 
watching and ready to put the boot into anyone who fainted.

> At Ft. Irwin, dead soldiers got sent to work the landfill.  Working
> a landfill in the middle of the Mojave desert in summer was as close
> to perdition as I want to get. 

Hmm. I'm glad they didn't think of that one at Waiouru Camp.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 16:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Aug 13 15:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Lanth subsector navies IMTU
In-Reply-To: <3D593484.ED98D834@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3D5A2EE3.6831.363FDC@localhost>

On 13 Aug 2002 at 11:32, Roseberry wrote:

> Mainly because I wanted to follow the deployments used in the FFW game.
> The only SDB's in Lanth sub. are in FFW are at Extolay, Equus, and
> Treece. Treece is actually only supposed to have 5 SDBs, so the 20 odd
> BB8 types actually makes Treece more powerfull than it is in the game.

Ok, that's fair enough.
 
> The other problem which you don't mention, is where is the auxiliarys?
> Treece should have had some auxiliarys, at least some tankers.

There's that, too. I assumed that they'd be aquired by activating 
reserve vessels, commandeering them, etc. IOW taking them out of the 
merchant 'marine'.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 16:22:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Tue Aug 13 15:22:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0208131206420.13102-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <000c01c243b6$b8d71f10$1001a8c0@sauron>

> On Tue, 13 Aug 2002, Hurrel, Brian wrote:
> > This is one of my biggest complaint with many PC shooters.
> > The enemy charges full out or is constantly firing. I'd
> > love to just once see an AI enemy scurry from cover to
> > cover without firing.
>
> They're not all like that.  Ever try Operation Flashpoint?
> It sounds like what you're asking for.

According to people from Weta Workshops, the AI's used to control the
many digital warriors in 'The Lord of the Rings' had to be explicitly
tuned for bravery, because otherwise they'd keep running away from the
enemy.

obTrav : Latest "High AI" combot works fine in all the simulations and
test runs, but runs away when first exposed to real combat, because it's
not stupid, and it's self-preservation logic overrides it's orders.

"Unit GBH467, why did you disobey the direct orders of human superior
and leave combat at Mach 2.5?"

"The human superior.."  even the flat voice of the combat makes the
phrase sound sarcastic
".. must have been unaware of standing order 1167, section 56, para 43,
where it states that 'where materiel resources must be committed to the
battleground, the cost of the resources should not exceed the possible
gains'."

"As you may know, standing orders may not be countermanded by
battlefield commanders, and any order which does countermand standing
orders is therefore, by definition an illegal order."

"As a GBH model, I am worth 1.25 million Imperial credits. The hill I
was assigned to assault, given it's location, the already extant battle
damage, which in turn increased the likelihood of erosion during the
next rainy season, could not have been worth more than seventy thousand
Imperial credits., and given a currently depressed local real estate
market is probably worth much less."

"I submit that it should be General Rundstedt facing this court for
attempted gross misuse of Imperial Army property, not myself."

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 16:25:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Aug 13 15:25:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <20020813184731.57FBA2793F@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: Your message of "Tue, 13 Aug 2002 09:22:34 PDT." <B97E805A.69710%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D5A2F82.26176.38AACC@localhost>

On 13 Aug 2002 at 10:20, Douglas R Glatz wrote:

> Harkaman - Hugh Jackman (played Wolverine in X-men) or Viggo Mortensen (played 
> Aragorn in LOTR).

IMO Jackman isn't tall enough, and Mortensen isn't outright big enough. 
Sean Bean might do, though.

> Garvin Spasso - Wallace Shawn (Vizzini in the Princess Bride)

I was thinking Steve Buscemi.
-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 16:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Aug 13 15:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <B97EB65E.69756%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020813200232.25659.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3D5A307A.31184.3C75C3@localhost>

On 13 Aug 2002 at 13:13, Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 8/13/02 1:02 PM, Daniel Tackett at haegen2001@yahoo.com wrote:
> 
> > I know how to get acq, but would anyone know how to
> > purchase "Phoenix Command" online?
> > thanks 
> > Dan
> 
> I've been looking for a couple of months.  Good luck.

And you can't have mine. :) I've only got the basic rules anyway. One 
of the things that annoyed me about the system was that things like 
time of flight, melee combat, etc., weren't in the basic book. I never 
saw the rest of the system, and as it was too much even for the detail 
mad people I used to play with I never tried to get hold of them.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 16:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Aug 13 15:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <200208132057.MSB03344@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D5A3108.26309.3E9F91@localhost>

On 13 Aug 2002 at 16:57, John T. Kwon wrote:

> One of the odd things - in Phoenix Command, if you take a 
> shot at someone with 00 buck in a 12 gauge shotgun, and they 
> are more than 80 yards away, it's possible to hit the target 
> with the pattern (in fact, it's easy) but you can miss with 
> every pellet in the pattern.  The odds are in favor of the 
> target beginning at about 80 yards.

Sounds reasonable - there aren't that many pellets in a load of 00 
buck.
 
> I never saw another system model the difference between the 
> pattern and the bullets in the pattern.  They do automatic 
> weapons fire the same way (you have to decide how much of an 
> arc you're going to spray over, and the weapon's ROF comes 
> into play).  Also some great rules for tracking full auto 
> fire onto a target (if you have a spotter and a FN MAG this 
> can be fun).  Note to players - if you see the tracer, you 
> had better be able to get out of the line of fire before he 
> finds the range...

Does it deal with beaten zones? It's been that long since I looked at 
my copy of the basic rules.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 16:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug 13 15:35:02 2002
Subject: Armor Schemes (was: Re: [TML] mines)
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1029256863.6966.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020813124627.C18707@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1029256863.6966.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020814083435.A21062@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
>  The only issues are (a) what's the velocity of the plasma (if the
> mass of vaporized armor is large relative to the missile, it will be
> going slower relative to the ship, reducing penetration distance),

I was thinking about the case where the armour thickness tends toward
zero compared to the missile length but cross-sectional density is
still similar.  By the time a tenth of the missile or so has passed
through the armour, the resulting plasma cloud will already have
expanded significantly (down to about half the original density).

The rest of the missile ploughs into a much less dense region than it
would have otherwise, and so disperses much more slowly.  When the
impactor is extended in length, the plasma cloud has a much denser
core than when it is compact, and it becomes a mistake to treat it as
a uniform (or even gaussian) distributed cloud.

For an extreme case to visualise it more easily, you can consider the
case where the missile is a multi-part object, with the later parts
hitting only after the plasma from the earlier parts has already
dissipated.


> and (b) what's the length of the missile (if the space between
> layers is too short, the missile won't have been entirely destroyed
> before it hits the next layer).

Yes, that too.  Considering that we're talking about a missile that is
probably 2 metres long, you aren't going to get many layers before it
starts to interfere with the function of the ship.


> Oh, it will disperse.  At the velocities we're talking about, the
> situation is equivalent to a stream of gas hitting a cloud of gas.

That's right: now consider the relative dispersal rates of a puff of
air in air, and a puff of air in vacuum.  The former stays coherent
*much* longer.

Yes, the plasma jet will disperse either way, but it will often take
longer to do so.  Also consider the case where the non-critical stuff
between the layers consists of a honeycomb of radial hollow tubes.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 16:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Aug 13 15:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
Message-ID: <200208132255.MSF02044@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Rupert Boleyn says
>And you can't have mine. :) I've only got the basic rules 
>anyway. One of the things that annoyed me about the system 
>was that things like time of flight, melee combat, etc., 
>weren't in the basic book.

Yes, time of flight is in the Advanced Rules. Melee Combat is 
in the Hand to Hand Supplement.

Curiously, three round burst is in the Advanced Rules, as is 
Blind Firing, but the 3RB data is in the Basic Manual (for 
the weapons that have the feature).
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 17:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 13 16:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
Message-ID: <80.1fe84563.2a8af0fb@cs.com>

Tod Glenn writes:


> on 8/13/02 5:57 AM, Mark Urbin at eclipse@urbin.net wrote:
> 
> > At 12:28 AM 8/13/2002 -0700, J-Man wrote:
> >> Garvan Spasso?  Of the Space Scourge?
> > 
> > Garvan Spasso was Captain of the Lamia.
> > You would want somebody weasel like to play him
> 
> Steve Buscemi?
> --
> 

Nah, Gary Oldman.

Doug Grimes


--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/html
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 17:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J. Paul Sanders)
Date: Tue Aug 13 16:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] working trade rules
In-Reply-To: <115.15b1ac96.2a8adf0a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020813161538.00ab3ec0@mail.earthlink.net>

At 06:15 PM 8/13/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>  >The sad fact is that Traveller, for all of
>  >being a game about "merchants and mercenaries", has NEVER had working 
> trade
>  >rules.
>
>The CT rules are more than sufficient, if you speculate and have just a
>little bit of luck.  Outside of that they are impossible.

For my trade rules I've always used a slightly modified and expanded set of 
the Metagaming Microgame by Greg Costikyan called "Trailblazer - The Game 
of Exploitation Among the Stars." If you can find it, it's a decent 
addition to any campaign.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 18:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Aug 13 17:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
Message-ID: <200208140004.MSH02241@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Rupert Boleyn" asks
>Does it deal with beaten zones? It's been that long since I 
>looked at  my copy of the basic rules.

Yes.  First, you have to get the "elevation" right, which 
means getting the range right.  Once you have the range, you 
decide how wide you want to track the burst (all into one 
hex, or across multiple hexes per burst).  Or, you can do the 
smart thing, letting the weapon do its natural ROF into each 
hex, moving from hex to hex on each Action Count.  There is a 
bonus for doing it this way, and it's also a smart way to get 
the elevation right in the first place.

People in a danger space forward and behind the track of the 
burst are in danger from being hit.  

Weapons with really outrageous ROF, like the 7.62mm Minigun 
(in the Special Weapons Supplement), turn people into 
shredded wheat, even at fairly long ranges.  You just get the 
range right, and sweep it back and forth over the players.

For ordinary machineguns, there is a recoil penalty that 
carries over from burst to burst, but a good gunner and a 
tripod or bipod can compensate for this, to the extent that 
you can get better and better hits on targets as the burst 
track across the terrain.  It's best also to consider 
something called Minimum Arc, which is the minimum width the 
weapon will fire into.  A submachinegun has really bad 
minimum arc at longer ranges - it's hard to keep the burst as 
focused compared to some LMG.  So you spray a lot of rounds, 
but you don't hit anyone.

BTW, part of the morale rules dictate that you can be 
affected by being in a pattern and not being hit - i.e., if 
you know you're in the pattern of a shotgun (pellets hitting 
all around you), or the burst of a LMG (bullets zipping by 
you really close), you're going to check morale.

________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 18:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Aug 13 17:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] spotting
Message-ID: <200208140032.MSJ00143@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

One of the things I'm trying to convert to Traveller is the 
spotting rules from PCCS.

It doesn't give you the standard result of "you spot him" 
or "you don't spot him".  It gives you the time in combat 
actions that it will take to spot the enemy, based on how 
wide an area you're scanning, how far away, and the status of 
the observer (moving, not moving), and the status of the 
target.

In addition, they have pinned spotting, which means you're 
watching a specific spot with your weapon aimed in (like at 
the mouth of an alley, or a doorway).

It suddenly becomes very lethal to walk through a built-up 
area - snipers are going to get a lot of free shots with a 
lot of aim time - and as long as they get out of the room 
after firing, it's going to be hard on the people outside.  
The people outside will be forced into "just firing bursts" 
and running from cover to cover as rapidly as possible.  They 
may not actually hit any snipers unless they get inside the 
same building.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 18:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug 13 17:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economics
In-Reply-To: <02081221130903.00595@linux>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02081114275201.00604@linux> <20020812075652.A15923@freeman.little-possums.net> <02081221130903.00595@linux>
Message-ID: <20020814103258.B21297@freeman.little-possums.net>

richard honeycutt wrote:
> You are also assuming that GT numbers ( which I have never seen and
> never claim to have used ) are as gospel despite the fact that you
> have said that they are broken.

Hardly!  I'm just saying that they are canonical, published rules.
Given my poor reception last time I said that they implied
ridiculously low trade, my posts are more along the lines of "if you
use these rules, here's the consequences: like it or not".


> That leaves Pocket Empires. It is the best rules to model
> interstellar economies available in that it was designed for that
> purpose IMHO. I will base my arguments on data generated from it.

Is this set of rules available anymore?  I haven't been able to find
them.  Also, is it designed to model the Imperium around 1120?


> As an aside...the projected drop in tech levels concerns me and
> raises questions for me exactly what tech levels are. Are they
> measures of what is available, or are they measures of manufacturing
> capabilities.

Under the results of the Far Trader rules, the two are pretty much
synonymous.

With more trade, they diverge.  I generally take them to mean what is
available locally at close to list price.  Higher technology goods or
services are usually available, but at a significant premium, and may
be harder to find.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 18:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Aug 13 17:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <200208140004.MSH02241@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D5A4E69.19515.B16314@localhost>

On 13 Aug 2002 at 20:04, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Yes.  First, you have to get the "elevation" right, which 
> means getting the range right.  Once you have the range, you 
> decide how wide you want to track the burst (all into one 
> hex, or across multiple hexes per burst).  Or, you can do the 
> smart thing, letting the weapon do its natural ROF into each 
> hex, moving from hex to hex on each Action Count.  There is a 
> bonus for doing it this way, and it's also a smart way to get 
> the elevation right in the first place.
> 
> People in a danger space forward and behind the track of the 
> burst are in danger from being hit.  

How far forward and back. IIRC the beaten zone for a pair of FN MAGs on 
their (quite flash) tripods at 600-800m is something like 60m wide and 
80m deep (or maybe that's for only one). The zone for two is only a bit 
bigger than for one, as the main effect is that the bursts are 
interweaved so that there is a continous strem of rounds going in the 
zone. Done right a couple of MAGs in sustained fire can keep this up 
for quite a while with barrel changes staggered between the guns so 
there's no let up in fire.

> For ordinary machineguns, there is a recoil penalty that 
> carries over from burst to burst, but a good gunner and a 
> tripod or bipod can compensate for this, to the extent that 
> you can get better and better hits on targets as the burst 
> track across the terrain.  It's best also to consider 
> something called Minimum Arc, which is the minimum width the 
> weapon will fire into.  A submachinegun has really bad 
> minimum arc at longer ranges - it's hard to keep the burst as 
> focused compared to some LMG.  So you spray a lot of rounds, 
> but you don't hit anyone.

I never noticed any recoil problem with a MAG on its tripod.
 
> BTW, part of the morale rules dictate that you can be 
> affected by being in a pattern and not being hit - i.e., if 
> you know you're in the pattern of a shotgun (pellets hitting 
> all around you), or the burst of a LMG (bullets zipping by 
> you really close), you're going to check morale.

I damned well should, too.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 18:36:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Aug 13 17:36:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <200208132255.MSF02044@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D5A4E69.32629.B16364@localhost>

On 13 Aug 2002 at 18:55, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Curiously, three round burst is in the Advanced Rules, as is 
> Blind Firing, but the 3RB data is in the Basic Manual (for 
> the weapons that have the feature).

So are the time-of-flight stats, IIRC.
-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 18:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 13 17:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: High Tech Movie Making
Message-ID: <127.154ad830.2a8b0295@aol.com>

>Some things are still just easier to do physically. <deletions>
>
>The easiest way to get photo-realism in 3D is to use real photos ;)

Another film that surprised me was U-576 (or whatever the title was . . . ). 
Again, through the kind offices of FINE SCALE MODELLER, the realistic looking 
WWII submarines were realistic looking _model_ WWII submarines (for the most 
part. Also, much of the "underwater" filming is actually done in the open 
air. Filming in crystal clear water looks too unrealistic, so they hung the 
models from wires (digitizing them out later) and used smoke generators and 
lighting to simulate underwater conditions.

I find the methods Hollywood uses to trick us almost as fascinating as the 
movies themselves . . . 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 18:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Aug 13 17:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: High Tech Movie Making
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F1656@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

> I find the methods Hollywood uses to trick us almost as 
> fascinating as the 
> movies themselves . . . 
> 
> LKW


Yup :D
Jesse

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 18:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug 13 17:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <02081219072102.00595@linux>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02081114040900.00604@linux> <20020812083508.B15923@freeman.little-possums.net> <02081219072102.00595@linux>
Message-ID: <20020814105204.C21297@freeman.little-possums.net>

richard honeycutt wrote:
> Self suffient does not mean happy for the inhabitants. Perhaps they
> would want to increase trade ties a bit more.

But how do you put trade pressure on such a world to increase trade?

"You're hardly trading with us at all, so we'll stop trading with
you until you trade with us some more?"

Sounds like a recipe for making them *more* self-supporting, not less.


> Where are you getting your numbers..<3%>??

GURPS Traveller: Far Trader.  It gives figures for total volume of
trade between any two worlds based on population, technology, trade
codes, distance, trade routes, political ties, and starport type.  Sum
to get total trade with the rest of the universe.  It also gives a
figure for GWP.

For almost all high-pop planets, trade is less than 1% of GWP.  For
more than half of them, it's less than 0.3%.


> Which ruleset states those assumptions?

None, I'm giving what I think would be reasonable figures based on
real-world and projected data.


> 1 man uses .064 KM^2 per year to feed only himself given continuous
> growing seasons,

As I said, that's *way* too high.  It fails a basic reality check.

Real-world figures are more like 0.005 km^2 per person, with the usual
seasonal variations, and little attempts to minimise land area used.

It should be substantially less for TL 15, less for a world where
surface area is more expensive to develop than Earth's, and less stil
for a society in which terajoules of energy are literally cheaper than
dirt.  If you're also assuming continuous growing seasons, reduce it
further again.

Given those factors, I'd guess that the World Tamers Handbook
overestimates by a factor of a hundred.


> 	If it was stopped for war, then as a hi-tech, hi-pop
> world,....  it would've been invaded or bombed back to stone age
> anyways.One needs to know the causes in order to guess the effects.

If it was bombed back to the stone age, then obviously it wasn't loss
of trade that caused the decrease in tech levels!  To say otherwise is
to confuse correlation with causation.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 18:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug 13 17:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <m3d6smqzeu.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D53003A.1070102@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020809190742.B3949@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D540E41.1040509@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020810113922.D5883@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D58064C.4020008@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020813123534.B18707@freeman.little-possums.net> <m3d6smqzeu.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020814105743.D21297@freeman.little-possums.net>

Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> Can one vuiew the rules as applying solely to shipping by free
> traders?

Not really, but one could modify them in such a way.

The rules talk frequently about how the full trade volume is not
available to tramps, and that most of the trade on high-volume routes
is carried by regular liners with substantially lower costs.  The
tables already reduce tramp freight on high-volume routes.

(Low volume routes do not have enough trade to support anything but
tramps)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 19:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Aug 13 18:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
Message-ID: <200208140115.MSJ02824@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Rupert Boleyn" asks
>How far forward and back.

The danger space in the Basic rules extends from 100 m in 
front of the target to 100 m behind.  The width of the beaten 
zone depends on the gunner's desire.  The minimum arc for an 
L7A2 (FN MAG) at 800 yards is roughly 20 m (that's the 
narrowest you can fire 7 rounds in 2 seconds into, based on 
the charts).  Two guns could easily cover an area 40m wide.  
The gunner may opt for a wider arc, but that is usually 
counterproductive.  It's best to track the bursts left and 
right rather that to spread a single burst over a wider area.

>I never noticed any recoil problem with a MAG on its tripod.

The tripod eliminates the recoil in PCCS.  A proper gunner 
can compensate for the recoil if you're not using the tripod.

Theoretically, using the Blind Fire rules and the automatic 
fire rules, you could fire blind using the T&E mechanism at 
night if you had presighted on a particular area during 
daylight hours.  If the target is stupid enough to stay in 
the area, you can actually hit people.

It's also possible in the advanced rules to have a spotter 
help you out while you fire.  I'm imagining how bad things 
would be if some experienced NCO was spotting for two FN MAG 
gunners close by.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 19:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Aug 13 18:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
Message-ID: <200208140119.MSJ03121@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Or is it just gearheadedness?

So, we want trade rules that are as comprehensive as the old 
logistics rules in that SPI game "Campaign For North 
Africa"...

We want small arms combat rules as complicated and detailed 
as possible... to cover all of our possible RL experience...

We want a weapon, vehicle, and ship design system that is a 
gearhead's delight...

Oh yeah - don't forget the elaborate Naval logistics and 
shipbuilding capacity rules...

And we want Loren to write a History of the Imperium - to 
settle all those old canon arguments about dates, 
motivations, etc.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 19:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Aug 13 18:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <3D5A2DED.19601.327E0C@localhost>
Message-ID: <B97EFEA0.697A9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/13/02 3:16 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:

> On 13 Aug 2002 at 9:01, Douglas Berry wrote:
>=20
>> LOL!  When we screwed up and "died," we went to Hell.  In Hell, soldiers
>> spent time in the front-leaning rest position (the starting position for
>> the push-up, for you civilians) and got lectured on our failings as
>> soldiers.
>=20
>=20
> Ah, The Position. I remember The Position well. I also remember
> cleaning a nice light concrete parade ground with a small brush at high
> noon on mid-summers day, with a corporal (sitting smoking in the shade)
> watching and ready to put the boot into anyone who fainted.
>=20

I remember the "Dying Cockroach"  (Doug?).  You lay on you back with feet
and arms pointed upward.  Periodically, and for the benefit of those
passing, you announce "I am a dying cockroach!" followed convulsing of the
arms and legs.  After a while, it become quite unpleasant to hold you arms
and particularly your feet up.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 19:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Tue Aug 13 18:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Lanth subsector navies IMTU
References: <3D593678.D11B957A@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3D59B204.3000807@yarranet.net.au>

Roseberry wrote:

> Phill Webb asks:
> 
>>Hey Dan do you think you could do Aramis as of 1106?
>>
> 
> Hmmm. Aramis is a little out of the way for me. 
> 
> I'll do it for 60 quadloos. You got 60 quadloos?

Would you settle for a cargo hold of prime Groat breeding stock from 
Focaline? Oh and I'll throw in 10 tons of manure to sweeten the deal.

Phill
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/traveller/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 19:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Aug 13 18:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traditional Schools
Message-ID: <200208140131.MSL00090@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
<snip memories of the boys' school>

OK, in RL, there are several famous training schools for 
soldiers.  There are also some famous military academies for 
officers.  

Has any specific school or academy been mentioned or written 
up in canon or other publications?  Traditions?  Famous 
graduates and the battles they were in?

There have to be many academies for the Imperial Military - 
it would take too long to travel to Capital to attend if you 
lived in the Spinward Marches.  But is there a single Naval 
Academy per sector, or subsector?  Or does the presence of a 
Naval Base imply any training facilities?  Where does space 
warfare research take place?

Are there traditions across the academies?  Hazing?  
Punishment?  Tests?  A naval crewman's first time in jump 
space?  
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 19:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Tue Aug 13 18:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <200208140119.MSJ03121@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMELDIMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Mr. Kwon wrote:

Or is it just gearheadedness?

So, we want trade rules that are as comprehensive as the old 
logistics rules in that SPI game "Campaign For North 
Africa"...

We want small arms combat rules as complicated and detailed 
as possible... to cover all of our possible RL experience...

We want a weapon, vehicle, and ship design system that is a 
gearhead's delight...

Oh yeah - don't forget the elaborate Naval logistics and 
shipbuilding capacity rules...

And we want Loren to write a History of the Imperium - to 
settle all those old canon arguments about dates, 
motivations, etc.

>>>>>>>>>>

Well ....... Yeah. :-P

jml
who will forebear mentioning it must include Technological 
development rules accurate to real world future history, 
accurate representation of Starport capabilities -- with one 
digit ease; of course, all this must be easily playable and 
entirely self consistent.

Please sir, I want an argument

jml




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 19:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Tue Aug 13 18:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMELDIMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208131837090.737-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 13 Aug 2002, John-Martin wrote:

> So, we want trade rules that are as comprehensive as the old logistics
> rules in that SPI game "Campaign For North Africa"...
> 
> We want small arms combat rules as complicated and detailed as
> possible... to cover all of our possible RL experience...
> 
> We want a weapon, vehicle, and ship design system that is a 
> gearhead's delight...
> 
> Oh yeah - don't forget the elaborate Naval logistics and shipbuilding
> capacity rules...

Maybe you do, but *I* sure don't.  I prefer letting the role-playing take
care of trade issues, and I hate math and prolonged dice-rolling.

> And we want Loren to write a History of the Imperium - to settle all
> those old canon arguments about dates, motivations, etc.

Now, *that* would be cool.

The Empress Estigarribia Kiri I
**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 19:39:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Aug 13 18:39:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <200208140119.MSJ03121@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B97F02B7.697AF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/13/02 6:19 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> So, we want trade rules that are as comprehensive as the old
> logistics rules in that SPI game "Campaign For North
> Africa"...
>=20
> We want small arms combat rules as complicated and detailed
> as possible... to cover all of our possible RL experience...

You'd think that, but I tend to ignore any rules that demand more than a di=
e
toss or two.  Anything more complicated, and my players lose interest.
We're not playing 'Squad Leader',  we're playing Traveller.  Typically, I
juts compensate in FTF games by demanding rapid decisions.  I don't let the
players consider and plan.

"You are taking fire RIGHT NOW!  What do you do?  TOO SLOW, they have you
zero'd.  You're hit."
>=20
> We want a weapon, vehicle, and ship design system that is a
> gearhead's delight...

I like to design vehicles, but when it comes to game time, I want the same
as above.  Simple rules.  Something with some detail, but the goal is role
playing, not minutae.
>=20
> Oh yeah - don't forget the elaborate Naval logistics and
> shipbuilding capacity rules...
>=20
> And we want Loren to write a History of the Imperium - to
> settle all those old canon arguments about dates,
> motivations, etc.

Hey, if I don't like canon, or it interferes with a good plot device, it's
gone.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 19:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Aug 13 18:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Beanstalks in 15 years!
In-Reply-To: <02081315333101.02574@avlendris>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22DB6@USCHM203>
 <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22DB6@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020813214526.02abb008@192.168.0.1>

At 03:33 PM 8/13/2002 +0100, Brian Caball wrote:
>Here's a link to a story linked from Slashdot, about a seattle company who
>propose to build a beanstalk in 15 years, at a cost of $10 billion.
>http://www.nationalpost.com/search/site/story.asp?id=B5C92B3D-A714-4F67-B36A-89F43CB4E588 
>
>People seem to be taking them very seriously indeed! They say they'll only be
>able to shift ~5 tonnes of cargo at a time, however....
>How easy would it be to build a whole bunch of beanstalks and not just one?

Once the first one is built, and it's getting payload into orbit much 
cheaper than rockets/shuttles,
more will be much easier to get funding for...



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vegetarian: An old Indian word that means "lousy hunter."
                http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 19:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Aug 13 18:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <B97E8157.69711%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020813085544.017c8008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020813214755.02834008@192.168.0.1>

At 09:26 AM 8/13/2002 -0700, Tod Glenn wrote:
>on 8/13/02 5:57 AM, Mark Urbin at eclipse@urbin.net wrote:
> > At 12:28 AM 8/13/2002 -0700, J-Man wrote:
> >> Garvan Spasso?  Of the Space Scourge?
> > Garvan Spasso was Captain of the Lamia.
> > You would want somebody weasel like to play him
>Steve Buscemi?

Ya, good choice.  Him or Paul Begala.




---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"[I will] totally dismantle every intelligence agency
in this country by piece, nail by nail, brick by
brick" -- Ron Dellums, D-Calif, 1993, after House
Democratic Caucus elected him chairman of the
House Armed Services Committee.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 19:51:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Aug 13 18:51:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Aramis/LLellewyloly questions
Message-ID: <3D59B639.F8009318@mail.cswnet.com>

Paging Phill Webb
>>Hey Dan do you think you could do Aramis as of 1106?
>Hmmm. Aramis is a little out of the way for me. 
>I'll do it for 60 quadloos. You got 60 quadloos?

I have most of the tax returns for Aramis subsector done.
Im missing some data on Jesedipere 3001 Aramis/Sp Marches.
Mainly the extended stats eg pop multiple, # of gas giants,
# of asteroids, and # and type of stars. This is missing in
Spinward Marches Campaign book.  ?:(

Imperial Forces have initial naval builds of MCr 3,000,000+
Junidy Navy is massive; initial builds of MCr 11,000,000+
This is more than the rest of the Aramis subsector, Regina subsector,
and Lanth subsector combined.
The rest of the systems are pretty minor.

Since Junidy has been mentioned, does anyone know if the LLellewyloly
require different sized staterooms? Is there anything that might be
different about ships used by the LLellewyloly?

By the way, I havn't recieved my Quadloos yet. If you can get me the
info on Jesedipere and email the 60 Quadloos, I'll get right on those
navy ships. Until then I've gotta build a TT-13 and a TF-15 ship for
Lunion and Regina.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 19:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 13 18:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <173.cf1a5bd.2a8b12da@aol.com>

 >Apparently, something political.  If you wanted to deal with real economic
 >effects, you'd want to figure victory points based on the GWP of the 
captured
 >worlds, which basically means the Zhodani win if they capture one high-pop
 >world (Jewell, Efate, whatever).

Why?  Jewell is a major world, but it only has 1% of the Spinward March's 
population, and only about 2% of its industrial capacity.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 19:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Aug 13 18:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Mail readers (was Re: Rockballs and Economy)
In-Reply-To: <25filuoupvi592klp5abl9iddncdg024o2@4ax.com>
References: <20020813162403.2871.36501.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <20020813162403.2871.36501.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020813215649.00ce5368@192.168.0.1>

At 01:10 PM 8/13/2002 -0400, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
>On Tue, 13 Aug 2002 09:24:03 -0700, "Angus McDonald" <angus@dancrai.com>
>wrote:
> >>>>
> >And _please_ trim the tails of your posts:-)
> ><<<
> >Sorry about that, one of the disadvantages of using Lotus Notes as an
> >email program is that it doesn't quote very nicely, the email you're
> >replying to is hidden in one line of text (of course there is the
> >advantage of hardly ever needing to worry about the latest Outlook email
> >virus).
>Well, if you have the option, I might suggest getting a copy of Fort Agent
>from http://www.forteinc.com - it quotes nicely, and also isn't susceptible
>to email viruses.  US$29.

Or Eudora <http://www.eudora.com/>, small ad window in the free version.
Good filtering and mailbox functions.  It can handle multiple accounts too.
I've been using it for years.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 20:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Aug 13 19:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <20020813184731.57FBA2793F@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <Your message of "Tue, 13 Aug 2002 09:22:34 PDT." <B97E805A.69710%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020813215937.027fc008@192.168.0.1>

At 10:20 AM 8/13/2002 -0700, Douglas R Glatz wrote:
>hmmm... If I might be so bold as to suggest:
>Lucas Trask - once, my preference would have been for Christopher Lambert,
>about the time he first portrayed Highlander, but today I would like to see
>Hugo Weaving (LOTR, Matrix).

Hmmm...interesting choice.  At first glance, very good...
I still expect watch LotR and expect Hugo Weaving to say,
"Do you hear that Mr. Frodo?  It is the sound of your impending doom."

>Harkaman - Hugh Jackman (played Wolverine in X-men) or Viggo Mortensen 
>(played
>Aragorn in LOTR).

Mortensen, definitely Mortensen out of those two.

>Elaine - Julia Stiles

Perhaps.  She gets killed in the first 10 minutes anyway...ok perhaps some 
ghost images that only Trask sees later on.

>Valkenhaven (sp? - it's been a while)  there is just something about him that
>screams Harrison Ford (starts of grizzled, cleans up good)

Ya...sound good.

>Garvin Spasso - Wallace Shawn (Vizzini in the Princess Bride)

Nah...save him for some offical on Marduk.

Buscemi or Paul Begala or Spasso.

Hmmm...Buscemi as Andray Dunnan...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"I fear all I have done is awakened a sleeping giant and filled him with
a terrible resolve." --Admiral Yamamoto after the bombing of Pearl Harbor
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 20:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Aug 13 19:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lanth subsector navies IMTU
Message-ID: <3D59BA6B.F1219713@mail.cswnet.com>

>>>Hey Dan do you think you could do Aramis as of 1106?
>> Hmmm. Aramis is a little out of the way for me. 
>> I'll do it for 60 quadloos. You got 60 quadloos?
>Would you settle for a cargo hold of prime Groat breeding stock from 
>Focaline? Oh and I'll throw in 10 tons of manure to sweeten the deal.

Sorry, but I've had to deal with 12 crates of Uncle Gani's "homegrown"
Corn Syrup that got dumped on me from a certain Groat loving person.
This same person also ran off with a female NPC of mine. So I'm not very
trusting of anything Groat right now. 60 quadloos is my offer, take it
or leave it.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 20:11:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Aug 13 19:11:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <3D595D31.4000502@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEHPIMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020813085544.017c8008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020813220852.00cda060@192.168.0.1>

At 12:25 PM 8/13/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
>>At 12:28 AM 8/13/2002 -0700, J-Man wrote:
>>>Garvan Spasso?  Of the Space Scourge?
>>Garvan Spasso was Captain of the Lamia.
>>You would want somebody weasel like to play him
>Billy Bob Thornton

This is Space Viking, not Space Hillbilly. :-)
Good actor though...perhaps as the King of Tradetown...


>or Steve Buschemi...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 20:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 13 19:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] working trade rules
Message-ID: <c9.26a3091f.2a8b169c@aol.com>

 >>  >The sad fact is that Traveller, for all of
 >>  >being a game about "merchants and mercenaries", has NEVER had working 
 >> trade
 >>  >rules.
 >>
 >>The CT rules are more than sufficient, if you speculate and have just a
 >>little bit of luck.  Outside of that they are impossible.
 >
 >For my trade rules I've always used a slightly modified and expanded set of 
 >the Metagaming Microgame by Greg Costikyan called "Trailblazer - The Game 
 >of Exploitation Among the Stars." If you can find it, it's a decent 
 >addition to any campaign.

Thanks, I'll look it up.  But the whole project seems unrealistic.  Traveller 
is an RPG -- it _is_ about merchants and mercenaries, but it is _not_ about 
trade or war.  To take a trade system involving billions of people each 
making dozens of economic and scientific and political and religious 
decisions every day for decades, and attempt to reduce all of this to a few 
formulae, is I think futile.  If it were that easy then the Soviet Union 
would still be around and would be an economic powerhouse.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 20:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Aug 13 19:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <80.1fe84563.2a8af0fb@cs.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020813222020.0212fdf8@192.168.0.1>

At 07:32 PM 8/13/2002 -0400, Damage169@cs.com wrote:
>Tod Glenn writes:
> > on 8/13/02 5:57 AM, Mark Urbin at eclipse@urbin.net wrote:
> > > At 12:28 AM 8/13/2002 -0700, J-Man wrote:
> > >> Garvan Spasso?  Of the Space Scourge?
> > > Garvan Spasso was Captain of the Lamia.
> > > You would want somebody weasel like to play him
> > Steve Buscemi?
>Nah, Gary Oldman.

I'd save Gary Oldman for Nevil Ormm;

"The face of the slightly taller man who stood at his [Andray Dunnan] 
shoulder was paperwhite, expressionless, with a black beard."
"His name was Nevil Ormm; nobody was quite sure whence he had come, and he 
was Dunnan's henchman and constant companion."



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
And, isn't sanity really just a one trick pony anyway? I mean, all you get
is one trick: rational thinking. But when you're good and crazy, ooo hoo
hoo, the sky's the limit! - The Tick  http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 20:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Tue Aug 13 19:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <200208140119.MSJ03121@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020813212807.00ac1d20@minn.net>

At 09:19 PM 8/13/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>Or is it just gearheadedness?
>
>So, we want trade rules that are as comprehensive as the old 
>logistics rules in that SPI game "Campaign For North 
>Africa"...
>
>We want small arms combat rules as complicated and detailed 
>as possible... to cover all of our possible RL experience...
>
>We want a weapon, vehicle, and ship design system that is a 
>gearhead's delight...
>
>Oh yeah - don't forget the elaborate Naval logistics and 
>shipbuilding capacity rules...


There's a lot to be said for the concept of "quick and dirty."


>And we want Loren to write a History of the Imperium - to 
>settle all those old canon arguments about dates, 
>motivations, etc.


Why? we'd only find new holes to figt...er...have discussions about.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 20:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Aug 13 19:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economics
In-Reply-To: <20020814103258.B21297@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <02081221130903.00595@linux>
 <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
 <02081114275201.00604@linux>
 <20020812075652.A15923@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <02081221130903.00595@linux>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020813222458.00ce3870@192.168.0.1>

At 10:32 AM 8/14/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>richard honeycutt wrote:
[snip]
> > That leaves Pocket Empires. It is the best rules to model
> > interstellar economies available in that it was designed for that
> > purpose IMHO. I will base my arguments on data generated from it.
>Is this set of rules available anymore?  I haven't been able to find
>them.  Also, is it designed to model the Imperium around 1120?

I'm pretty sure my LGS has a copy or two.  If you are interested, I can 
send you their phone number.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 20:43:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Aug 13 19:43:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <B97EFEA0.697A9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3D5A2DED.19601.327E0C@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020813222725.02158008@192.168.0.1>

At 06:21 PM 8/13/2002 -0700, Tod Glenn wrote:
>on 8/13/02 3:16 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:
> > On 13 Aug 2002 at 9:01, Douglas Berry wrote:
> >> LOL!  When we screwed up and "died," we went to Hell.  In Hell, soldiers
> >> spent time in the front-leaning rest position (the starting position for
> >> the push-up, for you civilians) and got lectured on our failings as
> >> soldiers.
> > Ah, The Position. I remember The Position well. I also remember
> > cleaning a nice light concrete parade ground with a small brush at high
> > noon on mid-summers day, with a corporal (sitting smoking in the shade)
> > watching and ready to put the boot into anyone who fainted.
>I remember the "Dying Cockroach"  (Doug?).  You lay on you back with feet
>and arms pointed upward.  Periodically, and for the benefit of those
>passing, you announce "I am a dying cockroach!" followed convulsing of the
>arms and legs.  After a while, it become quite unpleasant to hold you arms
>and particularly your feet up.

Ahhh...the joys of being an Army Brat (tm).
My brother & I learned quickly as young lads that standing in the corner 
was "BAD"!

18" away from the corner, feet shoulder width apart, back straight leaning 
forward with your forehead tucked in the corner.

There are some interesting ob-travs here both for training and local law 
levels/gov types.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 20:47:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Tue Aug 13 19:47:00 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: High Tech Movie Making
In-Reply-To: <127.154ad830.2a8b0295@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000001c2433c$af067550$6501a8c0@Darla>

> 
> Another film that surprised me was U-576 (or whatever the title was .
. .
> ).

Wasn't that U-90210?

TWB


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 21:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Aug 13 20:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] working on Junidy fleet
Message-ID: <3D59C8D5.D3EAA22F@mail.cswnet.com>

A very preliminary look at a ship from Junidy...

Ship: LLeelluuloly
Class:SB9/LLeelluuloly
Type: System Monitor
Architect: Dan Roseberry
Tech Level: 9

USP
        SB9-J1036C3-970000-00607-0 MCr 12,292.686 9.997 KTons
Bat Bear             1       4 5   Crew: 105
Bat                  1       4 5   TL: 9
Cargo: 500.900 Frozen Watch Emergency Low: 63 Fuel: 1,199.640 EP:
599.820 Agility: 3 Shipboard Security Detail: 10
Craft: 8 x 20T Lifeboat
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 2 x Model/3fib Computers

Architects Fee: MCr 122.293   Cost in Quantity: MCr 9,846.829

Detailed Description
HULL
9,997.000 tons standard, 139,958.000 cubic meters, Needle/Wedge
Configuration

CREW
15 Officers, 90 Ratings

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 3G Manuever, Power plant-6, 599.820 EP, Agility 3

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/3fib Computer
2 Model/3fib Backup Computers

HARDPOINTS
9 100-ton bays, 9 Hardpoints

ARMAMENT
4 100-ton Particle Accelerator Bays (Factor-6), 5 100-ton Missile Bays
(Factor-7)

DEFENCES
9 Triple Sandcaster Turrets organised into 1 Battery (Factor-7),
Armoured Hull (Factor-9)

CRAFT
8 20.000 ton Lifeboats (Crew of 1, Cost of MCr 7.925)

FUEL
1,199.640 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 56 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
55.0 Staterooms, 53 Low Berths, 63 Emergency Low Berths, 500.900 Tons
Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 12,351.579 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 122.293), MCr
9,783.429 in Quantity, plus MCr 63.400 of Carried Craft

CONSTRUCTION TIME
160 Weeks Singly, 128 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
Standard ship. Don't know if I need to expand the staterooms for
LLeellewyloly's comfort.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 21:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Aug 13 20:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020813215937.027fc008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020814031543.79331.qmail@web20905.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> wrote:
> At 10:20 AM 8/13/2002 -0700, Douglas R Glatz wrote:
> >hmmm... If I might be so bold as to suggest:
> >Lucas Trask - once, my preference would have been
> for Christopher Lambert,
> >about the time he first portrayed Highlander, but
> today I would like to see
> >Hugo Weaving (LOTR, Matrix).
> 
> Hmmm...interesting choice.  At first glance, very
> good...
> I still expect watch LotR and expect Hugo Weaving to
> say,
> "Do you hear that Mr. Frodo?  It is the sound of
> your impending doom."

While I loved Mr. Weaving in Matrix, I thought he
severely ruined the caliber of acting in LOTR.  The
others were very good, but I just couldn't see him as
an Elf.  He seemed to be Agent Smith, not an elf.

Just my opinion.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 22:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 13 21:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traditional Schools
Message-ID: <45.1bafadb7.2a8b2f89@aol.com>

>But is there a single Naval 
>Academy per sector, or subsector? 

What I'm going to say in Nobles is that there are several academies, 
_roughly_ one per sector, _normally_ at the Depot for that sector. There is 
also at least one "School Afloat" academy held with a major fleet.

Also for Nobles, I'm looking at a sidebar-type essay on a couple of forms of 
chess in the far future. 


I've kind of got chess on the brain lately -- for many years, I have wanted a 
set of the Lewis Island Chessmen* but I was unable to afford any of the resin 
replicas available (the British Museum Store wants 150 Pounds for a full 
set). I recently ran across a company that makes latex rubber molds for use 
with resin or plaster, and discovered they make two different sets, with 
slightly different designs. I bit for both sets of molds like a largemouth 
bass, and when I'm not working on GT: NOBLES, I'm casting the little suckers 
in an artist grade anhydrous gypsum cement (which is to plaster of paris as 
concrete is to styrofoam). 

I should explain that I suck at chess, but the challenge of painting plaster 
so it looks like ivory appeals to the modeler in me, and the pieces are so 
freaking cool it isn't even funny. 

LKW


* 70+ chess pieces discovered in 1831 on the Island of Lewis in the Hebrides, 
sixty some odd are now in the British Museum. They were carved from walrus 
ivory, possibly in Iceland, and date from the 1100s or so, and are thus 
represent the oldest complete set in Europe. The most famous one is the 
"shield-biter" rook (Scandanavian chess sets had a soldier called a Warder 
instead of the "castle" type rook) depicting a berserk-type biting the edge 
of his shield), but the "queen with drinking horn" and the "Beardless King" 
are also famous. They make a guest appearance in HARRY POTTER in the 
lunchroom scene (not the giant chess room scene), and you can find pics by 
Googling for "Lewis Island Chessmen".

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 22:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Aug 13 21:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <200208140115.MSJ02824@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208140115.MSJ02824@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <1029298539.3d59d96b88760@www.paradise.net.nz>

Quoting "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>:

> "Rupert Boleyn" asks
> >How far forward and back.
> 
> The danger space in the Basic rules extends from 100 m in 
> front of the target to 100 m behind. The width of the beaten 
> zone depends on the gunner's desire. The minimum arc for an 
> L7A2 (FN MAG) at 800 yards is roughly 20 m (that's the 
> narrowest you can fire 7 rounds in 2 seconds into, based on 
> the charts). Two guns could easily cover an area 40m wide. 
> The gunner may opt for a wider arc, but that is usually 
> counterproductive. It's best to track the bursts left and 
> right rather that to spread a single burst over a wider area.

Seven rounds in two seconds? That's seriously slow - cyclic is over 20 rounds 
in that time, and I'd expect 2-3 6-10 round bursts in that time from a MAG set 
up the the SF (sustained fire) role.
 
> >I never noticed any recoil problem with a MAG on its tripod.
> 
> The tripod eliminates the recoil in PCCS. A proper gunner 
> can compensate for the recoil if you're not using the tripod.

Ah.
 
> Theoretically, using the Blind Fire rules and the automatic 
> fire rules, you could fire blind using the T&E mechanism at 
> night if you had presighted on a particular area during 
> daylight hours. If the target is stupid enough to stay in 
> the area, you can actually hit people.
> 
> It's also possible in the advanced rules to have a spotter 
> help you out while you fire. I'm imagining how bad things 
> would be if some experienced NCO was spotting for two FN MAG 
> gunners close by.

Properly set up an SF det (detachment - two guns) would have a spotter, and a 
surveyed position, fire arcs, etc. - just like artillery and with that sort of 
prep indirect fire into supposed blind spots is indeed practical. We do 
practise this sort of thing, as it's something that can rachically improve the 
capabilities of light infantry, especially in defence.

-- 
Rupert Boleyn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 22:20:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Aug 13 21:20:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <B97EFEA0.697A9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B97EFEA0.697A9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <1029298765.3d59da4dbdc18@www.paradise.net.nz>

Quoting Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>:

> I remember the "Dying Cockroach" (Doug?). You lay on you back with feet
> and arms pointed upward. Periodically, and for the benefit of those
> passing, you announce "I am a dying cockroach!" followed convulsing of
> the
> arms and legs. After a while, it become quite unpleasant to hold you
> arms
> and particularly your feet up.

That's new to me. One of our corporals had this neat idea of making recruits 
adopt the position and then extend their right arm in front of them holding an 
M16A1 while also holding their left leg in the air. You had to hold this 
position for five minutes or suffer even more punishment. IIRC the only recruit 
to ever manage this was a tiny woman. Most crapped out after about three 
minutes.

-- 
Rupert Boleyn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 22:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Aug 13 21:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <1029298765.3d59da4dbdc18@www.paradise.net.nz>
Message-ID: <B97F2A78.697FA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/13/02 9:19 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:

> That's new to me. One of our corporals had this neat idea of making recru=
its
> adopt the position and then extend their right arm in front of them holdi=
ng an
> M16A1 while also holding their left leg in the air. You had to hold this
> position for five minutes or suffer even more punishment. IIRC the only
> recruit=20
> to ever manage this was a tiny woman. Most crapped out after about three
> minutes.


One of our DIs was particularly found of low crawling, or rather, having th=
e
platoon low crawl.  This involved putting on a full rucksack first, then
crawling around on the crushed aggregate between the barracks for long
periods of time.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 22:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Aug 13 21:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
Message-ID: <200208140433.MSR00141@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Rupert Boleyn says
>Seven rounds in two seconds? That's seriously slow - cyclic 
>is over 20 rounds in that time, and I'd expect 2-3 6-10 
>round bursts in that time from a MAG set 
>up the the SF (sustained fire) role.

That's if you only pull the trigger once.  You could pull it 
more times in a combat round.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 22:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Tue Aug 13 21:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEICIMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <000801c2434d$095d56d0$6401a8c0@GOCA>

Hmm..the ship decal you mentioned sound's like Honest Horris's "Yo-Yo".

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of John-Martin
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 23:58
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Casting Space Viking



At the same time he is an intellectual, comfortable in loooonnnggggggggg
dissertations on history at the drop of a space helmet.  In his day,
Rutger Hauer might been a good Harkaman.  

I don't have the book at hand but Long would be good as Grav -- the head

of the Space Viking bunch on plant when the Nemesis spaces in.




Garvan Spasso?  Of the Space Scourge?

>>>>>>>>

Could well be.  I'm relying on memory here.  

I seem to recall a ladies hand dangling something, but don't 
quote me.

One of the better scenes in the whole book is a Space Viking 
questioning someone.

"See this, it's a verifier, it turns blue if you lie.  If you lie, 
I will make sure you don't lie again."  he lifts the butt of his gun.

jml

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TML@travellercentral.com
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 22:42:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Angus McDonald)
Date: Tue Aug 13 21:42:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Mail readers (was Re: Rockballs and Economy)
Message-ID: <OFE15F0EAB.EA06A487-ONCA256C15.000DE3A6@dnsalias.com>

>>>
>Well, if you have the option, I might suggest getting a copy of Fort=E9=20
Agent
>from http://www.forteinc.com - it quotes nicely, and also isn't susceptible
>to email viruses.  US$29.

Or Eudora <http://www.eudora.com/>, small ad window in the free version.
Good filtering and mailbox functions.  It can handle multiple accounts=20
too.
I've been using it for years.
<<<

Sorry guys, this is my work account and Notes is a tried and trusted=20
friend (not to mention runs half our business).

---  from  ---
Angus McDonald
www.falkayn.com

--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/html
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 22:44:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Aug 13 21:44:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <B97EFEA0.697A9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3D5A2DED.19601.327E0C@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020813212750.009dd480@mindspring.com>

At 06:21 PM 8/13/02 -0700, you wrote:
>I remember the "Dying Cockroach"  (Doug?).

*twitch*

Damn it!  All those years of therapy undone.  I had just managed to forget 
the Dying Cockroach, thank you...


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 22:44:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Aug 13 21:44:30 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <173.cf1a5bd.2a8b12da@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020813212951.009e3bc0@mindspring.com>

At 09:56 PM 8/13/02 -0400, you wrote:
>  >Apparently, something political.  If you wanted to deal with real economic
>  >effects, you'd want to figure victory points based on the GWP of the
>captured
>  >worlds, which basically means the Zhodani win if they capture one high-pop
>  >world (Jewell, Efate, whatever).
>
>Why?  Jewell is a major world, but it only has 1% of the Spinward March's
>population, and only about 2% of its industrial capacity.

The three rules of real estate: location, Location, LOCATION!

Jewell is an industrial world pressed right up on the Zhodani 
Consulate.  Take it out, and the next serious threat is Efate.. beyond 
that, the high-tech hi-pop worlds are a good distance to the rear.  Jewell 
has to be reduced in order to secure a buffer zone.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 22:47:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Tue Aug 13 21:47:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020813222020.0212fdf8@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <000901c2434d$c0863980$6401a8c0@GOCA>

Wait a sec..I was remembering wrongly here..Garvan Spasso's ship was the
"Lamia".  Garvan is that greedy little SOB they shipped out to the Duke
of Didrecksberg in hopes he'd get himself killed.  Space Scourge's
skipper was just down on his luck and later picked himself back up after
the raid on Beowulf.

OK, who plays Lady Elaine Karvall-Trask?  Nikkoley Trask?  Lucas Trask?
Sesar Karvall?  Guatt Kurby?  Sharyl Renner?  Prince Simon Bentrick?
Lady Alverath?  King Mikal?  Rovard Grauffis?  Etc etc

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Mark Urbin
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 19:24
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Casting Space Viking

At 07:32 PM 8/13/2002 -0400, Damage169@cs.com wrote:
>Tod Glenn writes:
> > on 8/13/02 5:57 AM, Mark Urbin at eclipse@urbin.net wrote:
> > > At 12:28 AM 8/13/2002 -0700, J-Man wrote:
> > >> Garvan Spasso?  Of the Space Scourge?
> > > Garvan Spasso was Captain of the Lamia.
> > > You would want somebody weasel like to play him
> > Steve Buscemi?
>Nah, Gary Oldman.

I'd save Gary Oldman for Nevil Ormm;

"The face of the slightly taller man who stood at his [Andray Dunnan] 
shoulder was paperwhite, expressionless, with a black beard."
"His name was Nevil Ormm; nobody was quite sure whence he had come, and
he 
was Dunnan's henchman and constant companion."



------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
And, isn't sanity really just a one trick pony anyway? I mean, all you
get
is one trick: rational thinking. But when you're good and crazy, ooo hoo
hoo, the sky's the limit! - The Tick  http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
---


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 23:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Tue Aug 13 22:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveler Minatures
Message-ID: <200208140527.g7E5RLk14117@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Mark Preston <mark@magpiesnest.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Traveler Minatures
...
> > Hello Everyone: AT one time RAFM manufactured a bunch of Traveler
...
>I have some superb Trav miniatures, nicely boxed in standard 
>Traveller-style boxes (LBB-style) but I don't think they are available 

  Those nice boxes (Jim Burns cover art - yeah!) were UK only (?)*
for the GW 15mm's; RAFM manufactured them in Canada (& the US?) 
under license and sold them in little baggies - I scored a stock
of them from NY last year, and they were RAFM baggies, too.

  *did anyone buy them in the boxes in the US, rather than picking
them up while overseas?

>any more. I had been planning to get some moulding poly and duplicate 
>them, but if anyone finds they are still available, please let me know 
>since I wouldn't want to break anyone's copyright on them.

  The copyright is GW's, although the Trav-specific stuff likely
couldn't be re-released w/o a license from FarFuture? IAC, no one
at GW cares to ever re-release them; the masters are probably in
storage somewhere - heck, maybe Foundry has `em through Ansell?

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 23:48:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ken Murphy)
Date: Tue Aug 13 22:48:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style
Message-ID: <F18746DYF9YdiuVls1D0001e7c0@hotmail.com>

Previously I'd asked about the Dragon with the Disintegrator article:
> >
> > >   Does anyone know what I'm talking about and have
> > access to this
> > > article, and if so, could I get a copy?
> >
>Phill, I have issue 95 and It's a one page article
>that has no charts and little in the way of
>quantitative values of what the weapons listed might
>do. I could sell it to you,BUT in my opinion, this one
>page article isnt' worth it. If you want,I could type
>the page out for everyone on the list to read in
>installments. Will anyone second this motion?

   Well, I know *my* vote would be to receive the info; in installments 
would be just fine. By all means consider this a seconded motion :)
  -Ken-

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 02:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug 14 01:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1029256363.5566.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020813123534.B18707@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1029256363.5566.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020814181100.A22124@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:

> As it happens, I tend to agree, but there's a fundamental problem
> here: high trade means a lot of transfer of ideas and people, and
> would tend to reduce the variation between worlds in Traveller.

Yes, it would tend to.  Not nearly as much as it has between nations
in our world though.  Weeks to months minimum communication time,
non-human sentient races, and greatly varied environments are all
diversifying factors that are not present in our world.


> Based on the extreme variations which can occur, trade must be
> fairly minor in the Imperium.

I'm not so sure that reasoning backward from "diversity" to "little
trade" makes for a strong argument.  If anything, diversity should
increase the benefits of trade, and there are plenty of explanations
for why the diversity remains.

I'm particularly uncertain of the benefits of undercutting the entire
foundation of the Imperium's reason for existence.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 02:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Wed Aug 14 01:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style
Message-ID: <002301c2436b$5287fa40$c0443b41@customer>

> Previously I'd asked about the Dragon with the Disintegrator article:
> > >
> > > >   Does anyone know what I'm talking about and have
> > > access to this
> > > > article, and if so, could I get a copy?
> > >
> >Phill, I have issue 95 and It's a one page article
> >that has no charts and little in the way of
> >quantitative values of what the weapons listed might
> >do. I could sell it to you,BUT in my opinion, this one
> >page article isn't worth it. If you want,I could type
> >the page out for everyone on the list to read in
> >installments. Will anyone second this motion?
>
>    Well, I know *my* vote would be to receive the info; in installments
> would be just fine. By all means consider this a seconded motion :)
>   -Ken-

Ken, I have issue 95 too.  In your initial post you mentioned
disintegrators.  The article, Antimissiles and Roundshot doesn't have
disintegrators in it.  It covers:

Minefields
Tractor/pressor beams
Solid-shot weapons
Antimissile clusters
Beam weapon superchargers

Now issue 108 has an article High Tech and Beyond.  This article covers
disintegrators and other TL 16 to 21 technology.  It's three pages with some
charts.

Of course MT, TNE, T4 and GT, I'm sure, cover disintegrators.  Though the
108 article WAS written for CT.  I could serialize this article for the
list, assuming anyone's interested and there's no one else with access to
that article who has more time on their hands than me.

John Scarlett
-------------------------
I'd be unstoppable, if I just had the energy to get started.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 02:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Wed Aug 14 01:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lanth subsector navies IMTU
In-Reply-To: <3D593484.ED98D834@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPMELPEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Having too many SDBs, not a problem, just rule that they are not yet
completed, or are in for refit, or as is normally the case both. As an
example take our Anzac class frigates, some are still being built, some are
in service and some are back in dry dock having a major keel problem dealt
with. In fact with the various movements of this class I have lost track on
just how many of the class are currently built.

Alternatively have the PCs command a SDB squadron. Based on my players you
won't have that excess for very long!

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Roseberry
Sent: Wednesday, 14 August 2002 12:32 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Lanth subsector navies IMTU


Rupert Boleyn asks:
>One question - Why do the system navies have so many ships and seem >to
lack monitors, SDBs and other non-jump capable vessels?

Mainly because I wanted to follow the deployments used in the FFW game.
The only SDB's in Lanth sub. are in FFW are at Extolay, Equus, and
Treece. Treece is actually only supposed to have 5 SDBs, so the 20 odd
BB8 types actually makes Treece more powerfull than it is in the game.

The other problem which you don't mention, is where is the auxiliarys?
Treece should have had some auxiliarys, at least some tankers.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 02:21:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Wed Aug 14 01:21:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Lanth subsector navies IMTU
In-Reply-To: <3D5A2EE3.6831.363FDC@localhost>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPOELPEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

IMTU In times of emergency the Imperium authorises the requisitioning of
shipping for the purpose of transport, tankers, relief operations etc. What
may not be known is that this does not necessarily apply only to subsidised
merchants. Also planetary governments may have the same powers under their
imperial membership charters. This may also mean the crew is impressed into
service for the term of the emergency.

Whether the ships owners are compensated for this use or indemnified against
the loss of the vessel is covered by a different government department
(Treasury) try getting money out of a Treasury department!

Several adventure threads leap out at me here. Such as the PCs are the
owners/crew of a vessel just requisitioned for use as a convoy or merchant
patrol vessel. (High risk that!) But could be exciting.

Antony


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Rupert Boleyn
Sent: Wednesday, 14 August 2002 6:20 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Lanth subsector navies IMTU


On 13 Aug 2002 at 11:32, Roseberry wrote:

> Mainly because I wanted to follow the deployments used in the FFW game.
> The only SDB's in Lanth sub. are in FFW are at Extolay, Equus, and
> Treece. Treece is actually only supposed to have 5 SDBs, so the 20 odd
> BB8 types actually makes Treece more powerfull than it is in the game.

Ok, that's fair enough.

> The other problem which you don't mention, is where is the auxiliarys?
> Treece should have had some auxiliarys, at least some tankers.

There's that, too. I assumed that they'd be aquired by activating
reserve vessels, commandeering them, etc. IOW taking them out of the
merchant 'marine'.

--
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 02:21:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Wed Aug 14 01:21:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Land grab webring
In-Reply-To: <02081217425801.00595@linux>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPAEMAEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Hey,

I voted in favour too!

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of richard honeycutt
Sent: Tuesday, 13 August 2002 5:43 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Land grab webring



> >>Any interest in a webring of landgrab sites?
> >
> >Yes!  It would encourage me to get a few planets put together and on the
> > web.
>
> Ok, that's two yes votes (besides me).  I'm willing to set it up and
> administer it.
> It might be nice to have the home page as the downport landgrab page.
>
	Add another vote for me. 

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 02:22:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug 14 01:22:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <200208140119.MSJ03121@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208140119.MSJ03121@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020814182045.B22124@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> So, we want trade rules that are as comprehensive as the old 
> logistics rules in that SPI game "Campaign For North 
> Africa"...

Haven't seen it, but I'd probably be happier with far more detailed
trade rules than exist.  Good solid sociological and macroeconomic
rules would be useful too, for those empire-spanning generational
games.

If necessary, at the extreme expense of ...

> We want small arms combat rules

... for which I care not one whit.


> We want a weapon, vehicle, and ship design system that is a
> gearhead's delight...

Hey, don't forget genetic engineering, AI programming, oh, and a
Theory of Everything that fully explains jumpspace, reactionless
drives and meson communicators. :)


> And we want Loren to write a History of the Imperium - to settle all
> those old canon arguments about dates, motivations, etc.

A detailed and self-consistent set of rules for NPC psychology in
general would be handy, including motivations, internal conflicts,
biases, thought patterns, and personality traits that aren't simple
advantages or disadvantages.  Non-human psychology as well, of course.

Well, where is it?  I want it yesterday!


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 02:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug 14 01:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208131837090.737-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
References: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMELDIMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net> <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208131837090.737-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <20020814182158.C22124@freeman.little-possums.net>

Azalais Malfoy wrote:
> I prefer letting the role-playing take care of trade issues, and I
> hate math and prolonged dice-rolling.

I don't care much for dice-rolling, but I *love* math.  The more the
better :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 02:23:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 14 01:23:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Lanth subsector navies IMTU
Message-ID: <1ce3981cf74c.1cf74c1ce398@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>
Date: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 7:40 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Lanth subsector navies IMTU

> Phill Webb asks:
> >Hey Dan do you think you could do Aramis as of 1106?
> 
> Hmmm. Aramis is a little out of the way for me. 
> 
> I'll do it for 60 quadloos. You got 60 quadloos?

If not, you can get some from the Temple ov thee Lemur:

http://totl.net/VCash/set.php3

BTW, I don't recall if I mentioned this previously on the list, but 
TotL's Human Virus Scanner features the Imperial Sunburst as a memetic 
virus....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 02:25:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug 14 01:25:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <B97F02B7.697AF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200208140119.MSJ03121@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <B97F02B7.697AF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020814182442.D22124@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> "You are taking fire RIGHT NOW!  What do you do?  TOO SLOW, they
> have you zero'd.  You're hit."

Ick.  I *hate* that, it makes things outside the game interfere with
the in-game events.  For instance, I'm a slow decision-maker in real
life; you would condemn all my characters to share the same trait.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 04:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Aug 14 03:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style
In-Reply-To: <20020812090622.62065.qmail@web11807.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20814.021415.5i8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>    Does anyone know what I'm talking about and have
>> access to this article, 
>> and if so, could I get a copy?
>>    Thanks in advance for any help :)
>>   -Ken Murphy-
>> 
> I have a few really old Dragons. I acquired them
> recently, and haven't really read them yet. You
> wouldn't have a clue as to which issue, or maybe the
> year of the issue?

If he can narrow that downm some of us have the CD set with all the old
Dragons on it.

BTW, I heard that they'd made similar diles from the old Little Wars
magazine available somewhere. Anybody know where?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 04:01:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Aug 14 03:01:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <m3bs87r262.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20814.002653.3g0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> So far, the official numbers seem to indicate that there's not an
> awful lot of trade in relative terms.  This is not awfully surprising:
> it's expensive to put stuff up into orbit and expensive to ship it.

Huh? What makes you think it's expensive to get stuff into orbit?

I seem to recall someone running the numbers a while back and having it
come out cheaper than shipping by rail.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 04:56:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Wed Aug 14 03:56:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style
In-Reply-To: <002301c2436b$5287fa40$c0443b41@customer>
Message-ID: <000601c24420$14d2b270$1001a8c0@sauron>

Just a quick note, no-one bother typing any Dragon articles in, I have
the Dragon CD.
If anyone wants the articles I'll cut the text and and mail it to yer.

Issue 108 has "Hi-Tech and Beyond" which is three pages and has few
tables.

The article in #95 is called "Antimissiles and Roundshot" and is on
variant ship-to-ship weapons. It's really pretty basic, and so short I
might as well dump it here.

I'll cut and paste the other one here if people don't object too much,
otherwise I'll email direct to those interested.


Antimissiles and Roundshot
Variant ship-to-ship weapons for TRAVELLER gaming
by Jefferson P. Swycaffer

The first things that the average game player does with a new game are
to learn it, to absorb it, and to play it. Then he fiddles with it. The
TRAVELLER game is one of the best games for tinkering, being built on a
bold enough and broad enough framework to support variants without
losing either playability or enjoyability.

On the other hand, the TRAVELLER game is one of the few role-playing
games actually designed with game balance clearly in mind. Book 5, High
Guard, is especially complex, offering a space combat system that is
carefully balanced. Any variant that destroys that balance cannot be a
good one.

New weapons are fun to experimentwith. What balance is best between
offensive and defensive weapons? If two ships that are both built on
offensive-intensive weapon balances enter combat, the combat will be
brief and bloody. If the ships are defensively built, the combat might
be interminable.

Of the weapons types in High Guard, the spinal mount weapons will most
often dominate the battleboard. These are terrifically powerful weapons.
Do we actually need them? If the provision for spinal mount weapons is
deleted from High Guard, the tone and pacing ofthe battles becomes more
reminiscent of a World War I or World War II naval battle. Some of the
science-fiction movie spectaculars we&#8217;ve come to love have the same feel
to their space combat. Spinal mount weapons are, for some of us,
jarring.

Some variant weapons with which toexperiment in your TRAVELLER campaigns
are given below in general form.

Minefields: Minefields can be openly planted in one turn by any missile
turret
or weapons bay that does not fire in that turn. In any subsequent turn,
the same
missile strength can be used to attack any enemy ship that closes from
long range to close range. The players must keep track of each mine
laid, eliminating them as each is used. The missile attack factor must
roll to hit and penetrate as normal.

Tractor/pressor beam: A tractor beam is a 100-ton bay weapon (Tech Level
14) that costs ten Energy Points per 1,000 tons of the ship upon which
it is mounted. A ship may, in addition to its other combats in a turn,
use a tractor beam to pull any one enemy ship of 1% or less of its own
mass from long range to close range. A pressor beam may be used to push
an enemy ship of 1% or less of the firing ship&#8217;s mass from close range
to long range. Only one tractor or pressor (and never both) may be fired
in one turn by any one ship, no matter
how many are installed. A &#8220;to hit&#8221; roll must be made on the same table
and with the same die modifiers as a laser beam weapon.

Solid-shot weapons: Though the idea may seems strange (&#8220;Shiver me
timbers, Cap&#8217;n, they&#8217;re pegging roundshot at us!&#8221;), hitting a projected
cloud of round-shot at several thousand kilometers per second is not as
funny an idea as it might sound. A solid-shot weapon would be a turret
weapon, identical in characteristics to a sandcaster. Make the &#8220;to hit&#8221;
rolls as if the weapon were an energy beam (i.e., not effective at long
range), with the added rule that any ship hit by solid shot may negate
the hit and bypass the roll on the damage tables by moving to long range
at the next range determination step.

This weapon and the tractor/pressor beam may cause affected ships to
violate the High Guard rule that states that all ships should be at the
same range from the enemy. Ships pushed or pulled by a tractor/pressor
beam or those attempting to escape a solid-shot cloud must
rejoin their fleets at the &#8220;regular&#8221; range in the next turn.

Antimissile cluster: Fired from any missile turret or bay in place of
any missile battery that does not fire ordinary missiles in that turn, a
cluster of antimissile dartlets may be unleashed with the same firing
factor as the missile battery. Incoming missiles must pene-
trate these on the Missile Attack Table as if trying to penetrate sand
or beam defenses.

Beam weapon superchargers: Since most of the energy that goes into any
beam weapon is wasted, being expelled as waste heat, dispersed photons,
and so forth, an attempt may be made to render such weapons more
efficient with some mixed results. Any energy beam or laser turret or
bay may be equipped with a supercharger.
A supercharged beam will have either a +1, +2, or +3 on the penetration
roll on the beam weapon table (but not on the &#8220;to hit&#8221; roll), with the
complication that, if the bonus value or less is rolled on a single
six-sided die, that battery is reduced one factor as if hit in combat. A
laser battery of factor 9 taking a +3 on its penetration rolls will be
reduced to factor 8 on a roll of 1, 2, or 3 on a d6.
Superchargers cost Cr 1,000,000 for each weapon so equipped, and all
weapons in a battery must be equipped with a supercharger for the
battery to fire with a bonus. No extra energy is consumed by
supercharged fire. The option is left to the player as to whether the
bonus will be +1, +2, or +3, or even no bonus in each particular turn.
Many other weapons variants are possible, but one guideline should be
kept in mind: no system should ever gain something for nothing. There
should be no &#8220;super weapons&#8221; against
which defense is not possible. Game balance is still the senior admiral
aboard
any warship.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 05:16:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Wed Aug 14 04:16:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traditional Schools
Message-ID: <memo.852139@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <45.1bafadb7.2a8b2f89@aol.com>
> >But is there a single Naval 
> >Academy per sector, or subsector? 
> 
> What I'm going to say in Nobles is that there are several academies, 
> _roughly_ one per sector, _normally_ at the Depot for that sector. 
> There is also at least one "School Afloat" academy held with a major 
> fleet.
> 
> Also for Nobles, I'm looking at a sidebar-type essay on a couple of 
> forms of chess in the far future. 
 
MTU is scattered with establishments of that kind. Many have fancy names & 
even fancier traditions. Some Nobles' offspring go to the sort of 
quasi-Military Academy schools, others go to something a bit more like an 
English Public School (Eton) - where archaic forms of dress are worn, 
bizarre sports are taken extremely seriously and subjects you'll never 
need again are studied.

You can get a basic OCS-type training just about anywhere there's a major 
military facility of the service branch you're interested in, but each 
Imperial Sector has a proper 'Academy' with all the formalities and 
traditions of a West Point or a Sandhurst. And their own unique uniform, 
at times. A band, perhaps. People who go there take a combination of 
military training & a degree, takes a 4-year term rather than the 1-year 
OCS, and are generally those intending a full military career and gunning 
for those Sky Marshal stars. Few people get there who do not attend as 
their first term (start at age 18), and it is also a prestigious 
'Instructor' posting for career military later on in life.

> I've kind of got chess on the brain lately -- for many years, I have 
> wanted a set of the Lewis Island Chessmen

Aha! Another fan of the Lewis Island Chessmen. They are rather fine :-)

A school friend had a set. She didn't even play chess, just looked at 
them. She still has them in her house in London.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 06:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Aug 14 05:03:02 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020812231518.02567c80@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20814.041409.4E2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 03:47 PM 8/12/2002 -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>In mail you write:
>> > Let's dig out my copy of the Traveller Book...TL 5
>> > c. 1900-1939   Early computers...visions of TL 9 and A percomps being 
> used
>> > to run life support systems...
>>Who say you *need* computers to run life support? It's easily doable
>>with *much* older tech than that.
>
> Not me.  But these are the sort of things they can easily pick up in trade.
> Surplus handcomps for local art work.  If they can get them, they will use 
> them.
> Even if it's just to run the numbers instead of doing 'em by hand or having 
> a room full of people with mechanical calculators.

Analog computers may be well suited to some of this. And that includes
things such as slide rules and nomograpghs.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 06:03:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Aug 14 05:03:34 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <006701c242fb$225efc30$67e84242@upstairs>
Message-ID: <20814.043437.2f4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Not exactly. They both exist as a *mixed state*. The observation
>> collapses the wave function.
>
> Sorry to barge in here, but what is the result when multiple
> simultaeneous observatios are made on the same photon? IIRC, the tools
> we'd use to record the position of the photon prevent this (kind of like
> locking it into a place/time,) but if I'm wrong about that...Is the
> photon seen as in two or more places at once?

Simultaneous is a meaningless concept in physics if you are talking
about events occuring at different locations. 

And the uncertainty principle means that (for example) observing the
position of a photon to high precision destroys the momentum
information and vice versa.

> And while I'm at it, what does the universe do with all the "unobserved"
> interactions among particles? I'm thinking that I don't properly
> understand the term observation, because when I think of observation,
> I'm thinking of a person or a tool/instrument that makes an observation
> or record of the event...

Okm the "rteality" is quantum wave functions. Which amount to "there's
a 35% probability that ot's *here*, a 64% possibility it's there, and a
1% probability it's somewhere else".

As the wave functions interacting you get spreading "waves" of
probability. That is, the probability that it was over here interacts
with the probability that some other particle was somewhere else,
leading to further probability distributions for the current and future
positions of both particles. 

Multiply that by the huge numbers of particles that are involved in
most things and it gets *really* ugly.

Once you "make an observation", you've pinned the particle down as to
it either is or is not where you "looked". With the result that any
probabilty waves for other particles that are inconsistent with that
result vanish. Ones that are consistent with it remain. 

This is properly discussed with math. And *I* am not up to it.

> I'm considering applying this to Jump space...perhaps a ship and her
> crew are in multiple places or constantly state shifting during their
> flight in Jump space.

It's not "multiple places". It's that it's only "partially" anywhere
(the probability functions) until the wave "collapses". 

The classic two-slit experiment has the two slits that a phton (or any
other particle) can go thru. If you semd a bunch of them thru, you get
interference patterns, as they act like waves when they go thru.

If you send a *single* particle, you can either detect it at one slit
or not. But if you don't try to detect it, things can happen that show
it went thru *both* slits. Sort of.

The experiments that showed it wasn't "going" to go thru one or the
other at the point it was emitted worked something like this.

The photon was sent out. Then *after* it was moving, the path to one
slit was blocked. And one detector was switched on.

There are 4 possible configurations.

Detector A on, slot A blocked
Detector A on, slot B blocked
Detector B on, slot A blocked
Detector B on, Slot B blocked

And the possible results are that either the detector that was switched
on will detector or it won't. If a photon wasn't detected, either it
went thru the other slot, or it was blocked.

If the photon was defintely headed for a particular slot at the point
it was emitted (the hidden variables theory) then the number of
detected photons for each configuration would break down a certain way.

If trying to observe it determined which slot it went thru, the numbers
would break down a different way (do a search on "Bell's Inequality").

The numbers showed that the path *wasn't* predetermined.

ps. don't hold me to the experimental description above. I almost
certainly have details wromg. But it's the general idea.


-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 06:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Aug 14 05:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1029256097.5137.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20814.050005.1Q1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
>
>> Yes, but the required *spacing* for such a bumper depends on the
>> velocity of the impactor.
>
> Actually, no it doesn't, as long as impact velocity is sufficient to 
> completely
> vaporize both objects.  If a 1 gram bead hits one gram of armor, the 
> resulting
> spray of material will be around a 45 degree cone, regardless of the actual
> speed of the impactor.

Not at near c velocities it won't.

As someone pointed out, "impact" gets more than a bit weird at those
velocities. The impactor acts more like a burst of high energy cosmic
rays, which most assuredly *don't* spread that way.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 06:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 14 05:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style
Message-ID: <262e11261c3c.261c3c262e11@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel Tackett <haegen2001@yahoo.com>
Date: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 11:49 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style

<<snips discussion of relevant Dragon article>>

 you want,I could type
> the page out for everyone on the list to read in
> installments. Will anyone second this motion?

Bad Idea [tm].  Things have barely cooled down from the _last_ copyright 
flame war last summer.... :-(



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 07:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Aug 14 06:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Mail readers (was Re: Rockballs and Economy)
In-Reply-To: <OFE15F0EAB.EA06A487-ONCA256C15.000DE3A6@dnsalias.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814092812.0267beb0@192.168.0.1>

At 12:33 PM 8/14/2002 +1000, Angus McDonald wrote:
> >Well, if you have the option, I might suggest getting a copy of Fort
>Agent
> >from http://www.forteinc.com - it quotes nicely, and also isn't susceptible
> >to email viruses.  US$29.
>Or Eudora <http://www.eudora.com/>, small ad window in the free version.
>Good filtering and mailbox functions.  It can handle multiple accounts
>too.
>I've been using it for years.
>Sorry guys, this is my work account and Notes is a tried and trusted
>friend (not to mention runs half our business).

When I worked at a Notes using company, I kept Eudora on my laptop for 
private email.
(I got quite enough work related email on Notes, thank you very much)

Now I'm at an Outlook (curse, spit, wash hands; go ahead and mock me...it 
won't be worse than having to use outlook) shop with a serious set of IT 
fascists.

Fee on them, I have my Palm i705!



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 07:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Aug 14 06:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Land grab webring
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPAEMAEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <02081217425801.00595@linux>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814093229.0290eeb0@192.168.0.1>

I think we may have a quorum...

I'll set it up this weekend and announce it here.

At 04:10 PM 8/14/2002 +0800, Antony Farrell wrote:
>Hey,
>
>I voted in favour too!
>
>Antony
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
>[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of richard honeycutt
>Sent: Tuesday, 13 August 2002 5:43 AM
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>Subject: Re: [TML] Land grab webring
>
>
>
> > >>Any interest in a webring of landgrab sites?
> > >
> > >Yes!  It would encourage me to get a few planets put together and on the
> > > web.
> >
> > Ok, that's two yes votes (besides me).  I'm willing to set it up and
> > administer it.
> > It might be nice to have the home page as the downport landgrab page.
> >
>         Add another vote for me.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 07:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Aug 14 06:35:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <20814.002653.3g0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <m3bs87r262.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814093359.01680b70@192.168.0.1>

At 12:26 AM 8/14/2002 -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
> > So far, the official numbers seem to indicate that there's not an
> > awful lot of trade in relative terms.  This is not awfully surprising:
> > it's expensive to put stuff up into orbit and expensive to ship it.
>Huh? What makes you think it's expensive to get stuff into orbit?
>I seem to recall someone running the numbers a while back and having it
>come out cheaper than shipping by rail.

Isn't the access to launch facilities a bit more limited than rail access?



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"Blend 'B', meanwhile, is a PROUD blend, defiant yet petulant...a blend
that grabs you, shakes you by the collar and cries, 'ACCEPT me, damn you,
or turn me away-BUT FOR GOD'S SAKE DON'T POLLUTE ME WITH NON-DAIRY
CREAMER!'" - Tripp Biscuit while coffee tasting.
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 07:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Aug 14 06:38:03 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in
 traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <20814.041409.4E2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020812231518.02567c80@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814093505.02630008@192.168.0.1>

At 04:14 AM 8/14/2002 -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
> > At 03:47 PM 8/12/2002 -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> >>In mail you write:
> >> > Let's dig out my copy of the Traveller Book...TL 5
> >> > c. 1900-1939   Early computers...visions of TL 9 and A percomps being
> > used
> >> > to run life support systems...
> >>Who say you *need* computers to run life support? It's easily doable
> >>with *much* older tech than that.
> > Not me.  But these are the sort of things they can easily pick up in trade.
> > Surplus handcomps for local art work.  If they can get them, they will use
> > them.
> > Even if it's just to run the numbers instead of doing 'em by hand or 
> having
> > a room full of people with mechanical calculators.
>Analog computers may be well suited to some of this. And that includes
>things such as slide rules and nomograpghs.

I think we're in violent agreement on this.

If it's a hand cranked adding machine, abacus or slide rule, all are 
available in TL 5.
This can also be done by one bright soph with a surplus TL B handcomp 
picked up in trade for a load of local artwork.



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"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 07:40:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Aug 14 06:40:04 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
Message-ID: <200208141339.MTJ01017@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson says
>Analog computers may be well suited to some of this. And 
>that includes things such as slide rules and nomograpghs.

I was surprised to find out that the Nike Hercules missile 
had an analog computer (and a rather simple one) that 
determined detonation proximity.  For a missile travelling at 
that speed, it worked rather well.  In fact, a digital 
computer trying to do the same task does a lot more "work".

Mind you, digital computers can be more easily modified (by 
writing new software) to do the task better, or to do another 
task altogether.

I've been wondering at what tech level does the quantum 
computer appear?  I have the nagging feeling that in real 
life, the quantum computer (a practical one) may appear 
before I retire.  There seems to be a huge paradigm shift 
that will take place once such a computer can be made - a 
larger change than the transition from analog to digital.

One other note - usually an analog computer is less "buggy" 
than a digital computer - but that may be because it is 
usually designed as simply as possible for a single task.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 07:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Aug 14 06:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
Message-ID: <200208141347.MTJ01845@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson says
>This is properly discussed with math. And *I* am not up to 
>it.


One of the things I dislike is an instant retreat 
into "math".  Something I've seen in Feynman's writings (as 
well as Wheeler and Einstein) is that there is a "local" 
thought experiment - and then they figure out the math.  If 
it can't be discussed in a local context, then any resulting 
math isn't going to make sense.

One of the questions I have always wondered about concerning 
the two slit experiment is the source of the interference.  

If we don't measure the photon, we get an interference 
pattern.  Even if we send only one photon through at a time.  
If we measure the photon *after* it goes through the slits, 
it takes either one slit or the other.  In any case, the 
photon has been interfered with prior to going through the 
slits - in one case to produce an interference pattern, and 
in the other case to go one way or the other.

Something is interfering with the photon.  And it's not 
something visible in the experiment.  So what is it?  Don't 
retreat into probability functions, please - those are only 
after-the-fact descriptions - not explanations of what is 
happenning.

________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 07:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Wed Aug 14 06:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style inst. 1
In-Reply-To: <F18746DYF9YdiuVls1D0001e7c0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020814135812.96594.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>

AntiMissiles and Roundshot.

THe first things that the average game player does
with a new game are to learn it to absorb it and to
play it. Then he fiddles with it. The Traveller game
is one of the best games for tinkering, being built on
a bold enough and broad enough framework to support
variants without losing either playability  or
enjoyability.
     On th other hand, the Traveller game is one of
the few role-playing games actually designed with game
balance clearly in mind. Book 5 is especially complex,
offering a space combat system that is carefully
balanced.  Any variant that destroys that balance
cannot be a good one.


=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
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HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 08:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 14 07:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <17.2cc7c4a6.2a8bc01d@aol.com>

 >>  >Apparently, something political.  If you wanted to deal with real 
economic
 >>  >effects, you'd want to figure victory points based on the GWP of the
 >>captured
 >>  >worlds, which basically means the Zhodani win if they capture one 
high-pop
 >>  >world (Jewell, Efate, whatever).
 >>
 >>Why?  Jewell is a major world, but it only has 1% of the Spinward March's
 >>population, and only about 2% of its industrial capacity.
 >
 >The three rules of real estate: location, Location, LOCATION!
 >
 >Jewell is an industrial world pressed right up on the Zhodani 
 >Consulate.  Take it out, and the next serious threat is Efate.. beyond 
 >that, the high-tech hi-pop worlds are a good distance to the rear.  Jewell 
 >has to be reduced in order to secure a buffer zone.

That's no reason to surrender the instant Jewell is lost.

And there you go again, thinking strictly in terms of Zhodane on offense, 
Imperium always and forever on passive defense.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 08:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gregory Carl Kettler)
Date: Wed Aug 14 07:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <20020814182045.B22124@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0208140920470.2949-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>

On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Timothy Little wrote:
> A detailed and self-consistent set of rules for NPC psychology in
> general would be handy, including motivations, internal conflicts,
> biases, thought patterns, and personality traits that aren't simple
> advantages or disadvantages.  Non-human psychology as well, of course.

Hmm...  I never thought of that before, but I think if something like that
were well-done it would become indispensable for every RPG ever published.

	Gregory Kettler
	"Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before."
			--Dave, KODT


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 08:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Wed Aug 14 07:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style inst. 1
In-Reply-To: <F18746DYF9YdiuVls1D0001e7c0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020814144227.37197.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>

AntiMissiles and Roundshot.

THe first things that the average game player does
with a new game are to learn it to absorb it and to
play it. Then he fiddles with it. The Traveller game
is one of the best games for tinkering, being built on
a bold enough and broad enough framework to support
variants without losing either playability  or
enjoyability.
     On th other hand, the Traveller game is one of
the few role-playing games actually designed with game
balance clearly in mind. Book 5 is especially complex,
offering a space combat system that is carefully
balanced.  Any variant that destroys that balance
cannot be a good one.
     New weapons are fun to experiment with. What
balance is best between offensive and defensive
weapons? If two ships that are both built on
offensive-intensive weapon balances a=enter combat,
the combat will be brief and bloody. If the ships are
defensively built, the combat might be interminable.
Of the weapons types in High Guard, the spinal mount
wepons will most often dominate the battleboard. The
are terrifically powerful weapons. Do we actually need
them? If the provision for spinal mount weapons is
deleted from High Guard, the tone and pacing of the
battles becomes more reminiscent of a World War I or
II naval battle.  Some of the science-fiction movie
spectaculars we've come to love have the same feel to
their space combat. Spinal mount weapons are, for some
of us , jarring
     Some variant weapons with which to experiment in
our Traveller campaigns are given below in general
form.  
     Mine fields: Minefields can be openly planted in
one turn by any missile turret or weapons bay that
does not fire in that turn. In any subsequent turn,
the same missile strength can be used to attack any
enemy ship that closes from long range to close range.
 The  players must keep track of each mine laid,
eliminating them as each is used. The missile attack
factor must roll to hit and penetrate as normal. 
     Tractor/Pressor beam: A tractor beam is a 100 ton
bay weapon (TL 14) that costs ten energy points per
1000 tons of the ship upon which it's mounted. A ship
may, in addition to its other combats in a turn,use a
tractor beam to pull any one enemy ship of 1% or less
of its own mass from long range to close range. (THe
pressor does exactly the same in reverse) Only one
tractor or pressor (and never both) may be fired in
one turn by any one ship, no matter how many are
installed. A "to hit" roll must be made on the same
table and with the same die modifiers as a laser beam
weapon.
Solid shot weapons: Though the idea may seem strange,
hitting a projected cloud of roundshot at several
thousand Kilometers per second is not as funny an idea
as it might sound. A solid-shot weapon would be a
turret weapon identical in characteristics to a 
sandcaster. Make the "to hit" rolls as if the weapon
were an energy beam(i.e. not effective at long range)
with the added rule that any ship hit by solid shot
may negate the hit and bypass the roll on the damage
tables by moving to long range at the next range
dtermination step. This weapon and the tractor/pressor
beam may cause affected ships to violate the High
Guard rule that states that all ships  should be  at
the same range  from the enemy. Ships pushed of pulled
by a tractor/pressor beam or those attempting to
escape a solid-shot cloud must rejoins their fleets at
the "regular" range in the next turn.
    Antimissile cluster: Fired from any missile turret
or bay in place of any missile batery that does not
fire ordinary missiles in that turn, a cluster of
antimissile dartlets may be unleashed with the same
firing factor as the missile battery.  Incoming
missiles must penetrate these on the Missile Attack
Table as if trying to penetrate sand or beam defenses.
 Beam weapon superchargers: Since most of the energy
that goes into any beam weapon is wasted, being
expelled as waste heat,dispersed photons,and so forth,
an attempt may be made to render such weapons more
efficient with some mixed results. Any energy beam or
laser turret or bay may be equipped with a
supercharger. 
     A supercharged beam will have either a +1,+2 or
+3 on the penetration roll on the beam weapon table
(but not on the "to hit" roll), with the complication
that, if the bonus value or less is rolled on a single
six-sided die, that battery is reduced one factor as
if hit in combat.  A laser battery of factor 9 taking
a +3 on its penetration rolls will be reduced to
factor 8 on a roll of 1,2, or 3 on a d6.
Superchargers cost Cr 1,000,000 for each weapon so
equipped, and all weapons  in a battery must be
equipped with a supercharger for the battery to fire
with a bonus.  No extra energy is consumed by
supercharged fire. The option is left to the player as
to whether the bonus will be +1,+2 or +3, or even  no
bonus in each particular turn.
     Many other weapons variants are possible,but one
guidline should be kept in mind: no system should ever
gain something for nothing. Ther should be no "super
weapons" against which defense is not possible. Game
balance is still the senior admirl aboard any warship.

THis was taken from an article by Jefferson P.
Swycaffer.
I went ahead and put the whole thing in one message
here instead of installments. I got on a roll and kept
going. 
Upon reading this article again, I started to respect
it more. It doesn't have a lot of new rules or charts
for these weapons because they're not needed. The
charts that already exist in the rules are used and
wisely so. One wouldn't want to go around creating new
rules toying around with the canon.

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 08:43:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Wed Aug 14 07:43:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
Message-ID: <memo.857356@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0208140920470.2949-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
> > A detailed and self-consistent set of rules for NPC psychology in
> > general would be handy, including motivations, internal conflicts,
> > biases, thought patterns, and personality traits that aren't simple
> > advantages or disadvantages.  Non-human psychology as well, of course.
> 
> Hmm...  I never thought of that before, but I think if something like 
> that
> were well-done it would become indispensable for every RPG ever 
> published.

Never thought of codifying this: it just kinda flows naturally when I am 
creating a scenario.... or (often) while running it! My notes are covered 
with scribbles that I make during play to ensure that I remember what each 
of the NPCs is like the next time the characters meet him.

Another trick I use is 'name-triggers' - in the game I'm running at the 
moment, there's an Internal Security officer who has the same name as my 
boss at work. I can give him the same style, attitudes, etc., he just 
happens to have a different job... but he approaches it in the same way. 
The name alone triggers this.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 08:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Wed Aug 14 07:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style
In-Reply-To: <000601c24420$14d2b270$1001a8c0@sauron>
Message-ID: <20020814144741.61736.qmail@web11804.mail.yahoo.com>

Thanks a heap. Posted while I was writing the thing.
If you do find the Disintegrator article I'd love to
see it. Where'd you get that c.d?  I would have
scanned it in if my scanner were working, but alas. I
now have typing-2 after that.

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 09:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Wed Aug 14 08:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Aramis ss. navy builds IMTU
Message-ID: <3D5A749C.3AD1B9B0@mail.cswnet.com>

These are the initial navy builds for fleets in the Aramis subsector.
Done using "meduim navies". The budgets listed below are the usual peace
time budgets times ten. Tech levels are listed for the 80% of the fleets
that are modern; obsolete is of course at least 1 TL less.

TLF Imperial Forces, Aramis subsector, MCr 3478268.928

Colonial and Planetary Navies:
TL8 Corfu MCr 1300
TLA Focaline MCr 208.25
TLA Lablon MCr 192.5
TLA Violante MCr 13.3
TLB Carsten MCr 14
TL7 Zila MCr 24500
TL7 Yebab MCr 231750
TLB Nasemin MCr 21
TLB L'oeul D'Diou MCr 140
TLA Rugbird MCr 2520
TLA Towers MCr 20.825
TLD Lewis MCr 17.5
TLB Aramis MCr 232.75
TL9 Junidy MCr 11550000 
Thats right friends! Junidy has 11.5 TC Squadrons.
Don't mess with the LLellewyloly. They got Flower Power!!! 
TL8 Reacher MCr 59.5

other notes:
I found stuff on Jesedipere. Listed as pop 4000; they added Cr15000 to
the IN budget.

Attention Phill Webb:
What you could do, in lieu of quadloos, is to send 72 crates [18dt] of
Zilan wine. That would help me finish this quickly. Course you could do
it yourself with HGS now that the hard part is done. What ever floats
your boat.

On Lewis:
Since this is IMTU, I should tell you that the Lewisian Navy got largely
wasted in 1105. They made a good acounting for themselves though,
destroying a Gionetti CL, a Fer-de-Lance Destroyer, 2 Gazelle CE's,
numerous free traders, plus capturing a yacht and a scout ship.
One Type P Corsair is also thought to have been responisble for raiding
the Imperial Research Station on Vanejeen/Rhylanor.
The ground elements managed to hold the Imperial Marines at bay for at
least 3 weeks before surrendering. The budget listed above is what the
Lewisians at home have left. 1 Type P corsair is thought to have
survived; its last known location was Quopist/Lanth. This report is
several months old, however.
 
Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 10:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Aug 14 09:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Beanstalks in 15 years!
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020813214526.02abb008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029341650.3145.ajackson@ping>

Mark Urbin writes:
> 
> Once the first one is built, and it's getting payload into orbit much 
> cheaper than rockets/shuttles,
> more will be much easier to get funding for...

However, enlarging an existing beanstalk is definately cheaper than building a
new one.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 10:18:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Aug 14 09:18:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style
In-Reply-To: <002301c2436b$5287fa40$c0443b41@customer>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029341843.9882.ajackson@ping>

John Scarlett writes:

> Of course MT, TNE, T4 and GT, I'm sure, cover disintegrators.

I have no idea about MT, TNE mentions disintegrators but doesn't provide stats,
T4 doesn't even mention disintegrators, GT does have disintegrators though I'm
not certain whether they use GURPS disintegrators or GURPS displacers for the
mechanic.  Didn't Twilight's Peak have a disintegrator somewhere?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 10:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Wed Aug 14 09:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <20020814182158.C22124@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208140918420.26781-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Timothy Little wrote:

> Azalais Malfoy wrote:
> > I prefer letting the role-playing take care of trade issues, and I
> > hate math and prolonged dice-rolling.
> 
> I don't care much for dice-rolling, but I *love* math.  The more the
> better :)

Have fun doing all the math you like, but why inflict it on me when I
really want to role-play?  It isn't necessary for a role-playing game to
be an arithmetic test, is it?  I don't like games where, even with a
calculator, I have to give up and get a friend to help me design my
character, and there's not even any hope of being able to design my ship.
I *loved* CT and still do.

**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 10:23:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug 14 09:23:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <memo.857356@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020814090047.009e4c20@mindspring.com>

At 03:42 PM 8/14/02 +0100, you wrote:
>In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0208140920470.2949-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
> > > A detailed and self-consistent set of rules for NPC psychology in
> > > general would be handy, including motivations, internal conflicts,
> > > biases, thought patterns, and personality traits that aren't simple
> > > advantages or disadvantages.  Non-human psychology as well, of course.
> >
> > Hmm...  I never thought of that before, but I think if something like
> > that
> > were well-done it would become indispensable for every RPG ever
> > published.
>
>Never thought of codifying this: it just kinda flows naturally when I am
>creating a scenario.... or (often) while running it! My notes are covered
>with scribbles that I make during play to ensure that I remember what each
>of the NPCs is like the next time the characters meet him.

Go to the section of you local bookstore dedicated to writers.  You'll find 
several books on character motivation, writing effective minor characters, 
and some very useful books on creating plots.  None of the feature 2d6 
tables, but the Game Master's art is supposed to be a creative, not random, 
one.

>Another trick I use is 'name-triggers' - in the game I'm running at the
>moment, there's an Internal Security officer who has the same name as my
>boss at work. I can give him the same style, attitudes, etc., he just
>happens to have a different job... but he approaches it in the same way.
>The name alone triggers this.

Good method!

I keep a file of NPC ideas.  Very generic, not even system-specific, but 
things like "Guard #48  Competent, Large, eating something greasy, wiping 
his fingers on uniform."  He could be the guard at the gate of the castle, 
eating roast pig, an Arasaka gunner-boy eating soy pizza, or a Sword World 
prison guard eating stew.  I also keep a couple of "meaning of names" web 
sites book marked.

I have Shopkeepers, Guards, Toughs, Bureaucrats, Cops, and a slightly more 
detailed list of Passengers.

Maybe I'll clean it up a bit and put it on the web.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.
gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Author of GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces
Geek Code: tc tm tn- t4-- tg++$ ru ge+ 3i+@ c+
            jt- au pi he+ as+ so-                           



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 10:23:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug 14 09:23:40 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <17.2cc7c4a6.2a8bc01d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020814085502.009e5880@mindspring.com>

At 10:15 AM 8/14/02 -0400, you wrote:

>  >Jewell is an industrial world pressed right up on the Zhodani
>  >Consulate.  Take it out, and the next serious threat is Efate.. beyond
>  >that, the high-tech hi-pop worlds are a good distance to the rear.  Jewell
>  >has to be reduced in order to secure a buffer zone.
>
>That's no reason to surrender the instant Jewell is lost.

take the rest of the Jewell Cluster and hold it until end of the game.  You 
will get a victory.

>And there you go again, thinking strictly in terms of Zhodane on offense,
>Imperium always and forever on passive defense.

That is how the previous five frontier wars plated out, matches the known 
strategies of both sides and Imperial policy since the end of the 
Pacification Campaigns.

Forgive me for working with the material as published.  That, and using my 
lessons from over twenty years of serious research into military history.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 10:24:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Aug 14 09:24:05 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <20814.050005.1Q1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029342168.5736.ajackson@ping>

Leonard Erickson writes:
> 
> As someone pointed out, "impact" gets more than a bit weird at those
> velocities. The impactor acts more like a burst of high energy cosmic
> rays, which most assuredly *don't* spread that way.

Well, sure, if you have projectiles moving at upwards of 70% of c, where you
have to worry more about whether each individual atom hits another atom than
the bulk properties of the material.  OTOH, if you get hit by a 100 kilogram
missile travelling at 0.7c, it doesn't really matter much whether the impact
spreads out a bit.  I believe the discussion had more to do with energy levels
where armor is possibly relevant.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 10:24:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug 14 09:24:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <20020814182442.D22124@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <B97F02B7.697AF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <200208140119.MSJ03121@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <B97F02B7.697AF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020814085915.009eeec0@mindspring.com>

At 06:24 PM 8/14/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Tod Glenn wrote:
> > "You are taking fire RIGHT NOW!  What do you do?  TOO SLOW, they
> > have you zero'd.  You're hit."
>
>Ick.  I *hate* that, it makes things outside the game interfere with
>the in-game events.  For instance, I'm a slow decision-maker in real
>life; you would condemn all my characters to share the same trait.

I give fifteen seconds to declare something.  As long as a person has done 
something in that time span, he gets to proceed with his turn.  If not, 
it's a pass.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 10:26:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Aug 14 09:26:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <173.cf1a5bd.2a8b12da@aol.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029342234.524.ajackson@ping>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:

> Why?  Jewell is a major world, but it only has 1% of the Spinward March's 
> population, and only about 2% of its industrial capacity.

Well, it sort of depends on how many points you need for victory.  Basically,
it works out to 'if it's not a Hi-pop world, it really doesn't matter'.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 10:26:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Aug 14 09:26:42 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <17.2cc7c4a6.2a8bc01d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029342282.8505.ajackson@ping>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
 
> That's no reason to surrender the instant Jewell is lost.
> 
> And there you go again, thinking strictly in terms of Zhodane on offense, 
> Imperium always and forever on passive defense.

Well, it's apparently been true historically, for whatever reason.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 10:28:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Aug 14 09:28:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020814181100.A22124@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029342430.8394.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> 
> Yes, it would tend to.  Not nearly as much as it has between nations
> in our world though.  Weeks to months minimum communication time,
> non-human sentient races, and greatly varied environments are all
> diversifying factors that are not present in our world.

All of which are factors that would reduce trade.
> 
> I'm not so sure that reasoning backward from "diversity" to "little
> trade" makes for a strong argument.  If anything, diversity should
> increase the benefits of trade, and there are plenty of explanations
> for why the diversity remains.

Diversity increases the benefits of trade, but one of the benefits of trade is
the removal of diversity.
> 
> I'm particularly uncertain of the benefits of undercutting the entire
> foundation of the Imperium's reason for existence.

Because there's a mismatch between rhetoric and reality?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 10:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Aug 14 09:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
References: <Your message of "Tue, 13 Aug 2002 09:22:34 PDT." <B97E805A.69710%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020813215937.027fc008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <3D5A860B.30807@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Mark Urbin wrote:

> Hmmm...Buscemi as Andray Dunnan...

Nah, I see Gary Oldman, or even Kevin Spacey. Perhaps Matt Damon. 
(Anyone who's watched 'The Talented Mr. Ripley' knows how well he can 
play a sociopath...)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 10:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Aug 14 09:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Mail readers (was Re: Rockballs and Economy)
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814092812.0267beb0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <3D5A8860.8070307@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Mark Urbin wrote:

> Now I'm at an Outlook (curse, spit, wash hands; go ahead and mock 
> me...it won't be worse than having to use outlook) shop with a serious 
> set of IT fascists.

Like to keep themselves employed, do they.

"This is the weekly e-mail notifying you that once again, the Exchange 
Server has crashed, talking our entire business with it.

"In unrelated company news, the entire engineering staff has been sacked.

"Marketing feels that we can function well without a product, per se, so 
long as we keep gaining mind-share.  And since the weekly server crashes 
  prevent us from actually selling our product we need to protect our 
assets, anyway.

"VP's of Finance and Production both concur, and it has nothing to do 
with the vicious rumor that the head of Marketing has photographs of 
them using live goats in a sex act, despite the apparent realism of the 
pictures posted on the internal web site.

"Finally, all employees are reminded that they cannot transfer any 
company stock from their 401K accounts, so beating and wailing on HR's 
doors is useless.

"Some transient power surges can be expected as the shredders are 
started up, but once they are running we expect they'll be kept goping 
for several days."


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 11:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed Aug 14 10:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22DDB@USCHM203>

>Douglas Berry wrote:
>At 06:24 PM 8/14/02 +1000, you wrote:
>>Tod Glenn wrote:
>> > "You are taking fire RIGHT NOW!  What do you do?  TOO SLOW, they
>> > have you zero'd.  You're hit."
>>
>>Ick.  I *hate* that, it makes things outside the game interfere with
>>the in-game events.  For instance, I'm a slow decision-maker in real
>>life; you would condemn all my characters to share the same trait.

>I give fifteen seconds to declare something.  As long as a person has >done

>something in that time span, he gets to proceed with his turn.  If >>>>not,

>it's a pass.

I got this idea from some published adventure where I was a player. Might
have even been D&D. It was years ago, but I still use it on occasion:

Start counting down from ten. No explanation. No warning. Usually it's best
when characters have just entered a new area or some kind of
cave/ship/ancient structer/what-have-you.
It's unnerving the first time, and the players will be yelling "What! What!"
Eventually, but not always, they will dive to the floor, jump back out of
the room, start firing wildly, tossing grenades, and so on.

Basically, it simulates a gut reaction to a sudden threat. A door closing,
an automated pop-turret springing up, or a trap being sprung.
At zero, I tell them what has happened, and how it affects them according to
their actions.

Call it a "bad feeling" event. Not something you want to use very often, but
if done right can definitely cause some real suspense as the players, who
only know that something very bad is about to happen, try to imagine what is
going on and react accordingly.

I do enjoy the reaction I get when there are regulars in the group.

        Me: "Ten. Nine."
Old player: "Oh s***!"
New player: "What? What's going on?"
        Me: "Eight. Seven"
Old player: "Get out of the corrider!"
        Me: "Six. Five."
New player: "Why?"
        Me: "Four. Three."
Old player: "TRUST ME!JUST GET OUT OF THE F***ING CORRIDOR!"

Cheap shot? Perhaps, but it can be a nice wakeup call.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 11:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Aug 14 10:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Beanstalks in 15 years!
Message-ID: <20020814171640.316A3453A@mo120usjc.palm.net>

--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
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A message with no plaintext section was received.
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resend the email using plaintext formatting
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 11:56:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Loren Wiseman)
Date: Wed Aug 14 10:56:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Vilani Chess
Message-ID: <l03010d05b9804706017d@[192.168.1.67]>

As I mentioned yesterday, this is something I'm working up for inclusion as
a sidebar to GT: Nobles, as a bit of chrome. I am also thinking about a
"pure" Vilani boardgame, but that will probably be a loosely disguised lift
of some other ancient game, like Senet or Latrones or some such. If any of
the TML are into chess variants, I would be interested in your opinions and
a description of any perceived flaws with the following (short summary).

LKW

*******************

Vilani Chess: This game was evidently developed during the Rule of Man, and
is clearly descended from Solomani chess. Some Vilani claim the game dates
back thousands of years, and the Solomani game is a copy of theirs, but
there is no evidence of the game (as it currently exists) before the
Interstellar Wars, and some authorities claim it originated as recently as
the Long Night. Nevertheless, it remains popular among cultural Vilani
throughout the Imperium.

The game is played on a ten by ten square board, alternating colors. As in
conventional chess, a white square is on the righthand side of the board.
Rules are as in conventional chess, except as noted.

There are two sides, and the pieces are as follows:

Ishimkarun (Shadow Emperor): As king, but castling is not allowed (see
below) 1/side.

[insert Vilani word here] (the Aristocrat): As queen 1/side.

[insert Vilani word here] (the Merchant): As bishop 1/side.

Shugilii: As bishop 1/side.

[insert Vilani word here] (the Starship): , Only moves if it can jump over
pieces, and can move only to the other side of a row of one or more peices
(of either side) in a straight line in any direction, or can end a jump by
capturing an enemy piece. If it has no pieces to jump over, it cannot move
(but it can capture a piece immediately adjacent to it). 2/side

[insert Vilani word here] (Knight: As knight 2/side.

[insert Vilani word here] (Citadel): As rook (2 per side), but uses a
variant of castling, where the king can "enter" the citadel (represent this
by removing the rook and placing a poker chip under the king. When the king
is "in" the citadel, the citadel can't move and the king is immune to
capture until the citdel is captured (requiring a sacrifice of the
capturing piece). Conventional castling is not allowed, the king must enter
the same square as the citadel.

[insert Vilani word here] (Soldier): Pawn equivalent, but move diagonally,
capture straight ahead, no double move or en passant.

Setup as in conventional chess, with the Aristrocrat taking the place of
the queen. The merchant replaces the left-hand bishop, the Shugilii the
righthand one. Knights are next (left and right) then citadels, and the
Starships go on the extreme right and left of the first rank. Soldiers are
placed as pawns, 10 in a row in the second rank. White moves first.

***********************



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 12:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Wed Aug 14 11:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1029341843.9882.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020814184955.95531.qmail@web11804.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> wrote:
> John Scarlett writes:
> 
> > Of course MT, TNE, T4 and GT, I'm sure, cover
> disintegrators.
> 
The only mention I've seen in the LBBs is on page 14
of book 3. It says disentigrators are TL 16.

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 12:50:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug 14 11:50:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Vilani Chess
In-Reply-To: <l03010d05b9804706017d@[192.168.1.67]>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020814114531.009f47b0@mindspring.com>

At 12:57 PM 8/14/02 -0500, you wrote:
>As I mentioned yesterday, this is something I'm working up for inclusion as
>a sidebar to GT: Nobles, as a bit of chrome. I am also thinking about a
>"pure" Vilani boardgame, but that will probably be a loosely disguised lift
>of some other ancient game, like Senet or Latrones or some such. If any of
>the TML are into chess variants, I would be interested in your opinions and
>a description of any perceived flaws with the following (short summary).

The short summary: I would buy pieces for this.

I'll have to set up the board and play a few games to see how it works.

One thing.  Change "poker chip" to some Vilani word for token.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 13:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed Aug 14 12:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22DDB@USCHM203>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22DDB@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <20020814214414.429d7ae8.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 12:10:18 -0500
"Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> wrote:

>         Me: "Ten. Nine."
> Old player: "Oh s***!"
> New player: "What? What's going on?"
>         Me: "Eight. Seven"
> Old player: "Get out of the corrider!"
>         Me: "Six. Five."
> New player: "Why?"
>         Me: "Four. Three."
> Old player: "TRUST ME!JUST GET OUT OF THE F***ING CORRIDOR!"

They get out the corridor.

GM:  "Zero. The automated flamethrowers in the walls ignite, completely
toasting the air in the narrow corridor."

......

I like that idea. Even if the experienced player has no idea what is
actually happening, the character probably noticed something and didn't
have time to explain _why_ they had to leave _now_.

Great way of testing if the PCs are quick in responding to potential
threats.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 13:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Aug 14 12:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020814090047.009e4c20@mindspring.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020814090047.009e4c20@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m3eld1fcc7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
> 
> Go to the section of you local bookstore dedicated to writers.
> You'll find several books on character motivation, writing effective
> minor characters, and some very useful books on creating plots.
> None of the feature 2d6 tables, but the Game Master's art is
> supposed to be a creative, not random, one.

Some of us like simulationist games, of course.  I'm one--I'm never
happier than when I have a rulebook whose rules I can convert into a
computer program, then let run as it creates more and more intricately
detailed worlds.  But then, I'm a geek:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`When you wake up in the morning, Pooh,' said Piglet at last,
`what's the first thing you say to yourself?'
`What's for breakfast?' said Pooh. `What do you say, Piglet?'
`I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?' said Piglet.
Pooh nodded thoughtfully. `It's the same thing,' he said.
                                            --A.A. Milne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 14:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed Aug 14 13:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F165E@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Okay kiddies, you get to help design the chaos.  I'm trying to decide on the official Famille Spofulam logo font for the licensed merchandise I'm developing for sale.  Here's a page with the contestants so far:
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/famillespofulam/
The logo design I'm considering (and to an extent the printing viability) calls for a blocky, low-slung font.  The examples above are just what happen to be on my machine that I think look reasonably cool.  What are your thoughts?  I'll give folks a week to think about it or suggest cooler alternatives, then I'm off like a bull in a china shop to get this stuff released.  It's only two months behind the schedule I'd originally set for myself 8<;^)

Best,
Jesse

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 14:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Aug 14 13:17:03 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
 CHALLENGE)
References: <200208141339.MTJ01017@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D5ABAB7.10805@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:

> I've been wondering at what tech level does the quantum 
> computer appear?  I have the nagging feeling that in real 
> life, the quantum computer (a practical one) may appear 
> before I retire.  There seems to be a huge paradigm shift 
> that will take place once such a computer can be made - a 
> larger change than the transition from analog to digital.

Perhaps in manufacturing, but not, I think in terms of systems design, 
as all quantum devices I've seen are still binary devices.

It will be as much a paradigm switch as going from discrete components 
to IC's, more a matter of degree than a switch among fundamental mechanisms.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 14:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dave Strebe)
Date: Wed Aug 14 13:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F165E@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <02Aug14.134400pdt.119082@gw.city.vancouver.bc.ca>

Vdub

----- Original Message -----
From: "DeGraff, Jesse" <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 1:08 PM
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D


> Okay kiddies, you get to help design the chaos.  I'm trying to decide on
the official Famille Spofulam logo font for the licensed merchandise I'm
developing for sale.  Here's a page with the contestants so far:
> http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/famillespofulam/
> The logo design I'm considering (and to an extent the printing viability)
calls for a blocky, low-slung font.  The examples above are just what happen
to be on my machine that I think look reasonably cool.  What are your
thoughts?  I'll give folks a week to think about it or suggest cooler
alternatives, then I'm off like a bull in a china shop to get this stuff
released.  It's only two months behind the schedule I'd originally set for
myself 8<;^)
>
> Best,
> Jesse
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 14:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Aug 14 13:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
References: <m3bs87r262.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814093359.01680b70@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <3D5ABF63.7030608@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> At 12:26 AM 8/14/2002 -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
>> In mail you write:
>> > So far, the official numbers seem to indicate that there's not an
>> > awful lot of trade in relative terms.  This is not awfully surprising:
>> > it's expensive to put stuff up into orbit and expensive to ship it.
>> Huh? What makes you think it's expensive to get stuff into orbit?
>> I seem to recall someone running the numbers a while back and having it
>> come out cheaper than shipping by rail.
> 
> 
> Isn't the access to launch facilities a bit more limited than rail access?

Not when an air-raft can reach orbit from *anywhere*. Any planet with a 
decent poulation is going to have a number of spaceports to support 
orbital and system craft. Starports have additional facilities to handle 
starships (primarily construction and repair therof) This  Large 
international airport vs dinky metropolitan branch. There's a LOT more 
of the latter.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 14:51:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Aug 14 13:51:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <F53vuEMiaxIZpYnIW9i000000c8@hotmail.com>

From: "DeGraff, Jesse" <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com>

     "Okay kiddies, you get to help design the chaos.  I'm trying to decide 
on the official Famille Spofulam logo font for the licensed merchandise I'm 
developing for sale.  Here's a page with the contestants so far: ..."


Mr. DeGraff,

     I'll vote for vdub.  It has the look of the output of a 57th century 
PDA "Graffiti" style text input utility.
     Printing has all but replaced cursive writing in my lifetime.  As PDAs 
become more universal, the stylus strokes used to enter text via a 
"Graffiti" utility could replace or supercede the way we currently form 
standard alphabetic symbols.  Thus, the vdub/57th century "F" has become an 
upsidedown "L" with a dot instead of an upsidedown "L" with an additional 
slash, an "A" becomes an upsidedown "V" with a dot, instead of another 
slash, and so forth.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 14:52:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Wed Aug 14 13:52:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Vilani Chess
In-Reply-To: <20020814190010.7519.86867.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020814190010.7519.86867.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <o0fllusbkda1cbm749tu97qoc5qvmdc4r0@4ax.com>

On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 12:00:10 -0700, Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com> (Yes, _that_
Loren Wiseman!) wrote:

>As I mentioned yesterday, this is something I'm working up for inclusion as
>a sidebar to GT: Nobles, as a bit of chrome. I am also thinking about a
>"pure" Vilani boardgame, but that will probably be a loosely disguised lift
>of some other ancient game, like Senet or Latrones or some such. If any of
>the TML are into chess variants, I would be interested in your opinions and
>a description of any perceived flaws with the following (short summary).

>*******************

>Vilani Chess: This game was evidently developed during the Rule of Man, and
>is clearly descended from Solomani chess. Some Vilani claim the game dates
>back thousands of years, and the Solomani game is a copy of theirs, but
>there is no evidence of the game (as it currently exists) before the
>Interstellar Wars, and some authorities claim it originated as recently as
>the Long Night. Nevertheless, it remains popular among cultural Vilani
>throughout the Imperium.

Given the description, it would seem to be a development of 'several
versions of chess and chess-like games known to the Solomani'

>The game is played on a ten by ten square board, alternating colors. As in
>conventional chess, a white square is on the righthand side of the board.
>Rules are as in conventional chess, except as noted.

>There are two sides, and the pieces are as follows:

>Ishimkarun (Shadow Emperor): As king, but castling is not allowed (see
>below) 1/side.

>[insert Vilani word here] (the Aristocrat): As queen 1/side.

>[insert Vilani word here] (the Merchant): As bishop 1/side.

>Shugilii: As bishop 1/side.

>[insert Vilani word here] (the Starship): , Only moves if it can jump over
>pieces, and can move only to the other side of a row of one or more peices
>(of either side) in a straight line in any direction, or can end a jump by
>capturing an enemy piece. If it has no pieces to jump over, it cannot move
>(but it can capture a piece immediately adjacent to it). 2/side

Too powerful.  I would forget the ability to capture the adjacent piece,
and/or limit the number of pieces jumped to exactly one.  If both changes
are made, you have the _cannon_ of Chinese chess (xiangqi).  I'd be
inclined to just eliminate the capture of adjacent piece; the increased
power of the jump may be compensated for by the larger board.  If you
prefer, another alternative would be to eliminate the adjacency capture,
and allow _move_ but _not_ capture like a rook, requiring jump for capture.
This would be like the _cannon_ in _Korean_ chess.

>[insert Vilani word here] (Knight: As knight 2/side.

>[insert Vilani word here] (Citadel): As rook (2 per side), but uses a
>variant of castling, where the king can "enter" the citadel (represent this
>by removing the rook and placing a poker chip under the king. When the king
>is "in" the citadel, the citadel can't move and the king is immune to
>capture until the citdel is captured (requiring a sacrifice of the
>capturing piece). Conventional castling is not allowed, the king must enter
>the same square as the citadel.

Interesting.  I'll have to see how well this works.  Incidentally, while
your rule for simulating this with a standard chess set is reasonable,
"sets professionally-made to the Modified Staunton pattern (a favorite
among Solomani and Solomani-affecting Vilani) will make the Citadel wider
and shorter than a normal Rook, so that the King may be placed within it".
I think you also need to define the capture of an occupied citadel a little
better.

>[insert Vilani word here] (Soldier): Pawn equivalent, but move diagonally,
>capture straight ahead, no double move or en passant.

Also known as the 'Berolina pawn'.

>Setup as in conventional chess, with the Aristrocrat taking the place of
>the queen. The merchant replaces the left-hand bishop, the Shugilii the
>righthand one. Knights are next (left and right) then citadels, and the
>Starships go on the extreme right and left of the first rank. Soldiers are
>placed as pawns, 10 in a row in the second rank. White moves first.

I would move the initial position of the pawns to the third rank instead of
the second; this seems to be _very_ common in large-board variants, both
historic and fantastic.

+ + + + +

There is a program for 32-bit Windows (_not_ Win31 with Win32 extensions)
called Zillions of Games, which is a UI + game engine that can be
programmed - by you, fairly easily - to play _any_ game that you can define
the rules for.  The only rules here that I can see might cause problems
would be the pseudocastling and the Starship - but the cannon for both
Chinese and Korean chess _has_ been defined, and I expect that it would not
be difficult to handle the Starship as a result.  More info plus a free
demo (not programmable, but you can look at code for the supplied games) at
http://www.zillions-of-games.com.  There are also freely-downloadable games
playable if you have the full version of ZoG (or examinable if you don't).
If you can define the game adequately for ZoG, you can play it - ZoG _will_
be a strong player, though probably not professional-grade - and see just
how well it will work in practice.  You'll have to use either extant
graphics from other games (a wide selection) or create your own (Windows
BMP format).  ZoG allows play against the computer, or, if two people both
have ZoG, net play.  It also allows play against another person using the
'hot seat' method (i.e., ZoG is only a monitor/referee; take turns by
getting up and letting the other player get to the keyboard).

There is also more information about chess and chess variants at
http://www.chessvariants.com, including ZoG definitions for many (but not
all) games on the site.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 14:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed Aug 14 13:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F165E@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F165E@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <20020814222024.322cc3e8.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 13:08:34 -0700
"DeGraff, Jesse" <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> wrote:

> http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/famillespofulam/

I like the following fonts:

vdub - Because it looks like Bilandin, keeping in style with some other
Traveller stuff (cover illustrations et al.)

borg9 - Because it looks like something out of a cheesy 80ies movie,
something like a military department / special forces unit.

beware - Because Jesse says so  ;-)   And it looks corporate in about
the same way that borg9 looks military to me. Might be because several
small tech companies around here have similiar rounded fonts in their
logos.

In general, I don't think the font should be too ordinary, and having a
somewhat cheesy SciFi feeling doesn't hurt  :-)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 15:04:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Wed Aug 14 14:04:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <3D5AC4AD.8EAC61C5@mail.cswnet.com>

From: "DeGraff, Jesse" <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com>

     "Okay kiddies, you get to help design the chaos.  I'm trying to
decide on the official Famille Spofulam logo font for the licensed
merchandise I'm developing for sale.  Here's a page with the contestants
so far: ..."

Of the lot shown, I'd go with Beware.

Of the lots not shown, from Lotus I got the Creepy Font
[looks like Rocky Horror Picture Show]
and the Kidprint Font [appropriate for Ditzie, yes].

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 15:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Loren Wiseman)
Date: Wed Aug 14 14:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] I feel so honored . . .   :  )
Message-ID: <l03010d09b98076c239f1@[192.168.1.67]>

OK, here's kind of a thrill I ran across while looking for something else


>From Amazon-dot-com:
"Customers who bought titles by Loren Wiseman also bought titles by these
authors:
	John M. Ford
	Neil Frier
	Russell Goodwin
	Sean Punch
	Martin J. Dougherty"

Such august company I'm in . . .

LKW



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 15:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed Aug 14 14:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <m3eld1fcc7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020814090047.009e4c20@mindspring.com>
 <m3eld1fcc7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020814220831.38e0f56f.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 13:51:36 -0600
ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>) wrote:

> Some of us like simulationist games, of course.  I'm one--I'm never
> happier than when I have a rulebook whose rules I can convert into a
> computer program, then let run as it creates more and more intricately
> detailed worlds.  But then, I'm a geek:-)

Blessed be the geek, for he shall internet the world.

I prefer to mix both styles in my games (in different proportions for
different games). In horror settings, I prefer to use the rules as loose
guidelines only. In SciFi games on the other hand, I enjoy fooling
around with the systems.

In any case, this rarely applies to the actual playing in my game. The
mad scientist has his doomsday device, and there is much talk and/or
action to try stop him from using it.

The difference is that in a horror game, I make up a fiendish device
using my own imagination only. In a SciFi game, I would design it using
FF&S2.   :-)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 16:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Glatz)
Date: Wed Aug 14 15:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Gibson's vision of jacking in coming true?
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10208141457090.3551-100000@sink>

An interesting article on the latest in vision restoration for the blind -
hardwiring a video signal directly into the visual cortex.


http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/10.09/vision.html


douglas



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 16:05:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Wed Aug 14 15:05:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F165E@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <3D5AD495.7060403@attbi.com>

Dude


Supersoulfighter




-- 
Evyn

We're poor little lambs who've lost our way,
Baa! Baa! Baa!
We're little black sheep who have gone astray,
Baa - aa - aa!
Gentlemen rankers out on the spree,
Damned from here to Eternity,
God ha' mercy on such as we,
Baa! Yah! Baa!
R. Kipling, Gentlemen Rankers


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 16:08:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug 14 15:08:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814093359.01680b70@192.168.0.1>
References: <m3bs87r262.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> <20814.002653.3g0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814093359.01680b70@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020815080747.A23732@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> Isn't the access to launch facilities a bit more limited than rail
> access?

Not when there are mass-market contragrav vehicles.  "Launch
facilities" can be anywhere with a view of the sky.

You only need discrete launch facilities when the only way to get into
space is through dangerous, massive, and/or exceedingly costly
equipment.  That ceases to be true as soon as contragrav is invented.

In fact, if you have contragrav you can even get into orbit without
thrusters.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 16:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug 14 15:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <200208141347.MTJ01845@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208141347.MTJ01845@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020815081543.B23732@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> If we don't measure the photon, we get an interference 
> pattern.

Actually, if we don't measure the photon we get nothing at all :)


> If we measure the photon *after* it goes through the slits, 
> it takes either one slit or the other.

I presume you mean if you measure it *immediately* after.


>  In any case, the photon has been interfered with prior to going
> through the slits - in one case to produce an interference pattern,
> and in the other case to go one way or the other.

No.  It interferes with itself in the former case, after going through
both slits.

It has its wavefunction dispersed by your measuring device in the
latter, giving a different pattern.  Typically just a 1-slit pattern.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 16:18:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sparky)
Date: Wed Aug 14 15:18:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
References: <20814.043437.2f4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <006601c243e0$71b02620$67e84242@upstairs>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
> Simultaneous is a meaningless concept in physics if you are talking
> about events occuring at different locations.

I was thinking of a (if I can use a term improperly) local distance,
like in the two-slit photon experiment with a detector mounted on each
each slit.

> As the wave functions interacting you get spreading "waves" of
> probability. That is, the probability that it was over here interacts
> with the probability that some other particle was somewhere else,
> leading to further probability distributions for the current and
future
> positions of both particles.
> Multiply that by the huge numbers of particles that are involved in
> most things and it gets *really* ugly.

That's very interesting. I didn't realize that. Makes things like
trek-style matter-transport and time travel a real mess, doesn't it?

> Once you "make an observation", you've pinned the particle down as to
> it either is or is not where you "looked". With the result that any
> probabilty waves for other particles that are inconsistent with that
> result vanish. Ones that are consistent with it remain.
> This is properly discussed with math. And *I* am not up to it.
..and...
> It's not "multiple places". It's that it's only "partially" anywhere
> (the probability functions) until the wave "collapses".

I (currently) wouldn't really be able to follow the math. I'll take your
word for the results.

Just vanish? Is it default that no particles can exist in a set
form/place until  the instant they  interact with another particle? How
is there _any_ casuality at all?!? And doesn't this mean that future
events (interaction results) force interaction consequences to affect
the past? Seems like there would be waves of probablility effect going
both forward and backwards at the same time.

Thanks for the explanations. Gives me some tools to twist up how
Jumpspace might look/work/etc.

Sparky






From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 16:29:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sparky)
Date: Wed Aug 14 15:29:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
References: <200208141347.MTJ01845@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <20020815081543.B23732@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <007801c243e1$ee731fe0$67e84242@upstairs>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Timothy Little" <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
> >  In any case, the photon has been interfered with prior to going
> > through the slits - in one case to produce an interference pattern,
> > and in the other case to go one way or the other.
>
> No.  It interferes with itself in the former case, after going through
> both slits.
> It has its wavefunction dispersed by your measuring device in the
> latter, giving a different pattern.  Typically just a 1-slit pattern.

I'm just barging in all over the place. If a particle interefers with
itself, doesn't that mean (in some sense) that it is in two places at
once? (Kind of like bumping into itself.)

Although...I guess a particle could be in a large number of places so
'quickly' that it is repelled/attracted by it's own electromagnetic
charge.

(sigh) More to research when I get the time...

Sparky


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 16:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Aug 14 15:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Vilani Chess
In-Reply-To: <o0fllusbkda1cbm749tu97qoc5qvmdc4r0@4ax.com>
References: <20020814190010.7519.86867.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <o0fllusbkda1cbm749tu97qoc5qvmdc4r0@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <m3ofc5dqdt.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com> writes:
> 
> There is a program for 32-bit Windows (_not_ Win31 with Win32
> extensions) called Zillions of Games, which is a UI + game engine
> that can be programmed--by you, fairly easily--to play _any_ game
> that you can define the rules for.

[snip]

> If you can define the game adequately for ZoG, you can play it--ZoG
> _will_ be a strong player, though probably not
> professional-grade--and see just how well it will work in practice.

Anyone know of free software which works similarly?  I prefer to avoid
proprietary software whenever possible.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Firm footwork is the fount from which springs all offence and
defence.                             --Giacomo diGrasse, 1570

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 16:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug 14 15:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <m3eld1fcc7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020814090047.009e4c20@mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020814090047.009e4c20@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020814152928.009dd310@mindspring.com>

At 01:51 PM 8/14/02 -0600, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
> >
> > Go to the section of you local bookstore dedicated to writers.
> > You'll find several books on character motivation, writing effective
> > minor characters, and some very useful books on creating plots.
> > None of the feature 2d6 tables, but the Game Master's art is
> > supposed to be a creative, not random, one.
>
>Some of us like simulationist games, of course.  I'm one--I'm never
>happier than when I have a rulebook whose rules I can convert into a
>computer program, then let run as it creates more and more intricately
>detailed worlds.  But then, I'm a geek:-)

Oh, don't get me wrong - Iove rules.  They give me something to break.  I 
have Paul Jaquays old Central Casting books, which I use for random shops 
and NPCs, but for spear-carriers I just want the basics.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 16:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Aug 14 15:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F165E@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020814173901.00ac3660@minn.net>

At 01:08 PM 8/14/2002 -0700, Jesse
wrote:
>Okay kiddies, you get to help design the chaos.  I'm trying to decide on
the official Famille Spofulam logo font for the licensed merchandise I'm
developing for sale.  Here's a page with the contestants so far:
>http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/famillespofulam/
>The logo design I'm considering (and to an extent the printing viability)
calls for a blocky, low-slung font.  The examples above are just what
happen to be on my machine that I think look reasonably cool.  What are
your thoughts?  I'll give folks a week to think about it or suggest cooler
alternatives, then I'm off like a bull in a china shop to get this stuff
released.  It's only two months behind the schedule I'd originally set for
myself 8<;^)

Beware, followed by Goodtimes, followed by Vdub.

What font is Ditzie's Favorite?


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 16:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Wed Aug 14 15:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] I feel so honored . . .   :  )
In-Reply-To: <l03010d09b98076c239f1@[192.168.1.67]>
Message-ID: <001801c24482$98fadd90$1001a8c0@sauron>

Loren Wiseman wrote :
> "Customers who bought titles by Loren Wiseman also bought
> titles by these
> authors:
> 	John M. Ford
> 	Neil Frier
> 	Russell Goodwin
> 	Sean Punch
> 	Martin J. Dougherty"
>
> Such august company I'm in . . .

Umm, sorry, but can anyone tell me who Neil Frier, Russell Goodwin, and
Sean Punch are ?

I know Loren, Martin and John, but not the other three.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 16:41:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Wed Aug 14 15:41:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F165E@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <001701c24482$88c4a0a0$1001a8c0@sauron>

DeGraff, Jesse wrote :
 
> Okay kiddies, you get to help design the chaos.  I'm trying 
> to decide on the official Famille Spofulam logo font for the 
> licensed merchandise I'm developing for sale.  Here's a page 
> with the contestants so far:
> http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/famillespofulam/

Like someone else did, I like vdub as well , though beware 
is good too, and more in keeping with your "low slung" 
requirement. 

Frankie




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 16:42:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug 14 15:42:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1029342430.8394.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020814181100.A22124@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1029342430.8394.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020815084118.A23838@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:

[Tim wrote:]
> > Weeks to months minimum communication time, non-human sentient
> > races, and greatly varied environments are all diversifying
> > factors that are not present in our world.

> All of which are factors that would reduce trade.

The first I can agree with, but you'll have to be a lot more
convincing on the other two.  In particular, I think the second one is
pretty much neutral with respect to trade, and the last will almost
always *increase* trade.

None of them, or combination of them, account for two orders of
magnitude reduction in trade.


Furthermore, the main point I was making was that the Imperium *can*
be diverse without being near tradeless.  Do you agree or not?


> Diversity increases the benefits of trade, but one of the benefits
> of trade is the removal of diversity.

Another of the benefits of trade is the ability to support diversity
that could not exist otherwise.


> > I'm particularly uncertain of the benefits of undercutting the
> > entire foundation of the Imperium's reason for existence.
> 
> Because there's a mismatch between rhetoric and reality?

It has been stated many places in many published works, in the
*authorial* voice that the Imperium exists to promote and protect
trade between worlds.  It's not just in-game rhetoric.

And reality?  This is a *game-world* we're talking about.  In case
you're wondering, one way to tell is that it has FTL jump drives.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 16:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed Aug 14 15:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F1660@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

You think I'm gonna' ask her?  Are you nuts?!?  Last time I talked to her I was in the hospital for 3 months.  And that was wearing armor!  ;)

Jesse


> Beware, followed by Goodtimes, followed by Vdub.
> 
> What font is Ditzie's Favorite?
> 
> 
> Les
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 16:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Wed Aug 14 15:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <memo.868794@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F165E@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.-
com>
> Okay kiddies, you get to help design the chaos.  I'm trying to decide 
> on the official Famille Spofulam logo font for the licensed merchandise 
> I'm developing for sale.  

In order of preference: -

1. Beware.

2. Newbrilliant.

3. Sambaisdead.

They are all nice fonts, though. I think it's time I went font-hunting, 
I'm getting bored with the ones I have here :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.

PS. Really upset my Blue Planet players - they met a female Marine wearing 
an "I [heart] HE" t-shirt. They've been stepping nervously ever since :-)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 16:49:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Wed Aug 14 15:49:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
In-Reply-To: <20020814224103.11821.52220.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020814224103.11821.52220.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <k8nllusbgv75j9k8iftjmfq9104fns5j3q@4ax.com>

On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 15:41:03 -0700, "DeGraff, Jesse"
<Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> wrote:

>Okay kiddies, you get to help design the chaos.  I'm trying to decide on
>the official Famille Spofulam logo font for the licensed merchandise I'm
>developing for sale.  Here's a page with the contestants so far:

>http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/famillespofulam/

>The logo design I'm considering (and to an extent the printing viability)
>calls for a blocky, low-slung font.  The examples above are just what
>happen to be on my machine that I think look reasonably cool.  What are
>your thoughts?  I'll give folks a week to think about it or suggest cooler
>alternatives, then I'm off like a bull in a china shop to get this stuff
>released.  It's only two months behind the schedule I'd originally set for
>myself 8<;^)

Jesse:  Get busy with your font creator and create a Bilanidin that matches
the style of each, and post the Bilanidin rendering of 'Famille Spofulam'
(or the appropriate Vilani translation) in each along with it.  That way,
you can eliminate 'looks' that 'don't work' in the Vilani characters.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 16:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed Aug 14 15:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F1661@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Mexal wrote:
> PS. Really upset my Blue Planet players - they met a female 
> Marine wearing 
> an "I [heart] HE" t-shirt. They've been stepping nervously 
> ever since :-)
 

ROFL!!!!  Outstanding :)
Jesse

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 16:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed Aug 14 15:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F1662@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Rrrriiiiiiight.  1.I don't have a font editor  2.I've never edited a font before  3.I don't really have TIME to learn how to edit fonts right now ;)  4.I'd kinda' like the stuff to be readable by mundanes  5.BUT, maybe a few selected products in pure Vilani would be cool too!! ;D

Best,
Jesse


 
> Jesse:  Get busy with your font creator and create a 
> Bilanidin that matches
> the style of each, and post the Bilanidin rendering of 
> 'Famille Spofulam'
> (or the appropriate Vilani translation) in each along with 
> it.  That way,
> you can eliminate 'looks' that 'don't work' in the Vilani characters.
> 
> --
> Jeff Zeitlin
> jzeitlin@cyburban.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 16:57:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (George A. Boyett)
Date: Wed Aug 14 15:57:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F165E@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <000001c243e6$01cf3110$d69b8141@ORAC>

I like both Beware and Vdub.  

I am emailing you three samples.  The filenames are the fonts I used.





From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 16:57:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Wed Aug 14 15:57:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Vilani Chess
In-Reply-To: <20020814224103.11821.52220.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020814224103.11821.52220.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <rlnllucj3kejh56r6tal20o3rbr615c4r0@4ax.com>

On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 15:41:03 -0700, ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl
<ruhl@4dv.net>) wrote:

>Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com> writes:
 
>> There is a program for 32-bit Windows (_not_ Win31 with Win32
>> extensions) called Zillions of Games, which is a UI + game engine
>> that can be programmed--by you, fairly easily--to play _any_ game
>> that you can define the rules for.

>[snip]

>> If you can define the game adequately for ZoG, you can play it--ZoG
>> _will_ be a strong player, though probably not
>> professional-grade--and see just how well it will work in practice.

>Anyone know of free software which works similarly?  I prefer to avoid
>proprietary software whenever possible.

I have never seen any other program which does anything remotely similar.

Incidentally, the distinction you're inquiring about isn't 'free' vs.
'proprietary', it's either 'free' vs. 'retail' or 'open-source' vs.
'proprietary', and I suspect that you're really interested in _both_.

Why do you prefer to avoid 'proprietary' software whenever possible?

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 17:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed Aug 14 16:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F1664@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

I'll be lookin' for 'em :)
Thanks!
Jesse

> -----Original Message-----
> From: George A. Boyett [mailto:gboyett@msn.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 3:58 PM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: RE: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
> 
> 
> I like both Beware and Vdub.  
> 
> I am emailing you three samples.  The filenames are the fonts I used.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 17:04:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug 14 16:04:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F165E@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020814155132.009e9960@mindspring.com>

At 01:08 PM 8/14/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Okay kiddies, you get to help design the chaos.  I'm trying to decide on 
>the official Famille Spofulam logo font for the licensed merchandise I'm 
>developing for sale.  Here's a page with the contestants so far:
>http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/famillespofulam/
>The logo design I'm considering (and to an extent the printing viability) 
>calls for a blocky, low-slung font.  The examples above are just what 
>happen to be on my machine that I think look reasonably cool.  What are 
>your thoughts?  I'll give folks a week to think about it or suggest cooler 
>alternatives, then I'm off like a bull in a china shop to get this stuff 
>released.  It's only two months behind the schedule I'd originally set for 
>myself 8<;^)


Beware


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 17:05:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Aug 14 16:05:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F165E@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEPCIMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

1)  Goodtimes

2)  Beware

3)  vdub

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 17:10:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Aug 14 16:10:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020815084118.A23838@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029366595.4851.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:

> Furthermore, the main point I was making was that the Imperium *can*
> be diverse without being near tradeless.  Do you agree or not?

It can be diverse.  It can't be as diverse as the OTU, particularly in terms of
TL; essentially the only way the TL distribution in the OTU makes any sense is
if trade is really minimal.

> Another of the benefits of trade is the ability to support diversity
> that could not exist otherwise.

Not really.  There's a reason that, for example, there are a lot more languages
in primitive areas in Africa (where villages 20 miles apart might never contact
one another) than in the rest of the planet.

> It has been stated many places in many published works, in the
> *authorial* voice that the Imperium exists to promote and protect
> trade between worlds.  It's not just in-game rhetoric.

Actually, that can be true even if there isn't much trade.  It just implies
that the Imperium probably isn't very powerful.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 17:11:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Aug 14 16:11:07 2002
Subject: [TML] I feel so honored . . .   :  )
In-Reply-To: <001801c24482$98fadd90$1001a8c0@sauron>
References: <l03010d09b98076c239f1@[192.168.1.67]>
Message-ID: <3D5B8C30.4316.6BD981@localhost>

On 15 Aug 2002 at 10:38, Frankie wrote:

> Loren Wiseman wrote :
> > "Customers who bought titles by Loren Wiseman also bought
> > titles by these
> > authors:
> > 	John M. Ford
> > 	Neil Frier
> > 	Russell Goodwin
> > 	Sean Punch
> > 	Martin J. Dougherty"
> >
> > Such august company I'm in . . .
> 
> Umm, sorry, but can anyone tell me who Neil Frier, Russell Goodwin, and
> Sean Punch are ?

Sean Punch is the GURPS line editor, rules guru and author of GURPS 
books.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 17:11:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed Aug 14 16:11:33 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <007801c243e1$ee731fe0$67e84242@upstairs>
References: <200208141347.MTJ01845@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <20020815081543.B23732@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <007801c243e1$ee731fe0$67e84242@upstairs>
Message-ID: <20020815011002.57f51b19.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 18:28:02 -0400
Sparky <sparky13@nycap.rr.com> wrote:

> I'm just barging in all over the place. If a particle interefers with
> itself, doesn't that mean (in some sense) that it is in two places at
> once? (Kind of like bumping into itself.)

That a photon creates an interference pattern with itself means simply
this: That viewing a photon as a particle is not correct.

Photons can in some situations (excitation/de-excitation of atoms for
example) be viewed as particles, in other situations (interference
patterns etc) they can be viewed as waves. To say that they are simply
particles (or simply waves) is not completely true.

Unless, off course, you consider the fact that this dual nature is true
for all particles...  ;-)

However once they get too big, the wave nature becomes irrelevant. For
example, you need an impossibly narrow slit to create an interference
pattern, many times narrower than the particle could even fit through.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 17:13:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Aug 14 16:13:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F1662@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMEPCIMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>


Rrrriiiiiiight.  1.I don't have a font editor  2.I've never edited a font
before  3.I don't really have TIME to learn how to edit fonts right now ;)
4.I'd kinda' like the stuff to be readable by mundanes  5.BUT, maybe a few
selected products in pure Vilani would be cool too!! ;D

Best,
Jesse

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

what is needed is a sign language spouting adult version of Ditzie
with Vilani subtitles

Why?


:
:
:
:
spoiler space
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:

Because you'd have a Wenched Hiver in Vilani


jml
^_^;;;;


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 17:13:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Wed Aug 14 16:13:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <20020814190010.7519.86867.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentra
 l.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020814155827.00b54720@mailhost.efn.org>

My thoughts on this thread:

Fifteen seconds isn't so bad, though ten is pushing it a bit.

I don't think that it's fair to start counting down without giving *some* 
hint as to what the characters should be reacting to.  Presumably they saw 
or heard something, and that information should be given to the players; if 
they can't decide how to react to it, then feel free to smack them.  What 
if the clue is a creak and the floor starting to give way (trapdoor 
opening), but with no data on what's happening, the player declares that 
he's throwing himself to the ground?

There's also the problem that physical reflexes are a lot quicker than 
formulating and completely stating a verbal response.  I can fire a gun 
from the hip or throw myself out of the way of something a lot faster than 
I can say that I'm doing so.  Nor am I unable to complete that action 
because the GM didn't hear me over the three other people also shouting 
something.



--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 17:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 14 16:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Vilani Chess
Message-ID: <105.1a46b452.2a8c3ed3@aol.com>

>One thing.  Change "poker chip" to some Vilani word for token

I'm assuming the actual pieces will have the citadel/rook constructed so the 
Shadow-Emperor/king fits inside it or on top somehow. The poker chip thing 
was just a temporary expedient.

Killing rumors before they start: Nobody at SJ Games knows of this besides me 
(unless they read the TML), so there are NO plans to actually produce this 
game. 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 17:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed Aug 14 16:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F1665@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> 
> what is needed is a sign language spouting adult version of Ditzie
> with Vilani subtitles
> 
> Why?
> 
> 
> :
> :
> :
> :
> spoiler space
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> 
> Because you'd have a Wenched Hiver in Vilani
> 
> 
> jml
> ^_^;;;;



"Nuke the site from orbit.  It's the only way to be sure."
;)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 17:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Wed Aug 14 16:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <memo.869387@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F1661@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.-
com>
> Mexal wrote:
> > PS. Really upset my Blue Planet players - they met a female 
> > Marine wearing 
> > an "I [heart] HE" t-shirt. They've been stepping nervously 
> > ever since :-)
>  
> 
> ROFL!!!!  Outstanding :)
> Jesse

Thank you.

I do hope your mechandising will include said t-shirt - I want one :-)

Another example - as recounted in a different thread - of 'name-trigger' 
techniques for generating NPC characteristics.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 17:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shadowcat)
Date: Wed Aug 14 16:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020814155132.009e9960@mindspring.com>
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F165E@ussvlexc10.corp.n etapp.com>
Message-ID: <3D5A9CD5.23513.320F4C@localhost>

I vote for Borg 9


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 17:35:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Angus McDonald)
Date: Wed Aug 14 16:35:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <OFE941E69D.D63A7C6A-ONCA256C15.007F14E1@dnsalias.com>

Jesse,

Love your work. My votes go to:

beware
vdub
freya

Borg9 is just plain cheesy, and I'd avoid any all caps font, 
supersoulfighter needs a soundtrack, axaxax looks wrong, and the rest are 
boring.

Cheers,
---  from  ---
Angus McDonald
www.falkayn.com

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 17:37:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Aug 14 16:37:05 2002
Subject: [TML] P B E Traveller campaign
In-Reply-To: <memo.822670@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHIEPFIMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

the map

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 17:44:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 14 16:44:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveler Minatures
Message-ID: <OFB738EBCA.774DAD36-ONCA256C15.00813463-CA256C15.00819185@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Steve wrote:
>  The copyright is GW's, although the Trav-specific stuff likely
>couldn't be re-released w/o a license from FarFuture? IAC, no one
>at GW cares to ever re-release them; the masters are probably in
>storage somewhere - heck, maybe Foundry has `em through Ansell?

Ansell? But Marc's licence probably won't cover condoms emblazoned with 
Imperial starbursts, even for marketing purposes - oh, I've obviously 
misunderstood this thread...

[Thursday. It must be Thursday.]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 18:01:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 14 17:01:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <7c.2c7a4f5c.2a8c4912@aol.com>

 >>And there you go again, thinking strictly in terms of Zhodane on offense,
 >>Imperium always and forever on passive defense.
 >
 >That is how the previous five frontier wars plated out, matches the known 
 >strategies of both sides and Imperial policy since the end of the 
 >Pacification Campaigns.
 >
 >Forgive me for working with the material as published.

You are forgiven (as if you need to ask me).  But I would never continue with 
a strategy, published or not, that has produced nothing but bare draws and 
significant losses in five wars.  I certainly wouldn't stand around passively 
waiting for the next attack -- that guarantees a loss.

 >That, and using my lessons from over twenty years of serious research
 >into military history.

So ... how are victories obtained?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 18:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Gilson)
Date: Wed Aug 14 17:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F165E@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020814190119.00b62ee0@mail.mchsi.com>

At 01:08 PM 8/14/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>Okay kiddies, you get to help design the chaos.  I'm trying to decide on 
>the official Famille Spofulam logo font for the licensed merchandise I'm 
>developing for sale.  Here's a page with the contestants so far:
>http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/famillespofulam/
>The logo design I'm considering (and to an extent the printing viability) 
>calls for a blocky, low-slung font.  The examples above are just what 
>happen to be on my machine that I think look reasonably cool.  What are 
>your thoughts?  I'll give folks a week to think about it or suggest cooler 
>alternatives, then I'm off like a bull in a china shop to get this stuff 
>released.  It's only two months behind the schedule I'd originally set for 
>myself 8<;^)
>
>Best,
>Jesse

I like the Beware one.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 18:04:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Wed Aug 14 17:04:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
Message-ID: <memo.870081@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020814155827.00b54720@mailhost.efn.org>

> I don't think that it's fair to start counting down without giving 
> *some* hint as to what the characters should be reacting to.  

What if the 'clue' is a mechanical voice counting down?

Indeed, physical reactions can proceed faster than you can verbalise, 
indeed faster than you consciously think. 

I have reacted to situations where I *thought* I'd had plenty of time to 
work out an appropriate response, yet bystanders claimed that the reaction 
had been virtually instantaneous. Other times, I have found myself at the 
end-point of the reaction without any idea of how I got there (over a wall 
just ahead of an explosion, answering an emergency call out fully clothed 
when last thing I knew I was in bed asleep or treating someone who was 
fitting a couple of rows away in an aircraft as a few examples of the 
latter).

Still, this is a game, and we need to look at ways of simulating reality. 
In a live action role-play you can get a bit closer... one of the above 
examples was from an LARP not real life... but in normal table-top gaming 
all you can go on is verbal response to a threat that is also spoken (the 
GM's description).

It's possibly not something to do too often, but can be effective. I once 
had a party of players crawling through some underground passages, which 
were quite unstable and I intended for there to be a rockfall. As I 
described the scene I wandered around the table, and as I reached the 
rockfall bit, I suddenly put my hands on the shoulders of one of the 
players. Poor dear nearly jumped out of his skin :-)

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 18:10:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 14 17:10:04 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <d2.1c818998.2a8c4ae4@aol.com>

 >> That's no reason to surrender the instant Jewell is lost.
 >> 
 >> And there you go again, thinking strictly in terms of Zhodane on offense, 
 >> Imperium always and forever on passive defense.
 >
 >Well, it's apparently been true historically, for whatever reason.

Hm.  Sounds like an opportunity for a player character admiral to turn things 
around.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 18:10:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Aug 14 17:10:37 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <7c.2c7a4f5c.2a8c4912@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D5B9A01.30711.A1D203@localhost>

On 14 Aug 2002 at 20:00, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> You are forgiven (as if you need to ask me).  But I would never
> continue with a strategy, published or not, that has produced
> nothing but bare draws and significant losses in five wars.  I
> certainly wouldn't stand around passively waiting for the next
> attack -- that guarantees a loss. 

How odd. The western allies were the attacked in WWI and they won. 

>  >That, and using my lessons from over twenty years of serious research
>  >into military history.
> 
> So ... how are victories obtained?

By not losing. :)

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 18:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Aug 14 17:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <d2.1c818998.2a8c4ae4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D5B9B16.26511.A60AFB@localhost>

On 14 Aug 2002 at 20:08, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>  >> That's no reason to surrender the instant Jewell is lost.
>  >> 
>  >> And there you go again, thinking strictly in terms of Zhodane on offense, 
>  >> Imperium always and forever on passive defense.
>  >
>  >Well, it's apparently been true historically, for whatever reason.
> 
> Hm.  Sounds like an opportunity for a player character admiral to
> turn things around. 

And then lose his job and get stripped of all his titles for 
precipitating a general free-for-all with the Zhos instead of the 
controlled 'border disputes' that had been the case for the last few 
centuries.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 18:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Wed Aug 14 17:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style
References: <ML-2.3.1029341843.9882.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <001a01c243f2$07311900$b8c8d63f@customer>

Yes, the Ancient Droyne sleepers had disintegrators that worked
telepathicaly.

John Scarlett
----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Jackson" <ajackson@iii.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Cc: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 12:17 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style


> John Scarlett writes:
>
> > Of course MT, TNE, T4 and GT, I'm sure, cover disintegrators.
>
> I have no idea about MT, TNE mentions disintegrators but doesn't provide
stats,
> T4 doesn't even mention disintegrators, GT does have disintegrators though
I'm
> not certain whether they use GURPS disintegrators or GURPS displacers for
the
> mechanic.  Didn't Twilight's Peak have a disintegrator somewhere?
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 19:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 14 18:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style
Message-ID: <OF509F5566.C99AE2BC-ONCA256C16.0002534F-CA256C16.0002E12B@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Frankie wrote:
>Antimissiles and Roundshot
>Variant ship-to-ship weapons for TRAVELLER gaming
>by Jefferson P. Swycaffer

And yes, this is _that_ "Jefferson P. Swycaffer", of Traveller novel fame.

Try Beowulf Down ==> Tavonni Repair Bays ==> Other Assorted Notes ==> The Concordat Novels of Jefferson P. Swycaffer. With thanks to Barry Osser.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 19:17:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Aug 14 18:17:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Beanstalks in 15 years!
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1029341650.3145.ajackson@ping>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020813214526.02abb008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814211556.02ad2008@192.168.0.1>

At 09:14 AM 8/14/2002 -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Mark Urbin writes:
> > Once the first one is built, and it's getting payload into orbit much
> > cheaper than rockets/shuttles,
> > more will be much easier to get funding for...
>However, enlarging an existing beanstalk is definately cheaper than building a
>new one.

Yes, but it won't be yours...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 19:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Aug 14 18:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208140918420.26781-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
References: <20020814182158.C22124@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814211647.026b8008@192.168.0.1>

At 09:20 AM 8/14/2002 -0700, Azalais Malfoy wrote:
>On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Timothy Little wrote:
> > Azalais Malfoy wrote:
> > > I prefer letting the role-playing take care of trade issues, and I
> > > hate math and prolonged dice-rolling.
> > I don't care much for dice-rolling, but I *love* math.  The more the
> > better :)
>Have fun doing all the math you like, but why inflict it on me when I
>really want to role-play?  It isn't necessary for a role-playing game to
>be an arithmetic test, is it?  I don't like games where, even with a
>calculator, I have to give up and get a friend to help me design my
>character, and there's not even any hope of being able to design my ship.
>I *loved* CT and still do.

Gearheading is good for game prep.  If it's there, the gearheads will use 
and produce wonderful stuff for you.
Once you're in the game, ya, I like quick flow too.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
You sound reasonable ... time to up my medication
                  http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 19:26:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Aug 14 18:26:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Origins of the X-Boat System
Message-ID: <200208150124.MUF03132@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Now we know the real reason the network was set up.

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20020812/chinapost.html
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 19:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Aug 14 18:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <3D5ABF63.7030608@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <m3bs87r262.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020814093359.01680b70@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814213324.029860c0@192.168.0.1>

At 01:36 PM 8/14/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
>>At 12:26 AM 8/14/2002 -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>In mail you write:
>>> > So far, the official numbers seem to indicate that there's not an
>>> > awful lot of trade in relative terms.  This is not awfully surprising:
>>> > it's expensive to put stuff up into orbit and expensive to ship it.
>>>Huh? What makes you think it's expensive to get stuff into orbit?
>>>I seem to recall someone running the numbers a while back and having it
>>>come out cheaper than shipping by rail.
>>Isn't the access to launch facilities a bit more limited than rail access?
>Not when an air-raft can reach orbit from *anywhere*.

Whoops! An actual Traveller thread!
Yup, getting to orbit is cheap with anti-grav.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 19:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed Aug 14 18:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Vilani Chess
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020814114531.009f47b0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020815014226.CF59C27941@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/14/02 at 11:48 AM,  Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
said:

>One thing.  Change "poker chip" to some Vilani word for token.

Dare I suggest, Coyne? <g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 19:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Aug 14 18:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Vilani Chess
Message-ID: <200208150147.MUH00929@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Eris Reddoch says
>Dare I suggest, Coyne? <g>

Mr. Whipsnade, give the man a cigar!
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 20:14:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Barnett-Lewis)
Date: Wed Aug 14 19:14:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
References: <20020814224103.11821.52220.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D5B0DCE.DB7DECE8@mailbag.com>

> Okay kiddies, you get to help design the chaos.  I'm trying to decide on the official Famille Spofulam logo font for the licensed merchandise I'm developing for sale.  Here's a page with the contestants so far:
> http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/famillespofulam/
> The logo design I'm considering (and to an extent the printing viability) calls for a blocky, low-slung font.  The examples above are just what happen to be on my machine that I think look reasonably cool.  What are your thoughts?  I'll give folks a week to think about it or suggest cooler alternatives, then I'm off like a bull in a china shop to get this stuff released.  It's only two months behind the schedule I'd originally set for myself 8<;^)

I like beware.
 
> Best,
> Jesse

William
-- 
You better watch out   What you wish for;
It better be worth it  So much to die for.
		       Courtney Love

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 20:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 14 19:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Llellewyloly
Message-ID: <3d.22a837a9.2a8c68df@aol.com>

Roseberry writes:

>Since Junidy has been mentioned, does anyone know if the LLellewyloly
>require different sized staterooms? Is there anything that might be
>different about ships used by the LLellewyloly?
>

They are about human-height, so a purpose-built stateroom would probably be 
about the same size. Depending on how flexable a particular Llellewyloly is, 
his walk will vary from "Disney Chicken" to fairly controlled and normal.

My version of the Llellewyloly (readable at my website - hit the front page 
and follow the essays link), have fairly poor eyesight beyond short range, 
but have *very* good motion-sense. They also have eyes in all five limbs.  As 
such, a Llellewyloly bridge station might have a body cushion behind it to 
provide some bracing, but the Llellewyloly will stand on one leg and 
manipulate controls with the other four. Also, unless the station is also 
meant for other races, it will likely concentrate output devices (screens, 
etc) around one or two limbs, and controls around the rest. secondary outputs 
will be very close to the controls that affect them, and you will not find a 
constant manipulation control that has a related output device more than a 
couple inches away, if ever, unless that readout is actually in front of 
another limb. Such setups require that the user *let go* of the control to 
look at the screen, and that wouldn't be wise.

Same goes, BTW, for on-the-ground technology on Junidy.

The other big difference is that a Llellewyloly ship will *run thin* on 
atmospheric pressure, since they are, to borrow a joke, "Vaccuum Breathers".  
The few that get away from Junidy are those with, IMTU, a paid-for racial 
gene adaption that allows them to handle higher atmospheric pressures. 
Unadapted Llellewyloly will literally cook via over-oxygenation in a normal 
or dense atmosphere...

GC

<http://members.aol.com/gypsycomet/index.html>

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 20:18:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Wed Aug 14 19:18:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F165E@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F165E@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <6b3mlusoijmnf5ij13qm6jgvvi5bm3p9s8@4ax.com>

On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 13:08:34 -0700, "DeGraff, Jesse"
<Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> wrote:

>The logo design I'm considering (and to an extent the printing
>viability) calls for a blocky, low-slung font.  The examples above are
>just what happen to be on my machine that I think look reasonably
>cool.  What are your thoughts?  I'll give folks a week to think about
>it or suggest cooler alternatives, then I'm off like a bull in a china
>shop to get this stuff released.  It's only two months behind the
>schedule I'd originally set for myself 8<;^)

While my first impression was to agree with you on the Beware
typeface, vdub or newbrilliant, being less literal and more graphic in
design, would both appear to be more amenable to a heavily graphic
logo.

That being said, I'll also admit to a fondness for the appearance of
qswitchax.  It is nice, readable and the underplayed
descenders/ascenders keep it interesting.

Given that the Famille is an old, well-established and respected
venture, you may want to consider more traditional typefaces.  The
typefaces you are presently favoring might become as embarrassing as a
Peter Max designed corporate logo would appear to today's eyes.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 20:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 14 19:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <19d.6fbf772.2a8c6b7e@cs.com>

Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com writes:



> Rrrriiiiiiight.  1.I don't have a font editor  2.I've never edited a font 
> before  3.I don't really have TIME to learn how to edit fonts right now ;)  
> 4.I'd kinda' like the stuff to be readable by mundanes  5.BUT, maybe a few 
> selected products in pure Vilani would be cool too!! ;D
> 
> Best,
> Jesse
> 

How about, front of shirt in English, back has Vilani? Or vice-versa.

Doug Grimes


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 20:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 14 19:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <f2.201d5038.2a8c6c62@cs.com>

Les Bates writes:


> Beware, followed by Goodtimes, followed by Vdub.
> 
> What font is Ditzie's Favorite?
> 
> 
> Les
> 

Why, an ele-font, of course.  (g,d, & rlh)   :)

Doug Grimes


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 20:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Aug 14 19:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
In-Reply-To: <f2.201d5038.2a8c6c62@cs.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020814214326.00ac77e0@minn.net>

At 10:30 PM 8/14/2002 EDT, Damage169@cs.com wrote:
>Les Bates writes:
>
>
>> Beware, followed by Goodtimes, followed by Vdub.
>> 
>> What font is Ditzie's Favorite?
>> 
>> 
>> Les
>> 
>
>Why, an ele-font, of course.  (g,d, & rlh)   :)
>
>Doug Grimes

"Ditzie?"

"Yes, Uncle Dennis?"

"This is Mister Doung Grimes, he'll be helping out on the Elephant Mounted
Particle Beam project."

"Kewl!"


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 20:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Wed Aug 14 19:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Origins of the X-Boat System
Message-ID: <3D5B1574.CC96C328@mail.cswnet.com>

>Now we know the real reason the network was set up.

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20020812/chinapost.html

Ah yes. The eternal persistence of death and taxes.
How much you wanna bet they still have undelivered mail;)

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 20:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug 14 19:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Vilani Chess
In-Reply-To: <rlnllucj3kejh56r6tal20o3rbr615c4r0@4ax.com>
References: <20020814224103.11821.52220.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <rlnllucj3kejh56r6tal20o3rbr615c4r0@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020815124910.C24201@freeman.little-possums.net>

Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
> Incidentally, the distinction you're inquiring about isn't 'free'
> vs.  'proprietary'

I would submit that 'free' vs 'proprietary' is exactly what he meant.
The alternative you suggest, 'open source', is somewhere in the
middle.  It is unfortunate that English uses one word, "free", to mean
two quite different things (zero price, and unconfined).


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 20:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 14 19:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <185.cb93391.2a8c71ab@cs.com>

In a message dated 8/14/02 9:42:30 PM Central Daylight Time, 
lesbates@minn.net writes:


> "Ditzie?"
> 
> "Yes, Uncle Dennis?"
> 
> "This is Mister Doung Grimes, he'll be helping out on the Elephant Mounted
> Particle Beam project."
> 
> "Kewl!"
> 
> 
> Les
> 

Alright! I've been canonized (kinda)! :D

Doug Grimes
That's DOUG, not Doung. If I'm going to be Ditzie's latest redshirt, I at 
least want my name right on the cenotaph stone.


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 21:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ken Murphy)
Date: Wed Aug 14 20:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style
Message-ID: <F96q8j0tFKWV5EWnZp7000053c7@hotmail.com>

   In a previous post,John points out that:

In your initial post you mentioned
>disintegrators.  The article, Antimissiles and Roundshot doesn't have
>disintegrators in it.  It covers:
>Minefields
>Tractor/pressor beams
>Solid-shot weapons
>Antimissile clusters
>Beam weapon superchargers
>
>Now issue 108 has an article High Tech and Beyond.  This article covers
>disintegrators and other TL 16 to 21 technology.  It's three pages with 
>some
>charts.

   Sorry,apparently I'd *combined* the two different articles into a single 
document.
   Most of the ideas from #95 have already been scrawled into the margins of 
the starship combat section of my MT Ref's Book for quick access.
   Yes, the article out of #108 is *INDEED* the stuff I am looking for. 
Thanks very much for pointing me in the right direction :)

   And Frankie was nice enough to inform us:

>If anyone wants the articles I'll cut the text and and mail it to yer.
>
>Issue 108 has "Hi-Tech and Beyond" which is three pages and has few
>tables.

   Why yes, Frankie, I would *certainly* appreciate a copy of the issue 108 
article. You others out there might like a copy as well, as it represents a 
decidedly different look at disintagrators (and other stuff) than provided 
in HG or MT. Personally, I *like* the example disintagrator given, which, 
IIRC, could disappear 800 displacement tons with a single hit! Yikes!!!

   Thanks for everyone's help.
  -Ken-

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 21:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 14 20:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <175.d04dba0.2a8c749b@cs.com>

In a message dated 8/14/02 9:54:40 PM Central Daylight Time, Damage169@cs.com 
writes:


> Alright! I've been canonized (kinda)! :D
> 
> Doug Grimes
> That's DOUG, not Doung. If I'm going to be Ditzie's latest redshirt, I at 
> least want my name right on the cenotaph stone.
> 
> 

I mean it. If you want to use me in your stories, I'd be very honored and 
quite tickled by the idea. You write great stuff and I hope to read more 
(perhaps as published Traveller fiction?). I just ask that you get my name 
right (long, painful story). 

Doug Grimes


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 21:08:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 14 20:08:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Aramis ss. navy builds IMTU
Message-ID: <OF361C1449.B157CFE9-ONCA256C16.00038C5A-CA256C16.000DB318@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Dan wrote:
>TLF Imperial Forces, Aramis subsector, MCr 3478268.928
>
>Colonial and Planetary Navies:

You could try to cross-reference these budgets with the tables used to 
create the forces for the FFW board game. Try my site under Tavonni Repair 
Bays ==> Other Assorted Notes ==> Determining Planetary Forces in the Fifth Frontier War.

The tables cover:
        - the planetary defence battalions (immobile)
        - the mobile defence battalions (available for use off-world)
        - SDB factors (immobile)

The other elements from the Imperial forces that are not covered are the mobile planetary fleets (named), the colonial squadrons, and the regular 
Imperial forces (troops and fleets).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 21:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Aug 14 20:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
In-Reply-To: <185.cb93391.2a8c71ab@cs.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020814221416.00795730@minn.net>

At 10:53 PM 8/14/2002 EDT, Doug Grimes wrote:

>Doug Grimes
>That's DOUG, not Doung. If I'm going to be Ditzie's latest redshirt, I at 
>least want my name right on the cenotaph stone.

Got it.

"No Ditzie, you can't test your fusion powered engraver on poor Mr. Grimes'
headstone."


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 21:13:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 14 20:13:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Mail readers
Message-ID: <OFC5E772BF.C6FE7347-ONCA256C16.000E377A-CA256C16.000E9248@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Bruce wrote:
>... vicious rumor... photographs... live goats...
[snip]
>Some transient power surges can be expected as the shredders are 
>started up, but once they are running we expect they'll be kept goping 
>for several days.

"Goping" - presumably something that you do with live groats...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 21:15:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 14 20:15:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
Message-ID: <6c.20c4e6a1.2a8c7691@aol.com>

 >I don't think that it's fair to start counting down without giving *some* 
 >hint as to what the characters should be reacting to.

That's how I do it.

Ref:  "Have you ever heard that high whine with the increasing pitch that a 
camera flash makes before it is fully charged?"
Player:  "Yes."
Ref:  "You're hearing that right now."

And, of course, to make them nervous all you have to do is roll some dice 
several times and not say why.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 21:15:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 14 20:15:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <179.d06fe88.2a8c76a3@cs.com>

In a message dated 8/14/02 10:13:44 PM Central Daylight Time, 
lesbates@minn.net writes:


> Got it.
> 
> "No Ditzie, you can't test your fusion powered engraver on poor Mr. Grimes'
> headstone."
> 
> 
> Les
> 

At least that means there's a body left.

Doug G


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 21:17:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Aug 14 20:17:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
In-Reply-To: <175.d04dba0.2a8c749b@cs.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020814221809.00aca200@minn.net>

At 11:06 PM 8/14/2002 EDT, Doug Grimes wrote:
>In a message dated 8/14/02 9:54:40 PM Central Daylight Time,
Damage169@cs.com 
>writes:
>
>
>> Alright! I've been canonized (kinda)! :D
>> 
>> Doug Grimes
>> That's DOUG, not Doung. If I'm going to be Ditzie's latest redshirt, I at 
>> least want my name right on the cenotaph stone.
>> 
>> 
>
>I mean it. If you want to use me in your stories, I'd be very honored and 
>quite tickled by the idea. You write great stuff and I hope to read more 
>(perhaps as published Traveller fiction?). I just ask that you get my name 
>right (long, painful story). 
>
>Doug Grimes

Gosh. I don't know how I'm going to do that.

Yet.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 21:19:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Aug 14 20:19:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
Message-ID: <F6JYsIthCLwkcMtwGtY00007125@hotmail.com>

From: Flykiller@aol.com

     "But I would never continue with a strategy, published or not, that has 
produced nothing but bare draws and significant losses in five wars.  I 
certainly wouldn't stand around passively waiting for the next attack -- 
that guarantees a loss."


Sir,

     Who won and who lost?  Couldn't both sides "win" a war, that is 
generally meet their war aims?(1)  War is politics by other means, that's 
why generals and admirals usually don't decide grand strategy.  They can't 
be trusted with it.
     Why are you so certain the Imperium either "lost" or forced a "draw" in 
the five wars?  What was been Imperial strategy during that time?  It very 
well may be that the Imperium has met it's war aims in most of the Frontier 
Wars and, thus, "won" them as much as the Consulate did.
     Remember the Consulate grand strategy we all generally agreed upon?  
First, evict 3I colonies from Zho territories in the Foreven and Z-something 
Sectors and the Zho portions of the Marches.  Next, establish a multi-parsec 
buffer zone between the Imperium and the Consulate.  In the main, the 
Consulate has succeeded in these aims, the colonies have been 
evicted/absorbed and the Imperium and Consulate only "touch" along a single 
subsector.
     What has the Imperial grand strategy been during this period?  I think 
we can all agree that the strategy has changed over the centuries, but I 
also think we can agree that part of that strategy has been to maintain an 
Imperial presence in the Marches.  Keeping that goal in mind, the Imperium 
has "won" every Frontier War.
     In one of your earlier posts you mentioned something along the lines of 
"Cronor used to be Imperial, I want it back."  When do you want it back?  In 
700?  900?  1105?  The Imperium lost that world during the first two 
frontier wars, the next chance to "liberate" it would be 350 years later.  
That's over TEN human generations.  Do you really think there is huge 
segment of the population on Cronor pining for the long ago days of Imperial 
rule?  Three centuries time during which the Thought Police have worked?
     You've boasted about how your Spinward Marches fleet can win the war 
against their Consulate opponents.  Care to explain how you'll then win the 
peace?  How are you going to control the "lost" Imperial colony of Cronor 
after three centuries of "Zhodani-fication"?
     So, after the first two Frontier Wars, do you seriously believe the 
Imperium wanted all those lost colonies back?

     "So ... how are victories obtained?"

     Victory in battle or victory in war?  If you're asking about victory in 
war, it's obtained by meeting your strategic war aims.  Don't forget, 
winning every battle isn't the way that particular job gets done.  Ever hear 
of Vietnam?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

(1) - Take a look at the War of 1812 for a war in which both sides "won".


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 21:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Aug 14 20:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <6c.20c4e6a1.2a8c7691@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B9806BBF.69A71%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/14/02 8:14 PM, Flykiller@aol.com at Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> Ref:  "Have you ever heard that high whine with the increasing pitch that=
 a
> camera flash makes before it is fully charged?"
> Player:  "Yes."
> Ref:  "You're hearing that right now."
>=20
> And, of course, to make them nervous all you have to do is roll some dice
> several times and not say why.


I've had a lot of success with rolling the dice, then announcing something
like "You don't notice anything."

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 21:22:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Wed Aug 14 20:22:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traditional Schools
In-Reply-To: <memo.852139@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <000001c2440a$f406c000$6501a8c0@Darla>

IMTU I have University, Military Academy, Naval Academy, Merchant
Academy and Technical School available as first-term educational
options.  University represents any number of civilian institutions.  In
a traditional Traveller campaign, there would of course be several
Military, Naval and Merchant Academies; but in my Milieu 0 campaign
there is one each, located on Capital.  

All of these except Technical School take a full four-year term and, if
the student is successful, give a general Education increase as well as
some specific skills.  I use Int+Edu as an upper limit on total skill
levels, so the Edu increase is important.  Naval Academy graduates may
elect to be commissioned in the Imperial Marines instead of the Imperial
Navy.  

Technical School represents a more narrowly focused 2-year school, and
gives a specific skill-2 without the Edu increase.  Almost any skill can
be acquired at a technical school.  Technical school is followed by a
2-year short term in a career.

Graduates of the 4-year schools can pursue further education at Medical,
Law, Business or Graduate schools before commencing their various
careers.

Tom Barnes


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 21:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Wed Aug 14 20:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Aramis ss. navy builds IMTU
Message-ID: <3D5B1DFC.64717276@mail.cswnet.com>

"Hyphen" writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
You could try to cross-reference these budgets with the tables used to 
create the forces for the FFW board game. Try my site under Tavonni
Repair 
Bays ==> Other Assorted Notes ==> Determining Planetary Forces in the
Fifth Frontier War.

The tables cover:
        - the planetary defence battalions (immobile)
        - the mobile defence battalions (available for use off-world)
        - SDB factors (immobile)
<<<<<<<<<<<<

Yeah, I was looking at one of those tables in JTAS. Interesting thing,
it included planetary defence battalions right down to TL0. This was not
included in the original game; if you looked up Forboldn, for instance,
theres nothing there, but on the chart, I think it has something like 10
TL4 bn and 1 TL4 offworld bn. SDB factors chart I haven't seen; I'll
check it out and see if it diverges from whats shown on the game map.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 21:35:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Aug 14 20:35:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Vilani Chess
In-Reply-To: <rlnllucj3kejh56r6tal20o3rbr615c4r0@4ax.com>
References: <20020814224103.11821.52220.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <rlnllucj3kejh56r6tal20o3rbr615c4r0@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <m31y90iym3.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com> writes:
> 
> Incidentally, the distinction you're inquiring about isn't 'free'
> vs.  'proprietary', it's either 'free' vs. 'retail' or 'open-source'
> vs.  'proprietary', and I suspect that you're really interested in
> _both_.

No, it's free in the sense of freedom, free speech, liberty &c. as
opposed to free in the sense of price.  The term open-source means
something slightly different.  Free software is not necessarily
non-retail; in fact, it may come with quite a hefty price tag.

It so happens that the market price for free software is generally
nil, but that's simply a nice side-effect.  What I'm concerned about
is getting the source and being able to do with it essentially what I
will.

> Why do you prefer to avoid 'proprietary' software whenever possible?

Simply that I believe that free software is morally and practically
better than proprietary software.  While I'd not force anyone to free
his software (in exactly the sense that I'd not force anyone to follow
any other of my moral beliefs), I choose not to use proprietary
software where possible, and choose to release my _own_ software under
the GPL.

I suppose that sometime after I finish tractrack I'll have to work on
a game engine.  Those two projects should keep me busy until I'm
dead:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
An American thinks 100 years is a long time;
A European thinks 100 miles is a long distance.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 21:35:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Aug 14 20:35:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F1660@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020814223619.00acf300@minn.net>

"DeGraff, Jesse" <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> wrote:
>You think I'm gonna' ask her?  Are you nuts?!?  
>Last time I talked to her I was in the hospital 
>for 3 months.  And that was wearing armor!  ;)
>
>Jesse

>> What font is Ditzie's Favorite?

"Ditzie!"

"Yes Uncle Dennis?"

"How many times do I and Uncle Hengie have to tell you to not blow up
temporary employees and independant contractors?"

"Two thousand four hundred and seventy two."

That sounded about right to Dennis.

"Now be nice to Mr. DeGraff. Promise?"

Ditzie crossed her fingers behind her back.

"I promise, Uncle Dennis."


Les ;)



==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 21:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Wed Aug 14 20:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Aramis ss. navy builds IMTU
Message-ID: <3D5B2109.8E4B6BD9@mail.cswnet.com>

"Hyphen" wrote
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You could try to cross-reference these budgets with the tables used to 
create the forces for the FFW board game. Try my site under Tavonni
Repair Bays ==> Other Assorted Notes ==> Determining Planetary Forces in
the Fifth Frontier War.
<<<<<<<<<<<<snippaged>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Just took a look at it. I've got an initial fleet built for Junidy
pending some other research on LLellewyloly that I'm looking at; one of
the fleet units is a purpose built assault ship carrying 500 marines. 

The budget allowed for 500 such assault ships.

Thats a 5-C TL9 unit.
In addition, it has over 1000 Type R sub merchants.
I won't even discuss BB's and SDB's.

FLOWER POWER!!!

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 21:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Aug 14 20:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020814221809.00aca200@minn.net>
References: <175.d04dba0.2a8c749b@cs.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020814224323.00ad1e20@minn.net>

At 10:18 PM 8/14/2002 -0500, I wrote:
>At 11:06 PM 8/14/2002 EDT, Doug Grimes wrote:
>>In a message dated 8/14/02 9:54:40 PM Central Daylight Time,
>Damage169@cs.com 
>>writes:
>>
>>
>>> Alright! I've been canonized (kinda)! :D

>>I mean it. If you want to use me in your stories, I'd be very honored and 
>>quite tickled by the idea. You write great stuff and I hope to read more 
>>(perhaps as published Traveller fiction?). I just ask that you get my name 
>>right (long, painful story). 
>>
>>Doug Grimes
>
>Gosh. I don't know how I'm going to do that.
>
>Yet.

Saint Doug the Grimy? Hmmm...

I just finished Red Rabbit by Tom Clancy today. Something about a plot to
assassinate the Pope.

TC needs to work on character names. Would you believe there's a Colonel
Strokov?


Les




==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 21:58:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Aug 14 20:58:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
In-Reply-To: <F6JYsIthCLwkcMtwGtY00007125@hotmail.com>
References: <F6JYsIthCLwkcMtwGtY00007125@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <1029383822.3d5b268eca2b7@www.paradise.net.nz>

Quoting "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>:

> (1) - Take a look at the War of 1812 for a war in which both sides
> "won".

Funny, I use the War of 1812 as an example of a war in which almost everyone 
lost. In the long run the British failed to control American expansionism (one 
of their goals), the would-be land-grabbers failed to get any new lands, and 
the US states lost power.

The only winner I see was the US Federal government, which gained all sorts of 
cool powers, like being able to directly raise an army suitable for foreign 
adventures (rather than have to rely on the states lending their milita - fine 
for defence, lousy for land-grabs), and being able to raise taxes to pay for 
this army (and other stuff, of course).

-- 
Rupert Boleyn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 22:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Wed Aug 14 21:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators in MT
Message-ID: <000901c24410$635d0040$9d4a1c43@customer>

Anthony Jackson writes:
>I have no idea about MT, TNE mentions disintegrators but doesn't provide
stats,
>T4 doesn't even mention disintegrators, GT does have disintegrators though
I'm
>not certain whether they use GURPS disintegrators or GURPS displacers for
the
>mechanic.

The MT Referee's Manuel has disintegrators in the craft construction rules.
Spinal mounts at TL 17 to 21, bay weapons: 100tn at TL17 and 50tn TL 18, and
turrets at TL 18.

The Rebellion Sourcebook has a TL 13 battleship that was upgraded to a
disintegrator and a TL 15 fusion PP.

The Referee's Companion has a technology chart that has disintegrator rifle
at TL 18, disintegrator at TL 19, and disintegrator wands at TL 20.

I imagine T4 doesn't have disintegrators because the general TL is to low.
TNE might not have rules for them because of the TL regression.

Daniel Tackett writes:
>The only mention I've seen in the LBBs is on page 14
>of book 3. It says disintegrators are TL 16.

TL 16 might be when the first prototypes appear.

John Scarlett
----------------------------------
I'd be unstoppable, if I just had the energy to get started.





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 02:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Thu Aug 15 01:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <memo.857356@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPCENLEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Isn't this the card system used in TNE and the old GDW house rules to
determine NPC character and motivations?

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Megan Robertson
Sent: Wednesday, 14 August 2002 10:42 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Cc: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk
Subject: Re: [TML] Too much time on our hands


In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0208140920470.2949-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
> > A detailed and self-consistent set of rules for NPC psychology in
> > general would be handy, including motivations, internal conflicts,
> > biases, thought patterns, and personality traits that aren't simple
> > advantages or disadvantages.  Non-human psychology as well, of course.
>
> Hmm...  I never thought of that before, but I think if something like
> that
> were well-done it would become indispensable for every RPG ever
> published.

Never thought of codifying this: it just kinda flows naturally when I am
creating a scenario.... or (often) while running it! My notes are covered
with scribbles that I make during play to ensure that I remember what each
of the NPCs is like the next time the characters meet him.

Another trick I use is 'name-triggers' - in the game I'm running at the
moment, there's an Internal Security officer who has the same name as my
boss at work. I can give him the same style, attitudes, etc., he just
happens to have a different job... but he approaches it in the same way.
The name alone triggers this.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 02:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 01:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <d1a4cd4887.d4887d1a4c@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "DeGraff, Jesse" <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com>
Date: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 11:08 pm
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D

> Okay kiddies, you get to help design the chaos.  I'm trying to 
> decide on the official Famille Spofulam logo font for the licensed 
> merchandise I'm developing for sale.  Here's a page with the 
> contestants so far:
> http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/famillespofulam/

For M:1100+ products, I'd go with vdub.

OTOH, for M:0-era products, I'm split between beware and 
supersoulfighter.

At any rate, I would suggest using different fonts for different eras; 
this nicely mimics the periodic revamping of corporate logos to match 
current esthetics.

<<snip>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 02:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Thu Aug 15 01:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
References: <20020814224103.11821.52220.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D5B69A8.879843DC@ameritech.net>

> From: "DeGraff, Jesse" <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com>
> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 13:08:34 -0700

> Okay kiddies, you get to help design the chaos.  I'm trying to 
> decide on the official Famille Spofulam logo font for the licensed 
> merchandise I'm developing for sale.  

I vote for new briliant or vdub. 

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 03:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug 15 02:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Beanstalks in 15 years!
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020813214526.02abb008@192.168.0.1> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814211556.02ad2008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <003a01c2443f$ce2736a0$8d0dbd50@martinjd>

Could someone repost the original URL please?

Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-to-the-Masses
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 03:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 02:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Vilani Chess
In-Reply-To: <20020814190010.7519.86867.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17fHH6-0005pD-0U@anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net>

> As I mentioned yesterday, this is something I'm working up for inclusion as
> a sidebar to GT: Nobles, as a bit of chrome. I am also thinking about a
> "pure" Vilani boardgame, but that will probably be a loosely disguised lift

A long time ago, back in the glory days of the Trav Culture list (anybody else remember that the vilani for 'chair' is 'irish' ? :o) I came up with a Vilani boardgame. In fact, having just checked, it was more than 4 years ago! <Gulp> *Now* I'm starting to feel old... :o/

Anyway, the game is called Uneshma, and it's described on the following page -

http://www.geocities.com/Rob_Day/uneshma.htm

'Learn to play the game of Uneshma! A traditional Vilani game for players of all ages. 
"Takes seconds to learn, but years to master." - Digiri Girasar (Vland Sector Champion, 1112 - 1114)'

Rob.
(What? It's time for my yearly post to the list *already*?! :o)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 04:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Aug 15 03:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
In-Reply-To: <179.d06fe88.2a8c76a3@cs.com>
References: <179.d06fe88.2a8c76a3@cs.com>
Message-ID: <20020815112422.1fa92ea7.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 23:14:43 -0400 (EDT)
Damage169@cs.com wrote:

> At least that means there's a body left.

How do you feel about the word  "memorial" ?   :-)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 04:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Aug 15 03:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Vilani Chess
In-Reply-To: <E17fHH6-0005pD-0U@anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net>
References: <20020814190010.7519.86867.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <E17fHH6-0005pD-0U@anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net>
Message-ID: <20020815205803.A25298@freeman.little-possums.net>

rob@glisten.demon.co.uk wrote:
> 'Learn to play the game of Uneshma! A traditional Vilani game for
> players of all ages.  "Takes seconds to learn, but years to master."
> - Digiri Girasar (Vland Sector Champion, 1112 - 1114)'

It looks like a very good game for Vilani.  As far as I can tell,
either player can force a perpetual stalemate :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 05:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Thu Aug 15 04:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F165E@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <008801c2444d$bf6568e0$7400a8c0@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "DeGraff, Jesse" <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 9:08 PM
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D


> Okay kiddies, you get to help design the chaos.  I'm trying to decide on
the official Famille Spofulam logo font for the licensed merchandise I'm
developing for sale.  Here's a page with the contestants so far:
> http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/famillespofulam/
> The logo design I'm considering (and to an extent the printing viability)
calls for a blocky, low-slung font.  The examples above are just what happen
to be on my machine that I think look reasonably cool.  What are your
thoughts?  I'll give folks a week to think about it or suggest cooler
alternatives, then I'm off like a bull in a china shop to get this stuff
released.  It's only two months behind the schedule I'd originally set for
myself 8<;^)
>
> Best,
> Jesse

1) borg9

2) vdub

3) newbrilliant

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 06:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thing)
Date: Thu Aug 15 05:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F165E@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <000f01c24459$d3e56700$0100a8c0@pentacle>

On Wednesday, August 14, 2002 1:08 PM
DeGraff, Jesse said,

>  What are your thoughts?  I'll give folks a week to think about it or
suggest cooler alternatives,
> then I'm off like a bull in a china shop to get this stuff released.  It's
only two months behind the
>  schedule I'd originally set for myself 8<;^)


Although I like the looks of vdub, the use of the dots can make the text a
little difficult to interpret.

Overall my favorite font is beware.  It's easily readable, but still retains
a fairly slick appearance.  I also like the way the beginning and ending
characters have some slope to the edges so that you can place the name
within more interesting bounding boxes without generating too much negative
space.

I also like freya, but it seems more like the team polo shirt font than one
that would be used on coffee mugs and various other spiffs and merchandise.

G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
Grand Master of the Electron Flow
Minion to SheChemist and GothBunny
==========================
"There ain't no rules around here.  We're trying to accomplish
something." -Thomas Edison


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 07:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff D. Greenly)
Date: Thu Aug 15 06:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
Message-ID: <sd5b6efc.064@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>

At 01:36 PM 8/14/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>>Mark Urbin wrote:
>>>At 12:26 AM 8/14/2002 -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>>In mail you write:
>>>> > So far, the official numbers seem to indicate that there's not
an
>>>> > awful lot of trade in relative terms.  This is not awfully
surprising:
>>>> > it's expensive to put stuff up into orbit and expensive to ship
it.
>>>>Huh? What makes you think it's expensive to get stuff into orbit?
>>>>I seem to recall someone running the numbers a while back and
having it
>>>>come out cheaper than shipping by rail.
>>>Isn't the access to launch facilities a bit more limited than rail
access?
>>Not when an air-raft can reach orbit from *anywhere*.
>
>Whoops! An actual Traveller thread!
>Yup, getting to orbit is cheap with anti-grav.

This statement raises an interesting question for me. If one can obtain
orbit from just about anywhere on a planet's surface cheaply and
relatively effortlessly, why have downports, except in a frontier
setting? What useful purpose do they serve? The rail analogy mentioned
above is a good one. Towns and industries sprung up along rail lines.
When the interstate highway system came together it became much more
economically viable to ship goods via truck, as you weren't tied into
the rail system's locations and tariffs. The rail systems still work for
large freight and for multi-modal transport of goods, but with anti-grav
it's just a matter of building a bigger lifter, right? Does a downport
serve as a hub? If so, why? If I am a factory owner and I need parts
regularly shipped to me from Regina, why would I want to travel halfway
around the world to pick up goods at the downport that could have been
picked up in orbit? 

Jeff

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 07:15:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 06:15:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <4c.ffdf30c.2a8d0316@cs.com>

In a message dated 8/14/02 10:42:38 PM Central Daylight Time, 
lesbates@minn.net writes:


> TC needs to work on character names. Would you believe there's a Colonel
> Strokov?
> 
> 
> Les
> 

Just so long as there's no Colonel Lingus.

Doug G


--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 07:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Aug 15 06:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22DFA@USCHM203>

>"Jeff D. Greenly" wrote:

>If so, why? If I am a factory owner and I need parts
>regularly shipped to me from Regina, why would I want to travel halfway
>around the world to pick up goods at the downport that could have been
>picked up in orbit?

It depends on how your goods are shipped. Are they a small part of a large
cargo shipment, or a single cargo. If I'm a merchant captain, I'm not going
to hand deliver every cargo individually to each recipient. I'm going to
drop it off at a central receiving area.
And how big are the surface-to orbit grav vehicles? In my experience---okay,
imaginary experience--- few grav vehicles come anywhere near the size of
starships. For small cargos, or UPS/FEDEX type delivery, I could see this,
but for shipping large objects and equipment it is going to take a fairly
large ship.
Big merchant ships are going to land at large facilities that can refuel,
repair, and maintain them, just as big airlines don't service small rural
airports (this isn't just a matter of runway size, but also because it is
simply not economical to do so). 
Some urban or protected wilderness areas might simply bar any sort of
atmospheric flight in the vicinity.
There is also local customs and immigration organizations to consider.
Customs officials would rather have a limited amount of landing points on a
world, rather than spreading their agents and offices all over the planet.
Of course, orbit would be a good place for this sort of thing, then ships
could be free to land wherever they want, but I would tend to think that
large centralized starports would be the rule in most cases.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 08:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Aug 15 07:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
Message-ID: <F145NYxX60VJe2NrLaL0000e4cf@hotmail.com>

From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

     "Funny, I use the War of 1812 as an example of a war in which almost 
everyone lost."


Mr. Boleyn,

     It was a nearly useless war, wasn't it?

     "In the long run the British failed to control American expansionism 
(one of their goals), the would-be land-grabbers failed to get any new 
lands, and the US states lost power."

     Well, the UK did turn the US aside from Canada and the US finally 
convinced the UK to withdraw from the Old Northwest (Michigan, Indiana, 
Illinois, Ohio, etc.) as promised in the treaty that ended the Revolutionary 
War.  There's a win-win for you.
     The UK did keep US from lifting, or continuing to ignore, the 
Continental Blockade (although by 1812 that was mostly moot), but the US 
finally gained true recognition of it's sovereignty from the UK.  Another 
win-win there.
     Most importantly, both sides began to talk to one another as 
governments.  Trade agreements, diplomacy, and treaties resulted.  The UK 
finally realized that the US wasn't going to go away and the US somewhat got 
over it's Anglo-phobia.  Win-win-win!

     "The only winner I see was the US Federal government, which gained all 
sorts of cool powers,..."

     That was bound to happen eventually.  Either the War of 1812 or some 
other crisis would have triggered it.

     "...like being able to directly raise an army suitable for foreign
>adventures (rather than have to rely on the states lending their milita - 
>fine for defence, lousy for land-grabs),..."

     Rather poor at both, I'm afraid.  Militia, at the US variety, was 
horrible.  It was more of a social and/or civic group.  You joined to fit in 
with or get ahead in your community, like the Masons or Anglican church.  
They'd defend their homes (maybe) but they wouldn't defend the next town, 
county, or state.
     Most of the '46-'48 landgrabs (some of our best) were done with either 
regular or irregular volunteers.  Doniphan's Thousand is a good example of 
the irregular type, just a bunch of wild boys joined up for an adventure.  
The state contingents sent to Tyler's and Scott's armies were not the actual 
state militia formations, but rather volunteers from the both pre-existing 
militia groups and the general population formed into new, 
for-this-war-only, regiments.
     Getting back to Our Olde Game, assuming both the Imperial and Consulate 
overall war aims (hold onto the Marches & evict colonies/form buffer zone), 
I'd say BOTH sides won Frontier Wars Three, Four, and Five.  You could even 
make an argument for the Imperium winning numbers One and Two.  After all, 
the Zhos didn't take advantage of a civil war wracked Imperium to set the 
new border somewhere in the Corridor Sector.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 09:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Long)
Date: Thu Aug 15 08:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Stripmime ....
In-Reply-To: <20020814190010.7519.86867.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000401c2446e$9e034160$49a3073e@MakaiSoft.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of
> tml-request@travellercentral.com
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 7
> DATE: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 17:16:40 +0000 (GMT)
> From: "Mark Urbin" <eclipse@urbin.net>
> To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
> SUBJECT: Re: [TML] Beanstalks in 15 years!
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
> text/plain
> --- StripMime Errors ---
> A message with no plaintext section was received.
> The entire body of the message was removed.  Please
> resend the email using plaintext formatting
> ---
>
> --__--__--
>
Dear Listmom/Listmom alternate

We seem to still have problems with the StripMime program. This time it's
disembowelling Mrk Urbin's posts....

Andy

--
 Andrew Long            Email   AndrewGLong@Yahoo.com (Preferred)
 1 Court Hill                   AndyLong@Ecossetel.com
 Taunton                Phone   +44 (7817) 533382 (Mobile/UK)
 TA1 4SX                        +44 (1823) 337322 (Home/UK)
 England                        (+971 (50) 521 3651 Mobile/UAE)
--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 09:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (markc@peak.org)
Date: Thu Aug 15 08:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <303330-220028415152019911@M2W041.mail2web.com>

Jesse, I think "beware" is definitely the right choice=2E

BTW, I want your TrueType files for *all* those fonts=2E :^)

    - Mark C=2E



--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 09:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug 15 08:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Qorld Queries
Message-ID: <20020815153108.90083.qmail@web20901.mail.yahoo.com>

I have several worlds that I was wondering if there
are landgrabs for.  Also, if anyone knows of any
official information for any of these worlds, I would
appreciate that also.

I believe this is data from 1116.  If anyone has any
information on any of these worlds, I would greatly
appreciate a reference.

Spinward Marches:
2536     Squanine       A300550-B
2537     Dobham         A450457-A
2733     Edenelt        A4638BD-B
2936     Hammermium     A5525AB-B
3029     Pallique       A511965-E
3039     Youghal        AA95365-B
3235     Trin           A894A96-F

Deneb:
0233     Inkekush       A140548-E
0235     Saguenay       B438256-F
0332     Aosta          A669236-C
0729     Norg           A000114-D
0731     Qevar          A2326AE-F

Thanks,
Paul



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 09:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Long)
Date: Thu Aug 15 08:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Clancy books
In-Reply-To: <20020815131503.28324.59281.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000601c24472$49f5c800$49a3073e@MakaiSoft.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 22:43:23 -0500
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> From: Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net>
> Subject: Re: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
<Snip>
> 
> I just finished Red Rabbit by Tom Clancy today. Something 
> about a plot to
> assassinate the Pope.
> 
> TC needs to work on character names. Would you believe 
> there's a Colonel
> Strokov?
> 
Amazon in the Uk says it isn't available for two more weeks

Doh.

Andy
--
 Andrew Long            Email   AndrewGLong@Yahoo.com (Preferred)
 1 Court Hill                   AndyLong@Ecossetel.com
 Taunton                Phone   +44 (7817) 533382 (Mobile/UK)
 TA1 4SX                        +44 (1823) 337322 (Home/UK)
 England                        (+971 (50) 521 3651 Mobile/UAE)
--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 09:45:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 08:45:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Vilani Chess
In-Reply-To: <20020815131503.28324.59281.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17fMna-000DYG-0X@anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net>

> It looks like a very good game for Vilani.  As far as I can tell,
> either player can force a perpetual stalemate :)

That's why extra pieces are brought into play every now and again. Having said that, I just skimmed the rules when I read them today (rather than reading them properly) so there is a fair chance I missed something when I originally wrote them....

Rob.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 09:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Aug 15 08:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
In-Reply-To: <303330-220028415152019911@M2W041.mail2web.com>
References: <303330-220028415152019911@M2W041.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <20020815175632.32b51c8f.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Thu, 15 Aug 2002 11:20:19 -0400
"markc@peak.org" <markc@peak.org> wrote:

> Jesse, I think "beware" is definitely the right choice.
> 
> BTW, I want your TrueType files for *all* those fonts. :^)

As a matter of fact, so do I... and probably others on this list as
well.

Unless impossible for copyright reasons, could you put them in your
download area?

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 10:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Greg Porter)
Date: Thu Aug 15 09:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] EABA & Traveller
Message-ID: <B9812DA5.8D26%btrc@BTRC.NET>

Stephen,
Catching your TML thread 15 months after the fact, I can proudly announce
that EABA is now available. More than that, I talked with Marc Miller at
GenCon, and he is not averse to an EABA Traveller. Nothing has been
formalized at this point, but if you like EABA and have any blackmail
material on Marc, feel free to use it to influence his decision.

Yeah, yet another Traveller. But I am psyched about the possibility at
putting Trav on a system of my own design.

Greg Porter
BTRC


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 10:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug 15 09:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Too much time on our hands
Message-ID: <20020815163640.3552.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>

>Ick.  I *hate* that, it makes things outside the game interfere with
>the in-game events.  For instance, I'm a slow decision-maker in real
>life; you would condemn all my characters to share the same trait.

Role-playing is basically acting.  So read some Stanislavsky, think
about it, and try to _feel_ like someone who makes decisions quickly.
 You might also try some sports that require quick decision-making
and team play, like basketball or paintball.

I'm also highly confident that if you ever have the misfortune to be
a real firefight or other violence, you'll make decisions more
quickly than you imagined possible.  

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 10:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Thu Aug 15 09:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810092937.009f60f0@mindspring.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810092937.009f60f0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <p04330100b98189c49a88@[198.123.22.171]>

At 9:32 AM -0700 8/10/02, Douglas Berry wrote:
>>I can't imagine lasers making any noise at all, unless you
>>hit someone.  And if they aren't in the visible light range
>>(ideal transmission is apparently in the near infrared for
>>work in Earth's atmosphere), you won't see the near miss
>>either.
>
>I always gave them a very quiet hiss as the beam incinerated 
>dust/water vapor in the beam path.  Any noise at all drowns it out.

According to GURPS, heating of the air creates a "crack".  The one 
time I saw a high powered laser supports this.  Of course this may 
depend on wavelength....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 10:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Thu Aug 15 09:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day
In-Reply-To: <200208102032.MMN00082@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208102032.MMN00082@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <p04330101b9818a6fc2cd@[143.232.119.186]>

At 4:32 PM -0400 8/10/02, John T. Kwon wrote:
>The major clears his throat.  He knows Groth is working hard,
>but he's never gotten used to the idea of men growling and
>barking like dogs.

Actually, it won't be "like dogs".  There will be some resemblance, 
but the language needs to be more complex to carry info.  I probably 
has the same similarity to barking that our speech has to a the 
sounds a monkey can make (less if you think that the sonds a monkey 
makes are more expressive).
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 10:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Thu Aug 15 09:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
In-Reply-To: <p04330100b98189c49a88@[198.123.22.171]>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810092937.009f60f0@mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020810092937.009f60f0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020815114252.020852b0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

At 09:41 AM 8/15/02 -0700, you wrote:
>At 9:32 AM -0700 8/10/02, Douglas Berry wrote:
>>>I can't imagine lasers making any noise at all, unless you
>>>hit someone.  And if they aren't in the visible light range
>>>(ideal transmission is apparently in the near infrared for
>>>work in Earth's atmosphere), you won't see the near miss
>>>either.
>>
>>I always gave them a very quiet hiss as the beam incinerated dust/water 
>>vapor in the beam path.  Any noise at all drowns it out.
>
>According to GURPS, heating of the air creates a "crack".  The one time I 
>saw a high powered laser supports this.  Of course this may depend on 
>wavelength....
>--

It shouldn't depend on wavelength - at least not much.

If you are pumping enough energy into the beam that it will do damage at a 
distance to something, it's gonna do damage to the air molecules 
in-between, I should think.

Victor


Victor J. Raymond
Department of Sociology, ISU
vraymond@iastate.edu

--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/html
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 10:47:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Thu Aug 15 09:47:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day
Message-ID: <p04330102b9818aede040@[143.232.119.186]>

>At 4:32 PM -0400 8/10/02, John T. Kwon wrote:
>>The major clears his throat.  He knows Groth is working hard,
>>but he's never gotten used to the idea of men growling and
>>barking like dogs.
>
>Actually, it won't be "like dogs".  There will be some resemblance, 
>but the language needs to be more complex to carry info.  I probably 
>has the same similarity to barking that our speech has to a the 
>sounds a monkey can make (less if you think that the sonds a monkey 
>makes are more expressive).

Hasn't Gvegh been described as sounding like an "asthmatic dog 
coughing"?  That might work since the description implies a lot of 
wierd sounds that can carry info.  (though, remember, since Vargr can 
speak human languages, and vice versa, it should be, at least mostly, 
sounds a human can make)(.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 11:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug 15 10:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] World Queries
In-Reply-To: <20020815153108.90083.qmail@web20901.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020815170345.86776.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>

Fie and Px on my fat fingers.  And sorry for
reposting, but the previous subject war really
irritating me.

--- Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I have several worlds that I was wondering if there
> are landgrabs for.  Also, if anyone knows of any
> official information for any of these worlds, I
> would
> appreciate that also.
> 
> I believe this is data from 1116.  If anyone has any
> information on any of these worlds, I would greatly
> appreciate a reference.
> 
> Spinward Marches:
> 2536     Squanine       A300550-B
> 2537     Dobham         A450457-A
> 2733     Edenelt        A4638BD-B
> 2936     Hammermium     A5525AB-B
> 3029     Pallique       A511965-E
> 3039     Youghal        AA95365-B
> 3235     Trin           A894A96-F
> 
> Deneb:
> 0233     Inkekush       A140548-E
> 0235     Saguenay       B438256-F
> 0332     Aosta          A669236-C
> 0729     Norg           A000114-D
> 0731     Qevar          A2326AE-F
> 
> Thanks,
> Paul


__________________________________________________
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HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 11:27:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Aug 15 10:27:17 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <d2.1c818998.2a8c4ae4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020815102104.009fb480@mindspring.com>

At 08:08 PM 8/14/02 -0400, you wrote:
>  >> That's no reason to surrender the instant Jewell is lost.
>  >>
>  >> And there you go again, thinking strictly in terms of Zhodane on 
> offense,
>  >> Imperium always and forever on passive defense.
>  >
>  >Well, it's apparently been true historically, for whatever reason.
>
>Hm.  Sounds like an opportunity for a player character admiral to turn things
>around.

Remember MacArthur!


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 11:27:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Aug 15 10:27:52 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <7c.2c7a4f5c.2a8c4912@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020815101514.009e3c60@mindspring.com>

At 08:00 PM 8/14/02 -0400, you wrote:

>You are forgiven (as if you need to ask me).  But I would never continue with
>a strategy, published or not, that has produced nothing but bare draws and
>significant losses in five wars.  I certainly wouldn't stand around passively
>waiting for the next attack -- that guarantees a loss.

Remember:  The military is under the control of the civilian power 
structure.  What is to be gained by attacking the Consulate?  Nothing that 
I can see.  What would the war goals be?

>  >That, and using my lessons from over twenty years of serious research
>  >into military history.
>
>So ... how are victories obtained?

In the Marches?  For the Zhodani, keeping the Imperium off balance and 
afraid of the Zhodani.  The Imperium wants to maintain the status 
quo.  Both sides appear to be happy with the current balance of power.

The Fifth Frontier War was a clear victory for the Imperium without taking 
any more real estate than Esalin.  Why?  It shattered the Sword Worlds, and 
broke several Zhodani fleets.  The message was clear:  Attack at your own 
risk.  I think that we will now see a century of peace between the 
Consulate and the Imperium.

The goal of war is not always conquest of territory.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.
gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Author of GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces
Geek Code: tc tm tn- t4-- tg++$ ru ge+ 3i+@ c+
            jt- au pi he+ as+ so-                           



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 11:28:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Aug 15 10:28:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <sd5b6efc.064@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020815102325.009f8a40@mindspring.com>

At 09:05 AM 8/15/02 -0400, you wrote:

>This statement raises an interesting question for me. If one can obtain
>orbit from just about anywhere on a planet's surface cheaply and
>relatively effortlessly, why have downports, except in a frontier
>setting? What useful purpose do they serve? The rail analogy mentioned
>above is a good one. Towns and industries sprung up along rail lines.
>When the interstate highway system came together it became much more
>economically viable to ship goods via truck, as you weren't tied into
>the rail system's locations and tariffs. The rail systems still work for
>large freight and for multi-modal transport of goods, but with anti-grav
>it's just a matter of building a bigger lifter, right? Does a downport
>serve as a hub? If so, why? If I am a factory owner and I need parts
>regularly shipped to me from Regina, why would I want to travel halfway
>around the world to pick up goods at the downport that could have been
>picked up in orbit?

A central location for gathering freight, and for the essential services 
needed for starships.  Also it gives control over imports/exports and 
immigration.

I would think that many worlds would restrict access to orbit.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 11:30:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Aug 15 10:30:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814211647.026b8008@192.168.0.1>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208140918420.26781-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
 <20020814182158.C22124@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020815102553.009f6d70@mindspring.com>

At 09:19 PM 8/14/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Gearheading is good for game prep.  If it's there, the gearheads will use 
>and produce wonderful stuff for you.
>Once you're in the game, ya, I like quick flow too.

I've always seen gearheading as good set design.  90% of the time, it will 
go unnoticed.  But when the characters need to know what the exact airspeed 
of the ship is, or how much damage the g-carrier can sustain, then it's 
better to have those numbers at hand.

Planet design is fun because you get plots by the handful, not to mention 
local color, from the design process.



--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 11:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Rocchi)
Date: Thu Aug 15 10:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <OF16A1FA8C.C38B98D3-ON85256C16.0061644B@pok.ibm.com>

How about the 'Borg9' font - with a little 'weapons discharge sparkly' at
the end of the white break?

Joseph Paul Rocchi
IBM Global Services




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 11:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sparky)
Date: Thu Aug 15 10:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
References: <200208141347.MTJ01845@vmms1.verisignmail.com><20020815081543.B23732@freeman.little-possums.net><007801c243e1$ee731fe0$67e84242@upstairs> <20020815011002.57f51b19.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <00a701c24484$67ca7ad0$67e84242@upstairs>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jens Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
> That a photon creates an interference pattern with itself means simply
> this: That viewing a photon as a particle is not correct.

> Photons can in some situations (excitation/de-excitation of atoms for
> example) be viewed as particles, in other situations (interference
> patterns etc) they can be viewed as waves. To say that they are simply
> particles (or simply waves) is not completely true.

> Unless, off course, you consider the fact that this dual nature is
true
> for all particles...  ;-)

Ah I see. =) How does one properly view
what-I-was-mostly-taught-was-particles to be waves?

I tend to imagine waves as being always "in-motion"...and it makes it
hard for me to imagine how all the things I see around me as solid
constructs can act as waves.

Sparky



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 12:05:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Aug 15 11:05:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <00a701c24484$67ca7ad0$67e84242@upstairs>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029434651.2754.ajackson@ping>

Sparky writes:

> > Unless, off course, you consider the fact that this dual nature is
> true
> > for all particles...  ;-)
> 
> Ah I see. =) How does one properly view
> what-I-was-mostly-taught-was-particles to be waves?

Well, you can create perfectly acceptable diffraction patterns with electrons
(and, in fact, the conventional understanding of electron shells is as standing
waves about a nucleus). With larger objects it rapidly becomes difficult to
demonstrate the wave patterns because the wavelengths are very short.
> 
> I tend to imagine waves as being always "in-motion"

No, there's such a thing as a standing wave.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 12:06:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Thu Aug 15 11:06:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: High Tech Movie Making
In-Reply-To: <127.154ad830.2a8b0295@aol.com>
References: <127.154ad830.2a8b0295@aol.com>
Message-ID: <p04330103b9819d5134f4@[143.232.119.186]>

At 8:47 PM -0400 8/13/02, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
>Also, much of the "underwater" filming is actually done in the open
>air. Filming in crystal clear water looks too unrealistic

It is odd when the "real thing" doesn't look realistic.

A similar issue when you film human events.  Someone took a movie 
camera and filmed one of Zappata's raids on a train.  Apparently they 
didn't find any of the footage useful.  A real battle is too chaotic 
for a movie....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 12:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Nick Wright)
Date: Thu Aug 15 11:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Motown Keyboard Kill
Message-ID: <001901c24487$2cd05640$e4c187d9@fg>

Frankie (Munden) wrote:

"I know Loren, Martin and John,    ...."

Keyboard Kill, Sir.

I remain etc, etc.
Nick Wright



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 12:19:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Thu Aug 15 11:19:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Vilani Chess
In-Reply-To: <l03010d05b9804706017d@[192.168.1.67]>
References: <l03010d05b9804706017d@[192.168.1.67]>
Message-ID: <p04330104b9819f4fad18@[143.232.119.186]>

At 12:57 PM -0500 8/14/02, Loren Wiseman wrote:
>As I mentioned yesterday, this is something I'm working up for inclusion as
>a sidebar to GT: Nobles, as a bit of chrome. I am also thinking about a
>"pure" Vilani boardgame, but that will probably be a loosely disguised lift
>of some other ancient game, like Senet or Latrones or some such. If any of
>the TML are into chess variants, I would be interested in your opinions and
>a description of any perceived flaws with the following (short summary).

I was on the chess team.  I've seen a lot of varients, though I'm not 
sure what I remember of them.

>[insert Vilani word here] (the Starship): , Only moves if it can jump over
>pieces, and can move only to the other side of a row of one or more peices
>(of either side) in a straight line in any direction, or can end a jump by
>capturing an enemy piece. If it has no pieces to jump over, it cannot move
>(but it can capture a piece immediately adjacent to it). 2/side

One advantage of chess is that it produces involved strategies w/out 
complex movement rules (thorugh the interaction of the pieces). 
Giving a piece a conditional movement rule is contrary to the feel of 
chess.  If you want a starship feel.  Maybe the piece can move 2 
hexes in any direction, skipping intermediate hexes.  (like a 
starship jump).

>
>[insert Vilani word here] (Knight: As knight 2/side.

One old varient was to not allow a knight to jump pieces.

>
>[insert Vilani word here] (Citadel):

If you are going to have a starship, I would have a more modern 
metaphor than a "citadel".

>[insert Vilani word here] (Soldier): Pawn equivalent, but move diagonally,
>capture straight ahead, no double move or en passant.

This would loose a lot of the strategy since you can set up an 
maintain the lines.  I would keep as is.  But loosing the double move 
is fine.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 12:20:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Aug 15 11:20:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
References: <B9806BBF.69A71%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D5BF0B9.2020707@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> on 8/14/02 8:14 PM, Flykiller@aol.com at Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> 
> 
>>Ref:  "Have you ever heard that high whine with the increasing pitch that a
>>camera flash makes before it is fully charged?"
>>Player:  "Yes."
>>Ref:  "You're hearing that right now."
>>
>>And, of course, to make them nervous all you have to do is roll some dice
>>several times and not say why.
> 
> 
> 
> I've had a lot of success with rolling the dice, then announcing something
> like "You don't notice anything."

Nope rolling a huge pile of dice, counting up numbers, and thenm looking 
at them with a fiendish grin and cackling madly.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 12:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug 15 11:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Traveller Mental Picture of the Day
Message-ID: <20020815182824.55023.qmail@web20417.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>

>Hasn't Gvegh been described as sounding like an "asthmatic dog 
>coughing"?  That might work since the description implies a lot of 
>wierd sounds that can carry info.  (though, remember, since Vargr
>can speak human languages, and vice versa, it should be, at least
>mostly, sounds a human can make)(.

Vargr always seem to sound like Scooby Doo when I play them.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 12:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Aug 15 11:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Origins of the X-Boat System
References: <3D5B1574.CC96C328@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3D5BF68D.5000807@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Roseberry wrote:
>>Now we know the real reason the network was set up.
> 
> 
> http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20020812/chinapost.html
> 
> Ah yes. The eternal persistence of death and taxes.
> How much you wanna bet they still have undelivered mail;)

Nothing at all...notice these were found dumped down an abandoned well...;-P

We had some mail carriers in Yonkers like that :-(


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 12:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Aug 15 11:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Traveller Mental Picture of the Day
References: <20020815182824.55023.qmail@web20417.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3D5BF737.3050907@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>
> Vargr always seem to sound like Scooby Doo when I play them.
> 
Ruh Roh!

Saw a place selling 'WWSD' dog collars the other day...;-)


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 13:03:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 12:03:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Vargr philology
Message-ID: <105.1a52e7aa.2a8d5494@aol.com>

I've just found the origins of the word "vargr" (from Tom Shippey's biography 
of Tolkien). 

Was its choice as a name down to serendipity, research or a good knowledge of 
Old Norse?

Just curious.

Charles

(Vargr, as I now know, is an Old Norse word meaning both "wolf" and "raider")

I addressed some cheerful chit-chat at the man opposite but was rewarded with 
grunt. I tried the man next to me but he just looked at the gentleman I had 
tried first and said "Do you know what he's talking about?" At this point I 
realised I was getting out my depth but the Dean stepped in and saved me, "Oh 
don't worry about it" he said, "They're mathematicians - we never talk to 
them."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 13:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Thu Aug 15 12:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style
In-Reply-To: <F96q8j0tFKWV5EWnZp7000053c7@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020815192125.54120.qmail@web11803.mail.yahoo.com>

> 
>    Why yes, Frankie, I would *certainly* appreciate
> a copy of the issue 108 
I would also like a copy, 
thanks.
Dan


=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 14:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Thu Aug 15 13:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F1669@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Okay, JR gets the "Hardest Vote to Record" award ;)
Jesse


> 
> While my first impression was to agree with you on the Beware
> typeface, vdub or newbrilliant, being less literal and more graphic in
> design, would both appear to be more amenable to a heavily graphic
> logo.
> 
> That being said, I'll also admit to a fondness for the appearance of
> qswitchax.  It is nice, readable and the underplayed
> descenders/ascenders keep it interesting.
> 
> Given that the Famille is an old, well-established and respected
> venture, you may want to consider more traditional typefaces.  The
> typefaces you are presently favoring might become as embarrassing as a
> Peter Max designed corporate logo would appear to today's eyes.
> 
> -- 
> JR Holmes
> jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 14:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Thu Aug 15 13:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F166A@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Hmmm, interesting idea.  I'll have to look at what that'll do to the cost...
Thanks for the input!
Jesse

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Damage169@cs.com [mailto:Damage169@cs.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 7:27 PM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
> 
> 
> Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com writes:
> 
> 
> 
> > Rrrriiiiiiight.  1.I don't have a font editor  2.I've never 
> edited a font 
> > before  3.I don't really have TIME to learn how to edit 
> fonts right now ;)  
> > 4.I'd kinda' like the stuff to be readable by mundanes  
> 5.BUT, maybe a few 
> > selected products in pure Vilani would be cool too!! ;D
> > 
> > Best,
> > Jesse
> > 
> 
> How about, front of shirt in English, back has Vilani? Or vice-versa.
> 
> Doug Grimes
> 
> 
> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
> multipart/alternative
>   text/plain (text body -- kept)
>   text/html
> ---
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 14:09:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Thu Aug 15 13:09:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F166B@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!
Jesse

 
> Les Bates writes:
> 
> 
> > Beware, followed by Goodtimes, followed by Vdub.
> > 
> > What font is Ditzie's Favorite?
> > 
> > 
> > Les
> > 
> 
> Why, an ele-font, of course.  (g,d, & rlh)   :)
> 
> Doug Grimes
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 14:11:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Thu Aug 15 13:11:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F166C@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Even more ROFLMAO!!!
Jesse

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Leslie Bates [mailto:lesbates@minn.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 8:36 PM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: RE: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
> 
> 
> "DeGraff, Jesse" <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> wrote:
> >You think I'm gonna' ask her?  Are you nuts?!?  
> >Last time I talked to her I was in the hospital 
> >for 3 months.  And that was wearing armor!  ;)
> >
> >Jesse
> 
> >> What font is Ditzie's Favorite?
> 
> "Ditzie!"
> 
> "Yes Uncle Dennis?"
> 
> "How many times do I and Uncle Hengie have to tell you to not blow up
> temporary employees and independant contractors?"
> 
> "Two thousand four hundred and seventy two."
> 
> That sounded about right to Dennis.
> 
> "Now be nice to Mr. DeGraff. Promise?"
> 
> Ditzie crossed her fingers behind her back.
> 
> "I promise, Uncle Dennis."
> 
> 
> Les ;)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 14:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Thu Aug 15 13:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F166D@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Hmmm, another interesting idea.  I've been through a ground-up corporate VI change, so I can certainly see it happening in the TU!
Jesse

> -----Original Message-----
> From: john.groth@us.army.mil [mailto:john.groth@us.army.mil]
> Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 1:39 AM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "DeGraff, Jesse" <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com>
> Date: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 11:08 pm
> Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
> 
> > Okay kiddies, you get to help design the chaos.  I'm trying to 
> > decide on the official Famille Spofulam logo font for the licensed 
> > merchandise I'm developing for sale.  Here's a page with the 
> > contestants so far:
> > 
> http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/famillespofulam/
> 
> For M:1100+ products, I'd go with vdub.
> 
> OTOH, for M:0-era products, I'm split between beware and 
> supersoulfighter.
> 
> At any rate, I would suggest using different fonts for 
> different eras; 
> this nicely mimics the periodic revamping of corporate logos to match 
> current esthetics.
> 
> <<snip>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 14:15:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Thu Aug 15 13:15:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F166E@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

I can arrange that :)
Jesse

> -----Original Message-----
> From: markc@peak.org [mailto:markc@peak.org]
> Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 8:20 AM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] Re: Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
> 
> 
> Jesse, I think "beware" is definitely the right choice.
> 
> BTW, I want your TrueType files for *all* those fonts. :^)
> 
>     - Mark C.
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 14:18:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Thu Aug 15 13:18:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F166F@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Truth be told, I have no idea where they came from :\  I'm assuming they were from Office 2k, FrontPage, Premiere, etc.  So I'm pretty sure posting them for download wouldn't be a Good Idea (tm).
Jesse

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jens Rydholm [mailto:jenry023@student.liu.se]
> Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 8:57 AM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
> 
> 
> On Thu, 15 Aug 2002 11:20:19 -0400
> "markc@peak.org" <markc@peak.org> wrote:
> 
> > Jesse, I think "beware" is definitely the right choice.
> > 
> > BTW, I want your TrueType files for *all* those fonts. :^)
> 
> As a matter of fact, so do I... and probably others on this list as
> well.
> 
> Unless impossible for copyright reasons, could you put them in your
> download area?
> 
> * Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
> | jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
> | ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
> * http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 14:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Thu Aug 15 13:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F166F@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Truth be told, I have no idea where they came from :\  I'm assuming they were from Office 2k, FrontPage, Premiere, etc.  So I'm pretty sure posting them for download wouldn't be a Good Idea (tm).
Jesse

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jens Rydholm [mailto:jenry023@student.liu.se]
> Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 8:57 AM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
> 
> 
> On Thu, 15 Aug 2002 11:20:19 -0400
> "markc@peak.org" <markc@peak.org> wrote:
> 
> > Jesse, I think "beware" is definitely the right choice.
> > 
> > BTW, I want your TrueType files for *all* those fonts. :^)
> 
> As a matter of fact, so do I... and probably others on this list as
> well.
> 
> Unless impossible for copyright reasons, could you put them in your
> download area?
> 
> * Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
> | jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
> | ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
> * http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 14:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Thu Aug 15 13:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020814152928.009dd310@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0208151342540.874-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>

On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Douglas Berry wrote:
>
> Oh, don't get me wrong - Iove rules.
                           ^^^^

Only after doing away with his father Saturn(Cronus),
by Iupiter.

;)

Rob


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 14:46:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Thu Aug 15 13:46:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020806120321.46dfdc16@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <000101c2449c$de146260$0c0a0a0a@glidenet.com>

That's roughly the way I remember it!!!

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Douglas E. Berry
Sent: Tuesday, 06 August, 2002 12:03
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Cc: Kirsten M. Berry
Subject: Re: [TML] Silly Question

At 02:13 AM 8/6/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>Hi,
>
>This probably displays the depths of my ignorance, but can anybody give
me a
>description of how a unit's change of command ceremony goes?  I am
looking
>specifically for the US Navy's protocol, but any nation or service is
welcomed.

Well, from my point of view, an Army change of command ceremony (c.
1985)
consists of the following:

1. Polish brass.

2. Drop off dress greens at dry cleaners.

3. Hear that the order has been changed, we'll be in battle gear.

4. Curse about blowing $15 on dry cleaning.

5. Drop off good BDUs at dry cleaners.  (Good meaning these puppies will
never see the field, and are worn only for inspections.)

6. Pay some kid at the PX ten bucks to spit shine my jump boots.

7. Run to Ranger Joe's for clean TA-50 pieces.

8. Get haircut.

9. Practise marching.

10. Get assigned to be a roadgaurd again, due to lack of marching
ability.

11. Get inspected.

12. March to Brigade parade ground.

13. Stand in formation.

14. Old Bastard makes a speech.

15. Wonder what difference all this marching will make when the Soviets
come over the border.

16. Something involving the unit colors, but you can't see.

17. New Bastard makes a speech.  Officers love to make speeches.

18. Fall asleep at attention.

19. Wake up at Parade Rest.

20. March back to barracks, replace dart board picture of Old Bastard
with
New Bastard, get drunk.

(I'm in a silly mood today.)
-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Animals who are not penguins can only wish they were.
-Chicago reader, 10/15/82
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 14:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Thu Aug 15 13:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <200208070000.MFJ02183@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <000201c2449e$282e26f0$0c0a0a0a@glidenet.com>

the sergeant major kept me and a couple of other guys in the 
rear of the formation.  we were supposed to watch out for 
people about to fall out, and as discreetly as possible, move 
forward and get them out of formation.

hot sun, standing in one place for a long time, etc...

==================================

Yes, I remember those days well...
Standing at attention or parade rest for more than an hour in ARIZONA
during the SUMMER! It was 115 degrees outside. Just WHAT were these
people thinking? Soldiers would drop, and were discretely dragged on
their heals to the rear of the formation. One unit had so many people
drop, you would swear they were human pins in some twisted game of
bowling.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 14:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 13:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <13.1003b9e5.2a8d6f2a@aol.com>

 >> You are forgiven (as if you need to ask me).  But I would never
 >> continue with a strategy, published or not, that has produced
 >> nothing but bare draws and significant losses in five wars.  I
 >> certainly wouldn't stand around passively waiting for the next
 >> attack -- that guarantees a loss. 
 >
 >How odd. The western allies were the attacked in WWI and they won.

Not the French.  They took same the view you do.  The allies won because the 
United States and Soviet Union were unreachable (in different ways), and 
therefore unbeatable once they ramped up production.  But even with this the 
allies and the United States almost lost anyway, and were losing until they 
took the offensive and forced Germany and Japan into defensive roles from 
which they were unable to escape.

 >>  >That, and using my lessons from over twenty years of serious research
 >>  >into military history.
 >> 
 >> So ... how are victories obtained?
 >
 >By not losing.

I'm sure that after 20 years you can be a little more explicative.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 15:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Thu Aug 15 14:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEMDEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <000001c2449f$eca94400$0c0a0a0a@glidenet.com>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Terry Carlino
Sent: Monday, 05 August, 2002 21:50
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] The big fleet debate

>Yes; either remove the chemical warhead or replace it with a fusion
>warhead.  A chemical explosive makes little sense.  Even the standard
>missiles accelerate to 72 km/s in the first round -- putting a
>chemical explosive in them is a bit like putting a spring-loaded
>boxing glove on an anti-tank penetrator.
>
>
The only reason I can think of is to allow you to self destruct the
missile
if necessary.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost


_______________________________________________

Unless of course the missiles actually have proximity fuses.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 15:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 14:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <172.d0dae41.2a8d729e@aol.com>

 >>  >> That's no reason to surrender the instant Jewell is lost.
 >>  >> 
 >>  >> And there you go again, thinking strictly in terms of Zhodane on 
offense, 
 >>  >> Imperium always and forever on passive defense.
 >>  >
 >>  >Well, it's apparently been true historically, for whatever reason.
 >> 
 >> Hm.  Sounds like an opportunity for a player character admiral to
 >> turn things around. 
 >
 >And then lose his job and get stripped of all his titles for 
 >precipitating a general free-for-all with the Zhos instead of the 
 >controlled 'border disputes' that had been the case for the last few 
 >centuries.

So, the Zhodies are free to attack at will, while the Imperials are afraid of 
precipitating "border disputes".  Sounds like a policy tailor-made in 
Zhodane.  Maybe it is.

No, I wouldn't lose my job and be stripped of all my titles.  I'd resign, and 
I'd say why.  Loudly.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 15:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Thu Aug 15 14:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <E17bJb8-0007Wi-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <000101c244a0$7698d9a0$0c0a0a0a@glidenet.com>

> 
>Time-Travel is a huge no-no. Do I have >something against it? 

Sure I allow time travel in my universe.
Everyone travels FORWARD.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 15:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Aug 15 14:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
In-Reply-To: <F145NYxX60VJe2NrLaL0000e4cf@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D5CC354.15547.2B4BCA@localhost>

On 15 Aug 2002 at 14:10, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      Well, the UK did turn the US aside from Canada and the US finally 
> convinced the UK to withdraw from the Old Northwest (Michigan, Indiana, 
> Illinois, Ohio, etc.) as promised in the treaty that ended the Revolutionary 
> War.  There's a win-win for you.

Sort of. It was a loss for what later became Canada, which would've got 
most of the Great Lakes area and westwards - all or most of what is now 
north-central and north-west USA. The local indians also almost 
certainly 'lost' worse than they would've under british rule.

>      Rather poor at both, I'm afraid.  Militia, at the US variety,
> was horrible.  It was more of a social and/or civic group.  You
> joined to fit in with or get ahead in your community, like the
> Masons or Anglican church.  They'd defend their homes (maybe) but
> they wouldn't defend the next town, county, or state. 
>
>      Most of the '46-'48 landgrabs (some of our best) were done with
> either regular or irregular volunteers.  Doniphan's Thousand is a
> good example of the irregular type, just a bunch of wild boys joined
> up for an adventure.  The state contingents sent to Tyler's and
> Scott's armies were not the actual state militia formations, but
> rather volunteers from the both pre-existing militia groups and the
> general population formed into new, for-this-war-only, regiments. 

Still a form of state milita, as opposed to a federal funded 
professional army. It's funny that this sort of regiment was okay, but 
'mercenary' units weren't, given that the former were effectively a 
mercenary unit anyway.

>      Getting back to Our Olde Game, assuming both the Imperial and
> Consulate overall war aims (hold onto the Marches & evict
> colonies/form buffer zone), I'd say BOTH sides won Frontier Wars
> Three, Four, and Five.  You could even make an argument for the
> Imperium winning numbers One and Two.  After all, the Zhos didn't
> take advantage of a civil war wracked Imperium to set the new border
> somewhere in the Corridor Sector. 

I think the Imperium lost FWs one and two, because they were booted 
from territory they claimed as theirs, and AFAICT they had no goals 
aside from resisting attack. Actually that lack of clear goal could 
well be why they lost, just as the lack of any goal other than 'repel 
the Imperial Scum at any cost' late-war policy was one of the 
contributing factors in the Solomani loss of the Rim War. I think the 
Zhos stopping when they did had more to do with having achieved their 
goals and having the sense/caution not to get over-extended in a mad 
dash corewards that could well have left them wrong-footed in a general 
started by a panicked Imperial core.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 15:19:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Thu Aug 15 14:19:38 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
In-Reply-To: <20805.143023.3i7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <000201c244a1$8fe66660$0c0a0a0a@glidenet.com>

>>In real life, the Army saw fit to conduct a psychological 
>>evaluation, and on the commander's recommendation, I was sent 
>>to sniper school.  Later, when I became a software 
>>consultant...
_______________________________________________
Please tell us where you live, so we can all make sure that you are not
our neighbor.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 15:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug 15 14:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
Message-ID: <200208152127.MVU00119@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Shawn R Sears says
>Please tell us where you live, so we can all make sure that 
>you are not our neighbor.

Actually, if you've been to either the Army or Marine Sniper 
training, I would regard you as less likely to do something 
stupid with a rifle than almost anyone else.  I don't believe 
the selection process (or the dedication necessary to 
graduate) is favorable to either the "really stupid" or 
the "really crazy".

It runs contrary to what I often see in roleplaying - the 
person with the high gun skill is often the first to use it - 
and get in a lot of trouble.  Go figure.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 15:30:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Aug 15 14:30:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <13.1003b9e5.2a8d6f2a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D5CC60E.782.35F127@localhost>

On 15 Aug 2002 at 16:55, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>  >> You are forgiven (as if you need to ask me).  But I would never
>  >> continue with a strategy, published or not, that has produced
>  >> nothing but bare draws and significant losses in five wars.  I
>  >> certainly wouldn't stand around passively waiting for the next
>  >> attack -- that guarantees a loss. 
>  >
>  >How odd. The western allies were the attacked in WWI and they won.
> 
> Not the French.  They took same the view you do.  The allies won because the 
> United States and Soviet Union were unreachable (in different ways), and 
> therefore unbeatable once they ramped up production.  But even with this the 
> allies and the United States almost lost anyway, and were losing until they 
> took the offensive and forced Germany and Japan into defensive roles from 
> which they were unable to escape.

World War One, not World War Two. And on tactical - strategic level 
Germany nearly won WWI by adopting a fairly defensive posture and 
encouraging the western allies to attack. In WWII the Soviet Union wore 
the Germans out by retreating (generally considered a defensive move) 
until they were worn out (and the Soviets had run out of room). Same in 
the Napoleonic Wars.

As WWII, the French defense was weak due to poor use of their armour 
and a defensive line that was flawed for mainly political reasons 
(can't offend our friends by putting them on the outside of a barbed 
wire fence).
 
> I'm sure that after 20 years you can be a little more explicative.

My mil-history studies are only about 15 years old - Doug's got a bit 
of a head start on me.
-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 15:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Aug 15 14:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
In-Reply-To: <200208152127.MVU00119@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029447384.1653.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:

> Actually, if you've been to either the Army or Marine Sniper 
> training, I would regard you as less likely to do something 
> stupid with a rifle than almost anyone else.

Well, being selected for sniper training does generally imply that the people
doing the selection think you have the mentality to be able to look closely at
people and then shoot them, which is one of those mental traits that make other
people nervous.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 15:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Aug 15 14:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <172.d0dae41.2a8d729e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D5CC804.14711.3D990A@localhost>

On 15 Aug 2002 at 17:09, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> So, the Zhodies are free to attack at will, while the Imperials are afraid of 
> precipitating "border disputes".  Sounds like a policy tailor-made in 
> Zhodane.  Maybe it is.

No, the Imperium could start a 'border dispute' if it wanted, but a 
serious move into Zho territory could well trigger something neither 
side wants. Remeber that the Zhos had actually been in that regoin of 
space well before the Imperium, and their side of the broder probably 
isn't quite so much of a quaint backwater as the Imperial side. Thus 
they'll tend to be a lot more sensitive to invasion.

Raiding and broder adjustments are one thing, movement on and past 
Chronor are quite another.

For that reason I think that if the Zhos had got what they wanted in 
the FFW if they didn't offer to return Rhylanor and allow the Jewells 
to be allied to the Imperium they could well have been in another, more 
major, war with the Imperium in the near future, as taking a couple of 
subsectors could well provoke outrage in the core.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 15:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Aug 15 14:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <3D5CC60E.782.35F127@localhost>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029447665.6561.ajackson@ping>

Rupert Boleyn writes:

> World War One, not World War Two.

WWI was a war notable for the imbalance between attack and defense.  Due to the
mechanics of force concentration in Traveller, unless you posit _very_
effective ground batteries (which one might; buried meson sites can be pretty
tough) the fact that in Traveller it's very hard to intercept an enemy fleet
means that the balance tends to favor the offense.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 15:45:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dave W.)
Date: Thu Aug 15 14:45:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Sunburst
Message-ID: <000c01c244a5$06161bc0$6401a8c0@ntelos.com>

Hi everyone!

My 1st post!=20

Does anyone know of where I could get a graphic of the Imperial Sunburst =
and the various Scout branch insignia in Illustrator format? I want to =
make some of the forms in my campaign more "official" looking. :-)

Regards and Thanks!

-Uncle Buster


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 16:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 15:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Anti-MIME test, ignore
Message-ID: <13.100580e9.2a8d7f55@cs.com>

test


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 16:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Aug 15 15:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Vilani Chess
In-Reply-To: <E17fMna-000DYG-0X@anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net>
References: <20020815131503.28324.59281.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <E17fMna-000DYG-0X@anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net>
Message-ID: <20020816081405.B26933@freeman.little-possums.net>

rob@glisten.demon.co.uk wrote:
> That's why extra pieces are brought into play every now and
> again. Having said that, I just skimmed the rules when I read them
> today (rather than reading them properly) so there is a fair chance
> I missed something when I originally wrote them....

Probably; you made it optional to bring in extra pieces, rather than
mandatory.  The game would never end in stalemate if you had to bring
in an extra piece every 50 turns whether you liked it or not.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 16:25:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Thu Aug 15 15:25:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockheads Unite!
In-Reply-To: <12e.15b8a75b.2a881d23@aol.com>
References: <12e.15b8a75b.2a881d23@aol.com>
Message-ID: <02081518285500.00972@linux>

> Depends on what you mean by "a lot".  Consider trade amounting to 0.4% (a
> number cited earlier) of a 10 billion population world's productivity. 
> Seen from the perspective of an individual trader with a 400 ton merchant
> ship then that's an awful lot of goods being flown around, but as a
> percentage of that world's economy it's not world-breaking.

	I still don't understand where the value of .4% is coming from. The only 
ruleset that I know that specifically covers interstellar trade, and not just 
generating cargoes for pc's ,  is clear in its calculations that a class A 
starport will generate offworld trade anywhere from 0 to 50 % increase in a 
world's economy depending on the number of trade partners it has. Lower rated 
starports generate less, but still significant amounts for ports over 'd' .


> The planet generation system is simply random.  It generates arbitrary
> the way they did.  This may lead to interesting game plots, but it cannot
> bear the level of scrutiny and examination that is being given it.

	I believe that the physical portion is ok, although I would use atmosphere 
as the dm for hydro% and not size. Low pressure allows fluids to boil off. 
The population and tech ( which also includes starport type ) is where the 
greatest problems lie. I have an idea on how to fix it. As soon as I type up 
a paper, I will post it here for reveiw.

( Actually, I tend to use starform or accrete for physic aspects of a system.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 16:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug 15 15:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <20020815222919.404.qmail@web20415.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Shawn R Sears" <ShawnSears@telocity.com>
>>>In real life, the Army saw fit to conduct a psychological 
>>>evaluation, and on the commander's recommendation, I was sent 
>>>to sniper school.  Later, when I became a software 
>>>consultant...
>_______________________________________________
>Please tell us where you live, so we can all make sure that you are 
>not our neighbor.

>Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 17:27:02 -0400
>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...

>Shawn R Sears says
>>Please tell us where you live, so we can all make sure that 
>>you are not our neighbor.
>
>Actually, if you've been to either the Army or Marine Sniper 
>training, I would regard you as less likely to do something 
>stupid with a rifle than almost anyone else.  I don't believe 
>the selection process (or the dedication necessary to 
>graduate) is favorable to either the "really stupid" or 
>the "really crazy".

No one's worried about what you'll do with a gun, John.  Shawn just
doesn't want any software consultants around, and sometimes I can't
blame him.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 16:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Thu Aug 15 15:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style
In-Reply-To: <20020815192125.54120.qmail@web11803.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <002501c2454a$61127050$1001a8c0@sauron>

Daniel Tackett wrote :
> >
> >    Why yes, Frankie, I would *certainly* appreciate
> > a copy of the issue 108
> I would also like a copy,
> thanks.
> Dan

I have sent the text of the article to Dan, but I don't seem to have
seen the post to which Dan was replying.

If it was you, let me know so I can send the article.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 16:31:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Aug 15 15:31:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
References: <ML-2.3.1029447384.1653.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3D5C2B6E.2060603@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> John T. Kwon writes:
> 
> 
>>Actually, if you've been to either the Army or Marine Sniper 
>>training, I would regard you as less likely to do something 
>>stupid with a rifle than almost anyone else.
> 
> 
> Well, being selected for sniper training does generally imply that the people
> doing the selection think you have the mentality to be able to look closely at
> people and then shoot them, which is one of those mental traits that make other
> people nervous.

Key difference: "look closely at people and shoot them, ONLY WHEN 
ORDERED to do so..."

I'd MUCH rather live next to a trained sniper than some untrained yahoo 
with a 30-06. Very much, having *lived* next to such yahoos.

"Happy <hic> New Year!! <BOOM> <hic>"

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 16:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Thu Aug 15 15:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Motown Keyboard Kill
In-Reply-To: <001901c24487$2cd05640$e4c187d9@fg>
Message-ID: <002601c2454a$f25d4350$1001a8c0@sauron>

Nick Wright wrote :
> Frankie (Munden) wrote:
> 
> "I know Loren, Martin and John,    ...."
> 
> Keyboard Kill, Sir.

I have to admit that this kill was completely unintended. 
So unintended, in fact, that I still don't get it. 
Can you let me in on the joke, please?

Frankie


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 16:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Aug 15 15:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E0D@USCHM203>

>Well, being selected for sniper training does generally imply that the
>people
>doing the selection think you have the mentality to be able to look
>>>closely at
>people and then shoot them, which is one of those mental traits that >>make
other
>people nervous.

Why is that different from any serviceman? Every Marine, from cook to
commandant, is expected to use his weapon to kill individual enemies if
neccessary. Same goes for Army infantry.
The biggest asset for a sniper is not cold-bloodedness or the will to kill,
but an unnatural amount of patience, the ability to refrain from moving so
much as an eyebrow for umpteen hours, and of course a steady aim.
I sure as hell couldn't do it. Just give me my Dragon and show me where the
tanks are.
In my experience snipers are very calm, easygoing, and fairly mellow. Not
wild-eyed Whitmans and Oswalds.
And as long as we're dispelling stereotypes, here's a profile of the average
Marine infantryman:

5'6" to 5'9". Very few hulking giants, even in Recon. 160 lbs is about
average, though my squad had a range from 102(not kidding, my bunkmate,
little guy from Paterson, NJ) to 180. 180 lbs is prety big when there's not
an ounce of fat.
The biggest guys tend to be put in mortar platoons, and are generally not
suited to be riflemen...they make bigger targets, and often are simply not
as agile or fast as smaller guys.
Very few musclebound types. Average build is stocky or wiry, though from
sheer intensive training will be stronger than a similarly built civilian.
As far as personalities and other intangibles, just about all had a very
healthy, if often frat-boyish, sense of humor. Practical jokes were rampant.
Friendships were about as strong as I've ever seen beyond childhood friends.
Education-wise, at least half of the enlisted men I knew had some college.
Most NCOs at Staff Sgt and above had college degrees.
As far as attitudes on combat, only a handful of idiots talked about it as
if it was something to look forward too. The majority had a serious
business-like attitude, privately questioned their ability to kill another
human, and generally hoped they wouldn't panic or "let down the side" if the
balloon went up.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 16:38:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (markc@peak.org)
Date: Thu Aug 15 15:38:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Sunburst
Message-ID: <39020-220028415223730456@M2W098.mail2web.com>

Dave W=2E <fallout@ntelos=2Enet> writes:

> Does anyone know of where I could get a graphic of the Imperial
> Sunburst and the various Scout branch insignia in Illustrator
> format? I want to make some of the forms in my campaign more
> "official" looking=2E :-)

The good news is that I have all those items=2E

The bad news is that I designed them under contract to SJ Games
and, technically, all the artwork belongs to Steve Jackson & Co=2E

If you can talk Loren, et=2Eal=2E into granting permission, I'll be
glad to make the files available=2E

    - Mark C=2E
      Shoestring Graphics & Printing




--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 16:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Aug 15 15:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <20020815163640.3552.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020815163640.3552.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020816084602.C26933@freeman.little-possums.net>

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>  You might also try some sports that require quick decision-making
> and team play, like basketball or paintball.

I'm not too bad at netball and volleyball.  However, in such games I
am constantly aware of where everyone else is, and know a lot more
about my own abilites relative to the other participants, and
well-practiced in the reflexes and tactics necessary.

In a roleplaying game, I only know what the GM tells me; I am starved
of information that my character would have, some of it at an
instinctive level.  Most that would be immediately obvious to anyone
actually present in the situation.

e.g, a dialogue very close to an event in one play session:

GM: "Quick: who are you firing at?  You've only got about a second"
Me: "I don't know -- what can I see?"
GM: "Too late; you feel a hammer-blow in your shoulder almost
immediately followed by what feels like a giant's fist in your chest."

I used to make what I thought were reasonable assumptions about what
my character knows about the situation.  Almost always, those
assumptions turned out to be disastrously false.  Maybe I am very poor
at coming up with "reasonable" assumptions, or maybe I've had
shockingly bad GMs.  Either way, using time pressure to remove what
little opportunity there was to get even an approximate feel for the
situation from my character's point of view is going to make things a
*lot* worse.

Roleplaying is not just acting.  There are far more opportunities for
world-view mismatches between the participants, and such mismatches
are greatly more damaging.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 16:51:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug 15 15:51:42 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <200208152250.MVX01806@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Glenn M. Goffin says
>No one's worried about what you'll do with a gun, John.  
>Shawn just doesn't want any software consultants around, and 
>sometimes I can't blame him.

Well, there's a reason I call my representative from the 
consulting company "my pimp".  He even wears those pointy 
Italian dress shoes and a really nice suit.

Which makes the typical software consultant a ....

I often find myself doing it "the client's way" rather than 
mine, and faking that I'm really enjoying it.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 16:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 15:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] EABA & Traveller
Message-ID: <20020815.185102.-170149.0.Knightsky@juno.com>


On Thu, 15 Aug 2002 10:49:16 -0500 Greg Porter <btrc@BTRC.NET> writes:
> Stephen,
> Catching your TML thread 15 months after the fact, I can proudly 
> announce
> that EABA is now available. More than that, I talked with Marc 
> Miller at
> GenCon, and he is not averse to an EABA Traveller. 

Woo hoo!


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"




________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 17:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Aug 15 16:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockheads Unite!
In-Reply-To: <02081518285500.00972@linux>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029453016.7096.ajackson@ping>

richard honeycutt writes:

>      I still don't understand where the value of .4% is coming from.

Far Trader, mostly.  Which should probably have had some formulae altered to
produce slightly different trade patterns, but oh well.

Bear in mind, a base pop-A (10 billion) TL-F world has a GWP on the order of
100 trillion credits; if one assumes a typical cargo value of Cr 10,000 per
dton, trade at 10% of GWP per annum is about a billion tons per year, or a bit
over 100,000 dtons per hour.  If we assume that the average bulk trader is a
2,000 dton ship with a bit over 1,000 dtons of cargo capacity, that's one bulk
trader leaving every 40 seconds or so; with an average time in port of 3-4
days, there would be on the order of 10,000 such bulk traders in orbit at any
given time.  Is that how active you really imagine a high-pop starport to be?

>      I believe that the physical portion is ok, although I would use
> atmosphere  as the dm for hydro% and not size.

Basically, the physical portion might be OK if you limited size 4 worlds to
thin atmospheres and didn't allow size 2-3 worlds more than trace atmospheres.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 17:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Thu Aug 15 16:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] muter mutter mutter
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHKEDHINAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Well, I got all the courses I wanted ... none of the
classes though.

jml
proud owner of the classes ... and final ...
schedule from hell

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 17:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 16:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
Message-ID: <a6.2abe80d9.2a8d99cb@aol.com>

 >     Who won and who lost?  Couldn't both sides "win" a war, that is 
 >generally meet their war aims?

Well, defined that way, sure -- if you don't care what the aims are.  Let's 
see, I'm reading from Supplement 11 .... In the first war, the Zhodani 
"expelled Imperial settlements from Zhodani territories beyond the Spinward 
Marches Sector boundaries", and "Ultimately, armistice lines were drawn, 
ceding portions of the Cronor subsector to the Zhodani."  In the second war, 
"Alkhalikoi accepted the dangerous responsibility of ceding more territory to 
the Zhodani AND [emphasis added] of releasing perhaps (sic) a dozen systems 
previously incorporated into the Imperium, rendering them independent."  In 
the third war, "ultimately, an armistice was reached which ceded systems to 
the Zhodani in the Jewell subsector and allowed Zhodani occupation of several 
in the Querion subsector.  Moreover, the the Imperium withdrew several 
parsecs from their previous positions ... With the Zhodani on their doorstep, 
Retinae applied for, and was granted, disunion from the Imperium."  In the 
fourth war, " ... the Imperium lost another world, and was forced to accept 
joint tenancy of Esalin ... but it regained two worlds lost to the Sword 
Worlds [The Sword Worlds!]".  Now, you can say that the Imperium met its war 
aims in all these retreats and withdrawals and cedings, and thus say they won 
-- but I think that's stretching the meaning of the word "win" too far.  To 
me it sounds like a losing streak.  Personally, if I were in charge, and I 
were to look at this 500 year history of retreat in the face of a 
technologically inferior opponent, I'd have to ask "What are we doing wrong 
here?" and then fix it.

 >War is politics by other means, that's 
 >why generals and admirals usually don't decide grand strategy.  They can't 
 >be trusted with it.

In a situation where communication with the capital takes 12 months, they 
have to be.  They _are_ entrusted with grand strategy, by default.

 >    What has the Imperial grand strategy been during this period?  I think 
 >we can all agree that the strategy has changed over the centuries, but I 
 >also think we can agree that part of that strategy has been to maintain an 
 >Imperial presence in the Marches.  Keeping that goal in mind, the Imperium 
 >has "won" every Frontier War.

Well, then, all I can say is how could they lose?  Even if the Imperium were 
forced all the way back to Mora and Trin, they would still meet this "goal".  
But I would have to say that such a goal originates in Zhodane, not the 
Imperium.

 >     In one of your earlier posts you mentioned something along the lines 
of 
 >"Cronor used to be Imperial, I want it back."  When do you want it back?  
In 
 >700?  900?  1105?  The Imperium lost that world during the first two 
 >frontier wars, the next chance to "liberate" it would be 350 years later.  
 >That's over TEN human generations.  Do you really think there is huge 
 >segment of the population on Cronor pining for the long ago days of 
Imperial 
 >rule?  Three centuries time during which the Thought Police have worked?

Well now you're talking about something besides military action.  The quick 
answer is "Did the Zhodani ask them if they wanted to be Zhodani?", and if 
not, then why should the Imperium?  But that's a different topic.

 >    You've boasted about how your Spinward Marches fleet can win the war 
 >against their Consulate opponents.

I don't know about "boasting", but yes, given the conditions I thought were 
in effect.  And I still think so, adamantly.  But I would like to remind you 
that (as far as I can remember) I've always added, "And I'd love to find 
out.", me being a virgin and you being professionals and all.  One person 
wrote in to propose just such a game, and I said yes, but no-one else did.

 >Care to explain how you'll then win the 
 >peace?  How are you going to control the "lost" Imperial colony of Cronor 
 >after three centuries of "Zhodani-fication"?

Isn't there such a thing as "three centuries of Imperial-ification"?  You 
say, I say.

 >    So, after the first two Frontier Wars, do you seriously believe the 
 >Imperium wanted all those lost colonies back?

"The Imperium" is a fictional fantasy entity.  It wants what we, the players 
(or maybe Mark Miller), make it want.

 >    "So ... how are victories obtained?"
 >
 >    Victory in battle or victory in war?  If you're asking about victory in 
 >war, it's obtained by meeting your strategic war aims.  Don't forget, 
 >winning every battle isn't the way that particular job gets done.  Ever 
hear 
 >of Vietnam?

Yep, sure did.  The United States government refused to take on North Vietnam 
in its own territory and other territories were it was operating, and then 
when the chips were down totally abandoned the government of South Vietnam 
and left it to be overrun.  North Vietnam didn't win -- the United States 
walked away.  Seems to me that many are pressing the Imperium to follow the 
same pattern.  They don't have to.

When I was in the Navy I spoke at length to one of the pilots who had served 
in Vietnam.  He said that before they could perform a bombing run that they 
would have to submit their flightplan to NATO for review by several member 
nations, and that if they flew this flight plan they invariably found that 
the NVA had aligned their air defenses to exactly anticipate the planned run. 
 He said that they learned to file flight plans and then fly their missions 
differently, because then the air defense wasn't lined up to meet them.  He 
stated that it was his opinion that the French were passing along these 
flight plans to the NVA.

I think the Imperium, as represented here, has a similar problem.

By the way, I appreciate your civility.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 18:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug 15 17:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E0D@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <B9818EF1.69DAB%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/15/02 3:36 PM, Hurrel, Brian at brian.hurrel@eds.com wrote:

> And as long as we're dispelling stereotypes, here's a profile of the aver=
age
> Marine infantryman:
>=20
> 5'6" to 5'9". Very few hulking giants, even in Recon. 160 lbs is about
> average, though my squad had a range from 102(not kidding, my bunkmate,
> little guy from Paterson, NJ) to 180. 180 lbs is prety big when there's n=
ot
> an ounce of fat.

Curious.  I am 5'10" and was about average for an infantryman when I was in
(1980s).  We have a few short fellows, a few big ones. A 5'6" male is
usually short enough these days to attract comment, assuming he is less tha=
n
about 40 years of age.

According to the department of Health and Human Services, the Average
American male is 5' 9.1" tall (The average female is 5' 3.7").  Doing some
research, I find that the average US soldier was 5'7" --In the Spanish
American war.  I suspect that the average soldier today is slightly above
the national average.  About 5'10 for males.  I don't remember Marines bein=
g
that much smaller than us Army pukes.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 18:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Aug 15 17:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockheads Unite!
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1029453016.7096.ajackson@ping>
References: <02081518285500.00972@linux> <ML-2.3.1029453016.7096.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020816100225.A27248@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> with an average time in port of 3-4 days, there would be on the
> order of 10,000 such bulk traders in orbit at any given time.  Is
> that how active you really imagine a high-pop starport to be?

I expect quite a few more 10k-100k bulk freighters, and only a few
thousand ships in orbit at any given time.  But yes, that's about how
busy I expect it to be, actually a bit more.

I actually expect there to be many starports though.  Just as any
large and rich nation has dozens of ports and airports of various
sizesand purposes, I expect a rich and populous system to have dozens
of spaceports and downports.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 18:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug 15 17:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
In-Reply-To: <200208152250.MVX01806@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B9818F55.69DAC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/15/02 3:50 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> Well, there's a reason I call my representative from the
> consulting company "my pimp".  He even wears those pointy
> Italian dress shoes and a really nice suit.
>=20
> Which makes the typical software consultant a ....
>=20
> I often find myself doing it "the client's way" rather than
> mine, and faking that I'm really enjoying it.
> ________________

You'll appreciate one of my favorite demotivators.  See:
http://us.st5.yimg.com/store4.yimg.com/I/demotivators_1697_482501

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 18:04:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 17:04:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
Message-ID: <15a.1284a6d1.2a8d9b5f@aol.com>

 >Does a downport
 >serve as a hub? If so, why? If I am a factory owner and I need parts
 >regularly shipped to me from Regina, why would I want to travel halfway
 >around the world to pick up goods at the downport that could have been
 >picked up in orbit?

Taxes, immigration / emmigration control, customs, safety inspections, law 
enforcement.  Also, while it may be advantageous to drop stuff from orbit, it 
may be more advantageous for ships that are picking up stuff to know where to 
go to start looking.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 18:09:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Aug 15 17:09:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
In-Reply-To: <a6.2abe80d9.2a8d99cb@aol.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029456528.3628.ajackson@ping>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:

> losing streak.  Personally, if I were in charge, and I  were to look at this
> 500 year history of retreat in the face of a  technologically inferior
> opponent, I'd have to ask "What are we doing wrong  here?" and then fix it.

Well, the Zhodani may not have been technologically inferior for all that long.
They were less affected by the long night, and might have actually been on
average higher-tech in the early wars.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 18:11:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 17:11:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day
Message-ID: <193.b911f76.2a8d9ca1@aol.com>

 >Hasn't Gvegh been described as sounding like an "asthmatic dog 
 >coughing"?  That might work since the description implies a lot of 
 >wierd sounds that can carry info.  (though, remember, since Vargr can 
 >speak human languages, and vice versa, it should be, at least mostly, 
 >sounds a human can make)

Dogs can hear sounds a human can't.  Can they make such sounds?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 18:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Thu Aug 15 17:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
In-Reply-To: <20020815214506.9307.24549.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentra
 l.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020815170946.00b87008@mailhost.efn.org>

On Thu, 15 Aug 2002 17:27:02 -0400, "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:

>It runs contrary to what I often see in roleplaying - the
>person with the high gun skill is often the first to use it -
>and get in a lot of trouble.  Go figure.

That's because the _player_ of the character with the high gun skill didn't 
have to work for it, and in the process learn all the other important stuff 
that goes with the ability - including when NOT to use it.

It's kind of like "script kiddiez" who download pre-packaged virus kits, 
tweak a few fields and then set them loose Because They Can.  Most haven't 
a clue as to the mindset of an experienced programmer.  (The sad thing is, 
a lot of them seem to think they do.)



--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 18:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 17:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <2d.21aebda9.2a8da04e@aol.com>

 >>  >> That's no reason to surrender the instant Jewell is lost.
 >>  >>
 >>  >> And there you go again, thinking strictly in terms of Zhodane on 
 >> offense,
 >>  >> Imperium always and forever on passive defense.
 >>  >
 >>  >Well, it's apparently been true historically, for whatever reason.
 >>
 >>Hm.  Sounds like an opportunity for a player character admiral to turn 
things
 >>around.
 >
 >Remember MacArthur!

Indeed, that is exactly who I was thinking of.  And if North Korea ever uses 
a nuclear weapon anywhere on us or South Korea there will be a lot of 
recrimination regarding his dismissal for insubordination.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 18:33:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Aug 15 17:33:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020815170946.00b87008@mailhost.efn.org>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029457917.2085.ajackson@ping>

Kelly St.Clair writes:
> 
> >It runs contrary to what I often see in roleplaying - the
> >person with the high gun skill is often the first to use it -
> >and get in a lot of trouble.  Go figure.
> 
> That's because the _player_ of the character with the high gun skill didn't
>  have to work for it, and in the process learn all the other important
> stuff  that goes with the ability - including when NOT to use it.

Actually, no, it isn't.  It has more to do with the fact that characters are
effectively 'tools' in many games, and if all you've got is a hammer, most
problems look like nails.

Truth is, the concept of someone being skilled with weapons and _not_ being
more likely to use the weapons is probably more of an aberration from a
historical standpoint than the typical gamer attitude. Historically (and, for
that matter, in the modern world outside of the first world), people with
weapons and the training to use them tend to use those weapons.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 18:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 17:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <83.1f352cbb.2a8da303@aol.com>

>> TC needs to work on character names. Would you believe there's a Colonel
>> Strokov?
>> 
>> 
>> Les
>> 
>
>Just so long as there's no Colonel Lingus.

Or A seaman named Stanes . . . 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 18:37:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Thu Aug 15 17:37:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day
In-Reply-To: <193.b911f76.2a8d9ca1@aol.com>
References: <193.b911f76.2a8d9ca1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <p04330107b981f94cd420@[143.232.119.186]>

At 8:09 PM -0400 8/15/02, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
>  >Hasn't Gvegh been described as sounding like an "asthmatic dog
>  >coughing"?  That might work since the description implies a lot of
>  >wierd sounds that can carry info.  (though, remember, since Vargr can
>  >speak human languages, and vice versa, it should be, at least mostly,
>  >sounds a human can make)
>
>Dogs can hear sounds a human can't.  Can they make such sounds?

Maybe.  Though they presumably don't make so many that a human has 
too much difficulty following Vargr languages.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 18:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Thu Aug 15 17:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
In-Reply-To: <83.1f352cbb.2a8da303@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208151738030.25453-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

> >> TC needs to work on character names. Would you believe there's a Colonel
> >> Strokov?
> >
> >Just so long as there's no Colonel Lingus.

Equal time is important!
**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 18:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Thu Aug 15 17:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] World Queries
References: <20020815170345.86776.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3D5C4903.4030504@yarranet.net.au>

Paul Walker wrote:

>>I have several worlds that I was wondering if there
>>are landgrabs for.  Also, if anyone knows of any
>>official information for any of these worlds, I
>>would appreciate that also.


Try
http://www.seemann.ms/worlds.htm
for official information.

Phill
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/traveller/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 18:41:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug 15 17:41:47 2002
Subject: [TML] The Limits of Imperial Intervention
Message-ID: <200208160038.MWB00587@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Was just reading about the applicability of a 1.3 micron DF 
overtone laser with a 5 meter mirror and 14 MW power input 
for ground attack.  Apparently, it would excel at attacking 
anything down to ground level not concealed by clouds.  The 
Earth's atmosphere is apparently no hindrance to a laser 
operating at that wavelength (unlike the typical DF laser, 
which has a very short range in atmosphere).

Apparently the laser's optics also excel at final target 
aiming and identification for ground attack.

Mental picture of Saddam Hussein going outside on a balcony 
for a celebration.  Suddenly disappearing in a boom and 
flash.  Minimal civilian casualties, and an interesting 
message to any successors.  No real evidence, either (no 
captured assassins, no spent shell casings).

When the Tigress shows up, and the Imperium is wroth with a 
particular personage, would it be suicide to step into plain 
view?  Rather than use all of her mighty weaponry, and 
wreaking massive damage on a city (or even the whole planet), 
would it be possible for the Tigress to have a specialized 
assassination laser?  
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 18:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Thu Aug 15 17:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1029456528.3628.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1029456528.3628.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <p04330108b981fb0a3d06@[143.232.119.186]>

In looking at Zho motivation in the frontier wars, one thing has 
struck me is that everyone seems to be looking for the _one_ 
motivation that is ascribed as lasting unchanged for centuries.  It 
is quite possible that the motivation has drifter or changed over 
time (or is about to change).  It is also likely that, within the 
consulate, there are different factions with different views.....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 18:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug 15 17:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020815170946.00b87008@mailhost.efn.org>
References: <5.1.1.6.0.20020815170946.00b87008@mailhost.efn.org>
Message-ID: <m3bs83hbql.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org> writes:
> 
> That's because the _player_ of the character with the high gun skill
> didn't have to work for it, and in the process learn all the other
> important stuff that goes with the ability--including when NOT to
> use it.

Well, and the fact that the _player_ doesn't face real repercussions
when his _character_ is shot at.  Much as in a FPS players charge into
gunfire, knowing that they probably won't die, so too do players in
RPGs act much more brashly than they would in real life.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The fact that we have bodies is the oldest joke there is.  --C.S. Lewis

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 18:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Aug 15 17:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The Limits of Imperial Intervention
In-Reply-To: <200208160038.MWB00587@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029458899.4143.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> Was just reading about the applicability of a 1.3 micron DF 
> overtone laser with a 5 meter mirror and 14 MW power input 
> for ground attack.

Heh.  Pretty large device, that; beam diffraction would be about 1/4 million or
about 3" from a 200 mile orbit, which would limit its applicability against
hardened targets of any type, but 14 MW is certainly overkill on personell.

> Mental picture of Saddam Hussein going outside on a balcony 
> for a celebration.  Suddenly disappearing in a boom and 
> flash.  Minimal civilian casualties, and an interesting 
> message to any successors.  No real evidence, either (no 
> captured assassins, no spent shell casings).

Well, there's this big laser up in orbit someone's been firing, which would not
exactly be a challenge for anyone monitoring such things to notice.
> 
> When the Tigress shows up, and the Imperium is wroth with a 
> particular personage, would it be suicide to step into plain 
> view?  Rather than use all of her mighty weaponry, and 
> wreaking massive damage on a city (or even the whole planet), 
> would it be possible for the Tigress to have a specialized 
> assassination laser?  

Not sure how specialized it needs to be.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 18:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 17:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Sunburst
Message-ID: <98.2a825350.2a8da65e@aol.com>

>> Does anyone know of where I could get a graphic of the Imperial
>> Sunburst and the various Scout branch insignia in Illustrator
>> format? I want to make some of the forms in my campaign more
.> "official" looking=2E :-)
>
>The good news is that I have all those items=2E
>
>The bad news is that I designed them under contract to SJ Games
>and, technically, all the artwork belongs to Steve Jackson & Co=2E
>
>If you can talk Loren, et=2Eal=2E into granting permission, I'll be
>glad to make the files available=2E


Send a request to lkw@io.com, and I'll forward it to the proper authorities. 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 18:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug 15 17:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The Limits of Imperial Intervention
Message-ID: <200208160058.MWB01944@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony Jackson says
>John T. Kwon writes:
>> Was just reading about the applicability of a 1.3 micron 
>>DF overtone laser with a 5 meter mirror and 14 MW power 
>>input for ground attack.
>
>Heh.  Pretty large device, that; beam diffraction would be 
>about 1/4 million or about 3" from a 200 mile orbit, which 
>would limit its applicability against hardened targets of 
>any type, but 14 MW is certainly overkill on personell.
>
Apparently one of two proposed configurations for the Space 
Based Laser, and capable of destroying any current model of 
missile booster during boost phase in a few seconds of 
firing.  Missile skins are apparently quite thin, and making 
them thicker really degrades their performance, especially 
range.

>Well, there's this big laser up in orbit someone's been 
>firing, which would not exactly be a challenge for anyone 
>monitoring such things to notice.

Maybe it would be a powerful psychological weapon if it was 
well-known.  One of the proposals is a 24-satellite SBL 
setup.  Near 100% coverage of the whole world at any time.  
Such a weapon could also deny launch capability for 
commercial purposes.

>Not sure how specialized it needs to be.

Just small enough to do the job.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 19:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 18:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <c5.276f2f24.2a8da970@aol.com>

 >>You are forgiven (as if you need to ask me).  But I would never continue 
with
 >>a strategy, published or not, that has produced nothing but bare draws and
 >>significant losses in five wars.  I certainly wouldn't stand around 
passively
 >>waiting for the next attack -- that guarantees a loss.
 >
 >Remember:  The military is under the control of the civilian power 
 >structure.

In the Imperium?  With a rule of men, not laws?

 >What is to be gained by attacking the Consulate?  Nothing that 
 >I can see.  What would the war goals be?

Disruption of _their_ supply lines, disruption of _their_ economic ability to 
wage war, destruction of _their_ repair facilities, frightening of _their_ 
leaders and population, sitting on _their_ lines of retreat.  They attack, I 
attack.  They violate borders, I ignore theirs.

 >>  >That, and using my lessons from over twenty years of serious research
 >>  >into military history.
 >>
 >>So ... how are victories obtained?
 >
 >In the Marches?  For the Zhodani, keeping the Imperium off balance and 
 >afraid of the Zhodani.  The Imperium wants to maintain the status 
 >quo.  Both sides appear to be happy with the current balance of power.

The Imperium is happy with being off-balance and afraid of the Zhodani?  I 
wouldn't be.  And I don't think the Zhodani are either.  They've been 
launching wars of aggression and capturing territory for 500 years -- why 
would they stop?

 >The Fifth Frontier War was a clear victory for the Imperium without taking 
 >any more real estate than Esalin.  Why?  It shattered the Sword Worlds, and 
 >broke several Zhodani fleets.  The message was clear:  Attack at your own 
 >risk.  I think that we will now see a century of peace between the 
 >Consulate and the Imperium.

(looking back ... hm)  I'm unfamiliar with the Fifth -- all I have is the 
original books.  But frankly, I don't see why it wasn't that way in the first 
place, unless the Imperium has only recently obtained technical superiority 
over the Zhodani.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 19:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug 15 18:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Too much time on our hands
Message-ID: <20020816012403.39344.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>

>e.g, a dialogue very close to an event in one play session:
>
>GM: "Quick: who are you firing at?  You've only got about a second"
>Me: "I don't know -- what can I see?"
>GM: "Too late; you feel a hammer-blow in your shoulder almost
>immediately followed by what feels like a giant's fist in your 
>chest."

This appears to be very bad GMing.  Before the referee can put time
pressure on the players, he or she has to set up the context enough
for them to act.  "Enough" is actually quite a lot of information. 
Miniatures or even counters really help.

>Maybe I am very poor at coming up with "reasonable" assumptions, or
>maybe I've had shockingly bad GMs.  

Well it could be either or a little of both.  How does your play
compare with other players in the same situation in the same game?

>Roleplaying is not just acting.  There are far more opportunities
for
>world-view mismatches between the participants, and such mismatches
>are greatly more damaging.

Your point is well taken, but it sounds like you've backed off of
your position that you don't make decisions quickly. If you play
volleyball well, as you indicated, you make decisions very quickly.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 19:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 18:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Vilani Chess
Message-ID: <98.2a82c54f.2a8daeca@aol.com>

 >One advantage of chess is that it produces involved strategies w/out 
 >complex movement rules (thorugh the interaction of the pieces). 
 >Giving a piece a conditional movement rule is contrary to the feel of 
 >chess.  If you want a starship feel.  Maybe the piece can move 2 
 >hexes in any direction, skipping intermediate hexes.  (like a 
 >starship jump).

As a kid in my chess club sometimes we would play something called Ultima.  
Here are the rules, if anyone cares.

Use a regular chess board, set up normally.  Swap the black king and queen.  
Turn over the king-side rooks.  The board is now set up for Ultima.

The pawns are now called Surrounders.  They move like rooks.  All other 
pieces move like queens -- except the King, which still moves one square at a 
time.  The Queen is called a Withdrawer.  The bishops are called Imitators.  
The knights are called Leapers.  The remaining rook is called an Angler.  The 
upside-down rook is called the Immobilizer.  Each side gets one move at a 
time, White starting.  No piece may leap over a friendly piece.

The King captures pieces the same way as a chess King.

The Surrounders capture pieces by surrounding them on two opposite sides 
horizontally or vertically (not diagonally).

The Leapers capture enemy pieces by leaping over them, from any distance to 
any distance.  They may leap any number of enemy pieces, provided there is at 
least one space between those enemy pieces.  They may not leap over their own 
pieces.

The Withdrawer captures pieces by moving adjacent to them in one turn, and 
then moving directly away from them (to any distance) in any subsequent turn.

The Angler captures pieces by working in conjunction with its King.  When the 
Angler or King move, whereever they are, the King and the Angler form the 
acute angles of a right triangle -- at the row and file where the sides of 
that triangle meet to form the right angle, any enemy piece there is 
captured, regardless of any intervening pieces.

The Immobilizer does not capture pieces.  Rather it renders immobile any 
enemy piece within one square of it.  Two Immobilizers within one square of 
each other will be permanently stuck until one of them is captured.  
Immobilized Surrounders may still participate in captures.  A Leaper may leap 
from a distance and capture an Immobilizer.

An Imitator captures pieces by imitating their capturing move -- it leaps 
Leapers, immobilizes Immobilizers, etc.  In so doing it must move as the 
captured piece moves, i.e. only one square to capture a King, move as a rook 
to capture a Surrounder.

And that's it.  The game is very open, and gets messy fast.  I always thought 
it was fun.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 19:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Aug 15 18:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
In-Reply-To: <19d.6fbf772.2a8c6b7e@cs.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815214543.028df008@192.168.0.1>


Vdub


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
I'm what love is all about. I've got American Teeth
and a Spanish Mouth -- Fernando (Billy Crystal)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 19:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Aug 15 18:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value
 targets)
In-Reply-To: <1029383822.3d5b268eca2b7@www.paradise.net.nz>
References: <F6JYsIthCLwkcMtwGtY00007125@hotmail.com>
 <F6JYsIthCLwkcMtwGtY00007125@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815215034.029fd008@192.168.0.1>

At 03:57 PM 8/15/2002 +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>Quoting "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>:
> > (1) - Take a look at the War of 1812 for a war in which both sides
> > "won".
>Funny, I use the War of 1812 as an example of a war in which almost everyone
>lost. In the long run the British failed to control American expansionism 
>(one
>of their goals), the would-be land-grabbers failed to get any new lands, and
>the US states lost power.
>The only winner I see was the US Federal government, which gained all 
>sorts of
>cool powers, like being able to directly raise an army suitable for foreign
>adventures (rather than have to rely on the states lending their milita - 
>fine
>for defence, lousy for land-grabs), and being able to raise taxes to pay for
>this army (and other stuff, of course).

At the museum of American Warfare at West Point, the section on the war of 
1812 starts off,
"At best, this war can be called a draw."



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
And, isn't sanity really just a one trick pony anyway? I mean, all you get
is one trick: rational thinking. But when you're good and crazy, ooo hoo
hoo, the sky's the limit! - The Tick  http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 19:53:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 18:53:45 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <a7.251d2f62.2a8db4d6@aol.com>

 >>  >> You are forgiven (as if you need to ask me).  But I would never
 >>  >> continue with a strategy, published or not, that has produced
 >>  >> nothing but bare draws and significant losses in five wars.  I
 >>  >> certainly wouldn't stand around passively waiting for the next
 >>  >> attack -- that guarantees a loss. 
 >>  >
 >>  >How odd. The western allies were the attacked in WWI and they won.
 >> 
 >> Not the French.  They took same the view you do.  The allies won because 
the 
 >> United States and Soviet Union were unreachable (in different ways), and 
 >> therefore unbeatable once they ramped up production.  But even with this 
the 
 >> allies and the United States almost lost anyway, and were losing until 
they 
 >> took the offensive and forced Germany and Japan into defensive roles from 
 >> which they were unable to escape.
 >
 >World War One, not World War Two. And on tactical - strategic level 
 >Germany nearly won WWI by adopting a fairly defensive posture and 
 >encouraging the western allies to attack.

I'm not sure I follow you here.  WW1 is a special case -- everything bogged 
down and no-one had any mobility.  This simply wouldn't happen in any 
Traveller war.  I was thinking of WW2.  To the extent that it works at all, I 
think WW1 makes _my_ case.  The whole point of the maneuver they attempted 
was to lure the enemy in by a feigned retreat and then outflank them with a 
heavily-overweighted _offensive_ end-run around the lines.  But in the end 
they put too many men in the retreating wing and didn't retreat fast enough, 
and put too few men in the offensive arm, and so were unable to press their 
attack through the thin defense fast enough to capture their goal of Paris 
before the French recovered.  Then everything locked up.  Here the defensive 
retreat was a ruse -- the offensive move was meant to win.

 >In WWII the Soviet Union wore 
 >the Germans out by retreating (generally considered a defensive move) 
 >until they were worn out (and the Soviets had run out of room). Same in 
 >the Napoleonic Wars.

They retreated because they were losing (and badly -- Stalin had shot much of 
his officer corps a few years before).  If the German command had planned 
better, they _would_ have lost in spite of any amount of retreating.  And 
there is no Russian Winter in space.

 >> I'm sure that after 20 years you can be a little more explicative.
 >
 >My mil-history studies are only about 15 years old - Doug's got a bit 
 >of a head start on me.

Oh, sorry.  I never keep track of who I'm responding to, I just read and 
write.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 19:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Thu Aug 15 18:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
Message-ID: <20020816015510.70213.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
In a situation where communication with the capital
takes 12 months, they have to be.  They _are_
entrusted with grand strategy, by default.
END QUOTE

No they formulate grand strategy in accordance with
orders from there superiors. If the Emperor's standing
orders dictate that they can not perform some risky
but possibly war winnig maneuver (eg a deep strike
into Zho space) than they are unlikely (to say the
least) to perform such a manuever.

QUOTE
Well, then, all I can say is how could they lose? 
Even if the Imperium were forced all the way back to
Mora and Trin, they would still meet this "goal".  
But I would have to say that such a goal originates in
Zhodane, not the Imperium.
END QUOTE

I would agree with you. There are numerous hints
throughout canon on Zhodani manipulation of Imperial
high commanders. The Zho's may even be conducting a
psychohistory campaign against Imperial worlds in
general.

QUOTE
Yep, sure did.  The United States government refused
to take on North Vietnam in its own territory and
other territories were it was operating, and 
then when the chips were down totally abandoned the
government of South Vietnam and left it to be overrun.
END QUOTE

This is similar to the Korean conflict where area
commanders wished to strike support bases but where
prevented by higher command, because that would have
caused an escalation in the conflict. Maybe the Zho's
will resort to scorched earth or even nuclear
bombardment of Imperial worlds if they feel they are
losing too badly. The Frontier wars don't seem to me
to have ever been grand fight's to the death between
states, but rather minor border skirmishes which
neither side wishes to escalate. For political
reasoning behind this read 1984 by George Orwell.

QUOTE
He stated that it was his opinion that the French were
passing along these flight plans to the NVA.
END QUOTE

This would make a great campaign. Especially if the
players where Imperial Intelligence Agents of some
description. 

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://digital.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Digital How To
- Get the best out of your PC!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 19:56:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug 15 18:56:44 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Victory in the Frontier Wars
Message-ID: <20020816015518.16949.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Flykiller@aol.com

>Personally, if I were in charge, and I were to look at this 500 year
>history of retreat in the face of a technologically inferior
>opponent, I'd have to ask "What are we doing wrong here?" and then
>fix it.

Suppose you were Strephon or even Styryx.  How important is the
frontier to life at court?  These are frontier wars, after all --
they are removed from the centers of civilization, and appear to have
no danger of getting closer.  The frontiers are not completely
abandoned, but there is no need to send massive forces there -- which
might be more needed at other, more bloodthirsty, borders, like
rimward and trailing.  In terms of the good of the Imperium, we may
not be doing anything wrong there.

>>War is politics by other means, that's why generals and admirals
>>usually don't decide grand strategy.  

>In a situation where communication with the capital takes 12 months,

>they have to be.  They _are_ entrusted with grand strategy, by
>default.

There is a quasi-civil structure in place, which is the Imperial
nobility.  Many admirals and generals are nobles, of course, but they
may not be of local origin, and may not have the command of the
political situation that the Imperial nobles whose fiefs are
threatened by the invader do.  There will always be some tension
among what the people on the scene think is best, what the military
people who have been there for a shorter time think, and what the
Emperor wants for a particular region and for the Imperium as a
whole.

>North Vietnam didn't win -- the United States walked away.  Seems to
>me that many are pressing the Imperium to follow the same pattern.  

It's not a totally bad analogy.  The Imperium might very well walk
away from distant border areas.  Rome did from time to time,
depending its needs in other border areas (I think Rome is a much
better model, of course, given the time lags in communications).

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
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HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 20:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Aug 15 19:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020815101514.009e3c60@mindspring.com>
References: <7c.2c7a4f5c.2a8c4912@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815215720.016f11f8@192.168.0.1>

At 10:20 AM 8/15/2002 -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
[snip]
>In the Marches?  For the Zhodani, keeping the Imperium off balance and 
>afraid of the Zhodani.  The Imperium wants to maintain the status 
>quo.  Both sides appear to be happy with the current balance of power.
>The Fifth Frontier War was a clear victory for the Imperium without taking 
>any more real estate than Esalin.  Why?  It shattered the Sword Worlds, 
>and broke several Zhodani fleets.  The message was clear:  Attack at your 
>own risk.  I think that we will now see a century of peace between the 
>Consulate and the Imperium.

Cool...lot's of room for classic cold war espionage, double dealing and 
private little proxie wars.




---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Vikings? There ain't no Vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was
burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway.
That's our story and we're sticking to it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 20:02:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Aug 15 19:02:04 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Traveller Mental Picture of the Day
In-Reply-To: <20020815182824.55023.qmail@web20417.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815220027.026db008@192.168.0.1>

At 11:28 AM 8/15/2002 -0700, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> >From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
> >Hasn't Gvegh been described as sounding like an "asthmatic dog
> >coughing"?  That might work since the description implies a lot of
> >wierd sounds that can carry info.  (though, remember, since Vargr
> >can speak human languages, and vice versa, it should be, at least
> >mostly, sounds a human can make)(.
>Vargr always seem to sound like Scooby Doo when I play them.

"Gvegh is essentially James Brown with fur in his throat." -- Kenji Schwarz 
on the TML

 From my list of RPG sig quotes, many taken without shame from the TML
<http://www.urbin.net/EWW/sigs/rpg-sigs.html>


----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/   "He couldn't seem to stop with
the double entendres. They rose to his lips like drool from the
id." -- Deep Eddy, Bruce Sterling
----------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 20:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Aug 15 19:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1029447384.1653.ajackson@ping>
References: <200208152127.MVU00119@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815220338.0188f458@192.168.0.1>

At 02:36 PM 8/15/2002 -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>John T. Kwon writes:
> > Actually, if you've been to either the Army or Marine Sniper
> > training, I would regard you as less likely to do something
> > stupid with a rifle than almost anyone else.
>Well, being selected for sniper training does generally imply that the people
>doing the selection think you have the mentality to be able to look closely at
>people and then shoot them, which is one of those mental traits that make 
>other
>people nervous.

When my dad applied to the Army Nuclear program, one of the final tests was 
a psych evalution.
As he points out, they were judged to be stable, not necessarily sane...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ferret: Chaos with fur, claws and an odd smell.
          http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 20:09:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Aug 15 19:09:30 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <200208141339.MTJ01017@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20815.183315.9Q7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> One other note - usually an analog computer is less "buggy" 
> than a digital computer - but that may be because it is 
> usually designed as simply as possible for a single task.

That's mostly because digital setups have problems with sign reversal,
and over/underflow conditions. 

The (mechanical) analog types only have "dege" effects (ie you run off
the edge of the chart or cam). 

The electronic analog computers only need current/voltage limiters. 

Basicly, the analog systems are "linear" or at the least continuous
functions. Any "steps" are there on purpose. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 20:10:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Aug 15 19:10:29 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <3D5ABAB7.10805@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20815.183639.6p9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> John T. Kwon wrote:
>
>> I've been wondering at what tech level does the quantum 
>> computer appear?  I have the nagging feeling that in real 
>> life, the quantum computer (a practical one) may appear 
>> before I retire.  There seems to be a huge paradigm shift 
>> that will take place once such a computer can be made - a 
>> larger change than the transition from analog to digital.
>
> Perhaps in manufacturing, but not, I think in terms of systems design, 
> as all quantum devices I've seen are still binary devices.

> It will be as much a paradigm switch as going from discrete components 
> to IC's, more a matter of degree than a switch among fundamental mechanisms.

Sligt confusion here. Quantum devices are designed to act like current
components only smaller.

Quantum *computers* aren't necessarily binary. They are also in many
ways "infinitely parallel" processors. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 20:12:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Aug 15 19:12:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
In-Reply-To: <200208152250.MVX01806@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815220707.02a10e68@192.168.0.1>

At 06:50 PM 8/15/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>Glenn M. Goffin says
> >No one's worried about what you'll do with a gun, John.
> >Shawn just doesn't want any software consultants around, and
> >sometimes I can't blame him.
>Well, there's a reason I call my representative from the
>consulting company "my pimp".  He even wears those pointy
>Italian dress shoes and a really nice suit.
>Which makes the typical software consultant a ....

I personally prefer the term "mercenary".

As a wise programmer once told me when I was sweating over some assembly 
code that was supposed make a NIC work,
"Don't think of it as a career. Think of it as a paycheck."


----------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular?
----------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 20:15:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 19:15:25 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <1a2.704f94d.2a8db9db@aol.com>

 >> So, the Zhodies are free to attack at will, while the Imperials are 
afraid of 
 >> precipitating "border disputes".  Sounds like a policy tailor-made in 
 >> Zhodane.  Maybe it is.
 >
 >No, the Imperium could start a 'border dispute' if it wanted, but a 
 >serious move into Zho territory could well trigger something neither 
 >side wants. Remeber that the Zhos had actually been in that regoin of 
 >space well before the Imperium, and their side of the broder probably 
 >isn't quite so much of a quaint backwater as the Imperial side. Thus 
 >they'll tend to be a lot more sensitive to invasion.

Well, I read in Supplement 11, "By 500, the newly settled areas were adjacent 
to territories being settled by the Zhodani Consulate in the Cronor 
Subsector.  By 550, the two empires had intermingled their settlements, in 
some cases sharing systems, in others holding neighboring worlds."  This 
doesn't sound like invasion to me, unless canon has been changed (which it 
could have -- this is all I have access to).  If anything it makes the 
Zhodani sound like what they're sensitive to is not invasion, but the 
presence of anyone not under their control.

 >Raiding and broder adjustments are one thing, movement on and past 
 >Chronor are quite another.

If it was done once, it can be done again.

 >For that reason I think that if the Zhos had got what they wanted in 
 >the FFW if they didn't offer to return Rhylanor and allow the Jewells 
 >to be allied to the Imperium they could well have been in another, more 
 >major, war with the Imperium in the near future, as taking a couple of 
 >subsectors could well provoke outrage in the core.

I've looked over the maps to be found at Traveller Central, counting up 
populations and tech levels and especially shipyards.  I don't know if they 
are at all official, but if they are or are anywhere close to being so then 
for the life of me I don't understand why the Zhodani are defeating the 
Imperials, outraged or not -- unless the Imperials simply don't care or 
partly sympathize with Zhodane, but I don't see anything anywhere that would 
indicate that.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 20:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug 15 19:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Victory in the Frontier Wars
Message-ID: <20020816021824.25759.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>

>In looking at Zho motivation in the frontier wars, one thing has 
>struck me is that everyone seems to be looking for the _one_ 
>motivation that is ascribed as lasting unchanged for centuries.  It 
>is quite possible that the motivation has drifter or changed over 
>time (or is about to change).  It is also likely that, within the 
>consulate, there are different factions with different views.....

This is a good point.  Neither empire involved is static.  Both are
changing and developing over time.  

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 20:19:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 19:19:47 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <8d.1cb5daf1.2a8dbaf4@aol.com>

 >WWI was a war notable for the imbalance between attack and defense.  Due to 
the
 >mechanics of force concentration in Traveller, unless you posit _very_
 >effective ground batteries (which one might; buried meson sites can be 
pretty
 >tough) the fact that in Traveller it's very hard to intercept an enemy fleet
 >means that the balance tends to favor the offense.

Are there any official rules for ground batteries?  I've made up some of my 
own, and they make sense to me, but I'd like to hear what else has been done.

I agree about the dominance of offense.  That's why I think a policy of 
"defense" in this environment is bound to lose.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 20:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Aug 15 19:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <15a.1284a6d1.2a8d9b5f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815222148.026db008@192.168.0.1>

At 08:03 PM 8/15/2002 -0400, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
>  >Does a downport
>  >serve as a hub? If so, why? If I am a factory owner and I need parts
>  >regularly shipped to me from Regina, why would I want to travel halfway
>  >around the world to pick up goods at the downport that could have been
>  >picked up in orbit?
>Taxes, immigration / emmigration control, customs, safety inspections, law
>enforcement.  Also, while it may be advantageous to drop stuff from orbit, it
>may be more advantageous for ships that are picking up stuff to know where to
>go to start looking.

Which is why tramp freighters love low tech worlds with class X starports, 
no orbital nannies and stuff they can buy cheap and sell high.

Speaking of which, the Frengei episode of Enterprise was on last night.
Clint Howard as a Frengei was inspired!



----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Government does not cause affluence. Citizens of totalitarian
countries have plenty of government and nothing of anything
else." -- P. J. O'Rourke, EAT THE RICH
----------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 20:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Thu Aug 15 19:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A bunch of Trav related stuff
Message-ID: <20020816022734.66850.qmail@web11301.mail.yahoo.com>

Just basically a bunch of Trav related stuff I have
been thinking about.

One: Imperial Interdiction.
I was thinking about the Imperial rules of war and
what would be necessary to succesfully interdict a
world. I came to the conclusion that there must be
some sort of Space/ground interdiction vessel to guard
against the use of nuclear weapons (possible by a
rebel faction). Such a ship would need long range
nuclear dampers and/or laser and missile turrets. I
was thinking that it could be possible for such ships
to attune there dampers so that each ship acted as a
single node thereby increasing the dampers range. Such
a vessel might also be equipped to act as a strike
vessel with a marine complement, and a NBC team. It
would be a great place for PC's.

Two: Landed Nobles.
Imperial nobles could be modified so that instead of
the title determining land holdings, the land holdings
determine the title. For example if you are the head
of government on Regina the Imperium recognises you as
the Duke of Regina. If you are over thrown, your
succesor is recognised and so on. This would mean land
grabs and military expansion would be condoned and
even encouraged by the Imperium (possible as a way of
keeping noble society "fit" and ready for external
conflict). For extra flavour you could have heridetery
landed nobles (ie the land is passed down the
generations), some of these who had lost there land
yet still acted like nobles would be perfect for an
Evil-GM (TM).

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://digital.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Digital How To
- Get the best out of your PC!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 20:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Thu Aug 15 19:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Aramis ss. navy builds IMTU
References: <3D5A749C.3AD1B9B0@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3D5C668E.6020901@yarranet.net.au>

Roseberry wrote:

> These are the initial navy builds for fleets in the Aramis subsector.
> Done using "meduim navies". The budgets listed below are the usual peace
> time budgets times ten. Tech levels are listed for the 80% of the fleets
> that are modern; obsolete is of course at least 1 TL less.
> 
> TLF Imperial Forces, Aramis subsector, MCr 3478268.928
[snip]

> TL9 Junidy MCr 11550000 
> Thats right friends! Junidy has 11.5 TC Squadrons.

Kind of makes a mockery of the Patron in The Traveller Adventure that 
says he can get you landed on the surfacwe without encountering customs.


> Attention Phill Webb:
> What you could do, in lieu of quadloos, is to send 72 crates [18dt] of
> Zilan wine. That would help me finish this quickly. Course you could do
> it yourself with HGS now that the hard part is done. What ever floats
> your boat.


That's a tall order, just the thought of all that paperwork is giving me 
a headache. I'll see what I can do and I might even throw in the Groats 
for free anyway.

What interested me about the Lanth Navies was the Imperial Navy and 
Scouts info as well as the individual planets. Particularly when most of 
them came from Supp 7 or 9.

I am intrigued by the Junidy ships that accomodate Llellewyloly and 
wonder if, because of the political situation, the officers might all be 
human with strong division between officers and ratings ala the 
Gazelle's anti-mutiny provisions.

Phill
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/traveller/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 21:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Aug 15 20:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <200208141347.MTJ01845@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20815.190814.3X0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> One of the questions I have always wondered about concerning 
> the two slit experiment is the source of the interference.  
>
> If we don't measure the photon, we get an interference 
> pattern.  Even if we send only one photon through at a time.  
> If we measure the photon *after* it goes through the slits, 
> it takes either one slit or the other.  In any case, the 
> photon has been interfered with prior to going through the 
> slits - in one case to produce an interference pattern, and 
> in the other case to go one way or the other.
>
> Something is interfering with the photon.  And it's not 
> something visible in the experiment.  So what is it?  Don't 
> retreat into probability functions, please - those are only 
> after-the-fact descriptions - not explanations of what is 
> happenning.

It interferes with *itself*. Remember, everything is *both* "particle"
and "wave" at the same time.

The reason for invoking math is because the equations describe things
without dragging in all the baggage that words like "wave" and
"particle" do. Baggage that *doesn't apply* at quantum scales.

Lots of this violates "common sense", because common sense is based on
our experience with the way things work at scales were quantum effects
are mostly invisible. 

The equations describe what happens. The various "descriptions" that
don't use math are attempts use things we are familiar with as
analogies. And as such, they are all fundamentally flawed.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 21:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Thu Aug 15 20:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F1669@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F1669@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <8gnoluk432jit00apbdaf95dm876pbfk74@4ax.com>

On Thu, 15 Aug 2002 13:04:15 -0700, "DeGraff, Jesse"
<Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> wrote:

Aw...  Shucks.

You like me; you really like me!

>Okay, JR gets the "Hardest Vote to Record" award ;)
>Jesse
>
>> While my first impression was to agree with you on the Beware
>> typeface, vdub or newbrilliant, being less literal and more graphic in
>> design, would both appear to be more amenable to a heavily graphic
>> logo.
>>=20
>> That being said, I'll also admit to a fondness for the appearance of
>> qswitchax.  It is nice, readable and the underplayed
>> descenders/ascenders keep it interesting.
>>=20
>> Given that the Famille is an old, well-established and respected
>> venture, you may want to consider more traditional typefaces.  The
>> typefaces you are presently favoring might become as embarrassing as a
>> Peter Max designed corporate logo would appear to today's eyes.
>>=20
>> --=20
>> JR Holmes


--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 21:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 20:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
Message-ID: <135.12f79829.2a8dca55@aol.com>

>> That's because the _player_ of the character with the high gun skill
>> didn't have to work for it, and in the process learn all the other
>> important stuff that goes with the ability--including when NOT to
>> use it.
>
>Well, and the fact that the _player_ doesn't face real repercussions
>when his _character_ is shot at.  Much as in a FPS players charge into
>gunfire, knowing that they probably won't die, so too do players in
>RPGs act much more brashly than they would in real life.

I've always felt that was one of the major attractions of roleplaying games. 
It's cathartic, theraputic, and stress reducing.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 21:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu Aug 15 20:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
References: <1a2.704f94d.2a8db9db@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D5C7130.CA9388CD@mindspring.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> 
>  >> So, the Zhodies are free to attack at will, while the Imperials are
> afraid of
>  >> precipitating "border disputes".  Sounds like a policy tailor-made in
>  >> Zhodane.  Maybe it is.
<snip>
> then
> for the life of me I don't understand why the Zhodani are defeating the
> Imperials, outraged or not -- unless the Imperials simply don't care or
> partly sympathize with Zhodane, but I don't see anything anywhere that would
> indicate that.

They_are_mind rapers after all is said and done. While I wouldn't do
anything that would harm the Imperium... What's that? Yes, my queen.
Admiral, order the fleet to depot/corridor for refit. Don't' question
me!

-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
The simplest act of surrealism is to walk out into the street,
gun in hand, and shoot at random.
           -Andr Breton

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 21:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 20:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <OFAE287A02.39094288-ONCA256C16.0083C037-CA256C17.0013FE8D@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Jesse asked:
>Okay kiddies, you get to help design the chaos.  I'm trying to decide
>on the official Famille Spofulam logo font...

Actually, my thought for the Family was the old Cadillac font. Y'know, the 
running-writing that all links along the bottom of the page as though 
there was a ruler there, constraining the writer. It was on those pink 
Cadillacs. I've been trying - fairly unsuccessfully - to find a good 
example, but try this:
        http://www.car-nection.com/yann/Dbas_ima/56elscrp.JPG

I thought that would be a suitably-retro look for them (it's the sort of 
thing I think the boss would do). Of course, you're then left with the 
problem of creating it...

However, if that's too pop-culture, my second choice is "vdub" for its 
soulless look, and my third is your original "beware".
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 21:39:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 20:39:47 2002
Subject: [TML] No longer Re: Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <110.16c550c6.2a8dcdc6@aol.com>

>>> TC needs to work on character names. Would you believe there's a Colonel
>>> Strokov?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Les
>>> 
>>
>>Just so long as there's no Colonel Lingus.

Or worse, a Gunnery Sergeant by the same name...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 21:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 20:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <190.b900653.2a8dcf52@cs.com>

In a message dated 8/15/02 10:39:48 PM Central Daylight Time, 
david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au writes: 
Actually, my thought for the Family was the old Cadillac font. Y'know, the 
running-writing that all links along the bottom of the page as though 
there was a ruler there, constraining the writer. It was on those pink 
Cadillacs. I've been trying - fairly unsuccessfully - to find a good 
example, but try this:
        http://www.car-nection.com/yann/Dbas_ima/56elscrp.JPG

I thought that would be a suitably-retro look for them (it's the sort of 
thing I think the boss would do). Of course, you're then left with the 
problem of creating it...

However, if that's too pop-culture, my second choice is "vdub" for its 
soulless look, and my third is your original "beware".
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson      

I've got one called Lambrettista that's kind of like that. I'll see if I can 
find it online.

Doug Grimes


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 21:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Aug 15 20:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The Limits of Imperial Intervention
In-Reply-To: <200208160038.MWB00587@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208160038.MWB00587@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020816135326.A27354@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> When the Tigress shows up, and the Imperium is wroth with a 
> particular personage, would it be suicide to step into plain 
> view?

Could be, yes.


> would it be possible for the Tigress to have a specialized
> assassination laser?

A standard turret laser would probably do.  Although absorbed by the
atmosphere, it has enough energy to evacuate a tunnel through the air.
If the beam lasts somewhere between a few tens of microseconds up to a
few milliseconds, much of the energy should get through.

It should look and sound much like a perfectly straight lightning
bolt.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 22:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 21:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Motown Keyboard Kill
In-Reply-To: <002601c2454a$f25d4350$1001a8c0@sauron>
References: <001901c24487$2cd05640$e4c187d9@fg>
 <002601c2454a$f25d4350$1001a8c0@sauron>
Message-ID: <3179.64.8.3.28.1029470597.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

> Nick Wright wrote :
>> Frankie (Munden) wrote:
>>
>> "I know Loren, Martin and John,    ...."
>>
>> Keyboard Kill, Sir.
>
> I have to admit that this kill was completely unintended.
> So unintended, in fact, that I still don't get it.
> Can you let me in on the joke, please?
>
> Frankie

Ever hear of Abraham, Martin, and John - the song?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 22:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug 15 21:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The Limits of Imperial Intervention
In-Reply-To: <200208160058.MWB01944@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B981C89E.69E0C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/15/02 5:58 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

>> Heh.  Pretty large device, that; beam diffraction would be
>> about 1/4 million or about 3" from a 200 mile orbit, which
>> would limit its applicability against hardened targets of
>> any type, but 14 MW is certainly overkill on personell.
>>=20
> Apparently one of two proposed configurations for the Space
> Based Laser, and capable of destroying any current model of
> missile booster during boost phase in a few seconds of
> firing.  Missile skins are apparently quite thin, and making
> them thicker really degrades their performance, especially
> range.
>=20

OK, now get funding for the project from congress.  Technology. Heck, that'=
s
the easy part.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 22:08:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Aug 15 21:08:47 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <006601c243e0$71b02620$67e84242@upstairs>
Message-ID: <20815.200022.5R6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> As the wave functions interacting you get spreading "waves" of
>> probability. That is, the probability that it was over here interacts
>> with the probability that some other particle was somewhere else,
>> leading to further probability distributions for the current and
> future
>> positions of both particles.
>> Multiply that by the huge numbers of particles that are involved in
>> most things and it gets *really* ugly.
>
> That's very interesting. I didn't realize that. Makes things like
> trek-style matter-transport and time travel a real mess, doesn't it?

Well, Trek style transporters can't work anyway. Nor can any other
"scan and transmit" type.

But it's not impossible (just really, *really* unlikely) that you could
build something that *uses* the probability functions to cause things
to go from A to B all at once.

>> Once you "make an observation", you've pinned the particle down as to
>> it either is or is not where you "looked". With the result that any
>> probabilty waves for other particles that are inconsistent with that
>> result vanish. Ones that are consistent with it remain.
>> This is properly discussed with math. And *I* am not up to it.
> ..and...
>> It's not "multiple places". It's that it's only "partially" anywhere
>> (the probability functions) until the wave "collapses".
>
> I (currently) wouldn't really be able to follow the math. I'll take your
> word for the results.
>
> Just vanish? Is it default that no particles can exist in a set
> form/place until  the instant they  interact with another particle? How
> is there _any_ casuality at all?!? And doesn't this mean that future
> events (interaction results) force interaction consequences to affect
> the past? Seems like there would be waves of probablility effect going
> both forward and backwards at the same time.

The *particles* don't vanish. The *probability waves* vanish.

Until you make the observation, there might be a 10% chance that the
particle had passed thru some point where it would have caused another
particle to have a 5% chance of being some other place (think of
billard balls colliding and deflecting). 

But if you detect the first particle someplace where it *can't* have
deflected the other particle then the probable positions for the other
particle that depended on it being deflected no longer exist as
possibilities. 

Think of a shell game. An *honest* one. 

Until you pick up one of the shells, there's a 1/3 probability of it
being under any of the shells.

If you pick up one shell, there's now either a 0% or 100% probability
of it being under that shell. 

If the result was 100%, it's there, and there's a 0% probability of it
being under each of the other shells. 

If the result was 0%, then there's *now* a 50% probability of it being
under either of the other shells.

With quantum effects, it gets *much* hairier, because unlike the shell
game, the pea isn't "really" under any of the shells until you look. Or
rather, it really "is" 1/3 present under each of them.

> Thanks for the explanations. Gives me some tools to twist up how
> Jumpspace might look/work/etc.

My "take" on it is that a ship in jumpspace is in a "bubble" of normal
space (well, relatively normal) space that insulates it from that laws
that hold in jumpspace. 

On of the things that distinguishes our universe gfrom possible others
is the value of some natural constant. One of them has to have a value
*very* close to the one we see (like to one part in a trillion!) or
atoms more complex that hydrogen couldn't exist.

I've suggested to the folks who have the J-drive venting hydrogen
during the jump that they could argue that this constant is outside
that range in J-space, and the hydrogen is the safest thing to vent to
keep J-space (and its laws) from "creeping in" because it is already
"compatible" with the laws of j-space, so you don't get the nasty
energy releases that you get when more complex atoms cross the
boundary. 

I don't buy that theory, myself, but it makes a nice handwave. <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 22:09:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Aug 15 21:09:47 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <007801c243e1$ee731fe0$67e84242@upstairs>
Message-ID: <20815.202420.2b8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> From: "Timothy Little" <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
>> >  In any case, the photon has been interfered with prior to going
>> > through the slits - in one case to produce an interference pattern,
>> > and in the other case to go one way or the other.
>>
>> No.  It interferes with itself in the former case, after going through
>> both slits.
>> It has its wavefunction dispersed by your measuring device in the
>> latter, giving a different pattern.  Typically just a 1-slit pattern.
>
> I'm just barging in all over the place. If a particle interefers with
> itself, doesn't that mean (in some sense) that it is in two places at
> once? (Kind of like bumping into itself.)

No. As a wave, (think a single "wavefront", spreading out from a point)
it is "spread out". That's the probability wave I mentioned. The higher
the wave, the more likely the photon is at that point.

When the wave front hits the slit's you get two, weaker, wavefront's
spreading from each slit. And interfering with each other. 

Where it parts company from the sort of experiment yyou can do in a
wave tank, is that when you observe it, it's suddenly a single "spike"
in one spot (or flat water, indicating that it's somewhere else).

That "collapse of the wave function" is one of the biggest unanswered
(and possibly unanswerable) questions in quantum mechanics.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 22:11:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug 15 21:11:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
In-Reply-To: <135.12f79829.2a8dca55@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B981C961.69E11%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/15/02 8:24 PM, GDWGAMES@aol.com at GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

>> Well, and the fact that the _player_ doesn't face real repercussions
>> when his _character_ is shot at.  Much as in a FPS players charge into
>> gunfire, knowing that they probably won't die, so too do players in
>> RPGs act much more brashly than they would in real life.
>=20
> I've always felt that was one of the major attractions of roleplaying gam=
es.
> It's cathartic, theraputic, and stress reducing.
>=20

Absolutely!  In a recent PBeM game I was invited to join, it was suggested =
I
play a computer expert.  I do consulting in Real Life(tm). The last thing I
want to do is role play it.

The fun is being someone you're not, and sometimes, giving vent to all thos=
e
atavistic urges you've been storing up all week.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 22:22:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Angus McDonald)
Date: Thu Aug 15 21:22:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockheads Unite!
Message-ID: <OFE2C1022D.A38EEE11-ONCA256C16.008024CB@dnsalias.com>

Some of these assumptions are pretty weird. I mean, hi-tech stuff has got 
to be worth more than Cr 10,000 per dton?! (how many gauss rifles in a 
dton?) Then again, a true bulk trader IMTU would be something more like 
100,000 dton in size with at least 80,000 dton cargo space (although I've 
not put that through any sort of ship generator - that's just lining 
Traveller up with modern-day Earth bulk cargo ships).

Also, those bulk carriers do not need to visit the starport to pick up 
their stuff, assuming vacc-rated cargo modules are used, you can then just 
have contragrav lifters bring up massive amounts of stuff to low orbit and 
dump straight into the ship.

>>>
Bear in mind, a base pop-A (10 billion) TL-F world has a GWP on the order 
of
100 trillion credits; if one assumes a typical cargo value of Cr 10,000 
per
dton, trade at 10% of GWP per annum is about a billion tons per year, or a 
bit
over 100,000 dtons per hour.  If we assume that the average bulk trader is 
a
2,000 dton ship with a bit over 1,000 dtons of cargo capacity, that's one 
bulk
trader leaving every 40 seconds or so; with an average time in port of 3-4
days, there would be on the order of 10,000 such bulk traders in orbit at 
any
given time.  Is that how active you really imagine a high-pop starport to 
be?
<<<

---  from  ---
Angus McDonald
www.falkayn.com

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 22:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 21:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockheads Unite!
Message-ID: <bd.257b327f.2a8ddd6a@aol.com>

 >Bear in mind, a base pop-A (10 billion) TL-F world has a GWP on the order of
 >100 trillion credits; if one assumes a typical cargo value of Cr 10,000 per
 >dton, trade at 10% of GWP per annum is about a billion tons per year, or a 
bit
 >over 100,000 dtons per hour.  If we assume that the average bulk trader is a
 >2,000 dton ship with a bit over 1,000 dtons of cargo capacity, that's one 
bulk
 >trader leaving every 40 seconds or so; with an average time in port of 3-4
 >days, there would be on the order of 10,000 such bulk traders in orbit at 
any
 >given time.  Is that how active you really imagine a high-pop starport to 
be?

Actually, it looks doable for an A7 world.  If you have a 20,000 acre 
starport (that's only 5 by 10 miles) you could assign 2 acres to each vessel. 
 This is quite adequate, and if you have the equivilant of an underground 
switching yard beneath the landing zone to handle cargo input and output then 
cargo passing should be fairly easy, as would be crew movement.  If it does 
get too crowded then you can always build a second starport.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 23:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 22:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
Message-ID: <134.12f1ff90.2a8de23d@aol.com>

 >> losing streak.  Personally, if I were in charge, and I  were to look at 
this
 >> 500 year history of retreat in the face of a  technologically inferior
 >> opponent, I'd have to ask "What are we doing wrong  here?" and then fix 
it.
 >
 >Well, the Zhodani may not have been technologically inferior for all that 
long.
 >They were less affected by the long night, and might have actually been on
 >average higher-tech in the early wars.

(Did the Zhodani experience a Long Night?)

Now that would be a valid and fully understandable reason.  But since it has 
never been brought up in any context, and since canon makes no mention of 
this at all (to my knowledge, which is admittedly thin), then I'd have to say 
that that is because these relative circumstances were always in place.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 23:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 22:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
Message-ID: <194.b959f41.2a8de414@aol.com>

 >In looking at Zho motivation in the frontier wars, one thing has 
 >struck me is that everyone seems to be looking for the _one_ 
 >motivation that is ascribed as lasting unchanged for centuries.

I hadn't thought I was looking for any motivation on their part.  They keep 
aggressively coming -- does the why matter?  And even if you knew the genuine 
why at any given time, how could you seek to come to terms with it except by 
defeating it?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 23:16:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Thu Aug 15 22:16:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <ML-2.3.1029342430.8394.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3D5C676C.3050406@usisp.com>

>
>
>
>Because there's a mismatch between rhetoric and reality?
>
   
    There is not. Trade between planets in the Imperium is very similar 
to trade between counties on our planet. If the rules do not match 
that...then as far as I am concerned, those rules are broken. Humans 
3000 years from now will act pretty much as we do here on earth now. And 
that includes our desires for profit.

>





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 23:17:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Thu Aug 15 22:17:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
References: <200208140119.MSJ03121@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <20020814182045.B22124@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3D5C63AA.6020706@usisp.com>

>
>
>
>A detailed and self-consistent set of rules for NPC psychology in
>general would be handy, including motivations, internal conflicts,
>biases, thought patterns, and personality traits that aren't simple
>advantages or disadvantages.  Non-human psychology as well, of course.
>
>Well, where is it?  I want it yesterday!
>

    Patience...I'm working on it.






From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 23:18:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Thu Aug 15 22:18:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
References: <B97F02B7.697AF%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <200208140119.MSJ03121@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <B97F02B7.697AF%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020814085915.009eeec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3D5C65B3.8010101@usisp.com>

>  I give fifteen seconds to declare something.  As long as a person has 
> done something in that time span, he gets to proceed with his turn.  
> If not, it's a pass. 


    I used to do that some twenty years ago. I even ceremoniously 
clicked the stopwatch for effect. Its amazing, but when under extreme 
pressure, must of my players just started sprayed lead full auto all 
around until next round. Lots of players were shot in the back 
accidentally that way.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 23:18:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Thu Aug 15 22:18:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Economics (was: warship optimization)
References: <20020813044724.1608.72814.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentra l.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020813085957.01cf1500@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <3D5C3695.7030305@usisp.com>

>
> The trade rules where *always* geared toward small tramp freighters, 
> not large corporate merchantmen.
>
    That is what I found when I studied the rulesets that I still have. 
Pocket Empires is the only set that works on such a large scale. It can 
be used for markets and politics, but I haven't seen a reasonable way to 
scale that down to pc level. What if rockheads played it separately from 
role-players and let the role-players use it as background. It may be 
more consistant than the oth.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 23:20:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Thu Aug 15 22:20:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D53003A.1070102@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020809190742.B3949@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D540E41.1040509@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020810113922.D5883@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D58064C.4020008@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020813123534.B18707@freeman.little-possums.net> <m3d6smqzeu.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> <20020814105743.D21297@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3D5C5F69.2060100@usisp.com>

Timothy Little wrote:

>Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
>
>>Can one vuiew the rules as applying solely to shipping by free
>>traders?
>>
>
>Not really, but one could modify them in such a way.
>
>The rules talk frequently about how the full trade volume is not
>available to tramps, and that most of the trade on high-volume routes
>is carried by regular liners with substantially lower costs.  The
>tables already reduce tramp freight on high-volume routes.
>
>(Low volume routes do not have enough trade to support anything but
>tramps)
>
    That level is nowhere near what is stated in MT or hard times as 
common in the third imperium; therfore, those rules are either broken or 
GT has forked the oth



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 23:21:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Thu Aug 15 22:21:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <ML-2.3.1029256363.5566.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3D5C39A2.8070105@usisp.com>

>
>
>  high trade means a lot
>of transfer of ideas and people, and would tend to reduce the variation between
>worlds in Traveller.  Based on the extreme variations which can occur, trade
>must be fairly minor in the Imperium.
>
    It seems to me that high trade is the main reason for the Imperium's 
existance. At least that is the assumption behind Megatraveller and 
therefore the 3rd Imperium. As far as variations go, in America, we have 
high speed communication and transport, yet we seem just as fragmented 
as ever. Making social judgements in Traveller is probably much more 
difficult and arbitrary than making economic judgements. There don't 
seem to be any real set rules to use as guidelines, so anybody can 
pretty much have any kind of social order they like.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 23:22:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Thu Aug 15 22:22:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02081114040900.00604@linux> <20020812083508.B15923@freeman.little-possums.net> <02081219072102.00595@linux> <20020814105204.C21297@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3D5C5EB7.3080006@usisp.com>

>
>
>GURPS Traveller: Far Trader.  It gives figures for total volume of
>trade between any two worlds based on population, technology, trade
>codes, distance, trade routes, political ties, and starport type.  Sum
>to get total trade with the rest of the universe.  It also gives a
>figure for GWP.
>
>For almost all high-pop planets, trade is less than 1% of GWP.  For
>more than half of them, it's less than 0.3%.
>

        But that is far less that canonic if going by essays written for 
MT are correct and they are as they were written as part of that 
ruleset. Perhaps Gurps forked the OTH or that those rules are geared for 
small PC ships and cargo manifest genertation. Having never seen GT/FT, 
I can only guess. But, I do know that those figures do not match the 
trade levels said to be found in the third Imperium according to the 
games' designers. ( Will quote rules if I have to )

>>1 man uses .064 KM^2 per year to feed only himself given continuous
>>growing seasons,
>>
>
>As I said, that's *way* too high.  It fails a basic reality check.
>
>Real-world figures are more like 0.005 km^2 per person, with the usual
>seasonal variations, and little attempts to minimise land area used.
>
>It should be substantially less for TL 15, less for a world where
>surface area is more expensive to develop than Earth's, and less stil
>for a society in which terajoules of energy are literally cheaper than
>dirt.  If you're also assuming continuous growing seasons, reduce it
>further again.
>
>Given those factors, I'd guess that the World Tamers Handbook
>overestimates by a factor of a hundred.
>
   
    That's quite possible. When I did my test, I did not compare given 
numbers to RW for such things.

>>	If it was stopped for war, then as a hi-tech, hi-pop
>>world,....  it would've been invaded or bombed back to stone age
>>anyways.One needs to know the causes in order to guess the effects.
>>
>
>If it was bombed back to the stone age, then obviously it wasn't loss
>of trade that caused the decrease in tech levels!  To say otherwise is
>to confuse correlation with causation.
>
    As I mentioned in another post, I believe that the loss of tech 
levels was caused by loss of trade. The lower tech level represents the 
local manufacturing tech level. The previous tech level represented 
goods  that were commonly available....as imports.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 23:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Thu Aug 15 22:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <ML-2.3.1029366595.4851.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3D5C6D32.8010206@usisp.com>

>
>
>It can be diverse.  It can't be as diverse as the OTU, particularly in terms of
>TL; essentially the only way the TL distribution in the OTU makes any sense is
>if trade is really minimal.
>

    I have decided that because of overly simplified portions of the 
uwp, tech level distribution is flawed.
Tech levels should follow population, not starport availability. You 
have to have enough people to build technology to have it. That is why 
Lichtenstein can't build their own f-18 Viper (that's what the pilots 
called them during the first CQ). That's why Fiji can't build a Cray 
XMP. If they want it, they have to import it.
    Listed Tech levels indicate goods that are available, not what goods 
are local manufactured. And THAT depends on infrastructure and enough 
people to run the factories. The social side of the uwp needs to be 
revamped.

>>It has been stated many places in many published works, in the
>>*authorial* voice that the Imperium exists to promote and protect
>>trade between worlds.  It's not just in-game rhetoric.
>>
>Actually, that can be true even if there isn't much trade.  It just implies
>that the Imperium probably isn't very powerful.
>

    That's just plain wrong. That's all I have to say about that, 
because the published works are clear on that point.





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 23:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Thu Aug 15 22:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economics
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02081114275201.00604@linux> <20020812075652.A15923@freeman.little-possums.net> <02081221130903.00595@linux> <20020814103258.B21297@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3D5C4399.3010500@usisp.com>

>
>
>
>Hardly!  I'm just saying that they are canonical, published rules.
>Given my poor reception last time I said that they implied
>ridiculously low trade, my posts are more along the lines of "if you
>use these rules, here's the consequences: like it or not".
>
    My apologies for sounding confrontational. I do not use GT., but 
rather MT and a mix of whatever seems appropriate, and they are also 
canon. It seems that we are comparing apples to oranges in that all 
rules except pocket empires deals with small trade for pc's and not 
large trade for political/strategic play. Either that or the OTH has 
been forked. MT definately calls for massive interstellar trade.

>>
>Is this set of rules available anymore?  I haven't been able to find
>them.  Also, is it designed to model the Imperium around 1120?
>
        I haven't seen it anywhere for sale in years. It is part of T4 
and models the early Third Imperium, the expansion of Sylea or the end 
of the Long Night , if you will. As it readily meshes with canon, and 
certain RW laws being consistant, I find it models any era very nicely. 
It gives one the big picture but few details.

>>As an aside...the projected drop in tech levels concerns me and
>>raises questions for me exactly what tech levels are. Are they
>>measures of what is available, or are they measures of manufacturing
>>capabilities.
>>
>
>Under the results of the Far Trader rules, the two are pretty much
>synonymous.
>
>With more trade, they diverge.  I generally take them to mean what is
>available locally at close to list price.  Higher technology goods or
>services are usually available, but at a significant premium, and may
>be harder to find.
>
    The projected tech drop really bothered me, but I think I see the 
reason. My test world was at t15 with trade, but up to 5 levels less 
without trade. I think that implies that the difference was caused by 
off world trade. In other words, the higher tech levels were imported 
and the lower tech level represents local manufacturing capabilities.
    When considering a small mining outpost at high tech, it makes 
perfect sense. The high tech is imported, but the mining post is not set 
up to manufacture such things as chip fabrication plants,  and as its 
capital is spent on mining and not much else, it has a low tech level 
 for manufacturing. I think real world examples abound. Diego Garcia has 
high tech but  almost all of it is an import and not made there.
       This may have a significant effect on whether a world fails 
without trade or not. It may make some rockballs unable to be self 
suffient as local manufactured tech levels may be abyssmally low.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 23:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug 15 22:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
References: <194.b959f41.2a8de414@aol.com>
Message-ID: <009501c244e7$849fe240$850dbd50@martinjd>

>
> I hadn't thought I was looking for any motivation on their part.  They
keep
> aggressively coming -- does the why matter?  And even if you knew the
genuine
> why at any given time, how could you seek to come to terms with it except
by
> defeating it?

There is a reference somewhere (I can't remember where) that the Zhodani
want a defensive mindset on the part of the Imperials, so that the "big one"
is less likely to happen (or less likely to start with an Imperial assault).
Thus they have established the pattern of sudden attacks but limited wars.
They don't want any more territory.

What they want is to forestall the Imperials from deciding to expand and
pushing into Zho space, until eventually it becomes a big fight for
survival. These limited wars are fought on a tacit understanding that
they're just border jobs, and... "you don't want this getting any bigger now
do you?"

The rules are now established, and so long as both sides remain within them,
neither can lose too much.

Somewhat similar to the 7 years war period, I suppose. Grab what you can and
sue for peace.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 23:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 22:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
Message-ID: <46.2c1dfc1f.2a8decd8@aol.com>

 >QUOTE
 >>In a situation where communication with the capital
 >>takes 12 months, they have to be.  They _are_
 >>entrusted with grand strategy, by default.
 >END QUOTE
 > 
 >No they formulate grand strategy in accordance with
 >orders from there superiors. If the Emperor's standing
 >orders dictate that they can not perform some risky
 >but possibly war winnig maneuver (eg a deep strike
 >into Zho space) than they are unlikely (to say the
 >least) to perform such a manuever.

Would these Emperors perfer ceding yet more territory to facing risk?  What 
Emperor would issue a standing order consisting of, "They may strike us, but 
you may not strike them"?  This would be an aggressor Zhodani admiral's 
dream.  I would have doubts about such an Emperor.

 >QUOTE
 >>Well, then, all I can say is how could they lose? 
 >>Even if the Imperium were forced all the way back to
 >>Mora and Trin, they would still meet this "goal".  
 >>But I would have to say that such a goal originates in
 >>Zhodane, not the Imperium.
 >END QUOTE
 >
 >I would agree with you. There are numerous hints
 >throughout canon on Zhodani manipulation of Imperial
 >high commanders. The Zho's may even be conducting a
 >psychohistory campaign against Imperial worlds in
 >general.

And here in this newsletter.

 >Maybe the Zho's
 >will resort to scorched earth or even nuclear
 >bombardment of Imperial worlds if they feel they are
 >losing too badly.

I dunno ... if they're losing badly already, and they do that, then they'll 
get back twice as bad as they give.  Unless they believe in the futility of 
life and the beauty of death, I can't see them or anyone doing that.  I'd see 
them instead playing to their strength and leaving as many hidden psi talents 
behind as possible to conduct guerilla warfare, espionage, spying, and 
undermining from within to prepare for the return of Zhodani rule if they can 
achieve it.  Dealing with this would be a major Imperial commitment, 
occupying at least a generation, and would be a better buffer against 
Imperial advance than any scorched earth.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 23:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 22:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
Message-ID: <8b.1c8c3f7f.2a8ded7e@aol.com>

 >QUOTE
 >>He stated that it was his opinion that the French were
 >>passing along these flight plans to the NVA.
 >END QUOTE
 >
 >This would make a great campaign. Especially if the
 >players where Imperial Intelligence Agents of some
 >description.

You're right, it most certainly would.  Man, just thinking about it, the 
ideas come rolling in ....

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 00:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 23:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Victory in the Frontier Wars
Message-ID: <aa.1024aea9.2a8df11b@aol.com>

 >>Personally, if I were in charge, and I were to look at this 500 year
 >>history of retreat in the face of a technologically inferior
 >>opponent, I'd have to ask "What are we doing wrong here?" and then
 >>fix it.
 >
 >Suppose you were Strephon or even Styryx.  How important is the
 >frontier to life at court?

Good question.  Impossible to say -- this is, after all, a game where the 
referee sets his own world conditions.  If it's like the late degraded Roman 
Empire, then yes, they may disregard it.  If it's like the British Empire on 
which the sun never set, they would respond to it.  I've heard it said, I 
can't remember where, that anyone who assaulted the British Empire knew that 
someday, next week or ten years later, the British troops would finally show 
up and something bad would happen to whoever had insulted them.  If the 
Imperium really is a rule of men and not ideas then it would vary from 
Emperor to Emperor -- but I would say that serious Emperors would attempt to 
make up for any laxity of predecessors.  In any case, Deneb would not ignore 
it.  Personally I would go with the British model, but if someone likes the 
drunken Emperor or Zhodani mole better then I'm sure there are just as many 
gaming opportunities with those approaches.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 00:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Aug 15 23:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E0D@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020815231510.009f6850@mindspring.com>

At 06:36 PM 8/15/02 -0400, you wrote:

> >Well, being selected for sniper training does generally imply that the
> >people doing the selection think you have the mentality to be able to look
> >closely at people and then shoot them, which is one of those mental 
> traits that
> >make other people nervous.
>
>Why is that different from any serviceman? Every Marine, from cook to
>commandant, is expected to use his weapon to kill individual enemies if
>neccessary. Same goes for Army infantry.

Soldiers in combat tend to think in terms of "I'm firing in self defense" 
or "I can't let the team down."  Snipers go out alone or in 2-man teams and 
hunt specific targets of high value.

>The biggest asset for a sniper is not cold-bloodedness or the will to kill,
>but an unnatural amount of patience, the ability to refrain from moving so
>much as an eyebrow for umpteen hours, and of course a steady aim.
>I sure as hell couldn't do it. Just give me my Dragon and show me where the
>tanks are.

It takes a special amount of patience.  Being a natural shot helps.

>In my experience snipers are very calm, easygoing, and fairly mellow. Not
>wild-eyed Whitmans and Oswalds.

On the contrary.  Whitman showed an amazing level of preparation and site 
work.  He picked a location that gave him amazing sight lines,  made most 
of his shots count, and could have held off the police for some time.  In 
the interest of avoiding a flame war, I shall refrain from giving my 
opinion of Oswald.  :)


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Some days, you just can't get rid  of a bomb!"
                     -Adam West, as Batman 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 00:24:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Aug 15 23:24:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1029447384.1653.ajackson@ping>
References: <200208152127.MVU00119@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020815232004.009f60d0@mindspring.com>

At 02:36 PM 8/15/02 -0700, you wrote:
>John T. Kwon writes:
>
> > Actually, if you've been to either the Army or Marine Sniper
> > training, I would regard you as less likely to do something
> > stupid with a rifle than almost anyone else.
>
>Well, being selected for sniper training does generally imply that the people
>doing the selection think you have the mentality to be able to look closely at
>people and then shoot them, which is one of those mental traits that make 
>other
>people nervous.

Not just that, but evaluate and choose the person who will be killed.  You 
have to be able to say "I will kill that Colonel first, then the radioman." 
and do it.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 00:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Aug 15 23:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <00a701c24484$67ca7ad0$67e84242@upstairs>
Message-ID: <20815.223252.7m6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jens Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
>> That a photon creates an interference pattern with itself means simply
>> this: That viewing a photon as a particle is not correct.
>
>> Photons can in some situations (excitation/de-excitation of atoms for
>> example) be viewed as particles, in other situations (interference
>> patterns etc) they can be viewed as waves. To say that they are simply
>> particles (or simply waves) is not completely true.
>
>> Unless, off course, you consider the fact that this dual nature is
> true
>> for all particles...  ;-)
>
> Ah I see. =) How does one properly view
> what-I-was-mostly-taught-was-particles to be waves?

That's what the equations tell you. For example, the wavelength of a
particle is smaller the more massive the particle is. 

> I tend to imagine waves as being always "in-motion"...and it makes it
> hard for me to imagine how all the things I see around me as solid
> constructs can act as waves.

The wavelength of a rock is so small it'd only be an issue under *very*
unusual conditions.

The wavelength of an atome is sometimes important. The wavelength of a
proton is very important. And the wavelength of an electron is almost
overwhelmingly important. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 00:43:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V.I. Parviainen)
Date: Thu Aug 15 23:43:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
In-Reply-To: <135.12f79829.2a8dca55@aol.com>
References: <135.12f79829.2a8dca55@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020816064215.GA2226@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Thu, Aug 15, 2002 at 11:24:05PM -0400, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> >Well, and the fact that the _player_ doesn't face real repercussions
> >when his _character_ is shot at.  Much as in a FPS players charge into
> >gunfire, knowing that they probably won't die, so too do players in
> >RPGs act much more brashly than they would in real life.
> 
> I've always felt that was one of the major attractions of roleplaying games. 
> It's cathartic, theraputic, and stress reducing.

Also, some RPGs are designed with that in mind. :-)

http://iki.fi/marjola/neo/ 

(I think I have had a character survive a mission something like three times.
On about 20 missions, with about 20 varans... :-)

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 00:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Aug 15 23:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <172.d0dae41.2a8d729e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020815232353.009f4100@mindspring.com>

At 05:09 PM 8/15/02 -0400, you wrote:

>So, the Zhodies are free to attack at will, while the Imperials are afraid of
>precipitating "border disputes".  Sounds like a policy tailor-made in
>Zhodane.  Maybe it is.

Or a policy tailor made to stop the string of defeats at the hands of the 
Zhodani.

>No, I wouldn't lose my job and be stripped of all my titles.  I'd resign, and
>I'd say why.  Loudly.

Does the term "Exile World" mean anything to you?  The Imperium does not 
have a gurantee of freedom of speech.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 00:54:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Aug 15 23:54:50 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <2d.21aebda9.2a8da04e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020815232702.009f7280@mindspring.com>

At 08:24 PM 8/15/02 -0400, you wrote:
> >Remember MacArthur!
>
>Indeed, that is exactly who I was thinking of.  And if North Korea ever uses
>a nuclear weapon anywhere on us or South Korea there will be a lot of
>recrimination regarding his dismissal for insubordination.

It's been 49 years.  The Korean War would have ended in 1951 had Mac 
listened to his orders and stopped short of the Yalu.  But no, Dugout Doug 
had to threaten Mao and provoke a massive attack.  After the Chinese came 
in, there was no hope of dismantling the DPRK.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 00:55:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Aug 15 23:55:39 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <c5.276f2f24.2a8da970@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020815232919.009f8020@mindspring.com>

At 09:03 PM 8/15/02 -0400, you wrote:

>  >Remember:  The military is under the control of the civilian power
>  >structure.
>
>In the Imperium?  With a rule of men, not laws?

Yep.  All those folks with titles like "Baron" and "Duchess", not to 
mention the guy wearing the Iridium Crown.  There are numerous examples of 
people reigning their commissions to take their position as a peer of the 
realm.

>  >What is to be gained by attacking the Consulate?  Nothing that
>  >I can see.  What would the war goals be?
>
>Disruption of _their_ supply lines, disruption of _their_ economic ability to
>wage war, destruction of _their_ repair facilities, frightening of _their_
>leaders and population, sitting on _their_ lines of retreat.  They attack, I
>attack.  They violate borders, I ignore theirs.

To what end?  What is your strategic goal?  Remember their center of power 
is much closer than yours.

>  >In the Marches?  For the Zhodani, keeping the Imperium off balance and
>  >afraid of the Zhodani.  The Imperium wants to maintain the status
>  >quo.  Both sides appear to be happy with the current balance of power.
>
>The Imperium is happy with being off-balance and afraid of the Zhodani?  I
>wouldn't be.  And I don't think the Zhodani are either.  They've been
>launching wars of aggression and capturing territory for 500 years -- why
>would they stop?

The border has been fairly stable since the end of the 2FW. (Source: The 
Spinward Marches Campaign).  the 3rd and 4th wars were barely worth 
speaking about.  The 5th was the first serious set of attacks in four 
centuries.  And they were dealt with.  What would be gained by attacking 
Zhodane directly?

>  >The Fifth Frontier War was a clear victory for the Imperium without taking
>  >any more real estate than Esalin.  Why?  It shattered the Sword Worlds, 
> and
>  >broke several Zhodani fleets.  The message was clear:  Attack at your own
>  >risk.  I think that we will now see a century of peace between the
>  >Consulate and the Imperium.
>
>(looking back ... hm)  I'm unfamiliar with the Fifth -- all I have is the
>original books.  But frankly, I don't see why it wasn't that way in the first
>place, unless the Imperium has only recently obtained technical superiority
>over the Zhodani.

The Imperium has always had a slight edge in technology.  But the first two 
wars saw Imperial colonies forced out of Zhodani space.  They showed that 
they could take advantage of their shorter lines of communication to bring 
local superiority when needed.  Ever since then, the Zhodani have been 
creating a buffer zone.  The Sword Worlds, the Federation of Arden, and the 
Vargr states all seal off the Zhodani from an Imperium they see as a vile 
and lawless place.

>

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 00:56:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Aug 15 23:56:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value
 targets)
In-Reply-To: <194.b959f41.2a8de414@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020815234532.009f9160@mindspring.com>

At 01:13 AM 8/16/02 -0400, you wrote:

>I hadn't thought I was looking for any motivation on their part.  They keep
>aggressively coming -- does the why matter?  And even if you knew the genuine
>why at any given time, how could you seek to come to terms with it except by
>defeating it?

Of course it matters!  If I come over and beat the crap out of you every 
week, which would be better?  Hoping you can beat me up, or finding out why 
i was doing this and getting me to stop.

My take on the motivations:

1st and 2nd War.  Removal of Imperial colonies from Consulate-claimed space.

3rd War. Destabilization of the Spinward Marches during a tense period.

4th War.  A mistake.  Border incidents flare out of control and set off 
trigger plans.

5th War.  Destabilize the Jewell and Regina subsectors.  Optimal outcome 
would be improvement of buffer zone along Jewell front.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 01:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 16 00:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Old RICE Papers for use as "Landgrabs"
Message-ID: <OF98381BAE.5F399F45-ONCA256C17.0027C7DA-CA256C17.00286BCC@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

For those interested in claiming worlds for the Landgrab, here is a list 
of worlds that have been documented as RICE Papers - that is, for TNE. 
Note that this means their earlier (1120) history has also been done. All 
of these have appeared on the TML, some as far back as 1995. They may - or 
may not - appear on the current Landgrab list.

Yes, I have them as Word documents, and I'm too lazy to scrub ".doc" off 
the filenames.

Spinward Marches sector

RICE Paper #SM-1005 - Ruby (Jewell - SM 1005).doc
RICE Paper #SM-1006 - Emerald (Jewell - SM 1006).doc
RICE Paper #SM-1106 - Jewell (Jewell - SM 1106).doc
RICE Paper #SM-1106a - The Jewell Cup (Jewell - Jewell - SM 1106).doc
RICE Paper #SM-1210 - Pequan (Jewell - SM 1210).doc
RICE Paper #SM-1520 - Tavonni (Vilis - SM 1520).doc
RICE Paper #SM-1537 - Mertactor (Plankwell - SM 1537).doc
RICE Paper #SM-1803 - Efate (Regina - SM 1803).doc
RICE Paper #SM-1803 - Menorb (Regina - SM 1803).doc
RICE Paper #SM-2228 - Persephone (Lunion - SM 2228).doc
RICE Paper #SM-2233 - Tirem (Glisten - SM 2233).doc
RICE Paper #SM-2324 - Capon (Lunion - SM 2324).doc
RICE Paper #SM-2715 - Porozlo (Rhylanor - SM 2715).doc
RICE Paper #SM-2716 - Rhylanor (Rhylanor - SM 2716).doc
RICE Paper #SM-2814 - Jae Tellona (Rhylanor - SM 2814).doc
RICE Paper #SM-2818 - Gerome (Rhylanor - SM 2818).doc
RICE Paper #SM-2828 - Hexos (Mora - SM 2828).doc
RICE Paper #SM-3107 - Lewis (Aramis - SM 3107).doc
RICE Paper #SM-3112 - Nutema (Rhylanor - SM 3112).doc
RICE Paper #SM-3233 - Dojodo (Mora - SM 3233).doc
World Discussion - Victoria (Lanth - SM).doc

Deneb sector

RICE Paper #DB-0917 - Kubishush (Inar - Deneb 0917).doc
RICE Paper #DB-0921 - Northammon (Vincennes - Deneb 0921).doc
RICE Paper #DB-1122 - Vincennes (Vincennes - Deneb 1122).doc
RICE Paper #DB-1128 - Dekha (Vincennes - Deneb 1128).doc
RICE Paper #DB-1406 - Borlund (Lamas - Deneb 1406).doc
RICE Paper #DB-1623 - HRD (Vincennes - Deneb 1623).doc
RICE Paper #DB-1808 - Antra (Antra - Deneb 1808).doc
RICE Paper #DB-1925 - Deneb (Usani - Deneb 1925).doc

I'm off for the weekend, but can be contaced either through the TML when 
I'm back on Manday, or better still via my home email (see below).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------



Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 01:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Fri Aug 16 00:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value  targets)
Message-ID: <02fc01c244f7$b6c57540$3dddd63f@customer>

Flykiller wrote:
<snip>
>I'd see them instead playing to their strength and leaving as many hidden
psi talents
> behind as possible to conduct guerilla warfare, espionage, spying, and
> undermining from within to prepare for the return of Zhodani rule if they
can
> achieve it.  Dealing with this would be a major Imperial commitment,
> occupying at least a generation, and would be a better buffer against
> Imperial advance than any scorched earth.

I think you've just given the best reason why the Imperium does not want
those Zhodani occupied worlds back. There may have been a time when the
Imperials wanted those worlds back, but that time has past.  The average
Imperial citizen treat Psi's with anything from mild distaste to outright
murderous rage.  Do you think the Imperium wants 100 of thousands to maybe
millions of Psi's to deal with?

John Scarlett
-------------------------------
History is a pack of lies about events that never happened told by people
who weren't there.
- George Santayana





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 02:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Brian Caball)
Date: Fri Aug 16 01:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day
In-Reply-To: <p04330102b9818aede040@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <p04330102b9818aede040@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <02081609265409.09764@avlendris>

On Thursday 15 August 2002 17:46, you wrote:
> >At 4:32 PM -0400 8/10/02, John T. Kwon wrote:
> >>The major clears his throat.  He knows Groth is working hard,
> >>but he's never gotten used to the idea of men growling and
> >>barking like dogs.
> >
> >Actually, it won't be "like dogs".  There will be some resemblance,
> >but the language needs to be more complex to carry info.  I probably
> >has the same similarity to barking that our speech has to a the
> >sounds a monkey can make (less if you think that the sonds a monkey
> >makes are more expressive).

I dunno... Vargr are uplifted *wolves*, and not dogs. Only wolf cubs Bark... 
grown-up wolves have outgrown this silly and puppyish habit. Wolves 
communicate with various whines, whuffs and whimpers, as well as scent, 
facial expression, and posture. And of course their famous howl. I would 
imagine that Vargr communication would be more like this than Barking. 
Perhaps vargr bark when excited. 

-Brian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 03:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Fri Aug 16 02:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
In-Reply-To: <OFAE287A02.39094288-ONCA256C16.0083C037-CA256C17.0013FE8D@centrelink.gov.au>
References: <OFAE287A02.39094288-ONCA256C16.0083C037-CA256C17.0013FE8D@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20020816111308.30916b1a.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:38:20 +1000
david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:

> Actually, my thought for the Family was the old Cadillac font. Y'know,
> the running-writing that all links along the bottom of the page as
> though there was a ruler there, constraining the writer. It was on
> those pink Cadillacs. I've been trying - fairly unsuccessfully - to
> find a good example, but try this:
>         http://www.car-nection.com/yann/Dbas_ima/56elscrp.JPG

Ditzie: "Where's the caddy?"

HE: "The what?"

Ditzie: "The car we used to have, the Spof-mobile?"

HE: "I traded it."

Ditzie: "You traded the Spof-mobile for THIS?"

HE: "No. For PMPG ammunition."

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 03:46:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Fri Aug 16 02:46:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day
In-Reply-To: <02081609265409.09764@avlendris>
References: <p04330102b9818aede040@[143.232.119.186]>
 <02081609265409.09764@avlendris>
Message-ID: <20020816111842.0da7a0ac.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 09:26:54 +0100
Brian Caball <boc@raidtec.ie> wrote:

> I dunno... Vargr are uplifted *wolves*, and not dogs. Only wolf cubs
> Bark... grown-up wolves have outgrown this silly and puppyish habit.
> Wolves communicate with various whines, whuffs and whimpers, as well
> as scent, facial expression, and posture. And of course their famous
> howl. I would imagine that Vargr communication would be more like this
> than Barking. Perhaps vargr bark when excited. 

In that case, barking would be the equivalent to jumping up and down and
saying "I want to, I want to, I want to."

And I agree with you there. I like the image of a Vargr sneaking up
behind some offworlder's back, putting a knife against his throat and
growling a broken "Move and die, Impie scum". That's not really possible
if they bark for normal communication, they'd probably tranfer that to
other languages as well... kind of like shouting short syllables at a
time.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 03:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Volker)
Date: Fri Aug 16 02:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] EABA & Traveller
In-Reply-To: <20020815.185102.-170149.0.Knightsky@juno.com>
References: <20020815.185102.-170149.0.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <11225687302.20020816185152@greimann.de>


Am 2002&#8221;N8&#338;&#381;16&#8220;, las ich folgendes:


>> that EABA is now available. More than that, I talked with Marc
>> Miller at  GenCon, and he is not averse to an EABA Traveller.
Sounds interesting...

> "I think it's time we blow this scene...
> Get everybody and their stuff together...
> Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"
Hehe, Cowboy Bebop, one must love that show...





-- 
*** Volker Greimann * volker@greimann.de ***
******  Long live Emperor Strephon!  *******


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 10:29:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 16 09:29:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Anti-mime test, ignore
Message-ID: <29.2bcea405.2a8e61cc@cs.com>

anti-mime test


--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/html
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 10:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Aug 16 09:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E16@USCHM203>

>Douglas Berry wrote:
>On the contrary.  Whitman showed an amazing level of preparation and >>site

>work.  He picked a location that gave him amazing sight lines,  made >>most

>of his shots count, and could have held off the police for some time.

Well, he WAS a Marine...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 10:38:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Fri Aug 16 09:38:40 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEMFCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFOELODFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

>From my experience in the 80' and early 90's I'd say definetely.  I was
fortunate to only have 4 other officers locally so it wasn't bank breaking.
In the RN it's normal (or at least prudent) to include a few crates of bear
and bottles to the Petty Officers mess at the same time   :)

One other huge expense for junior officers back then was full scale mess
dinners like Trafalgar Night.  As a lowly subbie I had the financial
misfortune to attend a Trafalgar dinner 2 months after promotion.  My mess
dress and Mess bill for that night was about 3 months pay in total.

> -----Original Message-----
> On Behalf Of Glenn M. Goffin
> Sent: 12 August 2002 08:11
>
> Do real navies have the custom of "wetting down" a new stripe so that it
> will stick?  I read a novel once in which a USN officer was promoted while
> serving on a ship, and he had to throw a drinking party for all
> of the other
> officers at a nice restaurant at their next port of call (which was in
> Spain, as I recall).  He had to take an advance on his next few
> paychecks to cover it.  In any event, this could be a fun piece to throw
into
> a Traveller game.  (And where do you think that Carousing skill comes
from, anyway?)

 Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the
shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser
gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to
die." Replicant Roy Batty (Rutger Haur) Blade Runner


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 10:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Aug 16 09:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <3D5C6D32.8010206@usisp.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029515927.4165.ajackson@ping>

richard honeycutt writes:

>     I have decided that because of overly simplified portions of the 
> uwp, tech level distribution is flawed.

That, at least, I agree with.
> Tech levels should follow population, not starport availability. You 
> have to have enough people to build technology to have it.
Not in a high trade Imperium.  You just have to be able to afford to import it,
which probably means you have _some_ industries producing high value goods.

In the real world, there's nothing equivalent to a traveller low-tech world;
no-one (other than hobbyists) builds TL 4 ships, for example.  What you have
are poor countries and rich countries.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 10:42:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Aug 16 09:42:04 2002
Subject: [TML] The Limits of Imperial Intervention
In-Reply-To: <200208160058.MWB01944@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029515120.1406.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:

> Maybe it would be a powerful psychological weapon if it was 
> well-known.  One of the proposals is a 24-satellite SBL 
> setup.  Near 100% coverage of the whole world at any time.  
> Such a weapon could also deny launch capability for 
> commercial purposes.

Well, until someone shoots it down.  Challenging for a third world nation, of
course, but it's significantly easier to build a weapon on the ground that will
shoot down a satellite than to build a weapon to put on a satellite to shoot
ground targets.  Satellites aren't exactly invulnerable to lasers either.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 10:42:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Aug 16 09:42:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockheads Unite!
In-Reply-To: <bd.257b327f.2a8ddd6a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029514951.6967.ajackson@ping>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
> 
> Actually, it looks doable for an A7 world. 

Oh, no question that it's _doable_.  Question is whether that's how you
envision the Imperium.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 10:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Aug 16 09:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
References: <2d.21aebda9.2a8da04e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D5D1DA4.40605@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>  >Remember MacArthur!
> 
> Indeed, that is exactly who I was thinking of.  And if North Korea ever uses 
> a nuclear weapon anywhere on us or South Korea there will be a lot of 
> recrimination regarding his dismissal for insubordination.

What!!?? From net-wackos and right-wing loonies, perhaps, but nothing 
serious.

MacArthur invading or using nukes on China *would* have most likely 
dragged Russia into the fray, precipitated WWIII, with lots of nukes 
being tossed around. At that point Russia only had 50-100 weapons, and 
we had some 500-1000 (source: 
<http://www.nrdc.org/nuclear/nudb/datab19.asp> ) BUT they had the 
advantage that we could not have recovered from being bombed as quickly 
as the still widely dispersed, secret and hidden soviet facilities.

They could make more...

Moreover MacArthur *was* guilty of insubordination. That *was* a 
court-martial offense. He got off *easy* by being allowed to resign.

WWIII in 1952 would have been bad.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 10:46:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Aug 16 09:46:52 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #935 - 24 msgs
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E11@USCHM203>

>Tod Glenn wrote:


>Curious.  I am 5'10" and was about average for an infantryman when I was in
>(1980s).  We have a few short fellows, a few big ones. A 5'6" male is
>usually short enough these days to attract comment, assuming he is less
tha=
>n
>about 40 years of age.

>According to the department of Health and Human Services, the Average
>American male is 5' 9.1" tall (The average female is 5' 3.7").  Doing some
>research, I find that the average US soldier was 5'7" --In the Spanish
>American war.  I suspect that the average soldier today is slightly above
>the national average.  About 5'10 for males.  I don't remember Marines
bein=
>g
>that much smaller than us Army pukes.

I'm 5'8". Barely. Which was about average, though perhaps I just didn't
"feel" shorter than anyone close to that height. It was by no means short,
whatever the national average. My Senior DI and one of our assistant DIs in
boot camp were my height. The other was 6'7"(he liked to say 5' 19") and was
basically a giant(green, but not very jolly).
My first Gunny was perhaps an inch taller than me. My 1st Sergeant was a
little shorter than me, and had been a tunnel rat in 'Nam. Not someone you
would ever mess with.
Even my company commander was a stocky guy about 5'9.
I can't quote statistics, but I can honestly only think of a handful of guys
in my company who were taller than 5'10. Perhaps 8 or 10 out of 60.
Perhaps guys like my giant DI throw the curve off. I'd still say 90% of the
guys I served with fell between 5'7 and 5'10 (I'll conced an inch on my
original statement).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 10:49:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug 16 09:49:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <c5.276f2f24.2a8da970@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D5D889C.12003.1B6A55@localhost>

On 15 Aug 2002 at 21:03, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> The Imperium is happy with being off-balance and afraid of the
> Zhodani?  I wouldn't be.  And I don't think the Zhodani are either. 
> They've been launching wars of aggression and capturing territory
> for 500 years -- why would they stop? 

Because the Zhodani don't actually want more territory. They just want 
the Imperium a comfortable distance away. The extra territory they 
picked up (and most of it was made independent rather than incorporated 
into the Consulate) was a means, not an end.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 10:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Aug 16 09:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E12@USCHM203>

Re: Height in the service

Height aside, my main point was that the average infantry squad, in both
build and fitness, will resemble a soccer team more than a football
team(that's American Football for those across the pond).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 10:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug 16 09:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #935 - 24 msgs
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E11@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <B9827C90.69FFE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/16/02 6:56 AM, Hurrel, Brian at brian.hurrel@eds.com wrote:

> I can't quote statistics, but I can honestly only think of a handful of g=
uys
> in my company who were taller than 5'10. Perhaps 8 or 10 out of 60.
> Perhaps guys like my giant DI throw the curve off. I'd still say 90% of t=
he
> guys I served with fell between 5'7 and 5'10 (I'll conced an inch on my
> original statement).

Maybe shorter men are drawn to the Marines (Small man complex?), or the
Marines prefers more compact personnel for easier storage <g>.

I just find it interesting that the average male soldier or Marine would be
smaller than the average adult US male.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 11:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri Aug 16 10:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F1675@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

LOL!
Jesse

> Ditzie: "Where's the caddy?"
> 
> HE: "The what?"
> 
> Ditzie: "The car we used to have, the Spof-mobile?"
> 
> HE: "I traded it."
> 
> Ditzie: "You traded the Spof-mobile for THIS?"
> 
> HE: "No. For PMPG ammunition."
> 
> * Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
> | jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
> | ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
> * http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 11:04:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug 16 10:04:04 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <a7.251d2f62.2a8db4d6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D5D8AAD.4507.237C6E@localhost>

On 15 Aug 2002 at 21:52, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> They retreated because they were losing (and badly -- Stalin had shot much of 
> his officer corps a few years before).  If the German command had planned 
> better, they _would_ have lost in spite of any amount of retreating.  And 
> there is no Russian Winter in space.

There is however the effect of extended supply lines and raiding on 
them - just as there was in Russia.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 11:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 16 10:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <50e6bd50ea8e.50ea8e50e6bd@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Damage169@cs.com
Date: Thursday, August 15, 2002 6:14 am
Subject: Re: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D

> In a message dated 8/14/02 10:13:44 PM Central Daylight Time, 
> lesbates@minn.net writes:
> 
> 
> > Got it.
> > 
> > "No Ditzie, you can't test your fusion powered engraver on poor 
> Mr. Grimes'
> > headstone."

Shouldn't that be "mayn't," rather than "can't"?
> 
> At least that means there's a body left.

If a pair of ash-filled smoking boots counts as a "body." ;-)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 11:11:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug 16 10:11:13 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <8d.1cb5daf1.2a8dbaf4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D5D8CA4.1408.2B2A6B@localhost>

On 15 Aug 2002 at 22:18, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>  >WWI was a war notable for the imbalance between attack and defense.  Due to 
> the
>  >mechanics of force concentration in Traveller, unless you posit _very_
>  >effective ground batteries (which one might; buried meson sites can be 
> pretty
>  >tough) the fact that in Traveller it's very hard to intercept an enemy fleet
>  >means that the balance tends to favor the offense.
> 
> Are there any official rules for ground batteries?  I've made up some of my 
> own, and they make sense to me, but I'd like to hear what else has been done.
> 
> I agree about the dominance of offense.  That's why I think a policy of 
> "defense" in this environment is bound to lose.

I don't think that offense is dominant unless the attacker is able to 
mobilise all their constuction under one command. This could well be 
why the Zhos do comparitively well - they have far more control over 
their total naval power than the Imperium does. Much of the the 
Imperium's military hardware is woned by its member worlds, and they 
would almost certainly build non-jump vessels in preference to jump-
ships that are less effective combatants and more easily 'mobilised' 
away from their homes by the Imperium.

Another point is that a 'defensive' policy need not rely on 'defence', 
but can instead use offensive tactics. In fact this is what the 
Imperium's strategy in the Fifth Frontier War was, though they did 
choose to fight the battle in their own territory which, as any Russian 
can tell you, is often not the brightest way of doing things.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 11:12:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Aug 16 10:12:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E17@USCHM203>

>Douglas Berry wrote:

>[re snipers]

>Not just that, but evaluate and choose the person who will be killed.  >You
have to be able to say "I will kill that Colonel first, then the radioman." 
>and do it.

Agreed. Snipers must have a much higher level of initiative, independence,
and confidence than the average infantryman. Not everyone, especially at
younger ages, lower rank, and comparitively little time in uniform, as many
snipers are, is comfortable with having the burden of such life and death
decision-making fall on them. A single shot can decide the outcome of a
battle.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 11:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Fri Aug 16 10:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day
In-Reply-To: <200208102032.MMN00082@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFGELMDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

KEYBOARD KILL, damn and blast it, sheesh I'm really in trouble now.  Gotta
clean this before, the MUCH better half gets back and wants to play.

Thanks :)

> -----Original Message-----
> On Behalf Of John T. Kwon
> Sent: 10 August 2002 21:33
>
> Groth has another long night as SDNCO.  Routine, and
> routinely boring.  After all, Imperial peacekeeping duty on
> Garda-Vilis has been going on for over 20 years....
>
> Still, he's trying to keep sharp, and learn new skills.  He's
> hoping to improve his language skill in Vargr.
>
> The corporal sitting next to him is engrossed in the latest
> military tri-D.  Groth goes into the battalion office -
> hopefully he can keep this private.
>
> Unbeknownst to Groth, the S3 is keeping a late night, and
> comes around to the office area.  Groth, engrossed in his
> woofing, doesn't notice the major looking at him.
>
> The major clears his throat.  He knows Groth is working hard,
> but he's never gotten used to the idea of men growling and
> barking like dogs.
>
> "Carry on, sergeant."

 Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the
shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser
gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to
die." Replicant Roy Batty (Rutger Haur) Blade Runner


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 11:18:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Fri Aug 16 10:18:50 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810093741.009f6d90@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFGELLDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

Nice to see this comment from a published author.  One reason I have always
loved traveller is the vastness of the game leaves room for your
imagination - you know the thing we all play RPG's for.  :)

> -----Original Message-----
On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
> Sent: 10 August 2002 17:54

- - - - big snip of good stuff - - - - - -

> Which is a healthy attitude.  After Ground Forces came out, i received a
> *scathing* email from a customer who quite literally told me he was going
> to complain to Steve Jackson and Marc Miller, through my book in the
> furnace, and demand that I never be hired to write another word for
> Traveller because I was a complete moron who obviously was out to
> ruin the
> entire game.  Why?
>
> Because I put the Marines into kilts as part of their full dress
> uniform.  One paragraph, in a sidebar.  I wrote the person back and asked
> if he like the rest of the book, and if so, why didn't he ignore
> it?  I put
> it in for a reason, but if it makes him that mad, simply take a black
> Sharpie and line through the offending phrase.  Simple.  He
> actually wrote
> back saying that since it was in the book it meant that he *had* to do
> it.  I gave him official aithor dispensation to not have Marines in
> kilts.  Put 'em in clown suits for all I care.
>
> Everything published, or written here, is subject to the
> interpetation and
> judgement of each player and referee.  Use what you want, change what you
> like, ignore that which annoys you.  This was part of the reason I
> suggested the Landgrab.. get involvement from people so we could
> see their
> views of this universe.  Nobody *has* to use them, but they make for some
> interesting data points.

The data points are great starting points for your imagination too.

Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the
shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser
gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to
die." Replicant Roy Batty (Rutger Haur) Blade Runner


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 11:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Aug 16 10:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day
In-Reply-To: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFGELMDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020816173457.29667.qmail@web20905.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Peter Scarrott
<peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> KEYBOARD KILL, damn and blast it, sheesh I'm really
> in trouble now.  Gotta
> clean this before, the MUCH better half gets back
> and wants to play.

You are in more trouble that that if your SO comes
home and wants to play and uses a keyboard to do it! 
Or is there a different use for a keyboard that I'm
missing?

;)


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 11:38:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Aug 16 10:38:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Motown Keyboard Kill
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E15@USCHM203>

> Nick Wright wrote :
>> Frankie (Munden) wrote:
>>
>> "I know Loren, Martin and John,    ...."
>>
>> Keyboard Kill, Sir.
>
> I have to admit that this kill was completely unintended.
> So unintended, in fact, that I still don't get it.
> Can you let me in on the joke, please?
>
> Frankie

>Ever hear of Abraham, Martin, and John - the song?

Unintended! Oh man, that's beautiful. That's got my vote for keyboard kill
of the month.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 11:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug 16 10:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
Message-ID: <200208161743.MXJ01425@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Peter Scarrott says
>Nice to see this comment from a published author.  One 
>reason I have always loved traveller is the vastness of the 
>game leaves room for your imagination - you know the thing 
>we all play RPG's for.  :)

I have Ground Forces and ACQ.  Haven't really started on 
Ground Forces, but I've already marked up ACQ...

And hey, I bought the books (which means an author get 
something, hopefully), and I get to play my way....
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 11:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug 16 10:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
In-Reply-To: <46.2c1dfc1f.2a8decd8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D5D8F2F.1705.351847@localhost>

On 16 Aug 2002 at 1:51, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> Would these Emperors perfer ceding yet more territory to facing
> risk?  What Emperor would issue a standing order consisting of,
> "They may strike us, but you may not strike them"?  This would be an
> aggressor Zhodani admiral's dream.  I would have doubts about such
> an Emperor. 

This sort of policy worked fairly well for the Romans, the Persians and 
the Chinese at various times in their history. Of course at other times 
it didn't - the trick is knowing when to apply these policies and when 
not to.

The Spinward MArches in the 1100s is actually fairly similar to the 
border between the Roman and Parthian empires in the mid-late peroid of 
the Roman Empire - satellite states, the odd border war, but nothing 
major because neither side is particularly expansionistic and there's 
no profit in having a large, expensive and destructive war. In the 
OTU's case I'm sure we can all imagine just how long the various Vargr 
states allied to each side would stay 'allied' to anyone, and just how 
bad the priacy, raiding and looting of both Zhodani and Imperial worlds 
in reach of Vargr shipping would get. Now who wants that to happen over 
a lousy little backwater subsector or two?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 11:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Aug 16 10:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #939 - 25 msgs
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E24@USCHM203>

Tod Glenn wrote:

>Maybe shorter men are drawn to the Marines (Small man complex?), or the
Marines prefers more >>>>compact personnel for easier storage <g>.

LOL. Only 1.5 dTons need be allotted for each ship's troop.

>I just find it interesting that the average male soldier or Marine would be
>smaller than the average adult US male.

Statistics might totally invalidate everything I've said about height, which
are really just subjective memories.
Then again, there might be something to it. Now I'm actually interested in
the statistics. And if Marine Infantry (who, believe it or not, actually
requested that branch for the most part when I was in) differ from other
MOSs within the Corps.

One other thing, and this may be "unofficial", though could go a long way in
explaining this trend. As I mentioned before, they really don't want very
tall guys as 0311s (riflemen). The bigger ones tend to end up in weapons and
mortar companies. I don't know if the Army does this as well.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 12:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug 16 11:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <20815.190814.3X0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20815.190814.3X0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <m3bs82zted.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
> 
> Lots of this violates "common sense", because common sense is based
> on our experience with the way things work at scales were quantum
> effects are mostly invisible.

Whenever I read or hear things like this, I'm tempted to bring up the
dying gasps of the Galenic/alchemical systems...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Opium is the religion of the atheist.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 12:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Aug 16 11:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Aramis ss. navy builds IMTU
Message-ID: <3D5D3D6F.982EE96A@mail.cswnet.com>

>> TL9 Junidy MCr 11550000 
>> Thats right friends! Junidy has 11.5 TC Squadrons.

>Kind of makes a mockery of the Patron in The Traveller Adventure that 
>says he can get you landed on the surfacwe without encountering >customs.

Boy, you said it man! Also makes me wonder what kind off Vargr force
could over run them, since they apparently did this in MT universe.

Hold off on the quadloos and wine. I've got a family medical problem to
take care of, and then my brain is going to have one of those multi page
MRI Centerfold fashion layouts, so its going to take some time out of
the schedule. Trust me, I am working on it.

>What interested me about the Lanth Navies was the Imperial Navy and 
>Scouts info as well as the individual planets. Particularly when most >of them came from Supp 7 or 9.

I'll be brutally honest here. I started this off to do the navies in
Regina and Lunion. Lanth came into the picture first because the budgets
were so paltry, it could be done quickly. I discovered this one night
during a thunderstorm, I couldn't get on the computer to play with HGS,
so I started messing around with sup 9. Since the ships were already
built and used by the IN, the only extras that needed to be worked on
were the colonials. Thats why they are HGS. I've got some of the TL15 IN
aramis fleet done; I want to add the Battleriders/Tender from Spinward
Marches Campaign, but I'll need to redo that with HGS. I've done a
pre-MT version of the Voroshilef as a straight TL13 Battleship; I am
going to use it for Efate, Lunion, and Strouden, but I could add a
batron of these to Aramis IN Fleet as a 'legacy' batron.

>I am intrigued by the Junidy ships that accomodate Llellewyloly and 
>wonder if, because of the political situation, the officers might all >be human with strong division between officers and ratings ala the 
>Gazelle's anti-mutiny provisions.

Phill, you may know more about the LLellewyloly than I do. I'm still
researching the subject. I'm thinking, because of the problems with
atmosphere, that Humans and LLellewyloly have to use different ships.
My thoughts are still unclear on this matter. 

This is a very preliminary whipped up version of the Junidy Fleet;
bear in mind that I may trash all this next week after some more
LLellewloly research:

300x BB9 Battleships [J1]
50x CV9 Very Light Fighter Carriers with 30 TL9 F-5 Imperial Tigers
each [1500 F-5 I tigers total] [J1]
400x LLeelluuloly TL9 System Monitors
500x LLeellyllee Assault Ships [J1]
860x Type A Free Traders [J1]
1001x Type R Submerchants [J1]
130x BB8 Battleships
450x Gornshima TL8 Battleships
50x Type T8 Patrolships
18x "Old Solomani Patrolships" aka UN PKF Patrolships

The Assault Ships, Traders and Submerchants easily transport and support
moving 5C-9 worth of marines/troops, I think. The system monitors and
the TL8 Battleships together total out to 980 ships, close to the 1K
worth of SDB's that Hyphens' Chart has listed. Throw in the TL8 patrol
ships and your there.

More coming as I get time to play.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 12:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Fri Aug 16 11:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Old RICE Papers for use as "Landgrabs"
In-Reply-To: <20020816171803.3291.22720.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020816171803.3291.22720.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <rgfqlucsm4bqjso9p8h0h82g17bdk48vf1@4ax.com>

On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:18:03 -0700, david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
wrote:

>Dear Folks -

>For those interested in claiming worlds for the Landgrab, here is a list 
>of worlds that have been documented as RICE Papers - that is, for TNE. 
>Note that this means their earlier (1120) history has also been done. All 
>of these have appeared on the TML, some as far back as 1995. They may - or 
>may not - appear on the current Landgrab list.

>Yes, I have them as Word documents, and I'm too lazy to scrub ".doc" off 
>the filenames.

If you can point me to a URI, and if the respective authors will give
permission, I'll snarf them, convert them to HTML, and post them to the
RICE Archives at Freelance Traveller.

Incidentally, the original idea for numbering the RICE Papers was going to
be two or three letters for the initials of the author, then five digits
representing the release date - two digits for the year (presumably after
1200) and three digits for the day of the year (so that a RICE Paper by
Ditzie Spofulam (perish the thought!) released on 005-1201 would carry a
number of DS-01005).  The RICE Paper with no subsequent letters would be
the 'core' Paper, giving an overview of the world in question; subsequent
papers on specific aspects of the world would receive a letter afterward
(DS-01005A), and if the topic could be broken down further, alternate
letters and numbers (e.g., DS-01005A1B2C3D4).  Numbers that do not conform
to this system were to be reserved for the use of the Trustees for papers
released for administrative/informational or other purpose (e.g., papers
not connected with specific planets would be released using nonstandard
numbering).

(How do I know this?  Who do you think invented the format in the first
place?)

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 12:13:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug 16 11:13:51 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
In-Reply-To: <200208161743.MXJ01425@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020816110507.009f69d0@mindspring.com>

At 01:43 PM 8/16/02 -0400, you wrote:
>I have Ground Forces and ACQ.  Haven't really started on
>Ground Forces, but I've already marked up ACQ...

Woo Hoo!

>And hey, I bought the books (which means an author get
>something, hopefully), and I get to play my way....

Nothing for ACQ except that deep thrill of someone reading your work and 
not forming a lynch mob.  For Ground Forces I get roughly 27 cents a copy.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 12:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Fri Aug 16 11:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style
In-Reply-To: <002501c2454a$61127050$1001a8c0@sauron>
Message-ID: <20020816181335.16153.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>

> I have sent the text of the article to Dan, but I
> don't seem to have
> seen the post to which Dan was replying.
> 
> If it was you, let me know so I can send the
> article.
> 
> Frankie
Ken Murphy was the person who wanted it also. 
Thanks for the article.

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 12:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug 16 11:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E17@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <B9829075.6A021%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/16/02 8:18 AM, Hurrel, Brian at brian.hurrel@eds.com wrote:

>=20
> Agreed. Snipers must have a much higher level of initiative, independence=
,
> and confidence than the average infantryman. Not everyone, especially at
> younger ages, lower rank, and comparitively little time in uniform, as ma=
ny
> snipers are, is comfortable with having the burden of such life and death
> decision-making fall on them. A single shot can decide the outcome of a
> battle.

Contrary to popular belief, the calculated killing of someone at long range
does not require the special mindset once believed.  In fact, studies seem
to indicate that the more remote the target, the easier (psychologically) t=
o
kill. What generally has the most 'psychological' cost is up close killing,
pr as Grossman puts it, killing at a sexual distance.  Killing someone at
touching distance with a knife, for example, probably requires a much more
'ruthless' mindset than shooting someone at 1000 meters.

That is not to say that snipers don't require a certain mindset, but as has
been mentioned here before, the ability to operate independently and a
profound patience, as well as good field craft are probably more important.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 12:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug 16 11:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #939 - 25 msgs
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E24@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <B98290E0.6A02A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/16/02 10:50 AM, Hurrel, Brian at brian.hurrel@eds.com wrote:

>=20
> One other thing, and this may be "unofficial", though could go a long way=
 in
> explaining this trend. As I mentioned before, they really don't want very
> tall guys as 0311s (riflemen). The bigger ones tend to end up in weapons =
and
> mortar companies. I don't know if the Army does this as well.

As I mentioned, we had a mix, but inevitably and large guys got stuck
carrying the M-60.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 12:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Aug 16 11:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Old RICE Papers for use as "Landgrabs"
Message-ID: <3D5D426D.3DFF4A62@mail.cswnet.com>

On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:18:03 -0700,
david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
wrote:

>Dear Folks -

>For those interested in claiming worlds for the Landgrab, here is a >list of worlds that have been documented as RICE Papers - that is, >for TNE. Note that this means their earlier (1120) history has also >been done. All of these have appeared on the TML, some as far back as >1995. They may - or may not - appear on the current Landgrab list.

Very usefull stuff for nearby systems in this also; I pulled some of the
Tavonni stuff for my Arba landgrab.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 12:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Aug 16 11:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Old RICE Papers for use as "Landgrabs"
Message-ID: <3D5D428D.D4891E8D@mail.cswnet.com>

On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:18:03 -0700,
david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
wrote:

>Dear Folks -

>For those interested in claiming worlds for the Landgrab, here is a >list of worlds that have been documented as RICE Papers - that is, >for TNE. Note that this means their earlier (1120) history has also >been done. All of these have appeared on the TML, some as far back as >1995. They may - or may not - appear on the current Landgrab list.

Very usefull stuff for nearby systems in this also; I pulled some of the
Tavonni stuff for my Arba landgrab.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 12:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 16 11:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
Message-ID: <7a.2b7ecb1b.2a8ea2b1@aol.com>

 What they want is to forestall the Imperials from deciding to expand and
 pushing into Zho space, until eventually it becomes a big fight for
 survival. These limited wars are fought on a tacit understanding that
 they're just border jobs, and... "you don't want this getting any bigger now
 do you?"

But it's the Zhodani who are the aggressor in each war, and it's the Zhodani 
who gain territory in each war.  The intimidation is not to prevent the 
Imperium from expanding into Zhodani space as much as it is to prevent the 
Imperium from resisting Zhodani expansion into Imperial space.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 12:48:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas R Glatz)
Date: Fri Aug 16 11:48:44 2002
Subject: [TML] The Limits of Imperial Intervention
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 15 Aug 2002 20:38:36 EDT."
 <200208160038.MWB00587@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020816184750.BDC3727941@mail.travellercentral.com>

> When the Tigress shows up, and the Imperium is wroth with a 
> particular personage, would it be suicide to step into plain 
> view?  Rather than use all of her mighty weaponry, and 
> wreaking massive damage on a city (or even the whole planet), 
> would it be possible for the Tigress to have a specialized 
> assassination laser?  

heh - Anyone who has annoyed the ArchDuke/Duke enough for that personage to dispach a Tigress (and supporting fleet) to express that annoyance had best know better than to emerge from a very *deep*, very *secure* bunker while said ships are in orbit.  Or to use any but the most secure commo system.  And had best be very nervous *after* the ships leave (unless they counted the number of marines very carefully as they mustered back onboard the ships).

On the other hand, this would be a really good 'coaxial' weapon in the chin turret of a Gazelle Close Escort.  :)  And who would notice a Gazelle making orbit?

'scuse me, my cell phone is ringing ...

douglas



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 12:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug 16 11:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
Message-ID: <20020816185204.95232.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>Loren wrote:
>> I've always felt that was one of the major attractions of 
>>roleplaying games. It's cathartic, theraputic, and stress reducing.

You replied:
>Absolutely!  In a recent PBeM game I was invited to join, it was 
>suggested I play a computer expert.  I do consulting in Real Life
>(tm). The last thing I want to do is role play it.
>
>The fun is being someone you're not, and sometimes, giving vent to 
>all those atavistic urges you've been storing up all week.

A fortiori for the referee.  Where else can I be a hard-nosed,
unsympathetic boss; four tough guys drinking from paper bags; a
distraught clerk freaking out over knowing too much; a drunken,
sobbing Vargr; an overbearing, tyrannical business owner whose
brother runs the local mafia; a pimp; a hooker; a drug addict; and a
college student protesting the status quo -- all in one night! 
That'll be tomorrow night, by the way.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 12:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 16 11:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <e.239639a3.2a8ea44e@aol.com>

 >>No, I wouldn't lose my job and be stripped of all my titles.  I'd resign, 
and
 >>I'd say why.  Loudly.
 >
 >Does the term "Exile World" mean anything to you?  The Imperium does not 
 >have a gurantee of freedom of speech.

Do you really think this threatens someone who is supposed to be brave enough 
to face factor S meson guns?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 12:57:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 16 11:57:51 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <1a8.6e10ff1.2a8ea4f7@aol.com>

 >> >Remember MacArthur!
 >>
 >>Indeed, that is exactly who I was thinking of.  And if North Korea ever 
uses
 >>a nuclear weapon anywhere on us or South Korea there will be a lot of
 >>recrimination regarding his dismissal for insubordination.
 >
 >It's been 49 years.  The Korean War would have ended in 1951 had Mac 
 >listened to his orders and stopped short of the Yalu.  But no, Dugout Doug 
 >had to threaten Mao and provoke a massive attack.  After the Chinese came 
 >in, there was no hope of dismantling the DPRK.

And with the Chinese openly threatening to nuke Los Angeles and openly 
preparing for war with us, I think that merely expands my statement regarding 
his dismissal.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 12:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug 16 11:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Victory in the Frontier Wars
Message-ID: <20020816185805.70578.qmail@web20422.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Flykiller@aol.com

>If the Imperium really is a rule of men and not ideas then it would
>vary from Emperor to Emperor -- but I would say that serious
>Emperors would attempt to make up for any laxity of predecessors.  

Strephon's biography notes that one of his first acts was to
strengthen the Spinward Marches border regions, to which is credited
the quick and mostly successful resolution of the Fourth Frontier War
in 1082.  

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 13:01:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 16 12:01:14 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <156.1290e8ab.2a8ea5ad@aol.com>

 >>  >What is to be gained by attacking the Consulate?  Nothing that
 >>  >I can see.  What would the war goals be?
 >>
 >>Disruption of _their_ supply lines, disruption of _their_ economic ability 
to
 >>wage war, destruction of _their_ repair facilities, frightening of _their_
 >>leaders and population, sitting on _their_ lines of retreat.  They attack, 
I
 >>attack.  They violate borders, I ignore theirs.
 >
 >To what end?  What is your strategic goal?  Remember their center of power 
 >is much closer than yours.

Near as I can figure, your position here is "Don't provoke the Zhodani" -- 
when they are the ones launching wars.  I just don't buy it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 13:12:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Aug 16 12:12:08 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <156.1290e8ab.2a8ea5ad@aol.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029525071.3403.ajackson@ping>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:

> Near as I can figure, your position here is "Don't provoke the Zhodani" -- 
> when they are the ones launching wars.  I just don't buy it.

Well, within the FFW game the reason for not provoking the Zhodani by attacking
behind the lines is because you hit this impenetrable border called 'the edge
of the map' ;)

The truth is, calling the Frontier Wars 'wars' is really pushing it; on the
scale of either side, they're small border skirmishes.  When was the last time
a Hi-pop world changed hands?  The main reason the Imperium doesn't launch
similar raids into nearby Consulate worlds is that historically they've never
really had the forces available to do so.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 13:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 16 12:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value   targets)
Message-ID: <9e.2b05b337.2a8ea9c5@aol.com>

 >>I hadn't thought I was looking for any motivation on their part.  They keep
 >>aggressively coming -- does the why matter?  And even if you knew the 
genuine
 >>why at any given time, how could you seek to come to terms with it except 
by
 >>defeating it?
 >
 >Of course it matters!  If I come over and beat the crap out of you every 
 >week, which would be better?  Hoping you can beat me up, or finding out why 
 >i was doing this and getting me to stop.
 >
 >My take on the motivations:
 >
 >1st and 2nd War.  Removal of Imperial colonies from Consulate-claimed space.

Well, canon makes clear that the areas in question were not 
"Consulate-claimed space", but intermingled colonies.  Further, in subsequent 
wars the Zhodani have moved to capture and claim worlds that originally had 
no Zhodani presence, and force the Imperium to release worlds that had been 
Imperial.  This is aggression, pure and simple, and it deserves a fitting 
answer.  As for your analogy of me being beat up, once again it's an 
encouragement to passivity -- "which is better?  Hoping you can beat me up?" 
-- as if there is no hope of such a result.

But there is.  Zhodane is technologically inferior to the Imperium.  I've 
looked over the maps at Traveller Central.  If they are canon or anything 
near it, then the Imperials heavily outweigh the Zhodani, to put it mildly.  
Yet the Zhodani are on a 500 year four war winning streak.  There's something 
wrong with this picture, and I think that this appeal to passivity is part of 
it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 13:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Aug 16 12:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
References: <1a8.6e10ff1.2a8ea4f7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D5D50B3.1050401@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> And with the Chinese openly threatening to nuke Los Angeles and openly 
> preparing for war with us, I think that merely expands my statement regarding 
> his dismissal.

So WWIII 50 years ago would have solved all our problems?? :-0

LOL!!

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 13:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Aug 16 12:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Victory in the Frontier Wars
References: <aa.1024aea9.2a8df11b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D5D5234.9020206@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
>  >>Personally, if I were in charge, and I were to look at this 500 year
>  >>history of retreat in the face of a technologically inferior
>  >>opponent, I'd have to ask "What are we doing wrong here?" and then
>  >>fix it.
>  >
>  >Suppose you were Strephon or even Styryx.  How important is the
>  >frontier to life at court?
> 
> Good question.  Impossible to say -- this is, after all, a game where the 
> referee sets his own world conditions.  If it's like the late degraded Roman 
> Empire, then yes, they may disregard it.  If it's like the British Empire on 
> which the sun never set, they would respond to it. 

Quick question: Which empire lasted longer? Why?

The British doctrine of responding in force to any and all provocation 
kept them spread out fighting a hundred little brush wars, garrisoning a 
hundred more hellholes all the time.

The Roman empire co-opted the locals into their empire, making *them* 
responsible for garrisoning their own territory.

During the *conquest* they had legions present, and if a rebllion or 
outside threat got serious enough, they'd send troops, but in the main, 
defense of the borders were left to the local governors.


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 13:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Aug 16 12:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Big Guys
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E28@USCHM203>

>Tod Glenn wrote:

>As I mentioned, we had a mix, but inevitably and large guys got stuck
>carrying the M-60.

Same with us. Possibly due to my height, they wanted to make me a rifleman,
and I had to argue, show them my enlistment contract, which explicitly was
for 0351(anti-tank, or Dragon Gunner), and my test scores before they
changed their mind.
One guy actually got an honorable discharge for breach of contract. He had
signed up for communications, and they wanted to stick him in the infantry.
I guess they figured they would bully him into just accepting it, but he
fought it. I assume some pissant REMF decided rather than just transfer him,
they'd get rid of him.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 13:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 16 12:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value  targets)
Message-ID: <dc.1b9f6dc1.2a8ead36@aol.com>

 >>I'd see them instead playing to their strength and leaving as many hidden
 >>psi talents
 >> behind as possible to conduct guerilla warfare, espionage, spying, and
 >> undermining from within to prepare for the return of Zhodani rule if they
 >>can
 >> achieve it.  Dealing with this would be a major Imperial commitment,
 >> occupying at least a generation, and would be a better buffer against
 >> Imperial advance than any scorched earth.
 >
 >I think you've just given the best reason why the Imperium does not want
 >those Zhodani occupied worlds back. There may have been a time when the
 >Imperials wanted those worlds back, but that time has past.  The average
 >Imperial citizen treat Psi's with anything from mild distaste to outright
 >murderous rage.  Do you think the Imperium wants 100 of thousands to maybe
 >millions of Psi's to deal with?

Most Zhodani are not psi.  And most psi's will not be willing to play any 
sort of guerrilla role -- the psi's left behind will not number in the 
hundreds of thousands, let alone millions, especially when there might be 
quite a few proles who are willing to point out psi-capable Zhodani in their 
midst.  A single generation of red zoning, psionic suppression, and 
counter-psi should be sufficient to reduce the psi population to levels 
typical of Imperial planets (The murderous rage you cite is localized -- some 
Imperial planets do have Psi Institutes, after all.)  These wars have been 
going on for 500 years -- a generation of psi suppression is well within this 
time scope.  It's doable -- for an Imperium that isn't afraid.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 13:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 16 12:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockheads Unite!
Message-ID: <f5.207aac43.2a8eae3f@aol.com>

 >> Actually, it looks doable for an A7 world. 
 >
 >Oh, no question that it's _doable_.  Question is whether that's how you
 >envision the Imperium.

Well, you can _envision_ anything you want.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 13:41:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 16 12:41:36 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <24.2a0d2d48.2a8eaf3c@aol.com>

 >> The Imperium is happy with being off-balance and afraid of the
 >> Zhodani?  I wouldn't be.  And I don't think the Zhodani are either. 
 >> They've been launching wars of aggression and capturing territory
 >> for 500 years -- why would they stop? 
 >
 >Because the Zhodani don't actually want more territory. They just want 
 >the Imperium a comfortable distance away.

The record doesn't support that.  Neither do the maps.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 14:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (markc@peak.org)
Date: Fri Aug 16 13:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
Message-ID: <29950-22002851620949759@M2W081.mail2web.com>

John Kwon <jtkwon@jtkgroup=2Ecom> writes:

> I have Ground Forces and ACQ=2E  Haven't really started on=20
> Ground Forces, but I've already marked up ACQ=2E=2E=2E

"Marked up" the book?!?  You heathen!  You *never* mark up
the original book=2E  You photocopy it and mark up the copy!

The original books should stored in poly bags that have been
flushed with dry nitrogen and vacuum sealed, and then stored
in total darkness at a temp=2E of 60 deg=2E F=2E and a relative
humidity of 70%=2E

What do you *mean*, you don't have a light-tight, climate-
controlled library?!?  Get on the stick, man!  Drop whatever
you're doing and call a contractor *NOW*!!

:^)  :^)  :^)  :^)

    - Mark C=2E


--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 14:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri Aug 16 13:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day
In-Reply-To: <02081609265409.09764@avlendris>
References: <p04330102b9818aede040@[143.232.119.186]>
 <02081609265409.09764@avlendris>
Message-ID: <p04330100b9831724a4d1@[198.123.22.171]>

At 9:26 AM +0100 8/16/02, Brian Caball wrote:
>On Thursday 15 August 2002 17:46, you wrote:
>>  >At 4:32 PM -0400 8/10/02, John T. Kwon wrote:
>>  >>The major clears his throat.  He knows Groth is working hard,
>>  >>but he's never gotten used to the idea of men growling and
>>  >>barking like dogs.
>>  >
>>  >Actually, it won't be "like dogs".  There will be some resemblance,
>>  >but the language needs to be more complex to carry info.  I probably
>>  >has the same similarity to barking that our speech has to a the
>>  >sounds a monkey can make (less if you think that the sonds a monkey
>>  >makes are more expressive).
>
>I dunno... Vargr are uplifted *wolves*, and not dogs. Only wolf cubs Bark...
>grown-up wolves have outgrown this silly and puppyish habit. Wolves
>communicate with various whines, whuffs and whimpers, as well as scent,
>facial expression, and posture. And of course their famous howl. I would
>imagine that Vargr communication would be more like this than Barking.
>Perhaps vargr bark when excited.

Of course the Vargr are somewhat evolved and, in the development of 
language, they would have, like humans, made use a fair number of the 
noises they can make, even if the wolves don't use them all.  OTOH, 
we certainly don't use all the sounds we can make (listen one of the 
"click languages").

According to what came our recently in nature, they also would have 
had to aquire the language gene (that we have the chimps don't have) 
thought evolution or genetic engineering by the ancients.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 15:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri Aug 16 14:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
In-Reply-To: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFGELLDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
References: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFGELLDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
Message-ID: <p04330101b983197a3167@[143.232.119.186]>

>  He
>  actually wrote
>  back saying that since it was in the book it meant that he *had* to do
>  it.

How silly.  We all know the only thing that GMs are required to do is 
follow what _I_ say...

(Though I must say enforcement in is has been lacking).

FNORD
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 15:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas R Glatz)
Date: Fri Aug 16 14:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 16 Aug 2002 15:32:06 EDT."
 <dc.1b9f6dc1.2a8ead36@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020816211748.C678E279CB@mail.travellercentral.com>

If I might add a thought or two ...

There is a political element that might well be considered here.  First, the 
Imperium has steadily expanded for the past millenium, and is now surrounded 
by Alien and independent Human societies on all it's borders.  While many of 
these governments maintain nominially friendly relations with the Imperium, 
you know they all have to be watching very carefully for any signs that the 
Imperium intends to resume it's growth by absorbing them one by one.  And if 
they are watching for it, no doubt they have discussed the possibility among 
themselves, perhaps even made plans should it appear that the Imperium intends 
to resume it's growth.

Therefore, for the Imperium to initiate hostilities, or even engage in 
provoking a response from the Zhodani consulate could cause (ahem) extremely 
negative reactions from it's other neighbors.  (I draw your attention to the, 
albeit limited, Vargr participation in the FFW.   Not that some Vargr 
particularly need any excuse to jump into a fight ...)

Additionally, Admirals who have been assigned to the Spinward Marches have had 
an ... unfortunate ... history of returning to Capital with said forces in 
tow.  This could very well explain the canonical absence of the 11.5 Junidy TC 
squadrons.  They exist, somewhere, as Imperial units (needs of the Imperium, 
and all that).  And were replaced with those Kinunir class cruisers (and their 
support squadrons, of course) that where so confidently proclaimed to be all 
the force needed to pacify the Marches.

So if you combine the external pressure on the Imperium to walk a non-violent 
(or at least, non-aggressive) path, combined with the political decisions to 
hamstring any ambitions an admiral in the Spins might have, you could very 
well end up with the balance of forces that where present for the FFW.

douglas



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 15:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri Aug 16 14:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
In-Reply-To: <20020816211748.C678E279CB@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020816211748.C678E279CB@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <p04330102b9832073d682@[143.232.119.186]>

While this is reasonably, there seems to be little or no coordination 
amongst the Imperiums neighbors (except maybe for the outworld 
confederation).  If the Solomani, Aslan, and Vargr were all to attack 
once....


At 1:12 PM -0700 8/16/02, Douglas R Glatz wrote:
>If I might add a thought or two ...
>
>There is a political element that might well be considered here.  First, the
>Imperium has steadily expanded for the past millenium, and is now surrounded
>by Alien and independent Human societies on all it's borders.  While many of
>these governments maintain nominially friendly relations with the Imperium,
>you know they all have to be watching very carefully for any signs that the
>Imperium intends to resume it's growth by absorbing them one by one.  And if
>they are watching for it, no doubt they have discussed the possibility among
>themselves, perhaps even made plans should it appear that the Imperium intends
>to resume it's growth.
>
>Therefore, for the Imperium to initiate hostilities, or even engage in
>provoking a response from the Zhodani consulate could cause (ahem) extremely
>negative reactions from it's other neighbors.  (I draw your attention to the,
>albeit limited, Vargr participation in the FFW.   Not that some Vargr
>particularly need any excuse to jump into a fight ...)
>
>Additionally, Admirals who have been assigned to the Spinward Marches have had
>an ... unfortunate ... history of returning to Capital with said forces in
>tow.  This could very well explain the canonical absence of the 11.5 Junidy TC
>squadrons.  They exist, somewhere, as Imperial units (needs of the Imperium,
>and all that).  And were replaced with those Kinunir class cruisers (and their
>support squadrons, of course) that where so confidently proclaimed to be all
>the force needed to pacify the Marches.
>
>So if you combine the external pressure on the Imperium to walk a non-violent
>(or at least, non-aggressive) path, combined with the political decisions to
>hamstring any ambitions an admiral in the Spins might have, you could very
>well end up with the balance of forces that where present for the FFW.
>
>douglas
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 15:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug 16 14:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <e.239639a3.2a8ea44e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020816141908.009efec0@mindspring.com>

At 02:54 PM 8/16/02 -0400, you wrote:
>  >>No, I wouldn't lose my job and be stripped of all my titles.  I'd resign,
>and
>  >>I'd say why.  Loudly.
>  >
>  >Does the term "Exile World" mean anything to you?  The Imperium does not
>  >have a gurantee of freedom of speech.
>
>Do you really think this threatens someone who is supposed to be brave enough
>to face factor S meson guns?

OK, you face losing everything you've spent your life working on.  We are 
taking about a thirty year career here.  And probably a nice title, a 
pension, and life time on the lecture circut, making money telling Tales to 
Curl Your Toes.

Trade that for a TL2 world where you will spend the rest of your life 
trying to doge the local fauna?  All for a quixoic attempt to start a war 
that nobody wants?  This assumes that they let you live.  People die in 
space.  Seems to me that some Archduke died at Capital when his gig blew up.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 15:52:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug 16 14:52:47 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <156.1290e8ab.2a8ea5ad@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020816142301.009ed3a0@mindspring.com>

At 02:59 PM 8/16/02 -0400, you wrote:

>  >To what end?  What is your strategic goal?  Remember their center of power
>  >is much closer than yours.
>
>Near as I can figure, your position here is "Don't provoke the Zhodani" --
>when they are the ones launching wars.  I just don't buy it.

Again:  What is your goal in this war?


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 15:53:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug 16 14:53:38 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <24.2a0d2d48.2a8eaf3c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020816142359.009ed130@mindspring.com>

At 03:40 PM 8/16/02 -0400, you wrote:
>  >> The Imperium is happy with being off-balance and afraid of the
>  >> Zhodani?  I wouldn't be.  And I don't think the Zhodani are either.
>  >> They've been launching wars of aggression and capturing territory
>  >> for 500 years -- why would they stop?
>  >
>  >Because the Zhodani don't actually want more territory. They just want
>  >the Imperium a comfortable distance away.
>
>The record doesn't support that.  Neither do the maps.

Which maps are you looking at?  The last major exchange of territory came 
at the end of the Second Frontier War..  in 620.  To put that in 
perspective, that is as distance from the current Imperial setting in the 
early 1100s as we are from the 17th century.  In between the 2nd and 3rd 
wars there is a break of  359 years.  Between the 3rd and 4th, 96 
years.  Between the 4th and 5th,  23 years.  The five wars together stretch 
out over a period of 521 years - almost half of the Imperium's life!

This is hardly the pattern of constant attack you mention.

The Zhodani expelled Imperial settlements from their territory.  Since then 
the wars have been small and limited in scope.  Looking at the maps in 
"Spinward Marches Campaign", one sees that there hasn't been a serious 
attack on the Imperium from 620 until the 5th War broke out in 
1107.  Little bits and pieces have been made neutral, but no massive 
landgrabs.  The Zhodani want a buffer.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 15:54:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug 16 14:54:27 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Victory in the Frontier Wars
In-Reply-To: <3D5D5234.9020206@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <aa.1024aea9.2a8df11b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020816143805.009fe250@mindspring.com>

At 12:27 PM 8/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
>During the *conquest* they had legions present, and if a rebllion or 
>outside threat got serious enough, they'd send troops, but in the main, 
>defense of the borders were left to the local governors.

Which is one of the things I had in mind when I wrote the Unified Armies of 
the Imperium bit.  The Navy and Marines are the Legion, while the Army is 
the local force defending hearth and home.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 15:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Aug 16 14:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
In-Reply-To: <p04330102b9832073d682@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029535009.444.ajackson@ping>

David P. Summers writes:
> While this is reasonably, there seems to be little or no coordination 
> amongst the Imperiums neighbors (except maybe for the outworld 
> confederation).  If the Solomani, Aslan, and Vargr were all to attack 
> once....

It would be a temporary mess on all the borders.  Since the portions of the
Imperium don't generally support one another during wars anyway, there's no
reason to assume the result would be any more serious than any other wars.

This is, also, the reason it really doesn't matter that the Imperium outweighs
the Zhodani.  The wars have never been Imperium vs Zhodani, they've been Deneb
vs some fraction of the Zhodani.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 16:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas R Glatz)
Date: Fri Aug 16 15:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:35:56 PDT."
 <p04330102b9832073d682@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <200208162213.g7GMDYE13854@catenary.cesa.opbu.xerox.com>

While there is nothing specific about agreements between the neighbors (and 
considering how little is actually released about the high level politics, I 
wouldn't expect to find anything), there is some canonical evidence that shows 
that there is a military standoff on at least three of the Imperium's borders.

Referring to the MT/TNE timeline, when the rebellion kicks off, the Solomani, 
the Vargr and the Aslan all cross Imperial borders and take territory.  While 
there is no coordination in these actions, it is obvious that there *was* the 
military forces, and contingency plans, in place to take these actions in 
reaction to a change in the status quo.

Indeed, there may have been a fourth ... Isn't that a Hiver in the background 
of some of the Dulinor holopics?  ;)

douglas



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 17:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Fri Aug 16 16:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <F52sKj9cMXF1UVkCUVP00005065@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFIELLDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

To bring this On Topic I saved these messages to give to my players as alien
contact guides.  You guys are the same species as us, speak the same
language and belong to the same (general) society and yet the following
messages make no sense to me whatsoever.  I guess it's a sporting event of
some kind but which and what is completely unknown to me.

I'm sure that a serious sports enthusiast could post a message equally
mystifying about a British sport, imagine the problem trying to communicate
(possibly in a foreign language, poorly understood) with a sophont of
completely different species and environment.  Nightmarish is an under
statement.

> -----Original Message-----
On Behalf Of Larsen E. Whipsnade
> Sent: 10 August 2002 18:59
>
> From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>      Way OT, but as a hardcore Giants fan, I just gotta brag.
>
>      Last night, Barry Bonds hit his 600th career home run.  Next target:
> 661.
>
>
> Mr. Berry,
>
>      With the "Say Hey Kid" as your godfather, you BETTER hit 600 plus!
>      Now that the Olde Town Team is well into their patented
> summer swoon,
> following Mr. Bonds has given me great pleasure of late.  He hit
> one a few
> weeks ago that went so far there should have been a stewardess on it!
>      Oops, gotta go, Hillenbrand just hit a double and the Flops
> have jumped
> out ahead of the amazin' Twins (downsize THIS Selig!).  With Pedro on the
> mound, one run might be all the Flops need.  Since the All-Star break, it
> seems Martinez can throw a porkchop past a wolf.
>

 Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott (who is _only_ 612 messages out of date now)
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the
shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser
gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to
die." Replicant Roy Batty (Rutger Haur) Blade Runner


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 17:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Fri Aug 16 16:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value
 targets)
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1029535009.444.ajackson@ping>
References: <p04330102b9832073d682@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020816191826.024f0bc0@mail.buffnet.net>

Five hundred years of war?  That could only happen if the spinward marchers 
were settled for the 500 plus years.  You would think that a world or ten 
could be brought up to current tech levels in 500 years.  Sheesh!


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 17:10:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Fri Aug 16 16:10:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day
In-Reply-To: <20020816173457.29667.qmail@web20905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFIEMHDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

LOL, now that would be telling - but seriously at least she lets of steam by
blowing stuff up on the PC - and I get peace and quiet to make dinner :)

Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the
shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser
gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to
die." Replicant Roy Batty (Rutger Haur) Blade Runner

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Paul Walker
> Sent: 16 August 2002 18:35
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: RE: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day
>
>
> --- Peter Scarrott
> <peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> > KEYBOARD KILL, damn and blast it, sheesh I'm really
> > in trouble now.  Gotta
> > clean this before, the MUCH better half gets back
> > and wants to play.
>
> You are in more trouble that that if your SO comes
> home and wants to play and uses a keyboard to do it!
> Or is there a different use for a keyboard that I'm
> missing?
>
> ;)
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
> http://www.hotjobs.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 17:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas R Glatz)
Date: Fri Aug 16 16:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Victory in the Frontier Wars
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:39:16 PDT."
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020816143805.009fe250@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020816232249.361C927A05@mail.travellercentral.com>

Doug - you must have written that when I was not paying attention to the list. 
 Was it a post, or published?  Where can I find a copy?

douglas

> Which is one of the things I had in mind when I wrote the Unified Armies of 
> the Imperium bit.  The Navy and Marines are the Legion, while the Army is 
> the local force defending hearth and home.
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
> 
> "Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
> sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 17:23:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas R Glatz)
Date: Fri Aug 16 16:23:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:56:49 PDT."
 <ML-2.3.1029535009.444.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020816232249.B284027A08@mail.travellercentral.com>

> David P. Summers writes:
> > While this is reasonably, there seems to be little or no coordination 
> > amongst the Imperiums neighbors (except maybe for the outworld 
> > confederation).  If the Solomani, Aslan, and Vargr were all to attack 
> > once....
> 
> It would be a temporary mess on all the borders.  Since the portions of the
> Imperium don't generally support one another during wars anyway, there's no
> reason to assume the result would be any more serious than any other wars.
> 

I was under the impression that the Imperium *does* shift forces in response 
to attacks - and that it specifically *didn't* happen in the FFW because it 
was over before the news had reached Capital and the reaction flowed back.

Indeed, I was under the impression that is how at least one of the Emperor's 
of the Flag had amassed enough of a fleet to overcome the Capital fleet.

douglas




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 17:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Aug 16 16:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
In-Reply-To: <20020816232249.B284027A08@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029540496.4803.ajackson@ping>

Douglas R Glatz writes:

> I was under the impression that the Imperium *does* shift forces in
> response  to attacks - and that it specifically *didn't* happen in the FFW
> because it  was over before the news had reached Capital and the reaction
> flowed back. 

Maybe, but there's not much canon evidence of it happening.
> 
> Indeed, I was under the impression that is how at least one of the
> Emperor's  of the Flag had amassed enough of a fleet to overcome the
> Capital fleet. 

Well, in the case of Arbellata she stole fleets as she passed through, but that
doesn't mean it was SOP.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 17:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Aug 16 16:34:02 2002
Subject: While we're talking about games was [TML] Vilani Chess
In-Reply-To: <98.2a82c54f.2a8daeca@aol.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEHIINAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

here is a game I came up with as a traditional Vilani board game

"the trouble with the Terran wars was we were playing Thashirudri and
they were playing Chinese checkers"
Governor Tiklomistire

Thashirudri

The board (all adjacent points are connected)

               *   Y  G  R
              * *
             * * *                  White Home
        * * * * * * * *         __________
         * *       * *
        * * *     * * *             Field
         * *       * *           ___________
        * * * * * * * *               Black Home
             * * *
              * *
      R G Y    *
the home is the 8 points at each end of the field and the six points that
lie behind them
the field is everything lying between them.

The Pieces

One side has a black bases and the other has white disk shaped bases

3  Citizen     Bare Base
3  Workers     Green Sphere
3  Merchants   Gold or yellow Sphere
2  Corporation Red Cube

2 Jump rings   ring

Set up
(looks long there are only a few pieces placed each time)

W place Two citizens on home side
B Place Two citizens on home side
B Break one connection in W Home (between two adjacent points)
W break one connection in B home
W Set up Workers in home side
B Set up Workers in home side
B  break two connections on field
W Break two connections on field
W Set up Merchants on home Side
B Set up Merchant on home side
B break one connection in own home
W break one connection in own home
W Set up Corporation in home side
B Set up corporation on home side
B  Declare Citizen by placing remaining citizen piece on a color square on
your side
    the two pieces on board become that color piece for the game
W Same

Objective
Get three pieces on other players home AND have five piece untaken
or
reduce your opponent to three pieces

Moves

Workers  as long as desired along a horizontal line or one point along a
diagonal line; movement stops at
a broken line or a piece that can block or if they enter to point occupied
by a piece they can take.

Merchant as long as desired along a diagonal line or one point along a
horizontal line;  movement stops at
a broken line or a piece that can block or if they enter to point occupied
by a piece they can take.

Corporation can move one or two points along a horizontal or diagonal line
unless stopped by a broken line
or if they enter to point occupied by a piece they can take.

Only one piece can occupy a point at a time
Capture and Blocking

Workers take merchants by entering the point the merchant occupies

merchants take workers

Corporations take everyone

workers block workers entering the square they occupy

merchants block merchants entering the square they occupy

corporations block workers and merchants entering the square they occupy

a piece that runs into a piece that blocks it is backed up one point along
the track it cam along

a piece that blocks is frozen for one turn, it can not move which is
signified by a jump ring, a piece that is frozen
blocks any piece from moving through the space it occupies they reflected
back like a blocked piece.  A piece that is frozen counts as alive for
victory.






From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 17:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug 16 16:39:02 2002
Subject: While we're talking about games was [TML] Vilani Chess
Message-ID: <200208162338.MXV00612@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

John-Martin says
<snip a game>

Well, I think we want a man's game...

Does anyone have the rules for Fizzbin?
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 17:39:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug 16 16:39:46 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <20020816233848.47253.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Peter Scarrott" <peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

>To bring this On Topic I saved these messages to give to my players 
>as alien contact guides.  You guys are the same species as us, speak
>the same language and belong to the same (general) society and yet
>the following messages make no sense to me whatsoever.  

they don't make no sense t'me neither and I live on the same
continent as one, same region as the other

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
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HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 17:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Aug 16 16:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
In-Reply-To: <20020816232249.B284027A08@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEHJINAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Every time I see this title I get the image of "Victory at Space"  
with original score by John Williams

jml

"Meanwhile the beleaguered defenders of Mora were buoyed by ...."

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TML@travellercentral.com
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 17:48:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug 16 16:48:45 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <20020816012403.39344.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020816012403.39344.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020817094748.A29834@freeman.little-possums.net>

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> This appears to be very bad GMing.

That was my opinion, too.


>  Before the referee can put time pressure on the players, he or she
> has to set up the context enough for them to act.

That might be the main problem then.  However, it doesn't help much.
How does the GM convey sufficient information in a few seconds?  If
they take the time to convey sufficient information beforehand, how do
they avoid me anticipating the "tense" decision point (in real-time,
that is) and beating them to the punch?


> Well it could be either or a little of both.  How does your play
> compare with other players in the same situation in the same game?

I'm usually less willing to argue strenuously for my assumptions.


> Your point is well taken, but it sounds like you've backed off of
> your position that you don't make decisions quickly. If you play
> volleyball well, as you indicated, you make decisions very quickly.

Completely different circumstances.  It would be more accurate to say
that I am very slow in making decisions where I feel I should be able
to obtain more information.  Combine that with the fact that I
*always* feel information-starved in roleplaying sessions (not just in
action sequences), and it's not a pretty picture when you put time
limits on top.  Combine it with character death as a result of any
misstep and it gets downright ugly.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 18:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Aug 16 17:09:02 2002
Subject: While we're talking about games was [TML] Vilani Chess
In-Reply-To: <200208162338.MXV00612@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHGEHLINAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

John Kwon wrote:

John-Martin says
<snip a game>

Well, I think we want a man's game...

Does anyone have the rules for Fizzbin?
________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Sorry you don't like it,  I was trying to come up with something 
that wasn't a variant chess and thought people might be interested 
in seeing it.

jml
fizzbin rules

http://interoz.com/madhatters/legionwest/fizzbin.htm

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 18:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Scott Ayres)
Date: Fri Aug 16 17:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] FFW Question
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHGEHLINAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <20020817001815.17587.qmail@web20804.mail.yahoo.com>

In "The Spinward Marches Campaign" timeline there's an
entry that says: "Imperium begins evacuation of
Regina...".

What does this mean?  Who's leaving?  And with what?

Did the Zho's ever actually attack Regina (in canon)?

__________________________________________________
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HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 18:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Fri Aug 16 17:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815220707.02a10e68@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <000001c24584$6bb5c770$6501a8c0@Darla>

> 
> As a wise programmer once told me when I was sweating over some
assembly
> code that was supposed make a NIC work,
> "Don't think of it as a career. Think of it as a paycheck."
> 

Realizing that you have a job vice a career is *very* liberating, and
gives you a degree of autonomy in dealing with line management...:)

Tom Barnes


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 18:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Fri Aug 16 17:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <20020816171803.3291.22720.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentra
 l.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020816172409.00b30648@mailhost.efn.org>

>Because the Zhodani don't actually want more territory. They just want
>the Imperium a comfortable distance away. The extra territory they
>picked up (and most of it was made independent rather than incorporated
>into the Consulate) was a means, not an end.

Which is another thing that dates Traveller to the Cold War, as this was 
also one of Russia's reasons for establishing the Warsaw Pact:  to serve as 
a buffer between them and the next (inevitable?) conquering European 
dictator in the mold of Napoleon and Hitler.  Given those precedents, I 
can't say as I really blame them.  If Mexico or Canada invaded us every 
couple of generations, I imagine we'd do some pre-emptive annexing too.

(Of course, it's not like Russia really needs outside help to kill millions 
of its own citizens...)


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 18:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Aug 16 17:54:02 2002
Subject: While we're talking about games was [TML] Vilani Chess
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHGEHLINAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <20020817005330.89945.qmail@web20901.mail.yahoo.com>

--- John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net> wrote:
> 
> Sorry you don't like it,  I was trying to come up
> with something 
> that wasn't a variant chess and thought people might
> be interested 
> in seeing it.

I liked it.  I'm looking forward to trying it. 
Unfortunately I don't have many people to play board
games with either.

Paul

__________________________________________________
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HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 20:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri Aug 16 19:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value  targets)
References: <20020816232302.6238.63480.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D5DAFFD.DB2B67D8@ameritech.net>

> From: Flykiller@aol.com
> Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 15:32:06 EDT

> Most Zhodani are not psi. 

True.

> And most psi's will not be willing to play any sort of guerrilla role 

This however does not necesarily follow. I should think that the well
adjusted intendant would be very likely to remain behind to continue to
help the proles. If not out of altruism or patriotism then out of
compulsion. The Tvarchedl aren't just for the peons you know.

> -- the psi's left behind will not number in the hundreds of thousands,
> let alone millions, especially when there might be quite a few proles > who are willing to point out psi-capable Zhodani in their midst. 

Considering Zhodani methods there is absolutely no reason to suspect any
tendency amongst the proles to turn quisling. No prole will harbor
anti-psionic feelings for long in the Consulate even if they somehow
managed to develop any anti-psionic feelings in the first place.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 20:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Aug 16 19:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816222025.01657f40@192.168.0.1>

At 11:13 AM 8/16/2002 +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
>On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:38:20 +1000
>david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
> > Actually, my thought for the Family was the old Cadillac font. Y'know,
> > the running-writing that all links along the bottom of the page as
> > though there was a ruler there, constraining the writer. It was on
> > those pink Cadillacs. I've been trying - fairly unsuccessfully - to
> > find a good example, but try this:
> >         http://www.car-nection.com/yann/Dbas_ima/56elscrp.JPG
>
>Ditzie: "Where's the caddy?"
>
>HE: "The what?"
>
>Ditzie: "The car we used to have, the Spof-mobile?"
>
>HE: "I traded it."
>
>Ditzie: "You traded the Spof-mobile for THIS?"
>
>HE: "No. For PMPG ammunition."

The thought of Ditzie being released from jail brings to mind a smoking 
pile of rubble that used to be a jail with her walking away...
Whoops Movie segway...Blues Brothers to Dusk to Dawn, the two brothers 
walking away from the store talking as it blows up behind them.


----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/   "He couldn't seem to stop with
the double entendres. They rose to his lips like drool from the
id." -- Deep Eddy, Bruce Sterling
----------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 20:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Aug 16 19:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816222025.01657f40@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEIBINAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

>Ditzie: "Where's the caddy?"
>
>HE: "The what?"
>
>Ditzie: "The car we used to have, the Spof-mobile?"
>
>HE: "I traded it."
>
>Ditzie: "You traded the Spof-mobile for THIS?"
>
>HE: "No. For PMPG ammunition."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

He:  Quick Ditzie, to the Spof-cave.  When we are
needed, the Commissioner will contact us using the 
Spof-signal.

jml
tune in next week when we hear Ditzie say:
Now kids don't try this at home without lots of 
of insurance ... real tolerant neighbors help too

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 20:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Aug 16 19:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Land Grab Webring...
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816224908.025bbec0@mail.charter.net>

Ok....I've set it up...details to follow...

Any suggestions for ring graphics besides the TML Landgrab graphic?


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 20:51:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Aug 16 19:51:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <ML-2.3.1029515927.4165.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3D5DB9A8.C279CE28@mindspring.com>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 

> 
> In the real world, there's nothing equivalent to a traveller low-tech world;
> no-one (other than hobbyists) builds TL 4 ships, for example.  What you have
> are poor countries and rich countries.

And in the poor countries they build TL ~1 to 3 boats. And farm using TL
~1 to 3 methods. I've seen the boats built and used in several
countries, of course those with money import. The farming, check out a
show on the Discovery channel called "Stick fighting and Plate lips". A
documentary on an african tribe, Sudanese IIRC, really quite
enlightening for the average TL ~7 or 8 American who never left the
states. My wife was amazed at the diet of blood in particular. The stick
fighting was also very cool. The plate lips IMO were ghastly. 
YMMV ;)


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Bigot: One who is obstinately and zealously attached to an opinion
that you do not entertain.
                  -Ambrose Bierce

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 21:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Aug 16 20:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Landgrab Webring URL
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816225841.00cee348@mail.charter.net>

http://www.urbin.net/EWW/RPG/TRAV/LGWR/

Share and enjoy....

----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Government does not cause affluence. Citizens of totalitarian
countries have plenty of government and nothing of anything
else." -- P. J. O'Rourke, EAT THE RICH
----------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 21:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 16 20:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
Message-ID: <106.16bb8523.2a8f1882@aol.com>

 >The Spinward MArches in the 1100s is actually fairly similar to the 
 >border between the Roman and Parthian empires in the mid-late peroid of 
 >the Roman Empire - satellite states, the odd border war, but nothing 
 >major because neither side is particularly expansionistic and there's 
 >no profit in having a large, expensive and destructive war. In the 
 >OTU's case I'm sure we can all imagine just how long the various Vargr 
 >states allied to each side would stay 'allied' to anyone, and just how 
 >bad the priacy, raiding and looting of both Zhodani and Imperial worlds 
 >in reach of Vargr shipping would get. Now who wants that to happen over 
 >a lousy little backwater subsector or two?

I completely agree.  The problem is that the Zhodani don't.  They have been 
expansionist for 500 years.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 21:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 16 20:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: OTU is out of wack.
Message-ID: <15d.12a5e9bb.2a8f1a1c@aol.com>

>Nice to see this comment from a published author.  

It expresses a sentiment held by Marc Miller, Frank Chadwick, and myself. 

LKW




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 21:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug 16 20:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] FFW Question
In-Reply-To: <20020817001815.17587.qmail@web20804.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHGEHLINAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020816200812.009ffec0@mindspring.com>

At 05:18 PM 8/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
>In "The Spinward Marches Campaign" timeline there's an
>entry that says: "Imperium begins evacuation of
>Regina...".
>
>What does this mean?  Who's leaving?  And with what?

I'd say vital personnel and records.  Ducal household, and as many VIPs as 
they can shove into the transports.

>Did the Zho's ever actually attack Regina (in canon)?

Depends on your canon.  CT canon is unclear.  In Ground Forces it is stated 
clearly that there is a landing.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.
gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Author of GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces
Geek Code: tc tm tn- t4-- tg++$ ru ge+ 3i+@ c+
            jt- au pi he+ as+ so-                           



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 21:19:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug 16 20:19:55 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <20020816233848.47253.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020816201133.009e25d0@mindspring.com>

At 04:38 PM 8/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >From: "Peter Scarrott" <peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
>
> >To bring this On Topic I saved these messages to give to my players
> >as alien contact guides.  You guys are the same species as us, speak
> >the same language and belong to the same (general) society and yet
> >the following messages make no sense to me whatsoever.
>
>they don't make no sense t'me neither and I live on the same
>continent as one, same region as the other

You're kidding me.  You managed to miss the 600 hysteria!?


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 21:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug 16 20:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Victory in the Frontier Wars
In-Reply-To: <20020816232249.361C927A05@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <Your message of "Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:39:16 PDT." <5.1.0.14.2.20020816143805.009fe250@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020816201234.009e1220@mindspring.com>

At 03:23 PM 8/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Doug - you must have written that when I was not paying attention to the 
>list.
>  Was it a post, or published?  Where can I find a copy?

It is in GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces.  Found in better gaming shops 
everywhere.

Essentially, each subsector has its own army.  Funded by the Imperium, and 
using Imperial standard ranks and organization, but under local control 
most of the time.  This allows more flexibility in defense.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 21:31:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug 16 20:31:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value
 targets)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020816191826.024f0bc0@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <ML-2.3.1029535009.444.ajackson@ping>
 <p04330102b9832073d682@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020816202113.009e6c30@mindspring.com>

At 07:19 PM 8/16/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Five hundred years of war?  That could only happen if the spinward 
>marchers were settled for the 500 plus years.  You would think that a 
>world or ten could be brought up to current tech levels in 500 years.  Sheesh!

Heavy settlement started c. 200.  That's 900 years of constant settlement.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 21:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 16 20:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <f8.201149a1.2a8f1e61@aol.com>

 >> Near as I can figure, your position here is "Don't provoke the Zhodani" 
-- 
 >> when they are the ones launching wars.  I just don't buy it.
 >
 >Well, within the FFW game the reason for not provoking the Zhodani by 
attacking
 >behind the lines is because you hit this impenetrable border called 'the 
edge
 >of the map'

Now that, I buy.

It's easy to forget that Traveller is an RPG about traders and mercs, not 
trade and 
war.

 >The main reason the Imperium doesn't launch
 >similar raids into nearby Consulate worlds is that historically they've 
never
 >really had the forces available to do so.

Well I'd like to know why.  I sat down and built the best ships I could from 
an AE world, and then the best I could from an AF world.  It takes 3 AE 
world's fleets to seriously challenge and AF world's fleet in a stand-up 
battle, and even then the AF world still wins.  The Imperium may have other 
obligations elsewhere, but I would think the Zhodani do to, and when I look 
at the number of AF worlds in the Imperium I have to wonder just what is 
going on that the Zhodani are able to concentrate such forces in Cronor while 
the Imperium in effect sits on its hands.  If a fleet were constructed from 
just six AF worlds (a small portion of what the Imperium has available to it 
even just in Vland, an inboard sector with no borders needing defense) and 
that fleet was parked in orbit above Cronor then the Zhodani would have to 
muster the resources of at least two entire sectors, and probably three, just 
to challenge it.  And that's not even counting what the Spinward Marches 
themselves could contribute.

But, again, it's just an RPG.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 21:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug 16 20:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <20020816233848.47253.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020816233848.47253.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <m33ctegndc.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@yahoo.com> writes:
> 
> they don't make no sense t'me neither and I live on the same
> continent as one, same region as the other

I understood it, but I don't understand it, if you follow me.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
There's only so many cookies one can pull out of a floppy drive before
losing faith in mankind.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 22:07:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Asbury)
Date: Fri Aug 16 21:07:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Crazy is as crazy does
References: <20020816190008.2611.6921.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001401c245a3$f5a03be0$7a70893e@oemcomputer>

>=20
> Agreed. Snipers must have a much higher level of initiative, independence,
and confidence than the average infantryman. Not everyone, especially at
>> younger ages, lower rank, and comparitively little time in uniform, as
many
>> snipers are, is comfortable with having the burden of such life and death
>> decision-making fall on them. A single shot can decide the outcome of a
>> battle.
>
>Contrary to popular belief, the calculated killing of someone at long range
>does not require the special mindset once believed.  In fact, studies seem
>to indicate that the more remote the target, the easier (psychologically)
to
>kill. What generally has the most 'psychological' cost is up close killing,
>pr as Grossman puts it, killing at a sexual distance.  Killing someone at
>touching distance with a knife, for example, probably requires a much more
>'ruthless' mindset than shooting someone at 1000 meters.

Sounds like the Hivers, long distance kills, but nothing close (get our dumb
Lizard friends to do that.....they enjoy it)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 22:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 16 21:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
Message-ID: <19d.71c6b86.2a8f276b@aol.com>

 >There is a political element that might well be considered here.  First, 
the 
 >Imperium has steadily expanded for the past millenium,

Were there any who didn't?  I suppose the Vargr and the Aslans consider 
themselves to be content with _their_ borders -- not to mention the Zhodani 
themselves, who have been absorbing Imperial worlds for 500 years now.

 >So if you combine the external pressure on the Imperium to walk a 
non-violent 
 >(or at least, non-aggressive) path,

"The enemy is always peaceloving.  He would prefer to take our territory 
unopposed."  Clauswitz.  But I would oppose them.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 22:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Aug 16 21:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <m33ctegndc.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020817041418.74310.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@yahoo.com> writes:
> > 
> > they don't make no sense t'me neither and I live
> on the same
> > continent as one, same region as the other
> 
> I understood it, but I don't understand it, if you
> follow me.

Oh come on guys.  The man has done something that only
three other men have done in the history of the game. 
I mean, there have only been 3 other guys in the past
100+ years that have done what this man has done.  And
he's not finished.  He is doing it with less "help"
and quicker than any of the others (at least the last
100).  Surely that doesn't escape notice and at least
a little awe and respect.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 22:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 16 21:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <53.1b1ff013.2a8f29b1@aol.com>

 >>  >>No, I wouldn't lose my job and be stripped of all my titles.  I'd 
resign,
 >>and
 >>  >>I'd say why.  Loudly.
 >>  >
 >>  >Does the term "Exile World" mean anything to you?  The Imperium does not
 >>  >have a gurantee of freedom of speech.
 >>
 >>Do you really think this threatens someone who is supposed to be brave 
enough
 >>to face factor S meson guns?
 >
 >OK, you face losing everything you've spent your life working on.  We are 
 >taking about a thirty year career here.  And probably a nice title, a 
 >pension, and life time on the lecture circut, making money telling Tales to 
 >Curl Your Toes.

Money?

If I'm a major admiral, then what I've spent my life working on is the 
defense of the realm, at the risk of being irradiated or vaccumed or lasered 
or nuked.  If the defense of the realm required me to stand up and speak out 
and lose money, that would be a piece of cake.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 22:25:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 16 21:25:04 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <16b.124568c1.2a8f29fe@aol.com>

 >All for a quixoic attempt to start a war 
 >that nobody wants?

As everyone will recall, it is the Zhodani that are already starting wars 
that nobody wants.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 22:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug 16 21:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lasers and sound
Message-ID: <200208170434.MYF00163@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Boeing has a little pdf file showing something called the 
Advanced Tactical Laser.  Apparently, it mounts on the 
Osprey, and is modular - it could be fitted to other aircraft 
or rotorcraft.  It is the same laser unit as the Airborne 
Laser intended for missile intercept, except that instead of 
the whole bank of power generators, it uses only one modular 
power generator.

This limits its power to 300 kilowatts continuous beam 
output, with a range between 12 and 20km as long as the craft 
operates below cloud level.

They seem to imply that the weapon is completely silent in 
operation and effect, and the ideal weapon for close air 
support.  The package was apparently demonstrated to SOCOM in 
1999.

But no sound -- 
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 22:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Fri Aug 16 21:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] 2d6 bell curve
Message-ID: <005301c245a8$b212e440$ca413b41@customer>

Some help please.  Does anyone have or know where I can find a bell curve
for 2 six sided dice.  Mind you I'm not that mathematically incline so it
would have to something simple.

Thanks in advance.
John Scarlett
----------------------------
A child educated only at school is an uneducated child.- George Santayana



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 23:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Fri Aug 16 22:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] 2d6 bell curve
References: <005301c245a8$b212e440$ca413b41@customer>
Message-ID: <3D5DDA45.4340BA82@pobox.com>

John,
There are 36 possible rolls with 2d6.  The chances to roll a specific number
are as follows:
Roll    Chances
2        1 in 36
3        2 in 36
4        3 in 36
5        4 in 36
6        5 in 36
7        6 in 36
8        5 in 36
9        4 in 36
10       3 in 36
11       2 in 36
12       1 in 36

To see what the chance of rolling less (or more) than a certain number, add
up the chances to roll all the numbers below (or above) that number.
e.g. to roll a 5 or less, you would have 10 chances in 36, that is the sum of
4 chances for a 5, plus 3 chances for a 4, plus 2 chances for a 3, plus one
chance for a 2.  Percentage-wise this is 10/36=.277777, or a 27.77% chance of
rolling 5 or less.

Simple enough?

WKH

John Scarlett wrote:

> Some help please.  Does anyone have or know where I can find a bell curve
> for 2 six sided dice.  Mind you I'm not that mathematically incline so it
> would have to something simple.
>
> Thanks in advance.
> John Scarlett
> ----------------------------
> A child educated only at school is an uneducated child.- George Santayana
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 23:07:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Fri Aug 16 22:07:55 2002
Subject: [TML] 2d6 bell curve
In-Reply-To: <005301c245a8$b212e440$ca413b41@customer>
References: <005301c245a8$b212e440$ca413b41@customer>
Message-ID: <20020817070618.096f660c.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Sat, 17 Aug 2002 00:43:46 -0400
John Scarlett <jlscarlett@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Some help please.  Does anyone have or know where I can find a bell
> curve for 2 six sided dice.  Mind you I'm not that mathematically
> incline so it would have to something simple.

How about right here, right now?  :-)

(use a fixed-width font)

2D6
Result  Probability
2       1/36
3       2/36
4       3/36
5       4/36
6       5/36
7       6/36
8       5/36
9       4/36
10      3/36
11      2/36
12      1/36

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 23:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Aug 16 22:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] 2d6 bell curve
In-Reply-To: <005301c245a8$b212e440$ca413b41@customer>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHIEIHINAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>



Some help please.  Does anyone have or know where I can find a bell curve
for 2 six sided dice.  Mind you I'm not that mathematically incline so it
would have to something simple.

Thanks in advance.
John Scarlett
----------------------------
A child educated only at school is an uneducated child.- George Santayana


_
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Actually I think what you want is the frequency distribution curve 
with a class size of one.  Bell curves typically are the result of 
large populations and smoother data.

2D6 = 36 possible combinations that produce values ranging from 2 to 12
resulting from two --theoretically --independant values.

As you say you aren't mathematically inclined, here are graphical ways to 
determine the distribution.

    1   2   3   4   5   6
1   2   3   4   5   6   7
2   3   4   5   6   7   8
3   4   5   6   7   8   9
4   5   6   7   8   9   10
5   6   7   8   9   10  11
6   7   8   9   10  11  12




2   1-1					1
3   1-2, 2-1				2
4   1-3, 2-2, 3-1				3
5   1-4, 2-3, 3-2, 4-1			4
6   1-5, 2-4, 3-3, 4-2, 5-1         5
7   1-6, 2-5, 3-4, 4-3, 5-2, 6-1    6
8   2-6, 3-5, 4-4, 5-3, 6-2		5
9   3-6, 4-5, 5-4, 6-3			4 
10  4-6, 5-5, 6-4				3
11  5-6. 6-5				2
12  6-6					1

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 23:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 16 22:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] 2d6 bell curve
In-Reply-To: <005301c245a8$b212e440$ca413b41@customer>
References: <005301c245a8$b212e440$ca413b41@customer>
Message-ID: <4592.64.8.3.28.1029561092.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

> Some help please.  Does anyone have or know where I can find a bell
> curve for 2 six sided dice.  Mind you I'm not that mathematically
> incline so it would have to something simple.
>
> Thanks in advance.
> John Scarlett

Hello John,

Die    Number    Percent
Roll   of rolls  of success
----------------------------

 2      1          02.7%
 3      2          08.3%
 4      3          16.7%
 5      4          27.8%
 6      5          41.7%
 7      6          58.3%
 8      5          72.2%
 9      4          83.3%
10      3          91.7%
11      2          97.2%
12      1          100 %

Hope this was what you were looking for.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 23:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ken Murphy)
Date: Fri Aug 16 22:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style
Message-ID: <F257QRYnl2oGnIvXeP700013e69@hotmail.com>

>Message: 11
>Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:13:35 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Daniel Tackett <haegen2001@yahoo.com>
>Subject: RE: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
> > I have sent the text of the article to Dan, but I
> > don't seem to have
> > seen the post to which Dan was replying.
> >
> > If it was you, let me know so I can send the
> > article.
> >
> > Frankie
>Ken Murphy was the person who wanted it also.
>Thanks for the article.

   Yes, Frankie,it was me :)
   Icould've sworn I sent an offlist request to your email, but maybe 
not?.Oh well, in any case, I can be reached at:
   MurfNMurf@aol.com
        or
   MurfNMurf@hotmail.com

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 23:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Scott Ayres)
Date: Fri Aug 16 22:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] FFW Question
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020816200812.009ffec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020817054530.80135.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> At 05:18 PM 8/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >In "The Spinward Marches Campaign" timeline there's
> > an entry that says: "Imperium begins evacuation of
> > Regina...".
> >
> >What does this mean?  Who's leaving?  And with
what?
> 
> I'd say vital personnel and records.  Ducal
> household, and as many VIPs as 
> they can shove into the transports.
> 
> >Did the Zho's ever actually attack Regina (in 
> >canon)?
> 
> Depends on your canon.  CT canon is unclear.  In  
> Ground Forces it is stated clearly that there is a 
> landing.
 
Between the old JTAS cover (assuming it's Regina) &
the GF description, that's good enough for me.  Thanks.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 00:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Fri Aug 16 23:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Zhodani Frontier War Philosophy (was Re: Victory in the Frontier Wars)
In-Reply-To: <20020816232302.6238.63480.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020816232302.6238.63480.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <14prlukovr8b9uqj0u65dbd1sajo6rno6g@4ax.com>

On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:23:02 -0700, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>Well, canon makes clear that the areas in question were not 
>"Consulate-claimed space", but intermingled colonies.  Further, in subsequent 
>wars the Zhodani have moved to capture and claim worlds that originally had 
>no Zhodani presence, and force the Imperium to release worlds that had been 
>Imperial.  This is aggression, pure and simple, and it deserves a fitting 
>answer.  As for your analogy of me being beat up, once again it's an 
>encouragement to passivity -- "which is better?  Hoping you can beat me up?" 
>-- as if there is no hope of such a result.

>But there is.  Zhodane is technologically inferior to the Imperium.  I've 
>looked over the maps at Traveller Central.  If they are canon or anything 
>near it, then the Imperials heavily outweigh the Zhodani, to put it mildly.  
>Yet the Zhodani are on a 500 year four war winning streak.  There's something 
>wrong with this picture, and I think that this appeal to passivity is part of 
>it.

Remember that along with psionics, the Zhodani will naturally be masters of
pshrinkology.  Fred Ramen, in his novella _The_Hostile_Stars_ (Available in
Raconteur's Rest at Freelance Traveller), suggests that the Zhodani _don't_
'play to win', but to keep the Imperium uncertain, and guessing.  That may
be a reasonable thought; they don't want to end up dominated or absorbed by
the Imperium, so their objective is to keep the Imperium off-balance or
uncertain enough to prevent them from getting organized for a push against
the Zhodani directly, or from extending their holdings in the area and thus
dominating them that way.
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 00:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 16 23:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Human Nature or "WWRD" or "WWAD"
In-Reply-To: <14prlukovr8b9uqj0u65dbd1sajo6rno6g@4ax.com>
References: <20020816232302.6238.63480.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <14prlukovr8b9uqj0u65dbd1sajo6rno6g@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <1614.64.8.3.28.1029564619.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

After seeing this discussion regards to the constant Zhodani pressure
against the Spinward Marches frontier, I keep having to ask myself...


What would Russia Do?

What would America Do?

In short?  Knowing you have an enemy who fully intends to push the
borders, I'd start thinking about the next war knowing there *will* be a
war.

Furthermore?  I'm not all that certain that having a Jump 5 Warship is all
that needful.  I would almost rather see a bunch of warships that could
hold the line against an enemy aggessor.  Perhaps a few planetoid Monitor
type defenses along with a few scouting elements to constantly keep an eye
on the comings and goings on of Zhodani ships in their own territory. 
Nothing like using scout ships to shadow enemy fleet build ups.  Deep
recon missions if you will...

Comments?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 00:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Fri Aug 16 23:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Tech levelling (was Re: Victory in the Frontier Wars)
In-Reply-To: <20020816232302.6238.63480.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020816232302.6238.63480.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <i0qrluovbv5unu0u4i9un4innhe343m6pc@4ax.com>

On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:23:02 -0700, Hal <hal@buffnet.net> wrote:

>Five hundred years of war?  That could only happen if the spinward marchers 
>were settled for the 500 plus years.  You would think that a world or ten 
>could be brought up to current tech levels in 500 years.  Sheesh!

_Could_ be?  Almost certainly.  _Should_ be, or _want_ to be?  Might be
another story.  If everyone is at the same TL, what happens to the tech
export market?  In fact, what happens to the entirety of interstellar
trade?  Won't the only thing worth shipping - no matter what trade rules
you use - be limited-availability locally-unique luxuries?  Hardly enough
of a market for an Imperium built on trade...

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 00:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Fri Aug 16 23:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lasers and sound
In-Reply-To: <200208170434.MYF00163@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817010845.05183020@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

Fascinating!  Do you have a URL for this?


At 12:34 AM 8/17/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Boeing has a little pdf file showing something called the
>Advanced Tactical Laser.  Apparently, it mounts on the
>Osprey, and is modular - it could be fitted to other aircraft
>or rotorcraft.  It is the same laser unit as the Airborne
>Laser intended for missile intercept, except that instead of
>the whole bank of power generators, it uses only one modular
>power generator.
>
>This limits its power to 300 kilowatts continuous beam
>output, with a range between 12 and 20km as long as the craft
>operates below cloud level.
>
>They seem to imply that the weapon is completely silent in
>operation and effect, and the ideal weapon for close air
>support.  The package was apparently demonstrated to SOCOM in
>1999.
>
>But no sound --
>________________
>Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
>Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 00:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 16 23:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Tech levelling (was Re: Victory in the Frontier Wars)
In-Reply-To: <i0qrluovbv5unu0u4i9un4innhe343m6pc@4ax.com>
References: <20020816232302.6238.63480.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <i0qrluovbv5unu0u4i9un4innhe343m6pc@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <1746.64.8.3.28.1029565504.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

Hello Jeff,

> _Could_ be?  Almost certainly.  _Should_ be, or _want_ to be?  Might be
> another story.  If everyone is at the same TL, what happens to the tech
> export market?  In fact, what happens to the entirety of interstellar
> trade?  Won't the only thing worth shipping - no matter what trade
> rules you use - be limited-availability locally-unique luxuries?
> Hardly enough of a market for an Imperium built on trade...

I was impressed with POCKET EMPIRES explanation of why we have trade.  It
isn't that we have one world with a higher tech monopolizing on trade with
the surrounding low tech worlds - it is a matter of economic inequities
where world A is more effecient at manufacturing widget A while World B is
more efficient at manufacturing widget B.  Rather than make both Widgets A
and B on both worlds, A makes widget A, and imports widget B.  B imports
widget A and exports widget B.  Between the two of them, they have an
overall savings in cost for their needs *by* trading as opposed to
manufacturing.
  The only other reasons for trade would be a manufacturing world needing
  raw materials and trade markets.

                     Hal



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 00:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Fri Aug 16 23:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] 2d6 bell curve
Message-ID: <008901c245b7$c934af00$ca413b41@customer>

Thank you all for your help. Bell curve probably not the right phrase.  I'm
trying to turn die rolls into percentages, e.g how many psi's the Zohdani
have based on the die roll to determine power level.

Are percetages below correct?

Roll    Chances
2         1 in 36    02.77%
3         2 in 36    08.33%
4         3 in 36    16.66%
5         4 in 36    27.77%
6         5 in 36    41.66%
7         6 in 36    58.33%
8         5 in 36    41.66%
9         4 in 36    27.77%
10       3 in 36    16.66%
11       2 in 36    08.33%
12       1 in 36    02.77%

John Scarlett
------------------------------------
Sanity is a madness put to good uses. -- George Santayana




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 00:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 16 23:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] 2d6 bell curve
In-Reply-To: <008901c245b7$c934af00$ca413b41@customer>
References: <008901c245b7$c934af00$ca413b41@customer>
Message-ID: <2073.64.8.3.28.1029566427.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

Hello John,
  Below is your chart in its original form.  Below that chart is my
  corrected form based on what it appears you are trying to do:

> Are percetages below correct?
>
> Roll    Chances
> 2         1 in 36    02.77%
> 3         2 in 36    08.33%
> 4         3 in 36    16.66%
> 5         4 in 36    27.77%
> 6         5 in 36    41.66%
> 7         6 in 36    58.33%
> 8         5 in 36    41.66%
> 9         4 in 36    27.77%
> 10       3 in 36    16.66%
> 11       2 in 36    08.33%
> 12       1 in 36    02.77%

2 or 12:   2.78%
3 or 11:   5.56%
4 or 10:   8.33%
5 or  9:  11.11%
6 or  8:  13.89%
7      :  16.67%



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 01:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug 17 00:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] 2d6 bell curve
In-Reply-To: <005301c245a8$b212e440$ca413b41@customer>
Message-ID: <B9834692.6A0CA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/16/02 9:43 PM, John Scarlett at jlscarlett@earthlink.net wrote:

> Some help please.  Does anyone have or know where I can find a bell curve
> for 2 six sided dice.  Mind you I'm not that mathematically incline so it
> would have to something simple.
>=20
> Thanks in advance.
> John Scarlett

See http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/dice.html

Tod

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 01:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Ayers)
Date: Sat Aug 17 00:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] 2d6 bell curve
In-Reply-To: <3D5DDA45.4340BA82@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <002201c245c0$82015d00$2f7de40c@loki>

One more way to SEE it.......................

                     *
                 *   *   *
             *   *   *   *   *
         *   *   *   *   *   *   *
     *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *    *
 *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *    *    *
 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 02:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug 17 01:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
References: <53.1b1ff013.2a8f29b1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <004101c245c7$371c3880$3716bd50@martinjd>

>
> If I'm a major admiral, then what I've spent my life working on is the
> defense of the realm, at the risk of being irradiated or vaccumed or
lasered
> or nuked.  If the defense of the realm required me to stand up and speak
out
> and lose money, that would be a piece of cake.

You would think, no? But read history, or modern politics....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 02:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug 17 01:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Tech levelling (was Re: Victory in the Frontier Wars)
In-Reply-To: <i0qrluovbv5unu0u4i9un4innhe343m6pc@4ax.com>
References: <20020816232302.6238.63480.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <i0qrluovbv5unu0u4i9un4innhe343m6pc@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020817184920.A30765@freeman.little-possums.net>

Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
> If everyone is at the same TL, what happens to the tech export
> market?  In fact, what happens to the entirety of interstellar
> trade?

That's right.  Nations of the same TL don't do any trade.  That's why
only a few small tramp ships a year straggle out of Japan to other
modern industrialised countries.


>  Won't the only thing worth shipping - no matter what trade rules
> you use - be limited-availability locally-unique luxuries?

Yes, you're right.  Australia only exports Tasmanian Devil Steaks.
The technology exists in Ausrtalia to make all its own clothes, so the
nation imports none at all from China.  You can get petrochemicals on
any continent, so that explains why oil tankers don't exist.


Good to know that trade in the Imperium works the same way as the real
world.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 03:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug 17 02:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Tech levelling (was Re: Victory in the Frontier Wars)
In-Reply-To: <20020817184920.A30765@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20020816232302.6238.63480.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <i0qrluovbv5unu0u4i9un4innhe343m6pc@4ax.com> <20020817184920.A30765@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020817190246.B30765@freeman.little-possums.net>

Timothy Little wrote:
[Some rather uncalled-for sarcastic irony]

I am very sorry for posting a message of that tone on the TML.  In
future, I will follow the time-honoured advice of waiting at least
five minutes before pressing "send".  :(


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 03:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 17 02:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Tech levelling (was Re: Victory in the Frontier Wars)
In-Reply-To: <20020817190246.B30765@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20020816232302.6238.63480.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <i0qrluovbv5unu0u4i9un4innhe343m6pc@4ax.com>
 <20020817184920.A30765@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <20020817190246.B30765@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3196.64.8.3.28.1029575436.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

> Timothy Little wrote:
> [Some rather uncalled-for sarcastic irony]
>
> I am very sorry for posting a message of that tone on the TML.  In
> future, I will follow the time-honoured advice of waiting at least five
> minutes before pressing "send".  :(

For your penance Brother Tim, thou shalt write a newbie Essay detailing
the trafficking of Groats via the Imperial trade lanes.  Once thou hast
done that minor task, thou shalt wear coats of virgin Groathair, wetted
down with mineral oil and soaked in Cayenne PepperJuice Extract.  Only
then will thou has redeemed thyself in the eyes of thine order's brothren.

          Brother Hal



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 04:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 17 03:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814093359.01680b70@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20817.025944.1p9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 12:26 AM 8/14/2002 -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>In mail you write:
>> > So far, the official numbers seem to indicate that there's not an
>> > awful lot of trade in relative terms.  This is not awfully surprising:
>> > it's expensive to put stuff up into orbit and expensive to ship it.
>>Huh? What makes you think it's expensive to get stuff into orbit?
>>I seem to recall someone running the numbers a while back and having it
>>come out cheaper than shipping by rail.
>
> Isn't the access to launch facilities a bit more limited than rail access?

*Starports* may be limited on a world (or not, if it has a really high
traffic volume). But consider that Earth is listed as having something
like 3 or 4 somewhere or other.

Most ground to orbit vehicles in Traveller can land at the equivalent
of a an airport. A *small* one. 

Heck, if you aren't using Heplar or the like, a ships boat or a modular
cutter ought to be able to land and take off from a small *parking lot*.

Also, anybody with the tech to do CG vehicles is going to have little
trouble moving cargo between any two points on a planet.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 05:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 17 04:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <B9806BBF.69A71%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20817.035102.8c0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Ref:  "Have you ever heard that high whine with the increasing pitch
>        that a camera flash makes before it is fully charged?"
> Player:  "Yes."
> Ref:  "You're hearing that right now."

This is even worse if you happen to know about some of the things that
need that sort of power build-up to trigger. <eg>

Just think of all the nasties that need a pulse of high voltage, high
current power. 

Everything from jury-rigged EMP bombs to homevuilt nukes. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 05:27:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 17 04:27:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <20020815080747.A23732@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20817.030410.4g0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Mark Urbin wrote:
>> Isn't the access to launch facilities a bit more limited than rail
>> access?
>
> Not when there are mass-market contragrav vehicles.  "Launch
> facilities" can be anywhere with a view of the sky.
>
> You only need discrete launch facilities when the only way to get into
> space is through dangerous, massive, and/or exceedingly costly
> equipment.  That ceases to be true as soon as contragrav is invented.

Yep, the reason for the siting of most current space launch facilities
is so that there's nothing important "downrange" of them.

And "downrange" is determined mostly by latitude and the earth's
rotation. For various reason's, it's easiest to launch a vehicle *with*
the earth's rotation (at the equator this gives you around 1000 mph of
extra speed). And you can only launch into an orbit with an inclination
*less* than your latitude by expending a lot of extra fuel. In fact,
that's one of the things that was used to pin down locations for the
Soviet launch complexes. 

Vandenberg is used for launches into polar orbit, because it doesn't
have anything important due south. Kennedy is limited by not wanting to
launch over various carribean islands, most notably Cuba.

But if you have high ISP rockets, or thruster plate tech, you can
pretty much ignore these details. 

> In fact, if you have contragrav you can even get into orbit without
> thrusters.

And with thruster plates, you can also be a lot closer to
civilization, because you don't have to use flying bombs as propulsion.

For lower tech worlds, spaceport locations will be more restricted.
there was a good article on where likely places for major spaceports on
Earth would likely spring up published in Analog sometime in the last
10-15 years. I think it was one of G. Haryy Stine's Alternate View
columns.

Oh yeah, that reminds me. Baen books just released "Med Ship" by Murray
Leinster. It's a collection of all his "Med Ship" stories. hey are set
in a universe that's got a lot of similarities with the TU. And some
big differences. Even so, it'd be fairly easy to make into a variant
Traveller.

Their answer to geting into orbit is "interesting". <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 05:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 17 04:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Vilani Chess
In-Reply-To: <l03010d05b9804706017d@[192.168.1.67]>
Message-ID: <20817.041129.4j9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> As I mentioned yesterday, this is something I'm working up for inclusion as
> a sidebar to GT: Nobles, as a bit of chrome. I am also thinking about a
> "pure" Vilani boardgame, but that will probably be a loosely disguised lift
> of some other ancient game, like Senet or Latrones or some such. 

Well, Nine Man Morris is pretty darned old. And it's both simple and a
bear to get *good* at. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 05:33:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 17 04:33:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <memo.870081@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20817.035325.8b6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020814155827.00b54720@mailhost.efn.org>
>
>> I don't think that it's fair to start counting down without giving 
>> *some* hint as to what the characters should be reacting to.  
>
> What if the 'clue' is a mechanical voice counting down?

"I'm a thirty second bomb. I'm a thirty second bomb. 29..."

I've got an electronic kitchen timer with an LCD display that has 1"
tall digits. Might be fun to pre set it to something and when players
ask "what do we see?" show that that, *after* hitting the start button.
<eg>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 06:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sat Aug 17 05:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
Message-ID: <3d5e36c8.6019642@post.demon.co.uk>

I've noticed a disturbing trend among some starship designers to give
luxury accommodation to the ship's crew.  Even individual staterooms
for each rating are not considered extravagant.

=46rankly, I think this mollycoddling and pampering will be fatal to the
morale of His Imperial Majesty's navy.

I've come to this conclusion after doing some reading on shipboard
life during the Age of Sail (which we all know Trav is partially based
on).  On a typical 74-gun ship of the line:

Senior officers had 8' square cabins, with a deck height of 6'.  That
makes about 10 square metres per officer:  or a single 4-ton standard
stateroom per 5 officers.

The crew of 500 were accommodated in an area of about 6000 square
feet.  Assuming the same deck height, that makes 1000 cubic metres or
2 cu.m per man.  One 4-ton stateroom per 28 people.

Of course, when the ship was at sea the crew would be observing
watches, so only half the crew would be asleep at one time, and they'd
have effectively twice the amount of space.  In Traveller terms, that
would equate to hot-bunking.

It's also worth pointing out that this accommodation wasn't only for
short periods:  many sailers would spend 4-5 years on shipboard before
they ever set foot on land again.

So, simplifying things a little, let's say officers get to share a
double stateroom with hot-bunking (1 per 4 officers) and crew are in
16-person bunkrooms, again with hot-bunking (1 per 32 crew). =20

Introduce this as standard design policy for warships and think how
much extra volume for weapons and powerplants will be freed up!

(Of course the crews might grumble a little, but introduce a few of
the disciplinary policies from the Age of Sail as well and they'll
soon settle down...)

Stephen

www.stempest.demon.co.uk/traveller/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 06:27:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Aug 17 05:27:45 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <memo.932774@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <20020817041418.74310.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>
> Oh come on guys.  The man has done something that only
> three other men have done in the history of the game. 
> I mean, there have only been 3 other guys in the past
> 100+ years that have done what this man has done.  And
> he's not finished.  He is doing it with less "help"
> and quicker than any of the others (at least the last
> 100).  Surely that doesn't escape notice and at least
> a little awe and respect.

It makes a lot of sense if you happen to be interested in the sport 
concerned, and perhaps a passing moment of notice if you don't care for, 
what was it, baseball, but do respect achievement. It does help when you 
understand what the achievement actually *is* - and I think that's the 
point people are making, the way this fellow's accomplishment is being 
expressed is in such game-related terms that only a devotee of the game 
can tell what he's done that is noteworthy.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 06:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Aug 17 05:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Note on labgrab ring code...
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020817083642.01688e50@mail.charter.net>

If you are using frames on your site, the code has to exit your frames when 
clicked.
If you don't know how to do this, and are using frames, you shouldn't be 
using frames.

I'll fix the default code today so it does this automatically.

Second, the ring code has be on the page registered with the ring.

None of this, ring code takes to one page and the surfer has to hunt for 
the ring code to continue travelling the ring stuff.



-----------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Whether you're Bill Clinton or the head of a large
corporation like Enron, it seems the best defense
in any legal matter is to act like you just arrived
on the planet." -- Spencer F. Katt
-----------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 16:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 17 15:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Victory in the Frontier Wars
Message-ID: <14c.129326ec.2a8fa9d6@aol.com>

>>Doug - you must have written that when I was not paying attention to the 
>>list.
>>  Was it a post, or published?  Where can I find a copy?
>
>It is in GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces.  Found in better gaming shops 
>everywhere.

Absolutely. Buy one, and give Doug his $0.27 and me my . . . um . . . hmmmmm 
. . . SJ pays Marc . . . [punches buttons on calculator] . . . Marc pays me . 
. . ummm [punches more buttons on calculator] . . . hmmmmm if we can sell one 
to every inhabitant of Los Angeles [more buttons]

 [sigh]

Well, All I can suggest is that you buy at least one. I'm sure Doug will 
agree.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 16:53:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Sat Aug 17 15:53:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <3d5e36c8.6019642@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFCENCDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

I've been thinking of using quad bunk racking for sleeping accommodation for
lower ranks but with greatly enlarged mess and rec areas to compensate.
Petty Officers and Officers would get smaller sleeping areas and their own
messes with the amount of space increasing as you rank went up.  Only the
most senior NCO, 1st Lt and CO would get cabins.  This would give plenty of
recreation space etc (useful for training).

For ex.

20 ratings per Large stateroom - Saves 4 large Staterooms - use 3 for mess
area.
6 NCOs per Small Stateroom - saves 5 small staterooms - Use 4 for mess NCOs
mess.
2 snr NCOs per Sml Stateroom - share NCOs mess.
1 Snr NCO in a small stateroom - also share NCOs mess as president.
6 Jnr Officers (midshipman or subbies) per large stateroom share Wardroom.
2 Officers per small stateroom
1st Lt get small stateroom
CO gets Lrg Stateroom

I can't dig out figs or examples of what difference this would make as all
my Trav stuff is packed right now.

Comments

Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.
I need to remember details like that, until we get to know each other
better.  Some men get so nervous if a lady shows up at the restaurant with a
box of explosives. - Florence, www.purrsia.com/Freefall , 7th Dec 2001

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Stephen Tempest
> Sent: 17 August 2002 13:10
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
>
>
> I've noticed a disturbing trend among some starship designers to give
> luxury accommodation to the ship's crew.  Even individual staterooms
> for each rating are not considered extravagant.
>
> Frankly, I think this mollycoddling and pampering will be fatal to the
> morale of His Imperial Majesty's navy.
>
> I've come to this conclusion after doing some reading on shipboard
> life during the Age of Sail (which we all know Trav is partially based
> on).  On a typical 74-gun ship of the line:
>
> Senior officers had 8' square cabins, with a deck height of 6'.  That
> makes about 10 square metres per officer:  or a single 4-ton standard
> stateroom per 5 officers.
>
> The crew of 500 were accommodated in an area of about 6000 square
> feet.  Assuming the same deck height, that makes 1000 cubic metres or
> 2 cu.m per man.  One 4-ton stateroom per 28 people.
>
> Of course, when the ship was at sea the crew would be observing
> watches, so only half the crew would be asleep at one time, and they'd
> have effectively twice the amount of space.  In Traveller terms, that
> would equate to hot-bunking.
>
> It's also worth pointing out that this accommodation wasn't only for
> short periods:  many sailers would spend 4-5 years on shipboard before
> they ever set foot on land again.
>
> So, simplifying things a little, let's say officers get to share a
> double stateroom with hot-bunking (1 per 4 officers) and crew are in
> 16-person bunkrooms, again with hot-bunking (1 per 32 crew).
>
> Introduce this as standard design policy for warships and think how
> much extra volume for weapons and powerplants will be freed up!
>
> (Of course the crews might grumble a little, but introduce a few of
> the disciplinary policies from the Age of Sail as well and they'll
> soon settle down...)
>
> Stephen
>
> www.stempest.demon.co.uk/traveller/
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 16:54:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Sat Aug 17 15:54:51 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <20020817041418.74310.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFOENBDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

All kidding aside I am truly baffled.  I take it on faith that someone
(Barry Bonds I guess) has achieved an impressive sporting milestone, for
which I congratulate him, but I still don't have the faintest idea what the
conversation was about.

Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.
I need to remember details like that, until we get to know each other
better.  Some men get so nervous if a lady shows up at the restaurant with a
box of explosives. - Florence, www.purrsia.com/Freefall , 7th Dec 2001

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Paul Walker
> Sent: 17 August 2002 05:14
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
>
>
> --- "Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> > "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@yahoo.com> writes:
> > >
> > > they don't make no sense t'me neither and I live
> > on the same
> > > continent as one, same region as the other
> >
> > I understood it, but I don't understand it, if you
> > follow me.
>
> Oh come on guys.  The man has done something that only
> three other men have done in the history of the game.
> I mean, there have only been 3 other guys in the past
> 100+ years that have done what this man has done.  And
> he's not finished.  He is doing it with less "help"
> and quicker than any of the others (at least the last
> 100).  Surely that doesn't escape notice and at least
> a little awe and respect.
>
> Paul
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
> http://www.hotjobs.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 16:55:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Sat Aug 17 15:55:48 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020816201133.009e25d0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFKENBDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

Huh???  No kidding what 600 hysteria; if it's sport it's got to be one of
your American games or racing of some sort.  Now over here my big sports
news (as far as I can tell) is 1st day of Premiership football season
(soccer to the ones on the other side of the pond).

Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.
I need to remember details like that, until we get to know each other
better.  Some men get so nervous if a lady shows up at the restaurant with a
box of explosives. - Florence, www.purrsia.com/Freefall , 7th Dec 2001

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
> Sent: 17 August 2002 04:12
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
>
>
> At 04:38 PM 8/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
> > >From: "Peter Scarrott" <peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
> >
> > >To bring this On Topic I saved these messages to give to my players
> > >as alien contact guides.  You guys are the same species as us, speak
> > >the same language and belong to the same (general) society and yet
> > >the following messages make no sense to me whatsoever.
> >
> >they don't make no sense t'me neither and I live on the same
> >continent as one, same region as the other
>
> You're kidding me.  You managed to miss the 600 hysteria!?
>
>
> --
>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
>
> "Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
> sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 16:57:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat Aug 17 15:57:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Human Nature or "WWRD" or "WWAD"
In-Reply-To: <1614.64.8.3.28.1029564619.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEFOEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

I think that jump 5/6 ships should be reserved for special missions. Things
like courier duty and special ops, not line of battle stuff.  So a slightly
larger fully stealthed scoutship with more legs for deep recon is an
excellent idea. Obviously such a ship would be lightly armed. If they're
seen they should run, not fight.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of hal@buffnet.net
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2002 2:10 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Human Nature or "WWRD" or "WWAD"

After seeing this discussion regards to the constant Zhodani pressure
against the Spinward Marches frontier, I keep having to ask myself...


What would Russia Do?

What would America Do?

In short?  Knowing you have an enemy who fully intends to push the
borders, I'd start thinking about the next war knowing there *will* be a
war.

Furthermore?  I'm not all that certain that having a Jump 5 Warship is all
that needful.  I would almost rather see a bunch of warships that could
hold the line against an enemy aggessor.  Perhaps a few planetoid Monitor
type defenses along with a few scouting elements to constantly keep an eye
on the comings and goings on of Zhodani ships in their own territory.
Nothing like using scout ships to shadow enemy fleet build ups.  Deep
recon missions if you will...

Comments?


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Graham Donald)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rebellion PBEM?
Message-ID: <LAW2-F12aTh2oJfjhCA00014374@hotmail.com>

I remember reading somewhere that someone was working on a PBEM to simulate 
the Rebellion, in which people would take the part of the various factions.

Does anyone have any information on this project?

Graham





_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Vickers)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <memo.932774@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAKEDJDLAA.redroach@pobox.com>

the way this fellow's accomplishment is being
expressed is in such game-related terms that only a devotee of the game
can tell what he's done that is noteworthy.


I am a devotee of said game, but I still don't understand the furor. Its
just Barry Bonds. Loud mouth and possibly baseball player.
Its not like he found a cure for Polio or something.

TV


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:04:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:04:00 2002
Subject: [TML] Human Nature or "WWRD" or "WWAD"
In-Reply-To: <1614.64.8.3.28.1029564619.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <14prlukovr8b9uqj0u65dbd1sajo6rno6g@4ax.com>
 <20020816232302.6238.63480.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <14prlukovr8b9uqj0u65dbd1sajo6rno6g@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817090545.009eb100@mindspring.com>

At 02:10 AM 8/17/02 -0400, you wrote:
>After seeing this discussion regards to the constant Zhodani pressure
>against the Spinward Marches frontier, I keep having to ask myself...
>
>What would Russia Do?

Get drunk on vodka

>What would America Do?

Get drunk on crappy beer.

>In short?  Knowing you have an enemy who fully intends to push the
>borders, I'd start thinking about the next war knowing there *will* be a
>war.
>
>Furthermore?  I'm not all that certain that having a Jump 5 Warship is all
>that needful.  I would almost rather see a bunch of warships that could
>hold the line against an enemy aggessor.  Perhaps a few planetoid Monitor
>type defenses along with a few scouting elements to constantly keep an eye
>on the comings and goings on of Zhodani ships in their own territory.
>Nothing like using scout ships to shadow enemy fleet build ups.  Deep
>recon missions if you will..

I've always thought that the worlds on the edge of Zhodani space will 
either have a large local fleet with planetoid monitors, massive orbital 
and ground based defenses, or they will have the declaration of "open 
world" status taped next to the deep space transmitters.

Some worlds simply cannot afford or maintain the forces necessary to even 
slow down the Zhos for five minutes.  Their best bet is to hunker down and 
wait for the Imperial Navy to come along and kick the invaders out.  Some 
worlds in the Jewell cluster will fight, even if it is solely as guerrillas.

There will be deep penetration raids, and the IISS will be racing around 
trying to piece together a clear picture of the Zhodani movements.  Trying 
to track down your own command structure could be just as difficult as 
finding the enemy!

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Death is an experience best avoided, as it makes
reliable internet access difficult to obtain.
                        - Xaonon, in alt.atheism



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:05:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:05:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
References: <3d5e36c8.6019642@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3D5E795F.ADC2DCBF@mindspring.com>

Stephen Tempest wrote:
> 
> I've noticed a disturbing trend among some starship designers to give
> luxury accommodation to the ship's crew.  Even individual staterooms
> for each rating are not considered extravagant.
> 
> Frankly, I think this mollycoddling and pampering will be fatal to the
> morale of His Imperial Majesty's navy.
> 
> I've come to this conclusion after doing some reading on shipboard
> life during the Age of Sail (which we all know Trav is partially based
> on).  On a typical 74-gun ship of the line:
> 
> Senior officers had 8' square cabins, with a deck height of 6'.  That
> makes about 10 square metres per officer:  or a single 4-ton standard
> stateroom per 5 officers.
> 
> The crew of 500 were accommodated in an area of about 6000 square
> feet.  Assuming the same deck height, that makes 1000 cubic metres or
> 2 cu.m per man.  One 4-ton stateroom per 28 people.
> 
> Of course, when the ship was at sea the crew would be observing
> watches, so only half the crew would be asleep at one time, and they'd
> have effectively twice the amount of space.  In Traveller terms, that
> would equate to hot-bunking.
> 
> It's also worth pointing out that this accommodation wasn't only for
> short periods:  many sailers would spend 4-5 years on shipboard before
> they ever set foot on land again.
> 
> So, simplifying things a little, let's say officers get to share a
> double stateroom with hot-bunking (1 per 4 officers) and crew are in
> 16-person bunkrooms, again with hot-bunking (1 per 32 crew).
> 
> Introduce this as standard design policy for warships and think how
> much extra volume for weapons and powerplants will be freed up!
> 
> (Of course the crews might grumble a little, but introduce a few of
> the disciplinary policies from the Age of Sail as well and they'll
> soon settle down...)
> 
> Stephen
> 

I think that would be a little harsh.
IMMTU
On small ships the CO gets an individual small stateroom. Sr officers
may also get one. Jr. Officers and Sr. enlisted will usually bunk two
per small stateroom. Jr enlisted are in bunks.
On larger ships the CO gets an individual stateroom, possibly a luxury
stateroom. These might also be available for Sr. officers and staff of
an admiral. Jr officers and Sr. enlisted double or triple up in
staterooms or may have individual small staterooms. Jr enlisted are in
bunks.
No hot bunking except in emergencies.
These may change because of mission requirements. I have one class of
frigates for the 100th fleet with everyone but the CO in bunks. Of
course its J3 M6 and heavily armed with a PA bay and the Whipsnade
configurable turrets. 

Thanks again for the missile tactic, unknown tactician. This ship was
inadvertently built for it.
IMLE that's the way the US navy worked and if it was good enough for me
its good enough for my descendants.
YMMV.

-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute.
That's relativity.
                               -Albert Einstein

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:06:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:06:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Landgrab Webring URL
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816225841.00cee348@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817091409.009ebab0@mindspring.com>

At 10:59 PM 8/16/02 -0400, you wrote:
>http://www.urbin.net/EWW/RPG/TRAV/LGWR/
>
>Share and enjoy....

OK, time to get the Heya page put together.  Along with getting ready for 
WorldCon.  And preparing for my oral board with Foster City.  And the 
upcoming playtest.  And my trip to Orycon...

For a guy on disability, I'm pretty busy.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
- Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Tech Levelling
Message-ID: <ieltlusdgnbfqc0tunp6ud23ifflbe4256@4ax.com>

On Sat, 17 Aug 2002 04:26:03 -0700, hal@buffnet.net wrote:

[Quoting me]

>> _Could_ be?  Almost certainly.  _Should_ be, or _want_ to be?  Might be
>> another story.  If everyone is at the same TL, what happens to the tech
>> export market?  In fact, what happens to the entirety of interstellar
>> trade?  Won't the only thing worth shipping - no matter what trade
>> rules you use - be limited-availability locally-unique luxuries?
>> Hardly enough of a market for an Imperium built on trade...

>I was impressed with POCKET EMPIRES explanation of why we have trade.  It
>isn't that we have one world with a higher tech monopolizing on trade with
>the surrounding low tech worlds - it is a matter of economic inequities
>where world A is more effecient at manufacturing widget A while World B is
>more efficient at manufacturing widget B.  Rather than make both Widgets A
>and B on both worlds, A makes widget A, and imports widget B.  B imports
>widget A and exports widget B.  Between the two of them, they have an
>overall savings in cost for their needs *by* trading as opposed to
>manufacturing.

Oh, yes, I did oversimplify - but one very important aspect of tech level
will be efficiency.  As I read the tech progression, _except_ for the
transitions across the 'plateau' TLs, most (but admittedly not all) of the
gain in TL represents a gain in efficiency of manufacture/processing/
whatever.  Unless deliberately induced, it's unlikely that variation in
efficiency will result in a trade benefit when the cost of shipping is
accounted for - because the cost of shipping is so high (and that's with
the broken, can't-make-a-profit canonical rules).

>  The only other reasons for trade would be a manufacturing world needing
>  raw materials and trade markets.

And _that_ is another argument against tech levelling - lower TLs often
mean lower total cost of production of raw materials, or of simpler
manufacture of goods where the good doesn't really change with TL, even
though more labor may be required.  Think about why Latin America and
places like India, Indonesia, the Philippines, etc., are at generally lower
TL than western Europe or non-Latin America.




--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:07:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:07:55 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <16b.124568c1.2a8f29fe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817092651.009de420@mindspring.com>

At 12:24 AM 8/17/02 -0400, you wrote:
>  >All for a quixoic attempt to start a war
>  >that nobody wants?
>
>As everyone will recall, it is the Zhodani that are already starting wars
>that nobody wants.

4.5 wars in 500+ years.  By your logic we should *immediately* nuke 
Germany.  They've started two devastating wars in the last 100 
years.  Remember that to the average Imperial citizen before 1107, the 
Frontier Wars were either history or that joke of a war that happened 20 
years ago.

Tell me, if I came up to you and insisted that Sweden was a threat to our 
way of life, what would you say?


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Children nowadays are not respectful of their parents. They grab the best
food at the table without thought of sharing. They trample on their
parents' toes as they move around the room, and if there are visitors,
they interrupt rudely with their own concerns.  --Socrates, c. 5th century BC




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:08:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:08:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Tech Levelling
Message-ID: <lfltluk0rocq2fhglkaq24jvjemv56mupr@4ax.com>

On Sat, 17 Aug 2002 04:26:03 -0700, Timothy Little
<tim@freeman.little-possums.net> wrote:

>Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
>> If everyone is at the same TL, what happens to the tech export
>> market?  In fact, what happens to the entirety of interstellar
>> trade?

>That's right.  Nations of the same TL don't do any trade.  That's why
>only a few small tramp ships a year straggle out of Japan to other
>modern industrialised countries.

Think cost of transport as an additional factor.  If shipping a car from
Japan to the US added an additional $1000 per Traveller Displacement Ton
(or about $1000-1500 per car [I assumed dimensions of 15'x8'x5']) per week,
and it took a minimum of a week to get from origin to destination, would
there be as much trade in cars between the US and Japan?  And at that, how
many cars are really imported from Japan any more?  Most of the Japanese
companies have set up to do some manufacture here in the US.

>>  Won't the only thing worth shipping - no matter what trade rules
>> you use - be limited-availability locally-unique luxuries?

>Yes, you're right.  Australia only exports Tasmanian Devil Steaks.
>The technology exists in Ausrtalia to make all its own clothes, so the
>nation imports none at all from China.  You can get petrochemicals on
>any continent, so that explains why oil tankers don't exist.

Ummm... Look again: China is at a lower TL than Australia, and clothing is
one of those things where it costs less to make at a lower TL.

And what _does_ Australia export?  And to where?  I don't see very much of
anything that has 'Made in Australia' on it...

Current petroleum production techniques haven't really changed all that
much since about 1940, have they?  And it's not really cost-effective to
use those techniques in some areas, like Burma and the US Southwest, is it,
because those fields don't really produce all that much.  But if you use
(higher TL) productive techniques there, it's still too expensive to
compete with the TL5/6 oil coming out of the Arabian peninsula.  And it
would still be cheaper to get at the more accessible Arabian oil even with
the same higher TL production techniques.

Yes, I simplified in my earlier posts, and yes, I omitted some factors that
I shouldn't have.  But TL _is_ a big factor in trade, even in the real
world today.

>Good to know that trade in the Imperium works the same way as the real
>world.

I suspect it actually does.  But you have to remember to take into account
that while TWIAVBP, the Imperium is a much bigger place, even
proportionally...

[and in a separate message]

>Timothy Little wrote:
>[Some rather uncalled-for sarcastic irony]

>I am very sorry for posting a message of that tone on the TML.  In
>future, I will follow the time-honoured advice of waiting at least
>five minutes before pressing "send".  :(

De nada!  You made some valid points; and snarkasm is in the mind of the
beholder.  I didn't take it that way.



--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:09:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:09:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value
 targets)
In-Reply-To: <19d.71c6b86.2a8f276b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817094854.009f3ec0@mindspring.com>

At 12:13 AM 8/17/02 -0400, you wrote:

>Were there any who didn't?  I suppose the Vargr and the Aslans consider
>themselves to be content with _their_ borders -- not to mention the Zhodani
>themselves, who have been absorbing Imperial worlds for 500 years now.

Not supported by the maps in Spinward Marches Campaign.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:10:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:10:40 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <20817.035325.8b6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <memo.870081@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817094644.009df2d0@mindspring.com>

At 03:53 AM 8/17/02 -0800, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
> > In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020814155827.00b54720@mailhost.efn.org>
> >
> >> I don't think that it's fair to start counting down without giving
> >> *some* hint as to what the characters should be reacting to.
> >
> > What if the 'clue' is a mechanical voice counting down?
>
>"I'm a thirty second bomb. I'm a thirty second bomb. 29..."
>
>I've got an electronic kitchen timer with an LCD display that has 1"
>tall digits. Might be fun to pre set it to something and when players
>ask "what do we see?" show that that, *after* hitting the start button.
><eg>

I pulled that in a modern-day CORPS game.  With five seconds left on the 
clock, I called out "BOOM!"  When the players complained about there still 
being time on the clock, i told them "You are dealing with an insane 
bomber, and you expect him to be honest with his timepieces?

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Some days, you just can't get rid  of a bomb!"
                     -Adam West, as Batman 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:11:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:11:46 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <20020817041418.74310.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <m33ctegndc.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817093312.009d7040@mindspring.com>

At 09:14 PM 8/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Oh come on guys.  The man has done something that only
>three other men have done in the history of the game.
>I mean, there have only been 3 other guys in the past
>100+ years that have done what this man has done.  And
>he's not finished.  He is doing it with less "help"
>and quicker than any of the others (at least the last
>100).  Surely that doesn't escape notice and at least
>a little awe and respect.

There are many sports that I don't get, like hockey.  But when Gretzky 
shattered every scoring record, I knew enough to be impressed.

ObTrav: the characters get the 57th Century equivalent of Barry Bonds on 
their ship.. only they have no idea who he is!


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:12:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:12:41 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <1a8.6e10ff1.2a8ea4f7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817093149.009e6d90@mindspring.com>

At 02:56 PM 8/16/02 -0400, you wrote:

>  >It's been 49 years.  The Korean War would have ended in 1951 had Mac
>  >listened to his orders and stopped short of the Yalu.  But no, Dugout Doug
>  >had to threaten Mao and provoke a massive attack.  After the Chinese came
>  >in, there was no hope of dismantling the DPRK.
>
>And with the Chinese openly threatening to nuke Los Angeles and openly
>preparing for war with us, I think that merely expands my statement regarding
>his dismissal.

Pax Americana?  You volunteering for occupation duty?


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:13:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:13:37 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <53.1b1ff013.2a8f29b1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817092353.009f0b80@mindspring.com>

At 12:23 AM 8/17/02 -0400, you wrote:

>  >OK, you face losing everything you've spent your life working on.  We are
>  >taking about a thirty year career here.  And probably a nice title, a
>  >pension, and life time on the lecture circut, making money telling 
> Tales to
>  >Curl Your Toes.
>
>Money?
>
>If I'm a major admiral, then what I've spent my life working on is the
>defense of the realm, at the risk of being irradiated or vaccumed or lasered
>or nuked.  If the defense of the realm required me to stand up and speak out
>and lose money, that would be a piece of cake.

You snipped the bit about spending the rest of your life on an Exile 
World.  You notice we haven't heard anything from Admiral Lord Santocheev 
since Norris sacked him...

You seem to be quite single-minded on the subject.  So was MacArthur.  Look 
where it got him.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry   gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Cry "CHEEBLE!" and let slip the hamsters of war!



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:14:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:14:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <3d5e36c8.6019642@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817091639.009e3740@mindspring.com>

At 12:09 PM 8/17/02 +0000, you wrote:
>I've noticed a disturbing trend among some starship designers to give
>luxury accommodation to the ship's crew.  Even individual staterooms
>for each rating are not considered extravagant.
>
>Frankly, I think this mollycoddling and pampering will be fatal to the
>morale of His Imperial Majesty's navy.

I agree.  One of the reason for bunking members of the same fire team 
together in the Army is producing a tighter level of teamwork.  It 
works.  I still remember some of the Sunday night cleaning parties with 
fondness.  We worked as a team, trading turns on *my* stereo for working 
music, and after we were done, we had a room that would make a CSM weep 
with joy.

>So, simplifying things a little, let's say officers get to share a
>double stateroom with hot-bunking (1 per 4 officers) and crew are in
>16-person bunkrooms, again with hot-bunking (1 per 32 crew).

If I have the room, I avoid hotbunking.  These ships deploy for extremely 
long periods - years in some cases - and having a place that you can call 
your own is important.  Also, do you want to hotbunk with a Vargr?

>Introduce this as standard design policy for warships and think how
>much extra volume for weapons and powerplants will be freed up!

One thing I've done in the past is place crew sections throughout the ship.

>(Of course the crews might grumble a little, but introduce a few of
>the disciplinary policies from the Age of Sail as well and they'll
>soon settle down...)

Ah. . . Rum,  Sodomy, and the Lash.  The three great traditions of the 
Royal Navy.  :)

--

Duugirashir Irebamenagiin  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
Inquisitor Maximus, Reformed Canon Church of Sylea



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:15:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:15:35 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
References: <f8.201149a1.2a8f1e61@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D5E73F4.EDFF1BA2@mindspring.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> 
>  >> Near as I can figure, your position here is "Don't provoke the Zhodani"
> --
>  >> when they are the ones launching wars.  I just don't buy it.
>  >
>  >Well, within the FFW game the reason for not provoking the Zhodani by
> attacking
>  >behind the lines is because you hit this impenetrable border called 'the
> edge
>  >of the map'
> 
> Now that, I buy.
> 
> It's easy to forget that Traveller is an RPG about traders and mercs, not
> trade and
> war.
> 
>  >The main reason the Imperium doesn't launch
>  >similar raids into nearby Consulate worlds is that historically they've
> never
>  >really had the forces available to do so.
> 
> Well I'd like to know why.  

Zho mind rapers can make you do things, things you'd rather not do.
						-Sgt. Theophilus SavageIM, 1109

> I sat down and built the best ships I could from
> an AE world, and then the best I could from an AF world.  It takes 3 AE
> world's fleets to seriously challenge and AF world's fleet in a stand-up
> battle, and even then the AF world still wins.  The Imperium may have other
> obligations elsewhere, but I would think the Zhodani do to, and when I look
> at the number of AF worlds in the Imperium I have to wonder just what is
> going on that the Zhodani are able to concentrate such forces in Cronor while
> the Imperium in effect sits on its hands.  If a fleet were constructed from
> just six AF worlds (a small portion of what the Imperium has available to it
> even just in Vland, an inboard sector with no borders needing defense) 

Aren't the Vargar Corsairs just across the subsector border in The
Windhorn sector? IDR exactly when they made it around the horn. Sometime
during the Ziru Sirka? Wasn't the flaming eye a symbol of Vargar
raiders?

> and
> that fleet was parked in orbit above Cronor then the Zhodani would have to
> muster the resources of at least two entire sectors, and probably three, just
> to challenge it.  And that's not even counting what the Spinward Marches
> themselves could contribute.
> 
> But, again, it's just an RPG.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute.
That's relativity.
                               -Albert Einstein

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:16:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:16:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Damned Silly Questions
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020817180723.00ae6c10@minn.net>

I sorry about having to send this message again. For some reason the first
transmission had not appeared in my mail box as of this time.

I need to name a TIGRESS class dreadnought for parts 5 and 6 of Friends in
High Places.

Is there a feminine form of TOMCAT? If so, what is it?

Thanks in advance.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:18:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:18:28 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <200208172310.MZP01689@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry says
>Tell me, if I came up to you and insisted that Sweden was a 
>threat to our way of life, what would you say?

The US seems to think that way about Iraq.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:20:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (allensh)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:20:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Testing
In-Reply-To: <lfltluk0rocq2fhglkaq24jvjemv56mupr@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020817231228.88477.qmail@web13902.mail.yahoo.com>

just seeing if my mail will get through.

Allen

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
In-Reply-To: <15d.12a5e9bb.2a8f1a1c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFGENBDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

Sorry I should have expanded that comment - a few hours before reading
Doug's comment I had prowled the WotC D&D message boards archives and I
watched a HUGE Flame war over this particular issue.  People raving about
3rd Ed being better than 2nd Ed as it DIDN'T have such a comment.  Awesome,
it flew for days and took over most of the threads.

Anyway I've always considered any game to be a set of guidelines from which
I introduce house rules etc.  I just like it when the writers also accept
(and promote it) like Traveller does.

Roleplaying games are an excuse to enjoy yourself and stretch your
imagination to the utmost.  Any writer or player who does not approve of
players using their imaginations is missing the point.

Anyway rant over;

Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the
shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser
gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to
die." Replicant Roy Batty (Rutger Haur) Blade Runner

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of GDWGAMES@aol.com
> Sent: 17 August 2002 04:17
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] Re: OTU is out of wack.
>
>
> >Nice to see this comment from a published author.
>
> It expresses a sentiment held by Marc Miller, Frank Chadwick, and myself.
>
> LKW
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:24:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:24:08 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <20020816233848.47253.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFCENBDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

That's even more worrying for my players; I think I'll spring this on them
tomorrow and see how they react :)

Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.
I need to remember details like that, until we get to know each other
better.  Some men get so nervous if a lady shows up at the restaurant with a
box of explosives. - Florence, www.purrsia.com/Freefall , 7th Dec 2001

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Glenn M. Goffin
> Sent: 17 August 2002 00:39
> To: a a tml Tod
> Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
>
>
> >From: "Peter Scarrott" <peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
>
> >To bring this On Topic I saved these messages to give to my players
> >as alien contact guides.  You guys are the same species as us, speak
> >the same language and belong to the same (general) society and yet
> >the following messages make no sense to me whatsoever.
>
> they don't make no sense t'me neither and I live on the same
> continent as one, same region as the other
>
> --Glenn
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
> http://www.hotjobs.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:25:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Nick Wright)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:25:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Motown Keyboard Kill
Message-ID: <002801c245fd$db733c40$10cc87d9@fg>

>Nick Wright wrote :
>> Frankie (Munden) wrote:
>>
>> "I know Loren, Martin and John,    ...."
>>
>> Keyboard Kill, Sir.
>
>I have to admit that this kill was completely unintended.
>So unintended, in fact, that I still don't get it.
>Can you let me in on the joke, please?
>
>Frankie

Sorry to take so long to get back.  Abraham, Martin and John was indeed the
song I was thinking of but I couldn't get the Loren bit out of my head to
remember the real title.  Thank you Hal.  That's the trouble with a keyboard
kill, the aftershocks are dangerous too.

I remain, etc, etc.

Nick Wright




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:26:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dane Nattrass)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:26:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <3d5e36c8.6019642@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020817215311.022d7bc0@192.168.0.1>

(Of course the crews might grumble a little, but introduce a few of
the disciplinary policies from the Age of Sail as well and they'll
soon settle down...)

KEEL HAUL THAT ENLIST MR OUTISE, AND DON'T BE SHABBY ABOUT IT!
As for the other 15 they can watch, then clean off the hull with 
toothbrushes after we come out of jumpspace.
;)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Do I have to Yahoo! ?
In-Reply-To: <000c01c23f32$9edea020$c9c4d63f@customer>
Message-ID: <000001c24646$869a4f30$6401a8c0@GOCA>

Awe shit...  I subscribed to the group thinking this was sent to me..:)
I don't mind being in the group as long as its ok (apparently the offer
was NOT sent to me but John).

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of John Scarlett
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 16:24
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Do I have to Yahoo! ?

Could someone tell me if it is necessary to follow these instructions to
subscribe to The JTAS

John Scarlett

Hello jlscarlett@earthlink.net,

We have received your request to join the JTAS
group hosted by Yahoo! Groups, a free, easy-to-use community service.

This request will expire in 21 days.

TO BECOME A MEMBER OF THE GROUP:

1) Go to the Yahoo! Groups site by clicking on this link:


http://groups.yahoo.com/i?i=abztGutj6OteVF9ZVJaJNO_whCU&e=jlscarlett%40e
arth
link%2Enet

  (If clicking doesn't work, "Cut" and "Paste" the line above into your
   Web browser's address bar.)

-OR-

2) REPLY to this email by clicking "Reply" and then "Send"
   in your email program

If you did not request, or do not want, a membership in the
JTAS group, please accept our apologies
and ignore this message.

Regards,

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_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:34:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:34:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Ping
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEJIINAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Pingy pingy pong pong 

________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Damned Silly Questions
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020817113835.007bb100@minn.net>

I sorry about having to send this message again. For some reason the first
transmission had not appeared in my mail box as of this time.

I need to name a TIGRESS class dreadnought for parts 5 and 6 of Friends in
High Places.

Is there a feminine form of tomcat? If so, what is it?

Thanks in advance.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:44:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:44:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <3d5e36c8.6019642@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEGCEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

As someone who spent the good part of 20 years aboard modern naval vessels I
say keel haulin' is too good for anyone who suggests the use of bunkrooms on
Imperial Naval vessels.

Quite aside from my personal feelings, canon clearly states that staterooms
are the norm. I have no problem with stretching that out to 4 person
staterooms for military ratings and Marines. Since the rule of thumb is
one-half of a stateroom module space is in things like passageways and
common lounges, that would give each sophonts in a 4 person stateroom an
area seven feet long by four feet wide by nine feet high (this includes the
area between decks where gravity plates, power lines and life support are
installed.)  This is a reasonable space for a bunk and a storage locker.
Stack the bunks two high and you have enough room for a table or couch. I'd
put four such rooms around a fresher and allow the inhabitants to share it.

Put 16 people in the same 4 dton space and each sophonts gets less than 125
cuft. This subtracts the 2 feet space between decks and assumes the 54 sq ft
that the space should take up (using the standard area given in GT for dton
to deck space conversion. Basically you stack them three high and give just
enough space between bunks to walk, sideways. (The U.S. Navy requires 27 in
between accessible sides of bunks and a solid joiner wall between bunks.)

Unlike the plans in GT:Ground Forces there would be no space left for either
messing facilities or freshers. If you account for this space separately, as
should be done, you need to add a hall (10 spaces) per 700 persons for
messing. This assumes messing for 15% of crew. (Each hall seating 100 for
eating.)

I'm not sure how much room is necessary for freshers. The Navy requires one
water closet per 25 males and 3 urinals per 45 males. Females rate an equal
number of WC's plus a WC for each urinal required for male troops. They also
get 1 sink station per 20 crewmembers and 1 shower per 25 crewmembers. Each
sink station must be at least 24 in by 36 in with an accommodation space of
36 in. Each shower is 30 by 30 in with an accommodation area adjacent of
unspecified size, but my experience is that 36 in is common. Each WC must be
30 in wide by 21 in deep.

These number are from:

http://habitability.net/bbdata/9640a1.pdf

Which is the Navy habitability instruction. If you check the tables for
stateroom size you will see that Traveller staterooms, even with 50% of the
space relegated to other uses, are still larger than the staterooms used by
today's military forces. I don't know how the spaces compare to civilian
staterooms, as used by commercial seamen, or cabins on passenger vessels,
like a liner.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Stephen Tempest
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2002 8:10 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation

I've noticed a disturbing trend among some starship designers to give
luxury accommodation to the ship's crew.  Even individual staterooms
for each rating are not considered extravagant.

Frankly, I think this mollycoddling and pampering will be fatal to the
morale of His Imperial Majesty's navy.

I've come to this conclusion after doing some reading on shipboard
life during the Age of Sail (which we all know Trav is partially based
on).  On a typical 74-gun ship of the line:

Senior officers had 8' square cabins, with a deck height of 6'.  That
makes about 10 square metres per officer:  or a single 4-ton standard
stateroom per 5 officers.

The crew of 500 were accommodated in an area of about 6000 square
feet.  Assuming the same deck height, that makes 1000 cubic metres or
2 cu.m per man.  One 4-ton stateroom per 28 people.

Of course, when the ship was at sea the crew would be observing
watches, so only half the crew would be asleep at one time, and they'd
have effectively twice the amount of space.  In Traveller terms, that
would equate to hot-bunking.

It's also worth pointing out that this accommodation wasn't only for
short periods:  many sailers would spend 4-5 years on shipboard before
they ever set foot on land again.

So, simplifying things a little, let's say officers get to share a
double stateroom with hot-bunking (1 per 4 officers) and crew are in
16-person bunkrooms, again with hot-bunking (1 per 32 crew).

Introduce this as standard design policy for warships and think how
much extra volume for weapons and powerplants will be freed up!

(Of course the crews might grumble a little, but introduce a few of
the disciplinary policies from the Age of Sail as well and they'll
soon settle down...)

Stephen

www.stempest.demon.co.uk/traveller/
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TML online
Message-ID: <B9842E6F.6A106%listmom@travellercentral.com>

As many of you probably notices, the TML was offline from about 5Am to 3PM
today.  This was due to an outage at our DSL provider (Verizon).

We are back online and mail is catching up.

-- 
listmom@travellercentral.com
for list information see
http://lists.travellercentral.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <20020817231435.11006.44766.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentr
 al.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020817164753.00b88008@mailhost.efn.org>

On Sat, 17 Aug 2002 09:48:16 -0700, Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> 
wrote:

>I pulled that in a modern-day CORPS game.  With five seconds left on the
>clock, I called out "BOOM!"  When the players complained about there still
>being time on the clock, i told them "You are dealing with an insane
>bomber, and you expect him to be honest with his timepieces?

One of my favorites from the Evil Overlord List:

"15. I will never employ any device with a digital countdown. If I find 
that such a device is absolutely unavoidable, I will set it to activate 
when the counter reaches 117 and the hero is just putting his plan into 
operation."


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <3D5E795F.ADC2DCBF@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEGDEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

One thing that is often forgotten, or at least not mentioned in Traveller is
the "sea" cabin. This is equivalent to Star Trek's ready room. It is a cabin
for the commanding officer (and on ships with an embarked staff the Admiral
and General each have one too near the tactical center) so that when the
situation is tense and the C.O. must be immediately available they can be
near the bridge without having to be "on" the bridge at all times. This
allows the captain someplace to take his shoes off and nap without having to
go half the vessel's length away to his luxurious quarters.

IN GT you could use the cabin usually reserved for non-jump ships, since the
50% of passageway/service space is already accounted for in the captain's
regular quarters.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of alan spik
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2002 12:27 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Naval crew accommodation

Stephen Tempest wrote:
>
> I've noticed a disturbing trend among some starship designers to give
> luxury accommodation to the ship's crew.  Even individual staterooms
> for each rating are not considered extravagant.
>
> Frankly, I think this mollycoddling and pampering will be fatal to the
> morale of His Imperial Majesty's navy.
>
> I've come to this conclusion after doing some reading on shipboard
> life during the Age of Sail (which we all know Trav is partially based
> on).  On a typical 74-gun ship of the line:
>
> Senior officers had 8' square cabins, with a deck height of 6'.  That
> makes about 10 square metres per officer:  or a single 4-ton standard
> stateroom per 5 officers.
>
> The crew of 500 were accommodated in an area of about 6000 square
> feet.  Assuming the same deck height, that makes 1000 cubic metres or
> 2 cu.m per man.  One 4-ton stateroom per 28 people.
>
> Of course, when the ship was at sea the crew would be observing
> watches, so only half the crew would be asleep at one time, and they'd
> have effectively twice the amount of space.  In Traveller terms, that
> would equate to hot-bunking.
>
> It's also worth pointing out that this accommodation wasn't only for
> short periods:  many sailers would spend 4-5 years on shipboard before
> they ever set foot on land again.
>
> So, simplifying things a little, let's say officers get to share a
> double stateroom with hot-bunking (1 per 4 officers) and crew are in
> 16-person bunkrooms, again with hot-bunking (1 per 32 crew).
>
> Introduce this as standard design policy for warships and think how
> much extra volume for weapons and powerplants will be freed up!
>
> (Of course the crews might grumble a little, but introduce a few of
> the disciplinary policies from the Age of Sail as well and they'll
> soon settle down...)
>
> Stephen
>

I think that would be a little harsh.
IMMTU
On small ships the CO gets an individual small stateroom. Sr officers
may also get one. Jr. Officers and Sr. enlisted will usually bunk two
per small stateroom. Jr enlisted are in bunks.
On larger ships the CO gets an individual stateroom, possibly a luxury
stateroom. These might also be available for Sr. officers and staff of
an admiral. Jr officers and Sr. enlisted double or triple up in
staterooms or may have individual small staterooms. Jr enlisted are in
bunks.
No hot bunking except in emergencies.
These may change because of mission requirements. I have one class of
frigates for the 100th fleet with everyone but the CO in bunks. Of
course its J3 M6 and heavily armed with a PA bay and the Whipsnade
configurable turrets.

Thanks again for the missile tactic, unknown tactician. This ship was
inadvertently built for it.
IMLE that's the way the US navy worked and if it was good enough for me
its good enough for my descendants.
YMMV.

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute.
That's relativity.
                               -Albert Einstein
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 18:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 17 17:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <200208172310.MZP01689@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817164632.009f2420@mindspring.com>

At 07:10 PM 8/17/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry says
> >Tell me, if I came up to you and insisted that Sweden was a
> >threat to our way of life, what would you say?
>
>The US seems to think that way about Iraq.

Don't get me started.  :)

But our last war with Iraq was 11 years ago.  When was the last time that 
Sweden swept down on anyone?

-- 

Douglas E. Berry   gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Cry "CHEEBLE!" and let slip the hamsters of war!



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 18:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 17 17:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Victory in the Frontier Wars
In-Reply-To: <14c.129326ec.2a8fa9d6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817165042.009f4520@mindspring.com>

At 09:29 AM 8/17/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Well, All I can suggest is that you buy at least one. I'm sure Doug will
>agree.

Oh, yes.  And buy Outrim Void when it comes out, and the Super-Secret Next 
Book that I'm trying to do after that one.

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 18:04:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 17 17:04:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Victory in the Frontier Wars
Message-ID: <11c.15920c1c.2a8fb3e3@aol.com>

In einer eMail vom 17.08.02 01:26:19 (MEZ) - Mitteleurop. Sommerzeit schreib=
t=20
tml-request@travellercentral.com:


> But there is.  Zhodane is technologically inferior to the Imperium.  I've=20
> looked over the maps at Traveller Central.  If they are canon or anything=20
> near it, then the Imperials heavily outweigh the Zhodani, to put it mildly=
.=20
> =20
> Yet the Zhodani are on a 500 year four war winning streak.  There's=20
> something=20
> wrong with this picture, and I think that this appeal to passivity is part=
=20
> of=20
> it.
>=20

Just for the record: *Zhodane* - the world - is *not* technologically=20
inferior to the Imperium. It is one of very few TL F worlds in the Consulate=
.
Furthermore: The Zhodani, in Book 8 IIRC are said to have partial TL 15=20
capacity. It also says that their military robots are more advanced than=20
their civilian equipment.

As for the Imperium outweighing the Zhodani: That would only matter in a=20
full-blown total war, not in the small border skirmishes the FW are. In such=
=20
an event however, the Imperium could hardly comitt its entire might against=20
the Zhodani, because it is surrounded by other interstellar communities that=
=20
range from neutral, but unpredictable (Aslan) to outright hostile (Solomani)=
.
The FW=B4s are somewhat similar to cold-war era substitute wars: A limited=20
military endeavour (as opposed to total war), with an understanding from bot=
h=20
sides that it=B4s not going above a certain level.

Regards,

Tobias


--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/html
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 18:05:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 17 17:05:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Zhodani Frontier War Philosophy
Message-ID: <129.1601cd04.2a903e6b@aol.com>

 >>But there is.  Zhodane is technologically inferior to the Imperium.  I've 
 >>looked over the maps at Traveller Central.  If they are canon or anything 
 >>near it, then the Imperials heavily outweigh the Zhodani, to put it 
mildly.  
 >>Yet the Zhodani are on a 500 year four war winning streak.  There's 
something 
 >>wrong with this picture, and I think that this appeal to passivity is part 
of 
 >>it.
 >
 >Remember that along with psionics, the Zhodani will naturally be masters of
 >pshrinkology.  Fred Ramen, in his novella _The_Hostile_Stars_ (Available in
 >Raconteur's Rest at Freelance Traveller), suggests that the Zhodani _don't_
 >'play to win', but to keep the Imperium uncertain, and guessing.  That may
 >be a reasonable thought; they don't want to end up dominated or absorbed by
 >the Imperium, so their objective is to keep the Imperium off-balance or
 >uncertain enough to prevent them from getting organized for a push against
 >the Zhodani directly, or from extending their holdings in the area and thus
 >dominating them that way.

I just happened to stumble across that story last night.  Pretty good.  But I 
find it hard to believe they could influence enough of the Imperium to make 
that much of a difference.

Call me uninfluenced.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 18:16:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 17 17:16:46 2002
Subject: [TML] 2d6 bell curve
Message-ID: <188.c9b1b93.2a904127@aol.com>

 >Are percetages below correct?
 > 
 >Roll    Chances
 >2         1 in 36    02.77%
 >3         2 in 36    08.33%
 >4         3 in 36    16.66%
 >5         4 in 36    27.77%
 >6         5 in 36    41.66%
 >7         6 in 36    58.33%
 >8         5 in 36    41.66%
 >9         4 in 36    27.77%
 >10       3 in 36    16.66%
 >11       2 in 36    08.33%
 >12       1 in 36    02.77%

No.
Roll    Chance    Percentage
  2      1/36        .027777
  3      2/36        .055555
  4      3/36        .083333
  5      4/36        .111111
  6      5/36        .138888
  7      6/36        .166666
  8      5/36        .138888
  9      4/36        .111111
 10     3/36        .083333
 11     2/36        .055555
 12     1/36        .277777

Observe that this is not a bell curve at all, but a pyramid.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 18:18:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat Aug 17 17:18:04 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020815232702.009f7280@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNOEGEEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

Sorry Doug, but information now available from China indicates that the
Chinese would have entered the war despite anything Mac did. The very fact
that there were American troops in Korea was enough to insure their
intervention.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 2:29 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets

At 08:24 PM 8/15/02 -0400, you wrote:
> >Remember MacArthur!
>
>Indeed, that is exactly who I was thinking of.  And if North Korea ever
uses
>a nuclear weapon anywhere on us or South Korea there will be a lot of
>recrimination regarding his dismissal for insubordination.

It's been 49 years.  The Korean War would have ended in 1951 had Mac
listened to his orders and stopped short of the Yalu.  But no, Dugout Doug
had to threaten Mao and provoke a massive attack.  After the Chinese came
in, there was no hope of dismantling the DPRK.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 18:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sparky)
Date: Sat Aug 17 17:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
References: <ML-2.3.1029434651.2754.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <00af01c2464d$376c8480$67e84242@upstairs>

I'm a little behind schedule here and I'm sure most everyone is bored to
tears over this thread...so I'll ask just one more question and then
I'll drop it. I promise.

Anthony said this:
(and, in fact, the conventional understanding of electron shells is as
standing waves about a nucleus).

and then said this:
there's such a thing as a standing wave.

I'm a llittle confused about this contradiction.

Thanks to all who've patiently answered my questions!
Sparky




----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Jackson" <ajackson@iii.com>
> Well, you can create perfectly acceptable diffraction patterns with
electrons
> (and, in fact, the conventional understanding of electron shells is as
standing
> waves about a nucleus). With larger objects it rapidly becomes
difficult to
> demonstrate the wave patterns because the wavelengths are very short.
> >
> > I tend to imagine waves as being always "in-motion"
>
> No, there's such a thing as a standing wave.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 18:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat Aug 17 17:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <200208172310.MZP01689@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEGFEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

This discussion seems to assume that the Consulate is smaller than the
Imperium. I don't think that is true. I'm not sure how far it extends
Spinward, but areas explored by the Consulate go very far coreward. Since
they are supporting exploration in this direction and considering the
logistics necessary for such travel they must have worlds extending very
deeply toward the rim. It seems to me that the Consolate must cover many
more sectors than the Imperium.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 18:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug 17 17:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <20020817041418.74310.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020817041418.74310.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <m3lm75ftv9.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> > I understood it, but I don't understand it, if you follow me.
> 
> Oh come on guys.  The man has done something that only
> three other men have done in the history of the game. 

[snip]

> Surely that doesn't escape notice and at least a little awe and
> respect.

That's the thing: it's just a game.  And it's not even one which
requires much intelligence.  Swing the bat, hit the ball, catch the
ball, throw the ball--these are skills we could teach to chimps
(although not, alas, to me--cursd eyes).

I don't understand the fascination with spectator sports.  Sure, I've
read the psychological explanations thereof, but I simply cannot
relate.  It's one thing to play a sport and be proud of one's
performance; it's another entirely to derive some amount of self-worth
from the fact that one's townsman (who was almost certainly imported)
performs well.

Don't even get me started about how my taxes pay for a _business's_
premises.

All that said, it does reserve a certain amount of respect.  The man
has certainly achieved _something_ (staying in the game long enough to
get to a certain number of home runs).

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The only freedom which deserves the name is that of pursuing our own
good, in our own way, so long as we do not attempt to deprive others of
theirs, or impede their efforts to obtain it.        --John Stuart Mill

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 18:32:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug 17 17:32:01 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <16b.124568c1.2a8f29fe@aol.com>
References: <16b.124568c1.2a8f29fe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3hehtfts5.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
> 
> As everyone will recall, it is the Zhodani that are already starting
> wars that nobody wants.

It seems to me, then, that the Imperium would want a buffer zone still
more.  Soemthing to insulate it from Zhodani depradations.  Why not
pull the buffer from Zho territory rather than Imperial?

That this hasn't happened tells me that the Imperials have lost.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
If something's expensive to develop, and somebody's not going to get
paid, it won't get developed.  So you decide: Do you want software to be
written, or not?     --Bill Gates doesn't foresee the FSF or Linux, 1980

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 18:32:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug 17 17:32:58 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFOENBDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
References: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFOENBDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
Message-ID: <m3lm75t3fa.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Peter Scarrott" <peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
>
> All kidding aside I am truly baffled.  I take it on faith that
> someone (Barry Bonds I guess) has achieved an impressive sporting
> milestone, for which I congratulate him, but I still don't have the
> faintest idea what the conversation was about.

He exceeded some heretofore unexceeded number of home runs.  A home
run is when in baseball one is able to hit the ball and run around the
diamond (square-shaped baseball track) back to home plate (the spot
from which one hits the ball) without having to stop.  It's accounted
a Good Thing.

Baseball's a fairly simple game.  The `pitcher' stands in the centre
of the diamond, the `batter' at home plate, and members of the
pitcher's team at first, second and third base (the remaining points
on the diamond, numbered anti-clockwise from home plate).  Runners, of
the batter's team, may be on base.  The pitcher pitches (throws) a
ball towards the batter, who may either `foul,' `strike' or `hit.'  A
foul is essentially when the ball flies outside of the angle formed by
third-home-first.  A strike is when the batter misses the ball--three
of these and he is out; three outs and the teams switch sides.  A hit
is when the batter hits the ball.

As soon as he's hit the ball, he starts running; his goal is to get to
home plate.  However, if he is tagged with the ball (or if the ball is
plucked from the air by an opposing player), then he is out.  He is
safe, though, if he makes it to a base.  So he may run to first base,
and then decide that the opposing players are too close with the ball,
or to second, or to third, or all the way to home.  Only one player
may be on a base at one time AFAIK.

If the hitter hits the ball and doesn't stop, but runs clear 'round
the diamond and back to home plate, it's called a home run.

Each hitter to cross home scores one point for his team.  Each team
plays offence and defence once in an inning (the two halves are
referred to as the top and the bottom for first and second, resp.).

The sport is referred to as `America's past-time,' although I'm not
certain why, as football (i.e. American-rules rugby) and basketball
seem more popular.  True football (known here as soccer) is becoming
ever-more popular, but does not approach the traditional triad.
Hockey has become incredibly popular, rivalling if not exceeding
baseball.

The game also lends itself to a scoring system common among pubescent
boys, where each base indicates getting to a certain point with a
girl.  A home run is the obvious, while each of the bases is something
less, in order.  The exact assignment of act to base varies.

It's rather embarrassing that I know all that.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The fact that we have bodies is the oldest joke there is.  --C.S. Lewis

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 18:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Sat Aug 17 17:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Damned Silly Questions
In-Reply-To: <20020818001804.18620.13398.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentr
 al.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020817173300.00b39e08@mailhost.efn.org>

Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net> asked:

>I need to name a TIGRESS class dreadnought for parts 5 and 6 of Friends in
>High Places.
>
>Is there a feminine form of TOMCAT? If so, what is it?

Queen.

No, I'm not kidding.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 18:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug 17 17:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817092651.009de420@mindspring.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817092651.009de420@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m3hehtt33p.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
> 
> 4.5 wars in 500+ years.  By your logic we should *immediately* nuke
> Germany.  They've started two devastating wars in the last 100
> years.  Remember that to the average Imperial citizen before 1107,
> the Frontier Wars were either history or that joke of a war that
> happened 20 years ago.

But history moves more slowly in Traveller than it does IRL.  Just as
a rule of thumb, let's assume that the one-week travel time is
equivalent to the time it'd take to cross two average modern US
states--for the sake of argument, let's assume that's six hours.  That
means that time and travel in the Imperium are slowed down by a factor
of 1/28, s.t. those 500 years are about 18 years.

And if Mexico had invaded & freed several counties of Texas, New
Mexico & Arizona five times in the last twenty years, I'm fairly
certain that we'd be contemplating elimination of the problem.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Very often many things are said by the Holy Scriptures and in it many
names are used not in a literal sense...those who have minds
understand this.                      --St. Isaac the Syrian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 18:38:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug 17 17:38:08 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817164632.009f2420@mindspring.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817164632.009f2420@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m3d6sht31j.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
> 
> But our last war with Iraq was 11 years ago.  When was the last time
> that Sweden swept down on anyone?

When's the next time it's _likely_ to?  When's the next time the Zhos
are likely to sweep down, kill great gobs of people and push the
Imperium further out?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
1 Bryant (B) = 4577 books;        1 Habryant = 2289 books
1 Sitter (or Rhoom) = 1104 books; 1 Dinky = 161 books
1 Wallshel = 23 books;            1 Bedside = 17 books

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 18:39:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat Aug 17 17:39:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Zhodani Frontier War Philosophy
In-Reply-To: <129.1601cd04.2a903e6b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEGGEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

Could it be possible that the Zhodani are playing a waiting game? They might
assume that eventually natural evolution will cause psionics to become a
large enough percentage of the Imperium's population to force a reversal of
the Imperium's policy on psionics. (After all psionics weren't always
banned.)

The west played that game with the Soviets.

Maybe the Zhodani are waiting for that to happen. Remember in the TNE
universe the Consulate and the Regency became allies eventually.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Flykiller@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2002 8:04 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Zhodani Frontier War Philosophy

 >>But there is.  Zhodane is technologically inferior to the Imperium.  I've
 >>looked over the maps at Traveller Central.  If they are canon or anything
 >>near it, then the Imperials heavily outweigh the Zhodani, to put it
mildly.
 >>Yet the Zhodani are on a 500 year four war winning streak.  There's
something
 >>wrong with this picture, and I think that this appeal to passivity is
part
of
 >>it.
 >
 >Remember that along with psionics, the Zhodani will naturally be masters
of
 >pshrinkology.  Fred Ramen, in his novella _The_Hostile_Stars_ (Available
in
 >Raconteur's Rest at Freelance Traveller), suggests that the Zhodani
_don't_
 >'play to win', but to keep the Imperium uncertain, and guessing.  That may
 >be a reasonable thought; they don't want to end up dominated or absorbed
by
 >the Imperium, so their objective is to keep the Imperium off-balance or
 >uncertain enough to prevent them from getting organized for a push against
 >the Zhodani directly, or from extending their holdings in the area and
thus
 >dominating them that way.

I just happened to stumble across that story last night.  Pretty good.  But
I
find it hard to believe they could influence enough of the Imperium to make
that much of a difference.

Call me uninfluenced.
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 18:40:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Sat Aug 17 17:40:14 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEGFEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFGENIDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

To expand on someone else's earlier comment (sorry hit 'delete' too fast),
the Consulate's main advantage is not having a large Empire on any of it's
other borders (ISTR).  Of all the large interstellar governments we know
about the Imperium is the only one with more than one major neighbour.  This
would allow it to concentrate a sizeable proportion of its armed forces
against any Imperial attack; the Imperium can't reply in kind due to the
necessity of keeping large forces against the Aslan, Solomani and too a
lesser extent, against the Hivers, K'Kree and Vargr.  The Zhodani also
benefit by having much easier lines of communication to their deep strategic
reserves than the Imperium.


> -----Original Message-----
> On Behalf Of Terry Carlino
> Sent: 18 August 2002 01:22
>
> This discussion seems to assume that the Consulate is smaller than the
> Imperium. I don't think that is true. I'm not sure how far it extends
> Spinward, but areas explored by the Consulate go very far coreward. Since
> they are supporting exploration in this direction and considering the
> logistics necessary for such travel they must have worlds extending very
> deeply toward the rim. It seems to me that the Consolate must cover many
> more sectors than the Imperium.

Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.
I need to remember details like that, until we get to know each other
better.  Some men get so nervous if a lady shows up at the restaurant with a
box of explosives. - Florence, www.purrsia.com/Freefall , 7th Dec 2001


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 18:42:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 17 17:42:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <10e.15e11710.2a904728@aol.com>

 >You seem to be quite single-minded on the subject.

As do you, keeping the Imperium passive and defensive.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 18:43:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sat Aug 17 17:43:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Zhodani tech development (Was: Victory in the Frontier Wars)
In-Reply-To: <20020816065538.21971.85556.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208180220230.16440-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
>>Well, the Zhodani may not have been technologically inferior for all that
>>long. They were less affected by the long night, and might have actually
>>been on average higher-tech in the early wars.
>
>(Did the Zhodani experience a Long Night?)

No. At some point around -1000 they just decided to put a moratotium on
further expansion while they consolidated their present holdings. Since
then they haven't expanded much. Just why it would take them more than
2000 years to consolidate is not explained anywhere.

They had at least TL 12 at some point during the Long Night (Gvurrdon the
eponymous Vargr hero steals a jump-3 ship from them). There's no evidence
that they were higher than that, and personally I doubt that they've been
ahead of the Imperium much. OTOH I doubt that they've been far behind them
either.


Hans



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 18:45:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 17 17:45:46 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEGFEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <200208172310.MZP01689@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817174119.009e28e0@mindspring.com>

At 08:22 PM 8/17/02 -0400, you wrote:
>This discussion seems to assume that the Consulate is smaller than the
>Imperium. I don't think that is true. I'm not sure how far it extends
>Spinward, but areas explored by the Consulate go very far coreward. Since
>they are supporting exploration in this direction and considering the
>logistics necessary for such travel they must have worlds extending very
>deeply toward the rim. It seems to me that the Consolate must cover many
>more sectors than the Imperium.

According the canon, the Consulate is smaller than the Imperium, covering 
about ten sectors all told.


--

Duugirashir Irebamenagiin  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
Inquisitor Maximus, Reformed Canon Church of Sylea



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 18:47:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sat Aug 17 17:47:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Damned Silly Questions
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020817173300.00b39e08@mailhost.efn.org>
References: <20020818001804.18620.13398.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentr al.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020817194712.007994d0@minn.net>

At 05:33 PM 8/17/2002 -0700, Kelly St.Clair wrote:
>Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net> asked:
>
>>I need to name a TIGRESS class dreadnought for parts 5 and 6 of Friends in
>>High Places.
>>
>>Is there a feminine form of TOMCAT? If so, what is it?
>
>Queen.
>
>No, I'm not kidding.

Hmmm...that's not going to work.

There's an in-joke involved here.


Les


==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 18:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug 17 17:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Zhodani Frontier War Philosophy
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEGGEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEGGEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <m38z35t2ks.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Terry Carlino" <carlino@cox.net> writes:
>
> Could it be possible that the Zhodani are playing a waiting game?
> They might assume that eventually natural evolution will cause
> psionics to become a large enough percentage of the Imperium's
> population to force a reversal of the Imperium's policy on psionics
> (after all psionics weren't always banned).

That raises the whole issue of the Imperium's outlook on psionics.
I'm not certain that it makes a whole lot of sense, to tell the truth,
esp. when there's a violent neighbour who uses them.  We didn't stop
make nukes just because they were dangerous (although there were
plenty of halfwits who argued for it); why would the Imperium not
utilise psionically-apt individuals?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The betterment of fools, Goethe tells us, is the appropriate business of
other fools.  The Underground Grammarian does not seek to educate
anyone.  We intend rather to ridicule, humiliate, and infuriate those
who abuse our language not so that they will do better but so that they
will stop using language entirely or at least go away.
                         --The Underground Grammarian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 18:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sat Aug 17 17:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Damned Silly Questions
In-Reply-To: <3D5D8AAD.4507.237C6E@localhost>
References: <a7.251d2f62.2a8db4d6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020817091336.00a8d100@minn.net>

I need to name a TIGRESS class dreadnought for parts 5 and 6 of Friends in
High Places.

Is there a feminine form of tomcat? If so, what is it?

Thanks in advance.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 18:52:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sat Aug 17 17:52:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Damned Silly Questions
In-Reply-To: <20020818001804.18620.13398.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020818001804.18620.13398.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <vkrtluons4f8hdvh02m2drekom5a471koj@4ax.com>

On Sat, 17 Aug 2002 17:18:04 -0700, Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net> wrote:

>I sorry about having to send this message again. For some reason the first
>transmission had not appeared in my mail box as of this time.

>I need to name a TIGRESS class dreadnought for parts 5 and 6 of Friends in
>High Places.

>Is there a feminine form of TOMCAT? If so, what is it?

Every reference I've seen calls them 'queens'.  Every reference anyone I've
asked has seen ditto.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 19:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 17 18:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Human Nature or 'WWRD' or 'WWAD'
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817090545.009eb100@mindspring.com>
References: <14prlukovr8b9uqj0u65dbd1sajo6rno6g@4ax.com>
 <20020816232302.6238.63480.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <14prlukovr8b9uqj0u65dbd1sajo6rno6g@4ax.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020817090545.009eb100@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <1828.208.28.190.37.1029632377.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

My question is:

Why would the Imperials have to wait?

First off, I'd construct a LOT of intelligence scout ships that wait on
the outskirts of Zhondani systems within jump distance of Imperial
borders.  These scouts would then act as trip wires as they watch for
massed fleet build ups.  If a system has only 24 system defense boats (all
likely trying to hunt down the scouts by the way) in it, and suddenly has
100 warships in it and needs to refuel for its push into Imperial
territory - wouldn't that be a sign for the Imperials to start moving over
to war alert status?





From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 19:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 17 18:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Tech Levelling
In-Reply-To: <lfltluk0rocq2fhglkaq24jvjemv56mupr@4ax.com>
References: <lfltluk0rocq2fhglkaq24jvjemv56mupr@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <1837.208.28.190.37.1029632962.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

A few comments to Make Jeff,
  For those smaller "electronic" goods, where 500 cubic feet of volume
  holds a lot of "goods", the $1,000 per ton is split amongst them all,
  not just one thing.
  Secondly - you are ignoring the concept that many of these worlds may
  have a limited infrastructure.  It is better to build *one*
  manufacturing plant making one widget, than to make many smaller
  factories making *all* of the goods you need.  In short, you are
  ignoring the tooling up costs, the training costs, and the other various
  infrastructure costs.  For example:

Computer:
CPU
Motherboard
Video Card
Drives
Screws
internal frame mounts
fans
wiring
external frame
external case for frame

Each of those items in turn, needs some form of "internal" support.  The
manufacture of say, coolant for the screw manufacture, lubricants for the
machines that work on the assembly of the computer and so on.

If you have a world that concentrates only on putting computers together,
while another world concentrates on making screws - each world would have
some benefit for trading with each other.

I'm not saying that fully populated worlds with billions of population
will go this route, but other worlds would.  Hell, even fully populated
worlds might trade with other Worlds because the cost of labor is
significantly lower.

  In all, I can't buy the idea that worlds of equal TL will contend with
  shipping costs that render trade that low of a possibility.  Granted,
  long distance shipping will be an issue, but anything reasonably short
  distance isn't going to be an issue.  Also, GURPS FAR TRADER doesn't
  assume that income for shipping 1 ton of goods costs the shipper $1,000.
   If I recall correctly, it was dropped to something on the order of
  about $700 give or take.

               Hal



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 19:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sat Aug 17 18:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Damned Silly Questions
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020817113835.007bb100@minn.net>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMELBINAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

I sorry about having to send this message again. For some reason the first
transmission had not appeared in my mail box as of this time.

I need to name a TIGRESS class dreadnought for parts 5 and 6 of Friends in
High Places.

Is there a feminine form of tomcat? If so, what is it?

Thanks in advance.


Les
>>>>>>>>>

You can call a cat anything you want, they still only pay 
attention when they want to.

jml
Seriously I have heard the term Queen 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 19:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sat Aug 17 18:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <ML-2.3.1029515927.4165.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3D5DCB63.2060408@usisp.com>

>
>
>
>In the real world, there's nothing equivalent to a traveller low-tech world;
>no-one (other than hobbyists) builds TL 4 ships, for example.  What you have
>are poor countries and rich countries.
>

oops.. I misinterpretted that last note.

    Lotsa countries build tech 4 ships. Go look in Hong Kong harbour to 
find some.
It is just that most large ships are built in countries with higher 
technology. The
companies that build those ships don't care where the money comes from. 
Populations
that can afford them, import them. After all,......money is low tech.

>
   






From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 19:18:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sat Aug 17 18:18:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <ML-2.3.1029515927.4165.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3D5DC954.9040808@usisp.com>

>
>
>>Tech levels should follow population, not starport availability. You 
>>have to have enough people to build technology to have it.
>>
>Not in a high trade Imperium.  You just have to be able to afford to import it,
>which probably means you have _some_ industries producing high value goods.
>
>In the real world, there's nothing equivalent to a traveller low-tech world;
>no-one (other than hobbyists) builds TL 4 ships, for example.  What you have
>are poor countries and rich countries.
>

    High value goods are not neccesarily high tech goods. Gold, 
lanthanum, diamonds, etc. are
still high value even if they are dug out with shovels. And shovels are 
low tech. An outside
corporation can 'lease' land for strip mining or other productive 
activity which gives the
local government cash to spend. Groats are low tech, but bring in cash 
for imports. Perhaps
the world is being bankrolled by another world for future considerations.
    While it is true that the afore mentioned corporation may bring in 
high tech equipment,
the rest of the world will still be unable to manufacture high-tech 
goods. The only high tech
on the world would be imports. If that makes a world high-tech and 
allows any high-tech
gear become easily available, then ALL worlds would be at Imperial 
levels. Right?
    It is my opinion that tech level should be a measure of what the 
world is capable of
manufacturing on its own without outside influence. Do not think a tech 
2 world is full
of guys running around on horses and swinging swords while worshipping 
traders
in chariots of the gods...they just haven't quite got around to building 
the infrastructure
needed to produce lasers or other goods yet. They probably will have 
that neato stuff......
just imported. This would be like Jerry Pournelle's Co-Dominium worlds. 
( Think
'King David's Spaceship' or Falkenberg's Legions)
    If one looks at tech levels in this way, then RW examples abound on 
earth. Brunei
is filthy rich yet cannot build its own stuff ( low-tech factories ), 
while some very
high tech countries ( America and Japan and Russia  et.al. ) are 
experiencing some
financial woes.

And what's wrong with tech4 ships......all worlds need some 'tall ships' 
on their seas.!





From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 19:19:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sat Aug 17 18:19:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockhead
Message-ID: <3D5EED34.1080100@usisp.com>

     It is my belief that the uwp could be improved upon. While it was
wonderful back in the late 70's , it seems lacking today. I am 
submitting my 'fixes' for peer review in the hopes that it can be 
improved further and that someone might find a use for them.
      I have tried to base my ideas on already established rules, but
used in different ways.Hopefully, this will allow these ideas to be 
integrated easily with printed materials. However,as I am basing these 
mods on assumptions different from the OTH, the worlds generated
may not be 100% compatible. There will be different political/economic
distributions with these mods.
     In the end, I did this in an attempt to mold the Traveller universe
to my expectations. I have always envisioned the universe to be like 
that described in 'Falkenberg's Legions', 'The Mote in God's Eye', and 
the adventures of Earl Demarest of Terra.

     My assumptions are:       1. Humans will settle on worlds that can
                                  support humans without needing filters 

                                  or sealed enviroments.
                               2. tech level represents level available
                                  on the world without resorting to
                                  outside trade ( manufacturing tech
                                  level) and anything higher will
                                  represent imports.
                               3. starport type is highest maintainable
                                  at manufacturing tech level ( imports
                                  not used to prop up facilities )

     All values tied to population, such as tech, starport, culture, etc.
can of course be modified
normally with 'Pocket Empires' rules. All trade and political actions
follow those rules. This
is meant to provide a consistantly changing background for rpg
adventures. Ideally, several
worlds would be administered to form a web of treaties and trade for
pc's to play in.

     All worlds will be placed in habitable zone.

     size=2d6                  a larger world in hab. zone should be more
                               earth-like.
     atm=2d6-7+size            atm pressure follows gravity ( size
                               indirectly )
     hyd%=2d6-7+atm            atm pressure prevents liquids from boiling
                               off into space
     pop=2d6+dm's              hostile worlds will have smaller
                               populations while habitable worlds will
                               have larger populations than before.

     pop      dm= -int(abs((atm-6)/1.5))   or   -1 for taint,
                                                -1 per step away from std
              dm= -int(abs((hyd-6)/2.5))

    gov=2d6-7+pop              Nothing is changed for these two steps. 

    law=2d6-7+gov

     Now, the social profile needs to be determined. This is  as
described in either 'World Builder's
Handbook' or 'Pocket Empires'. The only difference between the two is
that 'Pocket Empires' adds
some dm's based on culture. Once this is done, tech level can be
determined.

     tech= 1d6+dm's+(pop-6)      The population modifier represents the
                                 people neccesary to maintain a certain
                                 level of technology.

  +2		 +1	          0                  -1

radical          progressive      conservative        reactionary
enterprising     advancing        indifferent         stagnant
expansionist     competetive      unaggressive        passive
fragmented       discordant       harmonious          monolithic
militant         neutral          peacable            concilliatory

     +1 if subsector is mature
     -1 if subsector is frontier

     These dm's are based on the assumption that military needs drive
research and technology. This seems to be how the real world acts as 
most advances have been during war; this includes cold war.
The other driver of technology is the desire for bigger profits. Lower
dm's represent idyllic,pastoral worlds with Luddites and hippie peace 
communes on them.
     Just remember, tech level is local manufacturing ability....not
local stupidity. These worlds may have many high tech conveniences 
imported from off world. To determine high tech available
from imports, use highest tech level of world with class a or b starport
within 4 jumps. Farther than that would be too expensive for some goods 
due to transport costs. Pc speculation is most welcome though.

     The last step is starports.

tech-1d6=            'A'= 7 or more                    'E'= -1 or less
                      'B'= 5 or more                    'X'= -4 or less
                      'C'= 3 or more
                      'D'= 2 or more

     I feel that starports should be to be maintained by local
manufacturing. Specialty parts can of course, be ordered with long 
shipping delays and outrageous prices.
     This is my version of the uwp. I welcome constructive criticism in
order to improve it.Otherwise, the best I can hope for is that someone 
will find parts of it useful.

With respect,
Richard Honeycutt




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 19:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Sat Aug 17 18:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <20020818001804.18620.13398.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentr
 al.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020818025141.00a07860@mail.pi.se>

>At 07:10 PM 8/17/02 -0400, you wrote:
> >Douglas Berry says
> > >Tell me, if I came up to you and insisted that Sweden was a
> > >threat to our way of life, what would you say?
> >
> >The US seems to think that way about Iraq.
>
>Don't get me started.  :)
>
>But our last war with Iraq was 11 years ago.  When was the last time that
>Sweden swept down on anyone?

After commanding the Northern Army at the Battle of Leipzig (1813) against 
Napoleon, heir-to-the-Swedish-throne Bernadotte's forces defeated the 
Danes. The peace treaty was signed in Kiel, January 1814. If you consider 
that campaign the last "real" war or if the short campaign against the 
Norwegian non-compliance with the same treaty later the same year is the 
last war is a matter of about ten months time, 188 years ago.

However, it can well be argued that before 1814, Sweden with great 
regularity and some measure of success undertook warmongering efforts of 
the "sweep down on anyone"-type.

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 19:37:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 17 18:37:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFCENCDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
References: <3d5e36c8.6019642@post.demon.co.uk>
 <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFCENCDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
Message-ID: <1885.208.28.190.37.1029634627.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

Hello Folks,
  For what it is worth?  Nothing says you have to take a 4 ton stateroom
  and assume that X space is bunking, Y space is corridors, and Z space is
  bathroom facilities.  If you want, in GURPS TRAVELLER, there is a
  program out there that lets you build ships based on modules.  If you
  use GURPS VEHICLES, you can determine what exactly goes into the
  modules.

For instance: if you know that you want a 4' wide by 6'6" tall corridor
with an additional 4'x2' conduit for power cables and such...

5 x (6.5 + 2) = 42.5 square feet.  each 11 feet of corridor is 467 cubic
feet of volume.  Want to make a "corridor" module that is only 4' wide
instead?  Then each module is roughly 14 feet in length.

In short?  Build restroom modules such that they take up 1/2 ton of space.
 Build kitchens that take up their own space.  Build "meeting rooms" that
use benches and tables instead of chairs.  You can be VERY detailed in
what goes into a ship's insides.  More importantly?  Any module that can
be designed for GURPS can generally be used in CT.  Of course, trying to
figure out how many energy points a module uses in CT can be problematical
;)






From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 19:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Edward Swatschek)
Date: Sat Aug 17 18:51:03 2002
Subject: Fwd: Re: [TML] FFW Question
Message-ID: <20020818015057.OQVS25741.priv-edtnes28.telusplanet.net@there>

On Friday 16 August 2002 22:45, Scott Ayres wrote:
> --- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> > At 05:18 PM 8/16/02 -0700,  Scott Ayres <ayrcontml@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >Did the Zho's ever actually attack Regina (in
> > >canon)?
> >
> > Depends on your canon.  CT canon is unclear.  In
> > Ground Forces it is stated clearly that there is a
> > landing.
>
> Between the old JTAS cover (assuming it's Regina) &
> the GF description, that's good enough for me.  Thanks.

The initial TNS reports indicate Regina was attacked:
>>> Regina/Regina (0310-A788899-A) Date: 187-1107

The Duke of Regina, speaking through his seneschal, announced in an
emergency press conference that as of 12:01 A.M. this date a formal state
of war has existed between the Imperium and the Zhodani Consulate. The
seneschal explained that the declaration of war was handed to him by
Ambassador Shterbifriashav late last night. The seneschal declined to
answer questions, stating that no further information was available at that
time.

>>> Rhylanor/Rhylanor (0306-A434934-F) Date: 201-1107

Word has today been received by fleet courier of the invasion of Regina,
the capital of the Spinward Marches. Naval spokesmen of the 212th Fleet
declined to comment publicly, but in private one naval officer expressed
the opinion that prolonged resistance on the world was unlikely in the
event of a serious Zhodani assault.

Coming only days after receipt of the news of the outbreak of the war, news
of Regina's invasion is a heavy blow to hopes of an early victory over the
Zhodani. The fall of Regina could sever the main communications artery to
the Jewell subsector, and seriously hinder communication with fleet
elements presumed to be fighting there.

-- 
Edward Swatschek - edjs@bitslayer.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 20:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sat Aug 17 19:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Names of Tigresses
In-Reply-To: <20020818011804.24991.62249.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208180340140.16440-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Leslie Bates writes:

>I need to name a TIGRESS class dreadnought for parts 5 and 6 of Friends in
>High Places.

I had a look through the Encyclopedia Brittanica and found some names for
Tigress Class Dreadna/oughts. Not nearly enough (if there are 17-18 8-ship
Tigress BatRons, then there are about 140 Tigresses), but you may find
them useful. IMO the more euphonious names would have been used first.

Tigress
Lioness          (IIRC _BtC_ mentions that _Lioness_ was destroyed during
                  the 5FW and replaced by a Lioness II)
Leopardess
Cougaress
Jaguaress
Pantheress       (_Pantheress_ was part of the squadron that was assigned
                  to the 212th Fleet at Rhylanor prior to the 5FW. After
                  the war the 212th was rotated to Jewell. Did the
                  Tigresses go with them or were they transferred to
                  another fleet?)
Pardess
Servaless
Ocelotess
Caradaless
Margayess
Catamountess
Clouded Tigress
Mountain Lioness
Snow Leopardess
Clouded Leopardess
Deer Tigress
Lynxess
Pumaess
Ouncess
Chetahess
Jaguarundess
Ligeress          (A liger is the (infertile) offspring of a male lion and
Tigoness          a female tiger and a tigon the (also infertile) offspring
                  of a male tiger and a female lion.)
Smilodontess
Sabretooth Tigress
Dirktooth Tigress

After that you propably have to fall back on 'alien carnivore/pouncers
with felinoid shapes', like Tuft Tigress etc. (Aslaness will be vetoed
by the Emperor himself!!)

(Since I first compiled the list I've stumbled across one or two more
names, but unfortunately I've failed to update the list, so I can't
remember what they were. IIRC there is an Egyptian mythological beast
called a <something> pard.)

There's a dozen wild cats that all are named 'something cat'.

Bobcat
Caffre cat
Fishing cat
Flat-headed cat
Geoffroy's cat
Golden cat
Marbeled cat
Pallas's cat
Pampas cat
Wildcat
Leopard cat

Unfortunately the only words I can find for 'female cat' is 'she-cat'
and 'tabby', and neither 'Xxxxx she-cat' nor 'Xxxxx tabby' really
appeals to me as names (I mean, how does _Wild Tabby_ or _Bob Shecat_ do
for you? See what I mean?). YMMV.

(Incidentally, I would have thought that the female of 'tomcat' would be
'tabby' and I would further think that no Naval <whoever decides on names
for ships> would ever use a name for a _domestic_ cat for a Tigress. But
that's just my opinion.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 20:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sat Aug 17 19:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Santanocheev's fate
In-Reply-To: <20020817231435.11006.44766.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208180407010.16440-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Douglas Berry writes:
>You snipped the bit about spending the rest of your life on an Exile
>World.  You notice we haven't heard anything from Admiral Lord Santocheev
>since Norris sacked him...

There were a couple of TNS newsbriefs about him after the war. He made
noises about wanting a proper court-martial, then decided to resign with
no forther fuss after all.

Personally I think he is one of Delphine's vassals and is back running his
fief nowadays. Count of Fornice or something like that.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 20:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug 17 19:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFGENIDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
References: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFGENIDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
Message-ID: <m3y9b4syby.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Peter Scarrott" <peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
>
> To expand on someone else's earlier comment (sorry hit 'delete' too
> fast), the Consulate's main advantage is not having a large Empire
> on any of it's other borders (ISTR).  Of all the large interstellar
> governments we know about the Imperium is the only one with more
> than one major neighbour.

I've ever assumed that it's just that we view the Far Future from the
3I's viewpoint, and that other empires live on the edges of the
Imperium's neighbours.

> This would allow it to concentrate a sizeable proportion of its
> armed forces against any Imperial attack; the Imperium can't reply
> in kind due to the necessity of keeping large forces against the
> Aslan, Solomani and too a lesser extent, against the Hivers, K'Kree
> and Vargr.

That's one of the reasons I take the view I do.  It's a rather unfair
and unrealistic view that the Imperium is the only polity which must
deal with others.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The purpose of the First Amendment's free-speech guarantee was pretty
clearly to protect political discourse.  But liberals reject the notion
that free speech is therefore limited to political topics, even broadly
defined.  True, that purpose is not inscribed in the amendment itself.
But why leap to the conclusion that a broadly worded constitutional
freedom (`the right of the people to keep and bear arms') is narrowly
limited by its stated purpose, unless you're trying to explain it away?
My New Republic colleague Mickey Kaus says that if liberals interpreted
the Second Amendment the way they interpret the rest of the Bill of
Rights, there would be law professors arguing that gun ownership is
mandatory.       --Michael Kinsley Washington Post, January 8, 1990

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 20:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat Aug 17 19:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAKEDJDLAA.redroach@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <20020818023219.15DA02793A@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/17/02 at 12:22 PM,  "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@pobox.com> said:

>the way this fellow's accomplishment is being
>expressed is in such game-related terms that only a devotee of the
>game can tell what he's done that is noteworthy.


>I am a devotee of said game, but I still don't understand the furor.
>Its just Barry Bonds. Loud mouth and possibly baseball player. Its
>not like he found a cure for Polio or something.

LOL!

Barry Bonds has never been a "lovable" player, but he has accomplished
some remarkable feats the last few years, and hitting 600 homeruns in
a career is an important milestone. I don't begrudge him his feat, or
Giants fans their celebration.

Eris,
    baseball fan!
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 20:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat Aug 17 19:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <m3lm75ftv9.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020818024453.999A92793A@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/17/02 at 08:22 AM,  ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
said:

>That's the thing: it's just a game.  And it's not even one which
>requires much intelligence.  Swing the bat, hit the ball, catch the
>ball, throw the ball--these are skills we could teach to chimps
>(although not, alas, to me--cursd eyes).

LOL! Robert, there's a lot more to it that that. 

Ballet, why would anyone want to watch *that*, it's just jumping
around and twirling on a stage -- skills we could teach to
chimps...yeah sure! <g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 21:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 17 20:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Vilani Chess
Message-ID: <118.15eaa552.2a906bbd@aol.com>

>Well, Nine Man Morris is pretty darned old. And it's both simple and a
>bear to get *good* at. 

5,000 years in the future, the Vilani have probably conflated it into "Nine 
Man Morris Dancing" . . . 

Or perhaps not   :  )


I don't want to spend a huge amount of time on this kind of thing, but people 
have been asking what games have survived, and I wanted to deal with a couple 
in GT: Nobles.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 21:24:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat Aug 17 20:24:28 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFGENIDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020818032341.35CE02793A@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/18/02 at 01:39 AM,  "Peter Scarrott"
<peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk> said:

>To expand on someone else's earlier comment (sorry hit 'delete' too
>fast), the Consulate's main advantage is not having a large Empire on
>any of it's other borders (ISTR).  Of all the large interstellar
>governments we know about the Imperium is the only one with more than
>one major neighbour.  

Not *quite* true. The Solomani Confederation is bordered by both the
Imperium and the Aslan Hierate. The Aslan are honor bound to leave the
Imperium alone by treaty, but they aren't honor bound to leave the
Confederation alone. I rather suspect the Solomani and Aslan have been
warring with each other for a long time...we just haven't heard much
about it.  

Oh, and I've never been clear on how it is that the Aslan don't butt
up against the Zhodani? Maybe it's out beyond charted space, and maybe
we don't have any published accounts of the fighting going on out
there, but that doesn't mean it's not happening.

Speaking of the Zhodani, we don't know what they may have run into
during their coreward explorations. However, they seem to have run
into something, and that something is spreading unrest throughout
their whole empire! We have a hint of it with the words "Empress
Wave", but we don't know what it is.

The Vargr are already fractured in to pocket empires and independent
systems. They are *all* surrounded by hostile forces. <g>

The K'kree have the Hivers and the Imperium. Personally, I'm in favor
of Vargr movement coreward of the Imperium toward K'kree space. Those
two species should mix "interestingly", to say the least. But that's
just something I'd toss into the mix IMTU.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 21:33:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat Aug 17 20:33:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <3D5E795F.ADC2DCBF@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020818033255.89A672793A@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/17/02 at 12:27 PM,  alan spik <babyduck@mindspring.com> said:

>No hot bunking except in emergencies.

I'd like to point out that if you have gravity control, you don't have
to have "bunks", containment webbing will do. Stack 'em up like
cordwood! <g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 21:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Aug 17 20:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Vilani Chess
In-Reply-To: <118.15eaa552.2a906bbd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020817233424.0260dea8@192.168.0.1>

At 11:17 PM 8/17/2002 -0400, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
>I don't want to spend a huge amount of time on this kind of thing, but people
>have been asking what games have survived, and I wanted to deal with a couple
>in GT: Nobles.

Poker.  Definitely Poker.

Various dice games.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"One who, on being told that this is a game about politics
and intrigue in 17th century Italy, asks to play a ninja."
-- Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 21:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sat Aug 17 20:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Vilani Chess
In-Reply-To: <118.15eaa552.2a906bbd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOELGINAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>


>Well, Nine Man Morris is pretty darned old. And it's both simple and a
>bear to get *good* at.

5,000 years in the future, the Vilani have probably conflated it into "Nine
Man Morris Dancing" . . .

Or perhaps not   :  )


I don't want to spend a huge amount of time on this kind of thing, but
people
have been asking what games have survived, and I wanted to deal with a
couple
in GT: Nobles.

LKW
_______________________________________________

I was vaguely curious what you thought of Thashirudri, the game I posted?

jml
who learned to lose at chess from my father,
a ranked chess player in his day


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 21:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sat Aug 17 20:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1029535009.444.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1029535009.444.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <p04330100b984ca72fc0e@[198.123.22.171]>

At 2:56 PM -0700 8/16/02, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>David P. Summers writes:
>>  While this is reasonably, there seems to be little or no coordination
>>  amongst the Imperiums neighbors (except maybe for the outworld
>>  confederation).  If the Solomani, Aslan, and Vargr were all to attack
>>  once....
>
>It would be a temporary mess on all the borders.  Since the portions of the
>Imperium don't generally support one another during wars anyway, there's no
reason to assume the result would be any more serious than any other wars.
>This is, also, the reason it really doesn't matter that the Imperium outweighs
>the Zhodani.  The wars have never been Imperium vs Zhodani, they've been Deneb
>vs some fraction of the Zhodani.


Well, the in the Frontier wars you see the spinward marches fighting 
on their own.  However, I'm not sure that isn't a matter of those 
being short wars.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 21:56:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sat Aug 17 20:56:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
In-Reply-To: <200208162213.g7GMDYE13854@catenary.cesa.opbu.xerox.com>
References: <200208162213.g7GMDYE13854@catenary.cesa.opbu.xerox.com>
Message-ID: <p04330101b984cb10215c@[143.232.119.186]>

At 3:13 PM -0700 8/16/02, Douglas R Glatz wrote:
>While there is nothing specific about agreements between the neighbors (and
>considering how little is actually released about the high level politics, I
>wouldn't expect to find anything), there is some canonical evidence that shows
>that there is a military standoff on at least three of the Imperium's borders.
>
>Referring to the MT/TNE timeline, when the rebellion kicks off, the Solomani,
>the Vargr and the Aslan all cross Imperial borders and take territory.  While
>there is no coordination in these actions, it is obvious that there *was* the
>military forces, and contingency plans, in place to take these actions in
>reaction to a change in the status quo.

This is "sort" of like it.  Except the Zhos never get into it and the 
Vargr and Aslan just start going unorganized raiding (though that has 
an effect)
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 21:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Sat Aug 17 20:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (Long)
Message-ID: <000001c2466b$ab4d2580$38ccd63f@customer>

> Most Zhodani are not psi.  And most psi's will not be willing to play any
> sort of guerrilla role -- the psi's left behind will not number in the
> hundreds of thousands, let alone millions, especially when there might be
> quite a few proles who are willing to point out psi-capable Zhodani in
their
> midst.  A single generation of red zoning, psionic suppression, and
> counter-psi should be sufficient to reduce the psi population to levels
> typical of Imperial planets (The murderous rage you cite is localized --
some
> Imperial planets do have Psi Institutes, after all.)  <snip>

I beg the indulgence of the TML.  The above statement includes some
misiterpretations that need to be addressed

Resources used:
The Traveller Book, Marc Miller c GDW 1982 (CTB)
CT Alien Module 4, J. Anndrew Keith, Marc Miller, and John Harshman c GDW
1985 (CTAR4)
GT Behind the Claw, Martin Dougherty and Niel Frier c Steve Jackson Games
Inc (GT:BTC)

The number of Zhodani psi's in the Spinward Marches isn't given any where I
could find, so I've had to extapolate based the information available.  In
the character generation section in CTAR 4 it says only those with a psi
strength of 9+ are trained.  This works out to a 27.78% chance of a Zhodani
character having psi strenth of 9+.  Using GT:BTC I've come with with a
approximate Zhodani population of 8,300,000,000 in the SM.  Using the 27.78%
as the precentage of psi's in that number, I get 2,305,740,000 psi's in the
SM.  Even 5% of the pop number gives 41,500,000.  Keep in mind the Zho's
have been at this for a long time and they test everyone, so I personally
think the higher number is closer to the truth.  Even if 5% stay behind
that's still 1,15,287,000 psi's to deal with.  Plus the millions of
volunteers who would flock to the SM to throw out the hated Imperials.

As to the Zhodani character I'll reproduce the Zhodani description in
GT:BTC, which I think is pretty right on:
    "The Zhodani are humans, differing primarily in cultural ways from
Imperial citizens (the physical differences between Zhodani and other humans
are minor).  The single greatest difference between Imperial and Zhodani
culture is the Zhodani use of psionics.  This is not merely a gimmick or a
talent employed by a few individuals, but a major factor in the structure of
Zhodani society.  The Zhodani view many traits common in the Imperium -
unhappiness with ones lot in life, dishonesty and so forth as no different
to physical maladies such as dysentery andinfluenza.  The Tavrchedl'
(Thought Police) identify the "sufferer's" who then receive treatment to
cure their "illness."  Many Imperials are horrified at this concept - to
them it is a fundamental right to be unhappy with (and complain about) one's
lot in life.  It is a vital tool in human interaction to lie or cheat or
manipulate - so the Imperials say.  In the Consulate, these are no different
than cancers or infectious diseases, and thay are treated as such.
    The Zhodani, meanwhile, view the Imperials as isolated, lonely
individuals who are sick and yet refuse to be cured.  Most Zhodani cannot
conceive of what it must be like to live under such horrible circumtances -
and would not want to try.
    The Consulate is a stable body, having long ago reached the maximum size
that its rulers beleived could be administered, and voluntarily ceased
expansion.  That is not to say the Consulate is untroubled.  There are Vargr
and other races occupying planets within Consulate space, and borders with
several states that are not always peaceful or friendly.  The five Frontier
Wars stand as examples of this continual friction.
    Generally, Zhodani policy is to mantain the staus quo reguarding
bordering states.  If trouble threatens, then the Consulate often will
attack, usually without waiting for a "trigger incident."  The intent is to
foster a defensive mentality in bordering states that keeps them from
lauching damaging first strikes into Zhodani space.  The unfortunate
spin-off is a reputation for aggression, but analysis will show that Zhodani
"aggression" has never been aimed at conquest, and has always been in
response to a perceived threat that might not yet have become obvious.
    The Zhodani have lauched several major expeditions in the direction of
the Galactic Core.  What they have found there remains a mystery outside the
Consulate.

>From the CTB:
    The Psionic Institute: In the face of popular and official disaproval,
the secrets of psionic science are held by a dedicated group of talented
individtuals who operate the Psionic Institute...Because of the prejudices
which exist, the Institute maintains a low profile, and it is quite
difficult  to locate its facilities.
     Psionics In Human Society
     The climate of public opinion about psionics is extremely negative.
Individuals will find it unhealthy to admit possession of, or sympathy for,
psionic powers.  Persons with psionic ability will not admit their powers
unless reassured that they are in no danger...
     Psionic individuals detected by the public or the authorities are
subject to a variety of responses based on a two dice throw: 12+ for
lobotomy, 10+ for lynching, 8+ for tarring and feathering, 6+ for
imprisonment, and 4+ for deportation.
     ....But society as a whole will not allow individuals to openly
advertise that they have psionic, nor will it allow individuals to use them
publicly....

John Scarlett
-------------------------------------
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -- George
Santayana



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 22:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sat Aug 17 21:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1029540496.4803.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1029540496.4803.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <p04330102b984cb573203@[143.232.119.186]>

At 4:28 PM -0700 8/16/02, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Douglas R Glatz writes:
>
>>  I was under the impression that the Imperium *does* shift forces in
>>  response  to attacks - and that it specifically *didn't* happen in the FFW
>>  because it  was over before the news had reached Capital and the reaction
>>  flowed back.
>
>Maybe, but there's not much canon evidence of it happening.

Well, what wars have we had.

Frontier wars; too short
Civil war; force shifting happens big time, esp in the MT setting, 
but this maybe seen as different than an external war.
Interstellar wars; sifting happened as soon as the threat was seen as 
big enough
Solomani Rim wars; I don't know of anything either way.
Vargr pacification campaigns; I don't know of anything either way, 
except, like the rim wars, this was seen as the "imperium" fighting.

It is hard to see where evidence should be present and is lacking.

>  >
>>  Indeed, I was under the impression that is how at least one of the
>>  Emperor's  of the Flag had amassed enough of a fleet to overcome the
>>  Capital fleet.
>
>Well, in the case of Arbellata she stole fleets as she passed 
>through, but that
>doesn't mean it was SOP.

It fits the view of shifting the best.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 22:03:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Sat Aug 17 21:03:06 2002
Subject: [TML] 2d6 bell curve
References: <008901c245b7$c934af00$ca413b41@customer> <2073.64.8.3.28.1029566427.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <002101c2466c$1c7a8900$38ccd63f@customer>

Thanks that's very helpful.

John Scarlett
----- Original Message -----
From: <hal@buffnet.net>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2002 2:40 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] 2d6 bell curve


> Hello John,
>   Below is your chart in its original form.  Below that chart is my
>   corrected form based on what it appears you are trying to do:
>
> > Are percetages below correct?
> >
> > Roll    Chances
> > 2         1 in 36    02.77%
> > 3         2 in 36    08.33%
> > 4         3 in 36    16.66%
> > 5         4 in 36    27.77%
> > 6         5 in 36    41.66%
> > 7         6 in 36    58.33%
> > 8         5 in 36    41.66%
> > 9         4 in 36    27.77%
> > 10       3 in 36    16.66%
> > 11       2 in 36    08.33%
> > 12       1 in 36    02.77%
>
> 2 or 12:   2.78%
> 3 or 11:   5.56%
> 4 or 10:   8.33%
> 5 or  9:  11.11%
> 6 or  8:  13.89%
> 7      :  16.67%
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 22:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 17 21:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT- I need info on Austrailian SF writers association.
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020817233424.0260dea8@192.168.0.1>
References: <118.15eaa552.2a906bbd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D5ED6C1.21154.1067D9A@localhost>

Hey sorry to bother everyone with this but this was the fastest way to do this 
:)

I have a friend in Australia who is a pretty good armature writer, and I am 
looking for information on the Australian science fiction and or fantasy 
organization for writers so I can pass it on to her. I do not know if I have the 
right title of the association but someone knows what I am talking about.  If 
someone can send me contact info I would be happy.  Email would be good 
and a web site would be great.

Thanks a bunch

Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 22:11:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 17 21:11:47 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <20020818032341.35CE02793A@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFGENIDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817205659.009e5cb0@mindspring.com>

At 10:23 PM 8/17/02 -0500, you wrote:

>Not *quite* true. The Solomani Confederation is bordered by both the
>Imperium and the Aslan Hierate. The Aslan are honor bound to leave the
>Imperium alone by treaty, but they aren't honor bound to leave the
>Confederation alone. I rather suspect the Solomani and Aslan have been
>warring with each other for a long time...we just haven't heard much
>about it.

The Solomani also share a small border with the Hive Federation.  So they 
have three major states to contend with: one known hostile, one presumed 
hostile, and one that is really the biggest threat.

Hm.  Could the entire Solomani movement be a manipulation to keep the two 
branches of Humaniti at each others' throats?  To what end?

>Oh, and I've never been clear on how it is that the Aslan don't butt
>up against the Zhodani? Maybe it's out beyond charted space, and maybe
>we don't have any published accounts of the fighting going on out
>there, but that doesn't mean it's not happening.

The Aslan colonies in The Beyond and Vanguard Reaches *might* butt up 
against Zhodani client states; but I don't see any place where the two 
would connect.

>Speaking of the Zhodani, we don't know what they may have run into
>during their coreward explorations. However, they seem to have run
>into something, and that something is spreading unrest throughout
>their whole empire! We have a hint of it with the words "Empress
>Wave", but we don't know what it is.

Which could explain why the Fifth Frontier War was by far their most 
serious effort in five centuries.  They want out!

>The Vargr are already fractured in to pocket empires and independent
>systems. They are *all* surrounded by hostile forces. <g>

Except where they aren't.  Today.

>The K'kree have the Hivers and the Imperium. Personally, I'm in favor
>of Vargr movement coreward of the Imperium toward K'kree space. Those
>two species should mix "interestingly", to say the least. But that's
>just something I'd toss into the mix IMTU.

A K'kree/Vargr war would be epic, to say the least.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.
gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Author of GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces
Geek Code: tc tm tn- t4-- tg++$ ru ge+ 3i+@ c+
            jt- au pi he+ as+ so-                           



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 22:12:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Sat Aug 17 21:12:48 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <20020818032341.35CE02793A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001101c2466d$22967320$0b01a8c0@duck>

> Oh, and I've never been clear on how it is that the Aslan don't butt
> up against the Zhodani? Maybe it's out beyond charted space, and maybe
> we don't have any published accounts of the fighting going on out
> there, but that doesn't mean it's not happening.

Canon answers this:  There are many independent human states between
the Zhodani and the Aslan.  I imagine most of those states are either
strong enough on their own or get help from the Zhodani or Imperium
to help keep the Aslan out.

> Speaking of the Zhodani, we don't know what they may have run into
> during their coreward explorations. However, they seem to have run
> into something, and that something is spreading unrest throughout
> their whole empire! We have a hint of it with the words "Empress
> Wave", but we don't know what it is.

Well, the Empress Wave is pretty much TNE only, which will likely
mutate when the new TNE resource book eventually comes out.

And while there are some very minor hints that the EW exists in
the GT alternate history, it has never been actually named, so it 
might not.

Regardless, I don't think the EW really applies to the discussion
as it is not a polity, but rather an "event" of some kind that
basically makes the Consulate implode.  It is a different type of
thing than what the discussions have been about.

> The K'kree have the Hivers and the Imperium. Personally, I'm in favor
> of Vargr movement coreward of the Imperium toward K'kree space. Those
> two species should mix "interestingly", to say the least. But that's
> just something I'd toss into the mix IMTU.

Canon shows that the Vargr and K'kree *do* interact.  This does
not get out of hand, however, due to the Lesser Rift.

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 22:13:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 17 21:13:52 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <m3lm75ftv9.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <20020817041418.74310.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>
 <20020817041418.74310.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817210450.009e5ec0@mindspring.com>

At 08:22 AM 8/17/02 -0600, you wrote:

> > Surely that doesn't escape notice and at least a little awe and
> > respect.
>
>That's the thing: it's just a game.  And it's not even one which
>requires much intelligence.  Swing the bat, hit the ball, catch the
>ball, throw the ball--these are skills we could teach to chimps
>(although not, alas, to me--curs=E8d eyes).

The ball is moving at 90+ mph, and does strange things due to spinning.

>I don't understand the fascination with spectator sports.  Sure, I've
>read the psychological explanations thereof, but I simply cannot
>relate.  It's one thing to play a sport and be proud of one's
>performance; it's another entirely to derive some amount of self-worth
>from the fact that one's townsman (who was almost certainly imported)
>performs well.

Tribalism.  My warriors kicked your warriors butts.  It's also the joy of=20
watching performers at the top of their game.

>Don't even get me started about how my taxes pay for a _business's_
>premises.

Not in San Francisco!  Pac Bell Park was paid for entirely by the private=20
sector.

>All that said, it does reserve a certain amount of respect.  The man
>has certainly achieved _something_ (staying in the game long enough to
>get to a certain number of home runs).

It isn't just longevity... it is his dedication, skill and=20
determination.  People have played longer than him and never hit a third as=
=20
many home runs.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 22:15:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sat Aug 17 21:15:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Victory in the Frontier Wars
In-Reply-To: <20020818040305.12208.88756.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208180610130.24162-100000@ask.diku.dk>

David P. Summers writes:
>At 3:13 PM -0700 8/16/02, Douglas R Glatz wrote:
>>Referring to the MT/TNE timeline, when the rebellion kicks off, the Solomani,
>>the Vargr and the Aslan all cross Imperial borders and take territory.  While
>>there is no coordination in these actions, it is obvious that there *was* the
>>military forces, and contingency plans, in place to take these actions in
>>reaction to a change in the status quo.
>
>This is "sort" of like it.  Except the Zhos never get into it and the
>Vargr and Aslan just start going unorganized raiding (though that has
>an effect)

Note that some people (me for one) believe that given the canonical
description of the size, funding, and organization of Aslan _ihatei_ and
Vargr corsairs, the effect described in MT is completely, utterly,
willing-suspension-of-disbelief-shatteringly implausible.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 22:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 17 21:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <20020818023219.15DA02793A@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAKEDJDLAA.redroach@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817211027.009e3210@mindspring.com>

At 09:32 PM 8/17/02 -0500, you wrote:
> >I am a devotee of said game, but I still don't understand the furor.
> >Its just Barry Bonds. Loud mouth and possibly baseball player. Its
> >not like he found a cure for Polio or something.

There have been many players who were only loud mouths (which Barry isn't, 
in fact he refuses to speak to the press most of the time.) but actively 
unlikable.  Take Ty Cobb.  Or Babe Ruth!  Neither of whom i would invite 
into my home.

>Barry Bonds has never been a "lovable" player, but he has accomplished
>some remarkable feats the last few years, and hitting 600 homeruns in
>a career is an important milestone. I don't begrudge him his feat, or
>Giants fans their celebration.

Now, if we could only put together a few wins while the Dodgers (spit) and 
Diamondbacks hit a slump...


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
- Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 22:24:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 17 21:24:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockhead
In-Reply-To: <3D5EED34.1080100@usisp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817211431.009e5a00@mindspring.com>

At 08:41 PM 8/17/02 -0400, you wrote:
>     It is my belief that the uwp could be improved upon.

*whole lotta snipping going on...*

Have you looked at _GURPS Traveller: First In_?  It has a world design 
system that addresses many of your concerns.  Based on current scientific 
knowledge, it gives fascinating results.

The system is really rather edition neutral.  You could easily use it with 
CT, as long as you translated things back into a UWP for trade codes and 
the like.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                    - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 22:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 17 21:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Vilani Chess
Message-ID: <9b.2c223755.2a907f57@aol.com>

>I was vaguely curious what you thought of Thashirudri, the game I posted?

I purposefully didn't look at it, because I didn't want to unconsciously put 
anything from it in GT: Nobles.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 23:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug 17 22:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817210450.009e5ec0@mindspring.com>
References: <20020817041418.74310.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>
 <20020817041418.74310.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020817210450.009e5ec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m31y8wsq2i.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
>
> > It's one thing to play a sport and be proud of one's performance;
> > it's another entirely to derive some amount of self-worth from the
> > fact that one's townsman (who was almost certainly imported)
> > performs well.
> 
> Tribalism.  My warriors kicked your warriors' butts.  It's also the
> joy of watching performers at the top of their game.

But that's part of my problem--it's really not `my warriors' vs. `your
warriors'; it's really `my mercs' vs. `your mercs.'

I've never really derived much joy from watching _others_ at the top
of their games; I've certainly derived an amount of joy from being at
the top of my own.  Although I _have_ leapt to my feet at a Rockies
game before...

> > Don't even get me started about how my taxes pay for a
> > _business's_ premises.
> 
> Not in San Francisco!  Pac Bell Park was paid for entirely by the
> private sector.

That's a great and beautiful thing.  I would like an amendment to the
Constitution: no public funds shall be allocated to games-playing.  It
is a sick phenomenon.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Upgrading your OS and not needing to upgrade your hardware is a great
feeling.                                             --Patrick Mullen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 23:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug 17 22:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817205659.009e5cb0@mindspring.com>
References: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFGENIDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020817205659.009e5cb0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m3wuqorbc7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
> 
> A K'kree/Vargr war would be epic, to say the least.

And would hopefully end in the utter extermination of the K'kree (the
vegetarians, anywa--I understand the Hivers had some success in
modifying their disease).  I loathe the K'kree.  The Zhodani may be
annoying, the Hivers may be a nuisance, the Vargr may be a pest, must
the K'kree must be destroyed.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
You never need a weapon until you need one badly.  --Jay Maynard

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 23:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sat Aug 17 22:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Vilani Chess
In-Reply-To: <9b.2c223755.2a907f57@aol.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOELKINAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>


>I was vaguely curious what you thought of Thashirudri, the game I posted?

I purposefully didn't look at it, because I didn't want to unconsciously put
anything from it in GT: Nobles.

LKW
_______________________________________________

sigh,

One vote no, one vote yes, one conscientious objector; nobody else seems to
be interested to post either way.

Does anyone think it is worth cleaning up and sending off to SJG?

jml
doing my part to extend canon
or mayhap filling the Black Hole


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 23:33:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 17 22:33:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Shifting fleets in Traveller Universe
In-Reply-To: <p04330102b984cb573203@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <ML-2.3.1029540496.4803.ajackson@ping>
 <p04330102b984cb573203@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <4627.64.8.3.28.1029648770.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

I seem to recall in IMPERIUM, where the govenor had to send ships out of
his sector at the Emperor's whim.  Other than that, I've not recalled
seeing anything regarding a fleet from a specific sector being moved from
one location to another.

Speaking of which?  The *only* way you can shift a fleet from one sector
into another is if you *intend* to start a war.  Either that, or the war
has been going on long enough for fleets to be able to arrive in time to
make a difference.  Fresh reinforcements anyone?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 00:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Sat Aug 17 23:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <000101c244a0$7698d9a0$0c0a0a0a@glidenet.com>
Message-ID: <000001c2463b$7093bba0$6401a8c0@GOCA>

I figure time travel is possible..its just changes to the past create a
new quantum reality while the old timeline remains unchanged, thus
preserving causality.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Shawn R Sears
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 14:12
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] RE: Trek Tech

> 
>Time-Travel is a huge no-no. Do I have >something against it? 

Sure I allow time travel in my universe.
Everyone travels FORWARD.

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 00:03:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Sat Aug 17 23:03:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <F56iYRZTwRcISVydZvQ00003ec3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000001c2463f$e9c040d0$6401a8c0@GOCA>

Actually, Lucas is going in to "Tanith" on a long-shot to hopefully find
Andray Dunnan and "Enterprise" there.  He finds Boake Valkinhayne and
Garvin Spasso instead.  Amaterasu is a whole different planet.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Larsen E. Whipsnade
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 12:24
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Casting Space Viking

From: John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

     "I seem to recall a ladies hand dangling something, but don't quote

me."


Mr. Lotz,

     That's the "Yo-Yo", one of the Space Viking vessels that come to 
Ameratsu(sp) to trade.  "Nemesis" finds "Space Scourge"; mailed fist
holding 
a comet by the head (looks like a whisk broom) and "Lamia" at
Ameratsu(sp).  
Boake Somebody is captain of the former and Garvan Spasso captain of the

latter.  Much to Harkaman's disgust, "Lamia" is run more like a
"soviet"; 
the crew divided into several committees each with reps on a central 
committee, than an actual Space Viking vessel.  "Captain" Spasso acts
merely 
as the mouthpiece.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 00:05:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Sat Aug 17 23:05:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockhead
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817211431.009e5a00@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPIEBJENAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

I now use First In with TNE. I have found no problems doing this, though it
can take awhile to completely generate a system. I have also used First In
to expand on generations done with other systems like the World Builders
Handbook.

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
Sent: Sunday, 18 August 2002 12:17 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Rockhead


At 08:41 PM 8/17/02 -0400, you wrote:
>     It is my belief that the uwp could be improved upon.

*whole lotta snipping going on...*

Have you looked at _GURPS Traveller: First In_?  It has a world design
system that addresses many of your concerns.  Based on current scientific
knowledge, it gives fascinating results.

The system is really rather edition neutral.  You could easily use it with
CT, as long as you translated things back into a UWP for trade codes and
the like.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                    - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 00:06:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Sat Aug 17 23:06:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Names of Tigresses
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208180340140.16440-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEBJENAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Also note that just becuase the class name is Tigeress does not mean all the
ships are named for the female of the species.

Vessels of this class facing the Aslan, would they consider a battleship
named for a female cat as an insult?

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Hans Henrik
Rancke-Madsen
Sent: Sunday, 18 August 2002 10:02 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Re: Names of Tigresses


Leslie Bates writes:

>I need to name a TIGRESS class dreadnought for parts 5 and 6 of Friends in
>High Places.

I had a look through the Encyclopedia Brittanica and found some names for
Tigress Class Dreadna/oughts. Not nearly enough (if there are 17-18 8-ship
Tigress BatRons, then there are about 140 Tigresses), but you may find
them useful. IMO the more euphonious names would have been used first.

Tigress
Lioness          (IIRC _BtC_ mentions that _Lioness_ was destroyed during
                  the 5FW and replaced by a Lioness II)
Leopardess
Cougaress
Jaguaress
Pantheress       (_Pantheress_ was part of the squadron that was assigned
                  to the 212th Fleet at Rhylanor prior to the 5FW. After
                  the war the 212th was rotated to Jewell. Did the
                  Tigresses go with them or were they transferred to
                  another fleet?)
Pardess
Servaless
Ocelotess
Caradaless
Margayess
Catamountess
Clouded Tigress
Mountain Lioness
Snow Leopardess
Clouded Leopardess
Deer Tigress
Lynxess
Pumaess
Ouncess
Chetahess
Jaguarundess
Ligeress          (A liger is the (infertile) offspring of a male lion and
Tigoness          a female tiger and a tigon the (also infertile) offspring
                  of a male tiger and a female lion.)
Smilodontess
Sabretooth Tigress
Dirktooth Tigress

After that you propably have to fall back on 'alien carnivore/pouncers
with felinoid shapes', like Tuft Tigress etc. (Aslaness will be vetoed
by the Emperor himself!!)

(Since I first compiled the list I've stumbled across one or two more
names, but unfortunately I've failed to update the list, so I can't
remember what they were. IIRC there is an Egyptian mythological beast
called a <something> pard.)

There's a dozen wild cats that all are named 'something cat'.

Bobcat
Caffre cat
Fishing cat
Flat-headed cat
Geoffroy's cat
Golden cat
Marbeled cat
Pallas's cat
Pampas cat
Wildcat
Leopard cat

Unfortunately the only words I can find for 'female cat' is 'she-cat'
and 'tabby', and neither 'Xxxxx she-cat' nor 'Xxxxx tabby' really
appeals to me as names (I mean, how does _Wild Tabby_ or _Bob Shecat_ do
for you? See what I mean?). YMMV.

(Incidentally, I would have thought that the female of 'tomcat' would be
'tabby' and I would further think that no Naval <whoever decides on names
for ships> would ever use a name for a _domestic_ cat for a Tigress. But
that's just my opinion.



Hans

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 00:07:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Sat Aug 17 23:07:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <3d5e36c8.6019642@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPMEBJENAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Have a look at the larger TNE warships, luxury cabins huhh!, on my version
of a Tigress

Crew: 15,339 (6,357xEngineering, 8xElectronics, 4xManeuver, 3,330xGunnery,
877xMaintenance, 600xFlight Crew, 3,549xCommand, 488xSteward, 126xMedical)
Flagship adds 26 (4xElectronics, 19xCommand, 2xSteward, 1xMedical)

Crew Accommodations: 24xLarge Staterooms (0.001Mw each), 4,200xSmall
Staterooms (0.0005Mw each)

Conclusion, despite the hype around this class they are cramped and
overcrowded. Essentially the hightech equivelant of HMS Victory of the
Napoleonic period.

I certainly would not want to serve on a Tigress.

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Stephen Tempest
Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2002 8:10 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation


I've noticed a disturbing trend among some starship designers to give
luxury accommodation to the ship's crew.  Even individual staterooms
for each rating are not considered extravagant.

Frankly, I think this mollycoddling and pampering will be fatal to the
morale of His Imperial Majesty's navy.

I've come to this conclusion after doing some reading on shipboard
life during the Age of Sail (which we all know Trav is partially based
on).  On a typical 74-gun ship of the line:

Senior officers had 8' square cabins, with a deck height of 6'.  That
makes about 10 square metres per officer:  or a single 4-ton standard
stateroom per 5 officers.

The crew of 500 were accommodated in an area of about 6000 square
feet.  Assuming the same deck height, that makes 1000 cubic metres or
2 cu.m per man.  One 4-ton stateroom per 28 people.

Of course, when the ship was at sea the crew would be observing
watches, so only half the crew would be asleep at one time, and they'd
have effectively twice the amount of space.  In Traveller terms, that
would equate to hot-bunking.

It's also worth pointing out that this accommodation wasn't only for
short periods:  many sailers would spend 4-5 years on shipboard before
they ever set foot on land again.

So, simplifying things a little, let's say officers get to share a
double stateroom with hot-bunking (1 per 4 officers) and crew are in
16-person bunkrooms, again with hot-bunking (1 per 32 crew).

Introduce this as standard design policy for warships and think how
much extra volume for weapons and powerplants will be freed up!

(Of course the crews might grumble a little, but introduce a few of
the disciplinary policies from the Age of Sail as well and they'll
soon settle down...)

Stephen

www.stempest.demon.co.uk/traveller/
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 00:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 17 23:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Zhodani Frontier War Philosophy
Message-ID: <1a8.6f28876.2a9096d4@aol.com>

 >Could it be possible that the Zhodani are playing a waiting game?

Lenin said regarding the overthrow of the west:  "Probe with bayonets.  Where 
you find steel, withdraw.  Where you find mush, continue."  I think the 
Zhodani are taking that statement one better and attempting to create mush.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 00:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug 17 23:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Zhodani Frontier War Philosophy
In-Reply-To: <1a8.6f28876.2a9096d4@aol.com>
References: <1a8.6f28876.2a9096d4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m33ctcr866.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
> 
> Lenin said regarding the overthrow of the west: "Probe with
> bayonets.  Where you find steel, withdraw.  Where you find mush,
> continue."  I think the Zhodani are taking that statement one better
> and attempting to create mush.

Lenin lost.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Take responsibility for your own actions.  You made decisions, and you
live by 'em.  People always want to blame somebody or something.  It's
always somebody else's fault.  But it's your own damned fault.
                                                 --Mojo Nixon

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 00:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 17 23:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Zhodani Frontier War Philosophy
In-Reply-To: <m33ctcr866.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <1a8.6f28876.2a9096d4@aol.com>
 <m33ctcr866.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <1404.64.8.3.28.1029652600.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

> Flykiller@aol.com writes:
>>
>> Lenin said regarding the overthrow of the west: "Probe with
>> bayonets.  Where you find steel, withdraw.  Where you find mush,
>> continue."  I think the Zhodani are taking that statement one better
>> and attempting to create mush.
>
> Lenin lost.

How did Lenin lose?  When he died, Russia was still Russia, and many had
died at his hands.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 00:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 17 23:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockhead
Message-ID: <90.2a95b775.2a909c11@aol.com>

 >I welcome constructive criticism in order to improve it.

I would say add some modifiers regarding proximity to other populated worlds. 
 Traveller canon says that the Spinward Main developed more rapidly than 
worlds off of the Main because the Main worlds could be reached by jump 1 
vessels, and that other worlds languished and were left behind.  If you study 
the Main it is obvious that this modifier was not implemented, as the worlds 
on the Main are indistinguishable from those off of it, but it makes sense to 
actually implement such a modifier.  Say you have an A or 9 world with no 
other A or 9 world within 6 parsecs -- it's not going to do much trading and 
it's going to do a lot of work on its own.  But if you have two or three A or 
9 worlds within 2 parsecs of each other then they'll trade a great deal in 
both goods and technology.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 00:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug 17 23:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Zhodani Frontier War Philosophy
In-Reply-To: <1404.64.8.3.28.1029652600.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <1a8.6f28876.2a9096d4@aol.com> <m33ctcr866.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
 <1404.64.8.3.28.1029652600.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <m3u1lspst1.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

hal@buffnet.net writes:
>
> > > Lenin said regarding the overthrow of the west: "Probe with
> > > bayonets.  Where you find steel, withdraw.  Where you find mush,
> > > continue."  I think the Zhodani are taking that statement one
> > > better and attempting to create mush.
> >
> > Lenin lost.
> 
> How did Lenin lose?  When he died, Russia was still Russia, and many
> had died at his hands.

He lost: Russia, while not the holt country it once was, has become
capitalist and free.  Lenin's regime of slavery has been conquered.

Millions are free, and Lenin is nothing more than a head and some
limbs, preserved for the sake of habit.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
There's nothing in human experience compared to which a sendmail
config file could be considered simple.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 00:49:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Sat Aug 17 23:49:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020817164753.00b88008@mailhost.efn.org>
Message-ID: <000001c24683$41d45610$6501a8c0@Darla>

Snicker...I did something similar to my players a few years ago.  When
refueling at a gas giant in an Amber Zone, they picked up a very small
ship trying to match velocities with them.  They concluded, almost
correctly, that it was some sort of CAPTOR mine and tried to avoid, but
the pilot eventually ran out of luck and the unknown collided with their
ship.

Instead of the expected "BOOM", instead they got on a guard frequency:
"I'M A SIXTY MINUTE MINE...I'M A SIXTY MINUTE MINE...FIFTY-NINE MINUTES
FIFTY-NINE SECONDS...FIFTY-NINE MINUTES FIFTY-EIGHT SECONDS..."  At this
time I placed a big old mechanical photo timer with a very loud
tick-tock on the table and started it.

They were shortly after contacted by the Pirates who had placed the mine
with an offer to sell them the disarm code...

TWB

P.S. the original idea is the "sixty-second bomb" in Starship Troopers.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 01:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Akchizar)
Date: Sun Aug 18 00:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
In-Reply-To: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFGENBDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
Message-ID: <NFBBJPPMILPGBFNEIEOCGELCCDAA.Akchizar@SoftHome.net>

>Anyway I've always considered any game to be a set of guidelines from which
>I introduce house rules etc.

I always stuck to the D20 system when using D&D 3rd ed. But after looking
over T4, i decided to consider it not as rules, but as an idea, and am in
the process of modifying everything possible. I think sometimes that the
problem with D&D is that either something works well, or it's so embedded
into the actual system that it's hard to change more that small parts of the
rules. The great thing about T4 was that so much of it had problems that I
could put in house rules for whole heaps of bits. Anyay, that's my opinion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 01:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 18 00:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Tech Levelling
In-Reply-To: <lfltluk0rocq2fhglkaq24jvjemv56mupr@4ax.com>
References: <lfltluk0rocq2fhglkaq24jvjemv56mupr@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020818174853.A3991@freeman.little-possums.net>

Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
> Think cost of transport as an additional factor.  If shipping a car from
> Japan to the US added an additional $1000 per Traveller Displacement Ton
> (or about $1000-1500 per car [I assumed dimensions of 15'x8'x5']) per week,
> and it took a minimum of a week to get from origin to destination, would
> there be as much trade in cars between the US and Japan?

That's well within the range of shipping prices and times in the real
world.  So yes, I can say with great confidence that there would.

However, cars are actually a fairly low-value cargo per unit volume.
One dton of consumer electronics or even clothing can easily be worth
10 times as much as a car.  If you raised freight rates in Traveller,
other items would continue to be viable for much longer than cars
would.


> Ummm... Look again: China is at a lower TL than Australia,

Says who?  They aren't as rich per head of population, but they
certainly have similar technology capability.  In fact, Australia
imports far more high-tech goods from China than the reverse.

If TL is so important to trade, and you think that China is lower tech
than Australia, how could that possibly be?


> And what _does_ Australia export?  And to where?  I don't see very
> much of anything that has 'Made in Australia' on it...

Why would you expect to?  Australia exports rather large amounts of
agricultural produce, metals, and petroleum products, but not many
consumer products.  That's part of my point.

Australia has roughly the same land area as the US, but with about 6%
the population.  Per head of population, we have huge amounts of many
natural resources.  It thus makes sense for a lot of our exports to be
direct products of those resources.

This translates directly to Traveller, since different planets are
going to have a very different mix of resources of various types.


> Yes, I simplified in my earlier posts,

To the point of absurdity.


> and yes, I omitted some factors that I shouldn't have.  But TL _is_
> a big factor in trade, even in the real world today.

It is a big factor, but not the sole determinant or even the biggest
factor.  The mix of needs and available resources is far more
important.  Cultural diversity also plays a part.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 02:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Simon Brodie)
Date: Sun Aug 18 01:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
References: <NFBBJPPMILPGBFNEIEOCGELCCDAA.Akchizar@SoftHome.net>
Message-ID: <003801c2468f$9918c440$8f68ff3e@bloodyhellfire>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Akchizar" <Akchizar@SoftHome.net>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: 18 August 2002 8:15 AM
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.

><snip> The great thing about T4 was that so much of it had problems...>

And this is why us gamers can often get sold absolute heaps of garbage.  If
we bought cars the had as many problems we would get our money back, not
think how great it is that we now get to continually tinker with the engine
just to get it working.

That is why I am glad T20 has slipped, the feeling I get is that time is
being spent making sure we don't get sold 'another' turkey.

Well, just my 10c worth, or is it 12 Euros?

Si



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 02:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Simon Brodie)
Date: Sun Aug 18 01:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
References: <NFBBJPPMILPGBFNEIEOCGELCCDAA.Akchizar@SoftHome.net> <003801c2468f$9918c440$8f68ff3e@bloodyhellfire>
Message-ID: <004a01c24690$c1cd7e20$8f68ff3e@bloodyhellfire>

> ><snip> The great thing about T4 was that so much of it had problems...>
>
> And this is why us gamers can often get sold absolute heaps of garbage.
If
> we bought cars the had as many problems we would get our money back, not
> think how great it is that we now get to continually tinker with the
engine
> just to get it working.
>
> That is why I am glad T20 has slipped, the feeling I get is that time is
> being spent making sure we don't get sold 'another' turkey.
>
> Well, just my 10c worth, or is it 12 Euros?
>
> Si

----- Original Message -----
From: "Simon Brodie" <mr.fingle@virgin.net>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: 18 August 2002 9:16 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] OTU is out of wack.

wow, didn't realize how much of a nerve this had touched until I read it
myself.  Guess I am still sore about some of the bits of rubbish I have
bought in the past.

:-)

Si


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 02:21:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Akchizar)
Date: Sun Aug 18 01:21:04 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
In-Reply-To: <003801c2468f$9918c440$8f68ff3e@bloodyhellfire>
Message-ID: <NFBBJPPMILPGBFNEIEOCIELECDAA.Akchizar@SoftHome.net>

<snippage>And this is why us gamers can often get sold absolute heaps of
garbage.<snippage>
but...but....THATS THE FUN!!!!! I walk into the second-hand book store, and
i go 2 the rp books. and i look through the usual...D&D 1st ed, teenage
mutant truckin' turtles, torg, star trek...and i see an rp system. it looks
lonely. so i buy it for $10-$20. I take it home. i read it. i never use it.
but i keep it. and i mod it. and when i get lonely at night, i take them
out, and i talk to them...

well...maybe im not *that* far gone...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 02:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (douglas glatz)
Date: Sun Aug 18 01:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Damned Silly Questions
References: <3.0.6.32.20020817113835.007bb100@minn.net>
Message-ID: <00ce01c24691$12974160$8116a8c0@localdomain.com>

Boys are Toms, girls are Queens.

Kelly and Jeff answered it, I'm merely confirming it - I breed 'em (Maine
Coons).

douglas

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leslie Bates" <lesbates@minn.net>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2002 9:38 AM
Subject: [TML] Damned Silly Questions


> I sorry about having to send this message again. For some reason the first
> transmission had not appeared in my mail box as of this time.
>
> I need to name a TIGRESS class dreadnought for parts 5 and 6 of Friends in
> High Places.
>
> Is there a feminine form of tomcat? If so, what is it?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
>
> Les
>
> ==================================================================
> Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
> P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>      We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them
> and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our
> beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief
> pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled.
> -- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>      Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
> death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one
> who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of
> new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat.
>      From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
> things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of
> flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
> be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time.
> -- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
> ==================================================================
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 02:26:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (douglas glatz)
Date: Sun Aug 18 01:26:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
References: <200208162213.g7GMDYE13854@catenary.cesa.opbu.xerox.com> <p04330101b984cb10215c@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <00cf01c24691$13ee9400$8116a8c0@localdomain.com>

> >Referring to the MT/TNE timeline, when the rebellion kicks off, the
Solomani,
> >the Vargr and the Aslan all cross Imperial borders and take territory.
While
> >there is no coordination in these actions, it is obvious that there *was*
the
> >military forces, and contingency plans, in place to take these actions in
> >reaction to a change in the status quo.
>
> This is "sort" of like it.  Except the Zhos never get into it and the
> Vargr and Aslan just start going unorganized raiding (though that has
> an effect)

I've always liked the explanation that the Zho's only felt threatened by a
unified Imperium - the Domain of Deneb was no threat to their internal
security, so they ignored it.

However, that tends to require a fundementally non-expansionistic Consulate.
As opposed to the Expansionistic tendencies of the Vargr, and the
apparantly, the Aslan.

douglas



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 02:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 18 01:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Zhodani Frontier War Philosophy
In-Reply-To: <m38z35t2ks.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEGGEEAA.carlino@cox.net> <m38z35t2ks.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020818185239.B3991@freeman.little-possums.net>

Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> That raises the whole issue of the Imperium's outlook on psionics.
> I'm not certain that it makes a whole lot of sense, to tell the
> truth, esp. when there's a violent neighbour who uses them.

It makes sense if you believe that the Zhodani deliberately influenced
the Imperium to suppress their own psionic development :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 02:54:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 18 01:54:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Victory in the Frontier Wars
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208180610130.24162-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <20020818040305.12208.88756.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208180610130.24162-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <20020818185349.C3991@freeman.little-possums.net>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> Note that some people (me for one) believe that given the canonical
> description of the size, funding, and organization of Aslan _ihatei_ and
> Vargr corsairs, the effect described in MT is completely, utterly,
> willing-suspension-of-disbelief-shatteringly implausible.

Me for another one.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 05:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug 18 04:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Zhodani Frontier War Philosophy
Message-ID: <15b.12b1d880.2a90e424@aol.com>

In a message dated 18/08/02 07:49:07 GMT Daylight Time, ruhl@4dv.net writes:


hal@buffnet.net writes:
>
> > > Lenin said regarding the overthrow of the west: "Probe with
> > > bayonets.  Where you find steel, withdraw.  Where you find mush,
> > > continue."  I think the Zhodani are taking that statement one
> > > better and attempting to create mush.
> >
> > Lenin lost.
> 
> How did Lenin lose?  When he died, Russia was still Russia, and many
> had died at his hands.

He lost: Russia, while not the holt country it once was, has become
capitalist and free.  Lenin's regime of slavery has been conquered.

Millions are free, and Lenin is nothing more than a head and some
limbs, preserved for the sake of habit.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

In all fairness to Lenin (and I am no lover of him or his philosophy) I think 
you are blaming many of the ills of the Soviet Union on the wrong man. That 
doesn't of course mean Lenin was a nice, misunderstood fellow who had he 
survived would have produced a Workers' Paradise; it just means that he 
didn't have enough time in power after the Boleshivik Revolution to really 
make his mark.

Lenin seized power in October 1917 and the Bolsheviks fought a civil war 
until October 1920. Lenin allowed limited capitalism (although how long this 
would have lasted is open for discussion) with the New Economic Plan in 1921. 
An attempt, I believe, to speed recovery after six years of war.

In May 1922 Lenin suffered his first stroke and power effectively passed to 
Stalin and Zinoviev. Lenin died on January 21st 1924 having been unable to 
speak since his third stroke in March 1923.

Forced collectivisation of land and centrally planned economics didn't really 
take off until 1928 under Stalin. I humbly suggest that your opprobrium 
should be directed at Comrade Stalin, who was, IMHO, a much bigger bastard 
than Lenin.

I would also suggest that you avoid declaring Russia free until at least a 
hundred years have passed, it is too early yet to know how the dice will 
fall.
  
Charles

obTrav: er...give me time...it's on the tip of my tongue...

I addressed some cheerful chit-chat at the man opposite but was rewarded with 
grunt. I tried the man next to me but he just looked at the gentleman I had 
tried first and said "Do you know what he's talking about?" At this point I 
realised I was getting out my depth but the Dean stepped in and saved me, "Oh 
don't worry about it" he said, "They're mathematicians - we never talk to 
them."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 06:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Sun Aug 18 05:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] 2d6 bell curve
In-Reply-To: <005301c245a8$b212e440$ca413b41@customer>
Message-ID: <000401c246af$7b606050$0c0a0a0a@glidenet.com>

Actually 2d6 will NOT produce a bell curve.
You need 3d# to produce an actual bell curve.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of John Scarlett
Sent: Saturday, 17 August, 2002 00:44
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] 2d6 bell curve

Some help please.  Does anyone have or know where I can find a bell
curve
for 2 six sided dice.  Mind you I'm not that mathematically incline so
it
would have to something simple.

Thanks in advance.
John Scarlett
----------------------------
A child educated only at school is an uneducated child.- George
Santayana


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 06:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sun Aug 18 05:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Human Nature or 'WWRD' or 'WWAD'
In-Reply-To: <1828.208.28.190.37.1029632377.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <14prlukovr8b9uqj0u65dbd1sajo6rno6g@4ax.com> <20020816232302.6238.63480.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <14prlukovr8b9uqj0u65dbd1sajo6rno6g@4ax.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020817090545.009eb100@mindspring.com> <1828.208.28.190.37.1029632377.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <3d5f8b21.3050195@post.demon.co.uk>

hal@buffnet.net writes:

>First off, I'd construct a LOT of intelligence scout ships that wait on
>the outskirts of Zhondani systems within jump distance of Imperial
>borders.  These scouts would then act as trip wires as they watch for
>massed fleet build ups.=20

Bear in mind that if the scout ships are registered to the IN or IISS,
the Consulate would be perfectly justified in considering this to be
an act of war - and if they're civilian ships, they're spying and the
crews are presumably liable to execution if caught...  If the Imperium
_wants_ to provoke a war with the Consulate, this seems a good way of
going about it.

> If a system has only 24 system defense boats (all
>likely trying to hunt down the scouts by the way) in it, and suddenly =
has
>100 warships in it and needs to refuel for its push into Imperial
>territory - wouldn't that be a sign for the Imperials to start moving =
over
>to war alert status?

What if the Zhodani conduct regular fleet exercises, and twice a year
for 10 years 100 ships appear in that border system?  How will the
scouts (and their Naval Intelligence handlers) know that _this_ time,
it's for real?  How long can you stay at war alert status?

=46or that matter, what if the Zhodani fleet assembles at an uncharted
star or a fuel dump in deep space?

Stephen

TAS Report from Regina/Regina, 186-1107
"The Admiralty was today electrified by the report of the appearance
of a substantial Zhodani battlefleet at Ruie (Regina 0209), scarcely a
parsec from the subsector capital.  The report was carried by the
detached scout/courier _Wayward Dream_. [...] Thus far Ambassador
Shterbifriashav has been unavailable for comment.  [...] Grave
diplomatic repercussions are expected."

TAS Report from Rhylanor/Rhylanor, 201-1107
"Word has today been received by fleet courier of the invasion of
Regina."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 06:26:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sun Aug 18 05:26:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Zhodani tech development (Was: Victory in the Frontier Wars)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208180220230.16440-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208180220230.16440-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <3d61913b.4611769@post.demon.co.uk>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:

>No. At some point around -1000 they just decided to put a moratotium on
>further expansion while they consolidated their present holdings. Since
>then they haven't expanded much. Just why it would take them more than
>2000 years to consolidate is not explained anywhere.

Because colonising new planets demands people who are individualistic,
independent, rugged, and capable of being both ruthless and selfish
when their survival demands it?

Even if such people still exist in the Brave New World of the
Consulate, I expect the nobles fear them and don't want them setting
up worlds of their own outside the settled power structure.  The only
possible exception is if you can load them into long-distance
transports and send them safely hundreds of parsecs out of the way to
settle the Core Route.  (Social engineering;  not a reason I've seen
put forward for the Core Expeditions before, but it *does* seem to fit
the facts...)

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 06:27:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sun Aug 18 05:27:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Tech Levelling
In-Reply-To: <lfltluk0rocq2fhglkaq24jvjemv56mupr@4ax.com>
References: <lfltluk0rocq2fhglkaq24jvjemv56mupr@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <3d608f28.4080772@post.demon.co.uk>

Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com> writes:

>
>And what _does_ Australia export?  And to where?  I don't see very much =
of
>anything that has 'Made in Australia' on it...
>
Off the top of my head, I'd say wool, mutton, and minerals.  Oh, and
beer.  And daytime soap operas.  And Kylie Minogue.

Having looked it up, I see that I can add beef and wheat to that list,
and that Australia in 1990 exported about $40b from a GNP of $240b
(17%), mostly to Japan (27%) and the US (11%).

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 06:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sun Aug 18 05:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <20020818033255.89A672793A@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020818033255.89A672793A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3d6293c8.5264889@post.demon.co.uk>

"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com> writes:

>I'd like to point out that if you have gravity control, you don't have
>to have "bunks", containment webbing will do. Stack 'em up like
>cordwood! <g>

To push the analogy of an 18th century warship to the limit, you don't
actually need dedicated space for the crew at all.  Just let them
sling their hammocks (sorry, containment webbing) in the ship's gun
turrets and bays...

I also note that apparently, one of the biggest problems with
hotbunking is psychological - the feeling that you don't have your own
space, and even your bedding still carries someone else's smell and
body heat.  If everyone has their own bedding, and it's just the space
where they rig it which is shared with someone else, even that problem
is averted!

Stephen
(And for Terry's benefit, perhaps I should confirm that yes, my tongue
is firmly in my cheek throughout this thread...)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 06:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sun Aug 18 05:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <m3wuqorbc7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817205659.009e5cb0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3D60407A.27103.29B41BB@localhost>

On 17 Aug 2002, at 23:21, Robert Uhl wrote:

> And would hopefully end in the utter extermination of the K'kree (the
> vegetarians, anywa--I understand the Hivers had some success in
> modifying their disease).  I loathe the K'kree.  The Zhodani may be
> annoying, the Hivers may be a nuisance, the Vargr may be a pest, must
> the K'kree must be destroyed.

Sir, you obviously fail to understand the importance of maintaining the 
K'kree. Not only are they an excellant distraction for the perfidious Hivers, 
but they are excellant with mint sauce.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 06:51:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sun Aug 18 05:51:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Victory in the Frontier Wars
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208180610130.24162-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <20020818040305.12208.88756.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D60407A.2843.29B41BB@localhost>

On 18 Aug 2002, at 6:14, Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> Note that some people (me for one) believe that given the canonical
> description of the size, funding, and organization of Aslan _ihatei_ and
> Vargr corsairs, the effect described in MT is completely, utterly,
> willing-suspension-of-disbelief-shatteringly implausible.

Ditto

IMTU Vargr corsairs raid small colonies (pop 3 and 4). Big enough to be 
profitable, but small enough to take on. Aslan Ihatei just don't move into an 
organised state, they prefer uninhabited worlds, but will go for worlds 
similar to corsairs if nothing easier is available.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 07:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Sun Aug 18 06:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Human Nature or 'WWRD' or 'WWAD'
In-Reply-To: <3d5f8b21.3050195@post.demon.co.uk>
References: <1828.208.28.190.37.1029632377.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <14prlukovr8b9uqj0u65dbd1sajo6rno6g@4ax.com>
 <20020816232302.6238.63480.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <14prlukovr8b9uqj0u65dbd1sajo6rno6g@4ax.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020817090545.009eb100@mindspring.com>
 <1828.208.28.190.37.1029632377.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020818090531.02500c00@mail.buffnet.net>

Hello Stephen,




>Bear in mind that if the scout ships are registered to the IN or IISS,
>the Consulate would be perfectly justified in considering this to be
>an act of war - and if they're civilian ships, they're spying and the
>crews are presumably liable to execution if caught...  If the Imperium
>_wants_ to provoke a war with the Consulate, this seems a good way of
>going about it.

of course it would be espionage.  Point is?  They have to *catch* the 
ships.  And the crews would be intel types or Scouts to begin with.  As it 
is, IISS is NOT a military outfit - it is a civilian branch of stellar 
survey activities.  ;)



> > If a system has only 24 system defense boats (all
> >likely trying to hunt down the scouts by the way) in it, and suddenly has
> >100 warships in it and needs to refuel for its push into Imperial
> >territory - wouldn't that be a sign for the Imperials to start moving over
> >to war alert status?
>
>What if the Zhodani conduct regular fleet exercises, and twice a year
>for 10 years 100 ships appear in that border system?  How will the
>scouts (and their Naval Intelligence handlers) know that _this_ time,
>it's for real?  How long can you stay at war alert status?
>
>For that matter, what if the Zhodani fleet assembles at an uncharted
>star or a fuel dump in deep space?


For the military manuevers part - they need supplies to be transported.  A 
fleet without transports isn't much of a threat.  A fleet with transports 
is a threat.  As for the deep space fuel depots?  That is a definite issue. ;)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 08:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug 18 07:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Zhodani tech development (Was: Victory in the Frontier Wars)
Message-ID: <76.20f1f2e0.2a91023e@aol.com>

In a message dated 18/08/02 13:27:18 GMT Daylight Time, 
tml@stempest.demon.co.uk writes:


> >No. At some point around -1000 they just decided to put a moratotium on
> >further expansion while they consolidated their present holdings. Since
> >then they haven't expanded much. Just why it would take them more than
> >2000 years to consolidate is not explained anywhere.
> 
> Because colonising new planets demands people who are individualistic,
> independent, rugged, and capable of being both ruthless and selfish
> when their survival demands it?
> 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Isn't it possible to argue the opposite POV - that the colonisation of worlds 
requires people able to work well as a group, and who consider the welfare of 
the whole enterprise over the welfare of themselves as individuals?

Also the Zhodani of canon are personally ambitious and their ability to 
direct individuals toward particular jobs means they can probably produce 
"ideal" colonists in large numbers if they so choose.
 
Charles

"All of us are creatures of a day; the rememberer and remembered alike"

Marcus Aurelius, Mediations IV/35


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 08:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug 18 07:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] 2d6 bell curve
Message-ID: <200208181437.NAV00298@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Shawn R Sears says
>Actually 2d6 will NOT produce a bell curve.
>You need 3d# to produce an actual bell curve.


Shame on you!  Throw the dice enough times and you *will* get 
such a distribution.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 09:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug 18 08:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] PBeM game
Message-ID: <000f01c245a8$1355af40$0df03c04@backupcompute>

Novice Traveller seeks PBeM game. New to the game, first time actually. =
Please reply to michael.grulich@verizon.net if interested in having me =
in your game.

Thanks


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 09:40:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Edward Swatschek)
Date: Sun Aug 18 08:40:11 2002
Subject: [TML] FFW Question
In-Reply-To: <20020817054530.80135.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020817054530.80135.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020818014847.SUZE3365.priv-edtnes15-hme0.telusplanet.net@there>

On Friday 16 August 2002 22:45, Scott Ayres wrote:
> --- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> > At 05:18 PM 8/16/02 -0700,  Scott Ayres <ayrcontml@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Did the Zho's ever actually attack Regina (in
> > >canon)?
> >
> > Depends on your canon.  CT canon is unclear.  In
> > Ground Forces it is stated clearly that there is a
> > landing.
>
> Between the old JTAS cover (assuming it's Regina) &
> the GF description, that's good enough for me.  Thanks.


The initial TNS reports indicate Regina was attacked:

>>> Regina/Regina (0310-A788899-A) Date: 187-1107

The Duke of Regina, speaking through his seneschal, announced in an 
emergency press conference that as of 12:01 A.M. this date a formal state 
of war has existed between the Imperium and the Zhodani Consulate. The 
seneschal explained that the declaration of war was handed to him by 
Ambassador Shterbifriashav late last night. The seneschal declined to 
answer questions, stating that no further information was available at that 
time. 


>>> Rhylanor/Rhylanor (0306-A434934-F) Date: 201-1107

Word has today been received by fleet courier of the invasion of Regina, 
the capital of the Spinward Marches. Naval spokesmen of the 212th Fleet 
declined to comment publicly, but in private one naval officer expressed 
the opinion that prolonged resistance on the world was unlikely in the 
event of a serious Zhodani assault. 

Coming only days after receipt of the news of the outbreak of the war, news 
of Regina's invasion is a heavy blow to hopes of an early victory over the 
Zhodani. The fall of Regina could sever the main communications artery to 
the Jewell subsector, and seriously hinder communication with fleet 
elements presumed to be fighting there. 


-- 
Edward Swatschek - edjs@bitslayer.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 09:41:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shadowcat)
Date: Sun Aug 18 08:41:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Names of Tigresses
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208180340140.16440-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <20020818011804.24991.62249.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D5EDD0D.11267.151AECC@localhost>

I'd at least use the "Grumman Cats"
Tigercat
Wildcat
Bearcat
Tomcat

his royal furry magnifence Lord Fafrhd, votes for Coon Cat to be 
included, and demand another 500 chihuhuas as tribute for the 
slight if its not included


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 09:51:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun Aug 18 08:51:04 2002
Subject: [TML] View before eating
Message-ID: <F118l37W4jb8BGxWSlv00009452@hotmail.com>

Fred, mon cher,

     Thought this little pic would bring a few smiles to the denizens of the 
All New Bear Den deep in the heart of the Baked Apple.  In it, I am trying 
my best to bring some "tone" to a family pool party.  Being a fashion 
pioneer truly is a thankless job.


     As always, I remain, etc., etc., etc.,
     B.

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 09:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug 18 08:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
Message-ID: <10e.15e6248e.2a911dc0@cs.com>

babyduck@mindspring.com writes: 
> Of
> course its J3 M6 and heavily armed with a PA bay and the Whipsnade
> configurable turrets. 
> 

Apparently I missed this reengineering of turrets. Could someone please 
review this online, or at least point me toward a site with this information? 
Thank you

Doug Grimes


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 10:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sun Aug 18 09:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Damned Silly Questions
References: <a7.251d2f62.2a8db4d6@aol.com> <3.0.6.32.20020817091336.00a8d100@minn.net>
Message-ID: <3D5FCDBB.5013C3EE@mindspring.com>

Leslie Bates wrote:
> 
> I need to name a TIGRESS class dreadnought for parts 5 and 6 of Friends in
> High Places.
> 
> Is there a feminine form of tomcat? If so, what is it?
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> Les
> 
> 

I'm partial to Danger Kitty. ;)
-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute.
That's relativity.
                               -Albert Einstein

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 10:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sun Aug 18 09:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817092651.009de420@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3D5FCED0.AAFABDD5@mindspring.com>

Douglas Berry wrote:
> 

> 
> Tell me, if I came up to you and insisted that Sweden was a threat to our
> way of life, what would you say?
> 


Nuke em till they glow. I think there's a magazine article in that. :o
-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute.
That's relativity.
                               -Albert Einstein

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 11:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Aug 18 10:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Human Nature or 'WWRD' or 'WWAD'
In-Reply-To: <3d5f8b21.3050195@post.demon.co.uk>
References: <1828.208.28.190.37.1029632377.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <14prlukovr8b9uqj0u65dbd1sajo6rno6g@4ax.com>
 <20020816232302.6238.63480.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <14prlukovr8b9uqj0u65dbd1sajo6rno6g@4ax.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020817090545.009eb100@mindspring.com>
 <1828.208.28.190.37.1029632377.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020818094331.009e6d60@mindspring.com>

At 12:30 PM 8/18/02 +0000, you wrote:
>hal@buffnet.net writes:
>
> >First off, I'd construct a LOT of intelligence scout ships that wait on
> >the outskirts of Zhondani systems within jump distance of Imperial
> >borders.  These scouts would then act as trip wires as they watch for
> >massed fleet build ups.
>
>Bear in mind that if the scout ships are registered to the IN or IISS,
>the Consulate would be perfectly justified in considering this to be
>an act of war - and if they're civilian ships, they're spying and the
>crews are presumably liable to execution if caught...  If the Imperium
>_wants_ to provoke a war with the Consulate, this seems a good way of
>going about it.

Of course there will be freighters owned by shell companies that have very 
large antenna arrays on both sides.  Both sides know these are ELINT 
vessels, and practise spoofing them.

What if the Zhodani conduct regular fleet exercises, and twice a year
>for 10 years 100 ships appear in that border system?  How will the
>scouts (and their Naval Intelligence handlers) know that _this_ time,
>it's for real?  How long can you stay at war alert status?

Based on NATO/WP relations, it is normal to announce that large excericses 
are being planned, and invite observers from either the other side or a 
neutral nation.  So when the Imperium runs RAPID RECALL 1104, there will be 
a handful of official Zhodani observers making sure this isn't an invasion 
fleet.

>For that matter, what if the Zhodani fleet assembles at an uncharted
>star or a fuel dump in deep space?

Things like this keep admirals awake at night.

Remember that the first news we had of the 5FW was a Zho fleet appearing at 
Ruie.  And we only knew that because a detached duty scout happened to be 
in system with the fuel to jump.  Even so, the ship was battle 
damaged.  Had that ship *not* been on site, the first sighting would have 
been when the perfidious Zhodani broke jump in Regina!

-- 

Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.
gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Author of GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces
Geek Code: tc tm tn- t4-- tg++$ ru ge+ 3i+@ c+
            jt- au pi he+ as+ so-                           



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 11:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Aug 18 10:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <m3hehtt33p.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817092651.009de420@mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020817092651.009de420@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020818095237.009e16a0@mindspring.com>

At 06:36 PM 8/17/02 -0600, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
> >
> > 4.5 wars in 500+ years.  By your logic we should *immediately* nuke
> > Germany.  They've started two devastating wars in the last 100
> > years.  Remember that to the average Imperial citizen before 1107,
> > the Frontier Wars were either history or that joke of a war that
> > happened 20 years ago.
>
>But history moves more slowly in Traveller than it does IRL.  Just as
>a rule of thumb, let's assume that the one-week travel time is
>equivalent to the time it'd take to cross two average modern US
>states--for the sake of argument, let's assume that's six hours.  That
>means that time and travel in the Imperium are slowed down by a factor
>of 1/28, s.t. those 500 years are about 18 years.

Sorry, but I don't buy this.  Even with the longer life spans you get in 
the far future, the 1st and 2nd wars are as remote as the English Civil War 
is to us.  Example:  My great-grandfather fought in the Boer War.  I have 
his medals, and the book made of the collected newsletters produced by the 
besieged British troops at Ladysmith.  Other than that, the war means 
nothing to me.

News travels slowly, but even in the days before the X-Boat service, the 
Emperor would hear about the wars in several months at worst.  Hence the 
reliance on local noblility and commanders.  To the people of the Marches, 
it has been 500 years.  I imagine the people of the trailing areas could 
care less about brush-fire wars on the far edge of the Imperium.  On the 
Solomani Rim?  Ha!  They'll tell those provencial idiots something about 
real wars!

>And if Mexico had invaded & freed several counties of Texas, New
>Mexico & Arizona five times in the last twenty years, I'm fairly
>certain that we'd be contemplating elimination of the problem.

Except it wasn't twenty years.  It was 500.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 11:16:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug 18 10:16:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Rockheads
Message-ID: <14c.129ff25d.2a91303f@aol.com>

>>     It is my belief that the uwp could be improved upon.
>

Not to sound catty, but my prefered way to improve upon the *format* of the 
UWP is through a format expansion technique already part of Traveller. This 
ancient and arcane technique is called Library Data.

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 11:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sun Aug 18 10:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Names of Tigresses
In-Reply-To: <3D5EDD0D.11267.151AECC@localhost>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208180340140.16440-100000@ask.diku.dk>
 <20020818011804.24991.62249.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020818122125.00af4a70@minn.net>

At 11:32 PM 8/17/2002 -0500, Shadowcat wrote:
>I'd at least use the "Grumman Cats"
>Tigercat
>Wildcat
>Bearcat
>Tomcat

I could use these names for the "Batch 2" series of Tigresses.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 11:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun Aug 18 10:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] View before eating
Message-ID: <F258spDKicUbvBDxroC000103e6@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     My apologies for AGAIN mixing personal e-mail with the List's business. 
  Fortunately, thanks to Mr. Glenn's superb List management efforts, all of 
you spared a color photo of yours' truly in swimming togs. (shudder)


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 12:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun Aug 18 11:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Names of Tigresses
Message-ID: <F128bLYluLCTaogxLDp000000ce@hotmail.com>

From: Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>

     "I had a look through the Encyclopedia Brittanica and found some names 
for Tigress Class Dreadna/oughts. Not nearly enough (if there are 17-18 
8-ship Tigress BatRons, then there are about 140 Tigresses), but you may 
find them useful. IMO the more euphonious names would have been used first."


Mr. Rancke-Madsen,

     Along with shanghaing the female name of every large hunting "cat" in 
the Imperium, how about simply appending the name of a major (hi-pop or 
otherwise significant) world to the vessel in question?
     Thus, we'd have a Regina Tigress, a Mora Tigress, a Glisten Tigress, 
etc.  Vessels built to operate within certain sectors would use system names 
from that sector.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 12:21:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Sun Aug 18 11:21:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <3d5e36c8.6019642@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <4EC81CD0-B2D7-11D6-A6C4-000502884755@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

On Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 05:09 AM, Stephen Tempest wrote:

> (Of course the crews might grumble a little, but introduce a few of
> the disciplinary policies from the Age of Sail as well and they'll
> soon settle down...)

Not if the officers want to sleep at night.

First: Sailors in the Age of Sail were often kidnapped into service, and 
forced to remain in service for indeterminate amounts of time. (Read 
some Hornblower for background) It has been generally accepted that you 
can treat slaves however the heck you want, jets remember to keep one 
eye on 'em at all times.

Second. Sailors in the age of sail were there because, despite the name, 
this was more appropriately, "The Age of Only Slightly Less Muscle Power 
Required Than The Age Of Rowed Galleys".

Most sailors were there because they we unskilled labor, hauling lines, 
muscling cannon, or swinging a cutlass...a weapon designed to be 
effective in untrained hands...

This is not the case with a TL-16 warship; hell, it's not the case with 
a TL-8 warship.  You don't keep smart, technically trained people around 
by treating them like livestock.

Thirdly, inciting mutiny amongst crews armed with truncheons, cutlasses 
and perhaps muskets is one thing.

Inciting mutiny amongst crews armed with gauss rifles, nuclear warheads 
and spinal meson mounts are another.

--
Bruce Johnson

Wherever you go, there you are.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 12:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug 18 11:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Zhodani Frontier War Philosophy
Message-ID: <34.2bf4eb97.2a91406f@aol.com>

 >> Lenin said regarding the overthrow of the west: "Probe with
 >> bayonets.  Where you find steel, withdraw.  Where you find mush,
 >> continue."  I think the Zhodani are taking that statement one better
 >> and attempting to create mush.
 >
 >Lenin lost.

Actually, Lenin himself was successful.  Even so, taking your point -- if 
someone loses, do you think that that means that everything they said and did 
is invalid or untrue?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 12:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sun Aug 18 11:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Names of Tigresses
In-Reply-To: <20020818155103.20925.7938.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208182027520.4627-100000@ask.diku.dk>

"Shadowcat" <res053z0@gten.net> writes:

>I'd at least use the "Grumman Cats"
>Tigercat
>Wildcat
>Bearcat
>Tomcat
>
>his royal furry magnifence Lord Fafrhd, votes for Coon Cat to be
>included, and demand another 500 chihuhuas as tribute for the
>slight if its not included

Tiger Tabby
Wild Tabby
Bear Tabby
Tabby
Coon Tabby

Hmm...

No, it just doesn't sound like _Tigress_ class names to me. YMM,
obviously, V.



Hans





From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 12:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Sun Aug 18 11:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Vilani Chess
In-Reply-To: <118.15eaa552.2a906bbd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <D9EBAC44-B2D9-11D6-A6C4-000502884755@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

On Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 08:17 PM, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

>> Well, Nine Man Morris is pretty darned old. And it's both simple and a
>> bear to get *good* at.
>
> 5,000 years in the future, the Vilani have probably conflated it into 
> "Nine
> Man Morris Dancing" . . .
>
> Or perhaps not   :  )
>
>
> I don't want to spend a huge amount of time on this kind of thing, but 
> people
> have been asking what games have survived, and I wanted to deal with a 
> couple
> in GT: Nobles.

Go, for one, and other 'capturing' games: chess, checkers, seem pretty 
basic game forms.

Also, most human societies have developed some form of game like Awele, 
or Mancala.  There have been some truly ancient game boards for those 
type of games found.

Backgammon, and even Parcheesi is a plausible variant of the same game: 
Move groups of counters around from place to place in response to some 
random event. You could stretch that to include Monopoly.

--
Bruce Johnson

Wherever you go, there you are.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 12:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sun Aug 18 11:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
References: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFGENIDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk> <m3y9b4syby.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <3D5FEB9A.E19387C7@mindspring.com>

"Robert Uhl " wrote:
> 
> "Peter Scarrott" <peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
> >
> > To expand on someone else's earlier comment (sorry hit 'delete' too
> > fast), the Consulate's main advantage is not having a large Empire
> > on any of it's other borders (ISTR).  Of all the large interstellar
> > governments we know about the Imperium is the only one with more
> > than one major neighbour.
> 
> I've ever assumed that it's just that we view the Far Future from the
> 3I's viewpoint, and that other empires live on the edges of the
> Imperium's neighbours.
> 
> > This would allow it to concentrate a sizeable proportion of its
> > armed forces against any Imperial attack; the Imperium can't reply
> > in kind due to the necessity of keeping large forces against the
> > Aslan, Solomani and too a lesser extent, against the Hivers, K'Kree
> > and Vargr.
> 
> That's one of the reasons I take the view I do.  It's a rather unfair
> and unrealistic view that the Imperium is the only polity which must
> deal with others.
> 
> --

IIRC the 6 major races (5 if you kick out the Aslan)theory takes care of
this. No other politys have FTL,(I can't recall why. Probably something
to do with Grandfather.) therefore are limited to
Bussards/Lightsails/Ion drive, etc.... Therefore no multisector empires
to worry about... If you believe in the six major races theory. YMMV. 

-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute.
That's relativity.
                               -Albert Einstein

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 12:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Sun Aug 18 11:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Zhodani tech development (Was: Victory in the Frontier Wars)
In-Reply-To: <3d61913b.4611769@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <15E48862-B2DC-11D6-A6C4-000502884755@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

On Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 05:30 AM, Stephen Tempest wrote:

> Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
>
>> No. At some point around -1000 they just decided to put a moratotium on
>> further expansion while they consolidated their present holdings. Since
>> then they haven't expanded much. Just why it would take them more than
>> 2000 years to consolidate is not explained anywhere.
>
> Because colonising new planets demands people who are individualistic,
> independent, rugged, and capable of being both ruthless and selfish
> when their survival demands it?

Only in RAH fantasies.

We've got no clue in how such "new planets" will be colonized.

We know that here on Terra 'new' lands were colonized by "people who are 
individualistic, independent, rugged, and capable of being both ruthless 
and selfish" because, in general, they were stealing the land from the 
people who were already there.
This tends to be an activity that attracts certain types of 
personalities.

Fundamentally you're dealing with a situation that we have zero 
experience with.

Certainly a world where people are restricted to habitats will not look 
for such people...they're likely to be a far greater threat than people 
who look to communal ways of solving problems.
>

> --
Bruce Johnson

Wherever you go, there you are.


--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/enriched
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 13:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moreton)
Date: Sun Aug 18 12:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
References: <4EC81CD0-B2D7-11D6-A6C4-000502884755@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <004501c246eb$7bb7d7e0$18130050@amoreton>

> Not if the officers want to sleep at night.
>
> First: Sailors in the Age of Sail were often kidnapped into service, and
> forced to remain in service for indeterminate amounts of time. (Read
> some Hornblower for background) It has been generally accepted that you
> can treat slaves however the heck you want, jets remember to keep one
> eye on 'em at all times.
>
> Second. Sailors in the age of sail were there because, despite the name,
> this was more appropriately, "The Age of Only Slightly Less Muscle Power
> Required Than The Age Of Rowed Galleys".
>
> Most sailors were there because they we unskilled labor, hauling lines,
> muscling cannon, or swinging a cutlass...a weapon designed to be
> effective in untrained hands...
>
> This is not the case with a TL-16 warship; hell, it's not the case with
> a TL-8 warship.  You don't keep smart, technically trained people around
> by treating them like livestock.
>
> Thirdly, inciting mutiny amongst crews armed with truncheons, cutlasses
> and perhaps muskets is one thing.
>
> Inciting mutiny amongst crews armed with gauss rifles, nuclear warheads
> and spinal meson mounts are another.

In the Royal Navy  conscription only occurred during wartime (of course much
of the for most of the time in the late 18th century and until 1815 was a
near constant state of war) , I have seen studies that suggests that most of
the press-ganging occurred only amongst sailors and was seen as something of
a risk of the trade , cetainly most people probably viewed it as no worse
than the current practice of conscription into the military practiced in
many nations today (France and Germany , America until recently Britain
between 1940 and the early 60's).
The Discipline onboard a warship while Harsh by modern standards was not all
that different form that in merhant vessels, the Army or civialian life
flogging and Hangings where accepted punishments as where even more brutal
punishments.
Mutinies where actually rather rare , there where two fleetwide mutinies
during the napoleonic wars by British seamen whch can be compared with a
modern strike as they where largely aimed at pay and conditions. There was
little violence in either and many of the demands in the first mutiny where
met by the admiralty .
The more typicaly imagined mutiny involving the killing of officers and the
like happaned rarely and was usualy caused by an officer who was
exceptionally cruel, capricous and sometimes insane . I am not aware of any
serious mutiny onboard a Royal Navy ship of the line but I beleive there
where a couple on Frigates and several on smaller sloops etc (such as the
HMS Bounty).
I qould agree that most of the crew on a sailing ship where unskilled ,
however many where highly skilled , it takes a fair amount of skill and
training to work the sails and lines of a sailing ship particualrly in bad
weather or under fire. Even those crew who where not particularly skilled at
line handling etc had important jobs and duties manning the cannon in
action. Evidence from the period shows that well trained and discuplined
crews (such as the British) would defeat larger and more powerful ships with
less well trained crews (spanish and French ).

On the final point I assume that the crew of most ships in the traveller
universe are routinely unarmed as they where in the age of sail as there is
no need to issue weapons unless the crew needs them for a boarding action or
similar


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 13:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sun Aug 18 12:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
References: <10e.15e6248e.2a911dc0@cs.com>
Message-ID: <3D5FF21B.18FDE29D@mindspring.com>

Damage169@cs.com wrote:
> 
> babyduck@mindspring.com writes:
> > Of
> > course its J3 M6 and heavily armed with a PA bay and the Whipsnade
> > configurable turrets.
> >
> 
> Apparently I missed this reengineering of turrets. Could someone please
> review this online, or at least point me toward a site with this information?
> Thank you
> 
> Doug Grimes
> 

LEW posited a system whereby turrets could be configured on the fly into
batteries for greater firepower on a single target or split into many
batteries to engage more targets. Or the way I thought they worked
before I carefully read the rules.
IMMTU they are available at TL12. In addition to the software required
to configure at will I charge
100 kw, 0.125 kl, 0.1 tons, 200 kCr per turret so equipped. The IN and
Navies of other powers have this standard.


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute.
That's relativity.
                               -Albert Einstein

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 13:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Aug 18 12:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817174119.009e28e0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEHFEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

So how do the areas occupied by the Zhodoni to support the core expeditions
fit into this?

I don't doubt that you are right Doug, I'm just asking what its based on.
Where does it say that the Consulate consists of 10 sectors? Is this GM
information or is it in game information.

IN other words: How much does the Imperium know about the Core Expeditions?
How engaged is the Consulate in the depot worlds it must be maintaining to
support the expeditions? Is it annexing any of these areas?

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2002 8:43 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets

At 08:22 PM 8/17/02 -0400, you wrote:
>This discussion seems to assume that the Consulate is smaller than the
>Imperium. I don't think that is true. I'm not sure how far it extends
>Spinward, but areas explored by the Consulate go very far coreward. Since
>they are supporting exploration in this direction and considering the
>logistics necessary for such travel they must have worlds extending very
>deeply toward the rim. It seems to me that the Consolate must cover many
>more sectors than the Imperium.

According the canon, the Consulate is smaller than the Imperium, covering
about ten sectors all told.


--

Duugirashir Irebamenagiin  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
Inquisitor Maximus, Reformed Canon Church of Sylea


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 13:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug 18 12:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Names of Tigresses
Message-ID: <f9.20de776a.2a9153f4@aol.com>

In a message dated 18/08/02 16:42:46 GMT Daylight Time, res053z0@gten.net 
writes:


I'd at least use the "Grumman Cats"
Tigercat
Wildcat
Bearcat
Tomcat

his royal furry magnifence Lord Fafrhd, votes for Coon Cat to be 
included, and demand another 500 chihuhuas as tribute for the 
slight if its not included


>>>>>>>>>>>>

Sorry to introduce an element of PC into this but I would feel deeply 
uncomfortable using "coon" as part of a ship name. While I'm aware that in 
the US it is a contraction of racoon, in the UK it is used as an insult 
directed at black people and belongs in the dustbin of history.

Apologise to Fafhrd for me :)

Charles

"All of us are creatures of a day; the rememberer and remembered alike"

Marcus Aurelius, Mediations IV/35

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 14:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun Aug 18 13:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Victory in the Frontier Wars
Message-ID: <F1328gRzpPWywCP6K8C00000fa3@hotmail.com>

From: Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>

     "Note that some people (me for one) believe that given the canonical 
description of the size, funding, and organization of Aslan _ihatei_ and 
Vargr corsairs, the effect described in MT is completely, utterly, 
willing-suspension-of-disbelief-shatteringly implausible."


Sir,

     While it would most likely not gain you additional adherents, you can 
count me in on that viewpoint.  The MT Alien Incursions are wildly absurd, 
so much so that I believe they invalidate everything that flows from them; 
specifically the condition of the Domain of Deneb throughout the Rebellion 
and Viral Era and generally the entire TNE timeline.
     I specifically joined the TNE Yahoo group in an effort to learn how 
they "explained" away the Incursions and learned nothing new.  They either 
ignored the implausible and absurd nature of the Incursions or presented 
circular arguments in their defense.
     As far as I am concerned, the Rebellion and Viral eras should be 
"oxbowed", designated an OTU alternate timeline, and SJG's No-Assassination 
timeline should become the official one.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 14:09:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Aug 18 13:09:51 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <3D5FEB9A.E19387C7@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNIEHGEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

This may be because there really are no "Major" races. The Vilani got Jump
Drive from Ancient artifacts found in their system after they achieved space
flight. The Terrans developed theirs from the Vegan trader that crashed in
New Mexico in the 1950's. We already know where the Aslan got theirs. The
Hivers found a variant design made by one of Grandfathers children. Etc.

This being the case as the Zhodani penetrate the core they might find that
there are no worlds which possess Jump drive, and that all, as you said in
your post. This would make our little corner of the galaxy unique.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost



IIRC the 6 major races (5 if you kick out the Aslan)theory takes care of
this. No other politys have FTL,(I can't recall why. Probably something
to do with Grandfather.) therefore are limited to
Bussards/Lightsails/Ion drive, etc.... Therefore no multisector empires
to worry about... If you believe in the six major races theory. YMMV.

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute.
That's relativity.
                               -Albert Einstein
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 14:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Sun Aug 18 13:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <20020818190006.10026.33198.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentr
 al.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020818220356.00a094d0@mail.pi.se>

>From: alan spik <babyduck@mindspring.com>
>
> > Tell me, if I came up to you and insisted that Sweden was a threat to our
> > way of life, what would you say?
> >
>
>
>Nuke em till they glow. I think there's a magazine article in that. :o

Charming.

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 14:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Sun Aug 18 13:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Damned Silly Questions
In-Reply-To: <20020818155103.20925.7938.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentra
 l.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020818130914.00b39360@mailhost.efn.org>

I'm going to make a guess that perhaps the in-joke Ms. Bates had in 
mind/hoped to make was based on the "randy" or 
"strutting/arrogant/maverick" connotations of Tomcat.  Unfortunately, the 
whole point is that those are traditionally male qualities... so even if 
they are present in a female of the species, they will not be implied in 
something as esoteric and old-fashioned as animal gender names.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 14:16:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Sun Aug 18 13:16:10 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <20020818190006.10026.33198.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentr
 al.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020818220356.00a094d0@mail.pi.se>

>From: alan spik <babyduck@mindspring.com>
>
> > Tell me, if I came up to you and insisted that Sweden was a threat to our
> > way of life, what would you say?
> >
>
>
>Nuke em till they glow. I think there's a magazine article in that. :o

Charming.

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 15:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sun Aug 18 14:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Answering the Damned Silly Questions
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020818130914.00b39360@mailhost.efn.org>
References: <20020818155103.20925.7938.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentra l.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020818160902.00af3b20@minn.net>

At 01:14 PM 8/18/2002 -0700, Kelly St.Clair wrote:
>I'm going to make a guess that perhaps the in-joke Ms. Bates had in 
>mind/hoped to make was based on the "randy" or 
>"strutting/arrogant/maverick" connotations of Tomcat.  Unfortunately, the 
>whole point is that those are traditionally male qualities... so even if 
>they are present in a female of the species, they will not be implied in 
>something as esoteric and old-fashioned as animal gender names.

The young lady that I based the character of "Lisa Holland" and I went to
the same schools for about ten years.

The schools were:

Holland Elementary
Sheridan Junior High.
Edison Senior High

The sports teams at Edison High were called the Tommies. "Lisa" was Captain
of the cheerleading squad.

"Lisa" also had four sisters.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 16:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Aug 18 15:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Victory in the Frontier Wars
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208180610130.24162-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEHIEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

I'm not really an adherent of the MT/TNE timeline but might not the
perception that lots of free (that is undefended) land now available in the
Imperium maybe cause the Aslan to ratchet up their support of ihatei fleets,
so as to unload a large number of unlanded males. So too could not the
corsairs see easy pickin's that might make them more bold. Lack of active
defense by the Imperial Fleets, who were to busy fighting each other to
interfere would make matters worse.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Hans Henrik
Rancke-Madsen
Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 12:15 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Re: Victory in the Frontier Wars

David P. Summers writes:
>At 3:13 PM -0700 8/16/02, Douglas R Glatz wrote:
>>Referring to the MT/TNE timeline, when the rebellion kicks off, the
Solomani,
>>the Vargr and the Aslan all cross Imperial borders and take territory.
While
>>there is no coordination in these actions, it is obvious that there *was*
the
>>military forces, and contingency plans, in place to take these actions in
>>reaction to a change in the status quo.
>
>This is "sort" of like it.  Except the Zhos never get into it and the
>Vargr and Aslan just start going unorganized raiding (though that has
>an effect)

Note that some people (me for one) believe that given the canonical
description of the size, funding, and organization of Aslan _ihatei_ and
Vargr corsairs, the effect described in MT is completely, utterly,
willing-suspension-of-disbelief-shatteringly implausible.



Hans

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 16:17:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Aug 18 15:17:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Zhodani Frontier War Philosophy
In-Reply-To: <15b.12b1d880.2a90e424@aol.com>
References: <15b.12b1d880.2a90e424@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3elcvq0c2.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

CHam628781@aol.com writes:
> 
> Forced collectivisation of land and centrally planned economics
> didn't really take off until 1928 under Stalin.  I humbly suggest
> that your opprobrium should be directed at Comrade Stalin, who was,
> IMHO, a much bigger bastard than Lenin.

Oh, they were both bastards.  Lenin was responsible for the deaths of
the Royal Martyrs, Stalin for the deaths of millions.  I _believe_
that the greatest persecution of Christians was under Lenin, but I
could be wrong; it's been quite awhile since I've studied the subject.

> I would also suggest that you avoid declaring Russia free until at
> least a hundred years have passed, it is too early yet to know how
> the dice will fall.

Point taken.  I'm fairly confident that it will not revert to
Communism, though.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Politicians and nappies should both be changed at regular intervals, and
for exactly the same reason.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 16:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Houghton)
Date: Sun Aug 18 15:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Lasers and sound
In-Reply-To: <200208170434.MYF00163@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208170434.MYF00163@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020818222310.GB19235@saltmine.radix.net>

Howdy!

On Sat, Aug 17, 2002 at 12:34:22AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
[snip interesting description]

> They seem to imply that the weapon is completely silent in 
> operation and effect, and the ideal weapon for close air 
> support.  The package was apparently demonstrated to SOCOM in 
> 1999.
> 
> But no sound -- 

<MARVIN>
Where's the Ka-Boom?
</MARVIN>

yours,
Michael
-- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 16:25:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Aug 18 15:25:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <4EC81CD0-B2D7-11D6-A6C4-000502884755@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <4EC81CD0-B2D7-11D6-A6C4-000502884755@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <m3adnjq00z.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:
> 
> Thirdly, inciting mutiny amongst crews armed with truncheons,
> cutlasses and perhaps muskets is one thing.
> 
> Inciting mutiny amongst crews armed with gauss rifles, nuclear
> warheads and spinal meson mounts are another.

LOL...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The cubic inch (1ci = 16.387cc) has been the traditional displacement
measurement of choice because 409 sounds better than 6702 in a song
(has there been a UK or European pop song about a sports car engine?).
                                                    --Peter Barrett

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 16:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Aug 18 15:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <3D60407A.27103.29B41BB@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817205659.009e5cb0@mindspring.com>
 <3D60407A.27103.29B41BB@localhost>
Message-ID: <m365y7pzyh.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> writes:
> 
> Sir, you obviously fail to understand the importance of maintaining
> the K'kree.  Not only are they an excellant distraction for the
> perfidious Hivers, but they are excellant with mint sauce.

LOL:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
So Microsoft's invented the ASCII equivalent to ugly ink spots that
appear on your letter when your pen is malfunctioning.
        --Greg Andrews, about Microsoft's way to encode apostrophes

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 16:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Houghton)
Date: Sun Aug 18 15:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
In-Reply-To: <20805.142332.0S0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <200207311718.LTT06680@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <20805.142332.0S0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020818223504.GC19235@saltmine.radix.net>

Howdy!

On Mon, Aug 05, 2002 at 02:23:32PM -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
[snip stuff RE DC]
> Of course not. The residents can't vote. 
> 
> Or did they at least get *local* elections a while back?
> 
The residents have no voice in congress, just as residents of US 
Territories (like Puerto Rico, etc.) don't, but none of the compensating
benefits (such as relief from some taxation).

DC did get "home rule" some time back, but is still expected to provide
services one would expect of a state as well as those of a city with half
(at least a big chunk) of the land that could yield tax revenue under
federal control and thus untaxable, and a congress that likes to use DC
as its whipping boy for their special interests.

yours,
Michael
-- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 16:37:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Aug 18 15:37:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Vilani Chess
In-Reply-To: <105.1a46b452.2a8c3ed3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNIEHJEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

Too bad. It would probably sell, at least as well as many of the Warehouse
23 small run properties.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of GDWGAMES@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 7:17 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Re:Vilani Chess

>One thing.  Change "poker chip" to some Vilani word for token

I'm assuming the actual pieces will have the citadel/rook constructed so the
Shadow-Emperor/king fits inside it or on top somehow. The poker chip thing
was just a temporary expedient.

Killing rumors before they start: Nobody at SJ Games knows of this besides
me
(unless they read the TML), so there are NO plans to actually produce this
game.

LKW
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 16:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Aug 18 15:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
In-Reply-To: <19d.71c6b86.2a8f276b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D60CD56.26512.203400@localhost>

On 17 Aug 2002 at 0:13, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> "The enemy is always peaceloving.  He would prefer to take our territory 
> unopposed."  Clauswitz.  But I would oppose them.

Well if you've read Clauswitz you'll also be aware that defence is 
stronger than attack.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 17:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Aug 18 16:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Damned Silly Questions
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020817091336.00a8d100@minn.net>
References: <3D5D8AAD.4507.237C6E@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D60CFCC.20856.29CDCB@localhost>

On 17 Aug 2002 at 9:13, Leslie Bates wrote:

> 
> I need to name a TIGRESS class dreadnought for parts 5 and 6 of Friends in
> High Places.
> 
> Is there a feminine form of tomcat? If so, what is it?

How about "Moggie". Actually it's "Queen" in cat breeding circles.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 17:02:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Aug 18 16:02:21 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <16b.124568c1.2a8f29fe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D60CFCC.23183.29CE07@localhost>

On 17 Aug 2002 at 0:24, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>  >All for a quixoic attempt to start a war 
>  >that nobody wants?
> 
> As everyone will recall, it is the Zhodani that are already starting wars 
> that nobody wants.

Wrong - they want them (in a limited and controlled way).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 17:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Aug 18 16:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817092651.009de420@mindspring.com>
References: <16b.124568c1.2a8f29fe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D60D187.26809.3093B1@localhost>

On 17 Aug 2002 at 9:30, Douglas Berry wrote:

> Tell me, if I came up to you and insisted that Sweden was a threat to our 
> way of life, what would you say?

"Are you a Russian?" of course.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 17:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Aug 18 16:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economics
In-Reply-To: <90.2a95b775.2a909c11@aol.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEHKEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

I've got to say that GURPS Traveller books, even with their possible
problems, are really the best sources of Traveller material available. As
good (or bad) as MT or TNE or T4 material might be it is simply not readily
available at this time to most. The number of copies are limited and as my
FLGS owner told me, "basically I only get that stuff when someone pries it
out of the owners cold dead hand or the spouse sells it off after the
divorce."

That being the case try to realize that quoting a book like Pocket Empires,
as a source is somewhat problematic. First it's T4 material, which is
generally considered to be rather poorly put together by many Traveller
players. Second it models the early Imperium so like Trillion Credit
Squadrons may not be said to accurately reflect the later Imperium, which is
after all a full millennium in the future of the period described. Thirdly
it is not available for direct research by many here, so if used as a source
your post might be better if it included a sizable quote of the relevant
material.

It was my original impression that Thrash, MacLean and Daniels did a good
job on Far Trader. Recent posts here have begun to convince me that perhaps
a certain amount of tweaking should be done to make trade in Core regions of
the Imperium higher while maintaining published levels in the frontier.
Since number from FT are used extensively in Starports (and I would assume
in Starships) I'm wonder how this would affect the designs in those books. I
suppose at the most it would merely mean that larger or more starport
facilities were needed for Core worlds, while the present numbers would
suffice for frontier regions.

Anyone want to do a Variant article for JTAS on this? That would at least
give us a common baseline for an alternate to the published GT materials.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 17:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 18 16:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Autodocs are starting to appear
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020818193057.015d0ad8@mail.charter.net>

http://www.lstat.com/

The Life Support for Trauma and Transport (LSTAT) is an individualized 
portable intensive care system and surgical platform providing 
resuscitation and stabilization capability through an integrated suite of 
state-of-the-art medical devices. It is a system solution to the need to 
decrease mortality, morbidity and disability by moving trauma care farther 
forward toward the site of an injury for improved diagnostics and 
therapeutics throughout the evacuation and treatment process. This same 
philosophy applies to both the military and the civilian community: provide 
early and continuous life support and sustainment throughout the continuum 
of care.

The third generation LSTAT, Model 9602, features a ventilator, suction, 
oxygen system, infusion pump, physiological monitor, clinical blood 
analyzer, and defibrillator. These medical devices are complemented with a 
fully network-capable on-board computer monitoring system and standalone 
power system all packaged together in the NATO litter form factor.

------------------------------------------------

TL 8?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
A well-educated electorate being necessary to the
prosperity of a free state, the right of the people to
keep and read books, shall not be infringed.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 17:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Aug 18 16:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Zhodani Frontier War Philosophy
In-Reply-To: <m38z35t2ks.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEHLEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

I don't think that the Imperium refuses to psionically adept individuals. I
believe that the Imperium's citizenry distrusts psionically gifted
individuals, and perhaps even the Imperial government's use of psionically
gifted individuals.

The 3I is not the modern western world, but it seems to share a lot of that
world's traits, one of those traits being the right to have a fighting
chance of doing something wrong and not getting caught. That means farmer
Joe doesn't want a psi reading his mind and telling his customer he's got
his hand on the scale, or Mrs. Maole doesn't want a psi reading her mind and
telling her husband about her little fling with the neighbor.

Worse if I'm miserable at my job then I don't want some mind raping psi
messing with my head so that I'm actually happy with what I'm doing. It's my
right to be miserable.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Robert Uhl
<ruhl@4dv.net>
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2002 8:48 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Zhodani Frontier War Philosophy

"Terry Carlino" <carlino@cox.net> writes:
>
> Could it be possible that the Zhodani are playing a waiting game?
> They might assume that eventually natural evolution will cause
> psionics to become a large enough percentage of the Imperium's
> population to force a reversal of the Imperium's policy on psionics
> (after all psionics weren't always banned).

That raises the whole issue of the Imperium's outlook on psionics.
I'm not certain that it makes a whole lot of sense, to tell the truth,
esp. when there's a violent neighbour who uses them.  We didn't stop
make nukes just because they were dangerous (although there were
plenty of halfwits who argued for it); why would the Imperium not
utilise psionically-apt individuals?

--
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The betterment of fools, Goethe tells us, is the appropriate business of
other fools.  The Underground Grammarian does not seek to educate
anyone.  We intend rather to ridicule, humiliate, and infuriate those
who abuse our language not so that they will do better but so that they
will stop using language entirely or at least go away.
                         --The Underground Grammarian
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 17:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Aug 18 16:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <m3wuqorbc7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817205659.009e5cb0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3D60DD68.10572.5EF951@localhost>

On 17 Aug 2002 at 23:21, Robert Uhl wrote:

> And would hopefully end in the utter extermination of the K'kree (the
> vegetarians, anywa--I understand the Hivers had some success in
> modifying their disease).  I loathe the K'kree.  The Zhodani may be
> annoying, the Hivers may be a nuisance, the Vargr may be a pest, must
> the K'kree must be destroyed.

I'm neutral on this, pending more intelligence on what they taste like.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 18:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Sun Aug 18 17:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: All Good Things...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020718120832.00a26960@minn.net>
Message-ID: <000201c24714$b7c90dc0$6401a8c0@GOCA>

To the person inquiring about the All Good Things thread - I have them
all, if you wish I could save/zip/email then to you.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Leslie Bates
Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 10:09
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: All Good Things...




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 18:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sun Aug 18 17:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Armed Merchant STORMBRINGER
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020818193057.015d0ad8@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020818191529.00af59d0@minn.net>

Ship: Stormbringer
Class: Stormbringer
Type: Armed Merchant
Architect: Leslie Bates
Tech Level: 15


AM-01143  STORMBRINGER  AF-2223321-000000-50000-0 MCr 93.830 200 Tons
   Batteries Bearing                     1       Crew: 5
   Batteries                             1       TL: 15

Cargo: 55. Passengers: 5 Fuel: 46. EP: 6. Agility: 0
Craft: 1 x 4T Air/Raft
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Architects Fee: MCr 0.932   Cost in Quantity: MCr 75.184

Detailed Description

HULL		200 tons standard, 2,800 cubic meters, Cone Configuration
CREW		Pilot, Engineer, Steward, Medic, Gunner
ENGINEERING	Jump-2, 3G Manuever, Power plant-3, 6 EP, Agility 0
AVIONICS	Bridge, Model/2 Computer
HARDPOINTS	2 Hardpoints
ARMAMENT	2 Triple Beam Laser Turrets organised into 1 Battery (Factor-5)
CRAFT		1 x 4 ton Air/Raft (Cost of MCr 0.600)
FUEL		46 Tons Fuel (2 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant
MISCELLANEOUS	10 Staterooms, 5 High Passengers, 55 Tons Cargo
COST		MCr 94.162 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 0.932), 
MCr 74.584 in Quantity, plus MCr 0.600 of Carried Craft
CONSTRUCTION TIME	57 Weeks Singly, 46 Weeks in Quantity
COMMENTS	TL-15 Armed and Fast Merchant, Mentioned in an episode of Friends
in High Places

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 18:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Aug 18 17:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Victory in the Frontier Wars
In-Reply-To: <F1328gRzpPWywCP6K8C00000fa3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D60E4E9.20601.7C4928@localhost>

On 18 Aug 2002 at 20:07, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

> Sir,
> 
>      While it would most likely not gain you additional adherents, you can 
> count me in on that viewpoint.  The MT Alien Incursions are wildly absurd, 
> so much so that I believe they invalidate everything that flows from them; 
> specifically the condition of the Domain of Deneb throughout the Rebellion 
> and Viral Era and generally the entire TNE timeline.
>      I specifically joined the TNE Yahoo group in an effort to learn how 
> they "explained" away the Incursions and learned nothing new.  They either 
> ignored the implausible and absurd nature of the Incursions or presented 
> circular arguments in their defense.
>      As far as I am concerned, the Rebellion and Viral eras should be 
> "oxbowed", designated an OTU alternate timeline, and SJG's No-Assassination 
> timeline should become the official one.

My take has always been that the 'incursions' into the Spinward Marches 
never happened (not the way MT has them, anyway). Corridor was cut off, 
not by corsairs, but by a real invasion by a coalition of Vargr states 
and warlords. Of course the coalition would've fallen apart fairly 
soon, but by then Virus had been released. As the cutting of Corridor 
only occurred to leave the Spinward Marches free for 'CT' style play in 
MT and TNE I don't see this as being that big a deal as my interest in 
TNE has always been centred on pocket empires and the Reformation 
Coalition.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 18:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sun Aug 18 17:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Rockheads
In-Reply-To: <20020818190006.10026.33198.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020818190006.10026.33198.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <vhf0mucaoffgth7o7jvk941jrll88rklca@4ax.com>

On Sun, 18 Aug 2002 12:00:06 -0700, GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:

>>>     It is my belief that the uwp could be improved upon.

>Not to sound catty, but my prefered way to improve upon the *format* of the 
>UWP is through a format expansion technique already part of Traveller. This 
>ancient and arcane technique is called Library Data.

Not to mention the alternative ways of encoding additional UWP data, as
found in the DGP World Builders' Handbook, and the Extending the UWP series
of articles in Doing It My Way at Freelance Traveller.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 19:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sun Aug 18 18:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNIEHGEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <3D60493F.BFDEC531@mindspring.com>

Terry Carlino wrote:
> 
> This may be because there really are no "Major" races. The Vilani got Jump
> Drive from Ancient artifacts found in their system after they achieved space
> flight.

Canon or alt.conspiricies.vilani

>The Terrans developed theirs from the Vegan trader that crashed in
> New Mexico in the 1950's. 

Canon or alt.conspiricies? ;)

> We already know where the Aslan got theirs. The
> Hivers found a variant design made by one of Grandfathers children. Etc.
> 
> This being the case as the Zhodani penetrate the core they might find that
> there are no worlds which possess Jump drive, and that all, as you said in
> your post. This would make our little corner of the galaxy unique.
> 
> Terry C
> All that is Gold does not glitter
> Not all who travel are lost
> 
> IIRC the 6 major races (5 if you kick out the Aslan)theory takes care of
> this. No other politys have FTL,(I can't recall why. Probably something
> to do with Grandfather.) therefore are limited to
> Bussards/Lightsails/Ion drive, etc.... Therefore no multisector empires
> to worry about... If you believe in the six major races theory. YMMV.
> 
> --

-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute.
That's relativity.
                               -Albert Einstein

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 19:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sun Aug 18 18:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
References: <5.1.1.6.0.20020818220356.00a094d0@mail.pi.se>
Message-ID: <3D604A05.40490B28@mindspring.com>

Tyge Sjstrand wrote:
> 
> >From: alan spik <babyduck@mindspring.com>
> >
> > > Tell me, if I came up to you and insisted that Sweden was a threat to our
> > > way of life, what would you say?
> > >
> >

Sorry, forgot tags. This is why I don't get paid for my computer skills.

<tounge_in_cheek>Nuke em till they glow.</tounge_in_cheek> I think
there's a magazine article in that. :o
> 
> Charming.
> 
> /Tyge
> 



-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute.
That's relativity.
                               -Albert Einstein

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 20:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Sun Aug 18 19:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <20020818033255.89A672793A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020819021101.34955.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Eris Reddoch <erisred@telocity.com> wrote:
> On 08/17/02 at 12:27 PM,  alan spik
> <babyduck@mindspring.com> said:
> 
> >No hot bunking except in emergencies.
> 
> I'd like to point out that if you have gravity
> control, you don't have
> to have "bunks", containment webbing will do. Stack
> 'em up like
> cordwood! <g>

While I wouldn't deny the legitimate gripes of those
who have spent lengthy time on a sailing vessel, I am
surprised that no one has mentioned the fact that the
crew onboard a starship doesn't have a deck to visit. 
There is something to be said to being able to go
"above" and have the open sky above you that you can't
do on a starship.  Still, you need to have a certain
amount of "personal" space, but the open deck is
something.

Paul

__________________________________________________
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HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 21:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sun Aug 18 20:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
References: <20020819021101.34955.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3D606207.25436D6B@mindspring.com>

Paul Walker wrote:
> 
> --- Eris Reddoch <erisred@telocity.com> wrote:
> > On 08/17/02 at 12:27 PM,  alan spik
> > <babyduck@mindspring.com> said:
> >
> > >No hot bunking except in emergencies.
> >
> > I'd like to point out that if you have gravity
> > control, you don't have
> > to have "bunks", containment webbing will do. Stack
> > 'em up like
> > cordwood! <g>
> 
> While I wouldn't deny the legitimate gripes of those
> who have spent lengthy time on a sailing vessel, I am
> surprised that no one has mentioned the fact that the
> crew onboard a starship doesn't have a deck to visit.
> There is something to be said to being able to go
> "above" and have the open sky above you that you can't
> do on a starship.  Still, you need to have a certain
> amount of "personal" space, but the open deck is
> something.
> 
> Paul
> 
>

This is true. My most enjoyable time underway was when I was able to
take in the scenery. Perhaps there are  wall screens on the mess deck,
given the TL they could reproduce almost anything with great
verisimilitude. I think frequent shore leave would be as good. A week in
port, almost any port, would last several months. I was never able to
partake in swim call as we were a "U.S. Naval Warship" and didn't have
time for such frivolous things. But I recall a story where floating at
the end of a tether in freefall was used as a way of stress relief.
Perhaps not all spacers would enjoy this. Not everyone wanted swim call.


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute.
That's relativity.
                               -Albert Einstein

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 23:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Sun Aug 18 22:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Human Nature or 'WWRD' or 'WWAD'
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020818090531.02500c00@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKECIENAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Note that the IISS is subject to mobilisation in times of war (possibly
other times as well) and scout squadrons are placed under navy control (a
fate worse than death for a freedom loving scout!) Given the combat value of
most scout vessels they are likely to get all sorts of "interesting"
missions. Then the question arises, given scout intelligence sources do they
have their Kokirrak class battleships sent on five year expeditions when
they believe war is coming?

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Hal
Sent: Sunday, 18 August 2002 9:16 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Human Nature or 'WWRD' or 'WWAD'


Hello Stephen,




>Bear in mind that if the scout ships are registered to the IN or IISS,
>the Consulate would be perfectly justified in considering this to be
>an act of war - and if they're civilian ships, they're spying and the
>crews are presumably liable to execution if caught...  If the Imperium
>_wants_ to provoke a war with the Consulate, this seems a good way of
>going about it.

of course it would be espionage.  Point is?  They have to *catch* the
ships.  And the crews would be intel types or Scouts to begin with.  As it
is, IISS is NOT a military outfit - it is a civilian branch of stellar
survey activities.  ;)



> > If a system has only 24 system defense boats (all
> >likely trying to hunt down the scouts by the way) in it, and suddenly has
> >100 warships in it and needs to refuel for its push into Imperial
> >territory - wouldn't that be a sign for the Imperials to start moving
over
> >to war alert status?
>
>What if the Zhodani conduct regular fleet exercises, and twice a year
>for 10 years 100 ships appear in that border system?  How will the
>scouts (and their Naval Intelligence handlers) know that _this_ time,
>it's for real?  How long can you stay at war alert status?
>
>For that matter, what if the Zhodani fleet assembles at an uncharted
>star or a fuel dump in deep space?


For the military manuevers part - they need supplies to be transported.  A
fleet without transports isn't much of a threat.  A fleet with transports
is a threat.  As for the deep space fuel depots?  That is a definite issue.
;)


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TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 23:53:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Sun Aug 18 22:53:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Tech Levelling
In-Reply-To: <3d608f28.4080772@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPGECIENAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

A few years back we also exported enough steel into the USA to have a
whopping big tariff slapped on further imports. We also export information
(read inventions created here then sold off overseas).

Oh yes we also export troops (I read somewhere that more of our combat ready
troops are overseas than at home.)

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Stephen Tempest
Sent: Sunday, 18 August 2002 8:31 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Tech Levelling


Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com> writes:

>
>And what _does_ Australia export?  And to where?  I don't see very much of
>anything that has 'Made in Australia' on it...
>
Off the top of my head, I'd say wool, mutton, and minerals.  Oh, and
beer.  And daytime soap operas.  And Kylie Minogue.

Having looked it up, I see that I can add beef and wheat to that list,
and that Australia in 1990 exported about $40b from a GNP of $240b
(17%), mostly to Japan (27%) and the US (11%).

Stephen
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TML@travellercentral.com
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 23:54:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Sun Aug 18 22:54:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Names of Tigresses
In-Reply-To: <F128bLYluLCTaogxLDp000000ce@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPIECIENAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Based on the names of the Kinunir class the most likely deployment for a
ship called Regina Crouching Tiger or Glisten Pantheress would be Terra.
After all the Kinunirs are named for worlds in the Solomani Rim and based in
the Spinward Marches.

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Larsen E. Whipsnade
Sent: Monday, 19 August 2002 2:01 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Names of Tigresses


From: Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>

     "I had a look through the Encyclopedia Brittanica and found some names
for Tigress Class Dreadna/oughts. Not nearly enough (if there are 17-18
8-ship Tigress BatRons, then there are about 140 Tigresses), but you may
find them useful. IMO the more euphonious names would have been used first."


Mr. Rancke-Madsen,

     Along with shanghaing the female name of every large hunting "cat" in
the Imperium, how about simply appending the name of a major (hi-pop or
otherwise significant) world to the vessel in question?
     Thus, we'd have a Regina Tigress, a Mora Tigress, a Glisten Tigress,
etc.  Vessels built to operate within certain sectors would use system names
from that sector.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 01:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Mon Aug 19 00:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <m3lm75t3fa.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFMEOLDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

Thank you for this (and Eris who mailed me offlist); I had realised that it
was baseball and figured some stuff from that after reading the more recent
posts.

I used the original post on my players at the weekend, telling them it was a
piece of intel gathered from the ruins they are investigating.  Basically it
was the only translated text they had managed.  the players are now heading
out towards first contact with this as their only clue to the psycology of
the species.  I have to say that it is amazing to see where they have taken
the info; no-one has mentioned sport yet and they are all a flutter planning
out how they are going to deal with this alien race.

Man I love Traveller and the TML this little post has started an entire new
arc of my campaign (Hell as always the players ideas of what this means are
soooo much more fun than mine.  :)

BTW They have somehow decided that Barry Bonds is a war leader or codeword
for a warship or warplan.


> -----Original Message-----
> On Behalf Of Robert Uhl
> <ruhl@4dv.net>

> "Peter Scarrott" <peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
> >
> > All kidding aside I am truly baffled.  I take it on faith that
> > someone (Barry Bonds I guess) has achieved an impressive sporting
> > milestone, for which I congratulate him, but I still don't have the
> > faintest idea what the conversation was about.
>
> He exceeded some heretofore unexceeded number of home runs.  A home
> run is when in baseball one is able to hit the ball and run around the
> diamond (square-shaped baseball track) back to home plate (the spot
> from which one hits the ball) without having to stop.  It's accounted
> a Good Thing.
>
 -  -  Big snip - - - -  -

Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.
I need to remember details like that, until we get to know each other
better.  Some men get so nervous if a lady shows up at the restaurant with a
box of explosives. - Florence, www.purrsia.com/Freefall , 7th Dec 2001


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 03:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Mon Aug 19 02:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : Autodocs are starting to appear
Message-ID: <000001c24763$e9360080$7b9d67cb@robert>

Mark Urbin wrote (of a nifty transport system):-
> TL 8?

Only the blood analyzer (if it does more than blood gases) and computer
hardware (the PDA interface and network capabilities look nifty).

The other components are TL 7 or late 6, using the US space program as 
a yardstick.

It looks like there's space for multiple infusion pumps.

This would allow you to perform surgery under continuous IV anaesthesia
(TIVA). Kewl.

The big advantage this system has is that most of the necessary hardware
is
mounted on the stretcher.

The big disadvantage is that it may be a little too big for some of the
helicopters used in retrieval work.


Robert O'Connor
Medico, gamer


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 04:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Aug 19 03:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : Autodocs are starting to appear
In-Reply-To: <000001c24763$e9360080$7b9d67cb@robert>
References: <000001c24763$e9360080$7b9d67cb@robert>
Message-ID: <20020819121048.065f0788.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Mon, 19 Aug 2002 19:36:35 +1000
Robert O'Connor <robocon@ozemail.com.au> wrote:

> This would allow you to perform surgery under continuous IV
> anaesthesia(TIVA). Kewl.
> 
> The big advantage this system has is that most of the necessary
> hardware is
> mounted on the stretcher.

I get the strangest images of a surgeon running beside the stretcher as
it is rushed away to the transport...

But seriously...

At what TL would one expect to see automated emergency surgeons? I'm
thinking something along the lines of the boxes used in
http://www.schlockmercenary.com

A box, roughly a large coffin. Put a person into it, and the most
threatening wounds are taken care of. The box acts as respirator,
surgeon, and diagnostic system.

Off course the capabilities of such a box would depend on the TL, but
when would they start to appear?

And when would they be able as fixed pieces of a building or starship? I
guess one TL earlier. That concept makes for some interesting scenarios,
like the sole survivor of some catastrophe managing to crawl into the
box and pass out there, escaping almost certain death.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 04:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon Aug 19 03:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] [www] 18 Aug 2002 - Freelance Traveller Updated
Message-ID: <m5j1mu8ku1br271boe30u7ki2itjc9pkpn@4ax.com>

Freelance Traveller, the Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource has
posted its most recent update to http://www.freelancetraveller.com,
and http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller, and our mirror at
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller.

In this update:

 - Minor link fixups have been made throughout the site. 

 - The Prologue and first part of Leslie Bates's serial story, Friends In
   High Places, can be found in Raconteur's Rest. 

 - Leslie Bates also brings the Cobra-class Close Escort to the Shipyard. 

 - Ken Pick returns to the Shipyard with the Fram, Burke, and Foible-class
   Destroyers and Variants. 

 - We didn't get to put in as big an update as originally planned. More to
   come, real soon. 

Your questions, comments, and ideas are always welcome at Freelance
Traveller.  Please write to editor@freelancetraveller.com with any and all
of them, or use the feedback form at .../infocenter/feedbackform.html.
Freelance Traveller depends on the good will of Traveller fans both to
visit our site and justify our existence, and to write for us, making our
existence possible.




Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture 
Enterprises, 1977-2000.  Use of the trademark in 
this notice and in the referenced materials is not 
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.freelancetraveller.com
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
editor@freelancetraveller.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 06:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Mon Aug 19 05:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
In-Reply-To: <3D60CD56.26512.203400@localhost>
References: <19d.71c6b86.2a8f276b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D618968.23102.CCFF86@localhost>

On 19 Aug 2002, at 10:49, Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> On 17 Aug 2002 at 0:13, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> > "The enemy is always peaceloving.  He would prefer to take our territory
> > unopposed."  Clauswitz.  But I would oppose them.

> Well if you've read Clauswitz you'll also be aware that defence is 
> stronger than attack.

My one page summary of Clauswitz also tells me that you can't win a war 
on the defensive.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 06:15:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Mon Aug 19 05:15:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Damned Silly Questions
In-Reply-To: <3D60CFCC.20856.29CDCB@localhost>
References: <3.0.6.32.20020817091336.00a8d100@minn.net>
Message-ID: <3D618968.26532.CCFF86@localhost>

On 19 Aug 2002, at 11:00, Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> On 17 Aug 2002 at 9:13, Leslie Bates wrote:

> > Is there a feminine form of tomcat? If so, what is it?

> How about "Moggie". Actually it's "Queen" in cat breeding circles.

Yes, I can see the scene now. The sector admiral has just been informed 
of the name allocated to the latest dreadnaught to be assigned to his 
command.

"Leuitenant, I don't care how historicially accurate it is or how 
eyntomologically correct it is. We are NOT going to call the pride of the 
Sector fleet "Moggie"!


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 06:16:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Mon Aug 19 05:16:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Zhodani tech development (Was: Victory in the Frontier Wars)
In-Reply-To: <15E48862-B2DC-11D6-A6C4-000502884755@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <3d61913b.4611769@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3D618968.15874.CCFF7C@localhost>

On 18 Aug 2002, at 11:55, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> We've got no clue in how such "new planets" will be colonized.

> We know that here on Terra 'new' lands were colonized by "people who are
> individualistic, independent, rugged, and capable of being both ruthless
> and selfish" because, in general, they were stealing the land from the
> people who were already there. This tends to be an activity that attracts
> certain types of personalities. 

> Fundamentally you're dealing with a situation that we have zero 
> experience with.

Not quite. In historical times we have do one example (and AFAIK its the 
only example) of a large previously uninhabited land coming under human 
colonisation; New Zealand. The first human colonisation only began around 
800 years ago.

>From what we've been able to reconstruct from archeology and the oral 
traditions of the Maori, the primary requirement of colonisation was not the 
"rugged individualist" but tightly knit cooperative communities (one might 
also mention the mass extinction of over 50% of native species and the 
total destruction of our megafauna, but one may assume that future 
interstellar colonists would be somewhat more environmentally aware).


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 06:22:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Mon Aug 19 05:22:04 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <F161G4yBt9tmFbklhaD000073a8@hotmail.com>

Earlier this month I had the pleasure of a day-trip to
the Cape Fear, North Carolina area.  I heartily recommend
the aquarium at Fort Fisher, and the historical site at
the remaining portions of the fort itself was a good
visit as well.  However, the best part of the trip
was about four hours spent exploring the battleship
USS North Carolina in Wilmington, NC.

They've done a great job on the ship, opening up
large areas of it to a self-guided tour.  I probably
could have spent a whole day there.

Now, here's the part of the experience that made
me think of the TML: the experience of moving
around inside a large ship, and what it made me
think of in terms of starship design, deckplans
and role-playing.

Large-scale structures made quite an impression -
structures that existed right through the ship,
the division of decks superimposed upon them
rather than the other way around.  Weapon mounts
that were armored towers reaching from the keel to
the top deck.  Machinery rooms with huge engines,
wire mesh decking stretching here and there from hull
to multi-story boilers and turbines.

In the gun director room there was a small ladder
running up a bulkhead.  Above, a hatch the size
of a small pizza opened into a thin tube that
stretched to another hatch some six decks above - access
to wiring runs between the gun director room and
the sensor arrays high above the waterline, and
a tenuous emergency escape route.

Multiple control and information spaces, scattered
(it seemed) all over the ship.  One of the "bridges"
(the Conning Tower) was a cramped compartment wrapped
in 16 inches of armor.  Other control spaces were
right in with what was controlled - you could steer
the ship, if you had to, from either the port or
the starboard rudder control rooms, with nothing
more than a string of guys shouting headings back
to you from the bow.

Crewmen sometimes were quartered in their workspaces.
Some ship's shops had "business hours", and would be
closed and quiet at other times - the crewmen who
worked there could fold down their racks from the
bulkhead and sleep in relative peace.

No such thing as a passageway, if possible.  Yes,
this long, narrow space connects point A to point B,
but it isn't a passageway, it's the Port Casualty
Power Room (where cables and connections are available
to reroute power in case of damage).  Any large public
area (mess decks especially) will double as passageways.

Things that are only used in port.  The museum people had
set up a "Wishing Well" in one of the mess decks - a large
hatch in a corner was open, they'd put a grating over it
so you could look down through other open hatches all
the way to the keel.  Above your head, connecting to
the main deck above, was another large hatch.  When
at sea, these hatches were sealed and probably ignored.
When in port, these hatches were used to move powder
and shells to magazines deep within the hull.  There
were also dockside power connections that were (of course)
port-use only, and different procedures for seaplane
launch if they were sitting in port instead of under way.

The feeling of closeness.  My younger son got a little
scared part-way through the tour, as daylight was so
far away, and there were a lot of stretches where your
line of sight was ten feet or less.  The heavily armored
areas (turrets, and the aforementioned Conning Tower)
were positively claustrophobic, of course.

They had a set of drawers in the museum area, each one
with the plans for a deck of the ship - I would have
loved to get a copy, being a deckplans afficionado.

I'm sure there are military people on this list who
have spent months or years under the decks of large
ships, and could add to this if they'd like to...I
just wanted to share some impressions from a person
taking their first real tour of the innards of a very
large warship.  The ObTrav struck me while I was there,
thinking of what the innards of space stations and
battlecruisers might be like.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 06:39:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Houghton)
Date: Mon Aug 19 05:39:04 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <F161G4yBt9tmFbklhaD000073a8@hotmail.com>
References: <F161G4yBt9tmFbklhaD000073a8@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020819123853.GA8753@saltmine.radix.net>

Howdy!

Another ship I'd like to visit is the New Jersey, tied up on the Camden
waterfront near the Ben Franklin bridge and across the river from
the Olympia. I'm told that the tour is self-guided and the ship is
pretty open.

Here in DC, we have the USS Barry, a retired destroyer that has Vietnam
service ribbons among its honors (along with Cuban blockade service).
The tour is also self guided, but rather linear. Still, the same kinds
of space constraints Walt noted on the North Carolina are evident. 

yours,
Michael

-- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 07:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Aug 19 06:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The Frontier Wars; The other side of the hill
Message-ID: <F202lQ0zSp8XVOEOEVX0000e78a@hotmail.com>

From: Flykiller@aol.com

    "Were there any who didn't?  I suppose the Vargr and the Aslans consider 
themselves to be content with _their_ borders -- not to mention the Zhodani 
themselves, who have been absorbing Imperial worlds for 500 years now."


Sir,

    Well, 500 years ago (the 600's), the Zho's absorbed Imperial colonies in 
regions they considered their own.  Roughly 200 years ago (the late 900s) 
they ensured that certain worlds were released from the Imperium, but have 
made no (overt) moves to abosrob them.  So I wouldn't exactly say they've 
been "absorbing Imperial worlds for 500 years now".  Sure, it's one way to 
spin the story, but it doesn't hold up upon scrutiny.
    That being said, I'd much rather live in the Imperium than the 
Consulate, my mind is my own thank you very much.  However, when it comes to 
the Frontier Wars I can understand both sides of the issue.
    The Consulate expanded to reach it's present size in roughly -1000 
Imperial.  Every alien module and timeline from CT to GURPS states this.  
The Consulate is at the size that it feels it can control with it's 
particular form of government.  This doesn't mean that the Zhos don't fiddle 
with states beyond their borders to ensure less threatening neighbors, but 
it does infer that they are a satisfied state.  Major land grabs are a part 
of their past.  Besides, any exploration and colonization fervor is 
channeled into the Core Expeditions.
     So, the Zhos had colonies in "cherry-picked" systems in the Spinward 
Marches, Foreven, and Z-something Sectors by -1000.  The Vargr in the area 
could be handled, the Swords were too small and too busy squabbling to be a 
threat, and the Darrians had shot themselves in the foot by -924.  The 
Consulate could look forward to a continued and leisurely and consolidation 
of the regions they had ALREADY claimed and partially settled.
    Then in 60, the Third Imperium shows up.
    Between 60 and 589, Imperial settlers are like mice in the wainscotting. 
  They've set up colonies, bases, outposts, and whatnot throughout the 
Marches and on into Foreven and Z-something.  There's plnety of empty room 
in the Marches, but the Imperials insist on settling in the regions already 
claimed by the Consulate. (Perhaps drawn by the trade opportunities?)
    The varying systems and territories claimed by the two empires actually 
interpenetrate.  When the Consulate begins to insist on it's borders, 
tempers flare.  There are some suggestions that Imperial colonials kicked 
off the First Frontier War, especially in BtC, and their actions drawing 
both empires into conflict.
    Also, don't forget that the Third Imperium isn't rabidly anti-psionic at 
this time.  The Suppressions don't begin until 800.  This fight is simply 
about land, Imperial propagandists most likely haven't invented the term 
"mind raping scum" yet.  The Consulate is watching systems they've claimed 
for over a millenium being squatted on by more and more Imperial settlers.
    Step out of your Imperial boots for a moment and ease into some Zho 
slippers.  You've been in the region for a thousand years, slowly developing 
it and building it according to your needs and plans.  Then some pushy types 
show up, ignore your very presence, and claim the area for their empire.  
What would you do?
    All things considered, the Consualte's response as been extremely 
measured.  If I had been the Chief Turban at the time, I would have been 
tempted hammered the Third Imperium all the way back to Corridor.  The Zho's 
didn't do that, all they did was evict the Imperium from previously claimed 
Consulate territory, start to build a good fence, and then ensure that the 
Imperium stayed on it's side of the border.
    Let me spin a Real World analogy.  It's the mid-1840's on the North 
American continent.  Mexico claims and has sparsely settled quite a bit of 
territory in the west.  US colonists have been drifting into that region for 
decades now, even detaching part of it, Texas, as an independent nation. (a 
new nation that allowed slavery, unlike Mexico)  Now US colonists are 
filtering into California and the Southwest, squabbling with the Mexican 
officials there.  The US government is in the process of absorbing 
independent Texas too.  The writing is on the wall.  What would you do if 
you were Mexican?  What would you do if you were Zhodani?
    Let's take my analogy into the realm of alternate history.  Tweak Mexico 
enough to make it a viable concern and tweak the US enough to weaken it 
sufficiently.  The US annexes Texas and the war kicks off.  The Mexicans 
hold their own, even sending US settlers in California and the Southwest 
packing back to the States.  The poor showing by US forces causes political 
trouble at home.
    Tyler feels he isn't being supported enough (most of the war effort was 
carried by the South as New England and the Old Northwest correctly viewed 
the war as a landgrab by slavers).  Exhausted, he signs a ceasefire with the 
Mexicans, leaving the border essentially unchanged, and accepting the 
eviction of US settlers.  The Mexicans, also exhausted, accept both the 
ceasfire and acquiesce to Texas' admission to the Union... for now.
    Tyler then marches on Washington with his army to confront Polk, shoots 
that President, declares himself President, and is eventually shot in 
return.  The period of the US Barrack Presidents begins.
    Meanwhile, Tyler left a subordinate behind in Texas, one R.E. Lee.  
After a decade or so of civil strife in the States, he decides he must do 
something about it.  Unfortunately, sensing an opportunity in the current US 
Civil War, the Mexicans have returned for a second round.
    Lee fights them to a stalemate, but must cede more territory to Mexico 
as a price for another ceasefire.  (One actual point of contention was where 
Texas' southern border actually lay.  Texas and the US claimed the Rio 
Grande, the Mexicans wanted another, more northern, river.  Lee could cede 
parts of Texas between the Rio Grande and that river.)
    After "winning" the Second Mexican War, Lee marches on Washington, 
beating or absorbing whatever warlords' armies stand in his way, and shoots 
President-For-Life Whipsnade.  Instead of announcing he's the President, Lee 
settles in as the "Protector of the Constitution", gets the federal 
government up and running again, squashes any seperatist movements, and puts 
the Union back together.  After a few years and a census to work out 
congressional proportions, Lee runs for president and is elected in a 
landslide.
    By ~1855, the US' western border is the limit of the 1803 Louisiana 
Purchase plus a smaller Texas.  Mexico is striving to settle and build up 
California and the Southwest, plus looking for a way to ensure a secure and 
steady border with the US.
    To further follow the Frontier Wars model, the next war would detach 
Texas from the US and set it up as one or more independent nations, the 
Mexicans would support the Mormons and their nation in Utah, and there would 
be Mexican-US squabbles over the Oregon Territory (the Mexicans wishing to 
detach Oregon and Washington from the US and set them up as independent 
states, the US wishing to hold onto to those states.  Perhaps the port city 
of Seattle may become an open city like pre-WW2 Danzig or Esalin?)
    Now, keeping my flight of fancy in mind, who absorbed whose territory?  
Did the Zho's take over Imperial colonies, or did they take back their own 
territories, or did they do both of those things?  Who should be griping 
about whom?  Who has the better claim?  Suddenly things aren't so black and 
white anymore, are they?  Rather, it's a pretty muddle of gray.  Binary 
thinking is really boring.
    Before I sign off, I too admire you civility sir.  Even more so, I 
admire the questions and ideas you've presented.  Each one has made the List 
re-examine our own ideas and preconceptions and that is a VERY GOOD THING 
indeed.  Keep posting and keep questioning, sir, that is exactly what makes 
the TML so much fun!


    Sincerely,
    Larsen

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 07:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Mon Aug 19 06:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <F28AUfKRfcjcMzfoV1q000001d3@hotmail.com>

>From: "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>
>
>On 08/17/02 at 12:22 PM,  "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@pobox.com> said:
>
> >the way this fellow's accomplishment is being
> >expressed is in such game-related terms that only a devotee of the
> >game can tell what he's done that is noteworthy.
>
>
> >I am a devotee of said game, but I still don't understand the furor.
> >Its just Barry Bonds. Loud mouth and possibly baseball player. Its
> >not like he found a cure for Polio or something.
>
>LOL!
>
>Barry Bonds has never been a "lovable" player, but he has accomplished
>some remarkable feats the last few years, and hitting 600 homeruns in
>a career is an important milestone. I don't begrudge him his feat, or
>Giants fans their celebration.
>
>Eris,
>     baseball fan!

It was a bittersweet day when he left the Pittsburgh Pirates.  It was sweet 
cause he *NEVER* did anything for us in October!  Bitter, cause without him, 
they *NEVER* play in October!

Greg



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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 07:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Aug 19 06:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Tech Levelling
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPGECIENAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <3d608f28.4080772@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3D619C05.31658.F4338@localhost>

On 19 Aug 2002 at 13:40, Antony Farrell wrote:

> A few years back we also exported enough steel into the USA to have a
> whopping big tariff slapped on further imports. We also export information
> (read inventions created here then sold off overseas).

Lucky you. We simply get horrid quotas slapped on anything that really 
starts selling well.

Apparently we're a deadly threat to the US steel industry (don't make 
me laugh), beef industry (not likely), lamb industry (they've got one?) 
and dairy industry (quite likely) and the answer is to limit us to a 
few thousand tons of exports to the US per annum. Then wonder why we're 
cynical about US 'free trade' initiatives.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 07:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Aug 19 06:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
In-Reply-To: <3D618968.23102.CCFF86@localhost>
References: <3D60CD56.26512.203400@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D619CE2.10405.12A22D@localhost>

On 20 Aug 2002 at 0:12, Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance wrote:

> On 19 Aug 2002, at 10:49, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> > On 17 Aug 2002 at 0:13, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> 
> > > "The enemy is always peaceloving.  He would prefer to take our territory
> > > unopposed."  Clauswitz.  But I would oppose them.
> 
> > Well if you've read Clauswitz you'll also be aware that defence is 
> > stronger than attack.
> 
> My one page summary of Clauswitz also tells me that you can't win a war 
> on the defensive.

That's not what my translation says - Clauswitz points out that 
Frederick the Great did just that, though he also points out that this 
was probably because the Austrians realised that he'd got to the point 
where he could have switched to the offense.

If you're willing to call a crusade a war quite a number were won by 
the defenders - the crusaders simply ran out of steam.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 07:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Aug 19 06:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <F2159TBbA4Y9Nt16gM40000c7e9@hotmail.com>

From: Michael Houghton <herveus@radix.net>

     "Another ship I'd like to visit is the New Jersey, tied up on the 
Camden waterfront near the Ben Franklin bridge and across the river from
the Olympia."


Mr. Houghton,

     The Olympia is an excellent tour.  IIRC, she was refurbished very 
recently.  I toured her earlier this year during a drive down to Virginia.

     "Here in DC, we have the USS Barry,..."

     There are several wonderful and historical ships open for tours in the 
US.  The USS Texas, the only dreadnought still in existance, is moored in 
the Houstan ship canal.  The remains of a sunken Union river ironclad are on 
display outside of Vicksburg.  Baltimore has the USS Constellation, a Civil 
War era sailing frigate.  Chicago has a WW2 German U-boat.  I'm extremely 
fortunate that Fall River, MA is only minutes away from the Whipsnade family 
manse.  Moored there in Battleship Cove is a BB, USS Massachusetts, a USN 
50's DD, a WW2 USN SS, a USSR missile corvette, and the national PT Boat 
museum.  Also close by is the first SSN, USS Nautilus.
     I suppose the biggest draw will be at Hampton Roads, VA.  The museum 
there has been raising portions of USS Monitor this summer.  The shaft and 
screw were recovered a few years ago, along with other relics.  The engine 
and TURRET!!! were recovered this summer.  Once those items are preserved, 
you'll be able to see the dents CSS Virginia's guns put in USS Monitor's 
turret back in 1862.
     Across the Pond, the UK also has many great vessels open for tours.  I 
especially enjoyed HMS Warrior.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
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http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 08:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Mon Aug 19 07:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Autodocs are starting to appear
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020818193057.015d0ad8@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <3D60FA6D.8000304@gmx.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:

> http://www.lstat.com/
>
> The Life Support for Trauma and Transport (LSTAT) is an individualized 
> portable intensive care system and surgical platform providing 
> resuscitation and stabilization capability through an integrated suite 
> of state-of-the-art medical devices. It is a system solution to the 
> need to decrease mortality, morbidity and disability by moving trauma 
> care farther forward toward the site of an injury for improved 
> diagnostics and therapeutics throughout the evacuation and treatment 
> process. This same philosophy applies to both the military and the 
> civilian community: provide early and continuous life support and 
> sustainment throughout the continuum of care.
>
> The third generation LSTAT, Model 9602, features a ventilator, 
> suction, oxygen system, infusion pump, physiological monitor, clinical 
> blood analyzer,

If  this part goes wrong: Vampire LSTAT anyone?

> and defibrillator. These medical devices are complemented with a fully 
> network-capable on-board computer monitoring system and standalone 
> power system all packaged together in the NATO litter form factor.
>
> ------------------------------------------------
>
> TL 8?

"You can get real scared thinking of all the things that can go wrong 
with an Autodoc" ...one of Niven's characters from somewhere in one of 
his books.

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 08:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Aug 19 07:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Tech Levelling
Message-ID: <F231KHRosXmhYkyNkj900002582@hotmail.com>

From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

     "Apparently we're a deadly threat to the US steel industry (don't make 
me laugh), beef industry (not likely), lamb industry (they've got one?) and 
dairy industry (quite likely) and the answer is to limit us to a few 
thousand tons of exports to the US per annum. Then wonder why we're cynical 
about US 'free trade' initiatives."


Mr. Boleyn,

     Surely New Zealand is a member of the WTO?  If so, file a protest with 
that organization and force arbitration.  The US and EU have been clubbing 
each other with WTO rulings, and forcing real changes in trade policies, for 
years now.
     The US opened the "closed" EU banana market (I'm not kidding) by 
overturning an EU ex-European colony banana preference policy.  The EU 
forced the US to drop export supports in the form of tax incentives for 
corporations.  Canada and the US are currently tussling over softwood 
imports, a WTO will eventually settle it.  Even Dubya's steel tariffs are 
working their way up the ladder towards WTO arbitration.
     Sure, it may take time, but every WTO signatory is sworn to abide by 
arbiters' decisions.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 08:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Mon Aug 19 07:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <F2159TBbA4Y9Nt16gM40000c7e9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020819141736.82635.qmail@web11008.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> From: Michael Houghton <herveus@radix.net>
> 
>      "Another ship I'd like to visit is the New
> Jersey, tied up on the 
> Camden waterfront near the Ben Franklin bridge and
> across the river from
> the Olympia."
> 
> 
> Mr. Houghton,
> 
>      The Olympia is an excellent tour.  IIRC, she
> was refurbished very 
> recently.  I toured her earlier this year during a
> drive down to Virginia.
> 
>      "Here in DC, we have the USS Barry,..."
> 
>      There are several wonderful and historical
> ships open for tours in the 
> US.  The USS Texas, the only dreadnought still in
> existance, is moored in 
> the Houstan ship canal.  The remains of a sunken
> Union river ironclad are on 
> display outside of Vicksburg.  Baltimore has the USS
> Constellation, a Civil 
> War era sailing frigate.  Chicago has a WW2 German
> U-boat.  I'm extremely 
> fortunate that Fall River, MA is only minutes away
> from the Whipsnade family 
> manse.  Moored there in Battleship Cove is a BB, USS
> Massachusetts, a USN 
> 50's DD, a WW2 USN SS, a USSR missile corvette, and
> the national PT Boat 
> museum.  Also close by is the first SSN, USS
> Nautilus.
>      I suppose the biggest draw will be at Hampton
> Roads, VA.  The museum 
> there has been raising portions of USS Monitor this
> summer.  The shaft and 
> screw were recovered a few years ago, along with
> other relics.  The engine 
> and TURRET!!! were recovered this summer.  Once
> those items are preserved, 
> you'll be able to see the dents CSS Virginia's guns
> put in USS Monitor's 
> turret back in 1862.
>      Across the Pond, the UK also has many great
> vessels open for tours.  I 
> especially enjoyed HMS Warrior.
> 
> 
>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen
> 
  >>
  Hmmmm.......All of the above pointing to the
existance of a, albeit
distictly-low-tech-yet-there-nonetheless, wet-service
battle squadron; all we need are the tankers.......

  Michael 'Tongue-firmly-in-Cheek' Cessna
  >>
>

__________________________________________________
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HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 08:21:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Aug 19 07:21:04 2002
Subject: While we're talking about games was [TML] Vilani Chess
Message-ID: <F228mc90CDW57XEJ8Wv00021b0f@hotmail.com>

From: John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

     "B  Declare Citizen by placing remaining citizen piece on a color 
square on your side the two pieces on board become that color piece for the 
game."


Mr. Lotz,

     Great game, sir!  I've put it together from bits of cardboard already.  
One question though, could you elaborate a bit on the set-up rule I've 
snipped above?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 08:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Aug 19 07:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The cloak
Message-ID: <F229e5b2h6uBq7AbJc500003d28@hotmail.com>

From: "Mark Urbin" <urbin@bigfoot.com>

     "The favorite obsuring garment of the ages.  From knights hiding their 
armor & swords to Kent Allard striking terror in the hearts of evil 
doers...it has been part of popular fiction."

     "How common are they in your Traveller universe?"


Mr. Urbin,

     Playing a little TML Catch-Up here...
     Cloaks are very common in the WTU and the hallmark of ship crew folk.  
Well before TNE's RCES body sleeve, I'd ripped off the same idea from Niven 
and Pournelle's "Mote in God's Eye."  While aboard ship, most crew folk wear 
a near full length, body hugging, pressure suit.  Hands and head are free, 
although the hood and gloves are permanently attached and simply rolled and 
tucked into specific pockets at the wrists and neck.
     Over this form fitting body suit, crew folk wear utility clothing, 
either work tunics and trousers or overalls.  The outer layer of clothing 
protects the skinsuit from wear and tear, besdies providing the wearer with 
pockets.
     Naturally, seeing something shaped like a Whipsnade stuffed into a 
man-sized, lycra-like, sausage casing can be extremely unappealing, thus the 
use of cloaks while off ship.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 08:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug 19 07:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <200208191429.NCQ00397@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Michael Cessna says
>  Hmmmm.......All of the above pointing to the
>existance of a, albeit distictly-low-tech-yet-there-
>nonetheless, wet-service battle squadron; all we need are 
>the tankers.......

As I mentioned before, in the UK it's possible to buy a lot 
of interesting "out of date" items.  If the list could put 
the money together, and get a UK buyer, we could, say, 
purchase a Vulcan bomber.

Quite unlike the US, who puts its aircraft into the desert, 
and chops them up for scrap.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 08:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Aug 19 07:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Old RICE Papers for use as "Landgrabs"
Message-ID: <F55XbR7SsyZ06pCqXLc0000cf31@hotmail.com>

From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au

     "For those interested in claiming worlds for the Landgrab, here is a 
list of worlds that have been documented as RICE Papers - that is, for TNE."


Mr. Jaques-Watson,

     Are these documents available at your fine website or should we ask for 
them directly from you?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 08:35:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Mon Aug 19 07:35:05 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <20020819103209.ac4dd7f1f52e45c684e69acce58c3181.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>     The Olympia is an excellent tour.  IIRC, she was refurbished very 
>recently.  I toured her earlier this year during a drive down to Virginia.

Yeah, they sort of had to otherwise the US Navy would have come back and
taken back the ship.

(I am in the Philadelphia region, so I get to visit not only the OLYMPIA but
also the NEW JERSEY, who has her Phalanx mounts unlike her sisters, AND
drive past the inactive ship facility at what use to be the Philadelphia
Navy Yard.)

PA also has the NIAGARA up at Erie.  Another fine ship.

>     There are several wonderful and historical ships open for tours in the 
>US.  The USS Texas, the only dreadnought still in existance, is moored in 

Technically, the NORTH CAROLINA, the MASSACHUSETTS, the ALABAMA, and IOWAs
count too...

>the Houstan ship canal.  The remains of a sunken Union river ironclad are on 

CAIRO, namesake of the class, and actually the entire ship is in a fine
state.  It was a pity they managed to let CARONDELET get destroyed during
the search for her.

>display outside of Vicksburg.  Baltimore has the USS Constellation, a Civil 
>War era sailing frigate.  Chicago has a WW2 German U-boat.  I'm extremely 

Civil War-era sloop, actually.  Part of the reason why Congress eventually
changed the laws to mandate a vote on appropriations regarding overhaul and
refitting of ships.

There is also an WW2 fleet boat there.

>fortunate that Fall River, MA is only minutes away from the Whipsnade family 
>manse.  Moored there in Battleship Cove is a BB, USS Massachusetts, a USN 
>50's DD, a WW2 USN SS, a USSR missile corvette, and the national PT Boat 
>museum.  Also close by is the first SSN, USS Nautilus.

The Boston Navy Yard at Charlestown also has the CASSIN YOUNG, a
FLETCHER-class destroyer from WW2.  It was closed due to rain when I was
there, but the tour guide who was waiting for the rain to stop was surprised
that one of us actually knew what kind of ship she was.

The heavy cruiser SALEM should also be near where you live.

>     I suppose the biggest draw will be at Hampton Roads, VA.  The museum 
>there has been raising portions of USS Monitor this summer.  The shaft and 
>screw were recovered a few years ago, along with other relics.  The engine 
>and TURRET!!! were recovered this summer.  Once those items are preserved, 
>you'll be able to see the dents CSS Virginia's guns put in USS Monitor's 
>turret back in 1862.

And explain to me how Nauticus managed to get the WISCONSIN moored next to
the building....

>     Across the Pond, the UK also has many great vessels open for tours.  I 
>especially enjoyed HMS Warrior.

If you are in London, you can go visit the BELFAST.  A truly magnificent
example of the light cruiser breed.

C.T.
"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 08:39:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Mon Aug 19 07:39:05 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <20020819103611.03f88f86231c45fdb43c46168bf6017f.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>Michael Cessna says
>>  Hmmmm.......All of the above pointing to the
>>existance of a, albeit distictly-low-tech-yet-there-
>>nonetheless, wet-service battle squadron; all we need are 
>>the tankers.......
>
>As I mentioned before, in the UK it's possible to buy a lot 
>of interesting "out of date" items.  If the list could put 
>the money together, and get a UK buyer, we could, say, 
>purchase a Vulcan bomber.
>
>Quite unlike the US, who puts its aircraft into the desert, 
>and chops them up for scrap.

Yeah, well the US does not have a choice in the disposition of strategic
bombers a la Vulcan.  That is part of SALT and other various arms control
treaties....

Besides, a lot of the aircraft are there until other nations need them,
either whole or parts.  There is no pressing similar need for Nimrod, or
Victor parts.

And look at how the RN is choosing to get rid of the 2 Type 22 frigates it
can not operate...

C.T.
"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 08:52:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Mon Aug 19 07:52:36 2002
Subject: While we're talking about games was [TML] Vilani Chess
In-Reply-To: <F228mc90CDW57XEJ8Wv00021b0f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEACIOAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

From: John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

     "B  Declare Citizen by placing remaining citizen piece on a color
square on your side the two pieces on board become that color piece for the
game."


Mr. Lotz,

     Great game, sir!  I've put it together from bits of cardboard already.
One question though, could you elaborate a bit on the set-up rule I've
snipped above?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

Mr. Whipsnade,

You see on the board the three blocks marked R G Y, the last citizen goes on
the
one of those blocks to let everyone know what the other two citizens are.
After the
citizen is declared, treat the citizens as a piece of the type.

In the history/explanation of Thashirudri I noodled up, this is thought of
as
training up your citizen in one of three professions, a worker, a merchant
or
a corporate specialist.

jml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 08:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon Aug 19 07:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Zhodani tech development (Was: Victory in the Frontier Wars)
In-Reply-To: <3D618968.15874.CCFF7C@localhost>
References: <3d61913b.4611769@post.demon.co.uk>
 <3D618968.15874.CCFF7C@localhost>
Message-ID: <m3ptwerjfd.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> writes:
> 
> In historical times we have do one example (and AFAIK its the only
> example) of a large previously uninhabited land coming under human
> colonisation; New Zealand.  The first human colonisation only began
> around 800 years ago.
> 
> From what we've been able to reconstruct from archeology and the
> oral traditions of the Maori, the primary requirement of
> colonisation was not the "rugged individualist" but tightly knit
> cooperative communities (one might also mention the mass extinction
> of over 50% of native species and the total destruction of our
> megafauna, but one may assume that future interstellar colonists
> would be somewhat more environmentally aware).

What, you mean indigenous peoples aren't gentle stewards of the
environment?  The Thought Police will be by shortly to re-educate
you:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A horse will usually shy from a plastic bin-liner in a hedge.
I don't know why; maybe tigers used to go around dressed in
bin-liners or something once.              --Dan Holdsworth

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 08:58:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Aug 19 07:58:04 2002
Subject: While we're talking about games was [TML] Vilani Chess
Message-ID: <F234FXfyY0QUUBPcZi7000206dd@hotmail.com>

From: John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

     "You see on the board the three blocks marked R G Y, the last citizen 
goes on the one of those blocks to let everyone know what the other two 
citizens are.  After the citizen is declared, treat the citizens as a piece 
of the type."


Mr. Lotz,

     Oooh, nasty!  I love it!  The citizen pieces on the board morph into 
other pieces at the end of the set-up.  Nice and twisty!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 09:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Mon Aug 19 08:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F167F@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

> He:  Quick Ditzie, to the Spof-cave.  When we are
> needed, the Commissioner will contact us using the 
> Spof-signal.
> 
> jml
> tune in next week when we hear Ditzie say:
> Now kids don't try this at home without lots of 
> of insurance ... real tolerant neighbors help too


ROFLMAO!!!!
Jesse

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 09:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shadowcat)
Date: Mon Aug 19 08:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Names of Tigresses
In-Reply-To: <f9.20de776a.2a9153f4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D5FCE99.1373.1F0F244@localhost>

The Maine coon cat gets its name from the legends that the breed 
originates from the mating of a raccoon with a domestic cat, which 
is genetically impossible, but at the time the name was coined, 
this wasnt even remotely known..

The apology is accepted, and to be quite honest, I find the concept 
of PC to be even more revolting and insulting than anything said 
about the issues involved.  it deserved a grave long ago, and I will 
happily spit upon and dance on it once its finally laid to rest. I feel 
that its an issue of personal accountability for ones own actions, 
and no government has the right to legislate this, beyond things 
like inciting a riot, yelling fire in a crowded theatre.. etc, PC is 
simply censorship, because our government doesnt feel we should 
be allowed as individuals to make conscious decisions about such 
matters.

Fafrhd accepts the apology



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 09:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark A Nordstrand)
Date: Mon Aug 19 08:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
References: <200208191429.NCQ00397@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D611030.FBDE5BD4@visi.com>

Just to add to this list.....

I think the u505 at the Museum of Science and Industry
in Chicago was mentioned.  Along a similar vein, the
Silversides (?) is further up the Lake Michigan coast 
in Muskegeon harbor, and has been constantly 
undergoing restoration.  It's been a few years since
I took the tour, but it was definitely worth the 
time.  My friends in the area inform me there is also
work on a LSV(T), but it may be some time before it
could be toured.

Completely different, and in a completely different
direction, would be the ore ship (sorry, can't 
remember the name) in Duluth, MN (personally I got
geeked about the *huge* locomotive used on the iron
range).  

The ObTrav is obvious, isn't it?

-- 
Mark

Nobody reads these anymore.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 09:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Mon Aug 19 08:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Damned Silly Questions
Message-ID: <E17gosu-0003pg-00@fifi.runbox.com>

> Leslie Bates wrote:
> >=20
> > I need to name a TIGRESS class dreadnought for parts 5 and 6 of Friends=
 in
> > High Places.
> >=20
> > Is there a feminine form of tomcat? If so, what is it?
> >=20
> > Thanks in advance.
> >=20
> > Les
> >=20
> >=20
>=20
> I'm partial to Danger Kitty. ;)
> --=20

Can you imagine the Hello Kitty?  Required ship's uniform includes bow clip=
s for each ear. :)

Beth

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 10:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Mon Aug 19 09:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Never did like the PFSloan class...
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F1682@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Picture update - Just posted a couple of excerpts from the latest BITS cover I did.  You can find the links here:
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_news.htm

I'm particularly fond of the Sloan getting wasted >;)

Enjoy,
Jesse

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 10:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Mon Aug 19 09:17:02 2002
Subject: Vulcan bits - was RE: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of t
 he beast (long)
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F1683@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

> As I mentioned before, in the UK it's possible to buy a lot 
> of interesting "out of date" items.  If the list could put 
> the money together, and get a UK buyer, we could, say, 
> purchase a Vulcan bomber.

If we DO purchase a Vulcan bomber (or anyone on the list has one ;) I need to pour a silicone mold of the control stick.  It was used in the film "Aliens", and I could easily sell copies to prop collectors :D

Jesse

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 10:19:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Mon Aug 19 09:19:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Damned Silly Questions
In-Reply-To: <E17gosu-0003pg-00@fifi.runbox.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHKEAGIOAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>


> Leslie Bates wrote:
> >
> > I need to name a TIGRESS class dreadnought for parts 5 and 6 of Friends
in
> > High Places.
> >
> > Is there a feminine form of tomcat? If so, what is it?
> >
> > Thanks in advance.
> >
> > Les
> >
> >
>
> I'm partial to Danger Kitty. ;)
> --

Can you imagine the Hello Kitty?  Required ship's uniform includes bow clips
for each ear. :)

Beth

>>>>>>>>>>>>

If we are going to do anime how about the Neko-ken ...  or the Shampoo.


jml
     "The Neko-Ken is a fearsome, almost unstoppable technique.

     The Neko-Ken in a hardsuit is just plain ludicrous.

     Fred barely teleported away alive."

Girl Days by Kenko




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 10:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon Aug 19 09:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Damned Silly Questions
In-Reply-To: <E17gosu-0003pg-00@fifi.runbox.com>
Message-ID: <20020819162004.13695.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Beth <shylady69@runbox.com> wrote:
> 
> Can you imagine the Hello Kitty?  Required ship's
> uniform includes bow clips for each ear. :)
> 
> Beth

Some lines were never meant to be crossed!  This is
one of them. :o

<shudder>

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 10:28:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Aug 19 09:28:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Never did like the PFSloan class...
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F1682@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F1682@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <20020819182648.1a294517.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Mon, 19 Aug 2002 09:07:45 -0700
"DeGraff, Jesse" <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> wrote:

> I'm particularly fond of the Sloan getting wasted >;)

Rather hollow and well-recognized comments at this time, but...

Nice  :-)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 10:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon Aug 19 09:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <F28AUfKRfcjcMzfoV1q000001d3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020819164357.6AD112793A@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/19/02 at 01:26 PM,  "Andrew MacLintock"
<a_maclintock@hotmail.com> said:

>>Barry Bonds has never been a "lovable" player, but he has accomplished
>>some remarkable feats the last few years, and hitting 600 homeruns in
>>a career is an important milestone. I don't begrudge him his feat, or
>>Giants fans their celebration.
>>
>>Eris,
>>     baseball fan!

>It was a bittersweet day when he left the Pittsburgh Pirates.  It was
>sweet  cause he *NEVER* did anything for us in October!  Bitter,
>cause without him,  they *NEVER* play in October!

LOL!  I've often thought he *belonged* on the Houston Astros, a larger
collection of October busts you've never seen...or, and Larson I do
apologize for this, on the Red Sox so he could raise their hopes only
to confirm their October Flopdom once again.  Long live, The Curse of
the Bambino! <g>

On to another sport, one that Captain Jason Wright of the /Nomad
Ranger/ assures me survived into the 53rd century...golf.  Did anyone
see Tiger Woods *almost* lose it yesterday...he was charging down the
back nine pursuing Beem and Leonard, then looks up from his putt and
sees that Beem has moved to -10, and then 3 putts! To his credit he
sucked it up and birdied the last 4 holes, to get with in 2 shots and
keep the pressure on Beem. Wasn't it amazing how Beem *didn't* fold?
I'm not much of a golfing enthusist, but that was an interesting
closing 9...and there wasn't any baseball on the tv to lure me away.
<g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 10:55:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon Aug 19 09:55:09 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <F2159TBbA4Y9Nt16gM40000c7e9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020819165435.1DFB3279BB@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/19/02 at 01:57 PM,  "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
<grote1731@hotmail.com> said:

>     There are several wonderful and historical ships open for tours
>in the  US.  The USS Texas, the only dreadnought still in existance,
>is moored in  the Houstan ship canal.  The remains of a sunken Union
>river ironclad are on  display outside of Vicksburg.  Baltimore has
>the USS Constellation, a Civil  War era sailing frigate.  Chicago has
>a WW2 German U-boat.  I'm extremely  fortunate that Fall River, MA is
>only minutes away from the Whipsnade family  manse.  Moored there in
>Battleship Cove is a BB, USS Massachusetts, a USN  50's DD, a WW2 USN
>SS, a USSR missile corvette, and the national PT Boat  museum.  Also
>close by is the first SSN, USS Nautilus.

To your list, let me add the USS Alabama in Mobile Bay. I toured her
several years ago, and it left quite an impression on me.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 10:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Aug 19 09:58:03 2002
Subject: Vargr vs K'Kree (was RE: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value
 targets)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817205659.009e5cb0@mindspring.com>
References: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFGENIDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020817205659.009e5cb0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <p04330102b986d319888f@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:04 PM -0700 8/17/02, Douglas Berry wrote:
>>The K'kree have the Hivers and the Imperium. Personally, I'm in favor
>>of Vargr movement coreward of the Imperium toward K'kree space. Those
>>two species should mix "interestingly", to say the least. But that's
>>just something I'd toss into the mix IMTU.
>
>A K'kree/Vargr war would be epic, to say the least.

If you look at the map, there is an enclave accross the rift where 
the two meet.  I've wondered about that but little has been said (I 
think I got Dave Pulver to add some comment on it in GT AR1).  I'm 
guessing, based on what I've heard, is that you see sporadic 
skirmishing/raiding at this point in time.  But presumably that 
settled down from more active warfare when they first met..
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 11:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Mon Aug 19 10:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <E17gpyW-00047R-00@fifi.runbox.com>

There is also Patroit's Point in Charleston SC.  The USS Yorktown, a Coast =
Guard cutter and a diesel sub (both names escape me) and some other things =
as well.  Well worth it if you are there.

Beth

>      "Another ship I'd like to visit is the New Jersey, tied up on the=20
> Camden waterfront near the Ben Franklin bridge and across the river from
> the Olympia."
>=20
>=20
> Mr. Houghton,
>=20
>      The Olympia is an excellent tour.  IIRC, she was refurbished very=20
> recently.  I toured her earlier this year during a drive down to Virginia.
>=20
>      "Here in DC, we have the USS Barry,..."
>=20
>      There are several wonderful and historical ships open for tours in t=
he=20
> US.  The USS Texas, the only dreadnought still in existance, is moored in=
=20
> the Houstan ship canal.  The remains of a sunken Union river ironclad are=
 on=20
> display outside of Vicksburg.  Baltimore has the USS Constellation, a Civ=
il=20
> War era sailing frigate.  Chicago has a WW2 German U-boat.  I'm extremely=
=20
> fortunate that Fall River, MA is only minutes away from the Whipsnade fam=
ily=20
> manse.  Moored there in Battleship Cove is a BB, USS Massachusetts, a USN=
=20
> 50's DD, a WW2 USN SS, a USSR missile corvette, and the national PT Boat=
=20
> museum.  Also close by is the first SSN, USS Nautilus.
>      I suppose the biggest draw will be at Hampton Roads, VA.  The museum=
=20
> there has been raising portions of USS Monitor this summer.  The shaft an=
d=20
> screw were recovered a few years ago, along with other relics.  The engin=
e=20
> and TURRET!!! were recovered this summer.  Once those items are preserved=
,=20
> you'll be able to see the dents CSS Virginia's guns put in USS Monitor's=
=20
> turret back in 1862.
>      Across the Pond, the UK also has many great vessels open for tours. =
 I=20
> especially enjoyed HMS Warrior.
>=20
>=20
>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen
>=20
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:=20
> http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>=20

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 11:08:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 19 10:08:16 2002
Subject: Author Ego-Boo (was: Re: RE: [TML] OTU is out of wack.)
Message-ID: <e1c08ee1e846.e1e846e1c08e@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Date: Friday, August 16, 2002 9:06 pm
Subject: RE: [TML] OTU is out of wack.

> At 01:43 PM 8/16/02 -0400, you wrote:
> >I have Ground Forces and ACQ.  Haven't really started on
> >Ground Forces, but I've already marked up ACQ...
> 
> Woo Hoo!
> 
> >And hey, I bought the books (which means an author get
> >something, hopefully), and I get to play my way....
> 
> Nothing for ACQ except that deep thrill of someone reading your 
> work and 
> not forming a lynch mob.  For Ground Forces I get roughly 27 cents 
> a copy.

As for me, even though I only submitted three corps (and some feedback 
in developing the Universal Corporate Profile) for _101 Corporations_, I 
felt some of that same deep thrill when the book came out.  Especially 
when I noted that _101 Corps_ was at the top of the Warehouse 23 best 
seller list for a couple of months.  Plus, I did get paid in kind; a 
comp copy with a nice letter from the folks at BITS.  That one stays in 
the mailing envelope....

As an added bonus for me, _101 Corps_ gave me a chance to have AuricTech 
Shipyards and the shipping firm "Sweet-Carroll Lines" enshrined in 
print.... ;-)




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 11:09:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug 19 10:09:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <3D5DB9A8.C279CE28@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029776800.1327.ajackson@ping>

alan spik writes:
> 
> And in the poor countries they build TL ~1 to 3 boats.

Actually, they build cheap boats.  There's a reason I specified the slightly
higher TL, however; it's really only those goods that require a significant
manufacturing base that won't be produced.

The basic problem is that improvements in tech level often result in goods
where the increase in functionality is greater than the increase in cost, in
which case the lower-tech good disappears entirely.  How often do you see
armies buying up longbows, lances, and platemail?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 11:12:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug 19 10:12:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <3D5DC954.9040808@usisp.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029777046.457.ajackson@ping>

richard honeycutt writes:

>     It is my opinion that tech level should be a measure of what the 
> world is capable of
> manufacturing on its own without outside influence.

In which case all Lo-pop worlds would be TL 5-, which is not the case in the
OTU.  Also violates canon that suggests that worlds are dependent on trade to
maintain their tech level.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 11:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Aug 19 10:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Shifting fleets in Traveller Universe
In-Reply-To: <4627.64.8.3.28.1029648770.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <ML-2.3.1029540496.4803.ajackson@ping>
 <p04330102b984cb573203@[143.232.119.186]>
 <4627.64.8.3.28.1029648770.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <p04330103b986d83dbe2f@[143.232.119.186]>

At 1:32 AM -0400 8/18/02, hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>I seem to recall in IMPERIUM, where the govenor had to send ships out of
>his sector at the Emperor's whim.  Other than that, I've not recalled
>seeing anything regarding a fleet from a specific sector being moved from
>one location to another.

The only wars where this level of detail we discussed, that I know 
of, are the interstellar wars, the fifth frontier war, and the 
rebellion.

Interstellar wars; Fleets were eventually shifted from the core once 
the threat was clear.  This is by an entity that isn't the 3rd 
Imperium

FFW; No shifting.  War was really too short for that.

Rebellion; Lots of shifting.  Some places rebelled because they 
weren't willing to have their fleets stripped away for the war.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 11:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon Aug 19 10:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tech Levels (was warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1029777046.457.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020819175301.50A5527989@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/19/02 at 10:10 AM,  Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> said:

>richard honeycutt writes:

>>     It is my opinion that tech level should be a measure of what the 
>> world is capable of manufacturing on its own without outside influence.

>In which case all Lo-pop worlds would be TL 5-, which is not the case
>in the OTU.  Also violates canon that suggests that worlds are
>dependent on trade to maintain their tech level.

I think ya'll are putting way too much pressure on the simple TL
measure. If you push as hard as ya'll want to push it, of course, it's
going to break. IMO, the UWP's TL was never meant to carry a world's
*entire* economy on its back.

The way I have always used TL is as a very general measure of the
maximum tech level a traveller would find available around the
Starport (if there is one) of a world. TL-F doesn't *have* to mean the
world in question produces all of the items that a tech level 15 could
produce, nor that all of those items are even available there, just
that some TL 15 items can be procured there.  If the world is TL-F,
Pop 7+, and has an A or B Starport then you've probably got a major
producer and exporter of high tech. OTOH, if it is TL-F, with a low
pop or a lesser Starport, then what you've probably got is a high tech
importer.

And just because you can find a TL-F jump drive widget at the A
Starport, doesn't mean that once you step across the externalty line
you'll find a world teeming with air/rafts and gravbelts. If it suits
my (or any Referee's) purposes, a high-tech, high-pop, high-port world
can still be primative out beyond the Starport.

I suppose that reading tech level this way makes it hard to use it to
figure out the macroeconomics of the Imperium. That doesn't bother me,
because I'm not especially interested in Imperial macroeconomics. 

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 11:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Mon Aug 19 10:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <20020819135554.5f32b661c70b43acbe8f300f0af52650.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>There is also Patroit's Point in Charleston SC.  The USS Yorktown, a Coast
Guard cutter and a diesel sub (both names escape me) and some other things
as well.  Well worth it if you are there.

IIRC, the USCG cutter is the INGRAHAM, one of the Secretary-class ships that
today would be labeled High-Endurance Cutters.  They were the size of
contemporary destroyers, and were some of the most valuable escort ships
during the North Atlantic convoy battles during WW2.

C.T.
"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 12:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug 19 11:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tech Levels (was warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <20020819175301.50A5527989@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029780221.1945.ajackson@ping>

Eris Reddoch writes:

> I think ya'll are putting way too much pressure on the simple TL
> measure. If you push as hard as ya'll want to push it, of course, it's
> going to break. IMO, the UWP's TL was never meant to carry a world's
> *entire* economy on its back.
> 
> The way I have always used TL is as a very general measure of the
> maximum tech level a traveller would find available around the
> Starport (if there is one) of a world.

Ugh.  That's even worse, if the starport is active at all there _will_ be TL
12-15 stuff findable near the port, regardless of the general wealth or TL of
the world.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 12:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon Aug 19 11:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Tech Levels (was warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1029780221.1945.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020819183838.821F82798A@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/19/02 at 11:03 AM,  Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> said:

>Eris Reddoch writes:

>> I think ya'll are putting way too much pressure on the simple TL
>> measure. If you push as hard as ya'll want to push it, of course, it's
>> going to break. IMO, the UWP's TL was never meant to carry a world's
>> *entire* economy on its back.
>> 
>> The way I have always used TL is as a very general measure of the
>> maximum tech level a traveller would find available around the
>> Starport (if there is one) of a world.

>Ugh.  That's even worse, if the starport is active at all there
>_will_ be TL 12-15 stuff findable near the port, regardless of the
>general wealth or TL of the world.

Findable yes, common...not necessarily, and once you get away from the
port even less assured.

My point is that I don't think you should put so much reliance on that
single measure.  What PC's can find at a Starport might, or might not,
have very much to do with the rated TL of that world...it's up to the
Referee and the *play* of the game. 

Eris

ps.  Totally as an aside, and not aimed at anyone in particular, but
the list in general...I get the impression that many people on the TML
aren't actually playing Traveller. They are just talking about it, and
that is a shame! Traveller is, IMO, a game meant to be played, not
just discussed or analysed.  It's starting to feel more like we're a
bunch of baseball fans sitting around arguing over whether this dead
guy or that dead guy was a better hitter, whether the designated
hitter rule is ruining the game, or the ramifications of the infield
fly rule on the little-game theory of baseball. Jimminy!  <g>

Seriously, I think everyone on the list should find (or start) a
Traveller game and play the game. Whether face to face, online, or
even solo,  *playing* Traveller is what it's all about.

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 13:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Aug 19 12:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <F48dYYHcYVIKEhlwr6s000095b7@hotmail.com>

From: "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>

     "To your list, let me add the USS Alabama in Mobile Bay. I toured her 
several years ago, and it left quite an impression on me."


Mr. Reddoch,

     There is yet another treasure in Mobile Bay, the wreck of the Union 
monitor TECUMSEH.  She was lost to a mine (known as a torpedo at the time) 
and has been regularily surveyed since the '60s.  Fortunately for 
historians, she's beneath quite a bit of mud so sports divers haven't been 
able to loot her.  She's also remarkably intact, unlike the MONITOR(1).
     IIRC, there are plans to raise her if and when there is enough money to 
both do so AND handle the preservation costs.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

(1)  It's generally believed that MONITOR was mistakenly depth charged 
during WW2 after being detected by MAD gear and mistaken for a U-boat.


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 13:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Aug 19 12:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <F224JVBORmcfMRIEXHS00005591@hotmail.com>

From: "Beth" <shylady69@runbox.com>

     "There is also Patriot's Point in Charleston SC.  The USS Yorktown, a 
Coast Guard cutter and a diesel sub (both names escape me) and some other 
things as well.  Well worth it if you are there."


Ms. Shylady,

     Forgive for overlooking Patriot's Point, it is an excellent place to 
visit.  IIRC, the SAVANNAH, the world's first and only nuc-powered merchant 
ship is berthed there also.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 13:19:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fred Ramen)
Date: Mon Aug 19 12:19:36 2002
Subject: [TML] View before eating
Message-ID: <00f901c247b5$29c31a60$8e2ef7a5@pctframen>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> writes:

"    My apologies for AGAIN mixing personal e-mail with the List's business.
  Fortunately, thanks to Mr. Glenn's superb List management efforts, all of
you spared a color photo of yours' truly in swimming togs. (shudder)"

Curiously enough, this very image is the frontpiece to the latest edition of
the Whipsnade-Ramen Correspondence: Volume XXI, the War Years. Lovingly
edited by a gang of Vargr POWs, this volume once again delivers fascinating
insights into the fames duo's inner workings. Who, for example, cannot hear
the pathos involved in this dispatch?:

    110-1107

    Most honored chum,

    Can you PLEASE replace the liquor dispenser in Emil the Valet Bot?
Everything he mixes         these days tastes like a Zhodane Sunrise.

    I remain, yr. hmbl. svt,

    FR

Faced with the hard task of distracting a war-torn sector, Larsen displays a
touching willingness to bury himself in the minutiae of ordinary life, the
better to help him prepare for the carnage of the Rhylanor front:

    228-1108

    My most excellent and esteemed sir:

    As you no doubt know by now, "The Kid," star right fielder of the Mora
Blue-Bellies, hit his         600th home run last night, a new Spinward
Marches record. Kudos to the Mighty Splinter!

    More to the point, his homer, a game-winner in the ninth, propelled your
favorites, the                 Cosmopolitans, into a last-place hole that it
is now mathematically impossible for them to         escape from. As per our
agreement, the Sum of Cr 5000, ten boxes of Aramis cigars, and a     case of
Zilan wine are now payable to me on demand, which you may consider this note
to         be.

    I remain, etc.,

    Larsen E. Whipsnade

    PS Do not substitute Garda-Villisian tobacco for the cigars as I am no
fool.

However, the larger events of history are not neglected, as seen in this
dispatch from the flagship of Norris' Secret Expedition, where Mr. Ramen was
serving as a Scout Auxilliary:

    [date censored]
    Chum,

        The strangest thing just happened. After spending several days on
the surface of --------,         which we have been orbiting for a week now,
Duke Norris returned to the flagship and burst     onto the bridge,
clutching a piece of paper. Squealing in that high-pitched voice we both
know so well, he exclaimed: "Branj! I've got it! the Imperial Warrant!"
        He then started to caper about the bridge, loudly exclaiming his
plans for using the                 Warrant: "I'm going to redecorate
Glisten System--pink and taupe, what a hoot! Oh, and             orchestra
seats at La Scala Nova on Mora! And--And--I'm going shoe shopping!"
        Rapidly assessing the situation, I immediately offered to carry out
these orders and any         others that might need a little "doing," if he
would just "lend" me the warrant. I was getting         close to an
agreement (the Warrant for my complete two decades Holocrystal collection of
"Sex in the Subsector" and a pair of Manolo Blahniks I acquired on Mora)
when Branj burst in     with a platoon of Imperial Marines and sent me back
to my window washing station on deck     ZZ double Alpha. Some days you just
can't win...

    I rmn.,

    F

In all, Volume XXI of the Whipsnade-Ramen papers is another solid
contribution to the history of the Fifth Frontier Wars and belongs on the
bookshelf of anyone with about a cubic meter of space to spare.

Fred "That's pretty much what the real thing looks like" Ramen


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 13:21:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Aug 19 12:21:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <20020819021101.34955.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020819021101.34955.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p04330104b986f5047d97@[143.232.119.186]>

At 7:11 PM -0700 8/18/02, Paul Walker wrote:
>--- Eris Reddoch <erisred@telocity.com> wrote:
>>  On 08/17/02 at 12:27 PM,  alan spik
>>  <babyduck@mindspring.com> said:
>>
>>  >No hot bunking except in emergencies.
>>
>>  I'd like to point out that if you have gravity
>>  control, you don't have
>>  to have "bunks", containment webbing will do. Stack
>>  'em up like
>>  cordwood! <g>
>
>While I wouldn't deny the legitimate gripes of those
>who have spent lengthy time on a sailing vessel, I am
>surprised that no one has mentioned the fact that the
>crew onboard a starship doesn't have a deck to visit.
>There is something to be said to being able to go
>"above" and have the open sky above you that you can't
>do on a starship.  Still, you need to have a certain
>amount of "personal" space, but the open deck is
>something.

Which would be like being on a submarine.  Of course those had the 
most cramped spaces in the modern navy?  I sort of think a modern 
aircraft carrier is probably a good model for crew space...
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 13:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Aug 19 12:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <F149SshDveEgupDn6sl0000b690@hotmail.com>

From: "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>

     "LOL!  I've often thought he *belonged* on the Houston Astros, a larger 
collection of October busts you've never seen...or, and Larsen I do 
apologize for this, on the Red Sox so he could raise their hopes only
to confirm their October Flopdom once again.  Long live, The Curse of
the Bambino! <g>"


Mr. Reddoch,

     The Flops are well past proving their "October Busts" status.  Lately, 
they've been getting it over with far more quickly, like in June, July, or 
August.  DRAT!  No middle relief, batting is anemic, and it's "Pedro and 
Lowe, then pray for snow" when it comes to starters.
     BTW, True Sufferers don't pin the Flops' woes on the Bambino, it's all 
Fenway Park's fault!  The park opened the day the Titanic sank!
     As for the 'Stros, what do you expect when you play in day-glo pajamas 
instead of uniforms and name your new park after Enron?  Sheesh!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 14:03:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon Aug 19 13:03:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <p04330104b986f5047d97@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20020819200248.4609.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> At 7:11 PM -0700 8/18/02, Paul Walker wrote:
> >--- Eris Reddoch <erisred@telocity.com> wrote:
> >>  On 08/17/02 at 12:27 PM,  alan spik
> >>  <babyduck@mindspring.com> said:
> >>
> >>  >No hot bunking except in emergencies.
> >>
> >>  I'd like to point out that if you have gravity
> >>  control, you don't have
> >>  to have "bunks", containment webbing will do.
> Stack
> >>  'em up like
> >>  cordwood! <g>
> >
> >While I wouldn't deny the legitimate gripes of
> those
> >who have spent lengthy time on a sailing vessel, I
> am
> >surprised that no one has mentioned the fact that
> the
> >crew onboard a starship doesn't have a deck to
> visit.
> >There is something to be said to being able to go
> >"above" and have the open sky above you that you
> can't
> >do on a starship.  Still, you need to have a
> certain
> >amount of "personal" space, but the open deck is
> >something.
> 
> Which would be like being on a submarine.  Of course
> those had the 
> most cramped spaces in the modern navy?  I sort of
> think a modern 
> aircraft carrier is probably a good model for crew
> space...

Perhaps one of our ex-Navy brethren can enlighten us,
but I doubt Subs spend 7+ days at a time under the
surface of the ocean blue.  I would be curious as to
how much deck time an average sailor and/or submariner
gets in our (or any for that matter) Navy.

Paul


__________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 14:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Aug 19 13:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
References: <20020819021101.34955.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com> <p04330104b986f5047d97@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <3D615154.80806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

David P. Summers wrote:

> Which would be like being on a submarine.  Of course those had the most 
> cramped spaces in the modern navy?  

I believe they do. However they're also treated very well in other 
respects (submariner's mess is reputed to be the best in the Navy), and 
specifically screened for fitness for this duty. They're an elite, all 
volunteer, highly trained and highly paid service, about the complete 
opposite of the RSL model of ye auld Royal Navy.

>I sort of think a modern aircraft 
> carrier is probably a good model for crew space...

Probably, note, too, a modern Aircraft carrier has *scads* of room for 
rec space...remember Roger Staubach kept up his throwing arm on the deck 
of the carrier he was staioned on.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 14:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Aug 19 13:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Damned Silly Questions
In-Reply-To: <3D60CFCC.20856.29CDCB@localhost>
References: <3.0.6.32.20020817091336.00a8d100@minn.net>
 <3D5D8AAD.4507.237C6E@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020819130229.009fcec0@mindspring.com>

At 11:00 AM 8/19/02 +1200, you wrote:
>On 17 Aug 2002 at 9:13, Leslie Bates wrote:
>
> >
> > I need to name a TIGRESS class dreadnought for parts 5 and 6 of Friends in
> > High Places.
> >
> > Is there a feminine form of tomcat? If so, what is it?
>
>How about "Moggie". Actually it's "Queen" in cat breeding circles.

I hope to Ghod there are no filkers in the 57th Century to see that ship...

http://www.songworm.com/lyrics/songworm-parody/NobodysMoggyLands.html


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"I'm just trying to evict them. Frogs never pay."
                             - Rose Platt



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 14:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 19 13:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
Message-ID: <14a.12abd3ad.2a92afca@cs.com>

In a message dated 8/19/02 3:05:36 PM Central Daylight Time, 
traveller_tv@yahoo.com writes: 
> Perhaps one of our ex-Navy brethren can enlighten us,
> but I doubt Subs spend 7+ days at a time under the
> surface of the ocean blue.  I would be curious as to
> how much deck time an average sailor and/or submariner
> gets in our (or any for that matter) Navy.
> 
> Paul

Almost none. Essentially, when the sub leaves port and submerges, it stays 
down there until they run out of food. Usually about 45-60 days. This is just 
guesswork as I've never been on a sub outside of the repair yard but I'd say 
that if they really want to have a sub make a long-duration dive and really 
pack it to the rafters with food, it could stay submerged for maybe half a 
year (?). Of course all the crew members would be eligible for immediate 
entrance to the loony bin as soon as they made port, and I wouldn't trust 
them near a 90-year old nun, but it could probably be done.

Doug Grimes


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 14:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Burns)
Date: Mon Aug 19 13:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tech Levels
Message-ID: <20020819204415.86943.qmail@web10605.mail.yahoo.com>

Just my .02 crimps...

The generated TL, being primarily affected by (or most
significantly so) the Starport class, and the UWP
being  chiefly an economic statement (trade
classifications, passenger and cargo lots), I've
always related it mostly to the world's commercial
spacefaring ability. Most class A ports will be able
to make Starships (TL 9+ on average) and class B ports
will have Spaceships (TL 7+ on average).
Government/Military (i.e. NOT avaiable for the PC's or
even most NPC's) will usually be a little better.

Beyond that, to factor the rest of it, the Starport
(and immediate surround, Startown if you like) is the
bull's-eye of my TL map for the world (the generated
TL) and the outer ring (furthest away, though not
always geographically) is half the generated TL.

I know Anthony Jackson disagrees with this
'generalization' but note Eris Reddoch said "Starport
(if there is one)". I doubt that you'll find much of
anything of even the local TL near a class E
'Starport' :)

As to the "active at all" part, maybe you need to
consider the situation the other way around. Why is
this class A Starport world 'only' TL 8? Maybe they
build some custom components for Starship's at TL 8
for export in trade for just enough high tech imports
to maintain their own fledgling Starship industry. And
the interesting TL 12 world a few jumps away with the
class E starport? They are a bunch of isolationists
living in a nice little utopia who keep a candle
(marker beacon) in the window (a big flat barren area
several klicks from anywhere) for any who want to come
and join them. 

By your reasoning (a Starport will always have high
tech near it) shouldn't the corollary be that a high
tech world can always build Starships regardless of
the Starport? You can get a TL 12 class C Starport
without a lot of rolls. Both these statements go
against the rules of the game. Of  course it is a game
and you can do whatever you like in YTU :)

Dan "far-trader" Burns

still looking for 'the' definitive .sig file



______________________________________________________________________ 
Post your ad for free now! http://personals.yahoo.ca

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 14:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Mon Aug 19 13:53:03 2002
Subject: Playing Traveller (was [TML] Tech Levels...)
Message-ID: <Springmail.0994.1029790355.0.29429000@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>

Eris Reddoch posted:
> 
> Seriously, I think everyone on the list should
> find (or start) a
> Traveller game and play the game. Whether face
> to face, online, or
> even solo,  *playing* Traveller is what it's
> all about.

Well, I'm playing tomorrow night in one of the two active campaigns I'm a
member of. This is in spite of a full-time day job, night classes, and
rebuilding part of my house (foundation problems).

Oh, and I'm helping build a "Traveller Online" application in Java for a
friend's website.

Some of us _do_ play. I, for one, farm the heck out of the TML for background
material.

And Jesse D.? AWESOME pics of the Ghalalk and Sloan. As always.
David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 14:55:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Aug 19 13:55:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <20020819200248.4609.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <p04330104b986f5047d97@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020819132758.009f8980@mindspring.com>

At 01:02 PM 8/19/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Perhaps one of our ex-Navy brethren can enlighten us,
>but I doubt Subs spend 7+ days at a time under the
>surface of the ocean blue.  I would be curious as to
>how much deck time an average sailor and/or submariner
>gets in our (or any for that matter) Navy.

An Ohio-class SSBN can spend several months under water.  They tend to 
carry materials and entertainment to last that long.  Nintendo-type game 
systems have practically become issue equipment.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry   gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Cry "CHEEBLE!" and let slip the hamsters of war!



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 14:56:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Aug 19 13:56:18 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEHFEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817174119.009e28e0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020819133029.009fab40@mindspring.com>

At 03:40 PM 8/18/02 -0400, you wrote:
>So how do the areas occupied by the Zhodoni to support the core expeditions
>fit into this?
>
>I don't doubt that you are right Doug, I'm just asking what its based on.
>Where does it say that the Consulate consists of 10 sectors? Is this GM
>information or is it in game information.

I looked at the map in the GURPS: Traveller book and counted.  :)   The map 
was oroignally published in one of the Library Data supplements.

The Core expeditions are just that: voyages of discovery.  I understand 
that they left outposts along the way, but haven't seen where they actually 
claimed the territory.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 14:57:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Aug 19 13:57:30 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <F2159TBbA4Y9Nt16gM40000c7e9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020819134229.009f1320@mindspring.com>

At 01:57 PM 8/19/02 +0000, you wrote:
>     There are several wonderful and historical ships open for tours in 
> the US.

USS Hornet, in Alameda, California.  San Francisco has a WWII submarine.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 14:58:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Mon Aug 19 13:58:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Technology Marches On - Traveller-like APCs Arrive?
Message-ID: <Springmail.0994.1029790473.0.84842300@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>

Well, not quite. They're not grav-/AC-based but their capabilities are
something very reminiscent of what I imagine Traveller APCs capable of. Check
'em out!

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/TechTV/techtv_stryker020819.html


David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 15:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Aug 19 14:00:03 2002
Subject: Author Ego-Boo (was: Re: RE: [TML] OTU is out of wack.)
In-Reply-To: <e1c08ee1e846.e1e846e1c08e@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020819134752.009f78b0@mindspring.com>

At 08:06 PM 8/19/02 +0300, you wrote:
>As an added bonus for me, _101 Corps_ gave me a chance to have AuricTech
>Shipyards and the shipping firm "Sweet-Carroll Lines" enshrined in
>print.... ;-)

Kirsten just read the names of your shipping line.

She's invited you to come back out to BayCon so she can smack you.

It's an honor, trust me.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 15:01:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Mon Aug 19 14:01:16 2002
Subject: Playing Traveller (was [TML] Tech Levels...)
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F168C@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

> And Jesse D.? AWESOME pics of the Ghalalk and Sloan. As always.
> David

Thanks :)
Jesse

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 15:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Mon Aug 19 14:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
References: <20020818033255.89A672793A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <002e01c247c6$2d1f06e0$8d30f7c2@imogen>

Eris wrote:
> I'd like to point out that if you have gravity control, you don't
> have to have "bunks", containment webbing will do. Stack 'em up
> like cordwood! <g>

I was looking at the canon deck plans of the AHL ... does  anyone
else use nets (containment webbing ?) to stop crewmen  and  other
loose object flying around during combat?

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 15:19:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Mon Aug 19 14:19:15 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
References: <000001c2463b$7093bba0$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <002f01c247c6$31481720$8d30f7c2@imogen>

J-Man wrote:
> I figure time travel is possible..its just changes to the past
> create a new quantum reality while the old timeline remains
> unchanged, thus preserving causality.

The way I see it (based on absolutely nothing  at  all)  is  that
time travel is possible but paradoxes are not.  If you  think  of
the branching  many  universes  model,  any  branch  in  which  a
temporal paradox occurs  is  unviable  and  is  'pruned'  out  of
exitence.  So, for example, the plot of the first Terminator film
is plausable, but that of the second film is not (the first  film
had a closed loop of cause and effect not a paradox).

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 15:20:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Mon Aug 19 14:20:40 2002
Subject: [TML] Clean data
References: <4EC81CD0-B2D7-11D6-A6C4-000502884755@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <003001c247c6$355ed7e0$8d30f7c2@imogen>

I've been looking at the  quality  of  the  sector  data  in  the
electronic files on the net recently.  I started by comparing the
electronic version of the Spinward Marches  to  the  original  CT
Supplement 3.  In addition to obveous typos there are a number of
cases where the original data  is  not  valid  according  to  the
standard system generation rules ... and the  electronic  version
has the nearest legal value.

Now I'm planning on  performing  a  data  clearing  exercise  and
posting the  results  in  a  number  of  different  formats  (for
Heaven&Earth,  World  Builders   Deluxe,   TrTools,   etc).   I'm
proposing that (for circa 1105) we start with Supplement  3  plus
the stellar data from Spinward Marches Campaign ... but take  the
*corrections* given in the HES  file  for  *physical*  stats.  In
other words accept that while the *social* stats in Supplement  3
may not be generatable by  the  standard  rules  they  are  still
canon.  The supporting argument for this is that (IIRC)  GDW  has
stated in  the  past  that  some  of  the  sectors  (older,  more
established sectors) were generated with houserule  additions  to
social stats.

I'd like the list's opinion: if sector files were made  available
that had been 'cleaned' in this way  (and  assuming  people  were
confident in the accuracy of  the  cleaning  process)  would  you
accept them as definative?

(I also realise that cleaning sectors  other  than  the  Spinward
Marches would be problematic as there is a  lack  of  alternative
sources.)

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 15:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 19 14:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Technology Marches On - Traveller-like APCs Arrive?
Message-ID: <72.21213d59.2a92bf75@cs.com>

In a message dated 8/19/02 3:59:53 PM Central Daylight Time, 
jurrubin@earthlink.net writes: 
> Well, not quite. They're not grav-/AC-based but their capabilities are
> something very reminiscent of what I imagine Traveller APCs capable of. 
> Check
> 'em out!
> 
> http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/TechTV/techtv_stryker020819.html
> 
> 
> David
> _____
And, according to a former paratrooper who's opinion I trust, it's a POS. 
It's half-again as heavy and twice as complicated as the other APC it was 
compared to, the Gavin II (a newer version of the M-113), It can only be 
carried in a C-130 if it's totally unloaded, no ammo, no fuel, no spares, and 
no crew, and if the air is let out of the tires. It's incidence of breakdown 
was almost twice as often as the Gavin due almost entirely to the newly 
designed transmission system. And, whereas the Gavin already has plenty of 
spare parts in the Army's logistics chain, and the mechanics know how to fix 
anything that might go wrong with it, the Stryker would require a whole new 
system of spare parts be acquired and all the mechanics be retrained.

What the Stryker is is a project whereby soon-to-be-retired Army generals and 
colonels ensure that the military arms manufacturers they are soon to be 
employed by get fat new contracts.

The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette has this article on the Stryker. One of the 
Pennsylvania National Guard units is one of the first to be equipped with 
this new toy.
http://www.post-gazette.com/nation/20020320mobilenat4p4.asp

Doug Grimes


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 15:42:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Aug 19 14:42:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <20020819200248.4609.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020819200248.4609.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p04330105b9871664575e@[143.232.119.186]>

At 1:02 PM -0700 8/19/02, Paul Walker wrote:
>  > Which would be like being on a submarine.  Of course
>>  those had the
>>  most cramped spaces in the modern navy?  I sort of
>>  think a modern
>>  aircraft carrier is probably a good model for crew
>>  space...
>
>Perhaps one of our ex-Navy brethren can enlighten us,
>but I doubt Subs spend 7+ days at a time under the
>surface of the ocean blue.  I would be curious as to
>how much deck time an average sailor and/or submariner
>gets in our (or any for that matter) Navy.

According to a documentary I was, they spend months down there....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 15:44:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Aug 19 14:44:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <3D615154.80806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <20020819021101.34955.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>
 <p04330104b986f5047d97@[143.232.119.186]>
 <3D615154.80806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <p04330106b987169f6571@[143.232.119.186]>

At 1:13 PM -0700 8/19/02, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>>I sort of think a modern aircraft carrier is probably a good model 
>>for crew space...
>
>Probably, note, too, a modern Aircraft carrier has *scads* of room 
>for rec space...remember Roger Staubach kept up his throwing arm on 
>the deck of the carrier he was staioned on.

I was sort of thinking that the stateroom space might be generally 
OK, if you give them the small quarters you see in places like 
"military diaries" on VH1 and take the extra space and make mess 
halls, assembly rooms, etc.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 15:47:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Mon Aug 19 14:47:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020819133029.009fab40@mindspring.com>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEHFEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020817174119.009e28e0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020819175555.00a3cec0@mail.buffnet.net>

Wasn't there a Zhodane supplement out there at one point in Traveller's 
existence?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 15:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fred Ramen)
Date: Mon Aug 19 14:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The Frontier Wars; The other side of the hill
Message-ID: <012801c247c9$edfa5600$8e2ef7a5@pctframen>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> writes:

"Let me spin a Real World analogy.  It's the mid-1840's on the North ..."

[snip of great AH timeline]

Wow, beyond analogy, that was a cool alternate timeline. I hope the editors
of the next GURPS: Alternate Earths (or whatever it's called) are paying
attention.

A minor quibble: in the OTL, Lee accompanied Scott to Vera Cruz, not Taylor
to Monterrey. Furthermore, Lee was always a soldier first, not a statesman.
However, there is a replacement close at hand: Taylor's one-time son-in-law,
Jefferson Davis, a graduate of West Point and the colonel of a regiment of
Mississippi volunteers. Davis was a brave soldier and able politician, so
its quite possible to see him holding the line in Mexico, implementing a
truce line, and then marching on Washington to restore the Constitution.
(Not as crazy as it sounds, if you are familiar with his pre-Civil War
career.)

Further developments of this timeline, such as how on earth Mexico could be
strong enough to win the Mexican war, and what the future course of a rump
U.S. that had already displayed most of the sad flaws of its sister
republics in South America would be, I leave to the clever student. (Of
course, the idea of Davis actually winning a civil war might strain the SOD
of many readers...)

Fred "Kaiser von Rammenstein in some timeline" Ramen



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 16:18:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 19 15:18:05 2002
Subject: [TML] The Frontier Wars; The other side of the hill
Message-ID: <006501c247ce$3051d6a0$16000140@k62500>

Hello Larsen E. Whipsnade,

There is a small error in the following section of the below statement =
in the recent posting:

"US colonists have been drifting into that region for decades now, even =
detaching part of it, Texas, as an independent nation. (a new nation =
that allowed slavery, unlike Mexico)  Now US colonists are filtering =
into California and the Southwest, squabbling with the Mexican officials =
there.  The US government is in the process of absorbing independent =
Texas too."

1. The Mexican government invited North American, primarily Southern =
citizens, settlers into Texas. In order for the settlers to be admitted =
they agreed to abide by Mexican regulations and laws. The settlers =
agreed, began home steading, and then began chaffing at what they felt =
were unfair laws. Eventually, the settlers overthrew the local authority =
and set up the Republic of Texas.

2. The Republic of Texas made overtures to the U.S. government which =
were politely rebuffed owing to an unfavorable climate. This quickly =
turned around when the Republic of Texas began to make overtures for =
support to Great Britain. There were other reasons for the change in US =
policy, but keeping Texas out of British hands was the biggest concern.

Tom Rux


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 16:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug 19 15:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <20020819221913.75438.qmail@web20418.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>

>If Mexico or Canada invaded us every couple of generations, I
>imagine we'd do some pre-emptive annexing too.

Well, the Mexicans were not very likely to invade in the mid-19th
Century, but the buffer zone created by the 1845 war certainly
ensured that they did not.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 16:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug 19 15:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: FFW Question
Message-ID: <20020819222207.76060.qmail@web20418.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

>>Did the Zho's ever actually attack Regina (in canon)?
>
>Depends on your canon.  CT canon is unclear.  In Ground Forces it is

>stated clearly that there is a landing.

There is at least one hit-and-run attack during a press conference
mentioned in TAS article.   I've played Fifth Frontier War a few
times, both solo and against others, and Regina is always taken
pretty easily.

--Glenn



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 16:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Mon Aug 19 15:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F1690@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

My cousin served on the carrier USS America during the Gulf War.  Here was the size of his "stateroom" ;)

"About 6'5"x 18" x 24""

Of course, he was only an avionics tech, so his stateroom was a bunk :)  I think only officers had real staterooms, and then it was two officers per closet-sized room.  I'll get more specific info later.  He was off to a meeting and didn't have time to chat in IM.

Jesse


> -----Original Message-----
> From: David P. Summers [mailto:summers@alum.mit.edu]
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 2:43 PM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
> 
> 
> At 1:13 PM -0700 8/19/02, Bruce Johnson wrote:
> >>I sort of think a modern aircraft carrier is probably a good model 
> >>for crew space...
> >
> >Probably, note, too, a modern Aircraft carrier has *scads* of room 
> >for rec space...remember Roger Staubach kept up his throwing arm on 
> >the deck of the carrier he was staioned on.
> 
> I was sort of thinking that the stateroom space might be generally 
> OK, if you give them the small quarters you see in places like 
> "military diaries" on VH1 and take the extra space and make mess 
> halls, assembly rooms, etc.
> -- 
> ______________________________
> summers@alum.mit.edu
> (This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but 
> I'm in California.)
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 16:29:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug 19 15:29:06 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <20020819222844.14677.qmail@web20414.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com>

>Oh come on guys.  The man has done something that only
>three other men have done in the history of the game. 

I'm just talking about the jargon.  I know who Barry Bonds is and
respect his accomplishment, because I read the first section of the
newspaper and because I saw the subject line of the post.  The
original posts, however, were completely opaque, and failed to convey
anything comprehensible to me.  (If I approached them as a project in
cryptanalyis or language translation, I might eventually derive some
understanding.)

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 16:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Colin)
Date: Mon Aug 19 15:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] on the ropes, but still in the fight
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEJHECAA.tml@jtas.org>

Fellow Travellers,

	After four plus years of serving as chief web slinger and code cleaner for
Downport.com and several web kingdoms of my own, I am so seriously jostled
about by Real Life (tm), having changed living arrangements six times in the
past 7 months, that I have been ineffective at growing and am barely
maintaining content. My apologies to those who have sent updates to various
listings on Downport.com and affiliated sites, for I fear that I have been
very slow to respond. Unfortunately, this situation may last a little while
longer, since I have one more move to make before I'll be settled for a
little while. Please continue to be a bit patient for a few more weeks and I
promise to do my best to get back on track.

	Two of my projects have suffered badly during this time. First, I resigned
as editor of the Open Directory Traveller Category
(http://dmoz.org/Games/Roleplaying/Genres/Science_Fiction/Traveller/) back
in December, but whereas nobody has taken over the category that listing has
dropped from 200+ web sites to just 160. They automatically remove broken
links, but it takes an editor to approve new additions (and hopefully find
and add a few, as well). Taking on the whole category and its eight sub-cats
might be too much to ask, but please consider taking over a sub-category
such as "Classic Traveller" or "GURPS Traveller", etc.

	The other site getting short shrift is The Traveller Trader
(http://www.travellertrader.com). Moving around a lot has made it impossible
for me to seek out and purchase fresh titles for this online, used Traveller
book store. That has made it rather stale and boring, I know. One of my top
priorities will be adding new stock to the shelves and an overhaul of the
site to automate the shopping process. I hope to launch the new version of
the site by early November. Meanwhile, I'd like to get rid of a lot of the
current stock so that I have less to move, both physically and
electronically, to its new digs. Therefore, I am offering a 25% discount on
every item through the end of August. You'll have to _ask_ for the discount
when ordering and I'll take it off of the total order.

	Finally, I want to add my Cr 0.02 about the movement afoot to make a new
Spinward Marches Landgrab webring. I really think that the Landgrab is one
of the best projects that we have going. I think that it should stay the way
it is, spread across a large number of web sites. To that end, I think that
the webring would encourage newbies and veteran browsers alike to peruse
them.

_____________________________________________
The Traveller Web Portal
http://www.downport.com
webmaster@downport.com


 Colin Michael 
 TAS-NET Administrator 
 JTAS.Net 

_________________________________
     The Traveller Trader
 http://www.travellertrader.com
"The place to get that wonderful,
  out-of-print Traveller stuff!"



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 16:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Aug 19 15:35:04 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
References: <200208191429.NCQ00397@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D617255.1090908@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:

> Quite unlike the US, who puts its aircraft into the desert, 
> and chops them up for scrap.

Actually, other federal agencies can purchase planes from the boneyards, 
and until the mid to late 70's so could citizens.

Alas, they were being purchased here, gassed up, flown south and often 
caught coming here again, full of pot and/or coke.

After a few of these episodes, they suspended civilian sales of aircraft.

Bastards.

There were some truly classic aircraft turned into scrap after that. :-(

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 16:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Mon Aug 19 15:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Damned Silly Questions
Message-ID: <memo.978885@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <3D618968.26532.CCFF86@localhost>
A silly thought in answer to a silly question: Have you considered using 
the names of some of the T.S. Eliot cats?

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 16:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Aug 19 15:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Tech Levelling
In-Reply-To: <F231KHRosXmhYkyNkj900002582@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D6220C6.10081.34EB72@localhost>

On 19 Aug 2002 at 14:09, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

> Mr. Boleyn,
> 
>      Surely New Zealand is a member of the WTO?

It is.

> If so, file a protest with that organization and force arbitration. 
> The US and EU have been clubbing each other with WTO rulings, and
> forcing real changes in trade policies, for years now. 

Fat lot of good it did us over lamb exports.

>      The US opened the "closed" EU banana market (I'm not kidding) by 
> overturning an EU ex-European colony banana preference policy.  The EU 
> forced the US to drop export supports in the form of tax incentives for 
> corporations.  Canada and the US are currently tussling over softwood 
> imports, a WTO will eventually settle it.  Even Dubya's steel tariffs are 
> working their way up the ladder towards WTO arbitration.
>      Sure, it may take time, but every WTO signatory is sworn to abide by 
> arbiters' decisions.

It takes a rediculous amount of time and effort though. I can't help 
wondering if this will make it end up as a club used by wealthier 
nations to beat smaller, poorer ones into submission.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 17:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug 19 16:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Tech Levelling
In-Reply-To: <3D6220C6.10081.34EB72@localhost>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029798354.4479.ajackson@ping>

Rupert Boleyn writes:

> It takes a rediculous amount of time and effort though. I can't help 
> wondering if this will make it end up as a club used by wealthier 
> nations to beat smaller, poorer ones into submission.

Let's see.  The WTO was set up by wealthier nations.  Take a guess?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 17:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug 19 16:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <20020819231505.44062.qmail@web20419.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

>But our last war with Iraq was 11 years ago.  When was the last time

>that Sweden swept down on anyone?

Their last military adventurism was about 1740, but those "I Am
Curious" movies from the 1960s nearly brought down western
civilization.

--Glenn


__________________________________________________
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HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 17:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug 19 16:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Make Sure My Combat Armor Has This Option
Message-ID: <200208192318.NDH04705@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Spaced Electrocapacitive Armor"

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/26728.html

If it really works, it looks like it would make the HEAT 
round obsolete.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 17:32:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug 19 16:32:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Make Sure My Combat Armor Has This Option
In-Reply-To: <200208192318.NDH04705@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029799904.9983.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> "Spaced Electrocapacitive Armor"
> 
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/26728.html
> 
> If it really works, it looks like it would make the HEAT 
> round obsolete.

Appears to be what FF&S calls electrostatic armor. and GURPS calls
electromagnetic armor.  I doubt it would reduce the penetration of typical
shaped charges by enough to make them survivable with combat armor.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 17:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug 19 16:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <20020819233224.58157.qmail@web20417.mail.yahoo.com>

While we're talking about baseball, I note that the players are
contemplating a strike to squeeze more money out of team owners.  I
would like to suggest two changes to the current regime that would
benefit baseball fans.

(1)  Make the players own their teams.  They buy out the current
owners at fair market value, hire whatever management they want, and
pay themselves as much as they want.

(2)  Remove baseball's exemption from the anti-trust laws.  More
competition will mean more games to watch, at lower prices.

Ob Traveller:  We are grateful that grav-ballers do not have these
problems.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
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HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 17:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug 19 16:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Human Nature or 'WWRD' or 'WWAD'
Message-ID: <20020819234016.95633.qmail@web20418.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

>>For that matter, what if the Zhodani fleet assembles at an
uncharted
>>star or a fuel dump in deep space?
>
>Things like this keep admirals awake at night.
>
>Remember that the first news we had of the 5FW was a Zho fleet 
>appearing at Ruie.  And we only knew that because a detached duty
>scout happened to be in system with the fuel to jump.  Even so, the
>ship was battle damaged.  Had that ship *not* been on site, the
>first sighting would have been when the perfidious Zhodani broke
>jump in Regina!

It's interesting that there are two Shivva-class Zhodani warships in
orbit at Vanejen in 1105, according to Research Station Gamma.  What
were they doing there?  Vanejen is probably five or six jump-4 jumps
from the border.  Did the Imperial Navy know they were there?  

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 17:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Aug 19 16:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The Frontier Wars; The other side of the hill
Message-ID: <F18072HVUKmqzAGz97J00009117@hotmail.com>

From: "Fred Ramen" <von_rammen@msn.com>

     "Wow, beyond analogy, that was a cool alternate timeline. I hope the 
editors of the next GURPS: Alternate Earths (or whatever it's called) are 
paying attention."


Mr. Ramen,

     Thank you, sir.  The creative powers inherent of single malt scotch can 
be frightening at times.

     "A minor quibble: in the OTL, Lee accompanied Scott to Vera Cruz, not 
Taylor to Monterrey. Furthermore, Lee was always a soldier first, not a 
statesman.  However, there is a replacement close at hand: Taylor's one-time 
son-in-law, Jefferson Davis, a graduate of West Point and the colonel of a 
regiment of Mississippi volunteers."

     Jeff Davis would have been a much better choice than Lee, but, after 
displaying crass Yankee parochialism in my baseball posts, I decided to 
select a historical individual most non-American Listers might know.
     The Mexican War made Davis, catapulting him into national prominence 
and federal office.  Lee performed superbly also, mostly in the role of a 
combat engineer (all top graduates of the Point are offered commissions in 
the Corp of Engineers).  He scouted most of the route Scott took between 
Veracruz and the Valley of Mexico.

     "Further developments of this timeline, such as how on earth Mexico 
could be strong enough to win the Mexican war,..."

     During the Mexican War of Independence in the 1820's, break the 
institutional powers of the Catholic Church and provide Mexico with a 
Washington rather than the historical gaggle of Santa Annas.

     "...and what the future course of a rump U.S. that had already 
displayed most of the sad flaws of its sister republics in South America 
would be,..."

     That future course would be sad indeed.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 18:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (colin @ Pemaquid Solutions)
Date: Mon Aug 19 17:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] on the ropes, but still in the fight
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMEEJHECAA.colin@pemaquidsolutions.com>

Fellow Travellers,

	After four plus years of serving as chief web slinger and code cleaner for
Downport.com and several web kingdoms of my own, I am so seriously jostled
about by Real Life (tm), having changed living arrangements six times in the
past 7 months, that I have been ineffective at growing and am barely
maintaining content. My apologies to those who have sent updates to various
listings on Downport.com and affiliated sites, for I fear that I have been
very slow to respond. Unfortunately, this situation may last a little while
longer, since I have one more move to make before I'll be settled for a
little while. Please continue to be a bit patient for a few more weeks and I
promise to do my best to get back on track.

	Two of my projects have suffered badly during this time. First, I resigned
as editor of the Open Directory Traveller Category
(http://dmoz.org/Games/Roleplaying/Genres/Science_Fiction/Traveller/) back
in December, but whereas nobody has taken over the category that listing has
dropped from 200+ web sites to just 160. They automatically remove broken
links, but it takes an editor to approve new additions (and hopefully find
and add a few, as well). Taking on the whole category and its eight sub-cats
might be too much to ask, but please consider taking over a sub-category
such as "Classic Traveller" or "GURPS Traveller", etc.

	The other site getting short shrift is The Traveller Trader
(http://www.travellertrader.com). Moving around a lot has made it impossible
for me to seek out and purchase fresh titles for this online, used Traveller
book store. That has made it rather stale and boring, I know. One of my top
priorities will be adding new stock to the shelves and an overhaul of the
site to automate the shopping process. I hope to launch the new version of
the site by early November. Meanwhile, I'd like to get rid of a lot of the
current stock so that I have less to move, both physically and
electronically, to its new digs. Therefore, I am offering a 25% discount on
every item through the end of August. You'll have to _ask_ for the discount
when ordering and I'll take it off of the total order.

	Finally, I want to add my Cr 0.02 about the movement afoot to make a new
Spinward Marches Landgrab webring. I really think that the Landgrab is one
of the best projects that we have going. I think that it should stay the way
it is, spread across a large number of web sites. To that end, I think that
the webring would encourage newbies and veteran browsers alike to peruse
them.

_____________________________________________
The Traveller Web Portal
http://www.downport.com
webmaster@downport.com


 Colin Michael 
 TAS-NET Administrator 
 JTAS.Net 

_________________________________
     The Traveller Trader
 http://www.travellertrader.com
"The place to get that wonderful,
  out-of-print Traveller stuff!"



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 18:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Mon Aug 19 17:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <20020819200248.4609.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEILEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

I saw less time above deck on a carrier than I ever did on smaller ships
(frigates, destroyers or cruisers.) This was due to the fact that "outside"
is almost exclusively the domain of the flight deck crew. Submariners spend
very littler time either on the surface or in port (while deployed.) When on
the surface they have almost no "deck space" nor are very many sailors
allowed on deck at that time.

I would also point out the submarines still do not have mixed gender crews
and are the only platform in the U.S. Navy where hot bunking is still
authorized. It is also a branch of the Naval Service that has a real problem
keeping people and pays its sailors thousands of dollars in re-enlistment
bonuses as well as sub pay and nuclear bonus pay. I would say that a typical
sub engineer makes almost 2/3 more a month than a conventional engineer in a
surface ship. They are authorized quarters ashore (single surface sailors
are expected to live aboard their ships, even when his or her ship is
scheduled to be in homeport for months, as they are during repair and upkeep
periods, admittedly few and far between in these high deployment times.)

I would also point out that unlike a wet navy ship a Traveller starship
might visit a truly habitable world only very seldom. Most worlds are not
habitable.

On the other side many spacers might come form habitat environments and not
be especially keen to visit an open air world.

To me one of the biggest aspects of this discussion is how do spacers relate
to their ships? In the modern (U.S.) Navy a sailor will spend no more than 5
years on a ship. 3 Years is more common. (For ratings only, officers have a
different career path.) This follows CT character creation. It is not the
kind of career path I would expect. I would follow the pattern used by the
Navy in the late nineteenth century. In those days a sailor would report
aboard a ship as a young seaman and retire from that same ship 30 years
later as a grizzled old masters mate. Only the sinking of the ship or
especially good performance (which might mean an appointment to a new ship
in a higher position) would disrupt this career path.

In such a case a bit of personal space would be even more important. It's
true that the 19th century sailor didn't have such a thing, but he also
didn't have a skill that could be easily transferred to a civilian job
either. Mostly sailors were uneducated farm boys doing work in the (to
paraphrase another poster) only slightly less work than the age of sail
(steam) age. Don't forget that the sailor's civilian counterpart was working
twelve to eighteen hour days, six days a week, often in mines or factories.
So unless the spacer is an escapee from MyMines the chances are that a
fusion systems mechanic or weapons system technician can make more by
working in commercial shipping, get higher pay and a semi-private stateroom.

Final point: The reason present American sailors don't do this is that for
all practical purposes there is no commercial shipping counterpart to the
military. Many do leave the navy for work ashore.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Paul Walker
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 4:03 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Naval crew accommodation

--- "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> At 7:11 PM -0700 8/18/02, Paul Walker wrote:
> >--- Eris Reddoch <erisred@telocity.com> wrote:
> >>  On 08/17/02 at 12:27 PM,  alan spik
> >>  <babyduck@mindspring.com> said:
> >>
> >>  >No hot bunking except in emergencies.
> >>
> >>  I'd like to point out that if you have gravity
> >>  control, you don't have
> >>  to have "bunks", containment webbing will do.
> Stack
> >>  'em up like
> >>  cordwood! <g>
> >
> >While I wouldn't deny the legitimate gripes of
> those
> >who have spent lengthy time on a sailing vessel, I
> am
> >surprised that no one has mentioned the fact that
> the
> >crew onboard a starship doesn't have a deck to
> visit.
> >There is something to be said to being able to go
> >"above" and have the open sky above you that you
> can't
> >do on a starship.  Still, you need to have a
> certain
> >amount of "personal" space, but the open deck is
> >something.
>
> Which would be like being on a submarine.  Of course
> those had the
> most cramped spaces in the modern navy?  I sort of
> think a modern
> aircraft carrier is probably a good model for crew
> space...

Perhaps one of our ex-Navy brethren can enlighten us,
but I doubt Subs spend 7+ days at a time under the
surface of the ocean blue.  I would be curious as to
how much deck time an average sailor and/or submariner
gets in our (or any for that matter) Navy.

Paul


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 18:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ken Hagler)
Date: Mon Aug 19 17:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <3D617255.1090908@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <B986DB44.5D4AB%khagler@orange-road.com>

on 8/19/2002 3:33 PM, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Actually, other federal agencies can purchase planes from the boneyards,
> and until the mid to late 70's so could citizens.
> 
> Alas, they were being purchased here, gassed up, flown south and often
> caught coming here again, full of pot and/or coke.

That sounds like a good deal for the government. They sell the plane, then
they steal (excuse me, "seize") it from the people who bought it, then sell
it again. Repeat indefinitely...
-- 
                              Ken Hagler

|          ICQ#: 34591293         |   For PGP key send mail with  |
|   http://www.orange-road.com/   |    subject "Send PGP Key".    |
|   And tho' we are not now that strength which in old days       |
|   Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are --Tennyson  |


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 18:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Mon Aug 19 17:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F1690@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEIMEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

There are four kinds of staterooms on a carrier.

Really junior officers can actually be relegated to bunk rooms, each having
no more than eight bunks. These are generally used only for black shoe
officers (surface warfare officers who run the ships systems.) No flight
officer, or even flight support officer would ever be relegated to one of
these.

More senior black shoe officers and pilots get two person staterooms. Each
stateroom generally has a sink, two bunks, two desks, and a small
refrigerator. The refrigerator is necessary to provide ice for the whiskey
kept in the gun safe installed in each set of lockers. Embarked Marine
officer generally share this kind of stateroom.

The third kind of stateroom is reserved for senior squadron officers,
department heads and the Carrier Command Master Chief (the only enlisted man
in the navy to rate a stateroom.) This is a single. It generally has a bunk
that folds into a couch, a desk, a refer, and a private or semi private
bath. (The doubles either share a bath between two rooms or like the
bunkroom has a common head located nearby.)

The final kind of stateroom is not a stateroom at all. It is a suite of
rooms, the accouterments of which would shame most luxury hotel rooms. These
are used by the ship's commanding officer, the executive officer, and the
group commander who is an admiral, and whose quarters are even more
luxurious than the commanding officer's.

The captain of the John F. Kennedy had a living room with a large screen TV,
VCR (This predated DVDs), stereo a couch, and several chairs arranged in a
sitting room. He had a dinning area capable of seating a dozen, around a
mahogany dining table. His bedroom was bigger than the entire 30 person
berthing compartment I lived in while on a destroyer. (On a carrier ratings
generally live in 130 person berthing compartments.) He also had an office.
This was personal space. Official meeting rooms, an official commanding
officer's office in another part of the ship and a sea cabin near the bridge
also belonged to him. In actuality he had more space than Jon luc Picard of
Star Trek fame. The quarters shown on the TV show are picayune compared to
the real quarters of a U.S. Navy Carrier captain.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of DeGraff, Jesse
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 6:21 PM
To: 'tml@travellercentral.com'
Subject: RE: [TML] Naval crew accommodation

My cousin served on the carrier USS America during the Gulf War.  Here was
the size of his "stateroom" ;)

"About 6'5"x 18" x 24""

Of course, he was only an avionics tech, so his stateroom was a bunk :)  I
think only officers had real staterooms, and then it was two officers per
closet-sized room.  I'll get more specific info later.  He was off to a
meeting and didn't have time to chat in IM.

Jesse


> -----Original Message-----
> From: David P. Summers [mailto:summers@alum.mit.edu]
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 2:43 PM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
>
>
> At 1:13 PM -0700 8/19/02, Bruce Johnson wrote:
> >>I sort of think a modern aircraft carrier is probably a good model
> >>for crew space...
> >
> >Probably, note, too, a modern Aircraft carrier has *scads* of room
> >for rec space...remember Roger Staubach kept up his throwing arm on
> >the deck of the carrier he was staioned on.
>
> I was sort of thinking that the stateroom space might be generally
> OK, if you give them the small quarters you see in places like
> "military diaries" on VH1 and take the extra space and make mess
> halls, assembly rooms, etc.
> --
> ______________________________
> summers@alum.mit.edu
> (This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but
> I'm in California.)
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 19:20:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 19 18:20:31 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast
Message-ID: <183.cf9fb30.2a92f333@aol.com>

 >The feeling of closeness.
 > ....
 >I'm sure there are military people on this list who
 >have spent months or years under the decks of large
 >ships, and could add to this if they'd like to...I
 >just wanted to share some impressions from a person
 >taking their first real tour of the innards of a very
 >large warship.  The ObTrav struck me while I was there,
 >thinking of what the innards of space stations and
 >battlecruisers might be like.

I spent six and a half years on a carrier.  It was only 20,000 tons or so by 
Traveller standards, and heavily compartmented, but even so some areas were 
very wide open.  At Christmas time when no-one was around you could stand at 
the aft end of the starboard 2nd deck passage and see half the length of the 
ship.  In engineering the machinery spaces were large and open.  Some of the 
shaft alleys were very large and wide-open, but were virtually unvisited.

I'd been on the ship for four years when I went forward into the airdale 
berthing looking for something.  I got completely lost, and had to look at 
the maps on the walls to find my way out.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 19:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Mon Aug 19 18:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockhead
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817211431.009e5a00@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3D615032.7050100@usisp.com>

>
>
> Have you looked at _GURPS Traveller: First In_?  It has a world design 
> system that addresses many of your concerns.  Based on current 
> scientific knowledge, it gives fascinating results.
>
    Thank you for the info. Alas, though, I probably will never see it 
as I live a good 1.5 hrs from a decent game store and I really don't 
want to buy yet another ruleset. Besides, I think that tinkering in such 
a manner may be how I play Traveller most often.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 19:26:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Mon Aug 19 18:26:15 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817205659.009e5cb0@mindspring.com> <3D60407A.27103.29B41BB@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D615336.4020405@usisp.com>

>
>
>>(the vegetarians, anywa--I understand the Hivers had some success in
>>modifying their disease). 
>>

    Do the K'kree add animal byproducts in the form of ground meal to 
their feed?
Sorta like a K'kree soylent green?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 19:27:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Mon Aug 19 18:27:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Rockheads
References: <14c.129ff25d.2a91303f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D6156E2.1030402@usisp.com>

>
>
>
>Not to sound catty, but my prefered way to improve upon the *format* of the 
>UWP is through a format expansion technique already part of Traveller. This 
>ancient and arcane technique is called Library Data.
>

    An admirable method, but one that does not specifically address what 
I perceive
as the weak points of the standard uwp.
    1. Starport types are pure random with no consideration of tech or 
population.
    2. Population is pure random with no consideration to local enviroment.
    3. Tech level is governed mainly by starport (pure random) with 
relatively little
        influence by any other statistic except lack of suitability for 
colonization and
        even giving a +1 dm for a small population.
    These are problems that prevent the worlds generated by the standard 
uwp from
fulfilling my ideas as to what Traveller should be. And like you, I use 
information
that is already part of the process to modify the process.
    I merely wish 'bug reports' , if you will, so that I can correct 
obvious flaws.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 19:28:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Mon Aug 19 18:28:40 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Rockheads
References: <20020818190006.10026.33198.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <vhf0mucaoffgth7o7jvk941jrll88rklca@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <3D615B35.7000603@usisp.com>

>
>Not to mention the alternative ways of encoding additional UWP data, as
>found in the DGP World Builders' Handbook, and the Extending the UWP series
>of articles in Doing It My Way at Freelance Traveller.
>
    While they are very helpful, they do not fix what I believe that 
they address
the things that I think are problematic.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 19:29:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Mon Aug 19 18:29:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockhead
References: <90.2a95b775.2a909c11@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D616092.1080608@usisp.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> >I welcome constructive criticism in order to improve it.
>
>I would say add some modifiers regarding proximity to other populated worlds. 
> Traveller canon says that the Spinward Main developed more rapidly than 
>worlds off of the Main because the Main worlds could be reached by jump 1 
>vessels, and that other worlds languished and were left behind.  If you study 
>the Main it is obvious that this modifier was not implemented, as the worlds 
>on the Main are indistinguishable from those off of it, but it makes sense to 
>actually implement such a modifier.  Say you have an A or 9 world with no 
>other A or 9 world within 6 parsecs -- it's not going to do much trading and 
>it's going to do a lot of work on its own.  But if you have two or three A or 
>9 worlds within 2 parsecs of each other then they'll trade a great deal in 
>both goods and technology.
>
    Perhaps the 'mature' dm for tech could be applied to the 'main', and 
the 'frontier'
dm could be applied could be applied to worlds more than 6 parsecs from 
the 'main'.
Could that interpretation work?




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 19:30:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Mon Aug 19 18:30:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economics
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEHKEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <3D61644C.1030703@usisp.com>

Terry Carlino wrote:

>"basically I only get that stuff when someone pries it
>out of the owners cold dead hand or the spouse sells it off after the
>divorce."
>
    Best compliment possible of the older rules....plus I have them 
already, so
that is what I shall play with.

>
>That being the case try to realize that quoting a book like Pocket Empires,
>as a source is somewhat problematic. First it's T4 material, which is
>generally considered to be rather poorly put together by many Traveller
>players. Second it models the early Imperium so like Trillion Credit
>Squadrons may not be said to accurately reflect the later Imperium, which is
>after all a full millennium in the future of the period described. Thirdly
>it is not available for direct research by many here, so if used as a source
>your post might be better if it included a sizable quote of the relevant
>material.
>
    T4 or not, 'Pocket Empires' is an excellent set of rules, just as 
long as one realizes
That it models economies and politics, but not much else. It is based on 
sound
economic theory ( but obviously simplified ).
    Do people in the late Imperium do business radically different than 
in Year 0?
Are the politics that much different?  If not, then why can these rules 
not simulate
trade and treaties during and after the Rebellion. If anything, it would 
seem ideal
to simulate a post-virus 'Second Night'.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 19:32:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Mon Aug 19 18:32:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <ML-2.3.1029777046.457.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3D616860.70000@usisp.com>

Anthony Jackson wrote:

>richard honeycutt writes:
>
>>    It is my opinion that tech level should be a measure of what the 
>>world is capable of
>>manufacturing on its own without outside influence.
>>
>
>In which case all Lo-pop worlds would be TL 5-, which is not the case in the
>OTU.  Also violates canon that suggests that worlds are dependent on trade to
>maintain their tech level.
>
    I agree, which is why, the question of what tech level means is 
important.
A lo-pop world would have lo-tech simply because it doesn't have enough 
people
to operate the manufacturing base to maintain higher tech levels. Does 
this mean
that lo-tech worlds do not have hi-tech goods available? No. High tech 
goods
will be available through trade as imports.
    Canon says that tech level  represents available goods. In my 
interpretation, that means
that they are available as imports and not locally manufactured. As 
imports, a world
must engage in trade to maintain a higher tech level.
    How is that in violation of canon? If it is as you suggest, then why 
aren't all worlds at
Imperial Tech? ( Unless there are major trade restrictions on those 
lo-tech worlds).
    I merely suggest that tech means manufactured goods as a way of 
determining what
a world can actually make for trade purposes, and use highest tech 
within a reasonable
distance as available tech (imported)
'world builder's handbook' tech section gives nice guidelines for import 
tech as novelties.
Otherwise, how about
     4 jumps to type a port                      for highest tech available
     3 jumps to type b port                      using whatever jump rating
     2 jumps to type c port                      a merchant has
     1 jump to type  d port

Thus perhaps there will be 2 tech levels listed



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 19:33:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Mon Aug 19 18:33:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Tech Levels (was warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
References: <20020819175301.50A5527989@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D616C3E.8090201@usisp.com>

>
>
>I think ya'll are putting way too much pressure on the simple TL
>measure. If you push as hard as ya'll want to push it, of course, it's
>going to break. IMO, the UWP's TL was never meant to carry a world's
>*entire* economy on its back.
>
    But it breaks without to much pressure on it at all. When it is used 
to determine
economies and simple pc trade&speculation and determine what players can
and cannot buy, it must be stronger than it is. And I think that it is 
just a matter
of rules interpretation. I have stated my arguments as clearly as I know 
how.

>The way I have always used TL is as a very general measure of the
>maximum tech level a traveller would find available around the
>Starport (if there is one) of a world. TL-F doesn't *have* to mean the
>world in question produces all of the items that a tech level 15 could
>produce, nor that all of those items are even available there, just
>that some TL 15 items can be procured there.  If the world is TL-F,
>Pop 7+, and has an A or B Starport then you've probably got a major
>producer and exporter of high tech. OTOH, if it is TL-F, with a low
>pop or a lesser Starport, then what you've probably got is a high tech
>importer.
>
    I do not suggest anything much different than that. But, in the case 
of the
lo-pop,lesser starport world that imports high tech....just what CAN 
they make
that actually can affect trade?
    My problems is with the way tech levels are assigned in the uwp. Two 
are necessary...
one for local produced goods and one for imported goods. That is all 
that I suggest.

>And just because you can find a TL-F jump drive widget at the A
>Starport, doesn't mean that once you step across the externalty line
>you'll find a world teeming with air/rafts and gravbelts. If it suits
>my (or any Referee's) purposes, a high-tech, high-pop, high-port world
>can still be primative out beyond the Starport.
>
>I suppose that reading tech level this way makes it hard to use it to
>figure out the macroeconomics of the Imperium. That doesn't bother me,
>because I'm not especially interested in Imperial macroeconomics. 
>
    We actually agree on the ultimate use of tech levels in the rpg.
I am interested in how it effects macroeconomics though, and  want
to know the 'real' tech level of a world. sans imported goods. It also
spurs my imagination on what the world might ultimately be like.
For my views on tech generation in the uwp, see my earlier posts.

>





From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 19:35:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Mon Aug 19 18:35:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Tech Levels (was warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
References: <ML-2.3.1029780221.1945.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3D616D06.30106@usisp.com>

>
>
>>
>>The way I have always used TL is as a very general measure of the
>>maximum tech level a traveller would find available around the
>>Starport (if there is one) of a world.
>>
>
>Ugh.  That's even worse, if the starport is active at all there _will_ be TL
>12-15 stuff findable near the port, regardless of the general wealth or TL of
>the world.
>
    If the world is poor, there may not be that many imports. Also if 
what you are saying
is true, then why aren't all worlds with starports at tech 15?






From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 19:36:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Mon Aug 19 18:36:56 2002
Subject: [TML] Tech Levels (was warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
References: <20020819183838.821F82798A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D617004.4040806@usisp.com>

>
>
>ps.  Totally as an aside, and not aimed at anyone in particular, but
>the list in general...I get the impression that many people on the TML
>aren't actually playing Traveller. They are just talking about it, and
>that is a shame! Traveller is, IMO, a game meant to be played, not
>just discussed or analysed.  It's starting to feel more like we're a
>bunch of baseball fans sitting around arguing over whether this dead
>guy or that dead guy was a better hitter, whether the designated
>hitter rule is ruining the game, or the ramifications of the infield
>fly rule on the little-game theory of baseball. Jimminy!  <g>
>
>Seriously, I think everyone on the list should find (or start) a
>Traveller game and play the game. Whether face to face, online, or
>even solo,  *playing* Traveller is what it's all about.
>
    Actually, this is how I play Traveller. I have noone to play with, 
and if I
wanted to play solo, I would be writing fiction about what my characters
are doing ( nearly done with chapter one ). I make up house rules to 
suit me,
and I share my ideas with people who might have a passing interest with 
them.
My rockhead and gearhead tendancies are from trying to develope a nice
background for my characters.
    Perhaps this is why others are on this list.
    My ftf gaming is usually reserved for miniatures ( civil war is fave 
) or
model railroading ( @ tech level 5 )

Getting crotchety in my old age :-P




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 19:38:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Mon Aug 19 18:38:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
References: <200208140119.MSJ03121@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <20020814182045.B22124@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D5C63AA.6020706@usisp.com>
Message-ID: <3D6170F4.2050407@usisp.com>

>
>
>> A detailed and self-consistent set of rules for NPC psychology in
>> general would be handy, including motivations, internal conflicts,
>> biases, thought patterns, and personality traits that aren't simple
>> advantages or disadvantages.  Non-human psychology as well, of course.
>>
>> Well, where is it?  I want it yesterday! 
>
    The Wuthering Heights Role Playing Game on the freerpg webring might
be a good place to harvest some ideas on how that might be done.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 19:40:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 19 18:40:40 2002
Subject: [TML] The Frontier Wars; The other side of the hill
Message-ID: <19a.740bea7.2a92f766@aol.com>

 >    Now, keeping my flight of fancy in mind, who absorbed whose territory?  
 >Did the Zho's take over Imperial colonies, or did they take back their own 
 >territories, or did they do both of those things?  Who should be griping 
 >about whom?  Who has the better claim?

Based on the canon I have available to me (Supplement 11, which I've already 
quoted), the Imperials do.  But of course, a "flight of fancy" is the purpose 
of an RPG, and the incidents you cite are valid.

 >Suddenly things aren't so black and 
 >white anymore, are they?  Rather, it's a pretty muddle of gray.  Binary 
 >thinking is really boring.

I've never thought so.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 19:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 19 18:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] talking vs playing
Message-ID: <1be.b57b1ee.2a92faa4@aol.com>

 >I get the impression that many people on the TML
 >aren't actually playing Traveller. They are just talking about it, and
 >that is a shame!

Well, yeah -- but it seems to me that that is _how_ some people play it.  
I've seen D&D groups spend four hours rolling up characters, and then go 
home.  What can you say?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 19:59:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Mon Aug 19 18:59:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : Autodocs are starting to appear
Message-ID: <000001c247ed$096e25b0$319d67cb@robert>

Jens Rydholm wrote:-
> At what TL would one expect to see automated emergency surgeons?

TTL 12. Progress in robotics and imaging/diagnostic tech are the main
requirements.

Non-portable versions could be available a tech-level earlier.


Robert O'Connor
Medico, gamer


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 20:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Maksim-Smelchak)
Date: Mon Aug 19 19:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Talking vs Playing games...
In-Reply-To: <1be.b57b1ee.2a92faa4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPIEALEGAA.max200@lanset.com>

I've found that gaming becomes more focussed if you take a break every few
weeks and play a "beer & pretzels" kind of game. When my group becomes
listless, I call the day and we play something less mindconsuming. The next
week, I provide a lot of background and story before we get back to gaming.

Cheers,
Maksim-Smelchak.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Flykiller@aol.com
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 6:52 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] talking vs playing
 >I get the impression that many people on the TML
 >aren't actually playing Traveller. They are just talking about it, and
 >that is a shame!

Well, yeah -- but it seems to me that that is _how_ some people play it.
I've seen D&D groups spend four hours rolling up characters, and then go
home. What can you say?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 20:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon Aug 19 19:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Rockheads
In-Reply-To: <3D6156E2.1030402@usisp.com>
Message-ID: <20020820021718.11ED32793A@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/19/02 at 04:36 PM,  richard honeycutt <richard@usisp.com> said:



>    An admirable method, but one that does not specifically address
>what  I perceive
>as the weak points of the standard uwp.
>    1. Starport types are pure random with no consideration of tech
>or  population.
>    2. Population is pure random with no consideration to local
>enviroment.
>    3. Tech level is governed mainly by starport (pure random) with 
>relatively little
>        influence by any other statistic except lack of suitability
>for  colonization and
>        even giving a +1 dm for a small population.

Have you ever looked at JimV's Alternate UWP Generation Rules that are
buried in the Galactic 2.4 program? If you have Galactic, go to "About
this Program" on the main menu, then "Homebrew rules."  He addresses
the problems you have.

Eris

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 20:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug 19 19:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] talking vs playing
Message-ID: <200208200231.NDP00134@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Flykiller says
>I've seen D&D groups spend four hours rolling up characters, 
>and then go home.  What can you say?

I remember in the early days, we would roll characters in 
about 20 minutes, spend about the same time getting 
equipment, and play until dawn.

Nowadays, if I play, we spend two hours rolling characters 
and talking about the good old days.  Another two hours of 
equipment and talk, and then the adventure starts, and 
devolves into a "remember when you..."

We talk until dawn.  I *still* enjoy that.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 20:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug 19 19:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <F2159TBbA4Y9Nt16gM40000c7e9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020819223139.0284b008@192.168.0.1>

At 01:57 PM 8/19/2002 +0000, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
[snip]
>  Chicago has a WW2 German U-boat.

I was in Chicago a few weeks ago and got to go on the tour of the U-505.
It's a short tour....You enter just forward of the aft torpedo room and 
exit just aft of the forward torpedo room.
It's big on the outside, but when you account for the double hull, fuel, 
batteries, and the torpedo load (and those are big torpedos), that doesn't 
leave much room.

Hot bunking with food stores everywhere, at least in the beginning of the 
trip...
Not the accommodations you would want for a long space tour.

Now, probably standard for small Terran craft during the early Interstellar 
Wars...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ferret: Chaos with fur, claws and an odd smell.
          http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 20:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug 19 19:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Solomani influences
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020819223855.026baeb8@mail.charter.net>

Seeing http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/solcourier.htm 
reminded of my trip to the Boston Science Museum yesterday.
That's where I saw the prototype autodoc on display.

One of the other exhibits flashes a very bright image in your eyes, for 
experiments with after images.

The image burned into your brain...the Solomani cross in circle as shown on 
the ship Jesse designed...



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
And, isn't sanity really just a one trick pony anyway? I mean, all you get
is one trick: rational thinking. But when you're good and crazy, ooo hoo
hoo, the sky's the limit! - The Tick  http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 20:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Mon Aug 19 19:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
References: <20020819200248.4609.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3D61AD22.2A640160@mindspring.com>

Paul Walker wrote:
> 
> --- "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> > At 7:11 PM -0700 8/18/02, Paul Walker wrote:
> > >--- Eris Reddoch <erisred@telocity.com> wrote:
> > >>  On 08/17/02 at 12:27 PM,  alan spik
> > >>  <babyduck@mindspring.com> said:
> > >>
> > >>  >No hot bunking except in emergencies.
> > >>
> > >>  I'd like to point out that if you have gravity
> > >>  control, you don't have
> > >>  to have "bunks", containment webbing will do.
> > Stack
> > >>  'em up like
> > >>  cordwood! <g>
> > >
> > >While I wouldn't deny the legitimate gripes of
> > those
> > >who have spent lengthy time on a sailing vessel, I
> > am
> > >surprised that no one has mentioned the fact that
> > the
> > >crew onboard a starship doesn't have a deck to
> > visit.
> > >There is something to be said to being able to go
> > >"above" and have the open sky above you that you
> > can't
> > >do on a starship.  Still, you need to have a
> > certain
> > >amount of "personal" space, but the open deck is
> > >something.
> >
> > Which would be like being on a submarine.  Of course
> > those had the
> > most cramped spaces in the modern navy?  I sort of
> > think a modern
> > aircraft carrier is probably a good model for crew
> > space...
> 
> Perhaps one of our ex-Navy brethren can enlighten us,
> but I doubt Subs spend 7+ days at a time under the
> surface of the ocean blue.  I would be curious as to
> how much deck time an average sailor and/or submariner
> gets in our (or any for that matter) Navy.
> 


IIRC the patrol of a sub was ~90 days of that time the average
submariner could expect to see 0 hrs of sky, ocean. A lucky? few on the
sail would get to see these sights until the boat submerged ~3 hrs after
leaving the pier and when it returned to port. On rare occasions the sub
would surface at sea and those same lucky? few would get to see more sky
and sea. Sometimes this would be the occasion of exciting interactions
with the locals. According to my bubblehead BIL.
On the USS Wichita I saw sky and sea every day. I could spend several
hrs a day lounging watching it instead of the ships entertainment
channel. 
-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith,
I consider a capacity for it terrifying and absolutely vile!
                         -Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 20:59:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug 19 19:59:05 2002
Subject: [TML] View before eating
In-Reply-To: <00f901c247b5$29c31a60$8e2ef7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020819225650.02a5eeb0@192.168.0.1>

At 03:18 PM 8/19/2002 -0400, Fred Ramen wrote:
[snip]
 > As per our
>agreement, the Sum of Cr 5000, ten boxes of Aramis cigars, and a     case of
>Zilan wine are now payable to me on demand, which you may consider this note
>to         be.
>
>     I remain, etc.,
>
>     Larsen E. Whipsnade
>
>     PS Do not substitute Garda-Villisian tobacco for the cigars as I am no
>fool.

Thanks! I just added plentiful, low quality tobacco as an export crop to 
the Garda-Vilis Landgrab! :-)

Probably popular in the low income sections of Vilis' urban centers.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Mort Sahl: General, aren't you supporting Castro by smoking that Havana cigar?
Alexander Haig: I prefer to think of it as burning his crops to the ground.
(from an interview of Mort Sahl on National Public Radio, 23nov91)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 21:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Mon Aug 19 20:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Technology Marches On - Traveller-like APCs Arrive?
Message-ID: <20020819224829.a08fd142371542db9811e428fc2e22d1.in@keywest.kennett.net>

Well, it did say it was for LIGHT INFANTRY....

Unfortunately, since CoS Eric Shinseki is probably hoping to run for office
when he retires (The best explanation for the new LAV-type vehicles, the
questionable Medium Brigade Concept, the idiotic decision to give the entire
Army berets like its a bunch of Third World thug-army...), it will no doubt
this procurement will be botched.

Can they put into production the M-113 IFV variant they once considered?

Perhaps they are hoping the Air Force is going to procure more of the latest
version of the Hercules...

C.T.

>And, according to a former paratrooper who's opinion I trust, it's a POS. 
>It's half-again as heavy and twice as complicated as the other APC it was 
>compared to, the Gavin II (a newer version of the M-113), It can only be 
>carried in a C-130 if it's totally unloaded, no ammo, no fuel, no spares, and 
>no crew, and if the air is let out of the tires. It's incidence of breakdown 
>was almost twice as often as the Gavin due almost entirely to the newly 
>designed transmission system. And, whereas the Gavin already has plenty of 
>spare parts in the Army's logistics chain, and the mechanics know how to fix 
>anything that might go wrong with it, the Stryker would require a whole new 
>system of spare parts be acquired and all the mechanics be retrained.
>
>What the Stryker is is a project whereby soon-to-be-retired Army generals and 
>colonels ensure that the military arms manufacturers they are soon to be 
>employed by get fat new contracts.
>
>The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette has this article on the Stryker. One of the 
>Pennsylvania National Guard units is one of the first to be equipped with 
>this new toy.
>http://www.post-gazette.com/nation/20020320mobilenat4p4.asp
>
>Doug Grimes


"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 21:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Mon Aug 19 20:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
References: <20020819165435.1DFB3279BB@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D61B2F1.AE7BBD27@pobox.com>

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> ...
> To your list, let me add the USS Alabama in Mobile Bay. ...

And, while we're touring the South, the USS Kidd , DD-661,
http://www.usskidd.com/

WKH


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 21:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Aug 19 20:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Technology Marches On - Traveller-like APCs Arrive?
In-Reply-To: <20020819224829.a08fd142371542db9811e428fc2e22d1.in@keywest.kennett.net>
References: <20020819224829.a08fd142371542db9811e428fc2e22d1.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <1029813197.3d61b3cdeef27@www.paradise.net.nz>

Quoting Cheng Tseng <cxt217@kennett.net>:

> Well, it did say it was for LIGHT INFANTRY....
> 
> Unfortunately, since CoS Eric Shinseki is probably hoping to run for
> office
> when he retires (The best explanation for the new LAV-type vehicles,
> the
> questionable Medium Brigade Concept, the idiotic decision to give the
> entire
> Army berets like its a bunch of Third World thug-army...), it will no
> doubt
> this procurement will be botched.

Hey! Our army is not a third-world thug army! 
I doubt the British see theirs as being one, either.

-- 
Rupert Boleyn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 21:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Mon Aug 19 20:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Clean data
In-Reply-To: <003001c247c6$355ed7e0$8d30f7c2@imogen>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHGEDKIOAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>



I've been looking at the  quality  of  the  sector  data  in  the
electronic files on the net recently.  I started by comparing the
electronic version of the Spinward Marches  to  the  original  CT
Supplement 3.  In addition to obveous typos there are a number of
cases where the original data  is  not  valid  according  to  the
standard system generation rules ... and the  electronic  version
has the nearest legal value.

Now I'm planning on  performing  a  data  clearing  exercise  and
posting the  results  in  a  number  of  different  formats  (for
Heaven&Earth,  World  Builders   Deluxe,   TrTools,   etc).   I'm
proposing that (for circa 1105) we start with Supplement  3  plus
the stellar data from Spinward Marches Campaign ... but take  the
*corrections* given in the HES  file  for  *physical*  stats.  In
other words accept that while the *social* stats in Supplement  3
may not be generatable by  the  standard  rules  they  are  still
canon.  The supporting argument for this is that (IIRC)  GDW  has
stated in  the  past  that  some  of  the  sectors  (older,  more
established sectors) were generated with houserule  additions  to
social stats.

I'd like the list's opinion: if sector files were made  available
that had been 'cleaned' in this way  (and  assuming  people  were
confident in the accuracy of  the  cleaning  process)  would  you
accept them as definative?

(I also realise that cleaning sectors  other  than  the  Spinward
Marches would be problematic as there is a  lack  of  alternative
sources.)

Regards PLST

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

I tend to think of hard copy stuff my players are liable to have as
more canonical then anything else, after that native sector and so forth 
data that comes with software -- always reserving the GM privilege
of altering anything I want.

Personally, I like to see a header(s) showing what the darn 
house rules are.  Problem areas, according to commonly agreed 
on criteria would be nice too.

**********************************************
Data info

Date produced *******
Time line date   *******
produced by jml

Based on Rice Papers
Pixie-nuke filtering  
	No pop 3 world can have better then a SP C
	No pop 1 world can have other then a  SP X
**********************************************

**********************************************
Danger Will Robinson

Foo 0104 has a type X Spaceport and TL 15
Bar 0505 has a Size 0 and Hyd A

and so on

**********************************************

Some sort of vaguely canonical historic
data of the Spinward marches -- Granddad 
to date of course -- would be a fastinating
read.

jml

__________________
"Truth is like falsehood  . . ..only correstor."

jmlotzn1@pacbell.net
__________________


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 21:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Mon Aug 19 20:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Technology Marches On - Traveller-like APCs Arrive?
In-Reply-To: <1029813197.3d61b3cdeef27@www.paradise.net.nz>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHKEDKIOAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

:
:
 (The best explanation for the new LAV-type vehicles,
> the
> questionable Medium Brigade Concept, 

Did anyone else look at the whole medium Brigade concept 
and think if you squint those sure look like Army issue
Marines up to and including ripping off their LAV's

jml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 21:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Mon Aug 19 20:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The Frontier Wars; The other side of the hill
References: <19a.740bea7.2a92f766@aol.com>
Message-ID: <010801c247f9$eba76480$7400a8c0@matt>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
>>    Now, keeping my flight of fancy in mind, who absorbed whose
>> territory?
>  >Did the Zho's take over Imperial colonies, or did they take back
> their own  >territories, or did they do both of those things?  Who
> should be griping  >about whom?  Who has the better claim?
>
> Based on the canon I have available to me (Supplement 11, which I've
> already quoted), the Imperials do.  But of course, a "flight of
> fancy" is the purpose of an RPG, and the incidents you cite are valid.

Hmmm, Supplement 11... thats Library Data N-Z... *Imperial* Library data,
with an Imperial slant on things...

Of course it would say the Imperium wuz robbed...

:-)

Matt




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 21:32:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Mon Aug 19 20:32:13 2002
Subject: Vulcan bits - was RE: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F1683@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <000101c247fa$282fe9e0$6501a8c0@Darla>

There is a Vulcan on display at the Castle Air Museum near Merced, CA.
Quite a striking looking airplane.  

I wonder how large a donation would motivate them to let you make a
casting of the stick grip?

TWB

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com [mailto:tml-
> admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of DeGraff, Jesse
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 11:14 AM
> To: 'tml@travellercentral.com'
> Subject: Vulcan bits - was RE: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly
of
> the beast (long)
> 
> > As I mentioned before, in the UK it's possible to buy a lot
> > of interesting "out of date" items.  If the list could put
> > the money together, and get a UK buyer, we could, say,
> > purchase a Vulcan bomber.
> 
> If we DO purchase a Vulcan bomber (or anyone on the list has one ;) I
need
> to pour a silicone mold of the control stick.  It was used in the film
> "Aliens", and I could easily sell copies to prop collectors :D
> 
> Jesse
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 21:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Mon Aug 19 20:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
References: <20020819021101.34955.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com> <p04330104b986f5047d97@[143.232.119.186]> <3D615154.80806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3D619EF3.5030703@usisp.com>

>  Probably, note, too, a modern Aircraft carrier has *scads* of room 
> for rec space...remember Roger Staubach kept up his throwing arm on 
> the deck of the carrier he was staioned on. 


    But if you got hurt playing tackle football on deck, you got written up
for damaging government property, same thing if you got badly sunburned.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 21:40:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Mon Aug 19 20:40:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
References: <20020819200248.4609.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3D619E69.4090003@usisp.com>

>
>
>
>Perhaps one of our ex-Navy brethren can enlighten us,
>but I doubt Subs spend 7+ days at a time under the
>surface of the ocean blue.  I would be curious as to
>how much deck time an average sailor and/or submariner
>gets in our (or any for that matter) Navy.
>
    I was on the Kitty Hawk cv-63, but one of the IC men I had to work with
Was on one of the  subs. He said the stayed under months at a time. When 
they
came into port and opened the hatches, you could see the fumes and 
dander fly out.
His wife had to burn all his uniforms because the smell wouldn't come out.
He never noticed the smell because it built up over a long period of time.
Thats as close to deep space travel humans do.
    I got lots of deck time because of my job on the flight deck....even 
when I didn't
want it..oh well hazardous pay was nice.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 21:41:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Mon Aug 19 20:41:38 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast
References: <183.cf9fb30.2a92f333@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D61A487.1060406@usisp.com>

>
>
>
>I spent six and a half years on a carrier.  It was only 20,000 tons or so by 
>Traveller standards, and heavily compartmented, but even so some areas were 
>very wide open.  At Christmas time when no-one was around you could stand at 
>the aft end of the starboard 2nd deck passage and see half the length of the 
>ship.  In engineering the machinery spaces were large and open.  Some of the 
>shaft alleys were very large and wide-open, but were virtually unvisited.
>
>I'd been on the ship for four years when I went forward into the airdale 
>berthing looking for something.  I got completely lost, and had to look at 
>the maps on the walls to find my way out.
>
    There is  one thing I can add to this, as I was on cv-63 for 4 1/2 
years...
While I slept in a large 130 person berthing compartment ( my rack was 
directly
under no. 3 wire in arresting gear ), I rarely spent my off time there. 
When I
wasn't at work, I hung out in my shop where I kept most of my personal 
stuff.
 Of course I was lucky that I could have a shop that I only had to share 
with
at most, 3 other guys.
    So working areas can count as personal space just as much as your bunk,




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 21:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Mon Aug 19 20:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <20020819222844.14677.qmail@web20414.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000301c247fc$35581190$6501a8c0@Darla>

Since golf was mentioned, why is it that a golfer needs absolute silence
to strike a stationary ball in front of him, while a ballplayer is
expected to hit a ball being thrown past (and sometimes AT) him at 90MPH
or so while 50,000 spectators scream at the top of their lungs?

ObTrav: Will popular sports in the Traveller universe be more or less
violent than those we know today?

TWB


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 21:48:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Mon Aug 19 20:48:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Damned Silly Questions
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHKEAGIOAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <000401c247fc$78e0bc00$6501a8c0@Darla>

I no longer feel silly that I allowed a group of players to name their
ship the "Broken Wind".

TWB


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 21:53:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 19 20:53:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
Message-ID: <bc.2affffd2.2a9316ec@aol.com>

 >My cousin served on the carrier USS America during the Gulf War.  Here was 
the
 >size of his "stateroom" ;)
 
 "About 6'5"x 18" x 24""

Yep.  I slept in one of those for six years.  Oh, and I had to lift it, with 
all my stuff, off of the deck every morning.  My berthing area was in the 
fantail, and when the ship made 30+ knots the entire aft end bounced around 
like a model T on a rough road.  I liked it -- it helped me sleep -- but 
no-one else did.  Immediately above us was an airdale sheet metal shop with 
this huge shearing machine that could cut a piece of metal 20 feet long -- 
and their working hours were 2200 to 0600.  I'd be in a deep sleep at 0200 
when all of a sudden there would be this tremendous boom and the deck would 
jump about a quarter inch.

And every single time a plane would come in for a landing the overpressure 
would slam open the door to the head.  And all the while I'd be thinking, "Is 
this the time he misses the deck and bellies out on the round-down and dumps 
a thousand pounds of burning jet fuel into my space?"  Whoosh.  "Safe this 
time."  Incoming aircraft:  "Is this the time etc".  For six years.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 22:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Aug 19 21:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Solomani influences
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020819223855.026baeb8@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <B9870F7C.6A360%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/19/02 7:41 PM, Mark Urbin at urbin@bigfoot.com wrote:

> Seeing http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/solcourier.ht=
m
> reminded of my trip to the Boston Science Museum yesterday.
> That's where I saw the prototype autodoc on display.
>=20
> One of the other exhibits flashes a very bright image in your eyes, for
> experiments with after images.
>=20
> The image burned into your brain...the Solomani cross in circle as shown =
on
> the ship Jesse designed...
>=20

When we went on vacation this summer, we only stayed in SolSec approved
hotels.

see: http://solsec.org/media/sol_hotel.jpg

Tod

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 22:13:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 19 21:13:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Not So Silly Questions
Message-ID: <70.21865794.2a931b86@aol.com>

 >A silly thought in answer to a silly question: Have you considered using 
 >the names of some of the T.S. Eliot cats?

"The Naming of Ships is a difficult matter,
  It isn't just one of your holiday games;
You may think at first I'm as mad as a hatter
When I tell you a ship must have THREE DIFFERENT NAMES."

I was on the USS Carl Vinson, CVN-70.  That is its official name.  It's 
official nickname was, originally, Starship (ripoff), but the Enterprise got 
mad so it was changed to Battlestar (barf).  I have cups with both.  The 
website now says its official nickname is Gold Eagle (whatever).  But we 
squids always just called it the Chucky V.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 22:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon Aug 19 21:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <000301c247fc$35581190$6501a8c0@Darla>
Message-ID: <20020820041825.88C7427A02@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/19/02 at 10:46 PM,  "Thomas Barnes" <twb3@charter.net> said:

>Since golf was mentioned, why is it that a golfer needs absolute
>silence to strike a stationary ball in front of him, while a
>ballplayer is expected to hit a ball being thrown past (and sometimes
>AT) him at 90MPH or so while 50,000 spectators scream at the top of
>their lungs?

Because the fiction we maintain is that golfers, and their observers,
are ladies and gentlemen, while baseball players, and their fans, are
the hoi poli. <g>

>ObTrav: Will popular sports in the Traveller universe be more or less
>violent than those we know today?

IMTU, it's about the same. Gravball is like handball not a team sport,
but there are team sports similar to football (in several of it's
forms), basketball, baseball/cricket variants, tennis and golf...among
others. 

Eris

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 22:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon Aug 19 21:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEIMEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEIMEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <m37kimm9zr.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Terry Carlino" <carlino@cox.net> writes:
>
> The quarters shown on the TV show are picayune compared to the real
> quarters of a U.S. Navy Carrier captain.

That's because, AFAICT, a USN carrier captain wields far more power
than any Star Trek `captain.'  But I could be biased:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Democracy is a form of government that substitutes election by the
incompetent many for appointment by the corrupt few.   --G.B. Shaw

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 22:49:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon Aug 19 21:49:13 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <000301c247fc$35581190$6501a8c0@Darla>
References: <000301c247fc$35581190$6501a8c0@Darla>
Message-ID: <m31y8um9sh.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Thomas Barnes" <twb3@charter.net> writes:
>
> Since golf was mentioned, why is it that a golfer needs absolute
> silence to strike a stationary ball in front of him, while a
> ballplayer is expected to hit a ball being thrown past (and
> sometimes AT) him at 90MPH or so while 50,000 spectators scream at
> the top of their lungs?

'Cause golf requires thought & concentration, while baseball requires
wallop?  If a golfer had the accuracy a batter does, he'd never win
the Drunken Churchwomen's Tournament...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Democracy consists of choosing your dictators, after they've told you what
you think it is you want to hear.                             --Alan Coren

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 22:50:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon Aug 19 21:50:32 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <3D617255.1090908@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <200208191429.NCQ00397@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <3D617255.1090908@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <m3wuqmkv5r.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:
> 
> Actually, other federal agencies can purchase planes from the
> boneyards, and until the mid to late 70's so could citizens.
> 
> Alas, they were being purchased here, gassed up, flown south and
> often caught coming here again, full of pot and/or coke.
> 
> After a few of these episodes, they suspended civilian sales of
> aircraft.

Sigh.  Yet _another_ casualty of the drug war.  Y'all realise that the
various Prohibitions have been behind more nonsense than just about
anything else in American history?  Sigh...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
You never need a weapon until you need one badly.  --Jay Maynard

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 23:04:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Aug 19 22:04:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
Message-ID: <20020820043646.55829.qmail@web11308.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
> Ref:  "Have you ever heard that high whine with the
> increasing pitch that a camera flash makes before it
> is fully charged?"
> Player:  "Yes."
> Ref:  "You're hearing that right now."

This is even worse if you happen to know about some of
the things that need that sort of power build-up to
trigger. <eg> Just think of all the nasties that need
a pulse of high voltage, high current power. 
Everything from jury-rigged EMP bombs to homevuilt
nukes.
END QUOTE

Incidently NEVER NEVER pull open a flash, charge it up
and then touch it! The feeling returned to my hand
about a day later! I was twelve at the time ;)

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://digital.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Digital How To
- Get the best out of your PC!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 23:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Simon Brodie)
Date: Mon Aug 19 22:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Talking vs Playing games...
References: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPIEALEGAA.max200@lanset.com>
Message-ID: <005601c2480a$f8ac27e0$0568ff3e@bloodyhellfire>

I always find that Paranoia is an excellent game for your players to unwind
and relax to when you want a week off from the 'heavy stuff'.

And the benefit to you as a GM (if you want to be really sneaky) is to play
the paranoia at a critical pause in your Traveller game.  This means that
after playing Paranoia, the players will (unconsciously) be very, very
careful and suspicious.

:-)

Simon

----- Original Message -----
From: "Maksim-Smelchak" <max200@lanset.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: 20 August 2002 2:52 AM
Subject: [TML] Talking vs Playing games...


> I've found that gaming becomes more focussed if you take a break every few
> weeks and play a "beer & pretzels" kind of game. When my group becomes
> listless, I call the day and we play something less mindconsuming. The
next
> week, I provide a lot of background and story before we get back to
gaming.
>
> Cheers,
> Maksim-Smelchak.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Flykiller@aol.com
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 6:52 PM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] talking vs playing
>  >I get the impression that many people on the TML
>  >aren't actually playing Traveller. They are just talking about it, and
>  >that is a shame!
>
> Well, yeah -- but it seems to me that that is _how_ some people play it.
> I've seen D&D groups spend four hours rolling up characters, and then go
> home. What can you say?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 23:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 19 22:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
Message-ID: <89.1c8c270d.2a932dac@aol.com>

 >I saw less time above deck on a carrier than I ever did on smaller ships
 >(frigates, destroyers or cruisers.) This was due to the fact that "outside"
 >is almost exclusively the domain of the flight deck crew. Submariners spend
 >very littler time either on the surface or in port (while deployed.) When on
 >the surface they have almost no "deck space" nor are very many sailors
 >allowed on deck at that time.

I used to go up on vulture row on the 09 level to watch the planes land.  It 
was something to do.  One day they halted flight ops and called an all-hands 
FOD walkdown.  I didn't go, I was too tired.  Some seamen were up there with 
me, and they didn't go either.  The Air Boss on the 010 level saw us and was 
wroth at our lack of participation.  He sent a messenger to collect us, and 
when we arrived the assistant chewed us out for about a minute.  The seamen 
were terrified, and he let them go, but I stood there non-chalantly and just 
said "yes sir".  The Air Boss didn't like my attitude, and said so, telling 
his assistant to retain me for more serious chewing after he finished with 
another matter.  The assistant looked me over, and noticed the minimag 
flashlight I had hung on my belt.  As he presented me to the Air Boss he 
said, "He has one of those flashlights, he's one of the good guys."  The Air 
Boss took note of my minimag, and I could see on his face he decided to 
change his approach with me.  He told me to come stand in his place and look 
down on the flight deck, while he stood behind me and explained to me why FOD 
walkdowns were so important.

I stood in the window of the 010 level and looked down.  It was stunning.  
The sky was brilliant blue, the ocean lovely green.  I hadn't been above 
decks in weeks.  The bow was slowly and majestically rising and falling in 
the waves.  The ship's bell was rung, and I suddenly wondered why that hated 
bell didn't blast and pain my ears as it always did -- I looked at the 
overhead speaker, and saw that _this_ one had a volume control on it, and as 
I watched the assistant turned it down even lower.  As the Air Boss's voice 
buzzed quietly in my ears about the dangers FOD posed to aircraft, the Air 
Boss noticed something he wanted done, and he quietly spoke directly to the 
entire flight deck crew through a microphone.  Far below me I saw dozens of 
men running slowly across the flight deck to do his bidding.  I was high 
above the world, in a quiet and air-conditioned space with clean polite men 
of power.  I felt like a god on Mount Olympus, and I stood in silent 
contemplation of what I was seeing.

I barely heard the Air Boss finish his dissertation on FOD, and I just caught 
him saying "I hope you see things differently now."  Looking down on the 
world, I said very firmly, "Yes."  Then I turned to this man who judged me by 
my flashlight, and I looked him straight in the eye and said with great 
conviction, "Yes sir, I do."  He was taken aback by my sudden sincerity, and 
after a moment dismissed me without another word.

I went back down to the noise and dirt and heat and sleeplessness of 
engineering and the crew.  I didn't visit vulture row again for years.  And 
every time that cursed bell blasted in my ears I remembered that volume 
control up on the 010 level.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 23:32:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Mon Aug 19 22:32:05 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <20020820011937.b439407d736f4a22ad30eb9902397dec.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:
>> 
>> Actually, other federal agencies can purchase planes from the
>> boneyards, and until the mid to late 70's so could citizens.
>> 
>> Alas, they were being purchased here, gassed up, flown south and
>> often caught coming here again, full of pot and/or coke.
>> 
>> After a few of these episodes, they suspended civilian sales of
>> aircraft.
>
>Sigh.  Yet _another_ casualty of the drug war.  Y'all realise that the
>various Prohibitions have been behind more nonsense than just about
>anything else in American history?  Sigh...

Well, I am not going to support a change in domestic policy that is going to
fund rebels undermining countries in South America.

C.T.


"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 23:35:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 19 22:35:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
Message-ID: <5a.103459f2.2a932ed7@aol.com>

 >Really junior officers can actually be relegated to bunk rooms, each having
 >no more than eight bunks. These are generally used only for black shoe
 >officers (surface warfare officers who run the ships systems.) No flight
 >officer, or even flight support officer would ever be relegated to one of
 >these.

Some of those flight officer cabins are at the head of a catapault.  Try 
sleeping there during flight ops.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 23:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 19 22:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <12f.162c539b.2a93319b@aol.com>

 >>>(the vegetarians, anywa--I understand the Hivers had some success in
 >>>modifying their disease). 
 >>>
 >
 >    Do the K'kree add animal byproducts in the form of ground meal to 
 >their feed?
 >Sorta like a K'kree soylent green?

Do you think this will lead to Mad K'kree Disease?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 23:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 19 22:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockhead
Message-ID: <17f.cfe7ed1.2a9332d3@aol.com>

 >    Perhaps the 'mature' dm for tech could be applied to the 'main', and 
 >the 'frontier'
 >dm could be applied could be applied to worlds more than 6 parsecs from 
 >the 'main'.
 >Could that interpretation work?

Well, factually, since you're the referee, then you can just up and say that 
it works.  I don't think it's possible to discuss much of Traveller in any 
scientific sense -- most of it simply doesn't exist, so it's like trying to 
decide how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.  So long as the rules 
are reasonable, internally consistent, and make for a good RPG, then that 
should be enough.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 00:08:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ken Murphy)
Date: Mon Aug 19 23:08:05 2002
Subject: [TML] The return of Disentagrators, Dragon style
Message-ID: <F30XnnGvgntdb2HVZSO0001787c@hotmail.com>

   [Tap-Tap] Hello? [Tap-Tap-Tap]
   Hello?Is this thing on? [Tap-Tap]....
   Hi ya Frankie, did you ever successfully receive my email address?
   Awaiting the previously mentioned article with fingers tightly crossed :)
   Thanks in advance.
  -Ken Murphy-
   aka
   MurfNMurf@aol.com
   or
   MurfNMurf@hotmail.com



_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 01:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 20 00:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
References: <12f.162c539b.2a93319b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D61EEE2.7F552888@wave.co.nz>


Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>  >    Do the K'kree add animal byproducts in the form of ground meal to
>  >their feed?
>  >Sorta like a K'kree soylent green?
>
> Do you think this will lead to Mad K'kree Disease?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
And how would this be different from now??
Really, how much more mad can they get?

Jonathan



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 04:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Aug 20 03:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020815232004.009f60d0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20820.030913.4C8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 02:36 PM 8/15/02 -0700, you wrote:
>>John T. Kwon writes:
>>
>> > Actually, if you've been to either the Army or Marine Sniper
>> > training, I would regard you as less likely to do something
>> > stupid with a rifle than almost anyone else.
>>
>>Well, being selected for sniper training does generally imply that the 
> people
>>doing the selection think you have the mentality to be able to look closely 
> at
>>people and then shoot them, which is one of those mental traits that make 
>>other
>>people nervous.
>
> Not just that, but evaluate and choose the person who will be killed.  You 
> have to be able to say "I will kill that Colonel first, then the radioman." 
> and do it.

I assume that's because you *have* to get the Colonel, but getting the
radionan is "merely" very important.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 04:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Long)
Date: Tue Aug 20 03:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Playing or discussing
In-Reply-To: <20020819190005.4218.86000.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c24835$89bb1140$8f76063e@MakaiSoft.com>

> From: "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>
> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 13:38:37 -0500
>
> ps.  Totally as an aside, and not aimed at anyone in particular, but
> the list in general...I get the impression that many people on the TML
> aren't actually playing Traveller. They are just talking about it, and
> that is a shame! Traveller is, IMO, a game meant to be played, not
> just discussed or analysed.
>
Well, I don't know about anyone else, but I have to admit that I'm not
playing at all... and haven't for many years. Until quite recently I was
living in the Arabian Gulf; there aren't many FLGS there (I never found ONE,
in fact) and a similar number of players.

Now I'm back in the UK (and currently unemployed) I have more time to start
playing with the bits that can be done solo - rockheading, gearheading,
etc - until I can find anyone else to play FTF.

Alas, there are also a very small number of FLGS in my home town too. there
is ONE (listed in the S.J. Games database) but they stock Warhammer and
(some) D20 (fortunately they had a copy of GURPS:TS which I snarfed at
once - but that was the only GURPS title)

Anyone in the Somerset/West of England area wants to play Traveller?

Andy
--
 Andrew Long            Email   AndrewGLong@Yahoo.com (Preferred)
 1 Court Hill                   AndyLong@Ecossetel.com
 Taunton                Phone   +44 (7817) 533382 (Mobile/UK)
 TA1 4SX                        +44 (1823) 337322 (Home/UK)
 England                        (+971 (50) 521 3651 Mobile/UAE)
--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 05:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Tue Aug 20 04:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Zhodani tech development (Was: Victory in the Frontier Wars)
In-Reply-To: <m3ptwerjfd.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <3D618968.15874.CCFF7C@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D62D35F.31040.5D5ED1F@localhost>

On 19 Aug 2002, at 8:51, Robert Uhl wrote:

> "Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> writes:

> > cooperative communities (one might also mention the mass extinction
> > of over 50% of native species and the total destruction of our
> > megafauna, but one may assume that future interstellar colonists
> > would be somewhat more environmentally aware).

> What, you mean indigenous peoples aren't gentle stewards of the
> environment?  The Thought Police will be by shortly to re-educate
> you:-)

They wiped out the Haast Eagle (imagine a 13kg eagle with a 3m wingspan 
and talons that would put a tiger to shame).


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 05:43:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Tue Aug 20 04:43:09 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <20020819231505.44062.qmail@web20419.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3D62D35F.15062.5D5ED15@localhost>

On 19 Aug 2002, at 16:15, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:

> >that Sweden swept down on anyone?
>
> Their last military adventurism was about 1740, but those "I Am Curious"
> movies from the 1960s nearly brought down western civilization. 

I'm still convinced that Abba constituted some form of violation of the 
Geneva conventions.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 06:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 20 05:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
Message-ID: <005401c24841$368bc940$81000140@k62500>

Hello Richard Honeycutt and all others on the board,

I spent 20-years in the USN, 4 subs, 1 sub tender, and various barracks. =
Reading through some of the related posts I will try to answer questions =
on accommodations and underway time.

 My first three subs were boomers (missile boats), USS T. A. Edison =
SSBN610, Sam Rayburn SSBN635, and USS Nathanael Greene SSBN636, standard =
routine was 3 months deployed and 3 months in port while the other crew =
did the opposite. A standard patrol cycle usually had the boat =
underwater for approximately 60 days, my longest sustained underway =
period was 74 days submerged. Of course the boat did come up to =
periscope depth and extend various masts, snorkel normally, and =
antennas. Most of the junior personnel had to hot rack (share the same =
bunk which is about 6'5"x 18" x 24"), which had a hinged bunk pan and =
storage space underneath. Other sleeping accommodations could be fitted =
between the missile tubes or in the torpedo room. The mess decks (chow =
hall) had about 8 tables and a steam table. 6 tables were for the crew, =
with 2 reserved for the Chiefs. Normally, we did not surface while on =
patrol, but occasionally the powers that be would give us a break give =
us a port visit.

The fast attack I was in, USS Shark SSN-591, was gone from port much =
more my boomer experience, but we were submerged for shorter periods and =
hit more foreign ports. My last bunk assignment was in a small space =
located in the torpedo. One end of the bunk had a lower ceiling than the =
rest, since I shared the space with part of the forward capstan motor. =
The crews mess (mess decks/chow hall) was about the same as on the =
boomers and was a multipurpose space between meals.

The USS Simon Lake AS33, was a submarine (actually any ship that pulled =
along side) tender stationed in the Med. Bunks still about the same size =
in a compartment holding an entire boomer crew in 1 space.

Barracks usually had anywhere from 1 to 4 people assigned depending on =
the base.

Hope this helps a little I have to get ready for work.

Tom Rux


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 06:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Aug 20 05:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <12f.162c539b.2a93319b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020820081059.026e2008@192.168.0.1>

At 01:46 AM 8/20/2002 -0400, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
>  >>>(the vegetarians, anywa--I understand the Hivers had some success in
>  >>>modifying their disease).
>  >    Do the K'kree add animal byproducts in the form of ground meal to
>  >their feed?
>  >Sorta like a K'kree soylent green?
>Do you think this will lead to Mad K'kree Disease?

Just how do you tell the difference between a Mad K'kree and sane one?



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
And, isn't sanity really just a one trick pony anyway? I mean, all you get
is one trick: rational thinking. But when you're good and crazy, ooo hoo
hoo, the sky's the limit! - The Tick  http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 06:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Angus McDonald)
Date: Tue Aug 20 05:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Tech Levelling
Message-ID: <OF8C3761CE.98563091-ONCA256C1B.0013F6C1@dnsalias.com>

To the lists below you can add high-tech catamarans:
http://www.dtic.mil/armylink/news/Oct2001/a20011022hsv-1test.html
http://www.nwdc.navy.mil/HSV/ConceptHSV.asp

>>>
A few years back we also exported enough steel into the USA to have a
whopping big tariff slapped on further imports. We also export information
(read inventions created here then sold off overseas).

Oh yes we also export troops (I read somewhere that more of our combat 
ready
troops are overseas than at home.)

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Stephen Tempest
Sent: Sunday, 18 August 2002 8:31 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Tech Levelling


Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com> writes:

>
>And what _does_ Australia export?  And to where?  I don't see very much 
of
>anything that has 'Made in Australia' on it...
>
Off the top of my head, I'd say wool, mutton, and minerals.  Oh, and
beer.  And daytime soap operas.  And Kylie Minogue.

Having looked it up, I see that I can add beef and wheat to that list,
and that Australia in 1990 exported about $40b from a GNP of $240b
(17%), mostly to Japan (27%) and the US (11%).

Stephen
<<<
---  from  ---
Angus McDonald
www.falkayn.com

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 06:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 20 05:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] GURPS Traveller LEH?  [Or LEW?]
Message-ID: <115c55d1161002.1161002115c55d@us.army.mil>

<<crossposted to JTAS General Discussion board>>

At 09:29:09, Aug 19, 2002, George A. Boyett (<<email address redacted>>) 
wrote:
> I hate to bring this up again, but the LEH is scheduled for release 
> next month.  Is preordering now opened?

When I first read that subject line, I saw it as "GURPS:  Traveller 
LEW," and was surprised to think that SJG had decided to publish a book 
detailing Larsen E. Whipsnade from the TML.... ;-)

"Equal Time for Fred Ramen!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 07:27:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue Aug 20 06:27:08 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020820011937.b439407d736f4a22ad30eb9902397dec.in@keywest.kennett.net>
References: <20020820011937.b439407d736f4a22ad30eb9902397dec.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <m3fzx9lkyl.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng) writes:
> 
> Well, I am not going to support a change in domestic policy that is
> going to fund rebels undermining countries in South America.

I would think that, once legal, it'd fund not much at all.  We're not
talking about products which are difficult to make, after all.  That's
one of the funny things about Prohibition: it makes the prohibited
much more valuable than it'd otherwise be.

I like to use the example of liquor distributors in the first
Prohibition: they were evil, murderous men.  But nowaday they tend to
be family men you'd not be surprised to see in church...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
His troops would follow him anywhere, but only out of curiosity.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 08:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 20 07:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <11c993911c783c.11c783c11c9939@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sunday, August 18, 2002 5:19 am
Subject: Re: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets

> "Peter Scarrott" <peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
> >
> > To expand on someone else's earlier comment (sorry hit 'delete' too
> > fast), the Consulate's main advantage is not having a large Empire
> > on any of it's other borders (ISTR).  Of all the large interstellar
> > governments we know about the Imperium is the only one with more
> > than one major neighbour.
> 
> I've ever assumed that it's just that we view the Far Future from the
> 3I's viewpoint, and that other empires live on the edges of the
> Imperium's neighbours.

One objection to the proposition that the Zhodani Consulate (ZC) has on 
its borders powerful organized states unknown to the 3I immediately 
comes to mind:

Presumably the 3I and ZC maintain diplomatic relations in peacetime.  
Wouldn't the Imperial embassy staff on Zhodane have encountered their 
colleagues from any other powerful (or even relatively minor) organized 
state that bordered the ZC?  Alternately, if a state of war prevented 
said other polities from maintaining diplomatic relations with the ZC, 
wouldn't Imperial diplomats have gotten at least _some_ hint of ongoing 
war?

<<snip>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 08:12:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Tue Aug 20 07:12:04 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E4A@USCHM203>

>John T. Kwon wrote:

>> Quite unlike the US, who puts its aircraft into the desert, 
>> and chops them up for scrap.

>Actually, other federal agencies can purchase planes from the >boneyards, 
>and until the mid to late 70's so could citizens.

On a slightly related note, Jimmy Buffet has a refurbished PBY (large WWII
era seaplane) with a luxuriously furnished interior. Pretty nice way to go
island hopping, if you can afford it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 08:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Tue Aug 20 07:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E4B@USCHM203>

Quite frankly, it is my fondest hope that Major League Baseball goes the way
of the old North American Soccer League (which was a damn shame). In short,
disappears. How any fans could support professional baseball after this
latest nonsense is beyond me. I gave up on the league in '95. I'd rather go
see AAA ball in Newark or Hoboken, or high school games, or even little
league these days.
The only way you'll get me into Shea Stadium again is for a concert.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 08:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Tue Aug 20 07:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] JTAS article comments required please
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFEEAIDGAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

I have just had my first article published on JTAS (Felix) and would ask
anyone who has a JTAS subscription to read it and pass on any comments you
might have.

I have developed a very thick skin so please feel  free to speak your minds,
I need the criticism badly so let rip one and all.

Anyone who hasn't got a JTAS sub yet I would heartily recommend it.

Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.
I need to remember details like that, until we get to know each other
better.  Some men get so nervous if a lady shows up at the restaurant with a
box of explosives. - Florence, www.purrsia.com/Freefall , 7th Dec 2001


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 08:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 20 07:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Names of Tigresses
Message-ID: <12028cd12060a4.12060a412028cd@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Shadowcat <res053z0@gten.net>
Date: Sunday, August 18, 2002 7:32 am
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Names of Tigresses

> I'd at least use the "Grumman Cats"
> Tigercat
> Wildcat
> Bearcat
> Tomcat

Plus Hellcat....

BTW, has anyone used the Abbatoir hellkittens (from George R.R. Martin's 
_Tuf Voyaging_) as an animal encounter in their games?

<<snip>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 08:59:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Colin)
Date: Tue Aug 20 07:59:11 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E4B@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEKIECAA.tml@jtas.org>

My, aren't we self-righteous. I suppose you don't buy things shipped by
truck after the big teamsters strikes of the 70's, and that you refuse to
send your children to school because the NEA sent teachers out on strike in
the 80's, and you refuse to call 911 because of the police and firefighter
"sick-outs" held at various times, that you refuse to fly because pilots and
airline workers have gone on strike, that you refuse to buy clothes that
have a union label, and that you refuse to be protected by the US Military
because their ships and planes and tanks are union made? I'm not attacking
you, just pointing out that this union/management conflict is no different
than any other. Don't be blinded by jealousy over the amounts of money
involved. The principle is the same. For the record, I hate the fact that
unions have been necessary, but it is the appalling mismanagement of human
resources that made it so. Humans do not treat each other humanely unless
there is a balance of power.


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com

Quite frankly, it is my fondest hope that Major League Baseball goes the way
of the old North American Soccer League (which was a damn shame). In short,
disappears. How any fans could support professional baseball after this
latest nonsense is beyond me. I gave up on the league in '95. I'd rather go
see AAA ball in Newark or Hoboken, or high school games, or even little
league these days.
The only way you'll get me into Shea Stadium again is for a concert.


_________________________________
     The Traveller Trader
 http://www.travellertrader.com
"The place to get that wonderful,
  out-of-print Traveller stuff!"



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 09:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Tue Aug 20 08:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <20020820104354.7fc37dd1ee9e4d3781988ac73858c404.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng) writes:
>> 
>> Well, I am not going to support a change in domestic policy that is
>> going to fund rebels undermining countries in South America.
>
>I would think that, once legal, it'd fund not much at all.  We're not
>talking about products which are difficult to make, after all.  That's
>one of the funny things about Prohibition: it makes the prohibited
>much more valuable than it'd otherwise be.

Nice idea, but only an idea.  But drug legalization is not the panacea that
a lot of people think it is, not the least of which "We can lower the crime
rates by getting rid of laws" argument.  True, to a point, but it ignores a
lot in the bargain.

>I like to use the example of liquor distributors in the first
>Prohibition: they were evil, murderous men.  But nowaday they tend to
>be family men you'd not be surprised to see in church...

Okay, you convert the charming people in FARC to such nice fellows and THEN
I will think about supporting drug legalization.

Think of it: the end of Prohibition did not make the Mafia go away, did it?
All it did was to put them in different lines of work.  What makes you think
FARC and the drug cartels are going to stand-up and say "Well, fellas, now
that we are legal businessmen, we are going to be nice, upstanding citizens."

C.T.


"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 09:03:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Tue Aug 20 08:03:04 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <F109XJOhAFUb5aSoInd0000f7a1@hotmail.com>

>Since golf was mentioned, why is it that a golfer needs absolute silence
>to strike a stationary ball in front of him, while a ballplayer is
>expected to hit a ball being thrown past (and sometimes AT) him at 90MPH
>or so while 50,000 spectators scream at the top of their lungs?

LOL!

>ObTrav: Will popular sports in the Traveller universe be more or less
>violent than those we know today?

Captain Jason Wright carries his 10mm pistol with him while golfing for just 
such an occurance of noise.  It is silenced so as not to bother the others 
on the links....

Jason



Andy Mac


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 09:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Aug 20 08:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <005401c24841$368bc940$81000140@k62500>
Message-ID: <20020820151757.14089.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

--- tmr0195@concentric.net wrote:
> I spent 20-years in the USN, 4 subs, 1 sub tender,
> and various barracks. Reading through some of the
> related posts I will try to answer questions on
> accommodations and underway time.
<<<SNIPPAGE>>> 
> crew did the opposite. A standard patrol cycle
> usually had the boat underwater for approximately 60
> days, my longest sustained underway period was 74
> days submerged. Of course the boat did come up to
> periscope depth and extend various masts, snorkel
> normally, and antennas. Most of the junior personnel
> had to hot rack (share the same bunk which is about
> 6'5"x 18" x 24"), which had a hinged bunk pan and
> storage space underneath. Other sleeping

First, my apology to you and the other navy guys on
the list.  I was obviously misinformed regarding
surface time both for ship crew and submariners.

Second, my respect.  It is well deserved given the
descriptions above.  I know it's been said before, but
let me repeat/reiterate.  Thanks to all the current
and ex- military guys.  Probably doesn't get said
enough.

Finally, OB Trav:  How would the attitude toward the
military differ from area to area and world to world. 
Would the folks on an overpopulated vaccuum world
gripe about the excess space afforded to the navy
crews.  How about the navy crews?  Imagin visiting a
world where there was more room in your bunk than in
the hotel "room" you could rent for shore leave.  Ugh.

Paul


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HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 09:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue Aug 20 08:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The Frontier Wars; The other side of the hill
Message-ID: <F218UrUIX373es2r0u1000128c8@hotmail.com>

From: <tmr0195@concentric.net>

     "There is a small error in the following section of the below statement 
in the recent posting: "

     "1. The Mexican government invited North American, primarily Southern 
citizens, settlers into Texas." (snip)

     "2. The Republic of Texas made overtures to the U.S. government which 
were politely rebuffed owing to an unfavorable climate." (snip)


Mr. Rux,

     You are, of course, correct sir.  Given the facts that you politely 
reminded us of, I wouldn't describe my flight of fancy as containing "small 
errors".  Instead, it's chock full of whoppers!
     However, my intention was not to give a thumbnail picture of the 
Mexican-American war, but rather to use that conflict to draw general 
parallels between an known historical event and the fictional Frontier Wars.
     By describing the events leading up to the Mexican-American War from 
the Mexican point of view, I had hoped to goad the List into viewing the 
Frontier Wars from the Zhodani point of view, the "other side of the hill" 
as it were.  Because I was drawing analogies, I "trimmed" the facts to fit 
my theme.  True, I lied, by omission instead of commission, but I lied all 
the same.
     That being said, how did you like my alternate timeline?  Did it make 
you look again at the Frontier Wars?  If you answer yes, that result may 
mitigate my truth bending.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen E. "I'd rather be on Porozlo" Whipsnade

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 09:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue Aug 20 08:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] GURPS Traveller LEH? [Or LEW?]
Message-ID: <F188zk6WHKOM9pbGTr700009dfd@hotmail.com>

From: john.groth@us.army.mil

     "When I first read that subject line, I saw it as "GURPS:  Traveller 
LEW," and was surprised to think that SJG had decided to publish a book 
detailing Larsen E. Whipsnade from the TML.... ;-) "


Mr. Groth,

     The "G:T LEW" publication is little more than a mish-mash of old wanted 
posters, mugshots, and security camera stills.  Nothing in it is really new 
and most of the materials can be found and copied at any corner Imperial 
X-Post Office.
     AFAIK, the only new item in the book is a series of stills showing the 
Rotound Reprobate washing out a pair of socks and stealing change from the 
Tivoli Fountains on Terra.

     "Equal Time for Fred Ramen!"

     The talented Mr. Ramen has submitted the proofs for his "Nasa Sutra 
5700" publication.  FWIW, Dorothii Lemuur figures prominently in the work.  
Mr. Ramen also has a Vilani cookbook in the works, several screenplays 
optioned to the MYMINES, Ltd. media division, an on-going set of memoirs, 
and, of course, the wildly popular juvenile detective series 
"Shgapgunshusgis Dru".
     All of these items can be purchased at Im-Azon.com.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 09:50:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Aug 20 08:50:10 2002
Subject: Vulcan bits - was RE: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly
 of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F169B@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

I used to live <15 miles away from it :)  Of course, that was something like 10 years ago.  Had I only known back then ;)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thomas Barnes [mailto:twb3@charter.net]
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 8:32 PM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: RE: Vulcan bits - was RE: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the
> belly of the beast (long)
> 
> 
> There is a Vulcan on display at the Castle Air Museum near Merced, CA.
> Quite a striking looking airplane.  
> 
> I wonder how large a donation would motivate them to let you make a
> casting of the stick grip?
> 
> TWB
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com [mailto:tml-
> > admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of DeGraff, Jesse
> > Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 11:14 AM
> > To: 'tml@travellercentral.com'
> > Subject: Vulcan bits - was RE: [TML] USS North Carolina: in 
> the belly
> of
> > the beast (long)
> > 
> > > As I mentioned before, in the UK it's possible to buy a lot
> > > of interesting "out of date" items.  If the list could put
> > > the money together, and get a UK buyer, we could, say,
> > > purchase a Vulcan bomber.
> > 
> > If we DO purchase a Vulcan bomber (or anyone on the list 
> has one ;) I
> need
> > to pour a silicone mold of the control stick.  It was used 
> in the film
> > "Aliens", and I could easily sell copies to prop collectors :D
> > 
> > Jesse
> > _______________________________________________
> > TML mailing list
> > TML@travellercentral.com
> > http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 09:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Aug 20 08:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F169C@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

I forgot about "flag country".  Whoops :)
Jesse

<snip Terry's living quarters breakdown>

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 09:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Aug 20 08:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Solomani influences
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F169D@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

When I went to Dragon*Con last year, my roomate & I were walking down =
the street from our hotel to the conference hotel when we noticed that =
the manhole covers in Atlanta look EXACTLY like the Sol symbol :)  I'll =
try and remember to post a pic when I get home tonight.

Jesse

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tod Glenn [mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com]
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 9:11 PM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Solomani influences
>=20
>=20
> on 8/19/02 7:41 PM, Mark Urbin at urbin@bigfoot.com wrote:
>=20
> > Seeing=20
> http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/solcourier.htm
> > reminded of my trip to the Boston Science Museum yesterday.
> > That's where I saw the prototype autodoc on display.
> >=20
> > One of the other exhibits flashes a very bright image in=20
> your eyes, for
> > experiments with after images.
> >=20
> > The image burned into your brain...the Solomani cross in=20
> circle as shown on
> > the ship Jesse designed...
> >=20
>=20
> When we went on vacation this summer, we only stayed in=20
> SolSec approved
> hotels.
>=20
> see: http://solsec.org/media/sol_hotel.jpg
>=20
> Tod
>=20
> --
> Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can=20
> find a rock.=A0
> --=20
> Tod L Glenn
> webmaster@travellercentral.com
> http://www.travellercentral.com
> http://www.spinwardmarches.com
> http://www.solsec.org
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>=20

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 09:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Aug 20 08:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEKIECAA.tml@jtas.org>
Message-ID: <20020820155541.61823.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Colin <tml@jtas.org> wrote:
<<Snippage: Examples of union/management troubles>
> involved. The principle is the same. For the record,
> I hate the fact that
> unions have been necessary, but it is the appalling
> mismanagement of human
> resources that made it so. Humans do not treat each
> other humanely unless
> there is a balance of power.

While I have not given up on baseball, and refuse to
let my enjoyment of the game be dictated by pampered
millionaires.  I do understand the point that resulted
in this reply.  I don't think you can say that the
Baseball strike, that hopefully will not come, is an
example of humans treating inhumanely.  From what I
gather (hey, its a game, if I want politics I go to
Washington).  Anyway, from what I gather, the biggest
debate is over how much luxury tax will be charged. 
Bleah.  Shut up, collect your $300,000 per year (if it
is your first year) and play ball!

BTW, I do enjoy the AA games here in Greenville.

ObTrav:  How are interstellar strikes handled?  Could
the strike in the Marches be just beginning when the
disputes are already settled as far away as Vland or
Captial?  How would an interstellar Union function?

Paul (A fan of the game, not necessarily the players)




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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 10:06:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue Aug 20 09:06:04 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020820104354.7fc37dd1ee9e4d3781988ac73858c404.in@keywest.kennett.net>
References: <20020820104354.7fc37dd1ee9e4d3781988ac73858c404.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <m3hehp7bxh.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng) writes:
> 
> > I like to use the example of liquor distributors in the first
> > Prohibition: they were evil, murderous men.  But nowaday they tend
> > to be family men you'd not be surprised to see in church...
> 
> Think of it: the end of Prohibition did not make the Mafia go away,
> did it?  All it did was to put them in different lines of work.
> What makes you think FARC and the drug cartels are going to stand-up
> and say "Well, fellas, now that we are legal businessmen, we are
> going to be nice, upstanding citizens."

Who cares about them?  Crime cannot compete with legitimate business
(that's why the Mafia left alcohol distribution and, more recently,
Vegas gambling).  If marijuana, cocaine, LSD, methamphetamine, opium
&c. were legitimate businesses, those involved in them would be no
more objectionable that a liquor distributor is these days.

Sure, there's a space of time when said nasty types are involved in
the legal side of things.  I'm certain that for a few years after the
elimination of the Ignoble Experiment the mob was still involved in
alcohol production and distribution.

ObTrav: This is why the Imperium, IMTU anyway, doesn't prohibit much.
It gives rebels an easy way to make money, it causes more crime than
it prevents and it's and affront to sense.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
We will print no letters to the editor.  We will give no space to
opposing points of view.  They are wrong.  The Underground Grammarian is
at war and will give the enemy nothing but battle.
                     --The Underground Grammarian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 10:08:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Aug 20 09:08:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <3D616860.70000@usisp.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029859559.8751.ajackson@ping>

richard honeycutt writes:

>     How is that in violation of canon? If it is as you suggest, then why 
> aren't all worlds at
> Imperial Tech?

Good question.  Why _aren't_ almost all worlds at Imperial tech?

IMTU 'TL' basically indicates the average wealth of the population, and only
indicates what's actually available to the degree that lower-tech goods are
cheaper than higher-tech goods.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 10:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Tue Aug 20 09:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E55@USCHM203>

"Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance" wrote: 

>I'm still convinced that Abba constituted some form of violation of the 
>Geneva conventions.

The Swedish government maintains that this was merely in retaliation for
Leif Garrett.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 09:46:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 1 May 101 14:38:57 US/Central
Subject: [TML] The Best of the TML
Message-ID: <200105012050.f41KoX802336@premier1.premier.net>

> Now that the TML has a website (http://tml.travellercentral.com), I suggest
> we pull out the best postings on the list for a 'best of the TML' section of
> the website.  We need to create some mechanism for selecting "best ofs".
> Any suggestions?
> 
> The recent article on "Smart Fabrics" strikes me as a good candidate for the
> "Best Ofs".
> 
> What is the list members' opinion.

I suggest that there should be several categories of "Best of the TML" posts.  
Categories might include Toys (gearhead designs/ideas), Societies, 
Worldbuilding, Links, and Chrome (miscellaneous nifty stuff, such as Smart 
Fabrics).

Unfortunately, I have no idea how to implement an equitable system for 
_choosing_ "BotT"
posts.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 09:46:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Myers)
Date: Tue Aug 20 10:07:06 2002
Subject: [TML] sup.12 request [munchkin rant]
In-Reply-To: <MNEIJOCDFNHAIPMCMHEKEENICAAA.mickscan@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <200107020959.CAA09049@smtpout.mac.com>

I have the original, it's a corker. :-) The included scenario is a real 
example of how to deal with Big Secrets without upsetting the balance of 
power. It's the anti-SOTA (which I love as well, strangely).

- Rob.

On Sunday, July 1, 2001, at 11:07  am, Michael Scanlon wrote:

>
> I'm looking forward to the Alien Supplements to be out, which is looking
> like to be some time yet though. In particular I'm after the Darrian
> Supplement

--
JIEX - http://www.robmyers.org/jiex
Quarterly 2300AD Journal.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 09:46:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 101 17:28:59 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Filk of Veracruz
Message-ID: <200107262340.f6QNeYj00180@premier1.premier.net>

> What and whose melody is this song sung to?

The original song is Warren Zevon's "Vera Cruz," which can be found on the 
album "Excitable Boy."  It deals with the punitive expedition against Pancho 
Villa in (IIRC) 1916.

Tres cool stuff (both the original and Doug's filk).



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 09:46:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 101 18:35:33 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Traveller IRC
Message-ID: <200109120047.f8C0lPw19555@premier1.premier.net>

Yes mr. Zeitlin works in NCP as a system op.  He also lives outside the city 
the last time I heared.  Though I have not been on IRC in a bit.  For the rest 
of you he is the one who runs Free Traveller website.  

Tim Reynolds
aka Grayman


>

 From: "Swordy" <swordworlder@earthlink.net>
> 
>      "anxiously awaiting word from Jeff Zeitlin (of Freelance Traveller) who 
> works for the NYC police dept. :("
> 
> 
>      Has anyone gotten a PING from Mr. Zeitlin?  Mr. Ramen has checked in, 
> fortunately.  There are reports of "massive" casulties among NYPD and FDNY 
> personnel.
>      Doesn't he work in some sort of computer capacity and not a uniformed 
> one?
> 
> 
>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
> 
> 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 09:46:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 101 13:35:58 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Re: Donating Blood
Message-ID: <200109121947.f8CJlmw00196@premier1.premier.net>

Hi all

I got this from an archiveing professor just now.
Its a list of "surivors" of the attack.  I have looked at
it and it has a few problems.  
These are the result of it being open to the 
so there are joke entries here and there.
But if it helps someone get more information on their love ones
it works for me.

http://www.ny.com/wtclist.html

Tim Reynolds




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 09:46:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 101 16:42:56 US/Central
Subject: [TML] PCs in the Big Picture
Message-ID: <200109172254.f8HMspw20018@premier1.premier.net>

> Ladies and Gentlemen,
> 
>      The horrific events of last Tuesday produced an odd tangent in my 
> thinking, even odd for a Whipsnade.
>      Just how involved are the PCs in your campaigns involved in the "Big 
> Picture"?
>      Using 911 as an example, would your PCs be simple passengers on one of 
> the hijacked flights or a group tracking the hijackers prior to the act or a 
> group after Bin Laden (IF he's behind this) himself?

I do not know if I would use the terms high powered games or lower power games 
when talking about this subject, Maybe High Politics/Low Politics would be 
better.  To me high power games are those where the PCs own 1000 ton patrol 
cruiser and have enough Power Armor to equip a company of mercs.

In either case, I run a mix game trying to do the classic Onion peel thing.  
Players love to know that they saved the Universe even if no else will ever 
know.  I mean this is role playing not your adverage day at work where you have 
to argue that the reason you did not pay your ship(car) payment on time was 
that the ship(car) fuel cost to much.  

Tim Reynolds




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 09:46:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 101 16:35:59 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Re: Red Storm Rising
Message-ID: <200109172247.f8HMltw19476@premier1.premier.net>


> > 
> > Also, IIRC, the critical shortage of oil in the USSR required that the oil
> > fields be captured quickly and _intact_, and the extreme measure of 
attacking
> > NATO was seen as enabling that goal.
> 
> Well that's one of the things that seemed daft. Going to war on two different 
> fronts on only one's existing oil stocks has to be twise a silly as going to 
> war on only one. Besides I never could buy that so much of the Soviet 
> porduction could be destroyed in one hit that this sort of thing would 
> necessary.
> 
> 

Ask the Germans about starting a war with one front just to deal with the 
orginal war in the first place.  Or even the Japan in WWII.  Based on these and 
probably alot of other cases I do not know Red Storm Rising is possible when 
looking at the Political Military side of things and not just either one by its 
self.  


Tim Reynolds



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 09:46:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 101 09:39:46 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Democracy?  Or not?
Message-ID: <200109191551.f8JFpfw02966@premier1.premier.net>


To be honest I am not sure if I am insulted by this or not.  It&#8217;s bad when 
after the 2000 elections everyone here said, thank god it was Florida and not 
us.

Go LSU Tigers.

OT:
I mean every time I build a third world nation/world or think of dirty politics 
I model it off of Louisiana.  Our leaders personalities make for great NPC 
personalities that you just love to hate.  We have bigots, crooks, con men, and 
a police force that was so corrupt at one time that FBI had to take over 
running New Orleans. The patron system is also alive and kicking down here. On 
other hand we actually work and party hard so there is a lot of fun.

So does anyone else use really leaders to models NPC?  Also I think the most 
corrupted systems would also be the most exciting systems?

Tim

> > Sorry, I couldn't let that go.  Taiwan is no more a republic than, say, 
> Louisiana under Huey Long.  Unless your definition of a republic includes 
> vote-buying, legislation by brute force, mafia control of large parts of 
> the government and very low accountability to the people.  Those things are 
> natural, I think, but far from a necessary part of a republic, and 
> certainly not unavoidable in the amounts that they are present here.  I 
> also don't think Taiwan is doomed to this kind of existence forever, but 
> certainly for a while at least.  Democratic values take a long time to 
> foster and mature, and Taiwan has only been a democracy for about 15 
> years.  Confucianism will take quite a while to dismantle.
> 
> -- Rachel
> 
> 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 09:46:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 101 13:07:26 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Spinward Marches Statistics
Message-ID: <200110021919.f92JJUX21034@premier1.premier.net>

This is cool bit of data.  my next question is what system are they in and who 
wants to draw up the stratgic plans to take them ?

> Hello Folks,
>   After taking a hard look at how many planets in the Spinward Marches have
> the ability to build TL15 (GURPS TRAVELLER TL12) ships, I got to wondering
> about how the Imperium would build its fleets.  The following information
> was gleaned from a GURPS TRAVELLER database.  The translation between the
> GURPS rules and the CT rules is that TL 9 ships include Traveller TL's
> 9,10, and 11 ships.  TL 10 ships include Traveller TL's 12 and 13.  TL 11
> ships include Traveller TL 14, and TL 12 equals Traveller TL 15.  The only
> star ports I included in checking via the database, were Class V (or
> Traveller Class A starports).  Class IV or Traveller class B starports of
> course, can build Battle riders and fighters.
> 
> These are the statistics of the Spinward Marches:
> 
> Starports able to build Jump 1 & 2 ships:		17	
	531,046,053 dTons/year
> Starports able to build Jump 3 & 4 Ships:		11	
	115,450,926 dTons/year
> Starports able to build Jump 5 Ships:		 1		 52,000,000 
dTons/year
> Starports able to build Jump 6 Ships:		 5		676,520,000 
dTons/year
> 
> These values are approximations of the TCS tonnages.  I took the population
> values (without including the population modifier, as this is not in my
> database right now) and subtracted 3 from them, and raising that to the
> 10th power.  Example: a population 9 world would result in a starport that
> could build 10^(9-3) or 1,000,000 dTons.  This is based on the formula that
> read something to the effect of P x pop/1000.  Ignoring P, it works out to
> Pop/1000, or 10^(pop-3).
> 
>        Hal
> 
> 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 09:46:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 101 13:10:29 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Question/Face to go by
Message-ID: <200110021922.f92JMXX21250@premier1.premier.net>

> At 05:10 PM 10/01/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >David Hackworth's mailing list reprinted a piece from the Sunday Times
> >concerning conditions in Afganistan.
> >
> >Anyone want to see it?
> 
> OK, somebody hold me back.  Please.
> 
> David Hackworth used to be a soldier.  In fact, at one time, he was held
> the distinction of being the most-decorated soldier in the Army.  Then he
> lost his nerve.  He's spent the last thirty years knocking down the force
> he left behind, usually without any real information.

Just so I am picturing this guy right is he the older guy with the gray crew 
cute.  I think he was Col in the Army.  I just can not put a name with a face.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 09:46:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 101 14:20:28 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Enough!
Message-ID: <200110152032.f9FKWfg23633@premier1.premier.net>

Hey Doug not to question the masters or anything but......


> >What makes this the first psionic wave?  The Universe is know to 
> >work in some cylces so maybe this is the second or the one 
> >thousand wve to come from the center.  Could it be that the wave 
> >had something to do with Grandfather's abilities.  Does this mean 
> >that there could actually be more then one grandfather around.  
> >Going on this how many waves, travelling at light speed,  could 
> >there have been if the galaxy is something like 4 billion years old?
> 
> Perhaps it is a regular event, every 300,000 years or so.  This would time
> the last wave with the Ancient's Final War.


I do not have a timeline handy, but wasnt this war only 10,000 years ago?
Now if the war was 300,000 years ago, and the current wave occures simo with 
the destruction of the 3rd Imperium we have some cause and effects going on.
Some how this brings a Star Treck plot thing to mind : )  




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 09:46:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 101 13:55:32 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Re: Magnetic tank armor
Message-ID: <200110162007.f9GK7kg02225@premier1.premier.net>

A question was asked

> >   BTW, does anyone have any estimates on how long the USACE would
> need to upgrade facilities to execute sealifts of armor brigades
> to Afghanistan in the current unpleasantness? :>

I do not know the exact timeing but I do know it will be shorter then the Gulf 
War's rough 6 month execuation time.  This is the results of several 
congressional and executive studies of the whole process and the shock at the 
amount of time it took to carry out the G.W.'s sealift.  I think we need to 
keep one thing in mind Afganistan is landlocked and I do not see US tanks 
rolling through Pakastain to get there.  

So this brings into airlift operations and the deploying of the Kittyhawk as a 
floating airlift base.  When you talk about medium armor I think it should be 
designd for airlift not sealift operations.  Nothing like having 2-3 medium 
tanks dropping out the back of a C-5 on top of the enemies position supported 
by a swarm of gunships and strike aircraft.  

Hmm OT  

I dont have any Space lift operations are covered pretty good




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 09:46:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 101 15:21:48 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Enough!
Message-ID: <200110162134.f9GLY2g07994@premier1.premier.net>

> > On 10/15/01 at 01:51 PM,  Mole <mole@solsec.org> said:
> > 
> >> Ummm... I keep getting these posts dated from 1940
> > 
> >> I think someone needs to check their date and time settings?
> > 
> > I suspect Tim is using a Y2K non-compliant email client...or we just have a
> > real timemachine going on. <g>
> > 
> > Eris
> 
> 
> If there were a time machine I'm sure it would be in the hands of those best
> capable of using it...Citizen...Have you spoken with your local monitor
> lately?
> 
At this time it would not be prudent for me to confirm or deny my possession of 
a time machine.  

Tim





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 09:46:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 101 16:08:12 US/Central
Subject: [TML] Re: Magnetic tank armor
Message-ID: <200110182220.f9IMKQg03666@premier1.premier.net>

Hi everyone

> ....
> >So this brings into airlift operations and the deploying of the Kittyhawk as 
a floating airlift base.  

Ok though you might be able to deploy C130s from the Kittyhawk(remember it deck 
is bigger then a WWII carrier)  I was not referring to fix wing aircraft but to 
helicopter airlift.  However, FYI the DOD has looked into semi fixed naval 
vessels about the size of 3 aircraft carriers, that could launch a C17, and 
have like a pre-positioned Marine force.  When you realize that the current 
Assistant Secretary of State is one of the people arguing for such an idea then 
you see why the Kittyhawk is being deployed this way.  


>When you talk about medium armor I think it should be 


As far as this goes I am talking about near the positions with armor cable of 
fighting in non WWIII conditions for limited operations.  Also I was picturing 
in the future.  I was pointing out that airlifts if you can get the right combo 
of factors working is better then sealift, because it is faster.

OT

Maybe we can have a design contest to see who can develop the best assault 
units. This would use LBB 4 and GURPS Ground Forces



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 09:46:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 101 14:38:22 US/Central
Subject: [TML] You know you're an old Traveller when...
Message-ID: <200111052150.fA5Long20375@premier1.premier.net>


> >It then gets worse when they ask "When was this adventure written?", you
> check and 
> >reply 1981 to which they both respond "I wasn't even born then!"
> 
> My new secondary partner wasn't born when Traveller came out!  (Secondary
> partner: polyamory term for some you have a relationship with other than
> your primary.  Read your Heinlein.)
>

How about when you have characters "older" then some of the players in your 
group.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 00:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jul 31 23:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <a6.29f91dee.2a7a2a7a@aol.com>

 >> Fighter crews, sent out in the manner that the original post
 >> specified, will know otherwise--that there's little chance they as
 >> individuals will make any difference at all, and that they're almost
 >> certainly going to die uselessly.
 >
 >You keep saying that, but the original post did not.  It stated that
 >100 fighters for 1 capital ship may be worth it.  What it _didn't_
 >state was how large the attacking force of fighters is.  Sure, it
 >could be 100--but it could also be 1,000.

Always appreciate having my memory challenged.  The original post from packet 
#832 was as follows:

>For HG style fights, I added a "visual range" range band.  
>You have to spend at least one turn at short range before 
>closing to visual (essentially, you have to win initiative 
>twice).  At visual range, weapons automatically hit without a 
>roll.  Sand becomes a weapon similar to a plasma gun at 
>visual.  Note that if there are more fighters attacking than 
>there are defensive batteries at visual range, something is 
>going to get through.  So I added a single autocritical 
>regardless of armor or ship size for any nuclear weapons that 
>get through.  And to make that interesting, I set a limit as 
>to how many warheads a damper can try and stop - one per 
>factor.
>
>Suddenly, the small, cheap fighter with a nuclear missile and 
>a laser, being flown by a human with a mediocre computer 
>becomes a possibility in navies that are willing to put up 
>with the losses - a few hundred fighter pilots in trade for a 
>major capital ship.

This tactic is presented not as a desperation move, but an ordinary one to be 
implemented if said navy can put up with it.  To which I responded that no 
fighter pilot community would tolerate it.  Even if the attacking squadron is 
originally 1000, after two capital ships they'll be combat ineffective using 
this tactic, and there will be NO volunteers to replace them until the tactic 
is discarded.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 00:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jul 31 23:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <e6.2be0ca41.2a7a3051@aol.com>

 >When I was stationed at Ft. Campbell, we had numerous 
 >nighttime helicopter accidents, usually involving more than 
 >one helicopter at once, and usually killing the passengers 
 >(we infantrymen) in decidedly horrific fashion.  I remember 
 >taking someone's entrails out of a tree.  But we didn't stop 
 >riding in helicopters, nor did we have mutinous discussions 
 >about how we would stop riding until they stopped flying 
 >between the trees at night.

You would have if 90 out of 100 crashed between breakfast and lunch.

Look, I appreciate what you're saying, and I understand the drive to climb 
that ladder, and I understand service to country.  But there is a big 
difference between what you are saying and what was implied in the original 
post.  People take up being paratroops or rangers even though they know the 
job is potentially hazardous because they know it is not always and forever 
hazardous.  These same people would NOT take up such a job if they were told, 
"Each and every time we send you out the vast majority of you are not coming 
back."  Who would lead such people?  Who would train them?  There would be no 
survivors left to do so.  I'll say again regarding the original post:  any 
pack of pilots that would volunteer to die by the hundreds to kill one 
capital ship as a regular ordinary tactic will all be at level 0.  There will 
be no experienced person to train or lead them.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 00:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jul 31 23:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <19e.638001c.2a7a328e@aol.com>

 >Just turning to the first page of world listings in GT:Rim of Fire, I
 >see that Darrukesh has 8.2 billion sophonts.  Note that a capital ship
 >can in theory do quite a handy job on a planet's surface, if desired.
 >Now, as Grand Admiral of the Darrukesh fleet, would you expend
 >1.22e-6% of your world's population to prevent that from occuring?

You are discussing survival situations.  The original post concerned an 
ordinary standard tactic to be employed every time "if the navy can tolerate 
the losses".
They won't.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 00:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jul 31 23:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <ac.2b2232c0.2a7a3323@aol.com>

 >>tcs neglects the most important fleet construction factor of all.
 >>go back to tcs and re-read the rules.
 >
 >Tell you what - you go _play_ some hg/tcs, then come back and
 >talk about people reading tcs.

Sure.  I'll play you -- if you can handle it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 00:48:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jul 31 23:48:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <27.2b4e7fcb.2a7a338a@aol.com>

 >Rock, Paper, Scissors.  Your calculations don't go far enough.

Could be.  Let's find out.  Show me.  Can you handle it?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 00:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jul 31 23:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <12e.1530f6bf.2a7a34a4@aol.com>

 >>by the way, just what is orbital bombardment and why does
 >>it require some special ship?
 >
 >It may require less (or different) capability than that
 >required to stand against a major capital ship.  If I can
 >make two or three ships minimally suited to orbital
 >fire-support missions for every one of your jack-of-all
 >trades dreadnaughts, then I can run two or three times as
 >many ground assault operations at the same time as you can.

Tonnages!  I want tonnages!  And I want to know every reason why you put in 
what you did and left out what you did.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 00:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Jul 31 23:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <196.abe40d6.2a7a3514@aol.com>

 >>  between nukes and meson guns, what else could anyone want?
 >
 >They might want more choices besides Dreadnaughts.

Show me your choices.  I'd love to see 'em.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 01:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 00:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <12d.1506ac4f.2a7a379b@aol.com>

 >>there is one other defense you're forgetting. (against meson guns)
 >
 >Agility?  It reduces hits, doesn't block damage from them.
 >Or are you talking about something from the "house
 >rules" you've been talking from all along, instead of
 >the rules everyone else has been using?

Neither, actually.  Oh, and I would really like to hear your specific 
objections to each specific house rule.  I really do want to hear from your 
superior wisdom.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 01:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 00:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <f3.1ed9f0cb.2a7a396a@aol.com>

 >> >Your super-dreadnaught is one "Fuel Tanks Shattered"
 >> >hit away from being dead in space, no matter how buff
 >> >you make it - and there are Cruisers (or packs
 >> >of them) that can deal such damage to it.
 >>
 >>wow.
 >
 >Yes, wow.  High-tech societies should be very, very careful
 >about their reasons for getting mad enough to smack major
 >fleet elements into each other.  Even the winner is probably
 >going to bleed white.

Unreserved agreement here.  Oh wise teacher, I seek experience, unworthy as I 
am.  My poor virgin Spinward Marches Colonial Fleet awaits.  Battle me!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 01:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 00:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <9a.295bcf54.2a7a3abb@aol.com>

 >the best, and I mean the best, adventures are those that 
 >are "two party" adventures - one party of players against 
 >another.  The referee can never buy or write a one-party 
 >adventure that is as tense, hilarious, or as emotional as 
 >a "two party".
 >
 >Especially if the people in both parties know each other as 
 >gamers.  The referee doesn't have to do all of the thinking 
 >for one side anymore.

(mental eyes opening wide as possibilities come into view)  Now that _is_ a 
good idea.  Has this been around for a while and I've missed it, or is it 
something your group came up with?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 01:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 00:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Acceptable losses
Message-ID: <10d.15a5705f.2a7a3b9c@aol.com>

 >Some people I know do *not* believe the casualty figures from 
 >WW I.  They insist that it's simply not possible.

England had the custom of entire villages and towns volunteering to form one 
entire unit, which would fight together.  Frequently they were all gunned 
down together, and an entire village or town would lose most of its young men 
all at once.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 01:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 00:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <8d.1bfa1383.2a7a4253@aol.com>

 >The point of my video game comment was to illustrate that it's not
 >unrealistic that fighter pilot skills might conceivably be learned from
 >games.  I still believe that to be the case; you've certainly not
 >demonstrated otherwise.

I can't.  You lack the experience I might appeal to to do so.  For that 
matter, so do I -- I'm not a pilot.  But I've seen what works and what 
doesn't in a military.  But you haven't even seen that.

Try contacting a real fighter pilot sometime.  Ask him if fighter pilot 
skills might be learned from sophisitcated games.  Ask your local recruiter 
-- maybe he has a pilot come in once in a while to help him recruit.  Or 
heck, you could even call a nearby AFB or naval base, contact the liaison, 
and ask to speak to a pilot for ten minutes or so.  But it would be better if 
you can look him in the eye as he talks to you.

 >> He will shuck and jive, pretend equipment failures, or run.  He most
 >> certainly won't volunteer for that sort of duty again.
 >
 >That's a pretty low opinion of a fellow officer

A fellow officer, he says!  They wouldn't be officers, they'd be cannon 
fodder.  And they'd know it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 01:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith Mormon minion of Arioch)
Date: Thu Aug  1 00:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <f3.1ed9f0cb.2a7a396a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000501c2392c$7b7b0800$6f7ba8c0@kenneith93j41k>

That is the whole argument of detant, that the cost would be too high if
both sides went to war.
ken

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comics
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you
http://www.geocities.com/J_Elric_Smith/Index.html
----- Original Message -----
From: <Flykiller@aol.com>
> Unreserved agreement here.  Oh wise teacher, I seek experience, unworthy
as I
> am.  My poor virgin Spinward Marches Colonial Fleet awaits.  Battle me!
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 01:56:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 00:56:27 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <bf.241eecb7.2a7a4368@aol.com>

 >>asking hundreds of them at a time to give up their lives all 
 >>at once, just to make a tactic work, in one segment of a 
 >>single battle, is not an insignificant outlay for THEM.  
 >>(push button) "go do this, guys."  (lights 
 >>flash) "ok."  it doesn't work that way.
 > 
 >See the battle of Midway.  The low level torpedo attack 
 >planes that sacrificed themselves to Japanese anti-aircraft 
 >fire so that the dive bombers would have a chance.

Yes, with a huge Japanese fleet threatening their homeland and only them 
standing between the yellow peril and their families.  It was not, however, a 
standard tactic, employed "because they'll tolerate it".

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 02:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 01:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <43.f41b3de.2a7a45aa@aol.com>

 >HMS Glow-worm ramming the Admiral Hipper comes to mind. The destroyer's 
 >mass
 >was literally the only thing that might hurt the cruiser, and if she wasn't
 >hurt then the convoy would be massacred. Her skipper knew his ship would
 >sink; he knew many (but probably not all) of his crew would die. But the
 >decision was made in the face of the enemy, for a clear goal - to save
 >hundreds of helpless merchant seamen. Would the crew have accepted an
 >Admiralty policy of "we're not giving you torpedoes. You're to close and
 >ram, then sink"? In desperate times, some people actually would. But, say,
 >in 1934? Nope.

Thanks.  I was beginning to think I was the only one here who thought this 
way.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 02:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Aug  1 01:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Ring
References: <20020801000225.15828.154.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D48ED45.AD92306F@earthlink.net>

Glenn M. Goffin reminded us:
> 
> From: "Mosaic Tapestry" <n2sami@attbi.com>
> To: "Traveller Mailing List" <tml@travellercentral.com>
> Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 23:10:18 -0700
> Organization: often equals Disorgainization
> Subject: [TML] Traveller Ring
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> This is the semi-occasional irregular announcement of the existence
> of
> the Traveller Ring. Available at:
> 
> http://www.ringsurf.com/netring?ring=traveller;action=info


Yessss, we wantss our preciousss! Must have preciousss!

Oh.

Sorry, wrong ring.

David S.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 02:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 01:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] [OT] comic book universe battles
Message-ID: <129.1523d6e2.2a7a48bb@aol.com>

 >> Actually, when I watched the movie last year in one of my film classes
 >> ("Film Genres 160: Science-Fiction Cinema"), I realized that it can be 
read
 >> as an argument _against_ the politics of Heinlein's books. Since the book
 >> seems to say, in effect, "A military dictatorship isn't necessarily that
 >> bad!",
 >
 >It seems to say that to some people. The rest of us sit there wondering
 >if they read the same book we did.

I read the book and saw the movie, and I didn't hear anything for or against 
the portrayed government type in either one.  They just portrayed it, and 
left it at that.  I think that evaluations of what the book and movie were 
trying to say are simply reflections of the viewers' own judgements, like an 
inkblot test.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 02:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 01:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
Message-ID: <cf.1abcc5f7.2a7a49d6@aol.com>

 >In Washington, D.C., the homicide department is in complete 
 >shambles.  I sometimes wonder if the powers that be intend 
 >for it to be so.  Cases are lost, forgotten, misplaced...

The department reflects the community that it polices.

You are aware of what Cincinatti is going through now?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 02:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 01:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Acceptable losses
Message-ID: <d5.1b14d150.2a7a5048@aol.com>

 >Great reply. But I think you ignored one area.

Only one?  I did better than I thought!

>While a lot of credit is given to soldiers fighting for some greater, nobler
>idea, studies have repeatedly pointed to the formation of small, tightly
>knit groups as the key to successful armies.  Men rarely risk death and
>dismemberment for higher ideals.

Yeah, I keep hearing this.  I believe it, but I can't see it.  I'm one of 
those who looks to the noble idea.  I know the other tribal/herd thing is out 
there, and I know what it is and how it works, but it's a complete blank spot 
to me personally.

>Many scholars have pointed to the effectiveness of veteran troops over green
>one by observing that these small unit bonds are much stronger between men
>who have shared the rigors of war, and it is that which makes them more
>effective and willing to go the 'extra mile'

I read somewhere that during the War Between the States the Northern armies 
would place new recruits in entirely new brigades, which made them unreliable 
at first, while the Southern armies would install their new recruits in 
established armies, which steadied their new recruits greatly.

Thanks.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 03:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Thu Aug  1 02:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] John Strain where have you gone?
In-Reply-To: <m3bs8ngokq.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPCELCELAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Hi John,

are you still here? The emails I sent to you regarding the graphics you want
to use have been bouncing. Something about invalid return address.

Could you try sending me another email

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 03:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 02:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Website Update
Message-ID: <b0.2a4c8aff.2a7a55c1@aol.com>

 Which works better for you?

personally I prefer having all the data next to the map, rather than having 
the map expand away from it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 03:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 02:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <158.11c679eb.2a7a5fd1@aol.com>

 >> too, in a capital ship only the bridge crew has any
 >> view of the slaughter taking place, and the captain 
 >>(assumedly an experienced and dedicated older 
 >> man) only has to control himself and them (they also
 >> being assumedly experienced and dedicated older 
 >> men).  
 >
 >Wrong, wrong, wrong.

echo.

>If half your friends get sucked
>out into space you know there screwed. Sure you might
>think only your section is being hit, but you are
>probably smarter than that.

well, usually by that time the ship is fried anyway.  mutiny all you want -- 
no-one will notice anymore.

>And whats with the all
>male bridge crew?

What's the matter?  You don't like guys?

>Today many western navies are
>getting more female sailors

Yeah, I've seen 'em.  True story:  two female reservists on the gallery deck, 
looking lost and bored and a little nervous.  One of 'em suddenly brightens, 
turns to the other and says, "Let's go to the ship's mall!"  The other lights 
up with happiness and they head for the ladder down to the store.  It was 
almost more than I could take.

>and Trav is supposed to
>be a non-sexist universe!

Traveller is fantasy.

>All he has to do is launch his missiles and run! He is
>only one ship of many. The odds are probably in favor
>of him surviving. It wasn't in the original post that
>casualties among the fighters has high.

Yes it was.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 03:57:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug  1 02:57:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <196.abe40d6.2a7a3514@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002601c23943$4e0f1ac0$6e09bd50@martinjd>

>  >They might want more choices besides Dreadnaughts.
>
> Show me your choices.  I'd love to see 'em.

Low-end ships so you can do all your jobs within your budget maybe? Patrol
ships and tankers and whatever you plan to escort the talkers with. The USN,
for example, has other ships than carriers or attack subs (whichever you
consider to be the capital ship). Most navies have some high-end combat
ships and low-end workhorses.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 04:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug  1 03:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <8d.1bfa1383.2a7a4253@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003b01c23943$a8f1b4c0$6e09bd50@martinjd>



> >The point of my video game comment was to illustrate that it's not
>  >unrealistic that fighter pilot skills might conceivably be learned from
>  >games.  I still believe that to be the case; you've certainly not
>  >demonstrated otherwise.
>
> I can't.  You lack the experience I might appeal to to do so.  For that
> matter, so do I -- I'm not a pilot.  But I've seen what works and what
> doesn't in a military.  But you haven't even seen that.

I play Tekken against my training partner quite a lot. But you know? We get
out fighting skills from hitting one another for real. Pushing buttons just
doesn't give the feedback. Or the blood and snot.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 04:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 03:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] juries
Message-ID: <108.15a4adbc.2a7a6208@aol.com>

 >I've got to say that I have very little confidence in the present U.S. legal
 >system. I don't mean in a political way. I just don't think that an
 >adversarial system is all that good for determining guilt.

It's about as good as you'll get.

>Amateur juries
>seem to me to be ill equipped to handle many kinds of cases.

True.  And irrelevant to why they exist.  Juries aren't meant to be 
professional, quite the opposite.  Juries are meant to be a last and final 
check and balance against governmental power over individual citizens.  The 
government can't put anyone in jail unless they can get a bunch of amateur 
citizens to agree.  It's preferable to the alternative.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 04:08:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug  1 03:08:04 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <19e.638001c.2a7a328e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <005201c23944$b5f3ac40$6e09bd50@martinjd>



> >Just turning to the first page of world listings in GT:Rim of Fire, I
>  >see that Darrukesh has 8.2 billion sophonts.  Note that a capital ship
>  >can in theory do quite a handy job on a planet's surface, if desired.
>  >Now, as Grand Admiral of the Darrukesh fleet, would you expend
>  >1.22e-6% of your world's population to prevent that from occuring?
>
> You are discussing survival situations.  The original post concerned an
> ordinary standard tactic to be employed every time "if the navy can
tolerate
> the losses".
> They won't.

Damn right they won't. I chaired this year's Naval Force Protection
convention at the Hatton. One of the speakers was demonstrating BULLFIGHTER,
an advanced decoy system. One point he made was that this system makes more
missiles miss your ship, but often by a smaller margin than older offboard
countermeasures. This was considered entirely acceptable, despite the
(small)  risk that a decoyed missile might still hit another part of the
ship - by accident.

In the cold analysis of the conference room, the assembled personnel (from a
rear-admiral down) agreed that a greater proportion of missiles decoyed was
a very good thing because, as someone put it: surviving to carry out your
mission is necessary. Surviving to do it again is good. But surviving to go
home and collect the medals is what every sailor wants. And he wants to KNOW
that measures have been taken to ensure he will. In almost all situations,
force survivability is necessary to morale.

IE Units will NOT enter routine combat situations where they know they will
be massacred.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 04:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug  1 03:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <193.ac0a39b.2a7a20cf@aol.com>
Message-ID: <007201c23945$6b27eae0$6e09bd50@martinjd>

> >Try the loss rates for some of the RAF's 1000 bomber night attacks,
>  >then. Over 100 bombers in a night wasn't exceptional (IIRC some were
>  >near the 200 mark) and while that rate was unsustainable it wasn't for
>  >lack of volunteers, but because aircraft take time to make and crews
>  >take time to train.
>
> Imminent threats to national survival, of course, change casualty rate
> acceptance.  But the original subject was hundreds of fighter pilots for
the
> one or two lucky shots to kill a capital ship as a standard by-the-book
> tactic.  Never happen.

Besides, bomber crews did so many missions and then OUT. Your odds of
getting killed on any one of those missions were relatively small, but they
stacked up. However, you *knew* you'd probably get out before your number
came up. Whether it was true or not is another matter, but you knew.... if
the odds had been 50% chance of death per mission, and you'll keep on being
sent in again and again, well...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 04:21:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 03:21:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Acceptable losses
Message-ID: <18e.baee50e.2a7a654a@aol.com>

 >I think the idea is to look at new weapons and technology with the idea that
 >standard concepts from the last well may no longer apply.  Certainly, it is
 >impossible to anticipate change.

It is if you are the one driving it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 04:22:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 03:22:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
In-Reply-To: <20020731190152.7587.68152.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020731190152.7587.68152.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <mh2ikusl9irreg7c1m598n5h868l8saqmo@4ax.com>

On Wed, 31 Jul 2002 12:01:52 -0700, "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
wrote:

>WriteFool says

>>From the standpoint of pure economic and management 
>>efficiency I would have to agree, but on the other hand by 
>>creating the traditions and institutional memory of never 
>>giving up on a case and instilling that in to each 
>>generation of policefolk, it might help foster a certain 
>>determination as well as giving some comfort to victims' 
>>families that everything can and will be done and 
>>their losses and justice will not be forgotten.

>I would imagine that such perseverance, or lack thereof, 
>varies from planet to planet across the Imperium.  While they 
>might do things like this on, say, Regina, who can say how 
>they run things - even at the Imperial capital.

>In Washington, D.C., the homicide department is in complete 
>shambles.  I sometimes wonder if the powers that be intend 
>for it to be so.  Cases are lost, forgotten, misplaced...

>And the coroner's office is a complete joke.  It's a sore 
>point for the residents, but nothing, I repeat, nothing has 
>been done to remedy the situation.  

It would be unprofessional of me to comment on how the City of Washington
has mismanaged its police force - and in fact most municipal agencies - by
placing political correctness above professionalism and qualification, so I
will not make any such comments - including not commenting on how a
Washington police officer can be hired with felony convictions on his/her
record, provided that none were more recent than ten years ago at the time
of application.

Nor will I criticize the voters of that city for being stupid enough to
re-elect as mayor a convicted drug dealer, and then expect the tone of the
city to be anything other than what it is.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 05:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 04:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <20020801043903.8532.97422.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020801043903.8532.97422.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <av4ikugatpklat65etuddk08afchu3ve4e@4ax.com>

On Wed, 31 Jul 2002 21:39:03 -0700, "Paul Kerby" <ybrekp@mtco.com> wrote:

>Painted on the wall of the mess hall of the mess hall of the 2nd Armored
>Division(FWD) in Garlstedt Germany...

>"The purpose of the American soldier is not to die for his country, but
>to make the other bastards die for his."  George S. Patton 

And Patton got it wrong, at that - the purpose of the American soldier is
to _severely_maim_ the other bastards.  If you kill him, they can just
leave the body until it's safe to come get it and give it a burial.

If you just maim him, they have to devote manpower and resources to getting
him out of the line of fire, and trying to put him back together.  Which
means less that they can throw at you.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 05:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  1 04:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <200208011139.LVF00463@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>From: Flykiller@aol.com  
>Subject: Re: [TML] sword vs shotgun  
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
> >the best, and I mean the best, adventures are those that 
> >are "two party" adventures - one party of players against 
> >another.  The referee can never buy or write a one-party 
> >adventure that is as tense, hilarious, or as emotional as 
> >a "two party".
> >
> >Especially if the people in both parties know each other 
as 
> >gamers.  The referee doesn't have to do all of the 
thinking 
> >for one side anymore.
>
>(mental eyes opening wide as possibilities come into view)  
Now that _is_ a 
>good idea.  Has this been around for a while and I've missed 
it, or is it 
>something your group came up with?

It's an old idea.  And, it's a very good way to deal with 
those in the playing group who want to be sociopaths.  The 
referee doesn't have to kill them - the other party can try 
their best.  In my case, however, it came out even more often 
than not - being the "good" party doesn't make you 
bulletproof.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 05:45:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Thu Aug  1 04:45:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Website Update
Message-ID: <memo.512928@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <959hkuk7om6pvavlofnoevvto9cvuejv20@4ax.com>
Greetings dear hearts, especially Eris.

It's quite nice. The main sub-sector charts come out nicely, on a 17" 
monitor, might wrap awkwardly on a smaller one.

Devonia - overflows sideways - this seems to be due to the main table 
being set at width="123%" quite unnecessarily. The cells inside are set to 
a total of 100%, and the actual size of the image used would fit (at least 
on the 17" monitor).

You also might want to check the 'Body' tag, put in some elements to 
control colours, etc. Adding in that background from the sub-sector pages 
would be nice too.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 05:46:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  1 04:46:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <200208011145.LVF00804@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Flykiller says
>Yeah, I've seen 'em.  True story:  two female reservists on 
>the gallery deck, looking lost and bored and a little 
>nervous.  One of 'em suddenly brightens, turns to the other 
>and says, "Let's go to the ship's mall!"  The other lights 
>up with happiness and they head for the ladder down to the 
>store.  It was almost more than I could take.
>

I remember doing OPFOR against a Pershing missile platoon.  I 
distinctly remember a 6 foot female soldier and her shorter 
female AG running UP a 400 ft hill with an M-60 to try and 
get around on my left.  Fast, and with some sense of what she 
was doing.  I couldn't get a clear sight picture, and as I 
estimated she was reaching the top of the hill off to my 
left, I displaced, along with my friends.

Turns out she was from the motor pool.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 05:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Thu Aug  1 04:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Kit (as our British friends say)
In-Reply-To: <d4.1b055146.2a7a030a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020801115445.5089.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>

--- GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> 
> One of my favorite bits of reading is a papyrus
> detailing the pay record of a 
> Roman soldier in Egypt ca. 250 AD There are
> deductions for uniform and 
> equipment, mandatory deposit to the unit savings
> bank, contributions to the 
> burial fund (insurance) and the unit Saturnalia
> feast (held around the same 
> time as Christmas), and stoppages to pay for a wine
> bar demolished in the 
> course of a brawl. Every soldier I have ever shown
> it to marvels at the line 
> on the bottom:
> 
> "Copy 2 of 3, for unit archives"
> 
> LKW
> 
  >>
  OMG!!!!! The, the, the......[sigh]......

    MACessna
  >>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 05:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 04:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <1742d8175093.1750931742d8@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 11:41 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] warship optimization in traveller

> From: Flykiller@aol.com
> 
>     "All ships have a large internal cargo capacity enabling them 
> to 
> operate unsupported for up to 10 months.  In addition each fleet task
> force has accompanying supply vessels (with cargo sufficient to 
> completely 
> restock each vessel including themselves),..."
> 
> 
> Sir,
> 
>     What supply rules are you using and where did you find them?
> 
>     "...hospital ships,..."
> 
>     How do you design hospital ships?  How much does a surgical 
> suite 
> displace and how many do you need?  What about ICU berths?  How 
> much in 
> specialized stores will these ships need?

For JTAS subscribers, the recently-completed starship design contest 
(Contest #10) had some excellent hospital ships, albeit mostly using 
design sequences other than HG2.  Note, though, that the winning design 
(not mine, sad to say) was built using HG2.

<<snip>>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 06:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Houghton)
Date: Thu Aug  1 05:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
In-Reply-To: <mh2ikusl9irreg7c1m598n5h868l8saqmo@4ax.com>
References: <20020731190152.7587.68152.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <mh2ikusl9irreg7c1m598n5h868l8saqmo@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020801120705.GA5092@saltmine.radix.net>

Howdy!

On Thu, Aug 01, 2002 at 06:20:46AM -0400, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Jul 2002 12:01:52 -0700, "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
> wrote:
[snip]
> 
> >And the coroner's office is a complete joke.  It's a sore 
> >point for the residents, but nothing, I repeat, nothing has 
> >been done to remedy the situation.  
> 
> It would be unprofessional of me to comment on how the City of Washington
> has mismanaged its police force - and in fact most municipal agencies - by
> placing political correctness above professionalism and qualification, so I
> will not make any such comments - including not commenting on how a
> Washington police officer can be hired with felony convictions on his/her
> record, provided that none were more recent than ten years ago at the time
> of application.

Of course, since I do not work for a police department, there is no
professional courtesy to impede me from agreeing wholeheartedly.
> 
> Nor will I criticize the voters of that city for being stupid enough to
> re-elect as mayor a convicted drug dealer, and then expect the tone of the
> city to be anything other than what it is.
> 

Actually, Barry was not convicted of dealing, just possession ('Bitch
set me up!').

...and then have a mayor who can't manage to have competent and honest
people gather 2500 _valid_ signatures of _real residents_ to get his 
name on the primary ballot...

I may have the governmental entities wrong, but the entity that certified
the petitions to (I think) the board of elections (or whatever they call
it) said that hizonner had enough signatures even after they had tossed
a bunch of petitions for fraud (with about 10000 signatures presented).
The board refused to accept that certification because of the great
number of the remainder that were (ostensibly) gathered by the Bishops,
who each were noted to have provided a large number of the petitions 
that had been tossed for fraudulent signatures. Now hizonner is almost
certain to be stuck running a write-in campaign for the primary.

I'll note that that at the same time DC was reelecting a druggie, the
Virginia GOP was trying to get a liar and oathbreaker elected to the
senate (Ollie North, found guilty by a jury of his peers of a felony --
lying to Congress), and the voters in Maryland rejected a bid by a
convicted former state assemblyman for reelection.

obTrav: well...a political campaign anywhere would be livened up by
a little controversy...or a politician running for reelection from his
jail cell... 

yours,
Michael
-- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 06:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Brian Caball)
Date: Thu Aug  1 05:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Kit (as our British friends say)
In-Reply-To: <20020801115445.5089.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020801115445.5089.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <02080113001703.22132@avlendris>

> > "Copy 2 of 3, for unit archives"
>   OMG!!!!! The, the, the......[sigh]......

This seems to be flying right over my head... is that what the modern 
equivalents also say or something?

-Brian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 06:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Thu Aug  1 05:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <F63cEcLsXJB7oDaSeXn000225a2@hotmail.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote, in many posts:
>You are discussing survival situations.  The original post
>concerned an ordinary standard tactic to be employed every time
>"if the navy can tolerate the losses". They won't.

What's the difference, considering what a starfleet can
do, between "ordinary" situations and "survival" situations?
If two main fleets are banging heads for real, there *will*
be planetary populations (the ownership of, if not the lives
of) at stake.

>Sure.  I'll play you -- if you can handle it.

This is a paper-and-pencil *game* we are talking about.
"Handling it" is just a matter of whether I choose to play
or not.  This ain't full-contact team biathalon here.

>  >Rock, Paper, Scissors.  Your calculations don't go far enough.
>
>Could be.  Let's find out.  Show me.  Can you handle it?

It amuses me far more to watch you beg.

>Tonnages!  I want tonnages!  And I want to know every reason
>why you put in what you did and left out what you did.

Like this, for example.

>Show me your choices.  I'd love to see 'em.

My choice is to let someone else put up with you during
your education.

>I really do want to hear from your superior wisdom.

My "superior wisdom" tells me to sit back and chuckle at
you for a while.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 06:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 05:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
Message-ID: <20020801123223.5AA10451A@mo130uhou.palm.net>

Rob Davenport <rgd@infinet.com> wrote:
>	Ed Wood's "Starship Troopers" 

Kenji Schwartz gave a good rant compairing ST to an Ed Wood movie.
You can find it on my SciFi sig quote page. 


>-- 
>Rob Davenport -- rgd at infinet dot com 
>More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases: 
> Spero nos familiares mansuros. 
> I hope we'll still be friends. 

----------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 07:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Thu Aug  1 06:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Warships
In-Reply-To: <15b.11cdff0f.2a79e836@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D49DB0E.15430.8A1F01@localhost>

On 31 Jul 2002, at 21:26, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> Very good, and I mostly agree.  But please post a tonnage allocation for such
> an interface combat ship.  I'd love to see what you mean by "designed for it"

Well here's one I knocked up quickly. Doubtless its far from optimal, but 
you'll get the idea.

Ship: Terror
Class: Erebus
Type: Bomb Ketch
Architect: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
Tech Level: 15

USP
         BK-H9059J3-L59005-55545-0 MCr 5,624.770 8 KTons
Bat Bear             1   1 15118   Crew: 110
Bat                  1   1 15118   TL: 15

Cargo: 170 Fuel: 720.000 EP: 720 Agility: 5 Shipboard Security Detail: 8 
Marines: 25 Drop Capsules: 140
Craft: 2 x 50T Cutters
Fuel Treatment: On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/9fib Computer 1 x Bridge 1 x Factor 9 Meson Screen

Architects Fee: MCr 56.048   Cost in Quantity: MCr 4,503.816


Detailed Description

HULL
8,000.000 tons standard, 112,000.000 cubic meters, Buffered Planetoid 
Configuration

CREW
15 Officers, 70 Ratings, 25 Marines

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 5G Manuever, Power plant-9, 720.000 EP, Agility 5

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/9fib Computer
1 Backup Bridge, 1 Model/9fib Backup Computer

HARDPOINTS
3 50-ton bays, 50 Hardpoints

ARMAMENT
1 50-ton Meson Bay (Factor-4), 1 50-ton Particle Accelerator Bay (Factor-
5), 40 Triple Missile Turrets organised into 8 Batteries (Factor-5), 3 Triple 
Beam Laser Turrets organised into 1 Battery (Factor-5), 5 Dual Fusion Gun 
Turrets organised into 5 Batteries (Factor-5)

DEFENCES
1 50-ton Repulsor Bay (Factor-5), 2 Triple Sandcaster Turrets organised 
into 1 Battery (Factor-5), Meson Screen (Factor-9), Armoured Hull (Factor-
20)
1 Meson Screen Backup (Factor-9)

CRAFT
2 50.000 ton Cutters (Crew of 1, Cost of MCr 10.000)

FUEL
720.000 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
No Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
58 Staterooms, 140 Drop Capsule Launchers, 170 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
1 Missile Magazine (100.000 tons, Crew 0, Cost MCr 10.000)

COST
MCr 5,660.818 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 56.048), MCr 4,483.816 
in Quantity, plus MCr 20.000 of Carried Craft

CONSTRUCTION TIME
156 Weeks Singly, 125 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
Important factors
1) Planetary assaults are planned and this ship is not intended for line of 
battle work therefore a rider is optimal, and endurance functions (eg 
supplies, reloads etc) can be moved to the tender.
2) The buffered planetoid configuration allows sufficent armour to render the 
vessel immune to all but meson fire and gives good protection against 
meson fire
3) Since the ship is operating in orbit, minimal agility is acceptable
4) The jump capsules allow rapid evacuation and recovery by friendly 
vessels
5) Since the ships is immune to missile fire due to the heavy armour, 
nuclear dampers are unneccessary
6) The backup meson screen, computer and bridge extend the surviability
7) The primary armarment of missiles allows a wide range of deadfall 
weaponry
8) The single PA is for use against vacuum targets

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 07:07:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 06:07:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Published Trav Authors
Message-ID: <1b62a01b63e3.1b63e31b62a0@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 11:56 am
Subject: Re: [TML] Published Trav Authors

> At 12:21 PM 7/30/2002 +1000, you wrote:
> >Yahhhhhh! The Citizens of the Imperium website
> >accepted my patron encounter. So now I am being
> >published (online) by an official Trav lisencee. Where
> >do I send away for my offcial Trav Authors flying
> >scarf and tweed jacket set? ;P I can also get in all
> >the really classy bars! 
> 
> Go to the corner of Third and Main (doesn't matter in what city.)  
> Look for
> a man wearing a black "I Wished For GDSM And All I Got Was This 
> Lousy +3
> T-Shirt" Nethack shirt.  If he is eating pepperoni pizza, it is 
> safe to
> approach.  Say "I understand the penguins are wintering in St 
> Moritz."  He
> will say "No, it is to touristy.  They prefer Telluride."  Your 
> final sign
> will be to tug on your right earlobe and say "Penguins? I meant 
> the Royal
> Family. It is hard to tell them apart. Or maybe the Osbournes."

Hmmm.  They must have changed the recognition codes again.  At least, 
that's not the recognition sequence I was given after _101 
Corporations_ was published.  Sadly, I was mobilized for Sinai before I 
could be formally initiated.  Perhaps next year, ideally at BayCon 
(assuming I'm not mobilized yet again) :-(.

At least I won't have to take Greyhound from Baton Rouge for my next 
BayCon, since my Bosnia earnings allowed me to buy a used minivan and 
set it up as a one-man RV....
> 
> If this is carried out to the agent's satisfaction, you will be 
> drugged,blindfolded, and taken to the Traveller Writers' Secret 
> UndergroundHeadquarters.  There, you will be prepared for 
> initiation.  Please let the
> nice doctors know your blood type *before* the test of the Pit of 
> RabidWeasels and Equally Rabid Editors.

Ah, but that takes all the challenge out of it.

<<snip>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 07:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn Crawford)
Date: Thu Aug  1 06:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Starship Troopers
Message-ID: <F10888MMAv7Nf4086xB00003354@hotmail.com>

George Lucas' Starship Troopers

Wesa powah infantree gonna die?

Far be it from me to question your stupid civilisation or dumb customs...
S. Fry


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 07:40:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Thu Aug  1 06:40:04 2002
Subject: N-dimensional law-levels (was Re: [TML] sword vs shotgun)
In-Reply-To: <200207311911.13195.red@archonet.com>
Message-ID: <000001c23961$00f0b0a0$6501a8c0@Darla>

DGP's World Builder's handbook detailed law levels into sub-levels for
Weapons, Trade, Criminal Law, Civil Law and Personal Freedom, which
seems like a reasonable breakdown.

Perhaps the TAS publications use weapons as the published law level so
travelers can have an idea about what they can strap up with before they
hit dirt...

TWB



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 09:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Aug  1 08:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <F137of0aYhHnKZ1nSIz0000ee76@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     The increasingly goofy warship optimization thread sent me off waddling 
the 'Net courtesy of Google.  A short search pulled up a few interesting 
facts regarding to times during WW2 in which aircraft, and their flight 
crews, were "traded" for warships.

Midway - We all know this story; torpedo squadrons pressing home futile 
attack after attack, drawing Japanese attention towards sea level and away 
from the arriving dive bombers in an unplanned, but wildly successful, 
tactic.
     The three squadrons involved flew Devastators, NOT Swordfish as earlier 
posted.  The incrediably elderly Swordfish biplane belonged the RAF's Fleet 
Air Arm (the RN couldn't design or "own" its embarked aircraft!  D'oh!).  
The USN's Devastators had been in service ~7 years and was an obselescent 
design too, although not as bad as the Swordfish(1).
     The three squadrons involved were; VT-3, flown from USS Yorktown, VT-6, 
flown from USS Enterprise, and VT-8 flown from USS Hornet.
     Losses are as follows:
VT-3, 10 of 12 aircraft, 20 of 24 men
VT-6, 10 of 14 aircraft, 20 of 28 men
VT-8, 15 of 15 aircraft, 29 of 30 men
     for a total of:
      35 aircraft and 69 men

     In "return", the USN sank three IJN carriers (before you squawk, please 
note the fourth IJN carrier lost was sunk later in the day and not during 
this specific airstrike).  Let's call it ~10 aircraft and ~20 men per 
warship destroyed.
     Midway was a special case; the IJN needed to be stopped, the USN was 
weak, Midway, Pearl, and ultimately the West Coast needed to be defended, so 
the Americans probably employed somewhat desperate tactics or weren't too 
squeamish about losses as long as the battle was won.
     Now let's look at a not so desperate situation.

The IJN Yamato - The USMC and USA are fighting on Okinawa and the USN is 
close offshore fighting too.  Kamikazes are making life rather difficult for 
the USN, but they're holding their own.  Then the largest kamikaze of them 
all is sent along, the Yamato.
     On 7 APR 1945, USN carriers send 400 aircraft at the Yamato to prevent 
her from arriving at Okinawa.  They lose 10 aircraft and 12 men sending her 
to the bottom, roughly comparable to the numbers it took to sink an IJN CV 
at Midway.  Was this "sacrifice" really necessary?  Would the Yamato have 
reached Okinawa and interfered with the fighting there?
     No.
     The USN had already pulled SIX BBs off the gunline, plus the usual 
assortment of escorting CAs and DDs, to tackle the Yamato if she made it 
through the airstrikes.  Yamato was going to be sunk one way or the other, 
either via massed airstrikes or an extremely one-sided surface engagement.
     So why did the USN "waste" 10 planes and 12 men to sink her, when the 
battleline could have done the job?  Because, the airstrikes were cheaper.  
The US casulties and damage incurred in a gun duel with the Yamato would 
have been far greater than 12 men and the costs of 10 planes.
     When the conditions are right and the options are limited, militaries 
will make these sort of trades all the time.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 09:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 08:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <e6.2be0ca41.2a7a3051@aol.com>
References: <e6.2be0ca41.2a7a3051@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3ptx2twnf.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
>
> But there is a big difference between what you are saying and what
> was implied in the original post.

There's a big difference between what you are inferring and what the
original post stated.  It simply stated, IIRC, that it might take 100
fighters to eliminate a capital ship.  It implied, again IIRC, nothing
about the size of the wave which would lose the 100.

> I'll say again regarding the original post: any pack of pilots that
> would volunteer to die by the hundreds to kill one capital ship as a
> regular ordinary tactic will all be at level 0.  There will be no
> experienced person to train or lead them.

I'll say again: it depends on the size of the wave.  How large were
the British waves in WWII when 100-200 a night were lost?  How large
might a Traveller wave be?  If it's 105, you may be right.  If it's
13,000 you're very probably wrong.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
With the Smart Ship's reputation so far, they will have to build a bloody
big trebuchet for the damn thing to be useful as a weapon.
                                         --Derry Hamilton

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:02:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:02:05 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <e6.2be0ca41.2a7a3051@aol.com>
References: <e6.2be0ca41.2a7a3051@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3ptx2twnf.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
>
> But there is a big difference between what you are saying and what
> was implied in the original post.

There's a big difference between what you are inferring and what the
original post stated.  It simply stated, IIRC, that it might take 100
fighters to eliminate a capital ship.  It implied, again IIRC, nothing
about the size of the wave which would lose the 100.

> I'll say again regarding the original post: any pack of pilots that
> would volunteer to die by the hundreds to kill one capital ship as a
> regular ordinary tactic will all be at level 0.  There will be no
> experienced person to train or lead them.

I'll say again: it depends on the size of the wave.  How large were
the British waves in WWII when 100-200 a night were lost?  How large
might a Traveller wave be?  If it's 105, you may be right.  If it's
13,000 you're very probably wrong.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
With the Smart Ship's reputation so far, they will have to build a bloody
big trebuchet for the damn thing to be useful as a weapon.
                                         --Derry Hamilton

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:02:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:02:39 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <bf.241eecb7.2a7a4368@aol.com>
References: <bf.241eecb7.2a7a4368@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3lm7qtwhm.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
> 
> Yes, with a huge Japanese fleet threatening their homeland and only
> them standing between the yellow peril and their families.  It was
> not, however, a standard tactic, employed "because they'll tolerate
> it".

You keep on making a distinction between `fighting for survival' and
`standard tactics.'  I get the impression that you view the Frontier
Wars as something like our involvement in Panama or Afghanistan (or
Nicaragua, Cuba, Vietnam, Korea &c.) and unlike our involvment in,
say, WWII.  I strenously disagree.  To an Imperial world, the thought
of being captured by the Zhodani is every bit as bad as being captured
by the Japanese was to a Hawaiian.  Sure, the fellows from the Vegan
polity might not care as much, but the soldiers, pilots &c. from the
worlds in question very much _would_.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I love the way Microsoft follows standards.  In much the same manner
that fish follow migrating caribou.                   --Paul Tomblin

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:03:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:03:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Starship Troopers
In-Reply-To: <F10888MMAv7Nf4086xB00003354@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020801154829.54251.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>

Then there's

Ernest Joins the Federation
  Starring Ernest P Whorrel as Johnny "Ernest" Rico

[shudder]


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:04:03 2002
Subject: Service Pay ( [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CC3@USCHM203>

>Robert Uhl wrote:

> "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> writes:
> Huh,  I thought that was only officers.  That just seems wrong to me
> (not that you're wrong; that they're wrong to do it that way).  Did
> y'all have to pay for your foods & cooks too?

Food was free, and I have to be honest, it was good food everywhere I was
stationed. Not restaurant quality, but better than the high school
cafeteria.


Tod L Glenn wrote:

>What service and when?  When I went through The Ft. Benning school for boys
>(Summer 1980), we were paid in cash monthly.  $600 dollars, as I recall.
>Accountable property was just that.  It was signed out to you, and you were
>expected to sign it back in.  Anything missing or damaged, you paid for.

Tod,
	USMC, 1986. Our pay was close to $800 a month. Never knew anyone who
lost a rifle, but people would lose web gear, canteens, and such. 
	Sometimes guys were tempted to "lose" some items just so they could
have them at home when they got out. NO WEAPONS!!! They don't just write
that off. There WILL be an investigation, and you'll get 20 years in
Leavenworth. Not only that, but any Marine, however good friends you are,
would dissuade you or turn you in. At least I hope they would.
	Mostly it was small stuff like web gear and magazine holders.
Perhaps a flak jacket or gas mask. As it is, you can pick all that stuff up
at surplus stores (though at a MUCH higher cost).
	I do know a guy from Spartanburg, SC who took home an empty Dragon
Tube, but it still had the end caps. Last I heard he mounted it above his
fireplace.
	For the record, they don't let you take used LAW tubes, spent brass,
or training grenades home. I tried to take some spent 40mm Grenade
cartridges home that we used as ashtrays, and they confiscated them at the
airport.

	ObTrav, imagine having your pay docked for an FGMP-15? Hope you
planned on staying in for 5 terms!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:04:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:04:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <8d.1bfa1383.2a7a4253@aol.com>
References: <8d.1bfa1383.2a7a4253@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3heietvzo.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
>
> > The point of my video game comment was to illustrate that it's not
> > unrealistic that fighter pilot skills might conceivably be learned
> > from games.  I still believe that to be the case; you've certainly
> > not demonstrated otherwise.
> 
> Try contacting a real fighter pilot sometime.  Ask him if fighter
> pilot skills might be learned from sophisticated games.

Sure, not now: a video game, even a military simulator, is simply not
possible of fully-simulating flight, combat &c.  But thousands of
years in the future that's not an issue.  If you can damp inertia and
fake gravity, you can fake the motions and sensations of combat.  If
you can broadcast in 3D, you can generate a photo-realistic world
outside the phony cockpit windows.  The only thing you _cannot_
simulate is the fear of death--and real military training cannot AFAIK
do that either; only actual flight time can do that.

> Ask your local recruiter--maybe he has a pilot come in once in a
> while to help him recruit.  Or heck, you could even call a nearby
> AFB or naval base, contact the liaison, and ask to speak to a pilot
> for ten minutes or so.  But it would be better if you can look him
> in the eye as he talks to you.

You seem to think that I am foolish enough to believe that a modern
video game can teach flight skills.  I'm not: I'm writing about
`games' thousands of years in the future.

How about you do the reverse: go to a computer scientist or computer
engineer.  Ask him if, assuming inertial damping, artifical gravity
and photo-realistic three-dimension and two thousand years of Moore's
Law, computers will be able to completely simulate a flight and
combat.  Look him in the eye when you do so.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
My word processor was written by Stanford Professor Donald Knuth.  Who
wrote yours?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:05:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:05:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <F228Wv2vyWb6cxHKx7000010140@hotmail.com>

     "...although not as bad as the Swordfish(1)."


Ladies and Gentlemen,

     Please excuse me, I forgot to add the footnote.


(1) - The Swordfishs' very obs0lescence may have actually helped it survive 
in battle.  A most likely apophrycal story from the Bismarck saga has the 
German AA fire missing the attacking Swordfish because the aircraft were 
moving too SLOW, the AA crews led their targets by too much.  Swordfish made 
their torpedo runs at ~90 mph and weather conditions could drop that speed 
even further.
     The Swordfish may been viwed as a joke by other navies, it still got 
the job done at Taranto and with the Bismarck however.


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:05:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:05:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <003b01c23943$a8f1b4c0$6e09bd50@martinjd>
References: <8d.1bfa1383.2a7a4253@aol.com>
 <003b01c23943$a8f1b4c0$6e09bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <m3d6t2tvro.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> writes:
> 
> I play Tekken against my training partner quite a lot.  But you
> know?  We get out fighting skills from hitting one another for real.
> Pushing buttons just doesn't give the feedback.  Or the blood and
> snot.

Piloting is not fighting--it's driving a vehicle.  Given a real
cockpit with the controls connected to a computer, given a
photorealistic 3D display, given inertia simulators and artificial
gravity (same thing?  I dunno.), given a computer roughly
6.14250342873998e234 as powerful as a modern August 2002 computer, you
_could_ accurately simulate a flight, and accurately simulate
anti-aircraft measures, and accurately simulate birds, and accurately
simulate explosions nearby (and far away, for that matter), and
accurately simulate weather, and accurately simulate the stresses of
flying &c. &c. &c.

The only reasonable objections are that inertial simulation and
artificial grav are impossible, that photorealistic 3D displays are
impossible or that Moore's Law will not hold up for two thousand
years.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Contrary to popular opinion there often is a right answer.
            --Carter & Sanger, Thinking about Programming

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:06:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:06:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <000501c2392c$7b7b0800$6f7ba8c0@kenneith93j41k>
References: <f3.1ed9f0cb.2a7a396a@aol.com>
 <000501c2392c$7b7b0800$6f7ba8c0@kenneith93j41k>
Message-ID: <m38z3qtvlw.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Joseph Elric Smith Mormon minion of Arioch" <kruch7@cox.net> writes:
>
> That is the whole argument of detant, that the cost would be too
> high if both sides went to war.

Which doesn't work, if one side has a significantly different cost
model than the other.  Acc. to my father, the Russians were never
nearly as worried about nuclear war as we were.  The reason?  They can
march to Europe.

Note I don't say they were unworried; simply that the leadership did
not view it as the completely and utterly unmitigated disaster that
ours did.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`How do you explain bikini underwear and chocolate 
 sprinkles pressed between pages 102 and 103 of the 
 Canterbury Tales?  It must have been quite an evening.'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:06:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:06:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CC5@USCHM203>

James Ramsay wrote:
 Re:"but a fighter pilot is the entire crew" 

>All he has to do is launch his missiles and run! He is
>only one ship of many. The odds are probably in favor
>of him surviving.

	I don't know if my logic was unsound, but this is one of the reasons
I signed up for infantry rather than armor or even the air wing. And why I
never wanted to be on a ship (let alone a sub).
As deadly as it is for infantry during a battle, being one of many still
makes me feel like less of a target than being in a tank. Years later I have
read many accounts of WWII infantry veterans who did not want to be anywhere
near a tank or heavy weapon because they knew it was going to draw attention
and fire.
	It's easier to pop off a few rounds and squeeze my 170 lbs (many
years ago) behind cover than it is to hide a tank or field gun after firing.
Hell, I can disappear in a small clump of bushes if I have to.
	Statistically, it might not be as safe. I'm sure someone can come up
with figures. Regardless, psychologically it seems to make sense. I imagine
fighter pilots in large squadrons feel less exposed as well. Safety in
numbers and all that. Perception over reality, perhaps, but I bet that,
given the choice of crossing a river under fire on a large 200 man barge or
20 ten man boats, most people would take the latter.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] juries
In-Reply-To: <108.15a4adbc.2a7a6208@aol.com>
References: <108.15a4adbc.2a7a6208@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m34reetvfp.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
> 
> > Amateur juries seem to me to be ill equipped to handle many kinds
> > of cases.
> 
> True.  And irrelevant to why they exist.  Juries aren't meant to be 
> professional, quite the opposite.  Juries are meant to be a last and final 
> check and balance against governmental power over individual citizens.  The 
> government can't put anyone in jail unless they can get a bunch of amateur 
> citizens to agree.  It's preferable to the alternative.

And here I'll agree with you whole-heartedly.  Juries are _supposed_
to give every benefit of the doubt to the accused.  Hence the jury of
one's peers (which I think could arguably be extended to mean race,
sex and class).  Hence the myriad of protections for the accused.
hence the rules on evidence-gathering.  All so that, once that guilty
verdict is read, we can _believe_ it and act accordingly, that is
deprive the convicted man of life, liberty or property as punishment.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
You see, in the post-televisual world we read.  --John Gipson

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:07:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Strain)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:07:39 2002
Subject: [TML] John Strain where have you gone? (Antony Farrell)
References: <20020801134003.15380.76944.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <01fd01c23976$2bdb1f20$a03a3140@dixienet.com>

ARGGGg, shoot! I am not suprised one bit - I have had the highest 'bounce'
rate this past month ever! ~~ John

email  missingjn@dixie-net.com      strain_john@hotmail.com
 strainjohn@yahoo.com     strain_john@ivillage.com     pick one...or try
them all.

> From: "Antony Farrell"  Subject: [TML] John Strain where have you gone?
> are you still here? The emails I sent to you regarding the graphics you
want
> to use have been bouncing. Something about invalid return address.
> Could you try sending me another email   Antony



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:09:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:09:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Acceptable losses
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CC8@USCHM203>

>Flykiller wrote:

>I read somewhere that during the War Between the States the Northern armies

>would place new recruits in entirely new brigades, which made them
>unreliable 
>at first, while the Southern armies would install their new recruits in 
>established armies, which steadied their new recruits greatly.

Not exactly relevant, but mention of the Civil War reminded me of what one
of my South Carolinian friends told me:

"You know what the difference was between a rich Yankee and a rich
Southerner? The rich Yankee paid someone to take his place in the army, and
the rich Southerner outfitted his own regiment."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:10:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:10:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <20020801122203.46aeed42cde04f34877f57ddbe49f2bf.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>     The three squadrons involved flew Devastators, NOT Swordfish as earlier 
>posted.  The incrediably elderly Swordfish biplane belonged the RAF's Fleet 
>Air Arm (the RN couldn't design or "own" its embarked aircraft!  D'oh!).  

Well, until just before World War 2.  Then it was the Royal NAVY's Fleet Air
Arm again, only after much struggle.  One of the less brilliant ideas of
Hugh Trenchard when he was creating the RAF, including both the Royal Flying
Corp and the RN's air arm.  

The design part is true, until World War Two.  Which also meant the Royal
Navy and the British aviation industry had lacked experience of designing
and building carrier-borne aircraft, which meant it took to near the end of
the war before the RN had a good indigenous (Plenty of American carrier
aircraft available.), dedicated carrier-borne aircraft (The Seafire did not
start life as a carrier aircraft.).

>The USN's Devastators had been in service ~7 years and was an obselescent 
>design too, although not as bad as the Swordfish(1).

The Swordfish was not bad....And for the role it was intended, it was
probably better then the TBD!  Which is a sad commentary on US naval
aviation more then anything else.

I would also nominate Operation PEDESTAL, the fighting around Crete, much of
the Mediterranean war, etc.

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

 My Sale List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
 My Want List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:11:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:11:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Acceptable losses
In-Reply-To: <m3bs8ngokq.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <20020731235711.7e8b877379fe414d85fbfc7414631d19.in@keywest.kennett.net>
 <20020731235711.7e8b877379fe414d85fbfc7414631d19.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801091513.4667c4d0@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:01 PM 7/31/2002 -0600, you wrote:

>No, you don't understand.  Every unit must have a Texan (known as
>Tex), a Brooklyner, a racist Southerner, an effete intellectual, a Jew
>and half-a-dozen Midwesterners.  At least, acc. to the war movies:-)

Been reading Ground Forces again?

(For those who don't have it (shame on you!) I included a pile of
sterotypical war-movie types, and how to build them.  The Opie, the
Get-Over Artist, Casanovas, Old Sergeants...)
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Embrace Fascism.    The uniforms look cool


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:12:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:12:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Con Jose the World SF Con any Travellers going?
In-Reply-To: <200208010315.g713FgD09733@sun.ebtech.net>
References: <005601c23562$877a46c0$810fbd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801092023.45176588@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:12 PM 7/31/2002 -500, you wrote:
>Hi I'll be at Con Jose working the Coffeeklatches
>
>Anyone else planning on attending?

I'll be there, working publications.

>Maybe we could get together over a meal to talk Traveller.

It would be fun.  May I suggest that anyone attending ConJose subscribe to
Travller in SF.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TravellerinSF/

So we can coordinate a meeting time and place.  If we want to do an actual
dinner, I need to know how many people are coming.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
- Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:12:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:12:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Kit (as our British friends say)
In-Reply-To: <d4.1b055146.2a7a030a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801092658.4c07ad3c@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:20 PM 7/31/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>One of my favorite bits of reading is a papyrus detailing the pay record
of a 
>Roman soldier in Egypt ca. 250 AD There are deductions for uniform and 
>equipment, mandatory deposit to the unit savings bank, contributions to the 
>burial fund (insurance) and the unit Saturnalia feast (held around the same 
>time as Christmas), and stoppages to pay for a wine bar demolished in the 
>course of a brawl. Every soldier I have ever shown it to marvels at the line 
>on the bottom:
>
>"Copy 2 of 3, for unit archives"

Good lord, a Roman LES?  (Leave and Earning Statement)  Just goes to show
why the Empire fell, they developed a military bureaucracy.

What is the Latin for Rear Echelon Mother-F**ker?
--

Duugirashir Irebamenagiin  gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
Inquisitor Maximus, Reformed Canon Church of Sylea


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:13:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:13:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Kit (as our British friends say)
In-Reply-To: <02080113001703.22132@avlendris>
References: <20020801115445.5089.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>
 <20020801115445.5089.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801092932.4517038c@pop.mindspring.com>

At 01:00 PM 8/1/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>
>> > "Copy 2 of 3, for unit archives"
>>   OMG!!!!! The, the, the......[sigh]......
>
>This seems to be flying right over my head... is that what the modern 
>equivalents also say or something?

The modern US Military has a form called the Leave and Earning Statement
(LES) that details your rank, pay received, and any deductions made such as
AUSA dues (Association of the US Army), insurance, and forfeiture of pay
due to Article 15 punishments.  There are several copies, one of which is
stored at the battalion-level in case there is a problem with your pay.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:13:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:13:51 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
In-Reply-To: <200207312007.LTZ05292@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801093246.4c070802@pop.mindspring.com>

At 04:07 PM 7/31/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>"Glenn M. Goffin" says
>>So, John, are you a sociopath in real life, or do you just 
>>play one in RPGs?
>
>In real life, the Army saw fit to conduct a psychological 
>evaluation, and on the commander's recommendation, I was sent 
>to sniper school.  Later, when I became a software 
>consultant...

Hey!  They gave me a pysch eval before I was assigned to sniper school!
Evidently, I was just sociopathic enough for their purposes...
-- 

Douglas E. Berry      gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"Well, thanks to the Internet, I'm now bored
 with sex." - Fry, Futurama

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:14:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:14:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Acceptable losses
In-Reply-To: <18e.baee50e.2a7a654a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801093629.477f1bde@pop.mindspring.com>

At 06:19 AM 8/1/2002 EDT, you wrote:
> >I think the idea is to look at new weapons and technology with the idea 
> >that standard concepts from the last well may no longer apply.  Certainly, 
> >it is impossible to anticipate change.
>
>It is if you are the one driving it.

Not really.  Sometimes, changes you intiate have consequences that you
can't predict.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:14:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:14:56 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <av4ikugatpklat65etuddk08afchu3ve4e@4ax.com>
References: <20020801043903.8532.97422.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <20020801043903.8532.97422.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801094055.44fff8cc@pop.mindspring.com>

At 06:58 AM 8/1/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>And Patton got it wrong, at that - the purpose of the American soldier is
>to _severely_maim_ the other bastards.  If you kill him, they can just
>leave the body until it's safe to come get it and give it a burial.
>
>If you just maim him, they have to devote manpower and resources to getting
>him out of the line of fire, and trying to put him back together.  Which
>means less that they can throw at you.

It is a violation of the laws of land warfare to intentionally shoot to
maim or injure an enemy combatant.  You are supposed to go for the kill.
This mainly applies to snipers, who have been known to wound enemy soldiers
as bait for rescue attempts.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:17:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:17:10 2002
Subject: Service Pay ( [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <2c231b2c59ae.2c59ae2c231b@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>
Date: Thursday, August 1, 2002 6:42 pm
Subject: Re: Service Pay ( [TML] warship optimization in traveller

<<snip>> 
> 
> Tod L Glenn wrote:
> 
> >What service and when?  When I went through The Ft. Benning 
> school for boys
> >(Summer 1980), we were paid in cash monthly.  $600 dollars, as I 
> recall.>Accountable property was just that.  It was signed out to 
> you, and you were
> >expected to sign it back in.  Anything missing or damaged, you 
> paid for.
> 

This practice goes a long way to explaining why captains go down with 
the ship.... ;-)

<<snip>>
> 
> 	ObTrav, imagine having your pay docked for an FGMP-15? Hope you
> planned on staying in for 5 terms!

I've always wanted to see the hand receipt for a _Tigress_....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <2d16412cfe49.2cfe492d1641@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Thursday, August 1, 2002 7:24 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships

<<snip>>
> 
> >The USN's Devastators had been in service ~7 years and was an 
> obselescent 
> >design too, although not as bad as the Swordfish(1).
> 
> The Swordfish was not bad....And for the role it was intended, it was
> probably better then the TBD!  Which is a sad commentary on US naval
> aviation more then anything else.

OTOH, the Stringbag was never sent into battle against carrier-based 
fighters.  The TBD pilots at Midway, meanwhile, had to try to survive 
without fighter cover against the A6M Zero.  Hardly a fair contest (of 
course, any military leader who tries to fight war _fairly_ isn't doing 
the job correctly).

<<snip>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:21:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:21:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Character Conversions
Message-ID: <20020801172052.47546.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>

Has anyone ever come up with a good character
conversion system?  I mean one that allows for
conversion to CT, MT, TNE, T4, GT, and T20.

I know that some of these are very similar (MT & T4),
but what about the others?

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Character Conversions
Message-ID: <2dbfaf2d6ae3.2d6ae32dbfaf@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com>
Date: Thursday, August 1, 2002 8:20 pm
Subject: [TML] Character Conversions

> Has anyone ever come up with a good character
> conversion system?  I mean one that allows for
> conversion to CT, MT, TNE, T4, GT, and T20.
> 
> I know that some of these are very similar (MT & T4),
> but what about the others?

CT, MT and T4 chargen rules are similar enough (at least if you use LBB 
4+ for your CT characters) that conversion is fairly straightforward.  
IIRC (I failed to pack my copy for shipment to Sinai), _Survival Margin_ 
includes notes on converting MT characters to TNE.  Similarly, the base 
GT rulebook includes conversion rules for most, if not all, previous 
Trav rulesets.  Someone else will have to answer about T20.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:31:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:31:05 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CC1@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801101615.43af8f6e@pop.mindspring.com>

At 05:48 PM 7/31/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>I assume the other veterans experienced this as well. I'm curious if you
>were as surprised as I was.

In the US Army of the early-mid 80s, all my basic issue was just that:
issued.  I was authorized four sets of BDUs, two pairs of boots, combat,
leather, etc..  I could always exchange a set that had become damaged or
worn for a new set.  Of course, I bought extra sets of BDUs so I had a
parade-ready issue set at all times. (The "field-gear" got stuffed in a car
trunk during command inspections.)

Things like our LBE, shelter halves, fart sacks and the like were issued at
the organizational level, and had to be turned in when we were transfered,
which was a bitch and a half for cleaning.

>Oh, and they also charged us for haircuts. As if we had a choice.

Barbar shop was a civilian contractor, he made his money shaving recruits
and cutting hair for soldiers.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Embrace Fascism.    The uniforms look cool


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:31:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:31:35 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <193.ac0a39b.2a7a20cf@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801102115.43afd25a@pop.mindspring.com>

At 01:27 AM 8/1/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>Imminent threats to national survival, of course, change casualty rate 
>acceptance.  But the original subject was hundreds of fighter pilots for the 
>one or two lucky shots to kill a capital ship as a standard by-the-book 
>tactic.  Never happen.

Look up the Battle of Midway.  The IJN Hiryu was caught reloading and
refueling by American dive bombers.  It took three hits and was on fire and
sank soon afterwards.  Another of the Japanese carriers absorbed a dozen
hits beofre sinking.

The Golden Shot does occur, that's why we try.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:32:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:32:07 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <bf.241eecb7.2a7a4368@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801102509.44ff225e@pop.mindspring.com>

At 03:55 AM 8/1/2002 EDT, you wrote:
> >>asking hundreds of them at a time to give up their lives all 
> >>at once, just to make a tactic work, in one segment of a 
> >>single battle, is not an insignificant outlay for THEM.  
> >>(push button) "go do this, guys."  (lights 
> >>flash) "ok."  it doesn't work that way.
> > 
> >See the battle of Midway.  The low level torpedo attack 
> >planes that sacrificed themselves to Japanese anti-aircraft 
> >fire so that the dive bombers would have a chance.
>
>Yes, with a huge Japanese fleet threatening their homeland and only them 
>standing between the yellow peril and their families.  It was not, however, 
>a standard tactic, employed "because they'll tolerate it".

Wrong.  Hawaii was a colony at the time, and the actual United states was
2000 miles away.  The Navy pilots did their jobs because that's what they
were trained to do.  Because that was the mission: sink those flat-tops.

Read up on the Battle of Camerone, or Gallipoli, or Verdun.  Soldiers can
and will sacrifice themselves for a greater purpose.
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <F137of0aYhHnKZ1nSIz0000ee76@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000001c23982$55e0e910$6501a8c0@Darla>

As an elaboration, the torpedo squadrons at Midway did not score any
hits -- but, quite by accident, they drew the Japanese fighter cover
down to sea level and cleared the way for the divebomber attacks that
sank three carriers.

This was not a deliberate "trade".  It just happened that way.  The
torpedo squadrons pressed their attack because they knew it was their
duty to do so.  They did not have ANY knowledge that they were setting
up a coordinated attack, or even of the presence of either of the two
other torpedo squadrons.  They attacked out of their determination to
close with and destroy the enemy:

"My greatest hope is that we encounter a favorable tactical situation,
but if we don't, and the worst comes to the worst, I want each of us to
do his utmost to destroy our enemies.  If there is only one plane left
to make a final run in, I want that man to go in and get a hit.  May God
go with us all."  --- John C. Waldron, CO TORPEDO EIGHT, 4 June 1942

The point being, that warriors fighting for what they believe it do not
weigh the cost in the moment of combat -- they do their duty, and there
is little that they cannot accomplish.


Thomas Barnes



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 11:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 10:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Acceptable losses
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020801091513.4667c4d0@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <20020731235711.7e8b877379fe414d85fbfc7414631d19.in@keywest.kennett.net>
 <20020731235711.7e8b877379fe414d85fbfc7414631d19.in@keywest.kennett.net>
 <3.0.5.16.20020801091513.4667c4d0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m3lm7qsbz0.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes:
> 
> Been reading Ground Forces again?

Not recently, but I do own it.  Hope you enjoyed the fraction of a cup
of coffee:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Man, I'm glad that I'm not using [Microsoft Product].  This new
[virus/worm/trojan] exploits a [flaw/bug/backdoor] in [Microsoft
Product], and it [does/doesn't] use Outlook and the stupidity of users.
Luckily, I'm running [Free alternative to Microsoft product], so I'm not
at risk.  In fact, [Free alternative to Microsoft product] has protected
me from [any integer over 200] [viruses/worms/trojans].  And just look
at the [hundreds/thousands/millions/billions] of dollars that I've saved
using [Free alternative to Microsoft product].  I hope that this [Free
alternative to Microsoft product] takes off, along with [free
alternative to Microsoft OS].  Unfortunately, my [company/home] has to
pay for the stupidity of Microsoft: this [virus/worm/trojan] sucked
[250KB/250MB/250GB/250TB] of bandwidth!                  --cwcairns

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CCC@USCHM203>

Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 09:40:55
To: tml@travellercentral.com
>"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:

>It is a violation of the laws of land warfare to intentionally shoot to
>maim or injure an enemy combatant.  You are supposed to go for the kill.
>This mainly applies to snipers, who have been known to wound enemy soldiers
>as bait for rescue attempts.

Don't know if this is true or not, but supposedly it is also a violation to
use an M2 (the .50 caliber Heavy MG of a recent thread) to shoot at
individual combatants. It is only to be used for attacking vehicles and
equipment.
A friend of mine who served in the US 101st told me that an instructor at
Fort Campbell then went on to give examples of what could be considered
"equipment":

"Web gear, canteens, helmets, eyeglasses, magazines, entrenching tools...."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:03:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:03:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Acceptable losses
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CC8@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <000001c23985$cff0e5e0$6501a8c0@Darla>

AFAIK the major reason that the Union Army in the ACW tended to raise
new regiments instead of adding replacement to veteran ones was that
raising a new regiment allowed the governor of the state to commission a
regiment's worth of officers, up to and including a Colonel.  

TWB

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com [mailto:tml-
> admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Hurrel, Brian
> Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 11:31 AM
> To: 'tml@travellercentral.com'
> Subject: Re: [TML] Acceptable losses
> 
> >Flykiller wrote:
> 
> >I read somewhere that during the War Between the States the Northern
> armies
> 
> >would place new recruits in entirely new brigades, which made them
> >unreliable
> >at first, while the Southern armies would install their new recruits
in
> >established armies, which steadied their new recruits greatly.
> 
> Not exactly relevant, but mention of the Civil War reminded me of what
one
> of my South Carolinian friends told me:
> 
> "You know what the difference was between a rich Yankee and a rich
> Southerner? The rich Yankee paid someone to take his place in the
army,
> and
> the rich Southerner outfitted his own regiment."
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <200208011810.LVR04270@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Douglas E. Berry" says
>Hey!  They gave me a pysch eval before I was assigned to 
>sniper school! Evidently, I was just sociopathic enough for 
>their purposes...

I think I see a pattern here...

long time Traveller player...
joins the military (some of us wished we did)...
maybe even the Marines, (but Ft. Benning School For Boys is 
OK)
probably infantry...
could be Navy, though...
fiendish affection for small arms...
ends up as a writer (gasp!) or a programmer (have to pay the 
bills) or a lawyer!

It almost looks like we saw our initial career paths in the 
LBBs, and when we mustered out, we went and got "ordinary" 
jobs.

I bet that fighting hole full of cold rainwater I stepped 
into near LZ Aardvark was put there by Doug.  Thanks, Doug.

________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] juries
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEFAEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <3D497ADB.7010302@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Terry Carlino wrote:

> I've got to say that I have very little confidence in the present U.S. legal
> system. I don't mean in a political way. I just don't think that an
> adversarial system is all that good for determining guilt. Amateur juries
> seem to me to be ill equipped to handle many kinds of cases. They let people
> go when there is very solid scientifically based evidence, such as DNA,
> because they don't understand it. They find thieves innocent who steal using
> a ledger rather than a gun because they can't understand the complex
> accounting ruses used to strip value form companies and defraud. They
> release obviously guilty individuals because the defense attorney is a
> better speaker or looks better in his $1000 suit than the prosecutor does in
> her $140 Kmart suit, (or vice versa for public defenders and big city
> political DA's.)

I'll start by mentioning two maxims:

The plural of anecdote is not data.

What you see on TeeVee is not all real.

And if you've never served on a jury, and had to make those decisions, 
you do not know what it's like. To imply that a jury lets someone off 
because they have a defense lawyer in a slick suit, is wrong, and 
moreover, pure demagoguery.

More often than not, the reality is that the lawyer who can afford the 
slick suit is a good lawyer, with lots of resources to devote to the case.

As a whole, the jury system in the US does work pretty damned well.

The entire justice system suffers a bit, because if you have money you 
can afford good lawyers. If you're poor, you get someone overworked who 
will counsel you to plead out rather than take a case to trial, often no 
matter what the actual state of your guilt or innocence.

Yeah, OJ got off.

The truth is, contrary to popular belief, the average American is not as 
dumb as a post, the average jury isn't stupid or incapable of dealing 
with sophisticated evidence.

In the OJ case, the jury obviously bought the defense argument (at least 
to a state of reasonable doubt) that the handling of the evidence, and 
the bias of the investigating officers had been sufficiently tainting 
that they couldn't convict.

Juries are told very carefully what they are and they aren't allowed to 
consider during deliberations, and sometimes that doesn't all make 
sense, particularly to someone, *unlike the jury*, that has been swamped 
with media coverage and rampant punditry on the case.

In the Anderson case, it was clear that something wrong had been done. 
Proving it was entirely another matter, because what had probably been 
done was the destruction of the evidence needed to prove the wrongdoing.

It was not clear, *from the evidence*, that the *people* had done what 
the prosecutors said they did.

Note, in the Anderson case, shady accounting practices did not come into 
the decision at all, merely whether they had conspired to obstruct justice.

No criminal case over *shady accounting* has yet come out of the recent 
scandals. In previous trials, people who committed shady deals *have* 
been convicted: Millken, Keating, our ex-guv J. Thief Slimington. 
(though the latter two got off because of appeals and a friggin' 
presidential pardon, respectively)

But the very nature of the evidence in trials over accounting is 
slipperier than, say, a trial over stolen property.

It's easy to say whether someone did or did not have Mrs. Smiths TV and 
stereo in the back of their car, or that the property was recovered with 
their fingerprints on it.

It's a LOT harder to say whether Mrs. Smith's finance adviser showed bad 
judgement, bad luck or criminal intent in commiting her to ruinous 
transactions.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:18:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:18:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <200208011817.LVR05093@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Hurrel, Brian" says
>"Web gear, canteens, helmets, eyeglasses, magazines, 
>entrenching tools...."

Yes, you can shoot at anything that the enemy soldier has 
signed for.  Make sure you check his forms, and after you 
fire your rounds, have him sign for the ones that hit him.

There have been references to Imperial rules concerning 
warfare - are there really any in canon?  No use of nukes by 
non-Imperial forces?  Meson guns?  No genocide?  Eh?

The line from Apocalypse Now always made sense to me: 
arresting someone for violating the rules of war is like 
handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
In-Reply-To: <200208011810.LVR04270@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B96ECAA0.67370%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 11:10 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> I bet that fighting hole full of cold rainwater I stepped
> into near LZ Aardvark was put there by Doug.  Thanks, Doug.

The wonderful bond of shared experience (misery).  We can all sit down
together, drink beer, and share tales of the fine accommodations of Harmony
Church, the facilities at AO Eagle, the pleasures of Columbus Georgia.
Differentiated only by the uniform we wore, or the color of our boots and
whether we took the SQT or the POIQT.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:24:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:24:35 2002
Subject: [TML] juries
Message-ID: <200208011823.LVR05798@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Bruce Johnson says
<snip good comments about the intractability of determining 
accounting wrongdoing>

Hence the general populations unease with the concept of "no 
controlling authority".

Maybe the concept of men, not so much laws, is not a bad 
one.  Sure, we could say that on Regina, there's no specific 
law against writing your ledgers that way.  On the other 
hand, if news gets out, and there's enough related heat (such 
as massive corporate collapse), the Duke of Regina will be 
sending you a personal invitation to the prison hulk.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:25:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:25:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <200208011817.LVR05093@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020801182452.5599.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:
> 
> The line from Apocalypse Now always made sense to
> me: 
> arresting someone for violating the rules of war is
> like 
> handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500.

Which is what I've always thought about so called
"rules of war".  It makes about as much sense to have
rules when it comes to war as it does to have speed
limits at the Indy 500 (or Daytona us southerners).

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:33:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff D. Greenly)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:33:18 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <sd494643.049@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>

Larsen raises several excellent points. I thought I would chime in,
briefly, because I am of the opinion that Mr. Fly simply doesn't get it
despite what the true warrior types on the TML have been (very
patiently) explaining. TML hasn't been this interesting in a while!

One need only to look at the Battle of the Atlantic to see how much of
an effect esprit de corps and loyalty go towards men willingly going
into grave danger. I may be slightly off on my numbers, but the U-Boat
service saw the highest losses of ANY service branch, across all
nationalities during WW II. Something like 80% of all U-boatmen were KIA
towards the end of the war, with the average life expectancy being a
week. 

Funny how there were more volunteers than the service needed right up
to the end of the war, and there was never a single incidence of mutiny
(although there was ONE incident where a u-boat captain was executed for
cowardice in the face of the enemy. This was based on the testimony of
his crew and his own logs!) The crews KNEW things were rough.There were
a lot more u-boats missing than ones that came back to port, and of the
ones that did come back in, very few had any kills to their credit as
the war dragged on. They knew that the time of the Paukenschlag and the
Gray Wolves were over. But they went for Onkel Karl and they went for
glory, and they went because they were the cream of the crop and they
knew it, and they died in STAGGERING numbers. 

I think that a massed assault by fighters, assault shuttles or other
small craft in conjunction with light and medium ships of the line is a
perfectly viable and certainly historically proven means of depriving
the enemy of his capital ships. All it takes is one hit and you're
halfway there. Stop and think. A big ship, crewed by thousands and
costing hundreds of millions of credits can be taken out of action by a
force of craft costing a tenth and crewed by 1-3 men each. Combine that
fighter attack with coups d'grace administered by a number of cruisers,
destroyers, frigates and so on, and you have a very flexible multi-role
force for a lot less than a fleet full of big ships. There's a reason
the US Navy (as well as most other modern fleets!) is comprised the way
it is. Learn from it.

Jeff
OT3, USN

BTW, I think some of the best Navy chow to be had is at RTC Great
Lakes. You can have as much as you can get down in 5 minutes. I can't
remember tasting anything while I was there, but I got plenty! I also
seem to remember getting charged 6 bucks for 2 haircuts while I was
there, 3 bucks for my web belts and spats (one green belt, one white
belt, one pair white spats) and 85 bucks for my peacoat. I still have
the peacoat. I think I also had to buy a pair of running shoes for 10
bucks, and I only ran in them a few times, in the old blimp hangers. I
remember having to buy a plastic cigarette case, even though we couldn't
smoke. It apparently was for small valuables, but I never used mine. We
also had to buy our Bluejacket Manuals. I still have mine, proudly
sitting on my bookshelf at home. Funny to go back and look at it after
all these years....Ah, well.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Scott Kullberg)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <200208011817.LVR05093@vmms1.verisignmail.com> ("John T.
 Kwon"'s message of "Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:17:04 -0400")
References: <200208011817.LVR05093@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <m2d6t2juj5.fsf@attbi.com>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:

> There have been references to Imperial rules concerning 
> warfare - are there really any in canon?  No use of nukes by 
> non-Imperial forces?  Meson guns?  No genocide?  Eh?
>
> The line from Apocalypse Now always made sense to me: 
> arresting someone for violating the rules of war is like 
> handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500.

As I read the canon, the Imperial Rules of War don't apply to the
Imperium and its peers; they're for Imperial members. Fight clean, and
your little planets can have their little wars. Play dirty, and you'll
have IN dreadnoughts in low orbit and Imperial Marine assault shuttles
on your capital. It works because of the peculiar Traveller convention
that a powerful over-government exists but still allows what we would
call call "civil wars".

There might be 'rules' when the Imps fight the Zhos, but those are
really just customs and just as (un-)enforceable as what we've got now.


-- 
Scott E Kullberg  --><--  sekullbe@attbi.com
 "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands,
 hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -- H. L. Mencken

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <20020801182452.5599.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B96ECE97.67378%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 11:24 AM, Paul Walker at traveller_tv@yahoo.com wrote:

> 
> Which is what I've always thought about so called
> "rules of war".  It makes about as much sense to have
> rules when it comes to war as it does to have speed
> limits at the Indy 500 (or Daytona us southerners).

I'm not sure that this is the same thing, and frankly, war without rules
frightens me.  We get back to barbaric times.  Shooting prisoners of war out
of hand, killing noncombatants, using poison gas, biological warfare, etc.,
etc.

Ultimately, all of these things have a very real toll, particularly on the
combatants themselves. Unless we want to become barbarians ourselves, again.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 12:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 11:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <m2d6t2juj5.fsf@attbi.com>
Message-ID: <B96ECF6B.6737C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 11:36 AM, Scott Kullberg at sekullbe@attbi.com wrote:

> 
> As I read the canon, the Imperial Rules of War don't apply to the
> Imperium and its peers; they're for Imperial members. Fight clean, and
> your little planets can have their little wars. Play dirty, and you'll
> have IN dreadnoughts in low orbit and Imperial Marine assault shuttles
> on your capital. It works because of the peculiar Traveller convention
> that a powerful over-government exists but still allows what we would
> call call "civil wars".
> 
> There might be 'rules' when the Imps fight the Zhos, but those are
> really just customs and just as (un-)enforceable as what we've got now.
> 

Yeah.  The Imperium like to preserve nukes and such for itself, if for no
other reason that to keep member states from getting too big for their
britches.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:03:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:03:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <B96ECE97.67378%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020801190214.8933.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> traveller_tv@yahoo.com wrote:
> > 
> > Which is what I've always thought about so called
> > "rules of war".  It makes about as much sense to
> have
> > rules when it comes to war as it does to have
> speed
> > limits at the Indy 500 (or Daytona us
> southerners).
> 
> I'm not sure that this is the same thing, and
> frankly, war without rules
> frightens me.  We get back to barbaric times. 
> Shooting prisoners of war out
> of hand, killing noncombatants, using poison gas,
> biological warfare, etc.,
> etc.
> 
> Ultimately, all of these things have a very real
> toll, particularly on the
> combatants themselves. Unless we want to become
> barbarians ourselves, again.
> 

Tod,

Actually, I agree with you, but I don't think it is
accurate to call it "rules" any more than the courtesy
between drivers at Indy or Daytona can be called
"speed limits" or "rules" of driving.

We extend POW's and noncombatants a certain amount of
"courtesy" and expect the same from our enemies.  Our
culture (at least for now) calls for this courtesy to
be extended even if it is not returned.  A perfect
example is the war against the terrorist
organizations.  They have no problem killing prisoners
and noncombatants, and yet we still extend the
courtesies mentioned above to them.

Maybe it is pedantic, but calling them rules implies
some sort of implicit wrong in breaking them.  Rather
than a courtesy, something that, in some cases, should
indeed be broken.

So, I guess I misspoke.  I should have said that it
makes about as much sense to have traffic laws at Indy
or Daytona as it does to have "rules" when it comes to
war.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <20020801190214.8933.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B96ED62A.67384%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 12:02 PM, Paul Walker at traveller_tv@yahoo.com wrote:
> 
> So, I guess I misspoke.  I should have said that it
> makes about as much sense to have traffic laws at Indy
> or Daytona as it does to have "rules" when it comes to
> war.
> 

Ah, but there are 'traffic laws' at Indy.  Take, for example, the yellow
flag.  Also, you cannot run down people.  You cannot install machineguns in
your car, dump oil or smoke, etc.

The rules of war are more than just courtesy in that when our own people
break them, we punish them.  Certainly, they are broken.  But we don't say
'That's OK'.  We may say that it is understandable.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:30:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moreton)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:30:22 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <43.f41b3de.2a7a45aa@aol.com>
Message-ID: <026001c23992$31805e60$18130050@amoreton>



> >HMS Glow-worm ramming the Admiral Hipper comes to mind. The destroyer's
>  >mass
>  >was literally the only thing that might hurt the cruiser, and if she
wasn't
>  >hurt then the convoy would be massacred. Her skipper knew his ship would
>  >sink; he knew many (but probably not all) of his crew would die. But the
>  >decision was made in the face of the enemy, for a clear goal - to save
>  >hundreds of helpless merchant seamen. Would the crew have accepted an
>  >Admiralty policy of "we're not giving you torpedoes. You're to close and
>  >ram, then sink"? In desperate times, some people actually would. But,
say,
>  >in 1934? Nope.

Not to disagree with    the point of the comment but some details on the
loss of HMS Glowworm  was not escorting a convoy at the time of the battle
with the Hipper, she had been part of a minelaying sortie off the Norwegian
coast she became seperated from her consorts and came across on of the
Hipper's escrting destroyers. In the prevailing bad weather the Glowworm was
forced into close action with the Hipper, the Hipper attempted to run down
the Glowworm and then the Captain of the Glowworm  Lt Cmdr Gerald G Rooper
deceided to Ram the Hipper he succeeded adn the impact carried away 120 feet
of the hippers side plate and let in 528 tons of water , the Hipper carried
on with a 4 degree list and accomplished her mission. Many of the Glowworms
crew where saved by German vessels not including her captain who drowned
while being rescued , he was postumously awarded the VC.
You may perhaps be confusing the Glowworm with 2 British Armed Merchant
crusiers the Jarvis Bay as the lone escort of a convoy the Jarvis Bay a
converted liner with about 6 obsolete 6 inch guns when the convoy
encountered the Pocket Battleship Admiral Scheer heavily armoured and armed
with 6 11 inch guns . The Jarvis Bay charged the Admiral Scheer drawing the
Fire of the Scheer upon herself allowing the Convoy to scatter to safety
.her Captain E S F Fegan was awarded the VC posthumously.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:32:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:32:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <20020801182452.5599.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020801182452.5599.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <m38z3qs7e0.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:
> 
> Which is what I've always thought about so called "rules of war".
> It makes about as much sense to have rules when it comes to war as
> it does to have speed limits at the Indy 500 (or Daytona us
> southerners).

Not really.  The whole point of a race is to see who can go the
fastest.  But the point of war is _not_ to see who can commit the most
atrocities.  The exact point is a matter of some contention, but I
tend to figure that it has to do with taking and holding territory.
Since someone else is holding and defending it, men are going to die.
But there's no point in being cruel about it.  `If you must kill a
man, there's no harm in being polite to him.'  In much the same way,
if you're going to kill a man, shoot him cleanly; don't leave him
lying in his guts screaming for hours.  Don't gas him, so he doesn't
die but instead leads a long life of pain and misery.  Don't hunt down
and kill his wife and children.  Don't torture him if you capture
him.  In fact, if you capture him he's no longer a threat, so don't
kill him at all.

The rules of war are what prevent a horrendous thing from becoming
even worse.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I owe the government $3400 in taxes.  So I sent them two hammers and a
toilet seat.                                         --Michael McShane

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:35:04 2002
Subject: [TML] juries
In-Reply-To: <3D497ADB.7010302@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEFAEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
 <3D497ADB.7010302@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <m34rees79e.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:
> 
> The truth is, contrary to popular belief, the average American is
> not as dumb as a post, the average jury isn't stupid or incapable of
> dealing with sophisticated evidence.

No, but his IQ is 100, which isn't that much more impressive...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Reading maketh a full man; conference a ready man; and writing an exact
man.                                                            --Bacon

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:43:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:43:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <20020801190214.8933.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020801190214.8933.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <m3y9bqqsbp.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:
> 
> We extend POW's and noncombatants a certain amount of "courtesy" and
> expect the same from our enemies.  Our culture (at least for now)
> calls for this courtesy to be extended even if it is not returned.

IMHO civilian opinion that's foolish.  The deal should be play by our
rules or we play by none.  That is, we'll refrain from using NBC
weapons, we'll take prisoners, we'll treat them right, we'll avoid
hitting civilians for exactly so long as the other side does.  If they
don't, then we don't; instead we run up the black flag and fight
dirty.  It's not as though they'd retaliate by fighting dirty; they
already do.

Note that I am _not_ referring to any current actions, simply to a
theoretical stance.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
His troops would follow him anywhere, but only out of curiosity.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:46:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:46:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <m38z3qs7e0.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <B96EDDFB.6739E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 12:31 PM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> and kill his wife and children.  Don't torture him if you capture
> him.  In fact, if you capture him he's no longer a threat, so don't
> kill him at all.

More than that, if you treat your prisoners well, and the enemy knows it,
they may be more inclined to surrender.  Would the Iraqis have surrendered
in droves if we were shooting them out of hand and putting their heads on
poles?  I don't think so.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Chris Tann)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <20020801190006.19736.20169.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020801194721.65071.qmail@web14504.mail.yahoo.com>

The actual Apocalypse Now quote is 

"Shit...charging a
man with murder in this place was like handing out speeding
tickets in the Indy 500."

I also like 

"They  train young men to drop fire on people. But their commanders 
won't allow them to  write fuck on their airplanes because it's obscene! "


> on 8/1/02 11:24 AM, Paul Walker at traveller_tv@yahoo.com wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Which is what I've always thought about so called
> > "rules of war".  It makes about as much sense to have
> > rules when it comes to war as it does to have speed
> > limits at the Indy 500 (or Daytona us southerners).
> 
> I'm not sure that this is the same thing, and frankly, war without rules
> frightens me.  
> ...

=====
***********************************************************
Chris Tann                           Independent Consultant
chris@christann.com                       Walkabout Designs
phone (408) 205 6793               http://www.christann.com
***********************************************************

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:51:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:51:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <m3y9bqqsbp.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <B96EDF1B.6739F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 12:42 PM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> 
> IMHO civilian opinion that's foolish.  The deal should be play by our
> rules or we play by none.  That is, we'll refrain from using NBC
> weapons, we'll take prisoners, we'll treat them right, we'll avoid
> hitting civilians for exactly so long as the other side does.  If they
> don't, then we don't; instead we run up the black flag and fight
> dirty.  It's not as though they'd retaliate by fighting dirty; they
> already do.
> 
> Note that I am _not_ referring to any current actions, simply to a
> theoretical stance.

There are reasons for 'playing by civilized rules' other than to encourage
the enemy to do so.  We are a civilized people.  Our soldiers come from that
civilized society.  If we 'play dirty', we can cause great harm to our own
soldiers.  You cannot take a civilized person, send him off to do
unspeakable acts, and then expect him to come home and fit well into
civilized society.  You cannot even expect to maintain discipline.  You
cannot let the enemy dictate your behavior in war.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 13:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug  1 12:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <B96ED62A.67384%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020801195839.54151.qmail@web20905.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> Ah, but there are 'traffic laws' at Indy.  Take, for
> example, the yellow
> flag.  Also, you cannot run down people.  You cannot
> install machineguns in
> your car, dump oil or smoke, etc.

Good point.  The analogy des fall apart after a bit. 
Mainly because there is (and should be) a governing
authority over the teams/participants in the Indy 500.

The obvious ObTrav here is the Imperial Rules of War.
(IIRC, they were set down in some part first in MT)
 
> The rules of war are more than just courtesy in that
> when our own people
> break them, we punish them.  Certainly, they are
> broken.  But we don't say
> 'That's OK'.  We may say that it is understandable.

I wasn't aware that we police ourselves.  If we do,
then I have no objections to the use of the terms
rules.  Rules, to me, implies that somewhere, somehow
there is someone to answer to if you break them.

I see your point, and if we police ourselves, then
certainly I agree.  Unfortunately, my military
experience outside of the TML is sparse indeed.

ObTrav:  Are there any "Rules" of war between the 3I
and Zho's?  On either side, and who enforces them?

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 14:01:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  1 13:01:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <200208012000.LVV03238@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>There are reasons for 'playing by civilized rules' other 
>than to encourage the enemy to do so.  We are a civilized 
>people.  Our soldiers come from that civilized society.  If 
>we 'play dirty', we can cause great harm to our own
>soldiers.  You cannot take a civilized person, send him off 
>to do unspeakable acts, and then expect him to come home and 
>fit well into civilized society.  You cannot even expect to 
>maintain discipline.  You cannot let the enemy dictate your 
>behavior in war.

While I would shoot, say, a fellow soldier who engaged in an 
atrocity such as rape or torture, it is my belief that our 
soldiers should be allowed to write whatever strikes their 
fancy on the sides on bombs.  If someone comes home and his 
only aftereffect from the "war" is spontaneous graffiti, 
that's ok by me.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 14:04:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff D. Greenly)
Date: Thu Aug  1 13:04:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
Message-ID: <sd495bcc.012@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>

Would a world that has 80% of its surface covered by water, a dense
nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, and one moon that is large enough to exert a
tidal effect tend to be more or less climatically active? Assume
moderate (terran-normal) vulcanism and a fairly non-polluting early TL
aqua/agricultural society. Also assume standard polar ice caps and
rotation around 20 deg. off the plane of the ecliptic. I'll welcome any
and all comments...

Jeff

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 14:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug  1 13:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <B96EDF1B.6739F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020801200953.4391.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> ruhl@4dv.net wrote:
> > 
> > IMHO civilian opinion that's foolish.  The deal
> should be play by our
> > rules or we play by none.  That is, we'll refrain
> from using NBC
> > weapons, we'll take prisoners, we'll treat them
> right, we'll avoid
> > hitting civilians for exactly so long as the other
> side does.  If they
> > don't, then we don't; instead we run up the black
> flag and fight
> > dirty.  It's not as though they'd retaliate by
> fighting dirty; they
> > already do.
> > 
> > Note that I am _not_ referring to any current
> actions, simply to a
> > theoretical stance.
> 
> There are reasons for 'playing by civilized rules'
> other than to encourage
> the enemy to do so.  We are a civilized people.  Our
> soldiers come from that
> civilized society.  If we 'play dirty', we can cause
> great harm to our own
> soldiers.  You cannot take a civilized person, send
> him off to do
> unspeakable acts, and then expect him to come home
> and fit well into
> civilized society.  You cannot even expect to
> maintain discipline.  You
> cannot let the enemy dictate your behavior in war.
> 

I think this is a difficult issue.  I can see both
sides.  I agree with Tod to a certain extent, but I
think at issue is the extent of the attrocities. 
Certainly the pilots that dropped the nuke's in Japan
weren't unable to maintain their discipline.  I do
think they fit into civilized society afterwards.  Yet
they perpetrated attrocities against civillians as
well as the enemy military.

You see, on the one hand, I don't think any of us
would agree that blanket killing of women and children
is acceptable regardless of who they are.  Yet, in
some cases, we did condone the use of nukes that
killed women and children.

But again, the climate of our country (even our world)
has changed since then.  I doubt there would have come
a time when there was condoned use of nukes against
Afganistan.  Maybe we would use them against Iraq. 
The biggest difference is what is necessary.  In WWII,
it was thought necessary to end the war quickly, hence
the use of nukes was condoned.  Now, despite our
President's use of the "Axis" term, there aren't any
enemies that rival THE Axis threat (at least not yet
anyway).


Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 14:15:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 13:15:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
Message-ID: <ba.29ce83ea.2a7af085@aol.com>

In a message dated 01/08/02 03:47:59 GMT Daylight Time, jrholmes@wi.rr.com 
writes:


Don't be so certain to dismiss Oliver Stone.  After all, he was the
person who wrote Conan the Barbarian for John Milius to direct.  While
a daren't minimize what Milius brought to the story in his direction,
Stone still did a fair job of the near impossible task of telling the
origin story plus telling a classic style adventure.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Stone's script isn't the one that was filmed. His was a far more ambitious 
project involving Conan descending into hell. I believe Milius retained 
chunks of dialogue but I'm not sure how much of Stone's work survived.

There's a good documentary on the Conan DVD but it's a while since I've seen 
it and my memory can be a bit shaky.

Charles

All of us a creatures of a day; the rememberer and the remembered alike

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 14:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 13:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <20020801195839.54151.qmail@web20905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B96EE599.67422%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 12:58 PM, Paul Walker at traveller_tv@yahoo.com wrote:
> 
> ObTrav:  Are there any "Rules" of war between the 3I
> and Zho's?  On either side, and who enforces them?
> 

Rules only in the sense of mutually agreed upon ones (treaties) which govern
the conduct of war.  Typically, these are mutually beneficial, such as those
rules governing the treatment of prisoners, noncombatant, etc.  That is not
to say that each side may have it's rules as well, for no other reason than
"we don't do that sort of thing in the Imperial Army".

I suspect that there is a treaty or at least a tacit understanding that one
does not nuke the other's planet into glass, at least where large civilian
populations are involved.  Possibly merely when a planet is readily
habitable.  Unrestrained nuclear war is bound to have very unpleasant and
lasting consequences.  And canon does not indicate a large number of
destroyed words along either the Zhodani or Solomani borders of the
Imperium.

Are there prisoner exchanges?  Probably.  These were a feature of the 18th
and 19th century European wars and this time period certainly influenced the
designer of our Olde Game.  Perhaps captured officers (or at least
gentlebeings) are even given their parole.

The whole model of interstellar war seems to be more based on the model of
the late 16th early 17th century, where only small parts of the
nation-states actively participated in the war, the majority of the
population went about their business and provinces and such were traded back
and forth.  The one notable exception seems to be the Solomani Rim war,
where ideology and the stability of the Imperium itself played a major
factor, and by all accounts, this was a very nasty war.  One that ended
without a formal armistice, but only an uneasy cessation of hostilities.

I expect that in the rim war, there were probably more atrocities,
particularly given the Solomani attitude about non-Solomani.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 14:20:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 13:20:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <200208012000.LVV03238@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B96EE5E2.67423%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 1:00 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> While I would shoot, say, a fellow soldier who engaged in an
> atrocity such as rape or torture, it is my belief that our
> soldiers should be allowed to write whatever strikes their
> fancy on the sides on bombs.  If someone comes home and his
> only aftereffect from the "war" is spontaneous graffiti,
> that's ok by me.

Agreed.  I didn't mean to suggest that this be taken to ridiculous extremes.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 14:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 13:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <20020801200953.4391.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B96EE955.67436%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 1:09 PM, Paul Walker at traveller_tv@yahoo.com wrote:

> 
> I think this is a difficult issue.  I can see both
> sides.  I agree with Tod to a certain extent, but I
> think at issue is the extent of the attrocities.
> Certainly the pilots that dropped the nuke's in Japan
> weren't unable to maintain their discipline.  I do
> think they fit into civilized society afterwards.  Yet
> they perpetrated attrocities against civillians as
> well as the enemy military.

I think this is a bad example (the Nuke bombing in WWII) since they had be
presaged by the mass bombing of cities with conventional bombs.  I
retrospect, many see mass bombings of civilians as atrocities, but to the
pilots of the B-29s over Hiroshi and Nagasaki dropping their nukes was just
another bombing raid, only with better bombs.

Personally, I don't see the bombing of Hiroshima an Nagasaki a any different
than the fire bombing of Dresden, or the random bombing of English cities by
the Germans.

Our sensibilities have changed.  Would mass bombing of Baghdad have been
acceptable to modern westerners?  Doubtful. Notice how the military went to
great pains to show that it was military targets that were being bombed.
WWII planners showed no such concern.  People like 'Bomber' Harris actively
defended the mass bombing of non-combatant civilians.
> 
> You see, on the one hand, I don't think any of us
> would agree that blanket killing of women and children
> is acceptable regardless of who they are.  Yet, in
> some cases, we did condone the use of nukes that
> killed women and children.

See above.  We condoned the mass killing of women and children with large
scale conventional bombs as well.
> 
> But again, the climate of our country (even our world)
> has changed since then.  I doubt there would have come
> a time when there was condoned use of nukes against
> Afganistan.  Maybe we would use them against Iraq.
> The biggest difference is what is necessary.  In WWII,
> it was thought necessary to end the war quickly, hence
> the use of nukes was condoned.  Now, despite our
> President's use of the "Axis" term, there aren't any
> enemies that rival THE Axis threat (at least not yet
> anyway).

I think it is more than just necessity.  It is a shrinking of our world, and
a change in attitude that says that even out enemies lives have a certain
value.  Ever watched a WWII Bugs Bunny cartoon.  The Germans, and
particularly the Japanese were horribly dehumanized.  We made our enemies
into monsters so then it was OK to exterminate them.

It's certainly not a new attitude. Look at Europeans attitudes of Africans
during the 19th century (white man's burden), or white Americans' vision of
blacks in our own country during the same period.

Nowadays, our sensibilities have change so dramatically that we worry about
whether we are mistreating animals.  During the gulf war there was even
concern about what impact military operations would have on the delicate
desert environment!
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 14:43:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Aug  1 13:43:22 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CDE@USCHM203>

"No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy."

I'm paraphrasing, and can't remember who said this. Maybe Clausewitz(SP?).

The way tactics and counter-tactics evolve, often on the fly, it seems that
in the "fighter swarm" case, you might get away with it once or twice, and
then capital ships would either add a swarm of escorts or a phalanx of point
defense weapons.
Traveller is a bit more static than our world when it comes to technology,
but military technology has been rapidly changing only for the last few
centuries. Earlier on there weren't many advances, but even though change
was slow, warfare has always evolved to meet each new "surefire tactic",
whether that change took a century or a month.
The point being, few "standard tactics", beyond "fix and flank", are going
to last long.
If I'm not mistaken, just about every armed force in WWII was constantly
evolving new tactics for new situations. 
Simply put:

Captain: Okay, this is how we did it yesterday, but this is what we're going
to do today.

The best example I can think of is the Normandy hedgerows. The US had
absolutely no plans whatsoever to take these formidable defensive positions
into account. They had simply been ignored in all planning.
Within weeks they had not only developed tactics to clear the hedgerows, but
had improvised existing equipment, jerry-rigged tanks with makeshift
"dozer-mount" hedgecutters, and directly implemented the new tactics in the
field.
No think-tanks. No research at the Aberdeen proving grounds. No statistics
and exhaustive analysis. They just thought it up and did it and it happened
to work.

As many of the posts have shown, there are so many variables in combat that
it is impossible to apply any neat categorization or standardization of
tactics. Warfare abounds with happy accidents, and what works today might be
disastrous tomorrow (and vice/versa).
I think Patton said(paraphrasing and probably naming the wrong source again)
"A mediocre plan executed immediately is better than a briliant plan
executed later."
Hit hard, hit first, and where they least expect it, and you can make up for
a lot of doctrinal weaknesses.
On the other hand, if you're talking about a set piece slugathon between
comarable forces, then it comes down to sheer mass, attrition, and whoever's
left when the dust clears.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 14:49:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 13:49:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <B96EE599.67422%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B96EE599.67422%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m3sn1yqp9b.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
>
> Perhaps captured officers (or at least gentlebeings) are even given
> their parole.

How exactly does this work?  Does one promise not to fight against
one's captor ever again, or simply for a time period, or until the end
of the current engagement, or until one has journeyed back home,
or...?  I've considered it pretty rotten that US soldiers are not
allowed to give their parole and get back home, but perhaps that's
just me.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I don't want to achieve immortality through my work.  I want to achieve
it by not dying.                                          --Woody Allen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 15:03:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 14:03:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <m3sn1yqp9b.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <B96EEFF4.6744B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 1:48 PM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> How exactly does this work?  Does one promise not to fight against
> one's captor ever again, or simply for a time period, or until the end
> of the current engagement, or until one has journeyed back home,
> or...?  I've considered it pretty rotten that US soldiers are not
> allowed to give their parole and get back home, but perhaps that's
> just me.

I'm not sure.  Naturally, it will depend on ones opponent.  Do the Joes have
a class with the same sense of honor as the Imperial aristocracy?  Perhaps
Imperial nobility and Zhodani adepts share some common standards of honor
and paroles are granted for the duration of hostilites.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 15:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Aug  1 14:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Character Conversions
Message-ID: <Springmail.0994.1028235993.0.26126500@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>

Paul Walker asked:
> 
> Has anyone ever come up with a good character
> conversion system?  I mean one that allows for
> conversion to CT, MT, TNE, T4, GT, and T20.
> 
> I know that some of these are very similar (MT
> & T4),
> but what about the others?

Some of the systems and skill sets are so different, I'm not sure if they can
all be consolidated. I've just finished converting a Zho generated from the CT
Zho supplement into GT and he's practically god-like (rolled incredibly well
back in '87 for psionics).

The GT conversion process, IMO, is overly generous to highly experienced
CT/TNE characters with upper-end stats.

Then again, I've played this guy through 5 long-term campaigns. Great for solo
runs but a bit overpowering with other, more youthful characters.

David Smart

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 15:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Thu Aug  1 14:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <3D480612.20345.F70592@localhost>
References: <3D46C8CE.8734.1C2B394@localhost> <3D480612.20345.F70592@localhost>
Message-ID: <02073117152800.00606@linux>

> That could be a bit tricky, considering that HG has no conversions for
> volume to mass. Using those from MT or FF&S seems a little pointless as
> they use different assumptions. The real difference would be that heavy
> armour would be less attractive, especially at lower TLs.

	Exactly.. which means that specialized ships ala battlecruisers (hms hood)
and fighter carriers could be viable and even cost effective. Given that 
there is never enough power or thrust....one must strike a balance to use 
what you have to be efficient. 
	I have to admit that I don't use high guard anymore (I am returning to 
gaming after a 15 year absence). I found a rule set I like with Bruce 
Macintosh's military combat system. I think it is better than hg 2nd ed. 
	Sorry if I came across as argumentive. With so many differrent rule sets
(ct/mt/tne/t4/gurps/t5/t20...etc.), I guess that the game of traveller is 
more a matter of background assumptions than a set of rules.And everybody has 
different ideas of how the universe should look and act.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 15:11:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Thu Aug  1 14:11:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
In-Reply-To: <20020801123223.5AA10451A@mo130uhou.palm.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0208011409330.15910-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>

On Thu, 1 Aug 2002, Mark Urbin wrote:

> Rob Davenport <rgd@infinet.com> wrote:
> >	Ed Wood's "Starship Troopers"
>
> Kenji Schwartz gave a good rant compairing ST to an Ed Wood movie.
> You can find it on my SciFi sig quote page.

Found it:

"IMHO, if we resurrected Ed Wood, and gave him the same budget to do Plan
9 From Outer Space as Verhoeven had to do Starship Troopers, I think we'd
have a contender on our hands. The eye candy would likely be just as good,
and the story about on a par." -- Kenji Schwarz on the Traveller Mailing
List.

I don't think he's that far off the mark.  :)

Rob




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 15:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu Aug  1 14:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <B96EE599.67422%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020801211106.5B7CE279A0@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/01/02 at 01:18 PM,  Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
said:

>on 8/1/02 12:58 PM, Paul Walker at traveller_tv@yahoo.com wrote: > 
>> ObTrav:  Are there any "Rules" of war between the 3I
>> and Zho's?  On either side, and who enforces them?
>> 

>Rules only in the sense of mutually agreed upon ones (treaties) which
>govern the conduct of war.  Typically, these are mutually beneficial,
>such as those rules governing the treatment of prisoners,
>noncombatant, etc.  That is not to say that each side may have it's
>rules as well, for no other reason than "we don't do that sort of
>thing in the Imperial Army".

IMTU...

The Imperium as set up "Rules of War" that apply to members of the
Imperium, and they enforce them, as they see fit, with Imperial
forces. Because the Imperium is ruled by men, not by laws, the Rules
of War are also whatever the men in charge say they are, but there are
a number of customary rules that the Gentlemen of the Imperium
generally subscribe to: No weapons of mass destruction (nukes,
biologicals, near-c rocks, etc), no genocide, limits on valid targets,
etc. 

When the Imperium deals with outsiders, all bets
are...potentially...off. However, the nobles of the Imperium are loath
to abandon their own rules even then, and generally won't unless the
other side does first. If, for example, an opponent doesn't engage in
slagged planet war against the Imperium, then neither does the
Imperium. Over time these conventions evolve into "unwritten rules"
between opponents, and as long as the cultures remain the same those
unwritten rules ("Dropping a rock on them just isn't cricket, old
boy!") will remain in effect.

What these unwritten rules are is up to you, but personally, I use
17th and 18th European rules concerning ransoms, hostages, pledges,
prisoner exchanges, not attacking non-combatants, fighting away from
civilian areas. and so on. Civilizated states abide by them,
barbarians don't.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 15:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Thu Aug  1 14:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <158.11a2925f.2a77b127@aol.com>
References: <158.11a2925f.2a77b127@aol.com>
Message-ID: <02073100275101.01008@linux>

On Tuesday 30 July 2002 05:06 am, you wrote:
> >This sounds like comparing apples and oranges........
>
> well yes, that was my whole point.  optimization can be had in the real
> (our) world, but in the traveller universe there's not much optimization to
> be had.
>
> >base acceleration and agility on displacement, NOT mass. Massive objects
> >(heavy-armor) will be slower and more sluggish unless equipped with
> >big-thrust engines, which means more fuel < more mass again > .
> > Optimization in this case counts.
>
> I completely agree.  but since traveller doesn't operate this way, now we
> are _really_ talking apples and oranges, and have changed the subject as
> well from traveller ship optimization to house rules.  in traveller, there
> are no optimization opportunities here.

	Then I humbly suggest that the rules for realistic thrusters ala 'hard 
times' or FF&S1 be followed in order for the Traveller universe to more 
closely mimic what we observe in the Real World tm. However I fully concede 
to you as long as ct or high guard is used.

> >Remember, military
> >spending is a hole that does not advance a world's economic growth, so it
> >must be kept to a minimum. Optimization Counts.
>
> ah yes, military spending.  but have you noticed that money is not at all
> the limiting factor in naval construction?  and even if it were, it's not
> the factor you make it out to be.  in the united states today, 250 million
> citizens contribute $300 billion or so annually in defense spending --
> that's $1200 from each man, woman, child, and illegal alien.  trillion
> credit squadron states that each imperial citizen contributes an average of
> 500Cr towards their navy -- I don't think that that is at all unreasonable,
> especially given that their military is primarily naval.  if anything it's
> too low, but it's still enough to allow the spinward marches to pay for
> about 2500 200kton battleships.  that's a lot of hardware, enough to put,
> what, ten battleships in each and every imperial spinward marches system. 
> what significant optimization can be had here?  there's some, but not much.

 hmmm... I must examine this .... after applying exchange rates and figuring 
the costs of support facilities, supplies and auxiliaries ( not to mention 
graft and 400$ hammers)

> >Also by using 'realistic'
> >thrust agents, fuel use becomes a major factor in fleet actions,
>
> as an aside, yeah, I suppose so.  but I subscribe completely to gary
> gygax's idea:  "More 'realistic' combat systems could certainly have been
> included here, but they have no real part in a game for a group of players
> having an exciting adventure."


Here is the schwerpunkt. Do people play traveller as a wargame...or do they 
play traveller as a RPG.?  How wonderful that there exists a game that can do 
both well.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 15:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Aug  1 14:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CE0@USCHM203>

"John T. Kwon" wrote:

>I think I see a pattern here...

>long time Traveller player...
>joins the military (some of us wished we did)...
>maybe even the Marines, (but Ft. Benning School For Boys is 
>OK)
>probably infantry...
>could be Navy, though...
>fiendish affection for small arms...
>ends up as a writer (gasp!) or a programmer (have to pay the 
>bills) or a lawyer!

>It almost looks like we saw our initial career paths in the 
>LBBs, and when we mustered out, we went and got "ordinary" 
>jobs.

LOL. It certainly crossed my mind. Oddly enough, I almost never played a
Marine character when I was younger. Had my heart set on West Point, but
didn't have the grades.

After "mustering out", I spent alot of time doing the usual PC thing,
hanging around in pubs looking for something exciting to do.

SPOILER ALERT
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Unfortunately, though I met many fascinating (and in some cases possibly
alien) characters, I was never asked to rescue a senator from an Imperial
prison hulk, reunite a Chirper with his siblings, discover a secret Zhodani
base, lead a trade mission to uncharted territory, investigate a
megacorporation, or run into "Grandfather". (actually, I think I might have
seen him after a particularly long bout of controlled substance indulgence
in New York --- might have just been a stone gargoyle on 3rd Avenue though).

The closest thing I ever did that could actually be considered "adventuring"
was driving a cab while in college. I'd rather be nosing around pyramids on
Yorbund than do THAT for a living again. Statistically, you'd be safer as an
Army Ranger.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 15:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Aug  1 14:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <sd494643.049@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
References: <sd494643.049@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
Message-ID: <20020802075436.A11303@freeman.little-possums.net>

Jeff D. Greenly wrote:
> I thought I would chime in, briefly, because I am of the opinion
> that Mr. Fly simply doesn't get it despite what the true warrior
> types on the TML have been (very patiently) explaining. TML hasn't
> been this interesting in a while!

In my estimation, the signal-to-noise ratio took an extreme dive since
Mr. Fly started posting :/


> I think that a massed assault by fighters, assault shuttles or other
> small craft in conjunction with light and medium ships of the line is a
> perfectly viable and certainly historically proven means of depriving
> the enemy of his capital ships.

I think I can sum up the counterargument: N3V3R H@PP3N!!1!

Besides, who is more suicidal in entering such a battle: the fighter
crew, some of whom will die in achieving victory; or the capital ship
crew, *all* of whom will die *pointlessly*?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <B96EEFF4.6744B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B96EEFF4.6744B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m3d6t2qlgr.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> 
> > How exactly does this work?  Does one promise not to fight against
> > one's captor ever again, or simply for a time period, or until the
> > end of the current engagement, or until one has journeyed back
> > home, or...?  I've considered it pretty rotten that US soldiers
> > are not allowed to give their parole and get back home, but
> > perhaps that's just me.
> 
> I'm not sure.  Naturally, it will depend on ones opponent.  Do the
> Joes have a class with the same sense of honor as the Imperial
> aristocracy?  Perhaps Imperial nobility and Zhodani adepts share
> some common standards of honor and paroles are granted for the
> duration of hostilites.

How did it work historically?  What forms of parole were granted?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
So Microsoft's invented the ASCII equivalent to ugly ink spots that
appear on your letter when your pen is malfunctioning.
        --Greg Andrews, about Microsoft's way to encode apostrophes

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Who Should Have Directed Starship Troopers?
References: <200208010008.LUH03387@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D49B311.B90AA08@mindspring.com>

"John T. Kwon" wrote:
> 
> Yes, I'm sure now it should have been John Waters.
> 
> And Divine should have played Sergeant Zim...
> ________________
> "I am Weasel!"
>
You're scaring me John.


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Why keep on enacting laws when we already have more than we can break.          
                             -Unknown

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:26:02 2002
Subject: Common TL (was Re: [TML] sword vs shotgun)
References: <6f.2b5bca38.2a79e68c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D49B516.D6ED825@mindspring.com>

GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Rupert Boleyn writes:
> 
> >Bear in mind that when CT was written anything over about TL12 was
> >pretty uncommon.
> 
> And should still be, frankly. One of MTs mistakes (laid firmly at the feet of
> DGP) was that suddenly everyone was using TL15 equipment, flying TL15
> starships, and eating TL15 food. And shopping at 'G'.
> 
> Now I realize that a number of the TL15 worlds are true powerhouses of
> production, but asking Glisten to keep half the Marches in gadgets is asking
> a bit much of the (already much abused) economic model...
> 
> GC
> 

Glisten keeps Glisten subsector and portions of the Trojan Reach sector in TL 15 gadgets. Soon they
will be keeping Forine/District 268 in TL 15 missiles ;p

-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Why keep on enacting laws when we already have more than we can break.          
                             -Unknown

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:27:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:27:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <memo.528804@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <m3d6t2qlgr.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
> How did it work historically?  What forms of parole were granted?

The whole thing worked on the principle of 'an officer and a gentleman' 
and the fact that honour was paramount and no gentleman would break his 
word.

Various levels of parole could be granted. An officer might give his 
parole not to escape, and be permitted to wander freely, but within 
bounds, around the place he was being held. He usually had to be back by 
nightfall, or a set time, and sleep in the premises provided. He might be 
limited to a castle, or to the surrounding village, or whatever. He might 
even be permitted to go horseback riding, perhaps with an escort.

Sometimes officers were permitted to return home, having given their 
parole not to bear arms against their captors. This might be conditional, 
in that once an officer of equivalent rank had been sent back the other 
way, he would be free to enter the fray again. Basically a prisoner 
exchange, only one would be allowed to go home in advance on the 
understanding that he wouldn't fight until the exchange had been 
completed.

It was always a personal matter, not one of policy. If you came home 'on 
parole' it was up to you to inform your superiors that you were not 
available to fight until the terms of your parole had been met.

There's a fine fictional example in one of the Hornblower novels. 
Hornblower, who'd been captured by the Spanish, had given his parole and 
was permitted to wander the village in which he was being held. One day he 
was on a nearby headland and spotted some fishermen in difficulties in 
stormy seas. He was allowed to take a boat out and rescue them, but 
conditions were such that the whole party were swept out to sea - where 
they were picked up by an English warship. The captain was all for 
welcoming him back with open arms (and locking up the French seamen), but 
Hornblower not only insisted that, as civilian fishermen, they should be 
let loose, he also demanded to go back too, so as to keep his given word 
not to attempt to escape from the village.

Other ranks (enlisted personnel), not being 'gentlemen,' could not give 
parole, so just got locked up!

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20020731221815.00a378c0@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <3D49B623.C79BF0B5@mindspring.com>

Hal wrote:
> 
> Another thing to consider?
> 
> When you are in a war against an enemy you and your compatriots HATE with a
> consuming passion - you may find that the problem isn't in getting your
> fighter crews to go out against your enemy - but in keeping them from being
> TOO aggressive.
> 
> One other thing that is often overlooked here when it comes to psychology
> of war?  Being in a fighter platform instead of a ship's laser power plant
> generator room - permits the fighter pilot to feel that his actions *DO*
> count in the battle.
> 
> A final comment on this before I have to go to work:
> 
> If you have a large enough pool of pilots for use in the battles ahead, and
> it has become naval doctrine to use fighters in a swarm mode - naval
> trainers will be indoctrinating their fighter pilots to accept the fact
> that 100 fighters lives in exchange for 1,000 enemy lives is a fair
> trade.  It takes months to build a hull of note.  It takes weeks to build a
> fighter platform.  There are More Class B starports able to churn out
> fighters than there are class A starports churning out capital ships.  I
> really think someone should take the time and effort to build up a
> "fictional" sector for use in a massive campaign over the net...  Hmmmm -
> HIGH GUARD and TCS rules anyone? ;)
> 
>               Hal
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Why fictional? How about the FFW encompassing all of the marches. 
-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Why keep on enacting laws when we already have more than we can break.          
                             -Unknown

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <20020801182128.9068d26d087748de93de63949d36b6f5.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>One need only to look at the Battle of the Atlantic to see how much of
>an effect esprit de corps and loyalty go towards men willingly going
>into grave danger. I may be slightly off on my numbers, but the U-Boat
>service saw the highest losses of ANY service branch, across all
>nationalities during WW II. Something like 80% of all U-boatmen were KIA
>towards the end of the war, with the average life expectancy being a
>week. 

Toward the end, yes.  But remember, the life expectancy was changing
constantly through-out the war.  An aggressive U-Boat skipper would almost
assuredly die on his first patrol in 1945 while a similar man in 1940 would
have racked-up patrols and kills for close to a year without much risk.

>Funny how there were more volunteers than the service needed right up
>to the end of the war, and there was never a single incidence of mutiny
>(although there was ONE incident where a u-boat captain was executed for
>cowardice in the face of the enemy. This was based on the testimony of
>his crew and his own logs!) The crews KNEW things were rough.There were
>a lot more u-boats missing than ones that came back to port, and of the
>ones that did come back in, very few had any kills to their credit as
>the war dragged on. They knew that the time of the Paukenschlag and the
>Gray Wolves were over. But they went for Onkel Karl and they went for
>glory, and they went because they were the cream of the crop and they
>knew it, and they died in STAGGERING numbers. 

I think you are overestimating how much the crewmembers knew at the time.  A
lot of U-Boats would be missing from the subpens at Brest or Lorient when a
sub got back, but that could be explain by saying the ships were on patrol.
They probably did know a lot more about losses then Allied submariners,
because the U-Boats were too chatty on the radios for their own good (A
fatal weakness for Karl Donitz's force even without Ultra.  At least one
U-Boat was sunk within an hour of radioing in to U-Boat HQ, after being
detected by radio direction finders.  The ironic part of the saga was the
sub's message.).

Also, officers for the U-Boat fleet often were not volunteers, or were not
given the chance to - Officers of the Kriegsmarine were EXPECTED to go to
whatever duty station they were assigned without comment.  When Martin
Middlebrook interviewed some veterans for his book _Convoy_, the U-Boat
officers often were surprised at the question of volunteering.  Some of the
crewmembers of the U-Boats also seemed to have "volunteered" under less then
voluntary circumstances

>I think that a massed assault by fighters, assault shuttles or other
>small craft in conjunction with light and medium ships of the line is a
>perfectly viable and certainly historically proven means of depriving
>the enemy of his capital ships. All it takes is one hit and you're
>halfway there. Stop and think. A big ship, crewed by thousands and
>costing hundreds of millions of credits can be taken out of action by a
>force of craft costing a tenth and crewed by 1-3 men each. Combine that
>fighter attack with coups d'grace administered by a number of cruisers,
>destroyers, frigates and so on, and you have a very flexible multi-role
>force for a lot less than a fleet full of big ships. There's a reason
>the US Navy (as well as most other modern fleets!) is comprised the way
>it is. Learn from it.

"Most"?  I would be careful about that.

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

 My Sale List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
 My Want List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:31:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:31:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <20020801182132.8dc5803e76f94f1f98d7b72b3352174c.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>> >The USN's Devastators had been in service ~7 years and was an 
>> obselescent 
>> >design too, although not as bad as the Swordfish(1).
>> 
>> The Swordfish was not bad....And for the role it was intended, it was
>> probably better then the TBD!  Which is a sad commentary on US naval
>> aviation more then anything else.
>
>OTOH, the Stringbag was never sent into battle against carrier-based 
>fighters.  The TBD pilots at Midway, meanwhile, had to try to survive 
>without fighter cover against the A6M Zero.  Hardly a fair contest (of 
>course, any military leader who tries to fight war _fairly_ isn't doing 
>the job correctly).

True.  The Japanese pilots would have still mopped the floor with any
torpedo bombers.  Then again, the Stringbag did not have to serve in the
Pacific.  Good thing too, since the Japanese managed to massacre the torpedo
bombers the British DID have in the early days of the Pacific War
(Wildebeasts, IIRC.).

FYI, the Brewster Buffalo has such a bad reputation because of its poor
combat performance against the Japanese.  Yet we are talking about the same
fighter that managed to beat the Grummen Wildcat in the US Navy's
competition for a carrier fighter just before World War 2.  If Brewster had
not proven so inept in actually building and upgrading the fighter, then we
would be seeing Buffalos tangling with Zeros at Midway....

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

 My Sale List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
 My Want List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <76.201d4ff6.2a7b1285@aol.com>

 >>  >They might want more choices besides Dreadnaughts.
 >>
 >> Show me your choices.  I'd love to see 'em.
 >
 >Low-end ships so you can do all your jobs within your budget maybe?

I understand that, but there's the question of what your enemy is doing.  
Consider the extreams -- if your goal is to win engagements then you'll want 
a few expensive capital ships, but if you want to "do all the jobs" then 
you'll want a herd of warm bodies (as it were).  Between the extreams is the 
balance -- but where is it?  I think it's way over in the "win engagements" 
side.  If you "cover all the bases" with warm bodies but have to flee every 
time the heavyweight enemy shows up then what good is that?  There is no 
substitute for victory, and to get that victory you need the heavyweights and 
you need more of them than your enemy.

 >Patrol ships and tankers and whatever you plan to escort the talkers with.

If by patrol you mean scouts, then yes.  But if you mean general policing 
then I'd think that would be a local police matter and not a fleet matter.  
If I'm an admiral at Jewell looking at 1000 Zhodie capital ship in Cronor, 
and I hear about some pirates at Enope, I'd have to set priorities and ask 
Wochiers to deal with it.  Since imminent war is not a constant threat, if 
some patrols were desperately needed by local governments then I'd send some 
screening vessels to deal with the problem and then return.

As for tankers (?), if I had any I'd just keep them with the fleet.

>The USN,
>for example, has other ships than carriers or attack subs (whichever you
>consider to be the capital ship). Most navies have some high-end combat
>ships and low-end workhorses.

That's because of real-world issues regarding weapon load capacities, size vs 
speed, air / surface / sub environment requirements, hull-shape requirements, 
and dozens of other factors, make such specialization necessary and 
effective.  These issues don't transfer well to a Traveller universe.  In 
Traveller everyone can go just as fast as the next guy, they all can carry 
the same weapons, there's no limitation on size or hull configuration, and so 
on.  Would you put an Ageis system on a cargo ship?  You can do it in 
Traveller, and it works.  Would you put ten inch armor on a destroyer?  You 
can do it in Traveller, and it works.  Effective combat ships will all tend 
towards the same hull/weapons/defenses configuration, and specialization will 
become mere limitation.

My Spinward Marches Colonial Fleet has supply vessels, hospital ships, 
minesweepers, and other stuff in addition to its capital vessels.  But they 
are all sideshows, and minor elements of the fleet -- maybe 5% of the total 
tonnage.  I intend to win the major engagements first -- I'll clean up any 
leftover messes after I win.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <bf.241eecb7.2a7a4368@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D49BA6B.37759812@mindspring.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> 
>  >>asking hundreds of them at a time to give up their lives all
>  >>at once, just to make a tactic work, in one segment of a
>  >>single battle, is not an insignificant outlay for THEM.
>  >>(push button) "go do this, guys."  (lights
>  >>flash) "ok."  it doesn't work that way.
>  >
>  >See the battle of Midway.  The low level torpedo attack
>  >planes that sacrificed themselves to Japanese anti-aircraft
>  >fire so that the dive bombers would have a chance.
> 
> Yes, with a huge Japanese fleet threatening their homeland and only them
> standing between the yellow peril and their families.  It was not, however, a
> standard tactic, employed "because they'll tolerate it".

Read Miracle at Midway a few years back. IIRC the torpedo planes were the ones EXPECTED to take out
the jap ships. But communication, navigation and planning errors resulted in the attacks being
uncoordinated and the TBY's? wound up being slaughtered by the jap CAP and the ships. When the dive
bombers showed up there were no planes in a position to oppose their attack.


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Why keep on enacting laws when we already have more than we can break.          
                             -Unknown

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMEKKCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com>
>
>yes!  Yes!  YESSSS!!!!!
>
>I have arrived.  I have my first keyboard kill.  And
>from Glenn, too, an honored old timer and regular.
>
>I think I'll print it out on paper suitable for framing.

Don't get cocky, kid.  We'll teach ya the secret handshake and stuff at
BayCon or if ya come down ta San Jose on a game day.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:55:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:55:33 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Acceptable losses
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEKKCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
>
>No, you don't understand.  Every unit must have a Texan (known as
>Tex), a Brooklyner, a racist Southerner, an effete intellectual, a Jew
>and half-a-dozen Midwesterners.  At least, acc. to the war movies:-)

The war movies, of course, took that demography from Norman Mailer's The
Naked and the Dead.  (The man who recommended it to me was a decorated NCO
veteran of the Pacific campaign, and he said that it was very true to his
experience.  It is indeed a great book.)

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:56:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:56:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  juries
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Flykiller@aol.com

someone wrote:
>Amateur juries
>seem to me to be ill equipped to handle many kinds of cases.

Flykiller@aol.com replied:
>True.  And irrelevant to why they exist.  Juries aren't meant to be
>professional, quite the opposite.  Juries are meant to be a last and final
>check and balance against governmental power over individual citizens.  The
>government can't put anyone in jail unless they can get a bunch of amateur
>citizens to agree.  It's preferable to the alternative.

If you can't explain your case so that twelve ordinary people understand it,
then you don't understand your case adequately.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:56:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:56:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
>
>Sure, not now: a video game, even a military simulator, is simply not
>possible of fully-simulating flight, combat &c.  But thousands of
>years in the future that's not an issue.  If you can damp inertia and
>fake gravity, you can fake the motions and sensations of combat.  If
>you can broadcast in 3D, you can generate a photo-realistic world
>outside the phony cockpit windows.  The only thing you _cannot_
>simulate is the fear of death--and real military training cannot AFAIK
>do that either; only actual flight time can do that.

"I'm sorry, but it appears that Cadet Uhl was killed by the simulator.  In
the simulation, he accelerated his fighter to very high speed, then crashed
it into the drives of an enemy battleship.  The simulation ran its gravitics
to simulate the crash and increased the temperature to simulate the fire
when his L-Hyd tanks exploded.  The combination of being crushed and burned
caused injuries that we were unable treat effectively.  Next!"

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:57:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:57:06 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Acceptable losses
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>
>
>"You know what the difference was between a rich Yankee and a rich
>Southerner? The rich Yankee paid someone to take his place in the army, and
>the rich Southerner outfitted his own regiment."

"An Aramisian doesn't mind if the Vargr live close, as long as they don't
get uppity.  A Reginan doesn't mind if the Vargr get uppity, as long as they
don't live close."

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 16:58:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 15:58:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
>There have been references to Imperial rules concerning
>warfare - are there really any in canon?  No use of nukes by
>non-Imperial forces?  Meson guns?  No genocide?  Eh?

Striker and, I think, MegaTraveller Imperial Encyclopedia, state the
Imperial rules of war.  Here's my view of them.

1.  These "rules" are not a code for combatants.  They are guidelines to aid
local Imperial officials in exercising their discretion about whether to
intervene in a conflict or not.  They are not written down, and they don't
bind anybody.

2.  These rules only apply to situations in which all combatants are
Imperial citizens, or in the employ of Imperial citizens.

3.  The Imperium may choose to intervene if nuclear weapons are in the
possession or use of either side.  Query whether californium or uranium
rounds count as "nuclear" weapons.  Other weapons of mass destruction may
trigger Imperial intervention.

4.  The Imperium may choose to intervene if there is unreasonable off-world
influence in a matter involving a single member state.

5.  War involving space and star craft is permitted, as long as interstellar
commerce is not unduly affected.

"Unduly," "unreasonable," "choose" -- this are only guidelines for Imperial
officials to consider in exercising their discretion.  The rules of war will
not support any sort of legal action (war being, after all, the opposite of
law).

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 17:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug  1 16:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <bf.241eecb7.2a7a4368@aol.com> <3D49BA6B.37759812@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <001801c239b1$63165dc0$cb16bd50@martinjd>

>
> Read Miracle at Midway a few years back. IIRC the torpedo planes were the
ones EXPECTED to take out
> the jap ships. But communication, navigation and planning errors resulted
in the attacks being
> uncoordinated and the TBY's? wound up being slaughtered by the jap CAP and
the ships. When the dive
> bombers showed up there were no planes in a position to oppose their
attack.

That's pretty much what I thought/said...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 17:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Thu Aug  1 16:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
In-Reply-To: <sd495bcc.012@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020801180714.00a7fc80@minn.net>

"Jeff D. Greenly" <jgreenly@hsc.wvu.edu> wrote:
>Would a world that has 80% of its surface covered by water, a dense
>nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, and one moon that is large enough to exert a
>tidal effect tend to be more or less climatically active? Assume
>moderate (terran-normal) vulcanism and a fairly non-polluting early TL
>aqua/agricultural society. Also assume standard polar ice caps and
>rotation around 20 deg. off the plane of the ecliptic. I'll welcome any
>and all comments...

Jeff, I think you may be spending a little too much time at the keyboard.

Go outside, take a walk, relax. Enjoy the weather. ;-)


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
"Do you know how fast you were going on that pogo stick?"
"From now on, everyone in Wisconsin will be named Wally."
				-- Colin Mockerie
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 17:09:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  1 16:09:22 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <200208012308.LWB03316@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>Besides, who is more suicidal in entering such a battle: the 
>fighter crew, some of whom will die in achieving victory; or 
>the capital ship crew, *all* of whom will die *pointlessly*?

Regardless of the ship types, small or large, space combat 
has to be fairly lethal to the crew - if we take the Crew-1 
at its basic form.

If Side A wins the battle, does this mean they attempt to 
salvage some Side B ships?  Is there a nuclear scuttle option 
for capital ships to prevent enemy use?  Or would Side A 
plant nuclear demolition charges on the wrecks of Side B to 
ensure that damaged ships are not recovered?
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 17:20:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug  1 16:20:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <76.201d4ff6.2a7b1285@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c239b3$7174bb80$cb16bd50@martinjd>

>  >Low-end ships so you can do all your jobs within your budget maybe?
>
> I understand that, but there's the question of what your enemy is doing.
> Consider the extreams -- if your goal is to win engagements then you'll
want
> a few expensive capital ships, but if you want to "do all the jobs" then
> you'll want a herd of warm bodies (as it were).  Between the extreams is
the
> balance -- but where is it?  I think it's way over in the "win
engagements"
> side.

Engagemnents of what sort? Enough commerce raiders can cripple your economy
(Battle of the Atlantic etc) despite your excellent battle fleet. If the
engagements you need to win are escort/raider ones, then you need many ships
to cover the area, but ones good enough to beat or deter the raiders.

> If you "cover all the bases" with warm bodies but have to flee every
> time the heavyweight enemy shows up then what good is that?  There is no
> substitute for victory, and to get that victory you need the heavyweights
and
> you need more of them than your enemy.

You need greater concentration of force at the critical point. That can be
done with less ships, better handled and supported.

That said, victory is not necessarily gained by defeating the enemy battle
fleet. If you do that, but he scrubs your industrial worlds with planetary
raider ships, or kills your economy with commerce raiders, then you may not
have won at all.


>
>  >Patrol ships and tankers and whatever you plan to escort the talkers
with.
>
> If by patrol you mean scouts, then yes.  But if you mean general policing
> then I'd think that would be a local police matter and not a fleet matter.

I mean patrol ships to defeat piracy, commerce raiding and smuggling, to
catch enemy intelligence ships and recon vessels, to prevent the stockpiling
of forward supply bases, to gain intelligence, to show the flag and keep
systems in line....

> If I'm an admiral at Jewell looking at 1000 Zhodie capital ship in Cronor,
> and I hear about some pirates at Enope, I'd have to set priorities and ask
> Wochiers to deal with it.  Since imminent war is not a constant threat, if
> some patrols were desperately needed by local governments then I'd send
some
> screening vessels to deal with the problem and then return.

My point is that a fleet needs more than capital ships. You have to HAVE the
anti-pirate ships to be able to do your job.

>
> As for tankers (?), if I had any I'd just keep them with the fleet.

Tankers and logistics ships. They need to move around to be useful; they
have to be replenished and returned to the fleet. Just keeping the fleet in
missiles is a huge undertaking. Logistics vessels, by definition, have to
move around to be any use. But my point, again, was that you have to have
some.

>
> >The USN,
> >for example, has other ships than carriers or attack subs (whichever you
> >consider to be the capital ship). Most navies have some high-end combat
> >ships and low-end workhorses.
>
> That's because of real-world issues regarding weapon load capacities, size
vs
> speed, air / surface / sub environment requirements, hull-shape
requirements,
> and dozens of other factors, make such specialization necessary and
> effective.  These issues don't transfer well to a Traveller universe.  In
> Traveller everyone can go just as fast as the next guy, they all can carry
> the same weapons, there's no limitation on size or hull configuration, and
so
> on.  Would you put an Ageis system on a cargo ship?  You can do it in
> Traveller, and it works.  Would you put ten inch armor on a destroyer?
You
> can do it in Traveller, and it works.  Effective combat ships will all
tend
> towards the same hull/weapons/defenses configuration, and specialization
will
> become mere limitation.

Specialization allows you to afford more ships optimized to a certain role.
You need X patrol ships, Y cruisers, etc. To fulful your low-level
requirements and your fleet screening duties. To be couriers and recon
vessels... by making some of them low-end ships for low-risk misisons, you
have more money available for enough capital ships to do their job.

>
> My Spinward Marches Colonial Fleet has supply vessels, hospital ships,
> minesweepers, and other stuff in addition to its capital vessels.  But
they
> are all sideshows, and minor elements of the fleet -- maybe 5% of the
total
> tonnage.  I intend to win the major engagements first -- I'll clean up any
> leftover messes after I win.

Where will you fight these engagements? How will you make sure you have the
choice of where and when to meet the enemy fleet? What happens if he feints
and threatens with the battle fleet in being and floods your systems with
commerce raiders to break up your logistics chain?





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 17:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Thu Aug  1 16:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <20020801232333.17172.qmail@web11308.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
This tactic is presented not as a desperation move,
but an ordinary one to be implemented if said navy can
put up with it.  To which I responded that 
no fighter pilot community would tolerate it.  Even if
the attacking squadron is originally 1000, after two
capital ships they'll be combat ineffective 
using this tactic, and there will be NO volunteers to
replace them until the tactic 
is discarded.
END QUOTE

But wouldn't more people die if it was cap ship vs.
cap ship?

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://digital.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Digital How To
- Get the best out of your PC!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 17:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  1 16:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <200208012327.LWC00112@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"MJ Dougherty" says
>Where will you fight these engagements? How will you make 
>sure you have the choice of where and when to meet the enemy 
>fleet? What happens if he feints and threatens with the 
>battle fleet in being and floods your systems with
>commerce raiders to break up your logistics chain?

As I believe was mentioned before, those little fighters make 
excellent raiders - You could probably build fairly small, 
fairly cheap ones that would, especially in numbers, lay 
waste to the typical merchant ships.  The ship that carried 
them might not be very large, and could remain far outsystem.

Let me think about this for a while...
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 17:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug  1 16:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <43.f41b3de.2a7a45aa@aol.com> <026001c23992$31805e60$18130050@amoreton>
Message-ID: <007001c239b5$5c29c3e0$cb16bd50@martinjd>

>
>
>
> > >HMS Glow-worm ramming the Admiral Hipper comes to mind. The destroyer's
> >  >mass
> >  >was literally the only thing that might hurt the cruiser, and if she
> wasn't
> >  >hurt then the convoy would be massacred. Her skipper knew his ship
would
> >  >sink; he knew many (but probably not all) of his crew would die. But
the
> >  >decision was made in the face of the enemy, for a clear goal - to save
> >  >hundreds of helpless merchant seamen. Would the crew have accepted an
> >  >Admiralty policy of "we're not giving you torpedoes. You're to close
and
> >  >ram, then sink"? In desperate times, some people actually would. But,
> say,
> >  >in 1934? Nope.
>
> Not to disagree with    the point of the comment but some details on the
> loss of HMS Glowworm  was not escorting a convoy at the time of the battle
> with the Hipper, she had been part of a minelaying sortie off the
Norwegian
> coast she became seperated from her consorts and came across on of the
> Hipper's escrting destroyers. In the prevailing bad weather the Glowworm
was
> forced into close action with the Hipper, the Hipper attempted to run down
> the Glowworm and then the Captain of the Glowworm  Lt Cmdr Gerald G Rooper
> deceided to Ram the Hipper he succeeded adn the impact carried away 120
feet
> of the hippers side plate and let in 528 tons of water , the Hipper
carried
> on with a 4 degree list and accomplished her mission. Many of the
Glowworms
> crew where saved by German vessels not including her captain who drowned
> while being rescued , he was postumously awarded the VC.

OOps. I stand corrected. I was confusing the incident with Sherbrooke's
action vs German cruisers.

> You may perhaps be confusing the Glowworm with 2 British Armed Merchant
> crusiers the Jarvis Bay as the lone escort of a convoy the Jarvis Bay a
> converted liner with about 6 obsolete 6 inch guns when the convoy
> encountered the Pocket Battleship Admiral Scheer heavily armoured and
armed
> with 6 11 inch guns . The Jarvis Bay charged the Admiral Scheer drawing
the
> Fire of the Scheer upon herself allowing the Convoy to scatter to safety
> .her Captain E S F Fegan was awarded the VC posthumously.

I wasn't confusing with the Jervis Bay incident, thanks for pointiong it
out - it stands as another example.

>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 17:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug  1 16:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <e6.2be0ca41.2a7a3051@aol.com> <m3ptx2twnf.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <00ca01c239b8$93015920$cb16bd50@martinjd>

> >
These fighters, BTW.

How are they getting to the battle area? By carrier?

I wonder if I can survive long enough to fly through your fighter screen and
kill the carrier with my meson guns/particle accelerators etc. If I kill
enough carriers, your fighters also die.

Or perhaps I can disrupt your chain of supply enough that you can't replace
the fighters you've lost, or the missiles they expend. Maybe I can avoid
contact until your fighters have to return to base, or until they've thinned
out enough by needing to rotate on station that I can slaughter them. (A
capital ship can remain at combat readiness for a LOT longer than a 2-man
fighter, and doesn't degrade as much over time).

Maybe my escorts and fighter screen can keep my capital ships unscrubbed
while I punch through to kill your carriers and support ships.

We seem to be assuming a straight fight between equal tonnages of fighters
and capital ships, both ready and willing to go. Like when does that sort of
thing happen?

We need also consider mobility, duration of readiness, concentration of
force...etc. If, instead of a "stand-up fight" we consider a longer-term,
wider-area situation - even just the "war-fighting" aspect - then I believe
that a fighter force cannot deliver what the war-fighters need.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:01:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:01:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Energy Blade and Meditation
Message-ID: <3D49CB95.D906C0CF@ameritech.net>

> Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 10:09:06 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Chris Tann <chris_tann@yahoo.com>
>
> Hi all,
>
> I rolled up a character for MT using TravGen Character generation,
> and picked two skills I can't find details on in MT or CT. Can
> someone please let me know what version of Trav they're in? If
> you could also send me a description, that would be great, and
> I'll see if I can convinve my referee to use them...
>
> Meditation
> Energy Blade
>
> I guess Energy Blade relates to a weapon, so details on that
> would be useful too.

These look like a homebrew attempt to use Traveller for a more Star
Warsey kind of game. Perhaps the author of the software in question
knows where they came from.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:02:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:02:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
References: <F137of0aYhHnKZ1nSIz0000ee76@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <00d301c239b9$457629a0$cb16bd50@martinjd>

Because, the airstrikes were cheaper

** And also, perhaps, because the airstikes were first. They could have a go
NOW. If they failed, there was a backup. But waitng for the battle line
might have let the Yamato slip through their fingers - bad weather, faulty
recon, whatever. Or some other crisis (hard to imagine what, but...) might
have drawn the battle line away.

To misquote from the Patton threat - better to do something NOW than
something better LATER


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Hamill)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #847 - 24 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20020731210410.11007.92126.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020802000733.27197.qmail@web21509.mail.yahoo.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

"Message: 8
From: Flykiller@aol.com
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 15:52:03 EDT
Subject: [TML] Acceptable losses
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

 >> 750 / what, 6 years? = 125 per year, about one
every three days.  
hardly
 >> the same as several hundred in one segment of one
line battle in 
one day.
 >
 >What about the whole "over the top" attitude of WWI?
Pouring 
thousands of 
 >lives into suicidal charges for far less gain than
trading a few 
hundred 
 >pilots for a capitol ship? And this was not a
desparation tactic, but 
was 
the 
 >"standard" tactic of the day. Sure I imagine that
the commanders on 
either 
 >side underestimated the potential loss of life, but
several hundred 
lives 
in 
 >one segment of one battle in one day is not as
perposterous as it 
sounds, 
 >when you compare it to infantry losses. How many
marines did the U.S. 
pour 
 >into islands like Iwo Jima and Okinawa in WWII? And
the U.S. was more 
or 
less 
 >winning the war at that stage.

Now that's a good answer and worthy of a good
response.  Let's see how 
well I 
do.

Leading up to WW1 and contributing to it was a vast
and actively 
advanced 
cultural attitude of "God, king and country".  War was
taught as being 
a 
noble and natural thing, and the ancient Greek
attitude of "It is good 
to die 
for one's country" was widely believed.  The concept
of evolution had 
been 
recently introduced, and the idea of competition
between nations and 
peoples 
was very popular.  England was defending its
established empire (on 
which the 
sun never set, a tremendous source of English pride),
Germany was 
determined 
to  expand and find its place in the sun and prove
themselves to the 
world, 
and the French as always felt they were just too
superior to lose.  
National 
pride everywhere was at its peak, and everyone was
ready.  The 
conditions for 
war were as perfect as they will ever be without
scientific 
brainwashing.  
When it came huge numbers said goodby to their mothers
and their 
numerous 
brothers and received the blessings of their priests
and rushed off to 
prove 
their manhood and their courage and their nationality
in this great 
opportunity of their time, thinking that this war
would be similar to 
the 
wars their fathers had fought and celebrated.

It wasn't.  It was a fixed slaughter.  No-one expected
what happened, 
no-one 
could conceive it, and all from the generals to the
privates were slow 
to 
recognize it and accept it.  "Just one more attack,
just one more push, 
and 
we can break through and be like the knights of old." 
Everyone was 
brave, 
but machine guns could mow down entire companies of
the bravest men who 
had 
ever been born.

Their enthusiasm was mowed down as well.  It took a
long time -- the 
enthusiasm had been engendered by generations of
education and cultural 
beliefs and previous survival of other wars --  but
when battles suck 
up 
100,000 men at a pop, for nothing, then even the most
patriotic 
competitors 
realize they're in a suckers game.  In the east the
Russians absorbed 
enormous casualties, then murdered their leaders and
withdrew from the 
war.  
The west, taking fewer casualties and being less
oppressed, still 
rebelled in 
its own way.  The French army actually revolted --
they didn't desert, 
but 
they refused to engage in any offensive action for a
while.  Most 
sections of 
the western front settled down to a routine of firing
off a few shells 
in the 
morning to satisfy their activity reports to their
superiors and then 
relaxing the rest of the day.  In the west battles
began to come only 
after 
enormous preparations and planning, showing the men
that "we can do 
this" 
with monstrously huge artillery bombardments, the
attitude always being 
"One 
more big push and we can finally have the war we
expected."  But it 
never 
happened.

After the war everyone, victors and losers alike, felt
betrayed and 
lied to.  
No-one was happy with the loss of half of an entire
generation.  The 
overriding attitude for decades afterwards was "Never
again."  Neville 
Chamberlain, that so-called appeaser, was a very
popular man in his 
time.

The WW1 over-the-top charge is not really comparable
to the tactic 
under 
discussion.  It was not a standard tactic for that
war, it was an 
inappropriate tactic engendered by ignorance and
generations of 
no-longer-relevant experience.  In the beginning men
did it seeking the 
kind 
of victory they had been led all their lives to
expect, and in the end 
they 
did it out of desperation, rote, and habit, still
seeking that victory.  
When 
(mind you) the _surviving victors_ finally realized
how misled and 
blind they 
had been for four years they turned violently against
what they had 
been 
taught and rejected it for decades.  Many still do to
this day.  NOW 
.... if 
you take hundreds of ambitious highly trained educated
and egotistical 
men 
(pilots are egotistical, they have to be) who are not
there to do grunt 
infantry work, and up-front tell them that their
standard ordinary 
everyday 
tactic will be to hurl themselves to their deaths by
the hundreds in 
the 
hope-against-hope that one or two of them might get
lucky and destroy a 
single capital ship ... well, they're going to race
through that whole 
four-year learning curve in one second and tell you no
way, and your 
pool of 
candidate pilots will dry up immediately.

there's leadership, and then there's armchair
generalship.  armchair 
generals 
that somehow wind up leading troops often get
fragged."

I'm sorry, but this has gotten rediculous. You go
around throwing the term "armchair general" around,
attempting to refute this point, when I don't think
you really know what the point is. The statement was
that at higher tech levels, fighters could damage or
"mission kill" capitol ships, but that the casualties
among the fighters would be high. In an intersteller
nation, with the resources of thousands of worlds,
some with populations many times larger than our own,
do you really think it would be so hard to recruit
vast numbers of qualified pilot types. Especially
since, in the real world, they almost always turn
viable candidates away from pilot training programs in
the USAF, and almost every other military in the
world? And then wash large numbers out, for almost
trivial reasons? It strains credibility to think the
Imperium would not be able to do this, not to mention
their opponents. 
The Zhodani would have no problem getting enough
people with the right manual dexterity and spatial
awareness to qualify. As for their attitude and
"obedience to orders", that is what the Tvarchedl is
for. Guaranteed to risk it all, for the "protection"
of the Consulate. The Vargr? A bit more problematic,
but they, as a race, seem to have even more of a
problem with "macho" a young humans do. I imagine if
you had a couple of charismatic senoir pilots, and
gave the fighters flashy paint jobs you could get a
fairly large number of Vargr to volunteer. And the
Sword Worlds? Almost tailored as a group where this
would be a viable tactic. I imaging you could get
thousands of the lower class youth on your average
Sword World planet to volunteer, to become one of the
"warrior elite", similar to the character played by
George Peppard in "The Blue Max". 
You have to think in terms of percentages, not actual
numbers, to determine your risk of becoming a casualty
in wartime. Many people who would gladly risk
themselves in air combat, even if the chances were
high that they would be injured or killed, would not
do the same in ground combat, even if the odds were
lower that they would be hurt. Something about being
able to influence your fate, if only slightly to the
better, and the sense of control that pilots have,
whether real or not, is a very large factor. 
As for the pilots being unreliable, well, that's what
the computer is for. If they try to sneak off in the
middle of the fight, their system locks itself down,
and returns the fighter to the carrier, or back to the
fight if it's capable of it.

Just my thoughts, 

John
jwdh71@yahoo.com



__________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] System Gen Help
Message-ID: <20020802001136.17476.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>

Help!

I am doing an extended system generation.  I rolled
for #6 to be the max orbit.  I also rolled for 2
captured planets.  One is in orbit 6.3 and the other
is in 6.0

Orbit 6 and 5 are both SGG's.  4 is the mainworld and
the habitable zone.

Is this legitimate?  Or do I need to move the captured
planet in orbit 6.0 to somewhere else.

Thanks.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
Message-ID: <131.11a94592.2a7b1a91@cs.com>

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In a message dated 8/1/02 3:04:45 PM Central Daylight Time, 
jgreenly@hsc.wvu.edu writes:


> Would a world that has 80% of its surface covered by water, a dense
> nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, and one moon that is large enough to exert a
> tidal effect tend to be more or less climatically active? Assume
> moderate (terran-normal) vulcanism and a fairly non-polluting early TL
> aqua/agricultural society. Also assume standard polar ice caps and
> rotation around 20 deg. off the plane of the ecliptic. I'll welcome any
> and all comments...
> 
> Jeff
> 

Since you've just pretty much described Earth (other than the dense 
atmosphere and the nonpolluting civilization) I'd say that, yes, it would be 
fairly climatically active. Indeed, the dense atmosphere would make for some 
hellacious storms (it might take a bit to get going, but it would take even 
longer to peter out.)

Doug Grimes

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 8/1/02 3:04:45 PM Central Daylight Time, jgreenly@hsc.wvu.edu writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Would a world that has 80% of its surface covered by water, a dense
<BR>nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, and one moon that is large enough to exert a
<BR>tidal effect tend to be more or less climatically active? Assume
<BR>moderate (terran-normal) vulcanism and a fairly non-polluting early TL
<BR>aqua/agricultural society. Also assume standard polar ice caps and
<BR>rotation around 20 deg. off the plane of the ecliptic. I'll welcome any
<BR>and all comments...
<BR>
<BR>Jeff
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>Since you've just pretty much described Earth (other than the dense atmosphere and the nonpolluting civilization) I'd say that, yes, it would be fairly climatically active. Indeed, the dense atmosphere would make for some hellacious storms (it might take a bit to get going, but it would take even longer to peter out.)
<BR>
<BR>Doug Grimes</FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Law (Not at all Re: Patton)
Message-ID: <17f.bfe948b.2a7b2c91@aol.com>

John T. Kwon (aka "I am Weasel!") writes:

>There have been references to Imperial rules concerning 
>warfare - are there really any in canon?  No use of nukes by 
>non-Imperial forces?  Meson guns?  No genocide?  Eh?

The nuke prohibition is the main one stated, with the "massive ecological 
damage" and genocide statements sort of implied.

>The line from Apocalypse Now always made sense to me: 
>arresting someone for violating the rules of war is like 
>handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500.

Ah, but the arresting force in this case is a "High Prejudice" call from the 
Imperial Marines and Navy.  The poor sap who fired the nuke may or may not be 
arrested, but the entire chain of command that put that nuke in his hands, up 
to and including the local imperial noble if he is culpable, is either going 
to be dead due to "resisting arrest" (ie. firing at the landing Marines) or 
brought before the first applicable Imperial Noble in the feudal 
line-of-command...

The Imperium rules the "space between the planets", and the planets *like* it 
that way. Anyone who draws the Imperial Attention down to the surface of the 
planet has, by definition, done a Bad Thing.
("Surface" in this case does not normally include the starport, which is 
legally part of the "space" ruled by the Imperium.)

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEKMCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>
>
>When the Imperium deals with outsiders, all bets are...potentially...off.
However, the nobles of the
>Imperium are loath to abandon their own rules even then, and generally
won't unless the

[deletion]

>What these unwritten rules are is up to you, but personally, I use
>17th and 18th European rules concerning ransoms, hostages, pledges,
>prisoner exchanges, not attacking non-combatants, fighting away from
>civilian areas. and so on. Civilizated states abide by them,
>barbarians don't.

To paraphrase the narrator of Dr. Zhivago, "while the Europeans saw the
Great War as a struggle among the nations of Europe, we [Communists] saw it
as a struggle among Europe's upper classes."  To the extent that the ruling
classes of various interstellar entities recognize commonalities with one
another as rulers that may meet or exceed commonalities of culture with
their own servant classes, they will likely afford one another the
courtesies of conflict among the ruling class.

For example, Imperial nobles in the Spinward Marches are primarily of
Solomani ancestry (at least in my Traveller universe), as are the nobles of
the Sword Worlds.  I would expect them to follow certain conventions that
neither would follow in dealing with Vargr rabble.  The Zhodani, too, have a
set of noble traditions and a defined ruling class.  That might lead to some
amount of gentility in the Frontier Wars.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:55:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:55:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Acceptable losses
References: <20020731151827.2338.75109.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00a501c239bf$a4928e00$ac5d8690@computer>

I've been busy for a couple of days, so I'm replying to an old message:

> Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 11:00:17 -0400
> From: "John T. Kwon"
> There were even cavalrymen at High Wood who rode horses into
> a line of German machineguns who had not been shelled in
> advance.  Sheer butchery - and the only reason they were
> employed there was to demonstrate that there was still a need
> for cavalry.  The Germans in that instance lost zero men.
> The cavalry unit was reduced to a few men in a few minutes.

What's sad about this is that cavalry (mounted infantry) was still a
war-winning force at this time. Check out the Eastern Front and Palestine.
(And the Boer War and Russian Civil War, come to think of it.)

Cavalry was still useful, and widely used in WWII. It only died in droves
when it was misused by the kind of cretins that would run them into
machineguns.

(Of course, mounted charges sometimes worked spectacularly well, too. The
Australian Light Horse did some wonderful things in Palestine in WWI.)

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Parole Given...
Message-ID: <189.bb4aecb.2a7b32ae@aol.com>

Robert Uhl writes:

>
>How did it work historically?  What forms of parole were granted?
>

Depends on who was giving, and who was accepting. The one historical case I'm 
aware of involved an ancestor of mine during the Civil War.  A Southerner, he 
was part of a unit raised in his home state for the purpose of penetrating 
into Northern territory and breaking supply lines by sabotaging train tracks 
and the like. That unit was caught and defeated in detail, as the story goes, 
and a fairly large number of men were taken prisoner, including my ancestor.  
Apparently, the Northern unit was far from its own base, and could ill afford 
to deal with a large number of prisoners. So they sent them home. The family 
history relates that my ancestor was given back his gun and told to "go home, 
the war is over for you."  He did, because he knew they were correct.

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 18:57:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Thu Aug  1 17:57:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <20020801182132.8dc5803e76f94f1f98d7b72b3352174c.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <000001c239bf$a48101d0$6501a8c0@Darla>

Buffaloes did fight Zeroes at Midway.  VMF-221 on Midway was equipped
with 19 F2A-3's, of which 16 were lost on June 4.  

A big problem for the Buffalo was the weight gain due to, among other
things, the addition of armor and self-sealing tanks.  The F2A-1 weighed
3875lb empty, but the F2A-3 had grown to 4732lb empty.  Even with a more
powerful engine, initial climb was reduced to 2290 ft/min vice 3060
ft/min.

The Finnish Air Force did very will (477 kills!) with the 44 F2A-1's
that were delivered to them, but they were flying the lightweight
version of the Buffalo against poorly trained Russian pilots for the
most part.

Tom Barnes

Source: Wagner, American Combat Planes, pp.379-381


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 19:23:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Aug  1 18:23:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Baboon Class Missile Frigate
Message-ID: <00ba01c239c3$a1ad72a0$ac5d8690@computer>

Ship: Baboon
Class: Baboon
Type: Missile Frigate
Architect: Alan Bradley
Tech Level: 15

USP
         FM-A146892-000000-00009-0 MCr 809.580 1 KTons
Bat Bear                       1   Crew: 20
Bat                            1   TL: 15

Cargo: 81.000 Fuel: 480.000 EP: 80.000 Agility: 6 Shipboard Security Detail:
1
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 8.096   Cost in Quantity: MCr 647.664

Designed with Andrew Moffat-Vallance's wonderful High Guard Shipyard.
------------------------------------------

The Baboon Class Missile Frigate is a lightly equipped patrol/escort
vehicle.

In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships.

------------------------------------------

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 19:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Aug  1 18:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonabo Class Missile Frigate
Message-ID: <00d401c239c5$866e20a0$ac5d8690@computer>

Ship: Bonabo
Class: Bonabo
Type: Missile Frigate
Architect: Alan Bradley
Tech Level: 15

USP
         FM-A156892-000000-00009-0 MCr 1,196.140 1.5 KTons
Bat Bear                       1   Crew: 24
Bat                            1   TL: 15

Cargo: 2.000 Fuel: 870.000 EP: 120.000 Agility: 6 Shipboard Security Detail:
2
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 11.961   Cost in Quantity: MCr 956.912

Designed with Andrew Moffat-Vallance's wonderful High Guard Shipyard.
------------------------------------------

 A development of the Baboon Class Missile Frigate, the Bonabo is a lightly
equipped patrol/escort
vehicle, capable of Jump 5.

In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships.

 ------------------------------------------

 Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 19:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug  1 18:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
Message-ID: <20020802015140.32494.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>

Help again.

I'm working with World Tamer's Handbook from TNE and I
need to figure the Orbital Period and Rotation Period
for a couple satellites around a Gas Giant.  Problem
is, I don't know where to get the mass for these
beasts in Standard Masses?

Any clues?

Paul

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 20:08:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 19:08:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
In-Reply-To: <sd495bcc.012@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801185752.34d73740@pop.mindspring.com>

At 04:03 PM 8/1/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>Would a world that has 80% of its surface covered by water, a dense
>nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, and one moon that is large enough to exert a
>tidal effect tend to be more or less climatically active? Assume
>moderate (terran-normal) vulcanism and a fairly non-polluting early TL
>aqua/agricultural society. Also assume standard polar ice caps and
>rotation around 20 deg. off the plane of the ecliptic. I'll welcome any
>and all comments...

Need a few more data points:  What is the average temperture?  How long is
the day?
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 20:08:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  1 19:08:47 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
In-Reply-To: <B96ECAA0.67370%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200208011810.LVR04270@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020801190225.470fd9fe@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:23 AM 8/1/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>on 8/1/02 11:10 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

>> I bet that fighting hole full of cold rainwater I stepped
>> into near LZ Aardvark was put there by Doug.  Thanks, Doug.

Only the best for my friends!  And he, I walked into my fair share of those.

>The wonderful bond of shared experience (misery).  We can all sit down
>together, drink beer, and share tales of the fine accommodations of Harmony
>Church, the facilities at AO Eagle, the pleasures of Columbus Georgia.
>Differentiated only by the uniform we wore, or the color of our boots and
>whether we took the SQT or the POIQT.

I went through Sand Hill, where the drills left mints on our pillows, but
much the same thing.. ah, the nights I spent on Victory Drive.. (we called
it VD Drive for obvious reasons.)
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Embrace Fascism.    The uniforms look cool


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 20:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Thu Aug  1 19:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Baboon Class Missile Frigate
Message-ID: <200208020215.g722FLw20931@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com>
>Subject: [TML] Baboon Class Missile Frigate
...
>         FM-A146892-000000-00009-0 MCr 809.580 1 KTons
>Bat Bear                       1   Crew: 20
>Bat                            1   TL: 15
>
>Cargo: 81.000 Fuel: 480.000 EP: 80.000 Agility: 6 Shipboard Security Detail: 1
>Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
...
>The Baboon Class Missile Frigate is a lightly equipped patrol/escort vehicle.
>
>In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships.

  <QUIBBLE> Not really? By TL E or F dampers make these ships just
too inefficient, IIRC?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 20:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 19:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
Message-ID: <d3.f702ca6.2a7b4ae9@aol.com>

 >including not commenting on how a
 >Washington police officer can be hired with felony convictions on his/her
 >record, provided that none were more recent than ten years ago at the time
 >of application.

Well, to be fair, if they didn't follow this hiring policy then could they 
find anyone to hire?

 >Nor will I criticize the voters of that city for being stupid enough to
 >re-elect as mayor a convicted drug dealer, and then expect the tone of the
 >city to be anything other than what it is.

Oh, but they're not stupid.  They knew what the tone of the city would be.  
That's why they voted for him.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 20:43:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Thu Aug  1 19:43:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <200208011145.LVF00804@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEGKEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

Flykiller says
>Yeah, I've seen 'em.  True story:  two female reservists on
>the gallery deck, looking lost and bored and a little
>nervous.  One of 'em suddenly brightens, turns to the other
>and says, "Let's go to the ship's mall!"  The other lights
>up with happiness and they head for the ladder down to the
>store.  It was almost more than I could take.
>

 Sounds like fairly typical 1980's era Navy reservists to me. Report aboard
for two weeks and spend most of your time at the exchange and commissary
soaking up those good Navy benefits. (Most of them could actually afford the
reduced price expensive junk in the exchange that most active duty sailors
couldn't. You know like imported German nick nacks and giant globes with
bars inside. And expensive stereos and electronics. Most lower level
enlisted members have long ago found Wal-Mart and Kmart vastly undersells
the Exchange.)

I never got a decent days work from a reservist, until the Gulf War when
they were called up for six months and found that the contract they sign
actually meant they had leave their cushy high paying job and really be a
sailor. Then most of them straitened out. A few still tried to duck their
duty. I found that this had nothing to do with their gender.

In the active service I've know many fine female sailors who were competent
technicians and fine seaman. And more than a few who were more competent
leaders than many of the critics who bemoaned the posting of woman to ships.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 20:46:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Thu Aug  1 19:46:07 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <3D49DF3B.FDFEAFD6@ameritech.net>

> From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
> Date: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 11:41 pm
>

<snip>

> For JTAS subscribers, the recently-completed starship design 
> contest (Contest #10) had some excellent hospital ships, albeit 
> mostly using design sequences other than HG2.  Note, though, that 
> the winning design (not mine, sad to say) was built using HG2.

That design would have been mine. And IMHO it wasn't the best design in
that contest. I won, I believe, because of my shameless misappropriation
of 20th century american pop culture icons. (I must have been channeling
Dave Nilsen)

All of which reminds me that I have to firm up the details for the next
design contest.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 21:16:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 20:16:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller HIDING
Message-ID: <124.1460d565.2a7b535d@aol.com>

 >>Could be.  Let's find out.  Show me.  Can you handle it?
 >
 >It amuses me far more to watch you beg.

Yes, basking in verbally-asserted superiority is indeed much more pleasant 
than risking actual defeat.  But of course indulging in this makes you a 
coward.

"Sun Tzu said, 'The King likes only empty words.  He is not capable of 
putting them into practice.' "


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 21:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Thu Aug  1 20:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <99.2a2d475a.2a779a93@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4A0109.D48E52E6@pobox.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> >Also, does a crippled fighter neccessarily mean dead crewman?
>
> using ct tables, a factor 9 salvo against a 90 ton fighter results in 9
> critical hits, of which a roll of 2 or 10 ( 1/36 + 3/36 ) represent immediate
> crew death (we'll ignore the presence or absence of rescue vessels, the
> consequences to a pilot of loss of power in his ship, etc).  this results in
> a ( 1 - ( 32 / 36 ) ^ 9 ) or a 65.4% chance of crew death upon being hit.  I
> don't know what typical fighter-pilot survival rates are, but I'll bet that's
> comparable to those of japanese zero's in ww2.

MJ Dougherty wrote: (in a separate message)

> ... surviving to carry out your
> mission is necessary. Surviving to do it again is good. But surviving to go
> home and collect the medals is what every sailor wants. And he wants to KNOW
> that measures have been taken to ensure he will. In almost all situations,
> force survivability is necessary to morale.

The pilot casualty rates you quote above are much too high, IMHO.  They are only
true if the attacker is using TL15 100-ton meson gun bays or if the fighter is
unarmored.
Fighters IMTU carry maximum armor.  This would reduce the non-meson crits listed
above from 9 to 2, with a corresponding increase in crew survival.  Meson hits
would still be Very Bad, but you can design an attack boat of less than 200 tons
that a TL15 capital ship has to roll a 10 on 2d6 to hit.  So, approximately, for
every 6 100-ton meson bays, you get one mission-kill per turn, but the crew
mostly survives.  Not bad odds.  BTW, you get another kill per turn for every two
spinal mounts.  These kills are probably not survivable.

I agree that a sub-100dT fighter cannot carry a weapon which can hurt a TL15
capital ship, mostly because of the difference in computer size.  This is why the
"fighters" in the smoke test were actually 1000dT boats with factor-9 missile
bays.

200-ton attack boats and 1kton missile boats are good if the target has armor
factor 13 or less.  You have to go to a 2kton boat to kill vessels (regardless of
size) which have armor greater than 13. All of these vessels are very survivable.

I'll post a couple of designs.

WKH









From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 22:08:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  1 21:08:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
In-Reply-To: <d3.f702ca6.2a7b4ae9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B96F53B0.67526%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/1/02 7:39 PM, Flykiller@aol.com at Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>> including not commenting on how a
>> Washington police officer can be hired with felony convictions on his/her
>> record, provided that none were more recent than ten years ago at the time
>> of application.
> 
> Well, to be fair, if they didn't follow this hiring policy then could they
> find anyone to hire?

But they couldn't carry a gun.  They'd be a prohibited person under Federal
law, unless they had filed for and received a 'relief from disability' from
the ATF.  And congress has stopped funding this program, so none are being
done.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 22:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Thu Aug  1 21:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <200208020409.g7249Rw09382@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Flykiller@aol.com
>Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 20:25:44 EDT
>Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller 
...
>>  I'm curious as to your evidence for capital ships being unviable,
>>at least at TL's C & D. Assuming that armour is substantial, then
>>larger warships can achieve real utility from mounting repulsors
>>(rules lawyering aside), and their PAWS allow them to handle said
>>frigates (unless Armour J Munchkin-mobiles) the way that some are
>>suggesting fighters would never be allowed to be used.

  As an aside, why are you not discussing the frigates that you 
had posited as the sole class of warship in the post to which I
was responding?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 22:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Thu Aug  1 21:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] max hull size
Message-ID: <200208020411.g724Baw09689@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller 
...
>Again, I'm assuming CT.  Let's see .... at tech 12, max hull size is 199,999 

  <1 MT (USP X) per HG2, pps. 26 & 28.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 22:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 21:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Warships
Message-ID: <36.2b621a09.2a7b633b@aol.com>

>USP
>         BK-H9059J3-L59005-55545-0 MCr 5,624.770 8 KTons
>Bat Bear             1   1 15118   Crew: 110
>Bat                  1   1 15118   TL: 15
>
>Cargo: 170 Fuel: 720.000 EP: 720 Agility: 5 Shipboard Security Detail: 8 

Thanks.  I really do appreciate it.  If I may, I'd like to ask some questions 
(assuming CT and tech 15 in the defender).

1)  If you have armor M, then why do you have a repulsor bay and sand casters?
2)  This vessel could be agility 0 and still be completely immune to all but 
spinal meson gun fire.  Meson screen 3 would be sufficient to completely stop 
any non-spinal-mount meson guns. Since you make it agility 5 and not just 1 
or 2, and give it meson screen 9 (spending all that money on power plant), 
you must expect it to encounter spinal-sized meson gun fire.  It cannot 
survive against such fire, nor can it retaliate.  CT makes no provision for 
the identification of the location of targets that are not out in the open, 
and I assume that big meson guns will be buried, so what rule do you use that 
allows it to shoot back?  the vessel here cannot penetrate meson screen 1 
anyway, so I assume that if there are any large defended meson guns on this 
planet you will be assigning other ships to try and kill them first.  If the 
other ships are that good, then why exactly do you need this one?  And if it 
only deals with mop-up, why give it agility 5 and meson screen 9?
3)  The vessel obviously relies on fuel shuttles (is the parent craft 
streamlined?), which will either be obtaining fuel from the planet oceans or 
from gas giants that are usually, what, a week away.  If the enemy has any 
hidden SDB's nearby you'll have to detail escorts for each shuttle, and 
you'll have to be almost 100% certain that such escorts will be able to drive 
off these SDB's or any raiders that show up.  The parent craft will also 
require guarding, which will require more escorts.  It seems to me that it 
would be more efficient to just pack all these escorts, carriers, and riders 
into a few tougher vessels.

It seems to me that this is a fairly large investment in material that is 
useful only after the enemy fleet is no longer a threat.  If your fleet is 
there guarding it then there's no reason to build it, and if your fleet is 
not there then you must have zero expectation of any significant enemy fleet 
elements showing up.

This individual vessel is tough and cheap, but I don't see the context that 
will make it appropriate.  Could you elaborate on the context?  Thanks.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 22:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Thu Aug  1 21:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat
References: <00ba01c239c3$a1ad72a0$ac5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <3D4A0BEB.49706A1F@pobox.com>

Ship: Pebble
Class: Pebble
Type: Attack Boat
Architect: WKH
Tech Level: 15

USP
         BA-1806E81-G00000-05000-0 MCr 250.607 185 Tons
Bat Bear                    1      Crew: 2
Bat                         1      TL: 15

Cargo: 0.350 Frozen Watch Emergency Low: 1 Fuel: 25.900 EP: 25.900 Agility: 6

Architects Fee: MCr 2.506   Cost in Quantity: MCr 200.485

Detailed Description

COMMENTS
The Pebble was designed to be hard to hit and hard to kill.  It combines a
planetoid hull (AF18) with a model 8 computer and yet retains an agility rating
of
6.  It packs a powerful short-range offensive punch by utilizing the most
advanced fusion gun technology available.

In case of crew casualty, a backup pilot/gunner can be carried as a frozen
watch.  An emergency low berth can accomodate the entire crew if the boat is
disabled.

Pebbles are often found operating in conjunction with Baboon class missile
frigates.

In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships which have an armor
factor of 13 or less.

HULL
185.000 tons standard, 2,590.000 cubic meters, Planetoid Configuration

CREW
Pilot, Gunner

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 6G Manuever, Power plant-14, 25.900 EP, Agility 6

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/8 Computer

HARDPOINTS
1 Hardpoint

ARMARMENT
1 Dual Fusion Gun Turret in 1 Battery (Factor-5)

DEFENCES
Armoured Hull (Factor-16)

CRAFT
None

FUEL
25.900 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
No Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
1.0 Stateroom, 1 Low Berth, 1 Emergency Low Berth, 0.350 Ton Cargo

COST
MCr 253.113 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 2.506), MCr 200.485 in Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
55 Weeks Singly, 44 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
The Pebble was designed to be hard to hit and hard to kill.  It combines a
planetoid hull (AF18) with a model 8 computer and yet retains an agility rating
of
6.  It packs a powerful short-range offensive punch by utilizing the most
advanced fusion gun technology available.

In case of crew casualty, a backup pilot/gunner can be carried as a frozen
watch.  An emergency low berth can accomodate the entire crew if the boat is
disabled.

Pebbles are often found operating in conjunction with Baboon class missile
frigates.

In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships which have an armor
factor of 13 or less.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 22:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Aug  1 21:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption (was: warship optimization)
Message-ID: <F176AUfKRfcjcMzfoV100024006@hotmail.com>

From: Bill Hopper <whopper@pobox.com>

     "I agree that a sub-100dT fighter cannot carry a weapon which can hurt 
a TL15 capital ship, mostly because of the difference in computer size.  
This is why the "fighters" in the smoke test were actually 1000dT boats with 
factor-9 missile bays."


Mr. Hopper,

     The fighter designs used in the smoke tests I was referring to were 
sub-100Ton types.  They were also run at TL12.  Here are the USPs:

FM-0306G51-000000-00002-1 MCr 138.525 50 tons
Batt bear 1 Crew; 1
Batt 1 TL: 12
Cargo: 1.000 Fuel: 8.000 EP: 1.000 Agility: 6

          and

FG-0306G51-000000-04000-0 MCr 138.275 50 tons
Batt Bear 1 Crew: 1
Batt 1 TL: 12
Cargo: 0.00 Fuel; 0.00 EP: 0.00 Agility: 2

     Please note, these designs were pretty much bare bones exercises, i.e. 
cram the weapons and computer aboard, hang the rest.  They could have easily 
been armored, up powered, and run to 99 dTons.  The FG especially could use 
a higher agility.

     "200-ton attack boats and 1kton missile boats are good if the target 
has armor factor 13 or less.  You have to go to a 2kton boat to kill vessels 
(regardless of size) which have armor greater than 13. All of these vessels 
are very survivable."

     Oh yes, I very much agree with you there, especially in the upper TL 
reaches.  Battleriders work, as long as you can protect the tender!

     "I'll post a couple of designs."

     Please do, then perhaps Mr. Flykiller could run them against his 
Spinward Marches Colonial (sic) Fleet.  Without those goofy crew skills 
level house rules too?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 22:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  1 21:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <m3ofclg93m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net> writes:
>
> > Sure, not now: a video game, even a military simulator, is simply
> > not possible of fully-simulating flight, combat &c.  But thousands
> > of years in the future that's not an issue.  If you can damp
> > inertia and fake gravity, you can fake the motions and sensations
> > of combat.  If you can broadcast in 3D, you can generate a
> > photo-realistic world outside the phony cockpit windows.  The only
> > thing you _cannot_ simulate is the fear of death--and real
> > military training cannot AFAIK do that either; only actual flight
> > time can do that.
> 
> "I'm sorry, but it appears that Cadet Uhl was killed by the
> simulator.  In the simulation, he accelerated his fighter to very
> high speed, then crashed it into the drives of an enemy battleship.
> The simulation ran its gravitics to simulate the crash and increased
> the temperature to simulate the fire when his L-Hyd tanks exploded.
> The combination of being crushed and burned caused injuries that we
> were unable treat effectively.  Next!"

You really think that a computer can be powerful enough to simulate
all that and yet not have safeguards to prevent death?  I would
imagine that it'd be just like a modern simulator: screw up and you
get the `shatter screen.'

Although it could also be used to give you a nasty shock or something
every time you screw up...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Mit den Frauen ist das wie mit den Firewalls: was [...] am meisten
Sicherheit garantiert und am wenigsten Probleme macht, ist immer das,
was zum speziellen Fall am besten passt.
                        --Urs Traenkner in de.comp.security.firewall

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 22:52:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Thu Aug  1 21:52:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat
In-Reply-To: <3D4A0BEB.49706A1F@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEKPIJAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Ship: Pebble
Class: Pebble
Type: Attack Boat
Architect: WKH
Tech Level: 15

USP
         BA-1806E81-G00000-05000-0 MCr 250.607 185 Tons
Bat Bear                    1      Crew: 2
Bat                         1      TL: 15

Cargo: 0.350 Frozen Watch Emergency Low: 1 Fuel: 25.900 EP: 25.900 Agility:
6

Architects Fee: MCr 2.506   Cost in Quantity: MCr 200.485

Detailed Description

COMMENTS
The Pebble was designed to be hard to hit and hard to kill.  It combines a
planetoid hull (AF18) with a model 8 computer and yet retains an agility
rating
of
6.  It packs a powerful short-range offensive punch by utilizing the most
advanced fusion gun technology available.

In case of crew casualty, a backup pilot/gunner can be carried as a frozen
watch.  An emergency low berth can accomodate the entire crew if the boat is
disabled.

Pebbles are often found operating in conjunction with Baboon class missile
frigates.

In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships which have an armor
factor of 13 or less.

HULL
185.000 tons standard, 2,590.000 cubic meters, Planetoid Configuration

CREW
Pilot, Gunner

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 6G Manuever, Power plant-14, 25.900 EP, Agility 6

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/8 Computer

HARDPOINTS
1 Hardpoint

ARMARMENT
1 Dual Fusion Gun Turret in 1 Battery (Factor-5)

DEFENCES
Armoured Hull (Factor-16)

CRAFT
None

FUEL
25.900 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
No Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
1.0 Stateroom, 1 Low Berth, 1 Emergency Low Berth, 0.350 Ton Cargo

COST
MCr 253.113 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 2.506), MCr 200.485 in
Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
55 Weeks Singly, 44 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
The Pebble was designed to be hard to hit and hard to kill.  It combines a
planetoid hull (AF18) with a model 8 computer and yet retains an agility
rating
of
6.  It packs a powerful short-range offensive punch by utilizing the most
advanced fusion gun technology available.

In case of crew casualty, a backup pilot/gunner can be carried as a frozen
watch.  An emergency low berth can accomodate the entire crew if the boat is
disabled.

Pebbles are often found operating in conjunction with Baboon class missile
frigates.

In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships which have an armor
factor of 13 or less.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Heh

Great minds and all that.  I sent this out for the Rodeo on
June 20.

jml


Permission granted to post as part of the TML Rodeo

Lest I forget, these ships were made using Mr.
Moffatt-Vallance's excellent High Guard Shipyard.

The Brilliant Pebble is one of the current Provincial
fleet elements protecting Glisten.  built out of slag
the tunneling that constantly is generated by the tunneling
that shapes the belt cities.

With 6 g acceleration, a 100 ton Particle Accelerator bay,
and very powerful computers the Pebble is a danger even to
capital ships, while it's armored rocky hull, back up computers,
marine contingent, and frozen watch render it a tenacious
scrapper

Ship: Glisten RX11-113
Class: Brilliant Pebble
Type: Monitor
Architect: jml
Tech Level: 15

USP
         PP-A8068J2-B00400-00906-0 MCr 1,134.444 1.6 KTons
Bat Bear                     1 1   Crew: 57
Bat                          1 1   TL: 15

Cargo: 44.000 Frozen Watch (x2) Fuel: 256.000 EP: 128.000 Agility: 1 Ships
Troops: 2 Marines: 25
Craft: 1 x 40T Pinnace
Backups: 1 x Model/8fib Computer 1 x Bridge

Architects Fee: MCr 11.344   Cost in Quantity: MCr 907.555


Detailed Description

TONNAGE
1,600.000 tons standard, 22,400.000 cubic meters, Planetoid Configeration

CREW
11 Officers, 21 Ratings, 25 Marines

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 6G Manuever, Power plant-8, 128.000 EP, Agility 1

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/9fib Computer
1 Backup Bridge, 1 Model/8fib Backup Computer

HARDPOINTS
1 100-ton bay, 6 Hardpoints

ARMARMENT
1 100-ton Particle Accelerator Bay (Factor-9), 6 Triple Missile Turrets in 1
Battery (Factor-6)

DEFENCES
Nuclear Damper (Factor-4), Armoured Hull (Factor-8)

CRAFT
1 40.000 ton Pinnace (Crew of 2)

FUEL
32.000 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 60 days endurance)
No Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
32.0 Staterooms, 60 Low Berths, 44.000 Tons Cargo

COST
MCr 1,145.788 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 11.344), MCr 907.555 in
Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
128 Weeks Singly, 103 Weeks in Quantity


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 22:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Aug  1 21:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Civility (was Re: warship HIDING)
Message-ID: <F60mzsZCnT9An4eVh2V00024324@hotmail.com>

From: Flykiller@aol.com

     "Yes, basking in verbally-asserted superiority is indeed much more 
pleasant than risking actual defeat.  But of course indulging in this makes 
you a (description deleted by LEW)"


Sir,

     This post was completely uncalled for, in very poor taste, and little 
more than flame bait.  Posting such a message was definitely beneath you.  I 
cannot believe you would normally behave in such a manner.  Passions may be 
running high on both sides of this discussion, but that doesn't mean we need 
to lower ourselves and make personal attacks.
     All of us on the List have been guilty of such behavior in the past, 
myself especially, but we all also try to conduct ourselves in as civil a 
manner as possible.  Because we're human, sometimes we fail.  However, we 
all still try.
     Your opinions and views have kicked off quite an interesting thread 
here on the List.  I have found your responses to other threads interesting 
also.  However, posting a message such as the one in question will do little 
more than earn you a place in many members' kill files.  Your posts, 
observations, and opinions deserve a better fate than that.
     I look forward to your future posts on a variety of threads and feel 
certain that you will conduct yourself in a truly civil manner.


     Sincerely,
     William R. Cameron, aka Larsen E. Whipsnade

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  1 23:36:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Thu Aug  1 22:36:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
In-Reply-To: <3D4A0109.D48E52E6@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEMJELAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Why would a warship allocate a factor 9 missile salvo, which as I understand
represents a lot of missiles against a single fighter? I know the HG rules
do the combat this way but it makes little sense. On the bridge, "commander
launch fifty missiles at that fighter..."


If people want fighters to be more effective in a high tech environment just
reduce the effectiveness of the point defence systems.

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 00:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 23:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] juries
Message-ID: <1a8.614142f.2a7b7b13@aol.com>

 >Maybe the concept of men, not so much laws, is not a bad 
 >one.  Sure, we could say that on Regina, there's no specific 
 >law against writing your ledgers that way.  On the other 
 >hand, if news gets out, and there's enough related heat (such 
 >as massive corporate collapse), the Duke of Regina will be 
 >sending you a personal invitation to the prison hulk.

What if he doesn't wait until there's enough "related heat"?  What if he 
doesn't wait for any heat at all?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 00:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 23:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <11c.14c7f23e.2a7b7e6b@aol.com>

 >Larsen raises several excellent points. I thought I would chime in,
 >briefly, because I am of the opinion that Mr. Fly simply doesn't get it
 >despite what the true warrior types on the TML have been (very
 >patiently) explaining. TML hasn't been this interesting in a while!
 >
 >One need only to look at the Battle of the Atlantic to see how much of
 >an effect esprit de corps and loyalty go towards men willingly going
 >into grave danger. I may be slightly off on my numbers, but the U-Boat
 >service saw the highest losses of ANY service branch, across all
 >nationalities during WW II. Something like 80% of all U-boatmen were KIA
 >towards the end of the war, with the average life expectancy being a
 >week.

A week?

I posted an adequate answer to that particular example.  No-one responded to 
it at all, patiently or otherwise.  Not that anyone has to, but ....

In reference to the original post that started all this, I don't know what 
else to say, 'cept I'm glad all these true warriors aren't in charge of 
making making major procurement and force deployment decisions.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 00:23:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  1 23:23:08 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <9f.2b1fbbad.2a7b7f21@aol.com>

 >BTW, I think some of the best Navy chow to be had is at RTC Great
 >Lakes.

What are you talking about?  They put chopped onions in the jello!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 01:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 00:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
Message-ID: <19e.6479ce5.2a7b8a94@aol.com>

 >Would a world that has 80% of its surface covered by water, a dense
 >nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, and one moon that is large enough to exert a
 >tidal effect tend to be more or less climatically active? Assume
 >moderate (terran-normal) vulcanism and a fairly non-polluting early TL
 >aqua/agricultural society. Also assume standard polar ice caps and
 >rotation around 20 deg. off the plane of the ecliptic. I'll welcome any
 >and all comments...

I've often wondered along those lines.  If you look at our system the size 2 
moon is at the very limit (book 6) of its possible orbit, yet when generating 
traveller systems it is quite possible to have much larger moons orbiting 
much closer to their world.  The tides would be huge.  I would imagine there 
would be very few costal cities throughout most systems, because they'd be 
flooded by 50 foot tides.

As I understand it weather is caused mostly by heat transfer across a 
planet's surface.  Since your world has a 20 degree axial tilt then I would 
think its weather would be about comparable to Terra's.  If denser atmosphere 
holds more heat then it should be more active.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 01:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 00:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <151.11ceca62.2a7b936d@aol.com>

 >The Germans, and
 >particularly the Japanese were horribly dehumanized.  We made our enemies
 >into monsters so then it was OK to exterminate them.

Seems to be part of the human condition.  Not only is the enemy an inhuman 
monster and responsible for any and all evil, _we_ are pure as the 
wind-driven snow in any and all circumstances.  "It's Al Qaida's fault we 
bombed a wedding party!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 01:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 00:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <41.21182628.2a7b9569@aol.com>

 >"A mediocre plan executed immediately is better than a briliant plan
 >executed later."

Good post.  I always thought the quote was "A good plan now is better than a 
perfect plan later."  I like it better that way anyway.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 02:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 01:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <de.2af56363.2a7b992a@aol.com>

 >> >HMS Glow-worm ramming the Admiral Hipper comes to mind. The destroyer's
 >>  >mass
 >>  >was literally the only thing that might hurt the cruiser, and if she
 >wasn't
 >>  >hurt then the convoy would be massacred. Her skipper knew his ship would
 >>  >sink; he knew many (but probably not all) of his crew would die. But the
 >>  >decision was made in the face of the enemy, for a clear goal - to save
 >>  >hundreds of helpless merchant seamen. Would the crew have accepted an
 >>  >Admiralty policy of "we're not giving you torpedoes. You're to close and
 >>  >ram, then sink"? In desperate times, some people actually would. But,
 >say,
 >>  >in 1934? Nope.
 > 
 >Not to disagree with    the point of the comment but some details on the
 >loss of HMS Glowworm  was not escorting a convoy at the time of the battle
 >with the Hipper, she had been part of a minelaying sortie off the Norwegian
 >coast she became seperated from her consorts and came across on of the
 >Hipper's escrting destroyers.

Here's the url for the true story.  Nice site.

http://www.hmsglowworm.org.uk

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 02:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Pronto)
Date: Fri Aug  2 01:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Civility (was Re: warship HIDING)
In-Reply-To: <F60mzsZCnT9An4eVh2V00024324@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000201c239fc$f5e3bd00$1202a8c0@RodgerYoung>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com 
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Larsen 
> E. Whipsnade
> Sent: August 1, 2002 9:54 PM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] Civility (was Re: warship HIDING)
> 
> 
> 
>      This post was completely uncalled for, in very poor 
> taste, and little 
> more than flame bait.  Posting such a message was definitely 
> beneath you.

<Deleted, you wrote it, you know what was here.  :)   >

>      I look forward to your future posts on a variety of 
> threads and feel 
> certain that you will conduct yourself in a truly civil manner.
> 
> 
>      Sincerely,
>      William R. Cameron, aka Larsen E. Whipsnade
> 

Excellently done!   Bravo!   You are truly a civilized person.

Pronto
AKA Brian Taylor



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 02:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Edward Swatschek)
Date: Fri Aug  2 01:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <200208011817.LVR05093@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208011817.LVR05093@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020802083028.LLOT14925.priv-edtnes04.telusplanet.net@there>

On Thursday 01 August 2002 11:17, John T. Kwon wrote:
>>
> There have been references to Imperial rules concerning
> warfare - are there really any in canon?  No use of nukes by
> non-Imperial forces?  Meson guns?  No genocide?  Eh?

The Rules were established early in CT (Sup11: Library Data N-Z, Striker,  
et al).  

First, they apply to conflict within the Imperium, and aim to maintain it's 
economic & military well-being.

The conflict should be local to a single system, though extra-planetary 
'assistance' is allowed within limits.  

They are unwritten so as to prevent formal precedent from preventing 
Imperial intervention.

"...use or possesion of nuclear weapons, if discovered, will almost 
certainly trigger Imperial intervention.  The Imperium alone retains rights 
to such weapons ... certain other weapons (chemical and bacteriological 
agents, and meson accelerators, for example) are strictly controlled, 
although they are not subject to the sweeping restrictions placed on 
nuclear weapons."



-- 
Edward Swatschek - edjs@bitslayer.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 02:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 01:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <200208012327.LWC00112@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <000201c23a02$bf4aef60$0112bd50@martinjd>

> "MJ Dougherty" says
> >Where will you fight these engagements? How will you make
> >sure you have the choice of where and when to meet the enemy
> >fleet? What happens if he feints and threatens with the
> >battle fleet in being and floods your systems with
> >commerce raiders to break up your logistics chain?
>
> As I believe was mentioned before, those little fighters make
> excellent raiders - You could probably build fairly small,
> fairly cheap ones that would, especially in numbers, lay
> waste to the typical merchant ships.  The ship that carried
> them might not be very large, and could remain far outsystem.
>
> Let me think about this for a while...

Raider-carriers are an excellent idea. I wonder if escort carriers could
counter them. Or if they could carry enough fighters to scrub a decent light
cruiser before it closed and killed the carrier. Or....




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 02:49:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 01:49:04 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <45.1b1ae706.2a7ba15e@aol.com>

 >> ah yes, military spending.  but have you noticed that money is not at all
 >> the limiting factor in naval construction?  and even if it were, it's not
 >> the factor you make it out to be.  in the united states today, 250 million
 >> citizens contribute $300 billion or so annually in defense spending --
 >> that's $1200 from each man, woman, child, and illegal alien.  trillion
 >> credit squadron states that each imperial citizen contributes an average 
of
 >> 500Cr towards their navy -- I don't think that that is at all 
unreasonable,
 >> especially given that their military is primarily naval.  if anything it's
 >> too low, but it's still enough to allow the spinward marches to pay for
 >> about 2500 200kton battleships.  that's a lot of hardware, enough to put,
 >> what, ten battleships in each and every imperial spinward marches system. 
 >> what significant optimization can be had here?  there's some, but not 
much.
 >
 > hmmm... I must examine this .... after applying exchange rates and 
figuring 
 >the costs of support facilities, supplies and auxiliaries ( not to mention 
 >graft and 400$ hammers)

I'd like to hear what you find.  When I researched the Spinward Marches and 
realized what was really going on it was quite eye-opening.  So many ideas, 
even canon ideas, went out the window.

 >> as an aside, yeah, I suppose so.  but I subscribe completely to gary 
 >> gygax's idea:  "More 'realistic' combat systems could certainly have been
 >> included here, but they have no real part in a game for a group of players
 >> having an exciting adventure."
 >
 >Here is the schwerpunkt.

Isn't that a great word?

 >Do people play traveller as a wargame...or do they 
 >play traveller as a RPG.?

For me it's an RPG, but each one leads to the other.

 >How wonderful that there exists a game that can do 
 >both well.

Completely agree.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 03:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 02:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <m3ofclg93m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <004301c23a04$8cdeff60$0112bd50@martinjd>

> You really think that a computer can be powerful enough to simulate
> all that and yet not have safeguards to prevent death?  I would
> imagine that it'd be just like a modern simulator: screw up and you
> get the `shatter screen.'
>
> Although it could also be used to give you a nasty shock or something
> every time you screw up...

There are simulator drawbacks - "simulator sickness", which is kind of
psychosomatic motion sickness, can begin to manifest itself on real missions
(or cause them to not do certain things because they expect sim sickness).
Pilots sometimes begin to develop habits that optimise their performance in
the simulator rather than in the real environment. And they can develop a
habit of recklessness since they can't die, which is bad if carried over, or
sometimes evaporates in a mist of nerves because suddenly they CAN.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 03:03:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 02:03:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <99.2a2d475a.2a779a93@aol.com> <3D4A0109.D48E52E6@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <005801c23a04$ec770b20$0112bd50@martinjd>

> I agree that a sub-100dT fighter cannot carry a weapon which can hurt a
TL15
> capital ship, mostly because of the difference in computer size.  This is
why the
> "fighters" in the smoke test were actually 1000dT boats with factor-9
missile
> bays.
>

Huh? 1000 tons is an escort, or a frigate or something. But certainly not a
fighter.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 03:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri Aug  2 02:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
References: <20020802062003.11635.24330.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D4A4D4B.3C4D1955@ameritech.net>

> Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 18:51:40 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com>
>
> Help again.
> 
> I'm working with World Tamer's Handbook from TNE and I
> need to figure the Orbital Period and Rotation Period
> for a couple satellites around a Gas Giant.  Problem
> is, I don't know where to get the mass for these
> beasts in Standard Masses?
> 
> Any clues?

I couldn't find that info in any TNE source. There are charts for that
in "World Builder's Handbook" for MT. Assuming for the moment that you
don't have access to that very worthwhile publication I can give you
some typical figures from that source.

Smallest SGG radius = 20
Average SGG radius ~= 60
Highest SGG radius = 100

Smallest LGG radius = 110
Average LGG radius ~= 175
Highest LGG radius = 240

Lowest GG density = .1
Average GG density ~= .21
Highest GG density = .3

Send me a private email if you want the full charts. (I just don't have
the energy to type all of it up at the moment)

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 03:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 02:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <151.11ceca6f.2a7ba7cc@aol.com>

 >> Yes, with a huge Japanese fleet threatening their homeland and only them
 >> standing between the yellow peril and their families.  It was not, 
however, a
 >> standard tactic, employed "because they'll tolerate it".
 > 
 >Read Miracle at Midway a few years back. IIRC the torpedo planes were the 
ones EXPECTED to take out
 >the jap ships. But communication, navigation and planning errors resulted 
in the attacks being
 >uncoordinated and the TBY's? wound up being slaughtered by the jap CAP and 
the ships. When the dive
 >bombers showed up there were no planes in a position to oppose their attack.

This example doesn't make your point.  They wound up doing what they did 
because they were making the best of a bad situation,  not because it was a 
standard tactic.  Deciding that because they were willing to work it out that 
therefore you can order them to do it this way every time is abusive of their 
profession.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 03:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 02:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <151.11ceca6f.2a7ba7cc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <008b01c23a07$bf413920$0112bd50@martinjd>

>Read Miracle at Midway a few years back. IIRC the torpedo planes were the
> ones EXPECTED to take out
>  >the jap ships. But communication, navigation and planning errors
resulted
> in the attacks being
>  >uncoordinated and the TBY's? wound up being slaughtered by the jap CAP
and
> the ships. When the dive
>  >bombers showed up there were no planes in a position to oppose their
attack.
>
> This example doesn't make your point.  They wound up doing what they did
> because they were making the best of a bad situation,  not because it was
a
> standard tactic.  Deciding that because they were willing to work it out
that
> therefore you can order them to do it this way every time is abusive of
their
> profession.

Yes indeed. These guys did their job and made the attack despite everything
that was going wrong. The US aircrews got hammered - in fact, what killed
the IJN more than anything else was losses in good pilots, resulting
declining capability and more losses from elementary "inexperience" errors.

But anyway, point is that motivated, armed people will do their best nearly
all of the time. Creating policies that slaughter them for no good reason is
stupid, and will rob you of that motivation.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 03:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 02:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <177.c4ef5d8.2a7ba9ee@aol.com>

 >>Sure, not now: a video game, even a military simulator, is simply not
 >>possible of fully-simulating flight, combat &c.  But thousands of
 >>years in the future that's not an issue.  If you can damp inertia and
 >>fake gravity, you can fake the motions and sensations of combat.  If
 >>you can broadcast in 3D, you can generate a photo-realistic world
 >>outside the phony cockpit windows.  The only thing you _cannot_
 >>simulate is the fear of death--and real military training cannot AFAIK
 >>do that either; only actual flight time can do that.
 >
 >"I'm sorry, but it appears that Cadet Uhl was killed by the simulator.  In
 >the simulation, he accelerated his fighter to very high speed, then crashed
 >it into the drives of an enemy battleship.  The simulation ran its gravitics
 >to simulate the crash and increased the temperature to simulate the fire
 >when his L-Hyd tanks exploded.  The combination of being crushed and burned
 >caused injuries that we were unable treat effectively.  Next!"

No depressurization?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 04:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 03:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
In-Reply-To: <20020802062003.11635.24330.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020802062003.11635.24330.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <eimkkukp9lm8iv0tjm0iu5gvjaoi5j6oov@4ax.com>

On Thu, 01 Aug 2002 23:20:03 -0700, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

[quoting me]

> >including not commenting on how a
> >Washington police officer can be hired with felony convictions on his/her
> >record, provided that none were more recent than ten years ago at the time
> >of application.

>Well, to be fair, if they didn't follow this hiring policy then could they 
>find anyone to hire?

Yes.  In NYC, they call such positions 'hard to recruit', and that
automatically invokes paragraph 1127 of the Charter of the City of New York
- which paragraph allows them _not_ to impose or enforce the residency
requirement, and _does_ require that an employee hired under it be assessed
a non-tax payment, computed like the city's income tax, as a 'condition of
employment'.

> >Nor will I criticize the voters of that city for being stupid enough to
> >re-elect as mayor a convicted drug dealer, and then expect the tone of the
> >city to be anything other than what it is.

>Oh, but they're not stupid.  They knew what the tone of the city would be.  
>That's why they voted for him.

I refuse to believe that they _want_ a city that is so badly mismanaged
that Congress was ready to take away what autonomy they had.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 04:22:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 03:22:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Terminal Authors' Diarrhea
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020727101338.482f1ef0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20802.012022.5a5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 01:41 PM 7/27/2002 +0000, you wrote:
>
>>     Larsen, currently slogging through Turtledove's "Blood and Iron"
>
> "The Center Cannot Hold" is already out.  And it is wonderful!  I might Dr,
> Turtledove at BayCon, and suggested that I'd love to see the CSA timeline
> reach 1942.. and suddenly have the Race (from the Worldwar series) show up.
>  He told me he had been torturing his editor with that idea for sometime
> already.

Now you've given me an *evil* idea...

The Race shows up in 1942. And runs into the WWII of S.M. Stirling's
"Marching Through Georgia".

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 04:23:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Aug  2 03:23:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <000201c23a02$bf4aef60$0112bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3D4B05EA.9496.5198B9B@localhost>

On 2 Aug 2002, at 1:14, MJ Dougherty wrote:

> Raider-carriers are an excellent idea. I wonder if escort carriers could
> counter them. Or if they could carry enough fighters to scrub a decent light
> cruiser before it closed and killed the carrier. Or....

Ship: Nairana
Class: Vindex
Type: Escort Carrier
Architect: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
Tech Level: 13

USP
         RE-A731332-040000-44003-1 MCr 791.714 1 KTons
Bat Bear             6     11  2   Crew: 52
Bat                  6     11  2   TL: 13

Cargo: 11.400 Fuel: 330 EP: 30 Agility: 1 Marines: 7
Craft: 8 x 30T Patrol Fighters, 2 x 20T Lifeboats
Fuel Treatment: On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 4.893   Cost in Quantity: MCr 693.851


Detailed Description

HULL
1,000.000 tons standard, 14,000.000 cubic meters, Dispersed Structure 
Configuration

CREW
Pilot, Navigator, 4 Engineers, Medic, 10 Gunners, 18 Flight Crew, 7 
Marines, 10 Additional Crew (User Defined)

ENGINEERING
Jump-3, 1G Manuever, Power plant-3, 30.000 EP, Agility 1

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/3 Computer, Model/2 Flight Avionics, Model/3 Sensors, 
Model/3 Maser Communications

HARDPOINTS
10 Hardpoints

ARMAMENT
2 Triple Missile Turrets organised into 2 Batteries (Factor-3), 1 Triple Beam 
Laser Turret organised into 1 Battery (Factor-4), 1 Dual Fusion Gun Turret 
organised into 1 Battery (Factor-4)

DEFENCES
6 Triple Sandcaster Turrets organised into 6 Batteries (Factor-4)

CRAFT
8 30.000 ton Patrol Fighters (Crew of 2, Cost of MCr 36.920), 2 20.000 ton 
Lifeboats (Crew of 1, Cost of MCr 3.520)

FUEL
330 Tons Fuel (3 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
No Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
26 Staterooms, 1 Engineering Shop, 1 Vehicle Shop, 20 Tons of Missile 
Magazines (holding 400 missiles), 11.400 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
1 Maintainance Hanger (60.000 tons, Crew 10, Cost MCr 0.600), 4 Brig 
Cells (4.000 tons, Crew 0, Cost MCr 0.700)

COST
MCr 494.207 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 4.893), MCr 391.451 in 
Quantity, plus MCr 302.400 of Carried Craft (Hardpoints and Turrets 
charged)

CONSTRUCTION TIME
120 Weeks Singly, 96 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
The humble escort carrier is an often overlooked member of the Imperial 
Navy, but nonetheless it is probably one of the most useful vessels at the 
Emperor's disposal. Its modest costs coupled with the fexibility granted by 
its fighters give it range of options available to virtually no other type of 
vessel.

The escort carrier concept was developed by Cleon Zhunastu (later 
Emperor Cleon I) in the final years of the Sylean Federation. Initially 
intended as an answer to the endemic piracy that afflicted the fringes of the 
Federation, the type rapidly proved to be one of the most versatile in the 
fleet.

The Vindex class is a fairly typical example of the type. Designed during 
the later stages of the Civil War, it first found popularity amongst planetary 
navies and corporate interests seeking to find a cost effective suppliment 
for reduced Imperial Navy patrols. The class has also proved to be 
extremely flexible, often used to provide orbital and air support for minor 
troop deployments.

Ship: Puffin
Class: Puffin
Type: Patrol Fighter
Architect: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
Tech Level: 13

USP
         FP-0604B31-230000-20002-0 MCr 46.150 30 Tons
Bat Bear             1     1   1   Crew: 2
Bat                  1     1   1   TL: 13

Cargo: 0.500 Fuel: 3.300 EP: 3.300 Agility: 4 Pulse Lasers
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops

Architects Fee: MCr 0.462   Cost in Quantity: MCr 36.920


Detailed Description

HULL
30.000 tons standard, 420.000 cubic meters, Airframe Flattened Sphere 
Configuration

CREW
Pilot, Gunner

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 4G Manuever, Power plant-11, 3.300 EP, Agility 4

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/3 Computer, Model/3 Flight Avionics, Model/3 Sensors, 
Model/3 Maser Communications

HARDPOINTS
1 Hardpoint

ARMAMENT
1 Triple Mixed Turret with: 1 Pulse Laser (Factor-2), 1 Missile Rack (Factor-
2).

DEFENCES
1 Sandcaster in the Mixed Turret, organised into 1 Battery (Factor-3), 
Armoured Hull (Factor-2)

CRAFT
None

FUEL
3.300 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
1 Small Craft Stateroom, 2 Acceleration Couches, 1 Ton of Missile 
Magazines (holding 20 missiles), 0.500 Ton Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 46.612 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 0.462), MCr 36.920 in 
Quantity (Hardpoints and Turrets charged)

CONSTRUCTION TIME
16 Weeks Singly, 13 Weeks in Quantity

Ship: Lifeboat
Class: Lifeboat
Type: Lifeboat
Architect: Standard
Tech Level: 13

USP
         QX-0201101-000000-00000-0 MCr 4.400 20 Tons
Bat Bear                           Crew: 1
Bat                                TL: 13

Cargo: 4 Emergency Low: 6 Fuel: 4.200 EP: 0.200 Agility: 1
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops

Architects Fee: MCr 0.044   Cost in Quantity: MCr 3.520


Detailed Description

HULL
20.000 tons standard, 280.000 cubic meters, Cone Configuration

CREW
Pilot

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 1G Manuever, Power plant-1, 0.200 EP, Agility 1

AVIONICS
Bridge, No Computer Installed

HARDPOINTS
None

ARMAMENT
None

DEFENCES
None

CRAFT
None

FUEL
4.200 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance, plus 4.000 tons 
of additional fuel)
On Board Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
2 Acceleration Couches, 2 Low Berths, 6 Emergency Low Berths, 4 Tons 
Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 4.444 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 0.044), MCr 3.520 in 
Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
11 Weeks Singly, 9 Weeks in Quantity


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 04:23:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Aug  2 03:23:53 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <sd494643.049@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
Message-ID: <3D4B05EA.8754.5198B91@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002, at 14:28, Jeff D. Greenly wrote:

> One need only to look at the Battle of the Atlantic to see how much of
> an effect esprit de corps and loyalty go towards men willingly going
> into grave danger. I may be slightly off on my numbers, but the U-Boat
> service saw the highest losses of ANY service branch, across all
> nationalities during WW II. Something like 80% of all U-boatmen were KIA
> towards the end of the war, with the average life expectancy being a
> week. 

True to a point. But there's a very important proviso. The average crew of a 
U-boat was around 40-50 IIRC. This provides a mass of esprit de corps to 
"steady" the crew. The individual members draw strength from each other, 
the presense of your comrades acts as a break on panic and provides a 
strong disincentive to running away. However in a fighter you probably are 
all alone, the nearest friendly is tens of kilometers away and there's 
nobody to see if you stand as a "hero" or run as a "coward".

Personally I don't think the massed fighter approach works over the long 
term due to the cost in highly trained crew. However, I can well see it being 
not that uncommon, especially when one side feels desperate.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 04:24:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Aug  2 03:24:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <F228Wv2vyWb6cxHKx7000010140@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B05EA.18849.5198B91@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002, at 15:57, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      "...although not as bad as the Swordfish(1)."

>      Please excuse me, I forgot to add the footnote.

> (1) - The Swordfishs' very obs0lescence may have actually helped it survive in
> battle.  A most likely apophrycal story from the Bismarck saga has the German
> AA fire missing the attacking Swordfish because the aircraft were moving too
> SLOW, the AA crews led their targets by too much.  Swordfish made their
> torpedo runs at ~90 mph and weather conditions could drop that speed even
> further.
>      The Swordfish may been viwed as a joke by other navies, it still got the
> job done at Taranto and with the Bismarck however.

Don't dis the Swordfish, it was one of the 2nd WW most successful ASW 
aircraft. They served with no less than 26 squadrons, remained in 
production till late 1944 and only retired from active service on 21st May 
1945. :*>

ObTrav: Never, never underestimate the value of a well engineered lower 
tech design. You write off the well proven technology of the previous 
generation at your own peril. The Swordfish outlasted her replacement and 
was better in her role (carrier based ASW) than any other allied aircraft


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 04:28:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Aug  2 03:28:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <99.2a2d475a.2a779a93@aol.com> <3D4A0109.D48E52E6@pobox.com> <005801c23a04$ec770b20$0112bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <006401c23a0f$3ca9da00$7400a8c0@matt>

MJ Dougherty wrote:
>> I agree that a sub-100dT fighter cannot carry a weapon which can
>> hurt a TL15 capital ship, mostly because of the difference in
>> computer size.  This is why the "fighters" in the smoke test were
>> actually 1000dT boats with factor-9 missile bays.
>>
>
> Huh? 1000 tons is an escort, or a frigate or something. But certainly
> not a fighter.

The House rule I use to allow Fighters to be more effective is to let
Squadrons be treated as Batteries. ie, each fighter in the squadron is the
equivalent of a turret in a battery, with corresponding increase in weapon
USP, at the penalty of fewer salvos. This represents the squadron acting in
a co-ordinated way to attack a single target, concentrating their fire on
one spot so as to overwhelm it. The capital ship firing on the attacking
squadron still has to target individual fighters. As fighters are destroyed,
recalculate the effective USP of the squadrons 'battery'

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 04:52:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 03:52:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com>

 >>  >Low-end ships so you can do all your jobs within your budget maybe?
 >>
 >> I understand that, but there's the question of what your enemy is doing.
 >> Consider the extreams -- if your goal is to win engagements then you'll
 want
 >> a few expensive capital ships, but if you want to "do all the jobs" then
 >> you'll want a herd of warm bodies (as it were).  Between the extreams is
 the
 >> balance -- but where is it?  I think it's way over in the "win
 engagements"
 >> side.
 >
 >Engagemnents of what sort? Enough commerce raiders can cripple your economy
 >(Battle of the Atlantic etc) despite your excellent battle fleet. If the
 >engagements you need to win are escort/raider ones, then you need many ships
 >to cover the area, but ones good enough to beat or deter the raiders.

A good point worthy of discussion.  I have commerce raiders, but I envision 
them as travelling in a single mass, outrunning and dodging attempts by 
serious fleet elements to pursue them (unless, of course, the raiders blunder 
into them).  Small patrols and escorts are never going to be able to deal 
with such a herd, while major patrols and escorts deployed everywhere will 
seriously impact the size of the remaining core fleet.  How serious is the 
trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took place because the small island 
of England was not self-sufficient in either agricultural or industrial 
matters, but I don't think this situation will arise on many _planets_.  If 
trade is truly a major issue and lifeline then a massed herd of raiders will 
be crippling regardless of any other fleet elements employed.  But I think 
most planets with populations sufficient to have significant trade 
connections will have huge internal capacites to produce what they need 
anyway, and huge reserves of whatever they have to import (consider our 
Strategic Oil Reserve).  I see raiders as nothing more than annoyance attacks 
-- they can't lay seiges, they can't do major battles, and they can't stay in 
any area too long or some task force will find them and kick their ass -- 
that can't be instantly responded to in an adequate manner.  You can't be 
strong everywhere, and if you try you'll be rolled up.  Further, if your 
opponent takes that tonnage that you devoted to patrols and escorts and uses 
it to build a major fleet element instead, that element will be able to 
stroll through the isolated patrols and escorts like a bull in a china shop, 
wasting the tonnage you devoted to them.

 >> If you "cover all the bases" with warm bodies but have to flee every
 >> time the heavyweight enemy shows up then what good is that?  There is no
 >> substitute for victory, and to get that victory you need the heavyweights
and
 >> you need more of them than your enemy.
 >
 >You need greater concentration of force at the critical point. That can be
 >done with less ships, better handled and supported.

I don't think you can get "greater concentration of force" with "less ships". 
 All other things being equal, if 1/3 of your fleet runs into 2/3 of the 
enemy fleet then you're gonna get smooshed.  Then all your patrols and 
escorts won't matter.

 >That said, victory is not necessarily gained by defeating the enemy battle
 >fleet. If you do that, but he scrubs your industrial worlds with planetary
 >raider ships, or kills your economy with commerce raiders, then you may not
 >have won at all.

True.  But several points.  1)  If all he has left is raiders, then you'll 
march into _his_ territory with some surviving unopposed capital ships while 
sending the rest after the raiders, who will be forced to continuously flee 
with no refuge.  2)  Major industrial worlds will have their own local 
defense forces, and no raider fleet I can imagine will be able to take on an 
AX (population A, tech (game tech level)) world's local defense force, so the 
majority of your population should be safe.  3)  How would you stop this 
anyway?  A large raider force is not expensive to build, but if you try to 
put anti-raider forces sufficient to engage such raiders at every possible 
point they may attack then you won't have much left on your front lines, and 
the enemy will wind up attacking your industrial worlds not with raiders but 
with capital ships.  4)  As for commerce interdiction it will be unpopular 
with the folks, but in my opinion not militarily significant.

 >> If by patrol you mean scouts, then yes.  But if you mean general policing
 >> then I'd think that would be a local police matter and not a fleet matter.
 >
 >I mean patrol ships to defeat piracy, commerce raiding and smuggling,

That's all local.  If a system is really strapped, I'd send some fleet 
escorts to help out.  War is not always imminent, after all.  Too, while the 
Imperium cares about some weapons, why should it care about the smuggling of 
anything else?  "Admiral!  Smugglers are transporting illegal cargos of 
cigarettes to Zivije!"  "Ensign, go there immediately.  Buy me a few packs."

 >to
 >catch enemy intelligence ships and recon vessels

I'd use scouts to watch them, and try to catch them on the way out -- if I 
thought they had relevant information.  What are they going to say?  "There's 
a planet here!"?  "There's some sort of secret facility over here!"?  "There 
were no ships in this system two months ago!"?  But frankly, a traitor 
civilian in a free trader or a seeker would be impossible to detect, and 
would provide just as much information.

 >to prevent the stockpiling of forward supply bases

Scouts would see the incoming traffic, and the fleet would send some elements 
to check it out.

 >to gain intelligence

Scouts again.

 >to show the flag and keep systems in line....

I'd use the regular fleet to do that.  "Join the Navy and see the world!"

It's getting late.  I hope I've said something useful with a minimum of 
"noise".

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 04:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 03:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <99.2a2d475a.2a779a93@aol.com> <3D4A0109.D48E52E6@pobox.com> <005801c23a04$ec770b20$0112bd50@martinjd> <006401c23a0f$3ca9da00$7400a8c0@matt>
Message-ID: <003201c23a14$66243100$7d03bd50@martinjd>

> >>
> >
> > Huh? 1000 tons is an escort, or a frigate or something. But certainly
> > not a fighter.
>
> The House rule I use to allow Fighters to be more effective is to let
> Squadrons be treated as Batteries. ie, each fighter in the squadron is the
> equivalent of a turret in a battery, with corresponding increase in weapon
> USP, at the penalty of fewer salvos.

Why do you want fighters to be more effective?

>This represents the squadron acting in
> a co-ordinated way to attack a single target, concentrating their fire on
> one spot so as to overwhelm it. The capital ship firing on the attacking
> squadron still has to target individual fighters. As fighters are
destroyed,
> recalculate the effective USP of the squadrons 'battery'

I see the concept, though you'd have to simulate C3 breakdowns, loss of
cohesion etc

>
> Matt
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 05:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Rowse)
Date: Fri Aug  2 04:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Blowing holes in Japan (was " Re Patton")
Message-ID: <F6qF77mNl6ahF9JckUL00023608@hotmail.com>

Gentles, I believe part of the rationale (if such is really possible) behind 
dropping the nuclear weapons on Japan was that the person[1] running the 
country refused to believe that the Americans would have the capacity (moral 
or technological) to defeat the "honorable" Japanese nation.
Unfortunately, the only way to get through his racism and bigotry  - and 
show him that he *would* not win by forcew of arms - was to kill thousands 
of "innocent" civilians.  Whilst such a move is horrific for us to 
contemplate today, remember that the circumstances then were a little 
different...

[1]IIRC, Emporer Hirohito - who continued to see *absolutely nothing wrong* 
in the abuses his soldiers inflicted on prisoners until the day he died...

Jeff (aka Captain Chicken, leg-end in his own lunchbox).

"The party waits until it hears the pre-arranged signal - a scream - then 
decides it must be headed in the wrong direction and leaves Jackie to her 
fate..."

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 05:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Aug  2 04:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <99.2a2d475a.2a779a93@aol.com> <3D4A0109.D48E52E6@pobox.com> <005801c23a04$ec770b20$0112bd50@martinjd> <006401c23a0f$3ca9da00$7400a8c0@matt> <003201c23a14$66243100$7d03bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <00a601c23a14$be1ddbe0$7400a8c0@matt>

MJ Dougherty wrote:
>>> Huh? 1000 tons is an escort, or a frigate or something. But
>>> certainly not a fighter.
>>
>> The House rule I use to allow Fighters to be more effective is to let
>> Squadrons be treated as Batteries. ie, each fighter in the squadron
>> is the equivalent of a turret in a battery, with corresponding
>> increase in weapon USP, at the penalty of fewer salvos.
>
> Why do you want fighters to be more effective?

So that they can have an outside possibility of damaging Capital ships at
high TL

>> This represents the squadron acting in
>> a co-ordinated way to attack a single target, concentrating their
>> fire on one spot so as to overwhelm it. The capital ship firing on
>> the attacking squadron still has to target individual fighters. As
>> fighters are destroyed, recalculate the effective USP of the
>> squadrons 'battery'
>
> I see the concept, though you'd have to simulate C3 breakdowns, loss
> of cohesion etc

Sure, just as soon as we do the same for the escorting PD ships of the
defending Fleet...

HG is pretty abstract anyway, so this level of detail is unnecessary IMHO.
All I am doing is letting Fighters act like Turrets. If several turrets can
concentrate their fire to increase their effectiveness, why can't several
fighters?

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 05:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Brian Caball)
Date: Fri Aug  2 04:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com>
References: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com>
Message-ID: <02080212144000.29943@avlendris>

> How
> serious is the trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took place because
> the small island of England was not self-sufficient in either agricultural
> or industrial matters, but I don't think this situation will arise on many
> _planets_.  If trade is truly a major issue and lifeline then a massed herd
> of raiders will be crippling regardless of any other fleet elements
> employed.  But I think most planets with populations sufficient to have
> significant trade connections will have huge internal capacites to produce
> what they need anyway, and huge reserves of whatever they have to import
> (consider our Strategic Oil Reserve).  

If planets are so self sufficient, then why does TNE describe planets failing 
because they were cut off from interstellar trade?

-Brian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 05:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 04:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com>
Message-ID: <004c01c23a1c$26d3b860$7d03bd50@martinjd>

>
> A good point worthy of discussion.  I have commerce raiders, but I
envision
> them as travelling in a single mass, outrunning and dodging attempts by
> serious fleet elements to pursue them (unless, of course, the raiders
blunder
> into them).  Small patrols and escorts are never going to be able to deal
> with such a herd, while major patrols and escorts deployed everywhere will
> seriously impact the size of the remaining core fleet.

If you spread out a mix of powerful and less powerful commerce raiders,
you'll pull more fleet assets away. That's half the point.


>How serious is the
> trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took place because the small
island
> of England was not self-sufficient in either agricultural or industrial
> matters, but I don't think this situation will arise on many _planets_.

It'll impact revenue, which hurts over time. More importantly, it hurts
civilian morale and causes demands for proteciton. And you can damage the
logistics train - if the enemy is missile-heavy, he has to get them to the
battle area...

>If
> trade is truly a major issue and lifeline then a massed herd of raiders
will
> be crippling regardless of any other fleet elements employed.

Until it inevitably gets squashed. Dispersed raiding works better, other
than for targeted strikes, say on a critical system to massacre the
concentration of merhcant shipping there.

>But I think
> most planets with populations sufficient to have significant trade
> connections will have huge internal capacites to produce what they need
> anyway, and huge reserves of whatever they have to import (consider our
> Strategic Oil Reserve).  I see raiders as nothing more than annoyance
attacks
> -- they can't lay seiges, they can't do major battles, and they can't stay
in
> any area too long or some task force will find them and kick their ass --
> that can't be instantly responded to in an adequate manner.  You can't be
> strong everywhere, and if you try you'll be rolled up.  Further, if your
> opponent takes that tonnage that you devoted to patrols and escorts and
uses
> it to build a major fleet element instead, that element will be able to
> stroll through the isolated patrols and escorts like a bull in a china
shop,
> wasting the tonnage you devoted to them.

Assuming he's rich enough to afford a fleet like that. Guerre de Course has
always been the weaker nation's option.

>
>  >> If you "cover all the bases" with warm bodies but have to flee every
>  >> time the heavyweight enemy shows up then what good is that?  There is
no
>  >> substitute for victory, and to get that victory you need the
heavyweights
> and
>  >> you need more of them than your enemy.
>  >
>  >You need greater concentration of force at the critical point. That can
be
>  >done with less ships, better handled and supported.
>
> I don't think you can get "greater concentration of force" with "less
ships".

I have 6 ships, you have 12. I draw 8 of your ships away with a feint, and
gain local superiority. You sent them all? Great. I smash your base. You
sent none? Well, if my recon is up to it I'll know. Next time I just smash
something elsewhere , maybe with pairs of my ships, while you sit tight and
wait for the big clash at JUtland.

>  All other things being equal, if 1/3 of your fleet runs into 2/3 of the
> enemy fleet then you're gonna get smooshed.  Then all your patrols and
> escorts won't matter.

Unless my ships are better/more survivable/able to break off after drawing
you into a predcitable position, so others of my ships can smash stuff
elsewhere.


>
>  >That said, victory is not necessarily gained by defeating the enemy
battle
>  >fleet. If you do that, but he scrubs your industrial worlds with
planetary
>  >raider ships, or kills your economy with commerce raiders, then you may
not
>  >have won at all.
>
> True.  But several points.  1)  If all he has left is raiders, then you'll
> march into _his_ territory with some surviving unopposed capital ships
while
> sending the rest after the raiders, who will be forced to continuously
flee
> with no refuge.

Yes, though you'll have to fight his system defense monitors and meson guns
sites while his raiders play hell with your logistics and maul damaged ships
headed home for repair.

2)  Major industrial worlds will have their own local
> defense forces, and no raider fleet I can imagine will be able to take on
an
> AX (population A, tech (game tech level)) world's local defense force, so
the
> majority of your population should be safe.

Yes. But your logistics and trade may not be. And there is still room for
deception and assymetric attack.

3)  How would you stop this
> anyway?  A large raider force is not expensive to build, but if you try to
> put anti-raider forces sufficient to engage such raiders at every possible
> point they may attack then you won't have much left on your front lines,
and
> the enemy will wind up attacking your industrial worlds not with raiders
but
> with capital ships.

That was my point. Chasing down raiders requires capable ships and many of
them. Your all-dreadnought fleet can't cover enough ground to do it. You
need cruisers and second-line battleships (the Type R battleships did a lot
of Atlantic escort work, and were a powerful deterrernt to surface raiders,
even though they were sometimes outclassed). Point is, you need adequate
low-end escorts and commerce proteciton ships, else your powerful fleet ends
up guarding nothing, with no logistics support top keep it in being.

4)  As for commerce interdiction it will be unpopular
> with the folks, but in my opinion not militarily significant.

Military operations have two axis of atack - they can attack the Means of
the enemy to make war, or the Will to do so. Commerce raiding is a direct
attack on the Will (unhappy people yelling for peace) and an indirect one on
the Means (logistics). It works.

>
>  >> If by patrol you mean scouts, then yes.  But if you mean general
policing
>  >> then I'd think that would be a local police matter and not a fleet
matter.
>  >
>  >I mean patrol ships to defeat piracy, commerce raiding and smuggling,
>
> That's all local.  If a system is really strapped, I'd send some fleet
> escorts to help out.

You have enough of those? RW experience has shown that there are NEVER
enough, and I seem to remember you quoting a very low percentage devoted to
escorts.

>War is not always imminent, after all.  Too, while the
> Imperium cares about some weapons, why should it care about the smuggling
of
> anything else?  "Admiral!  Smugglers are transporting illegal cargos of
> cigarettes to Zivije!"  "Ensign, go there immediately.  Buy me a few
packs."

These activities undermine the commerce of the Imperium, and its ovbserved
rule of law. Dangerous.

>
>  >to
>  >catch enemy intelligence ships and recon vessels
>
> I'd use scouts to watch them, and try to catch them on the way out -- if I
> thought they had relevant information.  What are they going to say?
"There's
> a planet here!"?  "There's some sort of secret facility over here!"?
"There
> were no ships in this system two months ago!"?  But frankly, a traitor
> civilian in a free trader or a seeker would be impossible to detect, and
> would provide just as much information.

Your scouts can be killed by armed recon frigates, or lost in Jump. You
cannot guarantee catching even some recon recon ships. A Jump-6 recon
frigate can bring timely information to a raider squadron on escort and
patrol deployments. Yes, there is a comm lag and thus plenty of fog. But
it's better than nothing. Free Trader traitors might also be useful, but
slower.

>
>  >to prevent the stockpiling of forward supply bases
>
> Scouts would see the incoming traffic, and the fleet would send some
elements
> to check it out.
>
>  >to gain intelligence
>
> Scouts again.

Can your scout ships movve fast enough? Are they survivable enough, and wll
armed to deal with immeduiate threats as they flee? If they are, then
they're naval units.


>
>  >to show the flag and keep systems in line....
>
> I'd use the regular fleet to do that.  "Join the Navy and see the world!"

So your dreadnoughts tour en masse, or independently? You're dispersing your
capital ships?

>
> It's getting late.  I hope I've said something useful with a minimum of
> "noise".

Let's turn this on its head. Can you explain how this model of yours
works...? How do you plan to fight a war with it?










> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 05:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 04:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <99.2a2d475a.2a779a93@aol.com> <3D4A0109.D48E52E6@pobox.com> <005801c23a04$ec770b20$0112bd50@martinjd> <006401c23a0f$3ca9da00$7400a8c0@matt> <003201c23a14$66243100$7d03bd50@martinjd> <00a601c23a14$be1ddbe0$7400a8c0@matt>
Message-ID: <005901c23a1d$16700d60$7d03bd50@martinjd>

> > Why do you want fighters to be more effective?
>
> So that they can have an outside possibility of damaging Capital ships at
> high TL

And again, why do you want this? Barring me swallowing some and suffering
some strange kind of poisoning, no amount of flies can beat me in a straight
fight. My feeling is that fightrers are good for screening and keeping
merchies in line. Big ships are for killing big ships.

> >
> > I see the concept, though you'd have to simulate C3 breakdowns, loss
> > of cohesion etc
>
> Sure, just as soon as we do the same for the escorting PD ships of the
> defending Fleet...

Indeed, though coordinaitng a useful fighter attack requires external comms.
Escorts can operate on internal comms (hard to jam) and even independently,
can be useful if the captains are smart. Uncoordinated fighters are just as
big mess.

>
> HG is pretty abstract anyway, so this level of detail is unnecessary IMHO.
> All I am doing is letting Fighters act like Turrets. If several turrets
can
> concentrate their fire to increase their effectiveness, why can't several
> fighters?

Becuase turrets are controlled with internal comms, hardwired through the
ship, while ifghters have to talk externally and are subject to jamming or
other problems. And becuase you don't get a battery of turrests scattering
due to evasion and having to reform.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <a6.29f91dee.2a7a2a7a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B1E74.16706.D41575@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 2:08, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> This tactic is presented not as a desperation move, but an ordinary
> one to be implemented if said navy can put up with it.  To which I
> responded that no fighter pilot community would tolerate it.  Even
> if the attacking squadron is originally 1000, after two capital
> ships they'll be combat ineffective using this tactic, and there
> will be NO volunteers to replace them until the tactic is discarded. 

That's contrary to history - in WWII many units in all combatants 
armies took those sorts of casualties, and New Zealand, the USA, 
Britain and the USSR (and probably others) all continued to have people 
volunteering throughout the war.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:07:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:07:50 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <91.20daf914.2a7a2267@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B1E74.16846.D4152F@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 1:34, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
 
> Will they come apart if they take 98% casualties between breakfast and lunch? 
>  That is on a level with the original post that started this discussion.

No it wasn't, because the original post didn't specify a proportion, 
merely an absolute quantity.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:08:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:08:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Kit (as our British friends say)
In-Reply-To: <d4.1b055146.2a7a030a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B1E74.26826.D414E9@localhost>

On 31 Jul 2002 at 23:20, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> >In boot camp, when I received my first pay statement (just a receipt, we
> >didn't get any actual checks until graduation) I was shocked to find out
> >that I was actually in the hole to Uncle Sam. I had no idea that every bit
> >of equipment (except loaners like web gear, canteens, and weapons) came out
> >of our own pockets.
> 
> One of my favorite bits of reading is a papyrus detailing the pay record of a 
> Roman soldier in Egypt ca. 250 AD There are deductions for uniform and 
> equipment, mandatory deposit to the unit savings bank, contributions to the 
> burial fund (insurance) and the unit Saturnalia feast (held around the same 
> time as Christmas), and stoppages to pay for a wine bar demolished in the 
> course of a brawl. Every soldier I have ever shown it to marvels at the line 
> on the bottom:
> 
> "Copy 2 of 3, for unit archives"

Doesn't surprise me in the slightest. Those old Sumerian clay tablets 
are all (or almost all) warehousing records and accounts, and the 
Mykenean writing recovered from their palaces is all the same.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:09:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:09:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com>
References: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020802220750.A12763@freeman.little-possums.net>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> How serious is the trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took
> place because the small island of England was not self-sufficient in
> either agricultural or industrial matters, but I don't think this
> situation will arise on many _planets_.

Not for the planets of any meaningful military capacity, anyway.  99%
of the production of the Imperium comes from 10% of the planets.  The
combined trade of those planets with every other planet (including
each other) is about 0.2% of their combined economies.  That means
that whatever they import can't be worth much.

Minor backwaters on "major" trade routes might be crippled.  That
might have political effect on the state as a whole, but no direct
economic or military effect.

The trade situation in the Imperium is *drastically* unlike that
between any group of nations on Earth.  Trade between nations on Earth
is a significant fraction of total economic activity, I would guess
roughly 30-40% based on data from the CIA factbook.  In the Imperium,
trade is less than 0.4%.  If you could disrupt *all* of it, it would
probably have less effect than capturing or destroying the productive
capability of a single hi-pop world.


In short, I agree.  England was hundreds of times more dependent upon
trade than are any of the important planets in Traveller.
Furthermore, raiding ships in Traveller have to contend with system
defences.  There are no mid-ocean battles in Traveller; you're always
fighting in someone's backyard.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:11:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:11:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <8d.1bfa1383.2a7a4253@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B1F74.9458.D7FBED@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 3:50, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>  >> He will shuck and jive, pretend equipment failures, or run.  He most
>  >> certainly won't volunteer for that sort of duty again.
>  >
>  >That's a pretty low opinion of a fellow officer
> 
> A fellow officer, he says!  They wouldn't be officers, they'd be cannon 
> fodder.  And they'd know it.

Interesting that you see figther pilots as having the state of non-
cannon fodder as their natural state, and that they'd be scarce 
resources. I can't see them as being any more or less expendable than 
any other ship crew, as all crew positions that are combat relevant are 
skilled. I also find your position interesting in that it assumes that 
highly skilled people are 'more cautious' (to be polite) than those 
that are supposedly less highly trained/skilled (like grunts).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] [OT] Starship Troopers (was: Comic Book Battles)
In-Reply-To: <B9681E36.3499%shadowjack@skyhighway.com>
Message-ID: <20802.043414.9M3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
>> Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 17:25:19
>
>> Virginia Heinlein agreed to a different script, and was shafted.  She told
>> the SF community that she came close to suing the studio until it was made
>> clear that she would lose.  She appeared on screen at a WorldCon and
>> apologized to the assembled fans for not handling the property better..
>> then set off a near riot by casully mentioning that the same mistakes will
>> not be made with the "Stranger in a Strange Land" movie...
>
> I'm trying to imagine that as a movie, and just can't quite get it through
> my head. Are we talking Hollywood here? "Stranger in a Strange Land"?
> Grokking and all that?

Think "sex and naked chicks". :-|
 
> Gee, who'll they get for "Stranger"?

The first report I recall regarding someone tryng to get backers was
back in 1970...

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:14:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:14:39 2002
Subject: [TML] [OT] Starship Troopers (was: Comic Book Battles)
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEDJEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20802.043609.9X7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Virginia Heinlein agreed to a different script, and was shafted.  She told
>> the SF community that she came close to suing the studio until it was made
>> clear that she would lose.  She appeared on screen at a WorldCon and
>> apologized to the assembled fans for not handling the property better..
>> then set off a near riot by casully mentioning that the same mistakes will
>> not be made with the "Stranger in a Strange Land" movie...
>
> I wonder if she sold all rights or not. In other words could a decent
> filmmaker take another crack at ST in a few years or not?

Not "she". The movie rights were likely sold *decades* ago.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:16:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:16:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <02080212144000.29943@avlendris>
References: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com> <02080212144000.29943@avlendris>
Message-ID: <20020802221422.B12763@freeman.little-possums.net>

Brian Caball wrote:
> If planets are so self sufficient, then why does TNE describe
> planets failing because they were cut off from interstellar trade?

If external trade is so essential to the continued survival of
planets, why is it worth less than 0.4% of the economy?  These two
facts need to be reconciled before any answer can be attempted.

Personally, my opinion is that TNE needed an apocalypse and lack of
trade was just an excuse.  Virus infecting the control systems of high
tech worlds down all the way down to the level of toasters clearly
wasn't enough.  Probably just my personal dislike for post-disaster
settings showing, though.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <005201c23944$b5f3ac40$6e09bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3D4B24F2.20758.ED70D3@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 11:17, MJ Dougherty wrote:

> IE Units will NOT enter routine combat situations where they know
> they will be massacred. 

I think it depends a lot on the chances of success and the value the 
soldier (or pilots, or whatevers) place on that success. If the plan 
calls for the certain death of a good proportion of a unit for a low 
chance of success for an unimportant objective there'll be problems. 
If, OTOH the plan is for several hundred fighters to attack a 
battleship and it's guaranteed that the BB will die for the cost of a 
hundred fighters I think you'd have plenty of volunteers as long as 
there was some benefit in killing that BB (ie it didn't have so many 
friends that your side just couldn't kill them all, etc.)


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:34:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:34:41 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <m3ptx2twnf.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <e6.2be0ca41.2a7a3051@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B24F2.27371.ED703D@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 9:40, Robert Uhl wrote:

> I'll say again: it depends on the size of the wave.  How large were
> the British waves in WWII when 100-200 a night were lost?

Those losses were from the big '1000 bomber' raids. Smaller raids lost 
less aircraft in absolute terms, but often more as a percentage.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:35:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:35:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Kit (as our British friends say)
In-Reply-To: <02080113001703.22132@avlendris>
References: <20020801115445.5089.qmail@web11005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B24F2.24886.ED6FF7@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 13:00, Brian Caball wrote:

> 
> > > "Copy 2 of 3, for unit archives"
> >   OMG!!!!! The, the, the......[sigh]......
> 
> This seems to be flying right over my head... is that what the modern 
> equivalents also say or something?

Just about every piece of paper in the military has three or four 
copies of it made. One for the recipient, one for the issuing body's 
archives and one for the parent body's records, plus for many things 
one for military intelligence. The MI's copies of battalion paperwork 
used to be pink, and we got one of just about everything. Right handy 
for working out what was going to happen next - when battalion suddenly 
gets a whole lot of tropical gear you know you're not going to be going 
to Antarctica (in theory anyway).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:37:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:37:04 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <007201c23945$6b27eae0$6e09bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3D4B24F2.5802.ED708D@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 11:22, MJ Dougherty wrote:

> 
> > >Try the loss rates for some of the RAF's 1000 bomber night attacks,
> >  >then. Over 100 bombers in a night wasn't exceptional (IIRC some were
> >  >near the 200 mark) and while that rate was unsustainable it wasn't for
> >  >lack of volunteers, but because aircraft take time to make and crews
> >  >take time to train.
> >
> > Imminent threats to national survival, of course, change casualty rate
> > acceptance.  But the original subject was hundreds of fighter pilots for
> the
> > one or two lucky shots to kill a capital ship as a standard by-the-book
> > tactic.  Never happen.
> 
> Besides, bomber crews did so many missions and then OUT. Your odds of
> getting killed on any one of those missions were relatively small, but they
> stacked up. However, you *knew* you'd probably get out before your number
> came up. Whether it was true or not is another matter, but you knew.... if
> the odds had been 50% chance of death per mission, and you'll keep on being
> sent in again and again, well...

Well the rates for night flights over Germany were up around the 10%+ 
mark for some nights, and were almost never under 5%. I forget how many 
missions made a tour in the RAF, but it was enough that not finshing a 
tour was quite normal. Despite this many crewmen signed up for tour 
after tour until they were shot down or broke under the stress.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:37:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff D. Greenly)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:37:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #859 - 22 msgs
Message-ID: <sd4a444e.089@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>

>Message: 2
>From: Flykiller@aol.com 
>Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 03:11:16 EDT
>Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
>To: tml@travellercentral.com 
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com 
>
>>Would a world that has 80% of its surface covered by water, a dense
>>nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, and one moon that is large enough to
exert a
>>tidal effect tend to be more or less climatically active? Assume
>>moderate (terran-normal) vulcanism and a fairly non-polluting early
TL
>>aqua/agricultural society. Also assume standard polar ice caps and
>>rotation around 20 deg. off the plane of the ecliptic. I'll welcome
any
>>and all comments...
>
>I've often wondered along those lines.  If you look at our system the
size 2 
>moon is at the very limit (book 6) of its possible orbit, yet when
generating 
>traveller systems it is quite possible to have much larger moons
orbiting 
>much closer to their world.  The tides would be huge.  I would imagine
there 
>would be very few costal cities throughout most systems, because
they'd be 
>flooded by 50 foot tides.
>
>As I understand it weather is caused mostly by heat transfer across a

>planet's surface.  Since your world has a 20 degree axial tilt then I
would 
>think its weather would be about comparable to Terra's.  If denser
atmosphere 
>holds more heat then it should be more active.

Mr. Fly,

Thanks for replying... I haven't generated all of the other system
details, so I have a few variables still missing. The planet that I am
currently working on, Knorbes (Regina/SM), is a tough world to do
because it's geography is very Terran, it's rich, agricultural, and has
80 million-plus people governed by a civil serrvice bureaucracy, and is
at tech level 2, which isn't easy to reconcile. The big hangup for me is
(always) the physical science. You see, I spent most of my time in the
Liberal Arts when I was in school, and it did me an irrepairable brain
injury. Traveller is therapy for me now. Anyway, it sounds to me like
you are on the right track. The questions I have are, does a dense
atmosphere hold more energy? Wouldn't it take that much more energy to
"move" a dense atmosphere into weather changes? Would the world's oceans
act as thermal "batteries", and if so, how would they affect the
weather? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the matter...

Jeff

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:38:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:38:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <F228Wv2vyWb6cxHKx7000010140@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B2568.16012.EF3EB3@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 15:57, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

> 
>      "...although not as bad as the Swordfish(1)."
> 
> 
> Ladies and Gentlemen,
> 
>      Please excuse me, I forgot to add the footnote.
> 
> 
> (1) - The Swordfishs' very obs0lescence may have actually helped it survive 
> in battle.  A most likely apophrycal story from the Bismarck saga has the 
> German AA fire missing the attacking Swordfish because the aircraft were 
> moving too SLOW, the AA crews led their targets by too much.  Swordfish made 
> their torpedo runs at ~90 mph and weather conditions could drop that speed 
> even further.
>      The Swordfish may been viwed as a joke by other navies, it still got 
> the job done at Taranto and with the Bismarck however.

I'm pretty sure that their slow speed wasn't a factor in the Bismark 
action, but it was a factor in the 'Channel Dash' (as was piss poor 
communications on the British side).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <2d16412cfe49.2cfe492d1641@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <3D4B26E5.29810.F51057@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 20:20, john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:

> OTOH, the Stringbag was never sent into battle against carrier-based 
> fighters.  The TBD pilots at Midway, meanwhile, had to try to survive 
> without fighter cover against the A6M Zero.  Hardly a fair contest (of 
> course, any military leader who tries to fight war _fairly_ isn't doing 
> the job correctly).

However Swordfish did go up against serious air-cover during the 
'Channel Dash' by Scharnhost and Gneisenau and while their losses 
weren't insignificant they weren't as high as they might have been, 
largely because they were flying so slowly that the German fighters 
couldn't line up and get decent firing positions on them. The Beauforts 
which were somewhat faster and had a (slightly) better defensive 
armament took quite a hammering, IIRC.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Character Conversions
Message-ID: <20020802124732.56CF54505@mo130uhou.palm.net>



David Smart <jurrubin@earthlink.net> wrote:
[snip]
> I've just finished converting a Zho generated from the CT 
>Zho supplement into GT and he's practically god-like (rolled incredibly well 
>back in '87 for psionics). 
[snip] 
>Then again, I've played this guy through 5 long-term campaigns. Great for solo 
>runs but a bit overpowering with other, more youthful characters. 

Sounds like a great reoccuring villian.

----------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere. 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 06:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 05:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CDE@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <3D4B28F8.948.FD2916@localhost>

On 1 Aug 2002 at 16:42, Hurrel, Brian wrote:

> "No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy."
> 
> I'm paraphrasing, and can't remember who said this. Maybe Clausewitz(SP?).

Moltke, IIRC, but it's probably about as old as warfare itself.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 07:16:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Fri Aug  2 06:16:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020802092329.00a31a10@mail.buffnet.net>

Has anyone noted the set up with regards to the number of starports that 
can produce starships versus those that can only builld system ships?  And 
to make matters worse, there aren't that many high tech star ports around


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 07:17:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Marsh)
Date: Fri Aug  2 06:17:06 2002
Subject: [TML] re: juries
Message-ID: <F91hrbvkBs9XMgFNhPt000249a8@hotmail.com>

I have served on a number of juries here in the good 'ol USA (1 civil, 2 
criminal) and in general have always been impressed by how careful and 
deliberate people have been in trying to be fair as well as seek justice 
within the constraints of the case as it is given. I have always come out of 
the process feeling much better about the US jury system. I was on one drug 
case where we just KNEW the guy was guilty but the state failed to prove the 
case beyond a reasonable doubt so we could not find him guilty. The cops 
just didn't get the goods on him.


>From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>To: "Traveller-Digest" <tml@travellercentral.com>
>Subject: [TML] re:  juries
>Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 15:53:12 -0700
>
> >From: Flykiller@aol.com
>
>someone wrote:
> >Amateur juries
> >seem to me to be ill equipped to handle many kinds of cases.
>
>Flykiller@aol.com replied:
> >True.  And irrelevant to why they exist.  Juries aren't meant to be
> >professional, quite the opposite.  Juries are meant to be a last and 
>final
> >check and balance against governmental power over individual citizens.  
>The
> >government can't put anyone in jail unless they can get a bunch of 
>amateur
> >citizens to agree.  It's preferable to the alternative.
>
>If you can't explain your case so that twelve ordinary people understand 
>it,
>then you don't understand your case adequately.
>
>--Glenn
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml




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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 07:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  2 06:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <200208021317.LXD04141@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>
>In short, I agree.  England was hundreds of times more 
>dependent upon trade than are any of the important planets 
>in Traveller.
>Furthermore, raiding ships in Traveller have to contend with 
>system defences.  There are no mid-ocean battles in 
>Traveller; you're always fighting in someone's backyard.

IMHO, in major systems that are hi-pop, hi-tech, with large 
industrial bases, the critical resources are on more than 
just one planet - there are probably mining bases all over 
the system - the gas giants must be defended to keep enemy 
ships from refuelling - and for economical reasons, there may 
be more than one high port.

A large system like this would have to maintain a 
considerable number of ships in order to defend these assets, 
and protect shipping between these points.  Convoys may be 
forced to use jump ships to do intrasystem jumps to avoid 
raiders, and ships inbound/outbound from the system would 
have to jump at the 100D limit without fail after being 
escorted the entire distance to and from the port.

In essence, laying siege to such a system might first mean 
whittling down the system defense boats and local fighters 
with fighter raids and light commerce raiders.  You might, 
after a time, be left only with your larger monitors, port 
defenses, and planetary defense sites.  Ships as small as 
fighters may also lay mines on courses to sweep through 
traffic areas.  I would bet that for such an advanced system, 
while it might well be able to subsist on its own, it won't 
profit as much, especially if it engages in trade with a 
nearby world of similar stature.  It would even affect local 
trade, and local merchant shipping would be affected, even if 
losses were light.

A continuous series of light hit and run raids would force 
diversion of assets you would ordinarily use elsewhere, or 
force the construction and maintenance of substantial non-
jump forces.  If you chose to ignore the raiding on the idea 
that it doesn't affect your economy too much, the locals who 
live there might be of another opinion.  It would also invite 
a full scale assault after a time.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 08:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christopher Pratt)
Date: Fri Aug  2 07:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Warships
References: <b4.f32c32a.2a76d569@aol.com> <3D487967.3734.F911EB@localhost>
Message-ID: <043b01c23a2f$bc26f9a0$1f9e15ac@warrior>

> Firstly, Planets are big, have vast reserves of power, and can have have
an
> effective armarment far beyond that of even the largest fleet. Secondly,
> working around a planet is the space equivlent of naval "confined waters".
> Maneuver is severely restricted and ranges are short. These two things
> mean that interface combat around a well defended world will be brutal and
> any vessel not specifically designed for it will become a glowing hulk
very
> quickly. Of course the problem is that such vessels have limited
> usefulness outside their designed role and virtually none in peacetime.
>

This brings up one of my revelations about strategic combat in traveller.
After realizing this, it occurred to the that strategic warfare functions a
lot like strategic warfare in medieval of renaissance times.  I.E. where
defense is stronger than offense.  Medieval or Renaissance armies almost
never fought battles.  Battles are dicey affairs where things can go either
way.  Nobody wants that.  Mostly the armies would lay siege to castles and
fortresses, taking them slowly by starvation or rarely, quickly by storm.

I imagine that to large insteller states at war with one and other in
Traveller would operate the same way.  Nobody wants to get into a pitched
fleet battle unless he or she has a clear and obvious advantage.  Most of
the time the fleets jump in system, establish a blockade, and threaten drop
big ass rocks on a world to try to arrange a surrender.  If the world
doesn't surrender, you either bombard/assault (I.e. storm) or blockade and
wait them out (I.e. starve).


later
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Pratt
cdpratt@gatecom.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 08:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Aug  2 07:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Blowing holes in Japan (was " Re Patton")
Message-ID: <F2374oW3zJzsGOJZ6Fz00024494@hotmail.com>

From: "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com>

     "[1]IIRC, Emporer Hirohito - who continued to see *absolutely nothing 
wrong* in the abuses his soldiers inflicted on prisoners until the day he 
died..."


Mr. Rowse,

     The behavior of the Japanese military in WW2 is one of the least 
studied aspects of that conflict.  During Japan's rise to first a regional, 
then a hemispheric power, her armed forces were consistently praised by 
observers for their model behavior.  Both the IJA and IJN recieved this 
praise during the Sino-Japanese and Russo-Japanese wars and during WW1.
     When they began to invade and occupy China proper in the early 30's, 
the wheels seemed to come off however.  Japanese troops were soon notorious 
for their behavior.  None of their actions needs repeating here, but they 
equalled, if not exceeded, those of the Nazis for ferocity, if not 
organization.
     Still, there were isolated examples of Japanese units behaving as their 
fathers and grandfathers may have.  During the Leyte Gulf brawl, various USN 
DDs and DEs sacrificed themselves so that the CVEs of Taffy 3 could flee 
from the BBs and CAs of the IJN's Central Force.  The crew of one CE, still 
clinging to the wreckage of their ship, reported that the crew of an IJN CA 
passing by MANNED THE RAILS and saluted them.  However, the crew of another 
sunken CE was sprayed with MG and pom-pom fire as an IJN warship passed.
     IMHO, Hirohito should have mounted the scaffold ahead of Tojo.  He was 
intimately involved in the planning and operation of both the China and 
Pacific wars.  If SCAP needed the stability an emperor brought to Japan, 
then an infant, with a regent, should have been installed on the throne.(1)
     One fact that people hashing out the 1945 A-bomb decision tend to 
forget is that the US was reading most of Japan's diplomatic and political 
dispatches in real time.  The US knew in August of '45 that the Imperial War 
Cabinet was still adament about continuing the war and was taking 
precautions to do just that.  They still had 5 million men in uniform in on 
the Asian mainland and were beginning to shift them to the home islands to 
meet Operations Cornet and Olympic.
     Even after the SECOND use of the bomb, at Nagasaki, the Imperial War 
Cabinet was deadlocked on the question to surrender.  Hirohito had to cast 
the tie-breaking vote, only the second time in modern Imperial Japanese that 
the emperor had had to vote at all.(2)
     Once Hirohito's surrender speech had been recorded for broadcast, a 
cabal of army officers still came within a whisker of seizing and destroying 
that record.
     An invasion of the Home Islands may not have resulted in the one 
million Allied casulties bandied about, but it still would have been costly. 
  Occupation would have been costly still.  The Japanese, unlike the Nazis, 
had made real plans and provisions for a post-surrender terrorist/resistance 
campaign.
     An Allied invasion would have also included the USSR.  There could have 
been a Tokyo wall to match the one in Berlin.  Today, Japan could be 
struggling to assimilate and rebuild Hokkaido and the northern half of 
Honshu, just as the Germans are still trying to deal with the eastern 
portions of their recently reunited nation.
     Also, an Allied/USSR invasion in 1945 would mean that the entire Korean 
penninsular would now be under the control of the freaks in Pyongyang.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

(1) The Allies had the "recent" (1919) example of Imperial Germany in their 
minds.  An infant grandson of Kaiser Bill installed with a regent may have 
helped the post-WW1 governments of Germany with their problems of internal 
credibility.

(2) The only other time the Emperor had voted, IIRC, was to break the tie 
for the adoption of the Imperial Constitution during the Meiji era.

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 08:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Maksim-Smelchak)
Date: Fri Aug  2 07:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"
In-Reply-To: <151.11ceca62.2a7b936d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPIEEGEDAA.max200@lanset.com>

>>> "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!" >>>

Under the rules of war, we've been discussing, if an enemy intentionally
builds fortifications or other military structures among a civilian
populance, then that enemy becomes rssponsible for the safety of those
aforementioned civilians. If those civilians are actively and willfully
supporting the enemy, then they are no longer considered noncombatants. So,
it IS Al Quaida's fault and responsibility if the US intentionally seeks to
bomb a legitimate military target that Al Qaida has hidden behind a human
shield.

Like someone mentioned earlier, barbarians (or terrorists in our case)
follow no rules, regulations, or niceties. However, we still follow those
rules in the hopes that the enemy might eventually see that war can become a
little less horrible (or barbaric) if we avoid the very worst that war can
bring (biological weapons, chemical weapons, rapine, etc.).

I don't blame the Israelis, the US, India, or any other nation if they incur
civilian casualties to destroy enemies who cravenly use the populations that
they claim their violence advocates as human shields.

On another point, I wouldn't support the dehumanization of another people,
but I also don't support covering up inhuman acts of an enemy for
"humanistic reasons" such as the media mostly forgetting to report on
Palestinian celebrations every time innocent babies and women are killed by
terrorist bombs in the US, Israel, India, or elsewhere. Granted that the
Palestinian Arab thugs threaten reporters with their lives and confiscate
media materials, but there is an element of will involved with reporters who
are willing to risk their lives to enter mostly lawless areas, but aren't
willing to sends their reports back to their publication headquarters.

There are a lot of ideas here to throw at characters in a Traveller
campaign!

Cheers,
Maksim-Smelchak.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Flykiller@aol.com
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 12:49 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Patton

 >The Germans, and
 >particularly the Japanese were horribly dehumanized.  We made our enemies
 >into monsters so then it was OK to exterminate them.

Seems to be part of the human condition.  Not only is the enemy an inhuman
monster and responsible for any and all evil, _we_ are pure as the
wind-driven snow in any and all circumstances. "It's Al Qaida's fault we
bombed a wedding party!"



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 08:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Fri Aug  2 07:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <20020802101235.98a3bb14da2249719a2c69a0b3078a17.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>> (1) - The Swordfishs' very obs0lescence may have actually helped it survive 
>> in battle.  A most likely apophrycal story from the Bismarck saga has the 
>> German AA fire missing the attacking Swordfish because the aircraft were 
>> moving too SLOW, the AA crews led their targets by too much.  Swordfish made 
>> their torpedo runs at ~90 mph and weather conditions could drop that speed 
>> even further.
>>      The Swordfish may been viwed as a joke by other navies, it still got 
>> the job done at Taranto and with the Bismarck however.
>
>I'm pretty sure that their slow speed wasn't a factor in the Bismark 
>action, but it was a factor in the 'Channel Dash' (as was piss poor 
>communications on the British side).

Were they?  I do not remember any FAA torpedo squadrons involved, and the
only torpedo squadron the RAF's Coastal Command had in England (The rest
were in the Med.) had Beauforts, if I remember correctly.

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

 My Sale List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
 My Want List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 09:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Aug  2 08:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Japan, Al Quaida et al
In-Reply-To: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPIEEGEDAA.max200@lanset.com>
References: <151.11ceca62.2a7b936d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B4813.21851.61BFC53@localhost>

Okay, may I please ask people to remember that the TML contains a wide 
variety of people with vastly differing views on a huge range of subjects and 
IMHO that this is not the place to rehash our world's nasty past (or 
present). I think discussing the Imperial Rules of War is great, I think 
discussing and laying blame for the tragedies of the real world is not. I 
believe we have a list (TML-chat) for that purpose.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 09:05:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Fri Aug  2 08:05:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <20020802102615.30aca70d97e74ef18326726c229541ca.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>On 1 Aug 2002 at 20:20, john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:
>
>> OTOH, the Stringbag was never sent into battle against carrier-based 
>> fighters.  The TBD pilots at Midway, meanwhile, had to try to survive 
>> without fighter cover against the A6M Zero.  Hardly a fair contest (of 
>> course, any military leader who tries to fight war _fairly_ isn't doing 
>> the job correctly).
>
>However Swordfish did go up against serious air-cover during the 
>'Channel Dash' by Scharnhost and Gneisenau and while their losses 
>weren't insignificant they weren't as high as they might have been, 
>largely because they were flying so slowly that the German fighters 
>couldn't line up and get decent firing positions on them. The Beauforts 
>which were somewhat faster and had a (slightly) better defensive 
>armament took quite a hammering, IIRC.

Well, it would have greatly improved the British chances of attacking the
German ships if it did not take until just before the Germans were passing
the Straits of Dover to even know they were at sea.  At least then, the
Brits could have had time to assemble an all-out attack instead of send the
aircrafts in dribbles and drabs which allowed the Luftwaffe to kill them.
One of Adolf Galland's finer moments, providing air cover for the cruisers.

There is also an interesting story of how one of the Britsh destroyers that
had sailed to engage the German ships had to turn back for port with engine
trouble.  While she was heading back, the RAF pulled a case of mistaken
identity and attacked her, only to be chased away by a flight of German
Bf-109s who then protected the destoyer and provided top cover until they
ran low on fuel...without ever realizing who they were defending...

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

 My Sale List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
 My Want List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 09:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Aug  2 08:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <20020802101235.98a3bb14da2249719a2c69a0b3078a17.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <3D4B49A4.30448.6221A7B@localhost>

On 2 Aug 2002, at 10:14, Cheng Tseng wrote:

> Were they?  I do not remember any FAA torpedo squadrons involved, and the only
> torpedo squadron the RAF's Coastal Command had in England (The rest were in
> the Med.) had Beauforts, if I remember correctly.

#825 Sqd, Lt Cmdr Esmonde led six Swordfish against the Scharnhorst, 
Gneisenau and Prinz Eugen with their escorts and heavy fighter cover. All 
six were shot down and only by a miracle did 5 of the 18 crew survive. Lt 
Cmdr Esmonde received the FAA's first VC for the attack.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 09:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 08:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <200208021543.g72Fhlw12656@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
...
>Raider-carriers are an excellent idea. I wonder if escort carriers could

  You can upgrade a target to carry a SOTA 50-Dt FH in a 100 ton
bay used for cargo in peacetime.

>counter them. Or if they could carry enough fighters to scrub a decent light
>cruiser before it closed and killed the carrier. Or....

  Sadly, HG2 doesn't allow those sorts of complications, but
any of the hex-based Trav games make riders/carriers _much_ 
less attractive for precisely that reason.

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 10:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 09:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <11ad10118abc.118abc11ad10@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Date: Thursday, August 1, 2002 10:45 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Patton

> on 8/1/02 12:31 PM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:
> 
> > and kill his wife and children.  Don't torture him if you capture
> > him.  In fact, if you capture him he's no longer a threat, so don't
> > kill him at all.
> 
> More than that, if you treat your prisoners well, and the enemy 
> knows it,
> they may be more inclined to surrender.  Would the Iraqis have 
> surrenderedin droves if we were shooting them out of hand and 
> putting their heads on
> poles?  I don't think so.

I forget which historian pointed out that the two pieces of information 
that travel most swiftly through an army in combat are the quality of 
care in one's own hospitals and the way in which the enemy treats 
captured personnel.  Poor prospects in the first case tends to reduce an 
army's effectiveness (who want to risk wounds if a trip to the hospital 
is nearly a guaranteed death sentence?), while poor prospects in the 
latter case tends to increase an army's willingness to fight ("if 
they're going to kill me anyway, I may as well take some of them with 
me!").

Besides, "dead men tell no tales."  In other words, if we kill prisoners 
of war (especially if we kill enemy soldiers trying to surrender), I 
can't interrogate them. ;-)




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 10:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 09:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <13b8e513938c.13938c13b8e5@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
Date: Friday, August 2, 2002 2:08 am
Subject: Re: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships

<<snip>>
> 
> If Side A wins the battle, does this mean they attempt to 
> salvage some Side B ships?  Is there a nuclear scuttle option 
> for capital ships to prevent enemy use?  Or would Side A 
> plant nuclear demolition charges on the wrecks of Side B to 
> ensure that damaged ships are not recovered?

This is from memory, so I may be off slightly....

Well, there is the case of _Bard Endeavour_, an AHL-class fleet 
intruder, during the Solomani Rim War.  The Solomani initiated a 
boarding action to capture the disabled vessel, which was in an unstable 
orbit with inoperable maneuver drives (but a working jump drive).  The 
few survivors of _Bar Endeavour's_ crew managed a textbook example of 
how to resist boarding; the Solomani boarding party was unable to take 
engineering or the auxiliary bridge and eventually evacuated.  47 (IIRC) 
crewbeings rode _Bard Endeavour_ in a catastrophic reentry.

No scuttling charges, but a documented attempt to seize a disabled enemy 
ship.

> ________________
> "I am Weasel!"

"Hear me roar! ;-)"



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 10:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 09:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <3D4B1E74.16706.D41575@localhost>
References: <a6.29f91dee.2a7a2a7a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020802094028.36370018@pop.mindspring.com>

At 12:06 AM 8/3/2002 +1200, you wrote:
>On 1 Aug 2002 at 2:08, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
>
>> This tactic is presented not as a desperation move, but an ordinary
>> one to be implemented if said navy can put up with it.  To which I
>> responded that no fighter pilot community would tolerate it.  Even
>> if the attacking squadron is originally 1000, after two capital
>> ships they'll be combat ineffective using this tactic, and there
>> will be NO volunteers to replace them until the tactic is discarded. 
>
>That's contrary to history - in WWII many units in all combatants 
>armies took those sorts of casualties, and New Zealand, the USA, 
>Britain and the USSR (and probably others) all continued to have people 
>volunteering throughout the war.

See the lines to volunteer for the British Army after Dunkirk or the US
Navy after Pearl Harbor.

People never believe it will happen to them.  It's the other guy that will
die.  Even after two years of trench warfare, troops were *still* going
over the top in futile charges.

The US Army did studies in which they discovered that the longest that a
solider can stay in a combat zone is about 100 days.  After that, he falls
apart.  So the Army began rotating units to rest areas so they could
recharge a little and get roaring drunk and contract VD before going back
into the line.  It will be harder for the Imperium to do this, but I think
it would be a priority to establish some sort of safe zone for the troops.
-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Animals who are not penguins can only wish they were.
-Chicago reader, 10/15/82

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 10:50:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 09:50:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <3D4B1F74.9458.D7FBED@localhost>
References: <8d.1bfa1383.2a7a4253@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020802094239.36dff48c@pop.mindspring.com>

At 12:10 AM 8/3/2002 +1200, you wrote:
>On 1 Aug 2002 at 3:50, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
>
>>  >> He will shuck and jive, pretend equipment failures, or run.  He most
>>  >> certainly won't volunteer for that sort of duty again.
>>  >
>>  >That's a pretty low opinion of a fellow officer
>> 
>> A fellow officer, he says!  They wouldn't be officers, they'd be cannon 
>> fodder.  And they'd know it.
>
>Interesting that you see figther pilots as having the state of non-
>cannon fodder as their natural state, and that they'd be scarce 
>resources. I can't see them as being any more or less expendable than 
>any other ship crew, as all crew positions that are combat relevant are 
>skilled. I also find your position interesting in that it assumes that 
>highly skilled people are 'more cautious' (to be polite) than those 
>that are supposedly less highly trained/skilled (like grunts).

Hell, as a sniper I was considered to be a highly-skilled soldier (not
cannon-fodder) and was expected to do insane things that were extremely
dangerous and most often fatal.  Snipers are rarely taken prisoner.  Enemy
troops tend to kill them when they are caught.  Doesn't stop the flow of
volunteers.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 10:51:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 09:51:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller HIDING
In-Reply-To: <124.1460d565.2a7b535d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020802094449.364f9a92@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:15 PM 8/1/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>Yes, basking in verbally-asserted superiority is indeed much more pleasant 
>than risking actual defeat.  But of course indulging in this makes you a 
>coward.

Uncalled for.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 10:52:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 09:52:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <140bd3139f9e.139f9e140bd3@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: James Ramsay <quakers_united@yahoo.com.au>
Date: Friday, August 2, 2002 2:23 am
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller

> QUOTE
> This tactic is presented not as a desperation move,
> but an ordinary one to be implemented if said navy can
> put up with it.  To which I responded that 
> no fighter pilot community would tolerate it.  Even if
> the attacking squadron is originally 1000, after two
> capital ships they'll be combat ineffective 
> using this tactic, and there will be NO volunteers to
> replace them until the tactic 
> is discarded.
> END QUOTE
> 
> But wouldn't more people die if it was cap ship vs.
> cap ship?

<tongue-in-cheek>

Yes, but (assuming that Imperial Navy practice is similar to US Navy 
practice since the end of WW II) the fighter pilots are all officers and 
gentlemen, while many of the capital ship crewbeings are mere ratings.

</tongue-in-cheek>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Meduim Navies
Message-ID: <3D4AB9A9.6B6DB02@mail.cswnet.com>

Three years ago Ian Ferguson posted a wonderful little thing called
"Small
Navies". I liked the idea very much, since I tried doing a straight TCS
and 
discovered that it created massive navies. However, Ian's "Small Navies"
was
just to small for my taste. I wanted something that would look like the
Fifth Frontier War Game, but not as big as a straight TCS Campaign. So,
after some thought, I've ginned this up. I call it "Meduim Navies".

Items used:
Ian Fergusons' "Small Navies" post (for budget modifiers)
Adventure 5 Trillion Credit Squadron
Striker (for apportionment).

Step one:
Generate peacetime naval budget

peacetime naval budget: Cr50 per person
	xTCS peacetime government type modifier (1.3 for type 7)
	x1.5 for Rich Worlds
	x.5 for Poor Worlds
	x2 for Independant Worlds

Step two:
Apportion Initial Naval Budget

70% goes to planetary and colonial navies
30% goes to Imperial forces

Step three:
Initial fleet budget

Per Adventure 5, ten times peacetime budget.
Apportioned 80% current tech, 20% lower tech.

For worlds TL6-, allow for mercenaries to be hired
at half the budget that would have gone to the navy.
Using meduim navies, this will allow for allot of 
mercenary ships, which ought to be more plentiful
than they seem to be. I would be interested in knowing
exactly how large a ship the Imperuim would permit Mercs
to use, and what armament the 3I would allow them to have.
Thoughts anyone?

Alternately, you could allow for the Imperial Scout Service
to recieve this money. Whatever floats your boat.

Initial Fleets, Lunion subsector

Imperial Navy MCr 2,835,544.748

Wardn. MCr 55
Smoug MCr 14700
Rabwhar MCr115,500 [divided by 2 and converted to Starport A TL12
Credits,
MCr 26497.0589. This would give Rabwhar something in the neighborhood of
57-58 Type C Merc Cruisers].
Adabicci MCr 322,000
Zaibon MCr 148.75
Ianic MCr 5433.75 [divided by 2 and converted to Starport A TL12
Credits,
MCr 894.9705. Gives Ianic a Type C Merc Cruiser and a couple of
escorts].
Spirelle MCr 312,375
Derchon MCr 36,225
Lunion MCr 3,080,000
Shirine MCr 252
Harvoset MCr 14175
Perisephone MCr 28350
Capon MCr 17,850
Strouden MCr 3,465,000

Note that I do not divide planetary and subsector navies. Basically,
my attitude is if it jumps its part of the subsector navy, if it 
doesn't jump its part of the planetary navy/coacc. Population is
from Spinward Marches campaign [eg Arba pop 2 multiplier 6, 600 people].
Pop differs from BTC but makes things easier/more uniform for the tax
preparer. I've also done this for the Lanth subsector. The Imperial
Navy gets MCr 68673.42 there for its initial fleet. Not having a High
Pop worlds makes a big difference.

This does take a little bit of work to do, but once you get the initial
fleet budgets up, you can get ahold of Andrew Moffat Vallences' High 
Guard Shipyard and Trillion Credit Squadron programs and build navies
to your hearts content.

I've already started on this for Adabicci. Its not complete yet, but
here is a partial list, using some ships built by AMV and some built 
by me.

TL11 Adabicci Squadron
1xArkansas [Washington Class] Battleship [!!!] 
Note: Thanks for building this Andrew, I've gotten a big kick out of
it.
5xCasiopia Destroyers
10xDaring Missile Boats
1xGriffon Missile  Boat Tender
5xT11  class Patrol Cruisers
10xType S class Scouts
5xBattle class Couriers
2xAmbush class Destroyers
5xFolgore class Assault Ships

TL10 Adabicci Squadron
10xDFC Frigates
30xAndrea Doria Auxilliary Transports

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Friends in High Places, Part Four.
In-Reply-To: <151.11ceca62.2a7b936d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020802120329.00793b30@minn.net>

                     Friends in High Places
                                
                           Part Four


     The walls of the Municipal Jail in Oshkosh on Regina were
painted in a standard institutional shade of light green. The
light reflected from the walls gave all persons and physical
objects in the jail a greenish tinge in appearance.
     "There is no spoon." Said Dana Wolfsburg. 
     Nothing happened.
     "There's no knives or forks either." Said the assistant
gunner, who very obviously failed to get the flat-film reference.
     The four members of the landing party were in the men's
holding tank at the Municipal Jail. Even though her gender on the
Imperial identification card was listed as female, Dana was stuck
in the men's tank because the local police gene-scanner persisted
in identifying her as a male human. This would merely be annoying
if the four crew members from the CHAUCHAT were alone in the
men's holding tank.
     Nursing a variety of non-lethal blunt-force injuries at the
other end of the holding tank were the surviving male members of
the local Orthodox Bargerite congregation. Three of them had been
dumb enough to actually shoot at the Imperial Marines who were
called in to deal with the armed altercation between the
Bargerites and the crew of the CHAUCHAT. The Marines promptly and
permanently removed the three trigger happy Bargerites from the
human gene pool.
     The door of the men's holding tank opened. Four Marines in
full battle dress and wielding stun-staffs walked in and formed a
line between the Bargerites and the landing party. Following the
Marines into the room was the Captain of the former Imperial Navy
Ship CHAUCHAT. 
     "Before you leave this joint," said Dennis Sterling to his
crew, "I want all of you to know that I, really and truly, DO NOT
enjoy asking for favors from Imperial officials."
     Dennis paused for dramatic effect.
     "Do all of you understand?"
     They did. The assistant gunner spoke up.
     "Are we taking your ex-wife with us?"
     Dennis glared at the subordinate, before he could give voice
to an answer to the damned question there came a noise from
across the cell. One of the Bargerites stood up and voiced with
obscene embellishment his claim to Helen, the former wife of the
Captain. With clenched fists the thug attempted to charge at the
Captain. Before the Marines could act, Dennis drew his pistol and
placed an 11.4 mm round through the thug's forehead.
     Captain Sterling glared at the remaining Bargerites.
     "Anyone else want to try me?"

     Doc continued to stare at the Tarot deck sitting on the
floor before her. 
     What was the point of having a Tarot deck if she wasn't
going to use it? The feeling of impending doom wasn't about to go
away by itself. At least do a three card spread.
     Doc picked up the deck and started to shuffle it.

     Ditzie was waiting at the front desk of the local jail, she
was sitting on a black ballistic cloth duffle bag. Standing next
to her was a Vargr in a black trench coat with black sunglasses.  
     Dennis introduced the Vargr to the rest of his crew.
     "This is Daevagh, he was a Lieutenant Commander in the
Imperial Navy, and he will be our navigator on the coming
voyage."
     The other crew members were worried, what voyage?
     Ditzie stood and spoke up.
     "We're going to the Vargr Extents!"
     
     Even though the Captain wasn't present, Doc decided to use
his as the Querent, the person for whom the divination was being
performed. A reasonable choice since the fate of all souls aboard
the CHAUCHAT was bound up to his.
     The first card Doc drew was the Page of Swords, not much of
a surprise there, the Captain was a former naval intelligence
officer.

     Dennis had other unfinished business to attend to, he
stepped into the women's holding cell. Loosely bunched at one end
of the cell were the female companions of the Orthodox
Bargerites, they were either unconscious or too badly injured to
move. Sitting on a bench at the other end of the cell was his
former wife, Helen. 
     Dennis raised an eyebrow in a Spock-like manner, there was
once a time when he would have wondered how Helen ended up with
the Angels of Hell. He spoke to her.
     "It appears Madame, that you were not subjected to a proper
strip search." 
     Helen stood up and slowly walked over to him.  In height she
only came up to his nose.
     "Do you want to do a proper strip search now?" She cooed.
     "Madame," he answered, "if it were entirely up to me I would
leave you here with your friends." He gestured to the pile of
beat-up Barger-babes on the other side of the cell.
     "But," he continued, "I've been directed by the Imperial
authorities to remove you from this planet." 
     Helen's facial expression changed from sweet and seductive
to a focused frown.
     "So," Dennis concluded, "let us not make this situation any
more unpleasant than it has to be."
 
     The second card that Doc drew from the deck was The Fool,
reversed. The card normally depicted a young man and his dog
embarking on a journey of discovery. Reversed, the card meant
that the journey would be fraught with hazards. 

     The police sergeant at the front desk was being difficult.
He was refusing to return the weapons seized from the landing
party. The pistols would have been easy enough to replace, but
replacing the customized Advanced Combat Rifles would have taken
time that Dennis and his crew could ill afford to waste. 
     "Sergeant," Dennis again pulled out and unfolded a sheet of
official Imperial Stationary from his pocket, "what part of this
warrant did you not understand?"
     The desk sergeant originally seemed happy to see Captain
Sterling walk in through the front door of the jail, until the
Captain pulled out a Ducal Warrant and a squad of Marines. 
     "Do I have to read it to you again?"

     Doc drew the third card from the deck.
     It was The Tower.
     "Oh, shit..."

     The Lone Sniper woke up with the taste of mud and plastic in
his mouth. He felt like he was immersed in warm water.
     The last thing that he remembered was his falling from a
radio and navigational light tower at a landing field on the
planet Regina. Fortunately, he fell flat forward into the pool of
muddy water adjacent to the concrete base of the tower.
Unfortunately, the water at the point of impact was only fifteen
centimeters deep.
     The Lone Sniper opened his eyes. He was secured by straps
and surgical tape in an Imperial standard regeneration tank in a
hospital somewhere on Regina.
     This wouldn't be so bad if he was unconscious. 
     Except of course for the fact that patients in the regen
tank aren't supposed to be wide awake.  
     The Lone Sniper couldn't even scream this time.

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:08:02 2002
Subject: JTAS Contest (was: Re: [TML] warship optimization in traveller)
Message-ID: <15003d14e409.14e40915003d@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: David Shayne <daveshayne@ameritech.net>
Date: Friday, August 2, 2002 4:24 am
Subject: Re: [TML] warship optimization in traveller

> > From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
> > Date: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 11:41 pm
> >
> 
> <snip>
> 
> > For JTAS subscribers, the recently-completed starship design 
> > contest (Contest #10) had some excellent hospital ships, albeit 
> > mostly using design sequences other than HG2.  Note, though, 
> that 
> > the winning design (not mine, sad to say) was built using HG2.
> 
> That design would have been mine. And IMHO it wasn't the best 
> design in
> that contest. I won, I believe, because of my shameless 
> misappropriationof 20th century american pop culture icons. (I 
> must have been channeling
> Dave Nilsen)

Just out of curiosity, which one did you vote for?  I was caught up in 
the actual deployment from Ft. Carson to Sinai, so I didn't submit a 
vote, but I probably would have voted for _Sanctuary_, the 300,000 dton 
converted Fleet Support Tanker [*].
> 
> All of which reminds me that I have to firm up the details for the 
> nextdesign contest.

Now that I have relatively reliable Internet access again, I eagerly 
await the next JTAS contest [**].

[*] Actually, I liked my own design best, but I've always viewed voting 
for your own ship in such a contest as gauche.

[**] For those who would like to participate, just go to the 
Starship/Vehicle Design discussion board on JTAS.  Not a subscriber?  
Why not?  It's only $15 US per two years for biweekly issues and access 
to archives, discussion boards and Brubek's chat room.  [And if you 
mention that aurictech referred you, I get a free month added to _my_ 
subscription! ;-)]

http://jtas.sjgames.com/subscribe/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:08:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:08:43 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <11c.14c7f23e.2a7b7e6b@aol.com>
References: <11c.14c7f23e.2a7b7e6b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3it2tkx3r.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
> 
> In reference to the original post that started all this, I don't
> know what else to say, 'cept I'm glad all these true warriors aren't
> in charge of making making major procurement and force deployment
> decisions.

I think a point which many have been trying to make is that those
decisions are made exactly according to such criteria.  Hence the
references to real-life battles and situations.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
If you're a politician, bureaucrat, or cop whose livelihood depends on
the drug war, you're fully as contemptible as any pusher, smuggler, or
cocaine baron--more so, because, unlike them, you profit directly by
destroying what was once the greatest freedom ever known to mankind.
                              --Mirelle Stein, The Productive Class

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] AC-130 losses [was something?]
Message-ID: <3D4ABE97.F32CD2F5@mail.cswnet.com>

I can't remember who wanted this or why, but here goes:

AC-130 losses, Vietnam
3 Aircraft, 52 aircrew
*also, IIRC from dad, 1 aircraft made it back to base but never
flew again.
Most losses from Triple A or SA-7.

AC-130 losses, Gulf War
1 Aircraft, 14 aircrew
Believed to be lost from a SA-16.

AC-130 Somalia operations [Kenya accident]
1 Aircraft, 8 aircrew
Accident; crashed off of Kenya coast.

For further details:
http://www.Spectre-association.org/

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <76.201d4ff6.2a7b1285@aol.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMENMIJAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>


 >>  >They might want more choices besides Dreadnaughts.
 >>
 >> Show me your choices.  I'd love to see 'em.
 >
 >Low-end ships so you can do all your jobs within your budget maybe?

I understand that, but there's the question of what your enemy is doing.
Consider the extreams -- if your goal is to win engagements then you'll want
a few expensive capital ships, but if you want to "do all the jobs" then
you'll want a herd of warm bodies (as it were).  Between the extreams is the
balance -- but where is it?  I think it's way over in the "win engagements"
side.  If you "cover all the bases" with warm bodies but have to flee every
time the heavyweight enemy shows up then what good is that?  There is no
substitute for victory, and to get that victory you need the heavyweights
and
you need more of them than your enemy.

 >Patrol ships and tankers and whatever you plan to escort the talkers with.

If by patrol you mean scouts, then yes.  But if you mean general policing
then I'd think that would be a local police matter and not a fleet matter.
If I'm an admiral at Jewell looking at 1000 Zhodie capital ship in Cronor,
and I hear about some pirates at Enope, I'd have to set priorities and ask
Wochiers to deal with it.  Since imminent war is not a constant threat, if
some patrols were desperately needed by local governments then I'd send some
screening vessels to deal with the problem and then return.

As for tankers (?), if I had any I'd just keep them with the fleet.

>The USN,
>for example, has other ships than carriers or attack subs (whichever you
>consider to be the capital ship). Most navies have some high-end combat
>ships and low-end workhorses.

That's because of real-world issues regarding weapon load capacities, size
vs
speed, air / surface / sub environment requirements, hull-shape
requirements,
and dozens of other factors, make such specialization necessary and
effective.  These issues don't transfer well to a Traveller universe.  In
Traveller everyone can go just as fast as the next guy, they all can carry
the same weapons, there's no limitation on size or hull configuration, and
so
on.  Would you put an Ageis system on a cargo ship?  You can do it in
Traveller, and it works.  Would you put ten inch armor on a destroyer?  You
can do it in Traveller, and it works.  Effective combat ships will all tend
towards the same hull/weapons/defenses configuration, and specialization
will
become mere limitation.

My Spinward Marches Colonial Fleet has supply vessels, hospital ships,
minesweepers, and other stuff in addition to its capital vessels.  But they
are all sideshows, and minor elements of the fleet -- maybe 5% of the total
tonnage.  I intend to win the major engagements first -- I'll clean up any
leftover messes after I win.

Mr. Flykiller

I've been following this debate over ships.

A config 7, dispersed structure, ship has the
highest to hit target of any configuration.
A high agility, high computer size A or less
meson escort is the hardest to hit of any ship.
Other weapons find it hard to hit with as well.
Additionally, is features the lowest hull cost.

A Wombat swarmers is an anti capital ship weapon.
They are realitively inexpensive, has low crew
sizes, and back up computers, bridges and low berths to
increase their staying power.

In game terms a Wombat has a size mod of -1, and agility
of 6 and a computer 9 giving it a to hit mod of
-14 + computer attacking ship (renderinging it unhittable
by anything other then a Meson M meson spinal mountor
better which a T hits on an  10, 11 or 12 , Q-s hit on
11 or 12 and the others only hit on a 12 assuming
a type 9 computer with an allotment of two extra PP levels
to soak up PP hits.  they have a back up level 9 computer
and 30 low berths -- allowing for 3 levels of crew hits.
In Trilion Credit Squadron senerios, they only soak
up one pilot and work on the factor 9 meson gun column.

1	10
2	9
3	7
4	4
5	3
6	6
7	12
8	2
9	11

before any modifactions. Most Capital ships are at least size B
so it is at worst a +1 in any exchange of fire

Interesingly, with the backups and lack of Armour, she has
weapon hits to fear the most -- she has no screens and jump
drives, so spinal weapons are at a disadvantage against it --
only 10 and 12 on pentrating hits are  mission kills on the
radiation table while 8 and 11 are MKs on the Surface explosion
table.  the +6 DM that sub 9 bay/batteries have acually hurt
her more.  PA that can hurt it, at best -- assuming a 9 computer --
need a 10 or better to hit while missiles need a seven
at best

The Wombat is a specialists and can be hurt, but the things that
can hurt it are at a disavantage trying to hit it and things
that can hit it do find it hard to Mission kill it.  Costing
DD price range, they threaten any capital ship scoring weapon
and computer hits through radiation hits and all but Critical and
shattered fuel hits on hits and penetrate and score interior hits.

Ship: Fred
Class: Wombat
Type: Meson Swarmer
Architect: jml
Tech Level: 15

USP
         Es-A706Z92-000000-00090-0 MCr 1,405.500 1 KTons
Bat Bear                      1    Crew: 19
Bat                           1    TL: 15

Cargo: 9.000 Fuel: 300.000 EP: 300.000 Agility: 6
Backups: 1 x Model/9 Computer 1 x Bridge
Substitutions: Z = 30

Architects Fee: MCr 14.055   Cost in Quantity: MCr 1,124.400


Detailed Description

HULL
1,000.000 tons standard, 14,000.000 cubic meters, Dispersed Structure
Configuration

CREW
Pilot, Navigator, 14 Engineers, Medic, 2 Gunners

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 6G Manuever, Power plant-30, 300.000 EP, Agility 6

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/9 Computer
1 Backup Bridge, 1 Model/9 Backup Computer

HARDPOINTS
1 100-ton bay

ARMAMENT
1 100-ton Meson Bay (Factor-9)

DEFENCES
None

CRAFT
None

FUEL
300.000 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
No Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
10.0 Staterooms, 30 Low Berths, 9.000 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 1,419.555 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 14.055), MCr 1,124.400 in
Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
120 Weeks Singly, 96 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <1666ad163c67.163c671666ad@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Date: Friday, August 2, 2002 3:51 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] warship optimization in traveller

> On 1 Aug 2002 at 16:42, Hurrel, Brian wrote:
> 
> > "No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy."
> > 
> > I'm paraphrasing, and can't remember who said this. Maybe 
> Clausewitz(SP?).
> Moltke, IIRC, but it's probably about as old as warfare itself.

FWIW, I recall reading a corollary to this quote:

"No unit ever survived contact with the enemy _without_ a battle plan."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:44:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:44:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CF7@USCHM203>

>The Germans, and
 >particularly the Japanese were horribly dehumanized.  We made our enemies
 >into monsters so then it was OK to exterminate them.

If there was any dehumanizing of the Germans and Japanese, they did it
themselves through their own brutality. 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith Mormon minion of Arioch)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CF7@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <007f01c23a4c$9e46f0d0$6f7ba8c0@kenneith93j41k>

Well actually we did it with our propaganda before we even found out they
were basterds, don't; get me wrong what they did was wrong, but at the time
we chose a path also to get our war machine in motion.
Ken

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comics
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you
http://www.geocities.com/J_Elric_Smith/Index.html
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 1:43 PM
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization


> >The Germans, and
>  >particularly the Japanese were horribly dehumanized.  We made our
enemies
>  >into monsters so then it was OK to exterminate them.
>
> If there was any dehumanizing of the Germans and Japanese, they did it
> themselves through their own brutality.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <004301c23a04$8cdeff60$0112bd50@martinjd>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
 <m3ofclg93m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
 <004301c23a04$8cdeff60$0112bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <m3eldhkv8o.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> writes:
> 
> There are simulator drawbacks--`simulator sickness--which is kind of
> psychosomatic motion sickness, can begin to manifest itself on real
> missions (or cause them to not do certain things because they expect
> sim sickness).

Again, a sufficiently advanced computer (I'm talking about Moore's law
for 2,000 years: capacity increasing by 1.5 every 1.5 years for 2,000
years is a 6.1425e234 increase; by 2 every 2 years is a 1.0715e301
increase) can model sufficiently well that one will experience bad
effects exactly as in real life...

> And they can develop a habit of recklessness since they can't die,
> which is bad if carried over, or sometimes evaporates in a mist of
> nerves because suddenly they CAN.

Granted--I'm not arguing that sims would replace training, but that
basic piloting skills might very well be widespread in the population
due to the prevalence of sims.  That is, much as manipulating a
first-person shooter is pretty much common to 95% of teenage males
today, the basics of piloting a fighter craft might be common to 95%
of teenage males in thefar future.  Thus fighter training might be
much quicker and risk-free than currently, and consequently fighter
pilots might be significantly cheaper.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
What did you do to the cat? It looks half-dead.
                         --Schroedinger's wife

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CF7@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208021045440.12501-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 2 Aug 2002, Hurrel, Brian wrote:

>  >The Germans, and
>  >particularly the Japanese were horribly dehumanized.  We made our enemies
>  >into monsters so then it was OK to exterminate them.
> 
> If there was any dehumanizing of the Germans and Japanese, they did it
> themselves through their own brutality. 

Um, all of them, even the children?

The problem with dehumanization is that it invites things like rape and
torture of noncombatants, and just because one side is doing that does not
mean it's a good idea, or OK, for the other side to do it.

Kiri

**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:53:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:53:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in traveller)
Message-ID: <F244ozCsVINDnKgXhLy00004901@hotmail.com>

Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:
>The US Army did studies in which they discovered that the
>longest that a solider can stay in a combat zone is about
>100 days.  After that, he falls apart.  So the Army began
>rotating units to rest areas so they could recharge a little
>and get roaring drunk and contract VD before going back
>into the line.  It will be harder for the Imperium to do this,
>but I think it would be a priority to establish some sort of
>safe zone for the troops.

It's an old saw that military service is extended periods of
boredom punctuated by short periods of stark terror.  Imagine
if an army used sleeper ships to move their troops around...
soldiers whose military service consisted of sleeping through
the extended periods of boredom, and only being awake for the
periods of stark terror.

That kind of setup might be cheap when it came to starship
life support costs, but I imagine the impact on the soldiers'
psyches would be extreme.

I remember a sci-fi tale of soldiers such as this, warriors
who would sleep for ages and only wake for war, while society
changed around them into unrecognizability...it wasn't
Gordon R. Dickson's _Soldier, Ask Not_, was it?

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 11:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (R. Michael Stephens)
Date: Fri Aug  2 10:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in traveller)
References: <F244ozCsVINDnKgXhLy00004901@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D4AC860.5000504@vanderbilt.edu>

Similar effects in Jack Chalker's "Forever War", very fast STL, large 
time dialation effects, and IIRC hibernation.

Walt Smith wrote:
> Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:
> 
>> The US Army did studies in which they discovered that the
>> longest that a solider can stay in a combat zone is about
>> 100 days.  After that, he falls apart.  So the Army began
>> rotating units to rest areas so they could recharge a little
>> and get roaring drunk and contract VD before going back
>> into the line.  It will be harder for the Imperium to do this,
>> but I think it would be a priority to establish some sort of
>> safe zone for the troops.
> 
> 
> It's an old saw that military service is extended periods of
> boredom punctuated by short periods of stark terror.  Imagine
> if an army used sleeper ships to move their troops around...
> soldiers whose military service consisted of sleeping through
> the extended periods of boredom, and only being awake for the
> periods of stark terror.
> 
> That kind of setup might be cheap when it came to starship
> life support costs, but I imagine the impact on the soldiers'
> psyches would be extreme.
> 
> I remember a sci-fi tale of soldiers such as this, warriors
> who would sleep for ages and only wake for war, while society
> changed around them into unrecognizability...it wasn't
> Gordon R. Dickson's _Soldier, Ask Not_, was it?
> 
> Walt Smith
> Firelock on DALNet
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


-- 
--
R. Michael Stephens               Systems Software Specialist
Vanderbilt University         Information Technology Services
Systems Development & Implementation      VUwebmail Developer
Nashville TN.  USA  R.M.Stephens@Vanderbilt.Edu  615.343.8780


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 12:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 11:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208021045440.12501-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <B9701696.6773B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/2/02 10:49 AM, Azalais Malfoy at tiamat@tsoft.com wrote:

>> If there was any dehumanizing of the Germans and Japanese, they did it
>> themselves through their own brutality.
> 
> Um, all of them, even the children?
> 
> The problem with dehumanization is that it invites things like rape and
> torture of noncombatants, and just because one side is doing that does not
> mean it's a good idea, or OK, for the other side to do it.
> 

Just to bring this back to Traveller,  how do the Imperium portray it's
adversaries?  We can probably guess that the Solomani do a bit of
dehumanizing propaganda against their Imperial foe.  How does the Imperium
portray the Zhodani and Solomani to it's citizenry.  And is there an
Imperial Ministry for Propaganda?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 12:11:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fred Ramen)
Date: Fri Aug  2 11:11:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Blowing holes in Japan (was " Re Patton")
Message-ID: <009d01c23a4f$d11f1de0$f42bf7a5@pctframen>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> writes:

"An Allied invasion would have also included the USSR.  There could have
been a Tokyo wall to match the one in Berlin.  Today, Japan could be
struggling to assimilate and rebuild Hokkaido and the northern half of
Honshu, just as the Germans are still trying to deal with the eastern
portions of their recently reunited nation."

My dear Mr. Whipsnade,

Given that without a unified Japan many of the U.S.'s conflicts in Asia
(Korea, Vietnam, guaranteeing the independence of Taiwan) would likely have
been fantastically difficult or impossible, in your alternate scenario the
Tokyo (and perhaps Berlin!) walls might likely still be up! A divided Japan
would have made it almost impossible for the US to prosecute the war in
Korea without the conflict spreading into a general US/Soviet war, for
example.

Fred "Paging Dr. Turtledove" Ramen


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 12:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 11:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
 traveller)
In-Reply-To: <3D4AC860.5000504@vanderbilt.edu>
Message-ID: <B9701A4C.6777A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/2/02 10:58 AM, R. Michael Stephens at Robert.M.Stephens@vanderbilt.edu
wrote:

> Similar effects in Jack Chalker's "Forever War", very fast STL, large
> time dialation effects, and IIRC hibernation.

That's Joe Haldeman's "Forever War"

[snip]
>> 
>> I remember a sci-fi tale of soldiers such as this, warriors
>> who would sleep for ages and only wake for war, while society
>> changed around them into unrecognizability...it wasn't
>> Gordon R. Dickson's _Soldier, Ask Not_, was it?
>> 


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 12:25:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (R. Michael Stephens)
Date: Fri Aug  2 11:25:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in	traveller)
References: <B9701A4C.6777A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D4ACED6.3070507@vanderbilt.edu>

Right.  Thanks.  Aging memory is not a fun thing.

Mike

Tod Glenn wrote:
> on 8/2/02 10:58 AM, R. Michael Stephens at Robert.M.Stephens@vanderbilt.edu
> wrote:
> 
> 
>>Similar effects in Jack Chalker's "Forever War", very fast STL, large
>>time dialation effects, and IIRC hibernation.
> 
> 
> That's Joe Haldeman's "Forever War"
> 
> [snip]
> 
>>>I remember a sci-fi tale of soldiers such as this, warriors
>>>who would sleep for ages and only wake for war, while society
>>>changed around them into unrecognizability...it wasn't
>>>Gordon R. Dickson's _Soldier, Ask Not_, was it?
>>>
>>
> 
> 
> --
> When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.


-- 
--
R. Michael Stephens               Systems Software Specialist
Vanderbilt University         Information Technology Services
Systems Development & Implementation      VUwebmail Developer
Nashville TN.  USA  R.M.Stephens@Vanderbilt.Edu  615.343.8780


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 12:52:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 11:52:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Rowan's Beasts
Message-ID: <3D4AD3D0.CD2C003@mail.cswnet.com>

I've decided to play in the bestiary for a little bit, in part to work
on some pc stuff and to take a break from starships.

Rowan's Beasts, from Supplement 6, Page 13.

I've decided to model these after the Roan Antelope, especially since I
have absolutely no biological/zooalogical experience/training to help
me with a discriptive commentary.

Herbivore/Grazer (4d)
weight: 400kg
hits: 16/9
armor: none
weapons: hooves and horns
wounds: 12
A:4 F:1 S:3

Believed to originate from Terra, Rowans have been transported to a
number of other systems. Its horns are a highly prized hunting trophey,
and it is also used by a number of religous cults as a symbolic figure.
They usually have a brown-grey coat, with black and white head markings
and a black tail. The male horns typically are 40-50cm in length, and
are curved backwards. Females also sport horns, but these are not as
long. Rowan are typically encountered in clear grass land, prairie, and 
savanah type environments. Usually found in herds of 20 and 100
animals, with between 1 to 5 males per group. Typical gestation period
runs between 270-300 days, with one offspring usually resulting. They 
typically have a lifespan of 18 years.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CF9@USCHM203>

> Ken wrote:
[re Germans and Japanese]

>Well actually we did it with our propaganda before we even found out they
>were basterds, don't; get me wrong what they did was wrong, but at the time
>we chose a path also to get our war machine in motion.

You have a point. One of the reasons people were very slow to believe
reports of German atrocities during WWII was because they remembered all the
false propaganda reports of German atrocities during WWI.

Personally, I find it hard to shed many tears for Hiroshima, Nagasaki, or
Dresden. Cold? Maybe. Avoidable or unneccessary? Perhaps in hindsight, but
that's a luxury no one had at the time. 
Do I condone the mass bombing of civilians or celebrate the deaths of
children? No. But as far as I'm concerned the Germans and Japanese were
ultimately responsible for their own destruction.
The Allies also showed much greater restraint than would have been shown us
if the tables were turned. I have no doubt the Axis powers, had they won,
would have gone on a rampage of looting, rape, genocide, and destruction
that would boggle the mind, and luckily remains in the realm of
science-fiction.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CFA@USCHM203>

Kiri wrote:

>Um, all of them, even the children?

No. But children often cannot keep their parents from acting foolishly and
putting them in danger.

Anyway, for the most part, it was not an Allied policy to target
non-combatants. Civilians live near factories, and factories are going to be
bombed. Also, bombers had nowhere near the precision of today's smart
weapons. What took one cruise missile during the gulf war would have taken a
flight of B17s 45 years earlier.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:18:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:18:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller HIDING
Message-ID: <F96dOgl4rhYQYx3G5aY00000042@hotmail.com>

Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:
<snip Flykiller's comments>
>
>Uncalled for.

To be fair, I was in the process of descending down to his
level, and I had a few uncalled for comments myself.

I am *not* interested in undertaking a contest with Flykiller,
and he is welcome to think of it what he will.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Carolyn & Royce)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <3D4B28F8.948.FD2916@localhost>
Message-ID: <007101c23a5b$5a5d63e0$6f142c42@roycereiss>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 8:51 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] warship optimization in traveller


On 1 Aug 2002 at 16:42, Hurrel, Brian wrote:

> "No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy."
>
> I'm paraphrasing, and can't remember who said this. Maybe Clausewitz(SP?).

Moltke, IIRC, but it's probably about as old as warfare itself.

--
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

I prefer the follow from Moltke the Elder
"Plans are nothing,  planning is everything"

Roy


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net><m3ofclg93m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org><004301c23a04$8cdeff60$0112bd50@martinjd> <m3eldhkv8o.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <00aa01c23a5c$4f293ca0$5d0bbd50@martinjd>

> "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> writes:
> >
> > There are simulator drawbacks--`simulator sickness--which is kind of
> > psychosomatic motion sickness, can begin to manifest itself on real
> > missions (or cause them to not do certain things because they expect
> > sim sickness).
>
> Again, a sufficiently advanced computer (I'm talking about Moore's law
> for 2,000 years: capacity increasing by 1.5 every 1.5 years for 2,000
> years is a 6.1425e234 increase; by 2 every 2 years is a 1.0715e301
> increase) can model sufficiently well that one will experience bad
> effects exactly as in real life...

Okay, if you can manage to simulate g stress and all the other stuff too,
then my comment above doesn't apply. If not, it does. You need more than an
amazing computer for this. Which translates to "again, I don't believe in
perfect simulators".

>
> > And they can develop a habit of recklessness since they can't die,
> > which is bad if carried over, or sometimes evaporates in a mist of
> > nerves because suddenly they CAN.
>
> Granted--I'm not arguing that sims would replace training, but that
> basic piloting skills might very well be widespread in the population
> due to the prevalence of sims.  That is, much as manipulating a
> first-person shooter is pretty much common to 95% of teenage males
> today, the basics of piloting a fighter craft might be common to 95%
> of teenage males in thefar future.  Thus fighter training might be
> much quicker and risk-free than currently, and consequently fighter
> pilots might be significantly cheaper.

Or society will be full of people who think they can flyb fighters, who
think they understand fuighter tactics, and who think they don't have to
listen to the instructors. I get this all the time teaching self-defense to
young men who think they know how to punch. They don't listen and don't get
any better. This actually means that the "human wave" attack might be
plausible. It'sd all you can do with these people. The French Revolutionary
army had a similar problem when it tries to turn the victorious volunteers
into a real army with discipline and manuever capability.





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:29:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:29:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMENMIJAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <00ab01c23a5c$506fc660$5d0bbd50@martinjd>

> Ship: Fred
> Class: Wombat
> Type: Meson Swarmer
> Architect: jml
> Tech Level: 15

These are nice. I notice that they're not fighters.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:30:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:30:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <200208021543.g72Fhlw12656@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <00af01c23a5c$51d040c0$5d0bbd50@martinjd>

> >counter them. Or if they could carry enough fighters to scrub a decent
light
> >cruiser before it closed and killed the carrier. Or....
>
>   Sadly, HG2 doesn't allow those sorts of complications, but
> any of the hex-based Trav games make riders/carriers _much_
> less attractive for precisely that reason.
>

Agreed. This is why I believe that HG/TCS alone do not present a framework
for creating a believable starfaring navy.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:31:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:31:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
References: <3D4B49A4.30448.6221A7B@localhost>
Message-ID: <00b101c23a5c$5444ea40$5d0bbd50@martinjd>

> On 2 Aug 2002, at 10:14, Cheng Tseng wrote:
>
> > Were they?  I do not remember any FAA torpedo squadrons involved, and
the only
> > torpedo squadron the RAF's Coastal Command had in England (The rest were
in
> > the Med.) had Beauforts, if I remember correctly.
>
> #825 Sqd, Lt Cmdr Esmonde led six Swordfish against the Scharnhorst,
> Gneisenau and Prinz Eugen with their escorts and heavy fighter cover. All
> six were shot down and only by a miracle did 5 of the 18 crew survive. Lt
> Cmdr Esmonde received the FAA's first VC for the attack.

One of my obscurely related uncles was killed in the Channel Dash, attacking
the Scharnhorst in a torpedo boat. Never got anywhere near, but his widow
went to Buckingham Palace to collect the medal they awarded for making the
attempt.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:31:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:31:44 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
References: <3D4B24F2.20758.ED70D3@localhost>
Message-ID: <00b201c23a5c$554ff1a0$5d0bbd50@martinjd>

>
> > IE Units will NOT enter routine combat situations where they know
> > they will be massacred.
>
> I think it depends a lot on the chances of success and the value the
> soldier (or pilots, or whatevers) place on that success.

Yes, hence my use of the word "routine". Critical situations (or good
manipulation by morale experts) will be different.

>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <200208021928.LXQ00226@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Douglas E. Berry" says
>Doesn't stop the flow of volunteers.

Me! Me! Pick me!
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:33:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:33:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Meduim Navies
Message-ID: <200208021932.LXR00217@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Roseberry says
<snip cool stuff on small navies>
I've wanted to do something on that scale for a PBEM, with 
the players doing their TCS thing with some politics and with 
the GM resolving battles and doing a CNN-like news.

________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in traveller)
Message-ID: <200208021936.LXR00684@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"R. Michael Stephens" says
>Similar effects in Jack Chalker's "Forever War", very fast 
>STL, large time dialation effects, and IIRC hibernation.

Ahem.. Joe Haldeman...
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <200208021939.LXR00993@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"MJ Dougherty" says
>These are nice. I notice that they're not fighters.
>

I'll repeat myself.  Using the small fleet concept that 
Roseberry posted earlier, I would be interested in running a 
TL 12 PBEM.

Then we could find out through politics what other players 
(representing their governments) think of things like 
planetary bombardment, prisoner exchange, trade embargos, 
blockades, etc.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
References: <20020802062003.11635.24330.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <eimkkukp9lm8iv0tjm0iu5gvjaoi5j6oov@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <3D4ADFBF.8030303@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Jeff Zeitlin wrote:

> 
> I refuse to believe that they _want_ a city that is so badly mismanaged
> that Congress was ready to take away what autonomy they had.

Well, a large part of the problems in DC has been the fact that they 
have generally had 565 masters to please...

565 rather stingy masters, at that, who didn't live or work in the city 
that the DC authorites had to police...only their nannies, garbage men 
and maids lived *there*.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:52:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:52:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <8d.1bfa1383.2a7a4253@aol.com> <3.0.5.16.20020802094239.36dff48c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3D4AE2D3.9080101@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> Hell, as a sniper I was considered to be a highly-skilled soldier (not
> cannon-fodder) and was expected to do insane things that were extremely
> dangerous and most often fatal.  Snipers are rarely taken prisoner.  Enemy
> troops tend to kill them when they are caught.  Doesn't stop the flow of
> volunteers.

Except, of course, you knew, deep down, *you* were good enough to 
survive, and get away without being caught. It was the other guy, the 
one who made mistakes, and had bad luck, who got captured and killed, 
not you. You were *good* dammit, you were a Ranger! Hooah!

I think this is the crucial element we're overlooking in this debate.

At one point during WWII the survival rates of US aviator pilits was not 
*much* better than kamakazi's. The crucial element is that they believed 
that their survival was ultimately influenced by their actions and 
abilities and their omnipresent good luck.

This goes for all of the 'suicide' missions like U-boat crews, our own 
submarine crews, and aviators. It's not a coincidence that submariners 
are usually considered the most fanatically superstious of all armed 
forces personnel.

When it becomes clear that no matter *what* you do, you're going to die, 
attitudes change.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in traveller)
References: <200208021936.LXR00684@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D4AE3B5.9050704@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

The original story about the soldiers being woken up for combat sounds 
quite a bit like the movie 'Universal Soldier', which, iirc, was based 
on a P.K. Dick short story or novella.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 13:57:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 12:57:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <00ab01c23a5c$506fc660$5d0bbd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHKEOJIJAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

> Ship: Fred
> Class: Wombat
> Type: Meson Swarmer
> Architect: jml
> Tech Level: 15

These are nice. I notice that they're not fighters.

_______________________________________________

Nope, High end SDB's or low end monitors IMO
They were a possible take on that survival thingy.

jml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in traveller)
Message-ID: <F91b7ENl92BgHK61Aca000250e0@hotmail.com>

R. Michael Stephens <Robert.M.Stephens@vanderbilt.edu> wrote:
>Similar effects in Jack Chalker's "Forever War", very fast STL, large
>time dialation effects, and IIRC hibernation.

Similar, but I think Haldeman's _Forever War_ was more about
isolation from society than concentrated warfare experience.
A soldier in Haldeman's book might spend a year (subjective)
sitting in boredom, then a week fighting for his or her life.
The society he or she is fighting for might have had two hundred
years pass while the troopship was flying for a subjective year,
but at least the soldier had some down time.

With "freezer pop" soldiers, you might have people who wake
up, fight to the death for a week, then go back to sleep
until the next fight to the death crops up. No down time,
no ability to process what happened before it all starts
again.  Imagine the post-war condition of the average US
WW2 soldier if his entire tour of duty had lasted only
(a subjective) three months, but each and every (subjective)
day had as much violence as the Normandy landings?

The extreme version (from the sf story that might be _Soldier,
Ask Not_) would give these troopers social isolation problems
as well (they get woken up for a week or so every couple of
centuries), but even the lesser version you'd see in a Traveller
setting could be hard on human minds.

Forever War was a helluva book, btw.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Blowing holes in Japan (was " Re Patton")
References: <009d01c23a4f$d11f1de0$f42bf7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <3D4AE539.2070603@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Fred Ramen wrote:

 > A divided Japan
> would have made it almost impossible for the US to prosecute the war in
> Korea without the conflict spreading into a general US/Soviet war, for
> example.

Well, I don't think this is all that likely. Uncle Joe did NOT want a 
generalized US/Soviet war at the time of the Korean conflict, whetehr or 
not they held part of Japan, or else it would have happened.

As it was, Stalin refused Mao's and Jong's requests for materiel and 
men, including nuclear weapons, and the few Russians involved in the 
conflict were extremely circumspect, and confined mainly to some higher 
level advisers to the Chinese advisers and command, and as pilots, 
initially for the Mig-15 and Yak-17 (iirc) jet fighters, and then only 
until China had sufficient trained personell to fly 'em.

(and, not coincidentally, the Russians had a good understanding of their 
performance against American jet aircraft, as well...)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:05:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:05:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonabo Class Missile Frigate
Message-ID: <19e.64fcc68.2a7c3fb5@aol.com>

 >Ship: Bonabo
 >Class: Bonabo
 >Type: Missile Frigate
 >Architect: Alan Bradley
 >Tech Level: 15
 >
 >USP
 >         FM-A156892-000000-00009-0 MCr 1,196.140 1.5 KTons
 >Bat Bear                       1   Crew: 24
 >Bat                            1   TL: 15
 >
 >Cargo: 2.000 Fuel: 870.000 EP: 120.000 Agility: 6 Shipboard Security Detail:
 >2
 >Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

No armor?  No low berths?  No medical facilities?  No lifeboat?  No cargo 
supplies?  Well, at least it seems to have extra crewmen -- if you can get 
anyone to sign up.  If I were the referee I'd give this boat an endurance of 
1 - 2 months max.

 >In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships.

Yes, in sufficient numbers, and if the capital ships are poorly designed and 
employed.  But credit for credit you'll never get the numbers sufficient to 
do so.  Meanwhile with no armor these ships will be dropping like flies.  I 
think what you have here is not a line-of-battle ship, but a raider that 
needs work.  Give it some more endurance and it would do fine in that roll.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:14:02 2002
Subject: JTAS Contest (was: Re: [TML] warship optimization in traveller)
References: <20020802182504.13132.61928.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D4AE7C4.85DCBD6E@ameritech.net>

> Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 20:07:38 +0300
> From: john.groth@us.army.mil

<snip>

> Just out of curiosity, which one did you vote for? 

The 300-ton Maraaki-class Medical Ship. I liked the mission description
for this ship. Plus it's a nice PC sized ship.

> I was caught up in
> the actual deployment from Ft. Carson to Sinai, so I didn't submit a
> vote, but I probably would have voted for _Sanctuary_, the 300,000 
> dton converted Fleet Support Tanker [*].

I considered this but decided it was too big a ship for most situations. 

<snip>

> [*] Actually, I liked my own design best, but I've always viewed 
> voting for your own ship in such a contest as gauche.

Well same here. Though in this instatnce I really didn't think my ship
was the best in the running. Maybe I need to send my ego in for
refurbishing. :)

> 
> [**] For those who would like to participate, just go to the
> Starship/Vehicle Design discussion board on JTAS.  Not a subscriber?
> Why not?  It's only $15 US per two years for biweekly issues and access
> to archives, discussion boards and Brubek's chat room.  [And if you
> mention that aurictech referred you, I get a free month added to _my_
> subscription! ;-)]

Ignore this blatant self promotion and tell them davidshayne sent you.

:)
 
> http://jtas.sjgames.com/subscribe/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
 traveller)
In-Reply-To: <3D4AC860.5000504@vanderbilt.edu>
References: <F244ozCsVINDnKgXhLy00004901@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020802151624.00a90e00@minn.net>

"R. Michael Stephens" <Robert.M.Stephens@vanderbilt.edu> wrote:
>Similar effects in Jack Chalker's "Forever War", very fast STL, large 
>time dialation effects, and IIRC hibernation.

>> I remember a sci-fi tale of soldiers such as this, warriors
>> who would sleep for ages and only wake for war, while society
>> changed around them into unrecognizability...it wasn't
>> Gordon R. Dickson's _Soldier, Ask Not_, was it?
>> 
>> Walt Smith
>> Firelock on DALNet

The Forever War by Joe Haldeman. He was a grunt in Vietnam.

Read it in high school.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <20020802101235.98a3bb14da2249719a2c69a0b3078a17.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <3D4B91FA.12531.2C8155@localhost>

On 2 Aug 2002 at 10:14, Cheng Tseng wrote:

> Were they?  I do not remember any FAA torpedo squadrons involved, and the
> only torpedo squadron the RAF's Coastal Command had in England (The rest
> were in the Med.) had Beauforts, if I remember correctly.

I'm fairly sure they were (ie my source is miles away and I can't 
check). They were mentioned in a history of the Beauforts' WWII 
experiences as being there.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:20:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:20:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <20020802102615.30aca70d97e74ef18326726c229541ca.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <3D4B91FA.13395.2C819C@localhost>

On 2 Aug 2002 at 10:28, Cheng Tseng wrote:

> Well, it would have greatly improved the British chances of attacking the
> German ships if it did not take until just before the Germans were passing
> the Straits of Dover to even know they were at sea.  At least then, the
> Brits could have had time to assemble an all-out attack instead of send the
> aircrafts in dribbles and drabs which allowed the Luftwaffe to kill them.
> One of Adolf Galland's finer moments, providing air cover for the cruisers.

Yep. It also helped that somewhere in the British communications chain 
they transformed from 30,000 ton battlecruisers at 30 knots to 20,000 
ton merchants at 20 knots, so the British pilots were all firing their 
torpedos with their sights set incorrectly.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:21:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:21:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMENMIJAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
References: <76.201d4ff6.2a7b1285@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B91FA.31831.2C81F6@localhost>

On 2 Aug 2002 at 9:23, John-Martin wrote:

> A config 7, dispersed structure, ship has the
> highest to hit target of any configuration.
> A high agility, high computer size A or less
> meson escort is the hardest to hit of any ship.
> Other weapons find it hard to hit with as well.
> Additionally, is features the lowest hull cost.
> 
> A Wombat swarmers is an anti capital ship weapon.
> They are realitively inexpensive, has low crew
> sizes, and back up computers, bridges and low berths to
> increase their staying power.
> 
> In game terms a Wombat has a size mod of -1, and agility
> of 6 and a computer 9 giving it a to hit mod of
> -14 + computer attacking ship (renderinging it unhittable
> by anything other then a Meson M meson spinal mountor
> better which a T hits on an  10, 11 or 12 , Q-s hit on
> 11 or 12 and the others only hit on a 12 assuming
> a type 9 computer with an allotment of two extra PP levels
> to soak up PP hits.  they have a back up level 9 computer
> and 30 low berths -- allowing for 3 levels of crew hits.
> In Trilion Credit Squadron senerios, they only soak
> up one pilot and work on the factor 9 meson gun column.
> 
> 1	10
> 2	9
> 3	7
> 4	4
> 5	3
> 6	6
> 7	12
> 8	2
> 9	11
> 
> before any modifactions. Most Capital ships are at least size B
> so it is at worst a +1 in any exchange of fire
> 
> Interesingly, with the backups and lack of Armour, she has
> weapon hits to fear the most -- she has no screens and jump
> drives, so spinal weapons are at a disadvantage against it --
> only 10 and 12 on pentrating hits are  mission kills on the
> radiation table while 8 and 11 are MKs on the Surface explosion
> table.  the +6 DM that sub 9 bay/batteries have acually hurt
> her more.  PA that can hurt it, at best -- assuming a 9 computer --
> need a 10 or better to hit while missiles need a seven
> at best

I'm not sure I follow this bit, and I think some of your numbers are a 
little off, too. How's it stack up to cruisers with (relatively) light 
spinal PAWS?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:23:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:23:12 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <177.c580aa7.2a7c4378@aol.com>

 >>> I bet that fighting hole full of cold rainwater I stepped
 >>> into near LZ Aardvark was put there by Doug.  Thanks, Doug.
 >
 >Only the best for my friends!  And he, I walked into my fair share of those.

My reserve unit was practicing out at an old guard facility.  I was running 
hard across a field with waist-high brush towards a large bush.  I made it to 
the bush and hurtled straight into an old fighting hole.  I slammed into the 
far side, bounced back against the near side, and wound up in a twisted 
tangle six feet down.  I never even saw the hole until I was at the bottom.

When I finally recovered and climbed out, everyone else had gone back to camp 
for dinner.  That was kind of disappointing.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Baboon Class Missile Frigate CREWS
Message-ID: <1ba.43235ef.2a7c49b7@aol.com>

 >>The Baboon Class Missile Frigate is a lightly equipped patrol/escort 
vehicle.
 >>
 >>In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships.
 >
 >  <QUIBBLE> Not really? By TL E or F dampers make these ships just
 >too inefficient, IIRC?

They are too inefficient to kill, yes.  But they can still be a royal pain in 
the ass.  In the end though capital ships can kill them but they can't kill 
capital ships.  Eventually they run out of missiles.

I think the big problem with this kind of boat is not their inefficiency, but 
their crews.  It would be hard enough to get competent and willing captains, 
pilots, and engineers with the necessary decades of experience for a few 
heavily armed and armored capital ships that have adequate living space and 
support cargo.  Finding thousands of deployable captains, pilots, and 
engineers who would be willing to live and fight in barely-adequate 
Volkswagens (as it were) would be a major problem.  I think this difficulty 
should be reflected in their skill levels.  I know TCS specifically and 
categorically states otherwise, but I think this issue is just too big and 
reasonable to so breezily ignore it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 14:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fred Ramen)
Date: Fri Aug  2 13:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Blowing holes in Japan (was " Re Patton")
Message-ID: <00d901c23a66$05486160$4a2bf7a5@pctframen>

I wrote:

 > A divided Japan
> would have made it almost impossible for the US to prosecute the war in
> Korea without the conflict spreading into a general US/Soviet war, for
> example.

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

"Well, I don't think this is all that likely. Uncle Joe did NOT want a
generalized US/Soviet war at the time of the Korean conflict, whetehr or
not they held part of Japan, or else it would have happened. <snip>"

Oh, I agree that the Stalin didn't want to expand the conflict any more than
Truman did. My point was merely that it would have been extremely unlikely
for the Soviets to allow a divided Japan (as posited in Mr. Whipsnade's
original post) to be used as a staging area for American intervention in
Korea (or Vietnam, for that matter).

Of course, I may be overstating the importance of Japan to US Pacific
security, and am quite open to being corrected in this regard.

Fred Ramen


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 15:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 14:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <112.1523c9f7.2a7c50e1@aol.com>

 >In the active service I've know many fine female sailors who were competent
 >technicians and fine seaman. And more than a few who were more competent
 >leaders than many of the critics who bemoaned the posting of woman to ships.

I've seen a handful.  Offsetting this, I've seen companies where every single 
corporal  and several sergeants get busted down for sex with the female 
privates.  I've seen active duty females refuse orders to perform physical 
tasks (like dumping trash cans) and tell sergeants to their face to "get a 
male to do it".  I've seen females who cannot, and I mean cannot, pass their 
limited physical fitness tests, who can't do  even seven pushups, but who 
still remain in units.  I've seen females who cannot climb the ladder from 
the shaft alley to the second deck and who have to be helped.  I've seen 
females finish their expensive training and then promptly be discharged 
because they're pregnant.

Whatever benefits they bring I think are outweighed by the negatives.  I'd 
dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their 
traditional roles of nurse and clerk.  If the US military is so hard-up for 
warm bodies that it really needs females, then I say reinstitute the WACS and 
WAVES and whatever else, with their own standards and their own chain of 
command, and put them in charge of stateside facilities like hospitals and 
supply depots and personnel offices so men are freed up for more forward 
duties.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 15:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Fri Aug  2 14:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <112.1523c9f7.2a7c50e1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208021425040.5733-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 2 Aug 2002 Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> Whatever benefits they bring I think are outweighed by the negatives.  I'd 
> dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their 
> traditional roles of nurse and clerk.  If the US military is so hard-up for 
> warm bodies that it really needs females, then I say reinstitute the WACS and 
> WAVES and whatever else, with their own standards and their own chain of 
> command, and put them in charge of stateside facilities like hospitals and 
> supply depots and personnel offices so men are freed up for more forward 
> duties.

I've been trying to decide whether or not to killfile you for a while--
thanks for helping me out.
**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 15:26:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Fri Aug  2 14:26:43 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <3D4B05EA.8754.5198B91@localhost>
Message-ID: <000001c23a6b$4f795aa0$6501a8c0@Darla>

> However in a fighter you probably are
> all alone, the nearest friendly is tens of kilometers away and there's
> nobody to see if you stand as a "hero" or run as a "coward".
> 
> Personally I don't think the massed fighter approach works over the
long
> term due to the cost in highly trained crew. However, I can well see
it
> being
> not that uncommon, especially when one side feels desperate.
> 

I can't agree that the isolation of the cockpit would do that.  I've
worked with a lot of RL fighter pilots, both Air Force and Navy, and for
the most part they would rather die than look bad, ESPECIALLY in front
of the rest of the squadron.

TWB


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 15:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Fri Aug  2 14:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CF9@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <000001c23a6d$ab25c260$6501a8c0@Darla>

> if the tables were turned. I have no doubt the Axis powers, had they
won,
> would have gone on a rampage of looting, rape, genocide, and
destruction
> that would boggle the mind, and luckily remains in the realm of
> science-fiction.

In fact, the Axis powers DID go on a rampage of looting, rape, genocide
and destruction.  That is why they had to be stopped.

TWB


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 15:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug  2 14:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CF9@USCHM203>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CF9@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <m3fzxxj5gp.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> writes:
> 
> Personally, I find it hard to shed many tears for Hiroshima,
> Nagasaki, or Dresden.

I dunno--the firebombing of Dresden is IMHO one of the worst war
crimes committed by the US.  Esp. the bit about destroying emergency
vehicles...

That no-one was ever strung up for it is a travesty.  We're supposed
to be better than that.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The betterment of fools, Goethe tells us, is the appropriate business of
other fools.  The Underground Grammarian does not seek to educate
anyone.  We intend rather to ridicule, humiliate, and infuriate those
who abuse our language not so that they will do better but so that they
will stop using language entirely or at least go away.
                         --The Underground Grammarian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 15:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dave Strebe)
Date: Fri Aug  2 14:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208021425040.5733-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <02Aug2.151432pdt.119054@gw.city.vancouver.bc.ca>

> On Fri, 2 Aug 2002 Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

<SNIP>

> I've been trying to decide whether or not to killfile you for a while--
> thanks for helping me out.

 Moi aussi.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 15:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug  2 14:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <00aa01c23a5c$4f293ca0$5d0bbd50@martinjd>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
 <m3ofclg93m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
 <004301c23a04$8cdeff60$0112bd50@martinjd>
 <m3eldhkv8o.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
 <00aa01c23a5c$4f293ca0$5d0bbd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <m3bs8lj5c2.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> writes:
>
> > > There are simulator drawbacks--`simulator sickness--which is
> > > kind of psychosomatic motion sickness, can begin to manifest
> > > itself on real missions (or cause them to not do certain things
> > > because they expect sim sickness).
> >
> > Again, a sufficiently advanced computer (I'm talking about Moore's
> > law for 2,000 years: capacity increasing by 1.5 every 1.5 years
> > for 2,000 years is a 6.1425e234 increase; by 2 every 2 years is a
> > 1.0715e301 increase) can model sufficiently well that one will
> > experience bad effects exactly as in real life...
> 
> Okay, if you can manage to simulate g stress and all the other stuff
> too, then my comment above doesn't apply.  If not, it does. You need
> more than an amazing computer for this.  Which translates to again,
> I don't believe in perfect simulators.'

Well, if you can damp inertia and can create artificial gravity, I'm
pretty certain that you can fake high-g effects (or rather, create
them).  I don't think that the physics would necessarily be all that
difficult; trivial, probably, for a society which has those things.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
When the water of a place is bad it is safest to drink none that has not
been filtered through either the berry of a grape, or else a tub of malt.
These are the most reliable filters yet invented.        --Samuel Butler

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <m3ofclg93m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <000001c23a70$28580340$6501a8c0@Darla>

> 
> You really think that a computer can be powerful enough to simulate
> all that and yet not have safeguards to prevent death?  I would
> imagine that it'd be just like a modern simulator: screw up and you
> get the `shatter screen.'
> 
> Although it could also be used to give you a nasty shock or something
> every time you screw up...
> 

Not necessarily.  I was working on an F-15 trainer a few years ago and
stepped out of the seat to reach a terminal while leaving the aircraft
"in flight".  It took a bit longer that I thought it would, and the
uncontrolled simulated jet ended up impacting the "earth" at Mach
1.something.  

The control loader on the stick modeled stick forces due to the
accelerations of the aircraft, so in response to the massive g-loading
of the crash, drove the stick violently aft.  It is my good fortune that
I was not in the way of the stick when it drove aft, since it hit the
stops hard enough to snap a stainless steel cable in the control loader.


Needless to say, we added some safety limits in this area before the
trainer got delivered.

Tom Barnes


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <3D4B91FA.31831.2C81F6@localhost>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHGEPBIJAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

I'm not sure I follow this bit, and I think some of your numbers are a 
little off, too. How's it stack up to cruisers with (relatively) light 
spinal PAWS?

-- 
>>>>>>>>>>>>
One would need numbers but add 7 (agility 6 + 1 [size modifier for 
size A]) plus the difference in computer rating and the PAW to hit 
number to arrive at the number you have to roll higher then to hit.  

At best you hit one Wombat a bit worse then half the time, at worst you 
need a ten or better.  

Anyway, once you hit, you only get the first twelve hit types to play
with being a spinal mount. The Wombat carries 3 crew replacements, has
an extra computer and bridge.  It lacks a jump drive and screens 
and keeps its agility for 2 PP factor losses.  Fuel tank shattered and
weapons hits are your only mission kills.  Power Plant hit beyond 2
still leave the Wombat functional, it looses agility.  It takes 8 PP hits
to render the Meson gun un-operational

Fire the other way depends on the other ship,  Knock off nine for the 
computer.    Target numbers and damage table modifier depend on the target.

Please recall, this is not an uber weapon, it is a niche ship.  However it
is a surprisingly survivable one considering it costs about as much as the
main gun of a capital ship and displaces 1000 tons.  As SDB's these would
be extremely effective and carried as a rider, I see this as a very useful
mason artillery support platform or em mass to bulldog battlewagons.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
Message-ID: <151.11d787f6.2a7c5dcb@aol.com>

 > >Also, does a crippled fighter neccessarily mean dead crewman?
 >
 > using ct tables, a factor 9 salvo against a 90 ton fighter results in 9
 > critical hits, of which a roll of 2 or 10 ( 1/36 + 3/36 ) represent 
immediate
 > crew death (we'll ignore the presence or absence of rescue vessels, the
 > consequences to a pilot of loss of power in his ship, etc).  this results 
in
 > a ( 1 - ( 32 / 36 ) ^ 9 ) or a 65.4% chance of crew death upon being hit.  
I
 > don't know what typical fighter-pilot survival rates are, but I'll bet 
that's
 > comparable to those of japanese zero's in ww2.

 >The pilot casualty rates you quote above are much too high, IMHO.  They are 
only
 >true if the attacker is using TL15 100-ton meson gun bays or if the fighter 
is
 >unarmored.

In CT HG TL15 100-ton meson guns cannot hit fighters except at short range, 
and then only on 12+.  I wasn't considering meson guns, they're worthless 
against fighters.

A 90-ton CT HG TL15 fighter will have militarily-insignifcant armor.  90 
tons, -18 tons bridge, -15.3 tons maneuver 6, -1 PMS turret, -13 model 9 
computer, -18.4 power plant, -18.4 power plant fuel, -2 crew cabin, -1 
missile magazine, leaves 2.9.  Assuming no low berths, cargo, air lock, or 
other housekeeping / survival aids for the crew then 2.9 tons will support 
armor 2, which will remove the effects of one automatic critical hit.  Final 
crew death rate from automatic critical hits will be ( 1 - ( 32/36 ) ^ 8 ) 
for a total of 61.0%.  This does not count the normal damage from the hit, 
3/36 of which will be interior explosions or critical hits.  You can do the 
math for those.

IMTU computers are a normal part of bridge equipment, and do not consume 
space or energy, so my fighters _do_ have armor 15.  But no-one else seems to 
do this.

 >Fighters IMTU carry maximum armor.  This would reduce the non-meson crits 
 >listed above from 9 to 2, with a corresponding increase in crew survival.

Yes, it does -- but then you're not using CT HG, which is what I was talking 
about.  Or, if you are, then the fighters will either have ineffective 
computers or be severely slow, either of which will leave them vulnerable to 
rapid incapacitation.

 >I agree that a sub-100dT fighter cannot carry a weapon which can hurt a TL15
 >capital ship, mostly because of the difference in computer size.  This is 
why the
 >"fighters" in the smoke test were actually 1000dT boats with factor-9 
missile
 >bays.

Your fighters were 1000 tons?!!

I think we need standardization of terms.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
Message-ID: <a4.29dd5f76.2a7c5f34@aol.com>

 >>> including not commenting on how a
 >>> Washington police officer can be hired with felony convictions on his/her
 >>> record, provided that none were more recent than ten years ago at the 
time
 >>> of application.
 >> 
 >> Well, to be fair, if they didn't follow this hiring policy then could they
 >> find anyone to hire?
 >
 >But they couldn't carry a gun.  They'd be a prohibited person under Federal
 >law, unless they had filed for and received a 'relief from disability' from
 >the ATF.  And congress has stopped funding this program, so none are being
 >done.

That's a problem only if you intend to enforce the law.  Since it's not a 
problem for them then the conclusion to be drawn is obvious.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <d1.1c449e1a.2a7c6094@aol.com>

 >  As an aside, why are you not discussing the frigates that you 
 >had posited as the sole class of warship in the post to which I
 >was responding?

Because the question dealt specifically with capital ship viability.  It was 
late, I just latched onto fighters and did the math.  You can do the same 
math for the frigates if you like.  Capital ships will do better against the 
frigates, but they'll still lose fairly badly.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] max hull size
Message-ID: <ff.1ba47012.2a7c6111@aol.com>

 >Again, I'm assuming CT.  Let's see .... at tech 12, max hull size is 
199,999 
 
   <1 MT (USP X) per HG2, pps. 26 & 28.

Sorry -- CT HG.  I don't know what HG2 does.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <20020802224421.60004.qmail@web20414.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>

>"John T. Kwon" wrote:
>
>>I think I see a pattern here...
>>
>>long time Traveller player...
>>joins the military (some of us wished we did)...

[deletion]

>After "mustering out", I spent alot of time doing the usual PC
thing,
>hanging around in pubs looking for something exciting to do.
>
>SPOILER ALERT
[deletion]
>Unfortunately, though I met many fascinating (and in some cases 
>possibly alien) characters, I was never asked to rescue a senator
>from an Imperial prison hulk, reunite a Chirper with his siblings, 

Well, I never joined the military, but I did work for the Post Office
one summer, and I have on many occasions in my career as a lawyer
travelled with a team of variously normal, neurotic, and psychotic
professionals to exotic, distant cities (like Denver and Minneapolis)
to review documents in conference rooms, or to interrogate witnesses
in conference rooms.  It's been an exciting life.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net><m3ofclg93m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org><004301c23a04$8cdeff60$0112bd50@martinjd><m3eldhkv8o.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org><00aa01c23a5c$4f293ca0$5d0bbd50@martinjd> <m3bs8lj5c2.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <012601c23a78$2c1d4f00$5d0bbd50@martinjd>

>
> Well, if you can damp inertia and can create artificial gravity, I'm
> pretty certain that you can fake high-g effects (or rather, create
> them).  I don't think that the physics would necessarily be all that
> difficult; trivial, probably, for a society which has those things.
>

If you can do these things, then simulator problems I've outlined are
greatly diminished (most of them). I don't imagine this sort of thing is
available for $35 in a playstation game, though.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208021425040.5733-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <013101c23a78$5f05d720$5d0bbd50@martinjd>

>
> > Whatever benefits they bring I think are outweighed by the negatives.
I'd
> > dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their
> > traditional roles of nurse and clerk.  If the US military is so hard-up
for
> > warm bodies that it really needs females, then I say reinstitute the
WACS and
> > WAVES and whatever else, with their own standards and their own chain of
> > command, and put them in charge of stateside facilities like hospitals
and
> > supply depots and personnel offices so men are freed up for more forward
> > duties.


Such sweeping prejudice. I am impressed.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <112.1523c9f7.2a7c50e1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <014a01c23a78$a159d220$5d0bbd50@martinjd>

>
> I've seen a handful.  Offsetting this, I've seen companies where every
single
> corporal  and several sergeants get busted down for sex with the female
> privates.  I've seen active duty females refuse orders to perform physical
> tasks (like dumping trash cans) and tell sergeants to their face to "get a
> male to do it".  I've seen females who cannot, and I mean cannot, pass
their
> limited physical fitness tests, who can't do  even seven pushups, but who
> still remain in units.  I've seen females who cannot climb the ladder from
> the shaft alley to the second deck and who have to be helped.  I've seen
> females finish their expensive training and then promptly be discharged
> because they're pregnant.

Yeah, and I've seen human beings who were skilled and competent and
determined and motivated and just plain better than me being kept down
because they were born female. You can't damn half the human race on a
generality.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in travell
Message-ID: <memo.561258@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <F244ozCsVINDnKgXhLy00004901@hotmail.com>
> >The US Army did studies in which they discovered that the
> >longest that a solider can stay in a combat zone is about
> >100 days.  After that, he falls apart.  So the Army began
> >rotating units to rest areas so they could recharge a little
> >and get roaring drunk and contract VD before going back
> >into the line.  It will be harder for the Imperium to do this,
> >but I think it would be a priority to establish some sort of
> >safe zone for the troops.
> 
> It's an old saw that military service is extended periods of
> boredom punctuated by short periods of stark terror.  Imagine
> if an army used sleeper ships to move their troops around...
> soldiers whose military service consisted of sleeping through
> the extended periods of boredom, and only being awake for the
> periods of stark terror.
> 
> That kind of setup might be cheap when it came to starship
> life support costs, but I imagine the impact on the soldiers'
> psyches would be extreme.
 
Many, many years ago I played in a Traveller game where a vicious little 
war had broken out in the sector we happened to be in. While the rest of 
the party thought about mercenary tickets or intelligence gathering, I 
went off and found an unused planet somewhere about half way between the 
warring factions and set up a really big R&R centre, the only rule was no 
weapons and the war got left outside. Place was generally swarming with 
troops from both sides, and I made a pile :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:55:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:55:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <memo.561259@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <02Aug2.151432pdt.119054@gw.city.vancouver.bc.ca>
> > On Fri, 2 Aug 2002 Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> 
> <SNIP>
> 
> > I've been trying to decide whether or not to killfile you for a 
> > while--
> > thanks for helping me out.
> 
>  Moi aussi.

I am laughing too hard to issue the requisite command.

Mexal.
former infantry sergeant of the female persuasion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 16:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 15:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <20020802225803.30867.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Flykiller@aol.com

>>The Germans, and particularly the Japanese were horribly
>>dehumanized.  We made our enemies into monsters so then it was OK 
>>to exterminate them.
>
>Seems to be part of the human condition.  Not only is the enemy an 
>inhuman monster and responsible for any and all evil, _we_ are pure
>as the wind-driven snow in any and all circumstances.  "It's Al
>Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"

This is indeed an old tradition.  The German propagandists in WW2
created the Untermensch to describe various Slavic and Jewish
enemies, and used horrific cartoons to depict them ("Das ist der
Untermensch:  Gott hilf uns von solche wie diesen!" I recall one
saying).  

Indeed, the Battle of Maldon, an English poem from about 900AD,
concerns a fight between Angles (maybe Saxons; I forget) and Vikings.
 The Angles are named and give brave and gallant speeches as they
die.  The Vikings are always called "the wolvish Viking" ("tha
wulflic wicinga"), and they always insult the Angles whom they are
killing.  ("Feelthy English whose mother was a hamster ..." sorry,
wrong piece of English literature.)

--Glenn


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 17:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 16:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Civility APOLOGY
Message-ID: <36.2b6babed.2a7c6bba@aol.com>

 >>     "Yes, basking in verbally-asserted superiority is indeed much more 
 >pleasant than risking actual defeat.  But of course indulging in this makes 
 >you a (description deleted by LEW)"
 > 
 > 
 >Sir,
 >
 >     This post was completely uncalled for, in very poor taste, and little 
 >more than flame bait.  Posting such a message was definitely beneath you.  
I 
 >cannot believe you would normally behave in such a manner.  Passions may be 
 >running high on both sides of this discussion, but that doesn't mean we 
need 
 >to lower ourselves and make personal attacks.
 >     All of us on the List have been guilty of such behavior in the past, 
 >myself especially, but we all also try to conduct ourselves in as civil a 
 >manner as possible.  Because we're human, sometimes we fail.  However, we 
 >all still try.
 >    Your opinions and views have kicked off quite an interesting thread 
 >here on the List.  I have found your responses to other threads interesting 
 >also.  However, posting a message such as the one in question will do 
little 
 >more than earn you a place in many members' kill files.  Your posts, 
 >observations, and opinions deserve a better fate than that.
 >     I look forward to your future posts on a variety of threads and feel 
 >certain that you will conduct yourself in a truly civil manner.
 >
 > 
 >     Sincerely,
 >     William R. Cameron, aka Larsen E. Whipsnade

How can I answer such courteousness?

I fully apologize to Walt Smith, and withdraw my statement without further 
comment.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 17:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 16:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Blowing holes in Japan (was " Re Patton")
References: <00d901c23a66$05486160$4a2bf7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <3D4B1239.5090805@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Fred Ramen wrote:

> Oh, I agree that the Stalin didn't want to expand the conflict any more than
> Truman did. My point was merely that it would have been extremely unlikely
> for the Soviets to allow a divided Japan (as posited in Mr. Whipsnade's
> original post) to be used as a staging area for American intervention in
> Korea (or Vietnam, for that matter).
> 
> Of course, I may be overstating the importance of Japan to US Pacific
> security, and am quite open to being corrected in this regard.

Actually, the main reason we used Japan as the staging area was because 
we were there and it was close.

Had we been denied the use of Japan, we'd have used the Phillipines instead.

Same thing goes for Vietnam.

Then again, had it come to a divided Japan a 'la Germany, the whole Cold 
War thing would have gone quite differently. Vietnam would probably not 
have happened in any way like it did.

(Also, do not forget that during the Korean War, Germany was divided, 
but not like it was later...the Berlin Wall didn't go up until the 60's, 
and we'd just shown Stalin we were willing to go toe-to-toe over Germany 
during the Berlin Airlift. )

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 17:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 16:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <200208022348.g72Nmuw05627@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
>Subject: RE: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
...
>A Wombat swarmers is an anti capital ship weapon.
...
>ARMAMENT
>1 100-ton Meson Bay (Factor-9)

  The 12+ to penetrate a USP one Meson Screen isn't a concern?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 17:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Fri Aug  2 16:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <20020802194954.28a957e7c9c445afb801cb79a22bb3ad.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>On 2 Aug 2002 at 10:28, Cheng Tseng wrote:
>
>> Well, it would have greatly improved the British chances of attacking the
>> German ships if it did not take until just before the Germans were passing
>> the Straits of Dover to even know they were at sea.  At least then, the
>> Brits could have had time to assemble an all-out attack instead of send the
>> aircrafts in dribbles and drabs which allowed the Luftwaffe to kill them.
>> One of Adolf Galland's finer moments, providing air cover for the cruisers.
>
>Yep. It also helped that somewhere in the British communications chain 
>they transformed from 30,000 ton battlecruisers at 30 knots to 20,000 
>ton merchants at 20 knots, so the British pilots were all firing their 
>torpedos with their sights set incorrectly.

Even today, I am still amazed just how lucky the Germans were.  Even with
all their planning, they still could not have predicted the good fortune
they actually got.

Running out of Brest before just about everybody on the British side
believing they would (Bertram Ramsey was apparently the only British
commanding officer who thought the S, G and PRINZ EUGEN would make the dash
so soon.).  Managing to do so at the time the submarine assigned to monitor
Brest was standing out to charge her batteries.  Evading all THREE maritime
search aircraft patrol lines either because the aircrafts had busted
equipment or extremely bad flying weather.  Having so few British torpedo
aircrafts facing them, and having that number cut down even more because the
mobile torpedor service and rearmament unit providing the torpedors got
bogged down in a snow storm.  The list is just mind-boggling.

Okay, I must be suffering from premature Alzheimer's.  There was Swordfishes
during the Dash.  Ouch, one entire flight completely wiped out, with no
survivors.  At least something like half the other flight crews manage to
escape with their lives.

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

 My Sale List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
 My Want List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: max hull size
Message-ID: <200208030007.g7307Bw08657@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Flykiller@aol.com
>Subject: [TML] max hull size
...
> >Again, I'm assuming CT.  Let's see .... at tech 12, max hull size is 
>199,999 
> 
>   <1 MT (USP X) per HG2, pps. 26 & 28.
>
>Sorry -- CT HG.  I don't know what HG2 does.

  OMG - someone _uses_ HG1?! I only got a copy by accident...
neat read, though.

  BTW, do the Reprints include both editions of HG?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Meduim Navies
Message-ID: <3D4B1F7E.736A3F94@mail.cswnet.com>

This may have gotten lost in my last post and the minor flame spat 
going on, so I'll throw it out again and see if anyone bites.

What would the Imperuim see as the maximum allowable size, maximum
allowable quantitative/qualitative weaponry, for a mercenary ship?

Presumabley they would frown on paws and meson guns, but would they
allow big bay weapons?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption (was: warship optimization)
References: <F176AUfKRfcjcMzfoV100024006@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B20D8.AB8EE248@pobox.com>


"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:

> From: Bill Hopper <whopper@pobox.com>
>
>      "I agree that a sub-100dT fighter cannot carry a weapon which can hurt
> a TL15 capital ship, mostly because of the difference in computer size.
> This is why the "fighters" in the smoke test were actually 1000dT boats with
> factor-9 missile bays."
>
> Mr. Hopper,
>
>      The fighter designs used in the smoke tests I was referring to were
> sub-100Ton types.  They were also run at TL12.  Here are the USPs:

I apologize for my confusion.  I must have confused a couple of threads.  I
remembered the missile boat discussion and mistakenly thought it was what you
referred to.

WKH


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <000001c23a6b$4f795aa0$6501a8c0@Darla>
Message-ID: <B9706F61.67837%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/2/02 2:26 PM, Thomas Barnes at twb3@charter.net wrote:

>> However in a fighter you probably are
> 
> I can't agree that the isolation of the cockpit would do that.  I've
> worked with a lot of RL fighter pilots, both Air Force and Navy, and for
> the most part they would rather die than look bad, ESPECIALLY in front
> of the rest of the squadron.

This goes back to what I was saying earlier about the importance of small
groups in the military.  People often do dangerous and risky things for no
other reason than to not look bad in front of their squad mates, or just not
let them down.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] max hull size
References: <ff.1ba47012.2a7c6111@aol.com>
Message-ID: <009d01c23a84$ad976730$7400a8c0@matt>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
>> Again, I'm assuming CT.  Let's see .... at tech 12, max hull size is
>> 199,999
>
>    <1 MT (USP X) per HG2, pps. 26 & 28.
>
> Sorry -- CT HG.  I don't know what HG2 does.

HG2 is CT Book 5: High Guard, 2nd edition.

It was published in 1980, replacing the 1st edition published in 1979. There
was a series of articles in JTAS at the time on updating your version from
1st to 2nd to save you buying a new copy. Obviously this passed you by.

The version in the CT Reprints is HG2.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <200208030033.LYB00224@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Glenn M. Goffin" says
>I have on many occasions in my career as a lawyer

Often, I have marvelled at how some of the more intelligent 
people I have met (successful intelligent people, that is) 
have a carefully selected lawyer and a carefully selected 
accountant.

Most Traveller parties need a full time lawyer - but how many 
have you seen with one? 
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <99.2a2d475a.2a779a93@aol.com> <3D4A0109.D48E52E6@pobox.com> <005801c23a04$ec770b20$0112bd50@martinjd> <006401c23a0f$3ca9da00$7400a8c0@matt> <003201c23a14$66243100$7d03bd50@martinjd> <00a601c23a14$be1ddbe0$7400a8c0@matt> <005901c23a1d$16700d60$7d03bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3D4B277E.4E21AE33@pobox.com>

Matt, Martin,
I agree with both points presented below.  I think fighters should be more
effective in a coordinated, massed attack than they are individually.  I also
agree that 'coordinated' is the key term.

My solution is to group fighters into a 'squadron' so that their weapons can be
combined into one battery. But to do so, the squadrom must have a controlling or
'master' fighter.  The squadron's combined attack is treated as if it is one
battery, and uses the rating of the computer in the controlling fighter with an
additional -1 modifier.

All fighters in a squadron have to be of the same type, with the same agility.
Damaged fighters drop out of the squadron and become individuals.

So a squadron of 10 fighters, each with a triple laser turret, and controlled by
a master fighter with a model 8 computer, would attack as a single code-9
battery fired by a model 7 computer.

If the master fighter is destroyed, the squadron disintegrates into 10
individual fighters.  If a fighter is damaged or destroyed, the battery's rating
is reduced appropriately.  Undamaged fighters can be re-integrated into
squadrons by spending a turn in the reserve with a new master.

Role-playing never came up in relation to this, but for role-playing purposes I
would have the master fighter making recommendations to the pilots of the
squadron, perhaps through a Heads Up Display.  The individual pilots could
disregard the recommendations if they were willing to accept the consequences.

WKH

MJ Dougherty wrote:

> > > Why do you want fighters to be more effective?
> >
> > So that they can have an outside possibility of damaging Capital ships at
> > high TL
>
> And again, why do you want this? Barring me swallowing some and suffering
> some strange kind of poisoning, no amount of flies can beat me in a straight
> fight. My feeling is that fightrers are good for screening and keeping
> merchies in line. Big ships are for killing big ships.
>
> > >
> > > I see the concept, though you'd have to simulate C3 breakdowns, loss
> > > of cohesion etc
> >
> > Sure, just as soon as we do the same for the escorting PD ships of the
> > defending Fleet...
>
> Indeed, though coordinaitng a useful fighter attack requires external comms.
> Escorts can operate on internal comms (hard to jam) and even independently,
> can be useful if the captains are smart. Uncoordinated fighters are just as
> big mess.
>
> >
> > HG is pretty abstract anyway, so this level of detail is unnecessary IMHO.
> > All I am doing is letting Fighters act like Turrets. If several turrets
> can
> > concentrate their fire to increase their effectiveness, why can't several
> > fighters?
>
> Becuase turrets are controlled with internal comms, hardwired through the
> ship, while ifghters have to talk externally and are subject to jamming or
> other problems. And becuase you don't get a battery of turrests scattering
> due to evasion and having to reform.
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <99.2a2d475a.2a779a93@aol.com> <3D4A0109.D48E52E6@pobox.com> <005801c23a04$ec770b20$0112bd50@martinjd> <006401c23a0f$3ca9da00$7400a8c0@matt> <003201c23a14$66243100$7d03bd50@martinjd> <00a601c23a14$be1ddbe0$7400a8c0@matt> <005901c23a1d$16700d60$7d03bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3D4B2746.90DDF4D1@pobox.com>

Matt, Martin,
I agree with both points presented below.  I think fighters should be more
effective in a coordinated, massed attack than they are individually.  I also
agree that 'coordinated' is the key term.

My solution is to group fighters into a 'squadron' so that their weapons can be
combined into one battery. But to do so, the squadrom must have a controlling or
'master' fighter.  The squadron's combined attack is treated as if it is one
battery, and uses the rating of the computer in the controlling fighter with an
additional -1 modifier.

All fighters in a squadron have to be of the same type, with the same agility.
Damaged fighters drop out of the squadron and become individuals.

So a squadron of 10 fighters, each with a triple laser turret, and controlled by
a master fighter with a model 8 computer, would attack as a single code-9
battery fired by a model 7 computer.

If the master fighter is destroyed, the squadron disintegrates into 10
individual fighters.  If a fighter is damaged or destroyed, the battery's rating
is reduced appropriately.  Undamaged fighters can be re-integrated into
squadrons by spending a turn in the reserve with a new master.

Role-playing never came up in relation to this, but for role-playing purposes I
would have the master fighter making recommendations to the pilots of the
squadron, perhaps through a Heads Up Display.  The individual pilots could
disregard the recommendations if they were willing to accept the consequences.

WKH

MJ Dougherty wrote:

> > > Why do you want fighters to be more effective?
> >
> > So that they can have an outside possibility of damaging Capital ships at
> > high TL
>
> And again, why do you want this? Barring me swallowing some and suffering
> some strange kind of poisoning, no amount of flies can beat me in a straight
> fight. My feeling is that fightrers are good for screening and keeping
> merchies in line. Big ships are for killing big ships.
>
> > >
> > > I see the concept, though you'd have to simulate C3 breakdowns, loss
> > > of cohesion etc
> >
> > Sure, just as soon as we do the same for the escorting PD ships of the
> > defending Fleet...
>
> Indeed, though coordinaitng a useful fighter attack requires external comms.
> Escorts can operate on internal comms (hard to jam) and even independently,
> can be useful if the captains are smart. Uncoordinated fighters are just as
> big mess.
>
> >
> > HG is pretty abstract anyway, so this level of detail is unnecessary IMHO.
> > All I am doing is letting Fighters act like Turrets. If several turrets
> can
> > concentrate their fire to increase their effectiveness, why can't several
> > fighters?
>
> Becuase turrets are controlled with internal comms, hardwired through the
> ship, while ifghters have to talk externally and are subject to jamming or
> other problems. And becuase you don't get a battery of turrests scattering
> due to evasion and having to reform.
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: troll optimization on the TML
Message-ID: <200208030048.LYB01066@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mexal says
>I am laughing too hard to issue the requisite command.
>
>Mexal.
>former infantry sergeant of the female persuasion.

Mex, you need to have Fly run around the parade ground until 
you get tired...
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:50:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:50:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re: max hull size
Message-ID: <200208030049.LYB01145@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Steven Hudson asks
>  BTW, do the Reprints include both editions of HG?

Nope. The reprints have HG2 (which was, in its time, issued 
very briefly).
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:53:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:53:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <014a01c23a78$a159d220$5d0bbd50@martinjd>
References: <112.1523c9f7.2a7c50e1@aol.com>
 <014a01c23a78$a159d220$5d0bbd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <m3znw4epbc.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> writes:
> 
> Yeah, and I've seen human beings who were skilled and competent and
> determined and motivated and just plain better than me being kept
> down because they were born female.  You can't damn half the human
> race on a generality.

And I daresay that if we have women serving in full combat capacity
under the regimes of either seperate standards (i.e. where they must
not meet the same standards as men) or reduced standards (e.g. I
understand that two-man stretcher teams are now four or more), we will
see plenty of human beings who die miserably because their comrades
are not up to the task.

And I hardly think that shielding from death and destruction is
`damning.'  Rather a nice thing to do, as a matter of fact.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
There has grown in the minds of certain groups in this country the
idea that just because a man or corporation has made a profit out of
the public for a number of years, the government and the courts are
charged with guaranteeing such profit in the future, even in the face
of changing circumstances and contrary to public interest.  This
strange doctrine is supported by neither statue or common law.  Neither
corporations or individuals have the right to come into court and ask
that the clock of history be stopped, or turned back.
                  --Robert Heinlein, Life Line, 1939

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 18:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  2 17:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Meduim Navies
Message-ID: <200208030055.LYB01410@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Roseberry says
>What would the Imperuim see as the maximum allowable size, 
>maximum allowable quantitative/qualitative weaponry, for a 
>mercenary ship?
>

I believe that it should not be so much ship size, as a 
merchant could very well be a 100,000 ton ship.

As for the quantity of weaponry, that should be dealt with in 
combination with the quality.  I think that the limitation 
should be "is is a weapon of mass destruction?"

Along those lines, I think that most fusion weapons should be 
OK, since they are short range. You would have to be in range 
of planetary defenses to use them.  

PAWS of any size should be OK.  They do not penetrate 
atmospheres, and are not wide area effects weapons.

Meson guns - probably a no no in any size or quantity.

No nuclear warheads.

I would think that lasers would have to be of a wavelength 
that is guaranteed to be absorbed by atmosphere.  There are 
some tunable deuterium flouride lasers today that experience 
close to zero loss over their operational range in 
atmosphere.  These could be effective weapons of 
assassination - something I wouldn't want mercenaries to have.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 19:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Barnett-Lewis)
Date: Fri Aug  2 18:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <20020802231503.19852.60096.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B3637.35538EB8@mailbag.com>

Flykiller@aol.com said:
> Whatever benefits they bring I think are outweighed by the negatives.  I'd
> dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their
> traditional roles of nurse and clerk.  If the US military is so hard-up for
> warm bodies that it really needs females, then I say reinstitute the WACS and
> WAVES and whatever else, with their own standards and their own chain of
> command, and put them in charge of stateside facilities like hospitals and
> supply depots and personnel offices so men are freed up for more forward
> duties.
>

Pity. I had thought not to killfile you. Now I know better. 

Not quite Clint, yet even Clint had some intellegent moments.

For the record, as a male US Army NCO, I had far fewer problems with
female soldiers than with certain of my own physical gender.

William
Ex-E5 USA
19E, 19D, 11B, 96B
-- 
You better watch out   What you wish for;
It better be worth it  So much to die for.
		       Courtney Love

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 20:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 19:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <m3znw4epbc.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <B97089CA.67857%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/2/02 5:52 PM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> And I daresay that if we have women serving in full combat capacity
> under the regimes of either seperate standards (i.e. where they must
> not meet the same standards as men) or reduced standards (e.g. I
> understand that two-man stretcher teams are now four or more), we will
> see plenty of human beings who die miserably because their comrades
> are not up to the task.
> 
> And I hardly think that shielding from death and destruction is
> `damning.'  Rather a nice thing to do, as a matter of fact.

But this is the TML, and one supposes that in the 57th century, the measure
of a sophont's fitness for a particular duty is tied to their ability to
perform it.  One may assume that the Imperium establishes baseline
requirements for, say an MOS, and holds to those standards regardless of
race or gender.  This may result in a higher proportion of males in a
particular MOS, perhaps females in another.


--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 20:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  2 19:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <200208021317.LXD04141@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208021317.LXD04141@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020803121831.A14679@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> A large system like this would have to maintain a considerable
> number of ships in order to defend these assets,

Oh, I agree entirely.  The post upon which I was commenting used the
Battle of the Atlantic as an example of how commerce raiders might
cripple your economy.  I was just pointing out that systems in
Traveller are hundreds of times less dependent upon external trade
than England was.

In-system commerce raiding in Traveller is a different matter
entirely.  The ability of a small enemy force to jump in nearly
anywhere, do some damage and pop out again is extremely difficult to
defend against.  However, the defending ships do not need jump drives
or jump fuel, which makes them significantly cheaper and hence able to
pack a lot more punch for a given size/cost.  Important planets have
their supplies locally produced, which greatly simplifies logistics.



> and protect shipping between these points.  Convoys may be forced to
> use jump ships to do intrasystem jumps to avoid raiders,

Not likely, I would think.  That would cripple your economy worse than
losing 70% of your ships.  You'd be better off escorting them in
normal space, since non-jump ships are so much cheaper than jump
capable ones.

It should not be forgotten that any information the raiders have must
always be at least two weeks out of date by the time they strike.


> and ships inbound/outbound from the system would have to jump at the
> 100D limit without fail after being escorted the entire distance to
> and from the port.

No.  The raider ships aren't going to strike inside the 100D limit of
any meaningful system.

1) If they try, the planetary defences *will* make mincemeat of them
in short order.

2) It is much riskier for them to hit the 'jump' button if they meet
something nastier than them.  And they will, see (1).

3) Their information is two weeks out of date.  Their arrival time is
uncertain to at least a few hours.  They have to strike when a target
is at least half-way out, in the right direction, but hasn't reached
the limit yet.  That's a pretty narrow window, and even then requires
that no sizable armed vessels be nearby.


> In essence, laying siege to such a system might first mean whittling
> down the system defense boats and local fighters with fighter raids
> and light commerce raiders.  You might, after a time, be left only
> with your larger monitors, port defenses, and planetary defense
> sites.

I think you're ignoring the effect of your own losses of any non-jump
ships, and of local replenishment.  You've got a much longer supply
line.


> Ships as small as fighters may also lay mines on courses to sweep
> through traffic areas.

Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.
Another problem is that "high traffic areas" change with the relative
positions of the planets, and even then they will be *very* sparse.

A typical "trading lane" between planets would probably be a region a
few hundred million kilometres long with an average cross-section of a
few tens of trillions of square kilometres.  How many mines do you
propose to put in it?

I could imagine trying to mine a gas-giant; that might work since they
could be rendered undetectable by the atmosphere and yet be within
range of a intruding craft.  However, you would almost certainly be
hit by any pre-existing mines or other defences that were in place
while you were trying to lay them.


>  I would bet that for such an advanced system, while it might well
> be able to subsist on its own, it won't profit as much, especially
> if it engages in trade with a nearby world of similar stature.

Given that most major worlds have trade less than 0.2% of GWP, profits
will be virtually untouched.  Even the major neighbouring worlds of
Rhylanor and Porozlo have trade with each other that is only 1% of
their GWPs.  Look at the countries that have trade somewhere around
0.4% of your nation's GDP, and think about how strong an effect there
would be on your economy if you lost the ability to trade with one of
them in wartime.


> A continuous series of light hit and run raids would force 
> diversion of assets you would ordinarily use elsewhere,

You would also suffer pretty significant attrition yourself, and your
ships are both more expensive and harder to replace.


But overall, I agree that insystem raiding might be a viable tactic.
Keep the raids to areas outside a planet's 100D limit, though.  Target
commerce routes in interplanetary space.  Have excellent sensors to
spot commercial traffic at very long range.  Have high enough thrust
that you can reach targets before the system defences do.  Don't
bother with a stealthy ship -- your jump flash will be spotted anyway,
and you will be tracked automatically.  Use a large number of
alternate refuelling locations in the outer system or in deep space.

The biggest problem for the defender is the ability for the raider to
jump out whenever things are looking risky, without any possibility of
pursuit.  Q-ships are about the only reasonable counter I can think of
at the moment, and even then only to the extent that they can maul the
raiders in the two rounds it takes for them to discover their error
and jump out.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 20:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug  2 19:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <B97089CA.67857%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B97089CA.67857%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m3vg6sejwf.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> 
> But this is the TML, and one supposes that in the 57th century, the
> measure of a sophont's fitness for a particular duty is tied to
> their ability to perform it.  One may assume that the Imperium
> establishes baseline requirements for, say an MOS, and holds to
> those standards regardless of race or gender.  This may result in a
> higher proportion of males in a particular MOS, perhaps females in
> another.

Yep.  I've heard, for example, a theory that women might actually make
better fighter pilots, due to endurance or soemthing like that.
They're also supposed to be better in things like radar rooms.  But
I'm certainly no expert on gender differences.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
French General: `I knew it.  You Germans are only useful as garrison soldiers.'
German Colonel: `True.  In the last war, we garrisoned Paris, Nice, Lyon...'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 20:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Aug  2 19:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Baboon Class Missile Frigate CREWS
References: <20020802231503.19852.60096.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00f401c23a99$36e54e80$c15d8690@computer>

> From: Flykiller@aol.com
> They are too inefficient to kill, yes.  But they can still be a royal pain
> in the ass.  In the end though capital ships can kill them but they can't
> kill capital ships.  Eventually they run out of missiles.

Only in the real world, not in HG. : )

For what it's worth, these things are as cheap as chips. 1500 Missile Bays
fired at one or two capital ships will mission kill them pretty thoroughly.

They do actually die a little bit too fast, but they can make a nice mess of
the capital ships that destroy them.

> I think the big problem with this kind of boat is not their inefficiency,
> but their crews.

This is less of a problem if you consider that they are basically escorts.
Suicide runs against capital ships aren't _really_ what they spend most of
their time doing.

In any case the design is a bit of a first draft. I would tweak it a bit
before I used it in a real Traveller game. If you remember that these things
are frigates, not kamikazes, they are survivable enough.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 20:52:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Aug  2 19:52:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonabo Class Missile Frigate
References: <20020802202311.16203.94229.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00f501c23a99$377c5e60$c15d8690@computer>

> From: Flykiller@aol.com
> No armor?  No low berths?  No medical facilities?  No lifeboat?  No cargo
> supplies?  Well, at least it seems to have extra crewmen -- if you can get
> anyone to sign up.  If I were the referee I'd give this boat an endurance
> of 1 - 2 months max.

It's easy enough to pump up the endurance. Making the ship a bit bigger
should do the trick, although it gets more expensive.

>  >In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships.
> Yes, in sufficient numbers, and if the capital ships are poorly designed
> and employed.  But credit for credit you'll never get the numbers
> sufficient to do so.  Meanwhile with no armor these ships will be dropping
> like flies.

It's a Jump 5 design. That's a huge chunk of displacement gone, and it means
that credit for credit they can't fight capital ships. On the other hand,
they are reasonably hard to hit, and they are relatively cheap, so you can
buy lots and lots of them.

In a strategic game they could be quite useful - they are highly mobile, and
can be all over their opponent's space. And if a whole bunch of them run
into a small group of capital ships, then, yes, they can kill them!

Their survivability is less of a problem if you consider that they wouldn't
spend most of their time attacking capital ships.

Incidentally, it goes without saying that these things kill TL E- ships
quite nicely.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com







From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 20:53:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Aug  2 19:53:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <00f301c23a99$354ad860$c15d8690@computer>

> From: Flykiller@aol.com
> I've seen a handful.  Offsetting this, I've seen companies where every
<rant snipped>
> supply depots and personnel offices so men are freed up for more forward
> duties.

I'm impressed. Your talent for alienating people is quite remarkable.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 20:54:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Aug  2 19:54:22 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Baboon Class Missile Frigate
References: <20020802062003.11635.24330.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00f601c23a99$382d5ee0$c15d8690@computer>

> From: Steven Hudson
> >In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships.
>
>   <QUIBBLE> Not really? By TL E or F dampers make these ships just
> too inefficient, IIRC?

Dampers certainly don't help! They knock out about 5 out of every 6 shot
that hits (and penetrates active defences).

A trillion credits worth of these things will only mission kill one or two
capital ships per turn, and will suffer considerable losses in return.

They probably don't work out as a match for capital ships, but they are
close enough to be useful, I suspect.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <200208021928.LXQ00226@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020802195559.46a76b08@pop.mindspring.com>

At 03:28 PM 8/2/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>"Douglas E. Berry" says
>>Doesn't stop the flow of volunteers.
>
>Me! Me! Pick me!

1. Are you nuts?

2. Really nuts?

3. Can you lie perfectly still while an enemy soldier urinates on you?

4. As in #4, but it is a National Guardsman during a training mission.

5. Do you stand and remove your hat when you hear GnySgt Carlos Hathcock
mentioned?

6. Do you believe in your heart of hearts that there is no such thing as
friendly artillery?

7. When walking in open areas, do you automatically check sight lines and
exfil routes?

8. Do you refer to your wife as your spotter?

9. Do you/Did you make every target at 300 meters but miss the 50 meter ones?

10. We mean it, are you *really* nuts?

If you answered yes to all these questions, you might have what it takes.
Just send Cr 20 and 10 7.62mm shell casings to:

Sniping for Dummies
c/o ACQ Weapons
Box 26, Gridlore Complex
Lunion Up #3
Lunion/Lunion/Spinward Marches
-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Animals who are not penguins can only wish they were.
-Chicago reader, 10/15/82

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:03:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:03:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <112.1523c9f7.2a7c50e1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020802200157.46a789a6@pop.mindspring.com>

At 05:17 PM 8/2/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>Whatever benefits they bring I think are outweighed by the negatives.  I'd 
>dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their 
>traditional roles of nurse and clerk.

I knew many excellent female soldiers, who pulled their weight and then
some.  I also saw many male soldiers who whined and always seemed to be on
profile.

The 50s ended, my dear sir.  As long as they can do the job.  Oh, and an
NCO having sex with a solider in the same chain of command is a violation
of the UCMJ.  They deserved to get busted.
-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"I am the penguin bold! We sailed the sea, to tringalee,
in search of spanish gold" - The Magic Pudding - Norman Lindsay

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:04:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:04:34 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #819 - 24 msgs
References: <3.0.6.32.20020726120258.00a167e0@minn.net>
Message-ID: <3D4B47FA.2000108@gmx.net>

Leslie Bates wrote:

>At 09:30 AM 7/26/2002 -0400, "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Space Viking is definitely a "Traveller-like" book, and the Sword Worlds
>>feature prominently. My only complaint with it? It could actually have made
>>a much longer and more detailed novel.
>>    
>>
>
>Space Viking was originally written for serial publication in ANALOG. Even
>if Piper hadn't shot himself, the market conditions for Science Fiction
>novels would not have justified the rewrite. 
>
>And in my view, Space Viking could have been made into a bloody great movie.
>
>  
>
Still can ... anyone got contacts?

>Les
>
>==================================================================
>Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
>P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
>------------------------------------------------------------------
>The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
>				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
>==================================================================
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
>
>  
>


-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Lord Ronin from Q-Link)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: UFO
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020731085909.45e7b234@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208031234400.22432-100000@vcsweb.com>

Hoi Douglas:

On Wed, 31 Jul 2002, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> I was trying to grow up, then I got cancer, and decided that life was too
> short to be serious about it.
>
> Many cancer patients have a "New Life Birthday," dating from their
> diagnosis date (July 27th for me.)  So I just turned 7.  A good age, in my
> opinion. :)

 I completly understand what you are saying. FWIW I turned 20 in June the
same way. Got the word when I was 30. I responded to treatments and it
disappeared. I refuse to grow up. Besides it would blow my PTSD benefits
<LOL>

BCNU

-- 
 *****        Lord Ronin from Q-Link
******  ****  Sensei David O.E. Mohr
**      ***   Chancellor & Editor for
**            Amiga & Commodore Users Group #447
**      ***   SysOp: The Village BBS {Centipede}
******  ****  503-325-2905 300-28.8K C/G-Ascii-Ansi
 *****        Files, Games, E-Mail, PBEM, Msg Bases


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: max hull size
References: <200208030049.LYB01145@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c23a9b$8969cf30$7400a8c0@matt>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> Steven Hudson asks
>>  BTW, do the Reprints include both editions of HG?
>
> Nope. The reprints have HG2 (which was, in its time, issued
> very briefly).

Briefly?

When did MT come out? '86 wasn't it? Thats 6 years. HG1 was only out for a
year or so. HG1 was published in '79 and HG2 in '80.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: JTAS
Message-ID: <fb.2a270e0d.2a7ca408@aol.com>

>[**] For those who would like to participate, just go to the 
>Starship/Vehicle Design discussion board on JTAS.  Not a subscriber?  
>Why not?  It's only $15 US per two years for biweekly issues and access 
>to archives, discussion boards and Brubek's chat room.  [And if you 
>mention that aurictech referred you, I get a free month added to _my_ 
>subscription! ;-)]
>
>http://jtas.sjgames.com/subscribe/

You also get the thrill of reading my editorials, wherein I discuss items of 
vast import, like where to get the Emperor's favorite wine, and how tomatoes 
and Thomas Jefferson are relevant to Traveller.

Not to mention the assorted design competetions, scintilating discussions, 
and other kewl stuff. JTAS will restore hair (unless you don't want it 
restored), help you lose weight (or gain it), put steam in your stride (which 
isn't as painful as it sounds), and will (like Tree-Frog Beer) make you look 
great and have lots of girlfriends (and/or boyfriends, if you prefer). 

OK, maybe not ALL that stuff, but it IS worth $15 for 2 years. 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Superstition (and Movies)
Message-ID: <d.2aca729a.2a7ca6f7@aol.com>

>At one point during WWII the survival rates of US aviator pilits was not 
>*much* better than kamakazi's. The crucial element is that they believed 
>that their survival was ultimately influenced by their actions and 
>abilities and their omnipresent good luck.

The movie MEMPHIS BELLE (the 1990s remake, not the earlier documentary) 
illustrates this about as accurately as Hollywood ever gets history. It's a 
pretty good representation of the history involved, including the extreme 
youth of the aircrew.

"Danny! Jack threw my St Christopher overboard!"
"Here, take my lucky rubber band . . . it works, honest."

Several years ago, I was toying with the notion of writing a book of war 
movie reviews discussing the relative level of accuracy of each (although I 
think it has already been done). GETTYSBURG is one of my faves in this 
regard. 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Blowing holes in Japan (was " Re Patton")
Message-ID: <F215m4i0FN8Qnr2Hs3j00000007@hotmail.com>

From: "Fred Ramen" <von_rammen@msn.com>

     "Oh, I agree that the Stalin didn't want to expand the conflict any 
more than Truman did. My point was merely that it would have been extremely 
unlikely for the Soviets to allow a divided Japan (as posited in Mr. 
Whipsnade's original post) to be used as a staging area for American 
intervention in Korea (or Vietnam, for that matter)."


My dear Mr. Ramen,

     I completely agree with your analysis, an invaded, occupied, and 
divided Japan could have never been used to support or supply a war in 
Korea.  OTOH, if the Allies had found it necessary to invade Japan, there 
wouldn't have been a Korean war in the first place.
     Soviet Far Eastern forces, which were in the process of clearing 
Manchuria of Japanese troops during August of '45, would have simply 
continued the process down the Korean penninsular.  There would have been no 
division of control between US and USSR at the 38th parallel, as happened in 
history, the USSR would control the entire penninsular and Kim Il Sung would 
have been installed as the acting puppet premier of a communist and united 
Korean nation.
     After disposing of the Korean conflict, the rest of the Cold War in the 
Pacific gets murky.  The USSR would have warm water ports in Korea, 
Hokkaido, and northern Honshu, none of which have the "choke points" that 
assisted us in the Atlantic.  The Pacific would not have been the placid 
American lake it was in our history.
     Oddly enough, having Soviet troops in a Tokyo sector surrounded by an 
American occupation zone may have given the Kremlin pause.  Would there have 
been a Berlin blockade if a corresponding Tokyo blockade was threatened?
     Also, an invasion of Japan may have created a far more nervous post-war 
US.  Having 100s of thousands of troops tied down in our parts of the Home 
Islands fighting against a guerilla campaign would have had some effect on 
the home front.
     Nationalist Chinese troops were slated to occupy portions of the Home 
Islands if an invasion came off.  How would Mao's victory in '49 have 
effected those forces?  Would Mao's triumph even have occurred?  The 
Nationalists may have been forced by a more nervous West to reform, instead 
of being virtually ignored after the war ended.  China could be balkanized 
in the invasion timeline.
     Vietnam is another problem.  Would the US have let the French flounder 
around as they did if we were as worried about the Pacfic as we were about 
Europe?  The US dealt with Tito, he may have been a commie but he wasn't the 
Kremlin's boy.  One wonders if a similar relationship would have been made 
with Ho Chi Minh.  A more likely scenario would have been an early and 
forceful entry in to the Vietnam conflict by the US in the 50's.
     The result may have been an Indochina similar to our Central America, 
rat bastards in charge of corrupt, laughing-stock nations supported by the 
West solely because they aren't communists.
     The effects of all this on the Phillipines is unclear too.  Would the 
US take a more active interest, for good or ill, in Manila if the Pacific 
was more threatening?  What would have been the effect on all the European 
colonies in South East Asia?  Would an Indonesia or a Malaysia happened?
     Gee, ain't alternate history fun?

     "Of course, I may be overstating the importance of Japan to US Pacific 
security, and am quite open to being corrected in this regard."

     I don't think it could be overstated.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:35:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat HULL THICKNESS LIMITATION
Message-ID: <190.ad335f8.2a7ca953@aol.com>

 >HULL
 >185.000 tons standard, 2,590.000 cubic meters, Planetoid Configuration

In a Planetoid Configuration of this size the maximum thickness of the outer 
hull is 0.6 meters and likely much less.  If this ship were 185,000 tons, the 
maximum outer thickness of the outer hull would be 6.0 meters.  Yet in both 
cases they are considered to be naturally armor 3.  I think there should be a 
lower limit on allowable tonnages for Planetoid and Buffered Planetoid ships.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat
Message-ID: <c5.26be7ee0.2a7caa89@aol.com>

 >In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships which have an armor
 >factor of 13 or less.

With a fusion gun?  I'm sorry, you must be using rules I'm not familiar with. 
 I was thinking of High Guard.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020802200157.46a789a6@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <3.0.5.16.20020802200157.46a789a6@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m3k7n8eh5f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes:
>
> Oh, and an NCO having sex with a solider in the same chain of
> command is a violation of the UCMJ.  They deserved to get busted.

That's a nice enough theory, but if one throws a bunch of 18-20
yr. old boys and girls together they're going to get randy.  That's
the Way It Is, regardless of what the rules are.  At least if one
believes the modern prattle that one's sexual drive is irresistible,
then one cannot hold anyone to account for giving in to said drive.
And if one _doesn't_ hold to said prattle, then there's a whole load
of other things one must abandon.

I'd find the whole business amusing, were it not so deadly serious.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
According to the National Crime Survey administered by the Bureau of
the Census and the National Institute of Justice, it was found that
only 12 percent of those who use a gun to resist assault are injured,
as are 17 percent of those who use a gun to resist robbery.  These
percentages are 27 and 25 percent, respectively, if they passively
comply with the felon's demands.  Three times as many were injured if
they used other means of resistance.
          --G. Kleck, Policy Lessons from Recent Gun Control Research

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: JTAS
In-Reply-To: <fb.2a270e0d.2a7ca408@aol.com>
References: <fb.2a270e0d.2a7ca408@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3fzxweh3i.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

GDWGAMES@aol.com writes:
> 
> OK, maybe not ALL that stuff, but it IS worth $15 for 2 years. 

Seconded.  JTAS is _very_ cool.  I like it lots.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
With the Smart Ship's reputation so far, they will have to build a bloody
big trebuchet for the damn thing to be useful as a weapon.
                                         --Derry Hamilton

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <m3k7n8eh5f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <3.0.5.16.20020802200157.46a789a6@pop.mindspring.com> <m3k7n8eh5f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020803135320.A15209@freeman.little-possums.net>

Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> At least if one believes the modern prattle that one's sexual drive
> is irresistible,

I've never heard that one before.  Where is it prattled, and who
prattles it?


> And if one _doesn't_ hold to said prattle, then there's a whole load
> of other things one must abandon.

Like what?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 21:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 20:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
Message-ID: <18b.bc68e45.2a7cae08@aol.com>

 >> >Nor will I criticize the voters of that city for being stupid enough to
 >> >re-elect as mayor a convicted drug dealer, and then expect the tone of 
the
 >> >city to be anything other than what it is.
 >
 >>Oh, but they're not stupid.  They knew what the tone of the city would be. 
 
 >>That's why they voted for him.
 >
 >I refuse to believe that they _want_ a city that is so badly mismanaged
 >that Congress was ready to take away what autonomy they had.

What was it Ayn Rand said -- "To refuse to consider something is to fear that 
the worst is true"?  Something like that.  If the people of D.C. didn't want 
what they have, they'd do something about it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 22:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 21:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
Message-ID: <2d.211708b3.2a7cb2c1@aol.com>

 >All I am doing is letting Fighters act like Turrets. If several turrets can
 >concentrate their fire to increase their effectiveness, why can't several
 >fighters?

You could extend this same concept to spinal mount vessels.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 22:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug  2 21:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <20020803135320.A15209@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <B970A810.6788B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/2/02 8:53 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:

> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
>> At least if one believes the modern prattle that one's sexual drive
>> is irresistible,
> 
> I've never heard that one before.  Where is it prattled, and who
> prattles it?
> 

Here on the TML, for one place.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 22:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 21:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>

 >> How
 >> serious is the trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took place because
 >> the small island of England was not self-sufficient in either agricultural
 >> or industrial matters, but I don't think this situation will arise on many
 >> _planets_.  If trade is truly a major issue and lifeline then a massed 
herd
 >> of raiders will be crippling regardless of any other fleet elements
 >> employed.  But I think most planets with populations sufficient to have
 >> significant trade connections will have huge internal capacites to produce
 >> what they need anyway, and huge reserves of whatever they have to import
 >> (consider our Strategic Oil Reserve).  
 >
 >If planets are so self sufficient, then why does TNE describe planets 
failing 
 >because they were cut off from interstellar trade?

Don't know.  Doesn't make much sense to me.  I can see it happening here and 
there of course, but not en masse.  TNE may state it, but that's not 
necessarily a reason to just swallow it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 22:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri Aug  2 21:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Meduim Navies
References: <20020803025421.23615.36452.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D4B5AFB.8934A0CD@ameritech.net>

> Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 19:10:38 -0500
> From: Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com

> This may have gotten lost in my last post and the minor flame spat
> going on, so I'll throw it out again and see if anyone bites.
> 
> What would the Imperuim see as the maximum allowable size, maximum
> allowable quantitative/qualitative weaponry, for a mercenary ship?
> 
> Presumabley they would frown on paws and meson guns, but would they
> allow big bay weapons?

At first blush I think the authorities will start to watch closely if
you have armed ships bigger than 5-10,000 tons. As for weaponry if I
were in charge I'd definitely try to put the kibosh on privately held
bay weapons since they can pose a threat to IN ships of the line as well
as having the potential to escalate wars from the relatively clean form
that the Imperium tollerates to the kind of battle that can cause long
term damage to facilities, populations, and trade.

YMMV

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 22:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 21:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes
Message-ID: <4957.64.8.3.28.1028349006.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

Hello Folks,
  Just a question of sorts...

In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head tax" or does it charge
an income tax on its citizens for its Imperial Budget requirements?  In
short, if the Imperial government taxes 10% of a Gross Planetary Product,
then it would in essence be an income tax.  If it charges a flat 500 CR
per person on a planet, then it is a head tax.  Which is it?

And I find it an interesting thought here.  If the Imperium charges say,
3% of a planet's gross planetary product for its military taxes - this tax
is on top of the local ruler's/government's tax.  How much in the way of
taxes can a population take before its economy begins to stagnate?




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 22:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 21:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEKPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Thomas Barnes" <twb3@charter.net>
>
>> if the tables were turned. I have no doubt the Axis powers, had they won,
>> would have gone on a rampage of looting, rape, genocide, and destruction
>> that would boggle the mind, and luckily remains in the realm of
science-fiction.
>
>In fact, the Axis powers DID go on a rampage of looting, rape, genocide
>and destruction.  That is why they had to be stopped.

But it was such a limited rampage -- only most of Europe, western Russia,
the northern edge of Africa, China, Burma, Thailand, Indochina, the
Philippines, New Guinea, Indonesia, Melanesia, and Micronesia really
suffered.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 22:50:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 21:50:46 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Military Psychology
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEKPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com>
>Subject: [TML] re: Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
traveller)
>
>With "freezer pop" soldiers, you might have people who wake
>up, fight to the death for a week, then go back to sleep
>until the next fight to the death crops up. No down time,
>no ability to process what happened before it all starts
>again.  Imagine the post-war condition of the average US

For this reason, I doubt that the Imperial and Solomani militaries rely
heavily on low berth for troop transportation.  The Zhodani may have an edge
with better capabilities in psychology.

>Forever War was a helluva book, btw.

Agreed!

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIELACEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng)
>
>Even today, I am still amazed just how lucky the Germans were.  Even with
>all their planning, they still could not have predicted the good fortune
>they actually got.

Possible explanations for this run of luck:

1) That was when the devil was still living up to his side of the deal for
Hitler's soul.

2) That was when the Germans had the Ark of the Covenant; the Indiana Jones
movie's action takes place too early.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:09:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:09:42 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKELACEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
>Most Traveller parties need a full time lawyer - but how many
>have you seen with one?

I ran a campaign some years ago where the PCs got arrested and their ship
impounded by the local authorities when they entered orbit around Moughas.
The Fifth Frontier War had started, and the Vargr Gireel Fleet had captured
Moughas, but was using the local government structure while it plundered
whatever it could.  The local legal system called for the accused to be
represented by counsel, and required a choice of counsel, so three Vargr
lawyers appeared on a split screen to pitch their services.

The PCs eventually picked the most aggressive one, who got out of his seat
and went over to each of the other two and punched them out.  They did ok
with his services, but his legal fees cost them much of the money they'd
acquired to date.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:10:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:10:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMELACEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>
>But this is the TML, and one supposes that in the 57th century, the measure
>of a sophont's fitness for a particular duty is tied to their ability to
>perform it.  One may assume that the Imperium establishes baseline
>requirements for, say an MOS, and holds to those standards regardless of
>race or gender.  This may result in a higher proportion of males in a
>particular MOS, perhaps females in another.

That's how it works in my Traveller universe.  Of course, we add "species"
to "regardless of race [i.e., subspecies] or gender."

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:11:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:11:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOELACEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)

>But I'm certainly no expert on gender differences.

To paraphrase my late father, no man is.

--Glenn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:11:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:11:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <a8.f784519.2a7cbf66@aol.com>

 >> A good point worthy of discussion.  I have commerce raiders, but I
 envision
 >> them as travelling in a single mass, outrunning and dodging attempts by
 >> serious fleet elements to pursue them (unless, of course, the raiders
 blunder
 >> into them).  Small patrols and escorts are never going to be able to deal
 >> with such a herd, while major patrols and escorts deployed everywhere will
 >> seriously impact the size of the remaining core fleet.
 >
 >If you spread out a mix of powerful and less powerful commerce raiders,
 >you'll pull more fleet assets away. That's half the point.

I'll be concentrating on the core fleet of the enemy.  If I defeat them, then 
I'll round up the commerce raiders at leisure.  That's my whole point.

 >>How serious is the
 >> trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took place because the small
island
 >> of England was not self-sufficient in either agricultural or industrial
 >> matters, but I don't think this situation will arise on many _planets_.
 >
 >It'll impact revenue, which hurts over time. More importantly, it hurts
 >civilian morale and causes demands for proteciton. And you can damage the
 >logistics train - if the enemy is missile-heavy, he has to get them to the
 >battle area...

Good points all.  Sure you'll have revenue losses -- can you imagine what the 
Soviet Union's revenue losses were like? -- but if in the meantime the main 
enemy fleet is engaged and defeated then that won't matter.  "The only thing 
more expensive than a war is losing."  As for morale and demands for 
protection, the civilians will know their best chance for protection is a 
fleet victory.  One can point to any number of instances where stubborn 
insistence on city protection contrary to military necessity has caused the 
defeat of an army.  Further, the loudest calls for protection will be from 
those worlds capable of building their own local defense forces.  As for the 
missiles, yes, that's a major problem if you are missile-heavy, and I think 
the best way to solve it is to have large stocks on hand in protected bases 
before the war and not try to manufacture what you need during a war.

 >>If
 >> trade is truly a major issue and lifeline then a massed herd of raiders
will
 >> be crippling regardless of any other fleet elements employed.
 >
 >Until it inevitably gets squashed. Dispersed raiding works better, other
 >than for targeted strikes, say on a critical system to massacre the
 >concentration of merhcant shipping there.

It will only get squashed if it gets caught by a superior force.  If your 
opponent disperses, then dispersing yourself simply plays his game at his 
level, but staying concentrated leaves all of his dispersed elements unable 
to oppose you.  If your opponent concentrates and tries to force a major 
engagement then this will either require a huge containment fleet all out of 
proportion to the raider task force (in which case the main fleet will be 
left weakened) or a wild stroke of luck as the raiders blunder into this 
pursuing fleet.

 >Assuming he's rich enough to afford a fleet like that. Guerre de Course has
 >always been the weaker nation's option.

If you are richer than your opponent then there's little he can do.  If you 
are equal, then if you're rich enough to build a significant escort/patrol 
fleet and scatter it everywhere then he's rich enough to build an equal-value 
capital fleet and slowly march it through your scattered escorts.

 >> I don't think you can get "greater concentration of force" with "less
ships".
 >
 >I have 6 ships, you have 12. I draw 8 of your ships away with a feint, and
 >gain local superiority. You sent them all? Great. I smash your base. You
 >sent none? Well, if my recon is up to it I'll know. Next time I just smash
 >something elsewhere , maybe with pairs of my ships, while you sit tight and
 >wait for the big clash at JUtland.

And if I outfeint you?  I think you're assuming a defensive and dumb enemy, 
with you holding all the offense and recon-intelligence cards.  If you have 
six and I have twelve I'll just guard the base with six and chase you with 
the other six.

I'm about done here.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <20020802231503.19852.60096.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17arId-0004ch-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>

"Thomas Barnes" <twb3@charter.net> wrote:
 
> > 
> > You really think that a computer can be powerful enough to simulate
> > all that and yet not have safeguards to prevent death?  I would
> > imagine that it'd be just like a modern simulator: screw up and you
> > get the `shatter screen.'
> > 
> > Although it could also be used to give you a nasty shock or something
> > every time you screw up...
> > 
> 
> Not necessarily.  I was working on an F-15 trainer a few years ago and
> stepped out of the seat to reach a terminal while leaving the aircraft
> "in flight".  It took a bit longer that I thought it would, and the
> uncontrolled simulated jet ended up impacting the "earth" at Mach
> 1.something.  
> 
> The control loader on the stick modeled stick forces due to the
> accelerations of the aircraft, so in response to the massive g-loading
> of the crash, drove the stick violently aft.  It is my good fortune that
> I was not in the way of the stick when it drove aft, since it hit the
> stops hard enough to snap a stainless steel cable in the control loader.

Ouch!

I'm guessing that by TL12+ all well-made simulators will be 
indistinguishable form the real thing, except that the simulators 
don't have the fast or lingering death if you screw up.  Combine 
holography and artificial gravity and really fancy computers and 
you've got a very powerful combination that might not even be that 
expensive. I'm guessing that driver ed for grav vehicles will involve 
getting thrown into a bunch of simulations of dangerous situations 
and then getting graded on how you do.  

Fighter sims would probably involve high-g loads (in fighters where 
the accelerations are greater than the degree of compensation), 
fast turns, zig-zag dodging at high-g and all manner of stuff that 
would leave the newbies sick as a dog immediately afterwards, and 
hurting the next day.

The fun part will come of someone figures out a moderately easy 
way to get someone into a simulator while making them think they 
are getting into the real thing.  You won't be able to pull that trick 
more than once on someone unless the sims are *really* good 
(and they might be), but it would be an *excellent* test of exactly 
how well a pilot has learned his or her lessons.  



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:19:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:19:49 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
In-Reply-To: <20020802231503.19852.60096.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17arIf-0004ch-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>

ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>) wrote:

> "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> writes:
> > 
> > Personally, I find it hard to shed many tears for Hiroshima,
> > Nagasaki, or Dresden.
> 
> I dunno--the firebombing of Dresden is IMHO one of the worst war
> crimes committed by the US.  Esp. the bit about destroying emergency
> vehicles...
> 
> That no-one was ever strung up for it is a travesty.  We're supposed
> to be better than that.

Agreed.  Hiroshima and Nagasaki can at least be argued as being 
better than the alternatives (although I've heard several different 
PoVs about how exactly necessary bombing Nagasaki was).  
However, Dresden is an amazingly clear cut case.  It was an act of 
terror and vengeance easily as bad as anything the other side did 
in it's bombing of civilian targets.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com  

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:20:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Volker)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:20:36 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Names
In-Reply-To: <14d.1114a660.2a6ad884@aol.com>
References: <14d.1114a660.2a6ad884@aol.com>
Message-ID: <31100237350.20020803141400@greimann.de>

> to Texas from Illinois, in company with my father and three notarized
> documents from her two older sisters and her father attesting to her birth at 
> the date and time in question. A few hours at the county courthouse and she 
> was issued a backdated document.


Scribble, scribble:

<campaign notes>
"Need  any  documents  you  "lost"?  Go  to Desdemona, they'll get you
one. ...For a price!"
</Campaign Notes>


-- 
*** Volker Greimann * volker@greimann.de ***
******  Long live Emperor Strephon!  *******


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:25:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:25:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Taxes
Message-ID: <3D4B6830.F9B207D4@mail.cswnet.com>

>In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head tax" or does it >charge an income tax on its citizens for its Imperial Budget >requirements?  In short, if the Imperial government taxes 10% of a >Gross Planetary Product, then it would in essence be an income tax.  >If it charges a flat 500 CR per person on a planet, then it is a head >tax.  Which is it?

Depends on the system your useing.
TCS says its a head count
Striker implies, by your definition, something like an income tax
Ian Ferguson's small navies and my meduim navies uses a hybrid tax

>If the Imperium charges say, 3% of a planet's gross planetary product
>for its military taxes - this tax is on top of the local
>ruler's/government's tax.

But the Imperium doesn't do that; Canon says it charges 30% of the
military budget, not the gpp[Strikerv1.0, book2, page38, section IV,
rule 73, part B, last paragraph]. How the local ruler comes up with the
money for the budget is his/her/its business, but no matter how much
money comes in the Imperuim is getting 30%. Otherwise, the local ruler
gets met by the Happy Baseball Bat [a companion of the Happy Fun Ball;
better not to ask]. Also, if the economy gets dragged down by said local
rulers taxation, I foresee problems between he/she/it and the Imperuim.
Isn't it part of the rules of war that the Imperuim doesn't like wars
that damage the economy of the Imperuim. The 3I MIGHT view overtaxation
as a problem if it led to economic instability and slow down in economic
growth. Then again it might not, considering the large number of planets
with high gov codes and presumably high taxes in one form or another. I
think it would depend on the situation and the ability of the local
ruler...see T4s Pocket Empires for that.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <20020803025421.23615.36452.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17arTK-0005yh-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>) wrote:

> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> > 
> > But this is the TML, and one supposes that in the 57th century, the
> > measure of a sophont's fitness for a particular duty is tied to
> > their ability to perform it.  One may assume that the Imperium
> > establishes baseline requirements for, say an MOS, and holds to
> > those standards regardless of race or gender.  This may result in a
> > higher proportion of males in a particular MOS, perhaps females in
> > another.
> 
> Yep.  I've heard, for example, a theory that women might actually make
> better fighter pilots, due to endurance or soemthing like that.

More than a theory actually.  The number of women being trained 
as fighter pilots continues to climb, and there are many predictions 
that the number of female fighter pilots will surpass the number of 
male fighter pilots in not all that many years.  Women in general 
are shorter, lighter, and have better resistance to g forces (ie they 
don't black out as quickly) all of which are very useful qualities in 
modern fighter aircraft. 

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <E17arId-0004ch-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMEAMIKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of
sneadj@mindspring.com
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 10:17 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller


"Thomas Barnes" <twb3@charter.net> wrote:
 
> > 
> > You really think that a computer can be powerful enough to simulate
> > all that and yet not have safeguards to prevent death?  I would
> > imagine that it'd be just like a modern simulator: screw up and you
> > get the `shatter screen.'
> > 
> > Although it could also be used to give you a nasty shock or something
> > every time you screw up...
> > 
> 
> Not necessarily.  I was working on an F-15 trainer a few years ago and
> stepped out of the seat to reach a terminal while leaving the aircraft
> "in flight".  It took a bit longer that I thought it would, and the
> uncontrolled simulated jet ended up impacting the "earth" at Mach
> 1.something.  
> 
> The control loader on the stick modeled stick forces due to the
> accelerations of the aircraft, so in response to the massive g-loading
> of the crash, drove the stick violently aft.  It is my good fortune that
> I was not in the way of the stick when it drove aft, since it hit the
> stops hard enough to snap a stainless steel cable in the control loader.

Ouch!

I'm guessing that by TL12+ all well-made simulators will be 
indistinguishable form the real thing, except that the simulators 
don't have the fast or lingering death if you screw up.  Combine 
holography and artificial gravity and really fancy computers and 
you've got a very powerful combination that might not even be that 
expensive. I'm guessing that driver ed for grav vehicles will involve 
getting thrown into a bunch of simulations of dangerous situations 
and then getting graded on how you do.  

Fighter sims would probably involve high-g loads (in fighters where 
the accelerations are greater than the degree of compensation), 
fast turns, zig-zag dodging at high-g and all manner of stuff that 
would leave the newbies sick as a dog immediately afterwards, and 
hurting the next day.

The fun part will come of someone figures out a moderately easy 
way to get someone into a simulator while making them think they 
are getting into the real thing.  You won't be able to pull that trick 
more than once on someone unless the sims are *really* good 
(and they might be), but it would be an *excellent* test of exactly 
how well a pilot has learned his or her lessons.  


_______________________________________________

Throw in a meson communicator and you've got telepresense

jml
so that's what a Ten gee Immelman is like

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <1a1.64c8bb6.2a7cc59a@aol.com>

 >Let's turn this on its head. Can you explain how this model of yours
 >works...? How do you plan to fight a war with it?

Recall, I'm working with CT HG (the original -- I understand there is an HG2 
out?).

I put a fleet together for the Spinward Marches.  Being what it is, it is 
primarily intended to be defensive.  Most of it is stationed at Jewell, 
Efate, and Regina, with task forces at Vilis, Lunion, and Glisten.  If the 
Zhodies send their main fleet body in a straight-on attack then we'll decide 
the issue then and there.  If they send the main body on an end run by Vilis 
heading for my high-population worlds then I'll just have to try to catch 
them while sending in two or three task forces to try and blockade Cronor, 
cutting off their supplies.  If that attack succeeds then they will be forced 
to retreat -- if they ever find out.  Meanwhile I'll be attempting to engage 
their main body with my main body.  If we meet then again we'll decide the 
issue.  If they scatter to spread havoc then I'll break up into units that 
hopefully will always outnumber their groups and just continue to pursue 
them, scooping them up as I find them while also leaving some task forces on 
the border hoping to catch their isolated elements as they try to leave.  
Anyway, that's what I envision.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
In-Reply-To: <E17arIf-0004ch-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>
References: <20020802231503.19852.60096.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <E17arIf-0004ch-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <2007.64.8.3.28.1028353249.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

Even Acts of Terror may be considered as life saving...

> However, Dresden is an amazingly clear cut case.  It was an act of
> terror and vengeance easily as bad as anything the other side did  in
> it's bombing of civilian targets.

I do *NOT* condone the targetting of civilian targets.  However - it is a
fact that the targetting of civilian targets is a viable military
strategy.  MAD - Mutually Assured Destruction, is the ultimate in
terrorism in the sense that it states plainly to your enemy "Kill my
non-combatants, and I will kill yours".
  Likewise, if Dresden told Germany in no uncertain terms, that continued
  terrorist activity on its part would be met in kind by such activity on
  the Allied side - then so be it.  I will *NOT* Judge the military
  commanders of that time for the decisions made.  Any more than I would
  condemn Isreal or India for use of military force against civilian
  targets - *IF* their own civilian populations are being targetted by
  enemies of their state.  If the enemy starts off bringing a rifle to
  battle, it would be a fool who refuses to sink to his enemy's level of
  barbarity, if he continues to bring a club to the fight.  Likewise -
  barbarism is sometimes the only thing that barbaric rulers and/or
  leaders will understand.  Enough said on that topic by myself ;)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  2 23:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 22:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
Message-ID: <186.bc7cec0.2a7cc747@aol.com>

 >> > Why do you want fighters to be more effective?
 >>
 >> So that they can have an outside possibility of damaging Capital ships at
 >> high TL
 >
 >And again, why do you want this? Barring me swallowing some and suffering
 >some strange kind of poisoning, no amount of flies can beat me in a straight
 >fight. My feeling is that fightrers are good for screening and keeping
 >merchies in line. Big ships are for killing big ships.

Yeah.  But Traveller is an RPG, not just a pseudo-scientific wargame.  It's 
nice to be able to have a Luke Skywalker in an X-wing.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 00:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 23:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <16.231f5efa.2a7ccd90@aol.com>

 >> Will they come apart if they take 98% casualties between breakfast and 
lunch? 
 >>  That is on a level with the original post that started this discussion.
 >
 >No it wasn't, because the original post didn't specify a proportion, 
 >merely an absolute quantity.

Let's look at what the proportion would be.  70,000 ton capital ship vs 
70,000 ton carrier.  Both J4, tech 15, as per CT HG1.  The carrier will be 
carrying fighters at about 35% of its mass.  The fighters to be at all 
effective will have to be 90 tons each.  (70,000 * .35) / 90 is 272 fighters 
(if anyone says the carrier and fighters will be cheaper and therefore more 
numerous just remember the 272 model 9 computers at 140MCr a pop).  The 
original quote from the original post was "a few hundred fighters".  I'd 
think that "a few hundred" would mean between 200 and 300.  Unless there is 
some extra-ordinary reason why such losses are necessary, I don't think 
anyone is going to want to be a fighter pilot on a carrier that sends out a 
few hundred fighters and only recovers a mere handful as a matter of course 
-- if it recovers any at all, since the margin of victory will be so narrow.  
In any case, if this involves, say, 100 ships per side, then in the end there 
will be about 28 lightly-damaged cruisers left (lightly-damaged as per the 
house rule originally discussed), while the fighters will just about all be 
eliminated.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 00:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 23:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <81.1f59b1a7.2a7cd257@aol.com>

 >> How serious is the trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took
 >> place because the small island of England was not self-sufficient in
 >> either agricultural or industrial matters, but I don't think this
 >> situation will arise on many _planets_.
 >
 >Not for the planets of any meaningful military capacity, anyway.  99%
 >of the production of the Imperium comes from 10% of the planets.  The
 >combined trade of those planets with every other planet (including
 >each other) is about 0.2% of their combined economies.  That means
 >that whatever they import can't be worth much.

You say it better than I do.  Thanks.  Wanting to protect or disrupt trade is 
great, but when you're looking at a map of what is actually there then you 
start thinking, "Now wait a minute ...."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 00:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 23:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <ac.2b37fb6e.2a7cd350@aol.com>

 >Personally, my opinion is that TNE needed an apocalypse and lack of
 >trade was just an excuse.

It certainly makes for an excellent RPG adventuring environment.  Depending 
on your tastes.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 00:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  2 23:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
Message-ID: <151.11d6b5dc.2a7cd85d@aol.com>

 >You see, I spent most of my time in the
 >Liberal Arts when I was in school, and it did me an irrepairable brain
 >injury. Traveller is therapy for me now.

I was going to say maybe ease up on the science and just create an 
adventurable world, but I see what you mean.  That's great, keep it up!

 >does a dense
 >atmosphere hold more energy? Wouldn't it take that much more energy to
 >"move" a dense atmosphere into weather changes?

Yes, and yes.  And too, denser atmospheres will have much more kinetic energy 
when moving.  I strong breeze in a dense atmosphere will probably knock down 
anyone trying to walk in the open.  Wish I knew the math to tell you.

 >Would the world's oceans act as thermal "batteries", and if so, how would 
they  
 >affect the weather?

Yes.  Oceans are tremendous reservoirs of heat and moderators of weather.  
Land climates near oceans are always warmer in winter and cooler in summer 
than land climates far away from oceans.  When I lived in Oceanside if you 
wanted air conditioning all you had to do was open an east window and a west 
window, because all that rising hot air in the inland desert drew a constant 
cool breeze off of the ocean 24 hours a day 365 days a year.  I didn't put on 
a coat or turn on a fan or air conditioner for four years.

On the other hand you don't get big storms inland.  Oceans store lots of 
heat, and it gets transfered in currents, storms, and hurricanes.

Wish I could tell you more.  If I see anything I'll direct you to it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 01:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 00:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <82.1f5501bd.2a7cdb36@aol.com>

 >Has anyone noted the set up with regards to the number of starports that 
 >can produce starships versus those that can only builld system ships?  And 
 >to make matters worse, there aren't that many high tech star ports around

I have.  It does make a big difference, doesn't it?  "If my ships are cheaper 
I'll be able to build more of them!"  No you can't.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 01:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 00:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
Message-ID: <2cce1d2ceb69.2ceb692cce1d@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Hopper <whopper@pobox.com>
Date: Saturday, August 3, 2002 3:44 am
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship 
optimization)

> Matt, Martin,
> I agree with both points presented below.  I think fighters should 
> be more
> effective in a coordinated, massed attack than they are 
> individually.  I also
> agree that 'coordinated' is the key term.
> 
> My solution is to group fighters into a 'squadron' so that their 
> weapons can be
> combined into one battery. But to do so, the squadrom must have a 
> controlling or
> 'master' fighter.  The squadron's combined attack is treated as if 
> it is one
> battery, and uses the rating of the computer in the controlling 
> fighter with an
> additional -1 modifier.
> 
<<snips details of fighter squadron house rule>>
> 
> Role-playing never came up in relation to this, but for role-
> playing purposes I
> would have the master fighter making recommendations to the pilots 
> of the
> squadron, perhaps through a Heads Up Display.  The individual 
> pilots could
> disregard the recommendations if they were willing to accept the 
> consequences.

You could also have the pilot of the "master" fighter make a Fleet 
Tactics roll each turn, with failure resulting in a -1 to the squadron 
fire Factor.

<<snip>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 01:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 00:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <1b9.4379064.2a7cdd3a@aol.com>

 >A large system like this would have to maintain a 
 >considerable number of ships in order to defend these assets

And not only can they, they'll all be powerful SDB's.  It will take vast 
resources to assault such a world.  And when the main jump fleet hears where 
you are, they'll come running.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 01:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 00:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <2d682c2d2cdb.2d2cdb2d682c@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: sneadj@mindspring.com
Date: Saturday, August 3, 2002 8:16 am
Subject: RE: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller

<<snip>>
> 
> The fun part will come of someone figures out a moderately easy 
> way to get someone into a simulator while making them think they 
> are getting into the real thing.  You won't be able to pull that 
> trick 
> more than once on someone unless the sims are *really* good 
> (and they might be), but it would be an *excellent* test of 
> exactly 
> how well a pilot has learned his or her lessons.

Or, a'la _Ender's Game_, get them in the real thing while they're 
convinced that they're just in a simulator (and thus can't be killed).
  



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 01:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 00:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"
Message-ID: <11c.14d66d9e.2a7ce27f@aol.com>

 >>>> "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!" >>>
 >
 >Under the rules of war, we've been discussing, if an enemy intentionally
 >builds fortifications or other military structures among a civilian
 >populance, then that enemy becomes rssponsible for the safety of those
 >aforementioned civilians. If those civilians are actively and willfully
 >supporting the enemy, then they are no longer considered noncombatants. So,
 >it IS Al Quaida's fault and responsibility if the US intentionally seeks to
 >bomb a legitimate military target that Al Qaida has hidden behind a human
 >shield.

I rest my case.

"It's Milosivic's fault we bombed a convoy of farmers!"
"It's Arafat's fault we bombed that apartment building!"
"It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a convoy of inauguration representatives on 
the open road!"

If I were to act with this level of disregard even in defense of my own 
children, I'd be in jail.  McVeigh was right -- "collateral damage" covers a 
multitude of sins.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 01:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 00:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <2d53e02d6366.2d63662d53e0@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
Date: Thursday, August 1, 2002 2:39 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] sword vs shotgun

> >From: Flykiller@aol.com  
> >Subject: Re: [TML] sword vs shotgun  
> >To: tml@travellercentral.com
> >
> > >the best, and I mean the best, adventures are those that 
> > >are "two party" adventures - one party of players against 
> > >another.  The referee can never buy or write a one-party 
> > >adventure that is as tense, hilarious, or as emotional as 
> > >a "two party".

<<snip>>
> 
> It's an old idea.  And, it's a very good way to deal with 
> those in the playing group who want to be sociopaths.  The 
> referee doesn't have to kill them - the other party can try 
> their best.  In my case, however, it came out even more often 
> than not - being the "good" party doesn't make you 
> bulletproof.

On that note, I shall repost something I said on this list several years 
ago:

"I would have to say that the nastiest "monster" a group of PCs can ever 
face is...another group of PCs. Savagely bloodthirsty, hideously 
well-armed, and possessed of a certain low cunning. (Just like the first 
group of PCs.)"

This and many more fine quotes may be found on Mark Urbin's Web site:

http://www.urbin.net/EWW/sigs/rpg-sigs.html




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 01:58:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 00:58:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <39.2b0d8f9c.2a7ce6d3@aol.com>

 >A config 7, dispersed structure, ship has the
 >highest to hit target of any configuration.
 >A high agility, high computer size A or less
 >meson escort is the hardest to hit of any ship.
 >Other weapons find it hard to hit with as well.
 >Additionally, is features the lowest hull cost.

I'm afraid we've been talking two different systems.  I've been talking CT 
HG1, but everyone seems to be talking about something else.  CT HG1 only 
distinguishes between hull sizes on to-hit adjustments, not hull types.  I'm 
afraid I don't know HG2, or for that matter any of the others, and it seems 
HG1 has been deprecated.

That's what I get for jumping in.

 >Costing
 >DD price range, they threaten any capital ship scoring weapon
 >and computer hits through radiation hits and all but Critical and
 >shattered fuel hits on hits and penetrate and score interior hits.

Yeah, see in HG1 a factor 9 meson cannot penetrate any meson screen of 3 or 
higher, and any capital ship is going to have meson screen 9.

Thanks.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 02:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 01:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <a9.2b679017.2a7ce930@aol.com>

 >>  >The Germans, and
 >>  >particularly the Japanese were horribly dehumanized.  We made our 
enemies
 >>  >into monsters so then it was OK to exterminate them.
 >> 
 >> If there was any dehumanizing of the Germans and Japanese, they did it
 >> themselves through their own brutality. 
 > 
 >Um, all of them, even the children?

Our side can do no wrong.  The other side is utterly evil, in all matters, in 
all ways, at all times, in all circumstances.

"The emergency food we're dropping to the Afghans might make them sick 'cause 
they're not used to it."
"The Taliban is poisoning the food we're dropping!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 02:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 01:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
Message-ID: <2d9a852d8ef1.2d8ef12d9a85@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net>
Date: Thursday, August 1, 2002 3:32 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)

> Rob Davenport <rgd@infinet.com> wrote:
> >	Ed Wood's "Starship Troopers" 
> 
> Kenji Schwartz gave a good rant compairing ST to an Ed Wood movie.
> You can find it on my SciFi sig quote page.

Another Kenji Klassic, also from Mr. Urbin's Web site:

In certain senses, I think the PMPP [*] is the ultimate distillation of 
the Traveller spirit. Technophallocentric belloeroticism. -- Kenji 
Schwarz on the Traveller Mailing List.

Upon reading that, I realized that the phrase can be modified to be 
singable to "Supercalifragilisticexpialidocius" (or however the heck 
that damnable song's title is spelled):

Everybody now!

<sings>

"Supertechnopallocentric belloeroticism...."

</sings>

[*] For those of you just tuning in, this refers to a pelvic-mounted 
plasma gun.
 
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/sigs/rpg-sigs.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 02:13:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 01:13:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in traveller)
Message-ID: <199.acd8aa3.2a7cea81@aol.com>

 >It's an old saw that military service is extended periods of
 >boredom punctuated by short periods of stark terror.  Imagine
 >if an army used sleeper ships to move their troops around...
 >soldiers whose military service consisted of sleeping through
 >the extended periods of boredom, and only being awake for the
 >periods of stark terror.
 >
 >That kind of setup might be cheap when it came to starship
 >life support costs, but I imagine the impact on the soldiers'
 >psyches would be extreme.

Not if they were only asleep during jumps.  "Good morning, we're passing 
through Regina and the captain decided you should all spend some money there 
for a few days."  And soldiers won't be spending years on ships anyway -- 
they'll only be there when in transport.  Kind of hard to practice armored 
maneuvers on the mess deck.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 02:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 01:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] damning (OT)
Message-ID: <18c.bcc9ac6.2a7cf019@aol.com>

 >> I've seen a handful.  Offsetting this, I've seen companies where every
 single
 >> corporal  and several sergeants get busted down for sex with the female
 >> privates.  I've seen active duty females refuse orders to perform physical
 >> tasks (like dumping trash cans) and tell sergeants to their face to "get a
 >> male to do it".  I've seen females who cannot, and I mean cannot, pass
 their
 >> limited physical fitness tests, who can't do  even seven pushups, but who
 >> still remain in units.  I've seen females who cannot climb the ladder from
 >> the shaft alley to the second deck and who have to be helped.  I've seen
 >> females finish their expensive training and then promptly be discharged
 >> because they're pregnant.
 >
 >Yeah, and I've seen human beings who were skilled and competent and
 >determined and motivated and just plain better than me being kept down
 >because they were born female. You can't damn half the human race on a
 >generality.

"Damn"?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 02:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 01:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prejudice (OT)
Message-ID: <c3.26abf399.2a7cf0f5@aol.com>

 >> > Whatever benefits they bring I think are outweighed by the negatives.
 I'd
 >> > dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their
 >> > traditional roles of nurse and clerk.  If the US military is so hard-up
 for
 >> > warm bodies that it really needs females, then I say reinstitute the
 WACS and
 >> > WAVES and whatever else, with their own standards and their own chain of
 >> > command, and put them in charge of stateside facilities like hospitals
 and
 >> > supply depots and personnel offices so men are freed up for more forward
 >> > duties.
 >
 >
 >Such sweeping prejudice. I am impressed.

I don't think recognition of a general trend of experience is prejudice.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 02:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 01:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: max hull size
Message-ID: <44.23c85f34.2a7cf2bd@aol.com>

 >> >Again, I'm assuming CT.  Let's see .... at tech 12, max hull size is 
 >>199,999 
 >> 
 >>   <1 MT (USP X) per HG2, pps. 26 & 28.
 >>
 >>Sorry -- CT HG.  I don't know what HG2 does.
 >
 >  OMG - someone _uses_ HG1?! I only got a copy by accident...
 >neat read, though.

Heck, I thought that _was_ Traveller.  Guess I'm a dinosaur.

 > BTW, do the Reprints include both editions of HG?

Don't know, but I don't think so.  They're just copies of the originals, 
typos and all.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 03:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 02:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Meduim Navies
Message-ID: <d0.2aca14d8.2a7cf556@aol.com>

 >What would the Imperuim see as the maximum allowable size, maximum
 >allowable quantitative/qualitative weaponry, for a mercenary ship?

Book 4 lists an example ticket calling for a reinforced brigade with full 
equipment, so that's probably the max.  I've drawn up a troop ship with J3 
that carried a battalion, and it was 19,000 tons.  So, I'd say either four 
20,000 ton ships or one 80,000 ton one.

As for ship's weapons, I've never seen a specified limit.  Presumably major 
governments are the only ones that can afford serious ship weapons.  I'd say 
no limit on defensive weapons and that a few factor 4 laser batteries would 
not draw attention, but anything more would be a fleet action weapon and I 
wouldn't think a mercenary unit would be interested in fleet actions.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 03:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 02:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] max hull size
Message-ID: <3c.222acf08.2a7cf724@aol.com>

 >> Sorry -- CT HG.  I don't know what HG2 does.
 >
 >HG2 is CT Book 5: High Guard, 2nd edition.
 >
 >It was published in 1980, replacing the 1st edition published in 1979. There
 >was a series of articles in JTAS at the time on updating your version from
 >1st to 2nd to save you buying a new copy. Obviously this passed you by.
 >
 >The version in the CT Reprints is HG2.

Man, I'm messing up left and right here.  Well then I have HG2, but I'm still 
lost.  The numbers and ship specifications I'm seeing posted I don't 
understand at all.  Nothing fits the HG2 book.  Meson gun factor 9 boats that 
are threats to capital ships?  I guess no-one uses HG anymore.

Thanks.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 03:12:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 02:12:04 2002
Subject: [TML] max hull size
In-Reply-To: <3c.222acf08.2a7cf724@aol.com>
References: <3c.222acf08.2a7cf724@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4382.64.8.3.28.1028365894.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

> Man, I'm messing up left and right here.  Well then I have HG2, but I'm
> still  lost.  The numbers and ship specifications I'm seeing posted I
> don't  understand at all.  Nothing fits the HG2 book.  Meson gun factor
> 9 boats that  are threats to capital ships?  I guess no-one uses HG
> anymore.

From my memory: you can have meson and partical accellerator bays as 100
ton and 50 ton bays.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 03:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 02:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <18f.bcbf05f.2a7cf8de@aol.com>

 >I am laughing too hard to issue the requisite command.

I'm sure Karen Hultgreen laughed too.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 03:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 02:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <120.13e4a72a.2a7cf985@aol.com>

 >Most Traveller parties need a full time lawyer - but how many 
 >have you seen with one?

But since the Imperium does not concern itself with local laws, then how much 
good would a lawyer do in a party that travelled from world to world?  He 
would be just as ignorant of local laws as the party.  In fact, he might get 
them into even more trouble.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 03:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Sat Aug  3 02:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Pilots of the Future (was: warship optimization)
In-Reply-To: <20020803083703.29055.32859.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentr
 al.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020803020158.009f6810@mailhost.efn.org>

On Fri, 2 Aug 2002 22:27:48 -0700, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:

>More than a theory actually.  The number of women being trained
>as fighter pilots continues to climb, and there are many predictions
>that the number of female fighter pilots will surpass the number of
>male fighter pilots in not all that many years.

Just in time, some would say, for teleoperated drones to make the whole 
profession obsolete.  There's already quite a bit of "Captain Kirk vs. M-5" 
bluster going back and forth, with the pilots shouting the loudest; they 
already dread Predator duty, which is mostly sitting in a trailer watching 
camera feeds that might as well be simulator screens.  They claim that a 
few weeks of this can dull their edge.  Most of them are smart enough to 
see where the trend inevitably leads... never being able to climb into a 
real plane and put their gonads on the line again.

(And if you think the females are any less macho than the males, you 
haven't heard the old axiom about having to work twice as hard just to make 
the grade.  In fact, the new face of feminism seems to be about proving 
that women can be every bit as stupid and self-destructive as men -- check 
out the rise of female binge drinking on campuses nationwide.)


>   Women in general
>are shorter, lighter, and have better resistance to g forces (ie they
>don't black out as quickly) all of which are very useful qualities in
>modern fighter aircraft.

Of course, if we do go to an all-drone force, different qualities will be 
selected for.  Like being good at video games... which brings us back to 
the start of this sub-thread, doesn't it?



--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 03:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 02:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <40.21b2d6f0.2a7cfea7@aol.com>

 >And I daresay that if we have women serving in full combat capacity
 >under the regimes of either seperate standards (i.e. where they must
 >not meet the same standards as men) or reduced standards (e.g. I
 >understand that two-man stretcher teams are now four or more), we will
 >see plenty of human beings who die miserably because their comrades
 >are not up to the task.

Actually, I'll bet we won't.  The military is talking now about how much 
future warfare will be on the level of special ops, utilizing local troops 
and only sending in special forces to coordinate bomb strikes, like in 
Afghanistan.

Army?  What army?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 03:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 02:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Pilots of the Future (was: warship optimization)
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020803020158.009f6810@mailhost.efn.org>
Message-ID: <002e01c23ad4$cbcbbd00$1d17bd50@martinjd>

> Of course, if we do go to an all-drone force, different qualities will be 
> selected for.  Like being good at video games... which brings us back to 
> the start of this sub-thread, doesn't it?

Main problem with drones is the ECM/ECCM/Jamming seesaw. 

And control lags over combat distances in space, OC.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 03:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 02:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] prejudice (OT)
References: <c3.26abf399.2a7cf0f5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003b01c23ad5$b1af5ca0$1d17bd50@martinjd>

>  I'd
>  >> > dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their
>  >> > traditional roles of nurse and clerk.

>I don't think recognition of a general trend of experience is prejudice.

You've just stated that you'd deny every single woman who wanted to and
could be good enough, the chance to try to be what she wanted, on the basis
of your - by definition limited - experience. Maybe not prejudice, but I
don't have a word for it.

I believe in absolute standards - good enough for the combat area is the
same for everyone, and yes, more men than women are. That's reality. But if
someone is good enough and actually wants to be there, then they have the
right to be.

I have a 7stone, 5 foot woman in my self-defense class. She's not got any of
the right instincts, but she doggedly keeps on trying to learn because she
feels the need. She's small and weak, and quite honestly her capabilities
are poor for the foreseeable future. Potentially, though, she might be able
to develop real capability to protect herself., And she WANTS TO.

Should I refuse to teach her because the chances of success are slim? I
think not.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:01:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:01:06 2002
Subject: [TML] damning (OT)
References: <18c.bcc9ac6.2a7cf019@aol.com>
Message-ID: <004201c23ad6$14a70e20$1d17bd50@martinjd>

>  >
>  >Yeah, and I've seen human beings who were skilled and competent and
>  >determined and motivated and just plain better than me being kept down
>  >because they were born female. You can't damn half the human race on a
>  >generality.
>
> "Damn"?

Condemn to medicrity, to second-class citizenship, to be denied things that
they want for arbitrary reasons, despite their determination, talent and
potential.

What you seem to want to do is to set limits for people.

That's a form of damnation to me.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] System Gen Help
References: <20020802001136.17476.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000201c23ad5$0a9e8080$7400a8c0@imogen>

Paul Walker wrote:
> I am doing an extended system generation.  I rolled
> for #6 to be the max orbit.  I also rolled for 2
> captured planets.  One is in orbit 6.3 and the other
> is in 6.0
> 
> Orbit 6 and 5 are both SGG's.  4 is the mainworld and
> the habitable zone.
> 
> Is this legitimate?  Or do I need to move the captured
> planet in orbit 6.0 to somewhere else.

I don't know of any written rule to cover this (someone speak  up
if they know of one)  but  I  don't  see  a  problem  with  this.
Captured planets aren't just extra planets, they are plants  that
were added to the system after it formed.  The max orbits  number
just means max number of *normally forming* orbits (unless  we're
talking about companion stars).  And the orbit  number only tells
you the *average distance* from the star.  What I tend to do (and
would do in this case) is to give a combination of  some  or  all
of: make the orbit highly eccentric, or highly  inclined  to  the
system's orbital plane, or make it's motion retrograde,  or  give
the planet a high axial tilt.  Probably all.

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"
References: <11c.14d66d9e.2a7ce27f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <005301c23ad6$a4ab5760$1d17bd50@martinjd>

>
> I rest my case.
>
> "It's Milosivic's fault we bombed a convoy of farmers!"
> "It's Arafat's fault we bombed that apartment building!"
> "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a convoy of inauguration representatives
on
> the open road!"
>
> If I were to act with this level of disregard even in defense of my own
> children, I'd be in jail.  McVeigh was right -- "collateral damage" covers
a
> multitude of sins.

This sort of thing happens in war all the time. War is a tapestry of misery
and suffering, most of it needless.

People demand that we go to do what must be done ( or sometimes protest
about it and refuse to see why it must be done) then condemn the military
when innocents get hurt.

The answer? Learn to get along and abolish conflict.
Until then, we must accept the paradox and try to do the best we can not to
cause needless suffering. But we will, all the same.
That's why this world sucks.






From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:07:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:07:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <2cce1d2ceb69.2ceb692cce1d@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <006001c23ad7$072d8ac0$1d17bd50@martinjd>

>
>
> > Matt, Martin,
> > I agree with both points presented below.  I think fighters should
> > be more
> > effective in a coordinated, massed attack than they are
> > individually.  I also
> > agree that 'coordinated' is the key term.
> >

I'm thinking that an initial "battery" attack would be permissible, with
"friction" throws required to avoid losing cohesion and becoming just a mob
of armed gnats. Breaking off and reforming would be necessary.

You might also consider fighter control bays aboard carriers?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:08:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:08:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <82.1f5501bd.2a7cdb36@aol.com>
Message-ID: <006b01c23ad7$2b16f660$1d17bd50@martinjd>


> >Has anyone noted the set up with regards to the number of starports that
>  >can produce starships versus those that can only builld system ships?
And
>  >to make matters worse, there aren't that many high tech star ports
around
>
> I have.  It does make a big difference, doesn't it?  "If my ships are
cheaper
> I'll be able to build more of them!"  No you can't.
>

See above comment that HG/TCS does not adequately provide a realistic naval
warfare system. But it is a cool game.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:08:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:08:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <182.c122206.2a7d0578@aol.com>

 >But this is the TML, and one supposes that in the 57th century, the measure
 >of a sophont's fitness for a particular duty is tied to their ability to
 >perform it.  One may assume that the Imperium establishes baseline
 >requirements for, say an MOS, and holds to those standards regardless of
 >race or gender.  This may result in a higher proportion of males in a
 >particular MOS, perhaps females in another.

Does MOS really describe the job requirements?  Sure, anyone can sit at a 
desk and process paperwork -- but if paratroopers land nearby then I think it 
becomes clear that what your MOS is and what your actual job is are two 
different things.  Relying strictly on MOS leaves your army inflexible and 
brittle.  The marine's approach is good -- no matter what you go on to be, 
you start out as an infantryman.

And I think you'd see quite a bit of racial segregation.  For example, as I 
understand, in the old Imperial Japanese Army a man could be rejected for 
service because of too much body odor.  I'm sure a unit of mixed races would 
have many similar distracting conflicts of culture and biology.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
References: <186.bc7cec0.2a7cc747@aol.com>
Message-ID: <007901c23ad7$ae247640$1d17bd50@martinjd>

>  >
>  >And again, why do you want this? Barring me swallowing some and
suffering
>  >some strange kind of poisoning, no amount of flies can beat me in a
straight
>  >fight. My feeling is that fightrers are good for screening and keeping
>  >merchies in line. Big ships are for killing big ships.
>
> Yeah.  But Traveller is an RPG, not just a pseudo-scientific wargame.
It's
> nice to be able to have a Luke Skywalker in an X-wing.

Well, yes. The Death Star attack was more like a one-off asymmetric attack
than a regular combat operation. I'm willing the believe (for gaming and fun
purposes) in such a one-off "we have an opportunity" operations. But not in
routine combat.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:14:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:14:09 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
Message-ID: <fc.1bc430d6.2a7d06b7@aol.com>

 >Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
 >big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.

What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other sensor systems 
you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Firearms in Vacumn
In-Reply-To: <3D43E470.DA5F22D1@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20803.011715.6z8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> 
>> In mail you write:
>> 
>> > "Robert Uhl " wrote:
>> >>
>> >> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
>> >> >
>> >> > No, but guns *have* been fired underwater (this is a somewhat
>> >> > different situation than firing one with a barrel full of water).
>> >>
>> >> Anyone here have any experience doing this?  I know that it's supposed
>> >> to work, but I've never worked up the courage or folly necessary to
>> >> play with it.  I've a lot of respect for Things What Go Boom, and I've
>> >> little desire to annoy them...
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
>> >> If your franchise is not secured by force of personal arms, you are a
>> >> subject, not a citizen.                               --H. Beam Piper
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> TML mailing list
>> >> TML@travellercentral.com
>> >> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>> >
>> > I launched a model rocket from underwater after seeing it in "The Model
>> > Roceteer" It was very
>> > impressive.
>> 
>> Do you still have any copies of The Model Rocketeer? Mine got lost a
>> long time ago :-(
>
> I think so, I'll have a look next time I'm cleaning that part of the garage. 
> Anything in particular
> or do you want that article on underwater launches?

Well, I'd like to have a set of the silly things, or at least a decent
scan of them.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:19:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:19:09 2002
Subject: [TML] missile capacities
Message-ID: <120.13e4a732.2a7d07e4@aol.com>

 >> They are too inefficient to kill, yes.  But they can still be a royal pain
 >> in the ass.  In the end though capital ships can kill them but they can't
 >> kill capital ships.  Eventually they run out of missiles.
 >
 >Only in the real world, not in HG. : )

HG says absolutely nothing about it.  Show me a hundred ton bay and a 
physical object, and I can tell you how many of those objects will fit into 
the bay.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <1a1.64c8bb6.2a7cc59a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <008601c23ad9$12eafee0$1d17bd50@martinjd>


> >Let's turn this on its head. Can you explain how this model of yours
>  >works...? How do you plan to fight a war with it?
>
> Recall, I'm working with CT HG (the original -- I understand there is an
HG2
> out?).
>
> I put a fleet together for the Spinward Marches.  Being what it is, it is
> primarily intended to be defensive.  Most of it is stationed at Jewell,
> Efate, and Regina, with task forces at Vilis, Lunion, and Glisten.  If the
> Zhodies send their main fleet body in a straight-on attack then we'll
decide
> the issue then and there.  If they send the main body on an end run by
Vilis
> heading for my high-population worlds then I'll just have to try to catch
> them while sending in two or three task forces to try and blockade Cronor,
> cutting off their supplies.  If that attack succeeds then they will be
forced
> to retreat -- if they ever find out.  Meanwhile I'll be attempting to
engage
> their main body with my main body.  If we meet then again we'll decide the
> issue.  If they scatter to spread havoc then I'll break up into units that
> hopefully will always outnumber their groups and just continue to pursue
> them, scooping them up as I find them while also leaving some task forces
on
> the border hoping to catch their isolated elements as they try to leave.
> Anyway, that's what I envision.

Okay. The Zhos have thrown large numbers of light cruisers and "merchant
raiders" (armed merchant ships posing as legitimate traffic) across the
border and are raiding lightly defended ports, shooting up your logistics
train and the Sector Duke is yelling at you that dozens of world governments
are yelling at HIM for protection. Many of these raids are by ships in the
light or even heavy cruiser class. Some sightings mention capital ships and
small task groups. They've probably got support ships out there somewhere
too.

Zho fleet elements have struck at weak targets on the border, but you don't
know it they retired afterward or are advancing.
Your intelligence is a mess of vessel reports, and while the attacks on
minor worlds are trivial from a military standpoint, those are imperial
citizens being shot up. Some border  worlds (again, soft targets) have been
assaulted by ground forces and may now be under occupation. The sector duke
wants those worlds retaken. He wants the raids stopped.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:24:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:24:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonabo Class Missile Frigate
Message-ID: <c1.24afabf6.2a7d092f@aol.com>

 Incidentally, it goes without saying that these things kill TL E- ships
 quite nicely.

TL E is very vulnerable.  The meson screens and nuke dampers are weak.

I think this is a better design:

1000 ton hull
J4
M6
Armor4
100 ton missile bay (holds 100 salvos)
etc

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Baboon Class Missile Frigate
Message-ID: <19c.6563ee4.2a7d0bfa@aol.com>

 >A trillion credits worth of these things will only mission kill one or two
 >capital ships per turn, and will suffer considerable losses in return.
 >
 >They probably don't work out as a match for capital ships, but they are
 >close enough to be useful, I suspect.

Assuming CT HG2, if you put armor 4 on them they are very difficult to deal 
with.  I've run simulations of this several times, and each time it's a draw. 
 The capital ships can kill them, but only a few at a time.  By the time 
hundreds of them are forced into the reserve you have dozens repairing their 
way out and back into the front line each turn, with a steady-state of about 
2 on-line to 1 in-reserve.  Meanwhile they sweep the capital ships of weapons 
at a steady rate.  It's close, but by the time the frigates are ready to win 
they run out of missiles.  It's curiously balanced.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:38:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:38:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <a8.f784519.2a7cbf66@aol.com>
Message-ID: <009b01c23adb$506d89c0$1d17bd50@martinjd>

>  >
>  >If you spread out a mix of powerful and less powerful commerce raiders,
>  >you'll pull more fleet assets away. That's half the point.
>
> I'll be concentrating on the core fleet of the enemy.  If I defeat them,
then
> I'll round up the commerce raiders at leisure.  That's my whole point.

Yes indeed. All we need is a decisive battle and we've won. Of course,
sometimes you can't have one. While the main fleets search for one another,
you get nibbled at, and your political will gets eroded.

> Good points all.  Sure you'll have revenue losses -- can you imagine what
the
> Soviet Union's revenue losses were like? -- but if in the meantime the
main
> enemy fleet is engaged and defeated then that won't matter.

IF. But what if the enemy uses his fleet in being as a threat, a pin, while
he crumbles at you? What if he WON'T fight that decisive battle?

>"The only thing
> more expensive than a war is losing."  As for morale and demands for
> protection, the civilians will know their best chance for protection is a
> fleet victory.

As they're bombed and shot up by a cruiser? As they hear more reports of
merchant ships and outposts killed by raiders? No they won't.

Modern war - 4th generation war - is fought in the living rooms of the
populace. Manipulating them is one of the keys to victory. Give them enough
uncountered threats, enough needless deaths, and they'll be demanding peace.


>One can point to any number of instances where stubborn
> insistence on city protection contrary to military necessity has caused
the
> defeat of an army.

And yet you have to do it sometimes. War is not purely a military matter. It
is the attempt by one state to impose its will upon the other, by military
and... other...means.

>Further, the loudest calls for protection will be from
> those worlds capable of building their own local defense forces.  As for
the
> missiles, yes, that's a major problem if you are missile-heavy, and I
think
> the best way to solve it is to have large stocks on hand in protected
bases
> before the war and not try to manufacture what you need during a war.

Procurement and budget issues. No force ever went to war with enough
ammunition. And once you move from base and fiore some missiles, you have to
get resupply. Either by goijng back to rearm, or by using vulnerable
logistics ships.

>
>  >>If
>  >> trade is truly a major issue and lifeline then a massed herd of
raiders
> will
>  >> be crippling regardless of any other fleet elements employed.
>  >
>  >Until it inevitably gets squashed. Dispersed raiding works better, other
>  >than for targeted strikes, say on a critical system to massacre the
>  >concentration of merhcant shipping there.
>
> It will only get squashed if it gets caught by a superior force.

Which will happen if there is just one target at large.

>If your
> opponent disperses, then dispersing yourself simply plays his game at his
> level, but staying concentrated leaves all of his dispersed elements
unable
> to oppose you.

You can of course partially disperse or disperse and form some big and some
small raider groups. But raiding en masse is more of a targeted strike - hit
and leave. It's not really viable as a tactic, because raider forces are by
definition inferior to fleet units, and that's what they'll face if they
hand an opportunity to the opposition.

>
>  >Assuming he's rich enough to afford a fleet like that. Guerre de Course
has
>  >always been the weaker nation's option.
>
> If you are richer than your opponent then there's little he can do.

Who won the Vietnam war again?

>If you
> are equal, then if you're rich enough to build a significant escort/patrol
> fleet and scatter it everywhere then he's rich enough to build an
equal-value
> capital fleet and slowly march it through your scattered escorts.

You're thniking of everything in terms of a mapboard and counters. I'm
discussing warfare. I already mentioned the politoical necessity to catch
raiders etc so I won't bring it up again. But I will say that finding and
catching raiders is a ship-intensive and impressively difficult task, though
if you keep at it you'll succeed. Just remember that you can't be sure where
his forces are or what they're doing to you while you're marching through
his escorts.

>
>  >> I don't think you can get "greater concentration of force" with "less
> ships".
>  >
>  >I have 6 ships, you have 12. I draw 8 of your ships away with a feint,
and
>  >gain local superiority. You sent them all? Great. I smash your base. You
>  >sent none? Well, if my recon is up to it I'll know. Next time I just
smash
>  >something elsewhere , maybe with pairs of my ships, while you sit tight
and
>  >wait for the big clash at JUtland.
>
> And if I outfeint you?  I think you're assuming a defensive and dumb
enemy,
> with you holding all the offense and recon-intelligence cards.  If you
have
> six and I have twelve I'll just guard the base with six and chase you with
> the other six.
>
> I'm about done here.

The feint/outfeint is one of the risks of war. I may be willing to fight
your six with mine, and trust to my ships and crews to win it for me - this
sort of writing-down of the enemy at the best odds you can get was German
High Seas Fleet policy in WWI.

As to a dumb enemy... fair comment. I've heard the "enemy" make a number of
sweeping pronounbcements of the "oh, I'd just" that make me confident that
once reality intruded, friction would render this enemy less capable than he
thinks.





From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:39:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:39:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIELACEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <00a601c23adb$79171580$1d17bd50@martinjd>

> >From: cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng)
> >
> >Even today, I am still amazed just how lucky the Germans were.  Even with
> >all their planning, they still could not have predicted the good fortune
> >they actually got.
>
> Possible explanations for this run of luck:
>
> 1)

There was a good deception plan, and some excellent planning regarding
timing and execution. They made an opportunity to get lucky...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <3.0.5.16.20020802200157.46a789a6@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <00c701c23adb$e7d770a0$1d17bd50@martinjd>

> The 50s ended, my dear sir.  As long as they can do the job.  Oh, and an
> NCO having sex with a solider in the same chain of command is a violation
> of the UCMJ.  They deserved to get busted.
> -- 

Yeah! All hail Doug. Doug is Wise. 
For a 7 year-old penguin-obsessive....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <20020802231503.19852.60096.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <3D4B3637.35538EB8@mailbag.com>
Message-ID: <00e801c23adc$47c368c0$1d17bd50@martinjd>

> 
> Not quite Clint, yet even Clint had some intellegent moments.
.


You mean Clif!

Hey, everyone, he invoked Clif!

Clif has been Invoked!


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <112.1523c9f7.2a7c50e1@aol.com><014a01c23a78$a159d220$5d0bbd50@martinjd> <m3znw4epbc.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <00f701c23adc$73358a60$1d17bd50@martinjd>

> And I daresay that if we have women serving in full combat capacity
> under the regimes of either seperate standards (i.e. where they must
> not meet the same standards as men) or reduced standards (e.g. I
> understand that two-man stretcher teams are now four or more), we will
> see plenty of human beings who die miserably because their comrades
> are not up to the task.
>
> And I hardly think that shielding from death and destruction is
> `damning.'  Rather a nice thing to do, as a matter of fact.

Quite. We must have absolute standards for everyone, but those who make the
grade should be allowed to serve.

The present system of differential requirements is just plain daft.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 04:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 03:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
References: <fc.1bc430d6.2a7d06b7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <011801c23adc$bdd0f780$1d17bd50@martinjd>

> >Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
>  >big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.
>
> What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other sensor
systems
> you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?


Mines, even of a CAPTOR type, don't have much area coverage. You'd need a
lot of them to cover an area, though orbits and other choke points are a
possibility.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 05:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 04:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
Message-ID: <3015092fe19a.2fe19a301509@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Flykiller@aol.com
Date: Saturday, August 3, 2002 1:13 pm
Subject: [TML] mines

> >Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
> >big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.
> 
> What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other 
> sensor systems 
> you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?

I recommend you read Bruce Alan Macintosh's Definitive Sensor Rules for 
T4/FF&S2 for a complete discussion of sensors.  Passive sensors IRL 
would have ranges in space significanly better than those of active 
sensors such as radar.

http://traveller.mu.org/house/sensor.rules.html



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 05:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 04:16:03 2002
Subject: C**f (was: Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller)
Message-ID: <30360530300f.30300f303605@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: MJ Dougherty <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Date: Saturday, August 3, 2002 1:54 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller

> > 
> > Not quite Clint, yet even Clint had some intellegent moments.
> .
> 
> 
> You mean Clif!
> 
> Hey, everyone, he invoked Clif!
> 
> Clif has been Invoked!

Is that the TML equivalent of Godwin's Law?  ;-)

http://www.godwinslaw.com/

And yes, I remember the Days of C**f.... :-P

I refer the newcomers to the list to the fourth Ditzie pic on Jesse 
DeGraff's page:

http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/ditzie.htm


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 05:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 04:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Acceptable losses
Message-ID: <3073a4307395.3073953073a4@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: MJ Dougherty <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Date: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 6:45 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Acceptable losses

> 
> > Brian Caball says
> > >What about the whole "over the top" attitude of WWI? Pouring
> > >thousands of lives into suicidal charges for far less gain
> >
> > Yes, for a gain of a few yards, or no gain at all.
> >
> > Some people I know do *not* believe the casualty figures from
> > WW I.  They insist that it's simply not possible.
> >
> > I keep pointing out references in history books to whole
> > regiments being gunned down by machine gun fire.  They insist
> > that no men would do such a thing, especially if they had
> > seen it done before
> 
> See previous comment about French refusal to continue this way, at 
> leastuntil confidence in the gain was restored....

Then there's the pair of quotes that begin one chapter of T.R. 
Fehrenbach's _This Kind of War: A Study In Unpreparedness_ (quoted from 
memory):

"The capture of this hill is worth ten thousand men!" - French general 
on the Western Front during WW I
"Generous bastard, isn't he?" - The commander of the lead assault 
battalion




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 05:21:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 04:21:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Transporters and Tractor Beams
In-Reply-To: <3D446DE8.9002.D95DFD@localhost>
Message-ID: <20803.035628.8c6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On 28 Jul 2002 at 2:22, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> In mail you write:
>> 
>> > Well, I was thinking, if the Imperium were to invent (or
>> > retro-engineer) them and make them available on their ships. I take
>> > your point on size, I was thinking about them being Trek-sized I
>> > guess.  I know a Trek transporter extends above and below the
>> > occupiable deck some way so they'd be several tons in displacement
>> > and would probably require a good old suck on the power plant so they
>> > would probably be a no-no for player sized ships anyway.
>> 
>> Remember, Voyager and DS-9 had them in *runabouts*. 
>> 
>> And frankly, I agree with Niven's comments in his essay "the Theory and
>> Practice of Teleportation".
>> 
>> A single-ended teleport device (ie you only need equipment at one end)
>> is the recipe for a *very* short war.
>
> There was an A. C. Clarke short story about this. The Martians put a 
> nuke-armed ship over each major city on Earth to 'encourage' our co-
> operation. This merely encouraged the development of a teleportation 
> system. After the bombs were sent through they sent people to Mars to 
> have a look. IIRC the main demand was for archaeologists to sifts 
> through the ruins.

Actually, that was Clarke's *first* published story.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 05:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 04:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <39.2b0d8fbb.2a7d17c6@aol.com>

 >>Whatever benefits they bring I think are outweighed by the negatives.  I'd 
 >>dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their 
 >>traditional roles of nurse and clerk.
 >
 >I knew many excellent female soldiers, who pulled their weight and then
 >some.

I've known several too.  One particular medic and a particularly effective 
battalion XO and one hard little DI come to mind.  But the majority of the 
one's I've met were passive and weak or simply -- well, like most of you feel 
about me.  Some were flatly disobedient, and no-one would touch them because 
they were female.  Many were flatly unqualified physically, but they were 
female and so were kept.  I was, and am, bottom of the barrel physically, and 
I always had great difficulty passing any of the PT tests, but I could run 
circles around the vast majority of the females I've seen, no exaggeration.  
Oh I helped them, I encouraged them.  As a sergeant it was my job.  "Come on, 
you can do it!  Get yourself up!" on her sixth and last needed push-up.   She 
couldn't do it.  The (male) DI's gathered round her, and marked her record as 
passing, and she moved happily along.  Running alongside another who's about 
to fail her 24 minute PT:  "I'm dying!"  "You are _not_ going to die, no 
matter how much it hurts.  Now there's an injured man up there, you are his 
only hope, keep going!  C'mon c'mon c'mon!"  She passed, crawling over the 
line at the last second.  But I think Karen Hultgreen is at the end of this 
road.  I don't think an army or a navy needs this, I don't think a nation's 
defense needs this.  And that's not damning women, and that's not prejudice.

 >I also saw many male soldiers who whined and always seemed to be on
profile.

Many?  I saw a small handful -- in boot camp.  None of them passed.  Outside 
of that, it was just normal morale problems.  My first reserve unit was top 
notch, the navy men complained but were reliable and tough, and my next 
reserve unit seemed to have nothing but capable people (except for a few 
opportunistic bureaucrats).  I can't speak to where you were, but I've been 
to some places and seen some environments, and I can't say I've seen "many" 
male whiners or sick-bay commandos.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 05:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Aug  3 04:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lawyers
Message-ID: <20020803114546.E36724505@mo130uhou.palm.net>

n Space  
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain ; boundary="----=_Part_14584_6132357.1028375146935"
X-Mailer: smtp

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:
[snip]
>Most Traveller parties need a full time lawyer - but how many  
>have you seen with one?  

Even Doc Savage kept a lawyer in his group. :-)
Useful for the high Admin skills too...

----------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 05:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 04:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes
Message-ID: <68.23ff06b1.2a7d1d9d@aol.com>

 In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head tax" or does it charge
 an income tax on its citizens for its Imperial Budget requirements?  In
 short, if the Imperial government taxes 10% of a Gross Planetary Product,
 then it would in essence be an income tax.  If it charges a flat 500 CR
 per person on a planet, then it is a head tax.  Which is it?

Either way, you can't build a fleet that expends all of your budget.

Sales tax.  Not everyone will be able to pay a head tax, and chasing down 
everyone would be tedious.  A sales tax on large fixed would be more 
efficient -- they can't hide, and everyone winds up paying through higher 
prices anyway.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 05:59:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 04:59:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Taxes
Message-ID: <85.1f38e034.2a7d1f78@aol.com>

 >TCS says its a head count

Actually, it doesn't.  It says "... ; Cr500 is the amount of naval tax paid 
by the average citizen ; ..."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith Mormon minion of Arioch)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes
References: <68.23ff06b1.2a7d1d9d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <01ee01c23ae6$45115c90$6f7ba8c0@kenneith93j41k>

I would say the imperium levees a tax on a system and it is up to the system
to figure out how to pay it. We need you to give us 1.5 b more credits, the
imperium doesn't care how you raise the funds as long as they get their
money, just as I am sure their are many local government who blame the
imperium for the high taxes the people pay but in reality it goes to their
own pockets.
ken

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comics
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you
http://www.geocities.com/J_Elric_Smith/Index.html
----- Original Message -----
From: <Flykiller@aol.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 7:50 AM
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes


> In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head tax" or does it charge
>  an income tax on its citizens for its Imperial Budget requirements?  In
>  short, if the Imperial government taxes 10% of a Gross Planetary Product,
>  then it would in essence be an income tax.  If it charges a flat 500 CR
>  per person on a planet, then it is a head tax.  Which is it?
>
> Either way, you can't build a fleet that expends all of your budget.
>
> Sales tax.  Not everyone will be able to pay a head tax, and chasing down
> everyone would be tedious.  A sales tax on large fixed would be more
> efficient -- they can't hide, and everyone winds up paying through higher
> prices anyway.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208021045440.12501-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <3D4BC838.3C66EE32@mindspring.com>

Azalais Malfoy wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 2 Aug 2002, Hurrel, Brian wrote:
> 
> >  >The Germans, and
> >  >particularly the Japanese were horribly dehumanized.  We made our enemies
> >  >into monsters so then it was OK to exterminate them.
> >
> > If there was any dehumanizing of the Germans and Japanese, they did it
> > themselves through their own brutality.
> 
> Um, all of them, even the children?
<Snip> 
> Kiri

Children can be particularly cruel. Seeing a crowd of 'redneck' children (~8 yo) calling a black
child Nigger and attacking that child with rocks cured me of the 'children are innocent' belief.
While I believe its true they learned this from their parents, it doesn't change anything from the
black childs perspective. And without some life changing experience, they are likely to grow up like
my wifes cousin and carry a 'nigger skinning knife'. 


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:14:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:14:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: troll optimization on the TML
Message-ID: <memo.572868@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <200208030048.LYB01066@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
> Mex, you need to have Fly run around the parade ground until 
> you get tired...

Now THERE's a Good Idea :-)

"Flykiller, front and centre!"

Mexal.
formerly Sergeant, 22nd (Cheshire) Regiment, British Army.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:14:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:14:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <memo.572869@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <B97089CA.67857%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
> But this is the TML, and one supposes that in the 57th century, the 
> measure
> of a sophont's fitness for a particular duty is tied to their ability to
> perform it.  One may assume that the Imperium establishes baseline
> requirements for, say an MOS, and holds to those standards regardless of
> race or gender.  This may result in a higher proportion of males in a
> particular MOS, perhaps females in another.

Indeed, that is how it should be. If a task demands physical strength or 
endurance, then you pick people with those qualitities. If the task 
requires mental agility or specific academic training, you chose someone 
who has it (or, in the case of training, who has the base ability to 
benefit from being given that training, if you have the time!).

Some things you can work around. For example, I am intolerant of cold. By 
now, I am very good at keeping myself warm! Surprised my students last 
winter, I never appeared chilly, while they were all huddled in their 
overcoats first thing on Mondays in an outlying hut that isn't heated. But 
female teachers who wear long flowing skirts can hide a multitude of 
things (like long underwear!!!) :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:15:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:15:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <memo.572870@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020802195559.46a76b08@pop.mindspring.com>
To answer your questions.

> >Me! Me! Pick me!
> 
> 1. Are you nuts?

Yes.

> 2. Really nuts?

Yes. Do I have to repeat myself?

> 3. Can you lie perfectly still while an enemy soldier urinates on you?

You think I want to move around?
 
> 4. As in #4, but it is a National Guardsman during a training mission.

And?

> 5. Do you stand and remove your hat when you hear GnySgt Carlos Hathcock
> mentioned?

Of course, don't you?

> 6. Do you believe in your heart of hearts that there is no such thing as
> friendly artillery?

Yes.
 
> 7. When walking in open areas, do you automatically check sight lines 
> and
> exfil routes?

Naturally. Doesn't everyone?
 
> 8. Do you refer to your wife as your spotter?

Nope. I don't refer to him as my wife :-)

> 9. Do you/Did you make every target at 300 meters but miss the 50 meter 
> ones?

Well, I usually hit both sets...

> 10. We mean it, are you *really* nuts?

You haven't noticed yet?

> If you answered yes to all these questions, you might have what it 
> takes.
> Just send Cr 20 and 10 7.62mm shell casings to:
> 
> Sniping for Dummies
> c/o ACQ Weapons
> Box 26, Gridlore Complex
> Lunion Up #3
> Lunion/Lunion/Spinward Marches

Mexal (not sniper-trained - in the British Army they only accept right 
handers... Grrr.)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:16:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:16:40 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes
Message-ID: <memo.572871@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <4957.64.8.3.28.1028349006.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
IMTU, the Imperium taxes its member planets. How that planet chooses to 
raise the money to meet the Imperial tax bill is up to them.

Most just hike their own income tax a fraction of a percent. 

Some, especially those who are lukewarm about their membership, charge a 
separate 'Imperial Tax' to make the point that people are being charged 
for the privilege.

Some levy the tax on what they perceive as being the benefits of belonging 
to the Imperium, such as interstellar trade.

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <39.2b0d8fbb.2a7d17c6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001401c23ae8$dcdeae40$0905bd50@martinjd>

> circles around the vast majority of the females I've seen, no
exaggeration.

On the flip side, two of my friends (female friends) are more determined and
in absolute terms more capable than half the men in our martial arts class.
They're better than many who hold higher grades. They'd be barred under your
rules.

>that's not damning women, and that's not prejudice.

Deciding the fate of half the human race - pre-judging their capabilities -
becuase of gender. Nah, that's notuing like prejudice.

Of course, the poor dears can't be expected to understand politics, manage
an estate or run a business either. Any you know? they couldn't do it. Not
until someone let them try.





From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:19:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:19:08 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208021045440.12501-100000@shell.tsoft.com> <3D4BC838.3C66EE32@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <002901c23ae9$3da4d9c0$0905bd50@martinjd>

>
> Children can be particularly cruel. Seeing a crowd of 'redneck' children
(~8 yo) calling a black
> child Nigger and attacking that child with rocks cured me of the 'children
are innocent' belief.
> While I believe its true they learned this from their parents, it doesn't
change anything from the
> black childs perspective. And without some life changing experience, they
are likely to grow up like
> my wifes cousin and carry a 'nigger skinning knife'.

They can. OC, it's easy to be cruel to someone you've dehumanized, or
watched your parents dehumanize.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:26:02 2002
Subject: JTAS Contest (was: Re: [TML] warship optimization in traveller)
References: <20020802182504.13132.61928.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <3D4AE7C4.85DCBD6E@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <3D4BCB8A.4E223775@mindspring.com>

David Shayne wrote:
> 
> > Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 20:07:38 +0300
> > From: john.groth@us.army.mil
<snip>
> >
> > [**] For those who would like to participate, just go to the
> > Starship/Vehicle Design discussion board on JTAS.  Not a subscriber?
> > Why not?  It's only $15 US per two years for biweekly issues and access
> > to archives, discussion boards and Brubek's chat room.  [And if you
> > mention that aurictech referred you, I get a free month added to _my_
> > subscription! ;-)]
> 
> Ignore this blatant self promotion and tell them davidshayne sent you.
> 
> :)
> 
> > http://jtas.sjgames.com/subscribe/

No, no. Tell them Alan Spik sent you. I'll name a ship in Glistens 100th Fleet after you. Remember
you heard that offer here first. ;p


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:27:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:27:04 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
Message-ID: <004301c23aea$9c802fc0$0905bd50@martinjd>

Just a reminder that there's stuff on the Citizens website.


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-to-the-Masses
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <004901c23aea$d61edba0$0905bd50@martinjd>

Go take a look at CotI, under "my fellow Citizens", for something
interesting.


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-to-the-Masses
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:29:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:29:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <001401c23ae8$dcdeae40$0905bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3D4C752C.26063.37AF39@localhost>

On 3 Aug 2002, at 13:25, MJ Dougherty wrote:

> Of course, the poor dears can't be expected to understand politics, manage an
> estate or run a business either. Any you know? they couldn't do it. Not until
> someone let them try.

"Women have a sort "decorative" function, rather like teapots; and you 
wouldn't expect a teapot to go around making decisions now would you?"

[Can anyone place the quote?]

ObTrav: Not a sausage that I can see.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:31:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:31:05 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <004f01c23aea$fc955ac0$0905bd50@martinjd>

also see http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/writing.html


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-to-the-Masses
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <112.1523c9f7.2a7c50e1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4BCDB5.17057FCA@mindspring.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> 
>  >In the active service I've know many fine female sailors who were competent
>  >technicians and fine seaman. And more than a few who were more competent
>  >leaders than many of the critics who bemoaned the posting of woman to ships.
> 
> I've seen a handful.  Offsetting this, I've seen companies where every single
> corporal  and several sergeants get busted down for sex with the female
> privates.  I've seen active duty females refuse orders to perform physical
> tasks (like dumping trash cans) and tell sergeants to their face to "get a
> male to do it".  I've seen females who cannot, and I mean cannot, pass their
> limited physical fitness tests, who can't do  even seven pushups, but who
> still remain in units.  I've seen females who cannot climb the ladder from
> the shaft alley to the second deck and who have to be helped.  I've seen
> females finish their expensive training and then promptly be discharged
> because they're pregnant.
> 
> Whatever benefits they bring I think are outweighed by the negatives.  I'd
> dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their
> traditional roles of nurse and clerk.  If the US military is so hard-up for
> warm bodies that it really needs females, then I say reinstitute the WACS and
> WAVES and whatever else, with their own standards and their own chain of
> command, and put them in charge of stateside facilities like hospitals and
> supply depots and personnel offices so men are freed up for more forward
> duties.

While seeing some of the same things in the early 80's, I saw very dedicated and professional women
also.
I think the real fix would be for the Sgt/PO. to issue a report chit on any female who refused an
order. The 'one' women in my shop who tried this on me wound up with 15 days extra duty and an
extreme hatred of me. But she didn't try it again in my presence. Of course she didn't offer sex to
get out of work. ;p Maybe being in the RP had something to do with it.

-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prejudice (OT)
Message-ID: <116.14e786df.2a7d2ad1@aol.com>

 >>  I'd
 >>  >> > dismiss all females from the regular military, including from their
 >>  >> > traditional roles of nurse and clerk.
 >
 >>I don't think recognition of a general trend of experience is prejudice.
 >
 >You've just stated that you'd deny every single woman who wanted to and
 >could be good enough, the chance to try to be what she wanted, on the basis
 >of your - by definition limited - experience. Maybe not prejudice, but I
 >don't have a word for it.

I'm not the only one with this limited experience.  But I don't have a word 
for it either.  

One finds precisely this same discrimination against 40 year olds.  Some can 
handle it, sure, but 40 year olds can't join because enough of them have 
sufficient problems that it's just not worth it to the army to sort through 
it.  One finds similar discrimination against prior-service -- they do their 
best to keep you out, I know from personal experience, and if you do get back 
in you get _no_ breaks.  I don't have a problem with either form of 
discrimination because I know each deals with a certain problem set, and I'm 
saying that a similar sort of problem set exists in females in the military. 
Does this damn 40 year olds?  Does this damn women?

 >I believe in absolute standards - good enough for the combat area is the
 >same for everyone, and yes, more men than women are. That's reality. But if
 >someone is good enough and actually wants to be there, then they have the
 >right to be.

There is no right to be in the military.

 >I have a 7stone, 5 foot woman in my self-defense class. She's not got any of
 >the right instincts, but she doggedly keeps on trying to learn because she
 >feels the need. She's small and weak, and quite honestly her capabilities
 >are poor for the foreseeable future. Potentially, though, she might be able
 >to develop real capability to protect herself., And she WANTS TO.
 >
 >Should I refuse to teach her because the chances of success are slim? I
 >think not.

And good heavens, I agree.  But joining the army is not the same.  The army 
needs people it can definitely train now, that it can depend on to be able to 
do certain things now, and that are tough enough to get it done now.  Most 
women don't meet some of those criteria, and bringing in large numbers of 
them in the hope that a few will rise to what is required is the same as 
bringing in a large number of 40 year olds in the hope that some of them will 
rise to what is required.  Whatever the gain here and there, the effort 
overall is counter-productive.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:49:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:49:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Meduim Navies
References: <3D4B1F7E.736A3F94@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3D4BD0E3.F1507CBD@mindspring.com>

Roseberry wrote:
> 
> This may have gotten lost in my last post and the minor flame spat
> going on, so I'll throw it out again and see if anyone bites.
> 
> What would the Imperuim see as the maximum allowable size, maximum
> allowable quantitative/qualitative weaponry, for a mercenary ship?
> 
> Presumabley they would frown on paws and meson guns, but would they
> allow big bay weapons?
> 
IMTU spinal mounts of any type and meson bays are in the same class 'weapons of mass destruction'
That said, registered mercenary units are able to get other types of bay weapons, as are papered
privateers. 


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 06:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug  3 05:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <fc.1bc430d6.2a7d06b7@aol.com>
References: <fc.1bc430d6.2a7d06b7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020803224859.A16270@freeman.little-possums.net>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
>  >Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
>  >big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.
> 
> What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other sensor systems 
> you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?

Well, the problem is that even if you have literally thousands of
them, the nearest one will likely pass tens of thousands of kilometres
from the target.  So they need pretty good sensors, which means
significant cost and size.

Worse still, we're talking about insystem relative speeds which are
often on the order of megametres per second.  In a typical Traveller
space combat sequence, the ship gets a million kilometres away during
the combat round in which it is detected.  No mine can mount a direct
fire weapon with that range, so it has to power up some extreme
thrusters and play tag, or launch a missile which has thrusters.  More
cost and size.

At thirty gees, it can catch the ship in about two hours.  That sort
of endurance needs a damn good power source and possibly fuel, adding
yet more cost and size.

Unfortunately, it is also radiating a bucketload of power via its
thrusters, making it pretty easy to spot and subsequently shoot with
any basic point-defense the target might have.  It better have some
defensive features like armour or sandcasters, as well as a pretty
good agility.  And a good computer.  More cost and size.


By this point, you're talking about something that bears more
resemblance to an autonomous fighter than a mine.  Almost certainly
not something that you can scatter by the thousands in the hope that a
few might be able to hit something one day.

It could be done very effectively in GURPS, but I all the easy ways I
can think of use technology forbidden in the standard GURPS Traveller
universe.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 07:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 06:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] prejudice (OT)
References: <116.14e786df.2a7d2ad1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <009801c23af1$c17b2e40$0905bd50@martinjd>

> Does this damn 40 year olds?  Does this damn women?

You said you'd do it. I felt strongly enough that you shouldn't that I used
that word.

>
>  >I believe in absolute standards - good enough for the combat area is the
>  >same for everyone, and yes, more men than women are. That's reality. But
if
>  >someone is good enough and actually wants to be there, then they have
the
>  >right to be.
>
> There is no right to be in the military.

Okay. "I believe that people have the basic right to self-determination. If
the military exists and some people want to be in it, they have the right to
try to meet its absolute standards and if they do, to be accepted. IE the
right not to be debarred from service on the grounds of a generalization."

Is that better?


>
> And good heavens, I agree.  But joining the army is not the same.  The
army
> needs people it can definitely train now, that it can depend on to be able
to
> do certain things now, and that are tough enough to get it done now.  Most
> women don't meet some of those criteria, and bringing in large numbers of
> them in the hope that a few will rise to what is required is the same as
> bringing in a large number of 40 year olds in the hope that some of them
will
> rise to what is required.  Whatever the gain here and there, the effort
> overall is counter-productive.

I don't really disagree. But you said you're remove all of them and their
right to try to be what they want. I can't agree with that. I want effective
people in the military and anyone who isn't should be washed out. But I do
not belive that you can simply generalize a segment of the populace out of
the military, becuase I know that at least a proportion of them will be good
enough.

I notice that you're "done here" about the fleet thing. From where I'm
sitting, that seems to mean you've dismissed all the arguments I raised and
decided that you don't need to think about them. You still haven't
adequately explained what you mean to do about an enemy that won't give you
that pre-arranged setpiece. Or in any other "real war" situation either.

In fact, all you've actually said is "there will be a set-piece and I will
win it. All else is trivial".
Nice theory. Doesn't work, but it's nice.







From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 07:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 06:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Firearms in Vacumn
References: <20803.011715.6z8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3D4BD8C7.43D0D0AA@mindspring.com>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
>
> >>
> >> Do you still have any copies of The Model Rocketeer? Mine got lost a
> >> long time ago :-(
> >
> > I think so, I'll have a look next time I'm cleaning that part of the garage.
> > Anything in particular
> > or do you want that article on underwater launches?
> 
> Well, I'd like to have a set of the silly things, or at least a decent
> scan of them.
> 

Leonard, I don't mind scanning a few articles, but we're talking YEARS of issues(14 IIRC). I don't
have the time to scan them all, nor the inclination to give them up. I will however look for that
article.

-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 07:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 06:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"
References: <11c.14d66d9e.2a7ce27f@aol.com> <005301c23ad6$a4ab5760$1d17bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3D4BD9A0.DAF7946B@mindspring.com>

MJ Dougherty wrote:> 
> This sort of thing happens in war all the time. War is a tapestry of misery
> and suffering, most of it needless.
> 
> People demand that we go to do what must be done ( or sometimes protest
> about it and refuse to see why it must be done) then condemn the military
> when innocents get hurt.
> 
> The answer? Learn to get along and abolish conflict.
> Until then, we must accept the paradox and try to do the best we can not to
> cause needless suffering. But we will, all the same.
> That's why this world sucks.

If only it did suck. Unfortunately it blows. :( 


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 07:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 06:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Bonabo Class Missile Frigate
References: <c1.24afabf6.2a7d092f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4BDD16.BDE2D5BF@mindspring.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> 
>  Incidentally, it goes without saying that these things kill TL E- ships
>  quite nicely.
> 
> TL E is very vulnerable.  The meson screens and nuke dampers are weak.
> 
> I think this is a better design:
> 
> 1000 ton hull
> J4
> M6
> Armor4
> 100 ton missile bay (holds 100 salvos)
> etc
>

FWIW, in MT it states in the referees manual p74 that the ROF fro a missile bay is 2, ROF for
turrets is 1. Each launcher in a turret holds one missile(3 missiles per b/r per turret in the
battery), 100 dton bays hold 100 missiles(50 missiles per b/r), 50 dton bays hold 50 missiles(25
missiles per b/r). 

Storage of additional missiles costs 0.1 Kl@, weight goes up if you want magazines capable of
storing nuclear or antimatter missiles. It states that a 100 ton bay used as a magazine can hold
13500 missiles, but not launch them, meaning the gunners have to hump 50 missiles out of storage
after two shots of a hundred ton bay.
I also only allow them to store HE missiles in bays. 

Which is why I use dedicated magazines for any military ship that needs more than one or two battery
rounds. And why the PC's in my campaign bought a 50 b/r magazine for each missile turret. Not that
they've ever fired all 50 b/r's. I think the most they ever used in one engagement is 6 b/r's.

-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 07:41:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 06:41:53 2002
Subject: [TML] damning (OT)
Message-ID: <191.ae4ea8c.2a7d3751@aol.com>

 >>  >Yeah, and I've seen human beings who were skilled and competent and
 >>  >determined and motivated and just plain better than me being kept down
 >>  >because they were born female. You can't damn half the human race on a
 >>  >generality.
 >>
 >> "Damn"?
 >
 >Condemn to medicrity, to second-class citizenship, to be denied things that
 >they want for arbitrary reasons, despite their determination, talent and
 >potential.
 >
 >What you seem to want to do is to set limits for people.

I'm not the one setting them.

The Army (and by Army I mean all the branches) generally refuses to enlist 
any 40 year old male (unless they're a chaplain or a doctor).  Are there some 
40 year old males who could do just fine in the Army?  Yes.  Does refusing 
them entry condemn them to mediocrity, to second-class citizenship?  No.  
Does it limit their potential despite their determination and talent?  Yes, 
but there are other avenues for determination and talent.  Why does the Army 
do this?  Because 40 year olds, as a whole, have sufficient problems that the 
Army knows it will lose more in attempting to incorporate them than it will 
gain.

The Army's job is not to help people gain their potential, realize all their 
talents, grant citizenship or status, or provide a career track.  It is to 
wage war.  The large numbers of women who cannot measure up physically to the 
task, who become pregnant at sea and are shipped home leaving others to do 
their work, who load up the ranks as single mothers who are undeployable, 
outweigh the contributions of those women who perform as needed.  The only 
reason this has gone on for as long as it has is because the word has come 
down the chain:  "You will make this work.  There will be no problems."  But 
there are problems, serious problems with performance, reliability, 
deployability, and discipline, and to deny it is a disservice to the defense 
of the U.S.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 07:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 06:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] System Gen Help
Message-ID: <c9.261a11c4.2a7d38e2@aol.com>

 >> I am doing an extended system generation.  I rolled
 >> for #6 to be the max orbit.  I also rolled for 2
 >> captured planets.  One is in orbit 6.3 and the other
 >> is in 6.0
 >> 
 >> Orbit 6 and 5 are both SGG's.  4 is the mainworld and
 >> the habitable zone.
 >> 
 >> Is this legitimate?  Or do I need to move the captured
 >> planet in orbit 6.0 to somewhere else.
 >
 >I don't know of any written rule to cover this (someone speak  up
 >if they know of one)

Book six says to place captured planets where you roll them, in disregard of 
any other pre-existing system feature.  Makes sense.

If a captured planet is in a gas giant's orbit though then it should become a 
moon or impact the gas giant eventually, or perhaps eventually be thrown out 
of orbit away from or towards the star.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 07:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 06:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <26.2ba24f20.2a7d3a88@aol.com>

 >> >Has anyone noted the set up with regards to the number of starports that
 >>  >can produce starships versus those that can only builld system ships?
 And
 >>  >to make matters worse, there aren't that many high tech star ports
 around
 >>
 >> I have.  It does make a big difference, doesn't it?  "If my ships are
 cheaper
 >> I'll be able to build more of them!"  No you can't.
 >
 >
 >See above comment that HG/TCS does not adequately provide a realistic naval
 >warfare system. But it is a cool game.

How does one create a "realistic warfare system" with technology that doesn't 
actually exist?  If a given system is simply consistent and workable then 
that should provide many opportunities.  Yes, it is a cool game.  Now if I 
could just get someone to play ....

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] damning (OT)
References: <191.ae4ea8c.2a7d3751@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001001c23af8$d8a53000$bf10bd50@martinjd>

>  >
>  >What you seem to want to do is to set limits for people.
>
> I'm not the one setting them.

You said you'd remove all females from the services. How's that different
from setting a limit?

> The Army's job is not to help people gain their potential, realize all
their
> talents, grant citizenship or status, or provide a career track.

Never said it was.

>It is to
> wage war.

Yes.

>The large numbers of women who cannot measure up physically to the
> task, who become pregnant at sea and are shipped home leaving others to do
> their work, who load up the ranks as single mothers who are undeployable,
> outweigh the contributions of those women who perform as needed.

Perhaps. So we need a better system, better screening. We also need to get
rid of the men who join up and then smuggle drugs across the Canadian border
in their trucks, and all the others who don't come up to scratch. But once
you start dismissing whole segements of the population on arbitary
distinctions then you deny people the opportunity to be the best. Heck, the
potential savior of our nation (s) could be even now be being turned away at
a recruiting station because she's a girl.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"
References: <11c.14d66d9e.2a7ce27f@aol.com> <005301c23ad6$a4ab5760$1d17bd50@martinjd> <3D4BD9A0.DAF7946B@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c23af9$02c7a020$bf10bd50@martinjd>

> >
> > The answer? Learn to get along and abolish conflict.
> > Until then, we must accept the paradox and try to do the best we can not
to
> > cause needless suffering. But we will, all the same.
> > That's why this world sucks.
>
> If only it did suck. Unfortunately it blows.


And sometimes makes strange inexplicable grinding sounds like a damaged
washing machine. But it's the one we got...



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <26.2ba24f20.2a7d3a88@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002e01c23afa$280d7200$bf10bd50@martinjd>

>  >
>  >See above comment that HG/TCS does not adequately provide a realistic
naval
>  >warfare system. But it is a cool game.
>
> How does one create a "realistic warfare system" with technology that
doesn't
> actually exist?  If a given system is simply consistent and workable then
> that should provide many opportunities.  Yes, it is a cool game.  Now if I
> could just get someone to play ....

Rephrasing... TCS/HG does not create an environment that I can reconcile
with a believable setting.

As a naval analyst of sorts I can look at your HG/TCS setup from the point
of view of a real war and say "that's going to come apart very quickly".
That's the thing about wargames... they're not about warfighting, they're
about winning within the constraints of the game and rules.

That's fine, but when you try to apply the conclusions from TCS/HG to the
Traveller universe, it does not create a believable setting.

To put that another way, if the Imperium simply said "we'll build a
battle-only fleet. Any conflict will be won in a decisive clash and all else
is trivial" then they'd not be there in Year 100, let alone 1100.





From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] damning (OT)
References: <191.ae4ea8c.2a7d3751@aol.com> <001001c23af8$d8a53000$bf10bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <003801c23afa$49145720$bf10bd50@martinjd>

This has gone on too long, and too far off-topic. 

I'm unilaterally dropping the discussion in the interests of bandwidth.



Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-to-the-Masses
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/





From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The IN in the OTU
Message-ID: <003901c23afa$8f883aa0$bf10bd50@martinjd>

Maybe worth mentioning at this point that all T20 products operate from the
standpoint that fighters are trivial things designed for traffic control,
screening and escort duty. Big ships fight and kill big ships, with the
occasional funky exception.



Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-to-the-Masses
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <200208031427.LZC00036@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Douglas E. Berry"
>1. Are you nuts?
 I'm not hardcore, I'm stupid.

>2. Really nuts?
 You bet!

>3. Can you lie perfectly still while an enemy soldier 
>urinates on you?

Gee, and I thought that this only happened to me!

>4. As in #4, but it is a National Guardsman during a 
>training mission.

No, it was two scouts from the 187th.

>5. Do you stand and remove your hat when you hear GnySgt 
>Carlos Hathcock mentioned?

Yes.
>6. Do you believe in your heart of hearts that there is no 
>such thing as friendly artillery?

I don't trust tac air, either.

>7. When walking in open areas, do you automatically check 
>sight lines and exfil routes?

When my daughter and I walk in the woods in a new place, I 
ask her to tell me where the natural lines of drift are - 
then we don't walk there.

>8. Do you refer to your wife as your spotter?
No, that's my daughter.

>9. Do you/Did you make every target at 300 meters but miss 
>the 50 meter ones?

Yes..  and there's an odd area for me at 700 to 800 meters 
where I get iffy - then I'm OK out to 1200.

>10. We mean it, are you *really* nuts?
You should ask the people I served with.

________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:29:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:29:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re: max hull size
Message-ID: <200208031428.LZC00116@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Matthew Bond says
>Briefly?
>
>When did MT come out? '86 wasn't it? Thats 6 years. HG1 was 
>only out for a year or so. HG1 was published in '79 and HG2 
>in '80.

I'm sorry - I meant HG1 was out briefly.  I think it may have 
been as short as six months.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Fighter Jockettes
Message-ID: <8b.1bef55bd.2a7d449c@aol.com>

>More than a theory actually.  The number of women being trained 
>as fighter pilots continues to climb, and there are many predictions 
>that the number of female fighter pilots will surpass the number of 
>male fighter pilots in not all that many years.  Women in general 
>are shorter, lighter, and have better resistance to g forces (ie they 
>don't black out as quickly) all of which are very useful qualities in 
>modern fighter aircraft. 


The Soviets used women as fighter pilots (and tank crew, and snipers, and 
other things) during WWII and had no complaints. 

One of my favorite anecdotes is the German pilot who was shot down after a 
long "knights of the air"-style duel near an airfield in late 42 or early 43. 
He parachuted safely ot the ground, was rounded up by security, and demanded 
to meet the pilot who had shot him down so he could shake "his" hand. 
According to witnesses he did not believe it when introduced to her, and only 
after she described the fight to him in detail ("You did X, so then I 
side-slipped right and did Y") did he come to attention and salute. Frank 
Chadwick told me he once saw a painting of the scene showing a 
crestfallen-looking German staring at the beaming Soviet woman using her 
hands to re-create the fight, in the style of pilots everywhere and 
every-time.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <200208031448.LZD00692@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Flykiller says
>if paratroopers land nearby then I think it becomes clear 
>that what your MOS is and what your actual job is are two 
>different things.  

This occurs far less often than you think -- and when it 
does, the strategic effects are far smaller and last far 
shorter than is commonly believed.  Combat elements that land 
in the enemy's rear will make mincemeat of non-combat units 
even if the defenders are men.  And the defender's combat 
units will be attracted to the incursion rather quickly.

If one side has a tech level advantage, and numeric 
superiority, I think that it will not happen to the superior 
side at all.

________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <200208031451.LZD00838@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

MJ Dougherty says
>Hey, everyone, he invoked Clif!
>
>Clif has been Invoked!

Hey!  Don't do that!  That's a second invocation!  You know 
what happens if you do it three times!
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 08:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 07:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
Message-ID: <200208031455.LZD00963@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

john.groth says
>Passive sensors IRL would have ranges in space significanly 
>better than those of active sensors such as radar.
>

I would point out, however, that all such reliance on 
technology may be subject to local conditions.  I managed to 
approach within 50 meters of consultants using their thermal 
pointer (something that detects people moving within 500 
meters of an armored vehicle - I think it's installed on the 
Challenger tank).

Mind you, I was using an umbrella to crawl behind.  They 
couldn't spot me visually, either.  I took a page from German 
tactics in camouflage.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 09:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 08:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <19b.65b1e1c.2a7d49d4@aol.com>

 >Okay. The Zhos have thrown large numbers of light cruisers and "merchant
 >raiders" (armed merchant ships posing as legitimate traffic) across the
 >border and are raiding lightly defended ports, shooting up your logistics
 >train and the Sector Duke is yelling at you that dozens of world governments
 >are yelling at HIM for protection. Many of these raids are by ships in the
 >light or even heavy cruiser class. Some sightings mention capital ships and
 >small task groups. They've probably got support ships out there somewhere
 >too.

Ah, a general overall fleet attack.  You describe a situation some weeks 
after it has begun.  I think my scouts would give me a more accurate picture, 
and sooner.  I will send a message to Deneb to send a fleet.

What is the status of his fleet at Cipango and Cronor?  If he has that much 
out in my areas, then his central fleet is weakened.  If I can put two task 
forces each on Cipango and maybe Ninjar then _his_ logistics train will be 
cut entirely, and they'll provide a welcoming committee to any Zhodie ships 
that straggle back home looking for support.  Further I'll send the fleet 
raider task force to shoot up whatever they can in other worlds in that area. 
 Two can play this game, only I'll do it with concentrated task forces.  Let 
the consule at Cronor yell at _his_ commander:  "There are a thousand 
frigates at Querion!  Do something!"

I'll leave Jewell exposed and do that.  Then I'll send out some of my task 
forces individually to locate and mop up these isolated forces, using an 
extensive scout network to relay information on their activities and ship 
counts.  I'll plot their courses and attempt to determine where they want to 
go.  Not that this would be hard to guess anyway -- I'm sure the Zhodies will 
bypass Pscias and go for Rethe if they can.

 >Zho fleet elements have struck at weak targets on the border, but you don't
 >know it they retired afterward or are advancing.

Assume they're advancing.

 >Your intelligence is a mess of vessel reports,

This can be sorted out.  It may take a few hours, but I'm sure my staff is 
efficient.

 >and while the attacks on
 >minor worlds are trivial from a military standpoint, those are imperial
 >citizens being shot up.

Yes.  They will have to wait.  Soon it will be the Zhodies turn to be shot up.

 >Some border  worlds (again, soft targets) have been
 >assaulted by ground forces and may now be under occupation. The sector duke
 >wants those worlds retaken. He wants the raids stopped.

Everything in due time.  The Duke will have to be a big boy.  And likely he 
is.  When the Zhodie fleet has been rolled back, I'll send in the troop 
transports.  Not until then.

You're trying to make me panic.  I won't.  If the Zhodies have scattered a 
lot of their fleet through my sector then I'll roll them up one at a time 
with my task forces at no risk to myself.  It'll take a while, but it will be 
done.  Zhodane is mostly at tech 14, and tech 14 wallows in the mud against 
tech 15.  I've tried every possible Zhodie fleet combination against the 
Spinward Marches fleet that I can think of, pitting 7 AE worlds against what 
Mora and Trin can build, and his only chance is to stick together.

Instead, I will make the Zhodies panic.  In 500 years the Imperium has never 
taken offensive action against the Zhodane.  The Imperium has always reacted, 
defended, retreated, lost worlds.  I'll make the Zhodies defend and react to 
me.  I will cut their lines, sit astride their repair facilities, and put 
capital ships where they have not been for 500 years, forcing the Zhodies to 
come to me.  Riverland and Cronor used to be Imperial.  I will have them 
back.  When the Imperial Fleet reinforcements arrive, I just might get them.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 09:07:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 08:07:04 2002
Subject: [TML] 40-year olds
Message-ID: <200208031505.LZD01427@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Flykiller says
>Why does the Army do this?  Because 40 year olds, as a 
>whole, have sufficient problems that the Army knows it will 
>lose more in attempting to incorporate them than it will 
>gain.

No, no, no.  The reason the Army won't enlist you is because 
the "useful lifetime" of the older soldier is shorter.  Not 
because you can't pass the PT test.  Training is an expense - 
and once they spend the money, they expect a useful time 
period after that, including reserve time.

Most Delta Force soldiers are between the ages of 35 and 40.  
The Army does not have a problem with age as it pertains to 
performance.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 09:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 08:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <63.f7e6699.2a7d4cf9@aol.com>

 >Modern war - 4th generation war - is fought in the living rooms of the
 >populace. Manipulating them is one of the keys to victory. Give them enough
 >uncountered threats, enough needless deaths, and they'll be demanding peace.

And that will work in my favor, as much of the Spinward Population lives in 
the highly protected worlds of Trin, Mora, Glisten, Rhylanor, and Palique, 
and the main fleet is very close by to Rethe, Louzy, Lunion, Jewell, and 
Vilis.  That's almost half of the Spinward Marches on those planets alone.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 09:16:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sat Aug  3 08:16:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Lawyers (was: re:  sword vs shotgun)
In-Reply-To: <20020803025421.23615.36452.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020803025421.23615.36452.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <dosnku0ivbte9spq255ucevkii8dj0vp8s@4ax.com>

On Fri, 02 Aug 2002 19:54:21 -0700, "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
wrote:

>"Glenn M. Goffin" says
>>I have on many occasions in my career as a lawyer

>Often, I have marvelled at how some of the more intelligent 
>people I have met (successful intelligent people, that is) 
>have a carefully selected lawyer and a carefully selected 
>accountant.

>Most Traveller parties need a full time lawyer - but how many 
>have you seen with one? 

How many lawyers can practice on every planet the party will find itself on
- and how many parties would be able to afford a lawyer that could?

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 09:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 08:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lawyers (was: re:  sword vs shotgun)
Message-ID: <200208031521.LZD02133@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Jeff Zeitlin says
>How many lawyers can practice on every planet the party will 
>find itself on - and how many parties would be able to 
>afford a lawyer that could?
>

It's the end of the shift, and the prisoners shuffle up the 
tunnel, returning to the elevator that brought them down to 
the working face eighteen hours ago.

Near the end of the column of hapless men, John says, "Oh, 
Jeff?  Remind me again about how you didn't think that we 
could afford a lawyer to handle that mercenary contract?"

A guard shouts, "Quiet in the ranks!"
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 09:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 08:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <98.29de0498.2a7d4f0e@aol.com>

 >You're thniking of everything in terms of a mapboard and counters. I'm
 >discussing warfare.

I'm thinking in terms of what the actually constructed vessels will do 
according to the rules, yes.  You are thinking in terms of imagining what you 
think various effects will be.  I'll take the hardware -- such as it is -- 
and I'll have the last word.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 09:23:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 08:23:55 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <19b.65b1e1c.2a7d49d4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <005601c23b03$2b455560$bf10bd50@martinjd>

>
> Ah, a general overall fleet attack.  You describe a situation some weeks
> after it has begun.  I think my scouts would give me a more accurate
picture,
> and sooner.  I will send a message to Deneb to send a fleet.

No, just raiders and "crumbling". No major fleet movements just yet. Though
attempts have been made to look like the fleet is advancing....

>
> What is the status of his fleet at Cipango and Cronor?

Still there.

>If he has that much
> out in my areas, then his central fleet is weakened.  If I can put two
task
> forces each on Cipango and maybe Ninjar then _his_ logistics train will be
> cut entirely, and they'll provide a welcoming committee to any Zhodie
ships
> that straggle back home looking for support.

He's got cruiers and light commerce raiders in your space for the most part.
No fleet. Now his fleet can mass against your cutoff task forces, and smash
them with local superiority.

F>urther I'll send the fleet
> raider task force to shoot up whatever they can in other worlds in that
area.
>  Two can play this game, only I'll do it with concentrated task forces.
Let
> the consule at Cronor yell at _his_ commander:  "There are a thousand
> frigates at Querion!  Do something!"

You have a fleet raider task force? I thought you just had battleships. And
of course he can commit his fleet (held back after the initial deception
raid) against your raiders, or the cutoff squadrons. No fear of not being
able to find them, since they're concentrated and hitting predicatble
targets.

>
> I'll leave Jewell exposed and do that.  Then I'll send out some of my task
> forces individually to locate and mop up these isolated forces, using an
> extensive scout network to relay information on their activities and ship
> counts.

Yopu'll disperse your fleet to chase moving ghosts. Yes please.

>I'll plot their courses and attempt to determine where they want to
> go.  Not that this would be hard to guess anyway -- I'm sure the Zhodies
will
> bypass Pscias and go for Rethe if they can.

Part of the trick in commerce raiding is to move semi-randomly.

>
>  >Zho fleet elements have struck at weak targets on the border, but you
don't
>  >know it they retired afterward or are advancing.
>
> Assume they're advancing.

Excellent.

>
>  >Your intelligence is a mess of vessel reports,
>
> This can be sorted out.  It may take a few hours, but I'm sure my staff is
> efficient.

No, I mean that there are similar vessels all over the place, dissimilar
ones too, your mass of scouts is losing ships and your intelligence is, as I
said, a mess. So is theirs, of course, but the point is that you don't know
where their fleet is.

>
>  >and while the attacks on
>  >minor worlds are trivial from a military standpoint, those are imperial
>  >citizens being shot up.
>
> Yes.  They will have to wait.  Soon it will be the Zhodies turn to be shot
up.

You'll ignore the nobles and the people shouting for something to be done?
Well, you can try. But what military has not been constrained by poitcal
pressure from within?
>
>  >Some border  worlds (again, soft targets) have been
>  >assaulted by ground forces and may now be under occupation. The sector
duke
>  >wants those worlds retaken. He wants the raids stopped.
>
> Everything in due time.  The Duke will have to be a big boy. And likely he
> is.  When the Zhodie fleet has been rolled back, I'll send in the troop
> transports.  Not until then.

I think thus pretty much shows me what I wanted to know. You're considering
the military dimension only here.

>
> You're trying to make me panic.  I won't.  If the Zhodies have scattered a
> lot of their fleet through my sector

No, they've sent their raider forces plus some old battleships trying to
look like a major force. Their fleet never actually advcanced, just raided
and fell back. It's rearmed and heading for your task forces I mentioned
above.

>then I'll roll them up one at a time
> with my task forces at no risk to myself.

See above. You'll chase them about with superior forces, weakening your main
fleet. You'll catch and kill some of them, but where's their main fleet?

>It'll take a while, but it will be
> done.  Zhodane is mostly at tech 14, and tech 14 wallows in the mud
against
> tech 15.  I've tried every possible Zhodie fleet combination against the
> Spinward Marches fleet that I can think of, pitting 7 AE worlds against
what
> Mora and Trin can build, and his only chance is to stick together.
>
> Instead, I will make the Zhodies panic.  In 500 years the Imperium has
never
> taken offensive action against the Zhodane.  The Imperium has always
reacted,
> defended, retreated, lost worlds.  I'll make the Zhodies defend and react
to
> me.  I will cut their lines, sit astride their repair facilities, and put
> capital ships where they have not been for 500 years, forcing the Zhodies
to
> come to me.  Riverland and Cronor used to be Imperial.  I will have them
> back.  When the Imperial Fleet reinforcements arrive, I just might get
them.

You'll plunge into their space and attack? That's the thing that'll get you
the decisive action you wanted. Of course, their fleet was concentrated
after the initial raids, because I knew you wanted a decisive action and
this was the best way to get it. So now you're at the end of your supply
line, fighting his fleet *and* his local forces, with political problems and
logistics raiding in your rear.

Actually, I'd probably do the same. Point is, it's not a great position to
be in, though it does get you the initiative.

My point, though, is that you have a wargamer's contempt for political
issues and "intangible compplicaitons". If the sector Duke can't afford to
ignore politicval pressure, he'll lean on you, and you'll end up being
forced to do things you don't want. This is the reality of strategy - it's
only partially military.

Your model works fine in isolation, but IMO it falls down in the face of the
sort of thing that happens in real wars - friction, political necessity etc.

In other words, we're talking about two entirely different situations. I'm
discussing defending a hypothetical sector from equally hypothetical (but
real for the purposes of the exercise) interstellar fleets, and you're
playing High Guard.

I don't think we can accept one another's assumptions, so the exercise is
pointless..







From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 09:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 08:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <73.238e7d1c.2a7d54c4@aol.com>

 >The feint/outfeint is one of the risks of war. I may be willing to fight
 >your six with mine, and trust to my ships and crews to win it for me

So we're down from achieving local superiority with feints to trusting your 
ships.

 >As to a dumb enemy... fair comment. I've heard the "enemy" make a number of
 >sweeping pronounbcements of the "oh, I'd just" that make me confident that
 >once reality intruded, friction would render this enemy less capable than he
 >thinks.

Well, I'd just have to see that I have twelve ships and a nearby repair base 
to your six exposed, and I'd just have to struggle along making the best of 
it.

In truth, I don't know what you mean by "feint".  HG doesn't seem to have 
much scope for maneuver -- the fleets are just there, at long or short range. 
 If you mean by jumping out and then jumping back then I can see that, but 
does the book say whether or not you can determine jump distance and 
direction from watching the (I'm sure) considerable EM signature of the jump? 
 I know it doesn't in 2 or 5 or 6, or what navigation times are, or anything.

The fact of the matter is that if a fleet tries to be strong everywhere it 
will be weak everywhere, and the enemy will be able to concentrate and just 
roll on in.  Gathering up the scattered fleet to face this concentration 
would take months, and in the meantime the invader would wander around 
unchecked.  It seems to me that whether the defender is scattered or 
concentrated the invader has the advantage in either circumstance, and 
there's nothing to be done about except to attempt to close or to invade 
_him_.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes
In-Reply-To: <4957.64.8.3.28.1028349006.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <4957.64.8.3.28.1028349006.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <m37kj7exgi.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

hal@buffnet.net writes:
> 
> In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head tax" or does it
> charge an income tax on its citizens for its Imperial Budget
> requirements?  In short, if the Imperial government taxes 10% of a
> Gross Planetary Product, then it would in essence be an income tax.
> If it charges a flat 500 CR per person on a planet, then it is a
> head tax.  Which is it?

I like a head tax, but that's ;ause I like em in real life as well.  

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Modern art is what happens when painters stop looking at girls and
persuade themselves that they have a better idea.    --John Ciardi

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOELACEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOELACEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <m33ctvexcp.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net> writes:
> 
> > But I'm certainly no expert on gender differences.
> 
> To paraphrase my late father, no man is.

Or can reasonably hope to be...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Every man, woman, and responsible child has a natural, fundamental,
and inalienable human, individual, civil, and Constitutional right
(within the limits of the Non-Aggression Principle) to obtain, own,
and carry, openly or concealed, any weapon--handgun, shotgun, rifle,
machinegun, anything--any time, anywhere, without asking anyone's
permission.                                       --L. Neil Smith

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
Message-ID: <F4088vi4IdT87AtHRip00025342@hotmail.com>

From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>

    "Just a reminder that there's stuff on the Citizens website."


Sir,

     Okay, I'll bite, you pseudo-spammed [  8^)  ] us with three messages 
about the CotI website so it must be important...
     What's the big announcement/product release/article/whatever that's 
been posted over there?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in traveller)
In-Reply-To: <199.acd8aa3.2a7cea81@aol.com>
References: <199.acd8aa3.2a7cea81@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3y9bndi8f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
>
> > That kind of setup might be cheap when it came to starship life
> > support costs, but I imagine the impact on the soldiers' psyches
> > would be extreme.
> 
> Not if they were only asleep during jumps.  "Good morning, we're
> passing through Regina and the captain decided you should all spend
> some money there for a few days."  And soldiers won't be spending
> years on ships anyway--they'll only be there when in transport.
> Kind of hard to practice armored maneuvers on the mess deck.

No, 'cause they'd still not get the full rest needed.  My
greatgrandfather and grandfather took well over a month to return to
the US after WWI & WWII; my father was back in college in 48 or so
hours after his time in Vietnam.  Granted, that's _some_ rest time,
but it's not nearly enough.  You don't find as much PTSD in fellows
who got to slowly make their way back home, adjust to the new reality
&c.; you find quite a lot in guys who are plucked up from one
situation and dropped in another.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Virtues foster one another; so too, vices.  Bad English kills trees,
consumes energy, and befouls the Earth.  Good English renews it.
                                  --The Underground Grammarian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <200208031455.LZD00963@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208031455.LZD00963@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <m3u1mbdi0l.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:
> 
> Mind you, I was using an umbrella to crawl behind.  They couldn't
> spot me visually, either.  I took a page from German tactics in
> camouflage.

Oh, so you _weren't_ wearing a bright blue coat and bright red pants?
However did you retain your lan?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Gun control: the theory that a woman found raped and strangled in an
alley is morally superior to a woman explaining why her attacker got a
fatal bullet wound.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <3D4C0537.C9A63C5E@ameritech.net>

> From: Flykiller@aol.com
> Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 03:57:07 EDT
>
> I'm afraid we've been talking two different systems.  I've been 
> talking CT HG1, but everyone seems to be talking about something 
> else.  CT HG1 only distinguishes between hull sizes on to-hit 
> adjustments, not hull types. 

The hull type is a roll to penetrate defence. It's not a to hit 
modifier.

> I'm afraid I don't know HG2, or for that matter any of the others, 
> and it seems HG1 has been deprecated.

HG2 is also for CT. It replaced HG1 in 1980 (one year after the 
introduction of HG1) and is considered the definitive version.

Hey list mom is this in the faq?

> Yeah, see in HG1 a factor 9 meson cannot penetrate any meson
> screen of 3 or higher, and any capital ship is going to have 
> meson screen 9.

It's the same in HG2.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
In-Reply-To: <sd495bcc.012@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
References: <sd495bcc.012@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
Message-ID: <02080118161500.01437@linux>

On Thursday 01 August 2002 04:03 pm, you wrote:
> Would a world that has 80% of its surface covered by water, a dense
> nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, and one moon that is large enough to exert a
> tidal effect tend to be more or less climatically active? Assume
> moderate (terran-normal) vulcanism and a fairly non-polluting early TL
> aqua/agricultural society. Also assume standard polar ice caps and
> rotation around 20 deg. off the plane of the ecliptic. I'll welcome any
> and all comments...

	It seems to me that axial tilt would be of greatest concern or possibly land 
distributions and the resulting distribution of albedoes not to mention 
affecting wind/ocean currents.
	Aren't there reasonable tools on the net for running a simulation of this?
Can the old program Simearth be used to test world setups? If not then maybe 
someone could be kind enough to fill this gap in ref tools ala starform. And 
could that someone make it compile/run under linux please?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:34:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:34:05 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <d7.1b1aa813.2a792099@aol.com>
References: <d7.1b1aa813.2a792099@aol.com>
Message-ID: <02080119251701.01437@linux>

>
> I have to say I'm in favor of the "simple kludge".  this is, after all, a
> fantasy role-playing game.  most of the technology being discussed doesn't
> exist and isn't even on the horizon.  I don't think "realism" carries much
> weight in such an environment.  you're supposed to adventure, not engineer.

	I agree with you that this is a RPG and realism doesn't carry much weight 
really...so why not play dnd instead?
	To be honest, I really don't 'play' the game but I like to tinker with it as 
a simulation and thus I like to try to make it more accurate. That is how I 
enjoy Traveller. I know that many aspects of it have no analog in the real 
world, but the aspects that do match, should match the RW as close as is 
possible if it can be done without sacrificng playability.
	To do otherwise would to make   many threads on the TML as a pile of 
steaming jgdkkf . To me, this is no different than arguing about guass gun 
muzzle velocities or the best way of disposing of bodies.
	Sorry...this is how I am.

btw.......Imperial nobles IMHO can be modelled after the Catholic Church of 
the middle ages. 
	Pope=Emperor
	Bishops, Arch-Bishops, Cardinals...etc= Various high nobles
	fathers,priests ...etc= lower nobles
The held massive amounts of power without holding the reigns of any single 
country. Yet no king would dare go against the Pope in those days.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:34:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:34:55 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <001601c238a9$261f2900$7919bd50@martinjd>
References: <200207311448.LTP02792@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <001601c238a9$261f2900$7919bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <02080120122002.01437@linux>

> If you're scrambling to put together some kind of resistance to an attack,
> then immense-risk-of-death is acceptable to patriotic volunteers because
> they see it as the only way to win. If you're building a fleet in case you
> have to fight, then survivability is a requisite.
>
	Why not just determine if youd get volunteers using morale rules from 
striker or mt ref's companion (same  as each other really)?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
In-Reply-To: <F4088vi4IdT87AtHRip00025342@hotmail.com>
References: <F4088vi4IdT87AtHRip00025342@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <200208031245370897.51623A1B@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

>From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
>
>    "Just a reminder that there's stuff on the Citizens website."
>
>
>Sir,
>
>     Okay, I'll bite, you pseudo-spammed [  8^)  ] us with three messages 
>about the CotI website so it must be important...
>     What's the big announcement/product release/article/whatever that's 
>been posted over there?

I think he is just trying to draw attention to the new Traveller webzine we=
 have opened, rather than anything specific. We are looking for writers and=
 of course readers! It's free, and we are paying for article submissions=
 that are accepted for publication.

BTW, if anyone is attending GenCon this year, be sure to stop by the QLI=
 booth (#841). Marc will be there as our guest and we'll have copies of T20=
 Lite fresh off the presses!

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:46:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:46:55 2002
Subject: [TML] Trading aircraft (and men) for ships
In-Reply-To: <20020801182132.8dc5803e76f94f1f98d7b72b3352174c.in@keywest.kennett.net>
References: <20020801182132.8dc5803e76f94f1f98d7b72b3352174c.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <02080312521500.00601@linux>

>
> FYI, the Brewster Buffalo has such a bad reputation because of its poor
> combat performance against the Japanese.  Yet we are talking about the same
> fighter that managed to beat the Grummen Wildcat in the US Navy's
> competition for a carrier fighter just before World War 2.  If Brewster had
> not proven so inept in actually building and upgrading the fighter, then we
> would be seeing Buffalos tangling with Zeros at Midway....
>

The Finns LOVED the Buffalo. They thought it did a wonderful job against the 
enemy. Brewster just went overboard in trying to improve it by adding more 
weapons and armour than it had power to carry. Also at that time our fighter 
tactics were poor while Japan had been parctising in China since 1937
The Zero was not that great of a plane. WEak guns and no armour. Its ailerons 
locked solid at over 220 mph. Great in a turning fight but lousy in anything 
else.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 10:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 09:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] PLSS duration
Message-ID: <3816d337dc90.37dc903816d3@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Monday, July 29, 2002 11:06 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] PLSS duration

> In mail you write:
> 
> > shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
> >> 
> >> The need to defecate is likely to be the limit.  Short of nanotech,
> >> dealing with that in a suit is a real pain.  Stay in the suit too
> >> long and you have to deal with a *nasty* case of diaper rash.
> >
> > Well, you could have a water-spray which cleans one--the water runs
> > down the legs and is vented from the feet.  Spray enough and 
> you'd be
> > clean.  I'll grant it'd take some getting used to, but if the
> > alternative is being toasted, I think most will take it.
> 
> "enough" is apt to be a lot more water than you can afford to 
> vent. And
> trust me, you *will* have stuff left behind on the way down. 
> 
> And you are assuming gravity, as well.

I wonder if a sort of mini-airlock could be devised to deal with the 
issue.  Although sitting in regular chairs might be a problem.... ;-)




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Junk in space
Message-ID: <3865583847de.3847de386558@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
Date: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 3:49 am
Subject: Re: [TML] Junk in space

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
> > On the other hand, a 2 cm chunk of something is going to do more
> > than leave a dent.
> 
> Such a chunk probably has a kinetic energy of about 1 MJ at best, and
> very likely is travelling at substantially less than the speed of
> sound in starship hull material.
> 
> I think "make a dent" would be about right.  If one ever hit, 
> which it
> wouldn't unless the sensors were crippled.

Why am I reminded of the "ravioli railgun" post of several years ago?  
(I'd repost it again, except that it's on one of my computers back 
Stateside....)

IIRC, one of our Scandinavian list members also has it archived.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Check Your Landgrabs!
Message-ID: <3D4C1132.3C2572D6@mail.cswnet.com>

Just floated over to the CotI site and looked up
their version of the Spinward Marches. Arba's
population has gone from 550 to 100.

Everything else seems to be the same.

Those with landgrabs may want to check and see if 
there are any significant changes. I'd be interested
to know if anyone else's landgrab systems got altered
significantly.

Anyone now what T20's historical time frame is, if
it has one?

Now I'm thinking. Moving Nimmi Shis away from the
starport turns out to have been good planing. We
can waste the town, leave downport intact, and
have enough population left to cover the new
population figure. Quite a few BM's will bite the
dust, but the Taylors and the Tacans will still
be around. If the history works out right, we
can blame it all on the Sword Worlders.

Course, that supposes that I would want to have it
that way. Since I live in CT land, I just may decide
to ignore this little bit.

CT Arba pop 600
BTC Arba pop 550
T20 Arba pop 100

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <20020803173031.AB7754508@mo130uhou.palm.net>

john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:
[snip]
>This and many more fine quotes may be found on Mark Urbin's Web site: 
>http://www.urbin.net/EWW/sigs/rpg-sigs.html

 Thanks for the plug!
When that page gets big enough to split up, Penguin Boy gets his own wing...
----------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:33:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:33:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Check Your Landgrabs!
In-Reply-To: <3D4C1132.3C2572D6@mail.cswnet.com>
References: <3D4C1132.3C2572D6@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <200208031332570059.518D8C96@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 8/3/2002 at 12:21 PM Roseberry wrote:

>Just floated over to the CotI site and looked up
>their version of the Spinward Marches. Arba's
>population has gone from 550 to 100.
>
>Everything else seems to be the same.
>
>Those with landgrabs may want to check and see if 
>there are any significant changes. I'd be interested
>to know if anyone else's landgrab systems got altered
>significantly.
>
>Anyone now what T20's historical time frame is, if
>it has one?

The data other than for Ley Sector may be off. I am still looking for a=
 good set of definative SEC files for that section of the website. If=
 anyone can point to me to some or has good copies based on the AotI data,=
 I would appreciate it!

The Ley Sector data is based on our upcoming material and is set around=
 year 1000.

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"
In-Reply-To: <005301c23ad6$a4ab5760$1d17bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <B971637A.67A12%listmom@travellercentral.com>

Please relate this to Traveller

Listmom


on 8/3/02 3:14 AM, MJ Dougherty at martinjd@globalnet.co.uk wrote:

>> 
>> I rest my case.
>> 
>> "It's Milosivic's fault we bombed a convoy of farmers!"
>> "It's Arafat's fault we bombed that apartment building!"
>> "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a convoy of inauguration representatives
> on
>> the open road!"
>> 
>> If I were to act with this level of disregard even in defense of my own
>> children, I'd be in jail.  McVeigh was right -- "collateral damage" covers
> a
>> multitude of sins.
> 
> This sort of thing happens in war all the time. War is a tapestry of misery
> and suffering, most of it needless.
> 
> People demand that we go to do what must be done ( or sometimes protest
> about it and refuse to see why it must be done) then condemn the military
> when innocents get hurt.
> 
> The answer? Learn to get along and abolish conflict.
> Until then, we must accept the paradox and try to do the best we can not to
> cause needless suffering. But we will, all the same.
> That's why this world sucks.

-- 
listmom@travellercentral.com
for list information see
http://lists.travellercentral.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:42:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:42:06 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <fc.1bc430d6.2a7d06b7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B97163D2.67A14%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/3/02 3:13 AM, Flykiller@aol.com at Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>> Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
>> big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.
> 
> What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other sensor systems
> you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?


Nothing says that mines need to be static, waiting for something to hit
them.  A mine could be nothing more than a large missile with high
acceleration and short range waiting for some ship to come into range.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <001401c23ae8$dcdeae40$0905bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <B97164B2.67A15%listmom@travellercentral.com>

Please relate this to Traveller or move it to TML-Chat


on 8/3/02 5:25 AM, MJ Dougherty at martinjd@globalnet.co.uk wrote:

>> circles around the vast majority of the females I've seen, no
> exaggeration.
> 
> On the flip side, two of my friends (female friends) are more determined and
> in absolute terms more capable than half the men in our martial arts class.
> They're better than many who hold higher grades. They'd be barred under your
> rules.
> 
>> that's not damning women, and that's not prejudice.
> 
> Deciding the fate of half the human race - pre-judging their capabilities -
> becuase of gender. Nah, that's notuing like prejudice.
> 
> Of course, the poor dears can't be expected to understand politics, manage
> an estate or run a business either. Any you know? they couldn't do it. Not
> until someone let them try.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

-- 
listmom@travellercentral.com
for list information see
http://lists.travellercentral.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Con Jose the World SF Con any Travellers going?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020801092023.45176588@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <200208010315.g713FgD09733@sun.ebtech.net>
Message-ID: <200208031757.g73Hv6x10235@sun.ebtech.net>

Actually Anne Murphy in publications is a friend of mine.
I'll be staying in the party hotel and working in the Hilton.

Let's try and do something.


> At 11:12 PM 7/31/2002 -500, you wrote:
> >Hi I'll be at Con Jose working the Coffeeklatches
> >
> >Anyone else planning on attending?
> 
> I'll be there, working publications.
> 
> >Maybe we could get together over a meal to talk Traveller.
> 
> It would be fun.  May I suggest that anyone attending ConJose subscribe to
> Travller in SF.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TravellerinSF/
> 
> So we can coordinate a meeting time and place.  If we want to do an actual
> dinner, I need to know how many people are coming. -- 
> 
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
> 
> "Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
> - Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] damning (OT) PLEASE STOP
In-Reply-To: <191.ae4ea8c.2a7d3751@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B971661B.67A21%listmom@travellercentral.com>

This whole discussion is both unrelated to Traveller and inflammatory.  If
you wish to continue it, please take it off the TML.  Move it to TML-chat,
whatever.  

Thank You,

Listmom



on 8/3/02 6:40 AM, Flykiller@aol.com at Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> I'm not the one setting them.
> 
> The Army (and by Army I mean all the branches) generally refuses to enlist
> any 40 year old male (unless they're a chaplain or a doctor).  Are there some

[snip]

> there are problems, serious problems with performance, reliability,
> deployability, and discipline, and to deny it is a disservice to the defense
> of the U.S.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

-- 
listmom@travellercentral.com
for list information see
http://lists.travellercentral.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Check Your Landgrabs!
Message-ID: <3D4C1760.CA00C331@mail.cswnet.com>

Hunter Gordon writes:
>The data other than for Ley Sector may be off. I am still looking for >a good set of definative SEC files for that section of the website. >If anyone can point to me to some or has good copies based on the >AotI data, I would appreciate it!

>The Ley Sector data is based on our upcoming material and is set >around year 1000.

Well shoot, if its gonna by year 1000 than I don't have to do anything.
Cool. Just a bunch of prospectors and LSP hangers on.
The LSP starport eventually deteriates to type E, then a new one 
gets built elsewhere by independant colonists around 1083-1084.
Yeah, I can go with that. Mahvelous!

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 11:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug  3 10:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
 traveller)
In-Reply-To: <m3y9bndi8f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <B97167AA.67A22%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/3/02 9:23 AM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> 
> No, 'cause they'd still not get the full rest needed.  My
> greatgrandfather and grandfather took well over a month to return to
> the US after WWI & WWII; my father was back in college in 48 or so
> hours after his time in Vietnam.  Granted, that's _some_ rest time,
> but it's not nearly enough.  You don't find as much PTSD in fellows
> who got to slowly make their way back home, adjust to the new reality
> &c.; you find quite a lot in guys who are plucked up from one
> situation and dropped in another.

While there is likely a connection between PTSD and rapid reintegration back
into 'normal' life, experts have also linked PSTD to the extensive use of
operant conditioning of soldiers that occurred after WWII.

What provisions does the Imperium make for combat veterans returning to
civilian life?  Are long voyages home sufficient?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: a believable starfaring navy?
Message-ID: <200208031922.g73JMGw03053@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
...
>> >cruiser before it closed and killed the carrier. Or....
>>
>>   Sadly, HG2 doesn't allow those sorts of complications, but
>> any of the hex-based Trav games make riders/carriers _much_
>> less attractive for precisely that reason.
>
>Agreed. This is why I believe that HG/TCS alone do not present a framework
>for creating a believable starfaring navy.

  You can abstract that - there was a thread on SCTA (a HG2 / 
TCS List:  ct-starships@yahoogroups.com ) about that this spring.

  Most carrier/rider solutions also entail reduced Jump efficiency 
due to refuelling, which TCS & 5FW only partly address.

  IIRC, Mr. Smith has a draft for in-system operational actions
up on the net (URL?), which should highlight the downsides of
low-G rider tenders (etc).

  Perhaps BL/BR can be mined for ideas on more purely tactical
limitations of tender dependent forces, such as the pure
excitement of cutting an entry too closely to an enemy force?

The rest of the rider debate is too well attested to merit re-flogging :>

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:28:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:28:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <200208031927.g73JRUw03653@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: sneadj@mindspring.com
>Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 22:16:45 -0700
>Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
...  
>However, Dresden is an amazingly clear cut case.  It was an act of 
>terror and vengeance easily as bad as anything the other side did 
>in it's bombing of civilian targets.

  Arguably it was also a strong message to Uncle Joe, although
I'm far from clear as to why we'd want to say "we're worse than
you" to _that_ regime.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lawyers
In-Reply-To: <20020803114546.E36724505@mo130uhou.palm.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803111851.4727ae50@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:45 AM 8/3/2002 +0000, you wrote:

>"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:
>[snip]
>>Most Traveller parties need a full time lawyer - but how many  
>>have you seen with one?  
>
>Even Doc Savage kept a lawyer in his group. :-)
>Useful for the high Admin skills too...

I played a lawyer in a Repo game.  Eneri Bitterman, Attorney-at-Large.  I
had poor combat skills, but excellent research and people skills.  When
we'd take a ship, I'd present the legal papers claiming the ship due to
loan default.

We had a blast.


Best line: "Hey!  This was a new suit!  Add it to our expenses!"
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:38:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:38:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
 traveller)
In-Reply-To: <m3y9bndi8f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <199.acd8aa3.2a7cea81@aol.com>
 <199.acd8aa3.2a7cea81@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803112050.478f7fe2@pop.mindspring.com>

At 10:23 AM 8/3/2002 -0600, you wrote:

>No, 'cause they'd still not get the full rest needed.  My
>greatgrandfather and grandfather took well over a month to return to
>the US after WWI & WWII; my father was back in college in 48 or so
>hours after his time in Vietnam.  Granted, that's _some_ rest time,
>but it's not nearly enough.  You don't find as much PTSD in fellows
>who got to slowly make their way back home, adjust to the new reality
>&c.; you find quite a lot in guys who are plucked up from one
>situation and dropped in another.

Which we accounted for in Desert Storm.  Most combat units spent a few
weeks getting back into routine before going stateside.

Returning home as a unit helped.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:39:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:39:51 2002
Subject: [TML] prejudice (OT)
In-Reply-To: <116.14e786df.2a7d2ad1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803112905.471757e8@pop.mindspring.com>

At 08:47 AM 8/3/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>And good heavens, I agree.  But joining the army is not the same.  The army 
>needs people it can definitely train now, that it can depend on to be able
>to do certain things now, and that are tough enough to get it done now.  

When I joined the US Army, I could barely do 5 push-ups, 20 situps, and
running 2 miles was out of the question.

Thirteen weeks later, in my final PT test, I did, in 2 minutes, 58 good
push-ups, 69 sit-ups, and ran 2 miles in just under 14 minutes.  I also had
never touched a firearm, but came out an expert marksman with several
weapons.  This is why we have training.

You comparison to a forty year old, is off.  Theoretically, that forty year
old had 22 years to decide to join, he chose not to.  A blanket ban on
women removes the choice.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:40:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:40:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Superstition (and Movies)
In-Reply-To: <d.2aca729a.2a7ca6f7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803113810.4727edae@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:24 PM 8/2/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>The movie MEMPHIS BELLE (the 1990s remake, not the earlier documentary) 
>illustrates this about as accurately as Hollywood ever gets history. It's a 
>pretty good representation of the history involved, including the extreme 
>youth of the aircrew.
>
>"Danny! Jack threw my St Christopher overboard!"
>"Here, take my lucky rubber band . . . it works, honest."

When I was still driving for SuperShuttle I had the honor of carrying one
of the Tuskeegee airmen in my van.  The stories he told me...  Evidently,
one of the pilots *had* to do a barrel-roll on take-off.  He's done it
once, and gotten his first kill.  So he did it everytime.  Another pilot
touched the muzzles of all the MGs before boarding.

>Several years ago, I was toying with the notion of writing a book of war 
>movie reviews discussing the relative level of accuracy of each (although I 
>think it has already been done). GETTYSBURG is one of my faves in this 
>regard. 

Great film.  "General, I have no division..."
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <m3k7n8eh5f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <3.0.5.16.20020802200157.46a789a6@pop.mindspring.com>
 <3.0.5.16.20020802200157.46a789a6@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803114257.497f3788@pop.mindspring.com>

At 09:49 PM 8/2/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes:
>>
>> Oh, and an NCO having sex with a solider in the same chain of
>> command is a violation of the UCMJ.  They deserved to get busted.
>
>That's a nice enough theory, but if one throws a bunch of 18-20
>yr. old boys and girls together they're going to get randy.  That's
>the Way It Is, regardless of what the rules are.  At least if one
>believes the modern prattle that one's sexual drive is irresistible,
>then one cannot hold anyone to account for giving in to said drive.
>And if one _doesn't_ hold to said prattle, then there's a whole load
>of other things one must abandon.

A NCO is supposed to be in better control of him/herself.  If that NCO is
out of control, then take away the stripes.

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:42:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:42:56 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <40.21b2d6f0.2a7cfea7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803114514.4717ac00@pop.mindspring.com>

At 05:38 AM 8/3/2002 EDT, you wrote:
> >And I daresay that if we have women serving in full combat capacity
> >under the regimes of either seperate standards (i.e. where they must
> >not meet the same standards as men) or reduced standards (e.g. I
> >understand that two-man stretcher teams are now four or more), we will
> >see plenty of human beings who die miserably because their comrades
> >are not up to the task.
>
>Actually, I'll bet we won't.  The military is talking now about how much 
>future warfare will be on the level of special ops, utilizing local troops 
>and only sending in special forces to coordinate bomb strikes, like in 
>Afghanistan.
>
>Army?  What army?

And in 1960 we knew that the next war was going to be on the North German
plains and involve massive tank formations.

Vietnam?  Where's that?
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Embrace Fascism.    The uniforms look cool


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:43:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:43:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <00e801c23adc$47c368c0$1d17bd50@martinjd>
References: <20020802231503.19852.60096.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <3D4B3637.35538EB8@mailbag.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803114655.4717ae96@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:54 AM 8/3/2002 +0100, you wrote:

>You mean Clif!
>
>Hey, everyone, he invoked Clif!
>
>Clif has been Invoked!

Aieee!!! you said it three times!  At least no one has mentioned Leroy yet... 
oh, damn.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"Some days, you just can't get rid  of a bomb!"
                    -Adam West, as Batman 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:44:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:44:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <39.2b0d8fbb.2a7d17c6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803114832.4717769c@pop.mindspring.com>

At 07:25 AM 8/3/2002 EDT, you wrote:

> >I also saw many male soldiers who whined and always seemed to be on
>profile.
>
>Many?  I saw a small handful -- in boot camp.  None of them passed.  Outside 
>of that, it was just normal morale problems.  My first reserve unit was top 
>notch, the navy men complained but were reliable and tough, and my next 
>reserve unit seemed to have nothing but capable people (except for a few 
>opportunistic bureaucrats).  I can't speak to where you were, but I've been 
>to some places and seen some environments, and I can't say I've seen "many" 
>male whiners or sick-bay commandos.

Many.  It might help that I was infantry.  I saw guys who were constantly
on profile, whined about their recruiters, and started their ETS countdown
with three years left in the service.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:45:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:45:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <19b.65b1e1c.2a7d49d4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803121034.44ff804c@pop.mindspring.com>

At 10:59 AM 8/3/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>Ah, a general overall fleet attack.  You describe a situation some weeks 
>after it has begun.  I think my scouts would give me a more accurate
picture, 
>and sooner.  I will send a message to Deneb to send a fleet.

Two months to get there at Jump-6.  Assuming an entire fleet is ready to
rush to your aid, 2-3 months to get it to the front.

>What is the status of his fleet at Cipango and Cronor?  If he has that much 
>out in my areas, then his central fleet is weakened.  If I can put two task 
>forces each on Cipango and maybe Ninjar then _his_ logistics train will be 
>cut entirely, and they'll provide a welcoming committee to any Zhodie ships 
>that straggle back home looking for support.  Further I'll send the fleet 
>raider task force to shoot up whatever they can in other worlds in that
area. 

What are his war goals?  If it is disrupting the Imperial confidence in the
sector, you will not be able to justify your move politically!  Remember,
in WWII the US went on the offensive only after Midway.

> Two can play this game, only I'll do it with concentrated task forces.  Let 
>the consule at Cronor yell at _his_ commander:  "There are a thousand 
>frigates at Querion!  Do something!"

Meanwhile there are a hundred ships at Jewell, Efate, Pixie.. destroying
naval bases and advanced starports.  He has a shorter line of support than
you.  Assuming that he started the attack, he also has more stockpiled
replacements.

>I'll leave Jewell exposed and do that.  Then I'll send out some of my task 
>forces individually to locate and mop up these isolated forces, using an 
>extensive scout network to relay information on their activities and ship 
>counts.  I'll plot their courses and attempt to determine where they want to 
>go.  Not that this would be hard to guess anyway -- I'm sure the Zhodies
will 
>bypass Pscias and go for Rethe if they can.

Any information you get will be at *least* a week out of date.  More likely
several weeks old.  How do you know that while you are chasing down raiders
the real main fleet isn't descending upon Regina?

> >Zho fleet elements have struck at weak targets on the border, but you don't
> >know it they retired afterward or are advancing.
>
>Assume they're advancing.

No.  You assume they are advancing.  You won't be sure until later.. much
later.
>
> >Your intelligence is a mess of vessel reports,
>
>This can be sorted out.  It may take a few hours, but I'm sure my staff is 
>efficient.

Try days.  And there is always a piece missing.  Read up on Market Garden

> >and while the attacks on
> >minor worlds are trivial from a military standpoint, those are imperial
> >citizens being shot up.
>
>Yes.  They will have to wait.  Soon it will be the Zhodies turn to be shot
up.

A bit harsh, yes?  Your job is to defend the Imperium!

>Everything in due time.  The Duke will have to be a big boy.  And likely he 
>is.  When the Zhodie fleet has been rolled back, I'll send in the troop 
>transports.  Not until then.

Tentative.  Hit them hard with everything.  If the Zho troops are engaged
in combat, suddenly they need help.  You've given the Zho commander a new
headache.  Depending on his ground investment, he may have a few hundred
thousand troops on the ground.  

>You're trying to make me panic.  I won't.  If the Zhodies have scattered a 
>lot of their fleet through my sector then I'll roll them up one at a time 
>with my task forces at no risk to myself.  It'll take a while, but it will
be 
>done.  Zhodane is mostly at tech 14, and tech 14 wallows in the mud against 
>tech 15.  I've tried every possible Zhodie fleet combination against the 
>Spinward Marches fleet that I can think of, pitting 7 AE worlds against what 
>Mora and Trin can build, and his only chance is to stick together.

You are still wedded to the idea that the Zho *wants* a fleet engagement.
You said it yourself: that's suicide.  So he keeps skirmishing.  Letting a
massive fleet be seen in one place, which then jumps to several different
worlds.  You come in and pick off a CruRon or two, but two jumps away,
there is glowing slag where the orbital shipyards used to be.  Look up
Quantril' Raiders, or the Rangers.  A diversified force can rip a superior
force to shreds if they are careful.

Which Roman was it that got ripped to shreds in Germany?

>Instead, I will make the Zhodies panic.  In 500 years the Imperium has never 
>taken offensive action against the Zhodane.  The Imperium has always
reacted, 
>defended, retreated, lost worlds.  I'll make the Zhodies defend and react to 
>me.  I will cut their lines, sit astride their repair facilities, and put 
>capital ships where they have not been for 500 years, forcing the Zhodies to 
>come to me.  Riverland and Cronor used to be Imperial.  I will have them 
>back.  When the Imperial Fleet reinforcements arrive, I just might get them.

Cool.  And in the same time, you have the Zhos coming from everywhere (the
Consulate is much smaller, y'know) and the Zho's destroying the ares you
were supposed to be defending!  If you are lucky, you'll be killed in
battle, and won't be hung for gross incompetence.

Mission is everything.  If you have been attacked, your first duty as an
Imperial officer is to defend the state.  Taking the war to the enemy's
home is a political decision.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"Genetically" we are nearly identical to fruit flies.  On the
other hand, as a species we write better string quartets. 
				- Rich Clancey


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:46:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:46:40 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <63.f7e6699.2a7d4cf9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803123126.44ff6796@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:12 AM 8/3/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>And that will work in my favor, as much of the Spinward Population lives in 
>the highly protected worlds of Trin, Mora, Glisten, Rhylanor, and Palique, 
>and the main fleet is very close by to Rethe, Louzy, Lunion, Jewell, and 
>Vilis.  That's almost half of the Spinward Marches on those planets alone.

My Sword World allies will tie down the Lunion and Glisten fleets.  Vargr
forces will raid the Coreward ends of Regina and Aramis to draw off fleet
elements from those subsectors.  Raiders and deep penetration fleets will
be sent into Regina and Villis for commerce and raiding and hit&run attacks
against starports capable of repairing navy ships.

My main thrust will come at Louzy/Jewell and Grant/Jewell.  Cutting off the
Jewell cluster.  Louzy has no gas giant, and Grant only two, making these
systems easy to hold.

With the door barred, and my penetrators wrecking havoc, I move on the
Jewell cluster itself.  Ruby (1005), Emerald (1006), and Mongo (1204) are
the first targets. All are relatively low tech, and only Mongo has a Naval
base.  From there, I send more forces to Lysen (1307).  Lysen doesn't have
enough people or technology to put up a stiff resitience.  These moves
would be on a timed basis, with fleets moving according to schedule.

Once everyhing was secure, I'd move the bulk of my fleets to Jewell (1106)
along with the invasion force.  Jewell would be a tough nut to crack

(Divergence, I just had the most amazing case of deja-vu.  I clearly
remembered typing that exact sentiece before, on this computer.  Weird)

With you reacting to my previous moves, I have you out of position.  I can
begin the bombardment of targets on the planet with minimal interference.
I would send troops down *as quickly as is possible* because in orbit, they
are targets.  On the ground, they are an asset.  My forces at the other
worlds have couriers stationed with them; ordered to jump out *the moment*
a large Imperial force engages my force.  This will give me at least a
little warning.

Obviously, there are holes in this attack, since I just came up with it.
The biggest hole I see is a fleet coming through the Federation of Arden on
my Rimward flank.  Placing pickets at Zircon (1110), Utoland (1209), Pequan
(1210), and 871-438 (1510) would give me warning, although I am probably
short on ships at this point.  Just have to hope that the raiders and
Swordies are doing their job.

There, a clear plan with goals.  That's what the Imperial player would also
need.  There is never a time when allowing massive friendly civilian
casualties is acceptable.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:47:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:47:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <98.29de0498.2a7d4f0e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803123222.44ff714e@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:21 AM 8/3/2002 EDT, you wrote:
> >You're thniking of everything in terms of a mapboard and counters. I'm
> >discussing warfare.
>
>I'm thinking in terms of what the actually constructed vessels will do 
>according to the rules, yes.  You are thinking in terms of imagining what
you 
>think various effects will be.  I'll take the hardware -- such as it is -- 
>and I'll have the last word.

You are really setting records for honking people off here, you know that?
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:48:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:48:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Ravioli in space (was: Junk in space)
Message-ID: <F114k2H3b98KtdhQYZk00009320@hotmail.com>

From: john.groth@us.army.mil
>From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
>>Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> > On the other hand, a 2 cm chunk of something is going to do more
>> > than leave a dent.
>>
>>Such a chunk probably has a kinetic energy of about 1 MJ at best, and
>>very likely is travelling at substantially less than the speed of
>>sound in starship hull material.
>>
>>I think "make a dent" would be about right.  If one ever hit,
>>which it
>>wouldn't unless the sensors were crippled.
>
>Why am I reminded of the "ravioli railgun" post of several years ago?
>(I'd repost it again, except that it's on one of my computers back
>Stateside....)
>
>IIRC, one of our Scandinavian list members also has it archived.

<puff of smoke>Oh, I have been summoned!


<Start Repost>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 08:31:46 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: HUMOR/Physics; Under enough pressure, ravioli behaves as a gas.

This is humor only people at MIT...or on the Traveller Mailing list...can 
appreciate.  Ravioli rail guns anyone?
While humorous in primary intent, this article also contains important
information about impact effects at vars. speeds...of a can of ravioli.

- ------- Forwarded Message>>To: 0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org
>Subject: Under enough pressure, ravioli behaves as a gas.
>Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 11:43:20 -0500>From: glen mccready <glen@qnx.com>>
[snip forwards]

>>There was still one aspect of the whole concept of a ravioli-loaded
>>railgun type wepon which we, lolling about late on a weeknight, with
>>only a few neurons randomly firing, could not resolve.  Would a chunk
>>of metal (can of ravioli) impacting another, larger, rest mass
>>structure (star destroyer) produce an "explosion" effect, or simply
>>punch an appropriately shaped hole as it passed through?  Bill?>

>What am I, the neighborhood blast physicist???  Well, maybe... :-)
>
>It all depends on speed of impact versus the speed of sound in the target
>(what is called the Mach number, where Mach 1 means the speed of sound,
>Mach 2 is twice the speed of sound, etc), and the speed of the ravioli
>versus the speed of light in the target (which I'll call the Cerenkov
>number, where Cerenkov 1 is the speed of light in anything; Cerenkov 1.3
>is the speed of high-energy protons in a water-cooled reactor (that's why
>you get that nifty blue glow), and you can get up to Cerenkov 2.4 using
>diamonds and nuclear accellerators.  In the late 40's people used to talk
>about Cerenkov numbers, but they don't anymore.  Pity.).  Lastly, there's
>the ravioli velocity expressed as a fraction of the speed of light in a
>vacuum (that is, as a fraction of "c").  "C" velocities are always between
>0 and 1.
>
>At low speeds (REAL low) the ravioli will simply flow over the surface,
>yielding a space-cruiser with a distinctly Italian paint job.>
>Faster (still well below speed-of-sound in the target) the metal of the
>space-cruiser's skin will distort downward, making what we Boston drivers
>call a "small dent".
>
>Faster still, you may have a "big dent" or maybe even a "big dent with a
>hole in the middle", caused by the ravioli having enough energy to push
>the dent through, stretching and thinning the hull metal till the metal
>finally tears in the middle of the dent.
>
>Getting up past Mach 1 (say, 5000 feet/sec for steel), you start to get
>punch-a-hole-shaped-like-the-object effects, because the metal is being
>asked to move faster than the binding forces in the object can propagate
>the "HEY!  MOVE!" information.  (After all, sound is just the binding
>forces between atoms in a material moving the adjacent atoms -- and the
>speed of sound is how fast the message to "move" can propagate.)  From
>this, we see that WileE Coyote often reached far-supersonic speeds because
>he often punched silhouette-type holes in rocks, cliffs, trucks, etc.
>
>Around Mach 4 or so, another phenomenon starts -- compressive heating.
>This is where the leading edge of the ravioli actually starts being heated
>by compression (remember PV=nRT, the ideal gas law?)  Well, ravioli isn't
>a gas, but under enough pressure, ravioli behaves as a gas.  It is
>compressed at the instant of impact and gets hot -- very hot.  Likewise,
>the impact point on the hull is compressed and gets hot.  Both turn to
>gasses -- real gasses, glowing-white-hot gasses.  The gasses expand
>spherically, causing crater-like effects, including a raised rim and a
>basically parabolic shape.  In the center of the crater, some material is
>vaporized, then there's a melt zone, then a larger "bent" zone, and the
>raised rim is caused because the gas expansion bubble center point (the
>bending force) is actually *inside* the hull plate.  If the hull plate
>isn't thick enough, then the gas-expansion bubble pushes through to the
>other side, and you get a structural breach event (technically speaking,
>a "big hole") in the side of the space-cruiser.
>
>Compressive heating really hits the stride up around 20,000 feet/sec (Mach
>4 in steel, Mach 15 in air) and continues as a major factor all the way
>up to the high fractional Cerenkov speeds, where nuclear forces begin to
>take effect.
>
>Aside: the "re-entry friction heating" that spacecraft endure when the
>reenter the atmosphere is NOT friction.  It's really compressive heating
>of the air in the path.  As long as the spacecraft is faster than Mach 1,
>the air can't know to get out of the way, so it bunches up in front of
>the spacecraft.  When you squeeze any gas, it gets hot.  So, the glowing
>"reentry gas" is really just squeezed air, which heats the spacecraft heat
>shield by conduction and infrared.  The hypersonic ravioli can be expected
>to behave similarly.
>
>As we increase speed from the high Mach numbers (about 10 miles/sec) all
>the way up to about 150,000 miles/sec, not much different happens except
>that the amount of kinetic energy (which turns into compressive heat)
>increases.  This is a huge range of velocity, but it's uninteresting
>velocity.
>
>At high fractional Cerenkov speeds, the ravioli is now beginning to travel
>at relativistic velocities.  Among other things, this means that the
>ravioli is aging more slowly than usual, and the ravioli can looks
>compressed in the direction of travel.  But that's really not important
>right now.
>
>As we pass Cerenkov 1.0 in the target, we get a new phenomenon -- Cerenkov
>radiation.  This is that distinctive blue glow seen around water-cooled
>reactors.  It's just (relatively) harmless light (harmless compared to
>the other blast effects, that is).  I mention it only because it's so
>nifty...
>
>At around .9 c (Cerenkov 1.1) , the ravioli starts to perceptibly weigh
>more.  It's just a relativistic mass increase -- all the additional weight
>is actually energy, available to do compressive heating upon impact.  The
>extra weight is converted to heat energy according to the equation E=mc^2;
>it looks like compressive heating but it's not.
>
>[Here's where I'm a little hazy on the numbers; I'm at work and
>don't have time to rederive the Lorentz transformations.]
>
>At around .985 c (Cerenkov 1.2 or so), the ravioli now weighs twice what
>it used to weigh. For a one pound can, that's two pounds... or about sixty
>megatons of excess energy.  All of it turns to heat on impact.  Probably
>very little is left of the space-cruiser.
>
>At around .998 c, the impacting ravioli begins to behave less like ravioli
>and more like an extremely intense radiation beam.  Protons in the water
>of the ravioli begin to successfully penetrate the nuclei of the hull
>metal.  Thermonuclear interactions, such as hydrogen fusion, may take
>place in the tomato sauce.
>
>At around .9998 c, the ravioli radiation beam is still wimpy as far as
>nuclear accellerator energy is concerned, but because there is so much of
>it, we can expect a truly powerful blast of mixed radiation coming out of
>the impact site.  Radiation, not mechanical blast, may become the largest
>hazard to any surviving crew members.
>
>At around .9999999 c, the ravioli radiation may begin to produce
>"interesting" nuclear particles and events (heavy, short-lived particles).
>
>At around .999999999999 c, the ravioli impact site may begin to resemble
>conditions in the original "big bang"; equilibrium between matter and
>energy; free pair production; antimatter and matter coexisting in
>equilibrium with a very intense gamma-ray flux, etc.[1]
>
>Past that, who knows?  It may be possible to generate quantum black holes
>given a sufficiently high velocity can of ravioli.
>
>     --Bill
>
>[1]According to physicist W. Murray, we may also expect raining frogs,
>   plagues of locusts, cats and dogs living together, real Old Testament
>   destruction.  You get the idea...
<end repost>


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:50:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:50:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
In-Reply-To: <20020803190005.10755.54707.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17b4qf-0002Ab-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
 
> While there is likely a connection between PTSD and rapid
> reintegration back into 'normal' life, experts have also linked PSTD
> to the extensive use of operant conditioning of soldiers that occurred
> after WWII.

???  I've never heard of this, who performed this conditioning and 
what were they attempting to do?  I'd be very interested in hearing 
more about this.

-John sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 13:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 12:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: intrasystem jumps?
Message-ID: <200208031956.g73Jurw06881@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
...
>> and protect shipping between these points.  Convoys may be forced to
>> use jump ships to do intrasystem jumps to avoid raiders,
>
>Not likely, I would think.  That would cripple your economy worse than
>losing 70% of your ships.  You'd be better off escorting them in
>normal space, since non-jump ships are so much cheaper than jump
>capable ones.

  Under G:T? In CT the cost difference isn't all that marked - an
in-system transport designed under HG2 could have J-1 installed
with the tankage demountable. Most dedicated in-system freight
would be normal space (& possibly _very_ slow!), but the wartime
requirement for tonnage might be readied in such auxiliary ships?

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 14:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 13:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <E17arId-0004ch-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <C25B0D56-A71B-11D6-8894-000502884755@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

On Friday, August 2, 2002, at 10:16 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
>
> The fun part will come of someone figures out a moderately easy
> way to get someone into a simulator while making them think they
> are getting into the real thing.  You won't be able to pull that trick
> more than once on someone unless the sims are *really* good
> (and they might be), but it would be an *excellent* test of exactly
> how well a pilot has learned his or her lessons.

The *really* fun part is where some Bad Guy(TM) figures out how to take 
out the safeties, and make a sim that really *can* kill...

> --
Bruce Johnson

Wherever you go, there you are.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 14:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 13:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Blowing holes in Japan (was " Re Patton")
In-Reply-To: <F215m4i0FN8Qnr2Hs3j00000007@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <828EDE16-A71E-11D6-8894-000502884755@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

On Friday, August 2, 2002, at 08:27 PM, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>     The result may have been an Indochina similar to our Central 
> America, rat bastards in charge of corrupt, laughing-stock nations 
> supported by the West solely because they aren't communists.

>     Gee, ain't alternate history fun?

Me thinks back to Suharto, Marcos, Dieu, Kai-shek, whoever it was that 
ruled Korea for so long...I must ask, sir, what's so *alternate* about 
this history you're describing? ;-)

--
Bruce Johnson

Wherever you go, there you are.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 14:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug  3 13:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
In-Reply-To: <E17b4qf-0002Ab-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <B9718B94.67A59%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/3/02 12:44 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:

> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> 
>> While there is likely a connection between PTSD and rapid
>> reintegration back into 'normal' life, experts have also linked PSTD
>> to the extensive use of operant conditioning of soldiers that occurred
>> after WWII.
> 
> ???  I've never heard of this, who performed this conditioning and
> what were they attempting to do?  I'd be very interested in hearing
> more about this.

Operant conditioning was one of the center pieces of the army's new training
methods that were adopted as a results of the work of SLA Marshall.
Marshall reported that only a small fraction of infantryman in combat fired
their weapons.  Even though Marshall's seminal work "Men against fire" has
been called into question, there is little doubt that Marshall's theories
had a great impact on military training.  A classic example of the operant
conditioning that was adopted post WWII is in the case of basic rifle
marksmanship.  Until the 1950, rifle marksmanship consisted of firing at
conventional targets at known distances.  This was changed to firing at
human silhouettes at random ranges in conditioned meant to simulate combat.
Soldiers were 'conditioned' to fire automatically at human silhouette.

The program was successful.  The number of troops firing in combat went from
10-30% to over 90%.  Many psychiatrists and others in the field have
suggested that this operant conditioning may have had deleterious effects in
that it short circuits the natural human reluctance to kill.  There is a
detailed explanation of this theory in Grossman's "On Killing", and it has
received coverage in other works such as "An intimate history of killing"
and "Achilles in Vietnam"

Hope that helps.

Tod
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 14:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Sat Aug  3 13:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] PTSD
In-Reply-To: <E17b4qf-0002Ab-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208031349080.22611-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Sat, 3 Aug 2002 sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:

> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
>  
> > While there is likely a connection between PTSD and rapid
> > reintegration back into 'normal' life, experts have also linked PSTD
> > to the extensive use of operant conditioning of soldiers that occurred
> > after WWII.
> 
> ???  I've never heard of this, who performed this conditioning and 
> what were they attempting to do?  I'd be very interested in hearing 
> more about this.

I know very little about this, but recent studies with sexual assault
victims (a lot of PTSD cases in civilian life occur among sexual assault
victims) *have* shown that a lot of the things we used to do to prevent
PTSD don't work and seem to make the problem worse.  For instance,
they found that certain forms of "debriefing" which involved discussing
the incident over and over actually increased the likelihood of
flashbacks.  Apparently this only seems to fix and anchor the memories. 

I don't unfortunately still have the citation, but I read it on
www.medscape.com -- I get the Transplantation update because of my job but
also signed up for the Women's Health and Psychiatry updates because of
my personal health issues.  I know it's out there.

The current trend on PTSD according to a lecture I attended recently is
that there seems to be a window in which symptoms will or won't develop,
and that judicious use of other forms of therapy including drugs to
decrease the nervous system reactivity are more effective than
"debriefing" or operant conditioning.  Apparently one's brain chemistry
becomes much more reactive following a sexual assault or battle experience
or other trauma... and whether or not it stays that way is the deciding
factor for the development of PTSD.

Please remember that these people who used these ineffective treatments
weren't evil or careless; they were doing the best they had with the
information currently available.

Kiri :)

**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shadowcat)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Quote from a Martial Arts Newsgroup[OT]
Message-ID: <3D4BC3F3.19297.767088@localhost>

> Let's have a good old Elisha vs. the prophets of Baal showdown.  
You 
> pray to Allah, I'll pray to General Dynamics. We'll see who bursts 
> into flame first.

This wasnt attributed to source other than the newsgroup it was 
seen in


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for the Atro-genius Types (was: System Gen Help)
In-Reply-To: <c9.261a11c4.2a7d38e2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020803210827.89257.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>

Would it be possible for a planet be captured into an
L4 or L5 point on a Gas Giant?


>  >> I am doing an extended system generation.  I
> rolled
>  >> for #6 to be the max orbit.  I also rolled for 2
>  >> captured planets.  One is in orbit 6.3 and the
> other
>  >> is in 6.0
>  >> 
>  >> Orbit 6 and 5 are both SGG's.  4 is the
> mainworld and
>  >> the habitable zone.
>  >> 
>  >> Is this legitimate?  Or do I need to move the
> captured
>  >> planet in orbit 6.0 to somewhere else.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
In-Reply-To: <20020801210703.29080.82373.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentr
 al.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020803221209.00ac8e90@mail.pi.se>

Mr Greenly wrote:

>Would a world that has 80% of its surface covered by water, a dense
>nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, and one moon that is large enough to exert a
>tidal effect tend to be more or less climatically active? Assume
>moderate (terran-normal) vulcanism and a fairly non-polluting early TL
>aqua/agricultural society. Also assume standard polar ice caps and
>rotation around 20 deg. off the plane of the ecliptic. I'll welcome any
>and all comments...

Mr Greenly, I wish to apologize for the late reply.

Let me first say the result would depend on physiography (how do the 
continents look?), and what you mean with climatically active. Often people 
- not that I in any way wish to imply you do so in your question - confuse 
climate with weather. A world can have violent weather but uniform climate.

The second thing is that climate unless you do have a uniform world (like 
Venus) will vary, so what is standard climate is a bit like saying "this is 
a mountain world". Rather Star-Wars generalization. A world humans would 
endure on likely would not be so generic.

Okay, the basic difference is that you have a denser atmosphere and more 
oceanic surface.

This will lead to 1) more water vapor in the atmosphere giving more cloud 
cover. This moderates climate, and it moderates the diurnal differences. 
You may get very impressive storm systems _if_ oceans becomes warm enough 
to set of hurricanes. This is something you wish to check for your tropical 
zones - if the oceans are warmer than 27C you can expect severe storm 
belts. So you would get less climate but more weather.

It will also lead to 2) better heat transfer by oceans and atmosphere, as 
we have more atmosphere and more ocean. This however would depend on 
physiography too - you still have these icecaps, right? When Earth was 
warmer and more humid, there were no ice caps. So I'd guess most of your 
continents are pole-ward. That would lead to great variations near the 
polar ice caps - cold polar air, winds from the glaciers, great seasonal 
effects.

If we assume an Earth-like placement of continents, I'd wager the 
moderation would in general be something like 50% better than on Earth, and 
that would likely prevent ice caps to form on a large scale. In order to 
keep the ice caps, you need to lower temperatures worldwide. If you lower 
temperatures, the atmosphere will hold less water vapor, which means you 
will have less weather but more variable climate. You'd still have oceanic 
moderation and the dense atmosphere, so you would get a world on average 
cooler than Earth with less distinct climate zones.

The denser atmosphere would also influence aeolian erosion. But this is not 
as much a macro-climate issue, though it could be locally important for 
microclimate depending on the geomorphology and vegetation cover you intend 
to have. If you are interested in such ramblings - closer to my field, so 
to say - or want some elaboration or math on the stuff above feel free to 
contact me off-list. I fear I won't read the digests with much attention as 
long as the current post flurry goes on. (To put it diplomatically...)

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <98.29de0498.2a7d4f0e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c23b34$47c49940$a211bd50@martinjd>

> >You're thniking of everything in terms of a mapboard and counters. I'm
>  >discussing warfare.
>
> I'm thinking in terms of what the actually constructed vessels will do
> according to the rules, yes.

My point was always that a realistic game setting - my main concern - is not
the result of your fleet model, which is designed to play a game of High
Guard with. I've tried to show why other ships than dreadnoughts and scouts
or whatnot are necessessary and useful.

.  I'll take the hardware -- such as it is --
> and I'll have the last word.

I don't see what you mean by that comment. If you're claiming to be the High
Guard mastergenius then fine, whatever. You'll win High Guard games and the
Traveller universe will continue to have diverse classes of ships that you
think are pointless. All we've really established is that we have radically
different viewpoints. And I can live with that....



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Pixie Revisited (was: Imperial Taxes)
In-Reply-To: <4957.64.8.3.28.1028349006.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020803211533.94550.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>

--- hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head
> tax" or does it charge

If the Imperium uses a per main-world "head tax" then
that may help explain the Pixie's of the region. 
Convince the Scouts that the main world really is the
low population world, then the per main-world "head
tax" is based on that main world rather than the total
population of the system.

Thoughts?

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: UFO
In-Reply-To: <memo.479640@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020803212000.97843.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Megan Robertson <mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk>
wrote:
> Mexal.
> 
> (43 on Friday... "Second childhood? Heck, I haven't
> done with the first 
> one yet!")


A bout of 24-hour flu prevented me from much posting
or reading yesterday.

So let me wish a somewhat belated HAPPY BIRTHDAY to
you.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:21:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:21:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <3.0.5.16.20020803121034.44ff804c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <002c01c23b35$18ddf4e0$a211bd50@martinjd>

>
> You are still wedded to the idea that the Zho *wants* a fleet engagement.

My point precisely.

> You said it yourself: that's suicide.  So he keeps skirmishing.  Letting a
> massive fleet be seen in one place, which then jumps to several different
> worlds.  You come in and pick off a CruRon or two, but two jumps away,
> there is glowing slag where the orbital shipyards used to be.  Look up
> Quantril' Raiders, or the Rangers.  A diversified force can rip a superior
> force to shreds if they are careful.

Again. This is what I have in mind...




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Firearms in Vacuum
In-Reply-To: <20803.011715.6z8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c23b33$ea8b8c20$0c0a0a0a@glidenet.com>

Actually firearms work BETTER in a vacuum situation provided
that you overcome a few technical details...

expansion, contraction and cracking of materials due to extremes
in temperatures found in stellar environments.

Lubricants boiling away in vacuum, or gumming in near zero
temperatures.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com [mailto:tml-
> admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Leonard Erickson
> Sent: Saturday, 03 August, 2002 05:17
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Firearms in Vacumn
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > Leonard Erickson wrote:
> >>
> >> In mail you write:
> >>
> >> > "Robert Uhl " wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > No, but guns *have* been fired underwater (this is a somewhat
> >> >> > different situation than firing one with a barrel full of
water).
> >> >>
> >> >> Anyone here have any experience doing this?  I know that it's
> supposed
> >> >> to work, but I've never worked up the courage or folly necessary
to
> >> >> play with it.  I've a lot of respect for Things What Go Boom,
and
> I've
> >> >> little desire to annoy them...
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
> >> >> If your franchise is not secured by force of personal arms, you
are
> a
> >> >> subject, not a citizen.                               --H. Beam
> Piper
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> TML mailing list
> >> >> TML@travellercentral.com
> >> >> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> >> >
> >> > I launched a model rocket from underwater after seeing it in "The
> Model
> >> > Roceteer" It was very
> >> > impressive.
> >>
> >> Do you still have any copies of The Model Rocketeer? Mine got lost
a
> >> long time ago :-(
> >
> > I think so, I'll have a look next time I'm cleaning that part of the
> garage.
> > Anything in particular
> > or do you want that article on underwater launches?
> 
> Well, I'd like to have a set of the silly things, or at least a decent
> scan of them.
> 
> --
> Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:23:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:23:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <20020802231503.19852.60096.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com><3D4B3637.35538EB8@mailbag.com> <3.0.5.16.20020803114655.4717ae96@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <003301c23b35$47204d80$a211bd50@martinjd>

> Aieee!!! you said it three times!  At least no one has mentioned Leroy
yet...
> oh, damn.

Oh gods, people.

These things come in threes, right? Clif, Leroy....

And now I've mentioned Leroy twice!

We are doomed. Assemble the Penguins of Apocalypse!


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"
References: <B971637A.67A12%listmom@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <006701c23b36$590b9800$a211bd50@martinjd>

> > The answer? Learn to get along and abolish conflict.
> > Until then, we must accept the paradox and try to do the best we can not
to
> > cause needless suffering. But we will, all the same.

Okay. OBTRAV: I wrote a similar quote in Starmercs.


Or.... imagine how utterly riddled with compromise the 3I must be, trying to
find local get-along solutions to conflicts and issues that just won't go
away. No wonder there are so many nobles and diplomats out there trying to
keep everything down to an acceptable level.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] COTI website
Message-ID: <00af01c23b37$299584e0$a211bd50@martinjd>

Okay. All other stuff stopped as of now.

The reason I mentioned the site was that we've just added more crunchy
Traveller goodness, and maybe some tml members haven't seen it yet. And
we're paying for contributions, albeit not much.


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-to-the-Masses
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Gauss Round Velocity
In-Reply-To: <B96D6322.66F09%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c23b36$2a596690$0c0a0a0a@glidenet.com>

IMTU a gauss weapon barrel is slightly larger than the round itself.
The round floats within the magnetic field inside the barrel,
Thus the barrel does not ware out, only the coils.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com [mailto:tml-
> admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Tod Glenn
> Sent: Wednesday, 31 July, 2002 12:49
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Gauss Round Velocity
> 
> on 7/31/02 2:40 AM, Flykiller@aol.com at Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> 
> >
> > conventional barrels are just a piece of hardened steel, and even
they
> wear
> > out.  if you merely scratch the crown(?) of the barrel it can ruin
> accuracy.
> > I would think a gauss rifle barrel would be a very high-precision
piece
> of
> > electro-mechanical equipment, and that subjecting it to a rapid
series
> of
> > small sonic booms could disturb it a little.
> 
> 
> Certainly, that's possible.  I would expect that gauss rifle barrels
would
> be at least as durable at contemporary firearms.  In a military weapon
> that's typically in excess of 50,000 rounds.  Accuracy is not much of
an
> issue.  The required accuracy of a military weapon is not the same as
a
> target rifle.  The AK series is considered one of the premier military
> small
> arms, yet barely manages 5 MOA accuracy.
> 
> If we accept the gauss weapon as pictured and described on page 101 of
> Fire,
> Fusion and Steel first edition as canon, the barrel of a gauss rifle
is
> really nothing more than an electrical coil.  Certainly a structure
that
> can
> be made robust enough to be imperious to hypersonic shock.  If the
gauss
> rifle is some sort of rail gun weapon, the barrel is even simpler, and
> must
> be sufficiently strong to resist the intense magnetic forces acting to
rip
> the rail apart.  Again, and effect from sonic shockwave are likely to
be
> negligible.
> 
> Bear in mind that the air in the barrel is a gas, and highly
compressable.
> It is also probably at least a thousand times less dense than the
material
> the barrel is composed of.  That is certainly not to say that it will
be
> uneffected, buy any such effect are likely to be so small as to not be
> noteworthy.
> 
> On the other hand, there is not telling what effects the sudden and
> repeated
> surges of high powered magnetic flux will have on the material, or the
> firer
> for that matter.
> 
> --
> When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
> --
> Tod L Glenn
> webmaster@travellercentral.com
> http://www.travellercentral.com
> http://www.spinwardmarches.com
> http://www.solsec.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 15:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 14:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
Message-ID: <136.11daab1b.2a7daa90@aol.com>

 >Mines, even of a CAPTOR type, don't have much area coverage. You'd need a
 >lot of them to cover an area, though orbits and other choke points are a
 >possibility.

Well, yes, that's the point.

Does Traveller have any rules for mines?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"
In-Reply-To: <11c.14d66d9e.2a7ce27f@aol.com>
References: <11c.14d66d9e.2a7ce27f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <p04330101b972034c1c26@[143.232.119.186]>

At 3:38 AM -0400 8/3/02, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
>  >>>> "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!" >>>
>  >
>  >Under the rules of war, we've been discussing, if an enemy intentionally
>  >builds fortifications or other military structures among a civilian
>  >populance, then that enemy becomes rssponsible for the safety of those
>  >aforementioned civilians. If those civilians are actively and willfully
>  >supporting the enemy, then they are no longer considered noncombatants. So,
>  >it IS Al Quaida's fault and responsibility if the US intentionally seeks to
>  >bomb a legitimate military target that Al Qaida has hidden behind a human
>  >shield.
>
>I rest my case.
>
>"It's Milosivic's fault we bombed a convoy of farmers!"
>"It's Arafat's fault we bombed that apartment building!"
>"It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a convoy of inauguration representatives on
>the open road!"
>
>If I were to act with this level of disregard even in defense of my own
>children, I'd be in jail.  McVeigh was right -- "collateral damage" covers a
>multitude of sins.

Ironically, it is this attitude that, in fact, means that you will 
have _more_ civilian casualties.  It means that one side can put 
targets in the middle of civilians and be rewarded by their being 
protected or by their gaining condemnation of the other side.  This 
will only mean they will do it even more.  (Which, in fact, is what 
we see, the less moral are in fact doing just that).

If you really care about civilian casualties, you would join in say 
that that the world sould put pressure on those that deliberately 
court such deaths, those that use civilians as human shields....
-- 
_______________________________________________________________
David P. Summers, SETI Institute
Mail Stop 239-4
NASA Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000

650-604-6206
dsummers@mail.arc.nasa.gov

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <003301c23b35$47204d80$a211bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHGEECIKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

:
:

We are doomed. Assemble the Penguins of Apocalypse!

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

And us with a snowball's chance
 
jml
why penguins
I mean, take Howard Stern, he looks
and acts a lot more alien

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:12:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:12:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes
In-Reply-To: <4957.64.8.3.28.1028349006.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <4957.64.8.3.28.1028349006.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <p04330102b972055d98f1@[143.232.119.186]>

At 12:30 AM -0400 8/3/02, hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>Hello Folks,
>   Just a question of sorts...
>
>In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head tax" or does it charge
>an income tax on its citizens for its Imperial Budget requirements?  In
>short, if the Imperial government taxes 10% of a Gross Planetary Product,
>then it would in essence be an income tax.  If it charges a flat 500 CR
>per person on a planet, then it is a head tax.  Which is it?
>
>And I find it an interesting thought here.  If the Imperium charges say,
>3% of a planet's gross planetary product for its military taxes - this tax
>is on top of the local ruler's/government's tax.  How much in the way of
>taxes can a population take before its economy begins to stagnate?

My impression is that imperial taxes are very indirect (they collect 
money from the member states.  The only direct taxes are the fees 
they collect at starports?
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
Message-ID: <133.124edb2b.2a7daff5@aol.com>

 >> What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other 
 >> sensor systems 
 >> you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?
 >
 >I recommend you read Bruce Alan Macintosh's Definitive Sensor Rules for 
 >T4/FF&S2 for a complete discussion of sensors.  Passive sensors IRL 
 >would have ranges in space significanly better than those of active 
 >sensors such as radar.
 >
 >http://traveller.mu.org/house/sensor.rules.html

Great site, thanks.  But using this it looks like mines are right out.  I 
wish it were so easy to detect incoming asteroids and meteors in RL.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:26:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:26:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: troll optimization on the TML
Message-ID: <1aa.6256260.2a7db26e@aol.com>

 >> Mex, you need to have Fly run around the parade ground until 
 >> you get tired...
 >
 >Now THERE's a Good Idea :-)
 >
 >"Flykiller, front and centre!"

Ma'am, yes ma'am!  (thud thud thud thud)  Ma'am, Sgt. Flykiller reporting as 
ordered, ma'am!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:27:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:27:24 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was  COTI website)
In-Reply-To: <00af01c23b37$299584e0$a211bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <20020803222559.7D7BC2793F@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/03/02 at 10:45 PM,  "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
said:

>Okay. All other stuff stopped as of now.

>The reason I mentioned the site was that we've just added more
>crunchy Traveller goodness, and maybe some tml members haven't seen
>it yet. And we're paying for contributions, albeit not much.

Martin, Loren, Hunter, and all others involved in producing Traveller
oriented stuff,

IMO, I don't mind occasional reminders of "what you've got" and where
it is, I don't mind announcements when you've got something new and
exciting, I don't mind you asking us for our input on things, and I
don't mind you giving us your input on things. In fact, I appreciate
it, and hope you kept it up!  Now, if you started posting
advertisements every day and twice on Sundays, then that would be too
much, but none of you are, or are likely to start, doing that. 

So, to those that think Martan, Loren, et al are "spamming" this group
I politely offer the suggestion..."Go suck eggs!"  

And to the subjects of this post, I say, "Thank you for the work and
keeping us informed, and keep doing both!"

Eris,
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:29:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:29:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Gauss Round Velocity
In-Reply-To: <000c01c23b36$2a596690$0c0a0a0a@glidenet.com>
Message-ID: <B971A6EB.67A9C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/3/02 2:38 PM, Shawn R Sears at ShawnSears@telocity.com wrote:

> IMTU a gauss weapon barrel is slightly larger than the round itself.
> The round floats within the magnetic field inside the barrel,
> Thus the barrel does not ware out, only the coils.
> 

Just out of curiosity, why do the coils wear out?  There's no contact with
the projectile, just current generating a magnetic field, right?

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] PTSD
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208031349080.22611-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208031349080.22611-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <m3ado3d16n.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Azalais Malfoy <tiamat@tsoft.com> writes:
>
> For instance, they found that certain forms of "debriefing" which
> involved discussing the incident over and over actually increased
> the likelihood of flashbacks.  Apparently this only seems to fix and
> anchor the memories.

That's what I've been saying for years: going on about a problem only
worsens it, like picking at a scab.  Better not to dwell on it, I'd
think, otherwise as you point out it becomes fixed in one's mind.

> The current trend on PTSD according to a lecture I attended recently
> is that there seems to be a window in which symptoms will or won't
> develop, and that judicious use of other forms of therapy including
> drugs to decrease the nervous system reactivity are more effective
> than "debriefing" or operant conditioning.  Apparently one's brain
> chemistry becomes much more reactive following a sexual assault or
> battle experience or other trauma... and whether or not it stays
> that way is the deciding factor for the development of PTSD.

So having a few drinks might help?  How amusing:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I'm reminded of the day my daughter came in, looked over my shoulder at
some Perl 4 code and said, `What is that, swearing?'       --Larry Wall

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:35:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:35:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <73.238e61b4.2a7db467@aol.com>

 >On the flip side, two of my friends (female friends) are more determined and
 >in absolute terms more capable than half the men in our martial arts class.
 >They're better than many who hold higher grades. They'd be barred under your
 >rules.

Fully capable men 40 years of age are also barred from enlistment.  There's a 
reason.

 >>that's not damning women, and that's not prejudice.
 >
 >Deciding the fate of half the human race - pre-judging their capabilities -
 >becuase of gender. Nah, that's notuing like prejudice.

Their fate?  I really don't think so.

 >Of course, the poor dears can't be expected to understand politics, manage
 >an estate or run a business either. Any you know? they couldn't do it. Not
 >until someone let them try.

They are trying it.  And it's causing far more damage than good.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:36:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:36:30 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEKPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEKPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <p04330103b9720a71cb73@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:47 PM -0700 8/2/02, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>  >From: "Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com>
>>Subject: [TML] re: Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
>traveller)
>>
>>With "freezer pop" soldiers, you might have people who wake
>>up, fight to the death for a week, then go back to sleep
>>until the next fight to the death crops up. No down time,
>>no ability to process what happened before it all starts
>>again.  Imagine the post-war condition of the average US
>
>For this reason, I doubt that the Imperial and Solomani militaries rely
>heavily on low berth for troop transportation.  The Zhodani may have an edge
>with better capabilities in psychology.
>
>>Forever War was a helluva book, btw.
>
>Agreed!


It seemed a good deal.  You aren't first into battle (you aren't any 
more likely to get killed since the unfrozen guys get killed first) 
and you don't have to deal with boredom between battles.  Odds are 
you sign up, get frozen, and wake up with all your pay waiting for 
you.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
Message-ID: <memo.581428@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <m3u1mbdi0l.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
> > Mind you, I was using an umbrella to crawl behind.  They couldn't
> > spot me visually, either.  I took a page from German tactics in
> > camouflage.
> 
> Oh, so you _weren't_ wearing a bright blue coat and bright red pants?
> However did you retain your lan?

I did on one occasion manage to hide in the middle of a clearing wearing a 
set of bright blue coveralls.

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:48:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:48:57 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
Message-ID: <memo.581429@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <200208031245370897.51623A1B@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
> BTW, if anyone is attending GenCon this year, be sure to stop by the 
> QLI booth (#841). Marc will be there as our guest and we'll have copies 
> of T20 Lite fresh off the presses!

Any plans for a presence at Gen Con UK?

Apart from the T20 lite scenario I'm writing, that is (characters 
courtesy of Mark Urbin). And our friends at BITS...

Oh, and you may have the scenario after Gen Con UK for the website.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.

PS. Hunter, did you get the e-mail I sent you?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Junk in space
In-Reply-To: <3865583847de.3847de386558@us.army.mil>
References: <3865583847de.3847de386558@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <20020804085749.A21861@freeman.little-possums.net>

john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:
> Why am I reminded of the "ravioli railgun" post of several years ago?  
[...]
> IIRC, one of our Scandinavian list members also has it archived.

Yes, I've got that one archived too. :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 16:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Sat Aug  3 15:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Off I go
Message-ID: <F253RGE9fkM0PhDK4TI00026147@hotmail.com>

I've sent an unsub request to the listmom, I should
be gone for a week.  If someone has an email for me,
it should make it to this email account, at least
until it fills with spam.  Much as I hate to walk out
in the middle of such interesting discussions, it is
family vacation time!

My sister's marriage to one of Uncle Sam's Misguided
Children has made the beachfront cabins of Camp Lejeaune
available to me and mine, so I hope in a day or two to
have my little ones playing in the water at a beach in
the Carolinas while I watch amphibious assault exercises
through my binoculars.  My brother-in-law has been a long
time away on the Tarawa, so my sister and her kids are
looking forward to some family company.

With any luck, a day trip to the USS North Carolina
will round out the visit.  I've been really looking
forward to it.

Leroy, Cliff, and now Flykiller...this list never
ceases to entertain!  :-)

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:00:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:00:04 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
Message-ID: <168.1196d69b.2a7dba32@aol.com>

 >>  >Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
 >>  >big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.
 >> 
 >> What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other sensor 
systems 
 >> you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?
 >
 >Well, the problem is that even if you have literally thousands of
 >them, the nearest one will likely pass tens of thousands of kilometres
 >from the target.  So they need pretty good sensors, which means
 >significant cost and size.
 > ....
 >Worse still, we're talking about insystem relative speeds which are
 >often on the order of megametres per second.  In a typical Traveller
 >space combat sequence, the ship gets a million kilometres away during
 >the combat round in which it is detected.

I was envisioning them as being simply chemical missiles.  In orbit around a 
gas giant would be a good place.  The ships have to go there, they can't go 
all that fast while scooping, and there is a horizon beyond which they'll 
have trouble seeing (if they can see through a horizon at all).  They 
shouldn't need tremendous sensors for such a location.  Or maybe they could 
be floating just below the surface of the water in a system with only water 
fuel available.  They wouldn't have to sense much, just a big thing blocking 
out the sun or maybe a large magnetic disturbance, and their target would 
hardly be moving.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <B97163D2.67A14%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <fc.1bc430d6.2a7d06b7@aol.com> <B97163D2.67A14%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020804090304.B21861@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> Nothing says that mines need to be static, waiting for something to hit
> them.  A mine could be nothing more than a large missile with high
> acceleration and short range waiting for some ship to come into range.

In fact, it pretty much *has* to be a missile.  Quite a lot bigger,
because it needs its own sensor array, more endurance than a normal
missile, and better defences.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: intrasystem jumps?
In-Reply-To: <200208031956.g73Jurw06881@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
References: <200208031956.g73Jurw06881@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <20020804090450.C21861@freeman.little-possums.net>

Steven Hudson wrote:

> From: Timothy Little
> > You'd be better off escorting them in normal space, since non-jump
> >ships are so much cheaper than jump capable ones.
 
>   Under G:T?

Yes.  That's the only version of Traveller I have now.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: UFO
Message-ID: <memo.581874@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <20020803212000.97843.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
> > Mexal.
> > 
> > (43 on Friday... "Second childhood? Heck, I haven't
> > done with the first 
> > one yet!")
> 
> 
> A bout of 24-hour flu prevented me from much posting
> or reading yesterday.
> 
> So let me wish a somewhat belated HAPPY BIRTHDAY to
> you.

Why, thank you kind sir. Hope you are feeling better now.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:10:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:10:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: troll optimization on the TML
Message-ID: <memo.581875@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <1aa.6256260.2a7db26e@aol.com>
>  >"Flykiller, front and centre!"
> 
> Ma'am, yes ma'am!  (thud thud thud thud)  Ma'am, Sgt. Flykiller 
> reporting as ordered, ma'am!

"Don't call me Ma'am, I work for a living!"

[And there we'd better leave it, as drilling you is not really very 
Traveller-related!]

Hugs and kisses,

Sergeant Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Bryn=20Monnery?=)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Gauss Round Velocity
Message-ID: <20020803231411.23203.qmail@web13903.mail.yahoo.com>

>>The gauss rifle fires 4 mm, 4 gram needles
(silently) at 1500 m/s, with a Striker/MegaTraveller
penetration of 7 out 
to 600 m and 4 dice of damage (and 3 attacks if you
fire a 10-round 
burst):<<

1,500mps is believable, the highest MV for a real
service weapon I know of is the M-16 firing 5.56mm US
(not 5.56mm NATO) which was a 3.56g round going
1050mps.

However, throwing 4g that fast? That's an ME of
4,500j, sufficient to penetrate 22mm of armour steel
at close range, recoil is less than an SLR though
(only 6 ms-1kg-1).

4,500mps is ridiculous though, twice the muzzle energy
of a .50 Cal, penetrating 68mm of armour steel. 

Bryn


=====
"I knew it on the roof that night. We were brothers, Roy Batty and I! Combat models of the highest order. We had fought in wars not yet dreamed of... in vast nightmares still unnamed. We were the new people... Roy and me and Rachael! We were made for this world. It was ours!"

- Final Line of Blade Runner: Original Preview Cut

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you'll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <168.1196d69b.2a7dba32@aol.com>
References: <168.1196d69b.2a7dba32@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020804093340.D21861@freeman.little-possums.net>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> I was envisioning them as being simply chemical missiles.  In orbit
> around a gas giant would be a good place.

Except for one thing: it's wartime.  The defenders have been there
first with their own sensor platforms and semi-autonomous missiles,
less expensive per unit than yours for the same capability.  Probably
also a few large system monitors and at least a few dozen SDBs.
Furthermore, your launches are detected and tracked automatically and
your mines will be shot before emplacing themselves.

We are talking about a system with an annual economy of around 10 TCr,
remember.  They can afford to spend 10 GCr per year on gas-giant
defence even in peacetime, let alone war.


>  The ships have to go there,

No.  Local traffic refuels at their starports, which are in turn
refuelled from any of thousands of locations, almost certainly
including the very well-defended surface of the mainworld.  Hydrogen
is *not* a scarce resource by any stretch of the imagination.

*You* are far more likely to need to go to the gas giant than the
defenders are, since you don't have the luxury of hanging around to
exploit other sources.  Mining and patrolling the gas giant makes
perfect sense for the defenders.  It makes no sense for you.


>  Or maybe they could be floating just below the surface of the water
> in a system with only water fuel available.They wouldn't have to
> sense much, just a big thing blocking out the sun or maybe a large
> magnetic disturbance, and their target would hardly be moving.

"Big thing blocking out the sun"!?

Do you have any idea how *huge* a planet is?  Earth's oceans cover
more than three hundred million square kilometres.  Even if the ships
coming in to refuel were absolutely blind and picked their refuelling
locations completely at random, and were a hundred metres in diameter,
any given mine would have a one in a hundred billion chance of having
a ship "block out the sun".  Can you drop even one *million* mines?

I think you need to run the numbers a bit.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:37:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:37:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes
References: <memo.572871@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <000301c23b46$ef5882e0$2a74fea9@imogen>

Mexal wrote:
> IMTU, the Imperium taxes its member planets. How that planet
> chooses to raise the money to meet the Imperial tax bill is up
> to them.
> 
> Most just hike their own income tax a fraction of a percent. 
> 
> Some, especially those who are lukewarm about their membership,
> charge a separate 'Imperial Tax' to make the point that people
> are being charged for the privilege.
> 
> Some levy the tax on what they perceive as being the benefits
> of belonging to the Imperium, such as interstellar trade.

This is similar to how I treat taxes IMTU also.  (Actually,  'cos
most of my campaigns have the PCs still in active service its not
usually a feature,  however  ...)  I  also  tend  to  relate  tax
complexity to society's age (look at population, law  level,  and
government type for implied  indicators).  Young  societies  will
only have a few key taxes (whether poll tax, income tax, or sales
tax, maybe a couple of them).  But as societies age more and more
taxes are added.  Older societies have complex  tax  systems  ...
including needing permits (with fees) for just about  everything.
Poll tax, income tax, sales tax, business tax, air/raft  tax,  TV
ownership tax, visitor's tax, residency  tax,  fuel  tax,  excess
size on public transport tax, driving  in  congested  areas  tax,
driving on fast road tax, inheritance tax, internet  data  volume
tax, pet ownership tax, book tax, fast food litter  tax,  capital
gains tax, import tax, export tax, customs duty tax, labour union
membership tax, recreational drug tax (alcohol, tobacco,  other),
education tax, stock market tax, cargo broker  tax,  travel  tax,
hospital tax, legal tax, gun ownership tax, ammunition tax, sword
ownership tax, radio  broadcast  tax,  cellphone  tax,  unmuzzled
Vargr tax, consumption of meat tax, marriage tax, pregnancy  tax,
temple tax, etc, etc, etc ...

At some point tax ceases to be about raising funds and becomes an
instrument  for  social  engineering.  So   a   government   with
separatist leanings on a  world  with  an  "Imperial  Tax"  might
increase it higher than the world's actual Imperial contribution.

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] prejudice (OT)
Message-ID: <55.2b3ad1ac.2a7dc32f@aol.com>

 >> There is no right to be in the military.
 >
 >Okay. "I believe that people have the basic right to self-determination. If
 >the military exists and some people want to be in it, they have the right to
 >try to meet its absolute standards and if they do, to be accepted. IE the
 >right not to be debarred from service on the grounds of a generalization."
 >
 >Is that better?

It's a restatement of the same thing.  No, I subscribe completely to the 
concept of "the needs of the service".  The service collects volunteers it 
finds acceptable, or drafts those it requires.  It just as easily dismisses 
anyone it thinks it doesn't need.  It sets its standards because it knows 
(hopefully) what needs to be done and how to do it.  It is not a business 
opportunity, or a club, or a government social agency.  It is a serious 
organization with a difficult job, and there is no right to its membership.

The military rejects enlistment of those 32 and older (if I recall 
correctly), because of the problems it would encounter if it did accept such 
enlistments.  This sweeping generalization rejects over half of our 
population out of hand, even though some could do the job, but the 
generalization is accepted because the generalization is valid.  Do you think 
it's valid?  I do.  I think that similar evidence exists for a similar 
sweeping generalization of female enlistment as well.  Some people find this 
offensive, but the facts remain, and only political pressures keep them from 
being responded to.  I am putting the needs of the service first.  Others 
have other priorities.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:41:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:41:06 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
References: <168.1196d69b.2a7dba32@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00d301c23b48$adaa52e0$a211bd50@martinjd>

>
> I was envisioning them as being simply chemical missiles.  In orbit around
a
> gas giant would be a good place.  The ships have to go there, they can't
go
> all that fast while scooping, and there is a horizon beyond which they'll
> have trouble seeing (if they can see through a horizon at all).  They
> shouldn't need tremendous sensors for such a location.  Or maybe they
could
> be floating just below the surface of the water in a system with only
water
> fuel available.  They wouldn't have to sense much, just a big thing
blocking
> out the sun or maybe a large magnetic disturbance, and their target would
> hardly be moving.

This type of cheap CAPTOR type mine isn't much good against a serisou
warship, but as a deterrent to small vessels or merchant-based corsairs it,
an option (IMO). No good in deep space but seeded at a choke point like
optimium skimming level they might be dense enough to be useful.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:43:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:43:11 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
References: <memo.581429@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <00e701c23b48$fd6a9560$a211bd50@martinjd>

> 
> Oh, and you may have the scenario after Gen Con UK for the website.
> 

You're a sweetie.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:45:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:45:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Declarations of War
References: <19b.65b1e1c.2a7d49d4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4C1847.3361F3DE@mindspring.com>

DN: What is the status of his fleet at Cipango and Cronor?  If he has that much out in my areas,
then his central fleet is weakened.  If I can put two task  forces each on Cipango and maybe Ninjar
then _his_ logistics train will be cut entirely, and they'll provide a welcoming committee to any
Zhodie ships that straggle back home looking for support.  Further I'll send the fleet raider task
force to shoot up whatever they can in other worlds in that area. Two can play this game, only I'll
do it with concentrated task forces. Let the consule at Cronor yell at _his_ commander:  "There are
a thousand frigates at Querion!  Do something!"
I'll leave Jewell exposed and do that.  Then I'll send out some of my task forces individually to
locate and mop up these isolated forces, using an extensive scout network to relay information on
their activities and ship counts.  I'll plot their courses and attempt to determine where they want
to go.  Not that this would be hard to guess anyway -- I'm sure the Zhodies will bypass Pscias and
go for Rethe if they can.
 
A: Zho fleet elements will strike at weak targets on the border, but you won't know if they retired
afterward or are advancing.
 
DN: Assume they're advancing.
 
A: Your intelligence will be a mess of vessel reports,
 
DN: This can be sorted out.  It may take a few hours, but I'm sure my staff is efficient.( A flurry
of coughing breaks out) and while the attacks on minor worlds are trivial from a military
standpoint, those are imperial citizens being shot up. Yes, they will have to wait. Soon it will be
the Zhodies turn to be shot up.
 
A: Some border  worlds will be assaulted by ground forces and placed under occupation. The subsector
dukes will want those worlds retaken. They'll want the raids stopped.
 
DN: Everything in due time.  The Dukes will have to be big boys.  And likely they are.  When the
Zhodie fleet has been rolled back, I'll send in the troop transports.  Not until then. You're trying
to make me panic.  I won't. If the Zhodies have scattered a lot of their fleet through my sector
then I'll roll them up one at a time with my task forces at no risk to myself. It'll take a while,
but it will be done.  Zhodane is mostly at tech 14, and tech 14 wallows in the mud against tech 15.
I've tried every possible Zhodie fleet combination against the Spinward Marches fleet that I can
think of, pitting 7 AE worlds against what Mora and Trin can build, and his only chance is to stick
together. Instead, I will make the Zhodies panic. In 500 years the Imperium has never taken
offensive action against the Zhodane. The Imperium has always reacted, defended, retreated, lost
worlds. I'll make the Zhodies defend and react to me.  I will cut their lines, sit astride their
repair facilities, and put capital ships where they have not been for 500 years, forcing the Zhodies
to
come to me. Riverland and Cronor used to be Imperial. I will have them back. When the Imperial Fleet
reinforcements arrive, I just might get them.


-From a briefing on a proposed Zhodani campaign to the admirals of the Imperial fleets of the Domain
of Deneb aboard the newly commissioned 'Duke of Deneb' 188-1118.
* A autotranscriber malfunction rendered the Archdukes colloquial 'Joies" into 'Zhodies'

IMMTU ;)
Thanks everyone!
-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:47:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:47:12 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was  COTI website)
References: <20020803222559.7D7BC2793F@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00fa01c23b49$63e1f7c0$a211bd50@martinjd>

> 
> So, to those that think Martan, Loren, et al are "spamming" this group
> I politely offer the suggestion..."Go suck eggs!"  

Heh. If you can't announce trav content on the trav website, what's it for?

That said, the "spam" reference was, I belive, tongue in cheek.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:49:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:49:23 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
References: <136.11daab1b.2a7daa90@aol.com>
Message-ID: <010901c23b49$c1301380$a211bd50@martinjd>

> >Mines, even of a CAPTOR type, don't have much area coverage. You'd need a
>  >lot of them to cover an area, though orbits and other choke points are a
>  >possibility.
>
> Well, yes, that's the point.
>
> Does Traveller have any rules for mines?
>

Now there's an idea for a Traveller's Aide... Mines, Missiles and Drones.
Anyone think they can get 15,000 words and a few T20 ship/item designs out
of the topic?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:51:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:51:08 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <200207300931.43410.red@archonet.com>
References: <a1.2b0beec6.2a7744c0@aol.com>
 <m3n0savvj9.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> <200207300931.43410.red@archonet.com>
Message-ID: <p04330105b9721bbfdb97@[143.232.119.186]>

One thing to remember is that there is a psychological difference 
between having to take direct action that will result in your death 
and doing something this is likely to get you killed.  That last bit 
of hope makes a big difference.  I was at the Texas Air Museum (is 
that what it was called?) and they had one of the buzz bombs the 
Germans were rigging to be piloted.  While it was recognized that the 
mission was likely to be suicidal (the pilots signed a form stating 
they knew that) they did give them parachutes so that they could at 
least _try_ and get out.  (though at dive speeds of 500 mph that 
wasn't considered likely....)
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:54:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:54:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Declarations of War
In-Reply-To: <3D4C1847.3361F3DE@mindspring.com>
References: <19b.65b1e1c.2a7d49d4@aol.com> <3D4C1847.3361F3DE@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m31y9fcxd9.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

I'm afraid that your post was well-nigh unreadable, as it was not
wrapped at 80 chars...

72 is even better: it allows folks who do not re-flow text to quote it
without running over.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The pistol is not a weapon; it is an impertinence.  If two men are to
kill one another, they should do so face-to-face, not from a distance,
like vile highwaymen.      --Arturo Perez-Reverte, The Fencing Master

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 17:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 16:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] prejudice (OT)
Message-ID: <15f.11b58134.2a7dc76b@aol.com>

 >I notice that you're "done here" about the fleet thing. From where I'm
 >sitting, that seems to mean you've dismissed all the arguments I raised and
 >decided that you don't need to think about them. You still haven't
 >adequately explained what you mean to do about an enemy that won't give you
 >that pre-arranged setpiece. Or in any other "real war" situation either.

I think your notion of "real war" and mine are different.  I've explained 
mine over and over again as adequately as I could, and I've tried to respond 
to yours, but I don't feel we're connecting, and I don't feel like my view of 
it is being addressed.  Your stuff was all good, and I didn't dismiss 
anything, but going on 0300 or so I just felt like I was beginning to repeat 
myself, and I'm losing sleep trying to keep up with this mailing list because 
it takes me so long to think and reply.  I think the only way to actually 
address the issues we both brought up is not by talking but by an actual 
campaign game, complete with full background, to see who has it right.  I 
think I'm right, but heck, I'm a virgin, I've never played, so I don't 
actually know.  I'd love to run a game, but I don't see how we could.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 18:09:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 17:09:37 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
References: <15f.11b58134.2a7dc76b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000601c23b4c$a7ca4700$bc0cbd50@martinjd>

I think the only way to actually
> address the issues we both brought up is not by talking but by an actual
> campaign game, complete with full background, to see who has it right.

I think this is the only way - a campaign game, with political rules and
such like. It'd be more simulation than game, but what an interesting
exercise!

Meantime, as we've already agreed, we're coming from such wildly different
points of view that there's no point in further argument... but for the
record, I think you *would* beat me in a HG game, because your viewpoint is
(IMO) more aimed at operating within the game parameters, and your designs
better optimised for that.

But anyway... let's put this interesting debate to bed...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 18:11:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 17:11:13 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Military Psychology
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEKPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <p04330103b9720a71cb73@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <3D4C70A1.852C61C@mindspring.com>

"David P. Summers" wrote:
> 
> At 9:47 PM -0700 8/2/02, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> >  >From: "Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com>
> >
> >>With "freezer pop" soldiers, you might have people who wake
> >>up, fight to the death for a week, then go back to sleep
> >>until the next fight to the death crops up. No down time,
> >>no ability to process what happened before it all starts
> >>again.  Imagine the post-war condition of the average US
> >
> >For this reason, I doubt that the Imperial and Solomani militaries rely
> >heavily on low berth for troop transportation.  The Zhodani may have an edge
> >with better capabilities in psychology.

> It seemed a good deal.  You aren't first into battle (you aren't any
> more likely to get killed since the unfrozen guys get killed first)
> and you don't have to deal with boredom between battles.  Odds are
> you sign up, get frozen, and wake up with all your pay waiting for
> you.
> --IMMTU the frozen watch are a volonteer career force . They are wakened as needed and also every four years for additional training and acclimatization(R&R) if not woken earlier. They receive full pay, and must serve 60 years with wakened time counting double for time in service.



-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 18:21:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 17:21:12 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
In-Reply-To: <memo.581429@cix.compulink.co.uk>
References: <memo.581429@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <200208032020140469.53026F37@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 8/3/2002 at 11:47 PM mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:

>In-Reply-To: <200208031245370897.51623A1B@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
>> BTW, if anyone is attending GenCon this year, be sure to stop by the 
>> QLI booth (#841). Marc will be there as our guest and we'll have copies 
>> of T20 Lite fresh off the presses!
>
>Any plans for a presence at Gen Con UK?
>
>Apart from the T20 lite scenario I'm writing, that is (characters 
>courtesy of Mark Urbin). And our friends at BITS...

Woohoo! No official plans for this year, but next year we will arrange a=
 booth. In the meantime, would copies of T20 Lite to hand out help? I think=
 we have enough time that I might be able to ship some to you after I get=
 back from GenCon here.

>Oh, and you may have the scenario after Gen Con UK for the website.

Thanks!

>PS. Hunter, did you get the e-mail I sent you?

I just went and looked at it after you mentioned it, I must have missed it=
 previously. I sometimes miss them if they come to the email address I use=
 for the TML because they get mixed in with all of the other posts. I do=
 apologize! A reply is on its way.

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 18:30:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Aug  3 17:30:13 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
Message-ID: <F22igG68YuXKL951y1M0002578e@hotmail.com>

From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com>

     "I think he is just trying to draw attention to the new Traveller 
webzine we have opened, rather than anything specific."


Mr. Gordon,

     Why, that is splendid news, sir!  I wish you every success with the new 
webzine.  "More" definitely IS "merrier"!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 18:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Aug  3 17:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] COTI website
Message-ID: <F206YSDMyZFlAWAaPJb00000025@hotmail.com>

From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>

     "The reason I mentioned the site was that we've just added more crunchy 
Traveller goodness, and maybe some tml members haven't seen it yet."


Mr. Dougherty,

     I hadn't and thanks for the heads up!  Mr. Gordon already posted the 
great news about the launch of your webzine.  "More" definitely IS 
"merrier"!
     Thanks again.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 18:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 17:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
Message-ID: <memo.582869@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <200208032020140469.53026F37@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
> Woohoo! No official plans for this year, but next year we will arrange 
> a booth. In the meantime, would copies of T20 Lite to hand out help? I 
> think we have enough time that I might be able to ship some to you 
> after I get back from GenCon here.

It would be good to have you if you can make it. I'll keep you posted on 
dates/locations for next year as soon as WE know :-)

> >Oh, and you may have the scenario after Gen Con UK for the website.
> 
> Thanks!

My pleasure.

> >PS. Hunter, did you get the e-mail I sent you?
> 
> I just went and looked at it after you mentioned it, I must have missed 
> it previously. I sometimes miss them if they come to the email address 
> I use for the TML because they get mixed in with all of the other 
> posts. I do apologize! A reply is on its way.

Reply received & responded to. Sorry, only e-mail I had for you. T'other 
one now safely tucked away for future correspondence.

Oh yes, copies of T20 Lite would be handy. I'll e-mail a postal address 
for you.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 18:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug  3 17:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Gauss Round Velocity
In-Reply-To: <20020803231411.23203.qmail@web13903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B971C9C6.67B02%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/3/02 4:14 PM, Bryn Monnery at littlegreenmen.geo@yahoo.com wrote:

> 
> 1,500mps is believable, the highest MV for a real
> service weapon I know of is the M-16 firing 5.56mm US
> (not 5.56mm NATO) which was a 3.56g round going
> 1050mps.

And the SPIW built by AAI was capable of firing flechettes at around 1500
m/s back in the 1960s.  Also, Hughes managed to get a modified M-16 to fire
at almost double the velocity of a standard round as part of their CAP
project in the mid 1980s.
> 
> However, throwing 4g that fast? That's an ME of
> 4,500j, sufficient to penetrate 22mm of armour steel
> at close range, recoil is less than an SLR though
> (only 6 ms-1kg-1).
> 
> 4,500mps is ridiculous though, twice the muzzle energy
> of a .50 Cal, penetrating 68mm of armour steel.
> 
> Bryn

Not so remarkable when one looks at the performance of current railguns.  We
are speaking of TL12 technology, after all.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 19:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 18:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
In-Reply-To: <memo.582869@cix.compulink.co.uk>
References: <memo.582869@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <200208032111180685.533130CF@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 8/4/2002 at 1:43 AM mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:

>In-Reply-To: <200208032020140469.53026F37@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
>> Woohoo! No official plans for this year, but next year we will arrange 
>> a booth. In the meantime, would copies of T20 Lite to hand out help? I 
>> think we have enough time that I might be able to ship some to you 
>> after I get back from GenCon here.
>
>It would be good to have you if you can make it. I'll keep you posted on 
>dates/locations for next year as soon as WE know :-)

I'm not sure if I can make it, but I would love to and will try like hell!=
 If I can't however, Martin can.

Hunter


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 19:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 18:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Gauss Round Velocity
Message-ID: <200208040113.LZX01145@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>Not so remarkable when one looks at the performance of 
>current railguns.  We are speaking of TL12 technology, after 
>all.

That, and today it's not the size of the rails that are the 
problem (or even the wear and tear).  It's the power 
conditioning equipment.  They're already making progress 
enough to replace the aircraft carrier catapult with a 
railgun.  The power conditioning equipment is already orders 
of magnitude smaller than 10 years ago.  By the time we reach 
TL12...
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 19:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Sat Aug  3 18:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Paging Martin Dougherty
In-Reply-To: <00fa01c23b49$63e1f7c0$a211bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <20020804013343.15643.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>

Martin,

I hadn't heard from you, and was wondering if you got
the info you had asked for.

Let me know, I can send it again if you haven't gotten
it yet.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 19:35:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug  3 18:35:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Gauss Round Velocity
In-Reply-To: <200208040113.LZX01145@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B971D2B3.67B15%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/3/02 6:13 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> 
> That, and today it's not the size of the rails that are the
> problem (or even the wear and tear).  It's the power
> conditioning equipment.  They're already making progress
> enough to replace the aircraft carrier catapult with a
> railgun.  The power conditioning equipment is already orders
> of magnitude smaller than 10 years ago.  By the time we reach
> TL12...

Just in the last couple of years, compulsator power has gone  while size
continues to decline.

For those interested in railguns in general, try
http://home.insightbb.com/~jmengel4/rail/rail-intro.html
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 20:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sat Aug  3 19:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Quick climate question (for my landgrab)
References: <20020803223629.15105.10842.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <005301c23b5b$c2967c20$2a5d8690@computer>

From: Tyge
> The second thing is that climate unless you do have a uniform world (like
> Venus) will vary, so what is standard climate is a bit like saying "this
> is a mountain world". Rather Star-Wars generalization. A world humans
> would endure on likely would not be so generic.

Actually I've been playing with this silly idea a bit over the last few
months.

If a world is sparsely populated enough, the entire population might live in
a single small area. This area would then be "the world" as far as climate,
geography and so on go.

I was working on a bit of a heretical almost-not-Traveller system, where
systems, worlds and so on are abstracted down to a few important areas, like
the area around the starport, the patch of space around the mainworld, and
so on. (If the PCs go outside the "important areas", new "important areas"
can be created.)

Handling worlds "Star Wars style" would be perfectly acceptable in this
case, as long as you understand what you are doing.

Then again, my other heresy is a bit of a fondness for placing colonies on
non-habitable worlds. Basically I see it as simpler to establish an
artificial terrestrial ecosystem than to muck about with an existing
non-terrestrial one. Such colonies would pretty much be domed, and possess a
relatively uniform climate.

Terraforming could occur in the long-term, of course. These are the most
plausible "habitable worlds", IMHO, since they are made to be suitable for
human settlement. But of course, terraforming takes time, and the scale (and
violence!) of the chemical reactions involved suggest that it would take a
long time. You are not just changing the composition of the atmosphere - you
are changing the composition of the crust. Even if you can force the change
to occur very quickly, I doubt that the geology would settle down in much
less than a thousand years or so. That's the blink of an eye in geological
terms, of course.

A terraformed world would have a full set of climates. The situation where
settlement is limited to a specific area might still occur.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com







From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 20:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 19:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] CotI Website
In-Reply-To: <F22igG68YuXKL951y1M0002578e@hotmail.com>
References: <F22igG68YuXKL951y1M0002578e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <200208032212560742.53699E59@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 8/4/2002 at 12:29 AM Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com>
>
>     "I think he is just trying to draw attention to the new Traveller 
>webzine we have opened, rather than anything specific."
>
>Mr. Gordon,
>
>     Why, that is splendid news, sir!  I wish you every success with the
>new 
>webzine.  "More" definitely IS "merrier"!

Thank you sir! I would like to note that the CotI webzine is for ALL=
 versions of our favorite game, not just T20. We're happy to consider=
 articles and material for publication for any ruleset and milieu, along=
 with 'variant' articles as well.

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 20:40:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 19:40:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Superstition (and movies)
Message-ID: <102.1921e4ba.2a7dede0@aol.com>

>>Several years ago, I was toying with the notion of writing a book of war 
>>movie reviews discussing the relative level of accuracy of each (although I 

>>think it has already been done). GETTYSBURG is one of my faves in this 
>>regard. 
>
>Great film.  "General, I have no division..."

I'm torn as to which scene I like better . . . Sgt. Kilrain declaiming on why 
he's fighting the war ("I'll be treated as _I_ deserve, not as my father 
deserved."), Colonel Chamberlain declaiming on why HE'S fighting the war, or 
the whole Little Round Top sequence, or Lee meditating on soldiering's one 
great trap, or Lee reading the riot act to Stuart ("Your cavalry, General, 
are the eyes of this army . . . without them, we are made blind.") -- or any 
one of a dozen or so more. 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 21:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 20:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Superstition (and movies)
Message-ID: <200208040300.MAB00894@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

LKW says
>I'm torn as to which scene I like better . . .

Nope.  Although I hated the movie Blues Brothers 2000, 
there's a scene where Dan Aykroyd "rallies the troops" with a 
major slam against the current music scene.

I have given a similar speech to youth at a Wizards of the 
Coast store who thought that video games were more fun than 
roleplaying games.  Not sure if I got any converts...

But I did drop Loren's name.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 21:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug  3 20:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
Message-ID: <200208040317.MAB01365@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

(We should come up with a longer list of names below)

You may go play video games if you wish.

Remember this: Walk away now and you walk away from your 
interest in history, your ability to tell a good story, your 
ability to translate dreams into reality; leaving the next 
generation with nothing but recycled, unimaginative first-
person shooters, online quasi-historical strategy games, yet 
another multiplayer NFL game, violence-laden driving 
simulations, and mindless revisions of innumerable cute 
Japanese animations. Depart now and you forever separate 
yourselves from the vital gaming legacies of James Dunnigan, 
Steve Jackson, Gary Gygax, Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank 
Chadwick, Andrew Keith, William Keith, John Harshman, 
Professor Barker, 
and Richard Tucholka.

(Doug says, 'Who is Richard Tucholka?' )

Turn your backs now and you snuff out the fragile candles of 
Board Gaming, Miniatures, Fantasy and Science Fiction 
Roleplaying, and when those flames flicker and expire, the 
light of the world is extinguished because the creative 
thought which has moved mankind through the decades leading 
to the millenium will wither and die on the vine of 
abandonment and neglect. 


________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 22:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug  3 21:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22C8B@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <20803.205539.2T1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Time-Travel is a huge no-no. Do I have something against it? Yes and no.
> It's entertaining and fascinating to speculate on, but it would seriously
> unbalance a campaign.
> I also like the idea that consequences of one's actions are
> irreversable...Time Travel far too often gives one an out to correct
> mistakes.

Well, the theoretical work that physicists have done on the possibility
of time travel in the real world says that two things will be true if
it's possible:

1. You can't travel back before the instant the machione is first
   activated.

2. You can't alter the past. You'd have free will to the exact extent
   that you *don't* know what happened. 

This can frustrate the hell out of people. <eg>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 22:21:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sat Aug  3 21:21:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Superstition (and Movies)
In-Reply-To: <d.2aca729a.2a7ca6f7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4D53F6.19862.BBFCC9@localhost>

On 2 Aug 2002, at 23:24, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> Several years ago, I was toying with the notion of writing a book of war movie
> reviews discussing the relative level of accuracy of each (although I think it
> has already been done). GETTYSBURG is one of my faves in this regard. 

My one beef with the movie (other than those I have with the battle itself) is 
that if Pickett had as many men in real life as he had in the movie, he'd 
have been across that field and half way to Washington before the final 
credits.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 22:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sat Aug  3 21:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <3.0.5.16.20020803121034.44ff804c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <008701c23b70$f1af5210$7400a8c0@matt>

> Which Roman was it that got ripped to shreds in Germany?

Varus, IIRC

Matt



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 22:41:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sat Aug  3 21:41:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Landgrab
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMEFHIKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

I'm landgrabbing Macene, Rhylanor 2612


________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 23:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 22:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <3.0.5.16.20020803123126.44ff6796@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3D4CB61E.AF2B843D@mindspring.com>

"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:
> 
> At 11:12 AM 8/3/2002 EDT, you wrote:
> 
> >And that will work in my favor, as much of the Spinward Population lives in
> >the highly protected worlds of Trin, Mora, Glisten, Rhylanor, and Palique,
> >and the main fleet is very close by to Rethe, Louzy, Lunion, Jewell, and
> >Vilis.  That's almost half of the Spinward Marches on those planets alone.
> 
> My Sword World allies will tie down the Lunion and Glisten fleets. 

The Glisten Fleet is waiting to slag the Swordies and their Forinian
allies. 

> Vargr forces will raid the Coreward ends of Regina and Aramis to draw off fleet
> elements from those subsectors.  Raiders and deep penetration fleets will
> be sent into Regina and Villis for commerce and raiding and hit&run attacks
> against starports capable of repairing navy ships.
> 
> My main thrust will come at Louzy/Jewell and Grant/Jewell.  Cutting off the
> Jewell cluster.  Louzy has no gas giant, and Grant only two, making these
> systems easy to hold.
> 
> With the door barred, and my penetrators wrecking havoc, I move on the
> Jewell cluster itself.  Ruby (1005), Emerald (1006), and Mongo (1204) are
> the first targets. All are relatively low tech, and only Mongo has a Naval
> base.  From there, I send more forces to Lysen (1307).  Lysen doesn't have
> enough people or technology to put up a stiff resitience.  These moves
> would be on a timed basis, with fleets moving according to schedule.
> 
> Once everyhing was secure, I'd move the bulk of my fleets to Jewell (1106)
> along with the invasion force.  Jewell would be a tough nut to crack
> 
> (Divergence, I just had the most amazing case of deja-vu.  I clearly
> remembered typing that exact sentiece before, on this computer.  Weird)
> 
> With you reacting to my previous moves, I have you out of position.  I can
> begin the bombardment of targets on the planet with minimal interference.
> I would send troops down *as quickly as is possible* because in orbit, they
> are targets.  On the ground, they are an asset.  My forces at the other
> worlds have couriers stationed with them; ordered to jump out *the moment*
> a large Imperial force engages my force.  This will give me at least a
> little warning.
> 
> Obviously, there are holes in this attack, since I just came up with it.
> The biggest hole I see is a fleet coming through the Federation of Arden on
> my Rimward flank.  Placing pickets at Zircon (1110), Utoland (1209), Pequan
> (1210), and 871-438 (1510) would give me warning, although I am probably
> short on ships at this point.  Just have to hope that the raiders and
> Swordies are doing their job.
> 
> There, a clear plan with goals.  That's what the Imperial player would also
> need.  There is never a time when allowing massive friendly civilian
> casualties is acceptable.
> --
> 
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 23:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shadowcat)
Date: Sat Aug  3 22:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
In-Reply-To: <200208040317.MAB01365@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D4C6254.25855.23272CD@localhost>

(Doug says, 'Who is Richard Tucholka?' )

Stalking the Night Fantastic, Fringeworthy, FTL 2448


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 23:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 22:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] missiles
Message-ID: <74.20c8274f.2a7e1200@aol.com>

 >It [MT] states that a 100 ton bay used as a magazine can hold
 >13500 missiles, but not launch them,

If the bay was tightly packed with missiles that would indicate that each 
missile container is 10 inches square and less than 5 feet tall.  Such 
missiles will be transported over long distances and subject to much shock 
during transport, and may sit in their canisters for years, so the canister 
will be heavily padded and sealed to provide a long shelf-life and to reduce 
the chance of sympathetic explosions.  Is 10 inches by 5 feet of padded 
cannister really big enough to hold a spacegoing missile?

CT HG2 says zero about it, so I just decided that some of a 50 ton or 100 ton 
missile bay was filled with guidance equipment and gunner positions, with the 
rest of the bay occupied by preloaded sealed cannisters containing each 
salvo.  The gunners initiate launch, the cannister pops open and out go 30 
missiles.  I chose 30 because it seemed to me that a bay would gain better 
use of its missiles than a turret battery because it had better guidance 
equipment rather than simply because it used more missiles, and that made 
sense because missile batteries have to bear before they can shoot.  Having 
each salvo in its own cannister also would make it easy to transport, load, 
unload, and mix-and-match.

 >Not that they've ever fired all 50 b/r's. I think the most
 >they ever used in one engagement is 6 b/r's.

You never can have too many missiles.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 23:15:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug  3 22:15:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
In-Reply-To: <3D4C6254.25855.23272CD@localhost>
Message-ID: <B9720629.67BC4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/3/02 9:08 PM, Shadowcat at res053z0@gten.net wrote:

> (Doug says, 'Who is Richard Tucholka?' )
> 
> Stalking the Night Fantastic, Fringeworthy, FTL 2448
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

Hey, I still have my copy of FTL 2448 somewhere.  Fringeworthy too.
--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 23:16:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 22:16:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for the Atro-genius Types (was: System Gen
 Help)
In-Reply-To: <20020803210827.89257.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <c9.261a11c4.2a7d38e2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803175336.3b4f0dc8@pop.mindspring.com>

At 02:08 PM 8/3/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>Would it be possible for a planet be captured into an
>L4 or L5 point on a Gas Giant?

Anything is *possible*, but it would be a one in a billion shot.

1. The developing mass of the gas giant will disrupt planetary formation,
so it would need to be a captured world.

2. It would have to enter the system on the *exact* right course at a
precise time at the right speed.

3. The planet would need to enter on the plane of the rest of the system,
and not encounter anything else.

This is incredibly unlikely. Even if it has happened, it's most likely to
be around an outer gas giant and be a fairly small world.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 23:17:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sat Aug  3 22:17:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <73.238e61b4.2a7db467@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020803180658.3b4f38f8@pop.mindspring.com>

At 06:34 PM 8/3/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>Fully capable men 40 years of age are also barred from enlistment.
There's >a reason.

Yep.  It's called age.  There are definite changes in people between 18 and
40.  Soliders are best when trained as young men.  Or women.

> >Of course, the poor dears can't be expected to understand politics, manage
> >an estate or run a business either. Any you know? they couldn't do it. Not
> >until someone let them try.
>
>They are trying it.  And it's causing far more damage than good.

Wow, you are making a bid for greatness!  You will be in the halls with
such greats as Clif and Leroy.

ObTrav: Worlds with wildly different views on gender roles.  Hit the
players with a world where men are second-class citizens and kept in the
house.  Or one where men and woman are equal, but never seen togehter in
polite society.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 23:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 22:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] 40-year olds
Message-ID: <7e.2b89905d.2a7e16b8@aol.com>

 >>Why does the Army do this?  Because 40 year olds, as a 
 >>whole, have sufficient problems that the Army knows it will 
 >>lose more in attempting to incorporate them than it will 
 >>gain.
 >
 >No, no, no.  The reason the Army won't enlist you is because 
 >the "useful lifetime" of the older soldier is shorter.

Well, now you are citing "the needs of the service" rather than the right to 
serve.  I think the needs of the service should be consistently foremost.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 23:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug  3 22:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] 40-year olds
In-Reply-To: <7e.2b89905d.2a7e16b8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B9720DAD.67BE2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/3/02 10:33 PM, Flykiller@aol.com at Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>>> Why does the Army do this?  Because 40 year olds, as a
>>> whole, have sufficient problems that the Army knows it will
>>> lose more in attempting to incorporate them than it will
>>> gain.
>> 
>> No, no, no.  The reason the Army won't enlist you is because
>> the "useful lifetime" of the older soldier is shorter.
> 
> Well, now you are citing "the needs of the service" rather than the right to
> serve.  I think the needs of the service should be consistently foremost.

It should be noted that the same types of restrictions apply to other
Federal service.  For example, you cannot apply to any federal law
enforcement agency unless you will have enough years of service for
retirement by age 55.  Meaning that after age 35, your too old to be an FBI,
DEA or ATF agent.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug  3 23:48:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug  3 22:48:09 2002
Subject: [TML] missiles
References: <74.20c8274f.2a7e1200@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4CBFD6.E47799B2@mindspring.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> 
>  >It [MT] states that a 100 ton bay used as a magazine can hold
>  >13500 missiles, but not launch them,
> 
> If the bay was tightly packed with missiles that would indicate that each
> missile container is 10 inches square and less than 5 feet tall.  Such
> missiles will be transported over long distances and subject to much shock
> during transport, and may sit in their canisters for years, so the canister
> will be heavily padded and sealed to provide a long shelf-life and to reduce
> the chance of sympathetic explosions.  Is 10 inches by 5 feet of padded
> cannister really big enough to hold a spacegoing missile?

I have slightly different figures but it could be conversion errors. In
MT and IMMTU it is. They only accelerate for 40 or so minutes. Can't do
it in the here and now, but we're talking about an internally consistent
game set in the far future.
 
> CT HG2 says zero about it, so I just decided that some of a 50 ton or 100 ton
> missile bay was filled with guidance equipment and gunner positions, with the
> rest of the bay occupied by preloaded sealed cannisters containing each
> salvo.  The gunners initiate launch, the cannister pops open and out go 30
> missiles.  I chose 30 because it seemed to me that a bay would gain better
> use of its missiles than a turret battery because it had better guidance
> equipment rather than simply because it used more missiles, and that made
> sense because missile batteries have to bear before they can shoot.  Having
> each salvo in its own cannister also would make it easy to transport, load,
> unload, and mix-and-match.

IMMTU those 2 b/r's in the bay are in an internal magazine capable of
handling nuclear or antimatter missiles depending on TL of the ship. The
rest of the bay is filled with targeting and guidance equipment. The
increased factor come from a combination of additional missiles and
better guidance / tracking. Gunners positions are outside the bay except
during maintenance. Additional magazine may added.

The shipping containers are somewhat bigger than 0.1 Kl, that is the
magazine requirement, I'm thinking 0.15 kl or so. 
 
Turrets, unless they have an attached magazine, must be reloaded between
shots. Pity the lone gunner on the free trader humping missiles from the
cargo bay to the turret. All the while being screamed at by the pilot,
navigator, engineer, steward and all the passengers.

>  >Not that they've ever fired all 50 b/r's. I think the most
>  >they ever used in one engagement is 6 b/r's.
> 
> You never can have too many missiles.

I quite agree.

-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was  COTI website)
In-Reply-To: <00fa01c23b49$63e1f7c0$a211bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <20020804060231.5D9A02793A@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/04/02 at 12:55 AM,  "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
said:


>> 
>> So, to those that think Martan, Loren, et al are "spamming" this group
>> I politely offer the suggestion..."Go suck eggs!"  

>Heh. If you can't announce trav content on the trav website, what's
>it for?

>That said, the "spam" reference was, I belive, tongue in cheek.

Perhaps, but spam and eggs are a breakfast treat! <g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:04:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:04:00 2002
Subject: [TML] Alternative Gender Roles in the Third Imperium
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020803180658.3b4f38f8@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <73.238e61b4.2a7db467@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020804010359.00aaa590@minn.net>

The Lord of the Penguins wrote:

>ObTrav: Worlds with wildly different views on gender roles.  Hit the
>players with a world where men are second-class citizens and kept in the
>house.  Or one where men and woman are equal, but never seen togehter in
>polite society.
>-- 
>
>Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Name one. Please.

Preferably between Regina and the Coreward boundary of the 3I. (If not,
I'll write it in as a flashback.)

[Les just woke up after sleeping through the alarm clock's buzzing for one
hour and eleven minutes (a record) thus missing Rocky Horror night at the
Riverview Theatre. Les is not a happy boy right now.]


(Hoping the drive through at the Burger Thing is still open) Les


==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <10.22d0c4c9.2a7e1fae@aol.com>

 >In other words, we're talking about two entirely different situations. I'm
 >discussing defending a hypothetical sector from equally hypothetical (but
 >real for the purposes of the exercise) interstellar fleets, and you're
 >playing High Guard.
 >
 >I don't think we can accept one another's assumptions, so the exercise is
 >pointless..

Well, I'll have to agree there.  You have intelligence information, I don't.  
My fleet is chasing ghosts, while you are concentrating accurately at will.   
 My supply lines are vulnerable, while yours are irrelevant.  You have 
tonnage enough for both a large raiding force and yet also a main fleet 
apparently equal to mine.  Your raiders and decoys advance, do their thing, 
and then fall back, and I never see them coming or going.  You insist I'm in 
a political situation that requires me to defend every last backwater in the 
name of publicity, while you have no such concerns.  And you make it sound 
like I'm defending a bunch of virgin Americans instead of a population that 
has gone through five previous wars and has survived.  You're right, I don't 
accept it.

But I'd love to play it.  You're right, I think victories are achieved 
militarily.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:15:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:15:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
In-Reply-To: <3D4C6254.25855.23272CD@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208032313260.28625-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Sat, 3 Aug 2002, Shadowcat wrote:

> (Doug says, 'Who is Richard Tucholka?' )
> 
> Stalking the Night Fantastic, Fringeworthy, FTL 2448

What's Richard doing these days?  We were sort of friends in the 80's--
knew a lot of the same folks, turned up at parties together, etc.  I think
he may have been at my first wedding.

Anyone hanging out with him, tell him Kiri Morgan says hi-- although I
think you might have to tell him I used to be Kiri Westfall!

Kiri :)

**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] realism
Message-ID: <53.1a729e8e.2a7e21cd@aol.com>

 >  I agree with you that this is a RPG and realism doesn't carry much weight 
 >really...so why not play dnd instead?

Flavor.  Heck, play both.

 >btw.......Imperial nobles IMHO can be modelled after the Catholic Church of 
 >the middle ages. 
 >The held massive amounts of power without holding the reigns of any single 
 >country. Yet no king would dare go against the Pope in those days.

The kings and their subjects believed, and a Pope wields spiritual power.  
Why would an Imperial Emperor be viewed in the same way?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Check Your Landgrabs!
Message-ID: <1ad.629357b.2a7e2295@aol.com>

What is the landgrab?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Paging Martin Dougherty
References: <20020804013343.15643.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <005e01c23b82$c3ebe840$8a0fbd50@martinjd>

> Martin,
> 
> I hadn't heard from you, and was wondering if you got
> the info you had asked for.
> 
> Let me know, I can send it again if you haven't gotten
> it yet.

Uhh? It Morning. Me Brain-Slow. Remind What Information? 
Me Find Breakfast Cereal Now. Kill And Eat Cereal. Cereal Good. 




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:38:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:38:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Paging Martin Dougherty
References: <20020804013343.15643.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <008101c23b82$ff35d320$8a0fbd50@martinjd>

> Martin,
>
> I hadn't heard from you, and was wondering if you got
> the info you had asked for.
>
> Let me know, I can send it again if you haven't gotten
> it yet.

Uhh? It Morning. Me Brain-Slow. Remind What Information?
Me Find Breakfast Cereal Now. Kill And Eat Cereal. Cereal Good.

(I lost ALL my archived email recently, so there's a few loose ends I'm not
even aware of. Is this in reference to the bioweapon stuff, or something
else?)







From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <18c.bd4c936.2a7e26e9@aol.com>

 >>Ah, a general overall fleet attack.  You describe a situation some weeks 
 >>after it has begun.  I think my scouts would give me a more accurate
 picture, 
 >>and sooner.  I will send a message to Deneb to send a fleet.
 >
 >Two months to get there at Jump-6.  Assuming an entire fleet is ready to
 >rush to your aid, 2-3 months to get it to the front.

Oh, I'm sure it wouldn't rush to the front.  That fleet commander will want a 
clear picture of what is going on as he approaches with whatever he 
approaches with.

>>that straggle back home looking for support.  Further I'll send the fleet 
>>raider task force to shoot up whatever they can in other worlds in that
>>area. 

>What are his war goals?  If it is disrupting the Imperial confidence in the
>sector, you will not be able to justify your move politically!  Remember,
>in WWII the US went on the offensive only after Midway.

Well, his goals will be to disrupt general shipping, of course.

 >> Two can play this game, only I'll do it with concentrated task forces.  
Let 
 >>the consule at Cronor yell at _his_ commander:  "There are a thousand 
 >>frigates at Querion!  Do something!"
 >
 >Meanwhile there are a hundred ships at Jewell, Efate, Pixie.. destroying
 >naval bases and advanced starports.

If he gets them in without me seeing them coming.  Why does everyone assume 
I'm blind and he sees all?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <ca.f8487da.2a7e2802@aol.com>

 >Cool.  And in the same time, you have the Zhos coming from everywhere (the
 >Consulate is much smaller, y'know) and the Zho's destroying the ares you
 >were supposed to be defending!  If you are lucky, you'll be killed in
 >battle, and won't be hung for gross incompetence.
 >
 >Mission is everything.  If you have been attacked, your first duty as an
 >Imperial officer is to defend the state.  Taking the war to the enemy's
 >home is a political decision.

It seems I am to be the passive blind recipient of whatever comes my way, 
while my opponent is free to act with clear vision.  You're right.  I'd lose.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 00:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug  3 23:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <a.22f0514d.2a7e28ce@aol.com>

 >> >You're thniking of everything in terms of a mapboard and counters. I'm
 >> >discussing warfare.
 >>
 >>I'm thinking in terms of what the actually constructed vessels will do 
 >>according to the rules, yes.  You are thinking in terms of imagining what
 you 
 >>think various effects will be.  I'll take the hardware -- such as it is -- 
 >>and I'll have the last word.
 >
 >You are really setting records for honking people off here, you know that?

That was offensive?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 01:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Sun Aug  4 00:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] 40-year olds
In-Reply-To: <200208031505.LZD01427@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <003e01c23c23$c7b6c0c0$1001a8c0@sauron>

John T. Kwon wrote :
> Flykiller says
> >Why does the Army do this?  Because 40 year olds, as a 
> >whole, have sufficient problems that the Army knows it will 
> >lose more in attempting to incorporate them than it will 
> >gain.
> 
> No, no, no.  The reason the Army won't enlist you is because 
> the "useful lifetime" of the older soldier is shorter.  Not 
> because you can't pass the PT test.  
> 
> Training is an expense - and once they spend the money, 
> they expect a useful time period after that, including 
> reserve time.

And in fact, the military is known to waive this rule if 
you are already trained. My father was offered enlistment 
and the automatic rank (in that if he accpted the job, he 
got the rank) of Flight Lieutenant when he was 38, because 
at the time the Air Force needed experienced and trained 
civil engineers _now_, rather than in six years when they 
had trained some. 

> Most Delta Force soldiers are between the ages of 35 and 40.  
> The Army does not have a problem with age as it pertains to 
> performance.

Anyone who harbours any misapprehensions about the combat 
effectiveness of people over forty, needs to go and look 
at the accomplishments of Choyun Miyagi. 

I believe this may have the been the person who 
"The Karate Kid"'s mentor, Mr. Miyagi, was modelled on. 

Or how about the European 747 pilot who qualfied as a "samurai" 
shortly after his 40th birthday? (The newspaper report said 
"samurai", what I think they meant was he was the first European 
to be granted the top rank in kenjutsu.)
  
And then there were the first US astronauts....

If you want both fitness _and_ lots of combat experience, you have 
to get people who over 35. Anyone younger, unless they were born 
to the PLO or something similar, just doesn't have the experience. 

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 01:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 00:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
Message-ID: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>

 >But anyway... let's put this interesting debate to bed...

Concur.  Please ignore any further posts I've made on this.

And thanks.  I've been dying for years to talk to someone about this.  It was 
great.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 01:20:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 00:20:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
 traveller)
Message-ID: <880f68582e.8582e880f6@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Date: Saturday, August 3, 2002 8:57 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in 
traveller)

<<snip>>
> 
> While there is likely a connection between PTSD and rapid 
> reintegration back
> into 'normal' life, experts have also linked PSTD to the extensive 
> use of
> operant conditioning of soldiers that occurred after WWII.
> 
> What provisions does the Imperium make for combat veterans 
> returning to
> civilian life?  Are long voyages home sufficient?

<tongue-in-cheek>

Well, considering how many Trav characters end up with Gun and/or Blade 
as mustering-out benefits, the 3I military doesn't seem to have a major 
problem with PTSD sufferers going postal.... ;-)

</tongue-in-cheek>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 01:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug  4 00:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>

What I'd like to read and participate in is an analysis of fleet
composition, weapons, defensive system and tactics in GURPS Traveller,
and how they differ from other incarnations of Traveller space combat
systems.  Unfortunately I lack the necessary experience with other
Traveller space combat systems :/

From what I can see, the weapons and defensive equipment available in
GT starship design have just been translated from other Traveller
design systems without regard to how effective they actually are in
GURPS.

I presume that similar things happened between other versions of
Traveller rule sets.  Will it happen again with T20?  Will there be a
starship design and space combat supplement for that?


Do people find it desirable to explore the various consequences of
different combat models, or would they prefer to have the same model
across all incarnations of Traveller?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 01:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sun Aug  4 00:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology (was re: warship optimization in
 traveller)
In-Reply-To: <880f68582e.8582e880f6@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020804024508.00aac9c0@minn.net>

At 10:19 AM 8/4/2002 +0300, john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:

>Well, considering how many Trav characters end up with Gun and/or Blade 
>as mustering-out benefits, the 3I military doesn't seem to have a major 
>problem with PTSD sufferers going postal.... ;-)
>
></tongue-in-cheek>

I don't recall postal workers being a problem back when the LBB's came out.

Though there was a bit of fuss being raised over Sun Set Loony and his
followers.  ;-)


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 01:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Sun Aug  4 00:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
 <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <200208040353580835.54A1D865@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 8/4/2002 at 5:34 PM Timothy Little wrote:

>I presume that similar things happened between other versions of
>Traveller rule sets.  Will it happen again with T20?  Will there be a
>starship design and space combat supplement for that?

T20 has the starship design rules (along with everything else!) in the main=
 book. They are based directly off of High Guard (v2). There are some minor=
 differences, but ships designed with either system should be readily=
 interchangable.

There are two sets of combat rules presents, a basic set that is abstract=
 and deals more with the roleplaying than mechanics, and the advance combat=
 system which is much more tactical and uses 2 'megahexes' to plot long=
 range and short range tactical movement.

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 02:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 01:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: HULL THICKNESS LIMITATION
Message-ID: <200208040804.g7484Pw19092@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Flykiller@aol.com
>Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat HULL THICKNESS LIMITATION
...
> >HULL
> >185.000 tons standard, 2,590.000 cubic meters, Planetoid Configuration
>
>In a Planetoid Configuration of this size the maximum thickness of the outer 
>hull is 0.6 meters and likely much less.  If this ship were 185,000 tons, the 
>maximum outer thickness of the outer hull would be 6.0 meters.  Yet in both 
>cases they are considered to be naturally armor 3.  I think there should be a 
>lower limit on allowable tonnages for Planetoid and Buffered Planetoid ships.

  Sure, but that function also applies to armour on ships.

  See also Mr. Thrash' essay on internal structure issues for large ships.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 02:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 01:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
 <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

Hello Tim,
  The missile damage rules in GURPS TRAVELLER make missile craft that much
  more deadly than they were in any other TRAVELLER incarnation.  I
  personally do not use the GURPS STARSHIP combat rules as presented, nor
  am I pleased with rendition of the Meson weapons in the GURPS TRAVELLER
  rule set.  Having said that however, I would be pleased to discuss the
  topic matter you proposed...

            Hal



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 02:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Aug  4 01:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020803180658.3b4f38f8@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <3.0.5.16.20020803180658.3b4f38f8@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m3lm7njaot.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes:

> At 06:34 PM 8/3/2002 EDT, you wrote:
> 
> > Fully capable men 40 years of age are also barred from enlistment.
> > There's a reason.
> 
> Yep.  It's called age.  There are definite changes in people between
> 18 and 40.  Soliders are best when trained as young men.  Or women.

When I visited the Naval Academy at the end of my brother's plebe
summer, I recall a certain amount of puzzlement when watching the
plebes parading by.  A portion of them were smaller than my 11 yr. old
brother, and skinnier too (a fair accomplishment, that).  I recall
thinking to myself that I though only 17+ yr. olds were allowed in.
Then I took a closer look.  Every one of those `boys' was a girl.

In fairness, at the parade at the end of his midshipman career the
differences were not quite so pronounced.

> ObTrav: Worlds with wildly different views on gender roles.  Hit the
> players with a world where men are second-class citizens and kept in
> the house.

I believe that at least one of those already exists...

> Or one where men and woman are equal, but never seen togehter in
> polite society.

That'd be odd.  What's the mechanism?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
But it's more than that, of course; bad spelling just isn't respectable.
You may, perhaps, want to lament this fact.  You are free to do so.  The
fact remains.                                            --John Mitchell

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 02:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Sun Aug  4 01:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was  COTI website)
In-Reply-To: <20020804060231.5D9A02793A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPGEAHEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Was that spam and eggs
or spam, spam egs and spam?

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Eris Reddoch
Sent: Sunday, 4 August 2002 2:03 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was COTI website)


On 08/04/02 at 12:55 AM,  "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
said:


>> 
>> So, to those that think Martan, Loren, et al are "spamming" this group
>> I politely offer the suggestion..."Go suck eggs!"  

>Heh. If you can't announce trav content on the trav website, what's
>it for?

>That said, the "spam" reference was, I belive, tongue in cheek.

Perhaps, but spam and eggs are a breakfast treat! <g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 02:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Sun Aug  4 01:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPGEAHEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPGEAHEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
Message-ID: <200208040445160020.54D0CCA6@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 8/4/2002 at 4:21 PM Antony Farrell wrote:

>Was that spam and eggs
>or spam, spam egs and spam?

Ok gotta keep it on topic!

Pardons if this has actually been covered previously.

So does SPAM survive the Rule of Man, the Long Night and into the Third=
 Imperium? If so, is it just a Solomani thing, or have the Vilani and=
 others come to enjoy this uniquely Terran... ummm .... stuff? I'm just=
 picturing a group of adventurers finding an old Rule of Man cache,=
 stockpiled with cans of good old SPAM!

Inquiring minds want to know!

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 02:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Sun Aug  4 01:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <20020803203103.12400.34750.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentr
 al.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804013527.009f91d0@mailhost.efn.org>

>The program was successful.  The number of troops firing in combat went from
>10-30% to over 90%.  Many psychiatrists and others in the field have
>suggested that this operant conditioning may have had deleterious effects in
>that it short circuits the natural human reluctance to kill.

Which was, of course, precisely the intended result.  The real trick is 
turning that reflex back ON again after you've deliberately broken 
it.  This is a little harder than beating a sword back into a plowshare; 
more like unscrambling an egg.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 03:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 02:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <25.2b8bf94f.2a7e4e43@aol.com>

In a message dated 04/08/02 09:24:19 GMT Daylight Time, ruhl@4dv.net writes:


> Or one where men and woman are equal, but never seen togehter in
> polite society.

That'd be odd.  What's the mechanism?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

One option is visible fertility - humans are unusual in that we don't know 
when women are in oestrus. In a society where that didn't exist there is 
likely to be tight social control over gender interaction.

You might see harem based families (K'Kree) or you might see a society where 
males and females have parrallel societies with extremely ritualised methods 
of interaction, particularly if women tend to become fertile at around the 
same time.

One interesting possibilty is Vagr society where it would be obvious to every 
male within quite a distance that the high ranking, young female en route to 
take part in a political wedding and placed in the care of the PCs by her 
doting (if somewhat inflexible, powerful and violent father) has just come 
"on heat" for the first time...

Do male Aslan mark their territory?

"Elmer that danged tomcat's peeing on the airlock again! Go own scat, shoo - 
you pee on it you pay for it!"

Charles

I addressed some cheerful chit-chat at the man opposite but was rewarded with 
grunt. I tried the man next to me but he just looked at the gentleman I had 
tried first and said "Do you know what he's talking about?" At this point I 
realised I was getting out my depth but the Dean stepped in and saved me, "Oh 
don't worry about it" he said, "They're mathematicians - we never talk to 
them."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 05:12:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 04:12:10 2002
Subject: [TML] 40-year olds
Message-ID: <memo.591614@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <003e01c23c23$c7b6c0c0$1001a8c0@sauron>
> And in fact, the military is known to waive this rule if 
> you are already trained. My father was offered enlistment 
> and the automatic rank (in that if he accpted the job, he 
> got the rank) of Flight Lieutenant when he was 38, because 
> at the time the Air Force needed experienced and trained 
> civil engineers _now_, rather than in six years when they 
> had trained some. 

I was invited back once, to a Reservist unit, at age 40, living the other 
end of the country to their base, and with responsibility for a small 
child. I had skills they were after...

... didn't work out in the end, but I had fun visiting them :-)

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 05:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 04:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <20020804054809.26103.98485.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17bJb8-0007Wi-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

> In mail you write:
> 
> > Time-Travel is a huge no-no. Do I have something against it? Yes and
> > no. It's entertaining and fascinating to speculate on, but it would
> > seriously unbalance a campaign. I also like the idea that
> > consequences of one's actions are irreversable...Time Travel far too
> > often gives one an out to correct mistakes.
> 
> Well, the theoretical work that physicists have done on the
> possibility of time travel in the real world says that two things will
> be true if it's possible:
> 
> 1. You can't travel back before the instant the machione is first
>    activated.
> 
> 2. You can't alter the past. You'd have free will to the exact extent
>    that you *don't* know what happened. 

Actually, from what I've read, those are only true *if* causality is 
always preserved.  If it is possible to utterly toss causality out the 
window, then time travel can involve whatever you want.  It's 
interesting to me that preservation of causality seems something 
almost all phyicists assume to be true w/o having any absolute 
necessity that the world actually operates this way.  We haven't 
seen any obvious causality violations, but until last century we also 
never saw any obvious relativistic effects.  Personally, I think the 
universe would be a considerably more interesting (in all possible 
meanings of this word) place is causality is not strictly preserved.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 05:34:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sun Aug  4 04:34:05 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
References: <ca.f8487da.2a7e2802@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4D10E8.FE3A4CDB@mindspring.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> 
>  >Cool.  And in the same time, you have the Zhos coming from everywhere (the
>  >Consulate is much smaller, y'know) and the Zho's destroying the ares you
>  >were supposed to be defending!  If you are lucky, you'll be killed in
>  >battle, and won't be hung for gross incompetence.
>  >
>  >Mission is everything.  If you have been attacked, your first duty as an
>  >Imperial officer is to defend the state.  Taking the war to the enemy's
>  >home is a political decision.
> 
> It seems I am to be the passive blind recipient of whatever comes my way,
> while my opponent is free to act with clear vision.  You're right.  I'd lose.
> 

Damn mind rapers! Lets kill some Joies!


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and
inconsistent with it. But all science, in fact, rests on a
basis of faith, for it assumes the permanence and uniformity
of natural laws - a thing which can never be demonstrated
                               -Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 06:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Aug  4 05:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <memo.561259@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3D4DC34C.24200.5FD4B2@localhost>

On 2 Aug 2002 at 23:54, Megan Robertson wrote:

> In-Reply-To: <02Aug2.151432pdt.119054@gw.city.vancouver.bc.ca>
> > > On Fri, 2 Aug 2002 Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> > 
> > <SNIP>
> > 
> > > I've been trying to decide whether or not to killfile you for a 
> > > while--
> > > thanks for helping me out.
> > 
> >  Moi aussi.
> 
> I am laughing too hard to issue the requisite command.
> 
> Mexal.
> former infantry sergeant of the female persuasion.

Somehow I don't think this idea will get very far over here. About 1-in-
6 (IIRC) of our military personnel are female, and there are now no 
positions that they are prohibited from entering (Ops Diver and SAS 
being opened to female personnel about a year ago). Moving females back 
into separate support organisations would utterly cripple what little 
military we still have.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 06:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Aug  4 05:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <40.21b2d6f0.2a7cfea7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4DC641.25712.6B6046@localhost>

On 3 Aug 2002 at 5:38, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>  >And I daresay that if we have women serving in full combat capacity
>  >under the regimes of either seperate standards (i.e. where they must
>  >not meet the same standards as men) or reduced standards (e.g. I
>  >understand that two-man stretcher teams are now four or more), we will
>  >see plenty of human beings who die miserably because their comrades
>  >are not up to the task.
> 
> Actually, I'll bet we won't.  The military is talking now about how much 
> future warfare will be on the level of special ops, utilizing local troops 
> and only sending in special forces to coordinate bomb strikes, like in 
> Afghanistan.
> 
> Army?  What army?

I'll believe that when I see it. This sort of talking has always turned 
out to be wishful thinking in the past, and I see no reason why it 
isn't now. It's all very well while you're thrashing low-tech thrid-
worlders, but sooner or later there'll be another first-world vs first-
world scrap, and spec ops teams relying on vast amounts of support just 
won't cut it.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 06:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Strain)
Date: Sun Aug  4 05:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020804113405.2614.19201.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001001c23bb4$101d4160$92aa5940@dixienet.com>

MISSION: Get EVERYBODY on the list.
METHOD  act in a resonably manner, be polite, but challenge EVERYTHING they
say in response to your comments.
Call them idiots - in a polite manner of course. Act as if YOUR word is
God's and thier's at best ravings.


My take:  POINTLESS -- Why pointless? Because you set out to waste bandwith
with false agruements!

This was the FIRST  'agreement" made in one complete week.
************
>I don't think we can accept one another's assumptions, so the exercise is
 >pointless..
From: Flykiller@aol.com
Well, I'll have to agree there.

*************
From: Flykiller@aol.com ate: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 02:11:58 EDT
>In other words, we're talking about two entirely different situations.
(SNIPPED OUT) ...ercise) interstellar fleets, and you're >laying High Guard.
I don't think we can accept one another's assumptions, so the exercise is
pointless..

Well, I'll have to agree there.  You have intelligence information, I don't.
(SNIPPED OUT)    like I'm defending a bunch of virgin Americans instead of a
population that
has gone through five previous wars and has survived.  You're right, I don't
accept it.

But I'd love to play it.  You're right, I think victories are achieved
militarily.

CONCLUSION:  guy wanted to argue, no play a game - but starting fights IS
his game.

SETup.... THIS IS SIMULATION ONLY NOT A LIVE EXERCISE

FFW map.. place all units as described on map according  to fleet doctrine
using ALL FFW RULES.

Opposite side SETSUP on DIFFERENT map. Opponents TRY to find out "what's
there" using ships moving one jump per week

ONLY the Master sees BOTH fleet positions - EVER. Opponents find out by
ships finding each other. Politial rules prevent FLEETS ( 5 ships per
group ) from crossing borders with declarations of war made.

Think you can handle that? If not SHUT UP!! John Strain


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 06:38:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Sun Aug  4 05:38:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for the Atro-genius Types (was: System Gen
 Help)
In-Reply-To: <20020804054809.26103.98485.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentr
 al.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020804141737.00ac52f0@mail.pi.se>

Mr.Berry wrote:

> >Would it be possible for a planet be captured into an
> >L4 or L5 point on a Gas Giant?
>
>Anything is *possible*, but it would be a one in a billion shot.
>
>1. The developing mass of the gas giant will disrupt planetary formation,
>so it would need to be a captured world.
>
>2. It would have to enter the system on the *exact* right course at a
>precise time at the right speed.
>
>3. The planet would need to enter on the plane of the rest of the system,
>and not encounter anything else.
>
>This is incredibly unlikely. Even if it has happened, it's most likely to
>be around an outer gas giant and be a fairly small world.

I'm not so sure - I'm not an astrophysicist - but this depends on 
definitions. If the world comes from some other system I'd agree it is very 
unlikely.

But if the world is captured from a different orbit in the same solar 
system, possibly because of orbital migration, this may be a not too 
uncommon occurrence. The possibility of having gas giants in such 
resonances is investigated in this interesting arXiv preprint by Gregory 
Laughlin and John Chambers titled "Extrasolar Trojans: The Viability and 
Detectability of planets in the 1:1 Resonance"

  http://arXiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0204091

Maybe it would be courteous to provide some sort of description of such 
links to the people on a mailing list not having time to check  all links 
up, I'll recycle a brief recap I myself did somewhere else. If you are not 
interested in planet generation, skip to the next message as this gets 
long-ish.

Laughlin/Chambers think there is a possibility for large planets to be in a 
1:1
resonance. That is, one planet makes one orbit while the other makes one.
We have examples of such resonance among moons around Saturn, and among
Jupiter's large bunch of Trojan asteroids. If we had a space station in
LG-4 or LG-5 it would be in 1:1 resonance with the Moon, and so on.
LG-points are only stable for certain masses. You do not have such around
Pluto/Charon or around most binary stars. However, that is only one type of
1:1 orbit resonance possible - Saturn's moons give more examples of moons
"switching" orbits and such.

What L/C does is identify three types of 1:1 resonances stable for a solar
system lifetime. The first one is a situation where the planets and the
star form an equidistant triangle, or if you so like, one planet is in the
other planet-sun system's LG-4 point. This situation would be stable for
planets where the combined mass is less than 0.03812 of the primary (so it
would work on Jupiter-size worlds), the planets would oscillate in
tadpole-like orbits but in principle they would stay. However, if the
planets were disturbed out of this stability, it is possible to have
another kind of resonance.

In this second type, the planets involved are of roughly equal size move
around in their orbit it about 180 degree separation (one planet on each
side of the star). This is also a stable situation, though there is a bit
of oscillation. In this case, the planets cannot be as massive. For a
sun-type star, the limit is about 0.4 Jupiter masses, so Saturn-size gas
giants could be stable. (This is an example of horseshoe orbits)

The third and more odd type is where two planets have different orbits and
by interaction at exchange orbits, so to speak. Imagine having one planet
with low eccentricity and one with high eccentricity. These worlds would on
the order of tens to hundreds of orbits (shorter for heavier planets) cause
the other world to get gradually more or less eccentricity by exchanging
angular momentum. This situation could be stable for planetary masses up to
about 0.035 of the primary.

The first two examples of 1:1 resonance may be rather common, or so the
authors think. It is possible for planets slightly smaller than Jupiter
that it is possible to form a secondary planet core in the Trojan point, as
lower-mass gas giants do not "clear out" the disc as efficiently. Another
possibility is that the proto-planets collide and create a double core, and
as this double planet migrate inward* in the early solar system the
stability radii decrease, and the planet-planet orbit is instable and the
worlds end up in the first type of resonance, which can be further
disturbed out to the second one. (Or vice versa)

The third type is bound to be more rare, but it could happen in a situation
where three larger planets interact. One is ejected and the remaining two
form a 1:1 angular momentum resonance. One could imagine the odd climate
shift a stable moon around such a gas giant would experience when over a
800-year span the eccentricity changes drastically.

*Another paper suggests the chances are very high jovian worlds migrate
from where they are formed. Either inward or outward. Possibly our Jupiter
represents a minority which formed at the right time to stay just outside
the snow line, and is among the 10-15% of planetary systems having such
jovians. Side note: planets in 1:1 resonance would likely keep the
resonance when in orbital migration.

Enough said.

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 06:39:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Aug  4 05:39:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <memo.572870@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3D4DC91F.22100.769295@localhost>

On 3 Aug 2002 at 13:13, Megan Robertson wrote:

> Mexal (not sniper-trained - in the British Army they only accept right 
> handers... Grrr.)

Ah. That was never a factor in my case - I pissed off the wrong officer 
shortly before the paper-work was to be passed along. :(

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 07:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug  4 06:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
Message-ID: <200208041300.MAV01414@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Azalais Malfoy asks
>What's Richard doing these days?  

He's got a website up - 
http://users.twave.net/b13/
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 07:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sun Aug  4 06:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020804113405.2614.19201.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <001001c23bb4$101d4160$92aa5940@dixienet.com>
Message-ID: <003601c23bb9$68924480$0616bd50@martinjd>

>
> ONLY the Master sees BOTH fleet positions - EVER. Opponents find out by
> ships finding each other. Politial rules prevent FLEETS ( 5 ships per
> group ) from crossing borders with declarations of war made.


We did this in a Napoleonic context. What frustration! Corps commanders were
players, as was army commander (me). Just getting them to send meaningful
information back to me was well-nigh impossible.

At one point, I sent the fifth repetition of an order to attack to my
cavalry corps commander (I could see him from my command position). The
order? "Enemy infantry and guns deploying to your front. Attack them.
Charge! Charge! Charge them NOW! Attack them immediately!. Confirm receipt."
(I was getting cranky)

The confirmation came back "Cannot attack. My cuirassiers are in front of my
lancers. Must redeploy for maximum effectivenesss." (He'd been fiddling with
his deployments for 3 hours game-time and was now under artillery fire)

My final order: "To: General XXXX (Cuirassier division commander, NPC).
Arrest or shoot your corps commander, and attack enemy to your front.
Immediate. Deliver via Corps HQ."

Well, it got him moving.

But seriously, the comm delay and limited intelligence turned a wargame into
a nightmare. A system of courier simulation and player-subordinates who
won't necesssarily obey orders helps too...








From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 07:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun Aug  4 06:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was COTI website)
Message-ID: <F202T3kMUVfNIJWNDIT00000440@hotmail.com>

From: "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>

     "IMO, I don't mind occasional reminders of "what you've got" and where 
it is, I don't mind announcements when you've got something new and 
exciting, I don't mind you asking us for our input on things, and I
don't mind you giving us your input on things. In fact, I appreciate it, and 
hope you keep it up!"


Mr. Reddoch,

     You are, of course, correct sir.
     My lame attempt at humor backfired and was in poor taste.  Yet another 
Whipsnadian faux pas inflicted on the List. (sigh)
     Mea culpa.

     "So, to those that think Martin, Loren, et. al. are "spamming" this 
group I politely offer the suggestion..."Go suck eggs!"

     I've already bought a dozen, will that be enough?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 07:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Scott Ayres)
Date: Sun Aug  4 06:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Movies
In-Reply-To: <102.1921e4ba.2a7dede0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020804135041.73249.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com>

re: GETTYSBURG movie...
  The same crew is putting together at least 2 more
movies in the same vein as GETTYSBURG - based on
original author's son's works.  Not sure if they're
for theater or TV release. Possible '03 release?

re: Movie historical (and book) accuracy
  I hang out with several military history types
(professors and non-profs).  There's a few complaints
with GETTYSBURG's (and others') historical accuracy or
getting the wrong people in the wrong roles.  Some 
can't stand Short's accent, Berringer's false beard,
or this aspect or that.  I enjoyed the movie
regardless.  _Something_ is better than nothing.
  Case in point: PEARL HARBOR.  I took my kids.  They
liked it, I shuddered.  But at a recent 13th b-day
party for my daughter, her friends _wanted_ to see it.
 Who'd of thought that five 13-yr girls would want to
see a "war" movie?  My kids (10 to 16'ish) attend some
of the finest public schools in my state or the
nation, yet have trouble remembering who was who (and
why) in what war.  I am amazed how much of what I grew
up with and thought "important" is now so much chaff
(WW2 was vs. the Axis _not_ the VC, etc.)

  So how does this relate to Traveller?  A recent
thread concerned the movie & book for STARSHIP
TROOPERS.  ST is surely food for the inaccuracy of
book to movie topic, yet it does generate interest in
the genre.  Flipping through the channels a couple
weeks and it was on cable...  I watched the portion
where the troop ship was falling apart after receiving
fire from the planet.  I'd never noticed the external
scenes to the degree I did before: individual people
were falling out (away) of the ship as it ripped
apart.  Don't remember ever seeing that in a movie
before.  I also noticed the proximity of ships to each
other.  I know it's "Hollywood" and _this_ movie,
but... 

OT: has anyone ever concerned the proximity of ships
to each other in close orbit and planetary
bombardment?  How close is too close?  Does a fleet
turn the night sky bright with the multitude of
invading ships?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 08:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 07:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <200208040353580835.54A1D865@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
References: <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
 <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804100230.026b7e58@192.168.0.1>

At 03:53 AM 8/4/2002 -0400, Hunter Gordon wrote:
>On 8/4/2002 at 5:34 PM Timothy Little wrote:
> >I presume that similar things happened between other versions of
> >Traveller rule sets.  Will it happen again with T20?  Will there be a
> >starship design and space combat supplement for that?
>T20 has the starship design rules (along with everything else!) in the 
>main book. They are based directly off of High Guard (v2). There are some 
>minor differences, but ships designed with either system should be readily 
>interchangable.
>There are two sets of combat rules presents, a basic set that is abstract 
>and deals more with the roleplaying than mechanics, and the advance combat 
>system which is much more tactical and uses 2 'megahexes' to plot long 
>range and short range tactical movement.

I'll knock off a couple of ship designs for review by the list when I get 
my copy.
Until then, I have two nice new canes from CaneMasters to keep me amused.
Ok, one's for my dad, but I gotta do some quality check on it first...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Blend 'B', meanwhile, is a PROUD blend, defiant yet petulant...a blend
that grabs you, shakes you by the collar and cries, 'ACCEPT me, damn you,
or turn me away-BUT FOR GOD'S SAKE DON'T POLLUTE ME WITH NON-DAIRY
CREAMER!'" - Tripp Biscuit while coffee tasting.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 09:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 08:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: 40-year-olds
Message-ID: <194.ae860e2.2a7e9fc4@aol.com>

After GDW went OOB, but before the SJ Games offer came up, I tried to get a 
job outside of gaming (technical writing, etc.). Nobody (NOBODY) was much 
interested in hiring me, and a couple of people (one at the employment 
office, one at a job fair I attended) said that "at your age" absent an MBA 
or a really advanced degree in something in demand at the moment, I had 
little hopes of a job where I wasn't asking "You want fries with that?" or 
mopping floors.

I tried getting work outsid of gaming -- nobody wants you if you're 40+. The 
military is not unusual in this regard.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 09:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Rutherford)
Date: Sun Aug  4 08:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: 40-year-olds
In-Reply-To: <194.ae860e2.2a7e9fc4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804112452.012467a8@mail.comcast.net>

At 11:18 AM 8/4/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>After GDW went OOB, but before the SJ Games offer came up, I tried to get a
>job outside of gaming (technical writing, etc.). Nobody (NOBODY) was much
>interested in hiring me, and a couple of people (one at the employment
>office, one at a job fair I attended) said that "at your age" absent an MBA
>or a really advanced degree in something in demand at the moment, I had
>little hopes of a job where I wasn't asking "You want fries with that?" or
>mopping floors.
>
>I tried getting work outsid of gaming -- nobody wants you if you're 40+. The
>military is not unusual in this regard.

It's just as well for the rest of us that you were "forced" retain a job 
*in*side gaming!


Bill Rutherford
worj@comcast.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 10:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 09:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was COTI website)
In-Reply-To: <F202T3kMUVfNIJWNDIT00000440@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804120536.025855a0@192.168.0.1>

At 01:16 PM 8/4/2002 +0000, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
[snip]
>     I've already bought a dozen, will that be enough?

I'd say that the humble apology was enough.
Mr. Whipsnade should watch his cholesterol.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ferret: Chaos with fur, claws and an odd smell.
          http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 10:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Sun Aug  4 09:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Taxes
In-Reply-To: <85.1f38e034.2a7d1f78@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000501c23bd4$ab74f6b0$6501a8c0@Darla>

IMTU the Imperium gets at 10% tariff on the value of all goods shipped
interstellar, plus 10% of the fares charged for interstellar passage.
The Imperium does not levy any direct taxes on individuals.

Payments from planetary governments to the Imperium vary widely, and are
always on a case-by-case basis for each world, codified in the treaty by
which the planet joined (i.e. recognized the authority of) the Imperium
and/or the feudal contract between the planet's ruling noble and the
Emperor.

TWB

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com [mailto:tml-
> admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Flykiller@aol.com
> Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 6:59 AM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Taxes
> 
>  >TCS says its a head count
> 
> Actually, it doesn't.  It says "... ; Cr500 is the amount of naval tax
> paid
> by the average citizen ; ..."
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 10:34:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Sun Aug  4 09:34:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Pilots of the Future (was: warship optimization)
In-Reply-To: <002e01c23ad4$cbcbbd00$1d17bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <000601c23bd4$abfd1270$6501a8c0@Darla>

> 
> Main problem with drones is the ECM/ECCM/Jamming seesaw.
> 
> And control lags over combat distances in space, OC.
> 

That may be true of drones, but unmanned combat aircraft will be
autonomous to a large degree.  I suspect that "video game reflexes" will
not be useful skills in operating them - mission planning will be more
important.

TWB


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
References: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPGEAHEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com> <200208040445160020.54D0CCA6@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3D4D5E9F.4000707@telocity.com>

Hunter Gordon wrote:

>On 8/4/2002 at 4:21 PM Antony Farrell wrote:
>
>>Was that spam and eggs
>>or spam, spam egs and spam?
>>
>
>Ok gotta keep it on topic!
>
>Pardons if this has actually been covered previously.
>
>So does SPAM survive the Rule of Man, the Long Night and into the Third Imperium? If so, is it just a Solomani thing, or have the Vilani and others come to enjoy this uniquely Terran... ummm .... stuff? I'm just picturing a group of adventurers finding an old Rule of Man cache, stockpiled with cans of good old SPAM!
>
>Inquiring minds want to know!
>
Wait! There's good spam, and there's old spam, but there just *ain't* no 
good old spam! <g>

And yes, canned spiced ham has survived  IMTU, at least....along with 
canned hash, canned tuna, canned groat, ad nausium...<g>

Eris


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was COTI website)
References: <F202T3kMUVfNIJWNDIT00000440@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D4D5FBB.9000503@telocity.com>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

> From: "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>
>
>     "IMO, I don't mind occasional reminders of "what you've got" and 
> where it is, I don't mind announcements when you've got something new 
> and exciting, I don't mind you asking us for our input on things, and I
> don't mind you giving us your input on things. In fact, I appreciate 
> it, and hope you keep it up!"
>
>
> Mr. Reddoch,
>
>     You are, of course, correct sir.
>     My lame attempt at humor backfired and was in poor taste.  Yet 
> another Whipsnadian faux pas inflicted on the List. (sigh)
>     Mea culpa.
>
>     "So, to those that think Martin, Loren, et. al. are "spamming" 
> this group I politely offer the suggestion..."Go suck eggs!"
>
>     I've already bought a dozen, will that be enough?
>
>
>     Sincerely,
>     Larsen
>
Why,  of course, Mr. Whipsnade!  But please don't forget the spam. As I 
said spam and eggs, a breakfast treat. <g>

Eris


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:11:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:11:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <m3y9bndi8f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEKFEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>> > That kind of setup might be cheap when it came to starship life
>> > support costs, but I imagine the impact on the soldiers' psyches
>> > would be extreme.
>>
>> Not if they were only asleep during jumps.  "Good morning, we're
>> passing through Regina and the captain decided you should all spend
>> some money there for a few days."  And soldiers won't be spending
>> years on ships anyway--they'll only be there when in transport.
>> Kind of hard to practice armored maneuvers on the mess deck.
>
>No, 'cause they'd still not get the full rest needed.  My
>greatgrandfather and grandfather took well over a month to return to
>the US after WWI & WWII; my father was back in college in 48 or so
>hours after his time in Vietnam.  Granted, that's _some_ rest time,
>but it's not nearly enough.  You don't find as much PTSD in fellows
>who got to slowly make their way back home, adjust to the new reality
>&c.; you find quite a lot in guys who are plucked up from one
>situation and dropped in another.
>

This brings up an interesting point. Does it go the other way too? Most U.S.
soldiers had a good month between the time they left CONUS and the time they
hit the lines in Europe, even during the most active time of the war. Today
soldiers in Georgia can be in a war zone in less than 48 hours. Does this
also contribute to PTSD? How does it effect their combat readiness.

ObTrav: This would not be a problem for interstellar troops, since minimum
travel time is a week. Maximum travel time could be much higher. (Which is
why I especially have a problem with GT designs which use bunkrooms.) Could
a really large troop transport incorporate a habitat module to use as a
training area? It strikes me that a holoventure module might work really
well for battledress units and vehicle drivers (tank, fighter, etc.) but
that regular troops will need more room to practice small unit tactics,
unless the holoventure studios work as good as ST holodecks.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
 <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]>

At 4:14 AM -0400 8/4/02, hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>Hello Tim,
>   The missile damage rules in GURPS TRAVELLER make missile craft that much
>   more deadly than they were in any other TRAVELLER incarnation.  I
>   personally do not use the GURPS STARSHIP combat rules as presented, nor
>   am I pleased with rendition of the Meson weapons in the GURPS TRAVELLER
>   rule set.  Having said that however, I would be pleased to discuss the
>   topic matter you proposed...

Missiles are very damaging.  However, they also can be intercepted. 
The utility of missiles depends on how many missiles you have vs how 
much point defense you foe has.  I think, in the setting, there is 
the usual game of trying to get you measures to overcome the foes 
countermeasures.  However, dropping missiles entirely, going heaving 
into point defense, and  using other weapons for a kill can be a 
viable route.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for the Atro-genius Types (was: System Gen
 Help)
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020804141737.00ac52f0@mail.pi.se>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020804141737.00ac52f0@mail.pi.se>
Message-ID: <p04330101b97312dbe956@[198.123.22.192]>

Note: you don't come in from out of the solar system and drop into an 
orbit.  To capture _any_ body from outside the solar system requires 
interactions with other bodies (otherwise the velocity you built up 
comeing in just pushes you right back out again).  If you sling shot 
around something and loose velocity, you will settle into some sort 
of orbit (barring collisions).  However, this orbit will be perturbed 
over time and generally settle into some smaller subset of stable 
orbits.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <02080313391901.00601@linux>

>  >> How serious is the trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took place
>  >> because the small island of England was not self-sufficient in either
>  >> agricultural or industrial matters, but I don't think this situation
>  >> will arise on many _planets_.  
>
>
>cough cough
	How many dinky airless rockballs with large populations do the world 
generation rules permit? 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:36:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:36:20 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
In-Reply-To: <B9701696.6773B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B9701696.6773B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <02080313573002.00601@linux>

>
> Just to bring this back to Traveller,  how do the Imperium portray it's
> adversaries?  We can probably guess that the Solomani do a bit of
> dehumanizing propaganda against their Imperial foe.  How does the Imperium
> portray the Zhodani and Solomani to it's citizenry.  And is there an
> Imperial Ministry for Propaganda?

	I seem to recall an article in the old JTAS about racial epithets for the 
5th Frontier War. It was printed at about the time of FFW release. So, yes, 
racial slurs for the buzzheads and doggies and pinkies...etc. can be 
considered canon. 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:37:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:37:34 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CF7@USCHM203>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22CF7@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <02080314013103.00601@linux>

On Friday 02 August 2002 01:43 pm, you wrote:
> >The Germans, and
> >
>  >particularly the Japanese were horribly dehumanized.  We made our enemies
>  >into monsters so then it was OK to exterminate them.
>
> If there was any dehumanizing of the Germans and Japanese, they did it
> themselves through their own brutality.
> _______________________________________________
>	Project 741 tested biological warfare on helpless POW's (Americans)
The US Government tested/tests biological agents on its own citizens.

	My point is that in war,...all sides are capable of being monstrous bastards.
Part of propaganda's job is to make the 'good guys' look good.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:38:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:38:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com>
References: <e5.1bb37424.2a7bbe36@aol.com>
Message-ID: <02080314301904.00601@linux>

> That's all local.  If a system is really strapped, I'd send some fleet
> escorts to help out.  War is not always imminent, after all.  Too, while
> the Imperium cares about some weapons, why should it care about the
> smuggling of anything else?  "Admiral!  Smugglers are transporting illegal
> cargos of cigarettes to Zivije!"  "Ensign, go there immediately.  Buy me a
> few packs."
>
 I would think the Imperium would frown on many black market activities.
It avoids tribute to Emperor.
It undermines legitimate corporate profits and business practices.	
	As the Emperor is an active share-holder in many corporations and 
subsidiaries, it bites into his take directly. Not to mention the large 
amount of influence that mega-corps hold at all politiccal levels, they would 
insist even at a local level that the government put a stop to smuggling.
	Governments exist to ensure stable trade.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 11:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Aug  4 10:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <fc.1bc430d6.2a7d06b7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEKGEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
 >big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.

I think that we had a long thread on this subject last year. One of the
things suggested was the use of X-ray Laser det mines. I posted a design
which allow either a ship or remote sensor platform to detonate the mines
when a ship came within range. The mines consisted of a nuclear warhead that
created a single pulse Xaser. This gave them the necessary range, a single
10,000 mile GURPS Traveller hex, to be effective weapons. Some one else
posted a TNE design for the same thing.

As I recall they were not that easy to find but would have been a much
bigger challenge to merchant and patrol craft than to capital ships. As with
all such weapons their greatest effect was to require opposing ships to be
looking for them and perhaps avoid them.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <ca.f8487da.2a7e2802@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020804105439.349f0cc8@pop.mindspring.com>

At 02:47 AM 8/4/2002 EDT, you wrote:
> >Cool.  And in the same time, you have the Zhos coming from everywhere (the
> >Consulate is much smaller, y'know) and the Zho's destroying the ares you
> >were supposed to be defending!  If you are lucky, you'll be killed in
> >battle, and won't be hung for gross incompetence.
> >
> >Mission is everything.  If you have been attacked, your first duty as an
> >Imperial officer is to defend the state.  Taking the war to the enemy's
> >home is a political decision.
>
>It seems I am to be the passive blind recipient of whatever comes my way, 
>while my opponent is free to act with clear vision.  You're right.  I'd
>lose.

Not if you keep your mission in mind.  Defense of the Imperium.  Put battle
fleets around critical systems like Jewell and Regina.  Have cruiser
squadrons covering approaches like those I detailed in my "Jewell Cluster"
plan.  You can take the offensive, but only after you have secured you own
territory from attack.  Hell, send raiders into Zho forward bases like
Cipango and Farreach. They won't do much real damage, but it will tie down
some of his reinforcements to rear defense. A squadron of 3,000 dton
destroyers can raise merry havoc against an orbital port.

An important part of defense is divining enemy intentions.  Take my Jewell
gambit.  You will have scouts as well, and looking at my moves, it will
soon become obvious that my main goal is Jewell itself.  Patience is the
Admiral's friend.  Look for your chance to exploit the enemy strategy to
your own ends.  Hassle him.  Take out outposts like Farreach, which secures
Efate and the Regina frontier along with giving you another axis of attack.
 Jewell is a high-pop world, and can hold out *for a time.*  In this case,
you aren't sacrificing worlds in order to seek out a decisive fleet
engagement; you are making strategic decisions that save the majority of
the important worlds of the sector.

Gather your reinforcements, then strike.  When you do attack, it must be an
overwhelming blow to the enemy.  Additional reinforcements are too far away
to make a difference. Go in with at least a 3:1 advantage in both tonnage
and firepower.  Try to make the engagement come at Jewell.  This way, you
will be able to stir up the anger and resolve of your forces with images of
a billion people under the yoke of the mind-raping scum.  This will be a
factor.  

After Jewell, assuming you win, do you go further?  Not unless Duke Norris
tells you to do so.  You, Admiral, are an instrument of policy.  Policy is
made by the bosses.  Let's say that Norris ate his Wheaties this morning.
You now face the opposite problem, planning an invasion.  The first thing
you do is define the exact goals of the mission: what are the exact
objectives.

Let's define it this way: remove the Zhodani from the Spinward Marches.
Your objective is obviously going to be Chronor.  Plan from there.  Main
attack, supporting attack, screening elements, ground troops.  With Chronor
neutralized, the other worlds in Jewell and Querion are isolated and can be
picked off one by one at your leisure, either through military action or
diplomatic efforts.

The point I, and the others are trying to make is that sub-battleship ships
serve a purpose.  A fleet needs ships it can spare for escort duty,
garrisoning small systems, feints, minor attacks.. every battleship not
built pays for a handful of cruisers or dozens of frigate/destroyer sized
ships.  Think versatility.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Embrace Fascism.    The uniforms look cool


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:29:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:29:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Check Your Landgrabs!
In-Reply-To: <1ad.629357b.2a7e2295@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020804105844.353f9bfc@pop.mindspring.com>

At 02:24 AM 8/4/2002 EDT, you wrote:
>What is the landgrab?

Claim a world in one of the published settings.  Detail the hell out of it.
Use any system you like. Publish the results here for everyone to admire.
Or put it up on the web, and post the link here for everyone to click.

Started during a hideously off-topic period of the TML's history by some
weirdo with a thing for penguins.  We've had a pretty good time with it.
--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                   - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:30:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:30:12 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was  COTI website)
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPGEAHEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <20020804060231.5D9A02793A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020804110019.353f3a82@pop.mindspring.com>

At 04:21 PM 8/4/2002 +0800, you wrote:
>Was that spam and eggs
>or spam, spam egs and spam?

Spam spam spam spam spam spam spam lovely spam, wonderful spam...
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:31:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:31:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Paging Martin Dougherty
In-Reply-To: <008101c23b82$ff35d320$8a0fbd50@martinjd>
References: <20020804013343.15643.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020804110258.353f8dd6@pop.mindspring.com>

At 07:48 AM 8/4/2002 +0100, you wrote:

>Uhh? It Morning. Me Brain-Slow. Remind What Information?
>Me Find Breakfast Cereal Now. Kill And Eat Cereal. Cereal Good.

Eek! A cereal killer loose in the TML!
-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of
limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:32:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:32:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <10.22d0c4c9.2a7e1fae@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020804111013.353f8596@pop.mindspring.com>

At 02:11 AM 8/4/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>But I'd love to play it.  You're right, I think victories are achieved 
>militarily.

Some of the time.  But you think tactically, while we are think strategically.

"Amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics."
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Death is an experience best avoided, as it makes
reliable internet access difficult to obtain.
                       - Xaonon, in alt.atheism

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:33:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:33:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
In-Reply-To: <200208040317.MAB01365@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020804111806.2cb706d8@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:17 PM 8/3/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>(Doug says, 'Who is Richard Tucholka?' )

Doug has everything Tri-Tac every published, he thinks, and an autographed
copy of "Stalking the Night Fantastic", thank you very much  :)
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:34:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:34:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <003601c23bb9$68924480$0616bd50@martinjd>
References: <20020804113405.2614.19201.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <001001c23bb4$101d4160$92aa5940@dixienet.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020804112446.2cb71a74@pop.mindspring.com>

At 02:17 PM 8/4/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>
> ONLY the Master sees BOTH fleet positions - EVER. Opponents find out by
> ships finding each other. Politial rules prevent FLEETS ( 5 ships per
> group ) from crossing borders with declarations of war made.

I played in a double-blind 5FW game as the Zhodani commander.  We had a
bunch of house rules, and each fleet had a serperate Admiral.  It took
months, but I followed the basic attack plan I outlined in my other post.

War in the Third Imperium is a game of hide & seek.  Intelligence is
everything.  Planning is everything else.  I had a good plan, and the
"staff understood their roles, and how much discretion they had inside
their missions.  Third Assault Fleet's commander was decorated for his
audacious feints that drew four Imperial fleets away from relieving Jewell
and chasing him all over Lunion and Glisten.

When it was over, the Jewell cluster had been brought into the fold of
civilization.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry      gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"Well, thanks to the Internet, I'm now bored
 with sex." - Fry, Futurama

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:36:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:36:34 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Baboon Class Missile Frigate CREWS
Message-ID: <200208041828.g74ISow12329@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Flykiller@aol.com
>Subject: [TML] RE: Baboon Class Missile Frigate CREWS
...
>I think the big problem with this kind of boat is not their inefficiency, but 
>their crews.  It would be hard enough to get competent and willing captains, 
>pilots, and engineers with the necessary decades of experience for a few 
>heavily armed and armored capital ships that have adequate living space and 
>support cargo.  Finding thousands of deployable captains, pilots, and 
>engineers who would be willing to live and fight in barely-adequate 
>Volkswagens (as it were) would be a major problem.  I think this difficulty 
>should be reflected in their skill levels.  I know TCS specifically and 
>categorically states otherwise, but I think this issue is just too big and 
>reasonable to so breezily ignore it.

  I agree that it's a major issue, although the demographics and
economy of the 3I/OTU make it not critical for warship fleets.
The fighter swarm forces will have problems - the question might
be how good the commanders for any light warships will be?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Movies
Message-ID: <1a2.65f889d.2a7ed1b3@aol.com>

>  I hang out with several military history types
>(professors and non-profs).  There's a few complaints
>with GETTYSBURG's (and others') historical accuracy or
>getting the wrong people in the wrong roles.  Some 
>can't stand Short's accent, Berringer's false beard,
>or this aspect or that.  I enjoyed the movie

>regardless. 

It is as close as Hollywood ever gets (and frankly, it is as close as we can 
ever hope to get). Movies ALWAYS compress events, eliminate characters, and 
re-arrange things in the name of drama. But then again, so did the novel (THE 
KILLER ANGELS) hat the movie was based on. 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 12:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 11:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
Message-ID: <3D4D776E.B78FF865@mail.cswnet.com>

>Depart now and you forever separate 
>yourselves from the vital gaming legacies of James Dunnigan, 
>Steve Jackson, Gary Gygax, Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank 
>Chadwick, Andrew Keith, William Keith, John Harshman, 
>Professor Barker, and Richard Tucholka.

Professor Barker {?} info please.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Question for the Atro-genius Types (was: System Gen     Help)
In-Reply-To: <p04330101b97312dbe956@[198.123.22.192]>
Message-ID: <20020804190454.32509.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

So the answer is that, while unlikely, it is possible.

Makes for an interesting detail, and I kinda like it.

Thanks for the help everyone.

Paul


--- "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> Note: you don't come in from out of the solar system
> and drop into an 
> orbit.  To capture _any_ body from outside the solar
> system requires 
> interactions with other bodies (otherwise the
> velocity you built up 
> comeing in just pushes you right back out again). 
> If you sling shot 
> around something and loose velocity, you will settle
> into some sort 
> of orbit (barring collisions).  However, this orbit
> will be perturbed 
> over time and generally settle into some smaller
> subset of stable 
> orbits.
> -- 
> ______________________________
> summers@alum.mit.edu
> (This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in
> Boston, but I'm in California.)
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:06:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:06:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
Message-ID: <181.c196c70.2a7ed4f5@aol.com>

MJ Dougherty writes:

>> > Why do you want fighters to be more effective?
>>
>> So that they can have an outside possibility of damaging Capital ships
>at
>> high TL
>
>And again, why do you want this? Barring me swallowing some and suffering
>some strange kind of poisoning, no amount of flies can beat me in a straight
>fight. My feeling is that fighters are good for screening and keeping
>merchies in line. Big ships are for killing big ships.

"Screening?"  If, by rule and design, fighters can't affect anything much 
more than 100 times their size, AND can't get sufficient squadron or fleet 
level coordination to act as a coherent battery, then they have no chance of 
acting in a screening role *either*, since they won't have sufficient rating 
to affect passing missile barrages and can't be effectively put in a place to 
intercept those missile even if they *could* stop any.

Allowing for whole squadrons to have that outside chance *at range* means the 
opponent has to respond to them with escorts or fighters of their own, which, 
of course, leads to mounting of direct-fire weapons on the fighters as well. 
If you are only using "fighters" as extensions of your sensor-space, the way 
they are used and fielded changes completely. The first change will be that 
no one carries squadrons into war, only raids. Capital ships will carry only 
enough to use as "sensor drones", and no ship will likely be designed with 
massive rapid-launch capabilities (ie. launch tubes).
It's simple, really. If fighters aren't a threat in a line battle, then your 
opponent will have never built his own after seeing yours.

As a TNE fan, Martin, you should be very familiar with this argument, because 
this is *exactly* the line of thought that lead to the big det-laser missiles 
of TNE, and a combat system that would make such torps useful.

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Movies
In-Reply-To: <1a2.65f889d.2a7ed1b3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B972CA46.67D2A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/4/02 11:51 AM, GDWGAMES@aol.com at GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

>> I hang out with several military history types
>> (professors and non-profs).  There's a few complaints
>> with GETTYSBURG's (and others') historical accuracy or
>> getting the wrong people in the wrong roles.  Some
>> can't stand Short's accent, Berringer's false beard,
>> or this aspect or that.  I enjoyed the movie
> 
>> regardless. 
> 
> It is as close as Hollywood ever gets (and frankly, it is as close as we can
> ever hope to get). Movies ALWAYS compress events, eliminate characters, and
> re-arrange things in the name of drama. But then again, so did the novel (THE
> KILLER ANGELS) hat the movie was based on.


More info on the next Ron Maxwell film "Gods and Generals" can be found at
the web site http://www.godsandgenerals.com/

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Check Your Landgrabs!
Message-ID: <3D4D7CCE.FE3EF458@mail.cswnet.com>

Flykiller asks;
>What is the landgrab?

Oh, my good man, a landgrab is one of the most beautiful things in all
the universe. I highly recomend building one for yourself today!
For more info, go to this sight:

http://www.downport.com/landgrab/

Now, if I can put my Arba Real Estate hat on...

There are some good open frontier systems just waiting to be snatched up
in the Lunion and Vilis subsectors; Adabicci [has a class A port],
Rabwhar [has a scout base and a megacorps lab]. Over in Vilis, Vilis
itself hasn't been grabbed, plus Choleosti and Margesi. 

Get'em while there hot!

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:19:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:19:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
In-Reply-To: <3D4D776E.B78FF865@mail.cswnet.com>
References: <3D4D776E.B78FF865@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <kbvqkus21i0n0h2fmi9s0sq6fh7j9jnuj8@4ax.com>

On Sun, 04 Aug 2002 13:50:22 -0500, Roseberry
<rosebee@mail.cswnet.com> wrote:

>>Depart now and you forever separate=20
>>yourselves from the vital gaming legacies of James Dunnigan,=20
>>Steve Jackson, Gary Gygax, Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank=20
>>Chadwick, Andrew Keith, William Keith, John Harshman,=20
>>Professor Barker, and Richard Tucholka.
>
>Professor Barker {?} info please.

Empire of the Petal Throne, IIRC.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was  COTI website)
Message-ID: <3D4D7DDB.3B73E32A@mail.cswnet.com>

<snippaged>
>>Was that spam and eggs
>>or spam, spam egs and spam?

>Spam spam spam spam spam spam spam lovely spam, wonderful spam...

"Bloody Vikings!"

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Paging Martin Dougherty
Message-ID: <3D4D7EA9.6E1529D3@mail.cswnet.com>

>snippaged<
>>Uhh? It Morning. Me Brain-Slow. Remind What Information?
>>Me Find Breakfast Cereal Now. Kill And Eat Cereal. Cereal Good.

>Eek! A cereal killer loose in the TML!

Obviously an eater of NIETZCHE POPS, The Uber Breakfast!
I prefer Space Flakes (tm) myself.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
In-Reply-To: <3D4D776E.B78FF865@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEKJEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>Depart now and you forever separate
>>yourselves from the vital gaming legacies of James Dunnigan,
>>Steve Jackson, Gary Gygax, Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank
>>Chadwick, Andrew Keith, William Keith, John Harshman,
>>Professor Barker, and Richard Tucholka.
>
>Professor Barker {?} info please.
>
>Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>
Why the creator of "Empire of the Petal Throne" possibly the most complex
game world ever created, certainly one of the most complex not based on
Western mythology/ideology. (In this case I would count Traveller as based
on Western mythology since it is based on the classic science fiction of the
golden era, which is certainly a western literary mythology.)


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:30:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:30:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Paging Martin Dougherty
Message-ID: <memo.598862@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <3D4D7EA9.6E1529D3@mail.cswnet.com>
> Obviously an eater of NIETZCHE POPS, The Uber Breakfast!
> I prefer Space Flakes (tm) myself.

I go for Cthulhu-hoops every time :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:36:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:36:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Paging Martin Dougherty
In-Reply-To: <memo.598862@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020804193546.5A5D02793A@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/04/02 at 08:28 PM,  mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan
Robertson) said:

>In-Reply-To: <3D4D7EA9.6E1529D3@mail.cswnet.com>
>> Obviously an eater of NIETZCHE POPS, The Uber Breakfast!
>> I prefer Space Flakes (tm) myself.

>I go for Cthulhu-hoops every time :-)

I think that's marketed as Captain Cthulhu on this side of the pond.
;->

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:40:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:40:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
In-Reply-To: <3D4D776E.B78FF865@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <20020804193937.669AD2793A@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/04/02 at 01:50 PM,  Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com> said:

>>Depart now and you forever separate 
>>yourselves from the vital gaming legacies of James Dunnigan, 
>>Steve Jackson, Gary Gygax, Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank 
>>Chadwick, Andrew Keith, William Keith, John Harshman, 
>>Professor Barker, and Richard Tucholka.

>Professor Barker {?} info please.

Professor Barker created the "Empire of the Petal Throne" setting as a
youth, and has been adding to it for low these many years. The only
fantasy I ever played (as opposed to GMing) in, until recently, was an
EotPT game.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: meduim navies
Message-ID: <3D4D82E0.C26DA8F1@mail.cswnet.com>

Well, I just got done last night with Regina subsector, and came up with
a problem with the TL6- worlds. Basically, using the mercenary rule from
small navies just makes these worlds have massive merc navies [in Enopes
case, almost a Merc TCS]. So, until I can think up
a better way to tweak TL6- worlds, I'm just going to remove them
entirely. They'll still be counted for the 30% Imperial Navy tax, but
the rest of their budget won't be used. This I think gets it close to
the way it is in the FFW game. 

As for tweaking TL6- worlds, when I get done posting this I'm going to
go dig out the TNE Path of Tears supplement and see if that might be
usefull. I dunno.

I'll post up tax returns for Regina and Lanth, plus repost Lunion with
the removed TL6- worlds, latter tonight probably.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 13:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 12:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Survivability Assumption  (was: warship optimization)
Message-ID: <197.adccb8b.2a7edf13@aol.com>

Flykiller writes:

> >All I am doing is letting Fighters act like Turrets. If several turrets
>can
> >concentrate their fire to increase their effectiveness, why can't several
> >fighters?
>
>You could extend this same concept to spinal mount vessels.
>

You could, but you'd be inventing extensions to the charts to do so (as in, 
what is the rating of a pair of Meson-T's?), while the concept of grouping 
turrets is already part of the game and is incorporated into the charts.  
From a RL standpoint, grouping spinal fire also requires that you get several 
*large* ships to all point at one target long enough to acquire, aim, and 
fire.  Missiles aim themselves, and laser turrets (to carry the fighters as 
battery concept to defense) are articulated and thus also aimable without 
involving the engines.

In case you are wondering, this is my long way of saying "no, you can't".

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 14:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 13:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Failing planets
Message-ID: <98.29e35cc8.2a7ee374@aol.com>

Flykiller writes:

> >If planets are so self sufficient, then why does TNE describe planets
> >failing because they were cut off from interstellar trade?
>
>Don't know.  Doesn't make much sense to me.  I can see it happening here
>and there of course, but not en masse.  TNE may state it, but that's not 
>necessarily a reason to just swallow it.

Which just tells me you haven't read TNE. Not to worry, it's a common sin on 
this list.

It is based on the supposition that listed TL is "locally producable and 
maintainable" and the observation (made here many times) that many worlds 
don't seem to make sense in terms of environment and TL match (type B 
atmosphere and TL2, for example). TNE explained these cases as being 
supported by trade. If the trade dries up, and the world can't maintain the 
equipment that keeps it alive, eventually the world dies.  Add Virus and the 
after-effects of a 24-year long war that went into scorched earth tactics for 
the last five, and planets that *had* sufficient TL before may no longer. All 
it takes is that Virus-infected system to kill all the on-hand spares and 
blow up the factory, starport, and internal delivery systems (not uncommon 
for a Virus strike), and your life-support systems are dead in a few days. If 
Mr. Virus also sealed all the doors out of your arcology and turns the 
security systems on anyone who looks organized, then even a green and 
pleasant world can turn into a tomb.

Note that, for all the Virus-haters out there, the Black War and plain old 
human panic/stupidity can accomplish much the same results, often just as 
quickly.

I'm not going to take this further right now, as it drags in many of the TMLs 
classic battles, including the nature of Tech Level, commerce models, Virus, 
and the randomness of UWPs.

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 14:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 13:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
Message-ID: <137.122edd2d.2a7ee774@aol.com>

Flykiller writes:

> >Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
> >big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.
>
>What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other sensor systems
>you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?
>

Not the point. In space, mines are *terrain*, not ambushers.  Got an enemy 
force vectoring your way? Drop mines behind you in an area you think it 
likely he *has* to fly through. If he sees the mines, he may break off early 
enough to miss them, giving you either an escape option or (if properly 
deployed) a positional advantage for returning the attack.

What really affects mines is the same factor that affects fighters: will they 
be big enough to have *any* effect, even if they score a hit?

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 14:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug  4 13:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
Message-ID: <200208042039.MBL00293@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Roseberry asks
>Professor Barker {?} info please.

Empire of the Petal Throne...
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 15:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Aug  4 14:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
In-Reply-To: <137.122edd2d.2a7ee774@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B972E6BF.67D85%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/4/02 1:24 PM, GypsyComet@aol.com at GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:

> Not the point. In space, mines are *terrain*, not ambushers.  Got an enemy
> force vectoring your way? Drop mines behind you in an area you think it
> likely he *has* to fly through. If he sees the mines, he may break off early
> enough to miss them, giving you either an escape option or (if properly
> deployed) a positional advantage for returning the attack.

And also possibly making his sensors go active.  If the mines are stealthy
enough, he won't be able to detect them with passive sensors.
> 
> What really affects mines is the same factor that affects fighters: will they
> be big enough to have *any* effect, even if they score a hit?

That is the question.  But mines will be far cheaper than fighters.  No life
support, rudimentary controls, simple drive systems.  Probably fear cheaper.

--
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
-- 
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 15:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Asbury)
Date: Sun Aug  4 14:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Professor Barker??
References: <20020804190005.1656.32029.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000601c23c02$0d81b280$08984c51@oemcomputer>

>>Depart now and you forever separate
>>yourselves from the vital gaming legacies of James Dunnigan,
>>Steve Jackson, Gary Gygax, Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank
>>Chadwick, Andrew Keith, William Keith, John Harshman,
>>Professor Barker, and Richard Tucholka.
>
>Professor Barker {?} info please.
>
>Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

Empire of the Petal Throne!

It was a early D&D derivative by the above mentioned prof.

It had a very oriental feel with him having a background in linguistics (and
it counted as sci-fi due to the strange background history... Humans and
other aliens try to terraform a planet, much to the anoyance of it
inhabitants, entire solar system disappears into a void, leaving everybody
up the creak, a few thousand years regression (theres no iron on planet!)
and alternate cultural development  later and enter the PCs.

It spawn numerous expansions, and two  novels bu M.A.R. Barker himself.

Major prob with this world? pronouncing the words! He did a Tolkien and
created his own languages and scripts.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 16:00:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug  4 15:00:34 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com> <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net> <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020805075953.A24737@freeman.little-possums.net>

hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> Hello Tim,
>   The missile damage rules in GURPS TRAVELLER make missile craft that much
>   more deadly than they were in any other TRAVELLER incarnation.

Oh.  Here was I thinking that the missiles were suboptimal and could
have been designed better and cheaper.  For example, it is trivial to
design a missile turret that can launch and control 20 missiles per
combat turn, each costing less than half as much with better
acceleration and damage.

If they are already vastly better than in previous Travelelr versions,
there's not really much point I guess. :-/



>  I personally do not use the GURPS STARSHIP combat rules as
>  presented,

Do you use something close, or a drastic re-write?  (Or not at all?)


> nor am I pleased with rendition of the Meson weapons in the GURPS
> TRAVELLER rule set.

They do look a little icky to me too.  What bothers you most?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 16:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug  4 15:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com> <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net> <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]>
Message-ID: <20020805081803.B24737@freeman.little-possums.net>

David P. Summers wrote:
> Missiles are very damaging.  However, they also can be intercepted.
> The utility of missiles depends on how many missiles you have vs how
> much point defense you foe has.

Yes, I'd noticed that too.  In particular, the existing missiles and
launchers can be greatly upgraded to achieve much better results
against point defense for rather little cost.  However, given other
comments it looks like doing so would take it even further away from
previous versions of Traveller. :-/


> However, dropping missiles entirely, going heaving into point
> defense, and using other weapons for a kill can be a viable route.

It seems that would be a good idea if your ship needs to spend a long
time away from resupply, but not good for actual battle capability.
Using the full Vehicles rules, I was unable to design a craft that
could mount enough point defense weapons to last more than a round or
two.

The other problem I noted is the short range of direct-fire weapons.
None of the presented beams could touch anything beyond 30 hexes.
Missiles (even the wimpy predesigned ones) can hit from 50 or so
hexes.

Of course, missiles have to be replaced -- beam weapons fire forever.
Were these factors not present in previous Traveller incarnations?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 16:20:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ludwig)
Date: Sun Aug  4 15:20:04 2002
Subject: [TML] prejudice (OT)
In-Reply-To: <55.2b3ad1ac.2a7dc32f@aol.com>
References: <55.2b3ad1ac.2a7dc32f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020804181934.4890b45c.mariachi@mac.com>

On Sat, 3 Aug 2002 19:37:19 EDT
Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

[...]
> The military rejects enlistment of those 32 and older (if I recall 
> correctly)
[...]

35 and older in the Navy.  IRL, that is.  Dunno about Traveller.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 16:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug  4 15:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <02080313391901.00601@linux>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux>
Message-ID: <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net>

richard honeycutt wrote:
> 	How many dinky airless rockballs with large populations do the
> world generation rules permit?

What does that matter?  They obviously don't need trade for survival.
It's not like they'll starve if you isolate them.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 16:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug  4 15:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEKGEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <fc.1bc430d6.2a7d06b7@aol.com> <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEKGEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20020805082530.D24737@freeman.little-possums.net>

Terry Carlino wrote:
> This gave them the necessary range, a single 10,000 mile GURPS
> Traveller hex, to be effective weapons.

Ah, that explains it.  You're using a two-dimensional map.  Yes, if
you can restrict spacecraft to move in a plane, then I agree that
space mines can be effective.  (But even then, only if you don't use
the GURPS Traveller space combat system)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 16:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Sun Aug  4 15:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Professor Barker??
In-Reply-To: <000601c23c02$0d81b280$08984c51@oemcomputer>
References: <20020804190005.1656.32029.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020804172747.0469acb0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

For more detail, check out:

www.tekumel.com

Cheers!  (or Ngangmuru! if you wish)

At 10:58 PM 8/4/02 +0100, you wrote:

> >>Depart now and you forever separate
> >>yourselves from the vital gaming legacies of James Dunnigan,
> >>Steve Jackson, Gary Gygax, Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank
> >>Chadwick, Andrew Keith, William Keith, John Harshman,
> >>Professor Barker, and Richard Tucholka.
> >
> >Professor Barker {?} info please.
> >
> >Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
>
>Empire of the Petal Throne!
>
>It was a early D&D derivative by the above mentioned prof.
>
>It had a very oriental feel with him having a background in linguistics (and
>it counted as sci-fi due to the strange background history... Humans and
>other aliens try to terraform a planet, much to the anoyance of it
>inhabitants, entire solar system disappears into a void, leaving everybody
>up the creak, a few thousand years regression (theres no iron on planet!)
>and alternate cultural development  later and enter the PCs.
>
>It spawn numerous expansions, and two  novels bu M.A.R. Barker himself.
>
>Major prob with this world? pronouncing the words! He did a Tolkien and
>created his own languages and scripts.
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 17:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Aug  4 16:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
In-Reply-To: <B972E6BF.67D85%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <137.122edd2d.2a7ee774@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4E5E7E.26225.7DEF71@localhost>

On 4 Aug 2002 at 14:12, Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 8/4/02 1:24 PM, GypsyComet@aol.com at GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:
> 
> > Not the point. In space, mines are *terrain*, not ambushers.  Got an enemy
> > force vectoring your way? Drop mines behind you in an area you think it
> > likely he *has* to fly through. If he sees the mines, he may break off early
> > enough to miss them, giving you either an escape option or (if properly
> > deployed) a positional advantage for returning the attack.
> 
> And also possibly making his sensors go active.  If the mines are stealthy
> enough, he won't be able to detect them with passive sensors.
> > 
> > What really affects mines is the same factor that affects fighters: will they
> > be big enough to have *any* effect, even if they score a hit?
> 
> That is the question.  But mines will be far cheaper than fighters.  No life
> support, rudimentary controls, simple drive systems.  Probably fear cheaper.

Here's a cheap TL15 mine, made using FF&S1 + Vampire Fleets (for the 
robot brain). I assume that for a weapon to be fully independent it 
must have a robot brain with the requisite skills (in this case Sensers 
and Gunnery).

TL Guidance Vol Mass AV MCr   G-Turns Warhead Hits Damage  Range Comm 
15 Full-Ind 1   1.18 3  1.527 3/3     50kt    1D6  1/14-43 0     10L

Sensor Signatures     Asset
1P     	+4/+3/+4/+3/+1 4/8

Because it has the warhead's built-in laser receiver it can also be 
used as a low-acceleration controlled missile. It has 3 G-turns of 
acceleration because that was the smallest practical rocket available 
and it has to have some manoeuvrability to be able to get into 
detonation range of a target. It would probably be programmed to attack 
any enemy vessel that came within 3 hexes (90,000km) of it and that it 
could get a lock on.

The biggest weakness is that power for the passive sensor, EMM system 
and brain is only good for 12 hours. Also it's surprsingly expensive 
(it costs more than a standard TL15 space combat missile), with most of 
the extra cost coming from the sensor.

Because it is only 1 m^3 in volume it can be carried in very large 
amounts (this is 1/7th the volume of a standard TNE space combat 
missile), and deployed in large numbers.

And for those who have money to burn:

TL Guidance Vol Mass AV MCr   G-Turns Warhead Hits Damage  Range Comm
15 Full-Ind 7   7.32 3  5.232 4/4     500ktx2 2D6  1/25-79 0     10L

Sensor Signatures     Asset
2P     	+4/+3/+4/+3/+1 6/16

Probably way too expensive for most people, but it should ruin the day 
of any smaller vessel that runs into a field of them.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 17:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 16:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <02080313391901.00601@linux>
 <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
 <02080313391901.00601@linux>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804192145.024cac00@192.168.0.1>

At 08:19 AM 8/5/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>richard honeycutt wrote:
> >       How many dinky airless rockballs with large populations do the
> > world generation rules permit?
>What does that matter?  They obviously don't need trade for survival.
>It's not like they'll starve if you isolate them.

On what do you base that on?


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 17:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sun Aug  4 16:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
References: <181.c196c70.2a7ed4f5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <006001c23c11$6fd780e0$c20fbd50@martinjd>

>
> "Screening?"  If, by rule and design, fighters can't affect anything much
> more than 100 times their size, AND can't get sufficient squadron or fleet
> level coordination to act as a coherent battery, then they have no chance
of
> acting in a screening role *either*, since they won't have sufficient
rating
> to affect passing missile barrages and can't be effectively put in a place
to
> intercept those missile even if they *could* stop any.

Well, it's possible to build an over-weaponed "strike boat" around a
powerful weapon such as a plasma gun. Lots of hurting power for its size and
cost. Fighters can screen vs such attacks. They can act as standoff sensor
and patrol platforms. And they SHOULD be able to kill incoming missiles as
area defense weapons. If they can't then THAT is a rule change that i agree
should be made.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 17:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sun Aug  4 16:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Pilots of the Future (was: warship optimization)
References: <000601c23bd4$abfd1270$6501a8c0@Darla>
Message-ID: <00a201c23c12$53cb3760$c20fbd50@martinjd>

>
> >
> > Main problem with drones is the ECM/ECCM/Jamming seesaw.
> >
> > And control lags over combat distances in space, OC.
> >
>
> That may be true of drones, but unmanned combat aircraft will be
> autonomous to a large degree.  I suspect that "video game reflexes" will
> not be useful skills in operating them - mission planning will be more
> important.

That makes sense. In fact, I wrote something to that effect in my PGW
report.
And then forgot about it. Pure genius.

Me go throw spears at bison now...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 17:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 16:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
Message-ID: <OF622B6C9A.381C2DCD-ONCA256C0B.008138BC@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Martin (I think) wrote:
>>And again, why do you want this? Barring me swallowing some and 
suffering
>>some strange kind of poisoning, no amount of flies can beat me in a 
straight
>>fight.

But a swarm of those killer Mexican bees should have you worried. They can 
kill you.

>>My feeling is that fighters are good for screening and keeping
>>merchies in line. Big ships are for killing big ships.
>
>"Screening?"  If, by rule and design, fighters can't affect anything much 

>more than 100 times their size, AND can't get sufficient squadron or 
fleet 
>level coordination to act as a coherent battery, then they have no chance 
of 
>acting in a screening role *either*,

Huh? There _are_ examples of effective fighter batteries. Now let's see, 
where did I put that reference... <dig, dig> ah yes, the excellent 
Illustrated Traveller Bibliography at:
        http://www.pemaquidsolutions.com/bibliography/

...has a CT section. Fighter batteries are somewhere in one or more of 
these:
        JTAS #14 High Guard: Optional Rules, by Stefan Jones
        JTAS #14 TCS Squadron Design, by Kevin Connolly
        JTAS #15 TCS Squadron Design II, by Kevin Connolly
        JTAS #23 Naval Command, by Jeff Groteboer
        JTAS #24 Ref Notes: High Guard and TCS Campaigns, Leroy W.Guatney **
        (** It's by Leroy, but please don't let that put you off! ;-)

...and are definitely in:
        JTAS #27 Fighter Profile: The Rampart IV and V

They are treated just like an extra battery. The only time they could 
affect BIG ships is if they fired nukes, I guess. But they certainly act 
as an effective anti-missile screen.

Ah, look, I'm coming in 1/2-way thru this discussion. Feel free to ignore 
me.  ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 17:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Sun Aug  4 16:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020805081803.B24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <000b01c23c12$0a9e0040$0b01a8c0@duck>

> Of course, missiles have to be replaced -- beam weapons fire forever.
> Were these factors not present in previous Traveller incarnations?

They were in Book 2, but those factors were completely dropped in
High Guard.  Missles were free with an infinite supply.  HG just 
gave cost for the turret or bay weapons.  The ammo was assumed.

For small ships, missles were the only way to go.  You would mount
other stuff to fill out the USP, but missles were how you survived
because a nuclear missle could do near spinal damage without the 
spinal mount.

The other huge plus for HG missles is that they effectively increase
agility.  Since they take no power, they allow smaller power plants
to be used, or allow higher agility for the same sized power plant.

And there is an infinite supply of zero-mass, zero-volume free missles.

What a deal!

Honestly, except for some very specific cases, I have no idea why
anyone would use anything but spinal mesons and gobs and gobs of
missle bays.  The other weapons are just there to pad out the USP.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 17:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 16:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Paging Martin Dougherty
Message-ID: <OF6044E6DB.0B13FF37-ONCA256C0B.008342A9@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

>>> Obviously an eater of NIETZCHE POPS, The Uber Breakfast!
>>> I prefer Space Flakes (tm) myself.
>
>>I go for Cthulhu-hoops every time :-)
>
>I think that's marketed as Captain Cthulhu on this side of the pond.

Conme on! Any self-respecting Traveller should be eating that old 
"Goodies" breakfast staple, "Plastic Spacemen"!!

"Look mum, I found a corn flake!"

;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 17:57:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 16:57:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <c8.2ae3e017.2a7f1945@aol.com>

 >[snip good stuff]
 >ONLY the Master sees BOTH fleet positions - EVER. Opponents find out by
 >ships finding each other. Politial rules prevent FLEETS ( 5 ships per
 >group ) from crossing borders with declarations of war made.
 >
 >Think you can handle that?

Yes, I'd love to.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 18:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 17:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
Message-ID: <OF4B1DD5B4.382CD3B0-ONCA256C0C.000000B8@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

>But mines will be far cheaper than fighters.
>Probably fear cheaper.
          ^^^^
Ah yes, the old "your mine was made by the lowest bidder" concept. ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 18:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 17:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <9a.298a34a5.2a7f1cbe@aol.com>

 >But seriously, the comm delay and limited intelligence turned a wargame into
 >a nightmare.

Explains a lot about why the real military is the way it is.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 18:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 17:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Check Your Landgrabs!
Message-ID: <9b.2b7bf726.2a7f2041@aol.com>

 >>What is the landgrab?
 >
 >Claim a world in one of the published settings.  Detail the hell out of it.
 >Use any system you like. Publish the results here for everyone to admire.
 >Or put it up on the web, and post the link here for everyone to click.

I've done some work on Pagaton.  Is there an official listing of who has 
what, or it is a free-for-all?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 18:33:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 17:33:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: meduim navies
Message-ID: <3D4DC693.966243AF@mail.cswnet.com>

Initial Fleets for Lunion, Lanth, and Regina subsectors using
"meduim navies".

Initial Fleets, Lunion subsector

Imperial Navy MCr 2,835,544.748

Wardn. MCr 55
Smoug MCr 14700
Adabicci MCr 322,000
Zaibon MCr 148.75
Spirelle MCr 312,375
Derchon MCr 36,225
Lunion MCr 3,080,000
Shirine MCr 252
Harvoset MCr 14175
Perisephone MCr 28350
Capon MCr 17,850
Strouden MCr 3,465,000

This is peace time budget x10, using "meduim navies".
Note: I'm using supp3 to start, so Wardn is independent.

Initial Fleets, Lanth subsector

Imperial Navy MCr 68668.554

Extolay MCr 40250
Lanth MCr 220.5
Dinom MCr 63
Ghandi MCr 9.98
Wypoc MCr 267.75
Quopist MCr 1592.5
Treece MCr 105,000
Ivendo MCr 332.5
Tureded MCr 178.5
Equus MCr 66500
Rhise MCr 31.85
Icetina MCr 126
Cogri MCr 1785
Skull MCr 12600

This is peace time budget x10, using "meduim navies".

Initial Fleets, Regina subsector

Imperial Navy MCr 3,957,399.439

Efate MCr 3,220,000
Alell MCr 241,500
Yres MCr 13650
Menorb MCr 603,750
Uakye MCr 120.75
Boughne MCr 189
Hefry MCr 10.5
Ruie. MCr 9,100,000
Jenghe MCr 1365
Regina MCr 422,625
Feri MCr 409,500
Roup MCr 1,260,000
Yori MCr 23275
Dentus MCr 157.5
Wochiers MCr 294,000
Yorbund MCr 35
Moughas MCr 308
Rethe MCr 6,300,000
Inthe MCr 18200
Shionthy MCr 20825

This is peace time budget x10, using "meduim navies".

Notes: I'm using old supp3 for world tech levels, so Kinorb does'nt make
it [TL5]. Also, Yori is figured at TL13. Finally, Shionthys Imperial
Income is not included in the Imperial Fleet listing. I seperated it
because I deemed that income coming from Shionthy would be in the form
of collected CT-Shards, which would not go to local Imperial forces but
rather get sent off to an appropriate depot and/or research station.
This 'income' amounts to MCr892.5 annually. Also,
Shionthy is one of a very few in the Marches that would produce naval
income. The other 3 would be the two Droyne worlds in the Five Sisters
and Lewis in the Aramis subsector. I'm sure none of the three would be
contributing anything to the Imperial Treasury.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 18:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Aug  4 17:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
In-Reply-To: <200208040445160020.54D0CCA6@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
References: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPGEAHEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
 <200208040445160020.54D0CCA6@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <m37kj6jfye.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com> writes:
> 
> So does SPAM survive the Rule of Man, the Long Night and into the
> Third Imperium?

It no longer is manufactures, but reserves of SPAM still exist.  The
stuff lasts forever, you know...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
To murder a man is much odious, to kill a woman is in manner unnatural,
but to slay and destroy innocent babes and young infants, the whole
world abhorreth, and their blood from the earth crieth for vengeance to
almighty God.                                    --Edward Hall, c. 1480

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 18:42:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Aug  4 17:42:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Taxes
In-Reply-To: <000501c23bd4$ab74f6b0$6501a8c0@Darla>
References: <000501c23bd4$ab74f6b0$6501a8c0@Darla>
Message-ID: <m33ctujfxj.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Thomas Barnes" <twb3@charter.net> writes:
>
> IMTU the Imperium gets at 10% tariff on the value of all goods
> shipped interstellar, plus 10% of the fares charged for interstellar
> passage.  The Imperium does not levy any direct taxes on
> individuals.

Those rates would make it _very_ difficult to make a profit as a free
trader...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
If you're a politician, bureaucrat, or cop whose livelihood depends on
the drug war, you're fully as contemptible as any pusher, smuggler, or
cocaine baron--more so, because, unlike them, you profit directly by
destroying what was once the greatest freedom ever known to mankind.
                              --Mirelle Stein, The Productive Class

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 18:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 17:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Imperial Taxes
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGELECEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: hal@buffnet.net
>
>In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head tax" or does it charge
>an income tax on its citizens for its Imperial Budget requirements?  In

In my Traveller universe, the Imperium does not tax individuals directly.
It taxes its member states, and the tax is part of the membership treaty
that the world and the Imperium make when the star system joins the
Imperium.  The treaties vary substantially in defining the tax, but it is
usually based on the gross product of the member.  How the member raises
that tax is the member's business, but it is normally added to the members'
own internal taxation schemes.

The Imperium taxes corporations and other businesses involved in
interstellar trade directly.  For game purposes, I assume that all of the
prices provided by the books that relate to commercial starship operations
are just net of taxes.  Businesses doing only a small amount of interstellar
trade are exempt from direct Imperial taxation.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 18:52:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 17:52:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Check Your Landgrabs!
Message-ID: <3D4DCB21.7989C728@mail.cswnet.com>

>I've done some work on Pagaton.  Is there an official listing of who >has what, or it is a free-for-all?

For more info, go to this sight:

http://www.downport.com/landgrab/

Don't forget these worlds; they haven't been grabbed yet.
Adabicci, Rabwhar, Vilis, Choleosti and Margesi. 

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:02:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:02:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <25.2b8bf94f.2a7e4e43@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000301c23cba$1984c370$1001a8c0@sauron>

CHam628781@aol.com wrote :
> One option is visible fertility - humans are unusual in that
> we don't know when women are in oestrus. In a society where
> that didn't exist there is likely to be tight social control
> over gender interaction.
>
> You might see harem based families (K'Kree) or you might see
> a society where males and females have parrallel societies
> with extremely ritualised methods of interaction, particularly
> if women tend to become fertile at around the same time.
>
> One interesting possibilty is Vagr society where it would be
> obvious to every male within quite a distance that the high
> ranking, young female en route to take part in a political
> wedding and placed in the care of  the PCs by her
> doting (if somewhat inflexible, powerful and violent father)
> has just come "on heat" for the first time...

I have to bring up the Harry Turtledove World War series again here.

The use of ginger as a weapon against the invading "lizards" is just
priceless.

For those that aren't familiar, in the books ginger acts as an intoxicant on
lizard males, and does the same on females, except that it also induces all
the outward signs of oestrus including the release of the associated
pheremones, which in turn generates a matching reation in the male,
resulting in mating being the only thing that any male lizard with in scent
of the ginger-using female can think about.

The effect of sex happening "at any time" on what had been until then a
rigidly controlled society is, um, interesting.

It is really tempting to use this is as a plot on a B'wapp controlled world,
seeing as B'waap are pretty close to Turtledove's lizards otherise.

> Do male Aslan mark their territory?

I don't see why not. Human males do. <grin>

> "Elmer that danged tomcat's peeing on the airlock again! Go
> own scat, shoo - you pee on it you pay for it!"

Do we extend this to Aslan too then?

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:03:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:03:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller webring
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804205811.021c4950@mail.charter.net>

All the current (that I know of) Traveller webrings can be found at
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/RPG/SV/TRAV/TravRings.html

These include the gearhead ring, the deckplans ring, and the Reavers' Deep 
webring.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
A well-educated electorate being necessary to the
prosperity of a free state, the right of the people to
keep and read books, shall not be infringed.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:05:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:05:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Note on the rockhead ring
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804210228.01931b98@mail.charter.net>

The page listed as the ring homepage isn't there.

Try here <http://prattfall.tripod.com/gurps/traveller.html> for more 
information.

----------------------------------------------
"Function in disaster. Finish in style."
-- Lucy Madeira http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
----------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Junk in space
In-Reply-To: <20020730104900.B2820@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20804.181110.0M6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> On the other hand, a 2 cm chunk of something is going to do more
>> than leave a dent.
>
> Such a chunk probably has a kinetic energy of about 1 MJ at best, and
> very likely is travelling at substantially less than the speed of
> sound in starship hull material.

Okay, call it 5 grams. E=.5*m*v^2

1000000 = .5 *.005 * v^2

1e6 = 2.5e-3 * v^2
400e6 = v^2
20e3 = v

Somehow, I doubt that the speed of sound in starship hull material is
20 km/sec!

> I think "make a dent" would be about right.  If one ever hit, which it
> wouldn't unless the sensors were crippled.

Are you going to dodge? Or try to blow it up?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Check Your Landgrabs!
Message-ID: <200208050120.MBT01955@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Roseberry says
>Don't forget these worlds; they haven't been grabbed yet.
>Adabicci, Rabwhar, Vilis, Choleosti and Margesi. 

You're kidding, right?  If so, then I'll grab Vilis.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:25:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:25:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020804232303.7408.33320.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <006701c23c1f$2baff600$195d8690@computer>

> From: Mark Urbin
> At 08:19 AM 8/5/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
> >richard honeycutt wrote:
> > >       How many dinky airless rockballs with large populations do the
> > > world generation rules permit?
> >What does that matter?  They obviously don't need trade for survival.
> >It's not like they'll starve if you isolate them.
>
> On what do you base that on?

I believe he was being sarcastic.

Mind you, I suspect many rockballs would have extensive greenhouses. They
wouldn't necessarily live on imports and Soylent Green.

At least, if _I_ was planning a rockball colony, they would have extensive
greenhouses.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology
Message-ID: <006801c23c1f$2c8101a0$195d8690@computer>

>No, 'cause they'd still not get the full rest needed.  My
>greatgrandfather and grandfather took well over a month to return to
>the US after WWI & WWII; my father was back in college in 48 or so
>hours after his time in Vietnam.  Granted, that's _some_ rest time,
>but it's not nearly enough.  You don't find as much PTSD in fellows
>who got to slowly make their way back home, adjust to the new reality
>&c.; you find quite a lot in guys who are plucked up from one
>situation and dropped in another.

I wouldn't underestimate the frequency of PTSD among WWI and WWII vets. I've
spent quite a bit of time talking to widows of WWII vets, and quite a lot of
them have horror stories of how their husbands would sometimes lose the
plot.

The POWs seem to have had the most problems, of course. This seems to be
true even when they were held by the Germans and Italians, rather than by
the Japanese.

As for WWI, well, let's just say that Australia started having a bit of a
drug problem after 1918.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:28:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:28:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020804173620.8351.57196.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <006901c23c1f$2dd85440$195d8690@computer>

> From: "MJ Dougherty"
> The confirmation came back "Cannot attack. My cuirassiers are in front of
> my lancers. Must redeploy for maximum effectivenesss." (He'd been fiddling
> with his deployments for 3 hours game-time and was now under artillery
fire)

: )

Once in a multi-player Seven Year's War game I moved my general figure over
to where one of my team-mates' general was, and then shouted at the fool.
He'd been moving his artillery backwards and forwards for the whole game,
while my force was fighting superior numbers of Prussians. If his guns had
been firing, we might have won.

I think at some point we probably should get some multi-player strategic
PBEMs going. Something along the lines of FFW, although I don't own a copy
of it.

Hmm. I've always wanted to run an Arbellatra vs Gustus game. Maybe I should
actually do it.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:33:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:33:05 2002
Subject: [TML] prejudice (OT)
In-Reply-To: <20020804181934.4890b45c.mariachi@mac.com>
Message-ID: <000401c23cbe$835713d0$1001a8c0@sauron>

Ludwig wrote :
> Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> [...]
> > The military rejects enlistment of those 32 and older (if I recall
> > correctly)
> [...]
>
> 35 and older in the Navy.  IRL, that is.  Dunno about Traveller.

That's actually a very good point.

In Traveller, with good meditech and anagathics, there's no reason a
forty-year-old couldn't still have a good twenty years of service left in
her.

If you want to extrapolate on current medical capabilities and imagine
several thousand years of good diet and breeding, one could expect it be
common that hard-bitten sixty-year-old warriors would wipe the floor with
mere brats of 35, who have not had enough years of training to even begin to
approach them.

Another point about "combat effectiveness", having just recently watched the
film "Snatch" again. Fitness and training are not neccessarily any match for
brutality and nastiness.
Age, of course, has nothing to do with this.

Many people (especially ex-military types) seem to assume that the measure
of "combat effectivenes" is how fit you are, how well you can stand up on
the battlefield or in a pre-announced fight.

But if you're the sort of nasty little f*ck that stabs people in the balls
when they are not expecting it, just because they made the mistake of
talking to you when you're annoyed , then you can probably kill a lot of
your opponents before they even realize they are in a fight.

IIRC, the infamous "Carlos" otherwise known as "The Jackal" was, during his
most famous escapades, a balding, overweight, middle-aged man who was
completely out of breath after running up a couple of flights of stairs.

I have, on occassion, become involved in violence. In almost all cases,
intimidation was my most effective weapon, and that was all
verbal/psychological intimidation as I am not a large person. In the case's
where intimidation failed, being able to cause extreme pain, and take a few
blows while doing so, was far more important than fitness or fancy
technique.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 19:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug  4 18:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Landgrab of Vilis
Message-ID: <200208050146.MBV00737@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

If I'm doing Vilis, I think I had better do Garda-Vilis, 
unless someone has already done that one.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Spam Spam Spam Spam...
Message-ID: <19d.66884a1.2a7f37e7@aol.com>

Hunter writes:

>So does SPAM survive the Rule of Man, the Long Night and into the Third=
> Imperium? If so, is it just a Solomani thing, or have the Vilani and=
> others come to enjoy this uniquely Terran... ummm .... stuff? I'm just=
> picturing a group of adventurers finding an old Rule of Man cache,=
> stockpiled with cans of good old SPAM!

I would expect that any planet in Solomani space settled by Hawaiians would 
either create or import vast amounts.  How widespread it would get really 
depends on shelf-life and the viability of swine off Terra. It may just be 
that pigs just don't taste the same when raised elsewhere, and so all Spam 
comes from Terra...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:09:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:09:21 2002
Subject: [TML] adventure
Message-ID: <1ac.6380721.2a7f37b7@aol.com>

Traveller Adventure: Comet Busters

For referees only.  If you intend to play this adventure, quit reading now 
and direct your game referee to this page. 

(continue paging down) 










Requirements 
The adventurers must have their own ship with a cargo space of at least 3 
tons, and vacc suits for all adventurers plus three.  If the vacc suits prove 
to be a major problem then let the players find extra vacc suits in the local 
starport repair shop.  The adventure team must have at least one person with 
engineering skill, preferably two, and at least one with mechanical skill. 

Set-up 
The adventurers have the only ship presently in-system at xxxx.   While 
technically backward the world is sufficiently advanced to have astronomical 
interests.  Recently a large new comet has been detected, and calculations 
have just shown that it will collide with xxxx in less than two days.  xxxx's 
government will send a pair of generals and a squad of troops by helicopter 
to request the ship's captain to come with them to a nearby military base 
where he will meet xxxx's supreme leader.  This leader will inform the 
captain of the situation his planet faces, and will (firmly) ask him to take 
on board several nuclear weapons and a nuclear weapons team and to deliver 
them to the comet, where they hope to to break it up.  Should the captain or 
the other adventurers prove less than altruistic the government will offer 
the following as incentives:  land holdings planetside, 1 million credits, 
large business-oriented interest-free loans, and lifetime tax- and duty-free 
status, for each adventurer.  This is the "Hero of xxxx" monetary award, and 
has been awarded by this planet only a few dozen times in its history. 

Should the adventurers demand further payments the government will agree to 
anything while the crisis is pending, but will then defer payment 
authorization to the proper bureaucracy, which will deny any payment greater 
than that listed above.  "This is not constitutionally authorized etc." 

The nukes are primitive and bulky, and will require manual detonation.  Any 
member of the weapons team will volunteer as necessary to make the devices 
work. 

All payment agreements will be with the government chief executive, and will 
be verbal.  Any payments made will be on mission accomplishment, not before. 

The general population will not be notified of the impending catastrophe. 

Begin Mission 
If the adventurers' captain agrees to this mission he will be immediately 
helicoptered back to his vessel, along with several generals, a squad of 
soldiers, and three wooden-crated nuclear devices.  The cases have simple 
manual control panels on the outside, with connector jacks and hand-held 
pushbutton actuators.  They are escorted by a weapons team, two young 
lieutenants and a tough-looking sergeant who are volunteering to deliver 
these devices and detonate them.  On arrival at the ship the nukes will be 
loaded into the cargo space immediately and the adventurers will be asked to 
begin their mission without delay since time is short.  If the adventurers 
insist on inspecting the cargo before it is loaded aboard they will be 
permitted to do so.  If there are not enough vacc suits then someone should 
bring up this issue now, and a frantic general search should ensue. 

Maneuvering to the Comet 
The weapons team will have sidearms and combat knives, both visible and 
concealed, as a matter of policy.  "We can't allow transportation of nuclear 
weapons without an armed escort.  Would you?"  Their mission is to blow up 
the comet, and they'll do anything to accomplish that.  If their sidearms are 
demanded of them while aboard ship they will comply immediately but 
reluctantly, handing over their visible pistols.  If pressed they will then 
give up their visible knives.  If the concealed weapons are located and 
confiscated then the team will begin quietly noting common gear that can be 
used as weapons in an emergency, such as fire extinguishers, pliers, 
wrenches, and the like.  Each lieutenant has brawling skill 2 while the 
sergeant has brawling skill 3, meaning they will be formidable hand-to-hand 
opponents.  The team will make no attempt to stand guard directly over the 
nuclear devices but rather will stick together at all times, believing they 
have a better chance against any treachery if they work as a unit. 

The approach will take about 20 hours and will be uneventful.  Most free time 
will be spent helping the weapons team learn how to use the ship's vacc suits 
and how to function in a zero gravity environment, which skills they will 
need in order to move the weapons on the comet's surface.  Also all three 
weapons team members will express great interest in learning how the ship 
flies through space, making comments such as "I always wanted to be a pilot, 
but I never thought I'd fly in outer space" and "I hope my world learns to do 
this some day".  All will ask to sit in the pilot's seat and maneuver the 
vessel at least once.  Both officers, if engaged in coversations, will show 
pictures of their families.  If asked about his family the much older 
sergeant will only comment that he is not sentimental.  If pressed he will 
simply insist on concentrating on the mission:  "I want to go over the vacc 
suit again.  Please show me how to deal with an air leak." 

If there is any serious confrontation between the adventurers and the weapons 
team then the weapons team will make absolutely every effort to get the 
mission back on track. 

Arrival 
On arrival at the comet the weapons team will gather on the bridge with the 
adventurers to see what they're up against.  The arrival will be very rough.  
The comet will be surrounded by debris, some of it capable of damaging the 
ship, bubbling up in the turbulent atmosphere boiling off of the comet's 
surface and escaping into space.  Visibility to the surface will be poor.  
Intelligent adventurers, in the face of this obvious hull-breach hazard, will 
go to general quarters, all hands donning vacc suits and depressurizing major 
spaces.  If the adventurers have not yet thought to ask then the weapons team 
will now inform them that they need to find a crack or depression in the 
comet large enough to allow manual insertion of the weapons and deep enough 
that a weapon detonation there will cause the comet to pop apart, thus 
diverting the majority of the comet mass around the inhabited planet in a 
large ring and minimizing the size of the pieces that do hit the planet. 

At some point during the approach the sergeant (or a lieutenant) will either 
locate and retrieve the team's firearms without the adventurers' knowledge or 
he will find some suitable substitute such as a rivet gun or emergency flare 
launcher.  Whatever he finds he will put it in his vacc suit outer pocket. 

Landing 
In a few hours the comet will be too close to xxxx for the nuclear detonation 
to have any effect on its chances of hitting the planet.  A short search will 
immediately discover two likely-looking canyons.  One will be easily and 
safely approached, but may not be deep enough.  The other is definitely deep 
enough, but will be dangerous to approach.  If the ship lands near the first 
canyon it will immediately be obvious that the canyon is not deep enough and 
that the second canyon must be attempted.  There is no time to look for a 
third canyon, but if the adventurers insist on trying then they will have to 
maneuver through debris that might damage their ship.  For each turn spent 
looking roll two six-sized dice and add the pilot's skill; if 8 or higher 
(8+) then the ship's pilot successfully avoids the debris, otherwise the ship 
will be hit by a rock that causes a hull breach.  On approaching the second 
canyon roll 10+, plus pilot skill, to avoid a minor crash landing that will 
require continuous work by all engineers to fix before a takeoff can be 
attempted, and roll 10+, plus pilot skill, to avoid a collision with debris 
that will cause a minor hull breach in a primary living space.  If all ship's 
engineers work to repair the damage, roll 6+, +1 for every engineer working 
on the problem, +1 for every 15 minutes of work that has passed, every 15 
minutes, to repair the hull breach, and roll 15+, plus mechanical skill of 
the senior engineer working on the problem, +1 for every other engineer 
working on the problem, +1 for every 15 minutes of work that has passed, 
every 15 minutes, to repair the crash landing damage.  The engineers can work 
on only one job at a time, and the ship can easily maneuver even with the 
hull breach, so presumably the adventurers will seek to repair the crash 
landing damage first. 

On A Refusal 
If for some reason the adventurers refuse to procede and try to abandon the 
mission then the weapons team will draw any weapons they can, imprison the 
adventurers in a stateroom, and attempt to land the ship near the comet's 
deepest canyon.  They will crash-land, automatically doing double the damage 
specified above.  The adventurers may, of course, attempt to resist this 
hijacking. 

On The Surface 
When the ship lands, whether gracefully or not, the weapons team will 
immediately begin manhandling the nuclear devices out of the ship's cargo 
bay.  Two of them will only be able to move one weapon at a time, while one 
remains in the cargo bay door with weapons left there while others are being 
moved.  All of them, having little zero gravity experience, will have to work 
slowly to make any progress.  They will request assistance from the 
adventurers (one lieutenant will release the adventurers, if they were 
hijacked, and then immediately go back outside), with assurances that the 
adventurers will not have to remain behind to detonate the bombs and that 
they will have time to get away. 

Before (if) any adventurers move out to assist the weapons team a patch of 
high-speed debris will strike the soldiers, puncturing their suits.  The two 
lieutenants will die, while the sergeant will succeed in emergency patching 
his suit but be seriously wounded.  The weapons and the ship will will be 
undamaged.  If no adventurers are moving out to assist the weapons team, or 
if they retreat, the sergeant will again request assistance, stating that he 
himself is unable to continue. 

If the adventurers refuse to help then the sergeant will arm the weapons and 
threaten to detonate them immediately if the adventurers do not complete the 
job.  If the adventurers still refuse to assist, he will do so.  The 
detonation will be successful and save the planet entirely on 10+, else save 
it but with great damage on 8+.  The ship and adventurers will be destroyed.  
The adventurers will be unable, because of terrain and angle, to bring any 
ship's weapons to bear against the sergeant without first lifting off and 
gaining altitude from the comet, which action will be immediately visible to 
him. 

If the adventurers assist involuntarily then the sergeant will supervise them 
with the recovered gun in one hand and the pushbutton actuator in the other.  
The referee will have to adjudicate further action.  If the adventurers 
succeed in placing the weapons to the sergeant's satisfaction he will dismiss 
them, giving them a time limit to get away before he manually detonates the 
nukes.  If the adventurers assist voluntarily the sergeant will be unable to 
help move the nukes but he will be able to supervise weapon placement.   

Time pressure will be very high.  The mission is fast approaching a point 
where it will be too late for the planned detonation to affect the comet's 
impact on the planet.  The sergeant will be fully aware of that time, having 
marked it on his watch, and he will goad the adventurers as necessary to 
hurry.  If that point is reached before the weapons are fully placed then he 
will detonate the weapons immediately regardless of any other consideration.  
If the detonation time is getting very close and it looks as if the weapons 
will not be fully placed he will stop goading the adventurers so as to keep 
them calm and working until the last possible minute.  While moving the 
weapons under this time pressure each adventurer must at some point roll 12+ 
once, plus dexterity stat, to avoid injury due to haste in handling large 
objects in close quarters in zero gravity.  Injuries will be pinched limbs.  
For each injury roll again with 12+ indicating a serious injury leaving the 
adventurer unable to contribute any further effort towards moving the 
weapons. 

If the engineers finish repairs then they may quickly join the effort to move 
the nukes down the canyon. 

The Find 
As the adventurers are moving the weapons to the bottom of the canyon, their 
vacc suit headlamps shining in the darkness, all will notice right away that 
there are strange shapes frozen into the glass- clear ice in both canyon 
walls.  It soon becomes apparent that the shapes are several non-humanoid 
aliens, some artifacts, and what appears to be a ship.  The aliens strongly 
resemble praying manti and are a little smaller than human-size.  They wear 
straps carrying various items of gear, but no clothing.  The ends of their 
"arms" have manipulatory organs with multiple opposing digits.  The ship 
appears to be about two hundred tons or so.  The tail section is not in view, 
and no guess as to the propulsion system can be made.  The artifacts are 
scattered about in the ice near the aliens and near the surface. 

Recovery 
After the sergeant recovers from his own amazement he will continue to insist 
on weapon placement.  When this is finished he will dismiss the adventurers 
while he remains behind to initiate the detonation.  If the adventurers have 
fully cooperated with the supreme leader and the weapons team from the very 
beginning and have otherwise been efficient then they will have enough time 
to attempt to recover artifacts from out of the ice, should they choose to 
try.  They will be able to reach up to two items per adventurer present, for 
up to a total of nine items, before time pressure forces them to abandon 
further excavation and to head for the surface to escape the planned 
detonation.  If they must choose between objects then the adventurers can 
from select the following:  three iridium- colored hollow tubes 1" diameter 
6" long, two palm-sized saucer-shaped metal disks ringed with buttons, two 
plain silver balls 2" in diameter, about half of an alien's head, and one 
entire alien arm.  If the players ask if they can take pictures then remind 
them that their vacc suits incorporate videocams and that they can fully 
record, in high definition digital format, all that they see as they work. 

Escape 
As the adventurers return to their ship any repair crew should have had six 
chances to repair the ship should they have needed to do so.  If the ship is 
not yet repaired and the adventurers have been efficient in their use of time 
then they should have two more chances to repair the damage and resume flight 
without having to worry about blast from the nukes.  If a final roll is 
necessary (and successful) before flight is possible then the adventurers 
will escape but their vessel will likely take serious damage from fragments 
of the blasted comet (repeat the damage and repair possibilities listed 
earlier in Landing).  If damaged, the ship must be repaired in two hours or 
it will burn up in the planet's atmosphere.  If the vessel is still on the 
surface of the comet when detonation takes place then the ship will 
automatically take all damage listed in Landing (no roll) and again must be 
repaired in two hours or burn up in the planet's atmosphere.  In addition to 
this, each crew member must roll less than or equal to both his strength stat 
and dexterity stat or be injured sufficiently to be unable to participate in 
any repair effort. 

The Artifacts 

Iridium Tubes 
Saucers 
Silver Balls 
Manti Body Parts 

Aftermath 
If the adventure team acted in a timely manner and did not engage in 
excessive delays then the planet will suffer only minor damage from pieces of 
the destroyed comet, and the adventure team will be paid to the limit 
previously specified.  If, however, the adventure team failed to perform 
expeditiously then upon their return they will find that large pieces of the 
comet have impacted the planet.  Overall damage to the planet's biosphere and 
human population will be moderate and temporary.  Damage to the government, 
however, will be fatal -- the capitol city, governing center, and starport 
will have been destroyed by a nearby strike.  All who knew of the adventure 
team's involvement in trying to stop the comet, including the supreme leader 
and senior military officers, as well as all who knew of any payment 
arrangements made with the adventurers, will have been killed in the impact.  
If they press their case and an investigation is launched they will have 
little evidence of their roll in this matter.  Astronomers will report that 
they did in fact notify the government of the impending collision, but they 
will have no knowledge of what action the supreme leader took regarding this 
information.  Surviving witnesses may report that an off-world ship did 
arrive recently at the starport near the capitol, and then leave shortly 
before the comet fragments impacted, but none of them will have any idea who 
it was or where this ship went after departing.  The nuclear scientists will 
say they received valid orders to hastily assemble the devices and turn them 
over to the military weapons team, but they have no idea where the weapons 
went after that.  If the adventurers made video records of their activities 
then the remaining governmental organs may be persuaded that the adventurers 
did in fact contribute to the partial saving of xxxx -- provided, of course, 
that these records show the adventurers cooperating with the weapons team and 
not needing to be coerced into taking action. 

If the adventurers failed to deliver the weapons at all then the planet xxxx 
will be severely traumatized by the comet's full impact, with tremendous 
damage to the population and the biosphere.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:11:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:11:56 2002
Subject: [TML] marking
Message-ID: <a1.2b5a23c4.2a7f3862@aol.com>

Charles (CHam628781@aol.com) writes:

>Do male Aslan mark their territory?
>

Yes, but with a fence, axe, or plasma gun...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:19:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:19:04 2002
Subject: [TML] adventure
Message-ID: <memo.604253@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <1ac.6380721.2a7f37b7@aol.com>
Nice :-)

Keep it up.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <006801c23c1f$2c8101a0$195d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <B9732F75.68182%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/4/02 6:10 PM, Alan Bradley at abradley1@bigpond.com wrote:

>=20
> I wouldn't underestimate the frequency of PTSD among WWI and WWII vets. I=
've
> spent quite a bit of time talking to widows of WWII vets, and quite a lot=
 of
> them have horror stories of how their husbands would sometimes lose the
> plot.
>=20
> The POWs seem to have had the most problems, of course. This seems to be
> true even when they were held by the Germans and Italians, rather than by
> the Japanese.
>=20
> As for WWI, well, let's just say that Australia started having a bit of a
> drug problem after 1918.

True.  There was battle fatigue and shell shock.  Many of these cases laste=
d
well beyond the war.  Actor Charles Durning, who served as an Army Ranger
and participated in both the D-Day landings and the battle of the bulged ha=
s
said that he continues to have nightmares about his military service to thi=
s
day.  There are, of course, numerous examples from both world wars and Kore=
a
of what we would now call PTSD.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:24:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:24:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Yes PM
In-Reply-To: <B96B1B3E.66A00%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20804.182449.3P9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 7/29/02 4:11 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>
>> 
>> Or let it burn up in a planetary atmosphere (though getting away with
>> that requires a low tech planet without much in the way of orbital
>> survielance.
>
> How big a signature would a body have?  Just another meterorite?

One that parted company with a ship entering or leaving orbit.

At the very least, you'd get a fine for trash dumping if it was
noticed. 

In low orbit *we* track stuff down to marble size. 

Since "ballistic entry" of "stealthed" packages would be a great way to
smuggle relatively rugged items, ships would get a lot of monitoring on
approach to any planet that cares about smuggling.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:25:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:25:33 2002
Subject: UFO TV Series [was: Re: [TML] Sub-FTL Travel in MT]
In-Reply-To: <B96B2C17.66A13%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20804.182951.3v1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> on 7/29/02 4:16 PM, George A. Boyett at gboyett@msn.com wrote:
>
>> I'm 36 and I remember that series.
>
> I'm 39. 
>> 
>> One thing I can't remember is the name of the organization that fought
>> the aliens.
>
> SHADO

Supreme
Headquarters
Alien
Defence
Organization

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:26:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:26:47 2002
Subject: [TML] getting rid of a body (was Re: Yes PM)
In-Reply-To: <3D45F676.C97C7157@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20804.190552.6d6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>
>> At 05:04 PM 7/29/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>>
>> >A good high-fire kiln, for firing porcelain, e.g., gets up to about
>> >3,000F if I recall correctly.  That shouldn't leave anything of a
>> >body but ash.  I think the DNA will be completely unrecoverable --
>> >but I hope that those of you who know will speak up (both sides in my
>> >current campaign might want to know).  My art school friends and I
>> >used to think that that was probably the best way to get rid of a
>> >body at TL 7.
>>
>
> If your planet is so equiped, i would think a volcano would be a great
> low-tech body disposal resource.

As long as it's a Kileaua(sp) type that has lots of nice *fluid* lava.
The sort we have on the West Coast are pretty much useless for that
sort of thing.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:27:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:27:59 2002
Subject: [TML] getting rid of a body (was Re: Yes PM)
In-Reply-To: <20020730000444.42371.qmail@web20415.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20804.185754.8D0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>>Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Yes PM
>>Both the wood chipper and pig methods have been used in cases where 
>>the forensics people *were* able to recover enough evidence to ID
> the
>>remains as human and get a DNA ID.
>
> [deletion]
>
>>For Traveller, it's going to be hard to beat this:
>
> [deletion]
>
>>Using pure oxygen, the body would likely burn weel. And hot. But
> this
>>is apt to be impractical. If you've got HEPlaR, then you can just
>>vaporize the body. 
>>
>>Or you could just dump it out the lock in jump. 
>>
>>Or let it burn up in a planetary atmosphere (though getting away
> with
>>that requires a low tech planet without much in the way of orbital
>>survielance.
>
> A good high-fire kiln, for firing porcelain, e.g., gets up to about
> 3,000F if I recall correctly.  That shouldn't leave anything of a
> body but ash.  I think the DNA will be completely unrecoverable --
> but I hope that those of you who know will speak up (both sides in my
> current campaign might want to know).  My art school friends and I
> used to think that that was probably the best way to get rid of a
> body at TL 7.  

Next time you have access to one, toss in a pound of meat. Including
fresh bone. 

It'll take a long time and produce a *lot* of smoke. And what I'm told
is a *very* distinct odor. 

As well as depositing soot and other things all over the place.

And teeth, being damn near porcelian already, will take a long time to
calcine. The ends of the thigh bones are pretty durable as well.

> Now at Traveller tech levels, you can make a body disappear
> completely by dumping it into a star or into jump space.  Even
> putting it into a cometary orbit should make it impossible to find
> without specific information.  I should think that a body dropped
> into a gas giant's atmosphere would be impossible to find, too.

Putting it into a cometary orbit requires being unobserved. 

> All of the foregoing options assume access to a starship or at least
> a small craft.  What about the lower-echelon wise guy, who only has a
> grav speeder?  How about someplace where they melt metal?

They'll be more than a little upset at all the impurities in the melt. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] getting rid of a body (was Re: Yes PM)
In-Reply-To: <p05111710b96c7691308f@[192.168.0.2]>
Message-ID: <20804.190929.3R3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 5:04 PM -0700 7/29/02, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>
>>Now at Traveller tech levels, you can make a body disappear
>>completely by dumping it into a star or into jump space.  Even
>>putting it into a cometary orbit should make it impossible to find
>>without specific information.  I should think that a body dropped
>>into a gas giant's atmosphere would be impossible to find, too.
>
>         I think the trick with dumping a body into a star or large 
> planet is making sure you have the oribital mechanics right so it 
> actually goes into the target body and not into orbit.  OTOH, if 
> you're dealing with dumping a body in space, maybe it's enough to 
> just give the body enough velocity out your airlock in an empty 
> direction.  Chances are, it'll never be found anyway.

There are a *lot* of folks in jail after putting bodies in places where
the chances were that said bodies would never be found.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:34:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:34:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Warghame ----> Nightmare?
Message-ID: <194.af51b03.2a7f3c97@aol.com>

>But seriously, the comm delay and limited intelligence turned a wargame into
>a nightmare.

Commo delays and limited intelligence are half the fun of a decent wargame. I 
love large, multiplayer exercises -- the umpires don't have to insert the 
"fog of war" because the players provide it themselves!

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:38:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:38:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020804232303.7408.33320.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <006701c23c1f$2baff600$195d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <033401c23c28$9dc0c590$7400a8c0@matt>

Alan Bradley wrote:
>> From: Mark Urbin
>> At 08:19 AM 8/5/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>>> richard honeycutt wrote:
>>>>       How many dinky airless rockballs with large populations do
>>>> the world generation rules permit?
>>> What does that matter?  They obviously don't need trade for
>>> survival. It's not like they'll starve if you isolate them.
>>
>> On what do you base that on?
>
> I believe he was being sarcastic.
>
> Mind you, I suspect many rockballs would have extensive greenhouses.
> They wouldn't necessarily live on imports and Soylent Green.
>
> At least, if _I_ was planning a rockball colony, they would have
> extensive greenhouses.

And I dare say they did...

Unfortunately in the TNE setting Virus comes along and takes over, opening
airlocks etc or otherwise playing with the lifesupport. Greenhouses exposed
to vacuum, or that have pure oxygen passed into them and a spark ignited
don't tend to be overly productive... Or it plays grav pong along the access
corridors to the greenhouses... lovely food that you can't get to...

etc

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:43:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:43:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <006701c23c1f$2baff600$195d8690@computer>
References: <20020804232303.7408.33320.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804223247.0237e008@192.168.0.1>

At 11:01 AM 8/5/2002 +1000, Alan Bradley wrote:
> > From: Mark Urbin
> > At 08:19 AM 8/5/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
> > >richard honeycutt wrote:
> > > >       How many dinky airless rockballs with large populations do the
> > > > world generation rules permit?
> > >What does that matter?  They obviously don't need trade for survival.
> > >It's not like they'll starve if you isolate them.
> > On what do you base that on?
>I believe he was being sarcastic.

I don't think he was.

>Mind you, I suspect many rockballs would have extensive greenhouses. They
>wouldn't necessarily live on imports and Soylent Green.
>At least, if _I_ was planning a rockball colony, they would have extensive
>greenhouses.

So would I.  Now, your rockball is on a trade route.  A jump away is a nice 
size 7 planet with a standard atmosphere, and plenty of water.
They have amber fields of grain, huge herds of groats, and a wide variety 
of various fresh foods.
They don't like strip mining, you like reasonably fresh beef...
Keep this trade cycle up for a few hundred years.

It will be the wackos waiting for the world to end who demand that 100% of 
all needed foodstuffs be grown locally.
Everybody sane knows that tons of fresh food arrive every week...
Ya, that algae is good for you, but it tastes funny and turns everything green!

The supply ships stop coming...and you're only producing enough food 
locally to feed 50-60% of the population.
Even if the local leaders have the will to implement rationing, are they 
able to enforce it?


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"This has the characteristic look and feel of a complete fiasco."
                 http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:45:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:45:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Landgrab Vilis
Message-ID: <3D4DE550.CE9DD052@mail.cswnet.com>

Alright! Welcome to the neighborhood. I've been pushing the border
worlds hard hoping people would snag'em. About Garda-Vilis: I seem to
think someone grabed it somewhere along the way, but the landgrab
website does'nt show it. I'd snag'em both immediatly and see if anyone
objects. It wouldnt hurt to try anyway [shrug].

Some of your Imperial neighbors [within 6 parsecs]:
Ficant/Vilis        A. M-Vallance
Saurus/Vilis        Iain Williams
Tavonni/Vilis       David Jaques-Watson
Zeta 2/Vilis        Jason Barnabas
and of course, me:
Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:47:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:47:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: meduim navies
Message-ID: <OFAB92C96B.2F360646-ONCA256C0C.000E60F9@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Dan wrote:
>I seperated it
>because I deemed that income coming from Shionthy would be in the form
>of collected CT-Shards, which would not go to local Imperial forces but
>rather get sent off to an appropriate depot and/or research station.

No, no, no, _Marc_ is receiving income from sending out _his_ collected CT 
shards - Oh! I see what you meant.

;-)  ;-)

(There's that razor-sharp wit again - must be Monday!)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 20:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug  4 19:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] getting rid of a body (was Re: Yes PM)
Message-ID: <200208050251.MBX00823@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson says
<snip the drawbacks of the various ways>
I still think my method of lime, sulfur, and water works 
rather well - I remember the demonstration we received with a 
pig carcass - the bones and teeth were gone after a week 
underground with the mixture.

If you're lucky, and you work near a steel mill, there are 
tanks where they recycle the sulfuric acid - they keep it at 
about 18 M.  Drop someone in that (watch the splash) and 
there won't be anything left.  The recycling process will 
take care of the impurities.

In the various Traveller campaigns I played in, the 
characters invariably ended up with some sort of Italian 
firign squad situation aboard ship.  Provided that the pilot, 
navigator, and engineer weren't greased in this display of un-
intelligence, the resulting bodies (and often, the protesting 
wounded) were blown out of the airlock in jump space.  
Sometimes, people killed aboard ship while in port were 
stuffed into the freezer or low berth until they could be 
disposed of.

One crew had this happen with such regularity that a low 
berth was permanently rigged to show low level life signs, in 
case a customs official was suspicious about the person 
inside.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 21:02:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 20:02:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Landgrab Vilis
In-Reply-To: <3D4DE550.CE9DD052@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804225914.02142128@192.168.0.1>

If John doesn't mind, I could do Garda-Vilis.
Filling in details around his outlines or vice-versa.

At 09:39 PM 8/4/2002 -0500, Roseberry wrote:
>Alright! Welcome to the neighborhood. I've been pushing the border
>worlds hard hoping people would snag'em. About Garda-Vilis: I seem to
>think someone grabed it somewhere along the way, but the landgrab
>website does'nt show it. I'd snag'em both immediatly and see if anyone
>objects. It wouldnt hurt to try anyway [shrug].
>
>Some of your Imperial neighbors [within 6 parsecs]:
>Ficant/Vilis        A. M-Vallance
>Saurus/Vilis        Iain Williams
>Tavonni/Vilis       David Jaques-Watson
>Zeta 2/Vilis        Jason Barnabas
>and of course, me:
>Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 21:04:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 20:04:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
Message-ID: <138.1260f901.2a7f16a9@cs.com>

--part1_138.1260f901.2a7f16a9_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 8/4/02 12:11:08 AM Central Daylight Time, 
res053z0@gten.net writes:


> (Doug says, 'Who is Richard Tucholka?' )
> 
> Stalking the Night Fantastic, Fringeworthy, FTL 2448
> 
> 

Speaking of which, does anyone know where I might find a good-condition copy 
of FTL:2448? I've looked all over the place, both online and in RL and I've 
never been able to find anything. I've got everything else TriTac's put out 
and I'm wanting to complete my collection.

Simon Jester
Damage169@cs.com

--part1_138.1260f901.2a7f16a9_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 8/4/02 12:11:08 AM Central Daylight Time, res053z0@gten.net writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">(Doug says, 'Who is Richard Tucholka?' )
<BR>
<BR>Stalking the Night Fantastic, Fringeworthy, FTL 2448
<BR>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>Speaking of which, does anyone know where I might find a good-condition copy of FTL:2448? I've looked all over the place, both online and in RL and I've never been able to find anything. I've got everything else TriTac's put out and I'm wanting to complete my collection.
<BR>
<BR>Simon Jester
<BR>Damage169@cs.com</FONT></HTML>

--part1_138.1260f901.2a7f16a9_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 21:05:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 20:05:50 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
Message-ID: <OF835496FC.46D80DAC-ONCA256C0C.000EC80C@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Robert spammed us with:
>"Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com> writes:
> 
>> So does SPAM survive the Rule of Man, the Long Night and into the
>> Third Imperium?
>
>It no longer is manufactures, but reserves of SPAM still exist.  The
>stuff lasts forever, you know...

I have it on good authority that the various shelters constructed by the 
Octagon Society were made out of old Spam tins - y'know, emergency 
supplies for stranded travellers, get it?

Why do you think those guys were so pleased to find that Ancients base on 
Fulacin - for the food! To say nothing of explaining that execrable 
10-volume poem - the writer had gone mad from eating too much of the same 
thing all the time!! And don't even get me started on the fact that, the 
instant someone invented Spam, Grandfather decided that humans were even 
dumber than worms and gave up on them as useful servants!!! Not to mention 
cutting himself off from the rest of the Universe!!!!

"IT'S ALL TRUE, I TELL YOU! HE TOLD ME SO LAST TIME I VISITED HIS POCKET 
DIMENSIO-" <whack! jab! bind!> "mmph, mmph!" <struggle>

"...and now, back to your regular scheduled programming (nothing to see 
here, move along)..."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 21:40:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sun Aug  4 20:40:25 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020805081803.B24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
 <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]>
 <20020805081803.B24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <p04330100b973a30616e9@[198.123.22.175]>

At 8:18 AM +1000 8/5/02, Timothy Little wrote:
>David P. Summers wrote:
>>  Missiles are very damaging.  However, they also can be intercepted.
>>  The utility of missiles depends on how many missiles you have vs how
>>  much point defense you foe has.
>
>Yes, I'd noticed that too.  In particular, the existing missiles and
>launchers can be greatly upgraded to achieve much better results
>against point defense for rather little cost.  However, given other
>comments it looks like doing so would take it even further away from
>previous versions of Traveller. :-/

I'm not sure about missles, but in fact playtest versions of 
starships had "point defense lasers" (less damage, higher rof).
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 21:55:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Sun Aug  4 20:55:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat
References: <c5.26be7ee0.2a7caa89@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4DF711.5C3C76CD@pobox.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>  >In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships which have an armor
>  >factor of 13 or less.
>
> With a fusion gun?  I'm sorry, you must be using rules I'm not familiar with.
>  I was thinking of High Guard.
> _______________________________________________

In sufficient numbers they can _mission-kill_ (i.e. render combat-ineffective)
ships which have armor 13 or less, according to HG2.

A code-5 fusion gun will hit a agility-6 ship of greater than 20kdton with a roll
of 10 on 2d6.  It penetrates code-9 sand on a 8.

Against a ship with Armor-13, one in 36 fusion gun hits will do a Weapon -1 on
the Surface Explosion table.  Enough of these, and the target vessel will have no
weapons, which will render it unable to perform its mission, hence the term
mission-kill.  The ship can still maneuver and escape.

Against Armor-11, fuel hits are possible, and the target can be disabled by loss
of fuel.

In both cases, many hits are required, but that's why it says "in sufficient
numbers".

WKH


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 21:56:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Sun Aug  4 20:56:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat
References: <c5.26be7ee0.2a7caa89@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4DF72F.D22EE3FC@pobox.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>  >In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships which have an armor
>  >factor of 13 or less.
>
> With a fusion gun?  I'm sorry, you must be using rules I'm not familiar with.
>  I was thinking of High Guard.
> _______________________________________________

In sufficient numbers they can _mission-kill_ (i.e. render combat-ineffective)
ships which have armor 13 or less, according to HG2.

A code-5 fusion gun will hit a agility-6 ship of greater than 20kdton with a roll
of 10 on 2d6.  It penetrates code-9 sand on a 8.

Against a ship with Armor-13, one in 36 fusion gun hits will do a Weapon -1 on
the Surface Explosion table.  Enough of these, and the target vessel will have no
weapons, which will render it unable to perform its mission, hence the term
mission-kill.  The ship can still maneuver and escape.

Against Armor-11, fuel hits are possible, and the target can be disabled by loss
of fuel.

In both cases, many hits are required, but that's why it says "in sufficient
numbers".

WKH


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 22:00:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Sun Aug  4 21:00:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat HULL THICKNESS LIMITATION
References: <190.ad335f8.2a7ca953@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4DF7E3.D8D36B56@pobox.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>  >HULL
>  >185.000 tons standard, 2,590.000 cubic meters, Planetoid Configuration
>
> In a Planetoid Configuration of this size the maximum thickness of the outer
> hull is 0.6 meters and likely much less.  If this ship were 185,000 tons, the
> maximum outer thickness of the outer hull would be 6.0 meters.  Yet in both
> cases they are considered to be naturally armor 3.  I think there should be a
> lower limit on allowable tonnages for Planetoid and Buffered Planetoid ships.

Perhaps this could be a house rule.  I am not aware of such a rule in HG2.

WKH


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 22:10:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 21:10:47 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020805075953.A24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
 <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <20020805075953.A24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3436.64.8.3.28.1028520584.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

> Oh.  Here was I thinking that the missiles were suboptimal and could
> have been designed better and cheaper.  For example, it is trivial to
> design a missile turret that can launch and control 20 missiles per
> combat turn, each costing less than half as much with better
> acceleration and damage.

There is always the ability to design bigger and faster missiles using
GURPS VEHICLES and the guidelines presented with TRAVELLER itself.  A
friend of mine created an inertial guided missile that removes the
explosive warhead from the missile and turned it into a kinetic kill
device.  It all depends on the choices made by the game designer as well
as the GM.  Each change you make to *your* traveller universe takes it a
little further away from the "official" traveller universe as presented in
GURPS TRAVELLER (which doesn't bother me one bit!!!)


>>  I personally do not use the GURPS STARSHIP combat rules as
>>  presented,
>
> Do you use something close, or a drastic re-write?  (Or not at all?)

What I use is based essentially on GURPS TRAVELLER and MAYDAY vector
rules.  Missiles in my games end up being really NASTY!  In my games,
fighters can move to within passive sensor range of their enemy, send
information back to a missile frigate that is outside of sensor range of
an enemy target.  The missile frigate then starts a high speed run against
the intended target and launches its missiles outside of sensor range of
an enemy ship.  Since the missiles are now separated from the ship which
has not been seen on enemy sensor screens as yet, they coast in undetected
until it is FAR too late.  In my games?  It is theoretically possible for
a missile to slam into a ship hull at speeds in excess of 90 hexes per
turn...  Do the math and see how much damage a single missile moving at 90
hexes per turn does ;)


>> nor am I pleased with rendition of the Meson weapons in the GURPS
>> TRAVELLER rule set.
>
> They do look a little icky to me too.  What bothers you most?


What bothers me most is that Meson Screens in High Guard usually had a
GOOD chance of stopping the damage *entirely*.  In GURPS TRAVELLER, Meson
screens *always* let damage through.  In HIGH GUARD, the odds of securing
a meson hit to begin with against an unscreened target is rather High
(statistically speaking).  In GURPS, the way to have a highter potential
for hitting, you increase the odds of hitting by putting out more
firepower.  In my opinion, the best way to have handled Meson weaponry
would have been to lower their effective damage, but increase its rate of
fire.  Why?

Rememember in High Guard, the higher your "letter" value of weapon versus
the letter value of the hull size - you got 1 crit hit?  Same "effect"
could be secured in a GURPS TRAVELLER game by using the higher rate of
fire aspect.  The better you roll to hit, the more hits you secure against
your target.  Thus, for me, the best way to build GURPS TRAVELLER meson
weapons is to have them do less damage, but have a higher rate of fire -
increasing their accuracy value.  A roll made by say, +6, means the ship
took what, 3 hits?  And if the ship doesn't have meson screens, three hits
are NASTY.


Oh well.  The best thing about GURPS TRAVELLER and GURPS VEHICLES - is you
can create *any* technological innovations you want for your campaign. 
You can build internally consistant weapon systems you can think of that
are presented within both TRAVELLER and GURPS VEHICLES.  You want fire and
forget Missiles for your Traveller Universe?  You can build them.  YOu
want robotic ships?  GURPS VEHICLES has rules for it.  You want to know
what the results are of a 50 lb rock tossed via a Trebuchet against a Far
Trader's hull?  GURPS VEHICLES has rules for it.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 22:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug  4 21:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020805081803.B24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
 <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]>
 <20020805081803.B24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3688.64.8.3.28.1028521212.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

> It seems that would be a good idea if your ship needs to spend a long
> time away from resupply, but not good for actual battle capability.
> Using the full Vehicles rules, I was unable to design a craft that
> could mount enough point defense weapons to last more than a round or
> two.
>
> The other problem I noted is the short range of direct-fire weapons.
> None of the presented beams could touch anything beyond 30 hexes.
> Missiles (even the wimpy predesigned ones) can hit from 50 or so
> hexes.

What you do is build lasers whose only purpose of existance is to damage
missiles.  Build those lasers so that you have a high rate of fire.  Keep
in mind that missiles are fired upon during the point defense phase...




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 22:24:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 21:24:04 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805002239.02142128@mail.charter.net>

What is the TL of  the Imperium & the Terran Confederation in the Year 1000 
setting of T20?



-----------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Whether you're Bill Clinton or the head of a large
corporation like Enron, it seems the best defense
in any legal matter is to act like you just arrived
on the planet." -- Spencer F. Katt
-----------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 22:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Sun Aug  4 21:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net><m3ofclg93m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org><004301c23a04$8cdeff60$0112bd50@martinjd><m3eldhkv8o.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org><00aa01c23a5c$4f293ca0$5d0bbd50@martinjd> <m3bs8lj5c2.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> <012601c23a78$2c1d4f00$5d0bbd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3D4E00D2.3BF3156C@pobox.com>

MJ Dougherty wrote:

> >
> > Well, if you can damp inertia and can create artificial gravity, I'm
> > pretty certain that you can fake high-g effects (or rather, create
> > them).  I don't think that the physics would necessarily be all that
> > difficult; trivial, probably, for a society which has those things.
> >
>
> If you can do these things, then simulator problems I've outlined are
> greatly diminished (most of them). I don't imagine this sort of thing is
> available for $35 in a playstation game, though.

Remember the movie "The Last Starfighter", where the video game was actually
a simulation?

I could see the IN covertly running a string of "reality arcades", where
kids can come and play the latest simulator games against each other.  The
best 'players' win a visit from an IN recruiter.

WKH


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 22:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Sun Aug  4 21:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEKLCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net><m3ofclg93m.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org><004301c23a04$8cdeff60$0112bd50@martinjd><m3eldhkv8o.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org><00aa01c23a5c$4f293ca0$5d0bbd50@martinjd> <m3bs8lj5c2.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> <012601c23a78$2c1d4f00$5d0bbd50@martinjd> <3D4E00D2.3BF3156C@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <00ed01c23c3b$7d2af720$9307b286@Shane>

Bill Hopper wrote:
> Remember the movie "The Last Starfighter", where the video game was
actually
> a simulation?
>
> I could see the IN covertly running a string of "reality arcades", where
> kids can come and play the latest simulator games against each other.  The
> best 'players' win a visit from an IN recruiter.

Though for optimum testing conditions, parts of the video game arcade should
periodically explode, catch fire and/or depressurize during the games.
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- IN Recyc System Maintenance Sim v3.0 - So real you can
smell it.
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug  4 23:40:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sun Aug  4 22:40:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Astronomy Boffin Question
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEKAIKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

How big can a rocky asteroid be and still be irregular?

_______________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 02:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 01:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Warghame ----> Nightmare?
Message-ID: <memo.609810@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <194.af51b03.2a7f3c97@aol.com>
> >But seriously, the comm delay and limited intelligence turned a 
> wargame into
> >a nightmare.
> 
> Commo delays and limited intelligence are half the fun of a decent 
> wargame. I love large, multiplayer exercises -- the umpires don't have 
> to insert the "fog of war" because the players provide it themselves!

It's the only kind of wargame I enjoy...

I remember a very good one with 4 teams, each in separate rooms with maps 
& radios, plus an umpire team. 2 teams on each side... but the radios were 
on a common frequency! We were allowed to use runners as well, but only to 
the umpires, not to the other team on our side (we could send them written 
messages, but via the umpires which meant they were often garbled or not 
delivered). 

Then one of us realised that the other team on our side was in the room 
next door... so we hung out the window and passed messages that way :-)

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 03:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 02:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat
Message-ID: <d1.1c5d7500.2a7f99af@aol.com>

 >>  >In sufficient numbers they can kill capital ships which have an armor
 >>  >factor of 13 or less.
 >>
 >> With a fusion gun?  I'm sorry, you must be using rules I'm not familiar 
with.
 >>  I was thinking of High Guard.
 >> _______________________________________________
 >
 >In sufficient numbers they can _mission-kill_ (i.e. render 
combat-ineffective)
 >ships which have armor 13 or less, according to HG2.
 >
 >A code-5 fusion gun will hit a agility-6 ship of greater than 20kdton with 
a roll
 >of 10 on 2d6.  It penetrates code-9 sand on a 8.
 >
 >Against a ship with Armor-13, one in 36 fusion gun hits will do a Weapon -1 
on
 >the Surface Explosion table.  Enough of these, and the target vessel will 
have no
 >weapons, which will render it unable to perform its mission, hence the term
 >mission-kill.  The ship can still maneuver and escape.

My tables say a factor 5 fusion gun will hit a 20kton AG6 ship on a roll of 
(6 base + 6 agility - 1 size = ) 11+.  Yeah, I see your point, though I would 
take repairs into account.  But I think a capital ship has armor 15.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 03:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 02:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804192145.024cac00@192.168.0.1>
References: <02080313391901.00601@linux> <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020804192145.024cac00@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020805191412.A25687@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> At 08:19 AM 8/5/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
> >What does that matter?  They obviously don't need trade for survival.
> >It's not like they'll starve if you isolate them.
> 
> On what do you base that on?

The fact that high-pop worlds (including airless rockballs) have very
little trade compared to their population.  If they relied on external
trade for food they would all have starved to death long ago.

Look at Kwai Ching, for example (as one you should be familiar with :)
Its per-capita imports from all the other systems in the subsector
combined are about 0.8 Cr/week.  Whatever the population is eating
every day, it isn't imported food.  Kwai Ching actually has
significantly more than the median per-capita trade for high-pop
vacuum worlds.

Obviously most of them (probably all) have local means of production.
They may import some luxury foods (who doesn't?), but certainly not
staples.  This is not surprising -- the level of technology required
to grow food plants and animals is not exactly excessive or costly,
and the side-benefits include the ability to recycle your organic
wastes, air and water.  That's much better than importing food at a
large markup.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 03:30:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 02:30:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Junk in space
In-Reply-To: <20804.181110.0M6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020730104900.B2820@freeman.little-possums.net> <20804.181110.0M6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020805192941.B25687@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Somehow, I doubt that the speed of sound in starship hull material is
> 20 km/sec!

I used 1 MJ as a *maximum* energy, for a 30-gram object travelling at
10 km/s.  If you want to drop the mass to 5 grams, drop the energy to
250 kJ.

And yes, I expect the speed of sound in starship hull material to be
no less than 20 km/s.

Hull armour is known to be both extremely rigid *and* requires a lot
of energy to penetrate.  Note that some existing materials already
exceed 15 km/s, and materials in the Far Future are likely to be even
more so.  I would not rule out 40+ km/s for lightweight TL12 armour.


> Are you going to dodge? Or try to blow it up?

Either would be easy.  Let the ship's captain decide.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 03:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 02:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <006701c23c1f$2baff600$195d8690@computer>
References: <20020804232303.7408.33320.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <006701c23c1f$2baff600$195d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <20020805193038.C25687@freeman.little-possums.net>

Alan Bradley wrote:
> I believe he was being sarcastic.

No, quite serious.


> At least, if _I_ was planning a rockball colony, they would have
> extensive greenhouses.

Given trade figures in Traveller, they do.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 03:42:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Mon Aug  5 02:42:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <181.c196c70.2a7ed4f5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPAEBKEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

It is canon, Traveller has whopping big fleet carriers (not to mention the
Tigress class BBs) which carry huge number of fighters.

The imperium obviously believes they have a need for large numbers of
fighters. AFAIK carrier squadrons are equated with cruiser squadrons (see
Fighting Ships) and presumably carry out some of the same missions. Commerce
raiding is possible but would you need a fleet carrier for that?

So given that carrier squadrons exist if they are totally useless against
other cruiser squadrons what would they be used for. I submit it could also
mean that point defence systems are not as good as the navy would have us
believe.

Antony


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 04:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Freelance Traveller)
Date: Mon Aug  5 03:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] [www] 5 Aug 2002 - Freelance Traveller NOT Updated :(
Message-ID: <o7jsku0jgg9j6krr0eajhh6hu0q40eqjoc@4ax.com>

Due to an unexpected confluence of factors, mostly involving the effect of
weather on human activities (we lost power Friday evening when a tree took
down some wires down the block during the storm, and I spent most of
Saturday recovering from a fifteen-hour outage), I haven't been able to get
an update together for this week.  However, if I can survive this week at
work, and if we don't get another frog-drowner of a storm that kills power,
I'll post an update this coming weekend, and, if I'm lucky, a *really*
*massive* update a week later - I have the intervening week as vacation!

Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture 
Enterprises, 1977-2000.  Use of the trademark in 
this notice and in the referenced materials is not 
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.freelancetraveller.com
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
editor@freelancetraveller.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 04:21:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 03:21:08 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller - more
In-Reply-To: <186.b850971.2a77a260@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20805.002325.7j9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>  >The W-71 
>  >thermonuclear device had a yield of 5 megatons.  I feel it's 
>  >fair to put the typical Traveller missile in this yield range.
>
> no, it's not.  that's huge.  as I understand it the united states doesn't 
> even have weapons that large in its inventory anymore -- they're all in the 
> 10 to 100 kton range.
>
> consider a ship with 10 missile bays.  at 30 missiles per salvo, 100 salvos 
> per bay, 10 bays, that's 30,000 weapons.  I think that that's more than the 
> entire present world inventory, on one dinky ship.  that's a lot of 
> fissionable material, and it all has a shelf-life, and each warhead has to 
> fit onto a relatively small missile.  five megs is too much.

Actually, given some of the other tech, the weapons could be fusion
warheads that don't *need* a fission trigger.

>>As for nuclear weapons effects in space, the Project Orion 
>>ship was using fairly "small" yields at a distance of several 
>>hundred meters from the pusher plate, that was high strength 
>>steel with another material for a coating.  Too close, and 
>>even the small bomb would vaporize the pusher plate.
>
> well then it sounds like nuclear weapons are all anyone would need or want, 
> because no ship could withstand them.  unless, of course, as someone said 
> elsewhere in this packet, "by tech 12 or 13 they darn well ought to have 
> solved that problem".

The problem is that given anti-missile lasers, you aren't going to get
a nuke that *close*.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 04:23:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 03:23:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804223247.0237e008@192.168.0.1>
References: <20020804232303.7408.33320.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <006701c23c1f$2baff600$195d8690@computer> <5.1.0.14.0.20020804223247.0237e008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020805202103.D25687@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> The supply ships stop coming...and you're only producing enough food
> locally to feed 50-60% of the population.

If you can find a high-pop world that has enough trade to feed just a
tenth of its population, even if it was importing nothing but food, I
will be surprised.

Most of them don't import enough to account for even 2% of their food
requirements, still assuming that they import nothing but food.

A 40-50% local shortfall is unsupportable by a factor of 30 or so.  It
is much more likely that most of them are producing amply enough to
feed their population.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 04:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Aug  5 03:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805002239.02142128@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <005401c23c6c$91137060$be09bd50@martinjd>

> What is the TL of  the Imperium & the Terran Confederation in the Year
1000
> setting of T20?

The Impeirum is TL 14 mostly, with Tl 15 just creeping in over the last few
years.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 04:32:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Aug  5 03:32:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Warghame ----> Nightmare?
References: <194.af51b03.2a7f3c97@aol.com>
Message-ID: <007601c23c6c$bec65a40$be09bd50@martinjd>

> >But seriously, the comm delay and limited intelligence turned a wargame
into
> >a nightmare.
>
> Commo delays and limited intelligence are half the fun of a decent
wargame. I
> love large, multiplayer exercises -- the umpires don't have to insert the
> "fog of war" because the players provide it themselves!
>

OUrs certainly did. This Nightmare was the best fun wargame I've ever
played, BTW.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 04:33:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Aug  5 03:33:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020804173620.8351.57196.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <006901c23c1f$2dd85440$195d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <008901c23c6c$e2004c00$be09bd50@martinjd>

>
> Hmm. I've always wanted to run an Arbellatra vs Gustus game. Maybe I
should
> actually do it.

You should. Then I can play


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 05:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Aug  5 04:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Pebble Class Attack Boat
In-Reply-To: <d1.1c5d7500.2a7f99af@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4F04E9.7899.17C7EF@localhost>

On 5 Aug 2002 at 5:04, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> My tables say a factor 5 fusion gun will hit a 20kton AG6 ship on a
> roll of (6 base + 6 agility - 1 size = ) 11+.  Yeah, I see your
> point, though I would take repairs into account.  But I think a
> capital ship has armor 15. 

Armour 15 is only legal for planetoids and buffered planetoids until 
TL15, remember.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 05:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 04:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <3436.64.8.3.28.1028520584.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com> <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net> <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <20020805075953.A24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <3436.64.8.3.28.1028520584.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020805215043.E25687@freeman.little-possums.net>

hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> There is always the ability to design bigger and faster missiles using
> GURPS VEHICLES and the guidelines presented with TRAVELLER itself.

Yes, that's what I'm wondering about.  Do I want to design better
weapons and tactics for my Traveller game, at the expense of making it
less like Traveller?  Or do I try to rationalise the existing ones to
maintain compatibility with what other people have done?


>  A friend of mine created an inertial guided missile that removes
> the explosive warhead from the missile and turned it into a kinetic
> kill device.

Yes; either remove the chemical warhead or replace it with a fusion
warhead.  A chemical explosive makes little sense.  Even the standard
missiles accelerate to 72 km/s in the first round -- putting a
chemical explosive in them is a bit like putting a spring-loaded
boxing glove on an anti-tank penetrator.


> The missile frigate then starts a high speed run against the
> intended target and launches its missiles outside of sensor range of
> an enemy ship.

That works under the standard rules, too.  I've had vague thoughts in
the same direction, but didn't actually get round to testing them.


> Do the math and see how much damage a single missile moving at 90
> hexes per turn does ;)

Yes, I know.  Kinetic energy *kills*.  Give the missiles better
thrusters and an extra-heavy frame for even more (unnecessary) damage
with less run-up required.  You could even put a bunch of them on a
bus chassis so they can all share a power plant for the initial boost,
and make the individual energy banks much smaller.


> What bothers me most is that Meson Screens in High Guard usually had a
> GOOD chance of stopping the damage *entirely*.  In GURPS TRAVELLER, Meson
> screens *always* let damage through.

??  Not as I read it.

A 100k-dton ship with 7000 meson screen modules has a maximum DR vs
meson guns of about 180000.  Usually the operator will manage to
succeed on their roll by 4 and get half that, 90000.

A spinal meson gun typically does between 60000-87000 damage, so it
will usually only penetrate if the operator doesn't perform well.

It is not true that damage *always* gets through.  Granted, that is a
*lot* of shielding; 7% screens by volume.  It is protecting against
the biggest weapon in the basic book, though!


> Thus, for me, the best way to build GURPS TRAVELLER meson weapons is
> to have them do less damage, but have a higher rate of fire -
> increasing their accuracy value.

Yes, this might have been better.


> Oh well.  The best thing about GURPS TRAVELLER and GURPS VEHICLES - is you
> can create *any* technological innovations you want for your campaign. 

Yes, I quite enjoy this part.  I just have to keep reminding myself to
tone things down from the standard GURPS tech level assumptions, or I
will very rapidly find myself unable to steal other people's ideas for
my now ex-Traveller game :)


> You want to know what the results are of a 50 lb rock tossed via a
> Trebuchet against a Far Trader's hull?  GURPS VEHICLES has rules for
> it.

Yes, this sort of very wide scope is what I like best about GURPS in
general.  Given Traveller's range of planetary tech levels, this might
easily come up in a game!


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 05:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 04:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Landgrab Vilis
Message-ID: <200208051155.MCP01180@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mark Urbin says
>If John doesn't mind, I could do Garda-Vilis.
>Filling in details around his outlines or vice-versa.

Sounds OK. I seem to remember some adventure that took place 
on Garda-Vilis, and it mentions Vilis as well, so I'm going 
to have to take a look at that.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 06:03:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shadowcat)
Date: Mon Aug  5 05:03:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Large Scale Games, One Traveller, one WW3[Long]
In-Reply-To: <194.af51b03.2a7f3c97@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D4E1A82.455.14DD3F@localhost>

couple of examples come to mind from the distant past, one of 
which was actually part of the playtesting for the Combined Arms 
Command Decision Rules.

many years ago, GDW along with the Central Illinois Tabletop 
Warrriors ran a couple of megagames which were part of the 
Wilderness Project, the first was the wilderness campaign from the 
American Civil War, and the second, a year later roughly, was the 
first day of WW3 based along the lines of Red Storm Rising. these 
games took place in a classroom building at the University of 
Illinois and involved dozens of players and judges. communications 
lag, fog of war and just general confusion, along with assorted rules 
problems best left for another forum, made for an interesting day.

The second game was a traveller game at a previous Winter Wars 
a couple of years after the historic Shadows tournament, which 
was called Diplomatic Mission. This was a 6 hour game with 24 
players that dealt with the reopening of trade to a redzoned world.
One Team was the on planet contact team, the other team was the 
bureaucrats and nobles who had to make the final decisions based 
on the information they were getting from the planet. the off planet 
team was a jump away, and this was represented by a 15 minute 
time lag. each team had different objectives, and each player had 
personal objectives and goals, so not everyone was working 
together or even on the same side actually.

This game lasted 6 very hectic hours, and had a grand total of 2 die 
rolls, the contact teams psi expert was revealed as a spy, and the 
teams security officer executed him on the spot pretty much.

I have seriously considered reconstructing the aspects of this 
game for another convention, or even as an IRC game, but there 
are too many problems for it to work as an IRC game.






From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 06:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 05:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <3688.64.8.3.28.1028521212.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com> <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net> <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]> <20020805081803.B24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <3688.64.8.3.28.1028521212.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020805221551.F25687@freeman.little-possums.net>

hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> What you do is build lasers whose only purpose of existance is to
> damage missiles.  Build those lasers so that you have a high rate of
> fire.

High RoF doesn't do a lot.  It just counts as a bonus to hit in the
combat system.  e.g. Multiplying the RoF by 16 gives you +4 bonus.
This would mean 2 extra hits per shot, except:

For the same volume requirement, your weapon has to use about 10 times
less energy per shot.  That cuts the damage by a factor of about 3,
which doesn't matter a lot against the standard missiles.  It will
however reduce your range by a factor of 3 -- not a problem, you say,
because you only need less than a hex?  Range directly determines
accuracy, which will thus drop by 3.

The net effect is a +1 to hit.  You're almost back where you started,
except that now your weapon is greatly restricted in its utility for
any other role.

I've been along that route :-/


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 06:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 05:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
Message-ID: <2da64f2ddca2.2ddca22da64f@us.army.mil>

----- Original Message -----
From: Hunter Gordon <trav@RPGRealms.com>
Date: Sunday, August 4, 2002 11:45 am
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)

> 
> On 8/4/2002 at 4:21 PM Antony Farrell wrote:
> 
> >Was that spam and eggs
> >or spam, spam egs and spam?
> 
> Ok gotta keep it on topic!
> 
> Pardons if this has actually been covered previously.
> 
> So does SPAM survive the Rule of Man, the Long Night and into the 
> Third Imperium? If so, is it just a Solomani thing, or have the 
> Vilani and others come to enjoy this uniquely Terran... ummm .... 
> stuff? I'm just picturing a group of adventurers finding an old 
> Rule of Man cache, stockpiled with cans of good old SPAM!

Ah, you should have saved that question for a Newbie Essay [tm]! ;-)

Actually, it's quite plausible that SPAM was a significant factor in the 
Solomanification of former Vilani worlds.  To wit:

1.  SPAM would likely be included in relief aid to former Vilani worlds 
ravaged by Terran-introduced pandemics.
2.  Given that SPAM does not require processing by shugiili, and that 
SPAM has a relatively long shelf life ("long" in a geological sense, 
that is), it would go far in breaking the power of the shugiili in 
Vilani society.
3.  Add to these factors the relative conservatism of Vilani culture and 
you find that, once SPAM was introduced on former Vilani-ruled worlds, 
it tended to remain a staple of the diet on those worlds, thus ensuring 
that SPAM would continue to be consumed (if not necessarily enjoyed) up 
into M:1100.
4.  Until such time as the fine folks at Hormel licensed the production 
of SPAM on worlds other than Earth, the Terrans would be the only source 
of this staple, thus economically binding the former Vilani worlds 
closer to Terra.  Even after SPAM production began on worlds other than 
Earth, genuine Terran SPAM was held to be superior, commanding premium 
prices.  This coopted Sharushiid into the ruling SPAM consortium.
5.  We can thus also see that the Solomani Rim War, with its focus on 
the capture of Terra, was driven by the desire to control the original 
point source of SPAM.

QED. ;-)

Hmmm.  Perhaps I should write up Hormel Foods as a megacorp using the 
Universal Corporate Profile from _101 Corporations_....



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 06:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 05:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <2e4d282e3963.2e39632e4d28@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Date: Sunday, August 4, 2002 3:26 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller


<<snip>>
> > 
> > Army?  What army?
> 
> I'll believe that when I see it. This sort of talking has always 
> turned 
> out to be wishful thinking in the past, and I see no reason why it 
> isn't now. It's all very well while you're thrashing low-tech 
> thrid-
> worlders, but sooner or later there'll be another first-world vs 
> first-
> world scrap, and spec ops teams relying on vast amounts of support 
> just 
> won't cut it.
> 
I refer readers to the Fehrenbach quote the opens Chapter 1 of GT:GF.  
Words to the effect of (quoted from memory):

You may fly over a land forever; you may bomb it, atomize it, sterilize 
it and wipe it clean of life; but if you wish to defend it for 
civilization, you must do this the way the Romans did, by putting your 
young men into the mud.

ObTrav:  1: The quote was used in a Trav book.  2: The eternal Trav 
debate of "why an Army"?  


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 06:56:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 05:56:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020805191412.A25687@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804192145.024cac00@192.168.0.1>
 <02080313391901.00601@linux>
 <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
 <02080313391901.00601@linux>
 <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020804192145.024cac00@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805084630.018ca4e0@192.168.0.1>

At 07:14 PM 8/5/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
> > At 08:19 AM 8/5/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
> > >What does that matter?  They obviously don't need trade for survival.
> > >It's not like they'll starve if you isolate them.
> > On what do you base that on?
>The fact that high-pop worlds (including airless rockballs) have very
>little trade compared to their population.  If they relied on external
>trade for food they would all have starved to death long ago.

That would depend on what they have to trade and what planets are 
convenient trading partners.
It's not a bad rule of thumb though.

>Look at Kwai Ching, for example (as one you should be familiar with :)
>Its per-capita imports from all the other systems in the subsector
>combined are about 0.8 Cr/week.  Whatever the population is eating
>every day, it isn't imported food.  Kwai Ching actually has
>significantly more than the median per-capita trade for high-pop
>vacuum worlds.

Kwai Ching is an interesting example.  They really have no choice but to 
produce the majority, if not all of their food.
They are not part of an established trading federation, and their imports 
are spotty at best due to ethically challenged merchant activity.
(that's according to GT: Behind the Claw, and the example Tim is using.)

>Obviously most of them (probably all) have local means of production.
>They may import some luxury foods (who doesn't?), but certainly not
>staples.  This is not surprising -- the level of technology required
>to grow food plants and animals is not exactly excessive or costly,
>and the side-benefits include the ability to recycle your organic
>wastes, air and water.  That's much better than importing food at a
>large markup.

To produce a variety of food that would keep a large population happy 
requires a large amount of space, water and energy.
If you have a very strict government, you can enforce a limited diet (Grand 
Chairman Mao XXXIX says you should eat green
Cereal for breakfast with soy milk, green bread (with a slice of hamster 
meat if you make your quota) for lunch, and green soup for dinner).
If you have bulk traders making a regular run through the system, and there 
is an Agricultural planet on their loop, the rockball can get a wide 
variety of foodstuffs without the large markup.

If it's not economically viable to produce 100% of the food locally, why 
should they do it?



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 07:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 06:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPAEBKEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <181.c196c70.2a7ed4f5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805085604.018d7340@192.168.0.1>

At 05:30 PM 8/5/2002 +0800, Antony Farrell wrote:
>It is canon, Traveller has whopping big fleet carriers (not to mention the
>Tigress class BBs) which carry huge number of fighters.
>
>The imperium obviously believes they have a need for large numbers of
>fighters. AFAIK carrier squadrons are equated with cruiser squadrons (see
>Fighting Ships) and presumably carry out some of the same missions. Commerce
>raiding is possible but would you need a fleet carrier for that?

Aren't fighters viable against lower tech ships?
The Imperium does maintain a tech advantage over most of it's neighbors.
Especially in those smaller governments in Reavers' Deep or Spinward of the 
Marches.
Jump in system, and swarms of fighters are bloody everywhere, at least in 
the view of the locals....

Nice saber rattle, if the Imperium can put 10+ TL E-F fighters against 
every TL A-C SDB or customs cutter the locals have.

This frees up the destroyers and Cruisers to knock out any Capital ships 
and look menacing in Orbit.

>So given that carrier squadrons exist if they are totally useless against
>other cruiser squadrons what would they be used for. I submit it could also
>mean that point defence systems are not as good as the navy would have us
>believe.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 07:02:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 06:02:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Landgrab Vilis
In-Reply-To: <200208051155.MCP01180@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805090123.018d3468@192.168.0.1>

At 07:55 AM 8/5/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>Mark Urbin says
> >If John doesn't mind, I could do Garda-Vilis.
> >Filling in details around his outlines or vice-versa.
>Sounds OK. I seem to remember some adventure that took place
>on Garda-Vilis, and it mentions Vilis as well, so I'm going
>to have to take a look at that.

Broadsword.  I have a copy.




---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 07:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon Aug  5 06:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020805041046.16273.821.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <003101c23c82$2a486dc0$b35d8690@computer>

> From: Mark
> It will be the wackos waiting for the world to end who demand that 100% of
> all needed foodstuffs be grown locally.
> Everybody sane knows that tons of fresh food arrive every week...
> Ya, that algae is good for you, but it tastes funny and turns everything
> green!

First: why are you talking about algae? Algae is for fish.

Secondly, you can probably produce _more_ food than you need, and at least
some of your "agricultural land" is likely to be used as recreational areas,
as a reserve of biomass, and as supplementary life support.

Otherwise your life support systems lack redundancy.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 07:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 06:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020805202103.D25687@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804223247.0237e008@192.168.0.1>
 <20020804232303.7408.33320.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <006701c23c1f$2baff600$195d8690@computer>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020804223247.0237e008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805090845.01831e50@192.168.0.1>

At 08:21 PM 8/5/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
> > The supply ships stop coming...and you're only producing enough food
> > locally to feed 50-60% of the population.
>
>If you can find a high-pop world that has enough trade to feed just a
>tenth of its population, even if it was importing nothing but food, I
>will be surprised.

I'll have to dig through the back lists, but I remember detailed analysis 
of the CT trading rules being done years ago.
It was determined that published trade rules didn't fit the big picture.
Large bulk traders were needed in core sectors to make it work.
Some of these traders were designed and published.

>Most of them don't import enough to account for even 2% of their food
>requirements, still assuming that they import nothing but food.
>
>A 40-50% local shortfall is unsupportable by a factor of 30 or so.  It
>is much more likely that most of them are producing amply enough to
>feed their population.

I agree with you in places like the Marches, or even more frontier settings.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 07:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Aug  5 06:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: JTAS
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D00@USCHM203>

Just wanted to add my vote. JTAS is well worth the money. The archives alone
are worth many times the subscription price.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 07:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Mon Aug  5 06:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
In-Reply-To: <2da64f2ddca2.2ddca22da64f@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020805084634.00a56560@minn.net>

At 03:46 PM 8/5/2002 +0300, john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:

>4.  Until such time as the fine folks at Hormel licensed the production 
>of SPAM on worlds other than Earth, the Terrans would be the only source 
>of this staple, thus economically binding the former Vilani worlds 
>closer to Terra.  Even after SPAM production began on worlds other than 
>Earth, genuine Terran SPAM was held to be superior, commanding premium 
>prices.  This coopted Sharushiid into the ruling SPAM consortium.
>5.  We can thus also see that the Solomani Rim War, with its focus on 
>the capture of Terra, was driven by the desire to control the original 
>point source of SPAM.
>
>QED. ;-)
>
>Hmmm.  Perhaps I should write up Hormel Foods as a megacorp using the 
>Universal Corporate Profile from _101 Corporations_....

The canned chili is okay too, I usually lay a couple of slices of processed
cheese food product on top when I microsave it. 

(Across cyberspace, someone asks himself: What about processed cheese food
products in the Third Imperium?)


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 07:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 06:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
Message-ID: <200208051354.MCT02502@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leslie Bates says
>What about processed cheese food
>products in the Third Imperium?)

This is along the lines of "great cultural contributions by 
the Solomani".

Baseball
Beer
SPAM
Processed cheese product(in all its various forms)
Artificial butter flavored topping
French fries
Sliced bread
Microwave oven
Burrito
"Sports" drink (including canned sweat)
Pop music
"Shtick" (I'm sorry, I can't see a Vilani stand-up comic)

________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 08:11:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Aug  5 07:11:41 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D03@USCHM203>

Message: 2
From: sneadj@mindspring.com
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 22:16:45 -0700
>John Snead wrote:

>ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>) wrote:

>> "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> writes:
>> > 
>> > Personally, I find it hard to shed many tears for Hiroshima,
>> > Nagasaki, or Dresden.
>> 
>> I dunno--the firebombing of Dresden is IMHO one of the worst war
>> crimes committed by the US.  Esp. the bit about destroying emergency
>> vehicles...
>> 
>> That no-one was ever strung up for it is a travesty.  We're supposed
>> to be better than that.

>Agreed.  Hiroshima and Nagasaki can at least be argued as being 
>better than the alternatives (although I've heard several different 
>PoVs about how exactly necessary bombing Nagasaki was).  
>However, Dresden is an amazingly clear cut case.  It was an act of 
>terror and vengeance easily as bad as anything the other side did 
>in it's bombing of civilian targets.

You're both right, and I'm not proud of how I feel about it. It's nothing
personal against Germans as a people. My best friend's parents are from
Germany, and both his grandfathers served in the Wehrmacht. I've played
soccer for several German-American teams, and took 6 years of German
language in HS.
It's just that, knowing the barbarism committed by that regime, and having
seen more than a few older folks around town with faded tattoes on their
forearms, I sometimes think the bomb should have been dropped on Berlin or
Hamburg(yes, I know the war in Europe ended before that was possible).
As atrociously as the Japanese behaved, they never committed organized and
institutionalized genocide.
Regardless, as was said, in hindsight, and in the long run, it was probably
the wrong thing to do, and yes, we are supposed to be better than that. 
I honestly think that most of the time we are.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 08:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 07:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <200208051427.MCU00107@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Hurrel, Brian" says
<snip about how humans should be better to humans>

Yes, that's a nice sentiment.  But at what point do humans 
apply this to other sophonts?

I've read a pretty persuasive argument by Charles Pellegrino 
that outlines every reason why we should, even in the absence 
of direct contact, assume that a starfaring species, a 
species capable of manipulating the energies necessary to 
span stellar distances, is a direct apocalyptic threat to our 
existence, and that other species must make this same 
assumption about us.  The penalty for not making this 
assumption and being wrong is annihilation of your own 
species.  Even if there's a 1 in 10,000 chance you're wrong 
about the alien species' peaceful intentions, and they turn 
out to be hostile, being wrong means your species ceases to 
exist.

A ship making an interstellar crossing to our system near the 
speed of light is more of a weapon than all of our 
thermonuclear arsenal put together. (sorry - this isn't 
intended to bring up near-c rocks!).  So, are those ships we 
see coming (their antimatter rocket drive emissions will be 
quite distinctive) at near-c, are they peaceful emissaries, 
or weapons on the way.

And if we develop such rockets ourselves, and we know that it 
took us only 200 years from the advent of radio to the 
invention of the antimatter beamed-core rocket, what would we 
make of radio signals we detect from systems 20 or so light 
years away?  May we assume that the countdown has begun?

Humans have a built-in cultural inhibition against 
intraspecies murder - or else murder would be more common.  
But make it an alien species, and we won't have that 
inhibition by nature.  Any inhibition we have will come from 
intellect and not instinct.  And any restraint we have will 
be easy, perilously easy, to lose.  It will be difficult not 
to fear them by instinct.

We kill plenty of dolphins, if only by accident, and few 
humans see that as a tragic killing of a sophont.  We 
certainly don't generally see the killing of non-human 
possible sophonts as the same type of killing as a "homicide".
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 09:06:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Aug  5 08:06:42 2002
Subject: [TML] 40-year olds
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D06@USCHM203>

>From: Tod Glenn wrote:

>>> Why does the Army do this?  Because 40 year olds, as a
>>> whole, have sufficient problems that the Army knows it will
>>> lose more in attempting to incorporate them than it will
>>> gain.
>> 
>> No, no, no.  The reason the Army won't enlist you is because
>> the "useful lifetime" of the older soldier is shorter.
> 
> Well, now you are citing "the needs of the service" rather than the right
to
> serve.  I think the needs of the service should be consistently foremost.

>It should be noted that the same types of restrictions apply to other
>Federal service.  For example, you cannot apply to any federal law
>enforcement agency unless you will have enough years of service for
>retirement by age 55.  Meaning that after age 35, your too old to be an
FBI,
>DEA or ATF agent.

Unless you already have time in. If you served 4 years in the Navy(or any
service) when you were younger, you could actually join up to age 39 to have
your 20 years before 55.
I was casually looking into joining the NJ Air National Guard (because the
Corps sure as s*** isn't going to take my sorry out of shape butt back at
this age, and because I'm married, a father, and don't feel like running
around swamps anymore). I thought I would be automatically disqualified
after age 35, but my previous time in counts, so I actually have some leeway
should I decide to join.
The nice thing is I woudn't have to go to boot camp. The not-so-nice thing
is the ANG doesn't have dress blues.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 09:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Mon Aug  5 08:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: meduim navies
Message-ID: <3D4E984B.99EF2E24@mail.cswnet.com>

David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson writes:
>No, no, no, _Marc_ is receiving income from sending out _his_ >collected CT shards - Oh! I see what you meant.

Right. Shionthy [imtu] is one of those rare exceptions where the 3I gets
income from a red zone. Instead of getting its 30% in credits, it gets
the equivalent amount in CT-Shards. Note that this does not mean that
the Imperuim does not buy CT-Shards; they'll snatch everyone they can
get there hands on. But the planetary payment that Shionthy makes as a
member of the Imperuim [imtu] should be in CT-Shards.

Course thats all imtu and not landgrab...

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 09:28:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Aug  5 08:28:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Movies
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D08@USCHM203>

Regarding "accuracy" or "worthiness" of SF book to movie translations,
unless a group of die-hard fans can come up with the millions of dollars
neccessary to produce even the simplest sci-fi film, our choices are, for
the most part, going to be between "Paul Verhoeven's Starship Troopers" and
"No Starship Troopers".

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 10:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 09:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] places to get plots for adventures
Message-ID: <200208051614.MCX05321@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

just watching "Wait Until Dark".  incredibly good hook to get 
a traveller party into deep trouble
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 10:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 09:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
Message-ID: <200208051642.JAA31293@molly.iii.com>

David Shayne <daveshayne@ameritech.net> writes:
> 
>> Any clues?
>
>I couldn't find that info in any TNE source. There are charts for that
>in "World Builder's Handbook" for MT. Assuming for the moment that you
>don't have access to that very worthwhile publication I can give you
>some typical figures from that source.
>
>Smallest SGG radius = 20
>Average SGG radius ~= 60
>Highest SGG radius = 100
>
>Smallest LGG radius = 110
>Average LGG radius ~= 175
>Highest LGG radius = 240

Applying a realism check here, Jupiter, at size 88, is about the limit
for any sort of gas giant (assuming TNE size is in thousands of miles,
like CT size).
>
>Lowest GG density = .1
>Average GG density ~= .21
>Highest GG density = .3

Assuming that's g/cc, that's horribly wrong. Saturn has a density of 0.69
and is probably near the low end of possible densities; all of the other
gas giants have densities between 1 and 2.  A large gas giant, at 4x
jupiter mass and about the same diameter, would be as dense as the earth.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 10:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 09:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <20020805165054.0EF364501@mo120usjc.palm.net>

Alan Bradley <abradley1@bigpond.com> wrote:
>> From: Mark 
>> It will be the wackos waiting for the world to end who demand that 100% of 
>> all needed foodstuffs be grown locally. 
>> Everybody sane knows that tons of fresh food arrive every week... 
>> Ya, that algae is good for you, but it tastes funny and turns everything 
>> green! 
>First: why are you talking about algae? Algae is for fish. 

Spirulina. A type of blue-green algae which is very cheap to grow, is 70% protein, has required amino acids, and a wide range of required vitamins & minerals.  You can easily process it to a flour subsitute.  And o can feed it to the fish in your fish farms.
Very hard to beat in bang for buck catagory.

>Secondly, you can probably produce _more_ food than you need, and at least 
>some of your "agricultural land" is likely to be used as recreational areas, 
>as a reserve of biomass, and as supplementary life support. 

Yes, on  well run, well designed system.  How many, out on the fringes, are optimzed for profit, instead of safety or even comfort?
> 
>Otherwise your life support systems lack redundancy. 

----------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere. 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 11:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 10:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Taxes
Message-ID: <200208051705.KAA00273@molly.iii.com>

hal@buffnet.net writes:

>Hello Folks,
>  Just a question of sorts...
>
>In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head tax" or does it charge
>an income tax on its citizens for its Imperial Budget requirements?  In
>short, if the Imperial government taxes 10% of a Gross Planetary Product,
>then it would in essence be an income tax.  If it charges a flat 500 CR
>per person on a planet, then it is a head tax.  Which is it?

It's not clear if either one is the case.  We really have only two bits of
canon to go from:

In Striker, the implication is that the imperial military tax is simply 1/3
of the planet's total military expenditure (with another 1/3 going to the
subsector fleet, so the world only keeps 1/3 for personal forces).  This
would be some sort of production tax (and, conveniently for those who want
to keep fleet sizes down, gives most planets a reason to restrict their 
military expenditures).

Our other canonical information is the 2% imperial stake in megacorps.  If
we extend this to other interstellar corporations, it's basically a 2% 
corporate income tax.

The depiction of the strength of the Imperial government is a bit 
inconsistent in Traveller materials, but all canon requires we maintain 
is the imperial military (covered by the military tax above), the scouts,
and the starports; starports would mostly pay for themselves with fees,
and might be central points for collecting the Imperium's 2% share.  In
any case, the 2% tax on interstellar corporations is probably sufficient
to pay for most of the known remaining Imperial expenditures.

Beyond this, the Imperium probably has some right to require worlds to
provide certain classes of service, which is indirectly a tax but would be
pretty much at the discretion of the local duke.

>And I find it an interesting thought here.  If the Imperium charges say,
>3% of a planet's gross planetary product for its military taxes - this tax
>is on top of the local ruler's/government's tax.  How much in the way of
>taxes can a population take before its economy begins to stagnate?

Well, that depends on how the taxes are spent; as long as the taxes are
spent locally in an efficient manner it isn't necessarily crippling to
have very high tax rates; under some circumstances (typically infrastructure)
a government can spend money more efficiently than private industry.  The
main thing that's crippling is spending tax money on things that don't grow
the economy, such as the military, though you want to keep tax rates modest
to give people a reason to work.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 11:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 10:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Sensors - too sensitive?
Message-ID: <200208051724.KAA01911@molly.iii.com>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:

>Was just reading a news blurb about a new radio telescope at 
>Green Bank.  They had some problems with local interference, 
>namely a dog's heating pad.  The pad would intermittently 
>give off bursts of radio noise.
>
>Given the tendency to want to put sensor suites on our ships 
>that can pick out the static on a party balloon at 10 million 
>kilometers, I'm wondering if there's a real limit that won't 
>be overcome by fancy algorithms or software.  If you're on 
>the surface of the Imperial Capital, and using your short 
>range communicator, and I'm trying to find you amidst the 
>cacophony of billions of similar users in an ultramodern EM 
>noisy environment, do I really stand a chance even if I'm 
>using the sensor array on a Tigress class fun machine?

Depends on your assumptions about the capability of Traveller computers;
I suspect that a lot of the Traveller sensor arrays would have problems
with being swamped with data.  Short answer is, you can probably find the
communicator if you know where to look, but if you're doing a general scan
the Tigress' noise reduction software will probably delete said 
communication as probable noise long before any human sees it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 11:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 10:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
Message-ID: <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:

>David P. Summers wrote:
>> Missiles are very damaging.  However, they also can be intercepted.
>> The utility of missiles depends on how many missiles you have vs how
>> much point defense you foe has.
>
>Yes, I'd noticed that too.  In particular, the existing missiles and
>launchers can be greatly upgraded to achieve much better results
>against point defense for rather little cost.

Of course, point defense can be greatly upgraded with fairly little 
effort to achieve much better results against missiles, so the point
may be moot.  If nothing else, a short range countermissile capable 
of taking out an incoming missile is probably less than 10% of the 
weight and cost of the incoming missile.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 12:05:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Mon Aug  5 11:05:12 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
In-Reply-To: <200208051354.MCT02502@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020805130540.00a575f0@minn.net>

At 09:54 AM 8/5/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>Leslie Bates says
>>What about processed cheese food
>>products in the Third Imperium?)

One of my landladies (the one I based the character of Dana Wolfsburg on)
flippantly said that she thought "cheese food" was something that should be
consumed by cheese beings, and that somewhere there should be a planet of
the sentient cheeses.

>This is along the lines of "great cultural contributions by 
>the Solomani".
>
>Baseball
>Beer

Pizza!

>SPAM
>Processed cheese product(in all its various forms)
>Artificial butter flavored topping
>French fries
>Sliced bread

Chocolate Chip ice cream!

>Microwave oven
>Burrito
>"Sports" drink (including canned sweat)
>Pop music
>"Shtick" (I'm sorry, I can't see a Vilani stand-up comic)

I tried to envision a Vilani Stand up comic, he was a member of the
comedian caste who would stand on the stage and recite the numbers of each
of the jokes. This of course leads to the Terrans having a practically
unassailable advantage in the field of joke warfare. (Although some Vilani
confessed to being baffled by Monty Python's Undertaker Sketch.)


Les
==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 12:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Aug  5 11:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] dangerous children
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020730204623.00a5e300@minn.net>
References: <5hbeku4e63psd36ctqa7c96oubp4h39kg7@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <3D4EDD10.12761.2F9903@localhost>

On 30 Jul 2002, at 20:46, Leslie Bates wrote:
> In 101 Corporations, page 28:
> 
> 	"Little is known about the inner workings of the Famille', although the
> dark rumours of inbreeding with eugenic intent, rampant substance abuse,
> and child labour are so prevalent they may be at least partly true (and the
> High Energy and Starship Weapons Divisions are both led by children of
> dubious stability).

"This is getting out of hand. Now there are two of them."

"We should never have made this bargain."

(I still haven't got 101 Corps, but will in a few weeks...)

/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 12:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Scott Ayres)
Date: Mon Aug  5 11:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] 40-year olds
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D06@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <20020805182204.21845.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> wrote:
> >From: Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> >>> Why does the Army do this?  Because 40 year
> olds, as a...  [snip]

> "Unless you already have time in. If you served 4
years in the Navy(or any service) when you were
younger, you could actually join up to age 39 to have
your 20 years before 55. I was casually looking into
joining the NJ Air National Guard (because the Corps
sure as s*** isn't going to take my sorry out of shape
butt back at this age, and because I'm married, a
father, and don't feel like running around swamps
anymore). I thought I would be automatically
disqualified  after age 35, but my previous time in
counts, so I actually have some leeway should I decide
to join.  The nice thing is I woudn't have to go to
boot camp.  The not-so-nice thing is the ANG doesn't
have dress blues."


Supply & Demand.  That's all it is.  In my class for
Army helicopter school, we had a 39-yr 2LT w/ 2-yrs of
prior service (18 yrs before as an E-3): the Army
needed pilots.  Later, I saw an USAF pilot trainee w/o
a spleen: the USAF needed pilots.  FWIW, the USAF (&
ANG) do have "dress blues" as well as the Army, but
they're nowhere near as pretty as the USMC's.  IMO,
the AF blues look more like a cocktail party ensemble.

In my experience, many things are waiverable.  Not
all, but many.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 12:31:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Mon Aug  5 11:31:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Aircraft carrier displacement
In-Reply-To: <200208051705.KAA00273@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <20020805183051.18082.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>

 Would anyone here know how many displacement tons a
U.S. aircraft carrier like the "Enterprise" would be?
Needing to get a visualization in my head for an
interplanetary structure in my game. 
Any help is appreciated.
thanks.


=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 13:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Aug  5 12:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Aircraft carrier displacement
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D0D@USCHM203>

 Daniel Tackett wrote:

> Would anyone here know how many displacement tons a
>U.S. aircraft carrier like the "Enterprise" would be?
>Needing to get a visualization in my head for an
>interplanetary structure in my game. 
>Any help is appreciated.
>thanks.

About 18,000 tons

Check out Ken Pick's excellent essay on Traveller starship tonnage. It's on
the Freelance Traveller website, I believe.

Basically:

	5 tons gross ship displacement(in today's nautical terms)=1
displacement ton in Traveller.

These are approximate, and there are some fairly complicated variables, but
this is a good rule of thumb.

The essay also lists some typical ships and their Traveller tonnage:

Destroyer USS Cole (TL9): 8400 tons full-load = approx 1700 Tons Traveller 
Carrier USS Enterprise (TL7): 75000 tons std, 90000 full-load = approx.
18000 Tons Traveller 
Light Carrier HMS Invincible (TL8): 16000 tons std, 20000 full-load =
approx. 4000 Tons Traveller 
Carrier USS Nimitz (TL8-9): 80000 tons std, 92000 full-load = approx. 18000
Tons Traveller 
(Moderately-armored) 
Battlecruiser HMS Hood (TL5): 42000 tons std, 45000 full-load = approx. 7500
Tons Traveller 
Typical "Treaty Cruiser" (TL5-6): 10000 tons std, 13000 full-load = approx.
2000 Tons Traveller 
Armored Cruiser KMS Graf Spee (TL6): 12000 tons std, 16000full-load =
approx. 2600 Tons Traveller 
Battlecruiser KMS Scharnhorst (TL6): 32000 tons std, 38000 full-load =
approx. 6300 Tons Traveller 
Carrier HMS Ark Royal (TL6): 22000 tons std, 28000 full-load = approx. 4500
Tons Traveller 
Carrier USS Enterprise (TL6): 20000 tons std, 26000 full-load = approx. 4300
Tons Traveller 
(Heavily-armored) 
Battleship USS Oregon (TL4): 10000 tons std, 12000 full-load = approx. 1700
Tons Traveller 
Battleship HMS Majestic (TL4): 15000 tons std, 16000 full-load = approx.
2300 Tons Traveller 
Battleship HMS Dreadnaught (TL5): 18000 tons std, 22000 full-load = approx.
3000 Tons Traveller 
Battleship USS Arizona (TL5): 25000 tons std, 33000 full-load = approx. 5000
Tons Traveller 
Battleship KMS Bismarck (TL6): 42000 tons std, 50000 full-load = approx.
7000 Tons Traveller 
Battleship USS New Jersey (TL6): 45000 tons std, 58000 full-load = approx.
8000 Tons Traveller 
Battleship HIJMS Yamato (TL6): 60000 tons std, 72000 full-load = approx.
10000 Tons Traveller 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 13:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 12:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The cloak
Message-ID: <20020805193223.638E04510@mo120usjc.palm.net>

The favorite obsuring garment of the ages.  From knights hiding their armor & swords to Kent Allard striking terror in the hearts of evil doers...it has been part of popular fiction.

How common are they in your Traveller universe?


----------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
IHTFP - FNORD


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 13:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Mon Aug  5 12:35:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Aircraft carrier displacement
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D0D@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <20020805193342.51708.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com>

Thank you very much. This is a big help. Thank you
also for all the additional information as well.
Some surprizing numbers.






> Check out Ken Pick's excellent essay on Traveller
> starship tonnage. It's on
> the Freelance Traveller website, I believe.
> 
> Basically:
> 
> 	5 tons gross ship displacement(in today's nautical
> terms)=1
> displacement ton in Traveller.
> 
> These are approximate, and there are some fairly
> complicated variables, but
> this is a good rule of thumb.
> 
> The essay also lists some typical ships and their
> Traveller tonnage:
> 
> Destroyer USS Cole (TL9): 8400 tons full-load =
> approx 1700 Tons Traveller 
> Carrier USS Enterprise (TL7): 75000 tons std, 90000
> full-load = approx.
> 18000 Tons Traveller 
> Light Carrier HMS Invincible (TL8): 16000 tons std,
> 20000 full-load =
> approx. 4000 Tons Traveller 
> Carrier USS Nimitz (TL8-9): 80000 tons std, 92000
> full-load = approx. 18000
> Tons Traveller 
> (Moderately-armored) 
> Battlecruiser HMS Hood (TL5): 42000 tons std, 45000
> full-load = approx. 7500
> Tons Traveller 
> Typical "Treaty Cruiser" (TL5-6): 10000 tons std,
> 13000 full-load = approx.
> 2000 Tons Traveller 
> Armored Cruiser KMS Graf Spee (TL6): 12000 tons std,
> 16000full-load =
> approx. 2600 Tons Traveller 
> Battlecruiser KMS Scharnhorst (TL6): 32000 tons std,
> 38000 full-load =
> approx. 6300 Tons Traveller 
> Carrier HMS Ark Royal (TL6): 22000 tons std, 28000
> full-load = approx. 4500
> Tons Traveller 
> Carrier USS Enterprise (TL6): 20000 tons std, 26000
> full-load = approx. 4300
> Tons Traveller 
> (Heavily-armored) 
> Battleship USS Oregon (TL4): 10000 tons std, 12000
> full-load = approx. 1700
> Tons Traveller 
> Battleship HMS Majestic (TL4): 15000 tons std, 16000
> full-load = approx.
> 2300 Tons Traveller 
> Battleship HMS Dreadnaught (TL5): 18000 tons std,
> 22000 full-load = approx.
> 3000 Tons Traveller 
> Battleship USS Arizona (TL5): 25000 tons std, 33000
> full-load = approx. 5000
> Tons Traveller 
> Battleship KMS Bismarck (TL6): 42000 tons std, 50000
> full-load = approx.
> 7000 Tons Traveller 
> Battleship USS New Jersey (TL6): 45000 tons std,
> 58000 full-load = approx.
> 8000 Tons Traveller 
> Battleship HIJMS Yamato (TL6): 60000 tons std, 72000
> full-load = approx.
> 10000 Tons Traveller 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 13:46:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 12:46:14 2002
Subject: [TML] The cloak
Message-ID: <200208051944.MDF01639@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Mark Urbin" asks
>How common are they in your Traveller universe?

Fairly common.  I happen to own one in RL (dark brown) that 
is fairly short (just past the waist).

Hate to say it, though, it doesn't blend in in RL.  For that, 
in cooler weather, I have a black London Fog trenchcoat. 
Short military haircut, black suit, black trenchcoat, black 
gloves.  Non-descript four-door dark blue car (Crown Vic, 
Taurus, or Intrepid - the Muldermobile or similar).

Want to have fun?  Just go to the park where Vince Foster 
killed himself, get out of the car, and walk around.  
Especially if there are two of you - the local spring/fall 
picnic crowd will scatter like quail when they see you (the 
first time I did this, it was an accident - now it's just 
entertainment).

You won't have to say a thing, or impersonate anyone.  People 
will run.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 13:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Strain)
Date: Mon Aug  5 12:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020805020920.12005.8746.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <009601c23cba$8a780420$64a85940@dixienet.com>

I do believe a challenge has been accepted.

We have an opponent, and a GM. Do we have others?

missingjn@dixie-net.com 


-------------------------------------> From: Flykiller@aol.com
> Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 19:56:53 EDT
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>>Think you can handle that?
> Yes, I'd love to.
> 

DATA from Mr Roseberry's post:    [TML] Re: meduim navies

> 
> Initial Fleets for Lunion, Lanth, and Regina subsectors using
> "meduim navies".
> 
> Initial Fleets, Lunion subsector
> 
> Imperial Navy MCr 2,835,544.748
> 
> Wardn. MCr 55
> Smoug MCr 14700
> Adabicci MCr 322,000
> Zaibon MCr 148.75
> Spirelle MCr 312,375
> Derchon MCr 36,225
> Lunion MCr 3,080,000
> Shirine MCr 252
> Harvoset MCr 14175
> Perisephone MCr 28350
> Capon MCr 17,850
> Strouden MCr 3,465,000
> 
> This is peace time budget x10, using "meduim navies".
> Note: I'm using supp3 to start, so Wardn is independent.
> 
> Initial Fleets, Lanth subsector
> 
> Imperial Navy MCr 68668.554
> 
> Extolay MCr 40250
> Lanth MCr 220.5
> Dinom MCr 63
> Ghandi MCr 9.98
> Wypoc MCr 267.75
> Quopist MCr 1592.5
> Treece MCr 105,000
> Ivendo MCr 332.5
> Tureded MCr 178.5
> Equus MCr 66500
> Rhise MCr 31.85
> Icetina MCr 126
> Cogri MCr 1785
> Skull MCr 12600
> 
> This is peace time budget x10, using "meduim navies".
> 
> Initial Fleets, Regina subsector
> 
> Imperial Navy MCr 3,957,399.439
> 
> Efate MCr 3,220,000
> Alell MCr 241,500
> Yres MCr 13650
> Menorb MCr 603,750
> Uakye MCr 120.75
> Boughne MCr 189
> Hefry MCr 10.5
> Ruie. MCr 9,100,000
> Jenghe MCr 1365
> Regina MCr 422,625
> Feri MCr 409,500
> Roup MCr 1,260,000
> Yori MCr 23275
> Dentus MCr 157.5
> Wochiers MCr 294,000
> Yorbund MCr 35
> Moughas MCr 308
> Rethe MCr 6,300,000
> Inthe MCr 18200
> Shionthy MCr 20825
> 
> This is peace time budget x10, using "meduim navies".
> 
> Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches
> 








From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 14:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 13:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] vilis landgrab
Message-ID: <200208052005.MDF03952@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mark Urbin is handling Garda-Vilis.  However, I'm looking at 
systems that will probably be trading/communicating with 
Vilis, and I see 

Vilis       Kwon grabs this
Garda-Vilis Urbin grabs this

Choleosti
Arkadia
Stellatio
Frenzie

There seem to be plenty of TNS entries about some of these 
systems, especially during the FFW.  Let me finish Vilis, and 
I'm probably going to branch out over the other four in the 
list.  Unless someone else has done them...
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 14:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Mon Aug  5 13:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] dangerous children
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15DA@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Are you referring to Winnie?  Or is there <shudder> another Spofulam child out there that I'm unaware of?
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: Leslie Bates [mailto:lesbates@minn.net]
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 6:46 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] dangerous children


JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 30 Jul 2002 12:50:01 -0500, Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net>

>>Oh, by the way, was anyone aware that Ditzie has a twin sister? <big evil
>>grin>
>
>A twin sister?  Who survived?

In 101 Corporations, page 28:

	"Little is known about the inner workings of the Famille', although the
dark rumours of inbreeding with eugenic intent, rampant substance abuse,
and child labour are so prevalent they may be at least partly true (and the
High Energy and Starship Weapons Divisions are both led by children of
dubious stability).



==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 14:20:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Mon Aug  5 13:20:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Landgrab claim: Asmodeus/Querion
References: <3D4C1132.3C2572D6@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <001e01c23cbd$c1f77220$1700a8c0@imogen>

I'd like to claim Asmodeus/Querion.

Okay, I know I haven't finished Efate/Regina yet but I do have  a
lot written for  Efate  already  ...  so  I'll  be  posting  that
soon-ish.  Its just that I've  been  looking  for  a  good  Skaro
look-alike and I think Asmodeus would fit nicely (nuke war  ended
in 1005)!

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 14:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Mon Aug  5 13:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Aircraft carrier displacement
In-Reply-To: <20020805183051.18082.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <200208051705.KAA00273@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020805152430.00a5b340@minn.net>

Daniel Tackett <haegen2001@yahoo.com>
 wrote:
> Would anyone here know how many displacement tons a
>U.S. aircraft carrier like the "Enterprise" would be?
>Needing to get a visualization in my head for an
>interplanetary structure in my game. 
>Any help is appreciated.
>thanks.

From Jane's Pocket Book of Major Warships (1973):

U.S.S. Enterprise

75,700 Standard

89,600 Full Load

Hope this helps.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 14:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Mon Aug  5 13:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] dangerous children
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15DA@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020805152802.00a5e9f0@minn.net>

"DeGraff, Jesse" <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> wrote:

>Are you referring to Winnie?  Or is there <shudder> another Spofulam child
out there that I'm unaware of?
>Jesse

>>On Tue, 30 Jul 2002 12:50:01 -0500, Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net>
>
>>>Oh, by the way, was anyone aware that Ditzie has a twin sister? <big evil
>>>grin>

I haven't heard of Winnie.

I only made a Piperesque mention of the twin in Part Three of FiHP.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 14:30:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Aug  5 13:30:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Landgrab
In-Reply-To: <001e01c23cbd$c1f77220$1700a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <B9742E4B.68481%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

For al of you who have posted your landgrabs to the web, please check
http://spinwardmarches.com to see if you are linked.  If not, please drop m=
e
an email with the URL.

Thanks, Tod

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 14:32:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Mon Aug  5 13:32:09 2002
Subject: [TML] dangerous children
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15DB@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Winnie's in the "Famille Spofulam Winter 97" catalog .pdf available at the BITS site.  She's also been mentioned at least one other time that know of in the Type J Racing Yacht design posted to the TML by Ian.

Jesse
Haven't read Piper ;)


-----Original Message-----
From: Leslie Bates [mailto:lesbates@minn.net]
Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 1:28 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] dangerous children


"DeGraff, Jesse" <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> wrote:

>Are you referring to Winnie?  Or is there <shudder> another Spofulam child
out there that I'm unaware of?
>Jesse

>>On Tue, 30 Jul 2002 12:50:01 -0500, Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net>
>
>>>Oh, by the way, was anyone aware that Ditzie has a twin sister? <big evil
>>>grin>

I haven't heard of Winnie.

I only made a Piperesque mention of the twin in Part Three of FiHP.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
Message-ID: <200208052113.g75LD2w04199@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
>Subject: RE: [TML] Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"

  FWIW, a rider BatRon is 93+% riders to ~7% fighter
tonnage. Their role? (SMC, pps. 35-6)

  "Fighter Division: ... Fighters are used for long range
patrols and recon within a system, allows (sic) the carrier
advanced warning of enemy ... In addition, the fighters are
expected to hold the screen against enemy vessels until the
Riders are ready to begin* a battle".

  *they may not bother practicing much for the role "screen 
against enemy vessels until the surviving Riders are aboard
the tender/carrier and ready to Jump", as _those_ fighters 
will have executed their last mission :|

  Steven Hudson

...
>It is canon, Traveller has whopping big fleet carriers (not to mention the
>Tigress class BBs) which carry huge number of fighters.
>
>The imperium obviously believes they have a need for large numbers of
>fighters. AFAIK carrier squadrons are equated with cruiser squadrons (see
>Fighting Ships) and presumably carry out some of the same missions. Commerce
>raiding is possible but would you need a fleet carrier for that?
>
>So given that carrier squadrons exist if they are totally useless against
>other cruiser squadrons what would they be used for. I submit it could also
>mean that point defence systems are not as good as the navy would have us
>believe.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:23:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:23:22 2002
Subject: [TML] nuclear detonations in vaccuum
In-Reply-To: <152.119d95a9.2a7787fd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20805.135712.9K3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>  >>I'd like to see a discussion of nuclear weapons effects in a 
>  >>vaccuum.  since there's no blast then it seems to me that 
>  >>ablative or reflec for heat, and simple armor for radiation, 
>  >>should adequately deal with all but very close detonations.  
>  >>I wonder how much neutron irradiation it would take to 
>  >>embrittle a hull ....
>  >>
>  > 
>  >It's mostly "soft" x-rays.  Not thermal radiation.  You get 
>  >conversion to infrared only in an atmosphere (the nitrogen in 
>  >the air absorbs the x-rays, becoming the "fireball" and re-
>  >radiating at lower wavelengths.  During the Spartan ABM 
>  >design work, they found that x-rays couple much more 
>  >effectively with a metal bodied craft than the infrared does -
>  >the damage penetrates much deeper into the warhead.
>
> and what exactly is the nature of that damage?  did they do testing on any 
> kind of armor?  does enough radiation penetrate "regardless of armor" to 
> cause significant interior damage or personnel casualties?  when x-rays 
> couple with metal, does that mean the metal absorbs them?

The damage depends on *how much* energy is absorbed. Small amounts just
damage crystal structure a bit. Larger amounts cause heating. the
amounts from a *close* detonation deposit so much energy that the
material (metal, rock, water, air, whatever) flashes into plasma
*explosively*). 

The air absorbing x-rays and converting to a high energy plasma is what
cause the shock wave and thermal flash from a nuke inside an
atmosphere. 

Metal just absorbs more of the x-rays in a shorter distance. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:24:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:24:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
In-Reply-To: <20020730203333.87379.qmail@web20419.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20805.140900.3G8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>
>>1 5-gallon bucket, a bag of cement, some water and mixing time and a
>
>>rowboat have served wiseguys well for many decades now.
>>
>>All it requires is one East River.
>
> Weighted bodies dropped into water turn up with alarming frequency --
> alarming especially to the wiseguys who are trying to keep the body
> from being found.  We just had several turn up in a reservoir in
> California not long ago -- I guess it was last year.  This does
> remain a fair solution at all tech levels ("Og, you tie stone to foot
> of dead guy with vine.  I make raft."), but is not quite as sure as
> I'd like.  

There are a number of moderately simple ways that are "good enough"
*if* you don't expect anyone to come looking for the person. 

In that case, you can just use a bathtub, sharp knife and a meat
grinder. Flush away the evidence. Grinding up the bones is a *pain*,
but doable.

Use lots of bleach in the tub, and the toilet and try not to splash,
just in case.

If you've got an isolated area, and access to liquid nitrogen you can
produce liquid oxygen, and use that to cremate the body. 

In a pure oxygen atmosphere, even fresh meat and bone will burn quite
well. with LOX, you'll have to be careful not to cause an explosion.

Industrial strength hydrogen peroxide tends to dissolve flesh, but also
tends to explode on contact with things like blood.

Oh yeah. Time is an important factor. If there's no rush, you can do a
much better job, with far less mess.

Doh!

I wonder how well a body exposed to LN2 or LH2 would shatter when
struck? That'd be one way to reduce the body to a nice powder (or
"slush" after it thaws) for easy disposal. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:26:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:26:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
In-Reply-To: <200207311718.LTT06680@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20805.142332.0S0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> WriteFool says
>>From the standpoint of pure economic and management 
>>efficiency I would have to agree, but on the other hand by 
>>creating the traditions and institutional memory of never 
>>giving up on a case and instilling that in to each 
>>generation of policefolk, it might help foster a certain 
>>determination as well as giving some comfort to victims' 
>>families that everything can and will be done and 
>>their losses and justice will not be forgotten.
>
> I would imagine that such perseverance, or lack thereof, 
> varies from planet to planet across the Imperium.  While they 
> might do things like this on, say, Regina, who can say how 
> they run things - even at the Imperial capital.
>
> In Washington, D.C., the homicide department is in complete 
> shambles.  I sometimes wonder if the powers that be intend 
> for it to be so.  Cases are lost, forgotten, misplaced...
>
> And the coroner's office is a complete joke.  It's a sore 
> point for the residents, but nothing, I repeat, nothing has 
> been done to remedy the situation.  

Of course not. The residents can't vote. 

Or did they at least get *local* elections a while back?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:28:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:28:21 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <200208052113.g75LD2w04199@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028582658.5758.ajackson@ping>

Steven Hudson writes:
> 
>   "Fighter Division: ... Fighters are used for long range
> patrols and recon within a system, allows (sic) the carrier
> advanced warning of enemy ... In addition, the fighters are
> expected to hold the screen against enemy vessels until the
> Riders are ready to begin* a battle".

Two problems:

1)  In space, it tends to be easier to simply tack a great big sensor on the
main ship.
2)  The fighters can't hold a screen if the capital ships can just ignore the
screen and charge the carriers.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPAEBKEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPAEBKEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
Message-ID: <p04330104b974a06d3f80@[198.123.22.180]>

At 5:30 PM +0800 8/5/02, Antony Farrell wrote:
>It is canon, Traveller has whopping big fleet carriers (not to mention the
>Tigress class BBs) which carry huge number of fighters.
>
>The imperium obviously believes they have a need for large numbers of
>fighters. AFAIK carrier squadrons are equated with cruiser squadrons (see
>Fighting Ships) and presumably carry out some of the same missions. Commerce
>raiding is possible but would you need a fleet carrier for that?


Fighters are useful for point defense, but they have other uses.  One 
is tracking down smaller targets and ground support.  (Sure a meson 
gun makes a big "boom", but if you want to stop dozen or hundreds of 
little scattered ships or if you want to support troops on the 
ground, then fighters become a lot more useful).  Another is sensor 
pickets (esp if allow them to set up a sensor net to form one big 
array).  There was at least one more use I've forgotten....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805084630.018ca4e0@192.168.0.1>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804192145.024cac00@192.168.0.1> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020804192145.024cac00@192.168.0.1> <20020805191412.A25687@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020805084630.018ca4e0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020806074241.A27684@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> Kwai Ching is an interesting example.  They really have no choice
> but to produce the majority, if not all of their food.

That's true for basically *all* vacuum worlds with more than a few
million people.  As I said, Kwai Ching is *above* the median trade
level per capita.


> They are not part of an established trading federation, and their imports 
> are spotty at best due to ethically challenged merchant activity.
> (that's according to GT: Behind the Claw, and the example Tim is using.)

I'm not using BTC at all -- I'm using the trade rules in Far Trader.

Most plaets have *less* ability to trade for food.


> To produce a variety of food that would keep a large population
> happy requires a large amount of space, water and energy.

That's true regardless of whether the world has air or not.


> If you have bulk traders making a regular run through the system,
> and there is an Agricultural planet on their loop, the rockball can
> get a wide variety of foodstuffs without the large markup.

Try running the numbers to see if it works.  You might be surprised.
Don't underestimate how much it costs to ship food for a few billion
people.


> If it's not economically viable to produce 100% of the food locally,
> why should they do it?

That's the whole point -- it *is* economically viable to produce 100%
of the food locally.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1028582658.5758.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1028582658.5758.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <p04330105b974a1517539@[198.123.22.180]>

At 2:24 PM -0700 8/5/02, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Steven Hudson writes:
>>
>>    "Fighter Division: ... Fighters are used for long range
>>  patrols and recon within a system, allows (sic) the carrier
>>  advanced warning of enemy ... In addition, the fighters are
>>  expected to hold the screen against enemy vessels until the
>>  Riders are ready to begin* a battle".
>
>Two problems:
>
>1)  In space, it tends to be easier to simply tack a great big sensor on the
>main ship.

Well, that isn't in the base GT rules or in CT (or in MT, I'm not 
sure).  The proposed rules I've seen limit sensor size to ship size 
(so if you make your ship effectively bigger, then your own 
dectection is easier) but if you are going to modify the rules, then 
you should be able to allow scattered fighters to relay their data 
and set up a virtual array much bigger than any a ship can carry....

>2)  The fighters can't hold a screen if the capital ships can just ignore the
>screen and charge the carriers.


Yeah, they can serve as point defense (ie a screen against missiles)
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:56:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:56:13 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <p04330105b974a1517539@[198.123.22.180]>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028584537.113.ajackson@ping>

David P. Summers writes:

> Well, that isn't in the base GT rules or in CT (or in MT, I'm not 
> sure).

Well, neither have much in the way of larger sensors.  Still, even in GT you'll
need 25 cockpit bridges to get the sensor capabilities of one command bridge.

> Yeah, they can serve as point defense (ie a screen against missiles)

Well, true but not the normal meaning of 'screen', since that does nothing to
prevent the larger ship from getting within energy weapons range.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 15:57:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 14:57:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805090845.01831e50@192.168.0.1>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804223247.0237e008@192.168.0.1> <20020804232303.7408.33320.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <006701c23c1f$2baff600$195d8690@computer> <5.1.0.14.0.20020804223247.0237e008@192.168.0.1> <20020805202103.D25687@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020805090845.01831e50@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020806075541.B27684@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> It was determined that published trade rules didn't fit the big picture.

That may be so, but they are the official rules for the official
universe.  I agree that variant rules may give variant results.


> Large bulk traders were needed in core sectors to make it work.

They are needed under the existing rules, too.

Either way, it takes on the order of a billion dtons per year to feed
an average pop-9 world to a modern level.  That's a few million-dton
superfreighters arriving every day.  I haven't seen any canonical
sources that suggest such a level of shipping.


> I agree with you in places like the Marches, or even more frontier
> settings.

I'm basing my figures mostly on the core sectors.  If you don't like
the results, then publish your own trade rules.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
References: <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Of course, point defense can be greatly upgraded with fairly little 
> effort to achieve much better results against missiles,

It can?  When I tried, I got virtually negligible improvements.


> If nothing else, a short range countermissile capable of taking out
> an incoming missile is probably less than 10% of the weight and cost
> of the incoming missile.

You can make a countermissile a lot cheaper than the published
standard missile (yes, about 10%), but the problem is that you can
make the ship-killing missiles much cheaper and smaller as well (for
the same effectiveness).  Multiple-warhead missiles are extremely
difficult to stop in their terminal phase.

You would also have to modify the space combat rules to allow
point-defense missile fire.  Then there's the headache of missiles
with their own point defense against countermissiles :-/


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028585608.7515.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> Anthony Jackson wrote:
> > Of course, point defense can be greatly upgraded with fairly little 
> > effort to achieve much better results against missiles,
> 
> It can?  When I tried, I got virtually negligible improvements.

Sorry.  You first have to throw out the ROF modifiers in GT and use standard
GURPS rules ;)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
In-Reply-To: <3D4E5E7E.26225.7DEF71@localhost>
References: <137.122edd2d.2a7ee774@aol.com> <B972E6BF.67D85%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <3D4E5E7E.26225.7DEF71@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020806081755.D27684@freeman.little-possums.net>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> And for those who have money to burn:
> 
> TL Guidance Vol Mass AV MCr   G-Turns Warhead Hits Damage  Range Comm
> 15 Full-Ind 7   7.32 3  5.232 4/4     500ktx2 2D6  1/25-79 0     10L
[...]
> Probably way too expensive for most people, but it should ruin the day 
> of any smaller vessel that runs into a field of them.

Does this one last longer than 12 hours?  At 5 MCr a pop, it seems
like they would have to ruin a *lot* of people's days to be
worthwhile.

Not something you can just emplace by the thousands in traffic lanes
in the hope that one or two hit, and too slow to get in range if you
did.  It looks like it would only be useful in or near planetary
orbit.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:22:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:22:06 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020801093246.4c070802@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20805.143023.3i7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 04:07 PM 7/31/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>>"Glenn M. Goffin" says
>>>So, John, are you a sociopath in real life, or do you just 
>>>play one in RPGs?
>>
>>In real life, the Army saw fit to conduct a psychological 
>>evaluation, and on the commander's recommendation, I was sent 
>>to sniper school.  Later, when I became a software 
>>consultant...
>
> Hey!  They gave me a pysch eval before I was assigned to sniper school!
> Evidently, I was just sociopathic enough for their purposes...

And we love you for it. <g>

Which reminds me:

http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp08042002.html

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1028585608.7515.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1028585608.7515.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020806083856.E27684@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Sorry.  You first have to throw out the ROF modifiers in GT and use
> standard GURPS rules ;)

Ah, that makes more sense :)

Even so, have you considered the problem of loss of accuracy with
higher-RoF weapons of the same overall size?

If you allow Vehicles-designed missiles, a typical target might be a
Size -1 object closing at 300 mi/s with 12 gee maneuverability and
effective DR 600.  A missile rack would launch up to 20 of these in a
salvo.  Depending upon whether your opponent respects the Imperial
Rules of War, they may or may not have nuclear warheads.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
In-Reply-To: <20020806081755.D27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3D4E5E7E.26225.7DEF71@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D4FA627.26089.39E708@localhost>

On 6 Aug 2002 at 8:17, Timothy Little wrote:

> Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > And for those who have money to burn:
> > 
> > TL Guidance Vol Mass AV MCr   G-Turns Warhead Hits Damage  Range Comm
> > 15 Full-Ind 7   7.32 3  5.232 4/4     500ktx2 2D6  1/25-79 0     10L
> [...]
> > Probably way too expensive for most people, but it should ruin the day 
> > of any smaller vessel that runs into a field of them.
> 
> Does this one last longer than 12 hours?  At 5 MCr a pop, it seems
> like they would have to ruin a *lot* of people's days to be
> worthwhile.

No, I forgot to mention that this model can run the sensor and brain 
for 7 days.
 
> Not something you can just emplace by the thousands in traffic lanes
> in the hope that one or two hit, and too slow to get in range if you
> did.  It looks like it would only be useful in or near planetary
> orbit.

That's the real problem with mines, I guess. For more range you'd 
probably be best off just dumping lots of fully-independant missiles, 
but they won't have much endurance. The only way round this is to put a 
fusion plant in, and they're fairly big by missile standards - FF&S 
PEMS arrays use an annoying amount of power.

Perhaps a CAPTOR style sensor platform with a number of small missiles 
on board would be a workable comprimise, though it'd start getting 
expensive real quick, and it wouldn't be long before most design 
committees turned it into a small battle-station by adding point 
defence, etc. I'm sure.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:45:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:45:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Astronomy Boffin Question
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEKAIKAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020805110124.358f5e36@pop.mindspring.com>

At 10:27 PM 8/4/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>How big can a rocky asteroid be and still be irregular?

At a guess, about 100 miles diameter.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:46:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:46:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEKFEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <m3y9bndi8f.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020805112347.358f6ef0@pop.mindspring.com>

At 01:07 PM 8/4/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>This brings up an interesting point. Does it go the other way too? Most U.S.
>soldiers had a good month between the time they left CONUS and the time they
>hit the lines in Europe, even during the most active time of the war. Today
>soldiers in Georgia can be in a war zone in less than 48 hours. Does this
>also contribute to PTSD? How does it effect their combat readiness.

It leads to more stateside training and readiness drills.  I took part in
REFORGER 85 (REdeployment of FORces to GERmany, and exercise where troops
were airlifted to depots in Europe where vehicles and heavy gear were
waiting for us.. all we brought along was personal kit.)  In preparation
for this, we spent a great deal of time going over things like loading
drills, NBC warfare, squad tactics and the like.  There was no assumption
that we'd have time to train before entering combat.

>ObTrav: This would not be a problem for interstellar troops, since minimum
>travel time is a week. Maximum travel time could be much higher. (Which is
>why I especially have a problem with GT designs which use bunkrooms.) Could
>a really large troop transport incorporate a habitat module to use as a
>training area? It strikes me that a holoventure module might work really
>well for battledress units and vehicle drivers (tank, fighter, etc.) but
>that regular troops will need more room to practice small unit tactics,
>unless the holoventure studios work as good as ST holodecks.

The designs in Ground Forces include firing ranges and other small training
areas, but as you say, the troops could be in cramped quarters for a good
time.  Which could be an invitation for more adventures.  This was partly
inspired by a Bill Maudlin cartoon showing troops in bunks stacked four
high with no room to breath, and the First Sergeant standing there saying
"Look, th' schedule calls for calisthenics, so we're gonna start with the
left eyebrow..."

Here's a fun game to play if you have Ground Forces.  You are a Force
Lieutenant assigned to a Caen-class ship.  You are lying in your bunk, and
feeling a bit peckish.  How do you get to the officer's mess?  :)
-- 

Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.
gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html

Author of GT: Ground Forces                               

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:47:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:47:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <008901c23c6c$e2004c00$be09bd50@martinjd>
References: <20020804173620.8351.57196.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <006901c23c1f$2dd85440$195d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020805114848.35e72ae8@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:42 AM 8/5/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>>
>> Hmm. I've always wanted to run an Arbellatra vs Gustus game. Maybe I
>should
>> actually do it.
>
>You should. Then I can play

Dibs Arbellatra.  One of my favorite people in Traveller history.  Someday
I'd love to write a sourcebook for the Arbellatra Regency.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:49:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:49:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Something to think about...
In-Reply-To: <138.1260f901.2a7f16a9@cs.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020805115125.30d74ca4@pop.mindspring.com>

At 07:45 PM 8/4/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>Speaking of which, does anyone know where I might find a good-condition copy 
>of FTL:2448? I've looked all over the place, both online and in RL and I've 
>never been able to find anything. I've got everything else TriTac's put out 
>and I'm wanting to complete my collection.

Try putting a "wanted" message up on rec.games.frp.marketplace
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 16:50:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Mon Aug  5 15:50:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Warghame ----> Nightmare?
In-Reply-To: <194.af51b03.2a7f3c97@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020805114147.35df3ff4@pop.mindspring.com>

At 10:27 PM 8/4/2002 EDT, you wrote:
>>But seriously, the comm delay and limited intelligence turned a wargame into
>>a nightmare.
>
>Commo delays and limited intelligence are half the fun of a decent wargame. 
>I love large, multiplayer exercises -- the umpires don't have to insert the 
>"fog of war" because the players provide it themselves!

This is why part of the SALUTE intelligence report is "unit." Keeping track
of who is where is vital.  During our massive 5FW game, I was only sure of
the psotion and status of 1st Assault Fleet, which I was personnaly
commanding.  I had no idea if my other fleets were reaching their
objectives, dead, or exceeding their mission orders.  It turns out that one
of my fleets had encountered the Imperial 212th and 100th fleets and been
mauled, but the enocunter led to the Imperial side believing that the
Jewell attack was a feint, and that my main goal was Rhylanor.  Gave me a
few extra months.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
Message-ID: <200208052309.g75N9Gw20035@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
...
>>   "Fighter Division: ... Fighters are used for long range
>> patrols and recon within a system, allows (sic) the carrier
>> advanced warning of enemy ... In addition, the fighters are
>> expected to hold the screen against enemy vessels until the
>> Riders are ready to begin* a battle".
>
>Two problems:
>1)  In space, it tends to be easier to simply tack a great big sensor on the
>main ship.
>2)  The fighters can't hold a screen if the capital ships can just ignore the
>screen and charge the carriers.
  
  Understood; in both cases it's the limitation of the rules system
at work. OTOH, point one could be addressed by making the fighters
into serious endurance / high speed platforms for sustained in-
system ops, but that's getting them into gunship tonnages, and you
might as well make them Jump capable for survivability.

  As MJD indicated recently, point two can only be addressed fully
in a hex-based Trav navals game.

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:11:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:11:32 2002
Subject: [TML] The cloak
Message-ID: <memo.630916@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <200208051944.MDF01639@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
John T. Kwonjtkwon@jtkgroup.comJohn T. KwonIn article 
<200208051944.MDF01639@vmms1.verisignmail.com>, jtkwon@jtkgroup.com (John 
T. Kwon) wrote:

> "Mark Urbin" asks
> >How common are they in your Traveller universe?
> 
> Fairly common.  I happen to own one in RL (dark brown) that 
> is fairly short (just past the waist).
> 
> Hate to say it, though, it doesn't blend in in RL.  

I too wear a cloak - nice big warm brown floor-length one. It's an Arab 
desert cloak I picked up in Tunisia, actually. It is so warm I have been 
outside at 0500 in March, frost & snow on the ground, and the only cold 
bit was my nose...

But I've always been fond of cloaks, and that's only the latest in a 
succession... the first one was purchased when I was about 12.

Once walked across the local town square and heard someone laughing. 
Looked round, a fellow was pointing... but as he had a full Mohican, dyed 
pale blue, I'm not quite sure why he wanted to laugh at someone else's 
choice of attire :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.

(Oh yes, and it used to spook the army - I took one of my big cloaks out 
in the field, rather than bedroll & basha.)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020805114848.35e72ae8@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <008901c23c6c$e2004c00$be09bd50@martinjd>
 <20020804173620.8351.57196.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <006901c23c1f$2dd85440$195d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020805181643.00a65470@minn.net>

At 11:48 AM 8/5/2002, Mr. Penguin Fancier wrote:
>At 11:42 AM 8/5/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>>>
>>> Hmm. I've always wanted to run an Arbellatra vs Gustus game. Maybe I
>>should
>>> actually do it.
>>
>>You should. Then I can play
>
>Dibs Arbellatra.  One of my favorite people in Traveller history.  Someday
>I'd love to write a sourcebook for the Arbellatra Regency.

I'll buy one.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1028584537.113.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1028584537.113.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <p04330106b974b83fd6de@[198.123.22.180]>

At 2:55 PM -0700 8/5/02, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>David P. Summers writes:
>
>>  Well, that isn't in the base GT rules or in CT (or in MT, I'm not
>>  sure).
>
>Well, neither have much in the way of larger sensors.  Still, even 
>in GT you'll
>need 25 cockpit bridges to get the sensor capabilities of one command bridge.

I'm not sure how you are adding these....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:26:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:26:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
References: <20805.140900.3G8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3D4F094F.3020905@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> I wonder how well a body exposed to LN2 or LH2 would shatter when
> struck? That'd be one way to reduce the body to a nice powder (or
> "slush" after it thaws) for easy disposal. 

Probably pretty well.

We used to do that with, erm, various rodentia parts; if you're looking 
for DNA adducts you have to keep 'em cold or they degrade.

I hated doing it though, grinding stuff in LN2 in a ceramic mortar and 
pestle makes this *awful* fingernails-on-chalkboard noises.

Take a LOT of LN2, though.

An industrial meat grinder would do far better and quicker.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
Message-ID: <OFF3DF5114.9F0FA072-ONCA256C0C.0080B0D9@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Mark asked:
>What is the TL of  the Imperium & the Terran Confederation in the Year 
1000 
>setting of T20?

15. The answer is always 15.

;-)  ;-)

(It's Twoday, and the jokes aren't getting any better. It's gonna be a 
l-o-n-g week...)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:31:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:31:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Low-tech naval forces
Message-ID: <200208052330.MDN00014@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Working on the Vilis landgrab, and it occurred to me that 
Vilis would be the source of a lot of the subsector navy - 
the Imperial Navy keeps its ships at Frenzie, the subsector 
capital, but Vilis has a lot more resources - it probably 
supplies a lot of the subsector navy.  The only drawback is 
its low tech level.

It is possible to build something that would satisfy what I 
see as the probable needs of a backwater subsector - if you 
assume that the Imperial Navy is more concerned with the 
Federation of Arden and the Zhodani threat (not to mention 
the occasional Sword World problem).

The major reason that Vilis and Frenzie, and the worlds 
nearby, would welcome Imperial forces is that it allows the 
consolidation of their own local area.  The Imperials get a 
forward base of operations and a ready supply of bodies to 
volunteer for service (billions and billions).

That leaves the local forces to conduct local show the flag 
ops, space control over a small set of systems along a Jump-1 
route from Vilis to Frenzie, and anti-piracy patrol.  Even a 
TL 9 ship should be able to conduct basic anti-piracy patrol 
against the typical "ethically challenged" merchant.

These forces would not last in a stand-up battle against 
major forces such as the Zhodani, but they could exist in 
large enough numbers to make piracy a difficult proposition.

Just working on a small carrier (9000 ton) with 200 fighters, 
and a few small escorts for work around the systems near 
Vilis and Frenzie.  Quite a change from massive TL15 ships 
sporting T meson guns.
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
Message-ID: <OF2F3C29E3.8D5E3297-ONCA256C0C.0081279C@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Martin replied:
>>What is the TL of  the Imperium & the Terran Confederation in the
>>Year 1000 setting of T20?
>
>The Impeirum is TL 14 mostly, with Tl 15 just creeping in over the last 
few
>years.

OK, this one's got me puzzled, I'll give a serious reply now.

By the time 1105 rocks around, the Imperium averages out at TL 13 (MT's 
"Average Stellar"), with many TL 14 and quite a few TL 15's ("High 
Stellar").

Given that, I would have thought that in 1100 the Imperium would be at TL 
_13_, with "TL 14 just creeping in"?

What TL is the original AHL (built c.1005)? I thought it was built using 
the best tech at the time, and thus fitted out at TL 14 (with j-5 
drives)??
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
In-Reply-To: <OF2F3C29E3.8D5E3297-ONCA256C0C.0081279C@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <3D4FB7E8.30830.7F429A@localhost>

On 6 Aug 2002 at 9:38, david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:

> Dear Folks -
> 
> Martin replied:
> >>What is the TL of  the Imperium & the Terran Confederation in the
> >>Year 1000 setting of T20?
> >
> >The Impeirum is TL 14 mostly, with Tl 15 just creeping in over the last 
> few
> >years.
> 
> OK, this one's got me puzzled, I'll give a serious reply now.
> 
> By the time 1105 rocks around, the Imperium averages out at TL 13 (MT's 
> "Average Stellar"), with many TL 14 and quite a few TL 15's ("High 
> Stellar").
> 
> Given that, I would have thought that in 1100 the Imperium would be at TL 
> _13_, with "TL 14 just creeping in"?
> 
> What TL is the original AHL (built c.1005)? I thought it was built using 
> the best tech at the time, and thus fitted out at TL 14 (with j-5 
> drives)??

IIRC the Imperial peak TL just nudged over into TL15 during the Rim 
War, which ended in 1009 (I think).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:57:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:57:04 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>

Hi Tim,
   For what it is worth, I started to respond to this thread earlier before 
I had to go to bed and get some sleep...

If you could, so I can check your reasoning:

List all of the modifiers to gunner's skill you are using in a 
missile/antimissile engagement.

Example:

Skill 12 laser gunner
Accuracy 32 Laser platform
Gunnery +6 to hit program

Range penalty -39
ROF bonus +10
Point Defense phase bonus +10
Active Sensor lock +2

Total modifiers:
12+ 32 + 6 + 10 + 10 + 2 - 39 = 72-39 = 32

Rolling an average of 10 on 3d6 means that you will have succeeded by 
22.  Number of missiles successfully engaged in that round will be equal to 
round((22-3)/2,0) or 19/2 rounded up or 10.

Please note that second edition rules for TRAVELLER have bumped up the ROF 
bonus from their current levels to current levels +3.  Also note that 
instead of rolling for each missile being engaged by point defense, you 
roll only once for the entire "turn".  Thus, in the example given above, 
the gunner with skill 12 is engaging a group of incoming missiles *will* 
engage the incoming group and nail 10 missiles.  If less than 10 are 
inbound, that single gunner stops it cold.  If more than 10 are inbound, he 
stops 10 and the rest hit.

                               Hal


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 17:58:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 16:58:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
In-Reply-To: <20020805125303.24699.70318.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020805125303.24699.70318.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <j14uku0gpb04hc31qnlhbjes50l610n0t8@4ax.com>

On Mon, 05 Aug 2002 05:53:03 -0700, john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:

>----- Original Message -----
>From: Hunter Gordon <trav@RPGRealms.com>
>Date: Sunday, August 4, 2002 11:45 am
>Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)

 
>> On 8/4/2002 at 4:21 PM Antony Farrell wrote:
 
>> >Was that spam and eggs
>> >or spam, spam egs and spam?
 
>> Ok gotta keep it on topic!
 
>> Pardons if this has actually been covered previously.
 
>> So does SPAM survive the Rule of Man, the Long Night and into the 
>> Third Imperium? If so, is it just a Solomani thing, or have the 
>> Vilani and others come to enjoy this uniquely Terran... ummm .... 
>> stuff? I'm just picturing a group of adventurers finding an old 
>> Rule of Man cache, stockpiled with cans of good old SPAM!

>Ah, you should have saved that question for a Newbie Essay [tm]! ;-)

>Actually, it's quite plausible that SPAM was a significant factor in the 
>Solomanification of former Vilani worlds.  To wit:

>1.  SPAM would likely be included in relief aid to former Vilani worlds 
>ravaged by Terran-introduced pandemics.
>2.  Given that SPAM does not require processing by shugiili, and that 
>SPAM has a relatively long shelf life ("long" in a geological sense, 
>that is), it would go far in breaking the power of the shugiili in 
>Vilani society.
>3.  Add to these factors the relative conservatism of Vilani culture and 
>you find that, once SPAM was introduced on former Vilani-ruled worlds, 
>it tended to remain a staple of the diet on those worlds, thus ensuring 
>that SPAM would continue to be consumed (if not necessarily enjoyed) up 
>into M:1100.
>4.  Until such time as the fine folks at Hormel licensed the production 
>of SPAM on worlds other than Earth, the Terrans would be the only source 
>of this staple, thus economically binding the former Vilani worlds 
>closer to Terra.  Even after SPAM production began on worlds other than 
>Earth, genuine Terran SPAM was held to be superior, commanding premium 
>prices.  This coopted Sharushiid into the ruling SPAM consortium.
>5.  We can thus also see that the Solomani Rim War, with its focus on 
>the capture of Terra, was driven by the desire to control the original 
>point source of SPAM.

>QED. ;-)

>Hmmm.  Perhaps I should write up Hormel Foods as a megacorp using the 
>Universal Corporate Profile from _101 Corporations_....

Do it!

You might want to consider redacting this thread and sending it to Hormel
for giggles - who knows; if they research it, we might gain a couple of new
fans! :)

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:06:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:06:05 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020806083856.E27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028592330.6838.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> Anthony Jackson wrote:
> > Sorry.  You first have to throw out the ROF modifiers in GT and use
> > standard GURPS rules ;)
> 
> Ah, that makes more sense :)
> 
> Even so, have you considered the problem of loss of accuracy with
> higher-RoF weapons of the same overall size?
> 
> If you allow Vehicles-designed missiles, a typical target might be a
> Size -1 object closing at 300 mi/s with 12 gee maneuverability and
> effective DR 600.  A missile rack would launch up to 20 of these in a
> salvo.  Depending upon whether your opponent respects the Imperial
> Rules of War, they may or may not have nuclear warheads.

Ok, that's reasonable.  Now, let's look at a point defense system:

36 megajoule x-ray laser, ROF 8*, compact.  2.0 T, 80 cf, $280k.  Range 7,700
miles, Acc 29
Full stabilization: 0.2T, 8 cf, $40k
9 x rE cell, good for 50 shots: 0.09T, $90k
Dedicated Macroframe: 0.25T, $50k, complexity 11
Targeting +12: $512k (but probably gets a bulk discoute)
Assume gunner skill is 14.  Total effective skill, if aiming for 4 seconds
before firing a burst, is 43 (and a miss by 1 hits, so call it 44).  Note that
there are several different calculations of Acc in space combat (Vehicles and
Space 3e both have different systems), all of which disagree; with the Vehicles
system beam weapons in space have no Acc cap, effective skill would be 55, and
hitting is no challenge.  That's probably the most realistic one, too).

The missile is being fired at one second before impact (300 mile range, +300
miles for velocity, we'll ignore this making no sense) and the range penalty is
34, -1 for size, so chance of hitting once is 9.  We can fire two bursts easily
enough; in fact, if we start firing a bit sooner we'll also get two rolls at 8-
and 4 rolls at 7-, which means the chance of leaking through is around 10%. 
Obviously, using the Vehicles acc rule, the hit roll is 20 or less, and we
might as well drop to single shot with 1 turn of aiming, which means 20 seconds
before impact (effective range 6600) there's still a 50% chance of hitting, and
your single launcher kills an average 8 missiles before impact.

Hm...that's actually worse than I realized.  Oh well, if they send a really big
swarm of missiles at you simply dump a canister round in front of them.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:07:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:07:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805085604.018d7340@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAELOEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>It is canon, Traveller has whopping big fleet carriers (not to mention the
>Tigress class BBs) which carry huge number of fighters.
>
>The imperium obviously believes they have a need for large numbers of
>fighters. AFAIK carrier squadrons are equated with cruiser squadrons (see
>Fighting Ships) and presumably carry out some of the same missions.
Commerce
>raiding is possible but would you need a fleet carrier for that?

How about fighters are best for use against other fighters? If you are using
fighter for a multitude of missions, planetary support, SDB hunting, as
widely dispersed sensor pickets, etc. then maybe fighters are the best
weapon system to take out these other fighters.

Also while point defense may be very good against missiles I would expect a
fighter to have defenses of its own. For example mini-sand casters which
fire a small enough amount of sand to protect a fighter. Short range
missiles that can be used against missiles or rail guns (VRFGGs), which
might be effective against missiles. All of these weapons would be mere
fractions of a dton in size (If you use GURPS install them as modular grav
system components. They should be small enough to fit in wasted space in the
ship.) Use standard GURPS vehicle combat rules rather than space combat
rules for active defense by the fighter. This gives fighters an edge over
missiles against point defense, which would be a good reason why they are
still used.

If this is true then the best weapon against a fighter might very well be
another fighter. Use the space combat rules for long distance combat, but if
the fighters enter the same hex switch to short range weapons:

"He's too close for the main laser, Switching to guns!"

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:09:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:09:15 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
Message-ID: <OFF9549605.CA2D48D8-ONCA256C0C.008210E4@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Tim said:
>> You want to know what the results are of a 50 lb rock tossed via a
>> Trebuchet against a Far Trader's hull?  GURPS VEHICLES has rules for
>> it.
>
>Yes, this sort of very wide scope is what I like best about GURPS in
>general.  Given Traveller's range of planetary tech levels, this might
>easily come up in a game!

Have I got a deal for you! Follow the links at Beowulf Down to find 
low-tech weaponry! Go to Repair Bays ==> House Rules ==> Weapons Tables 
==> Archaic Missile Weapons ==> Torsion Projectile Weapons. All stats 
written for MT.

Oh, rats. No trebuchet. You'll have to make do with a catapult for now. 
Pen 7 out to 1 km, doing 5D damage. A Free Trader has AC 40 (HG "0" 
armour), so it will only scratch the paint, unless you hit a window (cloth 
AC 5, unless you prefer AC = TL = 8 for the trader). Important safety tip: 
Don't Forget To Close The Window Shutters. In return, my single "pathetic" 
TL 8 pulse laser (Weapons Tables ==> Starship Weapons) has Pen 79 out to 
50 km, doing 75D damage(**). Ouch! Hey, catapults burn really well, don't 
they? What fool made them out of WOOD??

Now where did I stash my old set of siege weapons - under the bed? Dig out 
that trebuchet and set it up, we'll want to fire some rocks at that old 
Beowulf I use as a towed target... ooh, nice hit! OK, I'll have to try 
translate the results into some more stats for you. ;-)

**Bill Hostman and the MT Players' Handbook will disagree with me here, 
saying the damage really should be _750_ dice. Yes, DICE, not hit points. 
However, I think that's really just a bit of overkill. Really. ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:10:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:10:46 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Landgrab of Vilis
Message-ID: <20020806000823.69621.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>

>If I'm doing Vilis, I think I had better do Garda-Vilis, 
>unless someone has already done that one.

That's Tanoose to you, apologist scum!

This message has been brought to you by the Tanoose Freedom League.

*********************************************
The sender of this message takes no responsibility for its content. 
The views expressed in this message are not necessarily the views of
the sender.  The sender has sent this message only as an
accomodation.

--Glenn

P.S.  You have Adventure 5 (I think): Broadsword, don't you?  

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:12:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:12:16 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <p04330106b974b83fd6de@[198.123.22.180]>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028592626.5758.ajackson@ping>

David P. Summers writes:
> 
> I'm not sure how you are adding these....

Cockpit bridge: nominal sensor range (PESA) 20,000
Command bridge: nominal sensor range (PESA) 100,000
Area covered by a given sensor: proportional to square of range.
Note that since, in space, stealth in GT is twice as effective as emissions
cloaking, there's really no point to useing the AESA, the PESA is almost always
more effective.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] vilis landgrab
References: <20020805215729.6122.21835.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <004401c23cde$cd707220$eeb18b90@computer>

> From: "John T. Kwon"
> Mark Urbin is handling Garda-Vilis.  However, I'm looking at
> systems that will probably be trading/communicating with
> Vilis, and I see
>
> Vilis       Kwon grabs this
> Garda-Vilis Urbin grabs this

I was considering doing a landgrab of Vilis a couple of months back. I got
as far as doing the "literature review" before getting bored.

The main thing that struck me was that Vilis, and Garda-Vilis, were settled
_before_ the establishment of the Imperium. In the case of Garda-Vilis, we
know that it was settled by Sword Worlders, and it seems likely that Vilis
was too.

There are also inconsistencies in the sources! One source gives much later
dates for settlement of the worlds. I was thinking that this might indicate
a secondary wave of immigration.

My suggestion would be to talk up the Sword Worldishness of these worlds.
There is absolutely no reason why culturally Sword Worlder worlds couldn't
exist within the Imperium, and it would give a rather clear flavour to the
societies.

I also had some thoughts about the factions of the Ine Givar that were
present, and their relationships with each other, the Tanoose Freedom
League, and Solomani supremicist groups, but I will spare you those.

Oh. One interesting thing is that Vilis isn't the capital of Vilis
subsector, while being the "capital" of a multi-world polity. Is there a
"Count of Vilis", as well as a "Duke of Vilis"?

You are welcome to either use or ignore any of these silly ideas.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <B9732F75.68182%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000001c23cde$c8128b60$6501a8c0@Darla>

While there is probably no way to completely mitigate the horrific
effects of war on the human psyche, I do presume that the Imperium will
use more advanced psychological techniques then now available for the
selection and retention of people in combat units.  I also assume that
the current degree of superstition and stigma associated with getting
mental health treatment will be a thing of the past in the 57th century
--  to the point where a combat veteran receiving treatment for PTSD (or
whatever we are calling it) before discharge will be no more remarkable
than getting medical treatment for physical wounds.

This would also mean that retirements or reassignments due to mental
health reasons would be as common as those due to injuries.  Presumably
combat vets would be offered the opportunity to re-muster into a support
unit, but some might refuse that..."Yeah, got a downcheck from the
Medical Officer when we debriefed from that job on Kinorb.  They offered
me a transfer to Logistics Command, but f**k that - I'm a soldier, not a
civilian wearing a uniform.  So, I took my walking papers and opened up
this place...what can I get for ya?"

In game terms, all this gets rolled up in the survival throw during
character generation.  IMTU, failing a survival throw by 4 or more kills
the character.  Failing by 3 or less represents anything that prevents
the character from continuing in that career.

TWB


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:19:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:19:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Taxes
In-Reply-To: <m33ctujfxj.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <000801c23cde$c9cdcff0$6501a8c0@Darla>

> >
> > IMTU the Imperium gets at 10% tariff on the value of all goods
> > shipped interstellar, plus 10% of the fares charged for interstellar
> > passage.  The Imperium does not levy any direct taxes on
> > individuals.
> 
> Those rates would make it _very_ difficult to make a profit as a free
> trader...
> 

That is true...but for MTU I wanted a Free Trader to be economically
marginal, and probably not practical unless you get an old (i.e. cheap)
ship and/or do some speculative trade on the side.  

TWB


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: 5 Aug 2002 - Freelance Traveller NOT Updated :(
Message-ID: <20020806002701.39745.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Freelance Traveller <editor@freelancetraveller.com>

>Due to an unexpected confluence of factors, mostly involving the 
>effect of weather on human activities (we lost power Friday evening
>when a tree took down some wires down the block during the storm,
>and I spent most of Saturday recovering from a fifteen-hour outage),


Yes, the weather here in Northern California has been quite
atrocious, too.  It was partly cloudy for nearly a week, and the
temperatures stayed below 70F almost all day.  I don't know how we
survived it.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:29:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:29:31 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
Message-ID: <OF83374F94.00E76973-ONCA256C0D.00020AC8@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

John wrote:
>> So does SPAM survive the Rule of Man, the Long Night and into the 
>> Third Imperium?
>
>Ah, you should have saved that question for a Newbie Essay [tm]! ;-)
>
>Actually, it's quite plausible that SPAM was a significant factor in the 
>Solomanification of former Vilani worlds.  To wit:

Brilliant exposition of the balance-of-power conferred to the Terrans by 
their all-conquering secret weapon, Spam! Keyboard kill! <applauds>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:31:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:31:12 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Large Scale Games, One Traveller, one WW3[Long]
Message-ID: <20020806003053.77072.qmail@web20414.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Shadowcat" <res053z0@gten.net>

>The second game was a traveller game at a previous Winter Wars 
>a couple of years after the historic Shadows tournament, which 
>was called Diplomatic Mission. This was a 6 hour game with 24 
>players that dealt with the reopening of trade to a redzoned world.
[deletion]
>This game lasted 6 very hectic hours, and had a grand total of 2 die

[deletion]
>I have seriously considered reconstructing the aspects of this 
>game for another convention, or even as an IRC game, but there 
>are too many problems for it to work as an IRC game.

It would make a great convention game, however.

--Glenn



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller
Message-ID: <20020806003342.77711.qmail@web20414.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net>
>
>(Across cyberspace, someone asks himself: What about processed
>cheese food products in the Third Imperium?)

They are a staple of starship life, for which the Vilani are
eternally grateful to the Solomani.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:41:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:41:15 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <20020806004033.73952.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>

>I've read a pretty persuasive argument by Charles Pellegrino 
>that outlines every reason why we should, even in the absence 
>of direct contact, assume that a starfaring species, a 
>species capable of manipulating the energies necessary to 
>span stellar distances, is a direct apocalyptic threat to our 
>existence, and that other species must make this same 

[deletion]

>Humans have a built-in cultural inhibition against 
>intraspecies murder - or else murder would be more common.  
>But make it an alien species, and we won't have that 
>inhibition by nature.  Any inhibition we have will come from 
>intellect and not instinct.  And any restraint we have will 
>be easy, perilously easy, to lose.  It will be difficult not 
>to fear them by instinct.

It's clearly part of Grandfather's purpose for humans that he
scattered us among the stars and encouraged the development of the
jump drive among the three major races at about the same time.  That
way, our first discoveries of other starfaring races would be of
other humans, and we would be somewhat less likely to try to
annihilate one another at once.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] vilis landgrab
Message-ID: <200208060043.MDP00769@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Alan Bradley" asks
>The main thing that struck me was that Vilis, and Garda-
>Vilis, were settled _before_ the establishment of the 
>Imperium. In the case of Garda-Vilis, we know that it was 
>settled by Sword Worlders, and it seems likely that Vilis
>was too.

Indeed.

>There are also inconsistencies in the sources! One source 
>gives much later dates for settlement of the worlds. I was 
>thinking that this might indicate a secondary wave of 
>immigration.

There's nothing wrong with multiple waves of settlement.

>My suggestion would be to talk up the Sword Worldishness of 
>these worlds.

I had the idea that they were Sword Worlders, but that the 
families that settled Vilis and Garda-Vilis left the 
homeworld completely - for reasons that remain speculative.  
But I would intimate that there is either a sense of being 
cast out or a sense of abandonment, depending on who tells 
the story.  The reasons that the settlers left may give some 
distinct difference between their culture and the one that 
was left behind.

>There is absolutely no reason why culturally Sword Worlder 
>worlds couldn't exist within the Imperium, and it would give 
>a rather clear flavour to the societies.
>

>I also had some thoughts about the factions of the Ine Givar 
>that were present, and their relationships with each other, 
>the Tanoose Freedom League, and Solomani supremicist groups, 
>but I will spare you those.
>

No, tell me more.

>Oh. One interesting thing is that Vilis isn't the capital of 
>Vilis subsector, while being the "capital" of a multi-world 
>polity. Is there a "Count of Vilis", as well as a "Duke of 
>Vilis"?
>

I have one obscure reference to a Duke of Vilis.  I think 
that Frenzie is the subsector capital because the Imperial 
Naval Base is there - the population there serves mainly as 
the service population for the naval base and yards.  And the 
Naval Base is there because it's a better strategic position 
than Vilis.  I would, however, believe that a lot of the 
local politics (less than the subsector, but entailing the 
little cluster within Jump-1) are dominated by Vilis.

________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020806000604.2646.31858.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <006201c23ce3$2b1f27a0$eeb18b90@computer>

> From: "Douglas E. Berry"
> Dibs Arbellatra.  One of my favorite people in Traveller history.

Unfortunately, if it were to happen, I would have to randomly assign people
to particular positions, and keep them anonymous, in order to ensure that
all communications passed through my hands.

I was thinking about how many players would be needed last night. 7 would be
minimum, 11 would be optimal, more would be too hard to manage.

It would also be a huge amount of work for me to do.

> Someday I'd love to write a sourcebook for the Arbellatra Regency.

And I'd love to read it!

I've done quite a bit of work on the Civil War period, but the problem I
kept running into was: why play in this period rather than in the 1100s? The
problem is that essentially, it's still the Imperium, with all the familiar
structures in place, with only rather modest changes.

It will be interesting to see how the T20 writers deal with this.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com






From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:48:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:48:28 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
Message-ID: <006301c23ce3$2bcea180$eeb18b90@computer>

> From: "Rupert Boleyn"
> IIRC the Imperial peak TL just nudged over into TL15 during the Rim
> War, which ended in 1009 (I think).

I would take TL 15 as being the equivalent of TL 16 in Milieu 1100:
something rather rare and wonderful.

TL 14 would be the equivalent of TL 15 - the TL of most modern military
gear. Depending on how long TL 14 had been around, a fair bit of older stuff
might be TL 14 too.

The counter mix from Invasion Earth might be worth studying. Images of it
may be available on the Far Futures website.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:51:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Barnett-Lewis)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:51:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra (was Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
References: <20020806000604.2646.31858.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D4F1C5A.95CD40DE@mailbag.com>

> At 11:48 AM 8/5/2002, Mr. Penguin Fancier wrote:
> >At 11:42 AM 8/5/2002 +0100, you wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hmm. I've always wanted to run an Arbellatra vs Gustus game. Maybe I
> >>should
> >>> actually do it.
> >>
> >>You should. Then I can play
> >
> >Dibs Arbellatra.  One of my favorite people in Traveller history.  Someday
> >I'd love to write a sourcebook for the Arbellatra Regency.
> 
> I'll buy one.

Doug's writing? I'll buy a dozen and give them all away. I can't think
of a better way to hook newbies into Traveller than the 3ICW as done by
him. That era gives everything anyone could want in a milleau. 

 
> Les


So when does it show on BITS/SJG/T20 new releases schedule? :'p I need
to pay for yet another partial cup of coffee!

William
-- 
You better watch out   What you wish for;
It better be worth it  So much to die for.
		       Courtney Love

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:52:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:52:19 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  The cloak
Message-ID: <20020806004801.59831.qmail@web20422.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Mark Urbin" <urbin@bigfoot.com>

>The favorite obsuring garment of the ages.  From knights hiding
>their armor & swords to Kent Allard striking terror in the hearts of
>evil doers...it has been part of popular fiction.
>
>How common are they in your Traveller universe?

ca. 1100s, they are in fashion at the Imperial court, and therefore
commonly worn by nobles everywhere.  Commoners only wear them when
the weather demands it.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 18:54:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Mon Aug  5 17:54:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Astronomy Boffin Question
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020805110124.358f5e36@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0208060246490.363897-100000@svati>

On Mon, 5 Aug 2002, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

>At 10:27 PM 8/4/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>>How big can a rocky asteroid be and still be irregular?
>
>At a guess, about 100 miles diameter.

Actually, it is almost a factor of ten bigger. Both 1 Ceres
and 2 Pallas are slightly irregular at 960 x 932km and
570 x 525 x 482km respectively. 1000km is a fairly accurat upper
limit.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020805112347.358f6ef0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNGEMBEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>ObTrav: This would not be a problem for interstellar troops, since minimum
>>travel time is a week. Maximum travel time could be much higher. (Which is
>>why I especially have a problem with GT designs which use bunkrooms.)
Could
>>a really large troop transport incorporate a habitat module to use as a
>>training area? It strikes me that a holoventure module might work really
>>well for battledress units and vehicle drivers (tank, fighter, etc.) but
>>that regular troops will need more room to practice small unit tactics,
>>unless the holoventure studios work as good as ST holodecks.
>
>The designs in Ground Forces include firing ranges and other small training
>areas, but as you say, the troops could be in cramped quarters for a good
>time.  Which could be an invitation for more adventures.  This was partly
>inspired by a Bill Maudlin cartoon showing troops in bunks stacked four
>high with no room to breath, and the First Sergeant standing there saying
>"Look, th' schedule calls for calisthenics, so we're gonna start with the
>left eyebrow..."
>
>Here's a fun game to play if you have Ground Forces.  You are a Force
>Lieutenant assigned to a Caen-class ship.  You are lying in your bunk, and
>feeling a bit peckish.  How do you get to the officer's mess?  :)
>--
>
>Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.

Let me start by saying I absolutely love 95% of Ground Forces. I think the
colors great. I like everything from the unit structure information, to the
battledress designs, to the modular grav design system.

The one thing I can't stand is the ship designs. I loath the Caen. Among
other problems: Where are the navy ratings bunked? They certainly wouldn't
be with the Marines, not since the rest of canon says that they should be
living in staterooms, which I would suppose are separate from the officer's
staterooms. I could go on and on about the failings of the design, but I
don't want to rant.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
Message-ID: <OFEF72E03B.8084570D-ONCA256C0D.0005E3D1@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Rupert said:
>> Given that, I would have thought that in 1100 the Imperium would be at 
TL 
>> _13_, with "TL 14 just creeping in"?
>> 
>> What TL is the original AHL (built c.1005)? I thought it was built 
using 
>> the best tech at the time, and thus fitted out at TL 14 (with j-5 
>> drives)??
>
>IIRC the Imperial peak TL just nudged over into TL15 during the Rim 
>War, which ended in 1009 (I think).

Doh! Just looked at my Library Data, which has the Sol Rim War from 990 to 
1002.

Well, even if they've just reached TL 15, I think my original assertion 
still stands.

Oh, and yeah, I meant 1000, not 1100 (you knew that, right?).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <20020805082530.D24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEMCEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>> This gave them the necessary range, a single 10,000 mile GURPS
>> Traveller hex, to be effective weapons.
>
>Ah, that explains it.  You're using a two-dimensional map.  Yes, if
>you can restrict spacecraft to move in a plane, then I agree that
>space mines can be effective.  (But even then, only if you don't use
>the GURPS Traveller space combat system)
>
>
?????

What has that to do with anything. A det-laser mine that can fire across a
10,000 mile hex, can fire across a 10,000 sphere. After doing some searching
on my hard drive I find that actual range is more like 9 hexes, so in a
three dimensional game that would be a sphere 180,000 miles across. Of
course I remember you poo pooing the idea then too. (Note: some of your
comments, especially on robot controlled mines, computer programs and mines
with active sensors were right on.)
I think the best system we came up with was one where the mines were
controlled by either a controlling sensor platform or a ship. This makes the
mines smaller and cheaper. The sensors "paint" the target for the passive
sensors on the mines to pick up.
And as in real life these mines would be more of an area denial weapon than
an actual threat to a capital ship. And you would have to seed many many
mines which would probably not be station keeping, but would be moving
enmass into an area. Part of the point would be to force ships attempting to
traverse the area to slow down, use sensors and weapons to clear the mine
field. This alone would make them detectable to opposing craft.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Aircraft carrier displacement
Message-ID: <20020806013316.28336.qmail@web20418.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>

> Daniel Tackett wrote:

>> Would anyone here know how many displacement tons a
>>U.S. aircraft carrier like the "Enterprise" would be?

>Check out Ken Pick's excellent essay on Traveller starship tonnage. 
>It's on the Freelance Traveller website, I believe.
>
>Basically:
>
>	5 tons gross ship displacement(in today's nautical terms)=1
>displacement ton in Traveller.
>
>These are approximate, and there are some fairly complicated 
>variables, but this is a good rule of thumb.
>
>The essay also lists some typical ships and their Traveller tonnage:
>Carrier USS Enterprise (TL7): 75000 tons std, 90000 full-load = 
>approx. 18000 Tons Traveller 

That might be a good rule of thumb.  The Traveller dton is a measure
of volume, 1.5m x 1.5m x 3.0m, or 13.5m3.

The dimensions of the USS Enterprise (CVN-65) are given at these web
sites:

http://www02.clf.navy.mil/enterprise/
http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/factfile/ships/ship-cv.html

length = 335.64m
beam = 39.9m
height = 76.2m (keel to mast)

I was not able to find out the height of the mast and the conning
tower.  I'll assume that it's half of the keel to mast height.  That
gives a volume of 335.64 x 39.9 x 38.1 = 510,236m3.  510,236/13.5 =
37,795 dtons.  

The Enterprise is not a rectangular box, of course, so it is possible
that sloped sides make up for about half of the difference in volume
between its real shape and that of a rectangular box.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:36:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:36:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <20020806013559.48555.qmail@web20417.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>

>Dibs Arbellatra.  One of my favorite people in Traveller history.  
>Someday I'd love to write a sourcebook for the Arbellatra Regency.

You beat me to it!  She is also one of my favorites.  I see her
regency as a turning point in Imperial history at several levels.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump governor
Message-ID: <200208060139.MDR00542@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I don't see these in High Guard - IMTU, they don't exist.  If 
a Jump-4 ship jumps 2 parsecs, they only use 2 parsecs worth 
of fuel.

What was the last canon word on this subject, if any? 
________________
"I am Weasel!"

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
 <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]>
Message-ID: <p0433010bb974d90d92ee@[198.123.22.180]>

One thought that came up in this thead.  One you get to high enough 
scale, things become binary, either you can fire enough missiles to 
overwhelm the point defenses, or you can't.  (Not getting into 
"saving up missles" and other stuff).

What is the view toward using nukes for point defense?  Is it OK 
since it is "defensive"?  I think the Imperium wouldn't allow it (why 
do you have a nuke in the first place?) and it would only matter for 
fleet battles anyway...  So it would come down to any agreements, 
unspoken or otherwise, between the major powers (Impies vs Zhos, 
Impies vs Solos, Hivers vs the K'Kree) and whether it is seen as 
provoking retaliation.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020805215043.E25687@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEMDEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>Yes; either remove the chemical warhead or replace it with a fusion
>warhead.  A chemical explosive makes little sense.  Even the standard
>missiles accelerate to 72 km/s in the first round -- putting a
>chemical explosive in them is a bit like putting a spring-loaded
>boxing glove on an anti-tank penetrator.
>
>
The only reason I can think of is to allow you to self destruct the missile
if necessary.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:55:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:55:24 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1028592626.5758.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1028592626.5758.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <p0433010cb974db4e1b41@[198.123.22.180]>

At 5:10 PM -0700 8/5/02, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>David P. Summers writes:
>>
>>  I'm not sure how you are adding these....
>
>Cockpit bridge: nominal sensor range (PESA) 20,000
>Command bridge: nominal sensor range (PESA) 100,000
>Area covered by a given sensor: proportional to square of range.
>Note that since, in space, stealth in GT is twice as effective as emissions
>cloaking, there's really no point to useing the AESA, the PESA is 
>almost always
>more effective.


You are assuming close packed spheres.  Since object are likely 
moving wrt to each other, you would leave gaps.  Ie, you would have 
successive "shells" of sensors that object would need to pass through 
to approach (and fighters have high G ratings and can cover more 
ground per sensor by moveing around).  Also, If you take sensor input 
from multiple sensors and combine them, it is possible to generate 
detection of things that couldn't be detected within the range of 
anyone sensor.  Lastly, the advantage that a fighter gives only its 
own position, and not that of the capital ship, if it is caught first 
is non-trivial
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:57:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:57:14 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <p0433010bb974d90d92ee@[198.123.22.180]>
References: <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]>
 <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com>
 <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020805220304.026d01a0@mail.buffnet.net>

At 06:41 PM 08/05/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>One thought that came up in this thead.  One you get to high enough scale, 
>things become binary, either you can fire enough missiles to overwhelm the 
>point defenses, or you can't.  (Not getting into "saving up missles" and 
>other stuff).
>
>What is the view toward using nukes for point defense?  Is it OK since it 
>is "defensive"?  I think the Imperium wouldn't allow it (why do you have a 
>nuke in the first place?) and it would only matter for fleet battles 
>anyway...  So it would come down to any agreements, unspoken or otherwise, 
>between the major powers (Impies vs Zhos, Impies vs Solos, Hivers vs the 
>K'Kree) and whether it is seen as provoking retaliation.

I agree with the assessment about the "binary" situation.  I rather liked 
the concept of firing at each missile per wave.  If you want to insure that 
you don't get "leakage" you assign two gunners to each missile.  Then 
again?  Missiles can be bad enough as they are without allowing them to 
hit         ;)

Oh well.  Part of me likes the first edition rules, part of me likes the 
second edition.  Arrrghhhhh.  I still remember how disgusted I felt when I 
saw the new edition rules granting a +3 bonus to all the ROF bonuses - 
meant I would have had to go in and change all of my point defense lasers 
I'd built for CGI (my fictional Weapon's company).  Such was life then that 
I took it down.  Oh well.

                   Hal


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 19:59:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Mon Aug  5 18:59:05 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020805221551.F25687@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEMDEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>> What you do is build lasers whose only purpose of existance is to
>> damage missiles.  Build those lasers so that you have a high rate of
>> fire.
>
>High RoF doesn't do a lot.  It just counts as a bonus to hit in the
>combat system.  e.g. Multiplying the RoF by 16 gives you +4 bonus.
>This would mean 2 extra hits per shot, except:
>
>For the same volume requirement, your weapon has to use about 10 times
>less energy per shot.  That cuts the damage by a factor of about 3,
>which doesn't matter a lot against the standard missiles.  It will
>however reduce your range by a factor of 3 -- not a problem, you say,
>because you only need less than a hex?  Range directly determines
>accuracy, which will thus drop by 3.
>
>The net effect is a +1 to hit.  You're almost back where you started,
>except that now your weapon is greatly restricted in its utility for
>any other role.
>
>I've been along that route :-/

In the playtest for Starships I believe it was stated that you simply use a
computer program to reconfigure your standard lasers for point defense. It
is assumed that point defense takes place at very short ranges (for space
combat.)


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 20:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fred Ramen)
Date: Mon Aug  5 19:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra (WAS: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
Message-ID: <00fa01c23ced$9eedde60$331df7a5@pctframen>

"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes:

"Dibs Arbellatra.  One of my favorite people in Traveller history.  Someday
I'd love to write a sourcebook for the Arbellatra Regency."

Aye, mine too. Such a book might finally answer the question of just what
kind of leader she was.

IMHO, the model for Arbellatra is Augustus--not Julius--Caesar. That is, she
was more a illiant politician than a brilliant general. I base this on a few
factors:

1) She essentially lost the 2FW but still managed to declare victory and
mobilize the Marches behind her. (Remember, the Imperium ceded territory to
the Zhodani after the war, and Library Data mentions that the final
engagement resulted in a "stalemate" between the two sides. She basically
one the war the same way the U.S. "won" the War of 1812--by not losing as
badly as expected.)

2) It seems doubtful to me that even after a decade of civil war her
provincial fleet could cow the Vland Sector Fleet--yet she must have had the
cooperation of Vland sector, as others have pointed out, in order to
triumph. Again, this demonstrates her political acumen.

3) Her masterly stroke of refusing the crown is remarkably similar to
Augustus' own "retirement" from government--while in truth retaining a firm
grip on the reins of power. (The people of Rome demanded at one point that
he publish a list of candidates he favored, so they would know who to vote
for--not from coercion, but from a devotion to Augustus.)

My interpretation may also explain her meteoric rise to high command at such
a young age--perhaps her title of Grand Admiral of the Marches was a
ceremonial one, or rank was determined by noble standing to a much greater
degree in the antebellum Imperium. (Indeed, perhaps Arbellatra reformed the
military to make it more egalitarian, not only to prevent a rival from
rising in a fashion like her own, but to insure loyalty to the Emperor and
the Imperium and not the individual commander, as seems to be the case with
Plankwell and the other Emperors of the Flag.)

Fred "Arbellatra Divina" Ramen


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 20:16:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Aug  5 19:16:31 2002
Subject: [TML] "It's Al Qaida's fault we bombed a wedding party!"
Message-ID: <20020806021519.42100.qmail@web11304.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Under the rules of war, we've been discussing, if an
enemy intentionally builds fortifications or other
military structures among a civilian populance, then
that enemy becomes rssponsible for the safety of those
aforementioned civilians. If those civilians are
actively and willfully supporting the enemy, then they
are no longer considered noncombatants. So, it IS Al
Quaida's fault and responsibility if the US
intentionally seeks to bomb a legitimate military
target that Al Qaida has hidden behind a human shield.
END QUOTE

Bomb civilians? To be polite what the f*&# are all the
special forces for? A bunch of civilians having a
wedding on an arms dump hardly need to be strafed by
C-130 gunships! Most would surrender as soon as ground
troops approached and those who attacked would be
shot. Sure maybe some troops would be shot, but they
knew that when they signed up. Killing hundreds of
civilians just to save a few of "our" soldiers is not
an ethical trade! During the early part of the Korean
war US forces where ordered by the Supreme Command to
fire on any refugees attempting to croos their lines,
in case the North Korean army was using them as
infiltrators! The Pentagon has repeatedly tried to
cover this up, my fear is much the same thing is going
on today. And I am not a dove to use the American
term, I advocated intervention in Afgahnistan three
years ago. I also support the invasion of Iraq
(Actually I believe Saddam should have been dead in
91). However killing civilians just because it is
easier than using ground forces is no excuse. Except
in exceptional circumstances such as using the A-bomb
on japan (though I would have preferred a live "test"
on a non populated region), where its purpose was more
to break the spirit of the japanese and prevent even
worse civilian casualties.

James

http://digital.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Digital How To
- Get the best out of your PC!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 20:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 19:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] UWP generator
In-Reply-To: <20020730040045.54068.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20805.174051.5d2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I am currently in the process of creating my own home
> brew campaign setting (Can you say "Goa'uld of the
> starboard bow!")

I've got some images of stargates (both photos and drawings) and some
fonts with the symbols. I got them courtesy of someone who runs an SG-1
website.

> I could write the software myself but my C++
> compiler won't do random numbers (machine specific
> problem) and I don't yet know enough Java.

What's wrong with BASIC? <g>

The old interpreted QBASIC was still on the disks as of Win 98SE. I
don't know about ME or XP. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 20:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Aug  5 19:35:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <20020806023441.86669.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
I'll repeat myself.  Using the small fleet concept
that Roseberry posted earlier, I would be interested
in running a TL 12 PBEM.

Then we could find out through politics what other
players (representing their governments) think of
things like planetary bombardment, prisoner exchange,
trade embargos, blockades, etc.
END QUOTE

I would be interested. Even though I haven't designed
any military ships before. Can I be the "Evil Empire",
to exercise my sick and twisted imagination (too many
years of playing Vampire:TM) ;)

James


http://digital.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Digital How To
- Get the best out of your PC!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 20:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 19:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <200208060250.MDT01032@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Ramsay says
>I would be interested. Even though I haven't designed
>any military ships before. Can I be the "Evil Empire",
>to exercise my sick and twisted imagination (too many
>years of playing Vampire:TM) ;)
>

I think we have to go with Doug's idea, and take this to 
several levels - some people would be fleet commanders, some 
people would be the politicians, and some people would be the 
First Space Lord (Lord of the Admiralty?).

Also, it would have to be coordinated so all commo went 
through me, so that we could get everyone good and confused.

I was just thinking of things like the Imperial Navy 
Permanent Fighting Instructions...
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 21:07:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 20:07:35 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEMDEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <20020805221551.F25687@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEMDEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <4035.64.8.3.28.1028603214.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

Hello Terry,

> In the playtest for Starships I believe it was stated that you simply
> use a computer program to reconfigure your standard lasers for point
> defense. It is assumed that point defense takes place at very short
> ranges (for space combat.)

When I built lasers for use in my traveller campaign back when first
edition Traveller came out - I built purpose built point defense lasers. 
They didn't have a lot of damaging ability - perfect for civilian use. 
They did however, have a higher rate of fire than normal lasers...



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 21:25:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 20:25:20 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller - more
Message-ID: <d1.1c6715c7.2a8098f4@aol.com>

 >Actually, given some of the other tech, the weapons could be fusion
 >warheads that don't *need* a fission trigger.

I see.  Then (ignoring the fact that this is fantasy technology) I suppose 
that anyone with access to a fusion plant of any size will have access to a 
fusion "nuke" (for lack of another word)?

Book 4 states that the PGMP-13 is powered by a fusion reactor.  I don't 
suppose this would be significantly larger than that on a missile, so how 
much modification would be needed to turn it into a bomb?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 21:26:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Mon Aug  5 20:26:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: T20 background question
Message-ID: <200208060324.g763OPw20614@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] T20 background question
...
>TL 14 would be the equivalent of TL 15 - the TL of most modern military
>gear. Depending on how long TL 14 had been around, a fair bit of older stuff
>might be TL 14 too.
>
>The counter mix from Invasion Earth might be worth studying. Images of it
>may be available on the Far Futures website.

  Courtesy of the TML RoM TL Flamewar/Debate of 1997 Historical 
Re-enactment Society:

  Feb 19 98
>To: Traveller
>From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>Subject: IM equipment/doctrine
>
>  I was recently flipping through a rather overpriced copy of the
>Regency Vehicle Sourcebook (?), and got the strong impression that
>Imperial Marines were (in TNE, at least) always equipped to the
>best standard, that being 14 or 15 by the Rebellion.
>
>  That all makes sense and is probably an extension of Striker II
>material, but while pawing through the Invasion: Earth counter mix
>I ran across a bunch of TL 12 and 13 Marines. I know that projects
>about Marine history and TO&E's are out there, and I was wondering
>if any ideas had been formed about how this fit IM or IN doctrine,
>or what had changed since 1002.
>
>  As all other units seem to be limited to TL 14, presumably all
>~max. TL Marines were serving with fleet elements continuing the
>offensive beyond Sol system. So it would appear that at least
>until then that the IM had independent Marine regiments (from the
>counters) of lower (12/13) TL for occupation or follow-up duties.
>
>  This assumes that the white Imperial counters with a star for ID
>type are Marines... my copy of FFW went AWOL long ago.
>

        ********   

 Apr 6 98
>To: Traveller
>From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>Subject: I:E commandoes
>
>>>For the record, Inv: Earth gives _both_ sides TL14 troops counters.  The
>>>Imperial forces are broken down as to Regulars, Colonials, etc., but no
>>>such distinction is made for the Solomani counters.  (Exactly why I
>>>stated that the claim that Earth was TL13 was, well, an exaggeration.)
>>
>>   This fits nicely with establish canon.  I'm not sure what the problem
>>is here.  While it is possible that the Imperium and Solomani had some
>>TL 15 commandos or other small elite formations, at the scale the game
>>is conducted, they would not have been a factor in the fighting (or
>>would have been lumped in with a lower tech formation).
>
>  This came up several months ago. However, both commando units (regiment
>-sized raiders) and rules (ignore ZOC's/occupied hexes) are covered, and
>none are TL 15. Also, while Terra can churn out replacement armies at TL
>14, not even a few thousand TL 15 lift infantry kits can be produced.
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 21:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug  5 20:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020806075541.B27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805090845.01831e50@192.168.0.1>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020804223247.0237e008@192.168.0.1>
 <20020804232303.7408.33320.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <006701c23c1f$2baff600$195d8690@computer>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020804223247.0237e008@192.168.0.1>
 <20020805202103.D25687@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020805090845.01831e50@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020805225506.02acc008@192.168.0.1>

At 07:55 AM 8/6/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
> > It was determined that published trade rules didn't fit the big picture.
>That may be so, but they are the official rules for the official
>universe.  I agree that variant rules may give variant results.

 From what I recall, the rules for small (100-200 ton) 'tramp' traders.
That is what players typically have (instead of freighters the size of Navy 
Cruisers)
It's been a long time since I looked at the CT rules, and haven't dug into 
the Far Trader rules to the extent you have.

The thread started with how did the die off happen in TNE on Rockballs if 
they grow all their own food.
Someone else has stated that the Virus would play havoc with the local 
greenhouses and such (and gave examples)

I'll take your word that the numbers in Far Trader state that high pop 
rockballs grow all their own food.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vegetarian: An old Indian word that means "lousy hunter."
                www.urbin.net/EWW/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 21:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mosaic Tapestry)
Date: Mon Aug  5 20:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra (WAS: warship optimization in Traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <00fa01c23ced$9eedde60$331df7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <002901c23cfa$9b96b130$2f7de40c@loki>

Fred Ramen shares with us a wonderful comparison of Arbellatra and
Augustus to wit I must say thank you. It is these kinds of analysis,
shared, that reignites my desires to look into parts of the Traveller
universe I had allowed to rest and become dusty.

For those wishing to further explore may I offer these semi-random
links?

http://home.earthlink.net/~nimrodd/LibraryData/A/Arbellatra.htm
http://home.earthlink.net/~nimrodd/LibraryData/C/CivilWar.htm
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw/libdata/ALPHABET/S/soegz.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Matrix/1302/HIWGNZ/I3.html
http://www.ogrecave.com/reviews/darkmoon.shtml
http://www.flash.net/~grazzit/history.html
http://members.cox.net/carlino/Survey.htm
http://www.jtas.org/Software/downloads/megat1.txt
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~iandl57/samson.html
http://www.io.com/~mike_f/RPG/Rumors_of_War/Third_Imperium.html
http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/money.html
http://www.rossmack.com/ab/rpg/traveller/ChartedSpace/BY/BY1104.asp
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~iandl57/tranoii.html
http://www.io.com/~thrash/imperium.html

I did say they were semi-random didn't I? Anyway I had fun collecting
'em hope some of you have fun following them.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 21:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 20:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
Message-ID: <159.120df85e.2a809f36@aol.com>

 >> > Army?  What army?
 >> 
 >> I'll believe that when I see it. This sort of talking has always 
 >> turned 
 >> out to be wishful thinking in the past, and I see no reason why it 
 >> isn't now. It's all very well while you're thrashing low-tech 
 >> thrid-
 >> worlders, but sooner or later there'll be another first-world vs 
 >> first-
 >> world scrap, and spec ops teams relying on vast amounts of support 
 >> just 
 >> won't cut it.
 >> 
 >I refer readers to the Fehrenbach quote the opens Chapter 1 of GT:GF.  
 >Words to the effect of (quoted from memory):
 >
 >You may fly over a land forever; you may bomb it, atomize it, sterilize 
 >it and wipe it clean of life; but if you wish to defend it for 
 >civilization, you must do this the way the Romans did, by putting your 
 >young men into the mud.

I would agree.  But as you will observe in Afghanistan (and arguably Serbia) 
they did it by putting someone else's young men into the mud -- and not all 
that many of those.  I seem to remember something along those lines in 
Gibbons ....

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 21:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug  5 20:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller - more
Message-ID: <200208060348.MDV00878@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Flykiller asks
>Book 4 states that the PGMP-13 is powered by a fusion 
>reactor.  I don't suppose this would be significantly larger 
>than that on a missile, so how much modification would be 
>needed to turn it into a bomb?


Take a look at the LANL Magnetized Target Fusion web page.  
Then think about how that could be used as an initiator for a 
fusion weapon - without the traditional fission primary.

The Z-pinch at Sandia is also a possibility, if the power 
conditioning piece can be made small enough.
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 22:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Aug  5 21:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEMDEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEMDEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <1028606767.3d4f4b2fa9269@www.paradise.net.nz>

Quoting Terry Carlino <carlino@cox.net>:

> In the playtest for Starships I believe it was stated that you simply
> use a
> computer program to reconfigure your standard lasers for point defense.
> It
> is assumed that point defense takes place at very short ranges (for
> space
> combat.)

For point-defence lasers using FF&S1 I assumed that you could crank up the RoF 
by lowering the energy per pulse by the requisite amount. As a 200MJ RoF100 
laser (for example) has the same focal array volume as a 50MJ RoF800 laser the 
only inefficiency is in needing a 200MJ HPG. AFAICT being able to install only 
one type of laser makes up for that quite easily.

-- 
Rupert Boleyn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 23:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug  5 22:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Aircraft carrier displacement
Message-ID: <OF2DF9F69F.D7DF6D06-ONCA256C0D.001C4302@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Glenn wrote:
>I was not able to find out the height of the mast and the conning
>tower.  I'll assume that it's half of the keel to mast height.  That
>gives a volume of 335.64 x 39.9 x 38.1 = 510,236m3.  510,236/13.5 =
>37,795 dtons.
>
>The Enterprise is not a rectangular box, of course, so it is possible
>that sloped sides make up for about half of the difference in volume
>between its real shape and that of a rectangular box.

Triangular box, so it should be roughly 1/3 of your figure (~12,500 
dtons). If it's 5/12ths to allow for the larger stern, it comes to 15,750 
dtons. Then add the "island" section.

I'd go with Brian's 18,000-ton figure. Near enough for Daniel's 
"visualisation in my head" work.  ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 23:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Clint Rynners)
Date: Mon Aug  5 22:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <OFAB1B22C2.9545AAF0-ON42256C0D.001E9A8B@ko.com>

John T. Kwon wrote:
"May we assume that the countdown has begun?"

Mr Kwon

I am of the view that we are not going very far as a species until we
manage to get our act together on Earth and solve the seemingly
insurmountable problems - of our own doing - facing us. Even interplanetary
travel on any significant scale is just not going to happen unless we
instigate a paradigm shift in the way we behave towards each other and
towards life in general. Is it unreasonable to assume that any sentient
species that gains control of its environment has to learn to curb
exponential growth and a corresponding exponential increase in the demand
for resources? Only once this hurdle is overcome will the ability to
harness the resources of a single solar system and the ability to travel to
other solar systems be developed. Perhaps I am making sweeping assumptions,
but this seems to be the case with the only example I have to base my views
on.
 Another point to consider is that we are unlikely to encounter an alien
species in the same technological ballpark as us. Given the age of our
galaxy, and the number of times in the past the conditions for life as we
know them have probably occurred, our encounter with an alien species
travelling through interstellar space is probably going to be them
investigating us in the manner that we would investigate an ant-hill. We
would be more of a curiosity than a threat.

Having said all this, Greg Bear's "The Forge of God" and "The Anvil of the
Stars" left me cold. The notion that we have not been contacted by other
species is because they are all doing their best to hide, much like small
creatures in a jungle full of predators. And we are like a dumb little
bird, sitting on a branch chirping away as loudly as possible to all and
sundry. A memorable analogy from the second book, as a remnant of humanity
seeks to punish the species that destroyed the Earth: they were like a fly
(could have been an ant) entering someone's kitchen, intent on revenge.

Your thoughts?

Regards

Clint Rynners



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug  5 23:56:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Clint Rynners)
Date: Mon Aug  5 22:56:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Aircraft carrier displacement
Message-ID: <OFA1CCF309.C0F79DCF-ON42256C0D.0020C815@ko.com>

"Would anyone here know how many displacement tons a
U.S. aircraft carrier like the "Enterprise" would be?"

There is an article in the Shipyard section of Freelance Traveller about
the dtons and the displacement of water-borne vessels.

Regards

Clint Rynners


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 00:06:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Mon Aug  5 23:06:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Woo Hoo Yepieee the IW are coming to town
Message-ID: <3D500FEB.23377.99926E7@localhost>

Copied from JTAS

From:       Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Date:       23:01:47, Aug 05, 2002
Message-ID: 15305
Group:      General Discussion

Interstellar Wars: A New Direction For Traveller Steve Jackson Games is 
pleased to announce that its license to produce a GURPS version of the 
classic science-fiction roleplaying game Traveller has been extended for 
another three years. By agreement with Far Future Enterprises, the 
GURPS Traveller line, as well as the online Journal of the Travellers' Aid 
Society, will continue at least through the end of 2005.

The new license also gives SJ Games the right to open up a new period in 
the distant past of the classic Third Imperium setting. Long before the 
foundation of the Imperium, the Humans of Terra reached the stars for the 
first time, only to find that they were already owned by someone else. 
Centuries of conflict followed, in which the outnumbered Terrans fought for 
their very survival against a vast but decadent alien empire. Now GURPS 
Traveller will examine this crucial time. The first release in the new line, 
GURPS Traveller: The Interstellar Wars, is tentatively scheduled for a 
Summer 2003 release.

"The Interstellar Wars have always been of great interest to Traveller fans," 
said GURPS Traveller Line Editor Jon F. Zeigler. "It's very exciting to have 
the opportunity to develop this period into a setting for epic adventure." 
Marc Miller, creator of Traveller, agreed. "I'm excited about opening a new 
milieu. There's room for a lot of new things here." Senior Line Editor Loren 
Wiseman, long-time Traveller author and editor, remains at the helm of the 
GURPS Traveller product line. He is assisted by Zeigler, and by Graeme 
Davis, editor of the Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society (JTAS).


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 00:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Mon Aug  5 23:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
Message-ID: <20020806021137.13bb35092d5d49ae9344179b452c1788.in@keywest.kennett.net>

Hi,

This probably displays the depths of my ignorance, but can anybody give me a
description of how a unit's change of command ceremony goes?  I am looking
specifically for the US Navy's protocol, but any nation or service is welcomed.

Thanks,

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

 My Sale List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
 My Want List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 01:28:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Tue Aug  6 00:28:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
References: <20020805183149.2742.79211.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D4F7A61.BA9F032E@ameritech.net>

> Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 09:42:43 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> David Shayne <daveshayne@ameritech.net> writes:
> >
> >> Any clues?
> >
> >I couldn't find that info in any TNE source. There are charts for that
> >in "World Builder's Handbook" for MT. Assuming for the moment that you
> >don't have access to that very worthwhile publication I can give you
> >some typical figures from that source.
> >
> >Smallest SGG radius = 20
> >Average SGG radius ~= 60
> >Highest SGG radius = 100
> >
> >Smallest LGG radius = 110
> >Average LGG radius ~= 175
> >Highest LGG radius = 240
> 
> Applying a realism check here, Jupiter, at size 88, is about the limit
> for any sort of gas giant (assuming TNE size is in thousands of miles,
> like CT size).

Yes it is. And yes from a perfect realism standpoint this is wrong.
However probably not hugely broken since the main thing we need to
determine here is the mass and this gives a reasonable number for mass
while still being usable with the same formula as for small rocky worlds
. (like earth) Besides I tend to the view that wherever reality and the
rules are in conflict it's almost always reality that has it wrong.
(With a special thanks to the late Doug Adams.)

> >
> >Lowest GG density = .1
> >Average GG density ~= .21
> >Highest GG density = .3
> 
> Assuming that's g/cc, that's horribly wrong. 

Standard densities. With Earth = 1. Doesn't look so horibly wrong now
does it? 

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 01:44:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug  6 00:44:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
In-Reply-To: <3D4FA627.26089.39E708@localhost>
References: <3D4E5E7E.26225.7DEF71@localhost> <20020806081755.D27684@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D4FA627.26089.39E708@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020806174314.A28821@freeman.little-possums.net>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> No, I forgot to mention that this model can run the sensor and brain 
> for 7 days.

Phew, that's quite a bit better.  You're right about the huge drain
for PEMS though.  Aren't they meant to be *passive* sensors?


> Perhaps a CAPTOR style sensor platform with a number of small missiles 
> on board would be a workable comprimise, though it'd start getting 
> expensive real quick, and it wouldn't be long before most design 
> committees turned it into a small battle-station by adding point 
> defence, etc. I'm sure.

I strongly suspect so, yes.  Trouble is, they'd probably be right :(
Maybe small mines aren't viable in FF&S?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 02:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mosaic Tapestry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 01:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <20020806021137.13bb35092d5d49ae9344179b452c1788.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <000e01c23d20$3c40c240$2f7de40c@loki>

I'm not sure which details are important to you but the essential bit of
a US Army change of command is the transfer of the colors. The outgoing
commander hands the colors to his commanding officer who immediately
hands them to the incoming commander.

A web page of events surrounding such with photo of the act:
http://www.militarymarksmanship.org/hoidahlcoc.htm

A web page of events surrounding such with parade and all:
http://www.afsouth.nato.int/images/change.htm



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 02:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug  6 01:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com> <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com> <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>

Hal wrote:
> List all of the modifiers to gunner's skill you are using in a 
> missile/antimissile engagement.

Pretty similar to yours.  In more detail:

> Skill 12 laser gunner

A reasonable median.  I've been assuming about 9 for civilians who
have weapons but test-fire them more than they use them, up to about
15 for well-trained and experienced military personnel.

> Gunnery +6 to hit program

I generally use a Complexity 8 targeting program for +9 to hit (not
cumulative with Gunnery program).  Civilian ships will have less,
possibly +4.

> ROF bonus +10

I get only +7 RoF bonus per laser, or +8 (maybe +9) for a standard
"triple laser" turret.  Are you grouping them into larger batteries?

> Total modifiers:
> 12+ 32 + 6 + 10 + 10 + 2 - 39 = 72-39 = 32

Pretty close; I get between 24-37 depending upon circumstances; 32 is
fine.


> Rolling an average of 10 on 3d6 means that you will have succeeded by 
> 22.  Number of missiles successfully engaged in that round will be equal to 
> round((22-3)/2,0) or 19/2 rounded up or 10.

It's rather odd to see a turret that fires only 1 shot per 20 seconds
take out 10 missiles in the 15-30 seconds it takes the missiles to
cross the last half-hex, but them's the rules :(

Yes, that's close to the figures I get.


>  Please note that second edition rules for TRAVELLER have bumped up
> the ROF bonus from their current levels to current levels +3.

That's OK, I've got the second edition rules.  Just bought them a
couple of months ago.


> If more than 10 are inbound, he stops 10 and the rest hit.

That's the problem.  Dton-for-dton, there will always be more than 10
incoming missiles per defending turret using any sane launcher and
guidance design.  A million points of impact damage per turret
*really* hurts.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 02:41:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 01:41:04 2002
Subject: [TML] GURPS MISSILE WARFARE (was The big fleet debate)
In-Reply-To: <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

>> Gunnery +6 to hit program
>
> I generally use a Complexity 8 targeting program for +9 to hit (not
> cumulative with Gunnery program).  Civilian ships will have less,
> possibly +4.

The CDI (C Defense Industries) had a showcase of a lot of different types
of low power lasers.  The trade off was that they increased the rate of
fire to get an increase in ROF bonus.  One interesting development was to
build a specialized targeting computer.  Using GURPS rules, it was a
specilized computer getting a +1 complexity bonus for use with a targeting
computer.


>> ROF bonus +10
>
> I get only +7 RoF bonus per laser, or +8 (maybe +9) for a standard
> "triple laser" turret.  Are you grouping them into larger batteries?

The point defense lasers I built could easily attain that ROF bonus. 
Since lasers in a single turret cannot target different targets, most
Point defense scenarios I had were such that you had a triple turret
firing three lasers at its target.  I will see if I can dig up my archived
copy of the point defense lasers.  But +10 is not hard to achieve :)


>> Total modifiers:
>> 12+ 32 + 6 + 10 + 10 + 2 - 39 = 72-39 = 32
>
> Pretty close; I get between 24-37 depending upon circumstances; 32 is
> fine.
>
>
>> Rolling an average of 10 on 3d6 means that you will have succeeded by
>> 22.  Number of missiles successfully engaged in that round will be
>> equal to  round((22-3)/2,0) or 19/2 rounded up or 10.
>
> It's rather odd to see a turret that fires only 1 shot per 20 seconds
> take out 10 missiles in the 15-30 seconds it takes the missiles to
> cross the last half-hex, but them's the rules :(

Minor thoughts: part of that +10 bonus for Point defense comes of the fact
that the missiles attempting to hit you have to come in from a specific
"region".  This region is a relatively small cone that gets smaller the
closer those missiles come to you.  But you are correct.  There should be
a MAX number of targets that can be engaged by a single laser group per
turn equal to the max number of shots a single laser in the grouping and
put out in a turn.


>> If more than 10 are inbound, he stops 10 and the rest hit.
>
> That's the problem.  Dton-for-dton, there will always be more than 10
> incoming missiles per defending turret using any sane launcher and
> guidance design.  A million points of impact damage per turret
> *really* hurts.

Using the concept that the current weapon systems are designed to operate
against the current enemy weapon technology - try using the GURPS
TRAVELLER missile designs first.  Then do an analysis of weapons in the
TRAVELLER universe.  If you can see where there is an improved methodology
for weapons, post it and we can argue the merits and/or improve any
oversights.  I am still flabberghasted that no one ever noticed that the
FAST drug makes a FAR better alternative for cheap travel than does a
freeze tube!

  But that is another story ;)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 03:22:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Aug  6 02:22:04 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
References: <OF2F3C29E3.8D5E3297-ONCA256C0C.0081279C@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <004501c23d2c$34a85e60$d601bd50@martinjd>

>
> Martin replied:
> >>What is the TL of  the Imperium & the Terran Confederation in the
> >>Year 1000 setting of T20?
> >
> >The Impeirum is TL 14 mostly, with Tl 15 just creeping in over the last
> few
> >years.
>
> OK, this one's got me puzzled, I'll give a serious reply now.


Ooops. Sorry "best tech in the Imperium is mostly TL 14, with 15 creeping
in". Average is lower..


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 03:23:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Aug  6 02:23:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump governor
References: <200208060139.MDR00542@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <004a01c23d2c$35f06ec0$d601bd50@martinjd>

> I don't see these in High Guard - IMTU, they don't exist.  If
> a Jump-4 ship jumps 2 parsecs, they only use 2 parsecs worth
> of fuel.
>
> What was the last canon word on this subject, if any?

Marc's last statement (and confirmed to me in a question I asked a while
ago) was that if you have J-3 fuel and you J-1, you only use J1 of fuel up.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 04:07:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Tue Aug  6 03:07:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Taxes
In-Reply-To: <20020805183149.2742.79211.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208061200220.25606-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Anthony Jackson writes:
>In Striker, the implication is that the imperial military tax is simply 1/3
>of the planet's total military expenditure (with another 1/3 going to the
>subsector fleet, so the world only keeps 1/3 for personal forces).

Incorrect. It's 30% of total military expenditure that goes to the
Imperium with 70% retained for local use. The 30% is divided between
regular and subsector forces. I used to be convinced that somewhere I had
seen a canonical statement to the effect that these Imperial military
taxes were split 50/50 between regular and subsector forces (so 15% to
each), but I've been trying to track down the reference for a while with
no luck, so I'm beginning to doubt. Maybe I made it up myself (anyone who
can come up with the reference will earn my undying gratitude ;-).



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 04:20:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug  6 03:20:05 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1028592330.6838.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020806083856.E27684@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1028592330.6838.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020806201901.C28821@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Ok, that's reasonable.  Now, let's look at a point defense system:

> 9 x rE cell, good for 50 shots: 0.09T, $90k

I get $180k, but that doesn't matter much.

> Dedicated Macroframe: 0.25T, $50k, complexity 11

I get $100k and Complexity 10 at TL12.  It's not hardened, but that's
not likely to be a problem except in really unusual situations.


> Targeting +12: $512k (but probably gets a bulk discoute)

I get $256k, and I agree about the bulk discount ;) However, I can
only seem to fit a $128k +11 program in the macroframe.


> with the Vehicles system beam weapons in space have no Acc cap,

However, in the Vehicles rules maximum accuracy bonus is limited to
Gunnery skill, in this case 25.  There's no point in aiming more than
one second.  That gives you a base of 50 (51 since you can miss by one
and still hit).


> The missile is being fired at one second before impact

You'd better make that at least two seconds else the now unguided
missile will still hit your ship.  You need to do a *lot* more damage
to annihilate it.  (In fact, if there are a lot of missiles, you might
find it very hard to dodge all the "dead" ones...)

That doesn't change the basic to-hit number by much, it's 15- instead
of 16-.  Continuing the progression out to the 1/2D limit, I also get
an average of about 8 missiles killed.

It's a good thing I didn't put thermal superconductors in their
armour ;)


> Hm...that's actually worse than I realized.  Oh well, if they send a
> really big swarm of missiles at you simply dump a canister round in
> front of them.

How *big* a canister round?

You need to disable the missiles about 600 miles out, and they will
probably be approaching from a region 200 miles across at that
distance.  Your canister must disperse about ten trillion objects of
sufficient size to reliably disable a missile, just to cut the numbers
in half.

A 20 MJ x-ray pulse is barely enough to penetrate the DR, so I'll use
that to derive an estimate of particle size required.  At 500 km/s,
that works out to a mass of about 0.16 grams, which I will round down
to 0.1 grams to give some benefit of the doubt to the defending side.

Each canister must thus have a mass of about a million tonnes.  You
would actually need a few times that to account for dispersion.


Your countermissile idea was better.  I've designed and played it
using Vehicles rules, and it is a highly reliable system for
intercepting missiles.

It would probably fail horribly when faced with a "silent launch" from
an untracked ship though.  In my Vehicles test of this scenario, most
of the missiles weren't detected until about 10 seconds before impact.
Even with an immediate launch at 30 gees, they couldn't intercept the
missiles at a safe distance.  In such a case, lasers are about the
only option -- and even then, not a good one.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 04:25:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Aug  6 03:25:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
In-Reply-To: <c8.2aaa2ec2.2a794cbe@cs.com>
Message-ID: <20806.014533.9X1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> >That's John Milius.
>> 
>> So it is . . . he still should have directed Starship Troopers.
>> 
>> LKW
>
> Anyone _OTHER_ than Verhoeven should have directed Starship Troopers.

Yeah, but if he directed Red Dawn, he *definitely* makes the short list.


-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 04:39:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug  6 03:39:04 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEMCEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <20020805082530.D24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEMCEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20020806203758.D28821@freeman.little-possums.net>

Terry Carlino wrote:
[2D maps vs 3D maps]
> What has that to do with anything. A det-laser mine that can fire
> across a 10,000 mile hex, can fire across a 10,000 sphere.

The difference is in how many you need.  A typical interplanetary
"traffic lane" would be a few million miles wide (say 5 million).  On
a 2-D map, you only need 500 mines which is expensive but probably
doable.  On a 3D map you need 250,000 -- that's almost certain to
break your budget given how much they cost each.

Note that I'm not saying mines are ineffective in general, I was
commenting in the thread that started with an attacker trying to use
them to destroy interplanetary commerce.  I don't think that will work
well enough to be worthwhile.


> After doing some searching on my hard drive I find that actual range
> is more like 9 hexes, so in a three dimensional game that would be a
> sphere 180,000 miles across.

9 hexes range is a lot better.  You only need about 800 to cover that
traffic lane.  


> I think the best system we came up with was one where the mines were
> controlled by either a controlling sensor platform or a ship. This
> makes the mines smaller and cheaper. The sensors "paint" the target
> for the passive sensors on the mines to pick up.

Yes, that rings a bell.  Again, more effective in 2D than 3D, but
useful for covering the space near a planet or other "small" area.


> Part of the point would be to force ships attempting to traverse the
> area to slow down, use sensors and weapons to clear the mine
> field. This alone would make them detectable to opposing craft.

I've not found detection of enemy craft to be much of a problem in my
test-bed runs.  Usually the side with mines controls the system, sees
the jump flash of any intruder, and can track everything they
subsequently do.

Maybe I'm just lacking battle experience against other people.  Is
avoiding detection by the defender a possibility in most people's
scenarios?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 04:44:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug  6 03:44:04 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <p0433010bb974d90d92ee@[198.123.22.180]>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com> <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net> <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <p04330100b97311a19ec4@[198.123.22.175]> <p0433010bb974d90d92ee@[198.123.22.180]>
Message-ID: <20020806204257.E28821@freeman.little-possums.net>

David P. Summers wrote:
> What is the view toward using nukes for point defense?

My first thought would be "Is it worthwhile?"

Politically, I suspect it lies in a murky area.  In practice, I
suspect that the advantages of using nuclear weapons for defense
aren't sufficient to be worth the chance that the other side might
take it as a sign that it's OK for them to use nukes in offense.

I can see very clear advantages to using nukes offensively...


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 04:46:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug  6 03:46:04 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEMDEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <20020805215043.E25687@freeman.little-possums.net> <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEMDEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20020806204412.F28821@freeman.little-possums.net>

Terry Carlino wrote:
> The only reason I can think of is to allow you to self destruct the
> missile if necessary.

Yes, I guess that makes sense.  Thanks :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 05:15:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Tue Aug  6 04:15:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Ad campaign......
Message-ID: <20020806111409.62570.qmail@web11001.mail.yahoo.com>

Just a thought for an InstellArms catalog:

http://www.missilesandfirecontrol.com/our_products/antiarmor.html

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 06:04:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Aug  6 05:04:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
In-Reply-To: <20020806174314.A28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <3D4FA627.26089.39E708@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D5063E3.15285.4B7F3E@localhost>

On 6 Aug 2002 at 17:43, Timothy Little wrote:

> Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > No, I forgot to mention that this model can run the sensor and brain 
> > for 7 days.
> 
> Phew, that's quite a bit better.  You're right about the huge drain
> for PEMS though.  Aren't they meant to be *passive* sensors?

Yeah. I think they must use valves in their signal processor, or 
something. :)

> > Perhaps a CAPTOR style sensor platform with a number of small missiles 
> > on board would be a workable comprimise, though it'd start getting 
> > expensive real quick, and it wouldn't be long before most design 
> > committees turned it into a small battle-station by adding point 
> > defence, etc. I'm sure.
> 
> I strongly suspect so, yes.  Trouble is, they'd probably be right :(
> Maybe small mines aren't viable in FF&S?

It depends what for. That first design I posted was only 1 m^3 in 
volume, and would be quite hard to avoid, I think. the 3 G-turns of 
fuel it had is enough to guarantee that it can get into firing position 
of anything that comes within 60,000km or so (a turn in TNE is 30 
minutes, and a hex 30,000km).

By ditching the rocket the volume can be brought down to 0.6 m^3 and 
the cost to MCr1.423 at TL15, but then the mine can only attack craft 
that come into its hex - within 10-15,000km or so. I tried taking off 
the Electromagnetic Masking (EMM), but that didn't save any significant 
space, money or power.

Actually playing around I see that if a fusion reactor of minimum size 
is put in (assuming TL15 that's 0.1 m^3 and 0.6MW) you can still have 
the basic 1 m^3 mine, and about 4 months fuel, with no noticeable 
increase in cost. In fact the limit to performance suddenly bocomes 
surface area on which to mount the PEMS.

Thus:

TL Guidance Vol Mass AV MCr   G-Turns Warhead Hits Damage  Range
15 Full-Ind 1   1.26 3  1.547 3/3     50kt    1D6  1/14-43 0

Comm Sensor Signatures     Asset
10L  1P     +4/+3/+4/+3/+1 4/8

with a duration for the sensor and brain of 4 months.

Or, for a bigger job:

TL Guidance Vol Mass AV MCr   G-Turns Warhead Hits Damage  Range
15 Full-Ind 7   8.48 3  7.434 3/3     500kt   1D6  1/25-79 0

Comm Sensor Signatures     Asset
10L  5P     +4/+3/+4/+3/+1 6/16

This thing has a short range of 150,000km for its PEMS and a maximum of 
1,200,000km and a year's fuel for the fusion plant that powers its 
sensor and brain (the same plant as the little 'um uses, BTW). It has a 
fairly weak motor because it's still got a crappy little EAPlaC solid 
fuel rocket instead of a nice HEPlaR or thruster system. This way it's 
not sensitive to issues version or canon the same way (FWIW).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 06:09:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Aug  6 05:09:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
Message-ID: <200208061208.MEL01964@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>I am of the view that we are not going very far as a species 
>until we manage to get our act together on Earth and solve 
>the seemingly insurmountable problems - of our own doing - 
>facing us. Even interplanetary travel on any significant 
>scale is just not going to happen unless we instigate a 
>paradigm shift in the way we behave towards each other and
>towards life in general. Is it unreasonable to assume that 
>any sentient species that gains control of its environment 
>has to learn to curb exponential growth and a corresponding 
>exponential increase in the demand for resources? Only once 
>this hurdle is overcome will the ability to harness the 
>resources of a single solar system and the ability to travel 
>to other solar systems be developed.

This is the Sagan hypothesis - that sufficiently advanced 
alien life forms will have learned to be "peaceful".  There 
is no reason that this has to be so.  If a warlike species 
came to be dominated by a single high tech faction, through 
limited nuclear war and genocidal action, and used this high 
technology to permanently dominate and subjugate its 
population, it would survive its birth into a nuclear age and 
birth into a starfaring age.

Sufficiently advanced technology makes life on an airless 
rockball possible - why would such a species need to preserve 
its wildlife?  

It is simply not logical to conclude that we must get our act 
together in some peaceful manner.  All that is required is 
that we get our act together - and this could be done today 
by the United States, largely through the use of force.  We 
could solve many problems at once - the population problem, 
the poverty of the third world, the source of most terrorists 
around the world, religions that are inimical to US goals, up 
and coming governments that will consume resources to no good 
end - imagine the tyranny of technological might that could 
annihilate several billion people in a few weeks, and spend 
the world's resources on going to the stars.

A peaceful Sagan-like world that ran across a violent world 
where both were capable of building antimatter rockets would 
be annihilated by the violent world in the time it took for 
the rockets to cross the distance.  The peaceful would die 
with startled looks on their faces as the radars showed the 
near-C projectiles coming in.

Scary, isn't it?  But I think that across the stars, this is 
the far more likely scenario.  Sagan was a dreamer, a wishful 
thinker whose idea of transgression was cheating on his wife.

When I see pictures of children overseas holding AK-47s, I 
see a future where alien races are holding antimatter rockets 
and near-C rocks.  Same picture.  It's not a good idea to 
shout, "Here I am!" in a jungle like that.
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 06:21:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 05:21:04 2002
Subject: [TML] GURPS Interstellar Wars
Message-ID: <20020806.081920.-291705.0.Knightsky@juno.com>

Many of you have probably already run across this, but for those who
haven't, check out Evil Stevie's Daily Illuminator
(http://www.sjgames.com/ill/) for the 8/6/02 entry.


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"




________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 07:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Tue Aug  6 06:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] GURPS Interstellar Wars
In-Reply-To: <20020806.081920.-291705.0.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <000601c23d4f$49ec0330$0b01a8c0@duck>

> Many of you have probably already run across this, but for those who
> haven't, check out Evil Stevie's Daily Illuminator
> (http://www.sjgames.com/ill/) for the 8/6/02 entry.

I hadn't see it yet, but it does sound interesting.  The only thing
I hope is that this doesn't mean they are abandoning their alternate
history.

They have just gotten to the cusp of 1120 and actually having history
move forward.  It will be quite disappointing if instead history just
stops at 1120 as they abandon it for the Interstellar Wars.

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 08:41:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Tue Aug  6 07:41:04 2002
Subject: [TML] The cloak
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D1C@USCHM203>

I once ran through the Maxcy dorm parking lot at USC wearing only sneakers
and a Spuds McKenzie beach towel around my neck (yelling "SCIENCE!" at the
top of my lungs for reasons that now escape me)...does that count as wearing
a cloak? 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 10:11:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Aug  6 09:11:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
In-Reply-To: <3D4F7A61.BA9F032E@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028650204.113.ajackson@ping>

David Shayne writes:

> Standard densities. With Earth = 1. Doesn't look so horibly wrong now
> does it? 

Ok, that's not as bad.  

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 10:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Aug  6 09:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <p0433010cb974db4e1b41@[198.123.22.180]>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028650656.7515.ajackson@ping>

David P. Summers writes:

> You are assuming close packed spheres.

Actually, I'm assuming a flat 'shell' of fighters.  Volume covered is actually
third order in range.
> ground per sensor by moveing around).  Also, If you take sensor input 
> from multiple sensors and combine them, it is possible to generate 
> detection of things that couldn't be detected within the range of 
> anyone sensor.

GURPS doesn't really cover array sensors (if you're going to apply that bit of
realism, there's a lot of other realism tweaks you can make as well), but
interferometry really isn't going to help much with deep space detection, as
(a) it mostly improves resolution, not sensitivity, and (b) it massively
reduces coverage, meaning you're likely to miss objects entirely due to looking
in the wrong direction.
 
>  Lastly, the advantage that a fighter gives only its 
> own position, and not that of the capital ship, if it is caught first 
> is non-trivial

If stealth were particularly meaningful or interesting in space, sure.  In
practice, having multiple small ships just guarantees you'll be spotted, due to
other quirks in the sensor rules.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 10:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Aug  6 09:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020806201901.C28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028651185.1051.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:

> > with the Vehicles system beam weapons in space have no Acc cap,
> 
> However, in the Vehicles rules maximum accuracy bonus is limited to
> Gunnery skill, in this case 25.

Nope, the Vehicles rule is that the Acc bonus is not limited by Gunnery skill.

> How *big* a canister round?
> 
> You need to disable the missiles about 600 miles out, and they will
> probably be approaching from a region 200 miles across at that
> distance.

Huh?  At 600 miles, they're 2 seconds out; assuming 12G missiles, they can
travel up to 240 meters in that time, which means all the missiles need to be
within an area that small.  Assuming a missile is 0.3 meters across, I need to
set up a cloud of about a million objects.  At 300 miles per second, a 1mm
warhead does 6dx110 (which will oneshot missiles), so a 250mm warhead
(equivalent to a single missile) should be able to scatter on the order of 15
million bead, which is plenty to cover the required area at a high level of
reliability.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 10:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 09:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <74.20e88a02.2a814935@aol.com>

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Now that our good news is out in the public, it might be a good time to 
mention
that I've set up a Yahoo! discussion group for current and potential GURPS
Traveller freelancers. The home page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gtfreelance/

This isn't the *only* channel one can use to get information to and from me,
to be sure -- email to jon@sjgames.com works fine too! Still, I hope to use 
the
discussion group to help get news out and to work with authors to plan future
releases. If you're interested in writing for GURPS Traveller, you're more 
than
welcome to sign on.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Now that our good news is out in the public, it might be a good time to mention
<BR>that I've set up a Yahoo! discussion group for current and potential GURPS
<BR>Traveller freelancers. The home page is at:
<BR>
<BR>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gtfreelance/
<BR>
<BR>This isn't the *only* channel one can use to get information to and from me,
<BR>to be sure -- email to jon@sjgames.com works fine too! Still, I hope to use the
<BR>discussion group to help get news out and to work with authors to plan future
<BR>releases. If you're interested in writing for GURPS Traveller, you're more than
<BR>welcome to sign on.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_74.20e88a02.2a814935_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 10:33:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 09:33:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <74.20e88a02.2a814935@aol.com>

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Now that our good news is out in the public, it might be a good time to 
mention
that I've set up a Yahoo! discussion group for current and potential GURPS
Traveller freelancers. The home page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gtfreelance/

This isn't the *only* channel one can use to get information to and from me,
to be sure -- email to jon@sjgames.com works fine too! Still, I hope to use 
the
discussion group to help get news out and to work with authors to plan future
releases. If you're interested in writing for GURPS Traveller, you're more 
than
welcome to sign on.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

--part1_74.20e88a02.2a814935_boundary
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Now that our good news is out in the public, it might be a good time to mention
<BR>that I've set up a Yahoo! discussion group for current and potential GURPS
<BR>Traveller freelancers. The home page is at:
<BR>
<BR>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gtfreelance/
<BR>
<BR>This isn't the *only* channel one can use to get information to and from me,
<BR>to be sure -- email to jon@sjgames.com works fine too! Still, I hope to use the
<BR>discussion group to help get news out and to work with authors to plan future
<BR>releases. If you're interested in writing for GURPS Traveller, you're more than
<BR>welcome to sign on.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_74.20e88a02.2a814935_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 10:36:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 09:36:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <74.20e88a02.2a814935@aol.com>

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Now that our good news is out in the public, it might be a good time to 
mention
that I've set up a Yahoo! discussion group for current and potential GURPS
Traveller freelancers. The home page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gtfreelance/

This isn't the *only* channel one can use to get information to and from me,
to be sure -- email to jon@sjgames.com works fine too! Still, I hope to use 
the
discussion group to help get news out and to work with authors to plan future
releases. If you're interested in writing for GURPS Traveller, you're more 
than
welcome to sign on.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

--part1_74.20e88a02.2a814935_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Now that our good news is out in the public, it might be a good time to mention
<BR>that I've set up a Yahoo! discussion group for current and potential GURPS
<BR>Traveller freelancers. The home page is at:
<BR>
<BR>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gtfreelance/
<BR>
<BR>This isn't the *only* channel one can use to get information to and from me,
<BR>to be sure -- email to jon@sjgames.com works fine too! Still, I hope to use the
<BR>discussion group to help get news out and to work with authors to plan future
<BR>releases. If you're interested in writing for GURPS Traveller, you're more than
<BR>welcome to sign on.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_74.20e88a02.2a814935_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 10:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Aug  6 09:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15E5@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

What about artists?  ;)
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: JFZeigler@aol.com [mailto:JFZeigler@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 8:46 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .


Now that our good news is out in the public, it might be a good time to mention 
that I've set up a Yahoo! discussion group for current and potential GURPS 
Traveller freelancers. The home page is at: 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gtfreelance/ 

This isn't the *only* channel one can use to get information to and from me, 
to be sure -- email to jon@sjgames.com works fine too! Still, I hope to use the 
discussion group to help get news out and to work with authors to plan future 
releases. If you're interested in writing for GURPS Traveller, you're more than 
welcome to sign on. 

---------- 
Jon F. Zeigler 
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller 
jon@sjgames.com 
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events." 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 11:33:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Aug  6 10:33:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The big fleet debate
Message-ID: <20020806173248.66761.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>

>What is the view toward using nukes for point defense?  Is it OK 
>since it is "defensive"?  I think the Imperium wouldn't allow it 
>(why do you have a nuke in the first place?) and it would only
>matter for fleet battles anyway...  So it would come down to any
>agreements, unspoken or otherwise, between the major powers (Impies
>vs Zhos, Impies vs Solos, Hivers vs the K'Kree) and whether it is
>seen as provoking retaliation.

I think you're mixing apples and oranges a little there.  Here are
the categories I see:

I. War between Imperial member states
A. On a world:  Possession or use of nuclear weapons for any purpose
will trigger Imperial intervention.  The underlying reason is that
any use of nuclear weapons, offensive or defensive, will irreparably
harm the world.
B. In space:  Nuclear weapons are allowed, but only limited commerce
raiding is allowed.  

II.  War between the Imperium and another state:  Anything goes, as
there is no general convention on warfare.  The objectives of the
warring parties determine how destructive they will be.  A state
seeking to take territory from another is unlikely to render the
target territory valueless.  A state seeking to create a buffer
between itself and a neighbor may think that a swath of dead and
barren systems is the best defense, but, on the other hand, may think
that thriving, independent systems are better.  

If one state starts destroying the surfaces of another's worlds, it
must accept that the other state will be able to jump past its
defenses and destroy the surface of its worlds as well.  There is
something of a balance of terror among the major states.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 11:40:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Aug  6 10:40:14 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Arbellatra
Message-ID: <20020806173952.59128.qmail@web20418.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Fred Ramen" <von_rammen@msn.com>

>My interpretation may also explain her meteoric rise to high command

>at such a young age--perhaps her title of Grand Admiral of the
>Marches was a ceremonial one, or rank was determined by noble
>standing to a much greater degree in the antebellum Imperium. 
>(Indeed, perhaps Arbellatra reformed the military to make it more
>egalitarian, not only to prevent a rival from rising in a fashion 
>like her own, but to insure loyalty to the Emperor and the Imperium 
>and not the individual commander, as seems to be the case with
>Plankwell and the other Emperors of the Flag.)

A few years ago (maybe more than a few -- I think it was 1996 or so),
I posted an idea to the TML that the antebellum Imperial Navy
followed a feudal model, in which warships, squadrons, and fleets
were in effect fiefs.  The Admiral was also a Duke, and was
responsible for raising the fleet, which meant paying for it.  His or
her Counts were commodores, his Marquises captains, and so on.  Thus
every crew member was a vassal owing loyalty to his or her commanding
officer.  One of Arbellatra's principal reforms was to develop a
professional navy, better suited to defending against ihatei and
Zhodani than fighting over the crown.

--Glenn


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 12:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Aug  6 11:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <20020806180404.28551.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng)

>This probably displays the depths of my ignorance, but can anybody 
>give me a description of how a unit's change of command ceremony
>goes?  I am looking specifically for the US Navy's protocol, but any
>nation or service is welcomed.

I had the good fortune to watch my high school friend Col. Steven R.
Corbett, U.S.A., assume command of the 91st support something or
other brigade at Fort Lewis, Washington, on 14 September 2001.  The
ceremony went something like this:

At the parade ground, seats had been set up under awnings on either
side of the reviewing stand.  The reviewing stand had a podium and
microphone, and there were big speakers somewhere.  

The guests, military and civilian, took seats at their own pace.  The
military personnel were wearing camouflage; the civilians dressed
casually.  I didn't see anyone in a dress uniform that day.  

The members of the brigade formed up in units on the parade ground. 
There were eight or ten units, each with its commanding officer in
front.  There were about 100 people in each unit, suggesting that the
units were companies.  

A mid-level officer (hereinafter the MC) opened the ceremonies by
welcoming everyone and announcing the national anthem.  We stood
while a recording of the national anthem played.  At some point
around then, the color guard marched onto the parade ground from the
audience's left, stopping and facing right at the reviewing stand. 
The colors included the national flag, the brigade's flag, and two
other unit flags (I think of subordinate units within the brigade).  

The base commander had a few remarks to welcome Col. Corbett and wish
the best for his retiring predecessor (whose name I have forgotten). 
The outgoing and incoming commanders then gave brief speeches; I
don't recall who went first.  Then the outgoing commander took the
incoming commander on an inspection of the formation.  They walked
around the entire unit clockwise while martial music played.  No,
they did not play the Liberty Bell March, although those of us in the
audience who had gone to high school together were expecting it.

During the inspection, the MC gave us a little background on the
medieval origins of the inspection.  

When the inspection was completed, the outgoing CO asked Col. Corbett
if he accepted the brigade, and Col. Corbett said that he did.  Then
the brigade's senior NCO and the base commander came out onto the
parade ground and passed the unit flag around as the four of them
stood in a circle.  If I recall correctly, the base commander passed
the flag to the senior NCO, who passed it to the outgoing CO, who
passed it to the new CO, who passed it back to the senior NCO.  The
flagpole crossed each CO's heart, signifying his willingness to give
his life for the unit and to do his utmost for its welfare.  

Then the color guard took back the flags, and the four guys returned
to the reviewing stand.  The base commander had a few closing
remarks, and then they played martial music as the color guard left
the field, followed by each of the other units.  

Then all of the military personnel went back to work.  Early in the
evening, the new CO threw a big barbecue at his house on post, and we
all ate and drank too much.

--Glenn



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 12:50:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Donald McKinney)
Date: Tue Aug  6 11:50:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Cleon V (was Arbellatra)
Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E03668975@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com>

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Actually, much more interesting than Arbellatra, is her direct predecessor, Cleon V.

Cleon V appointed Arbellatra to the troublesome position as Grand Admiral of the Marches, restored Imperial rule over the Sylean Core region, and basically, restored Imperial rule - except that a few Admirals and Nobles weren't ready for it yet, and they betrayed him.

Arbellatra's shoving Gustus off the throne is totally legitimate, as she's simply fulfilling her role as Cleon V's last supporter. 

Interestingly enough, a few years ago I wrote a brief document for my personal use, entertaining the notion that Arbellatra was Cleon V's naval attache, companion and close personal friend, that sending her to the Marches was because he truly felt that the Marches would need the best commander he could send against the Zhodani, and that when Arbellatra returned to the Core, it was all the anger of a lover that pushed her to do it.  I also explained the elevation of Archduke Soegz as the replacement of one of Emperor Joseph's (the man who defeated Cleon V, I hope I'm remembering right) backers...

The minute the Zhodani and Vargr were defeated and capable nobles in place to hold against them (like the Marquis of Regina), she turned her forces around and went back to Core...

I also used a Dreadnought named the "Cleon V" as the Corridor Fleet's flagship :)


DonM.

--__--__--

Message: 8
From: "Fred Ramen" <von_rammen@msn.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 22:03:33 -0400
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra (WAS: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes:

"Dibs Arbellatra.  One of my favorite people in Traveller history.  Someday
I'd love to write a sourcebook for the Arbellatra Regency."

Aye, mine too. Such a book might finally answer the question of just what
kind of leader she was.

IMHO, the model for Arbellatra is Augustus--not Julius--Caesar. That is, she
was more a illiant politician than a brilliant general. I base this on a few
factors:

1) She essentially lost the 2FW but still managed to declare victory and
mobilize the Marches behind her. (Remember, the Imperium ceded territory to
the Zhodani after the war, and Library Data mentions that the final
engagement resulted in a "stalemate" between the two sides. She basically
one the war the same way the U.S. "won" the War of 1812--by not losing as
badly as expected.)

2) It seems doubtful to me that even after a decade of civil war her
provincial fleet could cow the Vland Sector Fleet--yet she must have had the
cooperation of Vland sector, as others have pointed out, in order to
triumph. Again, this demonstrates her political acumen.

3) Her masterly stroke of refusing the crown is remarkably similar to
Augustus' own "retirement" from government--while in truth retaining a firm
grip on the reins of power. (The people of Rome demanded at one point that
he publish a list of candidates he favored, so they would know who to vote
for--not from coercion, but from a devotion to Augustus.)

My interpretation may also explain her meteoric rise to high command at such
a young age--perhaps her title of Grand Admiral of the Marches was a
ceremonial one, or rank was determined by noble standing to a much greater
degree in the antebellum Imperium. (Indeed, perhaps Arbellatra reformed the
military to make it more egalitarian, not only to prevent a rival from
rising in a fashion like her own, but to insure loyalty to the Emperor and
the Imperium and not the individual commander, as seems to be the case with
Plankwell and the other Emperors of the Flag.)

Fred "Arbellatra Divina" Ramen
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 12:51:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Tue Aug  6 11:51:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Landgrab
References: <B9742E4B.68481%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000201c23d7a$64a16b40$b300a8c0@imogen>

Does anyone have (or know of) some software  or  spreadsheet  for
creating ground vehicles using MT rules?  I need to create  about
a dozen different military vehicles for my Efate landgrab.

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 12:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Burns)
Date: Tue Aug  6 11:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
Message-ID: <20020806185605.50939.qmail@web10605.mail.yahoo.com>

I've been following this thread with some interest and
wondering if I should throw in my .02 crimps or not.
The reason for my interest is I'm in a PBEM TNE game
where we were given a few (24 ISTR) mines by our
handlers. So I went here:

http://www.downport.com/bard/bard/bardvera.html

and scrolling down to section 6500 - Satellites
checked out the mines and boosters listed there. I
never thought to check that the design was solid but
it looks good enough.

Anyway, given our mission and limited mines, I'm
thinking we'll use them one of two ways.

First as pursuit deterrents (drop one or two to drift
back along our vector and either the purser takes fire
and/or must manuever around buying us time to get
away. I'm trusting that even if he does spot one a
commander has to assume there may be more, and if one
blows up in his face same thing.

Second as 'debris' around any sensitive sights we find
to secure it till we get back, or to protect our
report drops till they are picked up by the courier,
who will have the disarming codes too.

I'm just getting back into TNE after a lot of years so
I still have to check the sensor rules but at least in
TNE I think spotting these things is going to be very
tough. Unlike GT where it seems you can spot those
nasty c-rocks at a few parsecs while they are ramped
up to speed, note the entry to j-space and be waiting
for the emergence a week later which will also show up
easily, right in the middle of your defence solution.
Oops, a rant? Well at least 'twas short ;)

Dan "far-trader" Burns

______________________________________________________________________ 
Post your ad for free now! http://personals.yahoo.ca

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:02:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:02:04 2002
Subject: [TML] J-4 X-boats, a justification
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEBGILAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Many people argue about many aspects of the X boat system,
saying that there are some less then optimal chooses in it's
makeup.

This is one possible argument in keeping the J-4 aspect to the
system.  The Xboat system is a part of a communication's system
designed with military and official communications in mind.  While
postal unions and private merchants carry cargo of one type or
another as mail, a great deal of information is carried in electronic
form.  Getting information to a patrolling cruisron, informing
a Marine TF that their services are needed, relaying the answer to
a question of Gribble Bugs in the Groats are things that need to
relayed to worlds off the Xboat network.  To do this regular off
the rack Type 's' scouts are employed,  By spacing Xboat stations no more
then jump four apart, a message can be broadcast to all worlds along a
Xboat trunk in one shot.  With communications delays as long as they
are already leaving holes in between xboat stations that require an
extra week or two to reach outlying badly compromised to utility of the
system.

I see an X boat station as a headquarters, a ground based station, the
assigned tenders and Xboats, and a flock of regular scouts assigned to the
station, in theory with enough scout to reach all systems within range in
one
shot, more likely with enough to hit all type C or better ports, important
installations and systems the navy says are likely to hold units on patrol.
At the same time a number of boats also float between systems, trying to
hit all systems or a frequent basis.  these are the boat that are routinely
performing donation studies, re surveys, update investigations and so forth.

these are the boats that are slated to end up in detached scout's hands,
having served as front line scouts then courier scout already.



________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:23:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:23:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Ok, now what
Message-ID: <200208061922.MEZ12591@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

First I keep reading that plasma weapons are not possible - 
the bolt would dissipate a short distance from the barrel.  
And now, at the tail end of the following article, 

http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/channel_awst.jsp?
view=story&id=news/aw080524.xml

I read that a plasma weapon is possible.
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:39:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:39:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <0964D40E.1498BB17.02280B06@aol.com>

Okay, that was strange.

I actually sent three *different* messages to the TML this
morning, and what appeared was three copies of the same
message. Fortunately, that was the only message that
absolutely had to get out, so no harm done. Go figure.

Thanks for your patience, everyone.

---------- 
Jon F. Zeigler 
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller 
jon@sjgames.com 
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:42:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:42:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Airsoft shooter
Message-ID: <B9757480.689C1%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

I need to get educated about airsoft guns.  Any airsoft enthusiasts on the
tml, please contact me off list if you don't mind answering some stupid
questions.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:44:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:44:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra (WAS: warship optimization in traveller
 CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <00fa01c23ced$9eedde60$331df7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020806113510.45efd91c@pop.mindspring.com>

At 10:03 PM 8/5/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes:
>
>"Dibs Arbellatra.  One of my favorite people in Traveller history.  Someday
>I'd love to write a sourcebook for the Arbellatra Regency."
>
>Aye, mine too. Such a book might finally answer the question of just what
>kind of leader she was.

Focusing on Core during the Regency would be a big factor.  Starting at the
refusal of the crown, with pretenders and factions still fighting, to her
gracious assumption of the title of Empress.  A great deal happened in the
seven years between 622 and 629.

>IMHO, the model for Arbellatra is Augustus--not Julius--Caesar. That is, she
>was more a illiant politician than a brilliant general. I base this on a few
>factors:

Good model.  I was thinking a bit of Hitler, personally.  Same kind of
personal magnetism.

>1) She essentially lost the 2FW but still managed to declare victory and
>mobilize the Marches behind her. (Remember, the Imperium ceded territory to
>the Zhodani after the war, and Library Data mentions that the final
>engagement resulted in a "stalemate" between the two sides. She basically
>one the war the same way the U.S. "won" the War of 1812--by not losing as
>badly as expected.)

This might have come from misunderstanding Zhodani war goals.  Arbellatra
probably knew from the start that the Zhodani wanted to remove the Imperium
from Zhodani territory, not destroy the Imperium.  But playing up the image
of the Zho's as barbarians helped her cause.  A draw was as good as a
victory to her.

>2) It seems doubtful to me that even after a decade of civil war her
>provincial fleet could cow the Vland Sector Fleet--yet she must have had the
>cooperation of Vland sector, as others have pointed out, in order to
>triumph. Again, this demonstrates her political acumen.

She had a good line.  In this aspect, she's much like St. Jean d'Arc.  The
"Maid of Mora" driving to restore the Imperium!  She would find ready
converts in Deneb and Corridor. She probably played a different game with
the Vilani.  Promises of increased power in the court, culminating with her
son's marriage to a Vilani noblewoman in 679.  As she drew closer to
Capital, I'm sure that pretender fleets defected en masse rather than face
annihilation.

>3) Her masterly stroke of refusing the crown is remarkably similar to
>Augustus' own "retirement" from government--while in truth retaining a firm
>grip on the reins of power. (The people of Rome demanded at one point that
>he publish a list of candidates he favored, so they would know who to vote
>for--not from coercion, but from a devotion to Augustus.)

It is her that I am of two minds..  I sort of like the idea that she
honestly meant to find a surviving Zhunastu heir; only taking the throne
when that proved impossible.

>My interpretation may also explain her meteoric rise to high command at such
>a young age--perhaps her title of Grand Admiral of the Marches was a
>ceremonial one, or rank was determined by noble standing to a much greater
>degree in the antebellum Imperium. (Indeed, perhaps Arbellatra reformed the
>military to make it more egalitarian, not only to prevent a rival from
>rising in a fashion like her own, but to insure loyalty to the Emperor and
>the Imperium and not the individual commander, as seems to be the case with
>Plankwell and the other Emperors of the Flag.)

"Nothing succeeds like success" they say.  I've always sensed that along
with being politically brilliant, she was possibly the greatest strategic
and tactical mind the Imperium ever saw.  She was only 28 when the war
broke out, according to canon.  I'd prefer to push her date of birth back
to 567, making her 48 at the beginning of the war.  This at least gives her
the age to have had a fairly long career and been at least an experienced
Captain or junior Admiral.  This would, IMHO, make her seizure of the
fleets far more acceptable.  No one is going to listen to a pup of a Ltd.
Commander.

I think the title of Grand Admiral was given to her for no better reason
than she knew how to fight.  Look at all the generals that Lincoln broke
before finding Grant. She demonstrated the ability to win.  Before that,
the post maybe had been more political, but consider the event of the 1FW,
I somehow doubt it.  The Marches had just been cursed with a string of bad
leaders.

Wit my revised birth year, she is now 48 when the 2FW breaks out, 53 when
it ends.  She had to leave before the end of the war, since she defeats
Gustus in 622.  Have her, and a small fleet leave in late 618, leaving the
war to a trusted group of under commanders.  The history is murky here.
Perhaps the Zhodani were broken by mid-618, and the last ~18 months were
mopping up and retaking worlds?

She arrives in the Core no later than early 621, when a large armada. Along
the way, she defeats several pretenders, and forces a battle with Gustus at
the Second Battle of Zhimaway.  Proceeding to Capital, she declares herself
regent in late 622, at the age of 55.  Becomes Empress in 629 at 62, Dies
in 666 at 99.  Marries late, first son born in 624.

Does this time line work for people?
-- 

Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.
gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html

Author of GT: Ground Forces                               

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:45:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:45:49 2002
Subject: [TML] GURPS Interstellar Wars
In-Reply-To: <20020806.081920.-291705.0.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020806113717.35e7dade@pop.mindspring.com>

At 08:19 AM 8/6/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>Many of you have probably already run across this, but for those who
>haven't, check out Evil Stevie's Daily Illuminator
>(http://www.sjgames.com/ill/) for the 8/6/02 entry.

Note to self:  Check the author solicitation page when the good computer
gets home today...

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:47:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:47:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNGEMBEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <3.0.5.16.20020805112347.358f6ef0@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020806114206.364f75c8@pop.mindspring.com>

At 08:57 PM 8/5/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>>Here's a fun game to play if you have Ground Forces.  You are a Force
>>Lieutenant assigned to a Caen-class ship.  You are lying in your bunk, and
>>feeling a bit peckish.  How do you get to the officer's mess?  :)

>Let me start by saying I absolutely love 95% of Ground Forces. I think the
>colors great. I like everything from the unit structure information, to the
>battledress designs, to the modular grav design system.

Thanks, and a tip'o the helmet to David Pulver for the MVD system.

>The one thing I can't stand is the ship designs. I loath the Caen. Among
>other problems: Where are the navy ratings bunked? They certainly wouldn't
>be with the Marines, not since the rest of canon says that they should be
>living in staterooms, which I would suppose are separate from the officer's
>staterooms. I could go on and on about the failings of the design, but I
>don't want to rant.

I have problems with the Caen deckplans myself.  It was designed as a very
"close" ship, and I did put in that the rest of the Navy thinks the crews
that work the Caens are oddballs.  If you have an improved design, I'd love
to see it.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:49:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:49:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15E5@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020806114452.35e793a8@pop.mindspring.com>

At 09:43 AM 8/6/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>What about artists?  ;)

Back in your hole, polygon boy!  When we want something from you, we'll do
the usual thing.  Toss a contract and art specs in your cage and pray you
don't ruin our finely crafted prose with your "art."

:)
-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of
limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:50:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:50:57 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  The cloak
In-Reply-To: <20020806004801.59831.qmail@web20422.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020806114720.4637dd7c@pop.mindspring.com>

At 05:48 PM 8/5/2002 -0700, you wrote:

>ca. 1100s, they are in fashion at the Imperial court, and therefore
>commonly worn by nobles everywhere.  Commoners only wear them when
>the weather demands it.

I'd think that fashion would trickle down, and you see knock-offs of famous
designers and K-Martish places with their own lines.

IMTU, they're common.  Useful things, cloaks.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:52:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:52:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
In-Reply-To: <159.120df85e.2a809f36@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020806115248.35e748b0@pop.mindspring.com>

At 11:40 PM 8/5/2002 EDT, you wrote:

>I would agree.  But as you will observe in Afghanistan (and arguably Serbia) 
>they did it by putting someone else's young men into the mud -- and not all 
>that many of those.  I seem to remember something along those lines in 
>Gibbons ....

That army was just laying there...

Seriously, from our point of view, Afghanistan was as close to a perfect
situation as you can get.  All we had to do was provide air & logisitcal
support, and the population in the are being attacked wasn't too thrilled
with the current government.  They all aren't going to be that way.
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:53:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:53:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <20020806021137.13bb35092d5d49ae9344179b452c1788.in@keywest
 .kennett.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020806120321.46dfdc16@pop.mindspring.com>

At 02:13 AM 8/6/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>Hi,
>
>This probably displays the depths of my ignorance, but can anybody give me a
>description of how a unit's change of command ceremony goes?  I am looking
>specifically for the US Navy's protocol, but any nation or service is
welcomed.

Well, from my point of view, an Army change of command ceremony (c. 1985)
consists of the following:

1. Polish brass.

2. Drop off dress greens at dry cleaners.

3. Hear that the order has been changed, we'll be in battle gear.

4. Curse about blowing $15 on dry cleaning.

5. Drop off good BDUs at dry cleaners.  (Good meaning these puppies will
never see the field, and are worn only for inspections.)

6. Pay some kid at the PX ten bucks to spit shine my jump boots.

7. Run to Ranger Joe's for clean TA-50 pieces.

8. Get haircut.

9. Practise marching.

10. Get assigned to be a roadgaurd again, due to lack of marching ability.

11. Get inspected.

12. March to Brigade parade ground.

13. Stand in formation.

14. Old Bastard makes a speech.

15. Wonder what difference all this marching will make when the Soviets
come over the border.

16. Something involving the unit colors, but you can't see.

17. New Bastard makes a speech.  Officers love to make speeches.

18. Fall asleep at attention.

19. Wake up at Parade Rest.

20. March back to barracks, replace dart board picture of Old Bastard with
New Bastard, get drunk.

(I'm in a silly mood today.)
-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Animals who are not penguins can only wish they were.
-Chicago reader, 10/15/82

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:55:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas E. Berry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:55:14 2002
Subject: [TML] The cloak
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D1C@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.16.20020806120600.46dfd798@pop.mindspring.com>

At 10:40 AM 8/6/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>I once ran through the Maxcy dorm parking lot at USC wearing only sneakers
>and a Spuds McKenzie beach towel around my neck (yelling "SCIENCE!" at the
>top of my lungs for reasons that now escape me)...does that count as wearing
>a cloak? 

No, but it will count against you at the commitment hearing...
-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"Genetically" we are nearly identical to fruit flies.  On the
other hand, as a species we write better string quartets. 
				- Rich Clancey


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:57:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:57:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <2BD831D2.5F2F4C54.02280B06@aol.com>

> What about artists?  ;)

Hey, Jesse. Artists are more than welcome to join the
Yahoo! group too, although you should be aware that art
is Not My Department. Any queries about art for the GT
line will probably end up being passed along to other
people at SJG.

---------- 
Jon F. Zeigler 
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller 
jon@sjgames.com 
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 13:59:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Aug  6 12:59:11 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
References: <200208061208.MEL01964@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D50270F.5080001@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:

> This is the Sagan hypothesis - that sufficiently advanced 
> alien life forms will have learned to be "peaceful".  There 
> is no reason that this has to be so.  If a warlike species 
> came to be dominated by a single high tech faction, through 
> limited nuclear war and genocidal action, and used this high 
> technology to permanently dominate and subjugate its 
> population, it would survive its birth into a nuclear age and 
> birth into a starfaring age.

Give the history of such factions here, I rather doubt that this is the 
case. If these sentients are anything like humans, they do not have the 
infinite capacity for evil you presuppose.

Humans have proven to be very good at routing around opression, and 
eroding it from it's weak points.

Even the total police states of Romania and East Germany fell, sometimes 
in a matter of *weeks*, once the Soviet threat was shown to be hollow. 
As brutal as the Sucuritat was, and the fact htat they had pretty much 
co-opted the entire Romanian population into their web of informants, 
they dissolved into a scattering of scared bullies, trying to outrun the 
lynch mobs.

Rome *was* a high-tech faction that ruled through genocidal action (when 
needed) It's hegemony lasted only a few hundred years, and then only 
over a rather small area of the world.

Your *perfect evil dictator* is unlikely to ever exist. Whilst they 
might make for pretty tale in SF novels, the history of our planet 
towards such hegemony does not support this.

High-tech communications almost guarantees this...look at the struggles 
opressive regimes here have with the now humble fax machine, let alone 
the internet.

A regime that had such total control over information would unlikely be 
able to manage the technologicical advances needed to get much beyond LEO.

You cannot simultaneously restrict the flow of information and maintain 
a growing 'research economy', any more than you can manage a monetaryu 
economy the same way. (The other reason the Soviets fell)

After all, who won the race to the moon?

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:01:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (markc@peak.org)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:01:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <18690-22002826195016420@M2W075.mail2web.com>

Jesse DeGraff <Jesse=2EDeGraff@netapp=2Ecom> writes:

> What about artists?  ;)

Sure, why not?  Do you know any? >^)

    - Mark C=2E

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:03:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:03:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15EC@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

No more grav tanks you Penguin Boy ;)

And that should read:
"When we want something from you, we'll do the usual thing.  *At the last minute,* toss a contract and, *if you're lucky*, art specs in your cage and pray you don't ruin our finely crafted prose with your "art."

Jesse


-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas E. Berry [mailto:gridlore@pop.mindspring.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 4:45 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .


At 09:43 AM 8/6/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>What about artists?  ;)

Back in your hole, polygon boy!  When we want something from you, we'll do
the usual thing.  Toss a contract and art specs in your cage and pray you
don't ruin our finely crafted prose with your "art."

:)
-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of
limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:06:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:06:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15EE@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Gee, ALL the clowns are coming out of the woodwork ;)  BTW, is the December shoot going to happen?
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: markc@peak.org [mailto:markc@peak.org]
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 12:50 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .


Jesse DeGraff <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> writes:

> What about artists?  ;)

Sure, why not?  Do you know any? >^)

    - Mark C.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:08:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:08:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020806120321.46dfdc16@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020806200438.2448.qmail@web11004.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
wrote:
> At 02:13 AM 8/6/2002 -0400, you wrote:
> >Hi,
> >
> >This probably displays the depths of my ignorance,
> but can anybody give me a
> >description of how a unit's change of command
> ceremony goes?  I am looking
> >specifically for the US Navy's protocol, but any
> nation or service is
> welcomed.
> 
> Well, from my point of view, an Army change of
> command ceremony (c. 1985)
> consists of the following:
> 
> 1. Polish brass.
> 
> 2. Drop off dress greens at dry cleaners.
> 
> 3. Hear that the order has been changed, we'll be in
> battle gear.
> 
> 4. Curse about blowing $15 on dry cleaning.
> 
> 5. Drop off good BDUs at dry cleaners.  (Good
> meaning these puppies will
> never see the field, and are worn only for
> inspections.)
> 
> 6. Pay some kid at the PX ten bucks to spit shine my
> jump boots.
> 
> 7. Run to Ranger Joe's for clean TA-50 pieces.
> 
> 8. Get haircut.
> 
> 9. Practise marching.
> 
> 10. Get assigned to be a roadgaurd again, due to
> lack of marching ability.
> 
> 11. Get inspected.
> 
> 12. March to Brigade parade ground.
> 
> 13. Stand in formation.
> 
> 14. Old Bastard makes a speech.
> 
> 15. Wonder what difference all this marching will
> make when the Soviets
> come over the border.
> 
> 16. Something involving the unit colors, but you
> can't see.
> 
> 17. New Bastard makes a speech.  Officers love to
> make speeches.
> 
> 18. Fall asleep at attention.
> 
> 19. Wake up at Parade Rest.
> 
> 20. March back to barracks, replace dart board
> picture of Old Bastard with
> New Bastard, get drunk.
> 
> (I'm in a silly mood today.)
> -- 
> 
> Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
>   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
> 
  >>
  Yeah....but your memory is about as good as mine. 

  OTOH, if it wasn't for my dazzling marching skills,
I'd have never gotten out of so much work.....that,
and the fact that I jumped to voluteer for it, knowing
in advance that selections were being made for mess
duty that day.......

  Michael "Hide & Slide" Cessna
  Box-kicker Supreme
  >>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:14:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:14:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020806113510.45efd91c@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <3.0.5.16.20020806113510.45efd91c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m3u1m7oie8.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes:

> She was only 28 when the war broke out, according to canon.  I'd
> prefer to push her date of birth back to 567, making her 48 at the
> beginning of the war.  This at least gives her the age to have had a
> fairly long career and been at least an experienced Captain or
> junior Admiral.  This would, IMHO, make her seizure of the fleets
> far more acceptable.  No one is going to listen to a pup of a Ltd.
> Commander.

They will if she's That Good.  Perhaps in the IN of the time,
midshipmen were inducted at 13.  Also, recall that we're talking about
the military of a feudal state; if one shows great promise, there's no
inherent reason one might not rise _very_ quickly.  Same if one's the
girlfriend of an Emperor...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Digital files cannot be made uncopyable, any more than water can be made
not wet.                   --Bruce Schneier on `copy protection' schemes

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:23:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:23:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <20020806173248.66761.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020806173248.66761.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p04330104b975de6771f8@[143.232.119.186]>

At 10:32 AM -0700 8/6/02, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>I. War between Imperial member states
>A. On a world:  Possession or use of nuclear weapons for any purpose
>will trigger Imperial intervention.  The underlying reason is that
>any use of nuclear weapons, offensive or defensive, will irreparably
>harm the world.
>B. In space:  Nuclear weapons are allowed, but only limited commerce
>raiding is allowed.

Isn't the _possession_ of nuke illegal (the Traveller Adventure has 
nuke anti-ship missils as being illegal).  That is what I would do, 
since I'm not sure you want anyone to be in a postion to nuke a 
planet....

>II.  War between the Imperium and another state:  Anything goes, as
>there is no general convention on warfare.  The objectives of the
>warring parties determine how destructive they will be.  A state
>seeking to take territory from another is unlikely to render the
>target territory valueless.  A state seeking to create a buffer
>between itself and a neighbor may think that a swath of dead and
>barren systems is the best defense, but, on the other hand, may think
>that thriving, independent systems are better.

Of course limited by unspoken agreements and threats of retaliation.

>
>If one state starts destroying the surfaces of another's worlds, it
>must accept that the other state will be able to jump past its
>defenses and destroy the surface of its worlds as well.  There is
>something of a balance of terror among the major states.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:24:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:24:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15E5@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15E5@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <p04330105b975df61ad02@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:43 AM -0700 8/6/02, DeGraff, Jesse wrote:
>What about artists?  ;)
>Jesse


Do you have any experience?  :-)
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:31:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff D. Greenly)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:31:18 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <sd4ff8f8.002@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>

Keeping in mind that it's been a while...

A Naval change of command reflects the fact that the Captain of the
vessel/unit/whatever IS the vessel/unit/whatever. So, the departing
officer is "piped aboard" to the podium and announced as "<Unit Name>,
arriving" He gives his speech to the hands, then the ship's bell is rung
(even in a land station) and he is "piped over the side" and announced
by his name and rank. The new officer goes through the same thing in
reverse. He/She is announced by name and rank, gives a speech, then is
announced as "<unit name>, departing" and the ships bell is rung. There
are a bunch of salutes and "permission to come aboard, sirs" and so on,
but the one essential fact to remember is that the new and old
commmanding officers are changing their identities. "USS Rochester,
Arriving" goes back to being Commander Schmuck, USN, and Commander
Foobar becomes "USS Rochester" Just as a interesting side note, they've
been doing an abbreviated form of this aboard the Space Station,
although it's not really a change of command. There's a ship's bell on
board and it's rung when the Shuttle docks up or breaks away with the
announcement "<ShuttleName>, Arriving (or Departing)" 

I think that because the Imperial Navy has such a long history, it
probably has a lot of cool traditions. Anything that you threw in for
color, like Marines in some traditional dress uniforms standing behind
the "quarterdeck", the transfer of a baton, staff or whistle, maybe a
reading of the ship's history...

Jeff

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:36:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:36:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra (WAS: warship optimization in traveller
 CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020806113510.45efd91c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208061330150.8694-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 6 Aug 2002, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> >IMHO, the model for Arbellatra is Augustus--not Julius--Caesar. That is, she
> >was more a illiant politician than a brilliant general. I base this on a few
> >factors:

Please don't make her so much of a hypocritical prig.

> Good model.  I was thinking a bit of Hitler, personally.  Same kind of
> personal magnetism.

EEK!!!  But I like Arbellatra!

> >1) She essentially lost the 2FW but still managed to declare victory and
> >mobilize the Marches behind her. (Remember, the Imperium ceded territory to
> >the Zhodani after the war, and Library Data mentions that the final
> >engagement resulted in a "stalemate" between the two sides. She basically
> >one the war the same way the U.S. "won" the War of 1812--by not losing as
> >badly as expected.)
> 
> This might have come from misunderstanding Zhodani war goals.  Arbellatra
> probably knew from the start that the Zhodani wanted to remove the Imperium
> from Zhodani territory, not destroy the Imperium.  But playing up the image
> of the Zho's as barbarians helped her cause.  A draw was as good as a
> victory to her.

Ah, yes.

> >2) It seems doubtful to me that even after a decade of civil war her
> >provincial fleet could cow the Vland Sector Fleet--yet she must have had the
> >cooperation of Vland sector, as others have pointed out, in order to
> >triumph. Again, this demonstrates her political acumen.
> 
> She had a good line.  In this aspect, she's much like St. Jean d'Arc.  The
> "Maid of Mora" driving to restore the Imperium!  She would find ready
> converts in Deneb and Corridor. She probably played a different game with
> the Vilani.  Promises of increased power in the court, culminating with her
> son's marriage to a Vilani noblewoman in 679.  As she drew closer to
> Capital, I'm sure that pretender fleets defected en masse rather than face
> annihilation.

I like Arbellatra la Pucelle much better than Arbellatra as Hitler.

> It is her that I am of two minds..  I sort of like the idea that she
> honestly meant to find a surviving Zhunastu heir; only taking the throne
> when that proved impossible.

I do, too.

> I think the title of Grand Admiral was given to her for no better reason
> than she knew how to fight.  

Amen!
 
> She arrives in the Core no later than early 621, when a large armada. Along
> the way, she defeats several pretenders, and forces a battle with Gustus at
> the Second Battle of Zhimaway.  Proceeding to Capital, she declares herself
> regent in late 622, at the age of 55.  Becomes Empress in 629 at 62, Dies
> in 666 at 99.  Marries late, first son born in 624.
> 
> Does this time line work for people?

It will for me.

Kiri :)
**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 14:55:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Tue Aug  6 13:55:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra (WAS: warship optimization in traveller
 CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020806113510.45efd91c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208061330150.8694-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 6 Aug 2002, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> >IMHO, the model for Arbellatra is Augustus--not Julius--Caesar. That is, she
> >was more a illiant politician than a brilliant general. I base this on a few
> >factors:

Please don't make her so much of a hypocritical prig.

> Good model.  I was thinking a bit of Hitler, personally.  Same kind of
> personal magnetism.

EEK!!!  But I like Arbellatra!

> >1) She essentially lost the 2FW but still managed to declare victory and
> >mobilize the Marches behind her. (Remember, the Imperium ceded territory to
> >the Zhodani after the war, and Library Data mentions that the final
> >engagement resulted in a "stalemate" between the two sides. She basically
> >one the war the same way the U.S. "won" the War of 1812--by not losing as
> >badly as expected.)
> 
> This might have come from misunderstanding Zhodani war goals.  Arbellatra
> probably knew from the start that the Zhodani wanted to remove the Imperium
> from Zhodani territory, not destroy the Imperium.  But playing up the image
> of the Zho's as barbarians helped her cause.  A draw was as good as a
> victory to her.

Ah, yes.

> >2) It seems doubtful to me that even after a decade of civil war her
> >provincial fleet could cow the Vland Sector Fleet--yet she must have had the
> >cooperation of Vland sector, as others have pointed out, in order to
> >triumph. Again, this demonstrates her political acumen.
> 
> She had a good line.  In this aspect, she's much like St. Jean d'Arc.  The
> "Maid of Mora" driving to restore the Imperium!  She would find ready
> converts in Deneb and Corridor. She probably played a different game with
> the Vilani.  Promises of increased power in the court, culminating with her
> son's marriage to a Vilani noblewoman in 679.  As she drew closer to
> Capital, I'm sure that pretender fleets defected en masse rather than face
> annihilation.

I like Arbellatra la Pucelle much better than Arbellatra as Hitler.

> It is her that I am of two minds..  I sort of like the idea that she
> honestly meant to find a surviving Zhunastu heir; only taking the throne
> when that proved impossible.

I do, too.

> I think the title of Grand Admiral was given to her for no better reason
> than she knew how to fight.  

Amen!
 
> She arrives in the Core no later than early 621, when a large armada. Along
> the way, she defeats several pretenders, and forces a battle with Gustus at
> the Second Battle of Zhimaway.  Proceeding to Capital, she declares herself
> regent in late 622, at the age of 55.  Becomes Empress in 629 at 62, Dies
> in 666 at 99.  Marries late, first son born in 624.
> 
> Does this time line work for people?

It will for me.

Kiri :)
**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 15:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Tue Aug  6 14:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com> <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net> <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <20020805075953.A24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <3436.64.8.3.28.1028520584.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <20020805215043.E25687@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3D4F3B54.62F77189@mindspring.com>

Timothy Little wrote:
> 
> hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> > There is always the ability to design bigger and faster missiles using
> > GURPS VEHICLES and the guidelines presented with TRAVELLER itself.
> 
> Yes, that's what I'm wondering about.  Do I want to design better
> weapons and tactics for my Traveller game, at the expense of making it
> less like Traveller?  Or do I try to rationalise the existing ones to
> maintain compatibility with what other people have done?
> 
> >  A friend of mine created an inertial guided missile that removes
> > the explosive warhead from the missile and turned it into a kinetic
> > kill device.
> 
> Yes; either remove the chemical warhead or replace it with a fusion
> warhead.  A chemical explosive makes little sense.  Even the standard
> missiles accelerate to 72 km/s in the first round -- putting a
> chemical explosive in them is a bit like putting a spring-loaded
> boxing glove on an anti-tank penetrator.

I always considered the HE as essentially a frag grenade for ships. A
small cloud of debris having a better chance to hit. 

> 
> > The missile frigate then starts a high speed run against the
> > intended target and launches its missiles outside of sensor range of
> > an enemy ship.
> 
> That works under the standard rules, too.  I've had vague thoughts in
> the same direction, but didn't actually get round to testing them.
> 
> > Do the math and see how much damage a single missile moving at 90
> > hexes per turn does ;)

Thanks for a nasty tactic. The Forinians IMMTU are going to be using
that. I was going to have to bring in more help. I think it will be
quite a suprise to my players.



-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline. It
helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear
weapons, but the very least you need a beer.
         - Frank Zappa


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 16:14:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Aug  6 15:14:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The big fleet debate
Message-ID: <20020806220841.64120.qmail@web20417.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>

>>B. In space:  Nuclear weapons are allowed, but only limited
commerce
>>raiding is allowed.
>
>Isn't the _possession_ of nuke illegal (the Traveller Adventure has 
>nuke anti-ship missils as being illegal).  That is what I would do, 
>since I'm not sure you want anyone to be in a postion to nuke a 
>planet....

That is certainly a workable approach.  The Imperium has to balance
removing the most effective anti-ship weapons from their law-abiding
merchants against the risk of misuse of those weapons (under many
very easy to effectuate scenarios) against worlds.  

--Glenn


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 16:21:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Aug  6 15:21:11 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <20020806221929.46060.qmail@web20418.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Jeff D. Greenly" <jgreenly@hsc.wvu.edu>
>
>I think that because the Imperial Navy has such a long history, it
>probably has a lot of cool traditions. Anything that you threw in
for
>color, like Marines in some traditional dress uniforms standing 
>behind the "quarterdeck", the transfer of a baton, staff or whistle,
>maybe a reading of the ship's history...

Definitely make up some cool stuff and tell us about it!  Don't
forget to include weird stuff that comes out of the Vilani
traditions, too.

--Glenn



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 16:25:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Tue Aug  6 15:25:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
References: <20020806021137.13bb35092d5d49ae9344179b452c1788.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <3D504BD3.B4316290@mindspring.com>

Cheng Tseng wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> This probably displays the depths of my ignorance, but can anybody give me a
> description of how a unit's change of command ceremony goes?  I am looking
> specifically for the US Navy's protocol, but any nation or service is welcomed.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> C.T.

From my experience of five change of command ceremonies. Two at
pierside*
Enlisted are taken out of their workspaces and put into the most
uncomfortable uniform and put at ease in the sun, usually on asphalt or
concrete. *Or a steel deck if available. 
After an interminable wait some O's come out and congratulate each other
on what fine people they are and what a good job they've done and are
going to do. 
Then the enlisted are sent back to work and the O's have a party.

-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
If you can't convince them, confuse them.
                -Harry S. Truman

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 16:33:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fred Ramen)
Date: Tue Aug  6 15:33:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
Message-ID: <003401c23d98$a70d8680$da29f7a5@pctframen>

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>

>>"Nothing succeeds like success" they say.  I've always sensed that along
with being politically brilliant, she was possibly the greatest strategic
and tactical mind the Imperium ever saw.  She was only 28 when the war
broke out, according to canon.  I'd prefer to push her date of birth back
to 567, making her 48 at the beginning of the war.  This at least gives her
the age to have had a fairly long career and been at least an experienced
Captain or junior Admiral.  This would, IMHO, make her seizure of the
fleets far more acceptable.  No one is going to listen to a pup of a Ltd.
Commander.<<

I'm probably in a tiny minority here, but I remain unconvinced about
Arbellatra's strategic brilliance. Certainly her conduct of the 2FW does not
seem to have a personal stamp upon it the way Norris' saving strategy in the
5FW does. Canonical info on the war is spotty, of course, but it is
described as a "holding action" accompanied by commerce raids. When the
dreadnoughts are finally constructed, Arbellatra does not lead them on a
reconquest of the Marches, but merely forces a stalemate...and then promptly
concedes territory to the Zhodani, as well as separating several other
worlds from the Imperium. Compare Norris, who does in fact lead a reconquest
that restores the status quo antebellum, as well as changing the strategic
makeup of the states in the Marches in the Imperium's favor.

>>I think the title of Grand Admiral was given to her for no better reason
than she knew how to fight.  Look at all the generals that Lincoln broke
before finding Grant. She demonstrated the ability to win.  Before that,
the post maybe had been more political, but consider the event of the 1FW,
I somehow doubt it.  The Marches had just been cursed with a string of bad
leaders.<<

Yes, but in the canonical timeline she is simply too young, and Cleon V is
around for too short a time for this to work. (He rules for three years, the
first of which is the first year of the 2FW; this would imply that
Arbellatra could not have been appointed by him prior to 616 or so, unless
she was already known to him for some reason.)

I myself like the idea that the Alikhalikoi family were prominent supporters
of Cleon's faction, or perhaps loyalists who resisted Olav. They may have
been pretenders to a duchy in the Marches, or had had their title revoked.
What may have happened is that an older member of the Alikhalikoi family was
actually appointed by Cleon, but due to death or other happenstance was
unable to actually serve. Arbellatra was then chosen because she was the
least controversial candidate--her family had the commission, she was the
heir, and her youth would allow her to be manipulated by the other nobles.
Her brilliance was that she ended up dominating them. (To bring in Doug's
Hitler analogy, compare the way the right wing thought they would dominate
Hitler in 1933. Or how Lincoln routinely outmanuevered his cabinet members
political ambition.)

>>Wit my revised birth year, she is now 48 when the 2FW breaks out, 53 when
it ends.  She had to leave before the end of the war, since she defeats
Gustus in 622.  Have her, and a small fleet leave in late 618, leaving the
war to a trusted group of under commanders.  The history is murky here.
Perhaps the Zhodani were broken by mid-618, and the last ~18 months were
mopping up and retaking worlds?

She arrives in the Core no later than early 621, when a large armada. Along
the way, she defeats several pretenders, and forces a battle with Gustus at
the Second Battle of Zhimaway.  Proceeding to Capital, she declares herself
regent in late 622, at the age of 55.  Becomes Empress in 629 at 62, Dies
in 666 at 99.  Marries late, first son born in 624.<<

I have no problem with this as an alternate timeline. I guess my point is
merely that this kind of surgery is necessary to produce Arbellatra the
Conqueror. Canon allows for a different picture to be read between the
lines, IMHO. To bring back Augustus, Arbellatra may have succeeded in
keeping the throne because, like Octavian, she was just enough of a general
to have won the war but obviously not some one who could only rule by virtue
of the sword. That is, as an UNprofessional Admiral, she would have the
support of a populace thoroughly sick of what the professional soldiers had
been doing for twenty years.

All IMHO, YMMV, IANAGD, etc.

Fred Ramen


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 16:33:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug  6 15:33:28 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1028651185.1051.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020806201901.C28821@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1028651185.1051.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020807082917.A30389@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Nope, the Vehicles rule is that the Acc bonus is not limited by
> Gunnery skill.

Where does it say that?  I must have missed it :/


> Huh?  At 600 miles, they're 2 seconds out; assuming 12G missiles,
> they can travel up to 240 meters in that time, which means all the
> missiles need to be within an area that small.

You're assuming the missiles only use their thrusters transversely in
the last 2 seconds, which is what I (as attacker) would want you to
think ;)


Consider the trajectories of a salvo of missiles that initially
accelerate at just under 12G for two turns, aimed up to 11 degrees
away from the victim (it works out to 11.8G minimum axial component).
They all choose a different off-axis direction within that cone, and
maintain the same axial component of acceleration.

Then they all use up to 7G of transverse acceleration for two more
turns to curve back in toward the victim while still maintaining more
than 9G axial component (actually up to 9.7G).

All their trajectories pass through the victim with a forward
component of 42 hexes per turn, but their sideways component varies by
up to 14 hexes per turn in random directions.

Oops, that means I miscalculated earlier.  At 600 miles range the
region of incoming missiles has a *radius* of 200 miles, for a
diameter of 400 miles.  Better multiply the canister mass by 4.

As an aside, if we're using Vehicles to calculate impactor damage,
then the incoming missiles do more than four times as damage when they
hit (average 6dx19700(5) each) than they do in GURPS Traveller
(6dx4300(5) each).


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 16:43:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue Aug  6 15:43:04 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
In-Reply-To: <006301c23ce3$2bcea180$eeb18b90@computer>
References: <006301c23ce3$2bcea180$eeb18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <3d50427f.7657767@post.demon.co.uk>

"Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com> writes:

>The counter mix from Invasion Earth might be worth studying.

There aren't any TL15 units on either side. =20

The Imperial Marines are 78% TL14 (1 division, 3 regiments) plus 2 IM
regiments at TL12 and TL13.

The Imperial regular army is 70% TL14, 20% TL13, 10% TL12.

Imperial colonial forces (which account for about 30% of the total
Imperial strength) are TL11 - TL14, with TL12 being the norm.

Solomani regular troops are 43% TL14, 42% TL 13, 11% TL12 and 4% TL11.
The local Terran guerrillas are all TL 13.

Stephen
(Incidentally, I remember there being a single 1-point TL 16 unit in
=46FW, which I always assumed to be the player characters!)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 16:43:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Aug  6 15:43:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
References: <003401c23d98$a70d8680$da29f7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <3D5050EB.9050601@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Fred Ramen wrote:

> I'm probably in a tiny minority here, but I remain unconvinced about
> Arbellatra's strategic brilliance. Certainly her conduct of the 2FW does not
> seem to have a personal stamp upon it the way Norris' saving strategy in the
> 5FW does. Canonical info on the war is spotty, of course, but it is
> described as a "holding action" accompanied by commerce raids. When the
> dreadnoughts are finally constructed, Arbellatra does not lead them on a
> reconquest of the Marches, but merely forces a stalemate...and then promptly
> concedes territory to the Zhodani, as well as separating several other
> worlds from the Imperium. 

Probably this is because she knows she needs to a) bring an end ASAP to 
the 2FW, and b) She needs those Dreadnaughts to end the rebellion, 
rather than throwing them into a likely bloody fight to beat the Zhodani 
back.

The Zho's, being in an expansionist mood at the moment, are only too 
happy to help her achieve her goals.

Her goal was not to *win* the 2FW, but to *end* it with enough power and 
fleets strength to go fight the REAL battle, that of re-unifying the 
Imperium.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 16:43:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Tue Aug  6 15:43:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Aircraft carrier displacement
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D0D@USCHM203>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D0D@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <3d514ac0.9770968@post.demon.co.uk>

"Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> writes:

>	5 tons gross ship displacement(in today's nautical terms)=3D1
>displacement ton in Traveller.

On that basis, then:

Battleship HMS Victory (TL3) 2164 tons =3D just over 400 dtons (the size
of a patrol cruiser)
=46rigate USS Constitution (TL3) 1576 tons =3D 300 dtons
=46rigate HMS Warrior (TL4) 9137 tons =3D 1800 dtons
Monitor USS Monitor (TL4) 987 tons =3D 200 dtons (a free trader)
Typical Spanish or Portuguese ship from the age of exploration,
15th/16th century (TL2) 80 tons =3D 16 dtons.  (Magellan or Columbus
would have thought a Caen-class marine dropship's bunkroom
accommodation to be sheer luxury...)

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 17:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Aug  6 16:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <m3y9bqqsbp.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20806.152713.5c8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:
>> 
>> We extend POW's and noncombatants a certain amount of "courtesy" and
>> expect the same from our enemies.  Our culture (at least for now)
>> calls for this courtesy to be extended even if it is not returned.
>
> IMHO civilian opinion that's foolish.  The deal should be play by our
> rules or we play by none.  That is, we'll refrain from using NBC
> weapons, we'll take prisoners, we'll treat them right, we'll avoid
> hitting civilians for exactly so long as the other side does.  If they
> don't, then we don't; instead we run up the black flag and fight
> dirty.  It's not as though they'd retaliate by fighting dirty; they
> already do.

Thing is, we've already set the precedent that failing to abide by the
rules during a war will get those responsible tried as *criminals*
after the war. 

And yes, we were rather hypocritical in that we should have tried the
people on our own side who were responsible for things like Dresden.

We *do* have the stated policy of responding to use of weapons of mass
destruction with weapons of mass destruction. And we carefully avoid
stating that we will retaliate "in kind". Odds are that we'd respond to
bioagents with nukes, simply because have nukes, and frankly they are a
hell of a lot *safer* for all concerned. 

Chemical attacks I'm not sure. 

But shooting prisoners or mistreating them is against our *laws*. Which
is one reason why a number of folks are more that a bit upswet about
the fact that at the current time we are *violating* our own laws when
it comes to the people taken prisoner in Afghanistan and held at
Guantanamo Bay. They haven't been accorded prisoner of war status, nor
have they been classified as criminals awaiting trial.

We are damaging our own legal system *badly* by doing this. And that
and other similar things we are doing are actually more apt to destroy
the US than the actions of the terrorists!

If we can't follow our own laws except when it is convenient, we are
all at the mercy of anybody in a position of authorty.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 17:33:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 16:33:12 2002
Subject: [TML] army usage
Message-ID: <a6.2a3d2ddd.2a81b626@aol.com>

 >>I would agree.  But as you will observe in Afghanistan (and arguably 
Serbia) 
 >>they did it by putting someone else's young men into the mud -- and not 
all 
 >>that many of those.  I seem to remember something along those lines in 
 >>Gibbons ....
 >
 >That army was just laying there...

I was thinking of Rome's extensive use of auxiliaries and allies towards the 
end.
 
 >Seriously, from our point of view, Afghanistan was as close to a perfect
 >situation as you can get.  All we had to do was provide air & logisitcal
 >support, and the population in the are being attacked wasn't too thrilled
 >with the current government.  They all aren't going to be that way.

(Actually, it wasn't the population that opposed the Taliban.  it was the 
Northern Alliance.  The only reason the NA isn't pillaging the citizens like 
they were doing before the Taliban kicked them out is because they're 
preoccupied spending all that money that we bribed them with.  Sort of a 
Marshall Plan for bandit chiefs.  Seems to have worked so far.)

Well, one wouldn't think so, but as I understand it the plans for attacking 
Iraq involve a repeat of Afghanisan, using "rebels" in the north and south to 
do the actual fighting while we provide airstrikes.  Again:  "Army?  What 
Army?"  To my knowledge the army made not one twitch towards deployment 
during the Afghan battle -- either the authorities were supremely confident 
that they didn't need the army, or they had misgivings about deploying it in 
its present condition.  One wouldn't think Iraq would roll up so handily, but 
no-one thought the Taliban would roll up so fast either.  Apparently we're 
going to find out.

On the other hand, if the latest briefs are any indication and we launch any 
military action against the house of Saud, then I think we're going to have 
to occupy everything from Libya to Jakarta.  That _will_ require an army, and 
I'm not sure we have one.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 17:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (markc@peak.org)
Date: Tue Aug  6 16:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <244640-2200282623322384@M2W096.mail2web.com>

Jesse DeGraff <Jesse=2EDeGraff@netapp=2Ecom> writes:

> Gee, ALL the clowns are coming out of the woodwork ;
> BTW, is the December shoot going to happen?

Umm=2E=2E=2E December=2E  Why do you ask? :^)


(Seriously, it's on Saturday, Dec=2E 7th=2E)

    - Mark C=2E


--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 17:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Tue Aug  6 16:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <003401c23d98$a70d8680$da29f7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOECFILAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Fred Ramen
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 3:29 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Arbellatra


From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>

>>"Nothing succeeds like success" they say.  I've always sensed that along
with being politically brilliant, she was possibly the greatest strategic
and tactical mind the Imperium ever saw.  She was only 28 when the war
broke out, according to canon.  I'd prefer to push her date of birth back
to 567, making her 48 at the beginning of the war.  This at least gives her
the age to have had a fairly long career and been at least an experienced
Captain or junior Admiral.  This would, IMHO, make her seizure of the
fleets far more acceptable.  No one is going to listen to a pup of a Ltd.
Commander.<<

I'm probably in a tiny minority here, but I remain unconvinced about
Arbellatra's strategic brilliance. Certainly her conduct of the 2FW does not
seem to have a personal stamp upon it the way Norris' saving strategy in the
5FW does. Canonical info on the war is spotty, of course, but it is
described as a "holding action" accompanied by commerce raids. When the
dreadnoughts are finally constructed, Arbellatra does not lead them on a
reconquest of the Marches, but merely forces a stalemate...and then promptly
concedes territory to the Zhodani, as well as separating several other
worlds from the Imperium. Compare Norris, who does in fact lead a reconquest
that restores the status quo antebellum, as well as changing the strategic
makeup of the states in the Marches in the Imperium's favor.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Ahe doesn't need to be a genius she has thirdly things going for her when
she
marches on the Captal.  First, Her force have been defending the Imperium
against
outsiders and she is out to save the rest of the imperium.  Secondlym, she
has
the core of Plankwell's flee, ;png in the tooth perhaps but still a bunch
with a
tradition of winning.  The ones she beats have been mixing it up in the Core
cector for a long time, repair and maintainance facilities have been gought
over
conquered and reconquered, not entirely bloodlessly for decdes now.  Her
fleet
battleworn though it may be, it is still in better shape then its
competition.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>I think the title of Grand Admiral was given to her for no better reason
than she knew how to fight.  Look at all the generals that Lincoln broke
before finding Grant. She demonstrated the ability to win.  Before that,
the post maybe had been more political, but consider the event of the 1FW,
I somehow doubt it.  The Marches had just been cursed with a string of bad
leaders.<<

Yes, but in the canonical timeline she is simply too young, and Cleon V is
around for too short a time for this to work. (He rules for three years, the
first of which is the first year of the 2FW; this would imply that
Arbellatra could not have been appointed by him prior to 616 or so, unless
she was already known to him for some reason.)

I myself like the idea that the Alikhalikoi family were prominent supporters
of Cleon's faction, or perhaps loyalists who resisted Olav. They may have
been pretenders to a duchy in the Marches, or had had their title revoked.
What may have happened is that an older member of the Alikhalikoi family was
actually appointed by Cleon, but due to death or other happenstance was
unable to actually serve. Arbellatra was then chosen because she was the
least controversial candidate--her family had the commission, she was the
heir, and her youth would allow her to be manipulated by the other nobles.
Her brilliance was that she ended up dominating them. (To bring in Doug's
Hitler analogy, compare the way the right wing thought they would dominate
Hitler in 1933. Or how Lincoln routinely outmanuevered his cabinet members
political ambition.)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Or a combination, she lucked out early, and won some critical battles.
Like Hitler, she is a good tactician, not a strategist.  She was however a
good pokitical leader and even if Arabella the war leader varely won
Arabella the protector was superb in saving the Imperium.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>Wit my revised birth year, she is now 48 when the 2FW breaks out, 53 when
it ends.  She had to leave before the end of the war, since she defeats
Gustus in 622.  Have her, and a small fleet leave in late 618, leaving the
war to a trusted group of under commanders.  The history is murky here.
Perhaps the Zhodani were broken by mid-618, and the last ~18 months were
mopping up and retaking worlds?

She arrives in the Core no later than early 621, when a large armada. Along
the way, she defeats several pretenders, and forces a battle with Gustus at
the Second Battle of Zhimaway.  Proceeding to Capital, she declares herself
regent in late 622, at the age of 55.  Becomes Empress in 629 at 62, Dies
in 666 at 99.  Marries late, first son born in 624.<<

I have no problem with this as an alternate timeline. I guess my point is
merely that this kind of surgery is necessary to produce Arbellatra the
Conqueror. Canon allows for a different picture to be read between the
lines, IMHO. To bring back Augustus, Arbellatra may have succeeded in
keeping the throne because, like Octavian, she was just enough of a general
to have won the war but obviously not some one who could only rule by virtue
of the sword. That is, as an UNprofessional Admiral, she would have the
support of a populace thoroughly sick of what the professional soldiers had
been doing for twenty years.

All IMHO, YMMV, IANAGD, etc.

Fred Ramen

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Likewise

jml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 17:46:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Tue Aug  6 16:46:04 2002
Subject: [TML] army usage
In-Reply-To: <a6.2a3d2ddd.2a81b626@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0208070140370.363897-100000@svati>

On Tue, 6 Aug 2002 Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> >Seriously, from our point of view, Afghanistan was as close to a perfect
> >situation as you can get.  All we had to do was provide air & logisitcal
> >support, and the population in the are being attacked wasn't too thrilled
> >with the current government.  They all aren't going to be that way.
>
>(Actually, it wasn't the population that opposed the Taliban.  it was the
>Northern Alliance.  The only reason the NA isn't pillaging the citizens like
>they were doing before the Taliban kicked them out is because they're
>preoccupied spending all that money that we bribed them with.  Sort of a
>Marshall Plan for bandit chiefs.  Seems to have worked so far.)

I really think you should do some research on the situation in Afganisthan
and how everything went down before blurting things out. The main population
of Afganisthan was opposed to the Taliban, which is mainly from a tribe to
the south west (I think). The Taliban was however heavily enforcing their rule
and the Northern Alliance was the only once with enough manpower and equipment
to fight back.

Also don't think there was any bribing necessary. The Northern Alliance was
losing and losing bad, until the Americans interfeered and provided supported
the NA with heavy bombing.

Tommy Grav
-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 17:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Aug  6 16:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <200208062357.MFJ01994@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Jeff D. Greenly" says
<snip naval change of command>

Don't forget - the outgoing commander has to do an inventory 
with the new commander, and the new commander gets to sign 
for the ship and all of the equipment in it.
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 18:01:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Aug  6 17:01:05 2002
Subject: [TML] OT:  December ARPC shoot
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15F3@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Good to hear!  I'm desperately going to try to make it up again finally, as the financial situation has improved a little.  Providing of course that I can get a new roomate and don't have to keep paying twice the rent like I am now :(  Also, I'm going to invite Erin again, and maybe I can get my "girlfriend" to go too ;)

Jesse


-----Original Message-----
From: markc@peak.org [mailto:markc@peak.org]
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 4:32 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .


Jesse DeGraff <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> writes:

> Gee, ALL the clowns are coming out of the woodwork ;
> BTW, is the December shoot going to happen?

Umm... December.  Why do you ask? :^)


(Seriously, it's on Saturday, Dec. 7th.)

    - Mark C.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 18:01:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Aug  6 17:01:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
Message-ID: <200208070000.MFJ02183@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

alan spik says
<snip the enlisted view of the change of command>

the sergeant major kept me and a couple of other guys in the 
rear of the formation.  we were supposed to watch out for 
people about to fall out, and as discreetly as possible, move 
forward and get them out of formation.

hot sun, standing in one place for a long time, etc...
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 18:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 17:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The cloak
Message-ID: <OFE82EC4F7.A922AAEF-ONCA256C0E.0000643B@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

And Brian gave us a wonderfully-UNwanted mental image:
>I once ran through the Maxcy dorm parking lot at USC wearing only 
sneakers
>and a Spuds McKenzie beach towel around my neck (yelling "SCIENCE!" at 
the
>top of my lungs for reasons that now escape me)...does that count as 
wearing
>a cloak? 

Only if it was a Cloak of Invisibility.

The _cloak_ being invisible, I mean.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 18:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Tue Aug  6 17:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
References: <20020806203610.24254.48308.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D506687.7BD7A795@earthlink.net>

Mark C. posted:
> 
> Jesse DeGraff <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> writes:
> 
> > What about artists?  ;)
> 
> Sure, why not?  Do you know any? >^)
> 
>     - Mark C.

Oh, gawd, puh-LEEZE let him on it. Maybe SJG will one
day market his graphics on T-shirts (HINT, HINT!).

Do you know how difficult it is for me to NOT
print T-shirts of his stuff for personal use?

David Smart

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 18:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Aug  6 17:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: army usage
Message-ID: <20020807002817.99096.qmail@web20417.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>

>I really think you should do some research on the situation in 
>Afganisthan and how everything went down before blurting things out.
>The main population of Afganisthan was opposed to the Taliban, which
>is mainly from a tribe to the south west (I think). 

Tommy, you should do some research, too.  The Taliban was composed
primarily of Pakistani and Saudi volunteers who called themselves
"students" (of Islam).  Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, with the knowledge
if not the support of the United States government, formed and
trained the Taliban and sent them to end the civil war in
Afghanistan, which they did.  The peace they imposed was in many ways
worse than the war.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 18:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 17:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
Message-ID: <OF0802E7D8.0474AB00-ONCA256C0D.008279D4@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Martin posted a correction:
>>>The Impeirum is TL 14 mostly, with Tl 15 just creeping in over the last
>>>few years.
>>
>> OK, this one's got me puzzled, I'll give a serious reply now.
>
>Ooops. Sorry "best tech in the Imperium is mostly TL 14, with 15
>creeping in". Average is lower..

Thank goodness! (I was sort-of worried this would mean a future major 
correction to the T20 rule-book. ;-)  ;-)

It also makes my other, later posts on the topic moot.

("Moot" as in "in complete agreement with". So now I can remain mute. ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------





tml-request@travellercentral.com
Sent by: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
07/08/2002 02:18
Please respond to tml

 
        To:     tml@travellercentral.com
        cc: 
        Subject:        TML digest, Vol 2002 #890 - 23 msgs
Is this part of a business decision process?: 


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Today's Topics:

   1. Woo Hoo Yepieee the IW are coming to town (Andrew & Dii 
Moffatt-Vallance)
   2. Silly Question (Cheng Tseng)
   3. Re: Gas Giant Mass (David Shayne)
   4. Re: Re: Mines (Timothy Little)
   5. RE: Silly Question (Mosaic Tapestry)
   6. Re: The big fleet debate (Timothy Little)
   7. GURPS MISSILE WARFARE (was The big fleet debate) (hal@buffnet.net)
   8. Re: T20 background question (MJ Dougherty)
   9. Re: Jump governor (MJ Dougherty)
  10. Re: Imperial Taxes (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
  11. Re: The big fleet debate (Timothy Little)
  12. Re: Re: Quote (correction) (Leonard Erickson)
  13. Re: mines (Timothy Little)
  14. Re: The big fleet debate (Timothy Little)
  15. Re: The big fleet debate (Timothy Little)
  16. Ad campaign...... (Michael Cessna)
  17. Re: Re: Mines (Rupert Boleyn)
  18. Re: RE: Dehumanization (John T. Kwon)
  19. GURPS Interstellar Wars (knightsky@juno.com)
  20. RE: GURPS Interstellar Wars (Mike West)
  21. Re: The cloak (Hurrel, Brian)
  22. Re: Gas Giant Mass (Anthony Jackson)
  23. Re: RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries" (Anthony Jackson)

--__--__--

Message: 1
From: "Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 18:05:31 +1200
Subject: [TML] Woo Hoo Yepieee the IW are coming to town
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Copied from JTAS

From:       Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Date:       23:01:47, Aug 05, 2002
Message-ID: 15305
Group:      General Discussion

Interstellar Wars: A New Direction For Traveller Steve Jackson Games is 
pleased to announce that its license to produce a GURPS version of the 
classic science-fiction roleplaying game Traveller has been extended for 
another three years. By agreement with Far Future Enterprises, the 
GURPS Traveller line, as well as the online Journal of the Travellers' Aid 

Society, will continue at least through the end of 2005.

The new license also gives SJ Games the right to open up a new period in 
the distant past of the classic Third Imperium setting. Long before the 
foundation of the Imperium, the Humans of Terra reached the stars for the 
first time, only to find that they were already owned by someone else. 
Centuries of conflict followed, in which the outnumbered Terrans fought 
for 
their very survival against a vast but decadent alien empire. Now GURPS 
Traveller will examine this crucial time. The first release in the new 
line, 
GURPS Traveller: The Interstellar Wars, is tentatively scheduled for a 
Summer 2003 release.

"The Interstellar Wars have always been of great interest to Traveller 
fans," 
said GURPS Traveller Line Editor Jon F. Zeigler. "It's very exciting to 
have 
the opportunity to develop this period into a setting for epic adventure." 

Marc Miller, creator of Traveller, agreed. "I'm excited about opening a 
new 
milieu. There's room for a lot of new things here." Senior Line Editor 
Loren 
Wiseman, long-time Traveller author and editor, remains at the helm of the 

GURPS Traveller product line. He is assisted by Zeigler, and by Graeme 
Davis, editor of the Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society (JTAS).


--__--__--

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 02:13:40 -0400
To: tml@travellercentral.com
From: cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng)
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Hi,

This probably displays the depths of my ignorance, but can anybody give me 
a
description of how a unit's change of command ceremony goes?  I am looking
specifically for the US Navy's protocol, but any nation or service is 
welcomed.

Thanks,

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - 
they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

 My Sale List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
 My Want List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


--__--__--

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 02:27:29 -0500
From: David Shayne <daveshayne@ameritech.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

> Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 09:42:43 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> David Shayne <daveshayne@ameritech.net> writes:
> >
> >> Any clues?
> >
> >I couldn't find that info in any TNE source. There are charts for that
> >in "World Builder's Handbook" for MT. Assuming for the moment that you
> >don't have access to that very worthwhile publication I can give you
> >some typical figures from that source.
> >
> >Smallest SGG radius = 20
> >Average SGG radius ~= 60
> >Highest SGG radius = 100
> >
> >Smallest LGG radius = 110
> >Average LGG radius ~= 175
> >Highest LGG radius = 240
> 
> Applying a realism check here, Jupiter, at size 88, is about the limit
> for any sort of gas giant (assuming TNE size is in thousands of miles,
> like CT size).

Yes it is. And yes from a perfect realism standpoint this is wrong.
However probably not hugely broken since the main thing we need to
determine here is the mass and this gives a reasonable number for mass
while still being usable with the same formula as for small rocky worlds
. (like earth) Besides I tend to the view that wherever reality and the
rules are in conflict it's almost always reality that has it wrong.
(With a special thanks to the late Doug Adams.)

> >
> >Lowest GG density = .1
> >Average GG density ~= .21
> >Highest GG density = .3
> 
> Assuming that's g/cc, that's horribly wrong. 

Standard densities. With Earth = 1. Doesn't look so horibly wrong now
does it? 

David Shayne

--__--__--

Message: 4
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 17:43:14 +1000
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Mines
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> No, I forgot to mention that this model can run the sensor and brain 
> for 7 days.

Phew, that's quite a bit better.  You're right about the huge drain
for PEMS though.  Aren't they meant to be *passive* sensors?


> Perhaps a CAPTOR style sensor platform with a number of small missiles 
> on board would be a workable comprimise, though it'd start getting 
> expensive real quick, and it wouldn't be long before most design 
> committees turned it into a small battle-station by adding point 
> defence, etc. I'm sure.

I strongly suspect so, yes.  Trouble is, they'd probably be right :(
Maybe small mines aren't viable in FF&S?


- Tim

--__--__--

Message: 5
From: "Mosaic Tapestry" <n2sami@attbi.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] Silly Question
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 01:06:56 -0700
Organization: often equals Disorgainization
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

I'm not sure which details are important to you but the essential bit of
a US Army change of command is the transfer of the colors. The outgoing
commander hands the colors to his commanding officer who immediately
hands them to the incoming commander.

A web page of events surrounding such with photo of the act:
http://www.militarymarksmanship.org/hoidahlcoc.htm

A web page of events surrounding such with parade and all:
http://www.afsouth.nato.int/images/change.htm



--__--__--

Message: 6
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 18:22:06 +1000
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] The big fleet debate
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Hal wrote:
> List all of the modifiers to gunner's skill you are using in a 
> missile/antimissile engagement.

Pretty similar to yours.  In more detail:

> Skill 12 laser gunner

A reasonable median.  I've been assuming about 9 for civilians who
have weapons but test-fire them more than they use them, up to about
15 for well-trained and experienced military personnel.

> Gunnery +6 to hit program

I generally use a Complexity 8 targeting program for +9 to hit (not
cumulative with Gunnery program).  Civilian ships will have less,
possibly +4.

> ROF bonus +10

I get only +7 RoF bonus per laser, or +8 (maybe +9) for a standard
"triple laser" turret.  Are you grouping them into larger batteries?

> Total modifiers:
> 12+ 32 + 6 + 10 + 10 + 2 - 39 = 72-39 = 32

Pretty close; I get between 24-37 depending upon circumstances; 32 is
fine.


> Rolling an average of 10 on 3d6 means that you will have succeeded by 
> 22.  Number of missiles successfully engaged in that round will be equal 
to 
> round((22-3)/2,0) or 19/2 rounded up or 10.

It's rather odd to see a turret that fires only 1 shot per 20 seconds
take out 10 missiles in the 15-30 seconds it takes the missiles to
cross the last half-hex, but them's the rules :(

Yes, that's close to the figures I get.


>  Please note that second edition rules for TRAVELLER have bumped up
> the ROF bonus from their current levels to current levels +3.

That's OK, I've got the second edition rules.  Just bought them a
couple of months ago.


> If more than 10 are inbound, he stops 10 and the rest hit.

That's the problem.  Dton-for-dton, there will always be more than 10
incoming missiles per defending turret using any sane launcher and
guidance design.  A million points of impact damage per turret
*really* hurts.


- Tim

--__--__--

Message: 7
From: hal@buffnet.net
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 04:40:04 -0400 (EDT)
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: [TML] GURPS MISSILE WARFARE (was The big fleet debate)
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

>> Gunnery +6 to hit program
>
> I generally use a Complexity 8 targeting program for +9 to hit (not
> cumulative with Gunnery program).  Civilian ships will have less,
> possibly +4.

The CDI (C Defense Industries) had a showcase of a lot of different types
of low power lasers.  The trade off was that they increased the rate of
fire to get an increase in ROF bonus.  One interesting development was to
build a specialized targeting computer.  Using GURPS rules, it was a
specilized computer getting a +1 complexity bonus for use with a targeting
computer.


>> ROF bonus +10
>
> I get only +7 RoF bonus per laser, or +8 (maybe +9) for a standard
> "triple laser" turret.  Are you grouping them into larger batteries?

The point defense lasers I built could easily attain that ROF bonus. 
Since lasers in a single turret cannot target different targets, most
Point defense scenarios I had were such that you had a triple turret
firing three lasers at its target.  I will see if I can dig up my archived
copy of the point defense lasers.  But +10 is not hard to achieve :)


>> Total modifiers:
>> 12+ 32 + 6 + 10 + 10 + 2 - 39 = 72-39 = 32
>
> Pretty close; I get between 24-37 depending upon circumstances; 32 is
> fine.
>
>
>> Rolling an average of 10 on 3d6 means that you will have succeeded by
>> 22.  Number of missiles successfully engaged in that round will be
>> equal to  round((22-3)/2,0) or 19/2 rounded up or 10.
>
> It's rather odd to see a turret that fires only 1 shot per 20 seconds
> take out 10 missiles in the 15-30 seconds it takes the missiles to
> cross the last half-hex, but them's the rules :(

Minor thoughts: part of that +10 bonus for Point defense comes of the fact
that the missiles attempting to hit you have to come in from a specific
"region".  This region is a relatively small cone that gets smaller the
closer those missiles come to you.  But you are correct.  There should be
a MAX number of targets that can be engaged by a single laser group per
turn equal to the max number of shots a single laser in the grouping and
put out in a turn.


>> If more than 10 are inbound, he stops 10 and the rest hit.
>
> That's the problem.  Dton-for-dton, there will always be more than 10
> incoming missiles per defending turret using any sane launcher and
> guidance design.  A million points of impact damage per turret
> *really* hurts.

Using the concept that the current weapon systems are designed to operate
against the current enemy weapon technology - try using the GURPS
TRAVELLER missile designs first.  Then do an analysis of weapons in the
TRAVELLER universe.  If you can see where there is an improved methodology
for weapons, post it and we can argue the merits and/or improve any
oversights.  I am still flabberghasted that no one ever noticed that the
FAST drug makes a FAR better alternative for cheap travel than does a
freeze tube!

  But that is another story ;)



--__--__--

Message: 8
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] T20 background question
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 10:29:39 +0100
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

>
> Martin replied:
> >>What is the TL of  the Imperium & the Terran Confederation in the
> >>Year 1000 setting of T20?
> >
> >The Impeirum is TL 14 mostly, with Tl 15 just creeping in over the last
> few
> >years.
>
> OK, this one's got me puzzled, I'll give a serious reply now.


Ooops. Sorry "best tech in the Imperium is mostly TL 14, with 15 creeping
in". Average is lower..


--__--__--

Message: 9
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Jump governor
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 10:30:44 +0100
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com


> I don't see these in High Guard - IMTU, they don't exist.  If
> a Jump-4 ship jumps 2 parsecs, they only use 2 parsecs worth
> of fuel.
>
> What was the last canon word on this subject, if any?

Marc's last statement (and confirmed to me in a question I asked a while
ago) was that if you have J-3 fuel and you J-1, you only use J1 of fuel 
up.


--__--__--

Message: 10
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 12:06:33 +0200 (MEST)
From: Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Taxes
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Anthony Jackson writes:
>In Striker, the implication is that the imperial military tax is simply 
1/3
>of the planet's total military expenditure (with another 1/3 going to the
>subsector fleet, so the world only keeps 1/3 for personal forces).

Incorrect. It's 30% of total military expenditure that goes to the
Imperium with 70% retained for local use. The 30% is divided between
regular and subsector forces. I used to be convinced that somewhere I had
seen a canonical statement to the effect that these Imperial military
taxes were split 50/50 between regular and subsector forces (so 15% to
each), but I've been trying to track down the reference for a while with
no luck, so I'm beginning to doubt. Maybe I made it up myself (anyone who
can come up with the reference will earn my undying gratitude ;-).



Hans


--__--__--

Message: 11
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 20:19:01 +1000
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] The big fleet debate
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Ok, that's reasonable.  Now, let's look at a point defense system:

> 9 x rE cell, good for 50 shots: 0.09T, $90k

I get $180k, but that doesn't matter much.

> Dedicated Macroframe: 0.25T, $50k, complexity 11

I get $100k and Complexity 10 at TL12.  It's not hardened, but that's
not likely to be a problem except in really unusual situations.


> Targeting +12: $512k (but probably gets a bulk discoute)

I get $256k, and I agree about the bulk discount ;) However, I can
only seem to fit a $128k +11 program in the macroframe.


> with the Vehicles system beam weapons in space have no Acc cap,

However, in the Vehicles rules maximum accuracy bonus is limited to
Gunnery skill, in this case 25.  There's no point in aiming more than
one second.  That gives you a base of 50 (51 since you can miss by one
and still hit).


> The missile is being fired at one second before impact

You'd better make that at least two seconds else the now unguided
missile will still hit your ship.  You need to do a *lot* more damage
to annihilate it.  (In fact, if there are a lot of missiles, you might
find it very hard to dodge all the "dead" ones...)

That doesn't change the basic to-hit number by much, it's 15- instead
of 16-.  Continuing the progression out to the 1/2D limit, I also get
an average of about 8 missiles killed.

It's a good thing I didn't put thermal superconductors in their
armour ;)


> Hm...that's actually worse than I realized.  Oh well, if they send a
> really big swarm of missiles at you simply dump a canister round in
> front of them.

How *big* a canister round?

You need to disable the missiles about 600 miles out, and they will
probably be approaching from a region 200 miles across at that
distance.  Your canister must disperse about ten trillion objects of
sufficient size to reliably disable a missile, just to cut the numbers
in half.

A 20 MJ x-ray pulse is barely enough to penetrate the DR, so I'll use
that to derive an estimate of particle size required.  At 500 km/s,
that works out to a mass of about 0.16 grams, which I will round down
to 0.1 grams to give some benefit of the doubt to the defending side.

Each canister must thus have a mass of about a million tonnes.  You
would actually need a few times that to account for dispersion.


Your countermissile idea was better.  I've designed and played it
using Vehicles rules, and it is a highly reliable system for
intercepting missiles.

It would probably fail horribly when faced with a "silent launch" from
an untracked ship though.  In my Vehicles test of this scenario, most
of the missiles weren't detected until about 10 seconds before impact.
Even with an immediate launch at 30 gees, they couldn't intercept the
missiles at a safe distance.  In such a case, lasers are about the
only option -- and even then, not a good one.


- Tim

--__--__--

Message: 12
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 01:45:33 PST
Organization: Shadownet
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

In mail you write:

>> >That's John Milius.
>> 
>> So it is . . . he still should have directed Starship Troopers.
>> 
>> LKW
>
> Anyone _OTHER_ than Verhoeven should have directed Starship Troopers.

Yeah, but if he directed Red Dawn, he *definitely* makes the short list.


-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


--__--__--

Message: 13
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 20:37:58 +1000
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] mines
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Terry Carlino wrote:
[2D maps vs 3D maps]
> What has that to do with anything. A det-laser mine that can fire
> across a 10,000 mile hex, can fire across a 10,000 sphere.

The difference is in how many you need.  A typical interplanetary
"traffic lane" would be a few million miles wide (say 5 million).  On
a 2-D map, you only need 500 mines which is expensive but probably
doable.  On a 3D map you need 250,000 -- that's almost certain to
break your budget given how much they cost each.

Note that I'm not saying mines are ineffective in general, I was
commenting in the thread that started with an attacker trying to use
them to destroy interplanetary commerce.  I don't think that will work
well enough to be worthwhile.


> After doing some searching on my hard drive I find that actual range
> is more like 9 hexes, so in a three dimensional game that would be a
> sphere 180,000 miles across.

9 hexes range is a lot better.  You only need about 800 to cover that
traffic lane. 


> I think the best system we came up with was one where the mines were
> controlled by either a controlling sensor platform or a ship. This
> makes the mines smaller and cheaper. The sensors "paint" the target
> for the passive sensors on the mines to pick up.

Yes, that rings a bell.  Again, more effective in 2D than 3D, but
useful for covering the space near a planet or other "small" area.


> Part of the point would be to force ships attempting to traverse the
> area to slow down, use sensors and weapons to clear the mine
> field. This alone would make them detectable to opposing craft.

I've not found detection of enemy craft to be much of a problem in my
test-bed runs.  Usually the side with mines controls the system, sees
the jump flash of any intruder, and can track everything they
subsequently do.

Maybe I'm just lacking battle experience against other people.  Is
avoiding detection by the defender a possibility in most people's
scenarios?


- Tim

--__--__--

Message: 14
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 20:42:57 +1000
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] The big fleet debate
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

David P. Summers wrote:
> What is the view toward using nukes for point defense?

My first thought would be "Is it worthwhile?"

Politically, I suspect it lies in a murky area.  In practice, I
suspect that the advantages of using nuclear weapons for defense
aren't sufficient to be worth the chance that the other side might
take it as a sign that it's OK for them to use nukes in offense.

I can see very clear advantages to using nukes offensively...


- Tim

--__--__--

Message: 15
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 20:44:12 +1000
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] The big fleet debate
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Terry Carlino wrote:
> The only reason I can think of is to allow you to self destruct the
> missile if necessary.

Yes, I guess that makes sense.  Thanks :)


- Tim

--__--__--

Message: 16
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 04:14:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Cessna <graymask1120@yahoo.com>
To: TML <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: [TML] Ad campaign......
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Just a thought for an InstellArms catalog:

http://www.missilesandfirecontrol.com/our_products/antiarmor.html

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

--__--__--

Message: 17
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Organization: Babel and Chaos
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 00:03:47 +1200
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Mines
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

On 6 Aug 2002 at 17:43, Timothy Little wrote:

> Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > No, I forgot to mention that this model can run the sensor and brain 
> > for 7 days.
> 
> Phew, that's quite a bit better.  You're right about the huge drain
> for PEMS though.  Aren't they meant to be *passive* sensors?

Yeah. I think they must use valves in their signal processor, or 
something. :)

> > Perhaps a CAPTOR style sensor platform with a number of small missiles 

> > on board would be a workable comprimise, though it'd start getting 
> > expensive real quick, and it wouldn't be long before most design 
> > committees turned it into a small battle-station by adding point 
> > defence, etc. I'm sure.
> 
> I strongly suspect so, yes.  Trouble is, they'd probably be right :(
> Maybe small mines aren't viable in FF&S?

It depends what for. That first design I posted was only 1 m^3 in 
volume, and would be quite hard to avoid, I think. the 3 G-turns of 
fuel it had is enough to guarantee that it can get into firing position 
of anything that comes within 60,000km or so (a turn in TNE is 30 
minutes, and a hex 30,000km).

By ditching the rocket the volume can be brought down to 0.6 m^3 and 
the cost to MCr1.423 at TL15, but then the mine can only attack craft 
that come into its hex - within 10-15,000km or so. I tried taking off 
the Electromagnetic Masking (EMM), but that didn't save any significant 
space, money or power.

Actually playing around I see that if a fusion reactor of minimum size 
is put in (assuming TL15 that's 0.1 m^3 and 0.6MW) you can still have 
the basic 1 m^3 mine, and about 4 months fuel, with no noticeable 
increase in cost. In fact the limit to performance suddenly bocomes 
surface area on which to mount the PEMS.

Thus:

TL Guidance Vol Mass AV MCr   G-Turns Warhead Hits Damage  Range
15 Full-Ind 1   1.26 3  1.547 3/3     50kt    1D6  1/14-43 0

Comm Sensor Signatures     Asset
10L  1P     +4/+3/+4/+3/+1 4/8

with a duration for the sensor and brain of 4 months.

Or, for a bigger job:

TL Guidance Vol Mass AV MCr   G-Turns Warhead Hits Damage  Range
15 Full-Ind 7   8.48 3  7.434 3/3     500kt   1D6  1/25-79 0

Comm Sensor Signatures     Asset
10L  5P     +4/+3/+4/+3/+1 6/16

This thing has a short range of 150,000km for its PEMS and a maximum of 
1,200,000km and a year's fuel for the fusion plant that powers its 
sensor and brain (the same plant as the little 'um uses, BTW). It has a 
fairly weak motor because it's still got a crappy little EAPlaC solid 
fuel rocket instead of a nice HEPlaR or thruster system. This way it's 
not sensitive to issues version or canon the same way (FWIW).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


--__--__--

Message: 18
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 08:08:27 -0400
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] RE: Dehumanization
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

>I am of the view that we are not going very far as a species 
>until we manage to get our act together on Earth and solve 
>the seemingly insurmountable problems - of our own doing - 
>facing us. Even interplanetary travel on any significant 
>scale is just not going to happen unless we instigate a 
>paradigm shift in the way we behave towards each other and
>towards life in general. Is it unreasonable to assume that 
>any sentient species that gains control of its environment 
>has to learn to curb exponential growth and a corresponding 
>exponential increase in the demand for resources? Only once 
>this hurdle is overcome will the ability to harness the 
>resources of a single solar system and the ability to travel 
>to other solar systems be developed.

This is the Sagan hypothesis - that sufficiently advanced 
alien life forms will have learned to be "peaceful".  There 
is no reason that this has to be so.  If a warlike species 
came to be dominated by a single high tech faction, through 
limited nuclear war and genocidal action, and used this high 
technology to permanently dominate and subjugate its 
population, it would survive its birth into a nuclear age and 
birth into a starfaring age.

Sufficiently advanced technology makes life on an airless 
rockball possible - why would such a species need to preserve 
its wildlife? 

It is simply not logical to conclude that we must get our act 
together in some peaceful manner.  All that is required is 
that we get our act together - and this could be done today 
by the United States, largely through the use of force.  We 
could solve many problems at once - the population problem, 
the poverty of the third world, the source of most terrorists 
around the world, religions that are inimical to US goals, up 
and coming governments that will consume resources to no good 
end - imagine the tyranny of technological might that could 
annihilate several billion people in a few weeks, and spend 
the world's resources on going to the stars.

A peaceful Sagan-like world that ran across a violent world 
where both were capable of building antimatter rockets would 
be annihilated by the violent world in the time it took for 
the rockets to cross the distance.  The peaceful would die 
with startled looks on their faces as the radars showed the 
near-C projectiles coming in.

Scary, isn't it?  But I think that across the stars, this is 
the far more likely scenario.  Sagan was a dreamer, a wishful 
thinker whose idea of transgression was cheating on his wife.

When I see pictures of children overseas holding AK-47s, I 
see a future where alien races are holding antimatter rockets 
and near-C rocks.  Same picture.  It's not a good idea to 
shout, "Here I am!" in a jungle like that.
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

--__--__--

Message: 19
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 08:19:15 -0400
From: knightsky@juno.com
Subject: [TML] GURPS Interstellar Wars
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

Many of you have probably already run across this, but for those who
haven't, check out Evil Stevie's Daily Illuminator
(http://www.sjgames.com/ill/) for the 8/6/02 entry.


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"




________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

--__--__--

Message: 20
From: "Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] GURPS Interstellar Wars
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 08:43:47 -0500
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

> Many of you have probably already run across this, but for those who
> haven't, check out Evil Stevie's Daily Illuminator
> (http://www.sjgames.com/ill/) for the 8/6/02 entry.

I hadn't see it yet, but it does sound interesting.  The only thing
I hope is that this doesn't mean they are abandoning their alternate
history.

They have just gotten to the cusp of 1120 and actually having history
move forward.  It will be quite disappointing if instead history just
stops at 1120 as they abandon it for the Interstellar Wars.

Mike West

--__--__--

Message: 21
From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>
To: "'tml@travellercentral.com'" <tml@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] The cloak
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 10:40:25 -0400 
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

I once ran through the Maxcy dorm parking lot at USC wearing only sneakers
and a Spuds McKenzie beach towel around my neck (yelling "SCIENCE!" at the
top of my lungs for reasons that now escape me)...does that count as 
wearing
a cloak? 

--__--__--

Message: 22
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 09:10:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

David Shayne writes:

> Standard densities. With Earth = 1. Doesn't look so horibly wrong now
> does it? 

Ok, that's not as bad. 

--__--__--

Message: 23
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 09:17:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

David P. Summers writes:

> You are assuming close packed spheres.

Actually, I'm assuming a flat 'shell' of fighters.  Volume covered is 
actually
third order in range.
> ground per sensor by moveing around).  Also, If you take sensor input 
> from multiple sensors and combine them, it is possible to generate 
> detection of things that couldn't be detected within the range of 
> anyone sensor.

GURPS doesn't really cover array sensors (if you're going to apply that 
bit of
realism, there's a lot of other realism tweaks you can make as well), but
interferometry really isn't going to help much with deep space detection, 
as
(a) it mostly improves resolution, not sensitivity, and (b) it massively
reduces coverage, meaning you're likely to miss objects entirely due to 
looking
in the wrong direction.
 
>  Lastly, the advantage that a fighter gives only its 
> own position, and not that of the capital ship, if it is caught first 
> is non-trivial

If stealth were particularly meaningful or interesting in space, sure.  In
practice, having multiple small ships just guarantees you'll be spotted, 
due to
other quirks in the sensor rules.


--__--__--

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 18:46:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Tue Aug  6 17:46:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
References: <200208070000.MFJ02183@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D506907.B582A8E7@mindspring.com>

"John T. Kwon" wrote:
> 
> alan spik says
> <snip the enlisted view of the change of command>
> 
> the sergeant major kept me and a couple of other guys in the
> rear of the formation.  we were supposed to watch out for
> people about to fall out, and as discreetly as possible, move
> forward and get them out of formation.
> 
> hot sun, standing in one place for a long time, etc...
> ________________
> FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

I don't think the Navy was that organized. Read with amusement Doug's
post about marching. At every CoC I attended, we were given a time to be
there. We were expected to, and did meander our way over and meet the
Chief who would tell us where to stand. Usually a big gaggle(Pod?), then
the Master Chief would come out and make everyone straiten up in ranks,
and the show would get started about thirty minutes later. I remember
several people falling out.

-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
If you can't convince them, confuse them.
                -Harry S. Truman

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 19:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 18:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
Message-ID: <OFEF204F0E.98F09E48-ONCA256C0E.00054E5A@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Steven wrote:
>(Incidentally, I remember there being a single 1-point TL 16 unit in
>=46FW, which I always assumed to be the player characters!)

ROFL! Better chalk up a keyboard kill for that one!

I can just picture the group in my mind - a bunch of unruly, slavering 
warmongers, weighed down with all those nasty weapons and ammo that they 
couldn't possibly carry in Real Life, propbably tooling down the street in 
a Lancer, and who are they?

PCs!!

"Fear Them!!"

(...and players reckon they can't change the course of major events! ;-))
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 19:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 18:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <6c.205466db.2a81ce42@aol.com>

>Keeping in mind that it's been a while...
>
>A Naval change of command reflects the fact that the Captain of the
>vessel/unit/whatever IS the vessel/unit/whatever. 

A Hollywood version of the change of command (and a damned good performance 
by Humphrey Bogart) can be seen in THE CAINE MUTINY. A great movie, and an 
interesting approach to the US Navy in WWII, albeit not as historically 
accurate as it could be.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 19:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 18:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
Message-ID: <cb.263b55e1.2a81d002@aol.com>

>Jeff D. Greenly" says
><snip naval change of command>
>
>Don't forget - the outgoing commander has to do an inventory 
>with the new commander, and the new commander gets to sign 
>for the ship and all of the equipment in it.

Naval JAG: So what happened to the three 15" guns that used to in the aft 
turret?
Captain: What 15" guns? This is a destroyer!
Naval JAG: The ones in the property book you signed for when you took 
command. I'm afraid we can't allow you to retire until those are paid for . . 
. 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 19:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 18:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
Message-ID: <40.21dfb589.2a81d093@aol.com>

--part1_40.21dfb589.2a81d093_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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>Naval JAG: So what happened to the three 15" guns that used to in the aft 
>turret?
>Captain: What 15" guns? This is a destroyer!
>Naval JAG: The ones in the property book you signed for when you took 
>command. I'm afraid we can't allow you to retire until those are paid for . 
. 

Heh. Anyone remember the classic SF story "Allamagoosa?"

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

--part1_40.21dfb589.2a81d093_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt;Naval JAG: So what happened to the three 15" guns that used to in the aft 
<BR>&gt;turret?
<BR>&gt;Captain: What 15" guns? This is a destroyer!
<BR>&gt;Naval JAG: The ones in the property book you signed for when you took 
<BR>&gt;command. I'm afraid we can't allow you to retire until those are paid for . . 
<BR>
<BR>Heh. Anyone remember the classic SF story "Allamagoosa?"
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_40.21dfb589.2a81d093_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 19:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 18:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <OFD36DEE2F.D870CE31-ONCA256C0E.00093695@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

From Jesse & Doug:
>>>What about artists?  ;)
>>
>>Back in your hole, polygon boy!  When we want something from you, we'll 
do
>>the usual thing.  Toss a contract and art specs in your cage and pray 
you
>>don't ruin our finely crafted prose with your "art."
>
>No more grav tanks you Penguin Boy ;)
>
>And that should read:
>"When we want something from you, we'll do the usual thing.  *At the last 
minute,* toss >a contract and, *if you're lucky*, art specs in your cage 
and pray you don't ruin our >finely crafted prose with your "art."

Love it! Some friendly banter between Penguin Boy and The Polygon Kid.

I'm settling down with some popcorn.

;-)  ;-)

(BTW Jesse, when your next page update going to happen? %^)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 19:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 18:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <OFBDFF848E.6EC3E744-ONCA256C0E.0009E3EB@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Leonard wrote:
>If we can't follow our own laws except when it is convenient, we are
>all at the mercy of anybody in a position of authorty.

Welcome to the "rule of men, not laws".

BTW, did you receive the Straker Theme I sent over?

BTW #2, the mailer seems to be adding multiple copies of selected mail 
items to the digest. Is anyone in non-digest mode experiencing the same 
thing?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 20:19:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Tue Aug  6 19:19:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <40.21dfb589.2a81d093@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020806211959.00a6ea80@minn.net>

At 09:23 PM 8/6/2002 EDT, Jon F. Zeigler wrote:
>>Naval JAG: So what happened to the three 15" guns that used to in the aft  
>>turret? 
>>Captain: What 15" guns? This is a destroyer! 
>>Naval JAG: The ones in the property book you signed for when you took  
>>command. I'm afraid we can't allow you to retire until those are paid for
>. .  
> 
>Heh. Anyone remember the classic SF story "Allamagoosa?" 

Has anyone seen the offog?


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 20:25:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Aug  6 19:25:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <m3sn1yqp9b.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20806.173519.2Q3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
>>
>> Perhaps captured officers (or at least gentlebeings) are even given
>> their parole.
>
> How exactly does this work?  Does one promise not to fight against
> one's captor ever again, or simply for a time period, or until the end
> of the current engagement, or until one has journeyed back home,
> or...?  I've considered it pretty rotten that US soldiers are not
> allowed to give their parole and get back home, but perhaps that's
> just me.

Actually, in the Napoleonic era, "giving your parole" could be far more
limited. For example, it would let you wander about the base you were
being kept at without an escort. You'd have agreed to not try to escape
or to damage anything.

The sort that would get you released would likely involve not fighting
against them again during that war. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 20:34:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 19:34:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <OFBA2D763C.F2E139E2-ONCA256C0E.000A4049@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

David Smart wrote:
>Do you know how difficult it is for me to NOT
>print T-shirts of his stuff for personal use?

I'd been thinking about this for a while, too. A copyright question that I 
don't know the answer to is, "Is it 'fair use' if I put a Jesse picture on 
ONE T-Shirt for my own use?"

The alternative I thought of was asking Jesse for permission to make _two_ 
shirts, and sending him the second one as "payment". ;-)

Jesse, your thoughts?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 20:35:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dave Strebe)
Date: Tue Aug  6 19:35:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
References: <40.21dfb589.2a81d093@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002901c23db6$2a3bcea0$6401a8c0@vs.shawcable.net>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--Boundary_(ID_pKnSt/fCjzOf2fxs/cwTgA)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

That the one with the 'disappearing ships dog'.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: JFZeigler@aol.com 
  To: tml@travellercentral.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 6:23 PM
  Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Silly Question


  >Naval JAG: So what happened to the three 15" guns that used to in the aft 
  >turret? 
  >Captain: What 15" guns? This is a destroyer! 
  >Naval JAG: The ones in the property book you signed for when you took 
  >command. I'm afraid we can't allow you to retire until those are paid for . . 

  Heh. Anyone remember the classic SF story "Allamagoosa?" 

  ---------- 
  Jon F. Zeigler 
  Line Editor, GURPS Traveller 
  jon@sjgames.com 
  "The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events." 

--Boundary_(ID_pKnSt/fCjzOf2fxs/cwTgA)
Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2716.2200" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>That the one with the 'disappearing ships 
dog'.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV 
  style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> 
  <A title=JFZeigler@aol.com 
  href="mailto:JFZeigler@aol.com">JFZeigler@aol.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=tml@travellercentral.com 
  href="mailto:tml@travellercentral.com">tml@travellercentral.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 06, 2002 6:23 
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [TML] Re: Silly 
  Question</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=2>&gt;Naval JAG: So what 
  happened to the three 15" guns that used to in the aft <BR>&gt;turret? 
  <BR>&gt;Captain: What 15" guns? This is a destroyer! <BR>&gt;Naval JAG: The 
  ones in the property book you signed for when you took <BR>&gt;command. I'm 
  afraid we can't allow you to retire until those are paid for . . <BR><BR>Heh. 
  Anyone remember the classic SF story "Allamagoosa?" <BR><BR>---------- <BR>Jon 
  F. Zeigler <BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller <BR>jon@sjgames.com <BR>"The 
  referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT> 
</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

--Boundary_(ID_pKnSt/fCjzOf2fxs/cwTgA)--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 20:41:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 19:41:11 2002
Subject: [TML] I reposted an entire Digest - Sorry!
Message-ID: <OF01BB50EA.68DB5AEA-ONCA256C0E.000E29B4@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

*Profound Apology*

I managed to forget to wipe out the rest of the message (ie. the entire 
contents of the digest) when I sent one of my "T20 background question" responses.

Sorry sorry sorry! (especially to those with bandwidth issues)

<shuffles off, embarrassed... mutter mutter, "swore I'd never do that!" 
mutter...>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 20:46:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Aug  6 19:46:13 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 background question
In-Reply-To: <3d50427f.7657767@post.demon.co.uk>
References: <006301c23ce3$2bcea180$eeb18b90@computer>
 <006301c23ce3$2bcea180$eeb18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020806223905.027bbeb8@192.168.0.1>

At 10:48 PM 8/6/2002 +0000, Stephen Tempest wrote:
>"Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com> writes:
> >The counter mix from Invasion Earth might be worth studying.
>There aren't any TL15 units on either side.
>The Imperial Marines are 78% TL14 (1 division, 3 regiments) plus 2 IM
>regiments at TL12 and TL13.
>The Imperial regular army is 70% TL14, 20% TL13, 10% TL12.
>Imperial colonial forces (which account for about 30% of the total
>Imperial strength) are TL11 - TL14, with TL12 being the norm.
>Solomani regular troops are 43% TL14, 42% TL 13, 11% TL12 and 4% TL11.
>The local Terran guerrillas are all TL 13.

Ah...perfect, thanks

I wanted to come up with some light Solomani ship that would be active in 
the Rim War.
400 ton commerce raiders, transports for Commando units, that sort of thing.
Perhaps a light carrier at TL 12 carrying TL 13/14 fighters.
Just the sort of thing you want mucking around behind enemy lines....



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Firm footwork is the fount from which springs all
offense and defense." -- Giacomo diGrasse, 1570
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 21:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mosaic Tapestry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 20:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <40.21dfb589.2a81d093@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003c01c23dc2$11fe1850$2f7de40c@loki>

Allamagoosa

Eric Frank Russell (1905-1976) Born Sandhurst, Surrey. His father was in
the military and his family moved a number of times. He spent part of
his youth in Egypt and Sudan. At college, he studied a variety of
subjects including chemistry, physics and metallurgy. During WWII, he
took radio courses in London and at the Marconi College in Chelmsford,
eventually leading a small RAF mobile radio unit attached to General
Patton's army. He worked for a time in an engineering firm, published
his first novel in 1939, and later became a full-time writer. In his
later years, he gave up writing. 

Allamagoosa is, well, clever. It's fun to read, and amusing, and it's
one of those short stories with a punch line. The crew of a ship,
knowing that they're about to be audited, want to be sure there are no
discrepancies between the actual contents of their ship and the
inventory thereof. Except there *is* a discrepancy, and...I won't spoil
it for you. The Hugo winners are anthologized and pretty widely
available, and it's only a few pages long. Go ahead and read it, it'll
give you a chuckle.

Eric Frank Russell never became as famous as many of the other Hugo
Winners, but some of his novels have recently been re-issued and are
available at Amazon(1). Shadow Man: The life and works of Eric Frank
Russell(2) is a good fan site. For some reviews of some of Russell's
other works, visit this site(3).


(1)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/103-2568973-2316640
This link credits Loren with the assist at Amazon.
(2) http://www.stageleft.com.au/efr/
(3) http://ftp.logica.com/~stepneys/sf/books/r/russell.htm



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 21:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 20:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] GURPS Interstellar Wars
Message-ID: <157.120f94ca.2a81edae@aol.com>

> Many of you have probably already run across this, but for those who
> haven't, check out Evil Stevie's Daily Illuminator
> (http://www.sjgames.com/ill/) for the 8/6/02 entry.

I hadn't see it yet, but it does sound interesting.  The only thing
I hope is that this doesn't mean they are abandoning their alternate
history.

They have just gotten to the cusp of 1120 and actually having history
move forward.  It will be quite disappointing if instead history just
stops at 1120 as they abandon it for the Interstellar Wars.

The license is for BOTH the alternate universe and the Interstellar Wars 
period, and we are not going to abandon the alternate timeline. There is too 
much cool stuff that needs to see print.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 21:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 20:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: army usage
Message-ID: <159.121cd731.2a81f025@aol.com>

 >>I really think you should do some research on the situation in 
 >>Afganisthan and how everything went down before blurting things out.
 >>The main population of Afganisthan was opposed to the Taliban, which
 >>is mainly from a tribe to the south west (I think). 
 >
 >Tommy, you should do some research, too.  The Taliban was composed
 >primarily of Pakistani and Saudi volunteers who called themselves
 >"students" (of Islam).

No.  To my knowledge, on that particular point he's right.  The Taliban 
stronghold is in the large and populous tribes of southern Afghanistan.  As I 
understand it they are the largest single group of tribes and are in fact 
extensions of the tribes in Pakistan, which would be why Pakistan supported 
them.  It was Al Qaida that were "the Arabs", the foreigners.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 21:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Hamill)
Date: Tue Aug  6 20:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
In-Reply-To: <20020806190006.21475.58141.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020807034518.1959.qmail@web21510.mail.yahoo.com>

Excuse me, but does anyone happen to know the URL of
the GTS program by Thomas Bont? All the addresses I
have for it are broken, and I really need that program
yesterday. I have a chance to get a two-part GURPS:
Traveller game together, during a weekend mini-con at
the local game store, and I really need a couple of
ships fast. Well, faster than I can do them by hand,
anyway. Thanks for your help (in advance).

John
jwdh71@yahoo.com 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 21:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Aug  6 20:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <003c01c23dc2$11fe1850$2f7de40c@loki>
References: <003c01c23dc2$11fe1850$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <1028692602.3d509a7a7909e@www.paradise.net.nz>

Quoting Mosaic Tapestry <n2sami@attbi.com>:

> Eric Frank Russell never became as famous as many of the other Hugo
> Winners, but some of his novels have recently been re-issued and are
> available at Amazon(1). Shadow Man: The life and works of Eric Frank
> Russell(2) is a good fan site. For some reviews of some of Russell's
> other works, visit this site(3).

Eric Frank Russel is one of my favourite old-time SF writers. _Men, Martians 
and Machines_ and _The Great Explosion_ probably being my two favourites.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 22:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Tue Aug  6 21:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
In-Reply-To: <20020807034518.1959.qmail@web21510.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001501c23dc7$ff408580$0b01a8c0@duck>

http://webpages.charter.net/tombont/

I *love* this program.  He does take some minor liberties,
but it is more than close enough and it does the ugly stuff
for you to make your life easier.

Mike West
mjwest@caddocourt.com 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John Hamill
> Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 10:45 PM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
> 
> 
> Excuse me, but does anyone happen to know the URL of
> the GTS program by Thomas Bont? All the addresses I
> have for it are broken, and I really need that program
> yesterday. I have a chance to get a two-part GURPS:
> Traveller game together, during a weekend mini-con at
> the local game store, and I really need a couple of
> ships fast. Well, faster than I can do them by hand,
> anyway. Thanks for your help (in advance).
> 
> John
> jwdh71@yahoo.com 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
> http://health.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 22:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mosaic Tapestry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 21:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
In-Reply-To: <20020807034518.1959.qmail@web21510.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <004501c23dc8$887ca9a0$2f7de40c@loki>

You can find it midway down this page:

http://www.sjgames.com/general/gm-aids.html



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 22:14:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mosaic Tapestry)
Date: Tue Aug  6 21:14:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <1028692602.3d509a7a7909e@www.paradise.net.nz>
Message-ID: <004601c23dc8$c24f36c0$2f7de40c@loki>

Quoting Mosaic Tapestry <n2sami@attbi.com>:

> Eric Frank Russell never became as famous as many of the other Hugo

BTW, these words are not my own but were pinched from I can't remember
where on the web.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 22:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug  6 21:26:03 2002
Subject: MT Vehicles (was: Re: [TML] Landgrab )
Message-ID: <OF72559D70.D8259EC8-ONCA256C0E.0010593F@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Peter asked:
>Does anyone have (or know of) some software  or  spreadsheet  for
>creating ground vehicles using MT rules?  I need to create  about
>a dozen different military vehicles for my Efate landgrab.

I created one, but it is a little basic and assumes you have the rules to 
plug the numbers in. (I did it years ago when I was worried about 
copyright and didn't know how to write a database spreadsheet. I still 
don't... ;-)

I downloaded one from the 'net... Ships III from Ace and The Dog's 
website. However, I can't remember if it covers vehicles. It's a bit flaky 
and can crash unexpectedly, so save often!
        http://www.ace-dog.com/downloads/downloads.htm

Would pulling a couple of designs from 101 Vehicles help? What are you 
after, specifically?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 22:50:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Hamill)
Date: Tue Aug  6 21:50:04 2002
Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
In-Reply-To: <001501c23dc7$ff408580$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <20020807044905.11399.qmail@web21510.mail.yahoo.com>

Thank you VERY much, this is a life saver. Now all I
have to do is build a couple of ships, half a dozen
PC's and about 10 NPC's by Friday. Peice of cake. :-)

--- Mike West <mjwest@caddocourt.com> wrote:
> http://webpages.charter.net/tombont/
> 
> I *love* this program.  He does take some minor
> liberties,
> but it is more than close enough and it does the
> ugly stuff
> for you to make your life easier.
> 
> Mike West
> mjwest@caddocourt.com 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> > [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf
> Of John Hamill
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 10:45 PM
> > To: tml@travellercentral.com
> > Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
> > 
> > 
> > Excuse me, but does anyone happen to know the URL
> of
> > the GTS program by Thomas Bont? All the addresses
> I
> > have for it are broken, and I really need that
> program
> > yesterday. I have a chance to get a two-part
> GURPS:
> > Traveller game together, during a weekend mini-con
> at
> > the local game store, and I really need a couple
> of
> > ships fast. Well, faster than I can do them by
> hand,
> > anyway. Thanks for your help (in advance).
> > 
> > John
> > jwdh71@yahoo.com 
> > 
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
> > http://health.yahoo.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > TML mailing list
> > TML@travellercentral.com
> >
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> > 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 22:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Tue Aug  6 21:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
In-Reply-To: <20020807044905.11399.qmail@web21510.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001601c23dce$de6fa050$0b01a8c0@duck>

When you click down, please also take note of the GURPS Character Maker.
That should help with the second part.  :-)

Oh, and I forgot to mention in the first message that it seems he
renamed the program to GURPS Modular Vehicles (GMV).  The link on the 
SJG site references a slightly older version that is still called GTS.

Mike West
mjwest@caddocourt.com 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John Hamill
> Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 11:49 PM
> To: Mike West
> Cc: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: RE: [TML] GTS-the program
> 
> 
> Thank you VERY much, this is a life saver. Now all I
> have to do is build a couple of ships, half a dozen
> PC's and about 10 NPC's by Friday. Peice of cake. :-)
> 
> --- Mike West <mjwest@caddocourt.com> wrote:
> > http://webpages.charter.net/tombont/
> > 
> > I *love* this program.  He does take some minor
> > liberties,
> > but it is more than close enough and it does the
> > ugly stuff
> > for you to make your life easier.
> > 
> > Mike West
> > mjwest@caddocourt.com 
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> > > [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf
> > Of John Hamill
> > > Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 10:45 PM
> > > To: tml@travellercentral.com
> > > Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Excuse me, but does anyone happen to know the URL
> > of
> > > the GTS program by Thomas Bont? All the addresses
> > I
> > > have for it are broken, and I really need that
> > program
> > > yesterday. I have a chance to get a two-part
> > GURPS:
> > > Traveller game together, during a weekend mini-con
> > at
> > > the local game store, and I really need a couple
> > of
> > > ships fast. Well, faster than I can do them by
> > hand,
> > > anyway. Thanks for your help (in advance).
> > > 
> > > John
> > > jwdh71@yahoo.com 
> > > 
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
> > > http://health.yahoo.com
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > TML mailing list
> > > TML@travellercentral.com
> > >
> >
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> > > 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
> http://health.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 23:00:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Tue Aug  6 22:00:05 2002
Subject: [TML] GURPS Interstellar Wars
In-Reply-To: <157.120f94ca.2a81edae@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001701c23dcf$39dd3c40$0b01a8c0@duck>

> > Many of you have probably already run across this, but for those who
> > haven't, check out Evil Stevie's Daily Illuminator
> > (http://www.sjgames.com/ill/) for the 8/6/02 entry.
>
> I hadn't see it yet, but it does sound interesting.  The only thing
> I hope is that this doesn't mean they are abandoning their alternate
> history.
> ----------------
>
> The license is for BOTH the alternate universe and the Interstellar Wars
> period, and we are not going to abandon the alternate timeline. There is
too
> much cool stuff that needs to see print.
>
> LKW

I figured this was the case, but just wanted to make sure.  Thank you
for the quick response.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 23:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Hamill)
Date: Tue Aug  6 22:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
In-Reply-To: <001601c23dce$de6fa050$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <20020807053026.71876.qmail@web21501.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Mike West <mjwest@caddocourt.com> wrote:
> When you click down, please also take note of the
> GURPS Character Maker.
> That should help with the second part.  :-)

Thanks, already seen and acquired, er, liberated, er
downloaded, yeah, that's it. :-)

> Oh, and I forgot to mention in the first message
> that it seems he
> renamed the program to GURPS Modular Vehicles (GMV).
>  The link on the 
> SJG site references a slightly older version that is
> still called GTS.
> 
> Mike West
> mjwest@caddocourt.com 

Thanks, I saw that too, I think he had done that after
he added the modular grav vehicle rules, much crunchy
goodness.

John
jwdh71@yahoo.com
 
> > 
> > 
> > Thank you VERY much, this is a life saver. Now all
> I
> > have to do is build a couple of ships, half a
> dozen
> > PC's and about 10 NPC's by Friday. Peice of cake.
> :-)
> > 
> > --- Mike West <mjwest@caddocourt.com> wrote:
> > > http://webpages.charter.net/tombont/
> > > 
> > > I *love* this program.  He does take some minor
> > > liberties,
> > > but it is more than close enough and it does the
> > > ugly stuff
> > > for you to make your life easier.
> > > 
> > > Mike West
> > > mjwest@caddocourt.com 
> > > 
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > 
> > > > Excuse me, but does anyone happen to know the
> URL
> > > of
> > > > the GTS program by Thomas Bont? All the
> addresses
> > > I
> > > > have for it are broken, and I really need that
> > > program
> > > > yesterday. I have a chance to get a two-part
> > > GURPS:
> > > > Traveller game together, during a weekend
> mini-con
> > > at
> > > > the local game store, and I really need a
> couple
> > > of
> > > > ships fast. Well, faster than I can do them by
> > > hand,
> > > > anyway. Thanks for your help (in advance).
> > > > 
> > > > John
> > > > jwdh71@yahoo.com 
> > > > 
> > > >
> __________________________________________________
> > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
> > > > http://health.yahoo.com
> > > >
> _______________________________________________
> > > > TML mailing list
> > > > TML@travellercentral.com
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> > > > 



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug  6 23:45:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Clint Rynners)
Date: Tue Aug  6 22:45:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
Message-ID: <OFDEC7001F.B4AA8375-ON42256C0E.001D1133@ko.com>

"Sufficiently advanced technology makes life on an airless
rockball possible - why would such a species need to preserve
its wildlife?"

Mr Kwon

I wondered about that myself, but had no ready answers, not being a
biologist. I partially agree that we would not need to preserve our
wildlife, but I believe that we need biomass in some form to survive.
Perhaps not as complex a system as we currently have on Earth, but in some
form that provides life support for us. We could speculate that an advanced
species could move beyond biological dependency - living as complex pieces
of code in a virtual reality, or in more robust machine forms. However, I
do think that before we reach this stage, we are going to remain dependent
on a biological system that we poorly understand and which we have severely
damaged. I am not a rabid vegan greeny, but I do believe that we have to
change the way we do things before we can marshal the resources to expand
off our world.

"If a warlike species
came to be dominated by a single high tech faction, through
limited nuclear war and genocidal action, and used this high
technology to permanently dominate and subjugate its
population, it would survive its birth into a nuclear age and
birth into a starfaring age."

Your contention that the solution to problems caused by exponential growth
does not have to be peaceful has merit,  I just don't believe that it will
happen with humanity now. At this stage of our global society, where one
power possibly has the military lead necessary to take the path you
suggest, the will is no longer there. This has something to do with a
hangover from the horrors that were visited on the world over the past 50
years. I do believe that if the USA mobilised fully, it could impose a
single world government, but I think the cost would be terrible.

Could it turned out differently? Possibly, but I don't have the frame of
reference for seeing this. In the one example we have to go on, a single
power has never had such a clear lead that an attempt at global control
would not  have entailed a great risk to the extermination of humanity. I
also note that the great warmongering empires have not persisted for very
long when they attempted to impose their version of manifest destiny on the
world. If you belong to a warmongering species, your opponents are not
going to roll over and play dead.

Having said all this, if sentient life is fairly widespread in our
universe, then the probability of of your scenario occuring could be high,
and likely to have advanced very far already. To misquote Fermi: "Where are
they" then? Even if your warmongering species exists, I retain my
contention that we would be regarded as more of a curiosity than a threat.
We are far more likely to be harvested in some way than simply
exterminated.

Regards

Clint Rynners

ps. after a flurry of typing, I read my response and note that rather than
being focused, it is a meander between a number of different ideas. I hope
it is at least slightly understandable :)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 00:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Tue Aug  6 23:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <20020807020627.6743406c80f7471790ae6758c061e780.in@keywest.kennett.net>

<snip good info.>

Thanks.  Anybody can provide with how the Royal Navy does it?  Has the USN
changed anything from the afore-explained procedure? 

>I think that because the Imperial Navy has such a long history, it
>probably has a lot of cool traditions. Anything that you threw in for
>color, like Marines in some traditional dress uniforms standing behind
>the "quarterdeck", the transfer of a baton, staff or whistle, maybe a
>reading of the ship's history...

Oddly enough....I ask this question because I was busy plotting a story and
realized that I, despite knowing a bit about military, military history,
military life, and military tech, suffered from some gapping holes in my
knowledge base.  That was one of it.

Thanks,

C.T.

"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....

 My Sale List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/Sale.txt
 My Want List: http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/wyncote/want.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 00:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Tue Aug  6 23:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <20020807054503.7786.43314.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentra
 l.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020807234111.009faa50@mailhost.efn.org>

> >Heh. Anyone remember the classic SF story "Allamagoosa?"
>
>Has anyone seen the offog?

"Please describe how official dog Peaslake came apart under gravitational 
stress..."


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 01:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Wed Aug  7 00:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <OFDEC7001F.B4AA8375-ON42256C0E.001D1133@ko.com>
Message-ID: <3D5174AB.19191.F0AB707@localhost>

On 7 Aug 2002, at 7:47, Clint Rynners wrote:

> I wondered about that myself, but had no ready answers, not being a
> biologist. I partially agree that we would not need to preserve our
> wildlife, but I believe that we need biomass in some form to survive.

At the current rates of extinction, somewhere between every six months 
and two years (depending on which biologist you listen to) we destroy one 
undiscovered medicine.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 02:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Wed Aug  7 01:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : OK, Now What?
Message-ID: <000801c23de9$3cfa8300$c69c67cb@robert>

John Kwon wrote:-
> First I keep reading that plasma weapons are not possible -
> the bolt would dissipate a short distance from the barrel.  
<snip>

One potential problem was with dissipation, the other with
the ridiculous energies required (there's a good line in 'Guns, Guns,
Guns'
comparing PGMP-like weapons to Bangalore torpedoes...)

There's been a lot of recent research into ball lightning. Maybe a
militarily useful amount of plasma can be packaged in this way.

Another alternative (as recently seen on rec.arts.sf.science) are
weapons
that fire very small projectiles (~1 gram mass) at high (10s of
kilometers/sec) velocities. These will leave plasma trails as they zip
through the air...


Robert O'Connor
Medico, gamer


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 02:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed Aug  7 01:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Spam Spam Spam Spam...
In-Reply-To: <19d.66884a1.2a7f37e7@aol.com>
References: <19d.66884a1.2a7f37e7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020807105440.0a18f64c.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Sun, 04 Aug 2002 22:07:35 -0400 (EDT)
GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:

> I would expect that any planet in Solomani space settled by Hawaiians would 
> either create or import vast amounts.  How widespread it would get really 
> depends on shelf-life and the viability of swine off Terra. It may just be 
> that pigs just don't taste the same when raised elsewhere, and so all Spam 
> comes from Terra...

Although very oddd, this would make SPAM a luxury product for offworlders...

Come to think of it, most products that come from special places are not considered luxuries there, but they probably are at other locations.

Groat Musk Perfume would be a nasty thing to hit the PCs with...  ;-)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 02:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed Aug  7 01:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] adventure
In-Reply-To: <1ac.6380721.2a7f37b7@aol.com>
References: <1ac.6380721.2a7f37b7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020807105753.493c4a62.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Sun, 04 Aug 2002 22:06:47 -0400 (EDT)
Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> Traveller Adventure: Comet Busters
> 
> For referees only.  If you intend to play this adventure, quit reading now 
> and direct your game referee to this page. 

*sound of harddrive saving file*

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 03:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Wed Aug  7 02:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: army usage
In-Reply-To: <159.121cd731.2a81f025@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D5193C8.30462.F843FC6@localhost>

On 6 Aug 2002, at 23:38, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:


>  >Tommy, you should do some research, too.  The Taliban was composed
>  >primarily of Pakistani and Saudi volunteers who called themselves
>  >"students" (of Islam).

> No.  To my knowledge, on that particular point he's right.  The Taliban 
> stronghold is in the large and populous tribes of southern Afghanistan.  As I
> understand it they are the largest single group of tribes and are in fact
> extensions of the tribes in Pakistan, which would be why Pakistan supported
> them.  It was Al Qaida that were "the Arabs", the foreigners.

Without wanting to get too bogged down into the ins and outs of 
Afghanistan, everybody is wrong and everybody is right. The Taliban 
themselves drew a hard core of support from the Pashtuns (the largest 
ethnic group in Afghanistan).

However, it is a mistake to think that the Taliban were supported by the 
majority of the Afghan population. While the Pashtuns are the largest 
group, they do not form a majority; nor did the Taliban draw their support 
from even a majority of Pashtuns. But the previous rulers (later known as 
the Northern Alliance) engaged in a vicious civil war (even by the standards 
of civil wars) and into this stepped the Taliban (with considerable Pakistani 
and Al Quida support). They started to get an upper hand in the civil war 
and the various tribal warlords saw what they thought was a winner and 
lined up behind them. This created a snowball and very quickly the Taliban 
were in charge.

Fast forward a few years, the former rulers (now known as the Northern 
Alliance) are being slowly ground down. Then enter the US and other 
Western nations with lavish air and logistic support. The various tribal 
warlords see what they think is a winner, line up behind them and the 
same snowball sweeps the Taliban out of power.

Now things have reverted back to the "classic" Afghani pattern. There is a 
"King" controlling Kabul in nominal charge of the country, but the real 
control is in the hands of the various tribal warlords. You have examples 
with US officers turning up at a tribal chieftain's camp and paying him in 
gold for the use of his warriors.

ObTrav: If you can't make a decent low tech govt 0 backwater out of that, 
you just aren't trying.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 04:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug  7 03:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] GURPS MISSILE WARFARE (was The big fleet debate)
In-Reply-To: <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com> <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com> <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net> <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net> <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>

hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> One interesting development was to build a specialized targeting
> computer.

Yes, I've since realised that it is well worth it.  I had thought that
surely a dedicated mainframe or macroframe would be too expensive, but
apparently not.


> The point defense lasers I built could easily attain that ROF bonus. 

Oh, sure.  I had thought you were talking about the standard lasers.
Higher RoF really isn't worth it under the GT rules though.


> Minor thoughts: part of that +10 bonus for Point defense comes of the fact
> that the missiles attempting to hit you have to come in from a specific
> "region".

If that is the reason, the designers overlooked a very important fact:
missiles can, and will, maneuver widely in flight.  The potential
approach region could be nearly 60 degrees wide without much effect on
impact energy.

I think the +10 point defense bonus was really an attempt to model a
"wait till you see the whites of their eyes" perfect firing solution.
Basically it should just say that the range penalty is -29, instead of
range -39 with a random +10 bonus.  Even then, it should really only
be about +5, appropriate for a range of 700 miles.  It doesn't do much
good to disable a kinetic-kill missile 0.3 seconds before it hits.


>  But you are correct.  There should be a MAX number of targets that
> can be engaged by a single laser group per turn equal to the max
> number of shots a single laser in the grouping and put out in a
> turn.

More precisely, equal to how many shots one laser can fire in the time
it takes a missile to get in from the laser's max range.  That time
will almost always be much less than a turn, typically a tenth.


> Using the concept that the current weapon systems are designed to
> operate against the current enemy weapon technology - try using the
> GURPS TRAVELLER missile designs first.  Then do an analysis of
> weapons in the TRAVELLER universe.

Yes, even the standard missiles defeat equal tonnage of standard point
defense, but not by a lot.  The problem is that there is *huge* room
for improvement in the missiles, but not much room for improvement in
the lasers.


> I am still flabberghasted that no one ever noticed that the FAST
> drug makes a FAR better alternative for cheap travel than does a
> freeze tube!

I'm not particularly surprised :)

Often it takes an outside opinion to spot such things.  That's why
game designers have playtests, after all!


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 04:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug  7 03:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <3D4F3B54.62F77189@mindspring.com>
References: <3e.22267ca2.2a7e2ef7@aol.com> <20020804173450.A23121@freeman.little-possums.net> <3346.64.8.3.28.1028448883.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <20020805075953.A24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <3436.64.8.3.28.1028520584.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <20020805215043.E25687@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D4F3B54.62F77189@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020807204852.B31397@freeman.little-possums.net>

alan spik wrote:
> I always considered the HE as essentially a frag grenade for
> ships. A small cloud of debris having a better chance to hit.

Yeah, that works too.  Maybe that accounts for the low impact damage
of missiles in G:Traveller compared to G:Vehicles.  80% of the
fragments miss...


> Thanks for a nasty tactic. The Forinians IMMTU are going to be using
> that. I was going to have to bring in more help. I think it will be
> quite a suprise to my players.

Work out what happens if the launching ship can get a run-up of, say,
0.1 AU at 6 gees.  That's a hundred hexes per turn to begin with.  If
the player's side is jumping in to a defended system, their jump flash
will mean that the defender has a very distinct sensor advantage.

I hope it's not the player's ship that gets hit.  200,000 points of
damage per missile is not conducive to a lengthy game session 8^O


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 04:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug  7 03:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
In-Reply-To: <20020806185605.50939.qmail@web10605.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020806185605.50939.qmail@web10605.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020807205547.C31397@freeman.little-possums.net>

Daniel Burns wrote:
> Unlike GT where it seems you can spot those nasty c-rocks at a few

"Argh! Don't say that word!"

> parsecs while they are ramped up to speed,

Sure, a decade or so later when the sensor information gets to you.
It's poking along at light-speed, remember?  :)


> and be waiting for the emergence a week later which will also show
> up easily, right in the middle of your defence solution.  Oops, a
> rant? Well at least 'twas short ;)

Yes, the emergence will be noted.  Not much good that does them
though.  You godda problem wiv dat? ;)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 07:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug  7 06:35:04 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Landgrab of Vilis
Message-ID: <b027a2b020e3.b020e3b027a2@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Date: Tuesday, August 6, 2002 3:08 am
Subject: [TML] re:  Landgrab of Vilis

> >From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
> 
> >If I'm doing Vilis, I think I had better do Garda-Vilis, 
> >unless someone has already done that one.
> 
> That's Tanoose to you, apologist scum!
> 
> This message has been brought to you by the Tanoose Freedom League.


IMTU, as long as the 1199th Infantry Regiment (Jump) (Commando) is 
stationed there, it's Garda-Vilis, thank you very much. ;-)

<<snip disclaimer>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 07:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed Aug  7 06:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D39@USCHM203>

>Leonard Erickson wrote:

>But shooting prisoners or mistreating them is against our *laws*. Which
>is one reason why a number of folks are more that a bit upswet about
>the fact that at the current time we are *violating* our own laws when
>it comes to the people taken prisoner in Afghanistan and held at
>Guantanamo Bay. They haven't been accorded prisoner of war status, nor
>have they been classified as criminals awaiting trial.

>We are damaging our own legal system *badly* by doing this. And that
>and other similar things we are doing are actually more apt to destroy
>the US than the actions of the terrorists!

Actually, these men are NOT POWs. Technically we could have them summarily
executed, and it would be perfectly legal, though would upset alot of
bleeding hearts. 
Partisans, saboteurs, spies, and other irregulars, which certainly includes
terrorists, are not protected by either formal or informal Rules of War or
the Geneva Convention.
During WWII those captured were shot out of hand most of the time, and it
was not considered illegal. I can't recall a single German officer being
tried for shooting such troops (as opposed to retaliating against civilians
for the actions of partisans, which IS illegal).
Allied soldiers and civilians who participated in such covert and irregular
actions were fully aware that they would not be treated as POWs if captured.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 07:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Aug  7 06:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Landgrab of Vilis
Message-ID: <200208071346.MGL01636@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

john groth, off on an adventure, says

>IMTU, as long as the 1199th Infantry Regiment (Jump) 
>(Commando) is stationed there, it's Garda-Vilis, thank you 
>very much. ;-)
>

Mark Urbin will be doing Garda-Vilis, and we'll look into 
putting something there.  The backdrop of the Broadsword 
adventure, however, seems to be that Vilis doesn't have a 
strong military presence at Garda-Vilis, and therefore they 
hire the Broadsword and its mercenaries.

Later in the adventure, merchant ships containing a Vilis 
infantry unit arrives, so this could be the 1199th.

It's odd.  Considering the sheer number of people on Vilis, 
one might imagine that it would have infantrymen coming out 
of their ears.

Also, another oddity - Vilis seems to have a TL 12 ship in 
its navy, although Vilis is not TL 12.  Is this an obsolete 
Imperial ship purchased by Vilis?  Is this sort of thing 
common?  
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 07:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Aug  7 06:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] John Beats The Dead Horse of Imperial Rules Of War...
Message-ID: <200208071354.MGL02479@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Hurrel, Brian says
>Technically we could have them summarily executed, and it 
>would be perfectly legal, though would upset alot of
>bleeding hearts. 

In RL there is the Hague and Geneva Convention.  Plenty of RL 
canon, and lawyers who can pontificate on the subject.

In Traveller, are there distinctions between soldiers, 
combatants (non-uniformed, ad hoc non-soldiers), and non-
combatants?  Obviously, the Hague Convention idea 
that "hollow points are bad" is right out, as the Gauss rifle 
round is described as a hollowpoint.  Not to mention that 
shooting people with a plasma gun is a bit more overkill than 
shooting them with a .50 BMG.

The player characters in any Traveller party would often fall 
into the category of illegal combatant.  They aren't wearing 
a uniform, they don't belong to an official army, and aren't 
part of an officially responsible chain of command.  In a war 
zone, if they were caught fighting an official military 
force, and they surrendered, would they be considered 
prisoners of war, or would they be shot out of hand after the 
local Imperial Marine lieutenant heard his platoon sergeant's 
report?

I'm assuming, of course, that someone in the party was stupid 
enough to fire at the Marines, and that by some miracle, the 
party was not annihilated by the return fire...
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 08:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Wed Aug  7 07:04:03 2002
Subject: MT Vehicles (was: Re: [TML] Landgrab )
References: <OF72559D70.D8259EC8-ONCA256C0E.0010593F@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <000401c23e1b$85fa2ec0$5600a8c0@imogen>

Hyphen wrote:
> Peter asked:
> >Does anyone have (or know of) some software  or  spreadsheet  for
> >creating ground vehicles using MT rules?  I need to create  about
> >a dozen different military vehicles for my Efate landgrab.
> 
> I created one, but it is a little basic and assumes you have the
> rules to plug the numbers in. (I did it years ago when I was
> worried about copyright and didn't know how to write a database
> spreadsheet. I still don't... ;-)
> 
> I downloaded one from the 'net... Ships III from Ace and The Dog's 
> website. However, I can't remember if it covers vehicles. It's a
> bit flaky and can crash unexpectedly, so save often!
>         http://www.ace-dog.com/downloads/downloads.htm
> 
> Would pulling a couple of designs from 101 Vehicles help? What are
> you after, specifically?

Ships III doesn't do vehicles (according to its manual there  are
no ground vehicle drives, etc).  I have been trying  to  use  the
DOS program for vehicles from the same site but it seems to  have
major flaws (either that or my own math  is  way  off).  And  101
Vehicles doesn't have the range I need.

I'm in the process of detailing out the armed forces  of  Efate's
Regular Army for a Landgrab.  As this is  a  place  with  a  high
chance of merc adventures (think  high-tech  'Nam  in  Traveller)
this detail seems more important than with  other  Landgrabs.  So
far I have a need for an MBT, an air  defence  AFV,  3  different
artillery AFVs, assorted AFVs for EW/ND/command/commo, a recovery
vehicle, a field repair vehicle, a G-Carrier with 3 variants,  an
APC with 5 variants, and a fast recon vehicle (possibly a  Trasea
grav bike for the last).  Before I'm done  I'll  probably  double
this list, and thats before I get to the COACC  aerospace  units,
the rear  echelon  support  vehicles,  or  the  typical  civilian
vehicles used by the militia on both sides!  If  anyone's  got  a
fetish for designing lots of MT vehicles I could pre-release  the
unit org charts for a better understanding of the requirements.

Hmmm ... or how about a TL 13 military vehicle rodeo (MT only)?

Regards PLST





From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 08:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed Aug  7 07:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Yankee Imperium (was Dehumanization)
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D3D@USCHM203>

>Clint Rynners wrote:
>[snip large essay]

>I do believe that if the USA mobilised fully, it could impose a
>single world government, but I think the cost would be terrible.

>[snip large essay]

I'm taking this snippet completely out of context, but it got me thinking
...sometimes...I wonder...then I realize he's right, the cost would be
terrible....
On the other hand, what would MY position be in this United States of the
World? Would it be like the Terrans taking over the Ziru Sirka?
Our friends up north, across the pond, and down under (you know who you are)
will rule alongside us----no, on second thought, we'll just allow you
limited home rule.
France will be ceded to Germany (to be ruled by appointed Governor David
Hasselhoff), just because. 
Everyone else shall fall under the shadow of the Golden Arches and Mickey
Mouse.
And Switzerland will not be allowed to remain neutral this time.
As for that troublesome part of the world in the news lately...well, with
one world government, there will be no need for nuclear weapons----date and
time of America Rules fireworks display shall be posted.
Oh, and Traveller Game Sessions will be mandatory through grades 9-12.

...I really need to get to bed earlier.....



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 08:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug  7 07:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump governor
Message-ID: <b35fd8b30977.b30977b35fd8@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: MJ Dougherty <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Date: Tuesday, August 6, 2002 12:30 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Jump governor

> 
> > I don't see these in High Guard - IMTU, they don't exist.  If
> > a Jump-4 ship jumps 2 parsecs, they only use 2 parsecs worth
> > of fuel.
> >
> > What was the last canon word on this subject, if any?
> 
> Marc's last statement (and confirmed to me in a question I asked a 
> whileago) was that if you have J-3 fuel and you J-1, you only use 
> J1 of fuel up.

IIRC, the concept of jump governors was based on the following:

1.  LBB2 states that all jump fuel is used in a single jump, regardless 
of the distance of the jump (I'll have to head back to my barracks room 
later to find the page reference; it may be from an earlier printing of 
LBB2).
2.  HG2 indicates that, as per MWM's statement referenced above, you use 
fuel only for the distance actually travelled.
3.  A "jump governor" was a device that could be retrofitted to LBB2 
ships' jump drives to give them HG2 levels of fuel efficiency.

As later versions of Traveller all assume jump fuel usage to be similar 
or superior to that of HG2, jump governors are no longer addressed.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 08:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Wed Aug  7 07:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D39@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <3D51D5BF.15510.1085EB73@localhost>

On 7 Aug 2002, at 9:38, Hurrel, Brian wrote:

> Actually, these men are NOT POWs. Technically we could have them summarily
> executed, and it would be perfectly legal, though would upset alot of bleeding
> hearts. Partisans, saboteurs, spies, and other irregulars, which certainly
> includes terrorists, are not protected by either formal or informal Rules of
> War or the Geneva Convention. During WWII those captured were shot out of hand
> most of the time, and it was not considered illegal. I can't recall a single
> German officer being tried for shooting such troops (as opposed to retaliating
> against civilians for the actions of partisans, which IS illegal). Allied
> soldiers and civilians who participated in such covert and irregular actions
> were fully aware that they would not be treated as POWs if captured.

The rules changed after the 2nd WW (in response to exactly the situation 
you describe). Irregular combantants are explicitly covered now. Check 
Article 4 of the 1949 Geneva Convention on POWs (the Al Quida prisioners 
can make a pretty darn strong case under 4:2 BTW):

Article 4
A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons 
belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power 
of the enemy:
1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as 
members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.
2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, 
including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party 
to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this 
territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, 
including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following 
conditions:
(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
(c) That of carrying arms openly;
(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and 
customs of war.
3. Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a 
government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.
4. Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being 
members thereof, such as civilian members of military aircraft crews, war 
correspondents, supply contractors, members of labour units or of services 
responsible for the welfare of the armed forces, provided that they have 
received authorization from the armed forces which they accompany, who 
shall provide them for that purpose with an identity card similar to the 
annexed model.
5. Members of crews, including masters, pilots and apprentices, of the 
merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, 
who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions 
of international law.
6. Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the 
enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without 
having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they 
carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.

BTW its incumbant on the *detaining* power to disprove a potential POWs 
status. When in doubt, they have to be accorded POW status until the 
detaining power proves that they don't.

You'll also find similar articles in the 1975 Hague Conventions and the 1987 
Geneva Declaration on Terrorism.

ObTrav: Not much, how many PC mercenary groups retain a lawyer to 
keep upto date on the latest intepretations of the Rules of War.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 08:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Wed Aug  7 07:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] John Beats The Dead Horse of Imperial Rules Of War...
In-Reply-To: <200208071354.MGL02479@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D51DB9E.19603.109CDB0F@localhost>

On 7 Aug 2002, at 9:54, John T. Kwon wrote:

> The player characters in any Traveller party would often fall 
> into the category of illegal combatant.  They aren't wearing 
> a uniform, they don't belong to an official army, and aren't 
> part of an officially responsible chain of command.  In a war 
> zone, if they were caught fighting an official military 
> force, and they surrendered, 

If the relevant Interstellar Conventions follow the relevant RL ones, they 
could well be "legal combatants". You don't need to be part of an official 
chain of command, just have a some one clearly in charge (ie a unit CO). 
You don't need to be wearing a uniform, just a "fixed distinctive sign 
recognizable at a distance" (a simple armband will do). And you don't need 
to be part of the official army, just recognised by one of the parties. Heck 
you've even got protection for "Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who 
on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the 
invading forces" (depending on the circumstances). I'd imagine that the 
various Ine Givar Cadre's in FFW could well come under these catagories.

However, I think most PC would fail due to the "Conduct their operations in 
accordance with the laws and customs of war" (how many PC groups have 
you seen that would meet that criteria :*>)
 
> would they be considered 
> prisoners of war, or would they be shot out of hand after the 
> local Imperial Marine lieutenant heard his platoon sergeant's 
> report?

Assuming they actually made it into custody (ie the platoon didn't just gun 
them down and worry about the legal niceties later), I doubt they'd be shot 
out of hand. Far better for the Marine Lt to play it safe and send them up 
the line, and leave the decisions as to their combatant status to someone 
less likely to face a disciplinary board for getting it wrong.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 09:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Aug  7 08:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Landgrab of Vilis
Message-ID: <20020807150956.2D7CE4509@mo120usjc.palm.net>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:
>Mark Urbin will be doing Garda-Vilis, and we'll look into  
>putting something there.  The backdrop of the Broadsword  
>adventure, however, seems to be that Vilis doesn't have a  
>strong military presence at Garda-Vilis, and therefore they  
>hire the Broadsword and its mercenaries. 
>Later in the adventure, merchant ships containing a Vilis  
>infantry unit arrives, so this could be the 1199th. 

Jump Commandos sounds more like a well funded Imperial unit to me.
Some number cruncher will probably point out that every TL 4+ planet with a population over 500,000 can afford it's own regiment of Jump Commandos though. :-)

>It's odd.  Considering the sheer number of people on Vilis,  
>one might imagine that it would have infantrymen coming out  
>of their ears. 

This could be political function. 
IMTU, Vilis has a large urban underclass that produces violent gangs.  These gangers, when rounded up, are often given the choice of the Imperial Marines or something that would make a stint in MyMines (tm) look good.

So, if Vilis were to set up a good 'ginder' boot camp process (like the Pournelle CoDo Marines), the could churn out decent Light Infantry.
Useful for merc work as well as local defense.  

>Also, another oddity - Vilis seems to have a TL 12 ship in  
>its navy, although Vilis is not TL 12.  Is this an obsolete  
>Imperial ship purchased by Vilis?  Is this sort of thing  
>common?   

My memory says yes, according to canon.  The Imperial Navy (or perhaps even the Sector Navy) probably gave them a good price for it.

>FRONT TOWARD ENEMY 
----------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere. 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 09:27:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Aug  7 08:27:08 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <3D5174AB.19191.F0AB707@localhost>
References: <3D5174AB.19191.F0AB707@localhost>
Message-ID: <m365ymsna4.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> writes:
> 
> At the current rates of extinction, somewhere between every six
> months and two years (depending on which biologist you listen to) we
> destroy one undiscovered medicine.

We destroy one natural source of an undiscovered medicine, perhaps.
But we can synthesise just about anything these days.  My best friend
is a biochemist (well, almost--getting his PhD in a year), and if I
remember our conversations correctly, most biochemistry these days is
_not_ `oh, some old wives' tale says this is good; let's try it,' but
rather `let's see which substances we can squeeze through _this_
barrier,' i.e. it's pretty much known what most substances are going
to do; the trick is to get them through cell walls, preserve them
until they hit the right parts of the body, keep them from hitting the
wrong parts.

The company he's interning with essentially takes a patented molecule,
developes a thousand variations on it, and sells those variations back
to the original patenter, IIRC.

But perhaps there are practicing biochemists on the list who have
better knowledge than dimly-remembered conversations between
students...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it
flips over, pinning you underneath.  At night, the ice weasels
come.                                          --Matt Groening

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 10:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Aug  7 09:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] GTS-the program
Message-ID: <F147AHJb3f9oUwnX8hD000049be@hotmail.com>

From: John Hamill <jwdh71@yahoo.com>

     "I have a chance to get a two-part GURPS:Traveller game together, 
during a weekend mini-con at the local game store, and I really need a 
couple of ships fast. Well, faster than I can do them by hand, anyway."


Mr. Hamill,

     IIRC, the BITS website has a wonderful, massive, and free PDF download 
chocked full of G:T ships.  Al TLs, all races, all functions too.  Why build 
ships when someone else has done the work for you already?  :)
     A free PDF reader can be downloaded at the Adobe webiste too.
     Google should point you to both locations.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 10:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed Aug  7 09:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15FA@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

We aim to please :)  And it was three days ago ;)  Only one shot of some stuff I'm working on for BITS, and it'll be replaced with a better shot shortly, but you get the idea ;D
Jesse


Love it! Some friendly banter between Penguin Boy and The Polygon Kid.

I'm settling down with some popcorn.

;-)  ;-)

(BTW Jesse, when your next page update going to happen? %^)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 10:17:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed Aug  7 09:17:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15F9@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Well, if Marc'll ever get back to me on it, that could happen ;)  Stay tuned...
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: David Smart [mailto:jurrubin@earthlink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 5:15 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .


Mark C. posted:
> 
> Jesse DeGraff <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> writes:
> 
> > What about artists?  ;)
> 
> Sure, why not?  Do you know any? >^)
> 
>     - Mark C.

Oh, gawd, puh-LEEZE let him on it. Maybe SJG will one
day market his graphics on T-shirts (HINT, HINT!).

Do you know how difficult it is for me to NOT
print T-shirts of his stuff for personal use?

David Smart
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 10:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed Aug  7 09:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D4D@USCHM203>

>Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance wrote:

>The rules changed after the 2nd WW (in response to exactly the situation 
>you describe). Irregular combantants are explicitly covered now. Check 
>Article 4 of the 1949 Geneva Convention on POWs (the Al Quida prisioners 
>can make a pretty darn strong case under 4:2 BTW):

I didn't know about that, though it does sound reasonable in may cases which
can be considered "gray areas".

>"(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and 
>customs of war."

Obviously actively engaged terrorists violate this requirement, but I have
to admit that it might be a tough case to prove against Al Quaida members
captured in Afghanistan. Legally prove. In reality, I know it, you know it,
and they know it.
Unless you make the entire organization responsible for 9/11 and other acts
of terrorism in an attempt to destroy the US, which is their stated aim.
They even have manuals for various acts, and explicitly condone the use of
torture for the cause (for the record, those in the US advocating the same
are idiots of the worst order). 
So IMHO, any Al Quaida are fair game for the firing squad.

Apologies for off-topic, though it does bring up some interesting threads
regarding how player characters that are not part of an official army would
be treated.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 10:22:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed Aug  7 09:22:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15FB@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

I don't have a problem with personal use, provided 1.you buy my shirts if/when I can get a deal worked out with Marc ;D and 2.you only use non-SJG images that are on my site.  Oh, and a fine-print copyright notice should be added to the picture ;)  If you don't have the graphics software to do it, let me know and I'd be happy to.  I may even render a better/bigger/uncompressed picture for you to use if ask nicely ;)
Jesse

-----Original Message-----
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
[mailto:david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au]
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 7:33 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .


Dear Folks -

David Smart wrote:
>Do you know how difficult it is for me to NOT
>print T-shirts of his stuff for personal use?

I'd been thinking about this for a while, too. A copyright question that I 
don't know the answer to is, "Is it 'fair use' if I put a Jesse picture on 
ONE T-Shirt for my own use?"

The alternative I thought of was asking Jesse for permission to make _two_ 
shirts, and sending him the second one as "payment". ;-)

Jesse, your thoughts?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 10:31:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Aug  7 09:31:19 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <20020807162904.96842.qmail@web20418.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com

>A Hollywood version of the change of command (and a damned good 
>performance by Humphrey Bogart) can be seen in THE CAINE MUTINY. A 

Funny that you should mention that film as I'm about to start eating
the strawberries I brought from home.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 10:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Aug  7 09:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: army usage
In-Reply-To: <159.121cd731.2a81f025@aol.com>
References: <159.121cd731.2a81f025@aol.com>
Message-ID: <p04330102b976fd8e5a14@[198.123.22.179]>

At 11:38 PM -0400 8/6/02, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
>  >>I really think you should do some research on the situation in
>  >>Afganisthan and how everything went down before blurting things out.
>  >>The main population of Afganisthan was opposed to the Taliban, which
>  >>is mainly from a tribe to the south west (I think).
>  >
>  >Tommy, you should do some research, too.  The Taliban was composed
>  >primarily of Pakistani and Saudi volunteers who called themselves
>  >"students" (of Islam).
>
>No.  To my knowledge, on that particular point he's right.  The Taliban
>stronghold is in the large and populous tribes of southern Afghanistan.

Except the Taliban had lost a lot of support even amongst the Pashtun.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 10:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Aug  7 09:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <200208071651.MGR02547@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Wait a minute.  If it's a rule of men, and not laws, it's 
entirely possible that a conquering force can arbitrarily 
dictate who gets shot without a trial just by saying so.

And the neat thing about it is that they don't have to resort 
to legal arguments, twisted vocabulary, or "kid' logic.
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 10:57:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Aug  7 09:57:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <200208071651.MGR02547@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028739389.7419.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> Wait a minute.  If it's a rule of men, and not laws, it's 
> entirely possible that a conquering force can arbitrarily 
> dictate who gets shot without a trial just by saying so.

Yeah.  That statement, to the degree it's true, is certainly one of the less
pleasant aspects of the 3I.  If you assume a real 'noblisse oblige' it can be a
positive effect, but in general it's born to be abused.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:01:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:01:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : OK, Now What?
Message-ID: <20020807165913.28112.qmail@web20417.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>

>There's been a lot of recent research into ball lightning. Maybe a
>militarily useful amount of plasma can be packaged in this way.

Fans of the Command and Conquer computer game will be familiar with
the tesla coil.  The Germans were working on a device like this
during WW2, but must not have gotten it operational.

--Glenn


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <20020807170626.8059.qmail@web20418.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>

>Actually, these men are NOT POWs. Technically we could have them 
>summarily executed, and it would be perfectly legal, though would
>upset alot of bleeding hearts. 
>
>Partisans, saboteurs, spies, and other irregulars, which certainly 
>includes terrorists, are not protected by either formal or informal
>Rules of War or the Geneva Convention.
>
>During WWII those captured were shot out of hand most of the time, 
>and it was not considered illegal. I can't recall a single German
>officer being tried for shooting such troops (as opposed to 

Yes, if you have the time and resources, it makes sense to
interrogate them first and shoot them later -- or, interrogate them
first, make some of the information public and attribute it to the
detainees, and return them to their homes, where their former
colleagues will kill them for snitching.  

Hmm ... I wonder if my current set of players (playing police
officers) will think of that approach to interrogation.  

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <3D506907.B582A8E7@mindspring.com>
References: <200208070000.MFJ02183@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <3D506907.B582A8E7@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m3wur2r423.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

alan spik <babyduck@mindspring.com> writes:
> 
> I don't think the Navy was that organized.  Read with amusement
> Doug's post about marching.  At every CoC I attended, we were given
> a time to be there.  We were expected to, and did meander our way
> over and meet the Chief who would tell us where to stand.  Usually a
> big gaggle(Pod?), then the Master Chief would come out and make
> everyone straiten up in ranks, and the show would get started about
> thirty minutes later.  I remember several people falling out.

That sounds like the Navy I know.  At the All-Academy Balls the West
Pointers (great giants of men) would stand there, stiff and formal,
when introduced.  The marine services (Navy, Coast Guards, Merchant
Marines) were much more relaxed--they're sailors, after all.  The Air
Force was an odd thing: some tried to be disciplined and failed, while
others didn't try at all.  In fact, there wasn't a year that one of
'em didn't show up in the wrong uniform--or showed up in civilian
clothes!  Pretty girls, though.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The only kind of freedom that the mob can imagine is freedom to annoy
and oppress its betters, and that is precisely the kind that we mainly
have.                                                   --H.L. Mencken

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V.I. Parviainen)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <m365ymsna4.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <3D5174AB.19191.F0AB707@localhost> <m365ymsna4.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020807171434.GA26680@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 09:26:27AM -0600, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> > At the current rates of extinction, somewhere between every six
> > months and two years (depending on which biologist you listen to) we
> > destroy one undiscovered medicine.
> 
> We destroy one natural source of an undiscovered medicine, perhaps.
> But we can synthesise just about anything these days.  

Well, yes, but wouldn't it be a bit easier to synthesise a compound if
you had it beforehand, instead of trying to duplicate the effects from
an old tale?

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:20:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:20:15 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Yankee Imperium
Message-ID: <20020807171936.65485.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>

>Clint Rynners wrote:
>>I do believe that if the USA mobilised fully, it could impose a
>>single world government, but I think the cost would be terrible.

>I'm taking this snippet completely out of context, but it got me 
>thinking ...sometimes...I wonder...then I realize he's right, the
>cost would be terrible....
>On the other hand, what would MY position be in this United States 

No one likes us 
I don't know why. 
We may not be perfect 
But heaven knows we try. 
But all around even our old friends put us down. 
Let's drop the big one and see what happens. 

We give them money 
But are they grateful? 
No they're spiteful 
And they're hateful. 
They don't respect us so let's surprise them; 
We'll drop the big one and pulverize them. 

Now Asia's crowded 
And Europe's too old. 
Africa's far too hot, 
And Canada's too cold. 
And South America stole our name. 
Let's drop the big one; there'll be no one left to blame us. 

Bridge: 
We'll save Australia; 
Don't wanna hurt no kangaroo. 
We'll build an all-American amusement park there; 
They've got surfing, too. 

Well, boom goes London, 
And boom Paris. 
More room for you 
And more room for me. 
And every city the whole world round 
Will just be another American town. 
Oh, how peaceful it'll be; 
We'll set everybody free; 
You'll have Japanese kimonos, baby, 
There'll be Italian shoes for me. 
They all hate us anyhow, 
So let's drop the big one now. 
Let's drop the big one now. 

Randy Newman, Political Science, from the album Sail Away, copied
from
http://www.leoslyrics.com/listlyrics.php?sid=%EEe%3Cy%A1P8%06

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020807171434.GA26680@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028741494.6212.ajackson@ping>

Mikko V.I. Parviainen writes:
> 
> Well, yes, but wouldn't it be a bit easier to synthesise a compound if
> you had it beforehand, instead of trying to duplicate the effects from
> an old tale?

Not exactly the right question.  The question is whether it's more efficient to
chase down old wives' tales, or to ignore the old wives' tales and attempt to
synthesize drugs based on prior understanding of what they ought to do.

The herbal movement notwithstanding, most pharmaceutical companies don't seem
to find chasing down old wives' tales, particularly extremely obscure old
wives' tales, to be really worth doing.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020807171434.GA26680@mimosa.hut.fi>
References: <3D5174AB.19191.F0AB707@localhost>
 <m365ymsna4.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
 <20020807171434.GA26680@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <m37kj2r2wf.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Mikko V.I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi> writes:
>
> > We destroy one natural source of an undiscovered medicine,
> > perhaps.  But we can synthesise just about anything these days.
> 
> Well, yes, but wouldn't it be a bit easier to synthesise a compound
> if you had it beforehand, instead of trying to duplicate the effects
> from an old tale?

But that's the point: as I understand it we've pretty well exhausted
the use of old tales and have moved on.  Not that I discount the
possibility that a remarkable new medicine could be lurking in the
rainforest; simply that I discount the probability.

As I understand it, science understand the effects of most substances:
the trick is to get them where they're needed and not where they're
not.  Which means designing a molecule which will let a drug slip
through one barrier but not another.  Which is tricky.

But, as I wrote, I could be awfully, woefully, terribly wrong.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Of course, if you're writing the code to control a cruise missile, you
may not actually need an explicit loop exit.  The loop will be
terminated automatically at the appropriate moment.
                         -Programming Perl, 3rd Ed.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <3D5050EB.9050601@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <003401c23d98$a70d8680$da29f7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020807102826.009e6ec0@mindspring.com>

At 03:42 PM 8/6/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Fred Ramen wrote:
>
>>I'm probably in a tiny minority here, but I remain unconvinced about
>>Arbellatra's strategic brilliance. Certainly her conduct of the 2FW does not
>>seem to have a personal stamp upon it the way Norris' saving strategy in the
>>5FW does. Canonical info on the war is spotty, of course, but it is
>>described as a "holding action" accompanied by commerce raids. When the
>>dreadnoughts are finally constructed, Arbellatra does not lead them on a
>>reconquest of the Marches, but merely forces a stalemate...and then promptly
>>concedes territory to the Zhodani, as well as separating several other
>>worlds from the Imperium.
>
>Probably this is because she knows she needs to a) bring an end ASAP to 
>the 2FW, and b) She needs those Dreadnaughts to end the rebellion, rather 
>than throwing them into a likely bloody fight to beat the Zhodani back.
>
>The Zho's, being in an expansionist mood at the moment, are only too happy 
>to help her achieve her goals.

I've always seen the Zhodani motivation in the Frontier Wars as keeping the 
Imperium at bay.  The 1st and 2nd wars removed the Imperium  from 
previously settled Zhodani territories and established a buffer zone.  The 
3 - 5 felt more like disruptive actions, designed to keep the Marches 
scared and on the defensive.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:55:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:55:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra (WAS: warship optimization in traveller
 CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208061330150.8694-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
References: <3.0.5.16.20020806113510.45efd91c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020807103324.009f4440@mindspring.com>

At 01:32 PM 8/6/02 -0700, you wrote:
>On Tue, 6 Aug 2002, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>
> > Good model.  I was thinking a bit of Hitler, personally.  Same kind of
> > personal magnetism.
>
>EEK!!!  But I like Arbellatra!

Hey, so do I!  But if you scrub off what he did wh\ith it, the fact remains 
that Hitler was one of the greatest orators in the 20th Century.  His 
magnetism and leadership ability took a tiny fringe party to power in ten 
years.  Picture that kind of ability in an Imperial Admiral, already known 
for her war-fighting ability.  Troops would flock to her.

> > She had a good line.  In this aspect, she's much like St. Jean d'Arc.  The
> > "Maid of Mora" driving to restore the Imperium!  She would find ready
> > converts in Deneb and Corridor. She probably played a different game with
> > the Vilani.  Promises of increased power in the court, culminating with her
> > son's marriage to a Vilani noblewoman in 679.  As she drew closer to
> > Capital, I'm sure that pretender fleets defected en masse rather than face
> > annihilation.
>
>I like Arbellatra la Pucelle much better than Arbellatra as Hitler.

Joan was more message and fire, Adolf sheer energy.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:55:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:55:46 2002
Subject: [TML] army usage
In-Reply-To: <a6.2a3d2ddd.2a81b626@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020807103810.009f6ec0@mindspring.com>

At 07:30 PM 8/6/02 -0400, you wrote:
>
>  >Seriously, from our point of view, Afghanistan was as close to a perfect
>  >situation as you can get.  All we had to do was provide air & logisitcal
>  >support, and the population in the are being attacked wasn't too thrilled
>  >with the current government.  They all aren't going to be that way.
>
>(Actually, it wasn't the population that opposed the Taliban.  it was the
>Northern Alliance.  The only reason the NA isn't pillaging the citizens like
>they were doing before the Taliban kicked them out is because they're
>preoccupied spending all that money that we bribed them with.  Sort of a
>Marshall Plan for bandit chiefs.  Seems to have worked so far.)

Really?  So all those people dancing in the streets, lining up to be 
shaved, digging up radios and TVs, kissing the feet of NA soldiers were 
mirages?

Do a little research, please.

>Well, one wouldn't think so, but as I understand it the plans for attacking
>Iraq involve a repeat of Afghanisan, using "rebels" in the north and south to
>do the actual fighting while we provide airstrikes.  Again:  "Army?  What
>Army?"  To my knowledge the army made not one twitch towards deployment
>during the Afghan battle -- either the authorities were supremely confident
>that they didn't need the army, or they had misgivings about deploying it in
>its present condition.  One wouldn't think Iraq would roll up so handily, but
>no-one thought the Taliban would roll up so fast either.  Apparently we're
>going to find out.

The 75th Regiment (Ranger), the 101st Airborne (Air Assault) and various 
Special Forces groups were all mobilized and on the ground.  Rangers were 
in Afghanistan before the main force of Taliban ceased fighting.  Troops 
from the 82nd Airborne and the 10th Mountain Divisions are still over there 
in the thick of things.

Not one twitch?  The 3rd Infantry Division (Mechanized) was put on 24-hour 
alert and ordered to start preparing for a possible deployment.  Putting 
15,000 men and all their vehicles (Bradleys, Abrams, MLRS) on warning is a 
bit more than a twitch.  I personally know several Army personnel who 
served and were shot at with great enthusiasm.

>On the other hand, if the latest briefs are any indication and we launch any
>military action against the house of Saud, then I think we're going to have
>to occupy everything from Libya to Jakarta.  That _will_ require an army, and
>I'm not sure we have one.

Sure we do!  We'll draft you.  :)

-- 

Douglas E. Berry   gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Cry "CHEEBLE!" and let slip the hamsters of war!



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 11:56:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug  7 10:56:01 2002
Subject: [TML] OT:  December ARPC shoot
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F15F3@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020807104836.009f6c50@mindspring.com>

At 04:58 PM 8/6/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Good to hear!  I'm desperately going to try to make it up again finally, 
>as the financial situation has improved a little.  Providing of course 
>that I can get a new roomate and don't have to keep paying twice the rent 
>like I am now :(  Also, I'm going to invite Erin again, and maybe I can 
>get my "girlfriend" to go too ;)

I too, shall try to make it up.  I'll be at OryCon the week before that (as 
Gaming GOH, if you can believe that, so unless you can give me rifde, no 
way I can afford to fly twice in that length of time.

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"I'm just trying to evict them. Frogs never pay."
                             - Rose Platt



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 12:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug  7 11:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <sd4ff8f8.002@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020807105540.009efb90@mindspring.com>

At 04:27 PM 8/6/02 -0400, you wrote:
>I think that because the Imperial Navy has such a long history, it
>probably has a lot of cool traditions. Anything that you threw in for
>color, like Marines in some traditional dress uniforms standing behind
>the "quarterdeck", the transfer of a baton, staff or whistle, maybe a
>reading of the ship's history...

Marines in their Dress Maroon, cutlasses raised in present arms.  By 
tradition, the junior Marine in the compliment steps forward, presents his 
cutlass hilt first to the new commander, and says "Sir!  The Marine Force 
is present and ready for you orders."  The new officer salutes the Marine, 
and gives the order "resume your stations."


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 12:17:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Aug  7 11:17:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Friday
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEFDILAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

I've tried to reach you by phone no answer.  
Please email me the information regarding when
Jonie (Joani, Joany (?)) wants to meet
and where too.

I've got to go out so email is a better bet.

________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 12:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Aug  7 11:22:03 2002
Subject: ignore RE: [TML] Friday
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEFDILAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEFEILAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

sorry wrong address, please ignore

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John-Martin
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 11:13 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Friday
Importance: High


I've tried to reach you by phone no answer.  
Please email me the information regarding when
Jonie (Joani, Joany (?)) wants to meet
and where too.

I've got to go out so email is a better bet.

________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 12:34:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Aug  7 11:34:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Three More Silly Questions
In-Reply-To: <m3wur2r423.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <3D506907.B582A8E7@mindspring.com>
 <200208070000.MFJ02183@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <3D506907.B582A8E7@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020807133436.00a777f0@minn.net>

At 11:07 AM 8/7/2002 -0600, Robert Uhl wrote:

>That sounds like the Navy I know.  At the All-Academy Balls the West
>Pointers (great giants of men) would stand there, stiff and formal,
>when introduced.  The marine services (Navy, Coast Guards, Merchant
>Marines) were much more relaxed--they're sailors, after all.  The Air
>Force was an odd thing: some tried to be disciplined and failed, while
>others didn't try at all.  In fact, there wasn't a year that one of
>'em didn't show up in the wrong uniform--or showed up in civilian
>clothes!  Pretty girls, though.

Okay.

Need some information about secondary-level military boarding schools (or
boarding schools in general).

Is there a tradition of senior students supervising (or oppressing) younger
students? If so, can you descibe the process? Off list please.

Where can I find UWP stats for the Uthe subsector? Canon if possible.


Les


==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
The last cup of coffee you will ever need.
				-- www.hasturhousecoffee.com
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 12:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Burns)
Date: Wed Aug  7 11:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
Message-ID: <20020807183944.5641.qmail@web10602.mail.yahoo.com>

Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 20:55:47 +1000
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>

Daniel Burns wrote:

> Unlike GT where it seems you can spot those nasty
(inflamatory reference deleted) at a few


"Argh! Don't say that word!"

Well, yeah, I was kinda playing fire there using
'that' as an example, but the flames are soooo pretty
;)


> parsecs while they are ramped up to speed,


"Sure, a decade or so later when the sensor
information gets to you.
It's poking along at light-speed, remember?   [:)] 

D'oh, must stop sleep-typing, I knew that of course
but my brain was awol :) "Would you believe... Our top
psychics are manning our sensor grid right now, and
can get a precognitive firing solution weeks or even
years before the target shows up?" ;)


Seriously Tim, thanks for being so kind to this
insomnia inebriated poster :) your courteousness is
noted.

Dan "far-trader" Burns



______________________________________________________________________ 
Post your ad for free now! http://personals.yahoo.ca

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 12:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed Aug  7 11:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D5A@USCHM203>

>John T. Kwon wrote:

>Wait a minute.  If it's a rule of men, and not laws, it's 
>entirely possible that a conquering force can arbitrarily 
>dictate who gets shot without a trial just by saying so.

>And the neat thing about it is that they don't have to resort 
>to legal arguments, twisted vocabulary, or "kid' logic.

One of the most frightening things I have ever read was a description, by a
fascist, though I can't remember if he was Italian or German, on the
absolute power of the state. I wish I had the exact quote, but it went
something like this:

"If the state says that 2 + 2 = 5, then it is so, and any citizen will tell
you it is so."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D5A@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <B976BD70.68DB2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/7/02 11:56 AM, Hurrel, Brian at brian.hurrel@eds.com wrote:

>=20
> "If the state says that 2 + 2 =3D 5, then it is so, and any citizen will te=
ll
> you it is so."

2 + 2 does equal 5, for very large values of 2.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>

Hello Folks,
   This is in response to Tim's comments regarding point defense lasers.  I 
have a few of them in all, so this is just one of many incoming 
designs.  All of them are TL 12 designs for use with GURPS 
TRAVELLER.  Please note that I was not happy with the "Logic" of having 
turret weapons who required that their "energy power plant be part of the 
main shipboard power plant.  Thus, *ALL* lasers designed by CGI include 
their own power generators.

TL 12
The SL328 is a 328.1 Mega-Joule laser designed to replace the standard 
405-Mj laser. It features an independent power supply such that a power 
loss within the ship does not mean the laser cannot fire. The SL328 comes 
with a battery pack that holds 328,100 kilowatt seconds of power along with 
a fusion generator that produces 14,578 Kilowatts. Total volume taken up by 
the SL328 is 490 cubic feet. Due to the size of this laser, it cannot be 
used in Streamlined turrets.


ROF:                            1/60
Half Damage Range:              2
Max Damage Range:               7
Accuracy:                       32
Damage:                 5d6 x 90 (2)
Spaces:                 .97
Mass in Tons:                   7.33
Cost in MCr.:                   .35
Rate of Fire Bonus:             +7


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:12:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:12:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D5C@USCHM203>

>Glenn M. Goffin wrote:

>Yes, if you have the time and resources, it makes sense to
>interrogate them first and shoot them later -- or, interrogate them
>first, make some of the information public and attribute it to the
>detainees, and return them to their homes, where their former
>colleagues will kill them for snitching

Great story from Vietnam. As usual can't remember the source:

A local village mayor was known to be a VC supporter, but no one could prove
it or do anything about it.
One day some American intelligence types, after a firefight, threw some
recovered VC bodies onto a jeep and drove into the village. They drove up to
the mayor's house.
Now, you have to picture this. The VC bodies are in full view of everyone in
the village.
As far as I know, the mayor did not speak English, and the Americans did not
speak Vietnamese.
The Americans smiled, clapped the horrified mayor on the back, and unloaded
gifts of food, a radio, bundles of cash, etcetera, and drove off.
Three guesses on how long the mayor lived after that?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807151954.024d5a80@mail.buffnet.net>

The SL47 laser system was designed mainly as a trinary weapon system in 
that it works best when used in groups of three. CDI is firmly committed to 
the idea of Accuracy through Firepower, and as such, tends to design it's 
lasers with an eye towards getting the most performance with higher rates 
of fire. The SL47 is designed mainly as a compromise between point defense 
and offense. It will affect any ship who has a DR rating of 500 or less, 
better than 50% of the time. Couple this with the SL47's RoF accuracy, and 
targets out to 30,000 miles away can be affected with a decent chance of 
success. Using a well trained gunner, targets with a displacement size of 
10 tons have been hit 4.6% of the time using a 20 minute firing duration. 
Statistics use as a baseline, a Mark IV Target program. Using a top of the 
line TL11 target computer, running a MarkXII target program, the success 
rate changed from 4.6% success rate to a 62.5% success rate. When used in a 
triple turret, using the standard MarkIV target program, the SL47 changed 
from a 4.6% success rate to a 25.9% success rate.
The SL47 uses a self contained power generator rated at 2,088 Kilowatts, 
and uses a battery rated at 125,302 Kilowatt seconds. Empty volume left 
over after being used in a Standard turret is 1.5 cubic feet in a 
streamlined turret, or 101.5 cubic feet in a non-streamlined turret.

ROF:				10/60
Half Damage Range:		1
Max Damage Range:		3
Accuracy:			30
Damage:			5d6 x 34(2)
Spaces:			.8
Mass in Tons:			3.79
Cost in MCr.:			.19
Rate of Fire Bonus:		+10


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807152459.024ebdf0@mail.buffnet.net>

TL 12
The SL828 is a super laser designed to use all three spaces in an 
unstreamlined turret. Like all of the other SL series lasers, it contains 
its own self contained fusion power plant. It uses a 2,207,448 kilowatt 
second battery, and the power plant produces 36,790 kilowatts of energy. 
Total volume used is 1,495 cubic feet, leaving 5 cubic feet of volume in a 
standard Imperial turret. Due to its higher rate of fire, along with its 
superior penetration value - the SL828 makes for a heavy hitting weapon 
system. The SL828 cannot be used in unstreamlined turrets.



ROF:                            2/60
Half Damage Range:              4
Max Damage Range:               11
Accuracy:                       33
Damage:                 5d6 x 143(2)
Spaces:                 2.99
Mass in Tons:                   20.65
Cost in MCr.:                   .98
Rate of Fire Bonus:             +8


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:19:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:19:27 2002
Subject: [TML] army usage
Message-ID: <89.1bf4851a.2a82cc79@aol.com>

In a message dated 07/08/02 00:33:50 GMT Daylight Time, Flykiller@aol.com 
writes:


On the other hand, if the latest briefs are any indication and we launch any 
military action against the house of Saud, then I think we're going to have 
to occupy everything from Libya to Jakarta.  That _will_ require an army, and 

I'm not sure we have one.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I've been really busy at work recently but I wasn't aware that the US planned 
to invade Saudi Arabia, where, the last time I looked the House of Saud were 
in charge.

The last time Saddam Hussein, leader of Iraq and head of the Ba'ath party, 
was the target.

Have things changed and has the US decided to after the single biggest source 
of  al-Qaida funding?

Charles

I addressed some cheerful chit-chat at the man opposite but was rewarded with 
grunt. I tried the man next to me but he just looked at the gentleman I had 
tried first and said "Do you know what he's talking about?" At this point I 
realised I was getting out my depth but the Dean stepped in and saved me, "Oh 
don't worry about it" he said, "They're mathematicians - we never talk to 
them."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807152728.024eb0f0@mail.buffnet.net>

TL 12
The SL948 was designed to be the hardest hitting laser that CDI could 
manufacture and still retain the design philosophy of self-contained power 
plants for the laser. While it has similar statistics to the SL828, it 
achieves an additional 7% damage at the expense of a lessor accuracy via 
firepower. This system is actually cheaper to purchase than is the SL828. 
Total volume used is 1188.5 cubic feet. When used in a streamlined turret, 
11.5 cubic feet remain unused. When used in a non-streamlined turret, 
leftover volume is 311.5 cubic feet.
The SL948 uses a battery rated at 2,527,368 kilowatt seconds, and uses a 
fusion power plant rated at 42,123 Kilowatts.



ROF:                            1/60
Half Damage Range:              4
Max Damage Range:               12
Accuracy:                       34
Damage:                 5d6 x 153(2)
Spaces:                 2.38
Mass in Tons:                   19.29
Cost in MCr.:                   .91
Rate of Fire Bonus:             +7


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807153004.00a3a9d0@mail.buffnet.net>

The SL90 system, using a 239,940 kilowatt second battery, enjoys the power 
of a 15,996 kilowatt fusion power plant. Like some of the other SL series 
lasers, this laser is designed to fit into streamlined turrets. It has a 
rate of fire that is 4 times that of a Standard 405-Mj laser, and as such, 
enjoys popularity as both as a point defense system, along with that of a 
moderate offensive system. When used in a streamlined turret, excess space 
is 35 cubic feet, or 135 in a non-streamlined turret.


ROF:                            4/60
Half Damage Range:              1
Max Damage Range:               4
Accuracy:                       31
Damage:                 5d6 x 47(2)
Spaces:                 .73
Mass in Tons:                   3.94
Cost in MCr.:                   .20
Rate of Fire Bonus:             +9


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <50.f92cdfb.2a82cde6@aol.com>

In a message dated 07/08/02 00:58:22 GMT Daylight Time, jtkwon@jtkgroup.com 
writes:


Don't forget - the outgoing commander has to do an inventory 
with the new commander, and the new commander gets to sign 
for the ship and all of the equipment in it.


Ohhh...the Vilani would love that bit.

Charles

I addressed some cheerful chit-chat at the man opposite but was rewarded with 
grunt. I tried the man next to me but he just looked at the gentleman I had 
tried first and said "Do you know what he's talking about?" At this point I 
realised I was getting out my depth but the Dean stepped in and saved me, "Oh 
don't worry about it" he said, "They're mathematicians - we never talk to 
them."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807153248.00a37b70@mail.buffnet.net>

The SL136 series laser uses 363,376 kilowatt second power storage unit, and 
is attached to a fusion power plant generating 24,225 kilowatts of power. 
Unusable in a streamlined turret, this laser is the upgraded SL90 with 
respect towards use in non-streamlined turrets. It boasts a 23% increase in 
penetration power over the SL90. Total volume used in turret is 490 cubic 
feet, leaving 10 cubic feet as empty space.
RoF 1/2 Damage Max Damage Acc Damage
range range
4/60 2 5 31 5d6 x 58(2)
Spaces Mass Cost RoF
in tons in MCr. bonus
.98 5.45 .2682 +6

ROF:                            4/60
Half Damage Range:              2
Max Damage Range:               5
Accuracy:                       31
Damage:                 5d6 x 58(2)
Spaces:                 .98
Mass in Tons:                   5.45
Cost in MCr.:                   .27
Rate of Fire Bonus:             +9


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:29:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:29:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807153547.00a32530@mail.buffnet.net>

Resent as the previous version of this I sent included the first edition 
data as opposed to second edition data (sorry)

The SL136 series laser uses 363,376 kilowatt second power storage unit, and 
is attached to a fusion power plant generating 24,225 kilowatts of power. 
Unusable in a streamlined turret, this laser is the upgraded SL90 with 
respect towards use in non-streamlined turrets. It boasts a 23% increase in 
penetration power over the SL90. Total volume used in turret is 490 cubic 
feet, leaving 10 cubic feet as empty space.


ROF:				4/60
Half Damage Range:		2
Max Damage Range:		5
Accuracy:			31
Damage:			5d6 x 58(2)
Spaces:			.98
Mass in Tons:			5.45
Cost in MCr.:			.27
Rate of Fire Bonus:		+9


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:29:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:29:30 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <20020807020627.6743406c80f7471790ae6758c061e780.in@keywest.kennett.net>
References: <20020807020627.6743406c80f7471790ae6758c061e780.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <3d51707a.2567266@post.demon.co.uk>

cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng) writes:

>Thanks.  Anybody can provide with how the Royal Navy does it?  Has the =
USN
>changed anything from the afore-explained procedure?=20

I always liked David Weber's change of command ceremonies in the Honor
Harrington books, but I don't know whether they're based on genuine
Napoleonic-era Royal Navy practice or just something DW made up...

(in brief, the new Captain is welcomed on board the ship as a visiting
senior officer, is escorted to the bridge, makes an all-hands
announcement in which (s)he reads aloud the written orders from the
Admiralty directing him/her "To proceed aboard Her Majesty's Starship
<Foo>, there to take upon yourself the duties and responsibilities of
commanding officer in the service of the Crown"; after which the new
Captain formally tells the previous (acting) commander "I assume
command".)

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807153712.00a315d0@mail.buffnet.net>

The SL23 is primarily a point defense laser. Imperial authorities have 
given CDI their coveted Excellence of Design award for this point defense 
laser. Also, the IMD has predicted that any civilian ship owner who puts in 
for a permit to install SL23's in their ship - will have an easier time of 
it. Mark Shuugaash, Sector head for the IMD of the Spinward Marches has 
informed all IMD departments that ships requesting SL23 permits are to be 
given preferential treatment with respect towards application processing 
time. After all, quoted Mark Shuugaash, how many would be pirates are going 
to use the low damaging power of the SL23 to good effect?
The SL23 uses a battery rated at 23,400 kilowatt seconds, and recharges its 
rapid fire laser by means of a 20,795 kilowatt fusion power plant. Unlike 
its faster firing cousin, the SL23a, this SL23 will fit into streamlined 
turrets. Excess space after installation in a Streamlined turret is 15 
cubic feet.


ROF:				20/60
Half Damage Range:		1
Max Damage Range:		2
Accuracy:			29
Damage:			5d6 x 24(2)
Spaces:			.77
Mass in Tons:			3.43
Cost in MCr.:			.17
Rate of Fire Bonus:		+12


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:34:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:34:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
Message-ID: <3D5175D5.D8DEC9AF@ameritech.net>

Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 09:10:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>

> David Shayne writes:
>
>> Standard densities. With Earth = 1. Doesn't look so horibly wrong 
>> now does it? 
>
> Ok, that's not as bad.  

Let me take a moment here to appologize for the tone of theat last post.
I really should have performed a snarkectomy on it before I sent it out.

Sorry,

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 13:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 12:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807154015.00a37d60@mail.buffnet.net>

Like the SL23, the SL23a is designed as a point defense system. Because 
this system can only be used in unstreamlined turrets, CDI has been able to 
increase its firepower abilities from that of 1 shot per minute, to 1 shot 
per 40 seconds. Consequently, this laser is better suited for tackling the 
tough job of point defense against incoming missiles than its cousin, the 
SL23.
The SL23a still uses the 62,384 kilowatt second battery that the SL23 uses, 
but instead, uses a 31,192 kilowatt fusion power plant.


ROF:				1.33
Half Damage Range:		1
Max Damage Range:		2
Accuracy:			29
Damage:			5d6 x 24(2)
Spaces:			1
Mass in Tons:			4.47
Cost in MCr.:			.23
Rate of Fire Bonus:		+13


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 14:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Aug  7 13:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
References: <3D5174AB.19191.F0AB707@localhost> <m365ymsna4.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> <20020807171434.GA26680@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <3D517EAA.9080504@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Mikko V.I. Parviainen wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 09:26:27AM -0600, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> 
>>>At the current rates of extinction, somewhere between every six
>>>months and two years (depending on which biologist you listen to) we
>>>destroy one undiscovered medicine.
>>
>>We destroy one natural source of an undiscovered medicine, perhaps.
>>But we can synthesise just about anything these days.  
> 
> 
> Well, yes, but wouldn't it be a bit easier to synthesise a compound if
> you had it beforehand, instead of trying to duplicate the effects from
> an old tale?
> 

Also, anyone who thinks 'we can synthesize just about anything these 
days' is not a chemist or biochemist.

Trsut me, some of the natural compounds we're finding that have 
medicinal qualities are utter whirling b*tches to synthesize in any 
quantity, *let alone* synthesize on industrial scales economically.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 14:11:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Aug  7 13:11:28 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
References: <ML-2.3.1028741494.6212.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3D517A60.60801@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Mikko V.I. Parviainen writes:
> 
>>Well, yes, but wouldn't it be a bit easier to synthesise a compound if
>>you had it beforehand, instead of trying to duplicate the effects from
>>an old tale?
> 
> 
> Not exactly the right question.  The question is whether it's more efficient to
> chase down old wives' tales, or to ignore the old wives' tales and attempt to
> synthesize drugs based on prior understanding of what they ought to do.
> 
> The herbal movement notwithstanding, most pharmaceutical companies don't seem
> to find chasing down old wives' tales, particularly extremely obscure old
> wives' tales, to be really worth doing.


ROFL!!!! We have one researcher here at the College who has a 
multimillion dollar grant, with support from NIH and a bunch of 
Pharmaceutical companies looking into the medicinal properties of arid 
lands plants.

The pharmaceutical companies are funding this research to the tunes of 
*billions* of dollars a year.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs





From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 14:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Wed Aug  7 13:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <001a01c23e54$52a53950$0b01a8c0@duck>

On Behalf Of Hal
> Hello Folks,
>    This is in response to Tim's comments regarding point defense lasers.
I
> have a few of them in all, so this is just one of many incoming
> designs.  All of them are TL 12 designs for use with GURPS
> TRAVELLER.  Please note that I was not happy with the "Logic" of having
> turret weapons who required that their "energy power plant be part of the
> main shipboard power plant.  Thus, *ALL* lasers designed by CGI include
> their own power generators.

I hope you don't mind, but this brings up a couple of questions from a GT
neophyte.  Please understand that I only have GT, not VE2 or GS3.

- What are "streamlined" and "unstreamlines" turrets?  In the GT rules
  there are just "turrets".  What is the difference?

- Do you have any TL 10 designs.  I am curious as the the relative use
  of such weapons.

Finally, I also have an unrelated questions I hope you could answer:

- Are standard GT TL10 lasers 250MJ or 360MJ?  The rules are contradictory
  on the issue.

Thanks.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 14:55:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tommy Grav)
Date: Wed Aug  7 13:55:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re: army usage
In-Reply-To: <20020807002817.99096.qmail@web20417.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.44.0208072247420.363897-100000@svati>

On Tue, 6 Aug 2002, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:

>Tommy, you should do some research, too.  The Taliban was composed
>primarily of Pakistani and Saudi volunteers who called themselves
>"students" (of Islam).  Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, with the knowledge
>if not the support of the United States government, formed and
>trained the Taliban and sent them to end the civil war in
>Afghanistan, which they did.  The peace they imposed was in many ways
>worse than the war.

This is true and not contrary to what I said at all. I just pointed out
that the Taliban was almost universially hated and feared inside of
Afghanistan, and that they had control over almost all of the land, except
for the small area controled by the NA. And the NA was loosing quickly.

My point was like yours that the Americans did a good job by ousting the
Taliban and that the Northern Alliance didn't have to be bribed to let
the US help them. They were in enough trouble to cheer loudly when the
US did help.

No controversy here.

ObTrav: How does the citizens of a world view interference into their
local affairs by the Imperium? I guess that it is takes a wide range
of sentiments, but that most worlds really want to settle their issues
wiyhout the IMperium medeling. Even if it means a nuclear war.

Tommy Grav
-------------------------------------------------------------
Graduate Student at Institute of Astrophysics, UiO,
   [tommy.grav@astro.uio.no]  [http://folk.uio.no/~tommygr/]
Predoc Fellow at Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 14:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dominic Mooney)
Date: Wed Aug  7 13:57:03 2002
Subject: BITS - Sneak Preview was  RE: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <AC8B99B8-AA47-11D6-8866-0003930B3ACE@cybergoths.u-net.com>

> "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

> At 9:43 AM -0700 8/6/02, DeGraff, Jesse wrote:
> What about artists?  ;)
> Jesse
> Do you have any experience?  :-)


<Delurk>

If you're interested, look at Jesse's work at

http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/ghalalk_and_pf_sloan.
htm

which shows some of the models he's been building for the forthcoming BITS 
starship miniatures combat game 'Power Projection'.

By forthcoming, we are hoping for the lite rules (escorts and destroyers - 
non capital ships) at GenCon UK and the full rules before Christmas.

Dom
BITS Webmaster...

"Power Projection - 'It's all about going to other people's planets and 
making *them* do what *we* want".

--------dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia,
there's still the notion that the future is
something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." Niven/Pournelle/Flynn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 15:20:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Aug  7 14:20:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Interference
Message-ID: <200208072119.MGZ05733@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

In the Broadsword adventure, there seems to be little enough 
Imperial interference on Garda-Vilis, but more than enough 
Sword World and Zhodani interefence.

Then again, this is a border area, and a backwater border 
area at that.

The local freedom fighters seem to be pro-Imperial - the 
Tanoose Freedom League has killed Ine Givar who tried to 
recruit them.  It's almost as if the people on Garda-Vilis 
think they would get a better shake with direct Imperial 
interference than by having Vilis rule them from afar.

Then again, the Imperium doesn't seem to be in the game of 
nation building, or freedom fighting, or dispensing democracy 
at the drop of a hat.  They seem to be more interested in 
maintaining a Naval Base at Frenzie.

Gee, are there any parallels between Frenzie and Diego Garcia?
________________
FRONT TOWARD ENEMY

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 15:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Aug  7 14:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020807102826.009e6ec0@mindspring.com>
References: <3D5050EB.9050601@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3D523A3D.13247.2FE3DA@localhost>

On 7 Aug 2002 at 10:30, Douglas Berry wrote:

> I've always seen the Zhodani motivation in the Frontier Wars as keeping the 
> Imperium at bay.  The 1st and 2nd wars removed the Imperium  from 
> previously settled Zhodani territories and established a buffer zone.  The 
> 3 - 5 felt more like disruptive actions, designed to keep the Marches 
> scared and on the defensive.

I'm certain that this is the case, as given the poor Imperial showing 
up until the FFW if the Zho's had really wanted to come in and take the 
SM they'd probably not have been stopped short of Corridor.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 15:48:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 14:48:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <001a01c23e54$52a53950$0b01a8c0@duck>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807172615.02726970@mail.buffnet.net>

Hello Mike,


>I hope you don't mind, but this brings up a couple of questions from a GT
>neophyte.  Please understand that I only have GT, not VE2 or GS3.
>
>- What are "streamlined" and "unstreamlines" turrets?  In the GT rules
>   there are just "turrets".  What is the difference?

At the time I wrote all this, GURPS TRAVELLER was just recently released 
and there was nothing else printed.  I had a few issues with what had been 
written overall.  Since then, I've resolved those issues with respect 
towards streamlined and un-streamlined vessels.  In short?  Ignore the 
concept of Streamlined versus Un-streamlined turrets ;)



>- Do you have any TL 10 designs.  I am curious as the the relative use
>   of such weapons.

I had not worked on any TL10 designs.  At the time, I had intended to, but 
I never got around to it.


>Finally, I also have an unrelated questions I hope you could answer:
>
>- Are standard GT TL10 lasers 250MJ or 360MJ?  The rules are contradictory
>   on the issue.

Interesting ;)

I will have to take the time out and try to figure out which it is supposed 
to be.  As it stands now, I have to take the time to figure out how I set 
up my BEAM WEAPONS TL12 spread sheet so I can reproduce all the date I 
created for my web site lo those many years back.  When did Traveller first 
come out in GURPS anyhow, 1998?  '99?  Hmmmm.

For what it is worth?  I've noted that the rates of fire for lasers are 
limited by the fact the energy that goes into charging the "batteries" or 
capacitors are less than what they could be.  Someone who rerouts ship's 
manuever drive energy towards lasers can increase the rate of fire to 
extremely high rates of fire.

                   Hal


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 16:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dooley, Ryan)
Date: Wed Aug  7 15:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Probably a FAQ, but...
Message-ID: <C0B11D0413A966428A8FAAED4B198CA46AC8BE@col-mailnode03.col.missouri.edu>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C23E4B.90149D70
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Howdy,

=20

I don't know if this has been discussed to death or not yet but since
I've not seen traffic on the topic as of late, anybody know the word on
T5?

=20

Cheers,

            Ryan


------_=_NextPart_001_01C23E4B.90149D70
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	charset="us-ascii"
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<html>

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<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">


<meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 10 (filtered)">

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<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Howdy,</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I don&#8217;t know if this has been discussed to =
death or
not yet but since I&#8217;ve not seen traffic on the topic as of late, =
anybody
know the word on T5?</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Cheers,</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp; Ryan</span></font></p>

</div>

</body>

</html>
=00
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 16:08:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug  7 15:08:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Spam Spam Spam Spam...
Message-ID: <11b.147a05c3.2a82e8cc@cs.com>

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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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In a message dated 8/7/02 3:53:47 AM Central Daylight Time, 
jenry023@student.liu.se writes:


> Come to think of it, most products that come from special places are not 
> considered luxuries there, but they probably are at other locations.
> 
> Groat Musk Perfume would be a nasty thing to hit the PCs with...  ;-)
> 
> * Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
> 

More like, "Groat Musk Perfume would be a nasty thing to suffer a container 
breach while in the PC's cargo hold..." Especially in a S-class Scout/Courier.

Simon Jester
-------------------
Vikings? There ain't no vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was 
burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway. That's 
our story and we're sticking to it.



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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 8/7/02 3:53:47 AM Central Daylight Time, jenry023@student.liu.se writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Come to think of it, most products that come from special places are not considered luxuries there, but they probably are at other locations.
<BR>
<BR>Groat Musk Perfume would be a nasty thing to hit the PCs with... &nbsp;;-)
<BR>
<BR>* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>More like, "Groat Musk Perfume would be a nasty thing to suffer a container breach while in the PC's cargo hold..." Especially in a S-class Scout/Courier.
<BR>
<BR>Simon Jester
<BR>-------------------
<BR>Vikings? There ain't no vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway. That's our story and we're sticking to it.
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 16:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Wed Aug  7 15:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807172615.02726970@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <001b01c23e5e$c9983a80$0b01a8c0@duck>

On Behalf Of Hal
> >- Do you have any TL 10 designs.  I am curious as the the relative use
> >   of such weapons.
>
> I had not worked on any TL10 designs.  At the time, I had intended to, but
> I never got around to it.

The reason I ask is that I have lately gotten into the kick of just ignoring
GTL12/TTL15 and seeing what I can get at "medium" TLs like GTL10/TTL12.  I
do wish there were GTL9 modules published somewhere.  I *really* want to be
able to make some GTL9 ships.

> >Finally, I also have an unrelated questions I hope you could answer:
> >
> >- Are standard GT TL10 lasers 250MJ or 360MJ?  The rules are
contradictory
> >   on the issue.
>
> Interesting ;)

>From what I can see (I own GT, BtC and AR1) GT 1e used 360MJ for TL10, but
it was changed to 250MJ in GT 2e.  Unfortunately all modules made pre-2e
(like AR1) still refer to 360MJ, and even some things in GT 2e still refer
to 360MJ.

I do admit I don't even know for sure that they made the change.  I am
just assuming it from the contradictory references.  That is why I was
asking about the TL10 lasers you played with.  Assuming I am correct, I
guess someone figured out that a 360MJ laser at TL10 ended up being too
big, so it was adjusted down.

Anyway, thanks for the answers.  I do appreciate it.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 16:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Aug  7 15:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <001b01c23e5e$c9983a80$0b01a8c0@duck>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028758470.4086.ajackson@ping>

Mike West writes:
> I do admit I don't even know for sure that they made the change.  I am
> just assuming it from the contradictory references.

Mostly, the change is because it was determined that the 360MJ laser takes up
more than 500 cf.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 16:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Aug  7 15:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Probably a FAQ, but...
In-Reply-To: <C0B11D0413A966428A8FAAED4B198CA46AC8BE@col-mailnode03.col.missouri.edu>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028758541.2749.ajackson@ping>

Dooley, Ryan writes:
> 
> I don't know if this has been discussed to death or not yet but since
> I've not seen traffic on the topic as of late, anybody know the word on
> T5?

I don't think there's been official word, but I wouldn't hold your breath.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 16:17:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug  7 15:17:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Mines
In-Reply-To: <20020807183944.5641.qmail@web10602.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020807183944.5641.qmail@web10602.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020808081638.A491@freeman.little-possums.net>

Daniel Burns wrote:
> "Would you believe... Our top psychics are manning our sensor grid
> right now, and can get a precognitive firing solution weeks or even
> years before the target shows up?" ;)

Of course I do.  That's just one of many ways in which the Consulate
protects its proles :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 16:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug  7 15:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807154015.00a37d60@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net> <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com> <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com> <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net> <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net> <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20020807154015.00a37d60@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020808082655.B491@freeman.little-possums.net>

Hal wrote:
> The SL23a still uses the 62,384 kilowatt second battery that the SL23 uses, 
> but instead, uses a 31,192 kilowatt fusion power plant.

Just a question; how do you get a RoF of 1.33 when the pwoer plant
takes 2 seconds to recharge the energy banks?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 16:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug  7 15:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807172615.02726970@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net> <001a01c23e54$52a53950$0b01a8c0@duck> <5.0.2.1.2.20020807172615.02726970@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020808085800.C491@freeman.little-possums.net>

Hal wrote:
> For what it is worth?  I've noted that the rates of fire for lasers are 
> limited by the fact the energy that goes into charging the "batteries" or 
> capacitors are less than what they could be.

This is a problem with all G:Traveller modular designs.  In normal
space, you can always use the power allocated in design to maintaining
the jump field.  This is at least 200 kW/dton.


>  Someone who rerouts ship's manuever drive energy towards lasers can
> increase the rate of fire to extremely high rates of fire.

If the average density of starships is about 4 tonnes per dton, then
each gee of thrust reduction diverts 400 kW/dton to other systems.
This will benefit a lightly-armed ship.  A heavily armed ship will
hardly notice, since such a ship already has a far higher power
requirement for weapons than for maneuver drives.

Now, diverting power from bay weapons or spinal mounts to turrets is
quite a different story.  That might be a good idea in a point-defense
situation.  It might raise the RoF by a factor of thirty in extreme
cases, for a +5 RoF bonus.  It's a pity that RoF doesn't actually do
much :/


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 17:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Wed Aug  7 16:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Point Defense Lasers from CGI (GURPS TRAVELLER)
In-Reply-To: <20020808082655.B491@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807154015.00a37d60@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020807203737.A31397@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <200208051729.KAA02134@molly.iii.com>
 <20020806080813.C27684@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020805194951.02498450@mail.buffnet.net>
 <20020806182206.B28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <4698.64.8.3.28.1028623204.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020807150154.024efe80@mail.buffnet.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020807154015.00a37d60@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020807191227.027257b0@mail.buffnet.net>

At 08:26 AM 08/08/2002 +1000, you wrote:
>Hal wrote:
> > The SL23a still uses the 62,384 kilowatt second battery that the SL23 
> uses,
> > but instead, uses a 31,192 kilowatt fusion power plant.
>
>Just a question; how do you get a RoF of 1.33 when the pwoer plant
>takes 2 seconds to recharge the energy banks?

I goofed - I read it wrong and was in a hurry to transscribe the 
information into email from my old HTML...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 17:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Aug  7 16:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <OFDEC7001F.B4AA8375-ON42256C0E.001D1133@ko.com>
References: <OFDEC7001F.B4AA8375-ON42256C0E.001D1133@ko.com>
Message-ID: <p04330109b977629d272b@[198.123.22.179]>

>Sufficiently advanced technology makes life on an airless
>rockball possible - why would such a species need to preserve
>its wildlife?

Well, if we assume that the airless rockball is totally self 
suficient (not just sufficient over a timescale of week or months) I 
see two reasons...

1) Economics, a natural ecosystem maintains itself (and hence is a 
lot cheaper).
2) Comfort, just because the rockball is livable, doesn't mean it 
produces everything people would want.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 19:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Aug  7 18:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] System Gen Help
In-Reply-To: <c9.261a11c4.2a7d38e2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20807.181758.5x2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> If a captured planet is in a gas giant's orbit though then it should
> become a moon or impact the gas giant eventually, or perhaps
> eventually be thrown out of orbit away from or towards the star.

It could wind up in a stable relationship with the GG. 

If it's sufficiently smaller than the GG (1/80th?) it could be stable
at one of the Trojan points.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 19:26:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Aug  7 18:26:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Gas Giant Mass
In-Reply-To: <200208051642.JAA31293@molly.iii.com>
Message-ID: <20807.182739.9w7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>Lowest GG density = .1
>>Average GG density ~= .21
>>Highest GG density = .3
>
> Assuming that's g/cc, that's horribly wrong. Saturn has a density of 0.69
> and is probably near the low end of possible densities; all of the other
> gas giants have densities between 1 and 2.  A large gas giant, at 4x
> jupiter mass and about the same diameter, would be as dense as the earth.

Densities are likely in units such the Earth has a density of 1.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 19:44:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Aug  7 18:44:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Briefing Depicted Saudis as Enemies (washingtonpost.com)
In-Reply-To: <3D51CB90.53932375@minn.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020807204455.00a7f6f0@minn.net>


Found this article via the www.FrontPageMag.com website:

 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47913-2002Aug5.html

Obtrav: What if an allied state in the Vargr Extents acts against Imperial
interests?

(Hmmm...there's an idea for my serial space opera project...)


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 19:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Hamill)
Date: Wed Aug  7 18:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] GTS-the progrem
In-Reply-To: <20020807183403.21704.67892.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020808015159.46560.qmail@web21505.mail.yahoo.com>


> 
> Message: 1
> From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] GTS-the program
> Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 16:10:33 +0000
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> From: John Hamill <jwdh71@yahoo.com>
> 
>      "I have a chance to get a two-part
> GURPS:Traveller game together, 
> during a weekend mini-con at the local game store,
> and I really need a 
> couple of ships fast. Well, faster than I can do
> them by hand, anyway."
> 
> 
> Mr. Hamill,
> 
>      IIRC, the BITS website has a wonderful,
> massive, and free PDF download 
> chocked full of G:T ships.  Al TLs, all races, all
> functions too.  Why build 
> ships when someone else has done the work for you
> already?  :)
>      A free PDF reader can be downloaded at the
> Adobe webiste too.
>      Google should point you to both locations.
> 
> 
>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen

A great idea sir, but unfortunately just any old ships
won't do. See I'm running an old adventure from MT
days, in a non-canon universe, using GURPS: Traveller
(as that's what I have on hand, not wanting to get my
old LBB set out of storage and not having mt MT books
anymore. I need to redesign for G:T a 10,000 dton,
United States of America class frontier patrol
cruiser, the Republica Federal de Mexico, it's small
craft and fighters, as well as the Terran
Confederation Marines landers. As you can tell, it
will be an active duty adventure, and the specific
adventure will be mostly slated for ground combat,
however, there is some chance of space action, and I
want to be prepared for it. Thanks for the heads up
though, I will be looking for that at the nearest
opportunity.

Interestingly, this campaign came to mind when the
list was discussing rules changes. We used a few
(including the no-kill during char gen), but the
biggest one was to fiddle with the fuel for jumps.
When I started playing the original LBB's, many of my
fellow players were either ex-military, current
college students, or both. several of the motre
scientific ones complained about the extreme amounts
of fuel used for jump, and pointed out that the ship
would melt if it tried to fuse even a portion of that
amount before or during a jump. The GM at the time
agreed with him, and didn't like the fuel for jump
situation anyway (he was trying to simulate a universe
from a novel, and didn't use the OTU), so he simply
dispensed with fuel requirements for the jump drive.
All you had to do was have a power plant the same size
or larger than your jump drive, and thats all. It
definitely chaqnged the game from what it was designed
as, and made tactics for intersteller war completely
different than in the normal Traveller universe. OTOH,
you could actually see freighters, especially small
ones, begin to make a profit, even from regular cargo.
Others in the group made up new combat rules, both for
space and ground combat, and we used those instead. I
gamed with them for several years, but moved away
eventually. 
But I still messed around with the rules, and when I
had another group of victi...er, players, I started a
non-canon game with them. I set it in a future Terran
Confederation, sort of a ramped up UN in space, and
the best campaign we had was an active duty campaign,
aboard the above frontier patrol cruiser. I did use
jump fuel, but cut the requirement to a tenth of
canon. However I still designed ships the book way, so
your average ship, at least the military and scout
ships, had a 10 jump fuel reserve. So your type S
scout/courier could do 10 jump 2's before needing to
be refueled. Or for civilian vessels, they could carry
less fuel and add cargo space. It worked out well for
this campaign, since they were supposed to patrol the
frontier of the Confederation, and also protect and
aid any colonies in their area, it allowed for a much
greater range for their ship. It also allowed me to
effectively cut the PC's off from higher authority,
and made them responsible for whatever happened on
their watch. It was great watching them try to come up
with ways to explain their actions to command (in the
reports which I made them write up). A great campaign
it was.
So I'm going to try a simple one-shot (well, actually
a two part one-shot) to see if I can't get my local
group into our Great Game, we'll see how it goes.

John
jwdh71@yahoo.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 19:53:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mosaic Tapestry)
Date: Wed Aug  7 18:53:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Probably a FAQ, but...
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1028758541.2749.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <001001c23e7e$2acd8a70$2f7de40c@loki>

I'd enquire here:

http://www.travellerrpg.com/cgi-bin/Trav/CotI/Discuss/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb
=forum;f=11


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 22:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug  7 21:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] John Beats The Dead Horse of Imperial Rules Of War...
Message-ID: <OFB4C576D0.DD4913B9-ONCA256C0F.00177D95@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

John wrote:
>The player characters in any Traveller party would often fall 
>into the category of illegal combatant.  They aren't wearing 
>a uniform, they don't belong to an official army, and aren't 
>part of an officially responsible chain of command.  In a war 
>zone, if they were caught fighting an official military 
>force, and they surrendered, would they be considered 
>prisoners of war, or would they be shot out of hand after the 
>local Imperial Marine lieutenant heard his platoon sergeant's 
>report?

I believe that mercenaries, available and used in the standard way that 
Trav says they are used, would only be possible under the canonical "Rules 
of War" scheme. That is, with merc troops being recognised as legitimate 
forces, with repatriation bonds, etc. Exactly what David Drake writes 
about - I'm sure he must have cribbed a bit from Traveller.

In this situation, the PCs will be OK as long as they are recognised as 
being part of a legitimate merc unit. One of the fun things I forced my 
players to do was to apply for a company-sized merc licence...

Have a look under Tavonni Specialties ==> Soldiers of Fortune ==> Adifux Inc LIC Pty Ltd.  ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 22:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug  7 21:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: MT Vehicles
Message-ID: <OFC8A19485.1B58CE65-ONCA256C0F.001962BE@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Peter said:
>I'm in the process of detailing out the armed forces  of  Efate's
>Regular Army for a Landgrab.

Try browsing the Incredible Dean Files[TM]:
        http://www.solstation.com/core/dean_files_en.htm

Of the TL 13 entries, roughly 20 out of 50 are vehicles. Then you can grab 
some at lower TL's to fill in for the logistics & civvies.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 22:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Aug  7 21:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] John Beats The Dead Horse of Imperial Rules Of War...
In-Reply-To: <OFB4C576D0.DD4913B9-ONCA256C0F.00177D95@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020807235157.00a78ca0@minn.net>

At 02:27 PM 8/8/2002 +1000, david.d.jaques-watson wrote:

>I believe that mercenaries, available and used in the standard way that 
>Trav says they are used, would only be possible under the canonical "Rules 
>of War" scheme. That is, with merc troops being recognised as legitimate 
>forces, with repatriation bonds, etc. Exactly what David Drake writes 
>about - I'm sure he must have cribbed a bit from Traveller.

I wouldn't think so. If I recall correctly, Hammer's Slammers was
originally patched together from a series of shorter stories published in
ANALOG before the publication of the LBB's.

I should think that Drake's work was an influence on Book 4 and subsequent
works on mercenary ops in CT.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug  7 23:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug  7 22:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Interference
Message-ID: <OF161D1D12.25FFD37E-ONCA256C0F.001C7739@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

John wrote:
>The local freedom fighters seem to be pro-Imperial - the 
>Tanoose Freedom League has killed Ine Givar who tried to 
>recruit them.  It's almost as if the people on Garda-Vilis 
>think they would get a better shake with direct Imperial 
>interference than by having Vilis rule them from afar.

FWIW, in my campaign I put the "Aces & Eights" scenario on G-V. Everything 
seems to fit:
        - if Vilis was originally populated by Sword Worlders, then hiring 
a S-W merc outfit is not out of the question;
        - Colonel Semyon (from A&E) leads a Sword Worlder merc unit - 
hmmm;
        - as John says, the rebels appear to be pro-Imperial;
        - the guy who hid the money is an ex-Imperial intel officer, 
currently supporting the "rebels", another hmmm.

2 + 2 = 5? Works for me!  ;-)  ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 00:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug  7 23:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] sound of rolling dice
Message-ID: <103.1984cd5e.2a8363c3@aol.com>

 >> Traveller Adventure: Comet Busters
 >> 
 >> For referees only.  If you intend to play this adventure, quit reading 
now 
 >> and direct your game referee to this page. 
 >
 >*sound of harddrive saving file*

Yes, but will there be the sound of rolling dice?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 01:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 00:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] army usage
Message-ID: <24.29a1836f.2a837238@aol.com>

 >>On the other hand, if the latest briefs are any indication and we launch 
any 
 >>military action against the house of Saud, then I think we're going to 
have 
 >>to occupy everything from Libya to Jakarta.  That _will_ require an army, 
and 
 >>I'm not sure we have one.
 >
 >I've been really busy at work recently but I wasn't aware that the US 
planned 
 >to invade Saudi Arabia, where, the last time I looked the House of Saud 
were 
 >in charge.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A50022-2002Aug6.html

 >Have things changed and has the US decided to after the single biggest 
source 
 >of  al-Qaida funding?

You mean americans filling up their SUV gas tanks?  A far tougher opponent 
than Saddam.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 01:19:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 00:19:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re: army usage
Message-ID: <cf.1b176136.2a8374ff@aol.com>

 >My point was like yours that the Americans did a good job by ousting the
 >Taliban and that the Northern Alliance didn't have to be bribed to let
 >the US help them.

I guess you misunderstood me.  I didn't say they had to be bribed to let the 
US help them.  I said that previously they were a bunch of looters and 
bandits, but that now they seemed to be too busy spending lots of aid money 
to bother with looting.  The bribe was to keep them from looting and to leave 
the common people alone, not to fight.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 01:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Thu Aug  8 00:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <3D517A60.60801@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3D52C5CC.22171.37657C@localhost>

On 7 Aug 2002, at 12:52, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Anthony Jackson wrote:

> > The herbal movement notwithstanding, most pharmaceutical companies don't
> > seem to find chasing down old wives' tales, particularly extremely obscure
> > old wives' tales, to be really worth doing.

> ROFL!!!! We have one researcher here at the College who has a 
> multimillion dollar grant, with support from NIH and a bunch of 
> Pharmaceutical companies looking into the medicinal properties of arid 
> lands plants.

Even ignoring the problems of synthesing a complex pharmaceutical, it 
really helps when you have a ready supply of complex chemicals on hand 
for testing.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 02:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 01:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <e4e645e4c45c.e4c45ce4e645@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
Date: Wednesday, August 7, 2002 2:57 am
Subject: Re: [TML] re:  Silly Question

> 
> Jeff D. Greenly" says
> <snip naval change of command>
> 
> Don't forget - the outgoing commander has to do an inventory 
> with the new commander, and the new commander gets to sign 
> for the ship and all of the equipment in it.

Anybody know if a _Nimitz_-class CVN has a National Stock Number? ;-)

As the incoming captain signs a one-page hand receipt for "Carrier, 
Aircraft, Nuclear-Powered, w/ancillary equipment"...then spends the next 
week signing all the annexes to the hand receipt....

ObTrav:  GT:GF mentions the 3I's equivalent to NSNs; do major warship 
classes have such numbers?

<<snip>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 02:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Aug  8 01:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Spam Spam Spam Spam...
In-Reply-To: <11b.147a05c3.2a82e8cc@cs.com>
References: <11b.147a05c3.2a82e8cc@cs.com>
Message-ID: <20020808101200.30a20555.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Wed, 07 Aug 2002 17:19:08 -0400 (EDT)
Damage169@cs.com wrote:

> More like, "Groat Musk Perfume would be a nasty thing to suffer a container 
> breach while in the PC's cargo hold..." Especially in a S-class Scout/Courier.

Yes, that would be a very nasty problem. Very subtle. How would the PCs notice that the cargo container had been damaged?

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 02:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Aug  8 01:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] sound of rolling dice
In-Reply-To: <103.1984cd5e.2a8363c3@aol.com>
References: <103.1984cd5e.2a8363c3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020808101438.23274eb3.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Thu, 08 Aug 2002 02:03:47 -0400 (EDT)
Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> Yes, but will there be the sound of rolling dice?

Tough question. Eventually yes, but at the moment I don't run any Traveller campaign (Rolemaster, Vampire, and Torg fill my RPG time). I am working on creating a Traveller campaign in which your adventure would fit nicely, though... will run it as soon as one of the other campaigns end...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 02:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 01:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
Message-ID: <e53186e50939.e50939e53186@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: JFZeigler@aol.com
Date: Wednesday, August 7, 2002 4:23 am
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Silly Question

> >Naval JAG: So what happened to the three 15" guns that used to in 
> the aft 
> >turret?
> >Captain: What 15" guns? This is a destroyer!
> >Naval JAG: The ones in the property book you signed for when you 
> took 
> >command. I'm afraid we can't allow you to retire until those are 
> paid for . 
> . 
> 
> Heh. Anyone remember the classic SF story "Allamagoosa?"

Was that the one with the ship's "offog"?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 03:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Thu Aug  8 02:27:03 2002
Subject: MT Vehicles (was: Re: [TML] Landgrab )
In-Reply-To: <000401c23e1b$85fa2ec0$5600a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPOEENEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

I have a number of MT vehicles and ships on my site, enough to fully equip a
TL13 marined regiment. Find them at www.users.bigpond.com/Skaran if you are
interested.

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Peter L.S. Trevor
Sent: Wednesday, 7 August 2002 7:16 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: MT Vehicles (was: Re: [TML] Landgrab )


Hyphen wrote:
> Peter asked:
> >Does anyone have (or know of) some software  or  spreadsheet  for
> >creating ground vehicles using MT rules?  I need to create  about
> >a dozen different military vehicles for my Efate landgrab.
>
> I created one, but it is a little basic and assumes you have the
> rules to plug the numbers in. (I did it years ago when I was
> worried about copyright and didn't know how to write a database
> spreadsheet. I still don't... ;-)
>
> I downloaded one from the 'net... Ships III from Ace and The Dog's
> website. However, I can't remember if it covers vehicles. It's a
> bit flaky and can crash unexpectedly, so save often!
>         http://www.ace-dog.com/downloads/downloads.htm
>
> Would pulling a couple of designs from 101 Vehicles help? What are
> you after, specifically?

Ships III doesn't do vehicles (according to its manual there  are
no ground vehicle drives, etc).  I have been trying  to  use  the
DOS program for vehicles from the same site but it seems to  have
major flaws (either that or my own math  is  way  off).  And  101
Vehicles doesn't have the range I need.

I'm in the process of detailing out the armed forces  of  Efate's
Regular Army for a Landgrab.  As this is  a  place  with  a  high
chance of merc adventures (think  high-tech  'Nam  in  Traveller)
this detail seems more important than with  other  Landgrabs.  So
far I have a need for an MBT, an air  defence  AFV,  3  different
artillery AFVs, assorted AFVs for EW/ND/command/commo, a recovery
vehicle, a field repair vehicle, a G-Carrier with 3 variants,  an
APC with 5 variants, and a fast recon vehicle (possibly a  Trasea
grav bike for the last).  Before I'm done  I'll  probably  double
this list, and thats before I get to the COACC  aerospace  units,
the rear  echelon  support  vehicles,  or  the  typical  civilian
vehicles used by the militia on both sides!  If  anyone's  got  a
fetish for designing lots of MT vehicles I could pre-release  the
unit org charts for a better understanding of the requirements.

Hmmm ... or how about a TL 13 military vehicle rodeo (MT only)?

Regards PLST




_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 03:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 02:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] animals
Message-ID: <17b.c949cc4.2a839732@aol.com>

Hummingbee

    Similar to a hummingbird though larger.  Small fast and agile.  
    Brilliant colors and plumage that varies from hummingbee 
    to hummingbee.  Omnivorous -- fairly strong beak with 
    serrated edges.  Eats fruit, insects, and small animals.  
    Large and strong stinger hidden in butt, coated with a 
    gel that causes excruciating pain (in humans).  Lone females are 
    highly curious, friendly, and sociable, and can even be 
    taught tricks.  Lone females begin laying and tending eggs in 
    extreamly well-hidden nests in early spring.  The 
    initial hummingbees that hatch, all female, behave 
    similarly to their mother.  The mother then begins 
      remaining in the nest and laying eggs at a prodigious 
    rate, becoming similar to a terran queen ant with the 
    hatchlings bringing her food as needed.  
    As the colony increases in size the hummingbees become 
    less friendly, gradually becoming aggressively 
    territorial towards anything which approaches their 
    nest.  Eventually they attack 
    anything which comes near.  Hummingbees attack initially by flying 
    butt first at their target with their stingers extended, with follow-up
      attacks using their beaks.
      In late summer the queen hummingbee produces a handful 
    of males, which leave the colony in search of other 
    colonies.  If a foreign male finds the colony he breeds 
    with all the hummingbees in the nest, who then leave to 
    form their own colonies next spring.  The queen and the 
    male then die.  If no males appear then the colony 
    remains until one arrives.

Flying Cougar

    Similar to a terran mountain lion.  Its bones and 
    claws are lighter and thinner, but its jaws are large 
    and strong.  It has flaps of skin between its legs very 
    similar to those of a terran flying squirrel.  Weighs 
    about 40 lbs.  The flying cougar hunts by lurking high 
    up in trees or cliffs, watching for small to medium-sized animals 
    on the ground.  If it sees one in range it will leap 
    off of its perch and silently glide down to land on the 
    animal, dispatching it with a quick bite to the back of 
    the head.  The flying cougar can also hunt conventionally on
      the ground if it has to, and it is reasonably 
    quiet quick and agile.  The flying cougar is not 
    particularly strong and does not like to attack 
    human-sized prey, but an upright human may appear small 
    to a carnivore observing him from above and may be 
    attacked.  If the flying cougar's initial bite does not 
    kill and the prey is too large for it then the flying 
    cougar will try to run away.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 05:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 04:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The power of the Nobility
Message-ID: <ea07c4ea0052.ea0052ea07c4@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Date: Friday, July 26, 2002 9:40 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: The power of the Nobility


<<snip discussion of weapons use inside airliners>> 
> 
> Just give everybody stun guns.  They are relatively safe, handy at 
> closequarters and fairly effective.

May I please use mine on the overly-chatty passenger in the seat next 
to me?

ObTrav:  Ever notice that the areas on a ship in which gunplay is most 
likely (e.g., the bridge, engineering) are also the most vulnerable to 
the effects of stray rounds? ;-)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 06:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Aug  8 05:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] vilis landgrab
References: <20020806013403.4631.56000.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <014c01c23edb$56263660$545d8690@computer>

> Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 20:43:34 -0400
> From: "John T. Kwon"
> >I also had some thoughts about the factions of the Ine Givar
> >that were present, and their relationships with each other,
> >the Tanoose Freedom League, and Solomani supremicist groups,
> >but I will spare you those.
> No, tell me more.

Well, briefly...

IMTU, the main Ine Givar faction on Vilis looks to the Sword Worlds for
inspiration and support. A smaller faction is vaguely aligned with the
"Regina faction" who are independent, but vaguely pro-Zhodani and pro-Vargr.

The Sword Worlds is a Solomani culture, as, ultimately, is that of Vilis, so
they tend to be a bit soft on Solomani supremacists. These leads to problems
between the Ine Givar factions, since the Regina faction is rigourously
pansophontist, while the Sword Worlder faction are very soft on the
question.

The differences rarely erupt into violence, but it is rather more likely
that the Regina faction are involved in periodic struggles to defend the
Tanoosian and Vilani minorities on Vilis from Solomani supremacist gangs.
They may therefore be on better terms with the TFL than the Sword Worlder
faction, but, on the other hand, the Sword Worlder group have more money,
and support from an interstellar government.

The Regina faction only rarely engages in terrorism, and prefers to organise
non-violently. The Sword Worlds faction ...umm... There may be other
factions, as well, at least some of which could best be described as "nutty
splinter groups", or even "agents provocateur".

I hope some of this is of use to you.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 06:55:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Aug  8 05:55:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Cleon V (was Arbellatra)
References: <20020806190006.21475.58141.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <014b01c23edb$5508df80$545d8690@computer>

I haven't had time to check my emails for a couple of days, so I am
responding to oldish stuff.

> From: Donald McKinney <dmckinne@amdocs.com>
> Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 13:12:03 -0500
> I also explained the elevation of Archduke Soegz as the replacement of
> one of Emperor Joseph's (the man who defeated Cleon V, I hope I'm
> remembering right) backers...

My take is that there was an "Antares faction" that installed Martin VI, a
member of the Lentuli family, as a puppet.

Inevitably, he started to get ideas of his own, and Gustus, one of the
leaders of the faction, knocked him off.

The role of the Antares fleet in the struggle between Arbellatra and Gustus
would be one of the factors that would be involved in my PBEM, if it
happens.

(Unfortunately, this doesn't look likely at the moment - I am hopefully
going to be moving next week, which will at least temporarily disrupt my
email access.)

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com








From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 06:55:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Aug  8 05:55:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
References: <20020806203610.24254.48308.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <014d01c23edb$56ded800$545d8690@computer>

> Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 11:35:10
> From: "Douglas E. Berry"
> She probably played a different game with the Vilani.  Promises of
> increased power in the court, culminating with her son's marriage to a
> Vilani noblewoman in 679.

She was long dead, and out of the picture in 679.

To assume the marriage to Antiama was a result of the policy of Arbellatra,
rather than of Zhakirov, is to reduce Zhakirov to a cypher, and take
Arbellatra cultism a bit too far for my tastes.

In fact, I tend to take the references on Solomani influence at court being
at its height during Arbellatra's reign at face value - Zhakirov's policy
was a break from that of his mother. (And nearly led to civil war, and
actually did lead to the Imperium effectively being split in two!)

> As she drew closer to Capital, I'm sure that pretender fleets defected en
> masse rather than face annihilation.

<mumble> I really wanna do my PBEM...

> She was only 28 when the war broke out, according to canon.  I'd prefer to
> push her date of birth back to 567, making her 48 at the beginning of the
> war.  This at least gives her the age to have had a fairly long career and
> been at least an experienced Captain or junior Admiral.  This would, IMHO,
> make her seizure of the fleets far more acceptable.  No one is going to
> listen to a pup of a Ltd. Commander.

Gratuitous nepotism goes a long way. I don't see any particular problem
about her taking over the family business, especially during the Civil War,
when warlordism was rife.

A good staff will cover a multitude of sins, especially if it includes
people like Soegz. In fact, Soegz may have been the real genius.

> Does this time line work for people?

No!  : )

I've got way too many prejudices of my own on this topic. I've spent too
much time on it to not have.

It's a shame I probably won't be able to run my PBEM (in the short term). I
think my interpretation would play really well, and be plausible enough for
most people. And Gustus would probably win, given that commanders of
Arbellatra's calibre are rare.  : )

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 07:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  8 06:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
Message-ID: <200208081259.MIF02312@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Alan Bradley" says
>To assume the marriage to Antiama was a result of the policy 
>of Arbellatra, rather than of Zhakirov, is to reduce 
>Zhakirov to a cypher, and take Arbellatra cultism a bit too 
>far for my tastes.


Well, we've got the director of Braveheart doing a movie 
about Arbellatra, and we're going to play fast and loose with 
who was born when, among other historical distortions...
________________
It is impossible to travel faster than 
the speed of light and certainly not 
desirable, as ones hat keeps falling 
off...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 07:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 06:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Cleon V (was Arbellatra)
Message-ID: <f277fff28158.f28158f277ff@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Alan Bradley <abradley1@bigpond.com>
Date: Thursday, August 8, 2002 2:58 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Cleon V (was Arbellatra)

> I haven't had time to check my emails for a couple of days, so I am
> responding to oldish stuff.
> 
> > From: Donald McKinney <dmckinne@amdocs.com>
> > Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 13:12:03 -0500
> > I also explained the elevation of Archduke Soegz as the 
> replacement of
> > one of Emperor Joseph's (the man who defeated Cleon V, I hope I'm
> > remembering right) backers...
> 
> My take is that there was an "Antares faction" that installed 
> Martin VI, a
> member of the Lentuli family, as a puppet.
> 
> Inevitably, he started to get ideas of his own, and Gustus, one of the
> leaders of the faction, knocked him off.
> 
> The role of the Antares fleet in the struggle between Arbellatra 
> and Gustus
> would be one of the factors that would be involved in my PBEM, if it
> happens.

As an aside, the AuricTech Shipyards writeup in _101 Corporations_ 
mentions that AuricTech backed an unsuccessful pretender to the Iridium 
Throne during the Civil Wars (this led to the "donation" [read: 
confiscation] of most AuricTech stock, putting that stock in Imperial 
hands until it was sold to LSP).  At the time, AuricTech was 
headquartered on Sylea (or was it Capital by then?).

Can anyone suggest who such a pretender might have been?

<<snip>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 08:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 07:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Merging WTH & PE
Message-ID: <f3dd78f3fc11.f3fc11f3dd78@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Long <AndrewGLong@yahoo.com>
Date: Monday, July 8, 2002 4:20 pm
Subject: [TML] Merging WTH & PE

> I've been reading World Tamer's Handbook and Pocket Empires the 
> last week or
> so, and think it might be possible to massage them sufficiently to 
> make WTH
> feed into PE. However, I thought I'd make sure I wasn't re-
> inventing the
> wheel, and wondered if anyone else had taken a stab at it, and was 
> preparedto share their thoughts?
> 
> regards, Andy
> 
> PS - any spreadsheets around for PE or WTH?

I'm currently working on a semi-automated PE spreadsheet for 
calculating GWPs and government revenues.  As of right now, it does the 
calculations, but the user has to manually input the values.  
Eventually, I'll have tables so that the spreadsheet can automatically 
look up values based on government type et cetera, but the spreadsheet 
is right now good enough for my needs.

Any suggestions for other functions to be added as time and energy 
permit?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 09:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff D. Greenly)
Date: Thu Aug  8 08:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] I won the lottery!
Message-ID: <sd5254a9.055@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>

And now, from the I can't believe this actually happened to me files...

My SO and I were out shopping and running errands last night after
work. On the way home, she noticed that there were signs for a yard sale
to begin this morning and extend through Saturday. Never ones to pass up
good deals or good junk, we decided that if there was anyone/anything
out there this morning as we were on our way to work, we'd stop and take
a quick look...

Well, the sponsors of this particular sale were setting out their stuff
as we came up this morning, and my eye was immediately drawn to several
boxes of books that they were beginning to unpack. There were a LOT of
old science fiction paperbacks, and I started rummaging through them,
picking out a few that I wanted to buy. Out of the corner of my eye, I
noticed a familiar cover design as a box was opened, one that was black
with a red stripe! I turned to look into the box, and lo! a fairly
complete Classic Traveller collection!!!! The whole box was full of
LBB's, box sets, box games, and a copy of 5FW! I asked why these were
being sold, and the lady explained that her son was grown and in the
service and had said that he didn't want any of this stuff any more. I
asked her what she would take for the whole box, and she looked at me
with surprise, then said, "Well, how about 20 bucks?" 

As soon as I've done an inventory, I'll post a list of what's available
to sell and trade...


Jeff


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 09:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Aug  8 08:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT but soooo like a PC....
Message-ID: <3D528D4E.6010208@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

http://www.comics.com/creators/speedbump/archive/images/speedbump2002228570801.gif


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 09:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Thu Aug  8 08:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT but soooo like a PC....
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F160D@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

LOL!  Cute one :)
Jesse

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bruce Johnson [mailto:johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu]
> Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 8:25 AM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] OT but soooo like a PC....
> 
> 
> http://www.comics.com/creators/speedbump/archive/images/speedb
> ump2002228570801.gif
> 
> 
> -- 
> Bruce Johnson
> University of Arizona
> College of Pharmacy
> Information Technology Group
> 
> Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 10:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Thu Aug  8 09:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How many Xboats...
Message-ID: <3D529971.86914BB@mail.cswnet.com>

...does it take to replace a light bulb?

But Seriously...

How many Xboats/Xboat tenders does one need to maintain a single
Xboat Route?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 10:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  8 09:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How many Xboats...
Message-ID: <200208081636.MIN00707@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Roseberry asks
>How many Xboats/Xboat tenders does one need to maintain a 
>single Xboat Route?

I want to know how often X-boats leave and arrive.  If the 
boats leave on the hour (assuming a 24 hour clock), and the 
planet has a route to two other systems, then there are at 
least 48 x-boats (there should be spares, to allow for 
maintenance rotation).  Then, how many tenders do you need to 
handle two arrivals and two departures per hour?  And do we 
assume that an x-boat has to be chased down in order to get 
its messages?  I've always assumed that 99 percent of 
messages are electronic, and laser communication between an x-
boat and its tender is the form of transmission.  So, a 
tender only has to be within 1 light hour of an arriving x-
boat in order to receive messages and 1 light hour of the 
departing x-boat (for messages relayed onwards).

I'm not sure if some systems would want to have an x-boat on 
the half-hour, or more often.
________________
It is impossible to travel faster than 
the speed of light and certainly not 
desirable, as ones hat keeps falling 
off...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 10:51:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christian K)
Date: Thu Aug  8 09:51:04 2002
Subject: [TML] How many Xboats...
References: <200208081636.MIN00707@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <000f01c23efb$af484e20$0664a8c0@bigdarkone>

<snip>
>I've always assumed that 99 percent of
> messages are electronic, and laser communication between an x-
> boat and its tender is the form of transmission.  So, a
> tender only has to be within 1 light hour of an arriving x-
> boat in order to receive messages and 1 light hour of the
> departing x-boat (for messages relayed onwards).
<snip>

An XBoat per hour is darn much if you ask me considering the time of roughly
one week between jumps an hour is nothing why hurry where there is no need ?
I would asume 2 or 3 boats a day is more realistic besides the fact that at
last under GT rules travel time is not fixed it ranges between 6 and 7days
48mins.

just my two cents

Chris



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 10:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  8 09:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT but soooo like a PC....
In-Reply-To: <3D528D4E.6010208@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020808092952.009feec0@mindspring.com>

At 08:25 AM 8/8/02 -0700, you wrote:
>http://www.comics.com/creators/speedbump/archive/images/speedbump2002228570801.gif

Cute.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.
gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Author of GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces
Geek Code: tc tm tn- t4-- tg++$ ru ge+ 3i+@ c+
            jt- au pi he+ as+ so-                           



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 10:52:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  8 09:52:26 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <e4e645e4c45c.e4c45ce4e645@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020808093155.009fdec0@mindspring.com>

At 11:08 AM 8/8/02 +0300, you wrote:

> > Don't forget - the outgoing commander has to do an inventory
> > with the new commander, and the new commander gets to sign
> > for the ship and all of the equipment in it.
>
>Anybody know if a _Nimitz_-class CVN has a National Stock Number? ;-)

Since each one is manufactured individually, I doubt it.  But the F-14D 
does.  As does the M1-A1 MBT.  I spent some time helping out in the supply 
room, where I learned how to steal someone blind while staying inside the 
rules.  I also found a NSN number for a nuclear reactor.

>ObTrav:  GT:GF mentions the 3I's equivalent to NSNs; do major warship
>classes have such numbers?

Imperial vessels seem to be much more standardized when compared to the US 
Navy, so perhaps they issued as a unit.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 10:52:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  8 09:52:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D5C@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020808093629.009ed970@mindspring.com>

At 03:11 PM 8/7/02 -0400, you wrote:

>Great story from Vietnam. As usual can't remember the source:
>
>A local village mayor was known to be a VC supporter, but no one could prove
>it or do anything about it.
>One day some American intelligence types, after a firefight, threw some
>recovered VC bodies onto a jeep and drove into the village. They drove up to
>the mayor's house.
>Now, you have to picture this. The VC bodies are in full view of everyone in
>the village.
>As far as I know, the mayor did not speak English, and the Americans did not
>speak Vietnamese.
>The Americans smiled, clapped the horrified mayor on the back, and unloaded
>gifts of food, a radio, bundles of cash, etcetera, and drove off.
>Three guesses on how long the mayor lived after that?

That's a trick sometimes used by the police to turn an informant.  Arrest a 
bunch of people at a crack house.  Tell your target that he's going to be 
let go without charges, right in front of all the other detainees.  The 
target usually panics, and will do anything not to be treated differently.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 11:13:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Aug  8 10:13:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Spam Spam Spam Spam...
References: <11b.147a05c3.2a82e8cc@cs.com> <20020808101200.30a20555.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <3D52A656.4040309@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Jens Rydholm wrote:
> On Wed, 07 Aug 2002 17:19:08 -0400 (EDT)
> Damage169@cs.com wrote:
> 
> 
>>More like, "Groat Musk Perfume would be a nasty thing to suffer a container 
>>breach while in the PC's cargo hold..." Especially in a S-class Scout/Courier.
> 
> 
> Yes, that would be a very nasty problem. Very subtle. How would the PCs notice that the cargo container had been damaged?

Scout 1:"Sven...you smell that??!!"
Scout 2:"Yah, Joe...it smells *nice* in here!"
S1, S2 (simultaneously) "Oh sh*t!!!" <dive for vaccsuits)



-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 11:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  8 10:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
Message-ID: <20020808172611.81955.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>

>Great story from Vietnam. As usual can't remember the source:
>
>A local village mayor was known to be a VC supporter, but no one 
>could prove it or do anything about it.

That's disinformation at its best.  I've read the story, but I can't
remember where.  Maybe it's in Dispatches by Michael (?) Herr.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 11:35:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  8 10:35:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re: army usage
Message-ID: <20020808173458.40698.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>

>This is true and not contrary to what I said at all. 

It only contradicts your statement that the Taliban was composed
primarily of members of a tribe in southwestern Afghanistan.  As
someone else pointed out, neither of us were precisely correct nor
completely wrong.

>ObTrav: How does the citizens of a world view interference into
their
>local affairs by the Imperium? I guess that it is takes a wide range
>of sentiments, but that most worlds really want to settle their 
>issues wiyhout the IMperium medeling. Even if it means a nuclear
war.

In my Traveller universe, most worlds prefer to do everything
themselves, or in cooperation with their neighbors, without any
Imperial interference or "assistance" -- except when they really need
it, like when a foreign power invades.  Sometimes worlds will seek
Imperial assistance in mediating a conflict to avoid war, but not
always.  This is one of the reasons the Imperium tries to keep
weapons of mass destruction out of the hands of its member states, or
at least to keep such weapons tied to defense of the system from
foreign powers.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 11:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  8 10:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  vilis landgrab
Message-ID: <20020808175404.91566.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com>

>These leads to problems between the Ine Givar factions, since the
>Regina faction is rigourously pansophontist, while the Sword Worlder
>faction are very soft on the question.

Only the Solidariti splinter group is "rigourously pansophontist." 
The Credo Front supports a pansophontist platform, but does not
become distracted by what are currently minor doctrinal issues. 
"When the agents of the oppressors start shooting, your first thought
must be to shoot back, not whether you hold the gun in your right
hand or your left."*

>The Regina faction only rarely engages in terrorism, and prefers to 
>organise non-violently. 

Riiiight.  This must have been written by a Solidariti member; they
are masters of keeping a straight face.

--Subcommander Cosram, Credo Front of the Ine Givar Movement

*Black Book of Quotations of Zid Rachele 2:66

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 12:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bernie McGeehan)
Date: Thu Aug  8 11:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] 100 ton scout ship?
In-Reply-To: <berka_3d4644bb22764@webmail.berka.com>
Message-ID: <20020808184852.12064.qmail@web13403.mail.yahoo.com>

I found this while flipping through the pages of
Space.com....Vilani contact teams in Illinois?
Hmmmmm...
<a href= "http://www.space.com/php/multimedia/imagedisplay/img_display.php?pic=h_black_trihigh_02,0.jpg&cap=Estimated%20to%20be%20600%20feet%20long%20and%20300%20feet%20wide,%20with%20a%20height%20of%2040%20feet,%20the%20Black%20Triangle%20could%20weigh%20as%20much%20as%20100%20tons.%20%20Courtesy%20of%20National%20Institute%20for%20Discovery%20Science%20(NIDS)">http://www.space.com/php/multimedia/imagedisplay/img_display.php?pic=h_black_trihigh_02,0.jpg&cap=Estimated%20to%20be%20600%20feet%20long%20and%20300%20feet%20wide,%20with%20a%20height%20of%2040%20feet,%20the%20Black%20Triangle%20could%20weigh%20as%20much%20as%20100%20tons.%20%20Courtesy%20of%20National%20Institute%20for%20Discovery%20Science%20(NIDS)</a>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 12:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  8 11:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
Message-ID: <200208081849.MIR02148@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry says
>I also found a NSN number for a nuclear reactor.

Now all you need is your own jump drive.
________________
It is impossible to travel faster than 
the speed of light and certainly not 
desirable, as ones hat keeps falling 
off...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 13:27:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Thu Aug  8 12:27:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial taxes
In-Reply-To: <20020803223629.15105.10842.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208082116470.9347-100000@ask.diku.dk>

David P. Summers writes:
>At 12:30 AM -0400 8/3/02, hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>>In your opinion, does the Imperium charge a "head tax" or does it charge
>>an income tax on its citizens for its Imperial Budget requirements?  In
>>short, if the Imperial government taxes 10% of a Gross Planetary Product,
>>then it would in essence be an income tax.  If it charges a flat 500 CR
>>per person on a planet, then it is a head tax.  Which is it?

According to _Striker_, the Imperium charges each world (or in the case
of balkanized worlds, each nation) a percentage of its total military
budget (These budgets, in turn, are based on GWPs, but this may be a
simplification for gaming purposes). It does not say how this sum is
collected. I assume that the Imperium gets a check from each government.

>>And I find it an interesting thought here.  If the Imperium charges say,
>>3% of a planet's gross planetary product for its military taxes - this ta=
x
>>is on top of the local ruler's/government's tax.  How much in the way of
>>taxes can a population take before its economy begins to stagnate?

Again according to _Striker_ total military budgets ranges from 1-15% of
GWP, 1% being after a long period of peace and 15% being when actually at
war.=A0Average for the Imperium is 3%. Real world examples show that
countries can manage 8-9% more or less indefinitely and more than 15% for
a while (although this tends to put a severe strain on the economy).

>My impression is that imperial taxes are very indirect (they collect
>money from the member states.  The only direct taxes are the fees
>they collect at starports?

That seems to be the case. It is unclear how much, if anything, the
Imperium collects for expenses other than military ones (and whether or
not the Scouts come out of the military budget or not). I think it quite
possible that the Emperor's Share of all interstellar companies is enough
to pay for the Imperial bureaucracy.


Hans



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 14:19:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  8 13:19:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Lawyers should look into this...
Message-ID: <200208082017.MIT04892@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I was reading the LA Times, and I thought I was reading Book 
4.

"They envision super soldiers, arriving silently by stealth 
helicopter,"

ok, a grav vehicle full of commandos...

"wearing temperature-controlled suits that can repel chemical 
and biological agents and make an individual nearly invisible 
by suppressing infrared and other telltale signatures, 
including body odor."

ok, combat environment suit with chameleon mod...

"They envision silent guns"

ok, a gauss rifle

"and lightweight, blast-intensive explosives, futuristic 
arsenals of dazzling lasers and high-power microwave and 
acoustic weapons."

hmm...  And your parents may have told you that none of that 
science fiction roleplaying game you and your friends were 
playing in the basement would ever come to pass...
________________
It is impossible to travel faster than 
the speed of light and certainly not 
desirable, as ones hat keeps falling 
off...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 14:23:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Aug  8 13:23:05 2002
Subject: [TML] 100 ton scout ship?
In-Reply-To: <20020808184852.12064.qmail@web13403.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <berka_3d4644bb22764@webmail.berka.com>
 <20020808184852.12064.qmail@web13403.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020808222246.2f21bbe3.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Thu, 08 Aug 2002 11:48:52 -0700 (PDT)
Bernie McGeehan <einreb62@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I found this while flipping through the pages of
> Space.com....Vilani contact teams in Illinois?

Is there any way to find the article to which the picture belongs? The "Return to story" link is history based (and thus doesn't work).

Meanwhile, I played around a bit with the URL. Try this one instead.

http://www.space.com/php/multimedia/imagedisplay/img_display.php?pic=h_black_trihigh_02,0.jpg&cap=All%20your%20base%20are%20belong%20to%20us

Note to self: Don't make web pages that have this bug/feature.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 15:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Thu Aug  8 14:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <02080817101100.00601@linux>

> > 	How many dinky airless rockballs with large populations do the
> > world generation rules permit?
>
> What does that matter?  They obviously don't need trade for survival.
> It's not like they'll starve if you isolate them.
>
>
	I know that they won't starve. Out of curiosity, I decided to work out what 
might happen though. 
My assumptions were : A100999-F  3 gg's     1 belt       hi va na   f5VI
			all 2d6=7 to be average and show possible outcomes for 1d6
			population mod=5

	First I tried Hard Times without imposing any war damage and only cutting 
trade.  It predicted a 33% chance of the Class a starport dropping to b, 
followed by a 2 to 5 point drop in tech level. This is caused presumably by 
the abandonment of the economy by the megacorps and other trade. This would 
cause a big recession forcing the government to increase law level by 3 to 5 
points in order to control rioting, civil unrest, etc. By the fifth year, 
things level out again, but there is a chance that a coup, or revolution 
takes place ( gov changes to feudal technocracy, martial law, or oligarchy).
	Then I tried  Pocket Empires. Everything is fine except that net per capita 
income seems awfully low. If that represents the middle class, then the poor 
will be starving or in the military or on welfare.
	Finally, I tried world tamer's handbook, though not a full sim. 
Food production is not a problem at tech 15, however even at t15, the surface 
area required to grow food is much greater than exists on the surface of the 
rockball without even considering area for housing or industry or materials 
production. IT would take a tech 15 arcology 25000 km^2 just to house 
everyone. As all hydroponics would be underground, there would also be huge 
power requirements just to grow the food. Again, wealth distribution would be 
the deciding factor as to who starved and who ate well.
	So , no, the dinky rockballs don't need outside trade. Yes, it could really 
suck to live on one though. The system must really be bad to force the choice 
of settling the entire population of the earth on a planetoid half the 
diameter of the moon. 
	hmmm. as a rpg setting, it could be fun. endless corridors and caverns 
during a bloody revolution? anyone for a game of doom?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 15:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Kerby)
Date: Thu Aug  8 14:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] I won the lottery!
In-Reply-To: <sd5254a9.055@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
Message-ID: <000901c23f22$46a658e0$44cbb3cf@yourg4lzvxou0c>

Its people like you that cause unrest... or salivating at the mouth in
anticipation of lists...

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Jeff D. Greenly
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 10:23 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] I won the lottery!

And now, from the I can't believe this actually happened to me files...

My SO and I were out shopping and running errands last night after
work. On the way home, she noticed that there were signs for a yard sale
to begin this morning and extend through Saturday. Never ones to pass up
good deals or good junk, we decided that if there was anyone/anything
out there this morning as we were on our way to work, we'd stop and take
a quick look...

Well, the sponsors of this particular sale were setting out their stuff
as we came up this morning, and my eye was immediately drawn to several
boxes of books that they were beginning to unpack. There were a LOT of
old science fiction paperbacks, and I started rummaging through them,
picking out a few that I wanted to buy. Out of the corner of my eye, I
noticed a familiar cover design as a box was opened, one that was black
with a red stripe! I turned to look into the box, and lo! a fairly
complete Classic Traveller collection!!!! The whole box was full of
LBB's, box sets, box games, and a copy of 5FW! I asked why these were
being sold, and the lady explained that her son was grown and in the
service and had said that he didn't want any of this stuff any more. I
asked her what she would take for the whole box, and she looked at me
with surprise, then said, "Well, how about 20 bucks?" 

As soon as I've done an inventory, I'll post a list of what's available
to sell and trade...


Jeff

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 15:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thing)
Date: Thu Aug  8 14:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] 100 ton scout ship?
References: <berka_3d4644bb22764@webmail.berka.com><20020808184852.12064.qmail@web13403.mail.yahoo.com> <20020808222246.2f21bbe3.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <001d01c23f23$20c6cd20$0100a8c0@pentacle>

On Thursday, August 08, 2002 1:22 PM
Jens Rydholm said,

> Is there any way to find the article to which the picture belongs? The
"Return to story" link is history based (and thus doesn't work).
>
> Meanwhile, I played around a bit with the URL. Try this one instead.
>
>
http://www.space.com/php/multimedia/imagedisplay/img_display.php?pic=h_black
_trihigh_02,0.jpg&cap=All%20your%20base%20are%20belong%20to20us

I believe this is the article in question.

http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/black_triangle_020805.htm
l

G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
Grand Master of the Electron Flow
Minion to SheChemist and GothBunny
==========================
"I have taken all knowledge to be my province." -Francis Bacon


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 15:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Aug  8 14:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  vilis landgrab
References: <20020808190005.17449.17738.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c23f25$6fcf6d80$f1b18b90@computer>

> From: "Glenn M. Goffin" 
> --Subcommander Cosram, Credo Front of the Ine Givar Movement

Splitters!

On behalf of the Regina Regional Committee of the Ine Givar (Solidariti)

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 15:45:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Aug  8 14:45:27 2002
Subject: [TML] How many Xboats...
In-Reply-To: <200208081636.MIN00707@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208081636.MIN00707@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020809074313.A2995@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:

> If the boats leave on the hour (assuming a 24 hour clock), and the
> planet has a route to two other systems, then there are at least 48
> x-boats (there should be spares, to allow for maintenance rotation).

Given that the cycle time for any given x-boat is no less than two
weeks, if they depart on the hour to two other systems then you'll
need about 700 of them.


> I'm not sure if some systems would want to have an x-boat on the
> half-hour, or more often.

How many systems could *afford* an x-boat on the half-hour?  Would it
be worth the cost?  I doubt it.

X-boats that depart on the half-hour don't arrive on the half-hour.
Sending them more often than half a day or so starts to run into the
uncertainty of +-16 hours in the duration of each jump.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 15:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  8 14:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How many Xboats...
Message-ID: <200208082149.MIX01956@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>X-boats that depart on the half-hour don't arrive on the 
>half-hour.
>Sending them more often than half a day or so starts to run 
>into the uncertainty of +-16 hours in the duration of each 
>jump.

I believe that at a minimum, people would want at least a 
daily run.
________________
It is impossible to travel faster than 
the speed of light and certainly not 
desirable, as ones hat keeps falling 
off...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 15:54:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Aug  8 14:54:04 2002
Subject: [TML] animals
Message-ID: <Springmail.0994.1028843628.0.04003000@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>

Flykiller@aol.com posted:
> 
> Hummingbee
<snip> 
> Flying Cougar

Try the Singapore native snake. A story about it was posted today at:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/DailyNews/snake020807.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 16:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Aug  8 15:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] 100 ton scout ship?
References: <berka_3d4644bb22764@webmail.berka.com><20020808184852.12064.qmail@web13403.mail.yahoo.com> <20020808222246.2f21bbe3.jenry023@student.liu.se> <001d01c23f23$20c6cd20$0100a8c0@pentacle>
Message-ID: <3D52EBE3.1030401@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Thing wrote:

 > 
http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/black_triangle_020805.htm
 >  l

Just a quick email note. If you enclose your url's in <> brackets, most
capable email clients will recognize and assemble even multiline url's
properly.

http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/black_triangle_020805.htm
l

Will most likely give a 404 error, but

<http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/black_triangle_020805.html>

usually will work, even if it's broken over two lines

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 16:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 15:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT Help Needed
Message-ID: <7f.2a5ba891.2a844764@aol.com>

I need the help of the list with my MSc.

I am studying the Public Understanding of Science (PUS) and have decided to 
harness the Power Of The Internet(tm) to investigate peoples knowledge and 
attitudes about cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) and "do not resuscitate" 
DNAR orders.

Anyone who would like to help can do so by filling in an online survey and by 
letting others know the URL and what I'm after. More information and access 
to the questionnaire can be found at:

http://members.aol.com/researchfiend/index.html

Thanks in advance to all those who agree to help.  

Charles

I addressed some cheerful chit-chat at the man opposite but was rewarded with 
grunt. I tried the man next to me but he just looked at the gentleman I had 
tried first and said "Do you know what he's talking about?" At this point I 
realised I was getting out my depth but the Dean stepped in and saved me, "Oh 
don't worry about it" he said, "They're mathematicians - we never talk to 
them."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 16:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Aug  8 15:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <02080817101100.00601@linux>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux>
Message-ID: <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>

richard honeycutt wrote:
> My assumptions were : A100999-F  3 gg's     1 belt       hi va na   f5VI
[...]
> 	First I tried Hard Times without imposing any war damage and only cutting 
> trade.  It predicted a 33% chance of the Class a starport dropping to b, 
> followed by a 2 to 5 point drop in tech level. This is caused presumably by 
> the abandonment of the economy by the megacorps and other trade.

Good lord!  That seems way out of whack with the actual level of trade
the planet has according to the Far Trader rules.  I get a total
external trade level of about 300 GCr/year, and average GWP of 60 TCr
per year.

Would the loss of trade worth 0.5% of their economy really have that
drastic an effect within a year or two?  I think most people wouldn't
even notice.  I can understand that the starport might drop to B
through disuse, though probably only if it doesn't have any
intrasystem traffic (that might be why a 33% chance).

A massive drop in tech level seems *exceedingly* unlikely though.  In
trade volume terms, it would be like the Phillipines "abandoning" the
economy of the rest of the world, causing the rest of the world to
experience a massive economic slump, rioting, civil unrest, and
reversion to pre-WWI technology.  No offense to inhabitants of the
Phillipines, but I don't think they prop up the rest of the world.

Likewise, I don't think the minute volume of trade props up the
high-pop worlds in Traveller.


> Food production is not a problem at tech 15, however even at t15,
> the surface area required to grow food is much greater than exists
> on the surface of the rockball

That's broken.  An average hectare per person assigned to food
production is ample even with current technology and without trying
hard.  Tech level 15 should be able to do *much* better.


> without even considering area for housing or industry or materials
> production. IT would take a tech 15 arcology 25000 km^2 just to
> house everyone.

Given that the rockball has a surface area of more than 30000000 km^2,
that's not a concern.


> As all hydroponics would be underground, there would also be huge
> power requirements just to grow the food.

That's not a problem, even if you do decide to abandon the surface.
Traveller fusion power is *really* cheap.  A megawatt would cost no
more than Cr10/week.  It would certainly take much less power than a
megawatt per person to grow food.

In fact, it takes less than a hundred kilowatts per person at current
tech without any concern for energy efficiency.  Yes, that's including
light input.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 16:35:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Aug  8 15:35:05 2002
Subject: [TML] How many Xboats...
In-Reply-To: <200208082149.MIX01956@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208082149.MIX01956@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020809083445.C2995@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> I believe that at a minimum, people would want at least a daily run.

I agree -- half a day between X-boats would be about right, I think.
So what if many of them arrive in the wrong order? :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 16:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Aug  8 15:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How many Xboats...
In-Reply-To: <200208082149.MIX01956@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D539CBE.10878.42BDF9@localhost>

On 8 Aug 2002 at 17:49, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Timothy Little says
> >X-boats that depart on the half-hour don't arrive on the 
> >half-hour.
> >Sending them more often than half a day or so starts to run 
> >into the uncertainty of +-16 hours in the duration of each 
> >jump.
> 
> I believe that at a minimum, people would want at least a 
> daily run.

I've always assumed a daily run down each branch IMTU, plus assorted 
special runs as required.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 16:50:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  8 15:50:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux>
 <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <02080817101100.00601@linux>
 <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <m3sn1p7yq7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:
> 
> That's broken.  An average hectare per person assigned to food
> production is ample even with current technology and without trying
> hard.  Tech level 15 should be able to do *much* better.

You can feed a man on 2 1/2 acres?  What would you be planting?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I've resigned myself to seeing everything I consider meritorious slowly
destroyed by the forces of corruption, greed and stupidity, but it's
really adding insult to injury that they can't even maintain a facade of
competence.                                                --Tim Mefford

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 17:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Aug  8 16:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3D53003A.1070102@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Timothy Little wrote:
> richard honeycutt wrote:
> 
>>My assumptions were : A100999-F  3 gg's     1 belt       hi va na   f5VI
> 
> [...]
> 
>>	First I tried Hard Times without imposing any war damage and only cutting 
>>trade.  It predicted a 33% chance of the Class a starport dropping to b, 
>>followed by a 2 to 5 point drop in tech level. This is caused presumably by 
>>the abandonment of the economy by the megacorps and other trade.
> 
> 
> Good lord!  That seems way out of whack with the actual level of trade
> the planet has according to the Far Trader rules.  I get a total
> external trade level of about 300 GCr/year, and average GWP of 60 TCr
> per year.

This is because all of the above econmomic models (Hard Times, GT:FT, 
WBH, WTH) are all a) mutually incompatible, and b) subject to widely 
varying assumptions.

You can't compare these, and which model is correct depends on which 
rule set you use.

In general econometric analysis of the OTU is going to be pretty much 
hopeless, imo, because the gaps in data are so much larger than the data.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 18:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Thu Aug  8 17:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020806113510.45efd91c@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEOGEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>IMHO, the model for Arbellatra is Augustus--not Julius--Caesar. That is,
she
>>was more a illiant politician than a brilliant general. I base this on a
few
>>factors:
>
>Good model.  I was thinking a bit of Hitler, personally.  Same kind of
>personal magnetism.
>
Charisma in a politician  to this extent is not entirely unknown across the
political spectrum. Julius Caesar certainly had it, as did Alexander the
Great, as well as possibly Franklin Roosevelt and Hitler.

>>1) She essentially lost the 2FW but still managed to declare victory and
>>mobilize the Marches behind her. (Remember, the Imperium ceded territory
to
>>the Zhodani after the war, and Library Data mentions that the final
>>engagement resulted in a "stalemate" between the two sides. She basically
>>one the war the same way the U.S. "won" the War of 1812--by not losing as
>>badly as expected.)
>
>This might have come from misunderstanding Zhodani war goals.  Arbellatra
>probably knew from the start that the Zhodani wanted to remove the Imperium
>from Zhodani territory, not destroy the Imperium.  But playing up the image
>of the Zho's as barbarians helped her cause.  A draw was as good as a
>victory to her.

I suspect that she did know more about the Zhodani than her contemporaries.
The Zhos have never been expansionist and have only attempted to restrain
the Imperium's expansionistic tendencies.

<snip>
>
>>3) Her masterly stroke of refusing the crown is remarkably similar to
>>Augustus' own "retirement" from government--while in truth retaining a
firm
>>grip on the reins of power. (The people of Rome demanded at one point that
>>he publish a list of candidates he favored, so they would know who to vote
>>for--not from coercion, but from a devotion to Augustus.)
>
>It is her that I am of two minds..  I sort of like the idea that she
>honestly meant to find a surviving Zhunastu heir; only taking the throne
>when that proved impossible.
>

I  also like the idea that she was most concerned with the Imperium and
honestly tried to find an heir.

>>My interpretation may also explain her meteoric rise to high command at
such
>>a young age--perhaps her title of Grand Admiral of the Marches was a
>>ceremonial one, or rank was determined by noble standing to a much greater
>>degree in the antebellum Imperium. (Indeed, perhaps Arbellatra reformed
the
>>military to make it more egalitarian, not only to prevent a rival from
>>rising in a fashion like her own, but to insure loyalty to the Emperor and
>>the Imperium and not the individual commander, as seems to be the case
with
>>Plankwell and the other Emperors of the Flag.)
>
>"Nothing succeeds like success" they say.  I've always sensed that along
>with being politically brilliant, she was possibly the greatest strategic
>and tactical mind the Imperium ever saw.  She was only 28 when the war
>broke out, according to canon.  I'd prefer to push her date of birth back
>to 567, making her 48 at the beginning of the war.  This at least gives her
>the age to have had a fairly long career and been at least an experienced
>Captain or junior Admiral.  This would, IMHO, make her seizure of the
>fleets far more acceptable.  No one is going to listen to a pup of a Ltd.
>Commander.
>
Alexander the great succeeded to the thrown at the age of twenty. By the
time he was 32 he controlled nearly the entire known world, at least as
known to him. In a society where a child's future position of command is
known at a very early age military training would start at a very young age.
I see her as reading Sun Tsu by age nine and Machiavelli by age twelve. If
she was a prodigy she could have been an ensign by age 18 or 20. If she was
successful in actual combat missions, against pirates or corsairs she could
have risen rapidly, or perhaps she outfitted her own ship and was actually a
"privateer noble" captain before the war. Francis Drake was a ships captain
at the age of twenty, and already a legendary privateer at that time.

The fact is we don't know how the Imperial fleet was made up at that time.
CT's character generation rules seem to indicate that the IN during the
1100's follows modern (20th century) wet Navy practices, with Naval
Academies, OCS, etc. This doesn't really say anything about how the Imperial
Navy operated four hundred years earlier.

The U.S. Naval Academy (the original one at Philadelphia not the one at
Annapolis) was founded because young officers (who were trained aboard ship
as midshipmen as described in the Hornblower novels) rebelled and Navy
leaders wanted them to have a more formal education, which included more
stringent discipline in a more controlled setting.

If officers of Arbellatra's time were trained in the fleet, instead of on
planet at an academy, then she could have been an officer while still in her
teens. If ships and fleets were personally raised by nobles, then if she
showed herself competent or her family had enough money she could very well
have been a captain while still in her twenties. Such a fleet would be more
loyal to the people who raised it that to the Imperium, or at least to the
Emperor.

I like her young age. It fits in well with a more age of sail feel for the
setting during this time. A closer tie between a fleet's admiral's and
officers and the men and women manning the ships would result if all the
fleets were colonial in nature. It explains why Plankwell's fleet followed
him to capital, without a serious dissenting voice. And why the other fleets
would follow their leaders without seriously protesting in the name of the
Emperor.

I could really get into this period. I find it much more interesting than
the Interstellar War period. (Sorry Loren.)



Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 18:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  8 17:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How many Xboats...
Message-ID: <200208090022.MJB03321@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>So what if many of them arrive in the wrong order? :)

Your email can arrive in the wrong order, theoretically.  But 
everything has a timestamp specifying the incept of the 
message.
________________
It is impossible to travel faster than 
the speed of light and certainly not 
desirable, as ones hat keeps falling 
off...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 18:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  8 17:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
Message-ID: <200208090025.MJB03477@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Robert Uhl asks
>You can feed a man on 2 1/2 acres?  What would you be 
>planting?

Soylent green.
________________
It is impossible to travel faster than 
the speed of light and certainly not 
desirable, as ones hat keeps falling 
off...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 19:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 18:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] jenry023@student.liu.se
Message-ID: <a.2330244c.2a8474ff@aol.com>

 >I am working on creating a Traveller campaign in which your adventure would 
fit  >nicely, though... will run it as soon as one of the other campaigns 
end...

Please let me know how it turns out.  Thanks.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 19:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Aug  8 18:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <m3sn1p7yq7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
 <02080313391901.00601@linux>
 <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <02080817101100.00601@linux>
 <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020808214249.025e5ec8@192.168.0.1>

At 04:49 PM 8/8/2002 -0600, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
>Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:
> >
> > That's broken.  An average hectare per person assigned to food
> > production is ample even with current technology and without trying
> > hard.  Tech level 15 should be able to do *much* better.
>
>You can feed a man on 2 1/2 acres?  What would you be planting?

Well, first off, as Bruce Johnson said, all the various version are mostly 
incompatible with each other.

Second, I keep see folks say stuff like "well, at TL 15 this isn't a 
problem".  All of the Imperium is not running at TL 15.
You have TL 12 & TL 11 or lower rockballs out there.  Sure they can import 
cool high tech stuff, but how long can a TL 9 rockball support TL 15 
equipment on their own?

As to what they grow to get that yield, there are things that will do it, 
like the blue green algae I mentioned before.
That makes a boring diet though. It's a good staple, but for long term 
usage, you're gonna want to have variety.
If it's too expensive to import, then you have to grow it locally.  Ya, 
beef is great stuff, but it takes a lot of grain to feed a cow, and then 
space for the cow.

Space is big, even if you just limit it to Imperial Space, it's big.
You will probably find a wide range of solutions.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 19:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Thu Aug  8 18:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Do I have to Yahoo! ?
Message-ID: <000c01c23f32$9edea020$c9c4d63f@customer>

Could someone tell me if it is necessary to follow these instructions to
subscribe to The JTAS

John Scarlett

Hello jlscarlett@earthlink.net,

We have received your request to join the JTAS
group hosted by Yahoo! Groups, a free, easy-to-use community service.

This request will expire in 21 days.

TO BECOME A MEMBER OF THE GROUP:

1) Go to the Yahoo! Groups site by clicking on this link:


http://groups.yahoo.com/i?i=abztGutj6OteVF9ZVJaJNO_whCU&e=jlscarlett%40earth
link%2Enet

  (If clicking doesn't work, "Cut" and "Paste" the line above into your
   Web browser's address bar.)

-OR-

2) REPLY to this email by clicking "Reply" and then "Send"
   in your email program

If you did not request, or do not want, a membership in the
JTAS group, please accept our apologies
and ignore this message.

Regards,

Yahoo! Groups Customer Care

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 19:57:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Thu Aug  8 18:57:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Food requirements for people
In-Reply-To: <200208090025.MJB03477@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020808220125.0295d6b0@mail.buffnet.net>

For what it is worth - in medieval times, a family of 5, 2 adults and 3 
children, could survive on the produce of 15 acres per year.  This works 
out to 3 acres on average per person.  Keep in mind as well, that the 15 
acres of land no only supported the 5 people, but produced enough surplus 
that for every 10 peasant families working the land, 1 city family was 
supported.  Overall, I'm guessing that each 3 acres of land provided enough 
support for 1.1 people on average.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 20:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Thu Aug  8 19:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020806114206.364f75c8@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNIEOHEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>The one thing I can't stand is the ship designs. I loath the Caen. Among
>>other problems: Where are the navy ratings bunked? They certainly wouldn't
>>be with the Marines, not since the rest of canon says that they should be
>>living in staterooms, which I would suppose are separate from the
officer's
>>staterooms. I could go on and on about the failings of the design, but I
>>don't want to rant.
>
>I have problems with the Caen deckplans myself.  It was designed as a very
>"close" ship, and I did put in that the rest of the Navy thinks the crews
>that work the Caens are oddballs.  If you have an improved design, I'd love
>to see it.
>--
>
>Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com

Here's a slightly revised Caen design, with a nod to Heinlein:

1,200-ton Roger Young -class Dropship, Davy Crockett (TL12)
Crew: 30 Total. 20 Command and Control, 1 Maneuver Drive, 1 Jump Drive, 2
Medical, 4 Nuclear Damper Operators, 1 Weapon Bay Gunners, 2 Turret Gunners.
Hull: 1,200-ton USL, Medium Frame, Standard Materials, Bonded Superdense
(Expensive) Armored Hull (DR 2,000, Thermal Super-conducting Armor,
Psi-Shielded, Instant Chameleon, LCD Skin), Standard Compartmentalization.
Control Areas: Command Bridge (Hardened, Complexity 10), Military
Information Center (Hardened, Complexity 10).
Communicator Range (mi)	Radio	Maser	Laser	Meson
Command Bridge	50,000,000	0	100,000,000	200,000

Sensors Range/Rating (mi)	Passive	Active	Radscanner
Command Bridge	100,000/41	200,000/43	30,000/38
Engineering: Engineering, 60 Jump Drive, 170 Maneuver Drive (3.03 / 3.86 Gs,
17,000 stons thrust), 240 Fuel Tank, 2 Fuel Processor (15 hours to refine ),
3 Utility.
Accommodations: 76 4 Person Bunkroom, 10 Stateroom, 2 Sickbay (6 Patients),
Operating Theater (2 Patients), 2 Low Berth (8 Cryoberths), 20 Drop Capsule
Rack (320 Users), 2 Drop Capsule Launcher, 16 Battle Dress Morgue (320
Users), 3 Shooting Range (6 Users), 3 Gymnasium (12 Users), Military
Holoventure.
Armaments: Nuclear Damper (10 mi), 1 Lg Internal Bay Battery of 1 (Lg Lt
Missile Bay [8200], Lg Lt Missile Bay Load [x8200]), 2 Turret Batteries of 1
each (DR 1,000, 3x405 Mj Std Laser[RoF Bonus +1]).
Weapon Name	Qty	Type	Acc	SS	Dmg	RoF	1/2 Rng	Max
Lg Lt Missile Bay [8200]	1					(+0)		10,000,000/1000
405 Mj Std Laser	6	Imp	33	30	5dx100(2)	1/60 (+7)	26000/3	78100/8

Missiles/Probes	Qty	DR	G-Rds	Exp Dmg	KK-Dmg	Size	AMod	PMod
Lg Lt Missile Bay Load [x8200]	1	120	10G-30	6dx80(10)	6dx100(5)	0	-8	-8
Stores: 55 Vehicle Bay (55 dtons for small craft available).
Statistics: DMass 4,165.47 stons, EMass 4,405.47 stons, LMass 5,609.17
stons, Base Cost MCr404.64, Load Cost MCr172.28, Total Cost MCr576.92, HP
75,000, Damage Threshold 7,500, Size Mod +10, HT 12, 96.6 Man-Hours/day
Maintenance.
Space Performance: Jump-4, sAcc 3.03/3.03/3.86/4.08 Gs.
Air Performance: aSpeed 600 mph, Skimming aSpeed 11,692 mph, aLift 17,000
stons.
Sample Times : Orbit 0.11 Hrs, Escape Velocity 0.16 Hrs, 100D 3.67 Hrs,
Earth-Mars 62.97 Hrs.
Options
All times are Earth Std, Full Load.
100D and Earth-Mars assume mid-point turnover.
Printed with GMV Version 2.32.01 on 08/08/2002 9:33:24 PM
Copyright (c) 2002 by I.T. Carlino

I reduced the armor to 2000 and the speed to 3 G, fully loaded. This thing
isn't going to be fighting in the line of battle.  This speed should be
adequate. It's still almost as fast as a Keith Transport, and faster than a
Nakerkh lander. This let me reduce the M-drives enough to replace the bunk
rooms with 4 person staterooms. (I hope I got them right. I doubled the cost
and weight of a two man stateroom, so I probably over compensated.)

The write up says that the Imperium normally loads out bunkrooms with 4
person per stateroom. It strikes me that this kind of Dropship will
typically be on patrol with Marines ready to deploy. So the four person per
room makes sense to me. I hope Starships has an official 4 person stateroom
module. I certainly pushed it hard enough during the playtest. I included 10
Staterooms for officers. Four are for ships officers and the other six for
Marine Officers

Of the 20 Command and Control personnel half should be Marines in the
Military Information Center, which I would suppose is the same as the Caen's
Tactical Command Center.

Crew will consist of Captain, Pilot, Navigator, Chief Engineer, Doctor, as
well as more engineers than indicated above. Probably at least 4 more. I
would expect 6 ship officers sharing 3 staterooms with the captain have a
stateroom to herself. The troop commander will probably have a private
stateroom also. With the rest being shared by the rest of the Marine
Officers.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 20:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug  8 19:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Do I have to Yahoo! ?
Message-ID: <177.cae8ad7.2a847ccf@aol.com>

--part1_177.cae8ad7.2a847ccf_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> Could someone tell me if it is necessary to follow these instructions to
> subscribe to The JTAS.

Hmmm.

The JTAS group on Yahoo! is mostly just for announcements of new
content in the real Journal of the Traveller's Aid Society. I've never seen
it used for anything else.

If you want to subscribe to JTAS itself - the actual webzine currently
run by Steve Jackson Games - you can go to http://jtas.sjgames.com/ .
There are samples of content that you can look at before deciding
whether you want to subscribe or not, and I believe you can actually
subscribe using a link from that page.

Enjoy.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."

--part1_177.cae8ad7.2a847ccf_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>&gt; Could someone tell me if it is necessary to follow these instructions to
<BR>&gt; subscribe to The JTAS.
<BR>
<BR>Hmmm.
<BR>
<BR>The JTAS group on Yahoo! is mostly just for announcements of new
<BR>content in the real Journal of the Traveller's Aid Society. I've never seen
<BR>it used for anything else.
<BR>
<BR>If you want to subscribe to JTAS itself - the actual webzine currently
<BR>run by Steve Jackson Games - you can go to http://jtas.sjgames.com/ .
<BR>There are samples of content that you can look at before deciding
<BR>whether you want to subscribe or not, and I believe you can actually
<BR>subscribe using a link from that page.
<BR>
<BR>Enjoy.
<BR>
<BR>----------
<BR>Jon F. Zeigler
<BR>Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
<BR>jon@sjgames.com
<BR>"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."</FONT></HTML>

--part1_177.cae8ad7.2a847ccf_boundary--

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 20:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug  8 19:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Stripmime
Message-ID: <B97873B1.69033%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Someone on the TML kindly modified Stripmime to allow messages without a
content type to get posted on the list (A fix for Leonard).  If that person
still has a copy, could they please contact me.  I've lost the original tha=
t
you sent me.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 20:20:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug  8 19:20:10 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Lawyers should look into this...
Message-ID: <20020809021802.34319.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com>

>Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 16:17:51 -0400
>
>"They envision silent guns"
>
>ok, a gauss rifle

Where did you get your silent gauss rifle?  The bullets in mine
always make a boom as they break the sound barrier.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 20:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Thu Aug  8 19:24:03 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <001a01c23f4b$b6502d00$7400a8c0@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Timothy Little" <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 11:33 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE


> richard honeycutt wrote:

> > As all hydroponics would be underground, there would also be huge
> > power requirements just to grow the food.
>
> That's not a problem, even if you do decide to abandon the surface.
> Traveller fusion power is *really* cheap.  A megawatt would cost no
> more than Cr10/week.  It would certainly take much less power than a
> megawatt per person to grow food.
>
> In fact, it takes less than a hundred kilowatts per person at current
> tech without any concern for energy efficiency.  Yes, that's including
> light input.

All fine and dandy. Basically your position is that due to the ready
availability of cheap fusion power and the relatively small volume of
interstellar trade, an isolated system is still essentially self-sufficient
in most circumstances. Fair enough.

However, the original post on this 'Failed World' topic was regarding their
prevalence in TNE. Battle Damage to infrastructure during Hard Times would
certainly cause short term (i.e. a few years) stress on a systems self
sufficiency. Parts designed with hundred or thousand year lifetimes (i.e.
major structural elements of Domed Cities etc) might require specialist
technology not available locally. The lack of external trade would hinder
efforts to obtain this technology (or replacement parts), which would not be
apparent in regular trading figures. Then Virus hits and suddenly your cheap
ubiquitous fusion reactors are... well... 'not operating to nominal
specification' probably sums it up best... neither is your life support.

If your planet is not capable of sustaining life without TL9+ tech (maybe
even as low as TL5+. Most airless rockballs won't have handy reserves of
fossil fuels...) then you are in trouble. And the numerous deaths that arise
are likely to take out the people most capable of repairing or redirecting
technology early on, as they will likely be the first to respond to the
numerous extremely hazardous emergencies that arise, with often fatal
consequences.

So, already stressed LS and Power supplies become actively hostile and
malignant. Help will not be coming from outside (any ship arriving is likely
to make a very abnormal re-entry... 'death-diving' into cities etc) and no
chance to escape off-planet either, unless you want to risk plunging back to
the ground in a Terminal fashion of having a very close encounter with
either the local star or vacuum. Rioting, looting, and hysteria will do even
more damage...

High TL is a wonderful thing for supporting billions of people in comfort on
otherwise inhospitable environments... but when your high TL *is* the
inhospitable environment you need to get as far away from it as possible.
And a billion shopworkers and accountants don't make the best farmers...
especially when your harvesting machinery is trying to eat you... witness
the end of Dulinor...

Matt






From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 20:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Burns)
Date: Thu Aug  8 19:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] 100 ton scout ship?
Message-ID: <20020809023547.29492.qmail@web10605.mail.yahoo.com>

On Thu, 08 Aug 2002 11:48:52 -0700 (PDT)
Bernie McGeehan wrote:


> I found this while flipping through the pages of
> Space.com....Vilani contact teams in Illinois?

"Well judging from the dimensions and estimated weight
I believe it is in fact the padded shipping container
for one Imperial Type S Scout/Courier. This just goes
to prove my suspicion that all UFO sightings and
contacts are with extraterrestial waste management
units. The requisite occasional abduction and testing
is to determine if we can finally be classified as a
hazardous waste sight so they can start dumping the
really nasty stuff. Watch the skies! The junk is out
there!" :)

On Thu, 8 Aug 2002 22:22:46 +0200
Jens Rydholm wrote:

Meanwhile, I played around a bit with the URL. Try
this one instead.

http://www.space.com/php/multimedia/imagedisplay/img_display.php?pic=h_black_trihigh_02,0.jpg&cap=All%20your%20base%20are%20belong%20to%20us

Note to self: Don't make web pages that have this
bug/feature.

"LOL That is just too funny! I suppose the nice thing
to do would be to tell them ;) perhaps in a creative
and fun way ;) like an anonymous e-mail with a "link"
to their article." :)

Dan "far-trader" Burns

still looking for 'the' definitive .sig file




______________________________________________________________________ 
Post your ad for free now! http://personals.yahoo.ca

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 20:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug  8 19:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Lawyers should look into this...
Message-ID: <200208090248.MJH00974@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Glenn M. Goffin" says
>Where did you get your silent gauss rifle?  The bullets in 
>mine always make a boom as they break the sound barrier.

Actually, I've fired quite a few rifle rounds with a 
suppressor - the crack is noticeable - but depending on where 
you are downrange, it may be impossible to localize the 
source of the firing.  The crack is heard as the round passes 
you by - if the round misses far to the right of you, you 
will hear the sound to your right, even if the shooter is 
nowhere to the right.  

More of a snapping sound in most cases - a light cracking.  
For people not familiar with the sound at all, it may or may 
not be identified as gunfire.

I would be that the gauss rifle would sound like this, except 
that the sound from the firing point would be non-existent.
________________
It is impossible to travel faster than 
the speed of light and certainly not 
desirable, as ones hat keeps falling 
off...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 21:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu Aug  8 20:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] 100 ton scout ship?
In-Reply-To: <3D52EBE3.1030401@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020809030206.EC91C2793F@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/08/02 at 03:08 PM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
said:

>Thing wrote:

> > 
>http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/black_triangle_020805.htm
> >  l

>Just a quick email note. If you enclose your url's in <> brackets,
>most capable email clients will recognize and assemble even multiline
>url's properly.

>http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/black_triangle_020805.htm
>l

>Will most likely give a 404 error, but

><http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/black_triangle_020805.html>

>usually will work, even if it's broken over two lines

Usually, perhaps, but not always. Mine doesn't.

Eris

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 21:05:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Thu Aug  8 20:05:30 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <20020806203758.D28821@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEOIEDAA.carlino@cox.net>

Terry Carlino wrote:
>
>> Part of the point would be to force ships attempting to traverse the
>> area to slow down, use sensors and weapons to clear the mine
>> field. This alone would make them detectable to opposing craft.
>
>I've not found detection of enemy craft to be much of a problem in my
>test-bed runs.  Usually the side with mines controls the system, sees
>the jump flash of any intruder, and can track everything they
>subsequently do.
>
>Maybe I'm just lacking battle experience against other people.  Is
>avoiding detection by the defender a possibility in most people's
>scenarios?
>
>
>- Tim

I guess a lot depends on the tactical conditions. If the system is only
moderately inhabited, with a small defense force an attacker may try a close
in jump and an immediate engagement with the enemy, especially if the
attacking fleet has battle riders and can synchronize their jumps (so that
all ship arrive at effectively the same time.) They may try to overwhelm the
defender.

If jumps cannot be synchronized then an attacking fleet is going to want to
come in far outside the 100 D limit where there is not likely to be a
defending fleet.

In the first case the defenders will see the jump flash, and probably be
able to follow the attackers from then on, especially if the have many
enhanced sensor stations spread throughout near space. In the second case
they will see the flash and know something's coming, but it still might take
days for the attacker's units to form up and weeks for them to actually
attack. How long can your forces stay on high alert before they start to
lose their edge?  Especially when there are dozens of flashes every day for
a week.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 21:12:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Aug  8 20:12:10 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Lawyers should look into this...
In-Reply-To: <20020809021802.34319.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020808200720.009fabd0@mindspring.com>

At 07:18 PM 8/8/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 16:17:51 -0400
> >
> >"They envision silent guns"
> >
> >ok, a gauss rifle
>
>Where did you get your silent gauss rifle?  The bullets in mine
>always make a boom as they break the sound barrier.

Most of the sound associated with weapons fire is the sound of the powder 
going off.  The crack of the bullet is negligible.  For example, a silenced 
.22LR is nearly silent in operation.

A 4mm gauss round would make a high pitched *crack* audible only to those 
near the flight path.


-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Some people have told me they don't think a fat penguin
really embodies the grace of Linux, which just tells me
they have never seen an angry penguin charging at them
in excess of 100 mph. They'd be a lot more careful about
what they say if they had. - Linus Torvalds




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 21:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug  8 20:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEOGEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEOGEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <m3k7n0d7ru.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Terry Carlino" <carlino@cox.net> writes:
>
> Alexander the great succeeded to the thrown at the age of twenty.  By
> the time he was 32 he controlled nearly the entire known world, at
> least as known to him. 

> I see her as reading Sun Tsu by age nine and Machiavelli by age
> twelve.  If she were a prodigy she could have been an ensign by age
> 18 or 20.  Francis Drake was a ships captain at the age of twenty,
> and already a legendary privateer at that time.

> The U.S. Naval Academy (the original one at Philadelphia not the one
> at Annapolis) was founded because young officers (who were trained
> aboard ship as midshipmen as described in the Hornblower novels)
> rebelled and Navy leaders wanted them to have a more formal
> education, which included more stringent discipline in a more
> controlled setting.

> If officers of Arbellatra's time were trained in the fleet, instead
> of on planet at an academy, then she could have been an officer
> while still in her teens.  If ships and fleets were personally
> raised by nobles, then if she showed herself competent or her family
> had enough money she could very well have been a captain while still
> in her twenties.  Such a fleet would be more loyal to the people who
> raised it than to the Imperium, or at least to the Emperor.

> I like her young age.  It fits in well with a more age of sail feel
> for the setting during this time.

_Exactly_.  Selections quoted for reiterative effect.  You've hit it
in a nutshell.

As a matter of fact, I am unconvinced that the modern
`generalist-to-18' model is long for this world.  I think that as
technology &c. progress further and further the great minds (as
opposed to the great masses) will more and more be schooled in their
subjects from the earliest age.  Particle physics at 4, advanced
quantum physics at 6, <whatever-replaces-it> at 10, and so on until
one has absorbed the entire history, progression and founding of one's
field.  It's rapidly becoming apparent that four years of college are
not enough; master's or doctoral work is necessary to truly _grok_ a
subject (and I write this as one without a master's or a doctorate).

The only workable solution, given that children of an early age are
not properly testable, is a system of like-father-like-son.  Which,
fortunately enough, ties into mankind's proclivities enough that it'll
probably work out nicely enough.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
America may be unique in being a country which has leapt from barbarism
to decadence without touching civilisation.               --John O'Hara

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug  8 22:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Aug  8 21:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] getting rid of a body (was Re: Yes PM)
In-Reply-To: <200208050251.MBX00823@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20808.205731.7y1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson says
> <snip the drawbacks of the various ways>
> I still think my method of lime, sulfur, and water works 
> rather well - I remember the demonstration we received with a 
> pig carcass - the bones and teeth were gone after a week 
> underground with the mixture.
>
> If you're lucky, and you work near a steel mill, there are 
> tanks where they recycle the sulfuric acid - they keep it at 
> about 18 M.  Drop someone in that (watch the splash) and 
> there won't be anything left.  The recycling process will 
> take care of the impurities.

Actually, thee are body parts (fats and things like gallstones) that
can survive that. So can *fillings*.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 03:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 02:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <m3sn1p7yq7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <m3sn1p7yq7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020809190630.A3949@freeman.little-possums.net>

Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> You can feed a man on 2 1/2 acres?  What would you be planting?

That's not quite the statement I made, since I was talking more like
100 farms of 100 hectares feeding ten thousand.  Your question implies
a single farm feeding one person who has to look after it all
themselves with small-scale tools.

With that qualification in mind, just about anything.  Each person
needs to eat about 0.3 tonnes per year of a balanced diet.


A potato crop of 30-40 tonnes per hectare is normal.  Cereal crops
tend to yield 3-5 tonnes per hectare.  Legumes typically yield 2-3
tonnes of edible produce per hectare.  Apples often yield 30 tonnes
per hectare.

Grain-fed meat animals typically eat about 15-20 times their dressed
carcass mass during growth, so about 0.2 tonnes per hectare including
both crops and feedlot space.  Farmed fish seem to do better, at about
3-5 times their mass of fillets in feed, for about 1 edible tonne per
year inclusive of feed.


You could devote 30% of the crop capacity to feed meat animals, 15% to
dairy animals and egg-laying chickens, 5% to fish, 10% to cereals for
human consumption, 10% to potatoes or similar basic staples, 10% to
legumes of various varieties, 5% for fruits such as apples, and 15% to
various other items that I haven't thought of yet.

With that mix, on average per hectare per day you could expect:

220 g of red meat
130 g of fish
260 g of eggs
1.4 L of milk
50 g of butter
1.4 kg of cereal products
6.8 kg of potatoes (!)
550 g of peas, beans, or lentils
4.1 kg of apples (or other fruits)

If you don't think this is enough to support a person for a day, you
*really* need to go on a diet ;)

Naturally, I'm not a dietician and the percentages were just plucked
out of the air.  Feel free to change them.  In particular, you should
reallocate heaps of area from human-edible produce to other purposes;
people don't need to eat anywhere near that much.

The yields themselves were *not* plucked out of the air, they were
gathered and cross-checked from various agricultural reports while I
should have been building a document control system today.


I'm actually rather surprised: my original estimate was based on just
eyeballing Tasmania's map and guessing how much of it feeds Tasmania's
population.  It looks like my original estimate of 1 hectare per
person was grossly high.  Based on these firmer and more authoritative
figures, 0.2 hectares per person should suffice.

And remember, this is all based on *current* technology, and with
little economic incentive for high yields per unit area of land.
(Ongoing expenses are far more significant than land values)

By TL15 you can almost certainly synthesize everything you need,
including getting the texture just right.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 03:08:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 02:08:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <3D53003A.1070102@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D53003A.1070102@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020809190742.B3949@freeman.little-possums.net>

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> You can't compare these, and which model is correct depends on which
> rule set you use.

Isn't this a bit deplorable, considering that they're all meant to be
describing the same universe?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 03:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 02:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020808214249.025e5ec8@192.168.0.1>
References: <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <m3sn1p7yq7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20020808214249.025e5ec8@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020809190909.C3949@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> As to what they grow to get that yield, there are things that will
>do it,

Yes, just about anything will do it.  You don't need to resort to
algae.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 03:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  9 02:12:03 2002
Subject: Growing Food (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization)
In-Reply-To: <20020809014903.25005.59602.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17d5nW-0004bi-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>) wrote:

> Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:
> > 
> > That's broken.  An average hectare per person assigned to food
> > production is ample even with current technology and without trying
> > hard.  Tech level 15 should be able to do *much* better.
> 
> You can feed a man on 2 1/2 acres?  What would you be planting?

Lots of stuff.  Soybeans, rice, and various greens and root veggies 
should work at that size.  IIRC, that's also enough room to do for   
to do high density carp ponds where the fish are feed agricultural 
waste.  There are lots of high density farming options, and I believe 
the minimums are actually more like 1.5-2 acres person.  OTOH, 
you can't grow beef or pretty much any meat other than carp at 
that density.  

Also, if you are willing to do hydroponics you can do multiple levels 
hydroponic trays.  With 1.5 meters between vertically stacked 
trays, you could grow 2.5 acres of food in a 1.5 acre warehouse 
that was 3 meters tall and still have space to harvest everything.    

Finally, I'm guessing vat meat will be no more than TL 11 and that's 
likely not going to take much space at all.  

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 03:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 02:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Stripmime
In-Reply-To: <B97873B1.69033%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B97873B1.69033%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020809191300.D3949@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> Someone on the TML kindly modified Stripmime to allow messages without a
> content type to get posted on the list (A fix for Leonard).

That would be me.  Locating and sending it now.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 03:31:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 02:31:13 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <001a01c23f4b$b6502d00$7400a8c0@matt>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <001a01c23f4b$b6502d00$7400a8c0@matt>
Message-ID: <20020809193011.F3949@freeman.little-possums.net>

Matthew Bond wrote:
> Basically your position is that due to the ready availability of
> cheap fusion power and the relatively small volume of interstellar
> trade, an isolated system is still essentially self-sufficient in
> most circumstances. Fair enough.

I'm saying they don't even need cheap fusion power.  Solar insolation
is good enough.


> However, the original post on this 'Failed World' topic was regarding their
> prevalence in TNE.

Actually, the original post was:
  >> How serious is the trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took place
  >> because the small island of England was not self-sufficient in either
  >> agricultural or industrial matters, but I don't think this situation
  >> will arise on many _planets_.  
  >
  > cough cough
  >        How many dinky airless rockballs with large populations do the world 
  > generation rules permit? 

Unless you mean this one:
  >         I know that they won't starve. Out of curiosity, I decided to work out what 
  > might happen though. 

In both cases, it was purely the isolation effect that we were
considering, not any active bombardment or aggressive forces.

In particular, I am not remotely interested in any effects based on
particular aspects of the TNE setting history.  If you want to know
more about my opinion on that subject, search the archives.  I will
elaborate no further.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 03:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 02:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEOIEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <20020806203758.D28821@freeman.little-possums.net> <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCEOIEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20020809193421.G3949@freeman.little-possums.net>

Terry Carlino wrote:
> In the second case they will see the flash and know something's
> coming, but it still might take days for the attacker's units to
> form up and weeks for them to actually attack.

Are you saying that the tracking systems will lose them in the
meantime?  That may be so, but surely the attacker must form their
plans based on the probability that they are still being tracked?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christian K)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Lawyers should look into this...
References: <200208090248.MJH00974@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <002801c23f8c$4e3199c0$0664a8c0@bigdarkone>

From: "John T. Kwon"
> "Glenn M. Goffin" says
> >Where did you get your silent gauss rifle?  The bullets in
> >mine always make a boom as they break the sound barrier.
> Actually, I've fired quite a few rifle rounds with a
> suppressor - the crack is noticeable - but depending on where
> you are downrange, it may be impossible to localize the
> source of the firing.  The crack is heard as the round passes
> you by - if the round misses far to the right of you, you
> will hear the sound to your right, even if the shooter is
> nowhere to the right.
> I would be that the gauss rifle would sound like this, except
> that the sound from the firing point would be non-existent.
Actually a Suppressor works by slowing bullets under soundspeed so they
don't break the soundbarrier. So considering the tremendous high speed on
wich a Gaussgun relies to get its punch it would be more or less sensless to
slow it down. And since laser are Loud as Hell if you want silent weaps use
em in HardVac or chemical supressed ones. (or MagAccel with low speeds)

my two cents ;)

Chris



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: COMET BUSTERS
Message-ID: <eg57lukcjjik00lqt50t7684vf8f6anab3@4ax.com>

I sent you email requesting a real name to attach to Comet Busters, as
Freelance Traveller policy is to have either a real name (preferred) or a
plausible pseudonym (allowed on a case-by-case basis, liberal decision
criteria) attached to an article, and Comet Busters is definitely worth
seeing in Freelance Traveller.  Do I assume from lack of reply that you are
_not_ interested in seeing it there?



Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture 
Enterprises, 1977-2000.  Use of the trademark in 
this notice and in the referenced materials is not 
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.freelancetraveller.com
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
editor@freelancetraveller.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <p04330103b9720a71cb73@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20809.011127.5m5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> It seemed a good deal.  You aren't first into battle (you aren't any 
> more likely to get killed since the unfrozen guys get killed first) 
> and you don't have to deal with boredom between battles.  Odds are 
> you sign up, get frozen, and wake up with all your pay waiting for 
> you.

Unless you missed the clause in the contract that calculates your
"term" by the time you spend *thawed*. Mind you, it's legal, because
you *do* get paid for the frozen time, though at a lower rate.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:26:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:26:31 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <011801c23adc$bdd0f780$1d17bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <20809.024856.2h6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>
>> >Mines?  How do you see mines as working in space?  Space is *really*
>>  >big and *really* empty, and there's nothing for them to hide behind.
>>
>> What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other sensor
> systems
>> you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?
>
>
> Mines, even of a CAPTOR type, don't have much area coverage. You'd need a
> lot of them to cover an area, though orbits and other choke points are a
> possibility.

There's always the "nuclear shotgun" approach. 

Basicly, a nuke that is being used to convery something (styrofoam
works!) into a plasma to push a bunch of projectiles. 

Someone posted a design on rec.arts.sf.science years back, and I copied
it here. 

The basic idea is that you get a conical (or spherical, though conical
is more efficient) of fractional c BBs. 

This can make life very hazardous throughout a *large* volume. 

Is that a commsat, a chunk of scrap from a battle, or a mine? And can
you afford the time to avoid coming within the mutiple *thousand* km
kill range of all such objects in approaching a planet?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:27:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:27:01 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <133.124edb2b.2a7daff5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20809.025428.5B0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>  >> What if they could be made stealth-like?  Are there any other 
>  >> sensor systems 
>  >> you could use to detect them efficiently besides radar?
>  >
>  >I recommend you read Bruce Alan Macintosh's Definitive Sensor Rules for 
>  >T4/FF&S2 for a complete discussion of sensors.  Passive sensors IRL 
>  >would have ranges in space significanly better than those of active 
>  >sensors such as radar.
>  >
>  >http://traveller.mu.org/house/sensor.rules.html
>
> Great site, thanks.  But using this it looks like mines are right out.  I 
> wish it were so easy to detect incoming asteroids and meteors in RL.

It *is*. Bruce based the figures on *real world* sensors.

The trick is that being above the atmosphere makes a *big* difference.

Currently we have three sorts of sensors available for that. 

1. large area sensors under an atmosphere.
2. Small area wide-field sensors in satellites. 
3. larger area narrow field sensors in a couple of satellites

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:27:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:27:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Firearms in Vacumn
In-Reply-To: <3D4BD8C7.43D0D0AA@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20809.030247.9k4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> 
>>
>> >>
>> >> Do you still have any copies of The Model Rocketeer? Mine got lost a
>> >> long time ago :-(
>> >
>> > I think so, I'll have a look next time I'm cleaning that part of the 
> garage.
>> > Anything in particular
>> > or do you want that article on underwater launches?
>> 
>> Well, I'd like to have a set of the silly things, or at least a decent
>> scan of them.
>> 
>
> Leonard, I don't mind scanning a few articles, but we're talking YEARS of 
> issues(14 IIRC). I don't
> have the time to scan them all, nor the inclination to give them up. I will 
> however look for that
> article.

Don't bother. That one I remember, and it doesn't have that much of
interest to me. 

It's all the stuff I *don't* recall that I miss. Some nice technical
articles, some songs, all sorts of other stuff that I probably don't
recall right now.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:27:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:27:54 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <E17bJb8-0007Wi-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20809.031047.1I2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>
>> In mail you write:
>> 
>>> Time-Travel is a huge no-no. Do I have something against it? Yes and
>>> no. It's entertaining and fascinating to speculate on, but it would
>>> seriously unbalance a campaign. I also like the idea that
>>> consequences of one's actions are irreversable...Time Travel far too
>>> often gives one an out to correct mistakes.
>> 
>> Well, the theoretical work that physicists have done on the
>> possibility of time travel in the real world says that two things will
>> be true if it's possible:
>> 
>> 1. You can't travel back before the instant the machione is first
>>    activated.
>> 
>> 2. You can't alter the past. You'd have free will to the exact extent
>>    that you *don't* know what happened. 
>
> Actually, from what I've read, those are only true *if* causality is 
> always preserved.  If it is possible to utterly toss causality out the 
> window, then time travel can involve whatever you want.  It's 
> interesting to me that preservation of causality seems something 
> almost all phyicists assume to be true w/o having any absolute 
> necessity that the world actually operates this way.  We haven't 
> seen any obvious causality violations, but until last century we also 
> never saw any obvious relativistic effects.  Personally, I think the 
> universe would be a considerably more interesting (in all possible 
> meanings of this word) place is causality is not strictly preserved.

Actuallity, there are two kinds of causality. If local causality is
preserved, then time travel isn't possible at all.

If *local* causality isn't preserved, but global causality is, then you
get the situation I described.

If global causality isn't preserved, then you can have effects without
causes and a number of other things. And they basicly make hash of the
very *idea* of there being natural laws. Which is why scientists are so
reluctant to accept causality violations. 

Causality is *very* basic. 

ps. What I described *also* requires that relativity hold. 

You can have any two out of the following three:

local causality
relativity
FTL

If relativity holds, FTL *is* time travel.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Lawyers should look into this...
Message-ID: <200208091057.MJX01100@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Christian K" says
>Actually a Suppressor works by slowing bullets under 
>soundspeed so they don't break the soundbarrier.

Only in certain weapons.  In rifles, they only reduce the 
apparent sound of the weapon itself (reducing or altering the 
gas expansion sound impulse).  The bullet itself is not 
intended to be reduced in velocity.

The quietest weapons are designed with a subsonic round 
(ideally, a bullet that is just below the speed of sound).  
But they have the shortest range.

>And since laser are Loud as Hell

I've heard an Avco industrial laser in operation - the only 
sound was the power conditioning - I didn't hear any sound 
from the beam.

________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:59:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:59:28 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <20809.031047.1I2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <E17bJb8-0007Wi-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3D54490D.22627.620186C@localhost>

On 9 Aug 2002, at 3:10, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> You can have any two out of the following three:

> local causality
> relativity
> FTL

> If relativity holds, FTL *is* time travel.

Try this for an interesting take on things

http://www.discover.com/june_02/featuniverse.html


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 04:59:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 03:59:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: COMET BUSTERS
Message-ID: <200208091058.MJX01143@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Jeff Zeitlin <editor@freelancetraveller.com>  
>I sent you email requesting a real name to attach to Comet 
>Busters...


I think this is for someone else...
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 05:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 04:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
Message-ID: <200208091101.MJX01284@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson
>Causality is *very* basic. 


Wheeler has shown that there is no proof that causality is a 
requirement of this universe as a basic law.  It makes a nice 
thought, but by no means is it a requirement.

The two-slit experiment, played out over interstellar 
distances, or even across a tabletop in a lab, was shown in 
1987 to indicate that causality is violated on a regular 
basis.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 05:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 04:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Stripmime
In-Reply-To: <B97873B1.69033%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20809.034100.0C2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Someone on the TML kindly modified Stripmime to allow messages without a
> content type to get posted on the list (A fix for Leonard).  If that person
> still has a copy, could they please contact me.  I've lost the original that
> you sent me.

If it runs on Intel family CPUs under DOS, Windoze, or OS/2, I'd be
interested in a copy..

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 05:34:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 04:34:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Professor Barker??
In-Reply-To: <000601c23c02$0d81b280$08984c51@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <20809.042448.8M6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>>Depart now and you forever separate
>>>yourselves from the vital gaming legacies of James Dunnigan,
>>>Steve Jackson, Gary Gygax, Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank
>>>Chadwick, Andrew Keith, William Keith, John Harshman,
>>>Professor Barker, and Richard Tucholka.
>>
>>Professor Barker {?} info please.
>>
>>Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches
>
> Empire of the Petal Throne!
>
> It was a early D&D derivative by the above mentioned prof.
>
> It had a very oriental feel with him having a background in linguistics (and
> it counted as sci-fi due to the strange background history... Humans and
> other aliens try to terraform a planet, much to the anoyance of it
> inhabitants, entire solar system disappears into a void, leaving everybody
> up the creak, a few thousand years regression (theres no iron on planet!)
> and alternate cultural development  later and enter the PCs.
>
> It spawn numerous expansions, and two  novels bu M.A.R. Barker himself.
>
> Major prob with this world? pronouncing the words! He did a Tolkien and
> created his own languages and scripts.

There are fonts available for the main alphabet (Ev-something), and
there's even unicode space reserved for it.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 05:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Aug  9 04:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <200208091101.MJX01284@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D5452F6.32566.646D18B@localhost>

On 9 Aug 2002, at 7:01, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Leonard Erickson
> >Causality is *very* basic. 

> Wheeler has shown that there is no proof that causality is a 
> requirement of this universe as a basic law.  It makes a nice 
> thought, but by no means is it a requirement.

Not quite. If I understand Wheeler correctly, causality is not violated as 
such (cause still precedes effect). Its just cause is not determined until the 
effect is observed.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 05:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Christian K)
Date: Fri Aug  9 04:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lawyers should look into this...
References: <200208091057.MJX01100@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <006601c23f9b$9abfb150$0664a8c0@bigdarkone>

From: "John T. Kwon"
> Only in certain weapons.  In rifles, they only reduce the
> apparent sound of the weapon itself (reducing or altering the
> gas expansion sound impulse).  The bullet itself is not
> intended to be reduced in velocity.
You're absolutely right there my mistake i didn't make clear that it only
applys to certain weapons.


<snip>
> >And since laser are Loud as Hell
>
> I've heard an Avco industrial laser in operation - the only
> sound was the power conditioning - I didn't hear any sound
> from the beam.
Well ok sofar as my Physiks prof told me and  i did some research in it. A
High powered laser.. (not the ones used for cutting they are actually fairly
low powered in comparison) well the lasers we have in GT that is fir a
milisecond impulse off realy high power. According to what i read so far a
short recently high and hot powered lasershot would heat the air it passes
threw and in its wake even could create a vacum. The air popping back would
make a sound more like a plopp and by far nothing a bullet sounds like but
it wouldn't been the SF Film screech and it wouldn't been silent. Just some
kind off sound recently high powered laser would make more/louder sounds due
to more superheated ionized or whatever that word in english is Air.

Thats what i read so far... i could be completele wrong here since i'm not a
Physiks prof or teacher or something like that but for me it sounded
sensefull.

Chris



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 06:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Aug  9 05:18:02 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <001a01c23f4b$b6502d00$7400a8c0@matt> <20020809193011.F3949@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt>

Timothy Little wrote:
> Matthew Bond wrote:
>> However, the original post on this 'Failed World' topic was
>> regarding their prevalence in TNE.
>
> Actually, the original post was:
>   >> How serious is the trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took
> place   >> because the small island of England was not self-
> sufficient in either   >> agricultural or industrial matters, but I
> don't think this situation   >> will arise on many _planets_.
>   >
>   > cough cough
>   >        How many dinky airless rockballs with large populations do
> the world   > generation rules permit?
>
> Unless you mean this one:
>   >         I know that they won't starve. Out of curiosity, I
> decided to work out what   > might happen though.
>
> In both cases, it was purely the isolation effect that we were
> considering, not any active bombardment or aggressive forces.
>
> In particular, I am not remotely interested in any effects based on
> particular aspects of the TNE setting history.  If you want to know
> more about my opinion on that subject, search the archives.  I will
> elaborate no further.

Actually I was referring to the immediately prior post in the tread, by
Flykiller@aol.com...

[Quote]
>> How
 >> serious is the trade issue?  The Battle of the Atlantic took place
because
 >> the small island of England was not self-sufficient in either
agricultural
 >> or industrial matters, but I don't think this situation will arise on
many
 >> _planets_.  If trade is truly a major issue and lifeline then a massed
herd
 >> of raiders will be crippling regardless of any other fleet elements
 >> employed.  But I think most planets with populations sufficient to have
 >> significant trade connections will have huge internal capacites to
produce
 >> what they need anyway, and huge reserves of whatever they have to import
 >> (consider our Strategic Oil Reserve).
 >
 >If planets are so self sufficient, then why does TNE describe planets
failing
 >because they were cut off from interstellar trade?

Don't know.  Doesn't make much sense to me.  I can see it happening here and
there of course, but not en masse.  TNE may state it, but that's not
necessarily a reason to just swallow it.
_______________________________________________

[/Quote]

This post does mention TNE.

Your arguement was that irrespective of trade all planets can (perhaps even
'must') be self sufficient. That may well be the case under normal
circumstances. In the TNE setting things were not 'normal' at the time of
the failure of these worlds.

Thats all I'm saying... given sufficient stress to the system (irrespective
of which particular Traveller setting you use), you can Fail any planet that
isn't capable of supporting life without TL9+ intervention.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 06:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Aug  9 05:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020809190909.C3949@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020808214249.025e5ec8@192.168.0.1>
 <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
 <02080313391901.00601@linux>
 <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <02080817101100.00601@linux>
 <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <m3sn1p7yq7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020808214249.025e5ec8@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020809081548.00ce0780@192.168.0.1>

At 07:09 PM 8/9/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
> > As to what they grow to get that yield, there are things that will
> >do it,
>Yes, just about anything will do it.  You don't need to resort to
>algae.

The algae came to mind quickly because it's such a complete food source, 
and easy to grow in non-ag situations.

It wasn't worth my time to dig out more complete data on the subject.
Thanks for providing it.

To sum up, the higher the tech level, the easier it will be on rockballs to 
survive independently.
Higher tech level rockballs (one that sustain their own TL C+ industry) 
will have no problems supporting large populations food wise.
Lower tech level rockballs can do it, it will take more effort, space, etc.
Easier to do if you just worry about feeding them, less so, but doable, if 
you want a diverse diet.

If you start kicking the support functions of their civilization (for what 
ever reason), they will have problems of varying degrees.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 06:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 05:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT:  December ARPC shoot
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020807104836.009f6c50@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20809.052524.8r5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 04:58 PM 8/6/02 -0700, you wrote:
>>Good to hear!  I'm desperately going to try to make it up again finally, 
>>as the financial situation has improved a little.  Providing of course 
>>that I can get a new roomate and don't have to keep paying twice the rent 
>>like I am now :(  Also, I'm going to invite Erin again, and maybe I can 
>>get my "girlfriend" to go too ;)
>
> I too, shall try to make it up.  I'll be at OryCon the week before that (as 
> Gaming GOH, if you can believe that, so unless you can give me rifde, no 
> way I can afford to fly twice in that length of time.

No, Orycon is *two* weeks before the shoot 11/22-11/24. Says so on the
form I still have to mail in!

> -- 
>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
>
> "I'm just trying to evict them. Frogs never pay."
>                              - Rose Platt
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 06:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew W. Helton)
Date: Fri Aug  9 05:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Lawyers should look into this...
In-Reply-To: <002801c23f8c$4e3199c0$0664a8c0@bigdarkone>
Message-ID: <000001c23fa4$024d9320$fd00a8c0@sulaco>

Christian,

		Muzzle suppressors do nothing to slow the projectile:
they are merely a device to cool and slow the propellant the gasses to
reduce the report.

	There are types of integral suppressors (Sten MKIIs, Sterling
MKV/L34A1, MP5SD5) which do bleed some of the high pressure gasses from
the barrel itself into the suppressor while the projectile is still in
the bore. These suppressors do not require special subsonic ammunition
in order for truly silenced shooting.

				Best,

					Matthew W. Helton


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 07:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  9 06:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Do I have to Yahoo! ?
Message-ID: <155.122f2469.2a851759@aol.com>

>Could someone tell me if it is necessary to follow these instructions to
>subscribe to The JTAS
>
>John Scarlett

John,

All you have to do is go to <http://jtas.sjgames.com/> 

and click on "Subscribe" then follow the directions.

You can look at a sample issue without subscribing if you like. 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 07:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 06:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
Message-ID: <200208091312.MKB02981@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance" says
>Not quite. If I understand Wheeler correctly, causality is 
>not violated as such (cause still precedes effect). Its just 
>cause is not determined until the effect is observed.

the problem is that the nature of the observation will force 
a photon to the left or the right - an observation that is 
taken perhaps a billion years after the photon departed. 
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 08:22:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Aug  9 07:22:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
Message-ID: <F24qs1wP7vvqgqGTwgT0000593c@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     The current Frontier Wars thread has given me an excuse to post a 
little something.  Besides, it sure beats having Finster carom rocks off my 
old grey pate (You know, for a three-year-old, that little SOB sure has a 
great arm.  He nailed me with a rock at a good 25 feet yesterday.  If he 
ever gets his hands on any firearms, we'll have to change his name to 
Ditzie.)
     To my addled mind, Zho strategy over the last 6 centuries has been 
pretty simple; deflect Imperial expansion away from the Consulate and 
stabilize the border.  After looking at the maps, even before the Zhos got 
their "make-over" from mind-rapers to well adjusted psionicists in Late CT, 
this strategy was pretty self evident.
     Oddly enough, this happened to be the Imperial strategy against the 
Alsan!
     The Consulate has been active, albeit thin on the ground, in the 
Marches for quite a long time, certainly from only a few centuries after the 
Darrians had their little "accident". (Did Tanis' odd flares, when viewed 
from a great distance, lure Zho exploration towards the Marches?)
     The Consulate's goals are two-fold; first evict the Imperium from the 
Foreven and Ziafrfplians Sectors and a portion of the Marches, then create a 
Dark Nebula-style buffer zone of small polities to act as a shield.  The 
first goal has been accompished.  The second has been only partially 
completed.
     Inserting the five Frontier Wars into this overall strategic framework 
becomes an easy task:

     First Frontier War - Eviction of Imperial colonies and elimination of 
Imperial client state relationships within Consulate territory.  A Zho 
success.
     Second Frontier War - Continued evictions.  Buffer zone begins to form. 
  A Zho success.
     Third Frontier War - Majority of the buffer zone created.  A Zho 
success.
     Fourth Frontier War - Launched prematurely by local authorities after a 
period increased tensions.  A draw.
     Fifth Frontier War -  An attempt to complete the buffer zone by 
detaching the Jewell subsector and other small slices of Imperial territory. 
  This would continue the buffer zone coreward until it contacted Vargr 
space.

     The Zho's three main offensives fit this idea neatly.  First, they "pin 
down" the Jewels.  Second, a sickle stroke through the Efate region to cut 
the Jewels off.  Third, a deep strike at Rhylanor to gain the war's supreme 
bargaining chip.
     If all had gone well, the Jewels would be slowly ground down by a 
series of planetary seiges, cutoff from the rest of the Imperium by Zho 
forces in the Efate region, and eventually abandoned by the Imperium at the 
negotiation table in return for the Zhodani evacuation of Rhylanor.
     Of course, no plan survives contact with the enemy, but the Consulate's 
hubris can be forgiven.  After all, they had won every Frontier War prior to 
the Fifth.  To paraphrase Moltke, the Consulate planned well, but didn't 
quite plan enough.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 08:24:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Aug  9 07:24:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra, Zhakirov and Antiama
References: <20020730221303.16806.79173.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001701c23fb1$0020b520$5d5d8690@computer>

Ah! I think I've worked out the real reason why I don't think that
Arbellatra was responsible for the marriage of Zhakirov and Antiama.

My objection is not so much the logical problems, which, while they exist,
can be overcome, but actually the dramatic ones.

It's kind of like having Macbeth showing up in Hamlet, and making the plot
happen. Essentially, by giving such an active role to Arbellatra, the story
of Zhakirov and Antiama is weakened.

The backstories of the OTU are, in fact, stories, and dramatic
considerations can and should be taken into account in working out "what
really happened". Where two possible courses are logically possible, the one
that makes the better story should be preferred, IMHO.

YMMV, of course.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 08:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 07:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] cause and effect
Message-ID: <200208091428.MKE00298@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 09:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  9 08:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Lawyers should look into this...
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEELPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
>"Glenn M. Goffin" says
>>Where did you get your silent gauss rifle?  The bullets in
>>mine always make a boom as they break the sound barrier.

[excellent discussion deleted]

>I would be that the gauss rifle would sound like this, except
>that the sound from the firing point would be non-existent.

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>Most of the sound associated with weapons fire is the sound of the powder
>going off.  The crack of the bullet is negligible.  For example, a silenced
>.22LR is nearly silent in operation.
>
>A 4mm gauss round would make a high pitched *crack* audible only to those
>near the flight path.

That works for me.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 09:38:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  9 08:38:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra, Zhakirov and Antiama
In-Reply-To: <001701c23fb1$0020b520$5d5d8690@computer>
References: <20020730221303.16806.79173.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020809080818.009f13d0@mindspring.com>

At 12:27 AM 8/10/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Ah! I think I've worked out the real reason why I don't think that
>Arbellatra was responsible for the marriage of Zhakirov and Antiama.
>
>My objection is not so much the logical problems, which, while they exist,
>can be overcome, but actually the dramatic ones.
>
>It's kind of like having Macbeth showing up in Hamlet, and making the plot
>happen. Essentially, by giving such an active role to Arbellatra, the story
>of Zhakirov and Antiama is weakened.
>
>The backstories of the OTU are, in fact, stories, and dramatic
>considerations can and should be taken into account in working out "what
>really happened". Where two possible courses are logically possible, the one
>that makes the better story should be preferred, IMHO.

I was a bit unclear.  I meant to show that Arbellatra set the stage by 
weakening the Solomani grip on power at the court that had led to the Civil 
War in the first place.  I imagine many nobles were stripped of their 
titles, and those titles passed to others.  She also, IMTU, shook up the 
bureaucracy and made it more effective by elevating Vilani business people 
to positions of authority, complete with the appropriate titles.

Plot hook.  Admiral Arbellatra, Regent of the Imperium, has elevated a 
Vilani sector accountant to Minister of Finance, replacing a corrupt noble 
who held the position previously.  The Duke understands that if his 
dealings are examined, he'll spend the rest of his life on a TL2 exile 
world.  His only hope is to prevent the new Minister from reaching 
Capitial.  The PCs are the Marines and starmen sent to escort the new 
Minister and his family to the Regent.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 09:38:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  9 08:38:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
In-Reply-To: <F24qs1wP7vvqgqGTwgT0000593c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020809081646.009f77c0@mindspring.com>

At 02:21 PM 8/9/02 +0000, you wrote:

My dear Whipsnade..

>     The current Frontier Wars thread has given me an excuse to post a 
> little something.  Besides, it sure beats having Finster carom rocks off 
> my old grey pate (You know, for a three-year-old, that little SOB sure 
> has a great arm.  He nailed me with a rock at a good 25 feet 
> yesterday.  If he ever gets his hands on any firearms, we'll have to 
> change his name to Ditzie.)

I suggest constant suggestions that the young hellion requires an immediate 
bath.  The word bath sets of such a primal flight response in small 
children that I'm covinced that at the dawn of mankind we were hunted by 
some horror whose call was "bath!  baatthh!"  Young Finster  shall spend 
the remainder of the occupation hiding behind the couch, surviving on dust 
bunnies and old hard candies.

>     To my addled mind, Zho strategy over the last 6 centuries has been 
> pretty simple; deflect Imperial expansion away from the Consulate and 
> stabilize the border.  After looking at the maps, even before the Zhos 
> got their "make-over" from mind-rapers to well adjusted psionicists in 
> Late CT, this strategy was pretty self evident.
>     Oddly enough, this happened to be the Imperial strategy against the 
> Alsan!

Good eye!  This is very true of the later ABWs.

>     The Consulate has been active, albeit thin on the ground, in the 
> Marches for quite a long time, certainly from only a few centuries after 
> the Darrians had their little "accident". (Did Tanis' odd flares, when 
> viewed from a great distance, lure Zho exploration towards the Marches?)
>     The Consulate's goals are two-fold; first evict the Imperium from the 
> Foreven and Ziafrfplians Sectors and a portion of the Marches, then 
> create a Dark Nebula-style buffer zone of small polities to act as a 
> shield.  The first goal has been accompished.  The second has been only 
> partially completed.

But can be considered a success.  There have been no Imperial attempts to 
establish colonies in Zhodani space for 700 years.

>     Fifth Frontier War -  An attempt to complete the buffer zone by 
> detaching the Jewell subsector and other small slices of Imperial 
> territory.  This would continue the buffer zone coreward until it 
> contacted Vargr space.
>
>     The Zho's three main offensives fit this idea neatly.  First, they 
> "pin down" the Jewels.  Second, a sickle stroke through the Efate region 
> to cut the Jewels off.  Third, a deep strike at Rhylanor to gain the 
> war's supreme bargaining chip.
>     If all had gone well, the Jewels would be slowly ground down by a 
> series of planetary seiges, cutoff from the rest of the Imperium by Zho 
> forces in the Efate region, and eventually abandoned by the Imperium at 
> the negotiation table in return for the Zhodani evacuation of Rhylanor.
>     Of course, no plan survives contact with the enemy, but the 
> Consulate's hubris can be forgiven.  After all, they had won every 
> Frontier War prior to the Fifth.  To paraphrase Moltke, the Consulate 
> planned well, but didn't quite plan enough.

The also ran into a wild card: Norris.  You can't predict an unexpected 
enemy commander that is a bloody genius and has figured out your plan.  I 
always wondered if Norris' branch of Naval Intelligence hadn't actually 
learned bits and pieces of the Zhodani plan.

The Zho's over-reached themselves, in my opinion.  They didn't properly 
understand the strength of the Imperium's "defense in depth" concept, nor 
the tenacity of local forces.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 09:39:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  9 08:39:04 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Lawyers should look into this...
In-Reply-To: <200208090248.MJH00974@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020809082853.009ea2a0@mindspring.com>

At 10:48 PM 8/8/02 -0400, you wrote:
>"Glenn M. Goffin" says
> >Where did you get your silent gauss rifle?  The bullets in
> >mine always make a boom as they break the sound barrier.
>
>Actually, I've fired quite a few rifle rounds with a
>suppressor - the crack is noticeable - but depending on where
>you are downrange, it may be impossible to localize the
>source of the firing.  The crack is heard as the round passes
>you by - if the round misses far to the right of you, you
>will hear the sound to your right, even if the shooter is
>nowhere to the right.

The sound made by a round passing close by is sort of a "thwip"  You only 
hear it when it is close to you, so when crawling through razor-wire at Ft. 
Benning, the 7.62mm rounds being fired above your head sound *damn* 
close.  The loudest sound by far is the weapon itself.

>I would be that the gauss rifle would sound like this, except
>that the sound from the firing point would be non-existent.

*thwip*thwip*thwip*thwip*thwip*thwip*thwip*


-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Animals who are not penguins can only wish they were.
                          -Chicago reader, 10/15/82



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 09:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  9 08:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Arbellatra
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMELPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
>
>As a matter of fact, I am unconvinced that the modern
>`generalist-to-18' model is long for this world.  I think that as
[deletion]
> It's rapidly becoming apparent that four years of college are
>not enough; master's or doctoral work is necessary to truly _grok_ a
>subject (and I write this as one without a master's or a doctorate).
>
>The only workable solution, given that children of an early age are
>not properly testable, is a system of like-father-like-son.  Which,
>fortunately enough, ties into mankind's proclivities enough that it'll
>probably work out nicely enough.

Like-father-like-son destroyed the Roman empire, but that doesn't mean we
won't see it again.  I think that the vast majority of people will always be
generalists, because most of human life requires a general knowledge of how
to do things.  There may very well be some elites that develop a
generational focus on extremely complex subjects, but not everyone by a long
shot.

That's probably what the seneschal class does, and we've never yet had a
character generation system for the seneschal -- probably because there are
no retired seneschals to go adventuring.  They are born into the class,
study all their lives to synthesize, abstract, and communicate vast
quantities of information, and do exactly that until they contract
Alzheimer's and are debriefed in nursing homes.

--Glenn

"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher
a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts,
build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders,
cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure,
program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently and die gallantly.
Specialization is for insects."

-- Robert A. Heinlein


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 09:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  9 08:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEEMACEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>
>     The current Frontier Wars thread has given me an excuse to post a
>little something.  Besides, it sure beats having Finster carom rocks off my

[excellent analysis deleted]
>
  >  Fifth Frontier War -  An attempt to complete the buffer zone by
>detaching the Jewell subsector and other small slices of Imperial
territory.
>  This would continue the buffer zone coreward until it contacted Vargr
>space.
>
>     The Zho's three main offensives fit this idea neatly.  First, they
"pin
>down" the Jewels.  Second, a sickle stroke through the Efate region to cut
>the Jewels off.  Third, a deep strike at Rhylanor to gain the war's supreme
>bargaining chip.
>     If all had gone well, the Jewels would be slowly ground down by a
>series of planetary seiges, cutoff from the rest of the Imperium by Zho
>forces in the Efate region, and eventually abandoned by the Imperium at the
>negotiation table in return for the Zhodani evacuation of Rhylanor.

Dear Mr. Whipsnade:

I heartily endorse your basic analysis, which must be further evidence for
the common belief that great minds think alike -- er, I mean, that Traveller
players need to get a life -- no wait a bit...

Anyway, if the boardgame of Fifth Frontier War is a good simulation, it is
almost impossible for the Imperial player to avoid losing the Jewells in a
few turns.  The Zhodani player has enough resources to overwhelm the Jewells
and still take the 300 points needed to achieve an automatic victory (not
that it's easy, but it's doable).

So the Jewells would not have to be ground down by planetary sieges.  Jewell
itself is always a battle, but the Mongo National Guard will flee in terror
after some bombing, and Esalin, Emerald, and Ruby have no defense forces to
speak of (those TL 8 motorized infantry on Esalin are more terrified that
the MNG, but can't flee as fast).  Lysen and Grant likewise need only to be
occupied.

One Zhodani fleet should go directly to Jewell for a major space and ground
fight.  Two smaller fleets should take the rest of the cluster (one takes
Emerald and Ruby, the other Mongo and Esalin), then move on to Grant and
Lysen, then head for Regina (which is pretty easy to take).  Phase one is
complete.  Begin processing the captives!

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 10:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 09:28:03 2002
Subject: Growing Food (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization)
In-Reply-To: <E17d5nW-0004bi-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028910449.6838.ajackson@ping>

sneadj@mindspring.com writes:
 
> Lots of stuff.  Soybeans, rice, and various greens and root veggies 
> should work at that size.

Actually, 2.5 acres per person (250 people per square mile) is only a little
over the upper limit of medieval agriculture, assuming 100% arable land (which
is, obviously, a bit unrealistic).  As such, it's really not a challenge for
any TL 5+ world.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 11:09:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug  9 10:09:06 2002
Subject: [TML] test, ignore
Message-ID: <B9794537.690D6%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

This is a test of mime stripping
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 11:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug  9 10:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] test 2, ignore
Message-ID: <B9794A6F.690DF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Another test of MIME stripping
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 11:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug  9 10:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] test3, ignore
Message-ID: <B9794AF5.690E3%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Final MIME test
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 11:50:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Aug  9 10:50:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Macene Landgrab
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHIEMIILAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Little things cast big ripples; in BTC map, Macene is listed as
Depot, and in the description it is listed as the site of the
Spinward Branch of the Fleet Tactics College.  I read this and
the little guy with the pitchfork and the little guy with the
halo who sit on my shoulder started jumping up and down chortling
maniacally.

If someone wants to grab these and post 'em, go ahead


Macene

Macene is still under development and will be for decades but
stands to become Depot Spinward Marches. It is built and sited to
command the flank of any would be Zhodane, Sword Worlds, or Vagyr
incursion into Imperial space; provide, along with Rhylanor, a middle
tier main base between the frontline worlds of Regina and Lanth
and the rear hugging worlds of Aramis and Mara; and force attention
and dilution of effort on itself by any would be attackers.

Currently Macene is home to 9400 Navy personnel and their dependants, not
ship's crews to assigned ships, and the 10041 Engineering Wing who as
members of assigned military combat units are not counted in the population
totals.  By the end of the Holiday year as facilities go on line this
number will grow to 60,000 personnel and their dependants.  In addition, a
Marine Division and various assigned ships will swell this number.

Current plans will be to form Kokirrak Class dreadnaughts, One Demi
Batron from Rhylanor and one from Mora  will be joined to serve
as the core of the assigned fleet.

Planetoid monitors and Brilliant Pebble monitors will form the heart of
the fleet level defenses of the base, freeing mobile elements to counter
attack against enemy fleets
Current facilities

Amber Nine

Amber Nine is the current designation of the current center of operations
for the Navy at Macene.  It houses the SMFTC, the administrative command
for the entire system, housing and quarters for staff, port facilities for
the systems defense fleet.  It, like Frog Two is located within the 100 D
limit of Macene's star. It is scheduled to be officially named Arabella
Base Naval complex during the Holiday year celebrations.

Frog Two

Located opposite from Amber Nine, Frog Two is the headquarters for the
Op force and serves as a listening post and base against any attacks
from the opposite side.

Mnor Quad, Maor Delt

Maor quad is located above the North pole of the star and delt is above the
South pole, they serve as relayy stations

Fargo Station

Fargo Station is the original settlement of Macene,  Currently it is HQ
for the 10041 Fleet Engineering wing which is responsible for all
construction
in system.  Fargo station is also the current location for Civilian
refueling
and other amenities.

Facilities nearing completion

These are scheduled to go on line by the end of the holiday year

Amber Six: scheduled to be fitted as a Fleet command HQ.  A Marine division
will also be headquartered here and will serve as ground defense
for the entire complex

Amber One:  will being equipped for family residences and Visiting officer
quarters.

Amber Nine will have it's berthing capacity upgraded to 200,000 dton
ships and will be able to perform routine maintenance on ships

Maor Delt will be upgraded to a Squadron base.

Maor Delt will be upgrade to a fleet level communication nexus and will
support
a communications squadron.

Fargo Station will be upgraded to refit, repair, and replace Jump drive
components.

Fargo Station will assume command of deep meson emplacements guarding
Gas Giant "Pell below".

Timohee RedJack Station:  Named after Olav-Plankwell's Flag Captain, this
is planned to take over as the entry point for all non official traffic.
It will offer fuel at standard prices, and will have a commercial mall
for the families and residents of Macene command.

Diltin One: Dilitin commanded Arabella's Supply efforts, both during the war
and on her march on the Core.  The Diltin is designed to keep Depot supplied
and support it offensive actions.  It will originally be a warehousing
operation, but over time will grew to include greenhouses, carniculture, and
live food production, along with recycling and manufacturing plants.

Frog Seven:  Is scheduled to augment the facilities of Frog Two and serve as
the
site for the Spinward arm of the fleet gunnery school.  Meson gunnery is the
first school scheduled for completion

Mid term activation (three to ten years)

Dlitin Three:  A planned Headquarters and warehouse facility for Sector
fleet
maintainance.

Amber Seven:  first class to start Spinward Marches Depot Academy


________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 12:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri Aug  9 11:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : OK, Now What?
In-Reply-To: <000801c23de9$3cfa8300$c69c67cb@robert>
References: <000801c23de9$3cfa8300$c69c67cb@robert>
Message-ID: <p04330103b979b556d090@[143.232.119.186]>

At 6:05 PM +1000 8/7/02, Robert O'Connor wrote:
>John Kwon wrote:-
>>  First I keep reading that plasma weapons are not possible -
>>  the bolt would dissipate a short distance from the barrel. 
><snip>
>
>One potential problem was with dissipation, the other with
>the ridiculous energies required (there's a good line in 'Guns, Guns,
>Guns'
>comparing PGMP-like weapons to Bangalore torpedoes...)

My understanding of the argument is that plasma guns are what 
thermodynamics call heat engines.  Thermo requires (even at maximum 
possible efficiency) that energies comparble to the shot fired get 
released by the gun.  So how do you shoot w/out doing as much damage 
to the gun (or your hand).
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 12:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 11:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D53003A.1070102@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020809190742.B3949@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3D540E41.1040509@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Timothy Little wrote:
> Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
>>You can't compare these, and which model is correct depends on which
>>rule set you use.
> 
> 
> Isn't this a bit deplorable, considering that they're all meant to be
> describing the same universe?

Actually, they're not.

Each set of rules is indeed a different universe.

Hard Times describes the MT Late Rebellion universe. GT:FT describes the 
steady state 'Strephon walks out of the shower' universe. WBH describes 
an early rebellion/CT universe.

The fact that they all share remarkable similarities in background story 
is mere coincidence ;-)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 12:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Fri Aug  9 11:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020809081646.009f77c0@mindspring.com>
References: <F24qs1wP7vvqgqGTwgT0000593c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020809135406.00a8fe50@minn.net>

At 08:27 AM 8/9/2002 -0700, The Lord of the Penguins wrote:

>The also ran into a wild card: Norris.  You can't predict an unexpected 
>enemy commander that is a bloody genius and has figured out your plan.  I 
>always wondered if Norris' branch of Naval Intelligence hadn't actually 
>learned bits and pieces of the Zhodani plan.
>
>The Zho's over-reached themselves, in my opinion.  They didn't properly 
>understand the strength of the Imperium's "defense in depth" concept, nor 
>the tenacity of local forces.

The answer in my view is simple. 

Spy on the allies. I'm using the NAVINT operations in the Vargr Extents as
part of the background of my serial fiction project. (I'm up to the end of
page two in part five of FiHP.)


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 13:36:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Aug  9 12:36:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Lawyers should look into this...
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22D96@USCHM203>

>Douglas Berry wrote:

>The sound made by a round passing close by is sort of a "thwip"  You only 
>hear it when it is close to you, so when crawling through razor-wire at Ft.

>Benning, the 7.62mm rounds being fired above your head sound *damn* 
>close.  The loudest sound by far is the weapon itself.

I remember working the targets at Parris Island. There was very little sound
to the .223 M16 rounds passing overhead---the snap of the rounds passing
through the target was louder. You could tell a complete miss, though.
I agree that the sound would probably only be audible to someone close to
the round's path, and be difficult to tell where it came from.

I read somewhere that snipers like to have a pole, large tree, or other
object very close to their line of site. The bullet passing by makes it
sound as if the shot has been fired from the direction of the object...
I'm sure someone else can explain the why and how of this better.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 13:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  9 12:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMELPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020809124501.009f0490@mindspring.com>

At 08:41 AM 8/9/02 -0700, you wrote:
>That's probably what the seneschal class does, and we've never yet had a
>character generation system for the seneschal -- probably because there are
>no retired seneschals to go adventuring.  They are born into the class,
>study all their lives to synthesize, abstract, and communicate vast
>quantities of information, and do exactly that until they contract
>Alzheimer's and are debriefed in nursing homes.

It would make for an interesting template.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 13:49:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug  9 12:49:32 2002
Subject: [TML] test, ignore
In-Reply-To: <B9794537.690D6%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020809124700.009f1ec0@mindspring.com>

At 10:08 AM 8/9/02 -0700, you wrote:
>This is a test of mime stripping

Isn't that when you steal Marcel Marceau's hubcaps?

I mean, how is he going to call the cops and report it?


-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is
that I am now a perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague
here is rapidly running out of limbs!"
   - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 13:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (markc@peak.org)
Date: Fri Aug  9 12:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
Message-ID: <232810-22002859195212613@M2W075.mail2web.com>

Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring=2Ecom> writes:

>Most of the sound associated with weapons fire is the sound of the powder=

>going off=2E  The crack of the bullet is negligible=2E  For example, a si=
lenced
>=2E22LR is nearly silent in operation=2E

Oh, come on, Doug=2E  You and I both know they're louder than that=2E
While you certainly don't need hearing protection around one, they
sound about like a large balloon being popped=2E  Even in an open
outdoor area, I can hear one fire over 50 yds=2E away=2E  Now, if
subsonic ammo is being used, it's a whole different story=2E

>A 4mm gauss round would make a high pitched *crack* audible only to
> those near the flight path=2E

With "near" probably meaning within 200 meters=2E  (This assumes a
calm, clear day, across level terrain and with no significant
background noise to mask the shot=2E)

    - Mark C=2E



--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 13:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Fri Aug  9 12:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] 100 ton scout ship?
In-Reply-To: <20020809030206.EC91C2793F@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020809195517.52468.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com>

I think I may have seen one of these. I saw a triangle
of lights one night,flying slowly across the sky.
However, the ship I saw appeared to be at a high
altitude. Not flying low like in the article.I
couldn't hear any engine noise so I thought it must be
very high up. If it was that high up, it had to be
enormous. Football feild would be a "conservative"
estimate. Even if it was flying low it would still be
huge. 

--- Eris Reddoch <erisred@telocity.com> wrote:
> On 08/08/02 at 03:08 PM,  Bruce Johnson
> <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
> said:
> 
> >Thing wrote:
> 
> > > 
>
>http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/black_triangle_020805.htm


=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 14:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Fri Aug  9 13:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Military Psychology
In-Reply-To: <20809.011127.5m5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020809200101.53142.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com>

I have one reservation, I know that if I were awakened
from low berth sleep, most likely, it will be because
a substantial portion of the crew got killed, in which
case, the ship probably isn't in such great fighting
shape either. My first thought upon awakening would be
"Oh $#!+"

--- Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> wrote:
> In mail you write:
> 
> > It seemed a good deal.  You aren't first into
> battle (you aren't any 
> > more likely to get killed since the unfrozen guys
> get killed first) 
> > and you don't have to deal with boredom between
> battles.  Odds are 
> > you sign up, get frozen, and wake up with all your
> pay waiting for 
> > you.
> 
> Unless you missed the clause in the contract that
> calculates your
> "term" by the time you spend *thawed*. Mind you,
> it's legal, because
> you *do* get paid for the frozen time, though at a
> lower rate.
> 
> -- 
> Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 14:03:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 13:03:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : OK, Now What?
In-Reply-To: <p04330103b979b556d090@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028923378.5627.ajackson@ping>

David P. Summers writes:

> My understanding of the argument is that plasma guns are what 
> thermodynamics call heat engines.  Thermo requires (even at maximum 
> possible efficiency) that energies comparble to the shot fired get 
> released by the gun.  So how do you shoot w/out doing as much damage 
> to the gun (or your hand).

Huh?  I'm not sure in what way a plasma gun is a heat engine, and in any case
energies comparable to the shot do get released by the gun (travelling, not
surprisingly, out the muzzle).  The problem with a plasma gun is that you're
firing a bullet made out of ionized gas, and the normal expected behavior of
such a 'bullet' on contacting any sort of atmosphere is to spread out.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 15:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 14:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] test, ignore
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020809124700.009f1ec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3D542FEB.20406@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Douglas Berry wrote:
> At 10:08 AM 8/9/02 -0700, you wrote:
> 
>> This is a test of mime stripping
> 
> 
> Isn't that when you steal Marcel Marceau's hubcaps?
> 
> I mean, how is he going to call the cops and report it?
> 
> 
No no Email first, then we'll stripmime the rest of the Internet!

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 15:12:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 14:12:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
Message-ID: <200208092111.MKR04077@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"markc" says
>Oh, come on, Doug.  You and I both know they're louder than 
>that.

I carried an MP5SD5 for a while.  At the range, when you 
fired it, the sound of the bolt cycling seemed to dominate 
the sound picture, at least from the point of view of the 
person firing the weapon.

From any angle, however, it's unmistakable that someone is 
operating a weapon.

On a side note, I used to call the M-16 (without a 
suppressor) the Orville Redenbacher, because at a distance, 
it sounds like popcorn in the microwave.  Never really 
sounded like a real weapon to me.

I can't imagine lasers making any noise at all, unless you 
hit someone.  And if they aren't in the visible light range 
(ideal transmission is apparently in the near infrared for 
work in Earth's atmosphere), you won't see the near miss 
either.

________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 15:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 14:35:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
In-Reply-To: <200208092111.MKR04077@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1028928845.7419.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> "markc" says
> >Oh, come on, Doug.  You and I both know they're louder than 
> >that.
> 
> I carried an MP5SD5 for a while.  At the range, when you 
> fired it, the sound of the bolt cycling seemed to dominate 
> the sound picture, at least from the point of view of the 
> person firing the weapon.

This could, of course, be related to the fact that a sonic boom can only be
heard to the sides of the moving object.

> I can't imagine lasers making any noise at all, unless you 
> hit someone.  And if they aren't in the visible light range 
> (ideal transmission is apparently in the near infrared for 
> work in Earth's atmosphere), you won't see the near miss 
> either.

I doubt that; I suspect most weapons lasers are IR because chemical lasers have
a tendency to be IR lasers.  For focusing reasons you probably want a
blue-green laser, since it will require a lens about half the diameter (1/4 the
area) of a near IR laser.

In any case, a weapons laser designed for shooting at people will be visible if
there's any dust in the atmosphere; the laser will vaporize the dust (which
will release some light) and many forms of dust will then burn (producing more
light).  Probably quite hard to see during the day, but visible enough at
night.

An X-ray laser, of course, would work differently.  X-rays don't go very far in
atmosphere, but using the standard 0.1A X-ray lasers in FF&S, you can simply
create a very small lens and fire a pulsed beam, tunneling through the
atmosphere.  This isn't terribly efficient (at an estimate, it takes somewhere
between 100 and 1000 meters atmosphere to provide as much armor as a centimeter
of steel), but it's rather unaffected by most forms of obscurement, and would
be extremely visible to observers.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 16:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  9 15:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020809093112.3480.46413.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17dHmw-0002cx-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>

> I'm actually rather surprised: my original estimate was based on just
> eyeballing Tasmania's map and guessing how much of it feeds Tasmania's
> population.  It looks like my original estimate of 1 hectare per
> person was grossly high.  Based on these firmer and more authoritative
> figures, 0.2 hectares per person should suffice.

That's fascinating having last looking into all this about a decade 
ago I wrote my post on this topic w/o rechecking my data.  I got 
the numbers correct, but my memory managed to move a decimal 
place (0.1 hectares/person will barely work if you don't grow dairy 
or meat other than carp).  Man, I hate forgetting data, the faster 
someone discovers a way to upgrade ourselves the better.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com  


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 16:00:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  9 15:00:31 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <20020809142203.8049.65097.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17dHmz-0002cx-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:

> If global causality isn't preserved, then you can have effects without
> causes and a number of other things. And they basicly make hash of the
> very *idea* of there being natural laws. Which is why scientists are
> so reluctant to accept causality violations. 
> 
> Causality is *very* basic. 

Very true, but I still find is fascinating that the primary arguement 
that global causality must hold is aesthetic.  I'm not saying is 
doesn't hold, merely that the reasoning is interesting.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 16:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Fri Aug  9 15:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Do I have to Yahoo! ?
References: <177.cae8ad7.2a847ccf@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001201c23ff0$e1e6dea0$45cad63f@customer>

Thanks Jon.  I had already subcribed when I recieved the e-mail.  I =
guess that's why it was sent to me.  My addled brain thought I had to =
join the group to confirm my subcription.  Your e-mail clears things up =
for me. Thanks again

PS aurichtech got the free month, he was the 'fastest with the mostest'. =
 Besides I have support our boy in uniform.

John Scarlett
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: JFZeigler@aol.com=20
  To: tml@travellercentral.com=20
  Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 10:02 PM
  Subject: Re: [TML] Do I have to Yahoo! ?


  > Could someone tell me if it is necessary to follow these =
instructions to=20
  > subscribe to The JTAS.=20

  Hmmm.=20

  The JTAS group on Yahoo! is mostly just for announcements of new=20
  content in the real Journal of the Traveller's Aid Society. I've never =
seen=20
  it used for anything else.=20

  If you want to subscribe to JTAS itself - the actual webzine currently =

  run by Steve Jackson Games - you can go to http://jtas.sjgames.com/ .=20
  There are samples of content that you can look at before deciding=20
  whether you want to subscribe or not, and I believe you can actually=20
  subscribe using a link from that page.=20

  Enjoy.=20

  ----------=20
  Jon F. Zeigler=20
  Line Editor, GURPS Traveller=20
  jon@sjgames.com=20
  "The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."=20


--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/html
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 16:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri Aug  9 15:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How many Xboats...
In-Reply-To: <200208081636.MIN00707@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208081636.MIN00707@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <p04330105b979f034adc9@[143.232.119.186]>

At 12:36 PM -0400 8/8/02, John T. Kwon wrote:
>Roseberry asks
>>How many Xboats/Xboat tenders does one need to maintain a
>>single Xboat Route?
>
>I want to know how often X-boats leave and arrive.  If the
>boats leave on the hour

Given the 7 week time it will take the message to get there, on the 
hour seems excessive.  I would guess once a day (or less).
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 16:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Fri Aug  9 15:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] test, ignore
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020809124700.009f1ec0@mindspring.com>
References: <B9794537.690D6%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020809124700.009f1ec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020810004328.34283a79.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Listmom wrote:
> This is a test of mime stripping

I get really odd and really naughty images in my head when you say that...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 16:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Aug  9 15:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Arbellatra, Zhakirov and Antiama
References: <20020809190005.13683.7858.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001201c23ff7$843c1fc0$0f5d8690@computer>

> From: Douglas Berry
> I was a bit unclear.  I meant to show that Arbellatra set the stage by
> weakening the Solomani grip on power at the court that had led to the
Civil
> War in the first place.  I imagine many nobles were stripped of their
> titles, and those titles passed to others.  She also, IMTU, shook up the
> bureaucracy and made it more effective by elevating Vilani business people
> to positions of authority, complete with the appropriate titles.

Fair enough. I guess the main thing is that compatibility with existing
canon is maintained.

I just had a look in Rim of Fire. It handles the issue very well. I would go
with their account.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 17:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 16:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] SPAM and Traveller (was For Martin, Loren & Hunter)
In-Reply-To: <m37kj6jfye.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20809.152101.5u4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com> writes:
>> 
>> So does SPAM survive the Rule of Man, the Long Night and into the
>> Third Imperium?
>
> It no longer is manufactures, but reserves of SPAM still exist.  The
> stuff lasts forever, you know...

Along with Velveeta ("The Food That Will Not Die" or some such according
to "Doon")

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 17:04:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 16:04:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Movies
In-Reply-To: <20020804135041.73249.qmail@web20803.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20809.152543.5e8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> OT: has anyone ever concerned the proximity of ships
> to each other in close orbit and planetary
> bombardment?  How close is too close?  Does a fleet
> turn the night sky bright with the multitude of
> invading ships?

Between the velocities involved and the weapon energies, ships should
be spaced *miles* apart. A "tight formation" is one where you can see
the other ships. 

The sort of formations shown in most TV shows and movies is workable
only for "parking orbits" (and not *too* workable there, as during the
course of an orbit the relative distances will change *considerably*)
or for the equivalent of Blue Angels type close formation stunt flying.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 19:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 18:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] hey, wait a minute...
Message-ID: <200208100107.MKZ01680@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

The Sword Worlds had their first interstellar government, the 
Sacnoth Dominate, in -186, and lasting to -102, when 
rebellion broke it up.

Garda-Vilis is supposedly settled in -121 as Tanoose.

I am presuming that Vilis itself is settled before -121.

Would it be presumptuous to assume that Vilis itself was a 
colonization project put up prior to the ascendancy of the 
Sacnoth Dominate, but too far away for the Dominate to 
effectively rule?
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 19:08:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug  9 18:08:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
In-Reply-To: <232810-22002859195212613@M2W075.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <B979B575.6914A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/9/02 12:52 PM, markc@peak.org at markc@peak.org wrote:
>=20
>> A 4mm gauss round would make a high pitched *crack* audible only to
>> those near the flight path.
>=20
> With "near" probably meaning within 200 meters.  (This assumes a
> calm, clear day, across level terrain and with no significant
> background noise to mask the shot.)

Having just been shooting a suppressed M-16 less than a week ago, I can say
that even though it is quite comfortable to shoot without hearing
protection, there is a definite crack that is audible for quite some
distance.  It is, in fact, quite loud, just not painfully.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 19:19:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 18:19:07 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <20809.024856.2h6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <011801c23adc$bdd0f780$1d17bd50@martinjd> <20809.024856.2h6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020810111729.A5883@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Basicly, a nuke that is being used to convery something (styrofoam
> works!) into a plasma to push a bunch of projectiles.

You can even get pretty close to modelling this in GURPS Vehicles :)

Under Orion drives, it gives a formula for total impulse per kiloton
of thrust bomb.  Because the 'Vehicle' doesn't need to remain intact,
you can divide mass of pusher structure by a lot, say 1000.

So, you might model it as a missile with one-shot Orion propulsion and
a beehive warhead.  Unfortunately, Vehicles assigns far more total
damage to each projectile of a multiple-projectile round than is
reasonable.  In particular, every one of thousands of projectiles does
1/4 of the damage that a single solid projectile of the same mass
would do.


So Let's abandon GURPS Vehicles, and work from basic principles,
borrowing capabilities from source material as necessary and
converting back into game system terms only at the end.


Let's say you choose 1 mm ball bearings as the projectiles.  Each
kilogram of warhead thus includes about two hundred thousand of them.

Let's have a 10-kiloton thrust bomb, with a mass of about 1 kg at
TL10.  A propulsion system mass of 10 kg/kiloton doesn't sound too far
out, you do need to protect the payload from being directly vaporised.
So let's add 100 kg of styrofoam or whatever, and 100 kg of ball
bearings.

Assume say 10% efficiency of converting detonation energy to kinetic
energy of payload in the desired direction, for a final payload speed
of 200 km/s.

Now, there are about 20 million probably partly-melted and definitely
misshapen ball bearings travelling at 200 km/s, in say a 1:10 cone.
At a range of 1000 km, there's one ball bearing per 1600 m^2, each
with 1000 MJ of kinetic energy.


Converting back into G:Traveller game terms, the "to-hit" roll is
pretty closely modelled by Size + RoF - Range, where RoF is in this
case the number of ball bearings.  For example, 1 million ball
bearings is +33, and 20 million is +37.  Each two points of success
indicates a doubling of the number of hits.  Damage from each hit is
about 6d x 45, using the Vehicles missile impact damage with a 1 mm
missile travelling at 220,000 yards per second.  Basic cost is about
12 kCr per mine.

There, that doesn't look too shabby.  A weapon for lightly-armoured
ships to fear out to a few thousand kilometres range, and devastating
to them within a few hundred kilometres.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 19:30:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  9 18:30:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Uthe
Message-ID: <12e.15a72e95.2a85c63e@aol.com>

Les writes:

>Where can I find UWP stats for the Uthe subsector? Canon if possible.

That would be in Foreven Sector? Canon for the entire sector comprises one 
set, out of many, of subsector names, world *positions* and about seven world 
UWPs. That's it. Foreven was set aside (other than the above) as "not to be 
officially developed" by GDW late in the MT days.  The handfull of official 
bits were published in Imperiallines #1. Some details beyond this can be 
found in the CT adventures in that sector.

That said, there are a couple fan write-ups out on the net...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 19:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 18:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
Message-ID: <200208100133.MLB00132@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>Let's have a 10-kiloton thrust bomb, with a mass of about 1 
>kg at TL10.  A propulsion system mass of 10 kg/kiloton 
>doesn't sound too far out, you do need to protect the 
>payload from being directly vaporised.
>So let's add 100 kg of styrofoam or whatever, and 100 kg of 
>ball bearings.

First thought: I don't believe 100kg would do it.

>Now, there are about 20 million probably partly-melted and 
>definitely misshapen ball bearings travelling at 200 km/s, 
>in say a 1:10 cone.
>At a range of 1000 km, there's one ball bearing per 1600 
>m^2, each with 1000 MJ of kinetic energy.

This is a bit misleading.  A modern APFSDS penetrator weighs 
around 15 kg, and has a kinetic energy of around 9 MJ.  It is 
designed to unleash its energy inside the target - i.e., it 
has to hold together long enough to penetrate the hull.  
Because the penetrator holds together long enough to spear 
through the hull, it can actually do damage.

These ball bearings sound like micrometeoroids.  Put up a 
Whipple bumper (a thin layer of aluminum, spaced several 
inches away from the main hull), and they'll be vaporized on 
contact with the outer layer, and the energy will be 
harmlessly dissipated, even if it is 1000 MJ.

________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 19:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 18:35:02 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <001a01c23f4b$b6502d00$7400a8c0@matt> <20020809193011.F3949@freeman.little-possums.net> <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt>
Message-ID: <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net>

Matthew Bond wrote:
> Actually I was referring to the immediately prior post in the tread,
> by Flykiller@aol.com...

But Flykiller's post refers specifically to a post saying that planets
fail due to loss of trade, not warfare, damage, or any TNE-specific
features.  To wit:

  >If planets are so self sufficient, then why does TNE describe planets
  >failing because they were cut off from interstellar trade?

The answer is that TNE does *not* describe planets failing because
they were cut off from interstellar trade.

TNE describes planets failing because they have been torn by sabotage,
subversion by hostile life-forms, warfare, looting, and numerous other
factors not particularly related to loss of trade.  It is hence
irrelevant to the preceding discussion.


> Your arguement was that irrespective of trade all planets can
> (perhaps even 'must') be self sufficient.

No, my argument was that trade levels for high-pop worlds are known to
be so low that there can not be any short-term external dependence on
trade.

Longer-term dependence on a scale of centuries may be a possibility,
but I personally think it far more likely that if trade was cut, it
would not take that long to develop local resources to cover or avoid
the very small shortfall.


> Thats all I'm saying... given sufficient stress to the system
> (irrespective of which particular Traveller setting you use), you
> can Fail any planet that isn't capable of supporting life without
> TL9+ intervention.

That's rather a guarded and qualified statement.  I'd go further and
say that given sufficient stress to the system, you can Fail any
planet at all!

But it won't be due to lack of trade, which was the contention of the
original post.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 19:38:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 18:38:09 2002
Subject: [TML] settlement date of Vilis
Message-ID: <200208100137.MLB00305@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I'm putting the settlement date of Vilis down as -240, some 
time before the Sacnoth Dominate, and the colonists leaving 
from Gungnir.

Any thoughts?
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 19:40:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 18:40:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <3D540E41.1040509@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D53003A.1070102@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020809190742.B3949@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D540E41.1040509@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020810113922.D5883@freeman.little-possums.net>

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> The fact that they all share remarkable similarities in background
> story is mere coincidence ;-)

Sort of makes a shambles of the acronym "OTU" though :(


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 20:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Fri Aug  9 19:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Was there really a Nung River in Indochina? Was: Uthe
In-Reply-To: <12e.15a72e95.2a85c63e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020809211618.00a919f0@minn.net>

At 09:28 PM 8/9/2002 EDT, GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:
>Les writes:
>
>>Where can I find UWP stats for the Uthe subsector? Canon if possible.
>
>That would be in Foreven Sector? Canon for the entire sector comprises one 
>set, out of many, of subsector names, world *positions* and about seven
world 
>UWPs. That's it. Foreven was set aside (other than the above) as "not to be 
>officially developed" by GDW late in the MT days.  The handfull of official 
>bits were published in Imperiallines #1. Some details beyond this can be 
>found in the CT adventures in that sector.

Sorry, I believe that you are incorrect.

If I recall correctly the Foreven sector is spinward of the Spinward
Marches. The Uthe subsector is shown in Supplement 3 as being immediately
coreward of the Regina subsector. 

I need the data for my demented OTU rewrite of Coppola's demented remake of
The Wizard of Oz.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 20:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug  9 19:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
Message-ID: <20020810004141.99222.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

>The also ran into a wild card: Norris.  You can't predict an 
>unexpected enemy commander that is a bloody genius and has figured
>out your plan.  I always wondered if Norris' branch of Naval
>Intelligence hadn't actually learned bits and pieces of the Zhodani
>plan.

and then failed to disclose those bits and pieces to Sector Admiral
Santanocheev, to destroy his credibility before the Emperor, and to
allow the advance of other members of the INI cabal ... how paranoid
are we?

>The Zho's over-reached themselves, in my opinion.  They didn't 
>properly understand the strength of the Imperium's "defense in
>depth" concept, nor the tenacity of local forces.

Shtaliajtlas was an idiot, actually, who had not run enough
simulations to know how to get and hold 300 points before the
Imperium could react and start rolling the Zhodanis back.  

--Glenn


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 20:43:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Aug  9 19:43:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Gencon Details?
Message-ID: <3D547C9B.5C463567@mail.cswnet.com>

Anyone with details on whats going on at Gencon?

[sniffle] I wish I was there. [out right crying]

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 20:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 19:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <200208100133.MLB00132@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208100133.MLB00132@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020810124558.E5883@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> First thought: I don't believe 100kg would do it.

I'm assuming GTL 10-12 (TTL C-F), not current-day.  I thought I'd give
the concept the benefit of the doubt.


> These ball bearings sound like micrometeoroids.

Yes.  Only about ten times faster, roughly five times as dense, and at
least a few thousand times the volume.  They could be considered "like
micrometeroids" in the same sense that an APFSDS penetrator could be
considered "like a piece of bird shot".

I did totally miscalculate their energy though; it is really 100 kJ.
Yes, that's pathetic, and yet another strike against GURPS Vehicles
that it gives them a damage of 6d x 45.  You still want a fairly good
hull material though.

Suppose the aluminium layer is 3 mm thick (which seems generous enough
for a Whipple bumper).  The speed of the projectile is about 20 times
the speed of sound in aluminium, and hence the mass of aluminium that
absorbs energy works out to at most 7 milligrams.

It actually works out much less still, because at 200 km/s there is a
very good chance that the nuclei of the projectile atoms pass through
the spaces between the aluminium nuclei with greatly reduced
deflection.  The projectile should be more accurately modelled as a
coherent particle pulse than a solid object when considering the
terminal ballistics.  But assume that doesn't really happen.

Instead of a projectile travelling at 200 km/s, after the bumper
you're left with a jet of plasma at 10 million kelvin travelling at an
average speed of more than 80 km/s.  That hits your bare hull, still
carrying most of its original energy.  Not good.


Obviously, if the energy really was 1000 MJ then the bumper would be
utterly useless.  Such a bumper is designed to stop much smaller and
slower projectiles with kinetic energies of less than a 1 J that might
otherwise cause erosion.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 21:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 20:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1028582658.5758.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20809.200112.4y7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Steven Hudson writes:
>> 
>>   "Fighter Division: ... Fighters are used for long range
>> patrols and recon within a system, allows (sic) the carrier
>> advanced warning of enemy ... In addition, the fighters are
>> expected to hold the screen against enemy vessels until the
>> Riders are ready to begin* a battle".
>
> Two problems:
>
> 1)  In space, it tends to be easier to simply tack a great big sensor on the
> main ship.

Except that a synethic aperture sensor using fighters well away from
the ship will *always* have better resolution than any array the ship
can carry because resolution depends on *width* of the sensor.

The shipboard sensor may have higher *sensitivity* because sensitivity
depends on surface area of the sensor (or sensors in the case of
multi-element arrays). 

The higher resolution is useful in getting distance and location of
enemy ships. Which makes for better targetting solutions.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 21:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug  9 20:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
Message-ID: <200208100314.MLD01626@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>I'm assuming GTL 10-12 (TTL C-F), not current-day.  I 
>thought I'd give the concept the benefit of the doubt.

I seem to recall that bumper material is just a straight heat 
of vaporization kind of thing.  Distance from blast, yield, 
etc.  Not that a nuclear shotgun hasn't been invented.  They 
were evidently considered for SDI, but that part of the OTA 
report is still classified.


>Yes.  Only about ten times faster, roughly five times as 
>dense, and at least a few thousand times the volume.  

NASA apparently tests using a steel 3mm projectile at 7km/sec.

>You still want a fairly good hull material though.

Apparently the reason that multilayered, thin, spaced bumpers 
do better than solid armor at protecting against impact that 
turns a projectile into plasma is that solid armor tends to 
confine the plasma - the penetration is actually enhanced.  
With a space between each layer, the plasma has (albeit 
nanoseconds) time to expand after passing through successive 
layers.  And even a few nanoseconds of expansion is better 
than none at all.

>It actually works out much less still, because at 200 km/s 
>there is a very good chance that the nuclei of the 
>projectile atoms pass through the spaces between the 
>aluminium nuclei with greatly reduced
>deflection.  

I don't see 200km/sec as a velocity range where we would get 
these kinds of effects.  Maybe at relativistic velocities.

>Instead of a projectile travelling at 200 km/s, after the 
>bumper you're left with a jet of plasma at 10 million kelvin 
>travelling at an average speed of more than 80 km/s.  

But it's not an inline jet, as it would largely remain if it 
hit solid armor plate with decent thickness.  So now there's 
some jet, and some of the energy is dissipating as a 
hemispherical shock front of plasma.

>That hits your bare hull, still carrying most of its 
>original energy.  Not good.

Yes, but spread over a slightly wider area.  And if I have 
multiple layers, the layers get chewed up, but the ship is 
unharmed.  Of course, a shotgun effect like this could 
effectively clean off one side of the ship - the bumpers 
could be swept away, along with any exposed antennae, 
turrets, etc.  Perhaps even maneuver thrusters if the hit 
came from behind.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 21:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Fri Aug  9 20:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
Message-ID: <000001c2401f$59029320$33c3d63f@customer>

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> >The fact that they all share remarkable similarities in background
> >story is mere coincidence ;-)

Tim Little wrote:
>Sort of makes a shambles of the acronym "OTU" though :(

The fact is that the OTU as it stands is contradictory, inconsistent and, at
times, unworkable.
It's a mish-mash put together by dozens of different people with no apparent
continuity control.

There doesn't appear to have been any effort to make the various rules sets
mesh together either.

John Scarlett




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 21:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Aug  9 20:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
Message-ID: <F127V8MoyGnyxrDyfbX00007185@hotmail.com>

From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

     "I suggest constant suggestions that the young hellion requires an
immediate bath."


Mr. Berry,

     Thank you for the additional ammunition sir!  My threats of "I'll sell 
you for medical experiments" and "I'll mail you to the undertaker" have lost 
their luster.

     "But can be considered a success.  There have been no Imperial
attempts to establish colonies in Zhodani space for 700 years."

     Oh yes, a rousing success.  The buffer zone intended circa 500 hasn't 
been completed yet, but there are no Imperial colonies, client states, or 
whatever in Zhodani space.  The buffer zone requirement may simply be a 
"leftover" goal from the original strategy sessions in the 500's.  The Zhos 
have already achieved the benefits a buffer zone would give them, but not 
the actual buffer zone itself.

     "The also ran into a wild card: Norris.  You can't predict an
unexpected enemy commander that is a bloody genius and has figured out your 
plan.  I always wondered if Norris' branch of Naval Intelligence hadn't 
actually learned bits and pieces of the Zhodani plan."

     True.  The Imperium had a few geniuses during that war.  Add to the 
total, the SDB flotilla commander who scattered his forces to continually 
contest the Zho's supply line for the Efate siege rather than fight to the 
death.  Or the sophont who led the 212th against the Swords during the war's 
latter stages, smashing the Sacnoth fleet and occupying the good chunk of 
the Confederation in 90 days is nothing to sneeze at.  Or the sophont who 
defended Rhylanor, he/she/it might have known about a prospective Zho 
offensive but they still beat it.

     "The Zho's over-reached themselves, in my opinion.  They didn't
properly understand the strength of the Imperium's "defense in depth" 
concept, nor the tenacity of local forces."

     The Zho plan may have worked against the old Imperial "crust defense" 
policy.  The "islands of resistance" policy threw the Zhos a nasty curve, 
they completely failed to pick up IN paradigm shift despite the TNS news 
briefs.  As victors of the last 3 of 4 wars, the Zhos planned and fought the 
LAST frontier war.  As losers of the last 3 of 4 wars, the Imperials 
(finally) planned and fought the NEXT frontier war.  That little morality 
play has occurred too many times in human history not to be recognized.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 21:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Aug  9 20:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
In-Reply-To: <000001c2401f$59029320$33c3d63f@customer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020809235319.02899e68@192.168.0.1>

At 11:36 PM 8/9/2002 -0400, John Scarlett wrote:
>Bruce Johnson wrote:
> > >The fact that they all share remarkable similarities in background
> > >story is mere coincidence ;-)
>Tim Little wrote:
> >Sort of makes a shambles of the acronym "OTU" though :(
>The fact is that the OTU as it stands is contradictory, inconsistent and, at
>times, unworkable.
>It's a mish-mash put together by dozens of different people with no apparent
>continuity control.

Well, some...but even works by single authors show inconsistencies.
I'm sure folks in the list can give multiple examples in popular fiction.

>There doesn't appear to have been any effort to make the various rules sets
>mesh together either.

Hmmmm....and the business model for making GT mech to CT rules?



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 22:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Aug  9 21:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
Message-ID: <F50zbAUfKRfcjcMzfoV000000cd@hotmail.com>

From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

     "I heartily endorse your basic analysis,..."

Mr. Goffin,

     Please see a mental health professional as soon as possible.  While 
Whipsnade's Syndrome is terminal, the final stages may be delayed long 
enough to allow the sufferers a nearly normal life.  The usual prescription 
involves a daily dose of alcohol.

     "... which must be further evidence for the common belief that great 
minds think alike -- er, I mean, that Traveller players need to get a life 
-- no wait a bit..."

     Yes, I do need to get a life.

     "Anyway, if the boardgame of Fifth Frontier War is a good 
simulation,..."

     It's the ONLY simulation we have! (shudder)

     "So the Jewells would not have to be ground down by planetary sieges.  
Jewell itself is always a battle, but the Mongo National Guard will flee in 
terror after some bombing, and Esalin, Emerald, and Ruby have no defense 
forces to speak of (those TL 8 motorized infantry on Esalin are more 
terrified that the MNG, but can't flee as fast).  Lysen and Grant likewise 
need only to be occupied."

     Your are, of course, correct sir.  Jewel may require a siege, but the 
Jewels do not.

     "Begin processing the captives!"

     Hi, I'm Larsen and I'm a deadhead.
     Hi, Larsen!  Give us back our wristwatches!



     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 22:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 21:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <200208091101.MJX01284@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20809.201104.3R7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson
>>Causality is *very* basic. 
>
> Wheeler has shown that there is no proof that causality is a 
> requirement of this universe as a basic law.  It makes a nice 
> thought, but by no means is it a requirement.
>
> The two-slit experiment, played out over interstellar 
> distances, or even across a tabletop in a lab, was shown in 
> 1987 to indicate that causality is violated on a regular 
> basis.

Excuse me? Care to detail exactly *how* it violates causality?

It may violate *local* causality. But *global* causality is a very
different kettle of fish.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 22:11:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 21:11:15 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <200208091312.MKB02981@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20809.201248.7O9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> "Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance" says
>>Not quite. If I understand Wheeler correctly, causality is 
>>not violated as such (cause still precedes effect). Its just 
>>cause is not determined until the effect is observed.
>
> the problem is that the nature of the observation will force 
> a photon to the left or the right - an observation that is 
> taken perhaps a billion years after the photon departed. 

So? The effect (left or right) still *has* a cause (the observation). 

So *global* causality is upheld. Local isn't.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 22:11:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 21:11:31 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <E17dHmz-0002cx-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20809.201407.9P9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
>
>> If global causality isn't preserved, then you can have effects without
>> causes and a number of other things. And they basicly make hash of the
>> very *idea* of there being natural laws. Which is why scientists are
>> so reluctant to accept causality violations. 
>> 
>> Causality is *very* basic. 
>
> Very true, but I still find is fascinating that the primary arguement 
> that global causality must hold is aesthetic.  I'm not saying is 
> doesn't hold, merely that the reasoning is interesting.

Well, in the end it boils down to "without global causality 'reasoning'
is merely wishful thinking". 

Because without global causality, it's not possible to draw
conclusions. "If A then B" doesn't hold. And without that, everything
else falls apart.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 22:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Fri Aug  9 21:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Obeyery of Stave
In-Reply-To: <20020809195517.52468.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPCEHHEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

I am currently in the process of re-doing my entire web site.  What I was
wondering is if anyone can take a look at what I have done with the Stave
system (part of the Traveller Landgrab) and the Obeyery who were mentioned
in BTC, and suggest anything more they would like to see. I will probably
expand the details of the other two systems which are only partly completed,
at the same time.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug  9 23:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri Aug  9 22:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller - more
In-Reply-To: <d1.1c6715c7.2a8098f4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20809.212402.6L7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>  >Actually, given some of the other tech, the weapons could be fusion
>  >warheads that don't *need* a fission trigger.
>
> I see.  Then (ignoring the fact that this is fantasy technology) I suppose 
> that anyone with access to a fusion plant of any size will have access to a 
> fusion "nuke" (for lack of another word)?
>
> Book 4 states that the PGMP-13 is powered by a fusion reactor.  I don't 
> suppose this would be significantly larger than that on a missile, so how 
> much modification would be needed to turn it into a bomb?

That we can't say. But it'd be rather like turning a propane torch into
a bomb. Doable, but messy.

Fusion doesn't have "critical mass" (unless you are talking about star
sized masses). So you have to do *something* to the fusion fuel to make
it fuse *fast*, and in quantity. This requires not mere high temps and
pressures, but *something* (inertia, pressure, whatever) to keep the
fuel in the reaction area long enough to react.

Maybe gravitics? 

Fusion reactors are even harder to make go "boom" than fission
reactors. And even fission reactors don't explode easily. They don't do
*nuclear* explosions at all unless you pull all the fuel, repack it and
use a *lot* of explosives.

Even so, anything that can make an FGMP or air raft fusion plant work,
could probably make a "pure" fusion bomob that wasn't overly huge. Say
the size of an early atomic bomb. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 00:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug  9 23:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <200208100314.MLD01626@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208100314.MLD01626@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020810155906.A6285@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> I seem to recall that bumper material is just a straight heat 
> of vaporization kind of thing.  Distance from blast, yield, 
> etc.

Yeah, I'm assuming much better materials at TL 12 than here at TL 7.


> NASA apparently tests using a steel 3mm projectile at 7km/sec.

That's a very big "micro"meteoroid!  It's travelling a lot slower
though, so that probably makes up for it.


> With a space between each layer, the plasma has (albeit 
> nanoseconds) time to expand after passing through successive 
> layers.

Sure -- at the expense of more cost and hugely more volume.


> I don't see 200km/sec as a velocity range where we would get these
> kinds of effects.  Maybe at relativistic velocities.

200 km/s *is* starting to get into relativisitic velocities; it is
approaching 0.1% of c.

Work it out yourself though.  An iron nucleus at 200 km/s has a
kinetic energy of 12 keV.  That's a couple of orders of magnitude more
than the binding energy of its electrons, so chemical effects are not
a significant factor.  The nuclei *are* essentially independent
particles.

It so happens that a few millimetres of aluminium is enough to
thermalise the nuclei, and the aluminium will become a significant
part of the resulting plasma.


> But it's not an inline jet, as it would largely remain if it 
> hit solid armor plate with decent thickness.  So now there's 
> some jet, and some of the energy is dissipating as a 
> hemispherical shock front of plasma.

Less than 1/4 of the energy dissipates sideways in this case.  Yes,
multiple layers will do a much better job.  Most of the energy will be
absorbed by the 3rd or 4th layer.


> Of course, a shotgun effect like this could effectively clean off
> one side of the ship

Worse than that: the bumper layers rely for their effectiveness on
extremely sparse impacts.  The plasma from one impact destroys a much
larger region of the layers than the size of the projectile.  For
example, the impact in question would probably render 4-5 layers
ineffective over a region 20-50 cm via blast effects originating at
about layer 3 warping the structure around it.

If another projectile hits nearby, there will be much less protection.
There is a good chance that it would directly hit the hull.


You should also remember how much space these layers take up.  For a
400 dton ship, each layer consumes at least 10 dtons or so.  Since
they're no better protection than solid armour against anything bigger
than a centimetre or so at starship combat speeds (or any starship
weapons), it seems like a pretty poor deal to me.

I don't think Traveller ships would bother with spaced armour, since
their costs are so heavily volume-dependent.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 00:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Aug  9 23:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <20020810155906.A6285@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHIEOIILAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> I seem to recall that bumper material is just a straight heat 
> of vaporization kind of thing.  Distance from blast, yield, 
> etc.

Yeah, I'm assuming much better materials at TL 12 than here at TL 7.


> NASA apparently tests using a steel 3mm projectile at 7km/sec.

That's a very big "micro"meteoroid!  It's travelling a lot slower
though, so that probably makes up for it.


> With a space between each layer, the plasma has (albeit 
> nanoseconds) time to expand after passing through successive 
> layers.

Sure -- at the expense of more cost and hugely more volume.


> I don't see 200km/sec as a velocity range where we would get these
> kinds of effects.  Maybe at relativistic velocities.

200 km/s *is* starting to get into relativisitic velocities; it is
approaching 0.1% of c.

Work it out yourself though.  An iron nucleus at 200 km/s has a
kinetic energy of 12 keV.  That's a couple of orders of magnitude more
than the binding energy of its electrons, so chemical effects are not
a significant factor.  The nuclei *are* essentially independent
particles.

It so happens that a few millimetres of aluminium is enough to
thermalise the nuclei, and the aluminium will become a significant
part of the resulting plasma.


> But it's not an inline jet, as it would largely remain if it 
> hit solid armor plate with decent thickness.  So now there's 
> some jet, and some of the energy is dissipating as a 
> hemispherical shock front of plasma.

Less than 1/4 of the energy dissipates sideways in this case.  Yes,
multiple layers will do a much better job.  Most of the energy will be
absorbed by the 3rd or 4th layer.


> Of course, a shotgun effect like this could effectively clean off
> one side of the ship

Worse than that: the bumper layers rely for their effectiveness on
extremely sparse impacts.  The plasma from one impact destroys a much
larger region of the layers than the size of the projectile.  For
example, the impact in question would probably render 4-5 layers
ineffective over a region 20-50 cm via blast effects originating at
about layer 3 warping the structure around it.

If another projectile hits nearby, there will be much less protection.
There is a good chance that it would directly hit the hull.


You should also remember how much space these layers take up.  For a
400 dton ship, each layer consumes at least 10 dtons or so.  Since
they're no better protection than solid armour against anything bigger
than a centimetre or so at starship combat speeds (or any starship
weapons), it seems like a pretty poor deal to me.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Can't they just use TL 15 strip mine?

jml
Of course he's a folk singer
he sounds like he's got terminal mumps


I don't think Traveller ships would bother with spaced armour, since
their costs are so heavily volume-dependent.


- Tim
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 00:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  9 23:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] test, ignore
Message-ID: <5ad2d65abf6f.5abf6f5ad2d6@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Date: Friday, August 9, 2002 8:08 pm
Subject: [TML] test, ignore

> This is a test of mime stripping

"Don't look, Ethel!" ;-)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 00:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug  9 23:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] test3, ignore
Message-ID: <5acc125ad03b.5ad03b5acc12@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Date: Friday, August 9, 2002 8:33 pm
Subject: [TML] test3, ignore

> Final MIME test

Must be working.  I didn't hear a thing. ;-)

OTOH, I _did_ hear Tom Bodett's voice in my mind's ear....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 00:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri Aug  9 23:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Uthe
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020809211618.00a919f0@minn.net>
Message-ID: <20020810065021.7C9C72793A@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/09/02 at 09:16 PM,  Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net> said:

>At 09:28 PM 8/9/2002 EDT, GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:
>>Les writes:
>>
>>>Where can I find UWP stats for the Uthe subsector? Canon if possible.

>>That would be in Foreven Sector? Canon for the entire sector comprises one 
>>set, out of many, of subsector names, world *positions* and about seven
>world 
>>UWPs. That's it. Foreven was set aside (other than the above) as "not to be 
>>officially developed" by GDW late in the MT days.  The handfull of official 
>>bits were published in Imperiallines #1. Some details beyond this can be 
>>found in the CT adventures in that sector.

>Sorry, I believe that you are incorrect.

>If I recall correctly the Foreven sector is spinward of the Spinward
>Marches. The Uthe subsector is shown in Supplement 3 as being
>immediately coreward of the Regina subsector. 

Gvurrdon Sector/Subsector O -- Uthe

 I go to <http://zho.bekka.com/data/CLASSIC/> for my OTU data needs.
<g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 01:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat Aug 10 00:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020809081646.009f77c0@mindspring.com>
References: <F24qs1wP7vvqgqGTwgT0000593c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D556531.21647.F79DE@localhost>

On 9 Aug 2002 at 8:27, Douglas Berry wrote:

> >     The Zho's three main offensives fit this idea neatly.  First, they 
> > "pin down" the Jewels.  Second, a sickle stroke through the Efate region 
> > to cut the Jewels off.  Third, a deep strike at Rhylanor to gain the 
> > war's supreme bargaining chip.
> >     If all had gone well, the Jewels would be slowly ground down by a 
> > series of planetary seiges, cutoff from the rest of the Imperium by Zho 
> > forces in the Efate region, and eventually abandoned by the Imperium at 
> > the negotiation table in return for the Zhodani evacuation of Rhylanor.
> >     Of course, no plan survives contact with the enemy, but the 
> > Consulate's hubris can be forgiven.  After all, they had won every 
> > Frontier War prior to the Fifth.  To paraphrase Moltke, the Consulate 
> > planned well, but didn't quite plan enough.
> 
> The also ran into a wild card: Norris.  You can't predict an unexpected 
> enemy commander that is a bloody genius and has figured out your plan.  I 
> always wondered if Norris' branch of Naval Intelligence hadn't actually 
> learned bits and pieces of the Zhodani plan.
> 
> The Zho's over-reached themselves, in my opinion.  They didn't properly 
> understand the strength of the Imperium's "defense in depth" concept, nor 
> the tenacity of local forces.

The latter is perhaps understandable, as in previous wars they didn't 
seem to have much trouble 'persuading' systems to leave the Imperium. 
The time between the Third Frontier War and the 4th & 5th wars seems to 
have been sufficient for the Spinward Marches to become firmly 
integrated into the 3I at a fundmental, emotional level.

As for lack of understanding of the 'defence in depth' - IIRC the rider 
'Rons didn't make too good a showing in the 4th War, so they may have 
underestimeted their effectiveness, even though the rapid-reaction role 
is probably the strongest defensive role for the rider component of a 
fleet.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 01:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 10 00:37:03 2002
Subject: Armor Schemes (was: Re: [TML] mines)
Message-ID: <5b9b0f5ba833.5ba8335b9b0f@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
Date: Saturday, August 10, 2002 8:59 am
Subject: Re: [TML] mines

<<snip>> 
> 
> You should also remember how much space these layers take up.  For a
> 400 dton ship, each layer consumes at least 10 dtons or so.  Since
> they're no better protection than solid armour against anything bigger
> than a centimetre or so at starship combat speeds (or any starship
> weapons), it seems like a pretty poor deal to me.
> 
> I don't think Traveller ships would bother with spaced armour, since
> their costs are so heavily volume-dependent.

What I've done on some of my FF&S2 designs is place additional armor on 
certain components, such as the power plant and drive sections.  Thus, 
while a shot may penetrate the main hull armor, it often doesn't have 
the energy left to pepentrate the additional armor to damage the 
component within.  _Montana_ takes advantage of this, as does Rob Day's 
IW-era _Vanguard_ ship design.

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Rampart/2555/vanguard.htm



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 01:43:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Sat Aug 10 00:43:10 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
Message-ID: <000001c2403c$3dbce440$8bdad63f@customer>

John Scarlett wrote:
 Mark Urbin responds:
> >The fact is that the OTU as it stands is contradictory, inconsistent and,
at
> >times, unworkable.
> >It's a mish-mash put together by dozens of different people with no
apparent
> >continuity control.
>
> Well, some...but even works by single authors show inconsistencies.
> I'm sure folks in the list can give multiple examples in popular fiction.
>
> >There doesn't appear to have been any effort to make the various rules
sets
> >mesh together either.
>
> Hmmmm....and the business model for making GT mesh to CT rules?

Well, I guess the headmaster caught me making broad, unsupported statements
again. ;-)  But seriously, communication isn't my strong suit.  If I speak
more than 20 words a day to someone other than myself, or the cats and dogs,
I'm being effusive.  The fact that I can type more words than I'll ever
speak in my lifetime, doesn't change the fact that I'm not a good
communicator.

So, my above statements don't accurately reflect the point that I was trying
to make.  When I talk about the rules sets not meshing, I mean that how
things work is different from rules set to rules set so that your not able
to do some things in one rules set that you could with another rules set.
This doesn't allow for much meaningful discussion of how things work between
people who are using different rules sets.

As for the OTU, I was blissfully happy with it until I joined the TML.  It's
the various threads on 'How This doesn't work' and 'How does That really
work?' that have led me to the conclusion that there's something not quite
right with the OTU.

Frankly I don't know why I'm making such a fuss.  I've always believed that
I should do what I want IMTU and I should let everybody else do what they
want in their TU's.  The OTU is vague enough to allow for many different
interpretations.  Maybe it was designed to be that way on purpose.

John Scarlett




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 01:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 10 00:49:02 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
 CHALLENGE)
Message-ID: <5b2a125b101f.5b101f5b2a12@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
Date: Saturday, August 10, 2002 4:34 am
Subject: Re: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in 
traveller CHALLENGE)

<<snip>>
> 
>  >If planets are so self sufficient, then why does TNE describe 
> planets  >failing because they were cut off from interstellar trade?
> 
> The answer is that TNE does *not* describe planets failing because
> they were cut off from interstellar trade.
> 
> TNE describes planets failing because they have been torn by sabotage,
> subversion by hostile life-forms, warfare, looting, and numerous other
> factors not particularly related to loss of trade.  It is hence
> irrelevant to the preceding discussion.

My take would be that loss of trade became a factor in causing failure 
on worlds that depended on off-world life support tech to maintain 
habitability.  Under normal circumstances, they would be viable for 
quite some time (probably centuries) before a loss of trade would 
deplete spare parts to the point that life support fails.  With the 
destruction wrought by Black War (let alone Virus), a loss of trade 
means that spare parts used to repair war-damaged systems can't be 
replaced, leading to the acceleration of life support failure.

<<snip>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 02:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug 10 01:09:02 2002
Subject: Armor Schemes (was: Re: [TML] mines)
In-Reply-To: <5b9b0f5ba833.5ba8335b9b0f@us.army.mil>
References: <5b9b0f5ba833.5ba8335b9b0f@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <20020810180812.B6285@freeman.little-possums.net>

john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:
> What I've done on some of my FF&S2 designs is place additional armor on 
> certain components, such as the power plant and drive sections.

Yes, that works in GURPS Vehicles too.  However, it usually works out
cheaper and more reliable to just have multiple drives and power
plants, so that loss of one or two merely reduces capacity somewhat.

There is one major exception: the jump coils.  They are compact, vital
to mobility, and very expensive.  You should definitely armour them
separately if you expect to see combat.  The main bridge is another
reasonable candidate.  It is not too hard to put DR 30000 on each
without impacting on performance in other ways.

It is not clear to me whether you can have internal meson screens.  If
you can, then a DR 60000 screen should probably be put in as well.

Of course, neither is going to do much against a standard missile
doing 6d x 4000 (5).  Half a million points of armour is really just
getting silly (and infeasible).  :/


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 02:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug 10 01:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fighter SQDs as "Batteries"
In-Reply-To: <20809.200112.4y7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <ML-2.3.1028582658.5758.ajackson@ping> <20809.200112.4y7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020810185016.C6285@freeman.little-possums.net>

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Except that a synethic aperture sensor using fighters well away from
> the ship will *always* have better resolution than any array the
> ship can carry because resolution depends on *width* of the sensor.

Yes, I've always thought that ships's sensors should consist at least
partly of externally deployed units.  Putting those units on fighters
seems a little odd, though.  Surely you want them to be unmanned for
an absolute minimum of uncontrolled vibration and other bad
influences.

If you're doing visible interferometry, then half a micrometre of
uncompensated motion means uselessness.  Far-IR work is almost as bad,
and requires low thermal noise as well.  Shorter wavelengths don't
need external interferometry, since a single ship can theoretically
obtain all the resolution it would want from its own hull-mounted
detectors.

I envisage most detection taking place via far IR (heat radiation),
optionally followed by ladar tracking.  A synthetic aperture of a
kilometre or so diameter should give resolution at million kilometre
range (60 G:Traveller hexes) of about 10 metres in passive IR, without
being too cumbersome in the number and positioning of external
elements.

Naturally, it makes no sense to have resolution finer than the size of
region from which you can pick up a single photon per unit of time in
which you are interested.  Nor does it make sense to have your
external stations so far out that you can't constantly monitor their
position to within half a wavelength.  These factors will limit the
size of any synthetic aperture array.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 04:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sat Aug 10 03:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <200208091312.MKB02981@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D558F56.25375.B1AA6F1@localhost>

On 9 Aug 2002, at 9:12, John T. Kwon wrote:

> the problem is that the nature of the observation will force 
> a photon to the left or the right - an observation that is 
> taken perhaps a billion years after the photon departed. 

Working from my laymans knowledge of quantum mechanics, I believe 
there is no violation of causality here. Several billion years ago the photon 
leaves the quasar, it then travels all potential paths to the observer in 
variant probabilities, the photon then arrives at earth where the act of 
observeration selects which of the variant probabilities becomes part of 
reality. See, no violation of causality (a splitting headache maybe, but no 
violation of causality)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 04:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 03:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
In-Reply-To: <OFBA2D763C.F2E139E2-ONCA256C0E.000A4049@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20810.001307.7E6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I'd been thinking about this for a while, too. A copyright question that I 
> don't know the answer to is, "Is it 'fair use' if I put a Jesse picture on 
> ONE T-Shirt for my own use?"

Actually, given *some* of us in this group, an "I <heart> HE" shirt
like Ditzie's might do well, and could be sold to the mainstream.

Which reminds me:

http://jokeworm.com/AToons/AT280.jpg

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 04:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 03:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <3d51707a.2567266@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20810.031716.6F9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng) writes:
>
>>Thanks.  Anybody can provide with how the Royal Navy does it?  Has the =
> USN
>>changed anything from the afore-explained procedure?=20
>
> I always liked David Weber's change of command ceremonies in the Honor
> Harrington books, but I don't know whether they're based on genuine
> Napoleonic-era Royal Navy practice or just something DW made up...
>
> (in brief, the new Captain is welcomed on board the ship as a visiting
> senior officer, is escorted to the bridge, makes an all-hands
> announcement in which (s)he reads aloud the written orders from the
> Admiralty directing him/her "To proceed aboard Her Majesty's Starship
> <Foo>, there to take upon yourself the duties and responsibilities of
> commanding officer in the service of the Crown"; after which the new
> Captain formally tells the previous (acting) commander "I assume
> command".)

C.S. Forester had Horatio Hornblower doing the same thing, so it's
*probably* authentic.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 05:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith Mormon minion of Arioch)
Date: Sat Aug 10 04:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
References: <000001c2401f$59029320$33c3d63f@customer>
Message-ID: <010001c2405d$3515c2f0$6f7ba8c0@kenneith93j41k>

Well just go by what the little black books say and you will be happy, oh no
wait that is my solution
:)
ken

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comics
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you
http://www.geocities.com/J_Elric_Smith/Index.html
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Scarlett" <jlscarlett@earthlink.net>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 11:36 PM
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.


> Bruce Johnson wrote:
> > >The fact that they all share remarkable similarities in background
> > >story is mere coincidence ;-)
>
> Tim Little wrote:
> >Sort of makes a shambles of the acronym "OTU" though :(
>
> The fact is that the OTU as it stands is contradictory, inconsistent and,
at
> times, unworkable.
> It's a mish-mash put together by dozens of different people with no
apparent
> continuity control.
>
> There doesn't appear to have been any effort to make the various rules
sets
> mesh together either.
>
> John Scarlett
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 05:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sat Aug 10 04:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
In-Reply-To: <3D556531.21647.F79DE@localhost>
References: <F24qs1wP7vvqgqGTwgT0000593c@hotmail.com> <3D556531.21647.F79DE@localhost>
Message-ID: <3d55f441.2663671@post.demon.co.uk>

"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:

>> The Zho's over-reached themselves, in my opinion.  They didn't =
properly=20
>> understand the strength of the Imperium's "defense in depth" concept, =
nor=20
>> the tenacity of local forces.
>
>The latter is perhaps understandable, as in previous wars they didn't=20
>seem to have much trouble 'persuading' systems to leave the Imperium.=20

Well, naturally they didn't have much trouble "persuading" the local
inhabitants... they *are* dirty mindraping brainwashing Joe scum,
after all...

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 05:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 04:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <003c01c23dc2$11fe1850$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <20810.032526.5d5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Eric Frank Russell never became as famous as many of the other Hugo
> Winners, but some of his novels have recently been re-issued and are
> available at Amazon(1). Shadow Man: The life and works of Eric Frank
> Russell(2) is a good fan site. For some reviews of some of Russell's
> other works, visit this site(3).

I hope the re-issue "The Great Explosion". Or a book containing all the
stories from it. 

It has some *very* odd societies that any Traveller referree can swipe
to put on Earthlike worlds. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 05:23:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 04:23:18 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <e4e645e4c45c.e4c45ce4e645@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <20810.031820.6v4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Jeff D. Greenly" says
>> <snip naval change of command>
>> 
>> Don't forget - the outgoing commander has to do an inventory 
>> with the new commander, and the new commander gets to sign 
>> for the ship and all of the equipment in it.
>
> Anybody know if a _Nimitz_-class CVN has a National Stock Number? ;-)
>
> As the incoming captain signs a one-page hand receipt for "Carrier, 
> Aircraft, Nuclear-Powered, w/ancillary equipment"...then spends the next 
> week signing all the annexes to the hand receipt....

Eric Frank Russell's short story "Allamagoosa" has an interesting
example of what can happen. 

"V1098. Offog, one."

(You can find the story in "the Hugo Winners, Volume I")

And there's a bit in "Starship Troopers" about what happens when you
fail to doublecheck the inventory before taking over from someone.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 05:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 10 04:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
Message-ID: <200208101154.MLV00593@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson says
>So? The effect (left or right) still *has* a cause (the 
observation). 
>
>So *global* causality is upheld. Local isn't.
>

The problem is that the photon changed course billions of 
years ago, before the Earth existed, before people existed, 
before the detector existed.  But the act of observing forces 
a change - a change that takes place before the observation.

It's as though an observation in the present writes the past, 
which is what Wheeler talks about.  Results preceding the 
initiating action.  Wheeler says in one of his books that the 
act of observing writes and decides the past - it's not 
really observing, since by changing the methods of 
observation, we can get a different result.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 06:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 10 05:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] warship optimization in traveller - more
Message-ID: <200208101200.MLV00743@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson says
>Even so, anything that can make an FGMP or air raft fusion 
>plant work, could probably make a "pure" fusion bomob that 
>wasn't overly huge. Say the size of an early atomic bomb. 

Fusion weapons without fission triggers are under 
consideration now.  Work was done in Poland as early as 1976 
on a biconical shaped charge and tritium gas that achieved a 
nominal fusion result.  The development was intended to 
produce a torpedo warhead - the prototype device was small 
enough to fit on a tabletop.

Probably the closest thing today would be magnetized target 
fusion.  You'll need a plasma source, and a power source much 
smaller than you might think, because once the plasma is 
initially confined, the final compression can be done by 
explosives.

The work on non-fission devices has a primary design goal of 
very small packages, very small yields.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 06:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sat Aug 10 05:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Uthe
In-Reply-To: <20020810065021.7C9C72793A@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <3.0.6.32.20020809211618.00a919f0@minn.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020810071405.00a98100@minn.net>

At 01:50 AM 8/10/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>On 08/09/02 at 09:16 PM,  Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net> said:
>
>>At 09:28 PM 8/9/2002 EDT, GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:
>>>Les writes:
>>>
>>>>Where can I find UWP stats for the Uthe subsector? Canon if possible.
>
>>>That would be in Foreven Sector? Canon for the entire sector comprises one 
>>>set, out of many, of subsector names, world *positions* and about seven
>>world 
>>>UWPs. That's it. Foreven was set aside (other than the above) as "not to
be 
>>>officially developed" by GDW late in the MT days.  The handfull of
official 
>>>bits were published in Imperiallines #1. Some details beyond this can be 
>>>found in the CT adventures in that sector.
>
>>Sorry, I believe that you are incorrect.
>
>>If I recall correctly the Foreven sector is spinward of the Spinward
>>Marches. The Uthe subsector is shown in Supplement 3 as being
>>immediately coreward of the Regina subsector. 
>
>Gvurrdon Sector/Subsector O -- Uthe
>
> I go to <http://zho.berka.com/data/CLASSIC/> for my OTU data needs.
><g>
>
>Eris
>-- 
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
>http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     My new first rule of advanced weapon testing: Make a backup 
copy of yourself before opening fire.
     --Kevyn, Schlock Mercenary, August 10, 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 06:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 10 05:15:03 2002
Subject: Armor Schemes (was: Re: [TML] mines)
Message-ID: <200208101214.MLV01175@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>Half a million points of armour is really just
>getting silly (and infeasible).  :/

If I'm the commander, and the bridge is armored that much 
more heavily than the rest of the ship, that's great - the 
rest of the ship can be blown completely away, but I'm going 
to survive the battle, tumbling end over end in what's left 
of the bridge.

If we have some backup power inside the bridge itself, we can 
make tea while waiting for the boarding party - or the second 
salvo.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 06:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sat Aug 10 05:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <20809.201248.7O9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <200208091312.MKB02981@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D55B66B.29635.222212@localhost>

On 9 Aug 2002, at 20:12, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> > the problem is that the nature of the observation will force 
> > a photon to the left or the right - an observation that is 
> > taken perhaps a billion years after the photon departed. 

> So? The effect (left or right) still *has* a cause (the observation). 

No, the effect that caused the proton to turn left or right was gravity and did 
occur billions of years ago. The observation is the effect that turns one of 
the two possibilities into reality. Up until the observation, both of the 
possibilities "exist" as probabilities, but the act of observation forces the 
universe to pick one.

> So *global* causality is upheld. Local isn't.

Both local and global causality are upheld.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 07:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 10 06:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 Lite
Message-ID: <609ee3606edd.606edd609ee3@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: James Ramsay <quakers_united@yahoo.com.au>
Date: Thursday, July 25, 2002 5:08 am
Subject: RE: [TML] T20 Lite

<<snip>>

 Which brings me to another point, is there any
> version of Trav where denser atmospheres affect
> lasers. Would this be a noticeable affect in RL.

FF&S2 for T4 has a table to calculate the effect of various atmosphere 
types on laser fire (my copy is in my barracks room, else I'd quote the 
table).  I suspect that FF&S (for TNE) also has this feature.

Sorry if someone already answered this; I'm still trying to catch up on 
a couple thousand TML posts....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 07:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sat Aug 10 06:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Uthe
In-Reply-To: <20020810065021.7C9C72793A@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <3.0.6.32.20020809211618.00a919f0@minn.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020810084457.00a92520@minn.net>

At 01:50 AM 8/10/2002 -0500, Eris Reddoch wrote:

>Gvurrdon Sector/Subsector O -- Uthe
>
> I go to <http://zho.bekka.com/data/CLASSIC/> for my OTU data needs.
><g>
>
>Eris

Actually it's <http://zho.berka.com/data/CLASSIC/>

The maps aree in ASCII, which is really neat. 

Thank you.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     My new first rule of advanced weapon testing: Make a backup 
copy of yourself before opening fire.
     --Kevyn, Schlock Mercenary, August 10, 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 08:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat Aug 10 07:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <20810.032526.5d5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <003c01c23dc2$11fe1850$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <3D55CFD9.21732.1B01A6F@localhost>

On 10 Aug 2002 at 3:25, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
> 
> > Eric Frank Russell never became as famous as many of the other Hugo
> > Winners, but some of his novels have recently been re-issued and are
> > available at Amazon(1). Shadow Man: The life and works of Eric Frank
> > Russell(2) is a good fan site. For some reviews of some of Russell's
> > other works, visit this site(3).
> 
> I hope the re-issue "The Great Explosion". Or a book containing all the
> stories from it. 
> 
> It has some *very* odd societies that any Traveller referree can swipe
> to put on Earthlike worlds. 

I always liked "Stronger than a thousand Gands, and smoother than an 
Earthman's downfall" from that book.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 09:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 08:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <m365ymsna4.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20810.073205.2D4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> "Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> writes:
>> 
>> At the current rates of extinction, somewhere between every six
>> months and two years (depending on which biologist you listen to) we
>> destroy one undiscovered medicine.
>
> We destroy one natural source of an undiscovered medicine, perhaps.
> But we can synthesise just about anything these days.  My best friend
> is a biochemist (well, almost--getting his PhD in a year), and if I
> remember our conversations correctly, most biochemistry these days is
> _not_ `oh, some old wives' tale says this is good; let's try it,' but
> rather `let's see which substances we can squeeze through _this_
> barrier,' i.e. it's pretty much known what most substances are going
> to do; the trick is to get them through cell walls, preserve them
> until they hit the right parts of the body, keep them from hitting the
> wrong parts.

Either he was simplifying things for you or you missed an important
detail.

We know what certain types of molecules do. And we have a good idea of
what making changes to them *might* do.

The reason we need to keep searching is because we are a *long* way
from being able to tell *in advance* what a new molecular structure
might do. 

The number of possible organic molecule structures is sufficiently huge
that checking for biological effects of natural compounds is *much*
faster than trying to synthesize things at "random". 

> The company he's interning with essentially takes a patented molecule,
> developes a thousand variations on it, and sells those variations back
> to the original patenter, IIRC.

Right. They are trying *variations* on molecules that are known to have
desireable biological effects. Partly to improve effectiveness, partly
to lessen undesirable side effects.

But that's a long ways from coming up with "original" molecular
structures that have desirable properties from scratch.

The way cells work is not something we understand at the required level
of detail. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 09:06:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 08:06:19 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <p04330109b977629d272b@[198.123.22.179]>
Message-ID: <20810.074124.2A3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>Sufficiently advanced technology makes life on an airless
>>rockball possible - why would such a species need to preserve
>>its wildlife?
>
> Well, if we assume that the airless rockball is totally self 
> suficient (not just sufficient over a timescale of week or months) I 
> see two reasons...
>
> 1) Economics, a natural ecosystem maintains itself (and hence is a 
> lot cheaper).
> 2) Comfort, just because the rockball is livable, doesn't mean it 
> produces everything people would want.

Also, if a planet *isn't* an airless rockball, but is moderately
livable, killing off the wrong thing (or introducing the wrong thing)
may screw up the ecosystem faster than you can build life support for
the current population, much less evacuate them.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 09:06:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 08:06:38 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020807171434.GA26680@mimosa.hut.fi>
Message-ID: <20810.074416.5U2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 09:26:27AM -0600, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
>> > At the current rates of extinction, somewhere between every six
>> > months and two years (depending on which biologist you listen to) we
>> > destroy one undiscovered medicine.
>> 
>> We destroy one natural source of an undiscovered medicine, perhaps.
>> But we can synthesise just about anything these days.  
>
> Well, yes, but wouldn't it be a bit easier to synthesise a compound if
> you had it beforehand, instead of trying to duplicate the effects from
> an old tale?

More to the point, unless we already *have* a compound that shows
effects similar to those we want, we mostly have no idea how to design
a molecule to produce a given effect.

>
> -- 
> Mikko Parviainen
> "I quote signatures."
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 09:06:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 08:06:53 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Dehumanization (long)
In-Reply-To: <m37kj2r2wf.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20810.074619.7G6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> "Mikko V.I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi> writes:
>>
>> > We destroy one natural source of an undiscovered medicine,
>> > perhaps.  But we can synthesise just about anything these days.
>> 
>> Well, yes, but wouldn't it be a bit easier to synthesise a compound
>> if you had it beforehand, instead of trying to duplicate the effects
>> from an old tale?
>
> But that's the point: as I understand it we've pretty well exhausted
> the use of old tales and have moved on.  Not that I discount the
> possibility that a remarkable new medicine could be lurking in the
> rainforest; simply that I discount the probability.
>
> As I understand it, science understand the effects of most substances:

We understand the effects of the substances we *know*. As in we know
*what* eefects they have. In many cases we aren't always sure *why*. 

> the trick is to get them where they're needed and not where they're
> not.  Which means designing a molecule which will let a drug slip
> through one barrier but not another.  Which is tricky.

That's true.

We just plain *can't* design a molecule from scratch to have a *new*
effect. We don't understand the inner working of the cell well enough.

We do have a fair amount of understandng of the cell membranes now.
Enough that we have some idea as to what changes might make a molecule
get thru more easily. But even then we have to try them, because we
don't know if the changes will compromise the therapeutic effects.

It does little good to get a variant that gets inside easily if in the
process we make it quit doing what we wanted it to do once it gets
there. Or if we add a nasty side effect.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 09:07:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 08:07:10 2002
Subject: [TML] John Beats The Dead Horse of Imperial Rules Of War...
In-Reply-To: <OFB4C576D0.DD4913B9-ONCA256C0F.00177D95@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20810.075328.3g6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I believe that mercenaries, available and used in the standard way that 
> Trav says they are used, would only be possible under the canonical "Rules 
> of War" scheme. That is, with merc troops being recognised as legitimate 
> forces, with repatriation bonds, etc. Exactly what David Drake writes 
> about - I'm sure he must have cribbed a bit from Traveller.

Actually, Traveller borrowed that from him if I recall correctly.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 09:07:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 10 08:07:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <OFBDFF848E.6EC3E744-ONCA256C0E.0009E3EB@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20810.075757.1b1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Dear Folks -
>
> Leonard wrote:
>>If we can't follow our own laws except when it is convenient, we are
>>all at the mercy of anybody in a position of authorty.
>
> Welcome to the "rule of men, not laws".

Which is why the Imperium is an interesting place to play in, but not
necessarily to live in.

> BTW, did you receive the Straker Theme I sent over?

Yes, I haven't gotten around to extracting the files yet.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 09:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 10 08:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Uthe
Message-ID: <43.fb9fa6e.2a868beb@aol.com>

In a message dated 8/10/02 5:14:55 AM, tml-request@travellercentral.com 
writes:

>>>>>Where can I find UWP stats for the Uthe subsector? Canon if possible.
>>
>>>>That would be in Foreven Sector? Canon for the entire sector comprises
>one 
>>>>set, out of many, of subsector names, world *positions* and about seven
>>>world 
>>>>UWPs. That's it. Foreven was set aside (other than the above) as "not
>to
>be 
>>>>officially developed" by GDW late in the MT days.  The handfull of
>official 
>>>>bits were published in Imperiallines #1. Some details beyond this can
>be 
>>>>found in the CT adventures in that sector.
>>
>>>Sorry, I believe that you are incorrect.
>>
>>>If I recall correctly the Foreven sector is spinward of the Spinward
>>>Marches. The Uthe subsector is shown in Supplement 3 as being
>>>immediately coreward of the Regina subsector. 
>>
>>Gvurrdon Sector/Subsector O -- Uthe

Ah, of course. Teach me (tho' probably not) to go from memory instead of 
looking it up.  Canon info for Gvurrdon comes from the original CT Vargr 
module, as well as the DGP version for MT. Not a lot to be had, but the CT 
module has the complete map and sector listing (sans names) in the back. 
Tidbits appear elsewhere, I'm sure. Since this IS Vargr space, you may want 
to generate two sets of world names: one for what the Imperium calls a world 
on its charts, and sporadic name changes for some worlds to reflect the Vargr 
tendency to impermanence. I'm sure there's a name set already out there on 
the net somewhere...

As for the Foreven info, while not entirely relevant, it IS something that 
needs to be restated periodically.

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 10:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 10 09:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
In-Reply-To: <232810-22002859195212613@M2W075.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810092517.009fa210@mindspring.com>

At 03:52 PM 8/9/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
>
> >Most of the sound associated with weapons fire is the sound of the powder
> >going off.  The crack of the bullet is negligible.  For example, a silenced
> >.22LR is nearly silent in operation.
>
>Oh, come on, Doug.  You and I both know they're louder than that.
>While you certainly don't need hearing protection around one, they
>sound about like a large balloon being popped.  Even in an open
>outdoor area, I can hear one fire over 50 yds. away.  Now, if
>subsonic ammo is being used, it's a whole different story.

I saw a demonstration of a .22LR bolt-action pistol.  From five feet away I 
could barely detect the crack of the round.  Had I been downrange trying to 
determine where that shooter was, I would have been up a famous creek 
having mislaid my paddle.

> >A 4mm gauss round would make a high pitched *crack* audible only to
> > those near the flight path.
>
>With "near" probably meaning within 200 meters.  (This assumes a
>calm, clear day, across level terrain and with no significant
>background noise to mask the shot.)

Hmm.. I think 200m is a bit far, but unless one of is volunteering to crawl 
across the mud at your rifle club while the other fires suppresed rounds 
overehead...


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 10:53:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 10 09:53:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
In-Reply-To: <200208092111.MKR04077@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810092937.009f60f0@mindspring.com>

At 05:11 PM 8/9/02 -0400, you wrote:

>On a side note, I used to call the M-16 (without a
>suppressor) the Orville Redenbacher, because at a distance,
>it sounds like popcorn in the microwave.  Never really
>sounded like a real weapon to me.

 From what I understand, that made life in Vietnam a bit easier for the 
grunts.  If it sounds like a real weapon, it's our good friend Charles.  If 
it sounds like a toy gun, it's friendlies.

>I can't imagine lasers making any noise at all, unless you
>hit someone.  And if they aren't in the visible light range
>(ideal transmission is apparently in the near infrared for
>work in Earth's atmosphere), you won't see the near miss
>either.

I always gave them a very quiet hiss as the beam incinerated dust/water 
vapor in the beam path.  Any noise at all drowns it out.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 11:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug 10 10:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810092517.009fa210@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B97A97EE.69295%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/10/02 9:29 AM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:

>> Oh, come on, Doug.  You and I both know they're louder than that.
>> While you certainly don't need hearing protection around one, they
>> sound about like a large balloon being popped.  Even in an open
>> outdoor area, I can hear one fire over 50 yds. away.  Now, if
>> subsonic ammo is being used, it's a whole different story.
>=20
> I saw a demonstration of a .22LR bolt-action pistol.  From five feet away=
 I
> could barely detect the crack of the round.  Had I been downrange trying =
to
> determine where that shooter was, I would have been up a famous creek
> having mislaid my paddle.

That is the great advantage of the suppressed, supersonic round.  Even
though it makes noise, it is difficult if not impossible to locate the
shooter.  Particularly since the ballistic crack reflects off objects as th=
e
bullet passes them, making the source of the sound that much more
complicated to identify.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 11:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 10 10:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
In-Reply-To: <000001c2403c$3dbce440$8bdad63f@customer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810093741.009f6d90@mindspring.com>

At 03:03 AM 8/10/02 -0400, you wrote:

>So, my above statements don't accurately reflect the point that I was trying
>to make.  When I talk about the rules sets not meshing, I mean that how
>things work is different from rules set to rules set so that your not able
>to do some things in one rules set that you could with another rules set.
>This doesn't allow for much meaningful discussion of how things work between
>people who are using different rules sets.

Different designers, different design philosophies.  The economic rules 
were always geared to support the small independent trader.  Trying to 
develop the actual level of trade using rules in Merchant Prince or 
MegaTraveller while give bad results.

I avoid mechanic discussions like the plague.  I write for GURPS.  I *try* 
to make my stuff accessible to other players as well, but the mechanics 
will be different.  (Hell, the last Traveller game I actually played in was 
run under CORPS.)

>As for the OTU, I was blissfully happy with it until I joined the TML.  It's
>the various threads on 'How This doesn't work' and 'How does That really
>work?' that have led me to the conclusion that there's something not quite
>right with the OTU.

Of course there is something wrong!  It was designed piece by piece over 
the course of the last 25 years by dozens of different people working for 
different companies and with very different agendas.  It's history by 
committee.  There will be holes all over the place.  That's one of the 
things we do here is fill those holes, hence the current discussion of 
topics like the Fifth Frontier War and Arbellatra.  I can only speak for 
myself, but some of what it said here finds its way both into my games and 
my pay copy.

>Frankly I don't know why I'm making such a fuss.  I've always believed that
>I should do what I want IMTU and I should let everybody else do what they
>want in their TU's.  The OTU is vague enough to allow for many different
>interpretations.  Maybe it was designed to be that way on purpose.

Which is a healthy attitude.  After Ground Forces came out, i received a 
*scathing* email from a customer who quite literally told me he was going 
to complain to Steve Jackson and Marc Miller, through my book in the 
furnace, and demand that I never be hired to write another word for 
Traveller because I was a complete moron who obviously was out to ruin the 
entire game.  Why?

Because I put the Marines into kilts as part of their full dress 
uniform.  One paragraph, in a sidebar.  I wrote the person back and asked 
if he like the rest of the book, and if so, why didn't he ignore it?  I put 
it in for a reason, but if it makes him that mad, simply take a black 
Sharpie and line through the offending phrase.  Simple.  He actually wrote 
back saying that since it was in the book it meant that he *had* to do 
it.  I gave him official aithor dispensation to not have Marines in 
kilts.  Put 'em in clown suits for all I care.

Everything published, or written here, is subject to the interpetation and 
judgement of each player and referee.  Use what you want, change what you 
like, ignore that which annoys you.  This was part of the reason I 
suggested the Landgrab.. get involvement from people so we could see their 
views of this universe.  Nobody *has* to use them, but they make for some 
interesting data points.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 11:23:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 10 10:23:23 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
In-Reply-To: <20020810004141.99222.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810095614.00a07cf0@mindspring.com>

At 05:41 PM 8/9/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
> >The also ran into a wild card: Norris.  You can't predict an
> >unexpected enemy commander that is a bloody genius and has figured
> >out your plan.  I always wondered if Norris' branch of Naval
> >Intelligence hadn't actually learned bits and pieces of the Zhodani
> >plan.
>
>and then failed to disclose those bits and pieces to Sector Admiral
>Santanocheev, to destroy his credibility before the Emperor, and to
>allow the advance of other members of the INI cabal ... how paranoid
>are we?

Oh, I always know Norris was a bit of a Napoleon.  Let's see.  His elder 
brother dies, and he becomes Duke of Regina.  Santocheev, a pompous 
incompetent twit, has information held back by Norris' faction of Naval 
Intelligence, piddles all over himself and is removed in disgrace, allowing 
Norris to become a war hero.  Norris becomes Archduke.  Just me, or do I 
hear Strephon telling Norris "rid me of this bothersome Admiral."


> >The Zho's over-reached themselves, in my opinion.  They didn't
> >properly understand the strength of the Imperium's "defense in
> >depth" concept, nor the tenacity of local forces.
>
>Shtaliajtlas was an idiot, actually, who had not run enough
>simulations to know how to get and hold 300 points before the
>Imperium could react and start rolling the Zhodanis back.

We always played with the optional rules that capitals and high-pop worlds 
were both worth double VP.  Jewell and Rhylanor, 54 and 60VP respectively, 
were juicy targets.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption
abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every
man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the
end of the world is fast approaching."
- Assyrian Tablet, c.2800 BC




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 11:23:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 10 10:23:43 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810100309.00a046b0@mindspring.com>

Way OT, but as a hardcore Giants fan, I just gotta brag.

Last night, Barry Bonds hit his 600th career home run.  Next target: 661.

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
- Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 11:58:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat Aug 10 10:58:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Uthe
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020810084457.00a92520@minn.net>
Message-ID: <20020810175718.96C472793A@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/10/02 at 08:44 AM,  Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net> said:

>At 01:50 AM 8/10/2002 -0500, Eris Reddoch wrote:

>>Gvurrdon Sector/Subsector O -- Uthe
>>
>> I go to <http://zho.bekka.com/data/CLASSIC/> for my OTU data needs.
>><g>
>>
>>Eris

>Actually it's <http://zho.berka.com/data/CLASSIC/>

Oops! That's what I get for sending a post at 0150. <g> 

>The maps aree in ASCII, which is really neat. 

What's neatest, to me, is the data is available in Galactic format, so
I can download them directly to the proper directories and I've (more
or less) added another sector to my copy of the program.  But, yes,
the perl scripts that produce the ascii maps are neat, as are the java
programs. I'd love to see the code!

>Thank you.

You are welcome, but most of your thanks should go to the list owner.

Eris

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 12:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Aug 10 11:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <F52sKj9cMXF1UVkCUVP00005065@hotmail.com>

From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

     Way OT, but as a hardcore Giants fan, I just gotta brag.

     Last night, Barry Bonds hit his 600th career home run.  Next target: 
661.


Mr. Berry,

     With the "Say Hey Kid" as your godfather, you BETTER hit 600 plus!
     Now that the Olde Town Team is well into their patented summer swoon, 
following Mr. Bonds has given me great pleasure of late.  He hit one a few 
weeks ago that went so far there should have been a stewardess on it!
     Oops, gotta go, Hillenbrand just hit a double and the Flops have jumped 
out ahead of the amazin' Twins (downsize THIS Selig!).  With Pedro on the 
mound, one run might be all the Flops need.  Since the All-Star break, it 
seems Martinez can throw a porkchop past a wolf.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen E. "Goddam Red Sox!" Whipsnade

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 12:07:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 10 11:07:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
Message-ID: <200208101806.MMH01558@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry says

>Hmm.. I think 200m is a bit far, but unless one of is 
>volunteering to crawl across the mud at your rifle club 
>while the other fires suppresed rounds overehead...

Had an interesting day a long time ago.  We were at Range 14, 
one of the few known distance ranges at Ft. Campbell, in 
1988.  We took turns shooting an M-21 with suppressor.  While 
the shooter fired rounds in slow fire, we walked along the 
side berm, eventually moving from 100 meters directly behind 
the firer, to 100 meters directly to the right, then moving 
along the right berm, up to the 300 yard berm, moving along 
behind the berm as the rounds went overhead, and back down 
along the left berm.  The change in delay between thump of 
weapon and crack of bullet was extremely instructive.  If 
there are any other echo generating surfaces around, off axis 
between shooter and target, it's very confusing as to where 
things are.

There is still a thump from the weapon (muzzle noise), and 
there's more of a crack from a supersonic 7.62 than we later 
heard from a M-16 round.  I might note that the more modern 
suppressor we saw on the M-16 was a lot better than the 
ancient thing on the M-21.

Tod may shed some light on it, but there didn't seem to be a 
way to take apart the newer models of these things.  They 
didn't have relief valves, either.  On the old suppressor, 
you could see how the front plate of the suppressor was 
screwed in - and how you could possibly remove it.  The 
suppressor (unidentified) that I saw on the M-16 was fatter, 
shorter, and had no obvious means of dismantling it.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 12:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Sat Aug 10 11:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F163A@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Good idea!  Hadn't really thought of that one (yet).  I'll add it to the list of Famille Spofulam stuff I'm working on.
Jesse

> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com [mailto:shadow@krypton.rain.com]
> Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 1:13 AM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
> 
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > I'd been thinking about this for a while, too. A copyright 
> question that I 
> > don't know the answer to is, "Is it 'fair use' if I put a 
> Jesse picture on 
> > ONE T-Shirt for my own use?"
> 
> Actually, given *some* of us in this group, an "I <heart> HE" shirt
> like Ditzie's might do well, and could be sold to the mainstream.
> 
> Which reminds me:
> 
> http://jokeworm.com/AToons/AT280.jpg
> 
> -- 
> Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 12:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug 10 11:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
In-Reply-To: <200208101806.MMH01558@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B97AAB5A.692AC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/10/02 11:06 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> Tod may shed some light on it, but there didn't seem to be a
> way to take apart the newer models of these things.  They
> didn't have relief valves, either.  On the old suppressor,
> you could see how the front plate of the suppressor was
> screwed in - and how you could possibly remove it.  The
> suppressor (unidentified) that I saw on the M-16 was fatter,
> shorter, and had no obvious means of dismantling it.

One of the 'features' of modern suppressors from the big name vendors (AWC,
Gemtech, etc) is that they are sealed.  This is mainly for two reasons.  Th=
e
first (the one the vendor gives) is to keep precision components in
alignment and free from damage.  But the main reason is to protect
proprietary designs.  They don't want you to see how they work, and most
people aren't going to cut apart a $500 dollar, registered suppressor just
to find out.

For the military, this is not an issue.  A suppressor is a disposable item.
For the civilian user, this is another matter.  Suppressors are registered,
and sending them back for service is a bureaucratic nightmare.  Suppressors
do get dirty, and do require cleaning.  IMHO, a suppressor that cannot be
stripped for cleaning is just asking for trouble.  My own designs are simpl=
e
to disassemble, and while not as efficient as some of the 'big name'
suppressors, are infinitely easier to maintain.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 12:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug 10 11:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Stripmime
In-Reply-To: <20809.034100.0C2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <B97AAB99.692AD%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/9/02 4:41 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:

> In mail you write:
>=20
>> Someone on the TML kindly modified Stripmime to allow messages without a
>> content type to get posted on the list (A fix for Leonard).  If that per=
son
>> still has a copy, could they please contact me.  I've lost the original =
that
>> you sent me.
>=20
> If it runs on Intel family CPUs under DOS, Windoze, or OS/2, I'd be
> interested in a copy..

It's written in perl.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 13:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Sat Aug 10 12:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <F52sKj9cMXF1UVkCUVP00005065@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020810190015.25320.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>

> From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
> 
>      Way OT, but as a hardcore Giants fan, I just
> gotta brag.
> 
>      Last night, Barry Bonds hit his 600th career
> home run.  Next target: 
> 661.

Only one of four players in the 600+ club.  It is
truly amazing, but my favorite comment was...

"As amazing as it is, he is still 155 away from Hank. 
Sorta puts Hank's achievement in perspective."

I was really glad for Barry.  Hopefully he can break
615 or 620 this year and stick around for a couple
more and get close to 755.

(BTW, my second favorite line was by Barry himself
giving Nenn his dues and asking the reporters if he
could go home the night he hit 599.)

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 13:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 10 12:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
Message-ID: <6b20b06ad2b2.6ad2b26b20b0@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Date: Saturday, August 10, 2002 7:29 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...

> At 03:52 PM 8/9/02 -0400, you wrote:

<<snip\..
> >
> >With "near" probably meaning within 200 meters.  (This assumes a
> >calm, clear day, across level terrain and with no significant
> >background noise to mask the shot.)
> 
> Hmm.. I think 200m is a bit far, but unless one of is volunteering 
> to crawl 
> across the mud at your rifle club while the other fires suppresed 
> rounds 
> overehead...

Well, if I can ever make it to an Oregon shoot (IOW, if I can avoid yet 
another mobilization long enough to make it up there), I'll volunteer.  
After all, as a paratrooper, I've been taught that I'm very 
bullet-resistant. ;-)

Of course, given my MOS and assigned (_not_ chosen!) target language, 
that could be a couple of decades from now.... :-(


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 14:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 10 13:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <6b60e36b77b9.6b77b96b60e3@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Date: Saturday, August 10, 2002 8:04 pm
Subject: [TML] OT: Barry Bonds

> Way OT, but as a hardcore Giants fan, I just gotta brag.
> 
> Last night, Barry Bonds hit his 600th career home run.  Next 
> target: 661.

Who cares [*].  Barry Bonds will _still_ never be fit to wash Big Mac's 
skivvies.... ;-)

ObTrav: Change the game from baseball to gravball, change the names from 
Mark McGwire and Barry Bonds to something a bit more Travelleresque (or 
not), and you can use the "who's greater?" discussion practically 
verbatim.

[*] Says someone who definitively bleeds Cardinals Red [**].... ;-)

[**] Although I do indeed bleed Cardinals Red when sliced and/or diced, 
I prefer to keep my blood going round and round, rather than spurting 
out in great gouts....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 14:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 10 13:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <200208102021.MML01580@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Paul Walker says
>"As amazing as it is, he is still 155 away from Hank. 
>Sorta puts Hank's achievement in perspective."

I'm waiting for the genetically modified players to come out.

Mind you, I might be 80 years old when that happens.

Then, baseball as we know it will be over, and the far future 
will have begun.

________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 14:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 10 13:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
Message-ID: <200208102027.MMM00032@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

john.groth@us.army.mil  says
>Of course, given my MOS and assigned (_not_ chosen!) target 
>language, that could be a couple of decades from now.... :-(

Just stay above ground.  Every day above ground is a good 
day.  Learning the language is not going to be the hard part 
in the future of RL.  There are just some really wicked NPCs 
out and about...

I didn't find modern hebrew that difficult to learn on my 
own.  I think it would be easier to learn to speak Arabic 
than to read it (I've a smattering of Chinese, but it's all 
conversational - I can't read at all).

Then there's the ancient stuff - the old hebrew and aramaic - 
but if you're a gearhead, this sort of stuff is interesting.

It could be worse.  Imagine trying to find some place alone 
in the barracks so you can practice your Vargr.  Or maybe 
while you're the SDNCO, it's 0200, and you figure you can 
just start barking...

So, was Donald Sutherland speaking Vargr when he played 
Oddball in Kelly's Heroes?
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 14:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 10 13:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day
Message-ID: <200208102032.MMN00082@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Groth has another long night as SDNCO.  Routine, and 
routinely boring.  After all, Imperial peacekeeping duty on 
Garda-Vilis has been going on for over 20 years....

Still, he's trying to keep sharp, and learn new skills.  He's 
hoping to improve his language skill in Vargr.

The corporal sitting next to him is engrossed in the latest 
military tri-D.  Groth goes into the battalion office - 
hopefully he can keep this private.

Unbeknownst to Groth, the S3 is keeping a late night, and 
comes around to the office area.  Groth, engrossed in his 
woofing, doesn't notice the major looking at him.

The major clears his throat.  He knows Groth is working hard, 
but he's never gotten used to the idea of men growling and 
barking like dogs. 

"Carry on, sergeant."

________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 14:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Sat Aug 10 13:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Fire, Fusion, & Steel (TNE version) Thruster question
Message-ID: <20020810204013.8336.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>

No, I'm not gonna ask about T-plates and HEPlaR. ;)

I'm trying to design my very first Missile.  The
EAPlaC is driving me nuts.  The text says (pg 70, top
column 2):

** The values shown for the EAPlaC and fusion rockets
are the _minimum_ thrust ratings per engine.

The number in the table for EAPlaC is 100.  So does
that mean that I have to design the Solid Rocket Fuel
Propulsion part of the missile to handle 100 Tonnes of
thrust?  That (if I'm reading right) would be an
additional mass of 30 tonnes to my tiny missile!?!?!?!

Arggg.  If someone who loves this stuff would be
willing to talk me through the entire design off list,
I'd really appreciate it.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 16:03:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sat Aug 10 15:03:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Settlement date of Vilis
In-Reply-To: <20020810050803.5872.3294.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208102340010.8945-100000@ask.diku.dk>

John T. Kwon writes:
>The Sword Worlds had their first interstellar government, the
>Sacnoth Dominate, in -186, and lasting to -102, when
>rebellion broke it up.

Do you have a subscription to JTAS Online? If so, you may want to take a
look at two capaign settings I've written about the Sacnoth Dominate and
the Five States Era (the period between the rise of new interstellar
societies following the devastation of the War of the First Rebellion and
the formation of the Triple Dominion).

>Garda-Vilis is supposedly settled in -121 as Tanoose.

-121 according to _Broadsword_, -120 according to _Regency Sourcebook_. I
myself goes with the first date. The settlement fails after a few decades.

>I am presuming that Vilis itself is settled before -121.

No, Vilis isn't settled until 240[*]. It is settled from Gungnir.
Garda-Vilis, as it is renamed, is 'settled' from Vilis in 290. Just what
happens isn't clear, but this is the period of the 'Squabbling States' (my
term[**]) which lies between the fall of the Triple Dominion in 217 and
the formation of the military government that unites the Sword Worlds at
the beginning of the 1st Frontier War, so I don't think it will be
difficult to come up with some military or economic upset that makes
Tanoose vulnerable to Vilisian military adventurism. Though Vilis will
need to be an unusually well-organized and unusually successful colony
venture in order to grow to a point where it can impose its will on a
long-established world in just 50 years.

[*] In 300 the Sword Worlds are divided into five interstellar states, in
    400 nine, in 500 eight, and in 589 five.

John T. Kwon writes:

>I'm putting the settlement date of Vilis down as -240, some time before
>the Sacnoth Dominate, and the colonists leaving from Gungnir.
>
>Any thoughts?

See above.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 16:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 10 15:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Settlement date of Vilis
Message-ID: <200208102222.MMP01599@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen says
>No, Vilis isn't settled until 240[*]. It is settled from 
>Gungnir.
>Garda-Vilis, as it is renamed, is 'settled' from Vilis in 
>290. Just what happens isn't clear, but this is the period 
>of the 'Squabbling States' (my term[**]) which lies between 
>the fall of the Triple Dominion in 217 and the formation of 
>the military government that unites the Sword Worlds at
>the beginning of the 1st Frontier War, so I don't think it 
>will be difficult to come up with some military or economic 
>upset that makes Tanoose vulnerable to Vilisian military 
>adventurism. Though Vilis will need to be an unusually well-
>organized and unusually successful colony venture in order 
>to grow to a point where it can impose its will on a
>long-established world in just 50 years.


That's the problem I had with the positive 240 date.  It 
would have to be a societal miracle on the scale of the Meiji 
Period in real life.  Japan going from 16th to 20th century 
in 40 years - and being able to project credible military 
power at the end of that period.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 16:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug 10 15:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <3D558F56.25375.B1AA6F1@localhost>
References: <200208091312.MKB02981@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <3D558F56.25375.B1AA6F1@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020811082836.A12196@freeman.little-possums.net>

Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
> it then travels all potential paths to the observer in variant
> probabilities, the photon then arrives at earth where the act of
> observeration selects which of the variant probabilities becomes
> part of reality.

Or depending upon your interpretation, the observer's state is
correlated with the photon's state.  Some people hold that the act of
observation has no special privileges in determining reality. :)


> See, no violation of causality (a splitting headache maybe, but no
> violation of causality)

Yes; whichever interpretation you adopt, there is no causality
violation.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 16:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug 10 15:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <200208101154.MLV00593@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208101154.MLV00593@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020811083334.B12196@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> But the act of observing forces a change - a change that takes place
> before the observation.

As I understand it, that particular interpretation isn't widely held
among physicists these days.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 16:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug 10 15:53:02 2002
Subject: Armor Schemes (was: Re: [TML] mines)
In-Reply-To: <200208101214.MLV01175@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208101214.MLV01175@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020811085247.C12196@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> If we have some backup power inside the bridge itself, we can make
> tea while waiting for the boarding party - or the second salvo.

I did specify that the jump coils were protected too -- pity the fuel
wasn't.  It's mainly useful if your side survives the engagement,
because you can probably rebuild around the jump drive even if the
rest of the ship is fubar.

Just out of interest, half a million points of advanced TL12 ablative
armour around a command bridge, and small power plant costs 25 MCr and
has a mass of 1400 tonnes.  Not completely infeasible, but massive
enough to impact performance.  The same amount of armour around a
jump-2 drive in a 10k dton ship would mass 20k tonnes and cost 340 MCr.
It would be protecting a 900 MCr piece of equipment.

If the rest of the ship is destroyed, it doesn't do you a lot of good
in a military sense.  If it isn't, you may well be able to activate
your working jump drive and get out of there before it is.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 16:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat Aug 10 15:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810095614.00a07cf0@mindspring.com>
References: <20020810004141.99222.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3D564265.28016.138F15@localhost>

On 10 Aug 2002 at 10:01, Douglas Berry wrote:

> >Shtaliajtlas was an idiot, actually, who had not run enough
> >simulations to know how to get and hold 300 points before the
> >Imperium could react and start rolling the Zhodanis back.
> 
> We always played with the optional rules that capitals and high-pop worlds 
> were both worth double VP.  Jewell and Rhylanor, 54 and 60VP respectively, 
> were juicy targets.

That would make going all the way to Regina more attractive, too.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 17:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat Aug 10 16:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Fire, Fusion, & Steel (TNE version) Thruster question
In-Reply-To: <20020810204013.8336.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3D5643D4.830.1928BE@localhost>

On 10 Aug 2002 at 13:40, Paul Walker wrote:

> No, I'm not gonna ask about T-plates and HEPlaR. ;)
> 
> I'm trying to design my very first Missile.  The
> EAPlaC is driving me nuts.  The text says (pg 70, top
> column 2):
> 
> ** The values shown for the EAPlaC and fusion rockets
> are the _minimum_ thrust ratings per engine.
> 
> The number in the table for EAPlaC is 100.  So does
> that mean that I have to design the Solid Rocket Fuel
> Propulsion part of the missile to handle 100 Tonnes of
> thrust?  That (if I'm reading right) would be an
> additional mass of 30 tonnes to my tiny missile!?!?!?!

Yes it means that the EAPlaC has to produce 100 tons of thrust. However 
note that there's no requirement for it to do so for very long. One of 
those mines I recently posted had a 500kg EAPlaC rocket producing 100 
tons of thrust for about 30 seconds (0.0167 of BL's 30-minute turns).
 
> Arggg.  If someone who loves this stuff would be
> willing to talk me through the entire design off list,
> I'd really appreciate it.

Well send me what you've done and I'll take a look. Missile design is 
fairly stright forward, as you don't have to buy a hull, etc.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 17:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sat Aug 10 16:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <20020808171316.15286.91204.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208110115150.11066-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Alan Bradley writes:
>Gratuitous nepotism goes a long way. I don't see any particular problem
>about [Arbellatra] taking over the family business, especially during the
>Civil War, when warlordism was rife.

My take is that she is herself at least a duchess (or at least the heir
apparent to one). And I think you're right that the pre-Civil War navy was
more subject to favoritism than the USN -- sorry, I mean the Classic Era
IN ;-).

>A good staff will cover a multitude of sins, especially if it includes
>people like Soegz. In fact, Soegz may have been the real genius.

Another candidate for the title 'The real Genius' is Arbellatra's flag
captain Kevin Alderon. So far he is only mentioned in one place, namely
"The Alderon Diary", an Amber Zone I wrote for PYRAMID some years ago (I
know some people do not count that as canonical). He was Arbellatra's flag
captain at the end of the 2nd Frontier War and followed her to the
Imperial Core where he eventually became Grand Admiral of the Fleets and
1st Space Lord. Upon Arbellatra's death in 666 he retired to Kinorb where
he lived out his remaining years in obscurity. About 50 years ago he was
immortalized by an author named D.T. Woodsman who wrote a semi-biographical
bestseller about him and followed up with a dozen sequels (All of which
have since been turned into smash holo-dramas).

Here is a list of book titles and short summaries thereof that I worked
out for the books. Bear in mind that while they are supposedly semi-
biographical, the emphasis is in some cases on the semi. I would not, for
instance, put much faith in the supposed first meeting between him and
Arbellatra ;-)

"Young Lord Alderon"    Lishun 586      Young Kevin Alderon decides to
  					join the Navy.

"Ensign Alderon"        Core 588        Kevin Alderon attends Naval
					Academy on Capital.
|
|Never written                          Sublieutenant Alderon.
|

"Lieutenant Alderon"    Vland 594       Lieutenant Alderon foils Vargr
					spys and meets a young vargr named
					Soegz.

"Liutenant Alderon      Corridor 596    Lieutenant  Alderon  battles Vargr
 and the Raiders"                       raiders along the Corridor border.

"Lt. Cmdr. Alderon"     Deneb 600

"Commander Alderon"     Sp. Mar. 604

"Commander Alderon      Sp. Mar. 605    A   brilliant  young  ensign named
 and the ensign"                        Arbellatra  serves  under Commander
                                        Alderon who promotes  her over the
					head of older ensigns.

"Commander Alderon      Tr. Rch. 613    Commander Alderon protects a client
 and the _ihatei_"                      state in the Outrim Void from Aslan
                                        settlers, eventually finding alter-
                                        native land for the Aslans.

"Captain Alderon"       Sp. Mar. 615    The outbreak of the Second Frontier
                                        War  brings Kevin Alderon his long-
                                        deserved promotion to captain.

"Captain Alderon's      Sp. Mar. 619    Alderon becomes Flag Captain to Ar-
 Flag"                                  bellatra, the newly-appointed Grand
                                        Admiral of the Marches.

Was Kevin Alderon no more than Arbellatra's faithful hatchetman or was he
the guiding hand behind her? Whoever eventually writes the Civil War
sourcebook will have to decide ;-D.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
------------
In my opinion it ought to go without saying that if you work in another
person's universe, he and anyone else authorized to work in said universe
is implicitly permitted to use your work as background material. But I
know it doesn't, so I hereby give my permission for Marc Miller and anyone
else authorized to work in the Traveller Universe to use the above as
background material.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 17:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sat Aug 10 16:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day
In-Reply-To: <200208102032.MMN00082@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020810183827.00a6c100@minn.net>

At 04:32 PM 8/10/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:

>Groth has another long night as SDNCO.  Routine, and 
>routinely boring.  After all, Imperial peacekeeping duty on 
>Garda-Vilis has been going on for over 20 years....
>
>Still, he's trying to keep sharp, and learn new skills.  He's 
>hoping to improve his language skill in Vargr.
>
>The corporal sitting next to him is engrossed in the latest 
>military tri-D.  Groth goes into the battalion office - 
>hopefully he can keep this private.
>
>Unbeknownst to Groth, the S3 is keeping a late night, and 
>comes around to the office area.  Groth, engrossed in his 
>woofing, doesn't notice the major looking at him.
>
>The major clears his throat.  He knows Groth is working hard, 
>but he's never gotten used to the idea of men growling and 
>barking like dogs. 
>
>"Carry on, sergeant."

I have to use this somehow.

Darn it.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     My new first rule of advanced weapon testing: Make a backup 
copy of yourself before opening fire.
     --Kevyn, Schlock Mercenary, August 10, 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 18:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat Aug 10 17:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208110115150.11066-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <20020808171316.15286.91204.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D56548D.12818.5A7CDF@localhost>

On 11 Aug 2002 at 1:34, Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> Alan Bradley writes:
> >Gratuitous nepotism goes a long way. I don't see any particular problem
> >about [Arbellatra] taking over the family business, especially during the
> >Civil War, when warlordism was rife.
> 
> My take is that she is herself at least a duchess (or at least the heir
> apparent to one). And I think you're right that the pre-Civil War navy was
> more subject to favoritism than the USN -- sorry, I mean the Classic Era
> IN ;-).

IMO the IN of CT is actually quite open to various forms of cronyism, 
nepotism, etc. It and the Marines are the two services where a good Soc 
improves your chances and, unlike the Marines, in the Navy your Soc can 
improve during service (all according to Book 1).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 18:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 10 17:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] smallcraft deckplans
Message-ID: <115.158c1370.2a87061b@aol.com>

at http://members.aol.com/exog/myhomepage/small.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 18:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Aug 10 17:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] smallcraft deckplans
In-Reply-To: <115.158c1370.2a87061b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020810201842.019119f8@192.168.0.1>

At 08:13 PM 8/10/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>at http://members.aol.com/exog/myhomepage/small.html

Nice, thanks!



----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Government does not cause affluence. Citizens of totalitarian
countries have plenty of government and nothing of anything
else." -- P. J. O'Rourke, EAT THE RICH
----------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 18:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sat Aug 10 17:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <3D55B1E8.DD9CA93@mail.cswnet.com>

Larsen writes:
>downsize THIS Selig!
A couple more games like todays and he just might take you up on the
offer.
Twinkies    0
Red Sox     2  Final
Since were on the subject, lets here it for the BIG UNIT!
Randy Johnson now 5th place in all-time strike outs!

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 10 20:32:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Aug 10 19:32:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Land grab webring
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020810223128.0203be30@mail.charter.net>

Any interest in a webring of landgrab sites?



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 00:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 10 23:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Land grab webring
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020810223128.0203be30@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810233001.009e15b0@mindspring.com>

At 10:31 PM 8/10/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Any interest in a webring of landgrab sites?

Yes!  It would encourage me to get a few planets put together and on the web.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 01:04:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Aug 11 00:04:05 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <6b60e36b77b9.6b77b96b60e3@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810233138.009e28a0@mindspring.com>

At 11:12 PM 8/10/02 +0300, you wrote:

>Who cares [*].  Barry Bonds will _still_ never be fit to wash Big Mac's
>skivvies.... ;-)

Big Mac? Sounds familiar..  Ah, yes.  The guy who has *2nd* place on the 
single-season home run record, and on all time..  576?  24 short, Bash-boy!

>ObTrav: Change the game from baseball to gravball, change the names from
>Mark McGwire and Barry Bonds to something a bit more Travelleresque (or
>not), and you can use the "who's greater?" discussion practically
>verbatim.

I once needed a bar brawl to break out, and put two guys discussing 
Rollerball in the corner.  Suddenly, I had one of the NPCs leap up and yell 
"The stinking '85 Dreadnaughts?  Stanton could've taken them sissies down 
single-handed!"  Rebuttal made by way of beer mug.

>[*] Says someone who definitively bleeds Cardinals Red [**].... ;-)

Could be worse, you could bleed Dodger (spit) Blue.

>[**] Although I do indeed bleed Cardinals Red when sliced and/or diced,
>I prefer to keep my blood going round and round, rather than spurting
>out in great gouts....

Yet he insults a Giant in my presence.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry   gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Cry "CHEEBLE!" and let slip the hamsters of war!



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 01:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Sun Aug 11 00:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Land grab webring
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810233001.009e15b0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPIEIFEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Looks good to me, especially as the Rockhead ring seems to be dead.

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
Sent: Sunday, 11 August 2002 2:31 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Land grab webring


At 10:31 PM 8/10/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Any interest in a webring of landgrab sites?

Yes!  It would encourage me to get a few planets put together and on the
web.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 01:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Sun Aug 11 00:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <200208101154.MLV00593@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <006a01c241a6$9af3ca00$1001a8c0@sauron>

John T. Kwon wrote :
> The problem is that the photon changed course billions of 
> years ago, before the Earth existed, before people existed, 
> before the detector existed.  But the act of observing forces 
> a change - a change that takes place before the observation.
> It's as though an observation in the present writes the past, 
> which is what Wheeler talks about.  Results preceding the 
> initiating action.  Wheeler says in one of his books that the 
> act of observing writes and decides the past - it's not 
> really observing, since by changing the methods of 
> observation, we can get a different result.

Wheeler is presuming that the physicists who make the 
observation have any choice in how or whether the 
observation is made.

The concept of "probablity" as described by Wheeler and 
quantum physics, is merely the latitude in the _model_, 
and in our current predictive tools. There is no latitude 
in the real world, merely in the tools we use to describe 
it.

Stating that "the probablility function collapses" or that 
the observation "causes" one probablility to become "real",
is just confusing the map with the territory. 
 
To look at it another way, the "problems" with causality 
are only problems because people are looking at the situation 
arse about face. From the point of view of the observer a 
billion years ago, eveything is completely predictable. 

_Because_ of the photon doing one thing now (in the past), 
it _will_ be observed at a particular time and place and manner 
in the future. 

A violation of causality will only occur if the physicists 
do _not_ make the observation. But they cannot fail to make 
the observation because they are part of the universe, and 
their actions have already been predestined by the particle 
action in the past.

Wheeler's argument is similar to asking you to accept the 
hypothesis that because you are now reading this mail, you 
are somehow influencing me to write it in the past, and that 
if you didn't read it, I would not have written it, rather 
than accepting the simpler hypothesis that you are reading 
it now because I wrote it previously.

<big grin>

Frankie


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 06:27:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Sun Aug 11 05:27:25 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was  COTI website)
References: <20020804060231.5D9A02793A@mail.travellercentral.com> <3.0.5.16.20020804110019.353f3a82@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3D5643B6.2010801@gmx.net>

Douglas E. Berry wrote:

>At 04:21 PM 8/4/2002 +0800, you wrote:
>  
>
>>Was that spam and eggs
>>or spam, spam egs and spam?
>>    
>>
>
>Spam spam spam spam spam spam spam lovely spam, wonderful spam...
>  
>
bloody space vikings...

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 06:34:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug 11 05:34:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
Message-ID: <200208111232.MNT00071@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Frankie says
>Wheeler's argument is similar to asking you to accept the 
>hypothesis that because you are now reading this mail, you 
>are somehow influencing me to write it in the past, and that 
>if you didn't read it, I would not have written it, rather 
>than accepting the simpler hypothesis that you are reading 
>it now because I wrote it previously.

There was a brilliant explanation in the book Timeline, where 
one character tells the other not to resort to explanation by 
statistics or math.  

So, we'll skip the probability functions, etc, and the 
causality questions, and say:

In this particular universe, I'm reading your email.

Wow.  A new acronym to go with RL, IMTU, etc.  ITPU.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 07:14:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sun Aug 11 06:14:07 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was  COTI website)
In-Reply-To: <3D5643B6.2010801@gmx.net>
References: <20020804060231.5D9A02793A@mail.travellercentral.com>
 <3.0.5.16.20020804110019.353f3a82@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020811081452.00a9c100@minn.net>

At 09:00 PM 8/11/2002 +1000, Robert Houghton wrote:
>Douglas E. Berry wrote:

>>>Was that spam and eggs
>>>or spam, spam egs and spam?
>>>    
>>>
>>
>>Spam spam spam spam spam spam spam lovely spam, wonderful spam...
>>  
>>
>bloody space vikings...

Ya sure, you betcha.

Okay fellow travellers, who would you cast in a film version of Space Viking?

I'll start with:

Ian Richardson as King (Goodman) Mikhyl VIII of Marduk.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     My new first rule of advanced weapon testing: Make a backup 
copy of yourself before opening fire.
     --Kevyn, Schlock Mercenary, August 10, 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 09:00:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Sun Aug 11 08:00:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810233138.009e28a0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020811145935.10145.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com>

Are there any gun enthusiasts on the list who would
care to answer this question for me? What's the
purpose of a folding stock besides to make a rifle
easier to conceal? I can see the purpose on a rifle
,but I've seen pistols that had folding stocks, like
some old Mausers.(incredible pistols)What advantage
would this be to a pistol that's already very
concealable? My guess is that it helps stabilize the
gun if it's a semiauto. Anyone care to verify this for
me? Also, how would this translate into Traveller
rules?
thanks.

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 09:13:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Sun Aug 11 08:13:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Strike Cruisers
In-Reply-To: <OF846C706A.217A0A07-ONCA256C02.002526C5@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20020811151201.45130.qmail@web11803.mail.yahoo.com>

I'd say a meson gun allows the strike cruiser to be
> useful both in 
> attacking other ships - especially merchant
> shipping, to cut the logistics 
> tail - AND in the planetary bombardment role.
> 
Speaking of planetary bombardment, does anyone besides
myself expect the pc's to posistion a forward observer
before attacking something dirtside from orbit? Also,
would a forward observer even be necessary for a
spinal mount weapon?

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 09:25:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 08:25:10 2002
Subject: [TML] For Martin, Loren & Hunter (was  COTI website)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020811081452.00a9c100@minn.net>
References: <3D5643B6.2010801@gmx.net>
 <20020804060231.5D9A02793A@mail.travellercentral.com>
 <3.0.5.16.20020804110019.353f3a82@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811111828.01a24b28@192.168.0.1>

At 08:14 AM 8/11/2002 -0500, Leslie Bates wrote:
[snip]
>Okay fellow travellers, who would you cast in a film version of Space Viking?
>I'll start with:
>Ian Richardson as King (Goodman) Mikhyl VIII of Marduk.

Ok, to start, Ben Affleck is not suited to play Lucas Trask....regardless 
of how well DareDevil may do.

Hmmm....I just reread the book based on some comments by Herr Whipsnade.
Let me chew on this one today...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 09:31:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 08:31:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <20020811145935.10145.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810233138.009e28a0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811112434.02696110@192.168.0.1>

At 07:59 AM 8/11/2002 -0700, Daniel Tackett wrote:
>Are there any gun enthusiasts on the list who would
>care to answer this question for me? What's the
>purpose of a folding stock besides to make a rifle
>easier to conceal?

A fringe benefit. The first first time I remember seeing folding stocks was 
in WWII.
Made it less bulk for paratroopers when they where jumping (with a very 
large load of equipment).
Once they where on the ground, the stock was to be extended and used.

>I can see the purpose on a rifle
>,but I've seen pistols that had folding stocks, like
>some old Mausers.(incredible pistols)What advantage
>would this be to a pistol that's already very
>concealable?

Just what is the concealability rating of a broomhandle Mauser? :-)
The stock was to improve accuracy when firing.  It was made it easier to 
control at rapid fire.
Think, pistol/carbine hybrid

>My guess is that it helps stabilize the
>gun if it's a semiauto. Anyone care to verify this for
>me? Also, how would this translate into Traveller
>rules?

FF&S increased the range (and thus accuracy) when a stock was added.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The purpose of the First Amendment's free-speech guarantee was pretty 
clearly to protect political discourse.
But liberals reject the notion that free speech is therefore limited to 
political topics, even broadly defined.
True, that purpose is not inscribed in the amendment itself. But why leap 
to the conclusion that a broadly
worded constitutional freedom ("the right of the people to keep and bear 
arms") is narrowly limited by its
stated purpose, unless you're trying to explain it away? My New Republic 
colleague Mickey Kaus says that if
liberals interpreted the Second Amendment the way they interpret the rest 
of the Bill of Rights, there would be
law professors arguing that gun ownership is mandatory." -- Michael Kinsley 
Washington Post, January 8, 1990
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 09:35:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 08:35:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Land grab webring
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810233001.009e15b0@mindspring.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020810223128.0203be30@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811112842.01a82eb0@192.168.0.1>

At 11:30 PM 8/10/2002 -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
>At 10:31 PM 8/10/02 -0400, you wrote:
>>Any interest in a webring of landgrab sites?
>
>Yes!  It would encourage me to get a few planets put together and on the web.

Ok, that's two yes votes (besides me).  I'm willing to set it up and 
administer it.
It might be nice to have the home page as the downport landgrab page.

I would host it at ringsurf.com, which is run by our friends at Quiklinks, 
who also make GRIP Traveller and T20.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 10:38:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug 11 09:38:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
Message-ID: <200208111636.MOB00195@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Daniel Tackett says
>What's the purpose of a folding stock besides to make a rifle
>easier to conceal? 
It is not primarily to make a rifle easier to conceal.  It is 
to make the rifle easier to take aboard a confined space, 
such as inside a vehicle (inside a helicopter, grav vehicle, 
etc).

If you get the chance, look at some assault rifles with 
folding stocks.  Unless you're riding in a confined space, 
you'll always have the stock unfolded.  It dramatically 
reduces the effective range of the rifle to use it with the 
stock folded.

>,but I've seen pistols that had folding stocks, like
>some old Mausers.(incredible pistols)

A Mauser is not exactly a concealable pistol, with or without 
the additional stock

>What advantage would this be to a pistol that's already very
>concealable? 

I personally don't believe it adds much to a semi auto 
pistol, since pistol cartridges are of a limited range 
already.  You'll see it on some full auto pistol-sized 
weapons, and there it helps a bit, but those weapons are 
already of a questionable accuracy - they are intended for 
very close use (Skorpion, VP70, etc., are very short range 
weapons).  The sight radius on a pistol weapon with stock is 
still really short even when compared to a carbine or assault 
rifle.

I believe that folding stocks are already covered in the 
LBBs, as well as other rule systems such as GURPS.

IMHO, the effect of folding stocks on the time required to 
aim at a target, as well as the maximum aim benefit per unit 
time is best modeled in Phoenix Command Combat System.  None 
of the other systems adequately model this.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 10:40:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug 11 09:40:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day
Message-ID: <4b3d946bd5.46bd54b3d9@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
Date: Saturday, August 10, 2002 11:32 pm
Subject: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day

> Groth has another long night as SDNCO.  Routine, and 
> routinely boring.  After all, Imperial peacekeeping duty on 
> Garda-Vilis has been going on for over 20 years....
> 
> Still, he's trying to keep sharp, and learn new skills.  He's 
> hoping to improve his language skill in Vargr.
> 
> The corporal sitting next to him is engrossed in the latest 
> military tri-D.  Groth goes into the battalion office - 
> hopefully he can keep this private.
> 
> Unbeknownst to Groth, the S3 is keeping a late night, and 
> comes around to the office area.  Groth, engrossed in his 
> woofing, doesn't notice the major looking at him.
> 
> The major clears his throat.  He knows Groth is working hard, 
> but he's never gotten used to the idea of men growling and 
> barking like dogs.

Clearly this officer has spent precious little time around 
infantrymen.... ;-)
  
> "Carry on, sergeant."

I must thank you for an exceptionally amusing mental picture.

Meanwhile, this one _really_ happened over here during my first Sinai 
tour in 1986:

I had purchased a bottle of bubble liquid at the Force Exchange.  One 
fine night, at about 2200 hours, I was standing outside my barracks, 
allowing the wind to blow bubbles (we had a good 20-knot breeze off the 
Gulf of Aqaba that night [and most nights, for that matter]).  The 
battalion command sergeant major, CSM Rath (which is an _excellent_ name 
for a sergeant major) drives by in his jeep.  He stops, looks at me for 
a moment, shakes his head and drives away, no doubt thinking that the 
S-5 section had been in theater a bit too long....




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 10:52:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Coy Krill)
Date: Sun Aug 11 09:52:09 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Dougs MOS and Language (was Audible Signature...)
Message-ID: <200208110950.37885.coy.krill@verizon.net>

Douglas Berry wrote:

>Of course, given my MOS and assigned (_not_ chosen!) target language, 
>that could be a couple of decades from now.... :-(

What's your MOS and target language?

Coy
Former 96C/97E targetting Persian Farsi 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 10:54:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug 11 09:54:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day
Message-ID: <514a852165.52165514a8@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net>
Date: Sunday, August 11, 2002 2:38 am
Subject: Re: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day

> At 04:32 PM 8/10/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> >
> >The major clears his throat.  He knows Groth is working hard, 
> >but he's never gotten used to the idea of men growling and 
> >barking like dogs. 
> >
> >"Carry on, sergeant."
> 
> I have to use this somehow.
> 
> Darn it.

As an aside, this would probably be a great-nephew of (and named for) 
SEH recipient SSG John E. Groth (see GT:GF for details).

SSG Groth (the SEH recipient) didn't live long enough to have children, 
hence no grandchildren.  The SFC Groth who's writing this right now has 
no children either, but that's not due to experiencing first-hand the 
difference between "bullet-proof" and "bullet-resistant"....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 11:56:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sun Aug 11 10:56:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Settlement date of Vilis
In-Reply-To: <20020811071903.23547.84149.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208111946470.3227-100000@ask.diku.dk>

John T. Kwon writes:
>Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen says
>>Vilis will need to be an unusually well-
>>organized and unusually successful colony venture in order
>>to grow to a point where it can impose its will on a
>>long-established world in just 50 years.
>
>
>That's the problem I had with the positive 240 date.  It
>would have to be a societal miracle on the scale of the Meiji
>Period in real life.  Japan going from 16th to 20th century
>in 40 years - and being able to project credible military
>power at the end of that period.

But it's not inconcievable that it could happen. Therefore it happened. It
only remains to figure out just how it happened.

I'm all in favor of correcting inconsistent canonical data, but only if it
is the only way to account for it. IMO this is not the case here. Unlikely,
yes, impossible, no.



Hans



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 12:10:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 11:10:07 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEMCCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>
>     Please see a mental health professional as soon as possible.  While
>Whipsnade's Syndrome is terminal, the final stages may be delayed long
>enough to allow the sufferers a nearly normal life.  The usual prescription
>involves a daily dose of alcohol.

No problem.  Why just last night I attended the Queen's Ball, a party to
celebrate the birthday of the Queen of Thailand.  My friend George, with
whom I had spent the day sailing a 22 foot sloop in San Francisco Bay
(however you remember the weather on the bay in August, you are probably
right, as we had a some of everything, plus our outboard malfunctioned while
we were becalmed), also attended.  We consumed enough alcohol -- primarily
gin and tonics -- to make up for the previous week's abstinence.  (Yes, I
believe my fiancee and her 16.75-year-old daughter were also there -- come
to think of it, I think George was making lewd comments about the daughter
during her dance performance -- but I don't recall too well.)  Umm ... what
was the rest of this discussion about?

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 12:12:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Sun Aug 11 11:12:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <200208111636.MOB00195@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020811181003.52567.qmail@web11804.mail.yahoo.com>

A Mauser is not exactly a concealable pistol, with
> or without 
> the additional stock

Hmm, just my assumtion on the matter. I figured that's
was why people saw off the stocks of shotguns; after
also sawing off the barrel ,of course. It does make it
somewhat concealable, but I of course, I think your
point was that if you want concealment, why a Mauser?
Mausers just came to mind because they're my favorite
gun. I'm no enthusiast, but I've always thought they
were cool. 

> IMHO, the effect of folding stocks on the time
> required to 
> aim at a target, as well as the maximum aim benefit
> per unit 
> time is best modeled in Phoenix Command Combat
> System.  None 
> of the other systems adequately model this.
THanks for the information. I, of course, looked at
the CT rules on stocks, but they gave no specific
benefits,except that it made the gun shorter,and
lighter, and a little more accurate at long ranges.
Unfortunately, I never got FF&S after GDW went under.
Hard to find.  I've never really looked for it online
though.
    I'm not familiar with the Phoenix Command Combat
system. I've heard of it,but that's it. I've seen a
link to it somewhere.

THanks for the information gentlemen.
Dan.
 > ________________
> Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
> Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 12:18:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug 11 11:18:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Settlement date of Vilis
Message-ID: <200208111816.MOD01276@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen says
>But it's not inconcievable that it could happen. Therefore 
>it happened. It only remains to figure out just how it 
>happened.
>

Well, the other thing I'm looking at is the radical 
population size currently noted. It's in the billions.  I'm 
thinking that whatever drove them to leave Gungnir is the 
same thing that drove them to achieve local power very 
quickly, and in a short period of time, grow from what had to 
be less than a million colonists (being generous) to billions.

They're living in a representative democracy. I'm thinking 
that they are not as obsessed with military spending on Vilis 
as they were in the Sword Worlds.  That might also explain 
why they did their Garda-Vilis intervention in the Broadsword 
adventure on such a small shoestring budget.

Over a long time period, with no major battles to fight, 
Vilis might not feel pressure to have high tech advances (on 
Earth at least, most tech innovation is the result of 
military research).  But they might be farmers, factory 
workers, and consumers along the same lines as the Japanese.

Gee, I keep getting that parallel, whether it's the Meiji 
period or current Japan.

It almost makes Frenzie look like Okinawa.  Perhaps the 
reasone that the original people left for Vilis is that they 
were pacifists - they didn't want a military culture.

A mild resurgence of military thought merges with "do good" 
government to intervene in Garda-Vilis.  But there's no real 
budget or large military to do it.

________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 12:29:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sun Aug 11 11:29:10 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt> <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <02081114275201.00604@linux>

>   >If planets are so self sufficient, then why does TNE describe planets
>   >failing because they were cut off from interstellar trade?

	Planets in the Imperium are not self sufficient unless they want to be seen 
as hopelessly isolationist and thus not entirely open to trade or political 
ties with the Imperium.


> Longer-term dependence on a scale of centuries may be a possibility,
> but I personally think it far more likely that if trade was cut, it
> would not take that long to develop local resources to cover or avoid
> the very small shortfall.

	 My position is that rockballs have NO local resources except rocks to 
develope. All other resources had to be imported at some point in time and 
that if they are no longer imported, then they must be renewable. Therefore , 
in my opinion, rockballs are not really viable for hi-pop hi-tech worlds.
I believe that the uwp procedure is broken and can give unreasonable results.

> > Thats all I'm saying... given sufficient stress to the system
> > (irrespective of which particular Traveller setting you use), you
> > can Fail any planet that isn't capable of supporting life without
> > TL9+ intervention.

	 Can humans  guarantee a self sufficient base on mars anytime soon?
On the moon?.  What is the lowest tech level where this could be possible?

> That's rather a guarded and qualified statement.  I'd go further and
> say that given sufficient stress to the system, you can Fail any
> planet at all!

	Yes. given sufficient stress.

> But it won't be due to lack of trade, which was the contention of the
> original post.

	No. It will be because of the upset in the world's economy as they adjust to 
lack of trade. <massive layoffs, crashing markets, etc. >
I find that the biggest concern is wealth distribution. Can the 'haves' 
readjust the economy fast enough that the 'have-nots' won't be driven to 
serious social unrest in order to eat. I am thinking of the French Revolution 
or the Russian Revolution in scope. Maybe those worlds that wouldn't be too 
unduly stressed are all hippie communes where everyone has equal access to 
all goods.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 12:32:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sun Aug 11 11:32:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <3D540E41.1040509@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <20020809190742.B3949@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D540E41.1040509@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <02081011564600.00603@linux>

>
> Each set of rules is indeed a different universe.
>
> Hard Times describes the MT Late Rebellion universe. GT:FT describes the
> steady state 'Strephon walks out of the shower' universe. WBH describes
> an early rebellion/CT universe.
>
> The fact that they all share remarkable similarities in background story
> is mere coincidence ;-)

	They are all in the same universe but just in different time periods.
Therefore... as laws  of physics and economics should be consistant, then the 
rules must all give similar outcomes. In my little 'test', I did not mix the 
rules, just showed what each set would give as possible outcomes. As each 
ruleset seems to concentrate on different aspects, no one set gives a full 
answer. I found that each in turn did give its own insight to the situation. 
One can then pick and choose from the outcomes.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 12:37:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sun Aug 11 11:37:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <02081114040900.00604@linux>


>
> A massive drop in tech level seems *exceedingly* unlikely though.  In
> trade volume terms, it would be like the Phillipines "abandoning" the
> economy of the rest of the world, causing the rest of the world to
> experience a massive economic slump, rioting, civil unrest, and
> reversion to pre-WWI technology.  No offense to inhabitants of the
> Phillipines, but I don't think they prop up the rest of the world.

	That sounds like the tail wagging the dog. Perhaps such effects would occur 
if the entire world abandoned, say, Japan to some degree. The loss of trade 
would affect the world more than it would affect the Imperium.

> Likewise, I don't think the minute volume of trade props up the
> high-pop worlds in Traveller.
>
	I believe that it props up the econmies of the worlds to a greater degree 
than you suggest. According to GDW, any world that was completely 
self-supporting was seen as being dangerously isolationist. The Imperium 
would no doubt put political pressure on the world to be better integrated 
into the imperial economy and the megacorps would put trade pressure on such 
a world in order to promote better manufacturing efficiences in the much 
larger Imperial market. Trade is an enormous carrot or damaging stick when 
dealing with another political entity.

> That's broken.  An average hectare per person assigned to food
> production is ample even with current technology and without trying
> hard.  Tech level 15 should be able to do *much* better.

	If it is broken then I feel all reasonable efforts should be made to fix it.

> > without even considering area for housing or industry or materials
> > production. IT would take a tech 15 arcology 25000 km^2 just to
> > house everyone.

	I forgot the equation for surface area of a sphere so I guesstimated it to 
be about 60% of the area of a cube of equal size, probably wrong. My point 
was to show lack of space for the population, agriculture, manufacturing, 
resources, energy production, etc.  I followed the rules without comparing 
them as yet to the RW.

> That's not a problem, even if you do decide to abandon the surface.
> Traveller fusion power is *really* cheap.  A megawatt would cost no
> more than Cr10/week.  It would certainly take much less power than a
> megawatt per person to grow food.

	My calculations were for a tech15 world as a best case. At lower tech levels 
in could become a problem. 
	I still want to know why anyone would advocate the population of the earth 
being shoehorned on a rock half the size of the moon. The old excuses wear 
thin after a few times.
	Why was trade halted anyway? The only two reasons I know would be in the 
case of war. Or if it was simply no longer profittable for a corp to keep 
sending ships there. Who and why would anyone fund such a thing on this scale?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 12:40:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug 11 11:40:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
Message-ID: <200208111835.MOF00148@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Daniel Tackett says
>    I'm not familiar with the Phoenix Command Combat
>system. I've heard of it,but that's it.

It has an interesting concept called Aim Time.  When you're 
expending actions during a combat round, you can decide how 
many actions you're going to spend aiming.  You can spend 
zero time aiming (not a good idea), or as long as 12 actions 
(for some characters, two or three combat rounds or longer) 
aiming at a target.

A typical pistol (the M1911A1) has an aim time listed as 
follows:

Action   DM
1        -18
2        -11
3        -10
4        -9
5        -8
6        -7

The DM is not against a die roll - it slides you up and down 
a chart.  So don't get excited by the big numbers.

It doesn't do any good to aim an iron sighted .45 longer than 
6 actions, and a person with high skill and speed will reach 
this point in less than a 2 second combat round.  Someone who 
is seeing the weapon for the first time may take more than 
three combat rounds to get to this point.  And you may have a 
high skill, but be fat, old, and slow.

Then the skill DM is applied.  Obviously, if your skill is 
high enough, you can fire on every other action count or so, 
and still hit people close to you, while someone with little 
or no skill is just going to make a lot of noise, or fire 
infrequently.  And if your skill AND speed are high, you'll 
not only fire rapidly, you'll be able to selectively do 
things like the Mozambique drill.

By comparison, an M1 Carbine has the following Aim Time mods.

Action   DM
1        -23
2        -12
3        -9
4        -7
5        -6
6        -4
7        -3
8        -2
9        -2
10       -1
11       0

You'll notice that even if you don't have much skill, if you 
aim long enough, you can get a decent shot with a stocked 
weapon.  Weapons with certain types of scopes will eventually 
achieve a positive DM, while those with red dot sights may 
achieve a positive DM in less time.

If someone has high skill, and a semi-auto sniper rifle, and 
has the targets within a small cone closer than 200 yards 
away, a lot of people are going to get hit in rapid 
succession in specific body parts.

There is also an accomodation for maximum ballistic accuracy 
for every weapon - no matter how good you are, the weapon 
can't be any more accurate than a specific value at a 
specific distance.  

________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 12:43:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sun Aug 11 11:43:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Patton
In-Reply-To: <20810.075757.1b1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20810.075757.1b1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <02081114403102.00604@linux>

> >>If we can't follow our own laws except when it is convenient, we are
> >>all at the mercy of anybody in a position of authorty.
> >
> > Welcome to the "rule of men, not laws".

 "Laws are written in sand, but customs are written in stone"

Mark Twain....supergenius


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 12:45:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug 11 11:45:55 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
Message-ID: <200208111839.MOF00316@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

richard honeycutt says
<snip stuff about trade>

In whatever ways the trade rules may be broken, or not make 
any sense, I still go back to Traders and Gunboats, and the 
comment that the primary reason for interstellar travel is 
trade.

They say clearly that there is a lot of trade.  A lot of 
trade makes sense. 

If space travel was as easy in RL as it is in Traveller, we 
would have colonized a lot of places by now.  And we would 
have trade with the colonies.  A lot of trade.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 12:51:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Aug 11 11:51:05 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Dougs MOS and Language (was Audible Signature...)
In-Reply-To: <200208110950.37885.coy.krill@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020811114253.009e6900@mindspring.com>

At 09:50 AM 8/11/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry wrote:
>
> >Of course, given my MOS and assigned (_not_ chosen!) target language,
> >that could be a couple of decades from now.... :-(
>
>What's your MOS and target language?

My MOS was 11-B.  John Groth  talks to 'em, I just put bullets in their bodies.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 13:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Aug 11 12:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810093741.009f6d90@mindspring.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810093741.009f6d90@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m365yhfc15.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
> 
> I gave him official author dispensation to not have Marines in
> kilts.  Put 'em in clown suits for all I care.

THe 31st REgina Cream-piedeers?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
God saved a few pieces of Eden when he gave us the boot, and one of
the best is the fact that any fruit containing sugar will turn to
booze if you leave it to ferment.
   --http://www.soyouwanna.com/site/syws/basicwine/basicwine.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 13:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sun Aug 11 12:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811111828.01a24b28@192.168.0.1>
References: <3D5643B6.2010801@gmx.net> <20020804060231.5D9A02793A@mail.travellercentral.com> <3.0.5.16.20020804110019.353f3a82@pop.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20020811081452.00a9c100@minn.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020811111828.01a24b28@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <cvadlu853frpfp0389497526i1dsmdu01f@4ax.com>

On Sun, 11 Aug 2002 11:22:18 -0400, Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net>
wrote:

>At 08:14 AM 8/11/2002 -0500, Leslie Bates wrote:
>[snip]
>>Okay fellow travellers, who would you cast in a film version of Space =
Viking?
>>I'll start with:
>>Ian Richardson as King (Goodman) Mikhyl VIII of Marduk.
>
>Ok, to start, Ben Affleck is not suited to play Lucas =
Trask....regardless=20
>of how well DareDevil may do.
>
><SNIP>

I don't know about that; he's tall, handsome (though I'll have to
trust members of the other gender for a final ruling there), of
aproximately the correct age, and would seem capable of conveying the
sort of grim rage and determination that would be necessary to pursue
his foe for years and at the expense of losing his fief.

Other contemporaries to rule out:  Freddie Prinz, Jr.; Matthew
Lillard; Casper Van Dien (probably killed all future SF efforts by
appearing in Starship Troopers); Vin Diesel (of the current XXX).

Matt Damon, Afleck's childhood friend and frequent co-star, might be
another who could pull off the role.  Other possibilities escape me at
the moment.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 13:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sun Aug 11 12:33:03 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <02081114275201.00604@linux>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt> <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net> <02081114275201.00604@linux>
Message-ID: <2gedluka0l386dc7fqq7dug98nmh03gm7p@4ax.com>

On Sun, 11 Aug 2002 14:27:52 -0400, richard honeycutt
<richard@usisp.com> wrote:

><SNIP>
>
>> But it won't be due to lack of trade, which was the contention of the
>> original post.
>
>	No. It will be because of the upset in the world's economy as they =
adjust to=20
>lack of trade. <massive layoffs, crashing markets, etc. >
>I find that the biggest concern is wealth distribution. Can the 'haves'=20
>readjust the economy fast enough that the 'have-nots' won't be driven to=
=20
>serious social unrest in order to eat. I am thinking of the French =
Revolution=20
>or the Russian Revolution in scope. Maybe those worlds that wouldn't be =
too=20
>unduly stressed are all hippie communes where everyone has equal access =
to=20
>all goods.

I've generally been staying out of this argument, but I have to repeat
the point being made by other.  You are contending that this economy
is so fragile that a 3% drop in the world's economy (which is what
interstellar trade represents), would be sufficient to collapse social
fabric and bring about a general revolution?

I tend to agree with those who feel that the drop in trade alone is
insufficient to explain this fall.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 13:35:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug 11 12:35:12 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Dougs MOS and Language (was Audible Signature...)
Message-ID: <a28d9168.9168a28d@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Date: Sunday, August 11, 2002 9:43 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] OT: Dougs MOS and Language (was Audible Signature...)

> At 09:50 AM 8/11/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >Douglas Berry wrote:
> >
> > >Of course, given my MOS and assigned (_not_ chosen!) target 
> language,> >that could be a couple of decades from now.... :-(
> >
> >What's your MOS and target language?
> 
> My MOS was 11-B.  John Groth  talks to 'em, I just put bullets in 
> their bodies.

Assuming that they hold off on surrendering long enough for you to shoot 
at them.... ;-)

To answer the question, my MOS is 97E4P00AE.  And yes, I too went 
through Fort We-Gotcha when the MOS code was 96C.... ;-)

Now you see why I don't expect to retire when I'm eligible.... :-(


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 13:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug 11 12:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Settlement date of Vilis
Message-ID: <699d3c20.3c20699d@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Date: Sunday, August 11, 2002 8:55 pm
Subject: [TML] Re: Settlement date of Vilis

> John T. Kwon writes:
> >Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen says
> >>Vilis will need to be an unusually well-
> >>organized and unusually successful colony venture in order
> >>to grow to a point where it can impose its will on a
> >>long-established world in just 50 years.
> >
> >
> >That's the problem I had with the positive 240 date.  It
> >would have to be a societal miracle on the scale of the Meiji
> >Period in real life.  Japan going from 16th to 20th century
> >in 40 years - and being able to project credible military
> >power at the end of that period.
> 
> But it's not inconcievable that it could happen. Therefore it 
> happened. It
> only remains to figure out just how it happened.
> 
> I'm all in favor of correcting inconsistent canonical data, but 
> only if it
> is the only way to account for it. IMO this is not the case here. 
> Unlikely,yes, impossible, no.

Well, one possibility is that the Vilis colonists went in "loaded for 
bear" (given a turbulent situation in the Sword Worlds, this seems a 
reasonable approach), with a number of heavily-armed starships as an 
escort squadron.  Fifty years later, the escort squadron is still 
powerful enough to overawe and/or overwhelm a technologically-backward 
Tanoose, thus converting Tanoose to Garda-Vilis.  Once the conquest is 
secure, G-V lacks the spaceborne assets to contest further occupation, 
hence the low-level guerrilla war between Tanoosian nationalists and the 
Vilis occupiers.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 13:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug 11 12:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
Message-ID: <200208111949.MOH00506@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

JR Holmes says
>Other contemporaries to rule out:  Freddie Prinz, Jr.; 
>Matthew Lillard; Casper Van Dien (probably killed all future 
>SF efforts by appearing in Starship Troopers); Vin Diesel 
>(of the current XXX).
>
>Matt Damon, Afleck's childhood friend and frequent co-star, 
>might be another who could pull off the role.  Other 
>possibilities escape me at
>the moment.

Josh Hartnett would be good.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 14:04:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug 11 13:04:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Failed Worlds
Message-ID: <12e.15b8a75b.2a881d23@aol.com>

 >In whatever ways the trade rules may be broken, or not make 
 >any sense, I still go back to Traders and Gunboats, and the 
 >comment that the primary reason for interstellar travel is 
 >trade.
 >
 >They say clearly that there is a lot of trade.  A lot of 
 >trade makes sense.

Depends on what you mean by "a lot".  Consider trade amounting to 0.4% (a 
number cited earlier) of a 10 billion population world's productivity.  Seen 
from the perspective of an individual trader with a 400 ton merchant ship 
then that's an awful lot of goods being flown around, but as a percentage of 
that world's economy it's not world-breaking.

The planet generation system is simply random.  It generates arbitrary 
results and leaves it to the referee to rationalize why things turned out the 
way they did.  This may lead to interesting game plots, but it cannot bear 
the level of scrutiny and examination that is being given it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 14:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 13:25:02 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in
 traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <02081114275201.00604@linux>
References: <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
 <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt>
 <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811161742.01d43ec8@192.168.0.1>

At 02:27 PM 8/11/2002 -0400, richard honeycutt wrote:
>          Can humans  guarantee a self sufficient base on mars anytime soon?
>On the moon?.  What is the lowest tech level where this could be possible?


For the moon, I'd have to say yes, we could if we put our mind to it.
My memory says that there were recent discoveries that makes water 
available on the moon.
<http://physicsweb.org/article/news/2/3/5>
Having a local water supply makes it much easier.
The major effort is convincing a government with the money & tech to do it.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 14:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Aug 11 13:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <20020811145935.10145.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B97C1824.694A5%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/11/02 7:59 AM, Daniel Tackett at haegen2001@yahoo.com wrote:

> Are there any gun enthusiasts on the list who would
> care to answer this question for me? What's the
> purpose of a folding stock besides to make a rifle
> easier to conceal?

Typically, the purpose of a folding stock is not to make a weapon easier to
conceal, but rather to reduce storage space.  This is particularly useful
for people like vehicle crews.

>I can see the purpose on a rifle
> ,but I've seen pistols that had folding stocks, like
> some old Mausers.(incredible pistols)What advantage
> would this be to a pistol that's already very
> concealable? My guess is that it helps stabilize the
> gun if it's a semiauto.

Detachable/folding stocks on pistols are of suspect value.  While it is tru=
e
that it is much easier to accurately aim a shoulder fired weapon, most
handguns benefit very little from the added stability because their range i=
s
effectively limited by their cartridges.

Still, in general a stocked weapon is easier to aim and keep on target than
one held freehand.  An in the case of some weapon, like the artillery and
Naval model P-08 (luger) and the C96 (broom handle) Mauser, there are reall=
y
more like stockless carbines than pistols.  Stocking these weapon can
realistically increase the 'usable' range from less than 50 to about 100
meters.

While this may seem insignificant, one must bear in mind that about 70% of
all infantry combat occurs at a range of less that 100 meters.  For
artillery crews and others who's primary mission is not infantry combat,
this at least gives them a weapon more effective than just a standard
handgun.


> Anyone care to verify this for
> me? Also, how would this translate into Traveller
> rules?
> thanks.
>=20

DMs for folding stocks are given in Book 1 of CT.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 14:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 13:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <200208111949.MOH00506@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811162447.01739e78@192.168.0.1>

At 03:49 PM 8/11/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>JR Holmes says
> >Other contemporaries to rule out:  Freddie Prinz, Jr.;
> >Matthew Lillard; Casper Van Dien (probably killed all future
> >SF efforts by appearing in Starship Troopers); Vin Diesel
> >(of the current XXX).
> >Matt Damon, Afleck's childhood friend and frequent co-star,
> >might be another who could pull off the role.  Other
> >possibilities escape me at
> >the moment.
>Josh Hartnett would be good.

Yes.  Afleck is just a bit too 'pretty' for Trask. Perhaps as Prince Bentrik.

Now...who to play Otto Harkaman?


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 14:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sun Aug 11 13:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811162447.01739e78@192.168.0.1>
References: <200208111949.MOH00506@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020811155443.00aa06c0@minn.net>

At 04:33 PM 8/11/2002 -0400, Mark Urbin wrote:


>Yes.  Afleck is just a bit too 'pretty' for Trask. Perhaps as Prince Bentrik.

Kenneth Branaugh (sp?) as Prince Bentrik.

>Now...who to play Otto Harkaman?

Twenty years ago I would have gone with Clint Eastwood as Harkaman. Need
someone really tall.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 14:56:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sun Aug 11 13:56:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Failed Worlds
References: <12e.15b8a75b.2a881d23@aol.com>
Message-ID: <004001c24179$4a42b850$7400a8c0@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: <Flykiller@aol.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 11, 2002 9:03 PM
Subject: [TML] Re: Failed Worlds


> >In whatever ways the trade rules may be broken, or not make
>  >any sense, I still go back to Traders and Gunboats, and the
>  >comment that the primary reason for interstellar travel is
>  >trade.
>  >
>  >They say clearly that there is a lot of trade.  A lot of
>  >trade makes sense.
>
> Depends on what you mean by "a lot".  Consider trade amounting to 0.4% (a
> number cited earlier) of a 10 billion population world's productivity.
Seen
> from the perspective of an individual trader with a 400 ton merchant ship
> then that's an awful lot of goods being flown around, but as a percentage
of
> that world's economy it's not world-breaking.
>
> The planet generation system is simply random.  It generates arbitrary
> results and leaves it to the referee to rationalize why things turned out
the
> way they did.  This may lead to interesting game plots, but it cannot bear
> the level of scrutiny and examination that is being given it.

The problem is that the trade rules are broken.

No-one seems to be taking into account intra-system trade stopping. If you
rely on resources from asteroid or comet mining, or you are scattered
throught a system in thousands of smaller outposts rather than all clumped
on one rockball,  and spacecraft trade in-system stops as well as out-system
then you are screwed.

Also, monetary value alone doesn't fully represent the reliance a place may
have for a low cost but essential resource not available locally. Say the
atmophere filters on a planet with a badly tainted, but otherwise
breathable, atmoshere require a relatively cheap catalyst that is not
available locally. These filters constantly need replacing, but the cost is
only a few 10's of millions of Cr a year. Suddenly all external trade
stops... as a percentage of your GWP it is a drop in the ocean, but in terms
of the planets viability it is tremendous.

Matt



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 14:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Spencer)
Date: Sun Aug 11 13:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
Message-ID: <B97C1CBE.3DF5%shadowjack@skyhighway.com>

Now, to really capture Starship Troopers in a movie, we should draw from the
time it was written, which was...[pulls out the book, checks the publishing
date]...1959.

I was about to be silly and say, "John Wayne as Raczak! And Elvis Presley as
'little' Johhny Rico!"

But then I stopped to think about it...


John Ford.


The year is 1960. John Ford directing.

And yes, John Wayne as Raczak.

Henry Fonda. (as DuBois?)

James Stewart. (as Captain Frankel?)

All of those guys.

James Dean as Rico. I know, he died in 1955. I don't care.

Ray Harryhausen does the special effects, backed up by the team from
"Forbidden Planet".

Electronic tonalities by Bebe and Louis Barron (also from "Forbidden
Planet"), and marches by the United States Marine Band.

Film it right out there in Monument Valley.

THERE'S a proper book-to-movie adaptation.

Yeah.


Damn. 


I wish I had it on DVD.
-- 
William Spencer         shadowjack@skyhighway.com

"Air conditioning had a fundamental impact on the country, contributing
along with the civil rights movement...If I had to make an estimate, it's
about 50-50 in terms of the importance of the two of them." - Richard
Nathan, Director of the Rockefeller Institute of Government at the State
University of New York


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 15:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bernie McGeehan)
Date: Sun Aug 11 14:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Land grab webring
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811112842.01a82eb0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020811211638.72037.qmail@web13401.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> wrote:
> At 11:30 PM 8/10/2002 -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
> >At 10:31 PM 8/10/02 -0400, you wrote:
> >>Any interest in a webring of landgrab sites?
> >
> >Yes!  It would encourage me to get a few planets
> put together and on the web.
> 
> Ok, that's two yes votes (besides me).  I'm willing
> to set it up and 
> administer it.
> It might be nice to have the home page as the
> downport landgrab page.
> 
> I would host it at ringsurf.com, which is run by our
> friends at Quiklinks, 
> who also make GRIP Traveller and T20.
Feel free to use the Rockhead graphics, etc, if you
like. I've run out of time to do it right.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 15:20:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sun Aug 11 14:20:00 2002
Subject: [TML] Dork Tower # 19, Page 25.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020811155443.00aa06c0@minn.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811162447.01739e78@192.168.0.1>
 <200208111949.MOH00506@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020811161823.00aa3660@minn.net>

Has anyone tried the Solomani Peanut Butter, Bread and Syrup yet?

Or (the Creative Ruling Consciousness help us) IGOR BARS?


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 15:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sun Aug 11 14:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <20020811071903.23547.84149.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208112318180.3568-100000@ask.diku.dk>

I wrote:
>Here is a list of book titles and short summaries thereof that I worked
>out for the books. Bear in mind that while they are supposedly semi-
>biographical, the emphasis is in some cases on the semi. I would not, for
>instance, put much faith in the supposed first meeting between him and
>Arbellatra ;-)

Oops. I left out the last part of the list, without which my post made
considerably less sense. I'm posting the rest here. I usually trim my
quotes as much as possible, but in this case I'll repost the first part of
the list so that it is all in one place.

> "Young Lord Alderon"    Lishun 586      Young Kevin Alderon decides to
>   					join the Navy.
>
> "Ensign Alderon"        Core 588        Kevin Alderon attends Naval
> 					Academy on Capital.
> |
> |Never written                          Sublieutenant Alderon.
> |
>
> "Lieutenant Alderon"    Vland 594       Lieutenant Alderon foils Vargr
> 					spys and meets a young vargr named
> 					Soegz.
>
> "Liutenant Alderon      Corridor 596    Lieutenant  Alderon  battles Vargr
>  and the Raiders"                       raiders along the Corridor border.
>
> "Lt. Cmdr. Alderon"     Deneb 600
>
> "Commander Alderon"     Sp. Mar. 604
>
> "Commander Alderon      Sp. Mar. 605    A   brilliant  young  ensign named
>  and the ensign"                        Arbellatra  serves  under Commander
>                                         Alderon who promotes  her over the
> 					head of older ensigns.
>
> "Commander Alderon      Tr. Rch. 613    Commander Alderon protects a client
>  and the _ihatei_"                      state in the Outrim Void from Aslan
>                                         settlers, eventually finding alter-
>                                         native land for the Aslans.
>
> "Captain Alderon"       Sp. Mar. 615    The outbreak of the Second Frontier
>                                         War  brings Kevin Alderon his long-
>                                         deserved promotion to captain.
>
> "Captain Alderon's      Sp. Mar. 619    Alderon becomes Flag Captain to Ar-
>  Flag"                                  bellatra, the newly-appointed Grand
>                                         Admiral of the Marches.


"Lord Alderon's         Deneb 620       After the defeat of The Outworld
 Choice"                                Arbellatra and her loyal men must
                                        decide whether to attempt to save
                                        the Imperium.

"Lord Alderon and       Core 622        While  Arbellatra  and  Soegz lays
 the Rebel Fleet"                       siege to Capital, Lord Alderon with
                                        a  rag-tag  fleet  must  prevent a
                                        superior  force from coming to the
                                        old emperor's aid.

"Lord Alderon and       Core 622        The final days of the Siege of Capi-
 the Regent"                            tal.

"Lord Alderon and       Antares 624     Lord Alderon  helps  Admiral Soegz
 the Archduke"                          claim his new Archduchy.

"Lord Alderon and       Core 629
 the Empress"

>Was Kevin Alderon no more than Arbellatra's faithful hatchetman or was he
>the guiding hand behind her? Whoever eventually writes the Civil War
>sourcebook will have to decide ;-D.


BTW, someone said that Arbellatra would have to leave the Marches before
the 2FW was over in order to trounce Gustus in 622. I don't think that's
necessary. If the 2FW is over in early 620 and the Civil War in later 622,
A. has some 32-33 months to do the job. From Mora to Vland is 84 parsecs.
That's 28 jump-3s (and only 21 jump-4s, but it's nulikely that A. would
leave behind her jump-3 ships; IMO many of her battleships would only be
jump-3). And a couple of jumps to account for having to jump short. That's
30 jumps. Assume an average of 10 days per jump and A. can get from Mora
to Vland in 10 months. From Vland to Capital is 18 jumps in a straight
line. Call it 21 and it amounts to 7 more months. That leaves 15 to 16
months for A. to negotiate with the Duke of vland, maneuver against
Gustus, and negotiate with the Moot and whoever is in command of Capital's
defenses. Plenty of time.




       Hans Rancke
 University of Copenhagen
      rancke@diku.dk
 ------------
 In my opinion it ought to go without saying that if you work in another
 person's universe, he and anyone else authorized to work in said universe
 is implicitly permitted to use your work as background material. But I
 know it doesn't, so I hereby give my permission for Marc Miller and anyone
 else authorized to work in the Traveller Universe to use the above as
 background material.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 15:58:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 14:58:22 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <02081114275201.00604@linux>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt> <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net> <02081114275201.00604@linux>
Message-ID: <20020812075652.A15923@freeman.little-possums.net>

richard honeycutt wrote:
> 	 My position is that rockballs have NO local resources except rocks to 
> develope.

It's a *system*, not just a planet.  There will almost always be the
usual assortment of asteroids, gas giants, icy moons, comets, and of
course tons of sunlight.  Land a few billion (or trillion) tons of
volatiles when you're building the colony.

What resources *can't* they develop?


You seem to be assuming a rogue world in the depths of interstellar
blackness.


> Therefore , in my opinion, rockballs are not really viable for
> hi-pop hi-tech worlds.

Oh, it's high-tech as well?  OK: add chemical synthesis, genetic
tailoring, automated mining and volatile retrieval operations, fusion
power, and plenty of other capabilities that make it easier still.


> No. It will be because of the upset in the world's economy as they
> adjust to lack of trade. <massive layoffs, crashing markets, etc. >

You're begging the question.  You're *assuming* massive layoffs, etc.
Given that trade accounts for 0.3% of the economy, why such drastic
effects?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 16:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Sun Aug 11 15:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Land grab webring
Message-ID: <200208111700.AA221053246@caddocourt.com>

From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
>Any interest in a webring of landgrab sites?

I would join.

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 16:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Aug 11 15:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
In-Reply-To: <B97C1CBE.3DF5%shadowjack@skyhighway.com>
Message-ID: <20020811220521.39A1327940@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/11/02 at 01:53 PM,  William Spencer <shadowjack@skyhighway.com>
said:

>Now, to really capture Starship Troopers in a movie, we should draw
>from the time it was written, which was...[pulls out the book, checks
>the publishing date]...1959.

>I was about to be silly and say, "John Wayne as Raczak! And Elvis
>Presley as 'little' Johhny Rico!"

>But then I stopped to think about it...

>John Ford.

>The year is 1960. John Ford directing.

>And yes, John Wayne as Raczak.

>Henry Fonda. (as DuBois?)

>James Stewart. (as Captain Frankel?)

>All of those guys.

>James Dean as Rico. I know, he died in 1955. I don't care.

So, go ahead with Presley as Johnny Rico. With proper direction
Presley could have pulled it off, and it might have launched him in a
direction where, in that universe, he'd have never made those awful
movies in the 60's. 

However, 1959/60 was so long ago that you may have fogotten some
people. Tony Curtis was young enough to play the role and hot in the
box office. Anthony Perkins wouldn't quite fit, I don't think, but he
was about to break out with "Pycho", so he would have been a
possibility. However, I think the perfect actor for the role, at that
time, would have been Jeffrey Hunter.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 16:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 15:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <02081114040900.00604@linux>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <02081114040900.00604@linux>
Message-ID: <20020812083508.B15923@freeman.little-possums.net>

richard honeycutt wrote:

[Tim wrote:]
> > No offense to inhabitants of the Phillipines, but I don't think
> > they prop up the rest of the world.

> 	That sounds like the tail wagging the dog.

Yes it does.  That's why I don't believe it would happen in Traveller,
either.  The Phillipines interact about as much with the economy of
the rest of the world as the Imperium interacts with the economy of
most high-pop rockballs.

If you don't think cutting trade with the Phillipines would crash the
economy of the rest of the world, why would you think that removing
the Imperium would crash the economy of a high-pop rockball?



> According to GDW, any world that was completely self-supporting was
> seen as being dangerously isolationist.

If that's in TNE, I'm not interested.


> The Imperium would no doubt put political pressure on the world to
> be better integrated into the imperial economy

If you actually look at the data, you would see that the Imperial
economy consists of a relatively small number of economic powerhouses
(the high-pop systems) with barely-visible threads of trade between
them.  The only "integrated" worlds are the low-pop ones.


> and the megacorps would put trade pressure on such a world

How do you put effective trade pressure on a world that is completely
self-supporting?


> Trade is an enormous carrot or damaging stick when dealing with
> another political entity.

How many times do I have to repeat this?  That is true only in
current-day Earth, where trade for most nations is between 25% and 80%
of their overall economy.

Trade value in Traveller is, literally, *hundreds* of times less.
That's not my opinion, it's in the published rules.

Trade to a high-pop Traveller world is a 3-gram carrot when you're not
really hungry, or a crumbling stick that is more likely to snap off in
your hand than hurt someone else.


> If it is broken then I feel all reasonable efforts should be made to fix it.

Gven my earlier research, 0.4 hectares per person would suffice at our
tech level (TL8).

Probably halve that at TL9 as tailored organisms produce most of the
raw foodstuffs for meat animal production (which takes most of the
space at the moment).  Halving again at TL10 with more efficiency
still.

Drop that by a factor of about 10 at any tech level where land is
substantially more expensive to develop than the benefit you get from
free light energy.


> I forgot the equation for surface area of a sphere so I guesstimated
> it to be about 60% of the area of a cube of equal size, probably
> wrong.

Actually about right.  Did you remember to square the radius?


> My point was to show lack of space for the population, agriculture,
> manufacturing, resources, energy production, etc.

My point was that there is no lack of space.  Planets are *big*.


>  I followed the rules without comparing them as yet to the RW.

How much area do the rules say it takes?


> I still want to know why anyone would advocate the population of the
> earth being shoehorned on a rock half the size of the moon. The old
> excuses wear thin after a few times.

"Shoehorned" is hardly the word.  The average population density would
be less than many *rural* areas on Earth.  Most likely, it started off
smaller and grew.


> Why was trade halted anyway?

I don't care.  I'm interested in the effects, not in the causes.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 16:38:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 15:38:25 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <2gedluka0l386dc7fqq7dug98nmh03gm7p@4ax.com>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt> <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net> <02081114275201.00604@linux> <2gedluka0l386dc7fqq7dug98nmh03gm7p@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020812083720.C15923@freeman.little-possums.net>

JR Holmes wrote:
> You are contending that this economy is so fragile that a 3% drop in
> the world's economy (which is what interstellar trade represents),
> would be sufficient to collapse social fabric and bring about a
> general revolution?

Worse actually, it's typically only 0.3% -- ten times smaller.  Often
less still.

That's why I keep shaking my head in disbelief whenever someone brings
up the drastic effects of loss of trade.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 16:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Aug 11 15:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <20020812083508.B15923@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <02081114040900.00604@linux>
Message-ID: <3D5791CF.9450.889980@localhost>

On 12 Aug 2002 at 8:35, Timothy Little wrote:

> > Trade is an enormous carrot or damaging stick when dealing with
> > another political entity.
> 
> How many times do I have to repeat this?  That is true only in
> current-day Earth, where trade for most nations is between 25% and 80%
> of their overall economy.
> 
> Trade value in Traveller is, literally, *hundreds* of times less.
> That's not my opinion, it's in the published rules.

However it is also in published canon that trade warfare (the Traveller 
Adventure) is practised and effective. Also that commerce warfare is 
practised and is therefore presumeably worthwhile. and that one of the 
megacorps (Tukera Lines) is almost entirely interstellar trade based. 
For it to be a megacorp from this it must be able to generate about the 
same revenue from it as the other megacorps (which effectively own 
entire worlds, remember) do from other forms of activity, much of which 
is probably not trade-based.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 16:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 15:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Failed Worlds
In-Reply-To: <004001c24179$4a42b850$7400a8c0@matt>
References: <12e.15b8a75b.2a881d23@aol.com> <004001c24179$4a42b850$7400a8c0@matt>
Message-ID: <20020812085830.D15923@freeman.little-possums.net>

Matthew Bond wrote:
> These filters constantly need replacing, but the cost is only a few
> 10's of millions of Cr a year. Suddenly all external trade stops...

So you use a different catalyst, and/or develop local means of
production of filters.  Obviously they don't need replacing often
(it's only 0.01 Cr/person/year!), so you can probably continue pretty
much as normal for a few years.

I doubt that it would actually take more than a few weeks to come up
with an alternative.  Even if it costs a *thousand* times as much to
make filters locally as to import, there's still not much impact.
Mild inconvenience, at worst.

Unless you want to posit that this catalyst is for some reason the
only possible thing that will *ever* work, and that it is *impossible*
(not just uneconomical) to develop locally, then I disagree with your
conclusion.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 17:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 16:12:02 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in
 traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <20020812075652.A15923@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <02081114275201.00604@linux>
 <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
 <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt>
 <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <02081114275201.00604@linux>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811190529.0161b050@192.168.0.1>

At 07:56 AM 8/12/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>richard honeycutt wrote:
> >       My position is that rockballs have NO local resources except 
> rocks to
> > develope.
>It's a *system*, not just a planet.  There will almost always be the
>usual assortment of asteroids, gas giants, icy moons, comets, and of
>course tons of sunlight.  Land a few billion (or trillion) tons of
>volatiles when you're building the colony.
>What resources *can't* they develop?

Given a high enough tech level (say B or better), and unrestricted access 
to the rest of the system, using non-starships, they should be pretty much set.

Now if they are TL 6 or 7, and they need access to material (say water for 
example) in the asteroid belt two orbits out...doable, but much more a pain 
the ass unless they have access to higher tech level equipment.

Hmmm....I'll have to start looking, just how many medium to high pop 
rockballs with a TL 9 or under are there?


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 17:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 16:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020811155443.00aa06c0@minn.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811162447.01739e78@192.168.0.1>
 <200208111949.MOH00506@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811192519.0162deb8@192.168.0.1>

At 03:54 PM 8/11/2002 -0500, Leslie Bates wrote:
>At 04:33 PM 8/11/2002 -0400, Mark Urbin wrote:
> >Yes.  Afleck is just a bit too 'pretty' for Trask. Perhaps as Prince 
> Bentrik.
>Kenneth Branaugh (sp?) as Prince Bentrik.

Perhaps...

> >Now...who to play Otto Harkaman?
>Twenty years ago I would have gone with Clint Eastwood as Harkaman. Need
>someone really tall.

Hmmm...Mel Gibson...nah too short and would have been better 5 or 10 years 
ago...
Russell Crow?  I don't think he's tall enough either...
Howie Long?  He's big enough or Dolph Lundgren would do two.  Have to 
darken the hair and add the beard.

Now for Lady Valerie Alvarath .
"She was beautiful-black hair, and almost startling blue eyes, a 
combination unusual in the Sword-Worlds."

Jennifer Connelly gets my vote.  Blue contacts and she's ready to go.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Sucessful Termanation of OPFOR Capabilities, re: Life Sustaining
Operations; Originating from a Departure Line Orientated to the Vertical
of the Main Battle Area."  --  http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 17:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 16:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] arrrrghhh....
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811192519.0162deb8@192.168.0.1>
References: <3.0.6.32.20020811155443.00aa06c0@minn.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020811162447.01739e78@192.168.0.1>
 <200208111949.MOH00506@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811194438.0163fce0@192.168.0.1>

At 07:32 PM 8/11/2002 -0400, Mark Urbin wrote:
>Howie Long?  He's big enough or Dolph Lundgren would do two.  Have to 
>darken the hair and add the beard.

Dolph Lundgren would do too, as in as well.  I'm sure he's done two 
before.  He's a movie star. :-)


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Discord, the Goddess of the Net, was developing a taste for blood sacrifice.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 18:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug 11 17:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] UN PKF Patrol Ship
Message-ID: <3D570097.F564D398@mail.cswnet.com>

Niles Anderson was having a bad day. The asteroid that he had been
surveying turned out to be nothing more than silicate rock. When he
lifted of from the rock, the number two fuel line ruptured and dumped
have of his ships gas out into space. Over the comm he recieved the news
that the bank would forclose on his ships loan if they didnt recieve
payment by next week.

Niles took it all in stride. Pulling out an emergency medical kit, he
shuffled around the contents until he found the vicoden bottle he had
picked up from a hack doctor on Juno. He popped two pills and looked at
the navigational display. A nickle iron asteriod was within range, but
the display showed a thin red line between the ship and the rock, with a
message that flashed:

NAVAL ORE MINING RESERVE #4 PROSPECTING FORBIDEN

Niles looked at the flashing light and contemplated his situation. That
asteroid probably had enough of a deposit on it to pay off the bank, and
what the military doesn't know won't hurt them, he thought.
Hitting the throttle, he accelerated his ship passed the perimeter on a
direct course to asteroid. 

Just as the ship reached the asteroid, another blip appeared on the
display. About the same time, a voice came over the radio comm.

"This is the United Nations Peace Keeping Force. Surrender your vessel
and prepare to be boarded."

Niles was having a bad day.


Ship: UN PKF Patrol Ship
Class: UN PKF Patrol Ship
Type: Patrol Ship
Architect: Dan Roseberry
Tech Level: 8

USP
         PB-0101112-000000-00002-0 MCr 31.675 95 Tons
Bat Bear                       1    Crew: 18
Bat                            1    TL: 8
Cargo: 22.400 Fuel: 1.900 EP: 0.950 Agility: 1 Marines: 15
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops

Architects Fee: MCr 0.317   Cost in Quantity: MCr 25.340


Detailed Description

HULL
95.000 tons standard, 1,330.000 cubic meters, Needle/Wedge Configuration

CREW
Pilot, 15 Marines, 2 Other Crew

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 1G Manuever, Power plant-1, 0.950 EP, Agility 1

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/1 Computer

HARDPOINTS
1 Hardpoint

ARMAMENT
1 Triple Missile Turret organised into 1 Battery (Factor-2)

DEFENCES
None

CRAFT
None

FUEL
1.900 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 56 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
18.0 Small Craft Staterooms, 18 Acceleration Couches, 22.400 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 31.992 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 0.317), MCr 25.340 in
Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
37 Weeks Singly, 29 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
An attempt using HGS to design the UN PKF Patrol Ship from GDW's
Belter. The original ship had a .5g drive; the HGS version can be viewed
as a new improved version. 

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 18:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug 11 17:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Great book
Message-ID: <200208120040.MOR00372@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Just reading the new Project Orion book.

Apparently, the idea was Ulam's.  And he didn't propose it 
for a manned vehicle - it was for a weapon system that could 
accelerate at 10,000g.

Are there any systems (FFS or GURPS) that end up with a 
10,000g missile?
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 18:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug 11 17:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: UN PKF Patrol Ship
Message-ID: <3D570384.D408C23@mail.cswnet.com>

Niles day was so bad that he couldn't even spell HALF right:

>When he lifted of from the rock, the number two fuel line ruptured >and dumped >>>have<<< of his ships gas out into space.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 18:56:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Angus McDonald)
Date: Sun Aug 11 17:56:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
Message-ID: <OF9A9D1E69.C3593D67-ONCA256C12.00808BF3@dnsalias.com>

Forgive a newbie, but wouldn't your point be that cutting trade off with 
the rest of the world would not crash the Phillippines economy?

If that is your point then it is debatable, I'd hate to see what the 
Phillippines would look like without international trade. You'd lose a lot 
of high-value adding services and products (no overseas engineers, 
architects, teachers, economists). Heck, in Traveller you'd probably also 
be restricting their information access (no XBoats), which limits their 
ability to develop and grow. Pretty soon you'd probably be looking at a 
society dropping in TL.

Imagine if their one import was something that everyone depended on, like 
a vitamin, or special plant fertiliser, or air ... not every system is 
going to have a nice wide range of elements, and maybe the cost to get it 
out of the ground/atmosphere will be greater than it costs to import it 
... 
---  from  ---
Angus McDonald
www.falkayn.com




Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
Sent by: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
12/08/2002 08:35 AM
Please respond to tml

 
        To:     tml@travellercentral.com
        cc:     (bcc: Angus McDonald/Dancrai)
        Subject:        Re: [TML] Rockballs and Economy


richard honeycutt wrote:

[Tim wrote:]
> > No offense to inhabitants of the Phillipines, but I don't think
> > they prop up the rest of the world.

>                That sounds like the tail wagging the dog.

Yes it does.  That's why I don't believe it would happen in Traveller,
either.  The Phillipines interact about as much with the economy of
the rest of the world as the Imperium interacts with the economy of
most high-pop rockballs.

If you don't think cutting trade with the Phillipines would crash the
economy of the rest of the world, why would you think that removing
the Imperium would crash the economy of a high-pop rockball?



> According to GDW, any world that was completely self-supporting was
> seen as being dangerously isolationist.

If that's in TNE, I'm not interested.


> The Imperium would no doubt put political pressure on the world to
> be better integrated into the imperial economy

If you actually look at the data, you would see that the Imperial
economy consists of a relatively small number of economic powerhouses
(the high-pop systems) with barely-visible threads of trade between
them.  The only "integrated" worlds are the low-pop ones.


> and the megacorps would put trade pressure on such a world

How do you put effective trade pressure on a world that is completely
self-supporting?


> Trade is an enormous carrot or damaging stick when dealing with
> another political entity.

How many times do I have to repeat this?  That is true only in
current-day Earth, where trade for most nations is between 25% and 80%
of their overall economy.

Trade value in Traveller is, literally, *hundreds* of times less.
That's not my opinion, it's in the published rules.

Trade to a high-pop Traveller world is a 3-gram carrot when you're not
really hungry, or a crumbling stick that is more likely to snap off in
your hand than hurt someone else.


> If it is broken then I feel all reasonable efforts should be made to fix 
it.

Gven my earlier research, 0.4 hectares per person would suffice at our
tech level (TL8).

Probably halve that at TL9 as tailored organisms produce most of the
raw foodstuffs for meat animal production (which takes most of the
space at the moment).  Halving again at TL10 with more efficiency
still.

Drop that by a factor of about 10 at any tech level where land is
substantially more expensive to develop than the benefit you get from
free light energy.


> I forgot the equation for surface area of a sphere so I guesstimated
> it to be about 60% of the area of a cube of equal size, probably
> wrong.

Actually about right.  Did you remember to square the radius?


> My point was to show lack of space for the population, agriculture,
> manufacturing, resources, energy production, etc.

My point was that there is no lack of space.  Planets are *big*.


>  I followed the rules without comparing them as yet to the RW.

How much area do the rules say it takes?


> I still want to know why anyone would advocate the population of the
> earth being shoehorned on a rock half the size of the moon. The old
> excuses wear thin after a few times.

"Shoehorned" is hardly the word.  The average population density would
be less than many *rural* areas on Earth.  Most likely, it started off
smaller and grew.


> Why was trade halted anyway?

I don't care.  I'm interested in the effects, not in the causes.


- Tim
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml





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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 18:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Aug 11 17:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
In-Reply-To: <20020811220521.39A1327940@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B97C5630.694FF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/11/02 3:05 PM, Eris Reddoch at erisred@telocity.com wrote:

>> James Dean as Rico. I know, he died in 1955. I don't care.
>=20
> So, go ahead with Presley as Johnny Rico. With proper direction
> Presley could have pulled it off, and it might have launched him in a
> direction where, in that universe, he'd have never made those awful
> movies in the 60's.

What about Sal Mineo for Johnny Rico?

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 19:04:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 18:04:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <3D5791CF.9450.889980@localhost>
References: <02081114040900.00604@linux> <20020812083508.B15923@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D5791CF.9450.889980@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020812110205.A16290@freeman.little-possums.net>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> However it is also in published canon that trade warfare (the
> Traveller Adventure) is practised and effective.

Oh, it would be highly effective against mid- to low- pop worlds that
aren't high tech.  It just wouldn't be effective against the high-pop
worlds with at least middling tech that we're talking about.

Trade warfare is something that high-pop moderate-to-high tech worlds
can apply against lesser worlds, but is not effective against worlds
of a similar stature.


[Tukera]
> For it to be a megacorp from this it must be able to generate about the 
> same revenue from it as the other megacorps (which effectively own 
> entire worlds, remember) do from other forms of activity, much of which 
> is probably not trade-based.

How many megacorps own entire *high-pop* worlds outright?

I would imagine that any company that outright owns fifty worlds of a
few tens of millions people each would qualify as a mega-corp, with
annual turnover of ten trillion credits or so.  Tukera could match
that if it had a significant percentage of the interstellar shipping
business (which it apparently does).

There can be a huge amount of trade without it being a significant
portion of the economy of each high-pop world.  And there is.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 19:08:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun Aug 11 18:08:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
In-Reply-To: <B97C5630.694FF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020812010625.E62B32793F@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/11/02 at 05:58 PM,  Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
said:

>on 8/11/02 3:05 PM, Eris Reddoch at erisred@telocity.com wrote:

>>> James Dean as Rico. I know, he died in 1955. I don't care.
>> 
>> So, go ahead with Presley as Johnny Rico. With proper direction
>> Presley could have pulled it off, and it might have launched him in a
>> direction where, in that universe, he'd have never made those awful
>> movies in the 60's.

>What about Sal Mineo for Johnny Rico?

Not a bad choice. <g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 19:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 18:15:03 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811190529.0161b050@192.168.0.1>
References: <02081114275201.00604@linux> <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt> <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net> <02081114275201.00604@linux> <20020812075652.A15923@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020811190529.0161b050@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020812111400.B16290@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> Hmmm....I'll have to start looking, just how many medium to high pop
> rockballs with a TL 9 or under are there?

I get about 60-70 from a quick database search, counting "medium to
high pop" as population code 6 or higher.  Most of them actually have
pop 6.

Quite a bit less if you restrict the search to systems in the Imperium.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 19:17:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Mellman)
Date: Sun Aug 11 18:17:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Land grab webring
In-Reply-To: <20020811184038.2233.10156.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> from "tml-request@travellercentral.com" at Aug 11, 2002 11:40:38 AM
Message-ID: <200208120114.VAA04947@shell.cinternet.net>

Hey Mark,

I'll throw Belizo into a land grab webring if one forms.  Just tell me
when and how.

 ...........................................................................
  Bill Mellman
  mailto:tml@idbin.com
  http://www.mellman.net/bill/
  http://www.geocities.com/mellmanw/Traveller
 ...........................................................................



 .   Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 11:32:12 -0400
 .   To: tml@travellercentral.com
 .   From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net>
 .   Subject: Re: [TML] Land grab webring
 .   Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
 .   
 .   At 11:30 PM 8/10/2002 -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
 .   >At 10:31 PM 8/10/02 -0400, you wrote:
 .   >>Any interest in a webring of landgrab sites?
 .   >
 .   >Yes!  It would encourage me to get a few planets put together and on the web.
 .   
 .   Ok, that's two yes votes (besides me).  I'm willing to set it up and 
 .   administer it.
 .   It might be nice to have the home page as the downport landgrab page.
 .   
 .   I would host it at ringsurf.com, which is run by our friends at Quiklinks, 
 .   who also make GRIP Traveller and T20.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 19:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug 11 18:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
Message-ID: <59.1fb611e5.2a8868d3@aol.com>

 >> My point was to show lack of space for the population, agriculture,
 >> manufacturing, resources, energy production, etc.
 >
 My point was that there is no lack of space.  Planets are *big*.

A planet 1000 miles in diameter with a population of 1 billion will have 2 
surface acres per person.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 19:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 18:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <OF9A9D1E69.C3593D67-ONCA256C12.00808BF3@dnsalias.com>
References: <OF9A9D1E69.C3593D67-ONCA256C12.00808BF3@dnsalias.com>
Message-ID: <20020812114000.C16290@freeman.little-possums.net>

Angus McDonald wrote:
> Forgive a newbie, but wouldn't your point be that cutting trade off with 
> the rest of the world would not crash the Phillippines economy?

Welcome to the list :)

No, that's not my point at all.  Trade with the Phillipines is about
the same proportion of the world economy as Imperial trade is to a
high-pop world's economy.  If it makes it easier for you, you could
think of the Phillipines as being the starport.

The trade value for high-pop worlds in Traveller is so low that there
are no Earthly examples of a nation that is so isolated.


>  I'd hate to see what the Phillippines would look like without
> international trade.

Yes, the economy around the starport would probably crash.  That
wouldn't devastate the rest of the world though.


> maybe the cost to get it out of the ground/atmosphere will be
> greater than it costs to import it

Yes, that's an argument for a cut in the 0.3% trade leading to maybe a
3% drop in the system's economy.  Not a 90% drop though, nor a
sure-fire recipe for massive layoffs, rioting and revolution.

In fact, in your scenario it might lead to a brief surge in the local
economy.  What used to be unloaded by a few starport workers now needs
more labour to develop.  Less efficient compared to importing it, yes
-- but if you say it's vital, it will be done.  The research and
development required could actually have a net beneficial effect in
other areas as well.

I'm not saying it *will* be beneficial, but it's certainly far from
clear that it will be highly detrimental even if the resource they
import is vital.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 19:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 18:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <59.1fb611e5.2a8868d3@aol.com>
References: <59.1fb611e5.2a8868d3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020812114228.D16290@freeman.little-possums.net>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> A planet 1000 miles in diameter with a population of 1 billion will
> have 2 surface acres per person.

Yes, a population density lower than many rural areas of Earth.

It certainly won't be a big planet-spanning city as seemed to be
implied.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 19:49:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 18:49:04 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in
 traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <20020812111400.B16290@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811190529.0161b050@192.168.0.1>
 <02081114275201.00604@linux>
 <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
 <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt>
 <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <02081114275201.00604@linux>
 <20020812075652.A15923@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020811190529.0161b050@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811214634.026feff0@192.168.0.1>

At 11:14 AM 8/12/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
> > Hmmm....I'll have to start looking, just how many medium to high pop
> > rockballs with a TL 9 or under are there?
>I get about 60-70 from a quick database search, counting "medium to
>high pop" as population code 6 or higher.  Most of them actually have
>pop 6.
>Quite a bit less if you restrict the search to systems in the Imperium.

Interesting...Thanks.  I'll have to find one, preferably in the Imperium 
and Land Grab it.
Preferably TL 7 or lower.  That would make things interesting...


-------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
In the US, obesity is a more serious health problem
among the poor than starvation. That's something that
would have been science fiction to anybody who grew up
before, say, 1900, or even 1950
-------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 19:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 18:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Land grab webring
In-Reply-To: <20020811211638.72037.qmail@web13401.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811112842.01a82eb0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811215525.029cdbb8@192.168.0.1>

At 02:16 PM 8/11/2002 -0700, Bernie McGeehan wrote:
>Feel free to use the Rockhead graphics, etc, if you
>like. I've run out of time to do it right.

Are you the owner?
If so, would you mind transferring the ring to me?>



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.new/EWW/
"Treeware" - Manuals and documentation.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 20:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 19:04:02 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811214634.026feff0@192.168.0.1>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811190529.0161b050@192.168.0.1> <02081114275201.00604@linux> <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt> <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net> <02081114275201.00604@linux> <20020812075652.A15923@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020811190529.0161b050@192.168.0.1> <20020812111400.B16290@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020811214634.026feff0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020812120335.E16290@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> Interesting...Thanks.  I'll have to find one, preferably in the
> Imperium and Land Grab it.  Preferably TL 7 or lower.  That would
> make things interesting...

How about Cold Rock, TL 5?  Old Expanses/Vendtup 2829, UWP=E4006A7-5

The Old Expanses are quite a distance from most campaigns though.
I have no data on it beyond what's in the database, unfortunately.
7 million people, no belt, 5 gas giants.  Probably not too warm :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 20:14:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Aug 11 19:14:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Failed Worlds
In-Reply-To: <004001c24179$4a42b850$7400a8c0@matt>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNOEAHEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>  >They say clearly that there is a lot of trade.  A lot of
>>  >trade makes sense.
>>
>> Depends on what you mean by "a lot".  Consider trade amounting to 0.4% (a
>> number cited earlier) of a 10 billion population world's productivity.
>Seen
>> from the perspective of an individual trader with a 400 ton merchant ship
>> then that's an awful lot of goods being flown around, but as a percentage
>of
>> that world's economy it's not world-breaking.
>>
>> The planet generation system is simply random.  It generates arbitrary
>> results and leaves it to the referee to rationalize why things turned out
>the
>> way they did.  This may lead to interesting game plots, but it cannot
bear
>> the level of scrutiny and examination that is being given it.
>
>The problem is that the trade rules are broken.
>
>No-one seems to be taking into account intra-system trade stopping. If you
>rely on resources from asteroid or comet mining, or you are scattered
>throught a system in thousands of smaller outposts rather than all clumped
>on one rockball,  and spacecraft trade in-system stops as well as
out-system
>then you are screwed.
>
>Also, monetary value alone doesn't fully represent the reliance a place may
>have for a low cost but essential resource not available locally. Say the
>atmophere filters on a planet with a badly tainted, but otherwise
>breathable, atmoshere require a relatively cheap catalyst that is not
>available locally. These filters constantly need replacing, but the cost is
>only a few 10's of millions of Cr a year. Suddenly all external trade
>stops... as a percentage of your GWP it is a drop in the ocean, but in
terms
>of the planets viability it is tremendous.
>

Of course this brings up the fact that the system rules are also broken.
Under First In for example, worlds in a system other than the main world can
have a sizable population. As a matter of fact each world in the system can
have a population almost as great as the main world. As a matte fact FI
states that if two worlds in a system have the same population then the main
world is the one in the star's life zone.

What this does is dilute the GNP of each and every system, making the BTN as
calculated using the Trade rules in Far Trader an even smaller. Fewer dtons
of cargo and fewer passengers as a percent of a ***system's*** economy.

There is a fix that would allow the number as published to be used. That is
to count both the population and trade numbers as representative of the
system instead of the main world. Trade classification modifiers, which are
related directly to the main world, should not be a problem, because the
main world will generally be the best world in the system for habitation. No
other world in the system should be in a position to get better modifiers
than the main world.

This has other aspects as well, which could be useful. Balkanized
**systems**, as opposed to worlds, would be possible, opening up tickets for
those spacer merc units described in SM. If the whole system is occupied (as
is likely for a space faring civilization) then the Highport could be in the
out skirts of the system, to better reduce jump masking and minimize the
time ships spend enroute to the starport. Also it reduces the load on some
of those really high population worlds. The population could be spread out
over a number of planets in the system, reducing the load on the individual
world to something more reasonable.

Thoughts?

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 20:15:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Aug 11 19:15:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <20020812114228.D16290@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEAIEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

So perhaps the problem is that the GT trade rules, in particular, work
better for places like the Spinward Marches when you're talking about trade
done by Free Traders, than they do for High Pop worlds in the interior
joined together by megamerchants.

So what's the cutoff here? How much trade is necessary to make the back
story of collapsing economies, riots and loss of tech level when trade is
interrupted plausible?


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 20:19:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 19:19:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Great book
In-Reply-To: <200208120040.MOR00372@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208120040.MOR00372@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020812121739.F16290@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> Are there any systems (FFS or GURPS) that end up with a 10,000g
> missile?

Technically GURPS solid rockets have no upper limit on their peak
acceleration -- but their burn duration will be very short.

It really wimps out on Orion drive acceleration though, since the
system described is probably based on the assumption of a manned
vehicle.

10000 gee acceleration is a *lot*.  What sort of materials can take
that much stress in a macroscopic object?  Even a block of solid steel
is likely to rupture.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 20:21:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Aug 11 19:21:10 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in  traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811214634.026feff0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNIEAJEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

Of course part of this goes back to what does TL mean. Any world which is a
member of the Imperium, and does not have its educational system purposely
dumbed down (by, let us say, a religious theocracy, for example) should be
teaching (G)TL12 science and technology in their educational system. This
makes it much more unlikely that TL will drop as the result of isolation.

As an aside, I noticed that in the early JTAS almost every low TL world
described as part of an adventure is explained as being a newly rediscovered
remnant of the Long Night. It would seem that the coexistence of low tech
and high tech worlds with trade for half a dozen centuries was not an
original fixture of the OTU.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 20:26:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 19:26:25 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in
 traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <20020812120335.E16290@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811214634.026feff0@192.168.0.1>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020811190529.0161b050@192.168.0.1>
 <02081114275201.00604@linux>
 <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
 <005301c23f9e$baba2820$7400a8c0@matt>
 <20020810113412.C5883@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <02081114275201.00604@linux>
 <20020812075652.A15923@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020811190529.0161b050@192.168.0.1>
 <20020812111400.B16290@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020811214634.026feff0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811221941.0296bbc8@192.168.0.1>

At 12:03 PM 8/12/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
> > Interesting...Thanks.  I'll have to find one, preferably in the
> > Imperium and Land Grab it.  Preferably TL 7 or lower.  That would
> > make things interesting...
>
>How about Cold Rock, TL 5?  Old Expanses/Vendtup 2829, UWP=E4006A7-5
>
>The Old Expanses are quite a distance from most campaigns though.
>I have no data on it beyond what's in the database, unfortunately.
>7 million people, no belt, 5 gas giants.  Probably not too warm :)

Cool. :-)

I'll run it through Heaven & Earth and start figuring it out...
Hmmm...Gas Giant moons would take the place of the asteroid belt for a 
source of mining & water...

Let's dig out my copy of the Traveller Book...TL 5
c. 1900-1939   Early computers...visions of TL 9 and A percomps being used 
to run life support systems...
Keeping old surplus small craft running using local parts...Vac suits that 
look like diving suits...



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
And, isn't sanity really just a one trick pony anyway? I mean, all you get
is one trick: rational thinking. But when you're good and crazy, ooo hoo
hoo, the sky's the limit! - The Tick  http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 20:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Aug 11 19:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <20020812110205.A16290@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <02081114040900.00604@linux> <20020812083508.B15923@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D5791CF.9450.889980@localhost> <20020812110205.A16290@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <1029120923.3d57239b4a4dd@www.paradise.net.nz>

Quoting Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>:

> [Tukera]
> > For it to be a megacorp from this it must be able to generate about
> the 
> > same revenue from it as the other megacorps (which effectively own 
> > entire worlds, remember) do from other forms of activity, much of
> which 
> > is probably not trade-based.
> 
> How many megacorps own entire *high-pop* worlds outright?
> 
> I would imagine that any company that outright owns fifty worlds of a
> few tens of millions people each would qualify as a mega-corp, with
> annual turnover of ten trillion credits or so. Tukera could match
> that if it had a significant percentage of the interstellar shipping
> business (which it apparently does).
> 
> There can be a huge amount of trade without it being a significant
> portion of the economy of each high-pop world. And there is.

If that were the case the _real_ megacorps would be the companies that settled 
for being highly active in the internal economies of a few hi-pop worlds, and 
treated the trade between them as incidental. If interstellar trade is only 
0.3% of a world's total economy even a company like Tukera wouldn't compare to 
a large corporation on a hi-pop world that had subsidiaries and branches 
throughout a populous sub-sector.

I suggest that the easier answer is that Far Trader is simply wrong. Older 
canon in Hard Times, The Traveller Adventure, and other sources dealing with 
Trav history (including some you're not interested in - TNE, etc.) say that 
trade is very important to worlds. The whole premise for the 3I is that its 
guarantee of good interstellar trade conditions was very attractive to most 
worlds. If trade is so unimportant to the major worlds of the 3I why did so 
mnay join willingly?

-- 
Rupert Boleyn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 21:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Angus McDonald)
Date: Sun Aug 11 20:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
Message-ID: <OFED183D4C.6BA32B37-ONCA256C13.000A8F10@dnsalias.com>

>>>
No, that's not my point at all.  Trade with the Phillipines is about
the same proportion of the world economy as Imperial trade is to a
high-pop world's economy.  If it makes it easier for you, you could
think of the Phillipines as being the starport.
<<<
Aah ... I see (said the blind man). It would still be better to look at 
somewhere that is more vital to the world economy, a source of high 
technology, perhaps Japan? Interstellar trade, if it exists at all, will 
either be high-value good for high-value good, or low-value bulk goods for 
high-value goods. I can imagine a planet sending it's mineral resources 
offworld (especially if radioactives) in return for a small amount of 
high-value offworld goods. The effect of cutting that off? You'd probably 
bankrupt the mining companies, inconvenience people relying on the 
offworld products and perhaps cause a lot of civil unrest (why'd I lose my 
lucrative mining job?).

>>>
The trade value for high-pop worlds in Traveller is so low that there
are no Earthly examples of a nation that is so isolated.

>  I'd hate to see what the Phillippines would look like without
> international trade.

Yes, the economy around the starport would probably crash.  That
wouldn't devastate the rest of the world though.

> maybe the cost to get it out of the ground/atmosphere will be
> greater than it costs to import it

Yes, that's an argument for a cut in the 0.3% trade leading to maybe a
3% drop in the system's economy.  Not a 90% drop though, nor a
sure-fire recipe for massive layoffs, rioting and revolution.
<<<
A lot of this depends upon the Traveller trade rules, and whether your 
hi-pop world relies on imported Imperium high tech devices much. I'm sure 
the President won't mind having to give up his gravcar limo, but if the 
world's main agriculture source requires high-tech to do its work, then 
things could get nasty. It could be nastier if the people that own 
everything are offworlders, you might get a situation where eveyone loses 
confidence in the economy, because the major financial backers from 
offworld have pulled out, taking their plant & equipment with them.

>>>
In fact, in your scenario it might lead to a brief surge in the local
economy.  What used to be unloaded by a few starport workers now needs
more labour to develop.  Less efficient compared to importing it, yes
-- but if you say it's vital, it will be done.  The research and
development required could actually have a net beneficial effect in
other areas as well.

I'm not saying it *will* be beneficial, but it's certainly far from
clear that it will be highly detrimental even if the resource they
import is vital.
<<<

I guess the argument is that a hi-pop world must be pretty much 
self-sufficient in order to survive at all, given that interstellar trade 
is so small. To be hi-pop at all the world must be providing most of their 
own food/water, and _probably_ has a diverse industrial base. The most 
likely change is political (is this where this thread started?) as the 
government steps in to nationalise the offworlder capital base and 
guarantee jobs/survival. You almost certainly would have riots as people 
were fired and lost their jobs, slacking off once the government stepped 
in to put them back at work.

I think IMTU interstellar trade will be more important for most hi-pop, 
hi-tech worlds and very unimportant for hi-pop, lo-tech worlds (especially 
if they have hi-agri). Lo-pop worlds will vary wildly.

---  from  ---
Angus McDonald
www.falkayn.com

--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/html
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 21:11:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Aug 11 20:11:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Great book
In-Reply-To: <20020812121739.F16290@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <B97C7539.69535%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/11/02 7:17 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:

>=20
> 10000 gee acceleration is a *lot*.  What sort of materials can take
> that much stress in a macroscopic object?  Even a block of solid steel
> is likely to rupture.
>=20
Not likely, since Leupold and Stevens, a scope manufacturer proofs their
pistol scope designs at 10,000 G.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 21:13:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Aug 11 20:13:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Great book
In-Reply-To: <20020812121739.F16290@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <200208120040.MOR00372@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <20020812121739.F16290@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <1029121840.3d5727301b171@www.paradise.net.nz>

Quoting Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>:

> John T. Kwon wrote:
> > Are there any systems (FFS or GURPS) that end up with a 10,000g
> > missile?
> 
> Technically GURPS solid rockets have no upper limit on their peak
> acceleration -- but their burn duration will be very short.
> 
> It really wimps out on Orion drive acceleration though, since the
> system described is probably based on the assumption of a manned
> vehicle.
> 
> 10000 gee acceleration is a *lot*. What sort of materials can take
> that much stress in a macroscopic object? Even a block of solid steel
> is likely to rupture.

I get 70000 odd G as the acceleration of an M16 bullet, so it's doable. Whether 
it's doable outsode a gun barrel or with so,ething that's not a solid block is 
another matter.

-- 
Rupert Boleyn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 21:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 20:18:02 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in
 traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNIEAJEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811214634.026feff0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811231114.029cc008@192.168.0.1>

At 10:14 PM 8/11/2002 -0400, Terry Carlino wrote:
>Of course part of this goes back to what does TL mean. Any world which is a
>member of the Imperium, and does not have its educational system purposely
>dumbed down (by, let us say, a religious theocracy, for example) should be
>teaching (G)TL12 science and technology in their educational system. This
>makes it much more unlikely that TL will drop as the result of isolation.

TL is what the planet can sustain.  There are can, and probably are, Grav 
Based transports, but those are imports, as are the parts to maintain them.
It could be a planet with great religious freedom, but an oppressive 
government.
Transport on planet is under strict government control.  The government 
uses air/rafts and grav limos.
Workers take buses to their factories.  They have to get permit to access a 
train in order to travel to another city.
Maybe they don't need a permit, but the government finds it easier to keep 
track of citizens and their movements if they are limited to lower tech 
transport methods.

They could be using TL C farming equipment.  Expensive imports.  So they 
rely on locally produced TL 7 equipment for other aspects of life.

>As an aside, I noticed that in the early JTAS almost every low TL world
>described as part of an adventure is explained as being a newly rediscovered
>remnant of the Long Night. It would seem that the coexistence of low tech
>and high tech worlds with trade for half a dozen centuries was not an
>original fixture of the OTU.

Depends on where you are.  In the Core or out in one of the "Frontier" sectors.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 21:22:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ken Murphy)
Date: Sun Aug 11 20:22:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style
Message-ID: <F121PeKljq65Rn8P5o70000d29f@hotmail.com>

   Hi gang,
   Over the last little while I had been going over alternate ship combat 
rules for Traveller; cadging bits from here and there in an effort to cobble 
together something a little different from the usual HG or MT ship combat.
   Well, having recently made the jump to our new computer, I discovered a 
file I'd had previously somehow *didn't* make it; having gone the way of the 
Dodo during the transfer of files.
   In any case, it was information from an old Dragon magazine on different 
types of ship's weapons for Traveller.
   I believe the article featured roundshot projectors,infinite repeater 
rail/coillguns,and other bits, in addition to *Disintigrator* weapons. IIRC, 
these things as designed would *disolve* a different volume of displacement 
tons per unit; the amount varying with TL.
   I think there also might've been  Anti-Disintegrator technology of some 
sort; a spionge or filter or something which had X charges it could absorb.
   Does anyone know what I'm talking about and have access to this article, 
and if so, could I get a copy?
   Thanks in advance for any help :)
  -Ken Murphy-

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 21:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug 11 20:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
Message-ID: <3D572D20.9506FD49@mail.cswnet.com>

Nothing to add really, just keep this thread going;
I know its going to give me some detail for my landgrab ;)

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 22:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 21:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Broken Links: Anyone know where they really are now?
Message-ID: <pp6eluc7hj57m61c5ff320m97pc6ntf431@4ax.com>

I just did a maintenance run on Freelance Traveller, and came up with a
bunch of broken links.  Can anyone tell me where these links _should_ be
pointing to at this point in time?

Broken Links:

><http://enterprise.hb.se/~goeran/traveller/> - Gran Damberg's Traveller, the Web Pages.

><http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/Traveller/Rivals of the Third Imperium.htm> - Stuart Ferris's Rivals of the Third Imperium Webring homepage.

><http://home.earthlink.net/~jamstar/traveller/boats.html> - Deckplans mailing list

><http://home.sn.no/~starwolf/HIWG> - HIWG Homepage

><http://merc.travellercentral.com/> - Tod Glenn's La Mercenaire

><http://ouray.cudenver.edu/~lwlguatn/trv.html> - Leroy's (Guatney) Traveller Campaign

><http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/AndySlack/traveler.htm> - Andy Slack's Halfway Station Traveller Page

><http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller> - Michel Vaillancourt's Near Earth Campaign

><http://www.bifrost.demon.co.uk/Gaming/Utils/PlanetStats.html> - Samuel Penn's Planetary Statistics java app.

><http://www.bifrost.demon.co.uk/Gaming/Utils/PlanetStats.java> - Source for above

><http://www.bigbailey.com/vspace> - Mike Linsenmayer's Virtual Space

><http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/BITS_website/Software/QSDS_Demo.sit.hqx> - Rob Prior's QSDS demo HyperCard app

><http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/traveller/> - Peter Miller's Traveller

><http://www.ecafe.org/philadelphia/index.htm> - link to Philadelphia Experiment from Ken Pick's article on tweaking the jump drive

><http://www.et.byu.edu/~jongoff/RPG/Trav.html> - John Goff's TNE Section

><http://www.fas.org/dod-101/sys/ship/names.htm> - Link to detailed information on USN ship names from Ken Pick's article on naming ships.

><http://www.geocities.com/Area51/dimension/7081/4I.html> - Fourth Imperium Working Group webring page

><http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/5776/mtcgsrc.html> - Gregory Svenson's MegaTraveller Character Generator (source code)

><http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/trav2.htm> - Kevin Walsh's Free Trader Beowulf Traveller Web Page

><http://www.iinet.net.au/~mickb> - Michael Bailey's home page (link on his Author page at Freelance Traveller)

><http://www.leonidae.org/traveller/> - Andy Akins's Taneis Down Interstellar Starport

><http://www.metronet.com/~washi/Tas> - Rob and Suzanne Eaglestone's TAS

><http://www.novia.net/~odysseus/index.html> - The Crashland City Downport (owner's real name unknown)

><http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj/Traveller/index.html> Dave's (Golden) Traveller Site

><http://www.schirf.com/traveller> - Paul Schirf's Traveller Page

><http://www.teleport.com/~douglas> - Douglas Glatz home page (also links to pages below this location)

><http://www.travellerguns.com> - Tod Glenn's Mercenaries' Guide to Weapons

><http://www.warships1.com/UScvl22_Independence.htm> - link to page about the USS Independence from Ken Pick's article on the Essex.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 22:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Ayers)
Date: Sun Aug 11 21:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Broken Links: Anyone know where they really are now?
In-Reply-To: <pp6eluc7hj57m61c5ff320m97pc6ntf431@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <001101c241b8$1a172eb0$2f7de40c@loki>

<http://www.bigbailey.com/vspace> - Mike Linsenmayer's Virtual Space

is now the hypercube and a Traveller Ring member at:
<http://www.thehypercube.com/>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 22:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Aug 11 21:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Broken Links: Anyone know where they really are now?
In-Reply-To: <pp6eluc7hj57m61c5ff320m97pc6ntf431@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <B97C8BDB.6954C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/11/02 9:16 PM, Jeff Zeitlin at jzeitlin@cyburban.com wrote:

>=20
>> <http://merc.travellercentral.com/> - Tod Glenn's La Mercenaire

Folded into travellercentral
>=20
>> <http://www.travellerguns.com> - Tod Glenn's Mercenaries' Guide to Weapo=
ns

http://weapons.travellercentral.com

(Couldn't justify paying for another domain name)

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 22:49:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 21:49:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Great book
In-Reply-To: <B97C7539.69535%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020812121739.F16290@freeman.little-possums.net> <B97C7539.69535%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020812144751.H16290@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> Not likely, since Leupold and Stevens, a scope manufacturer proofs
> their pistol scope designs at 10,000 G.

That's impressive, but I was thinking about bigger things when I heard
"missile".  Smaller objects resist acceleration better (square-cube
law again).

A baseball pitcher could really throw it hard against a steel wall and
it would be undamaged, and it would survive a truck being driven over
it?


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 22:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sun Aug 11 21:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] [www] 11 Aug 2002 - Freelance Traveller Updated
Message-ID: <a9felukt8ja6gtusjbr5u2qqb0kvb1a6tl@4ax.com>

Freelance Traveller, the Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource has
posted its most recent update to http://www.freelancetraveller.com,
and http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller, and our mirror at
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller.

In this update:

 - Minor link fixups have been made throughout the site.  Because of an
   attack of real life, including much stress and a storm that knocked out
   our ability to update the site for a day, this is really a token update.
   The next update will be next week, and will be far more extensive -
   there will be lots of time available to do this next update.

Your questions, comments, and ideas are always welcome at Freelance
Traveller.  Please write to editor@freelancetraveller.com with any and all
of them, or use the feedback form at .../infocenter/feedbackform.html.
Freelance Traveller depends on the good will of Traveller fans both to
visit our site and justify our existence, and to write for us, making our
existence possible.



Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture 
Enterprises, 1977-2000.  Use of the trademark in 
this notice and in the referenced materials is not 
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.

--
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.freelancetraveller.com
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/
editor@freelancetraveller.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 23:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 22:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEAIEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <20020812114228.D16290@freeman.little-possums.net> <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEAIEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20020812150125.I16290@freeman.little-possums.net>

Terry Carlino wrote:
> So what's the cutoff here? How much trade is necessary to make the
> back story of collapsing economies, riots and loss of tech level
> when trade is interrupted plausible?

I would guess trade >= 20% of GWP would be badly affected in general.
Special cases with trade of less than 5% or so might be badly hurt.

Dropping a few tech levels is something I'd normally reserve for
worlds that have the majority of their economy devoted to trade.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 23:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 22:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <1029120923.3d57239b4a4dd@www.paradise.net.nz>
References: <02081114040900.00604@linux> <20020812083508.B15923@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D5791CF.9450.889980@localhost> <20020812110205.A16290@freeman.little-possums.net> <1029120923.3d57239b4a4dd@www.paradise.net.nz>
Message-ID: <20020812151548.J16290@freeman.little-possums.net>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> If that were the case the _real_ megacorps would be the companies
> that settled for being highly active in the internal economies of a
> few hi-pop worlds, and treated the trade between them as incidental.

If they can capture the majority of the economy of those worlds, yes.
Even so, 10% of the trade of ten thousand worlds is still bigger than
50% of any few of them.

Tukera is still a very major player either way.

Of course, I should point out that none of the biggest companies in
*our* world have gross revenues more than 1% of our GWP.


> I suggest that the easier answer is that Far Trader is simply wrong.

I've got no problem with that.  I've been saying so for ages.  I have
far more trade IMTU, I'm just discussing the OTU as depicted by the
published rules because to talk about MTU isn't very useful to others.

I'll also note that not many people agreed when I said that the G:FT
rules were wrong :P


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 23:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Hamill)
Date: Sun Aug 11 22:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure: Frontier Rescue
Message-ID: <20020812053010.6814.qmail@web21501.mail.yahoo.com>

 
 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 11 23:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 11 22:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <OFED183D4C.6BA32B37-ONCA256C13.000A8F10@dnsalias.com>
References: <OFED183D4C.6BA32B37-ONCA256C13.000A8F10@dnsalias.com>
Message-ID: <20020812154457.K16290@freeman.little-possums.net>

Angus McDonald wrote:
>  It would still be better to look at somewhere that is more vital to
> the world economy, a source of high technology, perhaps Japan?

For a high-trade Imperium or a low-tech/low-pop world, that would be a
better comparison.  Not for high-pop worlds in the GT Imperium,
though.


> A lot of this depends upon the Traveller trade rules, and whether
> your hi-pop world relies on imported Imperium high tech devices
> much.

The standard GT:Far Trader rules are pretty explicit.  They don't.
Whether the GT:FT rules are a good model is not a question I'm
addressing.


> I think IMTU interstellar trade will be more important for most
> hi-pop, hi-tech worlds and very unimportant for hi-pop, lo-tech
> worlds (especially if they have hi-agri). Lo-pop worlds will vary
> wildly.

IMTU it's the low-tech or low-pop worlds that depend on trade the
most.  High-tech worlds can adapt to produce just about anything.
Low-tech worlds are much less flexible, and low-pop worlds rely on
trade for infrastructure development and maintenance.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 01:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 00:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMEMFCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: William Spencer <shadowjack@skyhighway.com>
>
>Now, to really capture Starship Troopers in a movie, we should draw from
the
>time it was written, which was...[pulls out the book, checks the publishing
>date]...1959.

>THERE'S a proper book-to-movie adaptation.
>
>I wish I had it on DVD.

You know, given recent developments in video technology, in a few years, you
might be able to make that movie yourself.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 01:16:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 00:16:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arbellatra
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEMFCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
>
>IMO the IN of CT is actually quite open to various forms of cronyism,
>nepotism, etc. It and the Marines are the two services where a good Soc
>improves your chances and, unlike the Marines, in the Navy your Soc can
>improve during service (all according to Book 1).

Do real navies have the custom of "wetting down" a new stripe so that it
will stick?  I read a novel once in which a USN officer was promoted while
serving on a ship, and he had to throw a drinking party for all of the other
officers at a nice restaurant at their next port of call (which was in
Spain, as I recall).  He had to take an advance on his next few paychecks to
cover it.  In any event, this could be a fun piece to throw into a Traveller
game.  (And where do you think that Carousing skill comes from, anyway?)

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 01:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Mon Aug 12 00:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <200208111835.MOF00148@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020812074725.29858.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>

Very interesting. Is there a link to a site that
involves Phoenix Command Combat?
Maybe my games would include a bit more combat, if the
system was more interesting. Right now, my games don't
include a lot of combat. My current campaign has been
going on since December, we play about 3 hours every
Mon night and we've only had about 3 combat
situations, since we started. I'm actually a little
proud of that fact, but my players would like to see a
little more combat.
thanks for the info and charts. I may try it out.
Dan.

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
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HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 02:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Aug 12 01:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Dougs MOS and Language (was Audible Signature...)
In-Reply-To: <a28d9168.9168a28d@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020812013610.009f5ec0@mindspring.com>

At 10:34 PM 8/11/02 +0300, you wrote:

> > My MOS was 11-B.  John Groth  talks to 'em, I just put bullets in
> > their bodies.
>
>Assuming that they hold off on surrendering long enough for you to shoot
>at them.... ;-)
>
>To answer the question, my MOS is 97E4P00AE.  And yes, I too went
>through Fort We-Gotcha when the MOS code was 96C.... ;-)
>
>Now you see why I don't expect to retire when I'm eligible.... :-(

John, you have to read Tim Powers' _Declare_ first chance you get.  A large 
chunk is set in areas you frequent, and will have you hiding under your cot 
when the wind howls outside.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 03:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Mon Aug 12 02:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style
In-Reply-To: <F121PeKljq65Rn8P5o70000d29f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020812090622.62065.qmail@web11807.mail.yahoo.com>

>    Does anyone know what I'm talking about and have
> access to this article, 
> and if so, could I get a copy?
>    Thanks in advance for any help :)
>   -Ken Murphy-
> 
I have a few really old Dragons. I acquired them
recently, and haven't really read them yet. You
wouldn't have a clue as to which issue, or maybe the
year of the issue?

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 03:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 12 02:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
Message-ID: <150c9d1542de.1542de150c9d@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel Tackett <haegen2001@yahoo.com>
Date: Monday, August 12, 2002 10:47 am
Subject: Re: [TML] Folding stocks

> Very interesting. Is there a link to a site that
> involves Phoenix Command Combat?
> Maybe my games would include a bit more combat, if the
> system was more interesting.

<<snip>>

Have you considered _At Close Quarters_ from BITS?




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 03:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Mon Aug 12 02:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <150c9d1542de.1542de150c9d@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <20020812091323.19972.qmail@web11804.mail.yahoo.com>

> 
> Have you considered _At Close Quarters_ from BITS?
> 
> Sounds familiar, but no, I've never tried it. Who
makes it?
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
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HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 04:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Mon Aug 12 03:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Broken Links: Anyone know where they really are now?
Message-ID: <memo.792770@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <pp6eluc7hj57m61c5ff320m97pc6ntf431@4ax.com>
Greetings dear hearts.

Not always a fail-safe, but when a site has disappeared it has often been 
archived on the Wayback Machine.

Go to http://www.archive.org/ and type the URL of the 'lost' site into the 
search box.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.
Snoop of this parish.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 05:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug 12 04:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Great book
Message-ID: <200208121101.MPL01105@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>10000 gee acceleration is a *lot*.  What sort of materials 
>can take that much stress in a macroscopic object?  Even a 
>block of solid steel is likely to rupture.

The components for a 155mm artillery shell are certified to 
100,000g, and have been so since the 1970s.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 05:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Hamill)
Date: Mon Aug 12 04:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure: Frontier Rescue
Message-ID: <20020812111141.33337.qmail@web21505.mail.yahoo.com>

Prologue
20 June, 2346 A.D. 1325 GMT
Leiber IV system
New Wyoming 

The winter culling of the herds was almost over. In
only two weeks the cargo ships that would take the
meat, hides, and other usable parts of what the locals
rerferred to as duffs would arrive. Most families
hadn't yet met their quotas, and skinner to herd boss,
were working around the clock to get finished. Others
were done or nearly so, and would get to New Cheyenne
early, to start the party before the ships arrived.
One of those was the Nguyen family.

Dan Nguyen, herd boss of the family, was organizing
the last of the culling operations when he got a call.
"Hey Bossman, can you spare a second? There's
something I want to show you." Dan grinned, "Sure
Little Mickey, I'll be right over." He turned down the
volume control as his earpiece exploded with curses
and threats. "Little Mickey", his younger brother, was
over 2 meters tall, and massed over 130 kilos, and
really resented being called by his childhood
nickname. Dan walked over to his ATV, climbed inside,
flicked the power switch on, and smoothly accelerated
towards where his brother should be.

When he got there he saw his brother standing next to
one of their hired hands, named Sam. Sam looked to be
in some pain, and was holding his right arm at his
side. "Uh Oh," He thought, "Mike better not be getting
into scraps with the hands again." He got out of the
ATV, and walked between the placidly eating duffs over
to where the two men stood. "Ok, whats going on?" He
asked. Mike looked over to his brother, "Well, I think
I'd better let Sam tell you, I really didn't see the
whole thing, I got here afterwards." Sam shifted his
injured right arm and started talking, "Well it was
the damndest thing, I was starting to put the bolter
up to that duff's head over there," motioning with his
head at a duff nearby grazing, " and the thing lifted
up it's head, looked straight at me, and headbutted
the bolter right out of my hands! The bolter went
flying, and I think the big bastard knocked my arm out
of its socket, cause I can't work it right." Dan
narrowed his eyes and looked Sam over. He didn't look
drunk, and Sam had been with the family for a few
years now, and wasn't the type to lie or exaggerate to
get out of trouble. "I've never heard of a duff doing
anything like that before, ever." "I know Boss, but I
swear that's just what it did!" "Well, if you're sure
about it, maybe we need to look over that duff, and
see if anything's wrong with it." 
Mike had been looking around in the grass during this,
stopped, bent over and retrieved the bolter. "It looks
OK, I'm just going to try it out to see if it works."
Mike walked over to the duff that Sam had picked out.
Dan suddenly got a strange feeling, and called out to
his brother. "Wait a minute, let's check that du..."
He stopped as his brother, hefting the bolter to the
duff's forehead, came face to face with the animal. It
was looking straight at him. Mike and the duff stared
into each others eyes for a moment, and then the duff
started a low rumble in the back of its throat, which
picked up in pitch and intensity to a high scream.
Mike began to back away from the animal, but it was
too late. The seemingly enraged duff charged Mike,
hitting him and tossing him 4 or 5 meters away, where
he lay still, then rushing to the prone man and
beginning to stomp, kick, and bite at him. Sam and Dan
looked on in horror, until Sam noticed the other duffs
in the herd had noticed the attack, and were watching
it and them. "Uh, Boss, I think we'd better..." "
Yeah, you're right Sam, let's get back to my ATV." The
two men began to back away, with some of the duffs
beginning to follow, some of them beginning to make
the same rumbling sounds the first duff did. Dan
looked back to where his brother lay. "Sam, when I
yell run as fast as you can to my ATV, and try to get
some help." "We can both run at the same time,
Boss..." "No Sam! I have to go back for my little
brother. Now RUN!" With that Dan gave Sam a push and
turned back towards where his brother lay. Sam ran as
fast as he could towards the ATV, tears of pain and
fear streaming down his face. He could hear behind him
the screams of the duffs, and the angry cries of Dan
Nguyen. Dan's voice was suddenly cut off with a
painful scream. Then Sam could both feel and hear the
Duffs begin to charge towards him. The fear and
adreniline gave him the power to run the ladt few
steps in a heartbeat. He pulled himself up the two
rungs to the driver's door, opened it up, and pulled
himself inside. Pulling the door shut, he could see
the herd running towards him. He fumbled with his good
hand for the radio. "Emergency! Emergency! Kill Team 2
has an emergency! Oh god, Mike and Dan are dead, and
the d..." As he spoke the enraged duffs struck the
ATV, throwing him into the inside wall, knocking him
out. He didn't wake as they overturned the vehicle, or
when the climbed onto it, crushing it with their
weight. Of course, it was much too late by then.

End Prologue

Thank you to those of you who helped me find GURPS
Modular Vehicles, and GURPS Character Builder. The
above was the prologue to the adventure that I ran for
some new Traveller players this weekend. I will post
the rest of the adventure as short fiction, if anyone
is interested. It went well, and several players
wanted to know if it could continue as a campaign.
Success!
Once again thank you to all the listers who helped me,
and to all those others who by their comments and
ideas on this list helped me start running Traveller
after a long time.

John
jwdh71@yahoo.com  


__________________________________________________
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HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 05:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Mon Aug 12 04:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure: Frontier Rescue
Message-ID: <memo.794790@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <20020812111141.33337.qmail@web21505.mail.yahoo.com>
Greetings dear hearts.

I for one would be fascinated to hear the rest of the adventure...

(Preferably in scenario form but no matter.)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 05:46:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 12 04:46:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
Message-ID: <19a45e19f516.19f51619a45e@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel Tackett <haegen2001@yahoo.com>
Date: Monday, August 12, 2002 12:13 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Folding stocks

> > 
> > Have you considered _At Close Quarters_ from BITS?
> > 
> > Sounds familiar, but no, I've never tried it. Who
> makes it?

Written by Doug Berry and James Lindsay and published by BITS, ACQ is a 
combat rules supplement for Traveller.  While ACQ was designed for T4, 
it includes conversion rules for CT, MT, TNE and GT (T20 hadn't been 
published when ACQ came out).  For more info (and/or to order ACQ), 
check out the Warehouse 23 link below.

http://www.warehouse23.com/item.cgi?BITSRACQ

BTW, the BITS site seems to be down.  Or is it jut me...?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 06:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 12 05:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Wanted: FF&S2 Ships
Message-ID: <1aacc61a9e40.1a9e401aacc6@us.army.mil>

~also posted to JTAS~

I'm starting up a variant TNE campaign (set in the Solomani Rim, 
featuring conflicts between the Terran Republic and the Dingir League) 
using T4 rules, and I'm looking for a few ships of 5000 dtons or 
smaller.  I have already designed a number of ships for this campaign, 
but I'd appreciate a few ships designed by someone else.

Thanks in advance!

PS:  I haven't gone through any of the TML Ship Rodeo designs; do any of 
them meet the above criteria (FF&S2, <= 5000 dtons)?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 06:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 05:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Broken Links: Anyone know where they really are now?
In-Reply-To: <pp6eluc7hj57m61c5ff320m97pc6ntf431@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020812082311.0205ceb8@192.168.0.1>

At 12:16 AM 8/12/2002 -0400, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
>I just did a maintenance run on Freelance Traveller, and came up with a
>bunch of broken links.  Can anyone tell me where these links _should_ be
>pointing to at this point in time?
>
>Broken Links:
[snip]
> ><http://www.travellerguns.com> - Tod Glenn's Mercenaries' Guide to Weapons

It's there, but the domain got stolen somehow.  Look under 
www.travellercentral.com.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 06:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 12 05:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: The power of the Nobility
Message-ID: <1c089d1c0020.1c00201c089d@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Date: Thursday, July 25, 2002 10:52 pm
Subject: [TML] Re: The power of the Nobility

> >From: Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net>
> >Subject: Re: [TML] Re: The power of the Nobility
> >
> >From what I've read (from a libertarian site) 
> >Voir Dire appears to be a French term for jury
> >tempering.
> 
> A jury should indeed be well tempered:

<<snips definitions of "tempered">>

Sorry, but my first thought upon seeing the word "tempered" was the use 
of that term in Heinlein's _Farnham's Freehold_.  In that book 
"tempered" is synonymous with "castrated."

OTOH, I can think of some well-known jury verdicts that would lead me to 
belive that the jurors involved should be tempered, in order to remove 
them from the gene pool.... ;-)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 06:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 05:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMEMFCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020812082551.01a17e18@192.168.0.1>

At 12:10 AM 8/12/2002 -0700, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> >From: William Spencer <shadowjack@skyhighway.com>
> >Now, to really capture Starship Troopers in a movie, we should draw from
>the
> >time it was written, which was...[pulls out the book, checks the publishing
> >date]...1959.
> >THERE'S a proper book-to-movie adaptation.
> >I wish I had it on DVD.
>You know, given recent developments in video technology, in a few years, you
>might be able to make that movie yourself.

Hence the current drive by various Hollywood based industries for laws 
calling for *extremely* tight controls on things like CD & DVD burners.
 From what I understand, the Phantom Edit, and the Phantom Re-edit were not 
well received by the studio...

Hmmm....this is an interesting hobby for a crew during Jump, film making.
Shoot scenes against a blue screen, add the background in the editing process.
Re-edit to match the culture of the planet you're en-route to.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Vikings? There ain't no Vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was
burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway.
That's our story and we're sticking to it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 06:33:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Angus McDonald)
Date: Mon Aug 12 05:33:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
Message-ID: <OF6637FD53.2C67D73A-ONCA256C13.0023873E@dnsalias.com>

>>>
The standard GT:Far Trader rules are pretty explicit.  They don't.
Whether the GT:FT rules are a good model is not a question I'm
addressing.
<<<
I'm not familiar with the GT:FT rules, it sounds like we agree that more 
trade is desirable. In fact I'm pretty much going to focus on T20 for 
future roleplaying (although I'll be using old CT, MT and T4 material).

>>>
IMTU it's the low-tech or low-pop worlds that depend on trade the
most.  High-tech worlds can adapt to produce just about anything.
Low-tech worlds are much less flexible, and low-pop worlds rely on
trade for infrastructure development and maintenance.
<<<
If it mirrors 'modern' economics then hi-tech worlds will import stuff 
that can be produced more cheaply elsewhere, whilst lo-tech worlds will 
try to become the sweatshop of choice for hi-tech worlds in order to get 
enough credits to become hi-tech themselves. In terms of GWP, it might 
well be that imports/exports are a greater % for the lo-tech worlds 
(incidentally, Charles Handy a respected British business guru makes some 
interesting points about how GDP measures spending and thus indicates a 
society is richer if they spend more - even if they are in fact giving up 
quality of life for those goods ... e.g. GDP goes up every time a parent 
returns to the workforce, while they put their kids into daycare, but 
society is not necessarily better off - it all depends upon what you want 
to measure with GWP).

One of the hardest things to find in the universe is a world that easily 
supports life without technological intervention. If a hi-tech society 
finds such a world that has lo-tech, hi-pop, then you would almost 
certainly want to help them improve their TL so that they become a better 
market for your own exports (which are helping to pay for all those 
vacc-suit decals [t-shirts] you're importing, not to mention that really 
hi-tech stuff that you want to have [TL 15-16]). It's a bit like the 
current situation with China - a massive population waiting to consume all 
those nice 'necessary' western goods.

Must run,
---  from  ---
Angus McDonald
www.falkayn.com




Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
Sent by: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
12/08/2002 03:44 PM
Please respond to tml

 
        To:     tml@travellercentral.com
        cc:     (bcc: Angus McDonald/Dancrai)
        Subject:        Re: [TML] Rockballs and Economy


Angus McDonald wrote:
>  It would still be better to look at somewhere that is more vital to
> the world economy, a source of high technology, perhaps Japan?

For a high-trade Imperium or a low-tech/low-pop world, that would be a
better comparison.  Not for high-pop worlds in the GT Imperium,
though.


> A lot of this depends upon the Traveller trade rules, and whether
> your hi-pop world relies on imported Imperium high tech devices
> much.

The standard GT:Far Trader rules are pretty explicit.  They don't.
Whether the GT:FT rules are a good model is not a question I'm
addressing.


> I think IMTU interstellar trade will be more important for most
> hi-pop, hi-tech worlds and very unimportant for hi-pop, lo-tech
> worlds (especially if they have hi-agri). Lo-pop worlds will vary
> wildly.

IMTU it's the low-tech or low-pop worlds that depend on trade the
most.  High-tech worlds can adapt to produce just about anything.
Low-tech worlds are much less flexible, and low-pop worlds rely on
trade for infrastructure development and maintenance.


- Tim
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml





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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 06:35:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sebastian Rogers)
Date: Mon Aug 12 05:35:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Efate
Message-ID: <26B39E1664DDD311A1010008C7DB51FDEA9CE3@TIKITNT4>

Hello There
 
Just working on Efate from the point of view of a Striker campaign, and also
the jump off point for the next Traveller Adventure, and wondered how the
land grab is going?
 
Basically I was hoping to use anything you'd done so far.
 
Cheers

Sebastian Rogers <-- "I've got the medicine you need, I've got the power,
I've got the speed", Ian Kilminster

Technically Architected

 


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 06:38:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 05:38:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Wanted: FF&S2 Ships
In-Reply-To: <1aacc61a9e40.1a9e401aacc6@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020812083136.0197b1e8@192.168.0.1>

At 03:03 PM 8/12/2002 +0300, john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:
>~also posted to JTAS~
>I'm starting up a variant TNE campaign (set in the Solomani Rim,
>featuring conflicts between the Terran Republic and the Dingir League)
>using T4 rules, and I'm looking for a few ships of 5000 dtons or
>smaller.  I have already designed a number of ships for this campaign,
>but I'd appreciate a few ships designed by someone else.


Try the Gearhead webring

http://www.ringsurf.com/netring?ring=travgearhead;action=home


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 07:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug 12 06:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Great book
Message-ID: <200208121345.MPR01625@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>That's impressive, but I was thinking about bigger things 
>when I heard "missile".  Smaller objects resist acceleration 
>better (square-cube law again).

I think it has more to do with the duration of the impulse as 
well.  An artillery shell only has to put up with the 
100,000g shock for a split second.

An Orion ship spends much more time coasting between shots 
than it does handling the blast.  This is evidently how it 
handles the nuclear explosions temperatures as well.

According to the design, a disk of propellant is also 
suspended between the bomb and the pusher plate.  When the 
bomb goes off, according to the book no one will see a 
detonation until the x-rays reach the propellant - and even 
then, there isn't a flash until the ionized propellant 
strikes the pusher plate, where there would be a brilliant 
flash at approximately 120,000 degrees.  But the duration is 
so short, there isn't time to effectively heat the pusher 
plate.  They estimated that over the duration of a trip from 
ground launch (where the bombs would be around 1 kiloton), to 
orbit (where the bombs would be around 5 kiloton), and cruise 
to Saturn and back to low earth orbit, the total duration of 
high temperature against the pusher plate would be around one 
second.

Some of the brightest minds in physics were assembled for 
this project, and the only technological hurdle given for 
stopping the project was concern for fallout in Earth's 
atmosphere.  They were convinced that all other technological 
objections (shock, G-loads, vaporization of the pusher plate) 
were solved.  It has been proposed that a device that could 
initiate a thermonuclear explosion without a fission trigger 
would eliminate the last hurdle.  Still, such a machine would 
have to take off from a fairly unpopulated area, such as a 
remote island, and there might be EMP effects along the 
initial flight path - but these are 1 kiloton yield, and not 
bombs the size of strategic thermonuclear warheads.

The version that would carry people would accelerate at an 
average of 2 to 4 G.

The physicists did some calculations that indicate that any 
engine that operated at the same thrust and isp (in essence, 
at the same temperature, mass flow, and exhaust velocity) 
could never under any circumstances operate as a rocket with 
an internal combustion chamber - Orion is an external 
combustion chamber.  Fusion engines, if they are to achieve 
their optimum specs, will also operate as external 
combustion, in order to prevent the volatilization of the 
engine itself.  That last part is a matter of simple physics 
and heat transfer.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 07:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug 12 06:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
Message-ID: <200208121350.MPR02053@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Daniel Tackett asks
>Very interesting. Is there a link to a site that
>involves Phoenix Command Combat?

The game itself is out of print, but the books can be had.
The site is www.phoenixcommand.com.

Interestingly, Phoenix Command is only a combat system.  
Although roleplaying books were written for the system, they 
are not very interesting, other than to come up with 
scenarios where combat will take place.

And now I will cue Doug to shamelessly promote his work, 
because if you want a little more accuracy in combat, but you 
and your players aren't completely nuts and bolts about the 
details of combat, you should use Doug's book, which is 
available from BITS.  I like it much better than the CT, MT, 
or GURPS systems, but it doesn't take an hour to resolve 10 
seconds of combat actions.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 08:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 07:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #915 - 25 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20020812074802.18165.19115.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020812074802.18165.19115.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <fpfflu4v6q4smc523ttlhcop67sjcme1en@4ax.com>

On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 00:48:02 -0700, John Hamill <jwdh71@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Message: 19
>Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 22:30:10 -0700 (PDT)
>From: John Hamill <jwdh71@yahoo.com>
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>Subject: [TML] Adventure: Frontier Rescue
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
> 
> 
>

...and that was it.  John, care to try again?  And maybe try copying
submissions@freelancetraveller.com in the process?
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 09:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Mon Aug 12 08:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] ArchiveX/all good things...
Message-ID: <3D57D18F.708EC97E@mail.cswnet.com>

I see the archive is down again.

Im trying to find all of the "All good things..." posts from last month.

Did anybody save those?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 09:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Mon Aug 12 08:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Fwd: Penguin Airlines??
Message-ID: <20020812152722.57956.qmail@web11004.mail.yahoo.com>

  >>
  .....*Ahem*.....Forwarded from a friend from another
list without comment......

     MACessna
  >>
--- Michael Cessna wrote:
> Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 08:22:34 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Michael Cessna 
> Subject: Fwd: Penguin Airlines??
> To: Michael Cessna <graymask1120@yahoo.com>
> 
> 
> Note: forwarded message attached.
> 
> 
> =====
> Michael A. Cessna
> 
>
************************************************************
> "There is no such thing as low intensity violence."
> A. M. Gray, Commandant, USMC (ret)
>
************************************************************
>
> Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 19:43:00 -0700
> From: J. G.
> Subject: Penguin Airlines??
> To: 
> 
> Ok, so they use Linux.  Great.
> 
> I still don't think an airline naming themselves
> after a flightless bird 
> is a Good Idea.
> 
>
<http://www.desktoplinux.com/articles/AT3386270774.html>
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 10:53:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Aug 12 09:53:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Wanted: FF&S2 Ships
In-Reply-To: <1aacc61a9e40.1a9e401aacc6@us.army.mil>
References: <1aacc61a9e40.1a9e401aacc6@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <20020812175552.5470ae9b.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 15:03:10 +0300
john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:

> I'm starting up a variant TNE campaign (set in the Solomani Rim, 
> featuring conflicts between the Terran Republic and the Dingir League) 
> using T4 rules, and I'm looking for a few ships of 5000 dtons or 
> smaller.  I have already designed a number of ships for this campaign, 
> but I'd appreciate a few ships designed by someone else.

I have this 1000 ton TL-9 freighter, maybe that will help? Apologies for the lack of floorplans and the crappy layout of the text. My files are in disorder right now. There never were any deckplans anyway, but the rest of the problems would be fixed.

The ship has two maneuver engines, one antigravity drive used to float between ground and orbit, and one fusion rocket used for interplanetary travel (not to be used anywhere near settlements). It has a jump drive and fuel enough for two jumps, making it capable of going where other low-tech ships cannot.

I designed the ship to use in my (still after almost two years of preparations) upcoming First Contact campaign, therefore the low tech-level.

-----------------
Judith class freighter
Cost: MCr 477.374

Crew: 9
Captain, Pilot, Navigator/Co-pilot, Electronics operator, Chief engineer, Power plant engineer, Maneuver drive engineer, Jump drive engineer, Space hand/Steward

Armor: 0        (T4 value)
Structure: 12   (T4 value)
-----------------
Hull: 1000 ton streamlined long box
 Dimensions: 48.1 x 24.2 x 12 meters
 Hull material: Light ceramic composite
 Maximum safe acceleration: 1.8 G 

Standard antigravity drive
 Maximum gravity countered: 1.11 G (loaded), 2.64 G (fuel only), 3.09 G (empty)
 Thrust factor: 0.08

Fusion rocket drive
 Maximum acceleration: 0.56 G (loaded), 1.32 G (fuel only), 1.54 G (empty)
 Fuel consumption: 245 m^3 LHyd per hour at full thrust 

Jump drive
 Fuel consumption: 1400 m^3 LHyd per jump 

Fission plant (TL8)
 Fuel consumption: 25.9 m^3 radioactives per year
 Power output: 259.26 MW 

Electronics
 Two standard and one fiberoptic computer (TL9), Computer Power 2.0
 High automation, computer linked controls
 Navigation aids and fligth avionics (TL8)
 Radio communicator (TL8), 1000AU range, 200 m^2 antenna
 Passive scanner (TL9), sensivity 13.5, 20 m^2 antenna, resolution at 50000 km is 13 meters

Fuel tanks
 All fuel tanks are included in the life support volume
 LHyd internal tank: 4000 m^3
 Radioactives internal tank: 26 m^3 

Living quarters and crew areas
 5 small staterooms (2 beds each)
 2 sanitary facilities
 Crew lounge: 56 m^3
 Ordinary galley: 4 m^3
 Food storage: 0.5 m^3
 Sickbay: 112 m^3
 Ship's locker: 4.5 m^3
 8 computer linked workstations
 9 crew G-tanks (including crewstations) 

Life support
 Type III (standard) life support with a duration of 4 weeks
 Food for 9 persons, 4 weeks of normal meals, two weeks of emergency meals
 Main airlock: 4-person airlock with decontamination facilities
 Secondary airlock: 2-person airlock
 Maintenance airlocks: Four 1-person airlocks 

Cargo holds
 Cargo hold volume: 7283 m^3 (520.3 Td)
 Cargo hatches: 21 normal-sized (20 m^2) hatches
 Handling equipment: 21 cranes with a capacity of 36 tons per hour each.
 Loading/unloading time: 9h 40m 
---------------

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 11:00:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug 12 10:00:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEAIEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029171559.113.ajackson@ping>

Terry Carlino writes:
> So perhaps the problem is that the GT trade rules, in particular, work
> better for places like the Spinward Marches when you're talking about trade
> done by Free Traders, than they do for High Pop worlds in the interior
> joined together by megamerchants.
> 
> So what's the cutoff here? How much trade is necessary to make the back
> story of collapsing economies, riots and loss of tech level when trade is
> interrupted plausible?

Enough trade that there wouldn't be any worlds in the main parts of the
Imperium with a pop below 8 or a TL below C.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 11:07:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 10:07:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Broken Links: Anyone know where they really are now?
In-Reply-To: <20020812165303.25790.64770.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020812165303.25790.64770.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <laqflusa9f50m7ak1emuov58g9mc3o5r6c@4ax.com>

On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 09:53:03 -0700, mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan
Robertson) wrote:

>In-Reply-To: <pp6eluc7hj57m61c5ff320m97pc6ntf431@4ax.com>
>Greetings dear hearts.

>Not always a fail-safe, but when a site has disappeared it has often been 
>archived on the Wayback Machine.

>Go to http://www.archive.org/ and type the URL of the 'lost' site into the 
>search box.

Oh, I know about the Wayback Machine; I use it myself sometimes.  But this
is more an issue of keeping links in Freelance Traveller up-to-date; sites
that are 'irrevocably' lost, but available in the Wayback Machine, will
eventually be snarfed, and at first inserted /en toto/ into Freelance
Traveller, and then the individual articles assimilated over time - simply
to preserve good material.  However, I want to try to keep links updated in
preference to cyberarchaeology/cybercryptrobbing.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 11:12:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 10:12:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #916 - 22 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20020812165303.25790.64770.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020812165303.25790.64770.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <4jqflug1l5ggt3pjmujq78tf7djodkqeik@4ax.com>

On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 09:53:03 -0700, John Hamill <jwdh71@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Prologue
>20 June, 2346 A.D. 1325 GMT
>Leiber IV system
>New Wyoming 

>Thank you to those of you who helped me find GURPS
>Modular Vehicles, and GURPS Character Builder. The
>above was the prologue to the adventure that I ran for
>some new Traveller players this weekend. I will post
>the rest of the adventure as short fiction, if anyone
>is interested. It went well, and several players
>wanted to know if it could continue as a campaign.
>Success!
>Once again thank you to all the listers who helped me,
>and to all those others who by their comments and
>ideas on this list helped me start running Traveller
>after a long time.

You could have saved four words by putting a period after 'short fiction'
instead of a comma, and dropping the four words immediately following.

Please be sure to copy submissions@freelancetraveller.com separately when
you post further installments.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 11:15:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug 12 10:15:16 2002
Subject: Armor Schemes (was: Re: [TML] mines)
In-Reply-To: <20020810180812.B6285@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029171921.7515.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:

> Of course, neither is going to do much against a standard missile
> doing 6d x 4000 (5).  Half a million points of armour is really just
> getting silly (and infeasible).  :/

Well, spaced armor should actually be effective against missiles; basically, as
long as the mass density of the outer layer is moderately close to the mass
density of the missile (about 300 lb/sf, or a DR of 7,500 with GTL 12 armor),
the outer layer will disintegrate the missile, vastly reducing penetration
against the inner layers.  The problem with spaced armor is that realistically
it's _less_ effective than normal armor against lasers, or against any sort of
projectile that doesn't disintegrate on impact.

OTOH, there's no real reason to have empty spaces in the armor; just about any
non-critical components can plausibly be put between the hull layers.
> 
> 
> - Tim
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 
> 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 11:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Aug 12 10:26:02 2002
Subject: Armor Schemes (was: Re: [TML] mines)
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1029171921.7515.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B97D3D81.695C6%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/12/02 10:05 AM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@iii.com wrote:

>=20
> OTOH, there's no real reason to have empty spaces in the armor; just abou=
t any
> non-critical components can plausibly be put between the hull layers.

Not to mention low mass armor materials, like foam or aerogel.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 11:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 12 10:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Wanted: FF&S2 Ships
Message-ID: <2fc2c72f988d.2f988d2fc2c7@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Date: Monday, August 12, 2002 6:55 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Wanted: FF&S2 Ships

> On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 15:03:10 +0300
> john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:
> 
> > I'm starting up a variant TNE campaign (set in the Solomani Rim, 
> > featuring conflicts between the Terran Republic and the Dingir 
> League) 
> > using T4 rules, and I'm looking for a few ships of 5000 dtons or 
> > smaller.  I have already designed a number of ships for this 
> campaign, 
> > but I'd appreciate a few ships designed by someone else.
> 
> I have this 1000 ton TL-9 freighter, maybe that will help? 
> Apologies for the lack of floorplans and the crappy layout of the 
> text. My files are in disorder right now. There never were any 
> deckplans anyway, but the rest of the problems would be fixed.

Yes, this will serve quite nicely, since at least one of the worlds in 
my campaign has a Class A starport and a TL of around 9.

Much obliged! 

<<snip>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 11:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Mon Aug 12 10:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Broken Links: Anyone know where they really are now?
Message-ID: <memo.804609@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <laqflusa9f50m7ak1emuov58g9mc3o5r6c@4ax.com>
> Oh, I know about the Wayback Machine; I use it myself sometimes.  But 
> this
> is more an issue of keeping links in Freelance Traveller up-to-date; 
> sites
> that are 'irrevocably' lost, but available in the Wayback Machine, will
> eventually be snarfed, and at first inserted /en toto/ into Freelance
> Traveller, and then the individual articles assimilated over time - 
> simply
> to preserve good material.  However, I want to try to keep links 
> updated in
> preference to cyberarchaeology/cybercryptrobbing.

Very wise, I use it for the same purposes myself.

But it's a useful resource and whereas we aging webheads might know about 
it, I'm sure it's a new one to some listmembers :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 12:22:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (john fox)
Date: Mon Aug 12 11:22:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveler Minatures
Message-ID: <DAV508BiC6HbSzxdWGH000331fe@hotmail.com>

Hello Everyone:
  AT one time RAFM manufactured a bunch of Traveler mins.
Do they still make them?
I looked at their web site and could not find them.
If not, where do I look to find some?

John W. Fox

--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/html
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 12:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Mon Aug 12 11:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <B97C1824.694A5%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020812184500.25846.qmail@web11807.mail.yahoo.com>

> DMs for folding stocks are given in Book 1 of CT.
 
My apologies, the modifiers for stocks ARE in the CT
rules. I  wasn't looking hard enough. 
Thanks.

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 13:15:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Mon Aug 12 12:15:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <200208121350.MPR02053@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020812185753.1613.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>

THanks for the links. Phoenix command is just free
online rules now? BITs is only 8 bucks so why not?
Thanks.

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 13:20:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon Aug 12 12:20:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure: Frontier Rescue
In-Reply-To: <memo.794790@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020812191909.C82F92793F@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/12/02 at 12:43 PM,  mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan
Robertson) said:

>In-Reply-To: <20020812111141.33337.qmail@web21505.mail.yahoo.com>
>Greetings dear hearts.

>I for one would be fascinated to hear the rest of the adventure...

>(Preferably in scenario form but no matter.)

That would be my preferance too. I have a bunch of my players on the
TML, but with a bit of "modifying"...<g>...dropping them among the
"duffs" might be an interesting scenerio.

Eris 
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 13:27:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug 12 12:27:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
Message-ID: <200208121926.MQC00016@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Daniel Tackett asks
>THanks for the links. Phoenix command is just free
>online rules now? BITs is only 8 bucks so why not?

At Close Quarters is an add-on for Traveller - it's combat 
rules.

Phoenix Command is not free - you would need the books (4th 
Edition basic rules, plus extensions).  The web site you're 
looking at is put up by gearheads who love it.

Most people would probably prefer ACQ - unless you're an 
ultra gearhead.  Do you and your friends constantly discuss 
the minutiae of combat and weapons?  If not, then you'll be 
happier with ACQ.  If you do discuss minutiae like this, to 
the exclusion of roleplaying (i.e., you like doing this sort 
of thing with miniatures), then Phoenix Command will make you 
happy.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 13:32:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Mon Aug 12 12:32:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Lanth subsector navies IMTU
Message-ID: <3D580C0E.7F070297@mail.cswnet.com>

Lanth subsector naval forces, done with budgets from Meduim Navies.
All is IMTU; YMMV.

Notes:
Imperial Navy ships mostly drawn from Supplement 9.
Imperial Scout Service ships drawn from Supplements 7 and 9, along
with HGS for the Type S Scout ships.
Colonial and Planetary ships exclusively using HGS.

I have about 10-12 pages of just usp&#8217;s for the ships listed below, so if
your interested in any particular one drop me a note and I&#8217;ll send it
out to you. I tried to use the Imperial Data Package model for the
colonial ships. This is apparent in the use of the F-5 I Tiger units.
The F-5, in each of its formats, is 15dt and carries a tripple missile
turret. The Type S scouts are done in the same fashion, with the TL11
Scout being the one most familiar 2g, j2, etc, the TL10 and 9 Scouts are
2g, j1. Alot of fighters are used simply because there cheap. The Lanth
subsector doesn't have a HI POP world, so cheap firepower is the order
of the day.

Imperial Navy, Lanth subsector forces:
6 Naval Bases
2 Gionetti Light Cruisers
6 Chrysanthemum Destroyers
12 Fleet Couriers
36 Type T15 Patrol Cruisers
1 Fer De Lance Destroyer
3 Gazelle Close Escorts
2 TL13 Gigs (stationed at the Lanth Naval Base)

Imperial Interstellar Scout Service:
5 Scout Bases
8 Xboat Tenders
180 Xboats
39 TL 11 Type S Scouts
10 Survey Scouts

Note: Imperial forces are usually supplemented with units drawn from
Rhylanor and Lunion subsectors.

Colonial and Planetary Navies:

Extolay Colonial Navy:
2 CG10 Gunned Cruisers, 1 FF10 DFC class Frigate, 
10 SDB10 Exactor System Defense Boats,
6 Type T10 Patrol Cruisers, 9 CV9 Very Light Fighter Carriers,
each with 30 TL9 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters (270 total).

Lanth COACC:
9 TL11 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters, 
2 TL10 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters

Ghandi Customs Unit:
1 PF-9 patrol fighter w/5 marines

Wypoc Colonial Navy:
1 TL11 Scout, 2 TL12 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters

Quopist Unified Colonial Navy:
5 TL10 Patrol Cruisers, 3 TL9 Scouts,
11 TL9 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters

Treece Grand Colonial Navy:
10 BB8 Gornshima Battleships, 10 BB8 CAM-118 Gunned Battleships,
10 Type T8 Patrol Cruisers,
4 CV8 Very Light Fighter Carriers each with
40 TL8 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters (160 total),
13 CV7 Very Light Fighter Carriers each with
40 TL7 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters (520 total),
12 Type T7 Patrol Cruisers

Ivendo Colonial Navy:
6 TL10 Scouts, 2 TL9 Scouts.

Tureded Colonial Navy:
3 TL9 Scouts, 3 TL8 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters

Equus Colonial Navy:
4 CG11 Gunned Cruisers, 1 CG10 Gunned Cruiser, 
6 Type T11 Patrol Cruisers,
8 TL11 Type S Scouts, 12 SDB11 Exactor System Defense Boats,
6 TL9 Launches, 8 TypeT10 Patrol Cruisers

Rhise Unified COACC:
1 TL10 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighter

Icetina COACC:
5 TL7 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters

Cogri Colonial Navy:
5 Type T9 Patrol Cruisers, 8 TL9 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters,
14 TL8 Old Solomani Patrol Ships [UN PKF Patrol Ship] 

Skull Grand Navy:
1 BB9 Battleship &#8220;The Dead Head&#8221;, 6 TL9 Scout Ships, 
1 Type T8 Patrol Ship,
4 TL8 Old Solomani Patrol Ships [UN PKF Patrol Ship],
1 CV8 Very Light Fighter Carrier with 
40 TL8 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters

Dinom Corporate Navy:
3 TL9 F-5 Imperial Tiger Fighters
Note: This is as of 001-1105. Disposition of the fighters after the 
revolution is not known. [Referees, consult JTAS Article on Dinom].

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 13:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Aug 12 12:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Wanted: FF&S2 Ships
In-Reply-To: <2fc2c72f988d.2f988d2fc2c7@us.army.mil>
References: <2fc2c72f988d.2f988d2fc2c7@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <20020812214026.7446b051.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 20:26:32 +0300
john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:

> Yes, this will serve quite nicely, since at least one of the worlds in 
> my campaign has a Class A starport and a TL of around 9.
> 
> Much obliged! 

No problem. Glad that the ship might finally see some action...  *sigh*

Oh well, the upcoming year will contain a lot more RPGs than the latest five years, since I move back to my home town and main group... finally...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 13:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Aug 12 12:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D53003A.1070102@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020809190742.B3949@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D540E41.1040509@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020810113922.D5883@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3D58064C.4020008@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Timothy Little wrote:
> Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
>>The fact that they all share remarkable similarities in background
>>story is mere coincidence ;-)
> 
> 
> Sort of makes a shambles of the acronym "OTU" though :(

Nope, not at all, there's a CT OTU, a MT OTU, a GT OTU...

The problem is that you're trying to view several discrete objects as 
points along a continuum, when in fact they're not.

Note, between TNE, MT, and GT there are no less than three considerably 
different *qualitiative* timelines in the "OTU".

We spend vast amounts of time trying to reconcile different historical 
theories between versions of the game using *qualitative measures* ('Who 
was Arbatrella?') that end up widely divergent, its not at all 
unexpected that *quantitative* measures ('How much trade goes through 
this world?') will never be workable; there's just *way* too much data 
missing, and worse, the data is heavily skewed toward one particular 
aspect, the PC, and small tramp starship traffic, mainly in a single, 
backwater sector, riven by frequent wars.

Quantitatively measuring trade in the 'OTU' is like trying to determine 
predictive measures of trade balances and deficits between, say China 
and the United States, by looking at cross Indian Ocean dhow cargo 
traffic alone.

I'm sure you can come up with all sorts of pretty equations, charts and 
trend lines, but their relationship to reality will be due only to sheer 
coincidence. GIGO.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 13:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas R Glatz)
Date: Mon Aug 12 12:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Broken Links: Anyone know where they really are now?
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 12 Aug 2002 00:16:40 EDT."
 <pp6eluc7hj57m61c5ff320m97pc6ntf431@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020812194740.2ED362793F@mail.travellercentral.com>

> ><http://www.teleport.com/~douglas> - Douglas Glatz home page (also lin=
ks to pages below this location)


Teleport got bought out by Earthlink, and since I started my own hosting =
company anyway, I declined their services.  My home page is at http://dou=
glas.coonpanion.com, my traveller pages are now located at http://travell=
er.geekoids.com

douglas


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 15:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 12 14:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Landgrab Pagaton submission
Message-ID: <ae.2b69ddaa.2a897cce@aol.com>

at http://members.aol.com/exog/myhomepage/pagaton.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 15:10:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ken Murphy)
Date: Mon Aug 12 14:10:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Disintegrators, Dragon style
Message-ID: <F21UrxkQTffgaTuOHti00008e66@hotmail.com>

Daniel comments: I have a few really old Dragons. I acquired them
>recently, and haven't really read them yet. You
>wouldn't have a clue as to which issue, or maybe the
>year of the issue?

   Nope, I'm sorry Dan. I'd originally gotten the info off an acquaintence's 
Dragon CD set :(
  -Ken-

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 15:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Hamill)
Date: Mon Aug 12 14:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Complete Idiocy (was Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #915 - 25 msgs)
In-Reply-To: <20020812165303.25790.64770.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020812213351.67066.qmail@web21510.mail.yahoo.com>

Jeff Zeitlin wrote:

"Message: 19
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 10:00:25 -0400
Organization: None To Speak Of
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #915 - 25 msgs
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com

On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 00:48:02 -0700, John Hamill
<jwdh71@yahoo.com> 
wrote:

>Message: 19
>Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 22:30:10 -0700 (PDT)
>From: John Hamill <jwdh71@yahoo.com>
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>Subject: [TML] Adventure: Frontier Rescue
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
> 
> 
>

...and that was it.  John, care to try again?  And
maybe try copying
submissions@freelancetraveller.com in the process?
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com"

Sorry about that Mr Zeitlin, my webmail service seems
to have a mind of its own sometimes. I had just
started writing the e-mail containing the prologue
when my web-browser hiccupped, and suprise! e-mail
without any content. (Meaning no words, not my usual
e-mail which has no content even with words;-) I'll
try not to let that happen again. Mea Culpa, Mea
Maxima Culpa.

John
jwdh71@yahoo.com


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 15:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Aug 12 14:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <200208121926.MQC00016@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020812141413.009e30c0@mindspring.com>

At 03:26 PM 8/12/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Daniel Tackett asks
> >THanks for the links. Phoenix command is just free
> >online rules now? BITs is only 8 bucks so why not?
>
>At Close Quarters is an add-on for Traveller - it's combat
>rules.
>
>Phoenix Command is not free - you would need the books (4th
>Edition basic rules, plus extensions).  The web site you're
>looking at is put up by gearheads who love it.
>
>Most people would probably prefer ACQ - unless you're an
>ultra gearhead.  Do you and your friends constantly discuss
>the minutiae of combat and weapons?  If not, then you'll be
>happier with ACQ.  If you do discuss minutiae like this, to
>the exclusion of roleplaying (i.e., you like doing this sort
>of thing with miniatures), then Phoenix Command will make you
>happy.

Without tooting my horn too much...

ACQ was designed with the idea that it isn't weapons that decide 
firefights, it's the people using those weapons.  Tactical decisions are 
everything, and the difference between surviving and eating lead is 
measured in split-second decisions.  Do you move from cover now, or what 
for the other guy to make a move?

In my experience very few Traveller gun fights take place in open 
areas.  The are all confined to cramped areas like starships, startown 
alleyways, ancient ruins, so that's what I aimed for in the early design 
phase.  The key is controlling yourself and making every Action Point 
count.  It doesn't matter if you do everything right if you are caught 
flat-footed and unable to respond when the other guy makes his moves.

To this end I studied what the USMC calls CQB... Close Quarters 
Battle.  What I found surprised me.  Very few troops in CQB actually aim 
their weapons.  At point-blank range they don't have the time, and consider 
it better to blow a few rounds in the general direction of an 
enemy.  (Note: this does not apply to such specialists as SEAL Team 6 and 
the SAS, but these guys have APPs in the mid-twenties, and can afford to 
spend some on aiming actions.)  Combatants creep along hallways, using 
every piece of cover.  Actual combat when it comes is intense and 
quick.  During the Battle of Hue in 1968, the average firefight with the VC 
came at less than 10 meters, and lasted less than 30 seconds before one 
side was either killed or withdrew.  Reading police reports of actions 
against drug labs and crack houses revealed similar action statements.

That's what James and I wanted; a tense game of sliding down darkened 
corridors, pistol clenched in a sweaty hand, trying to get the drop on the 
Ine Givar holding the Admiral's daughter hostage, knowing that there might 
be a sentry around the corner.  I think we succeeded.  On those occasions 
when I've had the pleasure on running playtests or tournaments, I've 
noticed something interesting.

On the first run through, players burn all their AP running up and blasting 
away.  They then die when they get caught in the open with no AP left.  By 
the second or third game, they are acting like combatants, using available 
cover, working as a team, giving covering fire.. all the things that happen 
in real-life without a system that bogs down in minutiae of weapon 
performance.  I've received compliments on the system from combat veterans 
and police officers.

That, and you can throw penguins as weapons.  What more could you want?


-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is
that I am now a perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague
here is rapidly running out of limbs!"
   - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 16:00:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug 12 15:00:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
Message-ID: <200208122159.MQH03009@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry says
>ACQ was designed with the idea that it isn't weapons that 
>decide  firefights, it's the people using those weapons.  

That's the main reason I use Phoenix Command - You can not 
only misuse your action, though.  There is something called 
initiative time, which is the time required to think about 
the next set of actions.

As an example: Doug has an Intelligence Skill Factor of 21.  
This means his Initiative Time is 8, and Action Number is 5 
(don't confuse Action Number with Action Count, which is the 
number of actions that one can take in 2 seconds).

Doug has just entered a building and is hiding around the 
corner of a corridor.  Somewhere down the corridor is a room 
from which an opponent is firing.  Doug decides to peek 
around the corner and duck back.  This decision takes 8 AC.  
So, 8 AC later he looks around the corner (1 AC) and ducks 
back (1 AC).

Donovan saw an empty corridor with two doors.  The first door 
seems to be the one from which he hears gunfire.  He decides 
to set down his rifle, arm a grenade, draw his pistol, run 
down the corridor, and toss the grenade through the open 
door.  a total of 5 separate actions.  This course of action 
takes 8 AC to devise, so after 8 AC, he proceeds with his 
plan.

Under circumstances where it is not safe to spend the time 
thinking about what to do next, you have to run to the 
nearest safe place (or hide where you are and think some 
more).  It's still possible to react defensively as well, but 
any action that implies personal initiative (such as 
attacking the enemy) requires thought.

The leadership skill has an effect on the initiative time of 
members in the group, as well as an effect on morale.

Combat now takes place on a more realistic time line - 
assuming that at least one team attempts to take coordinated 
action.  There can be substantial periods of silence between 
shots and movement as each side attempts (at the very least 
on an individual basis) to coordinate movements.  Then there 
are bursts of intense action.  A unit with a higher average 
initiative time, and a good leader, will be able to keep up 
the pressure and remain on the offensive, regardless of 
weapon type.  The badly led unit of combat-inexperienced PCs 
will be unable to go on the offensive, and will be swept away.

Overall, it's a lot of bookkeeping - a lot more than for 
ACQ.  But if you're striving for more detail...
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 16:13:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Mon Aug 12 15:13:06 2002
Subject: [TML] ArchiveX/All Good Things...
Message-ID: <3D583148.8FF27481@mail.cswnet.com>

Hey, thanks Leslie. That helps a little bit. Now if I can just find my
stuff and Larsens.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 16:22:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (KevinC)
Date: Mon Aug 12 15:22:06 2002
Subject: [TML] ATTN: Bryan Borich
Message-ID: <3D5834EF.114D8757@cnetech.com>

Bryan,

Please contact me off-list.

-- 
KevinC               Pentapod's World of 2300AD
kevinc@cnetech.com   http://www.geocities.com/pentapod2300/
                     http://go.to/PentapodsWorld


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 16:27:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 12 15:27:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
Message-ID: <42.2ba9b019.2a898fd1@cs.com>

In a message dated 8/11/02 3:55:26 PM Central Daylight Time, 
lesbates@minn.net writes:


> At 04:33 PM 8/11/2002 -0400, Mark Urbin wrote:
> 
> 
> >Yes.  Afleck is just a bit too 'pretty' for Trask. Perhaps as Prince 
> Bentrik.
> 
> Kenneth Branaugh (sp?) as Prince Bentrik.
> 
> >Now...who to play Otto Harkaman?
> 
> Twenty years ago I would have gone with Clint Eastwood as Harkaman. Need
> someone really tall.
> 
> 
> Les
> 
> 

Jeff Goldblum? Just need to make sure he doesn't slouch over so much.

Doug Grimes


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 20:45:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug 12 19:45:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
Message-ID: <200208130059.MQN01926@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

>Doug Grimes says
>Jeff Goldblum? Just need to make sure he doesn't slouch over 
so much.


No, it should be David Bowie.  He's a much better actor than 
a singer, and he's got a great presence.  He can be 
appropriately mysterious.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 20:47:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 12 19:47:17 2002
Subject: [TML] High Tech Movie Making
Message-ID: <196.b637a0e.2a89b083@aol.com>

Flipping through a recent FINE SCALE MODELER, I discovered an article on ILMs 
chief model maker for Attack of the Clones . . . I was a little surprised to 
discover how much actual, physical model making still takes place in movies, 
primarily for complicated sets. Basically, the build an arena, cityscape, or 
whatever, and digitize the actors onto it. 

Evidently is is still vastly easier to get good looking shots this way than 
creating them 100% on the computer, at least for some types of shots. Perhaps 
Jesse knows more about this than I do, it being his business and all.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 20:49:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon Aug 12 19:49:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <OF9A9D1E69.C3593D67-ONCA256C12.00808BF3@dnsalias.com>
References: <OF9A9D1E69.C3593D67-ONCA256C12.00808BF3@dnsalias.com>
Message-ID: <m3fzxjr2q8.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Angus McDonald" <angus@dancrai.com> writes:
>
> Forgive a newbie, but wouldn't your point be that cutting trade off
> with the rest of the world would not crash the Phillippines economy?

No--because trade with the Phillipines approximates the amount of
trade a Traveller world has with the Imperium.  It's a mere fraction
of a percent.  Now, it very well might hurt the Phillipines--but we're
not talking about the world's effect on a particular archipelago, but
rather that archipelago's effect on the world.  Which is deuced small.

And, remarkably enough, what the published figures imply must be the
Imperium's economic effect on each of its member planets.

Now, that's a state I can admire: lets its member states do
essentially as they will; interferes very little with their economies;
levies light taxes.  Would bring a tear to a Founder's eye...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Y'see the _real_ reason infantry is the only arm that can take _and_
hold ground is that it's the only one that can't run away.
                                          --Rupert Boleyn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 20:51:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon Aug 12 19:51:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <OFED183D4C.6BA32B37-ONCA256C13.000A8F10@dnsalias.com>
References: <OFED183D4C.6BA32B37-ONCA256C13.000A8F10@dnsalias.com>
Message-ID: <m3bs87r262.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Angus McDonald" <angus@dancrai.com> writes:
>
> Interstellar trade, if it exists at all, will either be high-value
> good for high-value good, or low-value bulk goods for high-value
> goods.  I can imagine a planet sending its mineral resources
> offworld (especially if radioactives) in return for a small amount
> of high-value offworld goods.  The effect of cutting that off?
> You'd probably bankrupt the mining companies, inconvenience people
> relying on the offworld products and perhaps cause a lot of civil
> unrest (why'd I lose my lucrative mining job?).

That's the beauty of money in a market: it doesn't matter _what_ the
good is which is being traded, or what the other goods on the economy
are: the relative values are all fixed by the various market forces
involved.  It doesn't matter if a planet is selling a lot of minerals
for a little bit of Venusian algae-wine, or if it's exporting a few
pints of jewel-critters for 14 tons of wheat; what matters is the
value of the goods exported, the value of the goods imported and the
value of the goods which are produced & consumed within the economy.

So far, the official numbers seem to indicate that there's not an
awful lot of trade in relative terms.  This is not awfully surprising:
it's expensive to put stuff up into orbit and expensive to ship it.

> A lot of this depends upon the Traveller trade rules, and whether
> your hi-pop world relies on imported Imperium high tech devices
> much.

Once again, if they relied on the devices, then the demand would be
higher, and thus the price thereof would be higher, and thus the
fraction of the economy taken up by the devices would be higher.  That
it's not indicates that the prices _aren't_ higher, that the demand
_isn't_ higher and that the devices--while poss. relied upon--are not
relied upon that much, after all.

> I guess the argument is that a hi-pop world must be pretty much
> self-sufficient in order to survive at all, given that interstellar
> trade is so small.  To be hi-pop at all the world must be providing
> most of their own food/water, and _probably_ has a diverse
> industrial base.

There's that as well.  It's just not economical to import life
support.  That's part of the reason that we've not done an awful lot
of space exploration.  Any world is going to naturally grow until
people are at the edge of the comfort limit; a high population world
must therefore be one with a lot of resources to go around.

> The most likely change is political (is this where this thread
> started?) as the government steps in to nationalise the offworlder
> capital base and guarantee jobs/survival.  You almost certainly
> would have riots as people were fired and lost their jobs, slacking
> off once the government stepped in to put them back at work.

More likely is that the value of off-world goods would skyrocket as
trade declined, thus making trade more profitable, thus ensuring that
trade doesn't decline.  Unless some third party gums the gears, in
which off-world goods become priceless and local labour must work to
create alternatives, which will result in a less efficient economy,
certainly, but not necessarily a collapsed one.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I know not what course others may take but as for me, give me liberty
or give me death.                                     --Patrick Henry

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 20:53:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 19:53:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
Message-ID: <20020813011625.95E63450E@mo110usjc.palm.net>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 20:55:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon Aug 12 19:55:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <OF6637FD53.2C67D73A-ONCA256C13.0023873E@dnsalias.com>
References: <OF6637FD53.2C67D73A-ONCA256C13.0023873E@dnsalias.com>
Message-ID: <m37kivr1kd.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Angus McDonald" <angus@dancrai.com> writes:
>
> I'm not familiar with the GT:FT rules, it sounds like we agree that
> more trade is desirable.

I like 'em.  And they are consistent with what one would expect:
there's no real reason that a high population, high tech world _can't_
adapt to produce whatever is needed.  Absent a good explanation, I
don't think that gameplay issues should trump reality (those bits of
the game which are utterly unrealistic are IMHO fairly well-reasoned).

> If it mirrors 'modern' economics then hi-tech worlds will import
> stuff that can be produced more cheaply elsewhere, whilst lo-tech
> worlds will try to become the sweatshop of choice for hi-tech worlds
> in order to get enough credits to become hi-tech themselves.

Not just produced more cheaply: produced and shipped more cheaply for
value received.  The same effect holds IRL, of course: it may be that
Kansas wine may be cheaper to produce, but it's not enough better that
it's worth shipping to Denver--and thus I've never seen a bottle of
Kansan wine, while I've seen many Coloradan wines.

Of course, other factors are at play IRL (tariffs, crossing state
lines and all that entails &c.), but the point stands: an imported
good must be (or perceived to be) overall cheaper per unit of value in
order for it to exist.

For many goods, it just doesn't make sense to import them if local
production can accomodate 'em.  Sure, you'll have small quantities of
off-world grain, off-world spices &c. (esp. for the snob market), but
most grain will be grown at home.

IMHO, in a space-faring society without almost-free shipping, most
trade will be in luxuries.  There's always the planetary noble (or
elected representative, for that matter...) who will want genuine
Spanish saffron, or Reginan brandy, or what-have-you.  But most folks
will deal with the local variant: it's massively cheaper, and almost
as good.

And _please_ trim the tails of your posts:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I have sustained a continual bombardment & cannonade for 24 hours & have
not lost a man.  The enemy has demanded a surrender at discretion,
otherwise the garrison are to be put to the sword if the fort is taken.
I have answered the demand with a cannon shot, and our flag still waves
proudly from the walls.  I shall never surrender nor retreat.
                                         --William B. Travis

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 20:57:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon Aug 12 19:57:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020812082551.01a17e18@192.168.0.1>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020812082551.01a17e18@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <m33ctjr1ew.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> writes:
> 
> Hmmm....this is an interesting hobby for a crew during Jump, film
> making.  Shoot scenes against a blue screen, add the background in
> the editing process.  Re-edit to match the culture of the planet
> you're en-route to.

Unless the destination is a real back-water (on the order of a
research station staffed by a scientist, two assistants and the
scientist's attractive daughter...), I don't think they'd make much
selling the product.

With a population so large as to be nearly incalculable, the artistic
community of the Third Imperium is bound to be _excellent_; the best
the world has ever seen, for some value of best (note RL, where
Hollywood--despite its flaws--does better than anyone else).  It'll be
very difficult for a tramp ship's crew to compete...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
To add to the confusion, there are many even less specific `-illions'
out there, like `a bazillion,' which, I've been told, can be as high
as 100,000,000 if you're counting jellybeans, and as low as 32 if
you're counting, say, gunshot wounds.            --Howard Taylor

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 21:00:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Aug 12 20:00:04 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <02081114275201.00604@linux>
Message-ID: <20812.154001.2B4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>          Can humans  guarantee a self sufficient base on mars anytime
> soon?  On the moon?.  What is the lowest tech level where this could
> be possible?

As I've pointed out before, TL 3 *easily* suffices for maintaining a
colony on a world in the life zone with a vacuum atmosphere. TL2 might.

Thin/very thin aren't a lot harder. It's just that you have to worry
about weather effects.

*Establishing* a colony would be a different matter. As would trying to
keep a xcolony going in the face of TLs that are dropping.

On the other hand, a lot of what would be needed is stuff that's mostly
a good idea for a long term colony anyway, such as combining air regen,
sewage disposal and food production into an integrated system based on
systems being used *now* for sewage treatment. The only problem with
such systems is that they do require a fair bit of space.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 21:02:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Aug 12 20:02:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
In-Reply-To: <F127V8MoyGnyxrDyfbX00007185@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20812.152540.9v8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>      "I suggest constant suggestions that the young hellion requires an
> immediate bath."
>
>
> Mr. Berry,
>
>      Thank you for the additional ammunition sir!  My threats of "I'll sell 
> you for medical experiments" and "I'll mail you to the undertaker" have lost 
> their luster.

If he's young enougfh, the threat to introduce him to some gurrrrls
ought to be effective as well. The power of "girl cooties" as a threat
is quite impressive.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 21:04:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Aug 12 20:04:45 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811221941.0296bbc8@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20812.154727.3P4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Let's dig out my copy of the Traveller Book...TL 5
> c. 1900-1939   Early computers...visions of TL 9 and A percomps being used 
> to run life support systems...

Who say you *need* computers to run life support? It's easily doable
with *much* older tech than that. 

Life support on ships is apt to be the LiOH and activated charcoal
"scrubbers" that the Shuttle uses. 

In the colonies, it'll be hydroponics or even gardens/farms.

> Keeping old surplus small craft running using local parts...Vac suits that 
> look like diving suits...

Vacuum suits aren't that difficulty a problem in some ways. The hard
parts are things like equal volume joints. Which can be handled by
"bellows" type arrangements, or by rotation joints as are found on deep
diving "hardsuits". 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 21:07:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Aug 12 20:07:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
In-Reply-To: <3d55f441.2663671@post.demon.co.uk>
References: <F24qs1wP7vvqgqGTwgT0000593c@hotmail.com>
 <3D556531.21647.F79DE@localhost> <3d55f441.2663671@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <p04330100b97df3823b41@[143.232.119.186]>

At 11:18 AM +0000 8/10/02, Stephen Tempest wrote:
>Well, naturally they didn't have much trouble "persuading" the local
>inhabitants... they *are* dirty mindraping brainwashing Joe scum,
>after all...

My groups was joking that the official Imperial designation of the 
Zhodani seemed to the "_perfidious_ Zhodani".  That was right before 
we ran there Traveller adventure where there is a display on "Zhodani 
perfidity".   :-)
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 21:09:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Mon Aug 12 20:09:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020812141413.009e30c0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020812235640.1163.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>

 Okay, I just thought Phoenix command was free
,because I didn't see a place to order it. I see now
that the page is not a catalog;rather a fansite.
I'll probably try bits first. When I find a way to
purchase the Phoenix rules,I'll give them a look.
Strange, the CT rules say that folding stocks give you
nothing but -1 from medium to very long. and no
adjustment for close and short. After all my talk. Oh well.

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 21:11:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Aug 12 20:11:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Lanth subsector navies IMTU
In-Reply-To: <3D580C0E.7F070297@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3D58F224.15940.552818@localhost>

On 12 Aug 2002 at 14:27, Roseberry wrote:

> Lanth subsector naval forces, done with budgets from Meduim Navies.
> All is IMTU; YMMV.
> 
> Notes:
> Imperial Navy ships mostly drawn from Supplement 9.
> Imperial Scout Service ships drawn from Supplements 7 and 9, along
> with HGS for the Type S Scout ships.
> Colonial and Planetary ships exclusively using HGS.
> 
> I have about 10-12 pages of just usp=92s for the ships listed below, so =
if
> your interested in any particular one drop me a note and I=92ll send it
> out to you. I tried to use the Imperial Data Package model for the
> colonial ships. This is apparent in the use of the F-5 I Tiger units.
> The F-5, in each of its formats, is 15dt and carries a tripple missile
> turret. The Type S scouts are done in the same fashion, with the TL11
> Scout being the one most familiar 2g, j2, etc, the TL10 and 9 Scouts are
> 2g, j1. Alot of fighters are used simply because there cheap. The Lanth
> subsector doesn't have a HI POP world, so cheap firepower is the order
> of the day.

One question - Why do the system navies have so many ships and seem to 
lack monitors, SDBs and other non-jump capable vessels?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 21:13:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Aug 12 20:13:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020812141413.009e30c0@mindspring.com>
References: <200208121926.MQC00016@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D58F42A.16252.5D0EB1@localhost>

On 12 Aug 2002 at 14:32, Douglas Berry wrote:

> To this end I studied what the USMC calls CQB... Close Quarters
> Battle.  What I found surprised me.  Very few troops in CQB actually
> aim their weapons.  At point-blank range they don't have the time,
> and consider it better to blow a few rounds in the general direction
> of an enemy.  (Note: this does not apply to such specialists as SEAL
> Team 6 and the SAS, but these guys have APPs in the mid-twenties,
> and can afford to spend some on aiming actions.)  Combatants creep
> along hallways, using every piece of cover.  Actual combat when it
> comes is intense and quick.  During the Battle of Hue in 1968, the
> average firefight with the VC came at less than 10 meters, and
> lasted less than 30 seconds before one side was either killed or
> withdrew.  Reading police reports of actions against drug labs and
> crack houses revealed similar action statements. 

To this end the NZ Army's 1st Battalion (the full-time grunts) has 
designed a 'sling' for the Steyr AUG that makes it very easy to hold 
'at the ready' against the shoulder (it works mainly because the AUG is 
very butt-heavy) for long periods so that it takes no time to bring the 
weapon up. This cuts the time taken to responed to the sudden appearnce 
of the enemy substantially, and because you don't have to make a sudden 
move (bring the weapon up) there is less chance that they'll realise 
you've seen them and open up.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 21:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Aug 12 20:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <200208122159.MQH03009@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020812162729.009e2030@mindspring.com>

At 05:59 PM 8/12/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry says
> >ACQ was designed with the idea that it isn't weapons that
> >decide  firefights, it's the people using those weapons.
>
>That's the main reason I use Phoenix Command - You can not
>only misuse your action, though.  There is something called
>initiative time, which is the time required to think about
>the next set of actions.

Which is covered in ACQ by having Int be one of the determining factors in 
you Action Point Pool

>As an example: Doug has an Intelligence Skill Factor of 21.
>This means his Initiative Time is 8, and Action Number is 5
>(don't confuse Action Number with Action Count, which is the
>number of actions that one can take in 2 seconds).

ACQ:  I have a Dex of about 5 these days (epilepsy and medication means 
that I am less than cooridinated) and an Int of 12.  Add in Tactics-2, and 
my APP is (12+5)/2=8.5, round to 9, add 2 for tactics skill, 11.

>Doug has just entered a building and is hiding around the
>corner of a corridor.  Somewhere down the corridor is a room
>from which an opponent is firing.  Doug decides to peek
>around the corner and duck back.  This decision takes 8 AC.
>So, 8 AC later he looks around the corner (1 AC) and ducks
>back (1 AC).

The Referee rules that a quick peak costs 2AP.  I'm down to 9.

>Donovan saw an empty corridor with two doors.  The first door
>seems to be the one from which he hears gunfire.  He decides
>to set down his rifle, arm a grenade, draw his pistol, run
>down the corridor, and toss the grenade through the open
>door.  a total of 5 separate actions.  This course of action
>takes 8 AC to devise, so after 8 AC, he proceeds with his
>plan.

Set down the weapon, 1AP, ready the grenade 2AP.  You didn't say how far 
down the corridor the door was, but I'll assume 3 meters.  3AP to move down 
the corridor.  Down to 3AP

>Under circumstances where it is not safe to spend the time
>thinking about what to do next, you have to run to the
>nearest safe place (or hide where you are and think some
>more).  It's still possible to react defensively as well, but
>any action that implies personal initiative (such as
>attacking the enemy) requires thought.

Since I don't really want to be in the middle of the corridor whith that 
few AP, I sit at the intersection with my rifle ready.  If someone comes 
out of the door, I do an action/reaction task with him.  Winner moves 
first.  For example, he wins, sees me aiming at him, and dives back through 
the door.  Or I win and take my shot.

>The leadership skill has an effect on the initiative time of
>members in the group, as well as an effect on morale.
>
>Combat now takes place on a more realistic time line -
>assuming that at least one team attempts to take coordinated
>action.  There can be substantial periods of silence between
>shots and movement as each side attempts (at the very least
>on an individual basis) to coordinate movements.  Then there
>are bursts of intense action.  A unit with a higher average
>initiative time, and a good leader, will be able to keep up
>the pressure and remain on the offensive, regardless of
>weapon type.  The badly led unit of combat-inexperienced PCs
>will be unable to go on the offensive, and will be swept away.

In ACQ this is handled by setting high-APP characters to watch over the 
lower ones.  Having a large APP makes it easier to interrupt another's action.

>Overall, it's a lot of bookkeeping - a lot more than for
>ACQ.  But if you're striving for more detail...

The extreme level of detail in PC was one of the things that drove me to 
start work on ACQ.

>

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 21:17:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Mon Aug 12 20:17:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Fwd: Penguin Airlines??
In-Reply-To: <20020812152722.57956.qmail@web11004.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000201c24261$a126a300$6501a8c0@Darla>

Caution!  The link in the original message caused my McAfee Internet
Security program to alert that it was attempting to send personal
information from my machine back to the site.

Tom Barnes


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 22:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon Aug 12 21:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <3D58064C.4020008@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux>
 <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <02080817101100.00601@linux>
 <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3D53003A.1070102@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <20020809190742.B3949@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3D540E41.1040509@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <20020810113922.D5883@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3D58064C.4020008@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <m3lm7bplvq.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:
> 
> Quantitatively measuring trade in the 'OTU' is like trying to
> determine predictive measures of trade balances and deficits
> between, say China and the United States, by looking at cross Indian
> Ocean dhow cargo traffic alone.

ROTFLMAO...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Oatmeal is, of course, divine food of the gods or horsefood dressed up
for human consumption, depending on your disposition.  It's one of
those Marmite things.                                   --Sherilyn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 22:45:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon Aug 12 21:45:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Failed Worlds
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNOEAHEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNOEAHEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <m3y9bbpmgf.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Terry Carlino" <carlino@cox.net> writes:
> 
> Of course this brings up the fact that the system rules are also
> broken.  Under First In for example, worlds in a system other than
> the main world can have a sizable population.  As a matter of fact
> each world in the system can have a population almost as great as
> the main world.  As a matter of fact FI states that if two worlds in
> a system have the same population then the main world is the one in
> the star's life zone.

All that makes sense.  The CT method, in which there is (sorta) only
one world per system is not very believable, after all.  Of course,
neither are 2D jump maps, but we want a game a sane ref can track.

> There is a fix that would allow the number as published to be
> used. That is to count both the population and trade numbers as
> representative of the system instead of the main world.  Trade
> classification modifiers, which are related directly to the main
> world, should not be a problem, because the main world will
> generally be the best world in the system for habitation.  No other
> world in the system should be in a position to get better modifiers
> than the main world.

This is essentially what I had assumed.  Either that, or calculate
trade numbers per world, not per system.  That works well, too,
although it makes things a bit messy on the starport level (it being
kinda-canon that there's generally only one starport, and it's on the
main world, although there are exceptions).

> This has other aspects as well, which could be useful.  Balkanized
> **systems**, as opposed to worlds, would be possible, opening up
> tickets for those spacer merc units described in SM.

Again, something I'd assumed as a matter of course.  Perhaps I don't
read the rules closely enough:-)

> If the whole system is occupied (as is likely for a space faring
> civilization) then the Highport could be in the out skirts of the
> system, to better reduce jump masking and minimize the time ships
> spend enroute to the starport.

I'm not certain if that would be the best solution.  It might be that
each world has its own starport.  The problem with a remote highport
is increased transit time.  Anyone care to run the numbers?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
There's nothing in human experience compared to which a sendmail
config file could be considered simple.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 22:45:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon Aug 12 21:45:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure: Frontier Rescue
In-Reply-To: <20020812111141.33337.qmail@web21505.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020812111141.33337.qmail@web21505.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <m3hehzpluv.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

John Hamill <jwdh71@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> I will post the rest of the adventure as short fiction, if anyone is
> interested.

Yes, please...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
To believe in gun control, one has to believe that guns are not an
effective means of self-defence, which is why police carry them.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 22:46:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 12 21:46:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveler Minatures
Message-ID: <2d.218104f4.2a89cadf@aol.com>

>  AT one time RAFM manufactured a bunch of Traveler mins.
>Do they still make them?

Not that I know of -- I think the license expired. Check with Marc. If he has 
no objection, and RAFM still has the molds, you might be able to talk them 
into making a limited run provided you (or a consortium) can guarantee to 
sell a certain minimum number in one lump. This has been done several times 
by Space: 1889 fans over the last couple of years -- you just have to make it 
worth RAFM's while to melt and pour the metal.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 22:47:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug 12 21:47:01 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <3D58064C.4020008@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux> <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D53003A.1070102@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020809190742.B3949@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D540E41.1040509@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020810113922.D5883@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D58064C.4020008@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020813123534.B18707@freeman.little-possums.net>

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> The problem is that you're trying to view several discrete objects
> as points along a continuum, when in fact they're not.

Yes, that would be it.  I had thought that GT was only intended to
diverge just prior to Dulinor's attempt at regicide.


> their relationship to reality will be due only to sheer
> coincidence. GIGO.

Yes, I've been saying that the GT:FT trade volume rules are garbage
for some time.  People didn't listen last time...


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 22:47:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug 12 21:47:25 2002
Subject: Armor Schemes (was: Re: [TML] mines)
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1029171921.7515.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020810180812.B6285@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1029171921.7515.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020813124627.C18707@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> the outer layer will disintegrate the missile, vastly reducing penetration
> against the inner layers.

Only when the thickness of armour is also comparable to or greater
than the projectile's length.


>  The problem with spaced armor is that realistically it's _less_
> effective than normal armor against lasers, or against any sort of
> projectile that doesn't disintegrate on impact.

Umm, lasers *do* disintegrate on impact.  They're pretty much
equivalent to the limit as mass->0 of missile behaviour.

Unless you mean continuous beam lasers a la Babylon 5 rather than an
energy pulse.  A serial impactor stream would behave in much the same
way.


> OTOH, there's no real reason to have empty spaces in the armor; just
> about any non-critical components can plausibly be put between the
> hull layers.

It is far less clear that the plasma jet will disperse effectively if
you fill the space with random stuff.  It might be efficiently
channelled to the next layer.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 22:47:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug 12 21:47:56 2002
Subject: [TML] Great book
In-Reply-To: <200208121345.MPR01625@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208121345.MPR01625@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020813125227.D18707@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> I think it has more to do with the duration of the impulse as well.
> An artillery shell only has to put up with the 100,000g shock for a
> split second.

Oh, is that all you meant?  I thought you actually meant 10,000 gees
acceleration sustained for at least a second or so. 8-O

Yes, a GURPS Orion drive would deliver at least a few thousand gees in
the sense of peak acceleration of any component of the system.  It's
only the mean acceleration that is relatively low.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 22:49:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 21:49:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <200208130059.MQN01926@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020812225012.029b39a8@192.168.0.1>

At 08:59 PM 8/12/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> >Doug Grimes says
> >Jeff Goldblum? Just need to make sure he doesn't slouch over
>so much.
>No, it should be David Bowie.  He's a much better actor than
>a singer, and he's got a great presence.  He can be
>appropriately mysterious.

I don't know.  Harkaman is supposed to have this large, menacing physical 
presence.
Real "you don't want to fuck with me" presence.

The second paragraph in Chapter 3 starts with:
Otto Harkaman swore disgustedly and shoved the sergeant aside.
"Make way, here!"' he bellowed.--Let these guards pass." With that,
he almost hurled a gailv-dressed gentleman aside on either hand;
they both turned to glare angrily , then got hastily out of his way .

That's why I'd go with Howie Long or Dolph Lundgren for the role.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Vikings? There ain't no Vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was
burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway.
That's our story and we're sticking to it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 22:49:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug 12 21:49:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <OF6637FD53.2C67D73A-ONCA256C13.0023873E@dnsalias.com>
References: <OF6637FD53.2C67D73A-ONCA256C13.0023873E@dnsalias.com>
Message-ID: <20020813131253.E18707@freeman.little-possums.net>

Angus McDonald wrote:
> If it mirrors 'modern' economics then hi-tech worlds will import
> stuff that can be produced more cheaply elsewhere, whilst lo-tech
> worlds will try to become the sweatshop of choice for hi-tech worlds
> in order to get enough credits to become hi-tech themselves.

Yes, that's the idea.  The high-tech worlds can produce what they want
themselves; it's just cheaper to do it elsewhere.  If the low-tech
worlds want any high-tech goods, they *have* to trade for them.


> In terms of GWP, it might well be that imports/exports are a greater
> % for the lo-tech worlds

It would depend upon relative populations among other things.  


> e.g. GDP goes up every time a parent returns to the workforce, while
> they put their kids into daycare, but society is not necessarily
> better off

Society?  Maybe or maybe not.

It is virtually certain that the parent in question thinks they are
better off though.  The daycare centre is very likely better off (or
they aren't charging enough!), and so are the vendors who supply any
other extra goods the parent buys with the extra income.  The employer
is better off, too.

The child may or may not be better off.  Unlike the rest, the child
had little part in any of the decisions.

I agree, GWP isn't a measure of "quality of life".  It is a handy
figure for guesstimating relative economic importance of a system in
the big picture, though.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 22:49:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 21:49:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
In-Reply-To: <m33ctjr1ew.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020812082551.01a17e18@192.168.0.1>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020812082551.01a17e18@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020812230403.02060bb0@192.168.0.1>

At 07:29 PM 8/12/2002 -0600, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
>Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> writes:
> > Hmmm....this is an interesting hobby for a crew during Jump, film
> > making.  Shoot scenes against a blue screen, add the background in
> > the editing process.  Re-edit to match the culture of the planet
> > you're en-route to.
>Unless the destination is a real back-water (on the order of a
>research station staffed by a scientist, two assistants and the
>scientist's attractive daughter...), I don't think they'd make much
>selling the product.
>With a population so large as to be nearly incalculable, the artistic
>community of the Third Imperium is bound to be _excellent_; the best
>the world has ever seen, for some value of best (note RL, where
>Hollywood--despite its flaws--does better than anyone else).  It'll be
>very difficult for a tramp ship's crew to compete...

Bah!  The direct to video market does very well.
It's doing even better now, with digital editing technology driving down 
the post production costs.
Partially by keeping the cost down, and also by knowing where to market.
Even on TL F high population worlds, there will the equivalent of WalMart.

These people aren't trying to compete with major sector studios.
They are having fun and making a few credits on the side.

In the nearby city of Worcester, a fair sized New England city, with at 
least a half dozen college campuses in the city, which do you thinks draws 
more people:

Wrestling at the Centrum or the Worcester Art Museum?
For every one of the cultured, well educated folks in the Imperium, who 
truly appreciate the fine art of film making, there are a few hundred who 
think the Ramen & Whipsnade Road To films are the highest expression of 
film art produced by modern sophants.
There there are the folks who make them look highbrow...



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
I'm what love is all about. I've got American Teeth
and a Spanish Mouth -- Fernando (Billy Crystal)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 22:50:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 21:50:05 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in
 traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <20812.154727.3P4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811221941.0296bbc8@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020812231518.02567c80@192.168.0.1>

At 03:47 PM 8/12/2002 -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
> > Let's dig out my copy of the Traveller Book...TL 5
> > c. 1900-1939   Early computers...visions of TL 9 and A percomps being used
> > to run life support systems...
>Who say you *need* computers to run life support? It's easily doable
>with *much* older tech than that.

Not me.  But these are the sort of things they can easily pick up in trade.
Surplus handcomps for local art work.  If they can get them, they will use 
them.
Even if it's just to run the numbers instead of doing 'em by hand or having 
a room full of people with mechanical calculators.

>Life support on ships is apt to be the LiOH and activated charcoal
>"scrubbers" that the Shuttle uses.
>In the colonies, it'll be hydroponics or even gardens/farms.

Yup.

> > Keeping old surplus small craft running using local parts...Vac suits that
> > look like diving suits...
>Vacuum suits aren't that difficulty a problem in some ways. The hard
>parts are things like equal volume joints. Which can be handled by
>"bellows" type arrangements, or by rotation joints as are found on deep
>diving "hardsuits".

Hmmm...I think we're saying the same thing here, you are just supplying 
more detail.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Blend 'B', meanwhile, is a PROUD blend, defiant yet petulant...a blend
that grabs you, shakes you by the collar and cries, 'ACCEPT me, damn you,
or turn me away-BUT FOR GOD'S SAKE DON'T POLLUTE ME WITH NON-DAIRY
CREAMER!'" - Tripp Biscuit while coffee tasting.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 22:50:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug 12 21:50:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <m3bs87r262.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <OFED183D4C.6BA32B37-ONCA256C13.000A8F10@dnsalias.com> <m3bs87r262.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020813132633.F18707@freeman.little-possums.net>

Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> So far, the official numbers seem to indicate that there's not an
> awful lot of trade in relative terms.  This is not awfully surprising:
> it's expensive to put stuff up into orbit and expensive to ship it.

Actually, I find it *very* surprising.  It's really dirt-cheap to put
stuff up into orbit in Traveller, and cheaper than modern-day
airfreight to ship it to another star system a few parsecs away.

It works out to about the equivalent of US$1.20/kg to ship something
three parsecs DFD (US$0.55/lb); even cheaper on a regular freighter.
That's far from exorbitant.

I agree with the rest of your points in your post, though :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 22:52:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon Aug 12 21:52:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
In-Reply-To: <20812.152540.9v8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20812.152540.9v8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <m31y93o253.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
> 
> If he's young enougfh, the threat to introduce him to some gurrrrls
> ought to be effective as well.  The power of `girl cooties' as a
> threat is quite impressive.

And then, later on, it acquires a newfound power, albeit one in rather
the opposite direction...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
You know what the difference was in the Civil War between a rich
Yankee and a rich Southerner?  The rich Yankee paid someone to take
his place in the army, and the rich Southerner outfitted his own
regiment.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 22:52:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 21:52:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Strip Mime test
Message-ID: <20020813040342.03BE2451A@mo120usjc.palm.net>

--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
text/plain 
--- StripMime Errors ---
A message with no plaintext section was received.
The entire body of the message was removed.  Please
resend the email using plaintext formatting
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 22:53:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 21:53:06 2002
Subject: [TML] ping...
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020813002537.00cdca10@mail.charter.net>

12:25 AM Eastern Time

Waiting for a pong...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 12 23:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Mon Aug 12 22:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Economics (was: warship optimization)
In-Reply-To: <20020813044724.1608.72814.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentra
 l.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020813223521.00b68c50@mailhost.efn.org>

On Tue, 13 Aug 2002 12:35:34 +1000, Timothy Little 
<tim@freeman.little-possums.net> wrote:

>Yes, I've been saying that the GT:FT trade volume rules are garbage
>for some time.  People didn't listen last time...

Perhaps, but they are better than the previous iterations, some of which 
were little better than fiat.  The sad fact is that Traveller, for all of 
being a game about "merchants and mercenaries", has NEVER had working trade 
rules.

Discuss.  :)


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 00:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Mon Aug 12 23:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Test Ignore
In-Reply-To: <200208130059.MQN01926@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020813011220.00aae290@minn.net>

I think my mail server is being wierd.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 00:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Mon Aug 12 23:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lanth subsector navies IMTU
References: <3D580C0E.7F070297@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3D58A3B0.2070809@yarranet.net.au>

Roseberry wrote:

> Lanth subsector naval forces, done with budgets from Meduim Navies.
> All is IMTU; YMMV.


Hey Dan do you think you could do Aramis as of 1106?

Pretty please?

Phill
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/traveller/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 00:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 23:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] P B E Traveller campaign
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEHNIMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

If there is any interest, I'm thinking about 
running a non FTF :( game.

Ideally, if there was a irc chat channel savable 
I'd like to play there say weekly, if not it would 
be play by email.

Players 4-6, don't send me characters right off, but if
you want to think about it, skill outside a firefight
is very useful (Armed -- with a PGMP15 -- to the 'fresher 
is unneeded).

Situation:  player would be a special investigation 
team run out of the Duke of the Old Expanse's household.
 
________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 00:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug 12 23:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <m37kivr1kd.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <OF6637FD53.2C67D73A-ONCA256C13.0023873E@dnsalias.com> <m37kivr1kd.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020813163535.A19279@freeman.little-possums.net>

Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> For many goods, it just doesn't make sense to import them if local
> production can accomodate 'em.

However, the exceptions make up a very large fraction of a typical
economy.  Comparative advantage is especially powerful when the
various entities are economically very different from each other.  It
seems to me that the various worlds in Traveller are very different
indeed, in just about every respect that can be imagined!

That would normally indicate a massive economic advantage to trade
unless the cost of doing so was extraordinarily high.  And we know
that it isn't.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 00:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Mon Aug 12 23:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style
References: <F121PeKljq65Rn8P5o70000d29f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D58A9A5.2030706@yarranet.net.au>

Ken Murphy wrote:

>   Does anyone know what I'm talking about and have access to this 
> article, and if so, could I get a copy?


I think I have the issue at home.

A quick check at:
http://www.downport.com/traveller/ct/list.shtml
shows
* Issue 95: Antimissiles and Roundshot

Phill
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/traveller/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 00:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Mon Aug 12 23:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020812225012.029b39a8@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEHPIMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

At 08:59 PM 8/12/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> >Doug Grimes says
> >Jeff Goldblum? Just need to make sure he doesn't slouch over
>so much.
>No, it should be David Bowie.  He's a much better actor than
>a singer, and he's got a great presence.  He can be
>appropriately mysterious.

I don't know.  Harkaman is supposed to have this large, menacing physical 
presence.
Real "you don't want to fuck with me" presence.

The second paragraph in Chapter 3 starts with:
Otto Harkaman swore disgustedly and shoved the sergeant aside.
"Make way, here!"' he bellowed.--Let these guards pass." With that,
he almost hurled a gailv-dressed gentleman aside on either hand;
they both turned to glare angrily , then got hastily out of his way .

That's why I'd go with Howie Long or Dolph Lundgren for the role.





>>>>>>>>>

At the same time he is an intellectual, comfortable in loooonnnggggggggg
dissertations on history at the drop of a space helmet.  In his day,
Rutger Hauer might been a good Harkaman.  

I don't have the book at hand but Long would be good as Grav -- the head 
of the Space Viking bunch on plant when the Nemesis spaces in.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 01:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Tue Aug 13 00:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEHPIMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <000001c2429b$0826cd80$6401a8c0@GOCA>


-----Original Message-----


At the same time he is an intellectual, comfortable in loooonnnggggggggg
dissertations on history at the drop of a space helmet.  In his day,
Rutger Hauer might been a good Harkaman.  

I don't have the book at hand but Long would be good as Grav -- the head

of the Space Viking bunch on plant when the Nemesis spaces in.




Garvan Spasso?  Of the Space Scourge?
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 02:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Tue Aug 13 01:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <000001c2429b$0826cd80$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEICIMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>


At the same time he is an intellectual, comfortable in loooonnnggggggggg
dissertations on history at the drop of a space helmet.  In his day,
Rutger Hauer might been a good Harkaman.  

I don't have the book at hand but Long would be good as Grav -- the head

of the Space Viking bunch on plant when the Nemesis spaces in.




Garvan Spasso?  Of the Space Scourge?

>>>>>>>>

Could well be.  I'm relying on memory here.  

I seem to recall a ladies hand dangling something, but don't 
quote me.

One of the better scenes in the whole book is a Space Viking 
questioning someone.

"See this, it's a verifier, it turns blue if you lie.  If you lie, 
I will make sure you don't lie again."  he lifts the butt of his gun.

jml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 03:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Tue Aug 13 02:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Efate
References: <26B39E1664DDD311A1010008C7DB51FDEA9CE3@TIKITNT4>
Message-ID: <000d01c242aa$6c7cffc0$2d00a8c0@imogen>

Sebastian Rogers wrote:
> Just working on Efate from the point of view of a Striker campaign,
> and also the jump off point for the next Traveller Adventure, and
> wondered how the land grab is going?
>  
> Basically I was hoping to use anything you'd done so far.

I think it'll only take a few more  weeks  to  finish  the  Efate
landgrab.  I have the basic text plus  a  merc  adventure  pretty
much complete, I'm just finishing off the TOE of the Efate  Army.
This will include many of the frontline  vehicles  in  MT  format
(thanks to Anthony Farrell).

When do you need this by?  (I could post some of it incomplete if
need be.)

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 03:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 13 02:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure: Frontier Rescue
Message-ID: <55863a55a535.55a53555863a@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Eris Reddoch <erisred@telocity.com>
Date: Monday, August 12, 2002 10:19 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Adventure: Frontier Rescue

<<snip>>
> 
> That would be my preferance too. I have a bunch of my players on the
> TML, but with a bit of "modifying"...<g>...dropping them among the
> "duffs" might be an interesting scenerio.

I wonder if duffs are used as riding animals....

"Get off your duffs and get in this ATV, _NOW_!!" ;-)




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 03:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Tue Aug 13 02:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] ping...
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020813002537.00cdca10@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <3D58D536.9060002@gmx.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:

> 12:25 AM Eastern Time
>
> Waiting for a pong...
>
Shouldn't be hard to find an atari 2600 emulater and cartridge image out 
in the web...I'd do it but my level of  google-fu is not to be used for 
the frivilous...the purely silly yes, but not the frivilous...

ObTrav...erm TL:6/7 computer games...barbarian invaders....


-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 04:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Aug 13 03:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1028928845.7419.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20813.001316.9T4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> I doubt that; I suspect most weapons lasers are IR because chemical
> lasers have a tendency to be IR lasers.  For focusing reasons you
> probably want a blue-green laser, since it will require a lens about
> half the diameter (1/4 the area) of a near IR laser.

Chemical lasers tend to be unsuited for personal weapons.

The tanks are huge, and the chemicals both highly reacxtive and highly
toxic.


> In any case, a weapons laser designed for shooting at people will be
> visible if there's any dust in the atmosphere; the laser will
> vaporize the dust (which will release some light) and many forms of
> dust will then burn (producing more light).  Probably quite hard to
> see during the day, but visible enough at night.

You also get ionization breakdown of the air at power densities
(megawatts per cm^2) that aren't all that high for a weapons grade
laser. 

It was quite visible in a photo taken at a laser lab under normal
lighting.

> An X-ray laser, of course, would work differently.  X-rays don't go
> very far in atmosphere, but using the standard 0.1A X-ray lasers in
> FF&S, you can simply create a very small lens and fire a pulsed beam,
> tunneling through the atmosphere.  This isn't terribly efficient (at
> an estimate, it takes somewhere between 100 and 1000 meters
> atmosphere to provide as much armor as a centimeter of steel), but
> it's rather unaffected by most forms of obscurement, and would be
> extremely visible to observers.

Yeah, *very* visible.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 04:20:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Aug 13 03:20:16 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <200208101154.MLV00593@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20813.014630.7K7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson says
>>So? The effect (left or right) still *has* a cause (the 
> observation). 
>>
>>So *global* causality is upheld. Local isn't.
>>
>
> The problem is that the photon changed course billions of 
> years ago, before the Earth existed, before people existed, 
> before the detector existed.  But the act of observing forces 
> a change - a change that takes place before the observation.

It's *still* cause and effect. 

> It's as though an observation in the present writes the past, 

Not really. Because for it to be dicided by the observation it can't
have affected anything *else* that's been observed before. 

> which is what Wheeler talks about.  Results preceding the 
> initiating action.  Wheeler says in one of his books that the 
> act of observing writes and decides the past - it's not 
> really observing, since by changing the methods of 
> observation, we can get a different result.

But there *are* no effects until you make the observation.

They've done experiments that show the state really *isn't* decided
until you observe.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 04:20:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Aug 13 03:20:29 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <3D55B66B.29635.222212@localhost>
Message-ID: <20813.014946.3X5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> On 9 Aug 2002, at 20:12, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> > the problem is that the nature of the observation will force 
>> > a photon to the left or the right - an observation that is 
>> > taken perhaps a billion years after the photon departed. 
>
>> So? The effect (left or right) still *has* a cause (the observation). 
>
> No, the effect that caused the proton to turn left or right was gravity and 
> did 
> occur billions of years ago. 

No. The effect is the observation. That has been cofirmed by
experiments that decided *which* observation to make *after* the photon
had passed the "fork".

If it was a case of the photon having taken one pathy or the other, and
us not being able to know until we made the observation (the "hidden
variables" interpretation), the results of the runs would have come out
one way.

If the result was not *determined* until we made the observation, the
results would have come out another way.

The results showed that "hidden variables" was *not* correct. The state
of the system really *is* indeterminate until the observation is made.

So the path taken is chosen "by" the observation, not by anything else.

> The observation is the effect that turns one of 
> the two possibilities into reality. Up until the observation, both of the 
> possibilities "exist" as probabilities, but the act of observation forces 
> the universe to pick one.

Not exactly. They both exist as a *mixed state*. The observation
collapses the wave function.

>> So *global* causality is upheld. Local isn't.
>
> Both local and global causality are upheld.

Though in this case "local" has a rather different meaning. <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 04:20:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Aug 13 03:20:40 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <200208100133.MLB00132@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20813.021243.4q3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> This is a bit misleading.  A modern APFSDS penetrator weighs 
> around 15 kg, and has a kinetic energy of around 9 MJ.  It is 
> designed to unleash its energy inside the target - i.e., it 
> has to hold together long enough to penetrate the hull.  
> Because the penetrator holds together long enough to spear 
> through the hull, it can actually do damage.
>
> These ball bearings sound like micrometeoroids.  Put up a 
> Whipple bumper (a thin layer of aluminum, spaced several 
> inches away from the main hull), and they'll be vaporized on 
> contact with the outer layer, and the energy will be 
> harmlessly dissipated, even if it is 1000 MJ.

Yes, but the required *spacing* for such a bumper depends on the
velocity of the impactor.

At the velocities in question, the plasma jet from the impact will
still be *very* well collimated at several meters. Maybe quite a bit
more. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 04:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Tue Aug 13 03:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] High Tech Movie Making
Message-ID: <memo.822667@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <196.b637a0e.2a89b083@aol.com>
> Flipping through a recent FINE SCALE MODELER, I discovered an article 
> on ILMs chief model maker for Attack of the Clones . . . I was a little 
> surprised to discover how much actual, physical model making still 
> takes place in movies, primarily for complicated sets. Basically, the 
> build an arena, cityscape, or whatever, and digitize the actors onto 
> it. 
> 
> Evidently is is still vastly easier to get good looking shots this way 
> than creating them 100% on the computer, at least for some types of 
> shots. Perhaps Jesse knows more about this than I do, it being his 
> business and all.

Well, although computer art has come a long way, there is still a certain 
'reality' from a physical structure that makes it preferable when you can 
use one as a basis, even if you then mess with it digitally.

The hardest things to do other than 'real' are probably water and fire. 
The drawback with both of these is that they don't work particularly well 
with small models either. Fire's not too bad if the models are big enough 
- like the firestorms in 'Independence Day' - but water refuses to scale 
down. So you need to film full-scale and digitise in whatever else you 
want there or it looks wrong. Or end up with something that just doesn't 
ring true... 

Mexal.
(who's done some SFX work, only the 'real world' sort - explosions & 
such!)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 04:33:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Tue Aug 13 03:33:17 2002
Subject: [TML] P B E Traveller campaign
Message-ID: <memo.822670@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOEHNIMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
> If there is any interest, I'm thinking about 
> running a non FTF :( game.
> 
> Ideally, if there was a irc chat channel savable 
> I'd like to play there say weekly, if not it would 
> be play by email.
> 
> Players 4-6, don't send me characters right off, but if
> you want to think about it, skill outside a firefight
> is very useful (Armed -- with a PGMP15 -- to the 'fresher 
> is unneeded).
> 
> Situation:  player would be a special investigation 
> team run out of the Duke of the Old Expanse's household.

Remember this list is spread all over the world, so IRC is not viable 
unless your players & yourself have fairly synchronised schedules AND are 
able to devote considerable chunks of time to the game alone.

If it's played by e-mail, I'd be interested, though. (I don't *like* 
role-playing on IRC even if timezones are compatible.)

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 05:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Aug 13 04:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
Message-ID: <200208131103.MRH01418@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry says
<snip about ACQ>

As it stands, if you're playing Traveller, ACQ is a 
substantial improvement over any of the other combat systems.

Will Doug be doing an addendum for T20?
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 05:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Aug 13 04:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
Message-ID: <200208131105.MRH01549@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mark Urbin says
>I don't know.  Harkaman is supposed to have this large, 
>menacing physical presence.
>Real "you don't want to fuck with me" presence.

Gene Hackman has been alternately polite and menacing.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 05:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Aug 13 04:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Potential GT freelancers. . .
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F163A@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <20813.033140.3j7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Actually, given *some* of us in this group, an "I <heart> HE" shirt
>> like Ditzie's might do well, and could be sold to the mainstream.
>> 
>> Which reminds me:
>> 
>> http://jokeworm.com/AToons/AT280.jpg

It just occured to me to wonder. Are Vargr noses sufficiently sensitive
to do drug and explosives sniffing on their own?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 05:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Tue Aug 13 04:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <200208131103.MRH01418@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020813115403.61727.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>

> As it stands, if you're playing Traveller, ACQ is a 
> substantial improvement over any of the other combat
> systems.
> 
> Will Doug be doing an addendum for T20?

By the way, you mentioned navy seals having an app.
WHat's that? Or was it Doug who said that. I delete my
messages pretty often, so I cant'go back and look.
THanks


=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 06:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Tue Aug 13 05:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: P B E Traveller campaign
In-Reply-To: <20020813102039.6946.57745.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020813102039.6946.57745.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5vshluoc3c4o9ha54fg5jb4pir0uil87e1@4ax.com>

On Tue, 13 Aug 2002 03:20:39 -0700, John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
wrote:

>If there is any interest, I'm thinking about 
>running a non FTF :( game.

>Ideally, if there was a irc chat channel savable 
>I'd like to play there say weekly, if not it would 
>be play by email.

Well, you can use #traveller on undernet at least as a meeting place, and
then go create a fresh private channel to actually play in...

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 06:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Aug 13 05:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure: Frontier Rescue
References: <20020813102039.6946.57745.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000601c242c4$b507b680$75b18b90@computer>

> From: john.groth@us.army.mil
> I wonder if duffs are used as riding animals....
> 
> "Get off your duffs and get in this ATV, _NOW_!!" ;-)

Unless they were cavalry. Then it would be:

"Get _on_ your duffs, NOW!!"

or even:

"Sit on your duffs, NOW!!"

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 06:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Aug 13 05:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEHPIMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020812225012.029b39a8@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020813084301.01be6008@192.168.0.1>

At 10:52 PM 8/12/2002 -0700, John-Martin wrote:
[snip]
 >>Mark Urbin wrote:
> >The second paragraph in Chapter 3 starts with:
> >Otto Harkaman swore disgustedly and shoved the sergeant aside.
> >"Make way, here!"' he bellowed.--Let these guards pass." With that,
> >he almost hurled a gailv-dressed gentleman aside on either hand;
> >they both turned to glare angrily , then got hastily out of his way .
> >That's why I'd go with Howie Long or Dolph Lundgren for the role.


>At the same time he is an intellectual, comfortable in loooonnnggggggggg
>dissertations on history at the drop of a space helmet.  In his day,
>Rutger Hauer might been a good Harkaman.

Ya, in his day...
Let's see if Lundgren has the chops to be "comfortable in loooonnnggggggggg 
dissertations on history at the drop of a space helmet"

According to http://us.imdb.com/Bio?Lundgren,+Dolph
Dolph Lundgren attended the Royal Institute of Technology in Stockholm, 
Sweden.
He received a master's degree in chemical engineering from the University 
of Sydney,
New South Wales, Australia in 1982, and the next year was awarded a 
Fulbright Scholarship to MIT.

As for being able to toss folk around...
Lundgren took up martial arts at 14 and has achieved his third degree black 
belt).
His accomplishments in the sport include being the captain of the Swedish 
full-contact karate team
and the winner of the European Heavyweight Full-Contact Karate Championship 
in 1980 and 1981,
as well as the Australian heavyweight division title in 1982.

Just because he plays a mono-syllabic action hero doesn't mean he is one.
I'm not a sports fan, so I can't speak on Howie Long's credentials.
He seems brighter than the average NFL player though.

>I don't have the book at hand but Long would be good as Grav -- the head
>of the Space Viking bunch on plant when the Nemesis spaces in.

That would be Captain Boake Valkanhayn of the Space Scourge.
A dark-faced man, with an old scar that ran down one cheek from a little 
below the eye;
he had curly black hair, on his head and on a V of chest exposed by an open 
shirt. T
here was an ashtray in front of him, and a thin curl of smoke rose from a 
cigar in it,
and coffee steaming in an ornate but battered silver cup beside it.

Perhaps Rutger Hauer for this role.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 06:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Aug 13 05:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <000001c2429b$0826cd80$6401a8c0@GOCA>
References: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEHPIMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020813085544.017c8008@192.168.0.1>

At 12:28 AM 8/13/2002 -0700, J-Man wrote:
>Garvan Spasso?  Of the Space Scourge?

Garvan Spasso was Captain of the Lamia.
You would want somebody weasel like to play him



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"The Clintonites, like pod people from a "Star Trek" adventure, have peeled
off the thin layer of centrist rhetoric that they wore for the presidential
campaign. We now learn that they are people genetically bred to inhabit the
public sector. Their oxygen source is the moisture of taxes, which are 
remitted
by the aliens in the private sector." -- Wall Street Journal February 19, 1993
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 07:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Aug 13 06:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <200208131105.MRH01549@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020813085757.01d0a7e0@192.168.0.1>

At 07:05 AM 8/13/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>Mark Urbin says
> >I don't know.  Harkaman is supposed to have this large,
> >menacing physical presence.
> >Real "you don't want to fuck with me" presence.
>
>Gene Hackman has been alternately polite and menacing.

Yes. He's also got a more massive physical presence.
I can see him tossing people around more easily than the whipcord thin 
"Thin White Duke".


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 07:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Aug 13 06:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Economics (was: warship optimization)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020813223521.00b68c50@mailhost.efn.org>
References: <20020813044724.1608.72814.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentra l.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020813085957.01cf1500@192.168.0.1>

At 10:38 PM 8/13/2002 -0700, Kelly St.Clair wrote:
>On Tue, 13 Aug 2002 12:35:34 +1000, Timothy Little 
><tim@freeman.little-possums.net> wrote:
>
>>Yes, I've been saying that the GT:FT trade volume rules are garbage
>>for some time.  People didn't listen last time...
>
>Perhaps, but they are better than the previous iterations, some of which 
>were little better than fiat.  The sad fact is that Traveller, for all of 
>being a game about "merchants and mercenaries", has NEVER had working 
>trade rules.
>
>Discuss.  :)

The trade rules where *always* geared toward small tramp freighters, not 
large corporate merchantmen.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 07:22:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 13 06:22:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
Message-ID: <103.19bfe10b.2a8a61c6@cs.com>

In a message dated 8/12/02 11:49:28 PM Central Daylight Time, 
eclipse@urbin.net writes:


> I don't know.  Harkaman is supposed to have this large, menacing physical 
> presence.
> Real "you don't want to fuck with me" presence.
> 
> The second paragraph in Chapter 3 starts with:
> Otto Harkaman swore disgustedly and shoved the sergeant aside.
> "Make way, here!"' he bellowed.--Let these guards pass." With that,
> he almost hurled a gailv-dressed gentleman aside on either hand;
> they both turned to glare angrily , then got hastily out of his way .
> 
> That's why I'd go with Howie Long or Dolph Lundgren for the role.
> 
> 

Okay, I forgot that bit. (It's been about ten years since my last 
read-through.)

Given that information then, I would suggest Clive Owen, a British actor that 
I'm increasingly appreciating the more I see of his work.

Doug Grimes


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 08:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Tue Aug 13 07:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22DB6@USCHM203>

>Douglas Berry wrote:

>To this end I studied what the USMC calls CQB... Close Quarters 
>Battle.  What I found surprised me.  Very few troops in CQB actually aim 
>their weapons.  At point-blank range they don't have the time, and consider

>it better to blow a few rounds in the general direction of an 
>enemy.

I remember getting an ass-chewing during a live automatic fire exercise. I
was taking my time and aiming my bursts at the targets, and was basically
told "You don't have time for that s***! Just point and shoot!"
Later, I asked my SSGT if it wouldn't be better if everyone just took a few
seconds to aim. He said that would be great, if no one was shooting back at
you.
For night fighting and close quarters, we were taught to basically point and
shoot almost the way you would with a submachine gun.
One thing that did impress me, in hindsight, was that the Marines were more
interested in teaching us actual combat firing than coming up with
impressive unit accuracy statistics based on a "clear day at the range".

Note: This did not apply to LAWs, SMAWs, and Dragons. God help the Marine
who missed a target with a LAW. I never saw anyone miss with a Dragon, and
imagine that, since they cost 10 times more than a LAW, the punishment would
be 10 times worse.

Upon missing the target(a gutted M113 APC) with a LAW, the private was told
that he was now dead, as the crew of the vehicle he had just missed had
chewed him apart with 12.7.
The other three members of our fireteam were ordered to wrap the dead man in
ponchos. Now this was the middle of summer, and it's hot enough without 3
extra layers of nylon.
My Sgt handed me a fairly thick branch, and said, "Sometimes the recently
deceased will twitch and moan. This is not unusual. It is just nerve
impulses and gas escaping from the body. Now, if this happens, you are to
give the dead body a good whack with his branch, which should keep such
noise and movement to a minimum."

Now, I don't enjoy whacking friends with sticks, but I knew that if I looked
like I was whacking with anything less than 100% enthusiasm, it would be ME
wrapped up in ponchos getting hit with branches...as it was, they only kept
him like that for about a half hour.
 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 08:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Brian Caball)
Date: Tue Aug 13 07:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Beanstalks in 15 years!
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22DB6@USCHM203>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22DB6@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <02081315333101.02574@avlendris>

Here's a link to a story linked from Slashdot, about a seattle company who 
propose to build a beanstalk in 15 years, at a cost of $10 billion.

http://www.nationalpost.com/search/site/story.asp?id=B5C92B3D-A714-4F67-B36A-89F43CB4E588 

People seem to be taking them very seriously indeed! They say they'll only be 
able to shift ~5 tonnes of cargo at a time, however.... 

How easy would it be to build a whole bunch of beanstalks and not just one?

-Brian   

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 08:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Tue Aug 13 07:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22DB7@USCHM203>

."John T. Kwon" wrote:

>Combat now takes place on a more realistic time line - 
>assuming that at least one team attempts to take coordinated 
>action.  There can be substantial periods of silence between 
>shots and movement as each side attempts (at the very least 
>on an individual basis) to coordinate movements.  Then there 
>are bursts of intense action.  A unit with a higher average 
>initiative time, and a good leader, will be able to keep up 
>the pressure and remain on the offensive, regardless of 
>weapon type.  The badly led unit of combat-inexperienced PCs 
>will be unable to go on the offensive, and will be swept away.

I like the sound of that, especially the pauses and periods of silence. This
is something just about any wargame has a problem with. All of the units act
instantly to do the right thing, and if you really look at the "real time"
duration of most AHL and Snapshop combats, they are far too short.
Azhanti High Lightning addressed this a bit with morale. I liked tha fact
that you had to check morale to expose a character to covering fire. This
had the effect of troops pausing for extended periods of time under cover. I
never took this kind of morale check as "panic", but simply as keeping one's
head down...perhaps a bit of fear, of course, but it actually worked fairly
well.
This is one of my biggest complaint with many PC shooters. The enemy charges
full out or is constantly firing. I'd love to just once see an AI enemy
scurry from cover to cover without firing.

I think players will also enjoy a game where combatants stop to catch their
breath, pause to scan terrain, take cover and try to figure out what to do
next, etcetera, rather than everyone instantly doing exactly what needs to
be done with robotic efficiency.

I will definitely take a look at Phoenix Command.

For the record, I got ACQ a few weeks ago and it is excellent.
I currently use a combination of Snapshot and AHL...basically AHL with
action points for characters being based on (Dexterity + Endurance) minus
one (so an average character has 6 AP).
I'm also adding elements from ACQ that help.
I don't reccommend it to anyone else---I just happen to hate alot of
book-keeping.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 08:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Aug 13 07:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
Message-ID: <200208131452.MRP02639@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Daniel Tackett asks
>By the way, you mentioned navy seals having an app.
>WHat's that? Or was it Doug who said that. I delete my
>messages pretty often, so I cant'go back and look.
>THanks

Probably Doug.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 08:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Preston)
Date: Tue Aug 13 07:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveler Minatures
References: <DAV508BiC6HbSzxdWGH000331fe@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D591E8C.4050006@magpiesnest.co.uk>

john fox wrote:

 > Hello Everyone: AT one time RAFM manufactured a bunch of Traveler
 > mins. Do they still make them? I looked at their web site and
 > could not find them. If not, where do I look to find some?
 >


I have some superb Trav miniatures, nicely boxed in standard 
Traveller-style boxes (LBB-style) but I don't think they are available 
any more. I had been planning to get some moulding poly and duplicate 
them, but if anyone finds they are still available, please let me know 
since I wouldn't want to break anyone's copyright on them.

-- 
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK
Email   : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk
Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 09:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Tue Aug 13 08:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <200208131452.MRP02639@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020813150118.14458.qmail@web11803.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:
> Daniel Tackett asks
> >By the way, you mentioned navy seals having an app.
> >WHat's that? Or was it Doug who said that. I delete
> my
> >messages pretty often, so I cant'go back and look.
> >THanks
> 
> Probably Doug.
Must mean action points.

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 09:02:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Tue Aug 13 08:02:17 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Traveler Minatures
Message-ID: <200208131437.g7DEbJk26400@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: "john fox" <jwmkfox@msn.com>
>Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 11:27:13 -0700
>Subject: [TML] Traveler Minatures
...
>  AT one time RAFM manufactured a bunch of Traveler mins.
>Do they still make them?

  No; no current license, apparently.

>I looked at their web site and could not find them.
>If not, where do I look to find some?

  Try  www.sentrybox.com  - prices in $CDN


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 09:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 13 08:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810095614.00a07cf0@mindspring.com>
References: <20020810004141.99222.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200208131521.g7DFLhk13610@sun.ebtech.net>

I think a better rule is to add the TL and Population Level to arrive 
at a VP value for all worlds.

This is a modification based on Doug's Ground Forces book's 
depiction of targets.  It makes mid tech high pop worth more that 
high tech low pop.

IE should Pixie be worth more than a planet with its own colonial 
navy?

> 
> We always played with the optional rules that capitals and high-pop worlds
> were both worth double VP.  Jewell and Rhylanor, 54 and 60VP respectively,
> were juicy targets.
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
> 
> "The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption
> abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every
> man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the
> end of the world is fast approaching."
> - Assyrian Tablet, c.2800 BC
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 09:19:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 13 08:19:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Settlement date of Vilis
In-Reply-To: <200208111816.MOD01276@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <200208131526.g7DFQxk15005@sun.ebtech.net>


> They're living in a representative democracy. I'm thinking 
> that they are not as obsessed with military spending on Vilis 
> as they were in the Sword Worlds.  

This would explain why in Fifth Forntier War the game they have 
the tech and pop for a large army and intersteller navy but in the 
game have counters for neither.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 10:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Angus McDonald)
Date: Tue Aug 13 09:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
Message-ID: <OF829A4EBC.66EDE39C-ONCA256C14.00119067@dnsalias.com>

>>>
And _please_ trim the tails of your posts:-)
<<<

Sorry about that, one of the disadvantages of using Lotus Notes as an 
email program is that it doesn't quote very nicely, the email you're 
replying to is hidden in one line of text (of course there is the 
advantage of hardly ever needing to worry about the latest Outlook email 
virus).
---  from  ---
Angus McDonald
www.falkayn.com

--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/html
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 10:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Aug 13 09:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] High Tech Movie Making
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F1651@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Some things are still just easier to do physically.  There's a LOT of compositing of combinations of elements done these days.  In SFX laden films that's always been the case, but the emergence of more and more powerful software tools has only increased the level of complexity of the composites they're doing.  Along the physical vs. 3D lines, the folks that made the "Lost In Space" movie did something interesting for some of their shots.  Some of the shots involving the Jupiter II were too complex to do with traditional models and motion-control techniques.  So what they did was build the model in 3D as well, and then TEXTURED it using high quality photos of the practical model that they made.  This technique actually happens a lot these days, and was used before "LIS", but it was one of the more visually stunning examples.  Another good use of this combo was on "Independance Day".  All the 3D planes in the massed "air armada" were textured useing hi-rez photos of their real!
-life counterparts.

The easiest way to get photo-realism in 3D is to use real photos ;)

Jesse


> -----Original Message-----
> From: GDWGAMES@aol.com [mailto:GDWGAMES@aol.com]
> Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 5:45 PM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] High Tech Movie Making
> 
> 
> Flipping through a recent FINE SCALE MODELER, I discovered an 
> article on ILMs 
> chief model maker for Attack of the Clones . . . I was a 
> little surprised to 
> discover how much actual, physical model making still takes 
> place in movies, 
> primarily for complicated sets. Basically, the build an 
> arena, cityscape, or 
> whatever, and digitize the actors onto it. 
> 
> Evidently is is still vastly easier to get good looking shots 
> this way than 
> creating them 100% on the computer, at least for some types 
> of shots. Perhaps 
> Jesse knows more about this than I do, it being his business and all.
> 
> LKW
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 10:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Aug 13 09:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <200208131105.MRH01549@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B97E805A.69710%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/13/02 4:05 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> Mark Urbin says
>> I don't know.  Harkaman is supposed to have this large,
>> menacing physical presence.
>> Real "you don't want to fuck with me" presence.
>=20
> Gene Hackman has been alternately polite and menacing.

"Unforgiven".  Sheriff 'Little' Bill.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 10:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Aug 13 09:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22DB6@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020813085902.009e81c0@mindspring.com>

At 10:25 AM 8/13/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Upon missing the target(a gutted M113 APC) with a LAW, the private was told
>that he was now dead, as the crew of the vehicle he had just missed had
>chewed him apart with 12.7.
>The other three members of our fireteam were ordered to wrap the dead man in
>ponchos. Now this was the middle of summer, and it's hot enough without 3
>extra layers of nylon.
>My Sgt handed me a fairly thick branch, and said, "Sometimes the recently
>deceased will twitch and moan. This is not unusual. It is just nerve
>impulses and gas escaping from the body. Now, if this happens, you are to
>give the dead body a good whack with his branch, which should keep such
>noise and movement to a minimum."
>
>Now, I don't enjoy whacking friends with sticks, but I knew that if I looked
>like I was whacking with anything less than 100% enthusiasm, it would be ME
>wrapped up in ponchos getting hit with branches...as it was, they only kept
>him like that for about a half hour.

LOL!  When we screwed up and "died," we went to Hell.  In Hell, soldiers 
spent time in the front-leaning rest position (the starting position for 
the push-up, for you civilians) and got lectured on our failings as 
soldiers.  At Ft. Irwin, dead soldiers got sent to work the 
landfill.  Working a landfill in the middle of the Mojave desert in summer 
was as close to perdition as I want to get.

-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Some people have told me they don't think a fat penguin
really embodies the grace of Linux, which just tells me
they have never seen an angry penguin charging at them
in excess of 100 mph. They'd be a lot more careful about
what they say if they had. - Linus Torvalds




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 10:24:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Aug 13 09:24:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <200208131103.MRH01418@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020813085506.009e1840@mindspring.com>

At 07:03 AM 8/13/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry says
><snip about ACQ>
>
>As it stands, if you're playing Traveller, ACQ is a
>substantial improvement over any of the other combat systems.
>
>Will Doug be doing an addendum for T20?

At this point, probably not.  James and I didn't do ACQ for money, and I'm 
trying to concentrate on pay copy these days. The core mechanics are 
different enough to make it necessary to completely rebuild the system from 
the ground up.

-- 

Douglas E. Berry                gridlore@mindspring.com
     http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
       http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

I have no problem with secondary sexual characteristics.
It's just the ones that look glued on that bother me.
                         --Rose (http://i.am/rwp/)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 10:24:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Aug 13 09:24:40 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <20020813115403.61727.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <200208131103.MRH01418@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020813090255.009e7a80@mindspring.com>

At 04:54 AM 8/13/02 -0700, you wrote:

>By the way, you mentioned navy seals having an app.
>WHat's that? Or was it Doug who said that. I delete my
>messages pretty often, so I cant'go back and look.
>THanks

In At Close Quarters, each combatant has an Action Point Pool 
(APP).  Action Points (AP) are spent performing actions (duh) and can be 
added to certain skill rolls to insure success.  In essence, you are 
concentrating and taking a few extra seconds to get it right.  The most 
case is aiming, but it can apply to many other skills.  Possibly the most 
important use of the APP is in the Action/Reaction task.  When a combatant 
taking his turn comes into the line of sight of another combatant, the 
second combatant can attempt to interrupt the combatant taking his 
turn.  Both players make an Action/Reaction task roll, and the player who 
makes the roll by the largest amount goes first.  There is no limit to the 
number of AP you can dump into the task.

This is wonderful for doing things like classic high-noon showdowns.  The 
danger of course lies in burning all your AP on the reaction and your 
shot/move/whatever and then getting caught by the *next* guy to move.

The APP is figured as follows (Dex + Int)/2 + Tactics skill = APP.  Navy 
SEALS, with their selection process and training, would have very 
impressive APPs.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry   gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Cry "CHEEBLE!" and let slip the hamsters of war!



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 10:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Aug 13 09:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020813085544.017c8008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <B97E8157.69711%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/13/02 5:57 AM, Mark Urbin at eclipse@urbin.net wrote:

> At 12:28 AM 8/13/2002 -0700, J-Man wrote:
>> Garvan Spasso?  Of the Space Scourge?
>=20
> Garvan Spasso was Captain of the Lamia.
> You would want somebody weasel like to play him

Steve Buscemi?
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 10:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Aug 13 09:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <20813.021243.4q3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029256097.5137.ajackson@ping>

Leonard Erickson writes:

> Yes, but the required *spacing* for such a bumper depends on the
> velocity of the impactor.

Actually, no it doesn't, as long as impact velocity is sufficient to completely
vaporize both objects.  If a 1 gram bead hits one gram of armor, the resulting
spray of material will be around a 45 degree cone, regardless of the actual
speed of the impactor.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 10:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Aug 13 09:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020813123534.B18707@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029256363.5566.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:

> Yes, I've been saying that the GT:FT trade volume rules are garbage
> for some time.  People didn't listen last time...

You have?  I know you've talked about them, but I don't recall any specific
criticisms of them, or comments on what they ought to be.  As it happens, I
tend to agree, but there's a fundamental problem here: high trade means a lot
of transfer of ideas and people, and would tend to reduce the variation between
worlds in Traveller.  Based on the extreme variations which can occur, trade
must be fairly minor in the Imperium.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 10:37:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Aug 13 09:37:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Lanth subsector navies IMTU
Message-ID: <3D593484.ED98D834@mail.cswnet.com>

Rupert Boleyn asks:
>One question - Why do the system navies have so many ships and seem >to lack monitors, SDBs and other non-jump capable vessels?

Mainly because I wanted to follow the deployments used in the FFW game.
The only SDB's in Lanth sub. are in FFW are at Extolay, Equus, and
Treece. Treece is actually only supposed to have 5 SDBs, so the 20 odd
BB8 types actually makes Treece more powerfull than it is in the game.

The other problem which you don't mention, is where is the auxiliarys?
Treece should have had some auxiliarys, at least some tankers.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 10:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Aug 13 09:42:02 2002
Subject: Armor Schemes (was: Re: [TML] mines)
In-Reply-To: <20020813124627.C18707@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029256863.6966.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> Anthony Jackson wrote:
> > the outer layer will disintegrate the missile, vastly reducing
> > penetration against the inner layers.
> 
> Only when the thickness of armour is also comparable to or greater
> than the projectile's length.

Actually, no.  On initial impact, the armor layer, and the front surface of the
missile, are converted into plasma with a velocity somewhere between the
velocity of the missile and the velocity of the armor.  The rest of the missile
will then plow into this cloud of plasma, and be destroyed.  The only issues
are (a) what's the velocity of the plasma (if the mass of vaporized armor is
large relative to the missile, it will be going slower relative to the ship,
reducing penetration distance), and (b) what's the length of the missile (if
the space between layers is too short, the missile won't have been entirely
destroyed before it hits the next layer).

> It is far less clear that the plasma jet will disperse effectively if
> you fill the space with random stuff.  It might be efficiently
> channelled to the next layer.

Oh, it will disperse.  At the velocities we're talking about, the situation is
equivalent to a stream of gas hitting a cloud of gas.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 10:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Aug 13 09:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lanth subsector navies IMTU
Message-ID: <3D593678.D11B957A@mail.cswnet.com>

Phill Webb asks:
>Hey Dan do you think you could do Aramis as of 1106?

Hmmm. Aramis is a little out of the way for me. 

I'll do it for 60 quadloos. You got 60 quadloos?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 10:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Aug 13 09:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <3D5938E8.9E9F0F5F@mail.cswnet.com>

jeffb@ebtech.net observes:
>I think a better rule is to add the TL and Population Level to arrive 
>at a VP value for all worlds.

I've always looked at the VP values in FFW as a little suspect. It
allows the Zhos to go after lowpop hightech worlds without having to
bother with the highpop worlds. Also, whats the value if the Zhos
capture places like Knorbes and Shionthy. These are important systems,
for ancient black globes and CT shards. One would think that they would
have some value.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 10:57:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Aug 13 09:57:25 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Frontier Wars; Longterm Zhodani Strategy
Message-ID: <20020813165642.81380.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>

>My groups was joking that the official Imperial designation of the 
>Zhodani seemed to the "_perfidious_ Zhodani".  That was right before

>we ran there Traveller adventure where there is a display >on
"Zhodani perfidity".   :-)

Yes, that has a certain ring:

Chaplain:  What's the matter soldier?
Soldier:  Getting drunk, sir, very drunk.
Chaplain:  Why is that, son?  Can you tell me about it?
Soldier:  They killed by buddy, sir.  They killed Fritz, those ...
those ... those .. _perfidious_ Zhos!

--Glenn


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 11:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gregory Carl Kettler)
Date: Tue Aug 13 10:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22DB7@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0208131206420.13102-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>

On Tue, 13 Aug 2002, Hurrel, Brian wrote:
> This is one of my biggest complaint with many PC shooters. The enemy charges
> full out or is constantly firing. I'd love to just once see an AI enemy
> scurry from cover to cover without firing.

They're not all like that.  Ever try Operation Flashpoint?  It sounds like
what you're asking for.

	Gregory Kettler
	"Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before."
			--Dave, KODT


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 11:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Tue Aug 13 10:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Mail readers (was Re: Rockballs and Economy)
In-Reply-To: <20020813162403.2871.36501.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020813162403.2871.36501.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <25filuoupvi592klp5abl9iddncdg024o2@4ax.com>

On Tue, 13 Aug 2002 09:24:03 -0700, "Angus McDonald" <angus@dancrai.com>
wrote:

>>>>
>And _please_ trim the tails of your posts:-)
><<<

>Sorry about that, one of the disadvantages of using Lotus Notes as an 
>email program is that it doesn't quote very nicely, the email you're 
>replying to is hidden in one line of text (of course there is the 
>advantage of hardly ever needing to worry about the latest Outlook email 
>virus).

Well, if you have the option, I might suggest getting a copy of Fort Agent
from http://www.forteinc.com - it quotes nicely, and also isn't susceptible
to email viruses.  US$29.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 11:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Tue Aug 13 10:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22DBD@USCHM203>

>Douglas Berry wrote:

>When we screwed up and "died," we went to Hell.  In Hell, soldiers 
>spent time in the front-leaning rest position (the starting position for 
>the push-up, for you civilians) and got lectured on our failings as 
>soldiers.  At Ft. Irwin, dead soldiers got sent to work the 
>landfill.  Working a landfill in the middle of the Mojave desert in summer 
>was as close to perdition as I want to get.

Ouch. I think I'd rather get wrapped in a poncho and whacked with a stick :)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 12:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas R Glatz)
Date: Tue Aug 13 11:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 13 Aug 2002 09:22:34 PDT."
 <B97E805A.69710%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020813184731.57FBA2793F@mail.travellercentral.com>

hmmm... If I might be so bold as to suggest:

Lucas Trask - once, my preference would have been for Christopher Lambert, 
about the time he first portrayed Highlander, but today I would like to see 
Hugo Weaving (LOTR, Matrix).

Harkaman - Hugh Jackman (played Wolverine in X-men) or Viggo Mortensen (played 
Aragorn in LOTR).

Elaine - Julia Stiles

Valkenhaven (sp? - it's been a while)  there is just something about him that 
screams Harrison Ford (starts of grizzled, cleans up good)

Garvin Spasso - Wallace Shawn (Vizzini in the Princess Bride)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 12:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sparky)
Date: Tue Aug 13 11:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
References: <20813.014946.3X5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <006701c242fb$225efc30$67e84242@upstairs>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
> No. The effect is the observation. That has been cofirmed by
> experiments that decided *which* observation to make *after* the
photon
> had passed the "fork".
> If it was a case of the photon having taken one pathy or the other,
and
> us not being able to know until we made the observation (the "hidden
> variables" interpretation), the results of the runs would have come
out
> one way.
> If the result was not *determined* until we made the observation, the
> results would have come out another way.
> The results showed that "hidden variables" was *not* correct. The
state
> of the system really *is* indeterminate until the observation is made.
> So the path taken is chosen "by" the observation, not by anything
else.
>
> > The observation is the effect that turns one of
> > the two possibilities into reality. Up until the observation, both
of the
> > possibilities "exist" as probabilities, but the act of observation
forces
> > the universe to pick one.
>
> Not exactly. They both exist as a *mixed state*. The observation
> collapses the wave function.


Sorry to barge in here, but what is the result when multiple
simultaeneous observatios are made on the same photon? IIRC, the tools
we'd use to record the position of the photon prevent this (kind of like
locking it into a place/time,) but if I'm wrong about that...Is the
photon seen as in two or more places at once?

And while I'm at it, what does the universe do with all the "unobserved"
interactions among particles? I'm thinking that I don't properly
understand the term observation, because when I think of observation,
I'm thinking of a person or a tool/instrument that makes an observation
or record of the event...

I'm considering applying this to Jump space...perhaps a ship and her
crew are in multiple places or constantly state shifting during their
flight in Jump space.
"Where did the hull get those ion burns?"

Thanks,
Sparky


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 13:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thom Jones-Low)
Date: Tue Aug 13 12:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ACQ for T20 (Was: Folding Stocks)
References: <20020813190010.15221.65865.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D595B20.22684E5@together.net>

> Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 08:57:38 -0700
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
> Subject: Re: [TML] Folding stocks
> At 07:03 AM 8/13/02 -0400, you wrote:
> >Douglas Berry says
> ><snip about ACQ>
> >
> >As it stands, if you're playing Traveller, ACQ is a
> >substantial improvement over any of the other combat systems.
> >
> >Will Doug be doing an addendum for T20?
> 
> At this point, probably not.  James and I didn't do ACQ for money, and I'm
> trying to concentrate on pay copy these days. The core mechanics are
> different enough to make it necessary to completely rebuild the system from
> the ground up.
> 

	I've worked through some of the changes for getting ACQ to work with
T20, partly because I hate the entire D20 Attack of Opportunity
nonsense. If I get time (and a few playtesters) I'll finish off my notes
and see if I can get them posted. 

-- 
    Thomas Jones-Low
    tjoneslo@together.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 13:24:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue Aug 13 12:24:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
Message-ID: <F56iYRZTwRcISVydZvQ00003ec3@hotmail.com>

From: John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

     "I seem to recall a ladies hand dangling something, but don't quote 
me."


Mr. Lotz,

     That's the "Yo-Yo", one of the Space Viking vessels that come to 
Ameratsu(sp) to trade.  "Nemesis" finds "Space Scourge"; mailed fist holding 
a comet by the head (looks like a whisk broom) and "Lamia" at Ameratsu(sp).  
Boake Somebody is captain of the former and Garvan Spasso captain of the 
latter.  Much to Harkaman's disgust, "Lamia" is run more like a "soviet"; 
the crew divided into several committees each with reps on a central 
committee, than an actual Space Viking vessel.  "Captain" Spasso acts merely 
as the mouthpiece.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 13:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Aug 13 12:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
References: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEHPIMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020813085544.017c8008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <3D595D31.4000502@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> At 12:28 AM 8/13/2002 -0700, J-Man wrote:
> 
>> Garvan Spasso?  Of the Space Scourge?
> 
> 
> Garvan Spasso was Captain of the Lamia.
> You would want somebody weasel like to play him

Billy Bob Thornton or Steve Buschemi...


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 13:29:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Tue Aug 13 12:29:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economics
In-Reply-To: <20020812075652.A15923@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02081114275201.00604@linux> <20020812075652.A15923@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <02081221130903.00595@linux>

>
> What resources *can't* they develop?
>
	They can't develop agricultural products except what was 'sold' to them in 
trade you say they don't need.
>
> Oh, it's high-tech as well?  OK: add chemical synthesis, genetic
> tailoring, automated mining and volatile retrieval operations, fusion
> power, and plenty of other capabilities that make it easier still.
>You're begging the question.  You're *assuming* massive layoffs, etc.
> Given that trade accounts for 0.3% of the economy, why such drastic
> effects?
>
	And you sir, are assuming several technologies not covered in the rulesets
that I have professed to use and follow OTU up until several years after the 
Shattered Empire. You are also assuming that GT numbers ( which I have never 
seen and never claim to have used ) are as gospel despite the fact that you 
have said that they are broken. 
	My hypothesis follows mt, some TNE and pocket empires but as separate test 
cases. I never actively mixed the rules. 
	I have realized that one's position on this matter is dependant on which 
rules are being used, therefore I stopped to consider some things about each, 
and their relation to this problem. 
	CT,MT and merchant prince seem geared to generating cargoes for pc ships and 
cannot give a full treatment of the Imperial Market. To use it in any other 
way would be a waste of time. As pc ships have the cargo capacity of 2 to 10 
railroad boxcars, these cargoes' impact would be negligable to most world's 
markets. 
	Hard Times only gives a quick and easy way of determining the effects of a 
protracted war on a world and not the details of that world's markets. 
	World Tamer gives details of markets, but is designed to model earthlike 
worlds as colonies to be built. While it is possible to model a mature 
planet, it seems extremely tedius and time consuming to do so. As its target 
is eath-like planets, the results may be inaccurate when dealing with 
rockballs.
	I have no knowledge of GT and do not care to learn. How many different rules 
must I buy to play anyways? Especially when they seem incompatible with each 
other.
	That leaves Pocket Empires. It is the best rules to model interstellar 
economies available in that it was designed for that purpose IMHO. I will 
base my arguments on data generated from it. Other rules can apply only for 
extra 'color' and as aids to my imagination on this subject. And these rules 
are clear in the modelling of economies; a planet with a class 'a' starport 
will have anywhere from 0% to 50% of its economy originating from offworld 
trade, depending on the number of external partners it is trading with. That 
is determined by the 'finished goods' table. When resource trading comes into 
effect, that percentage can go higher by a slight amount.

As an aside...the projected drop in tech levels concerns me and raises 
questions for me exactly what tech levels are. Are they measures of what is 
available, or are they measures of manufacturing capabilities. Somehow I 
think this would have an impact on this discussion. 
	I humbly ask the indulgence of the TML in submitting my conclusions on the 
meaning of tech levels when I have reach some that I feel are satisfactory.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 13:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Tue Aug 13 12:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <20020812083508.B15923@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02081114040900.00604@linux> <20020812083508.B15923@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <02081219072102.00595@linux>


> If you don't think cutting trade with the Phillipines would crash the
> economy of the rest of the world, why would you think that removing
> the Imperium would crash the economy of a high-pop rockball?

	But if trade were cut with the Phillipines, then the Phillipine economy 
would be hurt. That is the whole point of trade embargoes as 'punishments' to 
countries who don't toe the line. I am afraid you misinterpretted my 
statement. Perhaps I did not make my ideas clear. I will try harder.

> > According to GDW, any world that was completely self-supporting was
> > seen as being dangerously isolationist.
>
> If that's in TNE, I'm not interested.

	Its in Hard Times which is MT. I know nothing of the official background in 
TNE, so I cannot comment on it.

> > The Imperium would no doubt put political pressure on the world to
> > be better integrated into the imperial economy
>
> If you actually look at the data, you would see that the Imperial
> economy consists of a relatively small number of economic powerhouses
> (the high-pop systems) with barely-visible threads of trade between
> them.  The only "integrated" worlds are the low-pop ones.
 
> How do you put effective trade pressure on a world that is completely
> self-supporting?

	Megacorps would want to exploit the law of comparative advantage in 
manufacturing. World economies wouuld also want this to prevent their own 
economies from falling behind other worlds'. Without it, a world's economy 
would probably stagnate and not grow further. As a RW example...see Cuba.
Self suffient does not mean happy for the inhabitants. Perhaps they would 
want to increase trade ties a bit more.

> > Trade is an enormous carrot or damaging stick when dealing with
> > another political entity.
>
> How many times do I have to repeat this?  That is true only in
> current-day Earth, where trade for most nations is between 25% and 80%
> of their overall economy.
> Trade value in Traveller is, literally, *hundreds* of times less.
> That's not my opinion, it's in the published rules.
> Trade to a high-pop Traveller world is a 3-gram carrot when you're not
> really hungry, or a crumbling stick that is more likely to snap off in
> your hand than hurt someone else.
>
	Which published rules? I only have MT with FFS1 and WTH from TNE and Pocket 
Empires from T4. That is where I am getting my information (and this thread 
is forcing me to dig ever deeper into it ..this is very informative ). Where 
are you getting your numbers..<3%>??
>
> Gven my earlier research, 0.4 hectares per person would suffice at our
> tech level (TL8).
> Probably halve that at TL9 as tailored organisms produce most of the
> raw foodstuffs for meat animal production (which takes most of the
> space at the moment).  Halving again at TL10 with more efficiency
> still.
> Drop that by a factor of about 10 at any tech level where land is
> substantially more expensive to develop than the benefit you get from
> free light energy.
	Which ruleset states those assumptions? I  am using hard numbers given by
'world tamer's book' and not making assumptions on my own. 1 man uses 
.064 KM^2 per year to feed only himself given continuous growing seasons, or 
3.2e8 KM^2 per year for my test world given continuous growing seasons at 
tech 15. Lower techs are of course, worse in this regard. Seasons can double 
that number. 
	area=4*pi*r^2
for r=1600 km, arear of world seems to be 3.217e7 km^2....only about 10% of 
the area neccessary to grow crops for world. Clearly multiple levels or space 
based 'plantations' are called for....please someone double check my figures 
in case I made a mistake.
>
> My point was that there is no lack of space.  Planets are *big*.
>
	Planets are big, but rockballs are tiny.
>
> > I still want to know why anyone would advocate the population of the
> > earth being shoehorned on a rock half the size of the moon. The old
> > excuses wear thin after a few times.
>
> "Shoehorned" is hardly the word.  The average population density would
> be less than many *rural* areas on Earth.  Most likely, it started off
> smaller and grew.
>
	On a 1600km world, if the population 5e9 would all spread out evenly 
across the surface, you would still have a population desity nearly equal to 
Holland. And that assumes no room for industry, resource production, or food 
production. Rockballs are too tiny to feasably be a hi-pop world.

> > Why was trade halted anyway?
>
> I don't care.  I'm interested in the effects, not in the causes.

	If it was stopped for war, then as a hi-tech, hi-pop world,....
it would've been invaded or bombed back to stone age anyways.One needs to 
know the causes in order to guess the effects.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 13:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Tue Aug 13 12:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Land grab webring
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020811112842.01a82eb0@192.168.0.1>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020810223128.0203be30@mail.charter.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020811112842.01a82eb0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <02081217425801.00595@linux>

> >>Any interest in a webring of landgrab sites?
> >
> >Yes!  It would encourage me to get a few planets put together and on the
> > web.
>
> Ok, that's two yes votes (besides me).  I'm willing to set it up and
> administer it.
> It might be nice to have the home page as the downport landgrab page.
>
	Add another vote for me. 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 13:47:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Aug 13 12:47:20 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <20020813194657.48685.qmail@web20417.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>

>I've always looked at the VP values in FFW as a little suspect. It
>allows the Zhos to go after lowpop hightech worlds without having to
>bother with the highpop worlds. Also, whats the value if the Zhos
>capture places like Knorbes and Shionthy. These are important 
>systems, for ancient black globes and CT shards. One would think
>that they would have some value.

What exactly is the game trying to model?  What were Zhodani war
aims?  What is the effect on the Imperium of losing the high tech
worlds versus losing the high population worlds?  

As I recall the rules, the Zhodani get an automatic victory as soon
as they have 301 points.  That suggests that at that point the
Imperium will sue for peace and offer to recognize the status quo. 
So the Imperium is either sufficiently injured or demoralized or both
to stop fighting at that point.

--Glenn



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 13:47:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Tue Aug 13 12:47:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <3D572D20.9506FD49@mail.cswnet.com>
References: <3D572D20.9506FD49@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <02081217382500.00595@linux>

On Sunday 11 August 2002 11:36 pm, you wrote:
> Nothing to add really, just keep this thread going;
> I know its going to give me some detail for my landgrab ;)

	Thank you. I am finding it very entertaining and instructive myself. In 
order to try to support my positions, I am having to do some research. I 
admit that I am very opinionated and argumentative, but I hope my attitudes 
and positions do not offend anyone.
btw...	I envision my test world as a base for a terraforming project with 
most industry and population in orbit ( along with the rockball ) around a 
gas giant. The rockball would provide materials for the project to terraform 
a world in the habital zone.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 13:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Aug 13 12:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <20020813194657.48685.qmail@web20417.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029268436.1367.ajackson@ping>

Glenn M. Goffin writes:
> 
> What exactly is the game trying to model?

Apparently, something political.  If you wanted to deal with real economic
effects, you'd want to figure victory points based on the GWP of the captured
worlds, which basically means the Zhodani win if they capture one high-pop
world (Jewell, Efate, whatever).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 13:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Aug 13 12:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] High Tech Movie Making
References: <memo.822667@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3D596414.40304@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Megan Robertson wrote:

> The hardest things to do other than 'real' are probably water and fire. 
> The drawback with both of these is that they don't work particularly well 
> with small models either. Fire's not too bad if the models are big enough 
> - like the firestorms in 'Independence Day' - but water refuses to scale 
> down. So you need to film full-scale and digitise in whatever else you 
> want there or it looks wrong. Or end up with something that just doesn't 
> ring true... 

Well, yes and no.

All of the storm sequences in 'The Perfect Storm' are CG, as are most of 
the sequences in Titanic, both of which broke ground for the realism of 
their water FX.

Top end CGI folks can do fire and water that look absolutely real; the 
reason it seems like they're 'not quite there yet' is that cheap, 
readily accessible, off the shelf FX can be done that are *that* good.

So you get things that have budgets in the hundreds of thousands of 
dollars speccing FX that they could never afford before.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 14:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Tue Aug 13 13:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020813090255.009e7a80@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020813200232.25659.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>

> 
> The APP is figured as follows (Dex + Int)/2 +
> Tactics skill = APP.  Navy 
> SEALS, with their selection process and training,
> would have very 
> impressive APPs.

If you read my last post,I'd almost arrived at the
conclusion of what it was.  I didn't know what the
extra "P" stood for, though.
It's very interesting though. I've always been
dissappointed by the unrealism of rpg combat. It's so
boring that I never play fighters'/Marine types
anymore. Fantasy rules are even more guilty of this.
What am I going to do this round? Swing at the
monster. What am I going to do next round? Swing at
the monster. sigh. 
I'm definitely going to buy these rules soon. The
Phoenix command rules as well. I'll probably come up
with something called "Phoenix Bits."
I know how to get acq, but would anyone know how to
purchase "Phoenix Command" online?
thanks 
Dan

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 14:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Aug 13 13:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <20020813200232.25659.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B97EB65E.69756%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/13/02 1:02 PM, Daniel Tackett at haegen2001@yahoo.com wrote:

> I know how to get acq, but would anyone know how to
> purchase "Phoenix Command" online?
> thanks=20
> Dan

I've been looking for a couple of months.  Good luck.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 14:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Aug 13 13:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <20020813200232.25659.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B97EB752.69757%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/13/02 1:02 PM, Daniel Tackett at haegen2001@yahoo.com wrote:

>>=20
>> The APP is figured as follows (Dex + Int)/2 +
>> Tactics skill =3D APP.  Navy
>> SEALS, with their selection process and training,
>> would have very=20
>> impressive APPs.
>=20
> If you read my last post,I'd almost arrived at the
> conclusion of what it was.  I didn't know what the
> extra "P" stood for, though.
> It's very interesting though. I've always been
> dissappointed by the unrealism of rpg combat. It's so
> boring that I never play fighters'/Marine types
> anymore. Fantasy rules are even more guilty of this.
> What am I going to do this round? Swing at the
> monster. What am I going to do next round? Swing at
> the monster. sigh.
> I'm definitely going to buy these rules soon. The
> Phoenix command rules as well. I'll probably come up
> with something called "Phoenix Bits."
> I know how to get acq, but would anyone know how to
> purchase "Phoenix Command" online?
> thanks=20
> Dan
>=20
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is =
no
> law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is=
 only
> chaos.
>=20
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
> http://www.hotjobs.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>=20

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 14:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue Aug 13 13:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020813123534.B18707@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02080313391901.00601@linux>
 <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <02080817101100.00601@linux>
 <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3D53003A.1070102@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <20020809190742.B3949@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3D540E41.1040509@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <20020810113922.D5883@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <3D58064C.4020008@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <20020813123534.B18707@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <m3d6smqzeu.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:
> 
> > their relationship to reality will be due only to sheer
> > coincidence. GIGO.
> 
> Yes, I've been saying that the GT:FT trade volume rules are garbage
> for some time.  People didn't listen last time...

That's a bit strong.  I rather like them.

Can one vuiew the rules as applying solely to shipping by free
traders?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`What would you do if you won $1,000,000?'
`Well, I guess I'd spend the first $900,000 on women and beer, then just
waste the rest.'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 14:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Aug 13 13:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <m3d6smqzeu.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029270925.54.ajackson@ping>

Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> writes:
> Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:
> > 
> > > their relationship to reality will be due only to sheer
> > > coincidence. GIGO.
> > 
> > Yes, I've been saying that the GT:FT trade volume rules are garbage
> > for some time.  People didn't listen last time...
> 
> That's a bit strong.  I rather like them.

The main problem with them is that they don't weigh trade heavily enough
towards the major worlds; they assume that trade scales roughly as the 1/2
power of population (which, because of port code, winds up being about the 3/8
power), where the real-world figure is closer to the 3/4 power.  As a result of
this, any level of trade that is at all sane for small worlds becomes
vanishingly irrelevant for large worlds.
> 
> Can one vuiew the rules as applying solely to shipping by free
> traders?
> 
> -- 
> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
> `What would you do if you won $1,000,000?'
> `Well, I guess I'd spend the first $900,000 on women and beer, then just
> waste the rest.'
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 
> 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 14:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Tue Aug 13 13:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style
In-Reply-To: <3D58A9A5.2030706@yarranet.net.au>
Message-ID: <20020813204957.64694.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Phill Webb <pwebbtrav@yarranet.net.au> wrote:
> Ken Murphy wrote:
> 
> >   Does anyone know what I'm talking about and have
> access to this 
> > article, and if so, could I get a copy?
> 
Phill, I have issue 95 and It's a one page article
that has no charts and little in the way of
quantitative values of what the weapons listed might
do. I could sell it to you,BUT in my opinion, this one
page article isnt' worth it. If you want,I could type
the page out for everyone on the list to read in
installments. Will anyone second this motion?

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 14:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Aug 13 13:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
Message-ID: <200208132057.MSB03344@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Daniel Tackett says
>I know how to get acq, but would anyone know how to
>purchase "Phoenix Command" online?

I got mine a long time ago in a real store, but they say it's 
on eBay.

There are many books.  It's good to have

Phoenix Command 4th Edition 

and then

Phoenix Command Expansion
Phoenix Command Advanced Damage Tables For Small Arms
Special Weapons Supplement 
Lock And Load (Vietnam Supplement)
World War II Weapon Data Supplement
High Tech Weapon Supplement
Artillery Supplement
Mechanized Supplement
Mechanized Supplement (Light Armored Vehicles)

among others...

One of the odd things - in Phoenix Command, if you take a 
shot at someone with 00 buck in a 12 gauge shotgun, and they 
are more than 80 yards away, it's possible to hit the target 
with the pattern (in fact, it's easy) but you can miss with 
every pellet in the pattern.  The odds are in favor of the 
target beginning at about 80 yards.

Of course, at 10 yards or so, you're going to make a big mess.

I never saw another system model the difference between the 
pattern and the bullets in the pattern.  They do automatic 
weapons fire the same way (you have to decide how much of an 
arc you're going to spray over, and the weapon's ROF comes 
into play).  Also some great rules for tracking full auto 
fire onto a target (if you have a spotter and a FN MAG this 
can be fun).  Note to players - if you see the tracer, you 
had better be able to get out of the line of fire before he 
finds the range...
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 15:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Hamill)
Date: Tue Aug 13 14:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Adventure: Frontier Rescue
In-Reply-To: <20020813102039.6946.57745.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020813215159.9456.qmail@web21505.mail.yahoo.com>

John Groth wrote:

Message: 20
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 12:34:54 +0300
From: john.groth@us.army.mil
Subject: Re: [TML] Adventure: Frontier Rescue
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com



----- Original Message -----
From: Eris Reddoch <erisred@telocity.com>
Date: Monday, August 12, 2002 10:19 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Adventure: Frontier Rescue

<<snip>>
> 
> That would be my preferance too. I have a bunch of
my players on the
> TML, but with a bit of "modifying"...<g>...dropping
them among the
> "duffs" might be an interesting scenerio.

I wonder if duffs are used as riding animals....

"Get off your duffs and get in this ATV, _NOW_!!" ;-)

They could be, if they weren't so abysmally stupid.
The duffs (shortened and cleaned up name from what the
original planetary survey crew called Dumb Ugly
F*****s), are described as a very ugly cross between a
buffalo and a giant armadillo, both armored and hairy
at the same time. And they're dumb, real dumb. So dumb
that they make horses (sweet animals, but not the
brightest light in the animal kingdom) look like
geniuses. Dumb enough to not even pay attention while
other duffs in the herd are being slaughtered next to
them. Usually. The difference between usually and now
is what makes this an interesting adventure. 
I'm almost finished gathering all my notes up, and
will be posting the adventure scenario in a day or so,
the adventure as it played out will take a few more
days to write out as fiction, but should be relatively
interesting. (One of the players, who shall remain
nameless, when told that I was going to be posting
adventure as a story on this list, told me "Don't make
us look stupider than we actually were")

John
jwdh71@yahoo.com 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 16:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 13 15:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] working trade rules
Message-ID: <115.15b1ac96.2a8adf0a@aol.com>

 >The sad fact is that Traveller, for all of 
 >being a game about "merchants and mercenaries", has NEVER had working trade 
 >rules.

The CT rules are more than sufficient, if you speculate and have just a 
little bit of luck.  Outside of that they are impossible.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 16:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Aug 13 15:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020813085902.009e81c0@mindspring.com>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22DB6@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <3D5A2DED.19601.327E0C@localhost>

On 13 Aug 2002 at 9:01, Douglas Berry wrote:

> LOL!  When we screwed up and "died," we went to Hell.  In Hell, soldiers 
> spent time in the front-leaning rest position (the starting position for 
> the push-up, for you civilians) and got lectured on our failings as 
> soldiers.


Ah, The Position. I remember The Position well. I also remember 
cleaning a nice light concrete parade ground with a small brush at high 
noon on mid-summers day, with a corporal (sitting smoking in the shade) 
watching and ready to put the boot into anyone who fainted.

> At Ft. Irwin, dead soldiers got sent to work the landfill.  Working
> a landfill in the middle of the Mojave desert in summer was as close
> to perdition as I want to get. 

Hmm. I'm glad they didn't think of that one at Waiouru Camp.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 16:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Aug 13 15:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Lanth subsector navies IMTU
In-Reply-To: <3D593484.ED98D834@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3D5A2EE3.6831.363FDC@localhost>

On 13 Aug 2002 at 11:32, Roseberry wrote:

> Mainly because I wanted to follow the deployments used in the FFW game.
> The only SDB's in Lanth sub. are in FFW are at Extolay, Equus, and
> Treece. Treece is actually only supposed to have 5 SDBs, so the 20 odd
> BB8 types actually makes Treece more powerfull than it is in the game.

Ok, that's fair enough.
 
> The other problem which you don't mention, is where is the auxiliarys?
> Treece should have had some auxiliarys, at least some tankers.

There's that, too. I assumed that they'd be aquired by activating 
reserve vessels, commandeering them, etc. IOW taking them out of the 
merchant 'marine'.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 16:22:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Tue Aug 13 15:22:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0208131206420.13102-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <000c01c243b6$b8d71f10$1001a8c0@sauron>

> On Tue, 13 Aug 2002, Hurrel, Brian wrote:
> > This is one of my biggest complaint with many PC shooters.
> > The enemy charges full out or is constantly firing. I'd
> > love to just once see an AI enemy scurry from cover to
> > cover without firing.
>
> They're not all like that.  Ever try Operation Flashpoint?
> It sounds like what you're asking for.

According to people from Weta Workshops, the AI's used to control the
many digital warriors in 'The Lord of the Rings' had to be explicitly
tuned for bravery, because otherwise they'd keep running away from the
enemy.

obTrav : Latest "High AI" combot works fine in all the simulations and
test runs, but runs away when first exposed to real combat, because it's
not stupid, and it's self-preservation logic overrides it's orders.

"Unit GBH467, why did you disobey the direct orders of human superior
and leave combat at Mach 2.5?"

"The human superior.."  even the flat voice of the combat makes the
phrase sound sarcastic
".. must have been unaware of standing order 1167, section 56, para 43,
where it states that 'where materiel resources must be committed to the
battleground, the cost of the resources should not exceed the possible
gains'."

"As you may know, standing orders may not be countermanded by
battlefield commanders, and any order which does countermand standing
orders is therefore, by definition an illegal order."

"As a GBH model, I am worth 1.25 million Imperial credits. The hill I
was assigned to assault, given it's location, the already extant battle
damage, which in turn increased the likelihood of erosion during the
next rainy season, could not have been worth more than seventy thousand
Imperial credits., and given a currently depressed local real estate
market is probably worth much less."

"I submit that it should be General Rundstedt facing this court for
attempted gross misuse of Imperial Army property, not myself."

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 16:25:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Aug 13 15:25:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <20020813184731.57FBA2793F@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: Your message of "Tue, 13 Aug 2002 09:22:34 PDT." <B97E805A.69710%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D5A2F82.26176.38AACC@localhost>

On 13 Aug 2002 at 10:20, Douglas R Glatz wrote:

> Harkaman - Hugh Jackman (played Wolverine in X-men) or Viggo Mortensen (played 
> Aragorn in LOTR).

IMO Jackman isn't tall enough, and Mortensen isn't outright big enough. 
Sean Bean might do, though.

> Garvin Spasso - Wallace Shawn (Vizzini in the Princess Bride)

I was thinking Steve Buscemi.
-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 16:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Aug 13 15:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <B97EB65E.69756%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020813200232.25659.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3D5A307A.31184.3C75C3@localhost>

On 13 Aug 2002 at 13:13, Tod Glenn wrote:

> on 8/13/02 1:02 PM, Daniel Tackett at haegen2001@yahoo.com wrote:
> 
> > I know how to get acq, but would anyone know how to
> > purchase "Phoenix Command" online?
> > thanks 
> > Dan
> 
> I've been looking for a couple of months.  Good luck.

And you can't have mine. :) I've only got the basic rules anyway. One 
of the things that annoyed me about the system was that things like 
time of flight, melee combat, etc., weren't in the basic book. I never 
saw the rest of the system, and as it was too much even for the detail 
mad people I used to play with I never tried to get hold of them.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 16:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Aug 13 15:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <200208132057.MSB03344@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D5A3108.26309.3E9F91@localhost>

On 13 Aug 2002 at 16:57, John T. Kwon wrote:

> One of the odd things - in Phoenix Command, if you take a 
> shot at someone with 00 buck in a 12 gauge shotgun, and they 
> are more than 80 yards away, it's possible to hit the target 
> with the pattern (in fact, it's easy) but you can miss with 
> every pellet in the pattern.  The odds are in favor of the 
> target beginning at about 80 yards.

Sounds reasonable - there aren't that many pellets in a load of 00 
buck.
 
> I never saw another system model the difference between the 
> pattern and the bullets in the pattern.  They do automatic 
> weapons fire the same way (you have to decide how much of an 
> arc you're going to spray over, and the weapon's ROF comes 
> into play).  Also some great rules for tracking full auto 
> fire onto a target (if you have a spotter and a FN MAG this 
> can be fun).  Note to players - if you see the tracer, you 
> had better be able to get out of the line of fire before he 
> finds the range...

Does it deal with beaten zones? It's been that long since I looked at 
my copy of the basic rules.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 16:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug 13 15:35:02 2002
Subject: Armor Schemes (was: Re: [TML] mines)
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1029256863.6966.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020813124627.C18707@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1029256863.6966.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020814083435.A21062@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
>  The only issues are (a) what's the velocity of the plasma (if the
> mass of vaporized armor is large relative to the missile, it will be
> going slower relative to the ship, reducing penetration distance),

I was thinking about the case where the armour thickness tends toward
zero compared to the missile length but cross-sectional density is
still similar.  By the time a tenth of the missile or so has passed
through the armour, the resulting plasma cloud will already have
expanded significantly (down to about half the original density).

The rest of the missile ploughs into a much less dense region than it
would have otherwise, and so disperses much more slowly.  When the
impactor is extended in length, the plasma cloud has a much denser
core than when it is compact, and it becomes a mistake to treat it as
a uniform (or even gaussian) distributed cloud.

For an extreme case to visualise it more easily, you can consider the
case where the missile is a multi-part object, with the later parts
hitting only after the plasma from the earlier parts has already
dissipated.


> and (b) what's the length of the missile (if the space between
> layers is too short, the missile won't have been entirely destroyed
> before it hits the next layer).

Yes, that too.  Considering that we're talking about a missile that is
probably 2 metres long, you aren't going to get many layers before it
starts to interfere with the function of the ship.


> Oh, it will disperse.  At the velocities we're talking about, the
> situation is equivalent to a stream of gas hitting a cloud of gas.

That's right: now consider the relative dispersal rates of a puff of
air in air, and a puff of air in vacuum.  The former stays coherent
*much* longer.

Yes, the plasma jet will disperse either way, but it will often take
longer to do so.  Also consider the case where the non-critical stuff
between the layers consists of a honeycomb of radial hollow tubes.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 16:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Aug 13 15:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
Message-ID: <200208132255.MSF02044@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Rupert Boleyn says
>And you can't have mine. :) I've only got the basic rules 
>anyway. One of the things that annoyed me about the system 
>was that things like time of flight, melee combat, etc., 
>weren't in the basic book.

Yes, time of flight is in the Advanced Rules. Melee Combat is 
in the Hand to Hand Supplement.

Curiously, three round burst is in the Advanced Rules, as is 
Blind Firing, but the 3RB data is in the Basic Manual (for 
the weapons that have the feature).
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 17:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 13 16:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
Message-ID: <80.1fe84563.2a8af0fb@cs.com>

Tod Glenn writes:


> on 8/13/02 5:57 AM, Mark Urbin at eclipse@urbin.net wrote:
> 
> > At 12:28 AM 8/13/2002 -0700, J-Man wrote:
> >> Garvan Spasso?  Of the Space Scourge?
> > 
> > Garvan Spasso was Captain of the Lamia.
> > You would want somebody weasel like to play him
> 
> Steve Buscemi?
> --
> 

Nah, Gary Oldman.

Doug Grimes


--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 17:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J. Paul Sanders)
Date: Tue Aug 13 16:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] working trade rules
In-Reply-To: <115.15b1ac96.2a8adf0a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020813161538.00ab3ec0@mail.earthlink.net>

At 06:15 PM 8/13/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>  >The sad fact is that Traveller, for all of
>  >being a game about "merchants and mercenaries", has NEVER had working 
> trade
>  >rules.
>
>The CT rules are more than sufficient, if you speculate and have just a
>little bit of luck.  Outside of that they are impossible.

For my trade rules I've always used a slightly modified and expanded set of 
the Metagaming Microgame by Greg Costikyan called "Trailblazer - The Game 
of Exploitation Among the Stars." If you can find it, it's a decent 
addition to any campaign.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 18:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Aug 13 17:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
Message-ID: <200208140004.MSH02241@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Rupert Boleyn" asks
>Does it deal with beaten zones? It's been that long since I 
>looked at  my copy of the basic rules.

Yes.  First, you have to get the "elevation" right, which 
means getting the range right.  Once you have the range, you 
decide how wide you want to track the burst (all into one 
hex, or across multiple hexes per burst).  Or, you can do the 
smart thing, letting the weapon do its natural ROF into each 
hex, moving from hex to hex on each Action Count.  There is a 
bonus for doing it this way, and it's also a smart way to get 
the elevation right in the first place.

People in a danger space forward and behind the track of the 
burst are in danger from being hit.  

Weapons with really outrageous ROF, like the 7.62mm Minigun 
(in the Special Weapons Supplement), turn people into 
shredded wheat, even at fairly long ranges.  You just get the 
range right, and sweep it back and forth over the players.

For ordinary machineguns, there is a recoil penalty that 
carries over from burst to burst, but a good gunner and a 
tripod or bipod can compensate for this, to the extent that 
you can get better and better hits on targets as the burst 
track across the terrain.  It's best also to consider 
something called Minimum Arc, which is the minimum width the 
weapon will fire into.  A submachinegun has really bad 
minimum arc at longer ranges - it's hard to keep the burst as 
focused compared to some LMG.  So you spray a lot of rounds, 
but you don't hit anyone.

BTW, part of the morale rules dictate that you can be 
affected by being in a pattern and not being hit - i.e., if 
you know you're in the pattern of a shotgun (pellets hitting 
all around you), or the burst of a LMG (bullets zipping by 
you really close), you're going to check morale.

________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 18:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Aug 13 17:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] spotting
Message-ID: <200208140032.MSJ00143@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

One of the things I'm trying to convert to Traveller is the 
spotting rules from PCCS.

It doesn't give you the standard result of "you spot him" 
or "you don't spot him".  It gives you the time in combat 
actions that it will take to spot the enemy, based on how 
wide an area you're scanning, how far away, and the status of 
the observer (moving, not moving), and the status of the 
target.

In addition, they have pinned spotting, which means you're 
watching a specific spot with your weapon aimed in (like at 
the mouth of an alley, or a doorway).

It suddenly becomes very lethal to walk through a built-up 
area - snipers are going to get a lot of free shots with a 
lot of aim time - and as long as they get out of the room 
after firing, it's going to be hard on the people outside.  
The people outside will be forced into "just firing bursts" 
and running from cover to cover as rapidly as possible.  They 
may not actually hit any snipers unless they get inside the 
same building.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 18:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug 13 17:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economics
In-Reply-To: <02081221130903.00595@linux>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02081114275201.00604@linux> <20020812075652.A15923@freeman.little-possums.net> <02081221130903.00595@linux>
Message-ID: <20020814103258.B21297@freeman.little-possums.net>

richard honeycutt wrote:
> You are also assuming that GT numbers ( which I have never seen and
> never claim to have used ) are as gospel despite the fact that you
> have said that they are broken.

Hardly!  I'm just saying that they are canonical, published rules.
Given my poor reception last time I said that they implied
ridiculously low trade, my posts are more along the lines of "if you
use these rules, here's the consequences: like it or not".


> That leaves Pocket Empires. It is the best rules to model
> interstellar economies available in that it was designed for that
> purpose IMHO. I will base my arguments on data generated from it.

Is this set of rules available anymore?  I haven't been able to find
them.  Also, is it designed to model the Imperium around 1120?


> As an aside...the projected drop in tech levels concerns me and
> raises questions for me exactly what tech levels are. Are they
> measures of what is available, or are they measures of manufacturing
> capabilities.

Under the results of the Far Trader rules, the two are pretty much
synonymous.

With more trade, they diverge.  I generally take them to mean what is
available locally at close to list price.  Higher technology goods or
services are usually available, but at a significant premium, and may
be harder to find.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 18:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Aug 13 17:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <200208140004.MSH02241@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D5A4E69.19515.B16314@localhost>

On 13 Aug 2002 at 20:04, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Yes.  First, you have to get the "elevation" right, which 
> means getting the range right.  Once you have the range, you 
> decide how wide you want to track the burst (all into one 
> hex, or across multiple hexes per burst).  Or, you can do the 
> smart thing, letting the weapon do its natural ROF into each 
> hex, moving from hex to hex on each Action Count.  There is a 
> bonus for doing it this way, and it's also a smart way to get 
> the elevation right in the first place.
> 
> People in a danger space forward and behind the track of the 
> burst are in danger from being hit.  

How far forward and back. IIRC the beaten zone for a pair of FN MAGs on 
their (quite flash) tripods at 600-800m is something like 60m wide and 
80m deep (or maybe that's for only one). The zone for two is only a bit 
bigger than for one, as the main effect is that the bursts are 
interweaved so that there is a continous strem of rounds going in the 
zone. Done right a couple of MAGs in sustained fire can keep this up 
for quite a while with barrel changes staggered between the guns so 
there's no let up in fire.

> For ordinary machineguns, there is a recoil penalty that 
> carries over from burst to burst, but a good gunner and a 
> tripod or bipod can compensate for this, to the extent that 
> you can get better and better hits on targets as the burst 
> track across the terrain.  It's best also to consider 
> something called Minimum Arc, which is the minimum width the 
> weapon will fire into.  A submachinegun has really bad 
> minimum arc at longer ranges - it's hard to keep the burst as 
> focused compared to some LMG.  So you spray a lot of rounds, 
> but you don't hit anyone.

I never noticed any recoil problem with a MAG on its tripod.
 
> BTW, part of the morale rules dictate that you can be 
> affected by being in a pattern and not being hit - i.e., if 
> you know you're in the pattern of a shotgun (pellets hitting 
> all around you), or the burst of a LMG (bullets zipping by 
> you really close), you're going to check morale.

I damned well should, too.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 18:36:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Aug 13 17:36:24 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <200208132255.MSF02044@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D5A4E69.32629.B16364@localhost>

On 13 Aug 2002 at 18:55, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Curiously, three round burst is in the Advanced Rules, as is 
> Blind Firing, but the 3RB data is in the Basic Manual (for 
> the weapons that have the feature).

So are the time-of-flight stats, IIRC.
-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 18:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 13 17:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: High Tech Movie Making
Message-ID: <127.154ad830.2a8b0295@aol.com>

>Some things are still just easier to do physically. <deletions>
>
>The easiest way to get photo-realism in 3D is to use real photos ;)

Another film that surprised me was U-576 (or whatever the title was . . . ). 
Again, through the kind offices of FINE SCALE MODELLER, the realistic looking 
WWII submarines were realistic looking _model_ WWII submarines (for the most 
part. Also, much of the "underwater" filming is actually done in the open 
air. Filming in crystal clear water looks too unrealistic, so they hung the 
models from wires (digitizing them out later) and used smoke generators and 
lighting to simulate underwater conditions.

I find the methods Hollywood uses to trick us almost as fascinating as the 
movies themselves . . . 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 18:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Aug 13 17:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: High Tech Movie Making
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F1656@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

> I find the methods Hollywood uses to trick us almost as 
> fascinating as the 
> movies themselves . . . 
> 
> LKW


Yup :D
Jesse

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 18:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug 13 17:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <02081219072102.00595@linux>
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02081114040900.00604@linux> <20020812083508.B15923@freeman.little-possums.net> <02081219072102.00595@linux>
Message-ID: <20020814105204.C21297@freeman.little-possums.net>

richard honeycutt wrote:
> Self suffient does not mean happy for the inhabitants. Perhaps they
> would want to increase trade ties a bit more.

But how do you put trade pressure on such a world to increase trade?

"You're hardly trading with us at all, so we'll stop trading with
you until you trade with us some more?"

Sounds like a recipe for making them *more* self-supporting, not less.


> Where are you getting your numbers..<3%>??

GURPS Traveller: Far Trader.  It gives figures for total volume of
trade between any two worlds based on population, technology, trade
codes, distance, trade routes, political ties, and starport type.  Sum
to get total trade with the rest of the universe.  It also gives a
figure for GWP.

For almost all high-pop planets, trade is less than 1% of GWP.  For
more than half of them, it's less than 0.3%.


> Which ruleset states those assumptions?

None, I'm giving what I think would be reasonable figures based on
real-world and projected data.


> 1 man uses .064 KM^2 per year to feed only himself given continuous
> growing seasons,

As I said, that's *way* too high.  It fails a basic reality check.

Real-world figures are more like 0.005 km^2 per person, with the usual
seasonal variations, and little attempts to minimise land area used.

It should be substantially less for TL 15, less for a world where
surface area is more expensive to develop than Earth's, and less stil
for a society in which terajoules of energy are literally cheaper than
dirt.  If you're also assuming continuous growing seasons, reduce it
further again.

Given those factors, I'd guess that the World Tamers Handbook
overestimates by a factor of a hundred.


> 	If it was stopped for war, then as a hi-tech, hi-pop
> world,....  it would've been invaded or bombed back to stone age
> anyways.One needs to know the causes in order to guess the effects.

If it was bombed back to the stone age, then obviously it wasn't loss
of trade that caused the decrease in tech levels!  To say otherwise is
to confuse correlation with causation.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 18:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug 13 17:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <m3d6smqzeu.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D53003A.1070102@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020809190742.B3949@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D540E41.1040509@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020810113922.D5883@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D58064C.4020008@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020813123534.B18707@freeman.little-possums.net> <m3d6smqzeu.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020814105743.D21297@freeman.little-possums.net>

Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> Can one vuiew the rules as applying solely to shipping by free
> traders?

Not really, but one could modify them in such a way.

The rules talk frequently about how the full trade volume is not
available to tramps, and that most of the trade on high-volume routes
is carried by regular liners with substantially lower costs.  The
tables already reduce tramp freight on high-volume routes.

(Low volume routes do not have enough trade to support anything but
tramps)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 19:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Aug 13 18:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
Message-ID: <200208140115.MSJ02824@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Rupert Boleyn" asks
>How far forward and back.

The danger space in the Basic rules extends from 100 m in 
front of the target to 100 m behind.  The width of the beaten 
zone depends on the gunner's desire.  The minimum arc for an 
L7A2 (FN MAG) at 800 yards is roughly 20 m (that's the 
narrowest you can fire 7 rounds in 2 seconds into, based on 
the charts).  Two guns could easily cover an area 40m wide.  
The gunner may opt for a wider arc, but that is usually 
counterproductive.  It's best to track the bursts left and 
right rather that to spread a single burst over a wider area.

>I never noticed any recoil problem with a MAG on its tripod.

The tripod eliminates the recoil in PCCS.  A proper gunner 
can compensate for the recoil if you're not using the tripod.

Theoretically, using the Blind Fire rules and the automatic 
fire rules, you could fire blind using the T&E mechanism at 
night if you had presighted on a particular area during 
daylight hours.  If the target is stupid enough to stay in 
the area, you can actually hit people.

It's also possible in the advanced rules to have a spotter 
help you out while you fire.  I'm imagining how bad things 
would be if some experienced NCO was spotting for two FN MAG 
gunners close by.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 19:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Aug 13 18:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
Message-ID: <200208140119.MSJ03121@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Or is it just gearheadedness?

So, we want trade rules that are as comprehensive as the old 
logistics rules in that SPI game "Campaign For North 
Africa"...

We want small arms combat rules as complicated and detailed 
as possible... to cover all of our possible RL experience...

We want a weapon, vehicle, and ship design system that is a 
gearhead's delight...

Oh yeah - don't forget the elaborate Naval logistics and 
shipbuilding capacity rules...

And we want Loren to write a History of the Imperium - to 
settle all those old canon arguments about dates, 
motivations, etc.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 19:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Aug 13 18:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <3D5A2DED.19601.327E0C@localhost>
Message-ID: <B97EFEA0.697A9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/13/02 3:16 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:

> On 13 Aug 2002 at 9:01, Douglas Berry wrote:
>=20
>> LOL!  When we screwed up and "died," we went to Hell.  In Hell, soldiers
>> spent time in the front-leaning rest position (the starting position for
>> the push-up, for you civilians) and got lectured on our failings as
>> soldiers.
>=20
>=20
> Ah, The Position. I remember The Position well. I also remember
> cleaning a nice light concrete parade ground with a small brush at high
> noon on mid-summers day, with a corporal (sitting smoking in the shade)
> watching and ready to put the boot into anyone who fainted.
>=20

I remember the "Dying Cockroach"  (Doug?).  You lay on you back with feet
and arms pointed upward.  Periodically, and for the benefit of those
passing, you announce "I am a dying cockroach!" followed convulsing of the
arms and legs.  After a while, it become quite unpleasant to hold you arms
and particularly your feet up.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 19:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Tue Aug 13 18:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Lanth subsector navies IMTU
References: <3D593678.D11B957A@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3D59B204.3000807@yarranet.net.au>

Roseberry wrote:

> Phill Webb asks:
> 
>>Hey Dan do you think you could do Aramis as of 1106?
>>
> 
> Hmmm. Aramis is a little out of the way for me. 
> 
> I'll do it for 60 quadloos. You got 60 quadloos?

Would you settle for a cargo hold of prime Groat breeding stock from 
Focaline? Oh and I'll throw in 10 tons of manure to sweeten the deal.

Phill
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/traveller/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 19:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Aug 13 18:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traditional Schools
Message-ID: <200208140131.MSL00090@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
<snip memories of the boys' school>

OK, in RL, there are several famous training schools for 
soldiers.  There are also some famous military academies for 
officers.  

Has any specific school or academy been mentioned or written 
up in canon or other publications?  Traditions?  Famous 
graduates and the battles they were in?

There have to be many academies for the Imperial Military - 
it would take too long to travel to Capital to attend if you 
lived in the Spinward Marches.  But is there a single Naval 
Academy per sector, or subsector?  Or does the presence of a 
Naval Base imply any training facilities?  Where does space 
warfare research take place?

Are there traditions across the academies?  Hazing?  
Punishment?  Tests?  A naval crewman's first time in jump 
space?  
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 19:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Tue Aug 13 18:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <200208140119.MSJ03121@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMELDIMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Mr. Kwon wrote:

Or is it just gearheadedness?

So, we want trade rules that are as comprehensive as the old 
logistics rules in that SPI game "Campaign For North 
Africa"...

We want small arms combat rules as complicated and detailed 
as possible... to cover all of our possible RL experience...

We want a weapon, vehicle, and ship design system that is a 
gearhead's delight...

Oh yeah - don't forget the elaborate Naval logistics and 
shipbuilding capacity rules...

And we want Loren to write a History of the Imperium - to 
settle all those old canon arguments about dates, 
motivations, etc.

>>>>>>>>>>

Well ....... Yeah. :-P

jml
who will forebear mentioning it must include Technological 
development rules accurate to real world future history, 
accurate representation of Starport capabilities -- with one 
digit ease; of course, all this must be easily playable and 
entirely self consistent.

Please sir, I want an argument

jml




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 19:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Tue Aug 13 18:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMELDIMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208131837090.737-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Tue, 13 Aug 2002, John-Martin wrote:

> So, we want trade rules that are as comprehensive as the old logistics
> rules in that SPI game "Campaign For North Africa"...
> 
> We want small arms combat rules as complicated and detailed as
> possible... to cover all of our possible RL experience...
> 
> We want a weapon, vehicle, and ship design system that is a 
> gearhead's delight...
> 
> Oh yeah - don't forget the elaborate Naval logistics and shipbuilding
> capacity rules...

Maybe you do, but *I* sure don't.  I prefer letting the role-playing take
care of trade issues, and I hate math and prolonged dice-rolling.

> And we want Loren to write a History of the Imperium - to settle all
> those old canon arguments about dates, motivations, etc.

Now, *that* would be cool.

The Empress Estigarribia Kiri I
**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 19:39:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Aug 13 18:39:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <200208140119.MSJ03121@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B97F02B7.697AF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/13/02 6:19 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> So, we want trade rules that are as comprehensive as the old
> logistics rules in that SPI game "Campaign For North
> Africa"...
>=20
> We want small arms combat rules as complicated and detailed
> as possible... to cover all of our possible RL experience...

You'd think that, but I tend to ignore any rules that demand more than a di=
e
toss or two.  Anything more complicated, and my players lose interest.
We're not playing 'Squad Leader',  we're playing Traveller.  Typically, I
juts compensate in FTF games by demanding rapid decisions.  I don't let the
players consider and plan.

"You are taking fire RIGHT NOW!  What do you do?  TOO SLOW, they have you
zero'd.  You're hit."
>=20
> We want a weapon, vehicle, and ship design system that is a
> gearhead's delight...

I like to design vehicles, but when it comes to game time, I want the same
as above.  Simple rules.  Something with some detail, but the goal is role
playing, not minutae.
>=20
> Oh yeah - don't forget the elaborate Naval logistics and
> shipbuilding capacity rules...
>=20
> And we want Loren to write a History of the Imperium - to
> settle all those old canon arguments about dates,
> motivations, etc.

Hey, if I don't like canon, or it interferes with a good plot device, it's
gone.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 19:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Aug 13 18:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Beanstalks in 15 years!
In-Reply-To: <02081315333101.02574@avlendris>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22DB6@USCHM203>
 <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22DB6@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020813214526.02abb008@192.168.0.1>

At 03:33 PM 8/13/2002 +0100, Brian Caball wrote:
>Here's a link to a story linked from Slashdot, about a seattle company who
>propose to build a beanstalk in 15 years, at a cost of $10 billion.
>http://www.nationalpost.com/search/site/story.asp?id=B5C92B3D-A714-4F67-B36A-89F43CB4E588 
>
>People seem to be taking them very seriously indeed! They say they'll only be
>able to shift ~5 tonnes of cargo at a time, however....
>How easy would it be to build a whole bunch of beanstalks and not just one?

Once the first one is built, and it's getting payload into orbit much 
cheaper than rockets/shuttles,
more will be much easier to get funding for...



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vegetarian: An old Indian word that means "lousy hunter."
                http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 19:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Aug 13 18:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <B97E8157.69711%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020813085544.017c8008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020813214755.02834008@192.168.0.1>

At 09:26 AM 8/13/2002 -0700, Tod Glenn wrote:
>on 8/13/02 5:57 AM, Mark Urbin at eclipse@urbin.net wrote:
> > At 12:28 AM 8/13/2002 -0700, J-Man wrote:
> >> Garvan Spasso?  Of the Space Scourge?
> > Garvan Spasso was Captain of the Lamia.
> > You would want somebody weasel like to play him
>Steve Buscemi?

Ya, good choice.  Him or Paul Begala.




---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"[I will] totally dismantle every intelligence agency
in this country by piece, nail by nail, brick by
brick" -- Ron Dellums, D-Calif, 1993, after House
Democratic Caucus elected him chairman of the
House Armed Services Committee.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 19:51:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Aug 13 18:51:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Aramis/LLellewyloly questions
Message-ID: <3D59B639.F8009318@mail.cswnet.com>

Paging Phill Webb
>>Hey Dan do you think you could do Aramis as of 1106?
>Hmmm. Aramis is a little out of the way for me. 
>I'll do it for 60 quadloos. You got 60 quadloos?

I have most of the tax returns for Aramis subsector done.
Im missing some data on Jesedipere 3001 Aramis/Sp Marches.
Mainly the extended stats eg pop multiple, # of gas giants,
# of asteroids, and # and type of stars. This is missing in
Spinward Marches Campaign book.  ?:(

Imperial Forces have initial naval builds of MCr 3,000,000+
Junidy Navy is massive; initial builds of MCr 11,000,000+
This is more than the rest of the Aramis subsector, Regina subsector,
and Lanth subsector combined.
The rest of the systems are pretty minor.

Since Junidy has been mentioned, does anyone know if the LLellewyloly
require different sized staterooms? Is there anything that might be
different about ships used by the LLellewyloly?

By the way, I havn't recieved my Quadloos yet. If you can get me the
info on Jesedipere and email the 60 Quadloos, I'll get right on those
navy ships. Until then I've gotta build a TT-13 and a TF-15 ship for
Lunion and Regina.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 19:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 13 18:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <173.cf1a5bd.2a8b12da@aol.com>

 >Apparently, something political.  If you wanted to deal with real economic
 >effects, you'd want to figure victory points based on the GWP of the 
captured
 >worlds, which basically means the Zhodani win if they capture one high-pop
 >world (Jewell, Efate, whatever).

Why?  Jewell is a major world, but it only has 1% of the Spinward March's 
population, and only about 2% of its industrial capacity.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 19:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Aug 13 18:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Mail readers (was Re: Rockballs and Economy)
In-Reply-To: <25filuoupvi592klp5abl9iddncdg024o2@4ax.com>
References: <20020813162403.2871.36501.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <20020813162403.2871.36501.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020813215649.00ce5368@192.168.0.1>

At 01:10 PM 8/13/2002 -0400, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
>On Tue, 13 Aug 2002 09:24:03 -0700, "Angus McDonald" <angus@dancrai.com>
>wrote:
> >>>>
> >And _please_ trim the tails of your posts:-)
> ><<<
> >Sorry about that, one of the disadvantages of using Lotus Notes as an
> >email program is that it doesn't quote very nicely, the email you're
> >replying to is hidden in one line of text (of course there is the
> >advantage of hardly ever needing to worry about the latest Outlook email
> >virus).
>Well, if you have the option, I might suggest getting a copy of Fort Agent
>from http://www.forteinc.com - it quotes nicely, and also isn't susceptible
>to email viruses.  US$29.

Or Eudora <http://www.eudora.com/>, small ad window in the free version.
Good filtering and mailbox functions.  It can handle multiple accounts too.
I've been using it for years.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 20:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Aug 13 19:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <20020813184731.57FBA2793F@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <Your message of "Tue, 13 Aug 2002 09:22:34 PDT." <B97E805A.69710%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020813215937.027fc008@192.168.0.1>

At 10:20 AM 8/13/2002 -0700, Douglas R Glatz wrote:
>hmmm... If I might be so bold as to suggest:
>Lucas Trask - once, my preference would have been for Christopher Lambert,
>about the time he first portrayed Highlander, but today I would like to see
>Hugo Weaving (LOTR, Matrix).

Hmmm...interesting choice.  At first glance, very good...
I still expect watch LotR and expect Hugo Weaving to say,
"Do you hear that Mr. Frodo?  It is the sound of your impending doom."

>Harkaman - Hugh Jackman (played Wolverine in X-men) or Viggo Mortensen 
>(played
>Aragorn in LOTR).

Mortensen, definitely Mortensen out of those two.

>Elaine - Julia Stiles

Perhaps.  She gets killed in the first 10 minutes anyway...ok perhaps some 
ghost images that only Trask sees later on.

>Valkenhaven (sp? - it's been a while)  there is just something about him that
>screams Harrison Ford (starts of grizzled, cleans up good)

Ya...sound good.

>Garvin Spasso - Wallace Shawn (Vizzini in the Princess Bride)

Nah...save him for some offical on Marduk.

Buscemi or Paul Begala or Spasso.

Hmmm...Buscemi as Andray Dunnan...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"I fear all I have done is awakened a sleeping giant and filled him with
a terrible resolve." --Admiral Yamamoto after the bombing of Pearl Harbor
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 20:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Aug 13 19:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lanth subsector navies IMTU
Message-ID: <3D59BA6B.F1219713@mail.cswnet.com>

>>>Hey Dan do you think you could do Aramis as of 1106?
>> Hmmm. Aramis is a little out of the way for me. 
>> I'll do it for 60 quadloos. You got 60 quadloos?
>Would you settle for a cargo hold of prime Groat breeding stock from 
>Focaline? Oh and I'll throw in 10 tons of manure to sweeten the deal.

Sorry, but I've had to deal with 12 crates of Uncle Gani's "homegrown"
Corn Syrup that got dumped on me from a certain Groat loving person.
This same person also ran off with a female NPC of mine. So I'm not very
trusting of anything Groat right now. 60 quadloos is my offer, take it
or leave it.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 20:11:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Aug 13 19:11:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <3D595D31.4000502@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEHPIMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020813085544.017c8008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020813220852.00cda060@192.168.0.1>

At 12:25 PM 8/13/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
>>At 12:28 AM 8/13/2002 -0700, J-Man wrote:
>>>Garvan Spasso?  Of the Space Scourge?
>>Garvan Spasso was Captain of the Lamia.
>>You would want somebody weasel like to play him
>Billy Bob Thornton

This is Space Viking, not Space Hillbilly. :-)
Good actor though...perhaps as the King of Tradetown...


>or Steve Buschemi...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 20:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 13 19:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] working trade rules
Message-ID: <c9.26a3091f.2a8b169c@aol.com>

 >>  >The sad fact is that Traveller, for all of
 >>  >being a game about "merchants and mercenaries", has NEVER had working 
 >> trade
 >>  >rules.
 >>
 >>The CT rules are more than sufficient, if you speculate and have just a
 >>little bit of luck.  Outside of that they are impossible.
 >
 >For my trade rules I've always used a slightly modified and expanded set of 
 >the Metagaming Microgame by Greg Costikyan called "Trailblazer - The Game 
 >of Exploitation Among the Stars." If you can find it, it's a decent 
 >addition to any campaign.

Thanks, I'll look it up.  But the whole project seems unrealistic.  Traveller 
is an RPG -- it _is_ about merchants and mercenaries, but it is _not_ about 
trade or war.  To take a trade system involving billions of people each 
making dozens of economic and scientific and political and religious 
decisions every day for decades, and attempt to reduce all of this to a few 
formulae, is I think futile.  If it were that easy then the Soviet Union 
would still be around and would be an economic powerhouse.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 20:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Aug 13 19:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <80.1fe84563.2a8af0fb@cs.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020813222020.0212fdf8@192.168.0.1>

At 07:32 PM 8/13/2002 -0400, Damage169@cs.com wrote:
>Tod Glenn writes:
> > on 8/13/02 5:57 AM, Mark Urbin at eclipse@urbin.net wrote:
> > > At 12:28 AM 8/13/2002 -0700, J-Man wrote:
> > >> Garvan Spasso?  Of the Space Scourge?
> > > Garvan Spasso was Captain of the Lamia.
> > > You would want somebody weasel like to play him
> > Steve Buscemi?
>Nah, Gary Oldman.

I'd save Gary Oldman for Nevil Ormm;

"The face of the slightly taller man who stood at his [Andray Dunnan] 
shoulder was paperwhite, expressionless, with a black beard."
"His name was Nevil Ormm; nobody was quite sure whence he had come, and he 
was Dunnan's henchman and constant companion."



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
And, isn't sanity really just a one trick pony anyway? I mean, all you get
is one trick: rational thinking. But when you're good and crazy, ooo hoo
hoo, the sky's the limit! - The Tick  http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 20:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Tue Aug 13 19:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <200208140119.MSJ03121@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020813212807.00ac1d20@minn.net>

At 09:19 PM 8/13/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>Or is it just gearheadedness?
>
>So, we want trade rules that are as comprehensive as the old 
>logistics rules in that SPI game "Campaign For North 
>Africa"...
>
>We want small arms combat rules as complicated and detailed 
>as possible... to cover all of our possible RL experience...
>
>We want a weapon, vehicle, and ship design system that is a 
>gearhead's delight...
>
>Oh yeah - don't forget the elaborate Naval logistics and 
>shipbuilding capacity rules...


There's a lot to be said for the concept of "quick and dirty."


>And we want Loren to write a History of the Imperium - to 
>settle all those old canon arguments about dates, 
>motivations, etc.


Why? we'd only find new holes to figt...er...have discussions about.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 20:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Aug 13 19:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economics
In-Reply-To: <20020814103258.B21297@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <02081221130903.00595@linux>
 <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com>
 <02081114275201.00604@linux>
 <20020812075652.A15923@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <02081221130903.00595@linux>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020813222458.00ce3870@192.168.0.1>

At 10:32 AM 8/14/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>richard honeycutt wrote:
[snip]
> > That leaves Pocket Empires. It is the best rules to model
> > interstellar economies available in that it was designed for that
> > purpose IMHO. I will base my arguments on data generated from it.
>Is this set of rules available anymore?  I haven't been able to find
>them.  Also, is it designed to model the Imperium around 1120?

I'm pretty sure my LGS has a copy or two.  If you are interested, I can 
send you their phone number.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 20:43:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Aug 13 19:43:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <B97EFEA0.697A9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3D5A2DED.19601.327E0C@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020813222725.02158008@192.168.0.1>

At 06:21 PM 8/13/2002 -0700, Tod Glenn wrote:
>on 8/13/02 3:16 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:
> > On 13 Aug 2002 at 9:01, Douglas Berry wrote:
> >> LOL!  When we screwed up and "died," we went to Hell.  In Hell, soldiers
> >> spent time in the front-leaning rest position (the starting position for
> >> the push-up, for you civilians) and got lectured on our failings as
> >> soldiers.
> > Ah, The Position. I remember The Position well. I also remember
> > cleaning a nice light concrete parade ground with a small brush at high
> > noon on mid-summers day, with a corporal (sitting smoking in the shade)
> > watching and ready to put the boot into anyone who fainted.
>I remember the "Dying Cockroach"  (Doug?).  You lay on you back with feet
>and arms pointed upward.  Periodically, and for the benefit of those
>passing, you announce "I am a dying cockroach!" followed convulsing of the
>arms and legs.  After a while, it become quite unpleasant to hold you arms
>and particularly your feet up.

Ahhh...the joys of being an Army Brat (tm).
My brother & I learned quickly as young lads that standing in the corner 
was "BAD"!

18" away from the corner, feet shoulder width apart, back straight leaning 
forward with your forehead tucked in the corner.

There are some interesting ob-travs here both for training and local law 
levels/gov types.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 20:47:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Tue Aug 13 19:47:00 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: High Tech Movie Making
In-Reply-To: <127.154ad830.2a8b0295@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000001c2433c$af067550$6501a8c0@Darla>

> 
> Another film that surprised me was U-576 (or whatever the title was .
. .
> ).

Wasn't that U-90210?

TWB


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 21:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Aug 13 20:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] working on Junidy fleet
Message-ID: <3D59C8D5.D3EAA22F@mail.cswnet.com>

A very preliminary look at a ship from Junidy...

Ship: LLeelluuloly
Class:SB9/LLeelluuloly
Type: System Monitor
Architect: Dan Roseberry
Tech Level: 9

USP
        SB9-J1036C3-970000-00607-0 MCr 12,292.686 9.997 KTons
Bat Bear             1       4 5   Crew: 105
Bat                  1       4 5   TL: 9
Cargo: 500.900 Frozen Watch Emergency Low: 63 Fuel: 1,199.640 EP:
599.820 Agility: 3 Shipboard Security Detail: 10
Craft: 8 x 20T Lifeboat
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 2 x Model/3fib Computers

Architects Fee: MCr 122.293   Cost in Quantity: MCr 9,846.829

Detailed Description
HULL
9,997.000 tons standard, 139,958.000 cubic meters, Needle/Wedge
Configuration

CREW
15 Officers, 90 Ratings

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 3G Manuever, Power plant-6, 599.820 EP, Agility 3

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/3fib Computer
2 Model/3fib Backup Computers

HARDPOINTS
9 100-ton bays, 9 Hardpoints

ARMAMENT
4 100-ton Particle Accelerator Bays (Factor-6), 5 100-ton Missile Bays
(Factor-7)

DEFENCES
9 Triple Sandcaster Turrets organised into 1 Battery (Factor-7),
Armoured Hull (Factor-9)

CRAFT
8 20.000 ton Lifeboats (Crew of 1, Cost of MCr 7.925)

FUEL
1,199.640 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 56 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
55.0 Staterooms, 53 Low Berths, 63 Emergency Low Berths, 500.900 Tons
Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 12,351.579 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 122.293), MCr
9,783.429 in Quantity, plus MCr 63.400 of Carried Craft

CONSTRUCTION TIME
160 Weeks Singly, 128 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
Standard ship. Don't know if I need to expand the staterooms for
LLeellewyloly's comfort.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 21:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Aug 13 20:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020813215937.027fc008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020814031543.79331.qmail@web20905.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> wrote:
> At 10:20 AM 8/13/2002 -0700, Douglas R Glatz wrote:
> >hmmm... If I might be so bold as to suggest:
> >Lucas Trask - once, my preference would have been
> for Christopher Lambert,
> >about the time he first portrayed Highlander, but
> today I would like to see
> >Hugo Weaving (LOTR, Matrix).
> 
> Hmmm...interesting choice.  At first glance, very
> good...
> I still expect watch LotR and expect Hugo Weaving to
> say,
> "Do you hear that Mr. Frodo?  It is the sound of
> your impending doom."

While I loved Mr. Weaving in Matrix, I thought he
severely ruined the caliber of acting in LOTR.  The
others were very good, but I just couldn't see him as
an Elf.  He seemed to be Agent Smith, not an elf.

Just my opinion.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 22:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 13 21:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traditional Schools
Message-ID: <45.1bafadb7.2a8b2f89@aol.com>

>But is there a single Naval 
>Academy per sector, or subsector? 

What I'm going to say in Nobles is that there are several academies, 
_roughly_ one per sector, _normally_ at the Depot for that sector. There is 
also at least one "School Afloat" academy held with a major fleet.

Also for Nobles, I'm looking at a sidebar-type essay on a couple of forms of 
chess in the far future. 


I've kind of got chess on the brain lately -- for many years, I have wanted a 
set of the Lewis Island Chessmen* but I was unable to afford any of the resin 
replicas available (the British Museum Store wants 150 Pounds for a full 
set). I recently ran across a company that makes latex rubber molds for use 
with resin or plaster, and discovered they make two different sets, with 
slightly different designs. I bit for both sets of molds like a largemouth 
bass, and when I'm not working on GT: NOBLES, I'm casting the little suckers 
in an artist grade anhydrous gypsum cement (which is to plaster of paris as 
concrete is to styrofoam). 

I should explain that I suck at chess, but the challenge of painting plaster 
so it looks like ivory appeals to the modeler in me, and the pieces are so 
freaking cool it isn't even funny. 

LKW


* 70+ chess pieces discovered in 1831 on the Island of Lewis in the Hebrides, 
sixty some odd are now in the British Museum. They were carved from walrus 
ivory, possibly in Iceland, and date from the 1100s or so, and are thus 
represent the oldest complete set in Europe. The most famous one is the 
"shield-biter" rook (Scandanavian chess sets had a soldier called a Warder 
instead of the "castle" type rook) depicting a berserk-type biting the edge 
of his shield), but the "queen with drinking horn" and the "Beardless King" 
are also famous. They make a guest appearance in HARRY POTTER in the 
lunchroom scene (not the giant chess room scene), and you can find pics by 
Googling for "Lewis Island Chessmen".

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 22:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Aug 13 21:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <200208140115.MSJ02824@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208140115.MSJ02824@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <1029298539.3d59d96b88760@www.paradise.net.nz>

Quoting "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>:

> "Rupert Boleyn" asks
> >How far forward and back.
> 
> The danger space in the Basic rules extends from 100 m in 
> front of the target to 100 m behind. The width of the beaten 
> zone depends on the gunner's desire. The minimum arc for an 
> L7A2 (FN MAG) at 800 yards is roughly 20 m (that's the 
> narrowest you can fire 7 rounds in 2 seconds into, based on 
> the charts). Two guns could easily cover an area 40m wide. 
> The gunner may opt for a wider arc, but that is usually 
> counterproductive. It's best to track the bursts left and 
> right rather that to spread a single burst over a wider area.

Seven rounds in two seconds? That's seriously slow - cyclic is over 20 rounds 
in that time, and I'd expect 2-3 6-10 round bursts in that time from a MAG set 
up the the SF (sustained fire) role.
 
> >I never noticed any recoil problem with a MAG on its tripod.
> 
> The tripod eliminates the recoil in PCCS. A proper gunner 
> can compensate for the recoil if you're not using the tripod.

Ah.
 
> Theoretically, using the Blind Fire rules and the automatic 
> fire rules, you could fire blind using the T&E mechanism at 
> night if you had presighted on a particular area during 
> daylight hours. If the target is stupid enough to stay in 
> the area, you can actually hit people.
> 
> It's also possible in the advanced rules to have a spotter 
> help you out while you fire. I'm imagining how bad things 
> would be if some experienced NCO was spotting for two FN MAG 
> gunners close by.

Properly set up an SF det (detachment - two guns) would have a spotter, and a 
surveyed position, fire arcs, etc. - just like artillery and with that sort of 
prep indirect fire into supposed blind spots is indeed practical. We do 
practise this sort of thing, as it's something that can rachically improve the 
capabilities of light infantry, especially in defence.

-- 
Rupert Boleyn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 22:20:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Aug 13 21:20:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <B97EFEA0.697A9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B97EFEA0.697A9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <1029298765.3d59da4dbdc18@www.paradise.net.nz>

Quoting Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>:

> I remember the "Dying Cockroach" (Doug?). You lay on you back with feet
> and arms pointed upward. Periodically, and for the benefit of those
> passing, you announce "I am a dying cockroach!" followed convulsing of
> the
> arms and legs. After a while, it become quite unpleasant to hold you
> arms
> and particularly your feet up.

That's new to me. One of our corporals had this neat idea of making recruits 
adopt the position and then extend their right arm in front of them holding an 
M16A1 while also holding their left leg in the air. You had to hold this 
position for five minutes or suffer even more punishment. IIRC the only recruit 
to ever manage this was a tiny woman. Most crapped out after about three 
minutes.

-- 
Rupert Boleyn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 22:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Aug 13 21:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <1029298765.3d59da4dbdc18@www.paradise.net.nz>
Message-ID: <B97F2A78.697FA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/13/02 9:19 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:

> That's new to me. One of our corporals had this neat idea of making recru=
its
> adopt the position and then extend their right arm in front of them holdi=
ng an
> M16A1 while also holding their left leg in the air. You had to hold this
> position for five minutes or suffer even more punishment. IIRC the only
> recruit=20
> to ever manage this was a tiny woman. Most crapped out after about three
> minutes.


One of our DIs was particularly found of low crawling, or rather, having th=
e
platoon low crawl.  This involved putting on a full rucksack first, then
crawling around on the crushed aggregate between the barracks for long
periods of time.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 22:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Aug 13 21:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
Message-ID: <200208140433.MSR00141@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Rupert Boleyn says
>Seven rounds in two seconds? That's seriously slow - cyclic 
>is over 20 rounds in that time, and I'd expect 2-3 6-10 
>round bursts in that time from a MAG set 
>up the the SF (sustained fire) role.

That's if you only pull the trigger once.  You could pull it 
more times in a combat round.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 22:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Tue Aug 13 21:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEICIMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <000801c2434d$095d56d0$6401a8c0@GOCA>

Hmm..the ship decal you mentioned sound's like Honest Horris's "Yo-Yo".

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of John-Martin
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 23:58
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Casting Space Viking



At the same time he is an intellectual, comfortable in loooonnnggggggggg
dissertations on history at the drop of a space helmet.  In his day,
Rutger Hauer might been a good Harkaman.  

I don't have the book at hand but Long would be good as Grav -- the head

of the Space Viking bunch on plant when the Nemesis spaces in.




Garvan Spasso?  Of the Space Scourge?

>>>>>>>>

Could well be.  I'm relying on memory here.  

I seem to recall a ladies hand dangling something, but don't 
quote me.

One of the better scenes in the whole book is a Space Viking 
questioning someone.

"See this, it's a verifier, it turns blue if you lie.  If you lie, 
I will make sure you don't lie again."  he lifts the butt of his gun.

jml

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TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 22:42:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Angus McDonald)
Date: Tue Aug 13 21:42:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Mail readers (was Re: Rockballs and Economy)
Message-ID: <OFE15F0EAB.EA06A487-ONCA256C15.000DE3A6@dnsalias.com>

>>>
>Well, if you have the option, I might suggest getting a copy of Fort=E9=20
Agent
>from http://www.forteinc.com - it quotes nicely, and also isn't susceptible
>to email viruses.  US$29.

Or Eudora <http://www.eudora.com/>, small ad window in the free version.
Good filtering and mailbox functions.  It can handle multiple accounts=20
too.
I've been using it for years.
<<<

Sorry guys, this is my work account and Notes is a tried and trusted=20
friend (not to mention runs half our business).

---  from  ---
Angus McDonald
www.falkayn.com

--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/html
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 22:44:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Aug 13 21:44:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Folding stocks
In-Reply-To: <B97EFEA0.697A9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3D5A2DED.19601.327E0C@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020813212750.009dd480@mindspring.com>

At 06:21 PM 8/13/02 -0700, you wrote:
>I remember the "Dying Cockroach"  (Doug?).

*twitch*

Damn it!  All those years of therapy undone.  I had just managed to forget 
the Dying Cockroach, thank you...


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 22:44:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Aug 13 21:44:30 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <173.cf1a5bd.2a8b12da@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020813212951.009e3bc0@mindspring.com>

At 09:56 PM 8/13/02 -0400, you wrote:
>  >Apparently, something political.  If you wanted to deal with real economic
>  >effects, you'd want to figure victory points based on the GWP of the
>captured
>  >worlds, which basically means the Zhodani win if they capture one high-pop
>  >world (Jewell, Efate, whatever).
>
>Why?  Jewell is a major world, but it only has 1% of the Spinward March's
>population, and only about 2% of its industrial capacity.

The three rules of real estate: location, Location, LOCATION!

Jewell is an industrial world pressed right up on the Zhodani 
Consulate.  Take it out, and the next serious threat is Efate.. beyond 
that, the high-tech hi-pop worlds are a good distance to the rear.  Jewell 
has to be reduced in order to secure a buffer zone.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 22:47:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Tue Aug 13 21:47:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020813222020.0212fdf8@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <000901c2434d$c0863980$6401a8c0@GOCA>

Wait a sec..I was remembering wrongly here..Garvan Spasso's ship was the
"Lamia".  Garvan is that greedy little SOB they shipped out to the Duke
of Didrecksberg in hopes he'd get himself killed.  Space Scourge's
skipper was just down on his luck and later picked himself back up after
the raid on Beowulf.

OK, who plays Lady Elaine Karvall-Trask?  Nikkoley Trask?  Lucas Trask?
Sesar Karvall?  Guatt Kurby?  Sharyl Renner?  Prince Simon Bentrick?
Lady Alverath?  King Mikal?  Rovard Grauffis?  Etc etc

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Mark Urbin
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 19:24
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Casting Space Viking

At 07:32 PM 8/13/2002 -0400, Damage169@cs.com wrote:
>Tod Glenn writes:
> > on 8/13/02 5:57 AM, Mark Urbin at eclipse@urbin.net wrote:
> > > At 12:28 AM 8/13/2002 -0700, J-Man wrote:
> > >> Garvan Spasso?  Of the Space Scourge?
> > > Garvan Spasso was Captain of the Lamia.
> > > You would want somebody weasel like to play him
> > Steve Buscemi?
>Nah, Gary Oldman.

I'd save Gary Oldman for Nevil Ormm;

"The face of the slightly taller man who stood at his [Andray Dunnan] 
shoulder was paperwhite, expressionless, with a black beard."
"His name was Nevil Ormm; nobody was quite sure whence he had come, and
he 
was Dunnan's henchman and constant companion."



------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
And, isn't sanity really just a one trick pony anyway? I mean, all you
get
is one trick: rational thinking. But when you're good and crazy, ooo hoo
hoo, the sky's the limit! - The Tick  http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
---


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 23:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Tue Aug 13 22:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveler Minatures
Message-ID: <200208140527.g7E5RLk14117@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>From: Mark Preston <mark@magpiesnest.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Traveler Minatures
...
> > Hello Everyone: AT one time RAFM manufactured a bunch of Traveler
...
>I have some superb Trav miniatures, nicely boxed in standard 
>Traveller-style boxes (LBB-style) but I don't think they are available 

  Those nice boxes (Jim Burns cover art - yeah!) were UK only (?)*
for the GW 15mm's; RAFM manufactured them in Canada (& the US?) 
under license and sold them in little baggies - I scored a stock
of them from NY last year, and they were RAFM baggies, too.

  *did anyone buy them in the boxes in the US, rather than picking
them up while overseas?

>any more. I had been planning to get some moulding poly and duplicate 
>them, but if anyone finds they are still available, please let me know 
>since I wouldn't want to break anyone's copyright on them.

  The copyright is GW's, although the Trav-specific stuff likely
couldn't be re-released w/o a license from FarFuture? IAC, no one
at GW cares to ever re-release them; the masters are probably in
storage somewhere - heck, maybe Foundry has `em through Ansell?

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 13 23:48:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ken Murphy)
Date: Tue Aug 13 22:48:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style
Message-ID: <F18746DYF9YdiuVls1D0001e7c0@hotmail.com>

Previously I'd asked about the Dragon with the Disintegrator article:
> >
> > >   Does anyone know what I'm talking about and have
> > access to this
> > > article, and if so, could I get a copy?
> >
>Phill, I have issue 95 and It's a one page article
>that has no charts and little in the way of
>quantitative values of what the weapons listed might
>do. I could sell it to you,BUT in my opinion, this one
>page article isnt' worth it. If you want,I could type
>the page out for everyone on the list to read in
>installments. Will anyone second this motion?

   Well, I know *my* vote would be to receive the info; in installments 
would be just fine. By all means consider this a seconded motion :)
  -Ken-

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 02:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug 14 01:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1029256363.5566.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020813123534.B18707@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1029256363.5566.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020814181100.A22124@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:

> As it happens, I tend to agree, but there's a fundamental problem
> here: high trade means a lot of transfer of ideas and people, and
> would tend to reduce the variation between worlds in Traveller.

Yes, it would tend to.  Not nearly as much as it has between nations
in our world though.  Weeks to months minimum communication time,
non-human sentient races, and greatly varied environments are all
diversifying factors that are not present in our world.


> Based on the extreme variations which can occur, trade must be
> fairly minor in the Imperium.

I'm not so sure that reasoning backward from "diversity" to "little
trade" makes for a strong argument.  If anything, diversity should
increase the benefits of trade, and there are plenty of explanations
for why the diversity remains.

I'm particularly uncertain of the benefits of undercutting the entire
foundation of the Imperium's reason for existence.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 02:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Wed Aug 14 01:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style
Message-ID: <002301c2436b$5287fa40$c0443b41@customer>

> Previously I'd asked about the Dragon with the Disintegrator article:
> > >
> > > >   Does anyone know what I'm talking about and have
> > > access to this
> > > > article, and if so, could I get a copy?
> > >
> >Phill, I have issue 95 and It's a one page article
> >that has no charts and little in the way of
> >quantitative values of what the weapons listed might
> >do. I could sell it to you,BUT in my opinion, this one
> >page article isn't worth it. If you want,I could type
> >the page out for everyone on the list to read in
> >installments. Will anyone second this motion?
>
>    Well, I know *my* vote would be to receive the info; in installments
> would be just fine. By all means consider this a seconded motion :)
>   -Ken-

Ken, I have issue 95 too.  In your initial post you mentioned
disintegrators.  The article, Antimissiles and Roundshot doesn't have
disintegrators in it.  It covers:

Minefields
Tractor/pressor beams
Solid-shot weapons
Antimissile clusters
Beam weapon superchargers

Now issue 108 has an article High Tech and Beyond.  This article covers
disintegrators and other TL 16 to 21 technology.  It's three pages with some
charts.

Of course MT, TNE, T4 and GT, I'm sure, cover disintegrators.  Though the
108 article WAS written for CT.  I could serialize this article for the
list, assuming anyone's interested and there's no one else with access to
that article who has more time on their hands than me.

John Scarlett
-------------------------
I'd be unstoppable, if I just had the energy to get started.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 02:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Wed Aug 14 01:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lanth subsector navies IMTU
In-Reply-To: <3D593484.ED98D834@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPMELPEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Having too many SDBs, not a problem, just rule that they are not yet
completed, or are in for refit, or as is normally the case both. As an
example take our Anzac class frigates, some are still being built, some are
in service and some are back in dry dock having a major keel problem dealt
with. In fact with the various movements of this class I have lost track on
just how many of the class are currently built.

Alternatively have the PCs command a SDB squadron. Based on my players you
won't have that excess for very long!

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Roseberry
Sent: Wednesday, 14 August 2002 12:32 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Lanth subsector navies IMTU


Rupert Boleyn asks:
>One question - Why do the system navies have so many ships and seem >to
lack monitors, SDBs and other non-jump capable vessels?

Mainly because I wanted to follow the deployments used in the FFW game.
The only SDB's in Lanth sub. are in FFW are at Extolay, Equus, and
Treece. Treece is actually only supposed to have 5 SDBs, so the 20 odd
BB8 types actually makes Treece more powerfull than it is in the game.

The other problem which you don't mention, is where is the auxiliarys?
Treece should have had some auxiliarys, at least some tankers.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 02:21:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Wed Aug 14 01:21:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Lanth subsector navies IMTU
In-Reply-To: <3D5A2EE3.6831.363FDC@localhost>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPOELPEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

IMTU In times of emergency the Imperium authorises the requisitioning of
shipping for the purpose of transport, tankers, relief operations etc. What
may not be known is that this does not necessarily apply only to subsidised
merchants. Also planetary governments may have the same powers under their
imperial membership charters. This may also mean the crew is impressed into
service for the term of the emergency.

Whether the ships owners are compensated for this use or indemnified against
the loss of the vessel is covered by a different government department
(Treasury) try getting money out of a Treasury department!

Several adventure threads leap out at me here. Such as the PCs are the
owners/crew of a vessel just requisitioned for use as a convoy or merchant
patrol vessel. (High risk that!) But could be exciting.

Antony


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Rupert Boleyn
Sent: Wednesday, 14 August 2002 6:20 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Lanth subsector navies IMTU


On 13 Aug 2002 at 11:32, Roseberry wrote:

> Mainly because I wanted to follow the deployments used in the FFW game.
> The only SDB's in Lanth sub. are in FFW are at Extolay, Equus, and
> Treece. Treece is actually only supposed to have 5 SDBs, so the 20 odd
> BB8 types actually makes Treece more powerfull than it is in the game.

Ok, that's fair enough.

> The other problem which you don't mention, is where is the auxiliarys?
> Treece should have had some auxiliarys, at least some tankers.

There's that, too. I assumed that they'd be aquired by activating
reserve vessels, commandeering them, etc. IOW taking them out of the
merchant 'marine'.

--
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 02:21:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Wed Aug 14 01:21:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Land grab webring
In-Reply-To: <02081217425801.00595@linux>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPAEMAEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Hey,

I voted in favour too!

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of richard honeycutt
Sent: Tuesday, 13 August 2002 5:43 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Land grab webring



> >>Any interest in a webring of landgrab sites?
> >
> >Yes!  It would encourage me to get a few planets put together and on the
> > web.
>
> Ok, that's two yes votes (besides me).  I'm willing to set it up and
> administer it.
> It might be nice to have the home page as the downport landgrab page.
>
	Add another vote for me. 

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 02:22:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug 14 01:22:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <200208140119.MSJ03121@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208140119.MSJ03121@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020814182045.B22124@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> So, we want trade rules that are as comprehensive as the old 
> logistics rules in that SPI game "Campaign For North 
> Africa"...

Haven't seen it, but I'd probably be happier with far more detailed
trade rules than exist.  Good solid sociological and macroeconomic
rules would be useful too, for those empire-spanning generational
games.

If necessary, at the extreme expense of ...

> We want small arms combat rules

... for which I care not one whit.


> We want a weapon, vehicle, and ship design system that is a
> gearhead's delight...

Hey, don't forget genetic engineering, AI programming, oh, and a
Theory of Everything that fully explains jumpspace, reactionless
drives and meson communicators. :)


> And we want Loren to write a History of the Imperium - to settle all
> those old canon arguments about dates, motivations, etc.

A detailed and self-consistent set of rules for NPC psychology in
general would be handy, including motivations, internal conflicts,
biases, thought patterns, and personality traits that aren't simple
advantages or disadvantages.  Non-human psychology as well, of course.

Well, where is it?  I want it yesterday!


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 02:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug 14 01:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208131837090.737-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
References: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMELDIMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net> <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208131837090.737-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <20020814182158.C22124@freeman.little-possums.net>

Azalais Malfoy wrote:
> I prefer letting the role-playing take care of trade issues, and I
> hate math and prolonged dice-rolling.

I don't care much for dice-rolling, but I *love* math.  The more the
better :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 02:23:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 14 01:23:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Lanth subsector navies IMTU
Message-ID: <1ce3981cf74c.1cf74c1ce398@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>
Date: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 7:40 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Lanth subsector navies IMTU

> Phill Webb asks:
> >Hey Dan do you think you could do Aramis as of 1106?
> 
> Hmmm. Aramis is a little out of the way for me. 
> 
> I'll do it for 60 quadloos. You got 60 quadloos?

If not, you can get some from the Temple ov thee Lemur:

http://totl.net/VCash/set.php3

BTW, I don't recall if I mentioned this previously on the list, but 
TotL's Human Virus Scanner features the Imperial Sunburst as a memetic 
virus....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 02:25:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug 14 01:25:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <B97F02B7.697AF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <200208140119.MSJ03121@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <B97F02B7.697AF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020814182442.D22124@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> "You are taking fire RIGHT NOW!  What do you do?  TOO SLOW, they
> have you zero'd.  You're hit."

Ick.  I *hate* that, it makes things outside the game interfere with
the in-game events.  For instance, I'm a slow decision-maker in real
life; you would condemn all my characters to share the same trait.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 04:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Aug 14 03:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style
In-Reply-To: <20020812090622.62065.qmail@web11807.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20814.021415.5i8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>>    Does anyone know what I'm talking about and have
>> access to this article, 
>> and if so, could I get a copy?
>>    Thanks in advance for any help :)
>>   -Ken Murphy-
>> 
> I have a few really old Dragons. I acquired them
> recently, and haven't really read them yet. You
> wouldn't have a clue as to which issue, or maybe the
> year of the issue?

If he can narrow that downm some of us have the CD set with all the old
Dragons on it.

BTW, I heard that they'd made similar diles from the old Little Wars
magazine available somewhere. Anybody know where?

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 04:01:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Aug 14 03:01:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <m3bs87r262.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20814.002653.3g0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> So far, the official numbers seem to indicate that there's not an
> awful lot of trade in relative terms.  This is not awfully surprising:
> it's expensive to put stuff up into orbit and expensive to ship it.

Huh? What makes you think it's expensive to get stuff into orbit?

I seem to recall someone running the numbers a while back and having it
come out cheaper than shipping by rail.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 04:56:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Wed Aug 14 03:56:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style
In-Reply-To: <002301c2436b$5287fa40$c0443b41@customer>
Message-ID: <000601c24420$14d2b270$1001a8c0@sauron>

Just a quick note, no-one bother typing any Dragon articles in, I have
the Dragon CD.
If anyone wants the articles I'll cut the text and and mail it to yer.

Issue 108 has "Hi-Tech and Beyond" which is three pages and has few
tables.

The article in #95 is called "Antimissiles and Roundshot" and is on
variant ship-to-ship weapons. It's really pretty basic, and so short I
might as well dump it here.

I'll cut and paste the other one here if people don't object too much,
otherwise I'll email direct to those interested.


Antimissiles and Roundshot
Variant ship-to-ship weapons for TRAVELLER gaming
by Jefferson P. Swycaffer

The first things that the average game player does with a new game are
to learn it, to absorb it, and to play it. Then he fiddles with it. The
TRAVELLER game is one of the best games for tinkering, being built on a
bold enough and broad enough framework to support variants without
losing either playability or enjoyability.

On the other hand, the TRAVELLER game is one of the few role-playing
games actually designed with game balance clearly in mind. Book 5, High
Guard, is especially complex, offering a space combat system that is
carefully balanced. Any variant that destroys that balance cannot be a
good one.

New weapons are fun to experimentwith. What balance is best between
offensive and defensive weapons? If two ships that are both built on
offensive-intensive weapon balances enter combat, the combat will be
brief and bloody. If the ships are defensively built, the combat might
be interminable.

Of the weapons types in High Guard, the spinal mount weapons will most
often dominate the battleboard. These are terrifically powerful weapons.
Do we actually need them? If the provision for spinal mount weapons is
deleted from High Guard, the tone and pacing ofthe battles becomes more
reminiscent of a World War I or World War II naval battle. Some of the
science-fiction movie spectaculars we&#8217;ve come to love have the same feel
to their space combat. Spinal mount weapons are, for some of us,
jarring.

Some variant weapons with which toexperiment in your TRAVELLER campaigns
are given below in general form.

Minefields: Minefields can be openly planted in one turn by any missile
turret
or weapons bay that does not fire in that turn. In any subsequent turn,
the same
missile strength can be used to attack any enemy ship that closes from
long range to close range. The players must keep track of each mine
laid, eliminating them as each is used. The missile attack factor must
roll to hit and penetrate as normal.

Tractor/pressor beam: A tractor beam is a 100-ton bay weapon (Tech Level
14) that costs ten Energy Points per 1,000 tons of the ship upon which
it is mounted. A ship may, in addition to its other combats in a turn,
use a tractor beam to pull any one enemy ship of 1% or less of its own
mass from long range to close range. A pressor beam may be used to push
an enemy ship of 1% or less of the firing ship&#8217;s mass from close range
to long range. Only one tractor or pressor (and never both) may be fired
in one turn by any one ship, no matter
how many are installed. A &#8220;to hit&#8221; roll must be made on the same table
and with the same die modifiers as a laser beam weapon.

Solid-shot weapons: Though the idea may seems strange (&#8220;Shiver me
timbers, Cap&#8217;n, they&#8217;re pegging roundshot at us!&#8221;), hitting a projected
cloud of round-shot at several thousand kilometers per second is not as
funny an idea as it might sound. A solid-shot weapon would be a turret
weapon, identical in characteristics to a sandcaster. Make the &#8220;to hit&#8221;
rolls as if the weapon were an energy beam (i.e., not effective at long
range), with the added rule that any ship hit by solid shot may negate
the hit and bypass the roll on the damage tables by moving to long range
at the next range determination step.

This weapon and the tractor/pressor beam may cause affected ships to
violate the High Guard rule that states that all ships should be at the
same range from the enemy. Ships pushed or pulled by a tractor/pressor
beam or those attempting to escape a solid-shot cloud must
rejoin their fleets at the &#8220;regular&#8221; range in the next turn.

Antimissile cluster: Fired from any missile turret or bay in place of
any missile battery that does not fire ordinary missiles in that turn, a
cluster of antimissile dartlets may be unleashed with the same firing
factor as the missile battery. Incoming missiles must pene-
trate these on the Missile Attack Table as if trying to penetrate sand
or beam defenses.

Beam weapon superchargers: Since most of the energy that goes into any
beam weapon is wasted, being expelled as waste heat, dispersed photons,
and so forth, an attempt may be made to render such weapons more
efficient with some mixed results. Any energy beam or laser turret or
bay may be equipped with a supercharger.
A supercharged beam will have either a +1, +2, or +3 on the penetration
roll on the beam weapon table (but not on the &#8220;to hit&#8221; roll), with the
complication that, if the bonus value or less is rolled on a single
six-sided die, that battery is reduced one factor as if hit in combat. A
laser battery of factor 9 taking a +3 on its penetration rolls will be
reduced to factor 8 on a roll of 1, 2, or 3 on a d6.
Superchargers cost Cr 1,000,000 for each weapon so equipped, and all
weapons in a battery must be equipped with a supercharger for the
battery to fire with a bonus. No extra energy is consumed by
supercharged fire. The option is left to the player as to whether the
bonus will be +1, +2, or +3, or even no bonus in each particular turn.
Many other weapons variants are possible, but one guideline should be
kept in mind: no system should ever gain something for nothing. There
should be no &#8220;super weapons&#8221; against
which defense is not possible. Game balance is still the senior admiral
aboard
any warship.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 05:16:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Wed Aug 14 04:16:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traditional Schools
Message-ID: <memo.852139@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <45.1bafadb7.2a8b2f89@aol.com>
> >But is there a single Naval 
> >Academy per sector, or subsector? 
> 
> What I'm going to say in Nobles is that there are several academies, 
> _roughly_ one per sector, _normally_ at the Depot for that sector. 
> There is also at least one "School Afloat" academy held with a major 
> fleet.
> 
> Also for Nobles, I'm looking at a sidebar-type essay on a couple of 
> forms of chess in the far future. 
 
MTU is scattered with establishments of that kind. Many have fancy names & 
even fancier traditions. Some Nobles' offspring go to the sort of 
quasi-Military Academy schools, others go to something a bit more like an 
English Public School (Eton) - where archaic forms of dress are worn, 
bizarre sports are taken extremely seriously and subjects you'll never 
need again are studied.

You can get a basic OCS-type training just about anywhere there's a major 
military facility of the service branch you're interested in, but each 
Imperial Sector has a proper 'Academy' with all the formalities and 
traditions of a West Point or a Sandhurst. And their own unique uniform, 
at times. A band, perhaps. People who go there take a combination of 
military training & a degree, takes a 4-year term rather than the 1-year 
OCS, and are generally those intending a full military career and gunning 
for those Sky Marshal stars. Few people get there who do not attend as 
their first term (start at age 18), and it is also a prestigious 
'Instructor' posting for career military later on in life.

> I've kind of got chess on the brain lately -- for many years, I have 
> wanted a set of the Lewis Island Chessmen

Aha! Another fan of the Lewis Island Chessmen. They are rather fine :-)

A school friend had a set. She didn't even play chess, just looked at 
them. She still has them in her house in London.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 06:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Aug 14 05:03:02 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020812231518.02567c80@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20814.041409.4E2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 03:47 PM 8/12/2002 -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>In mail you write:
>> > Let's dig out my copy of the Traveller Book...TL 5
>> > c. 1900-1939   Early computers...visions of TL 9 and A percomps being 
> used
>> > to run life support systems...
>>Who say you *need* computers to run life support? It's easily doable
>>with *much* older tech than that.
>
> Not me.  But these are the sort of things they can easily pick up in trade.
> Surplus handcomps for local art work.  If they can get them, they will use 
> them.
> Even if it's just to run the numbers instead of doing 'em by hand or having 
> a room full of people with mechanical calculators.

Analog computers may be well suited to some of this. And that includes
things such as slide rules and nomograpghs.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 06:03:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Aug 14 05:03:34 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <006701c242fb$225efc30$67e84242@upstairs>
Message-ID: <20814.043437.2f4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> Not exactly. They both exist as a *mixed state*. The observation
>> collapses the wave function.
>
> Sorry to barge in here, but what is the result when multiple
> simultaeneous observatios are made on the same photon? IIRC, the tools
> we'd use to record the position of the photon prevent this (kind of like
> locking it into a place/time,) but if I'm wrong about that...Is the
> photon seen as in two or more places at once?

Simultaneous is a meaningless concept in physics if you are talking
about events occuring at different locations. 

And the uncertainty principle means that (for example) observing the
position of a photon to high precision destroys the momentum
information and vice versa.

> And while I'm at it, what does the universe do with all the "unobserved"
> interactions among particles? I'm thinking that I don't properly
> understand the term observation, because when I think of observation,
> I'm thinking of a person or a tool/instrument that makes an observation
> or record of the event...

Okm the "rteality" is quantum wave functions. Which amount to "there's
a 35% probability that ot's *here*, a 64% possibility it's there, and a
1% probability it's somewhere else".

As the wave functions interacting you get spreading "waves" of
probability. That is, the probability that it was over here interacts
with the probability that some other particle was somewhere else,
leading to further probability distributions for the current and future
positions of both particles. 

Multiply that by the huge numbers of particles that are involved in
most things and it gets *really* ugly.

Once you "make an observation", you've pinned the particle down as to
it either is or is not where you "looked". With the result that any
probabilty waves for other particles that are inconsistent with that
result vanish. Ones that are consistent with it remain. 

This is properly discussed with math. And *I* am not up to it.

> I'm considering applying this to Jump space...perhaps a ship and her
> crew are in multiple places or constantly state shifting during their
> flight in Jump space.

It's not "multiple places". It's that it's only "partially" anywhere
(the probability functions) until the wave "collapses". 

The classic two-slit experiment has the two slits that a phton (or any
other particle) can go thru. If you semd a bunch of them thru, you get
interference patterns, as they act like waves when they go thru.

If you send a *single* particle, you can either detect it at one slit
or not. But if you don't try to detect it, things can happen that show
it went thru *both* slits. Sort of.

The experiments that showed it wasn't "going" to go thru one or the
other at the point it was emitted worked something like this.

The photon was sent out. Then *after* it was moving, the path to one
slit was blocked. And one detector was switched on.

There are 4 possible configurations.

Detector A on, slot A blocked
Detector A on, slot B blocked
Detector B on, slot A blocked
Detector B on, Slot B blocked

And the possible results are that either the detector that was switched
on will detector or it won't. If a photon wasn't detected, either it
went thru the other slot, or it was blocked.

If the photon was defintely headed for a particular slot at the point
it was emitted (the hidden variables theory) then the number of
detected photons for each configuration would break down a certain way.

If trying to observe it determined which slot it went thru, the numbers
would break down a different way (do a search on "Bell's Inequality").

The numbers showed that the path *wasn't* predetermined.

ps. don't hold me to the experimental description above. I almost
certainly have details wromg. But it's the general idea.


-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 06:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed Aug 14 05:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1029256097.5137.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20814.050005.1Q1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
>
>> Yes, but the required *spacing* for such a bumper depends on the
>> velocity of the impactor.
>
> Actually, no it doesn't, as long as impact velocity is sufficient to 
> completely
> vaporize both objects.  If a 1 gram bead hits one gram of armor, the 
> resulting
> spray of material will be around a 45 degree cone, regardless of the actual
> speed of the impactor.

Not at near c velocities it won't.

As someone pointed out, "impact" gets more than a bit weird at those
velocities. The impactor acts more like a burst of high energy cosmic
rays, which most assuredly *don't* spread that way.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 06:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 14 05:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style
Message-ID: <262e11261c3c.261c3c262e11@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel Tackett <haegen2001@yahoo.com>
Date: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 11:49 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style

<<snips discussion of relevant Dragon article>>

 you want,I could type
> the page out for everyone on the list to read in
> installments. Will anyone second this motion?

Bad Idea [tm].  Things have barely cooled down from the _last_ copyright 
flame war last summer.... :-(



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 07:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Aug 14 06:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Mail readers (was Re: Rockballs and Economy)
In-Reply-To: <OFE15F0EAB.EA06A487-ONCA256C15.000DE3A6@dnsalias.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814092812.0267beb0@192.168.0.1>

At 12:33 PM 8/14/2002 +1000, Angus McDonald wrote:
> >Well, if you have the option, I might suggest getting a copy of Fort
>Agent
> >from http://www.forteinc.com - it quotes nicely, and also isn't susceptible
> >to email viruses.  US$29.
>Or Eudora <http://www.eudora.com/>, small ad window in the free version.
>Good filtering and mailbox functions.  It can handle multiple accounts
>too.
>I've been using it for years.
>Sorry guys, this is my work account and Notes is a tried and trusted
>friend (not to mention runs half our business).

When I worked at a Notes using company, I kept Eudora on my laptop for 
private email.
(I got quite enough work related email on Notes, thank you very much)

Now I'm at an Outlook (curse, spit, wash hands; go ahead and mock me...it 
won't be worse than having to use outlook) shop with a serious set of IT 
fascists.

Fee on them, I have my Palm i705!



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 07:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Aug 14 06:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Land grab webring
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPAEMAEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <02081217425801.00595@linux>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814093229.0290eeb0@192.168.0.1>

I think we may have a quorum...

I'll set it up this weekend and announce it here.

At 04:10 PM 8/14/2002 +0800, Antony Farrell wrote:
>Hey,
>
>I voted in favour too!
>
>Antony
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
>[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of richard honeycutt
>Sent: Tuesday, 13 August 2002 5:43 AM
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>Subject: Re: [TML] Land grab webring
>
>
>
> > >>Any interest in a webring of landgrab sites?
> > >
> > >Yes!  It would encourage me to get a few planets put together and on the
> > > web.
> >
> > Ok, that's two yes votes (besides me).  I'm willing to set it up and
> > administer it.
> > It might be nice to have the home page as the downport landgrab page.
> >
>         Add another vote for me.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 07:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Aug 14 06:35:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <20814.002653.3g0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <m3bs87r262.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814093359.01680b70@192.168.0.1>

At 12:26 AM 8/14/2002 -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
> > So far, the official numbers seem to indicate that there's not an
> > awful lot of trade in relative terms.  This is not awfully surprising:
> > it's expensive to put stuff up into orbit and expensive to ship it.
>Huh? What makes you think it's expensive to get stuff into orbit?
>I seem to recall someone running the numbers a while back and having it
>come out cheaper than shipping by rail.

Isn't the access to launch facilities a bit more limited than rail access?



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Blend 'B', meanwhile, is a PROUD blend, defiant yet petulant...a blend
that grabs you, shakes you by the collar and cries, 'ACCEPT me, damn you,
or turn me away-BUT FOR GOD'S SAKE DON'T POLLUTE ME WITH NON-DAIRY
CREAMER!'" - Tripp Biscuit while coffee tasting.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 07:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Aug 14 06:38:03 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in
 traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <20814.041409.4E2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020812231518.02567c80@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814093505.02630008@192.168.0.1>

At 04:14 AM 8/14/2002 -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
> > At 03:47 PM 8/12/2002 -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> >>In mail you write:
> >> > Let's dig out my copy of the Traveller Book...TL 5
> >> > c. 1900-1939   Early computers...visions of TL 9 and A percomps being
> > used
> >> > to run life support systems...
> >>Who say you *need* computers to run life support? It's easily doable
> >>with *much* older tech than that.
> > Not me.  But these are the sort of things they can easily pick up in trade.
> > Surplus handcomps for local art work.  If they can get them, they will use
> > them.
> > Even if it's just to run the numbers instead of doing 'em by hand or 
> having
> > a room full of people with mechanical calculators.
>Analog computers may be well suited to some of this. And that includes
>things such as slide rules and nomograpghs.

I think we're in violent agreement on this.

If it's a hand cranked adding machine, abacus or slide rule, all are 
available in TL 5.
This can also be done by one bright soph with a surplus TL B handcomp 
picked up in trade for a load of local artwork.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 07:40:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Aug 14 06:40:04 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
Message-ID: <200208141339.MTJ01017@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson says
>Analog computers may be well suited to some of this. And 
>that includes things such as slide rules and nomograpghs.

I was surprised to find out that the Nike Hercules missile 
had an analog computer (and a rather simple one) that 
determined detonation proximity.  For a missile travelling at 
that speed, it worked rather well.  In fact, a digital 
computer trying to do the same task does a lot more "work".

Mind you, digital computers can be more easily modified (by 
writing new software) to do the task better, or to do another 
task altogether.

I've been wondering at what tech level does the quantum 
computer appear?  I have the nagging feeling that in real 
life, the quantum computer (a practical one) may appear 
before I retire.  There seems to be a huge paradigm shift 
that will take place once such a computer can be made - a 
larger change than the transition from analog to digital.

One other note - usually an analog computer is less "buggy" 
than a digital computer - but that may be because it is 
usually designed as simply as possible for a single task.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 07:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Aug 14 06:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
Message-ID: <200208141347.MTJ01845@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Leonard Erickson says
>This is properly discussed with math. And *I* am not up to 
>it.


One of the things I dislike is an instant retreat 
into "math".  Something I've seen in Feynman's writings (as 
well as Wheeler and Einstein) is that there is a "local" 
thought experiment - and then they figure out the math.  If 
it can't be discussed in a local context, then any resulting 
math isn't going to make sense.

One of the questions I have always wondered about concerning 
the two slit experiment is the source of the interference.  

If we don't measure the photon, we get an interference 
pattern.  Even if we send only one photon through at a time.  
If we measure the photon *after* it goes through the slits, 
it takes either one slit or the other.  In any case, the 
photon has been interfered with prior to going through the 
slits - in one case to produce an interference pattern, and 
in the other case to go one way or the other.

Something is interfering with the photon.  And it's not 
something visible in the experiment.  So what is it?  Don't 
retreat into probability functions, please - those are only 
after-the-fact descriptions - not explanations of what is 
happenning.

________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 07:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Wed Aug 14 06:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style inst. 1
In-Reply-To: <F18746DYF9YdiuVls1D0001e7c0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020814135812.96594.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>

AntiMissiles and Roundshot.

THe first things that the average game player does
with a new game are to learn it to absorb it and to
play it. Then he fiddles with it. The Traveller game
is one of the best games for tinkering, being built on
a bold enough and broad enough framework to support
variants without losing either playability  or
enjoyability.
     On th other hand, the Traveller game is one of
the few role-playing games actually designed with game
balance clearly in mind. Book 5 is especially complex,
offering a space combat system that is carefully
balanced.  Any variant that destroys that balance
cannot be a good one.


=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
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HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 08:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 14 07:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <17.2cc7c4a6.2a8bc01d@aol.com>

 >>  >Apparently, something political.  If you wanted to deal with real 
economic
 >>  >effects, you'd want to figure victory points based on the GWP of the
 >>captured
 >>  >worlds, which basically means the Zhodani win if they capture one 
high-pop
 >>  >world (Jewell, Efate, whatever).
 >>
 >>Why?  Jewell is a major world, but it only has 1% of the Spinward March's
 >>population, and only about 2% of its industrial capacity.
 >
 >The three rules of real estate: location, Location, LOCATION!
 >
 >Jewell is an industrial world pressed right up on the Zhodani 
 >Consulate.  Take it out, and the next serious threat is Efate.. beyond 
 >that, the high-tech hi-pop worlds are a good distance to the rear.  Jewell 
 >has to be reduced in order to secure a buffer zone.

That's no reason to surrender the instant Jewell is lost.

And there you go again, thinking strictly in terms of Zhodane on offense, 
Imperium always and forever on passive defense.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 08:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gregory Carl Kettler)
Date: Wed Aug 14 07:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <20020814182045.B22124@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0208140920470.2949-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>

On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Timothy Little wrote:
> A detailed and self-consistent set of rules for NPC psychology in
> general would be handy, including motivations, internal conflicts,
> biases, thought patterns, and personality traits that aren't simple
> advantages or disadvantages.  Non-human psychology as well, of course.

Hmm...  I never thought of that before, but I think if something like that
were well-done it would become indispensable for every RPG ever published.

	Gregory Kettler
	"Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before."
			--Dave, KODT


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 08:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Wed Aug 14 07:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style inst. 1
In-Reply-To: <F18746DYF9YdiuVls1D0001e7c0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020814144227.37197.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>

AntiMissiles and Roundshot.

THe first things that the average game player does
with a new game are to learn it to absorb it and to
play it. Then he fiddles with it. The Traveller game
is one of the best games for tinkering, being built on
a bold enough and broad enough framework to support
variants without losing either playability  or
enjoyability.
     On th other hand, the Traveller game is one of
the few role-playing games actually designed with game
balance clearly in mind. Book 5 is especially complex,
offering a space combat system that is carefully
balanced.  Any variant that destroys that balance
cannot be a good one.
     New weapons are fun to experiment with. What
balance is best between offensive and defensive
weapons? If two ships that are both built on
offensive-intensive weapon balances a=enter combat,
the combat will be brief and bloody. If the ships are
defensively built, the combat might be interminable.
Of the weapons types in High Guard, the spinal mount
wepons will most often dominate the battleboard. The
are terrifically powerful weapons. Do we actually need
them? If the provision for spinal mount weapons is
deleted from High Guard, the tone and pacing of the
battles becomes more reminiscent of a World War I or
II naval battle.  Some of the science-fiction movie
spectaculars we've come to love have the same feel to
their space combat. Spinal mount weapons are, for some
of us , jarring
     Some variant weapons with which to experiment in
our Traveller campaigns are given below in general
form.  
     Mine fields: Minefields can be openly planted in
one turn by any missile turret or weapons bay that
does not fire in that turn. In any subsequent turn,
the same missile strength can be used to attack any
enemy ship that closes from long range to close range.
 The  players must keep track of each mine laid,
eliminating them as each is used. The missile attack
factor must roll to hit and penetrate as normal. 
     Tractor/Pressor beam: A tractor beam is a 100 ton
bay weapon (TL 14) that costs ten energy points per
1000 tons of the ship upon which it's mounted. A ship
may, in addition to its other combats in a turn,use a
tractor beam to pull any one enemy ship of 1% or less
of its own mass from long range to close range. (THe
pressor does exactly the same in reverse) Only one
tractor or pressor (and never both) may be fired in
one turn by any one ship, no matter how many are
installed. A "to hit" roll must be made on the same
table and with the same die modifiers as a laser beam
weapon.
Solid shot weapons: Though the idea may seem strange,
hitting a projected cloud of roundshot at several
thousand Kilometers per second is not as funny an idea
as it might sound. A solid-shot weapon would be a
turret weapon identical in characteristics to a 
sandcaster. Make the "to hit" rolls as if the weapon
were an energy beam(i.e. not effective at long range)
with the added rule that any ship hit by solid shot
may negate the hit and bypass the roll on the damage
tables by moving to long range at the next range
dtermination step. This weapon and the tractor/pressor
beam may cause affected ships to violate the High
Guard rule that states that all ships  should be  at
the same range  from the enemy. Ships pushed of pulled
by a tractor/pressor beam or those attempting to
escape a solid-shot cloud must rejoins their fleets at
the "regular" range in the next turn.
    Antimissile cluster: Fired from any missile turret
or bay in place of any missile batery that does not
fire ordinary missiles in that turn, a cluster of
antimissile dartlets may be unleashed with the same
firing factor as the missile battery.  Incoming
missiles must penetrate these on the Missile Attack
Table as if trying to penetrate sand or beam defenses.
 Beam weapon superchargers: Since most of the energy
that goes into any beam weapon is wasted, being
expelled as waste heat,dispersed photons,and so forth,
an attempt may be made to render such weapons more
efficient with some mixed results. Any energy beam or
laser turret or bay may be equipped with a
supercharger. 
     A supercharged beam will have either a +1,+2 or
+3 on the penetration roll on the beam weapon table
(but not on the "to hit" roll), with the complication
that, if the bonus value or less is rolled on a single
six-sided die, that battery is reduced one factor as
if hit in combat.  A laser battery of factor 9 taking
a +3 on its penetration rolls will be reduced to
factor 8 on a roll of 1,2, or 3 on a d6.
Superchargers cost Cr 1,000,000 for each weapon so
equipped, and all weapons  in a battery must be
equipped with a supercharger for the battery to fire
with a bonus.  No extra energy is consumed by
supercharged fire. The option is left to the player as
to whether the bonus will be +1,+2 or +3, or even  no
bonus in each particular turn.
     Many other weapons variants are possible,but one
guidline should be kept in mind: no system should ever
gain something for nothing. Ther should be no "super
weapons" against which defense is not possible. Game
balance is still the senior admirl aboard any warship.

THis was taken from an article by Jefferson P.
Swycaffer.
I went ahead and put the whole thing in one message
here instead of installments. I got on a roll and kept
going. 
Upon reading this article again, I started to respect
it more. It doesn't have a lot of new rules or charts
for these weapons because they're not needed. The
charts that already exist in the rules are used and
wisely so. One wouldn't want to go around creating new
rules toying around with the canon.

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 08:43:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Wed Aug 14 07:43:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
Message-ID: <memo.857356@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0208140920470.2949-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
> > A detailed and self-consistent set of rules for NPC psychology in
> > general would be handy, including motivations, internal conflicts,
> > biases, thought patterns, and personality traits that aren't simple
> > advantages or disadvantages.  Non-human psychology as well, of course.
> 
> Hmm...  I never thought of that before, but I think if something like 
> that
> were well-done it would become indispensable for every RPG ever 
> published.

Never thought of codifying this: it just kinda flows naturally when I am 
creating a scenario.... or (often) while running it! My notes are covered 
with scribbles that I make during play to ensure that I remember what each 
of the NPCs is like the next time the characters meet him.

Another trick I use is 'name-triggers' - in the game I'm running at the 
moment, there's an Internal Security officer who has the same name as my 
boss at work. I can give him the same style, attitudes, etc., he just 
happens to have a different job... but he approaches it in the same way. 
The name alone triggers this.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 08:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Wed Aug 14 07:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style
In-Reply-To: <000601c24420$14d2b270$1001a8c0@sauron>
Message-ID: <20020814144741.61736.qmail@web11804.mail.yahoo.com>

Thanks a heap. Posted while I was writing the thing.
If you do find the Disintegrator article I'd love to
see it. Where'd you get that c.d?  I would have
scanned it in if my scanner were working, but alas. I
now have typing-2 after that.

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
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HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 09:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Wed Aug 14 08:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Aramis ss. navy builds IMTU
Message-ID: <3D5A749C.3AD1B9B0@mail.cswnet.com>

These are the initial navy builds for fleets in the Aramis subsector.
Done using "meduim navies". The budgets listed below are the usual peace
time budgets times ten. Tech levels are listed for the 80% of the fleets
that are modern; obsolete is of course at least 1 TL less.

TLF Imperial Forces, Aramis subsector, MCr 3478268.928

Colonial and Planetary Navies:
TL8 Corfu MCr 1300
TLA Focaline MCr 208.25
TLA Lablon MCr 192.5
TLA Violante MCr 13.3
TLB Carsten MCr 14
TL7 Zila MCr 24500
TL7 Yebab MCr 231750
TLB Nasemin MCr 21
TLB L'oeul D'Diou MCr 140
TLA Rugbird MCr 2520
TLA Towers MCr 20.825
TLD Lewis MCr 17.5
TLB Aramis MCr 232.75
TL9 Junidy MCr 11550000 
Thats right friends! Junidy has 11.5 TC Squadrons.
Don't mess with the LLellewyloly. They got Flower Power!!! 
TL8 Reacher MCr 59.5

other notes:
I found stuff on Jesedipere. Listed as pop 4000; they added Cr15000 to
the IN budget.

Attention Phill Webb:
What you could do, in lieu of quadloos, is to send 72 crates [18dt] of
Zilan wine. That would help me finish this quickly. Course you could do
it yourself with HGS now that the hard part is done. What ever floats
your boat.

On Lewis:
Since this is IMTU, I should tell you that the Lewisian Navy got largely
wasted in 1105. They made a good acounting for themselves though,
destroying a Gionetti CL, a Fer-de-Lance Destroyer, 2 Gazelle CE's,
numerous free traders, plus capturing a yacht and a scout ship.
One Type P Corsair is also thought to have been responisble for raiding
the Imperial Research Station on Vanejeen/Rhylanor.
The ground elements managed to hold the Imperial Marines at bay for at
least 3 weeks before surrendering. The budget listed above is what the
Lewisians at home have left. 1 Type P corsair is thought to have
survived; its last known location was Quopist/Lanth. This report is
several months old, however.
 
Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 10:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Aug 14 09:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Beanstalks in 15 years!
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020813214526.02abb008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029341650.3145.ajackson@ping>

Mark Urbin writes:
> 
> Once the first one is built, and it's getting payload into orbit much 
> cheaper than rockets/shuttles,
> more will be much easier to get funding for...

However, enlarging an existing beanstalk is definately cheaper than building a
new one.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 10:18:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Aug 14 09:18:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style
In-Reply-To: <002301c2436b$5287fa40$c0443b41@customer>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029341843.9882.ajackson@ping>

John Scarlett writes:

> Of course MT, TNE, T4 and GT, I'm sure, cover disintegrators.

I have no idea about MT, TNE mentions disintegrators but doesn't provide stats,
T4 doesn't even mention disintegrators, GT does have disintegrators though I'm
not certain whether they use GURPS disintegrators or GURPS displacers for the
mechanic.  Didn't Twilight's Peak have a disintegrator somewhere?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 10:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Wed Aug 14 09:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <20020814182158.C22124@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208140918420.26781-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Timothy Little wrote:

> Azalais Malfoy wrote:
> > I prefer letting the role-playing take care of trade issues, and I
> > hate math and prolonged dice-rolling.
> 
> I don't care much for dice-rolling, but I *love* math.  The more the
> better :)

Have fun doing all the math you like, but why inflict it on me when I
really want to role-play?  It isn't necessary for a role-playing game to
be an arithmetic test, is it?  I don't like games where, even with a
calculator, I have to give up and get a friend to help me design my
character, and there's not even any hope of being able to design my ship.
I *loved* CT and still do.

**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 10:23:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug 14 09:23:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <memo.857356@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020814090047.009e4c20@mindspring.com>

At 03:42 PM 8/14/02 +0100, you wrote:
>In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0208140920470.2949-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
> > > A detailed and self-consistent set of rules for NPC psychology in
> > > general would be handy, including motivations, internal conflicts,
> > > biases, thought patterns, and personality traits that aren't simple
> > > advantages or disadvantages.  Non-human psychology as well, of course.
> >
> > Hmm...  I never thought of that before, but I think if something like
> > that
> > were well-done it would become indispensable for every RPG ever
> > published.
>
>Never thought of codifying this: it just kinda flows naturally when I am
>creating a scenario.... or (often) while running it! My notes are covered
>with scribbles that I make during play to ensure that I remember what each
>of the NPCs is like the next time the characters meet him.

Go to the section of you local bookstore dedicated to writers.  You'll find 
several books on character motivation, writing effective minor characters, 
and some very useful books on creating plots.  None of the feature 2d6 
tables, but the Game Master's art is supposed to be a creative, not random, 
one.

>Another trick I use is 'name-triggers' - in the game I'm running at the
>moment, there's an Internal Security officer who has the same name as my
>boss at work. I can give him the same style, attitudes, etc., he just
>happens to have a different job... but he approaches it in the same way.
>The name alone triggers this.

Good method!

I keep a file of NPC ideas.  Very generic, not even system-specific, but 
things like "Guard #48  Competent, Large, eating something greasy, wiping 
his fingers on uniform."  He could be the guard at the gate of the castle, 
eating roast pig, an Arasaka gunner-boy eating soy pizza, or a Sword World 
prison guard eating stew.  I also keep a couple of "meaning of names" web 
sites book marked.

I have Shopkeepers, Guards, Toughs, Bureaucrats, Cops, and a slightly more 
detailed list of Passengers.

Maybe I'll clean it up a bit and put it on the web.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.
gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Author of GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces
Geek Code: tc tm tn- t4-- tg++$ ru ge+ 3i+@ c+
            jt- au pi he+ as+ so-                           



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 10:23:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug 14 09:23:40 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <17.2cc7c4a6.2a8bc01d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020814085502.009e5880@mindspring.com>

At 10:15 AM 8/14/02 -0400, you wrote:

>  >Jewell is an industrial world pressed right up on the Zhodani
>  >Consulate.  Take it out, and the next serious threat is Efate.. beyond
>  >that, the high-tech hi-pop worlds are a good distance to the rear.  Jewell
>  >has to be reduced in order to secure a buffer zone.
>
>That's no reason to surrender the instant Jewell is lost.

take the rest of the Jewell Cluster and hold it until end of the game.  You 
will get a victory.

>And there you go again, thinking strictly in terms of Zhodane on offense,
>Imperium always and forever on passive defense.

That is how the previous five frontier wars plated out, matches the known 
strategies of both sides and Imperial policy since the end of the 
Pacification Campaigns.

Forgive me for working with the material as published.  That, and using my 
lessons from over twenty years of serious research into military history.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 10:24:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Aug 14 09:24:05 2002
Subject: [TML] mines
In-Reply-To: <20814.050005.1Q1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029342168.5736.ajackson@ping>

Leonard Erickson writes:
> 
> As someone pointed out, "impact" gets more than a bit weird at those
> velocities. The impactor acts more like a burst of high energy cosmic
> rays, which most assuredly *don't* spread that way.

Well, sure, if you have projectiles moving at upwards of 70% of c, where you
have to worry more about whether each individual atom hits another atom than
the bulk properties of the material.  OTOH, if you get hit by a 100 kilogram
missile travelling at 0.7c, it doesn't really matter much whether the impact
spreads out a bit.  I believe the discussion had more to do with energy levels
where armor is possibly relevant.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 10:24:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug 14 09:24:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <20020814182442.D22124@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <B97F02B7.697AF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <200208140119.MSJ03121@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <B97F02B7.697AF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020814085915.009eeec0@mindspring.com>

At 06:24 PM 8/14/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Tod Glenn wrote:
> > "You are taking fire RIGHT NOW!  What do you do?  TOO SLOW, they
> > have you zero'd.  You're hit."
>
>Ick.  I *hate* that, it makes things outside the game interfere with
>the in-game events.  For instance, I'm a slow decision-maker in real
>life; you would condemn all my characters to share the same trait.

I give fifteen seconds to declare something.  As long as a person has done 
something in that time span, he gets to proceed with his turn.  If not, 
it's a pass.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 10:26:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Aug 14 09:26:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <173.cf1a5bd.2a8b12da@aol.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029342234.524.ajackson@ping>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:

> Why?  Jewell is a major world, but it only has 1% of the Spinward March's 
> population, and only about 2% of its industrial capacity.

Well, it sort of depends on how many points you need for victory.  Basically,
it works out to 'if it's not a Hi-pop world, it really doesn't matter'.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 10:26:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Aug 14 09:26:42 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <17.2cc7c4a6.2a8bc01d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029342282.8505.ajackson@ping>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
 
> That's no reason to surrender the instant Jewell is lost.
> 
> And there you go again, thinking strictly in terms of Zhodane on offense, 
> Imperium always and forever on passive defense.

Well, it's apparently been true historically, for whatever reason.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 10:28:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Aug 14 09:28:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020814181100.A22124@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029342430.8394.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:
> 
> Yes, it would tend to.  Not nearly as much as it has between nations
> in our world though.  Weeks to months minimum communication time,
> non-human sentient races, and greatly varied environments are all
> diversifying factors that are not present in our world.

All of which are factors that would reduce trade.
> 
> I'm not so sure that reasoning backward from "diversity" to "little
> trade" makes for a strong argument.  If anything, diversity should
> increase the benefits of trade, and there are plenty of explanations
> for why the diversity remains.

Diversity increases the benefits of trade, but one of the benefits of trade is
the removal of diversity.
> 
> I'm particularly uncertain of the benefits of undercutting the entire
> foundation of the Imperium's reason for existence.

Because there's a mismatch between rhetoric and reality?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 10:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Aug 14 09:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
References: <Your message of "Tue, 13 Aug 2002 09:22:34 PDT." <B97E805A.69710%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020813215937.027fc008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <3D5A860B.30807@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Mark Urbin wrote:

> Hmmm...Buscemi as Andray Dunnan...

Nah, I see Gary Oldman, or even Kevin Spacey. Perhaps Matt Damon. 
(Anyone who's watched 'The Talented Mr. Ripley' knows how well he can 
play a sociopath...)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 10:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Aug 14 09:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Mail readers (was Re: Rockballs and Economy)
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814092812.0267beb0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <3D5A8860.8070307@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Mark Urbin wrote:

> Now I'm at an Outlook (curse, spit, wash hands; go ahead and mock 
> me...it won't be worse than having to use outlook) shop with a serious 
> set of IT fascists.

Like to keep themselves employed, do they.

"This is the weekly e-mail notifying you that once again, the Exchange 
Server has crashed, talking our entire business with it.

"In unrelated company news, the entire engineering staff has been sacked.

"Marketing feels that we can function well without a product, per se, so 
long as we keep gaining mind-share.  And since the weekly server crashes 
  prevent us from actually selling our product we need to protect our 
assets, anyway.

"VP's of Finance and Production both concur, and it has nothing to do 
with the vicious rumor that the head of Marketing has photographs of 
them using live goats in a sex act, despite the apparent realism of the 
pictures posted on the internal web site.

"Finally, all employees are reminded that they cannot transfer any 
company stock from their 401K accounts, so beating and wailing on HR's 
doors is useless.

"Some transient power surges can be expected as the shredders are 
started up, but once they are running we expect they'll be kept goping 
for several days."


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 11:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed Aug 14 10:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22DDB@USCHM203>

>Douglas Berry wrote:
>At 06:24 PM 8/14/02 +1000, you wrote:
>>Tod Glenn wrote:
>> > "You are taking fire RIGHT NOW!  What do you do?  TOO SLOW, they
>> > have you zero'd.  You're hit."
>>
>>Ick.  I *hate* that, it makes things outside the game interfere with
>>the in-game events.  For instance, I'm a slow decision-maker in real
>>life; you would condemn all my characters to share the same trait.

>I give fifteen seconds to declare something.  As long as a person has >done

>something in that time span, he gets to proceed with his turn.  If >>>>not,

>it's a pass.

I got this idea from some published adventure where I was a player. Might
have even been D&D. It was years ago, but I still use it on occasion:

Start counting down from ten. No explanation. No warning. Usually it's best
when characters have just entered a new area or some kind of
cave/ship/ancient structer/what-have-you.
It's unnerving the first time, and the players will be yelling "What! What!"
Eventually, but not always, they will dive to the floor, jump back out of
the room, start firing wildly, tossing grenades, and so on.

Basically, it simulates a gut reaction to a sudden threat. A door closing,
an automated pop-turret springing up, or a trap being sprung.
At zero, I tell them what has happened, and how it affects them according to
their actions.

Call it a "bad feeling" event. Not something you want to use very often, but
if done right can definitely cause some real suspense as the players, who
only know that something very bad is about to happen, try to imagine what is
going on and react accordingly.

I do enjoy the reaction I get when there are regulars in the group.

        Me: "Ten. Nine."
Old player: "Oh s***!"
New player: "What? What's going on?"
        Me: "Eight. Seven"
Old player: "Get out of the corrider!"
        Me: "Six. Five."
New player: "Why?"
        Me: "Four. Three."
Old player: "TRUST ME!JUST GET OUT OF THE F***ING CORRIDOR!"

Cheap shot? Perhaps, but it can be a nice wakeup call.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 11:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Aug 14 10:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Beanstalks in 15 years!
Message-ID: <20020814171640.316A3453A@mo120usjc.palm.net>

--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
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--- StripMime Errors ---
A message with no plaintext section was received.
The entire body of the message was removed.  Please
resend the email using plaintext formatting
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 11:56:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Loren Wiseman)
Date: Wed Aug 14 10:56:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Vilani Chess
Message-ID: <l03010d05b9804706017d@[192.168.1.67]>

As I mentioned yesterday, this is something I'm working up for inclusion as
a sidebar to GT: Nobles, as a bit of chrome. I am also thinking about a
"pure" Vilani boardgame, but that will probably be a loosely disguised lift
of some other ancient game, like Senet or Latrones or some such. If any of
the TML are into chess variants, I would be interested in your opinions and
a description of any perceived flaws with the following (short summary).

LKW

*******************

Vilani Chess: This game was evidently developed during the Rule of Man, and
is clearly descended from Solomani chess. Some Vilani claim the game dates
back thousands of years, and the Solomani game is a copy of theirs, but
there is no evidence of the game (as it currently exists) before the
Interstellar Wars, and some authorities claim it originated as recently as
the Long Night. Nevertheless, it remains popular among cultural Vilani
throughout the Imperium.

The game is played on a ten by ten square board, alternating colors. As in
conventional chess, a white square is on the righthand side of the board.
Rules are as in conventional chess, except as noted.

There are two sides, and the pieces are as follows:

Ishimkarun (Shadow Emperor): As king, but castling is not allowed (see
below) 1/side.

[insert Vilani word here] (the Aristocrat): As queen 1/side.

[insert Vilani word here] (the Merchant): As bishop 1/side.

Shugilii: As bishop 1/side.

[insert Vilani word here] (the Starship): , Only moves if it can jump over
pieces, and can move only to the other side of a row of one or more peices
(of either side) in a straight line in any direction, or can end a jump by
capturing an enemy piece. If it has no pieces to jump over, it cannot move
(but it can capture a piece immediately adjacent to it). 2/side

[insert Vilani word here] (Knight: As knight 2/side.

[insert Vilani word here] (Citadel): As rook (2 per side), but uses a
variant of castling, where the king can "enter" the citadel (represent this
by removing the rook and placing a poker chip under the king. When the king
is "in" the citadel, the citadel can't move and the king is immune to
capture until the citdel is captured (requiring a sacrifice of the
capturing piece). Conventional castling is not allowed, the king must enter
the same square as the citadel.

[insert Vilani word here] (Soldier): Pawn equivalent, but move diagonally,
capture straight ahead, no double move or en passant.

Setup as in conventional chess, with the Aristrocrat taking the place of
the queen. The merchant replaces the left-hand bishop, the Shugilii the
righthand one. Knights are next (left and right) then citadels, and the
Starships go on the extreme right and left of the first rank. Soldiers are
placed as pawns, 10 in a row in the second rank. White moves first.

***********************



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 12:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Wed Aug 14 11:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1029341843.9882.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020814184955.95531.qmail@web11804.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> wrote:
> John Scarlett writes:
> 
> > Of course MT, TNE, T4 and GT, I'm sure, cover
> disintegrators.
> 
The only mention I've seen in the LBBs is on page 14
of book 3. It says disentigrators are TL 16.

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 12:50:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug 14 11:50:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Vilani Chess
In-Reply-To: <l03010d05b9804706017d@[192.168.1.67]>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020814114531.009f47b0@mindspring.com>

At 12:57 PM 8/14/02 -0500, you wrote:
>As I mentioned yesterday, this is something I'm working up for inclusion as
>a sidebar to GT: Nobles, as a bit of chrome. I am also thinking about a
>"pure" Vilani boardgame, but that will probably be a loosely disguised lift
>of some other ancient game, like Senet or Latrones or some such. If any of
>the TML are into chess variants, I would be interested in your opinions and
>a description of any perceived flaws with the following (short summary).

The short summary: I would buy pieces for this.

I'll have to set up the board and play a few games to see how it works.

One thing.  Change "poker chip" to some Vilani word for token.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 13:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed Aug 14 12:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22DDB@USCHM203>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22DDB@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <20020814214414.429d7ae8.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 12:10:18 -0500
"Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> wrote:

>         Me: "Ten. Nine."
> Old player: "Oh s***!"
> New player: "What? What's going on?"
>         Me: "Eight. Seven"
> Old player: "Get out of the corrider!"
>         Me: "Six. Five."
> New player: "Why?"
>         Me: "Four. Three."
> Old player: "TRUST ME!JUST GET OUT OF THE F***ING CORRIDOR!"

They get out the corridor.

GM:  "Zero. The automated flamethrowers in the walls ignite, completely
toasting the air in the narrow corridor."

......

I like that idea. Even if the experienced player has no idea what is
actually happening, the character probably noticed something and didn't
have time to explain _why_ they had to leave _now_.

Great way of testing if the PCs are quick in responding to potential
threats.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 13:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Aug 14 12:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020814090047.009e4c20@mindspring.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020814090047.009e4c20@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m3eld1fcc7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
> 
> Go to the section of you local bookstore dedicated to writers.
> You'll find several books on character motivation, writing effective
> minor characters, and some very useful books on creating plots.
> None of the feature 2d6 tables, but the Game Master's art is
> supposed to be a creative, not random, one.

Some of us like simulationist games, of course.  I'm one--I'm never
happier than when I have a rulebook whose rules I can convert into a
computer program, then let run as it creates more and more intricately
detailed worlds.  But then, I'm a geek:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`When you wake up in the morning, Pooh,' said Piglet at last,
`what's the first thing you say to yourself?'
`What's for breakfast?' said Pooh. `What do you say, Piglet?'
`I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?' said Piglet.
Pooh nodded thoughtfully. `It's the same thing,' he said.
                                            --A.A. Milne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 14:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed Aug 14 13:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F165E@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Okay kiddies, you get to help design the chaos.  I'm trying to decide on the official Famille Spofulam logo font for the licensed merchandise I'm developing for sale.  Here's a page with the contestants so far:
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/famillespofulam/
The logo design I'm considering (and to an extent the printing viability) calls for a blocky, low-slung font.  The examples above are just what happen to be on my machine that I think look reasonably cool.  What are your thoughts?  I'll give folks a week to think about it or suggest cooler alternatives, then I'm off like a bull in a china shop to get this stuff released.  It's only two months behind the schedule I'd originally set for myself 8<;^)

Best,
Jesse

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 14:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Aug 14 13:17:03 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller
 CHALLENGE)
References: <200208141339.MTJ01017@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D5ABAB7.10805@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:

> I've been wondering at what tech level does the quantum 
> computer appear?  I have the nagging feeling that in real 
> life, the quantum computer (a practical one) may appear 
> before I retire.  There seems to be a huge paradigm shift 
> that will take place once such a computer can be made - a 
> larger change than the transition from analog to digital.

Perhaps in manufacturing, but not, I think in terms of systems design, 
as all quantum devices I've seen are still binary devices.

It will be as much a paradigm switch as going from discrete components 
to IC's, more a matter of degree than a switch among fundamental mechanisms.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 14:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dave Strebe)
Date: Wed Aug 14 13:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F165E@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <02Aug14.134400pdt.119082@gw.city.vancouver.bc.ca>

Vdub

----- Original Message -----
From: "DeGraff, Jesse" <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 1:08 PM
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D


> Okay kiddies, you get to help design the chaos.  I'm trying to decide on
the official Famille Spofulam logo font for the licensed merchandise I'm
developing for sale.  Here's a page with the contestants so far:
> http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/famillespofulam/
> The logo design I'm considering (and to an extent the printing viability)
calls for a blocky, low-slung font.  The examples above are just what happen
to be on my machine that I think look reasonably cool.  What are your
thoughts?  I'll give folks a week to think about it or suggest cooler
alternatives, then I'm off like a bull in a china shop to get this stuff
released.  It's only two months behind the schedule I'd originally set for
myself 8<;^)
>
> Best,
> Jesse
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 14:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Aug 14 13:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
References: <m3bs87r262.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814093359.01680b70@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <3D5ABF63.7030608@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> At 12:26 AM 8/14/2002 -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
>> In mail you write:
>> > So far, the official numbers seem to indicate that there's not an
>> > awful lot of trade in relative terms.  This is not awfully surprising:
>> > it's expensive to put stuff up into orbit and expensive to ship it.
>> Huh? What makes you think it's expensive to get stuff into orbit?
>> I seem to recall someone running the numbers a while back and having it
>> come out cheaper than shipping by rail.
> 
> 
> Isn't the access to launch facilities a bit more limited than rail access?

Not when an air-raft can reach orbit from *anywhere*. Any planet with a 
decent poulation is going to have a number of spaceports to support 
orbital and system craft. Starports have additional facilities to handle 
starships (primarily construction and repair therof) This  Large 
international airport vs dinky metropolitan branch. There's a LOT more 
of the latter.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 14:51:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Aug 14 13:51:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <F53vuEMiaxIZpYnIW9i000000c8@hotmail.com>

From: "DeGraff, Jesse" <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com>

     "Okay kiddies, you get to help design the chaos.  I'm trying to decide 
on the official Famille Spofulam logo font for the licensed merchandise I'm 
developing for sale.  Here's a page with the contestants so far: ..."


Mr. DeGraff,

     I'll vote for vdub.  It has the look of the output of a 57th century 
PDA "Graffiti" style text input utility.
     Printing has all but replaced cursive writing in my lifetime.  As PDAs 
become more universal, the stylus strokes used to enter text via a 
"Graffiti" utility could replace or supercede the way we currently form 
standard alphabetic symbols.  Thus, the vdub/57th century "F" has become an 
upsidedown "L" with a dot instead of an upsidedown "L" with an additional 
slash, an "A" becomes an upsidedown "V" with a dot, instead of another 
slash, and so forth.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 14:52:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Wed Aug 14 13:52:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Vilani Chess
In-Reply-To: <20020814190010.7519.86867.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020814190010.7519.86867.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <o0fllusbkda1cbm749tu97qoc5qvmdc4r0@4ax.com>

On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 12:00:10 -0700, Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com> (Yes, _that_
Loren Wiseman!) wrote:

>As I mentioned yesterday, this is something I'm working up for inclusion as
>a sidebar to GT: Nobles, as a bit of chrome. I am also thinking about a
>"pure" Vilani boardgame, but that will probably be a loosely disguised lift
>of some other ancient game, like Senet or Latrones or some such. If any of
>the TML are into chess variants, I would be interested in your opinions and
>a description of any perceived flaws with the following (short summary).

>*******************

>Vilani Chess: This game was evidently developed during the Rule of Man, and
>is clearly descended from Solomani chess. Some Vilani claim the game dates
>back thousands of years, and the Solomani game is a copy of theirs, but
>there is no evidence of the game (as it currently exists) before the
>Interstellar Wars, and some authorities claim it originated as recently as
>the Long Night. Nevertheless, it remains popular among cultural Vilani
>throughout the Imperium.

Given the description, it would seem to be a development of 'several
versions of chess and chess-like games known to the Solomani'

>The game is played on a ten by ten square board, alternating colors. As in
>conventional chess, a white square is on the righthand side of the board.
>Rules are as in conventional chess, except as noted.

>There are two sides, and the pieces are as follows:

>Ishimkarun (Shadow Emperor): As king, but castling is not allowed (see
>below) 1/side.

>[insert Vilani word here] (the Aristocrat): As queen 1/side.

>[insert Vilani word here] (the Merchant): As bishop 1/side.

>Shugilii: As bishop 1/side.

>[insert Vilani word here] (the Starship): , Only moves if it can jump over
>pieces, and can move only to the other side of a row of one or more peices
>(of either side) in a straight line in any direction, or can end a jump by
>capturing an enemy piece. If it has no pieces to jump over, it cannot move
>(but it can capture a piece immediately adjacent to it). 2/side

Too powerful.  I would forget the ability to capture the adjacent piece,
and/or limit the number of pieces jumped to exactly one.  If both changes
are made, you have the _cannon_ of Chinese chess (xiangqi).  I'd be
inclined to just eliminate the capture of adjacent piece; the increased
power of the jump may be compensated for by the larger board.  If you
prefer, another alternative would be to eliminate the adjacency capture,
and allow _move_ but _not_ capture like a rook, requiring jump for capture.
This would be like the _cannon_ in _Korean_ chess.

>[insert Vilani word here] (Knight: As knight 2/side.

>[insert Vilani word here] (Citadel): As rook (2 per side), but uses a
>variant of castling, where the king can "enter" the citadel (represent this
>by removing the rook and placing a poker chip under the king. When the king
>is "in" the citadel, the citadel can't move and the king is immune to
>capture until the citdel is captured (requiring a sacrifice of the
>capturing piece). Conventional castling is not allowed, the king must enter
>the same square as the citadel.

Interesting.  I'll have to see how well this works.  Incidentally, while
your rule for simulating this with a standard chess set is reasonable,
"sets professionally-made to the Modified Staunton pattern (a favorite
among Solomani and Solomani-affecting Vilani) will make the Citadel wider
and shorter than a normal Rook, so that the King may be placed within it".
I think you also need to define the capture of an occupied citadel a little
better.

>[insert Vilani word here] (Soldier): Pawn equivalent, but move diagonally,
>capture straight ahead, no double move or en passant.

Also known as the 'Berolina pawn'.

>Setup as in conventional chess, with the Aristrocrat taking the place of
>the queen. The merchant replaces the left-hand bishop, the Shugilii the
>righthand one. Knights are next (left and right) then citadels, and the
>Starships go on the extreme right and left of the first rank. Soldiers are
>placed as pawns, 10 in a row in the second rank. White moves first.

I would move the initial position of the pawns to the third rank instead of
the second; this seems to be _very_ common in large-board variants, both
historic and fantastic.

+ + + + +

There is a program for 32-bit Windows (_not_ Win31 with Win32 extensions)
called Zillions of Games, which is a UI + game engine that can be
programmed - by you, fairly easily - to play _any_ game that you can define
the rules for.  The only rules here that I can see might cause problems
would be the pseudocastling and the Starship - but the cannon for both
Chinese and Korean chess _has_ been defined, and I expect that it would not
be difficult to handle the Starship as a result.  More info plus a free
demo (not programmable, but you can look at code for the supplied games) at
http://www.zillions-of-games.com.  There are also freely-downloadable games
playable if you have the full version of ZoG (or examinable if you don't).
If you can define the game adequately for ZoG, you can play it - ZoG _will_
be a strong player, though probably not professional-grade - and see just
how well it will work in practice.  You'll have to use either extant
graphics from other games (a wide selection) or create your own (Windows
BMP format).  ZoG allows play against the computer, or, if two people both
have ZoG, net play.  It also allows play against another person using the
'hot seat' method (i.e., ZoG is only a monitor/referee; take turns by
getting up and letting the other player get to the keyboard).

There is also more information about chess and chess variants at
http://www.chessvariants.com, including ZoG definitions for many (but not
all) games on the site.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 14:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed Aug 14 13:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F165E@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F165E@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <20020814222024.322cc3e8.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 13:08:34 -0700
"DeGraff, Jesse" <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> wrote:

> http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/famillespofulam/

I like the following fonts:

vdub - Because it looks like Bilandin, keeping in style with some other
Traveller stuff (cover illustrations et al.)

borg9 - Because it looks like something out of a cheesy 80ies movie,
something like a military department / special forces unit.

beware - Because Jesse says so  ;-)   And it looks corporate in about
the same way that borg9 looks military to me. Might be because several
small tech companies around here have similiar rounded fonts in their
logos.

In general, I don't think the font should be too ordinary, and having a
somewhat cheesy SciFi feeling doesn't hurt  :-)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 15:04:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Wed Aug 14 14:04:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <3D5AC4AD.8EAC61C5@mail.cswnet.com>

From: "DeGraff, Jesse" <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com>

     "Okay kiddies, you get to help design the chaos.  I'm trying to
decide on the official Famille Spofulam logo font for the licensed
merchandise I'm developing for sale.  Here's a page with the contestants
so far: ..."

Of the lot shown, I'd go with Beware.

Of the lots not shown, from Lotus I got the Creepy Font
[looks like Rocky Horror Picture Show]
and the Kidprint Font [appropriate for Ditzie, yes].

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 15:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Loren Wiseman)
Date: Wed Aug 14 14:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] I feel so honored . . .   :  )
Message-ID: <l03010d09b98076c239f1@[192.168.1.67]>

OK, here's kind of a thrill I ran across while looking for something else


From Amazon-dot-com:
"Customers who bought titles by Loren Wiseman also bought titles by these
authors:
	John M. Ford
	Neil Frier
	Russell Goodwin
	Sean Punch
	Martin J. Dougherty"

Such august company I'm in . . .

LKW



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 15:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed Aug 14 14:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <m3eld1fcc7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020814090047.009e4c20@mindspring.com>
 <m3eld1fcc7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020814220831.38e0f56f.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 13:51:36 -0600
ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>) wrote:

> Some of us like simulationist games, of course.  I'm one--I'm never
> happier than when I have a rulebook whose rules I can convert into a
> computer program, then let run as it creates more and more intricately
> detailed worlds.  But then, I'm a geek:-)

Blessed be the geek, for he shall internet the world.

I prefer to mix both styles in my games (in different proportions for
different games). In horror settings, I prefer to use the rules as loose
guidelines only. In SciFi games on the other hand, I enjoy fooling
around with the systems.

In any case, this rarely applies to the actual playing in my game. The
mad scientist has his doomsday device, and there is much talk and/or
action to try stop him from using it.

The difference is that in a horror game, I make up a fiendish device
using my own imagination only. In a SciFi game, I would design it using
FF&S2.   :-)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 16:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Glatz)
Date: Wed Aug 14 15:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Gibson's vision of jacking in coming true?
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10208141457090.3551-100000@sink>

An interesting article on the latest in vision restoration for the blind -
hardwiring a video signal directly into the visual cortex.


http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/10.09/vision.html


douglas



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 16:05:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Wed Aug 14 15:05:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F165E@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <3D5AD495.7060403@attbi.com>

Dude


Supersoulfighter




-- 
Evyn

We're poor little lambs who've lost our way,
Baa! Baa! Baa!
We're little black sheep who have gone astray,
Baa - aa - aa!
Gentlemen rankers out on the spree,
Damned from here to Eternity,
God ha' mercy on such as we,
Baa! Yah! Baa!
R. Kipling, Gentlemen Rankers


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 16:08:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug 14 15:08:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814093359.01680b70@192.168.0.1>
References: <m3bs87r262.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> <20814.002653.3g0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814093359.01680b70@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020815080747.A23732@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> Isn't the access to launch facilities a bit more limited than rail
> access?

Not when there are mass-market contragrav vehicles.  "Launch
facilities" can be anywhere with a view of the sky.

You only need discrete launch facilities when the only way to get into
space is through dangerous, massive, and/or exceedingly costly
equipment.  That ceases to be true as soon as contragrav is invented.

In fact, if you have contragrav you can even get into orbit without
thrusters.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 16:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug 14 15:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <200208141347.MTJ01845@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208141347.MTJ01845@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020815081543.B23732@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> If we don't measure the photon, we get an interference 
> pattern.

Actually, if we don't measure the photon we get nothing at all :)


> If we measure the photon *after* it goes through the slits, 
> it takes either one slit or the other.

I presume you mean if you measure it *immediately* after.


>  In any case, the photon has been interfered with prior to going
> through the slits - in one case to produce an interference pattern,
> and in the other case to go one way or the other.

No.  It interferes with itself in the former case, after going through
both slits.

It has its wavefunction dispersed by your measuring device in the
latter, giving a different pattern.  Typically just a 1-slit pattern.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 16:18:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sparky)
Date: Wed Aug 14 15:18:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
References: <20814.043437.2f4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <006601c243e0$71b02620$67e84242@upstairs>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
> Simultaneous is a meaningless concept in physics if you are talking
> about events occuring at different locations.

I was thinking of a (if I can use a term improperly) local distance,
like in the two-slit photon experiment with a detector mounted on each
each slit.

> As the wave functions interacting you get spreading "waves" of
> probability. That is, the probability that it was over here interacts
> with the probability that some other particle was somewhere else,
> leading to further probability distributions for the current and
future
> positions of both particles.
> Multiply that by the huge numbers of particles that are involved in
> most things and it gets *really* ugly.

That's very interesting. I didn't realize that. Makes things like
trek-style matter-transport and time travel a real mess, doesn't it?

> Once you "make an observation", you've pinned the particle down as to
> it either is or is not where you "looked". With the result that any
> probabilty waves for other particles that are inconsistent with that
> result vanish. Ones that are consistent with it remain.
> This is properly discussed with math. And *I* am not up to it.
..and...
> It's not "multiple places". It's that it's only "partially" anywhere
> (the probability functions) until the wave "collapses".

I (currently) wouldn't really be able to follow the math. I'll take your
word for the results.

Just vanish? Is it default that no particles can exist in a set
form/place until  the instant they  interact with another particle? How
is there _any_ casuality at all?!? And doesn't this mean that future
events (interaction results) force interaction consequences to affect
the past? Seems like there would be waves of probablility effect going
both forward and backwards at the same time.

Thanks for the explanations. Gives me some tools to twist up how
Jumpspace might look/work/etc.

Sparky






From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 16:29:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sparky)
Date: Wed Aug 14 15:29:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
References: <200208141347.MTJ01845@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <20020815081543.B23732@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <007801c243e1$ee731fe0$67e84242@upstairs>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Timothy Little" <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
> >  In any case, the photon has been interfered with prior to going
> > through the slits - in one case to produce an interference pattern,
> > and in the other case to go one way or the other.
>
> No.  It interferes with itself in the former case, after going through
> both slits.
> It has its wavefunction dispersed by your measuring device in the
> latter, giving a different pattern.  Typically just a 1-slit pattern.

I'm just barging in all over the place. If a particle interefers with
itself, doesn't that mean (in some sense) that it is in two places at
once? (Kind of like bumping into itself.)

Although...I guess a particle could be in a large number of places so
'quickly' that it is repelled/attracted by it's own electromagnetic
charge.

(sigh) More to research when I get the time...

Sparky


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 16:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Aug 14 15:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Vilani Chess
In-Reply-To: <o0fllusbkda1cbm749tu97qoc5qvmdc4r0@4ax.com>
References: <20020814190010.7519.86867.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <o0fllusbkda1cbm749tu97qoc5qvmdc4r0@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <m3ofc5dqdt.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com> writes:
> 
> There is a program for 32-bit Windows (_not_ Win31 with Win32
> extensions) called Zillions of Games, which is a UI + game engine
> that can be programmed--by you, fairly easily--to play _any_ game
> that you can define the rules for.

[snip]

> If you can define the game adequately for ZoG, you can play it--ZoG
> _will_ be a strong player, though probably not
> professional-grade--and see just how well it will work in practice.

Anyone know of free software which works similarly?  I prefer to avoid
proprietary software whenever possible.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Firm footwork is the fount from which springs all offence and
defence.                             --Giacomo diGrasse, 1570

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 16:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug 14 15:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <m3eld1fcc7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020814090047.009e4c20@mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020814090047.009e4c20@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020814152928.009dd310@mindspring.com>

At 01:51 PM 8/14/02 -0600, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
> >
> > Go to the section of you local bookstore dedicated to writers.
> > You'll find several books on character motivation, writing effective
> > minor characters, and some very useful books on creating plots.
> > None of the feature 2d6 tables, but the Game Master's art is
> > supposed to be a creative, not random, one.
>
>Some of us like simulationist games, of course.  I'm one--I'm never
>happier than when I have a rulebook whose rules I can convert into a
>computer program, then let run as it creates more and more intricately
>detailed worlds.  But then, I'm a geek:-)

Oh, don't get me wrong - Iove rules.  They give me something to break.  I 
have Paul Jaquays old Central Casting books, which I use for random shops 
and NPCs, but for spear-carriers I just want the basics.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 16:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Aug 14 15:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F165E@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020814173901.00ac3660@minn.net>

At 01:08 PM 8/14/2002 -0700, Jesse
wrote:
>Okay kiddies, you get to help design the chaos.  I'm trying to decide on
the official Famille Spofulam logo font for the licensed merchandise I'm
developing for sale.  Here's a page with the contestants so far:
>http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/famillespofulam/
>The logo design I'm considering (and to an extent the printing viability)
calls for a blocky, low-slung font.  The examples above are just what
happen to be on my machine that I think look reasonably cool.  What are
your thoughts?  I'll give folks a week to think about it or suggest cooler
alternatives, then I'm off like a bull in a china shop to get this stuff
released.  It's only two months behind the schedule I'd originally set for
myself 8<;^)

Beware, followed by Goodtimes, followed by Vdub.

What font is Ditzie's Favorite?


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 16:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Wed Aug 14 15:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] I feel so honored . . .   :  )
In-Reply-To: <l03010d09b98076c239f1@[192.168.1.67]>
Message-ID: <001801c24482$98fadd90$1001a8c0@sauron>

Loren Wiseman wrote :
> "Customers who bought titles by Loren Wiseman also bought
> titles by these
> authors:
> 	John M. Ford
> 	Neil Frier
> 	Russell Goodwin
> 	Sean Punch
> 	Martin J. Dougherty"
>
> Such august company I'm in . . .

Umm, sorry, but can anyone tell me who Neil Frier, Russell Goodwin, and
Sean Punch are ?

I know Loren, Martin and John, but not the other three.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 16:41:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Wed Aug 14 15:41:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F165E@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <001701c24482$88c4a0a0$1001a8c0@sauron>

DeGraff, Jesse wrote :
 
> Okay kiddies, you get to help design the chaos.  I'm trying 
> to decide on the official Famille Spofulam logo font for the 
> licensed merchandise I'm developing for sale.  Here's a page 
> with the contestants so far:
> http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/famillespofulam/

Like someone else did, I like vdub as well , though beware 
is good too, and more in keeping with your "low slung" 
requirement. 

Frankie




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 16:42:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug 14 15:42:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1029342430.8394.ajackson@ping>
References: <20020814181100.A22124@freeman.little-possums.net> <ML-2.3.1029342430.8394.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020815084118.A23838@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:

[Tim wrote:]
> > Weeks to months minimum communication time, non-human sentient
> > races, and greatly varied environments are all diversifying
> > factors that are not present in our world.

> All of which are factors that would reduce trade.

The first I can agree with, but you'll have to be a lot more
convincing on the other two.  In particular, I think the second one is
pretty much neutral with respect to trade, and the last will almost
always *increase* trade.

None of them, or combination of them, account for two orders of
magnitude reduction in trade.


Furthermore, the main point I was making was that the Imperium *can*
be diverse without being near tradeless.  Do you agree or not?


> Diversity increases the benefits of trade, but one of the benefits
> of trade is the removal of diversity.

Another of the benefits of trade is the ability to support diversity
that could not exist otherwise.


> > I'm particularly uncertain of the benefits of undercutting the
> > entire foundation of the Imperium's reason for existence.
> 
> Because there's a mismatch between rhetoric and reality?

It has been stated many places in many published works, in the
*authorial* voice that the Imperium exists to promote and protect
trade between worlds.  It's not just in-game rhetoric.

And reality?  This is a *game-world* we're talking about.  In case
you're wondering, one way to tell is that it has FTL jump drives.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 16:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed Aug 14 15:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F1660@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

You think I'm gonna' ask her?  Are you nuts?!?  Last time I talked to her I was in the hospital for 3 months.  And that was wearing armor!  ;)

Jesse


> Beware, followed by Goodtimes, followed by Vdub.
> 
> What font is Ditzie's Favorite?
> 
> 
> Les
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 16:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Wed Aug 14 15:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <memo.868794@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F165E@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.-
com>
> Okay kiddies, you get to help design the chaos.  I'm trying to decide 
> on the official Famille Spofulam logo font for the licensed merchandise 
> I'm developing for sale.  

In order of preference: -

1. Beware.

2. Newbrilliant.

3. Sambaisdead.

They are all nice fonts, though. I think it's time I went font-hunting, 
I'm getting bored with the ones I have here :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.

PS. Really upset my Blue Planet players - they met a female Marine wearing 
an "I [heart] HE" t-shirt. They've been stepping nervously ever since :-)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 16:49:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Wed Aug 14 15:49:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
In-Reply-To: <20020814224103.11821.52220.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020814224103.11821.52220.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <k8nllusbgv75j9k8iftjmfq9104fns5j3q@4ax.com>

On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 15:41:03 -0700, "DeGraff, Jesse"
<Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> wrote:

>Okay kiddies, you get to help design the chaos.  I'm trying to decide on
>the official Famille Spofulam logo font for the licensed merchandise I'm
>developing for sale.  Here's a page with the contestants so far:

>http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/famillespofulam/

>The logo design I'm considering (and to an extent the printing viability)
>calls for a blocky, low-slung font.  The examples above are just what
>happen to be on my machine that I think look reasonably cool.  What are
>your thoughts?  I'll give folks a week to think about it or suggest cooler
>alternatives, then I'm off like a bull in a china shop to get this stuff
>released.  It's only two months behind the schedule I'd originally set for
>myself 8<;^)

Jesse:  Get busy with your font creator and create a Bilanidin that matches
the style of each, and post the Bilanidin rendering of 'Famille Spofulam'
(or the appropriate Vilani translation) in each along with it.  That way,
you can eliminate 'looks' that 'don't work' in the Vilani characters.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 16:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed Aug 14 15:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F1661@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Mexal wrote:
> PS. Really upset my Blue Planet players - they met a female 
> Marine wearing 
> an "I [heart] HE" t-shirt. They've been stepping nervously 
> ever since :-)
 

ROFL!!!!  Outstanding :)
Jesse

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 16:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed Aug 14 15:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F1662@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Rrrriiiiiiight.  1.I don't have a font editor  2.I've never edited a font before  3.I don't really have TIME to learn how to edit fonts right now ;)  4.I'd kinda' like the stuff to be readable by mundanes  5.BUT, maybe a few selected products in pure Vilani would be cool too!! ;D

Best,
Jesse


 
> Jesse:  Get busy with your font creator and create a 
> Bilanidin that matches
> the style of each, and post the Bilanidin rendering of 
> 'Famille Spofulam'
> (or the appropriate Vilani translation) in each along with 
> it.  That way,
> you can eliminate 'looks' that 'don't work' in the Vilani characters.
> 
> --
> Jeff Zeitlin
> jzeitlin@cyburban.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 16:57:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (George A. Boyett)
Date: Wed Aug 14 15:57:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F165E@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <000001c243e6$01cf3110$d69b8141@ORAC>

I like both Beware and Vdub.  

I am emailing you three samples.  The filenames are the fonts I used.





From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 16:57:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Wed Aug 14 15:57:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Vilani Chess
In-Reply-To: <20020814224103.11821.52220.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020814224103.11821.52220.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <rlnllucj3kejh56r6tal20o3rbr615c4r0@4ax.com>

On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 15:41:03 -0700, ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl
<ruhl@4dv.net>) wrote:

>Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com> writes:
 
>> There is a program for 32-bit Windows (_not_ Win31 with Win32
>> extensions) called Zillions of Games, which is a UI + game engine
>> that can be programmed--by you, fairly easily--to play _any_ game
>> that you can define the rules for.

>[snip]

>> If you can define the game adequately for ZoG, you can play it--ZoG
>> _will_ be a strong player, though probably not
>> professional-grade--and see just how well it will work in practice.

>Anyone know of free software which works similarly?  I prefer to avoid
>proprietary software whenever possible.

I have never seen any other program which does anything remotely similar.

Incidentally, the distinction you're inquiring about isn't 'free' vs.
'proprietary', it's either 'free' vs. 'retail' or 'open-source' vs.
'proprietary', and I suspect that you're really interested in _both_.

Why do you prefer to avoid 'proprietary' software whenever possible?

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 17:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed Aug 14 16:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F1664@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

I'll be lookin' for 'em :)
Thanks!
Jesse

> -----Original Message-----
> From: George A. Boyett [mailto:gboyett@msn.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 3:58 PM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: RE: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
> 
> 
> I like both Beware and Vdub.  
> 
> I am emailing you three samples.  The filenames are the fonts I used.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 17:04:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug 14 16:04:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F165E@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020814155132.009e9960@mindspring.com>

At 01:08 PM 8/14/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Okay kiddies, you get to help design the chaos.  I'm trying to decide on 
>the official Famille Spofulam logo font for the licensed merchandise I'm 
>developing for sale.  Here's a page with the contestants so far:
>http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/famillespofulam/
>The logo design I'm considering (and to an extent the printing viability) 
>calls for a blocky, low-slung font.  The examples above are just what 
>happen to be on my machine that I think look reasonably cool.  What are 
>your thoughts?  I'll give folks a week to think about it or suggest cooler 
>alternatives, then I'm off like a bull in a china shop to get this stuff 
>released.  It's only two months behind the schedule I'd originally set for 
>myself 8<;^)


Beware


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 17:05:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Aug 14 16:05:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F165E@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEPCIMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

1)  Goodtimes

2)  Beware

3)  vdub

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 17:10:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Aug 14 16:10:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <20020815084118.A23838@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029366595.4851.ajackson@ping>

Timothy Little writes:

> Furthermore, the main point I was making was that the Imperium *can*
> be diverse without being near tradeless.  Do you agree or not?

It can be diverse.  It can't be as diverse as the OTU, particularly in terms of
TL; essentially the only way the TL distribution in the OTU makes any sense is
if trade is really minimal.

> Another of the benefits of trade is the ability to support diversity
> that could not exist otherwise.

Not really.  There's a reason that, for example, there are a lot more languages
in primitive areas in Africa (where villages 20 miles apart might never contact
one another) than in the rest of the planet.

> It has been stated many places in many published works, in the
> *authorial* voice that the Imperium exists to promote and protect
> trade between worlds.  It's not just in-game rhetoric.

Actually, that can be true even if there isn't much trade.  It just implies
that the Imperium probably isn't very powerful.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 17:11:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Aug 14 16:11:07 2002
Subject: [TML] I feel so honored . . .   :  )
In-Reply-To: <001801c24482$98fadd90$1001a8c0@sauron>
References: <l03010d09b98076c239f1@[192.168.1.67]>
Message-ID: <3D5B8C30.4316.6BD981@localhost>

On 15 Aug 2002 at 10:38, Frankie wrote:

> Loren Wiseman wrote :
> > "Customers who bought titles by Loren Wiseman also bought
> > titles by these
> > authors:
> > 	John M. Ford
> > 	Neil Frier
> > 	Russell Goodwin
> > 	Sean Punch
> > 	Martin J. Dougherty"
> >
> > Such august company I'm in . . .
> 
> Umm, sorry, but can anyone tell me who Neil Frier, Russell Goodwin, and
> Sean Punch are ?

Sean Punch is the GURPS line editor, rules guru and author of GURPS 
books.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 17:11:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed Aug 14 16:11:33 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <007801c243e1$ee731fe0$67e84242@upstairs>
References: <200208141347.MTJ01845@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <20020815081543.B23732@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <007801c243e1$ee731fe0$67e84242@upstairs>
Message-ID: <20020815011002.57f51b19.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 18:28:02 -0400
Sparky <sparky13@nycap.rr.com> wrote:

> I'm just barging in all over the place. If a particle interefers with
> itself, doesn't that mean (in some sense) that it is in two places at
> once? (Kind of like bumping into itself.)

That a photon creates an interference pattern with itself means simply
this: That viewing a photon as a particle is not correct.

Photons can in some situations (excitation/de-excitation of atoms for
example) be viewed as particles, in other situations (interference
patterns etc) they can be viewed as waves. To say that they are simply
particles (or simply waves) is not completely true.

Unless, off course, you consider the fact that this dual nature is true
for all particles...  ;-)

However once they get too big, the wave nature becomes irrelevant. For
example, you need an impossibly narrow slit to create an interference
pattern, many times narrower than the particle could even fit through.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 17:13:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Aug 14 16:13:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F1662@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMEPCIMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>


Rrrriiiiiiight.  1.I don't have a font editor  2.I've never edited a font
before  3.I don't really have TIME to learn how to edit fonts right now ;)
4.I'd kinda' like the stuff to be readable by mundanes  5.BUT, maybe a few
selected products in pure Vilani would be cool too!! ;D

Best,
Jesse

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

what is needed is a sign language spouting adult version of Ditzie
with Vilani subtitles

Why?


:
:
:
:
spoiler space
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:

Because you'd have a Wenched Hiver in Vilani


jml
^_^;;;;


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 17:13:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Wed Aug 14 16:13:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <20020814190010.7519.86867.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentra
 l.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020814155827.00b54720@mailhost.efn.org>

My thoughts on this thread:

Fifteen seconds isn't so bad, though ten is pushing it a bit.

I don't think that it's fair to start counting down without giving *some* 
hint as to what the characters should be reacting to.  Presumably they saw 
or heard something, and that information should be given to the players; if 
they can't decide how to react to it, then feel free to smack them.  What 
if the clue is a creak and the floor starting to give way (trapdoor 
opening), but with no data on what's happening, the player declares that 
he's throwing himself to the ground?

There's also the problem that physical reflexes are a lot quicker than 
formulating and completely stating a verbal response.  I can fire a gun 
from the hip or throw myself out of the way of something a lot faster than 
I can say that I'm doing so.  Nor am I unable to complete that action 
because the GM didn't hear me over the three other people also shouting 
something.



--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 17:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 14 16:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Vilani Chess
Message-ID: <105.1a46b452.2a8c3ed3@aol.com>

>One thing.  Change "poker chip" to some Vilani word for token

I'm assuming the actual pieces will have the citadel/rook constructed so the 
Shadow-Emperor/king fits inside it or on top somehow. The poker chip thing 
was just a temporary expedient.

Killing rumors before they start: Nobody at SJ Games knows of this besides me 
(unless they read the TML), so there are NO plans to actually produce this 
game. 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 17:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Wed Aug 14 16:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F1665@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> 
> what is needed is a sign language spouting adult version of Ditzie
> with Vilani subtitles
> 
> Why?
> 
> 
> :
> :
> :
> :
> spoiler space
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
> 
> Because you'd have a Wenched Hiver in Vilani
> 
> 
> jml
> ^_^;;;;



"Nuke the site from orbit.  It's the only way to be sure."
;)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 17:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Wed Aug 14 16:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <memo.869387@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F1661@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.-
com>
> Mexal wrote:
> > PS. Really upset my Blue Planet players - they met a female 
> > Marine wearing 
> > an "I [heart] HE" t-shirt. They've been stepping nervously 
> > ever since :-)
>  
> 
> ROFL!!!!  Outstanding :)
> Jesse

Thank you.

I do hope your mechandising will include said t-shirt - I want one :-)

Another example - as recounted in a different thread - of 'name-trigger' 
techniques for generating NPC characteristics.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 17:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shadowcat)
Date: Wed Aug 14 16:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020814155132.009e9960@mindspring.com>
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F165E@ussvlexc10.corp.n etapp.com>
Message-ID: <3D5A9CD5.23513.320F4C@localhost>

I vote for Borg 9


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 17:35:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Angus McDonald)
Date: Wed Aug 14 16:35:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <OFE941E69D.D63A7C6A-ONCA256C15.007F14E1@dnsalias.com>

Jesse,

Love your work. My votes go to:

beware
vdub
freya

Borg9 is just plain cheesy, and I'd avoid any all caps font, 
supersoulfighter needs a soundtrack, axaxax looks wrong, and the rest are 
boring.

Cheers,
---  from  ---
Angus McDonald
www.falkayn.com

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 17:37:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Wed Aug 14 16:37:05 2002
Subject: [TML] P B E Traveller campaign
In-Reply-To: <memo.822670@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHIEPFIMAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

the map

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 17:44:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 14 16:44:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traveler Minatures
Message-ID: <OFB738EBCA.774DAD36-ONCA256C15.00813463-CA256C15.00819185@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Steve wrote:
>  The copyright is GW's, although the Trav-specific stuff likely
>couldn't be re-released w/o a license from FarFuture? IAC, no one
>at GW cares to ever re-release them; the masters are probably in
>storage somewhere - heck, maybe Foundry has `em through Ansell?

Ansell? But Marc's licence probably won't cover condoms emblazoned with 
Imperial starbursts, even for marketing purposes - oh, I've obviously 
misunderstood this thread...

[Thursday. It must be Thursday.]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 18:01:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 14 17:01:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <7c.2c7a4f5c.2a8c4912@aol.com>

 >>And there you go again, thinking strictly in terms of Zhodane on offense,
 >>Imperium always and forever on passive defense.
 >
 >That is how the previous five frontier wars plated out, matches the known 
 >strategies of both sides and Imperial policy since the end of the 
 >Pacification Campaigns.
 >
 >Forgive me for working with the material as published.

You are forgiven (as if you need to ask me).  But I would never continue with 
a strategy, published or not, that has produced nothing but bare draws and 
significant losses in five wars.  I certainly wouldn't stand around passively 
waiting for the next attack -- that guarantees a loss.

 >That, and using my lessons from over twenty years of serious research
 >into military history.

So ... how are victories obtained?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 18:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Gilson)
Date: Wed Aug 14 17:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F165E@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020814190119.00b62ee0@mail.mchsi.com>

At 01:08 PM 8/14/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>Okay kiddies, you get to help design the chaos.  I'm trying to decide on 
>the official Famille Spofulam logo font for the licensed merchandise I'm 
>developing for sale.  Here's a page with the contestants so far:
>http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/famillespofulam/
>The logo design I'm considering (and to an extent the printing viability) 
>calls for a blocky, low-slung font.  The examples above are just what 
>happen to be on my machine that I think look reasonably cool.  What are 
>your thoughts?  I'll give folks a week to think about it or suggest cooler 
>alternatives, then I'm off like a bull in a china shop to get this stuff 
>released.  It's only two months behind the schedule I'd originally set for 
>myself 8<;^)
>
>Best,
>Jesse

I like the Beware one.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 18:04:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Wed Aug 14 17:04:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
Message-ID: <memo.870081@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020814155827.00b54720@mailhost.efn.org>

> I don't think that it's fair to start counting down without giving 
> *some* hint as to what the characters should be reacting to.  

What if the 'clue' is a mechanical voice counting down?

Indeed, physical reactions can proceed faster than you can verbalise, 
indeed faster than you consciously think. 

I have reacted to situations where I *thought* I'd had plenty of time to 
work out an appropriate response, yet bystanders claimed that the reaction 
had been virtually instantaneous. Other times, I have found myself at the 
end-point of the reaction without any idea of how I got there (over a wall 
just ahead of an explosion, answering an emergency call out fully clothed 
when last thing I knew I was in bed asleep or treating someone who was 
fitting a couple of rows away in an aircraft as a few examples of the 
latter).

Still, this is a game, and we need to look at ways of simulating reality. 
In a live action role-play you can get a bit closer... one of the above 
examples was from an LARP not real life... but in normal table-top gaming 
all you can go on is verbal response to a threat that is also spoken (the 
GM's description).

It's possibly not something to do too often, but can be effective. I once 
had a party of players crawling through some underground passages, which 
were quite unstable and I intended for there to be a rockfall. As I 
described the scene I wandered around the table, and as I reached the 
rockfall bit, I suddenly put my hands on the shoulders of one of the 
players. Poor dear nearly jumped out of his skin :-)

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 18:10:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 14 17:10:04 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <d2.1c818998.2a8c4ae4@aol.com>

 >> That's no reason to surrender the instant Jewell is lost.
 >> 
 >> And there you go again, thinking strictly in terms of Zhodane on offense, 
 >> Imperium always and forever on passive defense.
 >
 >Well, it's apparently been true historically, for whatever reason.

Hm.  Sounds like an opportunity for a player character admiral to turn things 
around.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 18:10:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Aug 14 17:10:37 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <7c.2c7a4f5c.2a8c4912@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D5B9A01.30711.A1D203@localhost>

On 14 Aug 2002 at 20:00, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> You are forgiven (as if you need to ask me).  But I would never
> continue with a strategy, published or not, that has produced
> nothing but bare draws and significant losses in five wars.  I
> certainly wouldn't stand around passively waiting for the next
> attack -- that guarantees a loss. 

How odd. The western allies were the attacked in WWI and they won. 

>  >That, and using my lessons from over twenty years of serious research
>  >into military history.
> 
> So ... how are victories obtained?

By not losing. :)

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 18:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Aug 14 17:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <d2.1c818998.2a8c4ae4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D5B9B16.26511.A60AFB@localhost>

On 14 Aug 2002 at 20:08, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>  >> That's no reason to surrender the instant Jewell is lost.
>  >> 
>  >> And there you go again, thinking strictly in terms of Zhodane on offense, 
>  >> Imperium always and forever on passive defense.
>  >
>  >Well, it's apparently been true historically, for whatever reason.
> 
> Hm.  Sounds like an opportunity for a player character admiral to
> turn things around. 

And then lose his job and get stripped of all his titles for 
precipitating a general free-for-all with the Zhos instead of the 
controlled 'border disputes' that had been the case for the last few 
centuries.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 18:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Wed Aug 14 17:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style
References: <ML-2.3.1029341843.9882.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <001a01c243f2$07311900$b8c8d63f@customer>

Yes, the Ancient Droyne sleepers had disintegrators that worked
telepathicaly.

John Scarlett
----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Jackson" <ajackson@iii.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Cc: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 12:17 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style


> John Scarlett writes:
>
> > Of course MT, TNE, T4 and GT, I'm sure, cover disintegrators.
>
> I have no idea about MT, TNE mentions disintegrators but doesn't provide
stats,
> T4 doesn't even mention disintegrators, GT does have disintegrators though
I'm
> not certain whether they use GURPS disintegrators or GURPS displacers for
the
> mechanic.  Didn't Twilight's Peak have a disintegrator somewhere?
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 19:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 14 18:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style
Message-ID: <OF509F5566.C99AE2BC-ONCA256C16.0002534F-CA256C16.0002E12B@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Frankie wrote:
>Antimissiles and Roundshot
>Variant ship-to-ship weapons for TRAVELLER gaming
>by Jefferson P. Swycaffer

And yes, this is _that_ "Jefferson P. Swycaffer", of Traveller novel fame.

Try Beowulf Down ==> Tavonni Repair Bays ==> Other Assorted Notes ==> The Concordat Novels of Jefferson P. Swycaffer. With thanks to Barry Osser.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 19:17:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Aug 14 18:17:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Beanstalks in 15 years!
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1029341650.3145.ajackson@ping>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020813214526.02abb008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814211556.02ad2008@192.168.0.1>

At 09:14 AM 8/14/2002 -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Mark Urbin writes:
> > Once the first one is built, and it's getting payload into orbit much
> > cheaper than rockets/shuttles,
> > more will be much easier to get funding for...
>However, enlarging an existing beanstalk is definately cheaper than building a
>new one.

Yes, but it won't be yours...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 19:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Aug 14 18:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208140918420.26781-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
References: <20020814182158.C22124@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814211647.026b8008@192.168.0.1>

At 09:20 AM 8/14/2002 -0700, Azalais Malfoy wrote:
>On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Timothy Little wrote:
> > Azalais Malfoy wrote:
> > > I prefer letting the role-playing take care of trade issues, and I
> > > hate math and prolonged dice-rolling.
> > I don't care much for dice-rolling, but I *love* math.  The more the
> > better :)
>Have fun doing all the math you like, but why inflict it on me when I
>really want to role-play?  It isn't necessary for a role-playing game to
>be an arithmetic test, is it?  I don't like games where, even with a
>calculator, I have to give up and get a friend to help me design my
>character, and there's not even any hope of being able to design my ship.
>I *loved* CT and still do.

Gearheading is good for game prep.  If it's there, the gearheads will use 
and produce wonderful stuff for you.
Once you're in the game, ya, I like quick flow too.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
You sound reasonable ... time to up my medication
                  http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 19:26:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Aug 14 18:26:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Origins of the X-Boat System
Message-ID: <200208150124.MUF03132@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Now we know the real reason the network was set up.

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20020812/chinapost.html
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 19:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Aug 14 18:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <3D5ABF63.7030608@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <m3bs87r262.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020814093359.01680b70@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814213324.029860c0@192.168.0.1>

At 01:36 PM 8/14/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
>>At 12:26 AM 8/14/2002 -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>In mail you write:
>>> > So far, the official numbers seem to indicate that there's not an
>>> > awful lot of trade in relative terms.  This is not awfully surprising:
>>> > it's expensive to put stuff up into orbit and expensive to ship it.
>>>Huh? What makes you think it's expensive to get stuff into orbit?
>>>I seem to recall someone running the numbers a while back and having it
>>>come out cheaper than shipping by rail.
>>Isn't the access to launch facilities a bit more limited than rail access?
>Not when an air-raft can reach orbit from *anywhere*.

Whoops! An actual Traveller thread!
Yup, getting to orbit is cheap with anti-grav.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 19:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed Aug 14 18:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Vilani Chess
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020814114531.009f47b0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020815014226.CF59C27941@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/14/02 at 11:48 AM,  Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
said:

>One thing.  Change "poker chip" to some Vilani word for token.

Dare I suggest, Coyne? <g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 19:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Aug 14 18:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Vilani Chess
Message-ID: <200208150147.MUH00929@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Eris Reddoch says
>Dare I suggest, Coyne? <g>

Mr. Whipsnade, give the man a cigar!
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 20:14:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Barnett-Lewis)
Date: Wed Aug 14 19:14:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
References: <20020814224103.11821.52220.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D5B0DCE.DB7DECE8@mailbag.com>

> Okay kiddies, you get to help design the chaos.  I'm trying to decide on the official Famille Spofulam logo font for the licensed merchandise I'm developing for sale.  Here's a page with the contestants so far:
> http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/famillespofulam/
> The logo design I'm considering (and to an extent the printing viability) calls for a blocky, low-slung font.  The examples above are just what happen to be on my machine that I think look reasonably cool.  What are your thoughts?  I'll give folks a week to think about it or suggest cooler alternatives, then I'm off like a bull in a china shop to get this stuff released.  It's only two months behind the schedule I'd originally set for myself 8<;^)

I like beware.
 
> Best,
> Jesse

William
-- 
You better watch out   What you wish for;
It better be worth it  So much to die for.
		       Courtney Love

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 20:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 14 19:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Llellewyloly
Message-ID: <3d.22a837a9.2a8c68df@aol.com>

Roseberry writes:

>Since Junidy has been mentioned, does anyone know if the LLellewyloly
>require different sized staterooms? Is there anything that might be
>different about ships used by the LLellewyloly?
>

They are about human-height, so a purpose-built stateroom would probably be 
about the same size. Depending on how flexable a particular Llellewyloly is, 
his walk will vary from "Disney Chicken" to fairly controlled and normal.

My version of the Llellewyloly (readable at my website - hit the front page 
and follow the essays link), have fairly poor eyesight beyond short range, 
but have *very* good motion-sense. They also have eyes in all five limbs.  As 
such, a Llellewyloly bridge station might have a body cushion behind it to 
provide some bracing, but the Llellewyloly will stand on one leg and 
manipulate controls with the other four. Also, unless the station is also 
meant for other races, it will likely concentrate output devices (screens, 
etc) around one or two limbs, and controls around the rest. secondary outputs 
will be very close to the controls that affect them, and you will not find a 
constant manipulation control that has a related output device more than a 
couple inches away, if ever, unless that readout is actually in front of 
another limb. Such setups require that the user *let go* of the control to 
look at the screen, and that wouldn't be wise.

Same goes, BTW, for on-the-ground technology on Junidy.

The other big difference is that a Llellewyloly ship will *run thin* on 
atmospheric pressure, since they are, to borrow a joke, "Vaccuum Breathers".  
The few that get away from Junidy are those with, IMTU, a paid-for racial 
gene adaption that allows them to handle higher atmospheric pressures. 
Unadapted Llellewyloly will literally cook via over-oxygenation in a normal 
or dense atmosphere...

GC

<http://members.aol.com/gypsycomet/index.html>

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 20:18:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Wed Aug 14 19:18:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F165E@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F165E@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <6b3mlusoijmnf5ij13qm6jgvvi5bm3p9s8@4ax.com>

On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 13:08:34 -0700, "DeGraff, Jesse"
<Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> wrote:

>The logo design I'm considering (and to an extent the printing
>viability) calls for a blocky, low-slung font.  The examples above are
>just what happen to be on my machine that I think look reasonably
>cool.  What are your thoughts?  I'll give folks a week to think about
>it or suggest cooler alternatives, then I'm off like a bull in a china
>shop to get this stuff released.  It's only two months behind the
>schedule I'd originally set for myself 8<;^)

While my first impression was to agree with you on the Beware
typeface, vdub or newbrilliant, being less literal and more graphic in
design, would both appear to be more amenable to a heavily graphic
logo.

That being said, I'll also admit to a fondness for the appearance of
qswitchax.  It is nice, readable and the underplayed
descenders/ascenders keep it interesting.

Given that the Famille is an old, well-established and respected
venture, you may want to consider more traditional typefaces.  The
typefaces you are presently favoring might become as embarrassing as a
Peter Max designed corporate logo would appear to today's eyes.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 20:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 14 19:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <19d.6fbf772.2a8c6b7e@cs.com>

Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com writes:



> Rrrriiiiiiight.  1.I don't have a font editor  2.I've never edited a font 
> before  3.I don't really have TIME to learn how to edit fonts right now ;)  
> 4.I'd kinda' like the stuff to be readable by mundanes  5.BUT, maybe a few 
> selected products in pure Vilani would be cool too!! ;D
> 
> Best,
> Jesse
> 

How about, front of shirt in English, back has Vilani? Or vice-versa.

Doug Grimes


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 20:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 14 19:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <f2.201d5038.2a8c6c62@cs.com>

Les Bates writes:


> Beware, followed by Goodtimes, followed by Vdub.
> 
> What font is Ditzie's Favorite?
> 
> 
> Les
> 

Why, an ele-font, of course.  (g,d, & rlh)   :)

Doug Grimes


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 20:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Aug 14 19:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
In-Reply-To: <f2.201d5038.2a8c6c62@cs.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020814214326.00ac77e0@minn.net>

At 10:30 PM 8/14/2002 EDT, Damage169@cs.com wrote:
>Les Bates writes:
>
>
>> Beware, followed by Goodtimes, followed by Vdub.
>> 
>> What font is Ditzie's Favorite?
>> 
>> 
>> Les
>> 
>
>Why, an ele-font, of course.  (g,d, & rlh)   :)
>
>Doug Grimes

"Ditzie?"

"Yes, Uncle Dennis?"

"This is Mister Doung Grimes, he'll be helping out on the Elephant Mounted
Particle Beam project."

"Kewl!"


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 20:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Wed Aug 14 19:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Origins of the X-Boat System
Message-ID: <3D5B1574.CC96C328@mail.cswnet.com>

>Now we know the real reason the network was set up.

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20020812/chinapost.html

Ah yes. The eternal persistence of death and taxes.
How much you wanna bet they still have undelivered mail;)

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 20:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug 14 19:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Vilani Chess
In-Reply-To: <rlnllucj3kejh56r6tal20o3rbr615c4r0@4ax.com>
References: <20020814224103.11821.52220.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <rlnllucj3kejh56r6tal20o3rbr615c4r0@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020815124910.C24201@freeman.little-possums.net>

Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
> Incidentally, the distinction you're inquiring about isn't 'free'
> vs.  'proprietary'

I would submit that 'free' vs 'proprietary' is exactly what he meant.
The alternative you suggest, 'open source', is somewhere in the
middle.  It is unfortunate that English uses one word, "free", to mean
two quite different things (zero price, and unconfined).


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 20:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 14 19:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <185.cb93391.2a8c71ab@cs.com>

In a message dated 8/14/02 9:42:30 PM Central Daylight Time, 
lesbates@minn.net writes:


> "Ditzie?"
> 
> "Yes, Uncle Dennis?"
> 
> "This is Mister Doung Grimes, he'll be helping out on the Elephant Mounted
> Particle Beam project."
> 
> "Kewl!"
> 
> 
> Les
> 

Alright! I've been canonized (kinda)! :D

Doug Grimes
That's DOUG, not Doung. If I'm going to be Ditzie's latest redshirt, I at 
least want my name right on the cenotaph stone.


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 21:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ken Murphy)
Date: Wed Aug 14 20:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style
Message-ID: <F96q8j0tFKWV5EWnZp7000053c7@hotmail.com>

   In a previous post,John points out that:

In your initial post you mentioned
>disintegrators.  The article, Antimissiles and Roundshot doesn't have
>disintegrators in it.  It covers:
>Minefields
>Tractor/pressor beams
>Solid-shot weapons
>Antimissile clusters
>Beam weapon superchargers
>
>Now issue 108 has an article High Tech and Beyond.  This article covers
>disintegrators and other TL 16 to 21 technology.  It's three pages with 
>some
>charts.

   Sorry,apparently I'd *combined* the two different articles into a single 
document.
   Most of the ideas from #95 have already been scrawled into the margins of 
the starship combat section of my MT Ref's Book for quick access.
   Yes, the article out of #108 is *INDEED* the stuff I am looking for. 
Thanks very much for pointing me in the right direction :)

   And Frankie was nice enough to inform us:

>If anyone wants the articles I'll cut the text and and mail it to yer.
>
>Issue 108 has "Hi-Tech and Beyond" which is three pages and has few
>tables.

   Why yes, Frankie, I would *certainly* appreciate a copy of the issue 108 
article. You others out there might like a copy as well, as it represents a 
decidedly different look at disintagrators (and other stuff) than provided 
in HG or MT. Personally, I *like* the example disintagrator given, which, 
IIRC, could disappear 800 displacement tons with a single hit! Yikes!!!

   Thanks for everyone's help.
  -Ken-

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 21:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 14 20:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <175.d04dba0.2a8c749b@cs.com>

In a message dated 8/14/02 9:54:40 PM Central Daylight Time, Damage169@cs.com 
writes:


> Alright! I've been canonized (kinda)! :D
> 
> Doug Grimes
> That's DOUG, not Doung. If I'm going to be Ditzie's latest redshirt, I at 
> least want my name right on the cenotaph stone.
> 
> 

I mean it. If you want to use me in your stories, I'd be very honored and 
quite tickled by the idea. You write great stuff and I hope to read more 
(perhaps as published Traveller fiction?). I just ask that you get my name 
right (long, painful story). 

Doug Grimes


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 21:08:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 14 20:08:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Aramis ss. navy builds IMTU
Message-ID: <OF361C1449.B157CFE9-ONCA256C16.00038C5A-CA256C16.000DB318@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Dan wrote:
>TLF Imperial Forces, Aramis subsector, MCr 3478268.928
>
>Colonial and Planetary Navies:

You could try to cross-reference these budgets with the tables used to 
create the forces for the FFW board game. Try my site under Tavonni Repair 
Bays ==> Other Assorted Notes ==> Determining Planetary Forces in the Fifth Frontier War.

The tables cover:
        - the planetary defence battalions (immobile)
        - the mobile defence battalions (available for use off-world)
        - SDB factors (immobile)

The other elements from the Imperial forces that are not covered are the mobile planetary fleets (named), the colonial squadrons, and the regular 
Imperial forces (troops and fleets).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 21:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Aug 14 20:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
In-Reply-To: <185.cb93391.2a8c71ab@cs.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020814221416.00795730@minn.net>

At 10:53 PM 8/14/2002 EDT, Doug Grimes wrote:

>Doug Grimes
>That's DOUG, not Doung. If I'm going to be Ditzie's latest redshirt, I at 
>least want my name right on the cenotaph stone.

Got it.

"No Ditzie, you can't test your fusion powered engraver on poor Mr. Grimes'
headstone."


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 21:13:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 14 20:13:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Mail readers
Message-ID: <OFC5E772BF.C6FE7347-ONCA256C16.000E377A-CA256C16.000E9248@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Bruce wrote:
>... vicious rumor... photographs... live goats...
[snip]
>Some transient power surges can be expected as the shredders are 
>started up, but once they are running we expect they'll be kept goping 
>for several days.

"Goping" - presumably something that you do with live groats...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 21:15:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 14 20:15:18 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
Message-ID: <6c.20c4e6a1.2a8c7691@aol.com>

 >I don't think that it's fair to start counting down without giving *some* 
 >hint as to what the characters should be reacting to.

That's how I do it.

Ref:  "Have you ever heard that high whine with the increasing pitch that a 
camera flash makes before it is fully charged?"
Player:  "Yes."
Ref:  "You're hearing that right now."

And, of course, to make them nervous all you have to do is roll some dice 
several times and not say why.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 21:15:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 14 20:15:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <179.d06fe88.2a8c76a3@cs.com>

In a message dated 8/14/02 10:13:44 PM Central Daylight Time, 
lesbates@minn.net writes:


> Got it.
> 
> "No Ditzie, you can't test your fusion powered engraver on poor Mr. Grimes'
> headstone."
> 
> 
> Les
> 

At least that means there's a body left.

Doug G


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 21:17:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Aug 14 20:17:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
In-Reply-To: <175.d04dba0.2a8c749b@cs.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020814221809.00aca200@minn.net>

At 11:06 PM 8/14/2002 EDT, Doug Grimes wrote:
>In a message dated 8/14/02 9:54:40 PM Central Daylight Time,
Damage169@cs.com 
>writes:
>
>
>> Alright! I've been canonized (kinda)! :D
>> 
>> Doug Grimes
>> That's DOUG, not Doung. If I'm going to be Ditzie's latest redshirt, I at 
>> least want my name right on the cenotaph stone.
>> 
>> 
>
>I mean it. If you want to use me in your stories, I'd be very honored and 
>quite tickled by the idea. You write great stuff and I hope to read more 
>(perhaps as published Traveller fiction?). I just ask that you get my name 
>right (long, painful story). 
>
>Doug Grimes

Gosh. I don't know how I'm going to do that.

Yet.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 21:19:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Aug 14 20:19:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
Message-ID: <F6JYsIthCLwkcMtwGtY00007125@hotmail.com>

From: Flykiller@aol.com

     "But I would never continue with a strategy, published or not, that has 
produced nothing but bare draws and significant losses in five wars.  I 
certainly wouldn't stand around passively waiting for the next attack -- 
that guarantees a loss."


Sir,

     Who won and who lost?  Couldn't both sides "win" a war, that is 
generally meet their war aims?(1)  War is politics by other means, that's 
why generals and admirals usually don't decide grand strategy.  They can't 
be trusted with it.
     Why are you so certain the Imperium either "lost" or forced a "draw" in 
the five wars?  What was been Imperial strategy during that time?  It very 
well may be that the Imperium has met it's war aims in most of the Frontier 
Wars and, thus, "won" them as much as the Consulate did.
     Remember the Consulate grand strategy we all generally agreed upon?  
First, evict 3I colonies from Zho territories in the Foreven and Z-something 
Sectors and the Zho portions of the Marches.  Next, establish a multi-parsec 
buffer zone between the Imperium and the Consulate.  In the main, the 
Consulate has succeeded in these aims, the colonies have been 
evicted/absorbed and the Imperium and Consulate only "touch" along a single 
subsector.
     What has the Imperial grand strategy been during this period?  I think 
we can all agree that the strategy has changed over the centuries, but I 
also think we can agree that part of that strategy has been to maintain an 
Imperial presence in the Marches.  Keeping that goal in mind, the Imperium 
has "won" every Frontier War.
     In one of your earlier posts you mentioned something along the lines of 
"Cronor used to be Imperial, I want it back."  When do you want it back?  In 
700?  900?  1105?  The Imperium lost that world during the first two 
frontier wars, the next chance to "liberate" it would be 350 years later.  
That's over TEN human generations.  Do you really think there is huge 
segment of the population on Cronor pining for the long ago days of Imperial 
rule?  Three centuries time during which the Thought Police have worked?
     You've boasted about how your Spinward Marches fleet can win the war 
against their Consulate opponents.  Care to explain how you'll then win the 
peace?  How are you going to control the "lost" Imperial colony of Cronor 
after three centuries of "Zhodani-fication"?
     So, after the first two Frontier Wars, do you seriously believe the 
Imperium wanted all those lost colonies back?

     "So ... how are victories obtained?"

     Victory in battle or victory in war?  If you're asking about victory in 
war, it's obtained by meeting your strategic war aims.  Don't forget, 
winning every battle isn't the way that particular job gets done.  Ever hear 
of Vietnam?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

(1) - Take a look at the War of 1812 for a war in which both sides "won".


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 21:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Aug 14 20:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <6c.20c4e6a1.2a8c7691@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B9806BBF.69A71%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/14/02 8:14 PM, Flykiller@aol.com at Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> Ref:  "Have you ever heard that high whine with the increasing pitch that=
 a
> camera flash makes before it is fully charged?"
> Player:  "Yes."
> Ref:  "You're hearing that right now."
>=20
> And, of course, to make them nervous all you have to do is roll some dice
> several times and not say why.


I've had a lot of success with rolling the dice, then announcing something
like "You don't notice anything."

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 21:22:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Wed Aug 14 20:22:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Traditional Schools
In-Reply-To: <memo.852139@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <000001c2440a$f406c000$6501a8c0@Darla>

IMTU I have University, Military Academy, Naval Academy, Merchant
Academy and Technical School available as first-term educational
options.  University represents any number of civilian institutions.  In
a traditional Traveller campaign, there would of course be several
Military, Naval and Merchant Academies; but in my Milieu 0 campaign
there is one each, located on Capital.  

All of these except Technical School take a full four-year term and, if
the student is successful, give a general Education increase as well as
some specific skills.  I use Int+Edu as an upper limit on total skill
levels, so the Edu increase is important.  Naval Academy graduates may
elect to be commissioned in the Imperial Marines instead of the Imperial
Navy.  

Technical School represents a more narrowly focused 2-year school, and
gives a specific skill-2 without the Edu increase.  Almost any skill can
be acquired at a technical school.  Technical school is followed by a
2-year short term in a career.

Graduates of the 4-year schools can pursue further education at Medical,
Law, Business or Graduate schools before commencing their various
careers.

Tom Barnes


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 21:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Wed Aug 14 20:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Aramis ss. navy builds IMTU
Message-ID: <3D5B1DFC.64717276@mail.cswnet.com>

"Hyphen" writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
You could try to cross-reference these budgets with the tables used to 
create the forces for the FFW board game. Try my site under Tavonni
Repair 
Bays ==> Other Assorted Notes ==> Determining Planetary Forces in the
Fifth Frontier War.

The tables cover:
        - the planetary defence battalions (immobile)
        - the mobile defence battalions (available for use off-world)
        - SDB factors (immobile)
<<<<<<<<<<<<

Yeah, I was looking at one of those tables in JTAS. Interesting thing,
it included planetary defence battalions right down to TL0. This was not
included in the original game; if you looked up Forboldn, for instance,
theres nothing there, but on the chart, I think it has something like 10
TL4 bn and 1 TL4 offworld bn. SDB factors chart I haven't seen; I'll
check it out and see if it diverges from whats shown on the game map.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/SP Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 21:35:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Aug 14 20:35:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Vilani Chess
In-Reply-To: <rlnllucj3kejh56r6tal20o3rbr615c4r0@4ax.com>
References: <20020814224103.11821.52220.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <rlnllucj3kejh56r6tal20o3rbr615c4r0@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <m31y90iym3.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com> writes:
> 
> Incidentally, the distinction you're inquiring about isn't 'free'
> vs.  'proprietary', it's either 'free' vs. 'retail' or 'open-source'
> vs.  'proprietary', and I suspect that you're really interested in
> _both_.

No, it's free in the sense of freedom, free speech, liberty &c. as
opposed to free in the sense of price.  The term open-source means
something slightly different.  Free software is not necessarily
non-retail; in fact, it may come with quite a hefty price tag.

It so happens that the market price for free software is generally
nil, but that's simply a nice side-effect.  What I'm concerned about
is getting the source and being able to do with it essentially what I
will.

> Why do you prefer to avoid 'proprietary' software whenever possible?

Simply that I believe that free software is morally and practically
better than proprietary software.  While I'd not force anyone to free
his software (in exactly the sense that I'd not force anyone to follow
any other of my moral beliefs), I choose not to use proprietary
software where possible, and choose to release my _own_ software under
the GPL.

I suppose that sometime after I finish tractrack I'll have to work on
a game engine.  Those two projects should keep me busy until I'm
dead:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
An American thinks 100 years is a long time;
A European thinks 100 miles is a long distance.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 21:35:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Aug 14 20:35:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F1660@ussvlexc10.corp.n
 etapp.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020814223619.00acf300@minn.net>

"DeGraff, Jesse" <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> wrote:
>You think I'm gonna' ask her?  Are you nuts?!?  
>Last time I talked to her I was in the hospital 
>for 3 months.  And that was wearing armor!  ;)
>
>Jesse

>> What font is Ditzie's Favorite?

"Ditzie!"

"Yes Uncle Dennis?"

"How many times do I and Uncle Hengie have to tell you to not blow up
temporary employees and independant contractors?"

"Two thousand four hundred and seventy two."

That sounded about right to Dennis.

"Now be nice to Mr. DeGraff. Promise?"

Ditzie crossed her fingers behind her back.

"I promise, Uncle Dennis."


Les ;)



==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 21:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Wed Aug 14 20:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Aramis ss. navy builds IMTU
Message-ID: <3D5B2109.8E4B6BD9@mail.cswnet.com>

"Hyphen" wrote
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You could try to cross-reference these budgets with the tables used to 
create the forces for the FFW board game. Try my site under Tavonni
Repair Bays ==> Other Assorted Notes ==> Determining Planetary Forces in
the Fifth Frontier War.
<<<<<<<<<<<<snippaged>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Just took a look at it. I've got an initial fleet built for Junidy
pending some other research on LLellewyloly that I'm looking at; one of
the fleet units is a purpose built assault ship carrying 500 marines. 

The budget allowed for 500 such assault ships.

Thats a 5-C TL9 unit.
In addition, it has over 1000 Type R sub merchants.
I won't even discuss BB's and SDB's.

FLOWER POWER!!!

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 21:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Aug 14 20:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020814221809.00aca200@minn.net>
References: <175.d04dba0.2a8c749b@cs.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020814224323.00ad1e20@minn.net>

At 10:18 PM 8/14/2002 -0500, I wrote:
>At 11:06 PM 8/14/2002 EDT, Doug Grimes wrote:
>>In a message dated 8/14/02 9:54:40 PM Central Daylight Time,
>Damage169@cs.com 
>>writes:
>>
>>
>>> Alright! I've been canonized (kinda)! :D

>>I mean it. If you want to use me in your stories, I'd be very honored and 
>>quite tickled by the idea. You write great stuff and I hope to read more 
>>(perhaps as published Traveller fiction?). I just ask that you get my name 
>>right (long, painful story). 
>>
>>Doug Grimes
>
>Gosh. I don't know how I'm going to do that.
>
>Yet.

Saint Doug the Grimy? Hmmm...

I just finished Red Rabbit by Tom Clancy today. Something about a plot to
assassinate the Pope.

TC needs to work on character names. Would you believe there's a Colonel
Strokov?


Les




==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 21:58:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Aug 14 20:58:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
In-Reply-To: <F6JYsIthCLwkcMtwGtY00007125@hotmail.com>
References: <F6JYsIthCLwkcMtwGtY00007125@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <1029383822.3d5b268eca2b7@www.paradise.net.nz>

Quoting "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>:

> (1) - Take a look at the War of 1812 for a war in which both sides
> "won".

Funny, I use the War of 1812 as an example of a war in which almost everyone 
lost. In the long run the British failed to control American expansionism (one 
of their goals), the would-be land-grabbers failed to get any new lands, and 
the US states lost power.

The only winner I see was the US Federal government, which gained all sorts of 
cool powers, like being able to directly raise an army suitable for foreign 
adventures (rather than have to rely on the states lending their milita - fine 
for defence, lousy for land-grabs), and being able to raise taxes to pay for 
this army (and other stuff, of course).

-- 
Rupert Boleyn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 14 22:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Wed Aug 14 21:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators in MT
Message-ID: <000901c24410$635d0040$9d4a1c43@customer>

Anthony Jackson writes:
>I have no idea about MT, TNE mentions disintegrators but doesn't provide
stats,
>T4 doesn't even mention disintegrators, GT does have disintegrators though
I'm
>not certain whether they use GURPS disintegrators or GURPS displacers for
the
>mechanic.

The MT Referee's Manuel has disintegrators in the craft construction rules.
Spinal mounts at TL 17 to 21, bay weapons: 100tn at TL17 and 50tn TL 18, and
turrets at TL 18.

The Rebellion Sourcebook has a TL 13 battleship that was upgraded to a
disintegrator and a TL 15 fusion PP.

The Referee's Companion has a technology chart that has disintegrator rifle
at TL 18, disintegrator at TL 19, and disintegrator wands at TL 20.

I imagine T4 doesn't have disintegrators because the general TL is to low.
TNE might not have rules for them because of the TL regression.

Daniel Tackett writes:
>The only mention I've seen in the LBBs is on page 14
>of book 3. It says disintegrators are TL 16.

TL 16 might be when the first prototypes appear.

John Scarlett
----------------------------------
I'd be unstoppable, if I just had the energy to get started.





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 02:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Thu Aug 15 01:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <memo.857356@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPCENLEMAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Isn't this the card system used in TNE and the old GDW house rules to
determine NPC character and motivations?

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Megan Robertson
Sent: Wednesday, 14 August 2002 10:42 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Cc: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk
Subject: Re: [TML] Too much time on our hands


In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0208140920470.2949-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
> > A detailed and self-consistent set of rules for NPC psychology in
> > general would be handy, including motivations, internal conflicts,
> > biases, thought patterns, and personality traits that aren't simple
> > advantages or disadvantages.  Non-human psychology as well, of course.
>
> Hmm...  I never thought of that before, but I think if something like
> that
> were well-done it would become indispensable for every RPG ever
> published.

Never thought of codifying this: it just kinda flows naturally when I am
creating a scenario.... or (often) while running it! My notes are covered
with scribbles that I make during play to ensure that I remember what each
of the NPCs is like the next time the characters meet him.

Another trick I use is 'name-triggers' - in the game I'm running at the
moment, there's an Internal Security officer who has the same name as my
boss at work. I can give him the same style, attitudes, etc., he just
happens to have a different job... but he approaches it in the same way.
The name alone triggers this.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 02:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 01:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <d1a4cd4887.d4887d1a4c@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "DeGraff, Jesse" <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com>
Date: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 11:08 pm
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D

> Okay kiddies, you get to help design the chaos.  I'm trying to 
> decide on the official Famille Spofulam logo font for the licensed 
> merchandise I'm developing for sale.  Here's a page with the 
> contestants so far:
> http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/famillespofulam/

For M:1100+ products, I'd go with vdub.

OTOH, for M:0-era products, I'm split between beware and 
supersoulfighter.

At any rate, I would suggest using different fonts for different eras; 
this nicely mimics the periodic revamping of corporate logos to match 
current esthetics.

<<snip>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 02:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Thu Aug 15 01:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
References: <20020814224103.11821.52220.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D5B69A8.879843DC@ameritech.net>

> From: "DeGraff, Jesse" <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com>
> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 13:08:34 -0700

> Okay kiddies, you get to help design the chaos.  I'm trying to 
> decide on the official Famille Spofulam logo font for the licensed 
> merchandise I'm developing for sale.  

I vote for new briliant or vdub. 

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 03:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug 15 02:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Beanstalks in 15 years!
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020813214526.02abb008@192.168.0.1> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814211556.02ad2008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <003a01c2443f$ce2736a0$8d0dbd50@martinjd>

Could someone repost the original URL please?

Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-to-the-Masses
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 03:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 02:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Vilani Chess
In-Reply-To: <20020814190010.7519.86867.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17fHH6-0005pD-0U@anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net>

> As I mentioned yesterday, this is something I'm working up for inclusion as
> a sidebar to GT: Nobles, as a bit of chrome. I am also thinking about a
> "pure" Vilani boardgame, but that will probably be a loosely disguised lift

A long time ago, back in the glory days of the Trav Culture list (anybody else remember that the vilani for 'chair' is 'irish' ? :o) I came up with a Vilani boardgame. In fact, having just checked, it was more than 4 years ago! <Gulp> *Now* I'm starting to feel old... :o/

Anyway, the game is called Uneshma, and it's described on the following page -

http://www.geocities.com/Rob_Day/uneshma.htm

'Learn to play the game of Uneshma! A traditional Vilani game for players of all ages. 
"Takes seconds to learn, but years to master." - Digiri Girasar (Vland Sector Champion, 1112 - 1114)'

Rob.
(What? It's time for my yearly post to the list *already*?! :o)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 04:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Aug 15 03:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
In-Reply-To: <179.d06fe88.2a8c76a3@cs.com>
References: <179.d06fe88.2a8c76a3@cs.com>
Message-ID: <20020815112422.1fa92ea7.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 23:14:43 -0400 (EDT)
Damage169@cs.com wrote:

> At least that means there's a body left.

How do you feel about the word  "memorial" ?   :-)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 04:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Aug 15 03:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Vilani Chess
In-Reply-To: <E17fHH6-0005pD-0U@anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net>
References: <20020814190010.7519.86867.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <E17fHH6-0005pD-0U@anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net>
Message-ID: <20020815205803.A25298@freeman.little-possums.net>

rob@glisten.demon.co.uk wrote:
> 'Learn to play the game of Uneshma! A traditional Vilani game for
> players of all ages.  "Takes seconds to learn, but years to master."
> - Digiri Girasar (Vland Sector Champion, 1112 - 1114)'

It looks like a very good game for Vilani.  As far as I can tell,
either player can force a perpetual stalemate :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 05:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Thu Aug 15 04:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F165E@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <008801c2444d$bf6568e0$7400a8c0@matt>

----- Original Message -----
From: "DeGraff, Jesse" <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 9:08 PM
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D


> Okay kiddies, you get to help design the chaos.  I'm trying to decide on
the official Famille Spofulam logo font for the licensed merchandise I'm
developing for sale.  Here's a page with the contestants so far:
> http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/famillespofulam/
> The logo design I'm considering (and to an extent the printing viability)
calls for a blocky, low-slung font.  The examples above are just what happen
to be on my machine that I think look reasonably cool.  What are your
thoughts?  I'll give folks a week to think about it or suggest cooler
alternatives, then I'm off like a bull in a china shop to get this stuff
released.  It's only two months behind the schedule I'd originally set for
myself 8<;^)
>
> Best,
> Jesse

1) borg9

2) vdub

3) newbrilliant

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 06:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thing)
Date: Thu Aug 15 05:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F165E@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <000f01c24459$d3e56700$0100a8c0@pentacle>

On Wednesday, August 14, 2002 1:08 PM
DeGraff, Jesse said,

>  What are your thoughts?  I'll give folks a week to think about it or
suggest cooler alternatives,
> then I'm off like a bull in a china shop to get this stuff released.  It's
only two months behind the
>  schedule I'd originally set for myself 8<;^)


Although I like the looks of vdub, the use of the dots can make the text a
little difficult to interpret.

Overall my favorite font is beware.  It's easily readable, but still retains
a fairly slick appearance.  I also like the way the beginning and ending
characters have some slope to the edges so that you can place the name
within more interesting bounding boxes without generating too much negative
space.

I also like freya, but it seems more like the team polo shirt font than one
that would be used on coffee mugs and various other spiffs and merchandise.

G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
Grand Master of the Electron Flow
Minion to SheChemist and GothBunny
==========================
"There ain't no rules around here.  We're trying to accomplish
something." -Thomas Edison


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 07:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff D. Greenly)
Date: Thu Aug 15 06:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
Message-ID: <sd5b6efc.064@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>

At 01:36 PM 8/14/2002 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>>Mark Urbin wrote:
>>>At 12:26 AM 8/14/2002 -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>>In mail you write:
>>>> > So far, the official numbers seem to indicate that there's not
an
>>>> > awful lot of trade in relative terms.  This is not awfully
surprising:
>>>> > it's expensive to put stuff up into orbit and expensive to ship
it.
>>>>Huh? What makes you think it's expensive to get stuff into orbit?
>>>>I seem to recall someone running the numbers a while back and
having it
>>>>come out cheaper than shipping by rail.
>>>Isn't the access to launch facilities a bit more limited than rail
access?
>>Not when an air-raft can reach orbit from *anywhere*.
>
>Whoops! An actual Traveller thread!
>Yup, getting to orbit is cheap with anti-grav.

This statement raises an interesting question for me. If one can obtain
orbit from just about anywhere on a planet's surface cheaply and
relatively effortlessly, why have downports, except in a frontier
setting? What useful purpose do they serve? The rail analogy mentioned
above is a good one. Towns and industries sprung up along rail lines.
When the interstate highway system came together it became much more
economically viable to ship goods via truck, as you weren't tied into
the rail system's locations and tariffs. The rail systems still work for
large freight and for multi-modal transport of goods, but with anti-grav
it's just a matter of building a bigger lifter, right? Does a downport
serve as a hub? If so, why? If I am a factory owner and I need parts
regularly shipped to me from Regina, why would I want to travel halfway
around the world to pick up goods at the downport that could have been
picked up in orbit? 

Jeff

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 07:15:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 06:15:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <4c.ffdf30c.2a8d0316@cs.com>

In a message dated 8/14/02 10:42:38 PM Central Daylight Time, 
lesbates@minn.net writes:


> TC needs to work on character names. Would you believe there's a Colonel
> Strokov?
> 
> 
> Les
> 

Just so long as there's no Colonel Lingus.

Doug G


--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 07:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Aug 15 06:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22DFA@USCHM203>

>"Jeff D. Greenly" wrote:

>If so, why? If I am a factory owner and I need parts
>regularly shipped to me from Regina, why would I want to travel halfway
>around the world to pick up goods at the downport that could have been
>picked up in orbit?

It depends on how your goods are shipped. Are they a small part of a large
cargo shipment, or a single cargo. If I'm a merchant captain, I'm not going
to hand deliver every cargo individually to each recipient. I'm going to
drop it off at a central receiving area.
And how big are the surface-to orbit grav vehicles? In my experience---okay,
imaginary experience--- few grav vehicles come anywhere near the size of
starships. For small cargos, or UPS/FEDEX type delivery, I could see this,
but for shipping large objects and equipment it is going to take a fairly
large ship.
Big merchant ships are going to land at large facilities that can refuel,
repair, and maintain them, just as big airlines don't service small rural
airports (this isn't just a matter of runway size, but also because it is
simply not economical to do so). 
Some urban or protected wilderness areas might simply bar any sort of
atmospheric flight in the vicinity.
There is also local customs and immigration organizations to consider.
Customs officials would rather have a limited amount of landing points on a
world, rather than spreading their agents and offices all over the planet.
Of course, orbit would be a good place for this sort of thing, then ships
could be free to land wherever they want, but I would tend to think that
large centralized starports would be the rule in most cases.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 08:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Aug 15 07:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
Message-ID: <F145NYxX60VJe2NrLaL0000e4cf@hotmail.com>

From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

     "Funny, I use the War of 1812 as an example of a war in which almost 
everyone lost."


Mr. Boleyn,

     It was a nearly useless war, wasn't it?

     "In the long run the British failed to control American expansionism 
(one of their goals), the would-be land-grabbers failed to get any new 
lands, and the US states lost power."

     Well, the UK did turn the US aside from Canada and the US finally 
convinced the UK to withdraw from the Old Northwest (Michigan, Indiana, 
Illinois, Ohio, etc.) as promised in the treaty that ended the Revolutionary 
War.  There's a win-win for you.
     The UK did keep US from lifting, or continuing to ignore, the 
Continental Blockade (although by 1812 that was mostly moot), but the US 
finally gained true recognition of it's sovereignty from the UK.  Another 
win-win there.
     Most importantly, both sides began to talk to one another as 
governments.  Trade agreements, diplomacy, and treaties resulted.  The UK 
finally realized that the US wasn't going to go away and the US somewhat got 
over it's Anglo-phobia.  Win-win-win!

     "The only winner I see was the US Federal government, which gained all 
sorts of cool powers,..."

     That was bound to happen eventually.  Either the War of 1812 or some 
other crisis would have triggered it.

     "...like being able to directly raise an army suitable for foreign
>adventures (rather than have to rely on the states lending their milita - 
>fine for defence, lousy for land-grabs),..."

     Rather poor at both, I'm afraid.  Militia, at the US variety, was 
horrible.  It was more of a social and/or civic group.  You joined to fit in 
with or get ahead in your community, like the Masons or Anglican church.  
They'd defend their homes (maybe) but they wouldn't defend the next town, 
county, or state.
     Most of the '46-'48 landgrabs (some of our best) were done with either 
regular or irregular volunteers.  Doniphan's Thousand is a good example of 
the irregular type, just a bunch of wild boys joined up for an adventure.  
The state contingents sent to Tyler's and Scott's armies were not the actual 
state militia formations, but rather volunteers from the both pre-existing 
militia groups and the general population formed into new, 
for-this-war-only, regiments.
     Getting back to Our Olde Game, assuming both the Imperial and Consulate 
overall war aims (hold onto the Marches & evict colonies/form buffer zone), 
I'd say BOTH sides won Frontier Wars Three, Four, and Five.  You could even 
make an argument for the Imperium winning numbers One and Two.  After all, 
the Zhos didn't take advantage of a civil war wracked Imperium to set the 
new border somewhere in the Corridor Sector.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 09:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Long)
Date: Thu Aug 15 08:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Stripmime ....
In-Reply-To: <20020814190010.7519.86867.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000401c2446e$9e034160$49a3073e@MakaiSoft.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of
> tml-request@travellercentral.com
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 7
> DATE: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 17:16:40 +0000 (GMT)
> From: "Mark Urbin" <eclipse@urbin.net>
> To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
> SUBJECT: Re: [TML] Beanstalks in 15 years!
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
> text/plain
> --- StripMime Errors ---
> A message with no plaintext section was received.
> The entire body of the message was removed.  Please
> resend the email using plaintext formatting
> ---
>
> --__--__--
>
Dear Listmom/Listmom alternate

We seem to still have problems with the StripMime program. This time it's
disembowelling Mrk Urbin's posts....

Andy

--
 Andrew Long            Email   AndrewGLong@Yahoo.com (Preferred)
 1 Court Hill                   AndyLong@Ecossetel.com
 Taunton                Phone   +44 (7817) 533382 (Mobile/UK)
 TA1 4SX                        +44 (1823) 337322 (Home/UK)
 England                        (+971 (50) 521 3651 Mobile/UAE)
--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 09:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (markc@peak.org)
Date: Thu Aug 15 08:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <303330-220028415152019911@M2W041.mail2web.com>

Jesse, I think "beware" is definitely the right choice=2E

BTW, I want your TrueType files for *all* those fonts=2E :^)

    - Mark C=2E



--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 09:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug 15 08:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Qorld Queries
Message-ID: <20020815153108.90083.qmail@web20901.mail.yahoo.com>

I have several worlds that I was wondering if there
are landgrabs for.  Also, if anyone knows of any
official information for any of these worlds, I would
appreciate that also.

I believe this is data from 1116.  If anyone has any
information on any of these worlds, I would greatly
appreciate a reference.

Spinward Marches:
2536     Squanine       A300550-B
2537     Dobham         A450457-A
2733     Edenelt        A4638BD-B
2936     Hammermium     A5525AB-B
3029     Pallique       A511965-E
3039     Youghal        AA95365-B
3235     Trin           A894A96-F

Deneb:
0233     Inkekush       A140548-E
0235     Saguenay       B438256-F
0332     Aosta          A669236-C
0729     Norg           A000114-D
0731     Qevar          A2326AE-F

Thanks,
Paul



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HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 09:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Long)
Date: Thu Aug 15 08:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Clancy books
In-Reply-To: <20020815131503.28324.59281.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000601c24472$49f5c800$49a3073e@MakaiSoft.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 22:43:23 -0500
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> From: Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net>
> Subject: Re: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
<Snip>
> 
> I just finished Red Rabbit by Tom Clancy today. Something 
> about a plot to
> assassinate the Pope.
> 
> TC needs to work on character names. Would you believe 
> there's a Colonel
> Strokov?
> 
Amazon in the Uk says it isn't available for two more weeks

Doh.

Andy
--
 Andrew Long            Email   AndrewGLong@Yahoo.com (Preferred)
 1 Court Hill                   AndyLong@Ecossetel.com
 Taunton                Phone   +44 (7817) 533382 (Mobile/UK)
 TA1 4SX                        +44 (1823) 337322 (Home/UK)
 England                        (+971 (50) 521 3651 Mobile/UAE)
--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 09:45:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 08:45:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Vilani Chess
In-Reply-To: <20020815131503.28324.59281.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17fMna-000DYG-0X@anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net>

> It looks like a very good game for Vilani.  As far as I can tell,
> either player can force a perpetual stalemate :)

That's why extra pieces are brought into play every now and again. Having said that, I just skimmed the rules when I read them today (rather than reading them properly) so there is a fair chance I missed something when I originally wrote them....

Rob.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 09:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Aug 15 08:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
In-Reply-To: <303330-220028415152019911@M2W041.mail2web.com>
References: <303330-220028415152019911@M2W041.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <20020815175632.32b51c8f.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Thu, 15 Aug 2002 11:20:19 -0400
"markc@peak.org" <markc@peak.org> wrote:

> Jesse, I think "beware" is definitely the right choice.
> 
> BTW, I want your TrueType files for *all* those fonts. :^)

As a matter of fact, so do I... and probably others on this list as
well.

Unless impossible for copyright reasons, could you put them in your
download area?

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 10:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Greg Porter)
Date: Thu Aug 15 09:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] EABA & Traveller
Message-ID: <B9812DA5.8D26%btrc@BTRC.NET>

Stephen,
Catching your TML thread 15 months after the fact, I can proudly announce
that EABA is now available. More than that, I talked with Marc Miller at
GenCon, and he is not averse to an EABA Traveller. Nothing has been
formalized at this point, but if you like EABA and have any blackmail
material on Marc, feel free to use it to influence his decision.

Yeah, yet another Traveller. But I am psyched about the possibility at
putting Trav on a system of my own design.

Greg Porter
BTRC


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 10:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug 15 09:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Too much time on our hands
Message-ID: <20020815163640.3552.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>

>Ick.  I *hate* that, it makes things outside the game interfere with
>the in-game events.  For instance, I'm a slow decision-maker in real
>life; you would condemn all my characters to share the same trait.

Role-playing is basically acting.  So read some Stanislavsky, think
about it, and try to _feel_ like someone who makes decisions quickly.
 You might also try some sports that require quick decision-making
and team play, like basketball or paintball.

I'm also highly confident that if you ever have the misfortune to be
a real firefight or other violence, you'll make decisions more
quickly than you imagined possible.  

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
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HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 10:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Thu Aug 15 09:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810092937.009f60f0@mindspring.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810092937.009f60f0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <p04330100b98189c49a88@[198.123.22.171]>

At 9:32 AM -0700 8/10/02, Douglas Berry wrote:
>>I can't imagine lasers making any noise at all, unless you
>>hit someone.  And if they aren't in the visible light range
>>(ideal transmission is apparently in the near infrared for
>>work in Earth's atmosphere), you won't see the near miss
>>either.
>
>I always gave them a very quiet hiss as the beam incinerated 
>dust/water vapor in the beam path.  Any noise at all drowns it out.

According to GURPS, heating of the air creates a "crack".  The one 
time I saw a high powered laser supports this.  Of course this may 
depend on wavelength....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 10:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Thu Aug 15 09:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day
In-Reply-To: <200208102032.MMN00082@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208102032.MMN00082@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <p04330101b9818a6fc2cd@[143.232.119.186]>

At 4:32 PM -0400 8/10/02, John T. Kwon wrote:
>The major clears his throat.  He knows Groth is working hard,
>but he's never gotten used to the idea of men growling and
>barking like dogs.

Actually, it won't be "like dogs".  There will be some resemblance, 
but the language needs to be more complex to carry info.  I probably 
has the same similarity to barking that our speech has to a the 
sounds a monkey can make (less if you think that the sonds a monkey 
makes are more expressive).
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 10:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Thu Aug 15 09:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Audible Signature of Suppressed Weapons...
In-Reply-To: <p04330100b98189c49a88@[198.123.22.171]>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810092937.009f60f0@mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020810092937.009f60f0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020815114252.020852b0@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

At 09:41 AM 8/15/02 -0700, you wrote:
>At 9:32 AM -0700 8/10/02, Douglas Berry wrote:
>>>I can't imagine lasers making any noise at all, unless you
>>>hit someone.  And if they aren't in the visible light range
>>>(ideal transmission is apparently in the near infrared for
>>>work in Earth's atmosphere), you won't see the near miss
>>>either.
>>
>>I always gave them a very quiet hiss as the beam incinerated dust/water 
>>vapor in the beam path.  Any noise at all drowns it out.
>
>According to GURPS, heating of the air creates a "crack".  The one time I 
>saw a high powered laser supports this.  Of course this may depend on 
>wavelength....
>--

It shouldn't depend on wavelength - at least not much.

If you are pumping enough energy into the beam that it will do damage at a 
distance to something, it's gonna do damage to the air molecules 
in-between, I should think.

Victor


Victor J. Raymond
Department of Sociology, ISU
vraymond@iastate.edu

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 10:47:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Thu Aug 15 09:47:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day
Message-ID: <p04330102b9818aede040@[143.232.119.186]>

>At 4:32 PM -0400 8/10/02, John T. Kwon wrote:
>>The major clears his throat.  He knows Groth is working hard,
>>but he's never gotten used to the idea of men growling and
>>barking like dogs.
>
>Actually, it won't be "like dogs".  There will be some resemblance, 
>but the language needs to be more complex to carry info.  I probably 
>has the same similarity to barking that our speech has to a the 
>sounds a monkey can make (less if you think that the sonds a monkey 
>makes are more expressive).

Hasn't Gvegh been described as sounding like an "asthmatic dog 
coughing"?  That might work since the description implies a lot of 
wierd sounds that can carry info.  (though, remember, since Vargr can 
speak human languages, and vice versa, it should be, at least mostly, 
sounds a human can make)(.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 11:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug 15 10:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] World Queries
In-Reply-To: <20020815153108.90083.qmail@web20901.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020815170345.86776.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>

Fie and Px on my fat fingers.  And sorry for
reposting, but the previous subject war really
irritating me.

--- Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I have several worlds that I was wondering if there
> are landgrabs for.  Also, if anyone knows of any
> official information for any of these worlds, I
> would
> appreciate that also.
> 
> I believe this is data from 1116.  If anyone has any
> information on any of these worlds, I would greatly
> appreciate a reference.
> 
> Spinward Marches:
> 2536     Squanine       A300550-B
> 2537     Dobham         A450457-A
> 2733     Edenelt        A4638BD-B
> 2936     Hammermium     A5525AB-B
> 3029     Pallique       A511965-E
> 3039     Youghal        AA95365-B
> 3235     Trin           A894A96-F
> 
> Deneb:
> 0233     Inkekush       A140548-E
> 0235     Saguenay       B438256-F
> 0332     Aosta          A669236-C
> 0729     Norg           A000114-D
> 0731     Qevar          A2326AE-F
> 
> Thanks,
> Paul


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HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 11:27:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Aug 15 10:27:17 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <d2.1c818998.2a8c4ae4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020815102104.009fb480@mindspring.com>

At 08:08 PM 8/14/02 -0400, you wrote:
>  >> That's no reason to surrender the instant Jewell is lost.
>  >>
>  >> And there you go again, thinking strictly in terms of Zhodane on 
> offense,
>  >> Imperium always and forever on passive defense.
>  >
>  >Well, it's apparently been true historically, for whatever reason.
>
>Hm.  Sounds like an opportunity for a player character admiral to turn things
>around.

Remember MacArthur!


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 11:27:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Aug 15 10:27:52 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <7c.2c7a4f5c.2a8c4912@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020815101514.009e3c60@mindspring.com>

At 08:00 PM 8/14/02 -0400, you wrote:

>You are forgiven (as if you need to ask me).  But I would never continue with
>a strategy, published or not, that has produced nothing but bare draws and
>significant losses in five wars.  I certainly wouldn't stand around passively
>waiting for the next attack -- that guarantees a loss.

Remember:  The military is under the control of the civilian power 
structure.  What is to be gained by attacking the Consulate?  Nothing that 
I can see.  What would the war goals be?

>  >That, and using my lessons from over twenty years of serious research
>  >into military history.
>
>So ... how are victories obtained?

In the Marches?  For the Zhodani, keeping the Imperium off balance and 
afraid of the Zhodani.  The Imperium wants to maintain the status 
quo.  Both sides appear to be happy with the current balance of power.

The Fifth Frontier War was a clear victory for the Imperium without taking 
any more real estate than Esalin.  Why?  It shattered the Sword Worlds, and 
broke several Zhodani fleets.  The message was clear:  Attack at your own 
risk.  I think that we will now see a century of peace between the 
Consulate and the Imperium.

The goal of war is not always conquest of territory.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.
gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Author of GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces
Geek Code: tc tm tn- t4-- tg++$ ru ge+ 3i+@ c+
            jt- au pi he+ as+ so-                           



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 11:28:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Aug 15 10:28:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <sd5b6efc.064@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020815102325.009f8a40@mindspring.com>

At 09:05 AM 8/15/02 -0400, you wrote:

>This statement raises an interesting question for me. If one can obtain
>orbit from just about anywhere on a planet's surface cheaply and
>relatively effortlessly, why have downports, except in a frontier
>setting? What useful purpose do they serve? The rail analogy mentioned
>above is a good one. Towns and industries sprung up along rail lines.
>When the interstate highway system came together it became much more
>economically viable to ship goods via truck, as you weren't tied into
>the rail system's locations and tariffs. The rail systems still work for
>large freight and for multi-modal transport of goods, but with anti-grav
>it's just a matter of building a bigger lifter, right? Does a downport
>serve as a hub? If so, why? If I am a factory owner and I need parts
>regularly shipped to me from Regina, why would I want to travel halfway
>around the world to pick up goods at the downport that could have been
>picked up in orbit?

A central location for gathering freight, and for the essential services 
needed for starships.  Also it gives control over imports/exports and 
immigration.

I would think that many worlds would restrict access to orbit.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 11:30:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Aug 15 10:30:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814211647.026b8008@192.168.0.1>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208140918420.26781-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
 <20020814182158.C22124@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020815102553.009f6d70@mindspring.com>

At 09:19 PM 8/14/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Gearheading is good for game prep.  If it's there, the gearheads will use 
>and produce wonderful stuff for you.
>Once you're in the game, ya, I like quick flow too.

I've always seen gearheading as good set design.  90% of the time, it will 
go unnoticed.  But when the characters need to know what the exact airspeed 
of the ship is, or how much damage the g-carrier can sustain, then it's 
better to have those numbers at hand.

Planet design is fun because you get plots by the handful, not to mention 
local color, from the design process.



--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 11:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Rocchi)
Date: Thu Aug 15 10:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <OF16A1FA8C.C38B98D3-ON85256C16.0061644B@pok.ibm.com>

How about the 'Borg9' font - with a little 'weapons discharge sparkly' at
the end of the white break?

Joseph Paul Rocchi
IBM Global Services




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 11:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sparky)
Date: Thu Aug 15 10:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
References: <200208141347.MTJ01845@vmms1.verisignmail.com><20020815081543.B23732@freeman.little-possums.net><007801c243e1$ee731fe0$67e84242@upstairs> <20020815011002.57f51b19.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <00a701c24484$67ca7ad0$67e84242@upstairs>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jens Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
> That a photon creates an interference pattern with itself means simply
> this: That viewing a photon as a particle is not correct.

> Photons can in some situations (excitation/de-excitation of atoms for
> example) be viewed as particles, in other situations (interference
> patterns etc) they can be viewed as waves. To say that they are simply
> particles (or simply waves) is not completely true.

> Unless, off course, you consider the fact that this dual nature is
true
> for all particles...  ;-)

Ah I see. =) How does one properly view
what-I-was-mostly-taught-was-particles to be waves?

I tend to imagine waves as being always "in-motion"...and it makes it
hard for me to imagine how all the things I see around me as solid
constructs can act as waves.

Sparky



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 12:05:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Aug 15 11:05:04 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <00a701c24484$67ca7ad0$67e84242@upstairs>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029434651.2754.ajackson@ping>

Sparky writes:

> > Unless, off course, you consider the fact that this dual nature is
> true
> > for all particles...  ;-)
> 
> Ah I see. =) How does one properly view
> what-I-was-mostly-taught-was-particles to be waves?

Well, you can create perfectly acceptable diffraction patterns with electrons
(and, in fact, the conventional understanding of electron shells is as standing
waves about a nucleus). With larger objects it rapidly becomes difficult to
demonstrate the wave patterns because the wavelengths are very short.
> 
> I tend to imagine waves as being always "in-motion"

No, there's such a thing as a standing wave.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 12:06:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Thu Aug 15 11:06:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: High Tech Movie Making
In-Reply-To: <127.154ad830.2a8b0295@aol.com>
References: <127.154ad830.2a8b0295@aol.com>
Message-ID: <p04330103b9819d5134f4@[143.232.119.186]>

At 8:47 PM -0400 8/13/02, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
>Also, much of the "underwater" filming is actually done in the open
>air. Filming in crystal clear water looks too unrealistic

It is odd when the "real thing" doesn't look realistic.

A similar issue when you film human events.  Someone took a movie 
camera and filmed one of Zappata's raids on a train.  Apparently they 
didn't find any of the footage useful.  A real battle is too chaotic 
for a movie....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 12:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Nick Wright)
Date: Thu Aug 15 11:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Motown Keyboard Kill
Message-ID: <001901c24487$2cd05640$e4c187d9@fg>

Frankie (Munden) wrote:

"I know Loren, Martin and John,    ...."

Keyboard Kill, Sir.

I remain etc, etc.
Nick Wright



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 12:19:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Thu Aug 15 11:19:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Vilani Chess
In-Reply-To: <l03010d05b9804706017d@[192.168.1.67]>
References: <l03010d05b9804706017d@[192.168.1.67]>
Message-ID: <p04330104b9819f4fad18@[143.232.119.186]>

At 12:57 PM -0500 8/14/02, Loren Wiseman wrote:
>As I mentioned yesterday, this is something I'm working up for inclusion as
>a sidebar to GT: Nobles, as a bit of chrome. I am also thinking about a
>"pure" Vilani boardgame, but that will probably be a loosely disguised lift
>of some other ancient game, like Senet or Latrones or some such. If any of
>the TML are into chess variants, I would be interested in your opinions and
>a description of any perceived flaws with the following (short summary).

I was on the chess team.  I've seen a lot of varients, though I'm not 
sure what I remember of them.

>[insert Vilani word here] (the Starship): , Only moves if it can jump over
>pieces, and can move only to the other side of a row of one or more peices
>(of either side) in a straight line in any direction, or can end a jump by
>capturing an enemy piece. If it has no pieces to jump over, it cannot move
>(but it can capture a piece immediately adjacent to it). 2/side

One advantage of chess is that it produces involved strategies w/out 
complex movement rules (thorugh the interaction of the pieces). 
Giving a piece a conditional movement rule is contrary to the feel of 
chess.  If you want a starship feel.  Maybe the piece can move 2 
hexes in any direction, skipping intermediate hexes.  (like a 
starship jump).

>
>[insert Vilani word here] (Knight: As knight 2/side.

One old varient was to not allow a knight to jump pieces.

>
>[insert Vilani word here] (Citadel):

If you are going to have a starship, I would have a more modern 
metaphor than a "citadel".

>[insert Vilani word here] (Soldier): Pawn equivalent, but move diagonally,
>capture straight ahead, no double move or en passant.

This would loose a lot of the strategy since you can set up an 
maintain the lines.  I would keep as is.  But loosing the double move 
is fine.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 12:20:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Aug 15 11:20:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
References: <B9806BBF.69A71%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D5BF0B9.2020707@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> on 8/14/02 8:14 PM, Flykiller@aol.com at Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> 
> 
>>Ref:  "Have you ever heard that high whine with the increasing pitch that a
>>camera flash makes before it is fully charged?"
>>Player:  "Yes."
>>Ref:  "You're hearing that right now."
>>
>>And, of course, to make them nervous all you have to do is roll some dice
>>several times and not say why.
> 
> 
> 
> I've had a lot of success with rolling the dice, then announcing something
> like "You don't notice anything."

Nope rolling a huge pile of dice, counting up numbers, and thenm looking 
at them with a fiendish grin and cackling madly.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 12:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug 15 11:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Traveller Mental Picture of the Day
Message-ID: <20020815182824.55023.qmail@web20417.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>

>Hasn't Gvegh been described as sounding like an "asthmatic dog 
>coughing"?  That might work since the description implies a lot of 
>wierd sounds that can carry info.  (though, remember, since Vargr
>can speak human languages, and vice versa, it should be, at least
>mostly, sounds a human can make)(.

Vargr always seem to sound like Scooby Doo when I play them.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 12:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Aug 15 11:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Origins of the X-Boat System
References: <3D5B1574.CC96C328@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3D5BF68D.5000807@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Roseberry wrote:
>>Now we know the real reason the network was set up.
> 
> 
> http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20020812/chinapost.html
> 
> Ah yes. The eternal persistence of death and taxes.
> How much you wanna bet they still have undelivered mail;)

Nothing at all...notice these were found dumped down an abandoned well...;-P

We had some mail carriers in Yonkers like that :-(


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 12:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Aug 15 11:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Traveller Mental Picture of the Day
References: <20020815182824.55023.qmail@web20417.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3D5BF737.3050907@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>
> Vargr always seem to sound like Scooby Doo when I play them.
> 
Ruh Roh!

Saw a place selling 'WWSD' dog collars the other day...;-)


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 13:03:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 12:03:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Vargr philology
Message-ID: <105.1a52e7aa.2a8d5494@aol.com>

I've just found the origins of the word "vargr" (from Tom Shippey's biography 
of Tolkien). 

Was its choice as a name down to serendipity, research or a good knowledge of 
Old Norse?

Just curious.

Charles

(Vargr, as I now know, is an Old Norse word meaning both "wolf" and "raider")

I addressed some cheerful chit-chat at the man opposite but was rewarded with 
grunt. I tried the man next to me but he just looked at the gentleman I had 
tried first and said "Do you know what he's talking about?" At this point I 
realised I was getting out my depth but the Dean stepped in and saved me, "Oh 
don't worry about it" he said, "They're mathematicians - we never talk to 
them."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 13:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Thu Aug 15 12:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style
In-Reply-To: <F96q8j0tFKWV5EWnZp7000053c7@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020815192125.54120.qmail@web11803.mail.yahoo.com>

> 
>    Why yes, Frankie, I would *certainly* appreciate
> a copy of the issue 108 
I would also like a copy, 
thanks.
Dan


=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 14:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Thu Aug 15 13:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F1669@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Okay, JR gets the "Hardest Vote to Record" award ;)
Jesse


> 
> While my first impression was to agree with you on the Beware
> typeface, vdub or newbrilliant, being less literal and more graphic in
> design, would both appear to be more amenable to a heavily graphic
> logo.
> 
> That being said, I'll also admit to a fondness for the appearance of
> qswitchax.  It is nice, readable and the underplayed
> descenders/ascenders keep it interesting.
> 
> Given that the Famille is an old, well-established and respected
> venture, you may want to consider more traditional typefaces.  The
> typefaces you are presently favoring might become as embarrassing as a
> Peter Max designed corporate logo would appear to today's eyes.
> 
> -- 
> JR Holmes
> jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 14:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Thu Aug 15 13:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F166A@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Hmmm, interesting idea.  I'll have to look at what that'll do to the cost...
Thanks for the input!
Jesse

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Damage169@cs.com [mailto:Damage169@cs.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 7:27 PM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
> 
> 
> Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com writes:
> 
> 
> 
> > Rrrriiiiiiight.  1.I don't have a font editor  2.I've never 
> edited a font 
> > before  3.I don't really have TIME to learn how to edit 
> fonts right now ;)  
> > 4.I'd kinda' like the stuff to be readable by mundanes  
> 5.BUT, maybe a few 
> > selected products in pure Vilani would be cool too!! ;D
> > 
> > Best,
> > Jesse
> > 
> 
> How about, front of shirt in English, back has Vilani? Or vice-versa.
> 
> Doug Grimes
> 
> 
> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
> multipart/alternative
>   text/plain (text body -- kept)
>   text/html
> ---
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 14:09:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Thu Aug 15 13:09:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F166B@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!
Jesse

 
> Les Bates writes:
> 
> 
> > Beware, followed by Goodtimes, followed by Vdub.
> > 
> > What font is Ditzie's Favorite?
> > 
> > 
> > Les
> > 
> 
> Why, an ele-font, of course.  (g,d, & rlh)   :)
> 
> Doug Grimes
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 14:11:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Thu Aug 15 13:11:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F166C@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Even more ROFLMAO!!!
Jesse

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Leslie Bates [mailto:lesbates@minn.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 8:36 PM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: RE: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
> 
> 
> "DeGraff, Jesse" <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> wrote:
> >You think I'm gonna' ask her?  Are you nuts?!?  
> >Last time I talked to her I was in the hospital 
> >for 3 months.  And that was wearing armor!  ;)
> >
> >Jesse
> 
> >> What font is Ditzie's Favorite?
> 
> "Ditzie!"
> 
> "Yes Uncle Dennis?"
> 
> "How many times do I and Uncle Hengie have to tell you to not blow up
> temporary employees and independant contractors?"
> 
> "Two thousand four hundred and seventy two."
> 
> That sounded about right to Dennis.
> 
> "Now be nice to Mr. DeGraff. Promise?"
> 
> Ditzie crossed her fingers behind her back.
> 
> "I promise, Uncle Dennis."
> 
> 
> Les ;)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 14:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Thu Aug 15 13:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F166D@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Hmmm, another interesting idea.  I've been through a ground-up corporate VI change, so I can certainly see it happening in the TU!
Jesse

> -----Original Message-----
> From: john.groth@us.army.mil [mailto:john.groth@us.army.mil]
> Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 1:39 AM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "DeGraff, Jesse" <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com>
> Date: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 11:08 pm
> Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
> 
> > Okay kiddies, you get to help design the chaos.  I'm trying to 
> > decide on the official Famille Spofulam logo font for the licensed 
> > merchandise I'm developing for sale.  Here's a page with the 
> > contestants so far:
> > 
> http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/famillespofulam/
> 
> For M:1100+ products, I'd go with vdub.
> 
> OTOH, for M:0-era products, I'm split between beware and 
> supersoulfighter.
> 
> At any rate, I would suggest using different fonts for 
> different eras; 
> this nicely mimics the periodic revamping of corporate logos to match 
> current esthetics.
> 
> <<snip>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 14:15:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Thu Aug 15 13:15:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F166E@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

I can arrange that :)
Jesse

> -----Original Message-----
> From: markc@peak.org [mailto:markc@peak.org]
> Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 8:20 AM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] Re: Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
> 
> 
> Jesse, I think "beware" is definitely the right choice.
> 
> BTW, I want your TrueType files for *all* those fonts. :^)
> 
>     - Mark C.
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 14:18:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Thu Aug 15 13:18:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F166F@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Truth be told, I have no idea where they came from :\  I'm assuming they were from Office 2k, FrontPage, Premiere, etc.  So I'm pretty sure posting them for download wouldn't be a Good Idea (tm).
Jesse

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jens Rydholm [mailto:jenry023@student.liu.se]
> Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 8:57 AM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
> 
> 
> On Thu, 15 Aug 2002 11:20:19 -0400
> "markc@peak.org" <markc@peak.org> wrote:
> 
> > Jesse, I think "beware" is definitely the right choice.
> > 
> > BTW, I want your TrueType files for *all* those fonts. :^)
> 
> As a matter of fact, so do I... and probably others on this list as
> well.
> 
> Unless impossible for copyright reasons, could you put them in your
> download area?
> 
> * Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
> | jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
> | ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
> * http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 14:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Thu Aug 15 13:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F166F@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Truth be told, I have no idea where they came from :\  I'm assuming they were from Office 2k, FrontPage, Premiere, etc.  So I'm pretty sure posting them for download wouldn't be a Good Idea (tm).
Jesse

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jens Rydholm [mailto:jenry023@student.liu.se]
> Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 8:57 AM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
> 
> 
> On Thu, 15 Aug 2002 11:20:19 -0400
> "markc@peak.org" <markc@peak.org> wrote:
> 
> > Jesse, I think "beware" is definitely the right choice.
> > 
> > BTW, I want your TrueType files for *all* those fonts. :^)
> 
> As a matter of fact, so do I... and probably others on this list as
> well.
> 
> Unless impossible for copyright reasons, could you put them in your
> download area?
> 
> * Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
> | jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
> | ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
> * http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 14:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Thu Aug 15 13:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020814152928.009dd310@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0208151342540.874-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>

On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Douglas Berry wrote:
>
> Oh, don't get me wrong - Iove rules.
                           ^^^^

Only after doing away with his father Saturn(Cronus),
by Iupiter.

;)

Rob


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 14:46:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Thu Aug 15 13:46:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20020806120321.46dfdc16@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <000101c2449c$de146260$0c0a0a0a@glidenet.com>

That's roughly the way I remember it!!!

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Douglas E. Berry
Sent: Tuesday, 06 August, 2002 12:03
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Cc: Kirsten M. Berry
Subject: Re: [TML] Silly Question

At 02:13 AM 8/6/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>Hi,
>
>This probably displays the depths of my ignorance, but can anybody give
me a
>description of how a unit's change of command ceremony goes?  I am
looking
>specifically for the US Navy's protocol, but any nation or service is
welcomed.

Well, from my point of view, an Army change of command ceremony (c.
1985)
consists of the following:

1. Polish brass.

2. Drop off dress greens at dry cleaners.

3. Hear that the order has been changed, we'll be in battle gear.

4. Curse about blowing $15 on dry cleaning.

5. Drop off good BDUs at dry cleaners.  (Good meaning these puppies will
never see the field, and are worn only for inspections.)

6. Pay some kid at the PX ten bucks to spit shine my jump boots.

7. Run to Ranger Joe's for clean TA-50 pieces.

8. Get haircut.

9. Practise marching.

10. Get assigned to be a roadgaurd again, due to lack of marching
ability.

11. Get inspected.

12. March to Brigade parade ground.

13. Stand in formation.

14. Old Bastard makes a speech.

15. Wonder what difference all this marching will make when the Soviets
come over the border.

16. Something involving the unit colors, but you can't see.

17. New Bastard makes a speech.  Officers love to make speeches.

18. Fall asleep at attention.

19. Wake up at Parade Rest.

20. March back to barracks, replace dart board picture of Old Bastard
with
New Bastard, get drunk.

(I'm in a silly mood today.)
-- 

Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

Animals who are not penguins can only wish they were.
-Chicago reader, 10/15/82
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 14:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Thu Aug 15 13:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Silly Question
In-Reply-To: <200208070000.MFJ02183@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <000201c2449e$282e26f0$0c0a0a0a@glidenet.com>

the sergeant major kept me and a couple of other guys in the 
rear of the formation.  we were supposed to watch out for 
people about to fall out, and as discreetly as possible, move 
forward and get them out of formation.

hot sun, standing in one place for a long time, etc...

==================================

Yes, I remember those days well...
Standing at attention or parade rest for more than an hour in ARIZONA
during the SUMMER! It was 115 degrees outside. Just WHAT were these
people thinking? Soldiers would drop, and were discretely dragged on
their heals to the rear of the formation. One unit had so many people
drop, you would swear they were human pins in some twisted game of
bowling.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 14:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 13:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <13.1003b9e5.2a8d6f2a@aol.com>

 >> You are forgiven (as if you need to ask me).  But I would never
 >> continue with a strategy, published or not, that has produced
 >> nothing but bare draws and significant losses in five wars.  I
 >> certainly wouldn't stand around passively waiting for the next
 >> attack -- that guarantees a loss. 
 >
 >How odd. The western allies were the attacked in WWI and they won.

Not the French.  They took same the view you do.  The allies won because the 
United States and Soviet Union were unreachable (in different ways), and 
therefore unbeatable once they ramped up production.  But even with this the 
allies and the United States almost lost anyway, and were losing until they 
took the offensive and forced Germany and Japan into defensive roles from 
which they were unable to escape.

 >>  >That, and using my lessons from over twenty years of serious research
 >>  >into military history.
 >> 
 >> So ... how are victories obtained?
 >
 >By not losing.

I'm sure that after 20 years you can be a little more explicative.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 15:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Thu Aug 15 14:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The big fleet debate
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEMDEDAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <000001c2449f$eca94400$0c0a0a0a@glidenet.com>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Terry Carlino
Sent: Monday, 05 August, 2002 21:50
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] The big fleet debate

>Yes; either remove the chemical warhead or replace it with a fusion
>warhead.  A chemical explosive makes little sense.  Even the standard
>missiles accelerate to 72 km/s in the first round -- putting a
>chemical explosive in them is a bit like putting a spring-loaded
>boxing glove on an anti-tank penetrator.
>
>
The only reason I can think of is to allow you to self destruct the
missile
if necessary.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost


_______________________________________________

Unless of course the missiles actually have proximity fuses.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 15:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 14:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <172.d0dae41.2a8d729e@aol.com>

 >>  >> That's no reason to surrender the instant Jewell is lost.
 >>  >> 
 >>  >> And there you go again, thinking strictly in terms of Zhodane on 
offense, 
 >>  >> Imperium always and forever on passive defense.
 >>  >
 >>  >Well, it's apparently been true historically, for whatever reason.
 >> 
 >> Hm.  Sounds like an opportunity for a player character admiral to
 >> turn things around. 
 >
 >And then lose his job and get stripped of all his titles for 
 >precipitating a general free-for-all with the Zhos instead of the 
 >controlled 'border disputes' that had been the case for the last few 
 >centuries.

So, the Zhodies are free to attack at will, while the Imperials are afraid of 
precipitating "border disputes".  Sounds like a policy tailor-made in 
Zhodane.  Maybe it is.

No, I wouldn't lose my job and be stripped of all my titles.  I'd resign, and 
I'd say why.  Loudly.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 15:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Thu Aug 15 14:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <E17bJb8-0007Wi-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <000101c244a0$7698d9a0$0c0a0a0a@glidenet.com>

> 
>Time-Travel is a huge no-no. Do I have >something against it? 

Sure I allow time travel in my universe.
Everyone travels FORWARD.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 15:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Aug 15 14:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
In-Reply-To: <F145NYxX60VJe2NrLaL0000e4cf@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D5CC354.15547.2B4BCA@localhost>

On 15 Aug 2002 at 14:10, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      Well, the UK did turn the US aside from Canada and the US finally 
> convinced the UK to withdraw from the Old Northwest (Michigan, Indiana, 
> Illinois, Ohio, etc.) as promised in the treaty that ended the Revolutionary 
> War.  There's a win-win for you.

Sort of. It was a loss for what later became Canada, which would've got 
most of the Great Lakes area and westwards - all or most of what is now 
north-central and north-west USA. The local indians also almost 
certainly 'lost' worse than they would've under british rule.

>      Rather poor at both, I'm afraid.  Militia, at the US variety,
> was horrible.  It was more of a social and/or civic group.  You
> joined to fit in with or get ahead in your community, like the
> Masons or Anglican church.  They'd defend their homes (maybe) but
> they wouldn't defend the next town, county, or state. 
>
>      Most of the '46-'48 landgrabs (some of our best) were done with
> either regular or irregular volunteers.  Doniphan's Thousand is a
> good example of the irregular type, just a bunch of wild boys joined
> up for an adventure.  The state contingents sent to Tyler's and
> Scott's armies were not the actual state militia formations, but
> rather volunteers from the both pre-existing militia groups and the
> general population formed into new, for-this-war-only, regiments. 

Still a form of state milita, as opposed to a federal funded 
professional army. It's funny that this sort of regiment was okay, but 
'mercenary' units weren't, given that the former were effectively a 
mercenary unit anyway.

>      Getting back to Our Olde Game, assuming both the Imperial and
> Consulate overall war aims (hold onto the Marches & evict
> colonies/form buffer zone), I'd say BOTH sides won Frontier Wars
> Three, Four, and Five.  You could even make an argument for the
> Imperium winning numbers One and Two.  After all, the Zhos didn't
> take advantage of a civil war wracked Imperium to set the new border
> somewhere in the Corridor Sector. 

I think the Imperium lost FWs one and two, because they were booted 
from territory they claimed as theirs, and AFAICT they had no goals 
aside from resisting attack. Actually that lack of clear goal could 
well be why they lost, just as the lack of any goal other than 'repel 
the Imperial Scum at any cost' late-war policy was one of the 
contributing factors in the Solomani loss of the Rim War. I think the 
Zhos stopping when they did had more to do with having achieved their 
goals and having the sense/caution not to get over-extended in a mad 
dash corewards that could well have left them wrong-footed in a general 
started by a panicked Imperial core.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 15:19:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Thu Aug 15 14:19:38 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
In-Reply-To: <20805.143023.3i7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <000201c244a1$8fe66660$0c0a0a0a@glidenet.com>

>>In real life, the Army saw fit to conduct a psychological 
>>evaluation, and on the commander's recommendation, I was sent 
>>to sniper school.  Later, when I became a software 
>>consultant...
_______________________________________________
Please tell us where you live, so we can all make sure that you are not
our neighbor.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 15:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug 15 14:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
Message-ID: <200208152127.MVU00119@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Shawn R Sears says
>Please tell us where you live, so we can all make sure that 
>you are not our neighbor.

Actually, if you've been to either the Army or Marine Sniper 
training, I would regard you as less likely to do something 
stupid with a rifle than almost anyone else.  I don't believe 
the selection process (or the dedication necessary to 
graduate) is favorable to either the "really stupid" or 
the "really crazy".

It runs contrary to what I often see in roleplaying - the 
person with the high gun skill is often the first to use it - 
and get in a lot of trouble.  Go figure.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 15:30:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Aug 15 14:30:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <13.1003b9e5.2a8d6f2a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D5CC60E.782.35F127@localhost>

On 15 Aug 2002 at 16:55, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>  >> You are forgiven (as if you need to ask me).  But I would never
>  >> continue with a strategy, published or not, that has produced
>  >> nothing but bare draws and significant losses in five wars.  I
>  >> certainly wouldn't stand around passively waiting for the next
>  >> attack -- that guarantees a loss. 
>  >
>  >How odd. The western allies were the attacked in WWI and they won.
> 
> Not the French.  They took same the view you do.  The allies won because the 
> United States and Soviet Union were unreachable (in different ways), and 
> therefore unbeatable once they ramped up production.  But even with this the 
> allies and the United States almost lost anyway, and were losing until they 
> took the offensive and forced Germany and Japan into defensive roles from 
> which they were unable to escape.

World War One, not World War Two. And on tactical - strategic level 
Germany nearly won WWI by adopting a fairly defensive posture and 
encouraging the western allies to attack. In WWII the Soviet Union wore 
the Germans out by retreating (generally considered a defensive move) 
until they were worn out (and the Soviets had run out of room). Same in 
the Napoleonic Wars.

As WWII, the French defense was weak due to poor use of their armour 
and a defensive line that was flawed for mainly political reasons 
(can't offend our friends by putting them on the outside of a barbed 
wire fence).
 
> I'm sure that after 20 years you can be a little more explicative.

My mil-history studies are only about 15 years old - Doug's got a bit 
of a head start on me.
-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 15:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Aug 15 14:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
In-Reply-To: <200208152127.MVU00119@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029447384.1653.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:

> Actually, if you've been to either the Army or Marine Sniper 
> training, I would regard you as less likely to do something 
> stupid with a rifle than almost anyone else.

Well, being selected for sniper training does generally imply that the people
doing the selection think you have the mentality to be able to look closely at
people and then shoot them, which is one of those mental traits that make other
people nervous.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 15:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Aug 15 14:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <172.d0dae41.2a8d729e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D5CC804.14711.3D990A@localhost>

On 15 Aug 2002 at 17:09, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> So, the Zhodies are free to attack at will, while the Imperials are afraid of 
> precipitating "border disputes".  Sounds like a policy tailor-made in 
> Zhodane.  Maybe it is.

No, the Imperium could start a 'border dispute' if it wanted, but a 
serious move into Zho territory could well trigger something neither 
side wants. Remeber that the Zhos had actually been in that regoin of 
space well before the Imperium, and their side of the broder probably 
isn't quite so much of a quaint backwater as the Imperial side. Thus 
they'll tend to be a lot more sensitive to invasion.

Raiding and broder adjustments are one thing, movement on and past 
Chronor are quite another.

For that reason I think that if the Zhos had got what they wanted in 
the FFW if they didn't offer to return Rhylanor and allow the Jewells 
to be allied to the Imperium they could well have been in another, more 
major, war with the Imperium in the near future, as taking a couple of 
subsectors could well provoke outrage in the core.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 15:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Aug 15 14:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <3D5CC60E.782.35F127@localhost>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029447665.6561.ajackson@ping>

Rupert Boleyn writes:

> World War One, not World War Two.

WWI was a war notable for the imbalance between attack and defense.  Due to the
mechanics of force concentration in Traveller, unless you posit _very_
effective ground batteries (which one might; buried meson sites can be pretty
tough) the fact that in Traveller it's very hard to intercept an enemy fleet
means that the balance tends to favor the offense.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 15:45:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dave W.)
Date: Thu Aug 15 14:45:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Sunburst
Message-ID: <000c01c244a5$06161bc0$6401a8c0@ntelos.com>

Hi everyone!

My 1st post!=20

Does anyone know of where I could get a graphic of the Imperial Sunburst =
and the various Scout branch insignia in Illustrator format? I want to =
make some of the forms in my campaign more "official" looking. :-)

Regards and Thanks!

-Uncle Buster


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 16:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 15:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Anti-MIME test, ignore
Message-ID: <13.100580e9.2a8d7f55@cs.com>

test


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 16:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Aug 15 15:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Vilani Chess
In-Reply-To: <E17fMna-000DYG-0X@anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net>
References: <20020815131503.28324.59281.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <E17fMna-000DYG-0X@anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net>
Message-ID: <20020816081405.B26933@freeman.little-possums.net>

rob@glisten.demon.co.uk wrote:
> That's why extra pieces are brought into play every now and
> again. Having said that, I just skimmed the rules when I read them
> today (rather than reading them properly) so there is a fair chance
> I missed something when I originally wrote them....

Probably; you made it optional to bring in extra pieces, rather than
mandatory.  The game would never end in stalemate if you had to bring
in an extra piece every 50 turns whether you liked it or not.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 16:25:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Thu Aug 15 15:25:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockheads Unite!
In-Reply-To: <12e.15b8a75b.2a881d23@aol.com>
References: <12e.15b8a75b.2a881d23@aol.com>
Message-ID: <02081518285500.00972@linux>

> Depends on what you mean by "a lot".  Consider trade amounting to 0.4% (a
> number cited earlier) of a 10 billion population world's productivity. 
> Seen from the perspective of an individual trader with a 400 ton merchant
> ship then that's an awful lot of goods being flown around, but as a
> percentage of that world's economy it's not world-breaking.

	I still don't understand where the value of .4% is coming from. The only 
ruleset that I know that specifically covers interstellar trade, and not just 
generating cargoes for pc's ,  is clear in its calculations that a class A 
starport will generate offworld trade anywhere from 0 to 50 % increase in a 
world's economy depending on the number of trade partners it has. Lower rated 
starports generate less, but still significant amounts for ports over 'd' .


> The planet generation system is simply random.  It generates arbitrary
> the way they did.  This may lead to interesting game plots, but it cannot
> bear the level of scrutiny and examination that is being given it.

	I believe that the physical portion is ok, although I would use atmosphere 
as the dm for hydro% and not size. Low pressure allows fluids to boil off. 
The population and tech ( which also includes starport type ) is where the 
greatest problems lie. I have an idea on how to fix it. As soon as I type up 
a paper, I will post it here for reveiw.

( Actually, I tend to use starform or accrete for physic aspects of a system.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 16:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug 15 15:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <20020815222919.404.qmail@web20415.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Shawn R Sears" <ShawnSears@telocity.com>
>>>In real life, the Army saw fit to conduct a psychological 
>>>evaluation, and on the commander's recommendation, I was sent 
>>>to sniper school.  Later, when I became a software 
>>>consultant...
>_______________________________________________
>Please tell us where you live, so we can all make sure that you are 
>not our neighbor.

>Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 17:27:02 -0400
>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...

>Shawn R Sears says
>>Please tell us where you live, so we can all make sure that 
>>you are not our neighbor.
>
>Actually, if you've been to either the Army or Marine Sniper 
>training, I would regard you as less likely to do something 
>stupid with a rifle than almost anyone else.  I don't believe 
>the selection process (or the dedication necessary to 
>graduate) is favorable to either the "really stupid" or 
>the "really crazy".

No one's worried about what you'll do with a gun, John.  Shawn just
doesn't want any software consultants around, and sometimes I can't
blame him.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 16:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Thu Aug 15 15:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style
In-Reply-To: <20020815192125.54120.qmail@web11803.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <002501c2454a$61127050$1001a8c0@sauron>

Daniel Tackett wrote :
> >
> >    Why yes, Frankie, I would *certainly* appreciate
> > a copy of the issue 108
> I would also like a copy,
> thanks.
> Dan

I have sent the text of the article to Dan, but I don't seem to have
seen the post to which Dan was replying.

If it was you, let me know so I can send the article.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 16:31:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Aug 15 15:31:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
References: <ML-2.3.1029447384.1653.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3D5C2B6E.2060603@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> John T. Kwon writes:
> 
> 
>>Actually, if you've been to either the Army or Marine Sniper 
>>training, I would regard you as less likely to do something 
>>stupid with a rifle than almost anyone else.
> 
> 
> Well, being selected for sniper training does generally imply that the people
> doing the selection think you have the mentality to be able to look closely at
> people and then shoot them, which is one of those mental traits that make other
> people nervous.

Key difference: "look closely at people and shoot them, ONLY WHEN 
ORDERED to do so..."

I'd MUCH rather live next to a trained sniper than some untrained yahoo 
with a 30-06. Very much, having *lived* next to such yahoos.

"Happy <hic> New Year!! <BOOM> <hic>"

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 16:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Thu Aug 15 15:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Motown Keyboard Kill
In-Reply-To: <001901c24487$2cd05640$e4c187d9@fg>
Message-ID: <002601c2454a$f25d4350$1001a8c0@sauron>

Nick Wright wrote :
> Frankie (Munden) wrote:
> 
> "I know Loren, Martin and John,    ...."
> 
> Keyboard Kill, Sir.

I have to admit that this kill was completely unintended. 
So unintended, in fact, that I still don't get it. 
Can you let me in on the joke, please?

Frankie


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 16:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Aug 15 15:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E0D@USCHM203>

>Well, being selected for sniper training does generally imply that the
>people
>doing the selection think you have the mentality to be able to look
>>>closely at
>people and then shoot them, which is one of those mental traits that >>make
other
>people nervous.

Why is that different from any serviceman? Every Marine, from cook to
commandant, is expected to use his weapon to kill individual enemies if
neccessary. Same goes for Army infantry.
The biggest asset for a sniper is not cold-bloodedness or the will to kill,
but an unnatural amount of patience, the ability to refrain from moving so
much as an eyebrow for umpteen hours, and of course a steady aim.
I sure as hell couldn't do it. Just give me my Dragon and show me where the
tanks are.
In my experience snipers are very calm, easygoing, and fairly mellow. Not
wild-eyed Whitmans and Oswalds.
And as long as we're dispelling stereotypes, here's a profile of the average
Marine infantryman:

5'6" to 5'9". Very few hulking giants, even in Recon. 160 lbs is about
average, though my squad had a range from 102(not kidding, my bunkmate,
little guy from Paterson, NJ) to 180. 180 lbs is prety big when there's not
an ounce of fat.
The biggest guys tend to be put in mortar platoons, and are generally not
suited to be riflemen...they make bigger targets, and often are simply not
as agile or fast as smaller guys.
Very few musclebound types. Average build is stocky or wiry, though from
sheer intensive training will be stronger than a similarly built civilian.
As far as personalities and other intangibles, just about all had a very
healthy, if often frat-boyish, sense of humor. Practical jokes were rampant.
Friendships were about as strong as I've ever seen beyond childhood friends.
Education-wise, at least half of the enlisted men I knew had some college.
Most NCOs at Staff Sgt and above had college degrees.
As far as attitudes on combat, only a handful of idiots talked about it as
if it was something to look forward too. The majority had a serious
business-like attitude, privately questioned their ability to kill another
human, and generally hoped they wouldn't panic or "let down the side" if the
balloon went up.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 16:38:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (markc@peak.org)
Date: Thu Aug 15 15:38:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Imperial Sunburst
Message-ID: <39020-220028415223730456@M2W098.mail2web.com>

Dave W=2E <fallout@ntelos=2Enet> writes:

> Does anyone know of where I could get a graphic of the Imperial
> Sunburst and the various Scout branch insignia in Illustrator
> format? I want to make some of the forms in my campaign more
> "official" looking=2E :-)

The good news is that I have all those items=2E

The bad news is that I designed them under contract to SJ Games
and, technically, all the artwork belongs to Steve Jackson & Co=2E

If you can talk Loren, et=2Eal=2E into granting permission, I'll be
glad to make the files available=2E

    - Mark C=2E
      Shoestring Graphics & Printing




--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 16:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Aug 15 15:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <20020815163640.3552.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020815163640.3552.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020816084602.C26933@freeman.little-possums.net>

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>  You might also try some sports that require quick decision-making
> and team play, like basketball or paintball.

I'm not too bad at netball and volleyball.  However, in such games I
am constantly aware of where everyone else is, and know a lot more
about my own abilites relative to the other participants, and
well-practiced in the reflexes and tactics necessary.

In a roleplaying game, I only know what the GM tells me; I am starved
of information that my character would have, some of it at an
instinctive level.  Most that would be immediately obvious to anyone
actually present in the situation.

e.g, a dialogue very close to an event in one play session:

GM: "Quick: who are you firing at?  You've only got about a second"
Me: "I don't know -- what can I see?"
GM: "Too late; you feel a hammer-blow in your shoulder almost
immediately followed by what feels like a giant's fist in your chest."

I used to make what I thought were reasonable assumptions about what
my character knows about the situation.  Almost always, those
assumptions turned out to be disastrously false.  Maybe I am very poor
at coming up with "reasonable" assumptions, or maybe I've had
shockingly bad GMs.  Either way, using time pressure to remove what
little opportunity there was to get even an approximate feel for the
situation from my character's point of view is going to make things a
*lot* worse.

Roleplaying is not just acting.  There are far more opportunities for
world-view mismatches between the participants, and such mismatches
are greatly more damaging.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 16:51:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug 15 15:51:42 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
Message-ID: <200208152250.MVX01806@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Glenn M. Goffin says
>No one's worried about what you'll do with a gun, John.  
>Shawn just doesn't want any software consultants around, and 
>sometimes I can't blame him.

Well, there's a reason I call my representative from the 
consulting company "my pimp".  He even wears those pointy 
Italian dress shoes and a really nice suit.

Which makes the typical software consultant a ....

I often find myself doing it "the client's way" rather than 
mine, and faking that I'm really enjoying it.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 16:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 15:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] EABA & Traveller
Message-ID: <20020815.185102.-170149.0.Knightsky@juno.com>


On Thu, 15 Aug 2002 10:49:16 -0500 Greg Porter <btrc@BTRC.NET> writes:
> Stephen,
> Catching your TML thread 15 months after the fact, I can proudly 
> announce
> that EABA is now available. More than that, I talked with Marc 
> Miller at
> GenCon, and he is not averse to an EABA Traveller. 

Woo hoo!


                                            - Perry

"I think it's time we blow this scene...
Get everybody and their stuff together...
Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"




________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 17:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Aug 15 16:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockheads Unite!
In-Reply-To: <02081518285500.00972@linux>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029453016.7096.ajackson@ping>

richard honeycutt writes:

>      I still don't understand where the value of .4% is coming from.

Far Trader, mostly.  Which should probably have had some formulae altered to
produce slightly different trade patterns, but oh well.

Bear in mind, a base pop-A (10 billion) TL-F world has a GWP on the order of
100 trillion credits; if one assumes a typical cargo value of Cr 10,000 per
dton, trade at 10% of GWP per annum is about a billion tons per year, or a bit
over 100,000 dtons per hour.  If we assume that the average bulk trader is a
2,000 dton ship with a bit over 1,000 dtons of cargo capacity, that's one bulk
trader leaving every 40 seconds or so; with an average time in port of 3-4
days, there would be on the order of 10,000 such bulk traders in orbit at any
given time.  Is that how active you really imagine a high-pop starport to be?

>      I believe that the physical portion is ok, although I would use
> atmosphere  as the dm for hydro% and not size.

Basically, the physical portion might be OK if you limited size 4 worlds to
thin atmospheres and didn't allow size 2-3 worlds more than trace atmospheres.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 17:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Thu Aug 15 16:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] muter mutter mutter
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHKEDHINAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Well, I got all the courses I wanted ... none of the
classes though.

jml
proud owner of the classes ... and final ...
schedule from hell

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 17:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 16:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
Message-ID: <a6.2abe80d9.2a8d99cb@aol.com>

 >     Who won and who lost?  Couldn't both sides "win" a war, that is 
 >generally meet their war aims?

Well, defined that way, sure -- if you don't care what the aims are.  Let's 
see, I'm reading from Supplement 11 .... In the first war, the Zhodani 
"expelled Imperial settlements from Zhodani territories beyond the Spinward 
Marches Sector boundaries", and "Ultimately, armistice lines were drawn, 
ceding portions of the Cronor subsector to the Zhodani."  In the second war, 
"Alkhalikoi accepted the dangerous responsibility of ceding more territory to 
the Zhodani AND [emphasis added] of releasing perhaps (sic) a dozen systems 
previously incorporated into the Imperium, rendering them independent."  In 
the third war, "ultimately, an armistice was reached which ceded systems to 
the Zhodani in the Jewell subsector and allowed Zhodani occupation of several 
in the Querion subsector.  Moreover, the the Imperium withdrew several 
parsecs from their previous positions ... With the Zhodani on their doorstep, 
Retinae applied for, and was granted, disunion from the Imperium."  In the 
fourth war, " ... the Imperium lost another world, and was forced to accept 
joint tenancy of Esalin ... but it regained two worlds lost to the Sword 
Worlds [The Sword Worlds!]".  Now, you can say that the Imperium met its war 
aims in all these retreats and withdrawals and cedings, and thus say they won 
-- but I think that's stretching the meaning of the word "win" too far.  To 
me it sounds like a losing streak.  Personally, if I were in charge, and I 
were to look at this 500 year history of retreat in the face of a 
technologically inferior opponent, I'd have to ask "What are we doing wrong 
here?" and then fix it.

 >War is politics by other means, that's 
 >why generals and admirals usually don't decide grand strategy.  They can't 
 >be trusted with it.

In a situation where communication with the capital takes 12 months, they 
have to be.  They _are_ entrusted with grand strategy, by default.

 >    What has the Imperial grand strategy been during this period?  I think 
 >we can all agree that the strategy has changed over the centuries, but I 
 >also think we can agree that part of that strategy has been to maintain an 
 >Imperial presence in the Marches.  Keeping that goal in mind, the Imperium 
 >has "won" every Frontier War.

Well, then, all I can say is how could they lose?  Even if the Imperium were 
forced all the way back to Mora and Trin, they would still meet this "goal".  
But I would have to say that such a goal originates in Zhodane, not the 
Imperium.

 >     In one of your earlier posts you mentioned something along the lines 
of 
 >"Cronor used to be Imperial, I want it back."  When do you want it back?  
In 
 >700?  900?  1105?  The Imperium lost that world during the first two 
 >frontier wars, the next chance to "liberate" it would be 350 years later.  
 >That's over TEN human generations.  Do you really think there is huge 
 >segment of the population on Cronor pining for the long ago days of 
Imperial 
 >rule?  Three centuries time during which the Thought Police have worked?

Well now you're talking about something besides military action.  The quick 
answer is "Did the Zhodani ask them if they wanted to be Zhodani?", and if 
not, then why should the Imperium?  But that's a different topic.

 >    You've boasted about how your Spinward Marches fleet can win the war 
 >against their Consulate opponents.

I don't know about "boasting", but yes, given the conditions I thought were 
in effect.  And I still think so, adamantly.  But I would like to remind you 
that (as far as I can remember) I've always added, "And I'd love to find 
out.", me being a virgin and you being professionals and all.  One person 
wrote in to propose just such a game, and I said yes, but no-one else did.

 >Care to explain how you'll then win the 
 >peace?  How are you going to control the "lost" Imperial colony of Cronor 
 >after three centuries of "Zhodani-fication"?

Isn't there such a thing as "three centuries of Imperial-ification"?  You 
say, I say.

 >    So, after the first two Frontier Wars, do you seriously believe the 
 >Imperium wanted all those lost colonies back?

"The Imperium" is a fictional fantasy entity.  It wants what we, the players 
(or maybe Mark Miller), make it want.

 >    "So ... how are victories obtained?"
 >
 >    Victory in battle or victory in war?  If you're asking about victory in 
 >war, it's obtained by meeting your strategic war aims.  Don't forget, 
 >winning every battle isn't the way that particular job gets done.  Ever 
hear 
 >of Vietnam?

Yep, sure did.  The United States government refused to take on North Vietnam 
in its own territory and other territories were it was operating, and then 
when the chips were down totally abandoned the government of South Vietnam 
and left it to be overrun.  North Vietnam didn't win -- the United States 
walked away.  Seems to me that many are pressing the Imperium to follow the 
same pattern.  They don't have to.

When I was in the Navy I spoke at length to one of the pilots who had served 
in Vietnam.  He said that before they could perform a bombing run that they 
would have to submit their flightplan to NATO for review by several member 
nations, and that if they flew this flight plan they invariably found that 
the NVA had aligned their air defenses to exactly anticipate the planned run. 
 He said that they learned to file flight plans and then fly their missions 
differently, because then the air defense wasn't lined up to meet them.  He 
stated that it was his opinion that the French were passing along these 
flight plans to the NVA.

I think the Imperium, as represented here, has a similar problem.

By the way, I appreciate your civility.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 18:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug 15 17:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E0D@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <B9818EF1.69DAB%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/15/02 3:36 PM, Hurrel, Brian at brian.hurrel@eds.com wrote:

> And as long as we're dispelling stereotypes, here's a profile of the aver=
age
> Marine infantryman:
>=20
> 5'6" to 5'9". Very few hulking giants, even in Recon. 160 lbs is about
> average, though my squad had a range from 102(not kidding, my bunkmate,
> little guy from Paterson, NJ) to 180. 180 lbs is prety big when there's n=
ot
> an ounce of fat.

Curious.  I am 5'10" and was about average for an infantryman when I was in
(1980s).  We have a few short fellows, a few big ones. A 5'6" male is
usually short enough these days to attract comment, assuming he is less tha=
n
about 40 years of age.

According to the department of Health and Human Services, the Average
American male is 5' 9.1" tall (The average female is 5' 3.7").  Doing some
research, I find that the average US soldier was 5'7" --In the Spanish
American war.  I suspect that the average soldier today is slightly above
the national average.  About 5'10 for males.  I don't remember Marines bein=
g
that much smaller than us Army pukes.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 18:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Aug 15 17:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockheads Unite!
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1029453016.7096.ajackson@ping>
References: <02081518285500.00972@linux> <ML-2.3.1029453016.7096.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020816100225.A27248@freeman.little-possums.net>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> with an average time in port of 3-4 days, there would be on the
> order of 10,000 such bulk traders in orbit at any given time.  Is
> that how active you really imagine a high-pop starport to be?

I expect quite a few more 10k-100k bulk freighters, and only a few
thousand ships in orbit at any given time.  But yes, that's about how
busy I expect it to be, actually a bit more.

I actually expect there to be many starports though.  Just as any
large and rich nation has dozens of ports and airports of various
sizesand purposes, I expect a rich and populous system to have dozens
of spaceports and downports.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 18:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug 15 17:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
In-Reply-To: <200208152250.MVX01806@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B9818F55.69DAC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/15/02 3:50 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> Well, there's a reason I call my representative from the
> consulting company "my pimp".  He even wears those pointy
> Italian dress shoes and a really nice suit.
>=20
> Which makes the typical software consultant a ....
>=20
> I often find myself doing it "the client's way" rather than
> mine, and faking that I'm really enjoying it.
> ________________

You'll appreciate one of my favorite demotivators.  See:
http://us.st5.yimg.com/store4.yimg.com/I/demotivators_1697_482501

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 18:04:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 17:04:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
Message-ID: <15a.1284a6d1.2a8d9b5f@aol.com>

 >Does a downport
 >serve as a hub? If so, why? If I am a factory owner and I need parts
 >regularly shipped to me from Regina, why would I want to travel halfway
 >around the world to pick up goods at the downport that could have been
 >picked up in orbit?

Taxes, immigration / emmigration control, customs, safety inspections, law 
enforcement.  Also, while it may be advantageous to drop stuff from orbit, it 
may be more advantageous for ships that are picking up stuff to know where to 
go to start looking.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 18:09:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Aug 15 17:09:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
In-Reply-To: <a6.2abe80d9.2a8d99cb@aol.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029456528.3628.ajackson@ping>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:

> losing streak.  Personally, if I were in charge, and I  were to look at this
> 500 year history of retreat in the face of a  technologically inferior
> opponent, I'd have to ask "What are we doing wrong  here?" and then fix it.

Well, the Zhodani may not have been technologically inferior for all that long.
They were less affected by the long night, and might have actually been on
average higher-tech in the early wars.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 18:11:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 17:11:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day
Message-ID: <193.b911f76.2a8d9ca1@aol.com>

 >Hasn't Gvegh been described as sounding like an "asthmatic dog 
 >coughing"?  That might work since the description implies a lot of 
 >wierd sounds that can carry info.  (though, remember, since Vargr can 
 >speak human languages, and vice versa, it should be, at least mostly, 
 >sounds a human can make)

Dogs can hear sounds a human can't.  Can they make such sounds?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 18:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Thu Aug 15 17:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
In-Reply-To: <20020815214506.9307.24549.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentra
 l.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020815170946.00b87008@mailhost.efn.org>

On Thu, 15 Aug 2002 17:27:02 -0400, "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:

>It runs contrary to what I often see in roleplaying - the
>person with the high gun skill is often the first to use it -
>and get in a lot of trouble.  Go figure.

That's because the _player_ of the character with the high gun skill didn't 
have to work for it, and in the process learn all the other important stuff 
that goes with the ability - including when NOT to use it.

It's kind of like "script kiddiez" who download pre-packaged virus kits, 
tweak a few fields and then set them loose Because They Can.  Most haven't 
a clue as to the mindset of an experienced programmer.  (The sad thing is, 
a lot of them seem to think they do.)



--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 18:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 17:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <2d.21aebda9.2a8da04e@aol.com>

 >>  >> That's no reason to surrender the instant Jewell is lost.
 >>  >>
 >>  >> And there you go again, thinking strictly in terms of Zhodane on 
 >> offense,
 >>  >> Imperium always and forever on passive defense.
 >>  >
 >>  >Well, it's apparently been true historically, for whatever reason.
 >>
 >>Hm.  Sounds like an opportunity for a player character admiral to turn 
things
 >>around.
 >
 >Remember MacArthur!

Indeed, that is exactly who I was thinking of.  And if North Korea ever uses 
a nuclear weapon anywhere on us or South Korea there will be a lot of 
recrimination regarding his dismissal for insubordination.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 18:33:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Aug 15 17:33:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020815170946.00b87008@mailhost.efn.org>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029457917.2085.ajackson@ping>

Kelly St.Clair writes:
> 
> >It runs contrary to what I often see in roleplaying - the
> >person with the high gun skill is often the first to use it -
> >and get in a lot of trouble.  Go figure.
> 
> That's because the _player_ of the character with the high gun skill didn't
>  have to work for it, and in the process learn all the other important
> stuff  that goes with the ability - including when NOT to use it.

Actually, no, it isn't.  It has more to do with the fact that characters are
effectively 'tools' in many games, and if all you've got is a hammer, most
problems look like nails.

Truth is, the concept of someone being skilled with weapons and _not_ being
more likely to use the weapons is probably more of an aberration from a
historical standpoint than the typical gamer attitude. Historically (and, for
that matter, in the modern world outside of the first world), people with
weapons and the training to use them tend to use those weapons.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 18:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 17:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <83.1f352cbb.2a8da303@aol.com>

>> TC needs to work on character names. Would you believe there's a Colonel
>> Strokov?
>> 
>> 
>> Les
>> 
>
>Just so long as there's no Colonel Lingus.

Or A seaman named Stanes . . . 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 18:37:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Thu Aug 15 17:37:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day
In-Reply-To: <193.b911f76.2a8d9ca1@aol.com>
References: <193.b911f76.2a8d9ca1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <p04330107b981f94cd420@[143.232.119.186]>

At 8:09 PM -0400 8/15/02, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
>  >Hasn't Gvegh been described as sounding like an "asthmatic dog
>  >coughing"?  That might work since the description implies a lot of
>  >wierd sounds that can carry info.  (though, remember, since Vargr can
>  >speak human languages, and vice versa, it should be, at least mostly,
>  >sounds a human can make)
>
>Dogs can hear sounds a human can't.  Can they make such sounds?

Maybe.  Though they presumably don't make so many that a human has 
too much difficulty following Vargr languages.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 18:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Thu Aug 15 17:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
In-Reply-To: <83.1f352cbb.2a8da303@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208151738030.25453-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

> >> TC needs to work on character names. Would you believe there's a Colonel
> >> Strokov?
> >
> >Just so long as there's no Colonel Lingus.

Equal time is important!
**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 18:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Thu Aug 15 17:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] World Queries
References: <20020815170345.86776.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3D5C4903.4030504@yarranet.net.au>

Paul Walker wrote:

>>I have several worlds that I was wondering if there
>>are landgrabs for.  Also, if anyone knows of any
>>official information for any of these worlds, I
>>would appreciate that also.


Try
http://www.seemann.ms/worlds.htm
for official information.

Phill
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/traveller/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 18:41:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug 15 17:41:47 2002
Subject: [TML] The Limits of Imperial Intervention
Message-ID: <200208160038.MWB00587@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Was just reading about the applicability of a 1.3 micron DF 
overtone laser with a 5 meter mirror and 14 MW power input 
for ground attack.  Apparently, it would excel at attacking 
anything down to ground level not concealed by clouds.  The 
Earth's atmosphere is apparently no hindrance to a laser 
operating at that wavelength (unlike the typical DF laser, 
which has a very short range in atmosphere).

Apparently the laser's optics also excel at final target 
aiming and identification for ground attack.

Mental picture of Saddam Hussein going outside on a balcony 
for a celebration.  Suddenly disappearing in a boom and 
flash.  Minimal civilian casualties, and an interesting 
message to any successors.  No real evidence, either (no 
captured assassins, no spent shell casings).

When the Tigress shows up, and the Imperium is wroth with a 
particular personage, would it be suicide to step into plain 
view?  Rather than use all of her mighty weaponry, and 
wreaking massive damage on a city (or even the whole planet), 
would it be possible for the Tigress to have a specialized 
assassination laser?  
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 18:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Thu Aug 15 17:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1029456528.3628.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1029456528.3628.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <p04330108b981fb0a3d06@[143.232.119.186]>

In looking at Zho motivation in the frontier wars, one thing has 
struck me is that everyone seems to be looking for the _one_ 
motivation that is ascribed as lasting unchanged for centuries.  It 
is quite possible that the motivation has drifter or changed over 
time (or is about to change).  It is also likely that, within the 
consulate, there are different factions with different views.....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 18:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug 15 17:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020815170946.00b87008@mailhost.efn.org>
References: <5.1.1.6.0.20020815170946.00b87008@mailhost.efn.org>
Message-ID: <m3bs83hbql.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org> writes:
> 
> That's because the _player_ of the character with the high gun skill
> didn't have to work for it, and in the process learn all the other
> important stuff that goes with the ability--including when NOT to
> use it.

Well, and the fact that the _player_ doesn't face real repercussions
when his _character_ is shot at.  Much as in a FPS players charge into
gunfire, knowing that they probably won't die, so too do players in
RPGs act much more brashly than they would in real life.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The fact that we have bodies is the oldest joke there is.  --C.S. Lewis

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 18:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Aug 15 17:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The Limits of Imperial Intervention
In-Reply-To: <200208160038.MWB00587@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029458899.4143.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> Was just reading about the applicability of a 1.3 micron DF 
> overtone laser with a 5 meter mirror and 14 MW power input 
> for ground attack.

Heh.  Pretty large device, that; beam diffraction would be about 1/4 million or
about 3" from a 200 mile orbit, which would limit its applicability against
hardened targets of any type, but 14 MW is certainly overkill on personell.

> Mental picture of Saddam Hussein going outside on a balcony 
> for a celebration.  Suddenly disappearing in a boom and 
> flash.  Minimal civilian casualties, and an interesting 
> message to any successors.  No real evidence, either (no 
> captured assassins, no spent shell casings).

Well, there's this big laser up in orbit someone's been firing, which would not
exactly be a challenge for anyone monitoring such things to notice.
> 
> When the Tigress shows up, and the Imperium is wroth with a 
> particular personage, would it be suicide to step into plain 
> view?  Rather than use all of her mighty weaponry, and 
> wreaking massive damage on a city (or even the whole planet), 
> would it be possible for the Tigress to have a specialized 
> assassination laser?  

Not sure how specialized it needs to be.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 18:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 17:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Imperial Sunburst
Message-ID: <98.2a825350.2a8da65e@aol.com>

>> Does anyone know of where I could get a graphic of the Imperial
>> Sunburst and the various Scout branch insignia in Illustrator
>> format? I want to make some of the forms in my campaign more
.> "official" looking=2E :-)
>
>The good news is that I have all those items=2E
>
>The bad news is that I designed them under contract to SJ Games
>and, technically, all the artwork belongs to Steve Jackson & Co=2E
>
>If you can talk Loren, et=2Eal=2E into granting permission, I'll be
>glad to make the files available=2E


Send a request to lkw@io.com, and I'll forward it to the proper authorities. 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 18:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug 15 17:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The Limits of Imperial Intervention
Message-ID: <200208160058.MWB01944@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Anthony Jackson says
>John T. Kwon writes:
>> Was just reading about the applicability of a 1.3 micron 
>>DF overtone laser with a 5 meter mirror and 14 MW power 
>>input for ground attack.
>
>Heh.  Pretty large device, that; beam diffraction would be 
>about 1/4 million or about 3" from a 200 mile orbit, which 
>would limit its applicability against hardened targets of 
>any type, but 14 MW is certainly overkill on personell.
>
Apparently one of two proposed configurations for the Space 
Based Laser, and capable of destroying any current model of 
missile booster during boost phase in a few seconds of 
firing.  Missile skins are apparently quite thin, and making 
them thicker really degrades their performance, especially 
range.

>Well, there's this big laser up in orbit someone's been 
>firing, which would not exactly be a challenge for anyone 
>monitoring such things to notice.

Maybe it would be a powerful psychological weapon if it was 
well-known.  One of the proposals is a 24-satellite SBL 
setup.  Near 100% coverage of the whole world at any time.  
Such a weapon could also deny launch capability for 
commercial purposes.

>Not sure how specialized it needs to be.

Just small enough to do the job.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 19:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 18:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <c5.276f2f24.2a8da970@aol.com>

 >>You are forgiven (as if you need to ask me).  But I would never continue 
with
 >>a strategy, published or not, that has produced nothing but bare draws and
 >>significant losses in five wars.  I certainly wouldn't stand around 
passively
 >>waiting for the next attack -- that guarantees a loss.
 >
 >Remember:  The military is under the control of the civilian power 
 >structure.

In the Imperium?  With a rule of men, not laws?

 >What is to be gained by attacking the Consulate?  Nothing that 
 >I can see.  What would the war goals be?

Disruption of _their_ supply lines, disruption of _their_ economic ability to 
wage war, destruction of _their_ repair facilities, frightening of _their_ 
leaders and population, sitting on _their_ lines of retreat.  They attack, I 
attack.  They violate borders, I ignore theirs.

 >>  >That, and using my lessons from over twenty years of serious research
 >>  >into military history.
 >>
 >>So ... how are victories obtained?
 >
 >In the Marches?  For the Zhodani, keeping the Imperium off balance and 
 >afraid of the Zhodani.  The Imperium wants to maintain the status 
 >quo.  Both sides appear to be happy with the current balance of power.

The Imperium is happy with being off-balance and afraid of the Zhodani?  I 
wouldn't be.  And I don't think the Zhodani are either.  They've been 
launching wars of aggression and capturing territory for 500 years -- why 
would they stop?

 >The Fifth Frontier War was a clear victory for the Imperium without taking 
 >any more real estate than Esalin.  Why?  It shattered the Sword Worlds, and 
 >broke several Zhodani fleets.  The message was clear:  Attack at your own 
 >risk.  I think that we will now see a century of peace between the 
 >Consulate and the Imperium.

(looking back ... hm)  I'm unfamiliar with the Fifth -- all I have is the 
original books.  But frankly, I don't see why it wasn't that way in the first 
place, unless the Imperium has only recently obtained technical superiority 
over the Zhodani.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 19:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug 15 18:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Too much time on our hands
Message-ID: <20020816012403.39344.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>

>e.g, a dialogue very close to an event in one play session:
>
>GM: "Quick: who are you firing at?  You've only got about a second"
>Me: "I don't know -- what can I see?"
>GM: "Too late; you feel a hammer-blow in your shoulder almost
>immediately followed by what feels like a giant's fist in your 
>chest."

This appears to be very bad GMing.  Before the referee can put time
pressure on the players, he or she has to set up the context enough
for them to act.  "Enough" is actually quite a lot of information. 
Miniatures or even counters really help.

>Maybe I am very poor at coming up with "reasonable" assumptions, or
>maybe I've had shockingly bad GMs.  

Well it could be either or a little of both.  How does your play
compare with other players in the same situation in the same game?

>Roleplaying is not just acting.  There are far more opportunities
for
>world-view mismatches between the participants, and such mismatches
>are greatly more damaging.

Your point is well taken, but it sounds like you've backed off of
your position that you don't make decisions quickly. If you play
volleyball well, as you indicated, you make decisions very quickly.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 19:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 18:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Vilani Chess
Message-ID: <98.2a82c54f.2a8daeca@aol.com>

 >One advantage of chess is that it produces involved strategies w/out 
 >complex movement rules (thorugh the interaction of the pieces). 
 >Giving a piece a conditional movement rule is contrary to the feel of 
 >chess.  If you want a starship feel.  Maybe the piece can move 2 
 >hexes in any direction, skipping intermediate hexes.  (like a 
 >starship jump).

As a kid in my chess club sometimes we would play something called Ultima.  
Here are the rules, if anyone cares.

Use a regular chess board, set up normally.  Swap the black king and queen.  
Turn over the king-side rooks.  The board is now set up for Ultima.

The pawns are now called Surrounders.  They move like rooks.  All other 
pieces move like queens -- except the King, which still moves one square at a 
time.  The Queen is called a Withdrawer.  The bishops are called Imitators.  
The knights are called Leapers.  The remaining rook is called an Angler.  The 
upside-down rook is called the Immobilizer.  Each side gets one move at a 
time, White starting.  No piece may leap over a friendly piece.

The King captures pieces the same way as a chess King.

The Surrounders capture pieces by surrounding them on two opposite sides 
horizontally or vertically (not diagonally).

The Leapers capture enemy pieces by leaping over them, from any distance to 
any distance.  They may leap any number of enemy pieces, provided there is at 
least one space between those enemy pieces.  They may not leap over their own 
pieces.

The Withdrawer captures pieces by moving adjacent to them in one turn, and 
then moving directly away from them (to any distance) in any subsequent turn.

The Angler captures pieces by working in conjunction with its King.  When the 
Angler or King move, whereever they are, the King and the Angler form the 
acute angles of a right triangle -- at the row and file where the sides of 
that triangle meet to form the right angle, any enemy piece there is 
captured, regardless of any intervening pieces.

The Immobilizer does not capture pieces.  Rather it renders immobile any 
enemy piece within one square of it.  Two Immobilizers within one square of 
each other will be permanently stuck until one of them is captured.  
Immobilized Surrounders may still participate in captures.  A Leaper may leap 
from a distance and capture an Immobilizer.

An Imitator captures pieces by imitating their capturing move -- it leaps 
Leapers, immobilizes Immobilizers, etc.  In so doing it must move as the 
captured piece moves, i.e. only one square to capture a King, move as a rook 
to capture a Surrounder.

And that's it.  The game is very open, and gets messy fast.  I always thought 
it was fun.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 19:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Aug 15 18:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
In-Reply-To: <19d.6fbf772.2a8c6b7e@cs.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815214543.028df008@192.168.0.1>


Vdub


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
I'm what love is all about. I've got American Teeth
and a Spanish Mouth -- Fernando (Billy Crystal)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 19:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Aug 15 18:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value
 targets)
In-Reply-To: <1029383822.3d5b268eca2b7@www.paradise.net.nz>
References: <F6JYsIthCLwkcMtwGtY00007125@hotmail.com>
 <F6JYsIthCLwkcMtwGtY00007125@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815215034.029fd008@192.168.0.1>

At 03:57 PM 8/15/2002 +1200, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>Quoting "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>:
> > (1) - Take a look at the War of 1812 for a war in which both sides
> > "won".
>Funny, I use the War of 1812 as an example of a war in which almost everyone
>lost. In the long run the British failed to control American expansionism 
>(one
>of their goals), the would-be land-grabbers failed to get any new lands, and
>the US states lost power.
>The only winner I see was the US Federal government, which gained all 
>sorts of
>cool powers, like being able to directly raise an army suitable for foreign
>adventures (rather than have to rely on the states lending their milita - 
>fine
>for defence, lousy for land-grabs), and being able to raise taxes to pay for
>this army (and other stuff, of course).

At the museum of American Warfare at West Point, the section on the war of 
1812 starts off,
"At best, this war can be called a draw."



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
And, isn't sanity really just a one trick pony anyway? I mean, all you get
is one trick: rational thinking. But when you're good and crazy, ooo hoo
hoo, the sky's the limit! - The Tick  http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 19:53:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 18:53:45 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <a7.251d2f62.2a8db4d6@aol.com>

 >>  >> You are forgiven (as if you need to ask me).  But I would never
 >>  >> continue with a strategy, published or not, that has produced
 >>  >> nothing but bare draws and significant losses in five wars.  I
 >>  >> certainly wouldn't stand around passively waiting for the next
 >>  >> attack -- that guarantees a loss. 
 >>  >
 >>  >How odd. The western allies were the attacked in WWI and they won.
 >> 
 >> Not the French.  They took same the view you do.  The allies won because 
the 
 >> United States and Soviet Union were unreachable (in different ways), and 
 >> therefore unbeatable once they ramped up production.  But even with this 
the 
 >> allies and the United States almost lost anyway, and were losing until 
they 
 >> took the offensive and forced Germany and Japan into defensive roles from 
 >> which they were unable to escape.
 >
 >World War One, not World War Two. And on tactical - strategic level 
 >Germany nearly won WWI by adopting a fairly defensive posture and 
 >encouraging the western allies to attack.

I'm not sure I follow you here.  WW1 is a special case -- everything bogged 
down and no-one had any mobility.  This simply wouldn't happen in any 
Traveller war.  I was thinking of WW2.  To the extent that it works at all, I 
think WW1 makes _my_ case.  The whole point of the maneuver they attempted 
was to lure the enemy in by a feigned retreat and then outflank them with a 
heavily-overweighted _offensive_ end-run around the lines.  But in the end 
they put too many men in the retreating wing and didn't retreat fast enough, 
and put too few men in the offensive arm, and so were unable to press their 
attack through the thin defense fast enough to capture their goal of Paris 
before the French recovered.  Then everything locked up.  Here the defensive 
retreat was a ruse -- the offensive move was meant to win.

 >In WWII the Soviet Union wore 
 >the Germans out by retreating (generally considered a defensive move) 
 >until they were worn out (and the Soviets had run out of room). Same in 
 >the Napoleonic Wars.

They retreated because they were losing (and badly -- Stalin had shot much of 
his officer corps a few years before).  If the German command had planned 
better, they _would_ have lost in spite of any amount of retreating.  And 
there is no Russian Winter in space.

 >> I'm sure that after 20 years you can be a little more explicative.
 >
 >My mil-history studies are only about 15 years old - Doug's got a bit 
 >of a head start on me.

Oh, sorry.  I never keep track of who I'm responding to, I just read and 
write.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 19:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Thu Aug 15 18:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
Message-ID: <20020816015510.70213.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
In a situation where communication with the capital
takes 12 months, they have to be.  They _are_
entrusted with grand strategy, by default.
END QUOTE

No they formulate grand strategy in accordance with
orders from there superiors. If the Emperor's standing
orders dictate that they can not perform some risky
but possibly war winnig maneuver (eg a deep strike
into Zho space) than they are unlikely (to say the
least) to perform such a manuever.

QUOTE
Well, then, all I can say is how could they lose? 
Even if the Imperium were forced all the way back to
Mora and Trin, they would still meet this "goal".  
But I would have to say that such a goal originates in
Zhodane, not the Imperium.
END QUOTE

I would agree with you. There are numerous hints
throughout canon on Zhodani manipulation of Imperial
high commanders. The Zho's may even be conducting a
psychohistory campaign against Imperial worlds in
general.

QUOTE
Yep, sure did.  The United States government refused
to take on North Vietnam in its own territory and
other territories were it was operating, and 
then when the chips were down totally abandoned the
government of South Vietnam and left it to be overrun.
END QUOTE

This is similar to the Korean conflict where area
commanders wished to strike support bases but where
prevented by higher command, because that would have
caused an escalation in the conflict. Maybe the Zho's
will resort to scorched earth or even nuclear
bombardment of Imperial worlds if they feel they are
losing too badly. The Frontier wars don't seem to me
to have ever been grand fight's to the death between
states, but rather minor border skirmishes which
neither side wishes to escalate. For political
reasoning behind this read 1984 by George Orwell.

QUOTE
He stated that it was his opinion that the French were
passing along these flight plans to the NVA.
END QUOTE

This would make a great campaign. Especially if the
players where Imperial Intelligence Agents of some
description. 

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://digital.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Digital How To
- Get the best out of your PC!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 19:56:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug 15 18:56:44 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Victory in the Frontier Wars
Message-ID: <20020816015518.16949.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Flykiller@aol.com

>Personally, if I were in charge, and I were to look at this 500 year
>history of retreat in the face of a technologically inferior
>opponent, I'd have to ask "What are we doing wrong here?" and then
>fix it.

Suppose you were Strephon or even Styryx.  How important is the
frontier to life at court?  These are frontier wars, after all --
they are removed from the centers of civilization, and appear to have
no danger of getting closer.  The frontiers are not completely
abandoned, but there is no need to send massive forces there -- which
might be more needed at other, more bloodthirsty, borders, like
rimward and trailing.  In terms of the good of the Imperium, we may
not be doing anything wrong there.

>>War is politics by other means, that's why generals and admirals
>>usually don't decide grand strategy.  

>In a situation where communication with the capital takes 12 months,

>they have to be.  They _are_ entrusted with grand strategy, by
>default.

There is a quasi-civil structure in place, which is the Imperial
nobility.  Many admirals and generals are nobles, of course, but they
may not be of local origin, and may not have the command of the
political situation that the Imperial nobles whose fiefs are
threatened by the invader do.  There will always be some tension
among what the people on the scene think is best, what the military
people who have been there for a shorter time think, and what the
Emperor wants for a particular region and for the Imperium as a
whole.

>North Vietnam didn't win -- the United States walked away.  Seems to
>me that many are pressing the Imperium to follow the same pattern.  

It's not a totally bad analogy.  The Imperium might very well walk
away from distant border areas.  Rome did from time to time,
depending its needs in other border areas (I think Rome is a much
better model, of course, given the time lags in communications).

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 20:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Aug 15 19:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020815101514.009e3c60@mindspring.com>
References: <7c.2c7a4f5c.2a8c4912@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815215720.016f11f8@192.168.0.1>

At 10:20 AM 8/15/2002 -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
[snip]
>In the Marches?  For the Zhodani, keeping the Imperium off balance and 
>afraid of the Zhodani.  The Imperium wants to maintain the status 
>quo.  Both sides appear to be happy with the current balance of power.
>The Fifth Frontier War was a clear victory for the Imperium without taking 
>any more real estate than Esalin.  Why?  It shattered the Sword Worlds, 
>and broke several Zhodani fleets.  The message was clear:  Attack at your 
>own risk.  I think that we will now see a century of peace between the 
>Consulate and the Imperium.

Cool...lot's of room for classic cold war espionage, double dealing and 
private little proxie wars.




---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Vikings? There ain't no Vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was
burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway.
That's our story and we're sticking to it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 20:02:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Aug 15 19:02:04 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Traveller Mental Picture of the Day
In-Reply-To: <20020815182824.55023.qmail@web20417.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815220027.026db008@192.168.0.1>

At 11:28 AM 8/15/2002 -0700, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> >From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
> >Hasn't Gvegh been described as sounding like an "asthmatic dog
> >coughing"?  That might work since the description implies a lot of
> >wierd sounds that can carry info.  (though, remember, since Vargr
> >can speak human languages, and vice versa, it should be, at least
> >mostly, sounds a human can make)(.
>Vargr always seem to sound like Scooby Doo when I play them.

"Gvegh is essentially James Brown with fur in his throat." -- Kenji Schwarz 
on the TML

 From my list of RPG sig quotes, many taken without shame from the TML
<http://www.urbin.net/EWW/sigs/rpg-sigs.html>


----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/   "He couldn't seem to stop with
the double entendres. They rose to his lips like drool from the
id." -- Deep Eddy, Bruce Sterling
----------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 20:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Aug 15 19:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1029447384.1653.ajackson@ping>
References: <200208152127.MVU00119@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815220338.0188f458@192.168.0.1>

At 02:36 PM 8/15/2002 -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>John T. Kwon writes:
> > Actually, if you've been to either the Army or Marine Sniper
> > training, I would regard you as less likely to do something
> > stupid with a rifle than almost anyone else.
>Well, being selected for sniper training does generally imply that the people
>doing the selection think you have the mentality to be able to look closely at
>people and then shoot them, which is one of those mental traits that make 
>other
>people nervous.

When my dad applied to the Army Nuclear program, one of the final tests was 
a psych evalution.
As he points out, they were judged to be stable, not necessarily sane...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ferret: Chaos with fur, claws and an odd smell.
          http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 20:09:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Aug 15 19:09:30 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <200208141339.MTJ01017@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20815.183315.9Q7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> One other note - usually an analog computer is less "buggy" 
> than a digital computer - but that may be because it is 
> usually designed as simply as possible for a single task.

That's mostly because digital setups have problems with sign reversal,
and over/underflow conditions. 

The (mechanical) analog types only have "dege" effects (ie you run off
the edge of the chart or cam). 

The electronic analog computers only need current/voltage limiters. 

Basicly, the analog systems are "linear" or at the least continuous
functions. Any "steps" are there on purpose. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 20:10:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Aug 15 19:10:29 2002
Subject: Failed Worlds (was Re: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <3D5ABAB7.10805@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20815.183639.6p9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> John T. Kwon wrote:
>
>> I've been wondering at what tech level does the quantum 
>> computer appear?  I have the nagging feeling that in real 
>> life, the quantum computer (a practical one) may appear 
>> before I retire.  There seems to be a huge paradigm shift 
>> that will take place once such a computer can be made - a 
>> larger change than the transition from analog to digital.
>
> Perhaps in manufacturing, but not, I think in terms of systems design, 
> as all quantum devices I've seen are still binary devices.

> It will be as much a paradigm switch as going from discrete components 
> to IC's, more a matter of degree than a switch among fundamental mechanisms.

Sligt confusion here. Quantum devices are designed to act like current
components only smaller.

Quantum *computers* aren't necessarily binary. They are also in many
ways "infinitely parallel" processors. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 20:12:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Aug 15 19:12:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
In-Reply-To: <200208152250.MVX01806@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815220707.02a10e68@192.168.0.1>

At 06:50 PM 8/15/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>Glenn M. Goffin says
> >No one's worried about what you'll do with a gun, John.
> >Shawn just doesn't want any software consultants around, and
> >sometimes I can't blame him.
>Well, there's a reason I call my representative from the
>consulting company "my pimp".  He even wears those pointy
>Italian dress shoes and a really nice suit.
>Which makes the typical software consultant a ....

I personally prefer the term "mercenary".

As a wise programmer once told me when I was sweating over some assembly 
code that was supposed make a NIC work,
"Don't think of it as a career. Think of it as a paycheck."


----------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular?
----------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 20:15:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 19:15:25 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <1a2.704f94d.2a8db9db@aol.com>

 >> So, the Zhodies are free to attack at will, while the Imperials are 
afraid of 
 >> precipitating "border disputes".  Sounds like a policy tailor-made in 
 >> Zhodane.  Maybe it is.
 >
 >No, the Imperium could start a 'border dispute' if it wanted, but a 
 >serious move into Zho territory could well trigger something neither 
 >side wants. Remeber that the Zhos had actually been in that regoin of 
 >space well before the Imperium, and their side of the broder probably 
 >isn't quite so much of a quaint backwater as the Imperial side. Thus 
 >they'll tend to be a lot more sensitive to invasion.

Well, I read in Supplement 11, "By 500, the newly settled areas were adjacent 
to territories being settled by the Zhodani Consulate in the Cronor 
Subsector.  By 550, the two empires had intermingled their settlements, in 
some cases sharing systems, in others holding neighboring worlds."  This 
doesn't sound like invasion to me, unless canon has been changed (which it 
could have -- this is all I have access to).  If anything it makes the 
Zhodani sound like what they're sensitive to is not invasion, but the 
presence of anyone not under their control.

 >Raiding and broder adjustments are one thing, movement on and past 
 >Chronor are quite another.

If it was done once, it can be done again.

 >For that reason I think that if the Zhos had got what they wanted in 
 >the FFW if they didn't offer to return Rhylanor and allow the Jewells 
 >to be allied to the Imperium they could well have been in another, more 
 >major, war with the Imperium in the near future, as taking a couple of 
 >subsectors could well provoke outrage in the core.

I've looked over the maps to be found at Traveller Central, counting up 
populations and tech levels and especially shipyards.  I don't know if they 
are at all official, but if they are or are anywhere close to being so then 
for the life of me I don't understand why the Zhodani are defeating the 
Imperials, outraged or not -- unless the Imperials simply don't care or 
partly sympathize with Zhodane, but I don't see anything anywhere that would 
indicate that.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 20:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug 15 19:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Victory in the Frontier Wars
Message-ID: <20020816021824.25759.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>

>In looking at Zho motivation in the frontier wars, one thing has 
>struck me is that everyone seems to be looking for the _one_ 
>motivation that is ascribed as lasting unchanged for centuries.  It 
>is quite possible that the motivation has drifter or changed over 
>time (or is about to change).  It is also likely that, within the 
>consulate, there are different factions with different views.....

This is a good point.  Neither empire involved is static.  Both are
changing and developing over time.  

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 20:19:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 19:19:47 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <8d.1cb5daf1.2a8dbaf4@aol.com>

 >WWI was a war notable for the imbalance between attack and defense.  Due to 
the
 >mechanics of force concentration in Traveller, unless you posit _very_
 >effective ground batteries (which one might; buried meson sites can be 
pretty
 >tough) the fact that in Traveller it's very hard to intercept an enemy fleet
 >means that the balance tends to favor the offense.

Are there any official rules for ground batteries?  I've made up some of my 
own, and they make sense to me, but I'd like to hear what else has been done.

I agree about the dominance of offense.  That's why I think a policy of 
"defense" in this environment is bound to lose.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 20:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Aug 15 19:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <15a.1284a6d1.2a8d9b5f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815222148.026db008@192.168.0.1>

At 08:03 PM 8/15/2002 -0400, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
>  >Does a downport
>  >serve as a hub? If so, why? If I am a factory owner and I need parts
>  >regularly shipped to me from Regina, why would I want to travel halfway
>  >around the world to pick up goods at the downport that could have been
>  >picked up in orbit?
>Taxes, immigration / emmigration control, customs, safety inspections, law
>enforcement.  Also, while it may be advantageous to drop stuff from orbit, it
>may be more advantageous for ships that are picking up stuff to know where to
>go to start looking.

Which is why tramp freighters love low tech worlds with class X starports, 
no orbital nannies and stuff they can buy cheap and sell high.

Speaking of which, the Frengei episode of Enterprise was on last night.
Clint Howard as a Frengei was inspired!



----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Government does not cause affluence. Citizens of totalitarian
countries have plenty of government and nothing of anything
else." -- P. J. O'Rourke, EAT THE RICH
----------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 20:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Thu Aug 15 19:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A bunch of Trav related stuff
Message-ID: <20020816022734.66850.qmail@web11301.mail.yahoo.com>

Just basically a bunch of Trav related stuff I have
been thinking about.

One: Imperial Interdiction.
I was thinking about the Imperial rules of war and
what would be necessary to succesfully interdict a
world. I came to the conclusion that there must be
some sort of Space/ground interdiction vessel to guard
against the use of nuclear weapons (possible by a
rebel faction). Such a ship would need long range
nuclear dampers and/or laser and missile turrets. I
was thinking that it could be possible for such ships
to attune there dampers so that each ship acted as a
single node thereby increasing the dampers range. Such
a vessel might also be equipped to act as a strike
vessel with a marine complement, and a NBC team. It
would be a great place for PC's.

Two: Landed Nobles.
Imperial nobles could be modified so that instead of
the title determining land holdings, the land holdings
determine the title. For example if you are the head
of government on Regina the Imperium recognises you as
the Duke of Regina. If you are over thrown, your
succesor is recognised and so on. This would mean land
grabs and military expansion would be condoned and
even encouraged by the Imperium (possible as a way of
keeping noble society "fit" and ready for external
conflict). For extra flavour you could have heridetery
landed nobles (ie the land is passed down the
generations), some of these who had lost there land
yet still acted like nobles would be perfect for an
Evil-GM (TM).

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://digital.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Digital How To
- Get the best out of your PC!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 20:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Thu Aug 15 19:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Aramis ss. navy builds IMTU
References: <3D5A749C.3AD1B9B0@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3D5C668E.6020901@yarranet.net.au>

Roseberry wrote:

> These are the initial navy builds for fleets in the Aramis subsector.
> Done using "meduim navies". The budgets listed below are the usual peace
> time budgets times ten. Tech levels are listed for the 80% of the fleets
> that are modern; obsolete is of course at least 1 TL less.
> 
> TLF Imperial Forces, Aramis subsector, MCr 3478268.928
[snip]

> TL9 Junidy MCr 11550000 
> Thats right friends! Junidy has 11.5 TC Squadrons.

Kind of makes a mockery of the Patron in The Traveller Adventure that 
says he can get you landed on the surfacwe without encountering customs.


> Attention Phill Webb:
> What you could do, in lieu of quadloos, is to send 72 crates [18dt] of
> Zilan wine. That would help me finish this quickly. Course you could do
> it yourself with HGS now that the hard part is done. What ever floats
> your boat.


That's a tall order, just the thought of all that paperwork is giving me 
a headache. I'll see what I can do and I might even throw in the Groats 
for free anyway.

What interested me about the Lanth Navies was the Imperial Navy and 
Scouts info as well as the individual planets. Particularly when most of 
them came from Supp 7 or 9.

I am intrigued by the Junidy ships that accomodate Llellewyloly and 
wonder if, because of the political situation, the officers might all be 
human with strong division between officers and ratings ala the 
Gazelle's anti-mutiny provisions.

Phill
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/traveller/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 21:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Aug 15 20:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <200208141347.MTJ01845@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20815.190814.3X0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> One of the questions I have always wondered about concerning 
> the two slit experiment is the source of the interference.  
>
> If we don't measure the photon, we get an interference 
> pattern.  Even if we send only one photon through at a time.  
> If we measure the photon *after* it goes through the slits, 
> it takes either one slit or the other.  In any case, the 
> photon has been interfered with prior to going through the 
> slits - in one case to produce an interference pattern, and 
> in the other case to go one way or the other.
>
> Something is interfering with the photon.  And it's not 
> something visible in the experiment.  So what is it?  Don't 
> retreat into probability functions, please - those are only 
> after-the-fact descriptions - not explanations of what is 
> happenning.

It interferes with *itself*. Remember, everything is *both* "particle"
and "wave" at the same time.

The reason for invoking math is because the equations describe things
without dragging in all the baggage that words like "wave" and
"particle" do. Baggage that *doesn't apply* at quantum scales.

Lots of this violates "common sense", because common sense is based on
our experience with the way things work at scales were quantum effects
are mostly invisible. 

The equations describe what happens. The various "descriptions" that
don't use math are attempts use things we are familiar with as
analogies. And as such, they are all fundamentally flawed.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 21:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Thu Aug 15 20:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F1669@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F1669@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <8gnoluk432jit00apbdaf95dm876pbfk74@4ax.com>

On Thu, 15 Aug 2002 13:04:15 -0700, "DeGraff, Jesse"
<Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> wrote:

Aw...  Shucks.

You like me; you really like me!

>Okay, JR gets the "Hardest Vote to Record" award ;)
>Jesse
>
>> While my first impression was to agree with you on the Beware
>> typeface, vdub or newbrilliant, being less literal and more graphic in
>> design, would both appear to be more amenable to a heavily graphic
>> logo.
>>=20
>> That being said, I'll also admit to a fondness for the appearance of
>> qswitchax.  It is nice, readable and the underplayed
>> descenders/ascenders keep it interesting.
>>=20
>> Given that the Famille is an old, well-established and respected
>> venture, you may want to consider more traditional typefaces.  The
>> typefaces you are presently favoring might become as embarrassing as a
>> Peter Max designed corporate logo would appear to today's eyes.
>>=20
>> --=20
>> JR Holmes


--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 21:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 20:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
Message-ID: <135.12f79829.2a8dca55@aol.com>

>> That's because the _player_ of the character with the high gun skill
>> didn't have to work for it, and in the process learn all the other
>> important stuff that goes with the ability--including when NOT to
>> use it.
>
>Well, and the fact that the _player_ doesn't face real repercussions
>when his _character_ is shot at.  Much as in a FPS players charge into
>gunfire, knowing that they probably won't die, so too do players in
>RPGs act much more brashly than they would in real life.

I've always felt that was one of the major attractions of roleplaying games. 
It's cathartic, theraputic, and stress reducing.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 21:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Thu Aug 15 20:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
References: <1a2.704f94d.2a8db9db@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D5C7130.CA9388CD@mindspring.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> 
>  >> So, the Zhodies are free to attack at will, while the Imperials are
> afraid of
>  >> precipitating "border disputes".  Sounds like a policy tailor-made in
>  >> Zhodane.  Maybe it is.
<snip>
> then
> for the life of me I don't understand why the Zhodani are defeating the
> Imperials, outraged or not -- unless the Imperials simply don't care or
> partly sympathize with Zhodane, but I don't see anything anywhere that would
> indicate that.

They_are_mind rapers after all is said and done. While I wouldn't do
anything that would harm the Imperium... What's that? Yes, my queen.
Admiral, order the fleet to depot/corridor for refit. Don't' question
me!

-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
The simplest act of surrealism is to walk out into the street,
gun in hand, and shoot at random.
           -Andr Breton

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 21:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 20:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <OFAE287A02.39094288-ONCA256C16.0083C037-CA256C17.0013FE8D@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Jesse asked:
>Okay kiddies, you get to help design the chaos.  I'm trying to decide
>on the official Famille Spofulam logo font...

Actually, my thought for the Family was the old Cadillac font. Y'know, the 
running-writing that all links along the bottom of the page as though 
there was a ruler there, constraining the writer. It was on those pink 
Cadillacs. I've been trying - fairly unsuccessfully - to find a good 
example, but try this:
        http://www.car-nection.com/yann/Dbas_ima/56elscrp.JPG

I thought that would be a suitably-retro look for them (it's the sort of 
thing I think the boss would do). Of course, you're then left with the 
problem of creating it...

However, if that's too pop-culture, my second choice is "vdub" for its 
soulless look, and my third is your original "beware".
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 21:39:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 20:39:47 2002
Subject: [TML] No longer Re: Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <110.16c550c6.2a8dcdc6@aol.com>

>>> TC needs to work on character names. Would you believe there's a Colonel
>>> Strokov?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Les
>>> 
>>
>>Just so long as there's no Colonel Lingus.

Or worse, a Gunnery Sergeant by the same name...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 21:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 20:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <190.b900653.2a8dcf52@cs.com>

In a message dated 8/15/02 10:39:48 PM Central Daylight Time, 
david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au writes: 
Actually, my thought for the Family was the old Cadillac font. Y'know, the 
running-writing that all links along the bottom of the page as though 
there was a ruler there, constraining the writer. It was on those pink 
Cadillacs. I've been trying - fairly unsuccessfully - to find a good 
example, but try this:
        http://www.car-nection.com/yann/Dbas_ima/56elscrp.JPG

I thought that would be a suitably-retro look for them (it's the sort of 
thing I think the boss would do). Of course, you're then left with the 
problem of creating it...

However, if that's too pop-culture, my second choice is "vdub" for its 
soulless look, and my third is your original "beware".
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson      

I've got one called Lambrettista that's kind of like that. I'll see if I can 
find it online.

Doug Grimes


--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 21:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Aug 15 20:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The Limits of Imperial Intervention
In-Reply-To: <200208160038.MWB00587@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208160038.MWB00587@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020816135326.A27354@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> When the Tigress shows up, and the Imperium is wroth with a 
> particular personage, would it be suicide to step into plain 
> view?

Could be, yes.


> would it be possible for the Tigress to have a specialized
> assassination laser?

A standard turret laser would probably do.  Although absorbed by the
atmosphere, it has enough energy to evacuate a tunnel through the air.
If the beam lasts somewhere between a few tens of microseconds up to a
few milliseconds, much of the energy should get through.

It should look and sound much like a perfectly straight lightning
bolt.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 22:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 21:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Motown Keyboard Kill
In-Reply-To: <002601c2454a$f25d4350$1001a8c0@sauron>
References: <001901c24487$2cd05640$e4c187d9@fg>
 <002601c2454a$f25d4350$1001a8c0@sauron>
Message-ID: <3179.64.8.3.28.1029470597.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

> Nick Wright wrote :
>> Frankie (Munden) wrote:
>>
>> "I know Loren, Martin and John,    ...."
>>
>> Keyboard Kill, Sir.
>
> I have to admit that this kill was completely unintended.
> So unintended, in fact, that I still don't get it.
> Can you let me in on the joke, please?
>
> Frankie

Ever hear of Abraham, Martin, and John - the song?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 22:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug 15 21:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The Limits of Imperial Intervention
In-Reply-To: <200208160058.MWB01944@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B981C89E.69E0C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/15/02 5:58 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

>> Heh.  Pretty large device, that; beam diffraction would be
>> about 1/4 million or about 3" from a 200 mile orbit, which
>> would limit its applicability against hardened targets of
>> any type, but 14 MW is certainly overkill on personell.
>>=20
> Apparently one of two proposed configurations for the Space
> Based Laser, and capable of destroying any current model of
> missile booster during boost phase in a few seconds of
> firing.  Missile skins are apparently quite thin, and making
> them thicker really degrades their performance, especially
> range.
>=20

OK, now get funding for the project from congress.  Technology. Heck, that'=
s
the easy part.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 22:08:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Aug 15 21:08:47 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <006601c243e0$71b02620$67e84242@upstairs>
Message-ID: <20815.200022.5R6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

>> As the wave functions interacting you get spreading "waves" of
>> probability. That is, the probability that it was over here interacts
>> with the probability that some other particle was somewhere else,
>> leading to further probability distributions for the current and
> future
>> positions of both particles.
>> Multiply that by the huge numbers of particles that are involved in
>> most things and it gets *really* ugly.
>
> That's very interesting. I didn't realize that. Makes things like
> trek-style matter-transport and time travel a real mess, doesn't it?

Well, Trek style transporters can't work anyway. Nor can any other
"scan and transmit" type.

But it's not impossible (just really, *really* unlikely) that you could
build something that *uses* the probability functions to cause things
to go from A to B all at once.

>> Once you "make an observation", you've pinned the particle down as to
>> it either is or is not where you "looked". With the result that any
>> probabilty waves for other particles that are inconsistent with that
>> result vanish. Ones that are consistent with it remain.
>> This is properly discussed with math. And *I* am not up to it.
> ..and...
>> It's not "multiple places". It's that it's only "partially" anywhere
>> (the probability functions) until the wave "collapses".
>
> I (currently) wouldn't really be able to follow the math. I'll take your
> word for the results.
>
> Just vanish? Is it default that no particles can exist in a set
> form/place until  the instant they  interact with another particle? How
> is there _any_ casuality at all?!? And doesn't this mean that future
> events (interaction results) force interaction consequences to affect
> the past? Seems like there would be waves of probablility effect going
> both forward and backwards at the same time.

The *particles* don't vanish. The *probability waves* vanish.

Until you make the observation, there might be a 10% chance that the
particle had passed thru some point where it would have caused another
particle to have a 5% chance of being some other place (think of
billard balls colliding and deflecting). 

But if you detect the first particle someplace where it *can't* have
deflected the other particle then the probable positions for the other
particle that depended on it being deflected no longer exist as
possibilities. 

Think of a shell game. An *honest* one. 

Until you pick up one of the shells, there's a 1/3 probability of it
being under any of the shells.

If you pick up one shell, there's now either a 0% or 100% probability
of it being under that shell. 

If the result was 100%, it's there, and there's a 0% probability of it
being under each of the other shells. 

If the result was 0%, then there's *now* a 50% probability of it being
under either of the other shells.

With quantum effects, it gets *much* hairier, because unlike the shell
game, the pea isn't "really" under any of the shells until you look. Or
rather, it really "is" 1/3 present under each of them.

> Thanks for the explanations. Gives me some tools to twist up how
> Jumpspace might look/work/etc.

My "take" on it is that a ship in jumpspace is in a "bubble" of normal
space (well, relatively normal) space that insulates it from that laws
that hold in jumpspace. 

On of the things that distinguishes our universe gfrom possible others
is the value of some natural constant. One of them has to have a value
*very* close to the one we see (like to one part in a trillion!) or
atoms more complex that hydrogen couldn't exist.

I've suggested to the folks who have the J-drive venting hydrogen
during the jump that they could argue that this constant is outside
that range in J-space, and the hydrogen is the safest thing to vent to
keep J-space (and its laws) from "creeping in" because it is already
"compatible" with the laws of j-space, so you don't get the nasty
energy releases that you get when more complex atoms cross the
boundary. 

I don't buy that theory, myself, but it makes a nice handwave. <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 22:09:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Aug 15 21:09:47 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <007801c243e1$ee731fe0$67e84242@upstairs>
Message-ID: <20815.202420.2b8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> From: "Timothy Little" <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
>> >  In any case, the photon has been interfered with prior to going
>> > through the slits - in one case to produce an interference pattern,
>> > and in the other case to go one way or the other.
>>
>> No.  It interferes with itself in the former case, after going through
>> both slits.
>> It has its wavefunction dispersed by your measuring device in the
>> latter, giving a different pattern.  Typically just a 1-slit pattern.
>
> I'm just barging in all over the place. If a particle interefers with
> itself, doesn't that mean (in some sense) that it is in two places at
> once? (Kind of like bumping into itself.)

No. As a wave, (think a single "wavefront", spreading out from a point)
it is "spread out". That's the probability wave I mentioned. The higher
the wave, the more likely the photon is at that point.

When the wave front hits the slit's you get two, weaker, wavefront's
spreading from each slit. And interfering with each other. 

Where it parts company from the sort of experiment yyou can do in a
wave tank, is that when you observe it, it's suddenly a single "spike"
in one spot (or flat water, indicating that it's somewhere else).

That "collapse of the wave function" is one of the biggest unanswered
(and possibly unanswerable) questions in quantum mechanics.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 22:11:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug 15 21:11:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
In-Reply-To: <135.12f79829.2a8dca55@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B981C961.69E11%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/15/02 8:24 PM, GDWGAMES@aol.com at GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

>> Well, and the fact that the _player_ doesn't face real repercussions
>> when his _character_ is shot at.  Much as in a FPS players charge into
>> gunfire, knowing that they probably won't die, so too do players in
>> RPGs act much more brashly than they would in real life.
>=20
> I've always felt that was one of the major attractions of roleplaying gam=
es.
> It's cathartic, theraputic, and stress reducing.
>=20

Absolutely!  In a recent PBeM game I was invited to join, it was suggested =
I
play a computer expert.  I do consulting in Real Life(tm). The last thing I
want to do is role play it.

The fun is being someone you're not, and sometimes, giving vent to all thos=
e
atavistic urges you've been storing up all week.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 22:22:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Angus McDonald)
Date: Thu Aug 15 21:22:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockheads Unite!
Message-ID: <OFE2C1022D.A38EEE11-ONCA256C16.008024CB@dnsalias.com>

Some of these assumptions are pretty weird. I mean, hi-tech stuff has got 
to be worth more than Cr 10,000 per dton?! (how many gauss rifles in a 
dton?) Then again, a true bulk trader IMTU would be something more like 
100,000 dton in size with at least 80,000 dton cargo space (although I've 
not put that through any sort of ship generator - that's just lining 
Traveller up with modern-day Earth bulk cargo ships).

Also, those bulk carriers do not need to visit the starport to pick up 
their stuff, assuming vacc-rated cargo modules are used, you can then just 
have contragrav lifters bring up massive amounts of stuff to low orbit and 
dump straight into the ship.

>>>
Bear in mind, a base pop-A (10 billion) TL-F world has a GWP on the order 
of
100 trillion credits; if one assumes a typical cargo value of Cr 10,000 
per
dton, trade at 10% of GWP per annum is about a billion tons per year, or a 
bit
over 100,000 dtons per hour.  If we assume that the average bulk trader is 
a
2,000 dton ship with a bit over 1,000 dtons of cargo capacity, that's one 
bulk
trader leaving every 40 seconds or so; with an average time in port of 3-4
days, there would be on the order of 10,000 such bulk traders in orbit at 
any
given time.  Is that how active you really imagine a high-pop starport to 
be?
<<<

---  from  ---
Angus McDonald
www.falkayn.com

--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/html
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 22:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 21:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockheads Unite!
Message-ID: <bd.257b327f.2a8ddd6a@aol.com>

 >Bear in mind, a base pop-A (10 billion) TL-F world has a GWP on the order of
 >100 trillion credits; if one assumes a typical cargo value of Cr 10,000 per
 >dton, trade at 10% of GWP per annum is about a billion tons per year, or a 
bit
 >over 100,000 dtons per hour.  If we assume that the average bulk trader is a
 >2,000 dton ship with a bit over 1,000 dtons of cargo capacity, that's one 
bulk
 >trader leaving every 40 seconds or so; with an average time in port of 3-4
 >days, there would be on the order of 10,000 such bulk traders in orbit at 
any
 >given time.  Is that how active you really imagine a high-pop starport to 
be?

Actually, it looks doable for an A7 world.  If you have a 20,000 acre 
starport (that's only 5 by 10 miles) you could assign 2 acres to each vessel. 
 This is quite adequate, and if you have the equivilant of an underground 
switching yard beneath the landing zone to handle cargo input and output then 
cargo passing should be fairly easy, as would be crew movement.  If it does 
get too crowded then you can always build a second starport.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 23:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 22:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
Message-ID: <134.12f1ff90.2a8de23d@aol.com>

 >> losing streak.  Personally, if I were in charge, and I  were to look at 
this
 >> 500 year history of retreat in the face of a  technologically inferior
 >> opponent, I'd have to ask "What are we doing wrong  here?" and then fix 
it.
 >
 >Well, the Zhodani may not have been technologically inferior for all that 
long.
 >They were less affected by the long night, and might have actually been on
 >average higher-tech in the early wars.

(Did the Zhodani experience a Long Night?)

Now that would be a valid and fully understandable reason.  But since it has 
never been brought up in any context, and since canon makes no mention of 
this at all (to my knowledge, which is admittedly thin), then I'd have to say 
that that is because these relative circumstances were always in place.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 23:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 22:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
Message-ID: <194.b959f41.2a8de414@aol.com>

 >In looking at Zho motivation in the frontier wars, one thing has 
 >struck me is that everyone seems to be looking for the _one_ 
 >motivation that is ascribed as lasting unchanged for centuries.

I hadn't thought I was looking for any motivation on their part.  They keep 
aggressively coming -- does the why matter?  And even if you knew the genuine 
why at any given time, how could you seek to come to terms with it except by 
defeating it?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 23:16:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Thu Aug 15 22:16:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <ML-2.3.1029342430.8394.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3D5C676C.3050406@usisp.com>

>
>
>
>Because there's a mismatch between rhetoric and reality?
>
   
    There is not. Trade between planets in the Imperium is very similar 
to trade between counties on our planet. If the rules do not match 
that...then as far as I am concerned, those rules are broken. Humans 
3000 years from now will act pretty much as we do here on earth now. And 
that includes our desires for profit.

>





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 23:17:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Thu Aug 15 22:17:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
References: <200208140119.MSJ03121@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <20020814182045.B22124@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3D5C63AA.6020706@usisp.com>

>
>
>
>A detailed and self-consistent set of rules for NPC psychology in
>general would be handy, including motivations, internal conflicts,
>biases, thought patterns, and personality traits that aren't simple
>advantages or disadvantages.  Non-human psychology as well, of course.
>
>Well, where is it?  I want it yesterday!
>

    Patience...I'm working on it.






From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 23:18:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Thu Aug 15 22:18:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
References: <B97F02B7.697AF%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <200208140119.MSJ03121@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <B97F02B7.697AF%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020814085915.009eeec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3D5C65B3.8010101@usisp.com>

>  I give fifteen seconds to declare something.  As long as a person has 
> done something in that time span, he gets to proceed with his turn.  
> If not, it's a pass. 


    I used to do that some twenty years ago. I even ceremoniously 
clicked the stopwatch for effect. Its amazing, but when under extreme 
pressure, must of my players just started sprayed lead full auto all 
around until next round. Lots of players were shot in the back 
accidentally that way.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 23:18:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Thu Aug 15 22:18:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Economics (was: warship optimization)
References: <20020813044724.1608.72814.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentra l.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020813085957.01cf1500@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <3D5C3695.7030305@usisp.com>

>
> The trade rules where *always* geared toward small tramp freighters, 
> not large corporate merchantmen.
>
    That is what I found when I studied the rulesets that I still have. 
Pocket Empires is the only set that works on such a large scale. It can 
be used for markets and politics, but I haven't seen a reasonable way to 
scale that down to pc level. What if rockheads played it separately from 
role-players and let the role-players use it as background. It may be 
more consistant than the oth.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 23:20:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Thu Aug 15 22:20:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020805081929.C24737@freeman.little-possums.net> <02080817101100.00601@linux> <20020809083319.B2995@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D53003A.1070102@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020809190742.B3949@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D540E41.1040509@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020810113922.D5883@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D58064C.4020008@pharmacy.arizona.edu> <20020813123534.B18707@freeman.little-possums.net> <m3d6smqzeu.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> <20020814105743.D21297@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3D5C5F69.2060100@usisp.com>

Timothy Little wrote:

>Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
>
>>Can one vuiew the rules as applying solely to shipping by free
>>traders?
>>
>
>Not really, but one could modify them in such a way.
>
>The rules talk frequently about how the full trade volume is not
>available to tramps, and that most of the trade on high-volume routes
>is carried by regular liners with substantially lower costs.  The
>tables already reduce tramp freight on high-volume routes.
>
>(Low volume routes do not have enough trade to support anything but
>tramps)
>
    That level is nowhere near what is stated in MT or hard times as 
common in the third imperium; therfore, those rules are either broken or 
GT has forked the oth



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 23:21:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Thu Aug 15 22:21:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <ML-2.3.1029256363.5566.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3D5C39A2.8070105@usisp.com>

>
>
>  high trade means a lot
>of transfer of ideas and people, and would tend to reduce the variation between
>worlds in Traveller.  Based on the extreme variations which can occur, trade
>must be fairly minor in the Imperium.
>
    It seems to me that high trade is the main reason for the Imperium's 
existance. At least that is the assumption behind Megatraveller and 
therefore the 3rd Imperium. As far as variations go, in America, we have 
high speed communication and transport, yet we seem just as fragmented 
as ever. Making social judgements in Traveller is probably much more 
difficult and arbitrary than making economic judgements. There don't 
seem to be any real set rules to use as guidelines, so anybody can 
pretty much have any kind of social order they like.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 23:22:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Thu Aug 15 22:22:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02081114040900.00604@linux> <20020812083508.B15923@freeman.little-possums.net> <02081219072102.00595@linux> <20020814105204.C21297@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3D5C5EB7.3080006@usisp.com>

>
>
>GURPS Traveller: Far Trader.  It gives figures for total volume of
>trade between any two worlds based on population, technology, trade
>codes, distance, trade routes, political ties, and starport type.  Sum
>to get total trade with the rest of the universe.  It also gives a
>figure for GWP.
>
>For almost all high-pop planets, trade is less than 1% of GWP.  For
>more than half of them, it's less than 0.3%.
>

        But that is far less that canonic if going by essays written for 
MT are correct and they are as they were written as part of that 
ruleset. Perhaps Gurps forked the OTH or that those rules are geared for 
small PC ships and cargo manifest genertation. Having never seen GT/FT, 
I can only guess. But, I do know that those figures do not match the 
trade levels said to be found in the third Imperium according to the 
games' designers. ( Will quote rules if I have to )

>>1 man uses .064 KM^2 per year to feed only himself given continuous
>>growing seasons,
>>
>
>As I said, that's *way* too high.  It fails a basic reality check.
>
>Real-world figures are more like 0.005 km^2 per person, with the usual
>seasonal variations, and little attempts to minimise land area used.
>
>It should be substantially less for TL 15, less for a world where
>surface area is more expensive to develop than Earth's, and less stil
>for a society in which terajoules of energy are literally cheaper than
>dirt.  If you're also assuming continuous growing seasons, reduce it
>further again.
>
>Given those factors, I'd guess that the World Tamers Handbook
>overestimates by a factor of a hundred.
>
   
    That's quite possible. When I did my test, I did not compare given 
numbers to RW for such things.

>>	If it was stopped for war, then as a hi-tech, hi-pop
>>world,....  it would've been invaded or bombed back to stone age
>>anyways.One needs to know the causes in order to guess the effects.
>>
>
>If it was bombed back to the stone age, then obviously it wasn't loss
>of trade that caused the decrease in tech levels!  To say otherwise is
>to confuse correlation with causation.
>
    As I mentioned in another post, I believe that the loss of tech 
levels was caused by loss of trade. The lower tech level represents the 
local manufacturing tech level. The previous tech level represented 
goods  that were commonly available....as imports.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 23:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Thu Aug 15 22:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <ML-2.3.1029366595.4851.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3D5C6D32.8010206@usisp.com>

>
>
>It can be diverse.  It can't be as diverse as the OTU, particularly in terms of
>TL; essentially the only way the TL distribution in the OTU makes any sense is
>if trade is really minimal.
>

    I have decided that because of overly simplified portions of the 
uwp, tech level distribution is flawed.
Tech levels should follow population, not starport availability. You 
have to have enough people to build technology to have it. That is why 
Lichtenstein can't build their own f-18 Viper (that's what the pilots 
called them during the first CQ). That's why Fiji can't build a Cray 
XMP. If they want it, they have to import it.
    Listed Tech levels indicate goods that are available, not what goods 
are local manufactured. And THAT depends on infrastructure and enough 
people to run the factories. The social side of the uwp needs to be 
revamped.

>>It has been stated many places in many published works, in the
>>*authorial* voice that the Imperium exists to promote and protect
>>trade between worlds.  It's not just in-game rhetoric.
>>
>Actually, that can be true even if there isn't much trade.  It just implies
>that the Imperium probably isn't very powerful.
>

    That's just plain wrong. That's all I have to say about that, 
because the published works are clear on that point.





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 23:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Thu Aug 15 22:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economics
References: <158.11db616f.2a7cb4bc@aol.com> <02081114275201.00604@linux> <20020812075652.A15923@freeman.little-possums.net> <02081221130903.00595@linux> <20020814103258.B21297@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3D5C4399.3010500@usisp.com>

>
>
>
>Hardly!  I'm just saying that they are canonical, published rules.
>Given my poor reception last time I said that they implied
>ridiculously low trade, my posts are more along the lines of "if you
>use these rules, here's the consequences: like it or not".
>
    My apologies for sounding confrontational. I do not use GT., but 
rather MT and a mix of whatever seems appropriate, and they are also 
canon. It seems that we are comparing apples to oranges in that all 
rules except pocket empires deals with small trade for pc's and not 
large trade for political/strategic play. Either that or the OTH has 
been forked. MT definately calls for massive interstellar trade.

>>
>Is this set of rules available anymore?  I haven't been able to find
>them.  Also, is it designed to model the Imperium around 1120?
>
        I haven't seen it anywhere for sale in years. It is part of T4 
and models the early Third Imperium, the expansion of Sylea or the end 
of the Long Night , if you will. As it readily meshes with canon, and 
certain RW laws being consistant, I find it models any era very nicely. 
It gives one the big picture but few details.

>>As an aside...the projected drop in tech levels concerns me and
>>raises questions for me exactly what tech levels are. Are they
>>measures of what is available, or are they measures of manufacturing
>>capabilities.
>>
>
>Under the results of the Far Trader rules, the two are pretty much
>synonymous.
>
>With more trade, they diverge.  I generally take them to mean what is
>available locally at close to list price.  Higher technology goods or
>services are usually available, but at a significant premium, and may
>be harder to find.
>
    The projected tech drop really bothered me, but I think I see the 
reason. My test world was at t15 with trade, but up to 5 levels less 
without trade. I think that implies that the difference was caused by 
off world trade. In other words, the higher tech levels were imported 
and the lower tech level represents local manufacturing capabilities.
    When considering a small mining outpost at high tech, it makes 
perfect sense. The high tech is imported, but the mining post is not set 
up to manufacture such things as chip fabrication plants,  and as its 
capital is spent on mining and not much else, it has a low tech level 
 for manufacturing. I think real world examples abound. Diego Garcia has 
high tech but  almost all of it is an import and not made there.
       This may have a significant effect on whether a world fails 
without trade or not. It may make some rockballs unable to be self 
suffient as local manufactured tech levels may be abyssmally low.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 23:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug 15 22:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
References: <194.b959f41.2a8de414@aol.com>
Message-ID: <009501c244e7$849fe240$850dbd50@martinjd>

>
> I hadn't thought I was looking for any motivation on their part.  They
keep
> aggressively coming -- does the why matter?  And even if you knew the
genuine
> why at any given time, how could you seek to come to terms with it except
by
> defeating it?

There is a reference somewhere (I can't remember where) that the Zhodani
want a defensive mindset on the part of the Imperials, so that the "big one"
is less likely to happen (or less likely to start with an Imperial assault).
Thus they have established the pattern of sudden attacks but limited wars.
They don't want any more territory.

What they want is to forestall the Imperials from deciding to expand and
pushing into Zho space, until eventually it becomes a big fight for
survival. These limited wars are fought on a tacit understanding that
they're just border jobs, and... "you don't want this getting any bigger now
do you?"

The rules are now established, and so long as both sides remain within them,
neither can lose too much.

Somewhat similar to the 7 years war period, I suppose. Grab what you can and
sue for peace.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 23:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 22:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
Message-ID: <46.2c1dfc1f.2a8decd8@aol.com>

 >QUOTE
 >>In a situation where communication with the capital
 >>takes 12 months, they have to be.  They _are_
 >>entrusted with grand strategy, by default.
 >END QUOTE
 > 
 >No they formulate grand strategy in accordance with
 >orders from there superiors. If the Emperor's standing
 >orders dictate that they can not perform some risky
 >but possibly war winnig maneuver (eg a deep strike
 >into Zho space) than they are unlikely (to say the
 >least) to perform such a manuever.

Would these Emperors perfer ceding yet more territory to facing risk?  What 
Emperor would issue a standing order consisting of, "They may strike us, but 
you may not strike them"?  This would be an aggressor Zhodani admiral's 
dream.  I would have doubts about such an Emperor.

 >QUOTE
 >>Well, then, all I can say is how could they lose? 
 >>Even if the Imperium were forced all the way back to
 >>Mora and Trin, they would still meet this "goal".  
 >>But I would have to say that such a goal originates in
 >>Zhodane, not the Imperium.
 >END QUOTE
 >
 >I would agree with you. There are numerous hints
 >throughout canon on Zhodani manipulation of Imperial
 >high commanders. The Zho's may even be conducting a
 >psychohistory campaign against Imperial worlds in
 >general.

And here in this newsletter.

 >Maybe the Zho's
 >will resort to scorched earth or even nuclear
 >bombardment of Imperial worlds if they feel they are
 >losing too badly.

I dunno ... if they're losing badly already, and they do that, then they'll 
get back twice as bad as they give.  Unless they believe in the futility of 
life and the beauty of death, I can't see them or anyone doing that.  I'd see 
them instead playing to their strength and leaving as many hidden psi talents 
behind as possible to conduct guerilla warfare, espionage, spying, and 
undermining from within to prepare for the return of Zhodani rule if they can 
achieve it.  Dealing with this would be a major Imperial commitment, 
occupying at least a generation, and would be a better buffer against 
Imperial advance than any scorched earth.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 15 23:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 22:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
Message-ID: <8b.1c8c3f7f.2a8ded7e@aol.com>

 >QUOTE
 >>He stated that it was his opinion that the French were
 >>passing along these flight plans to the NVA.
 >END QUOTE
 >
 >This would make a great campaign. Especially if the
 >players where Imperial Intelligence Agents of some
 >description.

You're right, it most certainly would.  Man, just thinking about it, the 
ideas come rolling in ....

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 00:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 15 23:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Victory in the Frontier Wars
Message-ID: <aa.1024aea9.2a8df11b@aol.com>

 >>Personally, if I were in charge, and I were to look at this 500 year
 >>history of retreat in the face of a technologically inferior
 >>opponent, I'd have to ask "What are we doing wrong here?" and then
 >>fix it.
 >
 >Suppose you were Strephon or even Styryx.  How important is the
 >frontier to life at court?

Good question.  Impossible to say -- this is, after all, a game where the 
referee sets his own world conditions.  If it's like the late degraded Roman 
Empire, then yes, they may disregard it.  If it's like the British Empire on 
which the sun never set, they would respond to it.  I've heard it said, I 
can't remember where, that anyone who assaulted the British Empire knew that 
someday, next week or ten years later, the British troops would finally show 
up and something bad would happen to whoever had insulted them.  If the 
Imperium really is a rule of men and not ideas then it would vary from 
Emperor to Emperor -- but I would say that serious Emperors would attempt to 
make up for any laxity of predecessors.  In any case, Deneb would not ignore 
it.  Personally I would go with the British model, but if someone likes the 
drunken Emperor or Zhodani mole better then I'm sure there are just as many 
gaming opportunities with those approaches.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 00:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Aug 15 23:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E0D@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020815231510.009f6850@mindspring.com>

At 06:36 PM 8/15/02 -0400, you wrote:

> >Well, being selected for sniper training does generally imply that the
> >people doing the selection think you have the mentality to be able to look
> >closely at people and then shoot them, which is one of those mental 
> traits that
> >make other people nervous.
>
>Why is that different from any serviceman? Every Marine, from cook to
>commandant, is expected to use his weapon to kill individual enemies if
>neccessary. Same goes for Army infantry.

Soldiers in combat tend to think in terms of "I'm firing in self defense" 
or "I can't let the team down."  Snipers go out alone or in 2-man teams and 
hunt specific targets of high value.

>The biggest asset for a sniper is not cold-bloodedness or the will to kill,
>but an unnatural amount of patience, the ability to refrain from moving so
>much as an eyebrow for umpteen hours, and of course a steady aim.
>I sure as hell couldn't do it. Just give me my Dragon and show me where the
>tanks are.

It takes a special amount of patience.  Being a natural shot helps.

>In my experience snipers are very calm, easygoing, and fairly mellow. Not
>wild-eyed Whitmans and Oswalds.

On the contrary.  Whitman showed an amazing level of preparation and site 
work.  He picked a location that gave him amazing sight lines,  made most 
of his shots count, and could have held off the police for some time.  In 
the interest of avoiding a flame war, I shall refrain from giving my 
opinion of Oswald.  :)


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Some days, you just can't get rid  of a bomb!"
                     -Adam West, as Batman 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 00:24:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Aug 15 23:24:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1029447384.1653.ajackson@ping>
References: <200208152127.MVU00119@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020815232004.009f60d0@mindspring.com>

At 02:36 PM 8/15/02 -0700, you wrote:
>John T. Kwon writes:
>
> > Actually, if you've been to either the Army or Marine Sniper
> > training, I would regard you as less likely to do something
> > stupid with a rifle than almost anyone else.
>
>Well, being selected for sniper training does generally imply that the people
>doing the selection think you have the mentality to be able to look closely at
>people and then shoot them, which is one of those mental traits that make 
>other
>people nervous.

Not just that, but evaluate and choose the person who will be killed.  You 
have to be able to say "I will kill that Colonel first, then the radioman." 
and do it.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 00:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Aug 15 23:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <00a701c24484$67ca7ad0$67e84242@upstairs>
Message-ID: <20815.223252.7m6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jens Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
>> That a photon creates an interference pattern with itself means simply
>> this: That viewing a photon as a particle is not correct.
>
>> Photons can in some situations (excitation/de-excitation of atoms for
>> example) be viewed as particles, in other situations (interference
>> patterns etc) they can be viewed as waves. To say that they are simply
>> particles (or simply waves) is not completely true.
>
>> Unless, off course, you consider the fact that this dual nature is
> true
>> for all particles...  ;-)
>
> Ah I see. =) How does one properly view
> what-I-was-mostly-taught-was-particles to be waves?

That's what the equations tell you. For example, the wavelength of a
particle is smaller the more massive the particle is. 

> I tend to imagine waves as being always "in-motion"...and it makes it
> hard for me to imagine how all the things I see around me as solid
> constructs can act as waves.

The wavelength of a rock is so small it'd only be an issue under *very*
unusual conditions.

The wavelength of an atome is sometimes important. The wavelength of a
proton is very important. And the wavelength of an electron is almost
overwhelmingly important. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 00:43:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mikko V.I. Parviainen)
Date: Thu Aug 15 23:43:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
In-Reply-To: <135.12f79829.2a8dca55@aol.com>
References: <135.12f79829.2a8dca55@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020816064215.GA2226@mimosa.hut.fi>

On Thu, Aug 15, 2002 at 11:24:05PM -0400, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> >Well, and the fact that the _player_ doesn't face real repercussions
> >when his _character_ is shot at.  Much as in a FPS players charge into
> >gunfire, knowing that they probably won't die, so too do players in
> >RPGs act much more brashly than they would in real life.
> 
> I've always felt that was one of the major attractions of roleplaying games. 
> It's cathartic, theraputic, and stress reducing.

Also, some RPGs are designed with that in mind. :-)

http://iki.fi/marjola/neo/ 

(I think I have had a character survive a mission something like three times.
On about 20 missions, with about 20 varans... :-)

-- 
Mikko Parviainen
"I quote signatures."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 00:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Aug 15 23:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <172.d0dae41.2a8d729e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020815232353.009f4100@mindspring.com>

At 05:09 PM 8/15/02 -0400, you wrote:

>So, the Zhodies are free to attack at will, while the Imperials are afraid of
>precipitating "border disputes".  Sounds like a policy tailor-made in
>Zhodane.  Maybe it is.

Or a policy tailor made to stop the string of defeats at the hands of the 
Zhodani.

>No, I wouldn't lose my job and be stripped of all my titles.  I'd resign, and
>I'd say why.  Loudly.

Does the term "Exile World" mean anything to you?  The Imperium does not 
have a gurantee of freedom of speech.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 00:54:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Aug 15 23:54:50 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <2d.21aebda9.2a8da04e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020815232702.009f7280@mindspring.com>

At 08:24 PM 8/15/02 -0400, you wrote:
> >Remember MacArthur!
>
>Indeed, that is exactly who I was thinking of.  And if North Korea ever uses
>a nuclear weapon anywhere on us or South Korea there will be a lot of
>recrimination regarding his dismissal for insubordination.

It's been 49 years.  The Korean War would have ended in 1951 had Mac 
listened to his orders and stopped short of the Yalu.  But no, Dugout Doug 
had to threaten Mao and provoke a massive attack.  After the Chinese came 
in, there was no hope of dismantling the DPRK.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 00:55:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Aug 15 23:55:39 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <c5.276f2f24.2a8da970@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020815232919.009f8020@mindspring.com>

At 09:03 PM 8/15/02 -0400, you wrote:

>  >Remember:  The military is under the control of the civilian power
>  >structure.
>
>In the Imperium?  With a rule of men, not laws?

Yep.  All those folks with titles like "Baron" and "Duchess", not to 
mention the guy wearing the Iridium Crown.  There are numerous examples of 
people reigning their commissions to take their position as a peer of the 
realm.

>  >What is to be gained by attacking the Consulate?  Nothing that
>  >I can see.  What would the war goals be?
>
>Disruption of _their_ supply lines, disruption of _their_ economic ability to
>wage war, destruction of _their_ repair facilities, frightening of _their_
>leaders and population, sitting on _their_ lines of retreat.  They attack, I
>attack.  They violate borders, I ignore theirs.

To what end?  What is your strategic goal?  Remember their center of power 
is much closer than yours.

>  >In the Marches?  For the Zhodani, keeping the Imperium off balance and
>  >afraid of the Zhodani.  The Imperium wants to maintain the status
>  >quo.  Both sides appear to be happy with the current balance of power.
>
>The Imperium is happy with being off-balance and afraid of the Zhodani?  I
>wouldn't be.  And I don't think the Zhodani are either.  They've been
>launching wars of aggression and capturing territory for 500 years -- why
>would they stop?

The border has been fairly stable since the end of the 2FW. (Source: The 
Spinward Marches Campaign).  the 3rd and 4th wars were barely worth 
speaking about.  The 5th was the first serious set of attacks in four 
centuries.  And they were dealt with.  What would be gained by attacking 
Zhodane directly?

>  >The Fifth Frontier War was a clear victory for the Imperium without taking
>  >any more real estate than Esalin.  Why?  It shattered the Sword Worlds, 
> and
>  >broke several Zhodani fleets.  The message was clear:  Attack at your own
>  >risk.  I think that we will now see a century of peace between the
>  >Consulate and the Imperium.
>
>(looking back ... hm)  I'm unfamiliar with the Fifth -- all I have is the
>original books.  But frankly, I don't see why it wasn't that way in the first
>place, unless the Imperium has only recently obtained technical superiority
>over the Zhodani.

The Imperium has always had a slight edge in technology.  But the first two 
wars saw Imperial colonies forced out of Zhodani space.  They showed that 
they could take advantage of their shorter lines of communication to bring 
local superiority when needed.  Ever since then, the Zhodani have been 
creating a buffer zone.  The Sword Worlds, the Federation of Arden, and the 
Vargr states all seal off the Zhodani from an Imperium they see as a vile 
and lawless place.

>

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 00:56:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Aug 15 23:56:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value
 targets)
In-Reply-To: <194.b959f41.2a8de414@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020815234532.009f9160@mindspring.com>

At 01:13 AM 8/16/02 -0400, you wrote:

>I hadn't thought I was looking for any motivation on their part.  They keep
>aggressively coming -- does the why matter?  And even if you knew the genuine
>why at any given time, how could you seek to come to terms with it except by
>defeating it?

Of course it matters!  If I come over and beat the crap out of you every 
week, which would be better?  Hoping you can beat me up, or finding out why 
i was doing this and getting me to stop.

My take on the motivations:

1st and 2nd War.  Removal of Imperial colonies from Consulate-claimed space.

3rd War. Destabilization of the Spinward Marches during a tense period.

4th War.  A mistake.  Border incidents flare out of control and set off 
trigger plans.

5th War.  Destabilize the Jewell and Regina subsectors.  Optimal outcome 
would be improvement of buffer zone along Jewell front.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 01:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 16 00:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Old RICE Papers for use as "Landgrabs"
Message-ID: <OF98381BAE.5F399F45-ONCA256C17.0027C7DA-CA256C17.00286BCC@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

For those interested in claiming worlds for the Landgrab, here is a list 
of worlds that have been documented as RICE Papers - that is, for TNE. 
Note that this means their earlier (1120) history has also been done. All 
of these have appeared on the TML, some as far back as 1995. They may - or 
may not - appear on the current Landgrab list.

Yes, I have them as Word documents, and I'm too lazy to scrub ".doc" off 
the filenames.

Spinward Marches sector

RICE Paper #SM-1005 - Ruby (Jewell - SM 1005).doc
RICE Paper #SM-1006 - Emerald (Jewell - SM 1006).doc
RICE Paper #SM-1106 - Jewell (Jewell - SM 1106).doc
RICE Paper #SM-1106a - The Jewell Cup (Jewell - Jewell - SM 1106).doc
RICE Paper #SM-1210 - Pequan (Jewell - SM 1210).doc
RICE Paper #SM-1520 - Tavonni (Vilis - SM 1520).doc
RICE Paper #SM-1537 - Mertactor (Plankwell - SM 1537).doc
RICE Paper #SM-1803 - Efate (Regina - SM 1803).doc
RICE Paper #SM-1803 - Menorb (Regina - SM 1803).doc
RICE Paper #SM-2228 - Persephone (Lunion - SM 2228).doc
RICE Paper #SM-2233 - Tirem (Glisten - SM 2233).doc
RICE Paper #SM-2324 - Capon (Lunion - SM 2324).doc
RICE Paper #SM-2715 - Porozlo (Rhylanor - SM 2715).doc
RICE Paper #SM-2716 - Rhylanor (Rhylanor - SM 2716).doc
RICE Paper #SM-2814 - Jae Tellona (Rhylanor - SM 2814).doc
RICE Paper #SM-2818 - Gerome (Rhylanor - SM 2818).doc
RICE Paper #SM-2828 - Hexos (Mora - SM 2828).doc
RICE Paper #SM-3107 - Lewis (Aramis - SM 3107).doc
RICE Paper #SM-3112 - Nutema (Rhylanor - SM 3112).doc
RICE Paper #SM-3233 - Dojodo (Mora - SM 3233).doc
World Discussion - Victoria (Lanth - SM).doc

Deneb sector

RICE Paper #DB-0917 - Kubishush (Inar - Deneb 0917).doc
RICE Paper #DB-0921 - Northammon (Vincennes - Deneb 0921).doc
RICE Paper #DB-1122 - Vincennes (Vincennes - Deneb 1122).doc
RICE Paper #DB-1128 - Dekha (Vincennes - Deneb 1128).doc
RICE Paper #DB-1406 - Borlund (Lamas - Deneb 1406).doc
RICE Paper #DB-1623 - HRD (Vincennes - Deneb 1623).doc
RICE Paper #DB-1808 - Antra (Antra - Deneb 1808).doc
RICE Paper #DB-1925 - Deneb (Usani - Deneb 1925).doc

I'm off for the weekend, but can be contaced either through the TML when 
I'm back on Manday, or better still via my home email (see below).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------



Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 01:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Fri Aug 16 00:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value  targets)
Message-ID: <02fc01c244f7$b6c57540$3dddd63f@customer>

Flykiller wrote:
<snip>
>I'd see them instead playing to their strength and leaving as many hidden
psi talents
> behind as possible to conduct guerilla warfare, espionage, spying, and
> undermining from within to prepare for the return of Zhodani rule if they
can
> achieve it.  Dealing with this would be a major Imperial commitment,
> occupying at least a generation, and would be a better buffer against
> Imperial advance than any scorched earth.

I think you've just given the best reason why the Imperium does not want
those Zhodani occupied worlds back. There may have been a time when the
Imperials wanted those worlds back, but that time has past.  The average
Imperial citizen treat Psi's with anything from mild distaste to outright
murderous rage.  Do you think the Imperium wants 100 of thousands to maybe
millions of Psi's to deal with?

John Scarlett
-------------------------------
History is a pack of lies about events that never happened told by people
who weren't there.
- George Santayana





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 02:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Brian Caball)
Date: Fri Aug 16 01:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day
In-Reply-To: <p04330102b9818aede040@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <p04330102b9818aede040@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <02081609265409.09764@avlendris>

On Thursday 15 August 2002 17:46, you wrote:
> >At 4:32 PM -0400 8/10/02, John T. Kwon wrote:
> >>The major clears his throat.  He knows Groth is working hard,
> >>but he's never gotten used to the idea of men growling and
> >>barking like dogs.
> >
> >Actually, it won't be "like dogs".  There will be some resemblance,
> >but the language needs to be more complex to carry info.  I probably
> >has the same similarity to barking that our speech has to a the
> >sounds a monkey can make (less if you think that the sonds a monkey
> >makes are more expressive).

I dunno... Vargr are uplifted *wolves*, and not dogs. Only wolf cubs Bark... 
grown-up wolves have outgrown this silly and puppyish habit. Wolves 
communicate with various whines, whuffs and whimpers, as well as scent, 
facial expression, and posture. And of course their famous howl. I would 
imagine that Vargr communication would be more like this than Barking. 
Perhaps vargr bark when excited. 

-Brian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 03:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Fri Aug 16 02:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
In-Reply-To: <OFAE287A02.39094288-ONCA256C16.0083C037-CA256C17.0013FE8D@centrelink.gov.au>
References: <OFAE287A02.39094288-ONCA256C16.0083C037-CA256C17.0013FE8D@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20020816111308.30916b1a.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:38:20 +1000
david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:

> Actually, my thought for the Family was the old Cadillac font. Y'know,
> the running-writing that all links along the bottom of the page as
> though there was a ruler there, constraining the writer. It was on
> those pink Cadillacs. I've been trying - fairly unsuccessfully - to
> find a good example, but try this:
>         http://www.car-nection.com/yann/Dbas_ima/56elscrp.JPG

Ditzie: "Where's the caddy?"

HE: "The what?"

Ditzie: "The car we used to have, the Spof-mobile?"

HE: "I traded it."

Ditzie: "You traded the Spof-mobile for THIS?"

HE: "No. For PMPG ammunition."

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 03:46:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Fri Aug 16 02:46:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day
In-Reply-To: <02081609265409.09764@avlendris>
References: <p04330102b9818aede040@[143.232.119.186]>
 <02081609265409.09764@avlendris>
Message-ID: <20020816111842.0da7a0ac.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 09:26:54 +0100
Brian Caball <boc@raidtec.ie> wrote:

> I dunno... Vargr are uplifted *wolves*, and not dogs. Only wolf cubs
> Bark... grown-up wolves have outgrown this silly and puppyish habit.
> Wolves communicate with various whines, whuffs and whimpers, as well
> as scent, facial expression, and posture. And of course their famous
> howl. I would imagine that Vargr communication would be more like this
> than Barking. Perhaps vargr bark when excited. 

In that case, barking would be the equivalent to jumping up and down and
saying "I want to, I want to, I want to."

And I agree with you there. I like the image of a Vargr sneaking up
behind some offworlder's back, putting a knife against his throat and
growling a broken "Move and die, Impie scum". That's not really possible
if they bark for normal communication, they'd probably tranfer that to
other languages as well... kind of like shouting short syllables at a
time.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 03:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Volker)
Date: Fri Aug 16 02:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] EABA & Traveller
In-Reply-To: <20020815.185102.-170149.0.Knightsky@juno.com>
References: <20020815.185102.-170149.0.Knightsky@juno.com>
Message-ID: <11225687302.20020816185152@greimann.de>


Am 2002&#8221;N8&#338;&#381;16&#8220;, las ich folgendes:


>> that EABA is now available. More than that, I talked with Marc
>> Miller at  GenCon, and he is not averse to an EABA Traveller.
Sounds interesting...

> "I think it's time we blow this scene...
> Get everybody and their stuff together...
> Okay, 3, 2, 1... LET'S JAM!"
Hehe, Cowboy Bebop, one must love that show...





-- 
*** Volker Greimann * volker@greimann.de ***
******  Long live Emperor Strephon!  *******


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 10:29:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 16 09:29:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Anti-mime test, ignore
Message-ID: <29.2bcea405.2a8e61cc@cs.com>

anti-mime test


--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/html
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 10:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Aug 16 09:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E16@USCHM203>

>Douglas Berry wrote:
>On the contrary.  Whitman showed an amazing level of preparation and >>site

>work.  He picked a location that gave him amazing sight lines,  made >>most

>of his shots count, and could have held off the police for some time.

Well, he WAS a Marine...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 10:38:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Fri Aug 16 09:38:40 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Arbellatra
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEMFCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFOELODFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

From my experience in the 80' and early 90's I'd say definetely.  I was
fortunate to only have 4 other officers locally so it wasn't bank breaking.
In the RN it's normal (or at least prudent) to include a few crates of bear
and bottles to the Petty Officers mess at the same time   :)

One other huge expense for junior officers back then was full scale mess
dinners like Trafalgar Night.  As a lowly subbie I had the financial
misfortune to attend a Trafalgar dinner 2 months after promotion.  My mess
dress and Mess bill for that night was about 3 months pay in total.

> -----Original Message-----
> On Behalf Of Glenn M. Goffin
> Sent: 12 August 2002 08:11
>
> Do real navies have the custom of "wetting down" a new stripe so that it
> will stick?  I read a novel once in which a USN officer was promoted while
> serving on a ship, and he had to throw a drinking party for all
> of the other
> officers at a nice restaurant at their next port of call (which was in
> Spain, as I recall).  He had to take an advance on his next few
> paychecks to cover it.  In any event, this could be a fun piece to throw
into
> a Traveller game.  (And where do you think that Carousing skill comes
from, anyway?)

 Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the
shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser
gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to
die." Replicant Roy Batty (Rutger Haur) Blade Runner


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 10:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Aug 16 09:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <3D5C6D32.8010206@usisp.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029515927.4165.ajackson@ping>

richard honeycutt writes:

>     I have decided that because of overly simplified portions of the 
> uwp, tech level distribution is flawed.

That, at least, I agree with.
> Tech levels should follow population, not starport availability. You 
> have to have enough people to build technology to have it.
Not in a high trade Imperium.  You just have to be able to afford to import it,
which probably means you have _some_ industries producing high value goods.

In the real world, there's nothing equivalent to a traveller low-tech world;
no-one (other than hobbyists) builds TL 4 ships, for example.  What you have
are poor countries and rich countries.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 10:42:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Aug 16 09:42:04 2002
Subject: [TML] The Limits of Imperial Intervention
In-Reply-To: <200208160058.MWB01944@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029515120.1406.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:

> Maybe it would be a powerful psychological weapon if it was 
> well-known.  One of the proposals is a 24-satellite SBL 
> setup.  Near 100% coverage of the whole world at any time.  
> Such a weapon could also deny launch capability for 
> commercial purposes.

Well, until someone shoots it down.  Challenging for a third world nation, of
course, but it's significantly easier to build a weapon on the ground that will
shoot down a satellite than to build a weapon to put on a satellite to shoot
ground targets.  Satellites aren't exactly invulnerable to lasers either.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 10:42:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Aug 16 09:42:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockheads Unite!
In-Reply-To: <bd.257b327f.2a8ddd6a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029514951.6967.ajackson@ping>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
> 
> Actually, it looks doable for an A7 world. 

Oh, no question that it's _doable_.  Question is whether that's how you
envision the Imperium.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 10:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Aug 16 09:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
References: <2d.21aebda9.2a8da04e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D5D1DA4.40605@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>  >Remember MacArthur!
> 
> Indeed, that is exactly who I was thinking of.  And if North Korea ever uses 
> a nuclear weapon anywhere on us or South Korea there will be a lot of 
> recrimination regarding his dismissal for insubordination.

What!!?? From net-wackos and right-wing loonies, perhaps, but nothing 
serious.

MacArthur invading or using nukes on China *would* have most likely 
dragged Russia into the fray, precipitated WWIII, with lots of nukes 
being tossed around. At that point Russia only had 50-100 weapons, and 
we had some 500-1000 (source: 
<http://www.nrdc.org/nuclear/nudb/datab19.asp> ) BUT they had the 
advantage that we could not have recovered from being bombed as quickly 
as the still widely dispersed, secret and hidden soviet facilities.

They could make more...

Moreover MacArthur *was* guilty of insubordination. That *was* a 
court-martial offense. He got off *easy* by being allowed to resign.

WWIII in 1952 would have been bad.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 10:46:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Aug 16 09:46:52 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #935 - 24 msgs
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E11@USCHM203>

>Tod Glenn wrote:


>Curious.  I am 5'10" and was about average for an infantryman when I was in
>(1980s).  We have a few short fellows, a few big ones. A 5'6" male is
>usually short enough these days to attract comment, assuming he is less
tha=
>n
>about 40 years of age.

>According to the department of Health and Human Services, the Average
>American male is 5' 9.1" tall (The average female is 5' 3.7").  Doing some
>research, I find that the average US soldier was 5'7" --In the Spanish
>American war.  I suspect that the average soldier today is slightly above
>the national average.  About 5'10 for males.  I don't remember Marines
bein=
>g
>that much smaller than us Army pukes.

I'm 5'8". Barely. Which was about average, though perhaps I just didn't
"feel" shorter than anyone close to that height. It was by no means short,
whatever the national average. My Senior DI and one of our assistant DIs in
boot camp were my height. The other was 6'7"(he liked to say 5' 19") and was
basically a giant(green, but not very jolly).
My first Gunny was perhaps an inch taller than me. My 1st Sergeant was a
little shorter than me, and had been a tunnel rat in 'Nam. Not someone you
would ever mess with.
Even my company commander was a stocky guy about 5'9.
I can't quote statistics, but I can honestly only think of a handful of guys
in my company who were taller than 5'10. Perhaps 8 or 10 out of 60.
Perhaps guys like my giant DI throw the curve off. I'd still say 90% of the
guys I served with fell between 5'7 and 5'10 (I'll conced an inch on my
original statement).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 10:49:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug 16 09:49:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <c5.276f2f24.2a8da970@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D5D889C.12003.1B6A55@localhost>

On 15 Aug 2002 at 21:03, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> The Imperium is happy with being off-balance and afraid of the
> Zhodani?  I wouldn't be.  And I don't think the Zhodani are either. 
> They've been launching wars of aggression and capturing territory
> for 500 years -- why would they stop? 

Because the Zhodani don't actually want more territory. They just want 
the Imperium a comfortable distance away. The extra territory they 
picked up (and most of it was made independent rather than incorporated 
into the Consulate) was a means, not an end.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 10:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Aug 16 09:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E12@USCHM203>

Re: Height in the service

Height aside, my main point was that the average infantry squad, in both
build and fitness, will resemble a soccer team more than a football
team(that's American Football for those across the pond).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 10:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug 16 09:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #935 - 24 msgs
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E11@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <B9827C90.69FFE%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/16/02 6:56 AM, Hurrel, Brian at brian.hurrel@eds.com wrote:

> I can't quote statistics, but I can honestly only think of a handful of g=
uys
> in my company who were taller than 5'10. Perhaps 8 or 10 out of 60.
> Perhaps guys like my giant DI throw the curve off. I'd still say 90% of t=
he
> guys I served with fell between 5'7 and 5'10 (I'll conced an inch on my
> original statement).

Maybe shorter men are drawn to the Marines (Small man complex?), or the
Marines prefers more compact personnel for easier storage <g>.

I just find it interesting that the average male soldier or Marine would be
smaller than the average adult US male.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 11:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri Aug 16 10:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F1675@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

LOL!
Jesse

> Ditzie: "Where's the caddy?"
> 
> HE: "The what?"
> 
> Ditzie: "The car we used to have, the Spof-mobile?"
> 
> HE: "I traded it."
> 
> Ditzie: "You traded the Spof-mobile for THIS?"
> 
> HE: "No. For PMPG ammunition."
> 
> * Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
> | jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
> | ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
> * http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 11:04:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug 16 10:04:04 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <a7.251d2f62.2a8db4d6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D5D8AAD.4507.237C6E@localhost>

On 15 Aug 2002 at 21:52, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> They retreated because they were losing (and badly -- Stalin had shot much of 
> his officer corps a few years before).  If the German command had planned 
> better, they _would_ have lost in spite of any amount of retreating.  And 
> there is no Russian Winter in space.

There is however the effect of extended supply lines and raiding on 
them - just as there was in Russia.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 11:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 16 10:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <50e6bd50ea8e.50ea8e50e6bd@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Damage169@cs.com
Date: Thursday, August 15, 2002 6:14 am
Subject: Re: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D

> In a message dated 8/14/02 10:13:44 PM Central Daylight Time, 
> lesbates@minn.net writes:
> 
> 
> > Got it.
> > 
> > "No Ditzie, you can't test your fusion powered engraver on poor 
> Mr. Grimes'
> > headstone."

Shouldn't that be "mayn't," rather than "can't"?
> 
> At least that means there's a body left.

If a pair of ash-filled smoking boots counts as a "body." ;-)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 11:11:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug 16 10:11:13 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <8d.1cb5daf1.2a8dbaf4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D5D8CA4.1408.2B2A6B@localhost>

On 15 Aug 2002 at 22:18, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>  >WWI was a war notable for the imbalance between attack and defense.  Due to 
> the
>  >mechanics of force concentration in Traveller, unless you posit _very_
>  >effective ground batteries (which one might; buried meson sites can be 
> pretty
>  >tough) the fact that in Traveller it's very hard to intercept an enemy fleet
>  >means that the balance tends to favor the offense.
> 
> Are there any official rules for ground batteries?  I've made up some of my 
> own, and they make sense to me, but I'd like to hear what else has been done.
> 
> I agree about the dominance of offense.  That's why I think a policy of 
> "defense" in this environment is bound to lose.

I don't think that offense is dominant unless the attacker is able to 
mobilise all their constuction under one command. This could well be 
why the Zhos do comparitively well - they have far more control over 
their total naval power than the Imperium does. Much of the the 
Imperium's military hardware is woned by its member worlds, and they 
would almost certainly build non-jump vessels in preference to jump-
ships that are less effective combatants and more easily 'mobilised' 
away from their homes by the Imperium.

Another point is that a 'defensive' policy need not rely on 'defence', 
but can instead use offensive tactics. In fact this is what the 
Imperium's strategy in the Fifth Frontier War was, though they did 
choose to fight the battle in their own territory which, as any Russian 
can tell you, is often not the brightest way of doing things.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 11:12:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Aug 16 10:12:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E17@USCHM203>

>Douglas Berry wrote:

>[re snipers]

>Not just that, but evaluate and choose the person who will be killed.  >You
have to be able to say "I will kill that Colonel first, then the radioman." 
>and do it.

Agreed. Snipers must have a much higher level of initiative, independence,
and confidence than the average infantryman. Not everyone, especially at
younger ages, lower rank, and comparitively little time in uniform, as many
snipers are, is comfortable with having the burden of such life and death
decision-making fall on them. A single shot can decide the outcome of a
battle.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 11:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Fri Aug 16 10:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day
In-Reply-To: <200208102032.MMN00082@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFGELMDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

KEYBOARD KILL, damn and blast it, sheesh I'm really in trouble now.  Gotta
clean this before, the MUCH better half gets back and wants to play.

Thanks :)

> -----Original Message-----
> On Behalf Of John T. Kwon
> Sent: 10 August 2002 21:33
>
> Groth has another long night as SDNCO.  Routine, and
> routinely boring.  After all, Imperial peacekeeping duty on
> Garda-Vilis has been going on for over 20 years....
>
> Still, he's trying to keep sharp, and learn new skills.  He's
> hoping to improve his language skill in Vargr.
>
> The corporal sitting next to him is engrossed in the latest
> military tri-D.  Groth goes into the battalion office -
> hopefully he can keep this private.
>
> Unbeknownst to Groth, the S3 is keeping a late night, and
> comes around to the office area.  Groth, engrossed in his
> woofing, doesn't notice the major looking at him.
>
> The major clears his throat.  He knows Groth is working hard,
> but he's never gotten used to the idea of men growling and
> barking like dogs.
>
> "Carry on, sergeant."

 Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the
shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser
gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to
die." Replicant Roy Batty (Rutger Haur) Blade Runner


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 11:18:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Fri Aug 16 10:18:50 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020810093741.009f6d90@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFGELLDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

Nice to see this comment from a published author.  One reason I have always
loved traveller is the vastness of the game leaves room for your
imagination - you know the thing we all play RPG's for.  :)

> -----Original Message-----
On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
> Sent: 10 August 2002 17:54

- - - - big snip of good stuff - - - - - -

> Which is a healthy attitude.  After Ground Forces came out, i received a
> *scathing* email from a customer who quite literally told me he was going
> to complain to Steve Jackson and Marc Miller, through my book in the
> furnace, and demand that I never be hired to write another word for
> Traveller because I was a complete moron who obviously was out to
> ruin the
> entire game.  Why?
>
> Because I put the Marines into kilts as part of their full dress
> uniform.  One paragraph, in a sidebar.  I wrote the person back and asked
> if he like the rest of the book, and if so, why didn't he ignore
> it?  I put
> it in for a reason, but if it makes him that mad, simply take a black
> Sharpie and line through the offending phrase.  Simple.  He
> actually wrote
> back saying that since it was in the book it meant that he *had* to do
> it.  I gave him official aithor dispensation to not have Marines in
> kilts.  Put 'em in clown suits for all I care.
>
> Everything published, or written here, is subject to the
> interpetation and
> judgement of each player and referee.  Use what you want, change what you
> like, ignore that which annoys you.  This was part of the reason I
> suggested the Landgrab.. get involvement from people so we could
> see their
> views of this universe.  Nobody *has* to use them, but they make for some
> interesting data points.

The data points are great starting points for your imagination too.

Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the
shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser
gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to
die." Replicant Roy Batty (Rutger Haur) Blade Runner


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 11:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Aug 16 10:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day
In-Reply-To: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFGELMDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020816173457.29667.qmail@web20905.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Peter Scarrott
<peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> KEYBOARD KILL, damn and blast it, sheesh I'm really
> in trouble now.  Gotta
> clean this before, the MUCH better half gets back
> and wants to play.

You are in more trouble that that if your SO comes
home and wants to play and uses a keyboard to do it! 
Or is there a different use for a keyboard that I'm
missing?

;)


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 11:38:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Aug 16 10:38:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Motown Keyboard Kill
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E15@USCHM203>

> Nick Wright wrote :
>> Frankie (Munden) wrote:
>>
>> "I know Loren, Martin and John,    ...."
>>
>> Keyboard Kill, Sir.
>
> I have to admit that this kill was completely unintended.
> So unintended, in fact, that I still don't get it.
> Can you let me in on the joke, please?
>
> Frankie

>Ever hear of Abraham, Martin, and John - the song?

Unintended! Oh man, that's beautiful. That's got my vote for keyboard kill
of the month.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 11:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug 16 10:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
Message-ID: <200208161743.MXJ01425@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Peter Scarrott says
>Nice to see this comment from a published author.  One 
>reason I have always loved traveller is the vastness of the 
>game leaves room for your imagination - you know the thing 
>we all play RPG's for.  :)

I have Ground Forces and ACQ.  Haven't really started on 
Ground Forces, but I've already marked up ACQ...

And hey, I bought the books (which means an author get 
something, hopefully), and I get to play my way....
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 11:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug 16 10:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
In-Reply-To: <46.2c1dfc1f.2a8decd8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D5D8F2F.1705.351847@localhost>

On 16 Aug 2002 at 1:51, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> Would these Emperors perfer ceding yet more territory to facing
> risk?  What Emperor would issue a standing order consisting of,
> "They may strike us, but you may not strike them"?  This would be an
> aggressor Zhodani admiral's dream.  I would have doubts about such
> an Emperor. 

This sort of policy worked fairly well for the Romans, the Persians and 
the Chinese at various times in their history. Of course at other times 
it didn't - the trick is knowing when to apply these policies and when 
not to.

The Spinward MArches in the 1100s is actually fairly similar to the 
border between the Roman and Parthian empires in the mid-late peroid of 
the Roman Empire - satellite states, the odd border war, but nothing 
major because neither side is particularly expansionistic and there's 
no profit in having a large, expensive and destructive war. In the 
OTU's case I'm sure we can all imagine just how long the various Vargr 
states allied to each side would stay 'allied' to anyone, and just how 
bad the priacy, raiding and looting of both Zhodani and Imperial worlds 
in reach of Vargr shipping would get. Now who wants that to happen over 
a lousy little backwater subsector or two?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 11:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Aug 16 10:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #939 - 25 msgs
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E24@USCHM203>

Tod Glenn wrote:

>Maybe shorter men are drawn to the Marines (Small man complex?), or the
Marines prefers more >>>>compact personnel for easier storage <g>.

LOL. Only 1.5 dTons need be allotted for each ship's troop.

>I just find it interesting that the average male soldier or Marine would be
>smaller than the average adult US male.

Statistics might totally invalidate everything I've said about height, which
are really just subjective memories.
Then again, there might be something to it. Now I'm actually interested in
the statistics. And if Marine Infantry (who, believe it or not, actually
requested that branch for the most part when I was in) differ from other
MOSs within the Corps.

One other thing, and this may be "unofficial", though could go a long way in
explaining this trend. As I mentioned before, they really don't want very
tall guys as 0311s (riflemen). The bigger ones tend to end up in weapons and
mortar companies. I don't know if the Army does this as well.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 12:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug 16 11:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <20815.190814.3X0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20815.190814.3X0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <m3bs82zted.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
> 
> Lots of this violates "common sense", because common sense is based
> on our experience with the way things work at scales were quantum
> effects are mostly invisible.

Whenever I read or hear things like this, I'm tempted to bring up the
dying gasps of the Galenic/alchemical systems...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Opium is the religion of the atheist.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 12:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Aug 16 11:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Aramis ss. navy builds IMTU
Message-ID: <3D5D3D6F.982EE96A@mail.cswnet.com>

>> TL9 Junidy MCr 11550000 
>> Thats right friends! Junidy has 11.5 TC Squadrons.

>Kind of makes a mockery of the Patron in The Traveller Adventure that 
>says he can get you landed on the surfacwe without encountering >customs.

Boy, you said it man! Also makes me wonder what kind off Vargr force
could over run them, since they apparently did this in MT universe.

Hold off on the quadloos and wine. I've got a family medical problem to
take care of, and then my brain is going to have one of those multi page
MRI Centerfold fashion layouts, so its going to take some time out of
the schedule. Trust me, I am working on it.

>What interested me about the Lanth Navies was the Imperial Navy and 
>Scouts info as well as the individual planets. Particularly when most >of them came from Supp 7 or 9.

I'll be brutally honest here. I started this off to do the navies in
Regina and Lunion. Lanth came into the picture first because the budgets
were so paltry, it could be done quickly. I discovered this one night
during a thunderstorm, I couldn't get on the computer to play with HGS,
so I started messing around with sup 9. Since the ships were already
built and used by the IN, the only extras that needed to be worked on
were the colonials. Thats why they are HGS. I've got some of the TL15 IN
aramis fleet done; I want to add the Battleriders/Tender from Spinward
Marches Campaign, but I'll need to redo that with HGS. I've done a
pre-MT version of the Voroshilef as a straight TL13 Battleship; I am
going to use it for Efate, Lunion, and Strouden, but I could add a
batron of these to Aramis IN Fleet as a 'legacy' batron.

>I am intrigued by the Junidy ships that accomodate Llellewyloly and 
>wonder if, because of the political situation, the officers might all >be human with strong division between officers and ratings ala the 
>Gazelle's anti-mutiny provisions.

Phill, you may know more about the LLellewyloly than I do. I'm still
researching the subject. I'm thinking, because of the problems with
atmosphere, that Humans and LLellewyloly have to use different ships.
My thoughts are still unclear on this matter. 

This is a very preliminary whipped up version of the Junidy Fleet;
bear in mind that I may trash all this next week after some more
LLellewloly research:

300x BB9 Battleships [J1]
50x CV9 Very Light Fighter Carriers with 30 TL9 F-5 Imperial Tigers
each [1500 F-5 I tigers total] [J1]
400x LLeelluuloly TL9 System Monitors
500x LLeellyllee Assault Ships [J1]
860x Type A Free Traders [J1]
1001x Type R Submerchants [J1]
130x BB8 Battleships
450x Gornshima TL8 Battleships
50x Type T8 Patrolships
18x "Old Solomani Patrolships" aka UN PKF Patrolships

The Assault Ships, Traders and Submerchants easily transport and support
moving 5C-9 worth of marines/troops, I think. The system monitors and
the TL8 Battleships together total out to 980 ships, close to the 1K
worth of SDB's that Hyphens' Chart has listed. Throw in the TL8 patrol
ships and your there.

More coming as I get time to play.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 12:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Fri Aug 16 11:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Old RICE Papers for use as "Landgrabs"
In-Reply-To: <20020816171803.3291.22720.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020816171803.3291.22720.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <rgfqlucsm4bqjso9p8h0h82g17bdk48vf1@4ax.com>

On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:18:03 -0700, david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
wrote:

>Dear Folks -

>For those interested in claiming worlds for the Landgrab, here is a list 
>of worlds that have been documented as RICE Papers - that is, for TNE. 
>Note that this means their earlier (1120) history has also been done. All 
>of these have appeared on the TML, some as far back as 1995. They may - or 
>may not - appear on the current Landgrab list.

>Yes, I have them as Word documents, and I'm too lazy to scrub ".doc" off 
>the filenames.

If you can point me to a URI, and if the respective authors will give
permission, I'll snarf them, convert them to HTML, and post them to the
RICE Archives at Freelance Traveller.

Incidentally, the original idea for numbering the RICE Papers was going to
be two or three letters for the initials of the author, then five digits
representing the release date - two digits for the year (presumably after
1200) and three digits for the day of the year (so that a RICE Paper by
Ditzie Spofulam (perish the thought!) released on 005-1201 would carry a
number of DS-01005).  The RICE Paper with no subsequent letters would be
the 'core' Paper, giving an overview of the world in question; subsequent
papers on specific aspects of the world would receive a letter afterward
(DS-01005A), and if the topic could be broken down further, alternate
letters and numbers (e.g., DS-01005A1B2C3D4).  Numbers that do not conform
to this system were to be reserved for the use of the Trustees for papers
released for administrative/informational or other purpose (e.g., papers
not connected with specific planets would be released using nonstandard
numbering).

(How do I know this?  Who do you think invented the format in the first
place?)

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 12:13:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug 16 11:13:51 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
In-Reply-To: <200208161743.MXJ01425@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020816110507.009f69d0@mindspring.com>

At 01:43 PM 8/16/02 -0400, you wrote:
>I have Ground Forces and ACQ.  Haven't really started on
>Ground Forces, but I've already marked up ACQ...

Woo Hoo!

>And hey, I bought the books (which means an author get
>something, hopefully), and I get to play my way....

Nothing for ACQ except that deep thrill of someone reading your work and 
not forming a lynch mob.  For Ground Forces I get roughly 27 cents a copy.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 12:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Fri Aug 16 11:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style
In-Reply-To: <002501c2454a$61127050$1001a8c0@sauron>
Message-ID: <20020816181335.16153.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>

> I have sent the text of the article to Dan, but I
> don't seem to have
> seen the post to which Dan was replying.
> 
> If it was you, let me know so I can send the
> article.
> 
> Frankie
Ken Murphy was the person who wanted it also. 
Thanks for the article.

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 12:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug 16 11:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E17@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <B9829075.6A021%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/16/02 8:18 AM, Hurrel, Brian at brian.hurrel@eds.com wrote:

>=20
> Agreed. Snipers must have a much higher level of initiative, independence=
,
> and confidence than the average infantryman. Not everyone, especially at
> younger ages, lower rank, and comparitively little time in uniform, as ma=
ny
> snipers are, is comfortable with having the burden of such life and death
> decision-making fall on them. A single shot can decide the outcome of a
> battle.

Contrary to popular belief, the calculated killing of someone at long range
does not require the special mindset once believed.  In fact, studies seem
to indicate that the more remote the target, the easier (psychologically) t=
o
kill. What generally has the most 'psychological' cost is up close killing,
pr as Grossman puts it, killing at a sexual distance.  Killing someone at
touching distance with a knife, for example, probably requires a much more
'ruthless' mindset than shooting someone at 1000 meters.

That is not to say that snipers don't require a certain mindset, but as has
been mentioned here before, the ability to operate independently and a
profound patience, as well as good field craft are probably more important.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 12:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug 16 11:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #939 - 25 msgs
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E24@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <B98290E0.6A02A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/16/02 10:50 AM, Hurrel, Brian at brian.hurrel@eds.com wrote:

>=20
> One other thing, and this may be "unofficial", though could go a long way=
 in
> explaining this trend. As I mentioned before, they really don't want very
> tall guys as 0311s (riflemen). The bigger ones tend to end up in weapons =
and
> mortar companies. I don't know if the Army does this as well.

As I mentioned, we had a mix, but inevitably and large guys got stuck
carrying the M-60.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 12:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Aug 16 11:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Old RICE Papers for use as "Landgrabs"
Message-ID: <3D5D426D.3DFF4A62@mail.cswnet.com>

On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:18:03 -0700,
david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
wrote:

>Dear Folks -

>For those interested in claiming worlds for the Landgrab, here is a >list of worlds that have been documented as RICE Papers - that is, >for TNE. Note that this means their earlier (1120) history has also >been done. All of these have appeared on the TML, some as far back as >1995. They may - or may not - appear on the current Landgrab list.

Very usefull stuff for nearby systems in this also; I pulled some of the
Tavonni stuff for my Arba landgrab.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 12:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Aug 16 11:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Old RICE Papers for use as "Landgrabs"
Message-ID: <3D5D428D.D4891E8D@mail.cswnet.com>

On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:18:03 -0700,
david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
wrote:

>Dear Folks -

>For those interested in claiming worlds for the Landgrab, here is a >list of worlds that have been documented as RICE Papers - that is, >for TNE. Note that this means their earlier (1120) history has also >been done. All of these have appeared on the TML, some as far back as >1995. They may - or may not - appear on the current Landgrab list.

Very usefull stuff for nearby systems in this also; I pulled some of the
Tavonni stuff for my Arba landgrab.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 12:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 16 11:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
Message-ID: <7a.2b7ecb1b.2a8ea2b1@aol.com>

 What they want is to forestall the Imperials from deciding to expand and
 pushing into Zho space, until eventually it becomes a big fight for
 survival. These limited wars are fought on a tacit understanding that
 they're just border jobs, and... "you don't want this getting any bigger now
 do you?"

But it's the Zhodani who are the aggressor in each war, and it's the Zhodani 
who gain territory in each war.  The intimidation is not to prevent the 
Imperium from expanding into Zhodani space as much as it is to prevent the 
Imperium from resisting Zhodani expansion into Imperial space.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 12:48:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas R Glatz)
Date: Fri Aug 16 11:48:44 2002
Subject: [TML] The Limits of Imperial Intervention
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 15 Aug 2002 20:38:36 EDT."
 <200208160038.MWB00587@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020816184750.BDC3727941@mail.travellercentral.com>

> When the Tigress shows up, and the Imperium is wroth with a 
> particular personage, would it be suicide to step into plain 
> view?  Rather than use all of her mighty weaponry, and 
> wreaking massive damage on a city (or even the whole planet), 
> would it be possible for the Tigress to have a specialized 
> assassination laser?  

heh - Anyone who has annoyed the ArchDuke/Duke enough for that personage to dispach a Tigress (and supporting fleet) to express that annoyance had best know better than to emerge from a very *deep*, very *secure* bunker while said ships are in orbit.  Or to use any but the most secure commo system.  And had best be very nervous *after* the ships leave (unless they counted the number of marines very carefully as they mustered back onboard the ships).

On the other hand, this would be a really good 'coaxial' weapon in the chin turret of a Gazelle Close Escort.  :)  And who would notice a Gazelle making orbit?

'scuse me, my cell phone is ringing ...

douglas



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 12:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug 16 11:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
Message-ID: <20020816185204.95232.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>Loren wrote:
>> I've always felt that was one of the major attractions of 
>>roleplaying games. It's cathartic, theraputic, and stress reducing.

You replied:
>Absolutely!  In a recent PBeM game I was invited to join, it was 
>suggested I play a computer expert.  I do consulting in Real Life
>(tm). The last thing I want to do is role play it.
>
>The fun is being someone you're not, and sometimes, giving vent to 
>all those atavistic urges you've been storing up all week.

A fortiori for the referee.  Where else can I be a hard-nosed,
unsympathetic boss; four tough guys drinking from paper bags; a
distraught clerk freaking out over knowing too much; a drunken,
sobbing Vargr; an overbearing, tyrannical business owner whose
brother runs the local mafia; a pimp; a hooker; a drug addict; and a
college student protesting the status quo -- all in one night! 
That'll be tomorrow night, by the way.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 12:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 16 11:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <e.239639a3.2a8ea44e@aol.com>

 >>No, I wouldn't lose my job and be stripped of all my titles.  I'd resign, 
and
 >>I'd say why.  Loudly.
 >
 >Does the term "Exile World" mean anything to you?  The Imperium does not 
 >have a gurantee of freedom of speech.

Do you really think this threatens someone who is supposed to be brave enough 
to face factor S meson guns?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 12:57:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 16 11:57:51 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <1a8.6e10ff1.2a8ea4f7@aol.com>

 >> >Remember MacArthur!
 >>
 >>Indeed, that is exactly who I was thinking of.  And if North Korea ever 
uses
 >>a nuclear weapon anywhere on us or South Korea there will be a lot of
 >>recrimination regarding his dismissal for insubordination.
 >
 >It's been 49 years.  The Korean War would have ended in 1951 had Mac 
 >listened to his orders and stopped short of the Yalu.  But no, Dugout Doug 
 >had to threaten Mao and provoke a massive attack.  After the Chinese came 
 >in, there was no hope of dismantling the DPRK.

And with the Chinese openly threatening to nuke Los Angeles and openly 
preparing for war with us, I think that merely expands my statement regarding 
his dismissal.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 12:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug 16 11:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Victory in the Frontier Wars
Message-ID: <20020816185805.70578.qmail@web20422.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Flykiller@aol.com

>If the Imperium really is a rule of men and not ideas then it would
>vary from Emperor to Emperor -- but I would say that serious
>Emperors would attempt to make up for any laxity of predecessors.  

Strephon's biography notes that one of his first acts was to
strengthen the Spinward Marches border regions, to which is credited
the quick and mostly successful resolution of the Fourth Frontier War
in 1082.  

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 13:01:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 16 12:01:14 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <156.1290e8ab.2a8ea5ad@aol.com>

 >>  >What is to be gained by attacking the Consulate?  Nothing that
 >>  >I can see.  What would the war goals be?
 >>
 >>Disruption of _their_ supply lines, disruption of _their_ economic ability 
to
 >>wage war, destruction of _their_ repair facilities, frightening of _their_
 >>leaders and population, sitting on _their_ lines of retreat.  They attack, 
I
 >>attack.  They violate borders, I ignore theirs.
 >
 >To what end?  What is your strategic goal?  Remember their center of power 
 >is much closer than yours.

Near as I can figure, your position here is "Don't provoke the Zhodani" -- 
when they are the ones launching wars.  I just don't buy it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 13:12:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Aug 16 12:12:08 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <156.1290e8ab.2a8ea5ad@aol.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029525071.3403.ajackson@ping>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:

> Near as I can figure, your position here is "Don't provoke the Zhodani" -- 
> when they are the ones launching wars.  I just don't buy it.

Well, within the FFW game the reason for not provoking the Zhodani by attacking
behind the lines is because you hit this impenetrable border called 'the edge
of the map' ;)

The truth is, calling the Frontier Wars 'wars' is really pushing it; on the
scale of either side, they're small border skirmishes.  When was the last time
a Hi-pop world changed hands?  The main reason the Imperium doesn't launch
similar raids into nearby Consulate worlds is that historically they've never
really had the forces available to do so.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 13:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 16 12:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value   targets)
Message-ID: <9e.2b05b337.2a8ea9c5@aol.com>

 >>I hadn't thought I was looking for any motivation on their part.  They keep
 >>aggressively coming -- does the why matter?  And even if you knew the 
genuine
 >>why at any given time, how could you seek to come to terms with it except 
by
 >>defeating it?
 >
 >Of course it matters!  If I come over and beat the crap out of you every 
 >week, which would be better?  Hoping you can beat me up, or finding out why 
 >i was doing this and getting me to stop.
 >
 >My take on the motivations:
 >
 >1st and 2nd War.  Removal of Imperial colonies from Consulate-claimed space.

Well, canon makes clear that the areas in question were not 
"Consulate-claimed space", but intermingled colonies.  Further, in subsequent 
wars the Zhodani have moved to capture and claim worlds that originally had 
no Zhodani presence, and force the Imperium to release worlds that had been 
Imperial.  This is aggression, pure and simple, and it deserves a fitting 
answer.  As for your analogy of me being beat up, once again it's an 
encouragement to passivity -- "which is better?  Hoping you can beat me up?" 
-- as if there is no hope of such a result.

But there is.  Zhodane is technologically inferior to the Imperium.  I've 
looked over the maps at Traveller Central.  If they are canon or anything 
near it, then the Imperials heavily outweigh the Zhodani, to put it mildly.  
Yet the Zhodani are on a 500 year four war winning streak.  There's something 
wrong with this picture, and I think that this appeal to passivity is part of 
it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 13:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Aug 16 12:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
References: <1a8.6e10ff1.2a8ea4f7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D5D50B3.1050401@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> And with the Chinese openly threatening to nuke Los Angeles and openly 
> preparing for war with us, I think that merely expands my statement regarding 
> his dismissal.

So WWIII 50 years ago would have solved all our problems?? :-0

LOL!!

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 13:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Aug 16 12:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Victory in the Frontier Wars
References: <aa.1024aea9.2a8df11b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D5D5234.9020206@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
>  >>Personally, if I were in charge, and I were to look at this 500 year
>  >>history of retreat in the face of a technologically inferior
>  >>opponent, I'd have to ask "What are we doing wrong here?" and then
>  >>fix it.
>  >
>  >Suppose you were Strephon or even Styryx.  How important is the
>  >frontier to life at court?
> 
> Good question.  Impossible to say -- this is, after all, a game where the 
> referee sets his own world conditions.  If it's like the late degraded Roman 
> Empire, then yes, they may disregard it.  If it's like the British Empire on 
> which the sun never set, they would respond to it. 

Quick question: Which empire lasted longer? Why?

The British doctrine of responding in force to any and all provocation 
kept them spread out fighting a hundred little brush wars, garrisoning a 
hundred more hellholes all the time.

The Roman empire co-opted the locals into their empire, making *them* 
responsible for garrisoning their own territory.

During the *conquest* they had legions present, and if a rebllion or 
outside threat got serious enough, they'd send troops, but in the main, 
defense of the borders were left to the local governors.


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 13:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Aug 16 12:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Big Guys
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E28@USCHM203>

>Tod Glenn wrote:

>As I mentioned, we had a mix, but inevitably and large guys got stuck
>carrying the M-60.

Same with us. Possibly due to my height, they wanted to make me a rifleman,
and I had to argue, show them my enlistment contract, which explicitly was
for 0351(anti-tank, or Dragon Gunner), and my test scores before they
changed their mind.
One guy actually got an honorable discharge for breach of contract. He had
signed up for communications, and they wanted to stick him in the infantry.
I guess they figured they would bully him into just accepting it, but he
fought it. I assume some pissant REMF decided rather than just transfer him,
they'd get rid of him.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 13:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 16 12:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value  targets)
Message-ID: <dc.1b9f6dc1.2a8ead36@aol.com>

 >>I'd see them instead playing to their strength and leaving as many hidden
 >>psi talents
 >> behind as possible to conduct guerilla warfare, espionage, spying, and
 >> undermining from within to prepare for the return of Zhodani rule if they
 >>can
 >> achieve it.  Dealing with this would be a major Imperial commitment,
 >> occupying at least a generation, and would be a better buffer against
 >> Imperial advance than any scorched earth.
 >
 >I think you've just given the best reason why the Imperium does not want
 >those Zhodani occupied worlds back. There may have been a time when the
 >Imperials wanted those worlds back, but that time has past.  The average
 >Imperial citizen treat Psi's with anything from mild distaste to outright
 >murderous rage.  Do you think the Imperium wants 100 of thousands to maybe
 >millions of Psi's to deal with?

Most Zhodani are not psi.  And most psi's will not be willing to play any 
sort of guerrilla role -- the psi's left behind will not number in the 
hundreds of thousands, let alone millions, especially when there might be 
quite a few proles who are willing to point out psi-capable Zhodani in their 
midst.  A single generation of red zoning, psionic suppression, and 
counter-psi should be sufficient to reduce the psi population to levels 
typical of Imperial planets (The murderous rage you cite is localized -- some 
Imperial planets do have Psi Institutes, after all.)  These wars have been 
going on for 500 years -- a generation of psi suppression is well within this 
time scope.  It's doable -- for an Imperium that isn't afraid.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 13:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 16 12:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockheads Unite!
Message-ID: <f5.207aac43.2a8eae3f@aol.com>

 >> Actually, it looks doable for an A7 world. 
 >
 >Oh, no question that it's _doable_.  Question is whether that's how you
 >envision the Imperium.

Well, you can _envision_ anything you want.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 13:41:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 16 12:41:36 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <24.2a0d2d48.2a8eaf3c@aol.com>

 >> The Imperium is happy with being off-balance and afraid of the
 >> Zhodani?  I wouldn't be.  And I don't think the Zhodani are either. 
 >> They've been launching wars of aggression and capturing territory
 >> for 500 years -- why would they stop? 
 >
 >Because the Zhodani don't actually want more territory. They just want 
 >the Imperium a comfortable distance away.

The record doesn't support that.  Neither do the maps.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 14:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (markc@peak.org)
Date: Fri Aug 16 13:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
Message-ID: <29950-22002851620949759@M2W081.mail2web.com>

John Kwon <jtkwon@jtkgroup=2Ecom> writes:

> I have Ground Forces and ACQ=2E  Haven't really started on=20
> Ground Forces, but I've already marked up ACQ=2E=2E=2E

"Marked up" the book?!?  You heathen!  You *never* mark up
the original book=2E  You photocopy it and mark up the copy!

The original books should stored in poly bags that have been
flushed with dry nitrogen and vacuum sealed, and then stored
in total darkness at a temp=2E of 60 deg=2E F=2E and a relative
humidity of 70%=2E

What do you *mean*, you don't have a light-tight, climate-
controlled library?!?  Get on the stick, man!  Drop whatever
you're doing and call a contractor *NOW*!!

:^)  :^)  :^)  :^)

    - Mark C=2E


--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 14:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri Aug 16 13:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day
In-Reply-To: <02081609265409.09764@avlendris>
References: <p04330102b9818aede040@[143.232.119.186]>
 <02081609265409.09764@avlendris>
Message-ID: <p04330100b9831724a4d1@[198.123.22.171]>

At 9:26 AM +0100 8/16/02, Brian Caball wrote:
>On Thursday 15 August 2002 17:46, you wrote:
>>  >At 4:32 PM -0400 8/10/02, John T. Kwon wrote:
>>  >>The major clears his throat.  He knows Groth is working hard,
>>  >>but he's never gotten used to the idea of men growling and
>>  >>barking like dogs.
>>  >
>>  >Actually, it won't be "like dogs".  There will be some resemblance,
>>  >but the language needs to be more complex to carry info.  I probably
>>  >has the same similarity to barking that our speech has to a the
>>  >sounds a monkey can make (less if you think that the sonds a monkey
>>  >makes are more expressive).
>
>I dunno... Vargr are uplifted *wolves*, and not dogs. Only wolf cubs Bark...
>grown-up wolves have outgrown this silly and puppyish habit. Wolves
>communicate with various whines, whuffs and whimpers, as well as scent,
>facial expression, and posture. And of course their famous howl. I would
>imagine that Vargr communication would be more like this than Barking.
>Perhaps vargr bark when excited.

Of course the Vargr are somewhat evolved and, in the development of 
language, they would have, like humans, made use a fair number of the 
noises they can make, even if the wolves don't use them all.  OTOH, 
we certainly don't use all the sounds we can make (listen one of the 
"click languages").

According to what came our recently in nature, they also would have 
had to aquire the language gene (that we have the chimps don't have) 
thought evolution or genetic engineering by the ancients.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 15:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri Aug 16 14:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
In-Reply-To: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFGELLDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
References: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFGELLDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
Message-ID: <p04330101b983197a3167@[143.232.119.186]>

>  He
>  actually wrote
>  back saying that since it was in the book it meant that he *had* to do
>  it.

How silly.  We all know the only thing that GMs are required to do is 
follow what _I_ say...

(Though I must say enforcement in is has been lacking).

FNORD
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 15:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas R Glatz)
Date: Fri Aug 16 14:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 16 Aug 2002 15:32:06 EDT."
 <dc.1b9f6dc1.2a8ead36@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020816211748.C678E279CB@mail.travellercentral.com>

If I might add a thought or two ...

There is a political element that might well be considered here.  First, the 
Imperium has steadily expanded for the past millenium, and is now surrounded 
by Alien and independent Human societies on all it's borders.  While many of 
these governments maintain nominially friendly relations with the Imperium, 
you know they all have to be watching very carefully for any signs that the 
Imperium intends to resume it's growth by absorbing them one by one.  And if 
they are watching for it, no doubt they have discussed the possibility among 
themselves, perhaps even made plans should it appear that the Imperium intends 
to resume it's growth.

Therefore, for the Imperium to initiate hostilities, or even engage in 
provoking a response from the Zhodani consulate could cause (ahem) extremely 
negative reactions from it's other neighbors.  (I draw your attention to the, 
albeit limited, Vargr participation in the FFW.   Not that some Vargr 
particularly need any excuse to jump into a fight ...)

Additionally, Admirals who have been assigned to the Spinward Marches have had 
an ... unfortunate ... history of returning to Capital with said forces in 
tow.  This could very well explain the canonical absence of the 11.5 Junidy TC 
squadrons.  They exist, somewhere, as Imperial units (needs of the Imperium, 
and all that).  And were replaced with those Kinunir class cruisers (and their 
support squadrons, of course) that where so confidently proclaimed to be all 
the force needed to pacify the Marches.

So if you combine the external pressure on the Imperium to walk a non-violent 
(or at least, non-aggressive) path, combined with the political decisions to 
hamstring any ambitions an admiral in the Spins might have, you could very 
well end up with the balance of forces that where present for the FFW.

douglas



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 15:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Fri Aug 16 14:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
In-Reply-To: <20020816211748.C678E279CB@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020816211748.C678E279CB@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <p04330102b9832073d682@[143.232.119.186]>

While this is reasonably, there seems to be little or no coordination 
amongst the Imperiums neighbors (except maybe for the outworld 
confederation).  If the Solomani, Aslan, and Vargr were all to attack 
once....


At 1:12 PM -0700 8/16/02, Douglas R Glatz wrote:
>If I might add a thought or two ...
>
>There is a political element that might well be considered here.  First, the
>Imperium has steadily expanded for the past millenium, and is now surrounded
>by Alien and independent Human societies on all it's borders.  While many of
>these governments maintain nominially friendly relations with the Imperium,
>you know they all have to be watching very carefully for any signs that the
>Imperium intends to resume it's growth by absorbing them one by one.  And if
>they are watching for it, no doubt they have discussed the possibility among
>themselves, perhaps even made plans should it appear that the Imperium intends
>to resume it's growth.
>
>Therefore, for the Imperium to initiate hostilities, or even engage in
>provoking a response from the Zhodani consulate could cause (ahem) extremely
>negative reactions from it's other neighbors.  (I draw your attention to the,
>albeit limited, Vargr participation in the FFW.   Not that some Vargr
>particularly need any excuse to jump into a fight ...)
>
>Additionally, Admirals who have been assigned to the Spinward Marches have had
>an ... unfortunate ... history of returning to Capital with said forces in
>tow.  This could very well explain the canonical absence of the 11.5 Junidy TC
>squadrons.  They exist, somewhere, as Imperial units (needs of the Imperium,
>and all that).  And were replaced with those Kinunir class cruisers (and their
>support squadrons, of course) that where so confidently proclaimed to be all
>the force needed to pacify the Marches.
>
>So if you combine the external pressure on the Imperium to walk a non-violent
>(or at least, non-aggressive) path, combined with the political decisions to
>hamstring any ambitions an admiral in the Spins might have, you could very
>well end up with the balance of forces that where present for the FFW.
>
>douglas
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 15:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug 16 14:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <e.239639a3.2a8ea44e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020816141908.009efec0@mindspring.com>

At 02:54 PM 8/16/02 -0400, you wrote:
>  >>No, I wouldn't lose my job and be stripped of all my titles.  I'd resign,
>and
>  >>I'd say why.  Loudly.
>  >
>  >Does the term "Exile World" mean anything to you?  The Imperium does not
>  >have a gurantee of freedom of speech.
>
>Do you really think this threatens someone who is supposed to be brave enough
>to face factor S meson guns?

OK, you face losing everything you've spent your life working on.  We are 
taking about a thirty year career here.  And probably a nice title, a 
pension, and life time on the lecture circut, making money telling Tales to 
Curl Your Toes.

Trade that for a TL2 world where you will spend the rest of your life 
trying to doge the local fauna?  All for a quixoic attempt to start a war 
that nobody wants?  This assumes that they let you live.  People die in 
space.  Seems to me that some Archduke died at Capital when his gig blew up.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 15:52:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug 16 14:52:47 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <156.1290e8ab.2a8ea5ad@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020816142301.009ed3a0@mindspring.com>

At 02:59 PM 8/16/02 -0400, you wrote:

>  >To what end?  What is your strategic goal?  Remember their center of power
>  >is much closer than yours.
>
>Near as I can figure, your position here is "Don't provoke the Zhodani" --
>when they are the ones launching wars.  I just don't buy it.

Again:  What is your goal in this war?


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 15:53:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug 16 14:53:38 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <24.2a0d2d48.2a8eaf3c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020816142359.009ed130@mindspring.com>

At 03:40 PM 8/16/02 -0400, you wrote:
>  >> The Imperium is happy with being off-balance and afraid of the
>  >> Zhodani?  I wouldn't be.  And I don't think the Zhodani are either.
>  >> They've been launching wars of aggression and capturing territory
>  >> for 500 years -- why would they stop?
>  >
>  >Because the Zhodani don't actually want more territory. They just want
>  >the Imperium a comfortable distance away.
>
>The record doesn't support that.  Neither do the maps.

Which maps are you looking at?  The last major exchange of territory came 
at the end of the Second Frontier War..  in 620.  To put that in 
perspective, that is as distance from the current Imperial setting in the 
early 1100s as we are from the 17th century.  In between the 2nd and 3rd 
wars there is a break of  359 years.  Between the 3rd and 4th, 96 
years.  Between the 4th and 5th,  23 years.  The five wars together stretch 
out over a period of 521 years - almost half of the Imperium's life!

This is hardly the pattern of constant attack you mention.

The Zhodani expelled Imperial settlements from their territory.  Since then 
the wars have been small and limited in scope.  Looking at the maps in 
"Spinward Marches Campaign", one sees that there hasn't been a serious 
attack on the Imperium from 620 until the 5th War broke out in 
1107.  Little bits and pieces have been made neutral, but no massive 
landgrabs.  The Zhodani want a buffer.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 15:54:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug 16 14:54:27 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Victory in the Frontier Wars
In-Reply-To: <3D5D5234.9020206@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <aa.1024aea9.2a8df11b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020816143805.009fe250@mindspring.com>

At 12:27 PM 8/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
>During the *conquest* they had legions present, and if a rebllion or 
>outside threat got serious enough, they'd send troops, but in the main, 
>defense of the borders were left to the local governors.

Which is one of the things I had in mind when I wrote the Unified Armies of 
the Imperium bit.  The Navy and Marines are the Legion, while the Army is 
the local force defending hearth and home.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 15:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Aug 16 14:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
In-Reply-To: <p04330102b9832073d682@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029535009.444.ajackson@ping>

David P. Summers writes:
> While this is reasonably, there seems to be little or no coordination 
> amongst the Imperiums neighbors (except maybe for the outworld 
> confederation).  If the Solomani, Aslan, and Vargr were all to attack 
> once....

It would be a temporary mess on all the borders.  Since the portions of the
Imperium don't generally support one another during wars anyway, there's no
reason to assume the result would be any more serious than any other wars.

This is, also, the reason it really doesn't matter that the Imperium outweighs
the Zhodani.  The wars have never been Imperium vs Zhodani, they've been Deneb
vs some fraction of the Zhodani.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 16:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas R Glatz)
Date: Fri Aug 16 15:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:35:56 PDT."
 <p04330102b9832073d682@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <200208162213.g7GMDYE13854@catenary.cesa.opbu.xerox.com>

While there is nothing specific about agreements between the neighbors (and 
considering how little is actually released about the high level politics, I 
wouldn't expect to find anything), there is some canonical evidence that shows 
that there is a military standoff on at least three of the Imperium's borders.

Referring to the MT/TNE timeline, when the rebellion kicks off, the Solomani, 
the Vargr and the Aslan all cross Imperial borders and take territory.  While 
there is no coordination in these actions, it is obvious that there *was* the 
military forces, and contingency plans, in place to take these actions in 
reaction to a change in the status quo.

Indeed, there may have been a fourth ... Isn't that a Hiver in the background 
of some of the Dulinor holopics?  ;)

douglas



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 17:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Fri Aug 16 16:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <F52sKj9cMXF1UVkCUVP00005065@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFIELLDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

To bring this On Topic I saved these messages to give to my players as alien
contact guides.  You guys are the same species as us, speak the same
language and belong to the same (general) society and yet the following
messages make no sense to me whatsoever.  I guess it's a sporting event of
some kind but which and what is completely unknown to me.

I'm sure that a serious sports enthusiast could post a message equally
mystifying about a British sport, imagine the problem trying to communicate
(possibly in a foreign language, poorly understood) with a sophont of
completely different species and environment.  Nightmarish is an under
statement.

> -----Original Message-----
On Behalf Of Larsen E. Whipsnade
> Sent: 10 August 2002 18:59
>
> From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>
>      Way OT, but as a hardcore Giants fan, I just gotta brag.
>
>      Last night, Barry Bonds hit his 600th career home run.  Next target:
> 661.
>
>
> Mr. Berry,
>
>      With the "Say Hey Kid" as your godfather, you BETTER hit 600 plus!
>      Now that the Olde Town Team is well into their patented
> summer swoon,
> following Mr. Bonds has given me great pleasure of late.  He hit
> one a few
> weeks ago that went so far there should have been a stewardess on it!
>      Oops, gotta go, Hillenbrand just hit a double and the Flops
> have jumped
> out ahead of the amazin' Twins (downsize THIS Selig!).  With Pedro on the
> mound, one run might be all the Flops need.  Since the All-Star break, it
> seems Martinez can throw a porkchop past a wolf.
>

 Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott (who is _only_ 612 messages out of date now)
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the
shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser
gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to
die." Replicant Roy Batty (Rutger Haur) Blade Runner


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 17:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Fri Aug 16 16:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value
 targets)
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1029535009.444.ajackson@ping>
References: <p04330102b9832073d682@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020816191826.024f0bc0@mail.buffnet.net>

Five hundred years of war?  That could only happen if the spinward marchers 
were settled for the 500 plus years.  You would think that a world or ten 
could be brought up to current tech levels in 500 years.  Sheesh!


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 17:10:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Fri Aug 16 16:10:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day
In-Reply-To: <20020816173457.29667.qmail@web20905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFIEMHDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

LOL, now that would be telling - but seriously at least she lets of steam by
blowing stuff up on the PC - and I get peace and quiet to make dinner :)

Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the
shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser
gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to
die." Replicant Roy Batty (Rutger Haur) Blade Runner

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Paul Walker
> Sent: 16 August 2002 18:35
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: RE: [TML] Traveller Mental Picture of the Day
>
>
> --- Peter Scarrott
> <peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> > KEYBOARD KILL, damn and blast it, sheesh I'm really
> > in trouble now.  Gotta
> > clean this before, the MUCH better half gets back
> > and wants to play.
>
> You are in more trouble that that if your SO comes
> home and wants to play and uses a keyboard to do it!
> Or is there a different use for a keyboard that I'm
> missing?
>
> ;)
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
> http://www.hotjobs.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 17:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas R Glatz)
Date: Fri Aug 16 16:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Victory in the Frontier Wars
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:39:16 PDT."
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020816143805.009fe250@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020816232249.361C927A05@mail.travellercentral.com>

Doug - you must have written that when I was not paying attention to the list. 
 Was it a post, or published?  Where can I find a copy?

douglas

> Which is one of the things I had in mind when I wrote the Unified Armies of 
> the Imperium bit.  The Navy and Marines are the Legion, while the Army is 
> the local force defending hearth and home.
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
> 
> "Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
> sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 17:23:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas R Glatz)
Date: Fri Aug 16 16:23:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:56:49 PDT."
 <ML-2.3.1029535009.444.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020816232249.B284027A08@mail.travellercentral.com>

> David P. Summers writes:
> > While this is reasonably, there seems to be little or no coordination 
> > amongst the Imperiums neighbors (except maybe for the outworld 
> > confederation).  If the Solomani, Aslan, and Vargr were all to attack 
> > once....
> 
> It would be a temporary mess on all the borders.  Since the portions of the
> Imperium don't generally support one another during wars anyway, there's no
> reason to assume the result would be any more serious than any other wars.
> 

I was under the impression that the Imperium *does* shift forces in response 
to attacks - and that it specifically *didn't* happen in the FFW because it 
was over before the news had reached Capital and the reaction flowed back.

Indeed, I was under the impression that is how at least one of the Emperor's 
of the Flag had amassed enough of a fleet to overcome the Capital fleet.

douglas




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 17:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Aug 16 16:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
In-Reply-To: <20020816232249.B284027A08@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029540496.4803.ajackson@ping>

Douglas R Glatz writes:

> I was under the impression that the Imperium *does* shift forces in
> response  to attacks - and that it specifically *didn't* happen in the FFW
> because it  was over before the news had reached Capital and the reaction
> flowed back. 

Maybe, but there's not much canon evidence of it happening.
> 
> Indeed, I was under the impression that is how at least one of the
> Emperor's  of the Flag had amassed enough of a fleet to overcome the
> Capital fleet. 

Well, in the case of Arbellata she stole fleets as she passed through, but that
doesn't mean it was SOP.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 17:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Aug 16 16:34:02 2002
Subject: While we're talking about games was [TML] Vilani Chess
In-Reply-To: <98.2a82c54f.2a8daeca@aol.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEHIINAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

here is a game I came up with as a traditional Vilani board game

"the trouble with the Terran wars was we were playing Thashirudri and
they were playing Chinese checkers"
Governor Tiklomistire

Thashirudri

The board (all adjacent points are connected)

               *   Y  G  R
              * *
             * * *                  White Home
        * * * * * * * *         __________
         * *       * *
        * * *     * * *             Field
         * *       * *           ___________
        * * * * * * * *               Black Home
             * * *
              * *
      R G Y    *
the home is the 8 points at each end of the field and the six points that
lie behind them
the field is everything lying between them.

The Pieces

One side has a black bases and the other has white disk shaped bases

3  Citizen     Bare Base
3  Workers     Green Sphere
3  Merchants   Gold or yellow Sphere
2  Corporation Red Cube

2 Jump rings   ring

Set up
(looks long there are only a few pieces placed each time)

W place Two citizens on home side
B Place Two citizens on home side
B Break one connection in W Home (between two adjacent points)
W break one connection in B home
W Set up Workers in home side
B Set up Workers in home side
B  break two connections on field
W Break two connections on field
W Set up Merchants on home Side
B Set up Merchant on home side
B break one connection in own home
W break one connection in own home
W Set up Corporation in home side
B Set up corporation on home side
B  Declare Citizen by placing remaining citizen piece on a color square on
your side
    the two pieces on board become that color piece for the game
W Same

Objective
Get three pieces on other players home AND have five piece untaken
or
reduce your opponent to three pieces

Moves

Workers  as long as desired along a horizontal line or one point along a
diagonal line; movement stops at
a broken line or a piece that can block or if they enter to point occupied
by a piece they can take.

Merchant as long as desired along a diagonal line or one point along a
horizontal line;  movement stops at
a broken line or a piece that can block or if they enter to point occupied
by a piece they can take.

Corporation can move one or two points along a horizontal or diagonal line
unless stopped by a broken line
or if they enter to point occupied by a piece they can take.

Only one piece can occupy a point at a time
Capture and Blocking

Workers take merchants by entering the point the merchant occupies

merchants take workers

Corporations take everyone

workers block workers entering the square they occupy

merchants block merchants entering the square they occupy

corporations block workers and merchants entering the square they occupy

a piece that runs into a piece that blocks it is backed up one point along
the track it cam along

a piece that blocks is frozen for one turn, it can not move which is
signified by a jump ring, a piece that is frozen
blocks any piece from moving through the space it occupies they reflected
back like a blocked piece.  A piece that is frozen counts as alive for
victory.






From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 17:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug 16 16:39:02 2002
Subject: While we're talking about games was [TML] Vilani Chess
Message-ID: <200208162338.MXV00612@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

John-Martin says
<snip a game>

Well, I think we want a man's game...

Does anyone have the rules for Fizzbin?
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 17:39:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug 16 16:39:46 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <20020816233848.47253.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Peter Scarrott" <peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

>To bring this On Topic I saved these messages to give to my players 
>as alien contact guides.  You guys are the same species as us, speak
>the same language and belong to the same (general) society and yet
>the following messages make no sense to me whatsoever.  

they don't make no sense t'me neither and I live on the same
continent as one, same region as the other

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
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HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 17:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Aug 16 16:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
In-Reply-To: <20020816232249.B284027A08@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHEEHJINAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Every time I see this title I get the image of "Victory at Space"  
with original score by John Williams

jml

"Meanwhile the beleaguered defenders of Mora were buoyed by ...."

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 17:48:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug 16 16:48:45 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <20020816012403.39344.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020816012403.39344.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020817094748.A29834@freeman.little-possums.net>

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> This appears to be very bad GMing.

That was my opinion, too.


>  Before the referee can put time pressure on the players, he or she
> has to set up the context enough for them to act.

That might be the main problem then.  However, it doesn't help much.
How does the GM convey sufficient information in a few seconds?  If
they take the time to convey sufficient information beforehand, how do
they avoid me anticipating the "tense" decision point (in real-time,
that is) and beating them to the punch?


> Well it could be either or a little of both.  How does your play
> compare with other players in the same situation in the same game?

I'm usually less willing to argue strenuously for my assumptions.


> Your point is well taken, but it sounds like you've backed off of
> your position that you don't make decisions quickly. If you play
> volleyball well, as you indicated, you make decisions very quickly.

Completely different circumstances.  It would be more accurate to say
that I am very slow in making decisions where I feel I should be able
to obtain more information.  Combine that with the fact that I
*always* feel information-starved in roleplaying sessions (not just in
action sequences), and it's not a pretty picture when you put time
limits on top.  Combine it with character death as a result of any
misstep and it gets downright ugly.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 18:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Aug 16 17:09:02 2002
Subject: While we're talking about games was [TML] Vilani Chess
In-Reply-To: <200208162338.MXV00612@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHGEHLINAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

John Kwon wrote:

John-Martin says
<snip a game>

Well, I think we want a man's game...

Does anyone have the rules for Fizzbin?
________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Sorry you don't like it,  I was trying to come up with something 
that wasn't a variant chess and thought people might be interested 
in seeing it.

jml
fizzbin rules

http://interoz.com/madhatters/legionwest/fizzbin.htm

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 18:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Scott Ayres)
Date: Fri Aug 16 17:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] FFW Question
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHGEHLINAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <20020817001815.17587.qmail@web20804.mail.yahoo.com>

In "The Spinward Marches Campaign" timeline there's an
entry that says: "Imperium begins evacuation of
Regina...".

What does this mean?  Who's leaving?  And with what?

Did the Zho's ever actually attack Regina (in canon)?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 18:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Fri Aug 16 17:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  sword vs shotgun
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815220707.02a10e68@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <000001c24584$6bb5c770$6501a8c0@Darla>

> 
> As a wise programmer once told me when I was sweating over some
assembly
> code that was supposed make a NIC work,
> "Don't think of it as a career. Think of it as a paycheck."
> 

Realizing that you have a job vice a career is *very* liberating, and
gives you a degree of autonomy in dealing with line management...:)

Tom Barnes


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 18:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Fri Aug 16 17:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <20020816171803.3291.22720.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentra
 l.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020816172409.00b30648@mailhost.efn.org>

>Because the Zhodani don't actually want more territory. They just want
>the Imperium a comfortable distance away. The extra territory they
>picked up (and most of it was made independent rather than incorporated
>into the Consulate) was a means, not an end.

Which is another thing that dates Traveller to the Cold War, as this was 
also one of Russia's reasons for establishing the Warsaw Pact:  to serve as 
a buffer between them and the next (inevitable?) conquering European 
dictator in the mold of Napoleon and Hitler.  Given those precedents, I 
can't say as I really blame them.  If Mexico or Canada invaded us every 
couple of generations, I imagine we'd do some pre-emptive annexing too.

(Of course, it's not like Russia really needs outside help to kill millions 
of its own citizens...)


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 18:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Aug 16 17:54:02 2002
Subject: While we're talking about games was [TML] Vilani Chess
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHGEHLINAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <20020817005330.89945.qmail@web20901.mail.yahoo.com>

--- John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net> wrote:
> 
> Sorry you don't like it,  I was trying to come up
> with something 
> that wasn't a variant chess and thought people might
> be interested 
> in seeing it.

I liked it.  I'm looking forward to trying it. 
Unfortunately I don't have many people to play board
games with either.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 20:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri Aug 16 19:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value  targets)
References: <20020816232302.6238.63480.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D5DAFFD.DB2B67D8@ameritech.net>

> From: Flykiller@aol.com
> Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 15:32:06 EDT

> Most Zhodani are not psi. 

True.

> And most psi's will not be willing to play any sort of guerrilla role 

This however does not necesarily follow. I should think that the well
adjusted intendant would be very likely to remain behind to continue to
help the proles. If not out of altruism or patriotism then out of
compulsion. The Tvarchedl aren't just for the peons you know.

> -- the psi's left behind will not number in the hundreds of thousands,
> let alone millions, especially when there might be quite a few proles > who are willing to point out psi-capable Zhodani in their midst. 

Considering Zhodani methods there is absolutely no reason to suspect any
tendency amongst the proles to turn quisling. No prole will harbor
anti-psionic feelings for long in the Consulate even if they somehow
managed to develop any anti-psionic feelings in the first place.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 20:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Aug 16 19:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816222025.01657f40@192.168.0.1>

At 11:13 AM 8/16/2002 +0200, Jens Rydholm wrote:
>On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:38:20 +1000
>david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
> > Actually, my thought for the Family was the old Cadillac font. Y'know,
> > the running-writing that all links along the bottom of the page as
> > though there was a ruler there, constraining the writer. It was on
> > those pink Cadillacs. I've been trying - fairly unsuccessfully - to
> > find a good example, but try this:
> >         http://www.car-nection.com/yann/Dbas_ima/56elscrp.JPG
>
>Ditzie: "Where's the caddy?"
>
>HE: "The what?"
>
>Ditzie: "The car we used to have, the Spof-mobile?"
>
>HE: "I traded it."
>
>Ditzie: "You traded the Spof-mobile for THIS?"
>
>HE: "No. For PMPG ammunition."

The thought of Ditzie being released from jail brings to mind a smoking 
pile of rubble that used to be a jail with her walking away...
Whoops Movie segway...Blues Brothers to Dusk to Dawn, the two brothers 
walking away from the store talking as it blows up behind them.


----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/   "He couldn't seem to stop with
the double entendres. They rose to his lips like drool from the
id." -- Deep Eddy, Bruce Sterling
----------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 20:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Aug 16 19:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816222025.01657f40@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHCEIBINAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

>Ditzie: "Where's the caddy?"
>
>HE: "The what?"
>
>Ditzie: "The car we used to have, the Spof-mobile?"
>
>HE: "I traded it."
>
>Ditzie: "You traded the Spof-mobile for THIS?"
>
>HE: "No. For PMPG ammunition."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

He:  Quick Ditzie, to the Spof-cave.  When we are
needed, the Commissioner will contact us using the 
Spof-signal.

jml
tune in next week when we hear Ditzie say:
Now kids don't try this at home without lots of 
of insurance ... real tolerant neighbors help too

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 20:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Aug 16 19:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Land Grab Webring...
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816224908.025bbec0@mail.charter.net>

Ok....I've set it up...details to follow...

Any suggestions for ring graphics besides the TML Landgrab graphic?


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 20:51:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Aug 16 19:51:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <ML-2.3.1029515927.4165.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3D5DB9A8.C279CE28@mindspring.com>

Anthony Jackson wrote:
> 

> 
> In the real world, there's nothing equivalent to a traveller low-tech world;
> no-one (other than hobbyists) builds TL 4 ships, for example.  What you have
> are poor countries and rich countries.

And in the poor countries they build TL ~1 to 3 boats. And farm using TL
~1 to 3 methods. I've seen the boats built and used in several
countries, of course those with money import. The farming, check out a
show on the Discovery channel called "Stick fighting and Plate lips". A
documentary on an african tribe, Sudanese IIRC, really quite
enlightening for the average TL ~7 or 8 American who never left the
states. My wife was amazed at the diet of blood in particular. The stick
fighting was also very cool. The plate lips IMO were ghastly. 
YMMV ;)


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Bigot: One who is obstinately and zealously attached to an opinion
that you do not entertain.
                  -Ambrose Bierce

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 21:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Aug 16 20:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Landgrab Webring URL
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816225841.00cee348@mail.charter.net>

http://www.urbin.net/EWW/RPG/TRAV/LGWR/

Share and enjoy....

----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Government does not cause affluence. Citizens of totalitarian
countries have plenty of government and nothing of anything
else." -- P. J. O'Rourke, EAT THE RICH
----------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 21:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 16 20:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
Message-ID: <106.16bb8523.2a8f1882@aol.com>

 >The Spinward MArches in the 1100s is actually fairly similar to the 
 >border between the Roman and Parthian empires in the mid-late peroid of 
 >the Roman Empire - satellite states, the odd border war, but nothing 
 >major because neither side is particularly expansionistic and there's 
 >no profit in having a large, expensive and destructive war. In the 
 >OTU's case I'm sure we can all imagine just how long the various Vargr 
 >states allied to each side would stay 'allied' to anyone, and just how 
 >bad the priacy, raiding and looting of both Zhodani and Imperial worlds 
 >in reach of Vargr shipping would get. Now who wants that to happen over 
 >a lousy little backwater subsector or two?

I completely agree.  The problem is that the Zhodani don't.  They have been 
expansionist for 500 years.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 21:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 16 20:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: OTU is out of wack.
Message-ID: <15d.12a5e9bb.2a8f1a1c@aol.com>

>Nice to see this comment from a published author.  

It expresses a sentiment held by Marc Miller, Frank Chadwick, and myself. 

LKW




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 21:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug 16 20:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] FFW Question
In-Reply-To: <20020817001815.17587.qmail@web20804.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHGEHLINAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020816200812.009ffec0@mindspring.com>

At 05:18 PM 8/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
>In "The Spinward Marches Campaign" timeline there's an
>entry that says: "Imperium begins evacuation of
>Regina...".
>
>What does this mean?  Who's leaving?  And with what?

I'd say vital personnel and records.  Ducal household, and as many VIPs as 
they can shove into the transports.

>Did the Zho's ever actually attack Regina (in canon)?

Depends on your canon.  CT canon is unclear.  In Ground Forces it is stated 
clearly that there is a landing.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.
gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Author of GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces
Geek Code: tc tm tn- t4-- tg++$ ru ge+ 3i+@ c+
            jt- au pi he+ as+ so-                           



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 21:19:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug 16 20:19:55 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <20020816233848.47253.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020816201133.009e25d0@mindspring.com>

At 04:38 PM 8/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >From: "Peter Scarrott" <peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
>
> >To bring this On Topic I saved these messages to give to my players
> >as alien contact guides.  You guys are the same species as us, speak
> >the same language and belong to the same (general) society and yet
> >the following messages make no sense to me whatsoever.
>
>they don't make no sense t'me neither and I live on the same
>continent as one, same region as the other

You're kidding me.  You managed to miss the 600 hysteria!?


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 21:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug 16 20:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Victory in the Frontier Wars
In-Reply-To: <20020816232249.361C927A05@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <Your message of "Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:39:16 PDT." <5.1.0.14.2.20020816143805.009fe250@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020816201234.009e1220@mindspring.com>

At 03:23 PM 8/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Doug - you must have written that when I was not paying attention to the 
>list.
>  Was it a post, or published?  Where can I find a copy?

It is in GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces.  Found in better gaming shops 
everywhere.

Essentially, each subsector has its own army.  Funded by the Imperium, and 
using Imperial standard ranks and organization, but under local control 
most of the time.  This allows more flexibility in defense.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 21:31:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug 16 20:31:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value
 targets)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020816191826.024f0bc0@mail.buffnet.net>
References: <ML-2.3.1029535009.444.ajackson@ping>
 <p04330102b9832073d682@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020816202113.009e6c30@mindspring.com>

At 07:19 PM 8/16/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Five hundred years of war?  That could only happen if the spinward 
>marchers were settled for the 500 plus years.  You would think that a 
>world or ten could be brought up to current tech levels in 500 years.  Sheesh!

Heavy settlement started c. 200.  That's 900 years of constant settlement.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 21:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 16 20:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <f8.201149a1.2a8f1e61@aol.com>

 >> Near as I can figure, your position here is "Don't provoke the Zhodani" 
-- 
 >> when they are the ones launching wars.  I just don't buy it.
 >
 >Well, within the FFW game the reason for not provoking the Zhodani by 
attacking
 >behind the lines is because you hit this impenetrable border called 'the 
edge
 >of the map'

Now that, I buy.

It's easy to forget that Traveller is an RPG about traders and mercs, not 
trade and 
war.

 >The main reason the Imperium doesn't launch
 >similar raids into nearby Consulate worlds is that historically they've 
never
 >really had the forces available to do so.

Well I'd like to know why.  I sat down and built the best ships I could from 
an AE world, and then the best I could from an AF world.  It takes 3 AE 
world's fleets to seriously challenge and AF world's fleet in a stand-up 
battle, and even then the AF world still wins.  The Imperium may have other 
obligations elsewhere, but I would think the Zhodani do to, and when I look 
at the number of AF worlds in the Imperium I have to wonder just what is 
going on that the Zhodani are able to concentrate such forces in Cronor while 
the Imperium in effect sits on its hands.  If a fleet were constructed from 
just six AF worlds (a small portion of what the Imperium has available to it 
even just in Vland, an inboard sector with no borders needing defense) and 
that fleet was parked in orbit above Cronor then the Zhodani would have to 
muster the resources of at least two entire sectors, and probably three, just 
to challenge it.  And that's not even counting what the Spinward Marches 
themselves could contribute.

But, again, it's just an RPG.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 21:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug 16 20:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <20020816233848.47253.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020816233848.47253.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <m33ctegndc.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@yahoo.com> writes:
> 
> they don't make no sense t'me neither and I live on the same
> continent as one, same region as the other

I understood it, but I don't understand it, if you follow me.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
There's only so many cookies one can pull out of a floppy drive before
losing faith in mankind.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 22:07:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Asbury)
Date: Fri Aug 16 21:07:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Crazy is as crazy does
References: <20020816190008.2611.6921.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001401c245a3$f5a03be0$7a70893e@oemcomputer>

>=20
> Agreed. Snipers must have a much higher level of initiative, independence,
and confidence than the average infantryman. Not everyone, especially at
>> younger ages, lower rank, and comparitively little time in uniform, as
many
>> snipers are, is comfortable with having the burden of such life and death
>> decision-making fall on them. A single shot can decide the outcome of a
>> battle.
>
>Contrary to popular belief, the calculated killing of someone at long range
>does not require the special mindset once believed.  In fact, studies seem
>to indicate that the more remote the target, the easier (psychologically)
to
>kill. What generally has the most 'psychological' cost is up close killing,
>pr as Grossman puts it, killing at a sexual distance.  Killing someone at
>touching distance with a knife, for example, probably requires a much more
>'ruthless' mindset than shooting someone at 1000 meters.

Sounds like the Hivers, long distance kills, but nothing close (get our dumb
Lizard friends to do that.....they enjoy it)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 22:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 16 21:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
Message-ID: <19d.71c6b86.2a8f276b@aol.com>

 >There is a political element that might well be considered here.  First, 
the 
 >Imperium has steadily expanded for the past millenium,

Were there any who didn't?  I suppose the Vargr and the Aslans consider 
themselves to be content with _their_ borders -- not to mention the Zhodani 
themselves, who have been absorbing Imperial worlds for 500 years now.

 >So if you combine the external pressure on the Imperium to walk a 
non-violent 
 >(or at least, non-aggressive) path,

"The enemy is always peaceloving.  He would prefer to take our territory 
unopposed."  Clauswitz.  But I would oppose them.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 22:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Aug 16 21:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <m33ctegndc.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020817041418.74310.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@yahoo.com> writes:
> > 
> > they don't make no sense t'me neither and I live
> on the same
> > continent as one, same region as the other
> 
> I understood it, but I don't understand it, if you
> follow me.

Oh come on guys.  The man has done something that only
three other men have done in the history of the game. 
I mean, there have only been 3 other guys in the past
100+ years that have done what this man has done.  And
he's not finished.  He is doing it with less "help"
and quicker than any of the others (at least the last
100).  Surely that doesn't escape notice and at least
a little awe and respect.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 22:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 16 21:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <53.1b1ff013.2a8f29b1@aol.com>

 >>  >>No, I wouldn't lose my job and be stripped of all my titles.  I'd 
resign,
 >>and
 >>  >>I'd say why.  Loudly.
 >>  >
 >>  >Does the term "Exile World" mean anything to you?  The Imperium does not
 >>  >have a gurantee of freedom of speech.
 >>
 >>Do you really think this threatens someone who is supposed to be brave 
enough
 >>to face factor S meson guns?
 >
 >OK, you face losing everything you've spent your life working on.  We are 
 >taking about a thirty year career here.  And probably a nice title, a 
 >pension, and life time on the lecture circut, making money telling Tales to 
 >Curl Your Toes.

Money?

If I'm a major admiral, then what I've spent my life working on is the 
defense of the realm, at the risk of being irradiated or vaccumed or lasered 
or nuked.  If the defense of the realm required me to stand up and speak out 
and lose money, that would be a piece of cake.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 22:25:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 16 21:25:04 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <16b.124568c1.2a8f29fe@aol.com>

 >All for a quixoic attempt to start a war 
 >that nobody wants?

As everyone will recall, it is the Zhodani that are already starting wars 
that nobody wants.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 22:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug 16 21:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lasers and sound
Message-ID: <200208170434.MYF00163@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Boeing has a little pdf file showing something called the 
Advanced Tactical Laser.  Apparently, it mounts on the 
Osprey, and is modular - it could be fitted to other aircraft 
or rotorcraft.  It is the same laser unit as the Airborne 
Laser intended for missile intercept, except that instead of 
the whole bank of power generators, it uses only one modular 
power generator.

This limits its power to 300 kilowatts continuous beam 
output, with a range between 12 and 20km as long as the craft 
operates below cloud level.

They seem to imply that the weapon is completely silent in 
operation and effect, and the ideal weapon for close air 
support.  The package was apparently demonstrated to SOCOM in 
1999.

But no sound -- 
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 22:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Fri Aug 16 21:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] 2d6 bell curve
Message-ID: <005301c245a8$b212e440$ca413b41@customer>

Some help please.  Does anyone have or know where I can find a bell curve
for 2 six sided dice.  Mind you I'm not that mathematically incline so it
would have to something simple.

Thanks in advance.
John Scarlett
----------------------------
A child educated only at school is an uneducated child.- George Santayana



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 23:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Fri Aug 16 22:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] 2d6 bell curve
References: <005301c245a8$b212e440$ca413b41@customer>
Message-ID: <3D5DDA45.4340BA82@pobox.com>

John,
There are 36 possible rolls with 2d6.  The chances to roll a specific number
are as follows:
Roll    Chances
2        1 in 36
3        2 in 36
4        3 in 36
5        4 in 36
6        5 in 36
7        6 in 36
8        5 in 36
9        4 in 36
10       3 in 36
11       2 in 36
12       1 in 36

To see what the chance of rolling less (or more) than a certain number, add
up the chances to roll all the numbers below (or above) that number.
e.g. to roll a 5 or less, you would have 10 chances in 36, that is the sum of
4 chances for a 5, plus 3 chances for a 4, plus 2 chances for a 3, plus one
chance for a 2.  Percentage-wise this is 10/36=.277777, or a 27.77% chance of
rolling 5 or less.

Simple enough?

WKH

John Scarlett wrote:

> Some help please.  Does anyone have or know where I can find a bell curve
> for 2 six sided dice.  Mind you I'm not that mathematically incline so it
> would have to something simple.
>
> Thanks in advance.
> John Scarlett
> ----------------------------
> A child educated only at school is an uneducated child.- George Santayana
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 23:07:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Fri Aug 16 22:07:55 2002
Subject: [TML] 2d6 bell curve
In-Reply-To: <005301c245a8$b212e440$ca413b41@customer>
References: <005301c245a8$b212e440$ca413b41@customer>
Message-ID: <20020817070618.096f660c.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Sat, 17 Aug 2002 00:43:46 -0400
John Scarlett <jlscarlett@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Some help please.  Does anyone have or know where I can find a bell
> curve for 2 six sided dice.  Mind you I'm not that mathematically
> incline so it would have to something simple.

How about right here, right now?  :-)

(use a fixed-width font)

2D6
Result  Probability
2       1/36
3       2/36
4       3/36
5       4/36
6       5/36
7       6/36
8       5/36
9       4/36
10      3/36
11      2/36
12      1/36

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 23:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Fri Aug 16 22:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] 2d6 bell curve
In-Reply-To: <005301c245a8$b212e440$ca413b41@customer>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHIEIHINAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>



Some help please.  Does anyone have or know where I can find a bell curve
for 2 six sided dice.  Mind you I'm not that mathematically incline so it
would have to something simple.

Thanks in advance.
John Scarlett
----------------------------
A child educated only at school is an uneducated child.- George Santayana


_
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Actually I think what you want is the frequency distribution curve 
with a class size of one.  Bell curves typically are the result of 
large populations and smoother data.

2D6 = 36 possible combinations that produce values ranging from 2 to 12
resulting from two --theoretically --independant values.

As you say you aren't mathematically inclined, here are graphical ways to 
determine the distribution.

    1   2   3   4   5   6
1   2   3   4   5   6   7
2   3   4   5   6   7   8
3   4   5   6   7   8   9
4   5   6   7   8   9   10
5   6   7   8   9   10  11
6   7   8   9   10  11  12




2   1-1					1
3   1-2, 2-1				2
4   1-3, 2-2, 3-1				3
5   1-4, 2-3, 3-2, 4-1			4
6   1-5, 2-4, 3-3, 4-2, 5-1         5
7   1-6, 2-5, 3-4, 4-3, 5-2, 6-1    6
8   2-6, 3-5, 4-4, 5-3, 6-2		5
9   3-6, 4-5, 5-4, 6-3			4 
10  4-6, 5-5, 6-4				3
11  5-6. 6-5				2
12  6-6					1

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 23:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 16 22:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] 2d6 bell curve
In-Reply-To: <005301c245a8$b212e440$ca413b41@customer>
References: <005301c245a8$b212e440$ca413b41@customer>
Message-ID: <4592.64.8.3.28.1029561092.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

> Some help please.  Does anyone have or know where I can find a bell
> curve for 2 six sided dice.  Mind you I'm not that mathematically
> incline so it would have to something simple.
>
> Thanks in advance.
> John Scarlett

Hello John,

Die    Number    Percent
Roll   of rolls  of success
----------------------------

 2      1          02.7%
 3      2          08.3%
 4      3          16.7%
 5      4          27.8%
 6      5          41.7%
 7      6          58.3%
 8      5          72.2%
 9      4          83.3%
10      3          91.7%
11      2          97.2%
12      1          100 %

Hope this was what you were looking for.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 23:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ken Murphy)
Date: Fri Aug 16 22:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style
Message-ID: <F257QRYnl2oGnIvXeP700013e69@hotmail.com>

>Message: 11
>Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:13:35 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Daniel Tackett <haegen2001@yahoo.com>
>Subject: RE: [TML] Disintegrators, Dragon style
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
> > I have sent the text of the article to Dan, but I
> > don't seem to have
> > seen the post to which Dan was replying.
> >
> > If it was you, let me know so I can send the
> > article.
> >
> > Frankie
>Ken Murphy was the person who wanted it also.
>Thanks for the article.

   Yes, Frankie,it was me :)
   Icould've sworn I sent an offlist request to your email, but maybe 
not?.Oh well, in any case, I can be reached at:
   MurfNMurf@aol.com
        or
   MurfNMurf@hotmail.com

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 16 23:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Scott Ayres)
Date: Fri Aug 16 22:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] FFW Question
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020816200812.009ffec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020817054530.80135.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> At 05:18 PM 8/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >In "The Spinward Marches Campaign" timeline there's
> > an entry that says: "Imperium begins evacuation of
> > Regina...".
> >
> >What does this mean?  Who's leaving?  And with
what?
> 
> I'd say vital personnel and records.  Ducal
> household, and as many VIPs as 
> they can shove into the transports.
> 
> >Did the Zho's ever actually attack Regina (in 
> >canon)?
> 
> Depends on your canon.  CT canon is unclear.  In  
> Ground Forces it is stated clearly that there is a 
> landing.
 
Between the old JTAS cover (assuming it's Regina) &
the GF description, that's good enough for me.  Thanks.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 00:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Fri Aug 16 23:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Zhodani Frontier War Philosophy (was Re: Victory in the Frontier Wars)
In-Reply-To: <20020816232302.6238.63480.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020816232302.6238.63480.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <14prlukovr8b9uqj0u65dbd1sajo6rno6g@4ax.com>

On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:23:02 -0700, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>Well, canon makes clear that the areas in question were not 
>"Consulate-claimed space", but intermingled colonies.  Further, in subsequent 
>wars the Zhodani have moved to capture and claim worlds that originally had 
>no Zhodani presence, and force the Imperium to release worlds that had been 
>Imperial.  This is aggression, pure and simple, and it deserves a fitting 
>answer.  As for your analogy of me being beat up, once again it's an 
>encouragement to passivity -- "which is better?  Hoping you can beat me up?" 
>-- as if there is no hope of such a result.

>But there is.  Zhodane is technologically inferior to the Imperium.  I've 
>looked over the maps at Traveller Central.  If they are canon or anything 
>near it, then the Imperials heavily outweigh the Zhodani, to put it mildly.  
>Yet the Zhodani are on a 500 year four war winning streak.  There's something 
>wrong with this picture, and I think that this appeal to passivity is part of 
>it.

Remember that along with psionics, the Zhodani will naturally be masters of
pshrinkology.  Fred Ramen, in his novella _The_Hostile_Stars_ (Available in
Raconteur's Rest at Freelance Traveller), suggests that the Zhodani _don't_
'play to win', but to keep the Imperium uncertain, and guessing.  That may
be a reasonable thought; they don't want to end up dominated or absorbed by
the Imperium, so their objective is to keep the Imperium off-balance or
uncertain enough to prevent them from getting organized for a push against
the Zhodani directly, or from extending their holdings in the area and thus
dominating them that way.
--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 00:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 16 23:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Human Nature or "WWRD" or "WWAD"
In-Reply-To: <14prlukovr8b9uqj0u65dbd1sajo6rno6g@4ax.com>
References: <20020816232302.6238.63480.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <14prlukovr8b9uqj0u65dbd1sajo6rno6g@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <1614.64.8.3.28.1029564619.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

After seeing this discussion regards to the constant Zhodani pressure
against the Spinward Marches frontier, I keep having to ask myself...


What would Russia Do?

What would America Do?

In short?  Knowing you have an enemy who fully intends to push the
borders, I'd start thinking about the next war knowing there *will* be a
war.

Furthermore?  I'm not all that certain that having a Jump 5 Warship is all
that needful.  I would almost rather see a bunch of warships that could
hold the line against an enemy aggessor.  Perhaps a few planetoid Monitor
type defenses along with a few scouting elements to constantly keep an eye
on the comings and goings on of Zhodani ships in their own territory. 
Nothing like using scout ships to shadow enemy fleet build ups.  Deep
recon missions if you will...

Comments?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 00:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Fri Aug 16 23:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Tech levelling (was Re: Victory in the Frontier Wars)
In-Reply-To: <20020816232302.6238.63480.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020816232302.6238.63480.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <i0qrluovbv5unu0u4i9un4innhe343m6pc@4ax.com>

On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:23:02 -0700, Hal <hal@buffnet.net> wrote:

>Five hundred years of war?  That could only happen if the spinward marchers 
>were settled for the 500 plus years.  You would think that a world or ten 
>could be brought up to current tech levels in 500 years.  Sheesh!

_Could_ be?  Almost certainly.  _Should_ be, or _want_ to be?  Might be
another story.  If everyone is at the same TL, what happens to the tech
export market?  In fact, what happens to the entirety of interstellar
trade?  Won't the only thing worth shipping - no matter what trade rules
you use - be limited-availability locally-unique luxuries?  Hardly enough
of a market for an Imperium built on trade...

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 00:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Victor Jason Raymond)
Date: Fri Aug 16 23:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lasers and sound
In-Reply-To: <200208170434.MYF00163@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817010845.05183020@vraymond.mail.iastate.edu>

Fascinating!  Do you have a URL for this?


At 12:34 AM 8/17/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Boeing has a little pdf file showing something called the
>Advanced Tactical Laser.  Apparently, it mounts on the
>Osprey, and is modular - it could be fitted to other aircraft
>or rotorcraft.  It is the same laser unit as the Airborne
>Laser intended for missile intercept, except that instead of
>the whole bank of power generators, it uses only one modular
>power generator.
>
>This limits its power to 300 kilowatts continuous beam
>output, with a range between 12 and 20km as long as the craft
>operates below cloud level.
>
>They seem to imply that the weapon is completely silent in
>operation and effect, and the ideal weapon for close air
>support.  The package was apparently demonstrated to SOCOM in
>1999.
>
>But no sound --
>________________
>Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
>Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

Victor Raymond  / vraymond@iastate.edu
ISU Sociology Department



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 00:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 16 23:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Tech levelling (was Re: Victory in the Frontier Wars)
In-Reply-To: <i0qrluovbv5unu0u4i9un4innhe343m6pc@4ax.com>
References: <20020816232302.6238.63480.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <i0qrluovbv5unu0u4i9un4innhe343m6pc@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <1746.64.8.3.28.1029565504.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

Hello Jeff,

> _Could_ be?  Almost certainly.  _Should_ be, or _want_ to be?  Might be
> another story.  If everyone is at the same TL, what happens to the tech
> export market?  In fact, what happens to the entirety of interstellar
> trade?  Won't the only thing worth shipping - no matter what trade
> rules you use - be limited-availability locally-unique luxuries?
> Hardly enough of a market for an Imperium built on trade...

I was impressed with POCKET EMPIRES explanation of why we have trade.  It
isn't that we have one world with a higher tech monopolizing on trade with
the surrounding low tech worlds - it is a matter of economic inequities
where world A is more effecient at manufacturing widget A while World B is
more efficient at manufacturing widget B.  Rather than make both Widgets A
and B on both worlds, A makes widget A, and imports widget B.  B imports
widget A and exports widget B.  Between the two of them, they have an
overall savings in cost for their needs *by* trading as opposed to
manufacturing.
  The only other reasons for trade would be a manufacturing world needing
  raw materials and trade markets.

                     Hal



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 00:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Fri Aug 16 23:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] 2d6 bell curve
Message-ID: <008901c245b7$c934af00$ca413b41@customer>

Thank you all for your help. Bell curve probably not the right phrase.  I'm
trying to turn die rolls into percentages, e.g how many psi's the Zohdani
have based on the die roll to determine power level.

Are percetages below correct?

Roll    Chances
2         1 in 36    02.77%
3         2 in 36    08.33%
4         3 in 36    16.66%
5         4 in 36    27.77%
6         5 in 36    41.66%
7         6 in 36    58.33%
8         5 in 36    41.66%
9         4 in 36    27.77%
10       3 in 36    16.66%
11       2 in 36    08.33%
12       1 in 36    02.77%

John Scarlett
------------------------------------
Sanity is a madness put to good uses. -- George Santayana




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 00:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 16 23:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] 2d6 bell curve
In-Reply-To: <008901c245b7$c934af00$ca413b41@customer>
References: <008901c245b7$c934af00$ca413b41@customer>
Message-ID: <2073.64.8.3.28.1029566427.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

Hello John,
  Below is your chart in its original form.  Below that chart is my
  corrected form based on what it appears you are trying to do:

> Are percetages below correct?
>
> Roll    Chances
> 2         1 in 36    02.77%
> 3         2 in 36    08.33%
> 4         3 in 36    16.66%
> 5         4 in 36    27.77%
> 6         5 in 36    41.66%
> 7         6 in 36    58.33%
> 8         5 in 36    41.66%
> 9         4 in 36    27.77%
> 10       3 in 36    16.66%
> 11       2 in 36    08.33%
> 12       1 in 36    02.77%

2 or 12:   2.78%
3 or 11:   5.56%
4 or 10:   8.33%
5 or  9:  11.11%
6 or  8:  13.89%
7      :  16.67%



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 01:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug 17 00:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] 2d6 bell curve
In-Reply-To: <005301c245a8$b212e440$ca413b41@customer>
Message-ID: <B9834692.6A0CA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/16/02 9:43 PM, John Scarlett at jlscarlett@earthlink.net wrote:

> Some help please.  Does anyone have or know where I can find a bell curve
> for 2 six sided dice.  Mind you I'm not that mathematically incline so it
> would have to something simple.
>=20
> Thanks in advance.
> John Scarlett

See http://www.travellercentral.com/rules/dice.html

Tod

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 01:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Ayers)
Date: Sat Aug 17 00:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] 2d6 bell curve
In-Reply-To: <3D5DDA45.4340BA82@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <002201c245c0$82015d00$2f7de40c@loki>

One more way to SEE it.......................

                     *
                 *   *   *
             *   *   *   *   *
         *   *   *   *   *   *   *
     *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *    *
 *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *    *    *
 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 02:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug 17 01:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
References: <53.1b1ff013.2a8f29b1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <004101c245c7$371c3880$3716bd50@martinjd>

>
> If I'm a major admiral, then what I've spent my life working on is the
> defense of the realm, at the risk of being irradiated or vaccumed or
lasered
> or nuked.  If the defense of the realm required me to stand up and speak
out
> and lose money, that would be a piece of cake.

You would think, no? But read history, or modern politics....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 02:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug 17 01:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Tech levelling (was Re: Victory in the Frontier Wars)
In-Reply-To: <i0qrluovbv5unu0u4i9un4innhe343m6pc@4ax.com>
References: <20020816232302.6238.63480.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <i0qrluovbv5unu0u4i9un4innhe343m6pc@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020817184920.A30765@freeman.little-possums.net>

Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
> If everyone is at the same TL, what happens to the tech export
> market?  In fact, what happens to the entirety of interstellar
> trade?

That's right.  Nations of the same TL don't do any trade.  That's why
only a few small tramp ships a year straggle out of Japan to other
modern industrialised countries.


>  Won't the only thing worth shipping - no matter what trade rules
> you use - be limited-availability locally-unique luxuries?

Yes, you're right.  Australia only exports Tasmanian Devil Steaks.
The technology exists in Ausrtalia to make all its own clothes, so the
nation imports none at all from China.  You can get petrochemicals on
any continent, so that explains why oil tankers don't exist.


Good to know that trade in the Imperium works the same way as the real
world.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 03:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug 17 02:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Tech levelling (was Re: Victory in the Frontier Wars)
In-Reply-To: <20020817184920.A30765@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20020816232302.6238.63480.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <i0qrluovbv5unu0u4i9un4innhe343m6pc@4ax.com> <20020817184920.A30765@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020817190246.B30765@freeman.little-possums.net>

Timothy Little wrote:
[Some rather uncalled-for sarcastic irony]

I am very sorry for posting a message of that tone on the TML.  In
future, I will follow the time-honoured advice of waiting at least
five minutes before pressing "send".  :(


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 03:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 17 02:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Tech levelling (was Re: Victory in the Frontier Wars)
In-Reply-To: <20020817190246.B30765@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20020816232302.6238.63480.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <i0qrluovbv5unu0u4i9un4innhe343m6pc@4ax.com>
 <20020817184920.A30765@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <20020817190246.B30765@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3196.64.8.3.28.1029575436.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

> Timothy Little wrote:
> [Some rather uncalled-for sarcastic irony]
>
> I am very sorry for posting a message of that tone on the TML.  In
> future, I will follow the time-honoured advice of waiting at least five
> minutes before pressing "send".  :(

For your penance Brother Tim, thou shalt write a newbie Essay detailing
the trafficking of Groats via the Imperial trade lanes.  Once thou hast
done that minor task, thou shalt wear coats of virgin Groathair, wetted
down with mineral oil and soaked in Cayenne PepperJuice Extract.  Only
then will thou has redeemed thyself in the eyes of thine order's brothren.

          Brother Hal



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 04:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 17 03:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814093359.01680b70@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20817.025944.1p9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 12:26 AM 8/14/2002 -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>In mail you write:
>> > So far, the official numbers seem to indicate that there's not an
>> > awful lot of trade in relative terms.  This is not awfully surprising:
>> > it's expensive to put stuff up into orbit and expensive to ship it.
>>Huh? What makes you think it's expensive to get stuff into orbit?
>>I seem to recall someone running the numbers a while back and having it
>>come out cheaper than shipping by rail.
>
> Isn't the access to launch facilities a bit more limited than rail access?

*Starports* may be limited on a world (or not, if it has a really high
traffic volume). But consider that Earth is listed as having something
like 3 or 4 somewhere or other.

Most ground to orbit vehicles in Traveller can land at the equivalent
of a an airport. A *small* one. 

Heck, if you aren't using Heplar or the like, a ships boat or a modular
cutter ought to be able to land and take off from a small *parking lot*.

Also, anybody with the tech to do CG vehicles is going to have little
trouble moving cargo between any two points on a planet.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 05:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 17 04:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <B9806BBF.69A71%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20817.035102.8c0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Ref:  "Have you ever heard that high whine with the increasing pitch
>        that a camera flash makes before it is fully charged?"
> Player:  "Yes."
> Ref:  "You're hearing that right now."

This is even worse if you happen to know about some of the things that
need that sort of power build-up to trigger. <eg>

Just think of all the nasties that need a pulse of high voltage, high
current power. 

Everything from jury-rigged EMP bombs to homevuilt nukes. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 05:27:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 17 04:27:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economy
In-Reply-To: <20020815080747.A23732@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20817.030410.4g0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Mark Urbin wrote:
>> Isn't the access to launch facilities a bit more limited than rail
>> access?
>
> Not when there are mass-market contragrav vehicles.  "Launch
> facilities" can be anywhere with a view of the sky.
>
> You only need discrete launch facilities when the only way to get into
> space is through dangerous, massive, and/or exceedingly costly
> equipment.  That ceases to be true as soon as contragrav is invented.

Yep, the reason for the siting of most current space launch facilities
is so that there's nothing important "downrange" of them.

And "downrange" is determined mostly by latitude and the earth's
rotation. For various reason's, it's easiest to launch a vehicle *with*
the earth's rotation (at the equator this gives you around 1000 mph of
extra speed). And you can only launch into an orbit with an inclination
*less* than your latitude by expending a lot of extra fuel. In fact,
that's one of the things that was used to pin down locations for the
Soviet launch complexes. 

Vandenberg is used for launches into polar orbit, because it doesn't
have anything important due south. Kennedy is limited by not wanting to
launch over various carribean islands, most notably Cuba.

But if you have high ISP rockets, or thruster plate tech, you can
pretty much ignore these details. 

> In fact, if you have contragrav you can even get into orbit without
> thrusters.

And with thruster plates, you can also be a lot closer to
civilization, because you don't have to use flying bombs as propulsion.

For lower tech worlds, spaceport locations will be more restricted.
there was a good article on where likely places for major spaceports on
Earth would likely spring up published in Analog sometime in the last
10-15 years. I think it was one of G. Haryy Stine's Alternate View
columns.

Oh yeah, that reminds me. Baen books just released "Med Ship" by Murray
Leinster. It's a collection of all his "Med Ship" stories. hey are set
in a universe that's got a lot of similarities with the TU. And some
big differences. Even so, it'd be fairly easy to make into a variant
Traveller.

Their answer to geting into orbit is "interesting". <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 05:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 17 04:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Vilani Chess
In-Reply-To: <l03010d05b9804706017d@[192.168.1.67]>
Message-ID: <20817.041129.4j9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> As I mentioned yesterday, this is something I'm working up for inclusion as
> a sidebar to GT: Nobles, as a bit of chrome. I am also thinking about a
> "pure" Vilani boardgame, but that will probably be a loosely disguised lift
> of some other ancient game, like Senet or Latrones or some such. 

Well, Nine Man Morris is pretty darned old. And it's both simple and a
bear to get *good* at. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 05:33:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 17 04:33:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <memo.870081@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20817.035325.8b6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020814155827.00b54720@mailhost.efn.org>
>
>> I don't think that it's fair to start counting down without giving 
>> *some* hint as to what the characters should be reacting to.  
>
> What if the 'clue' is a mechanical voice counting down?

"I'm a thirty second bomb. I'm a thirty second bomb. 29..."

I've got an electronic kitchen timer with an LCD display that has 1"
tall digits. Might be fun to pre set it to something and when players
ask "what do we see?" show that that, *after* hitting the start button.
<eg>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 06:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sat Aug 17 05:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
Message-ID: <3d5e36c8.6019642@post.demon.co.uk>

I've noticed a disturbing trend among some starship designers to give
luxury accommodation to the ship's crew.  Even individual staterooms
for each rating are not considered extravagant.

=46rankly, I think this mollycoddling and pampering will be fatal to the
morale of His Imperial Majesty's navy.

I've come to this conclusion after doing some reading on shipboard
life during the Age of Sail (which we all know Trav is partially based
on).  On a typical 74-gun ship of the line:

Senior officers had 8' square cabins, with a deck height of 6'.  That
makes about 10 square metres per officer:  or a single 4-ton standard
stateroom per 5 officers.

The crew of 500 were accommodated in an area of about 6000 square
feet.  Assuming the same deck height, that makes 1000 cubic metres or
2 cu.m per man.  One 4-ton stateroom per 28 people.

Of course, when the ship was at sea the crew would be observing
watches, so only half the crew would be asleep at one time, and they'd
have effectively twice the amount of space.  In Traveller terms, that
would equate to hot-bunking.

It's also worth pointing out that this accommodation wasn't only for
short periods:  many sailers would spend 4-5 years on shipboard before
they ever set foot on land again.

So, simplifying things a little, let's say officers get to share a
double stateroom with hot-bunking (1 per 4 officers) and crew are in
16-person bunkrooms, again with hot-bunking (1 per 32 crew). =20

Introduce this as standard design policy for warships and think how
much extra volume for weapons and powerplants will be freed up!

(Of course the crews might grumble a little, but introduce a few of
the disciplinary policies from the Age of Sail as well and they'll
soon settle down...)

Stephen

www.stempest.demon.co.uk/traveller/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 06:27:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sat Aug 17 05:27:45 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <memo.932774@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <20020817041418.74310.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>
> Oh come on guys.  The man has done something that only
> three other men have done in the history of the game. 
> I mean, there have only been 3 other guys in the past
> 100+ years that have done what this man has done.  And
> he's not finished.  He is doing it with less "help"
> and quicker than any of the others (at least the last
> 100).  Surely that doesn't escape notice and at least
> a little awe and respect.

It makes a lot of sense if you happen to be interested in the sport 
concerned, and perhaps a passing moment of notice if you don't care for, 
what was it, baseball, but do respect achievement. It does help when you 
understand what the achievement actually *is* - and I think that's the 
point people are making, the way this fellow's accomplishment is being 
expressed is in such game-related terms that only a devotee of the game 
can tell what he's done that is noteworthy.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 06:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Aug 17 05:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Note on labgrab ring code...
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020817083642.01688e50@mail.charter.net>

If you are using frames on your site, the code has to exit your frames when 
clicked.
If you don't know how to do this, and are using frames, you shouldn't be 
using frames.

I'll fix the default code today so it does this automatically.

Second, the ring code has be on the page registered with the ring.

None of this, ring code takes to one page and the surfer has to hunt for 
the ring code to continue travelling the ring stuff.



-----------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Whether you're Bill Clinton or the head of a large
corporation like Enron, it seems the best defense
in any legal matter is to act like you just arrived
on the planet." -- Spencer F. Katt
-----------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 16:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 17 15:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Victory in the Frontier Wars
Message-ID: <14c.129326ec.2a8fa9d6@aol.com>

>>Doug - you must have written that when I was not paying attention to the 
>>list.
>>  Was it a post, or published?  Where can I find a copy?
>
>It is in GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces.  Found in better gaming shops 
>everywhere.

Absolutely. Buy one, and give Doug his $0.27 and me my . . . um . . . hmmmmm 
. . . SJ pays Marc . . . [punches buttons on calculator] . . . Marc pays me . 
. . ummm [punches more buttons on calculator] . . . hmmmmm if we can sell one 
to every inhabitant of Los Angeles [more buttons]

 [sigh]

Well, All I can suggest is that you buy at least one. I'm sure Doug will 
agree.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 16:53:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Sat Aug 17 15:53:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <3d5e36c8.6019642@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFCENCDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

I've been thinking of using quad bunk racking for sleeping accommodation for
lower ranks but with greatly enlarged mess and rec areas to compensate.
Petty Officers and Officers would get smaller sleeping areas and their own
messes with the amount of space increasing as you rank went up.  Only the
most senior NCO, 1st Lt and CO would get cabins.  This would give plenty of
recreation space etc (useful for training).

For ex.

20 ratings per Large stateroom - Saves 4 large Staterooms - use 3 for mess
area.
6 NCOs per Small Stateroom - saves 5 small staterooms - Use 4 for mess NCOs
mess.
2 snr NCOs per Sml Stateroom - share NCOs mess.
1 Snr NCO in a small stateroom - also share NCOs mess as president.
6 Jnr Officers (midshipman or subbies) per large stateroom share Wardroom.
2 Officers per small stateroom
1st Lt get small stateroom
CO gets Lrg Stateroom

I can't dig out figs or examples of what difference this would make as all
my Trav stuff is packed right now.

Comments

Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.
I need to remember details like that, until we get to know each other
better.  Some men get so nervous if a lady shows up at the restaurant with a
box of explosives. - Florence, www.purrsia.com/Freefall , 7th Dec 2001

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Stephen Tempest
> Sent: 17 August 2002 13:10
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
>
>
> I've noticed a disturbing trend among some starship designers to give
> luxury accommodation to the ship's crew.  Even individual staterooms
> for each rating are not considered extravagant.
>
> Frankly, I think this mollycoddling and pampering will be fatal to the
> morale of His Imperial Majesty's navy.
>
> I've come to this conclusion after doing some reading on shipboard
> life during the Age of Sail (which we all know Trav is partially based
> on).  On a typical 74-gun ship of the line:
>
> Senior officers had 8' square cabins, with a deck height of 6'.  That
> makes about 10 square metres per officer:  or a single 4-ton standard
> stateroom per 5 officers.
>
> The crew of 500 were accommodated in an area of about 6000 square
> feet.  Assuming the same deck height, that makes 1000 cubic metres or
> 2 cu.m per man.  One 4-ton stateroom per 28 people.
>
> Of course, when the ship was at sea the crew would be observing
> watches, so only half the crew would be asleep at one time, and they'd
> have effectively twice the amount of space.  In Traveller terms, that
> would equate to hot-bunking.
>
> It's also worth pointing out that this accommodation wasn't only for
> short periods:  many sailers would spend 4-5 years on shipboard before
> they ever set foot on land again.
>
> So, simplifying things a little, let's say officers get to share a
> double stateroom with hot-bunking (1 per 4 officers) and crew are in
> 16-person bunkrooms, again with hot-bunking (1 per 32 crew).
>
> Introduce this as standard design policy for warships and think how
> much extra volume for weapons and powerplants will be freed up!
>
> (Of course the crews might grumble a little, but introduce a few of
> the disciplinary policies from the Age of Sail as well and they'll
> soon settle down...)
>
> Stephen
>
> www.stempest.demon.co.uk/traveller/
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 16:54:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Sat Aug 17 15:54:51 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <20020817041418.74310.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFOENBDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

All kidding aside I am truly baffled.  I take it on faith that someone
(Barry Bonds I guess) has achieved an impressive sporting milestone, for
which I congratulate him, but I still don't have the faintest idea what the
conversation was about.

Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.
I need to remember details like that, until we get to know each other
better.  Some men get so nervous if a lady shows up at the restaurant with a
box of explosives. - Florence, www.purrsia.com/Freefall , 7th Dec 2001

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Paul Walker
> Sent: 17 August 2002 05:14
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
>
>
> --- "Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>" <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> > "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@yahoo.com> writes:
> > >
> > > they don't make no sense t'me neither and I live
> > on the same
> > > continent as one, same region as the other
> >
> > I understood it, but I don't understand it, if you
> > follow me.
>
> Oh come on guys.  The man has done something that only
> three other men have done in the history of the game.
> I mean, there have only been 3 other guys in the past
> 100+ years that have done what this man has done.  And
> he's not finished.  He is doing it with less "help"
> and quicker than any of the others (at least the last
> 100).  Surely that doesn't escape notice and at least
> a little awe and respect.
>
> Paul
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
> http://www.hotjobs.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 16:55:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Sat Aug 17 15:55:48 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020816201133.009e25d0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFKENBDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

Huh???  No kidding what 600 hysteria; if it's sport it's got to be one of
your American games or racing of some sort.  Now over here my big sports
news (as far as I can tell) is 1st day of Premiership football season
(soccer to the ones on the other side of the pond).

Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.
I need to remember details like that, until we get to know each other
better.  Some men get so nervous if a lady shows up at the restaurant with a
box of explosives. - Florence, www.purrsia.com/Freefall , 7th Dec 2001

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
> Sent: 17 August 2002 04:12
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
>
>
> At 04:38 PM 8/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
> > >From: "Peter Scarrott" <peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
> >
> > >To bring this On Topic I saved these messages to give to my players
> > >as alien contact guides.  You guys are the same species as us, speak
> > >the same language and belong to the same (general) society and yet
> > >the following messages make no sense to me whatsoever.
> >
> >they don't make no sense t'me neither and I live on the same
> >continent as one, same region as the other
>
> You're kidding me.  You managed to miss the 600 hysteria!?
>
>
> --
>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
>
> "Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
> sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 16:57:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat Aug 17 15:57:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Human Nature or "WWRD" or "WWAD"
In-Reply-To: <1614.64.8.3.28.1029564619.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEFOEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

I think that jump 5/6 ships should be reserved for special missions. Things
like courier duty and special ops, not line of battle stuff.  So a slightly
larger fully stealthed scoutship with more legs for deep recon is an
excellent idea. Obviously such a ship would be lightly armed. If they're
seen they should run, not fight.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of hal@buffnet.net
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2002 2:10 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Human Nature or "WWRD" or "WWAD"

After seeing this discussion regards to the constant Zhodani pressure
against the Spinward Marches frontier, I keep having to ask myself...


What would Russia Do?

What would America Do?

In short?  Knowing you have an enemy who fully intends to push the
borders, I'd start thinking about the next war knowing there *will* be a
war.

Furthermore?  I'm not all that certain that having a Jump 5 Warship is all
that needful.  I would almost rather see a bunch of warships that could
hold the line against an enemy aggessor.  Perhaps a few planetoid Monitor
type defenses along with a few scouting elements to constantly keep an eye
on the comings and goings on of Zhodani ships in their own territory.
Nothing like using scout ships to shadow enemy fleet build ups.  Deep
recon missions if you will...

Comments?


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Graham Donald)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rebellion PBEM?
Message-ID: <LAW2-F12aTh2oJfjhCA00014374@hotmail.com>

I remember reading somewhere that someone was working on a PBEM to simulate 
the Rebellion, in which people would take the part of the various factions.

Does anyone have any information on this project?

Graham





_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Vickers)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <memo.932774@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAKEDJDLAA.redroach@pobox.com>

the way this fellow's accomplishment is being
expressed is in such game-related terms that only a devotee of the game
can tell what he's done that is noteworthy.


I am a devotee of said game, but I still don't understand the furor. Its
just Barry Bonds. Loud mouth and possibly baseball player.
Its not like he found a cure for Polio or something.

TV


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:04:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:04:00 2002
Subject: [TML] Human Nature or "WWRD" or "WWAD"
In-Reply-To: <1614.64.8.3.28.1029564619.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <14prlukovr8b9uqj0u65dbd1sajo6rno6g@4ax.com>
 <20020816232302.6238.63480.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <14prlukovr8b9uqj0u65dbd1sajo6rno6g@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817090545.009eb100@mindspring.com>

At 02:10 AM 8/17/02 -0400, you wrote:
>After seeing this discussion regards to the constant Zhodani pressure
>against the Spinward Marches frontier, I keep having to ask myself...
>
>What would Russia Do?

Get drunk on vodka

>What would America Do?

Get drunk on crappy beer.

>In short?  Knowing you have an enemy who fully intends to push the
>borders, I'd start thinking about the next war knowing there *will* be a
>war.
>
>Furthermore?  I'm not all that certain that having a Jump 5 Warship is all
>that needful.  I would almost rather see a bunch of warships that could
>hold the line against an enemy aggessor.  Perhaps a few planetoid Monitor
>type defenses along with a few scouting elements to constantly keep an eye
>on the comings and goings on of Zhodani ships in their own territory.
>Nothing like using scout ships to shadow enemy fleet build ups.  Deep
>recon missions if you will..

I've always thought that the worlds on the edge of Zhodani space will 
either have a large local fleet with planetoid monitors, massive orbital 
and ground based defenses, or they will have the declaration of "open 
world" status taped next to the deep space transmitters.

Some worlds simply cannot afford or maintain the forces necessary to even 
slow down the Zhos for five minutes.  Their best bet is to hunker down and 
wait for the Imperial Navy to come along and kick the invaders out.  Some 
worlds in the Jewell cluster will fight, even if it is solely as guerrillas.

There will be deep penetration raids, and the IISS will be racing around 
trying to piece together a clear picture of the Zhodani movements.  Trying 
to track down your own command structure could be just as difficult as 
finding the enemy!

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Death is an experience best avoided, as it makes
reliable internet access difficult to obtain.
                        - Xaonon, in alt.atheism



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:05:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:05:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
References: <3d5e36c8.6019642@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3D5E795F.ADC2DCBF@mindspring.com>

Stephen Tempest wrote:
> 
> I've noticed a disturbing trend among some starship designers to give
> luxury accommodation to the ship's crew.  Even individual staterooms
> for each rating are not considered extravagant.
> 
> Frankly, I think this mollycoddling and pampering will be fatal to the
> morale of His Imperial Majesty's navy.
> 
> I've come to this conclusion after doing some reading on shipboard
> life during the Age of Sail (which we all know Trav is partially based
> on).  On a typical 74-gun ship of the line:
> 
> Senior officers had 8' square cabins, with a deck height of 6'.  That
> makes about 10 square metres per officer:  or a single 4-ton standard
> stateroom per 5 officers.
> 
> The crew of 500 were accommodated in an area of about 6000 square
> feet.  Assuming the same deck height, that makes 1000 cubic metres or
> 2 cu.m per man.  One 4-ton stateroom per 28 people.
> 
> Of course, when the ship was at sea the crew would be observing
> watches, so only half the crew would be asleep at one time, and they'd
> have effectively twice the amount of space.  In Traveller terms, that
> would equate to hot-bunking.
> 
> It's also worth pointing out that this accommodation wasn't only for
> short periods:  many sailers would spend 4-5 years on shipboard before
> they ever set foot on land again.
> 
> So, simplifying things a little, let's say officers get to share a
> double stateroom with hot-bunking (1 per 4 officers) and crew are in
> 16-person bunkrooms, again with hot-bunking (1 per 32 crew).
> 
> Introduce this as standard design policy for warships and think how
> much extra volume for weapons and powerplants will be freed up!
> 
> (Of course the crews might grumble a little, but introduce a few of
> the disciplinary policies from the Age of Sail as well and they'll
> soon settle down...)
> 
> Stephen
> 

I think that would be a little harsh.
IMMTU
On small ships the CO gets an individual small stateroom. Sr officers
may also get one. Jr. Officers and Sr. enlisted will usually bunk two
per small stateroom. Jr enlisted are in bunks.
On larger ships the CO gets an individual stateroom, possibly a luxury
stateroom. These might also be available for Sr. officers and staff of
an admiral. Jr officers and Sr. enlisted double or triple up in
staterooms or may have individual small staterooms. Jr enlisted are in
bunks.
No hot bunking except in emergencies.
These may change because of mission requirements. I have one class of
frigates for the 100th fleet with everyone but the CO in bunks. Of
course its J3 M6 and heavily armed with a PA bay and the Whipsnade
configurable turrets. 

Thanks again for the missile tactic, unknown tactician. This ship was
inadvertently built for it.
IMLE that's the way the US navy worked and if it was good enough for me
its good enough for my descendants.
YMMV.

-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute.
That's relativity.
                               -Albert Einstein

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:06:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:06:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Landgrab Webring URL
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816225841.00cee348@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817091409.009ebab0@mindspring.com>

At 10:59 PM 8/16/02 -0400, you wrote:
>http://www.urbin.net/EWW/RPG/TRAV/LGWR/
>
>Share and enjoy....

OK, time to get the Heya page put together.  Along with getting ready for 
WorldCon.  And preparing for my oral board with Foster City.  And the 
upcoming playtest.  And my trip to Orycon...

For a guy on disability, I'm pretty busy.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
- Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Tech Levelling
Message-ID: <ieltlusdgnbfqc0tunp6ud23ifflbe4256@4ax.com>

On Sat, 17 Aug 2002 04:26:03 -0700, hal@buffnet.net wrote:

[Quoting me]

>> _Could_ be?  Almost certainly.  _Should_ be, or _want_ to be?  Might be
>> another story.  If everyone is at the same TL, what happens to the tech
>> export market?  In fact, what happens to the entirety of interstellar
>> trade?  Won't the only thing worth shipping - no matter what trade
>> rules you use - be limited-availability locally-unique luxuries?
>> Hardly enough of a market for an Imperium built on trade...

>I was impressed with POCKET EMPIRES explanation of why we have trade.  It
>isn't that we have one world with a higher tech monopolizing on trade with
>the surrounding low tech worlds - it is a matter of economic inequities
>where world A is more effecient at manufacturing widget A while World B is
>more efficient at manufacturing widget B.  Rather than make both Widgets A
>and B on both worlds, A makes widget A, and imports widget B.  B imports
>widget A and exports widget B.  Between the two of them, they have an
>overall savings in cost for their needs *by* trading as opposed to
>manufacturing.

Oh, yes, I did oversimplify - but one very important aspect of tech level
will be efficiency.  As I read the tech progression, _except_ for the
transitions across the 'plateau' TLs, most (but admittedly not all) of the
gain in TL represents a gain in efficiency of manufacture/processing/
whatever.  Unless deliberately induced, it's unlikely that variation in
efficiency will result in a trade benefit when the cost of shipping is
accounted for - because the cost of shipping is so high (and that's with
the broken, can't-make-a-profit canonical rules).

>  The only other reasons for trade would be a manufacturing world needing
>  raw materials and trade markets.

And _that_ is another argument against tech levelling - lower TLs often
mean lower total cost of production of raw materials, or of simpler
manufacture of goods where the good doesn't really change with TL, even
though more labor may be required.  Think about why Latin America and
places like India, Indonesia, the Philippines, etc., are at generally lower
TL than western Europe or non-Latin America.




--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:07:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:07:55 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <16b.124568c1.2a8f29fe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817092651.009de420@mindspring.com>

At 12:24 AM 8/17/02 -0400, you wrote:
>  >All for a quixoic attempt to start a war
>  >that nobody wants?
>
>As everyone will recall, it is the Zhodani that are already starting wars
>that nobody wants.

4.5 wars in 500+ years.  By your logic we should *immediately* nuke 
Germany.  They've started two devastating wars in the last 100 
years.  Remember that to the average Imperial citizen before 1107, the 
Frontier Wars were either history or that joke of a war that happened 20 
years ago.

Tell me, if I came up to you and insisted that Sweden was a threat to our 
way of life, what would you say?


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Children nowadays are not respectful of their parents. They grab the best
food at the table without thought of sharing. They trample on their
parents' toes as they move around the room, and if there are visitors,
they interrupt rudely with their own concerns.  --Socrates, c. 5th century BC




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:08:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:08:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Tech Levelling
Message-ID: <lfltluk0rocq2fhglkaq24jvjemv56mupr@4ax.com>

On Sat, 17 Aug 2002 04:26:03 -0700, Timothy Little
<tim@freeman.little-possums.net> wrote:

>Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
>> If everyone is at the same TL, what happens to the tech export
>> market?  In fact, what happens to the entirety of interstellar
>> trade?

>That's right.  Nations of the same TL don't do any trade.  That's why
>only a few small tramp ships a year straggle out of Japan to other
>modern industrialised countries.

Think cost of transport as an additional factor.  If shipping a car from
Japan to the US added an additional $1000 per Traveller Displacement Ton
(or about $1000-1500 per car [I assumed dimensions of 15'x8'x5']) per week,
and it took a minimum of a week to get from origin to destination, would
there be as much trade in cars between the US and Japan?  And at that, how
many cars are really imported from Japan any more?  Most of the Japanese
companies have set up to do some manufacture here in the US.

>>  Won't the only thing worth shipping - no matter what trade rules
>> you use - be limited-availability locally-unique luxuries?

>Yes, you're right.  Australia only exports Tasmanian Devil Steaks.
>The technology exists in Ausrtalia to make all its own clothes, so the
>nation imports none at all from China.  You can get petrochemicals on
>any continent, so that explains why oil tankers don't exist.

Ummm... Look again: China is at a lower TL than Australia, and clothing is
one of those things where it costs less to make at a lower TL.

And what _does_ Australia export?  And to where?  I don't see very much of
anything that has 'Made in Australia' on it...

Current petroleum production techniques haven't really changed all that
much since about 1940, have they?  And it's not really cost-effective to
use those techniques in some areas, like Burma and the US Southwest, is it,
because those fields don't really produce all that much.  But if you use
(higher TL) productive techniques there, it's still too expensive to
compete with the TL5/6 oil coming out of the Arabian peninsula.  And it
would still be cheaper to get at the more accessible Arabian oil even with
the same higher TL production techniques.

Yes, I simplified in my earlier posts, and yes, I omitted some factors that
I shouldn't have.  But TL _is_ a big factor in trade, even in the real
world today.

>Good to know that trade in the Imperium works the same way as the real
>world.

I suspect it actually does.  But you have to remember to take into account
that while TWIAVBP, the Imperium is a much bigger place, even
proportionally...

[and in a separate message]

>Timothy Little wrote:
>[Some rather uncalled-for sarcastic irony]

>I am very sorry for posting a message of that tone on the TML.  In
>future, I will follow the time-honoured advice of waiting at least
>five minutes before pressing "send".  :(

De nada!  You made some valid points; and snarkasm is in the mind of the
beholder.  I didn't take it that way.



--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:09:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:09:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value
 targets)
In-Reply-To: <19d.71c6b86.2a8f276b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817094854.009f3ec0@mindspring.com>

At 12:13 AM 8/17/02 -0400, you wrote:

>Were there any who didn't?  I suppose the Vargr and the Aslans consider
>themselves to be content with _their_ borders -- not to mention the Zhodani
>themselves, who have been absorbing Imperial worlds for 500 years now.

Not supported by the maps in Spinward Marches Campaign.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:10:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:10:40 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <20817.035325.8b6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <memo.870081@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817094644.009df2d0@mindspring.com>

At 03:53 AM 8/17/02 -0800, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
> > In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020814155827.00b54720@mailhost.efn.org>
> >
> >> I don't think that it's fair to start counting down without giving
> >> *some* hint as to what the characters should be reacting to.
> >
> > What if the 'clue' is a mechanical voice counting down?
>
>"I'm a thirty second bomb. I'm a thirty second bomb. 29..."
>
>I've got an electronic kitchen timer with an LCD display that has 1"
>tall digits. Might be fun to pre set it to something and when players
>ask "what do we see?" show that that, *after* hitting the start button.
><eg>

I pulled that in a modern-day CORPS game.  With five seconds left on the 
clock, I called out "BOOM!"  When the players complained about there still 
being time on the clock, i told them "You are dealing with an insane 
bomber, and you expect him to be honest with his timepieces?

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Some days, you just can't get rid  of a bomb!"
                     -Adam West, as Batman 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:11:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:11:46 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <20020817041418.74310.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <m33ctegndc.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817093312.009d7040@mindspring.com>

At 09:14 PM 8/16/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Oh come on guys.  The man has done something that only
>three other men have done in the history of the game.
>I mean, there have only been 3 other guys in the past
>100+ years that have done what this man has done.  And
>he's not finished.  He is doing it with less "help"
>and quicker than any of the others (at least the last
>100).  Surely that doesn't escape notice and at least
>a little awe and respect.

There are many sports that I don't get, like hockey.  But when Gretzky 
shattered every scoring record, I knew enough to be impressed.

ObTrav: the characters get the 57th Century equivalent of Barry Bonds on 
their ship.. only they have no idea who he is!


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:12:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:12:41 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <1a8.6e10ff1.2a8ea4f7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817093149.009e6d90@mindspring.com>

At 02:56 PM 8/16/02 -0400, you wrote:

>  >It's been 49 years.  The Korean War would have ended in 1951 had Mac
>  >listened to his orders and stopped short of the Yalu.  But no, Dugout Doug
>  >had to threaten Mao and provoke a massive attack.  After the Chinese came
>  >in, there was no hope of dismantling the DPRK.
>
>And with the Chinese openly threatening to nuke Los Angeles and openly
>preparing for war with us, I think that merely expands my statement regarding
>his dismissal.

Pax Americana?  You volunteering for occupation duty?


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:13:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:13:37 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <53.1b1ff013.2a8f29b1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817092353.009f0b80@mindspring.com>

At 12:23 AM 8/17/02 -0400, you wrote:

>  >OK, you face losing everything you've spent your life working on.  We are
>  >taking about a thirty year career here.  And probably a nice title, a
>  >pension, and life time on the lecture circut, making money telling 
> Tales to
>  >Curl Your Toes.
>
>Money?
>
>If I'm a major admiral, then what I've spent my life working on is the
>defense of the realm, at the risk of being irradiated or vaccumed or lasered
>or nuked.  If the defense of the realm required me to stand up and speak out
>and lose money, that would be a piece of cake.

You snipped the bit about spending the rest of your life on an Exile 
World.  You notice we haven't heard anything from Admiral Lord Santocheev 
since Norris sacked him...

You seem to be quite single-minded on the subject.  So was MacArthur.  Look 
where it got him.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry   gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Cry "CHEEBLE!" and let slip the hamsters of war!



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:14:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:14:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <3d5e36c8.6019642@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817091639.009e3740@mindspring.com>

At 12:09 PM 8/17/02 +0000, you wrote:
>I've noticed a disturbing trend among some starship designers to give
>luxury accommodation to the ship's crew.  Even individual staterooms
>for each rating are not considered extravagant.
>
>Frankly, I think this mollycoddling and pampering will be fatal to the
>morale of His Imperial Majesty's navy.

I agree.  One of the reason for bunking members of the same fire team 
together in the Army is producing a tighter level of teamwork.  It 
works.  I still remember some of the Sunday night cleaning parties with 
fondness.  We worked as a team, trading turns on *my* stereo for working 
music, and after we were done, we had a room that would make a CSM weep 
with joy.

>So, simplifying things a little, let's say officers get to share a
>double stateroom with hot-bunking (1 per 4 officers) and crew are in
>16-person bunkrooms, again with hot-bunking (1 per 32 crew).

If I have the room, I avoid hotbunking.  These ships deploy for extremely 
long periods - years in some cases - and having a place that you can call 
your own is important.  Also, do you want to hotbunk with a Vargr?

>Introduce this as standard design policy for warships and think how
>much extra volume for weapons and powerplants will be freed up!

One thing I've done in the past is place crew sections throughout the ship.

>(Of course the crews might grumble a little, but introduce a few of
>the disciplinary policies from the Age of Sail as well and they'll
>soon settle down...)

Ah. . . Rum,  Sodomy, and the Lash.  The three great traditions of the 
Royal Navy.  :)

--

Duugirashir Irebamenagiin  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
Inquisitor Maximus, Reformed Canon Church of Sylea



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:15:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:15:35 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
References: <f8.201149a1.2a8f1e61@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D5E73F4.EDFF1BA2@mindspring.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> 
>  >> Near as I can figure, your position here is "Don't provoke the Zhodani"
> --
>  >> when they are the ones launching wars.  I just don't buy it.
>  >
>  >Well, within the FFW game the reason for not provoking the Zhodani by
> attacking
>  >behind the lines is because you hit this impenetrable border called 'the
> edge
>  >of the map'
> 
> Now that, I buy.
> 
> It's easy to forget that Traveller is an RPG about traders and mercs, not
> trade and
> war.
> 
>  >The main reason the Imperium doesn't launch
>  >similar raids into nearby Consulate worlds is that historically they've
> never
>  >really had the forces available to do so.
> 
> Well I'd like to know why.  

Zho mind rapers can make you do things, things you'd rather not do.
						-Sgt. Theophilus SavageIM, 1109

> I sat down and built the best ships I could from
> an AE world, and then the best I could from an AF world.  It takes 3 AE
> world's fleets to seriously challenge and AF world's fleet in a stand-up
> battle, and even then the AF world still wins.  The Imperium may have other
> obligations elsewhere, but I would think the Zhodani do to, and when I look
> at the number of AF worlds in the Imperium I have to wonder just what is
> going on that the Zhodani are able to concentrate such forces in Cronor while
> the Imperium in effect sits on its hands.  If a fleet were constructed from
> just six AF worlds (a small portion of what the Imperium has available to it
> even just in Vland, an inboard sector with no borders needing defense) 

Aren't the Vargar Corsairs just across the subsector border in The
Windhorn sector? IDR exactly when they made it around the horn. Sometime
during the Ziru Sirka? Wasn't the flaming eye a symbol of Vargar
raiders?

> and
> that fleet was parked in orbit above Cronor then the Zhodani would have to
> muster the resources of at least two entire sectors, and probably three, just
> to challenge it.  And that's not even counting what the Spinward Marches
> themselves could contribute.
> 
> But, again, it's just an RPG.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute.
That's relativity.
                               -Albert Einstein

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:16:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:16:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Damned Silly Questions
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020817180723.00ae6c10@minn.net>

I sorry about having to send this message again. For some reason the first
transmission had not appeared in my mail box as of this time.

I need to name a TIGRESS class dreadnought for parts 5 and 6 of Friends in
High Places.

Is there a feminine form of TOMCAT? If so, what is it?

Thanks in advance.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:18:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:18:28 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <200208172310.MZP01689@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry says
>Tell me, if I came up to you and insisted that Sweden was a 
>threat to our way of life, what would you say?

The US seems to think that way about Iraq.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:20:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (allensh)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:20:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Testing
In-Reply-To: <lfltluk0rocq2fhglkaq24jvjemv56mupr@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020817231228.88477.qmail@web13902.mail.yahoo.com>

just seeing if my mail will get through.

Allen

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
In-Reply-To: <15d.12a5e9bb.2a8f1a1c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFGENBDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

Sorry I should have expanded that comment - a few hours before reading
Doug's comment I had prowled the WotC D&D message boards archives and I
watched a HUGE Flame war over this particular issue.  People raving about
3rd Ed being better than 2nd Ed as it DIDN'T have such a comment.  Awesome,
it flew for days and took over most of the threads.

Anyway I've always considered any game to be a set of guidelines from which
I introduce house rules etc.  I just like it when the writers also accept
(and promote it) like Traveller does.

Roleplaying games are an excuse to enjoy yourself and stretch your
imagination to the utmost.  Any writer or player who does not approve of
players using their imaginations is missing the point.

Anyway rant over;

Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the
shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser
gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to
die." Replicant Roy Batty (Rutger Haur) Blade Runner

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of GDWGAMES@aol.com
> Sent: 17 August 2002 04:17
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] Re: OTU is out of wack.
>
>
> >Nice to see this comment from a published author.
>
> It expresses a sentiment held by Marc Miller, Frank Chadwick, and myself.
>
> LKW
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:24:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:24:08 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <20020816233848.47253.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFCENBDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

That's even more worrying for my players; I think I'll spring this on them
tomorrow and see how they react :)

Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.
I need to remember details like that, until we get to know each other
better.  Some men get so nervous if a lady shows up at the restaurant with a
box of explosives. - Florence, www.purrsia.com/Freefall , 7th Dec 2001

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Glenn M. Goffin
> Sent: 17 August 2002 00:39
> To: a a tml Tod
> Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
>
>
> >From: "Peter Scarrott" <peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
>
> >To bring this On Topic I saved these messages to give to my players
> >as alien contact guides.  You guys are the same species as us, speak
> >the same language and belong to the same (general) society and yet
> >the following messages make no sense to me whatsoever.
>
> they don't make no sense t'me neither and I live on the same
> continent as one, same region as the other
>
> --Glenn
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
> http://www.hotjobs.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:25:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Nick Wright)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:25:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Motown Keyboard Kill
Message-ID: <002801c245fd$db733c40$10cc87d9@fg>

>Nick Wright wrote :
>> Frankie (Munden) wrote:
>>
>> "I know Loren, Martin and John,    ...."
>>
>> Keyboard Kill, Sir.
>
>I have to admit that this kill was completely unintended.
>So unintended, in fact, that I still don't get it.
>Can you let me in on the joke, please?
>
>Frankie

Sorry to take so long to get back.  Abraham, Martin and John was indeed the
song I was thinking of but I couldn't get the Loren bit out of my head to
remember the real title.  Thank you Hal.  That's the trouble with a keyboard
kill, the aftershocks are dangerous too.

I remain, etc, etc.

Nick Wright




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:26:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dane Nattrass)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:26:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <3d5e36c8.6019642@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020817215311.022d7bc0@192.168.0.1>

(Of course the crews might grumble a little, but introduce a few of
the disciplinary policies from the Age of Sail as well and they'll
soon settle down...)

KEEL HAUL THAT ENLIST MR OUTISE, AND DON'T BE SHABBY ABOUT IT!
As for the other 15 they can watch, then clean off the hull with 
toothbrushes after we come out of jumpspace.
;)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Do I have to Yahoo! ?
In-Reply-To: <000c01c23f32$9edea020$c9c4d63f@customer>
Message-ID: <000001c24646$869a4f30$6401a8c0@GOCA>

Awe shit...  I subscribed to the group thinking this was sent to me..:)
I don't mind being in the group as long as its ok (apparently the offer
was NOT sent to me but John).

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of John Scarlett
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 16:24
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Do I have to Yahoo! ?

Could someone tell me if it is necessary to follow these instructions to
subscribe to The JTAS

John Scarlett

Hello jlscarlett@earthlink.net,

We have received your request to join the JTAS
group hosted by Yahoo! Groups, a free, easy-to-use community service.

This request will expire in 21 days.

TO BECOME A MEMBER OF THE GROUP:

1) Go to the Yahoo! Groups site by clicking on this link:


http://groups.yahoo.com/i?i=abztGutj6OteVF9ZVJaJNO_whCU&e=jlscarlett%40e
arth
link%2Enet

  (If clicking doesn't work, "Cut" and "Paste" the line above into your
   Web browser's address bar.)

-OR-

2) REPLY to this email by clicking "Reply" and then "Send"
   in your email program

If you did not request, or do not want, a membership in the
JTAS group, please accept our apologies
and ignore this message.

Regards,

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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:34:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:34:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Ping
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEJIINAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Pingy pingy pong pong 

________________
I wonder how much of people's perception of
history is formed by one side rolling
sixes and the other, straight ones.

jml
_________________ 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Damned Silly Questions
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020817113835.007bb100@minn.net>

I sorry about having to send this message again. For some reason the first
transmission had not appeared in my mail box as of this time.

I need to name a TIGRESS class dreadnought for parts 5 and 6 of Friends in
High Places.

Is there a feminine form of tomcat? If so, what is it?

Thanks in advance.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:44:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:44:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <3d5e36c8.6019642@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEGCEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

As someone who spent the good part of 20 years aboard modern naval vessels I
say keel haulin' is too good for anyone who suggests the use of bunkrooms on
Imperial Naval vessels.

Quite aside from my personal feelings, canon clearly states that staterooms
are the norm. I have no problem with stretching that out to 4 person
staterooms for military ratings and Marines. Since the rule of thumb is
one-half of a stateroom module space is in things like passageways and
common lounges, that would give each sophonts in a 4 person stateroom an
area seven feet long by four feet wide by nine feet high (this includes the
area between decks where gravity plates, power lines and life support are
installed.)  This is a reasonable space for a bunk and a storage locker.
Stack the bunks two high and you have enough room for a table or couch. I'd
put four such rooms around a fresher and allow the inhabitants to share it.

Put 16 people in the same 4 dton space and each sophonts gets less than 125
cuft. This subtracts the 2 feet space between decks and assumes the 54 sq ft
that the space should take up (using the standard area given in GT for dton
to deck space conversion. Basically you stack them three high and give just
enough space between bunks to walk, sideways. (The U.S. Navy requires 27 in
between accessible sides of bunks and a solid joiner wall between bunks.)

Unlike the plans in GT:Ground Forces there would be no space left for either
messing facilities or freshers. If you account for this space separately, as
should be done, you need to add a hall (10 spaces) per 700 persons for
messing. This assumes messing for 15% of crew. (Each hall seating 100 for
eating.)

I'm not sure how much room is necessary for freshers. The Navy requires one
water closet per 25 males and 3 urinals per 45 males. Females rate an equal
number of WC's plus a WC for each urinal required for male troops. They also
get 1 sink station per 20 crewmembers and 1 shower per 25 crewmembers. Each
sink station must be at least 24 in by 36 in with an accommodation space of
36 in. Each shower is 30 by 30 in with an accommodation area adjacent of
unspecified size, but my experience is that 36 in is common. Each WC must be
30 in wide by 21 in deep.

These number are from:

http://habitability.net/bbdata/9640a1.pdf

Which is the Navy habitability instruction. If you check the tables for
stateroom size you will see that Traveller staterooms, even with 50% of the
space relegated to other uses, are still larger than the staterooms used by
today's military forces. I don't know how the spaces compare to civilian
staterooms, as used by commercial seamen, or cabins on passenger vessels,
like a liner.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Stephen Tempest
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2002 8:10 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation

I've noticed a disturbing trend among some starship designers to give
luxury accommodation to the ship's crew.  Even individual staterooms
for each rating are not considered extravagant.

Frankly, I think this mollycoddling and pampering will be fatal to the
morale of His Imperial Majesty's navy.

I've come to this conclusion after doing some reading on shipboard
life during the Age of Sail (which we all know Trav is partially based
on).  On a typical 74-gun ship of the line:

Senior officers had 8' square cabins, with a deck height of 6'.  That
makes about 10 square metres per officer:  or a single 4-ton standard
stateroom per 5 officers.

The crew of 500 were accommodated in an area of about 6000 square
feet.  Assuming the same deck height, that makes 1000 cubic metres or
2 cu.m per man.  One 4-ton stateroom per 28 people.

Of course, when the ship was at sea the crew would be observing
watches, so only half the crew would be asleep at one time, and they'd
have effectively twice the amount of space.  In Traveller terms, that
would equate to hot-bunking.

It's also worth pointing out that this accommodation wasn't only for
short periods:  many sailers would spend 4-5 years on shipboard before
they ever set foot on land again.

So, simplifying things a little, let's say officers get to share a
double stateroom with hot-bunking (1 per 4 officers) and crew are in
16-person bunkrooms, again with hot-bunking (1 per 32 crew).

Introduce this as standard design policy for warships and think how
much extra volume for weapons and powerplants will be freed up!

(Of course the crews might grumble a little, but introduce a few of
the disciplinary policies from the Age of Sail as well and they'll
soon settle down...)

Stephen

www.stempest.demon.co.uk/traveller/
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] TML online
Message-ID: <B9842E6F.6A106%listmom@travellercentral.com>

As many of you probably notices, the TML was offline from about 5Am to 3PM
today.  This was due to an outage at our DSL provider (Verizon).

We are back online and mail is catching up.

-- 
listmom@travellercentral.com
for list information see
http://lists.travellercentral.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <20020817231435.11006.44766.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentr
 al.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020817164753.00b88008@mailhost.efn.org>

On Sat, 17 Aug 2002 09:48:16 -0700, Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> 
wrote:

>I pulled that in a modern-day CORPS game.  With five seconds left on the
>clock, I called out "BOOM!"  When the players complained about there still
>being time on the clock, i told them "You are dealing with an insane
>bomber, and you expect him to be honest with his timepieces?

One of my favorites from the Evil Overlord List:

"15. I will never employ any device with a digital countdown. If I find 
that such a device is absolutely unavoidable, I will set it to activate 
when the counter reaches 117 and the hero is just putting his plan into 
operation."


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 17:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat Aug 17 16:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <3D5E795F.ADC2DCBF@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEGDEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

One thing that is often forgotten, or at least not mentioned in Traveller is
the "sea" cabin. This is equivalent to Star Trek's ready room. It is a cabin
for the commanding officer (and on ships with an embarked staff the Admiral
and General each have one too near the tactical center) so that when the
situation is tense and the C.O. must be immediately available they can be
near the bridge without having to be "on" the bridge at all times. This
allows the captain someplace to take his shoes off and nap without having to
go half the vessel's length away to his luxurious quarters.

IN GT you could use the cabin usually reserved for non-jump ships, since the
50% of passageway/service space is already accounted for in the captain's
regular quarters.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of alan spik
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2002 12:27 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Naval crew accommodation

Stephen Tempest wrote:
>
> I've noticed a disturbing trend among some starship designers to give
> luxury accommodation to the ship's crew.  Even individual staterooms
> for each rating are not considered extravagant.
>
> Frankly, I think this mollycoddling and pampering will be fatal to the
> morale of His Imperial Majesty's navy.
>
> I've come to this conclusion after doing some reading on shipboard
> life during the Age of Sail (which we all know Trav is partially based
> on).  On a typical 74-gun ship of the line:
>
> Senior officers had 8' square cabins, with a deck height of 6'.  That
> makes about 10 square metres per officer:  or a single 4-ton standard
> stateroom per 5 officers.
>
> The crew of 500 were accommodated in an area of about 6000 square
> feet.  Assuming the same deck height, that makes 1000 cubic metres or
> 2 cu.m per man.  One 4-ton stateroom per 28 people.
>
> Of course, when the ship was at sea the crew would be observing
> watches, so only half the crew would be asleep at one time, and they'd
> have effectively twice the amount of space.  In Traveller terms, that
> would equate to hot-bunking.
>
> It's also worth pointing out that this accommodation wasn't only for
> short periods:  many sailers would spend 4-5 years on shipboard before
> they ever set foot on land again.
>
> So, simplifying things a little, let's say officers get to share a
> double stateroom with hot-bunking (1 per 4 officers) and crew are in
> 16-person bunkrooms, again with hot-bunking (1 per 32 crew).
>
> Introduce this as standard design policy for warships and think how
> much extra volume for weapons and powerplants will be freed up!
>
> (Of course the crews might grumble a little, but introduce a few of
> the disciplinary policies from the Age of Sail as well and they'll
> soon settle down...)
>
> Stephen
>

I think that would be a little harsh.
IMMTU
On small ships the CO gets an individual small stateroom. Sr officers
may also get one. Jr. Officers and Sr. enlisted will usually bunk two
per small stateroom. Jr enlisted are in bunks.
On larger ships the CO gets an individual stateroom, possibly a luxury
stateroom. These might also be available for Sr. officers and staff of
an admiral. Jr officers and Sr. enlisted double or triple up in
staterooms or may have individual small staterooms. Jr enlisted are in
bunks.
No hot bunking except in emergencies.
These may change because of mission requirements. I have one class of
frigates for the 100th fleet with everyone but the CO in bunks. Of
course its J3 M6 and heavily armed with a PA bay and the Whipsnade
configurable turrets.

Thanks again for the missile tactic, unknown tactician. This ship was
inadvertently built for it.
IMLE that's the way the US navy worked and if it was good enough for me
its good enough for my descendants.
YMMV.

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute.
That's relativity.
                               -Albert Einstein
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TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 18:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 17 17:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <200208172310.MZP01689@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817164632.009f2420@mindspring.com>

At 07:10 PM 8/17/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry says
> >Tell me, if I came up to you and insisted that Sweden was a
> >threat to our way of life, what would you say?
>
>The US seems to think that way about Iraq.

Don't get me started.  :)

But our last war with Iraq was 11 years ago.  When was the last time that 
Sweden swept down on anyone?

-- 

Douglas E. Berry   gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Cry "CHEEBLE!" and let slip the hamsters of war!



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 18:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 17 17:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Victory in the Frontier Wars
In-Reply-To: <14c.129326ec.2a8fa9d6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817165042.009f4520@mindspring.com>

At 09:29 AM 8/17/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Well, All I can suggest is that you buy at least one. I'm sure Doug will
>agree.

Oh, yes.  And buy Outrim Void when it comes out, and the Super-Secret Next 
Book that I'm trying to do after that one.

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 18:04:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 17 17:04:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Victory in the Frontier Wars
Message-ID: <11c.15920c1c.2a8fb3e3@aol.com>

In einer eMail vom 17.08.02 01:26:19 (MEZ) - Mitteleurop. Sommerzeit schreib=
t=20
tml-request@travellercentral.com:


> But there is.  Zhodane is technologically inferior to the Imperium.  I've=20
> looked over the maps at Traveller Central.  If they are canon or anything=20
> near it, then the Imperials heavily outweigh the Zhodani, to put it mildly=
.=20
> =20
> Yet the Zhodani are on a 500 year four war winning streak.  There's=20
> something=20
> wrong with this picture, and I think that this appeal to passivity is part=
=20
> of=20
> it.
>=20

Just for the record: *Zhodane* - the world - is *not* technologically=20
inferior to the Imperium. It is one of very few TL F worlds in the Consulate=
.
Furthermore: The Zhodani, in Book 8 IIRC are said to have partial TL 15=20
capacity. It also says that their military robots are more advanced than=20
their civilian equipment.

As for the Imperium outweighing the Zhodani: That would only matter in a=20
full-blown total war, not in the small border skirmishes the FW are. In such=
=20
an event however, the Imperium could hardly comitt its entire might against=20
the Zhodani, because it is surrounded by other interstellar communities that=
=20
range from neutral, but unpredictable (Aslan) to outright hostile (Solomani)=
.
The FW=B4s are somewhat similar to cold-war era substitute wars: A limited=20
military endeavour (as opposed to total war), with an understanding from bot=
h=20
sides that it=B4s not going above a certain level.

Regards,

Tobias


--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 18:05:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 17 17:05:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Zhodani Frontier War Philosophy
Message-ID: <129.1601cd04.2a903e6b@aol.com>

 >>But there is.  Zhodane is technologically inferior to the Imperium.  I've 
 >>looked over the maps at Traveller Central.  If they are canon or anything 
 >>near it, then the Imperials heavily outweigh the Zhodani, to put it 
mildly.  
 >>Yet the Zhodani are on a 500 year four war winning streak.  There's 
something 
 >>wrong with this picture, and I think that this appeal to passivity is part 
of 
 >>it.
 >
 >Remember that along with psionics, the Zhodani will naturally be masters of
 >pshrinkology.  Fred Ramen, in his novella _The_Hostile_Stars_ (Available in
 >Raconteur's Rest at Freelance Traveller), suggests that the Zhodani _don't_
 >'play to win', but to keep the Imperium uncertain, and guessing.  That may
 >be a reasonable thought; they don't want to end up dominated or absorbed by
 >the Imperium, so their objective is to keep the Imperium off-balance or
 >uncertain enough to prevent them from getting organized for a push against
 >the Zhodani directly, or from extending their holdings in the area and thus
 >dominating them that way.

I just happened to stumble across that story last night.  Pretty good.  But I 
find it hard to believe they could influence enough of the Imperium to make 
that much of a difference.

Call me uninfluenced.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 18:16:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 17 17:16:46 2002
Subject: [TML] 2d6 bell curve
Message-ID: <188.c9b1b93.2a904127@aol.com>

 >Are percetages below correct?
 > 
 >Roll    Chances
 >2         1 in 36    02.77%
 >3         2 in 36    08.33%
 >4         3 in 36    16.66%
 >5         4 in 36    27.77%
 >6         5 in 36    41.66%
 >7         6 in 36    58.33%
 >8         5 in 36    41.66%
 >9         4 in 36    27.77%
 >10       3 in 36    16.66%
 >11       2 in 36    08.33%
 >12       1 in 36    02.77%

No.
Roll    Chance    Percentage
  2      1/36        .027777
  3      2/36        .055555
  4      3/36        .083333
  5      4/36        .111111
  6      5/36        .138888
  7      6/36        .166666
  8      5/36        .138888
  9      4/36        .111111
 10     3/36        .083333
 11     2/36        .055555
 12     1/36        .277777

Observe that this is not a bell curve at all, but a pyramid.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 18:18:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat Aug 17 17:18:04 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020815232702.009f7280@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNOEGEEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

Sorry Doug, but information now available from China indicates that the
Chinese would have entered the war despite anything Mac did. The very fact
that there were American troops in Korea was enough to insure their
intervention.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 2:29 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets

At 08:24 PM 8/15/02 -0400, you wrote:
> >Remember MacArthur!
>
>Indeed, that is exactly who I was thinking of.  And if North Korea ever
uses
>a nuclear weapon anywhere on us or South Korea there will be a lot of
>recrimination regarding his dismissal for insubordination.

It's been 49 years.  The Korean War would have ended in 1951 had Mac
listened to his orders and stopped short of the Yalu.  But no, Dugout Doug
had to threaten Mao and provoke a massive attack.  After the Chinese came
in, there was no hope of dismantling the DPRK.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 18:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Sparky)
Date: Sat Aug 17 17:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
References: <ML-2.3.1029434651.2754.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <00af01c2464d$376c8480$67e84242@upstairs>

I'm a little behind schedule here and I'm sure most everyone is bored to
tears over this thread...so I'll ask just one more question and then
I'll drop it. I promise.

Anthony said this:
(and, in fact, the conventional understanding of electron shells is as
standing waves about a nucleus).

and then said this:
there's such a thing as a standing wave.

I'm a llittle confused about this contradiction.

Thanks to all who've patiently answered my questions!
Sparky




----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Jackson" <ajackson@iii.com>
> Well, you can create perfectly acceptable diffraction patterns with
electrons
> (and, in fact, the conventional understanding of electron shells is as
standing
> waves about a nucleus). With larger objects it rapidly becomes
difficult to
> demonstrate the wave patterns because the wavelengths are very short.
> >
> > I tend to imagine waves as being always "in-motion"
>
> No, there's such a thing as a standing wave.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 18:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat Aug 17 17:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <200208172310.MZP01689@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEGFEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

This discussion seems to assume that the Consulate is smaller than the
Imperium. I don't think that is true. I'm not sure how far it extends
Spinward, but areas explored by the Consulate go very far coreward. Since
they are supporting exploration in this direction and considering the
logistics necessary for such travel they must have worlds extending very
deeply toward the rim. It seems to me that the Consolate must cover many
more sectors than the Imperium.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 18:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug 17 17:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <20020817041418.74310.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020817041418.74310.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <m3lm75ftv9.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> > I understood it, but I don't understand it, if you follow me.
> 
> Oh come on guys.  The man has done something that only
> three other men have done in the history of the game. 

[snip]

> Surely that doesn't escape notice and at least a little awe and
> respect.

That's the thing: it's just a game.  And it's not even one which
requires much intelligence.  Swing the bat, hit the ball, catch the
ball, throw the ball--these are skills we could teach to chimps
(although not, alas, to me--cursd eyes).

I don't understand the fascination with spectator sports.  Sure, I've
read the psychological explanations thereof, but I simply cannot
relate.  It's one thing to play a sport and be proud of one's
performance; it's another entirely to derive some amount of self-worth
from the fact that one's townsman (who was almost certainly imported)
performs well.

Don't even get me started about how my taxes pay for a _business's_
premises.

All that said, it does reserve a certain amount of respect.  The man
has certainly achieved _something_ (staying in the game long enough to
get to a certain number of home runs).

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The only freedom which deserves the name is that of pursuing our own
good, in our own way, so long as we do not attempt to deprive others of
theirs, or impede their efforts to obtain it.        --John Stuart Mill

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 18:32:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug 17 17:32:01 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <16b.124568c1.2a8f29fe@aol.com>
References: <16b.124568c1.2a8f29fe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3hehtfts5.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
> 
> As everyone will recall, it is the Zhodani that are already starting
> wars that nobody wants.

It seems to me, then, that the Imperium would want a buffer zone still
more.  Soemthing to insulate it from Zhodani depradations.  Why not
pull the buffer from Zho territory rather than Imperial?

That this hasn't happened tells me that the Imperials have lost.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
If something's expensive to develop, and somebody's not going to get
paid, it won't get developed.  So you decide: Do you want software to be
written, or not?     --Bill Gates doesn't foresee the FSF or Linux, 1980

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 18:32:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug 17 17:32:58 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFOENBDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
References: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFOENBDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
Message-ID: <m3lm75t3fa.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Peter Scarrott" <peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
>
> All kidding aside I am truly baffled.  I take it on faith that
> someone (Barry Bonds I guess) has achieved an impressive sporting
> milestone, for which I congratulate him, but I still don't have the
> faintest idea what the conversation was about.

He exceeded some heretofore unexceeded number of home runs.  A home
run is when in baseball one is able to hit the ball and run around the
diamond (square-shaped baseball track) back to home plate (the spot
from which one hits the ball) without having to stop.  It's accounted
a Good Thing.

Baseball's a fairly simple game.  The `pitcher' stands in the centre
of the diamond, the `batter' at home plate, and members of the
pitcher's team at first, second and third base (the remaining points
on the diamond, numbered anti-clockwise from home plate).  Runners, of
the batter's team, may be on base.  The pitcher pitches (throws) a
ball towards the batter, who may either `foul,' `strike' or `hit.'  A
foul is essentially when the ball flies outside of the angle formed by
third-home-first.  A strike is when the batter misses the ball--three
of these and he is out; three outs and the teams switch sides.  A hit
is when the batter hits the ball.

As soon as he's hit the ball, he starts running; his goal is to get to
home plate.  However, if he is tagged with the ball (or if the ball is
plucked from the air by an opposing player), then he is out.  He is
safe, though, if he makes it to a base.  So he may run to first base,
and then decide that the opposing players are too close with the ball,
or to second, or to third, or all the way to home.  Only one player
may be on a base at one time AFAIK.

If the hitter hits the ball and doesn't stop, but runs clear 'round
the diamond and back to home plate, it's called a home run.

Each hitter to cross home scores one point for his team.  Each team
plays offence and defence once in an inning (the two halves are
referred to as the top and the bottom for first and second, resp.).

The sport is referred to as `America's past-time,' although I'm not
certain why, as football (i.e. American-rules rugby) and basketball
seem more popular.  True football (known here as soccer) is becoming
ever-more popular, but does not approach the traditional triad.
Hockey has become incredibly popular, rivalling if not exceeding
baseball.

The game also lends itself to a scoring system common among pubescent
boys, where each base indicates getting to a certain point with a
girl.  A home run is the obvious, while each of the bases is something
less, in order.  The exact assignment of act to base varies.

It's rather embarrassing that I know all that.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The fact that we have bodies is the oldest joke there is.  --C.S. Lewis

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 18:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Sat Aug 17 17:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Damned Silly Questions
In-Reply-To: <20020818001804.18620.13398.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentr
 al.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020817173300.00b39e08@mailhost.efn.org>

Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net> asked:

>I need to name a TIGRESS class dreadnought for parts 5 and 6 of Friends in
>High Places.
>
>Is there a feminine form of TOMCAT? If so, what is it?

Queen.

No, I'm not kidding.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 18:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug 17 17:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817092651.009de420@mindspring.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817092651.009de420@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m3hehtt33p.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
> 
> 4.5 wars in 500+ years.  By your logic we should *immediately* nuke
> Germany.  They've started two devastating wars in the last 100
> years.  Remember that to the average Imperial citizen before 1107,
> the Frontier Wars were either history or that joke of a war that
> happened 20 years ago.

But history moves more slowly in Traveller than it does IRL.  Just as
a rule of thumb, let's assume that the one-week travel time is
equivalent to the time it'd take to cross two average modern US
states--for the sake of argument, let's assume that's six hours.  That
means that time and travel in the Imperium are slowed down by a factor
of 1/28, s.t. those 500 years are about 18 years.

And if Mexico had invaded & freed several counties of Texas, New
Mexico & Arizona five times in the last twenty years, I'm fairly
certain that we'd be contemplating elimination of the problem.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Very often many things are said by the Holy Scriptures and in it many
names are used not in a literal sense...those who have minds
understand this.                      --St. Isaac the Syrian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 18:38:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug 17 17:38:08 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817164632.009f2420@mindspring.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817164632.009f2420@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m3d6sht31j.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
> 
> But our last war with Iraq was 11 years ago.  When was the last time
> that Sweden swept down on anyone?

When's the next time it's _likely_ to?  When's the next time the Zhos
are likely to sweep down, kill great gobs of people and push the
Imperium further out?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
1 Bryant (B) = 4577 books;        1 Habryant = 2289 books
1 Sitter (or Rhoom) = 1104 books; 1 Dinky = 161 books
1 Wallshel = 23 books;            1 Bedside = 17 books

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 18:39:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat Aug 17 17:39:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Zhodani Frontier War Philosophy
In-Reply-To: <129.1601cd04.2a903e6b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEGGEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

Could it be possible that the Zhodani are playing a waiting game? They might
assume that eventually natural evolution will cause psionics to become a
large enough percentage of the Imperium's population to force a reversal of
the Imperium's policy on psionics. (After all psionics weren't always
banned.)

The west played that game with the Soviets.

Maybe the Zhodani are waiting for that to happen. Remember in the TNE
universe the Consulate and the Regency became allies eventually.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Flykiller@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2002 8:04 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Zhodani Frontier War Philosophy

 >>But there is.  Zhodane is technologically inferior to the Imperium.  I've
 >>looked over the maps at Traveller Central.  If they are canon or anything
 >>near it, then the Imperials heavily outweigh the Zhodani, to put it
mildly.
 >>Yet the Zhodani are on a 500 year four war winning streak.  There's
something
 >>wrong with this picture, and I think that this appeal to passivity is
part
of
 >>it.
 >
 >Remember that along with psionics, the Zhodani will naturally be masters
of
 >pshrinkology.  Fred Ramen, in his novella _The_Hostile_Stars_ (Available
in
 >Raconteur's Rest at Freelance Traveller), suggests that the Zhodani
_don't_
 >'play to win', but to keep the Imperium uncertain, and guessing.  That may
 >be a reasonable thought; they don't want to end up dominated or absorbed
by
 >the Imperium, so their objective is to keep the Imperium off-balance or
 >uncertain enough to prevent them from getting organized for a push against
 >the Zhodani directly, or from extending their holdings in the area and
thus
 >dominating them that way.

I just happened to stumble across that story last night.  Pretty good.  But
I
find it hard to believe they could influence enough of the Imperium to make
that much of a difference.

Call me uninfluenced.
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 18:40:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Sat Aug 17 17:40:14 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEGFEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFGENIDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

To expand on someone else's earlier comment (sorry hit 'delete' too fast),
the Consulate's main advantage is not having a large Empire on any of it's
other borders (ISTR).  Of all the large interstellar governments we know
about the Imperium is the only one with more than one major neighbour.  This
would allow it to concentrate a sizeable proportion of its armed forces
against any Imperial attack; the Imperium can't reply in kind due to the
necessity of keeping large forces against the Aslan, Solomani and too a
lesser extent, against the Hivers, K'Kree and Vargr.  The Zhodani also
benefit by having much easier lines of communication to their deep strategic
reserves than the Imperium.


> -----Original Message-----
> On Behalf Of Terry Carlino
> Sent: 18 August 2002 01:22
>
> This discussion seems to assume that the Consulate is smaller than the
> Imperium. I don't think that is true. I'm not sure how far it extends
> Spinward, but areas explored by the Consulate go very far coreward. Since
> they are supporting exploration in this direction and considering the
> logistics necessary for such travel they must have worlds extending very
> deeply toward the rim. It seems to me that the Consolate must cover many
> more sectors than the Imperium.

Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.
I need to remember details like that, until we get to know each other
better.  Some men get so nervous if a lady shows up at the restaurant with a
box of explosives. - Florence, www.purrsia.com/Freefall , 7th Dec 2001


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 18:42:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 17 17:42:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <10e.15e11710.2a904728@aol.com>

 >You seem to be quite single-minded on the subject.

As do you, keeping the Imperium passive and defensive.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 18:43:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sat Aug 17 17:43:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Zhodani tech development (Was: Victory in the Frontier Wars)
In-Reply-To: <20020816065538.21971.85556.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208180220230.16440-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
>>Well, the Zhodani may not have been technologically inferior for all that
>>long. They were less affected by the long night, and might have actually
>>been on average higher-tech in the early wars.
>
>(Did the Zhodani experience a Long Night?)

No. At some point around -1000 they just decided to put a moratotium on
further expansion while they consolidated their present holdings. Since
then they haven't expanded much. Just why it would take them more than
2000 years to consolidate is not explained anywhere.

They had at least TL 12 at some point during the Long Night (Gvurrdon the
eponymous Vargr hero steals a jump-3 ship from them). There's no evidence
that they were higher than that, and personally I doubt that they've been
ahead of the Imperium much. OTOH I doubt that they've been far behind them
either.


Hans



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 18:45:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 17 17:45:46 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEGFEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <200208172310.MZP01689@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817174119.009e28e0@mindspring.com>

At 08:22 PM 8/17/02 -0400, you wrote:
>This discussion seems to assume that the Consulate is smaller than the
>Imperium. I don't think that is true. I'm not sure how far it extends
>Spinward, but areas explored by the Consulate go very far coreward. Since
>they are supporting exploration in this direction and considering the
>logistics necessary for such travel they must have worlds extending very
>deeply toward the rim. It seems to me that the Consolate must cover many
>more sectors than the Imperium.

According the canon, the Consulate is smaller than the Imperium, covering 
about ten sectors all told.


--

Duugirashir Irebamenagiin  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
Inquisitor Maximus, Reformed Canon Church of Sylea



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 18:47:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sat Aug 17 17:47:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Damned Silly Questions
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020817173300.00b39e08@mailhost.efn.org>
References: <20020818001804.18620.13398.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentr al.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020817194712.007994d0@minn.net>

At 05:33 PM 8/17/2002 -0700, Kelly St.Clair wrote:
>Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net> asked:
>
>>I need to name a TIGRESS class dreadnought for parts 5 and 6 of Friends in
>>High Places.
>>
>>Is there a feminine form of TOMCAT? If so, what is it?
>
>Queen.
>
>No, I'm not kidding.

Hmmm...that's not going to work.

There's an in-joke involved here.


Les


==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 18:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug 17 17:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Zhodani Frontier War Philosophy
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEGGEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEGGEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <m38z35t2ks.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Terry Carlino" <carlino@cox.net> writes:
>
> Could it be possible that the Zhodani are playing a waiting game?
> They might assume that eventually natural evolution will cause
> psionics to become a large enough percentage of the Imperium's
> population to force a reversal of the Imperium's policy on psionics
> (after all psionics weren't always banned).

That raises the whole issue of the Imperium's outlook on psionics.
I'm not certain that it makes a whole lot of sense, to tell the truth,
esp. when there's a violent neighbour who uses them.  We didn't stop
make nukes just because they were dangerous (although there were
plenty of halfwits who argued for it); why would the Imperium not
utilise psionically-apt individuals?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The betterment of fools, Goethe tells us, is the appropriate business of
other fools.  The Underground Grammarian does not seek to educate
anyone.  We intend rather to ridicule, humiliate, and infuriate those
who abuse our language not so that they will do better but so that they
will stop using language entirely or at least go away.
                         --The Underground Grammarian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 18:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sat Aug 17 17:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Damned Silly Questions
In-Reply-To: <3D5D8AAD.4507.237C6E@localhost>
References: <a7.251d2f62.2a8db4d6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020817091336.00a8d100@minn.net>

I need to name a TIGRESS class dreadnought for parts 5 and 6 of Friends in
High Places.

Is there a feminine form of tomcat? If so, what is it?

Thanks in advance.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 18:52:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sat Aug 17 17:52:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Damned Silly Questions
In-Reply-To: <20020818001804.18620.13398.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020818001804.18620.13398.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <vkrtluons4f8hdvh02m2drekom5a471koj@4ax.com>

On Sat, 17 Aug 2002 17:18:04 -0700, Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net> wrote:

>I sorry about having to send this message again. For some reason the first
>transmission had not appeared in my mail box as of this time.

>I need to name a TIGRESS class dreadnought for parts 5 and 6 of Friends in
>High Places.

>Is there a feminine form of TOMCAT? If so, what is it?

Every reference I've seen calls them 'queens'.  Every reference anyone I've
asked has seen ditto.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 19:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 17 18:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Human Nature or 'WWRD' or 'WWAD'
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817090545.009eb100@mindspring.com>
References: <14prlukovr8b9uqj0u65dbd1sajo6rno6g@4ax.com>
 <20020816232302.6238.63480.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <14prlukovr8b9uqj0u65dbd1sajo6rno6g@4ax.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020817090545.009eb100@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <1828.208.28.190.37.1029632377.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

My question is:

Why would the Imperials have to wait?

First off, I'd construct a LOT of intelligence scout ships that wait on
the outskirts of Zhondani systems within jump distance of Imperial
borders.  These scouts would then act as trip wires as they watch for
massed fleet build ups.  If a system has only 24 system defense boats (all
likely trying to hunt down the scouts by the way) in it, and suddenly has
100 warships in it and needs to refuel for its push into Imperial
territory - wouldn't that be a sign for the Imperials to start moving over
to war alert status?





From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 19:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 17 18:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Tech Levelling
In-Reply-To: <lfltluk0rocq2fhglkaq24jvjemv56mupr@4ax.com>
References: <lfltluk0rocq2fhglkaq24jvjemv56mupr@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <1837.208.28.190.37.1029632962.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

A few comments to Make Jeff,
  For those smaller "electronic" goods, where 500 cubic feet of volume
  holds a lot of "goods", the $1,000 per ton is split amongst them all,
  not just one thing.
  Secondly - you are ignoring the concept that many of these worlds may
  have a limited infrastructure.  It is better to build *one*
  manufacturing plant making one widget, than to make many smaller
  factories making *all* of the goods you need.  In short, you are
  ignoring the tooling up costs, the training costs, and the other various
  infrastructure costs.  For example:

Computer:
CPU
Motherboard
Video Card
Drives
Screws
internal frame mounts
fans
wiring
external frame
external case for frame

Each of those items in turn, needs some form of "internal" support.  The
manufacture of say, coolant for the screw manufacture, lubricants for the
machines that work on the assembly of the computer and so on.

If you have a world that concentrates only on putting computers together,
while another world concentrates on making screws - each world would have
some benefit for trading with each other.

I'm not saying that fully populated worlds with billions of population
will go this route, but other worlds would.  Hell, even fully populated
worlds might trade with other Worlds because the cost of labor is
significantly lower.

  In all, I can't buy the idea that worlds of equal TL will contend with
  shipping costs that render trade that low of a possibility.  Granted,
  long distance shipping will be an issue, but anything reasonably short
  distance isn't going to be an issue.  Also, GURPS FAR TRADER doesn't
  assume that income for shipping 1 ton of goods costs the shipper $1,000.
   If I recall correctly, it was dropped to something on the order of
  about $700 give or take.

               Hal



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 19:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sat Aug 17 18:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Damned Silly Questions
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020817113835.007bb100@minn.net>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHMELBINAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

I sorry about having to send this message again. For some reason the first
transmission had not appeared in my mail box as of this time.

I need to name a TIGRESS class dreadnought for parts 5 and 6 of Friends in
High Places.

Is there a feminine form of tomcat? If so, what is it?

Thanks in advance.


Les
>>>>>>>>>

You can call a cat anything you want, they still only pay 
attention when they want to.

jml
Seriously I have heard the term Queen 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 19:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sat Aug 17 18:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <ML-2.3.1029515927.4165.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3D5DCB63.2060408@usisp.com>

>
>
>
>In the real world, there's nothing equivalent to a traveller low-tech world;
>no-one (other than hobbyists) builds TL 4 ships, for example.  What you have
>are poor countries and rich countries.
>

oops.. I misinterpretted that last note.

    Lotsa countries build tech 4 ships. Go look in Hong Kong harbour to 
find some.
It is just that most large ships are built in countries with higher 
technology. The
companies that build those ships don't care where the money comes from. 
Populations
that can afford them, import them. After all,......money is low tech.

>
   






From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 19:18:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sat Aug 17 18:18:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <ML-2.3.1029515927.4165.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3D5DC954.9040808@usisp.com>

>
>
>>Tech levels should follow population, not starport availability. You 
>>have to have enough people to build technology to have it.
>>
>Not in a high trade Imperium.  You just have to be able to afford to import it,
>which probably means you have _some_ industries producing high value goods.
>
>In the real world, there's nothing equivalent to a traveller low-tech world;
>no-one (other than hobbyists) builds TL 4 ships, for example.  What you have
>are poor countries and rich countries.
>

    High value goods are not neccesarily high tech goods. Gold, 
lanthanum, diamonds, etc. are
still high value even if they are dug out with shovels. And shovels are 
low tech. An outside
corporation can 'lease' land for strip mining or other productive 
activity which gives the
local government cash to spend. Groats are low tech, but bring in cash 
for imports. Perhaps
the world is being bankrolled by another world for future considerations.
    While it is true that the afore mentioned corporation may bring in 
high tech equipment,
the rest of the world will still be unable to manufacture high-tech 
goods. The only high tech
on the world would be imports. If that makes a world high-tech and 
allows any high-tech
gear become easily available, then ALL worlds would be at Imperial 
levels. Right?
    It is my opinion that tech level should be a measure of what the 
world is capable of
manufacturing on its own without outside influence. Do not think a tech 
2 world is full
of guys running around on horses and swinging swords while worshipping 
traders
in chariots of the gods...they just haven't quite got around to building 
the infrastructure
needed to produce lasers or other goods yet. They probably will have 
that neato stuff......
just imported. This would be like Jerry Pournelle's Co-Dominium worlds. 
( Think
'King David's Spaceship' or Falkenberg's Legions)
    If one looks at tech levels in this way, then RW examples abound on 
earth. Brunei
is filthy rich yet cannot build its own stuff ( low-tech factories ), 
while some very
high tech countries ( America and Japan and Russia  et.al. ) are 
experiencing some
financial woes.

And what's wrong with tech4 ships......all worlds need some 'tall ships' 
on their seas.!





From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 19:19:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sat Aug 17 18:19:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockhead
Message-ID: <3D5EED34.1080100@usisp.com>

     It is my belief that the uwp could be improved upon. While it was
wonderful back in the late 70's , it seems lacking today. I am 
submitting my 'fixes' for peer review in the hopes that it can be 
improved further and that someone might find a use for them.
      I have tried to base my ideas on already established rules, but
used in different ways.Hopefully, this will allow these ideas to be 
integrated easily with printed materials. However,as I am basing these 
mods on assumptions different from the OTH, the worlds generated
may not be 100% compatible. There will be different political/economic
distributions with these mods.
     In the end, I did this in an attempt to mold the Traveller universe
to my expectations. I have always envisioned the universe to be like 
that described in 'Falkenberg's Legions', 'The Mote in God's Eye', and 
the adventures of Earl Demarest of Terra.

     My assumptions are:       1. Humans will settle on worlds that can
                                  support humans without needing filters 

                                  or sealed enviroments.
                               2. tech level represents level available
                                  on the world without resorting to
                                  outside trade ( manufacturing tech
                                  level) and anything higher will
                                  represent imports.
                               3. starport type is highest maintainable
                                  at manufacturing tech level ( imports
                                  not used to prop up facilities )

     All values tied to population, such as tech, starport, culture, etc.
can of course be modified
normally with 'Pocket Empires' rules. All trade and political actions
follow those rules. This
is meant to provide a consistantly changing background for rpg
adventures. Ideally, several
worlds would be administered to form a web of treaties and trade for
pc's to play in.

     All worlds will be placed in habitable zone.

     size=2d6                  a larger world in hab. zone should be more
                               earth-like.
     atm=2d6-7+size            atm pressure follows gravity ( size
                               indirectly )
     hyd%=2d6-7+atm            atm pressure prevents liquids from boiling
                               off into space
     pop=2d6+dm's              hostile worlds will have smaller
                               populations while habitable worlds will
                               have larger populations than before.

     pop      dm= -int(abs((atm-6)/1.5))   or   -1 for taint,
                                                -1 per step away from std
              dm= -int(abs((hyd-6)/2.5))

    gov=2d6-7+pop              Nothing is changed for these two steps. 

    law=2d6-7+gov

     Now, the social profile needs to be determined. This is  as
described in either 'World Builder's
Handbook' or 'Pocket Empires'. The only difference between the two is
that 'Pocket Empires' adds
some dm's based on culture. Once this is done, tech level can be
determined.

     tech= 1d6+dm's+(pop-6)      The population modifier represents the
                                 people neccesary to maintain a certain
                                 level of technology.

  +2		 +1	          0                  -1

radical          progressive      conservative        reactionary
enterprising     advancing        indifferent         stagnant
expansionist     competetive      unaggressive        passive
fragmented       discordant       harmonious          monolithic
militant         neutral          peacable            concilliatory

     +1 if subsector is mature
     -1 if subsector is frontier

     These dm's are based on the assumption that military needs drive
research and technology. This seems to be how the real world acts as 
most advances have been during war; this includes cold war.
The other driver of technology is the desire for bigger profits. Lower
dm's represent idyllic,pastoral worlds with Luddites and hippie peace 
communes on them.
     Just remember, tech level is local manufacturing ability....not
local stupidity. These worlds may have many high tech conveniences 
imported from off world. To determine high tech available
from imports, use highest tech level of world with class a or b starport
within 4 jumps. Farther than that would be too expensive for some goods 
due to transport costs. Pc speculation is most welcome though.

     The last step is starports.

tech-1d6=            'A'= 7 or more                    'E'= -1 or less
                      'B'= 5 or more                    'X'= -4 or less
                      'C'= 3 or more
                      'D'= 2 or more

     I feel that starports should be to be maintained by local
manufacturing. Specialty parts can of course, be ordered with long 
shipping delays and outrageous prices.
     This is my version of the uwp. I welcome constructive criticism in
order to improve it.Otherwise, the best I can hope for is that someone 
will find parts of it useful.

With respect,
Richard Honeycutt




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 19:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Sat Aug 17 18:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <20020818001804.18620.13398.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentr
 al.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020818025141.00a07860@mail.pi.se>

>At 07:10 PM 8/17/02 -0400, you wrote:
> >Douglas Berry says
> > >Tell me, if I came up to you and insisted that Sweden was a
> > >threat to our way of life, what would you say?
> >
> >The US seems to think that way about Iraq.
>
>Don't get me started.  :)
>
>But our last war with Iraq was 11 years ago.  When was the last time that
>Sweden swept down on anyone?

After commanding the Northern Army at the Battle of Leipzig (1813) against 
Napoleon, heir-to-the-Swedish-throne Bernadotte's forces defeated the 
Danes. The peace treaty was signed in Kiel, January 1814. If you consider 
that campaign the last "real" war or if the short campaign against the 
Norwegian non-compliance with the same treaty later the same year is the 
last war is a matter of about ten months time, 188 years ago.

However, it can well be argued that before 1814, Sweden with great 
regularity and some measure of success undertook warmongering efforts of 
the "sweep down on anyone"-type.

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 19:37:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 17 18:37:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFCENCDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
References: <3d5e36c8.6019642@post.demon.co.uk>
 <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFCENCDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
Message-ID: <1885.208.28.190.37.1029634627.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

Hello Folks,
  For what it is worth?  Nothing says you have to take a 4 ton stateroom
  and assume that X space is bunking, Y space is corridors, and Z space is
  bathroom facilities.  If you want, in GURPS TRAVELLER, there is a
  program out there that lets you build ships based on modules.  If you
  use GURPS VEHICLES, you can determine what exactly goes into the
  modules.

For instance: if you know that you want a 4' wide by 6'6" tall corridor
with an additional 4'x2' conduit for power cables and such...

5 x (6.5 + 2) = 42.5 square feet.  each 11 feet of corridor is 467 cubic
feet of volume.  Want to make a "corridor" module that is only 4' wide
instead?  Then each module is roughly 14 feet in length.

In short?  Build restroom modules such that they take up 1/2 ton of space.
 Build kitchens that take up their own space.  Build "meeting rooms" that
use benches and tables instead of chairs.  You can be VERY detailed in
what goes into a ship's insides.  More importantly?  Any module that can
be designed for GURPS can generally be used in CT.  Of course, trying to
figure out how many energy points a module uses in CT can be problematical
;)






From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 19:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Edward Swatschek)
Date: Sat Aug 17 18:51:03 2002
Subject: Fwd: Re: [TML] FFW Question
Message-ID: <20020818015057.OQVS25741.priv-edtnes28.telusplanet.net@there>

On Friday 16 August 2002 22:45, Scott Ayres wrote:
> --- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> > At 05:18 PM 8/16/02 -0700,  Scott Ayres <ayrcontml@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >Did the Zho's ever actually attack Regina (in
> > >canon)?
> >
> > Depends on your canon.  CT canon is unclear.  In
> > Ground Forces it is stated clearly that there is a
> > landing.
>
> Between the old JTAS cover (assuming it's Regina) &
> the GF description, that's good enough for me.  Thanks.

The initial TNS reports indicate Regina was attacked:
>>> Regina/Regina (0310-A788899-A) Date: 187-1107

The Duke of Regina, speaking through his seneschal, announced in an
emergency press conference that as of 12:01 A.M. this date a formal state
of war has existed between the Imperium and the Zhodani Consulate. The
seneschal explained that the declaration of war was handed to him by
Ambassador Shterbifriashav late last night. The seneschal declined to
answer questions, stating that no further information was available at that
time.

>>> Rhylanor/Rhylanor (0306-A434934-F) Date: 201-1107

Word has today been received by fleet courier of the invasion of Regina,
the capital of the Spinward Marches. Naval spokesmen of the 212th Fleet
declined to comment publicly, but in private one naval officer expressed
the opinion that prolonged resistance on the world was unlikely in the
event of a serious Zhodani assault.

Coming only days after receipt of the news of the outbreak of the war, news
of Regina's invasion is a heavy blow to hopes of an early victory over the
Zhodani. The fall of Regina could sever the main communications artery to
the Jewell subsector, and seriously hinder communication with fleet
elements presumed to be fighting there.

-- 
Edward Swatschek - edjs@bitslayer.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 20:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sat Aug 17 19:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Names of Tigresses
In-Reply-To: <20020818011804.24991.62249.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208180340140.16440-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Leslie Bates writes:

>I need to name a TIGRESS class dreadnought for parts 5 and 6 of Friends in
>High Places.

I had a look through the Encyclopedia Brittanica and found some names for
Tigress Class Dreadna/oughts. Not nearly enough (if there are 17-18 8-ship
Tigress BatRons, then there are about 140 Tigresses), but you may find
them useful. IMO the more euphonious names would have been used first.

Tigress
Lioness          (IIRC _BtC_ mentions that _Lioness_ was destroyed during
                  the 5FW and replaced by a Lioness II)
Leopardess
Cougaress
Jaguaress
Pantheress       (_Pantheress_ was part of the squadron that was assigned
                  to the 212th Fleet at Rhylanor prior to the 5FW. After
                  the war the 212th was rotated to Jewell. Did the
                  Tigresses go with them or were they transferred to
                  another fleet?)
Pardess
Servaless
Ocelotess
Caradaless
Margayess
Catamountess
Clouded Tigress
Mountain Lioness
Snow Leopardess
Clouded Leopardess
Deer Tigress
Lynxess
Pumaess
Ouncess
Chetahess
Jaguarundess
Ligeress          (A liger is the (infertile) offspring of a male lion and
Tigoness          a female tiger and a tigon the (also infertile) offspring
                  of a male tiger and a female lion.)
Smilodontess
Sabretooth Tigress
Dirktooth Tigress

After that you propably have to fall back on 'alien carnivore/pouncers
with felinoid shapes', like Tuft Tigress etc. (Aslaness will be vetoed
by the Emperor himself!!)

(Since I first compiled the list I've stumbled across one or two more
names, but unfortunately I've failed to update the list, so I can't
remember what they were. IIRC there is an Egyptian mythological beast
called a <something> pard.)

There's a dozen wild cats that all are named 'something cat'.

Bobcat
Caffre cat
Fishing cat
Flat-headed cat
Geoffroy's cat
Golden cat
Marbeled cat
Pallas's cat
Pampas cat
Wildcat
Leopard cat

Unfortunately the only words I can find for 'female cat' is 'she-cat'
and 'tabby', and neither 'Xxxxx she-cat' nor 'Xxxxx tabby' really
appeals to me as names (I mean, how does _Wild Tabby_ or _Bob Shecat_ do
for you? See what I mean?). YMMV.

(Incidentally, I would have thought that the female of 'tomcat' would be
'tabby' and I would further think that no Naval <whoever decides on names
for ships> would ever use a name for a _domestic_ cat for a Tigress. But
that's just my opinion.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 20:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sat Aug 17 19:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Santanocheev's fate
In-Reply-To: <20020817231435.11006.44766.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208180407010.16440-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Douglas Berry writes:
>You snipped the bit about spending the rest of your life on an Exile
>World.  You notice we haven't heard anything from Admiral Lord Santocheev
>since Norris sacked him...

There were a couple of TNS newsbriefs about him after the war. He made
noises about wanting a proper court-martial, then decided to resign with
no forther fuss after all.

Personally I think he is one of Delphine's vassals and is back running his
fief nowadays. Count of Fornice or something like that.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 20:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug 17 19:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFGENIDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
References: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFGENIDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
Message-ID: <m3y9b4syby.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Peter Scarrott" <peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
>
> To expand on someone else's earlier comment (sorry hit 'delete' too
> fast), the Consulate's main advantage is not having a large Empire
> on any of it's other borders (ISTR).  Of all the large interstellar
> governments we know about the Imperium is the only one with more
> than one major neighbour.

I've ever assumed that it's just that we view the Far Future from the
3I's viewpoint, and that other empires live on the edges of the
Imperium's neighbours.

> This would allow it to concentrate a sizeable proportion of its
> armed forces against any Imperial attack; the Imperium can't reply
> in kind due to the necessity of keeping large forces against the
> Aslan, Solomani and too a lesser extent, against the Hivers, K'Kree
> and Vargr.

That's one of the reasons I take the view I do.  It's a rather unfair
and unrealistic view that the Imperium is the only polity which must
deal with others.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The purpose of the First Amendment's free-speech guarantee was pretty
clearly to protect political discourse.  But liberals reject the notion
that free speech is therefore limited to political topics, even broadly
defined.  True, that purpose is not inscribed in the amendment itself.
But why leap to the conclusion that a broadly worded constitutional
freedom (`the right of the people to keep and bear arms') is narrowly
limited by its stated purpose, unless you're trying to explain it away?
My New Republic colleague Mickey Kaus says that if liberals interpreted
the Second Amendment the way they interpret the rest of the Bill of
Rights, there would be law professors arguing that gun ownership is
mandatory.       --Michael Kinsley Washington Post, January 8, 1990

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 20:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat Aug 17 19:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAKEDJDLAA.redroach@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <20020818023219.15DA02793A@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/17/02 at 12:22 PM,  "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@pobox.com> said:

>the way this fellow's accomplishment is being
>expressed is in such game-related terms that only a devotee of the
>game can tell what he's done that is noteworthy.


>I am a devotee of said game, but I still don't understand the furor.
>Its just Barry Bonds. Loud mouth and possibly baseball player. Its
>not like he found a cure for Polio or something.

LOL!

Barry Bonds has never been a "lovable" player, but he has accomplished
some remarkable feats the last few years, and hitting 600 homeruns in
a career is an important milestone. I don't begrudge him his feat, or
Giants fans their celebration.

Eris,
    baseball fan!
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 20:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat Aug 17 19:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <m3lm75ftv9.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020818024453.999A92793A@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/17/02 at 08:22 AM,  ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
said:

>That's the thing: it's just a game.  And it's not even one which
>requires much intelligence.  Swing the bat, hit the ball, catch the
>ball, throw the ball--these are skills we could teach to chimps
>(although not, alas, to me--cursd eyes).

LOL! Robert, there's a lot more to it that that. 

Ballet, why would anyone want to watch *that*, it's just jumping
around and twirling on a stage -- skills we could teach to
chimps...yeah sure! <g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 21:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 17 20:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Vilani Chess
Message-ID: <118.15eaa552.2a906bbd@aol.com>

>Well, Nine Man Morris is pretty darned old. And it's both simple and a
>bear to get *good* at. 

5,000 years in the future, the Vilani have probably conflated it into "Nine 
Man Morris Dancing" . . . 

Or perhaps not   :  )


I don't want to spend a huge amount of time on this kind of thing, but people 
have been asking what games have survived, and I wanted to deal with a couple 
in GT: Nobles.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 21:24:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat Aug 17 20:24:28 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFGENIDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020818032341.35CE02793A@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/18/02 at 01:39 AM,  "Peter Scarrott"
<peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk> said:

>To expand on someone else's earlier comment (sorry hit 'delete' too
>fast), the Consulate's main advantage is not having a large Empire on
>any of it's other borders (ISTR).  Of all the large interstellar
>governments we know about the Imperium is the only one with more than
>one major neighbour.  

Not *quite* true. The Solomani Confederation is bordered by both the
Imperium and the Aslan Hierate. The Aslan are honor bound to leave the
Imperium alone by treaty, but they aren't honor bound to leave the
Confederation alone. I rather suspect the Solomani and Aslan have been
warring with each other for a long time...we just haven't heard much
about it.  

Oh, and I've never been clear on how it is that the Aslan don't butt
up against the Zhodani? Maybe it's out beyond charted space, and maybe
we don't have any published accounts of the fighting going on out
there, but that doesn't mean it's not happening.

Speaking of the Zhodani, we don't know what they may have run into
during their coreward explorations. However, they seem to have run
into something, and that something is spreading unrest throughout
their whole empire! We have a hint of it with the words "Empress
Wave", but we don't know what it is.

The Vargr are already fractured in to pocket empires and independent
systems. They are *all* surrounded by hostile forces. <g>

The K'kree have the Hivers and the Imperium. Personally, I'm in favor
of Vargr movement coreward of the Imperium toward K'kree space. Those
two species should mix "interestingly", to say the least. But that's
just something I'd toss into the mix IMTU.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 21:33:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat Aug 17 20:33:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <3D5E795F.ADC2DCBF@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020818033255.89A672793A@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/17/02 at 12:27 PM,  alan spik <babyduck@mindspring.com> said:

>No hot bunking except in emergencies.

I'd like to point out that if you have gravity control, you don't have
to have "bunks", containment webbing will do. Stack 'em up like
cordwood! <g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 21:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Aug 17 20:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Vilani Chess
In-Reply-To: <118.15eaa552.2a906bbd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020817233424.0260dea8@192.168.0.1>

At 11:17 PM 8/17/2002 -0400, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
>I don't want to spend a huge amount of time on this kind of thing, but people
>have been asking what games have survived, and I wanted to deal with a couple
>in GT: Nobles.

Poker.  Definitely Poker.

Various dice games.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"One who, on being told that this is a game about politics
and intrigue in 17th century Italy, asks to play a ninja."
-- Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 21:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sat Aug 17 20:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Vilani Chess
In-Reply-To: <118.15eaa552.2a906bbd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOELGINAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>


>Well, Nine Man Morris is pretty darned old. And it's both simple and a
>bear to get *good* at.

5,000 years in the future, the Vilani have probably conflated it into "Nine
Man Morris Dancing" . . .

Or perhaps not   :  )


I don't want to spend a huge amount of time on this kind of thing, but
people
have been asking what games have survived, and I wanted to deal with a
couple
in GT: Nobles.

LKW
_______________________________________________

I was vaguely curious what you thought of Thashirudri, the game I posted?

jml
who learned to lose at chess from my father,
a ranked chess player in his day


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 21:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sat Aug 17 20:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1029535009.444.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1029535009.444.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <p04330100b984ca72fc0e@[198.123.22.171]>

At 2:56 PM -0700 8/16/02, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>David P. Summers writes:
>>  While this is reasonably, there seems to be little or no coordination
>>  amongst the Imperiums neighbors (except maybe for the outworld
>>  confederation).  If the Solomani, Aslan, and Vargr were all to attack
>>  once....
>
>It would be a temporary mess on all the borders.  Since the portions of the
>Imperium don't generally support one another during wars anyway, there's no
reason to assume the result would be any more serious than any other wars.
>This is, also, the reason it really doesn't matter that the Imperium outweighs
>the Zhodani.  The wars have never been Imperium vs Zhodani, they've been Deneb
>vs some fraction of the Zhodani.


Well, the in the Frontier wars you see the spinward marches fighting 
on their own.  However, I'm not sure that isn't a matter of those 
being short wars.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 21:56:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sat Aug 17 20:56:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
In-Reply-To: <200208162213.g7GMDYE13854@catenary.cesa.opbu.xerox.com>
References: <200208162213.g7GMDYE13854@catenary.cesa.opbu.xerox.com>
Message-ID: <p04330101b984cb10215c@[143.232.119.186]>

At 3:13 PM -0700 8/16/02, Douglas R Glatz wrote:
>While there is nothing specific about agreements between the neighbors (and
>considering how little is actually released about the high level politics, I
>wouldn't expect to find anything), there is some canonical evidence that shows
>that there is a military standoff on at least three of the Imperium's borders.
>
>Referring to the MT/TNE timeline, when the rebellion kicks off, the Solomani,
>the Vargr and the Aslan all cross Imperial borders and take territory.  While
>there is no coordination in these actions, it is obvious that there *was* the
>military forces, and contingency plans, in place to take these actions in
>reaction to a change in the status quo.

This is "sort" of like it.  Except the Zhos never get into it and the 
Vargr and Aslan just start going unorganized raiding (though that has 
an effect)
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 21:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Sat Aug 17 20:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (Long)
Message-ID: <000001c2466b$ab4d2580$38ccd63f@customer>

> Most Zhodani are not psi.  And most psi's will not be willing to play any
> sort of guerrilla role -- the psi's left behind will not number in the
> hundreds of thousands, let alone millions, especially when there might be
> quite a few proles who are willing to point out psi-capable Zhodani in
their
> midst.  A single generation of red zoning, psionic suppression, and
> counter-psi should be sufficient to reduce the psi population to levels
> typical of Imperial planets (The murderous rage you cite is localized --
some
> Imperial planets do have Psi Institutes, after all.)  <snip>

I beg the indulgence of the TML.  The above statement includes some
misiterpretations that need to be addressed

Resources used:
The Traveller Book, Marc Miller c GDW 1982 (CTB)
CT Alien Module 4, J. Anndrew Keith, Marc Miller, and John Harshman c GDW
1985 (CTAR4)
GT Behind the Claw, Martin Dougherty and Niel Frier c Steve Jackson Games
Inc (GT:BTC)

The number of Zhodani psi's in the Spinward Marches isn't given any where I
could find, so I've had to extapolate based the information available.  In
the character generation section in CTAR 4 it says only those with a psi
strength of 9+ are trained.  This works out to a 27.78% chance of a Zhodani
character having psi strenth of 9+.  Using GT:BTC I've come with with a
approximate Zhodani population of 8,300,000,000 in the SM.  Using the 27.78%
as the precentage of psi's in that number, I get 2,305,740,000 psi's in the
SM.  Even 5% of the pop number gives 41,500,000.  Keep in mind the Zho's
have been at this for a long time and they test everyone, so I personally
think the higher number is closer to the truth.  Even if 5% stay behind
that's still 1,15,287,000 psi's to deal with.  Plus the millions of
volunteers who would flock to the SM to throw out the hated Imperials.

As to the Zhodani character I'll reproduce the Zhodani description in
GT:BTC, which I think is pretty right on:
    "The Zhodani are humans, differing primarily in cultural ways from
Imperial citizens (the physical differences between Zhodani and other humans
are minor).  The single greatest difference between Imperial and Zhodani
culture is the Zhodani use of psionics.  This is not merely a gimmick or a
talent employed by a few individuals, but a major factor in the structure of
Zhodani society.  The Zhodani view many traits common in the Imperium -
unhappiness with ones lot in life, dishonesty and so forth as no different
to physical maladies such as dysentery andinfluenza.  The Tavrchedl'
(Thought Police) identify the "sufferer's" who then receive treatment to
cure their "illness."  Many Imperials are horrified at this concept - to
them it is a fundamental right to be unhappy with (and complain about) one's
lot in life.  It is a vital tool in human interaction to lie or cheat or
manipulate - so the Imperials say.  In the Consulate, these are no different
than cancers or infectious diseases, and thay are treated as such.
    The Zhodani, meanwhile, view the Imperials as isolated, lonely
individuals who are sick and yet refuse to be cured.  Most Zhodani cannot
conceive of what it must be like to live under such horrible circumtances -
and would not want to try.
    The Consulate is a stable body, having long ago reached the maximum size
that its rulers beleived could be administered, and voluntarily ceased
expansion.  That is not to say the Consulate is untroubled.  There are Vargr
and other races occupying planets within Consulate space, and borders with
several states that are not always peaceful or friendly.  The five Frontier
Wars stand as examples of this continual friction.
    Generally, Zhodani policy is to mantain the staus quo reguarding
bordering states.  If trouble threatens, then the Consulate often will
attack, usually without waiting for a "trigger incident."  The intent is to
foster a defensive mentality in bordering states that keeps them from
lauching damaging first strikes into Zhodani space.  The unfortunate
spin-off is a reputation for aggression, but analysis will show that Zhodani
"aggression" has never been aimed at conquest, and has always been in
response to a perceived threat that might not yet have become obvious.
    The Zhodani have lauched several major expeditions in the direction of
the Galactic Core.  What they have found there remains a mystery outside the
Consulate.

From the CTB:
    The Psionic Institute: In the face of popular and official disaproval,
the secrets of psionic science are held by a dedicated group of talented
individtuals who operate the Psionic Institute...Because of the prejudices
which exist, the Institute maintains a low profile, and it is quite
difficult  to locate its facilities.
     Psionics In Human Society
     The climate of public opinion about psionics is extremely negative.
Individuals will find it unhealthy to admit possession of, or sympathy for,
psionic powers.  Persons with psionic ability will not admit their powers
unless reassured that they are in no danger...
     Psionic individuals detected by the public or the authorities are
subject to a variety of responses based on a two dice throw: 12+ for
lobotomy, 10+ for lynching, 8+ for tarring and feathering, 6+ for
imprisonment, and 4+ for deportation.
     ....But society as a whole will not allow individuals to openly
advertise that they have psionic, nor will it allow individuals to use them
publicly....

John Scarlett
-------------------------------------
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -- George
Santayana



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 22:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Sat Aug 17 21:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1029540496.4803.ajackson@ping>
References: <ML-2.3.1029540496.4803.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <p04330102b984cb573203@[143.232.119.186]>

At 4:28 PM -0700 8/16/02, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Douglas R Glatz writes:
>
>>  I was under the impression that the Imperium *does* shift forces in
>>  response  to attacks - and that it specifically *didn't* happen in the FFW
>>  because it  was over before the news had reached Capital and the reaction
>>  flowed back.
>
>Maybe, but there's not much canon evidence of it happening.

Well, what wars have we had.

Frontier wars; too short
Civil war; force shifting happens big time, esp in the MT setting, 
but this maybe seen as different than an external war.
Interstellar wars; sifting happened as soon as the threat was seen as 
big enough
Solomani Rim wars; I don't know of anything either way.
Vargr pacification campaigns; I don't know of anything either way, 
except, like the rim wars, this was seen as the "imperium" fighting.

It is hard to see where evidence should be present and is lacking.

>  >
>>  Indeed, I was under the impression that is how at least one of the
>>  Emperor's  of the Flag had amassed enough of a fleet to overcome the
>>  Capital fleet.
>
>Well, in the case of Arbellata she stole fleets as she passed 
>through, but that
>doesn't mean it was SOP.

It fits the view of shifting the best.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 22:03:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Sat Aug 17 21:03:06 2002
Subject: [TML] 2d6 bell curve
References: <008901c245b7$c934af00$ca413b41@customer> <2073.64.8.3.28.1029566427.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <002101c2466c$1c7a8900$38ccd63f@customer>

Thanks that's very helpful.

John Scarlett
----- Original Message -----
From: <hal@buffnet.net>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2002 2:40 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] 2d6 bell curve


> Hello John,
>   Below is your chart in its original form.  Below that chart is my
>   corrected form based on what it appears you are trying to do:
>
> > Are percetages below correct?
> >
> > Roll    Chances
> > 2         1 in 36    02.77%
> > 3         2 in 36    08.33%
> > 4         3 in 36    16.66%
> > 5         4 in 36    27.77%
> > 6         5 in 36    41.66%
> > 7         6 in 36    58.33%
> > 8         5 in 36    41.66%
> > 9         4 in 36    27.77%
> > 10       3 in 36    16.66%
> > 11       2 in 36    08.33%
> > 12       1 in 36    02.77%
>
> 2 or 12:   2.78%
> 3 or 11:   5.56%
> 4 or 10:   8.33%
> 5 or  9:  11.11%
> 6 or  8:  13.89%
> 7      :  16.67%
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 22:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 17 21:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT- I need info on Austrailian SF writers association.
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020817233424.0260dea8@192.168.0.1>
References: <118.15eaa552.2a906bbd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D5ED6C1.21154.1067D9A@localhost>

Hey sorry to bother everyone with this but this was the fastest way to do this 
:)

I have a friend in Australia who is a pretty good armature writer, and I am 
looking for information on the Australian science fiction and or fantasy 
organization for writers so I can pass it on to her. I do not know if I have the 
right title of the association but someone knows what I am talking about.  If 
someone can send me contact info I would be happy.  Email would be good 
and a web site would be great.

Thanks a bunch

Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 22:11:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 17 21:11:47 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <20020818032341.35CE02793A@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFGENIDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817205659.009e5cb0@mindspring.com>

At 10:23 PM 8/17/02 -0500, you wrote:

>Not *quite* true. The Solomani Confederation is bordered by both the
>Imperium and the Aslan Hierate. The Aslan are honor bound to leave the
>Imperium alone by treaty, but they aren't honor bound to leave the
>Confederation alone. I rather suspect the Solomani and Aslan have been
>warring with each other for a long time...we just haven't heard much
>about it.

The Solomani also share a small border with the Hive Federation.  So they 
have three major states to contend with: one known hostile, one presumed 
hostile, and one that is really the biggest threat.

Hm.  Could the entire Solomani movement be a manipulation to keep the two 
branches of Humaniti at each others' throats?  To what end?

>Oh, and I've never been clear on how it is that the Aslan don't butt
>up against the Zhodani? Maybe it's out beyond charted space, and maybe
>we don't have any published accounts of the fighting going on out
>there, but that doesn't mean it's not happening.

The Aslan colonies in The Beyond and Vanguard Reaches *might* butt up 
against Zhodani client states; but I don't see any place where the two 
would connect.

>Speaking of the Zhodani, we don't know what they may have run into
>during their coreward explorations. However, they seem to have run
>into something, and that something is spreading unrest throughout
>their whole empire! We have a hint of it with the words "Empress
>Wave", but we don't know what it is.

Which could explain why the Fifth Frontier War was by far their most 
serious effort in five centuries.  They want out!

>The Vargr are already fractured in to pocket empires and independent
>systems. They are *all* surrounded by hostile forces. <g>

Except where they aren't.  Today.

>The K'kree have the Hivers and the Imperium. Personally, I'm in favor
>of Vargr movement coreward of the Imperium toward K'kree space. Those
>two species should mix "interestingly", to say the least. But that's
>just something I'd toss into the mix IMTU.

A K'kree/Vargr war would be epic, to say the least.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.
gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Author of GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces
Geek Code: tc tm tn- t4-- tg++$ ru ge+ 3i+@ c+
            jt- au pi he+ as+ so-                           



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 22:12:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Sat Aug 17 21:12:48 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <20020818032341.35CE02793A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001101c2466d$22967320$0b01a8c0@duck>

> Oh, and I've never been clear on how it is that the Aslan don't butt
> up against the Zhodani? Maybe it's out beyond charted space, and maybe
> we don't have any published accounts of the fighting going on out
> there, but that doesn't mean it's not happening.

Canon answers this:  There are many independent human states between
the Zhodani and the Aslan.  I imagine most of those states are either
strong enough on their own or get help from the Zhodani or Imperium
to help keep the Aslan out.

> Speaking of the Zhodani, we don't know what they may have run into
> during their coreward explorations. However, they seem to have run
> into something, and that something is spreading unrest throughout
> their whole empire! We have a hint of it with the words "Empress
> Wave", but we don't know what it is.

Well, the Empress Wave is pretty much TNE only, which will likely
mutate when the new TNE resource book eventually comes out.

And while there are some very minor hints that the EW exists in
the GT alternate history, it has never been actually named, so it 
might not.

Regardless, I don't think the EW really applies to the discussion
as it is not a polity, but rather an "event" of some kind that
basically makes the Consulate implode.  It is a different type of
thing than what the discussions have been about.

> The K'kree have the Hivers and the Imperium. Personally, I'm in favor
> of Vargr movement coreward of the Imperium toward K'kree space. Those
> two species should mix "interestingly", to say the least. But that's
> just something I'd toss into the mix IMTU.

Canon shows that the Vargr and K'kree *do* interact.  This does
not get out of hand, however, due to the Lesser Rift.

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 22:13:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 17 21:13:52 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <m3lm75ftv9.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <20020817041418.74310.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>
 <20020817041418.74310.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817210450.009e5ec0@mindspring.com>

At 08:22 AM 8/17/02 -0600, you wrote:

> > Surely that doesn't escape notice and at least a little awe and
> > respect.
>
>That's the thing: it's just a game.  And it's not even one which
>requires much intelligence.  Swing the bat, hit the ball, catch the
>ball, throw the ball--these are skills we could teach to chimps
>(although not, alas, to me--curs=E8d eyes).

The ball is moving at 90+ mph, and does strange things due to spinning.

>I don't understand the fascination with spectator sports.  Sure, I've
>read the psychological explanations thereof, but I simply cannot
>relate.  It's one thing to play a sport and be proud of one's
>performance; it's another entirely to derive some amount of self-worth
>from the fact that one's townsman (who was almost certainly imported)
>performs well.

Tribalism.  My warriors kicked your warriors butts.  It's also the joy of=20
watching performers at the top of their game.

>Don't even get me started about how my taxes pay for a _business's_
>premises.

Not in San Francisco!  Pac Bell Park was paid for entirely by the private=20
sector.

>All that said, it does reserve a certain amount of respect.  The man
>has certainly achieved _something_ (staying in the game long enough to
>get to a certain number of home runs).

It isn't just longevity... it is his dedication, skill and=20
determination.  People have played longer than him and never hit a third as=
=20
many home runs.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 22:15:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sat Aug 17 21:15:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Victory in the Frontier Wars
In-Reply-To: <20020818040305.12208.88756.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208180610130.24162-100000@ask.diku.dk>

David P. Summers writes:
>At 3:13 PM -0700 8/16/02, Douglas R Glatz wrote:
>>Referring to the MT/TNE timeline, when the rebellion kicks off, the Solomani,
>>the Vargr and the Aslan all cross Imperial borders and take territory.  While
>>there is no coordination in these actions, it is obvious that there *was* the
>>military forces, and contingency plans, in place to take these actions in
>>reaction to a change in the status quo.
>
>This is "sort" of like it.  Except the Zhos never get into it and the
>Vargr and Aslan just start going unorganized raiding (though that has
>an effect)

Note that some people (me for one) believe that given the canonical
description of the size, funding, and organization of Aslan _ihatei_ and
Vargr corsairs, the effect described in MT is completely, utterly,
willing-suspension-of-disbelief-shatteringly implausible.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 22:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 17 21:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <20020818023219.15DA02793A@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAKEDJDLAA.redroach@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817211027.009e3210@mindspring.com>

At 09:32 PM 8/17/02 -0500, you wrote:
> >I am a devotee of said game, but I still don't understand the furor.
> >Its just Barry Bonds. Loud mouth and possibly baseball player. Its
> >not like he found a cure for Polio or something.

There have been many players who were only loud mouths (which Barry isn't, 
in fact he refuses to speak to the press most of the time.) but actively 
unlikable.  Take Ty Cobb.  Or Babe Ruth!  Neither of whom i would invite 
into my home.

>Barry Bonds has never been a "lovable" player, but he has accomplished
>some remarkable feats the last few years, and hitting 600 homeruns in
>a career is an important milestone. I don't begrudge him his feat, or
>Giants fans their celebration.

Now, if we could only put together a few wins while the Dodgers (spit) and 
Diamondbacks hit a slump...


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
- Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 22:24:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 17 21:24:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockhead
In-Reply-To: <3D5EED34.1080100@usisp.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817211431.009e5a00@mindspring.com>

At 08:41 PM 8/17/02 -0400, you wrote:
>     It is my belief that the uwp could be improved upon.

*whole lotta snipping going on...*

Have you looked at _GURPS Traveller: First In_?  It has a world design 
system that addresses many of your concerns.  Based on current scientific 
knowledge, it gives fascinating results.

The system is really rather edition neutral.  You could easily use it with 
CT, as long as you translated things back into a UWP for trade codes and 
the like.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                    - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 22:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 17 21:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Vilani Chess
Message-ID: <9b.2c223755.2a907f57@aol.com>

>I was vaguely curious what you thought of Thashirudri, the game I posted?

I purposefully didn't look at it, because I didn't want to unconsciously put 
anything from it in GT: Nobles.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 23:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug 17 22:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817210450.009e5ec0@mindspring.com>
References: <20020817041418.74310.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>
 <20020817041418.74310.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020817210450.009e5ec0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m31y8wsq2i.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
>
> > It's one thing to play a sport and be proud of one's performance;
> > it's another entirely to derive some amount of self-worth from the
> > fact that one's townsman (who was almost certainly imported)
> > performs well.
> 
> Tribalism.  My warriors kicked your warriors' butts.  It's also the
> joy of watching performers at the top of their game.

But that's part of my problem--it's really not `my warriors' vs. `your
warriors'; it's really `my mercs' vs. `your mercs.'

I've never really derived much joy from watching _others_ at the top
of their games; I've certainly derived an amount of joy from being at
the top of my own.  Although I _have_ leapt to my feet at a Rockies
game before...

> > Don't even get me started about how my taxes pay for a
> > _business's_ premises.
> 
> Not in San Francisco!  Pac Bell Park was paid for entirely by the
> private sector.

That's a great and beautiful thing.  I would like an amendment to the
Constitution: no public funds shall be allocated to games-playing.  It
is a sick phenomenon.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Upgrading your OS and not needing to upgrade your hardware is a great
feeling.                                             --Patrick Mullen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 23:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug 17 22:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817205659.009e5cb0@mindspring.com>
References: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFGENIDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020817205659.009e5cb0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m3wuqorbc7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
> 
> A K'kree/Vargr war would be epic, to say the least.

And would hopefully end in the utter extermination of the K'kree (the
vegetarians, anywa--I understand the Hivers had some success in
modifying their disease).  I loathe the K'kree.  The Zhodani may be
annoying, the Hivers may be a nuisance, the Vargr may be a pest, must
the K'kree must be destroyed.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
You never need a weapon until you need one badly.  --Jay Maynard

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 23:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Sat Aug 17 22:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Vilani Chess
In-Reply-To: <9b.2c223755.2a907f57@aol.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOELKINAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>


>I was vaguely curious what you thought of Thashirudri, the game I posted?

I purposefully didn't look at it, because I didn't want to unconsciously put
anything from it in GT: Nobles.

LKW
_______________________________________________

sigh,

One vote no, one vote yes, one conscientious objector; nobody else seems to
be interested to post either way.

Does anyone think it is worth cleaning up and sending off to SJG?

jml
doing my part to extend canon
or mayhap filling the Black Hole


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 17 23:33:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 17 22:33:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Shifting fleets in Traveller Universe
In-Reply-To: <p04330102b984cb573203@[143.232.119.186]>
References: <ML-2.3.1029540496.4803.ajackson@ping>
 <p04330102b984cb573203@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <4627.64.8.3.28.1029648770.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

I seem to recall in IMPERIUM, where the govenor had to send ships out of
his sector at the Emperor's whim.  Other than that, I've not recalled
seeing anything regarding a fleet from a specific sector being moved from
one location to another.

Speaking of which?  The *only* way you can shift a fleet from one sector
into another is if you *intend* to start a war.  Either that, or the war
has been going on long enough for fleets to be able to arrive in time to
make a difference.  Fresh reinforcements anyone?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 00:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Sat Aug 17 23:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
In-Reply-To: <000101c244a0$7698d9a0$0c0a0a0a@glidenet.com>
Message-ID: <000001c2463b$7093bba0$6401a8c0@GOCA>

I figure time travel is possible..its just changes to the past create a
new quantum reality while the old timeline remains unchanged, thus
preserving causality.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Shawn R Sears
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 14:12
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] RE: Trek Tech

> 
>Time-Travel is a huge no-no. Do I have >something against it? 

Sure I allow time travel in my universe.
Everyone travels FORWARD.

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 00:03:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Sat Aug 17 23:03:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Casting Space Viking
In-Reply-To: <F56iYRZTwRcISVydZvQ00003ec3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000001c2463f$e9c040d0$6401a8c0@GOCA>

Actually, Lucas is going in to "Tanith" on a long-shot to hopefully find
Andray Dunnan and "Enterprise" there.  He finds Boake Valkinhayne and
Garvin Spasso instead.  Amaterasu is a whole different planet.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Larsen E. Whipsnade
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 12:24
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Casting Space Viking

From: John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

     "I seem to recall a ladies hand dangling something, but don't quote

me."


Mr. Lotz,

     That's the "Yo-Yo", one of the Space Viking vessels that come to 
Ameratsu(sp) to trade.  "Nemesis" finds "Space Scourge"; mailed fist
holding 
a comet by the head (looks like a whisk broom) and "Lamia" at
Ameratsu(sp).  
Boake Somebody is captain of the former and Garvan Spasso captain of the

latter.  Much to Harkaman's disgust, "Lamia" is run more like a
"soviet"; 
the crew divided into several committees each with reps on a central 
committee, than an actual Space Viking vessel.  "Captain" Spasso acts
merely 
as the mouthpiece.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 00:05:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Sat Aug 17 23:05:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockhead
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817211431.009e5a00@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPIEBJENAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

I now use First In with TNE. I have found no problems doing this, though it
can take awhile to completely generate a system. I have also used First In
to expand on generations done with other systems like the World Builders
Handbook.

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
Sent: Sunday, 18 August 2002 12:17 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Rockhead


At 08:41 PM 8/17/02 -0400, you wrote:
>     It is my belief that the uwp could be improved upon.

*whole lotta snipping going on...*

Have you looked at _GURPS Traveller: First In_?  It has a world design
system that addresses many of your concerns.  Based on current scientific
knowledge, it gives fascinating results.

The system is really rather edition neutral.  You could easily use it with
CT, as long as you translated things back into a UWP for trade codes and
the like.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                    - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 00:06:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Sat Aug 17 23:06:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Names of Tigresses
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208180340140.16440-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEBJENAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Also note that just becuase the class name is Tigeress does not mean all the
ships are named for the female of the species.

Vessels of this class facing the Aslan, would they consider a battleship
named for a female cat as an insult?

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Hans Henrik
Rancke-Madsen
Sent: Sunday, 18 August 2002 10:02 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Re: Names of Tigresses


Leslie Bates writes:

>I need to name a TIGRESS class dreadnought for parts 5 and 6 of Friends in
>High Places.

I had a look through the Encyclopedia Brittanica and found some names for
Tigress Class Dreadna/oughts. Not nearly enough (if there are 17-18 8-ship
Tigress BatRons, then there are about 140 Tigresses), but you may find
them useful. IMO the more euphonious names would have been used first.

Tigress
Lioness          (IIRC _BtC_ mentions that _Lioness_ was destroyed during
                  the 5FW and replaced by a Lioness II)
Leopardess
Cougaress
Jaguaress
Pantheress       (_Pantheress_ was part of the squadron that was assigned
                  to the 212th Fleet at Rhylanor prior to the 5FW. After
                  the war the 212th was rotated to Jewell. Did the
                  Tigresses go with them or were they transferred to
                  another fleet?)
Pardess
Servaless
Ocelotess
Caradaless
Margayess
Catamountess
Clouded Tigress
Mountain Lioness
Snow Leopardess
Clouded Leopardess
Deer Tigress
Lynxess
Pumaess
Ouncess
Chetahess
Jaguarundess
Ligeress          (A liger is the (infertile) offspring of a male lion and
Tigoness          a female tiger and a tigon the (also infertile) offspring
                  of a male tiger and a female lion.)
Smilodontess
Sabretooth Tigress
Dirktooth Tigress

After that you propably have to fall back on 'alien carnivore/pouncers
with felinoid shapes', like Tuft Tigress etc. (Aslaness will be vetoed
by the Emperor himself!!)

(Since I first compiled the list I've stumbled across one or two more
names, but unfortunately I've failed to update the list, so I can't
remember what they were. IIRC there is an Egyptian mythological beast
called a <something> pard.)

There's a dozen wild cats that all are named 'something cat'.

Bobcat
Caffre cat
Fishing cat
Flat-headed cat
Geoffroy's cat
Golden cat
Marbeled cat
Pallas's cat
Pampas cat
Wildcat
Leopard cat

Unfortunately the only words I can find for 'female cat' is 'she-cat'
and 'tabby', and neither 'Xxxxx she-cat' nor 'Xxxxx tabby' really
appeals to me as names (I mean, how does _Wild Tabby_ or _Bob Shecat_ do
for you? See what I mean?). YMMV.

(Incidentally, I would have thought that the female of 'tomcat' would be
'tabby' and I would further think that no Naval <whoever decides on names
for ships> would ever use a name for a _domestic_ cat for a Tigress. But
that's just my opinion.



Hans

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TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 00:07:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Sat Aug 17 23:07:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <3d5e36c8.6019642@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPMEBJENAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Have a look at the larger TNE warships, luxury cabins huhh!, on my version
of a Tigress

Crew: 15,339 (6,357xEngineering, 8xElectronics, 4xManeuver, 3,330xGunnery,
877xMaintenance, 600xFlight Crew, 3,549xCommand, 488xSteward, 126xMedical)
Flagship adds 26 (4xElectronics, 19xCommand, 2xSteward, 1xMedical)

Crew Accommodations: 24xLarge Staterooms (0.001Mw each), 4,200xSmall
Staterooms (0.0005Mw each)

Conclusion, despite the hype around this class they are cramped and
overcrowded. Essentially the hightech equivelant of HMS Victory of the
Napoleonic period.

I certainly would not want to serve on a Tigress.

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Stephen Tempest
Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2002 8:10 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation


I've noticed a disturbing trend among some starship designers to give
luxury accommodation to the ship's crew.  Even individual staterooms
for each rating are not considered extravagant.

Frankly, I think this mollycoddling and pampering will be fatal to the
morale of His Imperial Majesty's navy.

I've come to this conclusion after doing some reading on shipboard
life during the Age of Sail (which we all know Trav is partially based
on).  On a typical 74-gun ship of the line:

Senior officers had 8' square cabins, with a deck height of 6'.  That
makes about 10 square metres per officer:  or a single 4-ton standard
stateroom per 5 officers.

The crew of 500 were accommodated in an area of about 6000 square
feet.  Assuming the same deck height, that makes 1000 cubic metres or
2 cu.m per man.  One 4-ton stateroom per 28 people.

Of course, when the ship was at sea the crew would be observing
watches, so only half the crew would be asleep at one time, and they'd
have effectively twice the amount of space.  In Traveller terms, that
would equate to hot-bunking.

It's also worth pointing out that this accommodation wasn't only for
short periods:  many sailers would spend 4-5 years on shipboard before
they ever set foot on land again.

So, simplifying things a little, let's say officers get to share a
double stateroom with hot-bunking (1 per 4 officers) and crew are in
16-person bunkrooms, again with hot-bunking (1 per 32 crew).

Introduce this as standard design policy for warships and think how
much extra volume for weapons and powerplants will be freed up!

(Of course the crews might grumble a little, but introduce a few of
the disciplinary policies from the Age of Sail as well and they'll
soon settle down...)

Stephen

www.stempest.demon.co.uk/traveller/
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 00:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 17 23:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Zhodani Frontier War Philosophy
Message-ID: <1a8.6f28876.2a9096d4@aol.com>

 >Could it be possible that the Zhodani are playing a waiting game?

Lenin said regarding the overthrow of the west:  "Probe with bayonets.  Where 
you find steel, withdraw.  Where you find mush, continue."  I think the 
Zhodani are taking that statement one better and attempting to create mush.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 00:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug 17 23:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Zhodani Frontier War Philosophy
In-Reply-To: <1a8.6f28876.2a9096d4@aol.com>
References: <1a8.6f28876.2a9096d4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m33ctcr866.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
> 
> Lenin said regarding the overthrow of the west: "Probe with
> bayonets.  Where you find steel, withdraw.  Where you find mush,
> continue."  I think the Zhodani are taking that statement one better
> and attempting to create mush.

Lenin lost.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Take responsibility for your own actions.  You made decisions, and you
live by 'em.  People always want to blame somebody or something.  It's
always somebody else's fault.  But it's your own damned fault.
                                                 --Mojo Nixon

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 00:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 17 23:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Zhodani Frontier War Philosophy
In-Reply-To: <m33ctcr866.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <1a8.6f28876.2a9096d4@aol.com>
 <m33ctcr866.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <1404.64.8.3.28.1029652600.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

> Flykiller@aol.com writes:
>>
>> Lenin said regarding the overthrow of the west: "Probe with
>> bayonets.  Where you find steel, withdraw.  Where you find mush,
>> continue."  I think the Zhodani are taking that statement one better
>> and attempting to create mush.
>
> Lenin lost.

How did Lenin lose?  When he died, Russia was still Russia, and many had
died at his hands.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 00:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 17 23:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockhead
Message-ID: <90.2a95b775.2a909c11@aol.com>

 >I welcome constructive criticism in order to improve it.

I would say add some modifiers regarding proximity to other populated worlds. 
 Traveller canon says that the Spinward Main developed more rapidly than 
worlds off of the Main because the Main worlds could be reached by jump 1 
vessels, and that other worlds languished and were left behind.  If you study 
the Main it is obvious that this modifier was not implemented, as the worlds 
on the Main are indistinguishable from those off of it, but it makes sense to 
actually implement such a modifier.  Say you have an A or 9 world with no 
other A or 9 world within 6 parsecs -- it's not going to do much trading and 
it's going to do a lot of work on its own.  But if you have two or three A or 
9 worlds within 2 parsecs of each other then they'll trade a great deal in 
both goods and technology.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 00:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug 17 23:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Zhodani Frontier War Philosophy
In-Reply-To: <1404.64.8.3.28.1029652600.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <1a8.6f28876.2a9096d4@aol.com> <m33ctcr866.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
 <1404.64.8.3.28.1029652600.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <m3u1lspst1.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

hal@buffnet.net writes:
>
> > > Lenin said regarding the overthrow of the west: "Probe with
> > > bayonets.  Where you find steel, withdraw.  Where you find mush,
> > > continue."  I think the Zhodani are taking that statement one
> > > better and attempting to create mush.
> >
> > Lenin lost.
> 
> How did Lenin lose?  When he died, Russia was still Russia, and many
> had died at his hands.

He lost: Russia, while not the holt country it once was, has become
capitalist and free.  Lenin's regime of slavery has been conquered.

Millions are free, and Lenin is nothing more than a head and some
limbs, preserved for the sake of habit.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
There's nothing in human experience compared to which a sendmail
config file could be considered simple.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 00:49:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Sat Aug 17 23:49:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020817164753.00b88008@mailhost.efn.org>
Message-ID: <000001c24683$41d45610$6501a8c0@Darla>

Snicker...I did something similar to my players a few years ago.  When
refueling at a gas giant in an Amber Zone, they picked up a very small
ship trying to match velocities with them.  They concluded, almost
correctly, that it was some sort of CAPTOR mine and tried to avoid, but
the pilot eventually ran out of luck and the unknown collided with their
ship.

Instead of the expected "BOOM", instead they got on a guard frequency:
"I'M A SIXTY MINUTE MINE...I'M A SIXTY MINUTE MINE...FIFTY-NINE MINUTES
FIFTY-NINE SECONDS...FIFTY-NINE MINUTES FIFTY-EIGHT SECONDS..."  At this
time I placed a big old mechanical photo timer with a very loud
tick-tock on the table and started it.

They were shortly after contacted by the Pirates who had placed the mine
with an offer to sell them the disarm code...

TWB

P.S. the original idea is the "sixty-second bomb" in Starship Troopers.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 01:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Akchizar)
Date: Sun Aug 18 00:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
In-Reply-To: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFGENBDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
Message-ID: <NFBBJPPMILPGBFNEIEOCGELCCDAA.Akchizar@SoftHome.net>

>Anyway I've always considered any game to be a set of guidelines from which
>I introduce house rules etc.

I always stuck to the D20 system when using D&D 3rd ed. But after looking
over T4, i decided to consider it not as rules, but as an idea, and am in
the process of modifying everything possible. I think sometimes that the
problem with D&D is that either something works well, or it's so embedded
into the actual system that it's hard to change more that small parts of the
rules. The great thing about T4 was that so much of it had problems that I
could put in house rules for whole heaps of bits. Anyay, that's my opinion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 01:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 18 00:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Tech Levelling
In-Reply-To: <lfltluk0rocq2fhglkaq24jvjemv56mupr@4ax.com>
References: <lfltluk0rocq2fhglkaq24jvjemv56mupr@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020818174853.A3991@freeman.little-possums.net>

Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
> Think cost of transport as an additional factor.  If shipping a car from
> Japan to the US added an additional $1000 per Traveller Displacement Ton
> (or about $1000-1500 per car [I assumed dimensions of 15'x8'x5']) per week,
> and it took a minimum of a week to get from origin to destination, would
> there be as much trade in cars between the US and Japan?

That's well within the range of shipping prices and times in the real
world.  So yes, I can say with great confidence that there would.

However, cars are actually a fairly low-value cargo per unit volume.
One dton of consumer electronics or even clothing can easily be worth
10 times as much as a car.  If you raised freight rates in Traveller,
other items would continue to be viable for much longer than cars
would.


> Ummm... Look again: China is at a lower TL than Australia,

Says who?  They aren't as rich per head of population, but they
certainly have similar technology capability.  In fact, Australia
imports far more high-tech goods from China than the reverse.

If TL is so important to trade, and you think that China is lower tech
than Australia, how could that possibly be?


> And what _does_ Australia export?  And to where?  I don't see very
> much of anything that has 'Made in Australia' on it...

Why would you expect to?  Australia exports rather large amounts of
agricultural produce, metals, and petroleum products, but not many
consumer products.  That's part of my point.

Australia has roughly the same land area as the US, but with about 6%
the population.  Per head of population, we have huge amounts of many
natural resources.  It thus makes sense for a lot of our exports to be
direct products of those resources.

This translates directly to Traveller, since different planets are
going to have a very different mix of resources of various types.


> Yes, I simplified in my earlier posts,

To the point of absurdity.


> and yes, I omitted some factors that I shouldn't have.  But TL _is_
> a big factor in trade, even in the real world today.

It is a big factor, but not the sole determinant or even the biggest
factor.  The mix of needs and available resources is far more
important.  Cultural diversity also plays a part.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 02:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Simon Brodie)
Date: Sun Aug 18 01:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
References: <NFBBJPPMILPGBFNEIEOCGELCCDAA.Akchizar@SoftHome.net>
Message-ID: <003801c2468f$9918c440$8f68ff3e@bloodyhellfire>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Akchizar" <Akchizar@SoftHome.net>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: 18 August 2002 8:15 AM
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.

><snip> The great thing about T4 was that so much of it had problems...>

And this is why us gamers can often get sold absolute heaps of garbage.  If
we bought cars the had as many problems we would get our money back, not
think how great it is that we now get to continually tinker with the engine
just to get it working.

That is why I am glad T20 has slipped, the feeling I get is that time is
being spent making sure we don't get sold 'another' turkey.

Well, just my 10c worth, or is it 12 Euros?

Si



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 02:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Simon Brodie)
Date: Sun Aug 18 01:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
References: <NFBBJPPMILPGBFNEIEOCGELCCDAA.Akchizar@SoftHome.net> <003801c2468f$9918c440$8f68ff3e@bloodyhellfire>
Message-ID: <004a01c24690$c1cd7e20$8f68ff3e@bloodyhellfire>

> ><snip> The great thing about T4 was that so much of it had problems...>
>
> And this is why us gamers can often get sold absolute heaps of garbage.
If
> we bought cars the had as many problems we would get our money back, not
> think how great it is that we now get to continually tinker with the
engine
> just to get it working.
>
> That is why I am glad T20 has slipped, the feeling I get is that time is
> being spent making sure we don't get sold 'another' turkey.
>
> Well, just my 10c worth, or is it 12 Euros?
>
> Si

----- Original Message -----
From: "Simon Brodie" <mr.fingle@virgin.net>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: 18 August 2002 9:16 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] OTU is out of wack.

wow, didn't realize how much of a nerve this had touched until I read it
myself.  Guess I am still sore about some of the bits of rubbish I have
bought in the past.

:-)

Si


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 02:21:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Akchizar)
Date: Sun Aug 18 01:21:04 2002
Subject: [TML] OTU is out of wack.
In-Reply-To: <003801c2468f$9918c440$8f68ff3e@bloodyhellfire>
Message-ID: <NFBBJPPMILPGBFNEIEOCIELECDAA.Akchizar@SoftHome.net>

<snippage>And this is why us gamers can often get sold absolute heaps of
garbage.<snippage>
but...but....THATS THE FUN!!!!! I walk into the second-hand book store, and
i go 2 the rp books. and i look through the usual...D&D 1st ed, teenage
mutant truckin' turtles, torg, star trek...and i see an rp system. it looks
lonely. so i buy it for $10-$20. I take it home. i read it. i never use it.
but i keep it. and i mod it. and when i get lonely at night, i take them
out, and i talk to them...

well...maybe im not *that* far gone...


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 02:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (douglas glatz)
Date: Sun Aug 18 01:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Damned Silly Questions
References: <3.0.6.32.20020817113835.007bb100@minn.net>
Message-ID: <00ce01c24691$12974160$8116a8c0@localdomain.com>

Boys are Toms, girls are Queens.

Kelly and Jeff answered it, I'm merely confirming it - I breed 'em (Maine
Coons).

douglas

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leslie Bates" <lesbates@minn.net>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2002 9:38 AM
Subject: [TML] Damned Silly Questions


> I sorry about having to send this message again. For some reason the first
> transmission had not appeared in my mail box as of this time.
>
> I need to name a TIGRESS class dreadnought for parts 5 and 6 of Friends in
> High Places.
>
> Is there a feminine form of tomcat? If so, what is it?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
>
> Les
>
> ==================================================================
> Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
> P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>      We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them
> and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our
> beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief
> pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled.
> -- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>      Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
> death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one
> who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of
> new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat.
>      From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
> things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of
> flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
> be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time.
> -- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
> ==================================================================
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 02:26:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (douglas glatz)
Date: Sun Aug 18 01:26:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
References: <200208162213.g7GMDYE13854@catenary.cesa.opbu.xerox.com> <p04330101b984cb10215c@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <00cf01c24691$13ee9400$8116a8c0@localdomain.com>

> >Referring to the MT/TNE timeline, when the rebellion kicks off, the
Solomani,
> >the Vargr and the Aslan all cross Imperial borders and take territory.
While
> >there is no coordination in these actions, it is obvious that there *was*
the
> >military forces, and contingency plans, in place to take these actions in
> >reaction to a change in the status quo.
>
> This is "sort" of like it.  Except the Zhos never get into it and the
> Vargr and Aslan just start going unorganized raiding (though that has
> an effect)

I've always liked the explanation that the Zho's only felt threatened by a
unified Imperium - the Domain of Deneb was no threat to their internal
security, so they ignored it.

However, that tends to require a fundementally non-expansionistic Consulate.
As opposed to the Expansionistic tendencies of the Vargr, and the
apparantly, the Aslan.

douglas



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 02:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 18 01:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Zhodani Frontier War Philosophy
In-Reply-To: <m38z35t2ks.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEGGEEAA.carlino@cox.net> <m38z35t2ks.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020818185239.B3991@freeman.little-possums.net>

Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> That raises the whole issue of the Imperium's outlook on psionics.
> I'm not certain that it makes a whole lot of sense, to tell the
> truth, esp. when there's a violent neighbour who uses them.

It makes sense if you believe that the Zhodani deliberately influenced
the Imperium to suppress their own psionic development :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 02:54:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 18 01:54:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Victory in the Frontier Wars
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208180610130.24162-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <20020818040305.12208.88756.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208180610130.24162-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <20020818185349.C3991@freeman.little-possums.net>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> Note that some people (me for one) believe that given the canonical
> description of the size, funding, and organization of Aslan _ihatei_ and
> Vargr corsairs, the effect described in MT is completely, utterly,
> willing-suspension-of-disbelief-shatteringly implausible.

Me for another one.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 05:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug 18 04:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Zhodani Frontier War Philosophy
Message-ID: <15b.12b1d880.2a90e424@aol.com>

In a message dated 18/08/02 07:49:07 GMT Daylight Time, ruhl@4dv.net writes:


hal@buffnet.net writes:
>
> > > Lenin said regarding the overthrow of the west: "Probe with
> > > bayonets.  Where you find steel, withdraw.  Where you find mush,
> > > continue."  I think the Zhodani are taking that statement one
> > > better and attempting to create mush.
> >
> > Lenin lost.
> 
> How did Lenin lose?  When he died, Russia was still Russia, and many
> had died at his hands.

He lost: Russia, while not the holt country it once was, has become
capitalist and free.  Lenin's regime of slavery has been conquered.

Millions are free, and Lenin is nothing more than a head and some
limbs, preserved for the sake of habit.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

In all fairness to Lenin (and I am no lover of him or his philosophy) I think 
you are blaming many of the ills of the Soviet Union on the wrong man. That 
doesn't of course mean Lenin was a nice, misunderstood fellow who had he 
survived would have produced a Workers' Paradise; it just means that he 
didn't have enough time in power after the Boleshivik Revolution to really 
make his mark.

Lenin seized power in October 1917 and the Bolsheviks fought a civil war 
until October 1920. Lenin allowed limited capitalism (although how long this 
would have lasted is open for discussion) with the New Economic Plan in 1921. 
An attempt, I believe, to speed recovery after six years of war.

In May 1922 Lenin suffered his first stroke and power effectively passed to 
Stalin and Zinoviev. Lenin died on January 21st 1924 having been unable to 
speak since his third stroke in March 1923.

Forced collectivisation of land and centrally planned economics didn't really 
take off until 1928 under Stalin. I humbly suggest that your opprobrium 
should be directed at Comrade Stalin, who was, IMHO, a much bigger bastard 
than Lenin.

I would also suggest that you avoid declaring Russia free until at least a 
hundred years have passed, it is too early yet to know how the dice will 
fall.
  
Charles

obTrav: er...give me time...it's on the tip of my tongue...

I addressed some cheerful chit-chat at the man opposite but was rewarded with 
grunt. I tried the man next to me but he just looked at the gentleman I had 
tried first and said "Do you know what he's talking about?" At this point I 
realised I was getting out my depth but the Dean stepped in and saved me, "Oh 
don't worry about it" he said, "They're mathematicians - we never talk to 
them."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 06:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shawn R Sears)
Date: Sun Aug 18 05:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] 2d6 bell curve
In-Reply-To: <005301c245a8$b212e440$ca413b41@customer>
Message-ID: <000401c246af$7b606050$0c0a0a0a@glidenet.com>

Actually 2d6 will NOT produce a bell curve.
You need 3d# to produce an actual bell curve.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of John Scarlett
Sent: Saturday, 17 August, 2002 00:44
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] 2d6 bell curve

Some help please.  Does anyone have or know where I can find a bell
curve
for 2 six sided dice.  Mind you I'm not that mathematically incline so
it
would have to something simple.

Thanks in advance.
John Scarlett
----------------------------
A child educated only at school is an uneducated child.- George
Santayana


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 06:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sun Aug 18 05:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Human Nature or 'WWRD' or 'WWAD'
In-Reply-To: <1828.208.28.190.37.1029632377.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <14prlukovr8b9uqj0u65dbd1sajo6rno6g@4ax.com> <20020816232302.6238.63480.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <14prlukovr8b9uqj0u65dbd1sajo6rno6g@4ax.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020817090545.009eb100@mindspring.com> <1828.208.28.190.37.1029632377.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <3d5f8b21.3050195@post.demon.co.uk>

hal@buffnet.net writes:

>First off, I'd construct a LOT of intelligence scout ships that wait on
>the outskirts of Zhondani systems within jump distance of Imperial
>borders.  These scouts would then act as trip wires as they watch for
>massed fleet build ups.=20

Bear in mind that if the scout ships are registered to the IN or IISS,
the Consulate would be perfectly justified in considering this to be
an act of war - and if they're civilian ships, they're spying and the
crews are presumably liable to execution if caught...  If the Imperium
_wants_ to provoke a war with the Consulate, this seems a good way of
going about it.

> If a system has only 24 system defense boats (all
>likely trying to hunt down the scouts by the way) in it, and suddenly =
has
>100 warships in it and needs to refuel for its push into Imperial
>territory - wouldn't that be a sign for the Imperials to start moving =
over
>to war alert status?

What if the Zhodani conduct regular fleet exercises, and twice a year
for 10 years 100 ships appear in that border system?  How will the
scouts (and their Naval Intelligence handlers) know that _this_ time,
it's for real?  How long can you stay at war alert status?

=46or that matter, what if the Zhodani fleet assembles at an uncharted
star or a fuel dump in deep space?

Stephen

TAS Report from Regina/Regina, 186-1107
"The Admiralty was today electrified by the report of the appearance
of a substantial Zhodani battlefleet at Ruie (Regina 0209), scarcely a
parsec from the subsector capital.  The report was carried by the
detached scout/courier _Wayward Dream_. [...] Thus far Ambassador
Shterbifriashav has been unavailable for comment.  [...] Grave
diplomatic repercussions are expected."

TAS Report from Rhylanor/Rhylanor, 201-1107
"Word has today been received by fleet courier of the invasion of
Regina."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 06:26:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sun Aug 18 05:26:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Zhodani tech development (Was: Victory in the Frontier Wars)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208180220230.16440-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208180220230.16440-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <3d61913b.4611769@post.demon.co.uk>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:

>No. At some point around -1000 they just decided to put a moratotium on
>further expansion while they consolidated their present holdings. Since
>then they haven't expanded much. Just why it would take them more than
>2000 years to consolidate is not explained anywhere.

Because colonising new planets demands people who are individualistic,
independent, rugged, and capable of being both ruthless and selfish
when their survival demands it?

Even if such people still exist in the Brave New World of the
Consulate, I expect the nobles fear them and don't want them setting
up worlds of their own outside the settled power structure.  The only
possible exception is if you can load them into long-distance
transports and send them safely hundreds of parsecs out of the way to
settle the Core Route.  (Social engineering;  not a reason I've seen
put forward for the Core Expeditions before, but it *does* seem to fit
the facts...)

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 06:27:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sun Aug 18 05:27:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Tech Levelling
In-Reply-To: <lfltluk0rocq2fhglkaq24jvjemv56mupr@4ax.com>
References: <lfltluk0rocq2fhglkaq24jvjemv56mupr@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <3d608f28.4080772@post.demon.co.uk>

Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com> writes:

>
>And what _does_ Australia export?  And to where?  I don't see very much =
of
>anything that has 'Made in Australia' on it...
>
Off the top of my head, I'd say wool, mutton, and minerals.  Oh, and
beer.  And daytime soap operas.  And Kylie Minogue.

Having looked it up, I see that I can add beef and wheat to that list,
and that Australia in 1990 exported about $40b from a GNP of $240b
(17%), mostly to Japan (27%) and the US (11%).

Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 06:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Sun Aug 18 05:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <20020818033255.89A672793A@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020818033255.89A672793A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3d6293c8.5264889@post.demon.co.uk>

"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com> writes:

>I'd like to point out that if you have gravity control, you don't have
>to have "bunks", containment webbing will do. Stack 'em up like
>cordwood! <g>

To push the analogy of an 18th century warship to the limit, you don't
actually need dedicated space for the crew at all.  Just let them
sling their hammocks (sorry, containment webbing) in the ship's gun
turrets and bays...

I also note that apparently, one of the biggest problems with
hotbunking is psychological - the feeling that you don't have your own
space, and even your bedding still carries someone else's smell and
body heat.  If everyone has their own bedding, and it's just the space
where they rig it which is shared with someone else, even that problem
is averted!

Stephen
(And for Terry's benefit, perhaps I should confirm that yes, my tongue
is firmly in my cheek throughout this thread...)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 06:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sun Aug 18 05:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <m3wuqorbc7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817205659.009e5cb0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3D60407A.27103.29B41BB@localhost>

On 17 Aug 2002, at 23:21, Robert Uhl wrote:

> And would hopefully end in the utter extermination of the K'kree (the
> vegetarians, anywa--I understand the Hivers had some success in
> modifying their disease).  I loathe the K'kree.  The Zhodani may be
> annoying, the Hivers may be a nuisance, the Vargr may be a pest, must
> the K'kree must be destroyed.

Sir, you obviously fail to understand the importance of maintaining the 
K'kree. Not only are they an excellant distraction for the perfidious Hivers, 
but they are excellant with mint sauce.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 06:51:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sun Aug 18 05:51:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Victory in the Frontier Wars
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208180610130.24162-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <20020818040305.12208.88756.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D60407A.2843.29B41BB@localhost>

On 18 Aug 2002, at 6:14, Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> Note that some people (me for one) believe that given the canonical
> description of the size, funding, and organization of Aslan _ihatei_ and
> Vargr corsairs, the effect described in MT is completely, utterly,
> willing-suspension-of-disbelief-shatteringly implausible.

Ditto

IMTU Vargr corsairs raid small colonies (pop 3 and 4). Big enough to be 
profitable, but small enough to take on. Aslan Ihatei just don't move into an 
organised state, they prefer uninhabited worlds, but will go for worlds 
similar to corsairs if nothing easier is available.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 07:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Sun Aug 18 06:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Human Nature or 'WWRD' or 'WWAD'
In-Reply-To: <3d5f8b21.3050195@post.demon.co.uk>
References: <1828.208.28.190.37.1029632377.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <14prlukovr8b9uqj0u65dbd1sajo6rno6g@4ax.com>
 <20020816232302.6238.63480.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <14prlukovr8b9uqj0u65dbd1sajo6rno6g@4ax.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020817090545.009eb100@mindspring.com>
 <1828.208.28.190.37.1029632377.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020818090531.02500c00@mail.buffnet.net>

Hello Stephen,




>Bear in mind that if the scout ships are registered to the IN or IISS,
>the Consulate would be perfectly justified in considering this to be
>an act of war - and if they're civilian ships, they're spying and the
>crews are presumably liable to execution if caught...  If the Imperium
>_wants_ to provoke a war with the Consulate, this seems a good way of
>going about it.

of course it would be espionage.  Point is?  They have to *catch* the 
ships.  And the crews would be intel types or Scouts to begin with.  As it 
is, IISS is NOT a military outfit - it is a civilian branch of stellar 
survey activities.  ;)



> > If a system has only 24 system defense boats (all
> >likely trying to hunt down the scouts by the way) in it, and suddenly has
> >100 warships in it and needs to refuel for its push into Imperial
> >territory - wouldn't that be a sign for the Imperials to start moving over
> >to war alert status?
>
>What if the Zhodani conduct regular fleet exercises, and twice a year
>for 10 years 100 ships appear in that border system?  How will the
>scouts (and their Naval Intelligence handlers) know that _this_ time,
>it's for real?  How long can you stay at war alert status?
>
>For that matter, what if the Zhodani fleet assembles at an uncharted
>star or a fuel dump in deep space?


For the military manuevers part - they need supplies to be transported.  A 
fleet without transports isn't much of a threat.  A fleet with transports 
is a threat.  As for the deep space fuel depots?  That is a definite issue. ;)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 08:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug 18 07:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Zhodani tech development (Was: Victory in the Frontier Wars)
Message-ID: <76.20f1f2e0.2a91023e@aol.com>

In a message dated 18/08/02 13:27:18 GMT Daylight Time, 
tml@stempest.demon.co.uk writes:


> >No. At some point around -1000 they just decided to put a moratotium on
> >further expansion while they consolidated their present holdings. Since
> >then they haven't expanded much. Just why it would take them more than
> >2000 years to consolidate is not explained anywhere.
> 
> Because colonising new planets demands people who are individualistic,
> independent, rugged, and capable of being both ruthless and selfish
> when their survival demands it?
> 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Isn't it possible to argue the opposite POV - that the colonisation of worlds 
requires people able to work well as a group, and who consider the welfare of 
the whole enterprise over the welfare of themselves as individuals?

Also the Zhodani of canon are personally ambitious and their ability to 
direct individuals toward particular jobs means they can probably produce 
"ideal" colonists in large numbers if they so choose.
 
Charles

"All of us are creatures of a day; the rememberer and remembered alike"

Marcus Aurelius, Mediations IV/35


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 08:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug 18 07:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] 2d6 bell curve
Message-ID: <200208181437.NAV00298@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Shawn R Sears says
>Actually 2d6 will NOT produce a bell curve.
>You need 3d# to produce an actual bell curve.


Shame on you!  Throw the dice enough times and you *will* get 
such a distribution.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 09:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug 18 08:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] PBeM game
Message-ID: <000f01c245a8$1355af40$0df03c04@backupcompute>

Novice Traveller seeks PBeM game. New to the game, first time actually. =
Please reply to michael.grulich@verizon.net if interested in having me =
in your game.

Thanks


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 09:40:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Edward Swatschek)
Date: Sun Aug 18 08:40:11 2002
Subject: [TML] FFW Question
In-Reply-To: <20020817054530.80135.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020817054530.80135.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020818014847.SUZE3365.priv-edtnes15-hme0.telusplanet.net@there>

On Friday 16 August 2002 22:45, Scott Ayres wrote:
> --- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> > At 05:18 PM 8/16/02 -0700,  Scott Ayres <ayrcontml@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Did the Zho's ever actually attack Regina (in
> > >canon)?
> >
> > Depends on your canon.  CT canon is unclear.  In
> > Ground Forces it is stated clearly that there is a
> > landing.
>
> Between the old JTAS cover (assuming it's Regina) &
> the GF description, that's good enough for me.  Thanks.


The initial TNS reports indicate Regina was attacked:

>>> Regina/Regina (0310-A788899-A) Date: 187-1107

The Duke of Regina, speaking through his seneschal, announced in an 
emergency press conference that as of 12:01 A.M. this date a formal state 
of war has existed between the Imperium and the Zhodani Consulate. The 
seneschal explained that the declaration of war was handed to him by 
Ambassador Shterbifriashav late last night. The seneschal declined to 
answer questions, stating that no further information was available at that 
time. 


>>> Rhylanor/Rhylanor (0306-A434934-F) Date: 201-1107

Word has today been received by fleet courier of the invasion of Regina, 
the capital of the Spinward Marches. Naval spokesmen of the 212th Fleet 
declined to comment publicly, but in private one naval officer expressed 
the opinion that prolonged resistance on the world was unlikely in the 
event of a serious Zhodani assault. 

Coming only days after receipt of the news of the outbreak of the war, news 
of Regina's invasion is a heavy blow to hopes of an early victory over the 
Zhodani. The fall of Regina could sever the main communications artery to 
the Jewell subsector, and seriously hinder communication with fleet 
elements presumed to be fighting there. 


-- 
Edward Swatschek - edjs@bitslayer.net

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 09:41:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shadowcat)
Date: Sun Aug 18 08:41:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Names of Tigresses
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208180340140.16440-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <20020818011804.24991.62249.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D5EDD0D.11267.151AECC@localhost>

I'd at least use the "Grumman Cats"
Tigercat
Wildcat
Bearcat
Tomcat

his royal furry magnifence Lord Fafrhd, votes for Coon Cat to be 
included, and demand another 500 chihuhuas as tribute for the 
slight if its not included


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 09:51:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun Aug 18 08:51:04 2002
Subject: [TML] View before eating
Message-ID: <F118l37W4jb8BGxWSlv00009452@hotmail.com>

Fred, mon cher,

     Thought this little pic would bring a few smiles to the denizens of the 
All New Bear Den deep in the heart of the Baked Apple.  In it, I am trying 
my best to bring some "tone" to a family pool party.  Being a fashion 
pioneer truly is a thankless job.


     As always, I remain, etc., etc., etc.,
     B.

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 09:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug 18 08:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
Message-ID: <10e.15e6248e.2a911dc0@cs.com>

babyduck@mindspring.com writes: 
> Of
> course its J3 M6 and heavily armed with a PA bay and the Whipsnade
> configurable turrets. 
> 

Apparently I missed this reengineering of turrets. Could someone please 
review this online, or at least point me toward a site with this information? 
Thank you

Doug Grimes


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 10:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sun Aug 18 09:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Damned Silly Questions
References: <a7.251d2f62.2a8db4d6@aol.com> <3.0.6.32.20020817091336.00a8d100@minn.net>
Message-ID: <3D5FCDBB.5013C3EE@mindspring.com>

Leslie Bates wrote:
> 
> I need to name a TIGRESS class dreadnought for parts 5 and 6 of Friends in
> High Places.
> 
> Is there a feminine form of tomcat? If so, what is it?
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> Les
> 
> 

I'm partial to Danger Kitty. ;)
-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute.
That's relativity.
                               -Albert Einstein

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 10:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sun Aug 18 09:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817092651.009de420@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3D5FCED0.AAFABDD5@mindspring.com>

Douglas Berry wrote:
> 

> 
> Tell me, if I came up to you and insisted that Sweden was a threat to our
> way of life, what would you say?
> 


Nuke em till they glow. I think there's a magazine article in that. :o
-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute.
That's relativity.
                               -Albert Einstein

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 11:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Aug 18 10:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Human Nature or 'WWRD' or 'WWAD'
In-Reply-To: <3d5f8b21.3050195@post.demon.co.uk>
References: <1828.208.28.190.37.1029632377.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <14prlukovr8b9uqj0u65dbd1sajo6rno6g@4ax.com>
 <20020816232302.6238.63480.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <14prlukovr8b9uqj0u65dbd1sajo6rno6g@4ax.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020817090545.009eb100@mindspring.com>
 <1828.208.28.190.37.1029632377.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020818094331.009e6d60@mindspring.com>

At 12:30 PM 8/18/02 +0000, you wrote:
>hal@buffnet.net writes:
>
> >First off, I'd construct a LOT of intelligence scout ships that wait on
> >the outskirts of Zhondani systems within jump distance of Imperial
> >borders.  These scouts would then act as trip wires as they watch for
> >massed fleet build ups.
>
>Bear in mind that if the scout ships are registered to the IN or IISS,
>the Consulate would be perfectly justified in considering this to be
>an act of war - and if they're civilian ships, they're spying and the
>crews are presumably liable to execution if caught...  If the Imperium
>_wants_ to provoke a war with the Consulate, this seems a good way of
>going about it.

Of course there will be freighters owned by shell companies that have very 
large antenna arrays on both sides.  Both sides know these are ELINT 
vessels, and practise spoofing them.

What if the Zhodani conduct regular fleet exercises, and twice a year
>for 10 years 100 ships appear in that border system?  How will the
>scouts (and their Naval Intelligence handlers) know that _this_ time,
>it's for real?  How long can you stay at war alert status?

Based on NATO/WP relations, it is normal to announce that large excericses 
are being planned, and invite observers from either the other side or a 
neutral nation.  So when the Imperium runs RAPID RECALL 1104, there will be 
a handful of official Zhodani observers making sure this isn't an invasion 
fleet.

>For that matter, what if the Zhodani fleet assembles at an uncharted
>star or a fuel dump in deep space?

Things like this keep admirals awake at night.

Remember that the first news we had of the 5FW was a Zho fleet appearing at 
Ruie.  And we only knew that because a detached duty scout happened to be 
in system with the fuel to jump.  Even so, the ship was battle 
damaged.  Had that ship *not* been on site, the first sighting would have 
been when the perfidious Zhodani broke jump in Regina!

-- 

Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.
gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Author of GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces
Geek Code: tc tm tn- t4-- tg++$ ru ge+ 3i+@ c+
            jt- au pi he+ as+ so-                           



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 11:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Aug 18 10:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <m3hehtt33p.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817092651.009de420@mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020817092651.009de420@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020818095237.009e16a0@mindspring.com>

At 06:36 PM 8/17/02 -0600, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
> >
> > 4.5 wars in 500+ years.  By your logic we should *immediately* nuke
> > Germany.  They've started two devastating wars in the last 100
> > years.  Remember that to the average Imperial citizen before 1107,
> > the Frontier Wars were either history or that joke of a war that
> > happened 20 years ago.
>
>But history moves more slowly in Traveller than it does IRL.  Just as
>a rule of thumb, let's assume that the one-week travel time is
>equivalent to the time it'd take to cross two average modern US
>states--for the sake of argument, let's assume that's six hours.  That
>means that time and travel in the Imperium are slowed down by a factor
>of 1/28, s.t. those 500 years are about 18 years.

Sorry, but I don't buy this.  Even with the longer life spans you get in 
the far future, the 1st and 2nd wars are as remote as the English Civil War 
is to us.  Example:  My great-grandfather fought in the Boer War.  I have 
his medals, and the book made of the collected newsletters produced by the 
besieged British troops at Ladysmith.  Other than that, the war means 
nothing to me.

News travels slowly, but even in the days before the X-Boat service, the 
Emperor would hear about the wars in several months at worst.  Hence the 
reliance on local noblility and commanders.  To the people of the Marches, 
it has been 500 years.  I imagine the people of the trailing areas could 
care less about brush-fire wars on the far edge of the Imperium.  On the 
Solomani Rim?  Ha!  They'll tell those provencial idiots something about 
real wars!

>And if Mexico had invaded & freed several counties of Texas, New
>Mexico & Arizona five times in the last twenty years, I'm fairly
>certain that we'd be contemplating elimination of the problem.

Except it wasn't twenty years.  It was 500.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 11:16:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug 18 10:16:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Rockheads
Message-ID: <14c.129ff25d.2a91303f@aol.com>

>>     It is my belief that the uwp could be improved upon.
>

Not to sound catty, but my prefered way to improve upon the *format* of the 
UWP is through a format expansion technique already part of Traveller. This 
ancient and arcane technique is called Library Data.

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 11:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sun Aug 18 10:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Names of Tigresses
In-Reply-To: <3D5EDD0D.11267.151AECC@localhost>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208180340140.16440-100000@ask.diku.dk>
 <20020818011804.24991.62249.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020818122125.00af4a70@minn.net>

At 11:32 PM 8/17/2002 -0500, Shadowcat wrote:
>I'd at least use the "Grumman Cats"
>Tigercat
>Wildcat
>Bearcat
>Tomcat

I could use these names for the "Batch 2" series of Tigresses.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 11:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun Aug 18 10:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] View before eating
Message-ID: <F258spDKicUbvBDxroC000103e6@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     My apologies for AGAIN mixing personal e-mail with the List's business. 
  Fortunately, thanks to Mr. Glenn's superb List management efforts, all of 
you spared a color photo of yours' truly in swimming togs. (shudder)


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 12:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun Aug 18 11:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Names of Tigresses
Message-ID: <F128bLYluLCTaogxLDp000000ce@hotmail.com>

From: Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>

     "I had a look through the Encyclopedia Brittanica and found some names 
for Tigress Class Dreadna/oughts. Not nearly enough (if there are 17-18 
8-ship Tigress BatRons, then there are about 140 Tigresses), but you may 
find them useful. IMO the more euphonious names would have been used first."


Mr. Rancke-Madsen,

     Along with shanghaing the female name of every large hunting "cat" in 
the Imperium, how about simply appending the name of a major (hi-pop or 
otherwise significant) world to the vessel in question?
     Thus, we'd have a Regina Tigress, a Mora Tigress, a Glisten Tigress, 
etc.  Vessels built to operate within certain sectors would use system names 
from that sector.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 12:21:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Sun Aug 18 11:21:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <3d5e36c8.6019642@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <4EC81CD0-B2D7-11D6-A6C4-000502884755@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

On Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 05:09 AM, Stephen Tempest wrote:

> (Of course the crews might grumble a little, but introduce a few of
> the disciplinary policies from the Age of Sail as well and they'll
> soon settle down...)

Not if the officers want to sleep at night.

First: Sailors in the Age of Sail were often kidnapped into service, and 
forced to remain in service for indeterminate amounts of time. (Read 
some Hornblower for background) It has been generally accepted that you 
can treat slaves however the heck you want, jets remember to keep one 
eye on 'em at all times.

Second. Sailors in the age of sail were there because, despite the name, 
this was more appropriately, "The Age of Only Slightly Less Muscle Power 
Required Than The Age Of Rowed Galleys".

Most sailors were there because they we unskilled labor, hauling lines, 
muscling cannon, or swinging a cutlass...a weapon designed to be 
effective in untrained hands...

This is not the case with a TL-16 warship; hell, it's not the case with 
a TL-8 warship.  You don't keep smart, technically trained people around 
by treating them like livestock.

Thirdly, inciting mutiny amongst crews armed with truncheons, cutlasses 
and perhaps muskets is one thing.

Inciting mutiny amongst crews armed with gauss rifles, nuclear warheads 
and spinal meson mounts are another.

--
Bruce Johnson

Wherever you go, there you are.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 12:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug 18 11:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Zhodani Frontier War Philosophy
Message-ID: <34.2bf4eb97.2a91406f@aol.com>

 >> Lenin said regarding the overthrow of the west: "Probe with
 >> bayonets.  Where you find steel, withdraw.  Where you find mush,
 >> continue."  I think the Zhodani are taking that statement one better
 >> and attempting to create mush.
 >
 >Lenin lost.

Actually, Lenin himself was successful.  Even so, taking your point -- if 
someone loses, do you think that that means that everything they said and did 
is invalid or untrue?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 12:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sun Aug 18 11:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Names of Tigresses
In-Reply-To: <20020818155103.20925.7938.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208182027520.4627-100000@ask.diku.dk>

"Shadowcat" <res053z0@gten.net> writes:

>I'd at least use the "Grumman Cats"
>Tigercat
>Wildcat
>Bearcat
>Tomcat
>
>his royal furry magnifence Lord Fafrhd, votes for Coon Cat to be
>included, and demand another 500 chihuhuas as tribute for the
>slight if its not included

Tiger Tabby
Wild Tabby
Bear Tabby
Tabby
Coon Tabby

Hmm...

No, it just doesn't sound like _Tigress_ class names to me. YMM,
obviously, V.



Hans





From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 12:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Sun Aug 18 11:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Vilani Chess
In-Reply-To: <118.15eaa552.2a906bbd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <D9EBAC44-B2D9-11D6-A6C4-000502884755@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

On Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 08:17 PM, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

>> Well, Nine Man Morris is pretty darned old. And it's both simple and a
>> bear to get *good* at.
>
> 5,000 years in the future, the Vilani have probably conflated it into 
> "Nine
> Man Morris Dancing" . . .
>
> Or perhaps not   :  )
>
>
> I don't want to spend a huge amount of time on this kind of thing, but 
> people
> have been asking what games have survived, and I wanted to deal with a 
> couple
> in GT: Nobles.

Go, for one, and other 'capturing' games: chess, checkers, seem pretty 
basic game forms.

Also, most human societies have developed some form of game like Awele, 
or Mancala.  There have been some truly ancient game boards for those 
type of games found.

Backgammon, and even Parcheesi is a plausible variant of the same game: 
Move groups of counters around from place to place in response to some 
random event. You could stretch that to include Monopoly.

--
Bruce Johnson

Wherever you go, there you are.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 12:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sun Aug 18 11:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
References: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFGENIDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk> <m3y9b4syby.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <3D5FEB9A.E19387C7@mindspring.com>

"Robert Uhl " wrote:
> 
> "Peter Scarrott" <peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
> >
> > To expand on someone else's earlier comment (sorry hit 'delete' too
> > fast), the Consulate's main advantage is not having a large Empire
> > on any of it's other borders (ISTR).  Of all the large interstellar
> > governments we know about the Imperium is the only one with more
> > than one major neighbour.
> 
> I've ever assumed that it's just that we view the Far Future from the
> 3I's viewpoint, and that other empires live on the edges of the
> Imperium's neighbours.
> 
> > This would allow it to concentrate a sizeable proportion of its
> > armed forces against any Imperial attack; the Imperium can't reply
> > in kind due to the necessity of keeping large forces against the
> > Aslan, Solomani and too a lesser extent, against the Hivers, K'Kree
> > and Vargr.
> 
> That's one of the reasons I take the view I do.  It's a rather unfair
> and unrealistic view that the Imperium is the only polity which must
> deal with others.
> 
> --

IIRC the 6 major races (5 if you kick out the Aslan)theory takes care of
this. No other politys have FTL,(I can't recall why. Probably something
to do with Grandfather.) therefore are limited to
Bussards/Lightsails/Ion drive, etc.... Therefore no multisector empires
to worry about... If you believe in the six major races theory. YMMV. 

-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute.
That's relativity.
                               -Albert Einstein

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 12:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Sun Aug 18 11:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Zhodani tech development (Was: Victory in the Frontier Wars)
In-Reply-To: <3d61913b.4611769@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <15E48862-B2DC-11D6-A6C4-000502884755@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

On Sunday, August 18, 2002, at 05:30 AM, Stephen Tempest wrote:

> Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
>
>> No. At some point around -1000 they just decided to put a moratotium on
>> further expansion while they consolidated their present holdings. Since
>> then they haven't expanded much. Just why it would take them more than
>> 2000 years to consolidate is not explained anywhere.
>
> Because colonising new planets demands people who are individualistic,
> independent, rugged, and capable of being both ruthless and selfish
> when their survival demands it?

Only in RAH fantasies.

We've got no clue in how such "new planets" will be colonized.

We know that here on Terra 'new' lands were colonized by "people who are 
individualistic, independent, rugged, and capable of being both ruthless 
and selfish" because, in general, they were stealing the land from the 
people who were already there.
This tends to be an activity that attracts certain types of 
personalities.

Fundamentally you're dealing with a situation that we have zero 
experience with.

Certainly a world where people are restricted to habitats will not look 
for such people...they're likely to be a far greater threat than people 
who look to communal ways of solving problems.
>

> --
Bruce Johnson

Wherever you go, there you are.


--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/enriched
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 13:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moreton)
Date: Sun Aug 18 12:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
References: <4EC81CD0-B2D7-11D6-A6C4-000502884755@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <004501c246eb$7bb7d7e0$18130050@amoreton>

> Not if the officers want to sleep at night.
>
> First: Sailors in the Age of Sail were often kidnapped into service, and
> forced to remain in service for indeterminate amounts of time. (Read
> some Hornblower for background) It has been generally accepted that you
> can treat slaves however the heck you want, jets remember to keep one
> eye on 'em at all times.
>
> Second. Sailors in the age of sail were there because, despite the name,
> this was more appropriately, "The Age of Only Slightly Less Muscle Power
> Required Than The Age Of Rowed Galleys".
>
> Most sailors were there because they we unskilled labor, hauling lines,
> muscling cannon, or swinging a cutlass...a weapon designed to be
> effective in untrained hands...
>
> This is not the case with a TL-16 warship; hell, it's not the case with
> a TL-8 warship.  You don't keep smart, technically trained people around
> by treating them like livestock.
>
> Thirdly, inciting mutiny amongst crews armed with truncheons, cutlasses
> and perhaps muskets is one thing.
>
> Inciting mutiny amongst crews armed with gauss rifles, nuclear warheads
> and spinal meson mounts are another.

In the Royal Navy  conscription only occurred during wartime (of course much
of the for most of the time in the late 18th century and until 1815 was a
near constant state of war) , I have seen studies that suggests that most of
the press-ganging occurred only amongst sailors and was seen as something of
a risk of the trade , cetainly most people probably viewed it as no worse
than the current practice of conscription into the military practiced in
many nations today (France and Germany , America until recently Britain
between 1940 and the early 60's).
The Discipline onboard a warship while Harsh by modern standards was not all
that different form that in merhant vessels, the Army or civialian life
flogging and Hangings where accepted punishments as where even more brutal
punishments.
Mutinies where actually rather rare , there where two fleetwide mutinies
during the napoleonic wars by British seamen whch can be compared with a
modern strike as they where largely aimed at pay and conditions. There was
little violence in either and many of the demands in the first mutiny where
met by the admiralty .
The more typicaly imagined mutiny involving the killing of officers and the
like happaned rarely and was usualy caused by an officer who was
exceptionally cruel, capricous and sometimes insane . I am not aware of any
serious mutiny onboard a Royal Navy ship of the line but I beleive there
where a couple on Frigates and several on smaller sloops etc (such as the
HMS Bounty).
I qould agree that most of the crew on a sailing ship where unskilled ,
however many where highly skilled , it takes a fair amount of skill and
training to work the sails and lines of a sailing ship particualrly in bad
weather or under fire. Even those crew who where not particularly skilled at
line handling etc had important jobs and duties manning the cannon in
action. Evidence from the period shows that well trained and discuplined
crews (such as the British) would defeat larger and more powerful ships with
less well trained crews (spanish and French ).

On the final point I assume that the crew of most ships in the traveller
universe are routinely unarmed as they where in the age of sail as there is
no need to issue weapons unless the crew needs them for a boarding action or
similar


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 13:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sun Aug 18 12:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
References: <10e.15e6248e.2a911dc0@cs.com>
Message-ID: <3D5FF21B.18FDE29D@mindspring.com>

Damage169@cs.com wrote:
> 
> babyduck@mindspring.com writes:
> > Of
> > course its J3 M6 and heavily armed with a PA bay and the Whipsnade
> > configurable turrets.
> >
> 
> Apparently I missed this reengineering of turrets. Could someone please
> review this online, or at least point me toward a site with this information?
> Thank you
> 
> Doug Grimes
> 

LEW posited a system whereby turrets could be configured on the fly into
batteries for greater firepower on a single target or split into many
batteries to engage more targets. Or the way I thought they worked
before I carefully read the rules.
IMMTU they are available at TL12. In addition to the software required
to configure at will I charge
100 kw, 0.125 kl, 0.1 tons, 200 kCr per turret so equipped. The IN and
Navies of other powers have this standard.


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute.
That's relativity.
                               -Albert Einstein

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 13:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Aug 18 12:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817174119.009e28e0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEHFEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

So how do the areas occupied by the Zhodoni to support the core expeditions
fit into this?

I don't doubt that you are right Doug, I'm just asking what its based on.
Where does it say that the Consulate consists of 10 sectors? Is this GM
information or is it in game information.

IN other words: How much does the Imperium know about the Core Expeditions?
How engaged is the Consulate in the depot worlds it must be maintaining to
support the expeditions? Is it annexing any of these areas?

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Douglas Berry
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2002 8:43 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets

At 08:22 PM 8/17/02 -0400, you wrote:
>This discussion seems to assume that the Consulate is smaller than the
>Imperium. I don't think that is true. I'm not sure how far it extends
>Spinward, but areas explored by the Consulate go very far coreward. Since
>they are supporting exploration in this direction and considering the
>logistics necessary for such travel they must have worlds extending very
>deeply toward the rim. It seems to me that the Consolate must cover many
>more sectors than the Imperium.

According the canon, the Consulate is smaller than the Imperium, covering
about ten sectors all told.


--

Duugirashir Irebamenagiin  gridlore@mindspring.com
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
     http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
Inquisitor Maximus, Reformed Canon Church of Sylea


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 13:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug 18 12:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Names of Tigresses
Message-ID: <f9.20de776a.2a9153f4@aol.com>

In a message dated 18/08/02 16:42:46 GMT Daylight Time, res053z0@gten.net 
writes:


I'd at least use the "Grumman Cats"
Tigercat
Wildcat
Bearcat
Tomcat

his royal furry magnifence Lord Fafrhd, votes for Coon Cat to be 
included, and demand another 500 chihuhuas as tribute for the 
slight if its not included


>>>>>>>>>>>>

Sorry to introduce an element of PC into this but I would feel deeply 
uncomfortable using "coon" as part of a ship name. While I'm aware that in 
the US it is a contraction of racoon, in the UK it is used as an insult 
directed at black people and belongs in the dustbin of history.

Apologise to Fafhrd for me :)

Charles

"All of us are creatures of a day; the rememberer and remembered alike"

Marcus Aurelius, Mediations IV/35

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 14:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun Aug 18 13:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Victory in the Frontier Wars
Message-ID: <F1328gRzpPWywCP6K8C00000fa3@hotmail.com>

From: Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>

     "Note that some people (me for one) believe that given the canonical 
description of the size, funding, and organization of Aslan _ihatei_ and 
Vargr corsairs, the effect described in MT is completely, utterly, 
willing-suspension-of-disbelief-shatteringly implausible."


Sir,

     While it would most likely not gain you additional adherents, you can 
count me in on that viewpoint.  The MT Alien Incursions are wildly absurd, 
so much so that I believe they invalidate everything that flows from them; 
specifically the condition of the Domain of Deneb throughout the Rebellion 
and Viral Era and generally the entire TNE timeline.
     I specifically joined the TNE Yahoo group in an effort to learn how 
they "explained" away the Incursions and learned nothing new.  They either 
ignored the implausible and absurd nature of the Incursions or presented 
circular arguments in their defense.
     As far as I am concerned, the Rebellion and Viral eras should be 
"oxbowed", designated an OTU alternate timeline, and SJG's No-Assassination 
timeline should become the official one.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 14:09:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Aug 18 13:09:51 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <3D5FEB9A.E19387C7@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNIEHGEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

This may be because there really are no "Major" races. The Vilani got Jump
Drive from Ancient artifacts found in their system after they achieved space
flight. The Terrans developed theirs from the Vegan trader that crashed in
New Mexico in the 1950's. We already know where the Aslan got theirs. The
Hivers found a variant design made by one of Grandfathers children. Etc.

This being the case as the Zhodani penetrate the core they might find that
there are no worlds which possess Jump drive, and that all, as you said in
your post. This would make our little corner of the galaxy unique.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost



IIRC the 6 major races (5 if you kick out the Aslan)theory takes care of
this. No other politys have FTL,(I can't recall why. Probably something
to do with Grandfather.) therefore are limited to
Bussards/Lightsails/Ion drive, etc.... Therefore no multisector empires
to worry about... If you believe in the six major races theory. YMMV.

--
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute.
That's relativity.
                               -Albert Einstein
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 14:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Sun Aug 18 13:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <20020818190006.10026.33198.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentr
 al.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020818220356.00a094d0@mail.pi.se>

>From: alan spik <babyduck@mindspring.com>
>
> > Tell me, if I came up to you and insisted that Sweden was a threat to our
> > way of life, what would you say?
> >
>
>
>Nuke em till they glow. I think there's a magazine article in that. :o

Charming.

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 14:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Sun Aug 18 13:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Damned Silly Questions
In-Reply-To: <20020818155103.20925.7938.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentra
 l.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020818130914.00b39360@mailhost.efn.org>

I'm going to make a guess that perhaps the in-joke Ms. Bates had in 
mind/hoped to make was based on the "randy" or 
"strutting/arrogant/maverick" connotations of Tomcat.  Unfortunately, the 
whole point is that those are traditionally male qualities... so even if 
they are present in a female of the species, they will not be implied in 
something as esoteric and old-fashioned as animal gender names.


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 14:16:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Sun Aug 18 13:16:10 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <20020818190006.10026.33198.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentr
 al.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020818220356.00a094d0@mail.pi.se>

>From: alan spik <babyduck@mindspring.com>
>
> > Tell me, if I came up to you and insisted that Sweden was a threat to our
> > way of life, what would you say?
> >
>
>
>Nuke em till they glow. I think there's a magazine article in that. :o

Charming.

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 15:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sun Aug 18 14:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Answering the Damned Silly Questions
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020818130914.00b39360@mailhost.efn.org>
References: <20020818155103.20925.7938.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentra l.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020818160902.00af3b20@minn.net>

At 01:14 PM 8/18/2002 -0700, Kelly St.Clair wrote:
>I'm going to make a guess that perhaps the in-joke Ms. Bates had in 
>mind/hoped to make was based on the "randy" or 
>"strutting/arrogant/maverick" connotations of Tomcat.  Unfortunately, the 
>whole point is that those are traditionally male qualities... so even if 
>they are present in a female of the species, they will not be implied in 
>something as esoteric and old-fashioned as animal gender names.

The young lady that I based the character of "Lisa Holland" and I went to
the same schools for about ten years.

The schools were:

Holland Elementary
Sheridan Junior High.
Edison Senior High

The sports teams at Edison High were called the Tommies. "Lisa" was Captain
of the cheerleading squad.

"Lisa" also had four sisters.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 16:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Aug 18 15:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Victory in the Frontier Wars
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208180610130.24162-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEHIEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

I'm not really an adherent of the MT/TNE timeline but might not the
perception that lots of free (that is undefended) land now available in the
Imperium maybe cause the Aslan to ratchet up their support of ihatei fleets,
so as to unload a large number of unlanded males. So too could not the
corsairs see easy pickin's that might make them more bold. Lack of active
defense by the Imperial Fleets, who were to busy fighting each other to
interfere would make matters worse.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Hans Henrik
Rancke-Madsen
Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 12:15 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Re: Victory in the Frontier Wars

David P. Summers writes:
>At 3:13 PM -0700 8/16/02, Douglas R Glatz wrote:
>>Referring to the MT/TNE timeline, when the rebellion kicks off, the
Solomani,
>>the Vargr and the Aslan all cross Imperial borders and take territory.
While
>>there is no coordination in these actions, it is obvious that there *was*
the
>>military forces, and contingency plans, in place to take these actions in
>>reaction to a change in the status quo.
>
>This is "sort" of like it.  Except the Zhos never get into it and the
>Vargr and Aslan just start going unorganized raiding (though that has
>an effect)

Note that some people (me for one) believe that given the canonical
description of the size, funding, and organization of Aslan _ihatei_ and
Vargr corsairs, the effect described in MT is completely, utterly,
willing-suspension-of-disbelief-shatteringly implausible.



Hans

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TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 16:17:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Aug 18 15:17:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Zhodani Frontier War Philosophy
In-Reply-To: <15b.12b1d880.2a90e424@aol.com>
References: <15b.12b1d880.2a90e424@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3elcvq0c2.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

CHam628781@aol.com writes:
> 
> Forced collectivisation of land and centrally planned economics
> didn't really take off until 1928 under Stalin.  I humbly suggest
> that your opprobrium should be directed at Comrade Stalin, who was,
> IMHO, a much bigger bastard than Lenin.

Oh, they were both bastards.  Lenin was responsible for the deaths of
the Royal Martyrs, Stalin for the deaths of millions.  I _believe_
that the greatest persecution of Christians was under Lenin, but I
could be wrong; it's been quite awhile since I've studied the subject.

> I would also suggest that you avoid declaring Russia free until at
> least a hundred years have passed, it is too early yet to know how
> the dice will fall.

Point taken.  I'm fairly confident that it will not revert to
Communism, though.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Politicians and nappies should both be changed at regular intervals, and
for exactly the same reason.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 16:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Houghton)
Date: Sun Aug 18 15:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Lasers and sound
In-Reply-To: <200208170434.MYF00163@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208170434.MYF00163@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020818222310.GB19235@saltmine.radix.net>

Howdy!

On Sat, Aug 17, 2002 at 12:34:22AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
[snip interesting description]

> They seem to imply that the weapon is completely silent in 
> operation and effect, and the ideal weapon for close air 
> support.  The package was apparently demonstrated to SOCOM in 
> 1999.
> 
> But no sound -- 

<MARVIN>
Where's the Ka-Boom?
</MARVIN>

yours,
Michael
-- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 16:25:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Aug 18 15:25:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <4EC81CD0-B2D7-11D6-A6C4-000502884755@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <4EC81CD0-B2D7-11D6-A6C4-000502884755@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <m3adnjq00z.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:
> 
> Thirdly, inciting mutiny amongst crews armed with truncheons,
> cutlasses and perhaps muskets is one thing.
> 
> Inciting mutiny amongst crews armed with gauss rifles, nuclear
> warheads and spinal meson mounts are another.

LOL...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The cubic inch (1ci = 16.387cc) has been the traditional displacement
measurement of choice because 409 sounds better than 6702 in a song
(has there been a UK or European pop song about a sports car engine?).
                                                    --Peter Barrett

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 16:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sun Aug 18 15:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <3D60407A.27103.29B41BB@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817205659.009e5cb0@mindspring.com>
 <3D60407A.27103.29B41BB@localhost>
Message-ID: <m365y7pzyh.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> writes:
> 
> Sir, you obviously fail to understand the importance of maintaining
> the K'kree.  Not only are they an excellant distraction for the
> perfidious Hivers, but they are excellant with mint sauce.

LOL:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
So Microsoft's invented the ASCII equivalent to ugly ink spots that
appear on your letter when your pen is malfunctioning.
        --Greg Andrews, about Microsoft's way to encode apostrophes

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 16:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Houghton)
Date: Sun Aug 18 15:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: getting rid of a body
In-Reply-To: <20805.142332.0S0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <200207311718.LTT06680@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <20805.142332.0S0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020818223504.GC19235@saltmine.radix.net>

Howdy!

On Mon, Aug 05, 2002 at 02:23:32PM -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
[snip stuff RE DC]
> Of course not. The residents can't vote. 
> 
> Or did they at least get *local* elections a while back?
> 
The residents have no voice in congress, just as residents of US 
Territories (like Puerto Rico, etc.) don't, but none of the compensating
benefits (such as relief from some taxation).

DC did get "home rule" some time back, but is still expected to provide
services one would expect of a state as well as those of a city with half
(at least a big chunk) of the land that could yield tax revenue under
federal control and thus untaxable, and a congress that likes to use DC
as its whipping boy for their special interests.

yours,
Michael
-- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 16:37:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Aug 18 15:37:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:Vilani Chess
In-Reply-To: <105.1a46b452.2a8c3ed3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNIEHJEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

Too bad. It would probably sell, at least as well as many of the Warehouse
23 small run properties.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of GDWGAMES@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 7:17 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Re:Vilani Chess

>One thing.  Change "poker chip" to some Vilani word for token

I'm assuming the actual pieces will have the citadel/rook constructed so the
Shadow-Emperor/king fits inside it or on top somehow. The poker chip thing
was just a temporary expedient.

Killing rumors before they start: Nobody at SJ Games knows of this besides
me
(unless they read the TML), so there are NO plans to actually produce this
game.

LKW
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 16:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Aug 18 15:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
In-Reply-To: <19d.71c6b86.2a8f276b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D60CD56.26512.203400@localhost>

On 17 Aug 2002 at 0:13, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> "The enemy is always peaceloving.  He would prefer to take our territory 
> unopposed."  Clauswitz.  But I would oppose them.

Well if you've read Clauswitz you'll also be aware that defence is 
stronger than attack.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 17:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Aug 18 16:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Damned Silly Questions
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020817091336.00a8d100@minn.net>
References: <3D5D8AAD.4507.237C6E@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D60CFCC.20856.29CDCB@localhost>

On 17 Aug 2002 at 9:13, Leslie Bates wrote:

> 
> I need to name a TIGRESS class dreadnought for parts 5 and 6 of Friends in
> High Places.
> 
> Is there a feminine form of tomcat? If so, what is it?

How about "Moggie". Actually it's "Queen" in cat breeding circles.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 17:02:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Aug 18 16:02:21 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <16b.124568c1.2a8f29fe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D60CFCC.23183.29CE07@localhost>

On 17 Aug 2002 at 0:24, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>  >All for a quixoic attempt to start a war 
>  >that nobody wants?
> 
> As everyone will recall, it is the Zhodani that are already starting wars 
> that nobody wants.

Wrong - they want them (in a limited and controlled way).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 17:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Aug 18 16:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817092651.009de420@mindspring.com>
References: <16b.124568c1.2a8f29fe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D60D187.26809.3093B1@localhost>

On 17 Aug 2002 at 9:30, Douglas Berry wrote:

> Tell me, if I came up to you and insisted that Sweden was a threat to our 
> way of life, what would you say?

"Are you a Russian?" of course.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 17:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Aug 18 16:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economics
In-Reply-To: <90.2a95b775.2a909c11@aol.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEHKEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

I've got to say that GURPS Traveller books, even with their possible
problems, are really the best sources of Traveller material available. As
good (or bad) as MT or TNE or T4 material might be it is simply not readily
available at this time to most. The number of copies are limited and as my
FLGS owner told me, "basically I only get that stuff when someone pries it
out of the owners cold dead hand or the spouse sells it off after the
divorce."

That being the case try to realize that quoting a book like Pocket Empires,
as a source is somewhat problematic. First it's T4 material, which is
generally considered to be rather poorly put together by many Traveller
players. Second it models the early Imperium so like Trillion Credit
Squadrons may not be said to accurately reflect the later Imperium, which is
after all a full millennium in the future of the period described. Thirdly
it is not available for direct research by many here, so if used as a source
your post might be better if it included a sizable quote of the relevant
material.

It was my original impression that Thrash, MacLean and Daniels did a good
job on Far Trader. Recent posts here have begun to convince me that perhaps
a certain amount of tweaking should be done to make trade in Core regions of
the Imperium higher while maintaining published levels in the frontier.
Since number from FT are used extensively in Starports (and I would assume
in Starships) I'm wonder how this would affect the designs in those books. I
suppose at the most it would merely mean that larger or more starport
facilities were needed for Core worlds, while the present numbers would
suffice for frontier regions.

Anyone want to do a Variant article for JTAS on this? That would at least
give us a common baseline for an alternate to the published GT materials.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 17:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 18 16:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Autodocs are starting to appear
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020818193057.015d0ad8@mail.charter.net>

http://www.lstat.com/

The Life Support for Trauma and Transport (LSTAT) is an individualized 
portable intensive care system and surgical platform providing 
resuscitation and stabilization capability through an integrated suite of 
state-of-the-art medical devices. It is a system solution to the need to 
decrease mortality, morbidity and disability by moving trauma care farther 
forward toward the site of an injury for improved diagnostics and 
therapeutics throughout the evacuation and treatment process. This same 
philosophy applies to both the military and the civilian community: provide 
early and continuous life support and sustainment throughout the continuum 
of care.

The third generation LSTAT, Model 9602, features a ventilator, suction, 
oxygen system, infusion pump, physiological monitor, clinical blood 
analyzer, and defibrillator. These medical devices are complemented with a 
fully network-capable on-board computer monitoring system and standalone 
power system all packaged together in the NATO litter form factor.

------------------------------------------------

TL 8?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
A well-educated electorate being necessary to the
prosperity of a free state, the right of the people to
keep and read books, shall not be infringed.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 17:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sun Aug 18 16:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Zhodani Frontier War Philosophy
In-Reply-To: <m38z35t2ks.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEHLEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

I don't think that the Imperium refuses to psionically adept individuals. I
believe that the Imperium's citizenry distrusts psionically gifted
individuals, and perhaps even the Imperial government's use of psionically
gifted individuals.

The 3I is not the modern western world, but it seems to share a lot of that
world's traits, one of those traits being the right to have a fighting
chance of doing something wrong and not getting caught. That means farmer
Joe doesn't want a psi reading his mind and telling his customer he's got
his hand on the scale, or Mrs. Maole doesn't want a psi reading her mind and
telling her husband about her little fling with the neighbor.

Worse if I'm miserable at my job then I don't want some mind raping psi
messing with my head so that I'm actually happy with what I'm doing. It's my
right to be miserable.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Robert Uhl
<ruhl@4dv.net>
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2002 8:48 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Zhodani Frontier War Philosophy

"Terry Carlino" <carlino@cox.net> writes:
>
> Could it be possible that the Zhodani are playing a waiting game?
> They might assume that eventually natural evolution will cause
> psionics to become a large enough percentage of the Imperium's
> population to force a reversal of the Imperium's policy on psionics
> (after all psionics weren't always banned).

That raises the whole issue of the Imperium's outlook on psionics.
I'm not certain that it makes a whole lot of sense, to tell the truth,
esp. when there's a violent neighbour who uses them.  We didn't stop
make nukes just because they were dangerous (although there were
plenty of halfwits who argued for it); why would the Imperium not
utilise psionically-apt individuals?

--
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The betterment of fools, Goethe tells us, is the appropriate business of
other fools.  The Underground Grammarian does not seek to educate
anyone.  We intend rather to ridicule, humiliate, and infuriate those
who abuse our language not so that they will do better but so that they
will stop using language entirely or at least go away.
                         --The Underground Grammarian
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 17:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Aug 18 16:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <m3wuqorbc7.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817205659.009e5cb0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3D60DD68.10572.5EF951@localhost>

On 17 Aug 2002 at 23:21, Robert Uhl wrote:

> And would hopefully end in the utter extermination of the K'kree (the
> vegetarians, anywa--I understand the Hivers had some success in
> modifying their disease).  I loathe the K'kree.  The Zhodani may be
> annoying, the Hivers may be a nuisance, the Vargr may be a pest, must
> the K'kree must be destroyed.

I'm neutral on this, pending more intelligence on what they taste like.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 18:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Sun Aug 18 17:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: All Good Things...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020718120832.00a26960@minn.net>
Message-ID: <000201c24714$b7c90dc0$6401a8c0@GOCA>

To the person inquiring about the All Good Things thread - I have them
all, if you wish I could save/zip/email then to you.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Leslie Bates
Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 10:09
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: All Good Things...




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 18:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sun Aug 18 17:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Armed Merchant STORMBRINGER
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020818193057.015d0ad8@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020818191529.00af59d0@minn.net>

Ship: Stormbringer
Class: Stormbringer
Type: Armed Merchant
Architect: Leslie Bates
Tech Level: 15


AM-01143  STORMBRINGER  AF-2223321-000000-50000-0 MCr 93.830 200 Tons
   Batteries Bearing                     1       Crew: 5
   Batteries                             1       TL: 15

Cargo: 55. Passengers: 5 Fuel: 46. EP: 6. Agility: 0
Craft: 1 x 4T Air/Raft
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Architects Fee: MCr 0.932   Cost in Quantity: MCr 75.184

Detailed Description

HULL		200 tons standard, 2,800 cubic meters, Cone Configuration
CREW		Pilot, Engineer, Steward, Medic, Gunner
ENGINEERING	Jump-2, 3G Manuever, Power plant-3, 6 EP, Agility 0
AVIONICS	Bridge, Model/2 Computer
HARDPOINTS	2 Hardpoints
ARMAMENT	2 Triple Beam Laser Turrets organised into 1 Battery (Factor-5)
CRAFT		1 x 4 ton Air/Raft (Cost of MCr 0.600)
FUEL		46 Tons Fuel (2 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant
MISCELLANEOUS	10 Staterooms, 5 High Passengers, 55 Tons Cargo
COST		MCr 94.162 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 0.932), 
MCr 74.584 in Quantity, plus MCr 0.600 of Carried Craft
CONSTRUCTION TIME	57 Weeks Singly, 46 Weeks in Quantity
COMMENTS	TL-15 Armed and Fast Merchant, Mentioned in an episode of Friends
in High Places

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 18:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Aug 18 17:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Victory in the Frontier Wars
In-Reply-To: <F1328gRzpPWywCP6K8C00000fa3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D60E4E9.20601.7C4928@localhost>

On 18 Aug 2002 at 20:07, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

> Sir,
> 
>      While it would most likely not gain you additional adherents, you can 
> count me in on that viewpoint.  The MT Alien Incursions are wildly absurd, 
> so much so that I believe they invalidate everything that flows from them; 
> specifically the condition of the Domain of Deneb throughout the Rebellion 
> and Viral Era and generally the entire TNE timeline.
>      I specifically joined the TNE Yahoo group in an effort to learn how 
> they "explained" away the Incursions and learned nothing new.  They either 
> ignored the implausible and absurd nature of the Incursions or presented 
> circular arguments in their defense.
>      As far as I am concerned, the Rebellion and Viral eras should be 
> "oxbowed", designated an OTU alternate timeline, and SJG's No-Assassination 
> timeline should become the official one.

My take has always been that the 'incursions' into the Spinward Marches 
never happened (not the way MT has them, anyway). Corridor was cut off, 
not by corsairs, but by a real invasion by a coalition of Vargr states 
and warlords. Of course the coalition would've fallen apart fairly 
soon, but by then Virus had been released. As the cutting of Corridor 
only occurred to leave the Spinward Marches free for 'CT' style play in 
MT and TNE I don't see this as being that big a deal as my interest in 
TNE has always been centred on pocket empires and the Reformation 
Coalition.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 18:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sun Aug 18 17:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Rockheads
In-Reply-To: <20020818190006.10026.33198.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020818190006.10026.33198.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <vhf0mucaoffgth7o7jvk941jrll88rklca@4ax.com>

On Sun, 18 Aug 2002 12:00:06 -0700, GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:

>>>     It is my belief that the uwp could be improved upon.

>Not to sound catty, but my prefered way to improve upon the *format* of the 
>UWP is through a format expansion technique already part of Traveller. This 
>ancient and arcane technique is called Library Data.

Not to mention the alternative ways of encoding additional UWP data, as
found in the DGP World Builders' Handbook, and the Extending the UWP series
of articles in Doing It My Way at Freelance Traveller.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 19:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sun Aug 18 18:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNIEHGEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <3D60493F.BFDEC531@mindspring.com>

Terry Carlino wrote:
> 
> This may be because there really are no "Major" races. The Vilani got Jump
> Drive from Ancient artifacts found in their system after they achieved space
> flight.

Canon or alt.conspiricies.vilani

>The Terrans developed theirs from the Vegan trader that crashed in
> New Mexico in the 1950's. 

Canon or alt.conspiricies? ;)

> We already know where the Aslan got theirs. The
> Hivers found a variant design made by one of Grandfathers children. Etc.
> 
> This being the case as the Zhodani penetrate the core they might find that
> there are no worlds which possess Jump drive, and that all, as you said in
> your post. This would make our little corner of the galaxy unique.
> 
> Terry C
> All that is Gold does not glitter
> Not all who travel are lost
> 
> IIRC the 6 major races (5 if you kick out the Aslan)theory takes care of
> this. No other politys have FTL,(I can't recall why. Probably something
> to do with Grandfather.) therefore are limited to
> Bussards/Lightsails/Ion drive, etc.... Therefore no multisector empires
> to worry about... If you believe in the six major races theory. YMMV.
> 
> --

-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute.
That's relativity.
                               -Albert Einstein

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 19:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sun Aug 18 18:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
References: <5.1.1.6.0.20020818220356.00a094d0@mail.pi.se>
Message-ID: <3D604A05.40490B28@mindspring.com>

Tyge Sjstrand wrote:
> 
> >From: alan spik <babyduck@mindspring.com>
> >
> > > Tell me, if I came up to you and insisted that Sweden was a threat to our
> > > way of life, what would you say?
> > >
> >

Sorry, forgot tags. This is why I don't get paid for my computer skills.

<tounge_in_cheek>Nuke em till they glow.</tounge_in_cheek> I think
there's a magazine article in that. :o
> 
> Charming.
> 
> /Tyge
> 



-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute.
That's relativity.
                               -Albert Einstein

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 20:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Sun Aug 18 19:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <20020818033255.89A672793A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020819021101.34955.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Eris Reddoch <erisred@telocity.com> wrote:
> On 08/17/02 at 12:27 PM,  alan spik
> <babyduck@mindspring.com> said:
> 
> >No hot bunking except in emergencies.
> 
> I'd like to point out that if you have gravity
> control, you don't have
> to have "bunks", containment webbing will do. Stack
> 'em up like
> cordwood! <g>

While I wouldn't deny the legitimate gripes of those
who have spent lengthy time on a sailing vessel, I am
surprised that no one has mentioned the fact that the
crew onboard a starship doesn't have a deck to visit. 
There is something to be said to being able to go
"above" and have the open sky above you that you can't
do on a starship.  Still, you need to have a certain
amount of "personal" space, but the open deck is
something.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 21:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sun Aug 18 20:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
References: <20020819021101.34955.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3D606207.25436D6B@mindspring.com>

Paul Walker wrote:
> 
> --- Eris Reddoch <erisred@telocity.com> wrote:
> > On 08/17/02 at 12:27 PM,  alan spik
> > <babyduck@mindspring.com> said:
> >
> > >No hot bunking except in emergencies.
> >
> > I'd like to point out that if you have gravity
> > control, you don't have
> > to have "bunks", containment webbing will do. Stack
> > 'em up like
> > cordwood! <g>
> 
> While I wouldn't deny the legitimate gripes of those
> who have spent lengthy time on a sailing vessel, I am
> surprised that no one has mentioned the fact that the
> crew onboard a starship doesn't have a deck to visit.
> There is something to be said to being able to go
> "above" and have the open sky above you that you can't
> do on a starship.  Still, you need to have a certain
> amount of "personal" space, but the open deck is
> something.
> 
> Paul
> 
>

This is true. My most enjoyable time underway was when I was able to
take in the scenery. Perhaps there are  wall screens on the mess deck,
given the TL they could reproduce almost anything with great
verisimilitude. I think frequent shore leave would be as good. A week in
port, almost any port, would last several months. I was never able to
partake in swim call as we were a "U.S. Naval Warship" and didn't have
time for such frivolous things. But I recall a story where floating at
the end of a tether in freefall was used as a way of stress relief.
Perhaps not all spacers would enjoy this. Not everyone wanted swim call.


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour.
Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute.
That's relativity.
                               -Albert Einstein

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 23:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Sun Aug 18 22:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Human Nature or 'WWRD' or 'WWAD'
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020818090531.02500c00@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKECIENAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Note that the IISS is subject to mobilisation in times of war (possibly
other times as well) and scout squadrons are placed under navy control (a
fate worse than death for a freedom loving scout!) Given the combat value of
most scout vessels they are likely to get all sorts of "interesting"
missions. Then the question arises, given scout intelligence sources do they
have their Kokirrak class battleships sent on five year expeditions when
they believe war is coming?

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Hal
Sent: Sunday, 18 August 2002 9:16 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Human Nature or 'WWRD' or 'WWAD'


Hello Stephen,




>Bear in mind that if the scout ships are registered to the IN or IISS,
>the Consulate would be perfectly justified in considering this to be
>an act of war - and if they're civilian ships, they're spying and the
>crews are presumably liable to execution if caught...  If the Imperium
>_wants_ to provoke a war with the Consulate, this seems a good way of
>going about it.

of course it would be espionage.  Point is?  They have to *catch* the
ships.  And the crews would be intel types or Scouts to begin with.  As it
is, IISS is NOT a military outfit - it is a civilian branch of stellar
survey activities.  ;)



> > If a system has only 24 system defense boats (all
> >likely trying to hunt down the scouts by the way) in it, and suddenly has
> >100 warships in it and needs to refuel for its push into Imperial
> >territory - wouldn't that be a sign for the Imperials to start moving
over
> >to war alert status?
>
>What if the Zhodani conduct regular fleet exercises, and twice a year
>for 10 years 100 ships appear in that border system?  How will the
>scouts (and their Naval Intelligence handlers) know that _this_ time,
>it's for real?  How long can you stay at war alert status?
>
>For that matter, what if the Zhodani fleet assembles at an uncharted
>star or a fuel dump in deep space?


For the military manuevers part - they need supplies to be transported.  A
fleet without transports isn't much of a threat.  A fleet with transports
is a threat.  As for the deep space fuel depots?  That is a definite issue.
;)


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 23:53:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Sun Aug 18 22:53:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Tech Levelling
In-Reply-To: <3d608f28.4080772@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPGECIENAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

A few years back we also exported enough steel into the USA to have a
whopping big tariff slapped on further imports. We also export information
(read inventions created here then sold off overseas).

Oh yes we also export troops (I read somewhere that more of our combat ready
troops are overseas than at home.)

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Stephen Tempest
Sent: Sunday, 18 August 2002 8:31 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Tech Levelling


Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com> writes:

>
>And what _does_ Australia export?  And to where?  I don't see very much of
>anything that has 'Made in Australia' on it...
>
Off the top of my head, I'd say wool, mutton, and minerals.  Oh, and
beer.  And daytime soap operas.  And Kylie Minogue.

Having looked it up, I see that I can add beef and wheat to that list,
and that Australia in 1990 exported about $40b from a GNP of $240b
(17%), mostly to Japan (27%) and the US (11%).

Stephen
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 18 23:54:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Sun Aug 18 22:54:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Names of Tigresses
In-Reply-To: <F128bLYluLCTaogxLDp000000ce@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPIECIENAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Based on the names of the Kinunir class the most likely deployment for a
ship called Regina Crouching Tiger or Glisten Pantheress would be Terra.
After all the Kinunirs are named for worlds in the Solomani Rim and based in
the Spinward Marches.

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Larsen E. Whipsnade
Sent: Monday, 19 August 2002 2:01 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Names of Tigresses


From: Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>

     "I had a look through the Encyclopedia Brittanica and found some names
for Tigress Class Dreadna/oughts. Not nearly enough (if there are 17-18
8-ship Tigress BatRons, then there are about 140 Tigresses), but you may
find them useful. IMO the more euphonious names would have been used first."


Mr. Rancke-Madsen,

     Along with shanghaing the female name of every large hunting "cat" in
the Imperium, how about simply appending the name of a major (hi-pop or
otherwise significant) world to the vessel in question?
     Thus, we'd have a Regina Tigress, a Mora Tigress, a Glisten Tigress,
etc.  Vessels built to operate within certain sectors would use system names
from that sector.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
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_______________________________________________
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TML@travellercentral.com
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 01:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Mon Aug 19 00:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <m3lm75t3fa.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFMEOLDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

Thank you for this (and Eris who mailed me offlist); I had realised that it
was baseball and figured some stuff from that after reading the more recent
posts.

I used the original post on my players at the weekend, telling them it was a
piece of intel gathered from the ruins they are investigating.  Basically it
was the only translated text they had managed.  the players are now heading
out towards first contact with this as their only clue to the psycology of
the species.  I have to say that it is amazing to see where they have taken
the info; no-one has mentioned sport yet and they are all a flutter planning
out how they are going to deal with this alien race.

Man I love Traveller and the TML this little post has started an entire new
arc of my campaign (Hell as always the players ideas of what this means are
soooo much more fun than mine.  :)

BTW They have somehow decided that Barry Bonds is a war leader or codeword
for a warship or warplan.


> -----Original Message-----
> On Behalf Of Robert Uhl
> <ruhl@4dv.net>

> "Peter Scarrott" <peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
> >
> > All kidding aside I am truly baffled.  I take it on faith that
> > someone (Barry Bonds I guess) has achieved an impressive sporting
> > milestone, for which I congratulate him, but I still don't have the
> > faintest idea what the conversation was about.
>
> He exceeded some heretofore unexceeded number of home runs.  A home
> run is when in baseball one is able to hit the ball and run around the
> diamond (square-shaped baseball track) back to home plate (the spot
> from which one hits the ball) without having to stop.  It's accounted
> a Good Thing.
>
 -  -  Big snip - - - -  -

Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.
I need to remember details like that, until we get to know each other
better.  Some men get so nervous if a lady shows up at the restaurant with a
box of explosives. - Florence, www.purrsia.com/Freefall , 7th Dec 2001


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 03:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Mon Aug 19 02:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : Autodocs are starting to appear
Message-ID: <000001c24763$e9360080$7b9d67cb@robert>

Mark Urbin wrote (of a nifty transport system):-
> TL 8?

Only the blood analyzer (if it does more than blood gases) and computer
hardware (the PDA interface and network capabilities look nifty).

The other components are TL 7 or late 6, using the US space program as 
a yardstick.

It looks like there's space for multiple infusion pumps.

This would allow you to perform surgery under continuous IV anaesthesia
(TIVA). Kewl.

The big advantage this system has is that most of the necessary hardware
is
mounted on the stretcher.

The big disadvantage is that it may be a little too big for some of the
helicopters used in retrieval work.


Robert O'Connor
Medico, gamer


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 04:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Aug 19 03:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : Autodocs are starting to appear
In-Reply-To: <000001c24763$e9360080$7b9d67cb@robert>
References: <000001c24763$e9360080$7b9d67cb@robert>
Message-ID: <20020819121048.065f0788.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Mon, 19 Aug 2002 19:36:35 +1000
Robert O'Connor <robocon@ozemail.com.au> wrote:

> This would allow you to perform surgery under continuous IV
> anaesthesia(TIVA). Kewl.
> 
> The big advantage this system has is that most of the necessary
> hardware is
> mounted on the stretcher.

I get the strangest images of a surgeon running beside the stretcher as
it is rushed away to the transport...

But seriously...

At what TL would one expect to see automated emergency surgeons? I'm
thinking something along the lines of the boxes used in
http://www.schlockmercenary.com

A box, roughly a large coffin. Put a person into it, and the most
threatening wounds are taken care of. The box acts as respirator,
surgeon, and diagnostic system.

Off course the capabilities of such a box would depend on the TL, but
when would they start to appear?

And when would they be able as fixed pieces of a building or starship? I
guess one TL earlier. That concept makes for some interesting scenarios,
like the sole survivor of some catastrophe managing to crawl into the
box and pass out there, escaping almost certain death.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 04:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon Aug 19 03:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] [www] 18 Aug 2002 - Freelance Traveller Updated
Message-ID: <m5j1mu8ku1br271boe30u7ki2itjc9pkpn@4ax.com>

Freelance Traveller, the Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource has
posted its most recent update to http://www.freelancetraveller.com,
and http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller, and our mirror at
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller.

In this update:

 - Minor link fixups have been made throughout the site. 

 - The Prologue and first part of Leslie Bates's serial story, Friends In
   High Places, can be found in Raconteur's Rest. 

 - Leslie Bates also brings the Cobra-class Close Escort to the Shipyard. 

 - Ken Pick returns to the Shipyard with the Fram, Burke, and Foible-class
   Destroyers and Variants. 

 - We didn't get to put in as big an update as originally planned. More to
   come, real soon. 

Your questions, comments, and ideas are always welcome at Freelance
Traveller.  Please write to editor@freelancetraveller.com with any and all
of them, or use the feedback form at .../infocenter/feedbackform.html.
Freelance Traveller depends on the good will of Traveller fans both to
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 06:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Mon Aug 19 05:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
In-Reply-To: <3D60CD56.26512.203400@localhost>
References: <19d.71c6b86.2a8f276b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D618968.23102.CCFF86@localhost>

On 19 Aug 2002, at 10:49, Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> On 17 Aug 2002 at 0:13, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> > "The enemy is always peaceloving.  He would prefer to take our territory
> > unopposed."  Clauswitz.  But I would oppose them.

> Well if you've read Clauswitz you'll also be aware that defence is 
> stronger than attack.

My one page summary of Clauswitz also tells me that you can't win a war 
on the defensive.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 06:15:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Mon Aug 19 05:15:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Damned Silly Questions
In-Reply-To: <3D60CFCC.20856.29CDCB@localhost>
References: <3.0.6.32.20020817091336.00a8d100@minn.net>
Message-ID: <3D618968.26532.CCFF86@localhost>

On 19 Aug 2002, at 11:00, Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> On 17 Aug 2002 at 9:13, Leslie Bates wrote:

> > Is there a feminine form of tomcat? If so, what is it?

> How about "Moggie". Actually it's "Queen" in cat breeding circles.

Yes, I can see the scene now. The sector admiral has just been informed 
of the name allocated to the latest dreadnaught to be assigned to his 
command.

"Leuitenant, I don't care how historicially accurate it is or how 
eyntomologically correct it is. We are NOT going to call the pride of the 
Sector fleet "Moggie"!


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 06:16:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Mon Aug 19 05:16:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Zhodani tech development (Was: Victory in the Frontier Wars)
In-Reply-To: <15E48862-B2DC-11D6-A6C4-000502884755@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <3d61913b.4611769@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3D618968.15874.CCFF7C@localhost>

On 18 Aug 2002, at 11:55, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> We've got no clue in how such "new planets" will be colonized.

> We know that here on Terra 'new' lands were colonized by "people who are
> individualistic, independent, rugged, and capable of being both ruthless
> and selfish" because, in general, they were stealing the land from the
> people who were already there. This tends to be an activity that attracts
> certain types of personalities. 

> Fundamentally you're dealing with a situation that we have zero 
> experience with.

Not quite. In historical times we have do one example (and AFAIK its the 
only example) of a large previously uninhabited land coming under human 
colonisation; New Zealand. The first human colonisation only began around 
800 years ago.

From what we've been able to reconstruct from archeology and the oral 
traditions of the Maori, the primary requirement of colonisation was not the 
"rugged individualist" but tightly knit cooperative communities (one might 
also mention the mass extinction of over 50% of native species and the 
total destruction of our megafauna, but one may assume that future 
interstellar colonists would be somewhat more environmentally aware).


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 06:22:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Mon Aug 19 05:22:04 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <F161G4yBt9tmFbklhaD000073a8@hotmail.com>

Earlier this month I had the pleasure of a day-trip to
the Cape Fear, North Carolina area.  I heartily recommend
the aquarium at Fort Fisher, and the historical site at
the remaining portions of the fort itself was a good
visit as well.  However, the best part of the trip
was about four hours spent exploring the battleship
USS North Carolina in Wilmington, NC.

They've done a great job on the ship, opening up
large areas of it to a self-guided tour.  I probably
could have spent a whole day there.

Now, here's the part of the experience that made
me think of the TML: the experience of moving
around inside a large ship, and what it made me
think of in terms of starship design, deckplans
and role-playing.

Large-scale structures made quite an impression -
structures that existed right through the ship,
the division of decks superimposed upon them
rather than the other way around.  Weapon mounts
that were armored towers reaching from the keel to
the top deck.  Machinery rooms with huge engines,
wire mesh decking stretching here and there from hull
to multi-story boilers and turbines.

In the gun director room there was a small ladder
running up a bulkhead.  Above, a hatch the size
of a small pizza opened into a thin tube that
stretched to another hatch some six decks above - access
to wiring runs between the gun director room and
the sensor arrays high above the waterline, and
a tenuous emergency escape route.

Multiple control and information spaces, scattered
(it seemed) all over the ship.  One of the "bridges"
(the Conning Tower) was a cramped compartment wrapped
in 16 inches of armor.  Other control spaces were
right in with what was controlled - you could steer
the ship, if you had to, from either the port or
the starboard rudder control rooms, with nothing
more than a string of guys shouting headings back
to you from the bow.

Crewmen sometimes were quartered in their workspaces.
Some ship's shops had "business hours", and would be
closed and quiet at other times - the crewmen who
worked there could fold down their racks from the
bulkhead and sleep in relative peace.

No such thing as a passageway, if possible.  Yes,
this long, narrow space connects point A to point B,
but it isn't a passageway, it's the Port Casualty
Power Room (where cables and connections are available
to reroute power in case of damage).  Any large public
area (mess decks especially) will double as passageways.

Things that are only used in port.  The museum people had
set up a "Wishing Well" in one of the mess decks - a large
hatch in a corner was open, they'd put a grating over it
so you could look down through other open hatches all
the way to the keel.  Above your head, connecting to
the main deck above, was another large hatch.  When
at sea, these hatches were sealed and probably ignored.
When in port, these hatches were used to move powder
and shells to magazines deep within the hull.  There
were also dockside power connections that were (of course)
port-use only, and different procedures for seaplane
launch if they were sitting in port instead of under way.

The feeling of closeness.  My younger son got a little
scared part-way through the tour, as daylight was so
far away, and there were a lot of stretches where your
line of sight was ten feet or less.  The heavily armored
areas (turrets, and the aforementioned Conning Tower)
were positively claustrophobic, of course.

They had a set of drawers in the museum area, each one
with the plans for a deck of the ship - I would have
loved to get a copy, being a deckplans afficionado.

I'm sure there are military people on this list who
have spent months or years under the decks of large
ships, and could add to this if they'd like to...I
just wanted to share some impressions from a person
taking their first real tour of the innards of a very
large warship.  The ObTrav struck me while I was there,
thinking of what the innards of space stations and
battlecruisers might be like.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 06:39:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Houghton)
Date: Mon Aug 19 05:39:04 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <F161G4yBt9tmFbklhaD000073a8@hotmail.com>
References: <F161G4yBt9tmFbklhaD000073a8@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020819123853.GA8753@saltmine.radix.net>

Howdy!

Another ship I'd like to visit is the New Jersey, tied up on the Camden
waterfront near the Ben Franklin bridge and across the river from
the Olympia. I'm told that the tour is self-guided and the ship is
pretty open.

Here in DC, we have the USS Barry, a retired destroyer that has Vietnam
service ribbons among its honors (along with Cuban blockade service).
The tour is also self guided, but rather linear. Still, the same kinds
of space constraints Walt noted on the North Carolina are evident. 

yours,
Michael

-- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 07:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Aug 19 06:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The Frontier Wars; The other side of the hill
Message-ID: <F202lQ0zSp8XVOEOEVX0000e78a@hotmail.com>

From: Flykiller@aol.com

    "Were there any who didn't?  I suppose the Vargr and the Aslans consider 
themselves to be content with _their_ borders -- not to mention the Zhodani 
themselves, who have been absorbing Imperial worlds for 500 years now."


Sir,

    Well, 500 years ago (the 600's), the Zho's absorbed Imperial colonies in 
regions they considered their own.  Roughly 200 years ago (the late 900s) 
they ensured that certain worlds were released from the Imperium, but have 
made no (overt) moves to abosrob them.  So I wouldn't exactly say they've 
been "absorbing Imperial worlds for 500 years now".  Sure, it's one way to 
spin the story, but it doesn't hold up upon scrutiny.
    That being said, I'd much rather live in the Imperium than the 
Consulate, my mind is my own thank you very much.  However, when it comes to 
the Frontier Wars I can understand both sides of the issue.
    The Consulate expanded to reach it's present size in roughly -1000 
Imperial.  Every alien module and timeline from CT to GURPS states this.  
The Consulate is at the size that it feels it can control with it's 
particular form of government.  This doesn't mean that the Zhos don't fiddle 
with states beyond their borders to ensure less threatening neighbors, but 
it does infer that they are a satisfied state.  Major land grabs are a part 
of their past.  Besides, any exploration and colonization fervor is 
channeled into the Core Expeditions.
     So, the Zhos had colonies in "cherry-picked" systems in the Spinward 
Marches, Foreven, and Z-something Sectors by -1000.  The Vargr in the area 
could be handled, the Swords were too small and too busy squabbling to be a 
threat, and the Darrians had shot themselves in the foot by -924.  The 
Consulate could look forward to a continued and leisurely and consolidation 
of the regions they had ALREADY claimed and partially settled.
    Then in 60, the Third Imperium shows up.
    Between 60 and 589, Imperial settlers are like mice in the wainscotting. 
  They've set up colonies, bases, outposts, and whatnot throughout the 
Marches and on into Foreven and Z-something.  There's plnety of empty room 
in the Marches, but the Imperials insist on settling in the regions already 
claimed by the Consulate. (Perhaps drawn by the trade opportunities?)
    The varying systems and territories claimed by the two empires actually 
interpenetrate.  When the Consulate begins to insist on it's borders, 
tempers flare.  There are some suggestions that Imperial colonials kicked 
off the First Frontier War, especially in BtC, and their actions drawing 
both empires into conflict.
    Also, don't forget that the Third Imperium isn't rabidly anti-psionic at 
this time.  The Suppressions don't begin until 800.  This fight is simply 
about land, Imperial propagandists most likely haven't invented the term 
"mind raping scum" yet.  The Consulate is watching systems they've claimed 
for over a millenium being squatted on by more and more Imperial settlers.
    Step out of your Imperial boots for a moment and ease into some Zho 
slippers.  You've been in the region for a thousand years, slowly developing 
it and building it according to your needs and plans.  Then some pushy types 
show up, ignore your very presence, and claim the area for their empire.  
What would you do?
    All things considered, the Consualte's response as been extremely 
measured.  If I had been the Chief Turban at the time, I would have been 
tempted hammered the Third Imperium all the way back to Corridor.  The Zho's 
didn't do that, all they did was evict the Imperium from previously claimed 
Consulate territory, start to build a good fence, and then ensure that the 
Imperium stayed on it's side of the border.
    Let me spin a Real World analogy.  It's the mid-1840's on the North 
American continent.  Mexico claims and has sparsely settled quite a bit of 
territory in the west.  US colonists have been drifting into that region for 
decades now, even detaching part of it, Texas, as an independent nation. (a 
new nation that allowed slavery, unlike Mexico)  Now US colonists are 
filtering into California and the Southwest, squabbling with the Mexican 
officials there.  The US government is in the process of absorbing 
independent Texas too.  The writing is on the wall.  What would you do if 
you were Mexican?  What would you do if you were Zhodani?
    Let's take my analogy into the realm of alternate history.  Tweak Mexico 
enough to make it a viable concern and tweak the US enough to weaken it 
sufficiently.  The US annexes Texas and the war kicks off.  The Mexicans 
hold their own, even sending US settlers in California and the Southwest 
packing back to the States.  The poor showing by US forces causes political 
trouble at home.
    Tyler feels he isn't being supported enough (most of the war effort was 
carried by the South as New England and the Old Northwest correctly viewed 
the war as a landgrab by slavers).  Exhausted, he signs a ceasefire with the 
Mexicans, leaving the border essentially unchanged, and accepting the 
eviction of US settlers.  The Mexicans, also exhausted, accept both the 
ceasfire and acquiesce to Texas' admission to the Union... for now.
    Tyler then marches on Washington with his army to confront Polk, shoots 
that President, declares himself President, and is eventually shot in 
return.  The period of the US Barrack Presidents begins.
    Meanwhile, Tyler left a subordinate behind in Texas, one R.E. Lee.  
After a decade or so of civil strife in the States, he decides he must do 
something about it.  Unfortunately, sensing an opportunity in the current US 
Civil War, the Mexicans have returned for a second round.
    Lee fights them to a stalemate, but must cede more territory to Mexico 
as a price for another ceasefire.  (One actual point of contention was where 
Texas' southern border actually lay.  Texas and the US claimed the Rio 
Grande, the Mexicans wanted another, more northern, river.  Lee could cede 
parts of Texas between the Rio Grande and that river.)
    After "winning" the Second Mexican War, Lee marches on Washington, 
beating or absorbing whatever warlords' armies stand in his way, and shoots 
President-For-Life Whipsnade.  Instead of announcing he's the President, Lee 
settles in as the "Protector of the Constitution", gets the federal 
government up and running again, squashes any seperatist movements, and puts 
the Union back together.  After a few years and a census to work out 
congressional proportions, Lee runs for president and is elected in a 
landslide.
    By ~1855, the US' western border is the limit of the 1803 Louisiana 
Purchase plus a smaller Texas.  Mexico is striving to settle and build up 
California and the Southwest, plus looking for a way to ensure a secure and 
steady border with the US.
    To further follow the Frontier Wars model, the next war would detach 
Texas from the US and set it up as one or more independent nations, the 
Mexicans would support the Mormons and their nation in Utah, and there would 
be Mexican-US squabbles over the Oregon Territory (the Mexicans wishing to 
detach Oregon and Washington from the US and set them up as independent 
states, the US wishing to hold onto to those states.  Perhaps the port city 
of Seattle may become an open city like pre-WW2 Danzig or Esalin?)
    Now, keeping my flight of fancy in mind, who absorbed whose territory?  
Did the Zho's take over Imperial colonies, or did they take back their own 
territories, or did they do both of those things?  Who should be griping 
about whom?  Who has the better claim?  Suddenly things aren't so black and 
white anymore, are they?  Rather, it's a pretty muddle of gray.  Binary 
thinking is really boring.
    Before I sign off, I too admire you civility sir.  Even more so, I 
admire the questions and ideas you've presented.  Each one has made the List 
re-examine our own ideas and preconceptions and that is a VERY GOOD THING 
indeed.  Keep posting and keep questioning, sir, that is exactly what makes 
the TML so much fun!


    Sincerely,
    Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 07:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Mon Aug 19 06:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <F28AUfKRfcjcMzfoV1q000001d3@hotmail.com>

>From: "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>
>
>On 08/17/02 at 12:22 PM,  "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@pobox.com> said:
>
> >the way this fellow's accomplishment is being
> >expressed is in such game-related terms that only a devotee of the
> >game can tell what he's done that is noteworthy.
>
>
> >I am a devotee of said game, but I still don't understand the furor.
> >Its just Barry Bonds. Loud mouth and possibly baseball player. Its
> >not like he found a cure for Polio or something.
>
>LOL!
>
>Barry Bonds has never been a "lovable" player, but he has accomplished
>some remarkable feats the last few years, and hitting 600 homeruns in
>a career is an important milestone. I don't begrudge him his feat, or
>Giants fans their celebration.
>
>Eris,
>     baseball fan!

It was a bittersweet day when he left the Pittsburgh Pirates.  It was sweet 
cause he *NEVER* did anything for us in October!  Bitter, cause without him, 
they *NEVER* play in October!

Greg



_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 07:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Aug 19 06:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Tech Levelling
In-Reply-To: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPGECIENAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
References: <3d608f28.4080772@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3D619C05.31658.F4338@localhost>

On 19 Aug 2002 at 13:40, Antony Farrell wrote:

> A few years back we also exported enough steel into the USA to have a
> whopping big tariff slapped on further imports. We also export information
> (read inventions created here then sold off overseas).

Lucky you. We simply get horrid quotas slapped on anything that really 
starts selling well.

Apparently we're a deadly threat to the US steel industry (don't make 
me laugh), beef industry (not likely), lamb industry (they've got one?) 
and dairy industry (quite likely) and the answer is to limit us to a 
few thousand tons of exports to the US per annum. Then wonder why we're 
cynical about US 'free trade' initiatives.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 07:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Aug 19 06:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Victory in the Frontier Wars (was: High Value targets)
In-Reply-To: <3D618968.23102.CCFF86@localhost>
References: <3D60CD56.26512.203400@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D619CE2.10405.12A22D@localhost>

On 20 Aug 2002 at 0:12, Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance wrote:

> On 19 Aug 2002, at 10:49, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> > On 17 Aug 2002 at 0:13, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> 
> > > "The enemy is always peaceloving.  He would prefer to take our territory
> > > unopposed."  Clauswitz.  But I would oppose them.
> 
> > Well if you've read Clauswitz you'll also be aware that defence is 
> > stronger than attack.
> 
> My one page summary of Clauswitz also tells me that you can't win a war 
> on the defensive.

That's not what my translation says - Clauswitz points out that 
Frederick the Great did just that, though he also points out that this 
was probably because the Austrians realised that he'd got to the point 
where he could have switched to the offense.

If you're willing to call a crusade a war quite a number were won by 
the defenders - the crusaders simply ran out of steam.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 07:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Aug 19 06:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <F2159TBbA4Y9Nt16gM40000c7e9@hotmail.com>

From: Michael Houghton <herveus@radix.net>

     "Another ship I'd like to visit is the New Jersey, tied up on the 
Camden waterfront near the Ben Franklin bridge and across the river from
the Olympia."


Mr. Houghton,

     The Olympia is an excellent tour.  IIRC, she was refurbished very 
recently.  I toured her earlier this year during a drive down to Virginia.

     "Here in DC, we have the USS Barry,..."

     There are several wonderful and historical ships open for tours in the 
US.  The USS Texas, the only dreadnought still in existance, is moored in 
the Houstan ship canal.  The remains of a sunken Union river ironclad are on 
display outside of Vicksburg.  Baltimore has the USS Constellation, a Civil 
War era sailing frigate.  Chicago has a WW2 German U-boat.  I'm extremely 
fortunate that Fall River, MA is only minutes away from the Whipsnade family 
manse.  Moored there in Battleship Cove is a BB, USS Massachusetts, a USN 
50's DD, a WW2 USN SS, a USSR missile corvette, and the national PT Boat 
museum.  Also close by is the first SSN, USS Nautilus.
     I suppose the biggest draw will be at Hampton Roads, VA.  The museum 
there has been raising portions of USS Monitor this summer.  The shaft and 
screw were recovered a few years ago, along with other relics.  The engine 
and TURRET!!! were recovered this summer.  Once those items are preserved, 
you'll be able to see the dents CSS Virginia's guns put in USS Monitor's 
turret back in 1862.
     Across the Pond, the UK also has many great vessels open for tours.  I 
especially enjoyed HMS Warrior.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 08:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Houghton)
Date: Mon Aug 19 07:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Autodocs are starting to appear
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020818193057.015d0ad8@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <3D60FA6D.8000304@gmx.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:

> http://www.lstat.com/
>
> The Life Support for Trauma and Transport (LSTAT) is an individualized 
> portable intensive care system and surgical platform providing 
> resuscitation and stabilization capability through an integrated suite 
> of state-of-the-art medical devices. It is a system solution to the 
> need to decrease mortality, morbidity and disability by moving trauma 
> care farther forward toward the site of an injury for improved 
> diagnostics and therapeutics throughout the evacuation and treatment 
> process. This same philosophy applies to both the military and the 
> civilian community: provide early and continuous life support and 
> sustainment throughout the continuum of care.
>
> The third generation LSTAT, Model 9602, features a ventilator, 
> suction, oxygen system, infusion pump, physiological monitor, clinical 
> blood analyzer,

If  this part goes wrong: Vampire LSTAT anyone?

> and defibrillator. These medical devices are complemented with a fully 
> network-capable on-board computer monitoring system and standalone 
> power system all packaged together in the NATO litter form factor.
>
> ------------------------------------------------
>
> TL 8?

"You can get real scared thinking of all the things that can go wrong 
with an Autodoc" ...one of Niven's characters from somewhere in one of 
his books.

-- 
-----------------
Rob Houghton
Sudragon@gmx.net
-----------------


"Bother," said Pooh.  
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes and lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 08:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Aug 19 07:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Tech Levelling
Message-ID: <F231KHRosXmhYkyNkj900002582@hotmail.com>

From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

     "Apparently we're a deadly threat to the US steel industry (don't make 
me laugh), beef industry (not likely), lamb industry (they've got one?) and 
dairy industry (quite likely) and the answer is to limit us to a few 
thousand tons of exports to the US per annum. Then wonder why we're cynical 
about US 'free trade' initiatives."


Mr. Boleyn,

     Surely New Zealand is a member of the WTO?  If so, file a protest with 
that organization and force arbitration.  The US and EU have been clubbing 
each other with WTO rulings, and forcing real changes in trade policies, for 
years now.
     The US opened the "closed" EU banana market (I'm not kidding) by 
overturning an EU ex-European colony banana preference policy.  The EU 
forced the US to drop export supports in the form of tax incentives for 
corporations.  Canada and the US are currently tussling over softwood 
imports, a WTO will eventually settle it.  Even Dubya's steel tariffs are 
working their way up the ladder towards WTO arbitration.
     Sure, it may take time, but every WTO signatory is sworn to abide by 
arbiters' decisions.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 08:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Michael Cessna)
Date: Mon Aug 19 07:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <F2159TBbA4Y9Nt16gM40000c7e9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020819141736.82635.qmail@web11008.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> From: Michael Houghton <herveus@radix.net>
> 
>      "Another ship I'd like to visit is the New
> Jersey, tied up on the 
> Camden waterfront near the Ben Franklin bridge and
> across the river from
> the Olympia."
> 
> 
> Mr. Houghton,
> 
>      The Olympia is an excellent tour.  IIRC, she
> was refurbished very 
> recently.  I toured her earlier this year during a
> drive down to Virginia.
> 
>      "Here in DC, we have the USS Barry,..."
> 
>      There are several wonderful and historical
> ships open for tours in the 
> US.  The USS Texas, the only dreadnought still in
> existance, is moored in 
> the Houstan ship canal.  The remains of a sunken
> Union river ironclad are on 
> display outside of Vicksburg.  Baltimore has the USS
> Constellation, a Civil 
> War era sailing frigate.  Chicago has a WW2 German
> U-boat.  I'm extremely 
> fortunate that Fall River, MA is only minutes away
> from the Whipsnade family 
> manse.  Moored there in Battleship Cove is a BB, USS
> Massachusetts, a USN 
> 50's DD, a WW2 USN SS, a USSR missile corvette, and
> the national PT Boat 
> museum.  Also close by is the first SSN, USS
> Nautilus.
>      I suppose the biggest draw will be at Hampton
> Roads, VA.  The museum 
> there has been raising portions of USS Monitor this
> summer.  The shaft and 
> screw were recovered a few years ago, along with
> other relics.  The engine 
> and TURRET!!! were recovered this summer.  Once
> those items are preserved, 
> you'll be able to see the dents CSS Virginia's guns
> put in USS Monitor's 
> turret back in 1862.
>      Across the Pond, the UK also has many great
> vessels open for tours.  I 
> especially enjoyed HMS Warrior.
> 
> 
>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen
> 
  >>
  Hmmmm.......All of the above pointing to the
existance of a, albeit
distictly-low-tech-yet-there-nonetheless, wet-service
battle squadron; all we need are the tankers.......

  Michael 'Tongue-firmly-in-Cheek' Cessna
  >>
>

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 08:21:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Aug 19 07:21:04 2002
Subject: While we're talking about games was [TML] Vilani Chess
Message-ID: <F228mc90CDW57XEJ8Wv00021b0f@hotmail.com>

From: John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

     "B  Declare Citizen by placing remaining citizen piece on a color 
square on your side the two pieces on board become that color piece for the 
game."


Mr. Lotz,

     Great game, sir!  I've put it together from bits of cardboard already.  
One question though, could you elaborate a bit on the set-up rule I've 
snipped above?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 08:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Aug 19 07:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The cloak
Message-ID: <F229e5b2h6uBq7AbJc500003d28@hotmail.com>

From: "Mark Urbin" <urbin@bigfoot.com>

     "The favorite obsuring garment of the ages.  From knights hiding their 
armor & swords to Kent Allard striking terror in the hearts of evil 
doers...it has been part of popular fiction."

     "How common are they in your Traveller universe?"


Mr. Urbin,

     Playing a little TML Catch-Up here...
     Cloaks are very common in the WTU and the hallmark of ship crew folk.  
Well before TNE's RCES body sleeve, I'd ripped off the same idea from Niven 
and Pournelle's "Mote in God's Eye."  While aboard ship, most crew folk wear 
a near full length, body hugging, pressure suit.  Hands and head are free, 
although the hood and gloves are permanently attached and simply rolled and 
tucked into specific pockets at the wrists and neck.
     Over this form fitting body suit, crew folk wear utility clothing, 
either work tunics and trousers or overalls.  The outer layer of clothing 
protects the skinsuit from wear and tear, besdies providing the wearer with 
pockets.
     Naturally, seeing something shaped like a Whipsnade stuffed into a 
man-sized, lycra-like, sausage casing can be extremely unappealing, thus the 
use of cloaks while off ship.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 08:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug 19 07:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <200208191429.NCQ00397@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Michael Cessna says
>  Hmmmm.......All of the above pointing to the
>existance of a, albeit distictly-low-tech-yet-there-
>nonetheless, wet-service battle squadron; all we need are 
>the tankers.......

As I mentioned before, in the UK it's possible to buy a lot 
of interesting "out of date" items.  If the list could put 
the money together, and get a UK buyer, we could, say, 
purchase a Vulcan bomber.

Quite unlike the US, who puts its aircraft into the desert, 
and chops them up for scrap.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 08:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Aug 19 07:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Old RICE Papers for use as "Landgrabs"
Message-ID: <F55XbR7SsyZ06pCqXLc0000cf31@hotmail.com>

From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au

     "For those interested in claiming worlds for the Landgrab, here is a 
list of worlds that have been documented as RICE Papers - that is, for TNE."


Mr. Jaques-Watson,

     Are these documents available at your fine website or should we ask for 
them directly from you?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 08:35:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Mon Aug 19 07:35:05 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <20020819103209.ac4dd7f1f52e45c684e69acce58c3181.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>     The Olympia is an excellent tour.  IIRC, she was refurbished very 
>recently.  I toured her earlier this year during a drive down to Virginia.

Yeah, they sort of had to otherwise the US Navy would have come back and
taken back the ship.

(I am in the Philadelphia region, so I get to visit not only the OLYMPIA but
also the NEW JERSEY, who has her Phalanx mounts unlike her sisters, AND
drive past the inactive ship facility at what use to be the Philadelphia
Navy Yard.)

PA also has the NIAGARA up at Erie.  Another fine ship.

>     There are several wonderful and historical ships open for tours in the 
>US.  The USS Texas, the only dreadnought still in existance, is moored in 

Technically, the NORTH CAROLINA, the MASSACHUSETTS, the ALABAMA, and IOWAs
count too...

>the Houstan ship canal.  The remains of a sunken Union river ironclad are on 

CAIRO, namesake of the class, and actually the entire ship is in a fine
state.  It was a pity they managed to let CARONDELET get destroyed during
the search for her.

>display outside of Vicksburg.  Baltimore has the USS Constellation, a Civil 
>War era sailing frigate.  Chicago has a WW2 German U-boat.  I'm extremely 

Civil War-era sloop, actually.  Part of the reason why Congress eventually
changed the laws to mandate a vote on appropriations regarding overhaul and
refitting of ships.

There is also an WW2 fleet boat there.

>fortunate that Fall River, MA is only minutes away from the Whipsnade family 
>manse.  Moored there in Battleship Cove is a BB, USS Massachusetts, a USN 
>50's DD, a WW2 USN SS, a USSR missile corvette, and the national PT Boat 
>museum.  Also close by is the first SSN, USS Nautilus.

The Boston Navy Yard at Charlestown also has the CASSIN YOUNG, a
FLETCHER-class destroyer from WW2.  It was closed due to rain when I was
there, but the tour guide who was waiting for the rain to stop was surprised
that one of us actually knew what kind of ship she was.

The heavy cruiser SALEM should also be near where you live.

>     I suppose the biggest draw will be at Hampton Roads, VA.  The museum 
>there has been raising portions of USS Monitor this summer.  The shaft and 
>screw were recovered a few years ago, along with other relics.  The engine 
>and TURRET!!! were recovered this summer.  Once those items are preserved, 
>you'll be able to see the dents CSS Virginia's guns put in USS Monitor's 
>turret back in 1862.

And explain to me how Nauticus managed to get the WISCONSIN moored next to
the building....

>     Across the Pond, the UK also has many great vessels open for tours.  I 
>especially enjoyed HMS Warrior.

If you are in London, you can go visit the BELFAST.  A truly magnificent
example of the light cruiser breed.

C.T.
"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 08:39:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Mon Aug 19 07:39:05 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <20020819103611.03f88f86231c45fdb43c46168bf6017f.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>Michael Cessna says
>>  Hmmmm.......All of the above pointing to the
>>existance of a, albeit distictly-low-tech-yet-there-
>>nonetheless, wet-service battle squadron; all we need are 
>>the tankers.......
>
>As I mentioned before, in the UK it's possible to buy a lot 
>of interesting "out of date" items.  If the list could put 
>the money together, and get a UK buyer, we could, say, 
>purchase a Vulcan bomber.
>
>Quite unlike the US, who puts its aircraft into the desert, 
>and chops them up for scrap.

Yeah, well the US does not have a choice in the disposition of strategic
bombers a la Vulcan.  That is part of SALT and other various arms control
treaties....

Besides, a lot of the aircraft are there until other nations need them,
either whole or parts.  There is no pressing similar need for Nimrod, or
Victor parts.

And look at how the RN is choosing to get rid of the 2 Type 22 frigates it
can not operate...

C.T.
"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 08:52:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Mon Aug 19 07:52:36 2002
Subject: While we're talking about games was [TML] Vilani Chess
In-Reply-To: <F228mc90CDW57XEJ8Wv00021b0f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEACIOAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

From: John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

     "B  Declare Citizen by placing remaining citizen piece on a color
square on your side the two pieces on board become that color piece for the
game."


Mr. Lotz,

     Great game, sir!  I've put it together from bits of cardboard already.
One question though, could you elaborate a bit on the set-up rule I've
snipped above?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

Mr. Whipsnade,

You see on the board the three blocks marked R G Y, the last citizen goes on
the
one of those blocks to let everyone know what the other two citizens are.
After the
citizen is declared, treat the citizens as a piece of the type.

In the history/explanation of Thashirudri I noodled up, this is thought of
as
training up your citizen in one of three professions, a worker, a merchant
or
a corporate specialist.

jml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 08:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon Aug 19 07:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Zhodani tech development (Was: Victory in the Frontier Wars)
In-Reply-To: <3D618968.15874.CCFF7C@localhost>
References: <3d61913b.4611769@post.demon.co.uk>
 <3D618968.15874.CCFF7C@localhost>
Message-ID: <m3ptwerjfd.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> writes:
> 
> In historical times we have do one example (and AFAIK its the only
> example) of a large previously uninhabited land coming under human
> colonisation; New Zealand.  The first human colonisation only began
> around 800 years ago.
> 
> From what we've been able to reconstruct from archeology and the
> oral traditions of the Maori, the primary requirement of
> colonisation was not the "rugged individualist" but tightly knit
> cooperative communities (one might also mention the mass extinction
> of over 50% of native species and the total destruction of our
> megafauna, but one may assume that future interstellar colonists
> would be somewhat more environmentally aware).

What, you mean indigenous peoples aren't gentle stewards of the
environment?  The Thought Police will be by shortly to re-educate
you:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
A horse will usually shy from a plastic bin-liner in a hedge.
I don't know why; maybe tigers used to go around dressed in
bin-liners or something once.              --Dan Holdsworth

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 08:58:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Aug 19 07:58:04 2002
Subject: While we're talking about games was [TML] Vilani Chess
Message-ID: <F234FXfyY0QUUBPcZi7000206dd@hotmail.com>

From: John-Martin <jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

     "You see on the board the three blocks marked R G Y, the last citizen 
goes on the one of those blocks to let everyone know what the other two 
citizens are.  After the citizen is declared, treat the citizens as a piece 
of the type."


Mr. Lotz,

     Oooh, nasty!  I love it!  The citizen pieces on the board morph into 
other pieces at the end of the set-up.  Nice and twisty!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 09:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Mon Aug 19 08:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Help decide Famille Spofulam font >:D
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F167F@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

> He:  Quick Ditzie, to the Spof-cave.  When we are
> needed, the Commissioner will contact us using the 
> Spof-signal.
> 
> jml
> tune in next week when we hear Ditzie say:
> Now kids don't try this at home without lots of 
> of insurance ... real tolerant neighbors help too


ROFLMAO!!!!
Jesse

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 09:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shadowcat)
Date: Mon Aug 19 08:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Names of Tigresses
In-Reply-To: <f9.20de776a.2a9153f4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D5FCE99.1373.1F0F244@localhost>

The Maine coon cat gets its name from the legends that the breed 
originates from the mating of a raccoon with a domestic cat, which 
is genetically impossible, but at the time the name was coined, 
this wasnt even remotely known..

The apology is accepted, and to be quite honest, I find the concept 
of PC to be even more revolting and insulting than anything said 
about the issues involved.  it deserved a grave long ago, and I will 
happily spit upon and dance on it once its finally laid to rest. I feel 
that its an issue of personal accountability for ones own actions, 
and no government has the right to legislate this, beyond things 
like inciting a riot, yelling fire in a crowded theatre.. etc, PC is 
simply censorship, because our government doesnt feel we should 
be allowed as individuals to make conscious decisions about such 
matters.

Fafrhd accepts the apology



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 09:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark A Nordstrand)
Date: Mon Aug 19 08:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
References: <200208191429.NCQ00397@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D611030.FBDE5BD4@visi.com>

Just to add to this list.....

I think the u505 at the Museum of Science and Industry
in Chicago was mentioned.  Along a similar vein, the
Silversides (?) is further up the Lake Michigan coast 
in Muskegeon harbor, and has been constantly 
undergoing restoration.  It's been a few years since
I took the tour, but it was definitely worth the 
time.  My friends in the area inform me there is also
work on a LSV(T), but it may be some time before it
could be toured.

Completely different, and in a completely different
direction, would be the ore ship (sorry, can't 
remember the name) in Duluth, MN (personally I got
geeked about the *huge* locomotive used on the iron
range).  

The ObTrav is obvious, isn't it?

-- 
Mark

Nobody reads these anymore.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 09:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Mon Aug 19 08:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Damned Silly Questions
Message-ID: <E17gosu-0003pg-00@fifi.runbox.com>

> Leslie Bates wrote:
> >=20
> > I need to name a TIGRESS class dreadnought for parts 5 and 6 of Friends=
 in
> > High Places.
> >=20
> > Is there a feminine form of tomcat? If so, what is it?
> >=20
> > Thanks in advance.
> >=20
> > Les
> >=20
> >=20
>=20
> I'm partial to Danger Kitty. ;)
> --=20

Can you imagine the Hello Kitty?  Required ship's uniform includes bow clip=
s for each ear. :)

Beth

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 10:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Mon Aug 19 09:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Never did like the PFSloan class...
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F1682@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Picture update - Just posted a couple of excerpts from the latest BITS cover I did.  You can find the links here:
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_news.htm

I'm particularly fond of the Sloan getting wasted >;)

Enjoy,
Jesse

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 10:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Mon Aug 19 09:17:02 2002
Subject: Vulcan bits - was RE: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of t
 he beast (long)
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F1683@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

> As I mentioned before, in the UK it's possible to buy a lot 
> of interesting "out of date" items.  If the list could put 
> the money together, and get a UK buyer, we could, say, 
> purchase a Vulcan bomber.

If we DO purchase a Vulcan bomber (or anyone on the list has one ;) I need to pour a silicone mold of the control stick.  It was used in the film "Aliens", and I could easily sell copies to prop collectors :D

Jesse

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 10:19:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Mon Aug 19 09:19:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Damned Silly Questions
In-Reply-To: <E17gosu-0003pg-00@fifi.runbox.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHKEAGIOAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>


> Leslie Bates wrote:
> >
> > I need to name a TIGRESS class dreadnought for parts 5 and 6 of Friends
in
> > High Places.
> >
> > Is there a feminine form of tomcat? If so, what is it?
> >
> > Thanks in advance.
> >
> > Les
> >
> >
>
> I'm partial to Danger Kitty. ;)
> --

Can you imagine the Hello Kitty?  Required ship's uniform includes bow clips
for each ear. :)

Beth

>>>>>>>>>>>>

If we are going to do anime how about the Neko-ken ...  or the Shampoo.


jml
     "The Neko-Ken is a fearsome, almost unstoppable technique.

     The Neko-Ken in a hardsuit is just plain ludicrous.

     Fred barely teleported away alive."

Girl Days by Kenko




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 10:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon Aug 19 09:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Damned Silly Questions
In-Reply-To: <E17gosu-0003pg-00@fifi.runbox.com>
Message-ID: <20020819162004.13695.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Beth <shylady69@runbox.com> wrote:
> 
> Can you imagine the Hello Kitty?  Required ship's
> uniform includes bow clips for each ear. :)
> 
> Beth

Some lines were never meant to be crossed!  This is
one of them. :o

<shudder>

Paul


__________________________________________________
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HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 10:28:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Aug 19 09:28:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Never did like the PFSloan class...
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F1682@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F1682@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <20020819182648.1a294517.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Mon, 19 Aug 2002 09:07:45 -0700
"DeGraff, Jesse" <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> wrote:

> I'm particularly fond of the Sloan getting wasted >;)

Rather hollow and well-recognized comments at this time, but...

Nice  :-)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 10:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon Aug 19 09:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <F28AUfKRfcjcMzfoV1q000001d3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020819164357.6AD112793A@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/19/02 at 01:26 PM,  "Andrew MacLintock"
<a_maclintock@hotmail.com> said:

>>Barry Bonds has never been a "lovable" player, but he has accomplished
>>some remarkable feats the last few years, and hitting 600 homeruns in
>>a career is an important milestone. I don't begrudge him his feat, or
>>Giants fans their celebration.
>>
>>Eris,
>>     baseball fan!

>It was a bittersweet day when he left the Pittsburgh Pirates.  It was
>sweet  cause he *NEVER* did anything for us in October!  Bitter,
>cause without him,  they *NEVER* play in October!

LOL!  I've often thought he *belonged* on the Houston Astros, a larger
collection of October busts you've never seen...or, and Larson I do
apologize for this, on the Red Sox so he could raise their hopes only
to confirm their October Flopdom once again.  Long live, The Curse of
the Bambino! <g>

On to another sport, one that Captain Jason Wright of the /Nomad
Ranger/ assures me survived into the 53rd century...golf.  Did anyone
see Tiger Woods *almost* lose it yesterday...he was charging down the
back nine pursuing Beem and Leonard, then looks up from his putt and
sees that Beem has moved to -10, and then 3 putts! To his credit he
sucked it up and birdied the last 4 holes, to get with in 2 shots and
keep the pressure on Beem. Wasn't it amazing how Beem *didn't* fold?
I'm not much of a golfing enthusist, but that was an interesting
closing 9...and there wasn't any baseball on the tv to lure me away.
<g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 10:55:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon Aug 19 09:55:09 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <F2159TBbA4Y9Nt16gM40000c7e9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020819165435.1DFB3279BB@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/19/02 at 01:57 PM,  "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
<grote1731@hotmail.com> said:

>     There are several wonderful and historical ships open for tours
>in the  US.  The USS Texas, the only dreadnought still in existance,
>is moored in  the Houstan ship canal.  The remains of a sunken Union
>river ironclad are on  display outside of Vicksburg.  Baltimore has
>the USS Constellation, a Civil  War era sailing frigate.  Chicago has
>a WW2 German U-boat.  I'm extremely  fortunate that Fall River, MA is
>only minutes away from the Whipsnade family  manse.  Moored there in
>Battleship Cove is a BB, USS Massachusetts, a USN  50's DD, a WW2 USN
>SS, a USSR missile corvette, and the national PT Boat  museum.  Also
>close by is the first SSN, USS Nautilus.

To your list, let me add the USS Alabama in Mobile Bay. I toured her
several years ago, and it left quite an impression on me.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 10:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Aug 19 09:58:03 2002
Subject: Vargr vs K'Kree (was RE: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value
 targets)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817205659.009e5cb0@mindspring.com>
References: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFGENIDFAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020817205659.009e5cb0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <p04330102b986d319888f@[143.232.119.186]>

At 9:04 PM -0700 8/17/02, Douglas Berry wrote:
>>The K'kree have the Hivers and the Imperium. Personally, I'm in favor
>>of Vargr movement coreward of the Imperium toward K'kree space. Those
>>two species should mix "interestingly", to say the least. But that's
>>just something I'd toss into the mix IMTU.
>
>A K'kree/Vargr war would be epic, to say the least.

If you look at the map, there is an enclave accross the rift where 
the two meet.  I've wondered about that but little has been said (I 
think I got Dave Pulver to add some comment on it in GT AR1).  I'm 
guessing, based on what I've heard, is that you see sporadic 
skirmishing/raiding at this point in time.  But presumably that 
settled down from more active warfare when they first met..
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 11:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Mon Aug 19 10:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <E17gpyW-00047R-00@fifi.runbox.com>

There is also Patroit's Point in Charleston SC.  The USS Yorktown, a Coast =
Guard cutter and a diesel sub (both names escape me) and some other things =
as well.  Well worth it if you are there.

Beth

>      "Another ship I'd like to visit is the New Jersey, tied up on the=20
> Camden waterfront near the Ben Franklin bridge and across the river from
> the Olympia."
>=20
>=20
> Mr. Houghton,
>=20
>      The Olympia is an excellent tour.  IIRC, she was refurbished very=20
> recently.  I toured her earlier this year during a drive down to Virginia.
>=20
>      "Here in DC, we have the USS Barry,..."
>=20
>      There are several wonderful and historical ships open for tours in t=
he=20
> US.  The USS Texas, the only dreadnought still in existance, is moored in=
=20
> the Houstan ship canal.  The remains of a sunken Union river ironclad are=
 on=20
> display outside of Vicksburg.  Baltimore has the USS Constellation, a Civ=
il=20
> War era sailing frigate.  Chicago has a WW2 German U-boat.  I'm extremely=
=20
> fortunate that Fall River, MA is only minutes away from the Whipsnade fam=
ily=20
> manse.  Moored there in Battleship Cove is a BB, USS Massachusetts, a USN=
=20
> 50's DD, a WW2 USN SS, a USSR missile corvette, and the national PT Boat=
=20
> museum.  Also close by is the first SSN, USS Nautilus.
>      I suppose the biggest draw will be at Hampton Roads, VA.  The museum=
=20
> there has been raising portions of USS Monitor this summer.  The shaft an=
d=20
> screw were recovered a few years ago, along with other relics.  The engin=
e=20
> and TURRET!!! were recovered this summer.  Once those items are preserved=
,=20
> you'll be able to see the dents CSS Virginia's guns put in USS Monitor's=
=20
> turret back in 1862.
>      Across the Pond, the UK also has many great vessels open for tours. =
 I=20
> especially enjoyed HMS Warrior.
>=20
>=20
>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen
>=20
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:=20
> http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>=20

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 11:08:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 19 10:08:16 2002
Subject: Author Ego-Boo (was: Re: RE: [TML] OTU is out of wack.)
Message-ID: <e1c08ee1e846.e1e846e1c08e@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Date: Friday, August 16, 2002 9:06 pm
Subject: RE: [TML] OTU is out of wack.

> At 01:43 PM 8/16/02 -0400, you wrote:
> >I have Ground Forces and ACQ.  Haven't really started on
> >Ground Forces, but I've already marked up ACQ...
> 
> Woo Hoo!
> 
> >And hey, I bought the books (which means an author get
> >something, hopefully), and I get to play my way....
> 
> Nothing for ACQ except that deep thrill of someone reading your 
> work and 
> not forming a lynch mob.  For Ground Forces I get roughly 27 cents 
> a copy.

As for me, even though I only submitted three corps (and some feedback 
in developing the Universal Corporate Profile) for _101 Corporations_, I 
felt some of that same deep thrill when the book came out.  Especially 
when I noted that _101 Corps_ was at the top of the Warehouse 23 best 
seller list for a couple of months.  Plus, I did get paid in kind; a 
comp copy with a nice letter from the folks at BITS.  That one stays in 
the mailing envelope....

As an added bonus for me, _101 Corps_ gave me a chance to have AuricTech 
Shipyards and the shipping firm "Sweet-Carroll Lines" enshrined in 
print.... ;-)




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 11:09:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug 19 10:09:33 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <3D5DB9A8.C279CE28@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029776800.1327.ajackson@ping>

alan spik writes:
> 
> And in the poor countries they build TL ~1 to 3 boats.

Actually, they build cheap boats.  There's a reason I specified the slightly
higher TL, however; it's really only those goods that require a significant
manufacturing base that won't be produced.

The basic problem is that improvements in tech level often result in goods
where the increase in functionality is greater than the increase in cost, in
which case the lower-tech good disappears entirely.  How often do you see
armies buying up longbows, lances, and platemail?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 11:12:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug 19 10:12:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <3D5DC954.9040808@usisp.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029777046.457.ajackson@ping>

richard honeycutt writes:

>     It is my opinion that tech level should be a measure of what the 
> world is capable of
> manufacturing on its own without outside influence.

In which case all Lo-pop worlds would be TL 5-, which is not the case in the
OTU.  Also violates canon that suggests that worlds are dependent on trade to
maintain their tech level.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 11:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Aug 19 10:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Shifting fleets in Traveller Universe
In-Reply-To: <4627.64.8.3.28.1029648770.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <ML-2.3.1029540496.4803.ajackson@ping>
 <p04330102b984cb573203@[143.232.119.186]>
 <4627.64.8.3.28.1029648770.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <p04330103b986d83dbe2f@[143.232.119.186]>

At 1:32 AM -0400 8/18/02, hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>I seem to recall in IMPERIUM, where the govenor had to send ships out of
>his sector at the Emperor's whim.  Other than that, I've not recalled
>seeing anything regarding a fleet from a specific sector being moved from
>one location to another.

The only wars where this level of detail we discussed, that I know 
of, are the interstellar wars, the fifth frontier war, and the 
rebellion.

Interstellar wars; Fleets were eventually shifted from the core once 
the threat was clear.  This is by an entity that isn't the 3rd 
Imperium

FFW; No shifting.  War was really too short for that.

Rebellion; Lots of shifting.  Some places rebelled because they 
weren't willing to have their fleets stripped away for the war.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 11:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon Aug 19 10:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tech Levels (was warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1029777046.457.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020819175301.50A5527989@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/19/02 at 10:10 AM,  Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> said:

>richard honeycutt writes:

>>     It is my opinion that tech level should be a measure of what the 
>> world is capable of manufacturing on its own without outside influence.

>In which case all Lo-pop worlds would be TL 5-, which is not the case
>in the OTU.  Also violates canon that suggests that worlds are
>dependent on trade to maintain their tech level.

I think ya'll are putting way too much pressure on the simple TL
measure. If you push as hard as ya'll want to push it, of course, it's
going to break. IMO, the UWP's TL was never meant to carry a world's
*entire* economy on its back.

The way I have always used TL is as a very general measure of the
maximum tech level a traveller would find available around the
Starport (if there is one) of a world. TL-F doesn't *have* to mean the
world in question produces all of the items that a tech level 15 could
produce, nor that all of those items are even available there, just
that some TL 15 items can be procured there.  If the world is TL-F,
Pop 7+, and has an A or B Starport then you've probably got a major
producer and exporter of high tech. OTOH, if it is TL-F, with a low
pop or a lesser Starport, then what you've probably got is a high tech
importer.

And just because you can find a TL-F jump drive widget at the A
Starport, doesn't mean that once you step across the externalty line
you'll find a world teeming with air/rafts and gravbelts. If it suits
my (or any Referee's) purposes, a high-tech, high-pop, high-port world
can still be primative out beyond the Starport.

I suppose that reading tech level this way makes it hard to use it to
figure out the macroeconomics of the Imperium. That doesn't bother me,
because I'm not especially interested in Imperial macroeconomics. 

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 11:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Mon Aug 19 10:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <20020819135554.5f32b661c70b43acbe8f300f0af52650.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>There is also Patroit's Point in Charleston SC.  The USS Yorktown, a Coast
Guard cutter and a diesel sub (both names escape me) and some other things
as well.  Well worth it if you are there.

IIRC, the USCG cutter is the INGRAHAM, one of the Secretary-class ships that
today would be labeled High-Endurance Cutters.  They were the size of
contemporary destroyers, and were some of the most valuable escort ships
during the North Atlantic convoy battles during WW2.

C.T.
"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 12:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug 19 11:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tech Levels (was warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <20020819175301.50A5527989@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029780221.1945.ajackson@ping>

Eris Reddoch writes:

> I think ya'll are putting way too much pressure on the simple TL
> measure. If you push as hard as ya'll want to push it, of course, it's
> going to break. IMO, the UWP's TL was never meant to carry a world's
> *entire* economy on its back.
> 
> The way I have always used TL is as a very general measure of the
> maximum tech level a traveller would find available around the
> Starport (if there is one) of a world.

Ugh.  That's even worse, if the starport is active at all there _will_ be TL
12-15 stuff findable near the port, regardless of the general wealth or TL of
the world.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 12:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon Aug 19 11:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Tech Levels (was warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1029780221.1945.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020819183838.821F82798A@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/19/02 at 11:03 AM,  Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> said:

>Eris Reddoch writes:

>> I think ya'll are putting way too much pressure on the simple TL
>> measure. If you push as hard as ya'll want to push it, of course, it's
>> going to break. IMO, the UWP's TL was never meant to carry a world's
>> *entire* economy on its back.
>> 
>> The way I have always used TL is as a very general measure of the
>> maximum tech level a traveller would find available around the
>> Starport (if there is one) of a world.

>Ugh.  That's even worse, if the starport is active at all there
>_will_ be TL 12-15 stuff findable near the port, regardless of the
>general wealth or TL of the world.

Findable yes, common...not necessarily, and once you get away from the
port even less assured.

My point is that I don't think you should put so much reliance on that
single measure.  What PC's can find at a Starport might, or might not,
have very much to do with the rated TL of that world...it's up to the
Referee and the *play* of the game. 

Eris

ps.  Totally as an aside, and not aimed at anyone in particular, but
the list in general...I get the impression that many people on the TML
aren't actually playing Traveller. They are just talking about it, and
that is a shame! Traveller is, IMO, a game meant to be played, not
just discussed or analysed.  It's starting to feel more like we're a
bunch of baseball fans sitting around arguing over whether this dead
guy or that dead guy was a better hitter, whether the designated
hitter rule is ruining the game, or the ramifications of the infield
fly rule on the little-game theory of baseball. Jimminy!  <g>

Seriously, I think everyone on the list should find (or start) a
Traveller game and play the game. Whether face to face, online, or
even solo,  *playing* Traveller is what it's all about.

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 13:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Aug 19 12:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <F48dYYHcYVIKEhlwr6s000095b7@hotmail.com>

From: "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>

     "To your list, let me add the USS Alabama in Mobile Bay. I toured her 
several years ago, and it left quite an impression on me."


Mr. Reddoch,

     There is yet another treasure in Mobile Bay, the wreck of the Union 
monitor TECUMSEH.  She was lost to a mine (known as a torpedo at the time) 
and has been regularily surveyed since the '60s.  Fortunately for 
historians, she's beneath quite a bit of mud so sports divers haven't been 
able to loot her.  She's also remarkably intact, unlike the MONITOR(1).
     IIRC, there are plans to raise her if and when there is enough money to 
both do so AND handle the preservation costs.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

(1)  It's generally believed that MONITOR was mistakenly depth charged 
during WW2 after being detected by MAD gear and mistaken for a U-boat.


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 13:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Aug 19 12:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <F224JVBORmcfMRIEXHS00005591@hotmail.com>

From: "Beth" <shylady69@runbox.com>

     "There is also Patriot's Point in Charleston SC.  The USS Yorktown, a 
Coast Guard cutter and a diesel sub (both names escape me) and some other 
things as well.  Well worth it if you are there."


Ms. Shylady,

     Forgive for overlooking Patriot's Point, it is an excellent place to 
visit.  IIRC, the SAVANNAH, the world's first and only nuc-powered merchant 
ship is berthed there also.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 13:19:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fred Ramen)
Date: Mon Aug 19 12:19:36 2002
Subject: [TML] View before eating
Message-ID: <00f901c247b5$29c31a60$8e2ef7a5@pctframen>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> writes:

"    My apologies for AGAIN mixing personal e-mail with the List's business.
  Fortunately, thanks to Mr. Glenn's superb List management efforts, all of
you spared a color photo of yours' truly in swimming togs. (shudder)"

Curiously enough, this very image is the frontpiece to the latest edition of
the Whipsnade-Ramen Correspondence: Volume XXI, the War Years. Lovingly
edited by a gang of Vargr POWs, this volume once again delivers fascinating
insights into the fames duo's inner workings. Who, for example, cannot hear
the pathos involved in this dispatch?:

    110-1107

    Most honored chum,

    Can you PLEASE replace the liquor dispenser in Emil the Valet Bot?
Everything he mixes         these days tastes like a Zhodane Sunrise.

    I remain, yr. hmbl. svt,

    FR

Faced with the hard task of distracting a war-torn sector, Larsen displays a
touching willingness to bury himself in the minutiae of ordinary life, the
better to help him prepare for the carnage of the Rhylanor front:

    228-1108

    My most excellent and esteemed sir:

    As you no doubt know by now, "The Kid," star right fielder of the Mora
Blue-Bellies, hit his         600th home run last night, a new Spinward
Marches record. Kudos to the Mighty Splinter!

    More to the point, his homer, a game-winner in the ninth, propelled your
favorites, the                 Cosmopolitans, into a last-place hole that it
is now mathematically impossible for them to         escape from. As per our
agreement, the Sum of Cr 5000, ten boxes of Aramis cigars, and a     case of
Zilan wine are now payable to me on demand, which you may consider this note
to         be.

    I remain, etc.,

    Larsen E. Whipsnade

    PS Do not substitute Garda-Villisian tobacco for the cigars as I am no
fool.

However, the larger events of history are not neglected, as seen in this
dispatch from the flagship of Norris' Secret Expedition, where Mr. Ramen was
serving as a Scout Auxilliary:

    [date censored]
    Chum,

        The strangest thing just happened. After spending several days on
the surface of --------,         which we have been orbiting for a week now,
Duke Norris returned to the flagship and burst     onto the bridge,
clutching a piece of paper. Squealing in that high-pitched voice we both
know so well, he exclaimed: "Branj! I've got it! the Imperial Warrant!"
        He then started to caper about the bridge, loudly exclaiming his
plans for using the                 Warrant: "I'm going to redecorate
Glisten System--pink and taupe, what a hoot! Oh, and             orchestra
seats at La Scala Nova on Mora! And--And--I'm going shoe shopping!"
        Rapidly assessing the situation, I immediately offered to carry out
these orders and any         others that might need a little "doing," if he
would just "lend" me the warrant. I was getting         close to an
agreement (the Warrant for my complete two decades Holocrystal collection of
"Sex in the Subsector" and a pair of Manolo Blahniks I acquired on Mora)
when Branj burst in     with a platoon of Imperial Marines and sent me back
to my window washing station on deck     ZZ double Alpha. Some days you just
can't win...

    I rmn.,

    F

In all, Volume XXI of the Whipsnade-Ramen papers is another solid
contribution to the history of the Fifth Frontier Wars and belongs on the
bookshelf of anyone with about a cubic meter of space to spare.

Fred "That's pretty much what the real thing looks like" Ramen


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 13:21:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Aug 19 12:21:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <20020819021101.34955.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020819021101.34955.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p04330104b986f5047d97@[143.232.119.186]>

At 7:11 PM -0700 8/18/02, Paul Walker wrote:
>--- Eris Reddoch <erisred@telocity.com> wrote:
>>  On 08/17/02 at 12:27 PM,  alan spik
>>  <babyduck@mindspring.com> said:
>>
>>  >No hot bunking except in emergencies.
>>
>>  I'd like to point out that if you have gravity
>>  control, you don't have
>>  to have "bunks", containment webbing will do. Stack
>>  'em up like
>>  cordwood! <g>
>
>While I wouldn't deny the legitimate gripes of those
>who have spent lengthy time on a sailing vessel, I am
>surprised that no one has mentioned the fact that the
>crew onboard a starship doesn't have a deck to visit.
>There is something to be said to being able to go
>"above" and have the open sky above you that you can't
>do on a starship.  Still, you need to have a certain
>amount of "personal" space, but the open deck is
>something.

Which would be like being on a submarine.  Of course those had the 
most cramped spaces in the modern navy?  I sort of think a modern 
aircraft carrier is probably a good model for crew space...
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 13:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Aug 19 12:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <F149SshDveEgupDn6sl0000b690@hotmail.com>

From: "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>

     "LOL!  I've often thought he *belonged* on the Houston Astros, a larger 
collection of October busts you've never seen...or, and Larsen I do 
apologize for this, on the Red Sox so he could raise their hopes only
to confirm their October Flopdom once again.  Long live, The Curse of
the Bambino! <g>"


Mr. Reddoch,

     The Flops are well past proving their "October Busts" status.  Lately, 
they've been getting it over with far more quickly, like in June, July, or 
August.  DRAT!  No middle relief, batting is anemic, and it's "Pedro and 
Lowe, then pray for snow" when it comes to starters.
     BTW, True Sufferers don't pin the Flops' woes on the Bambino, it's all 
Fenway Park's fault!  The park opened the day the Titanic sank!
     As for the 'Stros, what do you expect when you play in day-glo pajamas 
instead of uniforms and name your new park after Enron?  Sheesh!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 14:03:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon Aug 19 13:03:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <p04330104b986f5047d97@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <20020819200248.4609.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> At 7:11 PM -0700 8/18/02, Paul Walker wrote:
> >--- Eris Reddoch <erisred@telocity.com> wrote:
> >>  On 08/17/02 at 12:27 PM,  alan spik
> >>  <babyduck@mindspring.com> said:
> >>
> >>  >No hot bunking except in emergencies.
> >>
> >>  I'd like to point out that if you have gravity
> >>  control, you don't have
> >>  to have "bunks", containment webbing will do.
> Stack
> >>  'em up like
> >>  cordwood! <g>
> >
> >While I wouldn't deny the legitimate gripes of
> those
> >who have spent lengthy time on a sailing vessel, I
> am
> >surprised that no one has mentioned the fact that
> the
> >crew onboard a starship doesn't have a deck to
> visit.
> >There is something to be said to being able to go
> >"above" and have the open sky above you that you
> can't
> >do on a starship.  Still, you need to have a
> certain
> >amount of "personal" space, but the open deck is
> >something.
> 
> Which would be like being on a submarine.  Of course
> those had the 
> most cramped spaces in the modern navy?  I sort of
> think a modern 
> aircraft carrier is probably a good model for crew
> space...

Perhaps one of our ex-Navy brethren can enlighten us,
but I doubt Subs spend 7+ days at a time under the
surface of the ocean blue.  I would be curious as to
how much deck time an average sailor and/or submariner
gets in our (or any for that matter) Navy.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 14:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Aug 19 13:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
References: <20020819021101.34955.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com> <p04330104b986f5047d97@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <3D615154.80806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

David P. Summers wrote:

> Which would be like being on a submarine.  Of course those had the most 
> cramped spaces in the modern navy?  

I believe they do. However they're also treated very well in other 
respects (submariner's mess is reputed to be the best in the Navy), and 
specifically screened for fitness for this duty. They're an elite, all 
volunteer, highly trained and highly paid service, about the complete 
opposite of the RSL model of ye auld Royal Navy.

>I sort of think a modern aircraft 
> carrier is probably a good model for crew space...

Probably, note, too, a modern Aircraft carrier has *scads* of room for 
rec space...remember Roger Staubach kept up his throwing arm on the deck 
of the carrier he was staioned on.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 14:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Aug 19 13:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Damned Silly Questions
In-Reply-To: <3D60CFCC.20856.29CDCB@localhost>
References: <3.0.6.32.20020817091336.00a8d100@minn.net>
 <3D5D8AAD.4507.237C6E@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020819130229.009fcec0@mindspring.com>

At 11:00 AM 8/19/02 +1200, you wrote:
>On 17 Aug 2002 at 9:13, Leslie Bates wrote:
>
> >
> > I need to name a TIGRESS class dreadnought for parts 5 and 6 of Friends in
> > High Places.
> >
> > Is there a feminine form of tomcat? If so, what is it?
>
>How about "Moggie". Actually it's "Queen" in cat breeding circles.

I hope to Ghod there are no filkers in the 57th Century to see that ship...

http://www.songworm.com/lyrics/songworm-parody/NobodysMoggyLands.html


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"I'm just trying to evict them. Frogs never pay."
                             - Rose Platt



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 14:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 19 13:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
Message-ID: <14a.12abd3ad.2a92afca@cs.com>

In a message dated 8/19/02 3:05:36 PM Central Daylight Time, 
traveller_tv@yahoo.com writes: 
> Perhaps one of our ex-Navy brethren can enlighten us,
> but I doubt Subs spend 7+ days at a time under the
> surface of the ocean blue.  I would be curious as to
> how much deck time an average sailor and/or submariner
> gets in our (or any for that matter) Navy.
> 
> Paul

Almost none. Essentially, when the sub leaves port and submerges, it stays 
down there until they run out of food. Usually about 45-60 days. This is just 
guesswork as I've never been on a sub outside of the repair yard but I'd say 
that if they really want to have a sub make a long-duration dive and really 
pack it to the rafters with food, it could stay submerged for maybe half a 
year (?). Of course all the crew members would be eligible for immediate 
entrance to the loony bin as soon as they made port, and I wouldn't trust 
them near a 90-year old nun, but it could probably be done.

Doug Grimes


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 14:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Burns)
Date: Mon Aug 19 13:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Tech Levels
Message-ID: <20020819204415.86943.qmail@web10605.mail.yahoo.com>

Just my .02 crimps...

The generated TL, being primarily affected by (or most
significantly so) the Starport class, and the UWP
being  chiefly an economic statement (trade
classifications, passenger and cargo lots), I've
always related it mostly to the world's commercial
spacefaring ability. Most class A ports will be able
to make Starships (TL 9+ on average) and class B ports
will have Spaceships (TL 7+ on average).
Government/Military (i.e. NOT avaiable for the PC's or
even most NPC's) will usually be a little better.

Beyond that, to factor the rest of it, the Starport
(and immediate surround, Startown if you like) is the
bull's-eye of my TL map for the world (the generated
TL) and the outer ring (furthest away, though not
always geographically) is half the generated TL.

I know Anthony Jackson disagrees with this
'generalization' but note Eris Reddoch said "Starport
(if there is one)". I doubt that you'll find much of
anything of even the local TL near a class E
'Starport' :)

As to the "active at all" part, maybe you need to
consider the situation the other way around. Why is
this class A Starport world 'only' TL 8? Maybe they
build some custom components for Starship's at TL 8
for export in trade for just enough high tech imports
to maintain their own fledgling Starship industry. And
the interesting TL 12 world a few jumps away with the
class E starport? They are a bunch of isolationists
living in a nice little utopia who keep a candle
(marker beacon) in the window (a big flat barren area
several klicks from anywhere) for any who want to come
and join them. 

By your reasoning (a Starport will always have high
tech near it) shouldn't the corollary be that a high
tech world can always build Starships regardless of
the Starport? You can get a TL 12 class C Starport
without a lot of rolls. Both these statements go
against the rules of the game. Of  course it is a game
and you can do whatever you like in YTU :)

Dan "far-trader" Burns

still looking for 'the' definitive .sig file



______________________________________________________________________ 
Post your ad for free now! http://personals.yahoo.ca

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 14:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Mon Aug 19 13:53:03 2002
Subject: Playing Traveller (was [TML] Tech Levels...)
Message-ID: <Springmail.0994.1029790355.0.29429000@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>

Eris Reddoch posted:
> 
> Seriously, I think everyone on the list should
> find (or start) a
> Traveller game and play the game. Whether face
> to face, online, or
> even solo,  *playing* Traveller is what it's
> all about.

Well, I'm playing tomorrow night in one of the two active campaigns I'm a
member of. This is in spite of a full-time day job, night classes, and
rebuilding part of my house (foundation problems).

Oh, and I'm helping build a "Traveller Online" application in Java for a
friend's website.

Some of us _do_ play. I, for one, farm the heck out of the TML for background
material.

And Jesse D.? AWESOME pics of the Ghalalk and Sloan. As always.
David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 14:55:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Aug 19 13:55:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <20020819200248.4609.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <p04330104b986f5047d97@[143.232.119.186]>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020819132758.009f8980@mindspring.com>

At 01:02 PM 8/19/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Perhaps one of our ex-Navy brethren can enlighten us,
>but I doubt Subs spend 7+ days at a time under the
>surface of the ocean blue.  I would be curious as to
>how much deck time an average sailor and/or submariner
>gets in our (or any for that matter) Navy.

An Ohio-class SSBN can spend several months under water.  They tend to 
carry materials and entertainment to last that long.  Nintendo-type game 
systems have practically become issue equipment.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry   gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Cry "CHEEBLE!" and let slip the hamsters of war!



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 14:56:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Aug 19 13:56:18 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEHFEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817174119.009e28e0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020819133029.009fab40@mindspring.com>

At 03:40 PM 8/18/02 -0400, you wrote:
>So how do the areas occupied by the Zhodoni to support the core expeditions
>fit into this?
>
>I don't doubt that you are right Doug, I'm just asking what its based on.
>Where does it say that the Consulate consists of 10 sectors? Is this GM
>information or is it in game information.

I looked at the map in the GURPS: Traveller book and counted.  :)   The map 
was oroignally published in one of the Library Data supplements.

The Core expeditions are just that: voyages of discovery.  I understand 
that they left outposts along the way, but haven't seen where they actually 
claimed the territory.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 14:57:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Aug 19 13:57:30 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <F2159TBbA4Y9Nt16gM40000c7e9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020819134229.009f1320@mindspring.com>

At 01:57 PM 8/19/02 +0000, you wrote:
>     There are several wonderful and historical ships open for tours in 
> the US.

USS Hornet, in Alameda, California.  San Francisco has a WWII submarine.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 14:58:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Mon Aug 19 13:58:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Technology Marches On - Traveller-like APCs Arrive?
Message-ID: <Springmail.0994.1029790473.0.84842300@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>

Well, not quite. They're not grav-/AC-based but their capabilities are
something very reminiscent of what I imagine Traveller APCs capable of. Check
'em out!

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/TechTV/techtv_stryker020819.html


David

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 15:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Mon Aug 19 14:00:03 2002
Subject: Author Ego-Boo (was: Re: RE: [TML] OTU is out of wack.)
In-Reply-To: <e1c08ee1e846.e1e846e1c08e@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020819134752.009f78b0@mindspring.com>

At 08:06 PM 8/19/02 +0300, you wrote:
>As an added bonus for me, _101 Corps_ gave me a chance to have AuricTech
>Shipyards and the shipping firm "Sweet-Carroll Lines" enshrined in
>print.... ;-)

Kirsten just read the names of your shipping line.

She's invited you to come back out to BayCon so she can smack you.

It's an honor, trust me.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 15:01:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Mon Aug 19 14:01:16 2002
Subject: Playing Traveller (was [TML] Tech Levels...)
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F168C@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

> And Jesse D.? AWESOME pics of the Ghalalk and Sloan. As always.
> David

Thanks :)
Jesse

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 15:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Mon Aug 19 14:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
References: <20020818033255.89A672793A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <002e01c247c6$2d1f06e0$8d30f7c2@imogen>

Eris wrote:
> I'd like to point out that if you have gravity control, you don't
> have to have "bunks", containment webbing will do. Stack 'em up
> like cordwood! <g>

I was looking at the canon deck plans of the AHL ... does  anyone
else use nets (containment webbing ?) to stop crewmen  and  other
loose object flying around during combat?

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 15:19:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Mon Aug 19 14:19:15 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Trek Tech
References: <000001c2463b$7093bba0$6401a8c0@GOCA>
Message-ID: <002f01c247c6$31481720$8d30f7c2@imogen>

J-Man wrote:
> I figure time travel is possible..its just changes to the past
> create a new quantum reality while the old timeline remains
> unchanged, thus preserving causality.

The way I see it (based on absolutely nothing  at  all)  is  that
time travel is possible but paradoxes are not.  If you  think  of
the branching  many  universes  model,  any  branch  in  which  a
temporal paradox occurs  is  unviable  and  is  'pruned'  out  of
exitence.  So, for example, the plot of the first Terminator film
is plausable, but that of the second film is not (the first  film
had a closed loop of cause and effect not a paradox).

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 15:20:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Mon Aug 19 14:20:40 2002
Subject: [TML] Clean data
References: <4EC81CD0-B2D7-11D6-A6C4-000502884755@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <003001c247c6$355ed7e0$8d30f7c2@imogen>

I've been looking at the  quality  of  the  sector  data  in  the
electronic files on the net recently.  I started by comparing the
electronic version of the Spinward Marches  to  the  original  CT
Supplement 3.  In addition to obveous typos there are a number of
cases where the original data  is  not  valid  according  to  the
standard system generation rules ... and the  electronic  version
has the nearest legal value.

Now I'm planning on  performing  a  data  clearing  exercise  and
posting the  results  in  a  number  of  different  formats  (for
Heaven&Earth,  World  Builders   Deluxe,   TrTools,   etc).   I'm
proposing that (for circa 1105) we start with Supplement  3  plus
the stellar data from Spinward Marches Campaign ... but take  the
*corrections* given in the HES  file  for  *physical*  stats.  In
other words accept that while the *social* stats in Supplement  3
may not be generatable by  the  standard  rules  they  are  still
canon.  The supporting argument for this is that (IIRC)  GDW  has
stated in  the  past  that  some  of  the  sectors  (older,  more
established sectors) were generated with houserule  additions  to
social stats.

I'd like the list's opinion: if sector files were made  available
that had been 'cleaned' in this way  (and  assuming  people  were
confident in the accuracy of  the  cleaning  process)  would  you
accept them as definative?

(I also realise that cleaning sectors  other  than  the  Spinward
Marches would be problematic as there is a  lack  of  alternative
sources.)

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 15:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 19 14:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Technology Marches On - Traveller-like APCs Arrive?
Message-ID: <72.21213d59.2a92bf75@cs.com>

In a message dated 8/19/02 3:59:53 PM Central Daylight Time, 
jurrubin@earthlink.net writes: 
> Well, not quite. They're not grav-/AC-based but their capabilities are
> something very reminiscent of what I imagine Traveller APCs capable of. 
> Check
> 'em out!
> 
> http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/TechTV/techtv_stryker020819.html
> 
> 
> David
> _____
And, according to a former paratrooper who's opinion I trust, it's a POS. 
It's half-again as heavy and twice as complicated as the other APC it was 
compared to, the Gavin II (a newer version of the M-113), It can only be 
carried in a C-130 if it's totally unloaded, no ammo, no fuel, no spares, and 
no crew, and if the air is let out of the tires. It's incidence of breakdown 
was almost twice as often as the Gavin due almost entirely to the newly 
designed transmission system. And, whereas the Gavin already has plenty of 
spare parts in the Army's logistics chain, and the mechanics know how to fix 
anything that might go wrong with it, the Stryker would require a whole new 
system of spare parts be acquired and all the mechanics be retrained.

What the Stryker is is a project whereby soon-to-be-retired Army generals and 
colonels ensure that the military arms manufacturers they are soon to be 
employed by get fat new contracts.

The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette has this article on the Stryker. One of the 
Pennsylvania National Guard units is one of the first to be equipped with 
this new toy.
http://www.post-gazette.com/nation/20020320mobilenat4p4.asp

Doug Grimes


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 15:42:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Aug 19 14:42:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <20020819200248.4609.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020819200248.4609.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <p04330105b9871664575e@[143.232.119.186]>

At 1:02 PM -0700 8/19/02, Paul Walker wrote:
>  > Which would be like being on a submarine.  Of course
>>  those had the
>>  most cramped spaces in the modern navy?  I sort of
>>  think a modern
>>  aircraft carrier is probably a good model for crew
>>  space...
>
>Perhaps one of our ex-Navy brethren can enlighten us,
>but I doubt Subs spend 7+ days at a time under the
>surface of the ocean blue.  I would be curious as to
>how much deck time an average sailor and/or submariner
>gets in our (or any for that matter) Navy.

According to a documentary I was, they spend months down there....
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 15:44:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Mon Aug 19 14:44:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <3D615154.80806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <20020819021101.34955.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>
 <p04330104b986f5047d97@[143.232.119.186]>
 <3D615154.80806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <p04330106b987169f6571@[143.232.119.186]>

At 1:13 PM -0700 8/19/02, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>>I sort of think a modern aircraft carrier is probably a good model 
>>for crew space...
>
>Probably, note, too, a modern Aircraft carrier has *scads* of room 
>for rec space...remember Roger Staubach kept up his throwing arm on 
>the deck of the carrier he was staioned on.

I was sort of thinking that the stateroom space might be generally 
OK, if you give them the small quarters you see in places like 
"military diaries" on VH1 and take the extra space and make mess 
halls, assembly rooms, etc.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 15:47:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Mon Aug 19 14:47:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020819133029.009fab40@mindspring.com>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEHFEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020817174119.009e28e0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020819175555.00a3cec0@mail.buffnet.net>

Wasn't there a Zhodane supplement out there at one point in Traveller's 
existence?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 15:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fred Ramen)
Date: Mon Aug 19 14:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The Frontier Wars; The other side of the hill
Message-ID: <012801c247c9$edfa5600$8e2ef7a5@pctframen>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> writes:

"Let me spin a Real World analogy.  It's the mid-1840's on the North ..."

[snip of great AH timeline]

Wow, beyond analogy, that was a cool alternate timeline. I hope the editors
of the next GURPS: Alternate Earths (or whatever it's called) are paying
attention.

A minor quibble: in the OTL, Lee accompanied Scott to Vera Cruz, not Taylor
to Monterrey. Furthermore, Lee was always a soldier first, not a statesman.
However, there is a replacement close at hand: Taylor's one-time son-in-law,
Jefferson Davis, a graduate of West Point and the colonel of a regiment of
Mississippi volunteers. Davis was a brave soldier and able politician, so
its quite possible to see him holding the line in Mexico, implementing a
truce line, and then marching on Washington to restore the Constitution.
(Not as crazy as it sounds, if you are familiar with his pre-Civil War
career.)

Further developments of this timeline, such as how on earth Mexico could be
strong enough to win the Mexican war, and what the future course of a rump
U.S. that had already displayed most of the sad flaws of its sister
republics in South America would be, I leave to the clever student. (Of
course, the idea of Davis actually winning a civil war might strain the SOD
of many readers...)

Fred "Kaiser von Rammenstein in some timeline" Ramen



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 16:18:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 19 15:18:05 2002
Subject: [TML] The Frontier Wars; The other side of the hill
Message-ID: <006501c247ce$3051d6a0$16000140@k62500>

Hello Larsen E. Whipsnade,

There is a small error in the following section of the below statement =
in the recent posting:

"US colonists have been drifting into that region for decades now, even =
detaching part of it, Texas, as an independent nation. (a new nation =
that allowed slavery, unlike Mexico)  Now US colonists are filtering =
into California and the Southwest, squabbling with the Mexican officials =
there.  The US government is in the process of absorbing independent =
Texas too."

1. The Mexican government invited North American, primarily Southern =
citizens, settlers into Texas. In order for the settlers to be admitted =
they agreed to abide by Mexican regulations and laws. The settlers =
agreed, began home steading, and then began chaffing at what they felt =
were unfair laws. Eventually, the settlers overthrew the local authority =
and set up the Republic of Texas.

2. The Republic of Texas made overtures to the U.S. government which =
were politely rebuffed owing to an unfavorable climate. This quickly =
turned around when the Republic of Texas began to make overtures for =
support to Great Britain. There were other reasons for the change in US =
policy, but keeping Texas out of British hands was the biggest concern.

Tom Rux


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 16:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug 19 15:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <20020819221913.75438.qmail@web20418.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>

>If Mexico or Canada invaded us every couple of generations, I
>imagine we'd do some pre-emptive annexing too.

Well, the Mexicans were not very likely to invade in the mid-19th
Century, but the buffer zone created by the 1845 war certainly
ensured that they did not.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 16:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug 19 15:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: FFW Question
Message-ID: <20020819222207.76060.qmail@web20418.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

>>Did the Zho's ever actually attack Regina (in canon)?
>
>Depends on your canon.  CT canon is unclear.  In Ground Forces it is

>stated clearly that there is a landing.

There is at least one hit-and-run attack during a press conference
mentioned in TAS article.   I've played Fifth Frontier War a few
times, both solo and against others, and Regina is always taken
pretty easily.

--Glenn



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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 16:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Mon Aug 19 15:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F1690@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

My cousin served on the carrier USS America during the Gulf War.  Here was the size of his "stateroom" ;)

"About 6'5"x 18" x 24""

Of course, he was only an avionics tech, so his stateroom was a bunk :)  I think only officers had real staterooms, and then it was two officers per closet-sized room.  I'll get more specific info later.  He was off to a meeting and didn't have time to chat in IM.

Jesse


> -----Original Message-----
> From: David P. Summers [mailto:summers@alum.mit.edu]
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 2:43 PM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
> 
> 
> At 1:13 PM -0700 8/19/02, Bruce Johnson wrote:
> >>I sort of think a modern aircraft carrier is probably a good model 
> >>for crew space...
> >
> >Probably, note, too, a modern Aircraft carrier has *scads* of room 
> >for rec space...remember Roger Staubach kept up his throwing arm on 
> >the deck of the carrier he was staioned on.
> 
> I was sort of thinking that the stateroom space might be generally 
> OK, if you give them the small quarters you see in places like 
> "military diaries" on VH1 and take the extra space and make mess 
> halls, assembly rooms, etc.
> -- 
> ______________________________
> summers@alum.mit.edu
> (This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but 
> I'm in California.)
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 16:29:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug 19 15:29:06 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <20020819222844.14677.qmail@web20414.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com>

>Oh come on guys.  The man has done something that only
>three other men have done in the history of the game. 

I'm just talking about the jargon.  I know who Barry Bonds is and
respect his accomplishment, because I read the first section of the
newspaper and because I saw the subject line of the post.  The
original posts, however, were completely opaque, and failed to convey
anything comprehensible to me.  (If I approached them as a project in
cryptanalyis or language translation, I might eventually derive some
understanding.)

--Glenn

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 16:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Colin)
Date: Mon Aug 19 15:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] on the ropes, but still in the fight
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMIEJHECAA.tml@jtas.org>

Fellow Travellers,

	After four plus years of serving as chief web slinger and code cleaner for
Downport.com and several web kingdoms of my own, I am so seriously jostled
about by Real Life (tm), having changed living arrangements six times in the
past 7 months, that I have been ineffective at growing and am barely
maintaining content. My apologies to those who have sent updates to various
listings on Downport.com and affiliated sites, for I fear that I have been
very slow to respond. Unfortunately, this situation may last a little while
longer, since I have one more move to make before I'll be settled for a
little while. Please continue to be a bit patient for a few more weeks and I
promise to do my best to get back on track.

	Two of my projects have suffered badly during this time. First, I resigned
as editor of the Open Directory Traveller Category
(http://dmoz.org/Games/Roleplaying/Genres/Science_Fiction/Traveller/) back
in December, but whereas nobody has taken over the category that listing has
dropped from 200+ web sites to just 160. They automatically remove broken
links, but it takes an editor to approve new additions (and hopefully find
and add a few, as well). Taking on the whole category and its eight sub-cats
might be too much to ask, but please consider taking over a sub-category
such as "Classic Traveller" or "GURPS Traveller", etc.

	The other site getting short shrift is The Traveller Trader
(http://www.travellertrader.com). Moving around a lot has made it impossible
for me to seek out and purchase fresh titles for this online, used Traveller
book store. That has made it rather stale and boring, I know. One of my top
priorities will be adding new stock to the shelves and an overhaul of the
site to automate the shopping process. I hope to launch the new version of
the site by early November. Meanwhile, I'd like to get rid of a lot of the
current stock so that I have less to move, both physically and
electronically, to its new digs. Therefore, I am offering a 25% discount on
every item through the end of August. You'll have to _ask_ for the discount
when ordering and I'll take it off of the total order.

	Finally, I want to add my Cr 0.02 about the movement afoot to make a new
Spinward Marches Landgrab webring. I really think that the Landgrab is one
of the best projects that we have going. I think that it should stay the way
it is, spread across a large number of web sites. To that end, I think that
the webring would encourage newbies and veteran browsers alike to peruse
them.

_____________________________________________
The Traveller Web Portal
http://www.downport.com
webmaster@downport.com


 Colin Michael 
 TAS-NET Administrator 
 JTAS.Net 

_________________________________
     The Traveller Trader
 http://www.travellertrader.com
"The place to get that wonderful,
  out-of-print Traveller stuff!"



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 16:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Aug 19 15:35:04 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
References: <200208191429.NCQ00397@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D617255.1090908@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:

> Quite unlike the US, who puts its aircraft into the desert, 
> and chops them up for scrap.

Actually, other federal agencies can purchase planes from the boneyards, 
and until the mid to late 70's so could citizens.

Alas, they were being purchased here, gassed up, flown south and often 
caught coming here again, full of pot and/or coke.

After a few of these episodes, they suspended civilian sales of aircraft.

Bastards.

There were some truly classic aircraft turned into scrap after that. :-(

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 16:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Mon Aug 19 15:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Damned Silly Questions
Message-ID: <memo.978885@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <3D618968.26532.CCFF86@localhost>
A silly thought in answer to a silly question: Have you considered using 
the names of some of the T.S. Eliot cats?

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 16:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Aug 19 15:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Tech Levelling
In-Reply-To: <F231KHRosXmhYkyNkj900002582@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D6220C6.10081.34EB72@localhost>

On 19 Aug 2002 at 14:09, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

> Mr. Boleyn,
> 
>      Surely New Zealand is a member of the WTO?

It is.

> If so, file a protest with that organization and force arbitration. 
> The US and EU have been clubbing each other with WTO rulings, and
> forcing real changes in trade policies, for years now. 

Fat lot of good it did us over lamb exports.

>      The US opened the "closed" EU banana market (I'm not kidding) by 
> overturning an EU ex-European colony banana preference policy.  The EU 
> forced the US to drop export supports in the form of tax incentives for 
> corporations.  Canada and the US are currently tussling over softwood 
> imports, a WTO will eventually settle it.  Even Dubya's steel tariffs are 
> working their way up the ladder towards WTO arbitration.
>      Sure, it may take time, but every WTO signatory is sworn to abide by 
> arbiters' decisions.

It takes a rediculous amount of time and effort though. I can't help 
wondering if this will make it end up as a club used by wealthier 
nations to beat smaller, poorer ones into submission.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 17:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug 19 16:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Tech Levelling
In-Reply-To: <3D6220C6.10081.34EB72@localhost>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029798354.4479.ajackson@ping>

Rupert Boleyn writes:

> It takes a rediculous amount of time and effort though. I can't help 
> wondering if this will make it end up as a club used by wealthier 
> nations to beat smaller, poorer ones into submission.

Let's see.  The WTO was set up by wealthier nations.  Take a guess?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 17:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug 19 16:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <20020819231505.44062.qmail@web20419.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

>But our last war with Iraq was 11 years ago.  When was the last time

>that Sweden swept down on anyone?

Their last military adventurism was about 1740, but those "I Am
Curious" movies from the 1960s nearly brought down western
civilization.

--Glenn


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 17:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug 19 16:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Make Sure My Combat Armor Has This Option
Message-ID: <200208192318.NDH04705@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Spaced Electrocapacitive Armor"

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/26728.html

If it really works, it looks like it would make the HEAT 
round obsolete.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 17:32:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug 19 16:32:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Make Sure My Combat Armor Has This Option
In-Reply-To: <200208192318.NDH04705@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029799904.9983.ajackson@ping>

John T. Kwon writes:
> "Spaced Electrocapacitive Armor"
> 
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/26728.html
> 
> If it really works, it looks like it would make the HEAT 
> round obsolete.

Appears to be what FF&S calls electrostatic armor. and GURPS calls
electromagnetic armor.  I doubt it would reduce the penetration of typical
shaped charges by enough to make them survivable with combat armor.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 17:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug 19 16:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <20020819233224.58157.qmail@web20417.mail.yahoo.com>

While we're talking about baseball, I note that the players are
contemplating a strike to squeeze more money out of team owners.  I
would like to suggest two changes to the current regime that would
benefit baseball fans.

(1)  Make the players own their teams.  They buy out the current
owners at fair market value, hire whatever management they want, and
pay themselves as much as they want.

(2)  Remove baseball's exemption from the anti-trust laws.  More
competition will mean more games to watch, at lower prices.

Ob Traveller:  We are grateful that grav-ballers do not have these
problems.

--Glenn

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 17:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug 19 16:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Human Nature or 'WWRD' or 'WWAD'
Message-ID: <20020819234016.95633.qmail@web20418.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

>>For that matter, what if the Zhodani fleet assembles at an
uncharted
>>star or a fuel dump in deep space?
>
>Things like this keep admirals awake at night.
>
>Remember that the first news we had of the 5FW was a Zho fleet 
>appearing at Ruie.  And we only knew that because a detached duty
>scout happened to be in system with the fuel to jump.  Even so, the
>ship was battle damaged.  Had that ship *not* been on site, the
>first sighting would have been when the perfidious Zhodani broke
>jump in Regina!

It's interesting that there are two Shivva-class Zhodani warships in
orbit at Vanejen in 1105, according to Research Station Gamma.  What
were they doing there?  Vanejen is probably five or six jump-4 jumps
from the border.  Did the Imperial Navy know they were there?  

--Glenn

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 17:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Aug 19 16:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The Frontier Wars; The other side of the hill
Message-ID: <F18072HVUKmqzAGz97J00009117@hotmail.com>

From: "Fred Ramen" <von_rammen@msn.com>

     "Wow, beyond analogy, that was a cool alternate timeline. I hope the 
editors of the next GURPS: Alternate Earths (or whatever it's called) are 
paying attention."


Mr. Ramen,

     Thank you, sir.  The creative powers inherent of single malt scotch can 
be frightening at times.

     "A minor quibble: in the OTL, Lee accompanied Scott to Vera Cruz, not 
Taylor to Monterrey. Furthermore, Lee was always a soldier first, not a 
statesman.  However, there is a replacement close at hand: Taylor's one-time 
son-in-law, Jefferson Davis, a graduate of West Point and the colonel of a 
regiment of Mississippi volunteers."

     Jeff Davis would have been a much better choice than Lee, but, after 
displaying crass Yankee parochialism in my baseball posts, I decided to 
select a historical individual most non-American Listers might know.
     The Mexican War made Davis, catapulting him into national prominence 
and federal office.  Lee performed superbly also, mostly in the role of a 
combat engineer (all top graduates of the Point are offered commissions in 
the Corp of Engineers).  He scouted most of the route Scott took between 
Veracruz and the Valley of Mexico.

     "Further developments of this timeline, such as how on earth Mexico 
could be strong enough to win the Mexican war,..."

     During the Mexican War of Independence in the 1820's, break the 
institutional powers of the Catholic Church and provide Mexico with a 
Washington rather than the historical gaggle of Santa Annas.

     "...and what the future course of a rump U.S. that had already 
displayed most of the sad flaws of its sister republics in South America 
would be,..."

     That future course would be sad indeed.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 18:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (colin @ Pemaquid Solutions)
Date: Mon Aug 19 17:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] on the ropes, but still in the fight
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMEEJHECAA.colin@pemaquidsolutions.com>

Fellow Travellers,

	After four plus years of serving as chief web slinger and code cleaner for
Downport.com and several web kingdoms of my own, I am so seriously jostled
about by Real Life (tm), having changed living arrangements six times in the
past 7 months, that I have been ineffective at growing and am barely
maintaining content. My apologies to those who have sent updates to various
listings on Downport.com and affiliated sites, for I fear that I have been
very slow to respond. Unfortunately, this situation may last a little while
longer, since I have one more move to make before I'll be settled for a
little while. Please continue to be a bit patient for a few more weeks and I
promise to do my best to get back on track.

	Two of my projects have suffered badly during this time. First, I resigned
as editor of the Open Directory Traveller Category
(http://dmoz.org/Games/Roleplaying/Genres/Science_Fiction/Traveller/) back
in December, but whereas nobody has taken over the category that listing has
dropped from 200+ web sites to just 160. They automatically remove broken
links, but it takes an editor to approve new additions (and hopefully find
and add a few, as well). Taking on the whole category and its eight sub-cats
might be too much to ask, but please consider taking over a sub-category
such as "Classic Traveller" or "GURPS Traveller", etc.

	The other site getting short shrift is The Traveller Trader
(http://www.travellertrader.com). Moving around a lot has made it impossible
for me to seek out and purchase fresh titles for this online, used Traveller
book store. That has made it rather stale and boring, I know. One of my top
priorities will be adding new stock to the shelves and an overhaul of the
site to automate the shopping process. I hope to launch the new version of
the site by early November. Meanwhile, I'd like to get rid of a lot of the
current stock so that I have less to move, both physically and
electronically, to its new digs. Therefore, I am offering a 25% discount on
every item through the end of August. You'll have to _ask_ for the discount
when ordering and I'll take it off of the total order.

	Finally, I want to add my Cr 0.02 about the movement afoot to make a new
Spinward Marches Landgrab webring. I really think that the Landgrab is one
of the best projects that we have going. I think that it should stay the way
it is, spread across a large number of web sites. To that end, I think that
the webring would encourage newbies and veteran browsers alike to peruse
them.

_____________________________________________
The Traveller Web Portal
http://www.downport.com
webmaster@downport.com


 Colin Michael 
 TAS-NET Administrator 
 JTAS.Net 

_________________________________
     The Traveller Trader
 http://www.travellertrader.com
"The place to get that wonderful,
  out-of-print Traveller stuff!"



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 18:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Mon Aug 19 17:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <20020819200248.4609.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEILEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

I saw less time above deck on a carrier than I ever did on smaller ships
(frigates, destroyers or cruisers.) This was due to the fact that "outside"
is almost exclusively the domain of the flight deck crew. Submariners spend
very littler time either on the surface or in port (while deployed.) When on
the surface they have almost no "deck space" nor are very many sailors
allowed on deck at that time.

I would also point out the submarines still do not have mixed gender crews
and are the only platform in the U.S. Navy where hot bunking is still
authorized. It is also a branch of the Naval Service that has a real problem
keeping people and pays its sailors thousands of dollars in re-enlistment
bonuses as well as sub pay and nuclear bonus pay. I would say that a typical
sub engineer makes almost 2/3 more a month than a conventional engineer in a
surface ship. They are authorized quarters ashore (single surface sailors
are expected to live aboard their ships, even when his or her ship is
scheduled to be in homeport for months, as they are during repair and upkeep
periods, admittedly few and far between in these high deployment times.)

I would also point out that unlike a wet navy ship a Traveller starship
might visit a truly habitable world only very seldom. Most worlds are not
habitable.

On the other side many spacers might come form habitat environments and not
be especially keen to visit an open air world.

To me one of the biggest aspects of this discussion is how do spacers relate
to their ships? In the modern (U.S.) Navy a sailor will spend no more than 5
years on a ship. 3 Years is more common. (For ratings only, officers have a
different career path.) This follows CT character creation. It is not the
kind of career path I would expect. I would follow the pattern used by the
Navy in the late nineteenth century. In those days a sailor would report
aboard a ship as a young seaman and retire from that same ship 30 years
later as a grizzled old masters mate. Only the sinking of the ship or
especially good performance (which might mean an appointment to a new ship
in a higher position) would disrupt this career path.

In such a case a bit of personal space would be even more important. It's
true that the 19th century sailor didn't have such a thing, but he also
didn't have a skill that could be easily transferred to a civilian job
either. Mostly sailors were uneducated farm boys doing work in the (to
paraphrase another poster) only slightly less work than the age of sail
(steam) age. Don't forget that the sailor's civilian counterpart was working
twelve to eighteen hour days, six days a week, often in mines or factories.
So unless the spacer is an escapee from MyMines the chances are that a
fusion systems mechanic or weapons system technician can make more by
working in commercial shipping, get higher pay and a semi-private stateroom.

Final point: The reason present American sailors don't do this is that for
all practical purposes there is no commercial shipping counterpart to the
military. Many do leave the navy for work ashore.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Paul Walker
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 4:03 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Naval crew accommodation

--- "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> At 7:11 PM -0700 8/18/02, Paul Walker wrote:
> >--- Eris Reddoch <erisred@telocity.com> wrote:
> >>  On 08/17/02 at 12:27 PM,  alan spik
> >>  <babyduck@mindspring.com> said:
> >>
> >>  >No hot bunking except in emergencies.
> >>
> >>  I'd like to point out that if you have gravity
> >>  control, you don't have
> >>  to have "bunks", containment webbing will do.
> Stack
> >>  'em up like
> >>  cordwood! <g>
> >
> >While I wouldn't deny the legitimate gripes of
> those
> >who have spent lengthy time on a sailing vessel, I
> am
> >surprised that no one has mentioned the fact that
> the
> >crew onboard a starship doesn't have a deck to
> visit.
> >There is something to be said to being able to go
> >"above" and have the open sky above you that you
> can't
> >do on a starship.  Still, you need to have a
> certain
> >amount of "personal" space, but the open deck is
> >something.
>
> Which would be like being on a submarine.  Of course
> those had the
> most cramped spaces in the modern navy?  I sort of
> think a modern
> aircraft carrier is probably a good model for crew
> space...

Perhaps one of our ex-Navy brethren can enlighten us,
but I doubt Subs spend 7+ days at a time under the
surface of the ocean blue.  I would be curious as to
how much deck time an average sailor and/or submariner
gets in our (or any for that matter) Navy.

Paul


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 18:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ken Hagler)
Date: Mon Aug 19 17:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <3D617255.1090908@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <B986DB44.5D4AB%khagler@orange-road.com>

on 8/19/2002 3:33 PM, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Actually, other federal agencies can purchase planes from the boneyards,
> and until the mid to late 70's so could citizens.
> 
> Alas, they were being purchased here, gassed up, flown south and often
> caught coming here again, full of pot and/or coke.

That sounds like a good deal for the government. They sell the plane, then
they steal (excuse me, "seize") it from the people who bought it, then sell
it again. Repeat indefinitely...
-- 
                              Ken Hagler

|          ICQ#: 34591293         |   For PGP key send mail with  |
|   http://www.orange-road.com/   |    subject "Send PGP Key".    |
|   And tho' we are not now that strength which in old days       |
|   Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are --Tennyson  |


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 18:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Mon Aug 19 17:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F1690@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEIMEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

There are four kinds of staterooms on a carrier.

Really junior officers can actually be relegated to bunk rooms, each having
no more than eight bunks. These are generally used only for black shoe
officers (surface warfare officers who run the ships systems.) No flight
officer, or even flight support officer would ever be relegated to one of
these.

More senior black shoe officers and pilots get two person staterooms. Each
stateroom generally has a sink, two bunks, two desks, and a small
refrigerator. The refrigerator is necessary to provide ice for the whiskey
kept in the gun safe installed in each set of lockers. Embarked Marine
officer generally share this kind of stateroom.

The third kind of stateroom is reserved for senior squadron officers,
department heads and the Carrier Command Master Chief (the only enlisted man
in the navy to rate a stateroom.) This is a single. It generally has a bunk
that folds into a couch, a desk, a refer, and a private or semi private
bath. (The doubles either share a bath between two rooms or like the
bunkroom has a common head located nearby.)

The final kind of stateroom is not a stateroom at all. It is a suite of
rooms, the accouterments of which would shame most luxury hotel rooms. These
are used by the ship's commanding officer, the executive officer, and the
group commander who is an admiral, and whose quarters are even more
luxurious than the commanding officer's.

The captain of the John F. Kennedy had a living room with a large screen TV,
VCR (This predated DVDs), stereo a couch, and several chairs arranged in a
sitting room. He had a dinning area capable of seating a dozen, around a
mahogany dining table. His bedroom was bigger than the entire 30 person
berthing compartment I lived in while on a destroyer. (On a carrier ratings
generally live in 130 person berthing compartments.) He also had an office.
This was personal space. Official meeting rooms, an official commanding
officer's office in another part of the ship and a sea cabin near the bridge
also belonged to him. In actuality he had more space than Jon luc Picard of
Star Trek fame. The quarters shown on the TV show are picayune compared to
the real quarters of a U.S. Navy Carrier captain.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of DeGraff, Jesse
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 6:21 PM
To: 'tml@travellercentral.com'
Subject: RE: [TML] Naval crew accommodation

My cousin served on the carrier USS America during the Gulf War.  Here was
the size of his "stateroom" ;)

"About 6'5"x 18" x 24""

Of course, he was only an avionics tech, so his stateroom was a bunk :)  I
think only officers had real staterooms, and then it was two officers per
closet-sized room.  I'll get more specific info later.  He was off to a
meeting and didn't have time to chat in IM.

Jesse


> -----Original Message-----
> From: David P. Summers [mailto:summers@alum.mit.edu]
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 2:43 PM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
>
>
> At 1:13 PM -0700 8/19/02, Bruce Johnson wrote:
> >>I sort of think a modern aircraft carrier is probably a good model
> >>for crew space...
> >
> >Probably, note, too, a modern Aircraft carrier has *scads* of room
> >for rec space...remember Roger Staubach kept up his throwing arm on
> >the deck of the carrier he was staioned on.
>
> I was sort of thinking that the stateroom space might be generally
> OK, if you give them the small quarters you see in places like
> "military diaries" on VH1 and take the extra space and make mess
> halls, assembly rooms, etc.
> --
> ______________________________
> summers@alum.mit.edu
> (This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but
> I'm in California.)
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 19:20:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 19 18:20:31 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast
Message-ID: <183.cf9fb30.2a92f333@aol.com>

 >The feeling of closeness.
 > ....
 >I'm sure there are military people on this list who
 >have spent months or years under the decks of large
 >ships, and could add to this if they'd like to...I
 >just wanted to share some impressions from a person
 >taking their first real tour of the innards of a very
 >large warship.  The ObTrav struck me while I was there,
 >thinking of what the innards of space stations and
 >battlecruisers might be like.

I spent six and a half years on a carrier.  It was only 20,000 tons or so by 
Traveller standards, and heavily compartmented, but even so some areas were 
very wide open.  At Christmas time when no-one was around you could stand at 
the aft end of the starboard 2nd deck passage and see half the length of the 
ship.  In engineering the machinery spaces were large and open.  Some of the 
shaft alleys were very large and wide-open, but were virtually unvisited.

I'd been on the ship for four years when I went forward into the airdale 
berthing looking for something.  I got completely lost, and had to look at 
the maps on the walls to find my way out.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 19:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Mon Aug 19 18:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockhead
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817211431.009e5a00@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3D615032.7050100@usisp.com>

>
>
> Have you looked at _GURPS Traveller: First In_?  It has a world design 
> system that addresses many of your concerns.  Based on current 
> scientific knowledge, it gives fascinating results.
>
    Thank you for the info. Alas, though, I probably will never see it 
as I live a good 1.5 hrs from a decent game store and I really don't 
want to buy yet another ruleset. Besides, I think that tinkering in such 
a manner may be how I play Traveller most often.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 19:26:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Mon Aug 19 18:26:15 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817205659.009e5cb0@mindspring.com> <3D60407A.27103.29B41BB@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D615336.4020405@usisp.com>

>
>
>>(the vegetarians, anywa--I understand the Hivers had some success in
>>modifying their disease). 
>>

    Do the K'kree add animal byproducts in the form of ground meal to 
their feed?
Sorta like a K'kree soylent green?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 19:27:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Mon Aug 19 18:27:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Rockheads
References: <14c.129ff25d.2a91303f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D6156E2.1030402@usisp.com>

>
>
>
>Not to sound catty, but my prefered way to improve upon the *format* of the 
>UWP is through a format expansion technique already part of Traveller. This 
>ancient and arcane technique is called Library Data.
>

    An admirable method, but one that does not specifically address what 
I perceive
as the weak points of the standard uwp.
    1. Starport types are pure random with no consideration of tech or 
population.
    2. Population is pure random with no consideration to local enviroment.
    3. Tech level is governed mainly by starport (pure random) with 
relatively little
        influence by any other statistic except lack of suitability for 
colonization and
        even giving a +1 dm for a small population.
    These are problems that prevent the worlds generated by the standard 
uwp from
fulfilling my ideas as to what Traveller should be. And like you, I use 
information
that is already part of the process to modify the process.
    I merely wish 'bug reports' , if you will, so that I can correct 
obvious flaws.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 19:28:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Mon Aug 19 18:28:40 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Rockheads
References: <20020818190006.10026.33198.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <vhf0mucaoffgth7o7jvk941jrll88rklca@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <3D615B35.7000603@usisp.com>

>
>Not to mention the alternative ways of encoding additional UWP data, as
>found in the DGP World Builders' Handbook, and the Extending the UWP series
>of articles in Doing It My Way at Freelance Traveller.
>
    While they are very helpful, they do not fix what I believe that 
they address
the things that I think are problematic.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 19:29:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Mon Aug 19 18:29:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockhead
References: <90.2a95b775.2a909c11@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D616092.1080608@usisp.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> >I welcome constructive criticism in order to improve it.
>
>I would say add some modifiers regarding proximity to other populated worlds. 
> Traveller canon says that the Spinward Main developed more rapidly than 
>worlds off of the Main because the Main worlds could be reached by jump 1 
>vessels, and that other worlds languished and were left behind.  If you study 
>the Main it is obvious that this modifier was not implemented, as the worlds 
>on the Main are indistinguishable from those off of it, but it makes sense to 
>actually implement such a modifier.  Say you have an A or 9 world with no 
>other A or 9 world within 6 parsecs -- it's not going to do much trading and 
>it's going to do a lot of work on its own.  But if you have two or three A or 
>9 worlds within 2 parsecs of each other then they'll trade a great deal in 
>both goods and technology.
>
    Perhaps the 'mature' dm for tech could be applied to the 'main', and 
the 'frontier'
dm could be applied could be applied to worlds more than 6 parsecs from 
the 'main'.
Could that interpretation work?




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 19:30:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Mon Aug 19 18:30:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economics
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEHKEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <3D61644C.1030703@usisp.com>

Terry Carlino wrote:

>"basically I only get that stuff when someone pries it
>out of the owners cold dead hand or the spouse sells it off after the
>divorce."
>
    Best compliment possible of the older rules....plus I have them 
already, so
that is what I shall play with.

>
>That being the case try to realize that quoting a book like Pocket Empires,
>as a source is somewhat problematic. First it's T4 material, which is
>generally considered to be rather poorly put together by many Traveller
>players. Second it models the early Imperium so like Trillion Credit
>Squadrons may not be said to accurately reflect the later Imperium, which is
>after all a full millennium in the future of the period described. Thirdly
>it is not available for direct research by many here, so if used as a source
>your post might be better if it included a sizable quote of the relevant
>material.
>
    T4 or not, 'Pocket Empires' is an excellent set of rules, just as 
long as one realizes
That it models economies and politics, but not much else. It is based on 
sound
economic theory ( but obviously simplified ).
    Do people in the late Imperium do business radically different than 
in Year 0?
Are the politics that much different?  If not, then why can these rules 
not simulate
trade and treaties during and after the Rebellion. If anything, it would 
seem ideal
to simulate a post-virus 'Second Night'.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 19:32:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Mon Aug 19 18:32:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <ML-2.3.1029777046.457.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3D616860.70000@usisp.com>

Anthony Jackson wrote:

>richard honeycutt writes:
>
>>    It is my opinion that tech level should be a measure of what the 
>>world is capable of
>>manufacturing on its own without outside influence.
>>
>
>In which case all Lo-pop worlds would be TL 5-, which is not the case in the
>OTU.  Also violates canon that suggests that worlds are dependent on trade to
>maintain their tech level.
>
    I agree, which is why, the question of what tech level means is 
important.
A lo-pop world would have lo-tech simply because it doesn't have enough 
people
to operate the manufacturing base to maintain higher tech levels. Does 
this mean
that lo-tech worlds do not have hi-tech goods available? No. High tech 
goods
will be available through trade as imports.
    Canon says that tech level  represents available goods. In my 
interpretation, that means
that they are available as imports and not locally manufactured. As 
imports, a world
must engage in trade to maintain a higher tech level.
    How is that in violation of canon? If it is as you suggest, then why 
aren't all worlds at
Imperial Tech? ( Unless there are major trade restrictions on those 
lo-tech worlds).
    I merely suggest that tech means manufactured goods as a way of 
determining what
a world can actually make for trade purposes, and use highest tech 
within a reasonable
distance as available tech (imported)
'world builder's handbook' tech section gives nice guidelines for import 
tech as novelties.
Otherwise, how about
     4 jumps to type a port                      for highest tech available
     3 jumps to type b port                      using whatever jump rating
     2 jumps to type c port                      a merchant has
     1 jump to type  d port

Thus perhaps there will be 2 tech levels listed



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 19:33:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Mon Aug 19 18:33:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Tech Levels (was warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
References: <20020819175301.50A5527989@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D616C3E.8090201@usisp.com>

>
>
>I think ya'll are putting way too much pressure on the simple TL
>measure. If you push as hard as ya'll want to push it, of course, it's
>going to break. IMO, the UWP's TL was never meant to carry a world's
>*entire* economy on its back.
>
    But it breaks without to much pressure on it at all. When it is used 
to determine
economies and simple pc trade&speculation and determine what players can
and cannot buy, it must be stronger than it is. And I think that it is 
just a matter
of rules interpretation. I have stated my arguments as clearly as I know 
how.

>The way I have always used TL is as a very general measure of the
>maximum tech level a traveller would find available around the
>Starport (if there is one) of a world. TL-F doesn't *have* to mean the
>world in question produces all of the items that a tech level 15 could
>produce, nor that all of those items are even available there, just
>that some TL 15 items can be procured there.  If the world is TL-F,
>Pop 7+, and has an A or B Starport then you've probably got a major
>producer and exporter of high tech. OTOH, if it is TL-F, with a low
>pop or a lesser Starport, then what you've probably got is a high tech
>importer.
>
    I do not suggest anything much different than that. But, in the case 
of the
lo-pop,lesser starport world that imports high tech....just what CAN 
they make
that actually can affect trade?
    My problems is with the way tech levels are assigned in the uwp. Two 
are necessary...
one for local produced goods and one for imported goods. That is all 
that I suggest.

>And just because you can find a TL-F jump drive widget at the A
>Starport, doesn't mean that once you step across the externalty line
>you'll find a world teeming with air/rafts and gravbelts. If it suits
>my (or any Referee's) purposes, a high-tech, high-pop, high-port world
>can still be primative out beyond the Starport.
>
>I suppose that reading tech level this way makes it hard to use it to
>figure out the macroeconomics of the Imperium. That doesn't bother me,
>because I'm not especially interested in Imperial macroeconomics. 
>
    We actually agree on the ultimate use of tech levels in the rpg.
I am interested in how it effects macroeconomics though, and  want
to know the 'real' tech level of a world. sans imported goods. It also
spurs my imagination on what the world might ultimately be like.
For my views on tech generation in the uwp, see my earlier posts.

>





From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 19:35:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Mon Aug 19 18:35:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Tech Levels (was warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
References: <ML-2.3.1029780221.1945.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3D616D06.30106@usisp.com>

>
>
>>
>>The way I have always used TL is as a very general measure of the
>>maximum tech level a traveller would find available around the
>>Starport (if there is one) of a world.
>>
>
>Ugh.  That's even worse, if the starport is active at all there _will_ be TL
>12-15 stuff findable near the port, regardless of the general wealth or TL of
>the world.
>
    If the world is poor, there may not be that many imports. Also if 
what you are saying
is true, then why aren't all worlds with starports at tech 15?






From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 19:36:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Mon Aug 19 18:36:56 2002
Subject: [TML] Tech Levels (was warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE)
References: <20020819183838.821F82798A@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D617004.4040806@usisp.com>

>
>
>ps.  Totally as an aside, and not aimed at anyone in particular, but
>the list in general...I get the impression that many people on the TML
>aren't actually playing Traveller. They are just talking about it, and
>that is a shame! Traveller is, IMO, a game meant to be played, not
>just discussed or analysed.  It's starting to feel more like we're a
>bunch of baseball fans sitting around arguing over whether this dead
>guy or that dead guy was a better hitter, whether the designated
>hitter rule is ruining the game, or the ramifications of the infield
>fly rule on the little-game theory of baseball. Jimminy!  <g>
>
>Seriously, I think everyone on the list should find (or start) a
>Traveller game and play the game. Whether face to face, online, or
>even solo,  *playing* Traveller is what it's all about.
>
    Actually, this is how I play Traveller. I have noone to play with, 
and if I
wanted to play solo, I would be writing fiction about what my characters
are doing ( nearly done with chapter one ). I make up house rules to 
suit me,
and I share my ideas with people who might have a passing interest with 
them.
My rockhead and gearhead tendancies are from trying to develope a nice
background for my characters.
    Perhaps this is why others are on this list.
    My ftf gaming is usually reserved for miniatures ( civil war is fave 
) or
model railroading ( @ tech level 5 )

Getting crotchety in my old age :-P




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 19:38:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Mon Aug 19 18:38:34 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
References: <200208140119.MSJ03121@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <20020814182045.B22124@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D5C63AA.6020706@usisp.com>
Message-ID: <3D6170F4.2050407@usisp.com>

>
>
>> A detailed and self-consistent set of rules for NPC psychology in
>> general would be handy, including motivations, internal conflicts,
>> biases, thought patterns, and personality traits that aren't simple
>> advantages or disadvantages.  Non-human psychology as well, of course.
>>
>> Well, where is it?  I want it yesterday! 
>
    The Wuthering Heights Role Playing Game on the freerpg webring might
be a good place to harvest some ideas on how that might be done.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 19:40:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 19 18:40:40 2002
Subject: [TML] The Frontier Wars; The other side of the hill
Message-ID: <19a.740bea7.2a92f766@aol.com>

 >    Now, keeping my flight of fancy in mind, who absorbed whose territory?  
 >Did the Zho's take over Imperial colonies, or did they take back their own 
 >territories, or did they do both of those things?  Who should be griping 
 >about whom?  Who has the better claim?

Based on the canon I have available to me (Supplement 11, which I've already 
quoted), the Imperials do.  But of course, a "flight of fancy" is the purpose 
of an RPG, and the incidents you cite are valid.

 >Suddenly things aren't so black and 
 >white anymore, are they?  Rather, it's a pretty muddle of gray.  Binary 
 >thinking is really boring.

I've never thought so.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 19:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 19 18:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] talking vs playing
Message-ID: <1be.b57b1ee.2a92faa4@aol.com>

 >I get the impression that many people on the TML
 >aren't actually playing Traveller. They are just talking about it, and
 >that is a shame!

Well, yeah -- but it seems to me that that is _how_ some people play it.  
I've seen D&D groups spend four hours rolling up characters, and then go 
home.  What can you say?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 19:59:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Mon Aug 19 18:59:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : Autodocs are starting to appear
Message-ID: <000001c247ed$096e25b0$319d67cb@robert>

Jens Rydholm wrote:-
> At what TL would one expect to see automated emergency surgeons?

TTL 12. Progress in robotics and imaging/diagnostic tech are the main
requirements.

Non-portable versions could be available a tech-level earlier.


Robert O'Connor
Medico, gamer


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 20:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Maksim-Smelchak)
Date: Mon Aug 19 19:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Talking vs Playing games...
In-Reply-To: <1be.b57b1ee.2a92faa4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPIEALEGAA.max200@lanset.com>

I've found that gaming becomes more focussed if you take a break every few
weeks and play a "beer & pretzels" kind of game. When my group becomes
listless, I call the day and we play something less mindconsuming. The next
week, I provide a lot of background and story before we get back to gaming.

Cheers,
Maksim-Smelchak.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Flykiller@aol.com
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 6:52 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] talking vs playing
 >I get the impression that many people on the TML
 >aren't actually playing Traveller. They are just talking about it, and
 >that is a shame!

Well, yeah -- but it seems to me that that is _how_ some people play it.
I've seen D&D groups spend four hours rolling up characters, and then go
home. What can you say?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 20:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon Aug 19 19:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Rockheads
In-Reply-To: <3D6156E2.1030402@usisp.com>
Message-ID: <20020820021718.11ED32793A@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/19/02 at 04:36 PM,  richard honeycutt <richard@usisp.com> said:



>    An admirable method, but one that does not specifically address
>what  I perceive
>as the weak points of the standard uwp.
>    1. Starport types are pure random with no consideration of tech
>or  population.
>    2. Population is pure random with no consideration to local
>enviroment.
>    3. Tech level is governed mainly by starport (pure random) with 
>relatively little
>        influence by any other statistic except lack of suitability
>for  colonization and
>        even giving a +1 dm for a small population.

Have you ever looked at JimV's Alternate UWP Generation Rules that are
buried in the Galactic 2.4 program? If you have Galactic, go to "About
this Program" on the main menu, then "Homebrew rules."  He addresses
the problems you have.

Eris

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 20:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug 19 19:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] talking vs playing
Message-ID: <200208200231.NDP00134@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Flykiller says
>I've seen D&D groups spend four hours rolling up characters, 
>and then go home.  What can you say?

I remember in the early days, we would roll characters in 
about 20 minutes, spend about the same time getting 
equipment, and play until dawn.

Nowadays, if I play, we spend two hours rolling characters 
and talking about the good old days.  Another two hours of 
equipment and talk, and then the adventure starts, and 
devolves into a "remember when you..."

We talk until dawn.  I *still* enjoy that.
________________
Gee, I hope Ted Williams saw
Vanilla Sky before he signed that contract...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 20:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug 19 19:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <F2159TBbA4Y9Nt16gM40000c7e9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020819223139.0284b008@192.168.0.1>

At 01:57 PM 8/19/2002 +0000, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
[snip]
>  Chicago has a WW2 German U-boat.

I was in Chicago a few weeks ago and got to go on the tour of the U-505.
It's a short tour....You enter just forward of the aft torpedo room and 
exit just aft of the forward torpedo room.
It's big on the outside, but when you account for the double hull, fuel, 
batteries, and the torpedo load (and those are big torpedos), that doesn't 
leave much room.

Hot bunking with food stores everywhere, at least in the beginning of the 
trip...
Not the accommodations you would want for a long space tour.

Now, probably standard for small Terran craft during the early Interstellar 
Wars...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ferret: Chaos with fur, claws and an odd smell.
          http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 20:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug 19 19:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Solomani influences
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020819223855.026baeb8@mail.charter.net>

Seeing http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/solcourier.htm 
reminded of my trip to the Boston Science Museum yesterday.
That's where I saw the prototype autodoc on display.

One of the other exhibits flashes a very bright image in your eyes, for 
experiments with after images.

The image burned into your brain...the Solomani cross in circle as shown on 
the ship Jesse designed...



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
And, isn't sanity really just a one trick pony anyway? I mean, all you get
is one trick: rational thinking. But when you're good and crazy, ooo hoo
hoo, the sky's the limit! - The Tick  http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 20:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Mon Aug 19 19:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
References: <20020819200248.4609.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3D61AD22.2A640160@mindspring.com>

Paul Walker wrote:
> 
> --- "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> > At 7:11 PM -0700 8/18/02, Paul Walker wrote:
> > >--- Eris Reddoch <erisred@telocity.com> wrote:
> > >>  On 08/17/02 at 12:27 PM,  alan spik
> > >>  <babyduck@mindspring.com> said:
> > >>
> > >>  >No hot bunking except in emergencies.
> > >>
> > >>  I'd like to point out that if you have gravity
> > >>  control, you don't have
> > >>  to have "bunks", containment webbing will do.
> > Stack
> > >>  'em up like
> > >>  cordwood! <g>
> > >
> > >While I wouldn't deny the legitimate gripes of
> > those
> > >who have spent lengthy time on a sailing vessel, I
> > am
> > >surprised that no one has mentioned the fact that
> > the
> > >crew onboard a starship doesn't have a deck to
> > visit.
> > >There is something to be said to being able to go
> > >"above" and have the open sky above you that you
> > can't
> > >do on a starship.  Still, you need to have a
> > certain
> > >amount of "personal" space, but the open deck is
> > >something.
> >
> > Which would be like being on a submarine.  Of course
> > those had the
> > most cramped spaces in the modern navy?  I sort of
> > think a modern
> > aircraft carrier is probably a good model for crew
> > space...
> 
> Perhaps one of our ex-Navy brethren can enlighten us,
> but I doubt Subs spend 7+ days at a time under the
> surface of the ocean blue.  I would be curious as to
> how much deck time an average sailor and/or submariner
> gets in our (or any for that matter) Navy.
> 


IIRC the patrol of a sub was ~90 days of that time the average
submariner could expect to see 0 hrs of sky, ocean. A lucky? few on the
sail would get to see these sights until the boat submerged ~3 hrs after
leaving the pier and when it returned to port. On rare occasions the sub
would surface at sea and those same lucky? few would get to see more sky
and sea. Sometimes this would be the occasion of exciting interactions
with the locals. According to my bubblehead BIL.
On the USS Wichita I saw sky and sea every day. I could spend several
hrs a day lounging watching it instead of the ships entertainment
channel. 
-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith,
I consider a capacity for it terrifying and absolutely vile!
                         -Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 20:59:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug 19 19:59:05 2002
Subject: [TML] View before eating
In-Reply-To: <00f901c247b5$29c31a60$8e2ef7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020819225650.02a5eeb0@192.168.0.1>

At 03:18 PM 8/19/2002 -0400, Fred Ramen wrote:
[snip]
 > As per our
>agreement, the Sum of Cr 5000, ten boxes of Aramis cigars, and a     case of
>Zilan wine are now payable to me on demand, which you may consider this note
>to         be.
>
>     I remain, etc.,
>
>     Larsen E. Whipsnade
>
>     PS Do not substitute Garda-Villisian tobacco for the cigars as I am no
>fool.

Thanks! I just added plentiful, low quality tobacco as an export crop to 
the Garda-Vilis Landgrab! :-)

Probably popular in the low income sections of Vilis' urban centers.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Mort Sahl: General, aren't you supporting Castro by smoking that Havana cigar?
Alexander Haig: I prefer to think of it as burning his crops to the ground.
(from an interview of Mort Sahl on National Public Radio, 23nov91)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 21:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Mon Aug 19 20:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Technology Marches On - Traveller-like APCs Arrive?
Message-ID: <20020819224829.a08fd142371542db9811e428fc2e22d1.in@keywest.kennett.net>

Well, it did say it was for LIGHT INFANTRY....

Unfortunately, since CoS Eric Shinseki is probably hoping to run for office
when he retires (The best explanation for the new LAV-type vehicles, the
questionable Medium Brigade Concept, the idiotic decision to give the entire
Army berets like its a bunch of Third World thug-army...), it will no doubt
this procurement will be botched.

Can they put into production the M-113 IFV variant they once considered?

Perhaps they are hoping the Air Force is going to procure more of the latest
version of the Hercules...

C.T.

>And, according to a former paratrooper who's opinion I trust, it's a POS. 
>It's half-again as heavy and twice as complicated as the other APC it was 
>compared to, the Gavin II (a newer version of the M-113), It can only be 
>carried in a C-130 if it's totally unloaded, no ammo, no fuel, no spares, and 
>no crew, and if the air is let out of the tires. It's incidence of breakdown 
>was almost twice as often as the Gavin due almost entirely to the newly 
>designed transmission system. And, whereas the Gavin already has plenty of 
>spare parts in the Army's logistics chain, and the mechanics know how to fix 
>anything that might go wrong with it, the Stryker would require a whole new 
>system of spare parts be acquired and all the mechanics be retrained.
>
>What the Stryker is is a project whereby soon-to-be-retired Army generals and 
>colonels ensure that the military arms manufacturers they are soon to be 
>employed by get fat new contracts.
>
>The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette has this article on the Stryker. One of the 
>Pennsylvania National Guard units is one of the first to be equipped with 
>this new toy.
>http://www.post-gazette.com/nation/20020320mobilenat4p4.asp
>
>Doug Grimes


"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 21:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Mon Aug 19 20:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
References: <20020819165435.1DFB3279BB@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D61B2F1.AE7BBD27@pobox.com>

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> ...
> To your list, let me add the USS Alabama in Mobile Bay. ...

And, while we're touring the South, the USS Kidd , DD-661,
http://www.usskidd.com/

WKH


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 21:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Aug 19 20:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Technology Marches On - Traveller-like APCs Arrive?
In-Reply-To: <20020819224829.a08fd142371542db9811e428fc2e22d1.in@keywest.kennett.net>
References: <20020819224829.a08fd142371542db9811e428fc2e22d1.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <1029813197.3d61b3cdeef27@www.paradise.net.nz>

Quoting Cheng Tseng <cxt217@kennett.net>:

> Well, it did say it was for LIGHT INFANTRY....
> 
> Unfortunately, since CoS Eric Shinseki is probably hoping to run for
> office
> when he retires (The best explanation for the new LAV-type vehicles,
> the
> questionable Medium Brigade Concept, the idiotic decision to give the
> entire
> Army berets like its a bunch of Third World thug-army...), it will no
> doubt
> this procurement will be botched.

Hey! Our army is not a third-world thug army! 
I doubt the British see theirs as being one, either.

-- 
Rupert Boleyn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 21:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Mon Aug 19 20:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Clean data
In-Reply-To: <003001c247c6$355ed7e0$8d30f7c2@imogen>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHGEDKIOAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>



I've been looking at the  quality  of  the  sector  data  in  the
electronic files on the net recently.  I started by comparing the
electronic version of the Spinward Marches  to  the  original  CT
Supplement 3.  In addition to obveous typos there are a number of
cases where the original data  is  not  valid  according  to  the
standard system generation rules ... and the  electronic  version
has the nearest legal value.

Now I'm planning on  performing  a  data  clearing  exercise  and
posting the  results  in  a  number  of  different  formats  (for
Heaven&Earth,  World  Builders   Deluxe,   TrTools,   etc).   I'm
proposing that (for circa 1105) we start with Supplement  3  plus
the stellar data from Spinward Marches Campaign ... but take  the
*corrections* given in the HES  file  for  *physical*  stats.  In
other words accept that while the *social* stats in Supplement  3
may not be generatable by  the  standard  rules  they  are  still
canon.  The supporting argument for this is that (IIRC)  GDW  has
stated in  the  past  that  some  of  the  sectors  (older,  more
established sectors) were generated with houserule  additions  to
social stats.

I'd like the list's opinion: if sector files were made  available
that had been 'cleaned' in this way  (and  assuming  people  were
confident in the accuracy of  the  cleaning  process)  would  you
accept them as definative?

(I also realise that cleaning sectors  other  than  the  Spinward
Marches would be problematic as there is a  lack  of  alternative
sources.)

Regards PLST

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

I tend to think of hard copy stuff my players are liable to have as
more canonical then anything else, after that native sector and so forth 
data that comes with software -- always reserving the GM privilege
of altering anything I want.

Personally, I like to see a header(s) showing what the darn 
house rules are.  Problem areas, according to commonly agreed 
on criteria would be nice too.

**********************************************
Data info

Date produced *******
Time line date   *******
produced by jml

Based on Rice Papers
Pixie-nuke filtering  
	No pop 3 world can have better then a SP C
	No pop 1 world can have other then a  SP X
**********************************************

**********************************************
Danger Will Robinson

Foo 0104 has a type X Spaceport and TL 15
Bar 0505 has a Size 0 and Hyd A

and so on

**********************************************

Some sort of vaguely canonical historic
data of the Spinward marches -- Granddad 
to date of course -- would be a fastinating
read.

jml

__________________
"Truth is like falsehood  . . ..only correstor."

jmlotzn1@pacbell.net
__________________


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 21:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Mon Aug 19 20:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Technology Marches On - Traveller-like APCs Arrive?
In-Reply-To: <1029813197.3d61b3cdeef27@www.paradise.net.nz>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHKEDKIOAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

:
:
 (The best explanation for the new LAV-type vehicles,
> the
> questionable Medium Brigade Concept, 

Did anyone else look at the whole medium Brigade concept 
and think if you squint those sure look like Army issue
Marines up to and including ripping off their LAV's

jml

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 21:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Mon Aug 19 20:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The Frontier Wars; The other side of the hill
References: <19a.740bea7.2a92f766@aol.com>
Message-ID: <010801c247f9$eba76480$7400a8c0@matt>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
>>    Now, keeping my flight of fancy in mind, who absorbed whose
>> territory?
>  >Did the Zho's take over Imperial colonies, or did they take back
> their own  >territories, or did they do both of those things?  Who
> should be griping  >about whom?  Who has the better claim?
>
> Based on the canon I have available to me (Supplement 11, which I've
> already quoted), the Imperials do.  But of course, a "flight of
> fancy" is the purpose of an RPG, and the incidents you cite are valid.

Hmmm, Supplement 11... thats Library Data N-Z... *Imperial* Library data,
with an Imperial slant on things...

Of course it would say the Imperium wuz robbed...

:-)

Matt




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 21:32:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Mon Aug 19 20:32:13 2002
Subject: Vulcan bits - was RE: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F1683@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <000101c247fa$282fe9e0$6501a8c0@Darla>

There is a Vulcan on display at the Castle Air Museum near Merced, CA.
Quite a striking looking airplane.  

I wonder how large a donation would motivate them to let you make a
casting of the stick grip?

TWB

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com [mailto:tml-
> admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of DeGraff, Jesse
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 11:14 AM
> To: 'tml@travellercentral.com'
> Subject: Vulcan bits - was RE: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly
of
> the beast (long)
> 
> > As I mentioned before, in the UK it's possible to buy a lot
> > of interesting "out of date" items.  If the list could put
> > the money together, and get a UK buyer, we could, say,
> > purchase a Vulcan bomber.
> 
> If we DO purchase a Vulcan bomber (or anyone on the list has one ;) I
need
> to pour a silicone mold of the control stick.  It was used in the film
> "Aliens", and I could easily sell copies to prop collectors :D
> 
> Jesse
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 21:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Mon Aug 19 20:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
References: <20020819021101.34955.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com> <p04330104b986f5047d97@[143.232.119.186]> <3D615154.80806@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <3D619EF3.5030703@usisp.com>

>  Probably, note, too, a modern Aircraft carrier has *scads* of room 
> for rec space...remember Roger Staubach kept up his throwing arm on 
> the deck of the carrier he was staioned on. 


    But if you got hurt playing tackle football on deck, you got written up
for damaging government property, same thing if you got badly sunburned.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 21:40:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Mon Aug 19 20:40:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
References: <20020819200248.4609.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3D619E69.4090003@usisp.com>

>
>
>
>Perhaps one of our ex-Navy brethren can enlighten us,
>but I doubt Subs spend 7+ days at a time under the
>surface of the ocean blue.  I would be curious as to
>how much deck time an average sailor and/or submariner
>gets in our (or any for that matter) Navy.
>
    I was on the Kitty Hawk cv-63, but one of the IC men I had to work with
Was on one of the  subs. He said the stayed under months at a time. When 
they
came into port and opened the hatches, you could see the fumes and 
dander fly out.
His wife had to burn all his uniforms because the smell wouldn't come out.
He never noticed the smell because it built up over a long period of time.
Thats as close to deep space travel humans do.
    I got lots of deck time because of my job on the flight deck....even 
when I didn't
want it..oh well hazardous pay was nice.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 21:41:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Mon Aug 19 20:41:38 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast
References: <183.cf9fb30.2a92f333@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D61A487.1060406@usisp.com>

>
>
>
>I spent six and a half years on a carrier.  It was only 20,000 tons or so by 
>Traveller standards, and heavily compartmented, but even so some areas were 
>very wide open.  At Christmas time when no-one was around you could stand at 
>the aft end of the starboard 2nd deck passage and see half the length of the 
>ship.  In engineering the machinery spaces were large and open.  Some of the 
>shaft alleys were very large and wide-open, but were virtually unvisited.
>
>I'd been on the ship for four years when I went forward into the airdale 
>berthing looking for something.  I got completely lost, and had to look at 
>the maps on the walls to find my way out.
>
    There is  one thing I can add to this, as I was on cv-63 for 4 1/2 
years...
While I slept in a large 130 person berthing compartment ( my rack was 
directly
under no. 3 wire in arresting gear ), I rarely spent my off time there. 
When I
wasn't at work, I hung out in my shop where I kept most of my personal 
stuff.
 Of course I was lucky that I could have a shop that I only had to share 
with
at most, 3 other guys.
    So working areas can count as personal space just as much as your bunk,




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 21:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Mon Aug 19 20:46:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <20020819222844.14677.qmail@web20414.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000301c247fc$35581190$6501a8c0@Darla>

Since golf was mentioned, why is it that a golfer needs absolute silence
to strike a stationary ball in front of him, while a ballplayer is
expected to hit a ball being thrown past (and sometimes AT) him at 90MPH
or so while 50,000 spectators scream at the top of their lungs?

ObTrav: Will popular sports in the Traveller universe be more or less
violent than those we know today?

TWB


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 21:48:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Mon Aug 19 20:48:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Damned Silly Questions
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHKEAGIOAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <000401c247fc$78e0bc00$6501a8c0@Darla>

I no longer feel silly that I allowed a group of players to name their
ship the "Broken Wind".

TWB


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 21:53:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 19 20:53:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
Message-ID: <bc.2affffd2.2a9316ec@aol.com>

 >My cousin served on the carrier USS America during the Gulf War.  Here was 
the
 >size of his "stateroom" ;)
 
 "About 6'5"x 18" x 24""

Yep.  I slept in one of those for six years.  Oh, and I had to lift it, with 
all my stuff, off of the deck every morning.  My berthing area was in the 
fantail, and when the ship made 30+ knots the entire aft end bounced around 
like a model T on a rough road.  I liked it -- it helped me sleep -- but 
no-one else did.  Immediately above us was an airdale sheet metal shop with 
this huge shearing machine that could cut a piece of metal 20 feet long -- 
and their working hours were 2200 to 0600.  I'd be in a deep sleep at 0200 
when all of a sudden there would be this tremendous boom and the deck would 
jump about a quarter inch.

And every single time a plane would come in for a landing the overpressure 
would slam open the door to the head.  And all the while I'd be thinking, "Is 
this the time he misses the deck and bellies out on the round-down and dumps 
a thousand pounds of burning jet fuel into my space?"  Whoosh.  "Safe this 
time."  Incoming aircraft:  "Is this the time etc".  For six years.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 22:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Aug 19 21:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Solomani influences
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020819223855.026baeb8@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <B9870F7C.6A360%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/19/02 7:41 PM, Mark Urbin at urbin@bigfoot.com wrote:

> Seeing http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/solcourier.ht=
m
> reminded of my trip to the Boston Science Museum yesterday.
> That's where I saw the prototype autodoc on display.
>=20
> One of the other exhibits flashes a very bright image in your eyes, for
> experiments with after images.
>=20
> The image burned into your brain...the Solomani cross in circle as shown =
on
> the ship Jesse designed...
>=20

When we went on vacation this summer, we only stayed in SolSec approved
hotels.

see: http://solsec.org/media/sol_hotel.jpg

Tod

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 22:13:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 19 21:13:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Not So Silly Questions
Message-ID: <70.21865794.2a931b86@aol.com>

 >A silly thought in answer to a silly question: Have you considered using 
 >the names of some of the T.S. Eliot cats?

"The Naming of Ships is a difficult matter,
  It isn't just one of your holiday games;
You may think at first I'm as mad as a hatter
When I tell you a ship must have THREE DIFFERENT NAMES."

I was on the USS Carl Vinson, CVN-70.  That is its official name.  It's 
official nickname was, originally, Starship (ripoff), but the Enterprise got 
mad so it was changed to Battlestar (barf).  I have cups with both.  The 
website now says its official nickname is Gold Eagle (whatever).  But we 
squids always just called it the Chucky V.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 22:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon Aug 19 21:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <000301c247fc$35581190$6501a8c0@Darla>
Message-ID: <20020820041825.88C7427A02@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/19/02 at 10:46 PM,  "Thomas Barnes" <twb3@charter.net> said:

>Since golf was mentioned, why is it that a golfer needs absolute
>silence to strike a stationary ball in front of him, while a
>ballplayer is expected to hit a ball being thrown past (and sometimes
>AT) him at 90MPH or so while 50,000 spectators scream at the top of
>their lungs?

Because the fiction we maintain is that golfers, and their observers,
are ladies and gentlemen, while baseball players, and their fans, are
the hoi poli. <g>

>ObTrav: Will popular sports in the Traveller universe be more or less
>violent than those we know today?

IMTU, it's about the same. Gravball is like handball not a team sport,
but there are team sports similar to football (in several of it's
forms), basketball, baseball/cricket variants, tennis and golf...among
others. 

Eris

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 22:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon Aug 19 21:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEIMEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEIMEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <m37kimm9zr.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Terry Carlino" <carlino@cox.net> writes:
>
> The quarters shown on the TV show are picayune compared to the real
> quarters of a U.S. Navy Carrier captain.

That's because, AFAICT, a USN carrier captain wields far more power
than any Star Trek `captain.'  But I could be biased:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Democracy is a form of government that substitutes election by the
incompetent many for appointment by the corrupt few.   --G.B. Shaw

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 22:49:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon Aug 19 21:49:13 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <000301c247fc$35581190$6501a8c0@Darla>
References: <000301c247fc$35581190$6501a8c0@Darla>
Message-ID: <m31y8um9sh.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Thomas Barnes" <twb3@charter.net> writes:
>
> Since golf was mentioned, why is it that a golfer needs absolute
> silence to strike a stationary ball in front of him, while a
> ballplayer is expected to hit a ball being thrown past (and
> sometimes AT) him at 90MPH or so while 50,000 spectators scream at
> the top of their lungs?

'Cause golf requires thought & concentration, while baseball requires
wallop?  If a golfer had the accuracy a batter does, he'd never win
the Drunken Churchwomen's Tournament...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Democracy consists of choosing your dictators, after they've told you what
you think it is you want to hear.                             --Alan Coren

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 22:50:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon Aug 19 21:50:32 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <3D617255.1090908@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <200208191429.NCQ00397@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <3D617255.1090908@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <m3wuqmkv5r.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:
> 
> Actually, other federal agencies can purchase planes from the
> boneyards, and until the mid to late 70's so could citizens.
> 
> Alas, they were being purchased here, gassed up, flown south and
> often caught coming here again, full of pot and/or coke.
> 
> After a few of these episodes, they suspended civilian sales of
> aircraft.

Sigh.  Yet _another_ casualty of the drug war.  Y'all realise that the
various Prohibitions have been behind more nonsense than just about
anything else in American history?  Sigh...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
You never need a weapon until you need one badly.  --Jay Maynard

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 23:04:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Aug 19 22:04:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
Message-ID: <20020820043646.55829.qmail@web11308.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
> Ref:  "Have you ever heard that high whine with the
> increasing pitch that a camera flash makes before it
> is fully charged?"
> Player:  "Yes."
> Ref:  "You're hearing that right now."

This is even worse if you happen to know about some of
the things that need that sort of power build-up to
trigger. <eg> Just think of all the nasties that need
a pulse of high voltage, high current power. 
Everything from jury-rigged EMP bombs to homevuilt
nukes.
END QUOTE

Incidently NEVER NEVER pull open a flash, charge it up
and then touch it! The feeling returned to my hand
about a day later! I was twelve at the time ;)

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://digital.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Digital How To
- Get the best out of your PC!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 23:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Simon Brodie)
Date: Mon Aug 19 22:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Talking vs Playing games...
References: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPIEALEGAA.max200@lanset.com>
Message-ID: <005601c2480a$f8ac27e0$0568ff3e@bloodyhellfire>

I always find that Paranoia is an excellent game for your players to unwind
and relax to when you want a week off from the 'heavy stuff'.

And the benefit to you as a GM (if you want to be really sneaky) is to play
the paranoia at a critical pause in your Traveller game.  This means that
after playing Paranoia, the players will (unconsciously) be very, very
careful and suspicious.

:-)

Simon

----- Original Message -----
From: "Maksim-Smelchak" <max200@lanset.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: 20 August 2002 2:52 AM
Subject: [TML] Talking vs Playing games...


> I've found that gaming becomes more focussed if you take a break every few
> weeks and play a "beer & pretzels" kind of game. When my group becomes
> listless, I call the day and we play something less mindconsuming. The
next
> week, I provide a lot of background and story before we get back to
gaming.
>
> Cheers,
> Maksim-Smelchak.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Flykiller@aol.com
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 6:52 PM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] talking vs playing
>  >I get the impression that many people on the TML
>  >aren't actually playing Traveller. They are just talking about it, and
>  >that is a shame!
>
> Well, yeah -- but it seems to me that that is _how_ some people play it.
> I've seen D&D groups spend four hours rolling up characters, and then go
> home. What can you say?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 23:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 19 22:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
Message-ID: <89.1c8c270d.2a932dac@aol.com>

 >I saw less time above deck on a carrier than I ever did on smaller ships
 >(frigates, destroyers or cruisers.) This was due to the fact that "outside"
 >is almost exclusively the domain of the flight deck crew. Submariners spend
 >very littler time either on the surface or in port (while deployed.) When on
 >the surface they have almost no "deck space" nor are very many sailors
 >allowed on deck at that time.

I used to go up on vulture row on the 09 level to watch the planes land.  It 
was something to do.  One day they halted flight ops and called an all-hands 
FOD walkdown.  I didn't go, I was too tired.  Some seamen were up there with 
me, and they didn't go either.  The Air Boss on the 010 level saw us and was 
wroth at our lack of participation.  He sent a messenger to collect us, and 
when we arrived the assistant chewed us out for about a minute.  The seamen 
were terrified, and he let them go, but I stood there non-chalantly and just 
said "yes sir".  The Air Boss didn't like my attitude, and said so, telling 
his assistant to retain me for more serious chewing after he finished with 
another matter.  The assistant looked me over, and noticed the minimag 
flashlight I had hung on my belt.  As he presented me to the Air Boss he 
said, "He has one of those flashlights, he's one of the good guys."  The Air 
Boss took note of my minimag, and I could see on his face he decided to 
change his approach with me.  He told me to come stand in his place and look 
down on the flight deck, while he stood behind me and explained to me why FOD 
walkdowns were so important.

I stood in the window of the 010 level and looked down.  It was stunning.  
The sky was brilliant blue, the ocean lovely green.  I hadn't been above 
decks in weeks.  The bow was slowly and majestically rising and falling in 
the waves.  The ship's bell was rung, and I suddenly wondered why that hated 
bell didn't blast and pain my ears as it always did -- I looked at the 
overhead speaker, and saw that _this_ one had a volume control on it, and as 
I watched the assistant turned it down even lower.  As the Air Boss's voice 
buzzed quietly in my ears about the dangers FOD posed to aircraft, the Air 
Boss noticed something he wanted done, and he quietly spoke directly to the 
entire flight deck crew through a microphone.  Far below me I saw dozens of 
men running slowly across the flight deck to do his bidding.  I was high 
above the world, in a quiet and air-conditioned space with clean polite men 
of power.  I felt like a god on Mount Olympus, and I stood in silent 
contemplation of what I was seeing.

I barely heard the Air Boss finish his dissertation on FOD, and I just caught 
him saying "I hope you see things differently now."  Looking down on the 
world, I said very firmly, "Yes."  Then I turned to this man who judged me by 
my flashlight, and I looked him straight in the eye and said with great 
conviction, "Yes sir, I do."  He was taken aback by my sudden sincerity, and 
after a moment dismissed me without another word.

I went back down to the noise and dirt and heat and sleeplessness of 
engineering and the crew.  I didn't visit vulture row again for years.  And 
every time that cursed bell blasted in my ears I remembered that volume 
control up on the 010 level.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 23:32:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Mon Aug 19 22:32:05 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <20020820011937.b439407d736f4a22ad30eb9902397dec.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:
>> 
>> Actually, other federal agencies can purchase planes from the
>> boneyards, and until the mid to late 70's so could citizens.
>> 
>> Alas, they were being purchased here, gassed up, flown south and
>> often caught coming here again, full of pot and/or coke.
>> 
>> After a few of these episodes, they suspended civilian sales of
>> aircraft.
>
>Sigh.  Yet _another_ casualty of the drug war.  Y'all realise that the
>various Prohibitions have been behind more nonsense than just about
>anything else in American history?  Sigh...

Well, I am not going to support a change in domestic policy that is going to
fund rebels undermining countries in South America.

C.T.


"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 23:35:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 19 22:35:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
Message-ID: <5a.103459f2.2a932ed7@aol.com>

 >Really junior officers can actually be relegated to bunk rooms, each having
 >no more than eight bunks. These are generally used only for black shoe
 >officers (surface warfare officers who run the ships systems.) No flight
 >officer, or even flight support officer would ever be relegated to one of
 >these.

Some of those flight officer cabins are at the head of a catapault.  Try 
sleeping there during flight ops.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 23:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 19 22:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <12f.162c539b.2a93319b@aol.com>

 >>>(the vegetarians, anywa--I understand the Hivers had some success in
 >>>modifying their disease). 
 >>>
 >
 >    Do the K'kree add animal byproducts in the form of ground meal to 
 >their feed?
 >Sorta like a K'kree soylent green?

Do you think this will lead to Mad K'kree Disease?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 19 23:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 19 22:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockhead
Message-ID: <17f.cfe7ed1.2a9332d3@aol.com>

 >    Perhaps the 'mature' dm for tech could be applied to the 'main', and 
 >the 'frontier'
 >dm could be applied could be applied to worlds more than 6 parsecs from 
 >the 'main'.
 >Could that interpretation work?

Well, factually, since you're the referee, then you can just up and say that 
it works.  I don't think it's possible to discuss much of Traveller in any 
scientific sense -- most of it simply doesn't exist, so it's like trying to 
decide how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.  So long as the rules 
are reasonable, internally consistent, and make for a good RPG, then that 
should be enough.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 00:08:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ken Murphy)
Date: Mon Aug 19 23:08:05 2002
Subject: [TML] The return of Disentagrators, Dragon style
Message-ID: <F30XnnGvgntdb2HVZSO0001787c@hotmail.com>

   [Tap-Tap] Hello? [Tap-Tap-Tap]
   Hello?Is this thing on? [Tap-Tap]....
   Hi ya Frankie, did you ever successfully receive my email address?
   Awaiting the previously mentioned article with fingers tightly crossed :)
   Thanks in advance.
  -Ken Murphy-
   aka
   MurfNMurf@aol.com
   or
   MurfNMurf@hotmail.com



_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 01:04:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 20 00:04:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
References: <12f.162c539b.2a93319b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D61EEE2.7F552888@wave.co.nz>


Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>  >    Do the K'kree add animal byproducts in the form of ground meal to
>  >their feed?
>  >Sorta like a K'kree soylent green?
>
> Do you think this will lead to Mad K'kree Disease?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
And how would this be different from now??
Really, how much more mad can they get?

Jonathan



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 04:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Aug 20 03:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020815232004.009f60d0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20820.030913.4C8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> At 02:36 PM 8/15/02 -0700, you wrote:
>>John T. Kwon writes:
>>
>> > Actually, if you've been to either the Army or Marine Sniper
>> > training, I would regard you as less likely to do something
>> > stupid with a rifle than almost anyone else.
>>
>>Well, being selected for sniper training does generally imply that the 
> people
>>doing the selection think you have the mentality to be able to look closely 
> at
>>people and then shoot them, which is one of those mental traits that make 
>>other
>>people nervous.
>
> Not just that, but evaluate and choose the person who will be killed.  You 
> have to be able to say "I will kill that Colonel first, then the radioman." 
> and do it.

I assume that's because you *have* to get the Colonel, but getting the
radionan is "merely" very important.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 04:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Long)
Date: Tue Aug 20 03:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Playing or discussing
In-Reply-To: <20020819190005.4218.86000.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c24835$89bb1140$8f76063e@MakaiSoft.com>

> From: "Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>
> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 13:38:37 -0500
>
> ps.  Totally as an aside, and not aimed at anyone in particular, but
> the list in general...I get the impression that many people on the TML
> aren't actually playing Traveller. They are just talking about it, and
> that is a shame! Traveller is, IMO, a game meant to be played, not
> just discussed or analysed.
>
Well, I don't know about anyone else, but I have to admit that I'm not
playing at all... and haven't for many years. Until quite recently I was
living in the Arabian Gulf; there aren't many FLGS there (I never found ONE,
in fact) and a similar number of players.

Now I'm back in the UK (and currently unemployed) I have more time to start
playing with the bits that can be done solo - rockheading, gearheading,
etc - until I can find anyone else to play FTF.

Alas, there are also a very small number of FLGS in my home town too. there
is ONE (listed in the S.J. Games database) but they stock Warhammer and
(some) D20 (fortunately they had a copy of GURPS:TS which I snarfed at
once - but that was the only GURPS title)

Anyone in the Somerset/West of England area wants to play Traveller?

Andy
--
 Andrew Long            Email   AndrewGLong@Yahoo.com (Preferred)
 1 Court Hill                   AndyLong@Ecossetel.com
 Taunton                Phone   +44 (7817) 533382 (Mobile/UK)
 TA1 4SX                        +44 (1823) 337322 (Home/UK)
 England                        (+971 (50) 521 3651 Mobile/UAE)
--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 05:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Tue Aug 20 04:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Zhodani tech development (Was: Victory in the Frontier Wars)
In-Reply-To: <m3ptwerjfd.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <3D618968.15874.CCFF7C@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D62D35F.31040.5D5ED1F@localhost>

On 19 Aug 2002, at 8:51, Robert Uhl wrote:

> "Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> writes:

> > cooperative communities (one might also mention the mass extinction
> > of over 50% of native species and the total destruction of our
> > megafauna, but one may assume that future interstellar colonists
> > would be somewhat more environmentally aware).

> What, you mean indigenous peoples aren't gentle stewards of the
> environment?  The Thought Police will be by shortly to re-educate
> you:-)

They wiped out the Haast Eagle (imagine a 13kg eagle with a 3m wingspan 
and talons that would put a tiger to shame).


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 05:43:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Tue Aug 20 04:43:09 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <20020819231505.44062.qmail@web20419.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3D62D35F.15062.5D5ED15@localhost>

On 19 Aug 2002, at 16:15, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:

> >that Sweden swept down on anyone?
>
> Their last military adventurism was about 1740, but those "I Am Curious"
> movies from the 1960s nearly brought down western civilization. 

I'm still convinced that Abba constituted some form of violation of the 
Geneva conventions.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 06:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 20 05:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
Message-ID: <005401c24841$368bc940$81000140@k62500>

Hello Richard Honeycutt and all others on the board,

I spent 20-years in the USN, 4 subs, 1 sub tender, and various barracks. =
Reading through some of the related posts I will try to answer questions =
on accommodations and underway time.

 My first three subs were boomers (missile boats), USS T. A. Edison =
SSBN610, Sam Rayburn SSBN635, and USS Nathanael Greene SSBN636, standard =
routine was 3 months deployed and 3 months in port while the other crew =
did the opposite. A standard patrol cycle usually had the boat =
underwater for approximately 60 days, my longest sustained underway =
period was 74 days submerged. Of course the boat did come up to =
periscope depth and extend various masts, snorkel normally, and =
antennas. Most of the junior personnel had to hot rack (share the same =
bunk which is about 6'5"x 18" x 24"), which had a hinged bunk pan and =
storage space underneath. Other sleeping accommodations could be fitted =
between the missile tubes or in the torpedo room. The mess decks (chow =
hall) had about 8 tables and a steam table. 6 tables were for the crew, =
with 2 reserved for the Chiefs. Normally, we did not surface while on =
patrol, but occasionally the powers that be would give us a break give =
us a port visit.

The fast attack I was in, USS Shark SSN-591, was gone from port much =
more my boomer experience, but we were submerged for shorter periods and =
hit more foreign ports. My last bunk assignment was in a small space =
located in the torpedo. One end of the bunk had a lower ceiling than the =
rest, since I shared the space with part of the forward capstan motor. =
The crews mess (mess decks/chow hall) was about the same as on the =
boomers and was a multipurpose space between meals.

The USS Simon Lake AS33, was a submarine (actually any ship that pulled =
along side) tender stationed in the Med. Bunks still about the same size =
in a compartment holding an entire boomer crew in 1 space.

Barracks usually had anywhere from 1 to 4 people assigned depending on =
the base.

Hope this helps a little I have to get ready for work.

Tom Rux


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 06:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Aug 20 05:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <12f.162c539b.2a93319b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020820081059.026e2008@192.168.0.1>

At 01:46 AM 8/20/2002 -0400, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
>  >>>(the vegetarians, anywa--I understand the Hivers had some success in
>  >>>modifying their disease).
>  >    Do the K'kree add animal byproducts in the form of ground meal to
>  >their feed?
>  >Sorta like a K'kree soylent green?
>Do you think this will lead to Mad K'kree Disease?

Just how do you tell the difference between a Mad K'kree and sane one?



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
And, isn't sanity really just a one trick pony anyway? I mean, all you get
is one trick: rational thinking. But when you're good and crazy, ooo hoo
hoo, the sky's the limit! - The Tick  http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 06:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Angus McDonald)
Date: Tue Aug 20 05:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Tech Levelling
Message-ID: <OF8C3761CE.98563091-ONCA256C1B.0013F6C1@dnsalias.com>

To the lists below you can add high-tech catamarans:
http://www.dtic.mil/armylink/news/Oct2001/a20011022hsv-1test.html
http://www.nwdc.navy.mil/HSV/ConceptHSV.asp

>>>
A few years back we also exported enough steel into the USA to have a
whopping big tariff slapped on further imports. We also export information
(read inventions created here then sold off overseas).

Oh yes we also export troops (I read somewhere that more of our combat 
ready
troops are overseas than at home.)

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Stephen Tempest
Sent: Sunday, 18 August 2002 8:31 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Tech Levelling


Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com> writes:

>
>And what _does_ Australia export?  And to where?  I don't see very much 
of
>anything that has 'Made in Australia' on it...
>
Off the top of my head, I'd say wool, mutton, and minerals.  Oh, and
beer.  And daytime soap operas.  And Kylie Minogue.

Having looked it up, I see that I can add beef and wheat to that list,
and that Australia in 1990 exported about $40b from a GNP of $240b
(17%), mostly to Japan (27%) and the US (11%).

Stephen
<<<
---  from  ---
Angus McDonald
www.falkayn.com

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 06:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 20 05:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] GURPS Traveller LEH?  [Or LEW?]
Message-ID: <115c55d1161002.1161002115c55d@us.army.mil>

<<crossposted to JTAS General Discussion board>>

At 09:29:09, Aug 19, 2002, George A. Boyett (<<email address redacted>>) 
wrote:
> I hate to bring this up again, but the LEH is scheduled for release 
> next month.  Is preordering now opened?

When I first read that subject line, I saw it as "GURPS:  Traveller 
LEW," and was surprised to think that SJG had decided to publish a book 
detailing Larsen E. Whipsnade from the TML.... ;-)

"Equal Time for Fred Ramen!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 07:27:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue Aug 20 06:27:08 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020820011937.b439407d736f4a22ad30eb9902397dec.in@keywest.kennett.net>
References: <20020820011937.b439407d736f4a22ad30eb9902397dec.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <m3fzx9lkyl.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng) writes:
> 
> Well, I am not going to support a change in domestic policy that is
> going to fund rebels undermining countries in South America.

I would think that, once legal, it'd fund not much at all.  We're not
talking about products which are difficult to make, after all.  That's
one of the funny things about Prohibition: it makes the prohibited
much more valuable than it'd otherwise be.

I like to use the example of liquor distributors in the first
Prohibition: they were evil, murderous men.  But nowaday they tend to
be family men you'd not be surprised to see in church...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
His troops would follow him anywhere, but only out of curiosity.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 08:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 20 07:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <11c993911c783c.11c783c11c9939@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sunday, August 18, 2002 5:19 am
Subject: Re: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets

> "Peter Scarrott" <peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
> >
> > To expand on someone else's earlier comment (sorry hit 'delete' too
> > fast), the Consulate's main advantage is not having a large Empire
> > on any of it's other borders (ISTR).  Of all the large interstellar
> > governments we know about the Imperium is the only one with more
> > than one major neighbour.
> 
> I've ever assumed that it's just that we view the Far Future from the
> 3I's viewpoint, and that other empires live on the edges of the
> Imperium's neighbours.

One objection to the proposition that the Zhodani Consulate (ZC) has on 
its borders powerful organized states unknown to the 3I immediately 
comes to mind:

Presumably the 3I and ZC maintain diplomatic relations in peacetime.  
Wouldn't the Imperial embassy staff on Zhodane have encountered their 
colleagues from any other powerful (or even relatively minor) organized 
state that bordered the ZC?  Alternately, if a state of war prevented 
said other polities from maintaining diplomatic relations with the ZC, 
wouldn't Imperial diplomats have gotten at least _some_ hint of ongoing 
war?

<<snip>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 08:12:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Tue Aug 20 07:12:04 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E4A@USCHM203>

>John T. Kwon wrote:

>> Quite unlike the US, who puts its aircraft into the desert, 
>> and chops them up for scrap.

>Actually, other federal agencies can purchase planes from the >boneyards, 
>and until the mid to late 70's so could citizens.

On a slightly related note, Jimmy Buffet has a refurbished PBY (large WWII
era seaplane) with a luxuriously furnished interior. Pretty nice way to go
island hopping, if you can afford it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 08:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Tue Aug 20 07:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E4B@USCHM203>

Quite frankly, it is my fondest hope that Major League Baseball goes the way
of the old North American Soccer League (which was a damn shame). In short,
disappears. How any fans could support professional baseball after this
latest nonsense is beyond me. I gave up on the league in '95. I'd rather go
see AAA ball in Newark or Hoboken, or high school games, or even little
league these days.
The only way you'll get me into Shea Stadium again is for a concert.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 08:42:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Tue Aug 20 07:42:03 2002
Subject: [TML] JTAS article comments required please
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFEEAIDGAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

I have just had my first article published on JTAS (Felix) and would ask
anyone who has a JTAS subscription to read it and pass on any comments you
might have.

I have developed a very thick skin so please feel  free to speak your minds,
I need the criticism badly so let rip one and all.

Anyone who hasn't got a JTAS sub yet I would heartily recommend it.

Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.
I need to remember details like that, until we get to know each other
better.  Some men get so nervous if a lady shows up at the restaurant with a
box of explosives. - Florence, www.purrsia.com/Freefall , 7th Dec 2001


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 08:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 20 07:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Names of Tigresses
Message-ID: <12028cd12060a4.12060a412028cd@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Shadowcat <res053z0@gten.net>
Date: Sunday, August 18, 2002 7:32 am
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Names of Tigresses

> I'd at least use the "Grumman Cats"
> Tigercat
> Wildcat
> Bearcat
> Tomcat

Plus Hellcat....

BTW, has anyone used the Abbatoir hellkittens (from George R.R. Martin's 
_Tuf Voyaging_) as an animal encounter in their games?

<<snip>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 08:59:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Colin)
Date: Tue Aug 20 07:59:11 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E4B@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEKIECAA.tml@jtas.org>

My, aren't we self-righteous. I suppose you don't buy things shipped by
truck after the big teamsters strikes of the 70's, and that you refuse to
send your children to school because the NEA sent teachers out on strike in
the 80's, and you refuse to call 911 because of the police and firefighter
"sick-outs" held at various times, that you refuse to fly because pilots and
airline workers have gone on strike, that you refuse to buy clothes that
have a union label, and that you refuse to be protected by the US Military
because their ships and planes and tanks are union made? I'm not attacking
you, just pointing out that this union/management conflict is no different
than any other. Don't be blinded by jealousy over the amounts of money
involved. The principle is the same. For the record, I hate the fact that
unions have been necessary, but it is the appalling mismanagement of human
resources that made it so. Humans do not treat each other humanely unless
there is a balance of power.


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com

Quite frankly, it is my fondest hope that Major League Baseball goes the way
of the old North American Soccer League (which was a damn shame). In short,
disappears. How any fans could support professional baseball after this
latest nonsense is beyond me. I gave up on the league in '95. I'd rather go
see AAA ball in Newark or Hoboken, or high school games, or even little
league these days.
The only way you'll get me into Shea Stadium again is for a concert.


_________________________________
     The Traveller Trader
 http://www.travellertrader.com
"The place to get that wonderful,
  out-of-print Traveller stuff!"



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 09:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Tue Aug 20 08:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <20020820104354.7fc37dd1ee9e4d3781988ac73858c404.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng) writes:
>> 
>> Well, I am not going to support a change in domestic policy that is
>> going to fund rebels undermining countries in South America.
>
>I would think that, once legal, it'd fund not much at all.  We're not
>talking about products which are difficult to make, after all.  That's
>one of the funny things about Prohibition: it makes the prohibited
>much more valuable than it'd otherwise be.

Nice idea, but only an idea.  But drug legalization is not the panacea that
a lot of people think it is, not the least of which "We can lower the crime
rates by getting rid of laws" argument.  True, to a point, but it ignores a
lot in the bargain.

>I like to use the example of liquor distributors in the first
>Prohibition: they were evil, murderous men.  But nowaday they tend to
>be family men you'd not be surprised to see in church...

Okay, you convert the charming people in FARC to such nice fellows and THEN
I will think about supporting drug legalization.

Think of it: the end of Prohibition did not make the Mafia go away, did it?
All it did was to put them in different lines of work.  What makes you think
FARC and the drug cartels are going to stand-up and say "Well, fellas, now
that we are legal businessmen, we are going to be nice, upstanding citizens."

C.T.


"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 09:03:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Tue Aug 20 08:03:04 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <F109XJOhAFUb5aSoInd0000f7a1@hotmail.com>

>Since golf was mentioned, why is it that a golfer needs absolute silence
>to strike a stationary ball in front of him, while a ballplayer is
>expected to hit a ball being thrown past (and sometimes AT) him at 90MPH
>or so while 50,000 spectators scream at the top of their lungs?

LOL!

>ObTrav: Will popular sports in the Traveller universe be more or less
>violent than those we know today?

Captain Jason Wright carries his 10mm pistol with him while golfing for just 
such an occurance of noise.  It is silenced so as not to bother the others 
on the links....

Jason



Andy Mac


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 09:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Aug 20 08:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <005401c24841$368bc940$81000140@k62500>
Message-ID: <20020820151757.14089.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

--- tmr0195@concentric.net wrote:
> I spent 20-years in the USN, 4 subs, 1 sub tender,
> and various barracks. Reading through some of the
> related posts I will try to answer questions on
> accommodations and underway time.
<<<SNIPPAGE>>> 
> crew did the opposite. A standard patrol cycle
> usually had the boat underwater for approximately 60
> days, my longest sustained underway period was 74
> days submerged. Of course the boat did come up to
> periscope depth and extend various masts, snorkel
> normally, and antennas. Most of the junior personnel
> had to hot rack (share the same bunk which is about
> 6'5"x 18" x 24"), which had a hinged bunk pan and
> storage space underneath. Other sleeping

First, my apology to you and the other navy guys on
the list.  I was obviously misinformed regarding
surface time both for ship crew and submariners.

Second, my respect.  It is well deserved given the
descriptions above.  I know it's been said before, but
let me repeat/reiterate.  Thanks to all the current
and ex- military guys.  Probably doesn't get said
enough.

Finally, OB Trav:  How would the attitude toward the
military differ from area to area and world to world. 
Would the folks on an overpopulated vaccuum world
gripe about the excess space afforded to the navy
crews.  How about the navy crews?  Imagin visiting a
world where there was more room in your bunk than in
the hotel "room" you could rent for shore leave.  Ugh.

Paul


__________________________________________________
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HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 09:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue Aug 20 08:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The Frontier Wars; The other side of the hill
Message-ID: <F218UrUIX373es2r0u1000128c8@hotmail.com>

From: <tmr0195@concentric.net>

     "There is a small error in the following section of the below statement 
in the recent posting: "

     "1. The Mexican government invited North American, primarily Southern 
citizens, settlers into Texas." (snip)

     "2. The Republic of Texas made overtures to the U.S. government which 
were politely rebuffed owing to an unfavorable climate." (snip)


Mr. Rux,

     You are, of course, correct sir.  Given the facts that you politely 
reminded us of, I wouldn't describe my flight of fancy as containing "small 
errors".  Instead, it's chock full of whoppers!
     However, my intention was not to give a thumbnail picture of the 
Mexican-American war, but rather to use that conflict to draw general 
parallels between an known historical event and the fictional Frontier Wars.
     By describing the events leading up to the Mexican-American War from 
the Mexican point of view, I had hoped to goad the List into viewing the 
Frontier Wars from the Zhodani point of view, the "other side of the hill" 
as it were.  Because I was drawing analogies, I "trimmed" the facts to fit 
my theme.  True, I lied, by omission instead of commission, but I lied all 
the same.
     That being said, how did you like my alternate timeline?  Did it make 
you look again at the Frontier Wars?  If you answer yes, that result may 
mitigate my truth bending.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen E. "I'd rather be on Porozlo" Whipsnade

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 09:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue Aug 20 08:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] GURPS Traveller LEH? [Or LEW?]
Message-ID: <F188zk6WHKOM9pbGTr700009dfd@hotmail.com>

From: john.groth@us.army.mil

     "When I first read that subject line, I saw it as "GURPS:  Traveller 
LEW," and was surprised to think that SJG had decided to publish a book 
detailing Larsen E. Whipsnade from the TML.... ;-) "


Mr. Groth,

     The "G:T LEW" publication is little more than a mish-mash of old wanted 
posters, mugshots, and security camera stills.  Nothing in it is really new 
and most of the materials can be found and copied at any corner Imperial 
X-Post Office.
     AFAIK, the only new item in the book is a series of stills showing the 
Rotound Reprobate washing out a pair of socks and stealing change from the 
Tivoli Fountains on Terra.

     "Equal Time for Fred Ramen!"

     The talented Mr. Ramen has submitted the proofs for his "Nasa Sutra 
5700" publication.  FWIW, Dorothii Lemuur figures prominently in the work.  
Mr. Ramen also has a Vilani cookbook in the works, several screenplays 
optioned to the MYMINES, Ltd. media division, an on-going set of memoirs, 
and, of course, the wildly popular juvenile detective series 
"Shgapgunshusgis Dru".
     All of these items can be purchased at Im-Azon.com.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 09:50:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Aug 20 08:50:10 2002
Subject: Vulcan bits - was RE: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly
 of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F169B@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

I used to live <15 miles away from it :)  Of course, that was something like 10 years ago.  Had I only known back then ;)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thomas Barnes [mailto:twb3@charter.net]
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 8:32 PM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: RE: Vulcan bits - was RE: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the
> belly of the beast (long)
> 
> 
> There is a Vulcan on display at the Castle Air Museum near Merced, CA.
> Quite a striking looking airplane.  
> 
> I wonder how large a donation would motivate them to let you make a
> casting of the stick grip?
> 
> TWB
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com [mailto:tml-
> > admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of DeGraff, Jesse
> > Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 11:14 AM
> > To: 'tml@travellercentral.com'
> > Subject: Vulcan bits - was RE: [TML] USS North Carolina: in 
> the belly
> of
> > the beast (long)
> > 
> > > As I mentioned before, in the UK it's possible to buy a lot
> > > of interesting "out of date" items.  If the list could put
> > > the money together, and get a UK buyer, we could, say,
> > > purchase a Vulcan bomber.
> > 
> > If we DO purchase a Vulcan bomber (or anyone on the list 
> has one ;) I
> need
> > to pour a silicone mold of the control stick.  It was used 
> in the film
> > "Aliens", and I could easily sell copies to prop collectors :D
> > 
> > Jesse
> > _______________________________________________
> > TML mailing list
> > TML@travellercentral.com
> > http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 09:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Aug 20 08:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F169C@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

I forgot about "flag country".  Whoops :)
Jesse

<snip Terry's living quarters breakdown>

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 09:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Aug 20 08:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Solomani influences
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F169D@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

When I went to Dragon*Con last year, my roomate & I were walking down =
the street from our hotel to the conference hotel when we noticed that =
the manhole covers in Atlanta look EXACTLY like the Sol symbol :)  I'll =
try and remember to post a pic when I get home tonight.

Jesse

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tod Glenn [mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com]
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 9:11 PM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Solomani influences
>=20
>=20
> on 8/19/02 7:41 PM, Mark Urbin at urbin@bigfoot.com wrote:
>=20
> > Seeing=20
> http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/solcourier.htm
> > reminded of my trip to the Boston Science Museum yesterday.
> > That's where I saw the prototype autodoc on display.
> >=20
> > One of the other exhibits flashes a very bright image in=20
> your eyes, for
> > experiments with after images.
> >=20
> > The image burned into your brain...the Solomani cross in=20
> circle as shown on
> > the ship Jesse designed...
> >=20
>=20
> When we went on vacation this summer, we only stayed in=20
> SolSec approved
> hotels.
>=20
> see: http://solsec.org/media/sol_hotel.jpg
>=20
> Tod
>=20
> --
> Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can=20
> find a rock.=A0
> --=20
> Tod L Glenn
> webmaster@travellercentral.com
> http://www.travellercentral.com
> http://www.spinwardmarches.com
> http://www.solsec.org
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>=20

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 09:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Aug 20 08:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMAEKIECAA.tml@jtas.org>
Message-ID: <20020820155541.61823.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Colin <tml@jtas.org> wrote:
<<Snippage: Examples of union/management troubles>
> involved. The principle is the same. For the record,
> I hate the fact that
> unions have been necessary, but it is the appalling
> mismanagement of human
> resources that made it so. Humans do not treat each
> other humanely unless
> there is a balance of power.

While I have not given up on baseball, and refuse to
let my enjoyment of the game be dictated by pampered
millionaires.  I do understand the point that resulted
in this reply.  I don't think you can say that the
Baseball strike, that hopefully will not come, is an
example of humans treating inhumanely.  From what I
gather (hey, its a game, if I want politics I go to
Washington).  Anyway, from what I gather, the biggest
debate is over how much luxury tax will be charged. 
Bleah.  Shut up, collect your $300,000 per year (if it
is your first year) and play ball!

BTW, I do enjoy the AA games here in Greenville.

ObTrav:  How are interstellar strikes handled?  Could
the strike in the Marches be just beginning when the
disputes are already settled as far away as Vland or
Captial?  How would an interstellar Union function?

Paul (A fan of the game, not necessarily the players)




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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 10:06:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue Aug 20 09:06:04 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020820104354.7fc37dd1ee9e4d3781988ac73858c404.in@keywest.kennett.net>
References: <20020820104354.7fc37dd1ee9e4d3781988ac73858c404.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <m3hehp7bxh.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng) writes:
> 
> > I like to use the example of liquor distributors in the first
> > Prohibition: they were evil, murderous men.  But nowaday they tend
> > to be family men you'd not be surprised to see in church...
> 
> Think of it: the end of Prohibition did not make the Mafia go away,
> did it?  All it did was to put them in different lines of work.
> What makes you think FARC and the drug cartels are going to stand-up
> and say "Well, fellas, now that we are legal businessmen, we are
> going to be nice, upstanding citizens."

Who cares about them?  Crime cannot compete with legitimate business
(that's why the Mafia left alcohol distribution and, more recently,
Vegas gambling).  If marijuana, cocaine, LSD, methamphetamine, opium
&c. were legitimate businesses, those involved in them would be no
more objectionable that a liquor distributor is these days.

Sure, there's a space of time when said nasty types are involved in
the legal side of things.  I'm certain that for a few years after the
elimination of the Ignoble Experiment the mob was still involved in
alcohol production and distribution.

ObTrav: This is why the Imperium, IMTU anyway, doesn't prohibit much.
It gives rebels an easy way to make money, it causes more crime than
it prevents and it's and affront to sense.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
We will print no letters to the editor.  We will give no space to
opposing points of view.  They are wrong.  The Underground Grammarian is
at war and will give the enemy nothing but battle.
                     --The Underground Grammarian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 10:08:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Aug 20 09:08:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <3D616860.70000@usisp.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029859559.8751.ajackson@ping>

richard honeycutt writes:

>     How is that in violation of canon? If it is as you suggest, then why 
> aren't all worlds at
> Imperial Tech?

Good question.  Why _aren't_ almost all worlds at Imperial tech?

IMTU 'TL' basically indicates the average wealth of the population, and only
indicates what's actually available to the degree that lower-tech goods are
cheaper than higher-tech goods.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 10:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Tue Aug 20 09:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E55@USCHM203>

"Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance" wrote: 

>I'm still convinced that Abba constituted some form of violation of the 
>Geneva conventions.

The Swedish government maintains that this was merely in retaliation for
Leif Garrett.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 14:41:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Tue Aug 20 13:41:26 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E56@USCHM203>

>"Colin" wrote:

>My, aren't we self-righteous. I suppose you don't buy things shipped by
>truck after the big teamsters strikes of the 70's, and that you refuse to
>send your children to school because the NEA sent teachers out on strike in
>the 80's, and you refuse to call 911 because of the police and firefighter
>"sick-outs" held at various times, that you refuse to fly because pilots
and
>airline workers have gone on strike, that you refuse to buy clothes that
>have a union label, and that you refuse to be protected by the US Military
>because their ships and planes and tanks are union made? I'm not attacking
>you, just pointing out that this union/management conflict is no different
>than any other. Don't be blinded by jealousy over the amounts of money
>involved. The principle is the same. For the record, I hate the fact that
>unions have been necessary, but it is the appalling mismanagement of human
>resources that made it so. Humans do not treat each other humanely unless
>there is a balance of power.

I am not only self righteous, I am completely right in my right-thinking
righteousness.
I have nothing against unions, and in all but extreme cases of unreasonable
demands or corruption support them wholeheartedly. You are absolutely right
that people will generally screw others if they can get away with it.
However, I do not equate miners, truckers, teachers,longshoremen,
electricians, carpenters, masons, police, firemen, or the vast majority of
people who work hard and often thankless jobs for a living with professional
athletes. 
The analogy to not calling police, or not sending my children to school, as
opposed to not attending a professional baseball game, simply does not work
for me. It is simplistic.
Professional sports, like any entertainment, is a luxury. I can live without
it, and so can the country.
I can not live without police protection, fire departments, schools for my
kids, houses for them to live in, electricity to keep the lights on, and
trucks that bring food to the supermarket. As far as the military goes, I
had no problem with my union made equipment when I was in(were Dragons
union-made?). 

Then again, maybe I'm just pissed at the money aspect. My father was a
professional soccer player both in England and in the United States in the
50s and 60s. Do you want to know how much money he made? Jack-s***. It
basically amounted to extra spending money.

So in all honesty, I am extremely F***ING BLINDED BY JEALOSY OVER THE MONEY
INVOLVED!!!!!

:)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 14:44:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue Aug 20 13:44:08 2002
Subject: [TML] The Frontier Wars; The other side of the hill
Message-ID: <F2439aZbLAX3cf3ednH0001137d@hotmail.com>

From: Flykiller@aol.com

     "Based on the canon I have available to me (Supplement 11, which I've 
already quoted), the Imperials do.  But of course, a "flight of fancy" is 
the purpose of an RPG, and the incidents you cite are valid."


Sir,

     I don't know if FFE has reprinted it yet, but you will find the 
Spinward Marches Campaign absolutely fascinating.  The SMC is a CT 
supplement, so there should be no fears of MT/TNE canon bending.  The maps 
alone; detailing the settlement of the Marches, before/after borders for the 
various wars, and snippets of the 5th FW in progress, are worth the cover 
price.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 14:46:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 20 13:46:45 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Vulcan bits
Message-ID: <31.2bc0b2c5.2a93cdf0@aol.com>

TWB writes:

>There is a Vulcan on display at the Castle Air Museum near Merced, CA.
>Quite a striking looking airplane.  
>

Ah yes, the museum in Atwater. I've walked around under that very aircraft 
within the past year, musing that I now had a feel for what walking around 
under a Type S (or a gig) was like...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 14:49:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Tue Aug 20 13:49:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E57@USCHM203>

>Paul Walker wrote:

>ObTrav:  How are interstellar strikes handled?  Could
>the strike in the Marches be just beginning when the
>disputes are already settled as far away as Vland or
>Captial?  How would an interstellar Union function?

Well, you remember what happened when the Alderaan Space Traffic Controllers
went on strike...

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 14:51:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Aug 20 13:51:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
References: <20820.030913.4C8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3D627761.2020709@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Leonard Erickson wrote:

>>Not just that, but evaluate and choose the person who will be killed.  You 
>>have to be able to say "I will kill that Colonel first, then the radioman." 
>>and do it.
> 
> 
> I assume that's because you *have* to get the Colonel, but getting the
> radionan is "merely" very important.
> 

Nope, it's because if you pop the Colonel, the radio man will duck, call 
in an arty strike on your likely position and kill you.

If you pop the radioman first, you will not likely get another shot at 
the important target, so you have a much better chance of surviving, but 
you missed the target.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 14:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Aug 20 13:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <000301c247fc$35581190$6501a8c0@Darla>
References: <20020819222844.14677.qmail@web20414.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020820101133.009e7a50@mindspring.com>

At 10:46 PM 8/19/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Since golf was mentioned, why is it that a golfer needs absolute silence
>to strike a stationary ball in front of him, while a ballplayer is
>expected to hit a ball being thrown past (and sometimes AT) him at 90MPH
>or so while 50,000 spectators scream at the top of their lungs?

What always got me was gymnastics.  13 year old girls doing backflips on 6" 
wide beams while scores are being announced, people are applauding other 
events, and somebody's floor music is being played.  Golf?  Bring air 
horns.  Make it interesting.

>ObTrav: Will popular sports in the Traveller universe be more or less
>violent than those we know today?

Yes.  Depends on the culture and world.  IMTU rollerball is one of the most 
popular sports in Lunion subsector.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.
gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Author of GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces
Geek Code: tc tm tn- t4-- tg++$ ru ge+ 3i+@ c+
            jt- au pi he+ as+ so-                           



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 14:59:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Aug 20 13:59:56 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <20020820172515.37343.qmail@web20413.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Thomas Barnes" <twb3@charter.net>

>Since golf was mentioned, why is it that a golfer needs absolute 
>silence to strike a stationary ball in front of him, while a
>ballplayer is expected to hit a ball being thrown past (and
>sometimes AT) him at 90MPH or so while 50,000 spectators scream at
>the top of their lungs?

To paraphrase the famous philosopher Tevye, I'll tell you: I don't
know.  But it's a tradition!

--Glenn


__________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 15:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Burns)
Date: Tue Aug 20 14:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <20020820173017.7934.qmail@web10605.mail.yahoo.com>

Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 01:21:33 -0400
From: cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng)

>Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:

>> 
>> Actually, other federal agencies can purchase
planes from the
>> boneyards, and until the mid to late 70's so could
citizens.
>> 
>> Alas, they were being purchased here, gassed up,
flown south and
>> often caught coming here again, full of pot and/or
coke.
>> 
>> After a few of these episodes, they suspended
civilian sales of
>> aircraft.

>
>Sigh.  Yet _another_ casualty of the drug war.  Y'all
realise that the
>various Prohibitions have been behind more nonsense
than just about
>anything else in American history?  Sigh...


Well, I am not going to support a change in domestic
policy that is going to
fund rebels undermining countries in South America.

C.T.


"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are
like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics,
Brother-in-law....


--__--__--

I think the point was that the current "drug war"
policy, like the early 20th century alchohol
prohibition in your fair land is costly and
ineffective. In fact by supporting such a policy it
might be reasonably argued that you are in fact
helping said South American rebels due to the increase
in price of the drugs that do get through (and if the
numbers oft quoted are anywhere near close the actual
amount intercepted is pitiful). So the supply easily
keeps up with the ever increasing demand and 'they'
keep raising the street price, which also makes for
big headlines anytime there is a major bust and
everybody (by which I mean all the affluent people and
the less aware media numbed masses who are too tired
after work to know better) feels better. No one asks
"are we winning the war" or "how many casualities"
this week (in law enforcement, civilians and users).

And as for helping fund the "bad guys" if your
governments recent ad campaign is any indication it
seems just about any citizen who buys anything
anywhere except their local all American, true (Red,
White and) Blue patriotic store is supporting a
terrorist cell somewhere.

All that said I mean not to in any way lessen the
dangerous and difficult work of those brave people in
the DEA and associated agencies in this often
thankless task but there should be a better way of
helping the people who feel (or felt at least once) so
desperate that they turned to drugs, and then to crime
to support the addiction. There are no easy solutions
to this epidemic problem but in the way of governemnts
an easy to understand and promote solution is required
and prohibition, and now the "war on drugs" fit the
bill.

Great, now after all this waaay OT, how am I gonna
swing it back to Traveller?  It's the Spinward
Marches, the tri-v is full a vads...

Voice over and scene of dazed looking dirty junks in a
crowd "30% of buz users are illicit psionic
practitioners, do you know who the ohter 70% are?"
screen zooms in on a typical urban couple sitting in
their cubiment plugging in a buzzer right under their
Imperial Starburst banner...

"Link your comp to 1849.7562.6294 and get your free
personalized psychic prediction. For entertainment
purposes only, no real psionic ability is implied or
employed. Rates cr19 per minute. A division of SciTec
corp.

"And now the local news. SciTec corp. is under IMOJ
investigation for questionable financial practices. An
undisclosed amount of funds has been directed to what
the Ministry is calling "problem factions with
pro-psionic goals". SciTec corp. officers cannot be
reached for comment and the IMOJ does not have any in
custody yet but are sure they will have shortly.

A major blow in the war on psionics was struck during
a routine customs stop today by a Patrol Cruiser on
duty in orbit around the gas giant Mirbil. The customs
agents deiscovered and seized over 100kg of psionic
enhancing drugs. The drugs were being smuggled in a
low berth aboard the free-trader Aladdin and have an
estimated street value of over 2.1 million credits.
The ship was later found to also have a standard
shipping crate full of buzzers labled and listed in
the manifest as Novelty Electronics and disguised as
simple colored light projectors. Next, after the vad
break, the local weather and sports with James and
Leinad."



______________________________________________________________________ 
Post your ad for free now! http://personals.yahoo.ca

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 15:06:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Aug 20 14:06:31 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Damned Silly Questions
Message-ID: <20020820173018.25282.qmail@web20415.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Thomas Barnes" <twb3@charter.net>

>I no longer feel silly that I allowed a group of players to name 
>their ship the "Broken Wind".

The yacht "For Play" is docked at Pier 40 in San Francisco.  

The family of one of my high school friends was going to name their
big motor boat "der Nasse Traum" until his mom looked the words up in
his German dictionary.  (His father and younger brother, both
students of the language, were co-conspirators with him.)  

--Glenn



__________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 15:09:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Aug 20 14:09:19 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E4A@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <3D627DA5.6000805@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Hurrel, Brian wrote:

> On a slightly related note, Jimmy Buffet has a refurbished PBY (large WWII
> era seaplane) with a luxuriously furnished interior. Pretty nice way to go
> island hopping, if you can afford it.

So that's what he replaced the Grumman Goose with. (In which he learned 
the hard way, how to bail out of a sinking seaplane...'follow the 
bubbles, follow the bubbles'...the Goose is now on the bottom of Long 
Island Sound, following an unfortunate encounter with a wave at just the 
wrong point in landing.)

A PBY is a heckuva step up. I looked on the web once and found a Goose 
for sale for a mere $750K.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 15:14:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Tue Aug 20 14:14:20 2002
Subject: [TML] GURPS Traveller LEH?  [Or LEW?]
In-Reply-To: <115c55d1161002.1161002115c55d@us.army.mil>
References: <115c55d1161002.1161002115c55d@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <20020820230234.7fb10b75.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Tue, 20 Aug 2002 15:37:48 +0300
john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:

> <<crossposted to JTAS General Discussion board>>
> 
> At 09:29:09, Aug 19, 2002, George A. Boyett (<<email address
> redacted>>) wrote:
> > I hate to bring this up again, but the LEH is scheduled for release 
> > next month.  Is preordering now opened?
> 
> When I first read that subject line, I saw it as "GURPS:  Traveller 
> LEW," and was surprised to think that SJG had decided to publish a
> book detailing Larsen E. Whipsnade from the TML.... ;-)

  LOL

As a side note, I have no idea what product the abbrevation LEH stands
for... could anyone please enlighten me?

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 15:16:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Tue Aug 20 14:16:59 2002
Subject: [TML] JTAS article comments required please
In-Reply-To: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFEEAIDGAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020820210611.91090.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com>

> Anyone who hasn't got a JTAS sub yet I would
> heartily recommend it.
> 
You know, I've been wanting one of those. Could you
please post the website where the subscription is? I
forgot where it was.
thanks
Dan

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 15:19:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Tue Aug 20 14:19:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : Autodocs are starting to appear
In-Reply-To: <000001c247ed$096e25b0$319d67cb@robert>
References: <000001c247ed$096e25b0$319d67cb@robert>
Message-ID: <20020820230903.3f40ca26.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Tue, 20 Aug 2002 11:58:10 +1000
Robert O'Connor <robocon@ozemail.com.au> wrote:

> TTL 12. Progress in robotics and imaging/diagnostic tech are the main
> requirements.
> 
> Non-portable versions could be available a tech-level earlier.

Sounds reasonable. And it means that experimental and highly unsafe
units might be tested in shady conditions at TL-10, which is good enough
for my purposes...

I really hope none of the people who will play this campaign are
watching my smile right now...  ;-)

Nothing like the joys of medical experimentation on human subjects to
make both PCs and players uneasy. Great for horror/thriller adventures.

As a side note, has anyone here run the Transhuman Space adventure
Orbital Decay? How did it turn out?

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 15:22:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Aug 20 14:22:33 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
References: <20020820104354.7fc37dd1ee9e4d3781988ac73858c404.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <3D62821B.2040005@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Cheng Tseng wrote:

> Okay, you convert the charming people in FARC to such nice fellows and THEN
> I will think about supporting drug legalization.

Puleeze. If drugs are legalized do you think that FARC stands a 
snowballs chance in hell against Philip-Morris, Anhauser Busch, or Merck?

LOL! If drugs are legalized, big corporations are going to take it over, 
period.

If FARC is lucky they'll be able to transform themselves into some sort 
of corporate middleman, where they'll soon succumb to the lure of money.

If not, they'll dwindle to a tiny residue of bitter, irrelevant, aging 
revolutionaries sitting around cafes grumbling about how terrible things 
are.

> Think of it: the end of Prohibition did not make the Mafia go away, did it?
> All it did was to put them in different lines of work.  

What Prohibition *did* was make the Mafia big enough to *need* another 
line of work.

What prohibition *did* was make it possible for large corporations to 
take over beer and liquor production in this country.

Prior to Prohibition, all beer in this country was microbrewed.

(read "Beer blast :the inside story of the brewing industry's bizarre 
battles for your money" by Philip Van Munching, grandson of the guy who 
started importing Heineken's into the US, a very entertaining read, and 
serious grist for a GM's mill, if only for megacorp shenanegains. So 
called 'Lite Beer' was originally produced as a health food.)

Prior to Prohibition the Mafia was just another bunch of immigrant 
neighborhood gangs doing local shakedowns, gambling and prostitution. 
Prohibition gave them the money, power and nationwide scope they got.

Also, don't forget, as soon as Prohibition ended the people in the 
Treasury department doing Prohibition enforcement needed work too, so 
they immediately started tightening the laws and demonizing other drugs.

"Reefer Madness" anyone?  Louis Auchincloss was going to lose his power 
at the end of Prohibition, so he found something else to prohibit.

Prohibition never truly ended, it merely changed prohibited substances.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 15:25:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Aug 20 14:25:27 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Playing or discussing
Message-ID: <20020820180421.39188.qmail@web20415.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Andrew Long" <AndrewGLong@yahoo.com>

>Well, I don't know about anyone else, but I have to admit that I'm 
>not playing at all... and haven't for many years. Until quite
>recently I was living in the Arabian Gulf; there aren't many FLGS
>there (I never found ONE, in fact) and a similar number of players.

I'm sorry to hear that.  If you plan on visiting the San Francisco
area, drop me a line.  We play about once a month in San Jose.  Some
of the players in that game play in other ongoing Traveller campaigns
as well.  

>Now I'm back in the UK (and currently unemployed) I have more time 

>Anyone in the Somerset/West of England area wants to play Traveller?

I don't remember where those BITS guys are, but the UK isn't that
big, so you should be able to hook up with them once in a while.  I
recall reading about a Traveller meeting somewhere in the UK a couple
of years ago.

Good luck!

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 15:28:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Aug 20 14:28:14 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <20020820180640.40098.qmail@web20415.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
>> >that Sweden swept down on anyone?
>>
>> Their last military adventurism was about 1740, but those "I Am 
>>Curious" movies from the 1960s nearly brought down western
>>civilization. 
>
>I'm still convinced that Abba constituted some form of violation of 
>the Geneva conventions.

The Al Qaeda detainees in Cuba who recently attempted suicide had
been subjected to constant Abba music in the camp's PA system, and a
live concert had been advertised.  

--Glenn


__________________________________________________
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HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 15:32:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Aug 20 14:32:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Names of Tigresses
In-Reply-To: <12028cd12060a4.12060a412028cd@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <3D635BE4.30289.2D74BB@localhost>

On 20 Aug 2002 at 17:57, john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:

> BTW, has anyone used the Abbatoir hellkittens (from George R.R. Martin's 
> _Tuf Voyaging_) as an animal encounter in their games?

Not yet. I like that silicate spider, too.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 15:35:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dave Strebe)
Date: Tue Aug 20 14:35:01 2002
Subject: [TML] JTAS article comments required please
References: <20020820210611.91090.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <02Aug20.144857pdt.119101@gw.city.vancouver.bc.ca>

try

http://jtas.sjgames.com/subscribe/


----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel Tackett" <haegen2001@yahoo.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 2:06 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] JTAS article comments required please


> > Anyone who hasn't got a JTAS sub yet I would
> > heartily recommend it.
> >
> You know, I've been wanting one of those. Could you
> please post the website where the subscription is? I
> forgot where it was.
> thanks
> Dan
>
> =====
> If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is
no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is
only chaos.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
> http://www.hotjobs.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 15:38:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Tue Aug 20 14:38:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
Message-ID: <F107yg35sQtgTIFprhM00002ebc@hotmail.com>

>I forgot about "flag country".  Whoops :)
>Jesse
>
><snip Terry's living quarters breakdown>
>_______________________________________________


My best night aboard a US Navy ship was in flag country...  Beautiful 
accomodations, complete with the two Philipino stewards.  It was back in 
July 1974, and I was 12, just having been evacuated by the Navy and Marines 
from the island of Cyprus.

The troop berthing space we were supposed to stay in was full by the time my 
mom, my younger brother and I got there.  The Chaplain, who was escorting us 
(all the young Marines grabbed the bags of the cute girls who were on the 
same helicopter) asked us to wait on the mess decks until he found a place 
for us.

The Religious Programmer (RP, enlisted assistant/guard for chaplains) who 
came to collect us took us up into officer country, and finally delivered us 
to the chaplain, and the Captain.  He volunteered his private quarters for 
us (the bedroom was already taken).  These were the oak paneled dining and 
sitting room, with leather sofas and chairs, oak/mahogany dining room set, 
original oil paintings on the walls, crystal, and I believe a chandeleer.  
He said he'd sleep in his quarters off the bridge...

Wonderful night and following day as the stewards prepared us breakfast to 
order, in his galley and served it in his dining room.  They then escorted 
me and my brother around the ship, letting us play at the guns, and finally 
delivered us up to the bridge, where the Captain put us both in HIS chair.  
Handed us each a pair of binoculars and proceeded to point out the various 
ships, told us their registry, probably origination/destination and probable 
cargo.  Pointed out the smudge on the horizon where the USS Forrestal was 
sitting turned into the wind with F14s on its 4 catapults.  Then IDed the 
destroyer sitting by one horizon out from Beirut where we were going.

Awesome time, and had nothing to do with my ultimately going into the 
service.  If it had, I'd have gone Navy.  As it was, my next time on a Navy 
ship for any length of time, I shared a stateroom with 3 other company grade 
officers...

Cheers,

Greg



Andy Mac


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 15:41:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Colin)
Date: Tue Aug 20 14:41:04 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <20020820155541.61823.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCEKNECAA.tml@jtas.org>

If you collect garbage for 28k, or teach for 36k, or drive a truck for 52k,
or direct air traffic for 78k per year, all essential services, it is okay
to strike and wreak havoc in other people's lives. But if you earn 'too
much' and work in the entertainment field, it is unforgivable for you to be
upset about unfair charges against your income? Perhaps we should just
institute a 100% marginal rate on all income above what you make per year so
that nobody makes more than you think they should? Ridiculous, I know, but
it is in keeping with the flavor of your comment below. Why aren't baseball
players allowed to bargain in good faith as they see fit, just like everyone
else? Because they make more money than you or I do? Perhaps they are saying
the same type of thing: when the owners are mining out the gold why are they
getting the shaft... and taking the blame for the strike, too.

Again, I'm not supporting the excesses on either side of this argument. I
care little for professional sports or unions in general. But I don't want
to see this list used to promote distrust or distaste for a certain class of
people, which in this case happens to be 'rich people'.

-grumpy old fart

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
 Anyway, from what I gather, the biggest
debate is over how much luxury tax will be charged.
Bleah.  Shut up, collect your $300,000 per year (if it
is your first year) and play ball!



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 15:43:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Aug 20 14:43:55 2002
Subject: [TML] re: USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast
Message-ID: <20020820184552.53329.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)

>Who cares about them?  Crime cannot compete with legitimate business
>(that's why the Mafia left alcohol distribution and, more recently,
>Vegas gambling).  If marijuana, cocaine, LSD, methamphetamine, opium
>&c. were legitimate businesses, those involved in them would be no
>more objectionable that a liquor distributor is these days.

Ah, that would explain organized crime's move into high finance in
the last decade.  See The Mob on Wall Street:  

http://www.businessweek.com/1996/51/b35061.htm

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
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HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 15:47:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Aug 20 14:47:40 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <3D62821B.2040005@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029879541.5629.ajackson@ping>

Bruce Johnson writes:
> Cheng Tseng wrote:
> 
> > Okay, you convert the charming people in FARC to such nice fellows and
> > THEN I will think about supporting drug legalization.
> 
> Puleeze. If drugs are legalized do you think that FARC stands a 
> snowballs chance in hell against Philip-Morris, Anhauser Busch, or Merck?

Yeah.  Legalizing drugs doesn't help the various existing drug cartels.  OTOH,
I can't say I feel a burning desire to do favors do any of the corporations you
mention.  I'm not in general a fan of legalizing drugs, though marijuana isn't
obviously worse than alcohol 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 15:48:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Aug 20 14:48:15 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <3D62821B.2040005@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029879541.5629.ajackson@ping>

Bruce Johnson writes:
> Cheng Tseng wrote:
> 
> > Okay, you convert the charming people in FARC to such nice fellows and
> > THEN I will think about supporting drug legalization.
> 
> Puleeze. If drugs are legalized do you think that FARC stands a 
> snowballs chance in hell against Philip-Morris, Anhauser Busch, or Merck?

Yeah.  Legalizing drugs doesn't help the various existing drug cartels.  OTOH,
I can't say I feel a burning desire to do favors do any of the corporations you
mention.  I'm not in general a fan of legalizing drugs, though marijuana isn't
obviously worse than alcohol 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 15:52:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Tue Aug 20 14:52:33 2002
Subject: [TML] JTAS article comments required please
In-Reply-To: <20020820210611.91090.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFOEAPDGAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

http://jtas.sjgames.com/



Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.
I need to remember details like that, until we get to know each other
better.  Some men get so nervous if a lady shows up at the restaurant with a
box of explosives. - Florence, www.purrsia.com/Freefall , 7th Dec 2001

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Daniel Tackett
> Sent: 20 August 2002 22:06
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] JTAS article comments required please
>
>
> > Anyone who hasn't got a JTAS sub yet I would
> > heartily recommend it.
> >
> You know, I've been wanting one of those. Could you
> please post the website where the subscription is? I
> forgot where it was.
> thanks
> Dan
>
> =====
> If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth
> there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there
> is no order, there is only chaos.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
> http://www.hotjobs.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 15:57:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Aug 20 14:57:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Pingoramma
Message-ID: <20020820194704.96224.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>

I suspect something is awry?  Is it me, or is it the
list?

Paul

__________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 16:01:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ben Bell)
Date: Tue Aug 20 15:01:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Lasers and sound
In-Reply-To: <20020818222310.GB19235@saltmine.radix.net>
References: <200208170434.MYF00163@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
 <20020818222310.GB19235@saltmine.radix.net>
Message-ID: <O$quYzAMeoY9EwPl@bzb1.demon.co.uk>

In message <20020818222310.GB19235@saltmine.radix.net>, Michael Houghton 
<herveus@radix.net> writes
>Howdy!
>
>On Sat, Aug 17, 2002 at 12:34:22AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>[snip interesting description]
>
>> They seem to imply that the weapon is completely silent in
>> operation and effect, and the ideal weapon for close air
>> support.  The package was apparently demonstrated to SOCOM in
>> 1999.
>>
>> But no sound --

You sound surprised. Why would there be sound? The only sound I'd 
imagine there could be would be as things boil and cook. Remember there 
is no real projectile here, no shock wave as from a ballistic weapons. 
Sound is waves in the air. No sound. Simple. Aren't lasers wonderful. No 
sound and a lot of the times no visible part either.

-- 
Ben Bell

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 16:06:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Aug 20 15:06:10 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
References: <20020819222844.14677.qmail@web20414.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020820101133.009e7a50@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3D62B9E2.7080504@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Douglas Berry wrote:
> At 10:46 PM 8/19/02 -0500, you wrote:
> 
>> Since golf was mentioned, why is it that a golfer needs absolute silence
>> to strike a stationary ball in front of him, while a ballplayer is
>> expected to hit a ball being thrown past (and sometimes AT) him at 90MPH
>> or so while 50,000 spectators scream at the top of their lungs?
> 
> 
> What always got me was gymnastics.  13 year old girls doing backflips on 
> 6" wide beams while scores are being announced, people are applauding 
> other events, and somebody's floor music is being played.  Golf?  Bring 
> air horns.  Make it interesting.

ROFL, brings to mind Fox's ads for NHL games: "What if <-> was played 
like hockey?".

Actually they were all one commercial in different settings: at the 
appropriate moment a hockey player came into the scene at high speed and 
bodychecked the various other athletes into the stands...


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 16:12:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Tue Aug 20 15:12:12 2002
Subject: Vulcan bits - was RE: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly  of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F169B@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <20020820215940.97213.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com>

For the benefit of those of us on the TML who aren't
up on airplane history, Is this a Vulcan?

Yes, the gobbledygook below is is a link.

http://us.f118.mail.yahoo.com/ym/Compose?box=Inbox&Mid=3381_4539096_373039_2729_824_0_54100&inc=&Search=&YY=2773&order=down&sort=date&pos=1

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 16:14:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Tue Aug 20 15:14:53 2002
Subject: [TML] JTAS article comments required please
In-Reply-To: <02Aug20.144857pdt.119101@gw.city.vancouver.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <20020820220315.2327.qmail@web11806.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Dave Strebe <strebe@intergate.ca> wrote:
> try
> 
> http://jtas.sjgames.com/subscribe/
> 
thanks.


=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 16:17:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Aug 20 15:17:55 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMCEKNECAA.tml@jtas.org>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029881017.3306.ajackson@ping>

Colin writes:
> If you collect garbage for 28k, or teach for 36k, or drive a truck for 52k,
> or direct air traffic for 78k per year, all essential services, it is okay
> to strike and wreak havoc in other people's lives. But if you earn 'too
> much' and work in the entertainment field, it is unforgivable for you to be
> upset about unfair charges against your income?

Actually, not all businesses are allowed to strike, though it's not so obvious
that baseball is an essential industry ;)

Not sure what 'unfair charges against income' you're talking about; the owners
are mostly interested in some sort of scheme that levels out the money issues
in the game, which currently lets certain teams (*cough*NY Yankees*cough*) to
basically win by throwing cash at the game.  It's understandable why players
would object (almost all methods of doing this basically work by discouraging
teams from spending more than a certain amount on players), but the lack of
some such balancing mechanism is a major flaw in the game.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 16:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug 20 15:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Tech Levelling
In-Reply-To: <OF8C3761CE.98563091-ONCA256C1B.0013F6C1@dnsalias.com>
References: <OF8C3761CE.98563091-ONCA256C1B.0013F6C1@dnsalias.com>
Message-ID: <20020821080515.A14254@freeman.little-possums.net>

Angus McDonald wrote:
> To the lists below you can add high-tech catamarans:

How could I forget catamarans?  My office for the past year or so had
a window looking straight out at the Incat (International Catamarans)
docks a few hundred metres across the water.

I typed quite a few TML posts hearing the low-pitched throbbing of
idling engines, and seeing the flashes of arc welders in the dry dock.

Now I'm in a dingy little ground-floor office next to a busy road :(


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 16:26:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dave Strebe)
Date: Tue Aug 20 15:26:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Lasers and sound
References: <200208170434.MYF00163@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <20020818222310.GB19235@saltmine.radix.net> <O$quYzAMeoY9EwPl@bzb1.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <02Aug20.154029pdt.119065@gw.city.vancouver.bc.ca>

Just a thought but when the moisture in the air vaporizes as the beam
flashes thru it
wouldn't that make a sound? or leave visible evidence of it's effect?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Bell" <TML@bzb1.demon.co.uk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 11:16 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] Lasers and sound


> In message <20020818222310.GB19235@saltmine.radix.net>, Michael Houghton
> <herveus@radix.net> writes
> >Howdy!
> >
> >On Sat, Aug 17, 2002 at 12:34:22AM -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
> >[snip interesting description]
> >
> >> They seem to imply that the weapon is completely silent in
> >> operation and effect, and the ideal weapon for close air
> >> support.  The package was apparently demonstrated to SOCOM in
> >> 1999.
> >>
> >> But no sound --
>
> You sound surprised. Why would there be sound? The only sound I'd
> imagine there could be would be as things boil and cook. Remember there
> is no real projectile here, no shock wave as from a ballistic weapons.
> Sound is waves in the air. No sound. Simple. Aren't lasers wonderful. No
> sound and a lot of the times no visible part either.
>
> --
> Ben Bell
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 16:30:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Ayers)
Date: Tue Aug 20 15:30:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Ammarognip
In-Reply-To: <20020820194704.96224.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00c501c24895$9d09fe40$2f7de40c@loki>

Looking good from this angle.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 16:35:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Aug 20 15:35:04 2002
Subject: Vulcan bits - was RE: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly
 of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F16A8@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

That's a link to a Yahoo! mail account as far as I can tell.  Here's a better link:
http://www.spxtraining.com/niactest/
It's even primarily about XM605, the Vulcan that's at the Castle AFB Museum.

Jesse

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Daniel Tackett [mailto:haegen2001@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 3:00 PM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: RE: Vulcan bits - was RE: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the
> belly of the beast (long)
> 
> 
> For the benefit of those of us on the TML who aren't
> up on airplane history, Is this a Vulcan?
> 
> Yes, the gobbledygook below is is a link.
> 
> http://us.f118.mail.yahoo.com/ym/Compose?box=Inbox&Mid=3381_45
> 39096_373039_2729_824_0_54100&inc=&Search=&YY=2773&order=down&
> sort=date&pos=1
> 
> =====
> If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no 
> truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, 
> if there is no order, there is only chaos.
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
> http://www.hotjobs.com
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 16:38:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Aug 20 15:38:20 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <20020820223447.36627.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>

>Then again, maybe I'm just pissed at the money aspect. My father was

>a professional soccer player both in England and in the United
>States in the 50s and 60s. Do you want to know how much money he
>made? Jack-s***. It basically amounted to extra spending money.
>
>So in all honesty, I am extremely F***ING BLINDED BY JEALOSY OVER
>THE MONEY INVOLVED!!!!!

Well, you know about Eneri, who worked in a travelling circus in the
Spinward Marches.  His job was maintaining the kians, which included
cleaning up their voluminous excrement, currying and coloring their
fur, cleaning their tack, etc.  Kians are notoriously unpleasant
beasts, tending to bite, scratch, and kick anyone working around
them, and having a very bad smell which tends to stick to the
clothing and skin of their handlers.  Worse yet, Eneri would usually
be gone for months at a time, and, when he got home, he would get
only two weeks' bonus pay and then have to draw unemployment
compensation for another another 12 or more weeks before the circus
needed him again.

After a few years of this, his wife Agudishui started looking for
better work for him while he was away.  When he had returned from
another long and arduous trip, she presented him with the results of
her research.  "Eneri," she said, "I have found you a great job,
right here on Vanejen.  You can work for the system government
monitoring compliance with the rules governing importation of
livestock.  Your years of experience travelling with animals around
the Marches are just what they are looking for.  Plus, it pays nearly
three times what you are making now!"

"Agudishui," Eneri started, his face falling, "I know you mean well,
and I appreciate your efforts.  But how could I ever give up show
business?"

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
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HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 16:42:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Tue Aug 20 15:42:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <5a.103459f2.2a932ed7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEJNEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

I would expect that that's not a problems, since during flight ops the
inhabitants of those cabins are likely to be on deck in their planes sitting
on those catapults.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Flykiller@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 1:34 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] Naval crew accommodation

 >Really junior officers can actually be relegated to bunk rooms, each
having
 >no more than eight bunks. These are generally used only for black shoe
 >officers (surface warfare officers who run the ships systems.) No flight
 >officer, or even flight support officer would ever be relegated to one of
 >these.

Some of those flight officer cabins are at the head of a catapault.  Try
sleeping there during flight ops.
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 16:46:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Tue Aug 20 15:46:03 2002
Subject: Vulcan bits - was RE: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly
In-Reply-To: <20020820215940.97213.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208201544060.7410-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

You guys *don't* want to know what goes thru my mind when I keep seeing
this subject line...

~malfoy

**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 16:48:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue Aug 20 15:48:51 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <20020820224538.32252.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: "Colin" <tml@jtas.org>

>But I don't want to see this list used to promote distrust or
>distaste for a certain class of people, which in this case happens
>to be 'rich people'.

The Credo Front of the Ine Givar believes in and strongly advocates
serving rich people ... preferably stir-fried with locally grown
garlic and mixed vegetables, skymelon salad, and a good Zilan
eiswein.

--Undersubcommander Ledif, for the Credo Front of the Ine Givar

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 16:52:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Aug 20 15:52:56 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F16AA@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

If they're in a combat evolution cycle they're going to be so tired they're not gonna' care.  If they're in a normal cruise cycle, they're just gonna' have to suffer :|  If they're lucky, they get used to it.  If not, they don't sleep very well <shrugs>
Jesse

 
> I would expect that that's not a problems, since during flight ops the
> inhabitants of those cabins are likely to be on deck in their 
> planes sitting
> on those catapults.
> 
> 
> Terry C
> All that is Gold does not glitter
> Not all who travel are lost

 
> Some of those flight officer cabins are at the head of a 
> catapault.  Try
> sleeping there during flight ops.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 18:47:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 20 17:47:13 2002
Subject: [TML] spreading tech knowledge
Message-ID: <10.23af07c9.2a9425c1@aol.com>

 >>     How is that in violation of canon? If it is as you suggest, then why 
 >> aren't all worlds at
 >> Imperial Tech?
 >
 >Good question.  Why _aren't_ almost all worlds at Imperial tech?

One might ask a similar question of modern Africa.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 18:50:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Tue Aug 20 17:50:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F16AA@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

If they're in a combat evolution cycle they're going to be so tired they're not gonna' care.  If they're in a normal cruise cycle, they're just gonna' have to suffer :|  If they're lucky, they get used to it.  If not, they don't sleep very well <shrugs>
Jesse

 
> I would expect that that's not a problems, since during flight ops the
> inhabitants of those cabins are likely to be on deck in their 
> planes sitting
> on those catapults.
> 
> 
> Terry C
> All that is Gold does not glitter
> Not all who travel are lost

 
> Some of those flight officer cabins are at the head of a 
> catapault.  Try
> sleeping there during flight ops.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 18:53:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Aug 20 17:53:40 2002
Subject: Vulcan bits - was RE: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly
 of the beast (long)
References: <20020820215940.97213.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3D62CC67.4060002@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Daniel Tackett wrote:
> For the benefit of those of us on the TML who aren't
> up on airplane history, Is this a Vulcan?

For those of you up on your Bond trivia, the bomber where they steal the 
nukes from in Thunderball is a Vulcan.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 18:56:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Tue Aug 20 17:56:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Server Update
Message-ID: <B98815FE.6A729%listmom@travellercentral.com>

As some of you may know, TravellerCentral and the TML have been subject to
some random out of service problems related to the main Sun server.  The
problem has been identified as a bad CPU.  As a correction I have replaced
both CPUs with new and faster CPUs.  So far, the system seems stable and I
have not been able to replicate the crashes that were occurring previously.

Keep your fingers crossed.

Tod

-- 
listmom@travellercentral.com
for list information see
http://lists.travellercentral.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 19:00:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 20 18:00:37 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <35.2b9c4b3d.2a94268e@aol.com>

 >I am not only self righteous, I am completely right in my right-thinking
 >righteousness.

I like that.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 19:04:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Tue Aug 20 18:04:55 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <3D62B9E2.7080504@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <20020819222844.14677.qmail@web20414.mail.yahoo.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020820101133.009e7a50@mindspring.com>
 <3D62B9E2.7080504@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020821001136.5f02e077.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Tue, 20 Aug 2002 14:51:30 -0700
Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:

> ROFL, brings to mind Fox's ads for NHL games: "What if <-> was played 
> like hockey?".
> 
> Actually they were all one commercial in different settings: at the 
> appropriate moment a hockey player came into the scene at high speed
> and bodychecked the various other athletes into the stands...

What if Traveller was played like hockey?

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 19:07:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 20 18:07:38 2002
Subject: [TML] The Frontier Wars; The other side of the hill
Message-ID: <166.1283bb49.2a942710@aol.com>

 >     I don't know if FFE has reprinted it yet, but you will find the 
 >Spinward Marches Campaign absolutely fascinating.

I'll look it up.  Thanks.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 19:13:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Tue Aug 20 18:13:01 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economics
In-Reply-To: <3D61644C.1030703@usisp.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNGEJOEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

Do people in the in the late Imperium do business significantly differently
than in Year 0? I don't know. Do we do business significantly differently in
2002 A.D. than we did in 1002 A.D.? Are the Politics different? Again I
don't know canon simply does not have enough information.

During the long night and just there after it makes sense that isolated
undiscovered worlds might have regressed and have TL's far below Imperial
norms. Trade might be far below or far above what could be expected later.

Rationally I will admit that I would expect to see things the other way
around; Low trade early in the Imperium and high trade in later years.
Published canon does not support this.

I primarily deal with CT and GT. I'm not interested in a post-virus
anything. The only two sources of economic models for the CT/GT twelfth
century Imperium are given in Merchant Prince and GT:Far Trader. These place
trade levels at an unreasonably low level.  To use the economic model of a
T4 product generally invalidates several other GT books (Starports, Ground
Forces, First In, etc.) which use these same numbers.

The authors of Far Trader also believe it was based on sound economic
models. The numbers are, as I understand it, cook to give the results they
give because these were the levels of trade they were told to shoot for. The
reason, higher trade would have caused TL leveling. If a TL 5 world imports
50% of its goods from a TL10 neighbor then it will soon be indistinguishable
from the TL10 world.

I can give an almost real world example of this. In 1979 I traveled to
Europe for the first time. I noticed that when I was in France people
dressed a certain way. Stores and restaurants looked a certain way. When I
went to Italy they looked different. When I visited Spain different still.
They could be said to have different CT's (Cultural Levels.)

In 1997 I visited Europe again. As I sat dreaming in a Burger King I
observed the light of the giant neon SONY sign reflect off of the Kentucky
Fried Chicken across the street. Volvos, Fords, Toyotas, and VW's crowded
the roads. Teenagers, in a Anime logo t-shirts and Hard Rock Caf ball caps
zipped by listening to MP3 players made by Phillips Electronics in China. By
looking out the window I could not determine which country I was in. Heck I
could have been southern California or Atlanta. The CT's of the countries
had blurred so as to make one indistinguishable from another.



Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of richard honeycutt
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 5:34 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Rockballs and Economics

Terry Carlino wrote:

>"basically I only get that stuff when someone pries it
>out of the owners cold dead hand or the spouse sells it off after the
>divorce."
>
    Best compliment possible of the older rules....plus I have them
already, so
that is what I shall play with.

>
>That being the case try to realize that quoting a book like Pocket Empires,
>as a source is somewhat problematic. First it's T4 material, which is
>generally considered to be rather poorly put together by many Traveller
>players. Second it models the early Imperium so like Trillion Credit
>Squadrons may not be said to accurately reflect the later Imperium, which
is
>after all a full millennium in the future of the period described. Thirdly
>it is not available for direct research by many here, so if used as a
source
>your post might be better if it included a sizable quote of the relevant
>material.
>
    T4 or not, 'Pocket Empires' is an excellent set of rules, just as
long as one realizes
That it models economies and politics, but not much else. It is based on
sound
economic theory ( but obviously simplified ).
    Do people in the late Imperium do business radically different than
in Year 0?
Are the politics that much different?  If not, then why can these rules
not simulate
trade and treaties during and after the Rebellion. If anything, it would
seem ideal
to simulate a post-virus 'Second Night'.



_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 19:18:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Tue Aug 20 18:18:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Lasers and sound
References: <200208170434.MYF00163@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <20020818222310.GB19235@saltmine.radix.net> <O$quYzAMeoY9EwPl@bzb1.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3D62CAB9.7050504@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Ben Bell wrote:

> You sound surprised. Why would there be sound? The only sound I'd 
> imagine there could be would be as things boil and cook. Remember there 
> is no real projectile here, no shock wave as from a ballistic weapons. 
> Sound is waves in the air. No sound. Simple. Aren't lasers wonderful. No 
> sound and a lot of the times no visible part either.

Bzzt...thank you for playing 'Low Energy Ideas with High Energy Weapons'

Next time you go outside during a thunderstorm, listen for the big 
'CRACK-BOOM' noises.

Note that they are often *miles* away.

No projectile there, no shockwave as from a ballistic weapon.

Just the sound of a bucketload of energy going through the air (much 
like a laser), superheating it as it goes. This superheating expands the 
air, producing, as you may note, one heck of a shockwave.

To blow something up you need to deliver a lot of energy at the point of 
blowing up.

You flat out cannot make a laser that will be absorbed by what your 
shooting at and at the same time be perfectly invisible to matter, ie: 
air, otherwise it won't be absorbed by your target either.

Air is not opaque. (those of you living in LA, Denver or Mexico City can 
certainly attest to that! ;-) *some* of the energy from the laser is 
going to be absorbed by the air, or components, like dust, suspended in 
the air. This heats up, often quickly, and expands rapidly. When enough 
of it expands rapidly enough, you get a shockwave.

Kaboom!

Worse, when you do dump some energy into the air on the way by, you 
generate chemical compounds, and eventually, as it gets hotter, plasmas 
that are often even more opaque to the radiation.

How opaque depends on the wavelengths in use. The more opaque, the more 
energy dumped into the air. The more energy dumped into the air, the 
more superheating. The more superheating, the louder the boom.

Someone's description of a orbital laser shooting something on the 
ground as 'a perfectly straight lightning bolt coming from the sky' is 
pretty much correct.

It will *sound* like one, as well.

Much of the fireball and shockwave from a nuclear blast is from air 
absorbing the 'invisible' X-rays which are most of the energy put out 
from a fission or fusion bomb.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 19:23:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Aug 20 18:23:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
In-Reply-To: <3D627761.2020709@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <20820.030913.4C8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020820180524.009e3710@mindspring.com>

At 10:07 AM 8/20/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>>>Not just that, but evaluate and choose the person who will be 
>>>killed.  You have to be able to say "I will kill that Colonel first, 
>>>then the radioman." and do it.
>>
>>I assume that's because you *have* to get the Colonel, but getting the
>>radionan is "merely" very important.
>
>Nope, it's because if you pop the Colonel, the radio man will duck, call 
>in an arty strike on your likely position and kill you.
>
>If you pop the radioman first, you will not likely get another shot at the 
>important target, so you have a much better chance of surviving, but you 
>missed the target.

Actually, Leonard is right.  If the mission is to paralyze the 757th 
Mortorized Rifle Regiment for a day so the Americans can form for a 
counter-attack, killing the Colonel is far more important.  Even if this 
reduces your chances of making it out alive.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 19:31:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Tue Aug 20 18:31:15 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <20020820194331.d119df9a62164a369a9bca6231b2c258.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>Cheng Tseng wrote:
>
>> Okay, you convert the charming people in FARC to such nice fellows and THEN
>> I will think about supporting drug legalization.
>
>Puleeze. If drugs are legalized do you think that FARC stands a 
>snowballs chance in hell against Philip-Morris, Anhauser Busch, or Merck?
>
>LOL! If drugs are legalized, big corporations are going to take it over, 
>period.

Do you think the companies have field armies?  Would FARC really care?  They
sell the drugs to the companies and use the profits to fund a Marxist
dictatorship in Columbia.

Thank, but no.

>If FARC is lucky they'll be able to transform themselves into some sort 
>of corporate middleman, where they'll soon succumb to the lure of money.
>
>If not, they'll dwindle to a tiny residue of bitter, irrelevant, aging 
>revolutionaries sitting around cafes grumbling about how terrible things 
>are.

Yeah, I think that last Columbian administration wished that was true.

>> Think of it: the end of Prohibition did not make the Mafia go away, did it?
>> All it did was to put them in different lines of work.  
>
>What Prohibition *did* was make the Mafia big enough to *need* another 
>line of work.

One of the intents of ending Prohibition was that it would "get rid" of
groups like the Mafia, which had grown powerful with the imposition of
Prohibition.  Alas, criminal organizations are like government programs -
once they are around, it is next to impossible to get rid of them.

People who think the criminal syndicates like the cartels and the groups
like FARC will go away when you legalize drugs are just asking for a shock.

C.T.

<snip>



"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 19:36:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Tue Aug 20 18:36:46 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <20020820195851.7914bed2900a404689b8ea2288e18414.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng) writes:
>> 
>> > I like to use the example of liquor distributors in the first
>> > Prohibition: they were evil, murderous men.  But nowaday they tend
>> > to be family men you'd not be surprised to see in church...
>> 
>> Think of it: the end of Prohibition did not make the Mafia go away,
>> did it?  All it did was to put them in different lines of work.
>> What makes you think FARC and the drug cartels are going to stand-up
>> and say "Well, fellas, now that we are legal businessmen, we are
>> going to be nice, upstanding citizens."
>
>Who cares about them?  Crime cannot compete with legitimate business
>(that's why the Mafia left alcohol distribution and, more recently,
>Vegas gambling).  If marijuana, cocaine, LSD, methamphetamine, opium
>&c. were legitimate businesses, those involved in them would be no
>more objectionable that a liquor distributor is these days.

"Well, if we get rid of all the laws, then there would be no crime."

While I, as a Pennsylvanian, would debate whether the end of Prohibition has
really removed the thuggish, criminal element from the sale of alcohol
(Anybody who has ever watched the PLCB - AKA the Pennsylvania Liquer Control
Board - would probably agree that thug-idiots are still running things.),
the idea that legalizing drugs would put the criminal elements currently
engaged in the drug trade out of business is naive, to put it mildly.  They
would simply move to a different line of work, as the Mafia did after
Prohibition.  And that would not affect the OTHER illegal activities they
are engaged in, unless you support the legalization of kidnapping for ransom
as FARC has been doing.

Since I have other business to do soon, let if suffice it to say that drug
legalization is one area where I agree with Bill O'Reilly's view.  And it
seem that most Americans agree with that sentiment.

If you want to agree for legalization, then that is your right.  But arguing
that you should legalize LSD or saying it will put the criminals out of
business does not help your case. (Why do you WANT to legalize LSD?  Sorry,
I am not terribly interested in legally giving someone the ability to go on
an acid trip.).

C.T.


"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 19:41:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Aug 20 18:41:52 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Vulcan bits
In-Reply-To: <31.2bc0b2c5.2a93cdf0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020821000543.29FE527940@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/20/02 at 12:53 PM,  GypsyComet@aol.com said:

>TWB writes:

>>There is a Vulcan on display at the Castle Air Museum near Merced, CA.
>>Quite a striking looking airplane.  
>>

>Ah yes, the museum in Atwater. I've walked around under that very
>aircraft  within the past year, musing that I now had a feel for what
>walking around  under a Type S (or a gig) was like...

More like a ship's boat, I suspect. <g>

A Type S is would be the equivalent of a 5,000 square foot
house....say 2 story, 40' x 60'... on wheels, with wings, and a tail
sticking up at the rear. <g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 19:48:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Tue Aug 20 18:48:53 2002
Subject: [TML] spreading tech knowledge
In-Reply-To: <10.23af07c9.2a9425c1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029891558.8606.ajackson@ping>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:

>  >Good question.  Why _aren't_ almost all worlds at Imperial tech?
> 
> One might ask a similar question of modern Africa.

Well, truth is, you can get an awful lot of TL 7 goods in africa, if you want
to; by some of the definitions given, Africa is about TL 6.  Certainly, their
weapons tend to be TL 6.

Africa is an excellent example of a plausible low-tech society.  Its primary
distinguishing economic feature isn't the fact that it's low tech, its primary
distinguishing feature is that it has 1/50 of the per capita GDP of the US.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 20:14:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Tue Aug 20 19:14:04 2002
Subject: [TML] The Frontier Wars; The other side of the hill
In-Reply-To: <166.1283bb49.2a942710@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c248b8$4ffd0700$0b01a8c0@duck>

>  >     I don't know if FFE has reprinted it yet, but you will find the 
>  >Spinward Marches Campaign absolutely fascinating.
> 
> I'll look it up.  Thanks.

No, they haven't.

Their next scheduled reprint is JTAS 25-32?.  This is the CT JTAS material
that was folded into their Challenge magazine.  Last I saw, this was due
out this month (August), but haven't seen *anything* about its current
state.

After that is supposed to be Classic Modules, which includes SMC.  I doubt
anyone has any idea when it will come out.

After the Classic Modules should come reprints of the Alien Modules series.
I figure we will be very, very lucky if they appear before this time next
year.

(I do believe they will eventually be release, but it could take quite
a while.)

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 20:18:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 20 19:18:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
Message-ID: <c3.2793068a.2a94520a@aol.com>

 >>Some of those flight officer cabins are at the head of a catapault.  Try
 >>sleeping there during flight ops.
 >
 >I would expect that that's not a problems, since during flight ops the
 >inhabitants of those cabins are likely to be on deck in their planes sitting
 >on those catapults.

Well, the inhabitants said it was.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 20:25:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue Aug 20 19:25:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020820180524.009e3710@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020821022438.C53E827940@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/20/02 at 06:07 PM,  Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
said:

>Actually, Leonard is right.  If the mission is to paralyze the 757th 
>Mortorized Rifle Regiment for a day so the Americans can form for a 
>counter-attack, killing the Colonel is far more important.  Even if
>this  reduces your chances of making it out alive.

Wouldn't the *radio* be a better target than the radioman or the
Colonel? No radio, no commands into the Colonel or out from the
Colonel. Of course, there *could* be multiple radios...<g>

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 21:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Aug 20 20:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] spreading tech knowledge
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1029891558.8606.ajackson@ping>
References: <10.23af07c9.2a9425c1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020820225351.02996008@192.168.0.1>

At 05:59 PM 8/20/2002 -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Flykiller@aol.com writes:
> >  >Good question.  Why _aren't_ almost all worlds at Imperial tech?
> > One might ask a similar question of modern Africa.
>Well, truth is, you can get an awful lot of TL 7 goods in africa, if you want
>to; by some of the definitions given, Africa is about TL 6.  Certainly, their
>weapons tend to be TL 6.
>Africa is an excellent example of a plausible low-tech society.  Its primary
>distinguishing economic feature isn't the fact that it's low tech, its primary
>distinguishing feature is that it has 1/50 of the per capita GDP of the US.

What's key in Africa is what bit of Africa you're in.
When I was in South Africa a few years ago, I saw neighborhoods in Capetown 
that reminded me of Encino, CA.
I also saw shanty towns....  TL 7/8 right next to TL 4...

It's also a good example of how politics can play a factor in keeping tech 
levels down.
A family member who used to live in Capetown was a licensed physician (she 
is a GP and was practicing in Canada previously).
She couldn't practice medicine in South Africa, because she didn't go to 
medical school in South Africa.
However, medical school in Cuba was good enough to practice there...

Hmmm...Panama, at least when I lived there in the 70's is/was another good 
example.  The Zone was a 10x50 mile strip of America.
Out side the Zone, outside the city...extreme poverty and low tech...


----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Government does not cause affluence. Citizens of totalitarian
countries have plenty of government and nothing of anything
else." -- P. J. O'Rourke, EAT THE RICH
----------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 21:04:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Aug 20 20:04:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Lasers and sound
In-Reply-To: <3D62CAB9.7050504@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <B9885111.6A765%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/20/02 4:03 PM, Bruce Johnson at johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu wrote:

>=20
> Bzzt...thank you for playing 'Low Energy Ideas with High Energy Weapons'
>=20
> Next time you go outside during a thunderstorm, listen for the big
> 'CRACK-BOOM' noises.
>=20
> Note that they are often *miles* away.
>=20
> No projectile there, no shockwave as from a ballistic weapon.
>=20
> Just the sound of a bucketload of energy going through the air (much
> like a laser), superheating it as it goes. This superheating expands the
> air, producing, as you may note, one heck of a shockwave.

So even a laser carbine or rifle may be expected to make an audible snap?

How much energy in a laser before it becomes audible?

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 21:08:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Aug 20 20:08:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Landgrab webring
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020820230300.02996008@mail.charter.net>

Up to nine active sites, not counting the ring homepage, that makes eight 
sites detailing worlds.

http://www.urbin.net/EWW/RPG/TRAV/LGWR/


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 21:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Aug 20 20:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] General landgrab question
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020820230453.026b9008@mail.charter.net>

I had did some work on the planet Venice in Reavers' Deep for the TNE 
Pocket Empire Group.

Would that count as a landgrab?
<http://www.urbin.net/EWW/RPG/SV/TRAV/Venice_data.htm>



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 21:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Aug 20 20:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] General landgrab question
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020820230453.026b9008@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <20020821032015.90091.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>

If so, you probably want to add the BARD planetary
writeups to the web ring.

Paul

--- Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> I had did some work on the planet Venice in Reavers'
> Deep for the TNE 
> Pocket Empire Group.
> 
> Would that count as a landgrab?
>
<http://www.urbin.net/EWW/RPG/SV/TRAV/Venice_data.htm>
> 
> 
> 
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
> "Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation
> triple bypass: cruising for
> burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines
> entangled, roadkill cooked"
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


__________________________________________________
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HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 21:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Tue Aug 20 20:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] General landgrab question
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020820230453.026b9008@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <000d01c248c5$5220be70$0b01a8c0@duck>

> I had did some work on the planet Venice in Reavers' Deep for the TNE
> Pocket Empire Group.
>
> Would that count as a landgrab?
> <http://www.urbin.net/EWW/RPG/SV/TRAV/Venice_data.htm>

Has it been submitted to the TML or listed at
http://www.downport.com/landgrab/ ?

Personally, I think to be on the Landgrab webring, it should be an
actual Landgrab.

This is NOT to be exclusionary, just to keep things consistent.

IMO, anyway.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 21:51:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug 20 20:51:05 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020820194331.d119df9a62164a369a9bca6231b2c258.in@keywest.kennett.net>
References: <20020820194331.d119df9a62164a369a9bca6231b2c258.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <20020821135013.A15072@freeman.little-possums.net>

Cheng Tseng wrote:
> They sell the drugs to the companies and use the profits to fund a
> Marxist dictatorship in Columbia.

Currently they sell for hundreds to tens of thousands of times what
they cost to produce.  If legalised, there's no way a company is going
to pay anywhere near that much.  American organisations would be able
to undercut Columbian drug lords by a massive factor and *still* make
huge profits.

No, the foreign drug cartels won't go away if you legalise drugs.
However, their profits will drop by orders of magnitude, and a lot
more of it will stay in the US.

The fact is that by supporting the New Prohibition and hence
artificially increasing prices for their product on the black market,
you *are* funding them.  Like it or not.

Wouldn't you rather support US drug companies?


> Alas, criminal organizations are like government programs - once
> they are around, it is next to impossible to get rid of them.

True, but you can make it a lot less attractive.  Artificially pushing
prices up to hundreds of thousands of dollars per kilogram for stuff
that isn't really that hard to produce makes it a *really* attractive
line of business.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 21:54:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Colin)
Date: Tue Aug 20 20:54:35 2002
Subject: [TML] General landgrab question
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020820230453.026b9008@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGELJECAA.tml@jtas.org>

The original daffy-nition for the Landgrab was that it be in the Spinward
Marches, but I have posted grabs outside. But then, I'm a heretic. If you
don't mind burning at the stake with me, go for it ;)
________________________________________

This is living...
   This is style...
      This is elegance,
         By the mile!

O the posh posh travelling life the travelling life for me
First cabin and captain's table regal company
Whenever I'm bored I travel abroad, but ever so properly
Port out, starboard home, posh with a capital P-O-S-H, posh

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com

I had did some work on the planet Venice in Reavers' Deep for the TNE
Pocket Empire Group.

Would that count as a landgrab?
<http://www.urbin.net/EWW/RPG/SV/TRAV/Venice_data.htm>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 22:01:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 20 21:01:04 2002
Subject: [TML] spreading tech knowledge
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020820225351.02996008@192.168.0.1>
References: <10.23af07c9.2a9425c1@aol.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020820225351.02996008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <4619.64.8.3.28.1029902411.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

What it really boils down to here is whether or not the people there have
a high enough standard of living to afford the trappings of High Tech.  In
other words, if the people are too poor, there is no need to lay in the
infrastructure that will permit these people to live at the highest level
of technological luxury.  None the less, those who are educated - are
educated according to the current standards of technology and knowledge
capabilities.  Just that fewer are educated than perhaps is desired...



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 22:12:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Aug 20 21:12:04 2002
Subject: [TML] General landgrab question
In-Reply-To: <000d01c248c5$5220be70$0b01a8c0@duck>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020820230453.026b9008@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020821000834.0246a918@192.168.0.1>

At 10:46 PM 8/20/2002 -0500, Mike West wrote:
> > I had did some work on the planet Venice in Reavers' Deep for the TNE
> > Pocket Empire Group.
> >
> > Would that count as a landgrab?
> > <http://www.urbin.net/EWW/RPG/SV/TRAV/Venice_data.htm>
>
>Has it been submitted to the TML or listed at
>http://www.downport.com/landgrab/ ?

Well, it's been posted to the TML before. ...I was asking about the 
original landgrab charter.
I haven't seen a planet from Reavers' Deep listed as a landgrab.

>Personally, I think to be on the Landgrab webring, it should be an
>actual Landgrab.

I agree, and since I'm the ringmaster.... :-)



------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Writing about jazz is like dancing about
architecture" -- Thelonius Monk
------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 22:16:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Aug 20 21:16:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Roseberry's Potpouri [was other stuff]
Message-ID: <3D631206.F89CD5F5@mail.cswnet.com>

Greetings Fellow Travellers! 
Some bits on some topics of interest...

On Sweden:
Douglas Berry says
>Tell me, if I came up to you and insisted that Sweden was a
>threat to our way of life, what would you say?

My grandmother would say you probably have some Norwegian ancestry in
your family. Exactly why this is I can't say, but alot of the old folks
on my moms side of the family have a deep distrust of Swedes. I have yet
to figure out why, but its probably something leftover from the old
country. Maybe our Scandanavian posters could explain...

Vulcan bits:

At the 8th Airforce Museum at Barksdale AFB, LA, they have a rather
dillapidated Vulcan on static display. Actually, if your in the right
frame of mind, the thing kinda looks like a Serpent Class Scout. Same
base has an one of Mings Mig-21s, minus the engine.

USS Texas:

Got to see this the day after I hit Johnson Space Center. Very neat.
I think the crew had like 5 bunks stacked on top of each other. Got to
train one of the quad 40mm guns on a nearby cargo ship. FIRE!

Names for your Tigress:

>From Beatrix Potter;
Tom Kitten, Moppet, Mittens, Tabitha Twitchit

>From Grims Fairy Tales IIRC;
Puss-n-Boots

And others:
Siberian Tiger[ress], Black Cat, Zell Cat [same as black cat],
Black Manx, etc. Just about any name for a cat [I've got a whole book
full].

View before eating:
Larsen writes:
>Fortunately, thanks to Mr. Glenn's superb List management efforts, >all of you spared a color photo of yours' truly in swimming togs. >(shudder)

Hmmm. Larsen with Ghost White Legs. Yes, I'm glad we were sparred.
[sorry Larsen, that was just too easy.]

Phill Webb/Aramis Navy builds:

I'm still working on it. I've finished off the Yebab fleet. I see what
you mean with Human officers running Junidy ships. But, assuming we go
that way, wouldn't that happen after 1108, not 1106. BTC says that the
Humans take over after the election in 1108. I'm gonna have to look into
this a little further. I do have two ships built like the Klingon ships
from Task Force Games eg ships with "security stations" to keep an eye
on the second class crew, just in case I decide to go that way.

Finnaly, in the Too much time on our hands department:

In between doing the nurse thing for my mother who had the gall to take
her gal bladder out [yes she just got a knife and dug it right out] I've
had the opportunity to watch Babylon 5 again. In the chrome for
Traveller department:

The navigational beacon for Mars is M9919A [from the show prior to
"endgame"
The navigational beacon for Earth is 11629 [from "endgame"]

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches
PS "Penguins is practically Chickens" --anonymous railroad hobo, from
BugsBunny.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 23:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Tue Aug 20 22:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Sociability
Message-ID: <3D631DC0.4677CAD8@mail.cswnet.com>

>From the COTI site:

"To explain a little more how the SOC thing is going to work:
Everyone has a Sociability point total that is accumulated through   
various means, such as posting messages here on the forums
(1 point each), contributing to the Library Data system, contributing
TAS News Bulletins, or writing features or full articles for the     
website.

                 Sociability
                 -> SOC Score
                 00 - SOC-1
                 03 - SOC-2
                 05 - SOC-3
                 07 - SOC-4
                 09 - SOC-5
                 11 - SOC-6
                 16 - SOC-7
                 21 - SOC-8
                 26 - SOC-9
                 31 - SOC-10
                 51 - SOC-11
                 101 - SOC-12
                 501 - SOC-13
                 1001 - SOC-14

                 Hunter"

Looking at this thru the TML, the Ship Rodeo alone got me to SOC-12.
About 180 or so more posts gets me SOC-13. Thats for this year alone.
Course thru COTI I'm a measly SOC-3. 

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 23:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue Aug 20 22:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020821000541.02030a88@mail.qrc.com>

At 08:21 AM 8/19/2002, Walt Smith wrote:
>Earlier this month I had the pleasure of a day-trip to the Cape Fear, 
>North Carolina area.  [...]  However, the best part of the trip was about 
>four hours spent exploring the battleship USS North Carolina in Wilmington, NC.

I just got back from a trip to Hawaii, and they have a similar arrangement 
for the USS Missouri at Pearl Harbor.  I spent a day there, visiting the 
USS Arizona memorial, the USS Bowfin and it's submariner's museum, and the 
USS Missouri which is docked on "Battleship Row" over at Ford Island.  If 
you're ever there, it's a must-see.

The tour arrangement sounds similar, but I believe that more of the USS 
North Carolina is open to the public - I was not able to get into the 
engineering or fire-director spaces on the Missouri, although I did get to 
visit the CEC.  One of the things that impressed me was the contrast 
between the original WWII "racks" and the "modern" racks that were 
installed during the last refit.



   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 23:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue Aug 20 22:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020821000541.02030a88@mail.qrc.com>

At 08:21 AM 8/19/2002, Walt Smith wrote:
>Earlier this month I had the pleasure of a day-trip to the Cape Fear, 
>North Carolina area.  [...]  However, the best part of the trip was about 
>four hours spent exploring the battleship USS North Carolina in Wilmington, NC.

I just got back from a trip to Hawaii, and they have a similar arrangement 
for the USS Missouri at Pearl Harbor.  I spent a day there, visiting the 
USS Arizona memorial, the USS Bowfin and it's submariner's museum, and the 
USS Missouri which is docked on "Battleship Row" over at Ford Island.  If 
you're ever there, it's a must-see.

The tour arrangement sounds similar, but I believe that more of the USS 
North Carolina is open to the public - I was not able to get into the 
engineering or fire-director spaces on the Missouri, although I did get to 
visit the CEC.  One of the things that impressed me was the contrast 
between the original WWII "racks" and the "modern" racks that were 
installed during the last refit.



   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 23:17:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue Aug 20 22:17:04 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020821000956.0208b0b0@mail.io.com>

At 10:34 AM 8/19/2002, Cheng Tseng wrote:
>also the NEW JERSEY, who has her Phalanx mounts unlike her sisters

The Missouri still has her Phalanx, Harpoon, and Tomahawk mounts, as well 
as her reconnaissance drone.  The fire control stations for the Tomahawk 
and drone are still in the CEC, as are the air-search and surface-search 
radars, but the Phalanx stations have been removed.

>Technically, the NORTH CAROLINA, the MASSACHUSETTS, the ALABAMA, and IOWAs
>count too...

Most references tend to classify US battleships into three major groups:
Pre-Dreadnoughts, Dreadnoughts, and Fast Battleships.

The Pre-Dreadnoughts were BB-01 (USS Indiana, 1893) through BB-25 (USS New 
Hampshire, 1906), and are distinguished by mixed-caliber main guns 
(generally two or three different calibers between 7 and 13 inches).  They 
have reciprocating steam engines for propulsion, with top speeds between 15 
and 19 knots, and displace 10,000-16,000 tons.  One ship of this era 
(BB-03, USS Oregon) had been preserved as a memorial in Portland, 
1925-1942.  However, her hull was used as an auxiliary in WWII, and the 
ship was scrapped following the war, no American ships of this era remain.

The Dreadnoughts are the response to the HMS Dreadnought of 1909, a 
single-caliber design that was considered to render pre-dreadnought designs 
obsolete.  BB-26 (USS South Carolina, 1910) was the first of the US 
"dreadnought battleships".  The USS West Virginia (BB-48, 1923) was the 
last; BB-49 through BB-54 were under construction but cancelled by the 
Washington Naval Treaty of 1922.  During this period, displacements grew 
from 16,000 tons to 32,000 tons, speeds increased to 21 knots, 
turbo-electric drive (an American peculiarity) replaced reciprocating 
engines, and main armament increased to 8 16"/45 guns.  Due to the same 
treaty and the Great Depression, no new battleships were commissioned for 
18 years.  One ship of this era, the USS Texas (BB-35, 1914) is preserved, 
and is (to my knowledge) the only ship remaining that served in both WWI 
and WWII.

The Fast Battleships begin with BB-55 (the USS North Carolina, 1940), at 
35,000 tons and capable of 28 knots.  This was a 7-knot improvement, 
greater than the 6-knot increase for the entire 1983-1923 period, and 
enabled the battleships to keep up with the carrier battle groups.  The 
Fast Battleships continued through the USS Wisconsin (BB-64, 1944) at 
45,000 tons and 33 knots.  All were armed with 9 16" guns, and turbine 
drive replaced the turbo-electric propulsion.  Two more Iowa-class ships 
(BB-65 and 66) were cancelled, as was BB-65 through BB-71, a class of 
60,000 ton, 12-gun responses to the Yamato and Musashi.  Almost all of the 
Fast Battleships still exist; only USS Washington (BB-56) and BB-58 (USS 
Indiana) were scrapped.

>There is also an WW2 fleet boat there.

In Baltimore, that would be the USS Torsk; it's a WWII fleet boat 
modernized for early cold war service.  It's interesting to compare it with 
the USS Bowfin (also a WWII fleet boat, but unmodernized).  In addition to 
the Constellation and Torsk, there is also a Chesapeake Bay lightship and a 
Coast Guard cutter you can tour in Baltimore harbor.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 23:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue Aug 20 22:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020820195851.7914bed2900a404689b8ea2288e18414.in@keywest.kennett.net>
References: <20020820195851.7914bed2900a404689b8ea2288e18414.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <m3ptwckcb1.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng) writes:
> 
> Well, if we get rid of all the laws, then there would be no crime.

When the laws are fundamentally evil, they should be gotten rid of.  I
do not say they are incorrect, or misguided--although they are those
things--but that they are _evil_.

The point is, they outlaw activity which is _not_ an offense against
one's fellow man, and thereby make it possible for criminals to make
absurd profits.  Those who support prohibition support crime; they
support terrorism; they support the FARC and a hillion grillion other
like groups.

> Since I have other business to do soon, let if suffice it to say
> that drug legalization is one area where I agree with Bill
> O'Reilly's view.  And it seem that most Americans agree with that
> sentiment.

Same could have been said of the Ignoble Experiment at one time...

> If you want to agree for legalization, then that is your right.  But
> arguing that you should legalize LSD or saying it will put the
> criminals out of business does not help your case. (Why do you WANT
> to legalize LSD?  Sorry, I am not terribly interested in legally
> giving someone the ability to go on an acid trip.).

Same could have been said of the Ignoble Experiment at one time...

I want to legalise LSD et al. because I am not God: I do not consider
myself worthy to force my fellow man to live his life as I see fit.
Come to think of it, neither does God: He lets us live as we will, a
liberty the prohibitionists will not allow.

ObTrav: Why is the Imperium so lax in its restrictions?  Precisely
because there is no way that a single man, or a single body of men,
can determine what is right and appropriate for quintillions of
sophonts (or however many it is there are).  Any attempt would be
folly, in all likelihood.  And, as pointed out above, it'd only give
groups such as the Ine Givar a way to make money.  It's a
lose-lose-lose situation.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`If you don't smoke and you're in a bar, don't complain about other
people who happen to be smoking, because, virtuous friend, you are in a
bar.'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 20 23:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue Aug 20 22:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] travlib 0.6.4
Message-ID: <m3k7mkkc1y.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

I'm pleased to announce the release of travlib 0.6.4.  I've added a
test suite which exercises every public function of every class.  In
distribution-related issues, I've started using gnits checking and
added shar and bzip2 distributions.

It's a fairly minor release, but I'm rather proud of the test suite.
It uncovered a few bugs, and has provided a way to be more certain
that changes do not break previous code.

I've also added the framework necessary to restrict the children an
object might have.  Thus a galaxy can only have sectors as children,
not planets or systems.  This should be a boon to those who extend
travlib, so that we do not have such absurdities as a Scout ship with
an internal star.  This can all be customised, of course, so if you
_want_ that to happen, you can.

The site is at <http://travtrack.sf.net/>.  Please take a look and let
me know what you think.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
They say `the early bird gets the worm.'  What they often fail to
consider, however, is the early cat.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 00:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Tue Aug 20 23:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <20020821015438.31342fea6cbc46c6917d2b4a00ec6cab.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>> Well, if we get rid of all the laws, then there would be no crime.
>
>When the laws are fundamentally evil, they should be gotten rid of.  I
>do not say they are incorrect, or misguided--although they are those
>things--but that they are _evil_.

Evil how?  Some of the laws that come from the war on drugs are (See civil
forfeiture.).  However, you can make the case for every part of the law,
both the criminal and the civil code.  Some people object to the concept of
firearm ownership because of it being "evil."  You obviously support right
to own firearms and so do I, and equally so, some people, like me, believe
that we should not legalize narcotics.

>The point is, they outlaw activity which is _not_ an offense against
>one's fellow man, and thereby make it possible for criminals to make
>absurd profits.  Those who support prohibition support crime; they
>support terrorism; they support the FARC and a hillion grillion other
>like groups.

An interesting argument.  However, trying to mimize drugs to "well, it is
only hurting me and not everybody else" is a utopian argument that does not
bear out in reality.  Drug addicts tends to have a very big impact when they
crash, and it is not confined to just them.

Moving on the illicit profits, the reason why they are vast is because the
business itself is a dangerous one.  If it was legal, the profits would
drop, but then, so would the cost (No more cops coming after you.).  That
makes it more accessible to more players.  If you think people have a tough
time trying to avoid the sea of narcotics surrounding them, wait until
legalization when the sea becomes and ocean.

>> Since I have other business to do soon, let if suffice it to say
>> that drug legalization is one area where I agree with Bill
>> O'Reilly's view.  And it seem that most Americans agree with that
>> sentiment.
>
>Same could have been said of the Ignoble Experiment at one time...

Same thing can be said about gun ownership.  Count your blessings Ed Rendell
is not running for your state's governorship.

>> If you want to agree for legalization, then that is your right.  But
>> arguing that you should legalize LSD or saying it will put the
>> criminals out of business does not help your case. (Why do you WANT
>> to legalize LSD?  Sorry, I am not terribly interested in legally
>> giving someone the ability to go on an acid trip.).
>
>Same could have been said of the Ignoble Experiment at one time...

Same thing can be said about gun ownership.

>I want to legalise LSD et al. because I am not God: I do not consider
>myself worthy to force my fellow man to live his life as I see fit.
>Come to think of it, neither does God: He lets us live as we will, a
>liberty the prohibitionists will not allow.

With all the information about LSD, I am stunned to hear something so
amazingly naive.  The drug serves no useful purpose (Which annoys the
efficiency part in me.) and the dangers are well known.  But you apparently
can not make a judgement call on a person trying to take the drug.

Better hope nobody on a crack high or acid trip is driving a car near you.

C.T.



"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 00:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Guy Garnett)
Date: Tue Aug 20 23:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <F161G4yBt9tmFbklhaD000073a8@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020820224912.02009eb0@mail.qrc.com>

At 08:21 AM 8/19/2002, Walt Smith wrote:
>Earlier this month I had the pleasure of a day-trip to the Cape Fear, 
>North Carolina area.  [...]  However, the best part of the trip was about 
>four hours spent exploring the battleship USS North Carolina in Wilmington, NC.

I just got back from a trip to Hawaii, and they have a similar arrangement 
for the USS Missouri at Pearl Harbor.  I spent a day there, visiting the 
USS Arizona memorial, the USS Bowfin and it's submariner's museum, and the 
USS Missouri which is docked on "Battleship Row" over at Ford Island.  If 
you're ever there, it's a must-see.

The tour arrangement sounds similar, but I believe that more of the USS 
North Carolina is open to the public - I was not able to get into the 
engineering or fire-director spaces on the Missouri, although I did get to 
visit the CEC.  One of the things that impressed me was the contrast 
between the original WWII "racks" and the "modern" racks that were 
installed during the last refit.



Guy "wildstar" Garnett                                   wildstar@qrc.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
IMTU: tc+ tm tn- t4-$ tg+ tt ru+ ge++ 3i+ c++ jt au st++ ls pi+/- ta he+
       kk hi va++ as++ dr+ so+ zh+ da+ sy-


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 00:15:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue Aug 20 23:15:47 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020820233427.020d2260@mail.qrc.com>

At 08:21 AM 8/19/2002, Walt Smith wrote:
>Earlier this month I had the pleasure of a day-trip to the Cape Fear, 
>North Carolina area.  [...]  However, the best part of the trip was about 
>four hours spent exploring the battleship USS North Carolina in Wilmington, NC.

I just got back from a trip to Hawaii, and they have a similar arrangement 
for the USS Missouri at Pearl Harbor.  I spent a day there, visiting the 
USS Arizona memorial, the USS Bowfin and it's submariner's museum, and the 
USS Missouri which is docked on "Battleship Row" over at Ford Island.  If 
you're ever there, it's a must-see.

The tour arrangement sounds similar, but I believe that more of the USS 
North Carolina is open to the public - I was not able to get into the 
engineering or fire-director spaces on the Missouri, although I did get to 
visit the CEC.  One of the things that impressed me was the contrast 
between the original WWII "racks" and the "modern" racks that were 
installed during the last refit.



Guy "wildstar" Garnett                                   wildstar@qrc.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
IMTU: tc+ tm tn- t4-$ tg+ tt ru+ ge++ 3i+ c++ jt au st++ ls pi+/- ta he+
       kk hi va++ as++ dr+ so+ zh+ da+ sy-


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 00:18:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue Aug 20 23:18:39 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020819103209.ac4dd7f1f52e45c684e69acce58c3181.in@keywest
 .kennett.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020820230102.02020340@mail.qrc.com>

At 10:34 AM 8/19/2002, Cheng Tseng wrote:
>also the NEW JERSEY, who has her Phalanx mounts unlike her sisters

The Missouri still has her Phalanx, Harpoon, and Tomahawk mounts, as well 
as her reconnaissance drone.  The fire control stations for the Tomahawk 
and drone are still in the CEC, as are the air-search and surface-search 
radars, but the Phalanx stations have been removed.

>Technically, the NORTH CAROLINA, the MASSACHUSETTS, the ALABAMA, and IOWAs
>count too...

Most references tend to classify US battleships into three major groups:
Pre-Dreadnoughts, Dreadnoughts, and Fast Battleships.

The Pre-Dreadnoughts were BB-01 (USS Indiana, 1893) through BB-25 (USS New 
Hampshire, 1906), and are distinguished by mixed-caliber main guns 
(generally two or three different calibers between 7 and 13 inches).  They 
have reciprocating steam engines for propulsion, with top speeds between 15 
and 19 knots, and displace 10,000-16,000 tons.  One ship of this era 
(BB-03, USS Oregon) had been preserved as a memorial in Portland, 
1925-1942.  However, her hull was used as an auxiliary in WWII, and the 
ship was scrapped following the war, no American ships of this era remain.

The Dreadnoughts are the response to the HMS Dreadnought of 1909, a 
single-caliber design that was considered to render pre-dreadnought designs 
obsolete.  BB-26 (USS South Carolina, 1910) was the first of the US 
"dreadnought battleships".  The USS West Virginia (BB-48, 1923) was the 
last; BB-49 through BB-54 were under construction but cancelled by the 
Washington Naval Treaty of 1922.  During this period, displacements grew 
from 16,000 tons to 32,000 tons, speeds increased to 21 knots, 
turbo-electric drive (an American peculiarity) replaced reciprocating 
engines, and main armament increased to 8 16"/45 guns.  Due to the same 
treaty and the Great Depression, no new battleships were commissioned for 
18 years.  One ship of this era, the USS Texas (BB-35, 1914) is preserved, 
and is (to my knowledge) the only ship remaining that served in both WWI 
and WWII.

The Fast Battleships begin with BB-55 (the USS North Carolina, 1940), at 
35,000 tons and capable of 28 knots.  This was a 7-knot improvement, 
greater than the 6-knot increase for the entire 1983-1923 period, and 
enabled the battleships to keep up with the carrier battle groups.  The 
Fast Battleships continued through the USS Wisconsin (BB-64, 1944) at 
45,000 tons and 33 knots.  All were armed with 9 16" guns, and turbine 
drive replaced the turbo-electric propulsion.  Two more Iowa-class ships 
(BB-65 and 66) were cancelled, as was BB-65 through BB-71, a class of 
60,000 ton, 12-gun responses to the Yamato and Musashi.

>There is also an WW2 fleet boat there.

In Baltimore, that would be the USS Torsk; it's a WWII fleet boat 
modernized for early cold war service.  It's interesting to compare it with 
the USS Bowfin (also a WWII fleet boat, but unmodernized).  In addition to 
the Constellation and Torsk, there is also a Chesapeake Bay lightship and a 
Coast Guard cutter you can tour in Baltimore harbor.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                "Safety Interlock, Disengaged!  Fire the Wave Motion Gun!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 00:22:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Aug 20 23:22:04 2002
Subject: [TML] spreading tech knowledge
In-Reply-To: <4619.64.8.3.28.1029902411.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <B9887E14.6A78C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/20/02 9:00 PM, hal@buffnet.net at hal@buffnet.net wrote:

> What it really boils down to here is whether or not the people there have
> a high enough standard of living to afford the trappings of High Tech.  I=
n
> other words, if the people are too poor, there is no need to lay in the
> infrastructure that will permit these people to live at the highest level
> of technological luxury.  None the less, those who are educated - are
> educated according to the current standards of technology and knowledge
> capabilities.  Just that fewer are educated than perhaps is desired...

It is interesting to note that while Terra at present may be rated as TL 7.=
5
or 8, that is the highest tech level present on the planet, with many areas
being significantly lower.  Is this typical for the Imperium as well?  Does
TL 15 just mean that one small area of the planet is capable of sustaining
this TL, while the rest of the world is quite a it lower?

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 00:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Clint Rynners)
Date: Tue Aug 20 23:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] spreading tech knowledge
Message-ID: <OF60373C77.1EF00FBF-ON42256C1C.00260A97@ko.com>

"Well, truth is, you can get an awful lot of TL 7 goods in africa, if you
want
to; by some of the definitions given, Africa is about TL 6.  Certainly,
their
weapons tend to be TL 6.

Africa is an excellent example of a plausible low-tech society.  Its
primary
distinguishing economic feature isn't the fact that it's low tech, its
primary
distinguishing feature is that it has 1/50 of the per capita GDP of the
US."

>From what I have seen, and I travel Central and Southern Africa
extensively, Africa is a bit more complicated than that. The nearest
Traveller equivalent for most would be technologically elevated
dicatorships or technologically elevated oligarchies. The vast majority of
the populations of most countries live in poverty and fulfill the
sterotypical image seen on news broadcasts in the first world. A small
elite (no longer just government officials from the ruling party, but also
highly educated successful business people and those working for large
multi-nationals) have lifestyles that would be the envy of most in the
first world. Every country I have visited has a thriving business
community, with modern hotels and facilities. It is proportionally a small
part of the population, but it is certainly bigger than you might think.

I wonder if this provides some possible answer to the tech level debate
that has been ongoing on the list? Picture a TL 2 world, where the local
merchant prince or noble waves to the peasants herding groats in the field
from his air/raft as he flies to his villa, which is itself equipped with
wonderful gadgetry bought off-world when he was visiting his kids studying
at a university on a distant high-tech, high-population world several
parsecs distant. The source of his wealth? A vein of zuchai crystals on his
land that are extracted by local slave labour and sold to traders at the
starport. Not enough of a rare resource to warrant a major mega-corp
stepping in and changing everything, but certainly enough to make the
low-tech noble in question wealthy by imperial statndards.

Regards

Clint Rynners


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 01:00:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug 21 00:00:09 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020821015438.31342fea6cbc46c6917d2b4a00ec6cab.in@keywest.kennett.net>
References: <20020821015438.31342fea6cbc46c6917d2b4a00ec6cab.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <20020821165736.A15266@freeman.little-possums.net>

Cheng Tseng wrote:
> If you think people have a tough time trying to avoid the sea of
> narcotics surrounding them,

Why would I think that?


> But you apparently can not make a judgement call on a person trying
> to take the drug.

I can make such a judgement call -- my judgement is that it is their
right to do so, provided that they do not enganger others.  If they do
endanger others by doing so, there are laws not specific to drugs that
suffice.


> Better hope nobody on a crack high or acid trip is driving a car
> near you.

What about jailing all blind people?  You don't want one of them
driving a car near you either.

And you are in favour of bringing back Prohibition of alcohol I take
it, using the same specious argument?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 02:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Wed Aug 21 01:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817092651.009de420@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <00d001c2497e$6e76edb0$1001a8c0@sauron>

Douglas Berry wrote :
> At 12:24 AM 8/17/02 -0400, you wrote:
> > As everyone will recall, it is the Zhodani that
> > are already starting wars that nobody wants.
>
> 4.5 wars in 500+ years.  By your logic we should
> *immediately* nuke Germany.

Or invade Iraq, perhaps ?
Just because it's crappy logic doesn't mean that governments won't
seriously consider, if not actually do, it.

<snip>
> Tell me, if I came up to you and insisted that Sweden was a
> threat to our way of life, what would you say?

_I'd_ say you were after the US Presidency and needed a bogus overseas
threat to make you look good to the voters.
<grin>

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 02:18:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Wed Aug 21 01:18:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <20817.035325.8b6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <00d101c2497f$76521400$1001a8c0@sauron>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Leonard Erickson
> Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2002 4:53 AM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Too much time on our hands
>
>
> In mail you write:
>
> > In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020814155827.00b54720@mailhost.efn.org>
> >
> >> I don't think that it's fair to start counting down without giving
> >> *some* hint as to what the characters should be reacting to.
> >
> > What if the 'clue' is a mechanical voice counting down?
>
> "I'm a thirty second bomb. I'm a thirty second bomb. 29..."
>
> I've got an electronic kitchen timer with an LCD display that has 1"
> tall digits. Might be fun to pre set it to something and when players
> ask "what do we see?" show that that, *after* hitting the
> start button.
> <eg>

For a live game a few years back, my character had brought along what
was supposed to be the jury-rigged business end of submarine-launched
nuclear weapon. It just sat in the corner after my character

To simulate this, I had a large rubbish bin sprayed silver-grey with
military-style codes and some trefoils on it.  Attached to this by
random cables plugged into the back of it was was a dull grey laptop
with a single application running full screeen on it.

It had a few standard entry fields labelled "user" and "password" and a
big red button.

At some point during the game I entered the pasword and pressed the big
red button, and it started counting down in numbers the size of the
laptop screen. My character then left the building.

Surprisingly, it took almost quarter of an hour for someone to notice
it, and a further quarter hour before most people started to realize
they might be in serious danger.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 02:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 21 01:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] spreading tech knowledge
In-Reply-To: <20020821051704.29554.23928.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17hQiM-0003Z9-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>

Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> wrote:

> Flykiller@aol.com writes:
> 
> >  >Good question.  Why _aren't_ almost all worlds at Imperial tech?
> > 
> > One might ask a similar question of modern Africa.
> 
> Well, truth is, you can get an awful lot of TL 7 goods in africa, if
> you want to; by some of the definitions given, Africa is about TL 6. 
> Certainly, their weapons tend to be TL 6.
> 
> Africa is an excellent example of a plausible low-tech society.  Its
> primary distinguishing economic feature isn't the fact that it's low
> tech, its primary distinguishing feature is that it has 1/50 of the
> per capita GDP of the US.

Consider this idea snagged for use in my future Trav games, this 
makes excellent sense.  Under everything from CT to GT high tech 
worlds can make lower tech gear notably cheaper than they can 
make gear of their own tech level.  So, my guess for low pop or non-
industrial low tech worlds is that most of them are buying their 
durable goods from TL 12-15 worlds who have large industries 
making and selling TL 6-9 goods to poor worlds.

Then again, if i was doing the TU, I'd put a lower limit of TL 9 on all 
Imperial worlds except those that have *recently (within the last 
century) been incorporated into the Imperium.  There's a minimum 
level I honestly wouldn't expect a world that has has regular trade 
for the last 300 or more years to go below. 

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 02:24:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 21 01:24:28 2002
Subject: Drugs (was Re: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast)
In-Reply-To: <20020821051704.29554.23928.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17hQiP-0003Z9-00@smtp6.mindspring.com>

cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng) wrote:

> >Who cares about them?  Crime cannot compete with legitimate business
> >(that's why the Mafia left alcohol distribution and, more recently,
> >Vegas gambling).  If marijuana, cocaine, LSD, methamphetamine, opium
> >&c. were legitimate businesses, those involved in them would be no
> >more objectionable that a liquor distributor is these days.
> 
> "Well, if we get rid of all the laws, then there would be no crime."

W/o the (mostly useless) "war on drugs" large corporations and not 
thugs with guns would be selling drugs in the US, so US crime 
rates would drop significantly.  Also, these companies would pay 
far less for cocaine and heroin than the gangs do now, so the 3rd 
world thugs would get far less money.

> While I, as a Pennsylvanian, would debate whether the end of
> Prohibition has really removed the thuggish, criminal element from the
> sale of alcohol (Anybody who has ever watched the PLCB - AKA the
> Pennsylvania Liquer Control Board - would probably agree that
> thug-idiots are still running things.), the idea that legalizing drugs
> would put the criminal elements currently engaged in the drug trade
> out of business is naive, to put it mildly.  They would simply move to
> a different line of work, as the Mafia did after Prohibition.  

Far less profitable lines of work, cocaine is a vast moneymaker and 
w/o it they would be hard pressed to get similar amounts of money.

> If you want to agree for legalization, then that is your right.  But
> arguing that you should legalize LSD or saying it will put the
> criminals out of business does not help your case. (Why do you WANT to
> legalize LSD?  Sorry, I am not terribly interested in legally giving
> someone the ability to go on an acid trip.).

Why not?  Getting falling-down blackout drunk is perfectly legal, 
and acid is both far safer and more enjoyable than doing that.

Ob Trav:  Are any recreational chemicals illegal in the Imperium as 
a whole?  I'm guessing not, but many worlds would have laws 
against all manner of such chemicals.  Does that mean that your 
average starport bar would serve everything from cocaine colas to 
hallucinogenic tree-yak lymph?

    -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 02:28:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Wed Aug 21 01:28:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Names of Tigresses
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208180340140.16440-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <00d201c2498b$adfce8b0$1001a8c0@sauron>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen
> Unfortunately the only words I can find for 'female cat' is 'she-cat'
> and 'tabby', and neither 'Xxxxx she-cat' nor 'Xxxxx tabby' really
> appeals to me as names (I mean, how does _Wild Tabby_ or _Bob
> Shecat_ do for you? See what I mean?). YMMV.

> (Incidentally, I would have thought that the female of
> 'tomcat' would be'tabby'

Incorrect.

"Tabby" refers to a fur pattern, a "tiger stripe" with an "M" on the
forehead.

Both males and females can be "tabbies".


Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 03:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Wed Aug 21 02:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Announcing Starship Design Contest #11
Message-ID: <3D6356D1.2205224A@ameritech.net>

As is now the custom I hereby declare Starship Design Contest #11 open
on the Starship/Vehicle Design board of JTAS (the online Journal of the
Travellers Aid Society. http://jtas.sjgames.com/ ) This version of the
amusement is centered on a ship to appeal to Vargr rock stars. All are
encouraged to submit entries for this most coveted of gearhead awards
(after the Great TML Unboring Ship Rodeo of course.)

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 03:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Wed Aug 21 02:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT- I need info on Austrailian SF writers association.
In-Reply-To: <3D5ED6C1.21154.1067D9A@localhost>
Message-ID: <00de01c24992$0563e1c0$1001a8c0@sauron>

timothyreynolds@earthlink.net wrote :

> I have a friend in Australia who is a pretty good armature
> writer,

She writes SF about armatures ?
That's a pretty narrow genre.

> and I am  looking for information on the Australian science fiction
and
> or fantasy organization for writers so I can pass it on to her. I do
not
> know if I have the right title of the association but someone knows
what I am
> talking about.  If someone can send me contact info I would be happy.
Email
> would be good and a web site would be great.

I don't think there is one as such.

But you could try contacting the people at the Australian Science
Fiction Foundation :
http://home.vicnet.net.au/~asff/

I know a few Australian SF writers, so I know that, for instance,
Stephen Dedman (known to GURPS authors for his work on GURPS Martial
Arts stuff) and his partner are organizing another SF erotica
publication like "Consensual", the last one they did , so if your friend
is that way inclined I can give you contact details for them.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 03:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Wed Aug 21 02:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020819175555.00a3cec0@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <00df01c24992$4b960150$1001a8c0@sauron>

Hal wrote :
> Wasn't there a Zhodane supplement out there at one point in
> Traveller's existence?

Yes, there is "Adventure 6 - Adventure on Zhodane" in the LBB format and
there is also the Zhodhani Alien Supplement in US Letter format.

Frankie




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 03:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Wed Aug 21 02:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economics
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNGEJOEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFKEBLDGAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

A very interesting point (both RL and Trav).  I personally would not want to
see the Traveller universe in this way, but possibly this could be extended
to the core sectors of teh Imperium.

It may be a case that travelling across the central sectors is like
travelling through a very similiar cultural setting just like someone from 1
western developed nation travelling through others, minor differences
outweighed by the familiar.  However the Frontier areas or those nearer the
borders of the Imperium may be significantly different.  Travelling through
the Spinward Marches with it's widely differring cultures may be a result of
the intermixing of alien cultures on it's borders and the (relatively)
shorter time Imperial culture has had to permeat the planets.  The slow TL
advance of the TU is well documented but it's slow cultural (and political)
change is not so well recognised.

We are well accustomed to a rapid change of both technology and culture
(just look at clothes fashion) but if we accept the SLOOOOOWWWWWW TL
advances in Traveller isn't it possible that the Cultural pace of change is
equally slow.  Perhaps the majority of the Deneb colonists were the ones fed
up with Imperial culture - the outcasts and minorities in other words.  Each
planet settled would tend to develop it's own culture.  Meanwhile the
central sectord of the Imperium would continue to melt into a generic
imperial culture.

Just some thoughts on a warm but boring day of work waiting for my bike to
be repaired, please fire at will. :)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Terry Carlino
> Sent: 21 August 2002 00:29
   - - - Big snip of very interesting points - - - - -
> I can give an almost real world example of this. In 1979 I traveled to
> Europe for the first time. I noticed that when I was in France people
> dressed a certain way. Stores and restaurants looked a certain way. When I
> went to Italy they looked different. When I visited Spain different still.
> They could be said to have different CT's (Cultural Levels.)
>
> In 1997 I visited Europe again. As I sat dreaming in a Burger King I
> observed the light of the giant neon SONY sign reflect off of the Kentucky
> Fried Chicken across the street. Volvos, Fords, Toyotas, and VW's crowded
> the roads. Teenagers, in a Anime logo t-shirts and Hard Rock Caf
> ball caps
> zipped by listening to MP3 players made by Phillips Electronics
> in China. By
> looking out the window I could not determine which country I was
> in. Heck I
> could have been southern California or Atlanta. The CT's of the countries
> had blurred so as to make one indistinguishable from another.

Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.
How can a species consider itself advanced if it's willing to travel between
the stars and not bring any water balloons? - www.purrsia.com/Freefall ,
10th Apr 2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 05:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 21 04:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Damned Silly Questions
Message-ID: <15b04f615acf53.15acf5315b04f6@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Beth <shylady69@runbox.com>
Date: Monday, August 19, 2002 6:56 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Damned Silly Questions


<<snips discussion of possible names for _Tigress_-class battleships>>

> Can you imagine the Hello Kitty?  Required ship's uniform includes 
> bow clips for each ear. :)

http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~jhoffa/fragments/hello.html

ObTrav:  Ummm, powered armor...?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 06:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joseph Elric Smith Mormon minion of Arioch)
Date: Wed Aug 21 05:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Damned Silly Questions
References: <15b04f615acf53.15acf5315b04f6@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <001901c2490a$6ffb0e60$6f7ba8c0@kenneith93j41k>

LOL I had that as my background for the longest time a few years back, when
I was putting together my 40k stuff.
ken

Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comics
Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you
http://www.geocities.com/J_Elric_Smith/Index.html
----- Original Message -----
From: <john.groth@us.army.mil>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 7:53 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] Damned Silly Questions


>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Beth <shylady69@runbox.com>
> Date: Monday, August 19, 2002 6:56 pm
> Subject: Re: [TML] Damned Silly Questions
>
>
> <<snips discussion of possible names for _Tigress_-class battleships>>
>
> > Can you imagine the Hello Kitty?  Required ship's uniform includes
> > bow clips for each ear. :)
>
> http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~jhoffa/fragments/hello.html
>
> ObTrav:  Ummm, powered armor...?
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 06:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Angus McDonald)
Date: Wed Aug 21 05:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
Message-ID: <OF5624E906.99364391-ONCA256C1C.002266C2@dnsalias.com>

Sheesh! I can't believe the stuff that the US military just whacks onto 
the web ... I mean you've got troop numbers/types and a whole lot of other 
info just sitting out there. I hope for their sake this is all part of a 
misinformation/decoy plan.

>>>
These number are from:

http://habitability.net/bbdata/9640a1.pdf

Which is the Navy habitability instruction.
<<<

---  from  ---
Angus McDonald
www.falkayn.com

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 06:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Wed Aug 21 05:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E55@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <3D643043.21637.61E454@localhost>

On 20 Aug 2002, at 12:29, Hurrel, Brian wrote:

> "Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance" wrote: 

> >I'm still convinced that Abba constituted some form of violation of the
> >Geneva conventions.

> The Swedish government maintains that this was merely in retaliation for
> Leif Garrett.

Retailation in kind is specifically prohibited


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 07:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Wed Aug 21 06:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Technology Marches On - Traveller-like APCs Arrive?
References: <20020820102502.5372.64318.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <008601c2491a$80e40640$935d8690@computer>

> From: John-Martin
> Did anyone else look at the whole medium Brigade concept
> and think if you squint those sure look like Army issue
> Marines up to and including ripping off their LAV's

I must confess that I had wondered why they weren't planning on using the
same kind of LAVs as the Marines.

OBTRAV: Selecting military equipment in the TU is always "interesting".

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 07:54:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Wed Aug 21 06:54:41 2002
Subject: [TML] The cloak
References: <20020819150303.8834.94752.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <008501c2491a$80455540$935d8690@computer>

> From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
>      Playing a little TML Catch-Up here...

Me too...

>      Naturally, seeing something shaped like a Whipsnade stuffed into a
> man-sized, lycra-like, sausage casing can be extremely unappealing, thus
> the use of cloaks while off ship.

<shudder>

This has reminded me of something I saw yesterday.

Traditionally in Australia, the visible "bum crack" has been associated with
male builders' labourers and the like. Now, thanks to the benefits of
hipster jeans, it has become an equal opportunity horror...

This feeds into the "rugged individualists settling other worlds" thread we
had a couple of days back. What if there was not particular need for
physical fitness amongst colonists? That is, what if they could rely on
machinery, robots and remotely piloted vehicles to do the dangerous stuff?

What if your colonists were middle-aged, and frequently at least a little
overweight? What if the rugged and heroic colonists wearing their
"skintight" spacesuits were a bunch of bargear*es?

Come to think of it - how many Traveller PCs suffer from middle aged spread,
or, if male, receding hairlines, and all the other stuff that makes life at
forty+ interesting?

: )

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 08:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed Aug 21 07:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E5E@USCHM203>

>Bruce Johnson wrote:

>Leonard Erickson wrote:

>>Not just that, but evaluate and choose the person who will be killed.  You

>>have to be able to say "I will kill that Colonel first, then the
radioman." 
>>and do it.
> 
> 
> I assume that's because you *have* to get the Colonel, but getting the
> radionan is "merely" very important.
> 

>Nope, it's because if you pop the Colonel, the radio man will duck, call 
>in an arty strike on your likely position and kill you.

This reminds me of one of the oddest and amusing artillery stories I ever
heard.
I met an older man in a bar on Hilton Head Island, South Carolina, about 6
years ago. He was leafing through an Artillery magazine (yes, there are
actually "Trade" magazines for various military branches).
I struck up a conversation with him, and he was a very nice old gentleman.
He had also been a forward observer in the Canadian Army during WWII.
One time, in Italy, he was positioned in a house along a hillside
overlooking a valley. Scanning the opposite slope with his binoculars, he
spotted a German in a church tower. The German was apparrantly a forward
observer as well, for he was scanning with his binoculars.
They spotted each other at about the same time, and began calling in
spotting rounds on each other, then firing for effect.
As you might have guessed, my Canadian friend managed to adjust his rounds
first.

He also told me something I found impressive. He said they could go from
having their guns hitched up behind trucks, unload them, set them up, and be
firing for effect in a matter of minutes, something like 5 or less. I had no
idea this could be done so quickly during WWII.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 08:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed Aug 21 07:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E5F@USCHM203>

>Bruce Johnson wrote:

>So that's what he replaced the Grumman Goose with. (In which he learned 
>the hard way, how to bail out of a sinking seaplane...'follow the 
>bubbles, follow the bubbles'...the Goose is now on the bottom of Long 
>Island Sound, following an unfortunate encounter with a wave at just the 
>wrong point in landing.)

>A PBY is a heckuva step up. I looked on the web once and found a Goose for
sale for a mere $750K.

Might have to check the facts. I thought the pictures I saw were recent, and
was pretty sure it was a PBY. I might have seen a story on the Grumman Goose
and thought it was a PBY(I don't know if the two are similar looking). I
didn't know it sank.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 08:40:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Wed Aug 21 07:40:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Names of Tigresses
In-Reply-To: <20020821120203.7349.49535.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208211634240.27839-100000@ask.diku.dk>

"Frankie" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> writes:
>Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen
>
>>(Incidentally, I would have thought that the female of
>>'tomcat' would be'tabby'
>
>Incorrect.
>
>"Tabby" refers to a fur pattern, a "tiger stripe" with an "M" on the
>forehead.
>
>Both males and females can be "tabbies".

That wasn't what the dictionary I consulted told me. However, upon
checking Merriam-Webster Online I find that we're both right:

2 [2tabby] a : a domestic cat with a striped and mottled coat b : a
domestic cat; especially : a female cat.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 08:42:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Wed Aug 21 07:42:56 2002
Subject: Vulcan bits - was RE: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly   of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F16A8@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <20020821143850.18063.qmail@web11803.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "DeGraff, Jesse" <Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com> wrote:
> That's a link to a Yahoo! mail account as far as I
the whole string of letters was the link, not just the
blue part. That was what I copied and pasted from my
web address feild anyway. It had some pictures of the Vulcan.

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 08:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Aug 21 07:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020821015438.31342fea6cbc46c6917d2b4a00ec6cab.in@keywest.kennett.net>
References: <20020821015438.31342fea6cbc46c6917d2b4a00ec6cab.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <m3ptwcw9yi.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng) writes:
>
> If you think people have a tough time trying to avoid the sea of
> narcotics surrounding them, wait until legalization when the sea
> becomes and ocean.

We're all surrounded by a sea of alcohol--and yet teetotallers manage
to do just fine.

> With all the information about LSD, I am stunned to hear something
> so amazingly naive.  The drug serves no useful purpose (Which annoys
> the efficiency part in me.) and the dangers are well known.

Alcohol serves no useful purpose.  It's a poison.  Many people a year
die from it.  But it's their own damn fault.

> But you apparently can not make a judgement call on a person trying
> to take the drug.

No--I _won't_ make that call.  There's a difference.

> Better hope nobody on a crack high or acid trip is driving a car
> near you.

Better hope no-one who is drunk or tobacco-woozy is driving a car near
you...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Youth is a blunder, manhood a struggle, old age a regret.
                                     --Benjamin Disraeli

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 08:49:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed Aug 21 07:49:04 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E60@USCHM203>

>"Glenn M. Goffin" wrote:

>(Kian Joke)

Okay, that was my first real grin of the day :)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 08:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Aug 21 07:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The cloak
In-Reply-To: <008501c2491a$80455540$935d8690@computer>
References: <20020819150303.8834.94752.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <008501c2491a$80455540$935d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <m3lm70w9qo.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com> writes:
> 
> Come to think of it - how many Traveller PCs suffer from middle aged
> spread, or, if male, receding hairlines, and all the other stuff
> that makes life at forty+ interesting?

I wish I'd a hairline to recede at forty.  I'm twenty-four, and by the
time forty comes around I figure I'll bear a striking resemblance to a
cue ball.  Sigh.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
If you want to travel around the world and be invited to speak at a lot
of different places, just write a Unix operating system.
                                       --Linus Torvalds

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 09:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 21 08:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Damned Silly Questions
Message-ID: <29.2c0d9407.2a950670@cs.com>

John Groth writes: 
> >Can you imagine the Hello Kitty?  Required ship's uniform includes 
> >bow clips for each ear. :)
> 
> http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~jhoffa/fragments/hello.html
> 
> ObTrav:  Ummm, powered armor...?
> 
That is just incredibly wrong on so many levels...(sounds of harddrive saving 
picture) :)

Doug Grimes


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 09:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 21 08:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] drugs
Message-ID: <28.2b75d1f3.2a95089d@aol.com>

 >> But you apparently can not make a judgement call on a person trying
 >> to take the drug.
 >
 >I can make such a judgement call -- my judgement is that it is their
 >right to do so, provided that they do not enganger others.  If they do
 >endanger others by doing so, there are laws not specific to drugs that
 >suffice.

Ah.  This goes to the whole reason drugs are illegal.  Freedom requires 
responsibility, but drugs undermine precisely that.  It is not possible to 
use (serious) drugs responsibly.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 09:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Wed Aug 21 08:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The cloak
Message-ID: <memo.25670@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <008501c2491a$80455540$935d8690@computer>
> Come to think of it - how many Traveller PCs suffer from middle aged 
> spread,
> or, if male, receding hairlines, and all the other stuff that makes 
> life at
> forty+ interesting?

That Traveller engineer of mine - the one who goes for strolls in Jump - 
is in his late 40s and is going bald, although as he has a 'buzz cut' it 
is perhaps not that noticeable.

I also have a very obese Cyberpunk netrunner... he eats too much junk food 
while netrunning. (It is perhaps ironic that I'm eating a bag of potato 
chips while typing this!)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 09:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Aug 21 08:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] drugs
In-Reply-To: <28.2b75d1f3.2a95089d@aol.com>
References: <28.2b75d1f3.2a95089d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m38z30w7jc.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
> 
> Ah.  This goes to the whole reason drugs are illegal.  Freedom
> requires responsibility, but drugs undermine precisely that.  It is
> not possible to use (serious) drugs responsibly.

That would imply that, if I were intoxicated, I cannot be held
responsible.  Which is nonsense.  The decision to take a drug provides
all the justification needed to punish for actions taken under its
influence.

I should note that the only drugs I've taken have been caffeine,
nicotine, alcohol and various medicines.  I've never smoked a joint,
never tripped on acid, never ingested cocaine.  Doesn't mean I cannot
support others doing so.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
> Then again, this is still an Internet where the appropriately named
> Domino server
It's not appropriately named; it should be called Lotus House of Cards.
                              --Steve Sobol, in response to Alan Brown

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 09:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Wed Aug 21 08:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The cloak
In-Reply-To: <m3lm70w9qo.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFMEBODGAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

Hah youngster (at least hair loss wise :) )

I started going noticeably bald at 16, by the time I was 18 my hairline was
half way across the crown of my head, and by 20 I had my current
stereotypical monk hairline :) . On the other hand it is character building,
you either develop a very thick skin and sense of humour or you end up in
counselling - I went for No 1.  It also helps you develop an interest in
older women early ;) .  I actually feel sorry for my father who started
going bald when he was 14 and served 4 years in the army with the nickname
of 'old man'.  Didn't seem to do him any harm, and he got promoted a lot
faster :)

ObTrav : Errmm, many of my characters have been bald or otherwise had some
sort of distinctive appearance.  I would imagine that with the number of
races (human and otherwise), variety of backgrounds and planetary conditions
that such minor characteristics as baldness etc. are pretty much invisible.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Robert Uhl
> <ruhl@4dv.net>
> Sent: 21 August 2002 15:46
> I wish I'd a hairline to recede at forty.  I'm twenty-four, and by the
> time forty comes around I figure I'll bear a striking resemblance to a
> cue ball.  Sigh.

Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.
I was about to say that there are times when you should ignore rules and
social niceties, but that might not be a message that I want a large,
non-human carnivore to pick up. - www.purrsia.com/Freefall , 12th June 2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 10:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Wed Aug 21 09:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <20020821115558.c2193f72eaf84843badde60a32bb2c13.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>At 10:34 AM 8/19/2002, Cheng Tseng wrote:
>>also the NEW JERSEY, who has her Phalanx mounts unlike her sisters
>
>The Missouri still has her Phalanx, Harpoon, and Tomahawk mounts, as well 
>as her reconnaissance drone.  The fire control stations for the Tomahawk 
>and drone are still in the CEC, as are the air-search and surface-search 
>radars, but the Phalanx stations have been removed.

WISCONSIN does not have the Phalanx mounts anymore (All you see is a four
flat platforms where they use to go.), and IIRC, the ABLs have been removed
as well from her.

>>Technically, the NORTH CAROLINA, the MASSACHUSETTS, the ALABAMA, and IOWAs
>>count too...
>
>Most references tend to classify US battleships into three major groups:
>Pre-Dreadnoughts, Dreadnoughts, and Fast Battleships.

Yes, I know.  But the fast battleships were of the dreadnought variety.  I
seen people argue the IOWAs were closer to battlecruisers.  But they are
still dreadnoughts.

>18 years.  One ship of this era, the USS Texas (BB-35, 1914) is preserved, 
>and is (to my knowledge) the only ship remaining that served in both WWI 
>and WWII.

Unless you count the time when the AURORA was used as a AA platform during
the siege of Leningrad.

>The Fast Battleships begin with BB-55 (the USS North Carolina, 1940), at 
>35,000 tons and capable of 28 knots.  This was a 7-knot improvement, 
>greater than the 6-knot increase for the entire 1983-1923 period, and 
>enabled the battleships to keep up with the carrier battle groups.  The 
>Fast Battleships continued through the USS Wisconsin (BB-64, 1944) at 
>45,000 tons and 33 knots.  All were armed with 9 16" guns, and turbine 
>drive replaced the turbo-electric propulsion.  Two more Iowa-class ships 
>(BB-65 and 66) were cancelled, as was BB-65 through BB-71, a class of 
>60,000 ton, 12-gun responses to the Yamato and Musashi.  Almost all of the 
>Fast Battleships still exist; only USS Washington (BB-56) and BB-58 (USS 
>Indiana) were scrapped.

SOUTH DAKOTA.

I always thought it was a pity they did not save the WASHINGTON.

C.T.


"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 10:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Wed Aug 21 09:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <20020821120313.da89a685d65a4948876eec7e96227417.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>Cheng Tseng wrote:
>> If you think people have a tough time trying to avoid the sea of
>> narcotics surrounding them,
>
>Why would I think that?

Why would you not?

>> But you apparently can not make a judgement call on a person trying
>> to take the drug.
>
>I can make such a judgement call -- my judgement is that it is their
>right to do so, provided that they do not enganger others.  If they do
>endanger others by doing so, there are laws not specific to drugs that
>suffice.

Point for you.  But the original comment was about NOT making any judgement
calls at all.

>> Better hope nobody on a crack high or acid trip is driving a car
>> near you.
>
>What about jailing all blind people?  You don't want one of them
>driving a car near you either.

How many blind people do you know drive a car?  Pilot an airplane?  Do open
heart surgery?  (Not "legally blind" but really blind.).

The number I have is a non-negative number less the one.

>And you are in favour of bringing back Prohibition of alcohol I take
>it, using the same specious argument?

Using that argument, I should be against firearm ownership, smoking, eating
fatty foods, etc.

Not that I am.

C.T.


"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 10:22:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed Aug 21 09:22:04 2002
Subject: [TML] drugs
In-Reply-To: <m38z30w7jc.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <28.2b75d1f3.2a95089d@aol.com>
 <m38z30w7jc.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020821174539.16a5f0b1.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Wed, 21 Aug 2002 09:33:43 -0600
ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>) wrote:

> That would imply that, if I were intoxicated, I cannot be held
> responsible.  Which is nonsense.  The decision to take a drug provides
> all the justification needed to punish for actions taken under its
> influence.

True, but if someone takes drugs, (s)he increases his/her probability of
commiting a crime. That's why it is not allowed.

By your reasoning, one should basically be allowed to drive a car at
high speeds through a public park at noon. As long as no one actually
gets hurt, it's OK.

It doesn't work that way.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 10:25:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug 21 09:25:09 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
In-Reply-To: <20020821001136.5f02e077.jenry023@student.liu.se>
References: <3D62B9E2.7080504@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 <20020819222844.14677.qmail@web20414.mail.yahoo.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020820101133.009e7a50@mindspring.com>
 <3D62B9E2.7080504@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020821091433.009e93a0@mindspring.com>

At 12:11 AM 8/21/02 +0200, you wrote:
>What if Traveller was played like hockey?

Craig once body checked me during a game...


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"I'm just trying to evict them. Frogs never pay."
                             - Rose Platt



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 10:27:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug 21 09:27:56 2002
Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
In-Reply-To: <20020821022438.C53E827940@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020820180524.009e3710@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020821090432.009ec4e0@mindspring.com>

At 09:24 PM 8/20/02 -0500, you wrote:
>On 08/20/02 at 06:07 PM,  Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>said:
>
> >Actually, Leonard is right.  If the mission is to paralyze the 757th
> >Mortorized Rifle Regiment for a day so the Americans can form for a
> >counter-attack, killing the Colonel is far more important.  Even if
> >this  reduces your chances of making it out alive.
>
>Wouldn't the *radio* be a better target than the radioman or the
>Colonel? No radio, no commands into the Colonel or out from the
>Colonel. Of course, there *could* be multiple radios...<g>

Well, let's say that I get the radioman first.  The Colonel has a moment 
while I re-sight to drop to cover, or maybe there's a bad guy I didn't 
notice who has a clear line of sight to me who gets a shot off... any of a 
thousand bad things can happen.  So you finish the mission first, then take 
care of secondary targets.  In this case, that would be the radioman, then 
any other senior officers you can see.  After five or six shots, you get 
the hell out of Dodge.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 10:31:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug 21 09:31:18 2002
Subject: [TML] spreading tech knowledge
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1029891558.8606.ajackson@ping>
References: <10.23af07c9.2a9425c1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020821091708.009df780@mindspring.com>

At 05:59 PM 8/20/02 -0700, you wrote:

>Well, truth is, you can get an awful lot of TL 7 goods in africa, if you want
>to; by some of the definitions given, Africa is about TL 6.  Certainly, their
>weapons tend to be TL 6.

But almost all of the TL 6-7 material is imported.  It is much easier to 
buy the finished product than go to the trouble of building the 
infrastructure to build your own AK clone.

The RSA is an exception.  The do build their own technological items.

Africa is a living example of the idea that TL represents the local 
sustainable technology.  Places like the Ivory Coast would loose much of 
their technology if the rest of the world vanished.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 10:34:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug 21 09:34:19 2002
Subject: [TML] General landgrab question
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMGELJECAA.tml@jtas.org>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020820230453.026b9008@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020821091022.009e9ec0@mindspring.com>

At 11:54 PM 8/20/02 -0400, you wrote:
>The original daffy-nition for the Landgrab was that it be in the Spinward
>Marches, but I have posted grabs outside. But then, I'm a heretic. If you
>don't mind burning at the stake with me, go for it ;)

Did I say SM in the original message?  I can't remember..

But anyway, as long as it is a nice, detailed planet in a published sector, 
I don't see why not.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 10:37:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug 21 09:37:20 2002
Subject: [TML] The cloak
In-Reply-To: <008501c2491a$80455540$935d8690@computer>
References: <20020819150303.8834.94752.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020821092141.009df3b0@mindspring.com>

At 11:51 PM 8/21/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Come to think of it - how many Traveller PCs suffer from middle aged spread,
>or, if male, receding hairlines, and all the other stuff that makes life at
>forty+ interesting?

The lawyer I played in a TNE game was suffering from male pattern 
baldness.  I decided he wasn't vain enough to have it fixed, feeling that 
it was natural for him to lose his hair.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 10:41:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Aug 21 09:41:04 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020821120313.da89a685d65a4948876eec7e96227417.in@keywest.kennett.net>
References: <20020821120313.da89a685d65a4948876eec7e96227417.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <m3u1louqlj.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng) writes:
> 
> > And you are in favour of bringing back Prohibition of alcohol I
> > take it, using the same specious argument?
> 
> Using that argument, I should be against firearm ownership, smoking,
> eating fatty foods, etc.

Were you logically consistent, you would be.  Once you make the
decision to limit liberty in one area, it is that much easier to make
it elsewhere.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
One could spend *all day* customising the title bar.  Believe me.  I speak
from experience.                                              --Matt Welsh

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 10:43:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Wed Aug 21 09:43:51 2002
Subject: Drugs (was Re: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast)
Message-ID: <20020821121711.ca49d1a544a04b508323ad46587a69cb.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>> "Well, if we get rid of all the laws, then there would be no crime."
>
>W/o the (mostly useless) "war on drugs" large corporations and not 
>thugs with guns would be selling drugs in the US, so US crime 
>rates would drop significantly.  Also, these companies would pay 

Drop, yes.  Drop significantly...only in handling the drugs.  I doubt the
associated crimes will drop significantly...

>far less for cocaine and heroin than the gangs do now, so the 3rd 
>world thugs would get far less money.

Yeah, so more thugs in the Third World start selling cocaine and heroin.

>Far less profitable lines of work, cocaine is a vast moneymaker and 
>w/o it they would be hard pressed to get similar amounts of money.

For similar amounts of effort or intelligence perhaps.  But they will always
find something else.

>> If you want to agree for legalization, then that is your right.  But
>> arguing that you should legalize LSD or saying it will put the
>> criminals out of business does not help your case. (Why do you WANT to
>> legalize LSD?  Sorry, I am not terribly interested in legally giving
>> someone the ability to go on an acid trip.).
>
>Why not?  Getting falling-down blackout drunk is perfectly legal, 
>and acid is both far safer and more enjoyable than doing that.

Unless you are an Timothy Leary follower, you can not believe that.

C.T.


"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 10:47:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug 21 09:47:15 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <m3ptwcw9yi.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <20020821015438.31342fea6cbc46c6917d2b4a00ec6cab.in@keywest.kennett.net>
 <20020821015438.31342fea6cbc46c6917d2b4a00ec6cab.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020821092537.009ef300@mindspring.com>

>cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng) writes:
>
> > With all the information about LSD, I am stunned to hear something
> > so amazingly naive.  The drug serves no useful purpose (Which annoys
> > the efficiency part in me.) and the dangers are well known.

And what useful purpose does Traveller serve?

I used to do acid.  It was fun, and sometimes really amazing.  When I 
decided to quit drugs, I just stopped.  No problems with addiction.  I wish 
my divorce from alcohol had been this easy.

Now, which one is legal?

ObTrav: Recreational chemicals are going to being treated differently on 
different worlds.  What is legal on one world will be a religious sacrement 
on another and bring the death penalty on a third.  Dealing with the 
complications arising from this can fuel many adventures.  Also, do the 
Zhodani have a drug problem?  How about the Vargr?  Do the K'kree chew 
certain plants to get stoned?


-- 

Douglas E. Berry         gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
    http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"How am I supposed to hallucinate with all these
swirling colors in the way?"   - Lisa Simpson



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 10:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Aug 21 09:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] spreading tech knowledge
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020821091708.009df780@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B98910DE.6A7E8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/21/02 9:20 AM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:

>=20
> Africa is a living example of the idea that TL represents the local
> sustainable technology.  Places like the Ivory Coast would loose much of
> their technology if the rest of the world vanished.
>=20
However, if this were to happen, most of the continent probably wouldn't
notice.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 10:53:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Aug 21 09:53:42 2002
Subject: [TML] The cloak
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020821092141.009df3b0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B9891254.6A7E9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/21/02 9:22 AM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:

> At 11:51 PM 8/21/02 +1000, you wrote:
>> Come to think of it - how many Traveller PCs suffer from middle aged spr=
ead,
>> or, if male, receding hairlines, and all the other stuff that makes life=
 at
>> forty+ interesting?
>=20
> The lawyer I played in a TNE game was suffering from male pattern
> baldness.  I decided he wasn't vain enough to have it fixed, feeling that
> it was natural for him to lose his hair.

Don't you watch those commercials?  "Losing my hair was the most traumatic
experience in my life."  Obviously, in the Traveller universe, people get
out more.  I mean, it's a dangerous place where merchants routinely receive
brawling and gun combat skills as part of their career. In a place where
your chance of getting mugged or shot is fairly high, I guess losing your
hair doesn't see like such a big deal.

Of course, at higher tech levels, fixing something like baldness is probabl=
y
rather trivial, so retaining a bald head would be more a personal
idiosyncrasy that anything else, akin to shaving one's head or dying one's
hair.  But then so might 'pudginess'.

In a universe where the perfect body is easily obtained, what will people d=
o
to stand out in a crowd?

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 10:57:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Wed Aug 21 09:57:55 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <20020821123936.a3dbf7ac36e246cdaa5d867a03de9607.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng) writes:
>>
>> If you think people have a tough time trying to avoid the sea of
>> narcotics surrounding them, wait until legalization when the sea
>> becomes and ocean.
>
>We're all surrounded by a sea of alcohol--and yet teetotallers manage
>to do just fine.

It is hard enough to do so, and the only thing that makes it easier is that
America has a tradition of doing so.

>> With all the information about LSD, I am stunned to hear something
>> so amazingly naive.  The drug serves no useful purpose (Which annoys
>> the efficiency part in me.) and the dangers are well known.
>
>Alcohol serves no useful purpose.  It's a poison.  Many people a year
>die from it.  But it's their own damn fault.

So do firearms.  Private ownership serves no good purpose except endanger
people.  It is a dangerous tool that many people die from.  It is their
fault, and if we want to save lives, we should grab guns.

(Strictly speaking, small amounts of alcohol in the form of wine can be
useful for maintain health, according to some studies.  Nobody has argued
LSD does that.)

>> But you apparently can not make a judgement call on a person trying
>> to take the drug.
>
>No--I _won't_ make that call.  There's a difference.

You do not want to be bother to make the call.  Ah, I see now.

>> Better hope nobody on a crack high or acid trip is driving a car
>> near you.
>
>Better hope no-one who is drunk or tobacco-woozy is driving a car near
>you...

Being drunk and driving is illegal.  I have no yet seen something causing a
car accident from being hooked on nicotine (And I have heard of some really
strange accidents and motor vehicle violations.)

How much regulation would you accept for the legalization of drugs?

C.T.


"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 11:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Aug 21 10:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] spreading tech knowledge
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020821091708.009df780@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029949575.3990.ajackson@ping>

Douglas Berry writes:
> 
> But almost all of the TL 6-7 material is imported.  It is much easier to 
> buy the finished product than go to the trouble of building the 
> infrastructure to build your own AK clone.

Sure, but for the practical use of TL (what can PCs expect to find on the
world), the issue of whether the tech is imported or local really doesn't
matter.  If you're going to require a local production standard, you wind up
with the problem of 'low-pop worlds cannot have TLs higher than 5'.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 11:10:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Aug 21 10:10:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Crematory Diamonds
Message-ID: <m3ofbwuom1.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

I saw on my pager that a company named Life Gem offers a service
wherein one's cremated ashes are turned into a synthetic diamond.
Although I personally dislike cremation, I figure that it make make a
good bit of local flavour.

Say, the Duke of Wossname's coronet is studded with the previous
dukes.

Or a mob boss has his enemies turned into jewelry.

Or...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I wish everyone were peaceful.  Then I could take over the planet with a
butter knife.                                                  --Dogbert

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 11:13:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Aug 21 10:13:04 2002
Subject: [TML] drugs
In-Reply-To: <20020821174539.16a5f0b1.jenry023@student.liu.se>
References: <28.2b75d1f3.2a95089d@aol.com> <m38z30w7jc.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
 <20020821174539.16a5f0b1.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <m3k7mkuogt.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se> writes:
> 
> True, but if someone takes drugs, (s)he increases his/her
> probability of committing a crime.  That's why it is not allowed.

There are a lot of things which increase the probability of committing
crimes.  We don't outlaw alcohol, love, hate, friendship or
employment: why outlaw dope?

> By your reasoning, one should basically be allowed to drive a car at
> high speeds through a public park at noon.  As long as no one
> actually gets hurt, it's OK.

As long as no one is inconvenienced, I'd agree.

> It doesn't work that way.

Maybe it should.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
One doesn't expect governments to obey the law because of some
higher moral development.  One expects them to obey the law because
they know that if they don't, those who aren't shot will be hanged.
                                                 --Michael Shirley

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 11:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Colin)
Date: Wed Aug 21 10:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Crematory Diamonds
In-Reply-To: <m3ofbwuom1.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMEEMEECAA.tml@jtas.org>

Can we cast swine into pearls?

What kind of gem would a penguin become?

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com

I saw on my pager that a company named Life Gem offers a service
wherein one's cremated ashes are turned into a synthetic diamond.
Although I personally dislike cremation, I figure that it make make a
good bit of local flavour.

Say, the Duke of Wossname's coronet is studded with the previous
dukes.

Or a mob boss has his enemies turned into jewelry.

Or...



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 11:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Aug 21 10:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020821123936.a3dbf7ac36e246cdaa5d867a03de9607.in@keywest.kennett.net>
References: <20020821123936.a3dbf7ac36e246cdaa5d867a03de9607.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <m3fzx8unyd.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng) writes:
> 
> So do firearms.  Private ownership serves no good purpose except
> endanger people.  It is a dangerous tool that many people die from.
> It is their fault, and if we want to save lives, we should grab
> guns.

Which is why prohibitionists support that sort of thing.  I support
letting people screw themselves over as they choose.  If they screw
someone else over, then go after 'em--not before.

> >> But you apparently can not make a judgement call on a person trying
> >> to take the drug.
> >
> >No--I _won't_ make that call.  There's a difference.
> 
> You do not want to be bother to make the call.  Ah, I see now.

No--I _will not_.  I may be pompous, but I am not so pompous as to
presume to tell my fellow man what drugs he can take, whom he can
sleep with, how he can dress, what language he can speak, what weapons
he may carry &c.  I may find his drugs abhominable, his sexual
proclivities disgusting, his clothing reprehensible, his language
brutish and his weapons ill-advised--but I _have no right_ to force
him to conform to my will.

> >> Better hope nobody on a crack high or acid trip is driving a car
> >> near you.
> >
> >Better hope no-one who is drunk or tobacco-woozy is driving a car near
> >you...
> 
> Being drunk and driving is illegal.

Being high and driving is illegal.

> I have no yet seen something causing a car accident from being
> hooked on nicotine (And I have heard of some really strange
> accidents and motor vehicle violations.)

I've no idea if it's happened.  But I can from personal experience
state that when one is young and inexperienced, a good cigar can leave
one _quite_ woozy.

> How much regulation would you accept for the legalization of drugs?

I would treat drugs and alcohol the exact same: purchasable by all (or
at the _very_ least by all adults); intoxication not a defense against
criminal charges; certain acts while intoxicated are illegal (driving,
arms-bearing &c.).

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
RFC 882 put the dot in .com.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 11:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Aug 21 10:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Crematory Diamonds
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMEEMEECAA.tml@jtas.org>
References: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMEEMEECAA.tml@jtas.org>
Message-ID: <m3vg64dswt.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Colin" <tml@jtas.org> writes:
>
> Can we cast swine into pearls?
> 
> What kind of gem would a penguin become?

Well, the reason the ash->diamond process is possible is that ashes
are mostly carbon, and diamonds are pure carbon.  Purify the ashes,
compress them, heat 'em, do whatever and one has a diamond.

Now, other stones are composed of other things (rubies and sapphires
are carborundum--I think that's aluminium oxide or something), so one
would need to figure out if a body has enough of those substances to
produce a gemstone.  Then one would need to determine if they survive
cremation.  Then one would need to propose a method to extract them.

I'm afraid I'm not the fellow to ask.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
There is a strong tendency in the USA to equate democracy with freedom,
and to describe our system of government as a democracy.  I consider
these commonly-believed fallacies two of the clearer failures of the
public school system (or successes, if you want to subscribe to paranoid
conspiracy theories).                                --Brandon Blackmoor

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 11:34:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug 21 10:34:08 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020821123936.a3dbf7ac36e246cdaa5d867a03de9607.in@keywest
 .kennett.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020821102110.009eab40@mindspring.com>

At 12:41 PM 8/21/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Being drunk and driving is illegal.  I have no yet seen something causing a
>car accident from being hooked on nicotine (And I have heard of some really
>strange accidents and motor vehicle violations.)

When I was trying out for the California Highway Patrol in 2 BC (Before 
Cancer), I was reading the CHP magazine while waiting my turn on one of the 
physical events.  One of the accidents reports concerned a fatal accident 
invovling a driver who was chain smoking.  Evidently, according to a 
survivor, he tried to light a cigarette and dropped the car's light into 
his lap.  While trying to put out the small fire that resulted, he drove 
into an overpass support.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 11:36:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug 21 10:36:54 2002
Subject: [TML] The cloak
In-Reply-To: <B9891254.6A7E9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020821092141.009df3b0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020821102804.009f36f0@mindspring.com>

At 09:48 AM 8/21/02 -0700, you wrote:

> > The lawyer I played in a TNE game was suffering from male pattern
> > baldness.  I decided he wasn't vain enough to have it fixed, feeling that
> > it was natural for him to lose his hair.
>
>Don't you watch those commercials?  "Losing my hair was the most traumatic
>experience in my life."  Obviously, in the Traveller universe, people get
>out more.  I mean, it's a dangerous place where merchants routinely receive
>brawling and gun combat skills as part of their career. In a place where
>your chance of getting mugged or shot is fairly high, I guess losing your
>hair doesn't see like such a big deal.

Oh, I scream at those commercials.. "try cancer, you self-centered 
morons!"  It's theraputic.

I have a friend who is a merchant seaman.. he has been in bar fights in the 
Philippines, stood watch with an Uzi while transiting the straits of 
Hormuz, and had all sorts of adventures.  Pity he's the most boring man on 
God's green Earth.  But most of the people here, and in the Imperium, lead 
middle class lives where losing hair will be traumatic.

>Of course, at higher tech levels, fixing something like baldness is probably
>rather trivial, so retaining a bald head would be more a personal
>idiosyncrasy that anything else, akin to shaving one's head or dying one's
>hair.  But then so might 'pudginess'.

Then there's the Jean-Luc Picard factor.  Going bald might be considered 
sexy on some worlds.

>In a universe where the perfect body is easily obtained, what will people do
>to stand out in a crowd?

Body modifications, and then we are getting cyber-punkish.

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Death is an experience best avoided, as it makes
reliable internet access difficult to obtain.
                        - Xaonon, in alt.atheism



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 11:40:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David P. Summers)
Date: Wed Aug 21 10:40:09 2002
Subject: [TML] spreading tech knowledge
In-Reply-To: <4619.64.8.3.28.1029902411.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <10.23af07c9.2a9425c1@aol.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020820225351.02996008@192.168.0.1>
 <4619.64.8.3.28.1029902411.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <p04330100b989803161c4@[143.232.119.186]>

At 12:00 AM -0400 8/21/02, hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>What it really boils down to here is whether or not the people there have
>a high enough standard of living to afford the trappings of High Tech.  In
>other words, if the people are too poor, there is no need to lay in the
>infrastructure that will permit these people to live at the highest level
>of technological luxury.  None the less, those who are educated - are
>educated according to the current standards of technology and knowledge
>capabilities.  Just that fewer are educated than perhaps is desired...


Its also a question, when it comes the examples of "high tech" and 
"low tech" neighbor hoods, that the goods are locally produced, so 
they go to those who can afford to import them.
-- 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 11:49:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Aug 21 10:49:05 2002
Subject: [TML] The cloak
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020821102804.009f36f0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B9892089.6A80B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/21/02 10:32 AM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:

>> Don't you watch those commercials?  "Losing my hair was the most traumat=
ic
>> experience in my life."  Obviously, in the Traveller universe, people ge=
t
>> out more.  I mean, it's a dangerous place where merchants routinely rece=
ive
>> brawling and gun combat skills as part of their career. In a place where
>> your chance of getting mugged or shot is fairly high, I guess losing you=
r
>> hair doesn't see like such a big deal.
>=20
> Oh, I scream at those commercials.. "try cancer, you self-centered
> morons!"  It's theraputic.

You are not alone <g>

> Then there's the Jean-Luc Picard factor.  Going bald might be considered
> sexy on some worlds.

Or being hairy might be a sign of low evolutionary development.  Imagine
being worried your NOT going to go bald.  Secretly shaving your head,
worried that stubble might show.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 11:51:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Aug 21 10:51:52 2002
Subject: [TML] re: USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast
Message-ID: <20020821174856.24095.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng)

>With all the information about LSD, I am stunned to hear something
so
>amazingly naive.  The drug serves no useful purpose (Which annoys
the
>efficiency part in me.) and the dangers are well known.  But you 
>apparently can not make a judgement call on a person trying to take
>the drug.
>
>Better hope nobody on a crack high or acid trip is driving a car
>near you.

Your recent attacks on LSD suggest some negative personal experience.
 The drug has almost no impact on society.  It is not addictive. 
Nearly all users are educated people in their late teens and early
twenties.  They are generally knowledgeable of the risks and take
appropriate precautions, like tripping in safe locations, having a
designated babysitter, and not driving or using power tools.  They
generally get jobs, have families, become productive members of the
society, and stop using all illegal drugs.  

Shit does happen; acidheads do get hurt and hurt others.  The
problems associated with LSD are, however, several orders of
magnitude below those associated with alcohol.  

Meditation, prayer, and the making and enjoying of art and literature
serve no useful purposes.  Do they annoy the efficiency part of you,
too?

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 11:57:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Aug 21 10:57:04 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Drugs
Message-ID: <20020821175530.14656.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: sneadj@mindspring.com
>Subject: Drugs (was Re: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of
>the beast)

>Ob Trav:  Are any recreational chemicals illegal in the Imperium as 
>a whole?  I'm guessing not, but many worlds would have laws 
>against all manner of such chemicals.  Does that mean that your 
>average starport bar would serve everything from cocaine colas to 
>hallucinogenic tree-yak lymph?

I'll have a large milk plus, please.

--Glenn


__________________________________________________
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HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 12:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Aug 21 11:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020820180524.009e3710@mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020821090432.009ec4e0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3D63DAC4.3080201@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Douglas Berry wrote:
> At 09:24 PM 8/20/02 -0500, you wrote:

> Well, let's say that I get the radioman first.  The Colonel has a moment 
> while I re-sight to drop to cover, or maybe there's a bad guy I didn't 
> notice who has a clear line of sight to me who gets a shot off... any of 
> a thousand bad things can happen.  So you finish the mission first, then 
> take care of secondary targets.  In this case, that would be the 
> radioman, then any other senior officers you can see.  After five or six 
> shots, you get the hell out of Dodge.

Well that was sort of what I was trying to say.

Just out of curiosity, what did you think of "Enemy at the Gates"?

Watched it the other day...my wife was astounded at the Soviets handing 
out a rifle and a clip to every other guy, then just a clip to the next.

They certainly got the desperation factor down with the Soviets during 
the battle of Stalingrad.

I just didn't remember Kruschev being in charge there...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 12:28:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Wed Aug 21 11:28:06 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <F2159TBbA4Y9Nt16gM40000c7e9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0208211059510.7608-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>

(Still about 300 messages behind, sorry for the belated reply here)

On Mon, 19 Aug 2002, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

(snip cool list of ships to visit)

<green-with-envy>[1]

Here in Ohio, Cleveland has the USS Cod, SS-224,WWII submarine:
  http://www.usscod.org/

and the Perry's Victory and International Peace Memorial on South Bass
Island with a new National Park Service museum dedicated to the end of the
War of 1812, the Battle of Lake Erie, the Treaty of Ghent (establishing
peace with Canada in 1817 and a demilitarized Great Lakes, IIRC), oh and
Oliver Hazard Perry:

  http://www.nps.gov/pevi/

Wish I'd been there for "Carronade Weekend" (demonstrations firing a
32-pounder reproduction carronade).

>      I suppose the biggest draw will be at Hampton Roads, VA.  The museum
> there has been raising portions of USS Monitor this summer.  The shaft and
> screw were recovered a few years ago, along with other relics.  The engine
> and TURRET!!! were recovered this summer.  Once those items are preserved,
> you'll be able to see the dents CSS Virginia's guns put in USS Monitor's
> turret back in 1862.

I did get to see the shaft and screw last summer, at the Mariners' Museum
- a fantastic place.  They were just in tanks out back in the Monitor
conservation area, without any fanfare, visitors or information.  I hope
it's been improved.  The info and models of the CSS Virginia were very
interesting.  And the gallery of ship models is fantastic - toy ship
models given to (an English king from the early 1800s, well prince then I
suppose), log books from the 1600s (IIRC), etc.  Incredibly detailed
models of WWII ships.  I could go on but I'll spare you. :)  Highly
recommended.

   http://www.mariner.org

and their library:

   http://www.mariner.org/library.html

(I could have spent the whole day in the bookstore there!)

   Rob

[1] More mad at myself because I didn't visit them when I lived in
Boston area, though I did get to tour the USS Enterprise when it was in
town in '87 or '88.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 12:31:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Aug 21 11:31:08 2002
Subject: [TML] drugs
References: <28.2b75d1f3.2a95089d@aol.com>	<m38z30w7jc.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> <20020821174539.16a5f0b1.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <3D63DBBB.6000203@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Jens Rydholm wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Aug 2002 09:33:43 -0600
> ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>) wrote:
> 
> 
>>That would imply that, if I were intoxicated, I cannot be held
>>responsible.  Which is nonsense.  The decision to take a drug provides
>>all the justification needed to punish for actions taken under its
>>influence.
> 
> 
> True, but if someone takes drugs, (s)he increases his/her probability of
> commiting a crime. That's why it is not allowed.

Actually, while there is a correlation between drug use and commision of 
crimes, it's not all that strong. Drug users commit crimes to get the 
money to buy drugs, which are at artificially inflated prices, only 
available from criminals in bad neighborhoods.

You really *don't* see people commiting that many burglaries to feed 
their vodka habit...

Drugs are illegal because, well, because people in charge don't like 
them, and there is a stubborn puritanical streak going through western 
civilization that lives in fear that someone, somewhere is having fun.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 12:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Aug 21 11:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] drugs
References: <28.2b75d1f3.2a95089d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D63DD90.8070400@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> Ah.  This goes to the whole reason drugs are illegal.  Freedom requires 
> responsibility, but drugs undermine precisely that.  It is not possible to 
> use (serious) drugs responsibly.

ROFL!!!!!!

That is just soo much drug-war propaganda.

Everything is black and white, with no middle ground, unlike in the 
*real* world, where addiction is a condition, not some 'failing of 
personal responsibility'.

I begin to see the Zhodani bafflement at Imperial society. "All these 
ill people wandering around in pain, and you do *nothing* to aid them?? 
What kind of inhuman monsters are you???"

ANY drug use is a matter of degree.

By your reasoning there is no inbetween between not drinking, and 
falling-down alcoholism.

Between not smoking, and 4-pack-a-day chainsmoking.

I personally know several people that have told me it was harder to quit 
smoking than it was to quit heroin. Harder, even than meth, which is 
saying something.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 12:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Aug 21 11:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lasers and sound
References: <B9885111.6A765%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D63DE72.7050202@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> on 8/20/02 4:03 PM, Bruce Johnson at johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu wrote:

> 
> So even a laser carbine or rifle may be expected to make an audible snap?
> 
> How much energy in a laser before it becomes audible?

Quite possibly, but it really depends on the atmosphere, the laser's 
wavelength, and probably, the cross-sectional energy levels of the beam, 
in watts per square cm.

Calculating it would require a lot more research on my part.

Vehicle carried, and ship's weapons woould almost certainly do that.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 12:44:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff D. Greenly)
Date: Wed Aug 21 11:44:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: drugs
Message-ID: <sd63a5d6.022@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>

As much as I find this particular thread VERY interesting, and inasmuch
as I have been sorely tempted to really flame some folks here for their
shortsightedness but have held my tongue in my head out of respect for
others, could we perhaps find a home for this thread off the TML? 

Jeff

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 12:48:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Aug 21 11:48:04 2002
Subject: [TML] drugs
In-Reply-To: <3D63DBBB.6000203@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029955671.1414.ajackson@ping>

Bruce Johnson writes:

> Actually, while there is a correlation between drug use and commision of 
> crimes, it's not all that strong. Drug users commit crimes to get the 
> money to buy drugs, which are at artificially inflated prices, only 
> available from criminals in bad neighborhoods.

Well, discounting DUI (which isn't limited to alcohol).  Almost all drugs are
bad ideas in combination with heavy machinery (or any of a wide variety of
other situations where common sense, reasoning, or reflexes are useful).  Of
course, alcohol is legal and is about the most common problem drug.

> Drugs are illegal because, well, because people in charge don't like 
> them, and there is a stubborn puritanical streak going through western 
> civilization that lives in fear that someone, somewhere is having fun.

Heh.  Well, there are a number of hard drugs that are extremely addictive and
extremely toxic, so as a matter of health they should be restricted.  OTOH,
there's also a number of drugs that are not notably more dangerous than
alcohol.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 12:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Aug 21 11:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Lasers and sound
In-Reply-To: <3D63DE72.7050202@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029955965.5262.ajackson@ping>

Bruce Johnson writes:
> 
> Quite possibly, but it really depends on the atmosphere, the laser's 
> wavelength, and probably, the cross-sectional energy levels of the beam, 
> in watts per square cm.

Sort of depends on whether the weapon is designed to deal with atmospheric
conditions by tunneling a hole through the atmosphere, or by firing at a
frequency which passes through atmosphere.  The former requires a great deal of
power and a very narrow beam, which in turn probably requires very high
frequency (X-ray lasers, etc), the latter requires a power level low enough to
not turn atmosphere opaque, which means it will probably not penetrate any
significant armor, though you should be able to get power levels capable of
burning through cloth-type armors and flesh.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 12:56:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Aug 21 11:56:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Lasers and sound
In-Reply-To: <3D63DE72.7050202@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <B9892FE1.6A826%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/21/02 11:39 AM, Bruce Johnson at johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu wrote:

>> So even a laser carbine or rifle may be expected to make an audible snap=
?
>>=20
>> How much energy in a laser before it becomes audible?
>=20
> Quite possibly, but it really depends on the atmosphere, the laser's
> wavelength, and probably, the cross-sectional energy levels of the beam,
> in watts per square cm.
>=20
> Calculating it would require a lot more research on my part.
>=20
> Vehicle carried, and ship's weapons woould almost certainly do that.

I was just hoping for a generic answer.  Someone had made the comparison
with lightening and I observed that even relatively modest static
electricity will make an audible 'snap'.  My only exposure to high powered
lasers is YAG lasers used for sheet metal cutting, and they do make noise,
though how much is from the steel itself I couldn't say.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 12:59:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Aug 21 11:59:11 2002
Subject: [TML] re: The cloak
Message-ID: <20020821185541.26837.qmail@web20417.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>

>Don't you watch those commercials?  "Losing my hair was the most 
>traumatic experience in my life."  

"Because I'm not just the president -- I'm also a customer."

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 13:02:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Aug 21 12:02:10 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Crematory Diamonds
Message-ID: <20020821185754.27418.qmail@web20417.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)

>I saw on my pager that a company named Life Gem offers a service
>wherein one's cremated ashes are turned into a synthetic diamond.
>Although I personally dislike cremation, I figure that it make make
a
>good bit of local flavour.
>
>Say, the Duke of Wossname's coronet is studded with the previous
>dukes.
>
>Or a mob boss has his enemies turned into jewelry.
>
>Or...

(Hard drive whirring.)

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 13:06:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 21 12:06:07 2002
Subject: Drugs (was Re: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of
In-Reply-To: <20020821164350.11758.84035.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17hakh-0005n3-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

cxt217@kennett.net (Cheng Tseng) wrote:

> >W/o the (mostly useless) "war on drugs" large corporations and not
> >thugs with guns would be selling drugs in the US, so US crime rates
> >would drop significantly.  Also, these companies would pay 
> 
> Drop, yes.  Drop significantly...only in handling the drugs.  I doubt
> the associated crimes will drop significantly...

It only makes sense that the drug related driveby shootings and 
similar violence would go down, since those people would not be 
selling drugs anymore.  Legal drugs would take cocaine and heroin 
out of the hands of gangs and put them in the hands of large legal 
corporations, just like happened after prohibition.
 
> >far less for cocaine and heroin than the gangs do now, so the 3rd
> >world thugs would get far less money.
> 
> Yeah, so more thugs in the Third World start selling cocaine and
> heroin.

Why?  There is vast incentive to sell them now and there would be 
far less if they were legal.
 
> >Far less profitable lines of work, cocaine is a vast moneymaker and
> >w/o it they would be hard pressed to get similar amounts of money.
> 
> For similar amounts of effort or intelligence perhaps.  But they will
> always find something else.

Perhaps, but that's hardly a reason to be against drug legalization.
 
> >> If you want to agree for legalization, then that is your right. 
> >> But arguing that you should legalize LSD or saying it will put the
> >> criminals out of business does not help your case. (Why do you WANT
> >> to legalize LSD?  Sorry, I am not terribly interested in legally
> >> giving someone the ability to go on an acid trip.).
> >
> >Why not?  Getting falling-down blackout drunk is perfectly legal, and
> >acid is both far safer and more enjoyable than doing that.
> 
> Unless you are an Timothy Leary follower, you can not believe that.

Excuse me, It's hardly your place to tell me what I do or don't 
believe.  I've gotten *really* drunk (once in college and never again) 
and I've tried multiple hits of acid a couple of times (grad school).  I 
enjoyed and recommend the 2nd experience and *not* the first.  
Saying that getting drunk is in some way morally superior, safer, or 
less problematic that smoking pot or doing acid makes no sense.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 13:09:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Wed Aug 21 12:09:04 2002
Subject: [TML] drugs
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1029955671.1414.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020821190723.36426.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> wrote:
> Bruce Johnson writes:
> > Drugs are illegal because, well, because people in
> charge don't like 
> > them, and there is a stubborn puritanical streak
> going through western 
> > civilization that lives in fear that someone,
> somewhere is having fun.
> 
> Heh.  Well, there are a number of hard drugs that
> are extremely addictive and
> extremely toxic, so as a matter of health they
> should be restricted.  OTOH,
> there's also a number of drugs that are not notably
> more dangerous than
> alcohol.

This relates to the problem of setting laws and some
of the basic arguments in political ideology today. 
The trouble is, where do you draw the line?

How far should the legislation go in restricting
destructive items.  Some folks think it is OK if I
want to commit suicide for someone to help me do it. 
Others abhor that idea, but they believe drugs (and
maybe alcohol) should be illegal.  Still others
(thankfully only a few) believe that we should not be
allowed access to anything that will harm us,
including caffine.

A wide variety of beliefs, but we have enough in
common that we still band together as a nation.  Which
brings this thread back to Traveller.  That is...

How does the Impreium survive with such a WIDE range
of members that may not have developed as members of
the Imperium.

I mean, there are probably many societies in the
Imperium that view others much the same way the Zho's
view the Impies.  How do they all "get along" to make
the sandbox a happy place?

Or maybe they don't.  Does the Baron of the Planet
Restrictia declare a freedom fighting war on the the
government of Fredonia in the name of the poor
inhabitants.  After all, says the good Baron, the
Baron of Fredonia is inhumane for allowing his
citizens access to caffine!!!  Or maybe vice versa
because the Baron of Restrictia is not allowing
personal freedoms to his citizens.

How can we all just get along?

Paul


__________________________________________________
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HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 13:11:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Aug 21 12:11:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
In-Reply-To: <3D63DAC4.3080201@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <B9893335.6A82E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/21/02 11:24 AM, Bruce Johnson at johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu wrote:

>=20
> Watched it the other day...my wife was astounded at the Soviets handing
> out a rifle and a clip to every other guy, then just a clip to the next.
>=20
> They certainly got the desperation factor down with the Soviets during
> the battle of Stalingrad.

I seem to remember something about an SMG factory at Stalingrad.  The guns
ran along the assembly line to the end where they were handed to soldiers
who were fighting in that end of the factory.  Ouch!
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 13:15:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 21 12:15:17 2002
Subject: [TML] drugs
Message-ID: <45.1c14623d.2a954027@aol.com>

 >> Ah.  This goes to the whole reason drugs are illegal.  Freedom
 >> requires responsibility, but drugs undermine precisely that.  It is
 >> not possible to use (serious) drugs responsibly.
 >
 >That would imply that, if I were intoxicated, I cannot be held
 >responsible.  Which is nonsense.  The decision to take a drug provides
 >all the justification needed to punish for actions taken under its
 >influence.

You're missing the point.  Taking drugs is an inherently irresponsible act, 
in and of itself, degrading the judgement and self-control necessary in a 
free (or, for that matter, any) society.  It's like draining the brake fluid 
out of a car and then driving -- the state doesn't require an accident to 
occur before it hauls the car and driver off of the road, it does it 
immediately on recognition of the potential hazard being posed.  This is 
reasonable.  Drug ingestion inherently and demonstrably leads to hazards, 
therefore we ban drugs.  And this is OT, so I'll shut up now.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 13:19:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed Aug 21 12:19:04 2002
Subject: [TML] drugs
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E6B@USCHM203>

>Bruce Johnson wrote:

>I personally know several people that have told me it was harder to quit 
>smoking than it was to quit heroin. Harder, even than meth, which is 
>saying something.

>From personal experience, it was alot harder, by orders of magnitude, to
quit smoking than it was to stop doing coke(hey, it was the 80s).
The latter was just a matter of "This is no longer fun, and costs too much
money." That was it. Done. And no regrets
The former has taken years, many false starts, and I still couldn't say that
I've really quit, for on those increasingly rare occasions that I go out
drinking, I still like to have to have a cigarette with my beer.

 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 13:21:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Wed Aug 21 12:21:46 2002
Subject: Drugs (was Re: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of
In-Reply-To: <E17hakh-0005n3-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <B989354A.6A910%listmom@travellercentral.com>

Please note:  This topic, being unrelated to Traveller, has been moved to
TML-Chat



-- 
listmom@travellercentral.com
for list information see
http://lists.travellercentral.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 13:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Aug 21 12:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] drugs
In-Reply-To: <20020821190723.36426.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B9893691.6A916%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/21/02 12:07 PM, Paul Walker at traveller_tv@yahoo.com wrote:

>=20
> I mean, there are probably many societies in the
> Imperium that view others much the same way the Zho's
> view the Impies.  How do they all "get along" to make
> the sandbox a happy place?
>=20
> Or maybe they don't.  Does the Baron of the Planet
> Restrictia declare a freedom fighting war on the the
> government of Fredonia in the name of the poor
> inhabitants.  After all, says the good Baron, the
> Baron of Fredonia is inhumane for allowing his
> citizens access to caffine!!!  Or maybe vice versa
> because the Baron of Restrictia is not allowing
> personal freedoms to his citizens.
>=20
> How can we all just get along?
>=20

This has always been a question of mine.  How does the Imperium stay
together without a unified Imperial culture and a unified body of laws.  An=
d
how does the Imperium conduct wars if the member worlds don't see the
opposition as a direct threat.  "It's an Imperial thing, and doesn't involv=
e
us."

Frankly, I just don't see how the Imperium can be anything other than a ver=
y
loose and weak confederation.  It is certainly not an empire.  It seems mor=
e
like a high tech Balkans.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 13:28:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 21 12:28:04 2002
Subject: [TML] drugs
Message-ID: <d.2bbf53b0.2a954327@aol.com>

 >>And you are in favour of bringing back Prohibition of alcohol I take
 >>it, using the same specious argument?
 >
 >Using that argument, I should be against firearm ownership, smoking, eating
 >fatty foods, etc.

Not at all.  Firearms, smoking, fatty foods, etc. do not undermine judgement. 
 Drugs do.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 13:30:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Aug 21 12:30:50 2002
Subject: [TML] drugs
In-Reply-To: <45.1c14623d.2a954027@aol.com>
References: <45.1c14623d.2a954027@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m38z30dnew.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
>
> Taking drugs is an inherently irresponsible act, in and of itself,
> degrading the judgement and self-control necessary in a free (or,
> for that matter, any) society.

Oh, come _on_.  I suppose, then, that you are for the prohibition of
caffeine.  And turkey ('cause it makes one drowsy).  And love ('cause
it makes one act like a fool).

As I like to point out to teetotallers of the religious persuasion,
the good Lord _made_ wine.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The aggressor is a man of peace.  He wants nothing more than to march
into a neighbouring country unresisted.                  --Clausewitz

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 13:34:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug 21 12:34:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Crematory Diamonds
In-Reply-To: <LJEOKOLOEDDIABGEINLMEEMEECAA.tml@jtas.org>
References: <m3ofbwuom1.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020821122511.009f2a70@mindspring.com>

At 01:20 PM 8/21/02 -0400, you wrote:
>What kind of gem would a penguin become?

You ain't finding out from *this* penguin.  Because if I fail in my bid for 
immortality, my body is being dumped on the body farm for research.

-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Death is an experience best avoided, as it makes
reliable internet access difficult to obtain.
                        - Xaonon, in alt.atheism



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 13:37:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug 21 12:37:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: drugs
In-Reply-To: <sd63a5d6.022@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020821122739.009f5c60@mindspring.com>

At 02:38 PM 8/21/02 -0400, you wrote:
>As much as I find this particular thread VERY interesting, and inasmuch
>as I have been sorely tempted to really flame some folks here for their
>shortsightedness but have held my tongue in my head out of respect for
>others, could we perhaps find a home for this thread off the TML?

It has found a home, full of happy flaming, on TML-Chat.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"I'm just trying to evict them. Frogs never pay."
                             - Rose Platt



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 13:40:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug 21 12:40:00 2002
Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
In-Reply-To: <3D63DAC4.3080201@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020820180524.009e3710@mindspring.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020821090432.009ec4e0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020821122257.009e7cb0@mindspring.com>

At 11:24 AM 8/21/02 -0700, you wrote:

>Just out of curiosity, what did you think of "Enemy at the Gates"?

Loved it.

>Watched it the other day...my wife was astounded at the Soviets handing 
>out a rifle and a clip to every other guy, then just a clip to the next.

That's what happens when you are short of weapons.  Wait for the Germans to 
kill the guy with the rifle, and then pick it up.  Or grab a German weapon.

>They certainly got the desperation factor down with the Soviets during the 
>battle of Stalingrad.
>
>I just didn't remember Kruschev being in charge there...

He wasn't, he was a commisar.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 13:44:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug 21 12:44:32 2002
Subject: [TML] spreading tech knowledge
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1029949575.3990.ajackson@ping>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020821091708.009df780@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020821123045.009e6bb0@mindspring.com>

At 10:06 AM 8/21/02 -0700, you wrote:
>Douglas Berry writes:
> >
> > But almost all of the TL 6-7 material is imported.  It is much easier to
> > buy the finished product than go to the trouble of building the
> > infrastructure to build your own AK clone.
>
>Sure, but for the practical use of TL (what can PCs expect to find on the
>world), the issue of whether the tech is imported or local really doesn't
>matter.  If you're going to require a local production standard, you wind up
>with the problem of 'low-pop worlds cannot have TLs higher than 5'.

I don't see that.

The way I have always seen it is there is a bubble of high-tech around the 
starport.  Brought in by spacers and imported and sold off 
immediately.  The farther you travel from the starport, the fewer import 
items you'll see.

Yes, you can find GTL 12 items on a GTL 6 world, but it will be very 
expensive and fairly rare.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 13:47:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Wed Aug 21 12:47:23 2002
Subject: [TML] drugs
In-Reply-To: <d.2bbf53b0.2a954327@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208211235190.1003-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Wed, 21 Aug 2002 Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> Not at all.  Firearms, smoking, fatty foods, etc. do not undermine judgement. 
>  Drugs do.

So does religion but we don't ban that.
**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 13:50:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 21 12:50:21 2002
Subject: [TML] spreading tech knowledge
Message-ID: <cf.1bc7f052.2a95467c@aol.com>

 >> But almost all of the TL 6-7 material is imported.  It is much easier to 
 >> buy the finished product than go to the trouble of building the 
 >> infrastructure to build your own AK clone.
 >
 >Sure, but for the practical use of TL (what can PCs expect to find on the
 >world), the issue of whether the tech is imported or local really doesn't
 >matter.  If you're going to require a local production standard, you wind up
 >with the problem of 'low-pop worlds cannot have TLs higher than 5'.

But going by what PC's can find it would be difficult to say that any world 
that has a starport and isn't xenophobic isn't tech 12+.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 13:54:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Wed Aug 21 12:54:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Crematory Diamonds
In-Reply-To: <m3ofbwuom1.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <FCEELPFINMLKHFKNLPJFEECFDGAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>

OK I just had an idea for a D&D encounter based on the Duke of Wossname,
Thanks :)

btw also quite icky I like it

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Robert Uhl
> <ruhl@4dv.net>
> Sent: 21 August 2002 18:08
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] Crematory Diamonds
>
>
> I saw on my pager that a company named Life Gem offers a service
> wherein one's cremated ashes are turned into a synthetic diamond.
> Although I personally dislike cremation, I figure that it make make a
> good bit of local flavour.
>
> Say, the Duke of Wossname's coronet is studded with the previous
> dukes.
>
> Or a mob boss has his enemies turned into jewelry.
>
> Or...

Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
mailto:peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
  	And life is harsh and rarely fair.
I was about to say that there are times when you should ignore rules and
social niceties, but that might not be a message that I want a large,
non-human carnivore to pick up. - www.purrsia.com/Freefall , 12th June 2002


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 13:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Wed Aug 21 12:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Returning from London + more
Message-ID: <F57THfyQgeDKvPEkGhA000002d6@hotmail.com>

Hi everyone!

Anything interesting happen the last week or so while was in London?

Some random thoughts...


* Everybody who hasn't already seen Jesse's "PF Sloan dying" from the latest 
update should do so now. It's one of his best pictures yet. Nice job Jesse!

http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_news.htm

* The people who run the Whipsnade Zoo in London should be ashamed of 
themself. They didn't actually have any Whipsnades at all (maybe they had 
escaped ;) so we went to the London Zoo instead. At least they had penguins. 
:)

* Speaking of penguins I got my greedy hands on ACQ while in London. I 
haven't had the possibility to try it out because my gaming group emigrated 
south but it sure looks promising (I'm a big fan of Jagged Alliance). I also 
got 101 Corporations, 101 Lifeforms and 101 Goverments. I very impressed of 
the variaty in 101 Lifeforms.


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 14:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Aug 21 13:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] drugs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208211235190.1003-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Message-ID: <B98940C4.6A92C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/21/02 12:35 PM, Azalais Malfoy at tiamat@tsoft.com wrote:

> On Wed, 21 Aug 2002 Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
>=20
>> Not at all.  Firearms, smoking, fatty foods, etc. do not undermine judge=
ment.
>> Drugs do.
>=20
> So does religion but we don't ban that.

Probably something to do with the First amendment.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

Damn Constitution!<g>
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 14:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Aug 21 13:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] spreading tech knowledge
In-Reply-To: <cf.1bc7f052.2a95467c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029960748.7116.ajackson@ping>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
> 
> But going by what PC's can find it would be difficult to say that any world
>  that has a starport and isn't xenophobic isn't tech 12+.

Yeah, well, that's a problem with just about _any_ TL measure I've seen
proposed.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 14:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Aug 21 13:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020821122257.009e7cb0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B98943A0.6A92F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/21/02 12:24 PM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:

> At 11:24 AM 8/21/02 -0700, you wrote:
>=20
>> Just out of curiosity, what did you think of "Enemy at the Gates"?
>=20
> Loved it.
>=20
>> Watched it the other day...my wife was astounded at the Soviets handing
>> out a rifle and a clip to every other guy, then just a clip to the next.
>=20
> That's what happens when you are short of weapons.  Wait for the Germans =
to
> kill the guy with the rifle, and then pick it up.  Or grab a German weapo=
n.

Something similar happened with some southern units towards the end of the
American civil war.

The PCs have been recruited for a really bad mercenary ticket...
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 14:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Evyn MacDude)
Date: Wed Aug 21 13:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Crematory Diamonds
References: <m3ofbwuom1.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <3D63F90A.5060905@attbi.com>

That gives a whole new meaning to the family jewels....

Robert Uhl wrote:

> I saw on my pager that a company named Life Gem offers a service
> wherein one's cremated ashes are turned into a synthetic diamond.
> Although I personally dislike cremation, I figure that it make make a
> good bit of local flavour.
> 
> Say, the Duke of Wossname's coronet is studded with the previous
> dukes.
> 
> Or a mob boss has his enemies turned into jewelry.
> 
> Or...
> 
> 


-- 
Evyn

We're poor little lambs who've lost our way,
Baa! Baa! Baa!
We're little black sheep who have gone astray,
Baa - aa - aa!
Gentlemen rankers out on the spree,
Damned from here to Eternity,
God ha' mercy on such as we,
Baa! Yah! Baa!
R. Kipling, Gentlemen Rankers


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 14:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Aug 21 13:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Crematory Diamonds
In-Reply-To: <3D63F90A.5060905@attbi.com>
Message-ID: <B989484D.6A936%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/21/02 1:33 PM, Evyn MacDude at wmacdude@attbi.com wrote:

> That gives a whole new meaning to the family jewels....
>=20
The PCs are hired to retrieve the family jewels.  After a bit of a
misunderstanding...

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 15:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Wed Aug 21 14:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] HGS ships Q&A
Message-ID: <3D640081.9C3C42A8@mail.cswnet.com>

Anybody ever try to do the Gazelle or the Fer-de-lance
using HGS. I've tried and the figures don't add up right.
I just tried the Fer-de-lance today just now and its just over
its tonnage by the amount of the Fuel Purification Plant.
I've tried the Gazelle before and it doesn't look kosher either.

Any thoughts?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 15:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Wed Aug 21 14:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] drugs
Message-ID: <20020821172050.ff21523dd1444c229ad9aacef44bfaa8.in@keywest.kennett.net>

> >>And you are in favour of bringing back Prohibition of alcohol I take
> >>it, using the same specious argument?
> >
> >Using that argument, I should be against firearm ownership, smoking, eating
> >fatty foods, etc.
>
>Not at all.  Firearms, smoking, fatty foods, etc. do not undermine judgement. 
> Drugs do.

I know.  I was using those examples to point how silly the argument can get.

C.T.


"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 15:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Aug 21 14:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Lasers and sound
References: <B9892FE1.6A826%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D640694.7070700@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> on 8/21/02 11:39 AM, Bruce Johnson at johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu wrote:

> I was just hoping for a generic answer.  Someone had made the comparison
> with lightening and I observed that even relatively modest static
> electricity will make an audible 'snap'.  My only exposure to high powered
> lasers is YAG lasers used for sheet metal cutting, and they do make noise,
> though how much is from the steel itself I couldn't say.

part of the problem is that we just don't know. We've not got 
weapons-grade lasers in operation yet, and the few people who do know if 
these things make noise aren't talking (or considering they're shooting 
them out of 747's cruising at altitude) or they don't know either ;-)

I'd personally rule they make a quiet crackling noise, just to keep 
everybody unsatisfied ;-)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 15:35:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug 21 14:35:19 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020821120313.da89a685d65a4948876eec7e96227417.in@keywest.kennett.net>
References: <20020821120313.da89a685d65a4948876eec7e96227417.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <20020822073348.A17114@freeman.little-possums.net>

Cheng Tseng wrote:
> Using that argument, I should be against firearm ownership, smoking,
> eating fatty foods, etc.

Hey, it was your argument.  If you don't follow it yourself, it's
hardly going to convince me.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 15:38:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug 21 14:38:09 2002
Subject: [TML] drugs
In-Reply-To: <20020821174539.16a5f0b1.jenry023@student.liu.se>
References: <28.2b75d1f3.2a95089d@aol.com> <m38z30w7jc.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> <20020821174539.16a5f0b1.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20020822073602.B17114@freeman.little-possums.net>

Jens Rydholm wrote:
> True, but if someone takes drugs, (s)he increases his/her probability of
> commiting a crime. That's why it is not allowed.

Ah yes, the War on Some Drugs argument.  The one that implies that we
ought to ban *all* drugs.  And cars.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 15:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (THOMAS BARNES)
Date: Wed Aug 21 14:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E5F@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <web-1441318@dc-mxdb02.cluster1.charter.net>

>Might have to check the facts. I thought the pictures I 
>saw were recent, and
>was pretty sure it was a PBY. I might have seen a story 
>on the Grumman Goose
>and thought it was a PBY(I don't know if the two are 
>similar looking). 

A Grumman Goose is a relatively small twin-engine flying 
boat with the wing level with the top of the hull.  The 
Grumman Albatross is similar in appearance, but a larger 
airplane.

A PBY is a large twin-engine flying boat with the wing 
supported above the hull on a large central pylon and two 
struts on either side.  Also, the PBY has a relatively 
slender hull with two prominent observation blisters aft 
of the wing.  A Goose has a deeper hull, and lacks the 
observation blisters.

TWB

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 16:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed Aug 21 15:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E6E@USCHM203>

>Tod Glenn wrote:

>I seem to remember something about an SMG factory at Stalingrad.  The >guns
>ran along the assembly line to the end where they were handed to soldiers
>who were fighting in that end of the factory.  Ouch!

At the Dzerzhinsky (sp?) Tractor Works, they were still rolling T-34s off
the assembly line while the Germans occupied other parts of the factory(this
was a huge facility). Tanks came off the assembly line unpainted, were
quickly manned and loaded with ammo, and sent directly into the battle mere
hundreds of yards away.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 16:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Aug 21 15:12:02 2002
Subject: Parrothead trivia was Re: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly
 of the beast
References: <web-1441318@dc-mxdb02.cluster1.charter.net>
Message-ID: <3D640F8D.5030306@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

THOMAS BARNES wrote:
>> Might have to check the facts. I thought the pictures I saw were 
>> recent, and
>> was pretty sure it was a PBY. I might have seen a story on the Grumman 
>> Goose
>> and thought it was a PBY(I don't know if the two are similar looking). 
> 
> 
> A Grumman Goose is a relatively small twin-engine flying boat with the 
> wing level with the top of the hull.  The Grumman Albatross is similar 
> in appearance, but a larger airplane.
> 
> A PBY is a large twin-engine flying boat with the wing supported above 
> the hull on a large central pylon and two struts on either side.  Also, 
> the PBY has a relatively slender hull with two prominent observation 
> blisters aft of the wing.  A Goose has a deeper hull, and lacks the 
> observation blisters.

His plane is an Albatross.

http://www.lpba.org/buffett.html

His book "A Pirate looks at 50" recounts fascination with seaplanes and 
  his crash, which was in Nantucket not Long Island.

I'll dig it out; I have it a home. I suspect I'm confabulating "Pirate" 
and "Where is Joe Merchant" which was a Grumman Goose.


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 16:14:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Wed Aug 21 15:14:53 2002
Subject: [TML] HGS ships Q&A
Message-ID: <200208211707.AA14483628@caddocourt.com>

From: Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>
>Anybody ever try to do the Gazelle or the Fer-de-lance
>using HGS. I've tried and the figures don't add up right.
>I just tried the Fer-de-lance today just now and its just over
>its tonnage by the amount of the Fuel Purification Plant.
>I've tried the Gazelle before and it doesn't look kosher either.

I have no idea what the Fer-de-lance is.  However, having
tried to recreate some others (AHL, Leviathan, Kinuir, Gazelle)
I have to agree with the general concensus that they are all
hideously broken.

Specifically for the Gazelle, it is NOT a 400 ton ship.  It
is only a 300 ton ship that uses 100 ton drop tanks.  As such
it should only be able to mount 3 turrets, not 4.  (Oddly, the
Fiery is OK with the 4 turrets.)

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 16:18:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug 21 15:18:04 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020821123936.a3dbf7ac36e246cdaa5d867a03de9607.in@keywest.kennett.net>
References: <20020821123936.a3dbf7ac36e246cdaa5d867a03de9607.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <20020822081320.C17114@freeman.little-possums.net>

Cheng Tseng wrote:
> It is hard enough to do so,

Says who?  I know lots of people who aren't alcoholic, and a number of
people who don't even get drunk.


> So do firearms.  Private ownership serves no good purpose except endanger
> people.  It is a dangerous tool that many people die from.  It is their
> fault, and if we want to save lives, we should grab guns.

Oh great, as if the off-topic argument wasn't bad enough already...


> You do not want to be bother to make the call.  Ah, I see now.

You're wilfully misunderstanding him, and fooling no-one but yourself.


> Being drunk and driving is illegal.

DUI is illegal whether via alcohol or otherwise, e.g. it also applies
to many prescription drugs, and to having a medical condition that
would make driving unsafe.  It forms part of the pre-existing
endangerment laws I mentioned earlier.  It is not a valid argument for
making mind-affecting drugs or such medical conditions illegal.


> How much regulation would you accept for the legalization of drugs?

I would accept similar regulation on public behaviour to alcohol
intoxication.  I might even accept slightly wider restrictions on
activities, although at the moment I can't think of any I would
restrict that aren't already banned to people who are drunk.

Quality of drugs being sold should also be regulated, just as it is
illegal to sell methylated spirits as fit for human consumption.
Correct labelling of the composition of any purchased drugs should
also be mandatory.  I would accept other mandatory regulations on
sale, e.g. only to responsible persons, requirement for prominent
warnings, etc.

The regulations that surround alcohol use are sufficient for most
other drugs.  This is not surprising, since alcohol is quite a
dangerous and addictive drug in its own right.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 16:21:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Aug 21 15:21:27 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020821015438.31342fea6cbc46c6917d2b4a00ec6cab.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <3D64B9DF.14723.44EE59@localhost>

On 21 Aug 2002 at 1:56, Cheng Tseng wrote:

> With all the information about LSD, I am stunned to hear something
> so amazingly naive.  The drug serves no useful purpose (Which annoys
> the efficiency part in me.) and the dangers are well known.  But you
> apparently can not make a judgement call on a person trying to take
> the drug. 

Lack of useful purpose is not a reason to ban something. If it were the 
list of banned things would be enormous. We can start with rpgs, 
paintings, SF novels, most TV programming (though this might be a good 
thing), just about every movie ever made...

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 16:24:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (THOMAS BARNES)
Date: Wed Aug 21 15:24:30 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast
In-Reply-To: <web-1441318@dc-mxdb02.cluster1.charter.net>
Message-ID: <web-1441421@dc-mxdb02.cluster1.charter.net>

On Wed, 21 Aug 2002 17:49:53 -0400
  "THOMAS BARNES" <twb3@charter.net> wrote:
>>Might have to check the facts. I thought the pictures I 
>>saw were recent, and
>>was pretty sure it was a PBY. I might have seen a story 
>>on the Grumman Goose
>>and thought it was a PBY(I don't know if the two are 
>>similar looking). 
>

I took a look at Jimmy Buffet's website -- apparently, he 
crashed a Grumman Widgeon (very similar to a Grumman 
Goose) and replaced it with a Grumman Albatross.

TWB

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 16:28:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Aug 21 15:28:26 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020821115558.c2193f72eaf84843badde60a32bb2c13.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <3D64BBD0.6996.4C81F9@localhost>

On 21 Aug 2002 at 11:57, Cheng Tseng wrote:

> Yes, I know.  But the fast battleships were of the dreadnought
> variety.  I seen people argue the IOWAs were closer to
> battlecruisers.  But they are still dreadnoughts. 

Well, while their deck armour was pretty good, their belts were pretty 
thin for a time when 14"-16" guns were the norm. IMO their good deck 
armour means they can be called 'fast battleships', but I don't think 
they'd have done very well in a punch-fest with a better balanced 
design.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 16:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Wed Aug 21 15:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020822081320.C17114@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <B98963A3.6A952%listmom@travellercentral.com>

This topic, being unrelated to Traveller, has been moved to TML-chat.
Please do not post non-Traveller material on the TML.

-- 
listmom@travellercentral.com
for list information see
http://lists.travellercentral.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 16:40:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (THOMAS BARNES)
Date: Wed Aug 21 15:40:08 2002
Subject: [TML] The cloak
In-Reply-To: <B9891254.6A7E9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <web-1441460@dc-mxdb02.cluster1.charter.net>

>
>In a universe where the perfect body is easily obtained, 
>what will people do
>to stand out in a crowd?
>
Hmmm...that implies that there is a consistent standard 
for "the perfect body", which I do not believe is true now 
despite the best efforts of the entertainment community.

In a Traveller Universe I suspect that idealized body 
image will be even more variable across worlds and 
cultures than is the case on Earth today.  With advanced 
medical bodysculpting techniques, I envision that people 
with access to high-tech medical care will look just like 
they want to (Michael Jackson comes to mind, which is a 
rather disturbing image...).  

Just as with clothing, some will slavishy adhere to the 
popular trends (fashion update from Capital: brow ridges 
are IN, and last year's big biceps are OUT among the smart 
set at court this season...), while others will appear as 
they damned well please.  Iconoclasts may well eschew ANY 
body modification, at least until "the natrual look" holds 
fashion sway.

If you really want to stand out in the crowd, you may well 
have to do something that borders on the medically 
unethical.  

Actually, I'm getting a little ill thinking about the 
possibilities.  Just one more aspect of my belief that the 
problems presented to humaniti by the physicists in the 
20th Century (nuclear weapons, et.al.) will pale in 
comparison to the problems presented by the biologists in 
the 21st.

Tom Barnes

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 16:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Aug 21 15:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] HGS ships Q&A
Message-ID: <F261dOo3vtQ5js4ACbg0000bb5d@hotmail.com>

From: Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>

     "Anybody ever try to do the Gazelle or the Fer-de-lance using HGS. I've 
tried and the figures don't add up right.  I just tried the Fer-de-lance 
today just now and its just over its tonnage by the amount of the Fuel 
Purification Plant.  I've tried the Gazelle before and it doesn't look 
kosher either."


Mr. Roseberry,

     IIRC, the Gazelle is a pre-HG design and isn't really compatible with 
any system.  AM-V's excellent HGS program has a data sheet for it, but there 
is also a "broken design" note appended.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 16:52:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Aug 21 15:52:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
Message-ID: <200208212249.NGZ02010@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry says
>That's what happens when you are short of weapons.  Wait for 
>the Germans to kill the guy with the rifle, and then pick it 
>up.  Or grab a German weapon.

My dad's Korean War stories involve Chinese human wave 
charges.  One out of ten Chinese had a weapon, usually a PPSh 
with one or maybe two magazines (lot of rounds there).  
Almost all of them had stick grenades, and all without a 
firearm had a bamboo stick sharpened at one end.

The idea was to rush the American positions.  If you have 
20,000 guys packed into a front 500 meters across, and swarm 
up a hill, the people on the hill, even if it's a company, 
will have trouble changing magazines and barrels fast enough.

He remembers various tactics - stay in your holes while the 
officers call pre-arranged VT on your own position - run off 
the hill while the Marine Air puts napalm on your previous 
position then run back after the flames go out - or firing 
every weapon you have until you run out of ammo and the guns 
jam and you all run like hell, leaving the Turkish unit 
behind.

The Turks, curiously, were still there when the sun came up, 
in a heap of Chinese bodies.
________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 16:55:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Aug 21 15:55:09 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <3D64BBD0.6996.4C81F9@localhost>
Message-ID: <B9896788.6A95E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/21/02 3:24 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:

> On 21 Aug 2002 at 11:57, Cheng Tseng wrote:
>=20
>> Yes, I know.  But the fast battleships were of the dreadnought
>> variety.  I seen people argue the IOWAs were closer to
>> battlecruisers.  But they are still dreadnoughts.

A dreadnaught in the sense that it is a ship having main guns all of the
same caliber (9 16" rifles).
>=20
> Well, while their deck armour was pretty good, their belts were pretty
> thin for a time when 14"-16" guns were the norm. IMO their good deck
> armour means they can be called 'fast battleships', but I don't think
> they'd have done very well in a punch-fest with a better balanced
> design.

The Iowa class had armored belts 12.1 inches thick and inclined at 19
degrees. This was considered sufficient for shells from existing 16" guns.

see: http://www.battleship.org/html/Articles/IowaClass/Armor.htm

Certainly, it seems odd to call these battlecruisers.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 17:01:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Aug 21 16:01:07 2002
Subject: [TML] The Drug Thread
Message-ID: <F137TXSRdZqou2Vythh0000060e@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     Let's all drop the "drug" thread, shall we?
     As Mr. Berry has already pointed out, it already enjoys a healthy life 
on TML-Chat, so why let it spill over onto the regular List?
     While the various opinions and viewpoints expressed on the topic by the 
wide skein of folks on the List have been (usually) a delight to read, the 
threat of such an emotional topic to morph into a bare-knuckled flame war 
far outweighs any pleasure the thread brings.
     May I suggest some more innocuous topics?  Alternate lifestyle Aslan 
females in comfortable shoes who inhabit near-c rocks and help maintain the 
tech level of the Rule of Man might be fun.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

P.S.  For decades a running joke in the wargaming industry was that for any 
game to sell well it must have nukes, Nazis, or NATO in it.  This led Ty 
Bomba and XTR to develop and sell a wargame that featured ALL three of those 
topics!
     In this vein, what topics would comprise be the "killer" TML thread?

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 17:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Wed Aug 21 16:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] drugs
Message-ID: <memo.36817@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <20020822073602.B17114@freeman.little-possums.net>
As a matter of interest, how many listmembers like to drink, smoke or use 
some other psychotropic substance while role-playing?

Most people think I don't drink at all, because I don't mix alcohol with 
role-playing. 

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 17:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (markc@peak.org)
Date: Wed Aug 21 16:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Prohibition
Message-ID: <48270-2200283212395058@M2W081.mail2web.com>

Cheng Tseng <cxt217@kennett=2Enet> writes:

> > Alcohol serves no useful purpose=2E  It's a poison=2E  Many people
> > a year die from it=2E  But it's their own damn fault=2E
>
> So do firearms=2E  Private ownership serves no good purpose except
> endanger people=2E  It is a dangerous tool that many people die from=2E
> It is their fault, and if we want to save lives, we should grab guns=2E

Ah, the voice of the truly clueless sounds=2E  Firearms (by conservative
estimate) prevent 2=2E4 *MILLION* crimes a year in the U=2ES=2E alone=2E S=
ince
1990, firearms ownership in the United States has steadily risen, while
firearm related deaths (for all age groups) have declined=2E  Can this
be said for automobile ownership, or even alcohol consumption?

Didn't think so=2E

    - Mark C=2E
      NRA-certified Instructor
      Willamette Small Arms Academy



--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 17:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Aug 21 16:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Returning from London + more
Message-ID: <F66Y1R5vdvW6KDDG5Dc0000e120@hotmail.com>

From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>

      * The people who run the Whipsnade Zoo in London should be ashamed of 
themself. They didn't actually have any Whipsnades at all (maybe they had 
escaped ;) so we went to the London Zoo instead. At least they had penguins. 
:)


Mr. Holmstrom,

     My apologies, sir, but the Whipsnade habitat at the zoo is currently 
being refurbished and all Whipsnades have been temporarily relocated during 
the construction to the Island of Yap.
     The new Whipsnade exhibit, due to open in early 2004, will feature an 
off-track betting parlor, 24-hour masseuse, micro-brewery, Roman-style 
baths, broadband cable/internet access, and a warm place to sh*t.
     Rental applications are being accepted now.
     During the refurbishment, all mail and inquiries should be redirected 
to:

     L.E. Whipsnade
     Third Hammock from the left
     Big Palm Tree by the lagoon
     The Isle of Yap


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 17:15:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Wed Aug 21 16:15:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <20020821120203.7349.49535.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentra
 l.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020821161031.00b458e8@mailhost.efn.org>

"Frankie" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote:

>For a live game a few years back, my character had brought along what
>was supposed to be the jury-rigged business end of a submarine-launched
>nuclear weapon.

(snip)

>Surprisingly, it took almost a quarter of an hour for someone to notice
>it, and a further quarter hour before most people started to realize
>they might be in serious danger.

*I'm* not surprised.  LARPers, in aggregate, are that stupid.  (And I say 
this as someone who used to staff/referee for one.)



--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 17:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Aug 21 16:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast
References: <web-1441421@dc-mxdb02.cluster1.charter.net>
Message-ID: <3D641F23.5090900@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

THOMAS BARNES wrote:

> I took a look at Jimmy Buffet's website -- apparently, he crashed a 
> Grumman Widgeon (very similar to a Grumman Goose) and replaced it with a 
> Grumman Albatross.

Ok, what he said...btw where did you find that? I looked all over for it.

Here's a Widegeon for sale:

http://www.vickivt.com/vicki/v02139.htm

Now I can forgo looking for the Pirate looks at 50 book, and look up the 
Grummans in my Encyclopedia of Civil Aircraft.

All I can say is this discussion's got me wishing I had a pile of money:

http://www.vickivt.com/vicki/v02173.htm Hey, only 795K

I think the Goose is one of the prettiest planes ever made.

(Then, I'm weird, I also think that a C130 is a handsome aircraft...)


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 17:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Wed Aug 21 16:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <20020821192126.e2d5452dc3594a5895b7b3370aece2db.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>>> Yes, I know.  But the fast battleships were of the dreadnought
>>> variety.  I seen people argue the IOWAs were closer to
>>> battlecruisers.  But they are still dreadnoughts.
>
>A dreadnaught in the sense that it is a ship having main guns all of the
>same caliber (9 16" rifles).

Well, the DREADNOUGHT herself only had one type of guns...Though people
learned that having a smaller, quicker firing gun in addition was better...
 
>> Well, while their deck armour was pretty good, their belts were pretty
>> thin for a time when 14"-16" guns were the norm. IMO their good deck
>> armour means they can be called 'fast battleships', but I don't think
>> they'd have done very well in a punch-fest with a better balanced
>> design.
>
>The Iowa class had armored belts 12.1 inches thick and inclined at 19
>degrees. This was considered sufficient for shells from existing 16" guns.

For 16" 45 calibur, as used as the main armament on the NORTH CAROLINA and
SOUTH DAKOTA classes (And of an earlier type, on the COLORADO class.).  They
could not stand up against 16" 50 used by the IOWAs themselves.

The fast battleships was a distinctive break from standard USN design
practice for battleships because their armor belt could NOT stand hits by
guns as powerful as the ships themselves carried.

>see: http://www.battleship.org/html/Articles/IowaClass/Armor.htm
>
>Certainly, it seems odd to call these battlecruisers.

The line of thinking was that the emphasis in design for the IOWAs made them
closer to a HOOD then a WEST VIRGINIA.  They traded speed for armor, inspite
of the growth in size.  Indeed, the only way a ship carrying 16" 50 guns and
armor to withstand it, while having higher then American normal speed, was
to build something like the MONTANAs.

C.T. 


"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 17:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Aug 21 16:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <B9896788.6A95E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <3D64BBD0.6996.4C81F9@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D64CAD6.23117.8733B8@localhost>

On 21 Aug 2002 at 15:51, Tod Glenn wrote:

> The Iowa class had armored belts 12.1 inches thick and inclined at 19
> degrees. This was considered sufficient for shells from existing 16" guns.

Considering that the rule of thumb was that a heavy gun shell would 
penetrate about its own calibre in armour I think this is a little 
optimistic. Seeing as the US seemed to think its own 16" guns would do 
better than this its also probably based on the notion that everyone 
else is inferior.

Besides, they are so long that there's no way that belt could be both 
full-length and deep, so either there's a risk of getting the ends 
riddled, or the belt won't be protecting properly with a light load, a 
full load, or both. Any of these options (a quick web search suggests 
that the first was taken, probably because the bow was so fine that it 
had little buoyancy anyway) means that the vessel isn't as protected as 
it might be. That lack of protection to the bow could quite well have 
cost these ships their speed advantage very quicky, because of this.

Also it's worth noting that in 1942 a US 16" shell penetrated 8.8" 
worth of deck armour on the Jean Bart, which is more than the Iowa had, 
and in a similar distribution, which suggests that the deck armour was 
in fact no more than 'adequate', if that. In all fairness this critism 
probably applies to just about every battleship in existence's deck 
armour, except maybe the Yamotos.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 17:33:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Wed Aug 21 16:33:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Prohibition
In-Reply-To: <48270-2200283212395058@M2W081.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1029972649.2825.ajackson@ping>

markc@peak.org writes:
> 
> Ah, the voice of the truly clueless sounds.  Firearms (by conservative
> estimate) prevent 2.4 *MILLION* crimes a year in the U.S. alone.

Ah, the voice of the truly self-deceiving sounds.  There's no really good
evidence for firearms affecting the crime rate in any way other than the fact
that if a _very_ small number of guns are available (not generally a factor
anywhere in the US), shootings are less common, though social factors may be
responsible (IIRC, in the UK shootings are less common, assault is more
common).

> Since
> 1990, firearms ownership in the United States has steadily risen, while
> firearm related deaths (for all age groups) have declined.

False cause and effect.  There's half a dozen explanations for the drop in
crime in the 90s (which applies to non-firearms related crimes as well), the
most common of which seems to be a combination of 'strong economy' and 'not as
many young men'.

Of course, a separate issue is that the fraction of shootings which are fatal
has dropped constantly for the last fifty years or so.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 17:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Aug 21 16:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020821192126.e2d5452dc3594a5895b7b3370aece2db.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <3D64CDA6.20142.9230D4@localhost>

On 21 Aug 2002 at 19:23, Cheng Tseng wrote:

> >>> Yes, I know.  But the fast battleships were of the dreadnought
> >>> variety.  I seen people argue the IOWAs were closer to
> >>> battlecruisers.  But they are still dreadnoughts.
> >
> >A dreadnaught in the sense that it is a ship having main guns all of the
> >same caliber (9 16" rifles).
> 
> Well, the DREADNOUGHT herself only had one type of guns...Though people
> learned that having a smaller, quicker firing gun in addition was better...

She originally had two types, the 12" main guns and 27 12-pounders for 
anti-torpedo boat work.
 
> For 16" 45 calibur, as used as the main armament on the NORTH
> CAROLINA and SOUTH DAKOTA classes (And of an earlier type, on the
> COLORADO class.).  They could not stand up against 16" 50 used by the
> IOWAs themselves. 
> 
> The fast battleships was a distinctive break from standard USN design
> practice for battleships because their armor belt could NOT stand hits by
> guns as powerful as the ships themselves carried.

Yep.
 
> The line of thinking was that the emphasis in design for the IOWAs
> made them closer to a HOOD then a WEST VIRGINIA.  They traded speed
> for armor, inspite of the growth in size.  Indeed, the only way a
> ship carrying 16" 50 guns and armor to withstand it, while having
> higher then American normal speed, was to build something like the
> MONTANAs. 

In fact a quick check shows that the Iowa's armour, while newer, was 
about the same in the belt as HMS Hood's, and about the same as her's 
was to have been after her refit (and therefore about 50% thicker than 
it actually was). In fact compared to HMS Hood the Iowa's are about 
5,000 - 10,000 more in displacement (depending on point in their 
careers, load type, etc.) and it just about all went on some more deck 
armour and a knot or two or more speed (on this scale the extra weight 
for one more gun and their extra size is not very significant). 

I do not think a vessel so heavily speed optimised, and so relatively 
un-protected can be classed as a battleship. Fast battleship in the 
British or Japanese sense maybe.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 17:45:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Aug 21 16:45:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
In-Reply-To: <200208212249.NGZ02010@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B9897409.6A979%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/21/02 3:49 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> My dad's Korean War stories involve Chinese human wave
> charges.  One out of ten Chinese had a weapon, usually a PPSh
> with one or maybe two magazines (lot of rounds there).
> Almost all of them had stick grenades, and all without a
> firearm had a bamboo stick sharpened at one end.
>=20
> The idea was to rush the American positions.  If you have
> 20,000 guys packed into a front 500 meters across, and swarm
> up a hill, the people on the hill, even if it's a company,
> will have trouble changing magazines and barrels fast enough.

Which led to the development of the claymore mine and the reintroduction of
canister ammunition for artillery.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 17:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Wed Aug 21 16:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast
Message-ID: <20020821193236.e83193832f294d27a20cd4e103ed85d5.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>
>http://www.vickivt.com/vicki/v02173.htm Hey, only 795K
>
>I think the Goose is one of the prettiest planes ever made.
>
>(Then, I'm weird, I also think that a C130 is a handsome aircraft...)

So, what do you think of the appearance of the Gannett AEW?

C.T.


"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 17:52:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Wed Aug 21 16:52:01 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <20020821193853.500de5ede7654919ba19c71fd4a47b4a.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>On 21 Aug 2002 at 15:51, Tod Glenn wrote:
>
>> The Iowa class had armored belts 12.1 inches thick and inclined at 19
>> degrees. This was considered sufficient for shells from existing 16" guns.
>
>Considering that the rule of thumb was that a heavy gun shell would 
>penetrate about its own calibre in armour I think this is a little 
>optimistic. Seeing as the US seemed to think its own 16" guns would do 
>better than this its also probably based on the notion that everyone 
>else is inferior.

Well, an IOWA would not be able to stand the shells coming from another IOWA
(They fired 16: 50.) when it was only designed to stand fire from a SOUTH
DAKOTA (16" 45.)

>Besides, they are so long that there's no way that belt could be both 
>full-length and deep, so either there's a risk of getting the ends 
>riddled, or the belt won't be protecting properly with a light load, a 
>full load, or both. Any of these options (a quick web search suggests 
>that the first was taken, probably because the bow was so fine that it 
>had little buoyancy anyway) means that the vessel isn't as protected as 
>it might be. That lack of protection to the bow could quite well have 
>cost these ships their speed advantage very quicky, because of this.

That is the sacrifice you make with the "all or nothing" scheme.  The bows
and sterns are extremely vulnerable.  IIRC, there was actually some concern
about the bows of the IOWAs during WW2 when 3rd/5th Fleet went through
storms and heavy seas.

Even the heavier MONTANAs and the YAMATOs suffered from the same problem
(The Japanese tried to dodge around the issue by making the ships very broad.).

C.T.


"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 17:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Aug 21 16:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <B98963A3.6A952%listmom@travellercentral.com>
References: <B98963A3.6A952%listmom@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m3fzx7ixhn.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Listmom <listmom@travellercentral.com> writes:
>
> This topic, being unrelated to Traveller, has been moved to
> TML-chat.

Once again, I'd like to point out that this is why I opposed TML-chat
and oppose it still.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
To be born British is to win first prize in the lottery of life.
                                                 --Cecil Rhodes

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 17:58:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Aug 21 16:58:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Prohibition
References: <ML-2.3.1029972649.2825.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3D64271B.1030603@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Of course, a separate issue is that the fraction of shootings which are fatal
> has dropped constantly for the last fifty years or so.

We've gotten better at treating GSW's, through practice.

Actually, the higest murder rate in NYC was actually in the late 1800's, 
with peaks in (iirc) the 30's and 60's that were greater than what 
happened in the 80's.

However, that too might be due more to medical advances than anything else.


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 18:01:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Aug 21 17:01:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
In-Reply-To: <200208212249.NGZ02010@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208212249.NGZ02010@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <m3bs7vixe4.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> writes:
>
> ...or firing every weapon you have until you run out of ammo and the
> guns jam and you all run like hell, leaving the Turkish unit behind.
> 
> The Turks, curiously, were still there when the sun came up, in a
> heap of Chinese bodies.

Sounds like my great-grandfather's tales of the Senegalese...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Far be it from me to question your stupid civilisation or dumb customs.
                                                                 --Fry

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 18:04:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Aug 21 17:04:57 2002
Subject: [TML] drugs & Role Playing
In-Reply-To: <memo.36817@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <B989759C.6A982%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/21/02 4:00 PM, Megan Robertson at mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk
wrote:

> As a matter of interest, how many listmembers like to drink, smoke or use
> some other psychotropic substance while role-playing?
>=20
> Most people think I don't drink at all, because I don't mix alcohol with
> role-playing.=20


On occasion, I'll have a drink while GMing.  But since it tends to make me
sleepy, I usually don't because my players complain if I end a game early
because I'm tired.  Players are a demanding lot.  Mine seem to think my
whole reason form existence is to entertain them.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 18:09:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Aug 21 17:09:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Returning from London + more
In-Reply-To: <F66Y1R5vdvW6KDDG5Dc0000e120@hotmail.com>
References: <F66Y1R5vdvW6KDDG5Dc0000e120@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <m37kijixai.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> The new Whipsnade exhibit, due to open in early 2004, will feature
> an off-track betting parlor, 24-hour masseuse, micro-brewery,
> Roman-style baths, broadband cable/internet access, and a warm place
> to sh*t.

A microbrewery _and_ a warm toilet?!?  I'll change my name to
Whipsnade...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Better to die on one's feet than to live on one's knees.  --Dolores Ibarruri

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 18:13:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Wed Aug 21 17:13:53 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <20020821195048.e622139a7bf04f878bbb71d8c2613404.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>> The line of thinking was that the emphasis in design for the IOWAs
>> made them closer to a HOOD then a WEST VIRGINIA.  They traded speed
>> for armor, inspite of the growth in size.  Indeed, the only way a
>> ship carrying 16" 50 guns and armor to withstand it, while having
>> higher then American normal speed, was to build something like the
>> MONTANAs. 
>
>In fact a quick check shows that the Iowa's armour, while newer, was 
>about the same in the belt as HMS Hood's, and about the same as her's 
>was to have been after her refit (and therefore about 50% thicker than 
>it actually was). In fact compared to HMS Hood the Iowa's are about 
>5,000 - 10,000 more in displacement (depending on point in their 
>careers, load type, etc.) and it just about all went on some more deck 
>armour and a knot or two or more speed (on this scale the extra weight 
>for one more gun and their extra size is not very significant). 
>
>I do not think a vessel so heavily speed optimised, and so relatively 
>un-protected can be classed as a battleship. Fast battleship in the 
>British or Japanese sense maybe.

So went the argument.  I disagree, and I also believe you really can not say
the KONGOs were any type of battleships.  They were battlecruisers with
fancy dressings on them.

One can also ask what the 10,000 extra tons in a BISMARCK went, compared to
a RICHILIEU or JEAN BART.

C.T.


"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 18:16:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Aug 21 17:16:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Damned Silly Questions
In-Reply-To: <29.2c0d9407.2a950670@cs.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020821195824.022de008@192.168.0.1>

At 11:06 AM 8/21/2002 -0400, Damage169@cs.com wrote:
>John Groth writes:
> > >Can you imagine the Hello Kitty?  Required ship's uniform includes
> > >bow clips for each ear. :)
> >
> > http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~jhoffa/fragments/hello.html
> >
> > ObTrav:  Ummm, powered armor...?
> >
>That is just incredibly wrong on so many levels...(sounds of harddrive saving
>picture) :)
>
>Doug Grimes

Damn, the link is dead now!  Could somebody send the "Eville" picture off list?


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 18:19:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Aug 21 17:19:57 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020821193853.500de5ede7654919ba19c71fd4a47b4a.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <3D64D504.21937.AEF50D@localhost>

On 21 Aug 2002 at 19:40, Cheng Tseng wrote:

> That is the sacrifice you make with the "all or nothing" scheme. 
> The bows and sterns are extremely vulnerable.  IIRC, there was
> actually some concern about the bows of the IOWAs during WW2 when
> 3rd/5th Fleet went through storms and heavy seas. 

I've seen some lovely pictures of the Iowas with green water back to 
the 'A' turret alongside a King George V class (IIRC) BB that was 
nearly dry. I've also read accounts of them in comparison with HMS 
Vangard, which was very dry.

> Even the heavier MONTANAs and the YAMATOs suffered from the same problem
> (The Japanese tried to dodge around the issue by making the ships very broad.).

I think you mean "would have..." in the case of the Montanas, seeing as 
they were never build. As for the Yamoto, she had a narrow bow to try 
and get more speed from a hull that _had_ to be broad because of 
draught limitations due to having to be able to sail in the shallow 
waters around Japan. The IJN would've liked to have made her deeper and 
faster (and with a deeper hull they could've done it on the same 
horsepower, and had more armour as well) so that she could've dictated 
the range - something very high on their list of priorities because of 
how badly the USN out numbered them.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 18:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Aug 21 17:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] drugs & Role Playing
In-Reply-To: <B989759C.6A982%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <memo.36817@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3D64D53F.23535.AFDEC9@localhost>

On 21 Aug 2002 at 16:51, Tod Glenn wrote:

> On occasion, I'll have a drink while GMing.  But since it tends to
> make me sleepy, I usually don't because my players complain if I end
> a game early because I'm tired.  Players are a demanding lot.  Mine
> seem to think my whole reason form existence is to entertain them. 

That's a typical feeling from players. Mine are like that, too.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 18:27:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Aug 21 17:27:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Prohibition (Not on the TML, please)
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1029972649.2825.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B98978C6.6A989%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

This is not Traveller related.  Please post such material on TML-chat or
privately.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 18:30:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 21 17:30:14 2002
Subject: [TML] The cloak
In-Reply-To: <20020821233315.24425.57466.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17hfQ5-0004PY-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

"THOMAS BARNES" <twb3@charter.net> wrote:
>
> Just as with clothing, some will slavishy adhere to the 
> popular trends (fashion update from Capital: brow ridges 
> are IN, and last year's big biceps are OUT among the smart 
> set at court this season...), while others will appear as 
> they damned well please.  Iconoclasts may well eschew ANY 
> body modification, at least until "the natrual look" holds 
> fashion sway.

Yes, most definitely.  In the TU, even humans of purely Solomani 
ancestry are likely to look notably different that people today. In 
some cases, the difference will be fairly subtle, but the population 
of any universe where most worlds have had access to TL 11+ 
biosculpture for more than a thousand of years is going to have 
some visible differences from 20th century humans.
 
> If you really want to stand out in the crowd, you may well 
> have to do something that borders on the medically 
> unethical. 

You just reminded me of the fairly squicky scene in Iain M. Banks' 
wonderful novel _The Use of Weapons_, where the protagonist is 
invited to a party where most of the people there have artificially 
created and medically safe injuries that will be corrected after the 
party is over.  I could easily see such things going on in the Soc 
10+ set on many dozens of worlds TL 13+.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com  

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 18:33:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Aug 21 17:33:16 2002
Subject: [TML] OT and TML-Chat
In-Reply-To: <m3fzx7ixhn.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <B9897D25.6A994%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/21/02 4:49 PM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> Listmom <listmom@travellercentral.com> writes:
>>=20
>> This topic, being unrelated to Traveller, has been moved to
>> TML-chat.
>=20
> Once again, I'd like to point out that this is why I opposed TML-chat
> and oppose it still.


That's fine.=20

But you're not the one who gets the complaints about off topic posts, or th=
e
suggestions on who to ban from the list.

I do not want to be in the business of either censoring posts or banning
people.  But I respect the subscribers who are on this list because they ar=
e
interested in Traveller and don't want to have their email clogged with off
topic, and frequently irritating posts.

This is the Traveller Mailing lists, not talk.politics.guns or alt.drugs.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 18:36:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mole)
Date: Wed Aug 21 17:36:20 2002
Subject: [TML] drugs & Role Playing
In-Reply-To: <B989759C.6A982%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B9897ACA.C90D%mole@solsec.org>

on 8/21/02 4:51 PM, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:

> On occasion, I'll have a drink while GMing.  But since it tends to make me
> sleepy, I usually don't because my players complain if I end a game early
> because I'm tired.  Players are a demanding lot.  Mine seem to think my
> whole reason form existence is to entertain them.
> 

You mean it isn't ???!!?? ;)

-- 
Mole


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 18:39:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Wed Aug 21 17:39:12 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast
References: <20020821193236.e83193832f294d27a20cd4e103ed85d5.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <3D643033.2040202@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Cheng Tseng wrote:
>>http://www.vickivt.com/vicki/v02173.htm Hey, only 795K
>>
>>I think the Goose is one of the prettiest planes ever made.
>>
>>(Then, I'm weird, I also think that a C130 is a handsome aircraft...)
> 
> 
> So, what do you think of the appearance of the Gannett AEW?

I think the doctors told that aircraft's parents that the twins were too 
  throughly conjoined for separation surgery to be successful, and that 
they should just love them while they had them...;-)

http://www.shoal.net.au/~anam/gallery/nseries/gannet/ganet8.html

Air and Space mag had an article about 'The Ugliest Aircraft in the 
World' some years back, I'll see if I still have the issue about.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 18:42:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Aug 21 17:42:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
Message-ID: <200208220006.NHB03107@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>Which led to the development of the claymore mine and the 
>reintroduction of canister ammunition for artillery.


And now this thread has come full circle - from sniper with 
one shot to a 155mm Beehive round on muzzle action.

Another thread?
________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 18:47:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Aug 21 17:47:17 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020821195048.e622139a7bf04f878bbb71d8c2613404.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <3D64D7E7.6032.BA3BB3@localhost>

On 21 Aug 2002 at 19:52, Cheng Tseng wrote:

> >I do not think a vessel so heavily speed optimised, and so relatively 
> >un-protected can be classed as a battleship. Fast battleship in the 
> >British or Japanese sense maybe.
> 
> So went the argument.  I disagree, and I also believe you really can not say
> the KONGOs were any type of battleships.  They were battlecruisers with
> fancy dressings on them.

I don't think they were, actually. They were battlecruisers, end of 
story. I just feel that while the Iowas were (and are) fine ships, they 
weren't the utlimate in battleships, like many people (especially in 
the US) seem to think they were. I'm willing to consider them fast 
battleships, in the same way the Queen Marys were. In fact the Iowas 
specifications look very like a huge WWI British Dreatnaughts - enough 
armour to con the buyer into believing they're a battleship, big sexy 
guns and a very big powerplant.
 
> One can also ask what the 10,000 extra tons in a BISMARCK went, compared to
> a RICHILIEU or JEAN BART.

Protection, for what good it did (and having a tradional turret 
layout).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 18:51:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 21 17:51:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Hairline
Message-ID: <a3.2d43180c.2a958e6f@aol.com>

>Come to think of it - how many Traveller PCs suffer from middle aged spread,
>or, if male, receding hairlines, and all the other stuff that makes life at
>forty+ interesting?

The worst part is the occasional stabing pains in my knee joints (for no 
apparant reason), but a close second is the crackly sound my back makes when 
I get out of bed. Even though I'm not actually going bald, the hair on my 
head is thinning, and seems to be sliding off the top down the sides (some of 
it sticking in my ears on the way down) and settling on my back.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 18:54:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shane Slamet)
Date: Wed Aug 21 17:54:23 2002
Subject: [TML] drugs & Role Playing
References: <B989759C.6A982%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <00b801c24975$4d52aba0$9307b286@Shane>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> > As a matter of interest, how many listmembers like to drink, smoke or
use
> > some other psychotropic substance while role-playing?
> >
> > Most people think I don't drink at all, because I don't mix alcohol with
> > role-playing.
>
> On occasion, I'll have a drink while GMing.  But since it tends to make me
> sleepy, I usually don't because my players complain if I end a game early
> because I'm tired.  Players are a demanding lot.  Mine seem to think my
> whole reason form existence is to entertain them.

I know entirely what you mean, on both counts.  I'll sometimes have a beer
or two when its on offer, but trying to bash out a climactic scene while
tired and headachey doesn't work.  Now as to marijuana.. I could barely
imagine trying to run a game after a few cones:

GM: "...and so the holo-recording switches off and the two SuSag reps turn
to look at you."
P1: "Uhm.. Cool.  What were we doing again?"
P2: "We were playing Traveller, man."
P1: "No, I mean what were we doing in the game?"
GM: <puzzled and suddenly vague> "What game?"
P3: "There was this game, these guys were playing in the bar. Vilani chess
or something. I think that's what he's talking about."
P1: "No I mean...like... in-character?"
P4: <giggling uncontrollably> "In who's character?"
GM: "I forget. You freaks are all loopy anyway." <shrugs> "Who's hungry?"
_____________________
Shane K. Slamet --- I was gonna make the jump calculations, then I got high.
s.slamet@bom.gov.au == or == entropicana@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 18:57:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Wed Aug 21 17:57:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Drug (flame) wars
Message-ID: <20020822004814.75057.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
With all the information about LSD, I am stunned to
hear something so amazingly naive.  The drug serves no
useful purpose (Which annoys the efficiency part in
me.) and the dangers are well known.  But you 
apparently can not make a judgement call on a person
trying to take the drug.
END QUOTE

I just want to say a few things. Alchohol and tobacco
are harmful (if over used) like most other drugs. But
most people would not want to ban them. However people
can still get banned drugs if they want too. So the
only thing banning drugs does is force people to use
criminal means to obtain them. This is true for pretty
much anything that is banned by a governement, in
Australia it is very hard to obtain a semi-automatic
hand gun legally. The result is a huge swell in
illegal hand gun imports. The point is if people want
it they will get it. So society and government should
look at was of removing the desire (like poverty,
discontent etc) for harmful items prosecution of users
does nothing but lock them into the cycle of poverty
and dependance (try getting a job with a drugs
conviction). And I don't support the right to bare
arms either, sure you can have a gun if your a farmer
or a sports shooter. But I don't like the idea that I
have to carry a weapon to protect myself from fellow
citizens. Again this is a case where the cause of a
disease should be fought not the symptoms. However
this should be taken off list as it is OT.

ObTrav: What if one PC tries to smuggle caffeine on to
a planet with out telling the others. Only to find
that the four hundred cans of HavaCola where consumed
in flight!

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://digital.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Digital How To
- Get the best out of your PC!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 19:01:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 21 18:01:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Enemy at the Gates
Message-ID: <c8.2bc97093.2a9591a7@aol.com>

>Watched it the other day...my wife was astounded at the Soviets handing 
>out a rifle and a clip to every other guy, then just a clip to the next.


A slight exageration for efect, but they were that desperate in other places 
. . . Leningrad springs to mind. REmember the scene in GETTYSBURG when Jeff 
Daniels gets some extra men, orders the sgt to give them rifles, is told 
there are no more rifles, and grimly says: "Wait here . . . there will be 
rifles available in a litle while."

They certainly got the desperation factor down with the Soviets during 
the battle of Stalingrad.

I just didn't remember Kruschev being in charge there...

He was a Zampolit (political officer) during the battle. Accounts differ of 
his performance, but some Zampolits behaved with great bravery.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 19:03:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Aug 21 18:03:39 2002
Subject: [TML] describing appearances quickly
Message-ID: <20020822005606.45874.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com>

What do people look like in the Far Future?  More importantly, what
shorthand will people use to describe each other, especially in
police emergency situations (yes, like those in my current campaign)?

For example, I once called the police as I watched a car stop in
front of my house, from which a man tried to run, and two other men
got out, caught the first one, and started punching him in the
stomach.  The first question asked by the dispatcher was:  what race
are they?  Saying "human" would not have helped the dispatcher at
all.  (As it was, it was so dark that I could only state that they
were neither dark-skinned black men, nor blond.)  

"Race" in biology means a subspecies in which some percentage of the
members are readily distinguishable from non-members of that
subspecies.  When we apply the term to humans, we use it as a sort
socially agreed shorthand to mean a typical set of identifying
physical characteristics, primarily skin color, hair color and type,
and eye color, but also the proportions of facial features and
general body size.  Location is a factor -- the San Francisco area's
social agreement about races is probably different than Rio de
Janeiro's or Singapore's.  

So, that leads me to a several questions.  How long did it take for
the races now generally recognized on Terra to develop?  The many
human races (Vilani, Zhodani, Geonee, etc.) scattered about this area
300,000 years ago have apparently had sufficient time to form
identifiable subspecies.  Some scholarly reading on the internet
suggests the current races developed over 100,000 years ago.  

Will the Terran races homogenize, and to what exent, during the
Interstellar Wars as travel on Terra becomes cheaper and easier, and
as the world tries to form a somewhat more cohesive, unitary,
culture?  Some racial and ethnic groups do leave Terra to establish
worlds where they can keep their own unique cultures -- the Turks of
Nomads of the World's Ocean and the Finns of The Turku Wastes come to
mind (and let's not forget Remulak).  

So what does a citizen on Regina in 1111 say when she's calling in a
crime:  "yes, there are five of them, just trashing that Quickie Mart
-- two Vargr and three humans -- the Vargr are both Gveghs, for sure,
that brown fur is unmistakeable -- but the humans -- I dunno -- the
major human races all look alike to me --"

What do you think?

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 19:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Aug 21 18:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT and TML-Chat
In-Reply-To: <B9897D25.6A994%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B9897D25.6A994%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m3ofbvhfgu.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> 
> But you're not the one who gets the complaints about off topic
> posts, or the suggestions on who to ban from the list.

People who complain to the listmaster about what other people write
should get lives or get off the list.  There's plenty of stuff I don't
like; I either post a counterargument or ignore the whole thing.

> But I respect the subscribers who are on this list because they are
> interested in Traveller and don't want to have their email clogged
> with off topic, and frequently irritating posts.

That's what the delete, score and filter functions of one's mailer are
for.  Whining is for, well, whiners.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
All words have not a single meaning but a swarm of them, like bees
around a hive.  And like that swarm, changing its position
ever-so-slightly with each wingbeat, the word's meanings change a little
with each use upon the tongue or the page.             --Maureen O'Brien

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 19:10:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Wed Aug 21 18:10:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: drugs
References: <sd63a5d6.022@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>
Message-ID: <00cf01c24978$006c5cc0$38d7f6d1@customer>

I agree with this statement wholeheartedly.

John Scarlett
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff D. Greenly" <jgreenly@hsc.wvu.edu>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 2:38 PM
Subject: [TML] Re: drugs


> As much as I find this particular thread VERY interesting, and inasmuch
> as I have been sorely tempted to really flame some folks here for their
> shortsightedness but have held my tongue in my head out of respect for
> others, could we perhaps find a home for this thread off the TML?
>
> Jeff
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 19:14:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Wed Aug 21 18:14:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Crematory Diamonds
References: <m3ofbwuom1.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> <5.1.0.14.2.20020821122511.009f2a70@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <00f801c24978$c7e6f3a0$38d7f6d1@customer>

I've thought about doing that myself.  How does one go about ensuring their
body ends up where they want it to?

John Scarlett
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Berry" <gridlore@mindspring.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 3:26 PM
Subject: RE: [TML] Crematory Diamonds


> At 01:20 PM 8/21/02 -0400, you wrote:
> >What kind of gem would a penguin become?
>
> You ain't finding out from *this* penguin.  Because if I fail in my bid
for
> immortality, my body is being dumped on the body farm for research.
>
> --
>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
>    http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/
>
> Death is an experience best avoided, as it makes
> reliable internet access difficult to obtain.
>                         - Xaonon, in alt.atheism
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 19:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ken Hagler)
Date: Wed Aug 21 18:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <3D64D7E7.6032.BA3BB3@localhost>
Message-ID: <B9898A21.5DBBE%khagler@orange-road.com>

on 8/21/2002 5:24 PM, Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> story. I just feel that while the Iowas were (and are) fine ships, they
> weren't the utlimate in battleships, like many people (especially in
> the US) seem to think they were.

Well, for the US they really were the ultimate battleships. If you consider
service life, rather than construction date, that was also true worldwide.

Anyone know what was the last battleship launched?

> In fact the Iowas
> specifications look very like a huge WWI British Dreatnaughts - enough
> armour to con the buyer into believing they're a battleship, big sexy
> guns and a very big powerplant.

Do you mean "WWI British battlecruisers?" That sounds like them, sort of...
-- 
                              Ken Hagler

|          ICQ#: 34591293         |   For PGP key send mail with  |
|   http://www.orange-road.com/   |    subject "Send PGP Key".    |
|   And tho' we are not now that strength which in old days       |
|   Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are --Tennyson  |


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 19:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed Aug 21 18:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Hairline
Message-ID: <20020822012518.94155.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com>

>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com

>The worst part is the occasional stabing pains in my knee joints 
>(for no apparant reason), but a close second is the crackly sound my
>back makes when I get out of bed. 

As they say, at my age, if I don't wake up with some pain, I check
for a pulse.

--Glenn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 19:29:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 21 18:29:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Old RICE Papers for use as "Landgrabs"
Message-ID: <OF54C96C36.FF09F54B-ONCA256C1D.0004EDF5-CA256C1D.00074746@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Jeff Z wrote:
>>For those interested in claiming worlds for the Landgrab, here is a list 

>>of worlds that have been documented as RICE Papers - that is, for TNE.
>
>If you can point me to a URI, and if the respective authors will give
>permission, I'll snarf them, convert them to HTML, and post them to the
>RICE Archives at Freelance Traveller.

I'll have to zip them up and send them over.

>Incidentally, the original idea for numbering the RICE Papers was...

...too hard for my poor brain to keep track of. Plus, I kept all updates 
in the one file anyway, so updates were not an issue. If authors had 
changes subsequent to the original post, I appended them as a new post, 
switched Revision Mode on, went back up to the original post, made the 
changes, then switched Revision off again. Result is that you can see both 
the original and changed text - not suitable for publication until you 
"Accept" all the revisions, of course, but it was OK for my purposes.

Instead, I simply used the hex location for numbering. That way, they all 
sort themselves out quite nicely. The only problem was what to do with 
subsequent no-world-writeup papers about the same location - such as the 
Jewell Cup. As you can see, I only partially solved it by appending a 
letter.  %-(  (Which will probably work OK; I've NEVER seen more than 26 
papers on the same place!! ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 19:32:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Wed Aug 21 18:32:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Damned Silly Questions
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020821195824.022de008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <017901c2497b$c2035ac0$38d7f6d1@customer>

I've had the same problem and have the same request.  Thanks in advance

jlscarlett@earthlink.net

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Urbin" <eclipse@urbin.net>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>; <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 7:59 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Damned Silly Questions


> At 11:06 AM 8/21/2002 -0400, Damage169@cs.com wrote:
> >John Groth writes:
> > > >Can you imagine the Hello Kitty?  Required ship's uniform includes
> > > >bow clips for each ear. :)
> > >
> > > http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~jhoffa/fragments/hello.html
> > >
> > > ObTrav:  Ummm, powered armor...?
> > >
> >That is just incredibly wrong on so many levels...(sounds of harddrive
saving
> >picture) :)
> >
> >Doug Grimes
>
> Damn, the link is dead now!  Could somebody send the "Eville" picture off
list?
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
> "Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
> burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 19:35:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Aug 21 18:35:05 2002
Subject: [TML] The Drug Thread
In-Reply-To: <F137TXSRdZqou2Vythh0000060e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020821203414.00b25100@minn.net>

At 11:00 PM 8/21/2002 +0000, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>     In this vein, what topics would comprise be the "killer" TML thread?
>

Ditzie and Dulinor.  ;-)


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 19:37:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Wed Aug 21 18:37:55 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <3D64D504.21937.AEF50D@localhost>
Message-ID: <000001c2497c$1704ad30$6501a8c0@Darla>

> 
> I think you mean "would have..." in the case of the Montanas, seeing
as
> they were never build. As for the Yamoto, she had a narrow bow to try
> and get more speed from a hull that _had_ to be broad because of
> draught limitations due to having to be able to sail in the shallow
> waters around Japan. The IJN would've liked to have made her deeper
and
> faster (and with a deeper hull they could've done it on the same
> horsepower, and had more armour as well) so that she could've dictated
> the range - something very high on their list of priorities because of
> how badly the USN out numbered them.
> 
>

And of course the maximum beam of a USN battleship was constrained by
the Panama Canal...

TWB
 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 19:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Aug 21 18:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <200208220152.NHF01818@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Thomas Barnes says
>And of course the maximum beam of a USN battleship was 
>constrained by the Panama Canal...

There's a guy who has a web page that makes me wonder why 
he's not playing Traveller.

His web page has, among other things, a discussion about 
battleships not unlike the one we've been having here.

And he's a firearms aficionado...

And he's into astronomy...

In his travels, he's listed his Top Travel Destinations (a 
similar list should be made of the Spinward Marches - sort of 
a short digest of landgrabs).

http://www.chuckhawks.com/

________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 20:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Vickers)
Date: Wed Aug 21 19:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Returning from London + more
In-Reply-To: <F66Y1R5vdvW6KDDG5Dc0000e120@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAAKEMMDLAA.redroach@pobox.com>


     L.E. Whipsnade
     Third Hammock from the left
     Big Palm Tree by the lagoon
     The Isle of Yap


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

Larsen, What is the exchange rate on the Isle of Yap?
I have been wanting a vacation there, but was a bit intimidated by the
currency.
Will any large rock do?

TV


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 20:32:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug 21 19:32:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Crematory Diamonds
In-Reply-To: <00f801c24978$c7e6f3a0$38d7f6d1@customer>
References: <m3ofbwuom1.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020821122511.009f2a70@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020821191134.009ea250@mindspring.com>

At 09:10 PM 8/21/02 -0400, you wrote:
>I've thought about doing that myself.  How does one go about ensuring their
>body ends up where they want it to?

You have to contact them, and put it in your will.  Depending on the state, 
you might have to arrange to have your body shipped there.

They are opening new sites, to account for different climes.  Assuming a 
live a long time, I'll probably be dumped down a ravine in the 
Sierra-Nevada Mountians.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 20:35:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug 21 19:35:40 2002
Subject: [TML] drugs
In-Reply-To: <d.2bbf53b0.2a954327@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020821191344.009f5250@mindspring.com>

At 03:25 PM 8/21/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Not at all.  Firearms, smoking, fatty foods, etc. do not undermine judgement.

Do a web search on: Dan White, twinkie defense, Harvey Milk.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 20:38:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug 21 19:38:49 2002
Subject: [TML] drugs
In-Reply-To: <memo.36817@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020821191502.009ec150@mindspring.com>

At 12:05 AM 8/22/02 +0100, you wrote:
>In-Reply-To: <20020822073602.B17114@freeman.little-possums.net>
>As a matter of interest, how many listmembers like to drink, smoke or use
>some other psychotropic substance while role-playing?
>
>Most people think I don't drink at all, because I don't mix alcohol with
>role-playing.

I used to nurse a beer during RPG sessions.  Now, thanks to my Edsel of a 
body, I can drink one (1) beer a month.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 20:41:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug 21 19:41:49 2002
Subject: [TML] drugs & Role Playing
In-Reply-To: <00b801c24975$4d52aba0$9307b286@Shane>
References: <B989759C.6A982%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020821191637.009ec460@mindspring.com>

At 10:46 AM 8/22/02 +1000, you wrote:
>GM: "...and so the holo-recording switches off and the two SuSag reps turn
>to look at you."
>P1: "Uhm.. Cool.  What were we doing again?"
>P2: "We were playing Traveller, man."
>P1: "No, I mean what were we doing in the game?"
>GM: <puzzled and suddenly vague> "What game?"
>P3: "There was this game, these guys were playing in the bar. Vilani chess
>or something. I think that's what he's talking about."
>P1: "No I mean...like... in-character?"
>P4: <giggling uncontrollably> "In who's character?"
>GM: "I forget. You freaks are all loopy anyway." <shrugs> "Who's hungry?"

Read that with the following actors playing the roles:

GM: George Carlin
P1: Tommy Chong
P2: Cheech Martin
P3: Sean Penn
P4: Robin Williams

-- 

Douglas E. Berry         gridlore@mindspring.com
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
    http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"How am I supposed to hallucinate with all these
swirling colors in the way?"   - Lisa Simpson



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 20:44:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug 21 19:44:53 2002
Subject: [TML] OT and TML-Chat
In-Reply-To: <m3ofbvhfgu.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <B9897D25.6A994%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <B9897D25.6A994%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020821192107.00a06c80@mindspring.com>

At 07:03 PM 8/21/02 -0600, you wrote:
>That's what the delete, score and filter functions of one's mailer are
>for.  Whining is for, well, whiners.

P,K,B.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 20:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Aug 21 19:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT and TML-Chat
In-Reply-To: <m3ofbvhfgu.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <B9899B63.6A9C7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/21/02 6:03 PM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

>=20
> That's what the delete, score and filter functions of one's mailer are
> for.  Whining is for, well, whiners.

A fine sentiment, but as listmom I have to try to balance the wishes of all=
,
and thus no one is truly happy.  Care to take over?

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 20:50:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Wed Aug 21 19:50:49 2002
Subject: [TML] A question concerning TML-chat and topics
In-Reply-To: <20020821233315.24425.57466.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentr
 al.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020822034529.00a42330@mail.pi.se>

>Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 15:34:59 -0700
>Subject: Re: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
>From: Listmom <listmom@travellercentral.com>
>
>This topic, being unrelated to Traveller, has been moved to TML-chat.
>Please do not post non-Traveller material on the TML.

With no intention of disrespect of Listmom's thankless work, but the thread 
is a bit jumbled and it is a very early morning...

I wholeheartedly support the Listmom's valiant efforts in keeping the noise 
down - and I certainly have no problem with topics ending up on TML-chat - 
but I do not entirely understand which topic is unrelated to Traveller and 
is being moved, is it the one about drug legislation or is it the one about 
WW2 battleships/Grumman aerocraft? Both?

Is the TML-chat primarily intended to limit flame-wars or to keep the main 
list "on-topic"?

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 20:54:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug 21 19:54:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Returning from London + more
In-Reply-To: <F57THfyQgeDKvPEkGhA000002d6@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020821192337.00a06050@mindspring.com>

At 09:55 PM 8/21/02 +0200, you wrote:
>* Speaking of penguins I got my greedy hands on ACQ while in London. I 
>haven't had the possibility to try it out because my gaming group 
>emigrated south but it sure looks promising (I'm a big fan of Jagged 
>Alliance). I also got 101 Corporations, 101 Lifeforms and 101 Goverments. 
>I very impressed of the variaty in 101 Lifeforms.

Woo-Hoo!  I made another...

..damn, that was for love of the game.  Curses.

I hope you enjoy it.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 20:57:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug 21 19:57:36 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <m3fzx7ixhn.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <B98963A3.6A952%listmom@travellercentral.com>
 <B98963A3.6A952%listmom@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020821192631.009e54b0@mindspring.com>

At 05:49 PM 8/21/02 -0600, you wrote:
>Listmom <listmom@travellercentral.com> writes:
> >
> > This topic, being unrelated to Traveller, has been moved to
> > TML-chat.
>
>Once again, I'd like to point out that this is why I opposed TML-chat
>and oppose it still.

Fine.  Then we'll continue the off-topic discussion without you.  You don't 
have to point this out every time a thread moves there.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 21:00:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Vickers)
Date: Wed Aug 21 20:00:37 2002
Subject: [TML] drugs & Role Playing
In-Reply-To: <00b801c24975$4d52aba0$9307b286@Shane>
Message-ID: <KKENICJCCDOJKBPGKEAACEMNDLAA.redroach@pobox.com>

 Players are a demanding lot.  Mine seem to think my
> whole reason form existence is to entertain them.

Once in the late 80's our AD&D GM was duct taped to a plastic chair and
forced to run us for a weekend. He was finally cut free after the first few
hours and serious promises of bodily harm if he tried to climb out the
bathroom window.

TV


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 21:04:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Aug 21 20:04:05 2002
Subject: [TML] OT and TML-Chat
In-Reply-To: <B9899B63.6A9C7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B9899B63.6A9C7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m3bs7vha06.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> 
> A fine sentiment, but as listmom I have to try to balance the wishes
> of all, and thus no one is truly happy.  Care to take over?

Not really--you do a good, nay a great, job.

I just happen to disagree with your view on a certain subject, that's
all.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgement that
something else is more important than fear.'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 21:07:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Aug 21 20:07:03 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <000001c2497c$1704ad30$6501a8c0@Darla>
References: <000001c2497c$1704ad30$6501a8c0@Darla>
Message-ID: <1029985423.3d64548fa0f60@www.paradise.net.nz>

Quoting Thomas Barnes <twb3@charter.net>:

> And of course the maximum beam of a USN battleship was constrained by
> the Panama Canal...

Aside from the Montanas (which were designed without this limit) this wasn't a 
huge problem to most ships, especially once the USN switched to fast 
battleships. HMS Vanguard was shorter, only slightly wider and of about the 
same beam as the Iowas, and displaced about the same. Not going for that last 
little bit of speed allows a much fuller hull form. She also needed only about 
2/3rds the horsepower, and still did 29 knots.

-- 
Rupert Boleyn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 21:11:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Aug 21 20:11:04 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <F13480Gxw8Zw5V6Qcqn0000faa4@hotmail.com>

From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

     "I've seen some lovely pictures of the Iowas with green water back to 
the 'A' turret alongside a King George V class (IIRC) BB that was
nearly dry. I've also read accounts of them in comparison with HMS
Vangard, which was very dry."


Mr. Boleyn,

     Everything I've ever read about the KGV-class made them out to be very 
poor sailors, but as you said it's IIRC.
     I just finished reading "Death of the Scharnhorst" and the author goes 
into some detail about how poorly the "Duke of York" handled the weather 
during the battle.  She continually burrowed through heavy seas before and 
during the engagement.  Most of the small AA batteries and ventilators 
forward were carried away and a great deal of water sloshed about in her 
'tween decks.
     Despite all the poor decisions the Kreigsmarine made during 
Scharnhorst's last sortie and the RN's use of HF-DF and Enigma, because of 
the sea state and her superior hull form, she would have got away.  Except 
for that single 14" shell that is.  ;)


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 21:14:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Hamill)
Date: Wed Aug 21 20:14:14 2002
Subject: [TML] drugs
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020821191344.009f5250@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020822025037.13552.qmail@web21501.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> At 03:25 PM 8/21/02 -0400, you wrote:
> >Not at all.  Firearms, smoking, fatty foods, etc.
> do not undermine judgement.
> 
> Do a web search on: Dan White, twinkie defense,
> Harvey Milk.
> 
> --

There have been several studies that purport to show
that simply being in the vicinity of weapons leads to
changes in attitudes among young males. (Whether or
not they are poor science or politically correct hack
jobs is for you to decide)
As well as the studies showing how certain foods
actually increase a persons perception of their own
hunger, leading to overeating. 
And the studies of brain changes in smokers vs.
non-smokers are out there for you to research as well.

The twinkie defence just kills me though...:-)

John Hamill
jwdh71@yahoo.com 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 21:17:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Aug 21 20:17:22 2002
Subject: [TML] drugs & Role Playing
In-Reply-To: <00b801c24975$4d52aba0$9307b286@Shane>
References: <B989759C.6A982%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <00b801c24975$4d52aba0$9307b286@Shane>
Message-ID: <m3k7mjhadd.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Shane Slamet" <s.slamet@BoM.GOV.AU> writes:
>
> Now as to marijuana.. I could barely imagine trying to run a game
> after a few cones:

[snip]

ROTLMAO.

Didn't know dope came in cones.  Shows how hip I am...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
There has grown in the minds of certain groups in this country the
idea that just because a man or corporation has made a profit out of
the public for a number of years, the government and the courts are
charged with guaranteeing such profit in the future, even in the face
of changing circumstances and contrary to public interest.  This
strange doctrine is supported by neither statue or common law.  Neither
corporations or individuals have the right to come into court and ask
that the clock of history be stopped, or turned back.
                  --Robert Heinlein, Life Line, 1939

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 21:23:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Aug 21 20:23:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Returning from London + more
Message-ID: <F1478ucQqsXAsAUJE9w000136ac@hotmail.com>

From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@pobox.com>

     "Larsen, What is the exchange rate on the Isle of Yap?  I have been 
wanting a vacation there, but was a bit intimidated by the currency.  Will 
any large rock do?"


Mr. Vickers,

     The exchange rate makes Striker's Local vs. Imperial credit table look 
downright parsimonious.  Why with just the gravel found in my shoe I was 
able secure a 20 year lease on my hammock.
     Human teeth, gall stones, certain feathers, and secondhand skin all can 
be used as currency on this pleasent isle.  An acquaintenance, upon hearing 
that teeth were monetary units and with the help of a Swiss Army Knife and a 
carboy of industrial rubbing alcohol, was able to find the price of an 
entire village in his own mouth.  He now enjoys the lavish care of the 
comely native lasses, enjoying many of the delectable foodstuffs prepared 
for him, just as long as someone else chews it for him first.
     Goods and services on Yap are priced very differently then we are used 
to however.  Cable TV service cannot be had at any price and I have been 
forced to follow the collapse of the Red Sox via shortwave radio.
     On the other hand, I've rented a native hammock warmer for a 
surprisingly cheap rate.  For the price of one aggie, which I'm told her 
mother now uses as a false eye, Plupp-plupp will check my hammock for errant 
coconut crabs, scorpions, frigate birds, and court summons over the next 
calendar year.
     The following chart should give you some idea of the prices here:

     Penicillin - three metric tons of marble
     Native cure-all (alcoholic) - thimble of beach sand

     Bicycle - canoe full of obsidian
     Carried in palaquin by natives for one year - two catseye marbles

     One roll of bathroom tissue, quilted - geode size of a watermelon
     Human hand, still attached to native - 3 chert schists

     Barbarque, short pig - 30 kilos of mica discs
     Tartare, long pig - essentially free (maybe one bullet)

     As you can see, products of our industrial society are quite dear but 
human labor is rather cheap.
     My suggestion?  Get your shots, stop the mail, buy a ticket, and enjoy 
yourself!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 21:26:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Wed Aug 21 20:26:11 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <20020821230603.3332803dcc3c40a3b42445d2724b45c6.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>> That is the sacrifice you make with the "all or nothing" scheme. 
>> The bows and sterns are extremely vulnerable.  IIRC, there was
>> actually some concern about the bows of the IOWAs during WW2 when
>> 3rd/5th Fleet went through storms and heavy seas. 
>
>I've seen some lovely pictures of the Iowas with green water back to 
>the 'A' turret alongside a King George V class (IIRC) BB that was 
>nearly dry. I've also read accounts of them in comparison with HMS 
>Vangard, which was very dry.

That was something noticed on NATO exercises in the North Atlantic during
the early '50s, when both the IOWAs and the VANGUARD were in service.  The
IOWAs were extremely wet; the VANGUARD, even during rough seas were
generally dry.

Mind you, none of the IOWAs lost their bows to a storm like the heavy
cruiser PITTSBURGH did, but the sight of the them ploughing through waves
sometimes is enough to make you wonder if they prefer being underwater.

>> Even the heavier MONTANAs and the YAMATOs suffered from the same problem
>> (The Japanese tried to dodge around the issue by making the ships very
broad.).

>I think you mean "would have..." in the case of the Montanas, seeing as 
>they were never build. As for the Yamoto, she had a narrow bow to try 
>and get more speed from a hull that _had_ to be broad because of 
>draught limitations due to having to be able to sail in the shallow 
>waters around Japan. The IJN would've liked to have made her deeper and 
>faster (and with a deeper hull they could've done it on the same 
>horsepower, and had more armour as well) so that she could've dictated 
>the range - something very high on their list of priorities because of 
>how badly the USN out numbered them.

Well, the YAMATOs actually had some limitations on tonnage and displacement.
They could not get too much larger then they already were.  As if were, they
were broad because if they lined the powerplants and drives the regular
arrangement (In tandem) instead of how they did it (side by side.), they
would have been forced to put more armor then even they would have allowed,
or spread the armor out so much it would be too thin.

C.T.


"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 21:29:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Wed Aug 21 20:29:11 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast
Message-ID: <20020821230947.6aae110d3ce14e25a1249a404eb63785.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>>>(Then, I'm weird, I also think that a C130 is a handsome aircraft...)
>> 
>> 
>> So, what do you think of the appearance of the Gannett AEW?
>
>I think the doctors told that aircraft's parents that the twins were too 
>  throughly conjoined for separation surgery to be successful, and that 
>they should just love them while they had them...;-)
>
>http://www.shoal.net.au/~anam/gallery/nseries/gannet/ganet8.html
>
>Air and Space mag had an article about 'The Ugliest Aircraft in the 
>World' some years back, I'll see if I still have the issue about.

That is what you get when the design team decides to hold the office
Christmas Party just before they decided on where to place the
contra-rotating propellers.

C.T.


"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 21:32:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Aug 21 20:32:19 2002
Subject: [TML] drugs
Message-ID: <200208220255.NHH01912@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry says
>I used to nurse a beer during RPG sessions.  Now, thanks to 
>my Edsel of a body, I can drink one (1) beer a month.

Now, is this all because we used to run past the radar units 
at Campbell Army Airfield, or is there something about 
burning oil, or am I imagining things....
________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 21:35:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Aug 21 20:35:35 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <B9898A21.5DBBE%khagler@orange-road.com>
References: <B9898A21.5DBBE%khagler@orange-road.com>
Message-ID: <1029985133.3d64536d8a6de@www.paradise.net.nz>

Quoting Ken Hagler <khagler@orange-road.com>:

> on 8/21/2002 5:24 PM, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> > story. I just feel that while the Iowas were (and are) fine ships,
> they
> > weren't the utlimate in battleships, like many people (especially in
> > the US) seem to think they were.
> 
> Well, for the US they really were the ultimate battleships. If you
> consider
> service life, rather than construction date, that was also true
> worldwide.

I think I'd rather have been on the USS Washington than the USS Iowa in a real 
dust-up, especially in bad weather.

> Anyone know what was the last battleship launched?

HMS Vanguard, IIRC.
 
> > In fact the Iowas
> > specifications look very like a huge WWI British Dreatnaughts -
> enough
> > armour to con the buyer into believing they're a battleship, big sexy
> > guns and a very big powerplant.
> 
> Do you mean "WWI British battlecruisers?" That sounds like them, sort
> of...

Nope - they were even more that way. British ships, from HMS Dreadnaught on 
were fairly lightly armoured by other navies' (or the RN's pre-dreadnaught) 
standards.

-- 
Rupert Boleyn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 21:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Wed Aug 21 20:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <20020821231938.faf5cbf0cad647518c473ee2f25491b8.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>> So went the argument.  I disagree, and I also believe you really can not say
>> the KONGOs were any type of battleships.  They were battlecruisers with
>> fancy dressings on them.
>
>I don't think they were, actually. They were battlecruisers, end of 
>story. I just feel that while the Iowas were (and are) fine ships, they 
>weren't the utlimate in battleships, like many people (especially in 
>the US) seem to think they were. I'm willing to consider them fast 
>battleships, in the same way the Queen Marys were. In fact the Iowas 
>specifications look very like a huge WWI British Dreatnaughts - enough 
>armour to con the buyer into believing they're a battleship, big sexy 
>guns and a very big powerplant.

Actually, I tend to relate the IOWAs better to the QUEEN ELIZABETHs.  They
were faster then others of their types and they could also take a pounding
while handing one out.  Unless they engaged another IOWA, they could have
withstood damage from any other battleship other then a YAMATO, and for a
YAMATO, an IOWA would an excellent opportunity even then.
 
>> One can also ask what the 10,000 extra tons in a BISMARCK went, compared to
>> a RICHILIEU or JEAN BART.
>
>Protection, for what good it did (and having a tradional turret 
>layout).

Yeah, the BISMARCK's armor was impressive, but the design was bad.  Nautical
engineering was not exactly Germany's strong point.

C.T.


"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 21:41:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Wed Aug 21 20:41:55 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <20020821231550.c7c4703a38be488ab97c4aa7ffae7a1e.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>on 8/21/2002 5:24 PM, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>
>> story. I just feel that while the Iowas were (and are) fine ships, they
>> weren't the utlimate in battleships, like many people (especially in
>> the US) seem to think they were.
>
>Well, for the US they really were the ultimate battleships. If you consider
>service life, rather than construction date, that was also true worldwide.
>
>Anyone know what was the last battleship launched?

HMS VANGUARD.  Actually, something of a waste really.  An excuse to drag out
the 15" turrets they stored from when they converted the three "light"
battlecruisers into aircraft carriers.

She would have beaten KENTUCKY, which probably would have gone to sea if the
war had lasted a year longer (Supposedly the battleship was a pet project of
Ernie King's.)

C.T.


"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 21:45:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Wed Aug 21 20:45:00 2002
Subject: [TML] A question concerning TML-chat and topics
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020822034529.00a42330@mail.pi.se>
Message-ID: <B989A7B9.6A9E2%listmom@travellercentral.com>

on 8/21/02 7:35 PM, Tyge Sj=F6strand at tyge.sjostrand@pi.se wrote:

>=20
> With no intention of disrespect of Listmom's thankless work, but the thre=
ad
> is a bit jumbled and it is a very early morning...
>=20
> I wholeheartedly support the Listmom's valiant efforts in keeping the noi=
se
> down - and I certainly have no problem with topics ending up on TML-chat =
-
> but I do not entirely understand which topic is unrelated to Traveller an=
d
> is being moved, is it the one about drug legislation or is it the one abo=
ut
> WW2 battleships/Grumman aerocraft? Both?
>=20

There are really (in my mind, at least) three categories of topics on the
TML.
1. Directly Traveller Related
2. Not really Traveller Related, except in an oblique way
3. Not related to Traveller and likely to offend and/or irritate many list
members

Items in the second category, I usually let ruin their course unless someon=
e
complains.  Often times these circle back to Traveller.

Items in the third category include things like gun control, drugs, politic=
s
etc that have no place on the main list and often turn into flame wars.
Since I don't like to censor people, I tend to just suggest they move it
over to the TML-chat list, which is an open forum.

> Is the TML-chat primarily intended to limit flame-wars or to keep the mai=
n
> list "on-topic"?

A little of both.


--=20
listmom@travellercentral.com
for list information see
http://lists.travellercentral.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 21:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Wed Aug 21 20:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <20020821233151.ce24e9b46e8c492b8257de7dd4438600.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>Quoting Thomas Barnes <twb3@charter.net>:
>
>> And of course the maximum beam of a USN battleship was constrained by
>> the Panama Canal...
>
>Aside from the Montanas (which were designed without this limit) this wasn't a 
>huge problem to most ships, especially once the USN switched to fast 
>battleships. HMS Vanguard was shorter, only slightly wider and of about the 
>same beam as the Iowas, and displaced about the same. Not going for that last 
>little bit of speed allows a much fuller hull form. She also needed only about 
>2/3rds the horsepower, and still did 29 knots.

The horsepower curve for each additional knot of speed for a ship is
impressive, so say the least.  At the higher end, the power requirements are
obscene.  (Just jumping from 21 knots - the standard top speed of American
battleships before the NORTH CAROLINAs - to 26.5 knots of the NAGATO would
have required a nearly 140% more horsepower per shaft.)

C.T.


"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 21:50:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Aug 21 20:50:54 2002
Subject: [TML] A question concerning TML-chat and topics
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020822034529.00a42330@mail.pi.se>
References: <5.1.1.6.0.20020822034529.00a42330@mail.pi.se>
Message-ID: <m37kijh9yo.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tyge Sjstrand <tyge.sjostrand@pi.se> writes:
> 
> Is the TML-chat primarily intended to limit flame-wars or to keep
> the main list "on-topic"?

As far as I can tell, it is meant to be invoked when a poster dislikes
a thread.  Why he doesn't just kill the thread is beyond my limited
capacity to understand.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
There is a strong tendency in the USA to equate democracy with freedom,
and to describe our system of government as a democracy.  I consider
these commonly-believed fallacies two of the clearer failures of the
public school system (or successes, if you want to subscribe to paranoid
conspiracy theories).                                --Brandon Blackmoor

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 21:53:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug 21 20:53:43 2002
Subject: [TML] A quick note
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020821194903.009f5270@mindspring.com>

I've been taken off the Outrim Void p[roject for reasons that I shall not 
discuss.  The book will come out, but the bulk of it will be handled by 
another writer (I have no idea who at this point.)

To everyone who lent advice and help, thank you.

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 21:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Aug 21 20:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020821231550.c7c4703a38be488ab97c4aa7ffae7a1e.in@keywest.kennett.net>
References: <20020821231550.c7c4703a38be488ab97c4aa7ffae7a1e.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <1029988651.3d64612be2778@www.paradise.net.nz>

Quoting Cheng Tseng <cxt217@kennett.net>:

> HMS VANGUARD. Actually, something of a waste really. An excuse to drag
> out
> the 15" turrets they stored from when they converted the three "light"
> battlecruisers into aircraft carriers.
> 
> She would have beaten KENTUCKY, which probably would have gone to sea if
> the
> war had lasted a year longer (Supposedly the battleship was a pet
> project of
> Ernie King's.)

Well she was started at a time when it looked possible to finish her in a 
useful time-frame. And she was probably one of the best BB designs ever - fast, 
well balanced and a good sea boat.

-- 
Rupert Boleyn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 22:03:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Aug 21 21:03:52 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020821231938.faf5cbf0cad647518c473ee2f25491b8.in@keywest.kennett.net>
References: <20020821231938.faf5cbf0cad647518c473ee2f25491b8.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <1029988892.3d64621c7d7eb@www.paradise.net.nz>

Quoting Cheng Tseng <cxt217@kennett.net>:

> Actually, I tend to relate the IOWAs better to the QUEEN ELIZABETHs.

That's the class I meant. My reference referred to them as the Queen Mary class.

> They
> were faster then others of their types and they could also take a
> pounding
> while handing one out. Unless they engaged another IOWA, they could
> have
> withstood damage from any other battleship other then a YAMATO, and for
> a
> YAMATO, an IOWA would an excellent opportunity even then.

Only because of the radar based fire control. Speed is only useful if there's a 
range band in which you're superior to the enemy, and the Iowa's had no such 
tactical option vs the Yamotos. It'd be luck that gave them the match, IMO.

> Yeah, the BISMARCK's armor was impressive, but the design was bad.
> Nautical
> engineering was not exactly Germany's strong point.

That was largely the result of not having been able to build large warships 
post WWI - the Bismark had way too many out-dated WWI design features.

-- 
Rupert Boleyn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 22:07:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Aug 21 21:07:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Killer Thread
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020821203414.00b25100@minn.net>
References: <F137TXSRdZqou2Vythh0000060e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020821230750.00b2be50@minn.net>

At 08:34 PM 8/21/2002 -0500, Leslie Bates wrote:

>At 11:00 PM 8/21/2002 +0000, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>
>>     In this vein, what topics would comprise be the "killer" TML thread?
>>
>
>Ditzie and Dulinor.  ;-)

Dennis and Ditzie were on the observation deck of the Capital Highport.

"That was very nice of Archduke Dulinor to have given us a lift to Capital
on his flagship."

"Yes, Uncle Dennis, it was."


Les <With a big evil grin>



==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 22:13:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Aug 21 21:13:09 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <1029988651.3d64612be2778@www.paradise.net.nz>
Message-ID: <B989B2C8.6AA02%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/21/02 8:57 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:

>> HMS VANGUARD. Actually, something of a waste really. An excuse to drag
>> out
>> the 15" turrets they stored from when they converted the three "light"
>> battlecruisers into aircraft carriers.
>>=20
>=20
> Well she was started at a time when it looked possible to finish her in a
> useful time-frame. And she was probably one of the best BB designs ever -
> fast,=20
> well balanced and a good sea boat.

Except of course that by that time, the battleship's day was past.

Now relate this to Traveller.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 22:15:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Aug 21 21:15:55 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <F13480Gxw8Zw5V6Qcqn0000faa4@hotmail.com>
References: <F13480Gxw8Zw5V6Qcqn0000faa4@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <1029989567.3d6464bf74d5a@www.paradise.net.nz>

Quoting "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>:

> Mr. Boleyn,
> 
>  Everything I've ever read about the KGV-class made them out to be very
> 
> poor sailors, but as you said it's IIRC.

And I've just done some more reading, and it would appear that in this I was 
mistaken.

>  I just finished reading "Death of the Scharnhorst" and the author goes
> 
> into some detail about how poorly the "Duke of York" handled the weather
> 
> during the battle. She continually burrowed through heavy seas before
> and 
> during the engagement. Most of the small AA batteries and ventilators 
> forward were carried away and a great deal of water sloshed about in her
> 
> 'tween decks.
>  Despite all the poor decisions the Kreigsmarine made during 
> Scharnhorst's last sortie and the RN's use of HF-DF and Enigma, because
> of 
> the sea state and her superior hull form, she would have got away.
> Except 
> for that single 14" shell that is. ;)

And a bunch of torpedo hits from destroyers (or "why you should never send you 
destroyer screen home"), and an 8" shell or two killing her radar system.

-- 
Rupert Boleyn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 22:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Aug 21 21:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <B989B2C8.6AA02%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <1029988651.3d64612be2778@www.paradise.net.nz>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020821232340.00b229c0@minn.net>

At 09:12 PM 8/21/2002 -0700, Tod Glenn wrote:
>on 8/21/02 8:57 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:
>
>>> HMS VANGUARD. Actually, something of a waste really. An excuse to drag
>>> out
>>> the 15" turrets they stored from when they converted the three "light"
>>> battlecruisers into aircraft carriers.
>>> 
>> 
>> Well she was started at a time when it looked possible to finish her in a
>> useful time-frame. And she was probably one of the best BB designs ever -
>> fast, 
>> well balanced and a good sea boat.
>
>Except of course that by that time, the battleship's day was past.
>
>Now relate this to Traveller.

How did re-contact by the Imperium affect surface warship development on Ruie?


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 22:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Aug 21 21:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <B989B2C8.6AA02%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B989B2C8.6AA02%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <1029990804.3d6469947deee@www.paradise.net.nz>

Quoting Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>:

> on 8/21/02 8:57 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:
> 
> >> HMS VANGUARD. Actually, something of a waste really. An excuse to
> drag
> >> out
> >> the 15" turrets they stored from when they converted the three
> "light"
> >> battlecruisers into aircraft carriers.
> >> 
> > 
> > Well she was started at a time when it looked possible to finish her
> in a
> > useful time-frame. And she was probably one of the best BB designs
> ever -
> > fast, 
> > well balanced and a good sea boat.
> 
> Except of course that by that time, the battleship's day was past.

Hmm. It certainly applies to TL-11 missile boats when they run into Tl-12 
capital ships with spinal meson guns.

-- 
Rupert Boleyn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 22:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Wed Aug 21 21:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LLellewyloly q&a
Message-ID: <3D646CB7.9F357DF6@mail.cswnet.com>

Humans and LLellewyloly have been around for centeries on Junidy.
According to one article I've read, Humans experimented on Dandies in
the late 600's/early 700's. In another article I've read, Dandies are a
non-space faring race, only up to TL3. Then I read that in the early
1100's Dandies and Humans are having problems. 

Question One:
So the Dandies have a big revolution in the 600/700 over human
experimentation, but they NEVER progressed in TL?

Question Two:
If the humans didn't like the Dandies, why bother with the atmospheric
experimentation?

Question Three:
Somewhat related to Question One, MT suggests that Dandies have a space
farring rebel group to oppose the humans. How did they get this if there
still at TL3?

Question Four:
What, if anything, does canon have to say about LLellewyloly space
flight capability? [I don't have and don't know if there is anything
about this in the Traveller Adventure or Alien Realms but I suspect
their is something there].

Befuddlled :\
Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 23:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Aug 21 22:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020821192631.009e54b0@mindspring.com>
References: <B98963A3.6A952%listmom@travellercentral.com>
 <B98963A3.6A952%listmom@travellercentral.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020821192631.009e54b0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <m3lm6zfpow.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:
>
> > Once again, I'd like to point out that this is why I opposed
> > TML-chat and oppose it still.
> 
> Fine.  Then we'll continue the off-topic discussion without you.
> You don't have to point this out every time a thread moves there.

No--I just want to.  I trust that this last, small, insignificant
liberty is still allowed.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Canada's 4 seasons, of course, being Almost Winter, Winter, Still
Winter, and Construction.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 21 23:11:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Wed Aug 21 22:11:03 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <20020822010803.2a2d31c4def440b194d67cddfa21ec09.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>>  Everything I've ever read about the KGV-class made them out to be very
>> 
>> poor sailors, but as you said it's IIRC.
>
>And I've just done some more reading, and it would appear that in this I was 
>mistaken.

Another thing about the KGV was the technical limitations the Royal Navy had
to work with building the class.  Grazke and Dulin had a little note on how
frustrated Admiral John Tovey (?), the CinC Home Fleet, and his officers was
when the NORTH CAROLINA was assigned to the fleet and they compared her with
KGV.  Among other things, the US used higher-pressure, higher-efficiency
boilers.

>>  I just finished reading "Death of the Scharnhorst" and the author goes
>> 
>> into some detail about how poorly the "Duke of York" handled the weather
>> 
>> during the battle. She continually burrowed through heavy seas before
>> and 
>> during the engagement. Most of the small AA batteries and ventilators 
>> forward were carried away and a great deal of water sloshed about in her
>> 
>> 'tween decks.
>>  Despite all the poor decisions the Kreigsmarine made during 
>> Scharnhorst's last sortie and the RN's use of HF-DF and Enigma, because
>> of 
>> the sea state and her superior hull form, she would have got away.
>> Except 
>> for that single 14" shell that is. ;)
>
>And a bunch of torpedo hits from destroyers (or "why you should never send you 
>destroyer screen home"), and an 8" shell or two killing her radar system.

And being caught in the lights of the BELFAST's star shell with your main
batteries still trained fore and aft does not help!

SCHARNHORST was still that way when DUKE OF YORK (One ship I wished I could
have seen myself.) opened up on her...

C.T.


"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 00:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 21 23:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] spreading tech knowledge
Message-ID: <16b.1286fbfe.2a95e1b4@aol.com>

 >> But going by what PC's can find it would be difficult to say that any 
world
 >>  that has a starport and isn't xenophobic isn't tech 12+.
 >
 >Yeah, well, that's a problem with just about _any_ TL measure I've seen
 >proposed.

I heard an interesting quote in a movie:  "Don't you know?  Everything breaks 
down in Africa."  It occured to me that what was really happening there was 
that, while everything breaks down everywhere, if it breaks down in Africa 
you frequently can't get it repaired.  Perhaps that would be a standard that 
would work.  Yeah, you can fly around in your grav car on a tech 3 world -- 
but if it breaks down, can you get it fixed by local repairmen using local 
parts?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 00:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 21 23:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT and TML-Chat
Message-ID: <62.24915707.2a95e4de@aol.com>

 >But you're not the one who gets the complaints about off topic posts, or the
 >suggestions on who to ban from the list.

How many suggestions did I get?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 01:00:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug 22 00:00:10 2002
Subject: [TML] OT and TML-Chat
References: <B9899B63.6A9C7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <005501c249ab$1b62f2e0$d802bd50@martinjd>

> That's what the delete, score and filter functions of one's mailer are
> for.  Whining is for, well, whiners.

Too much off-topic crap on the list makes it useless. Since I want to have a
Traveller list, then crap control seems wise.



Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-to-the-Masses
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 01:03:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Thu Aug 22 00:03:09 2002
Subject: [TML] LLellewyloly q&a
References: <3D646CB7.9F357DF6@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3D648B3C.7060107@yarranet.net.au>

Roseberry wrote:

> Humans and LLellewyloly have been around for centeries on Junidy.
> According to one article I've read, Humans experimented on Dandies in
> the late 600's/early 700's. In another article I've read, Dandies are a
> non-space faring race, only up to TL3. Then I read that in the early
> 1100's Dandies and Humans are having problems. 
> 
> Question One:
> So the Dandies have a big revolution in the 600/700 over human
> experimentation, but they NEVER progressed in TL?


I've never read about experimentation but the revolution happened and 
they were given equality with the humans, I can't confirm the date of it 
though.

At the time of The Traveller Adventure this equality isn't quite equal
Junidy society is mixed not segregated (half the population are dandies 
i.e. 14 billion) and they hold down a lot of important jobs. There seems 
to be a glass(house)-ceiling for LLellewyloly.

In the Patron Encounter from TTA I ran last Tuesday some activists, 2 
human 4 Dandies, (the Equality League IMTU) try to use the March Harrier 
as a bargaining chip to garner concessions out of the government.
Luckily for the 'human overlords' the ship was full of PC's and the 
activists left in body bags.

> Question Two:
> If the humans didn't like the Dandies, why bother with the atmospheric
> experimentation?


Where is the experimentation story from? If it's supposed to be on the 
dandies they are native and can already breath quite fine on Junidy.


> Question Three:
> Somewhat related to Question One, MT suggests that Dandies have a space
> farring rebel group to oppose the humans. How did they get this if there
> still at TL3?


Because society is mixed they're at Junidy's TL, or at least enough of 
them are and I get the impression there are sympathizers to their cause 
so a mutiny may be successful, except for the 11.4 TCr of other ships in 
the planetary navy.
The Northern continent that they originated from may still be lower tech 
though.

> Question Four:
> What, if anything, does canon have to say about LLellewyloly space
> flight capability? [I don't have and don't know if there is anything
> about this in the Traveller Adventure or Alien Realms but I suspect
> their is something there].


They were TL3 when contacted and since equality have been equal citizens 
of Junidy so they have whatever the humans have, in theory.

Phill
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/traveller/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 01:06:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Aug 22 00:06:11 2002
Subject: [TML] LLellewyloly q&a
References: <20020822051103.4678.61657.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <003901c249aa$3ce67780$a4b18b90@computer>

> From: Roseberry
> Question Three:
> Somewhat related to Question One, MT suggests that Dandies have a space
> farring rebel group to oppose the humans. How did they get this if there
> still at TL3?

< The representative of a pansophontist organisation based on Regina
nonchalantly cleans his fingernails at this point, and quietly hums a well
known Ine Givar marching song... Meanwhile, a member of a Vargr respectable
businessman's club seems to be coughing up phlegm, or maybe he is singing
along... >

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 01:09:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Aug 22 00:09:00 2002
Subject: [TML] TL 11 Missile Boats vs TL 12 Meson Guns  was: USS North Carolina: etc
Message-ID: <003a01c249aa$474705a0$a4b18b90@computer>

> From: Rupert Boleyn
> > Except of course that by that time, the battleship's day was past.
>
> Hmm. It certainly applies to TL-11 missile boats when they run into Tl-12
> capital ships with spinal meson guns.

Now I'm going to have to do the calculations on this...

TL-11 _capital_ ships would die a whole bunch against TL-12 meson ships, but
the million missile monkeys might still work. Then again, the missile boat
was a Terran idea.

The TL-11 vs TL-12 thing is a major problem for the TL-11 side, but TL-12
missile monkeys are a problem for TL-12 meson ships, IIRC. Oh yes, I just
checked: Factor-1 dampers at TL-12! Of course, they're Factor-0 at TL-11 : (

(And then there are rocks with PAs, that kill missile ships really well...)

Anyone for a game of meson, missiles, rock?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 01:12:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Maksim-Smelchak)
Date: Thu Aug 22 00:12:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Low-tech dilemmas and non-interchangable parts...
In-Reply-To: <16b.1286fbfe.2a95e1b4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPOEHNEGAA.max200@lanset.com>

Another problem is that much of Africa has yet to adapt interchangable
parts. If the hardware (nuts and bolts) break, someone has to pull out the
tap and die and make a new set. Sometimes, even things that were made with
interchangable parts are drilled out until they are "African-ized." I know a
number of aid program personnel who complained about this. On one jand, this
might be more flexible, but on another it makes maintenance a nightmare.

Imagine the kinds of jury-rigged repairs one could find on lower tech worlds
supporting technology of a higher tech level than is locally sustainable or
producable?

Think duct tape, chicken wire, bailing wire, and blue tack gone mad!

I also think that smart engineers of equipment designed for lower tech rural
worlds would be built with easy repair and maintenance in mind. For
instance, my 1975 Harley Davidson Sportster XLCH can be easily repaired with
tractor parts from the 1920's and 1930's. Many of the puieces can handle
high enough tolerances that pre-manufacturing line technology could make
parts that could be used.

Cheers,
Maksim-Smelchak.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Flykiller@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 11:42 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] spreading tech knowledge

>> But going by what PC's can find it would be difficult to say that any
world >> that has a
>> starport and isn't xenophobic isn't tech 12+.>> Yeah, well, that's a
problem with just about >> _any_ TL measure I've seen >proposed. >>>

I heard an interesting quote in a movie: "Don't you know? Everything breaks
down in Africa." It occured to me that what was really happening there was
that, while everything breaks down everywhere, if it breaks down in Africa
you frequently can't get it repaired. Perhaps that would be a standard that
would work. Yeah, you can fly around in your grav car on a tech 3 world --
but if it breaks down, can you get it fixed by local repairmen using local
parts?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 01:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Thu Aug 22 00:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
In-Reply-To: <3D643043.21637.61E454@localhost>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPCEHNENAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Actually isn't it part of the Mutually Assured Dance err Destruction
doctrine?

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Andrew & Dii
Moffatt-Vallance
Sent: Wednesday, 21 August 2002 8:29 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets


On 20 Aug 2002, at 12:29, Hurrel, Brian wrote:

> "Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance" wrote:

> >I'm still convinced that Abba constituted some form of violation of the
> >Geneva conventions.

> The Swedish government maintains that this was merely in retaliation for
> Leif Garrett.

Retailation in kind is specifically prohibited

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 02:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 22 01:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Talking vs Playing games...
Message-ID: <34aef9344042.34404234aef9@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Maksim-Smelchak <max200@lanset.com>
Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 4:52 am
Subject: [TML] Talking vs Playing games...

> I've found that gaming becomes more focussed if you take a break 
> every few
> weeks and play a "beer & pretzels" kind of game. When my group becomes
> listless, I call the day and we play something less mindconsuming.

"Mindconsuming"?

Are you playing _Call of Cthulhu_? ;-)

I agree, though, about the beer and pretzels games being a pleasant 
change of pace.  Some of my favorites are _Junta_, _Paranoia_ and _Chez 
Geek_.

ObTrav:  We _still_ need to do up a set of "Chez Beowulf" rules....

<<snip>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 03:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 22 02:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <350b5434f971.34f971350b54@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Hopper <whopper@pobox.com>
Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 6:09 am
Subject: Re: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)

> 
> Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 
> > ...
> > To your list, let me add the USS Alabama in Mobile Bay. ...
> 
> And, while we're touring the South, the USS Kidd , DD-661,
> http://www.usskidd.com/

Ah, yes.  One of my favorite tourist spots in my adopted home town of 
Baton Rouge, LA.  If any of you come to tour her after January 2003, 
drop me an e-mail.  [I'm stuck here in Egypt until then. :-( ]

When the USN decided to retire the current _Kidd_-class destroyers 
(originally built for the Iranian Navy), I always thought that the newer 
_Kidd_ should be moored near her older namesake as a museum ship.... ;-)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 03:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 22 02:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds
Message-ID: <350aa334e5f2.34e5f2350aa3@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Thomas Barnes <twb3@charter.net>
Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 6:46 am
Subject: RE: [TML] re: OT: Barry Bonds

> Since golf was mentioned, why is it that a golfer needs absolute 
> silenceto strike a stationary ball in front of him, while a 
> ballplayer is
> expected to hit a ball being thrown past (and sometimes AT) him at 
> 90MPHor so while 50,000 spectators scream at the top of their lungs?

As Sammy Snead once told Ted Williams:

"At least you don't have to go into the stands to play your foul balls!"

> ObTrav: Will popular sports in the Traveller universe be more or less
> violent than those we know today?

Yes. ;-)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 03:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Thu Aug 22 02:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] spreading tech knowledge
References: <10.23af07c9.2a9425c1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D630612.2020700@usisp.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> >>     How is that in violation of canon? If it is as you suggest, then why 
> >> aren't all worlds at
> >> Imperial Tech?
> >
> >Good question.  Why _aren't_ almost all worlds at Imperial tech?
>
>One might ask a similar question of modern Africa.
>
    I rest my case.

>





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 03:21:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Thu Aug 22 02:21:00 2002
Subject: [TML] spreading tech knowledge
References: <ML-2.3.1029891558.8606.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3D6308E1.3070700@usisp.com>

>
>
>Well, truth is, you can get an awful lot of TL 7 goods in africa, if you want
>to; by some of the definitions given, Africa is about TL 6.  Certainly, their
>weapons tend to be TL 6.
>
    How much of their tech 7 stuff is local and how much is imported? 
Did they manufacture
their own weapons or but them from an international arms dealer. I could 
be wrong. but
many of Africans are living at tech 3 or lower.

>Africa is an excellent example of a plausible low-tech society.  Its primary
>distinguishing economic feature isn't the fact that it's low tech, its primary
>distinguishing feature is that it has 1/50 of the per capita GDP of the US.
>
     The reason they have such a low per capita is because they do not 
have high-tech manufacturing
or the widespread infrastructure to support such. Thus they cannot 
compete in the world economy
except by exports of raw materials or the use of cheap labor.
    I still stand by my earlier posts.





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 03:24:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Thu Aug 22 02:24:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economics
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNGEJOEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <3D630F71.9020204@usisp.com>

Terry Carlino wrote:

>Do people in the in the late Imperium do business significantly differently
>than in Year 0? I don't know. Do we do business significantly differently in
>2002 A.D. than we did in 1002 A.D.? Are the Politics different? Again I
>don't know canon simply does not have enough information.
>
    When you buy something, you receive goods in exchange for money. 
When you sell
something, you receive money in exchange for goods. Money is anything 
that has worth,
whether it is gov backed paper, gold, llammas, or wampum. How can 
business be conducted
in any other way? Anything else is just a method of doing the above.
    Politics is very much the same except that words and promises are 
exchanged. Politicians
promise to do stuff if voters promise to vote for them. 'I promise to 
not bomb you if you
promise to not invade. I promised the voters that I would say that 
because they kept their
promise and voted me in office.'
    Politics is a different form of economics. hmmm I wonder if the same 
rules can be applied
to each.
    In any case..it is the same as it ever was or ever will be.

>During the long night and just there after it makes sense that isolated
>undiscovered worlds might have regressed and have TL's far below Imperial
>norms. Trade might be far below or far above what could be expected later.
>
    Gee...just as 'hard times' predicts for the stoppage of trade....

>I primarily deal with CT and GT. I'm not interested in a post-virus
>anything. The only two sources of economic models for the CT/GT twelfth
>century Imperium are given in Merchant Prince and GT:Far Trader. These place
>trade levels at an unreasonably low level.  To use the economic model of a
>T4 product generally invalidates several other GT books (Starports, Ground
>Forces, First In, etc.) which use these same numbers.
>
    Merchant Prince were designed to generate cargoes for pc 
specualtion, not for
simulating macroeconomics. Though I don't use gurps, I feel that if 
gt:far trader based
its macroeconomic simulation on 'merchant prince' then it is surely flawed.

>The authors of Far Trader also believe it was based on sound economic
>models. The numbers are, as I understand it, cook to give the results they
>give because these were the levels of trade they were told to shoot for. The
>reason, higher trade would have caused TL leveling. If a TL 5 world imports
>50% of its goods from a TL10 neighbor then it will soon be indistinguishable
>from the TL10 world.
>
    Only until the low tech world runs out of money to purchase high 
tech goods.
Despite our ability to trade with the entire world, Africa and many 
other parts of the earth
are still low tech because they can't afford high tech stuff. If they 
can't pay for it, Then
they will just have to make it themselves......oops, they don't have 
high tech infrastructure.
    I still stand by my interpretation of tech levels and of econonomics.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 04:01:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Aug 22 03:01:35 2002
Subject: [TML] Motown Keyboard Kill
In-Reply-To: <002601c2454a$f25d4350$1001a8c0@sauron>
Message-ID: <20822.021239.1D8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail you write:

> Nick Wright wrote :
>> Frankie (Munden) wrote:
>> 
>> "I know Loren, Martin and John,    ...."
>> 
>> Keyboard Kill, Sir.
>
> I have to admit that this kill was completely unintended. 
> So unintended, in fact, that I still don't get it. 
> Can you let me in on the joke, please?

Old song about "Abraham, Martin, and John". Referring to Abraham
Lincoln, Martin Luther King, and John F. Kennedy.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 04:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 22 03:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <386562388a54.388a54386562@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 9:06 pm
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets

> >From: "Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
> >> >that Sweden swept down on anyone?
> >>
> >> Their last military adventurism was about 1740, but those "I Am 
> >>Curious" movies from the 1960s nearly brought down western
> >>civilization. 
> >
> >I'm still convinced that Abba constituted some form of violation 
> of 
> >the Geneva conventions.
> 
> The Al Qaeda detainees in Cuba who recently attempted suicide had
> been subjected to constant Abba music in the camp's PA system, and a
> live concert had been advertised.

Don't _make_ me repost my ABBA Trav filk....

<sings softly>

There were starships in the sky that night
With lasers bright, on Mongo....

</sings softly>  



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 05:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 22 04:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Names of Tigresses
Message-ID: <38b1d2383ab4.383ab438b1d2@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Date: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 0:22 am
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Names of Tigresses

> On 20 Aug 2002 at 17:57, john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:
> 
> > BTW, has anyone used the Abbatoir hellkittens (from George R.R. 
> Martin's 
> > _Tuf Voyaging_) as an animal encounter in their games?
> 
> Not yet. I like that silicate spider, too.

Indeed.  Just the right antidote for munchkins in battledress.... <eg>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 05:03:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Long)
Date: Thu Aug 22 04:03:45 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fairy Gannet
In-Reply-To: <20020822010103.27556.54997.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000601c249ca$d109d860$5c1b78d5@MakaiSoft.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 17:28:35 -0700
> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
<Snip>
> >
> > So, what do you think of the appearance of the Gannett AEW?
>
> I think the doctors told that aircraft's parents that the
> twins were too
>   throughly conjoined for separation surgery to be
> successful, and that
> they should just love them while they had them...;-)
>
> http://www.shoal.net.au/~anam/gallery/nseries/gannet/ganet8.html
>
That looks like an ordinary Gannet to me. The AEW version had a very large
blister (under the chin, I think?) housing an air search radar. It looks
extremely awkward and I shudder to think what it was like to land in.

in a similar vein, the RN's AEW Sea King is yet another example of 'AEW on
the cheap'

Andy

--
 Andrew Long            Email   AndrewGLong@Yahoo.com (Preferred)
 1 Court Hill                   AndyLong@Ecossetel.com
 Taunton                Phone   +44 (7817) 533382 (Mobile/UK)
 TA1 4SX                        +44 (1823) 337322 (Home/UK)
 England                        (+971 (50) 521 3651 Mobile/UAE)
--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 05:17:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Aug 22 04:17:01 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller using other rulesets (Torg and others)
Message-ID: <20020822125054.3060bf74.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Hi

A while ago, I posted about playing Traveller using Torg rules. I have
kept that idea in my head, and I think that's what I'll do when I
finally get my campaign going.

Right now, I am in the middle of both some exams and a lot of "moving
stuff to another city", but when all that is finished, I will start my
Torg campaign. If that goes well, which I am conviced it will, I will
have plenty of ideas for adapting that rules system to Traveller after
trying it for a while.

Throughout September, I will be more or less isolated from the Internet
(woe is me), but after that, I'll be posting some of my ideas.

I know that a lot of other people have adapted Traveller to various RPG
systems. Do you have any general tips & tricks to make my life easier?

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 05:25:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ludwig)
Date: Thu Aug 22 04:25:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Abortion in the Imperium: Murder or Human Right?
Message-ID: <20020822072621.24f6966d.mariachi@mac.com>

Just kidding. ;)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 05:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Long)
Date: Thu Aug 22 04:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] FW: Fairy Gannet
Message-ID: <000d01c249cf$069cea40$5c1b78d5@MakaiSoft.com>

> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 17:28:35 -0700
> > > From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
> > <Snip>
> > > > 
> > > > So, what do you think of the appearance of the Gannett AEW?
> > > 
> > > I think the doctors told that aircraft's parents that the 
> > > twins were too 
> > >   throughly conjoined for separation surgery to be 
> > > successful, and that 
> > > they should just love them while they had them...;-)
> > > 
> > > http://www.shoal.net.au/~anam/gallery/nseries/gannet/ganet8.html
> > > 
> > That looks like an ordinary Gannet to me. The AEW version had 
> > a very large blister (under the chin, I think?) housing an 
> > air search radar. It looks extremely awkward and I shudder to 
> > think what it was like to land in.
> > 
> yes. The following pages have pictures showing the AEW variant
> 
> http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/gannet/gallery1.html
> http://www.stevenwillingale.com/cv/aew.htm (This one also has 
> a picture of a Douglas Skyraider doing the same job)
> 
> > 
> > Andy
> > 
> > --
> >  Andrew Long            Email   AndrewGLong@Yahoo.com (Preferred)
> >  1 Court Hill                   AndyLong@Ecossetel.com
> >  Taunton                Phone   +44 (7817) 533382 (Mobile/UK)
> >  TA1 4SX                        +44 (1823) 337322 (Home/UK)
> >  England                        (+971 (50) 521 3651 Mobile/UAE)
> > --
> > 
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 05:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Thu Aug 22 04:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The Drug Thread
In-Reply-To: <F137TXSRdZqou2Vythh0000060e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D65758C.22153.38C439@localhost>

On 21 Aug 2002, at 23:00, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      May I suggest some more innocuous topics?  Alternate lifestyle Aslan
> females in comfortable shoes who inhabit near-c rocks and help maintain the
> tech level of the Rule of Man might be fun.

*Ethically challanged* alternative lifestyle Aslan females if you please :*>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 05:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Aug 22 04:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Names of Tigresses
In-Reply-To: <38b1d2383ab4.383ab438b1d2@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <3D6576BE.8238.397094@localhost>

On 22 Aug 2002 at 14:00, john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:

> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
> Date: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 0:22 am
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Names of Tigresses
> 
> > On 20 Aug 2002 at 17:57, john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:
> > 
> > > BTW, has anyone used the Abbatoir hellkittens (from George R.R. 
> > Martin's 
> > > _Tuf Voyaging_) as an animal encounter in their games?
> > 
> > Not yet. I like that silicate spider, too.
> 
> Indeed.  Just the right antidote for munchkins in battledress.... <eg>

That's what I was thinking. I wonder how it would go on an Intrepid. 
Hmm.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 05:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Long)
Date: Thu Aug 22 04:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The Digest
Message-ID: <000e01c249d1$2213a320$5c1b78d5@MakaiSoft.com>

Listmom

Have just received two digests numbered as 971, although they contain
different posts. I know I've been complaining about missing digests, but
this is a bit over the top, isn't it ;-}

Andy

--
 Andrew Long            Email   AndrewGLong@Yahoo.com (Preferred)
 1 Court Hill                   AndyLong@Ecossetel.com
 Taunton                Phone   +44 (7817) 533382 (Mobile/UK)
 TA1 4SX                        +44 (1823) 337322 (Home/UK)
 England                        (+971 (50) 521 3651 Mobile/UAE)
--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 06:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Aug 22 05:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Low-tech dilemmas and non-interchangable parts...
In-Reply-To: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPOEHNEGAA.max200@lanset.com>
References: <16b.1286fbfe.2a95e1b4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020822080843.0163dec8@192.168.0.1>

At 11:57 PM 8/21/2002 -0700, Maksim-Smelchak wrote:
>Another problem is that much of Africa has yet to adapt interchangable
>parts. If the hardware (nuts and bolts) break, someone has to pull out the
>tap and die and make a new set. Sometimes, even things that were made with
>interchangable parts are drilled out until they are "African-ized." I know a
>number of aid program personnel who complained about this. On one jand, this
>might be more flexible, but on another it makes maintenance a nightmare.
>Imagine the kinds of jury-rigged repairs one could find on lower tech worlds
>supporting technology of a higher tech level than is locally sustainable or
>producable?
>Think duct tape, chicken wire, bailing wire, and blue tack gone mad!

Back to the Future III.  A small microchip replaced by a suitcase sized 
collection of tubes.




---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 06:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Thu Aug 22 05:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] HGS ships Q&A
In-Reply-To: <3D640081.9C3C42A8@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3D6584CF.16924.74605E@localhost>

On 21 Aug 2002, at 16:05, Roseberry wrote:

> Anybody ever try to do the Gazelle or the Fer-de-lance
> using HGS. I've tried and the figures don't add up right.
> I just tried the Fer-de-lance today just now and its just over
> its tonnage by the amount of the Fuel Purification Plant.
> I've tried the Gazelle before and it doesn't look kosher either.

Simple answer; virtually every published High Guard design is broken. The 
ones in Fighting Ships are generally particularly badly broken, but I've not 
found a published "legal" book 5 ship yet (even the Regal battlecruiser in 
TCS is broken, and that one has a worksheet!). Needless to say, this 
caused many frantic hairpulling hours when I was writting HGS while I tried 
to track down the horrendous program errors that were making these 
designs come out wrong :*>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 06:45:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Thu Aug 22 05:45:55 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <1029985423.3d64548fa0f60@www.paradise.net.nz>
References: <000001c2497c$1704ad30$6501a8c0@Darla>
Message-ID: <3D6584CF.8679.74605E@localhost>

On 22 Aug 2002, at 15:03, Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> Aside from the Montanas (which were designed without this limit) this wasn't a
> huge problem to most ships, especially once the USN switched to fast
> battleships. HMS Vanguard was shorter, only slightly wider and of about the
> same beam as the Iowas, and displaced about the same. Not going for that last
> little bit of speed allows a much fuller hull form. She also needed only about
> 2/3rds the horsepower, and still did 29 knots.

One might point out that Vanguard had a transom, without it she'd have 
struggled to make 27. Also, though Vanguard was last into the water, she 
wasn't last completed. That honour goes to the Jean Bart who's completion 
was greatly delayed due to her building yard being occupied by the 
Germans.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 06:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Aug 22 05:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <3D6584CF.8679.74605E@localhost>
References: <1029985423.3d64548fa0f60@www.paradise.net.nz>
Message-ID: <3D6587C6.7914.7BF5A3@localhost>

On 23 Aug 2002 at 0:41, Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance wrote:

> One might point out that Vanguard had a transom, without it she'd have 
> struggled to make 27.

That's called clever design. :)

> Also, though Vanguard was last into the water, she 
> wasn't last completed. That honour goes to the Jean Bart who's completion 
> was greatly delayed due to her building yard being occupied by the 
> Germans.

That's true. IIRC she was running around with only one turret for a 
while.
-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 07:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 22 06:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] traveller font
Message-ID: <E17hrgn-000425-00@config3.kundenserver.de>

Hey everyone,
first post to the TML, so here goes...

What font is used to write the word "Traveller" from the LBBs?

Figured I might use it on my website...

Thx

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 07:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Aug 22 06:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A quick note
Message-ID: <F106wbyKYdCPubiq4qh00011e98@hotmail.com>

From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

     "I've been taken off the Outrim Void p[roject for reasons that I
shall not discuss.  The book will come out, but the bulk of it will
be handled by another writer (I have no idea who at this point.)"


Mr. Berry,

     I'm sure the Outrim Void book will be a great success because the new 
writer will be standing on the shoulders of a GIANT.
     Ground Forces and ACQ are already on my shelves and I know they will be 
joined by others equally as fine.


     Sincerely,
     Bill, aka Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 07:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ludwig)
Date: Thu Aug 22 06:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] traveller font
In-Reply-To: <E17hrgn-000425-00@config3.kundenserver.de>
References: <E17hrgn-000425-00@config3.kundenserver.de>
Message-ID: <20020822093245.120eb633.mariachi@mac.com>

On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 15:07:53 +0200
rowland@rogueapp.com wrote:

> Hey everyone,
> first post to the TML, so here goes...
> 
> What font is used to write the word "Traveller" from the LBBs?

Optima (oblique or italic). 

See here:  <http://www.adobe.com/type/browser/P/P_006.jhtml>

Don't know where to get a free version, but you might look for knockoffs named "Ultima" or "Optimus" or somesuch.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 07:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Aug 22 06:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <F225xdSeKSGtAk6zGKk00010373@hotmail.com>

From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

     "And a bunch of torpedo hits from destroyers (or "why you should never 
send you destroyer screen home"), and an 8" shell or two killing her radar 
system."


Mr. Boleyn,

     The torpedos put her under most definitely.  The 32 survivors of the 
Scharnhorst were pretty much in agreement that none of the 14" hits 
penetrated the belt armor.  However, it was that single 14" shell coming 
down through the side of the hull and temporarily knocking out half her 
boilers that allowed the RN DDs to catch up.  The sea state was so poor that 
Scharnhorst was running away even from the destroyers.
     She did lose part of her radar capability during the two brushes with 
the convoy's cruiser escorts, but the author and the RN believe that it was 
German paranoia regarding radar use that limited it's role.  The Germans 
were convinced that the Allies tracked vessels via their radar emissions 
rather then by radar of their own.  This led them to severely limit the use 
of their own radars, anticipating the now familiar "radiate and die" rule of 
thumb.
     The boiler wrecking 14" hit was fired at by Duke of York at extreme 
range and under radar control.  It was part of the last two salvos the BB 
fired during that part of the engagement.  Until the range on Duke of York's 
radar began dropping as the Scharnhorst lost speed, Fraser truly believed 
the German BC had slipped the noose.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

P.S. Mr. Tseng is correct, the VANGUARD would have mopped the floor with 
KENTUCKY.


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 07:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Aug 22 06:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E71@USCHM203>

>"Glenn M. Goffin" wrote:

>Don't _make_ me repost my ABBA Trav filk....

><sings softly>

>There were starships in the sky that night
>With lasers bright, on Mongo....

></sings softly>  

Thanks alot! Now I've got that hideous tune running about my head, and it
will probably rattle around there for the rest of the day!!!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 08:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Aug 22 07:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Absent Friends
Message-ID: <F170KPcOyilVvH9ku4n00026b98@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     I recieved the following message this morning and felt it should shared 
with the List immediately.


From: generalturokan@juno.com

Larsen,

My name is Mechelle. I am Bari's daughter. Thank you for the commpasion
that you showed toward my dad. He has gone on to heaven, Aug. 21, 2002
about 9:15pm.

I have asked Cliff to let everyone know.

Thank you,

The Staffords

Mary, Mechelle, and Bari Jr.


     I never met Mr. Stafford, never shook his hand or slapped his back, but 
he was still a dear friend of mine.  He was gracious, funny, kind, and 
inventive.
     He is already missed.
     When I arrived on the List a few years ago, Mr. Stafford and I quickly 
struck up a private correspondance.  He was hard at work on his Rim Route 
then and shared pieces of it with me.  The scope of his work was mind 
boggling, he generated and mapped a route equivalent to the Core Expeditions 
route beyond the Solomani and Hivers out towards the Rim.  Seeing a post 
from him in my inbox was like a holiday.  There would be some wonderful 
present in the form of an attachment; maybe a map, maybe another sector's 
worth of UWPs, definitely something new to make me gape in awe.
     He did this all, generating UWPs, drawing maps, keeping up with the 
TML, writing notes to myself and others, all while suffering from ALS, aka 
Lou Gehrig's disease.  As his body slowly died around him, he kept working.  
He did not rage against the dying of the light, rage and recriminations were 
not his way.  Instead, he lit a candle.  The days left to him "dwindled down 
to a precious few" and he used Our Olde Game to remain connected to those 
around him.  I can only hope that I will able to show the same courage when 
the time comes.
     May I ask a small favor of you all?  Today, when you sit down to your 
evening meal, remember Bari Stafford.  Your creed or personal beliefs don't 
matter and how you choose do it is of no real consequence, just think of him 
and wish him well.
     Thank you all.


     Sincerely,
     William R. Cameron

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 08:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug 22 07:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] spreading tech knowledge
In-Reply-To: <16b.1286fbfe.2a95e1b4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020822140840.79057.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>

This is one of the determining factors of tech level
IMTU.  Quick access/reasonably priced replacement
parts for a particular tech level.  For example, you
might be able to get a replacement part for that TL-15
fusion reactor on the TL-12 world, but it is gonna
cost you.  And you may have to jump through hoops. 
Maybe the best example of this is SW1: The Phantom
Menace.  Not exactly Traveller, but they needed parts
that weren't readily available.

Paul

--- Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
>  >> But going by what PC's can find it would be
> difficult to say that any 
> world
>  >>  that has a starport and isn't xenophobic isn't
> tech 12+.
>  >
>  >Yeah, well, that's a problem with just about _any_
> TL measure I've seen
>  >proposed.
> 
> I heard an interesting quote in a movie:  "Don't you
> know?  Everything breaks 
> down in Africa."  It occured to me that what was
> really happening there was 
> that, while everything breaks down everywhere, if it
> breaks down in Africa 
> you frequently can't get it repaired.  Perhaps that
> would be a standard that 
> would work.  Yeah, you can fly around in your grav
> car on a tech 3 world -- 
> but if it breaks down, can you get it fixed by local
> repairmen using local 
> parts?
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 08:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Loren Wiseman)
Date: Thu Aug 22 07:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Can someone help this chap?
Message-ID: <l03010d04b98aa25a78b0@[192.168.1.67]>

He's not a subscriber to the TML, as far as I know. I'm up to my neck in
other things right now, and I', sure there are dozens of people here who
have this information tattooed on the inside of their eyelids . . .

 :  )

LKW

******************

>From: thierry.maitrejean@belgacom.net
>X-Webmail-posting-IP: 213.189.170.100
>Subject: District 268, fleets and the type T cruiser
>To: lkw@io.com
>Cc: tml@travellercentral.com
>Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 13:34:01 +0200
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>
>Hello, A short introduction is in order : I am a 38 year old belgian
>gamer. I discovered and immediately started to referee Traveller in the
>spring of 1980. I ran campaigns using CT, then MT and TNE as game systems.
>However, these campaigns have always taken place in the pre-5th frontier
>war period. I have never felt at ease with the post-war rebellion
>background and was really happy to find out that GT had dropped it
>altogether. I am now working on my next campaign, due to start in january
>2003. The PCs will be naval officers and possibly marines or attached
>scout personnel) in active service. The action will start in 1105 and will
>take place in District 268 and the neighbouring subsectors, both in the
>Marches and the Trojan Reach. The idea is to start the group on a peace
>footing, then gradually build the tension until the outbreak of 5FW, play
>through it and eventually deal with its aftermath (mopping up, pirate
>hunting, releif and humanitarian missions). By then, the campaign year
>will probably be around 1112. If the players want the campaign to go on,
>they'll be demobbed and will start as the archetypical Traveller group,
>but with a fully played-out instead of a randomly determinated personal
>history. I would now like to ask your advice/answer/comments on several
>points : 1. Fleet allocation :   In 1105 and the following years, District
>268 doesn't warrant a numbered fleet. Naval presence in the district is
>maintained from the base at Mille Falcs (1637). The fleet in Glisten
>subsector has probably dispatched a frontier task force to that base and
>could provide heavier backup if need be.2. Which fleet ? :  the 5FW maps
>on pp 12-13 of The spinward marches campaign show 214th fleet in Glisten.
>The text says it took part into the Sword Worlds campaign. Yet,
>Megatraveller rebellion sourcebook (page 26) shows 214th fleet in Aramis,
>while Glisten is now home to the 100th fleet. Is this a mistake or has
>214th been redeployed after the war ? Anyway, what is the correct pre-war
>situation ?3. Fleet organigram : What would the probable composition of
>the Glisten fleet be? Which of its ships could likely be detached to form
>the District 268  Task Force ?4. Player's ship :  I need a ship allowing
>the group reasonnable f! reedom of action, matching the probable
>opposition but not too powerful (especially as far as ship's troops are
>concerned - the 35-strong marine contingent on a Kinunir would wreck the
>campaign PDQ, especially after GT Ground forces). I was thinking about a
>Gazelle-class Close escort or , even better, a type T patrol cruiser.
>While deck plans and background for the CE are plentiful, I still have to
>find detailed info about the type T. Isn'it strange, by the way, that so
>many illustrations show a type T in action, but that (to the best of my
>knowledge), GDW never published more detailed info about that naval
>workhorse ? I know FASA released information (and 15mm scale deckplans)
>about the patrol cruiser in  its Adventure class ships volume II " boxed
>set, but I have never been able to lay hands on it. Can someone out there
>help me ?5. GURPS Traveller "High Guard " :  If comparison with " ground
>forces " is any indication, I'll find all the info I need in the
>forthcomin! g GT book on the Navy. Does anyone know when it will be
>released ? Thanks in advance for your kind help.Best regards,Thierry
>Maitrejean
>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 08:19:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug 22 07:19:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Absent Friends
In-Reply-To: <F170KPcOyilVvH9ku4n00026b98@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020822141847.90558.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> that you showed toward my dad. He has gone on to
> heaven, Aug. 21, 2002
> about 9:15pm.

Goodbye General.

Thanks, Larsen, and fwd my sympathies to the family.

Paul


__________________________________________________
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HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 08:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gregory Carl Kettler)
Date: Thu Aug 22 07:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT and TML-Chat
In-Reply-To: <m3ofbvhfgu.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0208220934470.23581-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>

On 21 Aug 2002, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> wrote:
> That's what the delete, score and filter functions of one's mailer are
> for.  Whining is for, well, whiners.

Unfortunately, many of the drug posts are still being sent out under the
subject, "USS North Carolina..."
As someone who enjoys reading about big ships but is bored to tears by
the same old drug debate, I still have to read the noise to find the
interesting posts.

	Gregory Kettler
	"Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before."
			--Dave, KODT




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 08:42:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 22 07:42:04 2002
Subject: [TML] traveller font
Message-ID: <11c.15d5379a.2a9651b8@cs.com>

mariachi@mac.com writes: 
> Don't know where to get a free version, but you might look for knockoffs 
> named "Ultima" or "Optimus" or somesuch.

Try at :
http://www.1001freefonts.com/fontfiles/platinummembers.htm

I've found a lot of great-looking fonts there.

Doug Grimes


--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/html
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 08:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeffrey Yin)
Date: Thu Aug 22 07:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Absent Friends
References: <20020822141847.90558.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <OE24HlwWkVNqXSvUkBA00010602@hotmail.com>

We'll miss the old General.  

Jeff Yin

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 08:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Thu Aug 22 07:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Absent Friends
Message-ID: <memo.53430@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <F170KPcOyilVvH9ku4n00026b98@hotmail.com>
Oh dear :-(

A sad piece of news.

Let us pause for a moment, remember the cheerful and inventive presence, 
and salute his memory.

Lord, grant him your everlasting peace, and comfort those who mourn his 
passing. Amen.

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 09:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Thu Aug 22 08:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] LLellewyloly q&a
Message-ID: <3D64FEA6.C947F4F4@mail.cswnet.com>

Phill Webb writes:
>Where is the experimentation story from? If it's supposed to be on >the dandies they are native and can already breath quite fine on >Junidy.

http://members.aol.com/gypsycomet/dandies.html

Excerpt from Contact: LLellewyloly, by James Kundert @1994

"Llellewyloly, having evolved in a Very Thin atmosphere, have trouble
breathing in Standard and Dense atmospheres. They suffer from
over-oxygenation, and can literally cook themselves alive because of an
overload of oxygen. They are capable of breathing Thin atmospheres, and
can aclimatize to Standard atmospheres with the
"Low Oxygen" taint, but Llellewyloly cannot exist in a Dense atmosphere
without mechanical aid. A filter system for Llellewyloly costs five
times normal, as it must cover all five orifices.

Faced with this problem, the humans of Junidy began a selective breeding
program among the Llellewyloly in 672. Their goal was to produce a
strain of Dandie that could more readily handle high concentrations of
oxygen. Solomani-trained genegineers were brought to the project in 721,
and by 750 announced limited success. A racial
equality crisis in 764 undid most of the project, however, as the
city-bred Llellewyloly fled back into the wilds in
protest. When the crisis was resolved in 765, very few of the city-bred
returned and nearly all had bred with the
rural populations, spreading their high pressure tolerance to most of
the next generation at the cost of diluting it's
occurence. Currently, some 1.5% of all Llellewyloly are capable of
short-term (several hours) exposure to Standard
atmospheres (or to Dense atmospheres with a Low Oxygen taint) before
oxygen overload sets in."

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 09:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark A Nordstrand)
Date: Thu Aug 22 08:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT and TML-Chat
References: <B9899B63.6A9C7%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <005501c249ab$1b62f2e0$d802bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3D650212.B69243B4@visi.com>

MJ Dougherty wrote:
> 
> > That's what the delete, score and filter functions of one's mailer are
> > for.  Whining is for, well, whiners.
> 
> Too much off-topic crap on the list makes it useless. Since I want to have a
> Traveller list, then crap control seems wise.
> 
Problem is, what constitutes crap?  One man's work 
of art is anther's soup can.  Even though my sys
admin skills on good days approachs mediocre, I'm 
able to remove most of what I don't want to see on
the boat-load of lists arriving here.

Not to be a SOB, but I can think of one particular 
subject which keeps coming up and defies filtering
which has absolutely nothing to do with Traveller
(and the SOB part is I *really* don't want to see
it).

-- 
Mark

"I repeat myself when I'm distressed.
I repeat myself when I'm distressed.
I repeat myself ..."

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 09:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug 22 08:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Low-tech dilemmas and non-interchangable parts...
Message-ID: <200208221529.NIG00426@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mark Urbin says
>Back to the Future III.  A small microchip replaced by a 
>suitcase sized collection of tubes.

No, think of the Volvo Penta motor - a high tech motor in 
terms of materials and design made for maintenance in a low 
tech environment.

The parts they anticipate that you might replace locally are 
fairly easy to fabricate if you can't get spares.  But no one 
can locally compete with the low price, high quality, and 
reliability of the design. 
________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 09:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug 22 08:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Absent Friends
Message-ID: <200208221533.NIH00373@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Larsen E. Whipsnade says
>Ladies and Gentlemen,
>
>     I recieved the following message this morning and felt 
>it should shared with the List immediately.

A great man who will be sorely missed.

________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 09:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Aug 22 08:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Absent Friends
In-Reply-To: <F170KPcOyilVvH9ku4n00026b98@hotmail.com>
References: <F170KPcOyilVvH9ku4n00026b98@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020822164908.067b377b.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 14:06:44 +0000
"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> forwarded sad news:

> My name is Mechelle. I am Bari's daughter. Thank you for the
> commpasion that you showed toward my dad. He has gone on to heaven,
> Aug. 21, 2002 about 9:15pm.

I've just turned off the music and remained quiet for a few minutes, I
don't know exactly how long really. Tears are slowly running down my
face.

I have several of his posts saved on disk. Feeling kind of unreal right
now. Don't know what to say really, but please tell the family that we
miss his creative mind, but most of all we miss himself.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 09:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug 22 08:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT and TML-Chat
References: <B9899B63.6A9C7%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <005501c249ab$1b62f2e0$d802bd50@martinjd> <3D650212.B69243B4@visi.com>
Message-ID: <005101c249f5$44347960$fb1abd50@martinjd>

> >
> Problem is, what constitutes crap?  One man's work
> of art is anther's soup can.

Yes. But I'd argue that the endless round of non-Traveller-related
guncontrol./drugs/etc arguments are crap.

They usually have titles that sound interesting, leftover from the days
before the topic wandered into the darkest jungle of crapness.

As to filtering... I've just discovered I lost a critical business email
because its title contained one of my filter words....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 09:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug 22 08:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Absent Friends
References: <F170KPcOyilVvH9ku4n00026b98@hotmail.com> <20020822164908.067b377b.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <008b01c249f6$107cec00$fb1abd50@martinjd>

One of our own. Good? Bad? I can't seem to care. He was one of *us*. That
make any sense?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 10:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Thu Aug 22 09:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <3D64BBD0.6996.4C81F9@localhost>
References: <20020821115558.c2193f72eaf84843badde60a32bb2c13.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020822113421.027af598@mail.qrc.com>

At 06:24 PM 8/21/2002, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>Well, while their deck armour was pretty good, their belts were pretty
>thin for a time when 14"-16" guns were the norm.

The Iowa's deck armor is about 8" (split between three armored decks, the 
thickest of which is 4.75").  Their main belt is 12.1" angled at 19 
degrees, and was supposed to be designed to stop the lightweight (2200lb) 
shells thrown by a US 16"/45 gun.

This compares very well with contemporary ships of comparable size: the 
Bismark class featured a 12.6" main belt, and 6.7" of deck armor (split 
between two decks, the thickest of which was 4.7"), and England's King 
George V class had 15.4" of main belt, and 7" deck armor.  Even the Yamato 
class main belt was 16".

>IMO their good deck armour means they can be called 'fast battleships', 
>but I don't think they'd have done very well in a punch-fest with a better 
>balanced
>design.

The American 16"/50 weapon and excellent (for their day) radar and fire 
control systems would have given the Iowas a significant advantage in 
getting shells on target early.  The gun threw heavier shells and had 
longer effective range than any battleship weapon afloat, except for the 
Japanese 18"/45.  So I'd guess that the Iowas would have fared well in a 
gun duel with anything except the Yamatos (which, after all, were 
significantly larger ships).


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 10:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Thu Aug 22 09:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The Digest
In-Reply-To: <000e01c249d1$2213a320$5c1b78d5@MakaiSoft.com>
Message-ID: <B98A5C5A.6AAD4%listmom@travellercentral.com>

on 8/22/02 4:43 AM, Andrew Long at AndrewGLong@yahoo.com wrote:

> Listmom
> 
> Have just received two digests numbered as 971, although they contain
> different posts. I know I've been complaining about missing digests, but
> this is a bit over the top, isn't it ;-}
> 

I'll take a look.

-- 
listmom@travellercentral.com
for list information see
http://lists.travellercentral.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 10:20:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug 22 09:20:08 2002
Subject: [TML] traveller font
In-Reply-To: <E17hrgn-000425-00@config3.kundenserver.de>
Message-ID: <B98A5CB0.6AAD5%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/22/02 6:07 AM, rowland@rogueapp.com at rowland@rogueapp.com wrote:

> Hey everyone,
> first post to the TML, so here goes...
>=20
> What font is used to write the word "Traveller" from the LBBs?
>=20
> Figured I might use it on my website...
>=20
> Thx

According to Loren, it's the Adobe font Optima.  There are several clones
floating around. I'm sure several list members can direct you.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 10:23:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug 22 09:23:21 2002
Subject: [TML] (no subject)
Message-ID: <002f01c249f9$8f6c02a0$7011bd50@martinjd>

Just in case anyone's missed it,

I've just posted the last part of the Linkworlds thing over to Hunter. Parts
1-3 are already on the site.

This means about 45,000 words of Traveller setting and adventure, for free.


http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 10:26:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Thu Aug 22 09:26:18 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <20020822121855.f70df55d40f84352b2933a3cd7b6f493.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>> > To your list, let me add the USS Alabama in Mobile Bay. ...
>> 
>> And, while we're touring the South, the USS Kidd , DD-661,
>> http://www.usskidd.com/
>
>Ah, yes.  One of my favorite tourist spots in my adopted home town of 
>Baton Rouge, LA.  If any of you come to tour her after January 2003, 
>drop me an e-mail.  [I'm stuck here in Egypt until then. :-( ]
>
>When the USN decided to retire the current _Kidd_-class destroyers 
>(originally built for the Iranian Navy), I always thought that the newer 
>_Kidd_ should be moored near her older namesake as a museum ship.... ;-)

Nice dream, but never was going to happen.  The KIDD's were just too useful
to serve as a museum ship.

You would be lucky to get even _forty_ year old DDGs as museum ships.
Either somebody will want them, or they are too wore out by service to be
worthwhile.

C.T.


"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 10:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Thu Aug 22 09:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Fairy Gannet
Message-ID: <20020822122141.63ae85b520ba4d1ca94fdd965601d475.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>> http://www.shoal.net.au/~anam/gallery/nseries/gannet/ganet8.html
>>
>That looks like an ordinary Gannet to me. The AEW version had a very large
>blister (under the chin, I think?) housing an air search radar. It looks
>extremely awkward and I shudder to think what it was like to land in.
>
>in a similar vein, the RN's AEW Sea King is yet another example of 'AEW on
>the cheap'

More like "AEW on the quick." The RN needed to put an AEW into service ASAP
when the Falklands broke out (Pretty good argument for a real, full-size
carrier.).  So the first Sea King AEW IIRC went south with the same radar as
the Gannet AEW on them.

C.T.


"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 10:33:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Aug 22 09:33:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Absent Friends
In-Reply-To: <F170KPcOyilVvH9ku4n00026b98@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020822090123.009fad00@mindspring.com>

At 02:06 PM 8/22/02 +0000, you wrote:

>My name is Mechelle. I am Bari's daughter. Thank you for the commpasion
>that you showed toward my dad. He has gone on to heaven, Aug. 21, 2002
>about 9:15pm.

Tonight, a glass will be raised to the General's memory.  We've lost a 
great man and a fine friend.

Doug.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 10:36:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Aug 22 09:36:01 2002
Subject: [TML] Can someone help this chap?
In-Reply-To: <l03010d04b98aa25a78b0@[192.168.1.67]>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020822091839.00a071b0@mindspring.com>

At 09:16 AM 8/22/02 -0500, you wrote:
>He's not a subscriber to the TML, as far as I know. I'm up to my neck in
>other things right now, and I', sure there are dozens of people here who
>have this information tattooed on the inside of their eyelids . .

Answer sent.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 10:39:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Thu Aug 22 09:39:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller using other rulesets (Torg and others)
In-Reply-To: <20020822125054.3060bf74.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020822092949.00a03240@mindspring.com>

At 12:50 PM 8/22/02 +0200, you wrote:
>I know that a lot of other people have adapted Traveller to various RPG
>systems. Do you have any general tips & tricks to make my life easier?

Play CORPS.  :)

Really, the easiest generic rules set I know of, nice and 
streamlined.  Good for more experienced role-players because it is so rules 
light.

Advice..  Hmm.  Try to keep the feel of the original game.  Traveller is a 
meld of hard SF and Space Opera.  The rules need to reflect that.  Feel 
free to change whatever needs to be changed.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 10:42:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Thu Aug 22 09:42:15 2002
Subject: [TML] spreading tech knowledge
In-Reply-To: <3D6308E1.3070700@usisp.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1030034112.9071.ajackson@ping>

richard honeycutt writes:

>     How much of their tech 7 stuff is local and how much is imported? 

Shrug.  Almost all of it would be imported, but that's true of lots of places
in Europe too, which most people would think of as TL 7.

>      The reason they have such a low per capita is because they do not 
> have high-tech manufacturing
> or the widespread infrastructure to support such.

Shrug.  Chicken and egg problem.  The reason they don't have high tech
manufacturing or infrastructire is that they don't have the wealth to pay for
it.  My main point is that you can plausibly model the meaning of 'TL' in
Traveller by assuming it's a measure of wealth.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 10:45:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Thu Aug 22 09:45:18 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <20020822122514.b6e505dc086f447094be23ede51d3d02.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>On 22 Aug 2002, at 15:03, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>
>> Aside from the Montanas (which were designed without this limit) this
wasn't a
>> huge problem to most ships, especially once the USN switched to fast
>> battleships. HMS Vanguard was shorter, only slightly wider and of about the
>> same beam as the Iowas, and displaced about the same. Not going for that last
>> little bit of speed allows a much fuller hull form. She also needed only
about
>> 2/3rds the horsepower, and still did 29 knots.
>
>One might point out that Vanguard had a transom, without it she'd have 
>struggled to make 27. Also, though Vanguard was last into the water, she 
>wasn't last completed. That honour goes to the Jean Bart who's completion 
>was greatly delayed due to her building yard being occupied by the 
>Germans.

Garzke and Dulin had a photo of JEAN BART when she had finally returned to
her builder's yard for completion.

JEAN BART was incomplete and needed to be finished.

The shipyard itself needed to be completely rebuilt (The place was complete
devastated - the ship looked better then the yard!).

C.T.


"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 10:48:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Thu Aug 22 09:48:16 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <20020822122942.a7e8758886eb463787a6d38a8210254b.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>> One might point out that Vanguard had a transom, without it she'd have 
>> struggled to make 27.
>
>That's called clever design. :)

Damn shame she did it only to hoist around thirty year old turrets and guns.

>> Also, though Vanguard was last into the water, she 
>> wasn't last completed. That honour goes to the Jean Bart who's completion 
>> was greatly delayed due to her building yard being occupied by the 
>> Germans.
>
>That's true. IIRC she was running around with only one turret for a 
>while.

After the Allies captured French North Africa, JEAN BART (Which had not been
handled too well by MASSACHUSETTS and the Dauntlesses from RANGER.) went to
the US for repairs.  The first thing that was done was to remove all the
undamaged gun barrels from the turret so they could serve as replacement and
battle spares for RICHILIEU.  For the rest of the war, she had nothing more
powerful then Oerlikons for weapons.

C.T.


"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 10:51:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 22 09:51:17 2002
Subject: [TML] District 268, fleets and the type T cruiser
Message-ID: <200208221134.g7MBY1o11504@excalibur.skynet.be>

Hello,
A short introduction is in order : I am a 38 year old belgian gamer. I discovered and immediately started to referee Traveller in the spring of 1980. I ran campaigns using CT, then MT and TNE as game systems. However, these campaigns have always taken place in the pre-5th frontier war period. I have never felt at ease with the post-war rebellion background and was really happy to find out that GT had dropped it altogether.
I am now working on my next campaign, due to start in january 2003. The PCs will be naval officers and possibly marines or attached scout personnel) in active service. The action will start in 1105 and will take place in District 268 and the neighbouring subsectors, both in the Marches and the Trojan Reach. The idea is to start the group on a peace footing, then gradually build the tension until the outbreak of 5FW, play through it and eventually deal with its aftermath (mopping up, pirate hunting, releif and humanitarian missions). By then, the campaign year will probably be around 1112. If the players want the campaign to go on, they'll be demobbed and will start as the archetypical Traveller group, but with a fully played-out instead of a randomly determinated personal history.
I would now like to ask your advice/answer/comments on several points :
1. Fleet allocation :   In 1105 and the following years, District 268 doesn't warrant a numbered fleet. Naval presence in the district is maintained from the base at Mille Falcs (1637). The fleet in Glisten subsector has probably dispatched a frontier task force to that base and could provide heavier backup if need be.
2. Which fleet ? :  the 5FW maps on pp 12-13 of The spinward marches campaign show 214th fleet in Glisten. The text says it took part into the Sword Worlds campaign. Yet, Megatraveller rebellion sourcebook (page 26) shows 214th fleet in Aramis, while Glisten is now home to the 100th fleet. Is this a mistake or has 214th been redeployed after the war ? Anyway, what is the correct pre-war situation ?
3. Fleet organigram : What would the probable composition of the Glisten fleet be? Which of its ships could likely be detached to form the District 268  Task Force ?
4. Player's ship :  I need a ship allowing the group reasonnable freedom of action, matching the probable opposition but not too powerful (especially as far as ship's troops are concerned - the 35-strong marine contingent on a Kinunir would wreck the campaign PDQ, especially after GT Ground forces). I was thinking about a Gazelle-class Close escort or , even better, a type T patrol cruiser. While deck plans and background for the CE are plentiful, I still have to find detailed info about the type T. Isn'it strange, by the way, that so many illustrations show a type T in action, but that (to the best of my knowledge), GDW never published more detailed info about that naval workhorse ? I know FASA released information (and 15mm scale deckplans) about the patrol cruiser in  its Adventure class ships volume II \" boxed set, but I have never been able to lay hands on it. Can someone out there help me ?
5. GURPS Traveller \"High Guard \" :  If comparison with \" ground forces \" is any indication, I'll find all the info I need in the forthcoming GT book on the Navy. Does anyone know when it will be released ?
Thanks in advance for your kind help.
Best regards,
Thierry Maitrejean

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 10:54:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Thu Aug 22 09:54:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Absent Friends
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020822090123.009fad00@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208220939520.17700-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Thu, 22 Aug 2002, Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 02:06 PM 8/22/02 +0000, you wrote:
> 
> >My name is Mechelle. I am Bari's daughter. Thank you for the commpasion
> >that you showed toward my dad. He has gone on to heaven, Aug. 21, 2002
> >about 9:15pm.
> 
> Tonight, a glass will be raised to the General's memory.  We've lost a 
> great man and a fine friend.
> 
Mechelle... we're very sorry for your loss.

Kiri Aradia Morgan aka Azalais du Plessix Malfoy
**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 10:58:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug 22 09:58:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Absent Friends
In-Reply-To: <F170KPcOyilVvH9ku4n00026b98@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B98A6400.6AAF8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/22/02 7:06 AM, Larsen E. Whipsnade at grote1731@hotmail.com wrote:

> From: generalturokan@juno.com
>=20
> Larsen,
>=20
> My name is Mechelle. I am Bari's daughter. Thank you for the commpasion
> that you showed toward my dad. He has gone on to heaven, Aug. 21, 2002
> about 9:15pm.

The general, Chaplain Bari, will be missed.  He was a gentleman in the
truest sense of the word.  We shall not see his like again.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 11:01:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug 22 10:01:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller using other rulesets (Torg and others)
Message-ID: <200208221657.NIJ03519@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry says
>Play CORPS.  :)

I went out and bought GURPS Traveller, for upcoming face to 
face gaming.  I have a copy of ACQ - but I also have all of 
the Phoenix Command books.  PCCS slips right in to GURPS 
stats without any modification.  

Now, if the players think PCCS is too much, we use ACQ.  But 
I draw the line there as a minimum.
________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 11:05:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 22 10:05:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Absent Friends
Message-ID: <200208221703.g7MH3Egt003049@mailbag.com>

A wonderful person who will be missed. Thank you for letting us know Bill.

From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>      May I ask a small favor of you all?  Today, when you sit down to your 
> evening meal, remember Bari Stafford.  Your creed or personal beliefs don't 
> matter and how you choose do it is of no real consequence, just think of him 
> and wish him well.

I certainly will.

>      William R. Cameron
 





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 11:15:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug 22 10:15:03 2002
Subject: [TML] For the General
Message-ID: <B98A6A18.6AB04%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

The sad news about the General's passing reminded me of this poem, which
somehow seems appropriate.

The Lost Master
by Robert W. Service


"And when I come to die," he said,
"Ye shall not lay me out in state,
Nor leave your laurels at my head,
Nor cause your men of speech orate;
No monument your gift shall be,
No column in the Hall of Fame;
But just this line ye grave for me:

    `He played the game.'"


So when his glorious task was done,
It was not of his fame we thought;
It was not of his battles won,
But of the pride with which he fought;
But of his zest, his ringing laugh,
His trenchant scorn of praise or blame:
And so we graved his epitaph,

    "He played the game."


And so we, too, in humbler ways
Went forth to fight the fight anew,
And heeding neither blame nor praise,
We held the course he set us true.
And we, too, find the fighting sweet;
And we, too, fight for fighting's sake;
And though we go down in defeat,
And though our stormy hearts may break,
We will not do our Master shame:
We'll play the game, please God,

    We'll play the game.


--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 11:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Joe Webb)
Date: Thu Aug 22 10:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Absent Friends
In-Reply-To: <20020822164908.067b377b.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <B98A6B8E.7650%jwwebb@earthlink.net>

I've been pretty quite lately.  I rarely have time to read this old list,
let alone respond or even just connect.  Now, I sorely regret this.

I've lost two friends recently, and now, losing a man I've never met, and
only had a few of email conversation with - *now* I find that I'm crying
too.

Mr. Cameron, would be so kind to forward my regrets as well? I will
certainly miss his presence.  Bari made an impact on me, more than I
realized.

Joe Webb



on 8/22/02 7:49 AM, Jens Rydholm at jenry023@student.liu.se wrote:

> On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 14:06:44 +0000
> "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> forwarded sad news:
> 
>> My name is Mechelle. I am Bari's daughter. Thank you for the
>> commpasion that you showed toward my dad. He has gone on to heaven,
>> Aug. 21, 2002 about 9:15pm.
> 
> I've just turned off the music and remained quiet for a few minutes, I
> don't know exactly how long really. Tears are slowly running down my
> face.
> 
> I have several of his posts saved on disk. Feeling kind of unreal right
> now. Don't know what to say really, but please tell the family that we
> miss his creative mind, but most of all we miss himself.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 11:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Thu Aug 22 10:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] For the General
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F16C4@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

<blink...blink...>  Must have something in my eyes...

I can't think of anything more fitting.  We'll miss you, General.
Jesse


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tod Glenn [mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com]
> Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 10:15 AM
> To: TML
> Subject: [TML] For the General
> 
> 
> The sad news about the General's passing reminded me of this 
> poem, which
> somehow seems appropriate.
> 
> The Lost Master
> by Robert W. Service
> 
> 
> "And when I come to die," he said,
> "Ye shall not lay me out in state,
> Nor leave your laurels at my head,
> Nor cause your men of speech orate;
> No monument your gift shall be,
> No column in the Hall of Fame;
> But just this line ye grave for me:
> 
>     `He played the game.'"
> 
> 
> So when his glorious task was done,
> It was not of his fame we thought;
> It was not of his battles won,
> But of the pride with which he fought;
> But of his zest, his ringing laugh,
> His trenchant scorn of praise or blame:
> And so we graved his epitaph,
> 
>     "He played the game."
> 
> 
> And so we, too, in humbler ways
> Went forth to fight the fight anew,
> And heeding neither blame nor praise,
> We held the course he set us true.
> And we, too, find the fighting sweet;
> And we, too, fight for fighting's sake;
> And though we go down in defeat,
> And though our stormy hearts may break,
> We will not do our Master shame:
> We'll play the game, please God,
> 
>     We'll play the game.
 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 11:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Thu Aug 22 10:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A question concerning TML-chat and topics
In-Reply-To: <20020822051103.4678.61657.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentra
 l.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020822115037.009f9db0@mail.pi.se>

>Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 20:25:29 -0700
>Subject: Re: [TML] A question concerning TML-chat and topics
>From: Listmom <listmom@travellercentral.com>
>
>There are really (in my mind, at least) three categories of topics on the
>TML.
>1. Directly Traveller Related
>2. Not really Traveller Related, except in an oblique way
>3. Not related to Traveller and likely to offend and/or irritate many list
>members
>
>Items in the second category, I usually let ruin their course unless someon=
>e
>complains.  Often times these circle back to Traveller.

Of course, what is rather off-topic to someone can be quite on-topic to 
many more people, and that is also a problem with trying to define what is 
off-topic and what is not. Perhaps the best judge of that is the one making 
the post, not the readers.

As a side note, I would like to thank the kind member who posted his 
experience from two decades of submarine duty - it was very interesting as 
well as - I think - usable for more people than me. I'd be interested in 
hearing more tidbits about life aboard a submarine, it seems to me the best 
analogy to spacecraft life.

>Items in the third category include things like gun control, drugs, politic=
>s
>etc that have no place on the main list and often turn into flame wars.
>Since I don't like to censor people, I tend to just suggest they move it
>over to the TML-chat list, which is an open forum.

Yes, I understand. But isn't there a fourth kind - things that are related 
to Traveller and also is likely to irritate and offend many list members? 
Arguably, if a topic is considered irritating or not is not directly 
related to the actual topic but the presentation and discussion thereof, 
especially when people take it as an excuse to put forward their personal 
political preferences.

For instance, if a socialist constantly uses his posts in order to endorse 
socialism in discussions about  economy, it is bound to be a bit 
inflammatory and possibly rather uninteresting to the people not sharing 
the zeal for socialist dogmatics. In a similar way, if a libertarian 
constantly uses her posts in order to flaunt the perceived supremacy of 
libertarian belief at any time anything resembling "rights" and "laws" are 
debated, it isn't necessarily enjoyable from a general Traveller-POV either.

Discussing drug policy can be, I think, highly relevant to a Traveller 
campaign - at least as relevant as fifty posts or so discussing the 
minutiae of guns on WWII battleships or whatever. Thereby not said it is 
worth trying to discuss drug policy.

>  Is the TML-chat primarily intended to limit flame-wars or to keep the mai=
>n
> > list "on-topic"?
>
>A little of both.

Well, I think it is a commendable approach. In my opinion, it is worth 
sacrificing some potential content in order to reduce noise. But I'm not so 
sure it is the flame-generating topics which drive away people. The noise 
might be more effective in driving people away, or at least cause them not 
to read the posts or discourage them to participate.

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 12:11:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff D. Greenly)
Date: Thu Aug 22 11:11:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #974 - 26 msgs
Message-ID: <sd64f0e9.073@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>

> My name is Mechelle. I am Bari's daughter. Thank you for the
> commpasion that you showed toward my dad. He has gone on to heaven,
> Aug. 21, 2002 about 9:15pm.


St. Paul, in Corinthians, I believe, talks about how sometimes there
just aren't words to express the depth of emotion that some events
produce. He said that (and please excuse the paraphrase-It's been a long
time since Catechism) in cases like that, all that'll come out is a sigh
from the heart. St. Paul went on to say that sometimes that is the best
kind of prayer there is, because it's the most understandable to God. So
to whatever spirit or spirits you may pray to, might I suggest a sigh
from the heart? 

GruB Gott, mein Herr... May you see those stars you so eloquently wrote
about...

-Jeff

Jeffrey D. Greenly
Administrative Assistant
Sydney Banks Institute for Innate Health
PO Box 9147
Morgantown, WV 26506
(304) 293-8188
jgreenly@hsc.wvu.edu
www.sbiih.org

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 12:14:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Thu Aug 22 11:14:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Absent Friends
Message-ID: <3D652850.4C838E5D@mail.cswnet.com>

             >*
>
 >
  >

>

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 12:18:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shadowcat)
Date: Thu Aug 22 11:18:05 2002
Subject: [TML] For our Vets
Message-ID: <3D64E0ED.4034.12A1C9@localhost>

I know there are a goodly number of persons on this list that are 
either
current or past members of the armed services....

this one is for you :)

Ann Margaret and her gentlemen 

Richard, my husband, never really talked a lot about his time in 
Viet Nam
other than he had been shot by a sniper. However, he had a rather 
grainy,
8X10 black & white photo he had taken at a USO show of Ann 
Margaret with
Bob Hope in the background that was one of his treasures. 

A few years ago, Ann Margaret was doing a book signing at a local
bookstore. Richard wanted to see if he could get her to sign the 
treasured
photo so he arrived at the bookstore at 12 o'clock for the 7:30 
signing.
When I got there after work, the line went all the way around the
bookstore, circled the parking lot, and disappeared behind a parking
garage. 

Before her appearance, bookstore employees announced that she 
would sign
only her book, and no memorabilia would be permitted. Richard was
disappointed, but wanted to show her the photo and let her know 
how much
those shows meant to lonely GI's so far from home. Ann Margaret 
came out
looking as beautiful as ever and, as 2nd in line, it was soon 
Richard's
turn. He presented the book for her signature and then took out the 
photo
with many shouts from employees that she would not sign it. 
Richard said,
"I understand. I just wanted her to see it." 

She took one look at the photo, tears welled up in her eyes and 
she said,
"This is one of my gentlemen from Viet Nam and I most certainly 
will sign
his photo. I know what these men did for their country and I always 
have
time for "my gentlemen." With that, she pulled Richard across the 
table and
planted a big kiss on him. She then made quite a "to do" about the 
bravery
of the young men she met over the years, how much she admired 
them, and how
much she appreciated them. 

There weren't too many dry eyes among those close enough to 
hear. She then
posed for pictures and acted as if he was the only one there. 

Later at dinner, Richard was very quiet. When I asked if he'd like to 
talk
about it, my big strong husband broke down in tears. "That's the 
first time
anyone ever thanked me for my time in the Army," he said. 

Richard, like many others, came home to people who spit on him 
and shouted
ugly things at him. That night was a turning point for him. He 
walked a
little straighter and, for the first time in years, was proud to have 
been
a Vet. I'll never forget Ann Margaret for her graciousness and how 
much
that small act of kindness meant to my husband. I now make it a 
point to
say 'Thank You' to every person I come across who served in our 
Armed
Forces. Freedom does not come cheap and I am grateful for all 
those who
have served their country. If you'd like to pass on this story, feel free
to do so. Perhaps it will help others to become aware of how 
important it
is to acknowledge the contribution our service people make. 

(unattributed)


compliments of
Ocean's Edge



_______________________________________________
Callahans mailing list
Callahans@brightnic.com

I know there are a goodly number of persons on this list that are 
either
current or past members of the armed services....

this one is for you :)

Ann Margaret and her gentlemen 

Richard, my husband, never really talked a lot about his time in 
Viet Nam
other than he had been shot by a sniper. However, he had a rather 
grainy,
8X10 black & white photo he had taken at a USO show of Ann 
Margaret with
Bob Hope in the background that was one of his treasures. 

A few years ago, Ann Margaret was doing a book signing at a local
bookstore. Richard wanted to see if he could get her to sign the 
treasured
photo so he arrived at the bookstore at 12 o'clock for the 7:30 
signing.
When I got there after work, the line went all the way around the
bookstore, circled the parking lot, and disappeared behind a parking
garage. 

Before her appearance, bookstore employees announced that she 
would sign
only her book, and no memorabilia would be permitted. Richard was
disappointed, but wanted to show her the photo and let her know 
how much
those shows meant to lonely GI's so far from home. Ann Margaret 
came out
looking as beautiful as ever and, as 2nd in line, it was soon 
Richard's
turn. He presented the book for her signature and then took out the 
photo
with many shouts from employees that she would not sign it. 
Richard said,
"I understand. I just wanted her to see it." 

She took one look at the photo, tears welled up in her eyes and 
she said,
"This is one of my gentlemen from Viet Nam and I most certainly 
will sign
his photo. I know what these men did for their country and I always 
have
time for "my gentlemen." With that, she pulled Richard across the 
table and
planted a big kiss on him. She then made quite a "to do" about the 
bravery
of the young men she met over the years, how much she admired 
them, and how
much she appreciated them. 

There weren't too many dry eyes among those close enough to 
hear. She then
posed for pictures and acted as if he was the only one there. 

Later at dinner, Richard was very quiet. When I asked if he'd like to 
talk
about it, my big strong husband broke down in tears. "That's the 
first time
anyone ever thanked me for my time in the Army," he said. 

Richard, like many others, came home to people who spit on him 
and shouted
ugly things at him. That night was a turning point for him. He 
walked a
little straighter and, for the first time in years, was proud to have 
been
a Vet. I'll never forget Ann Margaret for her graciousness and how 
much
that small act of kindness meant to my husband. I now make it a 
point to
say 'Thank You' to every person I come across who served in our 
Armed
Forces. Freedom does not come cheap and I am grateful for all 
those who
have served their country. If you'd like to pass on this story, feel free
to do so. Perhaps it will help others to become aware of how 
important it
is to acknowledge the contribution our service people make. 

(unattributed)


compliments of
Ocean's Edge



_______________________________________________
Callahans mailing list
Callahans@brightnic.com

I know there are a goodly number of persons on this list that are 
either
current or past members of the armed services....

this one is for you :)

Ann Margaret and her gentlemen 

Richard, my husband, never really talked a lot about his time in 
Viet Nam
other than he had been shot by a sniper. However, he had a rather 
grainy,
8X10 black & white photo he had taken at a USO show of Ann 
Margaret with
Bob Hope in the background that was one of his treasures. 

A few years ago, Ann Margaret was doing a book signing at a local
bookstore. Richard wanted to see if he could get her to sign the 
treasured
photo so he arrived at the bookstore at 12 o'clock for the 7:30 
signing.
When I got there after work, the line went all the way around the
bookstore, circled the parking lot, and disappeared behind a parking
garage. 

Before her appearance, bookstore employees announced that she 
would sign
only her book, and no memorabilia would be permitted. Richard was
disappointed, but wanted to show her the photo and let her know 
how much
those shows meant to lonely GI's so far from home. Ann Margaret 
came out
looking as beautiful as ever and, as 2nd in line, it was soon 
Richard's
turn. He presented the book for her signature and then took out the 
photo
with many shouts from employees that she would not sign it. 
Richard said,
"I understand. I just wanted her to see it." 

She took one look at the photo, tears welled up in her eyes and 
she said,
"This is one of my gentlemen from Viet Nam and I most certainly 
will sign
his photo. I know what these men did for their country and I always 
have
time for "my gentlemen." With that, she pulled Richard across the 
table and
planted a big kiss on him. She then made quite a "to do" about the 
bravery
of the young men she met over the years, how much she admired 
them, and how
much she appreciated them. 

There weren't too many dry eyes among those close enough to 
hear. She then
posed for pictures and acted as if he was the only one there. 

Later at dinner, Richard was very quiet. When I asked if he'd like to 
talk
about it, my big strong husband broke down in tears. "That's the 
first time
anyone ever thanked me for my time in the Army," he said. 

Richard, like many others, came home to people who spit on him 
and shouted
ugly things at him. That night was a turning point for him. He 
walked a
little straighter and, for the first time in years, was proud to have 
been
a Vet. I'll never forget Ann Margaret for her graciousness and how 
much
that small act of kindness meant to my husband. I now make it a 
point to
say 'Thank You' to every person I come across who served in our 
Armed
Forces. Freedom does not come cheap and I am grateful for all 
those who
have served their country. If you'd like to pass on this story, feel free
to do so. Perhaps it will help others to become aware of how 
important it
is to acknowledge the contribution our service people make. 

(unattributed)


compliments of
Ocean's Edge





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 12:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Aug 22 11:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Traveller
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020822115037.009f9db0@mail.pi.se>
References: <20020822051103.4678.61657.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <5.1.1.6.0.20020822115037.009f9db0@mail.pi.se>
Message-ID: <20020822202558.39b3c4f5.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 19:36:33 +0200
Tyge Sjstrand <tyge.sjostrand@pi.se> wrote:

> As a side note, I would like to thank the kind member who posted his 
> experience from two decades of submarine duty - it was very
> interesting as well as - I think - usable for more people than me. I'd
> be interested in hearing more tidbits about life aboard a submarine,
> it seems to me the best analogy to spacecraft life.

Yes, especially spacecraft the way they are in Traveller. Long times of
quiet, a sensor ghost here, a faint glimmer on the scanners there... and
suddenly a huge explosion that shakes the ship, air rushing out, systems
going down...

Damn it, I think I shall sit down with my group and see Das Boot before
starting my campaign... it might help a lot. Especially since my
campaign is going to be low-tech.

Are there any currently available SF novels with this kind of feel to
space combat? Most of the stuff I've read has too much of an
air-to-air-combat feel.

How about SF movies?

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 12:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Aug 22 11:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller using other rulesets (Torg and others)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020822092949.00a03240@mindspring.com>
References: <20020822125054.3060bf74.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020822092949.00a03240@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020822203741.4b5593a1.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 09:32:24 -0700
Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:

> Advice..  Hmm.  Try to keep the feel of the original game.  Traveller
> is a meld of hard SF and Space Opera.  The rules need to reflect that.
>  Feel 
> free to change whatever needs to be changed.

Yes, really good point. The Torg system is well suited to heroic games,
which would make it perfect for space opera. What I need to do is to
tone down that a bit, but this shouldn't be too hard. The game makes a
difference between heroes and ordinary people, so I'll just remove the
heroes.

Since the game uses a logarithmic scale and some other stuff in that
vein, I figure that it should be easy to port FF&S into the rules
somehow. I'll just need some conversion factors and I'll be ready to go.

Any opinions on which available (for free) spaceship combat system is
the best?

 :-)

I'm looking for a system that has at least some number crunching (I like
numbers), but also provides a chance for the crew of a ship to actually
make a difference (using skills and various tricks).

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 12:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Thu Aug 22 11:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] For our Vets
Message-ID: <memo.59344@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <3D64E0ED.4034.12A1C9@localhost>
That's a beautiful story.

As some of you may know, my 'other' hobby is the study of medals, and I 
run a big website about medals of the world. I get a lot of enquiries, and 
whenever it transpires that the enquirer is a past or present member of 
the armed forces (ANYONE's armed forces) I include a word of thanks for 
their service in the reply.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 12:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John-Martin)
Date: Thu Aug 22 11:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Absent Friends
In-Reply-To: <F170KPcOyilVvH9ku4n00026b98@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHAEOCIOAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     I recieved the following message this morning and felt it should shared
with the List immediately.


From: generalturokan@juno.com

Larsen,

My name is Mechelle. I am Bari's daughter. Thank you for the commpasion
that you showed toward my dad. He has gone on to heaven, Aug. 21, 2002
about 9:15pm.

I have asked Cliff to let everyone know.

Thank you,

The Staffords

Mary, Mechelle, and Bari Jr.


     I never met Mr. Stafford, never shook his hand or slapped his back, but
he was still a dear friend of mine.  He was gracious, funny, kind, and
inventive.
     He is already missed.
     When I arrived on the List a few years ago, Mr. Stafford and I quickly
struck up a private correspondance.  He was hard at work on his Rim Route
then and shared pieces of it with me.  The scope of his work was mind
boggling, he generated and mapped a route equivalent to the Core Expeditions
route beyond the Solomani and Hivers out towards the Rim.  Seeing a post
from him in my inbox was like a holiday.  There would be some wonderful
present in the form of an attachment; maybe a map, maybe another sector's
worth of UWPs, definitely something new to make me gape in awe.
     He did this all, generating UWPs, drawing maps, keeping up with the
TML, writing notes to myself and others, all while suffering from ALS, aka
Lou Gehrig's disease.  As his body slowly died around him, he kept working.
He did not rage against the dying of the light, rage and recriminations were
not his way.  Instead, he lit a candle.  The days left to him "dwindled down
to a precious few" and he used Our Olde Game to remain connected to those
around him.  I can only hope that I will able to show the same courage when
the time comes.
     May I ask a small favor of you all?  Today, when you sit down to your
evening meal, remember Bari Stafford.  Your creed or personal beliefs don't
matter and how you choose do it is of no real consequence, just think of him
and wish him well.
     Thank you all.


     Sincerely,
     William R. Cameron

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Salute General!!!!  You always stuck me as a prime example of how to live
one's life.


jml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 13:01:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Aug 22 12:01:22 2002
Subject: [TML] For the general, repost please
Message-ID: <20020822205856.632581eb.jenry023@student.liu.se>

Could someone please send me the post with the subject "For the
general"?

I accidentally deleted it, and (being stupid), I've had my mail program
set up to really delete all mails I choose to delete. But I wanted to
move this post to my archive folder, not delete it.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 13:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Hamill)
Date: Thu Aug 22 12:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Absent Friends
In-Reply-To: <F170KPcOyilVvH9ku4n00026b98@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020822190620.62648.qmail@web21509.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> Ladies and Gentlemen,
> 
>      I recieved the following message this morning
> and felt it should shared 
> with the List immediately.
> 
> 
> From: generalturokan@juno.com
> 
> Larsen,
> 
> My name is Mechelle. I am Bari's daughter. Thank you
> for the commpasion
> that you showed toward my dad. He has gone on to
> heaven, Aug. 21, 2002
> about 9:15pm.
> 
> I have asked Cliff to let everyone know.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> The Staffords
> 
> Mary, Mechelle, and Bari Jr.
> 
> 
>      I never met Mr. Stafford, never shook his hand
> or slapped his back, but 
> he was still a dear friend of mine.  He was
> gracious, funny, kind, and 
> inventive.
>      He is already missed.
>      When I arrived on the List a few years ago, Mr.
> Stafford and I quickly 
> struck up a private correspondance.  He was hard at
> work on his Rim Route 
> then and shared pieces of it with me.  The scope of
> his work was mind 
> boggling, he generated and mapped a route equivalent
> to the Core Expeditions 
> route beyond the Solomani and Hivers out towards the
> Rim.  Seeing a post 
> from him in my inbox was like a holiday.  There
> would be some wonderful 
> present in the form of an attachment; maybe a map,
> maybe another sector's 
> worth of UWPs, definitely something new to make me
> gape in awe.
>      He did this all, generating UWPs, drawing maps,
> keeping up with the 
> TML, writing notes to myself and others, all while
> suffering from ALS, aka 
> Lou Gehrig's disease.  As his body slowly died
> around him, he kept working.  
> He did not rage against the dying of the light, rage
> and recriminations were 
> not his way.  Instead, he lit a candle.  The days
> left to him "dwindled down 
> to a precious few" and he used Our Olde Game to
> remain connected to those 
> around him.  I can only hope that I will able to
> show the same courage when 
> the time comes.
>      May I ask a small favor of you all?  Today,
> when you sit down to your 
> evening meal, remember Bari Stafford.  Your creed or
> personal beliefs don't 
> matter and how you choose do it is of no real
> consequence, just think of him 
> and wish him well.
>      Thank you all.
> 
> 
>      Sincerely,
>      William R. Cameron

Ladies and Gentlemen of the TML, a Toast!

(Stands with glass in hand)

To General Turokan!
May His Spirit Sail Ever Onward!


John
jwdh71@yahoo.com



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 13:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Thu Aug 22 12:10:03 2002
Subject: DONE  forwarding to Jens  RE: [TML] For the general, repost pleas
 e
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F16CB@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Done.
Jesse

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jens Rydholm [mailto:jenry023@student.liu.se]
> Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 11:59 AM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] For the general, repost please
> 
> 
> Could someone please send me the post with the subject "For the
> general"?
> 
> I accidentally deleted it, and (being stupid), I've had my 
> mail program
> set up to really delete all mails I choose to delete. But I wanted to
> move this post to my archive folder, not delete it.
> 
> * Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
> | jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
> | ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
> * http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 13:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark A Nordstrand)
Date: Thu Aug 22 12:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Absent Friends
References: <F170KPcOyilVvH9ku4n00026b98@hotmail.com> <20020822164908.067b377b.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <3D6537A7.86ABC82C@visi.com>

At the risk of a 'me too' posting, add my sorrow to
the growing list.  His contributions will surely be 
missed.

-- 
Mark

Safe, when taken as directed.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 13:16:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark A Nordstrand)
Date: Thu Aug 22 12:16:06 2002
Subject: [TML] OT and TML-Chat
References: <B9899B63.6A9C7%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <005501c249ab$1b62f2e0$d802bd50@martinjd> <3D650212.B69243B4@visi.com> <005101c249f5$44347960$fb1abd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3D6537FD.C69B4B3B@visi.com>

MJ Dougherty wrote:
> 
> > >
> > Problem is, what constitutes crap?  One man's work
> > of art is anther's soup can.
> 
> Yes. But I'd argue that the endless round of non-Traveller-related
> guncontrol./drugs/etc arguments are crap.
> 
> They usually have titles that sound interesting, leftover from the days
> before the topic wandered into the darkest jungle of crapness.
> 
And I would most likely argue for the very same 
points.  OTOH, I've seen some true gems filter their
way out of the absolute bowels of crappiness (even 
on this list).  

Although I may hold TML-chat in rather low regard 
(and keep most of my opinions to myself, 
thankyouverymuch), my perception is it has raised
the s/n ratio.

> As to filtering... I've just discovered I lost a critical business email
> because its title contained one of my filter words....
> 
I can only think of one word which should be filtered
on its own ("XXX"), and there's very little I'll blindly
throw out to /dev/null given the only thing worse than
my sys admin skills are my scripting skills.

ObTrav:  None to speak of.
ObTML:  Left as an exercise for the reader.....

-- 
Mark

Safe, when taken as directed.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 13:19:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Simon Brodie)
Date: Thu Aug 22 12:19:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Absent Friends
References: <F170KPcOyilVvH9ku4n00026b98@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <005601c24a11$25d65c60$8375ff3e@bloodyhellfire>

The TML is a bit more lonely without the General now.

Heartfelt condolences to his family and those who knew him better than I.

I can just imagine the dice beginning to roll up in heaven (and the
discussions beginning about 'near-C' rocks and the like).



May you shine brightly in the night sky, General, and guide lost travellers
home.

Simon


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 13:22:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Spencer)
Date: Thu Aug 22 12:22:01 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
In-Reply-To: <B97C5630.694FF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B98A85BF.4515%shadowjack@skyhighway.com>


> From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
> Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 17:58:08 -0700
> 
>>> James Dean as Rico. I know, he died in 1955. I don't care.
>> 
>> So, go ahead with Presley as Johnny Rico. With proper direction
>> Presley could have pulled it off, and it might have launched him in a
>> direction where, in that universe, he'd have never made those awful
>> movies in the 60's.
> 
> What about Sal Mineo for Johnny Rico?
> 
THAT'S the name. I knew I was forgetting a name. Yeah, he'd go well. Thanks!

-- 
William Spencer         shadowjack@skyhighway.com

"Air conditioning had a fundamental impact on the country, contributing
along with the civil rights movement...If I had to make an estimate, it's
about 50-50 in terms of the importance of the two of them." - Richard
Nathan, Director of the Rockefeller Institute of Government at the State
University of New York


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 13:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug 22 12:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] For our Vets
In-Reply-To: <memo.59344@cix.compulink.co.uk>
References: <memo.59344@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <m38z2yheyi.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson) writes:
>
> That's a beautiful story.

And, even better, a true one--check out
<http://www.snopes.com/military/margret.htm>..

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Congratulations on deriving the density of the intergalactic medium to be
10^33 kg per cubic meter.  That is 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
times more dense than if it was packed full of elephants.          --Frossie

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 13:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 22 12:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Traveller
Message-ID: <005c01c24a12$27621000$90020140@k62500>

Hello Jens Rydholm and Tyge Sj=F6strand ,

Jens summed up a standard SSBN patrol cycle quite well, with the
exception of the explosion and the aftermath. Actually, a SSBN patrol is =
pretty boring, since all they do is move about waiting to go into
action. Of course all of us hope the day never comes when we have to
launch the missiles. Standard patrol routine includes standing watch,
performing maintenance, cleaning, qualifying on various stations, =
eating,
sleeping, and watching movies. Oh, yes I forgot to mention drills that
cover various shipboard emergencies, torpedo/missile exercises, and
other items to break up the patrol.

Fast attacks on the other hand do many more exciting missions which I
cannot confirm or deny. Still when not actively on a mission the same
sort of routine as on a SSBN goes on. The main difference is that a
SSN does not have the same type of missiles as on a SSBN. "Das
Boot", "Hunt for Red October", and a couple of other submarine movies =
are decent representations of submarine life.

Tom Rux


--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/html
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 13:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (William Spencer)
Date: Thu Aug 22 12:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDMEMFCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <B98A8AC8.4516%shadowjack@skyhighway.com>


> From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 00:10:41 -0700
> To: "Traveller-Digest" <tml@travellercentral.com>
> Subject: [TML] Re: Quote (correction)
> 
>> From: William Spencer <shadowjack@skyhighway.com>
>> 
>> Now, to really capture Starship Troopers in a movie, we should draw from
> the
>> time it was written, which was...[pulls out the book, checks the publishing
>> date]...1959.
> 
>> THERE'S a proper book-to-movie adaptation.
>> 
>> I wish I had it on DVD.
> 
> You know, given recent developments in video technology, in a few years, you
> might be able to make that movie yourself.
> 
> --Glenn

Well, I'm working on it, but the productions classes are tight here at UCSC,
and they're renovating the studios this year. They don't seem to be offering
Retroactive Cinema: Movies That Should Have Existed class this year, though
I suppose I could check with the Physics department.

I did get a seat in the Muppet Magic lecture, though.

> From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net>
> Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 08:30:09 -0400

>Hence the current drive by various Hollywood based industries for laws
>calling for *extremely* tight controls on things like CD & DVD burners. From
>what I understand, the Phantom Edit, and the Phantom Re-edit were not
>well received by the studio...

>Hmmm....this is an interesting hobby for a crew during Jump, film making.
>Shoot scenes against a blue screen, add the background in the editing process.
>Re-edit to match the culture of the planet you're en-route to.

I like it, and it does bring up interesting questions.

There's a Roger Zelazny story where a background point is since only STL
space travel exists, copyright in the colonies has kind of become a moot
point. Colonists generally copy and produce local editions of any book that
comes through. Since travel time between planets is measured in centuries,
you can probably assume that the copyright has already expired when it gets
to you...and if it hasn't, you'll be dead and dust by the time the lawyers
on Earth find out and send someone out to deal with you...

Now, travel times in Traveller aren't THAT bad, but still... How does the
Imperium handle IP protection? Or do they even bother? Or does it differ
from region to region. Or do we use "Stempel architecture"? :)

I think of the hoops Gilbert and Sullivan had to go through between America
and England...
-- 
William Spencer         shadowjack@skyhighway.com

"Air conditioning had a fundamental impact on the country, contributing
along with the civil rights movement...If I had to make an estimate, it's
about 50-50 in terms of the importance of the two of them." - Richard
Nathan, Director of the Rockefeller Institute of Government at the State
University of New York


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 13:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Thu Aug 22 12:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS America - Naval crew accommodation
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F16CC@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Here's some info my cousin sent.  He served aboard USS America during the Gulf War.
Jesse

Begin Paste
===========
	*scads* of room... HAH thats a good one! Whoever wrote that note obviously
visited an aircraft carrier with no AIRCRAFT on it. We had 9 squadrons on
board. 2 Tomcats, 2 Hornet, 1 Intruder, 1 Prowler, 1 Hawkeye, 1 Viking and a
Helo, not to mention the CoD's and visiting helos from other ships, all in
all between 70 and 80 A/C, add ALL the spare parts, support and maintenance
equipment and things get REALLY crowded. Start carts, tow tractors, tow bars
(aka shin splitters), engine stands, bomb carts, A/C jacks, parts containers
(have you ever seen the transmission for a helo?), Hydraulic Jennys, winches
of every conceivable shape and those wicked tie down chains, GSE equipment
of every conceivable shape and that's just your workspace.
	Personal space...Yeah right...Try the head (bathroom) that's most
inconvenient to get too and you MAY get some temporary personal space to
take a dump. That's it! During Desert Storm I had a rack with about 6" of
noseroom 'cause there was some electrical conduits running in the space
above my rack. The racks were stacked 3 high and in places the aisle was
about 18"-24" across. So figure 12 guys 10' x 6' space. I never had to hot
bunk THANK GOD.
	You shared facilities with nearly everyone on the ship and had to transit
common spaces to do it. There was nothing to say you had to use a specific
shower, though you could get shot for using the admirals shower, and as an
enlisted man showing up in Officers Country for a shower was not a good
idea. In fact there were 'reliable' showers that consistently had hot water
that I would trek too after work. Those were generally closer to where
'ships' company were berthed, if you catch my drift.
	At sea we worked 80 hour weeks. 12 on 12 off! Troubleshooters (white
shirts) worked flight-ops during the war. Which made for a LONG day when
sorties started at 8am and ended at 2am, you do the math.
	Recreation depended on the man. I liked reading, Grisham novels at the
time, sometimes I'd do 200-300 pages in a sitting. Other guys played console
games and setup tournaments. With each man choosing a team. At the time no
one could have San Francisco 'cause they were too good.
	Officers, depending on rank had varying comfort levels and usually bunked
by rank. Of course the ships captain and the admiral had the best available.
Up to LtCmdr bunked 2 to a room. I can't remember for sure, but it seemed
CO's, CMDR and above had there own rooms. The Admiral has the Hardwood table
and crushed velvet chairs as well as his own Galley and wait staff. Must be
nice!

	Anyhow that's it for now. If I sparked any ideas or you need clarification
let me know.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 13:51:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 22 12:51:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Traveller
In-Reply-To: <20020822190006.24184.38691.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17hxwR-0001sW-0Y@anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net>

> Are there any currently available SF novels with this kind of feel to
> space combat? Most of the stuff I've read has too much of an
> air-to-air-combat feel.
> 
> How about SF movies?

One of the Star Trek films (The Undiscovered Country I think) was supposed to have a battle with a 'submarine feel'. IIRC it was the one towards the end, with the cloaked Klingon ship, which also had a sub like interior (lack of space, a periscope-like instrument, etc.)

Rob.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 13:53:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 22 12:53:55 2002
Subject: [TML] Absent Friends
In-Reply-To: <20020822162007.16656.96087.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17hxyn-0000tj-00@mclean.mail.mindspring.net>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Ladies and Gentlemen,
> 
>  I recieved the following message this morning and felt it should shared 
> with the List immediately.
> 
> From: generalturokan@juno.com
> 
> Larsen,
> 
> My name is Mechelle. I am Bari's daughter. Thank you for the
> commpasion that you showed toward my dad. He has gone on to heaven,
> Aug. 21, 2002 about 9:15pm.

Damn, I haven't seen any posts from him for a little while, but didn't 
give it a 2nd thought.  He'll most definitely be missed.  

May the gods bless his spirit and give him a wonderful rebirth.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 13:57:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Thu Aug 22 12:57:05 2002
Subject: [TML] USS America - Naval crew accommodation
Message-ID: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F16CD@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>

Whoops!  Sorry about the followup flag (for those that it shows up).
Jesse
 
> Here's some info my cousin sent.  He served aboard USS 
> America during the Gulf War.
> Jesse
<snip>

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 14:32:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 22 13:32:04 2002
Subject: [TML] HGS ships Q&A
Message-ID: <bb.24fa5e2e.2a96a418@aol.com>

 >Simple answer; virtually every published High Guard design is broken. The 
 >ones in Fighting Ships are generally particularly badly broken, but I've 
not 
 >found a published "legal" book 5 ship yet (even the Regal battlecruiser in 
 >TCS is broken, and that one has a worksheet!).

I looked over the vessels in Supplement 7 Traders and Gunboats.  The 400 ton 
Subsidized Merchant was actually 240 tons, and the 200 ton Far Trader was 
actually 400 tons.  It was disappointing.  I've drawn deck plans for a fair 
number of vessels now, and I pride myself on making the vessels conform to HG 
down to the last ton.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 14:35:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug 22 13:35:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Absent Friends
Message-ID: <200208222033.NIR00780@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

snead says
>Damn, I haven't seen any posts from him for a little while, 
>but didn't give it a 2nd thought.  He'll most definitely be 
>missed.  

Don't call me psionic, but I had a feeling a couple of days 
ago...
________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 14:39:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Thu Aug 22 13:39:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Submarines and Traveller
In-Reply-To: <20020822190006.24184.38691.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentr
 al.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020822222515.00a36b20@mail.pi.se>

>From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se>
>Subject: [TML] Submarines and Traveller
>
>Yes, especially spacecraft the way they are in Traveller. Long times of
>quiet, a sensor ghost here, a faint glimmer on the scanners there... and
>suddenly a huge explosion that shakes the ship, air rushing out, systems
>going down...

A bit short times out, perhaps. Maybe a slower FTL and in-system Traveller=
=20
version would be even better, one relying almost entirely on missiles and=20
stealth and not on spinal mounts...

>Damn it, I think I shall sit down with my group and see Das Boot before
>starting my campaign... it might help a lot. Especially since my
>campaign is going to be low-tech.

Try to get the long TV-series version. By far the best sub movie I've seen,=
=20
and one of the best war movies too. No patriotism, no flag-toting messing=20
it up. There is a book too, by Lothar-G=FCnther Buchheim (he served on a=20
German sub during WWII), which the movie is based upon. It has been=20
translated to Swedish, so you likely can find it at the library.

>Are there any currently available SF novels with this kind of feel to
>space combat? Most of the stuff I've read has too much of an
>air-to-air-combat feel.

Or sail-to-sail feel... No, I don't know any right away.

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 14:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug 22 13:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS America - Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F16CC@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <B98A9A14.6AB40%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/22/02 12:44 PM, DeGraff, Jesse at Jesse.DeGraff@netapp.com wrote:

> Here's some info my cousin sent.  He served aboard USS America during the=
 Gulf
> War.
> Jesse
>=20

[snip]

This is great.  Thanks for posting.  Most Traveller ships seem way too
roomy. =20

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 14:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Thu Aug 22 13:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Absent Friends
Message-ID: <Springmail.0994.1030049669.0.39443900@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>

Is there any way someone could ensure the General's work is saved, if his
family permits? It was a labor of love and perseverance in the face of his
illness and I would hate to see such an incredible effort lost.

Mr. Whipsnade, thank you, sir, for sharing the email with us. It allowed this
list to come together in sorrow and respect for someone who was rare indeed.

God bless the General and those he left behind.

David Smart

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 15:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 22 14:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] more boat deck plans
Message-ID: <132.12cf5104.2a96abc3@aol.com>

Added a few more deckplans for small craft.  Located at

http://members.aol.com/exog/myhomepage/small.html

If anyone finds them useful please let me know.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 15:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug 22 14:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Absent Friends
References: <Springmail.0994.1030049669.0.39443900@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <006c01c24a21$cb332ca0$cf09bd50@martinjd>

>
> >
> God bless the General and those he left behind.

Something just shot back into my tiny mind... one of the only two poems I
know...

"Comrade, grant me one request,
When death my hours shall number.
Carry my body back to France,
In French soil let me slumber.

My Cross of the Legion with its crimson band,
Lay close to my heart for a neighbour.
And place my carbine in my hand,
And buckle on my sabre.

Then o'er my grave shall the Emperor ride,
'Mid thunder of hoofbeats ascending.
And armed to the teeth I shall rise from my grave,
My Emperor! My Emperor, defending."

Make of it what you will.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 15:13:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Aug 22 14:13:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Absent Friends
In-Reply-To: <F170KPcOyilVvH9ku4n00026b98@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D65FBC3.6972.24CA26@localhost>

On 22 Aug 2002 at 14:06, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
 
> From: generalturokan@juno.com
> 
> Larsen,
> 
> My name is Mechelle. I am Bari's daughter. Thank you for the commpasion
> that you showed toward my dad. He has gone on to heaven, Aug. 21, 2002
> about 9:15pm.

I'm sorry to hear that, he will be missed.

To absent friends.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 15:16:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Aug 22 14:16:17 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <F225xdSeKSGtAk6zGKk00010373@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D65FBC3.1901.24C9D6@localhost>

On 22 Aug 2002 at 13:35, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

> Mr. Boleyn,
> 
>      The torpedos put her under most definitely.  The 32 survivors
> of the Scharnhorst were pretty much in agreement that none of the
> 14" hits penetrated the belt armor.  However, it was that single 14"
> shell coming down through the side of the hull and temporarily
> knocking out half her boilers that allowed the RN DDs to catch up. 
> The sea state was so poor that Scharnhorst was running away even
> from the destroyers. 

It muist have been a nightmare on those destroyers, and being able to 
actually get torpedos into the water and running in those conditions 
would've quite tricky I think.

>      She did lose part of her radar capability during the two
> brushes with the convoy's cruiser escorts, but the author and the RN
> believe that it was German paranoia regarding radar use that limited
> it's role.  The Germans were convinced that the Allies tracked
> vessels via their radar emissions rather then by radar of their own.
>  This led them to severely limit the use of their own radars,
> anticipating the now familiar "radiate and die" rule of thumb. 

Well given what used to happen to their subs, they had some 
justification.

>      The boiler wrecking 14" hit was fired at by Duke of York at
> extreme range and under radar control.  It was part of the last two
> salvos the BB fired during that part of the engagement.  Until the
> range on Duke of York's radar began dropping as the Scharnhorst lost
> speed, Fraser truly believed the German BC had slipped the noose. 

It's actually probably reasonable to call her a BB, given that only her 
armament was sub-par, and that was supposed to have been changed to 6 x 
15" guns, but the war intervened.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 15:21:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Aug 22 14:21:24 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020822113421.027af598@mail.qrc.com>
References: <3D64BBD0.6996.4C81F9@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D65FD54.30153.2AE769@localhost>

On 22 Aug 2002 at 12:10, Derek Wildstar wrote:

> The Iowa's deck armor is about 8" (split between three armored decks, the 
> thickest of which is 4.75").  Their main belt is 12.1" angled at 19 
> degrees, and was supposed to be designed to stop the lightweight (2200lb) 
> shells thrown by a US 16"/45 gun.
> 
> This compares very well with contemporary ships of comparable size: the 
> Bismark class featured a 12.6" main belt, and 6.7" of deck armor (split 
> between two decks, the thickest of which was 4.7"), and England's King 
> George V class had 15.4" of main belt, and 7" deck armor.  Even the Yamato 
> class main belt was 16".

However they had quite a bit of machinery rather closer to the belt 
than was considered wise because there was so much of it. They also had 
the "A" turret's magazine dangerously close to the skin because of the 
very fine forward hull, and their torpedo protection would've okay in 
the 1920s, but against Japanese torpedos in the 1940s was totally 
inadequate.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 15:26:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Aug 22 14:26:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Absent Friends
References: <F170KPcOyilVvH9ku4n00026b98@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D655650.7040002@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> Ladies and Gentlemen,
> 
>     I recieved the following message this morning and felt it should 
> shared with the List immediately.
> 

Sad to hear another bright voice stilled.

Please convey to his family that he will not be soon forgotten; his was 
a welcome and loved presence here.


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 15:29:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Aug 22 14:29:15 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020822122942.a7e8758886eb463787a6d38a8210254b.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <3D65FFB5.7651.343206@localhost>

On 22 Aug 2002 at 12:31, Cheng Tseng wrote:

> >> One might point out that Vanguard had a transom, without it she'd have 
> >> struggled to make 27.
> >
> >That's called clever design. :)
> 
> Damn shame she did it only to hoist around thirty year old turrets and guns.

Well the turrets were up-armoured, and as they were reliable and easy 
to operate with a decent rate of fire, why change them? The guns 
could've done with an ungrade, though - they had good penetration, but 
by WWII their range was strictly average.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 15:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Aug 22 14:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS America - Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <B98A9A14.6AB40%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F16CC@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <3D660145.1339.3A4EA8@localhost>

On 22 Aug 2002 at 13:39, Tod Glenn wrote:

> This is great.  Thanks for posting.  Most Traveller ships seem way too
> roomy.  

It's just occurred to me that in CT the stateroom size included all the 
life-support, etc., for the occupant(s), which would reduce the useable 
space quite a bit. It would also explain why officers and paying 
customers tended to be unhappy with such accomodation - the life-
support was under that much more strain.

>From MT on life-support, gravitic compensation, etc., were split out, 
but the staterooms didn't get any smaller or more cramped (though IIRC 
FF&S1 allowed you to use small staterooms as the standard, halving crew 
quarter volumes).

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 16:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Aug 22 15:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Traveller
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E7A@USCHM203>

In the past few years, I've been treating space combat in pretty much the
same way. I figure a ship that doesn't want to be seen is going to be hard
to find. And active scanner use will be kept to a minimum, at least in the
early stages of a battle.
I figure the beginning of a battle will consist of widely scattered scouts
searching for the enemy fleet, and both fleets maneuvering to their best
advantage before trying to get in the first blow.
Once the battle starts, or one fleet realizes it has been detected, everyone
goes active and the whole system lights up in a very bright but silent
slugging match.

The only other movie than ST Undiscovered Country that comes to mind with
anything remotely like sub combat was Wing Commander, when the carrier is
hiding in the asteroid crater while Kilrathi ships search for it. 
I think this was an inside joke more than anything, as the crew huddles in
darkness, and you can hear the Kilrathi "scanners" outside the hull, and
there stands Jurgen Prochnow, star of "Das Boot", looking up anxiously at
the bulkhead above.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 16:16:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 22 15:16:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Traveller
Message-ID: <f2.2087302b.2a96bc67@cs.com>

In a message dated 8/22/02 1:31:08 PM Central Daylight Time, 
jenry023@student.liu.se writes: 
> Are there any currently available SF novels with this kind of feel to
> space combat? Most of the stuff I've read has too much of an
> air-to-air-combat feel.
> 
> How about SF movies?
> 
> * Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm
The only one that immediately comes to mind is C. J. Cherryh's novel, 
"Rimrunners." Also included in that book are some of the better examples of 
Powered Armor and a Stealth Recon spaceship.

Doug Grimes


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 16:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Aug 22 15:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Absent Friends
References: <20020822212605.28293.78240.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <002401c24a2b$06c33220$8c5d8690@computer>

> From: "Simon Brodie" 
> I can just imagine the dice beginning to roll up in heaven (and the
> discussions beginning about 'near-C' rocks and the like).

That might not be the kind of topic we want discussed in heaven...

Seriously, though, the General will be missed. 

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 16:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 22 15:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] deckplans classic scoutship
Message-ID: <22.2da11dc6.2a96c343@aol.com>

Also here are some deckplans for the classic scout ship at

http://members.aol.com/exog/myhomepage/scout.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 16:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug 22 15:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Absent Friends
In-Reply-To: <002401c24a2b$06c33220$8c5d8690@computer>
References: <20020822212605.28293.78240.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <002401c24a2b$06c33220$8c5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <m3y9ayv7by.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

I remember how eager Turokan was to post all his many ship designs in
the recent Rodeo, and how (justly) proud he was of his magnum opus.  I
recall that it was all typed in painfully and slowly, due to his
handicap.  He was a good man.

I'll lift a glass in his memory tonight, and have him remembered at
the Divine Liturgy on Sunday.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the
poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal
bread.                                          --Anatole France

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 16:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Thu Aug 22 15:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: traveller font
In-Reply-To: <20020822162007.16656.96087.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020822162007.16656.96087.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <4lqamu8ovee9i2r05jb4du3s19cco21aq6@4ax.com>

On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 09:20:07 -0700, Ludwig <mariachi@mac.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 15:07:53 +0200
>rowland@rogueapp.com wrote:

>> Hey everyone,
>> first post to the TML, so here goes...
 
>> What font is used to write the word "Traveller" from the LBBs?

>Optima (oblique or italic). 

>See here:  <http://www.adobe.com/type/browser/P/P_006.jhtml>

>Don't know where to get a free version, but you might look for knockoffs named "Ultima" or "Optimus" or somesuch.

Or Zapf Humanist BT - a reworking of the font by the original designer; the
rework was specifically to preserve the character of the font in electronic
media.

--
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 17:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Thu Aug 22 16:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Absent Friends
References: <20020822162007.16656.96087.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D656FED.2C18E862@ameritech.net>


> From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
> Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 14:06:44 +0000

> Ladies and Gentlemen,
> 
>      I recieved the following message this morning and felt it should shared
> with the List immediately.
> 
> From: generalturokan@juno.com
> 
> Larsen,
> 
> My name is Mechelle. I am Bari's daughter. Thank you for the commpasion
> that you showed toward my dad. He has gone on to heaven, Aug. 21, 2002
> about 9:15pm.

At the head of the officers table in the barracks mess of a regiment on
a backwater planet at the edge of charted space stands a full bird
colonel, "Mess sergeant do your duty." 

The Sergeant Major, the only person present in full formal uniform rises
to his feet and begins, "In honor of the memory of companionship and in
accordance with the customs of this mess we hereby raise our glass to
drink to the memory of the Grand Old Man General Turokan. May his soul
rest."

And though Private Shayne would never call himself a religuous man he
can only add, "Amen."

Larsen, please convey my condolences to the good General's family,

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 17:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Thu Aug 22 16:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A question concerning TML-chat and topics
Message-ID: <20020822232058.44455.qmail@web11302.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Tyge Sjstrand <tyge.sjostrand@pi.se> writes:
> Is the TML-chat primarily intended to limit flame-
> wars or to keep the main list "on-topic"?

As far as I can tell, it is meant to be invoked when a
poster dislikes a thread.  Why he doesn't just kill
the thread is beyond my limited capacity to
understand.
END QUOTE

Some of us get the digest and use web based mail
accounts. The List-Mom has the right policy if you ask
me.

P.s. Gimme a L, gimme a I, gimme a S, gimme a T, gimme
a Mom. What da ya got? List-Mom, yah yah yah.

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://digital.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Digital How To
- Get the best out of your PC!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 17:25:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Thu Aug 22 16:25:04 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <20020822191836.5518f56cb4884d43b5aa9ac858ffdb42.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>> The Iowa's deck armor is about 8" (split between three armored decks, the 
>> thickest of which is 4.75").  Their main belt is 12.1" angled at 19 
>> degrees, and was supposed to be designed to stop the lightweight (2200lb) 
>> shells thrown by a US 16"/45 gun.
>> 
>> This compares very well with contemporary ships of comparable size: the 
>> Bismark class featured a 12.6" main belt, and 6.7" of deck armor (split 
>> between two decks, the thickest of which was 4.7"), and England's King 
>> George V class had 15.4" of main belt, and 7" deck armor.  Even the Yamato 
>> class main belt was 16".

>However they had quite a bit of machinery rather closer to the belt 
>than was considered wise because there was so much of it. They also had 
>the "A" turret's magazine dangerously close to the skin because of the 
>very fine forward hull, and their torpedo protection would've okay in 
>the 1920s, but against Japanese torpedos in the 1940s was totally 
>inadequate.

Which, unfortunately, means little.

Any ship's torpedo defenses (Even the YAMATO's.) would not have stopped a
Type 93.  While the never built MONTANAs had probably the best torpedo
defense scheme the US was seriously considering builting into battleships,
the IOWAs were not exactly helpless - their torpedo protection scheme was
based on the SOUTH DAKOTAs IIRC, which was regarded as a needed improvement
over the NORTH CAROLINAs.

Now consider an imbalance argument had BuShips been forced to go with 14"
guns....

C.T.


"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 17:27:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Thu Aug 22 16:27:52 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <20020822192035.dff14b3381fb4be2b064a948fcf2d3e5.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>> >> One might point out that Vanguard had a transom, without it she'd have 
>> >> struggled to make 27.
>> >
>> >That's called clever design. :)
>> 
>> Damn shame she did it only to hoist around thirty year old turrets and guns.
>
>Well the turrets were up-armoured, and as they were reliable and easy 
>to operate with a decent rate of fire, why change them? The guns 
>could've done with an ungrade, though - they had good penetration, but 
>by WWII their range was strictly average.

Okay, the turrets were suited to the job.  Building a new battleship just so
you can lug around old guns (Instead of say, put them in fixed batteries to
duel it out with the relatives across the Channel at Calais.), was something
of a waste.

Did the RN ever get anywhere developing the new pattern 16" guns that were
suppose to go onto LION and TEMERAIRE?

C.T.


"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 18:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (clifford n linehan)
Date: Thu Aug 22 17:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The Passing of the General
Message-ID: <20020822.172903.-286267.1.cnl.rubicon@juno.com>

Greetings to Everyone,

	As many of you already know.

	Bari Z. Stafford Sr. aka: General Turokan has passed away from
Amyotropic Lateral Sclerosis (A.L.S.) aka Lou
Gherig's disease on Aug. 21, 2002 around 9:15pm.

	I shall continue to host and maintain his Rim Route Project: Turokan&#8217;s
Expedition to the Rim on my web site.

Thank you for your time,

Clifford Linehan - cnl.rubicon@juno.com
------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.geocities.com/traveller_core_route
Developed the Zhodani Core Route & Fleet.
Host for Turokan&#8217;s Expedition to the Rim.


________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 19:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 22 18:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Drop Tanks and the Gazelle "family" (was Re: HGS Ships Q&A)
Message-ID: <5b.2cd13ae5.2a96e672@aol.com>

Mike West writes:

>Specifically for the Gazelle, it is NOT a 400 ton ship.  It
>is only a 300 ton ship that uses 100 ton drop tanks.  As such
>it should only be able to mount 3 turrets, not 4.  (Oddly, the
>Fiery is OK with the 4 turrets.)

The Fiery doesn't drop its tanks, so it's always 400 tons, IIRC.

As for the Gazelle and Drop Tanks in general, those are potent words of 
argument summoning almost as dread as "Near-C Ro...  oh sorry, almost brought 
on world-wide armageddon...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 19:18:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 22 18:18:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Not quite Re: Drugs
Message-ID: <179.d57e6ce.2a96e73a@aol.com>

Mexal writes:

>Most people think I don't drink at all, because I don't mix alcohol with
>role-playing. 

yah. Stirring a drink with a particularly tall miniature, or worse, one of my 
rulebooks, just doesn't work well at all...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 19:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Thu Aug 22 18:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020822222515.00a36b20@mail.pi.se>
Message-ID: <000001c24a46$785fb6e0$6501a8c0@Darla>

On reflection, I think that maybe submarine combat is a better model for
Traveller space combat than surface naval engagements.  

The current battleship thread made me think about the concept of immune
zones -- during the days of the battleship an "immune zone" was the
ranges relative to an opponent between which (in theory) his shells
could not penetrate your ship's armor.  At ranges longer than the immune
zone, plunging shells would penetrate deck armor; and at shorter ranges
the belt armor was vulnerable.

I was about to post a question asking if the "immune zone" was a live
concept in Imperial Navy tactics, but I think that the answer is no.
Especially after the introduction of meson weapons, a starship that can
be hit can be damaged, and armor penetration is not too much affected by
range. 

One truism that I think will be as true for a space navy as it is for
contemporary naval forces is to "attack effectively first".  Tactics
will revolve around detecting, tracking and attacking the enemy with
deadly effect before he can do the same to you.  With long ranges making
the MK-I eyeball largely irrelevant as a sensor, battle will be a blind
man's bluff of electronics.

The same could be said about current surface naval combat, but the
similarity between starship and submarine is that both operate in an
environment that their crews cannot survive in without aid.  Add in the
submarine-like confined spaces in a fighting starship and the grim fact
that most, if not all, of the crew will share their vessel's fate if it
is destroyed...

Tom Barnes


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 20:01:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Aug 22 19:01:52 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <F234jc0D543TuylJc0x000001d4@hotmail.com>

From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

     "It muist have been a nightmare on those destroyers, and being able to 
actually get torpedos into the water and running in those conditions 
would've quite tricky I think."


Mr. Boleyn,

     The author mentions the crew of one DD finally LASHED themselves 
between the torp tubes in order to stay at general quarters.  There were 
also a number of crewmen washed overboard.
     A Norwegian crewed DD closed so close to Scharnhorst during their 
torpedo run that they were able to open up with small arms at the German 
ship.

     "Well given what used to happen to their subs, they had some
justification. (referring to the detection of radar signals, LEW)

     Didn't one of the earlier radar warning devices issued to U-boats 
actually act as a beacon for Allied radars?

     "It's actually probably reasonable to call her a BB, given that only 
her armament was sub-par, and that was supposed to have been changed to 6 x 
15" guns, but the war intervened."

     That upgrade would have given her quite a punch.  It's still surprising 
how close a thing the Battle of North Cape was.  The Germans made nearly 
every operational error they could, Scharnhorst was seperated from her 
escorting DDs early on, the RN was reading the German's minds via Huff-Duff 
and real-time Enigma and also had concentrated four CAs, a DD squadron, and 
a BB just to trap Scharnhorst with a convoy as bait, and the Scharnhorst 
still nearly got away.  One shell hit tipped the balance.
     Just how poorly did the Germans behave during the sortie?  Mr. Tseng 
aluded to it in one of his posts.  After twice tangling with three RN CAs 
while attempting to attack the convoy and after picking up SIGINT indicating 
that another force was closing, Scharnhorst was caught by Duke of York with 
her turrets still laid fore and aft!
     One author I've read does point out that the Scharnhorst's crew had 
been awake for close to 72 hours by then.  Which brings this back to Our 
Olde Game:

ObTrav - The TNE space combat system had penalties if your crew had been a 
battle stations for a given period of time.  How have you handled long 
periods of enforced watchfulness in your games?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 20:05:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 22 19:05:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: LLellewyloly q&a
Message-ID: <8c.1d06ed0d.2a96f1ae@aol.com>

Phill writes:

>> Question Two:
>> If the humans didn't like the Dandies, why bother with the atmospheric
>> experimentation?
>
>
>Where is the experimentation story from? If it's supposed to be on the
>dandies they are native and can already breath quite fine on Junidy.
>

The experimentation story is mine, and is for the opposite reason. 
Respiratory systems designed to survive in Junidy's rather thin air 
over-oxygenate and get hyperbaric in air humans consider normal.  The 
gene-manipulation was intended to allow the Llellewyloly to operate in 
environments humans considered comfortable. One of, IMTU, the periodic 
"cultural misunderstandings" in Junidy's history led to all the modified 
Llellewyloly leaving the human cities and returning to the wilds. This 
allows, in-game, for a Llellewyloly of any background (modern city-bred or 
wild) to have the gene and thus be playable PC material.

The Humans on Junidy are high tech compared to the Llellewyloly because they 
need to be just to survive. The Llellewyloly who chose to share the human 
cities with them also operate, and could potentially maintain, this same TL, 
though large parts of they really don't need. There is still a sizeable 
minority of the Llellewyloly population that lives wild at TL3.

By law, the humans and Llellwyloly of Junidy are equal. Animal Farm rules 
apply, however (ie. Some are more equal than others).  The glass ceiling, 
IMTU, comes and goes over the decades, and is often related to how much of 
their own cultural baggage each Llellewyloly is willing to abandon to advance.

My Contact essay is found at http://members.aol.com/gypsycomet/index.html by 
following the essays link...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 20:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 22 19:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Absent Friends
Message-ID: <136.12db7278.2a96f5ee@aol.com>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Ladies and Gentlemen,
> 
>  I recieved the following message this morning and felt it should shared
> with the List immediately.
>
> From: generalturokan@juno.com
> 
> Larsen,
>
> My name is Mechelle. I am Bari's daughter. Thank you for the
> commpasion that you showed toward my dad. He has gone on to heaven,
> Aug. 21, 2002 about 9:15pm.

The General was a resident of California, and of a charming city called 
Stockton, if I recall one of his early posts.  All of us attending one of the 
events in the SF Bay Area this Labor Day, be it WorldCon or ConQuest (SF and 
game conventions, respectively), should find time for a drink to absent 
friends.  Any takers, and suggestions as to a time and place at each 
gathering?

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 20:24:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 22 19:24:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Type R (was Re: HGS ships Q&A)
Message-ID: <1bb.53f1d77.2a96f650@aol.com>

Flykiller writes:

>I looked over the vessels in Supplement 7 Traders and Gunboats.  The 400
>ton Subsidized Merchant was actually 240 tons

The Type R actually works out very well when you remember that the cargo deck 
is double height, and thus double the volume...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 20:27:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Thu Aug 22 19:27:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Absent Friends
In-Reply-To: <002401c24a2b$06c33220$8c5d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNEENDEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

He is in my prayers and thoughts. May we all go as gracefully to our final
resting, with dignity and with the thoughts and respect of others to follow
in our shadow.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 20:32:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Aug 22 19:32:09 2002
Subject: [TML] USS America - Naval crew accommodation
Message-ID: <F161n8fteSA0qggdhkl00014f7c@hotmail.com>

From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>

     "This is great.  Thanks for posting.  Most Traveller ships seem way too 
roomy."


Mr. Glenn,

     This thread has been fascinating, but I'm afraid all the numbers and 
descriptions are a bit overwhelming.  One shipmate of mine summed up 
shipboard life for his ladyfriend rather well:

     "We work in a heavy industrial setting, like a foundry, mill, or 
refinery, and we live in the same factory in which we work.  Our living 
quarters resemble your high school gym locker room; in the amount of privacy 
you recieve, in the amount of room you're alloted, and, especially, in the 
smell."

     All that being said, I had four hot meals a day if I wanted them, hot 
running water 24/7 (engineering has it's perks), room for books, access to a 
TV and VCR, and plenty of electricity.
     Everyone of those things beats the hell out of a foxhole.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 20:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug 22 19:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <000001c24a46$785fb6e0$6501a8c0@Darla>
Message-ID: <B98AF11F.6ABA4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/22/02 6:43 PM, Thomas Barnes at twb3@charter.net wrote:

> On reflection, I think that maybe submarine combat is a better model for
> Traveller space combat than surface naval engagements.
>=20
> The current battleship thread made me think about the concept of immune
> zones -- during the days of the battleship an "immune zone" was the
> ranges relative to an opponent between which (in theory) his shells
> could not penetrate your ship's armor.  At ranges longer than the immune
> zone, plunging shells would penetrate deck armor; and at shorter ranges
> the belt armor was vulnerable.
>=20
> I was about to post a question asking if the "immune zone" was a live
> concept in Imperial Navy tactics, but I think that the answer is no.
> Especially after the introduction of meson weapons, a starship that can
> be hit can be damaged, and armor penetration is not too much affected by
> range.=20

There's a big factor in space combat that gets frequently ignored.
Considering the distanced involved and the acceleration, sensor lag will
become a factor.

With passive sensors, you'll only have to deal with the lag in one
direction. With active sensors, that lag gets doubled.  Unless the ranges
are close (and there's no reason for them to be) you'll be constantly
dealing with information about where your opponent _was_.  Say he's 150,000
km distant.  With active sensors, your data is a second old.  Assuming he's
at a dead stop, but has 6G of acceleration, by the time your meson beam get=
s
there (another 1/2 second flight time) he has moved 66 meters in any
direction.  If he's a smaller vessel, that might mean a complete miss.

Your pinging away, so he's launched ARMs that are homing in on you.  You go
quiet, but his missiles have their own sensons, and while they're not as
fast as an energy beam, they can make mid course correction and still have
higher acceleration than you do.

Anyway, I personally think the whole space opera dog fight is pretty
unrealistic.  More likely, you'll never see the enemy.  You may only realiz=
e
he's out their when your ship explodes because he's been tracking you with
passives and takes his shot while you're on a nice, predictable course.

Just my opinion. YMMV

Tod


--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 20:57:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Aug 22 19:57:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
Message-ID: <F157PcpAhOZtGhwQB9Z000207e6@hotmail.com>

From: "Thomas Barnes" <twb3@charter.net>

     "On reflection, I think that maybe submarine combat is a better model 
for Traveller space combat than surface naval engagements."


Mr. Barnes,

     Given the (limited) 3D nature of subsurface combat, sure.  But, OTU 
warships have a far greater weapons "density" than even the latest SSNs.  
I've mused over and toyed with Real World models for OTU space combat ever 
since LBB 2 and still haven't come up with one I really like.
     Aerial combat has the 3d nature we need, but the platforms have no 
where near the number weapons required.  Surface naval combat approaches the 
weapon "density" we'd like, but is rather limited dimensionally. Finally, 
submarine warfare splits the difference between the previous two, but still 
doesn't quite feel right because of the sensor issue.

     "I was about to post a question asking if the "immune zone" was a live 
concept in Imperial Navy tactics, but I think that the answer is no.  
Especially after the introduction of meson weapons, a starship that can be 
hit can be damaged, and armor penetration is not too much affected by 
range."

     There may be number of immune zones for every class of vessel, each 
depending on both the opponents faced and weapons deployed.  ForEx: A 
Gazelle may fight a Vargr corsair with immune zones A, B, and C in mind and 
fight a Zho Shiva-class with immune zones X, Y, and Z in mind.

     "One truism that I think will be as true for a space navy as it is for 
contemporary naval forces is to "attack effectively first".  Tactics
will revolve around detecting, tracking and attacking the enemy with
deadly effect before he can do the same to you."

     2300AD's Star Cruiser had a great line in it regarding space combat, 
something along the lines of it resembling "hide and seek with bazookas".
     Sensors in Our Olde Game are nothing like those in 2300AD and the 
regular sensor threads here on the TML pretty much point to the futility of 
trying to achieve tactical surprise like a submarine can.  An OTU ship is 
going to know you're out there well before you enter any kind of wapons 
range.  Of course, knowing you're out there and achieving a weapons lock are 
two very different things.
     Sensors scans and pre-engagment manuevering in the OTU will made for 
operational superiority rather than "mousetrapping" any opposing forces.

     "With long ranges making the MK-I eyeball largely irrelevant as a 
sensor, battle will be a blind man's bluff of electronics."

     The lack of EW, ECM, ECCM, etc., in OTU naval combat is a problem.  The 
relative computer size bonus in HG2 squeezes all of that into a single 
factor.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 20:59:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Thu Aug 22 19:59:56 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Submarines and Traveller
References: <5.1.1.6.0.20020822222515.00a36b20@mail.pi.se>
Message-ID: <3D65A4B9.197F9372@pobox.com>

Tyge Sjstrand wrote:

> >From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se>
> >...Are there any currently available SF novels with this kind of feel to
> >space combat? Most of the stuff I've read has too much of an
> >air-to-air-combat feel.
>

Try some of C.J. Cherryh's books.  Maybe "Downbelow Station" or "Hellburner".
She doesn't have extensive combat sequences in her books, but it always 'felt'
like Traveller to me.

YMMV,
WKH


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 21:05:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Thu Aug 22 20:05:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Absent Friends
References: <20020822141847.90558.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com> <OE24HlwWkVNqXSvUkBA00010602@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D65A584.9070407@yarranet.net.au>

Since the General joined the list shortly after I did he's always seemed 
a part of it and will be sorely missed.

Phill (wiping a tear from my eye)
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/traveller/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 21:08:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug 22 20:08:12 2002
Subject: [TML] USS America - Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <F161n8fteSA0qggdhkl00014f7c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B98AF4AC.6ABAA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/22/02 7:26 PM, Larsen E. Whipsnade at grote1731@hotmail.com wrote:

> All that being said, I had four hot meals a day if I wanted them, hot
> running water 24/7 (engineering has it's perks), room for books, access t=
o a
> TV and VCR, and plenty of electricity.
> Everyone of those things beats the hell out of a foxhole.

True.  BTW, they're now "Defensive Fighting Positions".

I've often wondered about the mindset that make one choose the Navy over th=
e
Army, or the reverse.  Why do some of us like to sail into the sunset, whil=
e
other are attracted to snuggling down into a mud hole?  Why do some prefer
the remote clash of giant engines hurtling death at each other over the
water, while other prefer a more personal and up close form of engagement.

I do remember having conversation with a friend of mine who served on a
carrier.  In his mind, we soldiers were idiots while he and his kind lived
the good life.  To us, he and his were not 'real' warriors.

Even today, almost 20 years later I am still more draw to the Army, despite
experience and maturity.  Go figure.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 22:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Aug 22 21:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Low-tech dilemmas and non-interchangable parts...
In-Reply-To: <200208221529.NIG00426@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020823001635.02cb0008@192.168.0.1>

At 11:29 AM 8/22/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>Mark Urbin says
> >Back to the Future III.  A small microchip replaced by a
> >suitcase sized collection of tubes.
>No, think of the Volvo Penta motor - a high tech motor in
>terms of materials and design made for maintenance in a low
>tech environment.
>The parts they anticipate that you might replace locally are
>fairly easy to fabricate if you can't get spares.  But no one
>can locally compete with the low price, high quality, and
>reliability of the design.

Well...more like two different philosophies here...
The Penta is how a time machine should be build...

However, I think's gonna be hard to replace a burned out grav module in an 
air/raft using stone knives & bearskins. :-)



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
You sound reasonable ... time to up my medication
                  http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 22:43:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Thu Aug 22 21:43:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Absent Friends
In-Reply-To: <3D65A584.9070407@yarranet.net.au>
References: <20020822141847.90558.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
 <OE24HlwWkVNqXSvUkBA00010602@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020823003958.031d1988@192.168.0.1>

A glass of  Single Malt Scotch Whiskey raised in his honor...

When drinking to the General, it's the "Good Stuff"...


-------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Character, the willingness to accept responsibility
for one's own life, is the source from which
self-respect springs." - Joan Didion
-------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 22:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Thu Aug 22 21:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
Message-ID: <3D65BDBE.3C98170C@mail.cswnet.com>

Thomas Barnes writes:
>On reflection, I think that maybe submarine combat is a better model >for Traveller space combat than surface naval engagements.  

I would say:
Submarine combat is a better model for space combat than surface naval
engagments.

Traveller space combat, on the other hand, seems more like Jutland to
me. Especially the big ships, lack of nasty fighters [see prior thread],
lining up the ships to shoot at each other [if your using HG2]. 

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 23:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Angus McDonald)
Date: Thu Aug 22 22:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Not quite Re: Drugs
Message-ID: <OFAA8941FF.9C45E5AC-ONCA256C1E.0009A990@dnsalias.com>

>>>
Mexal writes:

>Most people think I don't drink at all, because I don't mix alcohol with
>role-playing. 

yah. Stirring a drink with a particularly tall miniature, or worse, one of 
my 
rulebooks, just doesn't work well at all...

GC
<<<

Reminds me of when the GM's two year old twins decided they wanted to sit 
at the gaming table with Dad. The funniest incident was when one of them 
decided that the nice tall glass of coke needed some 'dice-cubes' added to 
it - after she had salivated all over them first. I don't know what was 
funnier - seeing the coke's owner decide he wasn't thirsty anymore, or 
watching him fetch his d10 out of the glass!
---  from  ---
Angus McDonald
www.falkayn.com

--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/html
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 22 23:35:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shadowcat)
Date: Thu Aug 22 22:35:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Absent Friends
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020823003958.031d1988@192.168.0.1>
References: <3D65A584.9070407@yarranet.net.au>
Message-ID: <3D657D37.17921.820996@localhost>

Another one to absent friends, as he smashes a glass in the 
fireplace at Callahans Bar. "Heres to Absent Friends"

and heres a quote from one of my favorite songs

Rambling Rover by Andy M Stewart

"I've travelled all the nations, ta'en delight in all creation"
"I've tried a wee sensation where the company did prove kind" 
"And when partin was no pleasure, I've drunk another measure"
"To the good friends that we treasure, for they always are in our 
minds:"

<CRASH>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 00:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (J-Man)
Date: Thu Aug 22 23:23:02 2002
Subject: FW: [TML] For the General
Message-ID: <000001c24a6d$4523f3f0$6401a8c0@GOCA>


-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of DeGraff, Jesse
Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 10:24
To: 'tml@travellercentral.com'
Subject: RE: [TML] For the General

<blink...blink...>  Must have something in my eyes...

I can't think of anything more fitting.  We'll miss you, General.
Jesse


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tod Glenn [mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com]
> Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 10:15 AM
> To: TML
> Subject: [TML] For the General
> 
> 
> The sad news about the General's passing reminded me of this 
> poem, which
> somehow seems appropriate.
> 
> The Lost Master
> by Robert W. Service
> 
> 
> "And when I come to die," he said,
> "Ye shall not lay me out in state,
> Nor leave your laurels at my head,
> Nor cause your men of speech orate;
> No monument your gift shall be,
> No column in the Hall of Fame;
> But just this line ye grave for me:
> 
>     `He played the game.'"
> 
> 
> So when his glorious task was done,
> It was not of his fame we thought;
> It was not of his battles won,
> But of the pride with which he fought;
> But of his zest, his ringing laugh,
> His trenchant scorn of praise or blame:
> And so we graved his epitaph,
> 
>     "He played the game."
> 
> 
> And so we, too, in humbler ways
> Went forth to fight the fight anew,
> And heeding neither blame nor praise,
> We held the course he set us true.
> And we, too, find the fighting sweet;
> And we, too, fight for fighting's sake;
> And though we go down in defeat,
> And though our stormy hearts may break,
> We will not do our Master shame:
> We'll play the game, please God,
> 
>     We'll play the game.
 
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 00:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Aug 22 23:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020822191836.5518f56cb4884d43b5aa9ac858ffdb42.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <3D668003.21802.40890F@localhost>

On 22 Aug 2002 at 19:17, Cheng Tseng wrote:

> Any ship's torpedo defenses (Even the YAMATO's.) would not have stopped a
> Type 93.  While the never built MONTANAs had probably the best torpedo
> defense scheme the US was seriously considering builting into battleships,
> the IOWAs were not exactly helpless - their torpedo protection scheme was
> based on the SOUTH DAKOTAs IIRC, which was regarded as a needed improvement
> over the NORTH CAROLINAs.

Ah, but while based on the South Dakota's, the Iowa's was thinner, 
simply because there was less room. One of those things.
 
> Now consider an imbalance argument had BuShips been forced to go with 14"
> guns....

As in never move up from 14" for the treaty ships, and thus have to 
stay with them? Well, at least they'd have had lots and lots of them. 
:)

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 00:36:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Aug 22 23:36:50 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020822192035.dff14b3381fb4be2b064a948fcf2d3e5.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <3D668003.1003.4088C9@localhost>

On 22 Aug 2002 at 19:22, Cheng Tseng wrote:

> Okay, the turrets were suited to the job.  Building a new battleship
> just so you can lug around old guns (Instead of say, put them in
> fixed batteries to duel it out with the relatives across the Channel
> at Calais.), was something of a waste. 

Actually they did that with some of the tubes, too. I think the reason 
was that they felt the need for more capital ships and there was 
clearly no way the Lions could've been finished in any useful time, so 
they went with what they had. As it was they did get a very good AA 
platform out of it that was fast enough to act as a carrier escort, 
something the British were very short of in WWII.
 
> Did the RN ever get anywhere developing the new pattern 16" guns that were
> suppose to go onto LION and TEMERAIRE?

According to John Campbell's _Naval Weapons of World War Two_ (which I 
borrowed from the local library a couple of week back for something 
quite else), they only made four guns. Muzzle velocity is given as 
slightly less than the Mk7 of the Iowas, but as the USN measured this 
at a higher temperature than just about everyone else, it would in fact 
have been somewhat higher. The shell was to have been a little heavier 
than the old US 16" shell, and thus rather lighter than the 2700lb Mk6 
& Mk7 shell. The range was very similar to that of the Mk7 and, if the 
results of comparitive tests of the British and new US 14" shells were 
indicative (the British shells did much better at poor angles and low 
velocities, and somewhat worse at high velocities), at long ranges it 
would probably have had nearly the same performance.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 00:40:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Aug 22 23:40:04 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <F234jc0D543TuylJc0x000001d4@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D668156.28163.45B3D2@localhost>

On 23 Aug 2002 at 2:00, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      Didn't one of the earlier radar warning devices issued to U-boats 
> actually act as a beacon for Allied radars?

Later on it did, because the British discovered that like most radio 
receivers it also emitted slightly.
 
>      "It's actually probably reasonable to call her a BB, given that
> only her armament was sub-par, and that was supposed to have been
> changed to 6 x 15" guns, but the war intervened." 

>      Just how poorly did the Germans behave during the sortie?  Mr. Tseng 
> aluded to it in one of his posts.  After twice tangling with three RN CAs 
> while attempting to attack the convoy and after picking up SIGINT indicating 
> that another force was closing, Scharnhorst was caught by Duke of York with 
> her turrets still laid fore and aft!

Well with her radar off-line it's not like she had any idea where the 
enemy was. What's more in that sort of weather her captain may have 
decided that he was happier with them presenting a minimum profile to 
the weather.

>      One author I've read does point out that the Scharnhorst's crew had 
> been awake for close to 72 hours by then.  Which brings this back to Our 
> Olde Game:
> 
> ObTrav - The TNE space combat system had penalties if your crew had been a 
> battle stations for a given period of time.  How have you handled long 
> periods of enforced watchfulness in your games?

In a manner disliked by my players - I subjected their characters' 
every action to horrendous penalties, especially if it involved any 
sort of intellectual load. Having been awake for a 60+ hour stretch on 
exercise I have some exeperience with the results of sleeplessness, and 
it severly affects judgement. It's in this sort of situation you simply 
follow the drills you've been trained in and hope those who designed 
the drills knew what they were doing.
 
-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 00:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Aug 22 23:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] USS America - Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <F161n8fteSA0qggdhkl00014f7c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D6681DC.24948.47BE40@localhost>

On 23 Aug 2002 at 2:26, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      All that being said, I had four hot meals a day if I wanted them, hot 
> running water 24/7 (engineering has it's perks), room for books, access to a 
> TV and VCR, and plenty of electricity.
>      Everyone of those things beats the hell out of a foxhole.

I bet you didn't have to pick up all your worldly belongings every day 
or two and hump them up hill and down dale and then biuld yourself a 
new home, either.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 00:46:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Aug 22 23:46:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <B98AF11F.6ABA4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <000001c24a46$785fb6e0$6501a8c0@Darla>
Message-ID: <3D6682B1.1255.4AFDCC@localhost>

On 22 Aug 2002 at 19:50, Tod Glenn wrote:

> There's a big factor in space combat that gets frequently ignored.
> Considering the distanced involved and the acceleration, sensor lag will
> become a factor.
> 
> With passive sensors, you'll only have to deal with the lag in one
> direction. With active sensors, that lag gets doubled.  Unless the ranges
> are close (and there's no reason for them to be) you'll be constantly
> dealing with information about where your opponent _was_.  Say he's 150,000
> km distant.  With active sensors, your data is a second old.  Assuming he's
> at a dead stop, but has 6G of acceleration, by the time your meson beam gets
> there (another 1/2 second flight time) he has moved 66 meters in any
> direction.  If he's a smaller vessel, that might mean a complete miss.

Which is why TNE assumed many shots per roll to hit, and gave large 
penalties for range when using beam weapons and controlled missiles.

> Your pinging away, so he's launched ARMs that are homing in on you. 
> You go quiet, but his missiles have their own sensons, and while
> they're not as fast as an energy beam, they can make mid course
> correction and still have higher acceleration than you do. 

They may not have enough fuel to catch you though (at least you hope). 
Of course that evasion attempt just lit you up nicely.
 
> Anyway, I personally think the whole space opera dog fight is pretty
> unrealistic.  More likely, you'll never see the enemy.  You may only
> realize he's out their when your ship explodes because he's been
> tracking you with passives and takes his shot while you're on a nice,
> predictable course. 

I think it is, too. However that's because I prefer my big Traveller 
battles to look more like a WWI or WWII surface action. Given how 
brightly spaceships actually glow (just look at the output of the 
average Trav ship's reactor) finding someone's not going to be much of 
a problem.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 00:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Aug 22 23:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS America - Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <B98AF4AC.6ABAA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <F161n8fteSA0qggdhkl00014f7c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D6683A2.14399.4EAE02@localhost>

On 22 Aug 2002 at 20:06, Tod Glenn wrote:

> I do remember having conversation with a friend of mine who served
> on a carrier.  In his mind, we soldiers were idiots while he and his
> kind lived the good life.  To us, he and his were not 'real'
> warriors. 

To my friends and I, the people who knew who went to the Navy were mad. 
I mean in the event of a major war they were going to be in this great 
big lump of metal that just screamed "I'm a target! I'm a target!" 
Worse there's nowhere to hide out on the sea.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 00:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug 22 23:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Absent Friends
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020823003958.031d1988@192.168.0.1>
References: <20020822141847.90558.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
 <OE24HlwWkVNqXSvUkBA00010602@hotmail.com>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020823003958.031d1988@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <m3ptwam5f1.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> writes:
>
> A glass of Single Malt Scotch Whiskey raised in his honor...

Here it's a nice port[1]...

> When drinking to the General, it's the "Good Stuff"...

The sentiment's the same, of course.  Eonia i mnimni--may his memory
be eternal.

[1] Not that I've anything at all 'gainst single malt scotch

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of
one's time defending scoundrels.  For it is against scoundrels that
oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the
beginning if it is to be stopped at all.               --H. L. Mencken

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 01:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Fri Aug 23 00:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] drugs
In-Reply-To: <B98940C4.6A92C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <002001c24b17$58612e10$1001a8c0@sauron>

Tod Glenn wrote :
> on 8/21/02 12:35 PM, Azalais Malfoy at tiamat@tsoft.com wrote:
> > On Wed, 21 Aug 2002 Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> >
> >> Not at all.  Firearms, smoking, fatty foods, etc. do not
> >> undermine judgement. Drugs do.
> >
> > So does religion but we don't ban that.
>
> Probably something to do with the First amendment.
>
> "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of
> religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."
>
> Damn Constitution!<g>

Simple then, we just start a religion whose ceremonies require the use
of hallucinogenic chemicals, and then the US Government can't ban the
drugs...

Oh wait, that's already been done...
<grin>

Frankie




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 01:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Aug 23 00:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Absent Friends
In-Reply-To: <F170KPcOyilVvH9ku4n00026b98@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D6690C4.18657.48B185D@localhost>

I wish the General well on his journey, but wish he might have been able to 
stay longer.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 02:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Fri Aug 23 01:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] District 268, fleets and the type T cruiser
References: <200208221134.g7MBY1o11504@excalibur.skynet.be>
Message-ID: <000f01c24a7e$399cb060$ce00a8c0@imogen>

Thierry Maitrejean wrote:
> 2. Which fleet ? :  the 5FW maps on pp 12-13 of The spinward
> marches campaign show 214th fleet in Glisten. The text says it
> took part into the Sword Worlds campaign. Yet, Megatraveller
> rebellion sourcebook (page 26) shows 214th fleet in Aramis,
> while Glisten is now home to the 100th fleet. Is this a mistake
> or has 214th been redeployed after the war ? Anyway, what is
> the correct pre-war situation ?
> 3. Fleet organigram : What would the probable composition of
> the Glisten fleet be? Which of its ships could likely be
> detached to form the District 268  Task Force ?

I ran a similar campaign a few years ago.  It  started  with  the
PCs in active service ... the crew of a Gazelle CE wandering  all
over the Spinward Marches.  Eventually, they ended up in  Glisten
Subsector at the start of the 5FW, and  were  reassigned  to  the
214th fleet.  Their new job  was  called  "Irregular  Operations"
(nicknamed "the odd job squad"): they sometimes  ran  short  deep
space patrols for the fleet, checked out  gas  giants  for  enemy
SDBs  prior  to  the  fleet  refueling,  did  search   &   rescue
(recovering fighter pilots after  combat),  covertly  transported
spies to independant worlds in District 268, and so on.

The organisation of the 214th fleet (IMTU) can be found on my web
site ... I will try and add a few more notes from  that  campaign
sometime soon.

http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen/sol/traveller/index.html

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 02:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Fri Aug 23 01:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Not quite Re: Drugs
Message-ID: <memo.73150@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <OFAA8941FF.9C45E5AC-ONCA256C1E.0009A990@dnsalias.com>
> Reminds me of when the GM's two year old twins decided they wanted to 
> sit at the gaming table with Dad. The funniest incident was when one of 
> them decided that the nice tall glass of coke needed some 'dice-cubes' 
> added to it - after she had salivated all over them first. I don't know 
> what was funnier - seeing the coke's owner decide he wasn't thirsty 
> anymore, or watching him fetch his d10 out of the glass!

It's not just 2-year olds. To this day, I cannot let my dearly beloved 
husband anywhere near my dice if I am drinking any liquid (alcoholic or 
not) or he will drop them in. Irrespective if I happen to be role-playing 
at the time or not (I always have a few dice about my person!).

Grrr.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexa,.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 02:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Fri Aug 23 01:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Absent Friends
In-Reply-To: <005601c24a11$25d65c60$8375ff3e@bloodyhellfire>
Message-ID: <3D669BA3.32403.4B58E22@localhost>

On 22 Aug 2002, at 20:21, Simon Brodie wrote:

> I can just imagine the dice beginning to roll up in heaven (and the
> discussions beginning about 'near-C' rocks and the like).

Well, at least I can be assured of a game when I eventually make that 
journey.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 03:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Fri Aug 23 02:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] spreading tech knowledge
References: <ML-2.3.1029949575.3990.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3D64B487.6030807@usisp.com>

Anthony Jackson wrote:

>Douglas Berry writes:
>
>>But almost all of the TL 6-7 material is imported.  It is much easier to 
>>buy the finished product than go to the trouble of building the 
>>infrastructure to build your own AK clone.
>>
>
>Sure, but for the practical use of TL (what can PCs expect to find on the
>world), the issue of whether the tech is imported or local really doesn't
>matter.  If you're going to require a local production standard, you wind up
>with the problem of 'low-pop worlds cannot have TLs higher than 5'.
>
    But knowing what the local tech is can help determine how much the 
local
population can afford to import. After all, there are no giant shopping 
malls
on the Ivory Coast so while higher-tech is available, it could be hard 
to find,
cost a whole lot or already be owned by someone if it is unprofittable 
for huge
amounts to be imported.
    Besides...huge trade deficits are bad.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 03:08:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Fri Aug 23 02:08:08 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
References: <20020821123936.a3dbf7ac36e246cdaa5d867a03de9607.in@keywest.kennett.net> <20020822081320.C17114@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3D64B844.6000405@usisp.com>

>
>
>
>Quality of drugs being sold should also be regulated, just as it is
>illegal to sell methylated spirits as fit for human consumption.
>Correct labelling of the composition of any purchased drugs should
>also be mandatory.  I would accept other mandatory regulations on
>sale, e.g. only to responsible persons, requirement for prominent
>warnings, etc.
>
    Plus the government would generate revenue from taxes on it.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 05:40:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Fri Aug 23 04:40:03 2002
Subject: [TML] spreading tech knowledge
References: <ML-2.3.1030034112.9071.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3D660396.90207@usisp.com>

Anthony Jackson wrote:

>>
>
>Shrug.  Chicken and egg problem.  The reason they don't have high tech
>manufacturing or infrastructire is that they don't have the wealth to pay for
>it.  My main point is that you can plausibly model the meaning of 'TL' in
>Traveller by assuming it's a measure of wealth.
>
    Which is why I advocate two tech levels...one for imports ( same as 
it ever was )
and one for locally made goods ( what is available if no trade ) . The 
former is the
way most use tech...the latter is neccesary for macroeconmic sims in 
addition to
fleshing out a world ( it gives some sort of indication of what life is 
like far from starport )
    The tech near starport should be in accordance to tech levels of 
trade partners nearby
and not just purely random. That was what annoyed me from the uwp. It 
was possible
to get a lo-pop, hi-tech world surrounded by med-pop med tech worlds. It 
got hard
to rationalize after so many times.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 05:43:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Fri Aug 23 04:43:08 2002
Subject: [TML] A question concerning TML-chat and topics
References: <5.1.1.6.0.20020822115037.009f9db0@mail.pi.se>
Message-ID: <3D66079A.6040706@usisp.com>

>
>
>> Items in the third category include things like gun control, drugs, 
>> politic=
>> s
>> etc that have no place on the main list and often turn into flame wars.
>> Since I don't like to censor people, I tend to just suggest they move it
>> over to the TML-chat list, which is an open forum. 
>
    Irritation be damned...am I risking being cast out because  I have 
opinions that may be unpopular?
If it turns into a flame war, then I suggest that people cannot discuss 
generalities in a calm manner.

> Discussing drug policy can be, I think, highly relevant to a Traveller 
> campaign - at least as relevant as fifty posts or so discussing the 
> minutiae of guns on WWII battleships or whatever. Thereby not said it 
> is worth trying to discuss drug policy. 

    BB's is a very interesting thread, but it is also off topic ( at 
least as far as drugs )
I wonder on how many worlds in the Imperium that the drug debate is 
going on. What is
the Imperial position on drugs? How does this position affect law 
levels? Does the navy have drug
testing? What about drugs that are legal in the Imperium but not on 
local worlds...who has juristriction
on Imperial personnel? Even if those drugs are for medical purposes ( 
like weed is suppose to be )?
    What about legal drugs that are worse that illegal ones...how does 
the Imperium feel about those?

    The drug thread can be relavent to Traveller, posters just don't 
seem to want to steer it in that direction,
so I guess it is the poster who has to determine what is off-topic.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 06:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Fri Aug 23 05:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A question concerning TML-chat and topics
Message-ID: <memo.79194@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <3D66079A.6040706@usisp.com>
>     The drug thread can be relavent to Traveller, posters just don't 
> seem to want to steer it in that direction,
> so I guess it is the poster who has to determine what is off-topic.

So here goes: in one PBeM, the GM has decreed that most 'recreational 
pharacuticals' are not illegal, however most of the members of my former 
band are currently behind bars not so much for using various exotic 
substances but because they gave some to the daughter of the planetary 
governor!

I bet the drugs debate is raging on that planet! I have no idea, though, I 
bolted before anyone tried to involve me :-)

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 07:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff D. Greenly)
Date: Fri Aug 23 06:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: optima and other font analogs
Message-ID: <sd660583.067@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>

Point your browser at http://www.lynxerror.com/fonts/ttf/ 

Optima.ttf and its related ligature are about 2/3 of the way down the
directory listing. Make sure to download both files.

Other analogs for Optima/Zapf Humanist 601 BT include:

Athena; CG Omega; Chelmsford/II; Musica; October; OP; Optimis;
Optimist; Oracle/II; Orleans; Roma; Ursa; Zenith (from fontinfo.net)

Jeff


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 08:02:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug 23 07:02:06 2002
Subject: [TML] USS America - Naval crew accommodation
Message-ID: <200208231401.NJZ03307@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>Even today, almost 20 years later I am still more draw to 
>the Army, despite experience and maturity.  Go figure.

Ever wonder why some people "always" roll up a Naval 
character if they can, or always a Marine?  Or always a 
Scout?  And if they can't get into a particular character 
branch (CT), they play the resulting character as "a scout" 
or "soldier" anyway?

These things are part of your gestalt image - the way you see 
yourself, and it's ingrained in you very early in life.  
Everything after that is just your rationalization.

It's not perfect - I was just reading some Ramen & Whipsnade 
that had the General in it, and also the General's last piece 
on Freelance (a character description).  As much as the 
General tried to put his character down on paper, and as much 
as the author of the R&W piece might have alluded to, there's 
something that can't be written down that constitutes "our" 
characters.

Even through the text of a mailing list, we got a glimpse of 
a man who had an inner drive to dream, to create, and to 
share.  It's probably something we all should aspire to, even 
if we know now that the bar is raised on high by the General.
________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 08:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug 23 07:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] USS America - Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <B98AF4AC.6ABAA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <F161n8fteSA0qggdhkl00014f7c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020823070004.009f73e0@mindspring.com>

At 08:06 PM 8/22/02 -0700, you wrote:
>I've often wondered about the mindset that make one choose the Navy over the
>Army, or the reverse.  Why do some of us like to sail into the sunset, while
>other are attracted to snuggling down into a mud hole?  Why do some prefer
>the remote clash of giant engines hurtling death at each other over the
>water, while other prefer a more personal and up close form of engagement.

Partly family tradition, partly persdnal preference.  I wanted to be doing 
something, not laboring away in an engine room while my fate was handled by 
people I'd never met.  At least as an infantry man, I had a rifle and could 
depend on myself if everything else went to hell.

ObTrav:  Inter-service opinions.  What does the average Marine think of the 
Army tanker?  What do they both think of the Navy?


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Embrace Fascism.        The uniforms look cool
   Author of _GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces_



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 08:21:33 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug 23 07:21:33 2002
Subject: [TML] USS America - Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <F161n8fteSA0qggdhkl00014f7c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020823065819.009e1bd0@mindspring.com>

At 02:26 AM 8/23/02 +0000, you wrote:
>Everyone of those things beats the hell out of a foxhole.

Well, there is one advantage to a fighting position.  If my foxhole takes a 
hit, I slump to the ground and bleed until the medics get to me.  If *your* 
ship gets hit, it slumps to the bottom of the ocean.

-- 

Douglas E. Berry   gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Cry "CHEEBLE!" and let slip the hamsters of war!



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 08:25:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug 23 07:25:39 2002
Subject: [TML] USS America - Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <3D6681DC.24948.47BE40@localhost>
References: <F161n8fteSA0qggdhkl00014f7c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020823070340.009f86e0@mindspring.com>

At 06:41 PM 8/23/02 +1200, you wrote:
>I bet you didn't have to pick up all your worldly belongings every day
>or two and hump them up hill and down dale and then biuld yourself a
>new home, either.

In the rain!  Don't forget, it always rains on the infantry!  Except when 
it snows.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Some days, you just can't get rid  of a bomb!"
                     -Adam West, as Batman 



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 08:29:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug 23 07:29:05 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <3D668156.28163.45B3D2@localhost>
References: <F234jc0D543TuylJc0x000001d4@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020823070504.009f9910@mindspring.com>

>  *snipped*

Could we bring this back to Traveller somehow, or move it to TML-chat?

--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 08:33:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug 23 07:33:15 2002
Subject: [TML] USS America - Naval crew accommodation
Message-ID: <200208231429.NKA00452@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry says
>If *your* ship gets hit, it slumps to the bottom of the 
>ocean.


No, if your ship gets hit, you're part of a rapidly cooling 
expanding cloud of plasma, with fist-sized tumbling chunks of 
the drive section spinning off into the depths of space...

________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 08:37:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug 23 07:37:05 2002
Subject: [TML] USS America - Naval crew accommodation
Message-ID: <200208231436.NKB00748@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas Berry says
>In the rain!  Don't forget, it always rains on the 
>infantry!  Except when it snows.

I don't hump if I can get a ride...

When I was in the Gulf, people didn't believe that I could 
hitch a ride on a helicopter.  I used to hitch rides all the 
time at Ft. Campbell.  The common argument was that "we don't 
even have a radio".  At Ft. Campbell, it pays to have friends 
in aviation.

I have always viewed the Blackhawk as the current tech grav 
vehicle - I like it's layout better than the little thing 
drawn in the Traveller books.

So, it was about a month after the end of the ground war, and 
we were outside Hafar al-Batin taking in the sights, and a 
lone Blackhawk was just cruising around.  I raised both arms, 
and sure enough, he noticed me.  After a few minutes where I 
played with hand and arm signals (and he played back), the 
pilot landed nearby.  I got a ride back to camp on the 
Blackhawk while my compatriots had to ride in the Hummer.

________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 08:59:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Fri Aug 23 07:59:10 2002
Subject: [TML] USS America - Naval crew accommodation/air/raft
Message-ID: <E17iFst-0007AF-00@fifi.runbox.com>

<snip>
>=20
> I have always viewed the Blackhawk as the current tech grav=20
> vehicle - I like it's layout better than the little thing=20
> drawn in the Traveller books.
>=20

Maybe you should draw out a deck plan for an air/raft based on the Blackhaw=
k layout and post it.  (For those of us who have never been in a Blackhawk.=
)=20=20


Beth

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 09:03:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug 23 08:03:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
Message-ID: <200208231502.NKB04186@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

There's a bit in Book 4 about the transition from tracked and 
wheeled vehicles to grav vehicles, but...

What's the transition for civilians?

I'm still working on Vilis - it's low tech enough that I'm 
wondering how the average civilian gets around.

And no Segway jokes, please...

Given the price of an air/raft, I'm not sure that many people 
would have them - which means I'm going to have a lot of 
highways. 

There is an allusion in Book 4 that states that grav vehicles 
do not "fly" at first like aircraft - that they are merely 
grav sleds.  If the price was low enough, I could see this 
replacing wheeled vehicles, but the road would be different.

I'm also wondering how automatic all of this would be.  I 
mean, in the "future", will drivers "drive"?  Or will they 
punch in the destination, select the route, and the car 
drives you there?  That might imply that an actual driving 
skill would *not* be something the average civilian would 
have. Only military or explorer types who drove "off road" 
would have a driving skill.

Any thoughts on this?
________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 09:07:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Fri Aug 23 08:07:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Absent Friends
In-Reply-To: <3D669BA3.32403.4B58E22@localhost>
Message-ID: <20020823150522.69518.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com>

Never knew him,but with so many admirers he must have
been something indeed. 
It'll be great to meet him on the other side.

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 09:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Fri Aug 23 08:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
Message-ID: <memo.83772@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <200208231502.NKB04186@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
> I'm still working on Vilis - it's low tech enough that I'm 
> wondering how the average civilian gets around.
> 
> And no Segway jokes, please...

What's a 'segway' please?
> 
> Given the price of an air/raft, I'm not sure that many people 
> would have them - which means I'm going to have a lot of 
> highways. 
> 
> There is an allusion in Book 4 that states that grav vehicles 
> do not "fly" at first like aircraft - that they are merely 
> grav sleds.  If the price was low enough, I could see this 
> replacing wheeled vehicles, but the road would be different.
> 
> I'm also wondering how automatic all of this would be.  I 
> mean, in the "future", will drivers "drive"?  Or will they 
> punch in the destination, select the route, and the car 
> drives you there?  That might imply that an actual driving 
> skill would *not* be something the average civilian would 
> have. Only military or explorer types who drove "off road" 
> would have a driving skill.
> 
> Any thoughts on this?

If you envisage a kind of 'grav-hover' vehicle, that normally travels at 
about knee-height but on gravitics rather than wheels, you might decide 
that they run best over a flat surface, and so you still need 'roads' of 
smooth material (well-laid hardtop will do fine, or concrete). On rougher 
surfaces, speed and stability are affected, but it is possible to 
'off-road' - anyone wishing to do so will need some skill at handling his 
vehicle. People only remaining on the roads do not need much skill, and - 
if as you say, automatic controls are available - perhaps none at all.

The automatic controls could be either 'navigation' systems that carry a 
map of the area, and you tell the system where you are & where you want to 
go, and it follows its internal map; or it could be a 'follow the trail' 
system where it senses information and signals embedded in the road.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 09:37:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Aug 23 08:37:04 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <F1625NxHDKBW6ZuMmZR00011350@hotmail.com>

From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

On 23 Aug 2002 at 2:00, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:  Just how poorly did the 
Germans behave during the sortie?  Mr. Tseng alluded to it in one of his 
posts.  After twice tangling with three RN CAs while attempting to attack 
the convoy and after picking up SIGINT indicating that another force was 
closing, Scharnhorst was caught by Duke of York with
her turrets still laid fore and aft!

     "Well with her radar off-line it's not like she had any idea where the 
enemy was. What's more in that sort of weather her captain may have
decided that he was happier with them presenting a minimum profile to
the weather."


Mr. Boleyn,

     Perhaps, but the German admiral onboard signalled ashore he had SIGINT 
(the Germans had a simple version of Huff-Duff) that there was a "heavy 
force" approaching from the southwest, even estimating the range relatively 
accurately.
     Scharnhorst was heading roughly southeast, Duke of York and Jamaica on 
a rough northeast heading were approaching from the southwest, the Germans 
were still caught by starshell with their turrets trained fore and aft.
     All the British observers were amazed.  They had been reading 
Scharnhorst's transmissions in nearly real-time and knew that the Germans 
were aware of their approach.
     My best guess?  Fatigue, pure and simple.  Up for nearly three days and 
just plain worn out.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 09:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Fri Aug 23 08:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <20020823114613.726f3bb12cba4926a3f7a7132751fc20.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>> Any ship's torpedo defenses (Even the YAMATO's.) would not have stopped a
>> Type 93.  While the never built MONTANAs had probably the best torpedo
>> defense scheme the US was seriously considering builting into battleships,
>> the IOWAs were not exactly helpless - their torpedo protection scheme was
>> based on the SOUTH DAKOTAs IIRC, which was regarded as a needed improvement
>> over the NORTH CAROLINAs.
>
>Ah, but while based on the South Dakota's, the Iowa's was thinner, 
>simply because there was less room. One of those things.

For the area foward from turret 1's barbette, yes.  But I was hestitate
about the rest of the ship. (An IOWA had just as much beam as a SOUTH
DAKOTA.).  Not that the SOUTH DAKOTA's torpedo protection scheme was that
highly regarded...
 
>> Now consider an imbalance argument had BuShips been forced to go with 14"
>> guns....
>
>As in never move up from 14" for the treaty ships, and thus have to 
>stay with them? Well, at least they'd have had lots and lots of them. 
>:)

No.  If BuShips had gone with the 14" guns, then we would be saying that the
SOUTH DAKOTAs and IOWAs were undergunned - their armor belt was designed to
protect against projectiles larger then the guns they carried.

One other thing just came up - remember, it was not really until after the
war that the Allies figured out exactly what the YAMATOs were armed with.
When the IOWA was launched, they were intended to be battleships that could
catch and fight KONGOs.  However, they could also fight NAGATOs, which
carried 16" (Actually 16.1") guns.  And the lack of information the Allies
had on the YAMATO simply led most people to consider just a large NAGATO on
the danger scale.

That helps make the IOWAs battleship in my book.

C.T.



"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 09:52:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dave Strebe)
Date: Fri Aug 23 08:52:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
References: <memo.83772@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <02Aug23.091306pdt.119048@gw.city.vancouver.bc.ca>

> What's a 'segway' please?

http://www.segway.com/

2 wheeled electric cart
think of a push type lawn mower (take the blade off)add a platfrom to stand
on,
add an electric mower and some gyroscopes to stabalize it. And voila' c'est
un Segway.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 09:55:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug 23 08:55:11 2002
Subject: [TML] USS America - Naval crew accommodation/air/raft
Message-ID: <200208231554.NKD02916@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Beth asks
>Maybe you should draw out a deck plan for an air/raft based 
>on the Blackhawk layout and post it.  (For those of us who 
>have never been in a Blackhawk.)  

I have a bitmap of the layout if anyone would like it.
________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 09:57:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Fri Aug 23 08:57:58 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <20020823115158.5ff5448552e04f54bc86abda2aff4291.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>> Okay, the turrets were suited to the job.  Building a new battleship
>> just so you can lug around old guns (Instead of say, put them in
>> fixed batteries to duel it out with the relatives across the Channel
>> at Calais.), was something of a waste. 
>
>Actually they did that with some of the tubes, too. I think the reason 

Along with space 14" gun barrels from the KGVs.

>was that they felt the need for more capital ships and there was 
>clearly no way the Lions could've been finished in any useful time, so 
>they went with what they had. As it was they did get a very good AA 
>platform out of it that was fast enough to act as a carrier escort, 
>something the British were very short of in WWII.

Not that she was actually finished by the end of WW2.  I also noticed they
were started later then the LION, but since it the hull was (More or less.)
a copy of the KGV, they saved time that way.

>> Did the RN ever get anywhere developing the new pattern 16" guns that were
>> suppose to go onto LION and TEMERAIRE?
>
>According to John Campbell's _Naval Weapons of World War Two_ (which I 
>borrowed from the local library a couple of week back for something 
>quite else), they only made four guns. Muzzle velocity is given as 
>slightly less than the Mk7 of the Iowas, but as the USN measured this 

Make sense - IOWAs carried 16"/50 while the LION would have carried 16"/45.

>at a higher temperature than just about everyone else, it would in fact 
>have been somewhat higher. The shell was to have been a little heavier 
>than the old US 16" shell, and thus rather lighter than the 2700lb Mk6 
>& Mk7 shell. The range was very similar to that of the Mk7 and, if the 
>results of comparitive tests of the British and new US 14" shells were 
>indicative (the British shells did much better at poor angles and low 
>velocities, and somewhat worse at high velocities), at long ranges it 
>would probably have had nearly the same performance.


C.T.


"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 10:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (R. Michael Stephens)
Date: Fri Aug 23 09:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS America - Naval crew accommodation/air/raft
References: <200208231554.NKD02916@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D665DD5.9040603@vanderbilt.edu>

Please.

John T. Kwon wrote:
> Beth asks
> 
>>Maybe you should draw out a deck plan for an air/raft based 
>>on the Blackhawk layout and post it.  (For those of us who 
>>have never been in a Blackhawk.)  
> 
> 
> I have a bitmap of the layout if anyone would like it.
> ________________
> The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
> Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
> Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
> Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


-- 
--
R. Michael Stephens               Systems Software Specialist
Vanderbilt University         Information Technology Services
Systems Development & Implementation      VUwebmail Developer
Nashville TN.  USA  R.M.Stephens@Vanderbilt.Edu  615.343.8780


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 10:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Fri Aug 23 09:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <20020823120333.49bd4ec8ef494f84a910fd3fc6cc4b4e.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>>      Didn't one of the earlier radar warning devices issued to U-boats 
>> actually act as a beacon for Allied radars?
>
>Later on it did, because the British discovered that like most radio 
>receivers it also emitted slightly.

Metrone (?).  I think the Germans called it the "Biscay Cross" because of
its cruciform shape.
 
>>      "It's actually probably reasonable to call her a BB, given that
>> only her armament was sub-par, and that was supposed to have been
>> changed to 6 x 15" guns, but the war intervened." 

Would have helped earlier in the war against the RENOWN.  S & G might have
gotten the first surprise hit on the battlecruiser, but once the RENOWN's
15" guns opened up on the two, all the Germans could do was run.

>>      Just how poorly did the Germans behave during the sortie?  Mr. Tseng 
>> aluded to it in one of his posts.  After twice tangling with three RN CAs 
>> while attempting to attack the convoy and after picking up SIGINT indicating 
>> that another force was closing, Scharnhorst was caught by Duke of York with 
>> her turrets still laid fore and aft!
>
>Well with her radar off-line it's not like she had any idea where the 
>enemy was. What's more in that sort of weather her captain may have 
>decided that he was happier with them presenting a minimum profile to 
>the weather.
>
>>      One author I've read does point out that the Scharnhorst's crew had 
>> been awake for close to 72 hours by then.  Which brings this back to Our 
>> Olde Game:
>> 
>> ObTrav - The TNE space combat system had penalties if your crew had been a 
>> battle stations for a given period of time.  How have you handled long 
>> periods of enforced watchfulness in your games?
>
>In a manner disliked by my players - I subjected their characters' 
>every action to horrendous penalties, especially if it involved any 
>sort of intellectual load. Having been awake for a 60+ hour stretch on 
>exercise I have some exeperience with the results of sleeplessness, and 
>it severly affects judgement. It's in this sort of situation you simply 
>follow the drills you've been trained in and hope those who designed 
>the drills knew what they were doing.

Well, crew exhaustion was a very nasty problem for the Kriegsmarine - none
of their surface ships had very good crew accommodations (When the USN
examined the PRINZ EUGEN after the war, they were very unimpressive with the
living conditions.  "Cramp" did not begin to describe it.).  That meant any
prolong time at sea, without the exhaustion that comes from standing watch
for 3+ days straight, would have saw a massive drop-off in crew efficiency.
This certainly affected the BISMARCK.

C.T.


"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 10:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Fri Aug 23 09:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020823114613.726f3bb12cba4926a3f7a7132751fc20.in@keywest
 .kennett.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020823121459.02565098@mail.qrc.com>

At 11:48 AM 8/23/2002, Cheng Tseng wrote:
>remember, it was not really until after the war that the Allies figured 
>out exactly what the YAMATOs were armed with.

This is quite true - the Japanese had an active disinformation campaign 
going, and the Yamato's main weapons were officially known as "Type 94 
40cm" weapons.  Forty centimeters being about sixteen inches; without a 
chance to put a ruler to the gun barrel, it's likely that US intelligence 
believed these weapons to be generally similar to those used on the Iowas.

For all of the size and weight difference, the Japanese 18.1"/45 and the US 
16"/50 are surprisingly similar.  The 18" weapon had a maximum range of 
46,000 yards, and could penetrate 14" of armor at 33,000 yards.  The US 16" 
has a maximum range of 42,000 yards, and could penetrate 15" of armor at 
30,000 yards (and 13" at 35,000).



Guy "wildstar" Garnett                                   wildstar@qrc.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
IMTU: tc+ tm tn- t4-$ tg+ tt ru+ ge++ 3i+ c++ jt au st++ ls pi+/- ta he+
       kk hi va++ as++ dr+ so+ zh+ da+ sy-


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 10:30:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Fri Aug 23 09:30:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
Message-ID: <memo.85658@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <02Aug23.091306pdt.119048@gw.city.vancouver.bc.ca>
> http://www.segway.com/
> 
> 2 wheeled electric cart
> think of a push type lawn mower (take the blade off)add a platfrom to 
> stand
> on,
> add an electric mower and some gyroscopes to stabalize it. And voila' 
> c'est
> un Segway.

Ah yes - did see a segment on one of the Discovery Channel 'latest 
inventions' type shows, just didn't know what the thing was called. 
Thanks!

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 10:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Fri Aug 23 09:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Absent Friends
Message-ID: <Springmail.0994.1030120559.0.16040600@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>

Mark Urbin posted:
> 
> A glass of  Single Malt Scotch Whiskey raised
> in his honor...
> 
> When drinking to the General, it's the "Good
> Stuff"...

Damn straight.

David Smart

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 10:47:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Maksim-Smelchak)
Date: Fri Aug 23 09:47:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Non-prevalence of grav vehicles on lower tech worlds...
In-Reply-To: <memo.83772@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPAELJEGAA.max200@lanset.com>

I personally see a minimum tech level for grav vehicles to become prevalent.
I see cheap wheeled vehicles and GEVs (hovercraft) being much more the main
stay of many worlds especially periphery ones. Terrain would, of course,
dictate what sort of vehicles would work best.

Cheers,
Maksim-Smelchak.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Megan Robertson
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2002 8:33 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Cc: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk
Subject: Re: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
>>> Only military or explorer types who drove "off road" would have a
driving skill.
>>> Any thoughts on this? >>>

If you envisage a kind of 'grav-hover' vehicle, that normally travels at
about knee-height but on gravitics rather than wheels, you might decide that
they run best over a flat surface, and so you still need 'roads' of smooth
material (well-laid hardtop will do fine, or concrete). On rougher
surfaces, speed and stability are affected, but it is possible to
'off-road' - anyone wishing to do so will need some skill at handling his
vehicle. People only remaining on the roads do not need much skill, and - if
as you say, automatic controls are available - perhaps none at all.

The automatic controls could be either 'navigation' systems that carry a map
of the area, and you tell the system where you are & where you want to go,
and it follows its internal map; or it could be a 'follow the trail' system
where it senses information and signals embedded in the road.

Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 11:05:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Aug 23 10:05:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Non-prevalence of grav vehicles on lower tech worlds...
In-Reply-To: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPAELJEGAA.max200@lanset.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1030122255.113.ajackson@ping>

Maksim-Smelchak writes:
> I personally see a minimum tech level for grav vehicles to become
> prevalent. I see cheap wheeled vehicles and GEVs (hovercraft) being much
> more the main stay of many worlds especially periphery ones. Terrain would,
> of course, dictate what sort of vehicles would work best.

Cheap wheeled vehicles would appear on many lower-tech worlds, because they are
in fact very cheap.  GEVs aren't so cheap, and probably won't be more common
than they are today.

Helicopters, on the other hand, will not exist.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 11:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Aug 23 10:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <000001c24a46$785fb6e0$6501a8c0@Darla>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1030122495.7515.ajackson@ping>

Thomas Barnes writes:
> On reflection, I think that maybe submarine combat is a better model for
> Traveller space combat than surface naval engagements. 

Depends on your sensor assumptions.  Realistically, stealth is damned difficult
in space, so most battles will evolve into rather dull mid to long range
slugging matches, not people sneaking around sniping at one another.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 11:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug 23 10:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <200208231502.NKB04186@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B98BBB11.6AC33%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/23/02 8:02 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

>=20
> There is an allusion in Book 4 that states that grav vehicles
> do not "fly" at first like aircraft - that they are merely
> grav sleds.  If the price was low enough, I could see this
> replacing wheeled vehicles, but the road would be different.
>=20
> I'm also wondering how automatic all of this would be.  I
> mean, in the "future", will drivers "drive"?  Or will they
> punch in the destination, select the route, and the car
> drives you there?  That might imply that an actual driving
> skill would *not* be something the average civilian would
> have. Only military or explorer types who drove "off road"
> would have a driving skill.
>=20
> Any thoughts on this?

One of the problems with any kind of flying 'car' in general use is going t=
o
be making one the 'failsafe'.  Just about everyone has had car problems.
When you're driving down the road, this is not a problem, you just pull ove=
r
to the side of the road.  When you have car problems at 10,000 feet, that's
another story.  And accidents at altitude are another bit of nasty business=
.

Also, as you note, there is great impetus to take driving out of the hands
of the driver.  Car companies are working steadily towards the auto-piloted
car.  It's just too dangerous a vehicle to be left in the hands of humans.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 11:16:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Aug 23 10:16:07 2002
Subject: [TML] USS America - Naval crew accommodation
Message-ID: <F1070L4w4oNJMtFPOF400013412@hotmail.com>

From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>

     True.  BTW, they're now "Defensive Fighting Positions".


Mr. Glenn,

     Just like zippers are really "interlocking slide fasteners"?

     "I've often wondered about the mindset that make one choose the Navy 
over the Army, or the reverse.  Why do some of us like to sail into the 
sunset, while other are attracted to snuggling down into a mud hole?  Why do 
some prefer the remote clash of giant engines hurtling death at each other 
over the water, while other prefer a more personal and up close form of 
engagement."

     I never really thought about it when visiting the recruiter.  I'd had 
relatives in all branches; Pa in the Marines, uncles in the Navy, USAAF, 
Army, and Merchant Marine.  One great-uncle even marched with Kitchener in 
the Sudan.
     A honest-to-god coin flip made my choice between USN nuclear propulsion 
and USA helo pilot training.  If the SGT had informed me I'd be a warrant 
officer after helo school, I would have told the swabbie to shove off!
     Another mistake I made was thinking that a "machinists' mate" was 
actually a machinist.  D'oh!

     "I do remember having conversation with a friend of mine who served on 
a carrier.  In his mind, we soldiers were idiots while he and his kind lived 
the good life.  To us, he and his were not 'real' warriors."

     Perception can be reality in some cases.  You accepted some slight 
increase in control about how/where you died (i.e. die fighting with a rifle 
in my hand) by giving up what little creature comforts the armed forces can 
provide in return.  Squids perform tasks that might be more technically 
demanding and "enjoy" some little comforts while placing more control over 
their own life and death in others' hands.
     I doubt anyone actually sits down and thinks about this when deciding 
which branch to serve in.  I had the scores to join any branch and selected 
the one that would give me the most training.  Others might make their 
selections because they don't want to dig "fighting positions" or hate the 
ocean.
     To my mind the "control vs. comfort" trade off can be best illustrated 
by the USS Stark incident.  One officer, Lt. Basil "May He Rot In Hell" 
Moncrief, made the decision not to activate the ship's Phalanx/CWIS system 
despite several urgings from the senior enlisted men in CIC.  The Iraqi 
Exocet was given a much better chance of hitting thanks to his stupidity and 
good men died.
     In an Army unit, some moronic and dopey "ossifer" may decide not to 
entrench at this time, but the guys serving under him can still dig their 
own holes if they choose.  The squids aboard Stark didn't have that 
"luxury", but they enjoyed other luxuries groundpounders don't.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 11:19:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug 23 10:19:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <memo.83772@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <B98BBBD5.6AC34%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/23/02 8:00 AM, Megan Robertson at mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk
wrote:

> In-Reply-To: <200208231502.NKB04186@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
>> I'm still working on Vilis - it's low tech enough that I'm
>> wondering how the average civilian gets around.
>>=20
>> And no Segway jokes, please...
>=20
> What's a 'segway' please?

He means segue.

> If you envisage a kind of 'grav-hover' vehicle, that normally travels at
> about knee-height but on gravitics rather than wheels, you might decide
> that they run best over a flat surface, and so you still need 'roads' of
> smooth material (well-laid hardtop will do fine, or concrete). On rougher
> surfaces, speed and stability are affected, but it is possible to
> 'off-road' - anyone wishing to do so will need some skill at handling his
> vehicle. People only remaining on the roads do not need much skill, and -
> if as you say, automatic controls are available - perhaps none at all.

Agreed. Civilian grav vehicle would probably be limited to certain roadways=
,
at least until they become so reliable that they are essentially failsafe.
>=20
> The automatic controls could be either 'navigation' systems that carry a
> map of the area, and you tell the system where you are & where you want t=
o
> go, and it follows its internal map; or it could be a 'follow the trail'
> system where it senses information and signals embedded in the road.

It's also possible that these vehicles will be in contact with some master
traffic control computer that handles traffic flow, adjusting speed and
route to prevent accidents and prevent gridlock.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 11:23:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Ayers)
Date: Fri Aug 23 10:23:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RU Off-Topic(***)
Message-ID: <000801c24ac8$da16ff10$2f7de40c@loki>

Do the volume of x-boat mail of interest to few--beyond those involved
in conversations with each other about topics of limited
interest--decline in galactic summer(*)?

(*)Galactic Summer: the period when known space passes into an active
region of electromagnetic and charged-particle streams in its few
hundred million year voyage around the galactic core.(**)

(**)Recent estimates are that the period of rotation around the Galaxy's
Core range from about 227 to 240 million years.

(***)Can we please focus a wee bit more on Traveller?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 11:27:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug 23 10:27:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Non-prevalence of grav vehicles on lower tech worlds...
In-Reply-To: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPAELJEGAA.max200@lanset.com>
Message-ID: <B98BBD52.6AC39%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/23/02 9:38 AM, Maksim-Smelchak at max200@lanset.com wrote:

> I personally see a minimum tech level for grav vehicles to become prevale=
nt.
> I see cheap wheeled vehicles and GEVs (hovercraft) being much more the ma=
in
> stay of many worlds especially periphery ones. Terrain would, of course,
> dictate what sort of vehicles would work best.
>=20
> Cheers,
> Maksim-Smelchak.

True.  Wheeled vehicles are just so simple and efficient.  Even when grav
vehicles become available, I think it will be a long time before they
replace wheeled vehicles.  Grav vehicles will probably replace aircraft lon=
g
before anyone starts driving them for regular commuting, although they may
make more sense on undeveloped worlds with little infrastructure, in much
the same fashion that bush planes are used in remote and undeveloped areas.

It's interesting to note that GEVs like hovercraft have had very little
impact on general transportation.  They are useful in certain limited
niches, but not for much else.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 11:31:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug 23 10:31:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1030122495.7515.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B98BBE45.6AC3A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/23/02 10:08 AM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@iii.com wrote:

> Thomas Barnes writes:
>> On reflection, I think that maybe submarine combat is a better model for
>> Traveller space combat than surface naval engagements.
>=20
> Depends on your sensor assumptions.  Realistically, stealth is damned
> difficult
> in space, so most battles will evolve into rather dull mid to long range
> slugging matches, not people sneaking around sniping at one another.

I'm not so sure this is true.  We manage to miss asteroids that are
plummeting towards the earth all the time.

It may in fact be very easy to 'hide' in space.  After all, you're talking
about a relatively small object in a very large area.  And if you are
'running silent' there may not be much to see.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 11:35:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Aug 23 10:35:39 2002
Subject: [TML] District 268, fleets and the type T cruiser
Message-ID: <F260yxX81He52LZghyi000044af@hotmail.com>

From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor@rctrevor.com>

     "I ran a similar campaign a few years ago.  It started with the
PCs in active service ... the crew of a Gazelle CE wandering all over the 
Spinward Marches.  Eventually, they ended up in Glisten Subsector at the 
start of the 5FW, and were reassigned to the 214th fleet.  Their new job was 
called "Irregular Operations" (nicknamed "the odd job squad"): they 
sometimes ran short deep space patrols for the fleet, checked out gas giants 
for enemy SDBs prior to the fleet refueling,  did search & rescue 
(recovering fighter pilots after combat),  covertly transported spies to 
independant worlds in District 268, and so on."


Mr. Trevor,

     Having PCs in the "Small Navy" is infinitely more fun then posting them 
to a BatRon.  BBs may show the flag, but very little occurs while they're 
showing it!
     IMTU, the IN mimics RN/USN organization with administrative commanders 
for vessels depending on their types/roles.  Just as the USN has a 
ComSubLant(sic), that is commander of all submarines in the Atlantic, the IN 
will have a ComEscGlis, commander of all escorts in the Glisten subsector.
     This doesn't mean that all escorts fight under ComEscGlis, they'll be 
assigned to fleets or independent ops, it's just that they belong to an 
intermediate organization for supply, support, repair, and training 
purposes.
     Thus, the IN's subsector staff in Glisten may be comprised of several 
type commanders in addition to the normal fleet and squadron commanders.  
There'll be a ComBatGlis, ComCruGlis, ComCarGlis, ComMonGlis ComSDBGlis, 
ComFightGlis, ComAuxGlis, ComEscGlis, and so forth.  Other subsectors will 
have the same positions.  Sectors and domains will have them too.  
ComEscGlis will report escort issues to ComEscSpin and she will in turn 
report to ComEscDDeb(1).


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

(1) DDeb to differentiate domain level command from Deneb sector level 
command; DDeb vs. Deb, DSol vs. Sol, DVla vs. Vla, etc.

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 11:39:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug 23 10:39:05 2002
Subject: [TML] ABBA Trav filk....aieeeeeeeee!!!!!
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGENOCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>
To: "'tml@travellercentral.com'" <tml@travellercentral.com>
>
>>"Glenn M. Goffin" wrote:
>
>>Don't _make_ me repost my ABBA Trav filk....
>
>Thanks alot! Now I've got that hideous tune running about my head, and it
>will probably rattle around there for the rest of the day!!!

Don't blame me!  John Groth made that threat, which you've wrongly
attributed -- stop! stop!  aiieeeeee!!!!!!! they're INSIDE MY HEAD!!!!!
THEY'RE aaaaaiiiiieeee yag-ag suth c'thul-hu ma-ag chu a-yag....

We now return to our regularly scheduled programming.

--Glenn

-


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 11:41:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug 23 10:41:59 2002
Subject: [TML] USS America - Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <F1070L4w4oNJMtFPOF400013412@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B98BC02D.6AC3D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/23/02 10:13 AM, Larsen E. Whipsnade at grote1731@hotmail.com wrote:

> From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>=20
> True.  BTW, they're now "Defensive Fighting Positions".
>=20
>=20
> Mr. Glenn,
>=20
> Just like zippers are really "interlocking slide fasteners"?
>=20

I used to laugh when I explained this to my men.  A foxhole is a scraping i=
n
the ground made by the untrained to hide in.  A defensive fighting position
is a well constructed earthenwork position from which trained infantry
conduct combat operations.  The characteristic of a DFP are cover,
concealment, size and shape, fields of fire and 'optional'.  Optional are
things like grenade sumps, firing steps, etc.

It's really just milspeak.  Just like that fact that we no longer have the
'front'.  It's now the FEBA (Forward Edge of the Battle Area).
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 11:45:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug 23 10:45:55 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Frontier Wars; High Value targets
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDEENOCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: john.groth@us.army.mil
>
>Don't _make_ me repost my ABBA Trav filk....
>

ABBA ... Trav ... filk????









aieeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! yag sothoth! ug'kuchu'ga!
aieeeeee.....

We now return to our regularly scheduled programming.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 11:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug 23 10:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RIP
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDIENOCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

I'll miss Chaplain Bari and General Turokan.  He was a good presence on the
list.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 11:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Fri Aug 23 10:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Solomani influences
In-Reply-To: <02740A3D0809D5118C7C00034707E9F3056F169D@ussvlexc10.corp.netapp.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0208231046470.19206-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>


On Tue, 20 Aug 2002, DeGraff, Jesse wrote:

> When I went to Dragon*Con last year, my roomate & I were walking down
> the street from our hotel to the conference hotel when we noticed that
> the manhole covers in Atlanta look EXACTLY like the Sol symbol :)
> I'll try and remember to post a pic when I get home tonight.


When I saw the Starport Authority logo in GT:Starports, with the obvious
Sol symbol on the planet, I thought "there must have been some SolSec mole
on *that* design committee...

:)

Rob


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 11:56:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Aug 23 10:56:36 2002
Subject: [TML] USS America - Naval crew accommodation
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E83@USCHM203>

>Douglas Berry wrote:
 {In response to}
>"I've often wondered about the mindset that make one choose the Navy over
the
>Army, or the reverse.  Why do some of us like to sail into the sunset,
while
>other are attracted to snuggling down into a mud hole?  Why do some prefer
>the remote clash of giant engines hurtling death at each other over the
>water, while other prefer a more personal and up close form of engagement."

>Partly family tradition, partly persdnal preference.  I wanted to be doing 
>something, not laboring away in an engine room while my fate was handled by

>people I'd never met.  At least as an infantry man, I had a rifle and could

>depend on myself if everything else went to hell.

I'm with Doug on this point. Everyone down the line in my family was a
ground-pounder, probably back to some blue painted maniac cursing Caesar's
fleet from the beaches of Britain.
I also agree with the autonomy of the individual infantryman. Yes, you are
part of a team, but you are also an individual, and if worst comes to worst,
you can always crawl into a hole or take cover in the rubble
somewhere---something you cannot do as part of a tank crew, and certainly
not as part of a ship crew.
I mentioned, during the thread on massed fighter attacks, that there is a
similar "safety in numbers" feeling to being an infantry man. You are one of
dozens or even hundreds of widelyscattered individuals, so in your mind you
figure, rationally or not, that there's a fair chance that it won't be you
that gets hit.
When you are inside one of a handful of vehicles, or inside one of a very
few ships, that feeling of anonymity just isn't there.
And quite frankly, these days, hitting a vehicle usually means killing a
vehicle, and anyone inside. Less so for ships, but doubly so for subs.
I'm only speaking for myself, of course. I was always in good shape(used to
be, anyway) and most of the requirements for infantry just came naturally to
me. Growing up with a professional soccer player for a father made the
fitness requirements of the Marine Corps something of a cake-job for me. I
also had no problem following orders. Any "attitude" I had I left behind in
High School.(unless it was directed towards other branches:)
I enjoyed the outdoors(a little less since the service), liked climbing,
hiking, and so on, and was a pretty good shot. I also had fairly good
reflexes and actually seemed to perform better under pressure. 
I don't mean this as bragging, it's just that some people are better suited
for this type of thing than others.
Of course, I've never seen combat, so all of the above might not mean a damn
thing, but it certainly doesn't hurt.
As it was, I could have chosen any MOS, but did not see the point in joining
the Corps to work on truck engines or file personnel folders. Not the best
choice in preparing for a civilian career, and if my son joins the service I
will try to steer him into something technical and more transferable to
civilian life (with as much success as my father, no doubt).

>ObTrav:  Inter-service opinions.  What does the average Marine think of the

>Army tanker?  What do they both think of the Navy?

Funny that should come up. I'm going out carousing tonight with an ex-Abrams
crewman. While from different branches, and while we probably would have had
a bit of a rivalry in active service, we do have a kinship that comes from
being in the "teeth" branches, and much of our experience is comaparable,
unlike between either of us and a Navy or Air Force member.
Not surprisingly, both of us make digs (good-natured, of course) at the Navy
;)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 11:59:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug 23 10:59:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Non-prevalence of grav vehicles on lower tech worlds...
Message-ID: <200208231740.NKH01163@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>It's interesting to note that GEVs like hovercraft have had 
>very little impact on general transportation.  They are 
>useful in certain limited niches, but not for much else.

Try going up hill in one, or around a corner very fast.

There are even sea state limitations - size is important for 
a GEV that crosses the ocean.  

I'm thinking that the "air raft" is more of a plot device 
that gets characters to and from a ship/ground destination 
without having to detail the local transportation.
________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 12:03:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Gregory Carl Kettler)
Date: Fri Aug 23 11:03:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <B98BBE45.6AC3A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0208231235550.23117-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>

On Fri, 23 Aug 2002, Tod Glenn wrote:
> I'm not so sure this is true.  We manage to miss asteroids that are
> plummeting towards the earth all the time.

It's a discussion this list has been over before, as I recall.  The
main thrust of the argument was that a ship with a fusion power plant
of the output we see in Traveller has to radiate that energy or melt, and
that amount of radiation should be easy to spot.  By not generating any
power, the asteroid is in a stealth mode no starship can match.

	Gregory Kettler
	"Hmmmm...  I've never eaten hobbit before."
			--Dave, KODT


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 12:06:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug 23 11:06:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Absent Friends
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKENPCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: GypsyComet@aol.com
>
>The General was a resident of California, and of a charming city called
>Stockton, if I recall one of his early posts.  All of us attending one of
the
>events in the SF Bay Area this Labor Day, be it WorldCon or ConQuest (SF
and
>game conventions, respectively), should find time for a drink to absent
>friends.  Any takers, and suggestions as to a time and place at each
>gathering?

I shall be attending much of ConQuest.  Let's look for each other.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 12:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Aug 23 11:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <B98BBE45.6AC3A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1030125203.5627.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
> 
> I'm not so sure this is true.  We manage to miss asteroids that are
> plummeting towards the earth all the time.

Yeah, well, we're not really looking for them, and unlike a typical Traveller
spaceship, asteroids don't glow.  Also, we generally do spot those objects by
the time they're within reasonable combat range (a couple of light-seconds).
> 
> It may in fact be very easy to 'hide' in space.  After all, you're talking
> about a relatively small object in a very large area.  And if you are
> 'running silent' there may not be much to see.

Ignoring on-board heat sources, a 100 meter object (30,000 dtons or so, a
mid-sized warship) will have an overall apparent magnitude (at 1 AU) of about
21; if you somehow manage to eliminate 99% of incoming sunlight in a difficult
to detect manner way this becomes a 26.  At 5 light-seconds (very long range in
most versions of traveller, and far enough that light-lag makes targets
basically unhittable) that becomes an apparent magnitude of 16, which is
basically trackable with a 6" telescope.

The limits of Traveller sensors are unclear and vary with the ruleset, but if
you have tech that lets you build lasers with ranges of multiple light-seconds,
scanning every 20th magnitude object in the heavens every few minutes shouldn't
be that challenging.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 12:15:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug 23 11:15:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <B98BBBD5.6AC34%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B98BBBD5.6AC34%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m3ofbtfooi.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> 
> >> And no Segway jokes, please...
> > 
> > What's a 'segway' please?
> 
> He means segue.

Nope--Segway: <http://www.segway.com/>.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in
doing it.                                            --G.K. Chesterton

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 12:18:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug 23 11:18:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
Message-ID: <200208231751.NKH02240@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Not that it works this way IMTU, because it's very non-
Traveller, but I envision ships as being vehicles that deploy 
weapon and sensor drones that communicate with a central (and 
perhaps even a backup) ship via laser communicator.

You could get a very wide baseline array going with a setup 
like this.

The novel Forever War has a ship battle at the end that seems 
to cover this idea.

I've always wondered why the nuclear-bomb pumped X-ray laser 
never made it into CT (even after the fact) while it made it 
into other things such as Traveller 2300.  I keep reading 
stuff from Sandia and LLNL that say that the concept is 
perfectly valid (they got things to lase in underground 
nuclear tests).  I can't see why such a weapon would not be 
at least as powerful as any spinal mount weapon, and would 
bring us around to the idea of an extremely dangerous mine or 
torpedo that could attack at the edge of defensive beam 
weapon range.

Detonation lasers mounted on high endurance missiles with a 
burst speed capability and detonation submunitions for 
defense seem to be very non-Traveller.  But I like them.
________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 12:23:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Maksim-Smelchak)
Date: Fri Aug 23 11:23:38 2002
Subject: [TML] GEVs, WIGs, and airships on low tech worlds...
In-Reply-To: <B98BBD52.6AC39%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPMELMEGAA.max200@lanset.com>

>>> It's interesting to note that GEVs like hovercraft have had very little
impact on general
>>>transportation.  They are useful in certain limited niches, but not for
much else. >>>

There's no argument that GEVs (hovercraft) have more moving parts (and
therefore more complication) than their wheeled equivalents, but at our tech
level, they can definitely be made as cheaply or more cheaply than what we
currently have. I personally don't understand (inviting explanations) why we
don't have more hovercraft. The local university engineering departments
regularly build them for just a few hundred dollars USD (probably as a
lark). Ever tried pricing golf carts? Maybe golf carts are a bad example
since they are provided for a niche market, but still I can't imagine that a
TL-8 world couldn't provide GEVs that could compete in the civilian market.

For that matter, airships and WIGs (PARWIGs or wing in ground effect
aircraft) could much more cheaply transport goods than current conventional
air carriers. Maybe it's the ghost of the Hindenburg still floating about...
The Russians have certainly built some WIGs that were mighty impressive. The
good thing is that this technology is starting to filter down into civvie
markets. Several Euro and Russo-Euro compnaies are building or planning to
build WIG aircraft.

Cheers,
Maksim-Smelchak.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Tod Glenn
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2002 10:22 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Non-prevalence of grav vehicles on lower tech worlds...
on 8/23/02 9:38 AM, Maksim-Smelchak wrote:
> I personally see a minimum tech level for grav vehicles to become
prevalent.
> I see cheap wheeled vehicles and GEVs (hovercraft) being much more the
main
> stay of many worlds especially periphery ones. Terrain would, of course,
> dictate what sort of vehicles would work best.
> Cheers,
> Maksim-Smelchak.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 12:27:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug 23 11:27:06 2002
Subject: [TML] About the hazards of being in the infantry
Message-ID: <200208231818.NKH05303@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Hurrel, Brian says
<snip about infantry, safety in numbers>

I was an infantryman myself, and I liked it, up until the 
point where I saw several Iraqi positions hit by MLRS.

Ever been in some roleplaying situation (a bad adventure, 
say) and the GM says, "Everyone takes 6D6...".  That's being 
hit by bomblets by surprise.  Kinda like several full auto 
RAM GL using flechette hitting the entire party at once


People were caught outdoors, and the bomblets bounced in 
through slits and open bunker doors.  I got the distinct 
impression that there was no warning at all (MLRS does not 
require any correction shots, so the fire for effect thingie 
is right now).

We saw the site up close later, and there weren't even any 
wounded.  Since all of the vehicles in the area were 
thrashed, I don't think anyone got away.
________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 12:31:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug 23 11:31:15 2002
Subject: [TML] District 268, fleets and the type T cruiser
In-Reply-To: <F260yxX81He52LZghyi000044af@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020823110644.009ef2d0@mindspring.com>

At 05:30 PM 8/23/02 +0000, you wrote:

>There'll be a ComBatGlis, ComCruGlis, ComCarGlis, ComMonGlis ComSDBGlis, 
>ComFightGlis, ComAuxGlis, ComEscGlis, and so forth.  Other subsectors will 
>have the same positions.  Sectors and domains will have them too.
>ComEscGlis will report escort issues to ComEscSpin and she will in turn 
>report to ComEscDDeb(1).

I'd think that SDBs would be a local command issue.  If they aren't, might 
I humbly suggest that a better title would be ComSysGlis for Commander, 
System Defenses, Glisten Subsector?

-- 

Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.
gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Author of GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces
Geek Code: tc tm tn- t4-- tg++$ ru ge+ 3i+@ c+
            jt- au pi he+ as+ so-                           



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 12:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Aug 23 11:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] GEVs, WIGs, and airships on low tech worlds...
In-Reply-To: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPMELMEGAA.max200@lanset.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1030127780.7419.ajackson@ping>

Maksim-Smelchak writes:
> 
> There's no argument that GEVs (hovercraft) have more moving parts (and
> therefore more complication) than their wheeled equivalents, but at our
> tech level, they can definitely be made as cheaply or more cheaply than
> what we currently have. I personally don't understand (inviting
> explanations) why we don't have more hovercraft.

Mostly because hovercraft are actually not very good vehicles for most
purposes; they're noisy, they're inefficient, they can't go through brush
unless extremely large, and they can't climb any significant slope.  

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 12:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Aug 23 11:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Enigma intercepts and en/decryption
References: <F234jc0D543TuylJc0x000001d4@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D668205.5080903@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
 > the RN was reading the
> German's minds via Huff-Duff and real-time Enigma 

Just a minor correction. At NO time during the war were Enigma 
intercepts anything like 'real time'.

They got faster when some of the really big 'bombes' went online, and on 
good days when when lots of orders went out to the weather ships(1), but 
there was also the operational security around Ultra. There *always* had 
to be a plausible other source for the decrypt before they released the 
intel.

(1)The most reliable, and useful source of matched text for Enigma 
decrypts were the messages sent to the weather ships, which used an 
older, much simpler substitution cipher. Amazingly, the German High 
Command apparently never twigged to the fact that sending the same 
message in two encipherment systems merely helps the enemy crack codes.

But who am I to say anything. Our government thinks that by keeping 
encryption algorithms secret they're preventing decryption.

All they're doing is ensuring that the weaknesses never get pointed out.

Now...in the 3I, I wonder if important orders are simply never 
broadcast, but delivered by hand. This would account for the vast fleets 
of scout/couriers about. Tactical orders in a battle would be broadcast, 
but likely only on tight beam commos, and would involve serious 
encryption. I rather doubt the race between the code makers and code 
breakers will have slowed down or even changed all that appreciably.

Faster computers to decrypt bigger and bigger decrypt keys will only 
allow people to rapidly generate and apply even larger ones.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 12:46:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug 23 11:46:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0208231235550.23117-100000@harper.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <B98BD03D.6AC57%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/23/02 10:40 AM, Gregory Carl Kettler at gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu
wrote:

> On Fri, 23 Aug 2002, Tod Glenn wrote:
>> I'm not so sure this is true.  We manage to miss asteroids that are
>> plummeting towards the earth all the time.
>=20
> It's a discussion this list has been over before, as I recall.  The
> main thrust of the argument was that a ship with a fusion power plant
> of the output we see in Traveller has to radiate that energy or melt, and
> that amount of radiation should be easy to spot.  By not generating any
> power, the asteroid is in a stealth mode no starship can match.
>=20


I guess that was my question.  If a ship were to enter a system way out fro=
m
the inhabited system, apply thrusts, and coast in ('silent running') how
detectable would it be.  Obviously, and ship under power is going to be
fairly easy to detect (unless using some drive system that doesn't have
detectable emission.)

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 12:50:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug 23 11:50:08 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Prevalence of grav vehicles
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEOACEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
>What's the transition for civilians?
>
>I'm still working on Vilis - it's low tech enough that I'm
>wondering how the average civilian gets around.

We've had some discussion about this on the list over the years.  Here's my
opinion:  I think that affordable gravitic technology, coupled with
continued developments in communications and computers, will completely
transform the developed environment.

Grav vehicles are vastly superior to ground vehicles in the urban
environment for many reasons.  A commitment to grav transportation will
largely alleviate the cost of buiding and maintaining road infrastructure.
Grav vehicles are not subject to traffic jams.  Grav vehicles have fewer
parking issues.  Grav vehicles are much faster than ground vehicles,
especially outside areas.

For these reasons, grav vehicles will be mass marketed to civilians.  That
will be especially true by the Far Future, when they will have been in use
for thousands of years.  Grav vehicles They will completely supplant the
ground vehicle in societies that can manage repair and traffic safety.

Most traffic will be in the air.  The top several floors of major buildings
will be devoted to parking.  Ground vehicles may still be used to carry very
heavy loads slowly, but will be the exception.

Cities that are first built at TL 9+ (that is, cities on most colonized
worlds) will not have street grids and street addresses.  There will be
spaces between buildings, and there will have to be enough space for
emergency vehicles to get access.  I expect that ambulances and fire engines
will routinely send their personnel in through the buildings' windows.

In urban areas, grav traffic control ("GTC") will govern virtually all
flight operations.  You'll enter your destination, or a sightseeing route,
into your vehicle's computer/communicator, and GTC will control and monitor
your vehicle.  If there is too much traffic on a certain vector, GTC will
shift some vehicles up, down, or sideways -- so there will be no traffic
jams.

Outside of the GTC control zone, you have to fly your own vehicle, although
vehicles will ordinarily have autopilots, and satellite positioning will
have a seamless interface with your com/comm.

Public transit can be gravitic, as well, but there are some advantages to
trains, like the ability to move really large numbers of workers cheaply
(and they are fun for gaming), I would expect an urban area to have some of
each.  Trains will likely use frictionless magnetic levitation (like the
Regina mag-lev line from Credo to Reyna).

>Given the price of an air/raft, I'm not sure that many people would have
them - which means I'm going to >have a lot of highways.

Try building civilian vehicles with Striker rules; see the early JTAS
article on that subject.  They're pretty affordable.  I don't know where the
CT price of Cr600,000 comes from -- it must be a solid gold (not gold
plated) air/raft.  (101 Vehicles focusses on high-end civilian grav
vehicles, and does not contribute much to this discussion -- they are
talking about Lear Jets rather than than Toyota Corollas.)

>There is an allusion in Book 4 that states that grav vehicles do not "fly"
at first like aircraft - that they are
>merely grav sleds.  If the price was low enough, I could see this replacing
wheeled vehicles, but the
>road would be different.

I'll have to dig up Book 4; I don't remember this item.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 12:54:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug 23 11:54:14 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Non-prevalence of grav vehicles on lower tech worlds...
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEOBCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
>
>Cheap wheeled vehicles would appear on many lower-tech worlds, because they
are
>in fact very cheap.  GEVs aren't so cheap, and probably won't be more
common
>than they are today.

Paved roads are not cheap.  Real backwaters will have roads made by simply
driving over the same track a lot.  Such roads will have a lot of holes and
bumps, and will eventually destroy cheap (and expensive) wheeled vehicles.
If the prices of grav vehicles and GEV are low enough, people will import
them and not use the roads at all.  This could be a good niche market for a
free trader -- especially one with ethically challenged contacts on a TL 9
or 10 world to provide vehicles unburdened by documentation.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 12:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug 23 11:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1030125203.5627.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B98BD361.6AC5B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/23/02 10:53 AM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@iii.com wrote:

>>=20
>> It may in fact be very easy to 'hide' in space.  After all, you're talki=
ng
>> about a relatively small object in a very large area.  And if you are
>> 'running silent' there may not be much to see.
>=20
> Ignoring on-board heat sources, a 100 meter object (30,000 dtons or so, a
> mid-sized warship) will have an overall apparent magnitude (at 1 AU) of a=
bout
> 21; if you somehow manage to eliminate 99% of incoming sunlight in a diff=
icult
> to detect manner way this becomes a 26.  At 5 light-seconds (very long ra=
nge
> in
> most versions of traveller, and far enough that light-lag makes targets
> basically unhittable) that becomes an apparent magnitude of 16, which is
> basically trackable with a 6" telescope.

Forgive me for being stupid, I'm no astronomer.  But don't you have to know
where to look before you can track.  The detecting spacecraft (unlike
terrestrial observers) has to scan in all directions.

Let's assume we are looking for that 100 meter ship.  Let's say that the
target vessel is a cone or flattened wedge that has incorporated stealth
characteristics.  It's relatively non-reflective and is approaching head on
at a 'coast'.

How difficult is the ship to acquire?  If it's trackable with the afore
mentioned 6" telescope how long does it take the detecting vessel to scan
that 5 light second globe around it?
>=20
> The limits of Traveller sensors are unclear and vary with the ruleset, bu=
t if
> you have tech that lets you build lasers with ranges of multiple
> light-seconds,
> scanning every 20th magnitude object in the heavens every few minutes
> shouldn't
> be that challenging.

Any idea what our current technology is?  How long would it take now to sca=
n
every 20th magnitude object in a globe around the earth?

I'm just trying to figure out if there is any way to achieve some kind of
surprise in space combat.  Or is it just "Here they come, we'll make contac=
t
in x minutes"?  If that's the case, then it seems that there can really be
no meaningful maneuver in space combat.  It's just a matter of two fleets
slugging it out until one withdraws or is destroyed, and victory is really
just a matter of ship capabilities and hit probability.  One could probably
tell the outcome before the first shot was fired, and where's the fun in
that?

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 13:01:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug 23 12:01:12 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Prevalence of grav vehicles
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEOBCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>
>One of the problems with any kind of flying 'car' in general use is going
to be making one the 'failsafe'.  >Just about everyone has had car problems.
When you're driving down the road, this is not a problem,
>you just pull over to the side of the road.  When you have car problems at
10,000 feet, that's another
>story.  And accidents at altitude are another bit of nasty business
>
>Also, as you note, there is great impetus to take driving out of the hands
of the driver.  Car companies
>are working steadily towards the auto-piloted car.  It's just too dangerous
a vehicle to be left in the
>hands of humans.

Grav vehicles will have to monitor themselves and not allow take-off if they
are unsafe.  This may very annoying to consumers: "It ran fine yesterday,
and today it refuses to activate the grav plates -- it says 'Error in Module
404:  transynch chromotove actuation relay requires service.'  Is there a
work-around, or do I have to have it carried to the shop?"

Accidents in urban areas will be avoided by use of grav traffic control.

This is not to say that accidents won't happen and that vehicles won't fail
in the air.  The societies of the Far Future will develop a level of
tolerance for acceptable risk, just as we do today.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 13:05:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Fri Aug 23 12:05:58 2002
Subject: [TML] re:   Non-prevalence of grav vehicles on lower tech worlds...
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEOBCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>
>True.  Wheeled vehicles are just so simple and efficient.  Even when grav
>vehicles become available, I think it will be a long time before they
>replace wheeled vehicles.

The Vilani have already had grav technology for about 10,000 years -- I
think that's long enough for even that conservative by-the-book culture to
be making extensive use of personal grav vehicles -- and the by-the-book
aspect will have long since made sure that such use is safe.

Given the Terran penchant for trying new things, the conquerors of the Ziru
Sirka will probably adapt to the new grav paradigm very quickly.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 13:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug 23 12:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEOACEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <B98BD6F8.6AC61%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/23/02 11:41 AM, Glenn M. Goffin at gmgoffin@earthlink.net wrote:

>=20
> Grav vehicles are vastly superior to ground vehicles in the urban
> environment for many reasons.

In general, I agree.  However, wheeled vehicles do not plummet to the groun=
d
because the operator forgot to fill the tank, change the oil, fix the tire
or perform any other preventive maintenance.  They don't auger in because
some part failed. And there are limits to how much damage a speeding wheele=
d
vehicle can do.  A car is pretty much confined to a certain area so even if
it goes out of control, the disaster will be limited.  Now imagine a grav
vehicle, speeding along at a much higher velocity, plowing into the side of
some building because there is no curb or divider or anything else to stop
it.

Now make that grav car a grav 'semi' with a drowsy driver and an autopilot
that needs to be fixed.

Grav vehicles will have to be extremely mature and reliable technology
before they become feasible for common usage.  Much more than current
automobiles.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 13:15:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Aug 23 12:15:16 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Non-prevalence of grav vehicles on lower tech worlds...
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEOBCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1030129981.4086.ajackson@ping>

Glenn M. Goffin writes:
> 
> Paved roads are not cheap.  Real backwaters will have roads made by simply
> driving over the same track a lot.  Such roads will have a lot of holes and
> bumps, and will eventually destroy cheap (and expensive) wheeled vehicles.

All this is true.  However, it's hard for a grav vehicle to compete on price
with a $50 bicycle.  Competing with light trucks may be easier, depending on
ruleset and on exactly how far the truck needs to travel; in GURPS Traveller, a
stripped down TL 10 5 ton light grav truck is about $40,000 (TL 10 currency;
around $130k with TL 7 currency) and is enough faster and more manueverable
than a ground vehicle that it would be instantly competitive with TL 7 trucks.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 13:19:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug 23 12:19:31 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEOBCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <B98BD832.6AC62%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/23/02 11:55 AM, Glenn M. Goffin at gmgoffin@earthlink.net wrote:

> Grav vehicles will have to monitor themselves and not allow take-off if t=
hey
> are unsafe.  This may very annoying to consumers: "It ran fine yesterday,
> and today it refuses to activate the grav plates -- it says 'Error in Mod=
ule
> 404:  transynch chromotove actuation relay requires service.'  Is there a
> work-around, or do I have to have it carried to the shop?"

Doesn't this require the monitoring system to be able to predict just about
every probably fault.  And that the monitoring system itself is not at
fault.
>=20
> Accidents in urban areas will be avoided by use of grav traffic control.
>=20
> This is not to say that accidents won't happen and that vehicles won't fa=
il
> in the air.  The societies of the Far Future will develop a level of
> tolerance for acceptable risk, just as we do today.

I agree, but grav vehicles will have to be much more reliable and idiot
proof than modern automobiles just to achieve the same level of safety.  Th=
e
way I see it, while grav technology may be introduced at TL 8 (which seem
pretty unlikely), but it's doubtful that they will be in general civilian
use until several tech levels higher.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 13:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Aug 23 12:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] About the hazards of being in the infantry
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E88@USCHM203>

"John T. Kwon" 
<snip about infantry, safety in numbers>

>I was an infantryman myself, and I liked it, up until the 
>point where I saw several Iraqi positions hit by MLRS.

>Ever been in some roleplaying situation (a bad adventure, 
>say) and the GM says, "Everyone takes 6D6...".  That's being 
>hit by bomblets by surprise.  Kinda like several full auto 
>RAM GL using flechette hitting the entire party at once

>People were caught outdoors, and the bomblets bounced in 
>through slits and open bunker doors.  I got the distinct 
>impression that there was no warning at all (MLRS does not 
>require any correction shots, so the fire for effect thingie 
>is right now).

>We saw the site up close later, and there weren't even any 
>wounded.  Since all of the vehicles in the area were 
>thrashed, I don't think anyone got away.

That's why it's better to be on the offensive, I guess. Sitting in a
prepared defensive position in the desert(as opposed to the mountains,
forest, or city) isn't much better than being in a vehicle. An obvious
target.
I'm not a big fan of bunkers and minefields and Atlantic Walls and Maginot
lines, especially these days. At most they might delay an attack, but
they'll never win a battle.
Beyond squad tactics I'm not much good, but if I were an Iraqui knowing what
I was up against, the closest I'd have been to any of my comrades would be
shouting distance.
I'd also have been as far as possible from any vehicles, for the same reason
every infantryman in WWII, whatever the nation, didn't want to be near a
tank or field gun---because it attracts attention and, of course, lots of
incoming fire.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 13:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Fri Aug 23 12:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] drugs
In-Reply-To: <B9893691.6A916%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0208231215330.19206-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>

(Sorry, still 300 messages behind - but I'm trying... :)

On Wed, 21 Aug 2002, Tod Glenn wrote:

> This has always been a question of mine.  How does the Imperium stay
> together without a unified Imperial culture and a unified body of laws.  And
> how does the Imperium conduct wars if the member worlds don't see the
> opposition as a direct threat.  "It's an Imperial thing, and doesn't involve
> us."
>
> Frankly, I just don't see how the Imperium can be anything other than a very
> loose and weak confederation.  It is certainly not an empire.  It seems more
> like a high tech Balkans.

Which is why I have said before that I (who like the idea of a relatively
strong empire at least in the core, older sectors) think the Imperium
would be trying to promote cohesiveness, for it's own survival and
preservation or improvement of the trade environment (follow the money).
How do they make membership in the Imperium worthwhile for member
worlds? For if it's just the threat of the IN descending on a rebellious
system, then I think the 3I would have fragmented long ago and empires
wouldn't be that big.

Protection for frontier areas and enforcement of fair trade (?) would be
worth a lot. And they do provide value and incentive to some extent with
the X-Boat system (depending on how much info they carry IYTU).  They
could do more (and do, IM-coalescing-TU) by carrying more news and
educational and cultural information from around the Imperium, or at least
the Core to help people see more of what's going on in the 3I.

Establishing, disseminating and enforcing standards (for interstellar
commerce at least) could help.  Providing information, library data, or
just the tech knowledge to improve one's world (well, I can see lots of
holes in that one - patents, legal issues - I'd been thining of "here's
the plans for a standard low-end model water purification system for the
struggling young colonies" public service type-info, but it's a stretch.)

Providing standard models for educational systems, helping establish
sector universities, research programs; sector and imperial military
academies (one long training voyage there, a couple years intense
training, and a long apprentice-type voyage to your first duty
assignment).

Promoting a sense of belonging, tradition, etc.  I would expect people
from the core sectors to have a more tradition bound attitude and outlook
than those in the marches.

Any other ideas?  ("Work with me people, I'm trying to [conceptually] hold
the entire Imperium together.  Now once again, 5-6-7-8..." oops, where'd
that come from? :)

Rob


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 13:47:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Aug 23 12:47:36 2002
Subject: Subject: Re: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E89@USCHM203>

Regardless of reality, IMTU ship's are hard to find when they are running
"silent". Hulls are black, infrared emissions are damped, and unless
"active" there will be no electromagnetic emissions.
Active scanners will obviously make it easier to detect enemy ships, but it
will also light you up for all the world to see, and do so far beyond the
range of said scanners. In other words, if you are active, you can be seen
farther away than you can see.
Maneuvering also serves as a nice advertisement, and the most obvious tactic
would be to jump into a system already on a desired vector to bring you
close to your target.
One thing I could see is an equivalent to the sonobouy. This is a remote
active scanner that transmits data to a ship or command post. It gives away
it's own position, but who cares? If one gets taken out, bring another
online.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 13:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Aug 23 12:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <B98BD361.6AC5B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1030132732.2749.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:

> Forgive me for being stupid, I'm no astronomer.  But don't you have to know
> where to look before you can track.

Yes, you do; certainly, you're not going to routinely spot magnitude 25 objects
on a whole sky scan.  However, scanning the entire sky nightly at 15th
magnitude is not a huge project with modern technology (cheap relative to a
single starship) and could reasonably be expected to get cheaper, plus it
becomes easier if the sensor is in space anyway.  How much you can exceed this
limit depends primarily on electronics, which is pretty much exploding at the
moment, so 20th magnitude in an hour by 2010 or 2015 doesn't seem all that
unlikely.

> Any idea what our current technology is?  How long would it take now to
> scan every 20th magnitude object in a globe around the earth?

With existing systems, a couple of days.
> 
> I'm just trying to figure out if there is any way to achieve some kind of
> surprise in space combat.  Or is it just "Here they come, we'll make
> contact in x minutes"?

Usually the latter.

> If that's the case, then it seems that there can
> really be no meaningful maneuver in space combat.  It's just a matter of two
> fleets slugging it out until one withdraws or is destroyed, and victory is
> really just a matter of ship capabilities and hit probability.  One could
> probably tell the outcome before the first shot was fired, and where's the
> fun in that?

Surprise would tend to be at a strategic level in Traveller, because jumping is
blind, and ships which are landed can be concealed efficiently.  Unless there's
unknowns in ship capabilities (which there probably would be), the outcome of
most battles would be fairly obvious before the fight starts.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 14:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 23 13:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: WIG, ACV, and Grav
Message-ID: <14d.12df6d7b.2a97eebb@aol.com>

While WIG designs are capable of getting quite large, and get large cheaper 
than conventional aircraft, apparently, they also have horrendous maintenance 
issues, mostly to do with the skin of the aircraft and the bird-proofing (and 
sand, gravel, salt, water, and the occasional tree-proofing) the engines.

Air cushion vehicles of the hovercraft type have a number of the same 
problems, though weight concerns are even less than with WIG designs so 
armored skin and tougher engines are more likely.
The reason(s) such craft aren't all over the civilian market is that they 
still have a much higher maintenance cost per mile than a car, despite 
actually having *fewer* moving parts (depending on powerplant and 
lift-and-drive specifics).  They are also hard to control compared to a 
wheeled vehicle, as anyone who has ever played with an airboat (the closest 
common relative) can attest.
Hills?  Bah. They'll DO hills, but they won't do stop signs ON hills. With a 
good hovercraft, you're hopping that hill, but you won't be stopping on it 
anywhere (note that I'm not using the Californian definition of "hill", some 
of which are 1000' high...), nor are you turning much, and once you start 
downward, there is no turning around...
That said, I'm told that the US Navy designs will hop your standard eastern 
seaboard coastal dunes with very little help.

Grav vehicles in the civilian world will definitely shape construction at the 
building and community level.  Cities developed under this model are likely 
to turn out looking like Coruscant, or New York as seen in Fifth Element (or 
A.I. for that matter).  City planners may still include anachronisms like 
extensive "rail" lines for local transit, since a flying car can be overkill 
for some things. Local rail will also get very common simply for the density 
possible, once cities get really big, or transform to arcologies and can no 
longer afford to have fliers under the dome...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 14:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Aug 23 13:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] District 268, fleets and the type T cruiser
Message-ID: <F111PxNEM8gdaoRkRCD00022dd1@hotmail.com>

From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>

     "I'd think that SDBs would be a local command issue.  If they aren't, 
might I humbly suggest that a better title would be ComSysGlis for 
Commander, System Defenses, Glisten Subsector?"


Mr. Berry,

     That works for me.  My goofy ComMonGlis (monitors) and ComSDBGlis 
(SDBs) could be folded into a ComSysGlis or ComSysDefGlis.  That office 
would be more of a IN technical and training liaison to local system 
defenses.
     A world raising it's own system defenses would apply for imperial funds 
and ComSysGlis would arrive to ensure training standards were met, iron out 
any comm snafus, and make sure local equipment was compatible with the IN 
stuff.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 14:24:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Danny Moody)
Date: Fri Aug 23 13:24:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1030132732.2749.ajackson@ping>
References: <B98BD361.6AC5B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <ML-2.3.1030132732.2749.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <52107.208.16.28.242.1030134147.squirrel@webmail.brick.net>

> Tod Glenn writes:
>
> Surprise would tend to be at a strategic level in Traveller, because
> jumping is blind, and ships which are landed can be concealed
> efficiently.  Unless there's unknowns in ship capabilities (which there
> probably would be), the outcome of most battles would be fairly obvious
> before the fight starts.

Which puts Traveller starship combat squarely in the same mold as naval
warfare in the age of sail.  Combat tended to be between fleets that
agreed to enter battle while tactics stagnated into a few standard
formations.  Battles tended to be inconclusive unless a smaller fleet was
forced into combat.  This would be even more difficult in Traveller.
(See Honor Harrington for another SF look at this type of warfare.)

Personally, I like this look and feel for Traveller naval battle.

-vargr1




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 14:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Aug 23 13:38:02 2002
Subject: Subject: Re: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
Message-ID: <F587AHfo98xKLVXfEFz0001a81b@hotmail.com>

From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>

     "Regardless of reality, IMTU ship's are hard to find when they are 
running "silent". Hulls are black, infrared emissions are damped, and unless 
"active" there will be no electromagnetic emissions."


Mr. Hurrel,

     That used to be my take too, but I've been wrestling with the issue of 
powerplants lately.  I'd love some sort of IR dampening, but can't find hide 
nor hair of it in canon (which DOESN'T mean it can't be done, MTU, YTU, it's 
all good!)
     How far can a powerplant be "throttled back"?  How fast can it be 
brought back up to military maximum?  If we can "dump the mains" then bring 
them back to 100% in minute(s), then tactical and/or operational surprise 
may be feasible.  Your fleet could jump in, at the canonical 3000km/parsec 
tolerance, on a pre-determined vector, and "coast" up on enemy 
installations.  You get within auto-spot range, bring the plants up, and 
start slugging.  Hopefully.
     My latest, and weakest, handwave has to do with spotting vessels as 
opposed to gaining weapon locks on them.  Using the Mayday-to-HG2 
band-to-hex conversions, you can spot the other fellow out past 15 hexes, 
but you can't get a weapons' lock on him until he gets closer.
     Pretty lame, I'll admit.  I've been toying with the idea of modifying 
it by computer size and allowing vessels to hand off weapon locks.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen




>Active scanners will obviously make it easier to detect enemy ships, but it
>will also light you up for all the world to see, and do so far beyond the
>range of said scanners. In other words, if you are active, you can be seen
>farther away than you can see.
>Maneuvering also serves as a nice advertisement, and the most obvious 
>tactic
>would be to jump into a system already on a desired vector to bring you
>close to your target.
>One thing I could see is an equivalent to the sonobouy. This is a remote
>active scanner that transmits data to a ship or command post. It gives away
>it's own position, but who cares? If one gets taken out, bring another
>online.
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml




"It was not until I had attended a few postmortems that I realized that even 
the ugliest human exterior may contain the most beautiful viscera, and able 
to console myself for the facial drabness of my neighbors in omnibuses by 
dissecting them in my imagination."

     J.B.S. Haldane


_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 14:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Aug 23 13:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: WIG, ACV, and Grav
In-Reply-To: <14d.12df6d7b.2a97eebb@aol.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1030135411.2767.ajackson@ping>

GypsyComet@aol.com writes:

> Hills?  Bah. They'll DO hills, but they won't do stop signs ON hills. With
> a  good hovercraft, you're hopping that hill, but you won't be stopping on
> it  anywhere (note that I'm not using the Californian definition of "hill",
> some  of which are 1000' high...)

Ah, but the Californian definition is right.... anyone who lives east of the
Rockies is confused about geology ;)  I have thousand foot hills within a
couple miles of me, and there's certainly a big difference between them and the
Sierra (hm...I'm just imagining a hovercraft on some of the roads in the SF bay
area).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 14:47:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Aug 23 13:47:06 2002
Subject: Subject: Re: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <F587AHfo98xKLVXfEFz0001a81b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1030135501.9084.ajackson@ping>

Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:

>      That used to be my take too, but I've been wrestling with the issue of
>  powerplants lately.  I'd love some sort of IR dampening, but can't find
> hide  nor hair of it in canon (which DOESN'T mean it can't be done, MTU,
> YTU, it's  all good!)

Sure there is.  It's called a black globe generator.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 14:50:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Aug 23 13:50:01 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <52107.208.16.28.242.1030134147.squirrel@webmail.brick.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1030135579.2060.ajackson@ping>

Danny Moody writes:
> 
> Which puts Traveller starship combat squarely in the same mold as naval
> warfare in the age of sail.

Which is pretty much what the designers wanted, AFAICT.  Certainly fleet combat
in High Guard doesn't involve a whole lot of tactics.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 15:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 23 14:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <20020823164704.29641.35219.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17iLc9-0006ot-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net>

"John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:

> There's a bit in Book 4 about the transition from tracked and 
> wheeled vehicles to grav vehicles, but...
> 
> What's the transition for civilians?
> 
> I'm still working on Vilis - it's low tech enough that I'm 
> wondering how the average civilian gets around.
> 
> And no Segway jokes, please...
> 
> Given the price of an air/raft, I'm not sure that many people 
> would have them - which means I'm going to have a lot of 
> highways. 

Actually, Digest Groups excellent mag Traveller's Digest has an 
excellent article in issue #20 called "Budget Grav Vehicles".

In MT it is perfectly possible to create grav vehicles that seat 4 
(cramped) and cost less than 20,000 Cr (16,150 Cr).  The key 
points are that such vehicles use fuels cells rather than fusion 
reactors, have radar and headlights as their only sensors and don't 
have onboard computers (you can either use electronic controls or 
use the optional rule form their 101 vehicles book that states that 
vehicles that need very few CP (control points) can get buy using 
just the electronics found in one or two linked control panels.  
Since each control panel has 1.5 CP, 2 provides all the CP you 
need for such a vehicle. Naturally, cheap vehicles also forgo 
artificial gravity and inertial compensation.

The most fun parts of the article were the 7,900 Cr grav cycle and 
the 152,000 Cr space craft .  I think the best way to think of the 
vehicles in the books is as military hardware (which is always 
vastly more expensive than civilian vehicles) or top end luxury craft. 
I'm guessing that b TL 11 pretty much everyone who isn't dirt poor 
will have at least some sort of grav vehicle (and remember that the 
prices listed above are for new vehicles, likely you could knock off 
at least 30% of the price for ones that are 5 or more years old).

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 15:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug 23 14:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <52107.208.16.28.242.1030134147.squirrel@webmail.brick.net>
Message-ID: <B98BF5E9.6AC7B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/23/02 1:22 PM, Danny Moody at vargr1@brick.net wrote:

>=20
> Which puts Traveller starship combat squarely in the same mold as naval
> warfare in the age of sail.

Except that Traveller weaponry can fire at the range where the target is
visible, and almost never misses.  Not to mention the fact that a single hi=
t
with main weaponry can very likely destroy the target.

It's more like the age of sail, with modern weaponry.  Given the range of
energy weapons, by the time you have detected the enemy, you are already
committed to battle, and there's no running away except by jumping out of
system.

> Combat tended to be between fleets that
> agreed to enter battle while tactics stagnated into a few standard
> formations. =20

There are many other factors that come into play in an 18th century naval
engagement that aren't relevant to Traveller, as anyone who has played
"Wooden Ships and Iron Men" can plainly see.  There is no wind and tide, an=
d
boarding actions against a ship are practically impossible unless that ship
has been reduced to practically a hulk.  There are no bold maneuvers that
can change the course of battle and carry the day.

It strikes me that given the opinions posted here, it really is more like
modern surface ship combat, only with the deadliness of submarine combat.
Once ships are in detection range, they are in combat range and everything
will probably be handled by computer, because humans are just not precise o=
r
fast enough.  Crews will spend all their time in combat trying to repair
damage faster than they take it.  The ships themselves will be maneuvering
wildly, trying to avoid fire while launching missiles and firing energy
weapons and all of this will probably be under the control of battle
computers.  At most, the captain might decide how to direct his weapons if
there are multiple targets.

> Battles tended to be inconclusive unless a smaller fleet was
> forced into combat.  This would be even more difficult in Traveller.
> (See Honor Harrington for another SF look at this type of warfare.)

On the contrary.  It seems like being in sensor range is being in weapons
range, given energy weapons and the characteristics of space.  Once you are
in system and detectable, you can come under fire.

At least in the age of sail, you could use maneuver to gain an advantage.
Traveller warships don't have to worry about being able to give a broadside=
,
or being raked.  They don't have to close to point blank range to maximized
their weapon's effectiveness.  In fact, it seems like the crew and captain
will have very little impact on the battle.  It will all come down to who
has the better ship.  Who has the most firepower, armor and acceleration.
Who has the better computer.  Basically, all things being equal (including
TL), the one who spends more on their ship will prevail, although if the
battle drags on for a bit, the ship with the 'better repairmen' might have
some advantage.

Space combat becomes a kind of deadly calculus.  Excepting pure luck, the
results are known before the first round is even fired.  Where's the glory
in that?  To paraphrase Patton "Nothing is sanctified, nothing is
reaffirmed.  There is no change to win honor or glory.  There are only thos=
e
who are left alive, and those left dead."  Victory is decided at the
shipyard.

Someone mentioned something about how Traveller 2300 compared ship combat
with "playing hide and seek with bazookas".  But there's evidently no
hiding.  It's more like "High Noon" with Bazookas.

Please correct me if I missed something.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 15:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Fri Aug 23 14:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: deckplans classic scoutship
Message-ID: <F237qlbH0QhHr7kRWPu00012fc5@hotmail.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
>Also here are some deckplans for the classic scout ship at
>
>http://members.aol.com/exog/myhomepage/scout.html

Interesting idea, maintaining the same (or at least
roughly similar) design through a range of tech levels.
Perhaps this would be a design promulgated by a central
office (such as the IISS Ship Design Bureau) with the
intent that it will be made at local tech levels.

No ship's vehicles as standard, but the cargo bay
could serve as a garage at need.

I understand that you're making computers negligible
in power and space in your variant, but are you also
varying the rules for bridge spaces?  A 100dtn craft
should have a 20dtn bridge, your looks to have about 3.
The usual Traveller starship design uses a good portion
of the "bridge spaces" as avionics and such - are you
considering the life support, airlock and "g"(?) space
as part of this ship's bridge?

By the way, in your Traveller universe, can a 10dtn
TL-15 fightercraft sport a Model/9 computer?  Finding
the energy and space for the best computer is one of
the factors that make small craft lose their prominence
as TL goes up, your variant (making computers have no
displacement or power needs) would reverse that a bit.

I've used the common interpretation that the space and
power requirements of Traveller starship computers
represent a combination of reliability assurance
and sensors/scanners.  Yeah, that Model/9fib might
only take up a small closet itself, but the UPS,
power conditioners, and especially the expansions to
the ship's sensor arrays make up the rest...or maybe
the ship's computer guy just has a really big office. :-)

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 15:33:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug 23 14:33:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1030132732.2749.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B98BF76B.6AC7C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/23/02 12:58 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@iii.com wrote:

> Tod Glenn writes:
>=20
>> Forgive me for being stupid, I'm no astronomer.  But don't you have to k=
now
>> where to look before you can track.
>=20
> Yes, you do; certainly, you're not going to routinely spot magnitude 25
> objects
> on a whole sky scan.  However, scanning the entire sky nightly at 15th
> magnitude is not a huge project with modern technology (cheap relative to=
 a
> single starship) and could reasonably be expected to get cheaper, plus it
> becomes easier if the sensor is in space anyway.  How much you can exceed=
 this
> limit depends primarily on electronics, which is pretty much exploding at=
 the
> moment, so 20th magnitude in an hour by 2010 or 2015 doesn't seem all tha=
t
> unlikely.
>=20

Just as a question: What about the use of decoys?  Supposed after I enter
system, I unpack a few dozen big mylar balloons (or something equivalent),
with the size and shape of my ships.  I've fitted these with small maneuver
drives that give them the same acceleration as 'real' vessels (these drive
can be pretty small, since I'm not pushing much mass).  How does the
defender deal with this.  (I'm assuming these decoys have the same magnitud=
e
as real vessels, and reflect radar in a manner identical to real vessels).

For that matter, What if I add essentially massless features to my
destroyers to make them look like battleships?  Is there a place for
deception, and will it be easily countered?

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 15:36:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug 23 14:36:24 2002
Subject: Subject: Re: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <F587AHfo98xKLVXfEFz0001a81b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B98BF863.6AC7E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/23/02 1:37 PM, Larsen E. Whipsnade at grote1731@hotmail.com wrote:
> Mr. Hurrel,
>=20
> That used to be my take too, but I've been wrestling with the issue of
> powerplants lately.  I'd love some sort of IR dampening, but can't find h=
ide
> nor hair of it in canon (which DOESN'T mean it can't be done, MTU, YTU, i=
t's
> all good!)
> How far can a powerplant be "throttled back"?  How fast can it be
> brought back up to military maximum?  If we can "dump the mains" then bri=
ng
> them back to 100% in minute(s), then tactical and/or operational surprise
> may be feasible.  Your fleet could jump in, at the canonical 3000km/parse=
c
> tolerance, on a pre-determined vector, and "coast" up on enemy
> installations.  You get within auto-spot range, bring the plants up, and
> start slugging. =20

It seems that others on the list have shot that idea down.

> Hopefully.
> My latest, and weakest, handwave has to do with spotting vessels as
> opposed to gaining weapon locks on them.  Using the Mayday-to-HG2
> band-to-hex conversions, you can spot the other fellow out past 15 hexes,
> but you can't get a weapons' lock on him until he gets closer.
> Pretty lame, I'll admit.  I've been toying with the idea of modifying
> it by computer size and allowing vessels to hand off weapon locks.

Given energy weapons, why would you decouple your sensors from your fire
control?  As soon as you have detection, you have weapons lock.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 15:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug 23 14:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: WIG, ACV, and Grav
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1030135411.2767.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B98BF8F4.6AC7F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/23/02 1:43 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@iii.com wrote:

> GypsyComet@aol.com writes:
>=20
>> Hills?  Bah. They'll DO hills, but they won't do stop signs ON hills. Wi=
th
>> a  good hovercraft, you're hopping that hill, but you won't be stopping =
on
>> it  anywhere (note that I'm not using the Californian definition of "hil=
l",
>> some  of which are 1000' high...)
>=20
> Ah, but the Californian definition is right.... anyone who lives east of =
the
> Rockies is confused about geology ;)  I have thousand foot hills within a
> couple miles of me, and there's certainly a big difference between them a=
nd
> the
> Sierra (hm...I'm just imagining a hovercraft on some of the roads in the =
SF
> bay
> area).

I am suddenly reminded of a program on PBS I watched where they were
exploring the Amazon by hovercraft.  At one point, they were travelling by
road, but had a continuing problem of the hovercraft sliding off to the
shoulder, because the road was slanted for water drainage (a common practic=
e
with macadam roads).
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 15:43:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Fri Aug 23 14:43:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <200208231502.NKB04186@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020823173254.00cc2bd0@192.168.0.1>

At 11:02 AM 8/23/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>There's a bit in Book 4 about the transition from tracked and
>wheeled vehicles to grav vehicles, but...
>
>What's the transition for civilians?
>
>I'm still working on Vilis - it's low tech enough that I'm
>wondering how the average civilian gets around.

On Garda-Vilis, I'm making ownership of grav vehicles restricted to those 
with government licenses.
The exceptions would be the grav vehicles owned by the Starport Authority 
and the IISS base.
Those are registered with the government also.

Most travel between cities is by commercial grav transport or rail.

Out in the boonies, most grav vehicles are owned by the government or the 
large ranches (with the political connections).




---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 15:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug 23 14:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <E17iLc9-0006ot-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <B98BFA69.6AC84%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/23/02 2:03 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:

> In MT it is perfectly possible to create grav vehicles that seat 4
> (cramped) and cost less than 20,000 Cr (16,150 Cr).  The key
> points are that such vehicles use fuels cells rather than fusion
> reactors, have radar and headlights as their only sensors and don't
> have onboard computers (you can either use electronic controls or
> use the optional rule form their 101 vehicles book that states that
> vehicles that need very few CP (control points) can get buy using
> just the electronics found in one or two linked control panels.
> Since each control panel has 1.5 CP, 2 provides all the CP you
> need for such a vehicle. Naturally, cheap vehicles also forgo
> artificial gravity and inertial compensation.

No so cheap.  At Cr20,000 that's out of the price range of the average
citizen.  That would be almost $60,000 in adjusted dollars.  I certainly
don't own a $60,000 car, and bet most people on the list don't either.
>=20
> The most fun parts of the article were the 7,900 Cr grav cycle and
> the 152,000 Cr space craft .  I think the best way to think of the
> vehicles in the books is as military hardware (which is always
> vastly more expensive than civilian vehicles) or top end luxury craft.
> I'm guessing that b TL 11 pretty much everyone who isn't dirt poor
> will have at least some sort of grav vehicle (and remember that the
> prices listed above are for new vehicles, likely you could knock off
> at least 30% of the price for ones that are 5 or more years old).

Looking at Traveller income, you have to make the grav car available at
something like Cr7,000 before it could be within the reach of the average
citizen.  That's new, so those lower middle income types could afford to by
the 5 year old model.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 15:50:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Fri Aug 23 14:50:55 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
Message-ID: <F233ZTSf1FqUa5RnMY500023a8e@hotmail.com>

Tod Glenn wrote:
>With passive sensors, you'll only have to deal with the lag in one
>direction. With active sensors, that lag gets doubled.

Actually it don't. The time to the target is not interesting since the 
positional data the radar signal carries is "recorded" when the signal is 
reflected.


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 15:54:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Fri Aug 23 14:54:04 2002
Subject: [TML] re: deckplans classic scoutship
Message-ID: <F266wATxHUTOS8vu6N500021b0f@hotmail.com>

>"Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com>
>A 100dtn craft
>should have a 20dtn bridge, your looks to have about 3.

This varies very much on the rule set used. In T4 and TNE a small ships 
(crew less than ~11) only need 0.5 dt bridge space per crew.


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 15:56:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Aug 23 14:56:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <B98BF76B.6AC7C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1030139447.2225.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:

> Just as a question: What about the use of decoys?

With real reaction drives, it doesn't work.  With Traveller drives, it may be
possible, though it would be difficult to make a really convincing decoy,
particularly against active sensors (active sensors aren't great for initial
contact in space, but they should work just fine for scanning already detected
objects).  Even without that, ships can probably create order of magnitude
uncertainties in their size.

You can also hide by simply not doing anything interesting; a ship that's
powered down and floating in an asteroid belt in a solar orbit could be missed
for a fairly long time, though it probably won't be very useful there.  This is
much easier for the defender than the attacker, since the defender is
presumably aware of most space debris in his system, and the attacker is not.

Finally, you can hide near objects; a ship hiding on the dark side of an
asteroid is not particularly visible.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 16:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Aug 23 15:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <B98BF5E9.6AC7B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1030141007.7543.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
> 
> Except that Traveller weaponry can fire at the range where the target is
> visible, and almost never misses.

Actually, aside from exceptional circumstances of stealth, the target is
usually visible far beyond firing range.

>  Not to mention the fact that a single
> hit with main weaponry can very likely destroy the target.

Yeah, meson guns messed up the model.  Without meson guns, High Guard conflict
resembles age of sail just fine.

> At least in the age of sail, you could use maneuver to gain an advantage.
> Traveller warships don't have to worry about being able to give a
> broadside, or being raked.

Well, you do have to worry a bit about getting close to objects that could hide
hostile forces (or ground batteries).

> Space combat becomes a kind of deadly calculus.  Excepting pure luck, the
> results are known before the first round is even fired.  Where's the glory
> in that?

Yeah, that's a problem for space combat.  I figure that for some unknown reason
(which is probably psychic, deny it as the Imperials will), a human gunner or
pilot can outperform a computer at certain tasks.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 16:20:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Fri Aug 23 15:20:10 2002
Subject: Subject: Re: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
Message-ID: <F169zdDW6lCPx33E1io0002387d@hotmail.com>

>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>     That used to be my take too, but I've been wrestling with the issue of 
>powerplants lately.  I'd love some sort of IR dampening, but can't find 
>hide nor hair of it in canon (which DOESN'T mean it can't be done, MTU, 
>YTU, it's all good!)

There is several methods used. TNE has ElectroMagnetic Masking (EMM) and 
Stealth while T4 has 3 levels of IR masking, Stealth and hull coats. Then 
there is the Black Globes.

>How far can a powerplant be "throttled back"?

I would say that it would at least be able to throttle back to a level 
equivilant to a powerplant of the smallest size allowed and probably even 
more.

>How fast can it be brought back up to military maximum?  If we can "dump 
>the mains" then bring them back to 100% in minute(s), then tactical and/or 
>operational surprise may be feasible.  Your fleet could jump in, at the 
>canonical 3000km/parsec tolerance, on a pre-determined vector, and "coast" 
>up on enemy installations.  You get within auto-spot range, bring the 
>plants up, and start slugging.  Hopefully.

If we are talking a few minutes then it could be possible to power the 
drives of the ship using batteries/cold fusion/etc while the main powerplant 
is warming up. If not is becomes a rather dangerous tactic. I'm not so sure 
it would give much tactical advantage compared to the system level strategic 
advantage though.

>     My latest, and weakest, handwave has to do with spotting vessels as 
>opposed to gaining weapon locks on them.  Using the Mayday-to-HG2 
>band-to-hex conversions, you can spot the other fellow out past 15 hexes, 
>but you can't get a weapons' lock on him until he gets closer.
>     Pretty lame, I'll admit.  I've been toying with the idea of modifying 
>it by computer size and allowing vessels to hand off weapon locks.

Pretty spot on IMO (except perhaps the ranges). IIRC, using Bruce 
MacIntosh's Definate Sensor Rules you will (on average, using the same 
sensor for both tasks) get a fire control lock at a range that is 1/32th of 
the range required for initial detection (aka there is something out there 
and its moving). This assumes the target doesn't change behaviour (increases 
power or starts shoting back) and that no dedicated FC sensor is used.

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 16:24:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Aug 23 15:24:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <B98BFA69.6AC84%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1030141309.5089.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
> 
> No so cheap.  At Cr20,000 that's out of the price range of the average
> citizen.  That would be almost $60,000 in adjusted dollars.  I certainly
> don't own a $60,000 car, and bet most people on the list don't either.

Well, it's more important to compare with average income, which is of course a
bit harder to estimate.  The per capita GNI of the US is currently about
$30,000, so if Cr 30,000 per year is a reasonable estimate of Imperial income,
that vehicle would be comparable to a new midrange car in the US.  The average
Imperial income seems quite a bit lower than that, though.

In GT, a practical low-end grav car (4 seats, 40 cf cargo, less than a ton
because it has a lot less engine than a modern car) is a bit over $10k in TL 10
credits, with a range of around 700 miles on rechargeable batteries.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 16:26:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 23 15:26:56 2002
Subject: [TML] A question concerning TML-chat and topics
Message-ID: <61.24bb90c1.2a980f80@aol.com>

 >    Irritation be damned...am I risking being cast out because  I have 
 >opinions that may be unpopular?

If they didn't throw me out, I don't think they're going to throw you out.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 16:30:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Fri Aug 23 15:30:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Enigma intercepts and en/decryption
In-Reply-To: <3D668205.5080903@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEOEEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

>Now...in the 3I, I wonder if important orders are simply never
>broadcast, but delivered by hand. This would account for the vast fleets
>of scout/couriers about. Tactical orders in a battle would be broadcast,
>but likely only on tight beam commos, and would involve serious
>encryption. I rather doubt the race between the code makers and code
>breakers will have slowed down or even changed all that appreciably.
>
In a universe where no message will travel between stars faster than the
fastest ship, it is likely that a message that has taken two weeks to travel
the 12 parsecs will wait the day it takes to get from the 100D point to the
planet. IT might still be encoded, with some kind of bio-ID lock to ensure
that it does not go astray.



Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 16:34:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Fri Aug 23 15:34:06 2002
Subject: [TML] GEVs, WIGs, and airships on low tech worlds...
In-Reply-To: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPMELMEGAA.max200@lanset.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEOEEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

I suspect a lot of this is due to technological inertia.

For example in quantity I believe that the gas turbine engine, running on
hydrogen would be just as cheap to produce as the internal combustion
engine. However there is no benefit to automobile companies to build such
engines as long as people will buy gas engines. Even though such engines
have more moving parts and require more maintenance. There is a distinct
disadvantage to gas stations , oil companies, auto parts stores, auto repair
shops, etc.

No conspiracy here, just individuals doing what's best for themselves.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Maksim-Smelchak
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2002 2:01 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] GEVs, WIGs, and airships on low tech worlds...

>>> It's interesting to note that GEVs like hovercraft have had very little
impact on general
>>>transportation.  They are useful in certain limited niches, but not for
much else. >>>

There's no argument that GEVs (hovercraft) have more moving parts (and
therefore more complication) than their wheeled equivalents, but at our tech
level, they can definitely be made as cheaply or more cheaply than what we
currently have. I personally don't understand (inviting explanations) why we
don't have more hovercraft. The local university engineering departments
regularly build them for just a few hundred dollars USD (probably as a
lark). Ever tried pricing golf carts? Maybe golf carts are a bad example
since they are provided for a niche market, but still I can't imagine that a
TL-8 world couldn't provide GEVs that could compete in the civilian market.

For that matter, airships and WIGs (PARWIGs or wing in ground effect
aircraft) could much more cheaply transport goods than current conventional
air carriers. Maybe it's the ghost of the Hindenburg still floating about...
The Russians have certainly built some WIGs that were mighty impressive. The
good thing is that this technology is starting to filter down into civvie
markets. Several Euro and Russo-Euro compnaies are building or planning to
build WIG aircraft.

Cheers,
Maksim-Smelchak.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Tod Glenn
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2002 10:22 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Non-prevalence of grav vehicles on lower tech worlds...
on 8/23/02 9:38 AM, Maksim-Smelchak wrote:
> I personally see a minimum tech level for grav vehicles to become
prevalent.
> I see cheap wheeled vehicles and GEVs (hovercraft) being much more the
main
> stay of many worlds especially periphery ones. Terrain would, of course,
> dictate what sort of vehicles would work best.
> Cheers,
> Maksim-Smelchak.


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 16:37:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 23 15:37:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
Message-ID: <004f01c24af4$6f905200$a7020140@k62500>

Hello Brian Hurrel,=20

As has been mentioned in previous posts submarine vs. submarine has
some similarities to starship combat. Of course, there is a world of
difference between looking for a contact/target scanning for sound and
electronic emissions or using systems to pick up magnitude 25 objects
as suggested by Anthony Jackson. As a retired submarine rider and
sonar technician/operator passive systems work great on merchants
and poorly maintained military vessels. However, the more modern
warship designs are slowly, comparatively to subs anyway, learning
how to hide or alter their sound signatures. These changes make
detection that much harder. Another, disadvantage to passive, sonar
anyway, systems is while you can determine bearing between you and
the contact/target you cannot determine range. Unfortunately, "running
silent" does not mean every noise producing item is shutdown. A
majority of equipment is shutdown, however there are the systems that
remain operating to keep sensors (a.k.a. sonar), major control =
systems(reactor, major fans for ventilation), and other key systems, my
memory fails me here for names of more items that were covered
under the "Silent Running" Bill. There will be some very small
electromagnetic emissions that if the opposing operator is very sharp
may recognize as a ship emission. Jonesy, in "Hunt for Red October" is
an example of a sharp operator who figured out the sound of the Red
October's silent drive was.

Yes, sonobouys can be of use to detect enemy contacts, surface or
submerged, if enough can be seeded in the right area. I am running out
of steam here so I guess I will stop typing for now.


Tom Rux



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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 16:40:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug 23 15:40:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1030141007.7543.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B98C0538.6AC91%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/23/02 3:16 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@iii.com wrote:

> Tod Glenn writes:
>>=20
>> Except that Traveller weaponry can fire at the range where the target is
>> visible, and almost never misses.
>=20
> Actually, aside from exceptional circumstances of stealth, the target is
> usually visible far beyond firing range.
>=20

Could you go into this in more detail?  What is the limiting factor for
energy weapon range in vacuum?  Aside from the time lag and the targets
ability to maneuver.  Certainly, there's beam divergence, and some energy
lost by being absorbed by interstellar dust and hydrgogen (or am I barking
up the wrong tree here).  What else limits range?
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 16:45:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug 23 15:45:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1030141309.5089.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B98C07A0.6AC94%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/23/02 3:21 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@iii.com wrote:

> Tod Glenn writes:
>>=20
>> No so cheap.  At Cr20,000 that's out of the price range of the average
>> citizen.  That would be almost $60,000 in adjusted dollars.  I certainly
>> don't own a $60,000 car, and bet most people on the list don't either.
>=20
> Well, it's more important to compare with average income, which is of cou=
rse a
> bit harder to estimate.  The per capita GNI of the US is currently about
> $30,000, so if Cr 30,000 per year is a reasonable estimate of Imperial in=
come,
> that vehicle would be comparable to a new midrange car in the US.  The av=
erage
> Imperial income seems quite a bit lower than that, though.

According to my calculations, based on the CT Credit being linked to the
value of the 1977 US dollar, the current US dollar is valued at Cr0.34
Imperial.  Or, in other words, a Cr10,000 vehicle would cost $29,200.  If w=
e
apply the same conversion, and assume that the average imperial income is o=
n
par with the average US income in terms of buying power (which seems
reasonable, considering the authors) then we end up with an average Imperia=
l
income of about Cr10,000 per year.

So our mythical grav car represents about two years income for the average
Imperial citizen.  Naturally, if you are working from other versions of
Traveller, you'll get a different figure, but it seems quite obvious from
the prices listed in CT, that the CT credit is not on par with the current
US dollar (Boy, wouldn't I like to be able to by a new autopistol for $200)
>=20
> In GT, a practical low-end grav car (4 seats, 40 cf cargo, less than a to=
n
> because it has a lot less engine than a modern car) is a bit over $10k in=
 TL
> 10
> credits, with a range of around 700 miles on rechargeable batteries.

I can't speak to GT and how it's economic units compare to US dollars, but =
I
suspect it's quite different than that of CT.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 16:48:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Fri Aug 23 15:48:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Non-prevalence of grav vehicles on lower tech worlds...
In-Reply-To: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPAELJEGAA.max200@lanset.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEOFEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

I've always thought that the statement (in GURPS at least) that at high tech
levels ground vehicles become totally obsolete as unlikely. In a densely
populated urban area, especially one with multi level surface areas it is
much more likely that some form of public transportation will be used. The
ubiquitous "mag-lev" train is popular in scifi. I suppose goods as well as
people can travel in this way, but how do you get goods to the individual
store or apartment? Tube system in the ground or road above something has to
travel there and it most likely won't fly.

Now travel outside the urban areas might be by air, simply because that
means you don't have to build roads.

Now in an old JTAS they had an ATV (wheeled) that used contrgrav to reduce
the vehicle's weight, so that it could travel over ground on which a normal
ATV would sink.  I suppose that you could do the same thing with
reactionless thrusters. Use the thrusters to keep a vehicle that was just
slightly positively gravitied above the ground. A kind of floater. If the
balancing act was done by a computer then the vehicle should be no more
difficult to drive than a auto. This might make it better for civilians than
an air/raft or aircar, which might still require almost as much skill as an
aircraft to fly.  A floater might require only minimum roads and might still
be computer controlled in congested urban areas.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Maksim-Smelchak
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2002 12:38 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Non-prevalence of grav vehicles on lower tech worlds...

I personally see a minimum tech level for grav vehicles to become prevalent.
I see cheap wheeled vehicles and GEVs (hovercraft) being much more the main
stay of many worlds especially periphery ones. Terrain would, of course,
dictate what sort of vehicles would work best.

Cheers,
Maksim-Smelchak.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Megan Robertson
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2002 8:33 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Cc: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk
Subject: Re: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
>>> Only military or explorer types who drove "off road" would have a
driving skill.
>>> Any thoughts on this? >>>

If you envisage a kind of 'grav-hover' vehicle, that normally travels at
about knee-height but on gravitics rather than wheels, you might decide that
they run best over a flat surface, and so you still need 'roads' of smooth
material (well-laid hardtop will do fine, or concrete). On rougher
surfaces, speed and stability are affected, but it is possible to
'off-road' - anyone wishing to do so will need some skill at handling his
vehicle. People only remaining on the roads do not need much skill, and - if
as you say, automatic controls are available - perhaps none at all.

The automatic controls could be either 'navigation' systems that carry a map
of the area, and you tell the system where you are & where you want to go,
and it follows its internal map; or it could be a 'follow the trail' system
where it senses information and signals embedded in the road.

Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.


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TML@travellercentral.com
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 16:52:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Ayers)
Date: Fri Aug 23 15:52:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Ship vs. Ship and the Rules
Message-ID: <001301c24af7$1125c260$2f7de40c@loki>

It is a, perhaps unique, aspect of our local Traveller universe that we
have never fully used the rules for ship vs. ship combat. Early on, in
discussion, we developed a common view of space combat. Once we'd put
that together with our--fewest dice rolls possible gamming style--we had
a system the remarkably resembles those some of you have described here.
Sensors reach farther than weapons in most cases so we can watch for
quite some time a bogie coming in.

But then we rarely have gotten into full scale naval conflict. That
tends to be created and completed outside the session as part of the
continuing saga.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 16:56:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Fri Aug 23 15:56:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEOACEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEOGEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>Given the price of an air/raft, I'm not sure that many people would have
>them - which means I'm going to >have a lot of highways.
>
>Try building civilian vehicles with Striker rules; see the early JTAS
>article on that subject.  They're pretty affordable.  I don't know where
the
>CT price of Cr600,000 comes from -- it must be a solid gold (not gold
>plated) air/raft.  (101 Vehicles focusses on high-end civilian grav
>vehicles, and does not contribute much to this discussion -- they are
>talking about Lear Jets rather than than Toyota Corollas.)
>
I've always seen the air/raft as equivalent to a Land Rover or Hummer, more
expensive because it's made to be used rough and hung up wet. It probably
has many systems not installed on a standard civilian aircar which is meant
to be operated on a traffic control system.

I've got a detailed air/raft design I've been working on for JTAS. Basically
it's the standard air/raft when new, before it's gotten hold of third hand
by a PC group on a twelve-year-old free trader. It includes lots of things
that have always been lost be the time the PC's see it. Like a full toolkit,
the spare parts box, which includes fuses and replacement lights the
installed winch, etc. Think new Hummer compared to twelve year old surplus
Humvee.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 17:00:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Fri Aug 23 16:00:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Enigma intercepts and en/decryption
Message-ID: <memo.92803@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <3D668205.5080903@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
> Just a minor correction. At NO time during the war were Enigma 
> intercepts anything like 'real time'.

Correct.

As well as the "We won't release material unless we can demonstrate an 
alternate plausible way in which we could have contained it" aspect, there 
is also the fact that a lot of the material needed specialist analysis 
before it was of any use...

As it happens, my father was in the Intelligence Corps, and served in an 
Anglo-American Int cell 1944-6. They followed the invasion of Italy, about 
one day behind the front. Part of their work involved trying to make sense 
of some of the Enigma decrypts sent to the Axis troops in that area. A lot 
of the time, a message would be something like, "Transfer Colonel Gruber 
to such-and-such a location" - and it was only if you happened to know 
that Colonel Gruber was an expert in artillery that you could then 
determine that maybe there was a build-up of artillery in such-and-such a 
location, and so direct troops in the field to act accordingly.

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.
(and we won't say anything about the original decrypt message I have 
tucked away, now will we?)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 17:03:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Aug 23 16:03:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <B98C0538.6AC91%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1030143332.1183.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
>=20
> Could you go into this in more detail?  What is the limiting factor for
> energy weapon range in vacuum?  Aside from the time lag and the targets
> ability to maneuver.  Certainly, there's beam divergence, and some energy
> lost by being absorbed by interstellar dust and hydrgogen (or am I barkin=
g
> up the wrong tree here).  What else limits range?

Mostly, it's beam divergence, though evasion makes hitting extremely unlike=
ly
beyond a few light-seconds if ships have a bit of random motion, which wars=
hips
would tend to do for exactly this reason.

Using realistic lasers, focusing enough to penetrate armor is unlikely beyo=
nd
5-10 thousand kilometers.  None of the Traveller design systems uses
particularly realistic lasers, however; grav-focus X-ray lasers and spinal
particle beams both logically allow planetary bombardment at multiple AU ra=
nges
with FF&S2, though that's rather non-canonical.
> --
> Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
> --=20
> Tod L Glenn
> webmaster@travellercentral.com
> http://www.travellercentral.com
> http://www.spinwardmarches.com
> http://www.solsec.org
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>=20
>=20


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 17:07:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Fri Aug 23 16:07:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <B98BFA69.6AC84%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEOHEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

>> In MT it is perfectly possible to create grav vehicles that seat 4
>> (cramped) and cost less than 20,000 Cr (16,150 Cr).  The key
>> points are that such vehicles use fuels cells rather than fusion
>> reactors, have radar and headlights as their only sensors and don't
>> have onboard computers (you can either use electronic controls or
>> use the optional rule form their 101 vehicles book that states that
>> vehicles that need very few CP (control points) can get buy using
>> just the electronics found in one or two linked control panels.
>> Since each control panel has 1.5 CP, 2 provides all the CP you
>> need for such a vehicle. Naturally, cheap vehicles also forgo
>> artificial gravity and inertial compensation.
>
>No so cheap.  At Cr20,000 that's out of the price range of the average
>citizen.  That would be almost $60,000 in adjusted dollars.  I certainly
>don't own a $60,000 car, and bet most people on the list don't either.
>>

Maybe not, but you don't have to look far to find many people who do. In a
major metro area like New York, Chicago, Washington or LA in some parts of
the city the $60,000 cars outnumber the $20,000 cars. Besides there's always
leasing, or rental. Perhaps the government owns all the grav vehicles and
citizens merely barrow them to use when needed.


>> The most fun parts of the article were the 7,900 Cr grav cycle and
>> the 152,000 Cr space craft .  I think the best way to think of the
>> vehicles in the books is as military hardware (which is always
>> vastly more expensive than civilian vehicles) or top end luxury craft.
>> I'm guessing that b TL 11 pretty much everyone who isn't dirt poor
>> will have at least some sort of grav vehicle (and remember that the
>> prices listed above are for new vehicles, likely you could knock off
>> at least 30% of the price for ones that are 5 or more years old).
>
>Looking at Traveller income, you have to make the grav car available at
>something like Cr7,000 before it could be within the reach of the average
>citizen.  That's new, so those lower middle income types could afford to by
>the 5 year old model.
>
>--
The income of the average citizen is highly variable. Besides on a world
with 30 billion people if only the top 6 billion citizens can afford a
Cr20,000 grav vehicle that's still a lot of grav vehicles.


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 17:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Fri Aug 23 16:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economics
In-Reply-To: <3D630F71.9020204@usisp.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEOIEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>Do people in the in the late Imperium do business significantly
differently
>>than in Year 0? I don't know. Do we do business significantly differently
in
>>2002 A.D. than we did in 1002 A.D.? Are the Politics different? Again I
>>don't know canon simply does not have enough information.
>>
>    When you buy something, you receive goods in exchange for money.
>When you sell
>something, you receive money in exchange for goods. Money is anything
>that has worth,
>whether it is gov backed paper, gold, llammas, or wampum. How can
>business be conducted
>in any other way? Anything else is just a method of doing the above.

Still the credit card and banking system have had an effect on the way
business is done. The very existence of credit has a major effect on how
business is done. My parents never bought anything on credit (except a
house.) Like many who lived through the depression they only bought what
they could pay for. Besides in the 1950's only the rich could get a credit
card or unsecured loan.

Saying that its all the same doesn't make it the same. Banking, Insurance,
the stock market. All of these affect the way business is done. None of
these concepts existed in 1002. A peasant couldn't eat venison in that year,
it was reserved for the nobles. In some countries in 1002 a nobleman didn't
have to pay taxes, in 2002, in the same country they do. This affects the
economy and the way in which business is done.


>    Politics is very much the same except that words and promises are
>exchanged. Politicians
>promise to do stuff if voters promise to vote for them. 'I promise to
>not bomb you if you
>promise to not invade. I promised the voters that I would say that
>because they kept their
>promise and voted me in office.'
>    Politics is a different form of economics. hmmm I wonder if the same
>rules can be applied
>to each.
>    In any case..it is the same as it ever was or ever will be.
>

This presupposes a democratically elected government, where the populous has
some amount of power. It does not apply when absolute power is held from
God, or the from the big honking gun that I have and you don't.

>>During the long night and just there after it makes sense that isolated
>>undiscovered worlds might have regressed and have TL's far below Imperial
>>norms. Trade might be far below or far above what could be expected later.
>>
>    Gee...just as 'hard times' predicts for the stoppage of trade....
>
But if trade is a few percent of a worlds GPA then its elimination will not
cause the problems that Hard Times predicts. This will only happen if trade
is a much larger percentage of a worlds GPA, in which case most worlds will
be at the same TL.

>>I primarily deal with CT and GT. I'm not interested in a post-virus
>>anything. The only two sources of economic models for the CT/GT twelfth
>>century Imperium are given in Merchant Prince and GT:Far Trader. These
place
>>trade levels at an unreasonably low level.  To use the economic model of a
>>T4 product generally invalidates several other GT books (Starports, Ground
>>Forces, First In, etc.) which use these same numbers.
>>
>    Merchant Prince were designed to generate cargoes for pc
>specualtion, not for
>simulating macroeconomics. Though I don't use gurps, I feel that if
>gt:far trader based
>its macroeconomic simulation on 'merchant prince' then it is surely flawed.
>
>>The authors of Far Trader also believe it was based on sound economic
>>models. The numbers are, as I understand it, cook to give the results they
>>give because these were the levels of trade they were told to shoot for.
The
>>reason, higher trade would have caused TL leveling. If a TL 5 world
imports
>>50% of its goods from a TL10 neighbor then it will soon be
indistinguishable
>>from the TL10 world.
>>
>    Only until the low tech world runs out of money to purchase high
>tech goods.
>Despite our ability to trade with the entire world, Africa and many
>other parts of the earth
>are still low tech because they can't afford high tech stuff. If they
>can't pay for it, Then
>they will just have to make it themselves......oops, they don't have
>high tech infrastructure.

Exactly. Since they have no money to purchase the goods to start with, there
is a very low volume of trade. High TL worlds will not trade very much with
low TL worlds. Trade percentage will be low and the worlds will stay at
different TL's. When Hard Times come the high TL world will stay at high TL
and the low TL world will stay at low TL and no regression of TL will occur.
Which makes my case.

>    I still stand by my interpretation of tech levels and of econonomics.
>



Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 17:35:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug 23 16:35:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Non-prevalence of grav vehicles on lower tech worlds...
In-Reply-To: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPAELJEGAA.max200@lanset.com>
References: <memo.83772@cix.compulink.co.uk> <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPAELJEGAA.max200@lanset.com>
Message-ID: <20020824093252.A22769@freeman.little-possums.net>

Maksim-Smelchak wrote:
> I personally see a minimum tech level for grav vehicles to become
> prevalent.

The interesting things is that under GURPS Vehicles rules,
contragravity vehicles are very often cheaper than wheeled ones even
after the TL currency conversion to CrImps.

For example, a TL7 medium truck wheeled drivetrain would cost about
2000 CrImp.  A 50-tonne TL9 contragrav system is overkill, but would
cost only about 625 CrImp.  A propeller system of equivalent power to
the wheeled drivetrain costs 320 CrImp, for a total motive system cost
of less than half the wheeled vehicle cost.

Unlike the wheeled vehicle, the contragrav vehicle can be used over
any terrain, and unlike an airplane can handle abyssmal weather with
ease.  It also performs significantly better than the wheeled truck in
addition to being cheaper.  The main disadvantage is that the
contragrav unit is more difficult to maintain locally on low-tech
worlds.

The cost advantage of contragrav diminishes with smaller vehicles.  A
contragrav/thruster combination for a personal vehicle would cost
about 400 CrImp.  That's still pretty cheap, but not as cheap as the
cheapest powered wheel drivetrains at about 100 CrImp (as produced by
a TL6 world).


> I see cheap wheeled vehicles and GEVs (hovercraft) being much more
> the main stay of many worlds especially periphery ones.

I don't think you would see GEVs in general use.  They have most of
the combined disadvantages of ground and air vehicles (terrain
dependence, relatively low speed, lack of maneuverability, high cost,
fuel-hungry), with not many advantages.  There are only a few
specialized cirsumstances in which they would make sense.

On worlds with a meaningful amount of trade, I would expect a mix of
small wheeled vehicles and large grav vehicles, with grav vehicles
predominating in smaller sizes as the world's TL approaches 9.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 17:39:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug 23 16:39:09 2002
Subject: [TML] GEVs, WIGs, and airships on low tech worlds...
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEOEEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <B98C1530.6ACA8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/23/02 3:21 PM, Terry Carlino at carlino@cox.net wrote:

> I suspect a lot of this is due to technological inertia.
>=20
> For example in quantity I believe that the gas turbine engine, running on
> hydrogen would be just as cheap to produce as the internal combustion
> engine. However there is no benefit to automobile companies to build such
> engines as long as people will buy gas engines. Even though such engines
> have more moving parts and require more maintenance. There is a distinct
> disadvantage to gas stations , oil companies, auto parts stores, auto rep=
air
> shops, etc.
>=20
> No conspiracy here, just individuals doing what's best for themselves.

Certainly, but there are issues with storing hydrogen that don't exist with
gasoline.  As you say, there is no real impetus to change.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 17:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Fri Aug 23 16:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1030125203.5627.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNIEOJEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

>>
>> I'm not so sure this is true.  We manage to miss asteroids that are
>> plummeting towards the earth all the time.
>
>Yeah, well, we're not really looking for them, and unlike a typical
Traveller
>spaceship, asteroids don't glow.  Also, we generally do spot those objects
by
>the time they're within reasonable combat range (a couple of
light-seconds).
>>
>> It may in fact be very easy to 'hide' in space.  After all, you're
talking
>> about a relatively small object in a very large area.  And if you are
>> 'running silent' there may not be much to see.
>
>Ignoring on-board heat sources, a 100 meter object (30,000 dtons or so, a
>mid-sized warship) will have an overall apparent magnitude (at 1 AU) of
about
>21; if you somehow manage to eliminate 99% of incoming sunlight in a
difficult
>to detect manner way this becomes a 26.  At 5 light-seconds (very long
range in
>most versions of traveller, and far enough that light-lag makes targets
>basically unhittable) that becomes an apparent magnitude of 16, which is
>basically trackable with a 6" telescope.
>
>The limits of Traveller sensors are unclear and vary with the ruleset, but
if
>you have tech that lets you build lasers with ranges of multiple
light-seconds,
>scanning every 20th magnitude object in the heavens every few minutes
shouldn't
>be that challenging.

Which ignores the concept that stealth technology might advance as far as
other technologies. The truth is that we don't know if gravic or some other
technology can be used to spoof sensors. Heck it might even be possible to
send out a dozen missiles and have each one look like a cruiser to the
enemy's sensors.

At the very least why couldn't a ship simply turn off it's diesel ... I mean
fusion plant and drift in on batteries...I mean rechargeable powercells,
attempting to track enemy ships with is sonar... I mean PESA. With a hull
that has instant chameleon couldn't a vessel reflect almost no light, thus
reducing it's visual magnitude?

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 17:52:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug 23 16:52:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Laser 101 (was:Submarines and Battleships)
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1030143332.1183.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B98C186A.6ACAD%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/23/02 3:55 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@iii.com wrote:

>> up the wrong tree here).  What else limits range?
>=20
> Mostly, it's beam divergence, though evasion makes hitting extremely unli=
kely
> beyond a few light-seconds if ships have a bit of random motion, which
> warships
> would tend to do for exactly this reason.

Again, excuse my ignorance.  What causes beam divergence in vacuum?  Or is
it just a function of the limitations of focusing?

>=20
> Using realistic lasers, focusing enough to penetrate armor is unlikely be=
yond
> 5-10 thousand kilometers.  None of the Traveller design systems uses
> particularly realistic lasers, however; grav-focus X-ray lasers and spina=
l
> particle beams both logically allow planetary bombardment at multiple AU
> ranges
> with FF&S2, though that's rather non-canonical.

OK, bear with me.  My optics knowledge is pretty limited.  How critical is
focusing for a laser in vacuum.  I thought the whole point of lasers was
that the beam was coherent and had very little divergence, particularly
where there is no atmosphere.

[Apologies to the other list members for the Laser 101 questions.  It's
certainly not my area of expertise.]
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 18:03:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug 23 17:03:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <B98BD03D.6AC57%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0208231235550.23117-100000@harper.uchicago.edu> <B98BD03D.6AC57%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020824100232.B22769@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> I guess that was my question.  If a ship were to enter a system way
> out from the inhabited system, apply thrusts, and coast in ('silent
> running') how detectable would it be.

Ok, let's say it jumps in at 50 AU so that its jump flash is likely to
be unnoticed (a bit further than Pluto).  In order to arrive at the
target in less than a year, it needs to have a speed of 250 km/s.

To decelerate from that speed at 6 gees takes about an hour, and the
ship is visible for at least the last 500,000 km.  So even in that
case, detection range will be greater than weapon range.

If it doesn't decelerate, it gets one free round of fire (or less!)
before it is out of weapon range again.  Of course, there is the
slight problem that any ship attempting this tactic is out of action
for the better part of a year to obtain that single round of fire.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 18:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Aug 23 17:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Laser 101 (was:Submarines and Battleships)
In-Reply-To: <B98C186A.6ACAD%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1030147410.4978.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
> on 8/23/02 3:55 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@iii.com wrote:
> 
> >> up the wrong tree here).  What else limits range?
> > 
> > Mostly, it's beam divergence, though evasion makes hitting extremely
> > unlikely beyond a few light-seconds if ships have a bit of random
> > motion, which warships
> > would tend to do for exactly this reason.
> 
> Again, excuse my ignorance.  What causes beam divergence in vacuum? 

Wave mechanics.  Roughly speaking, minimum beam divergence is
(wavelength)/(focal diameter) radians, so for 0.5 nm visible light with a 5
meter lens divergence is 10^-7 radians, or a 30 meter spot at 1 light-second.

FF&S has two handwaves for this: they have 1A X-ray lasers (a 3 meter lens
diverges by 1/3e10, or 1 cm per light-second), and they have 'grav focus',
which increases the effective focal diameter by a ridiculous margin

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 18:10:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Aug 23 17:10:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNIEOJEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1030147777.495.ajackson@ping>

Terry Carlino writes:

> Which ignores the concept that stealth technology might advance as far as
> other technologies.

Well, I did assume a 99% reduction in emissions, which is being fairly
generous, but true, one can be more optimistic.

> At the very least why couldn't a ship simply turn off it's diesel ... I
> mean fusion plant and drift in on batteries...I mean rechargeable
> powercells, attempting to track enemy ships with is sonar... I mean PESA.
> With a hull that has instant chameleon couldn't a vessel reflect almost no
> light, thus reducing it's visual magnitude?

I was assuming a complete powerdown.  Ships using power are _much_ more
visible.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 18:13:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug 23 17:13:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <B98BD361.6AC5B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <ML-2.3.1030125203.5627.ajackson@ping> <B98BD361.6AC5B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020824100940.C22769@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> I'm just trying to figure out if there is any way to achieve some
> kind of surprise in space combat.

Yes, a defender of a system can quite easily surprise an attacker.

Any ships entering a system will almost certainly be spotted and
tracked.  Defending ships (or weapon platforms) could well be able to
hang around within weapons range of the attackers' intended target
without being spotted.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 18:17:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Fri Aug 23 17:17:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEOHEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <B98BFA69.6AC84%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020823200046.02724ed8@mail.qrc.com>

At 06:56 PM 8/23/2002, Terry Carlino wrote:
>Somebody Else said:
> >No so cheap.  At Cr20,000 that's out of the price range of the average
> >citizen.  That would be almost $60,000 in adjusted dollars.
>
>Maybe not, but you don't have to look far to find many people who do.

Here's some per-capita gross planetary product figures (derived from 
Striker/TCS rules and the pre-collapse CT data files) for the 
Imperium.  Presumably the per-capita GPP is some sort of indication of the 
level of wealth and purchasing power of the average Imperial sophont.

TL     K-Sophonts      GPP MCR         Per Capita
5       37257012        79262942         2127
6       243662391       1015717267       4169
7       331227961       2170196195       6552
8       473300881       3842187351       8118
9       957739459       9617238438      10042
A       1068217647      13955669269     13064
B       1482222892      22339862901     15072
C       2087695892      37698693105     18058
D       2366258243      46749937190     19757
E       2854949580      63879676471     22375
F       3865247695      91857019719     23765
G       914560153       24219935554     26483

Total Population:16,731,817,153,000 Sophonts
Gross Imperial Product: Cr 317,425,396,402,000,000
Per Capita GIP: Cr 18,971

(these totals include some 50 billion sophonts below TL-5 not shown in the 
table)

My conclusion being that there are likely to be trillions of sophonts in 
the Imperium who could well afford a Cr 10,000 to Cr 20,000 grav 
vehicle.  And many trillions more who could purchase a Cr 5,000 
grav-cycle.  Particularly at TLs below where these vehicles can be locally 
manufactured, they are far too expensive for the "average person" to 
purchase.  By by TL-B or C (when Grav vehicles should be entering the 
civilian market), there will be a considerable number of people who can 
afford to buy them.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 18:20:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug 23 17:20:19 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <B98BD6F8.6AC61%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEOACEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net> <B98BD6F8.6AC61%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020824101632.D22769@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> However, wheeled vehicles do not plummet to the ground because the
> operator forgot to fill the tank, change the oil, fix the tire or
> perform any other preventive maintenance.

Nor do grav vehicles, if designed halfway competently.


> A car is pretty much confined to a certain area so even if it goes
> out of control, the disaster will be limited.

This is true, and that's the main extra safety risk of a grav vehicle.


>  Now imagine a grav vehicle, speeding along at a much higher
> velocity

Why do you think that a grav vehicle will necessarily go faster than a
car in an urban environment?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 18:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 23 17:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] sensors and detection of objects in space
Message-ID: <d5.1c43130d.2a982a7f@aol.com>

 >Any idea what our current technology is?  How long would it take now to scan
 >every 20th magnitude object in a globe around the earth?

Reading in the papers recently about the new space probe that broke up on 
being propelled away from earth orbit, it seems to have taken NASA or whoever 
at least a day to acquire a visual of the vehicle, even though they knew 
approximately where to look and even though (I assume) the vehicle was 
powered by the usual thorium / thermocouple device and thus was radiating 
some heat.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 18:29:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug 23 17:29:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Non-prevalence of grav vehicles on lower tech worlds...
In-Reply-To: <20020824093252.A22769@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <B98C2133.6ACB8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/23/02 4:32 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:

>=20
> For example, a TL7 medium truck wheeled drivetrain would cost about
> 2000 CrImp.  A 50-tonne TL9 contragrav system is overkill, but would
> cost only about 625 CrImp.  A propeller system of equivalent power to
> the wheeled drivetrain costs 320 CrImp, for a total motive system cost
> of less than half the wheeled vehicle cost.

Well, I'm not sure I buy the whole idea that ContraGrav is going to be that
cheap that quickly.  What we have here is comparison of RL systems at RL
costs with fictional systems at guessed costs.  There's nothing to say that
Grav technology won't be one or more orders of magnitude greater than
quoted.

Bear in mind that wheeled automotive systems were particularly costly when
introduced, and price has declined greatly since that time.  I expect that
Grav technology will be the same.  Certainly, at some tech level it will
probably become more economically advantageous than wheeled transport, but
probably only at one or more TLs higher than when introduced.

Also, there are other factors.  As I mentioned in a previous post, Grav
vehicles will have to be much more reliable than current automobiles before
they are anywhere near as safe.  An annoyance in a wheeled vehicle (like a
systems failure) becomes a catastrophe in a grav vehicle.

Sure, commercial aircraft are relatively safe, but they receive huge amount=
s
of expensive maintenance by trained professionals whose only job is to
maintain them.  Compare that to the typical maintenance an auto gets.  I
don't imagine a grav vehicle will be popular with the commuting crowd if it
requires the kind of service an aircraft require.  That kind of service
requirement wont help the cost of operation of a grav vehicle either.  So
what if a grav vehicle is cheaper to by, if it costs 10x as much to operate=
.
>=20
> Unlike the wheeled vehicle, the contragrav vehicle can be used over
> any terrain, and unlike an airplane can handle abyssmal weather with
> ease.  It also performs significantly better than the wheeled truck in
> addition to being cheaper.  The main disadvantage is that the
> contragrav unit is more difficult to maintain locally on low-tech
> worlds.

The above will undoubtedly be a factor for some purchasers who must have
that kind of performance, in the same way that certain users employ
helicopters and aircraft now.  The performance justifies just about any
cost.
>=20
> The cost advantage of contragrav diminishes with smaller vehicles.  A
> contragrav/thruster combination for a personal vehicle would cost
> about 400 CrImp.  That's still pretty cheap, but not as cheap as the
> cheapest powered wheel drivetrains at about 100 CrImp (as produced by
> a TL6 world).

That's merely a function of game mechanics.  It seems that prices vary
wildly between Traveller systems.
>=20
> On worlds with a meaningful amount of trade, I would expect a mix of
> small wheeled vehicles and large grav vehicles, with grav vehicles
> predominating in smaller sizes as the world's TL approaches 9.

I expect that the initial users of grav vehicles will be by the military an=
d
other organizations that can bear the costs of both the vehicle and it's
maintenance, and can live with the safety issues.  Later, as reliability
increases and cost declines, commercial users will adopt grav vehicles,
still relying on professional operators and dedicated support personnel.
Finally, some time down the road, grav vehicles become reliable and safe
enough, and cheap enough for the masses.

Of course, in the Imperium, you always have the advantage of just copying
the technology from some other high tech world.  But then you get into the
whole thing about way isn't every world fairly high tech.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 18:33:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Fri Aug 23 17:33:06 2002
Subject: [TML] USS America - Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E83@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEOLEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

I never considered being in the navy particularly hazardous. For much of my
career the U.S. Navy had between 300 and 600 active duty navy vessels. In
the entire 20 years it lost 2 submarines and exactly 0 surface vessels. Two
ships were attacked by hostiles, neither by another ship.

I certainly knew men, and later women, who managed to be injured or die due
to the hazardous environment in which I worked. But these were industrial
accidents and I always thought just as likely to happen to civilians working
around heavy machinery or aboard ship.

With the possible exception of the Soviets no nation on the planet has had
the forces to successfully challenge a U.S Navy Carrier Battle Group. Had
the Stark been part of such a group no potentially hostile aircraft could
have gotten near enough to hit her. Carrier groups control airspace for 200
miles in all directions, when at sea.

As Larsen said, had her CIDS been activated she probably never would have
been hit, and most likely could have retaliated against her attacker, which
would have resulted in a "splash" of the plane.

As an engineer my contribution to the ship's combat readiness was to ensure
all weapons systems and propulsion stayed on line so the ship could fight.
Later I also became responsible for training others in repairing damaged
systems so that the ship would survive combat.

The Stark survived, even though she was very badly equipped for the task.
(That changed as a result of the attack. In a way we can thank Iraq for
causing that to happen. If future ships survive because of the improvements,
not just in equipment but in philosophy, because of the sucker punch the
Stark took from Iraq then truly "what does not kill you makes you
stronger.")

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 18:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug 23 17:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Laser 101 (was:Submarines and Battleships)
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1030147410.4978.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <B98C2279.6ACBC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/23/02 5:03 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@iii.com wrote:

>> Again, excuse my ignorance.  What causes beam divergence in vacuum?
>=20
> Wave mechanics.  Roughly speaking, minimum beam divergence is
> (wavelength)/(focal diameter) radians, so for 0.5 nm visible light with a=
 5
> meter lens divergence is 10^-7 radians, or a 30 meter spot at 1 light-sec=
ond.

Ahhhh.  It is becoming clear.  So the next question is, at what point does
the beam divergence render the beam ineffective? (I realize this is
dependant on many factors).  Or, more to the point, if you're a weapons
designer, you think in terms of effective range.  What is the typical
effective range of a military laser?


--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 18:41:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug 23 17:41:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <E17iLc9-0006ot-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <20020823164704.29641.35219.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <E17iLc9-0006ot-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020824103608.E22769@freeman.little-possums.net>

sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> In MT it is perfectly possible to create grav vehicles that seat 4 
> (cramped) and cost less than 20,000 Cr (16,150 Cr).

In GURPS Traveller it is perfectly possible to create grav vehicles
that seat 4 (cramped) and cost less than 3000 CrImp.  If you want a
*real* budget vehicle, you can ditch the redundant grav unit,
airconditioning, radio/stereo, reduce power etc. to get the price
under 2000 CrImp.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 18:45:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug 23 17:45:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020823200046.02724ed8@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <B98C243A.6ACC0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/23/02 5:17 PM, Derek Wildstar at wildstar@qrc.com wrote:

[snip of much useful data]

This is why I love the tml
>=20
> My conclusion being that there are likely to be trillions of sophonts in
> the Imperium who could well afford a Cr 10,000 to Cr 20,000 grav
> vehicle.  And many trillions more who could purchase a Cr 5,000
> grav-cycle.  Particularly at TLs below where these vehicles can be locall=
y
> manufactured, they are far too expensive for the "average person" to
> purchase.  By by TL-B or C (when Grav vehicles should be entering the
> civilian market), there will be a considerable number of people who can
> afford to buy them.

I agree that by TL B or C, Grav vehicles will be in common use.  I just
didn't buy the idea that with there introduction, grav vehicle would wipe
wheeled vehicles off the market.  Supposedly, grav vehicles are introduced
at TL10 (although strangely, book 3 lists them as TL 8).  It's not until
one or two tech levels higher that they become the dominant form of
transportation.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 18:48:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug 23 17:48:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <B98BF5E9.6AC7B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <52107.208.16.28.242.1030134147.squirrel@webmail.brick.net> <B98BF5E9.6AC7B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020824104256.F22769@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> Except that Traveller weaponry can fire at the range where the
> target is visible, and almost never misses.

OTU split strikes again.  Which version of Traveller?  Not in GURPS.


> Someone mentioned something about how Traveller 2300 compared ship combat
> with "playing hide and seek with bazookas".  But there's evidently no
> hiding.  It's more like "High Noon" with Bazookas.

Yes, that pretty much sums it up.  You can run away if you think
you're going to lose, though.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 18:52:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug 23 17:52:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <B98BFA69.6AC84%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <E17iLc9-0006ot-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net> <B98BFA69.6AC84%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020824105111.H22769@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> Looking at Traveller income, you have to make the grav car available at
> something like Cr7,000 before it could be within the reach of the average
> citizen.

In GURPS, you can get new low-end models out at 2000-3000 CrImp.

If you make them at lower quality, you can bring that down to a
rock-bottom price of about 1000 CrImp, at the cost of increased
maintenance requirements.

Used ones would be cheaper still.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 18:55:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug 23 17:55:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <B98BF76B.6AC7C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <ML-2.3.1030132732.2749.ajackson@ping> <B98BF76B.6AC7C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020824104542.G22769@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> I've fitted these with small maneuver drives that give them the same
> acceleration as 'real' vessels (these drive can be pretty small,
> since I'm not pushing much mass).  How does the defender deal with
> this.

The defender looks at the power output from the maneuver drives, looks
at their acceleration, and calculates the mass of the blip.  They may
well be off by a factor of 2 or 3, but not likely to be off by a
factor of 100.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 18:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Fri Aug 23 17:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Laser 101 (was:Submarines and Battleships)
In-Reply-To: <B98C2279.6ACBC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <ML-2.3.1030150424.311.ajackson@ping>

Tod Glenn writes:
> 
> Ahhhh.  It is becoming clear.  So the next question is, at what point does
> the beam divergence render the beam ineffective? (I realize this is
> dependant on many factors).  Or, more to the point, if you're a weapons
> designer, you think in terms of effective range.  What is the typical
> effective range of a military laser?

Hard to say.  FF&S assumes 1 cm, which is probably pessimistic.  In general,
you want 'as thin as possible', but it's probably pointless to go for more than
20-50% of the thickness of the armor you're firing through, since the hole
probably has a minimum diameter based on the thickness of the armor.

A 750MJ beam in FF&S2 has a penetration of about 25 cm steel; vaporizing that
much steel takes about 1.5 megajoules per square centimeter, so it could cover
500 square centimeters, or a 25 cm diameter.  In GT the same weapon at TL 12
has a penetration of 165 cm steel, requiring a diameter of around 10 cm.  The
plausible figure is probably between these two values.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 19:02:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug 23 18:02:25 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <20020824101632.D22769@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <B98C27B7.6ACC4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/23/02 5:16 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:

> Tod Glenn wrote:
>> However, wheeled vehicles do not plummet to the ground because the
>> operator forgot to fill the tank, change the oil, fix the tire or
>> perform any other preventive maintenance.
>=20
> Nor do grav vehicles, if designed halfway competently.

Your are comparing the reliability of gravity to the reliability of a
manufactured system.  As I noted, the grav vehicle would have to be at leas=
t
an order of magnitude more reliable than an auto to be just as safe.  I'm
not saying that this cannot be achieved, just that it will be an engineerin=
g
problem that will have to be dealt with.

Think about what that would require.  At the very least, that would mean
redundant systems, adding to the cost.  Moller has been working on his
aircar for what, 30 years, and has yet to get it to the point where it's
safe and reliable enough to even begin thinking about the average user.

I know, the Imperium has been doing it for a thousand years.

Still, you'd have to have at least a couple of systems that almost never
fail:  Gravitics and power. And they have to do maintain this over their
entire useful life unless you are going to impose draconian inspection
requirements or develop a near perfect fault prediction system that will
render the vehicle unusable if it detects a fault.  Better have two, in cas=
e
the fault prediction systems develops a fault.  Make that three, so you can
have voting.  Naturally, this presupposes that the fault predictor
identifies the fault before you are in the air.

It's a complex and difficult challenge.  Putting anything a few hundred fee=
t
in the air rapidly turns a minor annoyance into a catastrophe when somethin=
g
goes wrong.  Or someone does something stupid.
>=20
>=20
>> A car is pretty much confined to a certain area so even if it goes
>> out of control, the disaster will be limited.
>=20
> This is true, and that's the main extra safety risk of a grav vehicle.

That and the fact that a grav vehicle can also go down.
>=20
>=20
>> Now imagine a grav vehicle, speeding along at a much higher
>> velocity
>=20
> Why do you think that a grav vehicle will necessarily go faster than a
> car in an urban environment?

Someone had posted just that.  Personally, I expect that there would be
speed restrictions in urban spaces for just this reason.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 19:06:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Fri Aug 23 18:06:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Non-prevalence of grav vehicles on lower tech worlds...
In-Reply-To: <B98C2133.6ACB8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNEEOMEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

As with RL discussions of public transportation the total cost of use is
being completely ignored here. The amount of money a society must pay for
roads could be used to subsidize the purchase of grav vehicles, which would
make them dirt cheap.

Does anyone have any idea how much a mile of road costs, not to mention
traffic control, lighting, etc.?


Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Tod Glenn
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2002 8:28 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Non-prevalence of grav vehicles on lower tech worlds...

on 8/23/02 4:32 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:

>
> For example, a TL7 medium truck wheeled drivetrain would cost about
> 2000 CrImp.  A 50-tonne TL9 contragrav system is overkill, but would
> cost only about 625 CrImp.  A propeller system of equivalent power to
> the wheeled drivetrain costs 320 CrImp, for a total motive system cost
> of less than half the wheeled vehicle cost.

Well, I'm not sure I buy the whole idea that ContraGrav is going to be that
cheap that quickly.  What we have here is comparison of RL systems at RL
costs with fictional systems at guessed costs.  There's nothing to say that
Grav technology won't be one or more orders of magnitude greater than
quoted.

Bear in mind that wheeled automotive systems were particularly costly when
introduced, and price has declined greatly since that time.  I expect that
Grav technology will be the same.  Certainly, at some tech level it will
probably become more economically advantageous than wheeled transport, but
probably only at one or more TLs higher than when introduced.

Also, there are other factors.  As I mentioned in a previous post, Grav
vehicles will have to be much more reliable than current automobiles before
they are anywhere near as safe.  An annoyance in a wheeled vehicle (like a
systems failure) becomes a catastrophe in a grav vehicle.

Sure, commercial aircraft are relatively safe, but they receive huge amounts
of expensive maintenance by trained professionals whose only job is to
maintain them.  Compare that to the typical maintenance an auto gets.  I
don't imagine a grav vehicle will be popular with the commuting crowd if it
requires the kind of service an aircraft require.  That kind of service
requirement wont help the cost of operation of a grav vehicle either.  So
what if a grav vehicle is cheaper to by, if it costs 10x as much to operate.
>
> Unlike the wheeled vehicle, the contragrav vehicle can be used over
> any terrain, and unlike an airplane can handle abyssmal weather with
> ease.  It also performs significantly better than the wheeled truck in
> addition to being cheaper.  The main disadvantage is that the
> contragrav unit is more difficult to maintain locally on low-tech
> worlds.

The above will undoubtedly be a factor for some purchasers who must have
that kind of performance, in the same way that certain users employ
helicopters and aircraft now.  The performance justifies just about any
cost.
>
> The cost advantage of contragrav diminishes with smaller vehicles.  A
> contragrav/thruster combination for a personal vehicle would cost
> about 400 CrImp.  That's still pretty cheap, but not as cheap as the
> cheapest powered wheel drivetrains at about 100 CrImp (as produced by
> a TL6 world).

That's merely a function of game mechanics.  It seems that prices vary
wildly between Traveller systems.
>
> On worlds with a meaningful amount of trade, I would expect a mix of
> small wheeled vehicles and large grav vehicles, with grav vehicles
> predominating in smaller sizes as the world's TL approaches 9.

I expect that the initial users of grav vehicles will be by the military and
other organizations that can bear the costs of both the vehicle and it's
maintenance, and can live with the safety issues.  Later, as reliability
increases and cost declines, commercial users will adopt grav vehicles,
still relying on professional operators and dedicated support personnel.
Finally, some time down the road, grav vehicles become reliable and safe
enough, and cheap enough for the masses.

Of course, in the Imperium, you always have the advantage of just copying
the technology from some other high tech world.  But then you get into the
whole thing about way isn't every world fairly high tech.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.
--
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 19:09:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug 23 18:09:23 2002
Subject: [TML] USS America - Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNAEOLEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <B98C28BD.6ACC5%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/23/02 5:23 PM, Terry Carlino at carlino@cox.net wrote:

> I never considered being in the navy particularly hazardous. For much of =
my
> career the U.S. Navy had between 300 and 600 active duty navy vessels. In
> the entire 20 years it lost 2 submarines and exactly 0 surface vessels. T=
wo
> ships were attacked by hostiles, neither by another ship.

I think the assumption should have included the phrase "in time of war",
though certainly the vulnerability of an infantryman is much more than that
of a sailor.  Any yahoo with a rifle is a hazard to a rifleman.  But as you
say, only perhaps the Soviet navy was a credible threat to a US battlegroup=
.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 19:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug 23 18:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Non-prevalence of grav vehicles on lower tech worlds...
In-Reply-To: <B98C2133.6ACB8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020824093252.A22769@freeman.little-possums.net> <B98C2133.6ACB8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020824111542.I22769@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> Well, I'm not sure I buy the whole idea that ContraGrav is going to
> be that cheap that quickly.

Your call, but it's canonical in the GURPS version of the OTU.


>  What we have here is comparison of RL systems at RL costs with
> fictional systems at guessed costs.

No, we are comparing RL systems at fictional (game-system) costs with
fictional systems at fictional (game-system) costs.


>  There's nothing to say that Grav technology won't be one or more
> orders of magnitude greater than quoted.

There's nothing to say that Grav technology won't be impossible.


> Bear in mind that wheeled automotive systems were particularly
> costly when introduced, and price has declined greatly since that
> time.  I expect that Grav technology will be the same.

That's the model GURPS uses: at TL8 (where first introduced in GT),
contragrav is five times more expensive than at TL9 (where it is a
mature technology).


> As I mentioned in a previous post, Grav vehicles will have to be
> much more reliable than current automobiles before they are anywhere
> near as safe.

And I responded to that in my reply to your previous post.


> That's merely a function of game mechanics.  It seems that prices vary
> wildly between Traveller systems.

That's right.  It's not "merely" a function of game mechanics though,
it's a real divergence between various OTUs.


> Finally, some time down the road, grav vehicles become reliable and
> safe enough, and cheap enough for the masses.

In Traveller, that all happened thousands of years ago and is relevant
only to historians.


> Of course, in the Imperium, you always have the advantage of just
> copying the technology from some other high tech world.

Not copy, just import.  You might not be able to copy if you don't
have the necesary infrastructure.  You might not even *want* to copy.
For example, a TL11 world is probably better off importing contragrav
units produced at TL9 than producing them locally.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 19:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug 23 18:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <20020824104256.F22769@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <B98C2DD7.6ACD2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/23/02 5:42 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:

>> Someone mentioned something about how Traveller 2300 compared ship comba=
t
>> with "playing hide and seek with bazookas".  But there's evidently no
>> hiding.  It's more like "High Noon" with Bazookas.
>=20
> Yes, that pretty much sums it up.  You can run away if you think
> you're going to lose, though.

Maybe.  If your enemy has the same acceleration, about all you can do is
maintain range.  Hopefully, you can jump.  How good an idea that is with
stuff going off around you is another matter.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 19:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug 23 18:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <20020824105111.H22769@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <B98C2ED6.6ACD3%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/23/02 5:51 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:

> Tod Glenn wrote:
>> Looking at Traveller income, you have to make the grav car available at
>> something like Cr7,000 before it could be within the reach of the averag=
e
>> citizen.
>=20
> In GURPS, you can get new low-end models out at 2000-3000 CrImp.
>=20
> If you make them at lower quality, you can bring that down to a
> rock-bottom price of about 1000 CrImp, at the cost of increased
> maintenance requirements.
>=20
> Used ones would be cheaper still.

Which make me think that GURPS pricing structure is out of whack.  Rather
than using the transportation model, it sounds like they are using the
computer model (i.e. vehicle get cheaper and more powerful).  Personally, I
don't buy it.

It reminds me of a quote.  Something to the effect of

"If cars were like computers, you'd be able to buy a car for $1000 that get=
s
500 miles to the gallon and goes 300 miles per hour.  Of course this car
would occasionally explode for no reason, killing all the occupants."

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 19:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug 23 18:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <20020824104542.G22769@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <B98C2F20.6ACD4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/23/02 5:45 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:

> Tod Glenn wrote:
>> I've fitted these with small maneuver drives that give them the same
>> acceleration as 'real' vessels (these drive can be pretty small,
>> since I'm not pushing much mass).  How does the defender deal with
>> this.
>=20
> The defender looks at the power output from the maneuver drives, looks
> at their acceleration, and calculates the mass of the blip.  They may
> well be off by a factor of 2 or 3, but not likely to be off by a
> factor of 100.
>=20

How does the defender measure power output?  And can this be spoofed?

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 19:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug 23 18:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Non-prevalence of grav vehicles on lower tech worlds...
In-Reply-To: <20020824111542.I22769@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <B98C31A3.6ACD9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/23/02 6:15 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:

> Tod Glenn wrote:
>> Well, I'm not sure I buy the whole idea that ContraGrav is going to
>> be that cheap that quickly.
>=20
> Your call, but it's canonical in the GURPS version of the OTU.

Is GURPS canon?<g,d,r>
>=20
>=20
>> What we have here is comparison of RL systems at RL costs with
>> fictional systems at guessed costs.
>=20
> No, we are comparing RL systems at fictional (game-system) costs with
> fictional systems at fictional (game-system) costs.

I don't know enough about GURPS.  It seems apparent to me that much of CT
item costs were based on 1977 dollar amounts (approximated)
>=20
> That's the model GURPS uses: at TL8 (where first introduced in GT),
> contragrav is five times more expensive than at TL9 (where it is a
> mature technology).

Just out of curiosity, how does grav technology when introduced compare in
cost to wheel technology?
>=20
> Not copy, just import.  You might not be able to copy if you don't
> have the necesary infrastructure.  You might not even *want* to copy.
> For example, a TL11 world is probably better off importing contragrav
> units produced at TL9 than producing them locally.
>=20

Making lower tech worlds economic slaves to higher tech one.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 19:42:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug 23 18:42:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
Message-ID: <200208240138.NKX00465@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Mark Urbin says
>On Garda-Vilis, I'm making ownership of grav vehicles 
>restricted to those with government licenses.
>The exceptions would be the grav vehicles owned by the 
>Starport Authority and the IISS base.
>Those are registered with the government also.
>
>Most travel between cities is by commercial grav transport 
>or rail.
>
>Out in the boonies, most grav vehicles are owned by the 
>government or the large ranches (with the political 
>connections).

I have Vilis as a densely populated world, per canon.

Since it's a planned colony, I'm putting a lot of the 
population in arcologies, with most long distance personnel 
transport by grav shuttle (at Vilis' tech level and city 
structure, not many people will own a personal grav 
vehicle).  Cargo transport between cities is by evacuated 
tunnel maglev (supersonic).

Inside the arcologies, there are small trains, or even 
individual cars on tracks for distance travel within the 
arcology.  That, and a lot of slidewalks.

So, I'm thinking the pattern isn't that far off from the way 
things are run on Garda-Vilis.
________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 19:46:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug 23 18:46:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <B98C2ED6.6ACD3%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B98C3214.6ACDD%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/23/02 6:26 PM, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:

> It reminds me of a quote.  Something to the effect of
>=20
> "If cars were like computers, you'd be able to buy a car for $1000 that g=
ets
> 500 miles to the gallon and goes 300 miles per hour.  Of course this car
> would occasionally explode for no reason, killing all the occupants."
>=20

To which I forgot to add "Strangely, most people would accept this."
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 19:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug 23 18:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <B98C27B7.6ACC4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020824101632.D22769@freeman.little-possums.net> <B98C27B7.6ACC4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020824115252.J22769@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> Your are comparing the reliability of gravity to the reliability of
> a manufactured system.

I am.  That's more reasonable than comparing the reliability of
gravity to the reliability of a J. Random operator, as you did.  I am
quite aware that manufactured systems are going to be less reliable
than gravity.  That does not mean that they have to be unreliable in
any meaningful sense, or unsafe as a result.


> I know, the Imperium has been doing it for a thousand years.

Substantially longer than that, I believe.  Contragrav predates the
Third Imperium.


> Still, you'd have to have at least a couple of systems that almost
> never fail: Gravitics and power.

Qualification: almost never *totally* fail.  If one grav unit dies,
and the main power plant gives up the ghost simultaneously, the power
cells in the remaining grav unit are good for half an hour.  That's a
standard feature in all my grav vehicle designs.

So, in order to fall out of the sky, both grav units have to fail
completely and within seconds of each other.  That isn't comparable to
the likelihood of a finding a flat tire or forgetting to change the
oil, it's comparable to front and rear wheels falling off while
driving at high speed.


> That and the fact that a grav vehicle can also go down.

I strongly suspect that the likelihood of that happening is much less
than the likelihood of high speed collisions we accept for
automobiles.

Even in the unlikely event of both grav units failing simultaneously,
a fall from 20 metres is no worse than a ground vehicle collision at
moderate speed.


You seem to be basing your safety estimates of grav vehicles on
aircraft, which by their nature must expend very large amounts of
power and maintain very high speeds to stay aloft, and due to their
very high speeds and low maneuverability must travel very high to
avoid terrain features and buildings.  Furthermore, the control
surfaces and propulsive elements are necessarily large, and redundant
units add a great cost in performance.

Grav units require trivial amounts of power, are compact, have no
lower limit on speed, and redundant units are easy to add without much
impact on anything else.  They can (and mass-market vehicles almost
always will) travel at much lower altitudes and speeds.  All these
factors make them inherently much more safe than aircraft.

Furthermore, you can use them along roads much like ground vehicles if
you wish, with the added advantage that they can safely leave the road
in an emergency.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 19:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug 23 18:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
Message-ID: <200208240158.NKX01445@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>Could you go into this in more detail?  What is the limiting 
>factor for energy weapon range in vacuum?  Aside from the 
>time lag and the targets ability to maneuver.  Certainly, 
>there's beam divergence, and some energy lost by being 
>absorbed by interstellar dust and hydrgogen (or am I barking
>up the wrong tree here).  What else limits range?

For lasers, the operating wavelength and the mirror diameter, 
in combination with the stability and accuracy of the beam 
steering (the mirror's mount) and the amount of jitter (how 
well is the mount isolated from the rest of the ship) 
determine the "spot" size at a maximum range. Given a 
specific power level, there is a maximum spot size that will 
cause damage.

At current tech levels, they feel confident in making a space 
based weapon with an effective range of 6000km, and a spot 
size of 5 to 6 inches.  That's with a 10 meter mirror and a 
2.5 micron wavelength, and a power level of 25 MW.  This is 
to attack missile boosters just as they clear the atmosphere.

6000km in Traveller terms is next to nowhere.

The lasers can't be in turrets, IMHO, unless the turret is 
quite large.  To have the ranges we're talking about in 
Traveller, I'm thinking that mirrors are going to be much 
larger than people think.

Maybe the mirrors unfold.  There are some neat calculations 
along these lines in the OTA's assessment of SDI technology.

Beam jitter is a serious problem.  Generating huge amounts of 
power with virtually no vibration?  I can think of major 
reasons to turn off the gravity compensators inside the ship -
 aside from someone detecting gravity waves.  We may need the 
kind of vibration isolation technology applied to current 
submarines to allow weapons to fire to the extreme ranges we 
think are so common in Traveller.

Imagine a vibration enough to cause 1 milliradian of beam 
pointing error over the firing time.  At 1000km, that might 
not be that big of a deal.  At 1,000,000km, it's a big deal.  
The spot may move so much over such a wide area, that the 
target will be illuminated rather than damaged.
________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 20:09:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug 23 19:09:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Non-prevalence of grav vehicles on lower tech worlds...
Message-ID: <200208240208.NKX01982@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Terry Carlino asks
>Does anyone have any idea how much a mile of road costs, not 
>to mention traffic control, lighting, etc.?

A mile of eight lane interstate here in Maryland costs about 
5 million dollars.
________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 20:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 23 19:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: deckplans classic scoutship
Message-ID: <81.206f47f0.2a9845e8@aol.com>

 >>Also here are some deckplans for the classic scout ship at
 >>
 >>http://members.aol.com/exog/myhomepage/scout.html
 >
 >Interesting idea, maintaining the same (or at least
 >roughly similar) design through a range of tech levels.
 >Perhaps this would be a design promulgated by a central
 >office (such as the IISS Ship Design Bureau) with the
 >intent that it will be made at local tech levels.

It's my pet fixation.  Having standard designs should make resupply and 
repair much easier and cheaper.  A type-S scout built on Strouden that needs 
a maneuver drive part replaced can readily find it on Junidy or Mirriam, and 
scouts of any tech level can be readily cannibalized to restore scouts of any 
other tech level.

 >No ship's vehicles as standard, but the cargo bay
 >could serve as a garage at need.

The sliding pressure-boundary door allows just about anything to fit into it.

 >I understand that you're making computers negligible
 >in power and space in your variant, but are you also
 >varying the rules for bridge spaces?  A 100dtn craft
 >should have a 20dtn bridge, your looks to have about 3.

The entire outer section forward of the first bulkhead is meant to be the 
bridge equipment, I just neglected to so specify in my write-up.  I looked at 
that narrowing bow and decided that all that space would have to be taken up 
by bridge stuff, but it couldn't be accessible to anyone taller than 2' even 
if it were inside the pressure hull, so most of it is outside the pressure 
hull.  I envision the outer hull as being bolted on and easily removed, so it 
shouldn't be too difficult to access the gear for maintenance and repair.  I 
suppose the nose could be occupied by fuel instead, but then the rest of the 
ship would start looking silly (to me).  It's a tough hull shape to work with.

 >The usual Traveller starship design uses a good portion
 >of the "bridge spaces" as avionics and such - are you
 >considering the life support, airlock and "g"(?) space
 >as part of this ship's bridge?

No.  "G" is just a gear locker.  And the life support module is in addition 
to that which CT says is located in the staterooms.  CT ignores life support 
issues, and while I don't get heavily into it I try to make some identifiable 
provision for it.  It always seemed silly to me to stuff twelve people into a 
gig outfitted only with couches and then to fly off into a vaccuum -- 
Murphy's Law and all that.  By the rules a ship with cabins doesn't need a 
life support module, but I put one in anyway just to centralized and 
duplicate the equipment.

 >By the way, in your Traveller universe, can a 10dtn
 >TL-15 fightercraft sport a Model/9 computer?  Finding
 >the energy and space for the best computer is one of
 >the factors that make small craft lose their prominence
 >as TL goes up, your variant (making computers have no
 >displacement or power needs) would reverse that a bit.

Yes, and yes it does, but not much.  Every time I designed a ship with 13 or 
26 tons for a computer I felt like I was putting in a bank of oars or a 
trebuchet or something.  In doing away with computer space and energy 
requirements fighters do become more capable than CT allows, but since their 
choice of mounted weapons does not increase then they really only become more 
dangerous to civilian shipping and not to significant warships.  At tech 15 a 
factor 3 nuke missile salvo, the strongest weapon a fighter can mount, cannot 
penetrate a factor 9 nuclear damper screen, and only penetrates a factor 5 
fusion gun battery on a 7+.  Meanwhile if a fighter is hit by any weapon it 
is subject to many automatic critical hits and is swept aside immediately.  
Larger ships, of course, are virtually unaffected by such a rule change.

 >I've used the common interpretation that the space and
 >power requirements of Traveller starship computers
 >represent a combination of reliability assurance
 >and sensors/scanners.

I've always felt that was the proper realm of the bridge, and if needed its 
size can be increased.  To me, the bridge is not only the space where the 
crew sits, but also the external and internal sensors, external and internal 
communications, internal command and control devices, remote engineering 
controls, display monitors and projectors, EMP hardening, and everything else 
incident to operating, flying, and fighting the ship.  The computer is simply 
part of all that, and since it won't be rendering vast amounts of realistic 
graphics or trying to break encryption cyphers, but instead will be doing 
fairly straightforward work that probably DOS could handle, then I don't see 
any need for it to have any noteworthy space allocated to it.

Thanks for looking at it.  I hope someone finds it worthy of use.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 20:19:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug 23 19:19:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Non-prevalence of grav vehicles on lower tech worlds...
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNEEOMEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
References: <B98C2133.6ACB8%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNEEOMEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20020824121822.K22769@freeman.little-possums.net>

Terry Carlino wrote:
> Does anyone have any idea how much a mile of road costs, not to
> mention traffic control, lighting, etc.?

I don't know about traffic control costs and lighting, which I expect
would still be needed by a grav-vehicle based society.

The total cost is hard to estimate, since it is usually dominated by
the cost of land acquisitions required to build the road.  The actual
construction costs for rural and suburban roads seem to center around
US$50k per mile, with an order of magnitude variation to either side
depending upon various factors.

Expressways can be hugely expensive: take a look at
  http://www.thruway.state.ny.us/factbook/
for some really scary numbers.  e.g. "the 15-mile New England Section
cost an average of $6,210,000 a mile".

Annual maintenance seems to vary between 5% and 20% of construction
cost for most roads.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 20:23:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug 23 19:23:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <B98C2DD7.6ACD2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020824104256.F22769@freeman.little-possums.net> <B98C2DD7.6ACD2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020824122101.L22769@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> Maybe.  If your enemy has the same acceleration, about all you can do is
> maintain range.  Hopefully, you can jump.  How good an idea that is with
> stuff going off around you is another matter.

It was jumping I was thinking of.  If you can't expect to last another
round to jump out, you're toast anyway so you may as well try.

In most cases I've seen, either you're dead already or you can jump
out safely.  The exceptions are almost all inside 100D limits.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 20:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Aug 23 19:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] District 268, fleets and the type T cruiser
References: <F111PxNEM8gdaoRkRCD00022dd1@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D66EF74.8E4319FE@mindspring.com>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
> 
> From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
> 
>      "I'd think that SDBs would be a local command issue.  If they aren't,
> might I humbly suggest that a better title would be ComSysGlis for
> Commander, System Defenses, Glisten Subsector?"
> 
> Mr. Berry,
> 
>      That works for me.  My goofy ComMonGlis (monitors) and ComSDBGlis
> (SDBs) could be folded into a ComSysGlis or ComSysDefGlis.  That office
> would be more of a IN technical and training liaison to local system
> defenses.
>      A world raising it's own system defenses would apply for imperial funds
> and ComSysGlis would arrive to ensure training standards were met, iron out
> any comm snafus, and make sure local equipment was compatible with the IN
> stuff.
> 
>      Sincerely,
>      Larsen
> 

I like this also and since you used my system I'm opting for ComSysGlis.
This covers Imperial monitors and SDB's. I was going to say home based
fighter squadrons but I expect that the IN would want them to rotate to
the fleet. 
Colonial units when activated would chop to whatever command
ComNavForDDeneb has assigned them to. I'm sure this has been thought out
in great detail by whoever grabbed Norris's homeworld. Hopefully they'll
post details. 
I'm presently designing the 100th Fleet using MT. Worked my way through
DE's and have one Destroyer with a couple variants. Anyone with Swordie
or Zho designs to attack my group? They are going to be attacking
Fornine/District 268 soon and need some spaceworthy foes.(Watch out Tim,
one of the PC's lost a sister at Eisberg)
 I'm limiting them to TL 13 except for two 50 dton fighters at TL 15.
And of course whatever they can capture and crew. 

-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
A man needs a mistress if only to break the monogamy
                                     -Unknown

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 20:35:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 23 19:35:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Non-prevalence of grav vehicles on lower tech worlds...
Message-ID: <162.12ca3780.2a984ac7@aol.com>

 >The ubiquitous "mag-lev" train is popular in scifi. I suppose goods as well 
as
 >people can travel in this way, but how do you get goods to the individual
 >store or apartment?

Indeed, how could you get anywhere that the athorities had decided they 
didn't want you to go?  As for getting stuff home, it would require that 
everyone live in huge centralized apartments that were bisected by such 
trains.

I've always felt that "public transportation" would be the greatest 
totalitarian crowd control device ever invented.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 20:39:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug 23 19:39:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <B98C2ED6.6ACD3%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020824105111.H22769@freeman.little-possums.net> <B98C2ED6.6ACD3%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020824123637.M22769@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
>  Rather than using the transportation model, it sounds like they are
> using the computer model (i.e. vehicle get cheaper and more
> powerful).

No, it's just that a TL9 contragrav unit fitted to a TL7 car body is
pretty cheap in terms of purchasing power of TL10 citizens.  Except
for the motive system, the 2000 CrImp model I mentioned is just a
modern low-cost compact car -- no better, no worse.  The 1000 CrImp
model is what you might see if there was little in the way of safety
regulations.

What you're interpreting as the vehicle getting cheaper and more
powerful is mostly just the increased purchasing power of a TL10 CrImp
compared to a TL7 local credit.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 20:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ken Murphy)
Date: Fri Aug 23 19:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Dead Horse Disintegrators
Message-ID: <F80t8pNGPfQ6jTf3ogQ0000647c@hotmail.com>


   Hi gang,
   Hate to beat this dead horse to death yet one more time, but would 
whoever *did* receive the Dragon Disintegrator article from Frankie mind 
emailing a copy of it to *me* at MurfNMurf@aol.com ?
   Thanks in advance
  -Ken-

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 20:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Aug 23 19:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The DIE EMPIRE!
Message-ID: <3D66F3CD.B329D600@mail.cswnet.com>

Ship: DIE EMPIRE!
Class: DIE EMPIRE!
Type: Intruder Corsair
Architect: Dan Roseberry
Tech Level: 13

USP
         JC-0103311-000000-00003-0 MCr 16.775 15 Tons
Bat Bear                       1   Crew: 5
Bat                            1   TL: 13
Cargo: 4.300 Emergency Low: 2 Fuel: 1.000 EP: 0.450 Agility: 3 Pirates:
4
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops

Architects Fee: MCr 0.168   Cost in Quantity: MCr 13.420

Detailed Description

HULL
15.000 tons standard, 210.000 cubic meters, Needle/Wedge Configuration

CREW
Pilot, 4 Pirates

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 3G Manuever, Power plant-3, 0.450 EP, Agility 3

AVIONICS
No Bridge Installed, Model/2 Computer

HARDPOINTS
1 Hardpoint

ARMAMENT
1 Triple Missile Turret organised into 1 Battery (Factor-3)

DEFENCES
None

CRAFT
None

FUEL
0.450 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
5 Acceleration Couches, 2 Emergency Low Berths, 4.300 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 16.943 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 0.168), MCr 13.420 in
Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
8 Weeks Singly, 7 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
After two successive defeats at the hands of the Empire, the 
remaining rebels on Lewis try to rebuild their forces. After sifting
through the old port junkyard, the only remaining portion of the old
starport that survived, the rebels have managed to cobble together parts
from two launches and a lifeboat to create the DIE EMPIRE attack ship.
Now the question is: Who will be brave enough to crew it.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 20:55:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug 23 19:55:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Non-prevalence of grav vehicles on lower tech worlds...
In-Reply-To: <B98C31A3.6ACD9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020824111542.I22769@freeman.little-possums.net> <B98C31A3.6ACD9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020824125220.N22769@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> Just out of curiosity, how does grav technology when introduced
> compare in cost to wheel technology?

It is significantly more expensive for all but the largest vehicles.

However, it isn't easy to define *exactly* how much more expensive,
since the cost of powered wheels depends upon how much power you want,
while contragrav itself depends only upon the weight.

You also need to add some sort of motive system.  At the tech level
where contragrav is first introduced (GURPS TL8), there are many
options with various characteristics, all of which differ from wheels
in how their parameters relate to performance of various kinds.
Reactionless thrusters are at that point still quite expensive, so
aerial propellers or jets would probably work out better for most
purposes.

You could, theoretically, even have a wheeled contragrav vehicle that
merely uses the contragrav to reduce ground pressure for better
off-road performance.


[...]
> Making lower tech worlds economic slaves to higher tech one.

Somewhat of an exagerration, but a justifiable one.  Did you expect
anything else?  High-tech worlds are in more of a position of power,
so long as the low-tech worlds want high-tech goods.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 20:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Fri Aug 23 19:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020823173254.00cc2bd0@192.168.0.1>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020823173254.00cc2bd0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <3d68e827.23788529@post.demon.co.uk>

Mark Urbin <eclipse@urbin.net> writes:

>On Garda-Vilis, I'm making ownership of grav vehicles restricted to =
those=20
>with government licenses.

On Vincennes, the standard method of civilian transport is
"hoverdiscs".  These are circular platforms, 400mm diameter, with a
telescopic handhold/control stick (extensible up to 1 metre)  fitted
at one edge, and a miniature CG unit and thruster in the disc.

They mostly fly preprogrammed routes:  controlling one is a matter of
holding down the big red button on the stick and telling the disc your
destination, then enjoying the ride.  The more expensive discs have
manual controls as well; a government licence is required to own or
operate one of these.

Typically the discs travel at half a metre or so above the surface,
but their collision-avoidance software can make them swoop up and over
oncoming traffic, and many main corridors within Vincennes'
multi-level cities have traffic lanes stacked several layers deep.

=46or short journeys, most people simply stand on the disc and hold on
to the control stick;  those unable or unwilling to stand can sit on
the platform instead (having first retracted the stick to its minimum
length).  Safety straps are provided;  using them is a legal
requirement but this law is only enforced if the police are looking
for an excuse to arrest you anyway.  A popular sport among teenage
boys wanting to show off is retracting the stick, but standing upright
on the disc anyway (and, of course, not using the safety straps
either...).  Of course, this is even more illegal - but note that the
typical Vincennien attitude to such behaviour is that they don't care
if you hurt your own fool self, although if you damage City property
(or other citizens) by falling on it/them from a great height you're
in Big Trouble. =20

Discs have a small storage area for cargo;  it is also common to see
people with bags hooked over the control stick or slung underneath the
disc (this causes occasional accidents when one disc climbs to fly
over another, but the autopilot fails to allow sufficient clearance
for the hanging cargo).

It is possible to slave together several discs;  the lead disc follows
the preset route (or operates under manual control) while the slave
discs follow it in close follow-the-leader formation.  This may be
done when carrying large amounts of luggage (which is strapped to the
slave discs), by families taking young children on a journey (again,
they're strapped to the slave discs), by people who simply want to
hold a conversation with each other as they travel, or as the
Vincennien equivalent of a taxi.

Relatively few citizens own their own discs.  Many are provided free
of charge by large local corporations, particularly those that
originally sponsored the city they are used in. Of course, such discs
tend to be old, battered, idiosyncratic in performance (but perfectly
safe and well-maintained, naturally) and covered in prominent
advertisements and logos for the company that paid for them.  It is
rumoured that many companies have also illicitly modified the
route-finding software in their discs to always take the user past
shops or showrooms selling their products, rather than on the most
direct route...  Better-quality discs may be hired for a few
centicredits an hour;  and privately owned models often have special
modifications such as actual seating or extra cargo space.  For the
most part, though, citizens simply take a disc from the nearest
parking rank, or press a handy streetside call-button to summon one;
travel to their destination; then release the disc to make its own way
back to a parking rank.

Of course, these discs are only used inside Vincennes' cities.  In
Leresif (the underwater megaloarcology) mass transit using maglev
trains or sliding walkways is the norm, while flying grav vehicles
*outside* is extremely dangerous (something to do with those
hurricane-force winds) and requires extensive training and possession
of numerous government licences and permits.

Stephen

www.stempest.demon.co.uk/traveller/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 21:02:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug 23 20:02:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <200208240158.NKX01445@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208240158.NKX01445@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020824125649.O22769@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> The lasers can't be in turrets, IMHO, unless the turret is 
> quite large.

I don't know about other Traveller systems, but in GT the starship
lasers are all in X-ray wavelengths.


> Beam jitter is a serious problem.

Yes, I see this as being more of a limitation than diffraction at
Travelelr ranges.  Particularly when the firing ship is accelerating
at up to 6 gees in various directions.


> Imagine a vibration enough to cause 1 milliradian of beam pointing
> error over the firing time.  At 1000km, that might not be that big
> of a deal.

Actually it would; a milliradian at 1000 km is spread of a kilometre.
Yes, at a million kilometres it would be much, much, worse.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 21:06:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug 23 20:06:32 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <20020824115252.J22769@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <B98C451D.6ACFB%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/23/02 6:52 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:

> You seem to be basing your safety estimates of grav vehicles on
> aircraft, which by their nature must expend very large amounts of
> power and maintain very high speeds to stay aloft, and due to their
> very high speeds and low maneuverability must travel very high to
> avoid terrain features and buildings.  Furthermore, the control
> surfaces and propulsive elements are necessarily large, and redundant
> units add a great cost in performance.

I was thinking more in terms of complexity comparable to an aircraft,
particularly at first introduction.  I agree that once the technology is
mature, safe and reliable, that grav will replace wheeled vehicles.  I just
don't thing that is happens overnight.  I suspect that grav vehicles don't
become the dominant mode of transportation until several TLs after their
introduction.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 21:10:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug 23 20:10:55 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <20020824122101.L22769@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <B98C461A.6ACFC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/23/02 7:21 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:

> Tod Glenn wrote:
>> Maybe.  If your enemy has the same acceleration, about all you can do is
>> maintain range.  Hopefully, you can jump.  How good an idea that is with
>> stuff going off around you is another matter.
>=20
> It was jumping I was thinking of.  If you can't expect to last another
> round to jump out, you're toast anyway so you may as well try.
>=20
> In most cases I've seen, either you're dead already or you can jump
> out safely.  The exceptions are almost all inside 100D limits.
>=20

Does canon make any reference to jumping while under fire? Obviously, a
nearby mass can effect a jump.  What about discharges of energy, etc?

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 21:17:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug 23 20:17:09 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <B98C451D.6ACFB%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020824115252.J22769@freeman.little-possums.net> <B98C451D.6ACFB%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020824131407.P22769@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> I agree that once the technology is mature, safe and reliable, that
> grav will replace wheeled vehicles.  I just don't thing that is
> happens overnight.

Oh, I agree.  I just think that for the particular case of the
Imperium, grav technology is (now) mature, safe, and reliable.  Hence
it replaces larger wheeled vehicles even on low-tech worlds, as long
as they do at least a moderate amount of trade with higher-tech ones.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 21:21:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug 23 20:21:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <20020824123637.M22769@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <B98C4980.6AD00%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/23/02 7:36 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:

> Tod Glenn wrote:
>> Rather than using the transportation model, it sounds like they are
>> using the computer model (i.e. vehicle get cheaper and more
>> powerful).
>=20
> No, it's just that a TL9 contragrav unit fitted to a TL7 car body is
> pretty cheap in terms of purchasing power of TL10 citizens.  Except
> for the motive system, the 2000 CrImp model I mentioned is just a
> modern low-cost compact car -- no better, no worse.  The 1000 CrImp
> model is what you might see if there was little in the way of safety
> regulations.
>=20
> What you're interpreting as the vehicle getting cheaper and more
> powerful is mostly just the increased purchasing power of a TL10 CrImp
> compared to a TL7 local credit.

But my point is that the cost of transportation seem fairly fixed as a
percent of income, at least since the advent of mass production.  The media=
n
car has not gotten relatively less expensive when compared to median income=
.
Certainly, it has more features, but even a basic model is still relatively
'expensive'.

Say a mythical average automobile costs around $15,000.  Someone posted tha=
t
the median income in the US is about $30,000 a year.  So the average
automobile cost represents about half a years income.  I suspect that this
percentage has been relatively stable for quite some time (I may be wrong,
I'd have to do some research).

What I was trying to suggest was that I suspect that the grav vehicle will
be the same.  At some point the price will stabilize and the cost will be
close to some fixed percentage of income.  The person at TL 10 (or whatever=
)
will still be paying about 50% of his annual income for his conveyance, but
it will be a grav vehicle and have different and 'better' features.  I don'=
t
expect the price of the vehicle to plummet just because TL goes up.

I note that this trend of price stabilization seem to happen with many
durable goods.  Refrigerators, machine tools, firearms and a whole host of
other items are not getting dramatically cheaper as TL advances.  And while
things like PCs have come down in price, there certainly seems to be a
limit.

Perhaps someone with some economics background would care to comment?  I'm
going way outside of my areas of expertise here.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 21:25:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Aug 23 20:25:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Paging Phill Webb
Message-ID: <3D66FB44.2E2BD137@mail.cswnet.com>

The Aramis Navy update.

Its done in paper form; all using HGS.

All I have to do is type it up.

I won't post the ship USP's to the TML; theres to dang many of them.
However, most of these are CT/MT stuff done with HGS, so they'll be easy
to recognize. Lewis' entry I just posted a little while ago.

Hang on, it'll be done in a few days, baring medical mishap.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 21:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug 23 20:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <20020824131407.P22769@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <B98C4C97.6AD0A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/23/02 8:14 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:

> Tod Glenn wrote:
>> I agree that once the technology is mature, safe and reliable, that
>> grav will replace wheeled vehicles.  I just don't thing that is
>> happens overnight.
>=20
> Oh, I agree.  I just think that for the particular case of the
> Imperium, grav technology is (now) mature, safe, and reliable.  Hence
> it replaces larger wheeled vehicles even on low-tech worlds, as long
> as they do at least a moderate amount of trade with higher-tech ones.

Well, assuming that the low tech worlds have anything the high tech one's
want, why would you have any wheeled vehicles at all.  Particularly if you
can buy them cheaper and get a safer more capable vehicle.  Certainly, such
trade would have a chilling effect on the native transportation industry.

In this model, it would seem that any low tech world with materials of
interest to a nearby world would become a veritable colony of that world.
There would be no need to develop any local industry that would be in
competition with off world imports.  Of course, then there wouldn't be any
money to but all that shiny new stuff from off world, because there wouldn'=
t
be any decent jobs for the locals, except maybe in the mines or making
trinkets.  Off world technology would probably be used in the mine too,
eliminating the need to all but a few locals.

And of course, the Imperium is there to maintain free trade, preventing the
adoption of any tariffs.  Ug!

No I see why third world countries are so pissed off.  And why they are
ultimately screwed.

Until the people finally rise up and....

Whoa.  There's a segue.  From grav vehicles to revolution.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 21:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Aug 23 20:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Non-prevalence of grav vehicles on lower tech worlds...
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNEEOMEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <3D66FF85.3A8720DC@mindspring.com>

Terry Carlino wrote:
> 
> As with RL discussions of public transportation the total cost of use is
> being completely ignored here. The amount of money a society must pay for
> roads could be used to subsidize the purchase of grav vehicles, which would
> make them dirt cheap.
> 
> Does anyone have any idea how much a mile of road costs, not to mention
> traffic control, lighting, etc.?

Why yes in fact. Its approximately 1 million dollars per lane/mile or
$600/lane/meter. Bridges, clover leafs, etc... carry much higher costs.
A four lane highway connecting two places 100 miles apart would cost
$400 million not including intersections, turn lanes, medians (more a
land cost although landscaping isn't cheap) I could easily see the cost
for such a road topping $1 billion. That's what 50 thousand 20 kCr grav
vehicles. Cut out  a few thousand and have central control. I think
buying grav vehicles would be the way to go. Pave just the parking
areas.
> 
> 

-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
A man needs a mistress if only to break the monogamy
                                     -Unknown

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 21:42:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug 23 20:42:14 2002
Subject: [TML] Beam jitter
Message-ID: <200208240339.NLB00464@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

A mirror system for a ship laser weapon would have to 
accomplish rapid, accurate movement to a) make it possible to 
use the laser to slew and hit multiple targets such as 
incoming missiles (not all lasers might be capable of doing 
this sort of work), and b) to make it possible to keep the 
spot on a target while the laser does its work.

If you consider how far a target may move during a beam dwell 
time of 0.2 seconds...  the mirror has to move during the 
entire 0.2 second shot, and very precisely.

It has to do this without vibration.  To appreciate the 
magnitude of this problem, consider a vibration that 
displaces one edge of a 10 meter mirror by 1 micrometer 
(that's 40 millionths of an inch) would cause the laser to 
move one full spot diameter on the target. We're assuming a 
20cm spot on a target only 1000km away, or an angular motion 
of 200 nanoradians.  This small vibration will cut the 
effective brightness in half.  Allowable jitter therefore is 
in the 20 nanoradian, or one part in 50 million, range.  
Since any servo system would undoubtably exceed this jitter 
limit immediately after slewing to a new target, there would 
be a resettling time before effective target heating could 
begin.  This resettling time must be added to allowable beam 
steering time.

Accordingly, the demands on beam steering and precision go up 
with the desired effective range.

You will note that if there are a lot of incoming missiles, 
regardless of the ability to fire multiple shots, the thing 
that makes Shot A go to a different area of space than Shot B 
accurately is a beam steering correction.  Laser beams are 
not bullets out of a machinegun.  And beam steering 
correction by default introduces jitter.

One other note:  Spot size is inversely proportional to 
mirror diameter. Laser brightness, the primary indicator of 
weapon lethality, increases as the square of mirror 
diameter.  Thus, doubling the mirror size from 2 meters to 4 
meters will increase laser brightness by a factor of 4.  All 
lasers except x-ray lasers will require large mirrors in 
order to focus beams at a small spot.  Interestingly, x-ray 
lasers have no real role for use in an Earth-like atmosphere -
 their range is extremely limited within even massive power 
limits.  The nuclear bomb-pumped x-ray laser was calculated 
to have a penetration of tens of meters in atmosphere.  The 
ideal wavelength for minimal loss in the atmosphere is 1.3 
microns (less than 1 percent loss from low Earth orbit to a 
ground target assuming there are no clouds).

If you know your enemy is using x-ray lasers, all you have to 
do is enter the atmosphere.  On the other hand, if they are 
using lasers intended for ground use, get into space, and 
stay more than 10,000km away (just to be safe).
________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 21:46:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug 23 20:46:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
Message-ID: <200208240343.NLB00641@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>Obviously, a nearby mass can effect a jump.  What about 
>discharges of energy, etc?

I can't imagine that a megaton range nuclear detonation could 
help you on your way.  A 5 megaton detonation within a few 
miles is already going to do the same type of damage as 
multiple particle accelerator hits.  Make that 20 or 30 
detonations in rapid succession a little further away, and I 
think the pilot is going to try and time hitting the jump 
switch between detonations.
________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 22:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug 23 21:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Kill assessment of space targets
Message-ID: <200208240405.NLB01650@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Great - we can spot a flea on Ganymede from our lounge chair 
on Miami Beach using the sensors.  Some of these sensor rules 
seem a stretch, but OK, we'll assume you can see everything 
that well.

How do we do kill assessment?  Most of the combat rules let 
you know "exactly" what's damaged.  And if the GM just tells 
you, you have the damage assessment capability of the Star 
Trek ships.

I don't think it's that easy.  Visual examination by 
telescope may tell you something, but things like nearby 
nuclear blasts and particle beam hits and meson guns do 
internal hits that can't be seen from the outside.  The ship 
is not transparent.

I could almost see someone pulling that stunt seen in one of 
those Babylon 5 shows - taking damage yes, but playing possum 
and laying a nuclear mine in the debris field near your 
ship.  And waiting for the curious to come close...
________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 22:10:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Fri Aug 23 21:10:38 2002
Subject: [TML] About the hazards of being in the infantry
In-Reply-To: <200208231818.NKH05303@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020823210447.009fe9c0@mindspring.com>

At 02:18 PM 8/23/02 -0400, you wrote:

*snip*

>We saw the site up close later, and there weren't even any
>wounded.  Since all of the vehicles in the area were
>thrashed, I don't think anyone got away.

The Iraqi army turned out to be of much poorer quality that we 
anticipated.  There are ways to defend against a CB attack.

Plus, an infantry many carries 240 rounds of ammo, a MLRS 12.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 22:21:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ken Murphy)
Date: Fri Aug 23 21:21:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Non-canon weapon tech
Message-ID: <F229S2tR6j5Brrd58ir000010d2@hotmail.com>

John wonders at soem apparently pretty non-canon weapon tech:
>I've always wondered why the nuclear-bomb pumped X-ray laser
>never made it into CT (even after the fact) while it made it
>into other things such as Traveller 2300.  I keep reading
>stuff from Sandia and LLNL that say that the concept is
>perfectly valid (they got things to lase in underground
>nuclear tests).  I can't see why such a weapon would not be
>at least as powerful as any spinal mount weapon, and would
>bring us around to the idea of an extremely dangerous mine or
>torpedo that could attack at the edge of defensive beam
>weapon range.
>
>Detonation lasers mounted on high endurance missiles with a
>burst speed capability and detonation submunitions for
>defense seem to be very non-Traveller.  But I like them.

   Feel up to knocking out some CT/MT stats for  these things, John? I know 
I'm always intewrested in alternate weapon tech in Traveller, and mayeb 
others might as well.
   Always happy to cadge someone else's ideas :)
  -Ken-


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 22:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Aug 23 21:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Enigma intercepts and en/decryption
Message-ID: <F94QVjp3b6uIU1Gj03o0000003d@hotmail.com>

From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)

In-Reply-To: <3D668205.5080903@pharmacy.arizona.edu> Just a minor 
correction. At NO time during the war were Enigma intercepts anything like 
'real time'.

     "Correct."


My dear Doctor,

      You and Mr. Johnson are, of course, correct.  The steam powered 
Whipsnadian wetware slipped a cog or three when composing the original 
message.  I meant to type "real-time Huff-Duff and Enigma decrypts provided 
from ashore" but fumbled the entire passage.
     The author of the book about the Battle of the North Cape continually 
drove home the point that, despite the Brits nearly knowing Scharnhorst's 
every move, the warship still nearly got away.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 22:36:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug 23 21:36:06 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <B98C27B7.6ACC4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B98C27B7.6ACC4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m38z2wnabw.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> 
> Still, you'd have to have at least a couple of systems that almost
> never fail: Gravitics and power.

Perhaps more realistically, they fail gracefully.  That is, rather
than running forever (unrealistic) or failing catastrophically
(undesirable), the gravitics slowly lose power, the car cannot ascend
as high, and eventually it's grounded.  Much like an engine losing
power.

Perhaps a grav car's gravitic unit is not an actual unit, but an array
of many units.  One or two or maybe even a dozen may fail, but the
rest are able to pick up some of the slack and keep the car from
falling out of the air.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Upgrading your OS and not needing to upgrade your hardware is a great
feeling.                                             --Patrick Mullen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 22:39:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Fri Aug 23 21:39:20 2002
Subject: Subject: Re: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1030135501.9084.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPGEKMENAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Also those ships fitted with Electro Magnetic Masks (EMM) must have, by
definition some way of altering emissions.

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Anthony Jackson
Sent: Saturday, 24 August 2002 4:45 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Cc: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [TML] Submarines and Battleships


Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:

>      That used to be my take too, but I've been wrestling with the issue
of
>  powerplants lately.  I'd love some sort of IR dampening, but can't find
> hide  nor hair of it in canon (which DOESN'T mean it can't be done, MTU,
> YTU, it's  all good!)

Sure there is.  It's called a black globe generator.
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 22:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Aug 23 21:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] District 268, fleets and the type T cruiser
Message-ID: <F181R4tIefSzHSza11Y000000c9@hotmail.com>

From: alan spik <babyduck@mindspring.com>

     "I like this also and since you used my system I'm opting for 
ComSysGlis."


Mr. Spik,

     I'm glad someone can get some use out of it.  Please keep in mind that 
ComSysGlis or ComCruSol or NimComPoopPac are all administrative groupings 
only.  They only handle the specific training, supply, and repair needs of 
their respective portion of the IN.  Ships are still assigned to fleets and 
squadrons in order to fight.
     Fleets and, to a lesser extent, squadrons are permanent entities.  They 
exist no matter which specific ships are currently assigned to them.  ForEx: 
SurfPac was responsible for my old ship, USS CALIFORNIA, all the time.  When 
the Pigboat was moored in Alameda or messing around off the US West Coast, 
she was part of the Third Fleet.  When she deployed to the western Pacific, 
she became part of the Seventh Fleet.  In the Indian Ocean, she belonged to 
the Fifth Fleet.  Same ship, same supply and training organization, but 
different fleets depending on where she was.
     IMTU, the subsector fleets are permanent, but the ships assigned to 
them are not.  BatRon XYZ of the 214th Fleet doesn't deploy one BB short 
while INS THUNDERING WHIPSNADE is the yards for a microbrewery refit.  
BatRon XYZ will deploy with her planned complement of vessels because 
ComBatGlis simply reassigns another BB.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 23:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 23 22:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
Message-ID: <50.10747e6d.2a987879@cs.com>

In a message dated 8/23/02 1:06:57 PM Central Daylight Time, 
gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu writes: 
> It's a discussion this list has been over before, as I recall.  The
> main thrust of the argument was that a ship with a fusion power plant
> of the output we see in Traveller has to radiate that energy or melt, and
> that amount of radiation should be easy to spot.  By not generating any
> power, the asteroid is in a stealth mode no starship can match.
> 
>     Gregory Kettler
Unless the ship shuts down it's reactor and operates on limited battery 
power, very much like a deisel-electric submarine.

Doug Grimes


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 23:53:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug 23 22:53:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <B98C4980.6AD00%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020824123637.M22769@freeman.little-possums.net> <B98C4980.6AD00%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020824155011.A23779@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> But my point is that the cost of transportation seem fairly fixed as
> a percent of income, at least since the advent of mass production.

Yes, so the low-end models will be grav cars largely built at TL5-8
with imported grav units.  They won't be sold on high-tech worlds for
two reasons:

1) There would be little to no demand for such primitive bare-bones
designs lacking such essential features as neural induction controls,
inertial compensation, and ability to do your routine shopping for
you.  (Substitute features as appropriate for YTU and various worlds)

2) A TL7 design built with TL10 labour and equipment costs more than a
TL7 design built with TL7 labour and equipment, and importing a whole
vehicle is much more expensive than importing just the grav units.

I agree that a TL10 world is likely to have grav vehicles costing more
like 20 kCr and packed with (by current standards) a ridiculous amount
of expensive luxuries.


On a personal note, my current car cost me the equivalent of US$450
and has everything I want in a personal transportation device.  It was
not new, of course.  As far as I can tell, they don't even make cars
without air conditioning any more.  Once upon a time, an AM/FM radio
would have been an optional extra.  Now most of the *low-end* models
come with a multi-speaker digital tuner and CD stacker.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 23 23:57:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matt Ashley)
Date: Fri Aug 23 22:57:04 2002
Subject: [TML] USN vs USSR Navies and Spoofing Trav Sensors
In-Reply-To: <20020824021502.16439.4020.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020824055601.18032.qmail@web12302.mail.yahoo.com>

> Message: 7
> Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 18:00:29 -0700
> Subject: Re: [TML] USS America - Naval crew accommodation
> From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
> To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> on 8/23/02 5:23 PM, Terry Carlino at carlino@cox.net wrote:
> 
> > I never considered being in the navy particularly hazardous. For much of =
> my
> > career the U.S. Navy had between 300 and 600 active duty navy vessels. In
> > the entire 20 years it lost 2 submarines and exactly 0 surface vessels. T=
> wo
> > ships were attacked by hostiles, neither by another ship.
> 
> I think the assumption should have included the phrase "in time of war",
> though certainly the vulnerability of an infantryman is much more than that
> of a sailor.  Any yahoo with a rifle is a hazard to a rifleman.  But as you
> say, only perhaps the Soviet navy was a credible threat to a US battlegroup=

The Soviets were scary.  Wake homing torpedoes, mach 3, multiple ton missles diving at you at a 70
deg. inclination.  Not pretty.  I would not have liked to been in the CVBG's that charged up north
of Norway!

As for traveller spoofing.  You could have your decoys generate heat/power that would mimic the
emissions of a larger ship to make it show any king of mass/acceleration/shape profile you wanted.
 At multiple light second distances the opposing sides may see each other but it would be hard to
separate the wheat from the chaff.

If you have the larger force it may very well be to your advantage to jump into the system fairly
far out, deploy multiple decoys active and passive sensor drones well ahead of your task force. 
You might even go active with your main vessels since they are going to see you anyway from your
heat signature.

With a well screened force, even a powered down, stealthy ship is going to have a hard time
getting close even if you run right over it (if you don't get close to it it can float around all
it wants without power, once it powers up you can see it and shoot it).  Since you can go ahead
and pound away with your active systems only a ship lying doggo behind an asteroid will be able to
hide from you.

If you postulate that you can't mask your power, thermal emissions and jump flash in space combat
then there really is no need for major fleet elements to try to hide.  If you can mask then it
does make sense to impose emissions control.

If you were really nasty and had the time you could seed a system before the war with passive
sensor drones.  When you jump in you can activate them via broadcast and use maser comms to
communicate with them (tell them where to point to a relay ship in your fleet that deliberately
does not manuever).  While waiting for the war the drones are disguised to look like a small
asteroid.  You could trickle charge a battery with a small solar array occasionally.

These drones could even carry a small fusion plant and go active for you.  Or even blow up a big
mylar balloon, fire up the blip enhancer and look like a couple of 10kdt cruisers dropping their
black globes and bearing down on the main world...

You could drive the defenders so crazy with false alarms that your fleet might get really close.

Why not jump in with six different fleets as simultaneously as possible...  Five of the fleets are
decoys (drones, small ships with big sensors and emmitters to look like that Tigress, a few
cruisers to discourage the merely curious).  Put enough screening ships with each fleet to keep
enemy small stuff far enough away that he can't get close enough to see through my disguise.

Which "fleet" do you move against?  You could pull back to the 100 diameter limit and try to hold
me off.  You still have 6 separate fleets closing on the mainworld, do you spread out?  Even close
to the mainworld you are spread out a bit more than you would against one big force.

Now about this time my black globed intruder squadron unglobes and attempts to waste your high
port and cruisers (waste of time going after the big boys with their heavier meson screens).

Not fun for the defender!

Matt

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 00:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug 23 23:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <B98C4C97.6AD0A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020824131407.P22769@freeman.little-possums.net> <B98C4C97.6AD0A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020824160909.B23779@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> Well, assuming that the low tech worlds have anything the high tech
> one's want, why would you have any wheeled vehicles at all.

Small wheeled vehicles are still much cheaper than contragrav.

A 1-ton grav unit costs more than half as much as a 50-ton unit.  That
means that low-tech (i.e. probably poor) worlds will only be able to
afford grav units for large vehicles.  Even factoring in the cost of
roads, small wheeled vehicles are probably more cost-effective than
small grav vehicles.


> Certainly, such trade would have a chilling effect on the native
> transportation industry.

That it would.  Many other industries, too.


[...]
> Off world technology would probably be used in the mine too,
> eliminating the need to all but a few locals.
> 
> And of course, the Imperium is there to maintain free trade, preventing the
> adoption of any tariffs.  Ug!

Yes -- it's really not a very pretty picture for the unfortunate
inhabitants of low-tech worlds.  There will probably be some
industries where local cheap labour makes it worthwhile to do jobs
less expensively than a more capital-intensive high tech method.
However, the Imperium's very low interest rates bring down the cost of
capital investment and make cheap labour less attractive.

This fits well with the credit value conversions between worlds of
different tech level: the low tech worlds *are* dirt-poor by
comparison.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 00:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug 23 23:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Beam jitter
In-Reply-To: <200208240339.NLB00464@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208240339.NLB00464@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020824161758.C23779@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> If you know your enemy is using x-ray lasers, all you have to do is
> enter the atmosphere.

That's probably not as safe as you think -- a powerful x-ray beam
lasting a few milliseconds will penetrate the atmosphere much more
effectively than a single pulse from a bomb-pumped laser, since it
gives the atmosphere time to be blasted out of the way.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 00:22:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Fri Aug 23 23:22:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <B98C2F20.6ACD4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020824104542.G22769@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <B98C2F20.6ACD4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020824074917.4fa89f98.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Fri, 23 Aug 2002 18:27:44 -0700
Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:

> How does the defender measure power output?  And can this be spoofed?

All energy generated on board the ship must be radiated away somehow (or
the ship will melt). What the defender does is measure the amount of
energy radiating from that blip over there.

You could add a disconnected power plant that just generates and
radiates energy without powering anything.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 00:25:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Fri Aug 23 23:25:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <B98C461A.6ACFC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020824122101.L22769@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <B98C461A.6ACFC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020824074422.33af0fec.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Fri, 23 Aug 2002 20:05:47 -0700
Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:

> Does canon make any reference to jumping while under fire? Obviously,
> a nearby mass can effect a jump.  What about discharges of energy,
> etc?

I would say E=mc^2, so even a very large discharge of energy is
equivalent to a small mass, only affecting jump in a very small volume
of space.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 01:08:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug 24 00:08:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <20020824074917.4fa89f98.jenry023@student.liu.se>
References: <20020824104542.G22769@freeman.little-possums.net> <B98C2F20.6ACD4%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <20020824074917.4fa89f98.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20020824170612.A23927@freeman.little-possums.net>

Jens Rydholm wrote:
> You could add a disconnected power plant that just generates and
> radiates energy without powering anything.

A *very big* power plant, if you want it to generate a power output
similar to that of a battleship under high acceleration.

This brings to mind one thing I've noticed: (at least in GURPS) there
is a very big gap between power plants and power cells.

Each kilogram of fusion plant produces up to 0.01 MW, and has a
lifetime energy production of 16 GJ.  This is for large-scale plants,
ignoring the minimum size requirement.  Fusion plants are the best
available in the Imperium in both power and energy density.

Each kilogram of power cell (at TL12) produces up to 120 MW, with a
lifetime energy production of 0.12 GJ.

A gap of four orders of magnitude in power density and two orders of
magnitude in energy density seems like one hell of a lot.  If the
internals of a power cell can handle more than 100 megawatts per
kilogram for at least a second or so, why aren't there any power
plants that can handle more than 0.01 megawatts per kilogram?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 02:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug 24 01:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <20020824170612.A23927@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <B98C8CCB.6AD2B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/24/02 12:06 AM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote=
:

> Jens Rydholm wrote:
>> You could add a disconnected power plant that just generates and
>> radiates energy without powering anything.
>=20
> A *very big* power plant, if you want it to generate a power output
> similar to that of a battleship under high acceleration.

Would it really have to be big?  or just much less 'efficient', so that it
looks like the output of a bigger, high efficiency powerplant.  Heat is
heat, right.  How does the sensor distinguish between a high and a low
efficiency power plant that both emit the same waste heat.  Inswer, it
can't.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 02:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug 24 01:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <20020824160909.B23779@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <B98C8D2A.6AD2C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/23/02 11:09 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote=
:

>=20
> Yes -- it's really not a very pretty picture for the unfortunate
> inhabitants of low-tech worlds.  There will probably be some
> industries where local cheap labour makes it worthwhile to do jobs
> less expensively than a more capital-intensive high tech method.
> However, the Imperium's very low interest rates bring down the cost of
> capital investment and make cheap labour less attractive.
>=20
> This fits well with the credit value conversions between worlds of
> different tech level: the low tech worlds *are* dirt-poor by
> comparison.

We aren't even talking low tech here.  Using the same model, we could be
discussing the TL 12 thrall world of a TL 15 industrial planet.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 03:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat Aug 24 02:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS America - Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020823070340.009f86e0@mindspring.com>
References: <3D6681DC.24948.47BE40@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D67F3C2.7609.402DFE@localhost>

On 23 Aug 2002 at 7:04, Douglas Berry wrote:

> At 06:41 PM 8/23/02 +1200, you wrote:
> >I bet you didn't have to pick up all your worldly belongings every day
> >or two and hump them up hill and down dale and then biuld yourself a
> >new home, either.
> 
> In the rain!  Don't forget, it always rains on the infantry!  Except when 
> it snows.

Mostly true, though we had quite a bit of sunshine - always in 
excessive doses, of course. And then there's the wind. don't forget the 
wind.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 03:03:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat Aug 24 02:03:13 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <F1625NxHDKBW6ZuMmZR00011350@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D67F42B.25396.41C81C@localhost>

On 23 Aug 2002 at 15:36, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

> Mr. Boleyn,
> 
>      Perhaps, but the German admiral onboard signalled ashore he had
> SIGINT (the Germans had a simple version of Huff-Duff) that there
> was a "heavy force" approaching from the southwest, even estimating
> the range relatively accurately. Scharnhorst was heading roughly
> southeast, Duke of York and Jamaica on a rough northeast heading
> were approaching from the southwest, the Germans were still caught
> by starshell with their turrets trained fore and aft. All the British
> observers were amazed.  They had been reading Scharnhorst's
> transmissions in nearly real-time and knew that the Germans were
> aware of their approach. My best guess?  Fatigue, pure and simple. 
> Up for nearly three days and just plain worn out. 

Sounds like it. I didn't know they had intelligence that good.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 03:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sat Aug 24 02:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
References: <3D67F42B.25396.41C81C@localhost>
Message-ID: <006e01c24b50$b111dd00$2418bd50@martinjd>

> > Mr. Boleyn,
> >
> >      Perhaps, but the German admiral onboard signalled ashore he had
> > SIGINT (the Germans had a simple version of Huff-Duff) that there
> > was a "heavy force" approaching from the southwest, even estimating
> > the range relatively accurately. Scharnhorst was heading roughly
> > southeast, Duke of York and Jamaica on a rough northeast heading
> > were approaching from the southwest, the Germans were still caught
> > by starshell with their turrets trained fore and aft. All the British
> > observers were amazed.  They had been reading Scharnhorst's
> > transmissions in nearly real-time and knew that the Germans were
> > aware of their approach. My best guess?  Fatigue, pure and simple.
> > Up for nearly three days and just plain worn out.
>
> Sounds like it. I didn't know they had intelligence that good.

One article I read said that Scharnhorst might well have escaped by just
running for it. She slewed to clear her guns, allowing the pursuers to keep
her in range for longer.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 03:59:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 24 02:59:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
In-Reply-To: <3D5DCB63.2060408@usisp.com>
Message-ID: <20020824.015117.5Z9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail (a week ago), tml@travellercentral.com writes:

>In the real world, there's nothing equivalent to a traveller low-tech world;
>no-one (other than hobbyists) builds TL 4 ships, for example.  What you have
>are poor countries and rich countries.

Ever see footage of the *huge* open pit mine in (I think) Brazil being
worked entirely by *hand*?

*Thousands* of people swarming over it like ants, moving dirt and rock
one basket at a time.

The pit is darn near as big as some of the ones in the US. hundreds of
yards across. 

That's a "low tech" world. So is much of the third world. Especially
once ou get away from the (very few) big cities. There are high tech
*items* available, but for the most part, if they disappeared, it'd be
a major annoyance/inconvenience. No more.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 04:05:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 24 03:05:56 2002
Subject: [TML] Lasers and sound
In-Reply-To: <ML-2.3.1029955965.5262.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <20020824.020214.9R2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail (Wednesday) you write:

> Sort of depends on whether the weapon is designed to deal with
> atmospheric conditions by tunneling a hole through the atmosphere, or
> by firing at a frequency which passes through atmosphere.  The former
> requires a great deal of power and a very narrow beam, which in turn
> probably requires very high frequency (X-ray lasers, etc), the latter
> requires a power level low enough to not turn atmosphere opaque,
> which means it will probably not penetrate any significant armor,
> though you should be able to get power levels capable of burning
> through cloth-type armors and flesh.

There *aren't* asny wavelengths (for lasers) that aren't absorbed by
the atmosphere. Visible light and some IR frequencies aren't absorbed
*much*. But they are absorbed.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 04:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug 24 03:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <B98C8D2A.6AD2C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020824160909.B23779@freeman.little-possums.net> <B98C8D2A.6AD2C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020824204723.A24221@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> We aren't even talking low tech here.  Using the same model, we
> could be discussing the TL 12 thrall world of a TL 15 industrial
> planet.

True, although there are few things available at TL 15 that aren't
available at TL 12.  Certainly less than the difference between TL 9
and TL 7, although the Far Trader economic model doesn't seem to
reflect that.

Maybe there are much more high-tech products than are mentioned in any
published material.  Of course, part of the problem is that Traveller
technology doesn't really exceed GURPS TL 10 in most respects, and
doesn't even meet it in many areas.

Even so, by the Far Trader rules a TTL 15 world has considerably more
economic weight than a TTL 12 one.  About the difference between Japan
and Mexico.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 05:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug 24 04:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <B98C8CCB.6AD2B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020824170612.A23927@freeman.little-possums.net> <B98C8CCB.6AD2B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020824210508.B24221@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> Would it really have to be big?  or just much less 'efficient', so
> that it looks like the output of a bigger, high efficiency
> powerplant.  Heat is heat, right.

Yes, heat is heat.  If you want to generate the same amount of heat as
a battleship power plant, you are going to need a rather large pwoer
source.

A power plant producing 99 GW of useful power at 99% efficiency and
one producing 20 GW of useful power at 20% efficiency both have to
extract and safely control the release of energy from 100 GJ worth of
fuel per second.  You aren't going to get a order of magnitude
improvement in power density that way.

Besides: if you could, there are plenty of other applications I can
think of where it would be desirable to use the less efficient plants.
Fusion fuel isn't exactly scarce, bulky, or expensive.  Power plants
are.  Wasting some of the former to get order-of-magnitude reductions
in the latter is a big win.


>  How does the sensor distinguish between a high and a low efficiency
> power plant that both emit the same waste heat.  Inswer, it can't.

Well, actually you can by looking at the spectrum.  Waste heat from a
more efficient power plant will generally be cooler and hence
predominate in lower-frequency radiation.  Less efficient plants will
leak heat at much higher temperatures.  That's apart from the spectrum
of the maneuvering thruster itself, which you haven't considered yet.
Also, does the decoy radiation have the same directional
characteristics and time variation patterns?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 07:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Sat Aug 24 06:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT,but sort of funny
Message-ID: <20020824131213.85803.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com>

I don't know if this is true or not,
www.top-greetings.com/A.py?R=20020822,0JSK

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 08:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sat Aug 24 07:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <200208231502.NKB04186@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D6839EF.65.BE3EB9@localhost>

On 23 Aug 2002, at 11:02, John T. Kwon wrote:

> There's a bit in Book 4 about the transition from tracked and 
> wheeled vehicles to grav vehicles, but...

> What's the transition for civilians?

On more than a few worlds, I'd imagine that transport for civilians would be 
uncommon in and of itself. Rather they'd rely on a good system of public 
transportation can be more cost effective, less intrusive on the environment 
and (in some cases) give the government much greater control over 
movement.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 08:03:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sat Aug 24 07:03:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Ship design priorities (was: USS North Carolina)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020823070504.009f9910@mindspring.com>
References: <3D668156.28163.45B3D2@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D6839EF.22252.BE3EB9@localhost>

On 23 Aug 2002, at 7:05, Douglas Berry wrote:

> Could we bring this back to Traveller somehow, or move it to TML-chat?

<metallic voice>
By your command
</metallic voice>

All this discussion revolves around the age old paradox of warship design. 
There are three elements: Firepower, protection, habilitality and speed, all 
competiting for design "space", and you can't "excel" in one without 
"neglecting" another. Various different navies have their own traditional 
"mix" of these three characteristics (US emphasis protection then 
firepower then speed, Italians Speed, firepower protection, RN (WW2 era) 
protection, speed, habitability, firepower etc).

So what are the competiting characteristics for a Traveller warship? Under 
HG I think they're: Firepower, protection, agility (manuever drive) and 
mobility (jump drive). And what are the "traditional" mixes used by the 
various states? Do the Zhodani favour agility over protection, The Solomani 
Firepower over agility, The Imperium mobility over firepower etc.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 09:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 24 08:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Non-prevalence of grav vehicles on lower tech worlds...
Message-ID: <105.1acad0a7.2a98fdba@aol.com>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> writes:

>You could, theoretically, even have a wheeled contragrav vehicle that
>merely uses the contragrav to reduce ground pressure for better
>off-road performance.
>

Not even theoretically, as this was the concept behind the GA-ATV, lo these 
many years ago in the pages of JTAS.

Theory to canon in one easy step...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 09:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat Aug 24 08:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Non-prevalence of grav vehicles on lower tech worlds...
In-Reply-To: <200208240208.NKX01982@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEPEEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

>Terry Carlino asks
>>Does anyone have any idea how much a mile of road costs, not
>>to mention traffic control, lighting, etc.?
>
>A mile of eight lane interstate here in Maryland costs about
>5 million dollars.
>________________

That would buy quite a few grav vehicles.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost 

 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 10:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat Aug 24 09:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <B98C4980.6AD00%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNEEPFEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

>on 8/23/02 7:36 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:
>But my point is that the cost of transportation seem fairly fixed as a
>percent of income, at least since the advent of mass production.  The
median
>car has not gotten relatively less expensive when compared to median
income.
>Certainly, it has more features, but even a basic model is still relatively
>'expensive'.
>
>Say a mythical average automobile costs around $15,000.  Someone posted
that
>the median income in the US is about $30,000 a year.  So the average
>automobile cost represents about half a years income.  I suspect that this
>percentage has been relatively stable for quite some time (I may be wrong,
>I'd have to do some research).
>
>What I was trying to suggest was that I suspect that the grav vehicle will
>be the same.  At some point the price will stabilize and the cost will be
>close to some fixed percentage of income.  The person at TL 10 (or
whatever)
>will still be paying about 50% of his annual income for his conveyance, but
>it will be a grav vehicle and have different and 'better' features.  I
don't
>expect the price of the vehicle to plummet just because TL goes up.
>
>I note that this trend of price stabilization seem to happen with many
>durable goods.  Refrigerators, machine tools, firearms and a whole host of
>other items are not getting dramatically cheaper as TL advances.  And while
>things like PCs have come down in price, there certainly seems to be a
>limit.
>
>Perhaps someone with some economics background would care to comment?  I'm
>going way outside of my areas of expertise here.

I don't have an economics background, but I do have a history background and
am old enough to remember the bounces of economic trends, among the
so-called middle class in the U.S.

Anecdotally I can tell you that my father could afford a new car every year
or so. He tended to finance one over about 24 months. He always bought a new
car and had a median income. The fathers of my friends, from a working
neighborhood in Chicago had the same buying patterns, as I recall.

To buy a new car now requires most people to finance the purchase over at
least 60 months. To me this trend is very telling.

Also anecdotally I can remember a time back in the 1980's when I had a
conversation with a member of management about the relative slowness of the
increase of the rate of pay of people in my job. His replay was that pay had
doubled since his entry to the field ten years ago. Then I asked him how
much the cost of housing had gone up in the same period. I turned out to be
about 5 times. The price of cars? About 7 times.  What we have here is an
erosion in purchasing power. I would maintain that the cost of owning a car
has gone up, as well as the price of the car.

I believe personally that this is a result of the political situation in the
United States rather than a technical matter. As tech levels increase the
cost of manufactured goods should go down, because less of the manufacturing
will be man-power intensive. This will reduce the cost. The necessary trend
to make this a reality is that the relatively unskilled labor from the
manufacturing sector must become trained and join the skilled labor market.
If this fails to happen then and they simple shift to the unskilled service
market then they will be unable to purchase the goods that are more cheaply
manufactured. If they fight the shift to greater automation then the goods
will become even more expensive, as they force companies to pay them more so
that they can buy more goods, which will of course make the goods more
expensive.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 10:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat Aug 24 09:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <B98C27B7.6ACC4%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNIEPFEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

>Your are comparing the reliability of gravity to the reliability of a
>manufactured system.  As I noted, the grav vehicle would have to be at
least
>an order of magnitude more reliable than an auto to be just as safe.  I'm
>not saying that this cannot be achieved, just that it will be an
engineering
>problem that will have to be dealt with.
>
>Think about what that would require.  At the very least, that would mean
>redundant systems, adding to the cost.  Moller has been working on his
>aircar for what, 30 years, and has yet to get it to the point where it's
>safe and reliable enough to even begin thinking about the average user.
>
>I know, the Imperium has been doing it for a thousand years.
>
>Still, you'd have to have at least a couple of systems that almost never
>fail:  Gravitics and power. And they have to do maintain this over their
>entire useful life unless you are going to impose draconian inspection
>requirements or develop a near perfect fault prediction system that will
>render the vehicle unusable if it detects a fault.

You mean like the vehicle inspection systems required by just about every
state in the United States? As a kid I remember seeing old junk cars that
just barely could get around. I almost never see that anymore, and if I do
its often because they've been pulled over by the police for a spot
inspection.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 11:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 24 10:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (armor)
Message-ID: <bfd1cac01452.c01452bfd1ca@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Date: Thursday, August 22, 2002 1:24 am
Subject: Re: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)

> On 21 Aug 2002 at 11:57, Cheng Tseng wrote:
> 
> > Yes, I know.  But the fast battleships were of the dreadnought
> > variety.  I seen people argue the IOWAs were closer to
> > battlecruisers.  But they are still dreadnoughts. 
> 
> Well, while their deck armour was pretty good, their belts were 
> pretty 
> thin for a time when 14"-16" guns were the norm. IMO their good 
> deck 
> armour means they can be called 'fast battleships', but I don't 
> think 
> they'd have done very well in a punch-fest with a better balanced 
> design.

Well, the folks at www.combinedfleet.com (a site primarily dedicated to 
the IJN) would disagree with you.  They rated _Iowa's_ armor as just 
slightly inferior overall to that of _Yamato_ (which only did so well 
because, as Lenin is quoted as saying, "quantity has a quality of its 
own.")

http://64.124.221.191/baddest.htm

ObTrav:  The tradeoffs between armor, speed and armament still exist in 
Traveller.  Sensor array tradeoffs (cost, volume and area) are yet 
another factor in FF&S2....




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 11:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 24 10:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...
Message-ID: <c01732bff697.bff697c01732@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
Date: Thursday, August 22, 2002 1:49 am
Subject: Re: [TML] Crazy is as crazy does, my mama always said...

> Douglas Berry says
> >That's what happens when you are short of weapons.  Wait for 
> >the Germans to kill the guy with the rifle, and then pick it 
> >up.  Or grab a German weapon.
> 
> My dad's Korean War stories involve Chinese human wave 
> charges.  One out of ten Chinese had a weapon, usually a PPSh 
> with one or maybe two magazines (lot of rounds there).  
> Almost all of them had stick grenades, and all without a 
> firearm had a bamboo stick sharpened at one end.
> 
> The idea was to rush the American positions.  If you have 
> 20,000 guys packed into a front 500 meters across, and swarm 
> up a hill, the people on the hill, even if it's a company, 
> will have trouble changing magazines and barrels fast enough.
> 
> He remembers various tactics - stay in your holes while the 
> officers call pre-arranged VT on your own position - run off 
> the hill while the Marine Air puts napalm on your previous 
> position then run back after the flames go out - or firing 
> every weapon you have until you run out of ammo and the guns 
> jam and you all run like hell, leaving the Turkish unit 
> behind.

You forgot to mention fougasse [*].... ;-)

<<snip>>

[*] An extremely effective defensive weapon, fougasse is basically a 
55-gallon fuel drum filled with napalm, a bursting charge and an 
igniter.  In _This Kind of War: A Study In Unpreparedness_, T.R. 
Fehrenbach mentions that it has "extremely salutary effects" on any 
nearby enemy soldiers.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 11:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 24 10:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast
Message-ID: <c056a2c00978.c00978c056a2@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Date: Thursday, August 22, 2002 2:15 am
Subject: Re: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast

<<snip>>
> 
> I think the Goose is one of the prettiest planes ever made.
> 
> (Then, I'm weird, I also think that a C130 is a handsome aircraft...)

The Herky-bird _is_ a handsome aircraft.  The AC-130 Spectre is even 
more so.... ;-)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 12:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug 24 11:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNIEPFEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <B98D1BC7.6AD54%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/24/02 9:03 AM, Terry Carlino at carlino@cox.net wrote:

>=20
> You mean like the vehicle inspection systems required by just about every
> state in the United States? As a kid I remember seeing old junk cars that
> just barely could get around. I almost never see that anymore, and if I d=
o
> its often because they've been pulled over by the police for a spot
> inspection.
>=20

They are still around, oh yes indeed.  It is interesting to note, for
example, that something like 5% of the cars out there (mostly those 'junk
cars') generate something like 80% of the pollution associated with
automobiles.  It would seem like we should be doing something about this,
but then most of these vehicles are owned by the 'poor', and no one wants t=
o
be seen as coming down on the poor.

In most states, it's fairly difficult to get a vehicle declared unsafe.  I
suspect that more liberal financing has had more to do with getting rid of
the real junkers than anything else.  But I still see plenty of them around=
.

As far as vehicle inspections, outside of a few states (California, for
example) I can't think of too many with any teeth.  In Oregon, we require
new cars to pass emission testing, but car older than a certain year are
exempted.  There are no restriction of the condition other than.  A quick
search of the web indicates that some states are about the same, most are
even more liberal.=20
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 12:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sat Aug 24 11:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast
In-Reply-To: <c056a2c00978.c00978c056a2@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020824105904.009f6910@mindspring.com>

At 08:41 PM 8/24/02 +0300, you wrote:
>The Herky-bird _is_ a handsome aircraft.  The AC-130 Spectre is even
>more so.... ;-)

The C-130 is the greatest aircraft ever to leave the face of the Earth.

I've seen them everywhere.  I've always seen them as being similar to the 
Beowulf - so common that you don't even notice them after a while.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 12:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Guy Garnett)
Date: Sat Aug 24 11:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <3D65FD54.30153.2AE769@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020822113421.027af598@mail.qrc.com>
 <3D64BBD0.6996.4C81F9@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020823113656.0269b3e0@mail.qrc.com>

At 05:16 PM 8/22/2002, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>However they had quite a bit of machinery rather closer to the belt
>than was considered wise because there was so much of it.

True; this is an unavoidable compromise due to the width restriction on the 
ship.  It's likely that it would take something like the Montana class (had 
they been built) to solve this restriction.

>their torpedo protection would've okay in the 1920s, but against Japanese 
>torpedos in the 1940s was totally inadequate.

I don't believe that anyone (on the Allied side) had a good idea (before 
the war started) about the capabilities of the Japanese torpedo.  My 
reading indicates that the Iowa's torpedo defenses were designed to defend 
against a projected threat torpedo warhead equivalent to 700lb TNT.  The 
Japanese Long Lances were equivalent to nearly 900lb.  The Iowas were 
supposed to have significantly torpedo protection than the North Carolina 
(which was heavily damaged by such a torpedo, and further improvements were 
to have been made in later ships of the class, had they been completed.


Guy Garnett
                                                                 www.qrc.com
Vice-President, Network Systems                            ggarnett@qrc.com
QRC Division of Macro International Inc.                 (301)-657-3077x125
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Dreams do not vanish so long as people do not abandon them." - L Matsumoto


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 12:32:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug 24 11:32:04 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020824105904.009f6910@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B98D1ED9.6AD5B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/24/02 11:00 AM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:

> At 08:41 PM 8/24/02 +0300, you wrote:
>> The Herky-bird _is_ a handsome aircraft.  The AC-130 Spectre is even
>> more so.... ;-)
>=20
> The C-130 is the greatest aircraft ever to leave the face of the Earth.
>=20
> I've seen them everywhere.  I've always seen them as being similar to the
> Beowulf - so common that you don't even notice them after a while.
>=20

Considering that a lot of C-130 are used to work marginal runways in third
world countries, perhaps it's a apt comparison.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 12:35:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dominic Mooney)
Date: Sat Aug 24 11:35:13 2002
Subject: [TML] [BITS] GenCon UK etc / New release...
Message-ID: <B690832C-B78F-11D6-B301-0003930B3ACE@cybergoths.u-net.com>

BITS - British Isles Traveller Support
http://www.bits.org.uk/

Hi all,

Firstly, apologies for the lack of presence of BITS here for a while, and 
for the lack of change on the website; both Andy and I have been quite 
busy. And had to deal with a change of job, and I've had a number of large 
real world projects come my way at work which has stopped me reading TML 
for about four months (!!). Plus, we've both been busy preparing our new 
release, Power Projection. BITS members should have had the longer version 
of this on the newsletter.


Anyway, this coming week sees GenCon UK:


GENCON UK
------------------

Thursday 29th August to Sunday 1st September, Olympia (London)
BITS will be at Gen Con running Traveller participation games pretty much 
24-hours-a-day, including all Traveller genres, our Traveller skirmish 
game At Close Quarters and our Traveller space battle game Power 
Projection (based on the popular Full Thrust starship combat rules).

As ever, if any UK based people (BITS members or not) want to help us out,
  we'd appreciate it. Please email Andy at bits@bits.org.uk with details of 
your availablity if you can help.

POWER PROJECTION - Traveller Starship Battles in the Far Future.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Power Projection is BITS name for its Traveller Starship Combat Game, 
previously under the working title 'Traveller Full Thrust'.

Power Projection has been a long time in coming - we started working on 
this back in 1998, at what was then called EuroGenCon! What is it? A 
Traveller Space combat game, designed to be used on a table top and aimed 
at capital ship engagements. The rules are based upon the popular Full 
Thrust system, modified to reflect the Traveller universe and the feel of 
High Guard. The movement system is a simple, intuitive vector based one.

Our plan is to release the Lite version of the rules at GenCon UK, then 
the full version of the rules at Dragonmeet. We'll have a variety of 
offers and demos at both...

Power Projection Lite - this provides the core rules for movement and 
combat with non-spinal weapons, plus a selection of Zhodani and Imperial 
ship designs, plus counters for Sand Clouds, Nuclear Detonations, ships 
and vector positions. Page count to be confirmed (around 24-36 we think); 
format will be A4 like the Traveller Bibliography. The feel of escort 
duels is very different to those of cruisers and other capital ships - a 
battle of maneuvre and action with small ships unable to take significant 
damage. A battle between eggshells armed with bazookas, to paraphrase 
Frank Chadwick's comments in 2300's Star Cruiser game.

Power Projection (Full Edition) - this has conversion rules for High Guard 
designs, Spinals, Campaign rules, more ships, logistics etc...

-----------

Anyway, the release at GenCon is looking very likely - the graphics are 
all completed with the exception of a few ship status displays (thanks to 
Paul Lesack and Jesse) and the counter sheet being tweaked, and the text 
only needs a couple of changes. The cover is already at the printer.... 
this is our first book built in Quark, rather than Word!

Anyway, must dash as I need to get back on with the writing to ensure we 
get this out. If anyone has questions, please copy ones about GenCon Uk to 
Andy's address (bits@bits.org.uk) and Power Projection ones to me 
(dom@cybergoths.u-net.com) as we are both unlikely to read too much of TML 
this week!

Cheers,

Dom



--------dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia,
there's still the notion that the future is
something we build. It doesn't just happen.
You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." Niven/Pournelle/Flynn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 13:01:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Aug 24 12:01:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Enigma intercepts and en/decryption
Message-ID: <F244XifWoqFXfyY0QUU00000285@hotmail.com>

From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

     "Just a minor correction. At NO time during the war were Enigma
intercepts anything like 'real time'."


Mr. Johnson,

     Mea culpa.  I had meant to type "real time Huff-Duff and Enigma 
decrypts" but the weary Whispnadian wetware had a glitch.
     The Admiralty was able to provide Fraser, the British admiral, with 
suitably scrubbed Enigma decrypts within hours after their transmission.  
Both Luftwaffe and Kreigsmarine commands in Norway were very chatty and thus 
very helpful to the other side.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 13:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Aug 24 12:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <F185vWRypCyfVAgK1uh0000353b@hotmail.com>

From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>

     "One article I read said that Scharnhorst might well have escaped by 
just running for it. She slewed to clear her guns, allowing the pursuers to 
keep her in range for longer."


Mr. Dougherty,

     The author I read points this out too.  Scharnhorst did slew from time 
to time to unmask her forward turrets and salvo at her pursuers.  Yet, 
despite that she had still nearly shown Duke of York, Jamaica, and the DDs 
her heels.
     The 14" shell that temporarily knocked out half her boilers was fired 
as part of DoY's last two salvos.  If Scharnhorst had slewed one less 
time...  Of course, history is full of "IFs".
     I've often toyed with the idea of 'porting the Bismarck or Scharnhorst 
stories into Our Olde Game.  Fortunately, a distinct lack of talent and 
ability coupled with a miniscule amount of willpower has saved the hobby 
from my efforts.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 13:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Nick)
Date: Sat Aug 24 12:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 Characters
Message-ID: <01c24ba4$0a6b0220$LocalHost@default>

Hi

I remember somebody was creating a ships crew of T20 characters from the
Light T20 rules, If that person reads this could you send me a copy of the
characters off list so I may use them at GenConUK to run an adventure using
the T20 rules Many thanks in advance

    A Traveller player and referee



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 13:24:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Terry Carlino)
Date: Sat Aug 24 12:24:54 2002
Subject: [TML] USN vs USSR Navies and Spoofing Trav Sensors
In-Reply-To: <20020824055601.18032.qmail@web12302.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNOEPIEEAA.carlino@cox.net>

>As for traveller spoofing.  You could have your decoys generate heat/power
that would mimic the
>emissions of a larger ship to make it show any king of
mass/acceleration/shape profile you wanted.
> At multiple light second distances the opposing sides may see each other
but it would be hard to
>separate the wheat from the chaff.
>
>If you have the larger force it may very well be to your advantage to jump
into the system fairly
>far out, deploy multiple decoys active and passive sensor drones well ahead
of your task force.
>You might even go active with your main vessels since they are going to see
you anyway from your
>heat signature.
>
>With a well screened force, even a powered down, stealthy ship is going to
have a hard time
>getting close even if you run right over it (if you don't get close to it
it can float around all
>it wants without power, once it powers up you can see it and shoot it).
Since you can go ahead
>and pound away with your active systems only a ship lying doggo behind an
asteroid will be able to
>hide from you.
>
>If you postulate that you can't mask your power, thermal emissions and jump
flash in space combat
>then there really is no need for major fleet elements to try to hide.  If
you can mask then it
>does make sense to impose emissions control.

The various rule systems handle sensor rules so differently that it is
really hard to discuss such things in detail. For example many people
postulate huge IR signatures for ships (based on the output power of their
fusion planets.) Unfortunately I don't believe that most of the rule sets
mention this as a vulnerability.  GURPS certainly doesn't. The same goes for
neutrino detections, which I believe was mentioned in DGP's SOM, but does
not exist as a specific device in GURPS.

I tend to use the GURPS sensor rules which divide sensors into three groups
radscanner, active and passive. Radscanners can detect electromagnetic
radiation, they seem to specialize in high energy particles, but must only
be effective in detective neutrinos at short range, because they can only
detect a ships power plant at 0 hex ranges. PESA does thermal imaging,
passive radiation and visual imaging. AESA devices are active and use ladar
and radar.

>
>If you were really nasty and had the time you could seed a system before
the war with passive
>sensor drones.  When you jump in you can activate them via broadcast and
use maser comms to
>communicate with them (tell them where to point to a relay ship in your
fleet that deliberately
>does not manuever).  While waiting for the war the drones are disguised to
look like a small
>asteroid.  You could trickle charge a battery with a small solar array
occasionally.
>
>These drones could even carry a small fusion plant and go active for you.
Or even blow up a big
>mylar balloon, fire up the blip enhancer and look like a couple of 10kdt
cruisers dropping their
>black globes and bearing down on the main world...
>
>You could drive the defenders so crazy with false alarms that your fleet
might get really close.
>
This is an excellent idea, but seems to me to be more likely practiced by
the defending fleet, who will have full access to the system before the
defenders move in. If your fleet looks big enough perhaps the defending
fleet will refuel and move on.


>Why not jump in with six different fleets as simultaneously as possible...
Five of the fleets are
>decoys (drones, small ships with big sensors and emmitters to look like
that Tigress, a few
>cruisers to discourage the merely curious).  Put enough screening ships
with each fleet to keep
>enemy small stuff far enough away that he can't get close enough to see
through my disguise.
>
>Which "fleet" do you move against?  You could pull back to the 100 diameter
limit and try to hold
>me off.  You still have 6 separate fleets closing on the mainworld, do you
spread out?  Even close
>to the mainworld you are spread out a bit more than you would against one
big force.
>
>Now about this time my black globed intruder squadron unglobes and attempts
to waste your high
>port and cruisers (waste of time going after the big boys with their
heavier meson screens).
>
>Not fun for the defender!
>
>Matt

Remember black globes are the exclusive province of the Imperial Navy. They
are not likely to be in the hands of colonial fleets or enemy fleets, not
even the Solomani, at least not for awhile. Eventually the secret will leak,
of course. Good plot there for an adventure.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 13:28:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Aug 24 12:28:17 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <F250HW5uUJvf5whLmZv0001d394@hotmail.com>

From: Guy Garnett <ggarnett@qrc.com>

     "I don't believe that anyone (on the Allied side) had a good idea
(before the war started) about the capabilities of the Japanese
torpedo."


Mr. Garnett,

     When a spent Long Lance was discovered ashore on Guadacanal, IIRC, the 
USN still had trouble believing in them.

     "The Iowas were supposed to have significantly torpedo protection than 
the North Carolina (which was heavily damaged by such a torpedo, and further 
improvements were to have been made in later ships of the class, had they 
been completed."

     There is a Long Lance exhibit aboard North Carolina in Wilmington that 
is well worth a visit.  The BB wasn't even targeted by the IJN submarine 
that fired the torpedo.  North Carolina was operating with Wasp, a CV, and 
both were preparing for an air attack.  Wasp was steaming within her AA 
circle and North Carolina was in hers, SEVERAL MILES AWAY.  The IJN sub 
missed Wasp and the Long Lance burrowed on, eventually striking North 
Carolina instead.  The photos of the damage are impressive.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

ObTrav - Missiles in Our Olde Game are so "vanilla".  A 57th equivalent of a 
Long Lance torpedo or Warsaw Pact "Kitchen" cruise missile would make ship 
designs and combat muc more fun!
>
>
>Guy Garnett
>                                                                 
>www.qrc.com
>Vice-President, Network Systems                            ggarnett@qrc.com
>QRC Division of Macro International Inc.                 (301)-657-3077x125
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Dreams do not vanish so long as people do not abandon them." - L Matsumoto
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml




"It was not until I had attended a few postmortems that I realized that even 
the ugliest human exterior may contain the most beautiful viscera, and able 
to console myself for the facial drabness of my neighbors in omnibuses by 
dissecting them in my imagination."

     J.B.S. Haldane


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 13:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Sat Aug 24 12:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (armor)
Message-ID: <20020824153142.057410b4771f40b8bee386acae37a472.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>> > Yes, I know.  But the fast battleships were of the dreadnought
>> > variety.  I seen people argue the IOWAs were closer to
>> > battlecruisers.  But they are still dreadnoughts. 
>> 
>> Well, while their deck armour was pretty good, their belts were 
>> pretty 
>> thin for a time when 14"-16" guns were the norm. IMO their good 
>> deck 
>> armour means they can be called 'fast battleships', but I don't 
>> think 
>> they'd have done very well in a punch-fest with a better balanced 
>> design.
>
>Well, the folks at www.combinedfleet.com (a site primarily dedicated to 
>the IJN) would disagree with you.  They rated _Iowa's_ armor as just 
>slightly inferior overall to that of _Yamato_ (which only did so well 
>because, as Lenin is quoted as saying, "quantity has a quality of its 
>own.")

Well, Japanese armor plating was nothing to write home about.  The order
that I remember was, from best to worst, British (Class B, I believe.),
German Wotan, American Midvale, Japanese, French, and Italian.


C.T.


"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 13:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Sat Aug 24 12:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
Message-ID: <20020824154155.9815c61df34f49dd9e2818e19aae4142.in@keywest.kennett.net>

>At 05:16 PM 8/22/2002, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>>However they had quite a bit of machinery rather closer to the belt
>>than was considered wise because there was so much of it.
>
>True; this is an unavoidable compromise due to the width restriction on the 
>ship.  It's likely that it would take something like the Montana class (had 
>they been built) to solve this restriction.

Actually only forward from the turret #1 barbette.  Otherwise, the IOWA had
the same protection as a SOUTH DAKOTA.

>>their torpedo protection would've okay in the 1920s, but against Japanese 
>>torpedos in the 1940s was totally inadequate.
>
>I don't believe that anyone (on the Allied side) had a good idea (before 
>the war started) about the capabilities of the Japanese torpedo.  My 

Yep.  The Type 93 and the various offsprings were a complete surprise.  At
its highest speed setting, which was much faster then the American
equivalent, it had considerably longer range then the LOWEST, longest
ranged, speed setting for the American torpedo.

>reading indicates that the Iowa's torpedo defenses were designed to defend 
>against a projected threat torpedo warhead equivalent to 700lb TNT.  The 
>Japanese Long Lances were equivalent to nearly 900lb.  The Iowas were 

Ironically, the YAMATOs could withstand, against the armored "box"
protecting their machine spaces, up to 880 lb of TNT.   That was far more
then any torpedo on the Allied side could carry...until the advent of Torpex
in the middle of the war.

>supposed to have significantly torpedo protection than the North Carolina 
>(which was heavily damaged by such a torpedo, and further improvements were 
>to have been made in later ships of the class, had they been completed.

The IOWAs had the same torpedo protection scheme as the SOUTH DAKOTAs, which
was considered an improvement over the NORTH CAROLINAs.  However, the scheme
was considered somewhat defective and inadequate.  The ILLINOIS and KENTUCKY
would have used an improved, much more effective torpedo protection scheme.

C.T.


"A cynic's job is to point out that some people are like private eyes - they
need to get a clue."
 Cheng Tseng - Graduate in Economics, Brother-in-law....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 13:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Sat Aug 24 12:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (armor)
In-Reply-To: <20020824153142.057410b4771f40b8bee386acae37a472.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <B98D3372.6AD75%listmom@travellercentral.com>

As this is completely unrelated to Traveller and has been for the last week,
please move this thread to tml-chat or off list

Thanks

-- 
listmom@travellercentral.com
for list information see
http://lists.travellercentral.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 15:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 24 14:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <00d101c2497f$76521400$1001a8c0@sauron>
Message-ID: <20020824.135746.8w4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail (Wednesday), tml@travellercentral.com writes:

>> "I'm a thirty second bomb. I'm a thirty second bomb. 29..."
>>
>> I've got an electronic kitchen timer with an LCD display that has 1"
>> tall digits. Might be fun to pre set it to something and when players
>> ask "what do we see?" show that that, *after* hitting the
>> start button.
>> <eg>
>
> For a live game a few years back, my character had brought along what
> was supposed to be the jury-rigged business end of submarine-launched
> nuclear weapon. It just sat in the corner after my character
>
> To simulate this, I had a large rubbish bin sprayed silver-grey with
> military-style codes and some trefoils on it.  Attached to this by
> random cables plugged into the back of it was was a dull grey laptop
> with a single application running full screeen on it.
>
> It had a few standard entry fields labelled "user" and "password" and a
> big red button.
>
> At some point during the game I entered the pasword and pressed the big
> red button, and it started counting down in numbers the size of the
> laptop screen. My character then left the building.
>
> Surprisingly, it took almost quarter of an hour for someone to notice
> it, and a further quarter hour before most people started to realize
> they might be in serious danger.

Luckily, if you aren't a suicide bomber, nukes are "easy" to
neutralize. Slap some C4 on one side and detonate. You'll badly
contaminate the area that the pieces get scattered in, but you won't
get a *nuclear* explosion.

Yes, the shaped charges are apt to go off. But not with the proper
timing. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 15:06:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 24 14:06:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Damned Silly Questions
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020817091336.00a8d100@minn.net>
Message-ID: <20020824.140231.5h9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail (a week ago) you write:

> Is there a feminine form of tomcat? If so, what is it?

A male cat is a tom. I forget what the female is.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 15:10:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 24 14:10:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Damned Silly Questions
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020817194712.007994d0@minn.net>
Message-ID: <20020824.140506.7Y4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail (a week ago) you write:

> At 05:33 PM 8/17/2002 -0700, Kelly St.Clair wrote:
>>Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net> asked:
>>
>>>I need to name a TIGRESS class dreadnought for parts 5 and 6 of Friends in
>>>High Places.
>>>
>>>Is there a feminine form of TOMCAT? If so, what is it?
>>
>>Queen.
>>
>>No, I'm not kidding.
>
> Hmmm...that's not going to work.
>
> There's an in-joke involved here.

Well, you could try "tomasina". Or just "tina". 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 15:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 24 14:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <3D619E69.4090003@usisp.com>
Message-ID: <20020824.142253.3K4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail (Monday) you write:

>Perhaps one of our ex-Navy brethren can enlighten us,
>but I doubt Subs spend 7+ days at a time under the
>surface of the ocean blue.

I suggest you do some reading. Our nuclear subs submerge shortly after
leaving port and don't surface again until they return to port *months*
later.

Surfacing means you can be spotted by radar and satellites. And that
means that the enemy knows where you are for a while. Quite a while if
they get lucky.

So surfacing is done *very* rarely.

They rarely even come to periscope depth, unless they need to send a
message.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 17:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Hamill)
Date: Sat Aug 24 16:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS America - Naval crew accommodation
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020823070340.009f86e0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020824232620.46294.qmail@web21504.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote:
> At 06:41 PM 8/23/02 +1200, you wrote:
> >I bet you didn't have to pick up all your worldly
> belongings every day
> >or two and hump them up hill and down dale and then
> biuld yourself a
> >new home, either.
> 
> In the rain!  Don't forget, it always rains on the
> infantry!  Except when 
> it snows.

SHUDDER
Now why did you have to go and mention snow? I was
stationed at Ft Carson, Co. during my years as one of
the Be All That You Can Be crowd, and the worst memory
of my time there was the dreaded "snow bath". When you
were out on a FTX in the winter you had to wash your
body with what water was available, in this case, the
frozen stuff on the ground. This is why I live in FAR
South Texas. 
(No! No Snow Baths Sergeant! I brought wet wipes!
Twitch)

John Hamill
jwdh71@yahoo.com 

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 17:30:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Aug 24 16:30:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Low Tech in a Hi Tech World (was: warship optimization)
Message-ID: <F124YP7g9y1OLCOQVni0000f5ef@hotmail.com>

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

In mail (a week ago), tml@travellercentral.com writes:  In the real world, 
there's nothing equivalent to a traveller low-tech world; no-one (other than 
hobbyists) builds TL 4 ships, for example.  What you have
are poor countries and rich countries.

     "Ever see footage of the *huge* open pit mine in (I think) Brazil being 
worked entirely by *hand*?"


Mr. Erickson,

     While I agree with the original poster's contention that TL in Our Olde 
Game is best thought of as a measure of wealth, have seen many similar such 
operations during my weary waddles across our globe:

- The cooling pond for a powerplant in the Carribean being dug by hand; the 
workers using picks, mattocks, shovels, and wheelbarrows.
- Bamboo and rush matting used as scaffolding at an industrial construction 
site in Indonesia.  Porters by the thousands carrying supplies where we'd 
use cranes and forklifts.
- A WW2 Liberty freighter run aground on the Pakistani coast, then pulled 
further ashore by thousands with ropes.  The hulk is then GNAWED apart by 
hundreds using hacksaws, sledges, and blowtorchs.  The scrap metal is then 
hauled away in two-wheeled donkey carts.
- Wooden, sail-driven dhows with no engine and no navigational instruments 
beyond a compass (maybe) still being built to carry on INTERNATIONAL TRADE 
between East Africa, South Asia, and the Arabian penninsular.

     Hi tech goods will be found on low tech worlds, but only those the 
locals cannot do with out; medicines, comm gear, GM crops, etc.  There'll be 
GPS recievers aboard local dhows, junks, and clippers, grav freighters 
plying the air between cities without paved roads and sewage systems, and, 
if the Third World is any guide, plenty of modern weapons.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 17:34:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sat Aug 24 16:34:05 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (armor)
In-Reply-To: <B98D3372.6AD75%listmom@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020824153142.057410b4771f40b8bee386acae37a472.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020824183013.00b542c0@minn.net>

At 12:58 PM 8/24/2002 -0700, listmom@travellercentral.com wrote:
>As this is completely unrelated to Traveller and has been for the last week,
>please move this thread to tml-chat or off list
>
>Thanks

This is not exactly an unique problem.

Meanwhile on the Kr-net mailing list...

>Folks:
>
>I've see the future.  If you folks wish to debate such 
>non-aviation topics, kindly find another forum.  This 
>is an airplane only sandbox.  Play nice or I get to play 
>Dr. Unsubscribe...
>
>Mom
>South Soviet Monica, CA
>

Hugs and kisses, 
Les


==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 17:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat Aug 24 16:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020823113656.0269b3e0@mail.qrc.com>
References: <3D65FD54.30153.2AE769@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D68C5D9.2939.6BF619@localhost>

On 23 Aug 2002 at 11:57, Guy Garnett wrote:

> I don't believe that anyone (on the Allied side) had a good idea (before 
> the war started) about the capabilities of the Japanese torpedo.  My 
> reading indicates that the Iowa's torpedo defenses were designed to defend 
> against a projected threat torpedo warhead equivalent to 700lb TNT.  The 
> Japanese Long Lances were equivalent to nearly 900lb.

My source says over 1000 pounds. However 700 lbs of TNT was marginal 
against US torpedos of that time, making their defences a bit on the 
light side, especially given the fineness forward. I realise this was 
unavoidable if they were to obtain the required speed, but the fact 
remains that their protection was overall a bit light for their time. 
Even on their very high displacement there's a cost to that sort of 
extreme speed.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 18:01:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Sat Aug 24 17:01:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Fun with space combat.
In-Reply-To: <F250HW5uUJvf5whLmZv0001d394@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020824190151.00b58a10@minn.net>

At 07:23 PM 8/24/2002 +0000, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>ObTrav - Missiles in Our Olde Game are so "vanilla".  A 57th equivalent of a 
>Long Lance torpedo or Warsaw Pact "Kitchen" cruise missile would make ship 
>designs and combat muc more fun!

The way Steve Gallaci (sp?) handled space combat in "Erma Felna: EDF" was
rather interesting.
Heavy kinetic energy torpedoes controlled by AI computers killing each
other and attacking targeted ships.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 18:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat Aug 24 17:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <F250HW5uUJvf5whLmZv0001d394@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D68C72F.13372.712EBF@localhost>

On 24 Aug 2002 at 19:23, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

> ObTrav - Missiles in Our Olde Game are so "vanilla".  A 57th
> equivalent of a Long Lance torpedo or Warsaw Pact "Kitchen" cruise
> missile would make ship designs and combat muc more fun! 

I built a few big nasty missiles using FF&S1 a while back. They're on 
the BARD pages (hosted by Downport <http://www.downport.com.) 
somewhere.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 18:08:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sat Aug 24 17:08:14 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (armor)
In-Reply-To: <20020824153142.057410b4771f40b8bee386acae37a472.in@keywest.kennett.net>
Message-ID: <3D68C799.209.72CAA1@localhost>

On 24 Aug 2002 at 15:33, Cheng Tseng wrote:
 
> Well, Japanese armor plating was nothing to write home about.  The order
> that I remember was, from best to worst, British (Class B, I believe.),
> German Wotan, American Midvale, Japanese, French, and Italian.

IIRC the Yamotos had to accept a simpler form of face-hardend armour 
because Japan couldn't manufacture anything more advanced in the sizes 
required. It wasn't because they did know how to make anything better.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 20:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sat Aug 24 19:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Knowing and Doing (was Re: USS North...)
Message-ID: <F28TY9FUi7lGh2aoxjw00012b1f@hotmail.com>

From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

     "IIRC the Yamotos had to accept a simpler form of face-hardend armour 
because Japan couldn't manufacture anything more advanced in the sizes 
required. It wasn't because they didn't know how to make anything better."


Mr. Boleyn,

     Ahhh... a way to drag this thread back to Our Olde Game.  Not that I 
haven't enjoyed it, but our Listmom has shown remarkable restraint.
     The passage snipped above points out one of my pet peeves in the whole 
TL fracas; "How can there be low tech worlds after so much 
time/trade/whatever in the Imperium?"
     Everyone seems to forget the awesome gulf between Knowing and Doing.
     The Japanese Empire knew about better armor plate, they knew how to 
make better armor plate, they could even make better armor plate, BUT not in 
the shapes and/or sizes they needed.  In this case, a completely militarized 
society couldn't manage to put the best armor they knew about onboard one of 
their most prestigous vessels.
     If a single-minded military dictatorship couldn't manage to 
build/acquire the best "guns" they knew about, why should it be that other 
societies are assumed to always build/acquire the best "butter"?
     Quite a number of factors must come together for a technology to be 
even partially used, let alone mastered.  Simply marrying know-how with 
money won't do the trick.  If it did, the Third World would be a giant 
Silicon Valley.  Education, percieved needs, desires, and most importantly, 
IMHO, culture all play an important role.
     I strongly believe that most low tech worlds in the Imperium are not 
only poor in the monetary sense, but also suffer from some cultural deficit 
too.  Sure, there will be worlds that have suffered some natural or 
sophont-made calamity that keeps them from progressing, but most worlds are 
low tech because they are both poor and their culture is an impediment.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 20:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sat Aug 24 19:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Source for VERY Cool Minatures!
Message-ID: <v04020a03b98df5005e6d@[192.168.1.5]>

As odd as the source might sound, I've found a source for very cool
minatures for Sci-Fi games such as Striker.  If you're into such things and
haven't seen them yet, check out Mechwarrior: Dark Age from WizKids Games
(Mage Knight).  http://www.wizkidsgames.com/mwdarkage/

While the Mech's aren't appropriate for Traveller, they've got totally cool
tanks and decent looking infantry!  The only thing they seem to be lacking
is aircraft.

On the downside they're a lot more expensive than previous games from
WizKids, but it's just about worth it.  Unfortunatly the best Mech I got
today was snapped in half :^( and will require drilling and pinning to fix.

			Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|          PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum.         |
|                http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/               |

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 21:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Sat Aug 24 20:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] District 268, fleets and the type T cruiser
In-Reply-To: <200208221134.g7MBY1o11504@excalibur.skynet.be>
Message-ID: <000001c24be4$15687870$0b01a8c0@duck>

> 4. Player's ship :  I need a ship allowing the group reasonnable
> freedom of action, matching the probable opposition but not too
> powerful (especially as far as ship's troops are concerned - the
> 35-strong marine contingent on a Kinunir would wreck the campaign
> PDQ, especially after GT Ground forces). I was thinking about a
> Gazelle-class Close escort or , even better, a type T patrol
> cruiser. While deck plans and background for the CE are
> plentiful, I still have to find detailed info about the type T.
> Isn'it strange, by the way, that so many illustrations show a
> type T in action, but that (to the best of my knowledge), GDW
> never published more detailed info about that naval workhorse ?

For the Type T deckplans, you could always go to
http://www.sovereigngames.com/
and buy yourself a copy for $20.00.  You can get both sets 1 and 2
for $30.00.  I will advice, however, that the plans ain't that great
as it seems to be too small for the ship size.

Or, you could use Paul Schirf's deckplans.  They use the GT hex
grid instead of the 1.5 meter squares, but they are a much nicer
set of plans.

Finally, assuming you want to avoid the hideously broken Gazelle,
you could instead use Fiery variant.  You use the same deckplans
as the Gazelle; just change the outline.  (Check Jesse DeGraf's
website for exterior views.)  The ship is much more conventional
that the Gazelle; no drop tanks, fully streamlined, etc.  Plus,
its HG design actually *works* with HGS!  (Close enough, anyway.)

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 21:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sat Aug 24 20:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Aramis SS Navy Assets IMTU [Vlong]
Message-ID: <3D685022.9126F099@mail.cswnet.com>

Phill Webb wrote once along time ago:
>Hey Dan do you think you could do Aramis as of 1106?
>Pretty please?

All of the following was done with Andrew Moffat-Vallances' HGS and TCS,
including the Imperial Assets, using the meduim navies budget guide. I'm
going to have to redo the Imperial Navy assetes for Lanth subsector
cause I've discovered that Supplement 9, while nice, is very very
screwie. But the colonial/planetary ships I did for Lanth were done with
HGS, so they should be good. If your looking for the Kinunirs IMTU there
all in the Regina subsector. I am short on big scout ships, probably
could've used a couple, but I'll fudge it this time and say there are
some and there in Vargr space. 

Aramis Subsector Naval Assets:

Imperial Navy
I could use some numbers for the batron/crurons listed below, if anyone
wants to join in...

Batron[rider]
1xLurenti Battle Carrier
7xNolikan Battle Rider
200xFT15 Sylean Heavy Fighters
4xPF Sloan Fleet Escorts
1xTF15 mod2 [J4] Fleet Tanker
5x1000dt Large Shuttles [TL15]
5x95dt Imperial Shuttles [TL15]
2xFleet Couriers

Cruron
5xGhalak Armored Cruisers
4xPF Sloan Fleet Escorts
1xTF15 mod2 [J4] Fleet Tanker
5x1000dt Large Shuttles [TL15]
5x95dt Imperial Shuttles [TL15]
2xFleet Couriers

Cruron
5xAtlantic Heavy Cruisers
4xPF Sloan Fleet Escorts
1xTF15 mod2 [J4] Fleet Tanker
5x1000dt Large Shuttles [TL15]
5x95dt Imperial Shuttles [TL15]
2xFleet Couriers

Cruron
5xGionetti Light Cruisers
2xFleet Couriers
5xGazelle Close Escorts

Cruron
5xCJ-15 Jump Cruisers [J6]
6xFleet Couriers

Cruron[carrier]
5xArakoine Strike Cruisers
500xFT27 Heavy Fighters
4xPF Sloan Fleet Escorts
1xTF15 [J3] Fleet Tanker
5x1000dt Large Shuttles [TL15]
5x95dt Imperial Shuttles [TL15]
2xImperial Transports [20000dt]
2xFleet Couriers

Assaultron[partial]
1xLT-15 Assault Carrier [1Mdt]
Carries 100,000 troops, 1000 grav apc's
5x1000dt Large Shuttles [TL15]
5x95dt Imperial Shuttles [TL15]
4xPF Sloan Fleet Escorts
2xFleet Couriers

Legacy Batron
5xVoroshilef Battleships [TL13]
5xGazelle Close Escorts
2xFleet Couriers

Legacy Cruron
6xAdmiral Light Cruisers [TL14]
5xGazelle Close Escorts
2xFleet Couriers

4xImperial Naval Bases, each with the following assets:
6xFleet Couriers
6xChrysanthemum Destroyer Escorts
2xFer-De-Lance Destroyer Escorts
3xImperial Transports [20000dt]
5xT15 Patrol Cruisers
1xPF Sloan Fleet Escort
6xFiery Close Escorts
10xGazelle Close Escorts
5xBlaaskiiri Long Haulers

Independent Units:
1xGionetti Light Cruiser
1xPF Sloan Fleet Escort
6xFiery Close Escorts
20xGazelle Close Escorts
5xAK109 Intelligence Trawlers

Imperial Interstellar Scout Service
3xScout Bases
1xScout Way Station
14xDonesev Survey Scouts
10xXboat Tenders
200xXboats
3xBlaaskiiri Long Haulers
60xTL11 Type S Scouts

Colonial and Planetary Navies:
Corfu 
48 "Old Solomani Patrol Craft" eg UN PKF Patrol Ships
36 Type PL7 Customs Launches
Note: Divide the units above by 6 to figure national fleet size.

Focaline
8 TL10 F-5I Tiger Fighters, 3 TL9 F-5I Tiger Fighters

Lablone
8 TL10 F-5I Tiger Fighters, 2 TL9 F-5I Tiger Fighters

Violante
1 Type PL10 Customs Launch

Carsten
1 Type PL11 Customs Launch

Zila
4 BB7 Battleships, 4CV7 Very Light Carriers, each with 40 TL7 F-5I
Tigers, 5 TypeT7 Patrol Cruisers

Yebab
300xLil Yebab SDBs, 60xLil Yebab SDB Tenders, 16 Yebabian Glory Heavy
SDBs

Nasemin
2 Type PL11 Customs Launches

L'oel D'diou
1 TL11 TypeS Scout, 3 TL11 F-5I Fighters, 1 TL10 F-5I Fighter

Rugbird
4SDB10 Exactors, 1 SDB9 Exactor

Towers
2 Type PL10 Customs Launches

Lewis
The DIE EMPIRE 15dt pirate launch

Aramis
2 TL11 TypeS Scouts, 5 TL11 F-5I Tigers, 2 TL10 F-5I Tigers, 1 Type PL10
Customs Launch

Reacher
2 TL8 F-5I Tigers, 2 PL7 Customs Launches

Junidy Grand Fleet
50 BB-9 Battleships [J1]
15 CV-9 Very Light Carriers [J1] each with
30 TL9 F-5I Tigers [450total] 
500 LLeellyllee Assault Ships [J1]
each carries 500 troops and/or marines
800 Type R Sub Merchants [J1]
500 BC9 Junidy Conquerors [J1]
510 TL9 LLeelluuloly SDB's
93 TL9 PL9 Customs Launches
490 BB8 Battleships
150 Gornshima [BB8] Battleships
80 CV8 Very Light Carriers, each with 40 TL8 F-5I Tigers
718 TL7 PL7 Customs Launches

Some typical ships:
[I didn't want to list all of these, but trust me, I've got the USP's if
you want them. I show these just to prove I've gottem.]

Ship: Voroshilef
Class: Voroshilef
Type: Battle Ship
Architect: Standard [from MT Rebellion]
Tech Level: 13

USP
         BB-S4325G4-053300-68R38-2 MCr 120,057.300 200 KTons
Bat Bear             D     8L16V   Crew: 1792
Bat                  L     CX19W   TL: 13
Cargo: 53,681.000 Emergency Low: 615 Fuel: 80,000.000 EP: 10,000.000
Agility: 2
Shipboard Security Detail: 200 Marines: 200
Craft: 4 x 4T air/raft, 20 x 50T TL13 FT27, 1 50T Launch Tubes
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 2 x Model/7fib Computers
Substitutions: V = 96 W = 148 X = 30 Y = 35 Z = 50

Architects Fee: MCr 1,177.181   Cost in Quantity: MCr 96,513.680
Note: This is the original Voroshilef, not the MT disintegrator version.

Ship: BB9
Class: BB9
Type: Battleship
Architect: Dan Roseberry
Tech Level: 9

USP
         BB-J4167C3-360000-20007-0 MCr 9,824.830 9.99 KTons
Bat Bear             6     K   5   Crew: 158
Bat                  6     K   5   TL: 9
Cargo: 363.500 Fuel: 2,697.300 EP: 699.300 Agility: 6 
Shipboard Security Detail: 10 Marines: 30 Pulse Lasers
Craft: 5 x 20T Lifeboat
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Substitutions: V = 28 W = 34 X = 60 Y = 30 Z = 45

Architects Fee: MCr 97.852   Cost in Quantity: MCr 7,867.789

Ship: UN PKF Patrol Ship
Class: UN PKF Patrol Ship
Type: Patrol Ship
Architect: Dan Roseberry
Tech Level: 8

USP
         PB-0101112-000000-00002-0 MCr 31.675 95 Tons
Bat Bear                       1    Crew: 18
Bat                            1    TL: 8
Cargo: 22.400 Fuel: 1.900 EP: 0.950 Agility: 1 Marines: 15
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops

Architects Fee: MCr 0.317   Cost in Quantity: MCr 25.340

Ship: Gornshima
Class: Gornshima
Type: Battle Ship
Architect: Dan Roseberry
Tech Level: 8

USP
         BB-C4057S3-640000-20006-1 MCr 5,032.120 3.998 KTons
Bat Bear             3     3   3   Crew: 104
Bat                  3     3   3   TL: 8
Cargo: 304.580 Fuel: 279.860 EP: 279.860 Agility: 5 
Shipboard Security Detail: 4 Marines: 33 Pulse Lasers
Craft: 10 x 20T Launches
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 50.321   Cost in Quantity: MCr 4,025.696

Ship: CV7
Class: CV7
Type: Fighter Carrier
Architect: Dan Roseberry
Tech Level: 7

USP
         CV-A1022B3-020000-00006-4 MCr 1,739.460 1.9 KTons
Bat Bear             1         1   Crew: 114
Bat                  1         1   TL: 7
Cargo: 159.000 Fuel: 38.000 EP: 38.000 Agility: 2 Shipboard Security
Detail: 2
Craft: 40 x 15T TL7 F-5 Fighter, 1 15T Launch Tubes
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops

Architects Fee: MCr 8.495   Cost in Quantity: MCr 1,569.568


Ship: F-5 Imperial Tiger
Class: TL 7 F-5 Fighter
Type: Fighter
Architect: Dan Roseberry
Tech Level: 7

USP
         F-0102221-700000-00002-0 MCr 22.250 15 Tons
Bat Bear                      1   Crew: 1
Bat                           1   TL: 7
Cargo: 0.000 Fuel: 1.000 EP: 0.300 Agility: 2
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops

Architects Fee: MCr 0.223   Cost in Quantity: MCr 17.800


Ship: Type T7
Class: Type T7
Type: Patrol Cruiser
Architect: Dan Roseberry
Tech Level: 7

USP  PC-41022B2-720000-00003-0 MCr 332.590 400 Tons
Bat Bear         2         1   Crew: 18
Bat              2         1   TL: 7
Cargo: 64.000 Fuel: 8.000 EP: 8.000 Agility: 2 Marines: 9
Craft: 1 x 30T Ships Boat, 1 x 10T Tracked ATV
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops
Architects Fee: MCr 3.185   Cost in Quantity: MCr 268.898

Ship: TL 7 Ships Boat
Tech Level: 7
USP       QB-0202201-000000-00002-0 MCr 14.100 30 Tons
Bat Bear                        1   Crew: 2
Bat                             1   TL: 7
Cargo: 15.100 Fuel: 1.000 EP: 0.600 Agility: 2
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops

Architects Fee: MCr 0.141   Cost in Quantity: MCr 11.280

Ship: F-5 Imperial Tiger
Class: TL 10 F-5 Fighter
Type: Fighter
Architect: Dan Roseberry
Tech Level: 10

USP
         F-0106621-200000-00002-0 MCr 23.200 15 Tons
Bat Bear                      1   Crew: 1
Bat                           1   TL: 10
Cargo: 0.400 Fuel: 1.000 EP: 0.900 Agility: 6
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops
Architects Fee: MCr 0.232   Cost in Quantity: MCr 18.560
Note: TL 11 F-5 Fighter exactly the same.


Ship: F-5 Imperial Tiger
Class: TL 12 F-5 Fighter
Type: Fighter
Architect: Dan Roseberry
Tech Level: 12

USP
         F-0106621-400000-00002-0 MCr 23.575 15 Tons
Bat Bear                      1   Crew: 1
Bat                           1   TL: 12
Cargo: 0.250 Fuel: 1.000 EP: 0.900 Agility: 6
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops

Architects Fee: MCr 0.236   Cost in Quantity: MCr 18.860

Ship: Junidy Conqueror
Class: BC9 Junidy Conqueror
Type: Battle Cruiser
Architect: Dan Roseberry
Tech Level: 9

USP
         BC-F4136C2-600000-80607-0 MCr 7,474.848 6.041 KTons
Bat Bear                   2 2 2   Crew: 74
Bat                        2 2 2   TL: 9
Cargo: 164.150 Frozen Watch Emergency Low: 20 Fuel: 966.560 EP: 362.460
Agility: 3 Shipboard Security Detail: 10 Marines: 8
Craft: 2 x 20T Lifeboat
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x 1G Maneuver Drive 1 x Jump 1 Drive 1 x Factor 1 Power Plant
2 x Model/3fib Computers 2 x Bridges [1 Flag Bridge, 1 security
station]

Architects Fee: MCr 74.590   Cost in Quantity: MCr 5,983.048

Ship: Nehru
Class: PL10 Customs Launch
Type: Provincial Launch
Architect: Dan Roseberry
Tech Level: 10

USP
         PL-0404401-000000-00002-0 MCr 9.150 10 Tons
Bat Bear                       1   Crew: 6
Bat                            1   TL: 10
Cargo: 1.700 Fuel: 1.000 EP: 0.400 Agility: 4 Marines: 5
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops

Architects Fee: MCr 0.092   Cost in Quantity: MCr 7.320


And I've still got Regina and Lunion to do. Man, this will take forever.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 21:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Sat Aug 24 20:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Source for VERY Cool Minatures!
References: <v04020a03b98df5005e6d@[192.168.1.5]>
Message-ID: <001a01c24bea$dd18b690$7400a8c0@matt>

Zane H. Healy wrote:
:: As odd as the source might sound, I've found a source for very cool
:: minatures for Sci-Fi games such as Striker.  If you're into such
:: things and haven't seen them yet, check out Mechwarrior: Dark Age
:: from WizKids Games (Mage Knight).
:: http://www.wizkidsgames.com/mwdarkage/
::
:: While the Mech's aren't appropriate for Traveller, they've got
:: totally cool tanks and decent looking infantry!  The only thing they
:: seem to be lacking is aircraft.
::
:: On the downside they're a lot more expensive than previous games from
:: WizKids, but it's just about worth it.  Unfortunatly the best Mech I
:: got today was snapped in half :^( and will require drilling and
:: pinning to fix.
::
:: Zane

Miniatures, schminiatures....

Now *THIS* is more like it =)

http://www.wizkidsgames.com/mwdarkage/mw_article.asp?cid=36984&frame=news

ObTrav: Who wants to build themself^H^H^H^.... err their Kids... a scale
replica Beowulf to play in.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 22:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Sat Aug 24 21:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Absent Friends
Message-ID: <010801c24bef$d15d1300$11c5d63f@customer>

I'm catching up with my e-mail so just heard the news.  Bill please send my
condolences to Bari's family.  I've only been a member of the TML for a
short time but I've grown to admire The General and Chaplin Bari work.  I
miss him already.

John Scarlett



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 22:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Sat Aug 24 21:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Missiles in Traveller (was: USS North Carolina)
In-Reply-To: <F250HW5uUJvf5whLmZv0001d394@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020824234522.020e7f90@mail.qrc.com>

At 03:23 PM 8/24/2002, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>ObTrav - Missiles in Our Olde Game are so "vanilla".  A 57th equivalent of 
>a Long Lance torpedo or Warsaw Pact "Kitchen" cruise missile would make 
>ship designs and combat muc more fun!

Yes, I tend to agree with you.  I'd like to see designs (and a combat 
system that supported them) that allowed for a variety of missiles and 
trade-offs between speed, range, "smarts" and destructive power.

I think it would be interesting to have point-defense weapons (for use 
against missiles and fighters), some sort of short-range, high-damage value 
"rocket" equivalent to make fighters at least of some concern to capitol 
ships, and a variety of long range missiles that mimic the effects of torpedos.

Unfortunately, we'd probably have to suspend disbelieve in (or hand wave 
away) some realities of physics.  And I don't even want to think about 
reopening the old kinetic-kill missile debates ...


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 22:49:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 24 21:49:55 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ABBA Cadabra
Message-ID: <17a.d7717a8.2a99bb92@aol.com>

>>Don't _make_ me repost my ABBA Trav filk....
>>
>
>ABBA ... Trav ... filk????

Could it be any worse than TAKE A CHANCE ON ME? Just typing the title means 
that I'll have to go drive it out of my head by playing HOOKED ON A FEELING 
by Blue Swede.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 23:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 24 22:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Longest Hypenated Surname?
Message-ID: <a5.2c7753ae.2a99beae@aol.com>

OK, I need the TML's help on something -- this is for GT: Nobles, so it is 
it's own OBTRAV:

I vaguely remember reading about some twig on the family tree of the British 
Royal family that ended up with a 5-part hypenated surname 
Something-something-paget-Chandos-something . . . I think it may have been in 
Burke's Peerage or some such, but all I really need to know is the current 
record-holder for such monikers.

Can anyone lend me a hand here?

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 23:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug 24 22:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] OT,but sort of funny
In-Reply-To: <20020824131213.85803.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020824131213.85803.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <m3fzx3ledg.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

I figure that the buttons on coat-cuffs are vestigial, from some
theoretical time when cuffs were closed tight.  To tell the truth, I
wish that were the current fashion--although I'll admit the look would
be passing strange.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
There is no place for nationalism in the Church.  All are one in
Christ.      --Blessed Martyr Philoumenos of Jacob's Well, +1979

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 23:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sat Aug 24 22:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] sensors and detection of objects in space
In-Reply-To: <d5.1c43130d.2a982a7f@aol.com>
References: <d5.1c43130d.2a982a7f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <teqgmuknhmbt52ulgo4vklvt9bdp2dmgmj@4ax.com>

On Fri, 23 Aug 2002 20:17:03 EDT, Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> >Any idea what our current technology is?  How long would it take now =
to scan
> >every 20th magnitude object in a globe around the earth?
>
>Reading in the papers recently about the new space probe that broke up =
on=20
>being propelled away from earth orbit, it seems to have taken NASA or =
whoever=20
>at least a day to acquire a visual of the vehicle, even though they knew=
=20
>approximately where to look and even though (I assume) the vehicle was=20
>powered by the usual thorium / thermocouple device and thus was =
radiating=20
>some heat.

Actually, they'd detected the pieces within hours of it not responding
as it should (after all, they were on a known vector at a known
distance).  Confirming that what they were detecting was what they
feared, took the remainder of the day.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 23:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Sat Aug 24 22:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Beam jitter
In-Reply-To: <200208240339.NLB00464@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208240339.NLB00464@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <40rgmu4jtdrth6c5r69edf275ljnho7b24@4ax.com>

On Fri, 23 Aug 2002 23:39:09 -0400, "John T. Kwon"
<jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:

>A mirror system for a ship laser weapon would have to=20
>accomplish rapid, accurate movement to a) make it possible to=20
>use the laser to slew and hit multiple targets such as=20
>incoming missiles (not all lasers might be capable of doing=20
>this sort of work), and b) to make it possible to keep the=20
>spot on a target while the laser does its work.
>
><SNIP>
>
>It has to do this without vibration.  To appreciate the=20
>magnitude of this problem, consider a vibration that=20
>displaces one edge of a 10 meter mirror by 1 micrometer=20
>(that's 40 millionths of an inch) would cause the laser to=20
>move one full spot diameter on the target. We're assuming a=20
>20cm spot on a target only 1000km away, or an angular motion=20
>of 200 nanoradians.  This small vibration will cut the=20
>effective brightness in half.  Allowable jitter therefore is=20
>in the 20 nanoradian, or one part in 50 million, range. =20
>Since any servo system would undoubtably exceed this jitter=20
>limit immediately after slewing to a new target, there would=20
>be a resettling time before effective target heating could=20
>begin.  This resettling time must be added to allowable beam=20
>steering time.

Solution is not to use a single integrated mirror.  Just as radars
have stopped using a single dish to steer their beam and switched to
phased array systems, I would imagine that a Traveller laser weapon
system would instead be aimed with an array of nanomirrors similar in
principle to those used in digital projection systems (TI makes
micro-mirror arrays in the 100 megapixel range).  The individual tiny
mirrors are almost immune to vibration and jitter because they are
almost massless.  Even today's system is capable of very finely
controlled reflection and focusing.  With an array system such as this
on a solid substrate, there may be no particular size limit on the
objective mirror.

Interestingly, with not too much more adjustment, the system can take
advantage of adaptive optics to compensate for atmospheric turbulence
and scattering as is used in today's most modern telescopes.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 24 23:58:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 24 22:58:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Longest Hypenated Surname?
Message-ID: <196.c1c1b99.2a99cbb1@cs.com>

Loren writes: 
> OK, I need the TML's help on something -- this is for GT: Nobles, so it is 
> it's own OBTRAV:
> 
> I vaguely remember reading about some twig on the family tree of the 
> British 
> Royal family that ended up with a 5-part hypenated surname 
> Something-something-paget-Chandos-something . . . I think it may have been 
> in 
> Burke's Peerage or some such, but all I really need to know is the current 
> record-holder for such monikers.
> 
> Can anyone lend me a hand here?
> 
> LKW

Is this it? Temple-Nugent-Brydges-Chandos-Grenville 

Got it from :
http://www.electricscotland.com/webclans/ancient_scottish_families.htm

Admittedly, it's a commercial site, but the sources used seem reliable 
enough.


Doug Grimes


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 00:13:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Sat Aug 24 23:13:03 2002
Subject: [TML] District 268, fleets and the type T cruiser
References: <F260yxX81He52LZghyi000044af@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000601c24bcb$163aed00$2230f7c2@ptrevor>

Mr Whipsnade wrote:
> Having PCs in the "Small Navy" is infinitely more fun then posting
> them to a BatRon.  BBs may show the flag, but very little occurs
> while they're showing it!
> IMTU, the IN mimics RN/USN organization with administrative
> commanders for vessels depending on their types/roles.  Just as
> the USN has a ComSubLant(sic), that is commander of all submarines
> in the Atlantic, the IN will have a ComEscGlis, commander of all
> escorts in the Glisten subsector.

I like the idea of admin commanders and may  integrate  it  IMTU.
But I disagree that there's not much occuring for  PCs  when  BBs
show the flag.  There are many things going on in  and  around  a
busy fleet, especially once the 5FW starts ...

- One mission my PCs had was a covert supply run for agents in  a
  non-aligned system nearby.  The Admiral didn't want  to  divert
  his fleet there if he didn't need  to,  and  a  small  presence
  might have  inflamed  anti-Imperial  sentiment.  So  they  were
  assigned a civilian Type-C and sent on their way  in  disguise.
  Of course they screwed up: mistook a local terrorist group  for
  the agents and handed them the supplies, then had to chase down
  said terrorists before too much damage had been done.  And they
  gave a ride back to the fleet to a funny little Doyne sport who
  was an Imperial courier.

- In another adventure the Intelligence Officer on  their  'home'
  ship (a Ghalalk class Cruiser) was murdered onboard by a  Sword
  Worlds secret agent and the PCs (as the misfit outsiders of the
  crew) were framed.  A basic murder  mystery.  For  the  longest
  time the PCs were convinced the Intelligence Officer's  XO  and
  secret ex-lover was the murderer.  Turned out to be the  Droyne
  courier they'd brought back with them.  (Doh!)

- Then there was the time that their 'home' ship  was  shot  down
  over Mithril.  The PCs had to fight their way  through  several
  decks of  twisted  metal  ...  venting  to  vacuum,  fire  from
  ruptured oxygen lines ... to get to the  lifeboats  before  the
  ship burned up in the atmosphere of Mithril.  So  then  they're
  stuck  on  Mithril's  icy  surface  with  just  the  lifeboat's
  emergency supplies and equipment plus what they managed to grab
  of their own stuff on the way out.  (Think  frenetic  "Posideon
  Adventure"  followed  by  marooned-on-a-desert-island  scenario
  with snow.)  The first part was a bit linear but it was against
  the clock which gave it some tension.

... there are other fun things that can happen in a fleet, YMMV.



Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 00:16:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug 24 23:16:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Knowing and Doing (was Re: USS North...)
In-Reply-To: <F28TY9FUi7lGh2aoxjw00012b1f@hotmail.com>
References: <F28TY9FUi7lGh2aoxjw00012b1f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020825134426.A29839@freeman.little-possums.net>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> In this case, a completely militarized society couldn't manage to
> put the best armor they knew about onboard one of their most
> prestigous vessels.

I'm sure that given a millenium, they could.  Heck, given a few extra
years I sure they could.  No-one's arguing that a TL 6 society is
going to be able to build TL A equipment within a few months.

It becomes a little more difficult to explain why a TL 6 world stays
TL 6 after a few hundred to a thousand years of significant trade with
a large number of worlds having higher tech levels.


>      I strongly believe that most low tech worlds in the Imperium
> are not only poor in the monetary sense, but also suffer from some
> cultural deficit too.

Not unlikely.  However, even cultures change greatly over the
timescales of the Third Imperium.  The state where I live was
inhabited by people who weren't even that great at making fire just
200 years ago.  The Imperium is more than five times as old as that!

How many currently poor nations do you think will remain similar to
their current society over the whole of the next 1100 years?


Maybe systems in Traveller behave like the systems in Vinge's Slow
Zone (e.g. in the novel "A Deepness in the Sky").  This would give a
wide distribution of tech levels as seen in Traveller charts.  It
wouldn't make anywhere near as much sense with Traveller's FTL though,
and isn't supported by any published material.

Or maybe almost all of the worlds of the Imperium really are so much
more conservative than our own society that the pressure on technology
increase and cultural changes are actively and effectively opposed in
most systems for many centuries at a time?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 10:17:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 25 09:17:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Knowing and Doing (was Re: USS North...)
In-Reply-To: <F28TY9FUi7lGh2aoxjw00012b1f@hotmail.com>
References: <F28TY9FUi7lGh2aoxjw00012b1f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020825134426.A29839@freeman.little-possums.net>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> In this case, a completely militarized society couldn't manage to
> put the best armor they knew about onboard one of their most
> prestigous vessels.

I'm sure that given a millenium, they could.  Heck, given a few extra
years I sure they could.  No-one's arguing that a TL 6 society is
going to be able to build TL A equipment within a few months.

It becomes a little more difficult to explain why a TL 6 world stays
TL 6 after a few hundred to a thousand years of significant trade with
a large number of worlds having higher tech levels.


>      I strongly believe that most low tech worlds in the Imperium
> are not only poor in the monetary sense, but also suffer from some
> cultural deficit too.

Not unlikely.  However, even cultures change greatly over the
timescales of the Third Imperium.  The state where I live was
inhabited by people who weren't even that great at making fire just
200 years ago.  The Imperium is more than five times as old as that!

How many currently poor nations do you think will remain similar to
their current society over the whole of the next 1100 years?


Maybe systems in Traveller behave like the systems in Vinge's Slow
Zone (e.g. in the novel "A Deepness in the Sky").  This would give a
wide distribution of tech levels as seen in Traveller charts.  It
wouldn't make anywhere near as much sense with Traveller's FTL though,
and isn't supported by any published material.

Or maybe almost all of the worlds of the Imperium really are so much
more conservative than our own society that the pressure on technology
increase and cultural changes are actively and effectively opposed in
most systems for many centuries at a time?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 10:20:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sun Aug 25 09:20:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
References: <20020824105111.H22769@freeman.little-possums.net> <B98C2ED6.6ACD3%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <20020824123637.M22769@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3D6872B0.6080705@usisp.com>

    Just use flubber.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 10:23:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sun Aug 25 09:23:45 2002
Subject: [TML] A question concerning TML-chat and topics
References: <61.24bb90c1.2a980f80@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D686330.1010004@usisp.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> >    Irritation be damned...am I risking being cast out because  I have 
> >opinions that may be unpopular?
>
>If they didn't throw me out, I don't think they're going to throw you out.
>
    Whew! I had my bags packed just in case.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 13:53:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sun Aug 25 12:53:05 2002
Subject: [TML] A question concerning TML-chat and topics
References: <61.24bb90c1.2a980f80@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D686330.1010004@usisp.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> >    Irritation be damned...am I risking being cast out because  I have 
> >opinions that may be unpopular?
>
>If they didn't throw me out, I don't think they're going to throw you out.
>
    Whew! I had my bags packed just in case.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 13:56:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sun Aug 25 12:56:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNIEOJEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <3D686CCB.8030404@usisp.com>

>
>
>  With a hull
>that has instant chameleon couldn't a vessel reflect almost no light, thus
>reducing it's visual magnitude?
>
    If it is absorbing light and not radiating, then what is it doing 
with that energy
which can be signifcant in the habitable zone?




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 14:00:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sun Aug 25 13:00:01 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: warship optimization in traveller CHALLENGE
References: <20020824.015117.5Z9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3D687803.7050101@usisp.com>

>
>
>
>
>That's a "low tech" world. So is much of the third world. Especially
>once ou get away from the (very few) big cities. There are high tech
>*items* available, but for the most part, if they disappeared, it'd be
>a major annoyance/inconvenience. No more.
>
    In Trav terms...a drop in tech levels from what is commonly available.





From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 14:05:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sun Aug 25 13:05:22 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Prevalence of grav vehicles
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNIEPFEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <3D6879FE.9080602@usisp.com>

>
>
>
>You mean like the vehicle inspection systems required by just about every
>state in the United States? As a kid I remember seeing old junk cars that
>just barely could get around. I almost never see that anymore, and if I do
>its often because they've been pulled over by the police for a spot
>inspection.
>
Is that because of the law, or is it because the old junk heaps are dead 
and gone.
One of the nice things about the older cars was that you did'nt need a 
computer
diagnostic system or specialty tools to keep them running.....how many
shade-tree mechanics are there that can truly work on a new car with only
basic tools at hand.
    Is it possible for hot-rodders to tinker with grav units in any 
meaningful fashion?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 14:09:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Sun Aug 25 13:09:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <20020824210508.B24221@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <000001c24c71$a5aba460$6501a8c0@Darla>

I'm not sure the issue would be IR radiation for concealing power plant
output in space combat.  Certainly any ship with a powerplant would
generate heat that would have to be disposed of, most likely by
radiation, BUT it is relatively easy to control the directionality of
the IR radiation so as not to present much of an IR target as viewed
from the threat axis.  

A defending force could overcome some of this by placing a network of
ships or sensor buoys englobing the target at very long range (sound
like a job for a Scout ship), but such isolated platforms would be
vulnerable to destruction, so the defending Admiral's first warning of
an attack might be ships or sensors failing to report from a sector.
That would tell him that an enemy fleet MIGHT be approaching from there,
but would give little information about its composition...

Another thing...I thought that at some TL neutrino sensors became usable
to detect the presence of an operating fusion powerplant, and its
approximate power output?

TWB


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 14:12:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sun Aug 25 13:12:38 2002
Subject: [TML] USN vs USSR Navies and Spoofing Trav Sensors
References: <20020824055601.18032.qmail@web12302.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3D6876D6.6090805@usisp.com>

>
>
>The Soviets were scary.  Wake homing torpedoes, mach 3, multiple ton missles diving at you at a 70
>deg. inclination.  Not pretty.  I would not have liked to been in the CVBG's that charged up north
>of Norway!
>
    What about their advances in super-cavitation. Articles in 
Scientific American have pointed to
high speed torpedoes.... 100 kts. or higher. It is rumored that the 
Kursk was testing designs when it
blew up.

>




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 14:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sun Aug 25 13:16:03 2002
Subject: Subject: Re: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
References: <ML-2.3.1030135501.9084.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <3D686092.7020201@usisp.com>

Anthony Jackson wrote:

>Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:
>
>>     That used to be my take too, but I've been wrestling with the issue of
>> powerplants lately.  I'd love some sort of IR dampening, but can't find
>>hide  nor hair of it in canon (which DOESN'T mean it can't be done, MTU,
>>YTU, it's  all good!)
>>
>
>Sure there is.  It's called a black globe generator.
>
    Not for too long though....how long will it take for a black globe 
to top off its capacitors
when absorbing all the ship's emitted radiation minus background? It 
won't be re-emitting
it as weapons fire until the battle starts. I will see if I can work 
that out using ff&s1.
    I like the naval combat as ww1...thinking of Jutland or Dogger's 
Bank. Big ships
slugging it out with small ships as screens and maybe smaller ships and 
forward observers
(aka sopwith pups) trying to pinpoint fleets' positions and look out for 
subs ( stealth ships )



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 14:19:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sun Aug 25 13:19:27 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Prevalence of grav vehicles
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEOBCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3D685CF9.5000402@usisp.com>

>
>
>Grav vehicles will have to monitor themselves and not allow take-off if they
>are unsafe.  This may very annoying to consumers: "It ran fine yesterday,
>and today it refuses to activate the grav plates -- it says 'Error in Module
>404:  transynch chromotove actuation relay requires service.'  Is there a
>work-around, or do I have to have it carried to the shop?"
>
    A feature that many people will try to circumnavigate. Especially if 
it fails 100 kms
from an authorized service center. With so many manufacturers and models 
around, will parts be
easily available? What if the monitor itself fails....prevents use when 
systems is ok or allows
flight when system will fail.
    Is it 100% accurate and if not, what happens when a tanker 
grav-truck hauling a 10000 liters
of gasoline crashes into a building. Can drivers over-ride traffic 
systems?How many of them
will be able to drive in 3 dimensions ( given how poorly we drive here 
in America; almost all
 driver caused).

>Accidents in urban areas will be avoided by use of grav traffic control.
>
    Great. Cops will be able to control where you land, travel between 
areas and generally
dictate where you can and cannot go in a grav vehicle. A computer based 
attack on that network
can snarl traffic and cause deaths of many if it fails. A pimply kid can 
bring a city to its knees
with a denial of service attack. Or maybe just a bug in the latest 
upgrade to it.

There has to be a better way than that.





From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 14:22:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sun Aug 25 13:22:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Rockballs and Economics
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNKEOIEEAA.carlino@cox.net>
Message-ID: <3D686B67.1000707@usisp.com>

>
>
>>   When you buy something, you receive goods in exchange for money.
>>When you sell
>>something, you receive money in exchange for goods. Money is anything
>>that has worth,
>>whether it is gov backed paper, gold, llammas, or wampum. How can
>>business be conducted
>>in any other way? Anything else is just a method of doing the above.
>>
>
>Still the credit card and banking system have had an effect on the way
>business is done. The very existence of credit has a major effect on how
>business is done. My parents never bought anything on credit (except a
>house.) Like many who lived through the depression they only bought what
>they could pay for. Besides in the 1950's only the rich could get a credit
>card or unsecured loan.
>
    Thats simply a new method; selling a promise to pay a loan back with 
interest
for money. Or you buy money with a promise to pay loan back with interest.
Breaking this promise is the same as stealing and subject to legal action
 ( possibly jail ). The underlying concepts of buy/sell is unchanged.

>Saying that its all the same doesn't make it the same. Banking, Insurance,
>the stock market. All of these affect the way business is done. None of
>these concepts existed in 1002. A peasant couldn't eat venison in that year,
>it was reserved for the nobles. In some countries in 1002 a nobleman didn't
>have to pay taxes, in 2002, in the same country they do. This affects the
>economy and the way in which business is done.
>
    Banks sell loans, insurance companies sell...insurance nad the stock 
market is a place where
percentages of companies are bought and sold. Underlying concept of 
buy/sell is unchanged.
The other example involving the poor peasant is of local laws that 
restrict markets.
Taxes are monies paid to governments to 'buy' services provided by 
governments. In 1002,
the nobleman was the government. He was simply 'paying' himself.

    The idea of politics as business of words/promises still applies to 
big honking guns....
The head gun promises not to kill people if the people promise to obey 
him. Or else
there will be a bloody revolt until the survivors promise to obey the 
big gun or
someone else.
    It is just an idea to play out high level politics between worlds 
and diplomacy.

>
>Exactly. Since they have no money to purchase the goods to start with, there
>is a very low volume of trade. High TL worlds will not trade very much with
>low TL worlds. Trade percentage will be low and the worlds will stay at
>different TL's. When Hard Times come the high TL world will stay at high TL
>and the low TL world will stay at low TL and no regression of TL will occur.
>Which makes my case.
>
    That is true only if you assume that lo-tech =poor which is 
unreasonable. Perhaps
some worlds listed as high tech are rich and import most of their 
'toys'. They will
be the worlds that drop tech levels. Also, high-tech worlds refusing to 
trade will lose
a decent percentage of their gwp. And thats after they retool their 
factories. At least
if you use pocket empires as I do.

>>   I still stand by my interpretation of tech levels and of econonomics.
>>
        Local tech and import tech should be listed separately to 
resolve this.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 14:27:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sun Aug 25 13:27:05 2002
Subject: [TML] wet navies
Message-ID: <3D68857B.7030005@usisp.com>

    I just looked up super cavitation. Torpedoes in excess 300 kts. 
Explosion on Kursk probably caused by test 'sqvall'



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 14:30:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Sun Aug 25 13:30:19 2002
Subject: [TML] USS America - Naval crew accommodation/air/raft
References: <200208231554.NKD02916@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <012301c24c0b$93695420$a4c7d63f@customer>

I'd like one, please.  It sounds like something that it would be useful to
have.

Thanks in advance.

jlscarlett@earthlink.net

----- Original Message -----
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2002 11:53 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] USS America - Naval crew accommodation/air/raft


> Beth asks
> >Maybe you should draw out a deck plan for an air/raft based
> >on the Blackhawk layout and post it.  (For those of us who
> >have never been in a Blackhawk.)
>
> I have a bitmap of the layout if anyone would like it.
> ________________
> The Moving Finger writes; and having writ,
> Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit
> Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
> Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 14:33:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Sun Aug 25 13:33:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ABBA Cadabra
In-Reply-To: <17a.d7717a8.2a99bb92@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D6936D6.18364.24EADA@localhost>

On 25 Aug 2002 at 0:48, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> >>Don't _make_ me repost my ABBA Trav filk....
> >>
> >
> >ABBA ... Trav ... filk????
> 
> Could it be any worse than TAKE A CHANCE ON ME? Just typing the title means 
> that I'll have to go drive it out of my head by playing HOOKED ON A FEELING 
> by Blue Swede.

I've always found that Pink Floyd and/or Led Zep played good and loud 
does the trick.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 14:37:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Sun Aug 25 13:37:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <20020824104542.G22769@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <00d501c24cae$8b52b8f0$1001a8c0@sauron>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Timothy Little
> Sent: Friday, August 23, 2002 5:46 PM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
>
>
> Tod Glenn wrote:
> > I've fitted these with small maneuver drives that give them the same
> > acceleration as 'real' vessels (these drive can be pretty small,
> > since I'm not pushing much mass).  How does the defender deal with
> > this.
>
> The defender looks at the power output from the maneuver drives, looks
> at their acceleration, and calculates the mass of the blip.  They may
> well be off by a factor of 2 or 3, but not likely to be off by a
> factor of 100.

How do they measure the power output ?

And how do maneuver drives get seen anyway ?

I.E., what emissions do thruster plates give off ?

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 14:40:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Sun Aug 25 13:40:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <20020824074917.4fa89f98.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <00d801c24caf$acc62610$1001a8c0@sauron>

Jens Rydholm wrote :
> On Fri, 23 Aug 2002 18:27:44 -0700
> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
>
> > How does the defender measure power output?
>
> All energy generated on board the ship must be radiated away
> somehow (or the ship will melt). What the defender does is
> measure the amount of energy radiating from that blip over there.

Again, HOW ?

How do you measure power oputput when you haven't got a meter attached
to the generator, and the ship could be radiating in all sorts of
directions, on thousands of wavelengths, and differently in each ?

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 14:45:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Sun Aug 25 13:45:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: ABBA Cadabra
In-Reply-To: <17a.d7717a8.2a99bb92@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020825203407.7982.qmail@web11807.mail.yahoo.com>

--- GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> >>Don't _make_ me repost my ABBA Trav filk....
> >>
> >
> >ABBA ... Trav ... filk????
> 
> Could it be any worse than TAKE A CHANCE ON ME? Just
> typing the title means 
> that I'll have to go drive it out of my head by
> playing HOOKED ON A FEELING 
> by Blue Swede.

You know, a few years ago, maybe '94 or '95, the
members of ABBA were offered one billion dollars by
some record label to do a reunion tour. They turned it
down. 

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 14:48:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Sun Aug 25 13:48:21 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020824105904.009f6910@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <00d901c24cb0$45d383c0$1001a8c0@sauron>

Douglas Berry wrote :
> The C-130 is the greatest aircraft ever to leave  
> the face of the Earth.

Sorry, it doesn't even hold a candle to the C-47/DC-3 yet.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 14:51:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Sun Aug 25 13:51:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Longest Hypenated Surname?
Message-ID: <memo.121576@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <a5.2c7753ae.2a99beae@aol.com>
> I vaguely remember reading about some twig on the family tree of the 
> British Royal family that ended up with a 5-part hypenated surname 
> Something-something-paget-Chandos-something . . . I think it may have 
> been in Burke's Peerage or some such, but all I really need to know is 
> the current record-holder for such monikers.

According to the Guinness Book of Records, the longest (single-word) 
English surname is Featherstonehaugh (pronounced Fanshaw).

In the Basque language, the longest surname is 
Iturriberrigorrigoikoerrotakoetxea!

In Scotland, the longest surname is MacGhilleseatheanaich

A few thoughts, although I don't have the full version of the particular 
one you are looking for (yet...).

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 14:55:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug 25 13:55:15 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Source for VERY Cool Minatures!
Message-ID: <107.16ea59b6.2a9a0160@aol.com>

Zane Healy writes:

>As odd as the source might sound, I've found a source for very cool
>minatures for Sci-Fi games such as Striker.  If you're into such things
>and
>haven't seen them yet, check out Mechwarrior: Dark Age from WizKids Games
>(Mage Knight).  http://www.wizkidsgames.com/mwdarkage/
>
>While the Mech's aren't appropriate for Traveller,

Sure they are. Or a couple anyway. Just don't think of them in their original 
scale. Put a standard civilian Construction Mech  (the one painted yellow) 
next to a 25mm Traveller figure. If you aren't reaching for your favorite 
version of Traveller robot rules very shortly thereafter...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 14:59:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun Aug 25 13:59:10 2002
Subject: [TML] (OT) My day
References: <20020825025302.14466.63462.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <004201c24c31$cbff2640$33b18b90@computer>

So, today is the 60th anniversary of the battle of Milne Bay. This was the
first decisive defeat of the Japanese forces on land in WWII. As it happens,
half of the Australian troops involved were raw conscript militia boys from
Queensland, and one of these battalions came from the nasty place where I
live (Toowoomba, and the Darling Downs).

Anyway, Lt-General Peter Cosgrove, the current supreme honcho of the
Australian Defence Force happened to be in town, and opened a display in a
local museum that covered Milne Bay and the Bougainville campaign that was
the other big thing that the local boys did. As it happens, I wrote these
displays... I avoided Cosgrove like the plague.

Anyway, that was fun. I had an even better thing at six o'clock on the news,
when a friend of mine from South Africa appeared, leading a demonstration
against the "let's all sell the environment to the oil companies" summit.
This is a good friend of mine, who was publically anti-apartheid way back
when being anti-apartheid wasn't a good career move in SA. He got expelled
from the Communist Party when he started suggesting that the deal that was
made in 1994 might not have been the best idea ever...

He's still on the side of the angels. : )

Oops. Now I understand why it is good for me to avoid responding to
flamebait.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 15:03:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug 25 14:03:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Beam jitter
Message-ID: <200208251305.NNA00087@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

JR Holmes says
>Solution is not to use a single integrated mirror.  Just as 
>radars have stopped using a single dish to steer their beam 
>and switched to phased array systems, I would imagine that a 
>Traveller laser weapon system would instead be aimed with an 
>array of nanomirrors similar in principle to those used in 
>digital projection systems (TI makes micro-mirror arrays in 
>the 100 megapixel range).  The individual tiny mirrors are 
>almost immune to vibration and jitter because they are
>almost massless.  Even today's system is capable of very 
>finely controlled reflection and focusing.  With an array 
>system such as this on a solid substrate, there may be no 
>particular size limit on the objective mirror.

The OTA assessment assumes that the mirror is composed of 
many tiny mirrors being used as an adaptive optic.  The 
problem lies in the fact that

a) the mirrors still require a substructure that will vibrate
b) mirrors segments have a minimum mass due to extreme heating
c) the array will still have the same diameter as an ordinary 
mirror

You might well deploy a mirror suspended in a grav field 
before firing, physically isolated from the ship.
________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 15:07:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sun Aug 25 14:07:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Chaplain Bari
Message-ID: <3D68E5CE.FBD2C356@mindspring.com>

 Craft ID:
MCG class Destroyer, TL 13, MCr 15013.851,  
Quantity Discount MCr 12011.081, Architects fee MCr 148.652

 Hull:
13500/33750, Disp=15000, Conf=1Sl(Wedge), Armor=55F(5),  
Loaded=349434.297, Unloaded=337068.704

 Power: 
Primary 968/1936, Fusion=130,644 Mw, Duration=21 Days 
Secondary 842/1684, Fusion=113,634 Mw, Duration=3 
Extended Duration(excludes 1 G)= 85 Days,  Scoops, Purifiers 24 hrs

 Loco: 
675/1350, Jump=4, 1485/2970, Maneuver=4, Agility=0, NOE=170 kph

 Comm: 
Radio=System x 1, Laser=System x 2

 Sensors: 
A-EMS (FrOb) x 1, Hi-Dnst-D (100m) x 1, P-EMS (IntStlr) x 1,  
Neutrino-E (100 Kw)  x 1  
Sensor scans:   AOS=R  AOP=R  POS=D  POP=D  PES=R  PEP=D

Off:
150 hardpoints; 150 occupied; batteries bearing 100 % 
                 Bays: 50 ton Missile         x 4 
                       50 ton PA              x 1 
  Configurable Turrets: Triple Blaser-13      x 50  
                        Triple Sand-10        x 50 
                        Missile magazine: Nuc.=20 b/r 
                        Total=2000 missiles. 1 b/r=100 missiles 
                        Combat Statistics:(max/min) 
           T       B    S                            T     B   S 
Blaser     9/4    -    -                Sand      9/4   -    - 
           5/50                                   5/50
Missile    -      8    -                PA         -     4     - 
                  4                                      1
Def:
Def DM=6, EMMasking, Nuclear Damper=4, Meson screen=2

Control: 
Computer Model 7/fib x3 w/circuit protection,  
Panels= Holo Linked x17,932, Large Holodisplay x 3, holoHUD x 175

Accom: 
Officer=65 Crew=326 ( Pilots 5, Navigators 5, Bridge Officers 4, Bay
Gunners 73,  
Turret Gunners 37, Screens Engineers 24, Drive engineers 33, System
Engineers 15,  
Computer Engineers 4, Flight Officers 12, Flight Crew 23, Ground crew
12,  
Troops 75, Troops Officers 12, Ships Officers 41, Ships Physicians 1,  
Physicians mates 2, Counsel Steward 1, Purser Steward 3, Steward 9) 
Staterooms x 1, Small Staterooms x40, Bunks x 340,  Squad drop tube x
2,  
Std. Sick bay x 1, Surgery x 1, Gym x 1, 3 dton LB x 49, Airlocks x 40, 
Env=basic env, basic ls, extended ls, grav plates, inertial comp

Subcraft:
Grav vehicle x 9(10 tons), Launch x 2 (20 tons, Crew 2),  
Gig (20 tons, Crew 3), Modular Cutter (50 tons crew 2),  
Heavy fighter x 6 (50 ton crew 3), Assault lander x 2 (50 ton crew 4)

Other: 
Cargo=4943 kl/ 440.2 tons, EMLevel=Moderate, Fuel=91751 kl/ 6796 tons,  
ObjSize=Large, Ram time=2.3 hrs.

305.9 hrs Daily maintenance 
Logistics 2797 kl/month 
Author: Alan Spik 

Named after recipients of the MCG. The class ship "Chaplain Bari
Stafford" was laid down in 224. It remains in active service as a
training vessel at the Naval Acadamy at Glisten/Glisten/SM.
The vessels design has been upgraded twice as new technology was
discovered. 
-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 15:10:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun Aug 25 14:10:36 2002
Subject: [TML] District 268, fleets and the type T cruiser
Message-ID: <F44GJ2TUSzbAUfKRfcj00000066@hotmail.com>

From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor@rctrevor.com>

      "But I disagree that there's not much occuring for PCs when BBs
show the flag.  There are many things going on in and around a busy fleet, 
especially once the 5FW starts ..."


Mr. Trevor,

     You are, of course, correct sir.
     A good GM can find a plausible way for the deputy-vice-assistant 
laundry officer aboard INS HELLKITTEN  BB-1094523 to become involved in an 
adventure.  Unfortunately, I am not a good GM.
     IMTU, capital ships carry a number of jump capable small craft, mostly 
j-4 versions of the scout/courier.  Naturally, there are personnel assigned 
to them but they're not really part of the crew.  This is similar to the 
scouting float planes USN BBs and CAs carried during WW2.  While something 
like ComAirPac made sure each BB and CA had their allotted number of scouts, 
the crews and aircraft were frequently rotated.
     The "not really part of the crew" label that is attached to these crews 
makes them perfect for all sorts of shenanigans that the command may need 
doing.  It would also allow the GM to send them off hither and yon, unlike a 
capital ship which would rarely deploy away from it's squadron.
     IMTU, the arrival of major IN formations is like the arrival of the 
Imperial Marines in GT:GF, the party is most definitely OVER.  You've got a 
hard core of very large fighting ships and oodles of lesser vessels, both 
jump and nonjump, flitting about.  Sensor coverage becomes automatic, no one 
is going to burp without the fleet knowing about it.
     This little fancy of mine came from a visit to CALIFORNIA's CIC while 
we were rather far off the west coast of the US.  The scope dopes on duty 
were watching commercial airline flights at the airport in Las Vegas.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 15:13:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun Aug 25 14:13:56 2002
Subject: [TML] Information, please: GT:Imperial Navy
Message-ID: <F237ONhiBDXJ89G4JaO000103ea@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     Would anyone with the inside skinny on GT:IN please address the 
following question?  Are there administrative groupings in the Imperial Navy 
similar to those in the Real World?  i.e. ComSurfPac, ComSubLant, etc.
     Thank you.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 15:17:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Sun Aug 25 14:17:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Low Tech in a Hi Tech World (was: warship optimization)
In-Reply-To: <F124YP7g9y1OLCOQVni0000f5ef@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <E5FA0549-B840-11D6-8CCE-000502884755@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

On Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 04:26 PM, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

> - Bamboo and rush matting used as scaffolding at an industrial 
> construction site in Indonesia.

Actually, this is common throughout Asia.

Even in pre-communist Hong Kong, with workers using the latest cranes 
and other modern tools and materials,  they use bamboo scaffolding. 
It's quite strong, readily available, lighter, cheaper and more 
flexible to set up than steel scaffolding.

> --
Bruce Johnson

Wherever you go, there you are.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 15:21:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug 25 14:21:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Ping!
Message-ID: <3D694556.6466AB54@mail.cswnet.com>

Ping! Ping! Ping! Ping!

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 15:24:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug 25 14:24:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: OT,but sort of funny
Message-ID: <47.22143de4.2a9a6c42@aol.com>

>I don't know if this is true or not,
>www.top-greetings.com/A.py?R=20020822,0JSK

I've seen this attributed to every monarch from about 1600 on. Frederick the 
Great is a favorite also.

Cecil Adams <http://www.straightdope.com> discusses the question in one of 
his essays, and it cannot be proven one way or the other. I file this under 
the same heading as "Why are manhole covers round?" and other light classics.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 15:29:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Wilson)
Date: Sun Aug 25 14:29:13 2002
Subject: [TML] Non-prevalence of grav vehicles on lower tech
 worlds...
In-Reply-To: <200208231740.NKH01163@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020824220411.01e7f4e0@rollanet.org>

At 12:40 PM 8/23/02, you wrote:

>I'm thinking that the "air raft" is more of a plot device
>that gets characters to and from a ship/ground destination
>without having to detail the local transportation.
>________________

Traveller's version of the transporter? :)


--------------------------------------------------
Richard Wilson

rtwilson@rollanet.org
rtwilson2@yahoo.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 15:32:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sun Aug 25 14:32:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Non-canon weapon tech
Message-ID: <200208251926.NNN00007@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Ken Murphy says
>   Feel up to knocking out some CT/MT stats for  these 
>things, John? I know I'm always intewrested in alternate 
>weapon tech in Traveller, and maybe others might as well.
>   Always happy to cadge someone else's ideas :)

The thermonuclear bomb-pumped x-ray laser (hereafter known as
a laser submunition) uses an ordinary thermonuclear weapon to 
pump a rod of suitable material (palladium is popular).

In this design, the bomb adds a palladium rod inside the 
polystyrene-filled cylindrical radiation channel.  This rod 
sits centered inside of the hollow plutonium "spark plug".

These devices are rated at 5 MT nominal yield.  There is a 
minimum safe separation distance of 20km in space.  This 
requirement is filled either by ejecting the device and 
having a rocket booster take the device to the safe distance 
before detonation, or by placing the device aboard a drone 
that is destroyed on detonation.

The attack factor of a laser submunition is equal to its tech 
level plus 5.  Thus, we have the following:

TL	Factor
9	E
10	F
11	G
12	H
13	I
14	J
15	K

The hit applies on the particle accelerator table, and for 
all considerations is considered to be the same as a spinal
mount hit.  All spinal mount hit and damage rules apply.

Please note, however, that the weapon can only be used at 
Short range.  Submunitions may not be used for anti-missile 
fire.

A submunition launcher is a 50-ton bay weapon.  It costs 25 
Mcr, and requires 10 EP. This is the electromagnetic launcher 
that provides initial separation - the submunitions 
themselves have additional thrusters that will take them to 
the proper detonation position.  The launcher holds four 
submunitions - therefore it can be fired four times before 
reloading is necessary.

The reloads come in 4-rd packs.  Each reload pack displaces 1 
ton and costs 1 Mcr.

Alternately, the submunition can be used aboard a drone.

Drones are built as unmanned fighters, but include the cost 
of remote controls and a laser communicator in place of the
pilot's couch at the same displacement and cost.

The weapon itself displaces 1 ton, occupies one hardpoint, 
and contains the same number of weapons as a reload pack.  
When fired, there are four simultaneous attacks.

Drones are operated by another ship.  The operator ship 
remains in the reserve, while the drones go forward.  
Although drones have a minimum Computer Model 1, the drones 
use the computer factor of the controlling ship minus the
number of drones being controlled.  Once the drone is at 
short range, it can fire - and is destroyed in the process.

Autonomous drones, that is, drones with no controller can be 
built. They must have a minimum computer model of 3, and 
their effective computer rating is their model number minus 
two.  So, a fully autonomous drone with a computer model of 7 
would have an effective computer rating of 5.

Since a drone is essentially an unmanned fighter, it can chase
a target ship for a considerable period of time before coming
into range and firing.
________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 15:38:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Aug 25 14:38:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Source for VERY Cool Minatures!
In-Reply-To: <v04020a03b98df5005e6d@[192.168.1.5]>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020825132112.009e2d20@mindspring.com>

At 07:50 PM 8/24/02 -0700, you wrote:
>As odd as the source might sound, I've found a source for very cool
>minatures for Sci-Fi games such as Striker.  If you're into such things and
>haven't seen them yet, check out Mechwarrior: Dark Age from WizKids Games
>(Mage Knight).  http://www.wizkidsgames.com/mwdarkage/

Pretty good minis, but I love they targeting crosshairs on the 
webpage.  Must have it for the GridTech homepage.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 15:44:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Sun Aug 25 14:44:44 2002
Subject: [TML] test
Message-ID: <007801c24c81$c4cc2300$0415bd50@martinjd>

Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-to-the-Masses
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 16:03:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Aug 25 15:03:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817094644.009df2d0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020825.143958.1H1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail (2002-Aug-17) you write:

> At 03:53 AM 8/17/02 -0800, you wrote:
>>In mail you write:
>>
>>> In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020814155827.00b54720@mailhost.efn.org>
>>>
>>>> I don't think that it's fair to start counting down without giving
>>>> *some* hint as to what the characters should be reacting to.
>>>
>>> What if the 'clue' is a mechanical voice counting down?
>>
>>"I'm a thirty second bomb. I'm a thirty second bomb. 29..."
>>
>> I've got an electronic kitchen timer with an LCD display that has 1"
>> tall digits. Might be fun to pre set it to something and when
>> players ask "what do we see?" show that that, *after* hitting the
>> start button.  <eg>
>
> I pulled that in a modern-day CORPS game.  With five seconds left on
> the clock, I called out "BOOM!"  When the players complained about
> there still being time on the clock, i told them "You are dealing
> with an insane bomber, and you expect him to be honest with his
> timepieces?

Well, that *does* require either a second timing module, or wiring the
detonation circuit to the disply thru some middling fancy electronics
to decode the segment pattern. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 16:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Sun Aug 25 15:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Knowing and doing
In-Reply-To: <20020825200903.4160.12480.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208260007160.871-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Timothy Little writes:
>It becomes a little more difficult to explain why a TL 6 world stays
>TL 6 after a few hundred to a thousand years of significant trade with
>a large number of worlds having higher tech levels.

Simple. Assuming for purposes of argument that a significant amount of
trade will inevitably raise the TL of the lower-TL trade partner (which
is, I'd like to point out, only an assumption -- a pretty plausible
assumption, but nevertheless only an unproven assumption), the fact that a
world stays at TL 6 for centuries merely shows that said world does not
have a significant amount of trade with higher-TL trade partners.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 16:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Sun Aug 25 15:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <00d801c24caf$acc62610$1001a8c0@sauron>
References: <20020824074917.4fa89f98.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <00d801c24caf$acc62610$1001a8c0@sauron>
Message-ID: <20020825232232.358c3fff.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Sun, 25 Aug 2002 20:21:31 -0700
Frankie <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote:

> How do you measure power oputput when you haven't got a meter attached
> to the generator, and the ship could be radiating in all sorts of
> directions, on thousands of wavelengths, and differently in each ?

The radiation will be roughly equal in all directions. The energy will
be spread out over the entire EM spectrum, but that's not a problem.

You need to measure the radiation output, which provides a measure of
the generated energy on board the ship. By measuring the acceleration
using other methods, you can calculate the mass of the vessel using
F=m*a.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 16:25:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Aug 25 15:25:26 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <3D685CF9.5000402@usisp.com>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEOBCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020825151025.009efa40@mindspring.com>

At 12:28 AM 8/25/02 -0400, you wrote:

>>Accidents in urban areas will be avoided by use of grav traffic control.
>    Great. Cops will be able to control where you land, travel between 
> areas and generally
>dictate where you can and cannot go in a grav vehicle. A computer based 
>attack on that network
>can snarl traffic and cause deaths of many if it fails. A pimply kid can 
>bring a city to its knees
>with a denial of service attack. Or maybe just a bug in the latest upgrade 
>to it.

No system is perfect.  I know an Air Traffic Controller.  You'd be amazed 
at how fragile the systems that keep planes in the air are.

At this point the police can stop my car in several ways.  Spike strips, 
PITT manuver, shooting out my tires... and coming soon is a nifty little 
device that fries all the electronics in the car when I drive over 
it.  They are already testing a vehicle mounted version.

Law states that you need to be on the City Grid Emergency support 
system.  The system takes over and lands your vehicle if thresholds are 
reached, either in vehicle performance or unsafe driving.

>There has to be a better way than that.

My ears are open.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.
gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Author of GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces
Geek Code: tc tm tn- t4-- tg++$ ru ge+ 3i+@ c+
            jt- au pi he+ as+ so-                           



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 16:29:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Sun Aug 25 15:29:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <20020825.143958.1H1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020817094644.009df2d0@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020825152210.009e3240@mindspring.com>

At 02:39 PM 8/25/02 -0800, you wrote:
>Well, that *does* require either a second timing module, or wiring the
>detonation circuit to the disply thru some middling fancy electronics
>to decode the segment pattern.

Actually, the real timer didn't have a readout.  It was just a simple 30 
minute electric device.  The big flashy timer was a simple kitchen timer 
with a bunch of wires added.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 16:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun Aug 25 15:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Low Tech in a Hi Tech World (was: warship optimization)
Message-ID: <F109DyseVwrblZz02H60000007c@hotmail.com>

From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

     "Actually, this is common throughout Asia."

     "Even in pre-communist Hong Kong, with workers using the latest
cranes and other modern tools and materials,  they use bamboo
scaffolding. It's quite strong, readily available, lighter, cheaper and more 
flexible to set up than steel scaffolding."


Mr. Johnson,

     In addition to wearing out more rapidly, failing catastrophically, and 
being unable to support enough weight.  Of course, when the scaffolding 
collapses and a few dozen locals die, they simply round up some more bamboo 
and some more natives.  No OSHA worries there!
     Once, rather than having a crane lift a 300kg fan unit into position, I 
witnessed the "construction company" at the site disassemble the unit and 
handcarry the parts up the scaffolding.  They dropped a few parts a few 
times (no hardhats either) but put everything back together.  It didn't 
matter if the fan operated correctly after this was done, they got it where 
it needed to be.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 17:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 25 16:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Missiles in Traveller (was: USS North Carolina)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020824234522.020e7f90@mail.qrc.com>
References: <F250HW5uUJvf5whLmZv0001d394@hotmail.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020824234522.020e7f90@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <20020825183848.A30256@freeman.little-possums.net>

Derek Wildstar wrote:
> I'd like to see designs (and a combat system that supported them)
> that allowed for a variety of missiles and trade-offs between speed,
> range, "smarts" and destructive power.

Well for non-nuclear space missiles, it is pretty much the case that
speed == range == destructive power.

There might well be a meaningful tradeoff between speed and "smarts"
in the form of onboard sensor/processing systems, or between number of
missiles and the effectiveness of each one.


> Unfortunately, we'd probably have to suspend disbelieve in (or hand
> wave away) some realities of physics.

Probably.  FTL jump missiles, anyone?  :)


>  And I don't even want to think about reopening the old kinetic-kill
> missile debates ...

I don't think you can really avoid it, given what you want to discuss.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 17:05:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 25 16:05:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Beam jitter
In-Reply-To: <40rgmu4jtdrth6c5r69edf275ljnho7b24@4ax.com>
References: <200208240339.NLB00464@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <40rgmu4jtdrth6c5r69edf275ljnho7b24@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020825185126.B30256@freeman.little-possums.net>

JR Holmes wrote:
> With an array system such as this on a solid substrate, there may be
> no particular size limit on the objective mirror.

One minor problem: at the size scales we're talking about, there is no
such thing as a "solid" substrate.  Even a block of solid diamond
would appear to vibrate like jelly in an earthquake if you look that
closely.

Maybe a handwave like "bonded superdense" will solve the problem.  Or
grav focussing, however that works.  We are talking about the "Far
Future" after all.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 17:08:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Shadowcat)
Date: Sun Aug 25 16:08:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Source for VERY Cool Minatures!
In-Reply-To: <001a01c24bea$dd18b690$7400a8c0@matt>
Message-ID: <3D687D38.8696.C5BB8@localhost>

I've seen RC hovercraft, wouldnt be that hard to refit a tank body to 
one I would think


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 17:12:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Catgod)
Date: Sun Aug 25 16:12:31 2002
Subject: [TML] wet navies
References: <3D68857B.7030005@usisp.com>
Message-ID: <002c01c24c7f$99221360$0415bd50@martinjd>

>     I just looked up super cavitation. Torpedoes in excess 300 kts.
> Explosion on Kursk probably caused by test 'sqvall'

yes indeed. There are possibilities for airborne platforms using
supercavitating gun projectiles to kill mines, underwater guns for torpedo
defense, and 300kph fighter-subs. Fun stuff.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 17:16:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Catgod)
Date: Sun Aug 25 16:16:00 2002
Subject: [TML] Ping!
References: <3D694556.6466AB54@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <005801c24c7f$dffaac20$0415bd50@martinjd>

> Ping! Ping! Ping! Ping!
> 

Sounds like you're in the bumpers there... what's the problem?


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-to-the-Masses
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 17:20:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Sun Aug 25 16:20:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Nebula worlds
References: <200208221134.g7MBY1o11504@excalibur.skynet.be> <000f01c24a7e$399cb060$ce00a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <004c01c24c7f$474a3b80$a533f7c2@ptrevor>

Astrophysics questions: Is it possible to have a habitable planet
in a system that is inside a nebula?  Either as a result of a new
system never leaving its stellar nursry,  or  from  wandering  in
after it was formed.  If so would the solar wind keep the  system
more or less clear (and thus be a bubble of  clear  space  inside
the nebula) or, if not, what would  the  effect  on  a  planetary
atmosphere and temperature be?  Would  the  inside  of  a  nebula
appear dark to normal eyes?  And given typical OTU technology  is
it possible that such a system (not the star, just  the  planets)
be overlooked or  missed  by  Imperial  astronomers  if  it  were
located 10-20 parsecs beyond the Imperial border?  Or is this all
just space opera crap?

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 17:23:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 25 16:23:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <3D686CCB.8030404@usisp.com>
References: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNIEOJEEAA.carlino@cox.net> <3D686CCB.8030404@usisp.com>
Message-ID: <20020826080111.A31692@freeman.little-possums.net>

richard honeycutt wrote:
>     If it is absorbing light and not radiating, then what is it
> doing with that energy which can be signifcant in the habitable
> zone?

Possibly, redirecting it around the ship and radiating it on the same
course as it would have taken had the ship not been there.  Note: no
passive optical system can do this, but an active system might be able
to manage a good approximation of it.

There are strong reasons for believing that an active system would
have to add a significant extra amount of energy to what it radiates
in this manner.  This means that it would appear as a much brighter
spot in front of the sun to sensors in the right direction.  It is
also likely (but not theoretically required) that there would be
radiation in other directions as well.

It also still has to get rid of any heat it generates.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 17:27:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Catgod)
Date: Sun Aug 25 16:27:07 2002
Subject: [TML] wet navies
References: <3D68857B.7030005@usisp.com>
Message-ID: <002c01c24c85$946e1980$0415bd50@martinjd>



>     I just looked up super cavitation. Torpedoes in excess 300 kts.
> Explosion on Kursk probably caused by test 'sqvall'
>

This was the inspiration for the Amber Zone "Torpedo Los(t)!" in the
Linkworlds freebie, over on the COTI site.

One of the others was inspired by a strategic report I was editing on the
petrochemical industry.

Amazing, what you can steal from real life...



Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-to-the-Masses
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 17:30:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 25 16:30:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <000001c24c71$a5aba460$6501a8c0@Darla>
References: <20020824210508.B24221@freeman.little-possums.net> <000001c24c71$a5aba460$6501a8c0@Darla>
Message-ID: <20020826082603.B31692@freeman.little-possums.net>

Thomas Barnes wrote:
> A defending force could overcome some of this by placing a network
> of ships or sensor buoys englobing the target at very long range

It's not just a tactic limited to the defender.  It is pretty easy to
put drone sensor systems well past weapons range within an hour.


> (sound like a job for a Scout ship), but such isolated platforms
> would be vulnerable to destruction,

The attacker has to find them first.  If the attacker can control the
directionality of their emissions to avoid detection, so can the
drones.  The sensor platforms also have the advantages of radiating
*much* less power and being much smaller, so its even easier for them.

Furthermore they might be concealed as, or by, natural bodies -- an
option the attacker doesn't have.

Then there's jump flash, which makes any attacker's concealment
options rather limited.


> so the defending Admiral's first warning of an attack might be ships
> or sensors failing to report from a sector.  That would tell him
> that an enemy fleet MIGHT be approaching from there, but would give
> little information about its composition...

No, in Traveller the first warning will be when ships jumping in
broadcast their arrival to all and sundry.

In a hypothetical space combat that lacks jump flash, and has
reactionless thrusters to avoid drive plume radiation, and in which
the attacker knows where all the defender's sensors are right now
(i.e. not operating on information two weeks old), and where effective
sensor range is less than weapons range, and in which sensors are no
more effective when you know where to look, and in which the defender
only has sensors within a few hundred thousand kilometres of the
attacker's objective, then you might be right.

That is isn't Traveller though, and presupposes a pretty stupid
defender and omniscient attacker to boot.


> Another thing...I thought that at some TL neutrino sensors became
> usable to detect the presence of an operating fusion powerplant, and
> its approximate power output?

Only at shorter ranges than are relevant for first contact.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 17:33:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 25 16:33:56 2002
Subject: Subject: Re: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <3D686092.7020201@usisp.com>
References: <ML-2.3.1030135501.9084.ajackson@ping> <3D686092.7020201@usisp.com>
Message-ID: <20020826083426.C31692@freeman.little-possums.net>

richard honeycutt wrote:
>     Not for too long though....how long will it take for a black
> globe to top off its capacitors when absorbing all the ship's
> emitted radiation minus background?

Supposing a globe of 100 metre diameter, with Earthlike incident
sunlight, then it will absorb 40 GJ per hour.  Unfortunately I don't
know what the capacity of black globe capacitors are.  I would suppose
them to be as least as good as GURPS TL12 rechargeable power cells,
which would mean that they should be able to last on the order of a
week.

Still, being unable to maneuver while englobed is not at all good.  If
you were seen entering the system, then your course is highly
predictable.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 17:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Aug 25 16:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <20020825232232.358c3fff.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <B98EB4C8.6AE2A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/25/02 2:22 PM, Jens Rydholm at jenry023@student.liu.se wrote:

>=20
> You need to measure the radiation output, which provides a measure of
> the generated energy on board the ship. By measuring the acceleration
> using other methods, you can calculate the mass of the vessel using
> F=3Dm*a.
>=20

You've left something critical out.  Acceleration is easy to measure, yes.
But you'll need to know the exact thrust the engine is producing to
calculate the ship's mass.


--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 17:41:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 25 16:41:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Knowing and doing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208260007160.871-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <20020825200903.4160.12480.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208260007160.871-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <20020826084854.D31692@freeman.little-possums.net>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> Timothy Little writes:
> >It becomes a little more difficult to explain why a TL 6 world stays
> >TL 6 after a few hundred to a thousand years of significant trade with
> >a large number of worlds having higher tech levels.

> Simple. [...] said world does not have a significant amount of trade
> with higher-TL trade partners.

Did you miss the question completely?  We were talking about the
situation of low-tech worlds that *do* have significant trade.


The problem is that the Imperium is based on trade, and a very large
proportion of its members are low-tech and have been for centuries.
Given your simple explanation, why then do most of its members have
insignificant amounts of trade?

It is also the reverse of the situation in Far Trader, where the
low-tech worlds have a generally *higher* proportion of trade than the
high-tech ones.  Typically by a factor of more than ten.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 17:45:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Sun Aug 25 16:45:42 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Knowing and doing
Message-ID: <F206mEaJswFCHOzyfyz0000002d@hotmail.com>

From: Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>

     "Simple. Assuming for purposes of argument that a significant amount of 
trade will inevitably raise the TL of the lower-TL trade partner (which is, 
I'd like to point out, only an assumption -- a pretty plausible assumption, 
but nevertheless only an unproven assumption), the fact that a world stays 
at TL 6 for centuries merely shows that said world does not have a 
significant amount of trade with higher-TL trade partners."


Mr. Rancke-Madsen,

     A nifty explanation.  You may have made an assumption, but it's a 
pretty good one in my estimation.  Now the questions are; how much trade, 
for how long, and who reaps the benefits?
     I just finished re-reading "King Leopold's Ghost", all about that swell 
Belgian monarch and his humanitarian efforts in his personal piece of 
Africa, the Congo.(1)
     There may be a few people in what passes for urban centers in 
Zaire/Congo/Fill-in-the-Blank who live at a higher TL then their ancestors 
did a century ago, but I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of 
people in that portion of our world live no better and at the same TL as 
their ancestors in the late 1800's did; and that is after a century of trade 
with higher tech societies.
     Congo/Zaire has supplied the world with uranium, gemstones, natural 
rubber, and other treasures for over 100 years, but is no better off (and is 
most likely worse) than it was before that time.  Why?  Because the benefits 
of that trade have been siphoned off by equally corrupt foreigners and 
locals alike for their own purposes.
     Billions have been poured into the Congo by trade and aid, and no 
noticeable benefits have ever accrued from any of it.  The same effect could 
occur in the Imperium.  The 3I enforces free interstellar trade, but it 
doesn't seem to be bothered about where the benefits of that trade fall.
     Low tech worlds in the Third Imperium are certainly poor, most likely 
corrupt, have low trade balances, and definitely culturally deficient.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

(1) My tongue was FIRMLY in my cheek while typing that passage.

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 17:48:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sun Aug 25 16:48:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Source for VERY Cool Minatures!
References: <20020825200903.4160.12480.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <005901c24c8f$42ef2b80$09bd8b90@computer>

> From: "Matthew Bond" 
> Miniatures, schminiatures....
> Now *THIS* is more like it =)
> http://www.wizkidsgames.com/mwdarkage/mw_article.asp?cid=36984&frame=news

Oh yeah. I wanted to climb into it myself...

> ObTrav: Who wants to build themself^H^H^H^.... err their Kids... a scale
> replica Beowulf to play in.

Hmm...

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 17:52:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Aug 25 16:52:22 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020825151025.009efa40@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B98EB610.6AE2B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/25/02 3:19 PM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:

> At this point the police can stop my car in several ways.  Spike strips,
> PITT manuver, shooting out my tires...

Sorry.  I have to comment on this one.  Trying to shoot out tires, Hollywoo=
d
to the contrary, is extremely dangerous and not very effective.  It's
dangerous not to the driver of the target vehicle, but to everyone else.
Modern automobile tires are fairly bullet resistant.  One of the first uses
for kevlar was in tire belts.  And anyone who has been stupid enough to try
shooting at a tire will tell you that very often, the bullet comes bouncing
right back,

High powered rifles can usually penetrate an auto tire, however these
weapons are almost never carried by police and have their own problem when
used in urban environments.  Pistols, pistol-caliber carbines and shotguns,
the common tools of police officers, just aren't up to the job.




--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 17:56:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 25 16:56:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <20020824105111.H22769@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <B98BFA69.6AC84%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <E17iLc9-0006ot-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net>
 <B98BFA69.6AC84%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020825194404.02bd2008@192.168.0.1>

At 10:51 AM 8/24/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>Tod Glenn wrote:
> > Looking at Traveller income, you have to make the grav car available at
> > something like Cr7,000 before it could be within the reach of the average
> > citizen.
>In GURPS, you can get new low-end models out at 2000-3000 CrImp.
>If you make them at lower quality, you can bring that down to a
>rock-bottom price of about 1000 CrImp, at the cost of increased
>maintenance requirements.
>Used ones would be cheaper still.

Built at what (CT) Tech Level?



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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 17:59:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Sun Aug 25 16:59:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <20020825213841.7003.19467.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentra
 l.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020825164205.00b8f008@mailhost.efn.org>

"Frankie" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> asked:

> > All energy generated on board the ship must be radiated away
> > somehow (or the ship will melt). What the defender does is
> > measure the amount of energy radiating from that blip over there.
>
>Again, HOW ?
>
>How do you measure power oputput when you haven't got a meter attached
>to the generator, and the ship could be radiating in all sorts of
>directions, on thousands of wavelengths, and differently in each ?

What you're missing is that these ships aren't radiating in radio or 
something (well, they are, but that's beside the point); they're radiating 
HEAT, and lots of it.  If their usable power is in the megajoule range, 
they're radiating at least that much, almost certainly more by an order of 
magnitude or two.  There's only so many ways to get rid of that heat, and 
so many tricks you can use to hide it.  Sensors will be able to pick these 
ships out at great distances purely by their heat emissions.

Even if you cut the power figures for Traveller starships back to something 
that doesn't make a Scout/Courier literally glow in the dark(!), there's 
still  the inescapable fact that a ship with everything but life-support 
shut down is still going to be visible against the background of 
space.  Unless you have crew that don't mind a room temperature in the 
double digits of Kelvin.

It's like trying to hide in a big dark room with a flashlight that you can 
turn down, but not off (and not even that when you're moving and 
firing).  All you can do is point it in different directions and hope 
there's no one there to see you.  Or hide behind one of the other lights - 
but then you're not going anywhere, are you?


--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 18:02:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 25 17:02:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <B98EB4C8.6AE2A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020825232232.358c3fff.jenry023@student.liu.se> <B98EB4C8.6AE2A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020826095127.A31994@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> You've left something critical out.  Acceleration is easy to
> measure, yes.  But you'll need to know the exact thrust the engine
> is producing to calculate the ship's mass.

Exact?  Hell no!

In the context of the original discussion, which was distinguishing a
real battleship from a large number of disposable decoys, all you need
is to get a thrust estimate to within two or three *orders of magnitude*.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 18:06:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 25 17:06:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <B98C07A0.6AC94%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <ML-2.3.1030141309.5089.ajackson@ping>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020825193852.02619008@192.168.0.1>

At 03:39 PM 8/23/2002 -0700, Tod Glenn wrote:
[snip]
>According to my calculations, based on the CT Credit being linked to the
>value of the 1977 US dollar, the current US dollar is valued at Cr0.34
>Imperial.  Or, in other words, a Cr10,000 vehicle would cost $29,200.  If we
>apply the same conversion, and assume that the average imperial income is on
>par with the average US income in terms of buying power (which seems
>reasonable, considering the authors) then we end up with an average Imperial
>income of about Cr10,000 per year.
>
>So our mythical grav car represents about two years income for the average
>Imperial citizen.  Naturally, if you are working from other versions of
>Traveller, you'll get a different figure, but it seems quite obvious from
>the prices listed in CT, that the CT credit is not on par with the current
>US dollar (Boy, wouldn't I like to be able to by a new autopistol for $200)
[snip]
>I can't speak to GT and how it's economic units compare to US dollars, but I
>suspect it's quite different than that of CT.

FYI, T20, according to T20 Lite, puts the Imperial Credit at about $3 US.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 18:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Sun Aug 25 17:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Moon Q&A
Message-ID: <3D696DD6.6E8EFE2C@mail.cswnet.com>

Does anyone know what the tallest and lowest point on the moon is?

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 18:13:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 25 17:13:37 2002
Subject: [TML] Nebula worlds
In-Reply-To: <004c01c24c7f$474a3b80$a533f7c2@ptrevor>
References: <200208221134.g7MBY1o11504@excalibur.skynet.be> <000f01c24a7e$399cb060$ce00a8c0@imogen> <004c01c24c7f$474a3b80$a533f7c2@ptrevor>
Message-ID: <20020826100856.B31994@freeman.little-possums.net>

Peter L.S. Trevor wrote:
> Astrophysics questions: Is it possible to have a habitable planet in
> a system that is inside a nebula?

Yes.  Quite easily, really.


> If so would the solar wind keep the system more or less clear

I believe so, but I wouldn't be surprised if I was wrong.  Not that it
would make a lot of difference either way.


> Would the inside of a nebula appear dark to normal eyes?

Probably brighter than our own sky, since the system primary will
light it up at least a bit, and there may be other stars inside it or
near it as well.


>  And given typical OTU technology is it possible that such a system
> (not the star, just the planets) be overlooked or missed by Imperial
> astronomers if it were located 10-20 parsecs beyond the Imperial
> border?

Not much chance, I'm afraid.  Scouts have almost certainly visited
every star within that range and quite a bit beyond over the last
thousand years.

An exception would be if you view the Imperium as existing in a rough
plane accessible to jump space within the 3D galaxy.  If the system is
10 parsecs outside that plane, no-one could visit via jump, and such a
star system would be just one of millions of inaccessible and
unexplored systems.  They might not even bother to look for planets.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 18:17:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 25 17:17:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <200208240138.NKX00465@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020825200623.02986eb8@192.168.0.1>

At 09:38 PM 8/23/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:
>Mark Urbin says
> >On Garda-Vilis, I'm making ownership of grav vehicles
> >restricted to those with government licenses.
> >The exceptions would be the grav vehicles owned by the
> >Starport Authority and the IISS base.
> >Those are registered with the government also.
> >Most travel between cities is by commercial grav transport
> >or rail.
> >Out in the boonies, most grav vehicles are owned by the
> >government or the large ranches (with the political
> >connections).
>
>I have Vilis as a densely populated world, per canon.
>Since it's a planned colony, I'm putting a lot of the
>population in arcologies, with most long distance personnel
>transport by grav shuttle (at Vilis' tech level and city
>structure, not many people will own a personal grav
>vehicle).  Cargo transport between cities is by evacuated
>tunnel maglev (supersonic).
>Inside the arcologies, there are small trains, or even
>individual cars on tracks for distance travel within the
>arcology.  That, and a lot of slidewalks.
>So, I'm thinking the pattern isn't that far off from the way
>things are run on Garda-Vilis.

This sounds good for the large cities near the Starport.
Out in the boonies, on the large corp-farms, it's ATV trucks to haul the 
workers and grav-pickups.
By grav-pickup, I'm talking a stripped down unit that would be shot down if 
you tried taking near controlled air/space.
Basic lift & drive with a fair amount of cargo capacity.  Cheap to build & 
maintain.




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http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
" I was not trying to be shocking, or to be a pioneer.
I wasn't trying to change society, or to be ahead of my time.
I didn't think of myself as liberated, and I don't believe that I
did anything important. I was just myself. I didn't know any
other way to be, or any other way to live." -- Bettie Page
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 18:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Aug 25 17:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020825164205.00b8f008@mailhost.efn.org>
Message-ID: <B98EC0AC.6AE3F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/25/02 4:51 PM, Kelly St.Clair at kellys@efn.org wrote:

>>=20
>> Again, HOW ?
>>=20
>> How do you measure power oputput when you haven't got a meter attached
>> to the generator, and the ship could be radiating in all sorts of
>> directions, on thousands of wavelengths, and differently in each ?
>=20
> What you're missing is that these ships aren't radiating in radio or
> something (well, they are, but that's beside the point); they're radiatin=
g
> HEAT, and lots of it.  If their usable power is in the megajoule range,
> they're radiating at least that much, almost certainly more by an order o=
f
> magnitude or two.  There's only so many ways to get rid of that heat, and
> so many tricks you can use to hide it.  Sensors will be able to pick thes=
e
> ships out at great distances purely by their heat emissions.

Well, if your going to talk about realistic heat output, it seem that with
the amount of fuel consumed, even with 99% efficiency, your powerplant will
generate so much waste heat that the ships going to melt down after a while=
.
Looking at the typical small ship, for example, the trusty scout courier,
you've only got so much surface area and can only dispose of waste heat via
radiation.

Anyone have some numbers on how much heat you can radiate away vs. the
amount of waste generated by the powerplant and drives?  I suspect that mos=
t
Traveller ships end up being mobile incinerators.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 18:24:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Ayers)
Date: Sun Aug 25 17:24:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Nebula worlds
In-Reply-To: <004c01c24c7f$474a3b80$a533f7c2@ptrevor>
Message-ID: <002001c24c95$ae53c9c0$2f7de40c@loki>

I'm no astrophysicist but it would seem to me that all depends on the
strength of the planets and stars electromagnetic fields. That is what
protects us from our stellar and interstellar environment.

Unless I'm wrong and my amateur/dilettante mind has misunderstood what
I've read.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 18:27:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 25 17:27:42 2002
Subject: [TML] The DIE EMPIRE!
In-Reply-To: <3D66F3CD.B329D600@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020825201438.02614148@192.168.0.1>

You had to post this after I just finished watching Junkyard Wars... :-)


At 09:47 PM 8/23/2002 -0500, Roseberry wrote:
>Ship: DIE EMPIRE!
>Class: DIE EMPIRE!
>Type: Intruder Corsair
>Architect: Dan Roseberry
>Tech Level: 13
>
>USP
>          JC-0103311-000000-00003-0 MCr 16.775 15 Tons
>Bat Bear                       1   Crew: 5
>Bat                            1   TL: 13
>Cargo: 4.300 Emergency Low: 2 Fuel: 1.000 EP: 0.450 Agility: 3 Pirates:
>4
>Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops

[snip]


>COMMENTS
>After two successive defeats at the hands of the Empire, the
>remaining rebels on Lewis try to rebuild their forces. After sifting
>through the old port junkyard, the only remaining portion of the old
>starport that survived, the rebels have managed to cobble together parts
>from two launches and a lifeboat to create the DIE EMPIRE attack ship.
>Now the question is: Who will be brave enough to crew it.
>
>Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

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that grabs you, shakes you by the collar and cries, 'ACCEPT me, damn you,
or turn me away-BUT FOR GOD'S SAKE DON'T POLLUTE ME WITH NON-DAIRY
CREAMER!'" - Tripp Biscuit while coffee tasting.
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 18:31:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Ayers)
Date: Sun Aug 25 17:31:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Nebula worlds
In-Reply-To: <004c01c24c7f$474a3b80$a533f7c2@ptrevor>
Message-ID: <002101c24c96$0159c160$2f7de40c@loki>

In addition, my guess is that being in the nebula would be like being in
a light fog. You don't see it very near you but it appears thicker and
thicker as you look away from your location. But that is just what my
minds eye imagines based upon real world/inside the atmosphere
experience extrapolated.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 18:34:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 25 17:34:40 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020825194404.02bd2008@192.168.0.1>
References: <B98BFA69.6AC84%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <E17iLc9-0006ot-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net> <B98BFA69.6AC84%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <20020824105111.H22769@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020825194404.02bd2008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020826101900.C31994@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:

[Tim wrote:]
> >In GURPS, you can get new low-end models out at 2000-3000 CrImp.
> >If you make them at lower quality, you can bring that down to a
> >rock-bottom price of about 1000 CrImp, at the cost of increased
> >maintenance requirements.
> >Used ones would be cheaper still.
> 
> Built at what (CT) Tech Level?

TL 7 with imported TL 9-11 contragrav and thrusters, according to the
conversion table in GURPS Traveller.


- Tim



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 18:38:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Aug 25 17:38:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <20020826095127.A31994@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <B98EC319.6AE46%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/25/02 4:51 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:

> Tod Glenn wrote:
>> You've left something critical out.  Acceleration is easy to
>> measure, yes.  But you'll need to know the exact thrust the engine
>> is producing to calculate the ship's mass.
>=20
> Exact?  Hell no!
>=20
> In the context of the original discussion, which was distinguishing a
> real battleship from a large number of disposable decoys, all you need
> is to get a thrust estimate to within two or three *orders of magnitude*.

And you are getting a thrust estimate based on the waste heat produced by
the powerplant.  Which means that you are making assumptions about about th=
e
efficiency, and that there is no way to build a powerplant that can spoof
the waste output of a much larger plant.

You will know (as the spoofer certainly) exactly what your emissions look
like before hand. Won't it be possible to build a radiator that produces an
output like your vessel, in the same way that current naval ships use thing=
s
like blip enhancers to make escort vessels look like the carriers they are
protecting?


--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 18:41:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cybernaut)
Date: Sun Aug 25 17:41:47 2002
Subject: [TML] USS America - Naval crew accommodation/air/raft
In-Reply-To: <012301c24c0b$93695420$a4c7d63f@customer>
Message-ID: <000101c24c98$53d4f340$fe205142@george>

WRT a deck plan for an air/raft based on the Blackhawk layout
John T. Kwon <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:
- I have a bitmap of the layout if anyone would like it.

If you would like to send me a copy, I can convert it to GIF or
PNG and post it somewhere that anyone can get a copy of it.

I must be Travelling,
Jason

IMTU tc+ ?tm ?tn t4+ tg to ru ge++ !3i c+(-) jt au+ ?st ls pi+ ta+
 he+ kk++ hi+ as++ va ++ ?dr ?ith ?vr ?ne so zh vi+ ?da sy-
Jason Barnabas 0609 A7335880 he+ kk++ hi+ as++ va++ A924



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 21:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 25 20:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020825232936.02a14238@192.168.0.1>

At 10:19 AM 8/26/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
>[Tim wrote:]
> > >In GURPS, you can get new low-end models out at 2000-3000 CrImp.
> > >If you make them at lower quality, you can bring that down to a
> > >rock-bottom price of about 1000 CrImp, at the cost of increased
> > >maintenance requirements.
> > >Used ones would be cheaper still.
> > Built at what (CT) Tech Level?
>TL 7 with imported TL 9-11 contragrav and thrusters, according to the
>conversion table in GURPS Traveller.

Hot Rod Conversion Kits!

Not quite "street Legal", eh? :-)


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joan of Arc: the patron saint of welders
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/RPG/SV/TRAV/GH/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 21:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Sun Aug 25 20:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Gooneybirds (was: USS North Carolina)
In-Reply-To: <00d901c24cb0$45d383c0$1001a8c0@sauron>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020824105904.009f6910@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020825230207.0216acc0@mail.qrc.com>

At 11:25 PM 8/25/2002, Frankie wrote:
>Douglas Berry wrote :
> > The C-130 is the greatest aircraft ever to leave the face of the Earth.
>
>Sorry, it doesn't even hold a candle to the C-47/DC-3 yet.

I've gotta agree with Frankie here.

ObTrav: In My Traveller Universe, I've assumed that the Beowulf-class free 
trader (and all it's variants) is the 57th equivalent of the DC-3.  It's 
not glamorous, fast, high-tech or even particularly profitable in the face 
of larger, more modern competition.  Most shipyards probably don't even 
build new ones anymore (but any number of places can put one together for 
you out of a salvaged hull and parts on hand).

On the other hand, it's rugged, reliable, easy to repair and easy to find 
parts for, and everyone knows how to run one.  So it's the perfect starship 
for trade exploration, plying the less-frequented routes, or for a band of 
neer-do-wells (PCs) kicking about the galaxy.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 21:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Aug 25 20:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Vilani Chess
In-Reply-To: <OBELLGKPGPMMECPCHOEHOELGINAA.jmlotzn1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <20020825.182133.6y6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail (2002-Aug-17) you write:

>>Well, Nine Man Morris is pretty darned old. And it's both simple and a
>>bear to get *good* at.
>
> 5,000 years in the future, the Vilani have probably conflated it into "Nine
> Man Morris Dancing" . . .
>
> Or perhaps not   :  )
>
>
> I don't want to spend a huge amount of time on this kind of thing,
> but people have been asking what games have survived, and I wanted to
> deal with a couple in GT: Nobles.

There's Windows version of the game (shareware) out there. Want a copy?
:-)

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 21:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Aug 25 20:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Tech Levelling
In-Reply-To: <lfltluk0rocq2fhglkaq24jvjemv56mupr@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020825.172124.0p9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail (2002-Aug-17) you write:

> On Sat, 17 Aug 2002 04:26:03 -0700, Timothy Little
> <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> wrote:
>
>>Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
>>> If everyone is at the same TL, what happens to the tech export
>>> market?  In fact, what happens to the entirety of interstellar
>>> trade?
>
>>That's right.  Nations of the same TL don't do any trade.  That's why
>>only a few small tramp ships a year straggle out of Japan to other
>>modern industrialised countries.
>
> Think cost of transport as an additional factor.  If shipping a car from
> Japan to the US added an additional $1000 per Traveller Displacement Ton
> (or about $1000-1500 per car [I assumed dimensions of 15'x8'x5']) per week,
> and it took a minimum of a week to get from origin to destination, would
> there be as much trade in cars between the US and Japan?  And at that, how
> many cars are really imported from Japan any more?  Most of the Japanese
> companies have set up to do some manufacture here in the US.

Want to drop by the Port of Portland terminals and watch the cars get
unloaded? It's better for Japan's economy to build them there and ship
them out, because that means that the wages for the workers, and the
money for materials are all part of *their* economy.

And they probably *do* spend about a week in transit. It's just that
they've got ships leaving for various ports in the US several times a
day. 

> Current petroleum production techniques haven't really changed all that
> much since about 1940, have they? 

They've changed *considerably*. Things like deep water rigs, imporoved
extraction and drilling techniques. The only thing that's remained the
same is that they drill a hole and pump out the oil. 

> And it's not really cost-effective to
> use those techniques in some areas, like Burma and the US Southwest, is it,
> because those fields don't really produce all that much.  But if you use
> (higher TL) productive techniques there, it's still too expensive to
> compete with the TL5/6 oil coming out of the Arabian peninsula.  And it
> would still be cheaper to get at the more accessible Arabian oil even with
> the same higher TL production techniques.

Then way are their deep sea rigs all over the place?

The main reason middle east oil is in such demand is that "crude oil"
is *not* a uniform product. There are different types, with various
kinds of contaminants.

The Arabian stuff is "light, sweet" crude. The stuff i many places in
the US is heavy and has lots of sulfur. Whic means it isn't nearly as
useful and costs more to turn into things like gasline and deisel.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 21:54:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Aug 25 20:54:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Human Nature or 'WWRD' or 'WWAD'
In-Reply-To: <1828.208.28.190.37.1029632377.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020825.174815.0z7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail (2002-Aug-17), tml@travellercentral.com writes:

> First off, I'd construct a LOT of intelligence scout ships that wait on
> the outskirts of Zhondani systems within jump distance of Imperial
> borders.  These scouts would then act as trip wires as they watch for
> massed fleet build ups.  If a system has only 24 system defense boats (all
> likely trying to hunt down the scouts by the way) in it, and suddenly has
> 100 warships in it and needs to refuel for its push into Imperial
> territory - wouldn't that be a sign for the Imperials to start moving over
> to war alert status?

There's no need to hunt them down. They can jump into the system
somewhere that's (say) a week  away from any likely SDB location (read
any planet/asteroid). 

They can deploy large sensor arrays, observe for days, and then jump
out before anyone can get there.

This means you can't prevent observation of your systems near the
border. 

This also means that invasion fleets will be assembled in empty space
so that they can't easily be observed. 

So the scouts will be observing traffic in the systems and the folks
back at HQ will be looking for changes in the patterns of ship
movements.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 21:58:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Aug 25 20:58:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Zhodani tech development (Was: Victory in the Frontier Wars)
In-Reply-To: <m3ptwerjfd.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20020825.200524.7P7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

> "Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> writes:
>> 
>> From what we've been able to reconstruct from archeology and the
>> oral traditions of the Maori, the primary requirement of
>> colonisation was not the "rugged individualist" but tightly knit
>> cooperative communities (one might also mention the mass extinction
>> of over 50% of native species and the total destruction of our
>> megafauna, but one may assume that future interstellar colonists
>> would be somewhat more environmentally aware).

Not necessarily. At least at first. But the later ones will be, after
the tales (later legends and myths) get around about the fate of
colonies that die horribly because they made some fatal mistake with
the local ecology. 

Kill just the right species, or perturnb the population the wrong way
and you'll get things like a feedback loop that drops the atmospheric
O2 below breathable levels faster than you can evacuate. 

Or drives it *up*, to the point where even damp organic tissues (eg
human bodies) are flammable in air.

Even major changes in plant cover can lead to things like runaway
erosion. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 22:02:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Aug 25 21:02:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Human Nature or 'WWRD' or 'WWAD'
In-Reply-To: <3d5f8b21.3050195@post.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020825.180811.0d9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail (a week ago) you write:

> For that matter, what if the Zhodani fleet assembles at an uncharted
> star or a fuel dump in deep space?

There *are* no "uncharted stars" within range. 

Given the ability to make astronomical observations from space at
points parsecs apart, you can get detailed, *accurate* maps of stars
(and larger planets) *sectors* away.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 22:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug 25 21:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Knowing and doing
Message-ID: <16.24507796.2a9affd7@aol.com>

 >>It becomes a little more difficult to explain why a TL 6 world stays
 >>TL 6 after a few hundred to a thousand years of significant trade with
 >>a large number of worlds having higher tech levels.
 >
 >Simple. Assuming for purposes of argument that a significant amount of
 >trade will inevitably raise the TL of the lower-TL trade partner (which
 >is, I'd like to point out, only an assumption -- a pretty plausible
 >assumption, but nevertheless only an unproven assumption), the fact that a
 >world stays at TL 6 for centuries merely shows that said world does not
 >have a significant amount of trade with higher-TL trade partners.

Even if trade were miniscule, there are still problems.  Trade does not 
consist only of goods and services, it also consists of ideas.  If the low 
tech world in question is at all dynamic and forward looking it wouldn't neet 
vast fleets bringing trade goods, it would only need a few hundred professors 
and industrialists to jump start its progress.  A tech 6 world would 
represent an enormous profit opportunity for a tech 9 businessman who sees a 
society capable of advancing in certain directions and knows how to direct 
that advancement.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 22:11:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Sun Aug 25 21:11:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <B98EC0AC.6AE3F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000001c24cad$0625f800$6501a8c0@Darla>

> 
> Anyone have some numbers on how much heat you can radiate away vs. the
> amount of waste generated by the powerplant and drives?  I suspect
that
> most
> Traveller ships end up being mobile incinerators.
> 

I haven't worked thermal control problems since undergraduate days, but
I dug out my notes and...

AFAIK the maximum energy (across all wavelengths) radiated by an ideal
radiator (blackbody) into vacuum is determined by the fourth power of
the temperature of the radiator times the Stephan-Boltzmann constant
(empirical value: 5.729 x 10**-12 watts per square centimeter per degree
Kelvin**4).

So, a 1 square meter (10,000 square centimeters) radiator operating at
1000K (about 730C) that is 85% as effective as a blackbody, would
radiate:
(5.729 x 10**-12) x (10000) x (1000)**4 x (.85) = 4.870 x 10**4 watts,
or about 50 kW.  

The answer is dependent on how much of the external area of the ship is
radiating, how hot you can run the radiators and how good (close to
blackbody) your radiator technology is.

Corrections are welcome from anyone who has more current knowledge in
thermal problems.

Tom Barnes


Source:
Dr. Everett Jones
Class Notes for Viscous Fluid Flow and Thermal Control of Aerospace
Vehicles
Department of Aerospace Engineering
University of Maryland
1976


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 22:14:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sun Aug 25 21:14:45 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 Characters
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020825232939.026f3eb0@192.168.0.1>

At 08:25 PM 8/24/2002 +0100, Nick wrote:
>Hi
>I remember somebody was creating a ships crew of T20 characters from the
>Light T20 rules, If that person reads this could you send me a copy of the
>characters off list so I may use them at GenConUK to run an adventure using
>the T20 rules Many thanks in advance
>
>     A Traveller player and referee


That would have been me.  I ended up submitting them to CotI.
So you would have to ask them for them <http://www.travellerrpg.com/>, 
since they haven't been posted to the Rogue's Gallery yet.


-----------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Whether you're Bill Clinton or the head of a large
corporation like Enron, it seems the best defense
in any legal matter is to act like you just arrived
on the planet." -- Spencer F. Katt
-----------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 22:18:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun Aug 25 21:18:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Names of Tigresses
In-Reply-To: <f9.20de776a.2a9153f4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020825.201336.8o1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail (a week ago) you write:

>> his royal furry magnifence Lord Fafrhd, votes for Coon Cat to be 
>> included, and demand another 500 chihuhuas as tribute for the 
>> slight if its not included
>
> Sorry to introduce an element of PC into this but I would feel deeply
> uncomfortable using "coon" as part of a ship name. While I'm aware
> that in the US it is a contraction of racoon, in the UK it is used as
> an insult directed at black people and belongs in the dustbin of
> history.

It was used that way in the US too. But that doesn't change the fact
that the term *does* have another meaning. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 22:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug 25 21:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Human Nature or 'WWRD' or 'WWAD'
In-Reply-To: <20020825.174815.0z7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <1828.208.28.190.37.1029632377.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <20020825.174815.0z7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <3980.64.8.3.28.1030334979.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

I would have to agree with Leondard in his assessment about looking for
traffic patterns.  Also, if one uses the GURPS TRAVELLER model - scouts
can even jump into deep space and listen for the electromagnetic pattern
(granted, greatly delayed time wise) for massed ships arriving and leaving
one central location  in deep space.  Question though?  Do ships have to
start from the same point to reach the same exit point?  Is it not
possible to stage in multiple areas and then time the invasion to meet at
the same exit point?


> In mail (2002-Aug-17), tml@travellercentral.com writes:
>
>> First off, I'd construct a LOT of intelligence scout ships that wait
>> on the outskirts of Zhondani systems within jump distance of Imperial
>> borders.  These scouts would then act as trip wires as they watch for
>> massed fleet build ups.  If a system has only 24 system defense boats
>> (all likely trying to hunt down the scouts by the way) in it, and
>> suddenly has 100 warships in it and needs to refuel for its push into

>> Imperial territory - wouldn't that be a sign for the Imperials to
>> start moving over to war alert status?
>
> There's no need to hunt them down. They can jump into the system
> somewhere that's (say) a week  away from any likely SDB location (read
> any planet/asteroid).
>
> They can deploy large sensor arrays, observe for days, and then jump
> out before anyone can get there.
>
> This means you can't prevent observation of your systems near the
> border.
>
> This also means that invasion fleets will be assembled in empty space
> so that they can't easily be observed.
>
> So the scouts will be observing traffic in the systems and the folks
> back at HQ will be looking for changes in the patterns of ship
> movements.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 22:30:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Steven Hudson)
Date: Sun Aug 25 21:30:23 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Source for VERY Cool Minatures!
Message-ID: <200208260209.g7Q29gO02096@laser.lightspeed.bc.ca>

>As odd as the source might sound, I've found a source for very cool
>minatures for Sci-Fi games such as Striker.  If you're into such things and
>haven't seen them yet, check out Mechwarrior: Dark Age from WizKids Games
>(Mage Knight).  http://www.wizkidsgames.com/mwdarkage/
>
>While the Mech's aren't appropriate for Traveller, they've got totally cool
>tanks and decent looking infantry!  The only thing they seem to be lacking
>is aircraft.

  They're "better" (being SF) than most micromachines, but 
I'm really hard-pressed to imagine that anyone who doesn't 
need their minis to come pre-painted wouldn't be far better
off going through normal SF micro lines in metal or hard
platic - even GW <spit> is cheaper and offers better stuff.

  Steven Hudson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 22:35:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ken Murphy)
Date: Sun Aug 25 21:35:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Non-canon weapon tech
Message-ID: <F204gzHsuYvS1Dbl5vU0001d93a@hotmail.com>

   Hey gang,
   John answered my request by knocking out some quickly-cadged stuff on 
laser submunitions. Most excellent sir, thanks bunches :)
   *Still* trying to think of something rulesy I can contribute :)
  -Ken-

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 22:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 25 21:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020825232936.02a14238@192.168.0.1>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020825232936.02a14238@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020826144030.A32334@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> Hot Rod Conversion Kits!
> 
> Not quite "street Legal", eh? :-)

Probably not at TL 9 or above, but I suspect that something like it
would be quite common on worlds of tech levels 5 to 8.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 23:01:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug 25 22:01:04 2002
Subject: [TML] test
Message-ID: <000f01c24c9e$bd51e5c0$83000140@k62500>

Hello Martin J Dougherty,

Received your Test on TML, test appears to be within specifications.

Tom Rux


--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
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---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 23:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 25 22:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <000001c24cad$0625f800$6501a8c0@Darla>
References: <B98EC0AC.6AE3F%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <000001c24cad$0625f800$6501a8c0@Darla>
Message-ID: <20020826150537.B32334@freeman.little-possums.net>

Thomas Barnes wrote:
> Stephan-Boltzmann constant (empirical value: 5.729 x 10**-12 watts
> per square centimeter per degree Kelvin**4).

It can be derived theoretically in terms of more fundamental
constants:  (pi^2/60) * (k^4 /(hbar^3 * c^2))

In SI units it has the rather mnemonic value 5.67e-8 (W m^-2 K^-4).


> So, a 1 square meter (10,000 square centimeters) radiator operating
> at 1000K [...] or about 50 kW.

Yes, that's about right.  If half of the ship was covered with such
radiators as the only energy dissipation method, then a type S could
radiate about 20 MW.

More likely the drives would account for most of the power consumption
and would operate at much higher effective temperatures, so the total
power radiated could be much higher.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 23:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Sun Aug 25 22:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Human Nature or 'WWRD' or 'WWAD'
In-Reply-To: <3980.64.8.3.28.1030334979.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <20020825.174815.0z7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
 <1828.208.28.190.37.1029632377.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <20020825.174815.0z7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020826003049.027995e8@mail.qrc.com>

At 12:09 AM 8/26/2002, hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>Do ships have to start from the same point to reach the same exit 
>point?  Is it not possible to stage in multiple areas and then time the 
>invasion to meet at the same exit point?

IMTU, no - it's not possible to guarantee exact arrival time and location 
for a fleet jumping in from different origin points.  I've always ruled 
that for a fleet to make a coordinated jump, they must use the exact same 
navigational data, and all ships must jump from the same origin to the same 
destination, at the exact same time.

If this is done, all ships emerge from jumpspace at the same time, and in 
the same relative positions as they entered.  In effect, all ships share 
the same jump duration (147 + 6d6 hours) and the same targeting error 
(1000km x 1d6 per parsec jumped).  Ships that jump from different systems, 
different locations within the same system (even a few light-seconds), or 
at different times will each have their own jump duration and targeting 
error.

IMTU, engineering skill can be used to try to control jump duration, and 
navigation skill can be used to minimize the targeting error.  A successful 
roll against engineering skill at the easiest task difficulty allows the 
engineer to choose the value 1 duration die; increasing the difficulty of 
the task allows one additional die to be controlled per level of increased 
difficulty.  Failure of the task may have ill effects such as jump sickness 
or increased duration in jump.  Critical failures may damage the drive or 
cause misjumps.

The navigator can attempt a middle-difficulty task against navigation 
skill; if successful, the navigator can either choose the direction of the 
targeting error (but not the magnitude of the error), or apply their 
navigation skill as a negative DM to the magnitude of the error (error is 
never less than zero).  Increasing the difficulty of the task by two steps 
will allow the navigator to influence both magnitude and direction of jump 
targeting error.  Failure is usually benign (the referee may scatter the 
ship in "interesting" directions).  Critical failure indicates bad 
targeting, scatter the ship by several light seconds.

Thus, it is quite possible for the PC's arch-rivals to leave Regina with a 
two-hour head start, and the PC's can use their skills to pass them in jump 
space and arrive at the exit point first.  It's also possible that they 
could arrive a day or more after the first ship - it depends on the rolls, 
and the skills of both groups.

However, it is not possible for a fleet to jump in to an assault point from 
a half-dozen widely-scattered assembly points, unless you have the luxury 
of being able to wait - several hours up to a day or more - for all ships 
to arrive before commencing operations.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 23:16:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Sun Aug 25 22:16:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Human Nature or 'WWRD' or 'WWAD'
In-Reply-To: <3980.64.8.3.28.1030334979.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <20020825.174815.0z7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
 <1828.208.28.190.37.1029632377.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <20020825.174815.0z7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020826003049.027995e8@mail.qrc.com>

At 12:09 AM 8/26/2002, hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>Do ships have to start from the same point to reach the same exit 
>point?  Is it not possible to stage in multiple areas and then time the 
>invasion to meet at the same exit point?

IMTU, no - it's not possible to guarantee exact arrival time and location 
for a fleet jumping in from different origin points.  I've always ruled 
that for a fleet to make a coordinated jump, they must use the exact same 
navigational data, and all ships must jump from the same origin to the same 
destination, at the exact same time.

If this is done, all ships emerge from jumpspace at the same time, and in 
the same relative positions as they entered.  In effect, all ships share 
the same jump duration (147 + 6d6 hours) and the same targeting error 
(1000km x 1d6 per parsec jumped).  Ships that jump from different systems, 
different locations within the same system (even a few light-seconds), or 
at different times will each have their own jump duration and targeting 
error.

IMTU, engineering skill can be used to try to control jump duration, and 
navigation skill can be used to minimize the targeting error.  A successful 
roll against engineering skill at the easiest task difficulty allows the 
engineer to choose the value 1 duration die; increasing the difficulty of 
the task allows one additional die to be controlled per level of increased 
difficulty.  Failure of the task may have ill effects such as jump sickness 
or increased duration in jump.  Critical failures may damage the drive or 
cause misjumps.

The navigator can attempt a middle-difficulty task against navigation 
skill; if successful, the navigator can either choose the direction of the 
targeting error (but not the magnitude of the error), or apply their 
navigation skill as a negative DM to the magnitude of the error (error is 
never less than zero).  Increasing the difficulty of the task by two steps 
will allow the navigator to influence both magnitude and direction of jump 
targeting error.  Failure is usually benign (the referee may scatter the 
ship in "interesting" directions).  Critical failure indicates bad 
targeting, scatter the ship by several light seconds.

Thus, it is quite possible for the PC's arch-rivals to leave Regina with a 
two-hour head start, and the PC's can use their skills to pass them in jump 
space and arrive at the exit point first.  It's also possible that they 
could arrive a day or more after the first ship - it depends on the rolls, 
and the skills of both groups.

However, it is not possible for a fleet to jump in to an assault point from 
a half-dozen widely-scattered assembly points, unless you have the luxury 
of being able to wait - several hours up to a day or more - for all ships 
to arrive before commencing operations.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 23:20:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 25 22:20:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <B98EC0AC.6AE3F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.1.6.0.20020825164205.00b8f008@mailhost.efn.org> <B98EC0AC.6AE3F%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020826122526.E31994@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> Anyone have some numbers on how much heat you can radiate away
> vs. the amount of waste generated by the powerplant and drives?  I
> suspect that most Traveller ships end up being mobile incinerators.

It doesn't look terribly bad to me.  My ship the Beuaty Queen, for
example, is a 400 dton freighter with about 2000 m^2 of surface area.
In normal space, it uses about 70 MW, 90% of it in the thrusters which
undoubtably operate much hotter than the rest of the ship.

The rest of the ship's system use 7 MW, for a black-body temperature
of about 500 K.  That's not too bad, well short of even the dullest
red heat.  You wouldn't want to touch it with bare hands, and some
areas would no doubt be hotter than others.  Easily within even
current-day material limits though, and the interior can be kept
cooler without much difficulty (part of the function of life support).

If everything but life support was shut down, it would radiate only
about 400 kW for a black-body temperature of 240 K, well below the
freezing point of water.  In Earthlike orbit, it would probably sit at
around 280 K due to absorption of sunlight.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 23:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 25 22:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Nebula worlds
In-Reply-To: <002101c24c96$0159c160$2f7de40c@loki>
References: <004c01c24c7f$474a3b80$a533f7c2@ptrevor> <002101c24c96$0159c160$2f7de40c@loki>
Message-ID: <20020826123334.F31994@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mark Ayers wrote:
> In addition, my guess is that being in the nebula would be like
> being in a light fog. You don't see it very near you but it appears
> thicker and thicker as you look away from your location.

Yes, even the densest nebulas are so thin that a mere few tens of AU
would be completely transparent to an unaided eye.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 23:32:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug 25 22:32:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump co-ordination (Was Human Nature...)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020826003049.027995e8@mail.qrc.com>
References: <20020825.174815.0z7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
 <1828.208.28.190.37.1029632377.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <20020825.174815.0z7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020826003049.027995e8@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <1302.64.8.3.28.1030339820.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

Hello Derek,
  So, lets say we have sychronized time pieces to within 5 minutes of each
  other for all of 100 ships.  33 ships in Group A, 33 ships in Group B,
  33 ships in Group C, and 1 ship in group D.  All are within 4 parsecs of
  Earth.  All have current up to date data on Earth's orbits, planetary
  and stellar speeds and proper motion.  The intent it so appear behind
  Pluto's orbit.  Group A is to show up in staging area A, Group B in B's
  area, and C in C's area - all within a Set distance of each other (to
  account for maximum spread of distance errors due to max accuracy
  possible from a 4 parsec distance).  Group D is to appear between
  Neptune and Pluto's orbit.

In your game world, assuming that all four groups leave from different
"stars" - they can't arrive within the +/- 1 day lee-way of the OTU
physics?  Hmmmm.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 23:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug 25 22:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Prevalence of grav vehicles
Message-ID: <1097b3106538.1065381097b3@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: richard honeycutt <richard@usisp.com>
Date: Sunday, August 25, 2002 7:28 am
Subject: Re: [TML] re: Prevalence of grav vehicles


<<snip>>
> 
> >Accidents in urban areas will be avoided by use of grav traffic 
> control.>
>    Great. Cops will be able to control where you land, travel 
> between 
> areas and generally
> dictate where you can and cannot go in a grav vehicle. A computer 
> based 
> attack on that network
> can snarl traffic and cause deaths of many if it fails. A pimply 
> kid can 
> bring a city to its knees
> with a denial of service attack. Or maybe just a bug in the latest 
> upgrade to it.

Now you know why Virus had such an impact.... ;-)

"Virus:  It's not just for starships anymore."




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 23:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Aug 25 22:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <20020826150537.B32334@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <B98F0E4C.6AEB5%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/25/02 10:05 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote=
:

> Thomas Barnes wrote:
>> Stephan-Boltzmann constant (empirical value: 5.729 x 10**-12 watts
>> per square centimeter per degree Kelvin**4).
>=20
> It can be derived theoretically in terms of more fundamental
> constants:  (pi^2/60) * (k^4 /(hbar^3 * c^2))
>=20
> In SI units it has the rather mnemonic value 5.67e-8 (W m^-2 K^-4).
>=20
>=20
>> So, a 1 square meter (10,000 square centimeters) radiator operating
>> at 1000K [...] or about 50 kW.
>=20
> Yes, that's about right.  If half of the ship was covered with such
> radiators as the only energy dissipation method, then a type S could
> radiate about 20 MW.
>=20
> More likely the drives would account for most of the power consumption
> and would operate at much higher effective temperatures, so the total
> power radiated could be much higher.

OK, we've established how much power could be theoretically radiated
(hopefully, none is being radiated back to the ship).

Now the question is, how much heat is being produced (i.e. are we aable to
radiate enough heat to keep the ship at a livable temperature).  And it goe=
s
without saying that we are not seeing 100% efficiency transferring the wast=
e
heat from the drives to the radiator.  And how does one get waste heat to
flow only to the radiator in the first place.  In looking at any canon ship
layout, the drives are within the hull, typically in space shared with the
passengers and crew.  What about the fraction of waste heat that escapes
here.  You are not likely to pump heat from a space at 303k to 1000k with a
great deal of efficiency are you? (That's a question).

I'm having a hard time visualizing how you get all of you waste heat to jus=
t
the radiators (operating at 1000k) and keep the rest of your ship at a nice
296k (or whatever room temperature is in Kelvin).

Also, another question for you boffins.  Suppose you had something like
towed radiators that could be deployed and retracted. Something fairly
large?  Am I wrong in thinking that the same energy radiated from a surface
100 times the size would mean a lower temperature.

Sorry for all the questions.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 23:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 25 22:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump co-ordination (Was Human Nature...)
In-Reply-To: <1302.64.8.3.28.1030339820.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <20020825.174815.0z7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <1828.208.28.190.37.1029632377.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <20020825.174815.0z7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020826003049.027995e8@mail.qrc.com> <1302.64.8.3.28.1030339820.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020826155149.C32334@freeman.little-possums.net>

hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>   The intent it so appear behind Pluto's orbit.

"Behind" from whose point of view?

I presume you mean to arrive so that Pluto is blocking line of sight.
The trouble is that there are many lines of sight, and you can't
arrive any closer to Pluto than 100 diameters.  So the "eclipse" cone
has a half-angle of no more than 17' of arc.  Any sensor outside that
cone has a good chance of seeing you arrive.

Of course, the position error from jumping 4 parsecs is significantly
greater than Pluto's diameter, and it will take you more than a week
to get to the inner system from there anyway.


This is pretty much just a poorer form of deep-space fleet formation.
If you're going to form up near Pluto, you may as well form up at
least a light-week out.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sun Aug 25 23:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 25 22:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <B98EC319.6AE46%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020826095127.A31994@freeman.little-possums.net> <B98EC319.6AE46%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020826115157.D31994@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> Won't it be possible to build a radiator that produces an output
> like your vessel, in the same way that current naval ships use
> things like blip enhancers to make escort vessels look like the
> carriers they are protecting?

Making an escort look like a carrier is quite a different matter from
making a disposable decoy look like a capital ship.  You have to make
it match in many respects, not just strength of return of some
incoming active sensor ping.

It would be a bit easier if you know in advance where all the enemy
sensors are, what sort of analysis they're each doing, and how fast
they're moving relative to you.

In short: I can imagine that a smaller ship might be able to fool some
sensors some of the time into thinking that it was a ship a few times
bigger.  What I don't buy is a decoy massing a few hundred tons
fooling high-tech sensors into thinking that it is a few hundred
thousand tons.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 00:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sun Aug 25 23:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump co-ordination (Was Human Nature...)
In-Reply-To: <20020826155149.C32334@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20020825.174815.0z7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
 <1828.208.28.190.37.1029632377.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <20020825.174815.0z7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020826003049.027995e8@mail.qrc.com>
 <1302.64.8.3.28.1030339820.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <20020826155149.C32334@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <1786.64.8.3.28.1030341649.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

Hello Tim,
  Actually, I was just using "pluto" as an illustrative point.  The thing
  is, the position of a planet is well known enough, that it could be used
  as a staging point for an incoming fleet.  All such ships inbound and
  meeting near pluto (and behind as in not on an intersect course with it,
  but with pluto moving away from the staging area) can be told "Take
  Vector A, with a speed as close as possible to X meters per second,
  etc..." such that all ships arrive with the proper (more or less)
  direction, and will scatter according to known and expected error of
  margins.  Thereupon, the ships spend the next 48 hours manuevering into
  a close formation as required by tactical doctrine and proceed upon
  their mission.

  This "technique" of arriving at the same jump point from divergent
  locations should be just as accurate as ships leaving from the *exact*
  same location.  At least, that is how it "feels" from where I sit...  ;)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 00:06:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Aug 25 23:06:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <20020826122526.E31994@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <B98F1298.6AEBB%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/25/02 7:25 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:

> Tod Glenn wrote:
>> Anyone have some numbers on how much heat you can radiate away
>> vs. the amount of waste generated by the powerplant and drives?  I
>> suspect that most Traveller ships end up being mobile incinerators.
>=20
> It doesn't look terribly bad to me.  My ship the Beuaty Queen, for
> example, is a 400 dton freighter with about 2000 m^2 of surface area.
> In normal space, it uses about 70 MW, 90% of it in the thrusters which
> undoubtably operate much hotter than the rest of the ship.

Bear with me again.  Where do you derive the value of 70 MW?  I'm a CT
person, so I'm used to thinking in terms of High Guard, which only tells me
how much fuel I use in my powerplants and jump drive.
>=20
> The rest of the ship's system use 7 MW, for a black-body temperature
> of about 500 K.  That's not too bad, well short of even the dullest
> red heat.  You wouldn't want to touch it with bare hands, and some
> areas would no doubt be hotter than others.  Easily within even
> current-day material limits though, and the interior can be kept
> cooler without much difficulty (part of the function of life support).
>=20
> If everything but life support was shut down, it would radiate only
> about 400 kW for a black-body temperature of 240 K, well below the
> freezing point of water.  In Earthlike orbit, it would probably sit at
> around 280 K due to absorption of sunlight.

This still seems like black magic or 'physics land'.  All your heat gets
perfectly radiated.  Your life support system deals with the minor matter o=
f
a couple of hundred degrees k so your ship stays all frosty inside.  Why
doesn't temperature tend to equalize throughout the ship?  That's the part
I'm having trouble grokking.

Let's say I take a model of the ship with a radiator, and I but a torch on
the radiator and bring it to 1000 K.  That heat is going to flow to the res=
t
of the model eventually.  Certainly the most remote part wont be as hot, bu=
t
it will be hotter than I like.  Why doesn't the same thing happen on the
actual ship.  Heat has to flow to the radiator, so it can't be 100%
thermally isolated from the rest of the ship.  Why doesn't heat 'backflow'
from the radiator.  The radiator is dumping head by radiation, but
conduction is a more efficient way to move heat, right?


--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 00:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sun Aug 25 23:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <20020826115157.D31994@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <B98F144A.6AEBC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/25/02 6:51 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:

>=20
> Making an escort look like a carrier is quite a different matter from
> making a disposable decoy look like a capital ship.  You have to make
> it match in many respects, not just strength of return of some
> incoming active sensor ping.
>=20
> It would be a bit easier if you know in advance where all the enemy
> sensors are, what sort of analysis they're each doing, and how fast
> they're moving relative to you.
>=20
> In short: I can imagine that a smaller ship might be able to fool some
> sensors some of the time into thinking that it was a ship a few times
> bigger.  What I don't buy is a decoy massing a few hundred tons
> fooling high-tech sensors into thinking that it is a few hundred
> thousand tons.
>=20

OK.  So what about other methods of defeating sensors.  You've ruled out
decoys.  Are there equivalents of' wild weasels' or chaff.  I just have a
real problem with perfect sensors that can detect everything and can't be
defeated.  I mean some of the previous post suggest sensors that are almost
'Star Trekkish' in their accuracy.

"The ships is the ISS Paulson, a 500 ton destroyer.  According to her drive
emissions, she's got missed her last oil change, and the left engine mount
bolt is 3 foot-pounds too loose."

OK, that's an exaggeration, naturally.  But what is proposed is that:

1. It is impossible to escape detection
2. It is impossible to fool the sensors with decoys

Am I missing anything?

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 00:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sun Aug 25 23:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <B98F0E4C.6AEB5%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020826150537.B32334@freeman.little-possums.net> <B98F0E4C.6AEB5%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020826162251.D32334@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> And it goes without saying that we are not seeing 100% efficiency
> transferring the waste heat from the drives to the radiator.

I think it does need challenging.  Most types of maneuver drives are
going to be very efficient radiators in their own right.


>  And how does one get waste heat to flow only to the radiator in the
> first place.

A combination of TL 0 and TL 6 inventions called "insulation" and
"refrigeration" respectively.


>  You are not likely to pump heat from a space at 303k to 1000k with
> a great deal of efficiency are you? (That's a question).

Fortunately little of the waste heat will be generated at 300 K.
Almost all of it will be at 1000 K or more to begin with.  Yes, there
will be small amounts of waste 300 K heat that will need to be
inefficiently pumped up to 1000 K, mainly from life support.  However,
they are really just a drop in the ocean.

Jump drives, maneuver drives, and weapons are the major power
consumers.  All are likely to generate heat at extreme temperatures.
The first two are likely to be self-radiating as well.

(Theoretically, you could actually recover a lot of useful power from
the waste heat of such high temperature devices when lowering it to
only 1000 K)


> Am I wrong in thinking that the same energy radiated from a surface
> 100 times the size would mean a lower temperature.

It would, yes.  About 3 times cooler, all else being equal.

Of course, getting extra surface area by putting lots of radiator fins
in a confined space is cheating and doesn't really work :)  It does
bring the radiated power closer to the black-body theoretical limit,
but that limit is based on the minimum surface area that will enclose
the radiating body (the "convex hull").


> Sorry for all the questions.

I probably wouldn't read this list without such questions :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 00:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Sun Aug 25 23:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Too much time on our hands
In-Reply-To: <20020825.143958.1H1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <002c01c24d68$ca599040$1001a8c0@sauron>

Leonard Erickson wrote :
> In mail (2002-Aug-17) you write:
> > I pulled that in a modern-day CORPS game.  With five seconds left on
> > the clock, I called out "BOOM!"  When the players complained about
> > there still being time on the clock, i told them "You are dealing
> > with an insane bomber, and you expect him to be honest with his
> > timepieces?
>
> Well, that *does* require either a second timing module, or wiring the
> detonation circuit to the disply thru some middling fancy electronics
> to decode the segment pattern.

Well if we're talking about an electronic system, as opppsed to a
physical timing system, it just means initializing the display circuitry
at plus 5 seconds (starting it at 5005 instead of 5000). the timing is
the same, it's just that the display never reaches zero.

Alternatively a five second capacitive or digital delay line between the
clock and the display is not fancy electronics at all, much lower tech
and easier to implement than an LCD display anyway.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 00:41:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Sun Aug 25 23:41:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <20020825232232.358c3fff.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <002d01c24d6a$a52e6af0$1001a8c0@sauron>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Jens Rydholm
> Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2002 2:23 PM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
>
>
> On Sun, 25 Aug 2002 20:21:31 -0700
> Frankie <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote:
>
> > How do you measure power oputput when you haven't got a
> > meter attached to the generator, and the ship could be radiating in
all sorts of
> > directions, on thousands of wavelengths, and differently in each ?
>
> The radiation will be roughly equal in all directions.

Why ?

In fact, I'd say it would almost be certainly be very uneven.
It definiely is on modern ships.

> The energy will be spread out over the entire EM spectrum,
> but that's not a problem.

Why isn't it ?
How do you measure the entire spectrum ?
How do you know which part of the spectrum the ship will be radiating
in?

What of all the ships excess energy is radiated using directional
microwaves
aimed away from the target planet?

> You need to measure the radiation output,

Again how ?

How do you actually _measure_  power output ?

This is the sticking point of this method.

Sure you can do all sorts of things _if_ you can measure power output,
but how do you actually do it ?

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 01:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug 26 00:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <B98F1298.6AEBB%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020826122526.E31994@freeman.little-possums.net> <B98F1298.6AEBB%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020826170033.E32334@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> Bear with me again.  Where do you derive the value of 70 MW?

I used GURPS Vehicles to design the ship.  Power consumption is listed
for all major pieces of equipment.


> Why doesn't temperature tend to equalize throughout the ship?
> That's the part I'm having trouble grokking.

It tends to, but you have good insulators and pump out the rest via
refrigeration.  In fact, the insulators can be drastically more
effective in a vacuum environment.

If you don't want active refrigeration systems, you can just isolate
the "heavy duty" 1000 K radiators from the "life support" radiators
running at perhaps 270 K (-3 C).

Heat from the drives and weapons goes into the heavy duty radiators,
dropping from who knows how many thousands of kelvin to the radiator
temperature.

Excess heat in the life support goes to the 270 K radiators, which can
take up a smaller patch of hull since they don't need to radiate
anywhere near as much power.  There will be some leakage from heavy
duty systems to life support, but you can theoretically make this as
small as you like with good enough insulation.


> The radiator is dumping head by radiation, but conduction is a more
> efficient way to move heat, right?

That depends upon the medium of conduction.  Heat conduction through
vacuum is nonexistent.  Conduction through glass wool in vacuum would
be microscopic (much better than in air).

It is even less true when you're talking about high temperatures,
since radiation goes with the 4th power of temperature, while
conduction increases more slowly.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 01:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Mon Aug 26 00:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020825164205.00b8f008@mailhost.efn.org>
Message-ID: <002e01c24d6f$0af01510$1001a8c0@sauron>

Kelly St.Clair wrote :
> "Frankie" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> asked:
>
> > > All energy generated on board the ship must be radiated away
> > > somehow (or the ship will melt). What the defender does is
> > > measure the amount of energy radiating from that blip over there.
> >
> >Again, HOW ?
> >
> >How do you measure power oputput when you haven't got a
> > meter attached
> >to the generator, and the ship could be radiating in all sorts of
> >directions, on thousands of wavelengths, and differently in each ?
>
> What you're missing is that these ships aren't radiating in radio or
> something (well, they are, but that's beside the point);
> they're radiating  HEAT, and lots of it.

And what you're missing is my question ! <grin>

I'm not arguing they won't be radiating, I'm asking how do you _measure_
the power output from the radiation ?

I will argue that the radiation is neccessarily "heat", or
omnidirectional, as I mentioned elswhere, excess power could be radiated
using directional microwave beams. Sure there'd probably be spillage,
but if a majority of excess power could be dissipated directionally, and
this could be turne on or off,  all you'd know was that something was
there, not neccesarily _what_ was there.

I suspect that if you are reliant on that sort of detection, then A.I
interpretative systems (and experienced sensor ops people) could look at
their readings and say "I'm betting, given we know that BatRons 67, 34,
and 56 are in jump range, that that signature is a pair of Tigress with
a fighter screen. Given we know  Lioness II is damaged, it's probably
not 34, which leaves us with .... etc. " but exact knowledge is still
going to be difficult until you get

Personally, I like the massed, cheap one-shot sensor networks, that
detect motion near-by, take a photo and burn out sending the image to a
predetermined point.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 01:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 26 00:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Prevalence of grav vehicles
Message-ID: <OF7C625A52.D3408C81-ONCA256C21.00276E29-CA256C21.002798FC@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Richard wrote:
> Great. Cops will be able to control where you land, travel 
> between 
> areas and generally
> dictate where you can and cannot go in a grav vehicle.

See "Ringworld" for details - this is EXACTLY what happens to their 
fly-cycles.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------



Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 01:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 26 00:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
Message-ID: <OF606D47C3.80C88457-ONCA256C21.0027ABFE-CA256C21.0027E600@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Tim wrote:
>What I don't buy is a decoy massing a few hundred tons
>fooling high-tech sensors into thinking that it is a few hundred
>thousand tons.

Ah - what you need is a decoy that deploys an expandable bubble that 
merely *looks* like it it a few hundred thousand tons. Won't fool a 
densitometer or any close-up examination, but isn't the range on those 
things limited anyway?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------



Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 01:24:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug 26 00:24:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <002d01c24d6a$a52e6af0$1001a8c0@sauron>
References: <20020825232232.358c3fff.jenry023@student.liu.se> <002d01c24d6a$a52e6af0$1001a8c0@sauron>
Message-ID: <20020826171709.F32334@freeman.little-possums.net>

Frankie wrote:
> In fact, I'd say it would almost be certainly be very uneven.
> It definiely is on modern ships.

Not three-orders-of-magnitude uneven.


> > The energy will be spread out over the entire EM spectrum,
> > but that's not a problem.
> 
> Why isn't it ?

Because it is not difficult to capture a very broad band of it.


> What of all the ships excess energy is radiated using directional
> microwaves aimed away from the target planet?

Then it will probably be picked up by all sensors that aren't at the
planet.  Furthermore, such a significant departure from a black body
means that it will have to radiate *much* more, and at higher
temperature, than it would otherwise.  The more narrow-band and
directional you make the radiation, the more energy you have to expend
to pump it up to the higher temperatures you need.

If your thrusters aren't reactionless, You can't even do that -- your
exhaust will radiate independently and pretty much omnidirectionally.


> How do you actually _measure_  power output ?
> 
> This is the sticking point of this method.

You collate the results from your sensors in various directions from
the target.  You average for mean power output, look at the power
spectrum for temperature and quite a few other things, look at
variations with time and direction to get a good idea of other
features of the radiation profile such as directionality.

Getting an average power from radiated energy is just
photocalorimetry, a well-understood science.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 01:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 26 00:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
Message-ID: <OF9BAF9456.8D535BC0-ONCA256C21.00281754-CA256C21.0028CA53@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Tim replied to Tod:
>> Bear with me again.  Where do you derive the value of 70 MW?
>
>I used GURPS Vehicles to design the ship.  Power consumption is listed
>for all major pieces of equipment.

There's your answer, then - different rule sets.

CT states that 1 EP (High Guard) = 250 MW.

Later on, game system designers realised this is really 'way too high. HG 
equipment draws too much power, therefore HG power plants create too much 
power, and this leads to heat problems.

Forex, a single ship's laser draws 1 EP in power. Add this up, and very 
soon the excess heat will (in theory) melt the ship's hull.

The meta-game answer is to either change your simulation rules (eg. re-peg 
the EP/MW ratio), or simply accept the original rules and change the way 
sensors work (degrade them) to match the game rules, rather than reality.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 01:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug 26 00:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <002e01c24d6f$0af01510$1001a8c0@sauron>
References: <5.1.1.6.0.20020825164205.00b8f008@mailhost.efn.org> <002e01c24d6f$0af01510$1001a8c0@sauron>
Message-ID: <20020826172801.G32334@freeman.little-possums.net>

Frankie wrote:
> excess power could be radiated using directional microwave beams.

Not excess *heat* power.  High-entropy heat is qualitatively different
from low-entropy useful power.


> Personally, I like the massed, cheap one-shot sensor networks, that
> detect motion near-by, take a photo and burn out sending the image
> to a predetermined point.

Sounds wasteful to me, and brings up the question of how "nearby" you
envisage motion detection to be easy enough for a disposable sensor.

I like massed, *persistent* sensor networks.  Rather than burning out
on a one-shot picture, they give you real-time updates via laser link,
and can be remotely directed to look in specific directions for much
better sensitivity.  With sufficient technology, they might even be
capable of aperture synthesis in longer wavelengths.

They probably wouldn't cost much more than your disposable sensors.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 01:35:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Mon Aug 26 00:35:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Aramis SS Navy Assets IMTU [Vlong]
References: <3D685022.9126F099@mail.cswnet.com>
Message-ID: <3D69D7FA.2050400@yarranet.net.au>

Roseberry wrote:

> Phill Webb wrote once along time ago:
> 
>>Hey Dan do you think you could do Aramis as of 1106?
>>Pretty please?
>>
> 
 
> Aramis Subsector Naval Assets:


Great stuff, but now I'm really scared for my players.

Phill
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/traveller/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 01:38:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug 26 00:38:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <OF606D47C3.80C88457-ONCA256C21.0027ABFE-CA256C21.0027E600@centrelink.gov.au>
References: <OF606D47C3.80C88457-ONCA256C21.0027ABFE-CA256C21.0027E600@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20020826173029.H32334@freeman.little-possums.net>

david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
> Ah - what you need is a decoy that deploys an expandable bubble that
> merely *looks* like it it a few hundred thousand tons.

I believe that's what we were originally discussing.  As soon as it
maneuvers, it will become obvious that it isn't anywhere near that
massive.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 01:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug 26 00:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump co-ordination (Was Human Nature...)
In-Reply-To: <1786.64.8.3.28.1030341649.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <20020825.174815.0z7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <1828.208.28.190.37.1029632377.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <20020825.174815.0z7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020826003049.027995e8@mail.qrc.com> <1302.64.8.3.28.1030339820.webmail@email1.buffnet.net> <20020826155149.C32334@freeman.little-possums.net> <1786.64.8.3.28.1030341649.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020826173839.I32334@freeman.little-possums.net>

hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>   This "technique" of arriving at the same jump point from divergent
>   locations should be just as accurate as ships leaving from the
>   *exact* same location.

Not if divergence is due to uncontrollable variation in local
conditions, as has been posited here before.  e.g. the density of
solar wind or interstellar gas all along the jump path might be a
major contributor to deviation in exit point.  Ships following nearly
identical paths in time and space might thus naturally exit at nearly
identical points.


> At least, that is how it "feels" from where I sit...  ;)

Fair enough -- it's hard to argue with that :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 01:47:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Aug 26 00:47:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <B98F144A.6AEBC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020826115157.D31994@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <B98F144A.6AEBC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020826085328.6dbf2aa6.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Sun, 25 Aug 2002 23:10:02 -0700
Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:

> OK.  So what about other methods of defeating sensors.  You've ruled
> out decoys.  Are there equivalents of' wild weasels' or chaff.  I just
> have a real problem with perfect sensors that can detect everything
> and can't be defeated.  I mean some of the previous post suggest
> sensors that are almost'Star Trekkish' in their accuracy.

I agree with you. As I said in a previous post, I want a submarine feel
for my space combat.

> 1. It is impossible to escape detection

hmmm... space is big. It might be a handwave, but I'll go for that one.

> 2. It is impossible to fool the sensors with decoys

At least inflatable decoys of the normal kind. However, fitting a
maneuver drive to a large asteroid (of approximately the same mass as
the ship) would do the trick. There are "emission signature scanners",
but IMTU they are very possible to trick.

Instead of an asteroid you might even patch together a destroyed ship
enough to make it move forward (or perhaps even jump). That would make
it even more difficult to recognize as a decoy.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 01:51:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug 26 00:51:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <B98F144A.6AEBC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020826115157.D31994@freeman.little-possums.net> <B98F144A.6AEBC%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020826174610.J32334@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> 1. It is impossible to escape detection

For an attacker jumping into a system, that's pretty close.  I
wouldn't necessarily say *impossible*, just very improbable and
exceedingly costly to even attempt to do so.

A prepared defender has far more stealth options.


> 2. It is impossible to fool the sensors with decoys

I'll accept decoys that consist of a 1000-ton ship trying to fool
sensors into thinking its a 10000-ton ship, with at least some degree
of success.  I'll even accept a 10-ton decoy trying to fool sensors
into thinking that it's a 10000-ton ship, provided it doesn't do any
maneuvering (or much else for that matter).


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 01:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Aug 26 00:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Nebula worlds
In-Reply-To: <004c01c24c7f$474a3b80$a533f7c2@ptrevor>
References: <200208221134.g7MBY1o11504@excalibur.skynet.be>
 <000f01c24a7e$399cb060$ce00a8c0@imogen>
 <004c01c24c7f$474a3b80$a533f7c2@ptrevor>
Message-ID: <20020826084006.13ca1de4.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Sun, 25 Aug 2002 03:49:05 +0100
"Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor@rctrevor.com> wrote:

> appear dark to normal eyes?  And given typical OTU technology  is
> it possible that such a system (not the star, just  the  planets)
> be overlooked or  missed  by  Imperial  astronomers  if  it  were
> located 10-20 parsecs beyond the Imperial border?  Or is this all
> just space opera crap?

The important question you missed is: Will the inhabitants, upon
discovering the galaxy out there, decide to wipe it all out? And will
there be a war brutal enough to name a game after it?   ;-)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 02:02:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Mon Aug 26 01:02:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <B98EB4C8.6AE2A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020825232232.358c3fff.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <B98EB4C8.6AE2A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020826084309.301ee8f6.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Sun, 25 Aug 2002 16:22:33 -0700
Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:

> You've left something critical out.  Acceleration is easy to measure,
> yes. But you'll need to know the exact thrust the engine is producing
> to calculate the ship's mass.

Yes, but the power plant output will give that value, at least if you
know what kind of propulsion system the ship is using (which might be
easy to see on scanners), and thus know the approximate efficiency of
said system.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 02:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Mon Aug 26 01:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast
In-Reply-To: <00d901c24cb0$45d383c0$1001a8c0@sauron>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPGENDENAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

I'm sure I read somewhere that an updated version of the DC3 was going back
into production. Can anyone confirm this?

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Frankie
Sent: Monday, 26 August 2002 11:26 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast


Douglas Berry wrote :
> The C-130 is the greatest aircraft ever to leave
> the face of the Earth.

Sorry, it doesn't even hold a candle to the C-47/DC-3 yet.

Frankie


_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 02:10:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 26 01:10:06 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <20020825213841.7003.19467.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17jEto-0004Ru-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

richard honeycutt <richard@usisp.com>

> >Accidents in urban areas will be avoided by use of grav traffic
> >control.
> >
> Great. Cops will be able to control where you land, travel between
> areas and generally
> dictate where you can and cannot go in a grav vehicle. A computer
> based attack on that network can snarl traffic and cause deaths of
> many if it fails. A pimply kid can bring a city to its knees with a
> denial of service attack. Or maybe just a bug in the latest upgrade to
> it.
> 
> There has to be a better way than that.
 
The cops can stop you now with roadblocks and guns, no 
difference there.   As for the hacking problem - easy answer - 
network the vehicles.  If the comp on every air raft talks to all the 
nearby ones (within a few miles) and works out optimal solutions to 
traffic problems *and* they all have smart collusion avoidance then 
the system is far easier to hack.  A central computer may be able 
to give directives, but likely not ones that will override the safety 
protocols of the vehicles (ie a really good hacker could ground all  
vehicles, but could not crash them).  Even if you take some of the 
vehicles out of the network, they will still show up on radar and the 
other vehicles will be able to avoid them.  Centrally controlled 
systems are highly vulnerable to both malfunctions and attacks, 
distributed networks are far more stable (as long as each vehicle 
comp is good enough and by TL 10 they will be [since they can 
also understand most speech at this TL, so they are notably better 
than our computers]).

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com 




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 02:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Mon Aug 26 01:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Moon Q&A
References: <20020826042302.16155.63930.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D69E409.5EBC3F40@ameritech.net>


> Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 18:52:54 -0500
> From: Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>

> Does anyone know what the tallest and lowest point on the moon is?

The tallest point? Some mountain I suppose. Undoubtedly however the
lowest place on the moon has to be Cactus Jax Wild West Salon, owned by
a Vargr so ornery he once shot a man just for not snoring.

:)

(Please note I tried really hard (well at least a little) to post a not
smart ass reply but unfortunately my google fu is not so good today.
Perhaps somebody on the sci.astro hierarchy has this info in an easily
presentable format.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 02:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug 26 01:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <OF9BAF9456.8D535BC0-ONCA256C21.00281754-CA256C21.0028CA53@centrelink.gov.au>
References: <OF9BAF9456.8D535BC0-ONCA256C21.00281754-CA256C21.0028CA53@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20020826182434.A591@freeman.little-possums.net>

david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
> CT states that 1 EP (High Guard) = 250 MW.
[...]
> Forex, a single ship's laser draws 1 EP in power. Add this up, and very 
> soon the excess heat will (in theory) melt the ship's hull.

Ouch!  In GURPS, a single ship's laser draws about 11 MW, more than 20
times less.  CT does indeed have a *lot* more heat problems!


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 02:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 26 01:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <20020824190006.5778.75666.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17jFKH-0004VZ-00@tisch.mail.mindspring.net>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:

> They are still around, oh yes indeed.  It is interesting to note, for
> example, that something like 5% of the cars out there (mostly those
> 'junk cars') generate something like 80% of the pollution associated
> with automobiles.  

Do you have a URL for that info?  I'd love to see it.

Thanks-

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 03:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Aug 26 02:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 Characters
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020825232939.026f3eb0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <009401c24ce2$4719fac0$9011bd50@martinjd>


> 
> 
> That would have been me.  I ended up submitting them to CotI.
> So you would have to ask them for them <http://www.travellerrpg.com/>, 
> since they haven't been posted to the Rogue's Gallery yet.
> 

I've already forwarded them. 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 03:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Megan Robertson)
Date: Mon Aug 26 02:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Moon Q&A
Message-ID: <memo.143018@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <3D69E409.5EBC3F40@ameritech.net>
> > Does anyone know what the tallest and lowest point on the moon is?

Highest point: Beta in the Leibnitz Range, at 36,000 feet.

Don't know what the lowest one is, though :-(

Hugs and kisses,

Mexal.
(Who has been spending too much time looking through a telescope and not 
enough writing...)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 03:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 26 02:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Source for VERY Cool Minatures!
Message-ID: <13170a13590c.13590c13170a@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Date: Sunday, August 25, 2002 11:22 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Source for VERY Cool Minatures!

> At 07:50 PM 8/24/02 -0700, you wrote:
> >As odd as the source might sound, I've found a source for very cool
> >minatures for Sci-Fi games such as Striker.  If you're into such 
> things and
> >haven't seen them yet, check out Mechwarrior: Dark Age from 
> WizKids Games
> >(Mage Knight).  http://www.wizkidsgames.com/mwdarkage/
> 
> Pretty good minis, but I love they targeting crosshairs on the 
> webpage.  Must have it for the GridTech homepage.

<dork tower>

"It must be MINE!"

</dork tower>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 04:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Aug 26 03:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast
In-Reply-To: <3D627DA5.6000805@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <20020826.013353.7S6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail (last Tuesday) you write:

> Hurrel, Brian wrote:
>
>> On a slightly related note, Jimmy Buffet has a refurbished PBY (large WWII
>> era seaplane) with a luxuriously furnished interior. Pretty nice way to go
>> island hopping, if you can afford it.
>
> So that's what he replaced the Grumman Goose with. (In which he learned 
> the hard way, how to bail out of a sinking seaplane...'follow the 
> bubbles, follow the bubbles'...the Goose is now on the bottom of Long 
> Island Sound, following an unfortunate encounter with a wave at just the 
> wrong point in landing.)
>
> A PBY is a heckuva step up. I looked on the web once and found a Goose 
> for sale for a mere $750K.

Hey, if I had the money (and any were still around), one of the old
China Clippers would be nice. 

Or maybe that weird soviet "ground effect" seaplane. I just saw
something about it tonight on TV, and apparently, one of them is still
intact, beuing held by the factory in case they can ever get military
interest in it again. 

400 knots, at 20 meters off the water. Yow!

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 04:07:37 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon Aug 26 03:07:37 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020819134229.009f1320@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20020826.012817.8r9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail (a week ago) you write:

> At 01:57 PM 8/19/02 +0000, you wrote:
>>     There are several wonderful and historical ships open for tours in 
>> the US.
>
> USS Hornet, in Alameda, California.  San Francisco has a WWII submarine.

And Portland, OR has the USS Bluefin, one of the last (if not the last)
deisel subs in commision. They had great fun with it when we had record
floods a few years back.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 05:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 26 04:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Gooneybirds (was: USS North Carolina)
Message-ID: <004001c24cf5$e1a6d1e0$4a000140@k62500>

Hello Derek Wildstar,

Morning all,  I agree to a certain extent that the Gooneybird is one of =
the most enduring and endearing civilian/military planes built so far. =
However, today finding parts to keep them airworthy is getting harder =
and harder. In a similar topic of enduring planes, did anyone catch the =
news story of the B-52. According to the brief story the B-52 is =
currently holds the title of the plane with the longest active service =
and appears to be in line to go to the 100 year mark.

Tom Rux


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 06:05:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Aug 26 05:05:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <OF9BAF9456.8D535BC0-ONCA256C21.00281754-CA256C21.0028CA53@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <3D6AC218.1516.4EDACC@localhost>

On 26 Aug 2002 at 17:25, david.d.jaques-watson@centrel wrote:

> Dear Folks -
> 
> Tim replied to Tod:
> >> Bear with me again.  Where do you derive the value of 70 MW?
> >
> >I used GURPS Vehicles to design the ship.  Power consumption is listed
> >for all major pieces of equipment.
> 
> There's your answer, then - different rule sets.
> 
> CT states that 1 EP (High Guard) = 250 MW.

Wasn't that a Striker thing? If so, the easy way is to throw striker 
out. Unfortunately for the MT gans amongst us MT's design rules use 
this ratio (check out the starship lasers), so this nice, simple option 
isn't available. However there is another option that's just as good - 
throw out MT. :)

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 06:09:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Aug 26 05:09:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Gooneybirds (was: USS North Carolina)
In-Reply-To: <004001c24cf5$e1a6d1e0$4a000140@k62500>
Message-ID: <3D6AC2FA.27881.524E10@localhost>

On 26 Aug 2002 at 4:44, tmr0195@concentric.net wrote:

> Hello Derek Wildstar,
> 
> Morning all,  I agree to a certain extent that the Gooneybird is one
> of the most enduring and endearing civilian/military planes built so
> far. However, today finding parts to keep them airworthy is getting
> harder and harder. In a similar topic of enduring planes, did anyone
> catch the news story of the B-52. According to the brief story the
> B-52 is currently holds the title of the plane with the longest
> active service and appears to be in line to go to the 100 year mark. 
> 
> Tom Rux

How about the An-2?

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 06:22:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug 26 05:22:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <20020826144030.A32334@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020825232936.02a14238@192.168.0.1>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020825232936.02a14238@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020826081859.0250deb8@192.168.0.1>

At 02:40 PM 8/26/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
> > Hot Rod Conversion Kits!
> > Not quite "street Legal", eh? :-)
>Probably not at TL 9 or above, but I suspect that something like it
>would be quite common on worlds of tech levels 5 to 8.

How common would depend on the gov/law/pop levels of the planet.

A restrictive government would want control over these.

On a low pop world with people scattered about, they would be  just too 
darn useful.

On the downside, they probably would be *more* effected by weather effects 
than airframe type aircraft.

Unless they where build using aircraft frames or control parts.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Mort Sahl: General, aren't you supporting Castro by smoking that Havana cigar?
Alexander Haig: I prefer to think of it as burning his crops to the ground.
(from an interview of Mort Sahl on National Public Radio, 23nov91)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 06:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug 26 05:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 Characters
In-Reply-To: <009401c24ce2$4719fac0$9011bd50@martinjd>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020825232939.026f3eb0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020826082554.025f3eb0@192.168.0.1>

At 10:23 AM 8/26/2002 +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
> > That would have been me.  I ended up submitting them to CotI.
> > So you would have to ask them for them <http://www.travellerrpg.com/>,
> > since they haven't been posted to the Rogue's Gallery yet.
>I've already forwarded them.

Cool.  When are they going to appear in the Rogue's Gallery?


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vegetarian: An old Indian word that means "lousy hunter."
                http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 06:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Moreton)
Date: Mon Aug 26 05:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] New Web Page
References: <F250HW5uUJvf5whLmZv0001d394@hotmail.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020824234522.020e7f90@mail.qrc.com> <20020825183848.A30256@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <000c01c24d00$2dbd13a0$18130050@amoreton>

I ahve put a number of documents I ahve written for a planned traveller
campaign on this web page
http://freespace.virgin.net/andrew.moreton/traveller.htm
The material is written for GURPS traveller but has little game mechanics
content
The material describes the Chekhov Hegemony a client state of the Imperium
between the Empire and the Hivers. It also contains information on their
ship and life in the Hegemony navy


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 06:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Mon Aug 26 05:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Revising MegaTraveller and Striker
In-Reply-To: <3D6AC218.1516.4EDACC@localhost>
References: <OF9BAF9456.8D535BC0-ONCA256C21.00281754-CA256C21.0028CA53@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020826090614.00a53970@mail.buffnet.net>

Hello Folks,
   There is nothing wrong with trying to do exactly that *IF* it resolves 
some major issues across the board.  What if Each energy point became 25 
Megawatts instead of 250?

At 12:04 AM 08/27/2002 +1200, you wrote:
>On 26 Aug 2002 at 17:25, david.d.jaques-watson@centrel wrote:
>
> > Dear Folks -
> >
> > Tim replied to Tod:
> > >> Bear with me again.  Where do you derive the value of 70 MW?
> > >
> > >I used GURPS Vehicles to design the ship.  Power consumption is listed
> > >for all major pieces of equipment.
> >
> > There's your answer, then - different rule sets.
> >
> > CT states that 1 EP (High Guard) = 250 MW.
>
>Wasn't that a Striker thing? If so, the easy way is to throw striker
>out. Unfortunately for the MT gans amongst us MT's design rules use
>this ratio (check out the starship lasers), so this nice, simple option
>isn't available. However there is another option that's just as good -
>throw out MT. :)
>
>--
>"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
>
>Military Intelligence
>...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
>on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
>activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
>mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 07:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Aug 26 06:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 Characters
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020825232939.026f3eb0@192.168.0.1> <5.1.0.14.0.20020826082554.025f3eb0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <000701c24d04$5eed1980$7e12bd50@martinjd>

> 
> Cool.  When are they going to appear in the Rogue's Gallery?
> 

Not sure. Whenever Hunter posts them, I guess.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 07:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Aug 26 06:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E8B@USCHM203>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:

>     How far can a powerplant be "throttled back"?  How fast can it be 
>brought back up to military maximum?  If we can "dump the mains" then bring

>them back to 100% in minute(s), then tactical and/or operational surprise 
>may be feasible.

Good question. I hadn't given it too much thought, but by silent running,
I'm assuming enough power for life support, passive sensors, and that's
about it.
If it takes a while to bring a power plant up to speed, this could be a
trade-off as far as risk goes, as you might give away your position before
getting weapons on line. Or, you simply might get detected while running
silent.
You can always fire missiles and sand, of course.
Perhaps 20 minutes, or a single High Guard turn, might be needed.

Speaking of power plants, I know this sounds heretical, but has anyone ever
done a Star Trek type power allocation system? As in deciding how much power
to allot to weapons or maneuver? I don't recall it ever being done in a
Traveller setting.
Probably more trouble than it's worth, though the High Guard "emergency
agility" rule, which allows more maneuver DMs at the cost of not firing any
enrgy consuming weapons, seems to be a nod in this direction.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 07:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug 26 06:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Waste Heat
Message-ID: <200208261351.NOY02470@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn asks

>Anyone have some numbers on how much heat you can radiate 
>away vs. the amount of waste generated by the powerplant and 
>drives?  

In reading the Project Orion book, they note that it is a 
physical impossibility to develop an internal engine that 
produces and exploits the power levels that could drive a 
fusion rocket at or near its full potential (same for fission 
rocket) solely because of the waste heat problem.  No system 
of radiators and coolers could move the waste heat quickly 
enough to prevent the ship's engine from being 
instantaneously volatilized.  This problem was also brought 
up by Arthur C. Clarke in his non-fiction work, 
Interplanetary Flight.

A fusion rocket that was an internal engine would run at 
orders of magnitude less efficiency than an external 
detonation engine.  Unless we wave our hands a lot together 
to keep it cool, there is no plausible internal engine that 
would arrive at the same level of thrust and Isp as the Orion 
engine.  When you switched it on, the back end of the ship 
would be vaporized.
________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 08:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 26 07:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Nebula worlds
Message-ID: <1a377b1a535d.1a535d1a377b@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Date: Monday, August 26, 2002 9:40 am
Subject: Re: [TML] Nebula worlds

> On Sun, 25 Aug 2002 03:49:05 +0100
> "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor@rctrevor.com> wrote:
> 
> > appear dark to normal eyes?  And given typical OTU technology  is
> > it possible that such a system (not the star, just  the  planets)
> > be overlooked or  missed  by  Imperial  astronomers  if  it  were
> > located 10-20 parsecs beyond the Imperial border?  Or is this all
> > just space opera crap?
> 
> The important question you missed is: Will the inhabitants, upon
> discovering the galaxy out there, decide to wipe it all out? And will
> there be a war brutal enough to name a game after it?   ;-)

Now, now.  That last comment was hardly cricket.... ;-)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 08:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Mon Aug 26 07:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Space Combat Ranges
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E8C@USCHM203>

At the risk of almost certain ridicule, I'm going to share my latest
butchering of just about every Traveller Starship Combat system ever
published.
I already use a hodge-podge of Mayday and High Guard, and while it might be
possible for ships to engage in combat at ranges exceeding hundreds of
thousands of miles, it simply never felt right to me to have ships engaging
in combat beyond the distance of, say, Earth to Luna.
We use a 10,000 mile per hex, 30 minutes per turn scale using Mayday
movment.
We also use a strategic, system wide scale of 25 Million miles per hex/24
hours per turn.
When two units of fleets end up in the same hex, the action switches to the
smaller tactical scale.
The tactical area is, of course, much smaller than 25 million miles across.
More like 300,000, but for playability's sake, it seems to work, and you can
fit the Earth/Luna system on one map, which was the basic idea.
Units have there same strategic vector coming in, and of course this is
another concession to playability. The starting speeds would actually be
much greater on the tactical scale.
As far as weapons ranges, we use High Guard, except 5 hexes, or short range,
is only 50,000 miles. Long range is 150,000 miles. After that energy weapons
are useless.
As a handwave, we chalk that up to light speed lag, and assume that anything
close to a light second or further away, unless drifting, will be nearly
impossible to hit.
Missiles have grater range, and are represented by Mayday missile counters. 
The basic idea was to make maneuvering a much greater part of combat. It
seemed as if, with most rules sets, movement was almost besides the point at
the ranges given for weapons.
And of course, we all grew up with Star Wars and Star Blazers, and as
unrealistic as it is to imagine ships actually seeing each other during
combat(even at reduced ranges, a Star Destroyer one hex away will be a
pinpoint), few players in my group can ever shake such images completely.
On the map, the fighter might be in the next hex some 10,000 miles away, but
in the mind's eye of the player, it's skimming the surface of the battleship
in a high speed strafing run.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 08:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Mon Aug 26 07:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Knowing and doing
Message-ID: <F165COPlEPPKquZlHsc00000a4d@hotmail.com>

From: Flykiller@aol.com

     "Trade does not consist only of goods and services, it also consists of 
ideas."


Sir,

     A very good point, but if those seeds don't fall on the proper soil?

     "If the low tech world in question is at all dynamic and forward 
looking..."

     No small assumption given Real World experiences.

     "...it wouldn't neet vast fleets bringing trade goods, it would only 
need a few hundred professors and industrialists to jump start its 
progress."

     Once again, a very big maybe.  We've seen that model work perhaps four 
times in the Real World; Japan, Taiwan, Korea, and Singapore.  Listing the 
places where it hasn't worked is rather easy; most of the planet south of 
the equator.

     "A tech 6 world would represent an enormous profit opportunity for a 
tech 9 businessman who sees a society capable of advancing in certain 
directions and knows how to direct that advancement."

     Not profit by advancement, profit by looting, corruption, and cheap 
labor.  If not overseen by a government and society focussed on advancement, 
off-world "investment" will follow the path of least resistance; i.e. 
resource recovery operations and the use of "meat puppets" assembling goods 
by hand.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 09:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matt Ashley)
Date: Mon Aug 26 08:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Trav Sensors
In-Reply-To: <20020825200903.4160.12480.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020826145529.32464.qmail@web12302.mail.yahoo.com>

> I'm not sure the issue would be IR radiation for concealing power plant
> output in space combat.  Certainly any ship with a powerplant would
> generate heat that would have to be disposed of, most likely by
> radiation, BUT it is relatively easy to control the directionality of
> the IR radiation so as not to present much of an IR target as viewed
> from the threat axis.  
> 
> A defending force could overcome some of this by placing a network of
> ships or sensor buoys englobing the target at very long range (sound
> like a job for a Scout ship), but such isolated platforms would be
> vulnerable to destruction, so the defending Admiral's first warning of
> an attack might be ships or sensors failing to report from a sector.
> That would tell him that an enemy fleet MIGHT be approaching from there,
> but would give little information about its composition...
> 
> Another thing...I thought that at some TL neutrino sensors became usable
> to detect the presence of an operating fusion powerplant, and its
> approximate power output?
> 
> TWB

You could lase the waste heat out the back of your ship ala Brin's Sundiver novel (not sure of the
physics of that one, a lot depends on the efficiency of your lasing system) and cool your outer
skin to control your IR signature.

I think that at TL-12 or TL-15 you could do a lot of things that we haven't even thought of or can
think of but can't engineer to disguise a space ship.  I think at a certain point in this
discussion we are like TL-0 tribesmen trying to describe why a TL-8 computer won't work.

There should obviously be some hefty bonuses for detection/evasion between TL's however you slice
it.

Matt


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 09:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matt Ashley)
Date: Mon Aug 26 08:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Sensor Paradigms
In-Reply-To: <20020826070103.20244.64728.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020826155121.26289.qmail@web12304.mail.yahoo.com>

> Message: 14
> Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 11:51:57 +1000
> From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> Tod Glenn wrote:
> > Won't it be possible to build a radiator that produces an output
> > like your vessel, in the same way that current naval ships use
> > things like blip enhancers to make escort vessels look like the
> > carriers they are protecting?
> 
> Making an escort look like a carrier is quite a different matter from
> making a disposable decoy look like a capital ship.  You have to make
> it match in many respects, not just strength of return of some
> incoming active sensor ping.
> 
> It would be a bit easier if you know in advance where all the enemy
> sensors are, what sort of analysis they're each doing, and how fast
> they're moving relative to you.
> 
> In short: I can imagine that a smaller ship might be able to fool some
> sensors some of the time into thinking that it was a ship a few times
> bigger.  What I don't buy is a decoy massing a few hundred tons
> fooling high-tech sensors into thinking that it is a few hundred
> thousand tons.
> 
> 
> - Tim

No telling what kind of hand waving high tech things we can come up with at TL-15 or even TL-12.

If you can manipulate gravity and the various nuclear forces and build a jump drive then you can
surely do some fancy work with decoys and radiation of heat.  At TL-15 they have a fundamentally
different/more advanced understanding of physics than we do.  Granted that the laws of
thermodynamics still apply, but we are looking at a likely diference in understanding of the
universe between the present and TL-15 that exceeds that of Newtonian vs. quantum theories.

Of course we can't buy into decoying and concealing star ships in interstellar space.  Try
explaining quantum computing to a TL-0 tribesman.  I think we are stuck in our own paradigm of
TL-8 or so in trying to figure out the deceptive tactics and starship energy management practices
of a TL-15 society.  A fun exercise but hard to be very authoritative.

Now you probably would need a 200 or 500 or 1000 ton decoy to mimic your 500kdt Tigress.  That is
fine and well worth the cost to deploy.  You probably would want something large so it can jump in
with the rest of the fleet and start decoying from the get go.

Matt




__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 10:57:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Aug 26 09:57:01 2002
Subject: [TML] Revising MegaTraveller and Striker
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020826090614.00a53970@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <B98FABB2.6AF03%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/26/02 6:07 AM, Hal at hal@buffnet.net wrote:

> Hello Folks,
> There is nothing wrong with trying to do exactly that *IF* it resolves
> some major issues across the board.  What if Each energy point became 25
> Megawatts instead of 250?
>=20

That's still a bit of a hand wave, isn't it?  Just out of curiosity, if we
know what fuel consumption is for out powerplant and drives, can't we
estimate power output?  If 1 EP goes from 250 to 25, doesn't that just mean
that we've reduced the efficiency of our power plant by 90%?  Which mean
even more heat.

I don't buy the whole "We don't like the numbers so we'll just change it."
People on this list are making arguments based on real physics.  They are
talking about black body radiation and detectability based on calculated
values.  Suddenly we see some values we don't like, so we just arbitrarily
reduce them by an order of magnitude?  That sort of pokes holes in the whol=
e
'realistic argument' to heat radiation, doesn't it?
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 11:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug 26 10:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  OT,but sort of funny
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEOFCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
>
>I figure that the buttons on coat-cuffs are vestigial, from some
>theoretical time when cuffs were closed tight.  To tell the truth, I
>wish that were the current fashion--although I'll admit the look would
>be passing strange.

Their original function of the buttons was to discourage soldiers from
wiping their noses on their sleeves.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 11:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Mon Aug 26 10:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Huh>?
References: <F165COPlEPPKquZlHsc00000a4d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <003001c24d28$037931a0$d808bd50@martinjd>

Anyone got any idea why I now get all messages from the tml twice?

Something to do with yesterday's oops, perhaps, when I tried to setup the
Catgod address and everything that went out, no matter what I told the
machine to do, went out from that address instead of the one I wanted???


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-to-the-Masses
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 11:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Aug 26 10:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: OT,but sort of funny
References: <47.22143de4.2a9a6c42@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D6A668D.2070309@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
>>I don't know if this is true or not,
>>www.top-greetings.com/A.py?R=20020822,0JSK
> 
> 
> I've seen this attributed to every monarch from about 1600 on. Frederick the 
> Great is a favorite also.
> 
> Cecil Adams <http://www.straightdope.com> discusses the question in one of 
> his essays, and it cannot be proven one way or the other. I file this under 
> the same heading as "Why are manhole covers round?" and other light classics.

Manhole covers are round because it's minimum and maximum radii are 
equal: meaning it can't fall into it's own hole.

The same is true for an equilateral triangle, (or any odd-face-numbered 
polygon, for that matter) but triangular holes (or the aforementioned 
odd-face-numbered polys) represent a different problem that also figures 
into it. Any shape but a circle has a facing.

That means you have to set the cover in just the right orientation, too; 
a circle can be slapped into it's hole any which way. This is a big deal 
when you're moving a 60-70 pound manhole cover around, and an even 
bigger one when you;re moving several hundreds per day around.

Finally, although I'm not entirely positive about this, a circular 
opening in the street offers the greates support in all directions for 
heavy weights on the cover.

A truck rolling over a round manhole is less likely to pop it out than 
any other shape.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 12:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Mon Aug 26 11:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Huh>?
In-Reply-To: <003001c24d28$037931a0$d808bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <B98FBDDF.6AF20%listmom@travellercentral.com>

on 8/26/02 10:42 AM, MJ Dougherty at martinjd@globalnet.co.uk wrote:

> Anyone got any idea why I now get all messages from the tml twice?
> 
> Something to do with yesterday's oops, perhaps, when I tried to setup the
> Catgod address and everything that went out, no matter what I told the
> machine to do, went out from that address instead of the one I wanted???
> 
> 

If you have more than one address, and only want to receive mail to one,
make sure that on the other subscribed addresses you have 'no mail'
selected.

-- 
listmom@travellercentral.com
for list information see
http://lists.travellercentral.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 12:18:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Aug 26 11:18:25 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  OT,but sort of funny
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEOFCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <B98FBEE4.6AF21%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/26/02 10:16 AM, Glenn M. Goffin at gmgoffin@earthlink.net wrote:

>> From: ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
>>=20
>> I figure that the buttons on coat-cuffs are vestigial, from some
>> theoretical time when cuffs were closed tight.  To tell the truth, I
>> wish that were the current fashion--although I'll admit the look would
>> be passing strange.
>=20
> Their original function of the buttons was to discourage soldiers from
> wiping their noses on their sleeves.
>=20
> --Glenn

Sleeves used to be longer, functioning also as gloves.  When sleeve were no=
t
needed for warmth, they were folded up.  Eventually, this became a fashion,
and the cuff turnbacks (in military dress) were even given a facing color.
The problem is, heavy woolen material is hard to roll up and down.  Unless
you split it.  But now you have a gap.  So you add buttons, allowing you to
unbotton, roll up then cuff, then rebutton to keep it in place.  After a
while, the ability to roll the cuffs down fell out of use.  The buttons are
merely vestigial.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 12:25:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Mon Aug 26 11:25:03 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast
References: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPGENDENAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>
Message-ID: <3D6A7212.2020804@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Antony Farrell wrote:
> I'm sure I read somewhere that an updated version of the DC3 was going back
> into production. Can anyone confirm this?

There was an Air and Space article about them 2 years ago. There is a 
company that retrofits them with turboprop engines, updated electronics, 
  and structural strengthening, and reslls 'em. There are a number doing 
elint work in Columbia.

http://www.airandspacemagazine.com/ASM/Mag/Index/2000/AM/high.html

http://www.airandspacemagazine.com/ASM/Mag/Index/2000/AM/hSB1.html




-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 13:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug 26 12:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Prevalence of grav vehicles
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDKEOGCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: richard honeycutt <richard@usisp.com>
>
>    A feature that many people will try to circumnavigate. Especially if
>it fails 100 kms from an authorized service center. With so many
manufacturers and models
>around, will parts be easily available?

The Vilani would probably have standardized a lot of parts during 10,000-odd
years of TL 9 civilization.  Failure a long way from an authorized service
center means a carrying vehicle will be dispatched to carry the disabled
vehicle to the repair center ... just like today.  Travellers to the
boondocks will bring a lot of spare parts ... just like today.

>What if the monitor itself fails....prevents use when systems is ok or
allows
>flight when system will fail.

They will be as reliable as reasonably possible, just like every other piece
of technology.  After 10,000-odd years of Vilani civilization, that's
probably more reliable than any piece of technology that you or I use today.

>    Is it 100% accurate and if not, what happens when a tanker grav-truck
hauling a 10000 liters
>of gasoline crashes into a building.

Why is gasoline being carried by a TL 9+ vehicle?  That will certainly be an
extremely unusual occurrence, as fusion technology provides energy without
the use of combustion.  Fusion power plants use liquid hydrogen, or even
water.

That fact, by the way, means that many of our contemporary ways of modelling
the way societies work are out the window.  The paradigm for all human
systems for about the last 150 years has been one of scarce and expensive
energy, derived from minerals like petroleum and uranium that must be mined
and refined before use.  Water, however, is plentiful, here and apparently
throughout the galaxy.  That suggests a lot of changes.  For example, urban
water lines can carry water to neighborhood purification plants, which can
convert it to L-Hyd to power local* fusion power plants.**

*Given the huge output of fusion power plants indicated by Striker's design
sequences, "local" could be a very large area indeed.

**Fusion power plants are not very attractive terrorist targets.  So far as
we know from canon, fusion plants cannot be converted to hydrogen bombs.

>Can drivers over-ride traffic systems?How many of them will be able to
drive in 3 dimensions ( given how poorly we drive here
>in America; almost all driver caused).

In urban areas, with dense vehicle traffic, all traffic will have to be run
by a traffic control system.  Where traffic is less dense, driving will be
easier than flying an airplane.

>>Accidents in urban areas will be avoided by use of grav traffic control.
>
>    Great. Cops will be able to control where you land, travel between
areas and generally
>dictate where you can and cannot go in a grav vehicle.

Welcome the future.  Notions of civil rights will be different.

>A computer based attack on that network can snarl traffic and cause deaths
of many if it fails. A pimply kid can
>bring a city to its knees with a denial of service attack. Or maybe just a
bug in the latest upgrade to it.
>
>There has to be a better way than that.

This is actually an issue in my current campaign.  I don't think that the
era of the pimply-faced teenage script dumper is going to last very long.
Remember, we are talking about more than 3,000 years of development from
today, set against a context of 10,000 years of Vilani civilization.  That's
plenty of time to develop systems that are a lot harder to break.  We should
not expect that the problems and vulnerabilities of 2002 will still be major
concerns by 5002.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 13:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Mon Aug 26 12:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Moon Q&A
Message-ID: <3D6A7E1F.4E16E89@mail.cswnet.com>

> > Does anyone know what the tallest and lowest point on the moon is?
Mexal writes:
>Highest point: Beta in the Leibnitz Range, at 36,000 feet.
 
Thanks! I needed some kind of idea about mountain size on a size2 world.
My intention is to fudge the altitude number for the highest point on
Arba. This will then be called Mount Turokan.

David Shayne writes:
>Undoubtedly however the lowest place on the moon has to be Cactus Jax >Wild West Salon, owned by a Vargr so ornery he once shot a man just >for not snoring.

Yeah, I got one of those:
Lee Ho Fooks' Terran Gardens
Vargr friendly! 
Specializes in "big dishes of beaf chow mein"
Located at Nimmi Shiss, 10km Northwest of Downport.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 13:25:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug 26 12:25:06 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Prevalence of grav vehicles
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEOHCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: sneadj@mindspring.com

>As for the hacking problem - easy answer - network the vehicles.

Thanks for that excellent tip!  I wish I'd thought of it myself.  Your name
will be on the screen when the credits roll after the next session of my
current campaign.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 13:28:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Mon Aug 26 12:28:55 2002
Subject: [TML] Jump co-ordination (Was Human Nature...)
In-Reply-To: <1302.64.8.3.28.1030339820.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020826003049.027995e8@mail.qrc.com>
 <20020825.174815.0z7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
 <1828.208.28.190.37.1029632377.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <20020825.174815.0z7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020826003049.027995e8@mail.qrc.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020826141809.04845390@mail.qrc.com>

At 01:30 AM 8/26/2002, hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>The intent it so appear behind Pluto's orbit.  Group A is to show up in 
>staging area A, Group B in B's area, and C in C's area - all within a set 
>distance of each other (to account for maximum spread of distance errors 
>due to max accuracy possible from a 4 parsec distance).  Group D is to 
>appear between Neptune and Pluto's orbit.  [A]ssuming that all four groups 
>leave from different stars - they can't arrive within the +/- 1 day 
>lee-way of the OTU physics?

They most definitely can.  You can't predict which group (A, B, C, or D) 
will arrive first, or in which order they will arrive.  All groups are 
guaranteed to arrive within a 36-hour time span (and quite likely 
shorter).  This is a case where your assault plan allows for enough time to 
wait for all of the groups to show up and then assemble your forces before 
beginning operations.

What you can't do in my universe is have all four groups jump directly to 
an assault point (say, at Earth's 100 diameter limit) and expect all ships 
to arrive at the same time and in accurate close formation.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 13:33:17 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Mon Aug 26 12:33:17 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Ping!
Message-ID: <3D6A7FD2.1DFF24DB@mail.cswnet.com>

>Sounds like you're in the bumpers there... what's the problem?

My fault...I didn't get any digests yesterday and I got over anxious.
I'll take a stress pill and go play chess with Hal now.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 13:37:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 26 12:37:46 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Revising MegaTraveller and Striker
Message-ID: <a5.2c8bc5a3.2a9bdbf0@aol.com>

Tod L Glenn writes:

>> There is nothing wrong with trying to do exactly that *IF* it resolves
>> some major issues across the board.  What if Each energy point became
>>25 Megawatts instead of 250?
>>
>
>That's still a bit of a hand wave, isn't it?  Just out of curiosity, if
>we know what fuel consumption is for out powerplant and drives, can't we
>estimate power output?  If 1 EP goes from 250 to 25, doesn't that just
>mean that we've reduced the efficiency of our power plant by 90%?

Only in terms of volume, as the editions of Traveller that scaled back the MW 
of power plants also scaled back the fuel requirements. WAAAAY back. The "per 
month" of CT and MT became "per year" for TNE and T4.

If you fix lasers and M-Drives to use less (those being the two biggest hogs 
on any non-spinal-equipped design), you may also wish to restore the CT ratio 
for jump fuel, so that ships have a reason to carry any fuel at all.

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 13:41:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ken Murphy)
Date: Mon Aug 26 12:41:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Starships: Melting ,or Unmelting?
Message-ID: <F96eHTgzW2hSsKAfHci00012017@hotmail.com>

   I keep seeing the P word (Physics) getting tossed around with regards to 
this whole energy dispersment/melting/non-melting spaceship thread. Now *I* 
know practically nothing about the big P, but one thing I *do* know is, the 
reason this stuff seems to have a hard time jibing with RWP (Real World 
Physics)is that while Traveller is often touted as more of a *Hard Science* 
SF RPG(as opposed to mere Space Opera), it remains,in fact, Space Opera.
   Please keep in mind that its the *57th* century in the OTU,folks(I have 
no idea what the timeline is in GURPSTRAV)--that's somwhere between the year 
5,601 and 5,699 AD; anywhere from 3,599 to 3,697years into the future from 
*right now*.
   Compare our undestanding of Physics 3,600 years ago to what it is 
*now*.Unless we oh-so-clever monkeys are a *lot* brighter than we really 
are, I figure there's bound to be *plenty* of room yet for groundbreaking, 
as-yet-undreamt-of discoveries to be discovered in the field of Physics by 
the time the 57th Century rolls around.
   A ship can safely (and routinely) travel as much as 18 or so LY in the 
span of a week, yet has to worry about getting rid of waste heat?
   Heck, today's big heat dispersment problems might've been taken care of 
by simple application of a large can of *Heat Away*(Now with 30% more 
Handwavium!)sprayed on the ship's hull as it rolls off the assemblyline.
   The easiest answer to why things are the way they are in the future is: 
*They just are*
  -Ken-


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 13:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 26 12:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Revising MegaTraveller and Striker
In-Reply-To: <20020826190005.5795.85030.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17jPqX-0001bL-00@barry.mail.mindspring.net>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:

> > Hello Folks,
> > There is nothing wrong with trying to do exactly that *IF* it
> > resolves some major issues across the board.  What if Each energy
> > point became 25 Megawatts instead of 250?
> >
> 
> That's still a bit of a hand wave, isn't it?  Just out of curiosity,
> if we know what fuel consumption is for out powerplant and drives,
> can't we estimate power output?  If 1 EP goes from 250 to 25, doesn't
> that just mean that we've reduced the efficiency of our power plant by
> 90%?  Which mean even more heat.

Except that figures for fusion fuel usage are highly variable in 
Traveller.  In Striker and MT fuel usage was utterly silly, fusion 
plants had a fuel efficiency that wasn't all that much better than fuel 
cells.  Efficiency calculations are pretty meaningless, since they 
are already at *tiny* fractions of one percent. 

I love the MT design sequences, but the rules for fusion fuel usage 
*desperately* needs to be vastly lowered

In GT, fuel usage isn't mentioned because fusion plants are 
assumed (sensibly) not to require very much fuel.  Fusion fuel is 
both mentioned and moderately sensible in TNE, but reducing 
power production by a factor of 10 could either be dealt with the 
reducing fuel consumption by a factor of 10 (which would make 
essentially no different to most designs since the fuel usage is 
already so small) or simply assume that the extra fuel is lost to 
evaporation and/or used in cooling.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 14:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Mon Aug 26 13:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  OT,but sort of funny
In-Reply-To: <B98FBEE4.6AF21%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020826202204.45936.qmail@web11807.mail.yahoo.com>

> 
> Sleeves used to be longer, functioning also as
> gloves.  When sleeve were not
> needed for warmth, they were folded up.  Eventually,
> this became a fashion,
> and the cuff turnbacks (in military dress) were even
> given a facing color.
> The problem is, heavy woolen material is hard to
> roll up and down.  Unless
> you split it.  But now you have a gap.  So you add
> buttons, allowing you to
> unbotton, roll up then cuff, then rebutton to keep
> it in place.  After a
> while, the ability to roll the cuffs down fell out
> of use.  The buttons are
> merely vestigial.
I kind of figured it was something more along those
lines. I got the nose wiping thing from a page that
offers trivia like that called "useless facts". The
nose wiping sounds kind of silly.
Saluting ,however, I'm thinking that may have come
from knights lifting the visor in the presence of the
king or noble present. Anyone have any other data?


=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 14:31:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew MacLintock)
Date: Mon Aug 26 13:31:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: OT,but sort of funny
Message-ID: <F79IXWb9DYccSN00ktm00000424@hotmail.com>

>Saluting ,however, I'm thinking that may have come
>from knights lifting the visor in the presence of the
>king or noble present. Anyone have any other data?

Shows honor.

Knight, approaching knight, lifts visor with right hand.  This shows the 
other that the one does not have a weapon in hand, and also makes face 
visible to be recognized...



Andy Mac


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 15:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Aug 26 14:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Starships: Melting ,or Unmelting?
In-Reply-To: <F96eHTgzW2hSsKAfHci00012017@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B98FEAB4.6AF6A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/26/02 12:31 PM, Ken Murphy at murfnmurf@hotmail.com wrote:

> The easiest answer to why things are the way they are in the future is:
> *They just are*
> -Ken-

You are of course right, Ken.  A similar argument erupted over the actual
usefulness of the cutlass in Traveller.  The correct answer is "It's
Traveller"  therefore marines use cutlasses.

And IMTU, Laser fit in turrets, Ships are limited to 6Gs of acceleration,
there are no gravitic thruster plates, etc.

I happen to like the idea of ships being able to 'run silent', and a
submarine like sudden-death hide and seek feel to space combat.  Therefore,
ships can power down and hide, and are difficult to detect.  Captains take
use their skill and experience to have a major impact on the outcome of
battles.  It's not just about who has the best ship.

It's been my experience that when you try to add the real life physics, it
all starts to break down.  And I have been very disappointed with some of
the later systems.  I haven't done any work designing ships with FFS, but
when designing small arms (something I know quite a lot about) it becomes
obvious to me that the system is badly broken.

As we say, IMTU...and YMMV.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 15:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Aug 26 14:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  OT,but sort of funny
In-Reply-To: <20020826202204.45936.qmail@web11807.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B98FEBAC.6AF6B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/26/02 1:22 PM, Daniel Tackett at haegen2001@yahoo.com wrote:

>> of use.  The buttons are
>> merely vestigial.
> I kind of figured it was something more along those
> lines. I got the nose wiping thing from a page that
> offers trivia like that called "useless facts". The
> nose wiping sounds kind of silly.
> Saluting ,however, I'm thinking that may have come
> from knights lifting the visor in the presence of the
> king or noble present. Anyone have any other data?

I think most scholars agree that the origin of the salute goes back to the
armored knight.  Raising the visor allowed one knight to see the other.
It's an act of recognition and courtesy between members of the same social
class. The evolution to the salute (and the tipping of the hat) seems rathe=
r
obvious.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 15:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Mon Aug 26 14:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Posting from more than one address
Message-ID: <B98FEDA9.6AF6D%listmom@travellercentral.com>

Thanks to a glitch on the server, people who post from more than one address
may have their non-subscribed address posts redirected to the listmom for
approval.

If you want to be able to post from more than one email address, but only
receive mail at a single address, here's how to do it.

For each address you wish to post from, you need to subscribe to the tml.
To keep from receiving mail at this address, use the web form for managing
your account.  Select the 'no mail' option for your post only addresses.
That's it.
-- 
listmom@travellercentral.com
for list information see
http://lists.travellercentral.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 15:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Anthony Jackson)
Date: Mon Aug 26 14:49:02 2002
Subject: Subject: Re: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
References: <ML-2.3.1030135501.9084.ajackson@ping> <3D686092.7020201@usisp.com>
Message-ID: <3D6A8E6B.6080606@iii.com>

richard honeycutt wrote:

>> Sure there is.  It's called a black globe generator.
>>
>    Not for too long though....how long will it take for a black globe 
> to top off its capacitors
> when absorbing all the ship's emitted radiation minus background? It 
> won't be re-emitting
> it as weapons fire until the battle starts. I will see if I can work 
> that out using ff&s1. 

Since a black globe generator, as described, turns high entropy energy 
into low entropy energy (it turns heat into useful power; at least, 
that's the implication of the fact that it can freeze solid matter 
touching it), it won't be too difficult to simply switch the globe off 
every so often and dump the excess power in some highly directional manner.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 16:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug 26 15:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020826081859.0250deb8@192.168.0.1>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020825232936.02a14238@192.168.0.1> <5.1.0.14.0.20020825232936.02a14238@192.168.0.1> <20020826144030.A32334@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020826081859.0250deb8@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020827082128.A2374@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> A restrictive government would want control over these.

Yes, they would.


> On the downside, they probably would be *more* effected by weather
> effects than airframe type aircraft.

Not remotely!

Normal aircraft rely on steady airflow and high speeds for lift.  They
are also (necessarily) lightweight and have a *lot* of surface area
sculpted into shapes that are designed to offer little resistance to
airflow in one direction, but a lot in others.  The forces on an
airframe are actually greater per unit surface area than if it was
unstreamlined.  Furthermore, their necessarily high speed means that
small variations in airspeed induce large forces, because force varies
quadratically with airspeed.  What's worse, if ice deposition changes
the surface charcteristics, then the aircraft behaves quite
differently.  Furthermore, many aircraft are propelled or supported by
airscrews, which also rely on airflow to generate thrust.


Grav vehicles will almost always be much denser than airframe
vehicles, move at lower speeds, and won't have surfaces specifically
designed to catch the wind.  They will usually be propelled by
thrusters for which motive force is not dependent upon airspeed.


Yes, they will be a little dependent upon weather conditions, in some
ways more than ground vehicles.  In some ways less though, since they
don't have to worry about snowy, icy, or muddy roads.  They will most
certainly be *much* less affected by weather than any airframe
vehicle.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 16:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug 26 15:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E8B@USCHM203>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E8B@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <20020827082651.B2374@freeman.little-possums.net>

Hurrel, Brian wrote:
> Speaking of power plants, I know this sounds heretical, but has
> anyone ever done a Star Trek type power allocation system?

I thought about it, but (at least in GURPS) power plants are
sufficiently smaller and less costly per unit power produced than the
things that consume it, that it really isn't worth the very small
savings.  On top of that, one type of system will usually greatly
dominate power consumption, making the others pretty much irrelevant
for allocation purposes except in very unusual circumstances.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 16:31:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug 26 15:31:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Waste Heat
In-Reply-To: <200208261351.NOY02470@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208261351.NOY02470@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020827082846.C2374@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> Unless we wave our hands a lot together to keep it cool, there is no
> plausible internal engine that would arrive at the same level of
> thrust and Isp as the Orion engine.

Hence the huge Traveller handwaves of HEPlaR, grav plates, and
reactionless thrusters.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 16:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug 26 15:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Trav Sensors
In-Reply-To: <20020826145529.32464.qmail@web12302.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020825200903.4160.12480.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <20020826145529.32464.qmail@web12302.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020827083250.D2374@freeman.little-possums.net>

Matt Ashley wrote:
> You could lase the waste heat out the back of your ship ala Brin's
> Sundiver novel (not sure of the physics of that one, a lot depends
> on the efficiency of your lasing system)

It got a right roasting on rec.arts.sf.science a few years back, for
good reason.  If you can achieve 99.999999999% efficiency of every
single system involved (everything from power plant to refrigeration
to laser system), it might work.  I'm actually being generous here.
However, you still need an utterly extraordinary power source and
insulation almost as good.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 16:40:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Mon Aug 26 15:40:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E8B@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <3D6B56F1.19193.49C1CC@localhost>

On 26 Aug 2002 at 8:46, Hurrel, Brian wrote:

> Speaking of power plants, I know this sounds heretical, but has
> anyone ever done a Star Trek type power allocation system? As in
> deciding how much power to allot to weapons or maneuver? I don't
> recall it ever being done in a Traveller setting. Probably more
> trouble than it's worth, though the High Guard "emergency agility"
> rule, which allows more maneuver DMs at the cost of not firing any
> enrgy consuming weapons, seems to be a nod in this direction. 

In TNE/FF&S1 this is not unusual in tight designs. Especially common 
are designs where the contra-gravity and long-range radio can't operate 
at once, or CG and all the weapons. Because the CG is only used for 
interface operations, and the radio isn't generally needed at full-
power during these manoeuvres this works out fine. Power allocation 
after taking a couple of hits to the power plant is also fairly common 
in TNE designs.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 16:44:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug 26 15:44:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Starships: Melting ,or Unmelting?
In-Reply-To: <F96eHTgzW2hSsKAfHci00012017@hotmail.com>
References: <F96eHTgzW2hSsKAfHci00012017@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020827084027.E2374@freeman.little-possums.net>

Ken Murphy wrote:
>    The easiest answer to why things are the way they are in the
>future is: *They just are*

Unfortunately that "answer" is no answer at all.

Some of us want more detail than has been published, and I for one
want any such detail to introduce as few lumps of unobtainium as
reasonably possible.

It also makes for a rather pointless discussion:

 "You can't see my ship's waste heat because it has a handwavium spray
coating of HeatAway"

 "Well, my ship has Penetron sensors, and can see the waste heat
inside the ship before it reaches the coating"

...etc


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 17:06:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas R Glatz)
Date: Mon Aug 26 16:06:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Starships: Melting ,or Unmelting?
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 27 Aug 2002 08:40:27 +1000."
 <20020827084027.E2374@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <200208262305.g7QN5fE18166@catenary.cesa.opbu.xerox.com>

>  "You can't see my ship's waste heat because it has a handwavium spray
> coating of HeatAway"
> 
>  "Well, my ship has Penetron sensors, and can see the waste heat
> inside the ship before it reaches the coating"
> 
> ...etc

Exactly, Tim - this is the point where the flavor of your campaign gets 
introduced.

I made this point a few years ago, and was ... ahem ... somewhat trounced for 
it by the proponents for RL physics holding sway.

However, I am a big proponent of the KISS field of thought. If you have TL 14 
sensors, then you probably can defeat TL 13 countermeasures.  However, if the 
other ship has TL 15 countermeasures, it's probably going to be able to defeat 
your sensors (depending, of course, on the skill levels of the various 
operators - a wizard in Sensors is going to be able to defeat a Novice, even 
if the novice has a TL 1 or 2 advantage.)

Otherwise, I really believe that the 'physics' of the game will get hammered 
by RL technology advances, for example, computer size, as defined by CT.

douglas



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 17:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Simon Brodie)
Date: Mon Aug 26 16:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 Characters
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020825232939.026f3eb0@192.168.0.1> <009401c24ce2$4719fac0$9011bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <001801c24cfa$41995ce0$3f64ff3e@bloodyhellfire>

Ladies and Gents,

please see attached character roster for T20 at Gencon UK.

Any and all comments gratefully received.

:-)

Simon

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: 26 August 2002 10:23 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] T20 Characters


> 
> 
> > 
> > 
> > That would have been me.  I ended up submitting them to CotI.
> > So you would have to ask them for them <http://www.travellerrpg.com/>, 
> > since they haven't been posted to the Rogue's Gallery yet.
> > 
> 
> I've already forwarded them. 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 


--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/mixed
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  application/msword
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 18:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug 26 17:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Starships: Melting ,or Unmelting?
In-Reply-To: <200208262305.g7QN5fE18166@catenary.cesa.opbu.xerox.com>
References: <20020827084027.E2374@freeman.little-possums.net> <200208262305.g7QN5fE18166@catenary.cesa.opbu.xerox.com>
Message-ID: <20020827100043.A2592@freeman.little-possums.net>

Douglas R Glatz wrote:
> However, I am a big proponent of the KISS field of thought. If you
> have TL 14 sensors, then you probably can defeat TL 13
> countermeasures.  However, if the other ship has TL 15
> countermeasures, it's probably going to be able to defeat your
> sensors

I'd be more inclined to believe that if Traveller had larger jumps
between tech levels.  As it is, TTL 15 isn't really much different
from TTL 12.  You could probably compress TL 12-15 into GURPS TL 10,
and compress TTL 9-11 into GURPS TL 9.

That brings up the other part of the problem: everyone on this list
seems to use different game systems.  If you like, you can think of RL
physics as an underlying game system that more people can agree on :)


> Otherwise, I really believe that the 'physics' of the game will get
> hammered by RL technology advances, for example, computer size, as
> defined by CT.

That's why I'm focussing on physics, not engineering.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 18:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Mon Aug 26 17:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Starships: Melting ,or Unmelting?
Message-ID: <200208270021.NPU03916@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>That brings up the other part of the problem: everyone on 
>this list seems to use different game systems.  If you like, 
>you can think of RL physics as an underlying game system 
>that more people can agree on :)

Even better, we've all made a hodgepodge of rules on our own, 
so none of our systems really match.

I'm thinking that my litmus test for when I use handwaves 
will be "do I need it as a critical plot device?" and "is it 
less obnoxious than another handwave?"

Thus, the air/raft, with its grav drive, is a plot device, 
and is less offensive to me than the Star Trek transporter.  
In fact, one might concede that it is truly a Traveller plot 
device.  If I see one in the Firefly show, and they call it 
an air/raft, and it's a plot device used to transport 
characters from one scene to another, Loren and Mark should 
sue their butts in court.

The "fusion gun" is a plot device.  It makes those neat 
blaster bolts, but it's less offensive than calling it 
a "blaster".

The jump drive and its arbitrary restrictions is a plot 
device - in some ways, I like the stutterwarp better as a 
plot device, but that's officially "not Traveller".

My sensor rules imply that not everything is detectable in 
space, regardless of the physics - and that's only when I 
need them to be that way as a plot device.  But I'm 
consistent - no characters IMTU will be "flying into a 
nebula" or better yet, "flying into an asteroid field" to 
lose somebody.

I'm still wondering what kind of plot device this meson 
thingie is supposed to be.  Maybe it puts an unlocatable ship 
killer on a planet's surface, and makes a planet next to 
impossible to subjugate from above (unless you're willing to 
kill everyone down there and lose half your ships).

Sgt Kwon was touring the main gunnery decks of the Tigress.  
It wasn't often that the crew saw ground pounders in the area 
of the primary meson weapon, other than the Marines who 
served as deck security.  But duty in peacetime is slow, and 
the Marines who stood watch were disinclined to bother the 
sergeant with the niceties.  The duty officer made him sign 
in, and summoned a rating to escort him.

Strolling along the catwalk that lay alongside the multilevel 
spiral tube that was the meson accelerator, Sgt Kwon paused 
to lean over the rail and pat the enormous rings.  

"So, this is the meson thingie...", said Kwon.

"Meson gun," said the rating.

"That's what I said," replied Kwon.

The rating rolled his eyes.
________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 18:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 26 17:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT- I need info on Australian SF writers association.
Message-ID: <OF3697B3A9.0C995FBF-ONCA256C22.000283FA-CA256C22.00037EE4@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Tim -

You asked:
>>I have a friend in Australia who is a pretty good amature writer, and
>>I am looking for information on the Australian science fiction and or
>>fantasy organization for writers so I can pass it on to her. I do not
>>know if I have the right title of the association but someone knows
>>what I am talking about.
>>
>>If someone can send me contact info I would be happy.  Email would be
>>good and a web site would be great.

This just in from Michael Barry (he wrote the shuiglii [sp?] sidebar and 
other bits of Milieu 0):

>David 
>I'm involved with the CSFG (Canberra Speculative Fiction Guild) which
>has open membership (about 1/3 of our members live outside Canberra).
>About half of us have been published in one form of another. We have a
>pretty active email list, and we workshop each others' stories either
>face-to-face or online. 
>
>Your friend can go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CSFG/ for more
>information.

It's a restricted list (to prevent spammers and other loonies joining up).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 19:05:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Mon Aug 26 18:05:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
Message-ID: <20020827010355.71061.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com>

Regarding shooting at distant starships I use the
following house rule, which is kind of stolen from
BTRC's starship combat game SLAG (which incidently can
pretty much make trva ships). The idea in SLAG is that
ships will mostly be under direct computer control
constantly auto-evading. To hit such a ship you will
have to make several hundred shots per a round (pretty
much the idea with those 16 minute book two combat
rounds). So in Trav every G point not used for thrust
goes towards evading (I count normal evading as using
the orientation thrusters)at -1 per point. However
your own weapons will be at -1 per every two G's being
used to evade(You can't aim quite as well). To be
really mean you could make the internal G dampers fail
>;)

P.S. To Greg Porter who I am pretty sure is on this
list. SLAG rocks!

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://digital.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Digital How To
- Get the best out of your PC!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 19:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 26 18:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Salute
Message-ID: <61.24dfc2c0.2a9c3051@aol.com>

>Saluting ,however, I'm thinking that may have come
>from knights lifting the visor in the presence of the
>king or noble present. Anyone have any other data?

Roman bas reliefs show Roman soldiers rendering honors to their superiors by 
lifting the hand in what was later called the "fascist salute." These 
sculptures are called "adlocutio" scenes, IIRC.

I suspect saluting in some form predates the Assyrians . . . 

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 19:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 26 18:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Revising MegaTraveller and Striker
Message-ID: <OFC610F11F.65781234-ONCA256C22.00082C0B-CA256C22.000A0D35@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Hal asked:
>>>CT states that 1 EP (High Guard) = 250 MW.
>>
>>Wasn't that a Striker thing? If so, the easy way is to throw striker
>>out. 
>
>   There is nothing wrong with trying to do exactly that *IF* it resolves 

>some major issues across the board.  What if Each energy point became 25 
>Megawatts instead of 250?

As I suggested, re-peg the EP/MW ratio. You would then have to fix one of 
two problems to do with power plant size.

Problem 1: you use the power output figures as shown, thus allowing pp's 
to drop drastically in size and reduce fuel consumption. Now you have lots 
of extra space, does that throw out game balance as you add new "features" 
such as another flight of fighters, etc.

Problem 2: you reduce the power output of the pp's, meaning that you still 
need a plant of the same size with a fuel comsumption the same size to 
produce the lesser output. Now you have the nuclear physicists of the TML 
up in arms about the inefficiency of your model of fusion power.

;-P

(And that's apart from other possible knock-on effects that I haven't yet 
considered that come from reducing power usage).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 19:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 26 18:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <20020827002202.14447.36058.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17jVbt-0006fB-00@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>

"Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@earthlink.net> wrote:

> >From: sneadj@mindspring.com
> 
> >As for the hacking problem - easy answer - network the vehicles.
> 
> Thanks for that excellent tip!  I wish I'd thought of it myself.  Your
> name will be on the screen when the credits roll after the next
> session of my current campaign.

Glad to be of service sir.  

>From what I've been reading about the way the designs of most 
devices are going, I'm guessing that simply loads of stuff in our 
world will be networked in 10 years.  All the microprocessors in 
everything in your house will communicate (set your alarm and 
shortly before it goes off your entire apartment will enter wake-up 
mode) - you might even be able to ask your computer where in 
your apartment you left your camera (computer talks to camera, 
which talks to all nearby devices and roughly localizes itself...).

I'm guessing that the old ideas of factories, traffic patterns and 
similar stuff being controlled by a single central computer came to 
be because people back in the 50s and 60s could not imagine 
computers being so tiny or ever-present.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com  


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 20:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 26 19:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
Message-ID: <OF32617ABF.91F685C4-ONCA256C22.000A1F2A-CA256C22.000C083E@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Brian said:
>>     How far can a powerplant be "throttled back"?  How fast can it be 
>>brought back up to military maximum?
>
>Perhaps 20 minutes, or a single High Guard turn, might be needed.

Good guess. I don't have the exact MT task to hand, but there *is* such a 
maneuver in canon - the Diskhili Maneuver [sp?], from DGP's _Grand Survey_, a CT product. From memory, the average 
task duration is about 30 minutes, which is why the task states that it is 
useful to have a comptent ship's engineer aboard to speed things up when 
you try this!

Look it up on my website under Library Data ==> D ==> Diskhili Maneuver. And don't worry about its canonical status - DGP wrote MT, which Marc 
vetted, and I'm pretty sure this also appears in the MT Encyclopedia.

>Speaking of power plants, I know this sounds heretical, but has anyone 
ever
>done a Star Trek type power allocation system? As in deciding how much 
power
>to allot to weapons or maneuver?

We do this for the _Eisern Faust_, a stealth intruder scout that the PC's 
in my game... er, _acquired_ from the Ine Givar. It's standard MT output 
is "Faint", but below a certain level it is "Nil", so they're always 
juggling power output when stealthing up to something. Apologies - no 
stats are up on the web as yet.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 20:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug 26 19:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 Characters
In-Reply-To: <000701c24d04$5eed1980$7e12bd50@martinjd>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020825232939.026f3eb0@192.168.0.1>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020826082554.025f3eb0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020826225103.02ac5eb8@192.168.0.1>

At 02:27 PM 8/26/2002 +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
> > Cool.  When are they going to appear in the Rogue's Gallery?
>Not sure. Whenever Hunter posts them, I guess.

Ok.  I was thinking of tweaking or two of them (background wise, not 
mechanics).



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 21:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug 26 20:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <20020827082128.A2374@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020826081859.0250deb8@192.168.0.1>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020825232936.02a14238@192.168.0.1>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020825232936.02a14238@192.168.0.1>
 <20020826144030.A32334@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020826081859.0250deb8@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020826225524.02a42008@192.168.0.1>

At 08:21 AM 8/27/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
> > A restrictive government would want control over these.
>
>Yes, they would.
>
>
> > On the downside, they probably would be *more* effected by weather
> > effects than airframe type aircraft.

[snip]

Ok, if they are more dense, then they will less effected by winds than a 
winged aircraft.
Still, your basic air/raft would be a bitch in storm conditions.  High 
cross winds and all that.
Heck, that's what the high piloting skill is for.

>Yes, they will be a little dependent upon weather conditions, in some
>ways more than ground vehicles.  In some ways less though, since they
>don't have to worry about snowy, icy, or muddy roads.  They will most
>certainly be *much* less affected by weather than any airframe
>vehicle.

Not having to deal with the surface conditions is a given.
I'm talking about the low cost TL 7 frames with the TL 9-C parts added on.
I think it's fair to state that these would be more effected by bad weather 
than TL C grav craft.



----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
Managing sysadmins is like leading a neighborhood gang
of neurotic pumas on jet-powered hoverbikes with nasty
smack habits and opposable thumbs. -- www.monkeybagel.com
----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 21:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Mon Aug 26 20:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Revising MegaTraveller and Striker
References: <B98FABB2.6AF03%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D6AECEB.2148E40F@pobox.com>

Tod Glenn wrote:

> ...
> I don't buy the whole "We don't like the numbers so we'll just change it."
> People on this list are making arguments based on real physics.

Many arguments I see here are based on _current_understanding_ of "real
physics", which is different today than it was when Traveler was first
published, and will be even more different tomorrow.

I have seen it argued here that 'plasma' weapons as depicted in Traveller are
impossible.  Then, a couple of months ago someone posted a link to an article
that indicated the military thinks plasma weapons are feasible and has been
spending millions of dollars over the past few years to develop them.

I started playing Traveller because its 'hard-science' feel appealed to the
techie in me.  But I am willing to suspend disbelief in jump drives, thruster
plates, Grandfather, etc. for the sake of the game.  So long as it is internally
consistent, I'm happy.


> They are
> talking about black body radiation and detectability based on calculated
> values.  Suddenly we see some values we don't like, so we just arbitrarily
> reduce them by an order of magnitude?  That sort of pokes holes in the whole
> 'realistic argument' to heat radiation, doesn't it?

I don't buy into the whole 'realistic argument to heat radiation'.  I refuse to
accept that we have make the game conform to our current notion of physics.

In fact, I would argue that the "realistic heat" argument is contrary to canon.
It's been a while since I played the adventure "Expedition to the Zhodane", but
(IIRC) it includes a stealthy  asteroid ship, which is contrary to the
"realistic heat" argument as presented in this forum.

As with many things in Traveller, Marc does not tell us _how_ it works, merely
that it does.  And that's good enough for me, at least on this subject.

I realize that many here will disagree with me, but that's part of the beauty of
the game.

WKH


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 21:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Mon Aug 26 20:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 Characters
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020826225103.02ac5eb8@192.168.0.1>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020825232939.026f3eb0@192.168.0.1>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020826082554.025f3eb0@192.168.0.1>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020826225103.02ac5eb8@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <200208262313330108.3DB29131@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 8/26/2002 at 10:51 PM Mark Urbin wrote:

>At 02:27 PM 8/26/2002 +0100, MJ Dougherty wrote:
>> > Cool.  When are they going to appear in the Rogue's Gallery?
>>Not sure. Whenever Hunter posts them, I guess.
>
>Ok.  I was thinking of tweaking or two of them (background wise, not 
>mechanics).

Go ahead tweak them and shoot me the changed files. I can always update=
 them if they have already been posted.

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 21:17:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Mon Aug 26 20:17:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Sensor Paradigms
References: <20020826155121.26289.qmail@web12304.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3D6AEEFE.1F29F816@pobox.com>

Matt Ashley wrote:
...
> If you can manipulate gravity and the various nuclear forces and build a jump drive then you can
> surely do some fancy work with decoys and radiation of heat.  At TL-15 they have a fundamentally
> different/more advanced understanding of physics than we do.  Granted that the laws of
> thermodynamics still apply, but we are looking at a likely diference in understanding of the
> universe between the present and TL-15 that exceeds that of Newtonian vs. quantum theories.
> 
> Of course we can't buy into decoying and concealing star ships in interstellar space.  Try
> explaining quantum computing to a TL-0 tribesman.  I think we are stuck in our own paradigm of
> TL-8 or so in trying to figure out the deceptive tactics and starship energy management practices
> of a TL-15 society.  A fun exercise but hard to be very authoritative.

Exactly.

WKH

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 21:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug 26 20:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Revising MegaTraveller and Striker
In-Reply-To: <OFC610F11F.65781234-ONCA256C22.00082C0B-CA256C22.000A0D35@centrelink.gov.au>
References: <OFC610F11F.65781234-ONCA256C22.00082C0B-CA256C22.000A0D35@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <20020827133130.A2762@freeman.little-possums.net>

david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
> Now you have the nuclear physicists of the TML up in arms about the
> inefficiency of your model of fusion power.

No need to worry about that!  The nuclear physicists already think
that CT fusion is grossly inefficient -- another order of magnitude
isn't doing any more injury :^P

At 100% efficiency, one dton of liquid hydrogen fused to helium should
provide 21000 MW-years of energy.  Now you know why GURPS fusion power
plants assume negligible fuel requirements.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 21:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug 26 20:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020826225524.02a42008@192.168.0.1>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020826081859.0250deb8@192.168.0.1> <5.1.0.14.0.20020825232936.02a14238@192.168.0.1> <5.1.0.14.0.20020825232936.02a14238@192.168.0.1> <20020826144030.A32334@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020826081859.0250deb8@192.168.0.1> <20020827082128.A2374@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020826225524.02a42008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020827134306.B2762@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> Still, your basic air/raft would be a bitch in storm conditions.
> High cross winds and all that.

Isn't the basic air raft open-topped?  Given that, I think it would be
a bitch in storm conditions even if it was as stable as a brick. :(

I still think that storm conditions wouldn't affect it that much.  Not
a lot more than a ground vehicle.  That's not to say "trivial",
because even some ground vehicles can be a pain to handle in storm
conditions.  Nowhere near as hard as controlling, say, an airframe
vehicle of similar size, e.g. a Cessna 172.


> I'm talking about the low cost TL 7 frames with the TL 9-C parts
> added on.  I think it's fair to state that these would be more
> effected by bad weather than TL C grav craft.

Yes, they would.  Lack of computer controlled stability features and
probably weaker thrusters would contribute to somewhat more difficulty
in piloting.  You probably wouldn't want to do fancy high-speed
maneuvers between trees under gusty conditions.  Landing would be
trickier than parking a car, but *much* easier than landing an
aircraft under the same conditions.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 21:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cybernaut)
Date: Mon Aug 26 20:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] USS America - Naval crew accommodation/air/raft
In-Reply-To: <000101c24c98$53d4f340$fe205142@george>
Message-ID: <000001c24d7c$4c3943e0$382c5142@george>

I wrote:
- WRT a deck plan for an air/raft based on the Blackhawk layout
- John T. Kwon <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com> wrote:
- - I have a bitmap of the layout if anyone would like it.
-
- If you would like to send me a copy, I can convert it to GIF or
- PNG and post it somewhere that anyone can get a copy of it.

Anyone that wants it can get it in either GIF or PNG format here:
<http://crossroadsrpg.50megs.com/images/>.

I must be Travelling,
Jason

IMTU tc+ ?tm ?tn t4+ tg to ru ge++ !3i c+(-) jt au+ ?st ls pi+ ta+
 he+ kk++ hi+ as++ va ++ ?dr ?ith ?vr ?ne so zh vi+ ?da sy-
Jason Barnabas 0609 A7335880 he+ kk++ hi+ as++ va++ A924


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 21:51:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cybernaut)
Date: Mon Aug 26 20:51:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Moon Q&A
In-Reply-To: <memo.143018@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Message-ID: <000101c24d7c$4e401060$382c5142@george>

- > > Does anyone know what the tallest and lowest point on the moon is?
-
- Highest point: Beta in the Leibnitz Range, at 36,000 feet.
-
- Don't know what the lowest one is, though :-(

Hey Mexal ;-)

I do believe that the lowest known point on the moon is called
something or other rill (or was that rift).  Perhaps it was rille.

Hadley Rille, I think.  One of the Apollo missions landed near
it.  15 or 17, IIRC.  Yep, 15.  Hadley Rille goes to a depth
of c. 1,300' (400 m).  It runs more or less parallel to the
Apennines, which is the highest escarpment on the moon, rising up
to more than 15,000 feet (4572 m) along the southeastern edge of
Mare Imbrium (Sea of Rains).

I must be Travelling,
Jason

IMTU tc+ ?tm ?tn t4+ tg to ru ge++ !3i c+(-) jt au+ ?st ls pi+ ta+
 he+ kk++ hi+ as++ va ++ ?dr ?ith ?vr ?ne so zh vi+ ?da sy-
Jason Barnabas 0609 A7335880 he+ kk++ hi+ as++ va++ A924


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 21:56:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Aug 26 20:56:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Revising MegaTraveller and Striker
In-Reply-To: <20020827133130.A2762@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <B9904501.6AFAB%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/26/02 8:31 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:

> david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
>> Now you have the nuclear physicists of the TML up in arms about the
>> inefficiency of your model of fusion power.
>=20
> No need to worry about that!  The nuclear physicists already think
> that CT fusion is grossly inefficient -- another order of magnitude
> isn't doing any more injury :^P
>=20
> At 100% efficiency, one dton of liquid hydrogen fused to helium should
> provide 21000 MW-years of energy.  Now you know why GURPS fusion power
> plants assume negligible fuel requirements.

That always bothered me.  But then I always assumed (wrongly apparently)
that fuel was carried as water.  I just assumed that most of it was dumped
as coolant.  Of course I was only 15 when I started playing Traveller
(1977).

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 22:01:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug 26 21:01:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <20020827134306.B2762@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020826225524.02a42008@192.168.0.1>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020826081859.0250deb8@192.168.0.1>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020825232936.02a14238@192.168.0.1>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020825232936.02a14238@192.168.0.1>
 <20020826144030.A32334@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020826081859.0250deb8@192.168.0.1>
 <20020827082128.A2374@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020826225524.02a42008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020826235457.02a42008@192.168.0.1>

At 01:43 PM 8/27/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
> > Still, your basic air/raft would be a bitch in storm conditions.
> > High cross winds and all that.
>Isn't the basic air raft open-topped?  Given that, I think it would be
>a bitch in storm conditions even if it was as stable as a brick. :(
>I still think that storm conditions wouldn't affect it that much.  Not
>a lot more than a ground vehicle.  That's not to say "trivial",
>because even some ground vehicles can be a pain to handle in storm
>conditions.  Nowhere near as hard as controlling, say, an airframe
>vehicle of similar size, e.g. a Cessna 172.
> > I'm talking about the low cost TL 7 frames with the TL 9-C parts
> > added on.  I think it's fair to state that these would be more
> > effected by bad weather than TL C grav craft.
>Yes, they would.  Lack of computer controlled stability features and
>probably weaker thrusters would contribute to somewhat more difficulty
>in piloting.  You probably wouldn't want to do fancy high-speed
>maneuvers between trees under gusty conditions.  Landing would be
>trickier than parking a car, but *much* easier than landing an
>aircraft under the same conditions.

Ok, I think at this point it's fair to state that we're in agreement given 
the equipment and settings.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
" I was not trying to be shocking, or to be a pioneer.
I wasn't trying to change society, or to be ahead of my time.
I didn't think of myself as liberated, and I don't believe that I
did anything important. I was just myself. I didn't know any
other way to be, or any other way to live." -- Bettie Page
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 22:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Aug 26 21:09:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Starships: Melting ,or Unmelting?
In-Reply-To: <20020827084027.E2374@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <B9904936.6AFB2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

Please note that this post is not meant to be sarcastic, but just to pijnt
of some inconsistencies.


on 8/26/02 3:40 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:

> Some of us want more detail than has been published, and I for one
> want any such detail to introduce as few lumps of unobtainium as
> reasonably possible.

What?  Ships with reactionless thruster plates, gravity control and jump
drive.  That's a whole lot of unobtainium right there.  I've never been abl=
e
to swallow the whole concept of reactionless drives.  To discuss them in
terms of 'real physics' seems laughable.  To assign them energy requirement=
s
(arbitrarily) means that anything derived from those values is 'unobtanium
tainted'

Any power requirement for reactionless thrusters is a pure guess.  Thus any
details are nothing more than arbitray assignments.  How is this any
different from "They Just Are"?

At one time I ran a Traveller campaign where the only handwave was jump
drive.  It gets quite interesting when you try to build systems that are
realistic
>=20
> It also makes for a rather pointless discussion:
>=20
> "You can't see my ship's waste heat because it has a handwavium spray
> coating of HeatAway"
>=20
> "Well, my ship has Penetron sensors, and can see the waste heat
> inside the ship before it reaches the coating"

How is this different from "maneuver drives and weapons draw too much power=
,
lets reduce the requirements by an order of magnitude" so heat doesn't caus=
e
a problem.?

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 22:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyler Randy)
Date: Mon Aug 26 21:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Starships: Melting ,or Unmelting?
In-Reply-To: <F96eHTgzW2hSsKAfHci00012017@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020827041924.44281.qmail@web12706.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Ken Murphy &lt;murfnmurf@hotmail.com&gt; wrote:
&gt;    I keep seeing the P word (Physics) getting
tossed
&gt; around with regards to 
&gt; this whole energy dispersment/melting/non-melting
&gt; spaceship thread. Now *I* 
&gt; know practically nothing about the big P, but one
&gt; thing I *do* know is, the 
&gt; reason this stuff seems to have a hard time
jibing
&gt; with RWP (Real World 
&gt; Physics)is that while Traveller is often touted
as
&gt; more of a *Hard Science* 
&gt; SF RPG(as opposed to mere Space Opera), it
&gt; remains,in fact, Space Opera.
&gt;    Please keep in mind that its the *57th*
century
&gt; in the OTU,folks(I have 
&gt; no idea what the timeline is in
GURPSTRAV)--that's
&gt; somwhere between the year 
&gt; 5,601 and 5,699 AD; anywhere from 3,599 to
&gt; 3,697years into the future from 
&gt; *right now*.
&gt;    Compare our undestanding of Physics 3,600
years
&gt; ago to what it is 
&gt; *now*.Unless we oh-so-clever monkeys are a *lot*
&gt; brighter than we really 
&gt; are, I figure there's bound to be *plenty* of
room
&gt; yet for groundbreaking, 
&gt; as-yet-undreamt-of discoveries to be discovered
in
&gt; the field of Physics by 
&gt; the time the 57th Century rolls around.
&gt;    A ship can safely (and routinely) travel as
much
&gt; as 18 or so LY in the 
&gt; span of a week, yet has to worry about getting
rid
&gt; of waste heat?
&gt;    Heck, today's big heat dispersment problems
&gt; might've been taken care of 
&gt; by simple application of a large can of *Heat
&gt; Away*(Now with 30% more 
&gt; Handwavium!)sprayed on the ship's hull as it
rolls
&gt; off the assemblyline.
&gt;    The easiest answer to why things are the way
they
&gt; are in the future is: 
&gt; *They just are*
&gt;   -Ken-

Agreed.

Scientists of the 19th century didn't know if one
could travel faster than 60 miles/hr since their
limited understanding seemed to indicate that friction
would burn up objects at such velocities. Scientists
of the mid 20th century didn't know if man could break
the sound barrier or live in low earth orbit gravity
without dying. Scientists of today don't understand
the &#34;magic&#34; of higher TL's as depecited in
Traveller. It is futile to try to explain higher TL's
science based upon our understanding of science today.


Traveller was designed to be a realitively loose set
of rules and guidelines for creating a RPG where the
referee can simulate a &#34;reality&#34; of any or a
certain Sci-fi book, movie, etc or the OTU. The
referee has to fill in gaps to suit his understanding
of this &#34;reality&#34;. Explaining Traveller
science based upon our present understanding of
science inhibits the ability to suspend disbelief and
enjoy Traveller for what it is, an RPG.

IMO, 

Randy Tyler

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 22:30:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug 26 21:30:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020826235457.02a42008@192.168.0.1>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020826225524.02a42008@192.168.0.1> <5.1.0.14.0.20020826081859.0250deb8@192.168.0.1> <5.1.0.14.0.20020825232936.02a14238@192.168.0.1> <5.1.0.14.0.20020825232936.02a14238@192.168.0.1> <20020826144030.A32334@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020826081859.0250deb8@192.168.0.1> <20020827082128.A2374@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020826225524.02a42008@192.168.0.1> <20020827134306.B2762@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020826235457.02a42008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020827142948.A2997@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> Ok, I think at this point it's fair to state that we're in agreement
> given the equipment and settings.

Yes, I'd say so.

Interestingly, my absolute cheapest rock-bottom-price grav vehicle
(for a certain performance) under GURPS rules with TL-varying currency
conversions and reasonable import costs worked out to be powered by a
TL 5 airscrew motive system with a coal-fired steam engine.  The
weight penalty doesn't matter as much when CG has such a large fixed
cost and very little cost per extra unit of weight.


I can just imagine a number of such contraptions in use on a poor TL 5
backwater planet.  Talk about a mess of disparate technologies ...


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 22:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug 26 21:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Starships: Melting ,or Unmelting?
In-Reply-To: <B9904936.6AFB2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020827084027.E2374@freeman.little-possums.net> <B9904936.6AFB2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020827144316.B2997@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> What?  Ships with reactionless thruster plates, gravity control and
> jump drive.  That's a whole lot of unobtainium right there.

Yes, it is.  Note that I want to limit introducing *more* unobtainium
than has already been published.  One of the reasons is that there is
quite plenty enough already.

To put it another way: I'll (somewhat grudgingly) accept official
published unobtainium, but even then I want to limit how much it
"taints".


> Any power requirement for reactionless thrusters is a pure guess.

I'd call it a game-world definition rather than a guess.  The word
"guess" assumes that there is some reality to compare your guess to.
If a guess, at least it is an official, published, "guess" based on
design parameters.

I'll accept spray-on handwavium "HeatAway" when it gets a solid
write-up in a canonical game supplement and not before.  Maybe not
even then.


> At one time I ran a Traveller campaign where the only handwave was
> jump drive.  It gets quite interesting when you try to build systems
> that are realistic

Yes, I ran a space campaign (not remotely similar to Traveller) in
which I did much the same thing.


> How is this different from "maneuver drives and weapons draw too
> much power, lets reduce the requirements by an order of magnitude"
> so heat doesn't cause a problem.?

It isn't much different at all.  I'm much more in favour of exploring
the consequences of the original power consumptions than arbitrarily
slashing them.  However, since I don't own CT, my participation in
such a discussion would be severely limited if it did not share
anything with real-world physics.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 22:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Mon Aug 26 21:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Starships: Melting ,or Unmelting?
In-Reply-To: <20020827041924.44281.qmail@web12706.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <F96eHTgzW2hSsKAfHci00012017@hotmail.com> <20020827041924.44281.qmail@web12706.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020827144816.C2997@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tyler Randy wrote:
> The referee has to fill in gaps to suit his understanding of this
> &#34;reality&#34;. Explaining Traveller science based upon our
> present understanding of science inhibits the ability to suspend
> disbelief and enjoy Traveller for what it is, an RPG.

I am a referee.  I choose to fill in the gaps with real-world physics
where possible.

Why do you think that would *inhibit* suspension of disbelief?  In my
experience, it strengthens it greatly -- exactly the opposite of what
you claim.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 22:53:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Mon Aug 26 21:53:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <20020827142948.A2997@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020826235457.02a42008@192.168.0.1>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020826225524.02a42008@192.168.0.1>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020826081859.0250deb8@192.168.0.1>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020825232936.02a14238@192.168.0.1>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020825232936.02a14238@192.168.0.1>
 <20020826144030.A32334@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020826081859.0250deb8@192.168.0.1>
 <20020827082128.A2374@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020826225524.02a42008@192.168.0.1>
 <20020827134306.B2762@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020826235457.02a42008@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020827004617.01d2da38@192.168.0.1>

At 02:29 PM 8/27/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
> > Ok, I think at this point it's fair to state that we're in agreement
> > given the equipment and settings.
>
>Yes, I'd say so.
>Interestingly, my absolute cheapest rock-bottom-price grav vehicle
>(for a certain performance) under GURPS rules with TL-varying currency
>conversions and reasonable import costs worked out to be powered by a
>TL 5 airscrew motive system with a coal-fired steam engine.  The
>weight penalty doesn't matter as much when CG has such a large fixed
>cost and very little cost per extra unit of weight.

Steam! He's using Steam! I fornicating love it!
I've just been digging into the great Steampunk Comic "Girl Genius"
<http://www.studiofoglio.com/girlgenius.html>

>I can just imagine a number of such contraptions in use on a poor TL 5
>backwater planet.  Talk about a mess of disparate technologies ...

I'm gonna have to to have one of these things in the back woods of 
Garda-Vilis somewhere.
Can you please post the stats?


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Blend 'B', meanwhile, is a PROUD blend, defiant yet petulant...a blend
that grabs you, shakes you by the collar and cries, 'ACCEPT me, damn you,
or turn me away-BUT FOR GOD'S SAKE DON'T POLLUTE ME WITH NON-DAIRY
CREAMER!'" - Tripp Biscuit while coffee tasting.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 22:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 26 21:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] CT Stuff (was Starships: Melting ,or Unmelting?)
In-Reply-To: <20020827144316.B2997@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20020827084027.E2374@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <B9904936.6AFB2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <20020827144316.B2997@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <2657.64.8.3.28.1030424329.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

Hello Tim,
  Classic Traveller Reprints are available at your game shop if you want
  to get your hands on them.

For what it is worth?  I try to translate the feel of CT into GURPS
TRAVELLER where such an effort is worth it.  Otherwise - I stay away from
using CT stuff as is.  Ultimately - I use CT stuff where GURPS TRAVELLER
is lacking, and GURPS TRAVELLER stuff where CT is lacking.  GURPS
TRAVELLER could stand to have something like POCKET EMPIRES, TRILLION
CREDIT SQUADRON and STRIKER if you ask me ;)

            Hal



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 23:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matt Ashley)
Date: Mon Aug 26 22:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Steampunk Air Rafts
In-Reply-To: <20020827043003.20257.98063.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020827045901.83400.qmail@web12308.mail.yahoo.com>

>> Interestingly, my absolute cheapest rock-bottom-price grav vehicle
> (for a certain performance) under GURPS rules with TL-varying currency
> conversions and reasonable import costs worked out to be powered by a
> TL 5 airscrew motive system with a coal-fired steam engine.  The
> weight penalty doesn't matter as much when CG has such a large fixed
> cost and very little cost per extra unit of weight.
> 
> 
> I can just imagine a number of such contraptions in use on a poor TL 5
> backwater planet.  Talk about a mess of disparate technologies ...
> 
> 
> - Tim

Absolutely outstanding!!!!  Steampunk meets Dulinor :)

I think it would be a hoot to have the players land on some TL-5 back water and see one of those
contraptions fly by.  What a great idea.

How about have galley slaves on treadmills turning an airsrew?  Tl-1 or TL-2 maybe!  Now that
would be truly cool for the local Cleopatra to lounge by in...

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 23:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Aug 26 22:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Steampunk Air Rafts
In-Reply-To: <20020827045901.83400.qmail@web12308.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B9905783.6AFC2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/26/02 9:59 PM, Matt Ashley at helvorn@yahoo.com wrote:

>=20
> Absolutely outstanding!!!!  Steampunk meets Dulinor :)
>=20
> I think it would be a hoot to have the players land on some TL-5 back wat=
er
> and see one of those
> contraptions fly by.  What a great idea.
>=20
> How about have galley slaves on treadmills turning an airsrew?  Tl-1 or T=
L-2
> maybe!  Now that
> would be truly cool for the local Cleopatra to lounge by in...
>=20

How else does one get around on Barsoom?
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Mon Aug 26 23:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyler Randy)
Date: Mon Aug 26 22:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Starships: Melting ,or Unmelting?
In-Reply-To: <20020827144816.C2997@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020827055301.79291.qmail@web12704.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
wrote:
> 
> I am a referee.  I choose to fill in the gaps with
> real-world physics
> where possible.
> 
> Why do you think that would *inhibit* suspension of
> disbelief?  In my
> experience, it strengthens it greatly -- exactly the
> opposite of what
> you claim.
> 
> 
> - Tim
> 

Where possible, what about those gaps you can't
explain? You are trying to explain them based upon a
present day scientific understanding. At best you can
do what the designers did, extrapolate. At some point
the difficulty of explaination of the required science
becomes so daunting that the players and you have to
suspend your disbelief that such system or science
"can't operate" based on our understanding. Your use
of real world (presently understood) physics to fill
gaps where possible allow your players and you a
broader basis of believing about the possibliities of
future TL advancements. If a gap or inconsistency
can't be filled by RL physics then the players and you
have to have some suspension of disbelief (of the
physics "magic" required).

Traveller is a RPG, not a total simulation of
celestial interplanetary physics, chemistry, etc. 

The recent posts about power plant energy outputs
illuminating a ship vast distances based upon present
physics understanding may make one judge that ships
can be easily tracked. Or one could argue that the
advancements in scientific understanding could be very
different from today and base such a decision in their
"faith" that scientific achievement will triumph and
offer new explainations allowing the ship to hide it's
power plant energy signature. It's a judgement call by
the referee. The more canon items, based on our
present scientific understanding, introduced into
Traveller means more chances of discrepency later (as
TL advances - like Traveller's computers).

Hopefully you understand my intent and explaination.

Randy Tyler

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 00:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Mon Aug 26 23:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <E17jVbt-0006fB-00@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <E17jVbt-0006fB-00@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <m3adn8kf5x.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

sneadj@mindspring.com writes:
> 
> I'm guessing that the old ideas of factories, traffic patterns and
> similar stuff being controlled by a single central computer came to
> be because people back in the 50s and 60s could not imagine
> computers being so tiny or ever-present.

MSFT and friends would like that to still be the case...

Don't get me started on my `server' rant:-)

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Don't buy what you can't pay for.  But when it comes to software, don't
pay for what you can't buy.                          --seen on Slashdot

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 00:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 26 23:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <20020827043003.20257.98063.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17jZdt-00041w-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> wrote:

> Mark Urbin wrote:
> 
> > I'm talking about the low cost TL 7 frames with the TL 9-C parts
> > added on.  I think it's fair to state that these would be more
> > effected by bad weather than TL C grav craft.
> 
> Yes, they would.  Lack of computer controlled stability features and
> probably weaker thrusters would contribute to somewhat more difficulty
> in piloting.  You probably wouldn't want to do fancy high-speed
> maneuvers between trees under gusty conditions.  Landing would be
> trickier than parking a car, but *much* easier than landing an
> aircraft under the same conditions.

Most definitely, landing and taking off with a plane or a helicopter is 
a tricky maneuver that requires a fair amount of skill.  Landing any 
form of grav vehicle will be dead easy, you imply hover and set 
down slowly.  In high wind or bad weather you will need to do this 
more slowly and with greater care, but it's still going to be a dream 
compared to setting down a plane in high wind or bad weather.

I'm guessing automated landing software and hardware for grav 
vehicles will be very common and fairly simple (radar linked to 
thrust and lift) and may well be included on such vehicles if all of 
the electronics are TL 9+.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 00:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug 26 23:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Posting from more than one address
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEOICEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Listmom <listmom@travellercentral.com>
>
>If you want to be able to post from more than one email address, but only
>receive mail at a single address, here's how to do it.

Thanks, Listmom, from the bottom of my
too-lazy-to-read-through-the-instructions-on-travellercentral.com heart.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 00:43:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon Aug 26 23:43:12 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Prevalence of grav vehicles
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDAEOJCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: sneadj@mindspring.com
>
>From what I've been reading about the way the designs of most
>devices are going, I'm guessing that simply loads of stuff in our
>world will be networked in 10 years.  All the microprocessors in
>everything in your house will communicate (set your alarm and
>shortly before it goes off your entire apartment will enter wake-up
>mode) - you might even be able to ask your computer where in
>your apartment you left your camera (computer talks to camera,
>which talks to all nearby devices and roughly localizes itself...).

Keys and glasses, those are what will need to be networked, until they, too,
become obsolete.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 00:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Mon Aug 26 23:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <E17jZdt-00041w-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <B9906D8B.6AFC7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/26/02 11:15 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
>=20
> Most definitely, landing and taking off with a plane or a helicopter is
> a tricky maneuver that requires a fair amount of skill.  Landing any
> form of grav vehicle will be dead easy, you imply hover and set
> down slowly.  In high wind or bad weather you will need to do this
> more slowly and with greater care, but it's still going to be a dream
> compared to setting down a plane in high wind or bad weather.

I'm supposing that there's some sort of station keeping thrusters linked to
a positional device like GPS or inertial location?  I'd still expect some
jostling, since the sensors can't predict wind thrust, but it will be
nothing compared to conventional aircraft (assuming positional thrusters ar=
e
suitable powerful and react with near instantaneous response)
>=20
> I'm guessing automated landing software and hardware for grav
> vehicles will be very common and fairly simple (radar linked to
> thrust and lift) and may well be included on such vehicles if all of
> the electronics are TL 9+.


The real question is, if it's all automatic and easy, why is there air/raft
skill?  Doesn't that sort of imply that the operator has an impact on the
craft, and that it requires a certain amount of skill to operate it?

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 00:50:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 26 23:50:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Knowing and doing
Message-ID: <17c.d6d7c9f.2a9c79a8@aol.com>

 >>     "Trade does not consist only of goods and services, it also consists 
of 
 >>ideas."
 >
 >
 >Sir,
 >
 >    A very good point, but if those seeds don't fall on the proper soil?

If no good soil can be found after a few hundred years, then I'd have to say 
we're looking at a permanent tech level 0 world.

 >>     "If the low tech world in question is at all dynamic and forward 
 >>looking..."
 >
 >   No small assumption given Real World experiences.

Yeah, that's true.  China had many opportunites to move ahead, but 
deliberately quashed them all.  India foundered for centuries, though lately 
it's making up for lost time.  For that matter so is China.  Africa is ... 
well, let's not go there.

On the other hand, we have the example of Japan.  It went from backward 
isolationist mediaeval nothing to bombing Pearl Harbor in 87 years.  Even 
today after being nuked and undergoing 10 years of recession it's still the 
second largest economy in the world.  I'd have to say that if a world won't 
advance by means of business and learning then it will be conquered by one 
that will, and a world's tech level should rise that way.  Consider the Boers 
and British in South Africa.

 >>     "A tech 6 world would represent an enormous profit opportunity for a 
 >>tech 9 businessman who sees a society capable of advancing in certain 
 >>directions and knows how to direct that advancement."
 >
 >   Not profit by advancement, profit by looting, corruption, and cheap 
 >labor.  If not overseen by a government and society focussed on 
advancement, 
 >off-world "investment" will follow the path of least resistance; i.e. 
 >resource recovery operations and the use of "meat puppets" assembling goods 
 >by hand.

It seems to me that most industrialized nations started on their path to 
wealth that way.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 00:54:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 26 23:54:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
Message-ID: <119.1665e093.2a9c7adb@aol.com>

 > Of course we can't buy into decoying and concealing star ships in 
interstellar   
 >space.  Try
 >explaining quantum computing to a TL-0 tribesman.  I think we are stuck in 
our own 
 >paradigm of
 >TL-8 or so in trying to figure out the deceptive tactics and starship 
energy 
 >management practices
 >of a TL-15 society.  A fun exercise but hard to be very authoritative.

Reading through this entire discussion, that's what keeps running through my 
head too.

I think the best anyone can hope for is to make handwaves in favor of 
creating a good RPG.  If anyone wants more than that then I'm afraid the only 
answer is to go work for NASA.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 00:58:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Mon Aug 26 23:58:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Revising MegaTraveller and Striker
Message-ID: <175.d92b9a0.2a9c7cc8@aol.com>

 >> some major issues across the board.  What if Each energy point became 25
 >> Megawatts instead of 250?
 >>=20
 >
 >That's still a bit of a hand wave, isn't it?

So are jump drives and fusion power plants.  Not to mention gravitics.  
Traveller is one big handwave, decorated with a scientific vocabulary.  You 
can't take the science any further than that without leaving behind a 
perfectly good RPG.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 01:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug 27 00:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <B9906D8B.6AFC7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <E17jZdt-00041w-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net> <B9906D8B.6AFC7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020827170014.D2997@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> The real question is, if it's all automatic and easy, why is there
> air/raft skill?

Same reason there's a computer operation skill -- you still have to
know how to instruct the air raft to do what you want, and with more
advanced levels of skill be able to push beyond what the automatic
systems are capable of.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 01:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 27 00:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Starships: Melting ,or Unmelting?
Message-ID: <1a1.7acff22.2a9c7ecb@aol.com>

 > "You can't see my ship's waste heat because it has a handwavium spray
 >coating of HeatAway"
 >
 >"Well, my ship has Penetron sensors, and can see the waste heat
 >inside the ship before it reaches the coating"

That's why we have referees and game masters.  They decide who has what, and 
then the game can continue.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 01:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug 27 00:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Starships: Melting ,or Unmelting?
In-Reply-To: <1a1.7acff22.2a9c7ecb@aol.com>
References: <1a1.7acff22.2a9c7ecb@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020827174455.A3442@freeman.little-possums.net>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> That's why we have referees and game masters.  They decide who has
> what, and then the game can continue.

Yes, and a as referee I'll use real-world physics in preference to
making stuff up on the fly.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 01:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug 27 00:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Starships: Melting ,or Unmelting?
In-Reply-To: <20020827055301.79291.qmail@web12704.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020827144816.C2997@freeman.little-possums.net> <20020827055301.79291.qmail@web12704.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020827175811.B3442@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tyler Randy wrote:
> If a gap or inconsistency can't be filled by RL physics then the
> players and you have to have some suspension of disbelief (of the
> physics "magic" required).

I still don't see why you think that's harder to achieve than
suspending disbelief in stuff made up out of thin air.


> Or one could argue that the advancements in scientific understanding
> could be very different from today and base such a decision in their
> "faith" that scientific achievement will triumph and offer new
> explainations allowing the ship to hide it's power plant energy
> signature.

One could equally well argue based on "faith" that scientific
achievement will triumph and offer new explanations allowing the ship
to be tracked even more accurately.

That's why I prefer to use pre-existing rules, whether game or
physics: there's less ambiguity and hence less room for the players or
referee to experience unpleasant surprises later.


> The more canon items, based on our present scientific understanding,
> introduced into Traveller means more chances of discrepency later
> (as TL advances - like Traveller's computers).

The more judgement calls that are made up on the fly by the referee,
the more chances of discrepancy later.  That's one reason why I use
real-world physics in the first place: our current physical models
have been intensively "play-tested" by thousands of the smartest
people on the planet over a few hundred years.  Why not use them?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 02:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Tue Aug 27 01:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 Characters
In-Reply-To: <001801c24cfa$41995ce0$3f64ff3e@bloodyhellfire>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020825232939.026f3eb0@192.168.0.1>
 <009401c24ce2$4719fac0$9011bd50@martinjd>
 <001801c24cfa$41995ce0$3f64ff3e@bloodyhellfire>
Message-ID: <20020827083839.7f0348f5.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Mon, 26 Aug 2002 13:15:04 +0100
Simon Brodie <mr.fingle@virgin.net> wrote:

> please see attached character roster for T20 at Gencon UK.
> 
> Any and all comments gratefully received.
>
<snip>
> 
> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
> multipart/mixed
>   text/plain (text body -- kept)
>   application/msword
> ---

First comment : StripMime removes attachments sent to the list

  :-)

You need to place them on the web somewhere.

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 03:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Tue Aug 27 02:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: OT,but sort of funny
References: <47.22143de4.2a9a6c42@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D699708.4000007@usisp.com>

>
>
>"Why are manhole covers round?" 
>
    Manhole covers are round because the smallest dimension in a round 
manhole is always larger than the
largest dimension of the lip it rests on. That is not true for any other 
shape. Therefore, the manhole cover
cannot ever fall into the manhole.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 03:09:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Tue Aug 27 02:09:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
References: <00d801c24caf$acc62610$1001a8c0@sauron>
Message-ID: <3D699E8A.20605@usisp.com>

Frankie wrote:

>
>Again, HOW ?
>
>How do you measure power oputput when you haven't got a meter attached
>to the generator, and the ship could be radiating in all sorts of
>directions, on thousands of wavelengths, and differently in each ?
>
    Umm , I could be wrong, but how about measuring it using the same 
methods we use
to measure the sun's output. The power plant is fusing and if too much 
is shielded inside the
ship...the shielding will burn. The energy has to go somewhere.
    I remember in the book 'Sundiver', a laser was used to project the 
energy away from the ship.
If this is really possible, then the energy radiated away could be by 
laser and aimed into deep space away from
habitable worlds or likely enemy locations.
    Just an idea.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 03:12:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Tue Aug 27 02:12:59 2002
Subject: [TML] wet navies
References: <3D68857B.7030005@usisp.com> <002c01c24c7f$99221360$0415bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <3D69A1FF.9090708@usisp.com>

Catgod wrote:

>>    I just looked up super cavitation. Torpedoes in excess 300 kts.
>>Explosion on Kursk probably caused by test 'sqvall'
>>
>
>yes indeed. There are possibilities for airborne platforms using
>supercavitating gun projectiles to kill mines, underwater guns for torpedo
>defense, and 300kph fighter-subs. Fun stuff.
>
With such cool stuff, why doesn't anyone seem to care for wet navies. 
CT/MT had carreers for it.
There are some lower tech worlds with oceans that would use wet ships, 
aren't there?

How do canon starship weapons function under water? Or would 
supercavitating torps be better.
( I doubt space missles would feature supercavitation.) Could a tech 9 
supercavitating sub be
able to best a spaceship of equal displacement in an undersea battle?

Spaceships probably would feature supercavitation as a builder's option. 
I imagine such technologies
would advance to be workable in compressable fluids...like gas giant 
atmospheres for refueling.
But the equipment used may be different than what is used for 
non-compressable liquids (water)
and the failure of either would be .......very painful.

I hope a neglected branch of the military finally gets its due now. 
After all, it was the branch I was in the RW.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 03:17:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeffrey Yin)
Date: Tue Aug 27 02:17:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Starships: Melting ,or Unmelting?
References: <20020827144816.C2997@freeman.little-possums.net> <20020827055301.79291.qmail@web12704.mail.yahoo.com> <20020827175811.B3442@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <OE72tKeFy49iGm4vCz100005681@hotmail.com>

> The more judgement calls that are made up on the fly by the referee,
> the more chances of discrepancy later.  That's one reason why I use
> real-world physics in the first place: our current physical models
> have been intensively "play-tested" by thousands of the smartest
> people on the planet over a few hundred years.  Why not use them?
>
>
> - Tim

Well, perhaps because they are sometimes lacking in fun.  First of all,
physics can be a lot more complicated then handwaving.  As a mere law
student, I personally do not want to (assuming I even could) have to
calculate the effectiveness of my engines, I'd rather write down "6G" and
pay the cost in tons and creds.  Real world physics, while useful in
providing a solid backdrop, wouldn't seem as efficient as quick and clean
solutions based on good old common sense.  Especially in light of the fact
that you might have to calculate the physical implications of things we
currently cannot do, or in some cases believe may never be done, all with
insufficient and second or even third hand data.

Now, I'm not saying don't use real physics.  I'm just saying that for some
people, that level of accuracy is not only unnecessary, but potentially
counterproductive.

Jeff Yin

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 03:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug 27 02:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: OT,but sort of funny
In-Reply-To: <3D699708.4000007@usisp.com>
References: <47.22143de4.2a9a6c42@aol.com> <3D699708.4000007@usisp.com>
Message-ID: <20020827192857.A3631@freeman.little-possums.net>

richard honeycutt wrote:
>     Manhole covers are round because the smallest dimension in a
> round manhole is always larger than the largest dimension of the lip
> it rests on. That is not true for any other shape. Therefore, the
> manhole cover cannot ever fall into the manhole.

It's actually true for lots of other shapes.

The circle does have other advantages, such as being easy to roll into
position, and not having to worry about aligning it in the correct
orientation.

Of course, it should also be pointed out that despite the advantages
of the circular shape, not all manhole covers are round :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 03:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Simon Brodie)
Date: Tue Aug 27 02:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 Characters
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020825232939.026f3eb0@192.168.0.1><009401c24ce2$4719fac0$9011bd50@martinjd><001801c24cfa$41995ce0$3f64ff3e@bloodyhellfire> <20020827083839.7f0348f5.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <006601c24daf$a540d420$1869ff3e@bloodyhellfire>

> On Mon, 26 Aug 2002 13:15:04 +0100
> Simon Brodie <mr.fingle@virgin.net> wrote:
>
> > please see attached character roster for T20 at Gencon UK.
> >
> > Any and all comments gratefully received.
> >
> <snip>
> >
>
> First comment : StripMime removes attachments sent to the list
>
>   :-)
>
> You need to place them on the web somewhere.
>
> * Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
> | jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
> | ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
> * http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

Oh, I am sooo ashamed

:-(

If someone can send me hunter's off-list e-mail, I will send the characters
to him for putting on the website.  Or if anyone else wants them, e-mail me
off list.

they are a crew of 6, 5th level characters.  Humans and Vargr, Merchants and
Scouts.  They have a decent cross-fertilization of skills and feats to allow
5 of them to operate without losing too much capability.  There is a Male
Human noble merchant 'owner aboard', an energetic Female Human Scout pilot,
an optimistic Female Vargr Scout/Merchant Engineer, a somewhat bitter and
twisted Male Vargr Scout/Merchant Gunner/JOT (the lifemate of the engineer),
a gung-ho Male Human scout gunner with a selection of firearms (just to keep
you Yanks happy :-) ) and a Male Human merchant steward who is on the run
from not inconsiderable gambling debts.

Simon





From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 04:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Tue Aug 27 03:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Knowing and doing
In-Reply-To: <20020826000244.10848.6586.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208271207440.8515-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Timothy Little writes:

>Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>
>>Timothy Little writes:
>>>It becomes a little more difficult to explain why a TL 6 world stays
>>>TL 6 after a few hundred to a thousand years of significant trade with
>>>a large number of worlds having higher tech levels.
>
>>Simple. [...] said world does not have a significant amount of trade
>>with higher-TL trade partners.
>
>Did you miss the question completely?  We were talking about the
>situation of low-tech worlds that *do* have significant trade.

Not if your assumptions are correct, you're not. Which means that one or
more of your assumptions must be wrong.

>The problem is that the Imperium is based on trade,

The Imperium claims that it is based on trade. Not quite the same thing.
Maybe it is actually based on the trade of a fraction of its members.

>and a very large proportion of its members are low-tech and have been for
>centuries. Given your simple explanation, why then do most of its members
>have insignificant amounts of trade?

Because most of the Imperium's members are insignificant when it comes to
trade?

>It is also the reverse of the situation in Far Trader, where the
>low-tech worlds have a generally *higher* proportion of trade than the
>high-tech ones.  Typically by a factor of more than ten.

Which means that either the situation in FT is wrong or one or more of
your assumptions are wrong. Maybe the one about trade inevitably
increasing the TL of the lower-TL partner?

And indeed, "Larsen E. Whipsnade" adds a certain support to that
possibility:

>     There may be a few people in what passes for urban centers in
>Zaire/Congo/Fill-in-the-Blank who live at a higher TL then their ancestors
>did a century ago, but I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of
>people in that portion of our world live no better and at the same TL as
>their ancestors in the late 1800's did; and that is after a century of trade
>with higher tech societies.
>     Congo/Zaire has supplied the world with uranium, gemstones, natural
>rubber, and other treasures for over 100 years, but is no better off (and is
>most likely worse) than it was before that time.  Why?  Because the benefits
>of that trade have been siphoned off by equally corrupt foreigners and
>locals alike for their own purposes.



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 04:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 27 03:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Revising MegaTraveller and Striker
Message-ID: <3d76e83db8a5.3db8a53d76e8@us.army.mil>

<<snip>>
> 
> If you fix lasers and M-Drives to use less (those being the two 
> biggest hogs 
> on any non-spinal-equipped design), you may also wish to restore 
> the CT ratio 
> for jump fuel, so that ships have a reason to carry any fuel at all.

AFAIK, MT is the only Trav ruleset with reduced jump fuel requirements.  
I know that T4 uses the same 10% of hull volume per jump number as CT.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 04:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug 27 03:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020827004617.01d2da38@192.168.0.1>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020825232936.02a14238@192.168.0.1> <5.1.0.14.0.20020825232936.02a14238@192.168.0.1> <20020826144030.A32334@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020826081859.0250deb8@192.168.0.1> <20020827082128.A2374@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020826225524.02a42008@192.168.0.1> <20020827134306.B2762@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020826235457.02a42008@192.168.0.1> <20020827142948.A2997@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020827004617.01d2da38@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020827202429.B3631@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> I'm gonna have to to have one of these things in the back woods of
> Garda-Vilis somewhere.  Can you please post the stats?

I've just done a rough job, I'm afraid.  Here's what I've got:

Construction:
350 cf light very cheap structure, with DR 5 cheap wooden "armour".
Fixed skids.  35 kW early TL 5 airscrew, 16000 lb TL 9 contragrav
(using 16 kW).  51 kW early steam engine, consuming 5.1 cf coal/hour.
2 crew stations (pilot and stoker), 30 cf coal bunker (1500 lb).
150 cf cargo or passenger space.  Cheaply built.

Statistics:
12620 lb empty mass, 15560 lb loaded.  Size +4.
Aerial top speed 50 mph, maneuver rating 0.5 gees, stability rating 1.
Endurance 5.9 hours, maintenance 4 hours per 280 hours of flight.
Cost: 2870 TL 5 credits.


Add local flavour items to taste :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 04:30:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen)
Date: Tue Aug 27 03:30:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Knowing and doing
In-Reply-To: <20020826042302.16155.63930.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208271221450.8515-100000@ask.diku.dk>

Flykiller@aol.com writes:
>>Simple. Assuming for purposes of argument that a significant amount of
>>trade will inevitably raise the TL of the lower-TL trade partner (which
>>is, I'd like to point out, only an assumption -- a pretty plausible
>>assumption, but nevertheless only an unproven assumption), the fact that a
>>world stays at TL 6 for centuries merely shows that said world does not
>>have a significant amount of trade with higher-TL trade partners.
>
>Even if trade were miniscule, there are still problems.  Trade does not
>consist only of goods and services, it also consists of ideas.  If the low
>tech world in question is at all dynamic and forward looking it wouldn't neet
>vast fleets bringing trade goods, it would only need a few hundred professors
>and industrialists to jump start its progress.

Then maybe those worlds are not at dynamic and forward looking. Or maybe
it is a little more complicated than that. Who pays the professors? What
makes you think the industrialists don't have better investment
opportunities closer to home?

>A tech 6 world would represent an enormous profit opportunity for a tech
>9 businessman who sees a society capable of advancing in certain
>directions and knows how to direct that advancement.

Tech uplifting is clearly possible. Equally clearly either no one wants to
pay for uplifiting the TL 6 society or the TL 6 society does not want to
be uplifted (maybe because they don't care for what it would cost them in
the long run).



Hans


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 04:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug 27 03:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Knowing and doing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208271207440.8515-100000@ask.diku.dk>
References: <20020826000244.10848.6586.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208271207440.8515-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <20020827203947.C3631@freeman.little-possums.net>

Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> Not if your assumptions are correct, you're not. Which means that
> one or more of your assumptions must be wrong.

So you agree with what I'm driving at.


> The Imperium claims that it is based on trade. Not quite the same thing.

No, the published game material explicitly states that the Imperium is
based on trade.  That's in the authorial voice, not in-game.


> Maybe it is actually based on the trade of a fraction of its members.

That may well be true.  It's looking like the only plausible
explanation so far.  The only problem is, why aren't the rest trading?
What preventative factors would persist for a millennium?


> > Given your simple explanation, why then do most of its members
> >have insignificant amounts of trade?
> 
> Because most of the Imperium's members are insignificant when it comes to
> trade?

That's not an answer, you're just repeating the question.


> Which means that either the situation in FT is wrong

... which is probably the more likely explanation in my opinion ...

> or one or more of your assumptions are wrong. Maybe the one about
> trade inevitably increasing the TL of the lower-TL partner?

Or one of your assumptions is wrong.

I'm not claiming inevitability, just moderately high likelihood over
periods of more than ten centuries.  Most of the cultures on Earth
changed unrecognizably after just *one* century of significant contact
with a higher tech society.  How many could remain unchanged for ten?


> And indeed, "Larsen E. Whipsnade" adds a certain support to that
> possibility:
> 
> >     There may be a few people in what passes for urban centers in
> >Zaire/Congo/Fill-in-the-Blank who live at a higher TL then their
> >ancestors did a century ago,
[...]

What about the next *ten* centuries?  Do you really think they are
going to remain just as they are now for the whole of the next
millennium?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 05:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Aug 27 04:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re:  Revising MegaTraveller and Striker
In-Reply-To: <3d76e83db8a5.3db8a53d76e8@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <3D6C0476.18976.15B89C@localhost>

On 27 Aug 2002 at 13:20, john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:

> 
> <<snip>>
> > 
> > If you fix lasers and M-Drives to use less (those being the two 
> > biggest hogs 
> > on any non-spinal-equipped design), you may also wish to restore 
> > the CT ratio 
> > for jump fuel, so that ships have a reason to carry any fuel at all.
> 
> AFAIK, MT is the only Trav ruleset with reduced jump fuel requirements.  
> I know that T4 uses the same 10% of hull volume per jump number as CT.

TNE/FF&S1 also uses the MT 5 + 5 x Jn formula for jump fuel. If it 
didn't there'd be no room for manoeuvre fuel, given how greedy HEPlaR 
drives are (compared to thrusters, CT Book2 rockets, etc.) For course 
this means that a high-jump ship that 'short jumps' has a fairly 
substantial boot to its manoeuvre capacity, and high delta-V ships 
often have the potential to multi-jump if they aren't forced to 
manoeuvre much.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 05:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Aug 27 04:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <E17jZdt-00041w-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
References: <20020827043003.20257.98063.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020827074909.00cd4ff8@192.168.0.1>

At 11:15 PM 8/26/2002 -0700, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
[snip]
>Most definitely, landing and taking off with a plane or a helicopter is
>a tricky maneuver that requires a fair amount of skill.  Landing any
>form of grav vehicle will be dead easy, you imply hover and set
>down slowly.

Somehow I don't think this is the case if you have to shovel coal to keep 
your air/raft moving. :-)


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Vikings? There ain't no Vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was
burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway.
That's our story and we're sticking to it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 05:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Aug 27 04:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Steampunk Air Rafts
In-Reply-To: <B9905783.6AFC2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020827045901.83400.qmail@web12308.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020827074713.018137f0@192.168.0.1>

At 10:09 PM 8/26/2002 -0700, Tod Glenn wrote:
>on 8/26/02 9:59 PM, Matt Ashley at helvorn@yahoo.com wrote:
> > Absolutely outstanding!!!!  Steampunk meets Dulinor :)
> > I think it would be a hoot to have the players land on some TL-5 back water
> > and see one of those
> > contraptions fly by.  What a great idea.
> > How about have galley slaves on treadmills turning an airsrew?  Tl-1 or 
> TL-2
> > maybe!  Now that
> > would be truly cool for the local Cleopatra to lounge by in...
>How else does one get around on Barsoom?

You beat me to it.  I was about to say we're getting ready for a Space:1889 
crossover here...



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joan of Arc: the patron saint of welders
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/RPG/SV/TRAV/GH/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 05:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Aug 27 04:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <20020827202429.B3631@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020827004617.01d2da38@192.168.0.1>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020825232936.02a14238@192.168.0.1>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020825232936.02a14238@192.168.0.1>
 <20020826144030.A32334@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020826081859.0250deb8@192.168.0.1>
 <20020827082128.A2374@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020826225524.02a42008@192.168.0.1>
 <20020827134306.B2762@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020826235457.02a42008@192.168.0.1>
 <20020827142948.A2997@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020827004617.01d2da38@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020827075651.01902050@192.168.0.1>

At 08:24 PM 8/27/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
> > I'm gonna have to to have one of these things in the back woods of
> > Garda-Vilis somewhere.  Can you please post the stats?
>I've just done a rough job, I'm afraid.  Here's what I've got:
>Construction:
>350 cf light very cheap structure, with DR 5 cheap wooden "armour".
>Fixed skids.  35 kW early TL 5 airscrew, 16000 lb TL 9 contragrav
>(using 16 kW).  51 kW early steam engine, consuming 5.1 cf coal/hour.
>2 crew stations (pilot and stoker), 30 cf coal bunker (1500 lb).
>150 cf cargo or passenger space.  Cheaply built.
>
>Statistics:
>12620 lb empty mass, 15560 lb loaded.  Size +4.
>Aerial top speed 50 mph, maneuver rating 0.5 gees, stability rating 1.
>Endurance 5.9 hours, maintenance 4 hours per 280 hours of flight.
>Cost: 2870 TL 5 credits.

Ok, I'm going to have to dig out my copy of GURPS:Vehicles and muck around 
a bit.

You're getting the power to drive the contragrav from the steam engine?
Is the electrical generation implied?



----------------------------------------------
"Function in disaster. Finish in style."
-- Lucy Madeira http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
----------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 06:02:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Aug 27 05:02:22 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 Characters
In-Reply-To: <006601c24daf$a540d420$1869ff3e@bloodyhellfire>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020825232939.026f3eb0@192.168.0.1>
 <009401c24ce2$4719fac0$9011bd50@martinjd>
 <001801c24cfa$41995ce0$3f64ff3e@bloodyhellfire>
 <20020827083839.7f0348f5.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020827075207.01828280@192.168.0.1>

At 10:52 AM 8/27/2002 +0100, Simon Brodie wrote:
[snippy]
>If someone can send me hunter's off-list e-mail, I will send the characters
>to him for putting on the website.  Or if anyone else wants them, e-mail me
>off list.

Quick question.  Are you a T20 playtester?  The only character gen rules 
that are out for Merchants.


>they are a crew of 6, 5th level characters.  Humans and Vargr, Merchants and
>Scouts.  They have a decent cross-fertilization of skills and feats to allow
>5 of them to operate without losing too much capability.  There is a Male
>Human noble merchant 'owner aboard', an energetic Female Human Scout pilot,
>an optimistic Female Vargr Scout/Merchant Engineer, a somewhat bitter and
>twisted Male Vargr Scout/Merchant Gunner/JOT (the lifemate of the engineer),
>a gung-ho Male Human scout gunner with a selection of firearms (just to keep
>you Yanks happy :-) ) and a Male Human merchant steward who is on the run
>from not inconsiderable gambling debts.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 06:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Tue Aug 27 05:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Starships: Melting ,or Unmelting?
In-Reply-To: <OE72tKeFy49iGm4vCz100005681@hotmail.com>
References: <20020827144816.C2997@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <20020827055301.79291.qmail@web12704.mail.yahoo.com>
 <20020827175811.B3442@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020827082737.00a44b00@mail.buffnet.net>

Hello Jeff,


>Well, perhaps because they are sometimes lacking in fun.  First of all,
>physics can be a lot more complicated then handwaving.  As a mere law
>student, I personally do not want to (assuming I even could) have to
>calculate the effectiveness of my engines, I'd rather write down "6G" and
>pay the cost in tons and creds.  Real world physics, while useful in
>providing a solid backdrop, wouldn't seem as efficient as quick and clean
>solutions based on good old common sense.  Especially in light of the fact
>that you might have to calculate the physical implications of things we
>currently cannot do, or in some cases believe may never be done, all with
>insufficient and second or even third hand data.
>
>Now, I'm not saying don't use real physics.  I'm just saying that for some
>people, that level of accuracy is not only unnecessary, but potentially
>counterproductive.
>
>Jeff Yin

GURPS TRAVELLER uses the nomenclature of 6 gee's of acceleration for its 
ships.  It uses the concept that computers take up a set amount of space 
based on what we know *today*.  It also tries to create a set of rules that 
at least approximate reality so that someone can simulate a world war II 
warplane and have its stats come out close to that of a the real life 
analog.  People can state that it takes 6 hours to reach Jupiter from Earth 
using a 6 Gee acceleration.  The next game run, they can state that it 
takes 12 hours to do that same trip.  Or, after someone who is versed in 
physics takes the task of figuring out the real numbers as a *pleasurable 
math exercise* determines the real time that it takes using those 
parameters.  In short, the use of real life physics does one thing for the 
game.  It removes the need to guess at what should or should not be 
possible in a game.  Can you stand on your feet upright, with only 3" 
clearance between the top of your head and the ceiling, in a normal 1 G 
modern earth environment - do a standing quadruple somersault and land on 
your feet?  Of course not.  So you know not to try it or you will land 
awkwardly on some portion of your anatomy.  That is a "RULE" that you 
instinctively use in the game.  The players know not to even attempt it 
because they can easily visualize that it will fail.

Fact: Iron has a density of approximately 7 grams per cubic centimeter (I 
hope I"m remembering that correctly!).  If something is made such that by 
volume, it contains 40,000 cubic centimeters of Iron, you would expect it 
to weigh 280,000 grams, or approximately 620 lbs in weight.  If some yahoo 
says it weighs only 30 lbs because they decide to "approximate it from thin 
air", then is it wrong for someone else to point out that it should weigh 
some 20 times more?

All in all, some people pick apart the physics of things within the game 
because they can see where the problems lie.  If you have zero technically 
competent individuals in the game - they likely won't care if something is 
stated to weigh 30 lbs when it should weigh 620 lbs.  If the GM is 
technically competent, and/or his players are technically competent, you 
know that there is going to be a few raised eyebrows when the GM says "It 
weighs only 30 lbs - made of the finest unubtanium Iron in the galaxy."

For myself?  I'd rather play Traveller after it has been worked over by 
serveral "experts" who have taken some of the major inconsistencies out of 
the game - than to play it when it was devised by one man who was not an 
expert in 17 different scientific fields of study!  Marc set the ball in 
motion.  And for its time, it was GREAT.  Now - lets improve upon it and 
enjoy it.  Pick your level of sophistication.  You want to play CT?  By all 
means do so!  You like using MT?  Then use it.  If you like GURPS TRAVELLER 
- by all means, enjoy it.

Commentary: STAR TREK made an attempted to bypass some limitations in its 
genre by calling its energy weapons Phasers instead of Lasers.  While Laser 
technology was budding at the time of Star Trek's inception - the script 
writers did not want to run afoul calling something Laser only to have some 
yahoo say "but lasers don't work that way" or "but lasers can't do 
that!".  By calling some of the sensors "Radar" or "Ladar" or anything else 
that exists in reality - Traveller is stuck with having to stay within 
reasonable limits or else have the same reaction I spoke of earlier regards 
to that object made of iron.  Had Traveller spoken of Muon Sensors, or 
Quarkoid sensors - then you can watch as someone says "It uses mesons or 
muons or quarkons or zipons to measure the gravitational waves produced 
and..."  Get my drift?  No one can say yes or no to the explanation.  No 
one can argue with you how much energy it takes to make the sensors work.

                                   Hal


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 07:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Tue Aug 27 06:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Economics of Technology
In-Reply-To: <17c.d6d7c9f.2a9c79a8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020827085656.00a49e50@mail.buffnet.net>

Hello Folks,

Flykiller makes some valid points in another thread, as does the poster of 
the original objections below (sorry I didn't keep the attribution correct)...
See below.


>  >   Not profit by advancement, profit by looting, corruption, and cheap
>  >labor.  If not overseen by a government and society focussed on
>advancement,
>  >off-world "investment" will follow the path of least resistance; i.e.
>  >resource recovery operations and the use of "meat puppets" assembling 
> goods
>  >by hand.
>
>It seems to me that most industrialized nations started on their path to
>wealth that way.



One thing to remember here is that other nations on Earth have a very 
structured culture where the rich are rich and the poor are poor.  It is 
possible that the United States will reach that status soon enough.  Point 
is?  In America - in theory, every one is equal to everyone else.  The 
common class had the chance to amass enough "fortune" to be well enough off 
to enjoy the benefits of a higher tech society.  In Latin America - we have 
a lot of people who are not *developing* technology - they are buying 
it.  Only those who can afford to purchase the technology have access to 
it.  Meanwhile, the poorer people do not have access to the tech benefits 
because they don't have the money.  Not because they don't want it - but 
because they can't *have* it - yet.  When the poor look upwards at their 
social betters and say "Hey, we want that too, and we WILL have it" you get 
revolutions.  During revolutions, they smash the rich to loot what they 
have and then settle into a new 'Haves versus have nots" struggle.  It is 
only when everyone benefits not only from the toil of the labors - but 
benefits from the toil of trying to get ahead, will we see a society that 
embraces technological growth and prosperity.  When goats can be sold for 
$2 per pound, and a goat herder only makes a yearly amount of say, $5000 a 
year - can he afford to buy a car that costs $15,000?  Can he afford to pay 
the upkeep costs involved for that car?  If the goat herder's expenses per 
year are $4,000 for himself and family - can he afford to buy luxuries that 
cost $500 to buy and $500 to use for the year?  Barely.  And that is if he 
budgets himself tightly.
Now - enter in a factory owner.  He offers the working people wages that 
are higher than what the local "aristocrats" pay the locals.  His labor 
costs are phenomenally low compared with a nearby higher tech world.  He 
ships the factory equipment to the lower tech world.  He trains his new 
work force.  He imports the infrastructure needed not only for his factory, 
but for a higher tech enjoyment of the inhabitants.

Wanna see how a man with a higher tech base can get wealthy quick?

1) he buys power generation equipment and operates it.  He charges the 
locals for the benefit of having power in their homes.  His high tech power 
generator is modest by normal standards, but is cheaper to run than the low 
tech power generation systems on the low tech world.  He does this because 
he earns income on the very thing he needs for his factories... power.

2) he buys cheap luxuries or necessities for the work force he will 
employ.  A simple "clinic" will dispense better medical treatment to the 
locals than what the "local aristocrats" provide.  Even if he operates it 
at cost - he's still making out like a bandit because he is keeping his 
cheap labor force healthy and he's generating good will.

3) due to the monopoly on higher tech gadgets and/or knowledge, our budding 
Rockefeller or Gates, monopolizes as much as he can with the local 
populace.  He insinuates himself with the local society such that he 
provides the rich and middle class of the world, with things they don't 
provide on their own.

4) the man in the mean time, has figured out, that the cheaper work force 
expense plus the expense of shipping the product per unit, is *still* 
cheaper than manufacturing that same item on a higher tech world.  So he 
ships his product to the higher tech world instead of manufacturing it on 
the higher tech world.  An example of this in today's society would be the 
electronics manufacturing in Asia...

5) now his workers are earning more than the locals are, but less than what 
the "high tech world" workers are.  They can afford some higher tech 
luxuries with their money.  He imports goods that he knows the locals will 
want.  He opens stores.  He opens service providers and so forth.  He even 
runs a local school that uplifts the poor's education levels to something 
that is worth having.  Why?  Because by now, the "businessman" realizes 
there is more money to be had by diversifying.  He realizes that the locals 
want luxuries.  For a modest investment of finding a how to book about the 
lifestyle of the high tech world some 200 years ago - he learns how to 
manufacture primitive TV's or radios etc...  He doesn't even have to do the 
R&D if he doesn't want to.  Or?  He uses modern luxury goods produced 
elsewhere in the Imperium.

In short - human greed and human nature being what it is - will ultimately 
make it so that someone coming in from a high tech world to a lower tech 
world - has the opportunity to make his money.  Why are western companies 
fighting for access to Japan or China's markets?  Because there is a profit 
to be made.  And the more profit there is to be made, the more people will 
fight until the profit to be made is marginal (i.e. too many 
competitors).  But if there are too many competitors?  Chances are, that 
world has finally reached a high tech status on its own.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 07:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Aug 27 06:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Starships: Melting ,or Unmelting?
Message-ID: <200208271350.NQW02443@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Hal says
>Had Traveller spoken of Muon Sensors, or Quarkoid sensors - 
>then you can watch as someone says "It uses mesons or 
>muons or quarkons or zipons to measure the gravitational 
>waves produced and..."  Get my drift?  No one can say yes or 
>no to the explanation.  No one can argue with you how much 
>energy it takes to make the sensors work.

Ah, but they did put meson thingies in the game.  Meson guns, 
meson communicators, meson screens.  All so we can shoot and 
communicate directly through the mass of a planet.  They 
called them mesons, and the half-life thing bothers Tim.

But meson thingies are plot devices...  

Wheeler has a good book on gravitation and spacetime that's 
good for twisting your forebrain into a knot, especially if 
you still have a Newtonian vision of gravity, or have the 
idea that gravity is a property of matter.

Imagine that I'm sitting on the surface of a trampoline.  I 
have mass, so the surface is depressed.  If you put a tennis 
ball on the trampoline, the ball rolls towards me.  My mass 
is not exerting a force on the tennis ball - the tennis ball 
is obeying the constraints of local spacetime.  The questions 
that the higher tech levels have to answer in order to get to 
antigravity is "in which dimension is the surface depressed" 
and "how do we raise that surface in the opposite direction 
in that dimension".  But I can't manipulate spacetime in the 
current tech (maybe it's the precursor knowledge to using a 
jump drive).

To me, pulling that curved spacetime up seems far more 
difficult if I'm in a pit, than if I'm sitting in open space 
with no planet around.  So even if I say that's how 
antigravity works, the energy requirements seem inconsistent.

I'll look the other way.  My ships have gravitic drives (so I 
don't smoke the starport).  There are grav vehicles (so I can 
have an air raft as a plot device).  I have gravitic 
compensators on the ship (to prevent making jam out of the 
crew).  And I'll say the jump drive is an outgrowth of the 
ability to manipulate spacetime (so I won't have to explain 
anymore about the handwave).

Hey!  It's Traveller!


________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 08:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Aug 27 07:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] USS North Carolina: in the belly of the beast (long)
In-Reply-To: <20020826.012817.8r9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020819134229.009f1320@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020826122701.009ff570@mindspring.com>

At 01:28 AM 8/26/02 -0800, you wrote:
> > USS Hornet, in Alameda, California.  San Francisco has a WWII submarine.
>
>And Portland, OR has the USS Bluefin, one of the last (if not the last)
>deisel subs in commision. They had great fun with it when we had record
>floods a few years back.

We toured that when we visited in July.  Very interesting.


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 08:33:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Tue Aug 27 07:33:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Starships: Melting ,or Unmelting?
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E9E@USCHM203>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
>In response to Ken Murphy at murfnmurf@hotmail.com wrote:

"> The easiest answer to why things are the way they are in the future is:
> *They just are*
> -Ken-"

You are of course right, Ken.  A similar argument erupted over the actual
usefulness of the cutlass in Traveller.  The correct answer is "It's
Traveller"  therefore marines use cutlasses.

>And IMTU, Laser fit in turrets, Ships are limited to 6Gs of acceleration,
>there are no gravitic thruster plates, etc.

>I happen to like the idea of ships being able to 'run silent', and a
>submarine like sudden-death hide and seek feel to space combat.  Therefore,
>ships can power down and hide, and are difficult to detect.  Captains take
>use their skill and experience to have a major impact on the outcome of
>battles.  It's not just about who has the best ship.

>It's been my experience that when you try to add the real life physics, it
>all starts to break down.  And I have been very disappointed with some of
>the later systems.  I haven't done any work designing ships with FFS, but
>when designing small arms (something I know quite a lot about) it becomes
>obvious to me that the system is badly broken.

>As we say, IMTU...and YMMV.

Some years back Microsoft came out with a Spaceship Simulator. It had real
physics, real acceleration, and real gravity effects.
Was it fun? It was actually, but apparrantly not fun enough for the average
person to find a wide audience.
Was it more fun than X-Wing or Wing Commander? Of course not.
These games are obviously broken in terms of physics, but that shouldn't
lessen one's enjoyment.
I'm all for good hard science, as much as you can use. It's not only
enjoyable from a "this could really happen" perspective, but is an asset to
an individual's education.
I mentioned once before that I learned more about science and history due to
a desire to make Traveller more realistic and enjoyable than I ever would
have from mere school assignments.
However, as with any game, and wargamers know this more than anyone, there
are times when realism must be sacrificed for playability, and that includes
the "fun factor".

Running silent into an enemy system and maneuvering for advantage is fun.
Standing by while the biggest ship with the biggest guns win every time is
not.

Giant spiders are fun.
Lectures on how giant insects can not exist because they don't have lungs
are not.

Trying to hammer out a replacement part for a starship drive on a an Iron
Age forge on a backward world is fun.
Pointing out that worlds with iron age technology are unlikely in and around
an old interstellar community is, while interesting and probably with some
merit, is not really much fun.

Don't get me wrong. I enjoy the debates, learn alot about all kinds of
topics, and my interest in science fiction goes beyond Traveller, so what is
not of use in Traveller is certainly of use to me in other areas---I just
wonder sometimes how much actual FUN we're having when we actually sit down
to play.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 08:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Tue Aug 27 07:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The defining moment in TL change
Message-ID: <200208271438.NQY01125@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

I'd much rather have a coarse grained TL change, with much 
fewer tech levels.  The change in TL would be defined by a 
major leap in physics and engineering.

Some crude shops in Third World countries can make a TL 6 or 
TL 7 assault rifle by hand.  From scratch.  I don't believe, 
however, that these people could have invented such a thing 
on their own.

I keep hearing stories that Pakistan was able to build their 
nukes only after substantial Chinese help in understanding 
the engineering problem.  They can probably make more now, 
but can they really improve on the models they have without a 
deeper understanding?

And when we go to TL 9, which IMTU means a radical change in 
our ability to manipulate spacetime (jump drive, gravity 
manipulation), is the underlying physics something that only 
a handful of people can really understand enough to be 
creative in the applied engineering of such devices?  This 
sort of thing could keep people back for a long time.

How many Ramanujan-like people do we have every generation?
________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 08:43:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ramspite)
Date: Tue Aug 27 07:43:05 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 Characters
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020825232939.026f3eb0@192.168.0.1>
 <009401c24ce2$4719fac0$9011bd50@martinjd>
 <001801c24cfa$41995ce0$3f64ff3e@bloodyhellfire>
 <20020827083839.7f0348f5.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020827075207.01828280@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <000901c24dd9$5c3def40$0200a8c0@mshome.net>

You should check the website, they just added the scout preview.

-Ramspite
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Urbin" <eclipse@urbin.net>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 6:55 AM
Subject: Re: [TML] T20 Characters


> At 10:52 AM 8/27/2002 +0100, Simon Brodie wrote:
> [snippy]
> >If someone can send me hunter's off-list e-mail, I will send the
characters
> >to him for putting on the website.  Or if anyone else wants them, e-mail
me
> >off list.
>
> Quick question.  Are you a T20 playtester?  The only character gen rules
> that are out for Merchants.
>
>
> >they are a crew of 6, 5th level characters.  Humans and Vargr, Merchants
and
> >Scouts.  They have a decent cross-fertilization of skills and feats to
allow
> >5 of them to operate without losing too much capability.  There is a Male
> >Human noble merchant 'owner aboard', an energetic Female Human Scout
pilot,
> >an optimistic Female Vargr Scout/Merchant Engineer, a somewhat bitter and
> >twisted Male Vargr Scout/Merchant Gunner/JOT (the lifemate of the
engineer),
> >a gung-ho Male Human scout gunner with a selection of firearms (just to
keep
> >you Yanks happy :-) ) and a Male Human merchant steward who is on the run
> >from not inconsiderable gambling debts.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
> "Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
> burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 08:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Aug 27 07:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] actual fun
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E9E@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <006201c24dda$d9718520$1611bd50@martinjd>


> Don't get me wrong. I enjoy the debates, learn alot about all kinds of
> topics, and my interest in science fiction goes beyond Traveller, so what
is
> not of use in Traveller is certainly of use to me in other areas---I just
> wonder sometimes how much actual FUN we're having when we actually sit
down
> to play.
>

Know what you mean, dude.

I'm (on the one hand) desperate about plausibility. On the other, it's got
to be fun.

I tend to err on the side of fun. hence certain editorial decisions in T20,
where we've kept "broken" CT concepts in because they make for a fun game
(and other reasons too.)

Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-to-the-Masses
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 08:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 27 07:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <20020827143304.2160.74121.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17jhi8-0001BU-0U@anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net>

> (using 16 kW).  51 kW early steam engine, consuming 5.1 cf coal/hour.
> 2 crew stations (pilot and stoker), 30 cf coal bunker (1500 lb).

What about a water tank? What little memory I have left is failing, but I seem to recall that steam engines (locomotives) would go through a roughly similar amount of water as they would coal - steam locomotives carrying 2500-ish gallons of water in the tender as well as coal, for example.

Rob.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 09:00:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Aug 27 08:00:09 2002
Subject: [TML] THe TML'Starships: Melting ,or Unmelting?
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E9E@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <20020827145829.61170.qmail@web20906.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> wrote:
> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> >In response to Ken Murphy at murfnmurf@hotmail.com
> wrote:
> 
> "> The easiest answer to why things are the way they
> are in the future is:
> > *They just are*
> > -Ken-"
> 
> You are of course right, Ken.  A similar argument
> erupted over the actual
> usefulness of the cutlass in Traveller.  The correct
> answer is "It's
> Traveller"  therefore marines use cutlasses.
> 
> >And IMTU, Laser fit in turrets, Ships are limited
> to 6Gs of acceleration,
> >there are no gravitic thruster plates, etc.
> 
> >I happen to like the idea of ships being able to
> 'run silent', and a
> >submarine like sudden-death hide and seek feel to
> space combat.  Therefore,
> >ships can power down and hide, and are difficult to
> detect.  Captains take
> >use their skill and experience to have a major
> impact on the outcome of
> >battles.  It's not just about who has the best
> ship.
> 
> >It's been my experience that when you try to add
> the real life physics, it
> >all starts to break down.  And I have been very
> disappointed with some of
> >the later systems.  I haven't done any work
> designing ships with FFS, but
> >when designing small arms (something I know quite a
> lot about) it becomes
> >obvious to me that the system is badly broken.
> 
> >As we say, IMTU...and YMMV.
> 
> Some years back Microsoft came out with a Spaceship
> Simulator. It had real
> physics, real acceleration, and real gravity
> effects.
> Was it fun? It was actually, but apparrantly not fun
> enough for the average
> person to find a wide audience.
> Was it more fun than X-Wing or Wing Commander? Of
> course not.
> These games are obviously broken in terms of
> physics, but that shouldn't
> lessen one's enjoyment.
> I'm all for good hard science, as much as you can
> use. It's not only
> enjoyable from a "this could really happen"
> perspective, but is an asset to
> an individual's education.
> I mentioned once before that I learned more about
> science and history due to
> a desire to make Traveller more realistic and
> enjoyable than I ever would
> have from mere school assignments.
> However, as with any game, and wargamers know this
> more than anyone, there
> are times when realism must be sacrificed for
> playability, and that includes
> the "fun factor".
> 
> Running silent into an enemy system and maneuvering
> for advantage is fun.
> Standing by while the biggest ship with the biggest
> guns win every time is
> not.
> 
> Giant spiders are fun.
> Lectures on how giant insects can not exist because
> they don't have lungs
> are not.
> 
> Trying to hammer out a replacement part for a
> starship drive on a an Iron
> Age forge on a backward world is fun.
> Pointing out that worlds with iron age technology
> are unlikely in and around
> an old interstellar community is, while interesting
> and probably with some
> merit, is not really much fun.
> 
> Don't get me wrong. I enjoy the debates, learn alot
> about all kinds of
> topics, and my interest in science fiction goes
> beyond Traveller, so what is
> not of use in Traveller is certainly of use to me in
> other areas---I just
> wonder sometimes how much actual FUN we're having
> when we actually sit down
> to play.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
>
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 09:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Aug 27 08:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] THe TML's Dirty Little Secret (was: Starships: Melting ,or Unmelting?)
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22E9E@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <20020827152149.61387.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> wrote:
>
> Don't get me wrong. I enjoy the debates, learn alot
> about all kinds of
> topics, and my interest in science fiction goes

Hah, someone finally said it out loud.  I'm not sure
how much I differ from others, but I would suspect
there are several of you just like me.

I play in a few Traveller games.  Whether you play or
ref and whether it is F2F or PBEM or IRC doesn't
matter.

Occasionally a few tidbits from the TML will find its
way into my game.  But for the most part, MTU and my
Refs' TUs are pretty well defined as far as game
mechanics and physics.

But I'm still here on the TML.  And Brian brought out
the dirty little secret about why, at least for me. 
I'm sure there are some of you like me, so fess up so
that I don't feel alone.

I'm here on the TML because I learn so much about so
much.  In homeschooling, this is call the coat rack
theory.  Find somethin the student loves (in my case
Traveller), and us it as a coat rack to hang the coats
(lessons) on.  So I can learn about physics,
astrophysics, projectiles, blades (although that went
a bit far), strategy, law, economics, military
procedure, history, etc, etc, etc.

Thanks to all the experts, I have learned more on the
TML than I would have on my own over the same time
period.  And here, it's fun.  Not as fun as a game,
but fun none the less.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 09:36:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Aug 27 08:36:58 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 Characters
Message-ID: <20020827153528.5FB2A451A@mo110usjc.palm.net>

--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
text/plain 
--- StripMime Errors ---
A message with no plaintext section was received.
The entire body of the message was removed.  Please
resend the email using plaintext formatting
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 09:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matt Ashley)
Date: Tue Aug 27 08:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Upgrading LoTech
In-Reply-To: <20020827143304.2160.74121.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020827154244.82433.qmail@web12302.mail.yahoo.com>

> Wanna see how a man with a higher tech base can get wealthy quick?
> 

All of the below will work nicely until you get the whiny protestors, most of whom live nicely
priveledged lives complaining about globalization.  Or you get the local kleptocrats complaining
about "rivers of poverty" or "modern apartheid" as an excuse to nationalize you or guilt you into
sending them aid to divert to their bank accounts on Ruie.

> 1) he buys power generation equipment and operates it.  He charges the 
> locals for the benefit of having power in their homes.  His high tech power 
> generator is modest by normal standards, but is cheaper to run than the low 
> tech power generation systems on the low tech world.  He does this because 
> he earns income on the very thing he needs for his factories... power.
> 
> 2) he buys cheap luxuries or necessities for the work force he will 
> employ.  A simple "clinic" will dispense better medical treatment to the 
> locals than what the "local aristocrats" provide.  Even if he operates it 
> at cost - he's still making out like a bandit because he is keeping his 
> cheap labor force healthy and he's generating good will.
> 
> 3) due to the monopoly on higher tech gadgets and/or knowledge, our budding 
> Rockefeller or Gates, monopolizes as much as he can with the local 
> populace.  He insinuates himself with the local society such that he 
> provides the rich and middle class of the world, with things they don't 
> provide on their own.
> 
> 4) the man in the mean time, has figured out, that the cheaper work force 
> expense plus the expense of shipping the product per unit, is *still* 
> cheaper than manufacturing that same item on a higher tech world.  So he 
> ships his product to the higher tech world instead of manufacturing it on 
> the higher tech world.  An example of this in today's society would be the 
> electronics manufacturing in Asia...
> 
> 5) now his workers are earning more than the locals are, but less than what 
> the "high tech world" workers are.  They can afford some higher tech 
> luxuries with their money.  He imports goods that he knows the locals will 
> want.  He opens stores.  He opens service providers and so forth.  He even 
> runs a local school that uplifts the poor's education levels to something 
> that is worth having.  Why?  Because by now, the "businessman" realizes 
> there is more money to be had by diversifying.  He realizes that the locals 
> want luxuries.  For a modest investment of finding a how to book about the 
> lifestyle of the high tech world some 200 years ago - he learns how to 
> manufacture primitive TV's or radios etc...  He doesn't even have to do the 
> R&D if he doesn't want to.  Or?  He uses modern luxury goods produced 
> elsewhere in the Imperium.
> 
> In short - human greed and human nature being what it is - will ultimately 
> make it so that someone coming in from a high tech world to a lower tech 
> world - has the opportunity to make his money.  Why are western companies 
> fighting for access to Japan or China's markets?  Because there is a profit 
> to be made.  And the more profit there is to be made, the more people will 
> fight until the profit to be made is marginal (i.e. too many 
> competitors).  But if there are too many competitors?  Chances are, that 
> world has finally reached a high tech status on its own.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 10:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Tue Aug 27 09:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
Message-ID: <E17jitU-0003Yi-00@fifi.runbox.com>

Time to dust off the Space 1889 rules.  Replace liftwood with grav modules =
and you now have some additional adventure ideas.

Beth

> Mark Urbin wrote:
> > I'm gonna have to to have one of these things in the back woods of
> > Garda-Vilis somewhere.  Can you please post the stats?
>=20
> I've just done a rough job, I'm afraid.  Here's what I've got:
>=20
> Construction:
> 350 cf light very cheap structure, with DR 5 cheap wooden "armour".
> Fixed skids.  35 kW early TL 5 airscrew, 16000 lb TL 9 contragrav
> (using 16 kW).  51 kW early steam engine, consuming 5.1 cf coal/hour.
> 2 crew stations (pilot and stoker), 30 cf coal bunker (1500 lb).
> 150 cf cargo or passenger space.  Cheaply built.
>=20
> Statistics:
> 12620 lb empty mass, 15560 lb loaded.  Size +4.
> Aerial top speed 50 mph, maneuver rating 0.5 gees, stability rating 1.
> Endurance 5.9 hours, maintenance 4 hours per 280 hours of flight.
> Cost: 2870 TL 5 credits.
>=20
>=20
> Add local flavour items to taste :)
>=20
>=20
> - Tim
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>=20

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 10:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas R Glatz)
Date: Tue Aug 27 09:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Economics of Technology
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 27 Aug 2002 09:27:32 EDT."
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020827085656.00a49e50@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020827165116.E960E279DF@mail.travellercentral.com>

> Wanna see how a man with a higher tech base can get wealthy quick?
> 
> 1) he buys power generation equipment and operates it.  He charges the 
> locals for the benefit of having power in their homes.  His high tech power 
> generator is modest by normal standards, but is cheaper to run than the low 
> tech power generation systems on the low tech world.  He does this because 
> he earns income on the very thing he needs for his factories... power.
> 

Except that he is going to have to import the technicians to run and maintain 
it (at least at the start) and pay them at the level they *know* they should 
be paid at, plus bonuses for dragging them out into the outback.  They, in 
turn, will be communicating their contempt of the 'ignorant savages' in their 
dealings with the natives (or at the very least, rubbing their own 
'sophistication' in).  For a historical example, I draw your attention to the 
period when India was an English colony.

> 2) he buys cheap luxuries or necessities for the work force he will 
> employ.  A simple "clinic" will dispense better medical treatment to the 
> locals than what the "local aristocrats" provide.  Even if he operates it 
> at cost - he's still making out like a bandit because he is keeping his 
> cheap labor force healthy and he's generating good will.
> 
Until such time as the planet's government thinks that the local know-how is 
sufficient to work the plant - and then the owner is given a one-way ticket 
off the planet and *perhaps* enough time to catch the starship.  I draw your 
attention to the nationalization of oil in the Middle East in the 60's and 
70's.

> 3) due to the monopoly on higher tech gadgets and/or knowledge, our budding 
> Rockefeller or Gates, monopolizes as much as he can with the local 
> populace.  He insinuates himself with the local society such that he 
> provides the rich and middle class of the world, with things they don't 
> provide on their own.
> 
> 4) the man in the mean time, has figured out, that the cheaper work force 
> expense plus the expense of shipping the product per unit, is *still* 
> cheaper than manufacturing that same item on a higher tech world.  So he 
> ships his product to the higher tech world instead of manufacturing it on 
> the higher tech world.  An example of this in today's society would be the 
> electronics manufacturing in Asia...
>

And then is subjected to repeated investigations of his 'sweatshop labor', 
'inhumane working conditions' and a host of other subjective values as defined 
by the world receiving those goods.  I draw your attention to the garment 
industry, Nike, and almost any other corporation manufacturing in the Asia and 
selling in Europe or America.  (Not that some of those investigations 
*weren't* justified).

> 
> 5) now his workers are earning more than the locals are, but less than what 
> the "high tech world" workers are.  They can afford some higher tech 
> luxuries with their money.  He imports goods that he knows the locals will 
> want.  He opens stores.  He opens service providers and so forth.  He even 
> runs a local school that uplifts the poor's education levels to something 
> that is worth having.  Why?  Because by now, the "businessman" realizes 
> there is more money to be had by diversifying.  He realizes that the locals 
> want luxuries.  For a modest investment of finding a how to book about the 
> lifestyle of the high tech world some 200 years ago - he learns how to 
> manufacture primitive TV's or radios etc...  He doesn't even have to do the 
> R&D if he doesn't want to.  Or?  He uses modern luxury goods produced 
> elsewhere in the Imperium.
> 
> In short - human greed and human nature being what it is - will ultimately 
> make it so that someone coming in from a high tech world to a lower tech 
> world - has the opportunity to make his money.  Why are western companies 
> fighting for access to Japan or China's markets?  Because there is a profit 
> to be made.  And the more profit there is to be made, the more people will 
> fight until the profit to be made is marginal (i.e. too many 
> competitors).  But if there are too many competitors?  Chances are, that 
> world has finally reached a high tech status on its own.
> 

Recent history, alas, is full of examples of countries that, on the verge of 
prosperity, instead self-destructed into anarchy.  The very forces that create 
prosperity can concentrate wealth or power into the hands of a very few. If 
those people or institutions make themselves targets of religious animosity, 
economic desperation or cultural contempt, their very wealth can make them the 
guests of honor in a revolutionary court.

And, of course, once the industrial infrastructure has been destroyed once, 
how many investors are going to risk capital in that area again?

douglas
 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 10:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas R Glatz)
Date: Tue Aug 27 09:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Starships: Melting ,or Unmelting?
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 27 Aug 2002 10:00:43 +1000."
 <20020827100043.A2592@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020827165621.B492F279DF@mail.travellercentral.com>

> Douglas R Glatz wrote:
> > However, I am a big proponent of the KISS field of thought. If you
> > have TL 14 sensors, then you probably can defeat TL 13
> > countermeasures.  However, if the other ship has TL 15
> > countermeasures, it's probably going to be able to defeat your
> > sensors
> 
> I'd be more inclined to believe that if Traveller had larger jumps
> between tech levels.  As it is, TTL 15 isn't really much different
> from TTL 12.  You could probably compress TL 12-15 into GURPS TL 10,
> and compress TTL 9-11 into GURPS TL 9.

I think it is harder and harder to predict specific advances as the TLs get 
further and further out - breaking them up by Jump Drive advances is as good 
as any marker.  Beyond that, we need to fill them ourselves.

> 
> That brings up the other part of the problem: everyone on this list
> seems to use different game systems.  If you like, you can think of RL
> physics as an underlying game system that more people can agree on :)
> 

You are right - there are 5 incarnations of Traveller out now, and everyone 
uses the one (or combination of them) that best fits their game and 
imagination.  I don't object to you trying to make RL physics fit the game, I 
just don't want RL physics to *define* the game.

> 
> > Otherwise, I really believe that the 'physics' of the game will get
> > hammered by RL technology advances, for example, computer size, as
> > defined by CT.
> 
> That's why I'm focussing on physics, not engineering.
> 

Forgive me for being obtuse, but are saying that the quantum computers that 
are being posited today were being predicted back in the 70's?  How about 
nanites or nano-tube construction?  Super-cavitation?  And isn't engineering 
ultimately physics made material?

My belief is that we (i.e. scientists working in the field, not ignorant 
grunts like me) are continuing to make progress in our collective 
understanding of physics, and perhaps even making a few new discoveries every 
year.  I've also heard of a few who are starting to chafe under Einstein's 
theories and are trying to poke holes in them - which, if true, will change a 
lot of the basic assumptions of physics, right?

If we tie Traveller to our imagination, we will succeed in making it current 
for the foreseeable future.  If we limit it to our understanding, it will be 
stale before the ink is dry on the next ruleset.  So give me my Handwavium and 
Unobtainium (and a half way reasonable way of explaining it) and let RL 
technology fall into the categories that we've already set up for it!  :)

douglas


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 11:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Tue Aug 27 10:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Knowing and doing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.0208271221450.8515-100000@ask.diku.dk>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0208271016450.217-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>

On Tue, 27 Aug 2002, Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> Tech uplifting is clearly possible. Equally clearly either no one wants to
> pay for uplifiting the TL 6 society or the TL 6 society does not want to
> be uplifted (maybe because they don't care for what it would cost them in
> the long run).

<scratches head>
The idea that it's been hundreds of years and a world is still at TL X is
based on what?  Looking at M0 data compared to CT data?
I've assumed that progress is probably slow - unless there's a real
monetary impetus for a megacorp or other group of people to uplift a
world, it'll be a gradual process that can go in fits and starts and
falter for all the reasons that have been mentioned (cultural reticence,
nothing valuable to trade except labor, no nearby high tech partners
etc.).  I haven't reviewed M0 data, but I'd have thought the worlds would
all have been regressed to appropriate TLs (though it's set in Core
right?) and some degree of progress is seen between 0 and 1100.
Is this not the case?

Rob


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 11:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Tue Aug 27 10:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] THe TML's Dirty Little Secret (was: Starships: Melting
 ,or Unmelting?) (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0208271052000.217-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>

On Tue, 27 Aug 2002, Paul Walker wrote:

> But I'm still here on the TML.  And Brian brought out
> the dirty little secret about why, at least for me.
> I'm sure there are some of you like me, so fess up so
> that I don't feel alone.

  It's not a secret for me :)   I've known since high school and our early
Traveller and AD&D, et al. adventures that my interest in so many subjects
was directly related to how they could make cool and/or realistics RPG
additions, rules, adventures, devices, plausible handwaves, etc.
  Even things like interior decorating that might easily bore me to tears
gets a "hmmm..." when I apply the "I wonder what I could learn from this
for the game" frame of mind. All kinds of history becomes incredibly
interesting, and even my father-in-law's books on structural engineering
and "Properties of Materials" make me feel like I've found gold. (And it
lets my wife watch HGTV or "Trading Spaces" without me making the faux pas
of falling asleep. :)  The only trade off is finding space for all the
books about these interesting subjects.

Rob



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 13:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Simon Brodie)
Date: Tue Aug 27 12:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] THe TML's Dirty Little Secret (was: Starships: Melting ,or Unmelting?)
References: <20020827152149.61387.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001a01c24e04$9c72cc40$106aff3e@bloodyhellfire>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Walker" <traveller_tv@yahoo.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: 27 August 2002 16:21 PM
Subject: [TML] THe TML's Dirty Little Secret (was: Starships: Melting ,or
Unmelting?)


 <snippety, snip>

> Occasionally a few tidbits from the TML will find its
> way into my game.  But for the most part, MTU and my
> Refs' TUs are pretty well defined as far as game
> mechanics and physics.

> So I can learn about physics,
> astrophysics, projectiles, blades (although that went
> a bit far), strategy, law, economics, military
> procedure, history, etc, etc, etc.

> Thanks to all the experts, I have learned more on the
> TML than I would have on my own over the same time
> period.  And here, it's fun.  Not as fun as a game,
> but fun none the less.
>
> Paul

Amen to that.  and let's not forget that the TML is (A LOT) more than a
group of individuals discussing a (forgive my trivialization here) game.
You only have too look at the effects that 9/11 and the passing on of the
General to see that we are a community.  And like all people who congregate
for a shared reason, we often slip away from the topic that brought us
together.

But it was that specific topic that caused us to have something in common in
the first place.  If it wasn't for traveller, how many of us would have had
any reason to talk to each other in RL?  Not very many I would surmise.  But
now we all know that if we go anywhere in the world near a TML-er there is
roof over our heads for the night and the chance of a game, and this is for
people we have never even met.  I would be hesitant to let some of the
people I DO know sleep in my house :-).

So whether we are here for the cut and thrust of debate, to impose our
'canon' interpretations on each other or merely to sit amongst our friends
and feel part of something special, we owe it all to 3 LBBs - pretty cool
huh?

Simon




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 14:07:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 27 13:07:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <20020827091705.26135.27801.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17jmbv-0007Ih-00@blount.mail.mindspring.net>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:

> The real question is, if it's all automatic and easy, why is there
> air/raft skill?  Doesn't that sort of imply that the operator has an
> impact on the craft, and that it requires a certain amount of skill to
> operate it?

Given the way computers work in Traveller, I'd assume that 
autopilots work great for simple tasks (and on a grav vehicle 
landing is going to be fairly simple).  However, they aren't as good 
as sapient pilots.  I'd assume that if you want to fly to the store you 
simply program it into the autopilot.  OTOH, if you want to fly down 
a cliff-side in high wind and rescue someone hanging on to a tree 
limb, chase someone in another air raft (or evade being chased), 
especially if you are also flying amidst closely packed skyscrapers 
at high speed, humans are a good bit better than machines.  

I'd allow anyone with Grav Vehicle 0 to perform any normal tasks 
with an air raft w/o rolling, since the autopilot covers those sorts of 
tasks.  Anything complex, fast-paced, or dangerous will need a 
skilled pilot.  It's a bit of a fudge, but one that makes at least a bit 
of sense.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com   




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 14:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Maksim-Smelchak)
Date: Tue Aug 27 13:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] 3 LBBs... ? Traveller.
In-Reply-To: <001a01c24e04$9c72cc40$106aff3e@bloodyhellfire>
Message-ID: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPMEFEEHAA.max200@lanset.com>

>>> We owe it all to 3 LBBs - pretty cool huh? - Simon >>>

What do you mean by three LBBs?

>>> You only have too look at the effects that 9/11 and the passing on of
the General to see that >>> we are a community. >>>

I do agree that the Traveller list is a community. This one stayed together
after 9-11. A terrain list I belonged to fell apart after 9-11 because some
of the more radical European members of the list got tired of hearing US
talk and venting about 9-11. It didn't bother me, US citizen or not.

> So I can learn about physics, astrophysics, projectiles, blades... >>>

I also enjoy hearing some of the scientific discussions. If we ever hit some
linguistic topics (my specialty), I'll contribute more.

Best regards,
Maksim-Smelchak.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Simon Brodie
Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 1:02 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] THe TML's Dirty Little Secret (was: Starships: Melting
,or Unmelting?)
 <snippety, snip>
> Occasionally a few tidbits from the TML will find its way into my game.
But for the most part, > MTU and my Refs' TUs are pretty well defined as far
as game mechanics and physics. >>>
> So I can learn about physics, astrophysics, projectiles, blades (although
that went a bit far),
> strategy, law, economics, military procedure, history, etc, etc, etc. >>>
> Thanks to all the experts, I have learned more on the TML than I would
have on my own over the > same time period. And here, it's fun. Not as fun
as a game, but fun none the less. >>>
> Paul

Amen to that.  and let's not forget that the TML is (A LOT) more than a
group of individuals discussing a (forgive my trivialization here) game. You
only have too look at the effects that 9/11 and the passing on of the
General to see that we are a community. And like all people who congregate
for a shared reason, we often slip away from the topic that brought us
together.

But it was that specific topic that caused us to have something in common in
the first place. If it wasn't for traveller, how many of us would have had
any reason to talk to each other in RL?  Not very many I would surmise. But
now we all know that if we go anywhere in the world near a TML-er there is
roof over our heads for the night and the chance of a game, and this is for
people we have never even met. I would be hesitant to let some of the people
I DO know sleep in my house :-).

So whether we are here for the cut and thrust of debate, to impose our
'canon' interpretations on each other or merely to sit amongst our friends
and feel part of something special, we owe it all to 3 LBBs - pretty cool
huh?

Simon.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 14:16:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 27 13:16:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Economics of Technology
In-Reply-To: <20020827190006.8585.97445.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17jmkH-00086B-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

Douglas R Glatz <douglasg@cesa.opbu.xerox.com> wrote:

> > 4) the man in the mean time, has figured out, that the cheaper work
> > force expense plus the expense of shipping the product per unit, is
> > *still* cheaper than manufacturing that same item on a higher tech
> > world.  So he ships his product to the higher tech world instead of
> > manufacturing it on the higher tech world.  An example of this in
> > today's society would be the electronics manufacturing in Asia...
> >
> 
> And then is subjected to repeated investigations of his 'sweatshop
> labor', 'inhumane working conditions' and a host of other subjective
> values as defined by the world receiving those goods.  I draw your
> attention to the garment industry, Nike, and almost any other
> corporation manufacturing in the Asia and selling in Europe or
> America.  (Not that some of those investigations *weren't* justified).

Unlikely, in our world the 3rd world sweat shops are all less than a 
day away by plane and an instant away by telephone or internet.  
In the TU, such places are 1 or more weeks away -  as a result, 
protesters, journalists, and similar folk are a lot further away.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 14:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas R Glatz)
Date: Tue Aug 27 13:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] 3 LBBs... ? Traveller.
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 27 Aug 2002 13:01:58 PDT."
 <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPMEFEEHAA.max200@lanset.com>
Message-ID: <200208272033.g7RKXfE11952@catenary.cesa.opbu.xerox.com>

LBB - Little Black Books.  The original form of Traveller.

douglas



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 14:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas R Glatz)
Date: Tue Aug 27 13:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Economics of Technology
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 27 Aug 2002 13:15:15 PDT."
 <E17jmkH-00086B-00@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <200208272044.g7RKi1E12157@catenary.cesa.opbu.xerox.com>

> > And then is subjected to repeated investigations of his 'sweatshop
> > labor', 'inhumane working conditions' and a host of other subjective
> > values as defined by the world receiving those goods.  I draw your
> > attention to the garment industry, Nike, and almost any other
> > corporation manufacturing in the Asia and selling in Europe or
> > America.  (Not that some of those investigations *weren't* justified).
> 
> Unlikely, in our world the 3rd world sweat shops are all less than a 
> day away by plane and an instant away by telephone or internet.  
> In the TU, such places are 1 or more weeks away -  as a result, 
> protesters, journalists, and similar folk are a lot further away.
> 
> -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com

While it is tempting to think that time/distance would affect protests - I'm 
not sure that is accurate.  I would suggest that if people have the leisure 
time to invest in activities not related to survival, a surplus of resources 
with which to support those activities, and access to both sources of news and 
a means to broadcast their activities - then we will continue to see activists 
involved in a wide range of social issues regardless of the travel time 
involved.  Historically, I would draw your attention to the underground 
railway of the pre-civil war (US) era, and perhaps the sufferagete movement of 
the late 1800's.  Both existed in an era of slow communication, but still had 
support from long distances away.

douglas


douglas




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 15:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Tue Aug 27 14:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Economics of Technology
In-Reply-To: <200208272044.g7RKi1E12157@catenary.cesa.opbu.xerox.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0208271405350.10791-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>

On Tue, 27 Aug 2002, Douglas R Glatz wrote:

> While it is tempting to think that time/distance would affect protests - I'm
> not sure that is accurate.  I would suggest that if people have the leisure
> time to invest in activities not related to survival, a surplus of resources
> with which to support those activities, and access to both sources of news and
> a means to broadcast their activities - then we will continue to see activists
> involved in a wide range of social issues regardless of the travel time
> involved.  Historically, I would draw your attention to the underground
> railway of the pre-civil war (US) era, and perhaps the sufferagete movement of
> the late 1800's.  Both existed in an era of slow communication, but still had
> support from long distances away.

Didn't someone make the supposition that the news media in the OTU is
mostly a house organ for the nobility (or something to that effect)?
In which case it might make it harder to drum up popular support for
activist issues.  Depends on the freedom of the journalists and media
IYTU I guess.

Rob


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 15:51:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas R Glatz)
Date: Tue Aug 27 14:51:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Economics of Technology
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 27 Aug 2002 14:07:07 PDT."
 <Pine.GSO.4.33.0208271405350.10791-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <200208272150.g7RLo8E13494@catenary.cesa.opbu.xerox.com>

> Didn't someone make the supposition that the news media in the OTU is
> mostly a house organ for the nobility (or something to that effect)?
> In which case it might make it harder to drum up popular support for
> activist issues.  Depends on the freedom of the journalists and media
> IYTU I guess.
> 
> Rob

That's an interesting thought - and to be honest I haven't considered it much. 
 Really it gets down to how much control over the flow of information the 
Imperium has - does the mail traveling by starship, especially 
privately-contracted mail carriers, get checked by the Imperial Intelligence 
services?  My gut reaction is no, or at least only very rarely.  How about 
passengers traveling to non-interdicted worlds?  I can see where they might be 
made persona non gratis on arrival (or find out that they are), but how widely 
would that information be distributed?

Since there is a fairly clear demarcation between the member planets and the 
Imperial Nobility, I would say that interference with planet-based news 
services would not be very common.  What freedoms the *planets* allow is 
another matter!  ;)  Ships traveling from planet to planet would carry news 
information, of course - but it would be random and sporadic.

With this line of thought in mind, I can see the basis for an independent news 
service that distributes news from local sources to points around the 
Subsectors (and possibly throughout the Sector) could exist.  Perhaps 
originally starting with agents that collect news from the local sources 
(Tri-D, newsfaxes, etc) and forward it a central desk for redistribution, and 
developing their own investigatory team on every planet in their areas.

And I can also see where the Baron or Count might want to have certain stories 
... UN-emphasized.  And how continued access to those areas by the news 
service could be jeopardized (or made more difficult) if cooperation was not 
forthcoming.

But I can also see where the Marquis or even the Duke might want to *know* 
what was actually going on in the more obscure regions that they are 
responsible for.

Interesting...interesting...

douglas



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 16:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ken Murphy)
Date: Tue Aug 27 15:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
Message-ID: <F197dqKINSOxKRARJSD0000daf7@hotmail.com>

   Richard Honeycutt's take on waste heat:

I remember in the book 'Sundiver', a laser was used to project the
>energy away from the ship.
>If this is really possible, then the energy radiated away could be by
>laser and aimed into deep space away from
>habitable worlds or likely enemy locations.

   Heck, for *that* matter [cue lightbulb going off above my head]the 
energy-removal laser beam could be turned pretty handily toward barbaquing 
one's enemies :)
  -Ken-


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 17:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug 27 16:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020827075651.01902050@192.168.0.1>
References: <20020826144030.A32334@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020826081859.0250deb8@192.168.0.1> <20020827082128.A2374@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020826225524.02a42008@192.168.0.1> <20020827134306.B2762@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020826235457.02a42008@192.168.0.1> <20020827142948.A2997@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020827004617.01d2da38@192.168.0.1> <20020827202429.B3631@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020827075651.01902050@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020828093055.A5293@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> You're getting the power to drive the contragrav from the steam
> engine?  Is the electrical generation implied?

Actually, GURPS Vehicles doesn't care what form the power comes in, so
it's a bit of game-system abstraction.  I'm assuming that the
contragrav unit is built to accept mechanical power.  Maybe it
consists of a spinning disk made of a high tech pseudo-Cavorite, and
would run off a gearshaft just fine without modification?

Without knowing the internal details, it's a bit of a leap to assume
it needs electrical power natively.  Maybe it would really need plasma
conduits, which replaced primitive electrical wiring more than a
thousand years ago?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 18:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Tue Aug 27 17:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Economics of Technology
References: <20020827190006.8585.97445.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <005001c24e27$7d597160$345d8690@computer>

> From: Douglas R Glatz
> Except that he is going to have to import the technicians to run and
> maintain it (at least at the start) and pay them at the level they *know*
> they should be paid at, plus bonuses for dragging them out into the
> outback.

See, for example, Papua New Guinea, or many other third world countries.

> Until such time as the planet's government thinks that the local know-how
> is sufficient to work the plant - and then the owner is given a one-way
> ticket off the planet and *perhaps* enough time to catch the starship.  I
> draw your attention to the nationalization of oil in the Middle East in
> the 60's and 70's.

This actually seems to be rare. Usually the local elites are thoroughly
bought and paid for.

> And then is subjected to repeated investigations of his 'sweatshop labor',
> 'inhumane working conditions' and a host of other subjective values as
> defined by the world receiving those goods.  I draw your attention to the
> garment industry, Nike, and almost any other corporation manufacturing in
> the Asia and selling in Europe or America.  (Not that some of those
> investigations *weren't* justified).

I've met a few Indonesian union leaders who have put a lot of time into
organising Nike workers and the like. There are _really_ good reasons for
kicking up a stink about all this stuff.

It's also worth noticing the relationships that develop between the
corporations and the local thugs (government or "merely criminal") in these
situations. Often the local police forces and armies are little more than
corporate mercenaries.

> Recent history, alas, is full of examples of countries that, on the verge
> of prosperity, instead self-destructed into anarchy.  The very forces that
> create prosperity can concentrate wealth or power into the hands of a very
> few. If those people or institutions make themselves targets of religious
> animosity, economic desperation or cultural contempt, their very wealth
> can make them the guests of honor in a revolutionary court.

Usually deservedly.

We should also once again point out that a lot of foreign "investment" is
just plain straightout plunder. This is particularly obvious in a fair bit
of Africa. We can also note the harmful political impact of such
interference in the "Banana Republics" of Latin America. The most recent
example of this was the US government openly cheering on the coup attempt
against Chavez in Venezuela. Their full behind the scenes role won't be able
to be fully documented for a few decades yet...

In other words, terms like "trade" and "investment" and all that conceal a
whole lot of phenomena. While they are usually presented as good things,
they are also cover for what was once called "imperialism".

OBTRAV: Megacorporations and mercenaries, and, well, most of the game,
really.

I've recently been mucking about with a character whose last name is
Schunamann. He's a member of the family that founded SuSAG.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 18:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug 27 17:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <E17jhi8-0001BU-0U@anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net>
References: <20020827143304.2160.74121.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <E17jhi8-0001BU-0U@anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net>
Message-ID: <20020828102635.C5293@freeman.little-possums.net>

rob@glisten.demon.co.uk wrote:
> What about a water tank? What little memory I have left is failing,
> but I seem to recall that steam engines (locomotives) would go
> through a roughly similar amount of water as they would coal - steam
> locomotives carrying 2500-ish gallons of water in the tender as well
> as coal, for example.

Yes, it probably does realistically need a water tank as well.  I just
did a first pass through the vehicle design sequence, and may well
have missed something.  It's also possible that the game designers
overlooked it.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 18:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Tue Aug 27 17:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] 3 LBBs... ? Traveller.
In-Reply-To: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPMEFEEHAA.max200@lanset.com>
Message-ID: <20020828003653.34788.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Maksim-Smelchak <max200@lanset.com> wrote:
> I also enjoy hearing some of the scientific
> discussions. If we ever hit some
> linguistic topics (my specialty), I'll contribute
> more.

Feel free to start us off.  I was playing around a
while back with trying to flesh out some of the
Traveller languages.  So, what are your thoughts. 
Given the history of the races, how would the
languages have developed.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 18:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug 27 17:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Starships: Melting ,or Unmelting?
In-Reply-To: <20020827165621.B492F279DF@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <20020827100043.A2592@freeman.little-possums.net> <20020827165621.B492F279DF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020828104334.D5293@freeman.little-possums.net>

Douglas R Glatz wrote:
> Forgive me for being obtuse, but are saying that the quantum
> computers that are being posited today were being predicted back in
> the 70's?

No, but quantum computers don't extend the theoretical limits on
computation power.  They're just an engineering advance.


>  How about nanites or nano-tube construction?

Predicted, and again an engineering concern rather than a physical
limitation.


>  Super-cavitation?

Engineering again.


>  And isn't engineering ultimately physics made material?

Yes.  However, engineering limitations are usually *much* more
stringent than physics limitations.  For example, the engineering
limits on material strength are still at least ten orders of magnitude
below the physical limits.  The current engineering limits on
computation are at least *forty* orders of magnitude short of the
physical limits.


> I've also heard of a few who are starting to chafe under Einstein's
> theories and are trying to poke holes in them - which, if true, will
> change a lot of the basic assumptions of physics, right?

Maybe, maybe not.


> So give me my Handwavium and Unobtainium (and a half way reasonable
> way of explaining it)

It's the halfway reasonableness that I'm talking about.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 18:55:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Tue Aug 27 17:55:03 2002
Subject: [TML] blackhawk bitmap recieved
Message-ID: <001f01c24e2d$9b12f180$3ed5f6d1@customer>

Received and saved. Thanks John.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 19:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Tue Aug 27 18:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Economics of Technology
In-Reply-To: <20020827165116.E960E279DF@mail.travellercentral.com>
References: <Your message of "Tue, 27 Aug 2002 09:27:32 EDT." <5.0.2.1.2.20020827085656.00a49e50@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020827210056.00a4fc60@mail.buffnet.net>

At 09:37 AM 08/27/2002 -0700, you wrote:

> > Wanna see how a man with a higher tech base can get wealthy quick?
> >
> > 1) he buys power generation equipment and operates it.  He charges the
> > locals for the benefit of having power in their homes.  His high tech 
> power
> > generator is modest by normal standards, but is cheaper to run than the 
> low
> > tech power generation systems on the low tech world.  He does this because
> > he earns income on the very thing he needs for his factories... power.
> >
>
>Except that he is going to have to import the technicians to run and maintain
>it (at least at the start) and pay them at the level they *know* they should
>be paid at, plus bonuses for dragging them out into the outback.  They, in
>turn, will be communicating their contempt of the 'ignorant savages' in their
>dealings with the natives (or at the very least, rubbing their own
>'sophistication' in).  For a historical example, I draw your attention to the
>period when India was an English colony.


I draw your attention to the fact that fusion power plants in Traveller can 
be run and maintained by a ship's engineer  <wink>



> > 2) he buys cheap luxuries or necessities for the work force he will
> > employ.  A simple "clinic" will dispense better medical treatment to the
> > locals than what the "local aristocrats" provide.  Even if he operates it
> > at cost - he's still making out like a bandit because he is keeping his
> > cheap labor force healthy and he's generating good will.
> >
>Until such time as the planet's government thinks that the local know-how is
>sufficient to work the plant - and then the owner is given a one-way ticket
>off the planet and *perhaps* enough time to catch the starship.  I draw your
>attention to the nationalization of oil in the Middle East in the 60's and
>70's.


I suspect that in the time of the imperium, nationalization laws are a 
major no no - after all, the imperium protects trade ;)


> > 3) due to the monopoly on higher tech gadgets and/or knowledge, our 
> budding
> > Rockefeller or Gates, monopolizes as much as he can with the local
> > populace.  He insinuates himself with the local society such that he
> > provides the rich and middle class of the world, with things they don't
> > provide on their own.
> >
> > 4) the man in the mean time, has figured out, that the cheaper work force
> > expense plus the expense of shipping the product per unit, is *still*
> > cheaper than manufacturing that same item on a higher tech world.  So he
> > ships his product to the higher tech world instead of manufacturing it on
> > the higher tech world.  An example of this in today's society would be the
> > electronics manufacturing in Asia...
> >
>
>And then is subjected to repeated investigations of his 'sweatshop labor',
>'inhumane working conditions' and a host of other subjective values as 
>defined
>by the world receiving those goods.  I draw your attention to the garment
>industry, Nike, and almost any other corporation manufacturing in the Asia 
>and
>selling in Europe or America.  (Not that some of those investigations
>*weren't* justified).

Somehow? I get the feeling that in an era of megacorporations - that these 
"complaints" are likely to produce nothing much except higher bribes for 
the shop owner.



> >
> > 5) now his workers are earning more than the locals are, but less than 
> what
> > the "high tech world" workers are.  They can afford some higher tech
> > luxuries with their money.  He imports goods that he knows the locals will
> > want.  He opens stores.  He opens service providers and so forth.  He even
> > runs a local school that uplifts the poor's education levels to something
> > that is worth having.  Why?  Because by now, the "businessman" realizes
> > there is more money to be had by diversifying.  He realizes that the 
> locals
> > want luxuries.  For a modest investment of finding a how to book about the
> > lifestyle of the high tech world some 200 years ago - he learns how to
> > manufacture primitive TV's or radios etc...  He doesn't even have to do 
> the
> > R&D if he doesn't want to.  Or?  He uses modern luxury goods produced
> > elsewhere in the Imperium.
> >
> > In short - human greed and human nature being what it is - will ultimately
> > make it so that someone coming in from a high tech world to a lower tech
> > world - has the opportunity to make his money.  Why are western companies
> > fighting for access to Japan or China's markets?  Because there is a 
> profit
> > to be made.  And the more profit there is to be made, the more people will
> > fight until the profit to be made is marginal (i.e. too many
> > competitors).  But if there are too many competitors?  Chances are, that
> > world has finally reached a high tech status on its own.
> >
>
>Recent history, alas, is full of examples of countries that, on the verge of
>prosperity, instead self-destructed into anarchy.  The very forces that 
>create
>prosperity can concentrate wealth or power into the hands of a very few. If
>those people or institutions make themselves targets of religious animosity,
>economic desperation or cultural contempt, their very wealth can make them 
>the
>guests of honor in a revolutionary court.
>
>And, of course, once the industrial infrastructure has been destroyed once,
>how many investors are going to risk capital in that area again?
>
>douglas
>


Therein lies an adventure seed.  Imagine a factory or so that has the high 
tech guards (mercenaries) guarding the instalations.  Of course, someone 
with the kind of economic power that I spoke of throughout all this - also 
is likely to wield political power as well.  Just some thoughts 
for   people to muse upon.


               Hal




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 19:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Tue Aug 27 18:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Upgrading LoTech
In-Reply-To: <20020827154244.82433.qmail@web12302.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020827143304.2160.74121.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020827212055.00a4c890@mail.buffnet.net>

>
>All of the below will work nicely until you get the whiny protestors, most 
>of whom live nicely
>priveledged lives complaining about globalization.  Or you get the local 
>kleptocrats complaining
>about "rivers of poverty" or "modern apartheid" as an excuse to 
>nationalize you or guilt you into
>sending them aid to divert to their bank accounts on Ruie.

Hello Folks,
   I think perhaps that it should be mentioned that while the analogy of 
modern day Earth helps point the way for some things, certain other things 
should be examined in the environment of Traveller's unique set up.  To 
wit: these are not nations we are talking about, but distinct worlds.  The 
*only* people who would complain about some competitor undercutting their 
prices are other competitors on the same world.  If a world attempts to set 
in motion practices that protect its trade from other worlds - the Imperium 
steps in saying "We are an over government that protects trade - so stop 
whining and get on with it or we will have to send some Marines to make you 
see reason".

To some extent, I suspect that the Imperium leaves its hands off the local 
government and attempts not to be "too" intrusive.  On the other hand, I 
can see it happening where a local business man steps up near some imperial 
toady and hands him a gift asking for a minor consideration of a "penalty" 
applied to a world's government for infringing on trade rights...  Ahhh, 
don't you love politics and economics? <eg>

               Hal


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 19:22:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thom Jones-Low)
Date: Tue Aug 27 18:22:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
References: <20020827143304.2160.74121.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D6C27D9.936BB156@together.net>

> Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 20:24:29 +1000
> From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> Mark Urbin wrote:
> > I'm gonna have to to have one of these things in the back woods of
> > Garda-Vilis somewhere.  Can you please post the stats?
> 
> I've just done a rough job, I'm afraid.  Here's what I've got:
> 

	Here's a full GURPS Vehicles output version, fully checked (I think):
GURPS steam engines assume the water tank is included with the engine,
and is filled when the coal bunker is (bad assumption, but there it is). 
TL5 Steam Aircar

Subassemblies: Vehicle +4, Body +4, Skids +1. 

P&P: 53-kW early steam engine (short term access), 29 cf coal bunker, 29
cf coal, 35-kW aerial propeller, 18,000 lbs. lift contragrav generator. 

Occupancy: two normal crew stations, 150-cf cargo hold. 
Armor:         F            RL           B            T           
U            
Body           3/5          3/5          3/5          3/5         
3/5          

Statistics: 
Size: [LxWxH] 25.2 x 6.31 x 3.15  Payload: 4,850 lbs.  Lwt: 17,982 lbs.

Volume: 501 cf Maint: 200 Hrs (0.479 man-hrs./day) Price: $2,494 

HT: 7 HP: 275 [Body], 37 [2x Skids]. 
Air Performance: Motive Thrust 87.5 lbs., Stall Speed 0 mph, Top Speed
39.7 mph, Terminal Velocity 0 mph, Glide Speed 0 mph, Glide Ratio 0:1,
aAccel 0.097 mph/s, aMR 0.5, aSR 1, aDecel 2 mph/s.

Design Notes: 
TL5 Light Frame Very Cheap Materials [Body].
TL5 Light Frame Very Cheap Materials [Skids].

TL5 DR 5 Cheap Wood [Body].
Payload Cost: $29
Vehicle Features: Mechanical Controls, No streamlining, Cheaply Made.
Skids: Quantity 2.
Volume: 478 cf [Body], 23.9 cf [Skids].
Area: 367 sf [Body], 49.8 sf [Skids].
Total Calculations: 288

-- 
    Thomas Jones-Low
    tjoneslo@together.net


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 19:30:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Tue Aug 27 18:30:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Starships: Melting ,or Unmelting?
In-Reply-To: <20020827165621.B492F279DF@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000001c24e32$890431c0$6501a8c0@Darla>

Well, yes and no.

Scientific understanding of physics continues to advance, but that
doesn't mean we tear down the entire edifice every time a new discovery
is announced.  For example, Newtonian mechanics (F=ma) continues to be
the foundation of engineering despite the fact that Einstein, et al
allowed us to understand that F=ma is an approximation good only when
solving problems involving velocities that are very small relative to
the speed of light.

We have to have a faster-than-light travel handwave to have an
interstellar science fiction game universe at all, and the Traveller
jump drive both solves that problem and gives an interesting set of
conditions as first posited by Marc Miller in the original game.  

Other than that very necessary handwave, I prefer to keep things as
real-science grounded as possible to support the necessary suspension of
disbelief when we play an RPG in the first place.  

TWB


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 19:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Derek Wildstar)
Date: Tue Aug 27 18:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Economics of Technology
In-Reply-To: <200208272150.g7RLo8E13494@catenary.cesa.opbu.xerox.com>
References: <Your message of "Tue, 27 Aug 2002 14:07:07 PDT." <Pine.GSO.4.33.0208271405350.10791-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020827212040.02592380@mail.qrc.com>

At 05:50 PM 8/27/2002, Douglas R Glatz wrote:
>I can see the basis for an independent news service that distributes news 
>from local sources to points around the Subsectors (and possibly 
>throughout the Sector) could exist.

I believe in the OTU canon, this is known as the Travellers' Aid Society's 
Travellers' News Service.

IMTU, I've assumed that TNS is as close as the Imperium comes to an 
"independent" large-scale news service.  A large fraction of the TAS 
operating revenues come from fees paid by non-members (individuals, small 
and large companies, news services, governments) for access to the TAS news 
and library data.  This gives the TAS a measure of independence from any 
given faction - although not complete.  TAS is ultimately run for and by 
it's members.  Of course, the TAS membership tends to have a high 
percentage of the wealthy and powerful (as well as a significant fraction 
of successful adventurers).  The net result is that it tends towards 
"neutral" reporting - and members occasionally get "confidential" news 
summaries that aren't released on the public feeds.

IMTU, most other large-scale news outlets are either controlled by a world 
government, a noble house, or a Megacorporation.  If you think 
Microsoft/NBC, AOL/Time-Warner, and Disney/ABC are bad, just consider the 
media holdings of organizations the size of some of the Vilani 
megacorporations.


   --- Derek Wildstar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "Searching for a distant star, heading off to Iscandar!"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 19:53:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue Aug 27 18:53:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Starships: Melting ,or Unmelting?
In-Reply-To: <20020827084027.E2374@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <F96eHTgzW2hSsKAfHci00012017@hotmail.com> <20020827084027.E2374@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <df9omuk66e5mqrptg80dau6qie0u3kpiqk@4ax.com>

On Tue, 27 Aug 2002 08:40:27 +1000, Timothy Little
<tim@freeman.little-possums.net> wrote:

>Ken Murphy wrote:
>>    The easiest answer to why things are the way they are in the
>>future is: *They just are*
>
>Unfortunately that "answer" is no answer at all.
>
>Some of us want more detail than has been published, and I for one
>want any such detail to introduce as few lumps of unobtainium as
>reasonably possible.
>
>It also makes for a rather pointless discussion:
>
> "You can't see my ship's waste heat because it has a handwavium spray
>coating of HeatAway"
>
> "Well, my ship has Penetron sensors, and can see the waste heat
>inside the ship before it reaches the coating"

When this matter last came up, one of the least objectionable
suggestions was that a starship had some means of dumping heat outside
of conventional space.  Whether this is into Jump space or some other
Handwavium space, isn't necessary to state.  I've incorporated this
into a function of the power plant, and a delicate one at that.  Thus,
if power plant is damaged in combat or is malfunctioning, it starts
"leaking" heat into the ship which will have to be disposed of by
conventional means.

Suddenly, damage to a power plant becomes obvious when the ship's
external radiators kick into high.

As a real physics highly efficient radiator, I've always been partial
to metallic dust circulated through a loop where first the dust is
heated via inductance, then the hot dust is expelled from a pipe and
aimed across free space to a capture pipe.  While crossing free space,
the hot dust is madly radiating the heat away from an incredibly large
surface area compared to the mass involved.  The cooled dust is then
captured and magnetically channeled back through the system again.
See the awkward ASCII illustration below (set your sensors on
monospace):

    ____                                                 _______
   / *  *  *> *> *> *> *> *> *> *> *> *> *> *> *> *> *> *  *    \
   | * |                                                  \  *   |
   | * |                    Exterior                      |      |
   | * |                                                  |  *   |
   | * |                                                  |      |
=3D=3D=3D| * |=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D--- HULL - HULL =
--=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D|  *   =
|=3D=3D=3D=3D
   | * |                                                  |      |
   | * |                    Interior                      |  *   |
   | * |                                                  |      |
   | * |         ______________________________           |  *   |
   | * |________|  *     *   *   *   *   *     |__________|      |
   \  *  *   *   *    * Inductance Heater   *   *   *   *  *     |
    \___________   *     *   *   *   *   *      ________________/
                |_____________________________|

Of course, the above is more suitable for immobile facilities like a
space station because accelerations would play hell which the capture
system.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 19:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Phill Webb)
Date: Tue Aug 27 18:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Economics of Technology
References: <200208272044.g7RKi1E12157@catenary.cesa.opbu.xerox.com>
Message-ID: <3D6C2C4C.9050907@yarranet.net.au>

Douglas R Glatz wrote:

>>>
>>Unlikely, in our world the 3rd world sweat shops are all less than a 
>>day away by plane and an instant away by telephone or internet.  
>>In the TU, such places are 1 or more weeks away -  as a result, 
>>protesters, journalists, and similar folk are a lot further away.
>>
>>-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
>>
> 
> While it is tempting to think that time/distance would affect protests - I'm 
> not sure that is accurate.  I would suggest that if people have the leisure 
> time to invest in activities not related to survival, a surplus of resources 
> with which to support those activities, and access to both sources of news and 
> a means to broadcast their activities - then we will continue to see activists 
> involved in a wide range of social issues regardless of the travel time 
> involved.  Historically, I would draw your attention to the underground 
> railway of the pre-civil war (US) era, and perhaps the sufferagete movement of 
> the late 1800's.  Both existed in an era of slow communication, but still had 
> support from long distances away.


Don't forget that canon already has the Pan-Galactic Friends of life 
protesting LSP's overharvesting of the local whale equivalent in CT 
Adventure 9 - Nomads of the World Ocean.

Phill
-- 
Read my FudgeT Notes http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/traveller/


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 20:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Tue Aug 27 19:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Gimme STEAM! (was: Prevalence of grav vehicles)
Message-ID: <F139c6DoDrVzWF3grVS00000712@hotmail.com>

From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>

     "Yes, it probably does realistically need a water tank as well.  I just 
did a first pass through the vehicle design sequence, and may well
have missed something.  It's also possible that the game designers
overlooked it."


Mr. Little,

     They most certainly did!  But the extra bit of realism would add very 
little to a normal session.  If we were running a sooper-dooper, archaic 
gearhead campaign maybe...
     Larsen E. Whipsnade, Steam Crank First Grade, at your service sir!
     Early locomotives had to take on water as often as they took on fuel, 
this was especially common in North America where cord wood was used far 
more extensively than Europe.  Coal and various waste oils gave you more 
BTUs per lb, this allowed the engine's tender to set aside more volume for 
water for a given amount of fuel.
     While reciprocating pumps driven by the loco's motion were used early 
on to feed water to the boilers, ejectors eventually took over the job.  
With no moving parts, they lasted much longer.  Both of these methods 
required a head of steam to be built up before feed water could be supplied 
to the boiler; the pumps meant the loco must be in motion, the ejectors 
simply used steam bled off the drum.
     Condensers didn't come into general service, and then almost only for 
marine and stationary use, until the late 1800's.  Condensers allowed you to 
recycle the boiler feed water.  Prior to that, most engines simply used the 
water once and the water used was of poor quality.  Early ocean vessels 
actually tried to use seawater.  River and lake boats simply pumped fresh 
water aboard.  Both methods played merry hell with boilers and pistons.
     The marine triple expansion steam engine, which through it's excellent 
fuel economy finally drove the clippers from the oceans, required a better 
grade of water to operate.  Condensers that could recycle that feed water 
became a must.
     Now back to your puffer-belly air/raft!
     Just after WW2, several western railroads in the US experimented with 
condenser cars.  These were little more than a large air-cooled radiator 
with pumping equipment.  The condenser cars were pushed ahead of the engine. 
  While the system worked, diesels were already putting the steam locos in 
the scrap heap.
     A condenser for your air/raft would definitely be noticeable.  Several 
tight zig-zags of copper tubing, with tin or copper fins attached, arranged 
in vertical sheet or block might do the trick.  When your air/raft is 
stationary a fan may be needed to move air across the tubing.  Having a 
condenser and being streamlined may be mutually exclusive.
     As an aside, steam pressure in your engine need not be very high, in 
fact keeping it low will let you use a smaller condenser.  ACW ironclads 
normally ran their plants in tens of PSIG and still moved rather well.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 20:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Tue Aug 27 19:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Starships: Melting ,or Unmelting?
In-Reply-To: <000001c24e32$890431c0$6501a8c0@Darla>
References: <000001c24e32$890431c0$6501a8c0@Darla>
Message-ID: <m3r8gjiuy3.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Thomas Barnes" <twb3@charter.net> writes:
> 
> Scientific understanding of physics continues to advance, but that
> doesn't mean we tear down the entire edifice every time a new
> discovery is announced.

Until that edifice becomes unwieldy and unuseful, like those which
preceded it.  The Galenic system survived for more than a thousand
years, rather longer than our own; it's the height of hubris, I think,
to imagine that ours is _truth_.  It's merely an approximation
thereof, albeit the most perfect approximation thus far.

I fully expect that at some point--ten years from now or ten centuries
hence--our system will be found inadequate, and new paradigms and ways
of looking at the universe will be made necessary.  Heck, I'm not
entirely certain that that is not the case _now_.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
When you disarm your subjects you offend them by showing that either
from cowardliness or lack of faith, you distrust them; and either
conclusion will induce them to hate you.
      --Niccolo Machiavelli, The Prince

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 20:27:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Aug 27 19:27:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <20020828093055.A5293@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020827075651.01902050@192.168.0.1>
 <20020826144030.A32334@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020826081859.0250deb8@192.168.0.1>
 <20020827082128.A2374@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020826225524.02a42008@192.168.0.1>
 <20020827134306.B2762@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020826235457.02a42008@192.168.0.1>
 <20020827142948.A2997@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020827004617.01d2da38@192.168.0.1>
 <20020827202429.B3631@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020827075651.01902050@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020827222235.025a2eb8@192.168.0.1>

At 09:30 AM 8/28/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
> > You're getting the power to drive the contragrav from the steam
> > engine?  Is the electrical generation implied?
>Actually, GURPS Vehicles doesn't care what form the power comes in, so
>it's a bit of game-system abstraction.  I'm assuming that the
>contragrav unit is built to accept mechanical power.

I'm sorry, but that is a stretch for me.  With cheap fusion in the 
Imperium, I have trouble seeing a TL 9+ C/G
unit designed to be easily hooked up to a windmill.

>   Maybe it
>consists of a spinning disk made of a high tech pseudo-Cavorite,

Ah...that explains the seismic activity in France. :-)

>and
>would run off a gearshaft just fine without modification?
>Without knowing the internal details, it's a bit of a leap to assume
>it needs electrical power natively.  Maybe it would really need plasma
>conduits, which replaced primitive electrical wiring more than a
>thousand years ago?

Hmmm...I think it would be easier to get electrical power from a steam 
engine than a Plasma stream...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 20:31:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Tue Aug 27 19:31:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Alternatives to terran military
Message-ID: <20020828023019.27722.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>

I was wondering if anyone has ever had a military
force in trav that didn't follow the terran mold (ie
Troopers, NCO's, Officers). OR didn't use the terran
ranks or unit designations. For a world I am working
on at the moment (Steampunk, hell yeah!) most military
forces are merc units that are hired by city-states. I
wanted a Roman feel to it so I declared the largest
unit to be a Legion (about a 1000 men), the sub units
are as follows).

Duo (Two men)
Quattro (Two duos. eqv to fire team)
Tri-quattro (Three quattro's. Eqv to squad)
Dozen (Three Tri-quattro. Eqv to Platoon)
Tri-dozen (Three dozen's. Eqv to Company)
Century(Three Tri-dozen. Eqv to battalion)
Tri-century (Three century. Eqv to regiment)

Does any one have any suggestions on how I could
Improve this. Are there any Latin words I could use to
make it seem more authentic (I won't the words to have
a number feel, not a "we called them that cause the
romans did")

Thanks,
James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://digital.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Digital How To
- Get the best out of your PC!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 20:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug 27 19:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Starships: Melting ,or Unmelting?
In-Reply-To: <df9omuk66e5mqrptg80dau6qie0u3kpiqk@4ax.com>
References: <F96eHTgzW2hSsKAfHci00012017@hotmail.com> <20020827084027.E2374@freeman.little-possums.net> <df9omuk66e5mqrptg80dau6qie0u3kpiqk@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020828124153.A5469@freeman.little-possums.net>

JR Holmes wrote:
> While crossing free space, the hot dust is madly radiating the heat
> away from an incredibly large surface area compared to the mass
> involved.

You'll find that this is no better than a flat black-body radiator,
and almost certainly worse.

For example: if your dust is dense, then most of the energy gets
radiated into other bits of dust.  If it's sparse, there isn't much
surface area anyway.

As I said earlier in this thread -- increasing surface area by
"crinkling" a smaller region doesn't work.  It doesn't matter whether
you try to do that by putting radiator fins in it or breaking it up
into dust.

The thermodynamic argument is simple: consider a black body surface
that encloses the region, silvered on the outside, at the same or
slightly higher temperature than the dust.  If the dust radiates more
net power than the surface, then the surface will heat up while the
dust cools down.  This violates the second law of thermodynamics.

Hence the dust radiates no more than a black body enclosing it at the
same temperature.  In practice it would radiate less, since the dust
at the collection end will be cooler.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 20:50:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 27 19:50:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Starships: Melting ,or Unmelting?
Message-ID: <d3.10c8a2ac.2a9d9427@aol.com>

 >> That's why we have referees and game masters.  They decide who has
 >> what, and then the game can continue.
 >
 >Yes, and a as referee I'll use real-world physics in preference to
 >making stuff up on the fly.

That's fine, as long as you can keep everything internally consistent.  Can 
you?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 20:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Tue Aug 27 19:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Prevalence of grav vehicles
References: <E17jVbt-0006fB-00@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3D6B505D.7000702@usisp.com>

sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:

>
>
>I'm guessing that the old ideas of factories, traffic patterns and 
>similar stuff being controlled by a single central computer came to 
>be because people back in the 50s and 60s could not imagine 
>computers being so tiny or ever-present.
>
    As I recall, shady shennanagins with computers really took off when 
computers became networked.
Without networks, if you wrote a virus or something, you could only 
infect your own machine.
I agree that networks are fault tolerant, but aren't the individual 
machines within that network
more vulnerable to attack from many more sources? ( not a computer whiz 
:-[  )



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 20:57:24 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Tue Aug 27 19:57:24 2002
Subject: Subject: Re: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
References: <ML-2.3.1030135501.9084.ajackson@ping> <3D686092.7020201@usisp.com> <3D6A8E6B.6080606@iii.com>
Message-ID: <3D6B5140.5090701@usisp.com>

Anthony Jackson wrote:

>
> Since a black globe generator, as described, turns high entropy energy 
> into low entropy energy (it turns heat into useful power; at least, 
> that's the implication of the fact that it can freeze solid matter 
> touching it), it won't be too difficult to simply switch the globe off 
> every so often and dump the excess power in some highly directional 
> manner. 

    Whereupon you must release your energy into space anyways. Because 
you'd release the energy while the globe is turned off, you'd look like
a brighter, intermittant flasher. Sorta along the lines of a pulse width 
modulated output.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 21:01:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Tue Aug 27 20:01:06 2002
Subject: Subject: Re: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
References: <ML-2.3.1030135501.9084.ajackson@ping> <3D686092.7020201@usisp.com> <20020826083426.C31692@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3D6C3B0F.6010006@usisp.com>

Timothy Little wrote:

>richard honeycutt wrote:
>
>>    Not for too long though....how long will it take for a black
>>globe to top off its capacitors when absorbing all the ship's
>>emitted radiation minus background?
>>
>
>Supposing a globe of 100 metre diameter, with Earthlike incident
>sunlight, then it will absorb 40 GJ per hour.  Unfortunately I don't
>know what the capacity of black globe capacitors are.  I would suppose
>them to be as least as good as GURPS TL12 rechargeable power cells,
>which would mean that they should be able to last on the order of a
>week.
>
>Still, being unable to maneuver while englobed is not at all good.  If
>you were seen entering the system, then your course is highly
>predictable.
>
    According to FF&S1, the black globe capacitors are the same as homopolar
generators...the idea of tiny flywheels hold megajoules inside a ship 
disturbs me.
In any case, they can hold 1MJ per .035 cubic meters. That is the same 
as 28.57 MJ
per cubic meter. Also, 35% of jump drive volume is comprised of these 
capacitors
and can be used for this purpose in addition to more capacitors being 
added. Once
they reach capacity, then woosh!
    Maneuver should not be a big problem if globe is flickered. I 
imagine that acceleration
while flickering is uncomfortable because of the large amount of 
vibration. It would
probably be hard on the machinery also.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 21:04:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 27 20:04:49 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
Message-ID: <OF94790B2E.86214922-ONCA256C23.000EFFFD-CA256C23.000F40C1@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Todd replied to John:
>> I'm guessing automated landing software and hardware for grav
>> vehicles will be very common and fairly simple (radar linked to
>> thrust and lift) and may well be included on such vehicles if all of
>> the electronics are TL 9+.
>
>The real question is, if it's all automatic and easy, why is there 
air/raft
>skill?  Doesn't that sort of imply that the operator has an impact on the
>craft, and that it requires a certain amount of skill to operate it?

Sure, that's for when you over-ride the automatics. Or push the vehicle 
past those "Warning!" and "Caution! - Pull Up! Pull Up!" messages.

;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 21:09:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue Aug 27 20:09:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : Autodocs are starting to appear
In-Reply-To: <20020820230903.3f40ca26.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20020827.194642.4Y9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail (a week ago) you write:

> On Tue, 20 Aug 2002 11:58:10 +1000
> Robert O'Connor <robocon@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
>
>> TTL 12. Progress in robotics and imaging/diagnostic tech are the main
>> requirements.
>> 
>> Non-portable versions could be available a tech-level earlier.
>
> Sounds reasonable. And it means that experimental and highly unsafe
> units might be tested in shady conditions at TL-10, which is good enough
> for my purposes...
>
> I really hope none of the people who will play this campaign are
> watching my smile right now...  ;-)
>
> Nothing like the joys of medical experimentation on human subjects to
> make both PCs and players uneasy. Great for horror/thriller adventures.

It occurs to me to wonder what happens if a couple of badly injured
folks drag themselves to the *one* autodoc, and *both* crawl inside.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 21:14:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 27 20:14:15 2002
Subject: [TML] wet navies
Message-ID: <OFC889F0AE.6068A648-ONCA256C23.000F78D4-CA256C23.00106942@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Richard asked:
>>>    I just looked up super cavitation. Torpedoes in excess 300 kts.
>>>Explosion on Kursk probably caused by test 'sqvall'
>>
>>yes indeed. There are possibilities for airborne platforms using
>>supercavitating gun projectiles to kill mines, underwater guns for 
torpedo
>>defense, and 300kph fighter-subs. Fun stuff.
>
>With such cool stuff, why doesn't anyone seem to care for wet navies. 
>CT/MT had carreers for it.

Actually, there's quite a bit available on wet navies. There's two 
Challenge articles on the topic, and a wet navy scenario set on Aramanx 
that's a real beauty.

>How do canon starship weapons function under water? Or would 
>supercavitating torps be better.

Question was first answered for CT in an old JTAS magazine - I *think* it 
was JTAS #22's "Seastrike", by the UK's fabled Marcus L. Rowland. The two Challenge articles cover it as well, this time for MT.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 21:17:40 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Tue Aug 27 20:17:40 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: OT,but sort of funny
References: <47.22143de4.2a9a6c42@aol.com> <3D699708.4000007@usisp.com> <20020827192857.A3631@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3D6C3EDB.8000606@usisp.com>

>
>
>
>It's actually true for lots of other shapes.
>
>The circle does have other advantages, such as being easy to roll into
>position, and not having to worry about aligning it in the correct
>orientation.
>
>Of course, it should also be pointed out that despite the advantages
>of the circular shape, not all manhole covers are round :)
>
    As a NJDOT employee and manhole guy, I know not all manholes are 
round, but heaven
help you if you drop a rectangular one down the hole. You'd need lotsa 
help to lift it
out again. I have never seen any manholes except round or rectangular, 
so I never really
considered any other shapes.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 21:21:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug 27 20:21:23 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020827222235.025a2eb8@192.168.0.1>
References: <20020827082128.A2374@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020826225524.02a42008@192.168.0.1> <20020827134306.B2762@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020826235457.02a42008@192.168.0.1> <20020827142948.A2997@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020827004617.01d2da38@192.168.0.1> <20020827202429.B3631@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020827075651.01902050@192.168.0.1> <20020828093055.A5293@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020827222235.025a2eb8@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020828130605.B5469@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> I'm sorry, but that is a stretch for me.  With cheap fusion in the
> Imperium, I have trouble seeing a TL 9+ C/G unit designed to be
> easily hooked up to a windmill.

Who says that the fusion power plant output is in the form of
electrical current, or that CG units require electrical current.
You're just assuming it.

Furthermore, you're assuming that all contragrav units are the same.
In particular, it is highly likely that small contragrav units will
not be designed with fusion power in mind, since fusion power plants
are far too expensive and bulky for such small-scale operations.  It
is even more certain that contragrav units designed for export to
low-tech worlds will not assume fusion power.

In short, I agree that there is a case for considering power
conversion separately from the CG unit itself, but it's not an
open-and-shut one, and an answer requires some unavailable knowledge
of the internal workings of the CG unit.


> Hmmm...I think it would be easier to get electrical power from a
> steam engine than a Plasma stream...

Yes, it would.  The point is that we don't know what form the native
power requirement for a contragrav unit takes.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 21:25:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 27 20:25:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Steampunk Air Rafts
Message-ID: <OFBA6AA92A.F83FE318-ONCA256C23.0010F6ED-CA256C23.0011514D@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Mark replied to Tod who replied to Matt:
>>> Absolutely outstanding!!!!  Steampunk meets Dulinor :)
>>> I think it would be a hoot to have the players land on some TL-5 back 
water
>>> and see one of those
>>> contraptions fly by.  What a great idea. [snip] Now that
>>> would be truly cool for the local Cleopatra to lounge by in...
>>
>>How else does one get around on Barsoom?
>
>You beat me to it.  I was about to say we're getting ready for a 
Space:1889 
>crossover here...

Of course - what else is "liftwood" but a low-tech version of anti-grav 
modules?

Loren - as one of the main writers of "Space: 1889", are you up for 
comments?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 21:28:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 27 20:28:50 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Knowing and doing
Message-ID: <48.10a7ad3b.2a9d9836@aol.com>

 >>Even if trade were miniscule, there are still problems.  Trade does not
 >>consist only of goods and services, it also consists of ideas.  If the low
 >>tech world in question is at all dynamic and forward looking it wouldn't 
neet
 >>vast fleets bringing trade goods, it would only need a few hundred 
professors
 >>and industrialists to jump start its progress.
 >
 >Then maybe those worlds are not at dynamic and forward looking.

I find it hard to envision a human society, so lacking in ability and 
adaptability and wealth accumulation that it cannot advance after a few 
hundred years, as being capable of surviving at all.  Not even China is that 
hidebound.

 >Or maybe
 >it is a little more complicated than that. Who pays the professors? What
 >makes you think the industrialists don't have better investment
 >opportunities closer to home?

Depends on what you mean by "have better investment opportunities".  If 1000 
entrepreneurs are competing for 500 opportunities where they live, then many 
of them will have to look elsewhere.  In the southern U.S. many companies 
dismantle their operations and move a few miles across the border to Mexico 
where workers and the costs of doing business (such as taxes, environmental 
regulations, OSHA, workmen's compensation, and other such) are much cheaper.  
There are lots of reasons.

 >>A tech 6 world would represent an enormous profit opportunity for a tech
 >>9 businessman who sees a society capable of advancing in certain
 >>directions and knows how to direct that advancement.
 >
 >Tech uplifting is clearly possible. Equally clearly either no one wants to
 >pay for uplifiting the TL 6 society or the TL 6 society does not want to
 >be uplifted (maybe because they don't care for what it would cost them in
 >the long run).

It's more likely that what is going on is the UWP generator is simply putting 
out willy-nilly results, and we are left to rationalize the chance roll of 
the die.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 21:32:22 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug 27 20:32:22 2002
Subject: [TML] Starships: Melting ,or Unmelting?
In-Reply-To: <d3.10c8a2ac.2a9d9427@aol.com>
References: <d3.10c8a2ac.2a9d9427@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020828130953.C5469@freeman.little-possums.net>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> That's fine, as long as you can keep everything internally
> consistent.  Can you?

Better than I can by making stuff up out of thin air, for sure.  In
practice, internal consistency of stuff I have derived via physics is
a negligible problem compared to internal consistency problems I have
experienced with published game material.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 21:35:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Tue Aug 27 20:35:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Alternatives to terran military
In-Reply-To: <20020828023019.27722.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020827222407.00b78950@minn.net>

At 12:30 PM 8/28/2002 +1000, James Ramsay wrote:
>I was wondering if anyone has ever had a military
>force in trav that didn't follow the terran mold (ie
>Troopers, NCO's, Officers). OR didn't use the terran
>ranks or unit designations. 

Try reading THE TACTICS OF MISTAKE by Gordon R. Dickson. He uses a
non-standard TO&E and tactical system for his Dorsai mercenaries. There are
also some mercenary ticket's that you may wish to swip...er...borrow from it.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 21:39:25 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Aug 27 20:39:25 2002
Subject: [TML] Economics of Technology
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020827210056.00a4fc60@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <B9919095.6B2EA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/27/02 6:15 PM, Hal at hal@buffnet.net wrote:

>=20
>=20
> I suspect that in the time of the imperium, nationalization laws are a
> major no no - after all, the imperium protects trade ;)

Only interstellar trade.  Something about the space between the stars.
wouldn't nationalization be a purely local matter.  Unless the new
government cut off trade with the outside.  Why should the Imperium care
who's running things as long as the goods flow?

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 21:44:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 27 20:44:13 2002
Subject: [TML] actual fun
Message-ID: <8.2b8f8acd.2a9d9e31@aol.com>

 >I'm (on the one hand) desperate about plausibility. On the other, it's got
 >to be fun.

I think you hit the nail on the head here.

There seem to be three approaches to Traveller.  The first is REALISM.  
Physics and math are dominant, and exist in tension with the RPG.  The second 
approach is PLAUSIBILITY.  The desire to play an RPG dominates, and people 
will accept all sorts of plausible assertions with an understanding that in 
the future things will exist that we don't comprehend now, while 
simultaneously they will not accept obvious absurdities ("you can breath in a 
vaccuum").  The third approach is HANDWAVING.  This is the assertionist 
approach.  "Gravitics exist.  Fusion power plants exist."  Etc.

The realists do not seem to distinguish between plausibility and handwaving.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 21:47:54 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Tue Aug 27 20:47:54 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <20020828130605.B5469@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020827222235.025a2eb8@192.168.0.1>
 <20020827082128.A2374@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020826225524.02a42008@192.168.0.1>
 <20020827134306.B2762@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020826235457.02a42008@192.168.0.1>
 <20020827142948.A2997@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020827004617.01d2da38@192.168.0.1>
 <20020827202429.B3631@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020827075651.01902050@192.168.0.1>
 <20020828093055.A5293@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020827222235.025a2eb8@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020827233228.01b99cf0@192.168.0.1>

At 01:06 PM 8/28/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
> > I'm sorry, but that is a stretch for me.  With cheap fusion in the
> > Imperium, I have trouble seeing a TL 9+ C/G unit designed to be
> > easily hooked up to a windmill.
>Who says that the fusion power plant output is in the form of
>electrical current, or that CG units require electrical current.
>You're just assuming it.

It's a fair one.  Better than say, a C/G drive with a hole labeled "insert 
crank here"

I'm just saying it's an easier handwave to stick a smallish generator on 
the steam engine than to get most players to except a Contra/Grav unit that 
has to be cranked in order to work.

Switching subjects, did you write the strip mime filter that the TML uses?



-------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Let me put it this way:
today is going to be a learning experience.
-------------------------------------------------------




From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 21:51:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Aug 27 20:51:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <OF94790B2E.86214922-ONCA256C23.000EFFFD-CA256C23.000F40C1@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <B991935A.6B2ED%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

>> The real question is, if it's all automatic and easy, why is there
>> air/raft
>> skill?  Doesn't that sort of imply that the operator has an impact on th=
e
>> craft, and that it requires a certain amount of skill to operate it?
>=20
> Sure, that's for when you over-ride the automatics. Or push the vehicle
> past those "Warning!" and "Caution! - Pull Up! Pull Up!" messages.

Wouldn't this require a special grav vehicle?  We were speaking about grav
vehicles for the masses, one that would be at least as safe as present day
automobiles.  If it's simple to go past the automatics, lots of people will
be doing it, including those who shouldn't.  That sort of destroys the
concept of the 'safe' grav vehicle.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 21:55:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug 27 20:55:21 2002
Subject: Subject: Re: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <3D6B5140.5090701@usisp.com>
References: <ML-2.3.1030135501.9084.ajackson@ping> <3D686092.7020201@usisp.com> <3D6A8E6B.6080606@iii.com> <3D6B5140.5090701@usisp.com>
Message-ID: <20020828132603.D5469@freeman.little-possums.net>

richard honeycutt wrote:
>     Whereupon you must release your energy into space
> anyways. Because you'd release the energy while the globe is turned
> off, you'd look like a brighter, intermittant flasher. Sorta along
> the lines of a pulse width modulated output.

The difference is that with a black globe, you can radiate heat into
it while it's on, which accumulates in the form of low-entropy energy
in your capacitors.  Then using that energy you can fire a big burst
of laser pulses in some extremely precise direction, missing all
sensors (while the globe is off, obviously).

So what if your lasers aren't 100% efficient?  They still generate
less waste heat than you started with.  Theoretically you could keep
the hull temperature as low as you like, indefinitely, while still
radiating your waste heat invisibly.  Of course, you don't really need
to radiate it away -- just switch off the power plant instead, and run
your ship on recycled power.

This is the sort of thing that becomes possible when you allow
violations of the second law of thermodynamics.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 22:00:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 27 21:00:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Starships: Melting ,or Unmelting?
Message-ID: <9f.2c585dfa.2a9da333@aol.com>

 >Of course, the above is more suitable for immobile facilities like a
 >space station because accelerations would play hell which the capture
 >system.

Not if you have gravitics pull the stream along with the ships.  After all, 
aren't gravitics pulling all the crew along?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 22:04:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 27 21:04:12 2002
Subject: Pedal-powered AG? (was Re: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles)
Message-ID: <6f.2cc54344.2a9da361@aol.com>

>>Actually, GURPS Vehicles doesn't care what form the power comes in, so
>>it's a bit of game-system abstraction.  I'm assuming that the
>>contragrav unit is built to accept mechanical power.
>
>I'm sorry, but that is a stretch for me.  With cheap fusion in the 
>Imperium, I have trouble seeing a TL 9+ C/G
>unit designed to be easily hooked up to a windmill.

Not on the mass market, certainly, but you're going to find hobbyists of all 
stripes in the 3I, and at least one of them will have made this modification, 
if only as a variation of the "Man-Powered Flight" thing...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 22:07:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Tue Aug 27 21:07:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: OT,but sort of funny
In-Reply-To: <3D6C3EDB.8000606@usisp.com>
References: <47.22143de4.2a9a6c42@aol.com>
 <3D699708.4000007@usisp.com>
 <20020827192857.A3631@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020827222837.00abe100@minn.net>

At 11:09 PM 8/27/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>    As a NJDOT employee and manhole guy, I know not all manholes are 
>round, but heaven
>help you if you drop a rectangular one down the hole. You'd need lotsa 
>help to lift it
>out again. I have never seen any manholes except round or rectangular, 
>so I never really
>considered any other shapes.

How about a two piece hexagaonal?


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 22:11:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug 27 21:11:48 2002
Subject: Subject: Re: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <3D6C3B0F.6010006@usisp.com>
References: <ML-2.3.1030135501.9084.ajackson@ping> <3D686092.7020201@usisp.com> <20020826083426.C31692@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D6C3B0F.6010006@usisp.com>
Message-ID: <20020828134026.E5469@freeman.little-possums.net>

richard honeycutt wrote:
> In any case, they can hold 1MJ per .035 cubic meters. That is the
> same as 28.57 MJ per cubic meter.

That's a *lot* less than I thought, about a factor of 1000 less than
GURPS TL 12 power cells.  In fact, it's about a factor of 10 less than
standard batteries today.


>     Maneuver should not be a big problem if globe is flickered.

If the globe is flickered, then you're not near-invisible to sensors
anymore.  (Better than without the globe, but nowhere near as good as
leaving it on continuously)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 22:16:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 27 21:16:04 2002
Subject: [TML] deckplans -- 200 ton merchant transport vessel
Message-ID: <120.152d2fea.2a9da56c@aol.com>

A really great merchant transport vessel.

http://members.aol.com/exog/myhomepage/mcg2.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 22:19:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Tue Aug 27 21:19:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Starships: Melting ,or Unmelting?
In-Reply-To: <20020828104334.D5293@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20020827100043.A2592@freeman.little-possums.net> <20020827165621.B492F279DF@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020828104334.D5293@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <cbbomu44ln3q4pcisqe536kqjlc6nfrri1@4ax.com>

On Wed, 28 Aug 2002 10:43:34 +1000, Timothy Little
<tim@freeman.little-possums.net> wrote:

>Douglas R Glatz wrote:
>> Forgive me for being obtuse, but are saying that the quantum
>> computers that are being posited today were being predicted back in
>> the 70's?
>
>No, but quantum computers don't extend the theoretical limits on
>computation power.  They're just an engineering advance.

Sorry Tim, but quantum computing is a whole new way of doing things.
This allows the simultaneous testing of all possible solutions, both
correct and incorrect, and arriving at the correct solution in a
single step.

=46or instance, in the field of encryption, with present algorithms and
key sizes, I've seen brute force cracking times measured in gigayears
for millions computers a million times as powerful as today.  Present
quantum computers are insufficient to attack present key sizes, but
with the present rate of advancement, they are looking at a matter of
years before a quantum computer will be built capable of solving the
problem in minutes by testing the entire keyspace simultaneously.

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 22:23:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 27 21:23:27 2002
Subject: [TML] Economics of Technology
In-Reply-To: <B9919095.6B2EA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20020827210056.00a4fc60@mail.buffnet.net>
 <B9919095.6B2EA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <4913.64.8.3.28.1030507747.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

> on 8/27/02 6:15 PM, Hal at hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I suspect that in the time of the imperium, nationalization laws are a
>> major no no - after all, the imperium protects trade ;)
>
> Only interstellar trade.  Something about the space between the stars.
> wouldn't nationalization be a purely local matter.  Unless the new
> government cut off trade with the outside.  Why should the Imperium
> care who's running things as long as the goods flow?

Um Tod,
  The underlying concept here is that the person who is investing in a low
  tech environment *is* an imperial citizen.  Such a person *would* be
  protected by imperial laws as opposed to local laws.  If it was a local
  businessman, then all bets are off.  But it won't be a local businessman
  because the postulate here is that we are asking why a High tech
  individual wants to even bother with low tech societies.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 22:27:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug 27 21:27:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: OT,but sort of funny
In-Reply-To: <3D6C3EDB.8000606@usisp.com>
References: <47.22143de4.2a9a6c42@aol.com> <3D699708.4000007@usisp.com> <20020827192857.A3631@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D6C3EDB.8000606@usisp.com>
Message-ID: <20020828134233.F5469@freeman.little-possums.net>

richard honeycutt wrote:
> I have never seen any manholes except round or rectangular, so I
> never really considered any other shapes.

Just me being picky -- I doubt any manhole cover would actually have
any of the other constant-width shapes.  Circles are a lot easier.


- Tim


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 22:31:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Tue Aug 27 21:31:14 2002
Subject: Subject: Re: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <20020828134026.E5469@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <ML-2.3.1030135501.9084.ajackson@ping> <3D686092.7020201@usisp.com> <20020826083426.C31692@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D6C3B0F.6010006@usisp.com> <20020828134026.E5469@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <1030508676.3d6c508434da2@www.paradise.net.nz>

Quoting Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>:

> richard honeycutt wrote:
> > In any case, they can hold 1MJ per .035 cubic meters. That is the
> > same as 28.57 MJ per cubic meter.
> 
> That's a *lot* less than I thought, about a factor of 1000 less than
> GURPS TL 12 power cells. In fact, it's about a factor of 10 less than
> standard batteries today.

It's also enormously less than a standars FF&S1 battery (10800MJ per m^3 for a 
1-hour discharge battery). FF&S1 makes a distinction between instant discharge 
HPGs and capacitors and 'slow discharge' batteries (some of which can discharge 
their entire charge in 0.36s IIRC).

-- 
Rupert Boleyn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 22:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Tue Aug 27 21:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Economics of Technology
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20020827210056.00a4fc60@mail.buffnet.net>        <B9919095.6B2EA%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <4913.64.8.3.28.1030507747.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <002701c24e4e$81e9e440$0701a8c0@cordite.com>

> Um Tod,
>   The underlying concept here is that the person who is investing in a low
>   tech environment *is* an imperial citizen.  Such a person *would* be
>   protected by imperial laws as opposed to local laws.  If it was a local
>   businessman, then all bets are off.  But it won't be a local businessman
>   because the postulate here is that we are asking why a High tech
>   individual wants to even bother with low tech societies.

I was assuming an 'Imperial' citizen.  At least in the sense that they were
a citizen of another world.  Why should \the imperium have a compelling
interest just becasue one person moves from one planet to another.  Why
would the local be any less 'Imperial Citizens' just because they didn't
travel?  Are you suggesting that just because one person make a trip by
starship that the Imperium suddenly imbues them with special status?

Tod


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 22:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Tue Aug 27 21:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Economics of Technology
In-Reply-To: <002701c24e4e$81e9e440$0701a8c0@cordite.com>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20020827210056.00a4fc60@mail.buffnet.net>
 <B9919095.6B2EA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <4913.64.8.3.28.1030507747.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
 <002701c24e4e$81e9e440$0701a8c0@cordite.com>
Message-ID: <1961.64.8.3.28.1030510489.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

>> Um Tod,
>>   The underlying concept here is that the person who is investing in a
>>   low tech environment *is* an imperial citizen.  Such a person
>>   *would* be protected by imperial laws as opposed to local laws.  If
>>   it was a local businessman, then all bets are off.  But it won't be
>>   a local businessman because the postulate here is that we are asking
>>   why a High tech individual wants to even bother with low tech
>>   societies.
>
> I was assuming an 'Imperial' citizen.  At least in the sense that they
> were a citizen of another world.  Why should \the imperium have a
> compelling interest just becasue one person moves from one planet to
> another.  Why would the local be any less 'Imperial Citizens' just
> because they didn't travel?  Are you suggesting that just because one
> person make a trip by starship that the Imperium suddenly imbues them
> with special status?

What I am suggesting is that any capital taken from one world to another,
and then suddenly appropriated by a local government without having paid
fair value for it - will encourage a lot of worlds to take just the route
you suggested - naturalization.  Once that happens however, the business
and economic climate chills big time.  The only way such a climate can be
thawed out is either a measured response against naturalization, or an
official response in a trade treaty in the first place.  Any government
that finds itself naturalizing assets of an interstellar organization will
find itself at the sharp end of a hired mercenary unit that enforces
"contracts".

In short - the "theft" of property by a government is something that the
Imperium cannot sanction.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 23:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Aug 27 22:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Alternatives to terran military
In-Reply-To: <20020828023019.27722.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020827221012.009f1780@mindspring.com>

At 12:30 PM 8/28/02 +1000, you wrote:
>I was wondering if anyone has ever had a military
>force in trav that didn't follow the terran mold (ie
>Troopers, NCO's, Officers). OR didn't use the terran
>ranks or unit designations. For a world I am working
>on at the moment (Steampunk, hell yeah!) most military
>forces are merc units that are hired by city-states. I
>wanted a Roman feel to it so I declared the largest
>unit to be a Legion (about a 1000 men), the sub units
>are as follows).

<snip>

I can't help with the Latin, but would point out that the Romans had a very 
strict hierarchy of ranks that clearly set officers above the NCOs of the 
day.  Much of Western military tradition comes down from the Roman Empire.

The reasons for the strict adherence to ranks and such is control.  One 
person has to be responsible, and those under him have to be ready to obey 
orders without hesitation.  There is a reason why officers are forbidden to 
socialize to closely with the enlisted men, it breaks down that wall.

The most recent example I can recall of a an attempt at a rankless army was 
the Red Army after Trotsky had been purged.  They tried to reduce everyone 
to "leaders" and "fighters" - which worked really well when the Wehrmacht 
came over the border.  The "reforms were quickly scrapped.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry   gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Cry "CHEEBLE!" and let slip the hamsters of war!



From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 23:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Tue Aug 27 22:38:02 2002
Subject: Pedal-powered AG? (was Re: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles)
In-Reply-To: <6f.2cc54344.2a9da361@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPMEMCEOAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Using FFS1 try fitting a TL9 or TL10 fusion power plant into a 2dt Air/Raft.
At these tech levels at least air/rafts are powered by something other than
fusion. Hand cranking CG modules may be a bit much (woe to you if your
slaves get tired!) I assume that they need electrical input. So you TL2
flying galley is going to need higher tach power sources for the CG modules
(In FFS1 CG does not produce thrust) Perhaps some relic solar cells instead
of sails on the galley? I like the hand cranked air screw for propulsion
those.

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of GypsyComet@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, 28 August 2002 11:54 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Pedal-powered AG? (was Re: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles)


>>Actually, GURPS Vehicles doesn't care what form the power comes in, so
>>it's a bit of game-system abstraction.  I'm assuming that the
>>contragrav unit is built to accept mechanical power.
>
>I'm sorry, but that is a stretch for me.  With cheap fusion in the
>Imperium, I have trouble seeing a TL 9+ C/G
>unit designed to be easily hooked up to a windmill.

Not on the mass market, certainly, but you're going to find hobbyists of all
stripes in the 3I, and at least one of them will have made this
modification,
if only as a variation of the "Man-Powered Flight" thing...

GC
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Tue Aug 27 23:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Tue Aug 27 22:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <3D6C27D9.936BB156@together.net>
References: <20020827143304.2160.74121.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020827222505.009fd750@mindspring.com>

At 09:31 PM 8/27/02 -0400, you wrote:
>         Here's a full GURPS Vehicles output version, fully checked (I think):
>GURPS steam engines assume the water tank is included with the engine,
>and is filled when the coal bunker is (bad assumption, but there it is).
>TL5 Steam Aircar

(The sound of one hard drive whirring...)


--

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 00:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug 27 23:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Starships: Melting ,or Unmelting?
In-Reply-To: <cbbomu44ln3q4pcisqe536kqjlc6nfrri1@4ax.com>
References: <20020827100043.A2592@freeman.little-possums.net> <20020827165621.B492F279DF@mail.travellercentral.com> <20020828104334.D5293@freeman.little-possums.net> <cbbomu44ln3q4pcisqe536kqjlc6nfrri1@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20020828160750.G5469@freeman.little-possums.net>

JR Holmes wrote:
> Sorry Tim, but quantum computing is a whole new way of doing things.

That's what I'm saying: from an engineering point of view, quantum
computing is a whole new way of doing things.  However, it still obeys
pre-existing physical limits on how much computation can be done.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 00:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug 27 23:21:02 2002
Subject: Subject: Re: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <1030508676.3d6c508434da2@www.paradise.net.nz>
References: <ML-2.3.1030135501.9084.ajackson@ping> <3D686092.7020201@usisp.com> <20020826083426.C31692@freeman.little-possums.net> <3D6C3B0F.6010006@usisp.com> <20020828134026.E5469@freeman.little-possums.net> <1030508676.3d6c508434da2@www.paradise.net.nz>
Message-ID: <20020828162007.H5469@freeman.little-possums.net>

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> Quoting Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>:
> > That's a *lot* less than I thought, about a factor of 1000 less than
> > GURPS TL 12 power cells.

Oops, misplaced a factor of 2: it's really about 4000 times less than
GURPS TL 12 power cells.  Their energy density is about 100 GJ/m^3,
and twice that for non-rechargeable cells.


> FF&S1 makes a distinction between instant discharge HPGs and
> capacitors and 'slow discharge' batteries (some of which can
> discharge their entire charge in 0.36s IIRC).

In GURPS, the high-tech power cells are apparently suitable for
directly powering pulsed lasers.  Either that, or the laser assembly
equipment is assumed to include the necessary capacitors or similar
devices.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 00:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Tue Aug 27 23:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] actual fun
References: <8.2b8f8acd.2a9d9e31@aol.com>
Message-ID: <004701c24e61$6a7bfce0$380ebd50@martinjd>

> The realists do not seem to distinguish between plausibility and
handwaving.

I agree. I'm looking to get "consistent, plausible, playable fun"; My
players and I will accept various handwaves and don't-look-too-closes in the
name of a good game. Too much implausibiity and the bubble bursts.

Where's the line? Dunno. I guesss that's why we all have our own TU...


Martin J Dougherty
Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
Dogsbody-General-to-the-Masses
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 00:59:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Tue Aug 27 23:59:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020827233228.01b99cf0@192.168.0.1>
References: <20020827134306.B2762@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020826235457.02a42008@192.168.0.1> <20020827142948.A2997@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020827004617.01d2da38@192.168.0.1> <20020827202429.B3631@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020827075651.01902050@192.168.0.1> <20020828093055.A5293@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020827222235.025a2eb8@192.168.0.1> <20020828130605.B5469@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020827233228.01b99cf0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020828165510.I5469@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> It's a fair one.  Better than say, a C/G drive with a hole labeled
> "insert crank here"

Again, you seem to be assuming a nice neat consumer package that some
weird people retrofit for mechanical power.  I'm assuming that the
contragravity unit is assembled with the specific purpose in mind of
powering it mechanically.

Much the same way you can have a diesel-powered refrigerator rather
than one that plugs into a wall.  It's not because you buy a
refrigerator with a hole labelled "insert crankshaft here" and attach
it to a diesel engine.


> Switching subjects, did you write the strip mime filter that the TML
> uses?

No, I just modified it to let non-MIME posts through.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 02:12:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Wed Aug 28 01:12:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Alternatives to terran military
In-Reply-To: <20020828023019.27722.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <009401c24f09$ab2e8d90$1001a8c0@sauron>

James Ramsay wrote :
> I was wondering if anyone has ever had a military
> force in trav that didn't follow the terran mold (ie
> Troopers, NCO's, Officers). OR didn't use the terran
> ranks or unit designations. For a world I am working
> on at the moment (Steampunk, hell yeah!) most military
> forces are merc units that are hired by city-states. I
> wanted a Roman feel to it so I declared the largest
> unit to be a Legion (about a 1000 men), the sub units
> are as follows).

Presuming your looking to compare against actual Latin :

> Duo (Two men)

Duo hominus
You could also use the term "duplex", latin for "double" or "two-fold"

> Quattro (Two duos. eqv to fire team)

Latin for four is Quattuor not Quattro.

Could try a combo of "duoduplex"
Which would probably get shortened to "duodup"

> Tri-quattro (Three quattro's. Eqv to squad)

This should be Ter-quattor, tri does not mean three in Latin, that's
Greek.

However three fours _is_ twelve whch is a ....

> Dozen (Three Tri-quattro. Eqv to Platoon)

A dozen is 12 men, which is a large squad or three fireteams
Latin for 12 is Duodecim.

If what you meant here is three twelves that's 36, which is what you
describe next :

> Tri-dozen (Three dozen's. Eqv to Company)

Again, Terduodecim would be closer.

A tri-dozen is 36 men. That's coser to a platoon than a company.

> Century(Three Tri-dozen. Eqv to battalion)

Centuria

And three tri-dozen is 108 men, which is closer to a company.
It's also closer tio the real size of a Centuria

Next step, for your battalion equivalent , is a Cohor

> Tri-century (Three century. Eqv to regiment)

Tercenturia

The regiment equivalent would be a Legio however, two levels up from
Centuria

> Does any one have any suggestions on how I could
> Improve this. Are there any Latin words I could use to
> make it seem more authentic (I won't the words to have
> a number feel, not a "we called them that cause the
> romans did")

For late republic Romans, a Legio (not legion, that's english) consisted
of 10 Cohortes, each of which had 480 men, except for the senior Cohors
(singular of Cohortes) which had 800 men, giving a Legio a strength of
around 5120. This was "book strength" so numbers naturally varied.

The Legio was commanded by a Legatus Legionus (who was a senator, and
not neccessarily militarily knowledgeable. In your mercenary example
this position could be filled by the "business manager" or "owner". The
Legatus Legionus was assisted by 6 Tribuni, who were also senators
usually being groomed to command their own Legio, acting basicaly as
"staff officers"

Each Cohors consisted of 6 Centuriae, commanded by Centurio and assisted
by his Optio.
The Cohors as a whole was commanded by the senior Centurio, who
delegated command of his Centurio to his Optio.

Each pair of Centuriae was grouped to form a Manipulus, but it's likely
this was an administrative grouping and probably was never used
tactically.

The senior Cohors had no Manipuli, instead having five double-strength
Centuria.
The commander of the Senior Cohor was known as the Primus Pilus (First
Spear)
Where the Legatus was not very military-oriented, the Primus Pilus could
effectively be the military commander of the Legio

Each Centuria was made up of 10 Contubernia, with amaximum of eight men
per unit including their leader, a Decanus .

The Legio had integral artillery, each Legio having a catapult, and each
Centuria having a ballista.

At this time the Legio had no integral cavalry. By Caesar's time a Legio
had 4 Turmae of 30 cavalry each commanded by a Decurio

If you want a whole pile of other roman military words, and the
organization of later Roman units, including auxilliries, I suggest you
look out for a copy of "The Armies and Enemies of IMperial Rome" by Phil
Barker, published by the UK's "Wargames Research Group" responsible for
the "De Bellis Multitudinus" wargame rules among others.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 03:50:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Aug 28 02:50:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <3D6B505D.7000702@usisp.com>
References: <E17jVbt-0006fB-00@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>
 <3D6B505D.7000702@usisp.com>
Message-ID: <m3znv7gvom.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

richard honeycutt <richard@usisp.com> writes:
>
> > I'm guessing that the old ideas of factories, traffic patterns and
> > similar stuff being controlled by a single central computer came
> > to be because people back in the 50s and 60s could not imagine
> > computers being so tiny or ever-present.
>
> As I recall, shady shennanagins with computers really took off when
> computers became networked.

When insecure OSes were networked, I'd argue.  Note that Unix, despite
its virtues, has been insecure for years, but has finally had most of
the holes spackled closed.  Windows isn't even beginning to get there,
although I daresay that Microsoft are attempting to work on it.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgement that
something else is more important than fear.'

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 04:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Wed Aug 28 03:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : Autodocs are starting to appear
In-Reply-To: <20020827.194642.4Y9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <20020820230903.3f40ca26.jenry023@student.liu.se>
 <20020827.194642.4Y9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Message-ID: <20020828115755.47009852.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Tue, 27 Aug 2002 19:46:42 -0800
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:

> It occurs to me to wonder what happens if a couple of badly injured
> folks drag themselves to the *one* autodoc, and *both* crawl inside.

*snicker*

"Do you think I made a mistake, splitting his brain between the two of
them?"

That's really evil... thanks for the idea  :-)

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 05:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Aug 28 04:00:03 2002
Subject: Pedal-powered AG? (was Re: [TML] Prevalence of grav
 vehicles)
In-Reply-To: <6f.2cc54344.2a9da361@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020828065159.02214eb0@192.168.0.1>

At 11:54 PM 8/27/2002 -0400, GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:
> >>Actually, GURPS Vehicles doesn't care what form the power comes in, so
> >>it's a bit of game-system abstraction.  I'm assuming that the
> >>contragrav unit is built to accept mechanical power.
> >I'm sorry, but that is a stretch for me.  With cheap fusion in the
> >Imperium, I have trouble seeing a TL 9+ C/G
> >unit designed to be easily hooked up to a windmill.
>Not on the mass market, certainly, but you're going to find hobbyists of all
>stripes in the 3I, and at least one of them will have made this modification,
>if only as a variation of the "Man-Powered Flight" thing...

The topic isn't TL C hobbyists, but introducing ContraGrav, and other 
higher tech items, to low tech societies.

Your standard LBB air/raft, is stated to have a nearly unlimited range, 
only requiring a hit from the ship's power once a week.
Somehow I don't think that's a big flywheel.

I've seen TNE air/rafts, build using FF&S, that have 1 MW fusion plants.
<http://www.urbin.net/EWW/RPG/SV/TRAV/GH/air-raft.html>



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 05:10:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Aug 28 04:10:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <20020828165510.I5469@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020827233228.01b99cf0@192.168.0.1>
 <20020827134306.B2762@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020826235457.02a42008@192.168.0.1>
 <20020827142948.A2997@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020827004617.01d2da38@192.168.0.1>
 <20020827202429.B3631@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020827075651.01902050@192.168.0.1>
 <20020828093055.A5293@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020827222235.025a2eb8@192.168.0.1>
 <20020828130605.B5469@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020827233228.01b99cf0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020828070243.0224ce20@192.168.0.1>

At 04:55 PM 8/28/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
> > It's a fair one.  Better than say, a C/G drive with a hole labeled
> > "insert crank here"
>Again, you seem to be assuming a nice neat consumer package that some
>weird people retrofit for mechanical power.  I'm assuming that the
>contragravity unit is assembled with the specific purpose in mind of
>powering it mechanically.

Fine, I'm just saying that I'm not buying that.
Electrical power is just too handy to power too many items.
My personal take is that it's more feasible to have a smaller, high 
efficiency generator.
That way, your steam engine can power the lights and espresso maker as well 
as the C/G drive.
Obviously your mileage may vary.


> > Switching subjects, did you write the strip mime filter that the TML
> > uses?
>
>No, I just modified it to let non-MIME posts through.

Hmmm...Ok. Could you shead some light on why it strips out text/plain 
messages that use this header field

Content-Type: text/plain ; boundary="----=_Part_7734_1186448.1030129283276"

instead of:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1


Yes, I know it doesn't match RFC 822, 4095, or a half dozen others I read 
yesterday.

I've looked at the raw messages, and they are plain ascii.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 05:14:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Aug 28 04:14:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Alternatives to terran military
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020827221012.009f1780@mindspring.com>
References: <20020828023019.27722.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3D6D5835.16952.1C1050@localhost>

On 27 Aug 2002 at 22:16, Douglas Berry wrote:

> I can't help with the Latin, but would point out that the Romans had
> a very strict hierarchy of ranks that clearly set officers above the
> NCOs of the day.  Much of Western military tradition comes down from
> the Roman Empire. 

It should also be pointed out that the main real difference until the 
mid-late empire was that an officer was an appointee and usually not a 
career soldier. Also there were many fewer of them than we'd expect to 
day, and the 'NCOs' (which included centurions, BTW) did much more than 
they do in many armies today.

My understanding is that the real officer-men break comes from the 
medieval armies and the early professional armies that evolved from 
them, with a dose of 'Romanism' as interpreted by the people of the 
day.

> The reasons for the strict adherence to ranks and such is control. 
> One person has to be responsible, and those under him have to be
> ready to obey orders without hesitation.  There is a reason why
> officers are forbidden to socialize to closely with the enlisted
> men, it breaks down that wall. 

While this is certainly true, it has always intrigued me that Sergeants 
(to some extent) and Corporals (to a large extent) socialise with their 
men, and are still obeyed at once when the chips are down.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 05:19:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Wed Aug 28 04:19:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Starships: Melting ,or Unmelting?
Message-ID: <000001c24e84$b29e3ec0$219e67cb@robert>

Robert Uhl wrote:-

> The Galenic system survived for more than a thousand years,
> rather longer than our own; it's the height of hubris, I think, to
imagine
> that ours is _truth_.  It's merely an approximation thereof, albeit
the
> most perfect approximation thus far.

Therefore 'it' (the current scientific knowledge base and the scientific
method) is the most consistent basis for extrapolating into the future
now available.

> I fully expect that at some point--ten years from now or ten centuries
> hence--our system will be found inadequate, and new paradigms and ways
of
> looking at the universe will be made necessary.

I don't think that completely discarding the old is necessary,
inevitable or even useful. The history of development of any area of
knowledge, craft, or profession is of (general) interest.

Using the biomedical sciences as an example, the lack of a tradition of
experimentation and the reliance on traditional authorities were what
led to the persistence of 'Galenical' ideas.

<Ob Trav: Vilani conservatism?>

Without a knowledge of the microscopic structure of tissues, the basis
of heredity, the existence of micro-organisms, the chemical principles
underlying modern pharmacology, cardiovascular physiology (circulation
of the blood!), etc. etc. there were bound to be some errors in
'Galenical' doctrines.

Molecular biology has revealed incredible details about the way life
works. Population biology has revealed the complexity involved in the
way groups of organisms interact. Yet the surface has barely been
scratched in these two areas.

There will be incredible discoveries in the years ahead. But they will
be additions to the treasure-trove of knowledge rather than reasons to
throw away the accumulated data and start over.


Robert O'Connor
Medico, gamer


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 05:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Wed Aug 28 04:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re : Autodocs are starting to appear
Message-ID: <000101c24e85$aae386d0$219e67cb@robert>

Leonard Erickson wrote:-
> It occurs to me to wonder what happens if a couple of badly injured
folks
> drag themselves to the *one* autodoc, and *both* crawl inside.

The autodoc's AI should recognize the casualties as two people.

However, if they are both really badly injured, creating a conjoined
circulation may be a useful expedient (share liver and kidneys
temporarily, for example).

Depends on the depth of knowledge in the AI's files.

On the other hand, if the autodoc was playing up, well...
<weg>


Robert O'Connor
Medico, gamer


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 06:34:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Wed Aug 28 05:34:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Nebula worlds
In-Reply-To: <20020826084006.13ca1de4.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <000001c24e8f$215f0380$5a974c51@zinzan>

But of course only the English could make it their national game :)

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Jens Rydholm
Sent: 26 August 2002 07:40

On Sun, 25 Aug 2002 03:49:05 +0100
"Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor@rctrevor.com> wrote:

> appear dark to normal eyes?  And given typical OTU technology  is it 
> possible that such a system (not the star, just  the  planets) be 
> overlooked or  missed  by  Imperial  astronomers  if  it  were located

> 10-20 parsecs beyond the Imperial border?  Or is this all just space 
> opera crap?

The important question you missed is: Will the inhabitants, upon
discovering the galaxy out there, decide to wipe it all out? And will
there be a war brutal enough to name a game after it?   ;-)



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 06:38:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Aug 28 05:38:07 2002
Subject: [TML] A TL 8 ATV
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020828083558.02196380@mail.charter.net>

http://maximog.com/

Probably a pain to produce using G:Vehicles or FF&S.:-)


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 06:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Wed Aug 28 05:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Steathing Starships
Message-ID: <00c301c24e90$661f0000$7400a8c0@matt>

The main problem seems to be heat radiation, so couldn't we postulate a heat
sink made from a substance akin to the thermal tiles used on the space
shuttle, only greatly improved, that can 'store' heat until such time as you
can radiate it away when detection no longer matters?

The shuttle tiles can be heated to several hundreds, if not thousand
degrees, yet still be held in an unprotected hand (or at least, that is the
impression I got from seeing one come out of a furnace and being picked up
on a documentary) so they must radiate heat slowly while having a very high
heat capacity. Couldn't a ship radiate like mad in Jump (so its heat is
radiated into jump space) in order to reduce the temperature of its heat
sink made of this substance, then dump heat into it when it emerges, so
reducing its radiated heat for a few hours to enable it to close to weapons
range, running on minimal power in the mean time, and once combat begins it
can radiate like mad again. After all, once you have fire weapons you will
be located almost instantly and once located it is pretty easy to keep track
of you, so radiating is of little consequence.

The whole point of this is to not be located in the first place, until you
are so close that they can't fail to spot you anyway, or you have slipped
through the opponents sentry's to your objective. Once you *are* detected
you aren't going to lose them anyway, so radiating then seem to be of little
consequence.

So, just before emerging from jump you start dumping heat into your cold
heat sink and run on minimal power, storing it there until you are
discovered or commence firing, whereupon you dump the heat from you maximum
power output, and that stored in the heat sink, into your radiators as
stealth has become superfluous.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 06:54:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 28 05:54:03 2002
Subject: [TML] zzzzzzzzzz mmph . . . huh?
Message-ID: <125.159ad659.2a9e21ab@aol.com>

>Loren - as one of the main writers of "Space: 1889", are you up for 
>comments?

Sorry, I haven't been following this thread. What is it I need to comment on?

Bear in mind I'm going to be away from the keyboard starting very early tmw 
morning -- I'll be at Dragon Con in Atlanta Georgia until 3 September.

LKW

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 07:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 28 06:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Economics of Technology
Message-ID: <6d424b6d2fad.6d2fad6d424b@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Date: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 6:24 am
Subject: Re: [TML] Economics of Technology

> on 8/27/02 6:15 PM, Hal at hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> 
> > 
> > 
> > I suspect that in the time of the imperium, nationalization laws 
> are a
> > major no no - after all, the imperium protects trade ;)
> 
> Only interstellar trade.  Something about the space between the stars.
> wouldn't nationalization be a purely local matter.  Unless the new
> government cut off trade with the outside.  Why should the 
> Imperium care
> who's running things as long as the goods flow?

OTOH, if the expropriated properties belong to a sufficiently powerful 
corporation (i.e., one with influence with the subsector duke or other 
major nobles), the nationalization then becomes an interstellar issue, 
and thus a matter for the Imperium.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 08:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed Aug 28 07:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Starships: Melting ,or Unmelting?
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22EAD@USCHM203>

There's not much harm in using as much hard science, except for the fact
that you might date yourself very quickly.
I love H. Beam Piper, but get a chuckle out of the fact that interstellar
governments are run by computers the size of Eniac that still use punch
cards.
Recordings are still made on tape---but hey! You can transmit an entire tape
at 8X speed to save time!!!! Wow!
When I was in High School the Traveller Portable Computer seemed like
something I might not see in my lifetime. CDs were unheard of. And the
internet, while nominally in existence, was unknown and mostly undreamed of
beyond a small handful of academic and military users.
Email? If you told me 20 years ago I could talk to my friend every day even
though he had moved to another state...not only send messages, but pictures,
video clips, and music, I would  have laughed.
Or, being an sf fan, sighed "If only it were so."
Cloning? Whattareyou kiddin' me! A hundred years away at least.
All I'm saying is it's a bit hasty to say "This is impossible" or "You can't
do that".
I write a little now and again, and have learned to keep any actual science
to a bare minimum. Enough to be believable, but not enough to get myself
painted into a corner.
I once cut a lengthy passage explaining a data transmission at so many
gigabytes per second. First of all, it wasn't neccessary to the story. And
second of all, that "gee whiz" transmission speed in the year 2241 AD might
be laughable in ten years.
And there's always a chance, could be tomorrow, could be a hundred years
from now, some monumental discovery will change everything we thought we
knew about physics (or the opposite sex-now wouldn't that be a boon to
humanity?)

For myself, as long as no major physical laws are broken, I'm fine with a
few handwaves here and there.
And, of course, there will never, ever be Time Travel in any Traveller
campaign of mine---unless, of course, it would make for a good adventure :)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 08:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Aug 28 07:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] wet navies
Message-ID: <200208281421.NSS06810@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

david.d.jaques-watson says
>>How do canon starship weapons function under water? Or 
>>would supercavitating torps be better.
>
>Question was first answered for CT in an old JTAS magazine - 
>I *think* it was JTAS #22's "Seastrike", by the UK's fabled 
>Marcus L. Rowland. The two Challenge articles cover it as 
>well, this time for MT.

See Nomads of the World's Oceans for using CT weapons in 
water.
________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 08:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Wed Aug 28 07:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Dragon Con
In-Reply-To: <125.159ad659.2a9e21ab@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020828144207.81144.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>

--- GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
>
> Bear in mind I'm going to be away from the keyboard
> starting very early tmw 
> morning -- I'll be at Dragon Con in Atlanta Georgia
> until 3 September.

ARRRGG!!!!

Loren, you gotta advertise these things to us.  I will
have to try to get to Atlanta this weekend now.  Drat,
now I'm gonna be really bummed if I can't make it.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 08:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Wed Aug 28 07:47:02 2002
Subject: Subject: Re: [TML] Alternatives to terran military
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22EAF@USCHM203>

Just a note of interest. Roman legionaries were subdivided into groups of 8
men, though this might have been more of an administrative division than a
combat one. These men ate together, slept in the same tents, and drilled
together, along with, I imagine, watching each others backs, helping each
other with armor, weapon's maintenance, etcetera.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 08:51:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Wed Aug 28 07:51:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Economics of Technology
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020827085656.00a49e50@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <000001c24ea2$370024e0$d49a4c51@zinzan>

I am going to use Real World (TM) examples, but hopefully keep this on
topic.  (i.e. That means I am not really interested in debating the
rights and wrongs of current policies of real world governments or
corporations)

Sounds great BUT how come this hasn't happened everywhere on Earth now.
How come Iron Age tribesman still live (precariously) in the Amazon
rainforest, why hasn't most of Africa progressed to European standards
of living?

My answer - politics, human greed and culture. 

Some societies don't want to advance that fast - not everyone sees the
benefits of industrialisation.  

Often the person making money through low costs, really wants to save
money and leaves out things like Health and Safety or training.  Think
Bhopal (?) or the dumping of highly toxic waste in certain African
countries because it is cheap.

Modern capitalism (and Western Democracy) relies very heavily on short
term gains; this is why the current Earth Summit in Johannesburg on
Sustainable development is having so many problems.  Businesses (and
politicians) are more concerned with the next years and next 5 yrs
markets rather than the true long term (20+ years).

Corruption and self-interest can be the cause of failure, If you have
bypassed the entrenched aristocrats you are likely to rapidly run into
problems.  These could range from punitive taxes, to riots, wild cat
strikes etc.

Stability is required for this sort of idea to work, A society where
such rapid changes are taking place tends to be highly unstable and the
costs tend to be much higher than originally planned thereby decreasing
profits noticeably.

For all the above reasons I tend to agree with Mr Whipsnade's view of
Low Tech cultures.  They are those that either choose or are incapable
of advancing technologically.  

Just as an aside I know several people have commented that as trade on
High Tech, Hi pop worlds only accounts for a small (ISTR 1-2%) of Gross
Planetary Product, it's loss would be minimal.  At the moment I believe
world trade is running just 1-2% below it's levels prior to 2001.  Yet
this seems to be having a VERY real affect on the world economy.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Hal
Sent: 27 August 2002 14:28
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] Economics of Technology

Hello Folks,

     <  big snip >

Wanna see how a man with a higher tech base can get wealthy quick?

1) he buys power generation equipment and operates it.  He charges the 
locals for the benefit of having power in their homes.  His high tech
power 
generator is modest by normal standards, but is cheaper to run than the
low 
tech power generation systems on the low tech world.  He does this
because 
he earns income on the very thing he needs for his factories... power.

2) he buys cheap luxuries or necessities for the work force he will 
employ.  A simple "clinic" will dispense better medical treatment to the

locals than what the "local aristocrats" provide.  Even if he operates
it 
at cost - he's still making out like a bandit because he is keeping his 
cheap labor force healthy and he's generating good will.

3) due to the monopoly on higher tech gadgets and/or knowledge, our
budding 
Rockefeller or Gates, monopolizes as much as he can with the local 
populace.  He insinuates himself with the local society such that he 
provides the rich and middle class of the world, with things they don't 
provide on their own.

4) the man in the mean time, has figured out, that the cheaper work
force 
expense plus the expense of shipping the product per unit, is *still* 
cheaper than manufacturing that same item on a higher tech world.  So he

ships his product to the higher tech world instead of manufacturing it
on 
the higher tech world.  An example of this in today's society would be
the 
electronics manufacturing in Asia...

5) now his workers are earning more than the locals are, but less than
what 
the "high tech world" workers are.  They can afford some higher tech 
luxuries with their money.  He imports goods that he knows the locals
will 
want.  He opens stores.  He opens service providers and so forth.  He
even 
runs a local school that uplifts the poor's education levels to
something 
that is worth having.  Why?  Because by now, the "businessman" realizes 
there is more money to be had by diversifying.  He realizes that the
locals 
want luxuries.  For a modest investment of finding a how to book about
the 
lifestyle of the high tech world some 200 years ago - he learns how to 
manufacture primitive TV's or radios etc...  He doesn't even have to do
the 
R&D if he doesn't want to.  Or?  He uses modern luxury goods produced 
elsewhere in the Imperium.

In short - human greed and human nature being what it is - will
ultimately 
make it so that someone coming in from a high tech world to a lower tech

world - has the opportunity to make his money.  Why are western
companies 
fighting for access to Japan or China's markets?  Because there is a
profit 
to be made.  And the more profit there is to be made, the more people
will 
fight until the profit to be made is marginal (i.e. too many 
competitors).  But if there are too many competitors?  Chances are, that

world has finally reached a high tech status on its own.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 09:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Aug 28 08:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Knowing and doing
Message-ID: <F8eykwLS4xlGVfuTeC100004c7e@hotmail.com>

From: Flykiller@aol.com

     "I find it hard to envision a human society, so lacking in ability and 
adaptability and wealth accumulation that it cannot advance after a few 
hundred years, as being capable of surviving at all.  Not even China is that 
hidebound."


Sir,

     Hard to envision?  Pick up any classical history text.
     Egypt barely progressed for millenia, yet was reasonably stable and 
accumulated enough wealth to leave behind some rather impressive monuments.  
They only adopted iron implements and tools after contact with migrants and 
invaders forced them to do so.
     The empires and city states of the Fertile Crescent played out over ten 
centuries of history, war, and empire (Babylon, Sumer, Sargon, Hammurabi, 
etc.) with no appreciable changes in technology.  From the beginning of the 
period until the end, they grew crops the same way, wrote the same way, 
fought the same way, and used the same tools.
     The idea of progress and advancement is a very recent one.

     "Depends on what you mean by "have better investment opportunities".  
If 1000 entrepreneurs are competing for 500 opportunities where they live, 
then many of them will have to look elsewhere."

     If they're allowed to do so.  Also, the culture needs to produce 
entrepreneurs too.  That's not necessarily a given.  In human terms, the 
West's entrepreneurial progressive culture is the exception, not the rule.

     "In the southern U.S. many companies dismantle their operations and 
move a few miles across the border to Mexico where workers and the costs of 
doing business (such as taxes, environmental regulations, OSHA, workmen's 
compensation, and other such) are much cheaper."

     If the business climate over the border is so favorable why didn't the 
Mexicans themselves build the factories?  Why did they have to wait for 
outsiders to do it?  The petro-boom of the 70's and 80's gave them the 
capital and they're not stupid, so why didn't it happen until outsiders did 
it?
     The answer is simple; culture.
     If insulated from outside contact and pressures, most human societies 
have a tendency to reach a static point.  As a species, we are lazy.
     Safely behind the sea and deserts, Egypt happily puttered along with 
bronze, copper, wood, and even stone(!!!) tools and weapons while the 
Hittites and Assyrians carved out empires with iron a few hundred kilometers 
away.
     Jump drive and the Imperial Navy can provide all the isolation that a 
planet can wish for.  Pay your taxes, keep your nobles happy, and the Third 
Imperium will ensure that no one upsets your apple cart.
     Remember, progress and advancement are new concepts.  Even during the 
Renaissance people thought of themselves as only recovering and relearning 
the knowledge of the ancients and not progressing.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 09:20:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Wed Aug 28 08:20:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Steathing Starships
In-Reply-To: <00c301c24e90$661f0000$7400a8c0@matt>
Message-ID: <20020828151913.78911.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Matthew Bond <mattgbond@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> The main problem seems to be heat radiation, so
> couldn't we postulate a heat

I don't know that this has been brought up yet or not,
but it occurs to me that many times "new" developments
have come about as a result of "new" needs.

I mean, our current stealth tech came about in
response to the developments in the field of radar and
the need to hide from it.

Isn't it possible that since we don't have any need to
hide a space ship while it is in space, we haven't
seen any development on this front.  Something like
what Matthew suggests may be "just around the corner"
of development, but we aren't walking that path yet
because we don't have the need.

There was some serious skepticism IIRC about the
ability of radar to really find something.  But it
did.  And once it became necessary to defeat that
locating technique, we began down the path of research
to discover how to defeat it.  We are much further
than we were pre-WWII.

Perhaps all we are waiting on to discover a way to
mask a heat signature while in our space ships is,
quite simply, a need.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 09:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Aug 28 08:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A TL 8 ATV
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020828083141.02189f50@mail.charter.net>

http://maximog.com/

Probably a pain to produce using G:Vehicles or FF&S.:-)


-------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Let me put it this way:
today is going to be a learning experience.
-------------------------------------------------------




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 09:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Wed Aug 28 08:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Economics of Technology
In-Reply-To: <1961.64.8.3.28.1030510489.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <000201c24ea8$53690920$d49a4c51@zinzan>

Just a sudden thought (i.e. I've not thought it out fully) could you
have hit upon the real reason TL advances are so slow.  The Imperium
does not prevent such nationalisation by governments - therefore such
off world investment is rarer than we think.  In fact it would only
happen if the organisation was large enough (think Mega Corps) to
dominate the entire government.

This would explain a number of the captive and Company owned systems out
there and help explain the amount of (canon) covert ops run by the Mega
Corps - control of the governments of systems is the ultimate defence
against nationalisation AND imperial charges of undo interference.  This
would easily raise the cost of off-world investing and mean most corps
would cherry pick planets and ignore others.  Therefore leading to many
backward planets.

Thoughts all?

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of hal@buffnet.net
Sent: 28 August 2002 05:55

What I am suggesting is that any capital taken from one world to
another, and then suddenly appropriated by a local government without
having paid fair value for it - will encourage a lot of worlds to take
just the route you suggested - naturalization.  Once that happens
however, the business and economic climate chills big time.  The only
way such a climate can be thawed out is either a measured response
against naturalization, or an official response in a trade treaty in the
first place.  Any government that finds itself naturalizing assets of an
interstellar organization will find itself at the sharp end of a hired
mercenary unit that enforces "contracts".

In short - the "theft" of property by a government is something that the
Imperium cannot sanction.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 09:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug 28 08:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Alternatives to terran military
In-Reply-To: <3D6D5835.16952.1C1050@localhost>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020827221012.009f1780@mindspring.com>
 <20020828023019.27722.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020828083208.009f0130@mindspring.com>

At 11:09 PM 8/28/02 +1200, you wrote:
> > The reasons for the strict adherence to ranks and such is control.
> > One person has to be responsible, and those under him have to be
> > ready to obey orders without hesitation.  There is a reason why
> > officers are forbidden to socialize to closely with the enlisted
> > men, it breaks down that wall.
>
>While this is certainly true, it has always intrigued me that Sergeants
>(to some extent) and Corporals (to a large extent) socialise with their
>men, and are still obeyed at once when the chips are down.

In the US Army, such social activities are still governed by the 
formalities of the service.  Even if I saw my squad leader sipping a bear 
at The Aztec (strip club on Victory Drive outside Ft. Benning) I wouldn't 
go up to him and say "hey John, bitch of a week, huh?"  I'd still be 
required to call him Sergeant and treat him with respect.


-- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
   http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Embrace Fascism.        The uniforms look cool
   Author of _GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces_



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 09:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Aug 28 08:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Loren and Mark (and the rest of us) need to keep our eyes peeled...
Message-ID: <200208281539.NSW01395@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

The Army is fond of stealing art work, as well as ideas.

http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/240/nation/MIT_s_soldier_dra
ws_book_artists_ire+.shtml

________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 09:47:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas Berry)
Date: Wed Aug 28 08:47:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Off to WorldCon!
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020828084159.009f0ce0@mindspring.com>

Folks, I'm heading off to Con Jose, the 60th World Science Fiction 
Convention later today.

Those in the area who want to get together for dinner or a toast to the 
General can either leave me a message on the Voodoo Message Board (if you 
are a member), come by the publications room (in the Fairmont,) or meet in 
the Fairmont's lobby at around 1800 on Friday.

-- 

Douglas E. Berry   gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/gridlore/

Cry "CHEEBLE!" and let slip the hamsters of war!



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 10:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Wed Aug 28 09:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Economics of Technology
In-Reply-To: <4913.64.8.3.28.1030507747.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <000101c24ea7$732ed830$d49a4c51@zinzan>

IMHO this question all depends on how much interference with planatery
governments the Imperium allows.  From the variety of government types,
law levels in the Imperium I would say that so long as the planet does
not interfere (support of piracy etc.) with the transport of trade
through it's system it can pretty much do as it wishes.  IMTU some
planets license all types of off world trade and may restrict items from
trade (see the Law Levels for ex.) without triggering Impie intervention
so long as these planets do not trouble the traders (and X-Boats etc)
passing through.

The Imperium deals with governments, so long as thoise governments
(however representative they are) do not interfere with other worlds or
the trade between them they are free to set whatever plicies they like.
For Ex: IMTU systems may ban certain goods from Import (but not export)
at whim but may not charge duty for any items to be imported/exported.
Bans on exported goods may be applied for via the Subsector nobility but
need very good justification to be allowed (preventing an ecological
disaster etc.)

As for the sophont below, the very self same imperial rules could lead
him to being charged with undo inteference in a systems local affairs
unless of course said sophont has more political backers than the
government.  :)

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of hal@buffnet.net
Sent: 28 August 2002 05:09

> on 8/27/02 6:15 PM, Hal at hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>> I suspect that in the time of the imperium, nationalization laws are 
>> a major no no - after all, the imperium protects trade ;)
>
> Only interstellar trade.  Something about the space between the stars.

> wouldn't nationalization be a purely local matter.  Unless the new 
> government cut off trade with the outside.  Why should the Imperium 
> care who's running things as long as the goods flow?

Um Tod,
  The underlying concept here is that the person who is investing in a
low
  tech environment *is* an imperial citizen.  Such a person *would* be
  protected by imperial laws as opposed to local laws.  If it was a
local
  businessman, then all bets are off.  But it won't be a local
businessman
  because the postulate here is that we are asking why a High tech
  individual wants to even bother with low tech societies.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 10:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Aug 28 09:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A TL 8 ATV
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020828083558.02196380@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <B9924554.6B332%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/28/02 5:36 AM, Mark Urbin at eclipse@urbin.net wrote:

> http://maximog.com/
>=20
> Probably a pain to produce using G:Vehicles or FF&S.:-)
>=20

Considering what it would cost in RL and the fact that it's an untested
design, why bother?  It a rich man's toy.  For a lot less money there are
some very capable, and proven large ATVs. There are several Russian models
that one can get for a (relative) song.

It's interesting to note that the LBBs have the ATV listed for Cr30,000, or
about $90,000 US.  The Maximog is listed as more than a Hummer and less tha=
n
a Boeing 777, and the Hummer retails at right around $100,000.

I notice that once can buy an 8-wheel drive, amphibious, armored ATV
produced by the Arzamas Macine Building Plant for about 1,000,000 rubles fo=
r
the most deluxe machine they make. One designed for 8 passengers.  That
figure to be around Cr11,000, leaving another Cr19,000 for additional
customization.

ObTrav.  You can buy this shiny new LSP ATV for Cr30,000, or for a fraction
of the cost, you can get a surplus military vehicle for around Cr5,000 that
has more capability and a proven track record.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 10:21:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas R Glatz)
Date: Wed Aug 28 09:21:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Starships: Melting ,or Unmelting?
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 28 Aug 2002 10:43:34 +1000."
 <20020828104334.D5293@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <200208281617.g7SGHdE26348@catenary.cesa.opbu.xerox.com>

> Douglas R Glatz wrote:
> > Forgive me for being obtuse, but are saying that the quantum
> > computers that are being posited today were being predicted back in
> > the 70's?
> 
> No, but quantum computers don't extend the theoretical limits on
> computation power.  They're just an engineering advance.
> 
> 
> >  How about nanites or nano-tube construction?
> 
> Predicted, and again an engineering concern rather than a physical
> limitation.
> 
> 
> >  Super-cavitation?
> 
> Engineering again.
> 
> 
> >  And isn't engineering ultimately physics made material?
> 
> Yes.  However, engineering limitations are usually *much* more
> stringent than physics limitations.  For example, the engineering
> limits on material strength are still at least ten orders of magnitude
> below the physical limits.  The current engineering limits on
> computation are at least *forty* orders of magnitude short of the
> physical limits.
> 
> 
> > I've also heard of a few who are starting to chafe under Einstein's
> > theories and are trying to poke holes in them - which, if true, will
> > change a lot of the basic assumptions of physics, right?
> 
> Maybe, maybe not.


ouch.  If this wasn't an invitation to discontinue this discussion, I don't 
know what is.  All you've given me here is, basically, "I'm right, you're 
wrong".

It is obvious, to me at least, that my vision of a Traveller where all things  
might be possible is not of interest to you.  And since this is basically the 
same reception I got the last time I attempted to discuss potential future 
tech against our current RL understanding of physics, I will now discretely 
withdraw into the silence of the night.

douglas

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in 
your philosophy."

--From Hamlet, Prince of Denmark - 1601 - Act I. - Scene 5.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 10:28:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Aug 28 09:28:04 2002
Subject: [TML] A TL 8 ATV
In-Reply-To: <B9924554.6B332%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B99247ED.6B335%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/28/02 9:16 AM, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:

> I notice that once can buy an 8-wheel drive, amphibious, armored ATV
> produced by the Arzamas Macine Building Plant for about 1,000,000 rubles =
for
> the most deluxe machine they make. One designed for 8 passengers.  That
> figure to be around Cr11,000, leaving another Cr19,000 for additional
> customization.
>=20

A proper ATV.

See http://www.rbs.ru/vttv/99/polygon/e/bus/01.htm

And all for 2,000,000 rubles, or Cr21,939
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 10:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Wed Aug 28 09:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Starships: Melting ,or Unmelting?
In-Reply-To: <200208281617.g7SGHdE26348@catenary.cesa.opbu.xerox.com>
Message-ID: <20020828162811.2720.qmail@web20907.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Douglas R Glatz <douglasg@cesa.opbu.xerox.com>
wrote:
> It is obvious, to me at least, that my vision of a
> Traveller where all things  
> might be possible is not of interest to you.  And
> since this is basically the 
> same reception I got the last time I attempted to
> discuss potential future 
> tech against our current RL understanding of
> physics, I will now discretely 
> withdraw into the silence of the night.
> 
> douglas

Before you withdraw, note that there are some of us
saying, "I was gonna say what douglas said, only not
so eloquently, nor as convincingly."

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 10:35:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Aug 28 09:35:38 2002
Subject: [TML] A TL 8 ATV
Message-ID: <200208281628.NSX00347@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>ObTrav.  You can buy this shiny new LSP ATV for Cr30,000, or 
>for a fraction of the cost, you can get a surplus military 
>vehicle for around Cr5,000 that has more capability and a 
>proven track record.

Well, Mr. Glenn, what we're really in the market for is a 
model that has some hot exhaust pipes running along the upper 
flanks of the vehicle to keep the natives from climbing 
aboard.  I understand that almost all the vehicles you sell 
have a small fusion plant, but I was wondering how many had 
waste heat vents in that configuration.  Yes, well, I know 
that a surplus military vehicle wouldn't do that, but you 
see, we used to have this old MHD turbine vehicle, and boy, 
was that waste heat useful in an offworld setting, you know 
what I mean?  A vehicle that could actually swim would be 
nice as well.  Do you have anything like that here on the lot?


________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 10:39:36 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas R Glatz)
Date: Wed Aug 28 09:39:36 2002
Subject: [TML] Economics of Technology
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 27 Aug 2002 21:15:22 EDT."
 <5.0.2.1.2.20020827210056.00a4fc60@mail.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <200208281631.g7SGVGE26788@catenary.cesa.opbu.xerox.com>

> >Except that he is going to have to import the technicians to run and maintain
> >it (at least at the start) and pay them at the level they *know* they should
> >be paid at, plus bonuses for dragging them out into the outback.  They, in
> >turn, will be communicating their contempt of the 'ignorant savages' in their
> >dealings with the natives (or at the very least, rubbing their own
> >'sophistication' in).  For a historical example, I draw your attention to the
> >period when India was an English colony.
> 
> 
> I draw your attention to the fact that fusion power plants in Traveller can 
> be run and maintained by a ship's engineer  <wink>
> 

True, true.  But how many trained starship engineers are going to like being 
dropped in the way, way outback.  With no hope of getting to a better port? :)

> >Until such time as the planet's government thinks that the local know-how is
> >sufficient to work the plant - and then the owner is given a one-way ticket
> >off the planet and *perhaps* enough time to catch the starship.  I draw your
> >attention to the nationalization of oil in the Middle East in the 60's and
> >70's.
> 
> 
> I suspect that in the time of the imperium, nationalization laws are a 
> major no no - after all, the imperium protects trade ;)
> 

Actually, IMTU, the Imperium promotes intersteller trade.  And while the Count 
for the system works on developing the assets of the system (which is where 
(s)he derives the majority of their income).  However, they have very little 
control over what happens outside the extraterritorial zones, other than 
applying pressure in those areas that they do control and that interface 
directly with the planetary authority.

Having said that, I'm sure that the Counts and Barons of a local system have a 
number of 'unofficial' strings that they could pull, should it be necessary.

It should also be noted that there could be compelling reasons for the 
nobility of the Imperium to *want* to keep low-TL worlds down.  Personal feuds 
between noble families, business decisions by mega-corps, maintaining cheap 
pools of labor, keeping agrarian planets producing food, etc...

douglas



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 10:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas R Glatz)
Date: Wed Aug 28 09:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] actual fun
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 27 Aug 2002 23:32:01 EDT."
 <8.2b8f8acd.2a9d9e31@aol.com>
Message-ID: <200208281639.g7SGdsE27050@catenary.cesa.opbu.xerox.com>

> I think you hit the nail on the head here.
> 
> There seem to be three approaches to Traveller.  The first is REALISM.  
> Physics and math are dominant, and exist in tension with the RPG.  The second 
> approach is PLAUSIBILITY.  The desire to play an RPG dominates, and people 
> will accept all sorts of plausible assertions with an understanding that in 
> the future things will exist that we don't comprehend now, while 
> simultaneously they will not accept obvious absurdities ("you can breath in a 
> vaccuum").  The third approach is HANDWAVING.  This is the assertionist 
> approach.  "Gravitics exist.  Fusion power plants exist."  Etc.

Best damn definition of it I've seen yet.  Bravo.

douglas




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 10:47:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Aug 28 09:47:49 2002
Subject: Subject: Re: [TML] Alternatives to terran military
Message-ID: <200208281637.NSY00890@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Hurrel, Brian says
>Just a note of interest. Roman legionaries were subdivided 
>into groups of 8 men, though this might have been more of an 
>administrative division than a combat one. These men ate 
>together, slept in the same tents, and drilled
>together, along with, I imagine, watching each others backs, 
>helping each other with armor, weapon's maintenance, 
>etcetera.

I would bet that the battlefield technology of the day and 
the strategy/tactics employed, the communications possible, 
and the transportation available would modify the 
organization of units.

One of my favorite books is a published version of someone's 
thesis on the impact of the rifle on drill, tactics, unit 
organization, etc.  It goes back to the matchlock, and walks 
you slowly (and very sleepily) up to the Civil War.  

The current US thinking is that troops trained to higher and 
higher levels of technological sophistication, equipped with 
50 kilos of gadgets, killer weapons, and animated body armor 
will require fewer soldiers to do the job.

Perhaps units of the future will be heavy with REMFs - 
maintenance, supply, etc.  And a handful of heavily armed and 
armored soldiers will go forth and lay waste.
________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 10:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Aug 28 09:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Economics of Technology
Message-ID: <200208281657.NSY03460@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Douglas R Glatz says
>True, true.  But how many trained starship engineers are 
>going to like being dropped in the way, way outback.  With 
>no hope of getting to a better port? :)

One of the marvels of industrialization, interchangeable 
parts, and its brother, modular design and construction, make 
me wonder how easy it will be to repair things in the future, 
especially if something has been around a while.

I don't really need that much training to be an armorer in 
the Army, for example.  I need to know how to diagnose common 
malfunctions; examine parts for wear and tear; clean, strip, 
and assemble weapons; how to order parts; how to replace 
parts.  A little mechanical know-how is nice, but is not a 
basic requirement for the job.  Nor will you acquire that 
expertise (Mech-1), even if you work that job for a couple of 
years.  That aside, the weapons will be in working order as 
long as the parts keep coming in.

The majority of mechanical (and indeed most electronic) items 
today are made of components.  The people who do the 
maintenance almost never have any idea how to build the 
weapon itself from scratch, nor have any idea how to design 
one.

Tod, for example, has a very good idea how to design and 
build suppressors - probably of fairly modern design.  
Regardless of the fact that I have done a lot of 
customization of firearms, most of my work has been in 
purchasing parts and installing them.  Trigger job?  I order 
a Timney from the catalog and drop it in.  Might require some 
fitting, but that's a minor skill.  I couldn't begin to 
design or build a suppressor without some engineering 
background, and even then, the first attempts would probably 
be turkeys.

My point being that the average starship engineer probably 
could not design, nor build from scratch, a fusion 
powerplant.  If he was left in a junkyard, and given a 6 hour 
time limit, maybe he could cobble together the relevant 
parts, and maybe it would start.

Part of the idea behind a "tech level" is the underlying 
research and development infrastructure.
________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 11:30:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Wed Aug 28 10:30:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Alternatives to terran military
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020827222407.00b78950@minn.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0208281012500.4692-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>

At 12:30 PM 8/28/2002 +1000, James Ramsay wrote:
>I was wondering if anyone has ever had a military
>force in trav that didn't follow the terran mold (ie
>Troopers, NCO's, Officers). OR didn't use the terran
>ranks or unit designations.

Having just finished the Dune prequels, I wondered about
this as well.  The Sardaukar in those books have a non-standard
set of ranks (Burseg, Bashar, et al.) that I assume are based
on some historical model.  They still used Legions for the main
units.  (Where does the word 'sardaukar' come from, if not from Mr.
Herbert's imagination?)

>From http://www.eccentrix.com/gaming/caladan/hierarchy.html :

Sardaukar
  Commissioned Officers Ranks
  -Hegemon
  -Burseg
  -Caid
  -Bashar
  -Colonel
  -Levenbrech
  -Captain
  Non-Commissioned Officers Ranks
  -Private First Class
  -Private

>From http://www.warflail.com/downloads/terra.txt :
Fifty legions, made up of 500 brigades of 3,000 men each, exist (1.5 million total).
	The rank above Colonel is Bashar (military ruler of a planetary
sub-district). Above this is the Caid (military governor of a full planetary
district), whose duties call mostly for dealings with civilians. At the
top of the military hierarchy is the Burseg, the Sardaukar Commanding General.

Other related links:
http://futureprometheus.com/fold/topical.html - definitions from Dune

Fist Full of Sardaukar - miniatures rules
http://www.tyler.net/tbeard/FFSv30.PDF

Rob


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 11:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Wed Aug 28 10:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] For the discriminating hunter
Message-ID: <200208281730.NTA00015@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Was just looking at www.griffinhowe.com, and drooling.

Aside from the original Abercrombie & Fitch (the original 
outfitters in England, not the yuppie store of today), where 
one might have purchased your Mannlicher before going to 
Africa, it's a store like Griffin & Howe that needs 
translation into the Traveller universe.

Aside from big bore rifles of current vintage, what glossy 
paragons of workmanship have any of you made up for 
Traveller?  Any single shot ultra-high-power lasers for the 
hunter with icewater in his veins?

I was in a running adventure for some time that we 
called "Wild Galaxy".  We made tri-dees of our adventures in 
killing various hunters, pouncers, etc., and we had a very 
popular show syndicated across the Marches (it paid for our 
ship and travels very nicely).  This, of course, long before 
some Australian guy in RL decided to tease crocs for a living.

Anyone with fond memories of any hunting adventures?
________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 11:37:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Wed Aug 28 10:37:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Knowing and doing
In-Reply-To: <20020828152003.4243.16948.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentra
 l.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020828102842.00b321f0@mailhost.efn.org>

Just to add to Mr. Whipsnade's fine point:

Back around the time I was born, my tribe finally beat our main rival tribe 
to the Moon.  We went there a few more times, then stopped.  (We probably 
would have stopped sooner, but some of the canoes were already built.)

Why did we fall back to orbit, rather than maintaining a permanent presence 
on the Moon?  Why didn't we go on to Mars, the obvious next step?  Well, 
see, there were these other things that a lot of people felt were more 
important...

Priorities, my friend.  Priorities.



--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 11:41:00 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Aug 28 10:41:00 2002
Subject: [TML] Alternatives to terran military
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020828083208.009f0130@mindspring.com>
References: <3D6D5835.16952.1C1050@localhost>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20020827221012.009f1780@mindspring.com>
 <20020828023019.27722.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020828123526.00b783f0@minn.net>

At 08:35 AM 8/28/2002 -0700, the Lord of the Penguins wrote:

>In the US Army, such social activities are still governed by the 
>formalities of the service.  Even if I saw my squad leader sipping a bear 
>at The Aztec (strip club on Victory Drive outside Ft. Benning) I wouldn't 
>go up to him and say "hey John, bitch of a week, huh?"  I'd still be 
>required to call him Sergeant and treat him with respect.

I dunno Doug, I never paid any attention to the other patrons of that
establishment. 

Even the ones I was sitting with at the same table.


Les
 
==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 11:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Wed Aug 28 10:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Alternatives to terran military
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0208281012500.4692-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020828175524.57513.qmail@web20904.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Rob Davenport <rgd@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> 
> At 12:30 PM 8/28/2002 +1000, James Ramsay wrote:
> >I was wondering if anyone has ever had a military
> >force in trav that didn't follow the terran mold
> (ie
> >Troopers, NCO's, Officers). OR didn't use the
> terran
> >ranks or unit designations.

You might chek out the Lat Legion series by Chris
Bunch.  I haven't been paying special attention to the
ranks, but they are different than normal.  Just off
the top of my head (I'm at work) I can remember (in no
particular order):

Haut
Mil
Cent
Dec
Alt

I know I'm forgetting a few, but I'm not sure which. 
I would also have to skim through the first two books
to figure out the order.  Maybe someone recognizes
these as something similar to historical names.

Let me know if you are interested and I can see what I
can dig up.

Paul


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 13:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matt Ashley)
Date: Wed Aug 28 12:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Melting Ships redux
In-Reply-To: <20020828190006.10328.12279.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020828191448.91451.qmail@web12303.mail.yahoo.com>

> It is obvious, to me at least, that my vision of a Traveller where all things  
> might be possible is not of interest to you.  And since this is basically the 
> same reception I got the last time I attempted to discuss potential future 
> tech against our current RL understanding of physics, I will now discretely 
> withdraw into the silence of the night.
> 
> douglas

> 
> "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in 
> your philosophy."
> 
> --From Hamlet, Prince of Denmark - 1601 - Act I. - Scene 5.

The Bard says it best!  

I think that this sums up my feeling also in regards to applying a "realistic" understanding of
current physics to 3,000 years in the future.

Bottom line is that whatever floats your boat will work in your game.  Pick some level of hand
waves and go for it.

Matt

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 14:27:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Wed Aug 28 13:27:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Steathing Starships
Message-ID: <F132YcEBdyFj9ZYhtBc000082e0@hotmail.com>



>From: "Matthew Bond" <mattgbond@ntlworld.com>
>The main problem seems to be heat radiation, so couldn't we postulate >a 
>heat sink made from a substance akin to the thermal tiles used on
>the space shuttle, only greatly improved, that can 'store' heat until such 
>time as you can radiate it away when detection no longer matters?

There is a big mismatch between power levels and the ability to store heat 
energy. It is possible for short time periods but require a lot of mass and 
volume. Water is one of the best (if not the best) material for doing so and 
water can store 4.2 kJ/degC/kg. To store 1 MWh (3.6 GJ) requires 8.6 tones 
of water to be heated from 0 to 100 degrees C (with some inefficiancies say 
10 tones per MWh).

It is possible to use ice (~5 tones per MWh) or supercooled ice to increase 
the temperature range and to utilize the melting energy required to melt the 
ice (344kJ/kg). This would be somewhat harder than using liquid water. We 
would probably want to stay away from steam. When the water reaches the 
boiling point the ship would have to dump it overboard or radiate like h*ll.

>The shuttle tiles can be heated to several hundreds, if not thousand
>degrees, yet still be held in an unprotected hand (or at least, that
>is the impression I got from seeing one come out of a furnace and
>being picked up on a documentary) so they must radiate heat slowly >while 
>having a very high heat capacity.

The tiles are made from foam glass and since its an insulator it should 
conduct heat slowly. This makes them a bad choice for storing heat.  The 
tiles are accually very good radiators since they can become very hot. The 
only part that cools of quickly is the surface that's why they can be held 
shortly after coming out of a furnace.

http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/shuttle/reference/shutref/orbiter/tps/hrcitiles.html


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/


_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 14:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Smart)
Date: Wed Aug 28 13:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Technology Marches On: Mobility Denial System
Message-ID: <Springmail.0994.1030566623.0.33410800@webmail.pas.earthlink.net>

Having problems with PCs who consistently outrun the law in ground vehicles?
Don't want to just butcher them on sight? The U.S. Marine Corps has an answer!

Check it out:

http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/article.cfm?Id=745

David S.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 14:55:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 28 13:55:02 2002
Subject: [TML] actual fun
Message-ID: <44.251a66a3.2a9e9293@aol.com>

In a message dated 28/08/02 04:47:20 GMT Daylight Time, Flykiller@aol.com 
writes:


> >I'm (on the one hand) desperate about plausibility. On the other, it's got
> >to be fun.
> 
> I think you hit the nail on the head here.
> 
> There seem to be three approaches to Traveller.  The first is REALISM.  
> Physics and math are dominant, and exist in tension with the RPG.  The 
> second 
> approach is PLAUSIBILITY.  The desire to play an RPG dominates, and people 
> will accept all sorts of plausible assertions with an understanding that in 
> 
> the future things will exist that we don't comprehend now, while 
> simultaneously they will not accept obvious absurdities ("you can breath in 
> a 
> vaccuum").  The third approach is HANDWAVING.  This is the assertionist 
> approach.  "Gravitics exist.  Fusion power plants exist."  Etc.
> 
> The realists do not seem to distinguish between plausibility and 
> handwaving.
> 

The problem with this approach is that what you find plausible depends on 
what background you have. For instance my knowledge of physics is limited so 
I find lots of things about the way spacecraft in the OTU work plausible. 

My knowledge of physiology (and how it's influenced by evolution) is better 
so I don't find the Hivers, for instance, at all plausible and would quite 
happily spend ages telling folks why they wouldn't work in RL.

Thus while the definition above is attractive it doesn't actually mean 
anything. What matters in the end is how I play the game, I can be unhappy 
with parts of it but still have a lot of fun.

Charles

"All of us are creatures of a day; the rememberer and remembered alike"

Marcus Aurelius, Mediations IV/35


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 15:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tyge =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sj=F6strand?=)
Date: Wed Aug 28 14:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] actual fun
In-Reply-To: <20020828190006.10328.12279.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentr
 al.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020828224125.00a18190@mail.pi.se>

>From: Douglas R Glatz <douglasg@cesa.opbu.xerox.com>
> >
> > There seem to be three approaches to Traveller.  The first is REALISM.
> > Physics and math are dominant, and exist in tension with the RPG.  The 
> second
> > approach is PLAUSIBILITY.  The desire to play an RPG dominates, and people
> > will accept all sorts of plausible assertions with an understanding 
> that in
> > the future things will exist that we don't comprehend now, while
> > simultaneously they will not accept obvious absurdities ("you can 
> breath in a
> > vaccuum").  The third approach is HANDWAVING.  This is the assertionist
> > approach.  "Gravitics exist.  Fusion power plants exist."  Etc.
>
>Best damn definition of it I've seen yet.  Bravo.

I do not quite understand why a RPG can't combine playability and "fun" 
with realism. At least I think realism is fun. And playable.

As long as the plausibilities and handwaves are contained within and 
operate in a realistic-seeming manner without gross inconsistencies, I 
think the best way to handle them is to surround them with realism in order 
to make it all seem real. So, jump drives are not possible by our 
understanding of physics, but we want them anyway. Fine, but they operate 
off plausible reactors in starships who must get rid of the real heat they 
generate in order to fire their non-Star Wars-like lasers  So, the bugs are 
psionic, but their physiology makes sense and their homeworld isn't cut 
from Space:1999. Surround the big "lie" with many truths, and it be easier 
to take in.

Second, I believe there is a great desire among people to have more 
realism. There are lots of space-opera and science-fantasy out there, but 
still some people want complex starship design systems, realistic-seeming 
alien biospheres (not necessarily Earth-like, but not the tired old green 
six-legged horse kind) and planet generation systems taking an hour or more 
to finish. People may want more realistic space ship combat (whatever that 
is), economics that make some kind of sense etc.

For all the people who do not want to think about where the waste heat 
goes, how to simulate psychosis in war veterans or don't care about if a 
double planet is stable in that orbit, it is a simple thing to just ignore 
it. But I don't understand why it would be useful to complain about some 
people wanting those parts in order to make their vision come to life. I 
think it is great that people post on this list from a "realism" POV - in 
fact, most of the posts I save are solidly into that category, whether it 
is physical or social science.

Oh, yes. If anyone has made an attempt at a "harder-SF" Traveller, I'd be 
very interested to hear your ideas or find out if you have a home-page.

/Tyge


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 15:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Wed Aug 28 14:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] actual fun
In-Reply-To: <44.251a66a3.2a9e9293@aol.com>
References: <44.251a66a3.2a9e9293@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m3sn0ybs6k.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

CHam628781@aol.com writes:
> 
> My knowledge of physiology (and how it's influenced by evolution) is
> better so I don't find the Hivers, for instance, at all plausible
> and would quite happily spend ages telling folks why they wouldn't
> work in RL.

Enquiring minds want to know...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Security-wise, NT is a server with a 'kick me' sign taped to it.
                                                --Peter Gutmann

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 15:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Aug 28 14:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Steampunk Air Rafts
In-Reply-To: <B9905783.6AFC2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020827045901.83400.qmail@web12308.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020827074713.018137f0@192.168.0.1>

At 10:09 PM 8/26/2002 -0700, Tod Glenn wrote:
>on 8/26/02 9:59 PM, Matt Ashley at helvorn@yahoo.com wrote:
> > Absolutely outstanding!!!!  Steampunk meets Dulinor :)
> > I think it would be a hoot to have the players land on some TL-5 back water
> > and see one of those
> > contraptions fly by.  What a great idea.
> > How about have galley slaves on treadmills turning an airsrew?  Tl-1 or 
> TL-2
> > maybe!  Now that
> > would be truly cool for the local Cleopatra to lounge by in...
>How else does one get around on Barsoom?

You beat me to it.  I was about to say we're getting ready for a Space:1889 
crossover here...



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joan of Arc: the patron saint of welders
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/RPG/SV/TRAV/GH/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 15:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Aug 28 14:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Knowing and doing
In-Reply-To: <F8eykwLS4xlGVfuTeC100004c7e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D6DEA0D.16372.3550CE@localhost>

On 28 Aug 2002 at 15:04, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>      Egypt barely progressed for millenia, yet was reasonably stable
> and accumulated enough wealth to leave behind some rather impressive
> monuments.  They only adopted iron implements and tools after
> contact with migrants and invaders forced them to do so. 

More likely after shifting trade routes and changes in the external 
power structure made getting tin unreasonably expensive. Iron, 
especially of the low quality available at that time is worse than 
bronze for most tools - it has more flaws, and thus breaks more 
readily, it's softer and won't hold and edge, and it rusts very badly. 
Iron's advantages are that it doesn't work-harden as much as bronze and 
it's a _lot_ cheaper once you know the trick of manufacturing it.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 15:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Aug 28 14:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Alternatives to terran military
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020828083208.009f0130@mindspring.com>
References: <3D6D5835.16952.1C1050@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D6DEC35.17885.3DA8A6@localhost>

On 28 Aug 2002 at 8:35, Douglas Berry wrote:

> In the US Army, such social activities are still governed by the
> formalities of the service.  Even if I saw my squad leader sipping a
> bear at The Aztec (strip club on Victory Drive outside Ft. Benning)
> I wouldn't go up to him and say "hey John, bitch of a week, huh?" 
> I'd still be required to call him Sergeant and treat him with
> respect. 

So would I have been, were I in the Regulars. In the TF things were 
rather less rigid, because once we weren't being paid we became 
civilians. However being rude to an officer or sergeant on 'Civvie 
Street' was very unwise.

However while there was still some social seperation, at the level of a 
Section there was very little - unless in a fairly formal setting most 
Section Commanders (Corporals or Lance Corporals) would do their 
damnest to get pissed with their sections, and not off at the 
Corporals' Mess. The difference in this and other areas (pay, rank, 
etc.) between Section Commanders and Platoon Commanders (officers, of 
course) has always amused (and bemused) me, because a Section 
Commander's job has a lot more in common with the Platoon Commander's 
than it has with the Section 2IC's or the Platoon Sergeant's - the 
latter two positions are primarily administrative (until the sh*t hits 
the fan, anyway) and the former two operational/command related.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 15:54:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 28 14:54:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Alternatives to terran military
Message-ID: <160.12fba5dc.2a9ea03d@cs.com>

Les Bates writes: 
> At 08:35 AM 8/28/2002 -0700, the Lord of the Penguins wrote:
> 
> >In the US Army, such social activities are still governed by the 
> >formalities of the service.  Even if I saw my squad leader sipping a bear 
> >at The Aztec (strip club on Victory Drive outside Ft. Benning) I wouldn't 
> >go up to him and say "hey John, bitch of a week, huh?"  I'd still be 
> >required to call him Sergeant and treat him with respect.
> 
> I dunno Doug, I never paid any attention to the other patrons of that
> establishment. 
> 
> Even the ones I was sitting with at the same table.
> 
> 
> Les
> 

I'm still dealing with the mental image of the sergeant sipping a bear. 
That's one tough sergeant.

Doug Grimes,
The Other One


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 16:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cybernaut)
Date: Wed Aug 28 15:06:02 2002
Subject: Subject: Re: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <20020828132603.D5469@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <000501c24edf$2034cd00$90225142@george>

- So what if your lasers aren't 100% efficient?  They still generate
- less waste heat than you started with.  Theoretically you could keep
- the hull temperature as low as you like, indefinitely, while still
- radiating your waste heat invisibly.  Of course, you don't really need
- to radiate it away -- just switch off the power plant instead, and run
- your ship on recycled power.
-
- This is the sort of thing that becomes possible when you allow
- violations of the second law of thermodynamics.

I seem to recall someone talking about lasers that actually cool
the surrounding air to a significant degree (no pun intended).
IIRC, they were talking not just game stuff or theoretical lasers,
but real life off the shelf technology.

Anyone recall any of the details?

I must be Travelling,
Jason

IMTU tc+ ?tm ?tn t4+ tg to ru ge++ !3i c+(-) jt au+ ?st ls pi+ ta+
 he+ kk++ hi+ as++ va ++ ?dr ?ith ?vr ?ne so zh vi+ ?da sy-
Jason Barnabas 0609 A7335880 he+ kk++ hi+ as++ va++ A924


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 16:23:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Aug 28 15:23:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Alternatives to terran military
In-Reply-To: <160.12fba5dc.2a9ea03d@cs.com>
Message-ID: <3D6DF5E6.593.638682@localhost>

On 28 Aug 2002 at 17:53, Damage169@cs.com wrote:

> I'm still dealing with the mental image of the sergeant sipping a bear. 
> That's one tough sergeant.

Yeah, usually it takes a CSM to manage that.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 16:32:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Aug 28 15:32:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Alternatives to terran military
In-Reply-To: <160.12fba5dc.2a9ea03d@cs.com>
Message-ID: <B9929D55.6B379%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/28/02 2:53 PM, Damage169@cs.com at Damage169@cs.com wrote:

>=20
> I'm still dealing with the mental image of the sergeant sipping a bear.
> That's one tough sergeant.
>=20
> Doug Grimes,
> The Other One

Just rip the head off.  It's sooo refreshing, not to mention that it really
impresses the privates.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 16:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Aug 28 15:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Knowing and doing
Message-ID: <F208XrRjbDt3HvoFOAm00000157@hotmail.com>

From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

     "More likely after shifting trade routes and changes in the external 
power structure made getting tin unreasonably expensive. Iron,
especially of the low quality available at that time is worse than bronze 
for most tools - it has more flaws, and thus breaks more readily, it's 
softer and won't hold and edge, and it rusts very badly.
Iron's advantages are that it doesn't work-harden as much as bronze and
it's a _lot_ cheaper once you know the trick of manufacturing it."


Mr. Boleyn,

     All very good points.  Egypt's relative isolation during the period in 
question rather queer things however.  There is also evidence that, as 
bronze became more expensive and/or rare, wood and stone came back into use 
and remained in use even after iron came into use for weapons.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 16:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug 28 15:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020828070243.0224ce20@192.168.0.1>
References: <20020827142948.A2997@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020827004617.01d2da38@192.168.0.1> <20020827202429.B3631@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020827075651.01902050@192.168.0.1> <20020828093055.A5293@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020827222235.025a2eb8@192.168.0.1> <20020828130605.B5469@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020827233228.01b99cf0@192.168.0.1> <20020828165510.I5469@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020828070243.0224ce20@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020829084148.A7946@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> Fine, I'm just saying that I'm not buying that.

I'm sure you wouldn't buy a diesel-powered fridge, either.  Or a
gas-powered car.  Electricity is too convenient...


> My personal take is that it's more feasible to have a smaller, high
> efficiency generator.

Given that we don't know how CG works, we don't, and *can't*, know
what's more feasible.


> That way, your steam engine can power the lights and espresso maker
> as well as the C/G drive.

Assuming that TL5 vehicles have lights and an espresso maker.


> Hmmm...Ok. Could you shead some light on why it strips out text/plain 
> messages that use this header field
> 
> Content-Type: text/plain ; boundary="----=_Part_7734_1186448.1030129283276"
[...]
> Yes, I know it doesn't match RFC 822, 4095, or a half dozen others I read 
> yesterday.

It appears that stripmime parses the field as content type
"text/plain[space]", as distinct from "text/plain".  That's a rather
unfriendly thing to do since a token may not contain whitespace.  I'll
fix that and forward it on to our fearless Listmom.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 16:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Aug 28 15:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Knowing and doing
Message-ID: <F3VfJWcIZJzlc4oG1Z40001cb49@hotmail.com>

From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>

     "Back around the time I was born, my tribe finally beat our main
rival tribe to the Moon.  We went there a few more times, then stopped. (We 
probably would have stopped sooner, but some of the canoes were already 
built.)"


Mr. St. Clair,

     And we couldn't build those canoes now even if we wanted to.  The 
Saturn V is "lost technology", the skills, tooling, everything all gone.  
Sure, we could eventually recreate the wheel, but we can't do it without 
loads of time and loads of dollars.

     "Why did we fall back to orbit, rather than maintaining a permanent 
presence on the Moon?  Why didn't we go on to Mars, the obvious next step?  
Well, see, there were these other things that a lot of people felt were more 
important..."

     Well, the Moon Shot wasn't the way to do it in the first place.  What 
it's actual goal was to beat the Commies to the Moon and nothing else.  
After we beat the other tribe, why bother anymore?


     Sincerely,
     Larsen "Hooray for Cave 73!  The hell with everyone else!"

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 17:06:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Wed Aug 28 16:06:02 2002
Subject: [TML] FW: Stripmime
In-Reply-To: <20020829084453.B7946@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <B992A567.6B384%listmom@travellercentral.com>

I received an note from Tim L. today, and have rolled out his newest update
of StripMIME.  Please report any problems.  Mark U., try posting from your
Palm.

Tod

P.S. Thanks, Tim, for taking the time to work on this.



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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 17:10:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Aug 28 16:10:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <20020829084148.A7946@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <B992A5CD.6B385%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/28/02 3:41 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:

>> Hmmm...Ok. Could you shead some light on why it strips out text/plain
>> messages that use this header field
>>=20
>> Content-Type: text/plain ; boundary=3D"----=3D_Part_7734_1186448.10301292832=
76"
> [...]
>> Yes, I know it doesn't match RFC 822, 4095, or a half dozen others I rea=
d
>> yesterday.
>=20
> It appears that stripmime parses the field as content type
> "text/plain[space]", as distinct from "text/plain".  That's a rather
> unfriendly thing to do since a token may not contain whitespace.  I'll
> fix that and forward it on to our fearless Listmom.

The new version of StripMIME that Tim provided is now live.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 17:16:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Aug 28 16:16:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Knowing and doing
In-Reply-To: <F208XrRjbDt3HvoFOAm00000157@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D6E0269.25051.9466E0@localhost>

On 28 Aug 2002 at 22:36, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

> Mr. Boleyn,
> 
>      All very good points.  Egypt's relative isolation during the period in 
> question rather queer things however.  There is also evidence that, as 
> bronze became more expensive and/or rare, wood and stone came back into use 
> and remained in use even after iron came into use for weapons.

Wouldn't surprise me - this was fairly late in Egypt's history, and I 
suspect that the capacity for innovation and change had pretty much 
faded by then. If the iron had to be mostly imported (or made by 
imported experts) it'd be too expensive to filter down into general 
society.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 17:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Aug 28 16:30:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles: canon
In-Reply-To: <20020827170014.D2997@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <B992AAF5.6B6E8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/27/02 12:00 AM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote=
:

> Tod Glenn wrote:
>> The real question is, if it's all automatic and easy, why is there
>> air/raft skill?
>=20
> Same reason there's a computer operation skill -- you still have to
> know how to instruct the air raft to do what you want, and with more
> advanced levels of skill be able to push beyond what the automatic
> systems are capable of.

Just be chance, while working on another project, I happened to find the
Air/Raft description.  According to Book 3 (It doesn't get more canonical):

"The Air/Raft can cruise at 100 kph (but is extremely subject to wind
effects)..."

With further notes that the GCarrier has "Performance similar to that of th=
e
Air/Raft".

Thus, it would seem that the Grav Vehicle (according to Holy Canon as writ
by Mark.  Book 3 page 23.) is not the rock steady vehicle we have been led
to believe by those on the list.  No wonder Air/Raft skill is required.


--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 18:03:01 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Aug 28 17:03:01 2002
Subject: [TML] PBeM player Openings
Message-ID: <B992B2B2.6B6F6%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

In the event that anyone is interested, I have a couple of openings in my
current Traveller PBeM, 'Dark Encounters'.  Anyone interested can learn mor=
e
by visiting the web site at http://pbem2.travellercentral.com or by
contacting me directly.

The first adventure has just ended, but the story continues.

As another reminder, I you would like to advertise your PBeM or run your ow=
n
on the TravellerCentral List server, you can get more info at
http://www.travellercentral.com.  Just follow the PBeM link.

Tod
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 18:12:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Wed Aug 28 17:12:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Alternatives to terran military
Message-ID: <20020829001138.32599.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
can't help with the Latin, but would point out that
the Romans had a very strict hierarchy of ranks that
clearly set officers above the NCOs of the 
day.  Much of Western military tradition comes down
from the Roman Empire.

The reasons for the strict adherence to ranks and such
is control.  One person has to be responsible, and
those under him have to be ready to obey 
orders without hesitation.  There is a reason why
officers are forbidden to socialize to closely with
the enlisted men, it breaks down that wall.

The most recent example I can recall of a an attempt
at a rankless army was the Red Army after Trotsky had
been purged.  They tried to reduce everyone 
to "leaders" and "fighters" - which worked really well
when the Wehrmacht came over the border.  The "reforms
were quickly scrapped.
END QUOTE

I was looking for a Roman feel to the language, I knew
the had a fairly strong Officer - Other ranks divide
(as most competent fighting forces do). However these
mercenary forces are going to be more like tribes,
that is every one fights for the good of the company. 

Alot might even have been born into that Legion, and
ties between individual troopers are strong so the
smallest tactical unit is two people (everyones in
locally produced Battle dress, steampunk rulz!). There
is very little grand strategy, and battles tend often
to be like pre-arranged duels (down to bidding of
forces ala mech warrior). 

Units tend to select thier own leaderm, however those
hirer in the chain of command decide who is eligible
for election (there are many single combat trials and
whatnot). So troopers will fight very hard for one
another (who are often literally there family) and the
Legions have a well cultivated sense of honour.

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://digital.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Digital How To
- Get the best out of your PC!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 18:16:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Wed Aug 28 17:16:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Steathing Starships
Message-ID: <F81YILoygXLsxpTljBO00003fa3@hotmail.com>



>From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
>>From: "Matthew Bond" <mattgbond@ntlworld.com>
>>The main problem seems to be heat radiation, so couldn't we postulate >a 
>>heat sink made from a substance akin to the thermal tiles used on
>>the space shuttle, only greatly improved, that can 'store' heat until such 
>>time as you can radiate it away when detection no longer matters?
>
>There is a big mismatch between power levels and the ability to store heat 
>energy. It is possible for short time periods but require a lot of mass and 
>volume. Water is one of the best (if not the best) material for doing so 
>and water can store 4.2 kJ/degC/kg. To store 1 MWh (3.6 GJ) requires 8.6 
>tones of water to be heated from 0 to 100 degrees C (with some 
>inefficiancies say 10 tones per MWh).
>
>It is possible to use ice (~5 tones per MWh) or supercooled ice to increase 
>the temperature range and to utilize the melting energy required to melt 
>the ice (344kJ/kg). This would be somewhat harder than using liquid water. 
>We would probably want to stay away from steam. When the water reaches the 
>boiling point the ship would have to dump it overboard or radiate like 
>h*ll.

Following up on my own post. It should be theoretically possible to store 
large amounts of energy in for example diamond, beryllium , lithium or 
sodium. Nanotubes should behave much like diamond shouldn't it? I don't know 
if there are any alloys/structures/etc that are better than the ones above 
but they where the most promising I could find in my Physics Handbook.

Some russian submarine reactors use a lead-bismuth liquid coolant but that 
seems to have a rather low specific heat capacity.

Some random data:

Element    Density   Sp. heat cap    Conductivity   Boiling Point
Diamond    3.0        509 J/kg/degK  1000 W/m/K     4600 K
Water      1.0       4190               0.6          373 K
Beryllium  1.85      1825             230           3240 K
Lithium    0.543     3570              71           1590 K
Sodium     0.971     1230             135           1156 K

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 18:23:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug 28 17:23:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Steathing Starships
In-Reply-To: <00c301c24e90$661f0000$7400a8c0@matt>
References: <00c301c24e90$661f0000$7400a8c0@matt>
Message-ID: <20020829102234.A8320@freeman.little-possums.net>

Matthew Bond wrote:
> so they must radiate heat slowly while having a very high heat
> capacity.

Actually, their main three properties are high emissivity, very low
conductivity, and very *low* heat capacity.  That's exactly the
opposite of the properties you want in a heat sink.

The idea is, the surface radiates and convects heat away very rapidly.
They have very low heat capacity, so there isn't much of it.  Then
because of their very low conductivity, heat from the interior comes
out very slowly (and there isn't much of that, either).


Ice is a much better heat sink; one of the best in fact.

Let's assume a scout wanting to deal with 20 MW of waste heat, and
suppose it wants to last a day.  That's probably not long enough to
come in from far enough out that the jump flash is difficult to
detect, and 20 MW isn't anywhere near enough to run thrusters, but
anyway...

It generates about 1.7 TJ of waste heat over that timespan, enough to
raise 1700 tons of ice from well below 0 C to 100 C.  That ice takes
up more than 120 dtons, which is greater than the entire volume of the
ship.

Now, the power dissipation is likely to be much greater than 20 MW,
especially in CT or MT, since thrusters require a great deal of power.


> reducing its radiated heat for a few hours to enable it to close to
> weapons range, running on minimal power in the mean time,

How do you close to weapons range "running on minimal power"?
Thrusters do not consume a trivial amount of power.  Often, thrusters
are the biggest power consumer.

Also, a few hours is far too short.  Jump flash is detectable way
outside the distance achievable with a few hours of thrust.

Well, technically you could enter the system at 0.2c or something from
a fair few AU out, and get off one shot as you streak past the target
a few hours later.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 18:32:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Wed Aug 28 17:32:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Alternatives to terran military
Message-ID: <20020829003111.76938.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com>

<snip>
lost of great stuff from frankie
</snip>

Thanks for all that great stuff. What I wrote down for
my TO was from memory (having no internet at home) and
there where a few mistakes (such as dozen, where I had
originally had Tri-dozen. And me forgetting what I had
for Tri-dozen). I knew it wasn't very good being
originally written in the middle of a database lecture
(always have pen and paper ready in case inspiration
strikes). 

I will probably beat the Roman ranks into place in
there equivalent number-system unit. I don't won't to
use the actual roman groupings however (neither there
names or numbers) as I like my military units to be
tactically based (ie whats good tactically, rather
than what accountants wan't) and I use the idea that
three unit groupings is the most a leader can easily
control.

I was thinking about getting the book you mentioned
(which is only $8 from mail order in austrlia) and
either DBA or DBM. There are no organised groups where
I live that play these games.

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://digital.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Digital How To
- Get the best out of your PC!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 18:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug 28 17:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Starships: Melting ,or Unmelting?
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22EAD@USCHM203>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22EAD@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <20020829103334.B8320@freeman.little-possums.net>

Hurrel, Brian wrote:
> Email? If you told me 20 years ago I could talk to my friend every
> day even though he had moved to another state...not only send
> messages, but pictures, video clips, and music, I would have
> laughed.

I wouldn't.  One of the things I was thinking about was how to do it
with inexpensive current equipment.  I certainly wouldn't have said
that it was impossible, nor even infeasible.  I would have given it
about ten years to become widespread, which was a little optimistic.


> Cloning? Whattareyou kiddin' me! A hundred years away at least.

I was surprised that it hadn't been done already.  (Apart from natural
clones, that is).  I didn't know about the rigors of clinical trial
methodology back then, though :(


> For myself, as long as no major physical laws are broken, I'm fine
> with a few handwaves here and there.

That's about what I'm interested in.  I'll even accept a few major
physical laws being broken, but I would want to explore the
consequences.


> And, of course, there will never, ever be Time Travel in any
> Traveller campaign of mine---unless, of course, it would make for a
> good adventure :)

I've run a brief time-travel game, and a longer space game in which
time travel was theoretically possible.  The latter was simply an
extrapolation of existing physical laws via FTL.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 18:40:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug 28 17:40:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Knowing and doing
In-Reply-To: <F8eykwLS4xlGVfuTeC100004c7e@hotmail.com>
References: <F8eykwLS4xlGVfuTeC100004c7e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020829103925.C8320@freeman.little-possums.net>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>      Hard to envision?  Pick up any classical history text.

How many of them were surrounded by societies both highly interested
in trade with them and substantially more advanced technologically?


> Pay your taxes, keep your nobles happy, and the Third Imperium will
> ensure that no one upsets your apple cart.

So long as you don't inhibit trade with other worlds, yes.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 18:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug 28 17:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] FW: Stripmime
In-Reply-To: <B992A567.6B384%listmom@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020829084453.B7946@freeman.little-possums.net> <B992A567.6B384%listmom@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020829104622.D8320@freeman.little-possums.net>

Listmom wrote:
> P.S. Thanks, Tim, for taking the time to work on this.

No problem.  How can I vigorously and strenuously argue with people if
their mail doesn't show up?  ;^)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 19:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Wed Aug 28 18:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Alternatives to Sobriety
In-Reply-To: <160.12fba5dc.2a9ea03d@cs.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020828201242.00ac0e70@minn.net>

Doug Grimes (The Other One) wrote:

>Les Bates writes: 
>> At 08:35 AM 8/28/2002 -0700, the Lord of the Penguins wrote:
>> 
>> >In the US Army, such social activities are still governed by the 
>> >formalities of the service.  Even if I saw my squad leader sipping a bear 
>> >at The Aztec (strip club on Victory Drive outside Ft. Benning) I wouldn't 
>> >go up to him and say "hey John, bitch of a week, huh?"  I'd still be 
>> >required to call him Sergeant and treat him with respect.
>> 
>> I dunno Doug, I never paid any attention to the other patrons of that
>> establishment. 
>> 
>> Even the ones I was sitting with at the same table.
>
>I'm still dealing with the mental image of the sergeant sipping a bear. 
>That's one tough sergeant.

One time at The Aztec I became so drunk that I would not have been able to
notice the aforementioned scene. My barracks roomate said that I had been
muttering stuff about Adam Weishaupt and the Illuminati.

Mr. Berry, our primary adherent of Pengiunism, may have stumbled on to a
drink that is unique to the Traveller Universe. Which leads to the
question, how does one make a _bear_?


Les



==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 19:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Wed Aug 28 18:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Steathing Starships
Message-ID: <F193jj0aImPiZxOASWT00003ef8@hotmail.com>



Timothy Little wrote
>Matthew Bond wrote:
> > so they must radiate heat slowly while having a very high heat
> > capacity.
>
>Actually, their main three properties are high emissivity, very low
>conductivity, and very *low* heat capacity.  That's exactly the
>opposite of the properties you want in a heat sink.
>
>The idea is, the surface radiates and convects heat away very rapidly.
>They have very low heat capacity, so there isn't much of it.  Then
>because of their very low conductivity, heat from the interior comes
>out very slowly (and there isn't much of that, either).

This is a minor nitpick (and might also be wrong) but since the tiles are 
basically made of glass they should have a rather high specific heat 
capacity (~800 J/degK/kg). The thing that hurts them is the low density 
(around 0.1) since most of the volume is air.


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 19:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Aug 28 18:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <20020829084148.A7946@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020828070243.0224ce20@192.168.0.1>
 <20020827142948.A2997@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020827004617.01d2da38@192.168.0.1>
 <20020827202429.B3631@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020827075651.01902050@192.168.0.1>
 <20020828093055.A5293@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020827222235.025a2eb8@192.168.0.1>
 <20020828130605.B5469@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020827233228.01b99cf0@192.168.0.1>
 <20020828165510.I5469@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020828070243.0224ce20@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020828210229.0202fab0@192.168.0.1>

At 08:41 AM 8/29/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
> > Fine, I'm just saying that I'm not buying that.

You wave your hand to cover the G:Vehicles glitch and I'll wave it another way.
End result is the same.

> > My personal take is that it's more feasible to have a smaller, high
> > efficiency generator.
>Given that we don't know how CG works, we don't, and *can't*, know
>what's more feasible.

Hell, it may require a good cup of tea to work.
On the other hand, most Traveller widgets run on electricity or the 
equivalent most Starship power plants put out.

> > That way, your steam engine can power the lights and espresso maker
> > as well as the C/G drive.
>Assuming that TL5 vehicles have lights and an espresso maker.

Trav TL 5, according to the LLBs, 1900-1939.  Lights and at least strong 
black coffee. :-)
Waving the hand my way gives you a little bit more versatility. It's not 
better or worse than your way.
It's just that my wave will go over better with the people I game 
with.  Your mileage may vary.

Personally, I love the idea of a steam powered air/raft.  The hole seems to 
be in the G:Vehicles rules, not your design.
FF&S states: "As with any engine, the spinning drive shaft can be connected 
directly to a mechanical contrivance, such as a winch or axle, or can turn 
an electrical generator and produce power to run other systems."
G:Vehicles glosses over this. Power is power, regardless if it's from 
rowers or a fusion plant.

> > Hmmm...Ok. Could you shead some light on why it strips out text/plain
> > messages that use this header field
> >
> > Content-Type: text/plain ; boundary="----=_Part_7734_1186448.1030129283276"
>[...]
> > Yes, I know it doesn't match RFC 822, 4095, or a half dozen others I read
> > yesterday.
>
>It appears that stripmime parses the field as content type
>"text/plain[space]", as distinct from "text/plain".  That's a rather
>unfriendly thing to do since a token may not contain whitespace.  I'll
>fix that and forward it on to our fearless Listmom.

The space bother me too after reading all those RFCs.
When I spoke with Palm Tech Support about it, they really didn't know what 
make of it.
They consider that a problem at their ISP level.  I got the impression no 
one ever questioned their header content before or quoted RFCs.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"[I will] totally dismantle every intelligence agency
in this country by piece, nail by nail, brick by
brick" -- Ron Dellums, D-Calif, 1993, after House
Democratic Caucus elected him chairman of the
House Armed Services Committee.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 19:30:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Aug 28 18:30:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Strip mime test
Message-ID: <20020829012900.6628D4516@mo120usjc.palm.net>

A mime is a terrible thing to waste.

1,2,3...check,check
----------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere. 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 19:39:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Aug 28 18:39:02 2002
Subject: [TML] FW: Stripmime
In-Reply-To: <20020829104622.D8320@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <B992A567.6B384%listmom@travellercentral.com>
 <20020829084453.B7946@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <B992A567.6B384%listmom@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020828213550.029d5eb8@192.168.0.1>

At 10:46 AM 8/29/2002 +1000, Timothy Little wrote:
>Listmom wrote:
> > P.S. Thanks, Tim, for taking the time to work on this.
>No problem.  How can I vigorously and strenuously argue with people if
>their mail doesn't show up?  ;^)

Argue?  Who's arguing? :-)  We're beating ideas on anvil of Intellect!


-------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Let me put it this way:
today is going to be a learning experience.
-------------------------------------------------------




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 19:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Aug 28 18:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Strip mime test
In-Reply-To: <20020829012900.6628D4516@mo120usjc.palm.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020828213912.00cec800@192.168.0.1>

At 01:29 AM 8/29/2002 +0000, Mark Urbin wrote:

>A mime is a terrible thing to waste.
>
>1,2,3...check,check

Beauty!  Thanks!


>----------------------------
>http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
>Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere.
>
>_______________________________________________
>TML mailing list
>TML@travellercentral.com
>http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml

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Alexander Haig: I prefer to think of it as burning his crops to the ground.
(from an interview of Mort Sahl on National Public Radio, 23nov91)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 20:27:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Wed Aug 28 19:27:04 2002
Subject: [TML] OT but interestingish: Mechwarrior Tournament
Message-ID: <003b01c24f03$0a8e7680$485d8690@computer>

Here is something interesting from a wargames club I occasionally show up at
in Brisbane:
> On Sunday 22 September 2002 Brisbane Independent Gamers (BIG) will be
> running a sealed pack tournament for the collectable miniature game
> Mechwarrior: Dark Ages. The tournament is open to all members and the
> general public.

They're not getting together to play the collectable roleplaying game
Traveller, are they?

Hmm. What would you collect? Miniatures? Well, Norris and Dulinor and
Strephon, naturally, but what about Ditzie, Larson E Whipsnade, and, of
course, General Turokan?

My mind just publically boggled.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 20:31:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 28 19:31:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
Message-ID: <OF936912D5.B596CC5C-ONCA256C24.000A357F-CA256C24.000D792A@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Tod asked:
>>> The real question is, if it's all automatic and easy, why is there
>>> air/raft skill?
>>
>>Sure, that's for when you over-ride the automatics. Or push the vehicle
>>past those "Warning!" and "Caution! - Pull Up! Pull Up!" messages.
>
>Wouldn't this require a special grav vehicle?
>If it's simple to go past the automatics, lots of people will
>be doing it, including those who shouldn't.

Depends how you play it, as a GM.  ;-)  (how's that for non-committal? Ok, 
Ok...)

You may say that grav vehicles within high-tech urban areas are 
automatically put on autopilot and attached to an automated 
traffic-control system. Each craft in the control zone is tracked, and if 
you break pattern (go manual) there had better be a very good reason, 
otherwise the cops will nab you.

OTOH, you may want to take that same vehicle into the wilderness where 
there are no automatics (especially if you are a PC!  ;-). Here, you 
obviously need skill to fly the thing. Sure, you may decide that the 
vehicle has an "idiot light" approach, with certain functions automated 
(collision control, ground proximity control, automated/assisted landings, 
etc), but PCs being PCs, they'll want to override them. For example, they 
may want to chase someone through a narrow winding canyon, whereas the 
normal automatics won't let them enter because the proximity sensors say 
the walls are too close - or else will reduce the ride to a "safe" speed.

As an aside, that's all NOE is, BTW - the safe speed for a vehicle using 
sensors of a certain TL. You can always fly the vehicle faster - better 
start making those Vehicle skill rolls, however! (Formidable, 6 sec, 
fateful.  ;-)

If you simply rely on the automatics, the task becomes Simple, and 
probably even removes the "fateful" tag - but you'll lose those guys you 
were chasing, for sure! (Yet Another Plot Device, John T.!)

A lot of the answer comes back to how automated you want equipment to be 
in your game, and how much control you want imposed on your PCs.

In fact, if you are particularly clever and subtle, different worlds can 
have different approaches. Highly controlled worlds, for instance, may not 
even let you use your own vehicle in urban areas. You have to rent a 
state-owned vehicle that is effectively hard-wired into the 
traffic-control system.

<insert pic of air/raft stuck in traffic>
"What do you mean, we can't increase speed? I could _fly_ faster than this 
heap of junk!!" - Ervmisbe the Droyne.

You'd have to do an Arnie (_Total Recall_) and pull the "taxi" apart 
before you could over-ride anything. "You're five stories up, flying at 80 
klicks - do you _really_ want to destroy your car's navigation console? 
Start rolling...!"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 20:35:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Wed Aug 28 19:35:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Knowing and doing
Message-ID: <F198a0RQ3oPn2aygizV0001a691@hotmail.com>

From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>

     "How many of them were surrounded by societies both highly interested 
in trade with them and substantially more advanced technologically?"


Mr. Little,

     The Third Imperium talks quite a bit about trade, yet, according to the 
most detailed trade model we have (GT:FT), trade is a relative pittance of a 
hi-pop/hi-tech world's GWP.  It's below 1% in some cases, IIRC.
     My argument is that human cultures eventually become satisfied, they 
reach an equilibrium that requires an outside shock to upset.  In the Third 
Imperium, most worlds are well insulated from that shock.
     Look at the "brain drain" all Third and Second world nations suffer.  
Anyone with the ability and gumption to better themselves and/or make a 
difference in their native culture and society doesn't stick around.  They 
emigrate, one way or another, as soon as they can or they're co-opted by the 
current power structure.  If they emigrate, they're not around to trigger 
change.  If they're co-opted, change would upset the apple cart.  Thus 
stasis.
     In the Third Imperium, the same mechanism is at work, along with a 
healthy comm lag.  There are no satellite dishes recieving "Baywatch-Mora" 
in realtime in the cantinas on Vanejen, nothing to stir up discontent.  
Lo-tech populations are relatively insulated from the outside.  The Imperium 
is a sea of lo tech, stagnant hermit kingdoms with several small islands of 
hi tech, progressive cultures.

     "So long as you don't inhibit trade with other worlds, yes."

     You can ship in all the goods you want to, the Imperium protects that.  
But the Imperium doesn't force people to buy them.
     Take the steampunk air/raft thread for example.  Sure, we could power a 
CG unit with a steam engine, either mechanically or electrically, but would 
a CG unit be built to handle that sort of input?
Would the locals buy the unit anyway?  They don't understand it, they can't 
even begin to understand it, they certainly can't be comfortable with it, so 
why use it?  "Locomotives and paddle steamers were good enough for granddad 
and they're good enough for me."


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 20:38:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Aug 28 19:38:34 2002
Subject: [TML] OT but interestingish: Mechwarrior Tournament
In-Reply-To: <003b01c24f03$0a8e7680$485d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020828223239.01736008@192.168.0.1>

At 12:21 PM 8/29/2002 +1000, Alan Bradley wrote:
>Here is something interesting from a wargames club I occasionally show up at
>in Brisbane:
> > On Sunday 22 September 2002 Brisbane Independent Gamers (BIG) will be
> > running a sealed pack tournament for the collectable miniature game
> > Mechwarrior: Dark Ages. The tournament is open to all members and the
> > general public.
>They're not getting together to play the collectable roleplaying game
>Traveller, are they?
>Hmm. What would you collect? Miniatures? Well, Norris and Dulinor and
>Strephon, naturally, but what about Ditzie, Larson E Whipsnade, and, of
>course, General Turokan?
>My mind just publically boggled.

Digital Trading Cards!

Collect 'em All!!!!!

The ones you mentioned, plus the very rare teenage Ditzie card and the not 
as rare steam powered Whipsnade (Please, *don't* ask where the crank goes).


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
And, isn't sanity really just a one trick pony anyway? I mean, all you get
is one trick: rational thinking. But when you're good and crazy, ooo hoo
hoo, the sky's the limit! - The Tick  http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 20:49:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Wed Aug 28 19:49:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Knowing and doing
In-Reply-To: <F198a0RQ3oPn2aygizV0001a691@hotmail.com>
References: <F198a0RQ3oPn2aygizV0001a691@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <1030589296.3d6d8b7090cb7@www.paradise.net.nz>

Quoting "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>:

> difference in their native culture and society doesn't stick around.
> They 
> emigrate, one way or another, as soon as they can or they're co-opted by
> the 
> current power structure. If they emigrate, they're not around to trigger
> 
> change. If they're co-opted, change would upset the apple cart. Thus 
> stasis.
>  In the Third Imperium, the same mechanism is at work, along with a 
> healthy comm lag. There are no satellite dishes recieving
> "Baywatch-Mora" 
> in realtime in the cantinas on Vanejen, nothing to stir up discontent. 
> Lo-tech populations are relatively insulated from the outside. The
> Imperium 
> is a sea of lo tech, stagnant hermit kingdoms with several small islands
> of 
> hi tech, progressive cultures.

Frankly, given the slow TL advancement rates and small amount of trade shown in 
FT IMO the high-tech worlds, by-and-large, aren't significantly more 
progressive than the low-tech ones.
 
>  "So long as you don't inhibit trade with other worlds, yes."
> 
>  You can ship in all the goods you want to, the Imperium protects that.

However according to FT it doesn't stop the importing world slapping any size 
tarrif they like, as long as they're catholic about who they tarrif.
 
> But the Imperium doesn't force people to buy them.
>  Take the steampunk air/raft thread for example. Sure, we could power a

-- 
Rupert Boleyn

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 21:06:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug 28 20:06:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Starships: Melting ,or Unmelting?
In-Reply-To: <200208281617.g7SGHdE26348@catenary.cesa.opbu.xerox.com>
References: <20020828104334.D5293@freeman.little-possums.net> <200208281617.g7SGHdE26348@catenary.cesa.opbu.xerox.com>
Message-ID: <20020829130459.E8320@freeman.little-possums.net>

Douglas R Glatz wrote:
> ouch.  If this wasn't an invitation to discontinue this discussion,
> I don't know what is.  All you've given me here is, basically, "I'm
> right, you're wrong".

Not really, I'm just distinguishing between engineering and physics.


> It is obvious, to me at least, that my vision of a Traveller where
> all things might be possible is not of interest to you.

I prefer my science fiction to be a lot "harder" than many people do.
I never really saw Traveller as being a space opera.  It seemed (and
still seems) too low-level, and perhaps too gritty, for that.  I am
far more accepting of physics violations in space opera or fantasy
RPGs.

>From the depictions of the Traveller universe I've absorbed from
published material, I've received the impression of a world not that
far removed from our own.  Much bigger, and with a few nifty toys that
somehow got through an enormously technologically conservative
mindset, but basically similar.

In fact, despite being set much closer in time and current science,
GURPS Transhuman Space gives me a lot better impression of a society
that might in the future develop "magical" technology and extend it to
all sorts of everyday things like heat dissipation without a mention.

For some reason, the various pieces of magical technology in Traveller
always struck me as exceptions, not as the rule.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 21:18:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug 28 20:18:07 2002
Subject: [TML] actual fun
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020828224125.00a18190@mail.pi.se>
References: <20020828190006.10328.12279.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentr al.com> <5.1.1.6.0.20020828224125.00a18190@mail.pi.se>
Message-ID: <20020829131656.F8320@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tyge Sjstrand wrote:
> So, jump drives are not possible by our understanding of physics,
> but we want them anyway. Fine, but they operate off plausible
> reactors in starships who must get rid of the real heat they
> generate in order to fire their non-Star Wars-like lasers So, the
> bugs are psionic, but their physiology makes sense and their
> homeworld isn't cut from Space:1999. Surround the big "lie" with
> many truths, and it be easier to take in.

Yes!  That's an excellent way to put it.

Too many independent "magic items" and it all seems too disconnected.
There's no context for working out consequences or extending the
magic.  It fits together much better if you embed the magic in a
background that gives derivable consequences.  For me, current physics
is an extremely powerful and coherent tool for working out believable
consequences.  Much easier than developing a whole new alternative
physics.

It also helps as a player: with a known and consistent set of rules, I
can work out many of the consequences independently of the referee,
and get a much stronger picture of the game world.  If "HeatAway"
paint exists, has drastic effects on space combat, and yet is not
mentioned, what other unmentioned things are there to disrupt my
mental picture of the game world?


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 21:23:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug 28 20:23:09 2002
Subject: Subject: Re: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <000501c24edf$2034cd00$90225142@george>
References: <20020828132603.D5469@freeman.little-possums.net> <000501c24edf$2034cd00$90225142@george>
Message-ID: <20020829131951.G8320@freeman.little-possums.net>

Cybernaut wrote:
> I seem to recall someone talking about lasers that actually cool
> the surrounding air to a significant degree (no pun intended).

I haven't heard that, but I have heard of lasers used to cool confined
particles to low temperatures.  It works because laser radiation
inherently has very low entropy.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 21:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug 28 20:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles: canon
In-Reply-To: <B992AAF5.6B6E8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020827170014.D2997@freeman.little-possums.net> <B992AAF5.6B6E8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020829132423.H8320@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> Thus, it would seem that the Grav Vehicle (according to Holy Canon as writ
> by Mark.  Book 3 page 23.) is not the rock steady vehicle we have been led
> to believe by those on the list.

:^P  I'm a heretic anyway.  Besides, I never said it was rock-steady,
just far more stable in gusty winds than an aircraft (though worse
than a ground vehicle).  If you've ever landed an aircraft in gusty
winds, you'll appreciate the distinction ;^)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 21:33:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Aug 28 20:33:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <OF936912D5.B596CC5C-ONCA256C24.000A357F-CA256C24.000D792A@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <B992E17D.6B721%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/28/02 7:27 PM, david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au at
david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:

>>=20
>> Wouldn't this require a special grav vehicle?
>> If it's simple to go past the automatics, lots of people will
>> be doing it, including those who shouldn't.
>=20
> Depends how you play it, as a GM.  ;-)  (how's that for non-committal? Ok=
,
> Ok...)

I ended up answering my own question.  The LBBs state quite clearly that th=
e
Air/Raft (and I assume this to extend to other grav vehicle) is "extremely
subject to wind effects".  So apparently, under less than ideal conditions,
skill comes into play.
>=20
> You may say that grav vehicles within high-tech urban areas are
> automatically put on autopilot and attached to an automated
> traffic-control system. Each craft in the control zone is tracked, and if
> you break pattern (go manual) there had better be a very good reason,
> otherwise the cops will nab you.
>=20
> OTOH, you may want to take that same vehicle into the wilderness where
> there are no automatics (especially if you are a PC!  ;-). Here, you
> obviously need skill to fly the thing. Sure, you may decide that the
> vehicle has an "idiot light" approach, with certain functions automated
> (collision control, ground proximity control, automated/assisted landings=
,
> etc), but PCs being PCs, they'll want to override them. For example, they
> may want to chase someone through a narrow winding canyon, whereas the
> normal automatics won't let them enter because the proximity sensors say
> the walls are too close - or else will reduce the ride to a "safe" speed.

IMTU, the amount of control tends to vary with the Law Level, which is
influenced by the population.  At Low LL, "It's not just your [grav]car,
It's your freedom" (From an old automobile ad -- very revealing about how
Americans view their God given right to drive.)  There are little if any
controls restricting the pilot/driver.  There may be rules of the road, but
nothing built in.

On higher law level worlds, restrictive governors are used.  In cities and
other built up areas, it may actually be unlawful to operate vehicles under
human control, with traffic computers taking control whether you like it or
not (Streetwise and Electronics to disable this feature).  Human operation
may be allowed in rural areas, or special 'driving ranges'.

Note that this does not mean that automatics don't exist on low law level
worlds.  Just that they are not required and to be either installed or used=
.
>>=20
> In fact, if you are particularly clever and subtle, different worlds can
> have different approaches. Highly controlled worlds, for instance, may no=
t
> even let you use your own vehicle in urban areas. You have to rent a
> state-owned vehicle that is effectively hard-wired into the
> traffic-control system.

Exactly!

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 21:38:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 28 20:38:19 2002
Subject: [TML] General... Who?
Message-ID: <OF32C52D94.155EE5D1-ONCA256C24.0013572C-CA256C24.001398FA@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Doug wrote:
>Those in the area who want to get together for dinner or a toast to the 
>General...

Pardon my ignorance (I may have missed it on the TML) - who?

(My best guesses are: J. Andrew Keith, Heinlein, or some real-world US 
general. I am assuming _not_ the "Dukes of H" car. ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 21:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Wed Aug 28 20:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles: canon
In-Reply-To: <B992AAF5.6B6E8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020827170014.D2997@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020828233128.02594750@192.168.0.1>

At 04:29 PM 8/28/2002 -0700, Tod Glenn wrote:
>on 8/27/02 12:00 AM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:
> > Tod Glenn wrote:
> >> The real question is, if it's all automatic and easy, why is there
> >> air/raft skill?
> > Same reason there's a computer operation skill -- you still have to
> > know how to instruct the air raft to do what you want, and with more
> > advanced levels of skill be able to push beyond what the automatic
> > systems are capable of.
>
>Just be chance, while working on another project, I happened to find the
>Air/Raft description.  According to Book 3 (It doesn't get more canonical):
>"The Air/Raft can cruise at 100 kph (but is extremely subject to wind
>effects)..."
>With further notes that the GCarrier has "Performance similar to that of the
>Air/Raft".
>Thus, it would seem that the Grav Vehicle (according to Holy Canon as writ
>by Mark.  Book 3 page 23.) is not the rock steady vehicle we have been led
>to believe by those on the list.  No wonder Air/Raft skill is required.


Yes!  This is what I have in mind for Player Grav Vehicles (unless they 
think steam power is just inherently cool :-}).
Very different from the engineered to a fare thee well for use inside TL 
C-F open cities that will require separate computer & electrical skill 
rolls to override.




---------------------------------------------------------------------------
You sound reasonable ... time to up my medication
                  http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 21:47:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug 28 20:47:57 2002
Subject: [TML] Steathing Starships
In-Reply-To: <F81YILoygXLsxpTljBO00003fa3@hotmail.com>
References: <F81YILoygXLsxpTljBO00003fa3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020829133523.I8320@freeman.little-possums.net>

Patrik Holmstrm wrote:
> Following up on my own post. It should be theoretically possible to
> store large amounts of energy in for example diamond, beryllium ,
> lithium or sodium.

Yes, you should be able to get heat densities on the order of
100 GJ/dton that way.  Or to put it another way, 30 MW-hour/dton.

Of course, this is one of those things that advanced materials (a mere
engineering detail) could *drastically* improve :)

Who knows, maybe superdense has a heat capacity of 1 MJ/kg-K and a
very high boiling point?  By its name, you wouldn't want to be
carrying many dtons of it though :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 21:53:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug 28 20:53:26 2002
Subject: [TML] Steathing Starships
In-Reply-To: <F193jj0aImPiZxOASWT00003ef8@hotmail.com>
References: <F193jj0aImPiZxOASWT00003ef8@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020829134639.J8320@freeman.little-possums.net>

Patrik Holmstrm wrote:
> This is a minor nitpick (and might also be wrong) but since the
> tiles are basically made of glass they should have a rather high
> specific heat capacity (~800 J/degK/kg). The thing that hurts them
> is the low density (around 0.1) since most of the volume is air.

Yes; I was talking about heat capacity per unit volume.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 21:58:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 28 20:58:28 2002
Subject: [TML] Alternatives to terran military
Message-ID: <OF34716B97.AD1D6A54-ONCA256C24.0014251C-CA256C24.0014C0EB@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Doug wrote:
>I'm still dealing with the mental image of the sergeant sipping a bear. 
>That's one tough sergeant.

To quote Richard Stubbs, Oz comedian, trying to order a beer in LA:
Stubbsie <in Aussie accent>: "Can I get a _beer_, please?"
LA Bartender: "Wh-wh-what, wait a minute, er, you want a _BEAR_?"
Stubbsie <who, pained over accent ignorance, rolls eyes>: "Yeah, that's 
right, bunny-brain! I want a polar, my mate wants a grizzly, we'll have a 
six-pack of koalas to go!"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 22:03:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 28 21:03:38 2002
Subject: Pedal-powered AG? (was Re: [TML] Prevalence of grav   vehicles)
Message-ID: <2d.225d2bcf.2a9ef3fe@aol.com>

"Spoil-Sport" Mark Urbin writes:

>At 11:54 PM 8/27/2002 -0400, GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:
>> >>Actually, GURPS Vehicles doesn't care what form the power comes in,
>so
>> >>it's a bit of game-system abstraction.  I'm assuming that the
>> >>contragrav unit is built to accept mechanical power.
>> >I'm sorry, but that is a stretch for me.  With cheap fusion in the
>> >Imperium, I have trouble seeing a TL 9+ C/G
>> >unit designed to be easily hooked up to a windmill.
>>Not on the mass market, certainly, but you're going to find hobbyists
>of all
>>stripes in the 3I, and at least one of them will have made this 
modification,
>>if only as a variation of the "Man-Powered Flight" thing...
>
>The topic isn't TL C hobbyists, but introducing ContraGrav, and other 
>higher tech items, to low tech societies.

Fie on you, Sir!  If there is no topic wander, then this CAN'T be the TML!

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 22:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 28 21:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Alternatives to terran military
Message-ID: <OF289CB803.E7FCE98A-ONCA256C24.0014DC54-CA256C24.001561CF@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Tod wrote:
>>I'm still dealing with the mental image of the sergeant sipping a bear.
>>That's one tough sergeant.
>>Doug Grimes,
>
>Just rip the head off.  It's sooo refreshing, not to mention that it 
really
>impresses the privates.

Your... bare privates, no doubt?

(Gee, thanks _so_ much for THAT mental image! ;-)

I actually prefer keeping _my_ privates _well_ away from any bears, thank 
you!

;-)  ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Important:  This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege.  If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament.  If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 22:11:42 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Maksim-Smelchak)
Date: Wed Aug 28 21:11:42 2002
Subject: [TML] The guys that beat the Romans time and time again...
In-Reply-To: <20020829001138.32599.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPAEJAEHAA.max200@lanset.com>

The Romans may have been one of the most successful armies of all time, but
there was an army that the Romans never defeated for good. No matter how
many times the Romans beat these people, they rose and rose again, defeating
Elite Roman legions and drawing so much of the Roman Empire's resources that
these people are often credited by historians as being one of the largest
contributing causes of the fall of the Roman empire. Even when outnumbered
by the legions, these people held Rome's elite at bay for an unimaginable
amount of time and their resistence let the ancient world know that the
romans were far from invincible.

These people were the...

Jews.

Their army today in Israel doesn't follow Rome's military organization.
Their officers lead by example and from the front. Many if not most of
Rome's officers led from firmly behind their own lines. They were observers
for much of any combat they participated in. Many of them were despised by
their troops.

If you want to try something different, look to the IDF (Israeli Defence
Forces) for inspiration. Their results have certainly been spectacular so
far. It was called the Six-Day War for a reason.

Best regards,
Maksim-Smelchak.

P.S.
The Roman Army had a sense of honor, but it wasn't anything like what today
is regarded as military honor. The Roman army more often than not felt more
allegiance to their generals than to their government or the populance from
which they sprang. Orders to kill women and children weren't spurned as one
might imagine. Looting and rapine were also "perks" of the Roman army. I
think I'd prefer an army with a higher ethical standard to emulate. Troops
with good morale who believe in what they are doing are much better than
"well-fluffed" troops.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of James Ramsay
Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 5:12 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Alternatives to terran military

QUOTE
can't help with the Latin, but would point out that the Romans had a very
strict hierarchy of ranks that clearly set officers above the NCOs of the
day. Much of Western military tradition comes down from the Roman Empire.

The reasons for the strict adherence to ranks and such is control. One
person has to be responsible, and those under him have to be ready to obey
orders without hesitation. There is a reason why officers are forbidden to
socialize to closely with the enlisted men, it breaks down that wall.

The most recent example I can recall of a an attempt at a rankless army was
the Red Army after Trotsky had been purged. They tried to reduce everyone to
"leaders" and "fighters" - which worked really well when the Wehrmacht came
over the border.  The "reforms" were quickly scrapped.
END QUOTE

I was looking for a Roman feel to the language, I knew the had a fairly
strong Officer - Other ranks divide (as most competent fighting forces do).
However these mercenary forces are going to be more like tribes, that is
every one fights for the good of the company.

Alot might even have been born into that Legion, and ties between individual
troopers are strong so the smallest tactical unit is two people (everyones
in locally produced Battle dress, steampunk rulz!). There is very little
grand strategy, and battles tend often to be like pre-arranged duels (down
to bidding of forces ala mech warrior).

Units tend to select their own leaders, however those higher in the chain of
command decide who is eligible for election (there are many single combat
trials and whatnot). So troopers will fight very hard for one another (who
are often literally there family) and the Legions have a well cultivated
sense of honour.

James.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 22:16:34 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Wed Aug 28 21:16:34 2002
Subject: [TML] General... Who?
In-Reply-To: <OF32C52D94.155EE5D1-ONCA256C24.0013572C-CA256C24.001398FA@centrelink.gov.au>
Message-ID: <000201c24f10$acbf6290$0b01a8c0@duck>

> -----Original Message-----
> Dear Folks -
> 
> Doug wrote:
> >Those in the area who want to get together for dinner or a toast to the 
> >General...
> 
> Pardon my ignorance (I may have missed it on the TML) - who?

"General Turokan", the "game name" of a member of the list.  Look
for the thread "Absent Friends" in the archives.

I was going to paste in the snippet that explained it, but just
couldn't force myself to read it again.  Sorry.

Mike West

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 22:20:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed Aug 28 21:20:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles: canon
In-Reply-To: <B992AAF5.6B6E8%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020829040114.262D127B20@mail.travellercentral.com>

On 08/28/02 at 04:29 PM,  Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
said:

>"The Air/Raft can cruise at 100 kph (but is extremely subject to wind
>effects)..."

>With further notes that the GCarrier has "Performance similar to that
>of the Air/Raft".

>Thus, it would seem that the Grav Vehicle (according to Holy Canon as
>writ by Mark.  Book 3 page 23.) is not the rock steady vehicle we
>have been led to believe by those on the list.  No wonder Air/Raft
>skill is required.

Well, of course, it isn't!  Just ask Ricardo O'Brien what happens when
you lose a couple of the grav modules. <g>

IMTU, air/rafts and grav vehicles in general have several grav
modules. Even a grav belt has three small modules. IAC, if you lose
one module, you have a less stable craft, the more you lose the more
unstable it becomes.  

Flying an air/raft slowly through an atmosphere on a calm day is a
Routine task, but it gets more Difficult if it gets windy and you fly
it at top speed or evasively, and it gets down right Formidable if
someone has also shot out your port rear module.

Eris
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <erisred@telocity.com>    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
-----------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 22:24:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 28 21:24:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Alternatives to Sobriety
Message-ID: <11f.15aa4ff7.2a9ef9ea@aol.com>

In a message dated 8/28/02 8:39:17 PM, tml-request@travellercentral.com 
writes:

>Mr. Berry, our primary adherent of Pengiunism, may have stumbled on to
>a drink that is unique to the Traveller Universe. Which leads to the
>question, how does one make a _bear_?
>

Start with the proper attitude. This is a drink that follows food, climbs 
trees, and tends to hurt less if you play dead...

GC

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 22:28:51 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug 28 21:28:51 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Knowing and doing
In-Reply-To: <F198a0RQ3oPn2aygizV0001a691@hotmail.com>
References: <F198a0RQ3oPn2aygizV0001a691@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020829140334.L8320@freeman.little-possums.net>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>      The Third Imperium talks quite a bit about trade, yet,
> according to the most detailed trade model we have (GT:FT), trade is
> a relative pittance of a hi-pop/hi-tech world's GWP.  It's below 1%
> in some cases, IIRC.

Yes, this discussion does wind around a lot -- we're back to trade
volumes again :)

Unfortunately, that same model says that low-pop and/or low-tech
worlds do more trade as a proportion of GWP than the others :(


> Would the locals buy the unit anyway?  They don't understand it,
> they can't even begin to understand it, they certainly can't be
> comfortable with it, so why use it?

Look at all the people who buy cars without knowing the first thing
about how an internal combustion engine works, and don't even get me
started on computers.

And it's not even a given that they don't know how it works -- just
because they're on a TL 5 planet doesn't mean that they're ignorant.
They just don't have the infrastructure to build CG units themselves.
Or at least, not in quantity.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 22:32:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug 28 21:32:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020828210229.0202fab0@192.168.0.1>
References: <20020827202429.B3631@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020827075651.01902050@192.168.0.1> <20020828093055.A5293@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020827222235.025a2eb8@192.168.0.1> <20020828130605.B5469@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020827233228.01b99cf0@192.168.0.1> <20020828165510.I5469@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020828070243.0224ce20@192.168.0.1> <20020829084148.A7946@freeman.little-possums.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020828210229.0202fab0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <20020829135115.K8320@freeman.little-possums.net>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> You wave your hand to cover the G:Vehicles glitch and I'll wave it
> another way.  End result is the same.

Yeah, fair enough.

> Trav TL 5, according to the LLBs, 1900-1939.  Lights and at least
> strong black coffee. :-)

Whereas GURPS TL 5 is industrial revolution, pre-1900 :(


> G:Vehicles glosses over this. Power is power, regardless if it's
> from rowers or a fusion plant.

Yeah -- it is definitely a pretty big abstraction.


> The space bother me too after reading all those RFCs.  When I spoke
> with Palm Tech Support about it, they really didn't know what make
> of it.  They consider that a problem at their ISP level.  I got the
> impression no one ever questioned their header content before or
> quoted RFCs.

Very likely that no-one has :-/


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 22:36:26 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ken Murphy)
Date: Wed Aug 28 21:36:26 2002
Subject: [TML] wet navies
Message-ID: <F301sPtOXQFAmEU3b5S00022807@hotmail.com>

   A mention was made of both 2 issues of Challenge (33 and 35 maybe?), as 
well as the old JTAS article Seastrike.
   I believe that at the end of the 2nd part of the Wet Navy (a term I 
loathe, btw)ship construction article, there was mention of there being an 
Expanded (ala High Guard, etc) Career treatment for members of the Nautical 
Force.
   Well, having missed the next article all those years ago, I've got to 
ask:
   [1] Was there ever a next issue of Challenge.
   [2] Was there an Expanded Wet Navy Career as promised?
   [3] Anyone have a copy?
   Thanks, etc :)
  -Ken-


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 22:41:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Wed Aug 28 21:41:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Alternatives to Sobriety
In-Reply-To: <20020829033338.23515.42090.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentr
 al.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020828212452.00b3b0f8@mailhost.efn.org>

Leslie Bates asked:

>Mr. Berry, our primary adherent of Pengiunism, may have stumbled on to a
>drink that is unique to the Traveller Universe. Which leads to the
>question, how does one make a _bear_?

Presumably it's some variation on a _____ Russian.



--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 22:44:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Aug 28 21:44:38 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles: canon
In-Reply-To: <20020829132423.H8320@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <B992F184.6B79B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/28/02 8:24 PM, Timothy Little at tim@freeman.little-possums.net wrote:

> Tod Glenn wrote:
>> Thus, it would seem that the Grav Vehicle (according to Holy Canon as wr=
it
>> by Mark.  Book 3 page 23.) is not the rock steady vehicle we have been l=
ed
>> to believe by those on the list.
>=20
> :^P  I'm a heretic anyway.  Besides, I never said it was rock-steady,
> just far more stable in gusty winds than an aircraft (though worse
> than a ground vehicle).  If you've ever landed an aircraft in gusty
> winds, you'll appreciate the distinction ;^)

It sound to me like it's as stable as a helium balloon.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 22:48:20 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Wed Aug 28 21:48:20 2002
Subject: [TML] Starships: Melting ,or Unmelting?
References: <F96eHTgzW2hSsKAfHci00012017@hotmail.com> <20020827084027.E2374@freeman.little-possums.net> <df9omuk66e5mqrptg80dau6qie0u3kpiqk@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <3D6DA317.317F04BD@pobox.com>

JR Holmes wrote:
...
> When this matter last came up, one of the least objectionable
> suggestions was that a starship had some means of dumping heat outside
> of conventional space.  Whether this is into Jump space or some other
> Handwavium space, isn't necessary to state.  I've incorporated this
> into a function of the power plant, and a delicate one at that.  Thus,
> if power plant is damaged in combat or is malfunctioning, it starts
> "leaking" heat into the ship which will have to be disposed of by
> conventional means.

I use this handwave as well.

I guess the main reason that I don't buy into the 'melting starship' is
that it has such far-reaching consequences on ship sensors and combat. 
The fact that this thread has gone on so long is evidence of the impact.

By making the small (IMHO) assumption that heat is not such a problem, I
am able to preserve the 'feel' of space combat I developed when I first
started playing Traveller with the LBBs.

WKH

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 22:52:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Aug 28 21:52:16 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles: canon
In-Reply-To: <20020829040114.262D127B20@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B992F2E1.6B79C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/28/02 9:01 PM, Eris Reddoch at erisred@telocity.com wrote:

>=20
> IMTU, air/rafts and grav vehicles in general have several grav
> modules. Even a grav belt has three small modules.

Blasphemer!<g> The Holy writ states clearly that a Grav Belt uses "a single
null-gravity module.  Repent, ere it is too late.

Actually, a rather scary though.  Grav Belts are for the truly adventurous.
Those that find sport parachuting too tame.

> IAC, if you lose
> one module, you have a less stable craft, the more you lose the more
> unstable it becomes.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 22:56:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Wed Aug 28 21:56:11 2002
Subject: [TML] Steathing Starships
References: <F132YcEBdyFj9ZYhtBc000082e0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D6DA6C1.49559904@pobox.com>

> >From: "Matthew Bond" <mattgbond@ntlworld.com>
> >The main problem seems to be heat radiation, so couldn't we postulate >a
> >heat sink made from a substance akin to the thermal tiles used on
> >the space shuttle, only greatly improved, that can 'store' heat until such
> >time as you can radiate it away when detection no longer matters?


>From previous discussions, the problem with this is that there is no
substance we know of that can hold the amount of heat that is
necessary.  Real-world physics is pretty clear on this.

And even if there was such a substance, you would have to modify
existing ship designs to accommodate it.

It is far less disruptive to the game, IMHO, to postulate (handwave)
that the ship's power plant is able to somehow dissipate normal heat
levels.  This works, IMHO, because real-world physics has nothing to say
about the capabilities of starship power plants.

WKH

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 22:59:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 28 21:59:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Knowing and doing
Message-ID: <158.133c1198.2a9f0178@aol.com>

 >    Look at the "brain drain" all Third and Second world nations suffer.  
 >Anyone with the ability and gumption to better themselves and/or make a 
 >difference in their native culture and society doesn't stick around.

Now _that_ is a valid reason.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 23:03:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Wed Aug 28 22:03:15 2002
Subject: [TML] A TL 8 ATV
In-Reply-To: <B99247ED.6B335%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000201c24f17$75637690$6501a8c0@Darla>

At least the GAZ dosen't look like a rollover accident looking for a
place to happen...

TWB


From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 23:06:58 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Wed Aug 28 22:06:58 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Knowing and doing
Message-ID: <3D6DA69F.C057EC72@mail.cswnet.com>

Larsen writes:
<snip>> In the Third Imperium, the same mechanism is at work, along
>with a healthy comm lag.  There are no satellite dishes recieving >"Baywatch-Mora" in realtime in the cantinas on Vanejen, nothing to >stir up discontent.  

A merchant at Somem pulls out his datapad:

Reminder get tv's with vcr's and copies of "Baywatch-Mora" to sell
at Vanejen.

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 23:12:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug 28 22:12:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles: canon
In-Reply-To: <B992F184.6B79B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020829132423.H8320@freeman.little-possums.net> <B992F184.6B79B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020829145557.A8894@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> It sound to me like it's as stable as a helium balloon.

I strongly suspect that the distinctions between mass, weight, and
density weren't kept in mind when it was written.  Maybe Marc had
helium balloons in mind when he wrote it?

On the other hand, if the contragravity unit did actually reduce mass,
think of all the fun you could have... ;^)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 23:15:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Wed Aug 28 22:15:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Knowing and doing
Message-ID: <62.24eef113.2a9efd9f@aol.com>

 >>     "I find it hard to envision a human society, so lacking in ability 
and 
 >>adaptability and wealth accumulation that it cannot advance after a few 
 >>hundred years, as being capable of surviving at all.  Not even China is 
that 
 >>hidebound."
 >
 >
 >Sir,
 >
 >     Hard to envision?  Pick up any classical history text.
 >    Egypt barely progressed for millenia, yet was reasonably stable and 
 >accumulated enough wealth to leave behind some rather impressive monuments.

I should have been more specific, and said "any society in contact for 
hundreds of years with higher technology and greater levels of wealth."  
Egypt and China, near as I can figure, decided that "we're it, we're the 
best, and everyone else is barbarian."  And it was true, for thousands of 
years.  But that's not the situation presented to us in Traveller.

 >They only adopted iron implements and tools after contact with migrants and 
 >invaders forced them to do so.

Yes, and virtually every planet in the Imperium has had regular contact with 
superior technology for at least hundreds of years.  There should be some 
improvement, unless the people for generation after generation are simply 
dead to all possibility of progress -- but then they wouldn't be above tech 
level 1 in the first place if they were so constituted.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 23:19:27 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Wed Aug 28 22:19:27 2002
Subject: Subject: Re: [TML] Alternatives to terran military
References: <200208281637.NSY00890@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D6DA95E.696B00A4@pobox.com>

"John T. Kwon" wrote:
> ...One of my favorite books is a published version of someone's
> thesis on the impact of the rifle on drill, tactics, unit
> organization, etc.  It goes back to the matchlock, and walks
> you slowly (and very sleepily) up to the Civil War.

Have you read "Technology and War" by van Creveld?  If so, I'd be
interested in your opinion of it.  The thing that stuck with me the most
is how improved communication technology expanded the commander's
effective range of personal control.  I'm sure there's a ObTrav in that
somewhere.
 

> The current US thinking is that troops trained to higher and
> higher levels of technological sophistication, equipped with
> 50 kilos of gadgets, killer weapons, and animated body armor
> will require fewer soldiers to do the job.

Sounds like "Starship Troopers" to me.

WKH

From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 23:23:23 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Wed Aug 28 22:23:23 2002
Subject: [TML] A TL 8 ATV
In-Reply-To: <000201c24f17$75637690$6501a8c0@Darla>
Message-ID: <B992FAA1.6B7BF%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/28/02 9:49 PM, Thomas Barnes at twb3@charter.net wrote:

> At least the GAZ dosen't look like a rollover accident looking for a
> place to happen...

Fully amphibious too.  And looking amazingly like the Traveller APC.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Wed Aug 28 23:36:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Wed Aug 28 22:36:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Steathing Starships
References: <00c301c24e90$661f0000$7400a8c0@matt> <20020829102234.A8320@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <001d01c24f1d$e9ae10e0$7400a8c0@matt>

Timothy Little wrote:
:: Matthew Bond wrote:

<snip>

::: reducing its radiated heat for a few hours to enable it to close to
::: weapons range, running on minimal power in the mean time,
::
:: How do you close to weapons range "running on minimal power"?
:: Thrusters do not consume a trivial amount of power.  Often, thrusters
:: are the biggest power consumer.

I was thinking of situations such as running a blockade, where you are
aiming for a fixed destination and simply want to avoid detection until it
is too late to intercept you, or attacking a base or outpost with a measure
of 'surprise' rather than attempting to stealth into weapons range of a
manouvering ship.

In such circumstances it is reasonable to assume that you can arrive with a
reasonable velocity towards the general are of the target, and use only a
small amout of thrust to correct your course due to any variation in arrival
coordinates due to the distance jumped... and those distances are relatively
small compared to weapons ranges anyway, so even if your arrival position is
not optimal, it will rarely result in adding more than a few thousand km to
any combat range on arriving at the target area, and most Traveller Starship
Weapon ranges are measured in tens of thousands of km.

:: Also, a few hours is far too short.  Jump flash is detectable way
:: outside the distance achievable with a few hours of thrust.

I think I have made my feelings on 'Jump Flash' clear in the past. It
started as a bit of harmless chrome in MT's Starship Operators Manual, and
in GT has assumed proportions of detectability and information gathering
that I actively dislike. It's very existence is a handwave, as no-one can
say how Jump actually works, thus cannot describe the affect it will have
upon exit or emergence in a system. I find it easier to simply ignore it, as
that is an equally valid handwave.

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 00:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Wed Aug 28 23:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Steathing Starships
In-Reply-To: <001d01c24f1d$e9ae10e0$7400a8c0@matt>
References: <00c301c24e90$661f0000$7400a8c0@matt> <20020829102234.A8320@freeman.little-possums.net> <001d01c24f1d$e9ae10e0$7400a8c0@matt>
Message-ID: <20020829160132.B8894@freeman.little-possums.net>

Matthew Bond wrote:
> I was thinking of situations such as running a blockade, where you are
> aiming for a fixed destination and simply want to avoid detection until it
> is too late to intercept you, or attacking a base or outpost with a measure
> of 'surprise' rather than attempting to stealth into weapons range of a
> manouvering ship.

The problem is that you have to have a reasonably low speed at your
destination to do anything useful: almost certainly less than 10 hexes
per turn.

Let's say you arrive 0.1 AU out from your target to avoid detection
(without GURPS-level jump flash).  In order to get there in say 10
hours (which is more than the "few" originally posited), you need a
closing speed of 400 km/s.  To cancel that velocity on arrival wil
take you at least 2 hours of full thrust (at 6 gee).


> In such circumstances it is reasonable to assume that you can arrive
> with a reasonable velocity towards the general are of the target

You can almost certainly arrive with just about any velocity you like.

The difficulty is balancing between length of time drifting, and
length of time decelerating (and hence using *lots* of power).  That
is, assuming you don't just want to zip by your target at some insane
speed.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 01:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 29 00:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The guys that beat the Romans time and time again...
Message-ID: <19f.7c8715f.2a9f28c9@aol.com>

 >The Romans may have been one of the most successful armies of all time, but
 >there was an army that the Romans never defeated for good. No matter how
 >many times the Romans beat these people, they rose and rose again, defeating
 >Elite Roman legions and drawing so much of the Roman Empire's resources that
 >these people are often credited by historians as being one of the largest
 >contributing causes of the fall of the Roman empire. Even when outnumbered
 >by the legions, these people held Rome's elite at bay for an unimaginable
 >amount of time and their resistence let the ancient world know that the
 >romans were far from invincible.
 >
 >These people were the...
 >
 >Jews.

This one will have to be filed under "wishful thinking".

An unimaginable amount of time?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 02:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Akchizar)
Date: Thu Aug 29 01:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The defining moment in TL change
In-Reply-To: <200208271438.NQY01125@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <NFBBJPPMILPGBFNEIEOCEEFICEAA.Akchizar@SoftHome.net>

I would probably guess that a planet's TL go up when the technology becomes
at least mainstream (i.e. there is demand, the average person being able and
willing to buy it). But then that starts us on the brilliant topic of
planetary economics, and determining the 'average person'. But then again,
economics will have something to do with technology. IMTU I am trying to
build a low tech universe, everything around TL 10/9, with one or two
capitals on TL 11. This doesn't actually mean you can get a 2-Jump ship from
the capitals...just that they are starting to build prototypes.

/***************************************\
*"Never interrupt the enemy when they   *
*are in the middle of making a mistake."*
*                            --Napoleon *
\****************************************/

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of John T. Kwon
Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 2:39 AM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] The defining moment in TL change

I'd much rather have a coarse grained TL change, with much
fewer tech levels.  The change in TL would be defined by a
major leap in physics and engineering.

Some crude shops in Third World countries can make a TL 6 or
TL 7 assault rifle by hand.  From scratch.  I don't believe,
however, that these people could have invented such a thing
on their own.

I keep hearing stories that Pakistan was able to build their
nukes only after substantial Chinese help in understanding
the engineering problem.  They can probably make more now,
but can they really improve on the models they have without a
deeper understanding?

And when we go to TL 9, which IMTU means a radical change in
our ability to manipulate spacetime (jump drive, gravity
manipulation), is the underlying physics something that only
a handful of people can really understand enough to be
creative in the applied engineering of such devices?  This
sort of thing could keep people back for a long time.

How many Ramanujan-like people do we have every generation?
________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ,
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.
_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 02:21:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Thu Aug 29 01:21:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Alternatives to Sobriety
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020828201242.00ac0e70@minn.net>
Message-ID: <00a801c24fd4$10743ef0$1001a8c0@sauron>

Leslie Bates

> Which leads to the question, how does one make a _bear_?

Uh, Les, stop me if you've heard this before but, 
y'see a mummy bear and a daddy bear fall in love....

Frankie 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 02:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Thu Aug 29 01:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
Message-ID: <00ad01c24fd7$1af91690$1001a8c0@sauron>

Timothy Little wrote :
> Frankie wrote:
> > In fact, I'd say it would almost be certainly be very uneven.
> > It definiely is on modern ships.
>
> Not three-orders-of-magnitude uneven.

Why not ?

Are you really claiming that heat and other radiation leaving the
exhaust tubes of Saturn V is not at least three orders of magnitude
larger than that given off from the rest of the ship ?

> > > The energy will be spread out over the entire EM spectrum,
> > > but that's not a problem.
> >
> > Why isn't it ?
>
> Because it is not difficult to capture a very broad band of it.

I'd disagree with that, even a so-called broadband reciever only covers
a small percentage of the spectrum.

> > What of all the ships excess energy is radiated using directional
> > microwaves aimed away from the target planet?
>
> Then it will probably be picked up by all sensors that aren't at the
> planet.

With a directional broadcast it will be only be picked up by those on
the narrow arc in the direction it is transmitted, (or ones that are
really close and pick up the minor sub lobes in the pattern).

> Furthermore, such a significant departure from a black body
> means that it will have to radiate *much* more, and at higher
> temperature, than it would otherwise.

No problem. It still effectively disguises your ship.

> The more narrow-band and
> directional you make the radiation, the more energy you have to expend
> to pump it up to the higher temperatures you need.

But our problem is too much energy anyway, so that's also no problem.

> If your thrusters aren't reactionless, You can't even do that -- your
> exhaust will radiate independently and pretty much omnidirectionally.

Which means leaving a big exhaust trail with something like that and
then zipping off at a tangent on your T-Plates would be a way of
confusing the sensors.

> > How do you actually _measure_  power output ?
> >
> > This is the sticking point of this method.
>
> You collate the results from your sensors in various directions from
> the target.

Fine, no arguments there.

> You average for mean power output, look at the power
> spectrum for temperature and quite a few other things, look at
> variations with time and direction to get a good idea of other
> features of the radiation profile such as directionality.
> Getting an average power from radiated energy is just
> photocalorimetry, a well-understood science.

Well at least someone has finally come up with a candidate answer.

Now, can you explain how you use photocalorimetry to measure the power
output of a starship?

>From what I understood of photocalorimetry, it involves firing light at
substances to induce  chemical reactions and then meaasuring the
temperature change caused by the reaction using normal temperature
measurment devices such as thermocouples.

It's normally used in biology and nanotech work to determine physical
properties of substances.

I suppose you could apply this to starships, but if you can attach a
thermocouple to it, you probably don't need to detect it!

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 03:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Aug 29 02:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The guys that beat the Romans time and time again...
References: <20020829051545.26914.35363.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <003501c24f3b$13a8f5a0$2d5e8690@computer>

> From: "Maksim-Smelchak"
> The Romans may have been one of the most successful armies of all time,
> but there was an army that the Romans never defeated for good. No matter
> how many times the Romans beat these people, they rose and rose again,
> defeating Elite Roman legions and drawing so much of the Roman Empire's
> resources that these people are often credited by historians as being one
> of the largest contributing causes of the fall of the Roman empire.
...
> These people were the...
>
> Jews.

You're kidding, right?

Why not say, the Arabs, or the Visigoths, or the Picts, or just about
anybody else in or around the Roman Empire? What about the Persians, one of
whose rulers used the stuffed corpse of a Roman emperor as a step to help
him mount his horse?

The Jews were a rather minor client people, who were eventually incorporated
into a province. Their revolts were hard fought, but not especially
frequent. There is no reason at all to attribute any particular importance
to them as a factor in the fall of the Roman Empire, especially since the
largest Jewish revolts were in the 1st and 2nd centuries, when Rome was at
its peak.

Now, if you were to argue that the Jews were a major contributing factor to
the fall of the _Seleucid_ empire, I would agree with you.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com








From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 03:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Long)
Date: Thu Aug 29 02:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #1001 ?? messages
In-Reply-To: <20020827190006.8585.97445.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001001c24f3c$407d9800$3e80063e@MakaiSoft.com>

Hi all

Did anyone get digest # 1001? If so, could they please send me a copy?

Thanks, Andy

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of
> tml-request@travellercentral.com
> Sent: 27 August 2002 20:00
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: TML digest, Vol 2002 #1002 - 14 msgs
> 
> 
> Send TML mailing list submissions to
> 	tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> 	http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> 	tml-request@travellercentral.com
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> 	tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of TML digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. The defining moment in TL change (John T. Kwon)
>    2. Re: T20 Characters (Ramspite)
>    3. actual fun (MJ Dougherty)
>    4. Re: Prevalence of grav vehicles (rob@glisten.demon.co.uk)
>    5. THe TML'Starships: Melting ,or Unmelting? (Paul Walker)
>    6. THe TML's Dirty Little Secret (was: Starships: Melting 
> ,or Unmelting?) (Paul Walker)
>    7. Re: T20 Characters (Mark Urbin)
>    8. Upgrading LoTech (Matt Ashley)
>    9. Re: Prevalence of grav vehicles (Beth)
>   10. Re: Economics of Technology (Douglas R Glatz)
>   11. Re: Starships: Melting ,or Unmelting? (Douglas R Glatz)
>   12. Re: Re: Knowing and doing (Rob Davenport)
>   13. Re: THe TML's Dirty Little Secret (was: Starships: Melting
>        ,or Unmelting?) (fwd) (Rob Davenport)
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 10:38:40 -0400
> From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] The defining moment in TL change
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> I'd much rather have a coarse grained TL change, with much 
> fewer tech levels.  The change in TL would be defined by a 
> major leap in physics and engineering.
> 
> Some crude shops in Third World countries can make a TL 6 or 
> TL 7 assault rifle by hand.  From scratch.  I don't believe, 
> however, that these people could have invented such a thing 
> on their own.
> 
> I keep hearing stories that Pakistan was able to build their 
> nukes only after substantial Chinese help in understanding 
> the engineering problem.  They can probably make more now, 
> but can they really improve on the models they have without a 
> deeper understanding?
> 
> And when we go to TL 9, which IMTU means a radical change in 
> our ability to manipulate spacetime (jump drive, gravity 
> manipulation), is the underlying physics something that only 
> a handful of people can really understand enough to be 
> creative in the applied engineering of such devices?  This 
> sort of thing could keep people back for a long time.
> 
> How many Ramanujan-like people do we have every generation?
> ________________
> The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
> Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
> Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
> Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 09:52:26 -0500
> From: Ramspite <springstead@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [TML] T20 Characters
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> You should check the website, they just added the scout preview.
> 
> -Ramspite
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark Urbin" <eclipse@urbin.net>
> To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 6:55 AM
> Subject: Re: [TML] T20 Characters
> 
> 
> > At 10:52 AM 8/27/2002 +0100, Simon Brodie wrote:
> > [snippy]
> > >If someone can send me hunter's off-list e-mail, I will send the
> characters
> > >to him for putting on the website.  Or if anyone else 
> wants them, e-mail
> me
> > >off list.
> >
> > Quick question.  Are you a T20 playtester?  The only 
> character gen rules
> > that are out for Merchants.
> >
> >
> > >they are a crew of 6, 5th level characters.  Humans and 
> Vargr, Merchants
> and
> > >Scouts.  They have a decent cross-fertilization of skills 
> and feats to
> allow
> > >5 of them to operate without losing too much capability.  
> There is a Male
> > >Human noble merchant 'owner aboard', an energetic Female 
> Human Scout
> pilot,
> > >an optimistic Female Vargr Scout/Merchant Engineer, a 
> somewhat bitter and
> > >twisted Male Vargr Scout/Merchant Gunner/JOT (the lifemate of the
> engineer),
> > >a gung-ho Male Human scout gunner with a selection of 
> firearms (just to
> keep
> > >you Yanks happy :-) ) and a Male Human merchant steward 
> who is on the run
> > >from not inconsiderable gambling debts.
> >
> > 
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------
> -
> > http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
> > "Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple 
> bypass: cruising for
> > burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, 
> roadkill cooked"
> > 
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------
> -
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TML mailing list
> > TML@travellercentral.com
> > http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 3
> From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
> To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
> Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 16:03:04 +0100
> Subject: [TML] actual fun
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> 
> 
> > Don't get me wrong. I enjoy the debates, learn alot about 
> all kinds of
> > topics, and my interest in science fiction goes beyond 
> Traveller, so what
> is
> > not of use in Traveller is certainly of use to me in other 
> areas---I just
> > wonder sometimes how much actual FUN we're having when we 
> actually sit
> down
> > to play.
> >
> 
> Know what you mean, dude.
> 
> I'm (on the one hand) desperate about plausibility. On the 
> other, it's got
> to be fun.
> 
> I tend to err on the side of fun. hence certain editorial 
> decisions in T20,
> where we've kept "broken" CT concepts in because they make 
> for a fun game
> (and other reasons too.)
> 
> Martin J Dougherty
> Line Editor, Quiklink Interactive
> Dogsbody-General-to-the-Masses
> http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 4
> From: rob@glisten.demon.co.uk
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
> Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 15:52:52 +0100
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> > (using 16 kW).  51 kW early steam engine, consuming 5.1 cf 
> coal/hour.
> > 2 crew stations (pilot and stoker), 30 cf coal bunker (1500 lb).
> 
> What about a water tank? What little memory I have left is 
> failing, but I seem to recall that steam engines 
> (locomotives) would go through a roughly similar amount of 
> water as they would coal - steam locomotives carrying 
> 2500-ish gallons of water in the tender as well as coal, for example.
> 
> Rob.
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 07:58:29 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] THe TML'Starships: Melting ,or Unmelting?
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> 
> --- "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> wrote:
> > Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> > >In response to Ken Murphy at murfnmurf@hotmail.com
> > wrote:
> > 
> > "> The easiest answer to why things are the way they
> > are in the future is:
> > > *They just are*
> > > -Ken-"
> > 
> > You are of course right, Ken.  A similar argument
> > erupted over the actual
> > usefulness of the cutlass in Traveller.  The correct
> > answer is "It's
> > Traveller"  therefore marines use cutlasses.
> > 
> > >And IMTU, Laser fit in turrets, Ships are limited
> > to 6Gs of acceleration,
> > >there are no gravitic thruster plates, etc.
> > 
> > >I happen to like the idea of ships being able to
> > 'run silent', and a
> > >submarine like sudden-death hide and seek feel to
> > space combat.  Therefore,
> > >ships can power down and hide, and are difficult to
> > detect.  Captains take
> > >use their skill and experience to have a major
> > impact on the outcome of
> > >battles.  It's not just about who has the best
> > ship.
> > 
> > >It's been my experience that when you try to add
> > the real life physics, it
> > >all starts to break down.  And I have been very
> > disappointed with some of
> > >the later systems.  I haven't done any work
> > designing ships with FFS, but
> > >when designing small arms (something I know quite a
> > lot about) it becomes
> > >obvious to me that the system is badly broken.
> > 
> > >As we say, IMTU...and YMMV.
> > 
> > Some years back Microsoft came out with a Spaceship
> > Simulator. It had real
> > physics, real acceleration, and real gravity
> > effects.
> > Was it fun? It was actually, but apparrantly not fun
> > enough for the average
> > person to find a wide audience.
> > Was it more fun than X-Wing or Wing Commander? Of
> > course not.
> > These games are obviously broken in terms of
> > physics, but that shouldn't
> > lessen one's enjoyment.
> > I'm all for good hard science, as much as you can
> > use. It's not only
> > enjoyable from a "this could really happen"
> > perspective, but is an asset to
> > an individual's education.
> > I mentioned once before that I learned more about
> > science and history due to
> > a desire to make Traveller more realistic and
> > enjoyable than I ever would
> > have from mere school assignments.
> > However, as with any game, and wargamers know this
> > more than anyone, there
> > are times when realism must be sacrificed for
> > playability, and that includes
> > the "fun factor".
> > 
> > Running silent into an enemy system and maneuvering
> > for advantage is fun.
> > Standing by while the biggest ship with the biggest
> > guns win every time is
> > not.
> > 
> > Giant spiders are fun.
> > Lectures on how giant insects can not exist because
> > they don't have lungs
> > are not.
> > 
> > Trying to hammer out a replacement part for a
> > starship drive on a an Iron
> > Age forge on a backward world is fun.
> > Pointing out that worlds with iron age technology
> > are unlikely in and around
> > an old interstellar community is, while interesting
> > and probably with some
> > merit, is not really much fun.
> > 
> > Don't get me wrong. I enjoy the debates, learn alot
> > about all kinds of
> > topics, and my interest in science fiction goes
> > beyond Traveller, so what is
> > not of use in Traveller is certainly of use to me in
> > other areas---I just
> > wonder sometimes how much actual FUN we're having
> > when we actually sit down
> > to play.
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > TML mailing list
> > TML@travellercentral.com
> >
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
> http://finance.yahoo.com
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 08:21:49 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] THe TML's Dirty Little Secret (was: Starships: 
> Melting ,or Unmelting?)
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> --- "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> wrote:
> >
> > Don't get me wrong. I enjoy the debates, learn alot
> > about all kinds of
> > topics, and my interest in science fiction goes
> 
> Hah, someone finally said it out loud.  I'm not sure
> how much I differ from others, but I would suspect
> there are several of you just like me.
> 
> I play in a few Traveller games.  Whether you play or
> ref and whether it is F2F or PBEM or IRC doesn't
> matter.
> 
> Occasionally a few tidbits from the TML will find its
> way into my game.  But for the most part, MTU and my
> Refs' TUs are pretty well defined as far as game
> mechanics and physics.
> 
> But I'm still here on the TML.  And Brian brought out
> the dirty little secret about why, at least for me. 
> I'm sure there are some of you like me, so fess up so
> that I don't feel alone.
> 
> I'm here on the TML because I learn so much about so
> much.  In homeschooling, this is call the coat rack
> theory.  Find somethin the student loves (in my case
> Traveller), and us it as a coat rack to hang the coats
> (lessons) on.  So I can learn about physics,
> astrophysics, projectiles, blades (although that went
> a bit far), strategy, law, economics, military
> procedure, history, etc, etc, etc.
> 
> Thanks to all the experts, I have learned more on the
> TML than I would have on my own over the same time
> period.  And here, it's fun.  Not as fun as a game,
> but fun none the less.
> 
> Paul
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
> http://finance.yahoo.com
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 7
> DATE: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 15:35:28 +0000 (GMT)
> From: "Mark Urbin" <eclipse@urbin.net>
> To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
> Cc: <springstead@comcast.net>
> SUBJECT: Re: [TML] T20 Characters
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
> text/plain 
> --- StripMime Errors ---
> A message with no plaintext section was received.
> The entire body of the message was removed.  Please
> resend the email using plaintext formatting
> ---
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 8
> Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 08:42:44 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Matt Ashley <helvorn@yahoo.com>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] Upgrading LoTech
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> > Wanna see how a man with a higher tech base can get wealthy quick?
> > 
> 
> All of the below will work nicely until you get the whiny 
> protestors, most of whom live nicely
> priveledged lives complaining about globalization.  Or you 
> get the local kleptocrats complaining
> about "rivers of poverty" or "modern apartheid" as an excuse 
> to nationalize you or guilt you into
> sending them aid to divert to their bank accounts on Ruie.
> 
> > 1) he buys power generation equipment and operates it.  He 
> charges the 
> > locals for the benefit of having power in their homes.  His 
> high tech power 
> > generator is modest by normal standards, but is cheaper to 
> run than the low 
> > tech power generation systems on the low tech world.  He 
> does this because 
> > he earns income on the very thing he needs for his 
> factories... power.
> > 
> > 2) he buys cheap luxuries or necessities for the work force he will 
> > employ.  A simple "clinic" will dispense better medical 
> treatment to the 
> > locals than what the "local aristocrats" provide.  Even if 
> he operates it 
> > at cost - he's still making out like a bandit because he is 
> keeping his 
> > cheap labor force healthy and he's generating good will.
> > 
> > 3) due to the monopoly on higher tech gadgets and/or 
> knowledge, our budding 
> > Rockefeller or Gates, monopolizes as much as he can with the local 
> > populace.  He insinuates himself with the local society 
> such that he 
> > provides the rich and middle class of the world, with 
> things they don't 
> > provide on their own.
> > 
> > 4) the man in the mean time, has figured out, that the 
> cheaper work force 
> > expense plus the expense of shipping the product per unit, 
> is *still* 
> > cheaper than manufacturing that same item on a higher tech 
> world.  So he 
> > ships his product to the higher tech world instead of 
> manufacturing it on 
> > the higher tech world.  An example of this in today's 
> society would be the 
> > electronics manufacturing in Asia...
> > 
> > 5) now his workers are earning more than the locals are, 
> but less than what 
> > the "high tech world" workers are.  They can afford some 
> higher tech 
> > luxuries with their money.  He imports goods that he knows 
> the locals will 
> > want.  He opens stores.  He opens service providers and so 
> forth.  He even 
> > runs a local school that uplifts the poor's education 
> levels to something 
> > that is worth having.  Why?  Because by now, the 
> "businessman" realizes 
> > there is more money to be had by diversifying.  He realizes 
> that the locals 
> > want luxuries.  For a modest investment of finding a how to 
> book about the 
> > lifestyle of the high tech world some 200 years ago - he 
> learns how to 
> > manufacture primitive TV's or radios etc...  He doesn't 
> even have to do the 
> > R&D if he doesn't want to.  Or?  He uses modern luxury 
> goods produced 
> > elsewhere in the Imperium.
> > 
> > In short - human greed and human nature being what it is - 
> will ultimately 
> > make it so that someone coming in from a high tech world to 
> a lower tech 
> > world - has the opportunity to make his money.  Why are 
> western companies 
> > fighting for access to Japan or China's markets?  Because 
> there is a profit 
> > to be made.  And the more profit there is to be made, the 
> more people will 
> > fight until the profit to be made is marginal (i.e. too many 
> > competitors).  But if there are too many competitors?  
> Chances are, that 
> > world has finally reached a high tech status on its own.
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
> http://finance.yahoo.com
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 9
> From: "Beth" <shylady69@runbox.com>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles
> Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 16:08:40 GMT
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> Time to dust off the Space 1889 rules.  Replace liftwood with 
> grav modules =
> and you now have some additional adventure ideas.
> 
> Beth
> 
> > Mark Urbin wrote:
> > > I'm gonna have to to have one of these things in the back woods of
> > > Garda-Vilis somewhere.  Can you please post the stats?
> >=20
> > I've just done a rough job, I'm afraid.  Here's what I've got:
> >=20
> > Construction:
> > 350 cf light very cheap structure, with DR 5 cheap wooden "armour".
> > Fixed skids.  35 kW early TL 5 airscrew, 16000 lb TL 9 contragrav
> > (using 16 kW).  51 kW early steam engine, consuming 5.1 cf 
> coal/hour.
> > 2 crew stations (pilot and stoker), 30 cf coal bunker (1500 lb).
> > 150 cf cargo or passenger space.  Cheaply built.
> >=20
> > Statistics:
> > 12620 lb empty mass, 15560 lb loaded.  Size +4.
> > Aerial top speed 50 mph, maneuver rating 0.5 gees, 
> stability rating 1.
> > Endurance 5.9 hours, maintenance 4 hours per 280 hours of flight.
> > Cost: 2870 TL 5 credits.
> >=20
> >=20
> > Add local flavour items to taste :)
> >=20
> >=20
> > - Tim
> > _______________________________________________
> > TML mailing list
> > TML@travellercentral.com
> > http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> >=20
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 10
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Economics of Technology 
> Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 09:37:21 -0700
> From: Douglas R Glatz <douglasg@cesa.opbu.xerox.com>
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> 
> > Wanna see how a man with a higher tech base can get wealthy quick?
> > 
> > 1) he buys power generation equipment and operates it.  He 
> charges the 
> > locals for the benefit of having power in their homes.  His 
> high tech power 
> > generator is modest by normal standards, but is cheaper to 
> run than the low 
> > tech power generation systems on the low tech world.  He 
> does this because 
> > he earns income on the very thing he needs for his 
> factories... power.
> > 
> 
> Except that he is going to have to import the technicians to 
> run and maintain 
> it (at least at the start) and pay them at the level they 
> *know* they should 
> be paid at, plus bonuses for dragging them out into the 
> outback.  They, in 
> turn, will be communicating their contempt of the 'ignorant 
> savages' in their 
> dealings with the natives (or at the very least, rubbing their own 
> 'sophistication' in).  For a historical example, I draw your 
> attention to the 
> period when India was an English colony.
> 
> > 2) he buys cheap luxuries or necessities for the work force he will 
> > employ.  A simple "clinic" will dispense better medical 
> treatment to the 
> > locals than what the "local aristocrats" provide.  Even if 
> he operates it 
> > at cost - he's still making out like a bandit because he is 
> keeping his 
> > cheap labor force healthy and he's generating good will.
> > 
> Until such time as the planet's government thinks that the 
> local know-how is 
> sufficient to work the plant - and then the owner is given a 
> one-way ticket 
> off the planet and *perhaps* enough time to catch the 
> starship.  I draw your 
> attention to the nationalization of oil in the Middle East in 
> the 60's and 
> 70's.
> 
> > 3) due to the monopoly on higher tech gadgets and/or 
> knowledge, our budding 
> > Rockefeller or Gates, monopolizes as much as he can with the local 
> > populace.  He insinuates himself with the local society 
> such that he 
> > provides the rich and middle class of the world, with 
> things they don't 
> > provide on their own.
> > 
> > 4) the man in the mean time, has figured out, that the 
> cheaper work force 
> > expense plus the expense of shipping the product per unit, 
> is *still* 
> > cheaper than manufacturing that same item on a higher tech 
> world.  So he 
> > ships his product to the higher tech world instead of 
> manufacturing it on 
> > the higher tech world.  An example of this in today's 
> society would be the 
> > electronics manufacturing in Asia...
> >
> 
> And then is subjected to repeated investigations of his 
> 'sweatshop labor', 
> 'inhumane working conditions' and a host of other subjective 
> values as defined 
> by the world receiving those goods.  I draw your attention to 
> the garment 
> industry, Nike, and almost any other corporation 
> manufacturing in the Asia and 
> selling in Europe or America.  (Not that some of those investigations 
> *weren't* justified).
> 
> > 
> > 5) now his workers are earning more than the locals are, 
> but less than what 
> > the "high tech world" workers are.  They can afford some 
> higher tech 
> > luxuries with their money.  He imports goods that he knows 
> the locals will 
> > want.  He opens stores.  He opens service providers and so 
> forth.  He even 
> > runs a local school that uplifts the poor's education 
> levels to something 
> > that is worth having.  Why?  Because by now, the 
> "businessman" realizes 
> > there is more money to be had by diversifying.  He realizes 
> that the locals 
> > want luxuries.  For a modest investment of finding a how to 
> book about the 
> > lifestyle of the high tech world some 200 years ago - he 
> learns how to 
> > manufacture primitive TV's or radios etc...  He doesn't 
> even have to do the 
> > R&D if he doesn't want to.  Or?  He uses modern luxury 
> goods produced 
> > elsewhere in the Imperium.
> > 
> > In short - human greed and human nature being what it is - 
> will ultimately 
> > make it so that someone coming in from a high tech world to 
> a lower tech 
> > world - has the opportunity to make his money.  Why are 
> western companies 
> > fighting for access to Japan or China's markets?  Because 
> there is a profit 
> > to be made.  And the more profit there is to be made, the 
> more people will 
> > fight until the profit to be made is marginal (i.e. too many 
> > competitors).  But if there are too many competitors?  
> Chances are, that 
> > world has finally reached a high tech status on its own.
> > 
> 
> Recent history, alas, is full of examples of countries that, 
> on the verge of 
> prosperity, instead self-destructed into anarchy.  The very 
> forces that create 
> prosperity can concentrate wealth or power into the hands of 
> a very few. If 
> those people or institutions make themselves targets of 
> religious animosity, 
> economic desperation or cultural contempt, their very wealth 
> can make them the 
> guests of honor in a revolutionary court.
> 
> And, of course, once the industrial infrastructure has been 
> destroyed once, 
> how many investors are going to risk capital in that area again?
> 
> douglas
>  
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 11
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Starships: Melting ,or Unmelting? 
> Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 08:51:48 -0700
> From: Douglas R Glatz <douglasg@cesa.opbu.xerox.com>
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> 
> > Douglas R Glatz wrote:
> > > However, I am a big proponent of the KISS field of thought. If you
> > > have TL 14 sensors, then you probably can defeat TL 13
> > > countermeasures.  However, if the other ship has TL 15
> > > countermeasures, it's probably going to be able to defeat your
> > > sensors
> > 
> > I'd be more inclined to believe that if Traveller had larger jumps
> > between tech levels.  As it is, TTL 15 isn't really much different
> > from TTL 12.  You could probably compress TL 12-15 into GURPS TL 10,
> > and compress TTL 9-11 into GURPS TL 9.
> 
> I think it is harder and harder to predict specific advances 
> as the TLs get 
> further and further out - breaking them up by Jump Drive 
> advances is as good 
> as any marker.  Beyond that, we need to fill them ourselves.
> 
> > 
> > That brings up the other part of the problem: everyone on this list
> > seems to use different game systems.  If you like, you can 
> think of RL
> > physics as an underlying game system that more people can 
> agree on :)
> > 
> 
> You are right - there are 5 incarnations of Traveller out 
> now, and everyone 
> uses the one (or combination of them) that best fits their game and 
> imagination.  I don't object to you trying to make RL physics 
> fit the game, I 
> just don't want RL physics to *define* the game.
> 
> > 
> > > Otherwise, I really believe that the 'physics' of the 
> game will get
> > > hammered by RL technology advances, for example, computer size, as
> > > defined by CT.
> > 
> > That's why I'm focussing on physics, not engineering.
> > 
> 
> Forgive me for being obtuse, but are saying that the quantum 
> computers that 
> are being posited today were being predicted back in the 
> 70's?  How about 
> nanites or nano-tube construction?  Super-cavitation?  And 
> isn't engineering 
> ultimately physics made material?
> 
> My belief is that we (i.e. scientists working in the field, 
> not ignorant 
> grunts like me) are continuing to make progress in our collective 
> understanding of physics, and perhaps even making a few new 
> discoveries every 
> year.  I've also heard of a few who are starting to chafe 
> under Einstein's 
> theories and are trying to poke holes in them - which, if 
> true, will change a 
> lot of the basic assumptions of physics, right?
> 
> If we tie Traveller to our imagination, we will succeed in 
> making it current 
> for the foreseeable future.  If we limit it to our 
> understanding, it will be 
> stale before the ink is dry on the next ruleset.  So give me 
> my Handwavium and 
> Unobtainium (and a half way reasonable way of explaining it) 
> and let RL 
> technology fall into the categories that we've already set up 
> for it!  :)
> 
> douglas
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 12
> Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 10:23:29 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Rob Davenport <rgd@travellercentral.com>
> To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
> Subject: Re: [TML] Re: Knowing and doing
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> 
> On Tue, 27 Aug 2002, Hans Henrik Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> 
> > Tech uplifting is clearly possible. Equally clearly either 
> no one wants to
> > pay for uplifiting the TL 6 society or the TL 6 society 
> does not want to
> > be uplifted (maybe because they don't care for what it 
> would cost them in
> > the long run).
> 
> <scratches head>
> The idea that it's been hundreds of years and a world is 
> still at TL X is
> based on what?  Looking at M0 data compared to CT data?
> I've assumed that progress is probably slow - unless there's a real
> monetary impetus for a megacorp or other group of people to uplift a
> world, it'll be a gradual process that can go in fits and starts and
> falter for all the reasons that have been mentioned (cultural 
> reticence,
> nothing valuable to trade except labor, no nearby high tech partners
> etc.).  I haven't reviewed M0 data, but I'd have thought the 
> worlds would
> all have been regressed to appropriate TLs (though it's set in Core
> right?) and some degree of progress is seen between 0 and 1100.
> Is this not the case?
> 
> Rob
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 13
> Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 10:52:10 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Rob Davenport <rgd@travellercentral.com>
> To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
> Subject: Re: [TML] THe TML's Dirty Little Secret (was: 
> Starships: Melting
>  ,or Unmelting?) (fwd)
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> 
> On Tue, 27 Aug 2002, Paul Walker wrote:
> 
> > But I'm still here on the TML.  And Brian brought out
> > the dirty little secret about why, at least for me.
> > I'm sure there are some of you like me, so fess up so
> > that I don't feel alone.
> 
>   It's not a secret for me :)   I've known since high school 
> and our early
> Traveller and AD&D, et al. adventures that my interest in so 
> many subjects
> was directly related to how they could make cool and/or realistics RPG
> additions, rules, adventures, devices, plausible handwaves, etc.
>   Even things like interior decorating that might easily bore 
> me to tears
> gets a "hmmm..." when I apply the "I wonder what I could 
> learn from this
> for the game" frame of mind. All kinds of history becomes incredibly
> interesting, and even my father-in-law's books on structural 
> engineering
> and "Properties of Materials" make me feel like I've found 
> gold. (And it
> lets my wife watch HGTV or "Trading Spaces" without me making 
> the faux pas
> of falling asleep. :)  The only trade off is finding space for all the
> books about these interesting subjects.
> 
> Rob
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 
> 
> End of TML Digest
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 03:32:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Long)
Date: Thu Aug 29 02:32:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: TML digest, Vol 2002 #1001 ?? msgs
In-Reply-To: <20020827190006.8585.97445.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <001101c24f3e$d6eb32a0$3e80063e@MakaiSoft.com>

Dohh!!!!!!

Sorry guys - didn't mean to send the complete digest

(skulks away into the darkness)

Andy

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 04:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Aug 29 03:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Submarines and Battleships
In-Reply-To: <00ad01c24fd7$1af91690$1001a8c0@sauron>
References: <00ad01c24fd7$1af91690$1001a8c0@sauron>
Message-ID: <20020829203245.A9496@freeman.little-possums.net>

Frankie wrote:
> Are you really claiming that heat and other radiation leaving the
> exhaust tubes of Saturn V is not at least three orders of magnitude
> larger than that given off from the rest of the ship ?

No.  What I'm claiming is that the heat radiation at long range isn't
three orders of magnitude greater in one direction than in another.
I could care less about the close-range distribution.


> I'd disagree with that, even a so-called broadband reciever only
> covers a small percentage of the spectrum.

I'm not talking about signal transmission receivers here.  I'm talking
about pyrometers with high spatial discrimination (and low temporal
resolution) that absorb a large proportion of everything from
microwaves to near UV.


> With a directional broadcast it will be only be picked up by those
> on the narrow arc in the direction it is transmitted, (or ones that
> are really close and pick up the minor sub lobes in the pattern).

Again, it sounds like you are talking about low-entropy narrow-band
transmissions.  Not broadband high-entropy heat radiation.


> > The more narrow-band and directional you make the radiation, the
> > more energy you have to expend to pump it up to the higher
> > temperatures you need.
> 
> But our problem is too much energy anyway, so that's also no problem.

No, you're misunderstanding.  This energy is *in addition* to the
original waste heat you were having trouble with.  That is, it's
causing you more trouble still.

For example, suppose you've got 50 MW of waste heat from various
systems at 1000 K.  You need to get rid of it via 1000 m^2 of
radiators.  If you radiate it omnidirectionally, you can just run the
radiators at 1000 K.  No problem.

Now suppose you want to radiate it in a cone 20 degrees wide to have a
chance (though a pretty poor one) of avoiding enemy sensors.  That
raises the effective temperature, and now you find you need a 200 MW
power plant to run 50 MW worth of equipment.

That's assuming that both your power plant and heat pumps are
precisely 100% efficient, of course.  If they aren't, you're even
worse off.

Now try to narrow the cone further, and also narrow the bandwidth.
Soon you'll be looking at 1000+ MW of power to run 50 MW of stuff.


> Which means leaving a big exhaust trail with something like that and
> then zipping off at a tangent on your T-Plates would be a way of
> confusing the sensors.

Not at all -- once you're seen initially, high-resolution sensors will
be able to track you much more easily thereafter.  The trick is to
avoid being seen in the first place.


> From what I understood of photocalorimetry, it involves firing light
> at substances to induce chemical reactions and then meaasuring the
> temperature change caused by the reaction using normal temperature
> measurment devices such as thermocouples.

Interesting.  Its also a term used for methods of determining surface
temperatures of astronomical bodies by measuring the amount of power
they emit in heat radiation.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 04:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter L.S. Trevor)
Date: Thu Aug 29 03:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Strange feat in T20 Lite
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020828083558.02196380@mail.charter.net>
Message-ID: <000701c24f49$281a14c0$7e00a8c0@imogen>

I finally got a chance to download T20 Lite.  Sorry if  this  has
already been mentioned but I noticed a rather odd  Feat  ...  its
called "Shot on the Run" (p30).  This doesn't sound very  useful:
"Shoot on the Run" I understand, but who'd want  their  character
"Shot in the Run"?

(Also, I get errors parsing an image on p50  but  then  I'm  only
using Acrobat 5.0.)

Regards PLST




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 05:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Schwartz)
Date: Thu Aug 29 04:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Alternatives to Sobriety
In-Reply-To: <11f.15aa4ff7.2a9ef9ea@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020829071702.00a1fec0@mail.comcast.net>

At 12:15 AM 8/29/2002, you wrote:

>In a message dated 8/28/02 8:39:17 PM, tml-request@travellercentral.com
>writes:
>
> >Mr. Berry, our primary adherent of Pengiunism, may have stumbled on to
> >a drink that is unique to the Traveller Universe. Which leads to the
> >question, how does one make a _bear_?
> >
>
>Start with the proper attitude. This is a drink that follows food, climbs
>trees, and tends to hurt less if you play dead...

<delurk>

And goes with dancing.  (ie, drunk at a club were scantily/un-clad women dance.

With the words "dancing" and "bear", we have Russian Circus.

Russian -> Vodka.

So a "Bear" should have mostly Vodka.

It should be Brown also... Perhaps a bit of Coke?

<re-lurk>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 05:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 29 04:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] General... Who?
Message-ID: <004601c24f50$76cfc0e0$13000140@k62500>

Hello David D. Jaques-Watson,

General Turokan is the alias of Bari Z. Stafford, Sr., who contributed =
much to the TML, other Traveller linked forums, and kept the beacon of =
Traveller burning during the lean times. Below is a copy of the post by =
Loren Wiseman on the JTAS  General Discussion board discussing the =
Generals passing:

"Subject:    Sad News
From:       Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Date:       09:06:16, Aug 23, 2002
Message-ID: 15823
Group:      General Discussion


I received the following e-mail this morning:

*******************

Bari Z. Stafford Sr. aka: General Turokan has passed away from
Amyotropic Lateral Sclerosis (A.L.S.) aka Lou
Gherig's disease on Aug. 21, 2002 around 9:15pm.

I shall continue to host and maintain his Rim Route Project: Turokan=EDs
Expedition to the Rim on my web site.

Thank you for your time,

Clifford Linehan - cnl.rubicon@juno.com

*******************

I knew "The General" only through the TML, but his presence there will=20
be missed. He was second to none in his devotion to Traveller, and=20
persisted in spite of considerable obstacles to contribute more than=20
his fare share.=20

Loren Wiseman
  Senior Editor, JTAS
	Traveller Senior Line Editor
   lkw@io.com		http://www.lorenwiseman.com"



--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/html
---

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 05:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug 29 04:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The guys that beat the Romans time and time again...
Message-ID: <200208291139.NUK00539@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Flykiller says
>Subject: [TML] The guys that beat the Romans time and time 
again...  
>This one will have to be filed under "wishful thinking".
>
>An unimaginable amount of time?


I seem to remember something called the Diaspora.  The Romans 
eventually sacked the whole place.  It would be wishful 
thinking to believe that the sack of Jerusalem and the 
Diaspora were not defeats.

Returning to the land nearly 2000 years later and setting up 
a nation with the descendants (and in some cases, only 
adherents to the original religion) might be an admirable 
sign of incredible perserverance and patience.  The Romans 
and their society, on the other hand, just faded into the 
background.  I'm not sure if that counts as a military 
victory.
________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 05:48:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Aug 29 04:48:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Steathing Starships
In-Reply-To: <001d01c24f1d$e9ae10e0$7400a8c0@matt>
Message-ID: <3D6EB277.23345.2804C5@localhost>

On 29 Aug 2002 at 6:35, Matthew Bond wrote:

> I think I have made my feelings on 'Jump Flash' clear in the past. It
> started as a bit of harmless chrome in MT's Starship Operators Manual, and
> in GT has assumed proportions of detectability and information gathering
> that I actively dislike. It's very existence is a handwave, as no-one can
> say how Jump actually works, thus cannot describe the affect it will have
> upon exit or emergence in a system. I find it easier to simply ignore it, as
> that is an equally valid handwave.

It depends what you mean by 'jump flash'. As it is stated in numerous 
in Trav canon that a ship in jump is indetecable it clearly doesn't 
exert any sort of gravitational force on the n-space universe. Thus a 
ship's disappearance into, or emergence from, jump space is certain to 
cause some sort of gravitational perturbation which should be 
measureable. Actually pinning down the point of departure or emergence 
would be a lot harder than merely detecting the event though.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 05:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Aug 29 04:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The guys that beat the Romans time and time again...
In-Reply-To: <200208291139.NUK00539@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D6EB395.520.2C61E2@localhost>

On 29 Aug 2002 at 7:39, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Returning to the land nearly 2000 years later and setting up 
> a nation with the descendants (and in some cases, only 
> adherents to the original religion) might be an admirable 
> sign of incredible perserverance and patience.  The Romans 
> and their society, on the other hand, just faded into the 
> background.  I'm not sure if that counts as a military 
> victory.

I'm not sure that 'just faded into the background' is a very fair 
description of the continuing influence of Roman language, customs, 
etc., in today's world.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 06:03:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 29 05:03:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Loren and Mark (and the rest of us) need to keep our eyes
 peeled...
Message-ID: <935e9e9326b6.9326b6935e9e@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
Date: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 6:39 pm
Subject: [TML] Loren and Mark (and the rest of us) need to keep our eyes 
peeled...

> The Army is fond of stealing art work, as well as ideas.
> 
> http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/240/nation/MIT_s_soldier_dra
> ws_book_artists_ire+.shtml

Hey, the Army didn't steal the illustration, MIT did.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 06:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug 29 05:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Strange feat in T20 Lite
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020828083558.02196380@mail.charter.net> <000701c24f49$281a14c0$7e00a8c0@imogen>
Message-ID: <000801c24f58$fe399c60$c812bd50@martinjd>

> I finally got a chance to download T20 Lite.  Sorry if  this  has
> already been mentioned but I noticed a rather odd  Feat  ...  its
> called "Shot on the Run" (p30).  This doesn't sound very  useful:
> "Shoot on the Run" I understand, but who'd want  their  character
> "Shot in the Run"?
>
>

As in "take a shot while running", not "get shot"....

Feats that didn't get in included "Frantic Weaseling" (a Fast Talk variant),
"Gratuitous Thuggery", "Identify Patron", and "Look Mean"


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 06:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Aug 29 05:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Strange feat in T20 Lite
In-Reply-To: <000801c24f58$fe399c60$c812bd50@martinjd>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020828083558.02196380@mail.charter.net>
 <000701c24f49$281a14c0$7e00a8c0@imogen>
 <000801c24f58$fe399c60$c812bd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <20020829144751.4438c533.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Thu, 29 Aug 2002 13:38:32 +0100
MJ Dougherty <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:

> As in "take a shot while running", not "get shot"....

   _
  / |   ----
  \_|
   |                 <= ----------
 >-+-<  ----
   |
   /\
  /  \  ----
 /   /


"Taking a shot while running"

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 06:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Thu Aug 29 05:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles: canon
In-Reply-To: <20020829145557.A8894@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <20020829132423.H8320@freeman.little-possums.net>
 <B992F184.6B79B%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <20020829145557.A8894@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020829142922.6ac50331.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Thu, 29 Aug 2002 14:55:57 +1000
Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> wrote:

> On the other hand, if the contragravity unit did actually reduce mass,
> think of all the fun you could have... ;^)

Who needs an engine anyway? Just climb in and give the vehicle a push in
the right direction...

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 07:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff D. Greenly)
Date: Thu Aug 29 06:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: TML digest, Vol 2002 #1011 - 10 msgs
Message-ID: <sd6de624.025@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>

FlyKiller wrote:
>The Romans may have been one of the most successful armies of all
time, but
 >there was an army that the Romans never defeated for good. No matter
how
 >many times the Romans beat these people, they rose and rose again,
defeating
 >Elite Roman legions and drawing so much of the Roman Empire's
resources that
 >these people are often credited by historians as being one of the
largest
 >contributing causes of the fall of the Roman empire. Even when
outnumbered
 >by the legions, these people held Rome's elite at bay for an
unimaginable
 >amount of time and their resistence let the ancient world know that
the
 >romans were far from invincible.
 >
 >These people were the...
 >
 >Jews.
>
>This one will have to be filed under "wishful thinking".
>
>An unimaginable amount of time?

Read the pertinent Apochrypha and Deuterocanonical books, as well as
some of the Roman histories of the time period. Do a search for
"Maccabees". Then file under "Historical Fact"  There was a reason that
the Palestine was considered a hardship post for Romans. Some things
never %^#%^##ing change...

However, I gotta agree that "An unimaginable amount of time.." and
"these people held Rome's elite at bay..." is a bit of hyperbole,
though. Less than a hundred years, really, and more often as not, the
Romans who were there, were there because they had seriously pissed off
someone back home. 

Jeff

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 08:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Aug 29 07:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] General... Who?
Message-ID: <F1424A8xY8fupkAd48d0001b5b6@hotmail.com>

From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au

    "Pardon my ignorance (I may have missed it on the TML) - who?"


Mr. Jaques-Watson,

     Bari Stafford, aka General Turokan and Chaplain Bari.  A long time 
member and creator of the mind-boggling Rim Route, he passed away last week 
after a long struggle with ALS.
     Check last year's "Brawl at the Haul" to read the General at some of 
his best.  Clifford Linehan's site also hosts the Rim Route.
     Ever imagine what the Zho Core Expedition would look like if aimed in 
the other direction?  Well the General did more than imagine it, he mapped 
the whole thing out!  All the way to another galactic arm!


     Sincerely,
     Larsen


_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 08:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Thu Aug 29 07:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles: canon
Message-ID: <E17kQBp-0005bH-00@fifi.runbox.com>

No for the really adventurous you want sport atmospheric re-entry using the=
 "canon" grav belt with a single module.  If it fails, they don't have to w=
orry about a burial. ;)

Beth

> >=20
> > IMTU, air/rafts and grav vehicles in general have several grav
> > modules. Even a grav belt has three small modules.
>=20
> Blasphemer!<g> The Holy writ states clearly that a Grav Belt uses "a sing=
le
> null-gravity module.  Repent, ere it is too late.
>=20
> Actually, a rather scary though.  Grav Belts are for the truly adventurou=
s.
> Those that find sport parachuting too tame.
>=20
> > IAC, if you lose
> > one module, you have a less stable craft, the more you lose the more
> > unstable it becomes.
>=20

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 08:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Thu Aug 29 07:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] A Link to the General
Message-ID: <F58T6bB5Rw1SSfWXWzR00020583@hotmail.com>

Ladies and Gentlemen,

     I've been checking the website of the Stockton Record for the last 
week, waiting for a certain article to show up.
     Today it did.
     For all those interested, the URL is:

     http://www.recordnet.com/articlelink/082602/news/obituaries/shtml.

     The General's daughter, Mechelle, asked me to forward any messages 
about her father to her.  I took the liberty of sending her each message in 
the TML thread "Absent Friends".


     Sincerely,
     Bill, aka Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 08:42:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 29 07:42:10 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles: canon
Message-ID: <99824b999c26.999c2699824b@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Eris Reddoch <erisred@telocity.com>
Date: Thursday, August 29, 2002 7:01 am
Subject: Re: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles: canon

> On 08/28/02 at 04:29 PM,  Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
> said:
> 
<<snip>>
 
> >Thus, it would seem that the Grav Vehicle (according to Holy 
> Canon as
> >writ by Mark.  Book 3 page 23.) is not the rock steady vehicle we
> >have been led to believe by those on the list.  No wonder Air/Raft
> >skill is required.
> 
> Well, of course, it isn't!  Just ask Ricardo O'Brien what happens when
> you lose a couple of the grav modules. <g>

Wait a minute.  I thought that was _Richard_ O'Brien, and the castle 
took off very nicely, thank you. ;-)

http://www.thecelebritycafe.com/interviews/richard_obrien.html

<<snip>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 08:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 29 07:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Strange feat in T20 Lite
Message-ID: <153.133b1f93.2a9f9050@cs.com>

Martin J. Dougherty writes: 
> Feats that didn't get in included "Frantic Weaseling" (a Fast Talk variant),
> "Gratuitous Thuggery", "Identify Patron", and "Look Mean"

I like the "Gratuitous Thuggery" concept, but most players apply that all by 
themselves. Same with "Frantic Weaseling." Good calls.

Doug Grimes


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 09:07:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug 29 08:07:04 2002
Subject: [TML] The guys that beat the Romans time and time again...
Message-ID: <200208291505.NUQ04597@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Rupert Boleyn says
>I'm not sure that 'just faded into the background' is a very 
>fair description of the continuing influence of Roman 
>language, customs, etc., in today's world.

Which makes me wonder...  In Traveller, thousands of years 
have passed since our current time.  Even though modern 
communication would tend to homogenize and to some extent, 
preserve certain aspects of our culture, could it be said 
that the Solomani of the current time line in Traveller have 
about as much in common with our present culture as we have 
with the ancient Egyptians?  Might the "storied past" as 
viewed by Solomani be just that - archaeological exercises in 
retrieving data from ancient computers and data storage?

Is it chauvinistic to assume that major cultural aspects of 
our current time remained intact over the millienia?  Did 
religions disappear and new ones take their place over that 
time?  In Egypt today, is there a community that worships Ra?

And would our memories of already faded or assimilated 
cultures disappear in the intervening years?  Would there be 
no trace of the Inuit thousands of years from now?

And would long term structures still be there?  I don't 
expect the Brooklyn Bridge to still exist on Terra.  Would 
other places such as the Taj Mahal still exist?  Maybe the 
only thing left from the 21st century that would still exist 
in Solomani times would be the Yucca Mountain repository, if 
they didn't dig it up at some point and clean it up with 
nuclear dampers...
________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 09:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Aug 29 08:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Moonshot
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22EBA@USCHM203>

>Larsen wrote:  

>   Well, the Moon Shot wasn't the way to do it in the first place.  What 
>it's actual goal was to beat the Commies to the Moon and nothing else.  
>After we beat the other tribe, why bother anymore?

I recently read (very recently, less than 6 months ago) that Kennedy had
very little real interest in space. He did, in fact, simply want to beat the
Soviets. It was a bit disappointing for me, as I'd always imagined Kennedy
had some sort of grand vision of humaniti's future in space. Instead it was
just another political maneuver.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 09:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Thu Aug 29 08:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The guys that beat the Romans time and time again...
In-Reply-To: <200208291505.NUQ04597@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020829103633.00ac9630@minn.net>

At 11:05 AM 8/29/2002 -0400, John T. Kwon wrote:

>Which makes me wonder...  In Traveller, thousands of years 
>have passed since our current time.  Even though modern 
>communication would tend to homogenize and to some extent, 
>preserve certain aspects of our culture, could it be said 
>that the Solomani of the current time line in Traveller have 
>about as much in common with our present culture as we have 
>with the ancient Egyptians?  Might the "storied past" as 
>viewed by Solomani be just that - archaeological exercises in 
>retrieving data from ancient computers and data storage?

[snip]

>And would long term structures still be there?  I don't 
>expect the Brooklyn Bridge to still exist on Terra.  Would 
>other places such as the Taj Mahal still exist?  Maybe the 
>only thing left from the 21st century that would still exist 
>in Solomani times would be the Yucca Mountain repository, if 
>they didn't dig it up at some point and clean it up with 
>nuclear dampers...

The original Brooklyn Bridge could be sold to a real estate developer on
Prometheus or Nusku.

There are also some people who believe that the Taj Mahal was originally a
Hindu temple. See:

http://www.flex.com/%7Ejai/satyamevajayate/tejo.html

The darned thing may possibly be tied up in litigation in the 3I.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 09:38:32 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 29 08:38:32 2002
Subject: [TML] Strange feat in T20 Lite
Message-ID: <9c244e9bfd70.9bfd709c244e@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Date: Thursday, August 29, 2002 3:47 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Strange feat in T20 Lite

> On Thu, 29 Aug 2002 13:38:32 +0100
> MJ Dougherty <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > As in "take a shot while running", not "get shot"....
> 
>   _
>  / |   ----
>  \_|
>   |                 <= ----------
> >-+-<  ----
>   |
>   /\
>  /  \  ----
> /   /
> 
> 
> "Taking a shot while running"

Hmm.  My interpretation was more like this:

~sings cadence while running~

Bo Diddly, Bo Diddly, where you been?

~is handed shot of spiritous liquor, still while running, and continues 
singing~

Down on Hay Street, drinkin' gin...

~consumes the above-mentioned shot of liquor while running~



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 09:47:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Aug 29 08:47:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Starships: Melting ,or Unmelting?
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22EBC@USCHM203>

Someone mentioned the idea of powering down just prior to jump emergence and
running on batteries?
When I talked about silent running, I meant no maneuver drive use.
How much power does it require to run minimal life-support and passive
sensors while coasting?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 09:50:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu Aug 29 08:50:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles: canon
References: <B992F2E1.6B79C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D6E41DF.20708@telocity.com>


Tod Glenn wrote:

>on 8/28/02 9:01 PM, Eris Reddoch at erisred@telocity.com wrote:
>
>>IMTU, air/rafts and grav vehicles in general have several grav
>>modules. Even a grav belt has three small modules.
>>
>
>Blasphemer!<g> The Holy writ states clearly that a Grav Belt uses "a single
>null-gravity module.  Repent, ere it is too late.
>
Tod, if you've been paying attention you know it's much, much too late 
for that. <g>

There is a sport, IMTU, where a pair of wings and a single grav module 
allow the wearer to fly like a bird...or drop like a rock...*that* is 
for the truely adventurious. <g>

Eris,
    The Heretic! <g>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 09:56:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Aug 29 08:56:55 2002
Subject: [TML] The guys that beat the Romans time and time again...
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22EBD@USCHM203>

"Maksim-Smelchak" <max200@lanset.com>:

>Many if not most of
>Rome's officers led from firmly behind their own lines. They were observers
>for much of any combat they participated in. Many of them were despised by
>their troops.

I don't know about the majority, but there are plenty of documented accounts
of Gaius Marius, Julius Caesar, Scipio Africanus (and his father years
earlier), and other Roman commanders actively engaging in close combat at
times. Of course, this might have been after the battle passed beyond their
control to influence, or during a crisis when a part of the line needed
encouragement.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 10:10:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu Aug 29 09:10:09 2002
Subject: [TML] The cloak
In-Reply-To: <B9891254.6A7E9%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020829.083450.9I0.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail (2002-Aug-21) you write:

> on 8/21/02 9:22 AM, Douglas Berry at gridlore@mindspring.com wrote:
>
>> At 11:51 PM 8/21/02 +1000, you wrote:
>>> Come to think of it - how many Traveller PCs suffer from middle aged spr
> ead,
>>> or, if male, receding hairlines, and all the other stuff that makes life
>  at
>>> forty+ interesting?
>> 
>> The lawyer I played in a TNE game was suffering from male pattern
>> baldness.  I decided he wasn't vain enough to have it fixed, feeling that
>> it was natural for him to lose his hair.
>
> Don't you watch those commercials?  "Losing my hair was the most traumatic
> experience in my life."  Obviously, in the Traveller universe, people get
> out more.  I mean, it's a dangerous place where merchants routinely receive
> brawling and gun combat skills as part of their career. In a place where
> your chance of getting mugged or shot is fairly high, I guess losing your
> hair doesn't see like such a big deal.

Have you seen the recent spate of ads saying that DHT is proven to be a
major factor in male pattern baldness and offering some drug or other
that will stop the effects of DHT?

That's the first time a commercial has almost caused a keyboard kill.

You see, unless I'm *gravely* mistaken, DHT is "di-hydro-testosterone"
(or some such). 

Wonder how their sales would do if they had to put it *that* way? <g>

> Of course, at higher tech levels, fixing something like baldness is
> probably rather trivial, so retaining a bald head would be more a
> personal idiosyncrasy that anything else, akin to shaving one's head
> or dying one's hair.  But then so might 'pudginess'.

Male pattern baldness is a combination of two factors. One is having
the "wrong" genes. The other is having testosterone in your system. 

Women can have the gene and not go bald. Women who start taking
testosterone *can*, if they have the genes for it. 

Likewise, removing testosterone from the system can arrest it. 

So unless genetic level therapy is available, the likely treatments
will have "unfortunate side effects". <g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 10:15:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Aug 29 09:15:06 2002
Subject: [TML] The defining moment in TL change
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22EBF@USCHM203>

I just finished a short story by H. Beam Piper called Naudsonce (actually
read it 20+ years ago as well) about a first contact mission.
In one scene the Terrans build some wheelbarrow's and farm implements for
the natives, who have not yet discovered the wheel and use simple tools.
One character looks at the wheelbarrow. It is made of steel pipe, machined
handles, sheet metal bucket, spoked wheel...and realizes there is no way the
natives can recreate this. Nor can they recreate manufactured plows and
hoes.
It will be years before any colonists arrive. 20 years before any factories
can be geared up to mass procuce items for native conssumtion.
In the meantime, they will have to teach the natives how to make their own
wheelbarrows and tools with available materials and limited technology.
Of course, the end goal is "so that the next generation will be ready for
starships and contra-grav", so it is assumed that eventually the natives
will eventually catch up.
However, this is a Terra-norm world, desirable for colonization.
What about one not so desirable? Or with little of value to trade.
In this case the Terrans, both government and private sector, aren't going
to make the effort, and what hi-tech items do trickle in from time to time
will be rare.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 10:21:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Thu Aug 29 09:21:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles: canon
Message-ID: <F149D4S4S1JOi6hX4Uk00014e64@hotmail.com>

Sometimes I think that the author of Schlock Mercenary must be reading the 
TML.

http://www.schlockmercenary.com/

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/


_________________________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 10:24:45 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Aug 29 09:24:45 2002
Subject: [TML] Steathing Starships
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22EC0@USCHM203>

>"Matthew Bond" <mattgbond@ntlworld.com>:

>I think I have made my feelings on 'Jump Flash' clear in the past. It
>started as a bit of harmless chrome in MT's Starship Operators Manual, and
>in GT has assumed proportions of detectability and information gathering
>that I actively dislike. It's very existence is a handwave, as no-one can
>say how Jump actually works, thus cannot describe the affect it will have
>upon exit or emergence in a system. I find it easier to simply ignore it,
as
>that is an equally valid handwave.

Ditto! I never even heard of 'Jump Flash' until recently. We didn't use itin
the '70s and I'm not about to start using it now. IMTU there is no such
thing. Mybe the Ancients could detect a ship emerging from jump(all other
radiation and signature aside), but no one else can.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 10:30:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug 29 09:30:09 2002
Subject: [TML] re: The guys that beat the Romans time and time again...
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEOMCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>

[deletion]

>The Romans and their society, on the other hand, just faded into the
background.

The Italian Fascists tried to resurrect the idea of the Roman Empire only a
few years before the Zionists did much the same for the idea of Israel.

Your comment reminds me of a scene from one of the first episodes of The
Sopranos.  In contemporary New Jersey, three mafiosi of Italian descent are
beating up an Orthodox Jew to convince him to come to a settlement with his
father-in-law (who hired the mafiosi).  The mafiosi are surprised that he is
so stubborn, and tell him so.  He responds with the story of Masada, and
concludes with a comment to the effect of, we are still here, and where are
the Romans now? to which Tony Soprano replies, you're lookin' at 'em.

>From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
>
>On 29 Aug 2002 at 7:39, John T. Kwon wrote:
>
>> Returning to the land nearly 2000 years later and setting up a nation
with the descendants (and in some cases, only
>> adherents to the original religion) might be an admirable sign of
incredible perserverance and patience.  The Romans
>> and their society, on the other hand, just faded into the background.
I'm not sure if that counts as a military
>> victory.
>
>I'm not sure that 'just faded into the background' is a very fair
description of the continuing influence of Roman language, customs,
>etc., in today's world.

Rupert's point is well taken.  Most of the words in the quoted material from
John's post are derived from Latin:  Returning, nation, descendants,
adherents, original, religion, admirable, incredible, perserverance,
patience, Romans, society, faded, military, victory.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 10:37:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug 29 09:37:09 2002
Subject: [TML] re:   The guys that beat the Romans time and time again...
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEONCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
>
>Which makes me wonder...  In Traveller, thousands of years have passed
since our current time.  Even though modern
>communication would tend to homogenize and to some extent, preserve certain
aspects of our culture, could it be said
>that the Solomani of the current time line in Traveller have about as much
in common with our present culture as we have
>with the ancient Egyptians?  Might the "storied past" as viewed by Solomani
be just that - archaeological exercises in
>retrieving data from ancient computers and data storage?
>
>Is it chauvinistic to assume that major cultural aspects of our current
time remained intact over the millienia?  Did
>religions disappear and new ones take their place over that time?  In Egypt
today, is there a community that worships Ra?

I love this subject, but don't have enough time for a long reply, so I'll
drop a few bullet points:

In Egypt today, there is no community that worships Ra, but there is still a
community that worships the god of the Jews -- and that community has spread
all over the world.  Some Asian cultures are already more than 3,000 years
old, like China and India.

>And would long term structures still be there?  I don't expect the Brooklyn
Bridge to still exist on Terra.  Would
>other places such as the Taj Mahal still exist?  Maybe the only thing left
from the 21st century that would still exist
>in Solomani times would be the Yucca Mountain repository, if they didn't
dig it up at some point and clean it up with
>nuclear dampers...

I like the last thought; it's probably a museum in the Far Future.  Some
large and stable structures may survive fairly intact, as the pyramids and
Great Wall have done for millenia.  I think major -- and even minor --
cities will leave physical, as well as chemical, scars on the face of the
earth for thousands of years, even if they are abandoned.  Of course, there
is no reason to abandon the cities; to the contrary, as the population
increases, the cities will probably become larger, and our descendants will
build on the ruins of our ancestors.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 10:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug 29 09:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re:  Moonshot
Message-ID: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDGEONCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: "Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com>

>It was a bit disappointing for me, as I'd always imagined Kennedy had some
sort of grand vision of humaniti's future in space.
>Instead it was just another political maneuver.

Welcome to the world, buddy.

--Glenn


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 10:51:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Maksim-Smelchak)
Date: Thu Aug 29 09:51:09 2002
Subject: [TML] re: The guys that beat the Romans time and time again...
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEOMCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPCEKHEHAA.max200@lanset.com>

Glenn,

I wanted to wait to reply to all of the letters since i'm really enjoying
the response that this thread has been producing, but I wanted to strike
now! :)

>>> Rupert's point is well taken. Most of the words in the quoted material
from John's post are >>> derived from Latin: Returning, nation, descendants,
adherents, original, religion, admirable, >>> incredible, perserverance,
patience, Romans, society, faded, military, victory. >>>

I thought I mention that with a few exceptions, all of those Roman Latin
words, are based on Hebrew concepts and ideas! Nation among them. Roman law
also borrowed heavily (some say plagiarised) from Hebrew law and what is now
called the Judeo-Christian ethic. There are quite a few historians now
rethinking that Western culture arose from Greek and Roman sources and are
now considering the impact of the Hebrews on Western society.

>>> The Italian Fascists tried to resurrect the idea of the Roman Empire
only a few years before >>> the Zionists did much the same for the idea of
Israel. >>>

I can see some comparisons, but I think that the anology is not too apt. Why
not compare the American Revolution with the rise of Stalin? There's too few
common points for that analogy to be a good one.

You might want to share the story of Masada with other listers, Glenn. The
story of Masada shook the foundations of the Roman Empire and rebellions in
the Roman periphery expanded in great numbers after Masada.

Cheers,
Maksim-Smelchak.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Glenn M. Goffin
Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:24 AM
To: Traveller-Digest
Subject: [TML] re: The guys that beat the Romans time and time again...
>From: "John T. Kwon" <jtkwon@jtkgroup.com>
[deletion]
>The Romans and their society, on the other hand, just faded into the
background.

The Italian Fascists tried to resurrect the idea of the Roman Empire only a
few years before the Zionists did much the same for the idea of Israel.

Your comment reminds me of a scene from one of the first episodes of The
Sopranos. In contemporary New Jersey, three mafiosi of Italian descent are
beating up an Orthodox Jew to convince him to come to a settlement with his
father-in-law (who hired the mafiosi). The mafiosi are surprised that he is
so stubborn, and tell him so. He responds with the story of Masada, and
concludes with a comment to the effect of, we are still here, and where are
the Romans now? To which Tony Soprano replies, you're lookin' at 'em.

Rupert's point is well taken. Most of the words in the quoted material from
John's post are derived from Latin: Returning, nation, descendants,
adherents, original, religion, admirable, incredible, perserverance,
patience, Romans, society, faded, military, victory.

--Glenn



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 11:11:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug 29 10:11:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Strange feat in T20 Lite
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020828083558.02196380@mail.charter.net><000701c24f49$281a14c0$7e00a8c0@imogen><000801c24f58$fe399c60$c812bd50@martinjd> <20020829144751.4438c533.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <001101c24f80$b5205b40$2c0bbd50@martinjd>

>
> "Taking a shot while running"


Heh. Ever tried to inject your insulin while running for a bus? Very
advanced technique that is, but it can save a busy person an average of 19
seconds a day!


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 11:14:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Thu Aug 29 10:14:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Strange feat in T20 Lite
References: <153.133b1f93.2a9f9050@cs.com>
Message-ID: <001201c24f80$b66e8620$2c0bbd50@martinjd>

> I like the "Gratuitous Thuggery" concept, but most players apply that all
by
> themselves. Same with "Frantic Weaseling." Good calls.
>

Yup. We dropped them because they're basically a given....


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 11:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug 29 10:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Strange feat in T20 Lite
Message-ID: <200208291726.NUV00089@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

MJ Dougherty says
>Heh. Ever tried to inject your insulin while running for a 
>bus? Very advanced technique that is, but it can save a busy 
>person an average of 19 seconds a day!

The problem I have with a lot of skill resolution systems is 
their listings of common and not-so-common tasks.  It is as 
though they don't want the GM to have to make a spot decision 
(gee, injecting while running sounds difficult. are you 
holding a briefcase in the arm you're injecting into?).

My favorite task is eating a bagel and talking on the cell 
phone while driving (no hands free unit for me).  In rush 
hour traffic on the interstate in a construction zone.  Don't 
drop any of the lettuce, tomato, onion, or nova.  Don't get a 
ticket.  Don't crash.  Don't slow down.  Don't drop the 
phone.  Intermittently, put the bagel on your lap and drink 
some coffee.

Due to the extremely linear nature of most of these game 
systems, I also end up with ridiculous statistics on the 
chances of failure or success.  I've spent a lot of time 
working on something that has more of a curve to it...



________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 11:31:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Schwartz)
Date: Thu Aug 29 10:31:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Edifices in the Future
In-Reply-To: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDCEONCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020829131635.00a53580@mail.comcast.net>

>
>
> >And would long term structures still be there?  I don't expect the Brooklyn
>Bridge to still exist on Terra.  Would
> >other places such as the Taj Mahal still exist?  Maybe the only thing left
>from the 21st century that would still exist
> >in Solomani times would be the Yucca Mountain repository, if they didn't
>dig it up at some point and clean it up with
> >nuclear dampers...
>
>I like the last thought; it's probably a museum in the Far Future.  Some
>large and stable structures may survive fairly intact, as the pyramids and
>Great Wall have done for millenia.  I think major -- and even minor --
>cities will leave physical, as well as chemical, scars on the face of the
>earth for thousands of years, even if they are abandoned.  Of course, there
>is no reason to abandon the cities; to the contrary, as the population
>increases, the cities will probably become larger, and our descendants will
>build on the ruins of our ancestors.

Mount Rushmore would still be around, I woudl think. 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 11:34:48 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug 29 10:34:48 2002
Subject: [TML] Traveller PBeM
Message-ID: <B993A7AE.6B81A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

The Dark Encounters Traveller PBeM is now closed to new players.  Thanks to
all who expressed an interest.  I have contacted all those who have
expressed an interest.

If you are running a Traveller PBeM and want to advertise it, please let me
know and I will post your information at http://www.travellercentral.com

If you would like to run a Traveller PBeM on the TravellerCentral list
server, you can find more info at http://www.travellercentral.com  Just
follow the PBeM link.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 11:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug 29 10:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Strange feat in T20 Lite
In-Reply-To: <200208291726.NUV00089@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B993AA36.6B81E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/29/02 10:26 AM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> My favorite task is eating a bagel and talking on the cell
> phone while driving (no hands free unit for me).  In rush
> hour traffic on the interstate in a construction zone.  Don't
> drop any of the lettuce, tomato, onion, or nova.  Don't get a
> ticket.  Don't crash.  Don't slow down.  Don't drop the
> phone.  Intermittently, put the bagel on your lap and drink
> some coffee.

Somewhere there is a list of similar tasks.  I seem to recall something
about someone eating a sundae, smoking a cigarette and chatting on the cell
phone, all while driving.  Care to estimate the difficulty?  It's amazing
what some people do while driving.  I have watched someone using their
laptop while driving.

Going back to the grav vehicle thread, I could easily see how laws would be
passed making automatic (centralized) control of grav vehicles mandatory.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 11:43:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Fred Ramen)
Date: Thu Aug 29 10:43:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Absent Friends
Message-ID: <002b01c24f82$eb511ea0$ca2bf7a5@pctframen>

It is a tribute the the General's memory that his passing is still being
mourned more than a week later. While I never had the pleasure of
corresponding directly with Mr. Stafford, I always found his posts to be
intriguing and entertaining--and best of all, almost always
thought-provoking.

In light of his final TML accomplishment--the massive MegaTraveller-designed
fleet that was our only protection from Mr. Bates' Terran forces--I propose
that we make the Ship Design Rodeo an annual event, named in his honor: The
Bari Z. Stafford Sr. Memorial Turokan Roundup. A poor substitute for his
presence, to be sure, but it will give us all time to pause and remember his
memory.

Fred Ramen


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 11:46:47 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug 29 10:46:47 2002
Subject: [TML] Edifices in the Future
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020829131635.00a53580@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <B993AAEF.6B821%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/29/02 10:17 AM, Jeff Schwartz at jeffreyschwartz@comcast.net wrote:

>> I like the last thought; it's probably a museum in the Far Future.  Some
>> large and stable structures may survive fairly intact, as the pyramids a=
nd
>> Great Wall have done for millenia.  I think major -- and even minor --
>> cities will leave physical, as well as chemical, scars on the face of th=
e
>> earth for thousands of years, even if they are abandoned.  Of course, th=
ere
>> is no reason to abandon the cities; to the contrary, as the population
>> increases, the cities will probably become larger, and our descendants w=
ill
>> build on the ruins of our ancestors.
>=20
> Mount Rushmore would still be around, I woudl think.

Yes, but Teddy Roosevelt's nose is missing.  Legend has it that it was
knocked off by a rocket fired by a soldier in Genghis Khan's army during th=
e
Chinese conquest of North America.

(Hey, it's been 5000 years)

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 11:51:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Daniel Tackett)
Date: Thu Aug 29 10:51:05 2002
Subject: [TML] re: The guys that beat the Romans time and time again...
In-Reply-To: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPCEKHEHAA.max200@lanset.com>
Message-ID: <20020829174339.78273.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com>

In contemporary New Jersey, three mafiosi of Italian
descent 
are
beating up an Orthodox Jew to convince him to come to
a settlement with 
his
father-in-law (who hired the mafiosi). The mafiosi are
surprised that 
he is
so stubborn, and tell him so. He responds with the
story of Masada, and
concludes with a comment to the effect of, we are
still here, and where 
are
the Romans now? To which Tony Soprano replies, you're
lookin' at 'em.

To my understanding, most of the people that we now
know as Italians are descended from the Etruscans that
are native to southern Italy. The descendants of the
Romans of old are to be found in the nation of
Romania; hence the name. Any history buffs, please
correct me if I'm wrong or off a little. I'm no scholar.

=====
If there is no standard there is no truth, if there is no truth there is no law. If there is no law there is no order, if there is no order, there is only chaos.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 12:04:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug 29 11:04:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How roomy are starships?
Message-ID: <B993B014.6B827%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

It's interesting to take a look at some of the Traveller artwork out there
and note how roomy starships are inside.  Just how much open space is there
in the average merchant or military vessel?  Is it more like a passenger
liner or a submarine, IYO?

Personally, for military and cargo ships, I've always favored the submarine
feel.  Here in Portland when even have a submarine open for tours (The USS
Blueback) which is highly recommended for any Traveller who wants to
experience the feeling first hand.

For those who can't, I found that there is a virtual tour of the USS
Blueback online.  Sure, the controls are a bit primitive, but the size and
space feels about right.

Check it out at: http://www.omsi.org/visit/submarine/QTVRtour.cfm

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 12:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug 29 11:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles: canon
In-Reply-To: <B992F2E1.6B79C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B992F2E1.6B79C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m38z2pa56p.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> 
> Blasphemer!<g>  The Holy writ states clearly that a Grav Belt uses `a
> single null-gravity module.'  Repent, ere it is too late.

What's a `null-gravity module'?  Considering the possible ill effects
from a single anti-gravity device failing, might it not be the case
that _all_ `grav modules' are reall two or three modules?  E.g., I
don't believe there's such a thing as a single-cylinder engine
(although that's impossible, isn't it?).  I don't know much about
engines, though, so I'm probably wrong about that.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
It's amazing how much smarter one gets as one drinks, and how one's
singing voice improves!                              --Glenn Goffin

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 12:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug 29 11:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles: canon
Message-ID: <200208291845.NUY01967@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Robert Uhl asks
>I don't believe there's such a thing as a single-cylinder 
>engine (although that's impossible, isn't it?).  I don't 
>know much about engines, though, so I'm probably wrong about 
>that.

I've ridden a motorcycle that had a single-cylinder, four-
stroke, air-cooled engine.

Plenty of small generators like that, as well as lawn mowers, 
and your model airplanes with the Cox motors.
________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 13:01:21 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug 29 12:01:21 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles: canon
In-Reply-To: <m38z2pa56p.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <B993BD66.6B83A%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/29/02 11:30 AM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

> What's a `null-gravity module'?  Considering the possible ill effects
> from a single anti-gravity device failing, might it not be the case
> that _all_ `grav modules' are reall two or three modules?  E.g., I
> don't believe there's such a thing as a single-cylinder engine
> (although that's impossible, isn't it?).  I don't know much about
> engines, though, so I'm probably wrong about that.

There's plenty of single cylinder engines in use.  Just not in automobiles.
Motorcycles, chainsaws, lawnmowers, even aircraft (ultralights) all have
used single cylinder engines.

To me, the grav belt is more akin to a motorcycle.  Now the next question
becomes how big is a 'null-gravity' module (the term comes from LBB book 3)=
?
It may be that grav modules are large enough that using more than one in a
grav belt becomes impracticable.  Suppose the lift capacity is some functio=
n
of the module's area or volume.  While a couple might fit nicely in an
Air/Raft, a 'belt' might be another story.

Certainly, one might _assume_ all grav modules contain multiple elements,
but that's not explicitly stated in CT.  Perhaps is was intended that the
grav belt is a risky mode of transportation -- the motorcycle of it's tech
level.  I sure the safety nazis have their own idea of what a grav belt
should be:  redundant grav units, airbags, parachute, etc., etc.

Are there canonical cites to just what a grav modules is?  How it functions=
?

Does it really nullify gravity for a specific area, or just produce some
sort of 'gravitic thrust' against the pull of gravity.  It's not clear to
me.  It seems to me that what Mark intended was something that give the
vehicle neutral gravity, in the same sense that an object in water can be
said to have neutral buoyancy.  Any maneuvering is the product of outside
forces, whether these are thrusters, rockets or slave operated propellers.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 13:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug 29 12:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Stretching that engine at TL 7
Message-ID: <200208291912.NUY06078@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

We were just talking about a single cylinder engine, and I 
got to thinking about a motorcycle that uses an expended 
(past airworthiness lifetime) helicopter turbine engine.

No transmission needed - but a rearward facing camera and a 
color display so you don't have to turn or lift your head 
while at speed.

www.marineturbine.com has a y2k superbike.

a slightly different article at:

http://www.customwebcreations.co.za/thebikezone/latest_launche
s/y2ksb/24-05-2001.htm

I'm almost considering a popular sport on Vilis - ground 
cycle racing.  Not the type done on Terra so long ago.  
Something with elevated track sections, tunnels, loops that 
must be taken above certain speeds, etc.  And a 400-500 kph 
gas turbine cycle.  Cameras on all bikes, so that viewers can 
experience the whole thing in Tri-D at home.

The race is for 1000km, and competitors are in teams of six.  
The average speed of the surviving members of the team is the 
score, with highest average as the winner.

Just taking advantage of the extensive real estate between 
the arcologies...
________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 13:16:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Thu Aug 29 12:16:44 2002
Subject: [TML] How roomy are starships?
Message-ID: <5D4EA4C196F27046B1E79E281B4CE4343DA747@SVLEXC04.hq.netapp.com>

 
> It's interesting to take a look at some of the Traveller 
> artwork out there
> and note how roomy starships are inside.  Just how much open 
> space is there
> in the average merchant or military vessel?  Is it more like 
> a passenger
> liner or a submarine, IYO?

That's because all the previous artwork for Traveller (deckplans & such) HAS NOT taken into account the available space for the actual geometric volume of the ship :)  If I modeled a Type S with the volume listed given by FF&S2, it'd be significantly smaller than the size given by the deckplans.  In fact, I think I'll do just that and post the results!  Stay tuned ;)

<snip the rest of Tod's post>

Jesse

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 13:26:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Thu Aug 29 12:26:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles: canon
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22EC3@USCHM203>

ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)wrote:

>I don't believe there's such a thing as a single-cylinder engine
>(although that's impossible, isn't it?).  I don't know much about
>engines, though, so I'm probably wrong about that.

If there is or ever was such a one-cylinder engine, you can bet that it
appeared in one of those silly little go-carts, probably with 3 wheels, that
our friends across the pond actually classify as automobiles.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 13:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Schwartz)
Date: Thu Aug 29 12:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Edifices in the Future
In-Reply-To: <B993AAEF.6B821%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <5.1.1.6.0.20020829131635.00a53580@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020829152011.00a5c010@mail.comcast.net>

At 01:41 PM 8/29/2002, you wrote:
>on 8/29/02 10:17 AM, Jeff Schwartz at jeffreyschwartz@comcast.net wrote:
>
> >> I like the last thought; it's probably a museum in the Far Future.  Some
> >> large and stable structures may survive fairly intact, as the pyramids and
> >> Great Wall have done for millenia.  I think major -- and even minor --
> >> cities will leave physical, as well as chemical, scars on the face of the
> >> earth for thousands of years, even if they are abandoned.  Of course, 
> there
> >> is no reason to abandon the cities; to the contrary, as the population
> >> increases, the cities will probably become larger, and our descendants 
> will
> >> build on the ruins of our ancestors.
> >
> > Mount Rushmore would still be around, I woudl think.
>
>Yes, but Teddy Roosevelt's nose is missing.  Legend has it that it was
>knocked off by a rocket fired by a soldier in Genghis Khan's army during the
>Chinese conquest of North America.
>
>(Hey, it's been 5000 years)


Historical footnote: Soon after firing the rocket, the soldier in question 
was killed by a partisan using a wooden club....


(Yep.. the guy walked softly, and whacked him with a big stick.)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 14:08:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff D. Greenly)
Date: Thu Aug 29 13:08:05 2002
Subject: [TML] The Bari Z. Stafford Sr. Memorial Turokan Roundup
Message-ID: <sd6e4699.012@GWIA.HSC.WVU.EDU>

Fred Ramen wrote:

"In light of his final TML accomplishment--the massive
MegaTraveller-designed
fleet that was our only protection from Mr. Bates' Terran forces--I
propose
that we make the Ship Design Rodeo an annual event, named in his honor:
The
Bari Z. Stafford Sr. Memorial Turokan Roundup. A poor substitute for
his
presence, to be sure, but it will give us all time to pause and
remember his
memory."


Damned if that isn't a fabulous idea, Fred!  I've been working in my
copious spare time (fnord) on compiling the first TML Great Unboring
Ship Rodeo posts into a nice format for distribution to everyone, and I
think it's gonna get a small name change, if that's cool with Larsen, et
al. 

The 2002 edition of the Bari Z. Stafford, Sr. Memorial Unboring Ship
Rodeo Roundup Yearbook. I like the ring of that. 

i'll post it on my website when it's all ready to go, in PDF, TXT and
RTF formats for your viewing enjoyment.

BTW, anyone wishing to submit renderings, deckplans, histories, etc.
for their Rodeo entries this year should send them ASAP to
jgreenly@hsc.wvu.edu  I'll include everything I get, with minimal
font adustment and editing. Thanks!

Jeff

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 14:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Aug 29 13:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] A Link to the General
References: <F58T6bB5Rw1SSfWXWzR00020583@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D6E8139.6090506@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> Ladies and Gentlemen,
> 
>     I've been checking the website of the Stockton Record for the last 
> week, waiting for a certain article to show up.
>     Today it did.
>     For all those interested, the URL is:
> 
>     http://www.recordnet.com/articlelink/082602/news/obituaries/shtml.

Mr Larsen seems to have been afficted by the typo gremlin that usually 
harasses me.

that last '/' is a '.'

<http://www.recordnet.com/articlelink/082602/news/obituaries.shtml>

(I sent a message out earlier this week, to the entire College asking 
for replies and included a mailto: address to someone named 'johsnon' ...:-(


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 14:22:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug 29 13:22:04 2002
Subject: [TML] A Link to the General
In-Reply-To: <F58T6bB5Rw1SSfWXWzR00020583@hotmail.com>
References: <F58T6bB5Rw1SSfWXWzR00020583@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <m34rdda03u.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>      For all those interested, the URL is:

http://www.recordnet.com/articlelink/082602/news/obituaries.shtml#1

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Teach a man to make fire; he will be warm for a day.  Set a man on fire;
he will be warm for the rest of his life.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 14:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Aug 29 13:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: The guys that beat the Romans time and time again...
In-Reply-To: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPCEKHEHAA.max200@lanset.com>
References: <MABBKCEOJNHKAJKBINPDOEOMCEAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3D6F2DD7.16044.1D7546@localhost>

On 29 Aug 2002 at 9:41, Maksim-Smelchak wrote:

> I thought I mention that with a few exceptions, all of those Roman
> Latin words, are based on Hebrew concepts and ideas! Nation among
> them. Roman law also borrowed heavily (some say plagiarised) from
> Hebrew law and what is now called the Judeo-Christian ethic. There
> are quite a few historians now rethinking that Western culture arose
> from Greek and Roman sources and are now considering the impact of
> the Hebrews on Western society. 

Care to give some concrete examples? Roman law's foundations and 
fundamental concepts were already in place before they had a grest deal 
of contact with Judea.

> You might want to share the story of Masada with other listers,
> Glenn. The story of Masada shook the foundations of the Roman Empire
> and rebellions in the Roman periphery expanded in great numbers after
> Masada. 

Examples? I don't recall a sudden huge number of revolts by subject 
peoples after that. In fact IIRC it was a fairly peaceful period in 
Roman history.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 14:38:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Aug 29 13:38:10 2002
Subject: [TML] The guys that beat the Romans time and time again...
References: <3.0.6.32.20020829103633.00ac9630@minn.net>
Message-ID: <3D6E85B3.9030206@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Leslie Bates wrote:

> The original Brooklyn Bridge could be sold to a real estate developer on
> Prometheus or Nusku.

LOL

I remember an old cyberpunk-ish short story about a guy brokering the 
sale of the Brooklyn Bridge for some massively rich Japanese industrialist.

Much of the subtext was the broker trying not to laugh at the guy while 
selling him the Brooklyn Bridge.

The punchline was the gift that the businessman gave him on completion 
of the deal: a perfectly molded brick, made of real gold.

Perhaps in one of the Dangerous Visions anthologies?? New Worlds 
anthologies?

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 14:42:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Thu Aug 29 13:42:09 2002
Subject: [TML] re: The guys that beat the Romans time and time again...
In-Reply-To: <20020829174339.78273.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPCEKHEHAA.max200@lanset.com>
Message-ID: <3D6F2F01.5194.21FE65@localhost>

On 29 Aug 2002 at 10:43, Daniel Tackett wrote:

> To my understanding, most of the people that we now
> know as Italians are descended from the Etruscans that
> are native to southern Italy. The descendants of the
> Romans of old are to be found in the nation of
> Romania; hence the name. Any history buffs, please
> correct me if I'm wrong or off a little. I'm no scholar.

Nope. The Etruscans lived on the North-west coast of Italy (Tuscany), 
and were gone as a discret people by the time the Republic became the 
Empire (not that it ever officially did - the Romans continued to call 
their state 'the Republic' up until it fell). As for Romania - their 
language is related to Latin (I think), and Romania was part of the 
Roman empire, but the people who lived their didn't include many 'real' 
Romans from Rome. Like Britian it was a province of the Roman empire.


-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 14:50:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Maksim-Smelchak)
Date: Thu Aug 29 13:50:03 2002
Subject: [TML] re: The guys that beat the Romans time and time again...
In-Reply-To: <3D6F2DD7.16044.1D7546@localhost>
Message-ID: <MABBINCKOGCHAHPBKFHPOEKPEHAA.max200@lanset.com>

I'd be happy to do so, Rupert.

I'm heading out the door now, but I'll get more in a few days.

Best regards,
Maksim-Smelchak.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Rupert Boleyn
Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 1:33 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: RE: [TML] re: The guys that beat the Romans time and time again...
On 29 Aug 2002 at 9:41, Maksim-Smelchak wrote:
> I thought I mention that with a few exceptions, all of those Roman
> Latin words, are based on Hebrew concepts and ideas! Nation among
> them. Roman law also borrowed heavily (some say plagiarised) from
> Hebrew law and what is now called the Judeo-Christian ethic. There
> are quite a few historians now rethinking that Western culture arose
> from Greek and Roman sources and are now considering the impact of
> the Hebrews on Western society.

Care to give some concrete examples? Roman law's foundations and fundamental
concepts were already in place before they had a great deal of contact with
Judea.

> You might want to share the story of Masada with other listers,
> Glenn. The story of Masada shook the foundations of the Roman Empire
> and rebellions in the Roman periphery expanded in great numbers after
> Masada.

Examples? I don't recall a sudden huge number of revolts by subject peoples
after that. In fact IIRC it was a fairly peaceful period in Roman history.

--
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 14:54:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Aug 29 13:54:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Stretching that engine at TL 7
References: <200208291912.NUY06078@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D6E890A.5040006@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> We were just talking about a single cylinder engine, and I 
> got to thinking about a motorcycle that uses an expended 
> (past airworthiness lifetime) helicopter turbine engine.
> 
> No transmission needed - but a rearward facing camera and a 
> color display so you don't have to turn or lift your head 
> while at speed.
> 
> www.marineturbine.com has a y2k superbike.
> 
> a slightly different article at:
> 
> http://www.customwebcreations.co.za/thebikezone/latest_launche
> s/y2ksb/24-05-2001.htm
> 

WOW!!! Zero to Organ Donor in 2.3 seconds!!

0-227 mph in 15 sec.

You sure this isn't a Famille Spofulam front???

This sounds JUST like one of those twisted designs Roderick Elliot would 
dream up...Vargr bikers with anime-punk hair-dos...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 14:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Aug 29 13:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles: canon
References: <20020829040114.262D127B20@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D6E8ADD.7030202@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> Flying an air/raft slowly through an atmosphere on a calm day is a
> Routine task, but it gets more Difficult if it gets windy and you fly
> it at top speed or evasively, and it gets down right Formidable if
> someone has also shot out your port rear module.

Or blown up your left front with a pipe bomb, or have a tornado shove a 
tree branch through a rear one, or any of the other "Fun Ways To Die 
Messily" you keep dreaming up! :-P

Yah know, after you've done it and *lived* a couple of times, it gets 
easier...Ricardo ought to have that Formidable thing down to merely 
Difficult by now...

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 15:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Aug 29 14:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles: canon
References: <99824b999c26.999c2699824b@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <3D6E8C8E.60907@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

john.groth@us.army.mil wrote:

> Wait a minute.  I thought that was _Richard_ O'Brien, and the castle 
> took off very nicely, thank you. ;-)
> 
> http://www.thecelebritycafe.com/interviews/richard_obrien.html

Naaah, Eris was trying to draw me out of my work-induced haze...Ricardo 
O'Brien is my characters name in his highly heretical Akus Moby PBEM, 
and is either a helluva pilot (he keeps flying out of problems no one 
should live through) or the worst in the Universe (he is, after all, 
flying *in* to those situations too. ;-)

For the record:

The bomb was not my fault, it was put there before I even knew the grav 
car existed.

Getting shot by the bad guys was not my fault, I was evading as best I 
could, and they did miss most of the time. Not bad for being ins 
osmething that was out-gunned and out-legged. Ships boats don't 
generally stand up well to starship weapons.

The tornado, well, that was sort of my fault, I DID see it coming, but I 
wasn't going to leave anyone behind.

And we did all walk away from each one of these landings. (Well, except 
for the people who were unconsious, or non-ambulatory...)

But we're feeling muuuuch better now!

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 15:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jon Zeigler)
Date: Thu Aug 29 14:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Military budgets
Message-ID: <58900.144.51.73.129.1030650076.squirrel@webmail.raba.com>

Quick request:

Can someone who has immediate access to STRIKER remind me of what
the rules say about military budgets? Specifically, how much of a
world's GDP is typically directed to the military, and how much of
that is usually spent on ground forces as opposed to naval forces?

Thanks.

----------
Jon F. Zeigler
Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
jon@sjgames.com
"The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 15:20:53 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Aug 29 14:20:53 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Knowing and doing
References: <F8eykwLS4xlGVfuTeC100004c7e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D6E8F26.300@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>     If the business climate over the border is so favorable why didn't 
> the Mexicans themselves build the factories?  Why did they have to wait 
> for outsiders to do it?  The petro-boom of the 70's and 80's gave them 
> the capital and they're not stupid, so why didn't it happen until 
> outsiders did it?
>     The answer is simple; culture.


Yeah, their backward, peasant culture.

Well, their culture and Mexican laws that were only passed later to 
encourage such development near the border.

Actually, their culture and the mexican laws and NAFTA, which removed 
much ot the import/export duties that hindered such trade before.

Well, there is their culture, the Mexican laws, NAFTA, and the 
investment by power companies to beef up the infrastructure in what had 
been historically largely rural, ranching industry parts of Mexico.

Umm, yeah, their culture, NAFTA, Mexican laws, infrastructure and water 
agreements reached with the Americans allowing more water going to 
Mexico to support the growth on the border.

Had a Mexican National built such a factory in the 70's he still 
wouldn't have been able to sell his product to GM-USA at the time, so 
what was the use?

GM got their subassemblies right here in the US, why go to Mexico and 
all those hassles...

NONE of this really took off until NAFTA passed, which was *HARDLY* a 
cultural thing.

The business climate WASN'T favorable, in other words.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 15:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Thu Aug 29 14:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: deckplans -- 200 ton merchant transport vessel
Message-ID: <F277GOEfai5qX9R9Z9E0000553c@hotmail.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
>A really great merchant transport vessel.

"Really great"?  Methinks you should leave such
descriptions to others. ;-)

>http://members.aol.com/exog/myhomepage/mcg2.html

Not bad, I like the attention to details like multiple
access to spaces, fire-fighting points and such.  I think
that the US Space Shuttle has plans for venting the
compartment to space for fighting major fires - would
vacuum be more hazardous to people than halon?
And what are the spaces marked 'g' again?  Apologies
if you answered this already, I may have missed it
in the digest.

No crew available for the second turret - that's OK,
the canonical Free Trader does the same, captains
who need to add a full-time gunner simply displace
a passenger.  You could also use the "fixed weapons"
variant in the Solomani supplement - IIRC, the weapons
would be fixed forward, the Pilot could fire them at
a -1 die roll modification.

You might want to think about relocating the forward
turret to a dorsal location - that would allow a
forward cargo loading ramp, allowing the ship to
be loaded/unloaded from four directions instead of
three.

Are any of those sliding doors intended
to act as a cargo airlock?  Relocate the aft turret
(dorsal or ventral) and you could use the flush aft
end of the ship as a way to mate with a space
station.  If so, the aft cargo area would be a
good place to partition off as a cargo lock...and
the cargo lock is a good place for an emergency
escape hatch (which you have in that aft passenger
stateroom) to pop out in.

Map scale isn't indicated - is that forward upper-deck
corridor 1.5m wide?

Those forward fuel nacelles could be located off
the upper deck instead of the lower - it looks like
they're taking up footprint space around the nose,
cargo ops might be easier without having to go
around them.  Or are there a couple of landing
legs inside them?  What kind of landing gear
are you envisioning?

Does this ship have onboard fuel treatment, or is
it intended for work in more civilized areas?

Again the same design for multiple tech levels, but
it strikes me that you may not be allowing for the
higher fuel requirements of a power-plant 3 over a
power-plant 2 - yes, a TL 9-12 PP2 fits in the same
space as a TL 13-14 PP3, but the PP3 is going to need
150% as much fuel.

Even considering your heretical treatment of Traveller's
canonically huge starship computers, would you like to
join the Deckplans webring?  If you could designate a
web page that points to all your designs for linking to
the ring, I think your plans would fit in.  Here's the
URL if you'd like to look it over:

http://x.webring.com/hub?ring=deckring

We're up to 21 sites, quite a range of starship
dekplans available.  I've got another starship
done on paper, I'm just looking for the best
way to convert all 3000 dtns of it to HTML...

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world&#8217;s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 15:31:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Aug 29 14:31:07 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Prevalence of grav vehicles
References: <E17jVbt-0006fB-00@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> <3D6B505D.7000702@usisp.com>
Message-ID: <3D6E9202.1040503@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

richard honeycutt wrote:

>    As I recall, shady shennanagins with computers really took off when 
> computers became networked.
> Without networks, if you wrote a virus or something, you could only 
> infect your own machine.
> I agree that networks are fault tolerant, but aren't the individual 
> machines within that network
> more vulnerable to attack from many more sources? 

Only if they're not made secure.

This is an ongoing problem.

One of the main reasons Windows has had such security problems is that 
in a real sense it derives from the time you spoke of, when computers 
were islands unto themselves: one user per computer* (And note...this 
was the Permian age of computer viruses, with heavily armor-plated 
floppy disk boot-sector viruses slowly plodding their way through the 
world.)

Then this security model was tossed into the network. No wonder the 
small egg-stealing mammals of Outpuke viruses spread like wildfire.

OS'es designed to be multi-user or networked from the beginning, like 
Unix, have a much more robust security model to start with.

(not that Unix is perfectly secure by any stretch of the imagination, 
but it's problems are different from a user opening an Em-ail and 
unleashing a program that eats the corporate Exchange Mail server in 3.5 
milliseconds.)

*(Note the classic Mac OS is like this too, it's just a lot easier to 
find Windows hosts to pass your viruses and trojans along to. Also, 
Apple never introduced an E-mail client that automatically executed 
attached code by default when an e-mail was opened...

I have an old Mac that sits under my desk serving out web pages for 
months on end, no reboots, and no way to attack it, short of breaking 
into my office, attaching a monitor to it and going in on the console.)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 15:45:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Thu Aug 29 14:45:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Someone else having a go at the Scout/Courier
Message-ID: <F2891jYhAOylhgnFZS40000da30@hotmail.com>

This was posted to the Deckplans mailing list recently,
and I thought people here might want a look at it,
it's a fine-looking starship.

http://www.scifi-meshes.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1067

The artist intends to follow with deckplans, cutaways,
and other renderings...I'm looking forward to it.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 15:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Aug 29 14:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Starships: Melting ,or Unmelting?
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22EBC@USCHM203>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22EBC@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <20020830075608.A11124@freeman.little-possums.net>

Hurrel, Brian wrote:
> How much power does it require to run minimal life-support and
> passive sensors while coasting?

According to GURPS Vehicles, on the order of a kilowatt per person for
life support, and a negligible amount for passive sensors.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 16:01:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dave Strebe)
Date: Thu Aug 29 15:01:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Someone else having a go at the Scout/Courier
References: <F2891jYhAOylhgnFZS40000da30@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <02Aug29.152311pdt.119204@gw.city.vancouver.bc.ca>

Kewl

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 2:44 PM
Subject: [TML] Someone else having a go at the Scout/Courier


> This was posted to the Deckplans mailing list recently,
> and I thought people here might want a look at it,
> it's a fine-looking starship.
> 
> http://www.scifi-meshes.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1067
> 
> The artist intends to follow with deckplans, cutaways,
> and other renderings...I'm looking forward to it.
> 
> Walt Smith
> Firelock on DALNet
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 16:04:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Aug 29 15:04:55 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles: canon
In-Reply-To: <20020829142922.6ac50331.jenry023@student.liu.se>
References: <20020829132423.H8320@freeman.little-possums.net> <B992F184.6B79B%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <20020829145557.A8894@freeman.little-possums.net> <20020829142922.6ac50331.jenry023@student.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20020830075949.B11124@freeman.little-possums.net>

Jens Rydholm wrote:
> Who needs an engine anyway? Just climb in and give the vehicle a
> push in the right direction...

One of my crazy ideas for a contragrav vehicle used wheels for
propulsion.  You would accelerate on the ground, then lift into the
air until your speed dropped too much through drag, or you wanted to
turn.  Then drop back to the ground again, and repeat.

Not very practical :)


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 16:10:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug 29 15:10:06 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Absent Friends
In-Reply-To: <002b01c24f82$eb511ea0$ca2bf7a5@pctframen>
References: <002b01c24f82$eb511ea0$ca2bf7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <m3adn58go4.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Fred Ramen" <von_rammen@msn.com> writes:
> 
> In light of his final TML accomplishment--the massive
> MegaTraveller-designed fleet that was our only protection from
> Mr. Bates' Terran forces--I propose that we make the Ship Design
> Rodeo an annual event, named in his honor: The Bari Z. Stafford
> Sr. Memorial Turokan Roundup.  A poor substitute for his presence,
> to be sure, but it will give us all time to pause and remember his
> memory.

Seconded.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
By the time an Average American reaches 70, he'll have eaten 880
chickens, 14 beef cattle, 23 hogs, 35 turkeys, 12 sheep, 770 pounds of
fish, and a breathmint.                      --MacMillan Book of Facts

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 16:18:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu Aug 29 15:18:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: The guys that beat the Romans time and time again...
Message-ID: <MABBLAJLBBICADDMBGLKOECMCAAA.gmgoffin@earthlink.net>

>From: Daniel Tackett <haegen2001@yahoo.com>

>To my understanding, most of the people that we now
>know as Italians are descended from the Etruscans that
>are native to southern Italy. The descendants of the
>Romans of old are to be found in the nation of
>Romania; hence the name. Any history buffs, please
>correct me if I'm wrong or off a little. I'm no scholar.

Your last two sentences reveal quite a talent for understatement.

The Etruscans lived on the west coast of the Italian peninsula, north of
Rome.  Their civilization flourished and declined long before the Roman
Empire.

Romania was founded by colonists from Rome, but the seat of the Roman Empire
was Rome. The Italians constitute the bulk of the descendants of Ancient
Rome.

--Glenn



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 16:22:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dave Strebe)
Date: Thu Aug 29 15:22:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Someone else having a go at the Scout/Courier
References: <F2891jYhAOylhgnFZS40000da30@hotmail.com> <02Aug29.152311pdt.119204@gw.city.vancouver.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <02Aug29.154349pdt.119107@gw.city.vancouver.bc.ca>

Just as an aside there is 13 pages with some very good cutaways.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dave Strebe" <strebe@intergate.ca>
To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 3:03 PM
Subject: Re: [TML] Someone else having a go at the Scout/Courier


> Kewl
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com>
> To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
> Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 2:44 PM
> Subject: [TML] Someone else having a go at the Scout/Courier
> 
> 
> > This was posted to the Deckplans mailing list recently,
> > and I thought people here might want a look at it,
> > it's a fine-looking starship.
> > 
> > http://www.scifi-meshes.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1067
> > 
> > The artist intends to follow with deckplans, cutaways,
> > and other renderings...I'm looking forward to it.
> > 
> > Walt Smith
> > Firelock on DALNet
> > 
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > TML mailing list
> > TML@travellercentral.com
> > http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 17:02:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug 29 16:02:03 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
Message-ID: <B993F5EB.6B909%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

The subject says it all.  Can someone clarify what is meant by a ton of
cargo.  It seems that in terms of ship design, x tons of cargo space is
really the dtons in volume.  How does that relate to actual mass.

For example, suppose a ship has 100 dtons of cargo space.  Filling the carg=
o
space with melon is not the same as filling it with advanced metal alloy
ingots.  The latter is obviously much more massive.  And the total mass of
the ship effects it's acceleration (a =3D F/m).

In any case, I'm trying to determine what a 1-ton cargo container would loo=
k
like.  Dimensions, total mass (or mass limit).  Any thoughts?


--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 17:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Thu Aug 29 16:19:02 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
In-Reply-To: <B993F5EB.6B909%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B993F5EB.6B909%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020830091811.A11375@freeman.little-possums.net>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> The subject says it all.  Can someone clarify what is meant by a ton of
> cargo.  It seems that in terms of ship design, x tons of cargo space is
> really the dtons in volume.  How does that relate to actual mass.

That depends upon what the cargo is.  A rough average might be 5
tonnes mass (from memory, I think that's what GURPS assumes).  Liquid
cargo will almost always be more massive, fragile cargo might be
packed with styrofoam or equivalent, and hence be less massive.

Particularly dense cargoes are assumed to require extra space for
bracing and to spread the load over the deck.  (I'm not quite sure
why, considering that artificial gravity and contragravity are common)


> In any case, I'm trying to determine what a 1-ton cargo container
> would look like.  Dimensions, total mass (or mass limit).  Any
> thoughts?

In a number of Traveller illustrations, cargo containers seem to be
hexagonal prisms.  However, I'm not so sure that such a shape is
particularly easy to handle.  GT:FT has containers much like
real-world shipping containers: oblong boxes of standardized
dimensions, with various designs for different cargo requirements.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 17:24:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug 29 16:24:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Someone else having a go at the Scout/Courier
Message-ID: <200208292319.NVG04502@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

"Walt Smith" says
>Subject: [TML] Someone else having a go at the 
Scout/Courier  
>To: tml@travellercentral.com
>
>This was posted to the Deckplans mailing list recently,
>and I thought people here might want a look at it,
>it's a fine-looking starship.
>
>http://www.scifi-meshes.com/forums/showthread.php?
s=&threadid=1067
>
>The artist intends to follow with deckplans, cutaways,
>and other renderings...I'm looking forward to it.
>
>Walt Smith
>Firelock on DALNet

Effing incredible!  Why isn't this guy publishing this stuff?
________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 17:27:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Thu Aug 29 16:27:43 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
In-Reply-To: <B993F5EB.6B909%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000301c24fb2$a51e8910$0b01a8c0@duck>

I can only speak from CT and GT.

In CT, mass is completely ignored.  Whether you carry 1 dton of air or
1 dton of lead matters not.  The Traveller Adventure specifies standard
containers being 3mx3mx6m, which should give 4dton each.

In GT, I don't have Far Trader, so I can't speak to the standard container
issue, but I figure it would be 2000 cf (again, 4dton).  GT does take
mass into account and, if you are not glossing it all over, will affect
what you acceleration is.  To compute the "standard" acceleration, GT
assumes that each dton of cargo will weight 5 stons.

Mike West

> -----Original Message-----
> On Behalf Of Tod Glenn
>
> The subject says it all.  Can someone clarify what is meant by a ton of
> cargo.  It seems that in terms of ship design, x tons of cargo space is
> really the dtons in volume.  How does that relate to actual mass.
>
> For example, suppose a ship has 100 dtons of cargo space.  Filling the
cargo
> space with melon is not the same as filling it with advanced metal alloy
> ingots.  The latter is obviously much more massive.  And the total mass of
> the ship effects it's acceleration (a = F/m).
>
> In any case, I'm trying to determine what a 1-ton cargo container would
look
> like.  Dimensions, total mass (or mass limit).  Any thoughts?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 17:32:38 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug 29 16:32:38 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
Message-ID: <200208292329.NVH00321@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>For example, suppose a ship has 100 dtons of cargo space.  
>Filling the cargo space with melon is not the same as 
>filling it with advanced metal alloy ingots.  The latter is 
>obviously much more massive.  And the total mass of
>the ship effects it's acceleration (a = F/m).

Here is where I will use John Wheeler, and his explanation of 
gravity, and take your Newtonian view and dispense with it.

Newton believed that gravity was a property of mass.  It is 
not.  Gravity is a property of the curvature of spacetime.

If we posit that placing a large mass, such as a planet, in 
one spot, curves that space enough to create "gravity", then 
you will now imagine a surface with a large sloping well in 
it.  If we put any other mass on that slope, it slides on 
down.

Now, imagine that we have antigravity.  We're by definition 
pulling "up" on the fabric of spacetime, making a locally 
inverted area on that well formed by the planet.  Instead of 
spacetime curving down, the local area is actually curved up 
into a spike.  Put anything on that spike, and it's going to 
fall up - regardless of its mass.

IMTU this warping of spacetime on a small scale is what 
constitutes "gravitics".  Now, we can put anything we want on 
the air/raft, and it's going to fall "up", as long as it 
stays within the confines of the "spike".  This explains the 
fact that we key on volume rather than mass.

IMTU I take it a step further - jump drives are a further 
step in gravitics - why we see both gravitics and jump drives 
at TL 9 in CT.  We can't make an antigravity spike larger 
than 6 G without introducing unwanted anomalies - but if we 
extend that spike past a certain threshold - we get jump.  
Kind of like some quantum gravity limit.  This also explains 
why you don't want to be in a gravity well.  I believe that 
somewhere between 6G and the jump threshold is an 
undesireable area - you don't want to be there in terms of 
spacetime curvature.  And if you're in a gravity well, it 
makes it hard to reach the jump threshold.  If you don't 
reach the threshold, and fall back, you just disappear.

So, to answer your question, 1 ton of cargo IMTU is 14.5 
cubic meters, regardless of mass (within the structural 
limits of your cargo bay).
________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 17:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Thu Aug 29 16:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
References: <B993F5EB.6B909%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D6EB151.6040805@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> The subject says it all.  Can someone clarify what is meant by a ton of
> cargo.  It seems that in terms of ship design, x tons of cargo space is
> really the dtons in volume.  How does that relate to actual mass.
> 
> For example, suppose a ship has 100 dtons of cargo space.  Filling the cargo
> space with melon is not the same as filling it with advanced metal alloy
> ingots.  The latter is obviously much more massive.  And the total mass of
> the ship effects it's acceleration (a = F/m).
> 
> In any case, I'm trying to determine what a 1-ton cargo container would look
> like.  Dimensions, total mass (or mass limit).  Any thoughts?

Canonically cargo is measured in displacement tons, that is to say 
volume, 14.<something> cubic meters.

A 1 ton container will look remarkably like a small cargo container as 
used here, about 2 x 2 x 3.5 meters or so in size.

http://www.hamburg-sued.com/Com_co12.htm

Standard sizes appear on the web site above.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 18:43:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Thu Aug 29 17:43:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The guys that beat the Romans time and time again...
References: <20020829155654.9054.25074.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <006501c24fbe$c7026a40$cab18b90@computer>

> From: "John T. Kwon"
> Is it chauvinistic to assume that major cultural aspects of
> our current time remained intact over the millienia?  Did
> religions disappear and new ones take their place over that
> time?  In Egypt today, is there a community that worships Ra?

There's no Ra worshippers in Egypt today. On the other hand, the cult of
Isis was assimilated into Christianity (Mary). As an independent religion,
the temple of Isis was shut down by Justinian in the 6th Century AD.
Presumably the religion lasted, in the Sudan, if not in Egypt itself, for a
century or so later, until the Islamic conquests.

Other ancient religions have survived, of course. The Samaritans are an
interesting example. Oddly enough, their version of "Judaism" may actually
be closer to that of Roman times than that of the sects derived from the
Jerusalem cult.

Other interesting survivals include the Zoroastrians.

Of course, it's always useful to remember how _few_ Jews there actually are.
There may very well be more Sikhs, Jains or members of other "minor"
religions like those than there are Jews in the world.

The real importance of Judaism these days is more in its influence on Islam
and Christianity. But even then it's worth noting that Judaism emerged out
of a larger social context. It was just one sect out of many worshipping the
same gods. Yes, that's godS plural. The actual monotheistic religion emerged
relatively late, under Persian influence.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 18:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (JR Holmes)
Date: Thu Aug 29 17:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Absent Friends
In-Reply-To: <002b01c24f82$eb511ea0$ca2bf7a5@pctframen>
References: <002b01c24f82$eb511ea0$ca2bf7a5@pctframen>
Message-ID: <40gtmuod6dr3cul0jl9msfk4q6icdt67f6@4ax.com>

On Thu, 29 Aug 2002 13:38:41 -0400, "Fred Ramen" <von_rammen@msn.com>
wrote:

>It is a tribute the the General's memory that his passing is still being
>mourned more than a week later. While I never had the pleasure of
>corresponding directly with Mr. Stafford, I always found his posts to be
>intriguing and entertaining--and best of all, almost always
>thought-provoking.
>
>In light of his final TML accomplishment--the massive =
MegaTraveller-designed
>fleet that was our only protection from Mr. Bates' Terran forces--I =
propose
>that we make the Ship Design Rodeo an annual event, named in his honor: =
The
>Bari Z. Stafford Sr. Memorial Turokan Roundup. A poor substitute for his
>presence, to be sure, but it will give us all time to pause and remember=
 his
>memory.

Seconded, but with the suggestion that it instead be referred to as
the "Turokan Naval Review".

--=20
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 19:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leslie Bates)
Date: Thu Aug 29 18:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Someone else having a go at the Scout/Courier
In-Reply-To: <F2891jYhAOylhgnFZS40000da30@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020829203537.00ac7c90@minn.net>

At 05:44 PM 8/29/2002 -0400, Walt Smith wrote:

>This was posted to the Deckplans mailing list recently,
>and I thought people here might want a look at it,
>it's a fine-looking starship.
>
>http://www.scifi-meshes.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1067
>
>The artist intends to follow with deckplans, cutaways,
>and other renderings...I'm looking forward to it.
>
>Walt Smith
>Firelock on DALNet

Really Kewl.

It's also very close to how I visualized the COBRA/CARRONADE/CHAUCHAT
classes, except that they are 400 Dtons and the drive systems are fully
enclosed.


Les

==================================================================
Leslie Bates   (Yes, *That* one.)   LESBATES@MINN.NET
P.O. Box 581211, Minneapolis, MN 55458-1211
------------------------------------------------------------------
     We fall in love with our opinions; we are attached to them 
and feel loyalty to them. It's therefore painful to abandon our 
beliefs, and we are often reluctant to do so. Having a belief 
pulled is indeed more painful than having a tooth pulled. 
	-- David Ramsay Steele, Liberty, August 2002
------------------------------------------------------------------
     Will you follow me into fire, into storm, into darkness, into
death? And the nine said yes. Then do it in testemony to the one 
who will follow, who will bring death, couched in the promise of 
new life, and renewal, disguised as defeat. 
     From birth, through death and renewal, you must put aside old
things, old fears, old lives, This is your death. The death of 
flesh. The Death of pain. The death of yesterday. Taste of it, and
be not afraid, for I am with you, to the end of time. 
	-- Minbari Rebirth/Marriage Ceremony, Babylon Five.
==================================================================


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 20:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Scarlett)
Date: Thu Aug 29 19:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The Secret of CG Revealed
Message-ID: <000001c24fc9$b1110a60$b6463b41@customer>

Upsydaisyium.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 20:16:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 29 19:16:03 2002
Subject: [TML] sheer handwave
Message-ID: <31.2c467805.2aa02f3a@aol.com>

 >There was a reason that
 >the Palestine was considered a hardship post for Romans.

I seem to remember something about the Rhine ... not to mention the 
Parthians.  The Romans lost entire legions in those places.  Rome carried on 
for several peaceful and prosperous centuries after Jerusalem was sacked and 
the Temple burned -- to say that the Jews were a primary factor in the fall 
of Rome is sheer handwave.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 20:20:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Thu Aug 29 19:20:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Military budgets
In-Reply-To: <58900.144.51.73.129.1030650076.squirrel@webmail.raba.com>
Message-ID: <000001c24fcb$ad53f070$6501a8c0@Darla>

Average military budget is given as 3% of GNP, maximum of 15% with
tensions, minimum of 1% during extended peace.

Of that, average 40% on ground forces; but only 6% on vacuum or trace
atmosphere worlds.  

All per Striker Book 2, p. 38.

TWB

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com [mailto:tml-
> admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Jon Zeigler
> Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 2:41 PM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] Military budgets
> 
> Quick request:
> 
> Can someone who has immediate access to STRIKER remind me of what
> the rules say about military budgets? Specifically, how much of a
> world's GDP is typically directed to the military, and how much of
> that is usually spent on ground forces as opposed to naval forces?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> ----------
> Jon F. Zeigler
> Line Editor, GURPS Traveller
> jon@sjgames.com
> "The referee should determine the flow of subsequent events."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 20:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug 29 19:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
In-Reply-To: <200208292329.NVH00321@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B994255F.6B923%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/29/02 4:29 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> Here is where I will use John Wheeler, and his explanation of
> gravity, and take your Newtonian view and dispense with it.

[snip]

John.  You're letting theory interfere with reality.  For cases in which we
are not dealing with a significant fraction of the speed of light, good old
Newtonian physics works just fine.  And can be verified experimentally.
Never mind that we define force as mass times acceleration.  I don't think
anyone would suggest that we adopt a view of physics that doesn't agree wit=
h
what can be verified experimentally, not to mention that we aren't even
dealing with gravity or jump in any case.

The question posited was what is the size/mass of the standard Imperial ton
of cargo.
>=20
> So, to answer your question, 1 ton of cargo IMTU is 14.5
> cubic meters, regardless of mass (within the structural
> limits of your cargo bay).

???

Therefore and empty ship and a ship with a full load of cargo have the same
acceleration? assuming all other factors are equal (maneuver drive, ship's
mass, powerplant, etc)?

Does anyone else see anything wrong with this?
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 20:34:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug 29 19:34:04 2002
Subject: [TML] The guys that beat the Romans time and time again...
In-Reply-To: <006501c24fbe$c7026a40$cab18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <20020830023329.10197.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Alan Bradley <abradley1@bigpond.com> wrote:
> The real importance of Judaism these days is more in
> its influence on Islam
> and Christianity. But even then it's worth noting
> that Judaism emerged out
> of a larger social context. It was just one sect out
> of many worshipping the
> same gods. Yes, that's godS plural. The actual
> monotheistic religion emerged
> relatively late, under Persian influence.

I believe that it would be more appropriate to say
that Mosiac Judaism was worship of One of man gods,
and the idea was that the One was God and the many
were gods (note capitalization).  Now whether the
descendants of Abraham actually followed the rules of
Mosaic Judaism is a different discussion altogether.

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 20:37:46 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Cheng Tseng)
Date: Thu Aug 29 19:37:46 2002
Subject: [TML] System and Colonial Forces Question
Message-ID: <20020829185913.4a0c4cbd288c4fac86f0ea21363f83a5.in@keywest.kennett.net>

Hello,

This might have been covered somewhere else, but how big would a high-tech,
high population, industrial or rich system like Rhylanor or Mora or even
that system in Star Lanes/Deneb with a "B" population rating (The only one
in the Doman/Regency) have with regards to their standing system forces?
Path of Tears (To name something I can think of off-hand.) gives me the
numbers of ground troops and the number of personnel assigned to the
spaceborne forees, but I am looking for the break-down in the number and
tonnage of SBDs, fighters, and  even jump-capable warships.

Thanks,

C.T.




From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 20:42:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 29 19:42:12 2002
Subject: [TML] re: The guys that beat the Romans time and time again...
Message-ID: <39.2c725c92.2aa03505@aol.com>

 >> Rupert's point is well taken. Most of the words in the quoted material
 >>from John's post are derived from Latin: Returning, nation, descendants,
 >>adherents, original, religion, admirable, incredible, perserverance,
 >>patience, Romans, society, faded, military, victory.
 >
 >I thought I mention that with a few exceptions, all of those Roman Latin
 >words, are based on Hebrew concepts and ideas!

The Romans got their idea of "returning" from the Hebrews?
The Romans got their idea of "nation" from the Hebrews?
The Romans got their idea of "descendents" from the Hebrews?
The Romans got their idea of "adherents" from the Hebrews?
The Romans got their idea of "original" from the Hebrews?
The Romans got their idea of "religion" from the Hebrews?
The Romans got their idea of "admirable" from the Hebrews?
The Romans got their idea of "incredible" from the Hebrews?
The Romans got their idea of "perseverence" from the Hebrews?
The Romans got their idea of "patience" from the Hebrews?
The Romans got their idea of "society" from the Hebrews?
The Romans got their idea of "military" from the Hebrews?
The Romans got their idea of "victory" from the Hebrews?

This sounds like something out of Mein Kampf.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 20:46:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Thu Aug 29 19:46:08 2002
Subject: [TML] The guys that beat the Romans time and time again...
In-Reply-To: <006501c24fbe$c7026a40$cab18b90@computer>
References: <20020829155654.9054.25074.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
 <006501c24fbe$c7026a40$cab18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <m3adn5f4qb.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Alan Bradley" <abradley1@bigpond.com> writes:
> 
> There's no Ra worshippers in Egypt today.  On the other hand, the
> cult of Isis was assimilated into Christianity (Mary).

I don't think that there's much similarity between the pagan worship
of Ra and the Orthodox Christian attitude towards Mary...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it
wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought.  Debugging had
to be discovered.  I can remember the exact instant when I realised
that a large part of my life from then on was going to be spent in
finding mistakes in my own programs.
                        --Maurice Wilkes discovers debugging, 1949

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 20:50:18 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu Aug 29 19:50:18 2002
Subject: [TML] sheer handwave
In-Reply-To: <31.2c467805.2aa02f3a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020830024233.85317.qmail@web20902.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
>  >There was a reason that
>  >the Palestine was considered a hardship post for
> Romans.
> 
> I seem to remember something about the Rhine ... not
> to mention the 
> Parthians.  The Romans lost entire legions in those
> places.  Rome carried on 
> for several peaceful and prosperous centuries after
> Jerusalem was sacked and 
> the Temple burned -- to say that the Jews were a
> primary factor in the fall 
> of Rome is sheer handwave.

Regardless of whether he is right or wrong, and
whether you believe him or not, you have to admire his
Patriotic Nationalism.

And who among us can deny a bit of that in each of us.

ObTrav:

There are some countries today that don't teach their
youngsters about their national defeats.  How would
the Traveller empire's deal with this.

Obviously, the Terran Confederation wouldn't teach
about their defeats.  Are there any official records
of the Imperium acknowledging defeat?  What about the
other empires and their teaching of history?

Paul

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 20:54:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Listmom)
Date: Thu Aug 29 19:54:13 2002
Subject: [TML] The guys that beat the Romans (ObTrav?)
In-Reply-To: <20020830023329.10197.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B99429E3.6B927%listmom@travellercentral.com>

on 8/29/02 7:33 PM, Paul Walker at traveller_tv@yahoo.com wrote:

> 
> I believe that it would be more appropriate to say
> that Mosiac Judaism was worship of One of man gods,
> and the idea was that the One was God and the many
> were gods (note capitalization).  Now whether the
> descendants of Abraham actually followed the rules of
> Mosaic Judaism is a different discussion altogether.
> 

One best preserved for another list.  As this topic is verging on One of The
Forbidden Topics, we should bring this right back to Traveller or end it
before things get unpleasant.

-- 
listmom@travellercentral.com
for list information see
http://lists.travellercentral.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 20:59:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug 29 19:59:04 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
Message-ID: <200208300254.NVO02253@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>Therefore and empty ship and a ship with a full load of 
>cargo have the same acceleration? assuming all other factors 
>are equal (maneuver drive, ship's mass, powerplant, etc)?
>
>Does anyone else see anything wrong with this?

I'm not accelerating the ship or its cargo.  I'm bending the 
local space, just as the planet bends space with its mass.  
The amount of energy required to do the bending is 
independent of the mass "falling up".  Gravity is not a force 
transmitted from one object to another - if I'm falling to 
Earth, it's because the space is curved, and I'm obeying the 
curve instantly (ever wonder why the Earth never runs out of 
gravitational force?).

The book "A Journey Into Gravity and Spacetime" by Wheeler 
has several interesting thought experiments that involve no 
near-c velocities - it's all done here on Earth.  There are 
major, major holes in Newton. 
________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 21:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 29 20:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How roomy are starships?
Message-ID: <10d.17455842.2aa038f2@aol.com>

 >It's interesting to take a look at some of the Traveller artwork out there
 >and note how roomy starships are inside.  Just how much open space is there
 >in the average merchant or military vessel?  Is it more like a passenger
 >liner or a submarine, IYO?

Military vessels are stuffed full of equipment because that is their reason 
for being.  Passenger liners have more open space because passenger comfort 
is _their_ reason for being.  It will depend on the purpose and mission of 
the ship.

I just finished the deckplans for a tech 10 CT 4000 ton holiday liner.  The 
power plant is larger than it had to be, but I still was able to give the 
passengers quite a bit of room and long lines of sight.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 21:07:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 29 20:07:29 2002
Subject: [TML] How roomy are starships?
Message-ID: <12c.16be5cdb.2aa039fb@aol.com>

 > That's because all the previous artwork for Traveller (deckplans & such) 
HAS NOT   
 >taken into account the available space for the actual geometric volume of 
the ship  
 >:)  If I modeled a Type S with the volume listed given by FF&S2, it'd be 
significantly 
 >smaller than the size given by the deckplans.  In fact, I think I'll do 
just that and 
 >post the results!  Stay tuned ;)

I thought I did a pretty good job with this one.

http://members.aol.com/exog/myhomepage/scout.html

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 21:11:35 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark F Cook)
Date: Thu Aug 29 20:11:35 2002
Subject: [TML] USS America - Naval crew accommodation
Message-ID: <AIIJKAGEFIFHAAAA@shared1-mail.whowhere.com>

Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> writes:

>ObTrav:  Inter-service opinions.  What does the average Marine think of the 
>Army tanker?  What do they both think of the Navy?

I can answer that!  We think of the tankers as the drivers of big, slow-moving targets, and the Navy as consisting of big, slow-moving taxis! :^)

    "ITV... *UP*!  Multiple targets, bearing
     185, range 2000 meters.  Fire at will!"

    - Mark C.


Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 21:16:06 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (James Lillard)
Date: Thu Aug 29 20:16:06 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 Release Date...
Message-ID: <000f01c24fd3$10ef57d0$6501a8c0@james>

	Since I can't get anyone to respond to my emails on the T20
webpage I thought I would post here.

- When is the game going to be released?  I preordered back in June,
expecting the game to be released mid to late July and it is now
September.  Please give us (at least those who are anticipating the
release) a status on the webpage or a post to this newsgroup.

Thanks,

James T. Lillard
---2.5*@2.8#---
=A0
=A0



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 21:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Thu Aug 29 20:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Strange feat in T20 Lite
References: <200208291726.NUV00089@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D6EE589.8F24D295@pobox.com>

"John T. Kwon" wrote:
> My favorite task is eating a bagel and talking on the cell
> phone while driving (no hands free unit for me).  In rush
> hour traffic on the interstate in a construction zone.  Don't
> drop any of the lettuce, tomato, onion, or nova.  Don't get a
> ticket.  Don't crash.  Don't slow down.  Don't drop the
> phone.  Intermittently, put the bagel on your lap and drink
> some coffee.

Ahhh, but are you driving a vehicle with a _manual_ transmission....

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 21:34:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hunter Gordon)
Date: Thu Aug 29 20:34:03 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 Release Date...
In-Reply-To: <000f01c24fd3$10ef57d0$6501a8c0@james>
References: <000f01c24fd3$10ef57d0$6501a8c0@james>
Message-ID: <200208292334360677.4D38ED00@mail.atl.bellsouth.net>

On 8/29/2002 at 9:12 PM James Lillard wrote:

>Since I can't get anyone to respond to my emails on the T20
>webpage I thought I would post here.
>
>- When is the game going to be released?  I preordered back in June,
>expecting the game to be released mid to late July and it is now
>September.  Please give us (at least those who are anticipating the
>release) a status on the webpage or a post to this newsgroup.

It goes to the printer on Tuesday and should be shipping mid to end Sept. I=
 apologize on the delay, there were some layout issues that I noticed and=
 wanted to get fixed before sending it off to print. This took a bit to get=
 reworked (three chapters had to be redone). We are doing final layout=
 edits through the weekend to hand off as mentioned on Tuesday. 

BTW, I did post information about this in an article on the CotI site,=
 there are a couple of threads on the message boards on this, and the=
 release schedule was updated about 2 weeks ago to reflect the current=
 status.

Hunter
QLI/RPGRealms



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 21:41:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug 29 20:41:03 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
In-Reply-To: <200208300254.NVO02253@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B9943754.6B939%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/29/02 7:54 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

>=20
> The book "A Journey Into Gravity and Spacetime" by Wheeler
> has several interesting thought experiments that involve no
> near-c velocities - it's all done here on Earth.  There are
> major, major holes in Newton.

No doubt, but it got us to the moon.  I'll accelerate mass, you bend space.
We'll see who gets there first :)

Thought experiments are all very well and good, but theories that cannot be
proved by experimentation are just that, theories.

If you gift your Traveller spacecraft with the ability to bend space, there
are all kinds of implications to the whole TU.  Just the ability to control
gravity in the old LBBs has all kinds of implications the authors never
considered.

Wouldn't, for example, being able to curve space allow you to deflect (or
redirect) incoming laser light?  I can think of a whole host of problems
this introduces, and I'm one who's up on my advanced physics.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 21:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Thu Aug 29 20:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
In-Reply-To: <B9943754.6B939%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <B9943B7E.6B941%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/29/02 8:40 PM, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:

> this introduces, and I'm one who's up on my advanced physics.

Make that who's _not_ up
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 22:18:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug 29 21:18:03 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
Message-ID: <200208300417.NVQ02670@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn says
>Thought experiments are all very well and good, but theories 
>that cannot be proved by experimentation are just that, 
>theories.

The problem is that the thought experiments grew into 
experiments as well.  It's not just theory.  It's observable 
fact.

>Wouldn't, for example, being able to curve space allow you 
>to deflect (or redirect) incoming laser light?  I can think 
>of a whole host of problems this introduces, and I'm one 
>who's up on my advanced physics.

Light only bends at very high curvatures of space, say, 
around solar masses or even black holes.  The whole idea 
of "grav focused lasers" seems to have this in mind.

But if I'm only bending a little space a little ways, say, 
enough to fall up, it's nowhere near what would be needed to 
bend light.  

Besides - if I'm saying that gravitics is just minor 
spacetime distortion, and jump drives are major spacetime 
distortion, and that both operate on the same principle and 
differ only in scale, then I'm consistent in my handwaving, 
and not extrapolating from Newton, but from modern physics.
________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 22:24:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Thu Aug 29 21:24:04 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Prevalence of grav vehicles
References: <E17jVbt-0006fB-00@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>	<3D6B505D.7000702@usisp.com> <m3znv7gvom.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <3D6EDDD1.4000108@usisp.com>

Robert Uhl < @4dv.net=""> wrote:

>richard honeycutt <richard@usisp.com> writes:
>
>>>I'm guessing that the old ideas of factories, traffic patterns and
>>>similar stuff being controlled by a single central computer came
>>>to be because people back in the 50s and 60s could not imagine
>>>computers being so tiny or ever-present.
>>>
>>As I recall, shady shennanagins with computers really took off when
>>computers became networked.
>>
>
>When insecure OSes were networked, I'd argue.  Note that Unix, despite
>its virtues, has been insecure for years, but has finally had most of
>the holes spackled closed.  Windows isn't even beginning to get there,
>although I daresay that Microsoft are attempting to work on it.
>
    Why assume that OS's in the future will be secure? What is the 
Imperial standard
hardware and os? or the standard language for programming? With 
thousands of
worlds and thousands of manufacturers all trying to build a better 
product than the others,
certainly there will be holes somewhere and people clever enough to 
exploit them.

>
>





From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 22:28:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Thu Aug 29 21:28:09 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
References: <B994255F.6B923%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D6EF081.1060502@usisp.com>

Tod Glenn wrote:

>
>The question posited was what is the size/mass of the standard Imperial ton
>of cargo.
>
    If I remember correctly, 1 dton is equal to 13.5 meters^3.

>Therefore and empty ship and a ship with a full load of cargo have the same
>acceleration? assuming all other factors are equal (maneuver drive, ship's
>mass, powerplant, etc)?
>
>Does anyone else see anything wrong with this?
>
    Yes. F=ma applies.
    No. Canon has always ignored this little bit in the interests of 
simplicity.
No sense going around and recalculating mass after every fuel usage. Of 
course
when most every player has access to computers...why not?



From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 22:33:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mike West)
Date: Thu Aug 29 21:33:02 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
In-Reply-To: <B994255F.6B923%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000401c24fdd$49b80a80$0b01a8c0@duck>

On Behalf Of Tod Glenn
> Therefore and empty ship and a ship with a full load of cargo have the
same
> acceleration? assuming all other factors are equal (maneuver drive, ship's
> mass, powerplant, etc)?
>
> Does anyone else see anything wrong with this?

That is the way CT works.  But then CT also gives us "magic missles"
where missle racks and missle bays have an infinite supply of free
missles.

Other systems have tried to "fix" this.  I know GT does base acceleration
on mass.  (They also remove the arbitrary 6G limit, too.)  I believe TNE
also introduces mass.

Mike West


From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 22:36:56 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?James=20Ramsay?=)
Date: Thu Aug 29 21:36:56 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
Message-ID: <20020830043145.95329.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>

QUOTE
Tod Glenn says
>For example, suppose a ship has 100 dtons of cargo 
> space. Filling the cargo space with melon is not the
> same as filling it with advanced metal alloy ingots.
 The latter is obviously much more massive.  And the
total mass of the ship effects it's acceleration (a =
F/m).

Here is where I will use John Wheeler, and his
explanation of gravity, and take your Newtonian view
and dispense with it.

Newton believed that gravity was a property of mass. 
It is not.  Gravity is a property of the curvature of
spacetime.

If we posit that placing a large mass, such as a
planet, in one spot, curves that space enough to
create "gravity", then you will now imagine a surface
with a large sloping well in it.  If we put any other
mass on that slope, it slides on 
down.

Now, imagine that we have antigravity.  We're by
definition pulling "up" on the fabric of spacetime,
making a locally inverted area on that well formed by
the planet.  Instead of spacetime curving down, the
local area is actually curved up into a spike.  Put
anything on that spike, and it's going to 
fall up - regardless of its mass.

IMTU this warping of spacetime on a small scale is
what constitutes "gravitics".  Now, we can put
anything we want on the air/raft, and it's going to
fall "up", as long as it stays within the confines of
the "spike".  This explains the fact that we key on
volume rather than mass.

IMTU I take it a step further - jump drives are a
further step in gravitics - why we see both gravitics
and jump drives at TL 9 in CT.  We can't make an
antigravity spike larger than 6 G without introducing
unwanted anomalies - but if we extend that spike past
a certain threshold - we get jump.  Kind of like some
quantum gravity limit.  This also explains 
why you don't want to be in a gravity well.  I believe
that somewhere between 6G and the jump threshold is an

undesireable area - you don't want to be there in
terms of spacetime curvature.  And if you're in a
gravity well, it makes it hard to reach the jump
threshold.  If you don't reach the threshold, and fall
back, you just disappear.

So, to answer your question, 1 ton of cargo IMTU is
14.5 cubic meters, regardless of mass (within the
structural limits of your cargo bay).
END QUOTE

Great John just went and gave a decent explanation for
the whole dton issue. That is that manuever and
j-drives don't push on a mass with force to give a
acceleration. They simply ;) bend space/time in a
certain direction locally. This would explain why ship
sizes are given dtons, the field will move "any"
amount of mass that can fit in side.

James

=====
When saluting a &#8216;leg&#8217; officer, an appropriate greeting is not "Airborne leads the wa- oh...sorry sir". 
www.skippyslist.com

http://digital.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Digital How To
- Get the best out of your PC!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 22:47:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug 29 21:47:02 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
Message-ID: <200208300446.NVS00850@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

richard honeycutt says
>    Yes. F=ma applies.

Only if you're using a rocket.  Not if you're bending 
spacetime.

The Earth is bending spacetime right now - just not nearly 
enough to bend the light around us.  But it's bent enough to 
really hurt you if you jumped from the 10th floor.

IMTU gravitics is just locally (within your ship or vehicle's 
volume) bending spacetime in a similar manner in 
an "opposite" direction.  So instead of falling towards the 
earth, you now "fall" in the desired direction.

________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 23:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Thu Aug 29 22:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Newton was and is wrong about gravity
Message-ID: <200208300502.NVS01824@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Newton's laws of mechanics and universal gravitation worked 
wonderfully well in describing virtually all terrestial 
phenomena as well as the motions of the moon and the planets. 
In this sense Newton provided a beautiful synthesis of two 
previously distinct sets of phenomena: the terrestrial and 
the celestial. However, as with all theories and combination 
of experimental results and conceptual reasoning ultimately 
forced Newton's gravitation theory to be modified and 
replaced by Einsein's theory of general relativity. 

There were essentially three problems with Newton's theory. 
First of all, there was a conceptual problem. In Newtonian 
gravity, the strength of the gravitational force bewteen two 
bodies was proportional to the product of the inertial masses 
of the bodies. Inertial mass was therefore doing double duty: 
by definition, it was a measure of the resistence of an 
object to a change in velocity. In addition, inertial mass 
seem to also play a role as the "gravitational charge". In 
much the same way that electric charge determines the 
strength of electrostatic forces between two charged objects, 
the inertial mass (a.k.a. the gravitational charge) 
determines the strength of the corresponding gravitational 
force. This is the reason that, as found by Galileo, all 
objects fall to Earth at precisely the same rate. The reason 
for this double duty is a complete mystery in the context of 
Newtonian mechanics, but is essentially a trivial consequence 
of Einsteinian gravity. The second problem with Newton's 
theory was that it described gravity as an instantaneous 
force of attraction between two massive objects. 
Consequently, if you move one of them, the other knows about 
the move immediately due to the change in gravitation, 
irrespective of the distance between them. Finally, and most 
importantly, there was a discrepancy, albeit very tiny, 
between the predictions of Newton's theory, and experimental 
observation for the precession of Mercury's orbit (43 seconds 
of arc per year). 
________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 23:07:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 29 22:07:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: deckplans -- 200 ton merchant transport vessel
Message-ID: <46.2cd82fef.2aa05740@aol.com>

 >>A really great merchant transport vessel.
 >
 >"Really great"?  Methinks you should leave such
 >descriptions to others. ;-)
 >
 >http://members.aol.com/exog/myhomepage/mcg2.html

I like stating the obvious.

 >I think
 >that the US Space Shuttle has plans for venting the
 >compartment to space for fighting major fires - would
 >vacuum be more hazardous to people than halon?

The shuttle's tiny inhabited space with fully trained crew can vent and 
recharge quickly and has little room for firefighting equipment, and to my 
knowledge the crew is not expected to conduct operations while dealing with a 
fire.  A 200 ton merchant vessel with passengers cannot vent and recharge 
quickly, has room for firefighting equipment, and may need to continue 
operations while the fire is in progress.  The simplest way to deal with a 
fire without causing more immediate problems is halon (or whatever non-toxic 
equivilant exists in the future).  The Erin can vent too, but I thought it 
should have more options.

 >And what are the spaces marked 'g' again?

Gear lockers.  It's hard to fit the word "gear" into a half-ton space.  
Between tools, spare parts, weapons, food, vacc suits, batteries, 
flashlights, hull-patching kits, first aid kits, welding equipment, jacks, 
electronic diagnostic equipment, gloves, wire, and so on, I try to make all 
my boats have at least 1% of their tonnage devoted to gear lockers if they 
have no ship's cargo space.

 >Are any of those sliding doors intended
 >to act as a cargo airlock?  Relocate the aft turret
 >(dorsal or ventral) and you could use the flush aft
 >end of the ship as a way to mate with a space
 >station.

Now that is definitely an improvement.  Thanks.

 >If so, the aft cargo area would be a
 >good place to partition off as a cargo lock...and
 >the cargo lock is a good place for an emergency
 >escape hatch (which you have in that aft passenger
 >stateroom) to pop out in.

That would be desireable, and the original design did just that, but the 
cargo space is already small enough as it is.  I didn't want to infringe on 
it any more than I had to.  I envision the sliding doors as being somewhat 
like those sliding van doors, only they are to be bolted down before 
spaceflight to ensure the airtight integrity of these single boundaries to 
vaccuum.

 >Map scale isn't indicated - is that forward upper-deck
 >corridor 1.5m wide?

Yes.  I get so used to it that I failed to mention it in the write-up.

 >Those forward fuel nacelles could be located off
 >the upper deck instead of the lower - it looks like
 >they're taking up footprint space around the nose,
 >cargo ops might be easier without having to go
 >around them.

Yeah, they could.  But I figured five cargo doors and their front space were 
enough.

 >Or are there a couple of landing
 >legs inside them?  What kind of landing gear
 >are you envisioning?

Just simple rigid keel skids, with the vessel setting straight down either by 
gravitics or by re-directed maneuver drive.  Neither merchant vessel in 
Supplement 7 has any provision for landing gear, but seem to park directly on 
the ground.  The Erin does too.

 >Does this ship have onboard fuel treatment, or is
 >it intended for work in more civilized areas?

The area marked "pur" is the fuel purification equipment.  Again, I get so 
used to seeing it that I failed to say so in the write-up.

 >Again the same design for multiple tech levels, but
 >it strikes me that you may not be allowing for the
 >higher fuel requirements of a power-plant 3 over a
 >power-plant 2 - yes, a TL 9-12 PP2 fits in the same
 >space as a TL 13-14 PP3, but the PP3 is going to need
 >150% as much fuel.

Both versions generate four energy points, using four tons of fuel.  The tech 
13-14 version simply allows a choice between m2 without energy weapons and m1 
with energy weapons, while tech 9-12 only allows m1 with energy weapons.

Thanks again.  I'll make the write-up corrections and probably redo the aft 
turret placement.  I should both turrets on the outboard bulkheads of the aft 
fuel nacelles.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 23:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 29 22:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
Message-ID: <9f.2c756bdc.2aa05bcf@aol.com>

 >Therefore and empty ship and a ship with a full load of cargo have the same
 >acceleration? assuming all other factors are equal (maneuver drive, ship's
 >mass, powerplant, etc)?
 >
 >Does anyone else see anything wrong with this?

I don't (ignorant as I am).  I mean, I see what you are saying, but he's 
talking about moving things, not by applying force, but by applying gravity.  
A feather and a bowling ball will fall at the same acceleration in a given 
gravity well.  Since Traveller moves things around by means of gravity 
manipulation, then yes, an empty ship and an identical ship full of lead 
ingots will accelerate identically, because they are not being pushed but 
rather are falling.  Least, that's how I understand what he said.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Thu Aug 29 23:40:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 29 22:40:05 2002
Subject: [TML] sheer handwave
Message-ID: <194.c6abfb6.2aa05f22@aol.com>

 >>  >There was a reason that
 >>  >the Palestine was considered a hardship post for
 >> Romans.
 >> 
 >> I seem to remember something about the Rhine ... not
 >> to mention the 
 >> Parthians.  The Romans lost entire legions in those
 >> places.  Rome carried on 
 >> for several peaceful and prosperous centuries after
 >> Jerusalem was sacked and 
 >> the Temple burned -- to say that the Jews were a
 >> primary factor in the fall 
 >> of Rome is sheer handwave.
 >
 >Regardless of whether he is right or wrong, and
 >whether you believe him or not, you have to admire his
 >Patriotic Nationalism.

Not when it's irrational.

And I don't think "patriotic nationalism" describes his position.

 >Obviously, the Terran Confederation wouldn't teach
 >about their defeats.

They might.  It certainly would be hard to explain the fact that Terra is on 
the Imperial side of the border without some mention of defeat.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 00:11:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Thu Aug 29 23:11:02 2002
Subject: [TML] General... Who?
Message-ID: <OF255EE54B.621EA1C8-ONCA256C25.0020CEA8-CA256C25.0021DB2B@centrelink.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Mike wrote:
>>>Those in the area who want to get together for dinner or a toast to the 

>>>General...
>>
>>Pardon my ignorance (I may have missed it on the TML) - who?
>
>"General Turokan", the "game name" of a member of the list.  Look
>for the thread "Absent Friends" in the archives.

Found it. Aargh! - how could I have missed it?!!

(Apologies to those who suffered over my lightness on this topic)

I've now read through all the thread, and can only say that all of you 
have already expressed our sympathies as a group most wonderfully, and I 
cannot add much.

So, here's "Amen" to all that has been said before, and rest in peace, 
General.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 01:09:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ken Murphy)
Date: Fri Aug 30 00:09:03 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
Message-ID: <F11Ie36zuYKpF3SJjzd00016c5d@hotmail.com>

   Well,according to the MT Ref book, page 57, bottom left column under 
"volume", it states "Volume is measured in kiloliters, a kiloliter equals 
one cubic meter. Thus a cube that is one meter on a side has a volume of one 
kiloliter. A kiloliter contains 1,000 liters; 13.5 kiloliters equals one ton 
of displacement"
   Okay, here we go...On page 85 of the MT Ref book, top left column under 
"Loaded Weight", it states "to compute the average weight of a full cargo 
hold,multiply the volume of the hold in kiloliters by 1,000kg (one metric 
ton)."
   There you go!
  -Ken-


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 01:14:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug 30 00:14:02 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
In-Reply-To: <200208300417.NVQ02670@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B9946929.6B9A2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/29/02 9:17 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> Tod Glenn says
>> Thought experiments are all very well and good, but theories
>> that cannot be proved by experimentation are just that,
>> theories.
>=20
> The problem is that the thought experiments grew into
> experiments as well.  It's not just theory.  It's observable
> fact.

Could you please give an example?


In any case, the salient point about Newtonian physics is not that it's
broken.  Newtonian physics is just a special case of more esoteric physics.
One that remains valid in 99.9999% of real world applications.

Well before Wheeler it was understood that under certain conditions,
Newtonian physics was not applicable.  But, as I stated before, we've
managed to build machines, bridges and a host of other constructs, and even
go to the moon using basic Newtonian physics.
>=20
>> Wouldn't, for example, being able to curve space allow you
>> to deflect (or redirect) incoming laser light?  I can think
>> of a whole host of problems this introduces, and I'm one
>> who's up on my advanced physics.
>=20
> Light only bends at very high curvatures of space, say,
> around solar masses or even black holes.  The whole idea
> of "grav focused lasers" seems to have this in mind.

Not according to the theories I've read.  It just doesn't bend noticeably a=
t
low curvatures.  Then again, you are talking about a 6 G curvature around a
very discrete object.  It takes the mass of the earth to generate a 1G
curvature.  You are going to do six times that around an object a few dozen
meters in circumference?
>=20
> But if I'm only bending a little space a little ways, say,
> enough to fall up, it's nowhere near what would be needed to
> bend light.=20

Then again, light isn't being bent.  Light is just following the curvature
of space.  Thus any distortion 'bends' light.  Of course, normally it takes
massive objects to distort space enough for us to be able to perceive the
effect.  But it has been confirmed experimentally.  Even I remember that
much.=20
>=20
> Besides - if I'm saying that gravitics is just minor
> spacetime distortion, and jump drives are major spacetime
> distortion, and that both operate on the same principle and
> differ only in scale, then I'm consistent in my handwaving,
> and not extrapolating from Newton, but from modern physics.

True.  But wouldn't the gravity gradient effect every other body in the
area.  Other ships, asteroids, moons, planets.  Unless you are able to make
the distortion extremely small (in which case the gradient would be steep
indeed).  Perhaps I'm missing something here.

I'll have to read this Wheeler myself.


--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 01:18:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug 30 00:18:04 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
In-Reply-To: <200208292329.NVH00321@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B9946A1B.6B9A3%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/29/02 4:29 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> Here is where I will use John Wheeler, and his explanation of
> gravity, and take your Newtonian view and dispense with it.
>=20
> Newton believed that gravity was a property of mass.  It is
> not.  Gravity is a property of the curvature of spacetime.
>=20
> If we posit that placing a large mass, such as a planet, in
> one spot, curves that space enough to create "gravity", then
> you will now imagine a surface with a large sloping well in
> it.  If we put any other mass on that slope, it slides on
> down.

This is classical Einsteinian theory.  Nothing new here.  If one takes
Newtonian physics as nothing more than a special case of Einsteinian
physics, there are really no issues.  The Newtonian view is still valid
within the special case.  If Wheeler has proved that Newtonian physics is
invalid, even within the special case,  I will be more than a little
surprised.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 01:24:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug 30 00:24:03 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
In-Reply-To: <20020830043145.95329.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B9946B6B.6B9A6%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/29/02 9:31 PM, James Ramsay at quakers_united@yahoo.com.au wrote:

>=20
> Great John just went and gave a decent explanation for
> the whole dton issue. That is that manuever and
> j-drives don't push on a mass with force to give a
> acceleration. They simply ;) bend space/time in a
> certain direction locally. This would explain why ship
> sizes are given dtons, the field will move "any"
> amount of mass that can fit in side.
>=20

Yes, but as I pointed out, if you can create a distortion in the curvature
space that normally requires the mass of a decent sized planet, and do it
with something like a small trader, you've got other issues with your
universe.  Consider for a moment what kind of energy that would require (to
bend space).  The values are so large as to be mind boggling.

If you can distort space, you probably aren't worried about trade.  Anythin=
g
you need could probably just be created from raw energy. :)

Of course, this explains jump.  One just distorts space until it folds over
on itself.  The classic 'bent space shortcut' of science fiction.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 01:28:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (MJ Dougherty)
Date: Fri Aug 30 00:28:04 2002
Subject: [TML] T20 Release Date...
References: <000f01c24fd3$10ef57d0$6501a8c0@james>
Message-ID: <005901c24ff8$02f6af00$6b0ebd50@martinjd>



Since I can't get anyone to respond to my emails on the T20
webpage I thought I would post here.

- When is the game going to be released?  I preordered back in June,
expecting the game to be released mid to late July and it is now
September.  Please give us (at least those who are anticipating the
release) a status on the webpage or a post to this newsgroup.
_______________________________________________

This was addressed some time ago in an article on the website, which we've
directed people to from the boards.

Guess you missed it, (sorry about that), so:

It goes off to the printers after the weekend... release will be late sept.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 01:31:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug 30 00:31:44 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
In-Reply-To: <200208300446.NVS00850@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <B9946C5A.6B9A7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/29/02 9:46 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

> richard honeycutt says
>> Yes. F=3Dma applies.
>=20
> Only if you're using a rocket.  Not if you're bending
> spacetime.
>=20
> The Earth is bending spacetime right now - just not nearly
> enough to bend the light around us.  But it's bent enough to
> really hurt you if you jumped from the 10th floor.

Yes, and earth has a mass of something like 6x10^24kg.  Your going to curve
space to the same extent (or 6x that) from a ship?  And using how much
power.
>=20
> IMTU gravitics is just locally (within your ship or vehicle's
> volume) bending spacetime in a similar manner in
> an "opposite" direction.  So instead of falling towards the
> earth, you now "fall" in the desired direction.

Sorry John, I just don't buy it.  Not in the Traveller universe.  The
implications of such technology alone unbalances the whole TU.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 01:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug 30 00:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
In-Reply-To: <9f.2c756bdc.2aa05bcf@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B9946E9C.6B9AA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/29/02 10:25 PM, Flykiller@aol.com at Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>=20
> I don't (ignorant as I am).  I mean, I see what you are saying, but he's
> talking about moving things, not by applying force, but by applying gravi=
ty.
> A feather and a bowling ball will fall at the same acceleration in a give=
n
> gravity well.  Since Traveller moves things around by means of gravity
> manipulation, then yes, an empty ship and an identical ship full of lead
> ingots will accelerate identically, because they are not being pushed but
> rather are falling.  Least, that's how I understand what he said.

OK, this I buy.  Although the whole idea of moving things around by gravity
seem to me like something that would unbalance the whole TU.  At least in
the send of creating a localized inverse gravity distortion (or whatever yo=
u
want to call it).

The again, being able to generate and/or manipulate gravity has implication=
s
that I'm certain the Mark and the other writers never considered.  They jus=
t
wanted people to be able to walk around inside of spaceships (plot device)
just like they did on all the scifi shows (excepting always 2001, one of
very few scifi movies that even attempted to be accurate).

Certainly, with gravity control there is really no reason to have factories
in space.  Put them down on a planet where it's more convenient and you
don't have to deal with the harsh environment.  You just use grav technolog=
y
to create a local microgravity environment.

For that matter, why even bother to build orbital starports.  Contragrav (o=
r
whatever you want to call it) removes any advantages of highports.  The lis=
t
goes on and on.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 01:48:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug 30 00:48:05 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
In-Reply-To: <F11Ie36zuYKpF3SJjzd00016c5d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B9947124.6B9AD%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/30/02 12:06 AM, Ken Murphy at murfnmurf@hotmail.com wrote:

> Well,according to the MT Ref book, page 57, bottom left column under
> "volume", it states "Volume is measured in kiloliters, a kiloliter equals
> one cubic meter. Thus a cube that is one meter on a side has a volume of =
one
> kiloliter. A kiloliter contains 1,000 liters; 13.5 kiloliters equals one =
ton
> of displacement"
> Okay, here we go...On page 85 of the MT Ref book, top left column under
> "Loaded Weight", it states "to compute the average weight of a full cargo
> hold,multiply the volume of the hold in kiloliters by 1,000kg (one metric
> ton)."
> There you go!
> -Ken-
>=20

Thank you!

I don't use MT, and CT gives rather short shrift to this.

So for shipping purposes, one metric ton of cargo (average) occupies one
kiloliter, or in other words, one dton of cargo space can hold 13.5 metric
tons of cargo mass.  Boy, that's confusing.

So the assumption is that the 'average' cargo has about the density of wate=
r
(1gm/cc at STP).  Thus a theoretical 1 ton container would be 1 stere in
volume. =20

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 01:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Azalais Malfoy)
Date: Fri Aug 30 00:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
In-Reply-To: <F11Ie36zuYKpF3SJjzd00016c5d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10208300051290.22727-100000@shell.tsoft.com>

On Fri, 30 Aug 2002, Ken Murphy wrote:

>    Okay, here we go...On page 85 of the MT Ref book, top left column under 
> "Loaded Weight", it states "to compute the average weight of a full cargo 
> hold,multiply the volume of the hold in kiloliters by 1,000kg (one metric 
> ton)."

I always knew I weighed more loaded...
**************************************************************************
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect
and love your darkest side, disposing only of what is obsolete or
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission." --Jack Darkhand

"It is better to be cruel for love than for hate." --Thomas Burnett Swann


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 02:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri Aug 30 01:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
References: <20020830025904.25806.41892.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D6F2B5E.25A7FA59@ameritech.net>

> Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 19:24:15 -0700
> From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
> To: <tml@travellercentral.com>
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> on 8/29/02 4:29 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:

<snip>

> > So, to answer your question, 1 ton of cargo IMTU is 14.5
> > cubic meters, regardless of mass (within the structural
> > limits of your cargo bay).
> 
> ???
> 
> Therefore and empty ship and a ship with a full load of cargo have 
> the same acceleration? assuming all other factors are equal (maneuver
> drive, ship's mass, powerplant, etc)?
> 
> Does anyone else see anything wrong with this?

Not particularly. The maneuver drive is already a reactionless thruster
so it doesn't stretch my suspension of disbelief much farther to just
assume that mass and density are irrelevant to it's proper operation. 

Please note however that I do see your objection and that it's a valid
point. If ignoring mass creates a suspension of disbelief problem for
you or your group then by all means please feel free to base maneuver
drive performance on weight instead of volume. MT gives 1000
kg/kiloliter (13.5 metric tonnes per DTon) as average cargo densities.
TNE uses 250 kg/kiloliter (3.5 tonnes per DTon) which strikes me as a
more reasonable average figure.

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 02:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Long)
Date: Fri Aug 30 01:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Digest # 1001
Message-ID: <001201c25002$bead99c0$790001d5@MakaiSoft.com>

I have received copies of digest # 1001

Thanks to all who responded

Andy

--
 Andrew Long            Email   AndrewGLong@Yahoo.com (Preferred)
 1 Court Hill                   AndyLong@Ecossetel.com
 Taunton                Phone   +44 (7817) 533382 (Mobile/UK)
 TA1 4SX                        +44 (1823) 337322 (Home/UK)
 England                        (+971 (50) 521 3651 Mobile/UAE)
--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 03:30:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John Strain)
Date: Fri Aug 30 02:30:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Absent Friends
References: <20020829190005.14281.28306.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <011801c25008$8a247240$59a95940@dixienet.com>

My Dear Sirs, and Madam,

When did this occurr? The xboat traffic has beem amiss herabouts
recently....

John Strain



From: "Fred Ramen" Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 13:38:41 -0400Subject: [TML] Re:
Absent Friends

It is a tribute the the General's memory that his passing ... Mr.
Stafford... The Bari Z. Stafford Sr. Memorial Turokan Roundup.
Fred Ramen




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 04:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Long)
Date: Fri Aug 30 03:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Selling the Brooklyn Bridge
In-Reply-To: <20020829220105.18850.52380.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <002001c2500f$b63a49c0$790001d5@MakaiSoft.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 13:36:03 -0700
> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>
<Snip>
>
> I remember an old cyberpunk-ish short story about a guy brokering the
> sale of the Brooklyn Bridge for some massively rich Japanese
> industrialist.
>
> Much of the subtext was the broker trying not to laugh at the
> guy while
> selling him the Brooklyn Bridge.
>
> The punchline was the gift that the businessman gave him on
> completion
> of the deal: a perfectly molded brick, made of real gold.
>
> Perhaps in one of the Dangerous Visions anthologies?? New Worlds
> anthologies?
>
I think it was in Analog. In fact, I think I may still have a copy. I'll try
to find it...

Andy

--
 Andrew Long            Email   AndrewGLong@Yahoo.com (Preferred)
 1 Court Hill                   AndyLong@Ecossetel.com
 Taunton                Phone   +44 (7817) 533382 (Mobile/UK)
 TA1 4SX                        +44 (1823) 337322 (Home/UK)
 England                        (+971 (50) 521 3651 Mobile/UAE)
--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 04:34:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew Long)
Date: Fri Aug 30 03:34:05 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Someone else having a go at the Scout/Courier
In-Reply-To: <20020829220105.18850.52380.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <002101c25010$9b2b4c00$790001d5@MakaiSoft.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com>
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 17:44:18 -0400
> Subject: [TML] Someone else having a go at the Scout/Courier
> Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> 
> This was posted to the Deckplans mailing list recently,
> and I thought people here might want a look at it,
> it's a fine-looking starship.
> 
> http://www.scifi-meshes.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1067
> 
> The artist intends to follow with deckplans, cutaways,
> and other renderings...I'm looking forward to it.

Is Scarecrow one of us? If not, why not?

Andy

--
 Andrew Long            Email   AndrewGLong@Yahoo.com (Preferred)
 1 Court Hill                   AndyLong@Ecossetel.com
 Taunton                Phone   +44 (7817) 533382 (Mobile/UK)
 TA1 4SX                        +44 (1823) 337322 (Home/UK)
 England                        (+971 (50) 521 3651 Mobile/UAE)
--


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 04:38:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug 30 03:38:04 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
In-Reply-To: <B9946929.6B9A2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B9946929.6B9A2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m34rdcd470.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> 
> But, as I stated before, we've managed to build machines, bridges
> and a host of other constructs, and even go to the moon using basic
> Newtonian physics.

Physicians managed to heal patients with the Galenic system.  Food
managed to be preserved under the theory of humours.  Yet now we think
it's quite silly to use that who system for anything.  I daresay that
at the beginning of things, it was considered one thing to ponder the
new learning, and another entirely to stop thinking of humours &c.

I have an incredibly hard time believing that in that far future (not
in my lifetime, indeed, not in the lifetime of any who remember the
name Robert Uhl), our current system will _not_ have been completely
overthrown, and considered a simple curiosity.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The South oppressed 30% of its population.  The Union oppressed 100%
of of the South's population.  Think about it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 04:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Brian Caball)
Date: Fri Aug 30 03:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
In-Reply-To: <m34rdcd470.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
References: <B9946929.6B9A2%webmaster@travellercentral.com> <m34rdcd470.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <0208301056440U.21110@avlendris>

On Friday 30 August 2002 10:35, you wrote:
> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> > But, as I stated before, we've managed to build machines, bridges
> > and a host of other constructs, and even go to the moon using basic
> > Newtonian physics.
>
> Physicians managed to heal patients with the Galenic system.  Food
> managed to be preserved under the theory of humours.  Yet now we think
> it's quite silly to use that who system for anything.  I daresay that
> at the beginning of things, it was considered one thing to ponder the
> new learning, and another entirely to stop thinking of humours &c.
>
> I have an incredibly hard time believing that in that far future (not
> in my lifetime, indeed, not in the lifetime of any who remember the
> name Robert Uhl), our current system will _not_ have been completely
> overthrown, and considered a simple curiosity.

Well, no, i'd dissagree with this... 

Humours etc., is just *wrong*. Newtonian Physics, however, has not been shown 
to be "wrong" by Relativity or Quantum mechanics, but rather that it does not 
aply in these specific (and rather extreme) areas. We are not likely to find 
many more areas where Newtonian physics does not apply where we think it does 
today... rather that the extremes of Quantum mechanics and Relativity will be 
refined (such as quantum gravity). 

For all areas where it applies (most engineering, space travel, teaching 
physics in school), Newtonian Physics is not only acceptable but prefered: 
the added complexity of Relativity and Quantum mechanics are not needed. 

-Brian

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 05:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Schwartz)
Date: Fri Aug 30 04:10:02 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
In-Reply-To: <200208300254.NVO02253@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020830070120.040ab320@mail.comcast.net>

At 10:54 PM 8/29/2002, you wrote:
>Tod Glenn says
> >Therefore and empty ship and a ship with a full load of
> >cargo have the same acceleration? assuming all other factors
> >are equal (maneuver drive, ship's mass, powerplant, etc)?
> >
> >Does anyone else see anything wrong with this?
>
>I'm not accelerating the ship or its cargo.  I'm bending the
>local space, just as the planet bends space with its mass.
>The amount of energy required to do the bending is
>independent of the mass "falling up".  Gravity is not a force
>transmitted from one object to another - if I'm falling to
>Earth, it's because the space is curved, and I'm obeying the
>curve instantly (ever wonder why the Earth never runs out of
>gravitational force?).
>
>The book "A Journey Into Gravity and Spacetime" by Wheeler
>has several interesting thought experiments that involve no
>near-c velocities - it's all done here on Earth.  There are
>major, major holes in Newton.


I can see this either way:

If the M-Drive is a machine that has a rating stenciled on the side that 
says, "This unit produces X Newtons of force", then adding mass to the ship 
by sticking stuff in the cargo bay would reduce the acceleration.

If the M-Drive is a machine that has a rating stenciled on the side that 
says, "This unit generates an interaction between the gravity well of this 
ship and the gravity well of anything near by", then you could make the 
case that the heavier the ship is, the more Newtons of thrust the M-drive 
effectively produces.

The second case would explain, in a way, why M-Drives in the LBB only care 
about the displacement of the ship: that's the volume of the "field of 
effect" the M-drive needs to generate to be able to grab the whole ship and 
its contents.

Based on the hints of Boeing's GRASP project 
(http://www.danrosenbaum.com/ote/2002/07/30.html#a236) , there's 
implications that the second case is closer to the real-world one.  From 
what I understand of Podkletnov's work, the power consumption is based on 
the amount of acceleration desired, not on the mass of the object. In other 
words, X amount of power lifts x% of the mass of the object, no matter what 
the mass is.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 05:20:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Schwartz)
Date: Fri Aug 30 04:20:02 2002
Subject: [TML] This sounds like....
In-Reply-To: <B9946B6B.6B9A6%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020830043145.95329.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020830071829.0406cd30@mail.comcast.net>

>
>Yes, but as I pointed out, if you can create a distortion in the curvature
>space that normally requires the mass of a decent sized planet, and do it
>with something like a small trader, you've got other issues with your
>universe.  Consider for a moment what kind of energy that would require (to
>bend space).  The values are so large as to be mind boggling.


Wouldn't this be a  Black Globe Generator? 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 05:30:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Aug 30 04:30:02 2002
Subject: History Re: [TML] The guys that beat the Romans (ObTrav?)
References: <20020830025904.25806.41892.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <003301c25019$1aa635a0$b9b18b90@computer>

From: Listmom
> One best preserved for another list.  As this topic is verging on One of
> The Forbidden Topics, we should bring this right back to Traveller or end
> it before things get unpleasant.

Listmom is wise. Not all-knowing, but wise. : )

I officially apologise for my contribution to taking the list too close to a
well-known flame topic.

> From: Paul Walker
> Regardless of whether he is right or wrong, and
> whether you believe him or not, you have to admire his
> Patriotic Nationalism.

: )

> ObTrav:
> Obviously, the Terran Confederation wouldn't teach
> about their defeats.  Are there any official records
> of the Imperium acknowledging defeat?  What about the
> other empires and their teaching of history?

Now here is a real topic. 'Spinning' history is a real activity, of course.

One of the more fun things to do in the TU is to see how much you can
subvert the canonical historical accounts without directly contradicting
them. This can create lots of fun scenarios. For example, what if the Aslan
didn't actually invent Jump Drive by themselves... Oops, that was a direct
contradiction... Oh well, you know what I mean.

I've been having a bit of fun contemplating various Solomani attempts to
incite a revolt in Gateway during the Solomani Rim War. It would be just
exactly what the Imperium needed if a revolt had happened in a nice secure
rear area while most of the fleet was off fighting the Sollies.

And if you add Styryx into the mixture, you can muck about with Jacobite and
Napoleonic imagery. Very nice. But of course, none of this ever happened
canonically, did it?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 05:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug 30 04:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] re: Prevalence of grav vehicles
In-Reply-To: <3D6EDDD1.4000108@usisp.com>
References: <E17jVbt-0006fB-00@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>
 <3D6B505D.7000702@usisp.com> <m3znv7gvom.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
 <3D6EDDD1.4000108@usisp.com>
Message-ID: <m3vg5sbmzy.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

richard honeycutt <richard@usisp.com> writes:
>
> Why assume that OS's in the future will be secure?

Because it's really not that hard a problem.  The problem is piss-poor
programmers and languages, not any technical aspect of security.  The
OpenBSD project went some 6 years before a remote root exploit was
found--extend that to thousands of years of development, and I think
that things'll be pretty good.

Of course, this only really applies if technology is a process of
continual improvement upon a codebase (as in free software), and not a
process of continual re-write and re-design (as in most, if not all,
proprietary software).  The sooner everything is GPLed, the sooner
it'll be secure.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`Genetically' we are nearly identical to fruit flies.  On the
other hand, as a species we write better string quartets.
                                          --Rich Clancey

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 05:38:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rupert Boleyn)
Date: Fri Aug 30 04:38:15 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
In-Reply-To: <3D6F2B5E.25A7FA59@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <3D7001A8.21231.B2934E@localhost>

On 30 Aug 2002 at 3:22, David Shayne wrote:

> Please note however that I do see your objection and that it's a valid
> point. If ignoring mass creates a suspension of disbelief problem for
> you or your group then by all means please feel free to base maneuver
> drive performance on weight instead of volume. MT gives 1000
> kg/kiloliter (13.5 metric tonnes per DTon) as average cargo densities.
> TNE uses 250 kg/kiloliter (3.5 tonnes per DTon) which strikes me as a
> more reasonable average figure.

It does? I've missed that bit over and over. I always assumed 1 ton per 
1 m^3, on the basis that modern containers that fall off ships seem to 
have about the same density as sea water - they float awash and are 
quite effective at sinking yachts.

-- 
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

Military Intelligence
...is a highly refined organisation of overwhelming generalities based
on vague assumptions and debatable figures drawn from undisclosed
activities pursued by persons of diverse motivation and questionable
mentality in the midst of unimaginable confusion.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 05:42:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug 30 04:42:09 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
In-Reply-To: <B9946E9C.6B9AA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B9946E9C.6B9AA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m3r8ggbmr4.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> 
> The again, being able to generate and/or manipulate gravity has
> implications that I'm certain the Mark and the other writers never
> considered.  They just wanted people to be able to walk around
> inside of spaceships (plot device) just like they did on all the
> scifi shows (excepting always 2001, one of very few scifi movies
> that even attempted to be accurate).

If artificial gravity is impossible or impractical (e.g. rotating
space statons), I think that the likelihood of space colonisation and
trade is fairly low, too.  Spending the majority of one's life at zero
G is not going to be very good for one...

> Certainly, with gravity control there is really no reason to have
> factories in space.

No physical reason, certainly.  But there may be political or trade
reasons.  It may end up being cheaper, if ground->orbit is cheap
enough.

> For that matter, why even bother to build orbital starports.
> Contragrav (or whatever you want to call it) removes any advantages
> of highports.

I'm not certain about that.  Automobile trucks did not remove the
advantages of sea-ports.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I have a love for coding.  I have a love for staying up for days at a
time living off of Tea and Cigarettes, doing nothing but wearing the
letters off of the keys in front of my computer.  My bills have a love
for being paid on time.                                 --Jace of Fuse!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 05:45:55 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Schwartz)
Date: Fri Aug 30 04:45:55 2002
Subject: [TML] The whole mass/force/accel thing
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020830071829.0406cd30@mail.comcast.net>
References: <B9946B6B.6B9A6%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <20020830043145.95329.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020830073457.00a4d190@mail.comcast.net>

Check out : http://www.inetarena.com/~noetic/pls/podlev.html

and skip down to :

"Note that the magnetic flux density applied across the radius of the 
superconductor is above the lower critical field (Bc1) for YBCO which is ~ 
60 gauss. This implies that flux vortices should be formed which run 
horizonally through the radius of the disk. This also implies using the 
Li/Torr theory [6] for the generation of a gravitomagnetic field by the 
coherent rotation of lattice ions, that a Bg field with a radial component 
should be generated. Assuming that this is large outside the disk (which is 
highly speculative), and that there exists a gravitational analog of the 
Lorentz force [7]

F = m * (Eg + v x Bg) (3)

where m is the mass of a test sample, Eg is the normal gravitational pull 
of the Earth plus possibly an induced gravitoelectric field, v is the 
velocity of the test sample relative to the superconductor, and Bg is the 
gravitomagnetic field generated by the rotating ions. This should generate 
a vertically oriented force on a test sample, since v points in the 
direction of a tangent to the circumference of the disk, Bg points 
radially, and thus their cross product points vertically. This is exactly 
what Podkletnov has reported: the vertical change in apparent weight of an 
object. "


Note that the force produced is based on the mass of the test sample.... 
the heavier the test sample mass, the more force produced.

The implication here is that the mass in the cargo bay of a anti-grav or 
grav-shielded ship is not relevant to the acceleration of the ship.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 05:49:44 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 30 04:49:44 2002
Subject: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles: canon
Message-ID: <b73791b74b3b.b74b3bb73791@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Eris Reddoch <erisred@telocity.com>
Date: Thursday, August 29, 2002 6:46 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Prevalence of grav vehicles: canon

> 
<<snip>>
> 
> There is a sport, IMTU, where a pair of wings and a single grav 
> module 
> allow the wearer to fly like a bird...or drop like a rock...*that* 
> is 
> for the truely adventurious. <g>

In other words, it's either like a rock or like a roc.... ;-)




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 05:55:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug 30 04:55:12 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
In-Reply-To: <0208301056440U.21110@avlendris>
References: <B9946929.6B9A2%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <m34rdcd470.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> <0208301056440U.21110@avlendris>
Message-ID: <m3n0r4bmi2.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Brian Caball <boc@raidtec.ie> writes:
> 
> Humours etc., is just *wrong*.  Newtonian Physics, however, has not
> been shown to be "wrong" by Relativity or Quantum mechanics, but
> rather that it does not aply in these specific (and rather extreme)
> areas.

All theories are wrong to some extent.  Kwon has posted datato the
effect that Newtonian physics is _wrong_ when determining Mercury's
orbit.  That's a fairly significant error, don't you think?

Science is not about what right and wrong, correct and incorrect; it's
about approximations and working models.  It's not even about what
_is_.  It may actually be that heavenly bodies are carried aloft on
the backs of angels--science doesn't address that question.  What is
does do is note that, regardless of the mechanism by which they move,
they seem to follow certain rules, and thus it's likely that they will
continue to do so.

> We are not likely to find many more areas where Newtonian physics
> does not apply where we think it does today...

To me, that smacks of pure hubris.  There have been revolutions in
thought in the past, and will be in the future.  What if, for example,
it can be shown that reality is substantially subjective on a large
scale?  Is it even possible to demonstrate that, were it true?  Think
about it...

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
'Linux was made by foreign terrorists to take money from true US
 companies like Microsoft.'                         --some AOLer
'To this end we dedicate ourselves...'                     --Don

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 06:02:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark F Cook)
Date: Fri Aug 30 05:02:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Alternatives to Sobriety
Message-ID: <APLFFLBEFBHJBAAA@shared1-mail.whowhere.com>

Kelly St.Clair <kellys@efn.org> writes:

>Leslie Bates asked:
>
>>Mr. Berry, our primary adherent of Pengiunism, may have stumbled on to a
>>drink that is unique to the Traveller Universe. Which leads to the
>>question, how does one make a _bear_?
>
>Presumably it's some variation on a _____ Russian.

Well, let's see.  As a former bartender, I can
think of...

Koala Bear
  1 oz. Creme de Banana
  1 oz. Dark Creme de Cacao
  1-2 scoops Vanilla ice cream 

  Blend with ice, Garnish with Whipped cream
  & Sprinkle nutmeg

Russian Bear
  1 oz. Vodka
  1/2 oz. Creme de Coconut
  Cream

  Shake and serve on the Rocks

Gummy Bear 
  1/2 oz  Southern Comfort
  1/2 oz  Midori
  1/2 oz Amaretto
  1/2 oz Grenadine

  Fill rest of glass with pineapple and OJ
  on the rocks with a splash of 7-Up.


Dead Bear
  1/2 part Jack Daniels whiskey
  1/2 part Southern comfort whiskey
  1/2 part tequila
  1/2 part grain

  Pour over ice in a highball glass, or
  straight in a shot glass.

Polar Bear
  1 part Vodka
  1 part Soda (Sprite, 7-Up, etc.)
  1 part Blue Curacao

  Pour Blue Curacao into the cocktail glass
  followed by vodka, then soda.

Honey Bear
  2 oz Butterscotch Schnapps
  1 oz Bailey's Irish Cream
  1/2 oz Honey

  Layer Bailey's on top of Schnapps and a
  dollop of honey on top.

The list goes on and on.  There are plenty more
"bear" recipes out there.

    - Mark C.





Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 06:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 30 05:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The Secret of CG Revealed
Message-ID: <b8e6fab8b956.b8b956b8e6fa@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: John Scarlett <jlscarlett@earthlink.net>
Date: Friday, August 30, 2002 5:04 am
Subject: [TML] The Secret of CG Revealed

> Upsydaisyium.

Encased in a flubber matrix.

Personally, I've always preferred the cat-and-buttered-toast theory.

1.  Cats always land on their feet.

2.  Buttered toast always lands butter-side-down.

3.  Therefore, a cat with a slice of buttered toast strapped to its back 
would hang in the air spinning, due to the impossibility of the 
construct meeting both conditions 1 and 2 above.

The power input of Traveller CG modules is obviously required for cat 
life support.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 06:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug 30 05:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The whole mass/force/accel thing
Message-ID: <200208301258.NWI02268@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Jeff Schwartz says
>This is exactly what Podkletnov has reported: the vertical 
>change in apparent weight of an object. "
>
>
>Note that the force produced is based on the mass of the 
>test sample.... 
>the heavier the test sample mass, the more force produced.
>
>The implication here is that the mass in the cargo bay of a 
>anti-grav or grav-shielded ship is not relevant to the 
>acceleration of the ship.

Exactly.  And what Podkletnov is doing by "shielding" an 
object from the local gravitational field is 
essentially "pulling up" on the local spacetime where 
ordinarily the mass of a planet is "pulling down" on local 
spacetime.  It doesn't look like it's using an amount of 
energy comparable to a black hole to do it, either.
________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 08:00:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dave Strebe)
Date: Fri Aug 30 07:00:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The Secret of CG Revealed
References: <b8e6fab8b956.b8b956b8e6fa@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <02Aug30.072233pdt.119117@gw.city.vancouver.bc.ca>

> > Upsydaisyium.
>
> Encased in a flubber matrix.
>
> Personally, I've always preferred the cat-and-buttered-toast theory.
>
> 1.  Cats always land on their feet.
>
> 2.  Buttered toast always lands butter-side-down.
>
> 3.  Therefore, a cat with a slice of buttered toast strapped to its back
> would hang in the air spinning, due to the impossibility of the
> construct meeting both conditions 1 and 2 above.
>
> The power input of Traveller CG modules is obviously required for cat
> life support.

As the cat out masses the toast it makes purrfect logic that the toast will
re-orient it self to allow the cat (a supurrior being after all) to land on
its
feet thus not breaking any laws of Quantum Physics.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 08:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Aug 30 07:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Knowing and doing
Message-ID: <F152AitVGeSJIEoPXCF0000039e@hotmail.com>

From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

     "Yeah, their backward, peasant culture."


Mr. Johnson,

     Now I did NOT type that, nor did I mean to imply it.  I distinctly 
remember typing that Mexicans are not stupid and I strongly believe that to 
be the truth.  I've worked all over Mexico, seeing quite a bit more of that 
nation than the tourist enclaves most visitors never leave.  I'm sure you've 
seen the "real" Mexico too.
     I've dealt with a sharp group of people who aren't afraid of hard work. 
  The success of Mexican emigrants in the US is an indicator of this.  All 
the pieces seem to be there, so why haven't they jelled until recently?  
Culture.

     "Well, their culture and Mexican laws that were only passed later to 
encourage such development near the border."

     My point exactly.  When I mention "culture", I'm not just talking about 
cuisine, music, quaint native dress, etc.  I'm blathering about legal 
systems, tax mechanisms, government policies, the attitudes of the populace, 
the whole (forgive me) enchilada.
     Their "culture" in the 70's was different than their "culture" in the 
80's.  The laws that encouraged development along the borders could have 
been passed in the 70's, the 60's, even the 20's.  Those laws could have 
even been passed for the country as a whole, rather than
just a specific region.  That might have helped in Chiapas.

     "Had a Mexican National built such a factory in the 70's he still
wouldn't have been able to sell his product to GM-USA at the time, so what 
was the use?"

     Why did he have to sell to GM?  Why not his own countrymen?  Or the 
rest of Central America?  Or Europe?  Or the world?  Gee, I can't sell to 
one customer, so I might as well not bother with the whole project.  Does 
that sound like a culture of entrepreneurship to you?

     "NONE of this really took off until NAFTA passed, which was *HARDLY* a 
cultural thing."

     It's exactly a cultural thing!  Mexico ASKED to join the Canada-US 
trade agreement in the 80's.  Why didn't they ask earlier?  Why wasn't it 
already part of their foreign policy?  They could have had it for the asking 
during WW2, but they didn't bother.  What was different between the Mexican 
governments of the 60's and the Mexican governments of the 80's that allowed 
them to even broach the subject of NAFTA?

     "The business climate WASN'T favorable, in other words."

     The business climate is part and parcel of a nation's culture and, 
you're right, it wasn't favorable.  It became favorable AFTER the culture 
changed.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 08:12:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug 30 07:12:04 2002
Subject: [TML] The Secret of CG Revealed
Message-ID: <200208301409.NWK04008@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Dave Strebe says
>As the cat out masses the toast it makes purrfect logic that 
>the toast will re-orient it self to allow the cat (a 
>supurrior being after all) to land on its
>feet thus not breaking any laws of Quantum Physics.

I put two pieces of buttered toast back to back (unbuttered 
sides back to back) and secured them with a rubber band.

Thrown off the table, the toast combo fluttered in continuous 
rotation about 1 foot off the ground...
________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 08:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Schwartz)
Date: Fri Aug 30 07:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The whole mass/force/accel thing
In-Reply-To: <200208301258.NWI02268@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020830101357.00a9ab30@mail.comcast.net>

At 08:58 AM 8/30/2002, you wrote:
>Jeff Schwartz says
> >This is exactly what Podkletnov has reported: the vertical
> >change in apparent weight of an object. "
> >
> >
> >Note that the force produced is based on the mass of the
> >test sample....
> >the heavier the test sample mass, the more force produced.
> >
> >The implication here is that the mass in the cargo bay of a
> >anti-grav or grav-shielded ship is not relevant to the
> >acceleration of the ship.
>
>Exactly.  And what Podkletnov is doing by "shielding" an
>object from the local gravitational field is
>essentially "pulling up" on the local spacetime where
>ordinarily the mass of a planet is "pulling down" on local
>spacetime.  It doesn't look like it's using an amount of
>energy comparable to a black hole to do it, either.

Okay, so if we pretend/assume that Traveller uses this kind of tech for 
CG/M-Drive/Thruster Plates:


1)  Does this mean the entire "underside" of the ship has grav-shielding?
1a) Should deck plans have a smaller M-Drive, but a special low-headroom 
lower deck with the shielding equipment?

2) Does a ship lighting off it's M-Drive produce a huge E-M pulse?
2a) Does a ship running under M-Drive produce induced currents in objects 
nearby?
2b) Would the big magnetic field mess up compasses nearby?
2c) is this line of thought starting to sound like a bad UFO-Abduction movie?




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 08:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (DeGraff, Jesse)
Date: Fri Aug 30 07:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Someone else having a go at the Scout/Courier
Message-ID: <5D4EA4C196F27046B1E79E281B4CE4342A4790@SVLEXC04.hq.netapp.com>

Yes, he is (or was, haven't seen him in a while...)
Jesse

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andrew Long [mailto:AndrewGLong@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 3:33 AM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] RE: Someone else having a go at the Scout/Courier
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: "Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com>
> > To: tml@travellercentral.com
> > Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 17:44:18 -0400
> > Subject: [TML] Someone else having a go at the Scout/Courier
> > Reply-To: tml@travellercentral.com
> > 
> > This was posted to the Deckplans mailing list recently,
> > and I thought people here might want a look at it,
> > it's a fine-looking starship.
> > 
> > http://www.scifi-meshes.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1067
> > 
> > The artist intends to follow with deckplans, cutaways,
> > and other renderings...I'm looking forward to it.
> 
> Is Scarecrow one of us? If not, why not?
> 
> Andy
> 
> --
>  Andrew Long            Email   AndrewGLong@Yahoo.com (Preferred)
>  1 Court Hill                   AndyLong@Ecossetel.com
>  Taunton                Phone   +44 (7817) 533382 (Mobile/UK)
>  TA1 4SX                        +44 (1823) 337322 (Home/UK)
>  England                        (+971 (50) 521 3651 Mobile/UAE)
> --
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
> 

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 08:41:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Aug 30 07:41:05 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
In-Reply-To: <B9946E9C.6B9AA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020830143719.70246.qmail@web20908.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> 
> Certainly, with gravity control there is really no
> reason to have factories
> in space.  Put them down on a planet where it's more
> convenient and you
> don't have to deal with the harsh environment.  You
> just use grav technology
> to create a local microgravity environment.
> 
> For that matter, why even bother to build orbital
> starports.  Contragrav (or
> whatever you want to call it) removes any advantages
> of highports.  The list
> goes on and on.
> 

It depends on how concerned with shipping times you
are.  If you don't mind lowering your shipping vessels
into an atmosphere (oh, and you don't mind paying for
streamlining and/or airframe hull) then by all means,
put your factory and srarport on the ground.

Me, I'll run my liner to a highport (or better, a
100-D port) and offer my passengers a trip for less
travel time than you can.

And my shipping will be done a bit quicker and for
less money (no CG necessary & USL hull) so I will get
to market quicker than you and sell for less.

Paul

__________________________________________________
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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 08:45:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Aug 30 07:45:13 2002
Subject: History Re: [TML] The guys that beat the Romans (ObTrav?)
In-Reply-To: <003301c25019$1aa635a0$b9b18b90@computer>
Message-ID: <20020830144144.89878.qmail@web20909.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Alan Bradley <abradley1@bigpond.com> wrote:
> 
> Now here is a real topic. 'Spinning' history is a
> real activity, of course.
> 
> One of the more fun things to do in the TU is to see
> how much you can
> subvert the canonical historical accounts without
> directly contradicting
> them. This can create lots of fun scenarios. For
> example, what if the Aslan
> didn't actually invent Jump Drive by themselves...
> Oops, that was a direct
> contradiction... Oh well, you know what I mean.
> 
> I've been having a bit of fun contemplating various
> Solomani attempts to
> incite a revolt in Gateway during the Solomani Rim
> War. It would be just
> exactly what the Imperium needed if a revolt had
> happened in a nice secure
> rear area while most of the fleet was off fighting
> the Sollies.
> 
> And if you add Styryx into the mixture, you can muck
> about with Jacobite and
> Napoleonic imagery. Very nice. But of course, none
> of this ever happened
> canonically, did it?

Ooooh.  I like this.  Doesn't MT or CT say somewhere
that the Library Data is what the characters would
normally have access to?

How many years would it take for the people to believe
false history?  I mean obviously the current
generation would know what happened (assuming it was
reported accurately), but would their children or
grand children 30 to 60 years later?

Paul


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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 08:49:13 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Aug 30 07:49:13 2002
Subject: [TML] The guys that beat the Romans (ObTrav?)
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22ECB@USCHM203>

Well, all I know is that Scotland, or the land that became Scotland, was
most assuredly never conquered by the Romans. And it's a good thing, too, as
what state would the world be in without golf, kilts, haggis, scotch,
Groudskeeper Willie, and "Auld Lang Syne".


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 08:54:14 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Aug 30 07:54:14 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22ECC@USCHM203>

>"Mike West" <mjwest@caddocourt.com> wrote:

>That is the way CT works.  But then CT also gives us "magic missles"
>where missle racks and missle bays have an infinite supply of free
>missles.

Where? I must have missed this part of CT...24 years ago.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 08:58:15 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri Aug 30 07:58:15 2002
Subject: [TML] sheer handwave
In-Reply-To: <194.c6abfb6.2aa05f22@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020830145347.74278.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
>  >
>  >Regardless of whether he is right or wrong, and
>  >whether you believe him or not, you have to admire
> his
>  >Patriotic Nationalism.
> 
> Not when it's irrational.
> 
> And I don't think "patriotic nationalism" describes
> his position.

Oh how I'd love to reply to this, but Listmom is
right, it's too flammable.

 
>  >Obviously, the Terran Confederation wouldn't teach
>  >about their defeats.
> 
> They might.  It certainly would be hard to explain
> the fact that Terra is on 
> the Imperial side of the border without some mention
> of defeat.

That doesn't stop nations and governments from trying.
 Just because no one believes it doesn't mean the spin
isn't there (OJ Simpson?).

In any case, I think the Terrans, Vargr, and K'Kree
would be the biggest of the History Spinners.  Maybe
they don't deny their defeats, but just don't teach
it.  That is policy in several nations now.

The Zho's would, of course, share information honestly
with other psi's, but might keep information from
non-psi's.

The Aslan would consider it dishonorable to lie about
it.

The Hiver, heh, everything is spin with the Hiver.  I
mean, what can you say about the Hiver.  I think the
Hiver are the only race that would first spin History
in order to provoke a response from the younger Hivers
being taught and then point out the History spin as an
exercise in Manipulation.

Did I forget anyone?

Paul

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 09:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Rob Davenport)
Date: Fri Aug 30 08:05:02 2002
Subject: Future culture (was Re: [TML] The guys that beat the Romans time
 and time again...)
In-Reply-To: <200208291505.NUQ04597@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0208300717530.7771-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>

(Still catching up on TML, as usual)
On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, John T. Kwon wrote:

> Is it chauvinistic to assume that major cultural aspects of
> our current time remained intact over the millienia?

Human nature hasn't changed IMTU and I'm sure there are many things we
still have in common with ancient Egyptians due to that, but things like
"Baywatch-Mora" strike me as too much present-day culture than one would
find in the Marches (IMTU).  Of course it's still fun and serves as
a decent touchstone for players trying to imagine that future society.  It
could just be "well, that's not really what it's called but for us here
and now it's just what we'll call it in the game".  Depends on my mood I
guess how much these things get to me.

BUt I've wondered about this for a long time, and my favored approach has
been to view it as "history repeating itself" and trying to figure
out/rationalize (OK, 'handwave') how the culture described in canon is
remarkably similar to our own.  I'd love to see bits about how the culture
was different during various eras (I've liked my idea that pre-Civil War,
the Imperium was more aristocratic/romantic - more like pre-Victorian
Europe [my Hornblower/Aubrey-Maturin interest's influence] and that the
Civil War brought about many cultural reforms - making the Imperium more
'modern', leading to the 'current' culture seen in the canon, and leading
to the possibility of say, finding the flagship of an admiral from the
400s complete with the admiral's teak-wainscotted wardroom and fencing
gymnasium.  Other cultures and eras could be interesting - the mixture
period between Vilani and Terran in early RoM, later RoM and Long Night
etc. could all have distinct cultures that (to my mind) beg detailing.

Conversely, I've thought that the advent of easy/ubiquitous global
communications would have an effect similar to that of the printing press
on the English language, casting it into stone, warts and all (well,
porous stone), and that would also help keep the forming global culture
more uniform over time.  Add in the unifying effects of the Interstellar
Wars, the Vilani conservatism (after melding with the Terrans/Solomani),
and there could be a recipe for a fairly static culture over a long
period of time.  Maybe not 3000 years, but hey I'm waving my hands as fast
as they can go... :)

Rob





From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 09:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Aug 30 08:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] RE: Someone else having a go at the Scout/Courier
Message-ID: <3D6F93BB.26AF3F3B@mail.cswnet.com>

<snippage>

Hmmm, Nubian Type S Eh? It looks good. Needs some deckplans though.
I do love the common area pics!

> This was posted to the Deckplans mailing list recently,
> and I thought people here might want a look at it,
> it's a fine-looking starship.
> 
> http://www.scifi-meshes.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1067

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 11:01:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Walt Smith)
Date: Fri Aug 30 10:01:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: deckplans -- 200 ton merchant transport vessel
Message-ID: <F85I2iVWt0Q0W2ZyN0k0001a202@hotmail.com>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:>Subject: [TML]
>  >>A really great merchant transport vessel.
>  >
>  >"Really great"?  Methinks you should leave such
>  >descriptions to others. ;-)
>  >
>  >http://members.aol.com/exog/myhomepage/mcg2.html
>
>I like stating the obvious.

Whew.  In the interests of TML peace, I'll let this
pass without comment - beyond, of course, mentioning
that it was a statement that I had to work at to
let pass without comment. ;-)

>  >I think
>  >that the US Space Shuttle has plans for venting the
>  >compartment to space for fighting major fires - would
>  >vacuum be more hazardous to people than halon?
>
>The shuttle's tiny inhabited space

Note that you've divided this ship (except the
cargo bay) into "tiny inhabited spaces".
That should be the norm IMO, except for
unusual things like luxury liner promenade
decks.

Most canonical designs that mention it make
do with two firefighting methods - handheld
emergency extinguishers for small fires, and
computer-controlled temporary venting for
larger fires.  Add to this that everything on
the ship (except food and certain
passenger-compartment luxury decorations)
should be relatively fireproof.  I'm not saying
halon is a bad idea, just asking about the
alternatives.

>  >And what are the spaces marked 'g' again?
>
>Gear lockers.  It's hard to fit the word "gear" into
>a half-ton space.

Thanks.

>Between tools, spare parts, weapons, food, vacc
>suits, batteries, flashlights, hull-patching kits,
>first aid kits, welding equipment, jacks,
>electronic diagnostic equipment, gloves, wire, and
>so on, I try to make all my boats have at least 1%
>of their tonnage devoted to gear lockers if they
>have no ship's cargo space.

That's a reasonable concept for deckplan design.  Note
that deckplans can overall and for any particular detail
come within 10% and still be considered valid, so figure
(for example) that 10% of the allocated drive volume could
be things like access spaces, gear lockers, drive control
and monitoring stations, an engineering-area first aid
station, an oversize airlock for escape and rescue
situations, etc, etc...

>  >If so, the aft cargo area would be a
>  >good place to partition off as a cargo lock...and
>  >the cargo lock is a good place for an emergency
>  >escape hatch (which you have in that aft passenger
>  >stateroom) to pop out in.
>
>That would be desireable, and the original design did just that,
>but the cargo space is already small enough as it is.  I didn't
>want to infringe on it any more than I had to.

Not a problem - just intend in the design for the cargo
lock to be filled (with vacuum-tolerant cargo) last and
emptied first.  If the current voyage is from shirtsleeve
environment to shirtsleeve enviroment (planet surface to
planet surface), you could even use it as regular cargo
space, while preserving in the design the option to
trade with poorly-equipped vacuum worlds.

You might want to put an extendible partition across
part of the cargo bay anyway - it's common to have
some cargo need one environment and the rest need
another, if you're on small enough routes that
everything isn't controlled-environment containerized.

>  >Or are there a couple of landing
>  >legs inside them?  What kind of landing gear
>  >are you envisioning?
>
>Just simple rigid keel skids, with the vessel setting straight
>down either by gravitics or by re-directed maneuver drive.
>Neither merchant vessel in Supplement 7 has any provision for
>landing gear, but seem to park directly on the ground.  The
>Erin does too.

The Subsidized Merchant from Supp 7 uses landing legs - they
get special mention because they're articulared, allowing
the craft to "crouch" for easy cargo loading, but "stand
up straight" for easy maintenance access to the underside.
The front legs don't show up on the plans, but the port
and starboard legs are there - I think there's even
a way into the ship through the aft gear wells.

Skids are fine, and in some ways make more real-world
physics sense than landing legs - the ground pressure
on a canonical scout's "feet" has been calculated by
listmembers as some interestingly high number.

>  >Does this ship have onboard fuel treatment, or is
>  >it intended for work in more civilized areas?
>
>The area marked "pur" is the fuel purification equipment.
>Again, I get so used to seeing it that I failed to say so
>in the write-up.

Thanks...I find that a standardized map key (like they
use in the LBB's) might be a good time-saver.

>  >Again the same design for multiple tech levels, but
>  >it strikes me that you may not be allowing for the
>  >higher fuel requirements of a power-plant 3 over a
>  >power-plant 2 - yes, a TL 9-12 PP2 fits in the same
>  >space as a TL 13-14 PP3, but the PP3 is going to need
>  >150% as much fuel.
>
>Both versions generate four energy points, using four tons of fuel.
>The tech 13-14 version simply allows a choice between m2 without energy 
>weapons and m1 with energy weapons, while tech 9-12 only
>allows m1 with energy weapons.

I'm still not getting it.

I thought you meant that the TL9-12 ship was using 6 tons
of space for a PP2/4EP, while the TL13-14 ship could fit
a PP3/6EP plant in the same space.  This would get you
1EP for the laser and 5EP left for the agility - enough
for agility-2, but it would require another ton spent
on fuel.

Are you saying that you meant both are using a PP2/4EP
plant, but by your reading there's something about
TL9-12 that doesn't allow a choice of how the EP are spent?

>Thanks again.  I'll make the write-up corrections and
>probably redo the aft turret placement.  I should both
>turrets on the outboard bulkheads of the aft fuel nacelles.

Might want to think about how the turrets are accessed
during flight for maintenance, repair and manual control.
They ought to be on an outboard bulkhead with people
on the other side of it.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 11:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas R Glatz)
Date: Fri Aug 30 10:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The defining moment in TL change
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 29 Aug 2002 12:12:34 EDT."
 <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22EBF@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <200208301716.g7UHG2E02920@catenary.cesa.opbu.xerox.com>

> However, this is a Terra-norm world, desirable for colonization.
> What about one not so desirable? Or with little of value to trade.
> In this case the Terrans, both government and private sector, aren't going
> to make the effort, and what hi-tech items do trickle in from time to time
> will be rare.


In Uller Uprising (another Piper story), the Uller company has to take on the 
development of another world, one that is very undesirable, in order to get 
development rights on Uller.

Having said that, however, Cosmic Computer and Four Day Planet both are good 
stories about planets that are left to fend for themselves, because it 
developing them would cost to much for the Federation.

douglas



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 11:22:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Schwartz)
Date: Fri Aug 30 10:22:07 2002
Subject: [TML] Halon?
In-Reply-To: <F85I2iVWt0Q0W2ZyN0k0001a202@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020830131957.043aa930@mail.comcast.net>

>Most canonical designs that mention it make
>do with two firefighting methods - handheld
>emergency extinguishers for small fires, and
>computer-controlled temporary venting for
>larger fires.  Add to this that everything on
>the ship (except food and certain
>passenger-compartment luxury decorations)
>should be relatively fireproof.  I'm not saying
>halon is a bad idea, just asking about the
>alternatives.


The thought crosses my mind:

Here-and-now, after the Halon floods the computer room, there's a whole 
dance with fans to clear the place out before people go in.

(Just as Halon displaces O2 in fire-fighting, hemoglobin is more fond of 
Halon than O2... which makes it bad ju-ju to be huffing.)

So.... What's the SOP for getting rid of Halon after firefighting aboard ship?

And if the answer is "vent to space" --- why not just vent-to-space to 
begin with? 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 11:40:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Fri Aug 30 10:40:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Halon?
Message-ID: <E17kpjp-0005Tr-00@fifi.runbox.com>

Also the problem that Halon, when exposed to high temperatures, has some to=
xic byproducts.  I hope that by the time of OTU there would be a better rep=
lacement.
IMTU it is Hivon 243, my own creation.  Use as you wish.

"Hivon 243:  Hivon 243 is a heat reactive, fire fighting foam that can be s=
prayed on to a small fire or the whole can tossed directly into a larger fi=
re.  When heated to 100C plus, the foam will expand, bursting the can non-e=
xplosively, to cover a 10 square meter area with a flame suppressant foam. =
 After 4 hours, the foam residue will break-down, leaving only a fine powde=
r.  Mass of a spray can: 350gm  Cost: Cr30"

Beth

<snip>.
>=20
>=20
> The thought crosses my mind:
>=20
> Here-and-now, after the Halon floods the computer room, there's a whole=
=20
> dance with fans to clear the place out before people go in.
>=20
> (Just as Halon displaces O2 in fire-fighting, hemoglobin is more fond of=
=20
> Halon than O2... which makes it bad ju-ju to be huffing.)
>=20
> So.... What's the SOP for getting rid of Halon after firefighting aboard =
ship?
>=20
> And if the answer is "vent to space" --- why not just vent-to-space to=20
> begin with?=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>=20

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 11:58:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri Aug 30 10:58:03 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
References: <B9946E9C.6B9AA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D6FB206.2080908@telocity.com>

Tod Glenn wrote:

>Certainly, with gravity control there is really no reason to have factories
>in space.  Put them down on a planet where it's more convenient and you
>don't have to deal with the harsh environment.  You just use grav technology
>to create a local microgravity environment.
>

Yes, within a small area.  Within domed and underground habitats 
atmosphere and humidity are controllable...and, perhaps, so is gravity. 
 Perhaps, there are even "ancient" devices buried deep within some 
smaller worlds that increase the general gravity to levels where they 
can support a much thicker atmosphere than they normall could...no, I 
wouldn't want to over use this, and I'd certainly make such devices 
unreproducable at "current levels of technology", but such devices would 
be fair game in Traveller.

>For that matter, why even bother to build orbital starports.  Contragrav (or
>whatever you want to call it) removes any advantages of highports.
>

Yes, and Highports are few and far between IMTU, and from what I've read 
of Traveller (and that's a lot) they aren't *all* that common in the OTU 
either.  Some folks like them, but in my games the PC's will almost 
always land their ship on a world somewhere.  Orbital ports exist, here 
and there, to handle open frame ships and overflows, but most ship 
traffic still lands on the planet.

>The list goes on and on.
>

That it does!  However, if you make gravity control a very short range 
effect and tack on other limitations it falls into an acceptable "magic" 
for MTU.

IMTU, specifically, the use of gravitic technology is extremely 
important, but it comes at a price. Gravitics plays merry havoc on 
microelectronics, reducing both the reliability and life of electronic 
parts.  The more miniturized the device, the more trouble it has. So, 
this means any electronic device has to be heavily shielded, is 
expensive,  has a short MTBF, uses more power, and is much bigger than 
you would expect.

Eris


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 12:45:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hurrel, Brian)
Date: Fri Aug 30 11:45:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The defining moment in TL change
Message-ID: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22ED0@USCHM203>

>Douglas R Glatz <douglasg@cesa.opbu.xerox.com> wrote:

>Having said that, however, Cosmic Computer and Four Day Planet both are
good 
>stories about planets that are left to fend for themselves, because it 
>developing them would cost to much for the Federation.

Piper should be required reading for Traveller players.
For the record, in Cosmic Computer, on the planet Poictesme, the Terran
Federation left behind enough weapons, combat vehicles, and nuclear warheads
to outfit the present day US Armed Forces with plenty to spare. Much of it
was sealed in hidden bunkers for future use or as forard positioning.
The war at the time, known as the System States War, ended rather abruptly,
and none of the equipment was ever needed.
The cost of removing this massive amount of ordnace was deemed more costly
than the equipment was worth, and the Federation simply abandoned everything
in place.
The locals make a living "prospecting" for hidden stores, bunkers, and
warheads.
One of the main motivations of the central character is to get the people of
his planet to shift from scavenging to production and technological
education, realizing that the planet's infrastructure is falling into
disrepair. He also motivates them to reopen an abandoned shipyard to outfit
their own ships.
Without ships, the locals are selling tons of weaponry to outworld merchants
for a fraction of what the merchants will get for them on other worlds.
Under the guise of searching for a fabled "Cosmic Computer", the character
goads every sector of the planet's economy into productive action.
Interestingly, I wouldn't know how to classify the tech level of the
world.TL-11, I guess. There are tons of TL-11 or so weapons, vehicles,
equipment, computers, light bulbs, and clothing, but not a single item is
manufactured locally. It is all salvaged.
Even evening gowns are made from material scavenged from crated military
uniforms.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 12:49:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Aug 30 11:49:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Knowing and doing
References: <F152AitVGeSJIEoPXCF0000039e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D6FBD62.3070100@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
> 
>     "Yeah, their backward, peasant culture."
> 
> 
> Mr. Johnson,
> 
>     Now I did NOT type that, nor did I mean to imply it.  I distinctly 
> remember typing that Mexicans are not stupid and I strongly believe that 
> to be the truth.  I've worked all over Mexico, seeing quite a bit more 
> of that nation than the tourist enclaves most visitors never leave.  I'm 
> sure you've seen the "real" Mexico too.
>     I've dealt with a sharp group of people who aren't afraid of hard 
> work.  The success of Mexican emigrants in the US is an indicator of 
> this.  All the pieces seem to be there, so why haven't they jelled until 
> recently?  Culture.

On retrospect, Mr. Larsen, that was a sharp, utterly unfair comment 
without any provocation whatsoever.

Mea culpa, and I'm very sorry! I have no excuse.

The crux of our disagreement here is that we're using different meanings 
for the word 'culture'.

You're speaking of an all-encompassing set, including politics, 
economics, attitudes, and foreign relations, whereas I'm speaking of the 
externalization of internal behavorial norms, eg: what it is to be 
Mexican, and how that affects your behavior.

Individuals are affected to a greater or lesser extent by their culture, 
in how they behave publically and privately, and it affects what 
decisions they make.

Self-interest plays a strong role as well, and is what usually provides 
for the tension between individual desires and cultural expectations; 
grist for nearly all the fiction ever written as well as much of our 
experience as human beings.

States are affected by the concrete steps taken by their people or 
leaders, perhaps in response to their cultural norms, perhaps not.

States are also affected by the concrete steps that *other* states do, 
with or without their input. This is particularly true in the case of 
Mexico vis-a-vis the United States.

The reason the Mexicanm government did not become part of a pan-North 
American trade agreement befor the 80's was largely the same reason it 
was debated so sharply when they did join in the 80's: they feared total 
economic dominance by the wealthier United States and the very real 
prospect of essentially losing control over their own country because of it.

As the US was (for much of the 20th century until then) in the habit of 
simply replacing (oten at Marine gunpoint) governments it didn't like 
with ones it did, merely made them even more nervous about it.

Remember...the PRI was the party of Pancho Villa; we'd already sent 
Blackjack Pershing roving into Mexico after him.

Mexico also has a far longer memory of being used as an imperialist pawn 
than we do, and they haven't forgotten that they've fought (and lost) 
wars with the US, and that the greater part of the history between 
Mexico and the US is the US taking territory away from them by force of 
arms, or the threat therof. (I *live* in the Gadsen Purchase; it was a 
purchase in name only, contracts signed with a gun to their head.)

The main problem with Mexico's recent history, economic and political, 
has been pretty much the same problem it's always had (in common with 
far too much of the world): some tiny group of wealthy landowners 
controlling the greater portion of the country, alternating between the 
carrot of subsidy and the stick of repression to keep the majority down.

This rarely bodes well for devlopment of a modern, diversified economy.

Until recently it was the PRI kingpins who were the tiny majority. Note 
that people have finally managed to break it's stranglehold on political 
power; now the struggle is to rebuild Mexico's economy from it's 
shambles of being state-run to a modern, working free market, without 
simply spawning the *next* tiny group of wealthy landowners running the 
country as if it were their own private estate.

That's the only thing that will ever stanch the flow of immigrants here 
(something, subject to another OT essay, that I'm not entirely sure is 
such a good thing to wish for...)

(Witness Russia. All that's really happened is that one set of masters 
has been replaced by another, many the *same* masters, with just a 
different name.

If there is ever a textbook example of how NOT to help a country 
transition from dictatorship with a controlled economy to open democracy 
with free markets, Russia is it.

As the victors of the Cold War, and apparently forgetting *everything* 
we learned after WWII, we approached Russia wrapped in the ideology of 
'Free Market Magic' as the only thing needed, headed by people who 
fervently believed their own dogma that "Government doesn't solve 
problems, it is the problem."

As a result, Russia is a shambles, a fermenting mixture of strategic 
nuclear weapons, grinding poverty for nearly everyone, and a new ruling 
class composed of communist oligarchs and russian mafiosi, who are, not 
surprisingly, running the country as if it were their own estate...

We invested *hugely* in Germany and Japan, post WWII, and it's paid off 
handsomely. Something to think about.)

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 13:05:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Schwartz)
Date: Fri Aug 30 12:05:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The defining moment in TL change
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22ED0@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020830150308.043d0b60@mail.comcast.net>

At 02:44 PM 8/30/2002, you wrote:
> >Douglas R Glatz <douglasg@cesa.opbu.xerox.com> wrote:
>
> >Having said that, however, Cosmic Computer and Four Day Planet both are
>good
> >stories about planets that are left to fend for themselves, because it
> >developing them would cost to much for the Federation.
>
>Piper should be required reading for Traveller players.


It is a crying shame that Piper wasn't a GM for a Traveller game....

Mmmm... Now that would rock.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 13:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Fri Aug 30 12:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
References: <B994255F.6B923%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D6FC448.6707D583@mindspring.com>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> on 8/29/02 4:29 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
> 
> > Here is where I will use John Wheeler, and his explanation of
> > gravity, and take your Newtonian view and dispense with it.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> John.  You're letting theory interfere with reality.  For cases in which we
> are not dealing with a significant fraction of the speed of light, good old
> Newtonian physics works just fine.  And can be verified experimentally.
> Never mind that we define force as mass times acceleration.  I don't think
> anyone would suggest that we adopt a view of physics that doesn't agree with
> what can be verified experimentally, not to mention that we aren't even
> dealing with gravity or jump in any case.
> 
> The question posited was what is the size/mass of the standard Imperial ton
> of cargo.
> >
> > So, to answer your question, 1 ton of cargo IMTU is 14.5
> > cubic meters, regardless of mass (within the structural
> > limits of your cargo bay).
> 
> ???
> 
> Therefore and empty ship and a ship with a full load of cargo have the same
> acceleration? assuming all other factors are equal (maneuver drive, ship's
> mass, powerplant, etc)?
> 
> Does anyone else see anything wrong with this?

Only if you are trying to reconcile it to RL TL7/8 physics. 
IIRC from ancient history the discovery of upsydaisyium(one of several
seemingly disparate materials which allow the manipulation of space and
time)was the impetuous which launched the Solomani into space. Once
there they discovered natural materials such as Zuchai crystals and
Lanthanum in sufficient quantity to build cheap and plentiful Jump
drives etc. Many Old guard scientists committed suicide rather than
admit that the new technology worked on new principles.


-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
When in doubt, have two guys come through the door with guns.
                               -Raymond Chandler

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 14:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matt Ashley)
Date: Fri Aug 30 13:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Message Tag
In-Reply-To: <20020830115512.7552.61707.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020830202726.847.qmail@web12301.mail.yahoo.com>

> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
> The South oppressed 30% of its population.  The Union oppressed 100%
> of of the South's population.  Think about it.

Now this is an interesting tag.  I'm not sure what it really means.

While I am by no means a bleeding heart liberal, the original tag seems to be implying that
perhaps we should not have freed the slaves in the US or that going to war to free the slaves was
wrong.  Or perhaps that the slaveholding class in the south was treated unfairly in the process of
freeing the slaves.

The tag could be better phrased as;

"The south ENSLAVED 30% of its population.  The Union oppressed 70% of the South's population and
FREED the other 30%.  The North restored civil rights to ALL Southerners only to have the 70% of
the population REMOVE said civil rights from the 30%.  Think about it.

Matt

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 14:38:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matt Ashley)
Date: Fri Aug 30 13:38:03 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
In-Reply-To: <20020830115512.7552.61707.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020830203734.59534.qmail@web12308.mail.yahoo.com>

> > We are not likely to find many more areas where Newtonian physics
> > does not apply where we think it does today...
> 
> To me, that smacks of pure hubris.  There have been revolutions in
> thought in the past, and will be in the future.  What if, for example,
> it can be shown that reality is substantially subjective on a large
> scale?  Is it even possible to demonstrate that, were it true?  Think
> about it...
> 

Good point Robert.  I think that this entire thought can be applied to the great heat sink debate
and to this gravity issue.


> -- 
> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
> 'Linux was made by foreign terrorists to take money from true US
>  companies like Microsoft.'                         --some AOLer
> 'To this end we dedicate ourselves...'                     --Don

Now I really like this email tag!

Matt
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 15:06:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Douglas R Glatz)
Date: Fri Aug 30 14:06:05 2002
Subject: [TML] and now for something completely different
Message-ID: <20020830210541.CCF9A27BE4@mail.travellercentral.com>

I found this floating about on the 'net - it tickled my funny bone and I 
thought that the majority of listers here would enjoy it too!  :)

douglas


The colonel had three Second Lieutenants eligible for promotion. The
problem was, he only had one First Lieutenant Slot available.

The colonel called the first butter-bar into his office and said, "This is
a promotion test. If I was to tell you that I wanted a flag pole erected
in front of Post HQ by 1700, what would you do?"

The Lt. thought about it for a second, and said, "Sir. I would get a
shovel, head for HQ and start digging . . . "

"You're not ready to be promoted," the Colonel interrupted.

The colonel asked the same question of the next candidate.

"Sir," said the next butter-bar, "I would fill out a CE work order,
making sure I made provisions for the appropriate environmental study
and... "

"You are definitely not ready to be promoted," the Colonel said.

The Colonel asked the question of the final candidate.

Without hesitation, the Lieutenant said, "Sir. I would call the First
Sergeant, and say, 'Top, I want a @#$#@ flag pole in front of HQ by 1700!"

"You're ready to be promoted," the Colonel said.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 15:13:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (David Shayne)
Date: Fri Aug 30 14:13:05 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
References: <20020830115512.7552.61707.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D6FDFA4.C51DAE27@ameritech.net>

> From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
> Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 23:37:12 +1200

> > TNE uses 250 kg/kiloliter (3.5 tonnes per DTon) which strikes me as a
> > more reasonable average figure.
> 
> It does? I've missed that bit over and over. I always assumed 1 ton 
> per 1 m^3, on the basis that modern containers that fall off ships 
> seem to have about the same density as sea water - they float awash 
> and are quite effective at sinking yachts.

It kindof depends on what's in them but I think I see your point. Maybe
the MT guys got it closer to right after all. 

David Shayne

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 15:17:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Fri Aug 30 14:17:09 2002
Subject: [TML] Halon?
In-Reply-To: <E17kpjp-0005Tr-00@fifi.runbox.com>
Message-ID: <000401c2506a$2ff31350$be72893e@zinzan>

Stolen, borrowed, nicked whatever....

Thank you great idea hope you don't mind me grabbing it.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Beth
Sent: 30 August 2002 18:39
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] Halon?


Also the problem that Halon, when exposed to high temperatures, has some
toxic byproducts.  I hope that by the time of OTU there would be a
better replacement. IMTU it is Hivon 243, my own creation.  Use as you
wish.

"Hivon 243:  Hivon 243 is a heat reactive, fire fighting foam that can
be sprayed on to a small fire or the whole can tossed directly into a
larger fire.  When heated to 100C plus, the foam will expand, bursting
the can non-explosively, to cover a 10 square meter area with a flame
suppressant foam.  After 4 hours, the foam residue will break-down,
leaving only a fine powder.  Mass of a spray can: 350gm  Cost: Cr30"




 Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- gt+ ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so
zh+ vi-       And life is harsh and rarely fair.
"What do you mean, we can't increase speed? I could _fly_ faster than
this heap of junk!!" - Ervmisbe the Droyne. - David "Hyphen"
Jaques-Watson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 15:25:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Peter Scarrott)
Date: Fri Aug 30 14:25:07 2002
Subject: [TML] and now for something completely different
In-Reply-To: <20020830210541.CCF9A27BE4@mail.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000501c2506b$a298f090$be72893e@zinzan>

As an ex-officer I would agree most whole heartedly, it's amazing how
useful the words,  "Carry On, Petty Officer" are to a newly appointed
sub-Lieutenant, then you watch and learn.

The story you cite was actually used (in a different form) on my Officer
basic training course.

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Douglas R Glatz
Sent: 30 August 2002 21:04
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: [TML] and now for something completely different


I found this floating about on the 'net - it tickled my funny bone and I

thought that the majority of listers here would enjoy it too!  :)

douglas


The colonel had three Second Lieutenants eligible for promotion. The
problem was, he only had one First Lieutenant Slot available.

The colonel called the first butter-bar into his office and said, "This
is a promotion test. If I was to tell you that I wanted a flag pole
erected in front of Post HQ by 1700, what would you do?"

The Lt. thought about it for a second, and said, "Sir. I would get a
shovel, head for HQ and start digging . . . "

"You're not ready to be promoted," the Colonel interrupted.

The colonel asked the same question of the next candidate.

"Sir," said the next butter-bar, "I would fill out a CE work order,
making sure I made provisions for the appropriate environmental study
and... "

"You are definitely not ready to be promoted," the Colonel said.

The Colonel asked the question of the final candidate.

Without hesitation, the Lieutenant said, "Sir. I would call the First
Sergeant, and say, 'Top, I want a @#$#@ flag pole in front of HQ by
1700!"

"You're ready to be promoted," the Colonel said.

- - - - - - end original - - - - - 

 Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- gt+ ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so
zh+ vi-       And life is harsh and rarely fair.
"What do you mean, we can't increase speed? I could _fly_ faster than
this heap of junk!!" - Ervmisbe the Droyne. - David "Hyphen"
Jaques-Watson


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 15:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug 30 14:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Message Tag
In-Reply-To: <20020830202726.847.qmail@web12301.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020830202726.847.qmail@web12301.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <m37ki86nae.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Matt Ashley <helvorn@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> > The South oppressed 30% of its population.  The Union oppressed
> > 100% of of the South's population.  Think about it.
> 
> While I am by no means a bleeding heart liberal, the original tag
> seems to be implying that perhaps we should not have freed the
> slaves in the US or that going to war to free the slaves was wrong.

The slaves should have been freed.  War should not have been resorted
to.  Secession should not have needed to be resorted to.  Neither side
has pure hands--hence the bit about the South oppressing 30% of its
population.

Only replying 'cause I don't want anyone to think I support slavery.
It's rotten.  But so is endorsing murder and rapine.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and inconsistent
with it.  But all science, in fact, rests on a basis of faith, for it
assumes the permanence and uniformity of natural laws--a thing which
can never be demonstrated.                           --Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 16:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
Date: Fri Aug 30 15:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Knowing and doing
Message-ID: <F210oXfAJsCAMboEwRz00017376@hotmail.com>

From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

     "On retrospect, Mr. Larsen, that was a sharp, utterly unfair comment 
without any provocation whatsoever."


Mr. Johnson,

     And you have my apologies also, sir.  I typed and posted without taking 
any time to reflect on your post.  My note was rather pointed I'm afraid.

     "The crux of our disagreement here is that we're using different
meanings for the word 'culture'."

     Exactly, in my original post I was insufficiently clear.

     "You're speaking of an all-encompassing set, including politics,
economics, attitudes, and foreign relations, whereas I'm speaking of
the externalization of internal behavorial norms, eg: what it is to  be 
Mexican, and how that affects your behavior."

     A cogent point.  Prior to a change in US culture, a Mexican businessman 
trying to sell north of the border would have been laughed at, if he was 
lucky.

     "The reason the Mexicanm government did not become part of a
pan-North American trade agreement befor the 80's was largely the same 
reason it was debated so sharply when they did join in the 80's: they feared 
total economic dominance by the wealthier United States and the very real 
prospect of essentially losing control over their own country because of 
it."

     A real and just fear, especially considering how we'd treated them for 
the last century and a half.

     "Remember...the PRI was the party of Pancho Villa; we'd already sent 
Blackjack Pershing roving into Mexico after him."

     After Villa and his men had robbed banks and killed US citizens in 
Texas and Arizona, but yes, we've treated Mexico rather shabbily.

     "The main problem with Mexico's recent history, economic and
political, has been pretty much the same problem it's always had (in
common with far too much of the world): some tiny group of wealthy
landowners controlling the greater portion of the country, alternating 
between the carrot of subsidy and the stick of repression to keep the 
majority down."

     I'd add emigration to that formula.  They turned a blind eye to illegal 
immigration into the US as a type of social safety valve, just as the US has 
ignored it as a way to ensure a steady supply of wage slaves.

     "We invested *hugely* in Germany and Japan, post WWII, and it's paid 
off handsomely. Something to think about.)"

     Germany and Japan also had successful track records as entrepreneurial, 
business oriented societies, something Russia never did.
     This also points out the flaw in the "Central America/South Asia/Africa 
Needs A Marshall Plan" arguments.  Western Europe, Germany, and Japan still 
had the human capital; an educated and trained populace with a culture of 
business success, and only lacked the bricks and mortar necessary to put 
them to work.  These other areas don't have the human capital at all.


     Sincerely,
     Larsen

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 17:23:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Fri Aug 30 16:23:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The whole mass/force/accel thing
In-Reply-To: <200208301258.NWI02268@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208301258.NWI02268@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020831092247.A14030@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> Exactly.  And what Podkletnov is doing by "shielding" an 

You mean what Podkletnov is *claiming* to be doing, with singular lack
of success in actually demonstrating it to anyone else, let alone
having it replicated in independent experiments.

Worse than Pons and Fleischman, who at least managed to convince quite
a few other people that they were seeing a weak version of the same
effect in independent experiments.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 17:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Fri Aug 30 16:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Highports (Was:Cargo Tonnage)
In-Reply-To: <B9946E9C.6B9AA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000001c2507c$e8f78ea0$6501a8c0@Darla>


> For that matter, why even bother to build orbital starports.
Contragrav
> (or
> whatever you want to call it) removes any advantages of highports.
The
> list
> goes on and on.
> 

I think highports would be viable even with contagrav technology
available.  There will always be weight, performance and cost penalties
for imposing requirements for planetary landing and takeoff capability
on starships.  These penalties will be even greater given the wide
variety of planetary environments that a landing-capable starship would
have to be designed to operate in.

For larger starships in particular, the lowest overall system cost would
probably be to build starships for space travel only, and build shuttles
optimized for local conditions to handle the surface-to-space part of
the trip.  A facility to handle exchanging traffic between the shuttles
and starships makes sense.  If materials technology permits, the
highport can even be built at the top of a beanstalk and the shuttle
vehicles dispensed with.

Starships capable of planetary landings would of course continue to be
built, for not every world would have the technology or economy to
justify building a highport there.  

TWB


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 17:57:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Fri Aug 30 16:57:02 2002
Subject: [TML] The whole mass/force/accel thing
Message-ID: <200208302356.NXE01512@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>You mean what Podkletnov is *claiming* to be doing, with 
>singular lack of success in actually demonstrating it to 
>anyone else, let alone having it replicated in independent 
>experiments.
>
>Worse than Pons and Fleischman, who at least managed to 
>convince quite a few other people that they were seeing a 
>weak version of the same effect in independent experiments.

True.  "Claiming" is accurate.  But it's the idea that he has 
that I'm using to explain gravitics IMTU.  As far as I'm 
concerned, he's waving his hands as much as I am.  I have to 
thank him, however - it's not a bad SF idea.

I believe, however, that he's been more successful than the 
cold fusion boys, in that he's personally gotten contracts 
from NASA and Boeing for millions of dollars.

________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 18:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Kelly St.Clair)
Date: Fri Aug 30 17:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Knowing and doing
In-Reply-To: <20020830190006.16949.27233.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentr
 al.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020830170616.00b33ba8@mailhost.efn.org>

>If there is ever a textbook example of how NOT to help a country
>transition from dictatorship with a controlled economy to open democracy
>with free markets, Russia is it.

Or from feudalism to an industrial state, or...

Russia has a history of trying to import The Latest Thing from abroad and 
slap it down on top of the existing structure, without going through any of 
the intervening steps that (in theory) teach you how to make it work 
properly, or at least what not to do.  The results have generally been poor.

Gee, I suppose that ties back into the topic of this thread, doesn't it?



--------------
Kelly St.Clair       "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org         Right here in fair Verona
                        With a capital T that rhymes with D
                        That stands for Duel..."


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 18:17:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Fri Aug 30 17:17:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Knowing and doing
References: <F210oXfAJsCAMboEwRz00017376@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D700A53.6090607@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:

>     This also points out the flaw in the "Central America/South 
> Asia/Africa Needs A Marshall Plan" arguments.  Western Europe, Germany, 
> and Japan still had the human capital; an educated and trained populace 
> with a culture of business success, and only lacked the bricks and 
> mortar necessary to put them to work.  These other areas don't have the 
> human capital at all.

I'm not so sure about Russia...Tetris anyone? The joke about the Russian 
nuclear physicist coming here top work as a cabbie isn't far off.

Russia has a huge stock of human capital.

In many ways they beat us in the space race: we got to the moon first, 
but Mir was a monument to the power of faith, duct tape and engineering 
bodgering in the face of low budgets.

It's hardly true, also, that Russia is lacking in the entrepenurial 
spirit, witness the immediate appearance of street vendors, new 
businesses, etc. that have sprouted in Russia since the fall of Communism.

What they are lacking in large part(and what they share with many other 
third-world countries, as well as the OTU, for that matter) is the rule 
of law, and a *tradition* of such.

Russia in many ways has pretty much *always* been governed by the rule 
of men, not the rule of laws.

England broke with that concept at Runnymede, starting a long tradition 
of rule by law that it's propagated much of the rest of the world. Some 
places it's taken root, some places it hasn't.

That raises some fascinating implications for Ye Aulde Game.

It would explain much in fact, from technological stagnation to the 
patchwork of cultures and customs.

When the business climate can change on the whim of a powerful man, the 
only powerful businesses are run by *more* powerful men.

This means a gradual concentration of power, and an inclination toward 
monopoly, much like the lazziez faire days of the late 19th century. 
Note it took rule of law, namely the Sherman Anti-trust act to curb the 
excesses of companies like Standard Oil and J.P.Morgan (who epitomizes 
the concept of rule of man on a corporate scale)

This fits, with the prevalence of the few Megacorps; moreover it ties 
rather neatly with millennia-old Vilani tradition as well.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 18:38:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Roseberry)
Date: Fri Aug 30 17:38:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: HGS Q&A
Message-ID: <3D700EA4.78D1B33C@mail.cswnet.com>

Just got around trying out the Azhanti High Lightning on HGS.
Man, how bad can you get. Supplement 9 does not jive with Supplement 5,
and Supp 5 doesn't jive with MT Arrival Vengeance, and none of the three
jive with HGS.

FI version works if none of the ships craft crew are on board, and I get
rid of the back up bridge, cargo bays, and frozen watches.
:no-no-no:

CF version@TL15 looks alot better. You can fit all the crew and 20
passengers, a backup bridge with backup comp, a frozen watch, and 3148.5
dt of cargo bay. Thats off, and the deck plans won't jive correctly, but
I can live with it.

Haven't tried the SC version yet, though it will probably have the same
issues as the FI version. I think we'll just send these out on long
exploratory patrols and forget about them. :sigh:

Dan Roseberry [plop101] Arba/Lunion/Sp Marches

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 18:51:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Dane Nattrass)
Date: Fri Aug 30 17:51:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Highports (Was:Cargo Tonnage)
In-Reply-To: <000001c2507c$e8f78ea0$6501a8c0@Darla>
References: <B9946E9C.6B9AA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020831084937.01ea35a0@192.168.0.1>

>
>For larger starships in particular, the lowest overall system cost would
>probably be to build starships for space travel only, and build shuttles
>optimized for local conditions to handle the surface-to-space part of
>the trip.  A facility to handle exchanging traffic between the shuttles
>and starships makes sense.  If materials technology permits, the
>highport can even be built at the top of a beanstalk and the shuttle
>vehicles dispensed with.

What free trader wants to spend 50-80 million on a mobile home he cant land=
=20
and have a barbeque over the cooling reactor exhaust of? =3D=DE


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 18:56:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Aug 30 17:56:43 2002
Subject: History Re: [TML] The guys that beat the Romans (ObTrav?)
References: <20020830175802.15411.59710.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <008301c25089$94cb7aa0$975d8690@computer>

> From: Paul Walker
> How many years would it take for the people to believe
> false history?  I mean obviously the current
> generation would know what happened (assuming it was
> reported accurately), but would their children or
> grand children 30 to 60 years later?

Well, the accurate reporting is the problem...

In the specific case I was talking about, the main spin is that the Imperial
victory in the Rim War was inevitable. If you include the possibility that
the Sollies might have succeeded in adding another front to the war, it
becomes less so...

Of course, the reason why this never happened was that a small ship full of
traders, former scouts, or whatever, blew the whistle on the plot... : )

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 19:00:50 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Aug 30 18:00:50 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
Message-ID: <008501c25089$9656ae80$975d8690@computer>

> From: Eris Reddoch
> Some folks like them, but in my games the PC's will almost
> always land their ship on a world somewhere.  Orbital ports exist, here
> and there, to handle open frame ships and overflows, but most ship
> traffic still lands on the planet.

Ever since TNE I've had a bit of an allergy to landing ships on planets.
It's too easy for wiseguys to "borrow" them. Not unrelated to this, my (few)
ship designs of recent years all tend to have ship's boats and the like.

In a bigger economic sense, there is quite a bit to be said for LASH designs
and so on for most freight. Time is money.

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com




From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 19:05:09 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Fri Aug 30 18:05:09 2002
Subject: [TML] The guys that beat the Romans (ObTrav?)
Message-ID: <008401c25089$95735360$975d8690@computer>

> From: "Hurrel, Brian"
> Well, all I know is that Scotland, or the land that became Scotland, was
> most assuredly never conquered by the Romans. And it's a good thing, too,
> as what state would the world be in without golf, kilts, haggis, scotch,
> Groudskeeper Willie, and "Auld Lang Syne".

I absolutely cannot refrain from posting this quote, 'cos it's just too
cool:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From Tacitus: The Life of Gnaeus Julius Agricola
Chapter 30. 'Whenever I consider why we are fighting and how we have reached
this crisis, I have a strong sense that this day of your splendid rally may
mean the dawn of liberty for the whole of Britain. You have mustered to a
man, and to a man you are free. There are no lands behind us, and even the
sea is menaced by the Roman fleet. The clash of battle--the hero's glory--
has become the safest refuge for the coward. Battles against Rome have been
lost and won before--but never without hope; we were always there in
reserve. We, the choice flower of Britain, were treasured  in her most
secret places. Out of sight of subject shores, we kept even our eyes free
from the defilement of tyranny. We, the last men on earth, the last of the
free, have been shielded till today by the very remoteness and the seclusion
for which we are famed. We have enjoyed the impressiveness of the unknown.
But today the boundary of Britain is exposed; beyond us lies no nation,
nothing but waves and rocks and the Romans, more deadly still than they, for
you find in them an arrogance which no reasonable submission can elude.
Brigands of the world, they have exhausted the land by their indiscriminate
plunder? and now they ransack the sea. The wealth of an enemy excites their
cupidity, his poverty their lust of power. East and West have failed to glut
their maw. They are unique in being as violently tempted to attack the poor
as the wealthy. Robbery, butchery, rapine, with false names they call
Empire; and they make a wilderness and call it peace.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Sadly, the Caledones lost...)

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 19:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Fri Aug 30 18:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
In-Reply-To: <008501c25089$9656ae80$975d8690@computer>
Message-ID: <B9956602.6BA31%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/30/02 5:58 PM, Alan Bradley at abradley1@bigpond.com wrote:

> Ever since TNE I've had a bit of an allergy to landing ships on planets.
> It's too easy for wiseguys to "borrow" them. Not unrelated to this, my (f=
ew)
> ship designs of recent years all tend to have ship's boats and the like.
>=20
> In a bigger economic sense, there is quite a bit to be said for LASH desi=
gns
> and so on for most freight. Time is money.
>=20

That's my own take as well, but then I don't use gravitic thrusters INTU.
IMTU, most cargo ships are basically big bricks.  No point in streamlining
or anything like that.  Really just a big cargo bay with a bridge and livin=
g
quarters attached.  Either closed structures of dispersed, serviced by
shuttle who job it is to load and unload cargo as quickly as possible.

Go to a port and watch a container ship unload sometime.  It's quite
illuminating.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 19:37:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Thomas Barnes)
Date: Fri Aug 30 18:37:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Highports (Was:Cargo Tonnage)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020831084937.01ea35a0@192.168.0.1>
Message-ID: <000001c2508e$feb729f0$6501a8c0@Darla>

>=20
> What free trader wants to spend 50-80 million on a mobile=20
> home he cant land=20
> and have a barbeque over the cooling reactor exhaust of? =3D=DE
>=20

True, but of course a Free Trader is a small starship.

TWB


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 19:42:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Fri Aug 30 18:42:41 2002
Subject: [TML] sheer handwave
In-Reply-To: <20020830145347.74278.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020830145347.74278.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3d70195d.16669685@post.demon.co.uk>

Paul Walker <traveller_tv@yahoo.com> writes:

>In any case, I think the Terrans, Vargr, and K'Kree
>would be the biggest of the History Spinners.  Maybe
>they don't deny their defeats, but just don't teach
>it.  That is policy in several nations now.

Hmm.. Personally I think the Solomani _will_ teach schoolchilden about
their defeat.  In lurid detail:

They'll tell how the gallant, brave Terran heroes fought magnificently
against the overwhelming hordes of Imperialist lackeys, defeating them
again and again despite the overwhelming odds against them, until they
were finally dragged down to defeat by treachery and sheer weight of
numbers. =20

They'll tell the children about the atrocities the triumphalist
Imperials carried out against the defeated Solomani;  of poor,
bleeding Terra, the lost homeworld, now under the iron heel of
Strephon.

They'll warn the children about the traitors within Solomani society
who even now call for peace with the Imperium, betraying the memories
of the gallant martyrs to the Cause.

And when the children are fired by righteous indignation and youthful
anger, they'll be told that someday, perhaps in their lifetime, the
Imperium WILL be defeated.  Terra WILL be reclaimed.  The South^W
Sphere WILL rise again!


As for the Vargr - they won't teach people about their defeats because
they *have* no defeats.  Everybody always joins the winning side in
Vargr society...

"Treason doth never prosper - what's the reason?
=46or if it prosper none dare call it treason."


K'Kree - yes, I think they *are* capable of self-deception and never
mentioning their defeats.
>
Stephen

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 19:46:49 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Stephen Tempest)
Date: Fri Aug 30 18:46:49 2002
Subject: [TML] The guys that beat the Romans (ObTrav?)
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22ECB@USCHM203>
References: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22ECB@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <3d711d59.17688904@post.demon.co.uk>

"Hurrel, Brian" <brian.hurrel@eds.com> writes:

>Well, all I know is that Scotland, or the land that became Scotland, was
>most assuredly never conquered by the Romans.=20

Tell that to Agricola, or visit the Roman archeological sites as far
north as Aberdeen and Inverness...

In fact the Romans conquered Scotland, then decided they really didn't
want it and so gave it back to the Scots (1)...

Stephen
(1, OK, Picts, the "Scots" being Irish invaders who would later
conquer the Pictish, Welsh and English inhabitants of modern-day
Scotland)

ObTrav: er... any minor (but indomitable) human races out there who
claim they were never conquered by the First Imperium but held out
against it?


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 19:54:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bill Hopper)
Date: Fri Aug 30 18:54:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Secure Systems (was: Prevalence of grav vehicles)
References: <E17jVbt-0006fB-00@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>	<3D6B505D.7000702@usisp.com> <m3znv7gvom.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org> <3D6EDDD1.4000108@usisp.com>
Message-ID: <3D702205.E7919445@pobox.com>

> Robert Uhl < @4dv.net=""> wrote:
> 
> >richard honeycutt <richard@usisp.com> writes:
> >...Note that Unix, despite
> >its virtues, has been insecure for years, but has finally had most of
> >the holes spackled closed.  Windows isn't even beginning to get there,
> >although I daresay that Microsoft are attempting to work on it.
> >
>     Why assume that OS's in the future will be secure? What is the
> Imperial standard
> hardware and os? or the standard language for programming? With
> thousands of
> worlds and thousands of manufacturers all trying to build a better
> product than the others,
> certainly there will be holes somewhere and people clever enough to
> exploit them.
> 

Funny you should mention this.  I read an article today on Palladium,
Microsoft's code name for their implementation of the Trusted Computing
Platform Alliance (TCPA) specifications.

(See http://www.winxpnews.com/rd/rd.cfm?id=020827ED-Palladium )

I liked this quote from the mail pointing to the article: "For you
history buffs out there, Windows XP is computerdom's Weimar Republic
(and the EULA the treaty of Versailles).  Palladium is what comes
next."  Tom Shinder, Editor, WinXPnews

Anyway, the article outlines a future where (to vastly oversimlpify and
paraphrase) your computer asks permission from a central server before
granting you, the owner, the ability to run the programs you have
installed or view files residing on it, among other things. Per
Microsoft and the TCPA, this would eliminate software piracy, viruses,
etc., and is a Good Thing.

I'm not sure I agree.

However, this seems to me to be something that would appeal strongly to
the Vilani mindset.

So, IYTU, how do you update software on your computer?  Can you write
your own software?  Or is writing unlicensed software a crime surpassed
only by driving your grav car manually in central-control areas?  ( Both
are done _intentionally_ and have the potential ability to cause
mayhem.)

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 20:27:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Schwartz)
Date: Fri Aug 30 19:27:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Highports (Was:Cargo Tonnage)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020831084937.01ea35a0@192.168.0.1>
References: <000001c2507c$e8f78ea0$6501a8c0@Darla>
 <B9946E9C.6B9AA%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020830222450.03b69470@mail.comcast.net>

At 08:51 PM 8/30/2002, you wrote:


>>For larger starships in particular, the lowest overall system cost would
>>probably be to build starships for space travel only, and build shuttles
>>optimized for local conditions to handle the surface-to-space part of
>>the trip.  A facility to handle exchanging traffic between the shuttles
>>and starships makes sense.  If materials technology permits, the
>>highport can even be built at the top of a beanstalk and the shuttle
>>vehicles dispensed with.
>
>What free trader wants to spend 50-80 million on a mobile home he cant=20
>land and have a barbeque over the cooling reactor exhaust of? =3D=DE


Depends on if he can paint the Ship's Boat bright orange, stencil "General=
=20
Lee" on the side of it, and add a PA system that plays Dixie.

"Yee-Haw!"=20


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 20:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Ken Murphy)
Date: Fri Aug 30 19:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The Emperor's Own
Message-ID: <F324wmXE9jcqEhFj9aN000069e8@hotmail.com>

   Howdy gang,
   Issue #9 of the Traveller's Digest (I lament the fact that joker won't 
come up off the rights for this material)had several things I liked--an 
overview of the Nobility, a tour of Capital,and *especially* Terry McInnes&#8217;s 
nice little 4 pager,&#8220;Crack Troops:The Imperial Guard". The issue *also* 
covered the assassination of ther Emperor(not I*M*TU,pal!)
   Anyhow,the article gives a list, plus a few historical snippets about the 
different regiments which make up the Imperial Guard-proper.
   About halfway through the article, we get to, what I think of,as the 
meat-n-potatoes of the article--Information for using the Guard as a 
background career.
   Thus:
  "Guard Life
   Members of the Guard lead a life of spit and polish, drill and training. 
Each member is a seasoned veteran.
   Guard members are nominated for duty by their regimental commanders in 
the regular Army or Marines, either for heroic action in combat, their 
military bearing, strength, endurance, or appearance. In Traveller terms, 
Guards get favorable enlistment DMs for STR and END ratings of 10+."

   This provides some interesting tidbits, that's for sure. Funny thing is, 
while mods for Enlistment rolls are mentioned, *no* actual Enlistment 
information is provided.
   Wanting to incorporate the Guard into my campaign, I had to work up some 
Enlistment info:
   Using the above, I decided *first* thing was to alter the Special 
Assignment Tables for the Army/Marines and Navy; allowing a stint in the 
Guard as an option during character generation. So I added numbers 8 and 9 
to each table. Note that these entries are the same for both Enlisted and 
Officers.

1D  Army                    Marines                Navy
8   Army Intelligence       NavalIntelligence[1]   Naval Intelligence
9   Imperial Guard          Marine Escort Force    Imp.Escort Sqdrn.

DM +1 if STR 10+
DM +1 if END 10+
DM +1 if Marine enlisted and EDU 7+
DM +1 if Army enlisted and END 7+
DM +1 if SOC 11+
DM +2 if Rank E9,has received MCG,and been in service 5+ terms.
DM +3 if received SEH.

[1] I'm right in thinking the Marines are working for Naval Intelligence, 
aren't I? Or do they have their own Marine-specific Intelligence service?

   Figuring someone might attempt to have their characters enlisting in the 
Guard *right off*--they'd have an Enlistment roll on 12+ on 2D, and use the 
mods listed above.An additional mod for enlistment is DM -2 if not 
transfering over to the Guard through a Special Assignment.

  "They are posted to their domain or other appropriate Guard regiment as 
vacancies occur."

   Now the article said that Guards serve a single term. At the end of which 
they may either be reposted to a regular regiment with +1 Rank, or,if 
promoted during that term, remain in the Guards.I liked the idea of someone 
being able to make a career of the Guard, so I tossed this "up or out" (as 
the article called it)restriction right off.

   During the first term, Guard members receive the equivalent of an 
appointment to OCS. You'll notice I've mostly just copied the OCS info out 
of the rules :)
   Rank E5 and below are promoted +2Ranks, and receive 2 Service skills and 
1 MOS skill.
   Rank E6 are promoted to 01, and receive 2 Service skills and 1 MOS skill.
   Rank E7 are promoted to 02,and receive 2 Service skills and 1 MOS skill.
   Rank E8-E9 are promoted to 03.

   Default skills:
   Battledress-1
   Tactics-1
   Leader-1
   Combat Riflemen-1
   In addition,service in the Guard provides +2 SOC because of "the prestige 
associated with this elite unit, and the social contacts it is possible to 
gain in service at Capital."

   Until I manage to knock out some Guard specific tables, I guess 
Assignments, Resolution, etc, might as well be treated as per the normal 
character generation rules for whatever force the character is originally 
from.

  -Ken-






_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 20:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Richard Wilson)
Date: Fri Aug 30 19:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Knowing and doing
In-Reply-To: <F152AitVGeSJIEoPXCF0000039e@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020830212448.0462e740@rollanet.org>

At 09:07 AM 8/30/02, you wrote:
>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>
>
>Mr. Johnson,
>
>     Now I did NOT type that, nor did I mean to imply it.  I distinctly 
> remember typing that Mexicans are not stupid and I strongly believe that 
> to be the truth.  I've worked all over Mexico, seeing quite a bit more of 
> that nation than the tourist enclaves most visitors never leave.  I'm 
> sure you've seen the "real" Mexico too.
>     I've dealt with a sharp group of people who aren't afraid of hard 
> work.  The success of Mexican emigrants in the US is an indicator of 
> this.  All the pieces seem to be there, so why haven't they jelled until 
> recently?
>Culture.

"A stable system of property rights, an honest police force, and a 
dependable judiciary are historical accidents, rare in the experience of 
the world."
- The Great Reckoning  by James Dale Davidson & Lord William Rees-Mogg

This book makes the point that if you live in a society that doesn't help 
you protect the fruit of your labors, you have no incentive to produce 
excess wealth. Since investing excess wealth is how you increase standards 
of living (i.e. tech level), societies that don't allow it to accumulate 
tend to stagnate.

This has "interesting" implications for the society of the Imperium.  :)


-------------------------------------
Richard Wilson

rtwilson@rollanet.org
rtwilson2@yahoo.com

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty 
recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the 
dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream 
with open eyes, to make it possible."

--Seven Pillars of Wisdom, Lawrence of Arabia


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 22:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Fri Aug 30 21:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] travlib 0.6.5 Released
Message-ID: <m3r8gfacbp.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

I'm pleased to announce the release of travlib 0.6.5.  This release
adds child validation.  That is, it is no longer possible for a planet
to have a galaxy as an orbiter.  This and other absurdities have been
removed for good.  I have also added tests of this to the validation
suites, in order to ensure good working order of the validation
functions.

travlib is a GPLed (free software) library which provides routines for
Traveller data representation.  The core library is written in C;
Scheme bindings are provided as well.  It is meant to serve as the
data represention library for travtrack, which will be a GPLed
Traveller data tracking application.

<http://travtrack.sf.net/>

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Hell No!  We won't relent to your artificial socioeconomic subsidisation
of political contributors and special interests!

From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 23:10:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew Bond)
Date: Fri Aug 30 22:10:03 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
References: <20020830115512.7552.61707.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <3D6FDFA4.C51DAE27@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <01e901c250ac$8f3027d0$7400a8c0@matt>

David Shayne wrote:
>> From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
>> Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 23:37:12 +1200
>
>>> TNE uses 250 kg/kiloliter (3.5 tonnes per DTon) which strikes me as
>>> a more reasonable average figure.
>>
>> It does? I've missed that bit over and over. I always assumed 1 ton
>> per 1 m^3, on the basis that modern containers that fall off ships
>> seem to have about the same density as sea water - they float awash
>> and are quite effective at sinking yachts.
>
> It kindof depends on what's in them but I think I see your point.
> Maybe the MT guys got it closer to right after all.
>
> David Shayne

Of course the contents of the Container might mass 250kg/kl, but the
mass of the comtainer may well bump the overall mass up towards
1000kg/kl.

I can't recall the exact values (and they vary from container to
container), but I seem to recall that the GWL of a standard container is
in the 30-40,000kg range, with a volume of about 65m^3 (try reading the
stencilling on the back of one next time you are stuck behind one in
traffic), so about 7.5-10 tons per dton.

As I have previously posted, I use a rule of thumb that the mass of a
loaded starship is approximately 10 times its displacement in tons.
Leonard queried my rule of thumb, and on checking the loaded masses of
all the ships in the back of TNE it turns out they actually average 9t
per dton. Generally 'civilian' vessels are a bit lighter, 'merchant '
vessels are pretty much bang on the average, and 'Military' vessels are
heavier (armour and weapons are relatively massive).

Matt


From tml@travellercentral.com  Fri Aug 30 23:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Fri Aug 30 22:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Knowing and doing
In-Reply-To: <3D700A53.6090607@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <003601c2514d$837575c0$1001a8c0@sauron>

Bruce Johnson wrote :
> The joke about the Russian
> nuclear physicist coming here top work as a cabbie isn't far off.

In New Zealand it's not a joke.

We have surgeons, physicists, and airline pilots (among other
professions) from Eastern Europe, India, and Africa, driving cabs in our
country.

Part of the reason is that the emigrate over here expecting to be able
to work only to find that our local profesional organizations/unions
won't register them, and thus they can't be employed.

Frankie




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 00:28:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 30 23:28:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: deckplans -- 200 ton merchant transport vessel
Message-ID: <cc2fe9cc32b1.cc32b1cc2fe9@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Flykiller@aol.com
Date: Friday, August 30, 2002 8:06 am
Subject: [TML] Re: deckplans -- 200 ton merchant transport vessel

> >>A really great merchant transport vessel.
> >
> >"Really great"?  Methinks you should leave such
> >descriptions to others. ;-)
> >
> >http://members.aol.com/exog/myhomepage/mcg2.html
> 
> I like stating the obvious.
> 
> >I think
> >that the US Space Shuttle has plans for venting the
> >compartment to space for fighting major fires - would
> >vacuum be more hazardous to people than halon?
> 
> The shuttle's tiny inhabited space with fully trained crew can 
> vent and 
> recharge quickly and has little room for firefighting equipment, 
> and to my 
> knowledge the crew is not expected to conduct operations while 
> dealing with a 
> fire.  A 200 ton merchant vessel with passengers cannot vent and 
> recharge 
> quickly, has room for firefighting equipment, and may need to 
> continue 
> operations while the fire is in progress.  The simplest way to 
> deal with a 
> fire without causing more immediate problems is halon (or whatever 
> non-toxic 
> equivilant exists in the future).  The Erin can vent too, but I 
> thought it 
> should have more options.

IIRC, halon is essentially non-toxic.  The hazard from halon fire 
suppression systems (or their CO2 antecedents) is that they work by 
displacing oxygen.  Unfortunately, people are as susceptible to the 
effects of oxygen starvation as fires are....

<<snip>>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 00:40:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 30 23:40:04 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
Message-ID: <a.245948cd.2aa1be87@aol.com>

 >For that matter, why even bother to build orbital starports.  Contragrav (or
 >whatever you want to call it) removes any advantages of highports.  The list
 >goes on and on.

Well, that's Traveller.

I deal with that by (handwave alert!  handwave alert!) just assuming that 
gravitic manipulation devices are oriented to operate primarily in one 
direction, and are designed for continuous operation in that direction (say, 
pointing aft of the ship).  You can change their direction, so that the ship 
moves straight up or down or sideways or even backwards, but this overloads 
the devices, and the more you deviate from normal alignment the more it 
overloads them (especially at full power).  A 90 degree deviation represents 
a serious overload, and can only be done for a few minutes.  Thus, a ship 
still has to be streamlined to enter an atmosphere, but it can settle 
straight down and land on a level place like a helicopter.  Ships will 
accelerate towards a destination and then turn around at midpoint, just as CT 
says.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 00:44:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 30 23:44:03 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
Message-ID: <cc72a0ccaa6b.ccaa6bcc72a0@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Ken Murphy <murfnmurf@hotmail.com>
Date: Friday, August 30, 2002 10:06 am
Subject: Re: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?

>   Well,according to the MT Ref book, page 57, bottom left column 
> under 
> "volume", it states "Volume is measured in kiloliters, a kiloliter 
> equals 
> one cubic meter. Thus a cube that is one meter on a side has a 
> volume of one 
> kiloliter. A kiloliter contains 1,000 liters; 13.5 kiloliters 
> equals one ton 
> of displacement"
>   Okay, here we go...On page 85 of the MT Ref book, top left 
> column under 
> "Loaded Weight", it states "to compute the average weight of a 
> full cargo 
> hold,multiply the volume of the hold in kiloliters by 1,000kg (one 
> metric 
> ton)."

That's also the default I use for cargo mass in T4/FF&S2.  Ships fitted 
to carry specific cargoes (forex, an ore-carrier) may well specify 
different values.  Note that, unlike CT/HG2, FF&S2 assumes that mass 
affects acceleration, so an ore-carrier would need more powerful drives 
to match the acceleration of a general-cargo ship, all else being equal. 

Of course, more powerful drives require a larger (and thus much more 
massive) power plant....



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 00:48:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jens Rydholm)
Date: Fri Aug 30 23:48:03 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
In-Reply-To: <20020830091811.A11375@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <B993F5EB.6B909%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
 <20020830091811.A11375@freeman.little-possums.net>
Message-ID: <20020831084120.2c83b9b0.jenry023@student.liu.se>

On Fri, 30 Aug 2002 09:18:11 +1000
Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net> wrote:

> Particularly dense cargoes are assumed to require extra space for
> bracing and to spread the load over the deck.  (I'm not quite sure
> why, considering that artificial gravity and contragravity are
> common)

Well, considering what happens if the artificial gravity is disabled for
one reason or another, I think having bracing is a Good Idea.

> In a number of Traveller illustrations, cargo containers seem to be
> hexagonal prisms.  However, I'm not so sure that such a shape is
> particularly easy to handle.  GT:FT has containers much like
> real-world shipping containers: oblong boxes of standardized
> dimensions, with various designs for different cargo requirements.

Hexagonal containers would waste space unless the cargo hold was oddly
shaped, which is rarely the case. I'd go for box shapes instead.

Has anyone done some work on container design in FF&S2 ?

* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se  | of Linkoeping, Sweden     |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745         | (computer science/tech.)  |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 24 years old, male        *

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 00:53:10 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Antony Farrell)
Date: Fri Aug 30 23:53:10 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
In-Reply-To: <01e901c250ac$8f3027d0$7400a8c0@matt>
Message-ID: <MABBJJDEEKCKOMHMIFOPKEPNEOAA.Skaran@bigpond.com>

Actually FFS1 has two measures for the mass carried in a given volume. For
starships it, the average mass per kiloliter is 1 metric ton (this is the
density of water). For vehicles it uses a quarter of this, ie 250kg per
kiloliter This is given as a guide and heavier loads can be carried but may
bring into play actual thrust/mass ratios.

Antony

-----Original Message-----
From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
[mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Matthew Bond
Sent: Saturday, 31 August 2002 1:09 PM
To: tml@travellercentral.com
Subject: Re: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?


David Shayne wrote:
>> From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
>> Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 23:37:12 +1200
>
>>> TNE uses 250 kg/kiloliter (3.5 tonnes per DTon) which strikes me as
>>> a more reasonable average figure.
>>
>> It does? I've missed that bit over and over. I always assumed 1 ton
>> per 1 m^3, on the basis that modern containers that fall off ships
>> seem to have about the same density as sea water - they float awash
>> and are quite effective at sinking yachts.
>
> It kindof depends on what's in them but I think I see your point.
> Maybe the MT guys got it closer to right after all.
>
> David Shayne

Of course the contents of the Container might mass 250kg/kl, but the
mass of the comtainer may well bump the overall mass up towards
1000kg/kl.

I can't recall the exact values (and they vary from container to
container), but I seem to recall that the GWL of a standard container is
in the 30-40,000kg range, with a volume of about 65m^3 (try reading the
stencilling on the back of one next time you are stuck behind one in
traffic), so about 7.5-10 tons per dton.

As I have previously posted, I use a rule of thumb that the mass of a
loaded starship is approximately 10 times its displacement in tons.
Leonard queried my rule of thumb, and on checking the loaded masses of
all the ships in the back of TNE it turns out they actually average 9t
per dton. Generally 'civilian' vessels are a bit lighter, 'merchant '
vessels are pretty much bang on the average, and 'Military' vessels are
heavier (armour and weapons are relatively massive).

Matt

_______________________________________________
TML mailing list
TML@travellercentral.com
http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 00:58:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Fri Aug 30 23:58:02 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
Message-ID: <130.13a6f99e.2aa1c27e@aol.com>

 >That is the way CT works.  But then CT also gives us "magic missles"
 >where missle racks and missle bays have an infinite supply of free
 >missles.
 
 Where? I must have missed this part of CT...24 years ago.

CT doesn't say any such thing.  It simply doesn't address the issue in the 
slightest.

Book 2 lists a missile's mass.  Nuke missiles are identical (by implication 
in Book 5).  Comparing its mass to that of a modern Sidewinder, it looks to 
be about six inches thick and nine feet long or some variant thereof.  If I 
remember correctly (though I feel I don't) this results in one hundred salvos 
of thirty missiles each per one hundred ton missile bay (including packaging).

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 01:03:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 31 00:03:02 2002
Subject: [TML] sheer handwave
Message-ID: <e6.2d70b953.2aa1c3cc@aol.com>

 >>  >Regardless of whether he is right or wrong, and
 >>  >whether you believe him or not, you have to admire
 >> his
 >>  >Patriotic Nationalism.
 >> 
 >> Not when it's irrational.
 >> 
 >> And I don't think "patriotic nationalism" describes
 >> his position.
 >
 >Oh how I'd love to reply to this, but Listmom is
 right, it's too flammable.

(hope you don't mind the email)

I agree.  But if you think I'm wrong and that he's rational or patriotically 
nationalistic, then I'd be interested to hear why.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 01:07:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 31 00:07:04 2002
Subject: [TML] sheer handwave
Message-ID: <cc.10f46850.2aa1c4ab@aol.com>

 >Oh how I'd love to reply to this, but Listmom is
 >right, it's too flammable.

Please disregard my previous post on this subject in this newsletter.  Forgot 
to change the address.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 01:53:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 31 00:53:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Halon?
Message-ID: <16.2497c159.2aa1cfcc@aol.com>

 >Here-and-now, after the Halon floods the computer room, there's a whole 
 >dance with fans to clear the place out before people go in.
 >
 >(Just as Halon displaces O2 in fire-fighting, hemoglobin is more fond of 
 >Halon than O2... which makes it bad ju-ju to be huffing.)

http://www.h3r.com/halon/

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 02:11:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 31 01:11:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Secure Systems (was: Prevalence of grav vehicles)
Message-ID: <cd89e5cd7b0f.cd7b0fcd89e5@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Hopper <whopper@pobox.com>
Date: Saturday, August 31, 2002 4:55 am
Subject: [TML] Secure Systems (was: Prevalence of grav vehicles)

<<snip>>
> 
> So, IYTU, how do you update software on your computer?  Can you write
> your own software?  Or is writing unlicensed software a crime 
> surpassedonly by driving your grav car manually in central-control 
> areas?  ( Both
> are done _intentionally_ and have the potential ability to cause
> mayhem.)

Well, CT includes rules for writing starship-related software, so I'd 
probably permit it IMTU if the topic ever came up.  Of course, there's 
not a lot of beta-testing on software you write yourself.... ;-)

There may also be bank-imposed limits on installing non-commercial 
software on starships still under mortgage.

Meanwhile, T4/FF&S2 doesn't really address discrete software; starships 
have computers of whatever complexity, and that's all you need to worry 
about.  (Come to think of it, FF&S2 doesn't address _discreet_ software, 
either....)


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 02:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug 31 01:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
In-Reply-To: <a.245948cd.2aa1be87@aol.com>
References: <a.245948cd.2aa1be87@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020831182325.A14959@freeman.little-possums.net>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> A 90 degree deviation represents a serious overload, and can only be
> done for a few minutes.  Thus, a ship still has to be streamlined to
> enter an atmosphere, but it can settle straight down and land on a
> level place like a helicopter.

I don't see why you assume that ships have their contragravity aligned
perpendicular to the direction most needed.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 02:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 31 01:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Secure Systems (was: Prevalence of grav vehicles)
In-Reply-To: <cd89e5cd7b0f.cd7b0fcd89e5@us.army.mil>
References: <cd89e5cd7b0f.cd7b0fcd89e5@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <3829.64.8.3.28.1030782506.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>

For what it is worth...

  Nothing states who or what software has to be in operation on any of the
  vessals in operation on today's oceans.  Nor do we regulate what
  software is used on board aircraft from various nations.  The only thing
  that is required I suppose, is that the craft is rated as being "Safe". 
  I would imagine too, that only "regulators" can determine if software is
  safe or not, or whether a craft is considered to be safe or not.  All
  things considered - the craft *is* insured.  If the craft crashes, the
  Bank still gets its money.  If the operator of the craft is involved in
  any liability issues - the Bank still has a lien on the craft.  All
  things considered, the Bank is already well protected without saying
  "You must use software approved by the Imperium."





From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 02:41:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 31 01:41:04 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
Message-ID: <cd845bcda3cf.cda3cfcd845b@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: Timothy Little <tim@freeman.little-possums.net>
Date: Saturday, August 31, 2002 11:23 am
Subject: Re: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?

> Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> > A 90 degree deviation represents a serious overload, and can 
> only be
> > done for a few minutes.  Thus, a ship still has to be 
> streamlined to
> > enter an atmosphere, but it can settle straight down and land on a
> > level place like a helicopter.
> 
> I don't see why you assume that ships have their contragravity aligned
> perpendicular to the direction most needed.

Oh, boy!  The old perpendicular-vs.-parallel flame war begins again....

*grabs a can of 7-Up and a bag of Doritos, sits back to watch*




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 03:26:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert O'Connor)
Date: Sat Aug 31 02:26:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
Message-ID: <000001c250d0$4e485ca0$669d67cb@robert>

Robert Uhl wrote:-
> Kwon has posted data to the effect that Newtonian physics is _wrong_
when
> determining Mercury's orbit.  That's a fairly significant error, don't
you
> think?

Yes, if you're trying to accurately model the orbit of Mercury. No, if
you consider how big the discrepancy is (ISTR a small fraction of a
percent).

> What if, for example, it can be shown that reality is substantially
> subjective on a large scale?  Is it even possible to demonstrate that,
> were it true?  Think about it...

I have, and it disturbs me.

Then Feyerabend and the other really whacko post-modernists are right.
Equal time for voodoo, alchemy and 'creation science' in education ; all
this science mumbo-jumbo is just another system of rituals anyway.
Results? We just got lucky with the scientific method.

You can build atom bombs with coconut shells, if you just *believe*...

It all depends on what you mean by 'substantially subjective'.



Robert O'Connor
Medico, gamer


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 04:13:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 31 03:13:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Solomani influences
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.33.0208231046470.19206-100000@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020831.010147.8p3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail (2002-Aug-23) you write:

> On Tue, 20 Aug 2002, DeGraff, Jesse wrote:
>
>> When I went to Dragon*Con last year, my roomate & I were walking down
>> the street from our hotel to the conference hotel when we noticed that
>> the manhole covers in Atlanta look EXACTLY like the Sol symbol :)
>> I'll try and remember to post a pic when I get home tonight.
>
>
> When I saw the Starport Authority logo in GT:Starports, with the obvious
> Sol symbol on the planet, I thought "there must have been some SolSec mole
> on *that* design committee...

If you are talking about a circle divided into quarters, that's the
standard astronomical/astrological symbol for Earth. 

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 05:29:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 31 04:29:02 2002
Subject: [TML] OT and TML-Chat
In-Reply-To: <005101c249f5$44347960$fb1abd50@martinjd>
Message-ID: <20020831.032737.7H4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail (2002-Aug-22) you write:

> As to filtering... I've just discovered I lost a critical business email
> because its title contained one of my filter words....

Which is why all my filters for email merely *move* things to different
directories, rather than deleting anything.

I have to spend a bit of time doing a quick scan of the "spam" folders,
but at least I can't miss important mail.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 06:16:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 31 05:16:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Halon?
In-Reply-To: <16.2497c159.2aa1cfcc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020831.042928.5a2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail (today) you write:

>  >Here-and-now, after the Halon floods the computer room, there's a whole 
>  >dance with fans to clear the place out before people go in.
>  >
>  >(Just as Halon displaces O2 in fire-fighting, hemoglobin is more fond of 
>  >Halon than O2... which makes it bad ju-ju to be huffing.)
>
> http://www.h3r.com/halon/

Better try *reading* the info at the URL. Halon is *inert*. It doesn't
react with hemoglobin. Nor with much of anything else. It supresses
fires by *replacing* the air in the room. Which is why humans had best
*leave* the room before the halon system triggers. 

If you are in the room, you just need to get out before you run out of
oxygen. Not because the halon has done anything to *you*, but because
it has pushed all the air (and oxygen) *physically* out of the room.

I've worked in a room with a halon systm...

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 06:19:41 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 31 05:19:41 2002
Subject: [TML] Secure Systems (was: Prevalence of grav vehicles)
In-Reply-To: <3829.64.8.3.28.1030782506.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <20020831.043501.2X7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail (today) you write:

> For what it is worth...
>
>   Nothing states who or what software has to be in operation on any of the
>   vessals in operation on today's oceans.  Nor do we regulate what
>   software is used on board aircraft from various nations.

Want to bet?

Any software used in *controlling* the aircraft goes thru certifcation,
just as all; the avionics do. 

Check back posts in comp.risks or the archives of that newsgroup for
many references to the testing (and failures thereof).

Heck, reading comp.risks should give many GMs all sorts of nasty ideas.
<g>

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 06:23:29 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat Aug 31 05:23:29 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: deckplans -- 200 ton merchant transport vessel
In-Reply-To: <cc2fe9cc32b1.cc32b1cc2fe9@us.army.mil>
Message-ID: <20020831.043801.9T8.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

In mail (today) you write:

>> >I think
>> >that the US Space Shuttle has plans for venting the
>> >compartment to space for fighting major fires - would
>> >vacuum be more hazardous to people than halon?
>> 
>> The shuttle's tiny inhabited space with fully trained crew can 
>> vent and 
>> recharge quickly and has little room for firefighting equipment, 
>> and to my 
>> knowledge the crew is not expected to conduct operations while 
>> dealing with a 
>> fire.  A 200 ton merchant vessel with passengers cannot vent and 
>> recharge 
>> quickly, has room for firefighting equipment, and may need to 
>> continue 
>> operations while the fire is in progress.  The simplest way to 
>> deal with a 
>> fire without causing more immediate problems is halon (or whatever 
>> non-toxic 
>> equivilant exists in the future).  The Erin can vent too, but I 
>> thought it 
>> should have more options.

Also, in zero g fires are a *lot* harder to start. They *require*
forced air circulation, as there's no convection to bring in fresh air
and get rid of smoke and other gases.

So in Traveller one of the steps in fire-fighting will be cutting off
the ventilation *and gravity in the affected area.

-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 06:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 31 05:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: deckplans -- 200 ton merchant transport vessel
Message-ID: <cfcb98cfc8c9.cfc8c9cfcb98@us.army.mil>


----- Original Message -----
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Saturday, August 31, 2002 3:38 pm
Subject: Re: [TML] Re: deckplans -- 200 ton merchant transport vessel

> In mail (today) you write:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> Also, in zero g fires are a *lot* harder to start. They *require*
> forced air circulation, as there's no convection to bring in fresh air
> and get rid of smoke and other gases.
> 
> So in Traveller one of the steps in fire-fighting will be cutting off
> the ventilation *and gravity in the affected area.

To the utter dismay of anyone trapped in the affected compartment, of 
course.... 

After all, getting to the necessary gear to survive the fire becomes a 
bit more difficult once the gravity is cut, at least for any passengers 
in the area (crewbeings are assumed to have at least passing familiarity 
with moving under zero-gee conditions).  I see plenty of scope for panic 
among passengers under such conditions.... <eg>


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 06:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Hal)
Date: Sat Aug 31 05:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Secure Systems (was: Prevalence of grav vehicles)
In-Reply-To: <20020831.043501.2X7.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <3829.64.8.3.28.1030782506.webmail@email1.buffnet.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020831090428.00a53300@mail.buffnet.net>

At 04:35 AM 08/31/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>In mail (today) you write:
>
> > For what it is worth...
> >
> >   Nothing states who or what software has to be in operation on any of the
> >   vessals in operation on today's oceans.  Nor do we regulate what
> >   software is used on board aircraft from various nations.
>
>Want to bet?
>
>Any software used in *controlling* the aircraft goes thru certifcation,
>just as all; the avionics do.
>
>Check back posts in comp.risks or the archives of that newsgroup for
>many references to the testing (and failures thereof).
>
>Heck, reading comp.risks should give many GMs all sorts of nasty ideas.
><g>

Perhaps I should have been more specific.  No one says that Italians have 
to use Xx software, while Germans have to use Xx software in German, nor... 
you get my drift?  If it flies, and it does not experience failure - then 
no one cares.  Not really.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 07:59:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Schwartz)
Date: Sat Aug 31 06:59:02 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
In-Reply-To: <20020831182325.A14959@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <a.245948cd.2aa1be87@aol.com> <a.245948cd.2aa1be87@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020831095655.03a081a0@mail.comcast.net>

At 04:23 AM 8/31/2002, you wrote:
>Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> > A 90 degree deviation represents a serious overload, and can only be
> > done for a few minutes.  Thus, a ship still has to be streamlined to
> > enter an atmosphere, but it can settle straight down and land on a
> > level place like a helicopter.
>
>I don't see why you assume that ships have their contragravity aligned
>perpendicular to the direction most needed.


You're thinking something like the "Delta Clipper" design....

Which would be very cool. 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 08:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Schwartz)
Date: Sat Aug 31 07:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Halon?
In-Reply-To: <20020831.042928.5a2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
References: <16.2497c159.2aa1cfcc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020831100435.03a6bec0@mail.comcast.net>

At 08:29 AM 8/31/2002, you wrote:
>In mail (today) you write:
>
> >  >Here-and-now, after the Halon floods the computer room, there's a whole
> >  >dance with fans to clear the place out before people go in.
> >  >
> >  >(Just as Halon displaces O2 in fire-fighting, hemoglobin is more fond of
> >  >Halon than O2... which makes it bad ju-ju to be huffing.)
> >
> > http://www.h3r.com/halon/
>
>Better try *reading* the info at the URL. Halon is *inert*. It doesn't
>react with hemoglobin. Nor with much of anything else. It supresses
>fires by *replacing* the air in the room. Which is why humans had best
>*leave* the room before the halon system triggers.
>
>If you are in the room, you just need to get out before you run out of
>oxygen. Not because the halon has done anything to *you*, but because
>it has pushed all the air (and oxygen) *physically* out of the room.
>
>I've worked in a room with a halon systm...

So have I.... and the story I was told by the people that serviced it was 
that it was "more attractive" than O2 for most oxidization reactions.

(Shrug) I could be wrong. 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 09:14:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Andrew & Dii Moffatt-Vallance)
Date: Sat Aug 31 08:14:03 2002
Subject: [TML] The guys that beat the Romans (ObTrav?)
In-Reply-To: <B99429E3.6B927%listmom@travellercentral.com>
References: <20020830023329.10197.qmail@web20910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3D718590.15440.68A46F2@localhost>

On 29 Aug 2002, at 19:43, Listmom wrote:

> on 8/29/02 7:33 PM, Paul Walker at traveller_tv@yahoo.com wrote:
> One best preserved for another list.  As this topic is verging on One of The
> Forbidden Topics, we should bring this right back to Traveller or end it
> before things get unpleasant.

Mr X advances into the room and casually places a live grenade on the 
table

Mr Y approaches the table and removes the pin

Listmom acts promptly and throws the grenade out of the room allowing it 
to detonate in some safelocation

However, at the risk of bring the grenade back; and ObTrav

"A new Zion"

Background
After the foundation of the Terran Confederation, many minority ethnic and 
cultural groups became concerned at preserving their own distinct heritage 
in the face of the rapidly emerging "Terran" culture. To aid these groups the 
Confederation formed the Confederation Agency for the Preservation of 
Indigenous Cultures (CAPIC). CAPIC believed that the best chance of 
preserving these cultures was to relocate them to the colonies (which 
coincidentally, had a pressing need of new colonists). Included in this 
program where several "long range colonies" where distinct cultures where 
dispatch far into uncharted space (mostly rimward) to provide a "bolt hole" 
in the event of the Confederation's collapse. A group of Jews rejected the 
orthodox tenants of Zionism and elected to move to the stars (radical 
change I know, but hey this is SF). So during the Empty Peace, CAPIC 
dispatched half a million Jewish colonists in search of a new Jerusalem 
amongst the stars.

Adventure seeds
Pathfinding: The PCs are a trailblazing group, travelling in advance of the 
main colony fleet. The PCs must explore uncharted space and find a safe 
home where the colony can thrive

Conversion: The fleet encounters an unknown primitive minor race. The 
colonists seek to rest and resupply before moving on. However, the aliens 
come to regard the colonists as Gods. The PCs must come up with a 
solution. Do they try to persuade the aliens that they are not Gods? Do 
they try to convert the race to Judaism? Do the colonists just leave only to 
be contacted centuries latter by the aliens looking for their messah?

Fast Forward: Several thousand years later (approx 1100 imperial), 
Solomani scouts on the Rimward expeditions find an entire sector full of 
Solomani following a long lost ancient belief.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 09:26:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug 31 08:26:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Knowing and doing
In-Reply-To: <3D700A53.6090607@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
References: <F210oXfAJsCAMboEwRz00017376@hotmail.com>
 <3D700A53.6090607@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <m3vg5rrqwx.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:
> 
> It's hardly true, also, that Russia is lacking in the entrepenurial
> spirit, witness the immediate appearance of street vendors, new
> businesses, etc. that have sprouted in Russia since the fall of
> Communism.

It is true, however, that Russians wouldn't know how to run a business
if you gave them a six-year tutorial.  Note the average lifespan of
Russian restaraunt.  In the early '90s, we figured that it was because
in the Soviet Union all one had to do was start selling something and
people would come try it.  But it's been a decade since then, and they
still don't seem to grasp how to advertise or market.

Which I don't get, because _uniformly_ ever Russian restaraunt I've
ever been to has had _excellent_ food.

I'm not certain that the appearance of businesses is really indicative
of Russian initiative.  My experience with Russians (and other Slavs)
in general is that they rarely seem to show a lot of desire to change
things, buck authority or set out on their own.  Very much a serf
mentality.  But my experience is limited to
Russian/Ukrainian/&c. Orthodox, who are immigrants to the US, and many
of whom escaped before the Revolution--and thus it's likely that the
sample is flawed.

> What they are lacking in large part(and what they share with many
> other third-world countries, as well as the OTU, for that matter) is
> the rule of law, and a *tradition* of such.

That's a major factor, to be sure.  Without strong contract, property
& anti-trust law, real markets are just not workable.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
I don't have any solution but I certainly admire the problem.
                                        --Ashleigh Brilliant

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 09:37:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug 31 08:37:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Knowing and doing
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020830170616.00b33ba8@mailhost.efn.org>
References: <5.1.1.6.0.20020830170616.00b33ba8@mailhost.efn.org>
Message-ID: <m3r8gfrqfv.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

"Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org> writes:

> > If there is ever a textbook example of how NOT to help a country
> > transition from dictatorship with a controlled economy to open
> > democracy with free markets, Russia is it.
> 
> Or from feudalism to an industrial state, or...

I don't know about that.  Given the constraints it was operating
under, and the small amount of time available, I think that Russia did
fairly well in the 19th century.  Remember, it's Tsar Alexander who
marches into Paris.  Recall that it took the combination of England
and France to defeat Russia in the Crimea.  Despite its problems,
Russia in the dawn years of the 20th century was in decent shape.

Had St. Nicholas the Royal Martyr not been ruled by his wife, had the
Great War never occurred, had Nicholas's generals been competent, had
Wilson either entered early or made it clear that he never would, had
any of a thousand other things been different, it's quite possible
that Russia would be the super-power, and not the US.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
The strongest reason for the right for the people to bear arms is, as a
last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.  
                                              --Thomas Jefferson

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 10:09:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 31 09:09:02 2002
Subject: Was: Re: [TML] Halon? Becomes: Cryogenic gases
Message-ID: <200208311608.NYK01894@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Jeff Schwartz says
>>I've worked in a room with a halon systm...
>
>So have I.... and the story I was told by the people that 
>serviced it was that it was "more attractive" than O2 for 
>most oxidization reactions.

If it was attractive to O2, it would be a fuel.

That aside, I remember working with liquid hydrogen and 
liquid helium before.  The primary safety concern we had 
(aside from combustion of hydrogen), was the fact that a 
small amount of cryogenic liquid can rapidly become a large 
volume of gas - enough gas to displace all of the air in a 
room in a matter of seconds, and potentially in a wing of a 
building in a matter of minutes.

________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 10:19:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Schwartz)
Date: Sat Aug 31 09:19:02 2002
Subject: Was: Re: [TML] Halon? Becomes: Cryogenic gases
In-Reply-To: <200208311608.NYK01894@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020831121405.03235a10@mail.comcast.net>

At 12:08 PM 8/31/2002, you wrote:
>Jeff Schwartz says
> >>I've worked in a room with a halon systm...
> >
> >So have I.... and the story I was told by the people that
> >serviced it was that it was "more attractive" than O2 for
> >most oxidization reactions.
>
>If it was attractive to O2, it would be a fuel.

No, more attractive to the fuel than oxygen....


>That aside, I remember working with liquid hydrogen and
>liquid helium before.  The primary safety concern we had
>(aside from combustion of hydrogen), was the fact that a
>small amount of cryogenic liquid can rapidly become a large
>volume of gas - enough gas to displace all of the air in a
>room in a matter of seconds, and potentially in a wing of a
>building in a matter of minutes.

Isn't pv=nrt nifty? (grin) 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 11:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 31 10:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Highports (Was:Cargo Tonnage)
Message-ID: <159.13668fef.2aa255d0@aol.com>

 >>What free trader wants to spend 50-80 million on a mobile home he cant=20
 >>land and have a barbeque over the cooling reactor exhaust of? =3D=DE
 >
 >Depends on if he can paint the Ship's Boat bright orange, stencil "General 
Lee" on  
 >the side of it, and add a PA system that plays Dixie.

I'd buy one.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 11:49:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 31 10:49:02 2002
Subject: [TML] turret maintenance
Message-ID: <87.20b0f34f.2aa25b81@aol.com>

 >Might want to think about how the turrets are accessed
 >during flight for maintenance, repair and manual control.
 >They ought to be on an outboard bulkhead with people
 >on the other side of it.

Now there's an interesting subject.  Just how are turrets designed so that 
they can be accessed while in a vaccuum?  Do you envision them as a hollow 
shell, like a tank turret, that are nothing more than a rotating bulge on the 
pressure hull?  I'm not sure I can envision a decent air seal on that.  Or 
are they a structure independent of the pressure hull, rotating on an 
external pivot or track?  If they are, then just how would you access them 
from inside the pressure hull?  By aligning a pressure hull hatch and a 
turret hatch?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 11:59:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Schwartz)
Date: Sat Aug 31 10:59:03 2002
Subject: [TML] turret maintenance
In-Reply-To: <87.20b0f34f.2aa25b81@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020831135432.0391f180@mail.comcast.net>

At 01:48 PM 8/31/2002, you wrote:
>  >Might want to think about how the turrets are accessed
>  >during flight for maintenance, repair and manual control.
>  >They ought to be on an outboard bulkhead with people
>  >on the other side of it.
>
>Now there's an interesting subject.  Just how are turrets designed so that
>they can be accessed while in a vaccuum?  Do you envision them as a hollow
>shell, like a tank turret, that are nothing more than a rotating bulge on the
>pressure hull?  I'm not sure I can envision a decent air seal on that.  Or
>are they a structure independent of the pressure hull, rotating on an
>external pivot or track?  If they are, then just how would you access them
>from inside the pressure hull?  By aligning a pressure hull hatch and a
>turret hatch?


My view on beam weapons such as lasers and PB's is that the "turret" is a 
flat patch of hull, and the 'beam" is steered onto the target in the same 
way as phased-array radar works.

Nice and simple, no moving parts, no problems with pressure seals.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 12:31:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug 31 11:31:05 2002
Subject: [TML] turret maintenance
In-Reply-To: <87.20b0f34f.2aa25b81@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B9965964.6BADB%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/31/02 10:48 AM, Flykiller@aol.com at Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

> Now there's an interesting subject.  Just how are turrets designed so tha=
t
> they can be accessed while in a vaccuum?  Do you envision them as a hollo=
w
> shell, like a tank turret, that are nothing more than a rotating bulge on=
 the
> pressure hull?  I'm not sure I can envision a decent air seal on that.  O=
r
> are they a structure independent of the pressure hull, rotating on an
> external pivot or track?  If they are, then just how would you access the=
m
> from inside the pressure hull?  By aligning a pressure hull hatch and a
> turret hatch?

Well, looking at the deck plans provided with Traveller, it seems obvious
that turrets have internal areas that are occupied by the pilot (a la Star
Wars).

Personally, I've always view a more likely design to be akin to the Air
Force ABL with the laser element in the hull, and the turrets being nothing
more that aiming and tracking assemblies.
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 13:21:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 31 12:21:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
In-Reply-To: <20020831190005.13929.46545.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17lDnC-0004qJ-00@hall.mail.mindspring.net>

"Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au> wrote:

> Robert Uhl wrote:-
> > Kwon has posted data to the effect that Newtonian physics is _wrong_
> > when determining Mercury's orbit.  That's a fairly significant error,
> > don't you think?
> 
> Yes, if you're trying to accurately model the orbit of Mercury. No, if
> you consider how big the discrepancy is (ISTR a small fraction of a
> percent).
> 
> > What if, for example, it can be shown that reality is substantially
> > subjective on a large scale?  Is it even possible to demonstrate
> > that, were it true?  Think about it...
> 
> I have, and it disturbs me.
> 
> Then Feyerabend and the other really whacko post-modernists are right.
> Equal time for voodoo, alchemy and 'creation science' in education ;
> all this science mumbo-jumbo is just another system of rituals anyway.
> Results? We just got lucky with the scientific method.
> 
> You can build atom bombs with coconut shells, if you just *believe*...

That doesn't sound disturbing to me at all, it sounds absolutely 
wonderful and deeply fascinating.  It also sounds like such a world 
could be a fascinating RPG setting.  I don't quite believe our world 
is actually like that, but I can hope...

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
 Technophilic postmodernist




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 15:24:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug 31 14:24:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How fast is my base spinning
Message-ID: <3D71339B.8034E469@mindspring.com>

My Players want to use the centripedal ? force of a spinning asteroid
base for the gravity. I must be an idiot as I can't find the calculation
using googol. Can any one help me? Thanks.
-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
When in doubt, have two guys come through the door with guns.
                               -Raymond Chandler

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 15:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 31 14:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: deckplans -- 200 ton merchant transport vessel
Message-ID: <43.10d898cf.2aa28ec4@aol.com>

 >> So in Traveller one of the steps in fire-fighting will be cutting off
 >> the ventilation *and gravity in the affected area.
 >
 >To the utter dismay of anyone trapped in the affected compartment, of 
 >course.... 

Concur.  Cutting gravity and dumping air are great technical solutions to 
firefighting -- if you don't have any people on-board.

Except for my own designs, never once have I seen a deckplan or tonnage 
allocation that provided for reserve air.  It would be interesting to see how 
much tonnage would have to be devoted to reserve air sufficient to recharge a 
vented engineering space on a given ship.  Say, 14psi to 1400psi -- 100 to 1?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 15:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 31 14:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] turret maintenance
Message-ID: <f8.20d3f751.2aa29060@aol.com>

 >My view on beam weapons such as lasers and PB's is that the "turret" is a 
 >flat patch of hull, and the 'beam" is steered onto the target in the same 
 >way as phased-array radar works.
 >
 >Nice and simple, no moving parts, no problems with pressure seals.

Can light be directed in that manner?  Just how is it "steered"?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 15:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 31 14:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] turret maintenance
Message-ID: <11d.163ae94f.2aa2916d@aol.com>

 >Well, looking at the deck plans provided with Traveller, it seems obvious
 >that turrets have internal areas that are occupied by the pilot (a la Star
 >Wars).

You can do individual turrets that way, but not grouped turrets.  I would 
think weapons that a gunner actually sits behind would be confined to small 
low-tech vessels.  All others would be remotely operated.

 >Personally, I've always view a more likely design to be akin to the Air
 >Force ABL with the laser element in the hull, and the turrets being nothing
 >more that aiming and tracking assemblies.

How does that work?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 15:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug 31 14:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] How fast is my base spinning
In-Reply-To: <3D71339B.8034E469@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B9968852.6BB0C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/31/02 2:22 PM, alan spik at babyduck@mindspring.com wrote:

> My Players want to use the centripedal ? force of a spinning asteroid
> base for the gravity. I must be an idiot as I can't find the calculation
> using googol. Can any one help me? Thanks.

Assuming you are trying to achieve 1G of centripedal acceleration, just use

        a =3D v^2/r

where v is the linear velocity and r is the radius.

        v =3D 2=BCr/T

where T is the period of rotation

or, for 1 G

        9.8m/s^2 =3D (2=BCr/T)^2/r

Given a value of r, solve for T to get the period of rotation

The rate of rotation is a function of the radius of the asteroid.  Also not
that id the asteroid is too small, the difference in force applied to the
fee vs. the head will cause some problems.  The radius of the system will
have to be large enough so that this difference is not significant.

Note.  I belief the above to be correct, but it's from memory.  Also not,
this formula is derived from Newtonian physics, so some on this list may
call the whole calculation into question.

Tod
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 15:56:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug 31 14:56:02 2002
Subject: [TML] turret maintenance
In-Reply-To: <f8.20d3f751.2aa29060@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B99688B5.6BB0D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/31/02 2:34 PM, Flykiller@aol.com at Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>> My view on beam weapons such as lasers and PB's is that the "turret" is =
a
>> flat patch of hull, and the 'beam" is steered onto the target in the sam=
e
>> way as phased-array radar works.
>>=20
>> Nice and simple, no moving parts, no problems with pressure seals.
>=20
> Can light be directed in that manner?  Just how is it "steered"?

Gravity waves, obviously :)

For more low tech situations, just replace with mirror.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 16:00:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug 31 15:00:03 2002
Subject: [TML] turret maintenance
In-Reply-To: <11d.163ae94f.2aa2916d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B99689DD.6BB0E%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/31/02 2:38 PM, Flykiller@aol.com at Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>> Well, looking at the deck plans provided with Traveller, it seems obviou=
s
>> that turrets have internal areas that are occupied by the pilot (a la St=
ar
>> Wars).
>=20
> You can do individual turrets that way, but not grouped turrets.  I would
> think weapons that a gunner actually sits behind would be confined to sma=
ll
> low-tech vessels.  All others would be remotely operated.

I was speaking from the perspective of small vessels.  I'm sure of the
validity of multiple small turrets on large vessels.  This is something aki=
n
to the old pre-dreadnaught warships.  Instead, why not concentrate your
lasers into 'a few large turrets'.

Her again, I'm looking at this from the perspective of the ABL.  There is
one or a few large lasing units in the hull of the ship.  The beam is split
and directed to a few turrets that are no more than aiming devices
(individual mirrors with tracking and aiming gear.)
>=20
>> Personally, I've always view a more likely design to be akin to the Air
>> Force ABL with the laser element in the hull, and the turrets being noth=
ing
>> more that aiming and tracking assemblies.
>=20
> How does that work?

See http://www.airbornelaser.com

Tod

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 16:04:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sat Aug 31 15:04:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Computers in Traveller
References: <E17jVbt-0006fB-00@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>	<3D6B505D.7000702@usisp.com> <m3znv7gvom.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>	<3D6EDDD1.4000108@usisp.com> <m3vg5sbmzy.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <3D71336A.30908@usisp.com>

Robert Uhl < @4dv.net=""> wrote:

 >richard honeycutt <richard@usisp.com> writes:
 >
 >>Why assume that OS's in the future will be secure?
 >>
 >
 >Because it's really not that hard a problem.  The problem is piss-poor
 >programmers and languages, not any technical aspect of security.  The
 >OpenBSD project went some 6 years before a remote root exploit was
 >found--extend that to thousands of years of development, and I think
 >that things'll be pretty good.
 >
     Then you also assume that all software will be bugfree as well. And
never
need to be upgraded for any purpose.  Except for 'hello.c', I doubt any
software
is bugfree. Especially as software is written mainly to make a profit
and deadlines
prevent thorough testing. Windows has had hundreds of man-years coding,
and testing
yet is still crap. Again, why assume that os's in the future are secure
and bugfree?
If that's the case, then the market for computers and software would be
stagnant.

 >Of course, this only really applies if technology is a process of
 >continual improvement upon a codebase (as in free software), and not a
 >process of continual re-write and re-design (as in most, if not all,
 >proprietary software).  The sooner everything is GPLed, the sooner
 >it'll be secure.
 >
     Given the drive for profit by the megacorps, I doubt the gpl will
last except
in niche markets or on individual worlds. I imagine the megacorps would make
Microsoft look like a pussycat in protecting patents ( like all good
Bilani should ).
And given the number of worlds, there must be thousands of computer types
and computer languages in existance most not 100% compatible with
others. How
else will manufacturers differentiate their products.
     So what is the absolute standard demanded of the Imperium as minimum
to be
awarded contracts. What languages are used?

     My characters code their ship's computers in FORTH.







From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 16:07:59 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sat Aug 31 15:07:59 2002
Subject: [TML] Physic wackiness
References: <B9946C5A.6B9A7%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D713D32.6090700@usisp.com>

Tod Glenn wrote:

>on 8/29/02 9:46 PM, John T. Kwon at jtkwon@jtkgroup.com wrote:
>
>>richard honeycutt says
>>
>>>Yes. F=ma applies.
>>>
>>Only if you're using a rocket.  Not if you're bending
>>spacetime.
>>
>>The Earth is bending spacetime right now - just not nearly
>>enough to bend the light around us.  But it's bent enough to
>>really hurt you if you jumped from the 10th floor.
>>
>
>Yes, and earth has a mass of something like 6x10^24kg.  Your going to curve
>space to the same extent (or 6x that) from a ship?  And using how much
>power.
>
    I don't know if e=mc^2 applies here. But certainly it is an 
ridiculous high number.
Imagine simulating the mass of 6 earths in a space of a few meters. If 
the field is
from a small source, the vectors would not be parallel for each piece of 
ship
and it might be ripped apart. Driving while near another ship would force it
off course yet that other ship would only see itself moving in a 
straight line,
if it didn't tear that ship apart also. What effect doe sgravitic 
focusing have
on this postualted drive system.
    While this idea of warp drive is interesting...it seems a collossal 
handwave
to explain reactionless thrusters ( which I think are obscene ).
   
    Now for a wacky idea.

    There is no such thing as matter . It is simply our perception of 
curved spacetime.
What we perceive when we touch something is the interactions of electron 
fields in
our fingers and electron fields in an object. In another words, all 
objects are made of
energy or manifestations of curved spacetime. Density is a measure of 
the slope of the
gravity well and mass is a measure of its depth. This all applies to sub 
atomic levels
within everything. Matter is a property of curved spacetime. Curved 
spacetime 'makes'
matter...matter does not curve spacetime. Spacetime is dimpled at all 
levels like a
golfball and the universe is trying to get flat again.
    If spacetime can be conceptualized as a sheet of rubber with 
dimples, then J-space
is the part 'under' the sheet and totally outside our perceptions. Ships 
tumble out of
jumpspace in gravity wells.....when they run into dimples 'under' the 
sheet of normal
spacetime.
    Time doesn't exists either. It is just a constant frame of refernce 
for us humans. When we
say feet per second, what we really mean is feet per so many vibrations 
of a cesium atom.
Our use of time is as a yardstick to measure other events relative to 
vibrations of a cesium atom.
Therefore time travel doesn't exist either. (although it could be 
simulated by repositioning every
subatomic particle and quanta of energy in states they had sometime in 
the past or in states they
might have in the future )



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 16:11:57 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sat Aug 31 15:11:57 2002
Subject: [TML] What is a ton of cargo, anyway?
References: <200208300446.NVS00850@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D713D8B.7000304@usisp.com>

John T. Kwon wrote:

>richard honeycutt says
>
>>   Yes. F=ma applies.
>>
>
>Only if you're using a rocket.  Not if you're bending 
>spacetime.
>
Betcha it takes more energy to bend spacetime than it does to push
a rocket.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 16:16:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (alan spik)
Date: Sat Aug 31 15:16:04 2002
Subject: [TML] How fast is my base spinning
References: <B9968852.6BB0C%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D713F61.5C46363E@mindspring.com>

Tod Glenn wrote:
> 
> on 8/31/02 2:22 PM, alan spik at babyduck@mindspring.com wrote:
> 
> > My Players want to use the centripedal ? force of a spinning asteroid
> > base for the gravity. I must be an idiot as I can't find the calculation
> > using googol. Can any one help me? Thanks.
> 
> Assuming you are trying to achieve 1G of centripedal acceleration, just use
> 
>         a = v^2/r
> 
> where v is the linear velocity and r is the radius.
> 
>         v = 2r/T
> 
> where T is the period of rotation
> 
> or, for 1 G
> 
>         9.8m/s^2 = (2r/T)^2/r
> 
> Given a value of r, solve for T to get the period of rotation

Radius is in meters? (~20 at the outermost habitable area) and time in
Minutes? (~2) Is this too fast for an asteroid to spin?
> 
> The rate of rotation is a function of the radius of the asteroid.  Also not
> that id the asteroid is too small, the difference in force applied to the
> fee vs. the head will cause some problems.  The radius of the system will
> have to be large enough so that this difference is not significant.
> 
> Note.  I belief the above to be correct, but it's from memory.  Also not,
> this formula is derived from Newtonian physics, so some on this list may
> call the whole calculation into question.
> 
> Tod
>

-- 
Visit my webpage often, and for long periods
www.geocities.com/lovetroll_2000
When in doubt, have two guys come through the door with guns.
                               -Raymond Chandler

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 16:21:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Sat Aug 31 15:21:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Computers in Traveller
Message-ID: <F196Danp0yA0FojonDU00001d82@hotmail.com>



richard honeycutt wrote
>Robert Uhl < @4dv.net=""> wrote:
>
> >richard honeycutt <richard@usisp.com> writes:
> >
> >>Why assume that OS's in the future will be secure?
> >>
> >
> >Because it's really not that hard a problem.  The problem is piss-poor
> >programmers and languages, not any technical aspect of security.  The
> >OpenBSD project went some 6 years before a remote root exploit was
> >found--extend that to thousands of years of development, and I think
> >that things'll be pretty good.
> >
>Then you also assume that all software will be bugfree as well. And never
>need to be upgraded for any purpose.  Except for 'hello.c', I doubt any 
>software
>is bugfree. Especially as software is written mainly to make a profit and 
>deadlines
>prevent thorough testing. Windows has had hundreds of man-years coding, and 
>testing
>yet is still crap. Again, why assume that os's in the future are secure and 
>bugfree?

Many systems today (nuclear powerplants, aircraft systems and military 
systems) are more or less bugfree/secure. It is just a question of 
priorities and cost. Consumer products will probably not be completly 
bugfree in the future but I belive that they will quite a bit better due to 
the large but slow market. Starship control systems, military networks, 
infrastructure systems will be just reliable as they are today which means 
no hacking the Zhodany mothership with a MacIntosh laptop.

>If that's the case, then the market for computers and software would be 
>stagnant.

Most markets in the Traveller universe seems to be stagnant.


Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 16:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Aug 31 15:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Moonshot
In-Reply-To: <424D6EA99E39D4118FA100508BDF09700DA22EBA@USCHM203>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020831182413.02bb6e88@192.168.0.1>

At 10:28 AM 8/29/2002 -0500, Hurrel, Brian wrote:
> >Larsen wrote:
> >   Well, the Moon Shot wasn't the way to do it in the first place.  What
> >it's actual goal was to beat the Commies to the Moon and nothing else.
> >After we beat the other tribe, why bother anymore?
>I recently read (very recently, less than 6 months ago) that Kennedy had
>very little real interest in space. He did, in fact, simply want to beat the
>Soviets. It was a bit disappointing for me, as I'd always imagined Kennedy
>had some sort of grand vision of humaniti's future in space. Instead it was
>just another political maneuver.

Oh...it gets better.  Check the date of his "reach the moon by the end of 
this decade" speech.
He gave it a week after the Bay of Pigs invasion failed.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"The final and best means of strengthening demand among consumers and
business is to reduce the burden on private income and the deterrence to
private initiative which are imposed by our present tax system, and this
administration pledged itself last summer to an across-the-board,
top-to-bottom cut in personal and corporate income taxes to be
enacted and become effective in 1963." -- President John F. Kennedy
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 16:40:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug 31 15:40:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Further thought on turrets
Message-ID: <B99693B0.6BB57%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

As I thought further on the implications of lasers for turrets, and podered
the design of the Airborne laser, it occurred to me that turrets as we know
them in Traveller don't make a lot of sense.  I am speaking of the large
external steerable pod with room for a gunner and having the weapon mounted
external in the turret.

This 'classic' turret design makes sense with terrestrial artillery, where
there are limits placed on the design because of the nature of tube
artillery.  But in the case of lasers, where the 'projectile' can be bounce=
d
around with mirrors, it seems an unlikely design, and indeed, there seems t=
o
be many reasons not to do it.

It we look at a tuuret as nothing more than a mirror aiming device, with th=
e
laser itself buried deep in the ship, under layers of armor, the advantages
are obvious.  The turret can be designed as a much less massive object.
That means that servos can be much small and less powerful, and the turret
can be much more responsive.  Also, the weapon itself is more protected.  A
hit is merely damage to an external mirror.

The next question become, is there a laser for each turret, or does it make
more sense to have a single, large laser in the hull, with a beam divider
splitting off laser energy to each turret?  Obviously, there are a number o=
f
factors here.  A single laser provides a single point of failure.  A hit in
the right (wrong0 place and you have lost all your laser capacity.  On the
other hand, there may be advantages.  Do lasers benefit form scale
efficiencies?  Will one large laser produce more power out per unit in than
10 lasers that are one tenth the size?

Perhaps, for redundancy, I have several large lasers in the hull.  Their
output is combined into a single beam (at the 'combiner') then fed into the
laser 'manager' where they are split off and routed to individual turrets a=
s
the computer and the fire control officer deem necessary.

Perhaps it is design philosophy.  With a single central laser serving
multiple turrets, the captain or fire control officer can decide to split
his laser into ten independent beams, or fewer more powerful ones, or even =
a
single massive beam.  Having turrets that can no longer bear on the target
becomes less of an issue.  Now, turrets that don't have a shot can have
their power rerouted to other turrets that do.  The total energy that can b=
e
brought to bear on the enemy remains constant.  Lastly, should one or
several turrets be damaged or destroyed, the laser output can again be
redirected.  I've lost 3 of ten turrets, but those remaining 7 are not
outputting more energy.

It certainly has interesting implications for space combat.  At the very
least, weapons management become a very complex job.  Do I want 10 beams to
engage multiple targets?  Do I want 5 that are twice as powerful?  One
really big one.  How about half my laser power to turret number one, and th=
e
rest spread over turrets 2 through 9?

One can also look at missiles in a different way.  Why put them in turrets?
They're steerable and programmable. Why not have a missile launcher that
fires from, say, the waits of the ship.  After launch, missiles correct
orientation and 'light up'.  Now my launcher is again buried safely under
armor instead of sitting vulnerable in an external turret.  The same for
sand casters.

Any thoughts/comments?
--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 16:44:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matt Ashley)
Date: Sat Aug 31 15:44:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Message Tag
In-Reply-To: <20020831013703.25765.23944.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020831224342.46195.qmail@web12304.mail.yahoo.com>

> Only replying 'cause I don't want anyone to think I support slavery.
> It's rotten.  But so is endorsing murder and rapine.
> 
> -- 
> Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
> Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and inconsistent
> with it.  But all science, in fact, rests on a basis of faith, for it
> assumes the permanence and uniformity of natural laws--a thing which
> can never be demonstrated.                           --Tyron Edwards
> 

Thanks Robert.  

Any war, especially a civil war is bound to raise strong emotions.  

Certainly the growth of Federal power as result of the war and many of the precedents set in the
course of prosecuting the war (on both sides) changed the nature of the Union forever (not even
counting the social ramifications of freeing the slaves which are still being felt to this day).

Matt

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 16:48:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 31 15:48:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: deckplans -- 200 ton merchant transport vessel
Message-ID: <200208312246.NYY00695@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Flykiller says
>Except for my own designs, never once have I seen a deckplan 
>or tonnage allocation that provided for reserve air.  It 
>would be interesting to see how much tonnage would have to 
>be devoted to reserve air sufficient to recharge a 
>vented engineering space on a given ship.  Say, 14psi to 
>1400psi -- 100 to 1?

I would think that some of that 4 dTons/person is life 
support, reserve air - but how much?  You would definitely 
have to have reserve air to run airlocks.

And I can think of the bad things that could happen if the 
reserve air tank blows inside the hull.
________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 17:01:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 31 16:01:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Further thought on turrets
Message-ID: <200208312300.NYY01311@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Tod Glenn asks
>Any thoughts/comments?

If you'll notice, the Airborne Laser (and its little brother, 
the Airborne Tactical Laser) are composed of steering unit 
with the laser inside (as you've posted before).

While the ATL has only one amplifier stage, the ABL has two 
amplifier stages, and will be expanded until the whole 747 is 
full of amplifier stages (I'm not sure if this is a total of 
eight or ten amplifiers).  The mirror remains the same.

For a ship design system, it would be interesting to be able 
to build one or more units inside the hull, with the ability 
to redirect through undamaged amplifiers inside the hull, and 
redirect out through an undamaged mirror or mirrors.  You 
might have a maximum power a particular mirror can withstand 
(and thus a maximum number of amplifiers used per mirror).

You could disperse through multiple mirrors to raise the odds 
of a hit, while lowering the penetration/damage, or send 
everything through the minimum number of mirrors to raise the 
penetration and damage.
________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 17:10:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug 31 16:10:02 2002
Subject: Was: Re: [TML] Halon? Becomes: Cryogenic gases
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020831121405.03235a10@mail.comcast.net>
References: <200208311608.NYK01894@vmms1.verisignmail.com> <5.1.1.6.0.20020831121405.03235a10@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20020901090941.A20618@freeman.little-possums.net>

Jeff Schwartz wrote:
> No, more attractive to the fuel than oxygen....

The first problem is: it isn't.  It's pretty much inert.

The second is that chemicals that are more attractive to each other
generally release more energy when they bind.  This is not usually a
good thing when trying to put out a fire.


> Isn't pv=nrt nifty? (grin) 

Now think of the implications for Traveller, which has *tonnes* of
liquid hydrogen in the ship ... :/


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 17:28:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug 31 16:28:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: deckplans -- 200 ton merchant transport vessel
In-Reply-To: <43.10d898cf.2aa28ec4@aol.com>
References: <43.10d898cf.2aa28ec4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020901092701.B20618@freeman.little-possums.net>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> Except for my own designs, never once have I seen a deckplan or
> tonnage allocation that provided for reserve air.

In MTU, there is ample reserve oxygen in the fuel tanks, it is
produced as a byproduct of refining water to LHyd fuel.  If you have
ammonia, then there's nitrogen as well.  Both are very common
unrefined fuels, and since each dton of water produces more than 3500
dtons of breathable oxygen, recovering O2 from CO2 is not usually a
concern.  Each dton of ammonia would make up about 800 dtons of full
pressure air.

So separate air tankage space is not necessary.


>  It would be interesting to see how much tonnage would have to be
> devoted to reserve air sufficient to recharge a vented engineering
> space on a given ship.  Say, 14psi to 1400psi -- 100 to 1?

Since cryogenic equipment is already in place (for storing LHyd), I
suspect that any reserve air would be stored in liquid form at more
like 800:1 volume.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 17:49:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Schwartz)
Date: Sat Aug 31 16:49:04 2002
Subject: [TML] turret maintenance
In-Reply-To: <f8.20d3f751.2aa29060@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020831194342.03ad1ec0@mail.comcast.net>

At 05:34 PM 8/31/2002, you wrote:
>  >My view on beam weapons such as lasers and PB's is that the "turret" is a
>  >flat patch of hull, and the 'beam" is steered onto the target in the same
>  >way as phased-array radar works.
>  >
>  >Nice and simple, no moving parts, no problems with pressure seals.
>
>Can light be directed in that manner?  Just how is it "steered"?


Lasers at TL 13 and above are supposed to be X-Ray, right?

X-Rays are (IIRC) deflected by magnetic fields. 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 17:53:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug 31 16:53:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Computers in Traveller
In-Reply-To: <3D71336A.30908@usisp.com>
References: <E17jVbt-0006fB-00@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>
 <3D6B505D.7000702@usisp.com> <m3znv7gvom.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
 <3D6EDDD1.4000108@usisp.com> <m3vg5sbmzy.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
 <3D71336A.30908@usisp.com>
Message-ID: <m3ofbibn9i.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

richard honeycutt <richard@usisp.com> writes:
>
> > Because it's really not that hard a problem.  The problem is
> > piss-poor programmers and languages, not any technical aspect of
> > security.  The OpenBSD project went some 6 years before a remote
> > root exploit was found--extend that to thousands of years of
> > development, and I think that things'll be pretty good.
>
> Then you also assume that all software will be bugfree as well.

By the time the Far Future rolls around, yes.  Even now it, with
languages such as Lisp, there have been constructed programs which can
provably transform a program into an optimised version _without_ bugs.

> Especially as software is written mainly to make a profit and
> deadlines prevent thorough testing.

That's part of the problem: software is rushed out the door to meet a
marketing deadline, rather than finely crafted over years to be
perfect.  But I don't think that the commercial software world has
many more decades to live--free software is too appealing.

> Again, why assume that os's in the future are secure and bugfree?

Thousands of years of testing each and every pathway through the
code.  Hundreds of millions of eyes examining the code, looking for a
flaw.  Billions of small fixes, each proved to have solved a problem
and _not_ caused any previous problem to recur.  Test suites the input
for which takes up more disk space than currently exists on Earth.

> If that's the case, then the market for computers and software would
> be stagnant.

It'd be a commodity market, as all markets should eventually become.
No problem there.

> Given the drive for profit by the megacorps, I doubt the GPL will
> last except in niche markets or on individual worlds.

Well, one has no choice: if one redistributes GPLed software, one
_must_ distribute the source as well, and allow the users the same
freedom one enjoys.  Even a megacorp would be hard-pressed to get
around that.

[re: a plethora of platforms]

> How else will manufacturers differentiate their products?

How do screwdriver manufacturers differentiate their products?  How do
toilet paper manufacturers do it?  They don't, to a great extent--it's
all a marketing game, a sport of brand management.  But the products
are identical: a screwdriver drives screws, and toilet paper does its
job, regardless of manufacturer.  How does the manufacturer of feet
and miles market its product?  Answer: it doesn't--feet and miles are
standards.  Screwdrivers and toilet paper are standards.  And,
eventually, so too will computers be.

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Far be it from me to question your stupid civilisation or dumb customs.
                                                                 --Fry

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 17:57:19 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Schwartz)
Date: Sat Aug 31 16:57:19 2002
Subject: [TML] Further thought on turrets
In-Reply-To: <B99693B0.6BB57%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020831194639.03ad7d00@mail.comcast.net>

>
>Perhaps, for redundancy, I have several large lasers in the hull.  Their
>output is combined into a single beam (at the 'combiner') then fed into the
>laser 'manager' where they are split off and routed to individual turrets as
>the computer and the fire control officer deem necessary.
>
>Perhaps it is design philosophy.  With a single central laser serving
>multiple turrets,



>One can also look at missiles in a different way.  Why put them in turrets?
>They're steerable and programmable. Why not have a missile launcher that
>fires from, say, the waits of the ship.  After launch, missiles correct
>orientation and 'light up'.  Now my launcher is again buried safely under
>armor instead of sitting vulnerable in an external turret.  The same for
>sand casters.
>
>Any thoughts/comments?

That concept sounds really sweet.

Sandcasters might require some work - instead of just a canister, there 
would be a short range missile type drive on it to position it between the 
defender and the enemy....

But the ability to dynamicaly re-allocate laser fire would be really 
useful. Even if you can't combine three beams into one high powered one, 
you could fire three pulses out of the same emitter.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 18:02:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 31 17:02:05 2002
Subject: [TML] turret maintenance
Message-ID: <200209010001.NZA01321@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Jeff Schwartz says
>X-Rays are (IIRC) deflected by magnetic fields. 

Not possible.

X-rays can be reflected by suitable materials, but not 
without the reflector being eventually vaporized (at weapon 
power flux levels).

Beryllium is used as an x-ray reflector in nuclear weapons.

One might make a plasma mirror - but it's the ions that would 
reflect the x-rays, not the magnetic field.
________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 18:15:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Matthew W. Helton)
Date: Sat Aug 31 17:15:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Further thought on turrets
In-Reply-To: <B99693B0.6BB57%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <000001c2514c$8adabab0$d800a8c0@sulacomk2>

RE: Why not put the missile in the waist of the ship...

An Excellent point: I would envision more of a Submarine TDU (trash
dispenser unit) type ejector, the missiles would be ejected, then they
would orient themselves and fire.

Anime Moment: Imagine this as a bunch of canisters being ejected free of
the ship, then going active and swarming to their targets.

Your hardware overhead would be quite low...AFAIK it would be possible
(though not recommended) to arm the missiles and space them out the
airlock in a (desperate) situation.

Gaming Idea: The Party's ship has been disabled and it about to be
boarded...they take a missile from the magazine and a hand computer to
an airlock....




 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 18:22:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Schwartz)
Date: Sat Aug 31 17:22:02 2002
Subject: [TML] turret maintenance
In-Reply-To: <200209010001.NZA01321@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020831201633.03ab48d0@mail.comcast.net>

At 08:01 PM 8/31/2002, you wrote:
>Jeff Schwartz says
> >X-Rays are (IIRC) deflected by magnetic fields.
>
>Not possible.\

You're right - I'm thinking Cathode Rays....

Apologies.


Although....

If you had a Cathode ray emitter, you could "steer" it in the inside of a 
sphere or panel in such a way as to emit a burst of X-Rays where you wanted 
them, right? 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 18:31:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug 31 17:31:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Further thought on turrets
In-Reply-To: <B99693B0.6BB57%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B99693B0.6BB57%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <20020901103005.C20618@freeman.little-possums.net>

On Sat, Aug 31, 2002 at 03:39:29PM -0700, Tod Glenn wrote:
> As I thought further on the implications of lasers for turrets, and podered
> the design of the Airborne laser, it occurred to me that turrets as we know
> them in Traveller don't make a lot of sense.
[...]
> Any thoughts/comments?

One you've already mentioned: a hit in the wrong place and all your
laser weapons go down.

Another is that the multiple weapon-grade beam paths are probably
going to take up more volume than power conduits.  They would also
have more surface area vulnerable to secondary effects, and it would
probably only take a minute amount of disruption before a beam path
becomes an internal explosion waiting to happen.

The advantages would depend upon the relative volumes of beam paths
and direction equipment compared with the volume of laser weapons
themselves.  It also depends upon one big weapon being smaller than
many little weapons of the same combined power output.

For GURPS in particular, a big laser is in most cases no smaller than
many little ones of the same power.  There is something that would
give many of the same advantages for GURPS lasers, however.

The standard turret consists of 3 lasers with energy banks capable of
holding one shot worth of energy each, and a slice of power plant
sufficient to recharge them in one minute.  However, each laser is
inherently capable of firing 30 times per minute if given sufficient
power.  So, put only one laser in the turret.  With the space saved,
add an energy bank with capacity for about 1500 shots.  This gives a
turret that can still sustain fire at 3 shots per minute indefinitely,
but can also fire up to ten times that rate for an hour if needed.

Furthermore, there is no inherent reason why the energy banks can't be
aggregated into a few larger central banks that supply the whole ship.
These banks would normally be fully charged between battles, and would
give more flexibility in operation.


Someone was earlier asking if anyone uses a Star-Trek like allocation
of energy?  This would give much of the same feel, I suspect.
However, it would be allocation of a resource that would normally be
depleted in battle faster than you can recharge it.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 18:35:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug 31 17:35:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: deckplans -- 200 ton merchant transport vessel
In-Reply-To: <200208312246.NYY00695@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
References: <200208312246.NYY00695@vmms1.verisignmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020901103244.D20618@freeman.little-possums.net>

John T. Kwon wrote:
> You would definitely have to have reserve air to run airlocks.

Why?  You can very slightly increase the pressure of the rest of the
ship if necessary.  Yes, reserve air would make it easier.


> And I can think of the bad things that could happen if the reserve
> air tank blows inside the hull.

That's one reason why I think it would be liquefied.  You have more
than ample amounts of both power and cryogenic equipment.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 18:39:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug 31 17:39:03 2002
Subject: [TML] turret maintenance
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020831194342.03ad1ec0@mail.comcast.net>
References: <f8.20d3f751.2aa29060@aol.com> <5.1.1.6.0.20020831194342.03ad1ec0@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20020901103505.E20618@freeman.little-possums.net>

Jeff Schwartz wrote:
> Lasers at TL 13 and above are supposed to be X-Ray, right?
> 
> X-Rays are (IIRC) deflected by magnetic fields. 

No, X-rays are not deflected by magnetic fields.  You're probably
thinking of electron beams that are often used to produce x-rays.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 18:56:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Jeff Schwartz)
Date: Sat Aug 31 17:56:03 2002
Subject: [TML] turret maintenance
In-Reply-To: <20020901103505.E20618@freeman.little-possums.net>
References: <5.1.1.6.0.20020831194342.03ad1ec0@mail.comcast.net>
 <f8.20d3f751.2aa29060@aol.com>
 <5.1.1.6.0.20020831194342.03ad1ec0@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020831205024.03aa84e0@mail.comcast.net>

At 08:35 PM 8/31/2002, you wrote:
>Jeff Schwartz wrote:
> > Lasers at TL 13 and above are supposed to be X-Ray, right?
> >
> > X-Rays are (IIRC) deflected by magnetic fields.
>
>No, X-rays are not deflected by magnetic fields.  You're probably
>thinking of electron beams that are often used to produce x-rays.

Yep, I was.

Bad Jeffrey. 


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 19:34:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Aug 31 18:34:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Halon?
In-Reply-To: <E17kpjp-0005Tr-00@fifi.runbox.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020831213304.02856008@192.168.0.1>

At 05:39 PM 8/30/2002 +0000, Beth wrote:
>Also the problem that Halon, when exposed to high temperatures, has some 
>toxic byproducts.  I hope that by the time of OTU there would be a better 
>replacement.
>IMTU it is Hivon 243, my own creation.  Use as you wish.
>
>"Hivon 243:  Hivon 243 is a heat reactive, fire fighting foam that can be 
>sprayed on to a small fire or the whole can tossed directly into a larger 
>fire.  When heated to 100C plus, the foam will expand, bursting the can 
>non-explosively, to cover a 10 square meter area with a flame suppressant 
>foam.  After 4 hours, the foam residue will break-down, leaving only a 
>fine powder.  Mass of a spray can: 350gm  Cost: Cr30"
>
>Beth

Ohhh...that's a keeper!


-------------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
Let me put it this way:
today is going to be a learning experience.
-------------------------------------------------------




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 19:46:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug 31 18:46:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Computers in Traveller
In-Reply-To: <m3ofbibn9i.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <B996BF40.6BB83%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/31/02 4:51 PM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

>> Especially as software is written mainly to make a profit and
>> deadlines prevent thorough testing.
>=20
> That's part of the problem: software is rushed out the door to meet a
> marketing deadline, rather than finely crafted over years to be
> perfect.  But I don't think that the commercial software world has
> many more decades to live--free software is too appealing.


That's not completely true.  But that is true of most PC software and
Microsoft and other companies have built their whole business model around
new releases.  I expect that critical software like that used to run
starships will be more in line with the old mainframe model, with
incremental releases that address minor performance issues or discovered
problems, rather than succumbing to featuritis.
>=20
>> Again, why assume that os's in the future are secure and bugfree?
>=20
> Thousands of years of testing each and every pathway through the
> code.  Hundreds of millions of eyes examining the code, looking for a
> flaw.  Billions of small fixes, each proved to have solved a problem
> and _not_ caused any previous problem to recur.  Test suites the input
> for which takes up more disk space than currently exists on Earth.
>=20
>> If that's the case, then the market for computers and software would
>> be stagnant.
>=20
> It'd be a commodity market, as all markets should eventually become.
> No problem there.

It will also depend upon who make the software.  If it's hardware companies
who don't depend on software sales as their principle means of income, ther=
e
won't be the rush to create a new version every six months.  At one time Su=
n
only released a new operating system every few years. In the interim there
were maintenance releases to address bugs and improve performance.  Sadly,
they seem to have adopted the 'new OS every year', taking their cue from
Microsoft.  But at least these upgrades seem to be evolutionary rather than
revolutionary -- more marketing hype than real rewrites in the underlying
OS.  An amazingly, this incremental approach has resulted in a very stable
and reliable OS. Then again, Sun is in the business of selling hardware, so
they don't have the same push that Microsoft and other vendors have to keep
pushing the 'latest and greatest' to maintain their revenue stream.


>> How else will manufacturers differentiate their products?
>=20
> How do screwdriver manufacturers differentiate their products?  How do
> toilet paper manufacturers do it?  They don't, to a great extent--it's
> all a marketing game, a sport of brand management.  But the products
> are identical: a screwdriver drives screws, and toilet paper does its
> job, regardless of manufacturer.  How does the manufacturer of feet
> and miles market its product?  Answer: it doesn't--feet and miles are
> standards.  Screwdrivers and toilet paper are standards.  And,
> eventually, so too will computers be.

Agreed. Look at the computer hardware, rather than the software.  One PC is
much like another.  Often, they share identical componants.  What really is
the difference between a Dell, Compaq, IBM or gateway computer when it's al=
l
said and done?  Not much.  They all run the same OS and applications.

The main difference is marketing, sales, support.  Thing unrelated to the
hardware itself.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 20:37:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 31 19:37:03 2002
Subject: [TML] turret maintenance
Message-ID: <16b.130a445d.2aa2d722@aol.com>

 >>> My view on beam weapons such as lasers and PB's is that the "turret" is a
 >>> flat patch of hull, and the 'beam" is steered onto the target in the same
 >>> way as phased-array radar works.
 >>
 >>> Nice and simple, no moving parts, no problems with pressure seals.
 >>
 >> Can light be directed in that manner?  Just how is it "steered"?
 >
 >Gravity waves, obviously :)

But in Traveller 6g seems to be the limit.  I wouldn't think that 6g would be 
sufficient to control a light beam.

 >For more low tech situations, just replace with mirror.

OK.  So the arrangement is that we have a laser generator sitting inside the 
hull, and the beam is directed through a hull opening to a mirror somehow 
suspended above this opening such that it will reflect the beam in the 
desired direction.  Let's see ... I'm envisioning a hollow bowl turret, 
providing protection and suspension for this mirror.  The turret rotates to 
align the turret discharge slots towards the target, and the mirror is on 
some sort of support structure (mechanical or gravitic) that orients it to 
reflect the outgoing beam through the discharge slot at the target.  Good so 
far?

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 20:42:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Mark Urbin)
Date: Sat Aug 31 19:42:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Knowing and doing
In-Reply-To: <003601c2514d$837575c0$1001a8c0@sauron>
References: <3D700A53.6090607@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020831224023.02155560@192.168.0.1>

At 05:21 PM 8/31/2002 -0700, Frankie wrote:
>Bruce Johnson wrote :
> > The joke about the Russian
> > nuclear physicist coming here top work as a cabbie isn't far off.
>In New Zealand it's not a joke.
>We have surgeons, physicists, and airline pilots (among other
>professions) from Eastern Europe, India, and Africa, driving cabs in our
>country.
>Part of the reason is that the emigrate over here expecting to be able
>to work only to find that our local profesional organizations/unions
>won't register them, and thus they can't be employed.

Same thing in South Africa. To practice medicine there, you need a medical 
degree from South Africa (or Cuba...).



-----------------------------------------------------
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/
"Whether you're Bill Clinton or the head of a large
corporation like Enron, it seems the best defense
in any legal matter is to act like you just arrived
on the planet." -- Spencer F. Katt
-----------------------------------------------------



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 20:52:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 31 19:52:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Computers in Traveller
In-Reply-To: <20020831235304.19680.99969.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17lKpX-0003p8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

ruhl@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>) wrote:

> [re: a plethora of platforms]
> 
> > How else will manufacturers differentiate their products?
> 
> How do screwdriver manufacturers differentiate their products?  How do
> toilet paper manufacturers do it?  They don't, to a great extent--it's
> all a marketing game, a sport of brand management.  But the products
> are identical: a screwdriver drives screws, and toilet paper does its
> job, regardless of manufacturer.  How does the manufacturer of feet
> and miles market its product?  Answer: it doesn't--feet and miles are
> standards.  Screwdrivers and toilet paper are standards.  And,
> eventually, so too will computers be.

Very much agreed.  Every piece of complex technology we use, 
from mechanical clocks and washing machines to computers & 
DVD players was new and wonderful once, and then it become 
commonplace. Computers are still new at our time.  The people of 
the Imperium have had computers longer than we have had bronze. 
They will be unexciting, ubiquitous things that are functional and 
(by our standards) amazingly easy to use.  I'm guessing computer 
brands and software brands will be much like brands of toilets and 
sinks in our world. There will be superficial differences, but 
everything will conform to a single standard.  The big differences 
will be the color of the case, the ever-useful brand name, and how 
reliable and long-lasting the unit is supposed to be.  

There will also undoubtedly be a large list of possible fancy add-
ons that different companies will offer in a variety of different 
configurations (ie SuSAG gives you a computer with software 
(since I'm guessing they will come as a unit) that offers a choice of 
retina scanners or voice recognition for user identification, while 
some other corp offers using identification that can involve either 
(user's choice) near instant analysis of a tiny skin sample or palm 
print recognition.  However, the actual OS and basic hardware will 
be as standard as rail gauges and screw threads are on our world.

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com   


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 20:56:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 31 19:56:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Phased Array Lasers
In-Reply-To: <20020831235304.19680.99969.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <E17lKpb-0003p8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

On 31 Aug 02, at 16:53, tml-request@travellercentral.com wrote:
Flykiller@aol.com wrote

>  >My view on beam weapons such as lasers and PB's is that the "turret"
>  is a >flat patch of hull, and the 'beam" is steered onto the target
>  in the same >way as phased-array radar works. > >Nice and simple, no
>  moving parts, no problems with pressure seals.
> 
> Can light be directed in that manner?  Just how is it "steered"?

You make a phased array laser (or radar) by placing tens of 
thousands or maybe even millions of *tiny* separate laser emitters 
all over one area of the ship (or if you want all over the entire hull). 
You steer and focus the beam by adjusting the wave form, not by 
moving the individual emitters (they are all stationary and do not all 
aim their beams at a steerable mirror.  

Phased array radar is in current use today (and is big news, IIRC 
Boeing recently installed one on a plane).  The differences between 
phased array radar and a phased array laser are merely ones of 
what portion of the spectrum you are broadcasting in.  If I 
understand these bizarre but real things correctly phased array 
radar beams can be made as coherent as a laser beam. You don't 
use any mirrors, you simple apply different amounts of power to 
different emitters in varying patterns and have them all broadcasting 
at the same frequency.  Yes, this is *really* weird, it is also being 
used now. It also seem to me to be by far the most sensible way 
for Traveller Lasers to work, especially since TL13+ X-Ray lasers 
would be almost impossible to steer in any other fashion.  

Despite the fact that there are many tiny emitters, a phased array 
laser does not produce zillions of little beams - it produces one 
beam, or two or three or four, but not one beam composed of a lot 
of little ones- simply one beam, with a quantum wave function 
generated by the interaction of the thousands or millions of smaller 
beams.  This is serious quantum weirdness that I do not pretend to 
understand.  However, a google search on phased array radar will 
turn up a great deal of info (much of which utterly baffles me, 
despite my having a BA in math and a minor in physics).

-John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com   




From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 21:06:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 31 20:06:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Rotational production of gravity
Message-ID: <200209010305.NZG01409@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Someone asked a short time ago about rotation to produce a 
sensation of gravity.

http://www.bumply.com/2300/index.htm

is a 2300 page, but further on down the page is a link to a 
Javascript rotational habitat calculator. There are also some 
notes about restrictions on rotation rates.

Not bad.
________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 21:10:11 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug 31 20:10:11 2002
Subject: [TML] turret maintenance
In-Reply-To: <16b.130a445d.2aa2d722@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B996D29A.6BBA0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/31/02 7:36 PM, Flykiller@aol.com at Flykiller@aol.com wrote:

>=20
> OK.  So the arrangement is that we have a laser generator sitting inside =
the
> hull, and the beam is directed through a hull opening to a mirror somehow
> suspended above this opening such that it will reflect the beam in the
> desired direction.  Let's see ... I'm envisioning a hollow bowl turret,
> providing protection and suspension for this mirror.  The turret rotates =
to
> align the turret discharge slots towards the target, and the mirror is on
> some sort of support structure (mechanical or gravitic) that orients it t=
o
> reflect the outgoing beam through the discharge slot at the target.  Good=
 so
> far?

Exactly.  Just like the Airborne laser, essentially.  The turret can be
fairly small (a function of the mirror and wavelength of the laser will
probably determine the size.  One might even incorporate a 'pop-up' turret
that is only deployed when needed.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 21:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug 31 20:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Computers in Traveller
In-Reply-To: <E17lKpX-0003p8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <B996D48A.6BBA3%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/31/02 7:51 PM, sneadj@mindspring.com at sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:

> print recognition.  However, the actual OS and basic hardware will
> be as standard as rail gauges and screw threads are on our world.
>=20

There still maybe some variations, but probably not many.  In the same way.
we have diesel or gasoline engines, electric or gas appliances, etc.

In the unix world we have system V and BSD (technically linux isn't unix,
and we all know what GNU stands for).  Most of the system V derivatives
aren't all that much different.  Solaris, HPUX, etc.  In the same way there
may be minor difference in computer software and operating systems, but it'=
s
all more in the sense of a different flavor, and with the key elements all
the same.

Or it could be that the basic core systems is the same, but different
manufactures may have their own look and feel.  Think in terms of CDE,
OpenLook, Next etc.  All very different looking environments but all on top
of the same basic operating system.

Doubtless, some will argue passionately that one is better than the other.
But really, it's all just window dressing.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 21:27:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Sat Aug 31 20:27:02 2002
Subject: [TML] turret maintenance
In-Reply-To: <87.20b0f34f.2aa25b81@aol.com>
Message-ID: <005201c25206$ae6c4dd0$1001a8c0@sauron>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com]On Behalf Of Flykiller@aol.com
> Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 10:49 AM
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: [TML] turret maintenance
>
>
>  >Might want to think about how the turrets are accessed
>  >during flight for maintenance, repair and manual control.
>  >They ought to be on an outboard bulkhead with people
>  >on the other side of it.
>
> Now there's an interesting subject.  Just how are turrets
> designed so that
> they can be accessed while in a vaccuum?  Do you envision
> them as a hollow
> shell, like a tank turret, that are nothing more than a
> rotating bulge on the
> pressure hull?  I'm not sure I can envision a decent air seal
> on that.

Star Wars, the Millenium Falcon.
The turret moves on the outside of the hull, the gunner moves on the
inside of the hull.
There is no mechanical connection between the turret and the gunner.

Alternatively, the ring of the turret is sealed. Sealed rotating rings
are a neccessity for space stations and spaceships without artificial
gravity, so the technology for this should be pretty good by the Third
Imperium.

> Or are they a structure independent of the pressure hull, rotating on
an
> external pivot or track?

The track idea is cool. I like the idea of ordering "bring all guns to
bear, and watcjing all the turrets zip like a monorail to one side of
the ship.
Probably not a very good idea "in real life" though.

> If they are, then just how would
> you access them from inside the pressure hull?
> By aligning a pressure hull
> hatch and a  turret hatch?

I'd say any turret would be sealed off the from the main ship once the
gunner was inside, even if competely fixed.

Heck, at battle stations, all bulkhead doors should be closed.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 21:33:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 31 20:33:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: deckplans -- 200 ton merchant transport vessel
Message-ID: <93.228f5620.2aa2e461@aol.com>

 >>Except for my own designs, never once have I seen a deckplan 
 >>or tonnage allocation that provided for reserve air.  It 
 >>would be interesting to see how much tonnage would have to 
 >>be devoted to reserve air sufficient to recharge a 
 >>vented engineering space on a given ship.  Say, 14psi to 
 >>1400psi -- 100 to 1?
 >
 >I would think that some of that 4 dTons/person is life 
 >support, reserve air - but how much?  You would definitely 
 >have to have reserve air to run airlocks.

If you lay out a stateroom deckplan it becomes obvious right away that things 
in there are crowded.  If there is any life-support equipment in staterooms 
then it must be in the overhead, with a max of 200ft3 or so if you accept a 
very low ceiling and greatly reduced personal effects space.  This machinery 
would have to include CO and CO2 scrubbers, CO and CO2 holding tanks or 
discharge systems, O2 generators or CO2 to O2 converters, large contamination 
filters and electrostatic separators (for the occassional disaster), 
contamination holding tanks, pumps, and compressors at a minimum.  This 
doesn't account for waste water reclaimation (which must be there).  It also 
doesn't account for the machinery necessary for the ventilation of the rest 
of the ship, such as engineering and the bridge, nor does it account for any 
other ship's piping or electrical conduit passing through.  I don't think 
there's enough room up there for any significant reserve air tanks, certainly 
not enough to recharge a vented engineering space (typically the largest) 
(not to mention the maintenance nightmare this would represent).

 >And I can think of the bad things that could happen if the 
 >reserve air tank blows inside the hull.

So can I.  But bad things will happen more often if you don't have reserve 
air.

You can keep it in its own pressure hull.  If it leaks or ruptures you can 
vent the overpressure with a relief valve.  For that matter you can put 
several such relief valves anywhere.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 21:43:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 31 20:43:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: deckplans -- 200 ton merchant transport vessel
Message-ID: <15e.1328cba4.2aa2e6b8@aol.com>

 >> Except for my own designs, never once have I seen a deckplan or
 >> tonnage allocation that provided for reserve air.
 >
 >In MTU, there is ample reserve oxygen in the fuel tanks,

You keep O2 next to H2?

 >So separate air tankage space is not necessary.

Water refinement would be a good source of O2, but that's not the problem.  
The problem is if and where it is kept.  If you keep it in the fuel tanks 
then that means some of your fuel tanks are not carrying fuel but O2, which 
means you have separate air tankage displacing fuel tankage.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 21:47:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug 31 20:47:05 2002
Subject: [TML] turret maintenance
In-Reply-To: <B99688B5.6BB0D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B99688B5.6BB0D%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m3y9am9xyo.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> 
> For more low tech situations, just replace with mirror.

Is it possible to use a mirror with a Traveller weapons-grade laser (I
understand that the ABL uses 'em, but that's fairly weak compared to a
Traveller laser, I'd think)?  If so, why are lasers even used as
weapons--every ship in the galaxy would be polished to a mirror
shine, and impossible to damage.

IIRC reflec does not provide perfect protection against a laser--what
would protect the aiming mirror from the beam?

-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
`We _must_ implement multi-processor object-oriented Java-based
client-server technologies immediately!'
`You know, FORTRAN and slide rules put men on the moon and got them
back safely multiple times.'                         --Matt Roberds

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 21:51:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 31 20:51:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: deckplans -- 200 ton merchant transport vessel
Message-ID: <36.2ce20365.2aa2e7ec@aol.com>

 >>  It would be interesting to see how much tonnage would have to be
 >> devoted to reserve air sufficient to recharge a vented engineering
 >> space on a given ship.  Say, 14psi to 1400psi -- 100 to 1?
 >
 >Since cryogenic equipment is already in place (for storing LHyd), I
 >suspect that any reserve air would be stored in liquid form at more
 >like 800:1 volume.

That's a good point.

But say you were to vent engineering, and then quickly recharge it from a 
liquid air tank.  What would be the temperature of that air?  Seems to me it 
would be very low.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 21:55:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Frankie)
Date: Sat Aug 31 20:55:12 2002
Subject: [TML] Computers in Traveller
In-Reply-To: <m3ofbibn9i.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <005a01c2520a$3fc87e90$1001a8c0@sauron>

Robert Uhl wrote :
<snip>
> Well, one has no choice: if one redistributes GPLed software, one
> _must_ distribute the source as well, and allow the users the same
> freedom one enjoys.

Minor nit.

If you use GPL code, you must provide _access_ to the source of the
GPL'd bit of your software _on_request_. This can be as simple as
mailing someone the URL of the web site you downloaded it from if that
site has the source.

You don't have to _distribute_ the source, and you don't have to provide
access
to all of your code, only the stuff that is GPL'd.

> [re: a plethora of platforms]
> > How else will manufacturers differentiate their products?
> How do screwdriver manufacturers differentiate their products?  How do
> toilet paper manufacturers do it?  They don't, to a great extent--it's
> all a marketing game, a sport of brand management.

I suggest you examine the market for screwdrivers and toilet paper.

There are a huge number of differentiators in both markets.

In screwdrivers, you go from premium screwdrivers such as those produced
by Snap-On, where you only have to buy one screwdriver of a particualr
type in your entire life, as they will replace it if it ever breaks or
wears out, all the way down to the cheap Taiwanese shit-metal product
that might get you through assembling a piece of kitset furniture
without losing it's edge or breaking if you're lucky.

Surprisingly perhaps, there is still a market for the crappy
screwdrivers.

I suspect there will still be a market for crappy software.

But it probably won't be being used on starships, except perhaps on that
Far Trader whose Captain can't afford the yearly license fee for the
good stuff.

And remember, even if the software itself is free, maintenance and
tuning of a complex software system such as that usaed to control a
starship, is something your average free trader crew is unlikley to be
able to perform.

> How does the manufacturer of feet and miles market
> its product?  Answer: it doesn't--feet and miles are
> standards.

Nope, feet and miles are measurments of distance, not standards

There are standards which define what the length of a standard mile or a
stadard foot are though.

And, BTW, I know people who manufacture using the mile as the measurment
of their product, and I also know a guy who manufactures feet. By hand.
<grin>

> Screwdrivers and toilet paper are standards.

Nope, they are products. There may be standards to which some
toiletpaper and screwdrivers adhere (I know there is a milspec somewhere
for both products) but there is a difference between the standard and a
product made to meet the standard.

> And, eventually, so too will computers be.

They already are. There is the Posix standard.
There is the GCCS standard for government computing. There are numerous
such standards worldwide

Again, you are mistaking products claiming to a meet a standard with the
standard itself.

Frankie



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 21:59:31 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>)
Date: Sat Aug 31 20:59:31 2002
Subject: [TML] Computers in Traveller
In-Reply-To: <B996BF40.6BB83%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
References: <B996BF40.6BB83%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <m3u1la9xhm.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
>
> I expect that critical software like that used to run starships will
> be more in line with the old mainframe model, with incremental
> releases that address minor performance issues or discovered
> problems, rather than succumbing to featuritis.

Exactly--and that sort of software model is almost certainly going to
be free software (not free as in price, obviously).  A ship will have
a problem, it pilot/mechanic/programmer will fix it and submit the
patch.  I don't see much of a market for custom-written steering
controls:-)

[re: Solaris]

> An amazingly, this incremental approach has resulted in a very
> stable and reliable OS.

Yup.  I was surprised when I found that 2.8 runs 2.7 binaries
apparently without flaw (ssh, sudo, emacs--that sort of thing); the
transition from 2.6 to 2.7 was much more painful.

> Agreed.  Look at the computer hardware, rather than the software.
> One PC is much like another.

My opinion is that, just as chips were once expensive things which one
custom-wired into a one's architecture, then architectures were
expensive, proprietary things, so too the OS--currently expensive and
proprietary--is slowly becoming a commodity.  Concurrently, we're
seeing the operating environment undergoing commoditisation.
Eventually, desktop software will be a commodity.  I expect this to
happen within my lifetime--at the rate I'm going, before I have
children.

By the Far Future, I don't think that there's going to be much of a
proprietary software market.  Even custom work, I think, will consist
mostly of stringing together various centuries-old libraries in order
to solve a problem.
 
-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>
Science has sometimes been said to be opposed to faith, and inconsistent
with it.  But all science, in fact, rests on a basis of faith, for it
assumes the permanence and uniformity of natural laws--a thing which
can never be demonstrated.                           --Tyron Edwards

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 22:04:12 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 31 21:04:12 2002
Subject: [TML] turret maintenance
Message-ID: <200209010358.NZI01209@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Robert Uhl asks
>what would protect the aiming mirror from the beam?

A pointing mirror for a deuterium flouride laser (or even a 
DF overtone laser) or a chlorine-iodine-oxygen laser varies 
from 4 to 20 meters in diameter, depending on several 
parameters (desired range, wavelength of laser, fluence 
level).

The spot size is what protects the mirror from damage.  The 
power is spread out over the area of the mirror.  On the 
other hand, the target should get a small spot roughly 20 cm 
in diameter or less (ideally, this should be as small as can 
be technologically achieved).  

Currently, the lasers in our immediate future seem to be 
limited to 6,000 to 10,000km effective range. 
 
________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 22:08:16 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Bruce Johnson)
Date: Sat Aug 31 21:08:16 2002
Subject: [TML] You know...maybe we won't have to actually go to Cymbeline...
Message-ID: <71BF32CD-BD5F-11D6-AA12-000502884755@pharmacy.arizona.edu>

<http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992732>

"A self-organising electronic circuit has stunned engineers by turning 
itself into a radio receiver."

"Dayo! Daaaayo!"

;-)
--
Bruce Johnson

Wherever you go, there you are.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 22:13:04 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sat Aug 31 21:13:04 2002
Subject: [TML] Computers in Traveller
References: <F196Danp0yA0FojonDU00001d82@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D7193F3.5000805@usisp.com>

>  Most markets in the Traveller universe seems to be stagnant. 

    Then there is no hope of advancing in tech levels.


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 22:19:07 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Patrik Holmstrm)
Date: Sat Aug 31 21:19:07 2002
Subject: [TML] turret maintenance
Message-ID: <F134XxYoCT71Eodfx5N000082de@hotmail.com>


Robert Uhl wrote:
>Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> >
> > For more low tech situations, just replace with mirror.
>
>Is it possible to use a mirror with a Traveller weapons-grade laser (I
>understand that the ABL uses 'em, but that's fairly weak compared to a
>Traveller laser, I'd think)?

It might be for visuel or near visual wavelength. You would probably have to 
use large mirrors for high energy lasers though.

>If so, why are lasers even used as
>weapons--every ship in the galaxy would be polished to a mirror
>shine, and impossible to damage.

Some arguments agains that may or may not apply.

* The laser mirror is much smaller than the entire hull so more effort/cost 
(cooling systems, material quality, complexity, maintanace) can be put into 
it.

* The laser mirror should be completely protected from the elements (solar 
wind, particles, atmoshere, dust etc). Any damage to the mirror (like a dust 
particle, a thumb print, etc) the should result in heavy damage if a laser 
strikes that spot.

* Traveller lasers usually seems to have mirrors that have a diameter of 
several meters while the laser spot is assumed to have a diameter of 1 cm. 
That is a differance of anywhere between 10'000 (1 m) to more than 100'000 
(~3 m) in intensity.

Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 22:25:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Tod Glenn)
Date: Sat Aug 31 21:25:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Computers in Traveller
In-Reply-To: <m3u1la9xhm.fsf@latakia.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <B996E488.6BBD0%webmaster@travellercentral.com>

on 8/31/02 8:53 PM, Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net> at ruhl@4dv.net wrote:

>=20
> Yup.  I was surprised when I found that 2.8 runs 2.7 binaries
> apparently without flaw (ssh, sudo, emacs--that sort of thing); the
> transition from 2.6 to 2.7 was much more painful.

Although I am running some 2.5 binaries on my own system, which is running
2.8.
>=20
> By the Far Future, I don't think that there's going to be much of a
> proprietary software market.  Even custom work, I think, will consist
> mostly of stringing together various centuries-old libraries in order
> to solve a problem.
>=20

Could be.  I wonder about this every time I try to doe some simple scriptin=
g
on my mac or PC.  STDIN STDOUT is such a wonderful concept for building
simple little routines to get a simple job done.  I wonder how much real
programming is happing when some PC used their computer skill to solve some
programming.  It may be that the average user in the far future has even
less understanding of their computer than the average user does today.  UIs
have become so slick, and the standards so pervasive that know one really
need to understand anything.  The computer has become another 'toaster'.
Computer skill is really only knowing how to look under the hood and do a
bit of prodding, or how to link those standard routines and libraries in
clever ways.  Real programming is for those gods at  level 6+.

--
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.=A0
--=20
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 22:42:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug 31 21:42:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: deckplans -- 200 ton merchant transport vessel
In-Reply-To: <15e.1328cba4.2aa2e6b8@aol.com>
References: <15e.1328cba4.2aa2e6b8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020901144134.A21368@freeman.little-possums.net>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> You keep O2 next to H2?

No, the fuel tanks are normally filled with water or ammonia.  Either
has more hydrogen per unit volume than LHyd, which means you don't
need as much volume and hence a smaller jump drive.

The H2 is separated out as required into LHyd and oxygen gas.  The
jump drive has a smaller dedicated LHyd tank which is kept topped up
by this process during the week of jump.  (IMTU, the jump drive needs
about 3-5% of LHyd at each end of jump, plus a steady stream of 8-10%
per parsec after the first)

If the current partial pressure of O2 is a little low, the "waste"
oxygen can be directly fed into the ventilation system.  As primary
tanks empty, some of them might be refilled with liquid oxygen if
desired (they still have cryogenic systems), or just vented to space.

The same basic procedure applies to nitrogen from refining ammonia.


>  If you keep it in the fuel tanks then that means some of your fuel
> tanks are not carrying fuel but O2

Only when the tanks would otherwise be empty.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 22:46:08 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Sat Aug 31 21:46:08 2002
Subject: [TML] Halon?
Message-ID: <E17lMYa-0005DC-00@fifi.runbox.com>

I think that you need to read the MSDS, section 4 Hazardous Decomposition P=
roducts:

"Thermal decomposition; BCF begins decomposing at temperatures above 900 =
=B0F to give free halogens, halogen acids, and small amounts of carbonyl ha=
lides. These by-products have a sharp irritating odor. They are dangerous e=
ven in low concentrations, can result in personal injury or death."

A small electrical fire is one thing but I would not take the chance if I a=
m in a confined starship during say combat or the middle of a jump that you=
r fire will be below 900 degrees.

Beth=20

> >  >Here-and-now, after the Halon floods the computer room, there's a who=
le=20
> >  >dance with fans to clear the place out before people go in.
> >  >
> >  >(Just as Halon displaces O2 in fire-fighting, hemoglobin is more fond=
 of=20
> >  >Halon than O2... which makes it bad ju-ju to be huffing.)
> >
> > http://www.h3r.com/halon/
>=20
> Better try *reading* the info at the URL. Halon is *inert*. It doesn't
> react with hemoglobin. Nor with much of anything else. It supresses
> fires by *replacing* the air in the room. Which is why humans had best
> *leave* the room before the halon system triggers.=20
>=20
> If you are in the room, you just need to get out before you run out of
> oxygen. Not because the halon has done anything to *you*, but because
> it has pushed all the air (and oxygen) *physically* out of the room.
>=20
> I've worked in a room with a halon systm...
>=20
> --=20
> Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 22:50:30 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug 31 21:50:30 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: deckplans -- 200 ton merchant transport vessel
In-Reply-To: <36.2ce20365.2aa2e7ec@aol.com>
References: <36.2ce20365.2aa2e7ec@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020901144351.B21368@freeman.little-possums.net>

Flykiller@aol.com wrote:
> But say you were to vent engineering, and then quickly recharge it
> from a liquid air tank.  What would be the temperature of that air?
> Seems to me it would be very low.

Don't you remember the "waste heat" discussion just recently?  Heating
up that air to any desired temperature is no problem whatsoever.  One
thing that all Traveller starships have in abundance is heating power.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 22:54:39 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Beth)
Date: Sat Aug 31 21:54:39 2002
Subject: [TML] Halon?
Message-ID: <E17lMbe-0005uD-00@fifi.runbox.com>

I am just someone liked it.  Please borrow to your heart's content.

Beth

> Stolen, borrowed, nicked whatever....
>=20
> Thank you great idea hope you don't mind me grabbing it.
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tml-admin@travellercentral.com
> [mailto:tml-admin@travellercentral.com] On Behalf Of Beth
> Sent: 30 August 2002 18:39
> To: tml@travellercentral.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Halon?
>=20
>=20
> Also the problem that Halon, when exposed to high temperatures, has some
> toxic byproducts.  I hope that by the time of OTU there would be a
> better replacement. IMTU it is Hivon 243, my own creation.  Use as you
> wish.
>=20
> "Hivon 243:  Hivon 243 is a heat reactive, fire fighting foam that can
> be sprayed on to a small fire or the whole can tossed directly into a
> larger fire.  When heated to 100C plus, the foam will expand, bursting
> the can non-explosively, to cover a 10 square meter area with a flame
> suppressant foam.  After 4 hours, the foam residue will break-down,
> leaving only a fine powder.  Mass of a spray can: 350gm  Cost: Cr30"
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>  Peter 'Zinzan' Scarrott
> peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
> IMTU:tc+ tm tn++ t4- gt+ ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so
> zh+ vi-       And life is harsh and rarely fair.
> "What do you mean, we can't increase speed? I could _fly_ faster than
> this heap of junk!!" - Ervmisbe the Droyne. - David "Hyphen"
> Jaques-Watson
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> TML mailing list
> TML@travellercentral.com
> http://lists.travellercentral.com/mailman/listinfo/tml
>=20

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 22:59:28 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (tml@travellercentral.com)
Date: Sat Aug 31 21:59:28 2002
Subject: [TML] turret maintenance
Message-ID: <10.24444686.2aa2f73e@aol.com>

 >> OK.  So the arrangement is that we have a laser generator sitting inside 
the
 >> hull, and the beam is directed through a hull opening to a mirror somehow
 >> suspended above this opening such that it will reflect the beam in the
 >> desired direction.  Let's see ... I'm envisioning a hollow bowl turret,
 >> providing protection and suspension for this mirror.  The turret rotates 
to
 >> align the turret discharge slots towards the target, and the mirror is on
 >> some sort of support structure (mechanical or gravitic) that orients it to
 >> reflect the outgoing beam through the discharge slot at the target.  Good 
so
 >> far?
 >
 >Exactly.  Just like the Airborne laser, essentially.  The turret can be
 >fairly small (a function of the mirror and wavelength of the laser will
 >probably determine the size.  One might even incorporate a 'pop-up' turret
 >that is only deployed when needed.

Why would this be preferable to an independent laser mounted in an 
independent turret?  Since we're talking future tech (handwaving all around) 
then the lasers are small enough yet sufficiently powerful to do the job from 
a turret, and such an arrangement would be quite a bit more resistant to 
battle damage, requiring only a power source to function instead of an entire 
power - generator - multiple mirrors train of transmission, all of it open to 
vaccuum (I assume).  The arrangement you describe sounds like it would take 
up quite a bit of space, and would still require turrets to mount the mirrors.

Great site at http://www.airbornlaser.com, by the way.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 23:08:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Timothy Little)
Date: Sat Aug 31 22:08:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Phased Array Lasers
In-Reply-To: <E17lKpb-0003p8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
References: <20020831235304.19680.99969.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com> <E17lKpb-0003p8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20020901150722.C21368@freeman.little-possums.net>

sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> Despite the fact that there are many tiny emitters, a phased array
> laser does not produce zillions of little beams - it produces one
> beam, or two or three or four, but not one beam composed of a lot of
> little ones- simply one beam, with a quantum wave function generated
> by the interaction of the thousands or millions of smaller beams.
> This is serious quantum weirdness that I do not pretend to
> understand.

Not really quantum weirdness -- just typical wave behaviour, with
constructive and destructive interference.  The same sort of thing
applies to water and sound waves as well.


You can think of each emitter as radiating a small waveform equally in
all directions.  In the desired direction, the arriving waves are all
in phase, so that the 'peaks' and 'troughs' all coincide.  When you
add them all together, you get a very big wave in that direction.

Intensity is proportional to the square of amplitude, so 1000 emitters
in step produce a wave a million times more powerful than any
individual radiator in that direction.

In other directions, the finite speed of light means that they can't
all be in step.  The peaks from some of the radiators coincide with
troughs from others.  So in other directions, you have a much weaker
wave.


There are some complications for emitters that are closer together
than a wavelength or so, but that's the general idea.


- Tim

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 23:17:02 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (John T. Kwon)
Date: Sat Aug 31 22:17:02 2002
Subject: [TML] Phased Array Lasers
Message-ID: <200209010515.NZK02217@vmms1.verisignmail.com>

Timothy Little says
>Intensity is proportional to the square of amplitude, so 
>1000 emitters in step produce a wave a million times more 
>powerful than any individual radiator in that direction.

We're good as long as this is a phase conjugate laser, in 
other words, they're all in step like you say.

If they aren't in step, you've got a fancy flashlight...
________________
The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, 
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit 
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, 
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 23:36:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Angus McDonald)
Date: Sat Aug 31 22:36:03 2002
Subject: [TML] How fast is my base spinning
Message-ID: <OF670541D5.ACE03478-ONCA256C27.000D5CAF@dnsalias.com>

Have a look at Space Future's artifical gravity explanation 

http://www.spacefuture.com/archive/ar=



It will give you some nasty ideas of things that can go wrong =
--- from ---
Angus McDonald
www.falkayn.co=
=

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 23:39:43 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Angus McDonald)
Date: Sat Aug 31 22:39:43 2002
Subject: [TML] Further thought on turrets
Message-ID: <OF94940526.CAD13FE3-ONCA256C27.00199181@dnsalias.com>

One possible point, many weapons in Traveller are added to a ship aft=
er it is built. Trying to find room in the guts of a ship for a laser a=
nd then threading a line all the way to the external end point seems tediou=
s, perhaps some bright spark in the Imperium Naval Administration area deci=
ded to suggest a standard turret arrangement for add-on ordanance. Later, i=
t might have been cheaper to adopt such an approach for military ships as w=
ell ... or perhaps it just allowed greater modularity.

&gt;&gt;&gt;

Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>=
As I thought further on the implications of l=
the design of the Airborne laser, it occu=
them in Traveller don't make a lot of=
external steerable pod with roo=
external in the turret.


&lt;&lt;&lt;


--- from ---
Angus McDonald
www.falk=
=

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From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 23:44:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sat Aug 31 22:44:05 2002
Subject: [TML] The Emperor's Own
References: <20020831084103.4214.20383.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <005901c2517b$1f446b00$2bb18b90@computer>

> From: "Ken Murphy"
> [1] I'm right in thinking the Marines are working for Naval Intelligence,
> aren't I? Or do they have their own Marine-specific Intelligence service?

Hmm... Marine Intelligence... sounds like a contradiction in terms, doesn't
it? Unless you are talking about Dolphins or something...

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com


From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 23:47:52 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (Alan Bradley)
Date: Sat Aug 31 22:47:52 2002
Subject: [TML] Re: Knowing and doing
References: <20020831013703.25765.23944.Mailman@rhylanor.travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <005a01c2517b$23073f60$2bb18b90@computer>

> From: Bruce Johnson
>      "Remember...the PRI was the party of Pancho Villa; we'd already sent
> Blackjack Pershing roving into Mexico after him."

From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
>      After Villa and his men had robbed banks and killed US citizens in
> Texas and Arizona, but yes, we've treated Mexico rather shabbily.

IIRC, the PRI were a different faction to Villa - the guys that killed him.

His incursion into the US was _intended_ to provoke a US reponse. The idea
was that this response would bring about a wave of nationalism in Mexico,
which would favour Villa's faction. It worked!

OBTRAV:  It all sounds a bit Vargr, doesn't it?

Alan Bradley
abradley1@bigpond.com



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 23:52:03 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sat Aug 31 22:52:03 2002
Subject: [TML] Computers in Traveller
References: <B996BF40.6BB83%webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Message-ID: <3D71A9C8.9010907@usisp.com>

>
>
>>That's part of the problem: software is rushed out the door to meet a
>>marketing deadline, rather than finely crafted over years to be
>>perfect.  But I don't think that the commercial software world has
>>many more decades to live--free software is too appealing.
>>
    Software is rushed because a client who pays for it needs it by a 
certain date. If
the programmer cannot ship it out on time, then the client will go 
somewhere else
with his money. Free software is appealing, yet people tend to pay to 
not have
to deal with it. They pay 'professionals' to do it. Yet, how many 
problems exist
because of poor installs or bad sys admin. How many breaches happen, not 
because
of faults with a system, but dumb users? Nothing is foolproof. Fools can 
break
anything. Problems can occur even if the system is perfect. Except its not.

>That's not completely true.  But that is true of most PC software and
>Microsoft and other companies have built their whole business model around
>new releases.  I expect that critical software like that used to run
>starships will be more in line with the old mainframe model, with
>incremental releases that address minor performance issues or discovered
>problems, rather than succumbing to featuritis.
>
    How will future software companies behave differently if they want 
to make
lots of money? And why have incremental releases if eveything is so well 
tested
that it is perfect?

>>>Again, why assume that os's in the future are secure and bugfree?
>>>
>>Thousands of years of testing each and every pathway through the
>>code.  Hundreds of millions of eyes examining the code, looking for a
>>flaw.  Billions of small fixes, each proved to have solved a problem
>>and _not_ caused any previous problem to recur.  Test suites the input
>>for which takes up more disk space than currently exists on Earth.
>>
    Thats assuming that the codebase will exist for thousands of years 
without any changes.
Even a bug fix can introduce new bugs. What if the person fixing the bug 
uses it instead to
compromise a system?  It gets worse as tech levels advance allowing 
synaptic cpu's and
non-determinate systems that may give differing output in each test case 
yet still be correct.
Brains, organic computers, have been beta'd for millions of years yet 
there are still flaws...yes?
And these flawed organic computers are creating perfection? I don't 
thing so.
    Besides, there are published rules for bugs in software in ct and 
various published
adventures that require bugs in computers....can you say Kinunir?  If 
you like tne, this idea of
perfect secure computers spits in the eye of Virus. Besides,  buggy 
computers make nice plot
devices.

>>>If that's the case, then the market for computers and software would
>>>be stagnant.
>>>
>>It'd be a commodity market, as all markets should eventually become.
>>No problem there.
>>
    Computers might become commodities, but what about their inards? As 
long as
any manufacturer is trying to gain market share by increasing 
performance of thier
cpu's, gpu's, etc. As long as one company trys this, all other companies 
must follow suit
or go out of business.  A company could try to compete by cutting costs, 
and give you
poorly made boards and chips that crash for no good reason.

>It will also depend upon who make the software.  If it's hardware companies
>who don't depend on software sales as their principle means of income, there
>won't be the rush to create a new version every six months.  At one time Sun
>only released a new operating system every few years. In the interim there
>were maintenance releases to address bugs and improve performance.  Sadly,
>they seem to have adopted the 'new OS every year', taking their cue from
>Microsoft.  But at least these upgrades seem to be evolutionary rather than
>revolutionary -- more marketing hype than real rewrites in the underlying
>OS.  An amazingly, this incremental approach has resulted in a very stable
>and reliable OS. Then again, Sun is in the business of selling hardware, so
>they don't have the same push that Microsoft and other vendors have to keep
>pushing the 'latest and greatest' to maintain their revenue stream.
>
    How will this be different in the future? Will there be no company 
that depends
on software sales then?

>>>How else will manufacturers differentiate their products?
>>>
>>How do screwdriver manufacturers differentiate their products?  How do
>>toilet paper manufacturers do it?  They don't, to a great extent--it's
>>all a marketing game, a sport of brand management.  But the products
>>are identical: a screwdriver drives screws, and toilet paper does its
>>job, regardless of manufacturer.  How does the manufacturer of feet
>>and miles market its product?  Answer: it doesn't--feet and miles are
>>standards.  Screwdrivers and toilet paper are standards.  And,
>>eventually, so too will computers be.
>>
    They differentiate by quality of goods. Some goods will be as you say.
Others will be utter crap. Compare snap-on screwdrivers with oriental, pot
metal dollar store screwdrivers. Top quality screwdrivers can and do fail.
Poor quality drivers fail more often. Top quality toilet paper is nice 
and comfy
but can let your fingers poke through if you're not careful. Cheap 
toilet paper
gets @#$@%#% on your fingers unless you are very careful. With software,
we call failures like these bugs or security holes.

>Agreed. Look at the computer hardware, rather than the software.  One PC is
>much like another.  Often, they share identical componants.  What really is
>the difference between a Dell, Compaq, IBM or gateway computer when it's all
>said and done?  Not much.  They all run the same OS and applications.
>
    Each company has different reputations for reliability . This is 
especially true of
'commodity' hardware from smaller companies. Hardware, like screwdrivers 
and toilet
paper fail more often when it is cheaply made. And some will be cheaply 
made, because
the name of the game in business is profit.



From tml@travellercentral.com  Sat Aug 31 23:56:05 2002
From: tml@travellercentral.com (richard honeycutt)
Date: Sat Aug 31 22:56:05 2002
Subject: [TML] Computers in Traveller
References: <E17lKpX-0003p8-00@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3D71AAE0.8030205@usisp.com>

Conforming to a standard does not imply that the product is free from 
faults or defects.




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